So, before I begin with the formal presentation in this session I basically wanted to tell you a couple of things that one is you know when we so far in this particular course many of you may already have been teaching this course or intend to teach it in the near future etcetera. So, the idea you know that most of us have been having is to sort of you know share with you some of the you know aspect that we have been covering in the courses in the course that we you know teach in IIT Bombay. Now whatever I am you know presented so far is based on you know it is a brief you know part of what I have been teaching over the years as part of the annual studies course in IIT Bombay. So, there are you know a few dimensions that I have attempted to cover one is to begin so sort of sensitize the students we begin by looking at telling them that why do we need to look at environment. So, because you know economic activities are programmed all over and there is a link a strong link between economic activities in the environment that is why we are looking at it. Then we said you know since we are an emerging economy or developing economy so several other countries they are also in the process of development is important to understand how a different pathways for development can affect your environment differently. So, then we try to see what exactly is an ideal mix for based on experience of India as well as other countries and then you know thirdly we try to look at is it possible for us to you know get into or embark on this path of sustainable development. So, here again we try to understand the concept first and then try to see how exactly it is being done elsewhere etcetera. Then we try to see how it to operationalize sustainable development in an emerging economy like India that is what we saw yesterday. No, but entire thing also crucial depends on what is the role of government it is simply one of planning and formulating and then leaving it there or actually also play a very important role. So, when it comes to a public good like pollution or you know public utilities management etcetera government intend to play you know ends up in playing a very important role almost across the world. In that situation what happens what kind of role they can play that is exactly what I attempted to talk to you in the in the 4 noon today where we talked about various policy options especially with respect to controlling emissions and I guess if you are able to you know speak on some of these aspects pretty well with as a part of this course with your students they will get motivated enough to learn and also get sensitized and of course you have complete freedom to modify to suit your student requirement and the like and this also sort of by and large covers what the UGC wants from certain aspects. So, then what I am going to do now. So, what I thought is giving having got this opportunity and number of you may also be doing not simply teaching but also may be interested in doing some research and share some insights from what you know you have been doing or others have been doing. I also thought I will share with you some insight that I derived from my own research. Now where do I fit in in terms of this you know if you go with the nomenclature of the course outline given by the UGC you know in a corner they talked about what is called climate change. One of the important dimensions you know that has happened in the last you know two decades where awareness about you know climate change has taken place almost you know across the globe in variety of countries. Now what happens with climate change? Climate change do we call it endogenous or exogenous. So by and large although anthropogenic changes will also activities will also influence climate change by and large we take climate change as exogenous to the system that is something that is outside of the control of economic activity. It may have been triggered caused by the economic activity themselves of many countries in the world but we still look at it as something which happens outside the control outside the realm or control of the government or the policy maker or the you know various economic actors in different countries. So having said that but climate you know exposes puts additional burden of the people because it results in disasters it basically make sure that people are getting used to it exposes people to various extreme events floods or droughts for example. It also you know sort of makes people who are already poor and vulnerable more vulnerable then it also poses several challenges for people to have adequate adaptation strategies prepare themselves to adapt to changing requirements. This is not to say that you know people in India or other countries have not been adapting themselves because if you look at the farmers for instance farmers in India they have been very very adaptive to all the changes that have been changes in monsoon pattern changes in I mean rainfall pattern changes in seasons frequent changes in terms of temperature precipitation etc people are very alert they may not be highly qualified educated but still they respect they understand and they respond pretty well and it's not now it's historically they have been adapting to all this we may not have documented all this pretty well but how do people adapt when there is when the disaster starts when there are extreme events how exactly they react does it really help them to cope with are these adaptations you know practice better by people who are more vulnerable than the others or is there any difference in the adaptation strategy itself across the nation across nations or some of the things that have been going on ever since you know intergovernmental panel on climate change started looking at number of this you know through the working groups etc so I have attended some of this IPCC as well as UNFCCC meetings represented India in couple of these meetings and also been part of you know government team to review as well as you know discuss and prepare documentation India's national communication to unity nation framework conversion on climate change since 2002 I have been engaged in preparing the draft etc here so therefore based on the unknown but that prompted me to sort of you know even encourage some research college to take up this agenda for the PhD and some projects also I carried out in this so in the process I thought a few publications so I thought in addition to what I've been wanting to talk to you and wanting you to talk to your students also about I also would like to share with you people about some of the aspects of this the risk the search that I've been taking I have been undertaken and in case you are interested you can also take it up or no in case you think it's appropriate you can also introduce in an appropriate passion to your students so this of course I'll give you complete flexibility on that so it is in that light I thought I'll present this to you know what next you know 30 minutes or so then we'll take it up for discussion so what is that in store basically I'm trying to see we the whole idea is to sort of understand disaster risk reduction which will become major aspect now in many countries and adaptation and the whole inside that I'm drawing here is based on some cases we've also given idea how exactly we go about doing the search with respect to this now I begin by giving a quotation by abrumavid says while we cannot do away with natural hazards we can definitely eliminate those we cause minimize those we exacerbate and reduce our vulnerability to most that sums of most of the points while we cannot do away with natural hazards we can definitely eliminate those who cause it our actions what you think eliminate the actions minimize those we exacerbate and also reduce our vulnerability to most so doing this requires healthy and resilient communities and as well as ecosystems so viewed in this light disaster mitigation is clearly part of a broader strategy of sustainable development making communities and nations socially economically as well as ecologically sustainable so basically this is exactly what is being attempted and in number of places so this is what I thought is a very very useful quotation I thought I'll share this with you so keeping this in mind let me make a brief presentation about how do we understand climate change climate change has actually by basically a new dimensions disaster disaster risk has been there for historically for several years exposure has also been there for various events floods and droughts are not unknown to our economy it's also known to other countries also now they are there have been instances of famines and others in India even historically so the climate change basically now exposes at the new dimensions it was such a disaster risk exposure vulnerability of populations and regions as well as resilience now as a result disaster risk reduction risk management risk transfer all have become very very important so that is dimension how do we help people to transfer the risk how do they manage the risk how do society manage the risk and how do we help them to reduce the risk all are very important dimensions where research on climate change have gone about again people talk about two aspects here one is to adapt to climate change other one is to cope with these events so then they start debating about coping versus adaptation which is more important to cope with it or adapt it highly debatable so that's also very well established literature now there are a lot of literature on coping with climate change and also with respect to adaptation to climate change then they also discussed about extreme events versus extreme impacts events may be extreme but they may not have much if an impact events may not be that extreme but sometimes impacts are very very extreme so we make a decision between extreme events or sort of extreme impacts lot of research have also gone into these dimensions after doing that after understanding climate change with respect to each of these dimensions then people look at determinants of risk in fact rhythms of risk they say by law depends on the exposure as well as to vulnerability so the more vulnerable the population is and more exposed they are the risk is very high and the vice versa so then you know if we ourselves have started this literature with with this study and then several others have picked up on what it's called preparing a profile of vulnerability the profile is identifying the regions and populations which are most vulnerable also economic sector which are very highly vulnerable agriculture fishing for instance especially in the coastal zones of India then there are also coping and adaptation capacities adaptive capacity of populations and regions we look at both through the socio-economic survey as well as through digitally elevated model DEM etc we identify the risk and risk accumulation as well as the nature of the disasters in each of these so all this we try to see how exactly determine the risk associated with disaster now I mentioned to you about changes in climate extreme and impact etc and then impacts on natural physical environment so this is by and large looked at in terms of there are several scientists in India are you know working on this look at weather and climate events related to disasters documented very well over the years across different locations in India they also document you know activities like extreme events and the impacts of extreme events etc that is the magnitude of extreme events how much the damage they have caused they talk about changing landscape which is also very important here I would like to say in one of the studies we found out that you know what this so if you have anybody has seen this video of you have made by Nicholas Stern sir Nicholas Stern Stern review of climate change they said you know on especially on the east coast of India in Odisha changing landscape is definitely there because there are according to the you know 2001 census all the villages exist in fact we went by the report 2008 when we stepped we found that there are seven villages in one district Kendra para are completely missing then we asked the local people where where these villages are they said they showed us water called inundated in water the district collector had no clue that this villages have gone you know inundated by water so we asked them where these villages they said they should be there you must have missed it and then we try to figure out where these people have migrated where have they gone have they all got wiped out so they all spent all over so there is changing landscape that is also taking place climate change that we need to be definitely aware of then what are the causes behind the change that also something that is now well documented and are they short term or long term how do we act because how do we act for short term and long term do differ so that is also something that we always sort of think about and try to establish having said this we also try to see what are the changes in the impacts of climate events once you identify the changes in climate even itself then you look at the impact of changes in the impacts of climate events first change that we notice is in terms of human systems and ecosystems both source of livelihood how people live where do they live parka versus kacha housing several other aspects and changes in the ecosystems also the depletion of mangroves and others then role of extremes in natural and social economic systems how exactly they are affecting is it affecting you say making families more and more nuclear or is it really making a more and more joint family is extremely even playing a role we had looked into several of these dimensions over the years in the search impacts and relation to hazards is it just simply impact or is also how do you relate it to you know hazards that they are exposed to etc and system exposure and vulnerability and sector vulnerability are some of the dimensions that we have sort of looked into in the disaster selection next dimension that we try to look at it in terms of how do people manage the risk from climate events at the local level so there we try to say one is the entire community comes together and then brings in what is called community level coping strategies community coping so whole community becomes one and then they try to see how exactly they can some some of the literature also points out about people trying to migrate to other regions sometimes they migrate the whole family migrates already one member of the family migrates in pursuit of some employment opportunity elsewhere and these also survive based on the remittances there are community based disaster this management practices that is also fairly well known in India different regions in different locations people have come up with that how did different communities cope with say tsunami for instance in the on the course of Tamil Nadu so we will document that now there are also differences in terms of managing risk with respect to each of the variable like gender age wealth entitlements and the like where they differ so obviously those who are better off are able to take care of themselves better there are also social transfers that have been taking place micro finances played a very important role in helping people especially in restoring the source of livelihoods and we are also now coming to situation where we can sort of make people transfer risk this transfer is by and large done to insurance so the risk is now taken by the insurance company and not by the especially risk with respect to natural hazards then the we there some studies have also estimated costs of managing extreme risk it is not very low so we did a study cost of managing extreme risk with respect to the deluge in Mumbai in 2006 I'll also present to you briefly what exactly the estimate show so the next aspect is managing the risk from climate extremes at the national level so what is the local level like the national level when it comes to country as a whole we try to document what are the practices methods and tools used in the length and width of the country and document the best practices so that others can equally learn from it it's also important that the planning commission or planning and policies really taking this into account there are institutions, legislations and finance all earmarked for it there's climate finance available also legislations are being promulgated and institutions are created to take care of this my Ministry of Environment and Forests has recently been renamed as Ministry of Environment and Forests and Climate Change it is also created number of institutions which can trigger into this and the links between the national and local state local scales as well as cost are all estimated now all that are being measured now apart from local and the and the next level the managing the risk at the international level also started and integration across scales have also been taking place that is why this UNFCC IPCC meetings are all important where every nation gets represented for interaction so the policy frameworks and humanitarian institutions are all there playing what happened how did they respond to when there was a earthquake in Nepal for example Kathmandu international law and finance also address the issues of climate induced the disasters now there are technology cooperation and this transfer that takes place across nations and there's also perspective on links between local national and global is also really changing so people are learning from each of this experience as well as from around the world so everyone is now working towards a sustainable and resilient future so it is in this context that disaster risk reduction has assumed a lot of importance so disaster management team very popular very strong really required disaster risk reduction is again a team that really works on that we will also try to talk about adaptation documenting as well as informing people about various adaptation practices that can be done to cope with extreme events what is happening here is we have been having development planning for a long time coping and long-term adaptation have really got into the planning exercise only recently but at least they made entry into that so therefore development planning should also take into account these dimensions which are not really taken for a long time so eventually managing long-term risk becomes the responsibility of society at large as well as of the policy mechanism so that's exactly where we sort of go ahead and do this now question is is this really an issue how serious is this issue and where is this issue being done etc in most of the forums now we say this is a development issue it is not new it is not fresh it is not coming from elsewhere it is a part of your development issue like the A you have problems of poverty and unemployment this asker this reduction as well as vulnerability adaptation are all part of the development issue it is also an equity issue because what happens here is poor women and men in developing countries are the worst affected by climate change as several resources are pointed out although they are not they are least responsible for causing it that is why it's important that you the burden is felt by people who have not caused it and those who are causing it escaped without feeling the burden of it so the impacts of climate change are therefore already having an impact on women and men living in poverty undermining livelihoods and increasing weather related disasters and this sign will get worse over a period of time if it is not attended to so climate is changing climate change is undermining the sustainability of livelihood and climate change is overwhelming the natural resources on which livelihoods depend upon and climate change is also increasing climate related disasters so that is why it's important that most countries accept it understand it and then try to see how exactly what they can do to look at it so let me pose a few questions based on the research that we have undertaken so far the first among them being what do you mean by vulnerability who are the people who are vulnerable those who depend on climate sensitive resources and ecosystem for the livelihood like agriculture fisheries etc or people who are supposed to be more and more vulnerable because any climate related changes that take place it disturbed their production trading pattern now it also disturbed those who live on marginalized and other zone areas deforested hillsides flood plains flood plains urban slums and all the people we need to be worry about what happens to them in this climate change thirdly those with limited assets and political voice limited political voice to enable them to respond to impact of climate change also end up in having low adaptive capacity and therefore where all the people who are highly vulnerable so many studies have shown that these are the people who are highly vulnerable so something needs to be done to take care of them so already there's a problem of poverty now if further exposure to the hazards of induced by climate change they will be there they become highly vulnerable and if they do become highly vulnerable then it becomes much more difficult to bring them about the poverty line so oxfarm has given sort of a framework which could possibly used to understand so this is a very interesting scheme that's why I thought I'll share this with you where they talk about you know how exactly we can address how do we are the issues of climate change we talk about how do we build adaptive capacity how is vulnerability measured and what kind of circle so it's not a vicious circle in which we are caught in so one can move in the direction in which the arrow is shown so in order to sort of cope with it now now I'll come to number of the number of case studies that we carried out and the insights that we've drawn from this the first of the study we started in 2002 and then go and went around the country so in the first study we try to say that we are looking at which are identified the regions which are highly vulnerable and the kinds of settlements which are highly vulnerable so vulnerable regions and you know types of settlements that are there in the country we started by looking at the entire coast of India that is from Gujarat to West Bengal at the district level so what we find here is experience with the streams as well as specific disasters reduction strategy in each of this we try to document that now we were interested first in identifying the most vulnerable districts of India so we thought we look at the entire India was done by us first and we found that east coast in India is more vulnerable than the west coast so this was an exhaustive study we did only of these coasts and identified the most vulnerable districts of eastern coast of India we carried out by me jointly with one of my phd scholars Ulmesh Patnaik in 2007 the result show that creation of an index which create which takes into account the socioeconomic as well as climate factor we introduced you know we came up with a composite index of measuring vulnerability which is very widely used we are glad that we created this index very widely used of course by several researchers and with that index using that index we were able to identify the most vulnerable districts in terms of risk on these coasts of India we did not leave it there if you all i can tell you the three most you know east coast districts which are highly vulnerable where kendra para and orissa nallur and adhapadesh and nakapatnam in Tamil Nadu among many others have been sort of surveyed we continued to look at you know they to investigate the disaster due to floods and dars and then you know came up with this paper in 2010 where this will show that different cropping strategies found for flood and affected households form has already changed over to different crops and adaptation strategies depend on the geographical region of the household now what do you mean by this here this study was based on east gaurakpur district of uthapadesh and then we did some household survey of people living in regions which are either draught phone or flood phone same regions which are which receive these extreme events so we documented we narrated and also using the recall method we asked people how they cope with it we find that those who are near the water bodies in flood prone areas have different adaptation strategies than those who live a little far away but when it comes to draught it's a completely different story and one of the most important adaptation strategies that several of them have commonly adopted is by sending a person in the family to outside in pursuit of employment so they hedge again the risk of you know climate alert even through remittances from the member from outside of the location can all families do it how exactly how significant it is that is highly debatable but that's exactly how they cope with it because of very poor support that they receive from local government there in another study we found that we looked at the loss and impacts of flood in Odisha where we talked about you know what happens here with respect to the sea level rise we find higher losses recorded for households below poverty levels documented that this is for India's national communication to the UNFCC that we prepare we also said based on household survey as well as macro data in that region and we also identified the losers are higher losses are higher for households having kacha rather than for houses and it is the education strategies of households that help they have reduced their vulnerability so how education plays a very important role we I compared families which are relatively better educated members than others and documented we did a survey of households across number of villages in that region and found that those families where they have well educated members not necessarily the head of the family but also other members who have been able to adapt to climate events better than those who are let's educate them then we went we extended our survey and then wanted to look at some of the health impacts of climate change now when you try try to this is carried out by you know me in in in collaboration with one of my p it is called as Santosh Kumar Sahu and then we published this also where this we found that there's significant difference between the health and income inequality among sample households you know collected over number of villages in this particular district of Kedrapara so we find that climate related disasters badly affect the health status and hence on empowerment and income generation activity not many studies have really documented the loss of revenue loss in revenue to the households because of the health impact adverse health impacts of climate change because they are scared that this this will go up to a phenomenal number what we also notice that income from migration was a very helpful way to which households were able to cope on even the health of us so that's something that we need to definitely take note of then we move into the study that we carried out in Mumbai initially OECD organization of economic cooperation development did a survey and then they took data from the insurance companies and then estimated the loss due to deluge in Mumbai we were invited to listen to the presentation and comment on it when I give some input I said look this can't be done this way what happened is most of the losses that the estimator were based on data given by the insurance companies but since we have been living in Mumbai for long time we know the and I particular those days of you know staying in deluge in Mumbai we know that you know which are the colonies which are the walls which are worst affected the BMC has documented the streets and roads which are which were inundated by water for you know a number of hours so we basically said you know we also know that around this region there are several urban informal sector that are mushroomed many people have got their own household based enterprises so we would have definitely lost their belongings especially the source of livelihood how are they managing because there is no incident for them urban informal sector or unorganized sector so we said look we cannot really talk in terms of calculating loss only based on what the insurance data gives so they said why don't you do this study so we started looking at this and we surveyed large number of households and cottage in a you know in small industries in this region and now what we first found was the estimated losses from this is much higher than what the insurance companies are given the figures cost difference was more than 1000 crores that was very alarming for them what we found also the social sector in these regions especially among we have not it's very highly vulnerable informal sector is very badly damaged most of the activities were informal sectors etc but one good thing among all this is most of these enterprises have some studies have also documented we have also reiterated this follow what is called Japanese style of management or just in time production as a result they do not really keep large inventories why do they not do it they only collect the inputs that is required for one days or two days of production do it and then deliver then only they bring the next lot why do they do that because space constraints they can't afford to pay rent for you know large factories so most of them are having enterprises within the house or is in the you know within the premise of the household such informal activity you know which which is which is really mushroom very well using just in time production of what Tokyo Toyota has taught the world has really helped them to cope with it because the losses are only to between one and a half days of input or output of course the biggest loss is in terms of the machine if they are in and it is water for a long time so this is all mostly informal sector activity very badly damaged but still how long does it take for them to cope with it we did the estimation and then tried to find out how long will it take for them to come back to business as usual before deluge the average time if we take across all the sectors all the economic activities in the region was about 18 months 18 months time that is one and a half years it will take for them to come back to where they were a day before the deluge nowhere this was documented before our study came into being that is this is the kind of insight that we are supposed to bring in and tell the government look these are the people who need your support the most micro finance organizations are willing to come forward to support them after we publish this report so laws of employment health asset and laws of all the assets all part of the losses that they support and of course there are also losses to public infrastructure both of the studies both of the cases that in some of it what I put up I have not given any share with you all the studies but some relevant to the disaster is what I have given you care most successful risk reduction measures are most successful when they involve the direct participation of the people most likely to be exposed to others a top down approach doesn't work when do you start involving them not only at this time of implementation but in the time of planning itself in planning in decision making and operationalizing gives them the responsibility see how exactly it works very well it's also disaster its measures reduction measures work pretty well when the local leaders drawn from political social economic actors of society need to assume a primary responsibility for the protection of their own community all of them have to play an important role they cannot say it is government job and not my job the involvement of local residents in protecting their own resources is possible and can work if sufficient attention and investment is devoted to that's where we need to sort of respect the people to say also find the disaster reduction is more effective at the community level specific local needs to be met where specific local needs to be met can again it has to basically come in the level this when all the in the area is badly affected so government and institutional interventions often prove to be insufficient and frequently are seen to be sporadic and only responded to crisis because it's not simply crisis management it's not simply that we wake up only when there's a crisis it's important that we sort of you know as I said right at the beginning prevention is better than cure so we be prepared we foresee what exactly can happen where it can happen can't we really come prepared I think the hats off to you sort of satellite for the first time that country could face a big you know tornado that cost why is that caused last year when they migrated people from the region livestock's are also saved to a large extent loss to physical property can always be you know corrected over a period of time so what we're trying to say therefore say a top-down approach is inclined to ignore local perceptions and needs and it won't work people will not participate people not cooperate with you it also underestimates the potential value of local research and capacities in the process local resources and capacities in the process how to use local resources how to put them in place that can be done only when you plan from bottom up as a result it's not surprising that emergency relief assistance for exceeds the resources invested to develop local disaster reduction capability that's the demand for such reliefs are always very high and therefore the government also ends up expanding more and more because we're not really acuping people to be prepared to such extreme events now specifically what we have noticed that there are instances of community-based management so it's important that this we help them to develop indicators for forecasting and warning based on rainfall water level relationship of upstream and downstream gargings stations etc local just to be trained to develop plurals of maps based on actual observations and communities must be aware of the importance of disaster reduction from their own for their own will be it then becomes necessary to identify the and impart essential skills that can translate this government of the concrete factors of sustain this management so provide public information and education it will go a long way to help people cope with extreme events so an approach needs to be developed to act develop activities that can strengthen communities capacity to identify and cope with others and more broadly to improve resilience you know livelihoods etc that will work across several things so I basically wanted to you know in this disaster relief solution I thought I'll just share with you some of the thought I had and also based on the search that one has carried out over the period of time so again thank you for the attention and what I want to spend the remaining time is basically to sort of interact with you and what you think are the difficulties that you may face in teaching this course with the students specifically on that because they can always be you know discussion and debates and disagreements on some of the steps or methods or policy intervention etc but let's can we now since the whole idea is also to sort of you know together come forward to propose a model how exactly we can teach this course to our students so if there are specific points that you want to talk about about you know difficulties that you may you may already know that you are facing or you may be facing you want to pose I'll be very happy to take it up for discussion to start with what are the current policies available for controlling the industrial waste oh there are plenty there are plenty of environmental policies that we have with respect to emission norms with respect to right from the beginning of you know setting up the plant till management of waste azadus waste etc we have ministry of environmental forest and central pollution control board will give you details of all these policies there are plenty it won't be possible to cover all these policies in one course even one course so there are plenty there are big sufficient to control the environment waste well I don't think there's a you know paucity of policy measures in India it's all the policy measures of course we'll have to keep modifying keep modified and the change to changing requirements and situations but the problem most important problem we are facing is in terms of implementation that's where the bottleneck is thank you sir I want a clarification over how politics contributes towards environmental economics and what role it plays practically to improvise the degrading environmental scenario well unfortunately politics plays a very important role all over the world not only in India so political will is definitely important but I always believe that if you can make it if you know we can put in some economic sense into the policy making policy makers they may also relent they may also give say space and then they also will accept the need for it whenever we are doing cost benefit analysis for software project development yeah generally we have to take care of the environmental pollution but we don't take care of it so is there any law or something that we should care of it take care of it because when we've been analysts we are just calculating the profit and if the project is profit wise okay then we accept it and do it but if it is having some environmental hazards we don't take care of it so that that is my question I agree actually cost benefit by definition does not take into account environmental aspects unless it is specified so that is why may you know the governments are now insisting on environmental clearance where it is mandatory to do a environmental audit or environmental impact assessment environmental and social impact assessment so this data is getting translated into cost benefit analysis then you come back with a social cost benefit analysis so that is also getting redefined now in all simply cost benefit simple cost benefit is done for any investment project also so any portfolio management as well so what we are therefore now redefining and already several countries are doing is social cost benefit analysis many times in your slides you have talked about the vulnerability so I want to know in what way we have assessed this vulnerability due to the register how you have calculated this is there any matrix or what method you have employed actually we have developed an index so if you are you know interested in looking at it you know it's already there in public domain and issued for development studies in Sussex they have put it up in the website our the index that we have developed so this index was prepared based on the human development index proposed by Anand and Amartya Sen and following that we have prepared an index of vulnerability so we construct this index taking into account the climate relative variables alongside the socio-economic parameters so we compare regions at the village level or you know block level or district level based on the vulnerability index and on this we also try to superimpose the digitally elevated model DEM you have to understand whether this vulnerability itself is because of the location factor we must take care of abating all sorts of pollution such as air pollution water pollution oil pollution but considering the economy of our country which pollution should be even more important and should be cut well it you know it varies from place to place no because the places near tanneries are all where water pollution should be given at most important in Delhi today the problem is air pollution so wherever the magnitude of problem is very high we choose to attack that in that particular region so we can't have one size fits all so it has to be location specific the second question is because India is a poor country we must develop and if we want to develop then we have to destroy the nature and it will be to a very large extent also so in the long run do you think that ultimately we will have to depend on the gene mutation and for the survival of the human race sir i i don't i don't i don't know why how you got this impression that development can take place only at the cost of destroying the environment the entire attempt i have made in the last couple of hours is to tell you that it is possible to achieve development without destroying the environment we use the environment but we don't destroy it so it need not really be it need not be extinct it all depends on how optimally we use it for the right purpose so how can you reduce the risk that disaster is posed by climate change on agriculture with changing pattern of climate changes in land use pattern changes in cropping pattern are some of the thing that already been used by our farmers we have nobody to say anything more they are already adapting it and it's important that we also try to bring in crop insurance so that their their the risk is getting reduced to insurance so one more question sir how can we reduce the vulnerability that is caused by changing climate to our agriculture production yeah so that's what i mean even changing agriculture production is by and large we try to reduce is by you know crop rotation for example in one method that people have used in number of countries so agriculture gets exposed to crop rotation because which is not agriculture itself is become vulnerable is people who are dependent on agriculture are becoming more vulnerable sir our college is situated in Mathura district here the entire economy primarily that is dependent on the pilgrims the entire economy of the district is dependent upon the pilgrims so pilgrims that is increasing day by day that is going beyond the carrying capacity of the place and simultaneously economy is rising but it is definitely hampering the environment of the place that is the degradation of the ponds or the garden or the entire because a lot of deforestation and urbanization is taking place here so can you sir comment or suggest how to attain a balance between the economy and the environment for a place like where the pilgrims are the major component in this thing i understand and completely sympathize with you madam about the problems that you are facing in Mathura i can definitely visualize because you know i i came across similar situation with when i visited dhu recently what i mean i can imagine what kind of problem that they may be facing facing etc now see there is that's a trade off that actually we are talking about that is expansion of economic activity should can that take place only at the cost of degradation of the environment should it take place only at the cost of degradation of the environment easy question that we constantly ask ourselves but the answer to that is it is possible for us to restrict the degradation that takes place to the environment when the economic activity expands but how do we do it sitting in Mumbai i will not be able to give you a prescription but it's important that you involve your students in say doing a project and identifying a solution for that and then take it up with the district administration and see how to implement it etc i think if we as faculty members and students work together in coming up with an action plan the people in the government cannot ignore our voices but our study should be scientifically based how to continue the economic activity along with it i understand when in a place like you know in the pilgrim place like matura where most people come here for a for a day or so and then they may not really bother about the environment in that region and you may not have some of the best practices already there so too many people coming into that location it does disturb the situation so i mean one while you are talking about carrying capacity etc i don't know whether what is the carrying capacity how much whether we already reached that etc it's very difficult to sort of you know comment without doing a scientific analysis that's why i'm saying that please i i agree with you you must involve your my suggestion to use you must involve your students to carry out the joint study and then make the document available to the government so that they will be able to do something about it anything that based on scientific insights only we'll get a hearing today otherwise it'll become more a opinion rather than scientifically carried out research i hope i try to explain to you what my question on that is for my question is that we are talking many things about sustainability but is it practically possible because we are degrading to air water and soil is it practically possible of that of course possible also how what's your question how i want to know sir because uh because we are degrading to the environment and it is very uh we are degrading to air water soil all the things and another on another side we are talking about sustainability so both are fantastic no it is it is alarming it is disturbing but if we give up hope then who will have hopes for the country so therefore we'll have to have hopes and so that we can also in you know install hopes in our students and say how exactly it can be rectified so that's exactly what the challenge lies the challenge faced in you know people in different parts of the country are very different it is a global problem sir and it is in our country also we are i think in developing countries it is more problem because industrial development is going high and in developed country it is already there but now in developing countries also it is accelerated so now here also problem is created no if you heard me correctly earlier yesterday i said there is a problem in developing country but we can also use this as an opportunity to correct ourselves and don't have to follow the path of developed countries and land up in the same soup that they have ended up in today so there is a lot of opportunity for us to do learn from their experience and make sure that we don't commit the same mistake that they committed so i'm very hopeful that if you are open about learning we'll be able to learn and yeah my question is that what kind of prevention should be there while disaster management is to be done well disaster management you know see for example let me give an example did you look at what has happened in Kathmandu you know fortunately you know some colleagues were there in subo and university around the same time and the earthquake was taking place the university buildings have remained intact they're all shaken but nothing has happened now if you are in japan you know that earthquake is going to be frequent so you have to make your building at quack phone so accordingly you have to act that's the most important thing low-lying areas if you construct houses and then say tsunami has taken away my house it is bound to happen isn't it sea level rise has got my house inundated it is bound to happen therefore we have to i mean there's no one you know particularly we have to be prepared and plan accordingly in order to so we have to anticipate accuracy in anticipation and implementation is what we have to learn from japan the best country i have seen around is best practice is mostly in japan sir how to think about the tsunami when it comes and how to take the majors to cope up with it i don't think we should stand and think about tsunami when tsunami is there we should run to save ourselves okay no in a lighter way now what i'm saying is it's important you know i don't think it'll be it'll be possible for us to forecast or plan for tsunami but at the same time the way we sort of cope with you know vizag last year should open our eyes and then say that it's we have shown that it's possible for us to predict and then take care of our own people as well as i've sir we have been producing lots of products and services so my question is do we have any environmental policy that can promises any equal label on those services and products so that we can enjoy those communities without any concern yes we have green labeling we have system of green labeling which is insisted upon mostly for exports but high time we also start demanding green labeling for those commodities sold in the local market sir as you are talking regarding disaster risk reduction so i want to share one thing regarding disaster risk reduction so one of our students of disaster management we had done a beautiful project on tsunami disaster risk assessment how to identify the areas which are mostly vulnerable to this tsunami hazard instead of concentrating upon the reactive and post tsunami effects he had concentrated upon socio-economic impacts of tsunami mostly in the eastern coast region of India so Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu and Orissa these West Bengal so mainly these four states this i want to share with you sir and another one question from my side sir can i proceed with my question sir yeah please go ahead yes sir question is we are having so many disaster risk reduction schemes and if we see the central building research institute what we have in IIT Roorkee one center is there so we have so many soil engineering techniques or so many bioengineering techniques and environmental related techniques to stop this or to mitigate these disasters but really whether on real grounds how effectively these these things are taken care communicated to the low level peoples I mean what do you say the most effective most vulnerable people good this is what my question okay okay no i'm i'm very glad to know about your students research so i would you know request you to encourage him to publish the work so that you know people can read and become aware of you know how one can go about doing research in this area now coming to you know i'll be very glad to read if you want to send it now coming to how to communicate i think very important that we make the information available in all the languages of India it is not simply only in English or Hindi where available languages so that which people can read wherever we succeeded whether it is Andhra Pradesh or Tamil Nadu or Gujarat is is only where we have communicated to people using mobile phones radio through the local language that improve the confidence of the people in your public address system communication system how you just do look at how we succeeded in the rescuing saving people in why that last year only because of the communication network yes sir my question is my my perspective is so actually in India whatever we are concentrating upon is mostly on post disaster scenario and since recovery and rehabilitation scenarios than prevention and mitigation kind of strategies we are not more into the prevention and mitigation but we are more into rescue and rehabilitation and recovery kind of things even though we are very effective in recovery and other kinds of things like last time Andhra Pradesh the cyclone in Andhra Pradesh and cyclone in Vadisa so they were mostly mostly not know know any what is a life loss but why why why can't we integrate all these things in what you say in the reduction itself or mitigation techniques itself no see let me answer your first last question for that is you know what happened in Vadisa and Andhra Pradesh are examples of our preparedness our preparedness to face it so you cannot say it is exposed even even expiry is actually we prepared before the event occurred for the first time we succeeded in you know so I would definitely you know thanks to satellite from ISRO okay thanks to satellite from ISRO so one should actually be grateful to ISRO for that no as far as the mitigation is concerned it's a very very trivial issue so you know most of us don't want to really commit about you know too much about mitigation because there are a lot of costs attached to mitigation and we are not the only people who are responsible for what's happening so therefore those you know there's a debate about who should take the first step there it is those who already contributed to the destruction or those who are likely to contribute now so that debate is going on so mitigation is not easy and therefore I also don't want to jump into the bandwagon of developed countries want us to commit I don't want to commit on mitigation no as far as the preparedness concern I completely agree with you whatever we have to do you know to face the challenge that definitely we are doing but whatever bit we can do in terms of reducing the anthropogenic impulse change we should definitely try and see what we can do without compromising on our path of development yes sir why why I'm speaking that regarding preparedness you're talking about preparedness that I agree sir why I'm talking about mitigation why because example we are having river floodplain here so here so once the flood happens so what do you say the run ones and all all come into the picture and they'll try to save god the people evacuate the people and all but what do you say after map of the flood so and again the situation will become that's it will comes to the same state so all the floodplains and means we will be occupied by the spa people and all so why can't we have means we how in what way we can convert this mitigation strategies into economical strategies so as governments and all the other NGOs can come forward to take a part in this policy making and how can we make the part of what is it how can we party we make the participation of community in the in the disaster management very very good point there are two points you know one is how do the how do as we as a nation or economy can respond to this in fact if you remember in my presentation I talked about mainstreaming the climate change concerns and adaptation including mitigation dimensions in the development plan itself so so far the development plan that we made is largely dealing only with the investment decisions which sectors should get how much outlay and how they should grow where they should be located etc it's important that we address the climate change you know environmental concern into the mainstream development plan itself it we have to mainstream it we have been articulating about this for the last 10 years we have made some intro 12th fire plan talks about it but now it has been replaced by need I hope so hopefully they will look into that I again about community involvement I said decentralized approach is what we are having for planning so the community perception should be definitely taken into account I there is no disagreement on that sir my question is on disaster management is there any relationship between the borewell and the occurrence of earthquake and my second question is we have said about the buyer and the consumer now the Maggie product has been banned what kind of procedure is followed before sending products to customers and whether the specimen is taken once in a year or thrice in a year well between borewell and earthquake I don't think there is any relationship at least not I have not come across any relationship any study which talks about relationship between these two oh sorry about the companies no how frequently they tested before they send it to the market etc well you have been reading about what Nestle is doing no so they take consumers for granted I doubt whether some of them even tested so that is in terms of meeting the you know requirement foot standard and all that so there are you know established institutions that are supposed to be monitoring and checking all this so but we don't really check in terms of the environmental aspect is only the process whether it confirms to the environmental regulation is what we check as a role of the regulator one small comment I want to make to all of you I did the beginning said that I am looking forward to some comments or you know opinion from you people about what difficulty you think you will face in teaching this course to the students at least can we spend the next five minutes talking about that academically I'm not talking about administrative what are the academic challenge in you know teaching this course to the students answer it's about carbon credits so what is the status of carbon credits in India yes what is the status are we implemented the carbon credit system in our India whole India well it is sector specific no so carbon credits are available for people to earn but you know it is the trading in this which is what has been affected credits are still given so the second question is we have a lot of environmental environmental protection laws in India so are we implementing our laws you know are the governments are enacting those laws in preventing the pollution what is your perception what they no if only they're implementing so well then you and I need not have to worry so much no when we talk about the few actions from government of India or government of that particular state when we talk about the industrial development corporation they normally used to select an irrigated area or non-irrigated area to develop the industries and all but when we talk about the municipal corporations and all and they go for city development city development programs or city development schemes they normally select irrigated areas or the farmers agriculture area so what action should be taken from the municipal corporation or state government in this regard to prevent or to protect the environment let me give an example you know it's very important that you have raised a very important issue so let me give an example of what has happened in say in Maharashtra that I am aware of historically Maharashtra you know government through these development administration you know center have been training where the you know local civil servants are trained so through the center they've actually been training people even gone even you know panchayat presidents grants grants savings and others so at that level itself they're trying to imbibe the awareness and knowledge about environment what kind of strategy they need to adopt etc what is often happening here is if you travel around the country you realize that many of them take decision without being aware of what damage it can cause to the environment to the local resources etc so such awareness campaign the extent to which Maharashtra government has done I'm not sure whether other governments have actually done since I'm aware of the Maharashtra I'm just telling you that this development administration based in Pune has been really calling these people regularly and training them so they're updating new sets of people as well I mean old people as well as the I mean the various generations been constantly updated and informed about it that has really helped I give you the example of decentralized approach to sustainable development best example I would say is in this these two taluks upon the district Vela and Pune where they're trying to were documented how to go about you know involving the stakeholders and you know planning from the bottom up for achieving sustainable development that in that training is very required for the municipal corporation as well as for the local bodies etc you told whatever is required is okay but we cannot change that law means at present in present scenario anyways sir one more question I have as you suggested in our earlier session that is we need to go for the capital expenditure I mean study of capital expenditure as well as operating expenditures as far as environment is concerned environmental cost is concerned industry definitely we can yeah we can go for the numerical calculation as far as expenditures are concerned or applications are concerned but whenever we talk about the source source side or liability side how to go for measurement of that particular liability means say for an example water nowadays we can measure the water like water meters used to be there and all this so that can be that we can measure but what about the air calculation or measurement of the valuation of that particular air even the nowadays noise pollution is also there so how we can measure the valuation of that particular noise pollution so that we can reflect it in our financial statement so that we can control our the control the environment from the various disasters good point I have already said that if you go back to my slides on sustainable development measurement of green GDP how do we measure air water pollution etc the methods are already in place so it is basically the way I explained yesterday's class about the methods that are being followed widely across nations in estimating the loss because of this okay in most of these cases it is the cost of monitoring cost of administering the decisions which are taken as cost what you calling it liability whenever we think about the environmental audit means very well I have seen various environmental audit reports also environmental audit reports also but they are more over qualitative basis and not the quantitative basis so how we can convert that into yeah no I don't refer to environmental audit I am referring to estimation of green GDP imputed environmental cost it comes into this I am not talking about environmental audit that's a very qualitative what you are right I am talking about imputed environmental cost which we calculate in the estimation of green GDP we discussed that yesterday we have two questions sir go ahead one is we are leaving in the food half of Sayyadri Sayyadri western guts and this condition is favoring for growth of for teakwood rosewood and as well as sandalwood we suggested farmers to grow this wood teakwood as well as sandal and rosewood here but farmers are afraid of growing this once they grow this tree after 10 or 15 years they can harvest that and sell that and make money this is a government rule yeah after 15 years what is the rule we don't know that is more vulnerable that's why the farmers are afraid of this government rules and regulations any suggestions for this question see no no you see you must know that you know you must distinguish between guidelines and rules government cannot force people to cultivate what they want to cultivate they can only give incentives and guidelines as long as their lands are owned by private people they will take decision what to cultivate and let me tell you our farmers are highly rational in taking decisions many studies have shown we think that they don't know but they're extremely rational in taking decisions so as the soil been tested for it you have to scientifically if you scientifically educate them they will definitely get convinced come on board but if you're just saying saying it because of some vested interest or you know because of price concern and all that obviously they won't get carried away these rules and are highly vulnerable as government changes the rules and regulation also changes rules are not vulnerable but the policies are subject to a change with the people at the helm I don't think you and I can help that individual perceptions differ so government's perception also differ political parties perception also differ before they will definitely change okay thank you all and we enjoyed interacting with you over these five sessions and we again meet during the voluntary session thank you so much


Hello everyone Thank you Yeah, I'm a Leo. I'm from Albania. I'm a designer at uni Unis a network measurement censorship tool at the tour project so you can use it to see if there's any Website blocked in your region or country. I'm also a member at the open-lapse hacker space in Tirana and Yes, I met Jan and a few other open-source designers like two three years ago and Wow, there exists something like open-source design. I thought like This wouldn't be possible. So This is when I joined and like just one year later. I started Ura which Which is our own agency with open-source design values So the story was that Two years ago we we were organizing a conference in Albania and Our designers and media sponsors were asking us. Hey, can you send us the logo? Can you send us via email and it was very tiresome for me personally because I was doing that Myself and I was like exporting SVG's EPS into JPEGs PNGs into all different formats and it became very tiresome for me and I I met a guy who was like having this service It was called Randy's die and it was proprietary but And we liked it because like you could like host your own logos and in EPS or PDF and convert it into any size you like and you basically just Give the link to any any of your sponsors or whatever Designers and they they can download it and do whatever they want with them It was pretty expensive. It was like two hundred forty dollars a year or something three hundred dollars like that and and Yeah, they sponsored us and I was like thinking Yeah, this is very useful, but it was proprietary software and like one day. I got a newsletter Half a year ago and they said like hey brandy side was being acquired by brand dot AI So we are changing our roadmap and blah blah blah. Okay. Yeah, I kind of expected it's proprietary software, right and Because of this change I was like thinking we need to have something like that which is actually open source and Well, it doesn't depend on any acquisition or company changing its faith of the software and funnily enough just a Few months after we decided to build a new open-source software to do that and even more than that Invision is buying brandy ste and is killing it off and Next month in March brandy see will be that and it will not exist anymore So anyone who uploaded stuff on there, they will not be able to use it So it was like the best decision we did to actually do an alternative to that so Yeah Enter Identity up which is It's basically solving a similar problem So what you can do with identity up is that you have a project for example in our case It's Firefox where we also do have an open design community is in Mozilla and you can Basically host all your icons here As SVG files, so you don't have to deal with any different formats.  It's working as a CDN so what you can do here is for example, I go to the Firefox logo and Yeah, I want the SVG source file or I just want to link to the SVG source file so what you can do here is actually get the embed link and put that every anywhere you want and Later on you can update the exact SVG file here and it gets updated everywhere So we can basically do a rebranding of your project in the future without uploading new logos and new visual assets Everywhere, of course, it's automated. So we probably need to check manually a bit but it's it saves you a bit of time as well and Right now you can also specify If you want the SVG in any pain PNG resolution, for example, right now we have a 500 pixel PNG resolution. So let's say for example 300 You can add that as a size and download it right away So it just downloaded the same logo for me in a 300 pixel PNG So this has the advantage that If you go to all this media kits on different websites or projects They give you a huge zip folder with SVG PNG folders and different formats different color sets so this would save it because this would save time for a lot of people because there was a single source of truth and it's SVG and Yeah, if you want different flavors you basically go here instead of just packing it into a source file into a zip package The advantage of SVG is is because it's basically HTML and web compatible code So it's also code which is friendly for developers, but it's also vector, which is well what designers use going further On identity app Because we had a nice talk about fonts. We decided also with that we should be able to also support fonts So right now we only have support with Google Fonts This is going to be expanded with custom fonts later on But what you can do right now is that you can add a font By simply searching it on from Google Fonts So if your font is source stands for example You can select it here and select all the weights you want to use You want to well your brand represents and they're being added here automatically So this is just a preview So if you want to download the font it fetches it from Google Fonts And you can just download it right away here As a source file ttf or otf Same goes also for the colors Right now we have a color palette of the new Firefox UX And Whatever color you need you get the you get the hex code here soon We're gonna have also the cm yk Specification if you want to use it for print and Yeah, I bet it's it's pretty self explainable You can also customize It in a way of a style guide. So right now we have different sections here A section for every Firefox brand What you can do is that you can just rearrange them in if you want to have different Different and and fast emphasizing or Different subsections at all You can also use a description To explain what how you should you be using this logo Theoretically you can also add a what not to do section if you if you Care about that as well in the In the last section we also have general images Which is photos? So you can just put any png or jpeg as a source file so to speak So if you have a team photo And you want to represent your team with that photo You can put it up here and in the same way as with svg It gets Converted automatically to whatever you need. Of course, it's not vector. So you cannot upscale it but yeah Identity app is free software so If you So i'm tapping here in real real time So if you want to contribute to it, it's a it's licensed under a gpl. So it's a even more hardcore gpl Thank you, thank you So it's written in react.js in the front end and laravel php in the back end by most of the code is well in front end and The idea behind is is not like a fancy. Hey, you can host your brand over here, but it's mostly like to serve as a base for collaboration between designers and developers How you might say this would be possible is because like svg is the keyword here as it's a Something used by both designers and both developers. We were we are planning to do Um Integration with github so we can basically have your github repo and your identity app Project page sync together. So whatever you update on identity app will serve as a front end to be updated into your github repo And ideally also the other way around so designers who are like allergic to git can use identity app while Well people and developers who like mostly cli kind of stuff they can use it right from the github repo And with the update function of svgs you're gonna actually version control svgs So you can basically visualize how uh asset is changing visually for designers And because svg's code Actually developers can also see all the differences and change sets in the github repo So this um This is well the vision. It's not reality. Please don't get too too excited about that but um The vision is for developers and designers to collaborate furthermore together because We have experienced it as a big problem of a gap on how we collaborate And we hope that this will serve as a basis for um further collaboration and empathy and Getting on the same platform because Right now teaching designers how to use git and github Is it's a nice way of way of working together, but git is not Not really the best visual way of working So we hope to to create a bridge It's funny because ura means bridge and albanian the bridge between git and the visual aspect of design work So people can work on that Um, of course, there will be also user management So we're gonna have a project you can give different access to different people So um, you don't need to manage it yourself And also we will have web dev integration I hope towards the end of the year If you are not helping if you are helping it might be sooner, but that depends And so a young is working at next cloud So we hope that with next cloud we can have a web dev integration And so we use your next next cloud folder to have your assets and get synced in real time Uh, yeah, that's basically it. Um, we have different issues on the github repo. We have also a roadmap post it, um, we hope to release the stable version in, uh, may And right now we have Demo online, which you can already use just go to the website. You want to try it out If you are losing your assets disclaimer, it's not your our fault. It's very alpha yet So please don't put anything critical on there And yeah get involved in the in the repo and we hope To see more action going on here and to get this going on Until the end of the year Thank you Questions Yeah, um Okay. Yeah, we do actually um Yes, yes. So, uh, it was a question if we have a business plan, uh, we are doing open source design So we are we are pretty transparent about it. So, uh, this software can be self hosted So you can host it on your own server. We will be offering. Um, well, you can do it already now It's a bit difficult. We want to do it. Uh, we want to make it easier for people to self host it But if you don't want to if you don't care about that and you just wanted to make it work We will be offering a service where you can just subscribe and we will Well, you host it on our servers We'll there will be a free plan for basic things and premium plans for more advanced features custom domains and stuff like that But if you don't want to pay or you are Too careful. Um, you want to care about your own stop on your own server? You can just self host it Yeah That's Yes, that's not specified yet for the servers. We will be using but for the demo servers. It's in frankford right now We are yeah, we didn't want to do it in the u.s Anyone here? That's a good question actually we didn't address that yet. Sorry, um, if there's How will we be adding cmyk support into identity op in the future if it's svg was a question That's a good question actually and we didn't address it yet but I guess in the future once a priority is there we you can just add it manually So you basically have in the uploader your upload the svg and you upload also the cmyk It's kind of problematic if you will do version control and So you probably need to update Every time I'm not that developer. So it's kind of hard for me to wrap my head around that But um, it's definitely not a priority for this year for now Yep Yeah, I was actually actually asking our developer about that and he said like it's too too much of an overkill I don't know about that. Um, I'm a ux designer, but we Theoretically we wanted to offer all all ways of Installing installing identity up on your own server In the beginning people were saying us. Hey, you should make it very difficult for people to install it So they come to you and pay you Uh, but we didn't want to do that. So it should be your choice if you want to install it on your own server Um Docker image will be coming soon sooner or later if you want to help probably sooner Any other question? It's uh, it's utilizing my sql right now And I don't I'm not sure. Um, I don't think so but um Yeah, we we should do that. I mean If we have the manpower Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, I know the history of my sql and mario db. So probably yeah mario db might be a better choice We'll be thinking about that. Thanks Yeah, sorry. Um, yeah the question was if some pages were If all pages were public, right? In in the next versions, I think by may we'll have also a feature where you can make Pages private with password protection Or not or just give access to different users So, um, if you are using it internally in your organization just to share stuff within your team members You can do that as well in the future Not right now, but we are planning on that. It's one of the Medium priorities right now Yeah, it's not as far as I know, um, of course you can contribute It's kind The question sorry the question was if the user interface is available in different languages or if like people can contribute to do that Uh, it's kind of hard for us because we are designers who are trying to develop this and we are trying to translate this vision to developers who are helping us doing that and sometimes, um, it's hard To know what's possible and what not But every help is welcome Seriously, um, we are very responsive on the issues if you want to do something Even if it's not in our roadmap priority list blah blah blah You should definitely do that What support was that? Our 3d models the question was if we plan to support 3d models Uh, it was it was in the beginning. It was a great vision We had like to have a marketplace for vr 3d models which you can like put into your web vr a frame thing kind of But um, I think it's a bit too far fetch right now and Yeah, we we probably want to do it if it's get It's it's getting up to speed, but probably not in this year Unless someone is doing really much of work and yeah But we don't have the manpower right now Yeah Sure Okay, I guess uh The time's up. I'll be at the open source design booth also with the other designers Ask me for stickers and I can show you the demo life if you really want to use it yourself So yeah, thank you very much