In this episode of the Engineering Career Coach podcast, we talk with program and project management extraordinaire, Chris Knudson. Chris is going to describe the key project management skills and how they can help you to be a great engineering leader. Let's jump right in. All right, so now I'm excited to welcome kind of welcome back my friend as well as project management extraordinaire, Chris Knudson. Chris, welcome back to the podcast. Hey, thanks, Anthony. It's great to be back. It's been a while, excited to be back with you. Yeah, it has been a while. And I gave a little bit of an intro, of course, of your bio for some of the maybe the newer listeners that haven't heard some of your past episodes, because Chris previously served as a co-host with me on really on both of our podcasts and from time to time has done his own episodes.  I know it's been very interesting journey, but maybe you can give him kind of kind of the overview. Yeah, sure, Anthony. So it's actually, as you mentioned, that it's hard to believe it's you know, 2020, my professional career now is I was pulling together some notes for this. I started looking at it, I was like holy smokes, it's almost been 30 years. I've been in a professional professional capacity. So yeah, you know, I started, you know, straight out of college in the in the US Air Force, did 22 years there, you know, full career in the Air Force civil engineering arena, so project and program management. And, you know, kind of learned learned also facility facilities management and maintenance as well. So all different aspects of, you know, projects or whatever and delivery. And, and then in about 2015, left the Air Force and had an opportunity to come and work for the US government for a bit over in Germany. And then, and then ended up having another opportunity to get myself back to the UK, which is a place where where myself and my family actually had started early on. So back in the late 90s, we had a posting in the UK. And I always wanted to come back, had a chance really through my wife to be able to get back over here and we moved back. So once that happened, I left government service and went into the into private industry, into the architectural engineering arena, and have had the really a great opportunity, especially over the last three years to really dive into, into all facets of program and project management in the infrastructure delivery arena. I think probably in, you know, for those listeners who've heard from me before know that I've had an opportunity to spend a good portion of that career outside of the United States. And that was mostly through my, you know, through my military career. But, but a lot of time spent in Europe, several trips to the to the Middle East, doing doing different deployments while I was on active duty. And so I've had that that opportunity to really see project and program management upfront, delivered in a number of different arenas. So back in the United States over in Europe, down the Middle East, and think that it that's provided me with a pretty, pretty unique understanding of how projects and early programs in the infrastructure arena are delivered, planned and developed. So Chris, just before we go forward, just for the listeners to kind of, you know, we've talked about, I've heard you hear it say project management and program management, maybe you could just kind of give the difference between those two for the listeners that aren't familiar with that. Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and, you know, straight up, that was the concepts around differences between projects and programs is something that didn't really resonate even with me until maybe about three years, really three or four years ago. And that was when I started started moving from, you know, from the education in the in the self study I had around the project management professional and developing those project management skills and then moving into program management and ultimately getting my program management certification. So I think the fundamental fundamental differences are when we when I think of project management in a project I'm thinking about this discrete activity. So in the infrastructure, the AEC industry, that's that's a project that has a defined beginning defined end, because we've got a schedule that's got a schedule start date and a schedule schedule end date. And, and that project then is really controlled around the med, you know, what we a lot of people will know as the project triangle. So cost, scope, schedule, sometimes quality is brought into that as well. But by and large, the project manager is really focused on the delivery of a discrete activity. When I start thinking about program management now, I'm not look thinking about specific project. I'm thinking about the delivery of a number of projects that that are best managed to get benefit. And I'll come back to benefit in a minute, but to get benefits for the client, the funder, usually the finance year, and the end users that wouldn't come from managing each of those projects individually. So the program looks at it as a whole. And whereas projects are talking about again, talking about these discrete activities that are delivered really at the end of the day, we're talking about projects, we want projects that are delivered to cost and schedule. I think a lot of people go yeah, they're shaking their head, go yeah, I'm working on a project right now and costs and schedule are the two big things that always come up. Programs start looking at the benefits. What are the outcomes? What are we trying to achieve by the delivery of this project or these projects and other project associated activities? So if you look at if I kind of use my military terminology for a moment, you know, projects are tactical level. Programs begin to look at the operational and sometimes even strategic levels or strategic aspects associated with a number of projects that are being delivered to achieve some kind of an outcome or some kind of benefits. So hopefully that helps. And I would direct again, if people are like okay, yeah, I'd like that maybe even in simpler terms, I think maybe even a more elegant way to go do, you know, Google search for project management, PMI program management definition, you'll get a really good definition of what that looks like. Sure, but I mean, you know, based on what you just said, I mean, I think it's pretty clear that when you're talking project management, you're focused on one specific project and the tasks associated with it. Whereas, when you're talking pro program management, you're overseeing multiple projects and how they fit together and, you know, are driving. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, so again, when you get into the program management level, you know, you'll have project managers that are looking specifically at the tasks associated with that project. But at the program level, you're looking across the across the suite of projects, you know, could you could be it could be three projects, it could be 10 projects, could even be just two projects, call that I guess a program. But, you know, my experience has been it's usually more than five projects, you know, so, you know, the program that I've been most recently touching has 20 major capital investment projects and, you know, we're talking projects that are, you know, $6 million or more, 20 of those, you know, with a with a suite of about 15 smaller projects that range in value from $50,000 to, you know, to the $500,000. And so, you know, that right there, we're talking 40 separate projects that are all part of a major program that are trying to deliver a benefit, an outcome, providing an end-us in client with a capability, or achieving some kind of an organizational strategic aim that wouldn't be achievable unless all of those projects were designed and then executed and delivered to again now back to scope schedule and in the in cost. Right. So, you know, the puzzle can't be completed unless all the pieces are kind of in place. In that program, there's quite a lot of pieces. That's great. So, you know, really the topic we're going to talk a little bit about today with Chris is, you know, how your project management skills can contribute to overall to you being kind of an effective leader as an engineer. And Chris, I guess to kind of start on that, I mean, ever since, you know, you and I have known each other whenever we talk about career or any kind of professional topics, you know, project management always comes up for you. It's always been something that's, you know, being at the forefront of your mind, obviously, which is why, you know, we called you to talk about this today. What got you interested in project management? Yeah. So, yeah, great question. So, you know, I think, I think my interest in project management was really an offshoot of my interest and really the focus of my career for the first couple decades of my professional experience. So, again, in that in that Air Force engineering environment, civil engineering environment, it wasn't design focused, it was more delivery focused. And what do I mean by that?  I was more involved, well, not more involved, I was exclusively involved in the management delivery of that project.  That was the those are the types of things that I dealt with from early on in my in my engineering career. And so it was just for me kind of a natural progression through both that and the leadership aspects that were expected me as an Air Force officer to be able to step right into into the realm of project management. So for me, it was almost a, you know, kind of a hand in glove type of a situation. I guess maybe even to add more to that, instead of going to get a technical degree, master's degree, I ended up getting an MBA. So that led me more into that non technical aspect. And I don't mean that as a negative slight towards project management, because again, again, as you kind of highlighted, you know, project management for me is something that I'm somewhat passionate about, maybe even more so now about program management, now that I understand that. But but the, you know, that project management stroke program management, whatever you want to call it interest there really again is around the different things that come into play when you're talking about leadership as well. So it plugged right into that. And so for me, it was a natural progression based off of my early experiences coming up against infrastructure projects, civil works projects, and then integrating in the leadership skills that I was developing, communications, all those different aspects that naturally just come together in a discipline called project management. Interesting. And kind of a build on that a little bit, you know, most engineering professionals today, you know, in many disciplines, I mean, Chris and I did a lot of work in the civil field, of course, but in a lot of disciplines, engineering organizations, Chris will send their engineering professionals to project management training. And, you know, oftentimes, you know, PM training is kind of like an information overload experience for a lot of people. But just if we're talking about some of the keys or like the fundamentals to project management that stick out for you among kind of everything, what what might some of those be at least in your mind? Yeah, so you're absolutely right. Because if you if you go and grab, again, my education and project management was exclusively through the project management institute's suite of products. So, you know, for project management, you know, people are familiar with the PMP certification. You know, that's the magic project management book of knowledge, right, edition or whatever it might be now.  And each of those subsections has, you know, kind of flows through your process. There's like, I should know this number 48 or 49 sub activities. You know, it's a lot of information to try to take on board. So you're right. So how do you distill that down to the to the absolute basics? Knowing that some of the some of the listeners today aren't going to go through the process of getting PMP certified, but just truly wanted to have at least some basic skills to be able to do project management. So I think that, you know, so what are the what are the keys, I think that kind of come out of that, I would say, you know, you don't need to be a cost estimator to be able to understand the basics of cost.   So what's the WBS look like? And then spend some time unpacking associated cost breakdown structures are going to come from that, that are going to be provided either by your by your engineering counterparts in your own firm, or from the contractor, you know, kind of depends on what role you're playing. So are you playing a project manager on from the perspective of the contractor, so the company that's actually building it, and maybe you're in a design build type of a relationship. So you're in an engineering AE company that's married up with a constructor or contractor who's building stuff. Are you that PM working for them or are you a PM working for the for the owner as an owner's representative. So either one of those two, you want to, you know, you're going to want to see what the work breakdown structure looks like what those discrete tasks are. Because those are also going to be not only married to costs like the CBS cost breakdown structures would come from that. But also your schedule, your, you know, the schedule is going to be based off of that. And those those two elements cost and schedule, from my perspective, are the real baselines for project management. It's a PM 101. You need to understand what that looks like as a PM, because that then can allow you to be able to make to be able to come up with recommendations and make smart decisions around things like like scope management. All right, so projects should have a scope a well defined requirement. I mean, if they and then that's another one of those elements, again, as a project manager, you need to make sure has been unpacked correctly. So are you being handed the project that has a that has been already well defined and the requirements are well known, that has allowed you to be able to build that work breakdown structure, or are you are you working with a project that that hasn't, you know, that doesn't have very clearly defined scope. As a PM, if you've got a project without a defined scope, you're probably being handed a disaster just waiting to happen.  So you got to make sure that that that that scope is really locked down as well and good requirements. So, you know, so again, back to the project triangle scope cost schedule. The next bits I think that are important is is your is your personal time management and communications management skills. So how good are you at running meetings? All right, PM spent a lot of time in meetings. If you go, if I think I think something that sticks in my head from PM training is like a PM spends 90% of their time communicating, whether you're in meetings, so verbal communications or email, or whatever it may be, you're going to be communicating a lot. So, you know, you need to you need to spend some time developing a methodology and a means templates, you know, just really mundane things that you've got that so you can very quickly move through the issues that you've got to deal with. So communications to me is extremely important, one of making sure that you've got your own personal disciplines for how you approach that. And I think you've go ahead. Oh, Chris, no, I was just going to say going back to the work breakdown structure for those not fairly with it. That's basically the idea of breaking the project down into components. Is that accurate? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you have a, you know, if you've got a well defined, you know, project that's got a well defined scope, that project then can be broken down into discrete elements.  I mean, you're dissecting the work into discrete elements because in the more discrete you make it in those elements, the greater cost assurance that you can get. So if you, again, your cost engineers that are associated with this thing are going to become very, are very adept at being able to dissect and break a project down into its aggregate components. As a project manager, you know, you don't necessarily need to be the, you know, the 5,000 pound brain about each of the different, you know, millions of different activities are going to take place on that project, but you at least need to have a general understanding of what the, of what the general, you know, what the, what the macro categories are going to be and where costs are going against those. Okay. Cause in a project, you know, you're going to have costs going against mobilization, there's going to be costs against actual materials. There's going to be costs that are going to be broken down. If you're, let's say you're doing a building, you're going to have mechanical electrical, you know, MEP type work, you're going to have civil structural work, where are those costs being broken down? So you as a PM can have a better understanding of where money's going and, and then flag it. I mean, that's the reason you're doing the PM piece of it is to identify where something just doesn't seem right or costs are maybe going, starting to look like they're starting to go off the rails, like they're escalating or increasing. You're being paid as a PM to be able to identify where that's at and to be able to be able to take action before it becomes a crisis. Yeah, for sure. And so, so Chris kind of really hit on those, those key three fundamentals of project management, the triangle that he referenced, you know, project scope, project schedule and project budget or cost.  Let me make sure that, you know, we have a clear schedule and how are we doing on that schedule? And, you know, lastly, you know, we can look at the cost and are we on budget or, you know, over in some areas or under others or whatever the case may be. But what I do see a lot and this just happened with a client we were doing some coaching and training for is see a lot of issues today with like scope creep where, you know, people are just doing extra work. They don't know they're doing extra work.  And oh, by the way, it's because you weren't supposed to do that task. And so, you know, the client that I was working with now had to kind of go back to their, their client and say, you know, you kind of owe us like a half a million dollars for stuff we did, but we didn't tell you we were going to do it or we didn't tell you that it was an addition to what happened. So I think that like, you know, we're not in this episode, we're not drilling into the real details of project management. That's probably like a whole other series we could do with Chris. But the point is, is that, you know, you can always come back to those, that triangle of the scope schedule cost and, you know, reevaluate all those things. If you're feeling overwhelmed in project management, you're starting in project management, which kind of Chris can take us into the next section of what we want to talk about, which is, you know, how do your project management skills translate into you being an effective manager and leader overall as an engineer.  Yeah, that's, that's a great, great question. Because I'm going to maybe use a couple different segues here because I, you know, I was using a lot of examples around being a PM dealing on it, let's say an actual construction project, you know, so something's being built you're either an owner's representative PM on one of these projects being built or you're working for the contractor. You know, you can be a PM as well. And I think maybe, you know, the reference that you made with your, with the client you were working with was a PM within an architectural engineering firm. And that firm is actually working as the design engineer on a project, you know, so there's still, there's project management activities associated there with a scope costs and a schedule as well. So it's not necessarily always just building stuff, you know, something you can build a horizontal or vertical work project. Yeah, there's PMs there, but there's also PMs internally that design company that's doing design work because you've got a scope, you need to design this, and you've got a schedule and you've already bid the work and this is how much money we've got. And of course, if you consume all that, then that's your revenue gone.  So I've got teams that are dealing with owners representative on the actual construction of projects. And I've got teams as well and PMs who are managing in-house or company resources that are actually doing design work. And by and large the PM skills, you know, really are the same. You touched again on the triangle, right? So scope costs and schedule, those are always the three most important elements right out of the gate. And they're the ones that I ask the PMs that are working with me to make sure that they have dived into the details on that, truly understand the performance work statement, which is the scope, what's the client looking for, and then understand how it was bid. And sometimes that means getting with whoever the proposal developer was, especially in the AE architectural engineering arena, you're doing design work. If you weren't involved with the actual development of that proposal to go in and bid for that project, you know, you're going to have not all the details and all the information of how that was, how they, you know, how your partners in your company, I guess, arrived at the costs associated with that. So you need to make sure that you understand those aspects of it. So again, it comes back to the magic triangle, you know, what's the scope? What's the cost? What's the schedule? Again, in the AE design industry, you've got a scope, that's the performance work statement, you know, what's what needs to be designed. Somebody presumably, hopefully you were involved in putting together a proposal on that cost proposal, maybe you weren't. But there's a cost that was associated with that bid off of the number of hours it's going to take to be able to do that work. And then there's a schedule, one of the deliverables, one of the milestones for delivering, let's say a 35, 65, 95, 100% design, whatever it may be, understand that and understand how that racks up against the costs and what are the disciplines that are involved in it. A lot of the project, the PMs that are working for me that are doing the design side are dealing with multi-discipline projects. So that, you know, I may have a PM, a PM that has a civil background, but he or she is managing a team of engineers that are across different disciplines because we're doing both vertical and horizontal type work. So, you know, so I may have a civil engineer who now is managing work that's coming out of the electrical discipline, you know, some mechanical disciplines, et cetera like that. And there'll be technical leads in those areas. But again, if you haven't done work, if you're a civil engineer and you haven't done work with electrical or mechanical, you know, it's early on in your career, it's going to be, it's going to be a bit of a steep learning curve, which means what in steep learning curves, you know, lots of, lots of reading, make sure you understand the scope. And it also means making sure that you're asking questions and not just assuming, making assumptions on things that you're asking questions. And if something doesn't seem right, that you flag it and you bring it up and you have a, you have an adult conversation around what that looks like. Yeah, for sure. And you know, like Chris said, he's given some construction examples, he does a lot of work in program management infrastructure today. And however, that being said, you might be listening to the podcast, you might be a mechanical engineer, let's see, working on an airplane design for a company like Boeing, you're going to have the same triangle, you're going to have the scope of work, you're going to have the schedule, you're going to have the cost, right? So that's why this project management is very universal, especially some of the PMP materials that Chris mentioned, you know, there's all engineers and all walks get in the PMP. You know, I see it all the time and I talk to them all the time, you could be doing an electrical design for components on something. And really, in terms of like, you know, how these project management skills translate into you being effective as a leader or great engineering manager in kind of in my opinion is it comes back to what Chris said before, the communication aspect of it. So you have to understand the key project management fundamentals, and then you have to communicate them. So, you know, if I'm a project manager and Chris is, you know, working on my team, and he's not clear on what the scope is, and he's working on things that are outside of the scope, and we end up kind of getting screwed because of that, that's really my fault, because I haven't educated him on those things. So I would think Chris that, you know, project management skills are really critical to being a good leader, because you need to understand these, you know, the triangle and other things around it, and you need to be able to communicate it effectively. Yeah, again, absolutely. So as a project manager, it falls on your shoulders again, is kind of unpacked to understand what that scope is. What's the, you know, it's kind of what's your mission, you know, you're the you're the PM project manager, you've got a mission that has to be accomplished, that's based off of what that scope of work is. Here's the scope, you must accomplish this. It must be done by this date, you know, usually there's a schedule, there's going to be a target end date on that. And you have this much money that's been associated with it. Again, if we move out of the, if we move out of the arena of construction, so building stuff, but we move more into the arena of the AE architectural engineering design aspect. And again, it could be in the, it could be in the, the civil's arena. But, but again, as you already highlighted, it could be, it could be in the aviation industry, it could be in the, in the, you know, the car industry, whatever it is, automotive industry, project manager, it's project management, projects that get assigned to you have, again, have a scope. And there's a cost associated with that scope and a schedule associated with it. Because we never, we don't enter it, nobody in depending what discipline you're in, enters into a project that has just like an, you know, kind of an open ended time, you know, we don't, we don't care when it gets delivered, we could care less of how much it costs. I mean, those two things and they are always, always going to be binding. So as that project manager dissect the scope, make sure you understand what that looks like, so that when you have your project team and you're bringing them in, you, you understand what it is that, that has to be accomplished when it needs to be accomplished. You can articulate that appropriately, you know, to the, to the, let's say the discipline leads and your project team so that you have the ability then to be able to move towards achieving the different milestones that have been laid out in the schedule. And I think that's where the leadership piece of it comes in.  That's kind of what goes through my mind when I hear the word management, you know, leadership is about doing, doing the right things. And so that's, you know, that's, again, that kind of really plays back into the scope piece of it. So I know that's got the term project management that can, that conjures up in my mind, all kinds of quite frankly passive, you know, lagging type indicators where we're looking at something after it's already happened. But it's really twofold. So if we take the project triangle again and we unpack that, the management piece in my mind is the management of the cost and the schedule. The leadership part comes in with the scope. And that's about doing the right things.  And maybe that's the reason you do it. I don't know. I guess you can do that. But since most of the, you know, a lot of the people that are likely listening to this episode are working in for profit, you know, private industry, private sector companies, you know, are, you know, the people that we work for are going to be very much fixated on utilization rates. They're going to be very much fixated on net revenue, gross revenue, those kinds of things like that. And in your utilization rate gets diluted very quickly when you're, when you're doing a lot of extra work that, that is beyond what it was actually asked for. And there's certain, certainly we can get into discussion, totally separate, probably podcasts that there's, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe cases where you're going to do that. But again, project management, manage the scope, and, and I'm sorry, manage the cost in the schedule, the leadership aspects that we've been talking about that really comes in on the scope part. So, you know, exactly what is it that we're trying to do and the right things are being done, so that then those things can be managed so that we know that we're doing things right. Awesome, awesome. So, you know, there you have it in terms of kind of project management, you know, we talked about the, the triangle, you know, being the, being the scope, schedule and budget. And, you know, as Chris really mentioned, then when you transfer those skills into how effective you can be as a leader, it's really about that scope and making sure that people are working on the right things and everyone's clear on that. So, what we're going to do now is we'll take a break for a moment. I'll come back with Chris and we'll wrap this one up here in our take action today segment where I have one more question for Chris. All right, we're back with Chris Knudts and we're talking about project management and really how it relates to effective management and leadership overall in the engineering world. And Chris, just from, from knowing you for a long time, as I said earlier, always focused on developing your project management skills. It's always been something that you're passionate about. And just to kind of wrap up here, you know, in this last segment, for those out there thinking like, all right, this kind of sounds like it's important, but like, what is it really going to do for me? What has, what has the development of your project management skills kind of meant to you overall in your career? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, well, you know, for me, for me, professionally, personally, professionally, it's allowed me to be able to, you know, to amass this body of knowledge that I can apply against my actual, you know, experiences that I've had in my professional work to be able to combine the two of those and figure out what worked, what didn't work, why did things come out the way that they needed to once I understood this, you know, the body of knowledge of project management and then use that to support clients that I'm working for, whether I was in government service or now in the private industry to be able to make projects for my clients, you know, to come closer to what the scope was to be able to define good project requirements and deliver them the cost and schedule.  Why would anybody think that project management or program management is any different than that? And that's one of the things that I've really begun, begun to understand as I've, as I've, you know, matured in my thinking around, around project and program management. It's, it's something that I've experienced and have, have actually witnessed in individuals who have been placed, clearly placed into roles of responsibility as project or program managers who lacked the experience, the knowledge, the skills and abilities. And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that if people aren't, if, you know, we as engineers, we as professionals, project professionals aren't taking the time to develop our project and program management skills. What, you know, how do you think, you know, what makes you think that you can just step into those roles in the more challenging projects and programs and just be able to somehow magically be able to, to do the work that needs to be done.  And I can clearly say that 10 years ago, I would have not been able to do what I can do today. And that, again, is purely part of its from experience, but a lot of it's just basic knowledge around, around the details and the basics of project and program management. So, so the value comes from it, what's the value statement out of it? Get educated in project management now. If you haven't done that, if you've already done it, shore those skills up, look for opportunities to be able to take on project management roles, amass the experience, because that experience will allow you then to be able to move into increasing roles of increasing responsibility, scope of control, span of control, and really refine your leadership abilities when it comes to taking a project from somebody's crazy idea, feasibility through handout, handover and ultimate use. Awesome. And, you know, as much as a lot of the stuff that we talked about today may sound, you know, complex in some ways, I got to tell you, there are a lot of engineers or engineering companies that lack sound project management skills, they just don't even, they don't even look at the scope and they don't even focus the scope. So my point and telling you that is, is that to Chris's point, just educating yourself on some of these skills can really differentiate you in the field as an engineer. Just, you know, being aware of scope when other people on the project are not is going to easily make you stand out to your company and, you know, be able to do some of the things like Chris has been able to do, you know, being a program manager for hundreds of millions of dollars of projects. So, again, Chris Knudts and Chris, thanks for, you know, kind of checking back in with us on the podcast and talking about this topic, which I think is a really important one for engineers. Yeah, absolutely, Anthony. It's great to be back with you. Great to be talking to all the listeners out there and yeah, just get after it. Go make your project and program management success. Take it, grab onto it, make the best out of it. the key points discussed in today's episode as well as links to any of the resources, websites or books mentioned during the episode. Until next time, I wish you the best in all your engineering career endeavors.


Alright, thank you very much for keeping it to why in the morning if you're just joining us this is Y254 TV. My name is Rob Agucco and you're just in time for the very next conversation of the day. And today it's all about understanding the 17 national values. It's all about the youth and the 17 national values. Now there's 17. Remember, 17. All these national values are very important. We may not be able to cover all of them. So I want to just pick just a few on this particular conversation. Well, to help us understand this, I'm joined by Peter Moshe. He is the deputy director from the Directorate of National Cohesion and Values from the Minister of Interior and Coordination of National Government. Karibusana Bonapita. Thank you. Hope you're well. I'm well. And thanks for finding time to join me this morning. Thank you also. Yeah, as we have this conversation, I'm sure that you also engage with us. The hashtag is one in the morning at Ram Agucco. That Y254 channel that is on Twitter. Head over to Facebook also or drop your comments on our page there. We shall sample your feedback as you continue with this conversation. Now, as we begin, Bonapita, we're talking about the national values and principles of governance that exist and that youth should follow. Let's just be able to just recapture on these things first, just in a nutshell. When you say national values, because you've had this conversation before, for those who may have joined us today and have no idea about what we are talking about, national values, before we touch on the different ones, what exactly are we talking about when we say national values, especially for the youth? He's an Inini. Yes. The youth are equal. Yes. First, let me say national values are the fundamental foundations we have that guide us as a nation and as a people in our country, Kenya. And of course, national values also, they are known to influence our attitudes, our behavior. In other words, they define us, they define our identity as Kenyans. Wow. And thirdly, I know national values, they also define how state power is exercised in terms of government relations with the people and also how people relate with each other. And it is because of these that the government is really interested in promoting national values, especially among the youth. We are coming to an electioneering period, come 2022. Yes. And when you talk about patriotism, for example, how can that youth ensure that they are patriotic? And what does it mean to be patriotic for your country? Yes. Thank you, Aguco. I know that maybe it is important to inform our youth that our national values are found in our constitution. They are found in article 10 of the constitution that's best for any reference for any Kenyan can get the constitution and refer. And there are 17 of them. And the first one is just the value that you have mentioned. That's the value of patriotism. Patriotism comes first as our national value because that is the value that it defines our commitment to our country as our people. And of course the youth have a role to play, have a major role to play in terms of promoting patriotism within our country. And there are several ways our youth and the general citizenry can be able to promote patriotism. That is especially under the youth. They are known to be the most innovative segment of our society. And therefore they can apply their skills and innovation for the advancement of our country. And if we talk about patriotism, I mean we've seen so many people. You've heard of this slogan. Yes. But it's not easy for me to say this. And I'm not a Kenyan. Does that promote patriotism? No, the latter does not. Patriotism simply requires that what can you do for your country? It's not as much as what is the government doing for you. Now, should the youth say that last one is called Jeshi and the other is called patriotism? Not only in Jeshi, there are several avenues through which the youth can promote patriotism. Remember, the youth are very talented. They can be able to participate through art, through sports. For example, they just concluded Olympic sporting activities in Tokyo, in Japan. It is our youth who brought us that kind of glory. Why do you want to be a Kenyan? I want to be a Kenyan because of our youth. They can promote patriotism even through music, through art. And several avenues that the youth have got to play their role in at least advancing the policies of this country and also in ensuring that we have a country and we are building a country that we want. We've seen even in sports, Kenyan youths go into the fields with a flag. They put on those t-shirts with the Kenyan flag. Some of them paint themselves, you know, the black, red, green colors on their skin. I think even that's a sign that you are standing in for your country. That's a sign of patriotism. All that we need to do as a nation, as a country, is to encourage our youth to sustain that kind of spirit. That's the spirit that can make us at least make this country also great. Is it possible for these youths to also ensure that that one also spreads even during times of elections? Sure. Sure, the youths have a role to play. And during an electioneering period, they are the majority. They can take the lead in ensuring that we have peaceful elections. But at least avoiding to be misused by anyone, to be misled, to be influenced in any way that is negative. And we can have a peaceful election. Of course, if we are able to convince our youths that it's part of their value system, that they have to contribute positively in ensuring that elections year in, year out, whenever we are holding them in five years, we have put mechanisms in place to ensure that we are going to hold that election without the kind of skirmishes that we see, that are characterized by involving the youths. Because it is during that time that youths are involved in violence, you know. If you go to the roads, those who are throwing stones, the youths. Yes. When you work a tile or a wash a motor, it's the youth. And how is it that we can be able to promote now national unity during this time? Because now that one is a threat to national unity. It is a threat to national unity in the sense that youths aren't able to, you know, see eye to eye. They cannot be able to interact with each other. Because during elections, now my neighbor is no longer my neighbor. Now they are from another tribe. Now they are from another. How do you promote national unity during these times? Yes. For the youth? Yes. There are several ways we can inculcate the value of national unity among our youth, of course, by enabling them to interact across the different diversities, across the tribal lines by ensuring that we are giving them the right guidance in life, in ensuring that youths embrace national unity because it creates a sense of belonging, it creates a sense of sharing. We look at challenges from a common perspective. We look at ourselves as Kenyans first before we look at ourselves as individuals coming from our respective communities and by ensuring that we make them believe that togetherness across the different diversities we are able to achieve our goals. We are able to achieve a common vision. We must build that sense of common sharing amongst our youth through, of course, encouraging them to engage in programs that cut across. But now we talk about national unity. There are two terms here that have quite caught my attention. Yes. Unity and national. There is unity that you can have as a family, family unity. There is unity that you can have as a society, societal unity. But here we talk about national unity. What exactly are we trying to talk about here with these two particular terminologies, national unity, because there is also international. Yes. Yes. National unity is basically a deliberate effort that we put in ourselves that influences us to look at each other from the different perspectives as equal as same people sharing same challenges, pursuing same goals, also pursuing a same future. Regardless of tribe and color. Yes. Regardless of all those classifications, regardless of all those diversities that normally we used to define ourselves. So it is upon us as leaders, as people who influence opinion to inculcate the same in our youths to show them, to give them guidance towards that vision whereby they will start looking at themselves across the tribal lines, across all the different classifications we have as one. It means the youths actually have the power within themselves to promote national unity. Sure. Sure. The youths have got that power because like I said, they are talented. Yeah. They are innovative. Youths, once they start engaging each other, they forget about their tribal backgrounds and the different classifications. So therefore it means it is much easier for us to work through the youths if we give them the right guidance. Yes. And if you look at the guidance that you're talking about here and I love how you're mentioning it. Youths have it all within themselves. Yes. The talent is there. And that's why everyone is talking about youth, youth, youth. Even during elections, they go for the youth because the talent is there. And it means that we are looking at that kind of power that is at the bottom, which reminds me of something called devolution. Yes. Yeah. The power that is at the bottom where the youths are has the ability to change the whole country. And devolution of power, actually sharing and devolution of power is one particular aspect that is important especially for the youth. Yes. How deep can it go? How can youths also engage in this particular aspect of devolution? Yes. Of course, the national value of sharing and devolution of power, it is important and it is there in our constitution and we have seen it. It's in application in terms of governance structures that we have at the moment. And therefore these calls for the youths to understand that system and the structure of governance so that they can be able to play a major role in terms of participating actively in projects, programs and activities that are taking place at the account level because this is a system whereby we know resources have been shared. The resources have been distributed now to the grassroots level. Yeah. And therefore the youths have the knowledge with which they can be able to also participate and make use of these resources, enable the counties also to run the programs by of course involving the youths also in such programs. That is where we find that if the youths were to be engaged at let's say at the account level then we could be seeing that the difference coming in in terms of progress, development, investments coming to the level of the counties. It is the youths who have actually that potential to transform and change the way things are done at that level. It means that the power exists. Yes. It exists. It's upon the youths from the grassroots to take advantage of it. Yes. To share it amongst themselves. Yes. To promote the beliefs that they have that take the country to the next level. Yes. And if I look at that aspect of devolution of power, for someone who may not understand what we are talking about here, how can MIMI as a youth, these are new terminology that I'm getting, devolution of power, what exactly are we talking about here? Because nowadays we are hearing so many terminologies especially in the political realm that are being thrown left right center. Yes. Devolution, sharing and devolution of power simply refers to the two levels of government. They are in terms of structure that is in a resource sharing. Yes. One and then two, the political power is shared also amongst the two levels that is at the national level and also at the county level through that political structure. Okay. And that is what it simply means. Yes. It means the youth can be able to engage themselves in this line. Within this line, for example, youths need not to be standing by and just watching. They have a chance also to lead through by participating in active elections. They can be elected to be MCAs. They can also apply for jobs at the count level to be the chief executive of SAS, the county public service board. They can apply for various jobs and also contribute actively and positively for the development of that structure of governance especially at the count levels. It's interesting because that's actually another perspective of national values, the participation of the people. Yes. Some youths have gone and said, no, in this coming election, we are not going to vote. Some are saying I have to make chalkers. Others on the other hand know who they are going to vote for and they are going to actually vote for that particular individual. If you look at on the flip side, there are those who know who they are going to vote for but when they get to the ballot, they get influenced in other ways. Participation of the people. How deep can it go for a youth? How can youths participate? Yes. That is under the value of democracy and the participation of the people. That requires that youths need to exercise their rights in terms of electioneering and ensuring that the culture of democracy is cultivated in Kenya and at the same time they need to be involved through participation of the people. It simply means they are all also an active law to play, determine that kind of leader and at the same time they can also go for active electioneering. They can vote for those very positions and we encourage that under participation of the people, there is need for them to be active or actively involved and in ensuring that we create a democratic culture that we can be able to be proud of instead of sitting back and saying, no, I'm not going to participate in elections because you are passing on the blame to someone next but in essence you have the right, you have the power. You can be able to take action. So it's not good for a youth to say that no, this time around I'm sitting it out. No. I'm sitting at home and I'm talking to you. So who is going to elect for you, that very person that you want? That you want. It simply means the youths must be actively involved. So if you don't participate, you will actually never get the results you want. No. No, that's for sure. So if you look at the structure that is coming up in these particular coming elections, I'm seeing so many youths coming up, vying for different seats. Is that also, you know, how good can that be especially for the youth? Is that also a sign that, you know, youths are coming up, that the mindset is being that the perspective of leadership in the youth, among the youth is actually changing? Sure. That should be encouraged and that's why we say a nation whose youth is founded on a strong foundation on national values, they will be able to participate in every aspect, in every sector of our society and that involvement is a positive direction that they have taken and that is encouraged. That will bring the kind of transformation that we talk about, that is brought about by inculcating and making national values a way of life. There are people who normally say that they are activists and they want to come up when they see something wrong. And the youths, when they see something wrong, they go to the streets. How can we, as youths, participate and ensure that we promote democracy in the society? As youths, at the same time, not get in bad terms with, you know, with the law and forces because we've seen so many people going on the streets, it goes and ends up in riots, what on earth, some even get killed. Yes. So what the youths need to understand is that there is need to abide by the rule of law. The rule of law is one of the national values that is very important. It simply means that you are always guided by the law. You are doing the right thing. You are looking at the law and ensuring that there is law and order. There is peace. Therefore, the youths have got a role to play also in this one because they are the most active and yet they are the most influenced, sometimes negatively. Therefore, once they are aware, they are conscious that there is the rule of law. They need to be law abiding citizens. They need to lead by example. Then that will ensure that the youths will avoid these kind of arrangements that we find which take them to their own direction. Is it because of lack of following the rule of law that during riots people get harmed? How can youths participate in activities that they want to engage in, follow the rule of law and at the same time achieve what they want to achieve? The youths, since they understand their knowledge, they can be able to read, they can be able to participate in awareness creation forums, they can be able to interpret the law and, of course, involve themselves in youth engagements, in youth groups, in awareness creation, in civic education about abiding by their role, ensuring that they maintain law and order, they participate in such activities like electioneering, without necessarily causing damage, yes. And what comes to the rule of law? Is it banned legally or according to law, someone to say that I do not want to go and vote? Should I feel like I'm breaking any law if I don't vote? It's a personal choice because that's personal liberties, but also those freedoms are allowed that if you cannot be able to participate in elections, then who is going to do it for you? Then you will continue to blame the others, push on, blame elsewhere, and yet you have the power within yourself, yes. So it is a good thing that they participate in those civic righties, yes. Those liberties are there, it's a civic duty, so it is something that we have to encourage our youth to also undertake, yes. Social media has had a very big role to play when it comes to observing the rule of law. Many have ended up on the wrong terms, on the wrong side rather, in terms of the law, some getting arrested, some getting infringing on other people's rights because of breaking the rule of law on social media. How can youths promote or promote the rule of law on social media online, regardless of these times that we are going for, because now we are going for 22 general elections, many will go to Facebook, to Twitter, the posts will come, there will be many. How can you promote the rule of law doing this time? Yes, we have the law, we have the law that governs media, and therefore it's important that the youths, before they engage in those social media activities, they need to look at the law, what the law says. The law is just one, it says you have to abide by the law and you have to refer, every action is defined in law and therefore it is important that social media is not operating out of nowhere. It is controlled also by a given legislation, so that piece of legislation which controls media must be adhered to by all the youths and any other person who is using media. They shouldn't just make any posts, talk about anyone, insult anyone in whichever way? No, an infringement on the law is just wrong, it cannot be justified in any way, yes. And that brings me to the perspective of human dignity, because many even go to social media. And they post about, let's say, a particular individual, a particular leader, and they would talk about it in ways that some feel to be inappropriate. How do you promote human dignity among the youth? Yes, the youths have a major role to play in terms of ensuring that people's liberties, people's rights, especially human dignity is upheld by ensuring that they don't do something that infringes on others' rights, by also getting involved themselves as an active segment of society, by leading by example, participating in activities that promote the dignity of others and also ensuring that they lead the way by participating in community activities, by ensuring that they have proved themselves like they can be able to assist their communities, also in terms of ensuring that they help, let's say for example the elderly, they can do activities that help the society, their communities, their neighbourhoods to be better places. Yes, that's a way of at least upholding human dignity. And we've seen so many youths not caring about others. Some are selfish for lack of a better term. Honestly, they promote selflessness. I mean their self, how do I say, selfish desires for lack of a better term. Is it possible for youth to look out for themselves, at the same time promote human dignity in a way that they are able to look out for their neighbour? Yes, they can. Of course, it starts with self and others also, but foremost it all is concerned about caring for others, ensuring that there is fairness, there is social justice, there is a way. You look at the others and you see them as having their rights and it is those rights that once you are able to recognise them, then against your own personal beliefs and rights, then you can be able to uphold human dignity, your neighbour and yourself. So you also believe that just as you are affiliated to a particular ideology, your neighbour also should be given the same respect to affiliate themselves with another ideology that doesn't necessarily have to be in alignment with what you have. No, you don't have to want that everyone acts or agrees with you in the way you see things. That is what we are talking about, human dignity, is respecting others, respect their opinion, respect their way of doing things as long as it doesn't infringe on you. You've seen it in terms of sports also. Many people are now mocking what was Arsenal. Arsenal players. I think it's even in many offices. I don't know if you have Arsenal fans in the building. I don't subscribe to that but I respect their views and their opinion. Yes, yes. Youths end up getting into fights just because they don't agree in particular ideologies. How is it that youths can be able to? From what perspective should they look at it? Well, they shouldn't be at loggerheads either at all. The youths were to understand themselves. The youths were to understand the avenues they have got. They have to understand the rights of others. They have to understand what needs to be done and how someone's action can be able to influence negatively or infringe on someone's rights. Therefore, it's a question of themselves understanding themselves, understanding their rights and understanding the ways to respect others and be able to interact in a manner that does not cause any kind of conflict. Yes, yes. Because we respect each other regardless of beliefs that we may have. We may differ but in a way we are together in this as youths. Yes, yes. We want to talk about equity. What do we mean exactly, equity? Equity simply means fairness. A fair way of sharing either resources, a fair way of working together, a fair way of taking action, a fair way of making decisions. But this is a value that requires that you look at the circumstances that someone is in. You look at the environment within which someone is operating. Then you act accordingly. If it is a question of sharing resources, you are able to let someone have resources according to their needs. Therefore, for the youth, it's a question of understanding that the value of equity requires that they are fair in whichever circumstances they are in. They face common challenges but the level at which one person is is not the same as the other person. Therefore, you tend to be fair to the other side to ensure that there is at least something that is happening at both levels that will bring you finally to a level where it's acceptable. Now for both. For this kind of youth who is watching you this morning and we are talking about equity. How should they understand it? How can they promote equity from the level that is the home level before they go even to the society? And from the community where they are and even as they go towards getting into positions of leadership? Yes, if I may take it from a family perspective, it's just a question of accepting that even themselves at a family level there are those variations. So in order to address those variations at the family level there is need to be fair in terms of what they get at a family level. When we come to the community, the same principle also applies. It applies that you must look at the needs of people first and then try to work towards at least addressing those needs. Can there be equity in leadership? Yes, there is equity in leadership in terms of ensuring that decisions that you make should be able to bring that spirit of fairness in whatever decisions that are made at the level of leadership. So you always have this feeling that there is no equity in leadership and that's why they are going to vie for some particular positions. That fairness that you are talking about isn't there. How can we promote it then in leadership? Well, leadership is about competition but the fairness will come in whereby we as the electorate, the youth as the electorate will be able to judge and say someone is going to be fair to them in this area, in this aspect. Someone is going to make decisions that will affect them in terms of fairness in distribution of resources in the way things will be done, in the way decisions will be made. Therefore, it is at that level whereby we will determine how to elect a leader that we can see will be fair to us. So let me just normally say this, that leadership is not given. It's taken. I don't know. They subscribe to that. I think I feel leadership is acquired through a fair process. Yes. That's democracy. That's democracy. So let's not vouch for leadership being taken. No, that goes against the values that we are championing. Yes. I want us to finish this conversation to wrap it up. But as you were saying, because there are so many values that we have not yet touched on, we shall find another day to yet touch on more of these values. But the ones that we have covered so far, we have talked about patriotism, national unity, we have talked about sharing and declaration of power, the rule of law, democracy, participation of the people, human rights and equity. For us to get towards the right path as the Kenyan youth. And I'm looking at the perspective of leadership yet again that youth want to be able to be given some positions to feel like they are represented. That they want to feel represented even as they vote. They want to feel represented even as they get into next year's election-eering period. They want to feel represented in terms of employment. Some lack jobs. Some are struggling from the ground. And we are talking about national unity, national values here. Yet we are talking about national values and we are talking about money. How can the youth who is watching you outside here be able to grasp all these concepts yet at the end of the day still understand that it is for my own good. It is for my own development and not only for myself but also the development of the society regardless of the challenges you are facing considering the economic times. Yes, first let me say that the youth should not sit back and wait to be given positions but they need to come together as youths, cocas, they have several channels through which youths interact especially currently nowadays. And they need to understand one thing that the foundation of a nation in advancement it is based on its innovation. It is founded on its national values. Therefore once we have our youths embracing innovation, embracing talent, nurturing and entrepreneurship and therefore basing it on a national value system the youths can be able to resolve some of the challenges that we are facing. They can be able to engage themselves in active lifestyles that can be able to transform their lives in a big way. So they don't have to wait until they are given. They don't have to wait for handouts. They don't have to wait for someone to give them something in order to influence them but they have the right and the power within themselves to come together, engage positively, engage each other and cocas and make sure that they are advancing the rights and the rights of the youths and they are able to change their states from the current state where we are talking about youths are being influenced negatively and they will move forward. It's quite interesting that you are talking about that because it was just last week that we had so many youths talking about getting into some odd forms of businesses which don't promote national values. Last week we had posed a question to our viewers there about the wash wash business whether youths can and so many youths were saying they wanted to do it. It was quite interesting on our social media page so many youths were saying that they want to get into that particular business it doesn't promote national values. It doesn't promote all these things that we are talking about here. Yes, that is because for a time we agreed that our value systems have been eroded both the general values, family values up to national level where we are talking about our national values we have faced the challenges as a society we have seen our society go through a transition we are also transforming we are also being influenced by external factors and therefore as a result we have lost our value systems but at the same time that's why we are saying we are reclaiming the same because of those low levels of value systems in us that's why you find our youths are saying there are shortcuts but what we are saying if we embrace a national value system and we make it our way of life then we don't have to approve some of those activities and actions we will find ourselves coming back on track and being proud of ourselves who we are, our country and of course we'll be doing things that advance life in a positive way Rat Tan encouraging some of those things that we are talking about The shortcuts Yes, the shortcuts Yes But people love short cuts Yes Sure Peter Moise, thank you so much for finding time to come my brother Thank you I appreciate it I was with Peter Moise, he is the deputy director from the director of national cohesion and values as always it's a pleasure We've not touched on all of them we still have more, remember there are 17 values 17 we're talking about youths and 17 values they've only touched on around 8 of them 8 We'll finish on them at a later date God willing we'll find time to have this conversation again Thank you so much for coming Thank you so much Yes Keep the hashtag going The hashtag is one in the morning at Ram Magukko and at Y254 channel on Twitter I'm sampling just a few of your feedback as we wrap this conversation up on our social media handle Remember, at Ram Magukko is my handle where you can find me, keep tweeting and keep texting Remember, it's all about understanding national values right here on Y in the morning Now, to sample a few of your feedback I'm seeing here, this is Stanley and as I'm watching you from Uttiru, yes, thank you so much Stanley I'm seeing here, national values is very important watching you together with my family here in Rungai Thank you so much I'm sure that you'll also tell us where you're watching us from Quite interesting it is I'm seeing here Dan and Asama enjoying the show Love the conversation, keep it up guys Alright I'm seeing this is Phillip Phillip and Asama, thank you for bringing these guests It's very important that youths promote national values Shortcuts are not good Alright I'm seeing Joy, Joy and Asama enjoying the show Watching you from This is, country that particular name there Shida Matamushi I'm seeing here, this is Alright, let me pass that Alright, this is Wilfred And Asama enjoying the conversation Watching you from Kino, Asada Sana Wilfred This is Agnes, Agnes also watching us Thank you so much for being part of this conversation Keep tweeting and keep texting Meanwhile, let's take a short break We'll be back in a bit But that brings us to the end of this particular conversation On understanding national values Are you aware that they are in the constitution Head over to the constitution And get to read more about that My name is Ram Maguko Thank you so much for being part of this conversation We still have more for you on one in the morning This is Y254, keep it here