Hello people of the internet, my name is Johnny and welcome to what should be a quick little update video on the Ultimate Custom Night console ports. So a couple days ago, Clickteam released the controls for Ultimate Custom Night on the Xbox One, the PlayStation 4, and the Nintendo Switch. So we're going to be taking a look at those controls because I know a lot of you guys are excited for those ports and I am too. But before we hop into the controls, quick little reminder, when it does release on the Nintendo Switch, we will be streaming it. So if you don't want to miss that, subscribe. I mean it's free and you can unsubscribe whenever you want. So let's take a look at the controls. So the first one we have here are the controls for the PS4. Now bear with me because I am not as familiar with the PS4 controller as I am with the Xbox and Switch one, so bear with me on that. But here we go. So the left button on the controller will open up your monitor and the right button allows you to put on and off your mask. I'm still not a huge fan of the monitor and the mask buttons being swapped because in-game they're swapped so I don't like their controls being swapped but I'm sure hopefully it's not going to cause too much difficulties. So the top button on the D-pad closes the forward vent, the left button closes the left door, the right button closes the right door, and the down button closes the side vent. Pretty straightforward, I think that's perfect. Left stick will turn everything off, I think that's another nice one. The start button, you hold that to go back to the menu, pretty simple. Y button changes the music. The B button cancels everything- oh wait what? So I don't know why they subtitled these buttons like this, but Y, B, A, and X should be triangle, circle, cross, and square, so I don't know why those are titled like that. Anyway, so the triangle button changes the music, the circle button cancels everything or just cancels out of something. I'm not sure what it means by cancels if I'm being honest. B cancel the call, mute the call, I don't really know, that's a strange one. The cross will use the flashlight, and the square catches the fish, closes the ad, and winds the music box. That one I see having some difficulties if you're on the camera winding the music box, and then you've got to catch a fish, that one might be a bit complicated to do, but usually if we're thinking about 50-20, you're not going to be winding the music box, so I think people should be fine with that. Maybe the cancel button is like the select, I don't know, I'm still trying to think about what that could be. Anyways, let's move on. So the right stick turns on and off the desk fan, okay, and I'm guessing the sticks you can just use one to look around, I mean that's pretty simple. Okay, so the left trigger and up or down on the D pad is where you have your power gen, silent ventilation, the heater, the power AC, the globe music box, and all off. I don't know how difficult that is going to be, because again, I'm not experienced with the PS4 controller, so PS4 players, is that good? You know, leave your feedback in the comments below. So the cursor and A button will use the right trigger and select with left analog. Okay, so I'm guessing it's going to be kind of like what we had on the phone, where when you have your finger on the screen, it will, you know, you'll have a cursor now. So I'm guessing when you use the left analog, I'm guessing, will be the cursor, and then you have the A button to select things, and then the right trigger will also select things. That's what I'm gathering from that. And it looks like that's only for the camera system, which is pretty nice. So that is the PS4 controller. Now we're going to move on to the Xbox One controller. Okay, so Xbox One, here we go. The left bumper pulls up the monitor and the red bumper uses the mask. Same exact layout as the PS4 one. The left stick turns everything off. By the way, I don't think I've mentioned this, but you can press down on the sticks, by the way. There are non-console players. When it says all off for the stick, you can push on the sticks. So that's what it means. D-pad looks to be the exact same. Top D-pad closes the forward vent, left D-pad closes the left door, right closes the right door, and down closes the side vent. The menu returns to the menu again. The Y button, change music, B, cancel, A, flashlight, X, catch fish, close, add, and wind the music box. Turning down on the right stick will turn on and off the desk fan. And then left trigger and up or down on the D-pad. Again, you've got power gens, solid ventilation, heater, power AC, glow music box, and all off. And then the monitor is the exact same as the PS4 one. Use the cursor and A button or the right trigger and select with left and lock. Oh wait, maybe I got that wrong. So you use the cursor by moving around the stick. The A button or use right trigger and select with the left and lock. Am I stupid? Oh I don't know, I understand what they're saying. I think it's use the cursor and the A button or use the right trigger and the and lock stick. The left and lock.  I don't know why I'm having such difficulty with that direction. This is exactly the same as the PS4 controller. They just kind of swapped out the model so yeah, moving on to the Nintendo switch now. Okay, so this switch is being held in handheld mode, but it's going to work the exact same, I'm sure, when you have it as the actual controllers. I'm guessing there's no way, no how in the history of ever that you can play Custom Night with only one Joy-Con, so I'm pretty sure two are going to be required. I don't know if it's going to let you play with a pro controller. Maybe? Maybe? Maybe not. That's a question to ask Clickteam. So everything looks to be the exact same, you got the left button, use the monitor, the right button, use the mass, press down to the left stick, you turn everything off, the up button closes the forward vent, left button closes the left door, right button closes the right door, down button closes the vent, or the side vent, sorry. The plus button returns to the menu, X, catch fish, close add, Y, music box, okay so things are flipped here, which is interesting, A, flashlight, B, cancel, Y, change music. Everything down on the right stick turns the fan on and off, and then you have ZL button and up or down button.  It's the exact same thing, just with different labels for the different controls, different buttons on the controllers. So here you got use the cursor and the A button, or use the ZR button and select with left stick. That is all of the controls. Now I don't know they have yet to release a official release date for these ports, but I'm going to look at it, I'm going to look up because we did get Ultimate Custom Night mobile controls and then after some time we got the actual game. So if I can find out what that gap of time was, maybe we can make a rough estimate, but you also have to keep in mind that they're still working on sister location and pizza sim for consoles. Okay, so we got the shortcut buttons for UCN Mobile on March 9th and then we got the actual port released for iOS and Android on April 29th. God, I've already forgotten, April 28th. That's a little under two months, so one or two months I would say. So pretty soon, so keep an eye out. I would expect maybe they're going to release more information, a couple of screenshots. They definitely are going to release a trailer, I'm pretty sure, because that's what they've done for all the other ports. Maybe they're going to release a trailer for the console ports. I'm not entirely sure, but I would say one or two months we're going to expect the console ports for Ultimate Custom Night, which is really exciting. I'm really excited to play it because we kind of already stopped playing UCN Mobile because we got 8,000 points. And from that point onward, the game's not really fun anymore, you know, it's kind of lost its charm. All that's left to do is either go for the silver statue and get 9,000 or just go to 5020 and try to beat it. So yeah, we're not having the best of times with UCN Mobile, but it's fine, you know. We got a good like three episodes out of it. So yeah, I am really excited. Hopefully you guys are too. If there are any PS4, Xbox One and Nintendo Switch owners out there, tell me what you guys think of these controls in the comments down below because I do not own a PS4 or an Xbox One. So I need you guys to help all these good controls. Do you guys wish they were slightly different? What do you guys think? But that's going to be it for me in this video. So thanks for watching. I hope you enjoyed. I will see you all on the flip side. Goodbye.


So what about routine? Like can we actually do anything while in a meltdown? Yes we can and those things tend to be things that we do all the time like in normal life we do that we do them all the time like going on your phone and playing a mindless game or for me going on my phone and writing and making up scripts for a video or like making up different posts and you know things of that nature those things are things that I've done a lot so I'm able to do that even if I'm having a meltdown because usually they do a lot to kind of calm me down and that's all because it's part of my routine things that are not part of my routine I'm gonna find excessively difficult just to give you a bit more of a list to go off these things can be for me writing mobile games drinking eating going to the toilet even editing sometimes


Hi, welcome to the cloud native SIG for Jenkins. We're discussing some GSOC admin and answering any questions that you have about GSOC or any of the initiatives that we are involved in. So welcome, Aditya. Do you have any questions? Great, welcome. One of the things we were just discussing is the thinking how we can bring the Texan Client Plugin project forward as a mentoring program. So hopefully we'll get that done. What has been done recently in the Texan Client Plugin? I feel like there's continuous work being done on it and I have not been able to track it. I hope the time. James Racken added some, he did put in some PRs to get the Texan Catalog stuff working. It uses tech pipeline, which is a binary that's kind of bundled into the plugin itself, which I think is okay. For short term, I think longer term, we probably want to make an actual implementation of that. But for the time being, I think we're probably okay. We may well have issues running this on funny architectures. Like if someone tries to run this on ARM, I'm pretty certain it's not going to work at the moment. But yeah, it is good. What we have there is really good and it does work. And then we're trying to work out how to get it into a pipeline at the moment. We actually have it working as a local PR pipeline, which is quite nice. Although there are some issues with the code when it comes to locating files in the remote workspaces, which need to chat to some people about understand that a bit better. But yeah, it's progressing. It seems to be working. And then get P29 stuff is working really nicely to release it each time. So for me to understand, Tecton has been added as a binary within. So Jx pipeline has been added as a binary inside the repo. And what we do is we extract that out and then call it wherever it's being run from. And that influences your pipeline. It reviews the users syntax. So you can do this kind of pipeline library stuff, which is really nice. I know James has added a proposal to add this, add that kind of functionality into Cortecton. So it could just be a temporary thing. And then in a few months time, as that proposal progresses, it may be something we want to remove or re-implement something like that. As a sort of temporary solution, yeah, it's working really good. James put a blog on that. That was this week's episode. That's really nice. I think that's actually being published now. Yeah. How would you re-implement it? What would you do? So if it's something that is going into Cortecton, then I would expect Cortecton itself or the Cortecton controller to handle that. Just asking if it's a blog. This is a PR. Yeah. I'm not sure actually. I'll have a look. Yes, it could well be. For the implementation, this is the... So that's the implementation. Okay. So it's not all of it because that pipeline does a number of things around version streams, which is like the next level of complexity really. It's very, very nice, but version streams don't make sense inside Cortecton at the moment. So he was working on how to sort of chop that bit up, to use it in a way that is just... It's something that's usable for everybody. So it doesn't have to deal with credentials and all that kind of stuff. So when it comes to... If that gets into a new tech on release, and so I think all we will really need to do is remove the logic on our side that does that enhancement. I think we'll just be able to use just the updated tech on release and it should support that out of the box. Great. And by support that out of the box, sorry, I'm trying to get this right in my mind. Would that be support version streams right out of the box? Is that... So just the notion of this kind of like composite tasks, I think that's what he's calling it. So it's the ability to... You can define pipelines in other resources and other images and then refer to them with the ability to override certain steps. And those... That's the way over. It's a bit like the kind of pipeline library. So in Jenkins, well, in theory, you could implement pipeline libraries as tech on. As these tech on composite tasks and depend on a version set of those, which would be really nice. You could centrally manage them and do whatever it is you need to do, but with also providing the ability to just override the bits that you want. And that's within running a tech on pipeline run or running within... Sorry, I'm just trying to get the linking of what is being inserted where. So the way that it kind of works at the moment is that we're either assuming you're running Jenkins on a Kubernetes cluster, which has tech on installed, or you have in some way configured access to that. So it knows about how to get to the Kubernetes cluster. So all what we're really doing is we're locating the task or the pipeline whatever the tech on resources and we're creating it in that cluster. And then if there are logs or anything like that that we do, we stream them back. So that's the current way of doing it. So in more of a real world scenario, you may be running these in two different clusters that might be referred. You'd certainly run them in separate namespaces. So you're creating a new set of tech on resources and tech on would be installed in a different name space from Jenkins. And then it's a case of just monitoring the status of those jobs, the completion and feeding back. Vibhav, how does this fit your vision for this? Because you've been involved from the very beginning and just curious what your feedback is on how this is iterating forward. It was actually great. It is actually great to see that we can right now just give a reference to some task, like one of the catalog tasks and just build the pipeline from there. So yeah, that is great. But I am still thinking like how this would be could be made cleaner probably because as Gareth you said like this, I don't know if this how this will work out in the long term, with the binary being there in the plugin. So, but I think this is really, really good to start with to use like catalog tasks. Probably at some point what we could do is we could query the catalog API and pull tasks from there. And I think there is some work going on in Tecton to make this easier. Not exactly the catalog, but about pulling pipelines. To reference pipelines, you should be able to reference them from anywhere. Like if I have like pipelines stored in like some some place, I should just be able to give the URL to the pipeline. And it just, it doesn't have to download it, but it just like refers there. And like it starts using it from there. There is some work going on regarding this upstream. This is if this works out, it will be like very cool because then at that point from like a Jenkins pipeline, like it would just say, okay, I need to use this catalog task. And I want to make a task and out of this. And yeah, it would be very nice to see. Yeah. Karima, sorry, go on. I think that would be like a long way down. Currently, I think, so, Gareth, you open the PR for the creator of pipeline, right? So this is, yeah, this will directly go into this Jenkins files, no? Yeah. So, yeah, I'll just pick up here on the charts. I'm just trying to get my, I'm trying to work out. So I've got, I've got like a kind of integration test that's using the Jenkins rule. And, and the Kubernetes server as a rule. And then it changed, it creates a real change, change them together, but I'm trying to work out how to configure the tectonic client aspect of that in the unit test. So that I'm actually, because what happens at the moment is when I run the test locally, it actually creates the tasks in my own Kubernetes. Oh, I was like, this is working. Why is it not working when I push it up to GitHub? And then for the life of me. Are you passing the cube context? I'm not passing it. I think it's using my default cube context. I think at this point, like what we'll have to do is we kind of have to put, probably put like cube context and then, but yeah, this is, this is awesome. Like this is, this is really cool. Like now we can just run pipelines directly off of plan. Nice. Okay. I can't wait for this to get more of them. Yes, it's not, there's, there's some issues with it. And when it runs on a remote agent, it can't find the task that I have actually extracted in the local workspace. So there's some logic in the code that isn't quite working. But I'm just going to, I'm just going to keep on iterating on this. I've kind of been given the whole player to get this all request or stop. So that's good. So yeah, this is what I'm, this is what I'm going to be doing for the rest of the day, right? If, if that is the issue that's happening, do you think that when we run, or if we run one of these Jenkins files in the future with the feature that we're talking about just before this, with the JS, JS pipeline effective, like if we had to run the Jenkins file pipeline with some, with the code that is using JS pipeline effective on an agent. So in that case, also we will need to have the binary on the agent, right? Yes. Yeah. So I mean, and there are multiple ways of doing that, I suppose. I mean, you could just say that people need to install the binary on the agent that they, they're running on. So yeah, that's one option. Another option is to try to. I think it might sound a little too weird, but can we serialize the binary and then execute it from Java and then? Yes. So that, that's what, that's actually what's happening in a moment. It's whether or not we can copy the binary and the right binary onto the agent to execute it. But that is, that is also an option. There is a, Jenkins has a way of doing that. I think there's like a, I think it's called the master slave callback that you can write that does often does this stuff. As well as one area they haven't renamed you actually. Just think, God, I hope that's renamed. And there is a good initiative happening to up everything. Yeah. So I think there's, in terms of the renaming, they're starting off doing everything that's kind of visible in the UI, but then there's actually a lot of code in there that if they rename that, that is going to break an awful lot of plugins. So like eventually it's, yeah, they possibly need to like change the hierarchy of classes so that people can start including the right one and deprecate that. But we know that Jenkins plugins are built off really old versions of Jenkins. So, yeah. Is it, is it still possible to like send the deprecation notice? Like, have you guys kind of done that kind of thing? I know Jenkins is huge and have you ever kind of done that kind of deprecation for an APM? Yes.  Certainly. So one of the PRs that I tried to, I just pushed up, it isn't, there is something else going on with this Kubernetes mock client that I need to have a look at but it was based on the recommendation from Jesse to upgrade the core Jenkins version that we built a plugin against because there is a different series of kind of APIs that you can call. So it's like you get the perform method but without the workspace. So it means you can kind of run it. This is meant to be much better anyway. So that is a potential thing. But if you have a look at the code there, most of the functions are deprecated but they still have to exist because all plugins still build against those versions. That reminds me of something I read about while starting off with plugin development. Is there a way to safeguard like plugin out, like if we have maybe like a change in UI and the plugin, is there a way to kind of like safeguard the actions that are happening from like because like some feature or something got deprecated, like how do we manage that on a plugin level so that it doesn't break users if we deprecate something like on a cosmetic level, not on a functional level? Yeah. So I think I'm not sure if this will completely answer that question. But so in Jenkins core very little code is ever removed. You always kind of overload the methods with the new ones that you need. And so the old working versions, even though they're marked as deprecated, still exist. And they might delegate on to the new methods or something. There is a way of wondering it, but it's quite strict in terms of, yeah, you don't really want to remove code from that. I think there's a really good wiki page called like the prime API directive and it goes over these kind of things. Like so when you're changing APIs, where APIs are Java code, you know, what you can and can't do to them to make sure that they're forwardly and backwardly compatible. So if I can find that, I'll put it in the chat. Yeah, can you please? Yeah, it's from the, it's not the Eclipse pages. But it's valid. It's not just Java based API. It's the same as the case and the same is true with pretty much everything. Yeah, this will be, this will be very helpful. I haven't actually studied this part of API development. It's something that the spring frameworks being quite good at. Like they're very good at not, they'll mark things as deprecated for a quite a long time until they produce a new major release and only on those major releases are they actually removing those functions that are there. And even then it's, they always remove them straight away. You might find that people in the community are saying, no, it's too much effort for me. I can't upgrade to the latest version because it would be too much effort for me to enjoy this and they leave them in for a bit longer. It's, it's either if the developer is or like the release team is lazy to take care of the bugs that will come. Yeah, it's, I have noticed this like deprecation is always like, if they say something is deprecated, but it's actually in use for like a longer time. Like no one really goes to the newer versions. I think with, is this discussion at the moment about potential Jenkins 3, isn't it? That's happening. And that would be very interesting to understand are there, is there a, is there going to be a policy removing a lot of deprecated codes for the Jenkins 3 release? As if you're following proper semantic version, this would be the perfect time to do it. Yeah, it would be a very good moment. I, I have seen the proposal for that and it's very interesting and really great for Jenkins. Really exciting. I don't know how much bandwidth there is in that or in general for actually doing a big deprecation. So even though semantically it would make sense, I don't know if you practice that many of the changes or group changes. Yeah, it's a very good issue to raise actually at this moment. If we, if would you go with Jenkins 3 because yeah, so it's a good time to do it. Is that a proposal piece like a white paper or something like for Jenkins 3? Um, I'm not sure. I'm not, I think it's something that's being mooted. I can look into to, um, so I'm not sure even how much public leads. I will, I will get you a copy. This is sort of it. I will see, um, yeah, I have to circle back on that. Is it, I think it might be a proposed topic in the next interview to summit. Yes. Um, yeah. So the, yeah, the idea is to be sharing it. So, um, but it's a very, it's a, it's a new initiative. So that's why it's just actually check how much is public. But yes, we, we definitely are going to want, um, feedback obviously from the community. What would be nice to see is if the next version of Jenkins probably is corpus able, I don't know. What is, what is the support right now for Jenkins within corpus? The last time I remember it wouldn't compile, like I tried compiling it with corpus. Yeah, it was, I think it was like a year and a half ago. I didn't have much luck with it, but it would be nice to see Jenkins be compiled with corpus. I'm wondering if, yeah, I have a feeling that Jenkins relies quite heavily on reflection and that may be a bit of a, I'm sure it's not that or at least some of the libraries that it uses. So reflection is the main issue because of which it doesn't happen. Yeah, you have to, this, I can never remember which one's which, but like, you have to like register for reflection. Had it at compile time that this can, this class can be used for reflection so that it can do that. Otherwise, yeah, you can't just do it for everything like you can with the normal behavior. If Jenkins 3 does compile, like what do you think would be like the main features and stuff, like changes would come, it probably would have to be mostly in the engine rate. Yeah, so I actually don't know and I don't know whether it would be be more of a marketing release or an actual like functional breaking chain release. But I suppose that these are the things that will come up in the contributor summit, like so, when we, when they start having conversations there. I know that we've had quite a few sort of requests from the community to release it as a, like even like what we have today as a Jenkins 3 because we're on, we're on 2.289, so it implies like 289 minor changes that have gone on. So it's, it's quite a long way from 3.0 and they feel it would be quite a good marketing push if we release something as 3, but technically you'd probably want to use that 3.0 to remove or upgrade certain components. Yeah, 289, I'm not, when did Jenkins 2 release exactly? Quite a few years ago. I know that, I know that there are still some plugins that are built against version one, one but something that any, any code that was removed or would be removed is potentially the plugins that aren't maintained. Just, just a quick shout out for the contributor summit. It's on the 25th of June and is essentially part of CDCon, which you should all sign up for because it's going to be awesome. And I put a link in the chat to the contributor summit and there is a draft agenda, but it is still looking quite draft, but that, that does mean you are more than welcome to add topics that you would like to be added to the agenda. And there, yeah, I would imagine that Jenkins 3 is going to definitely feature quite largely in that. So it would be fantastic to have your involvement and input and proposals. So during CDCon, will this be like a separate session, like an long session or something? Yeah, it will be at a separate time as well. So it's, it's adjacent to CDCon, but it's, so you will not have to miss CDCon talks to, to participate in it. Yeah. I think it's the day after CDCon and it's an associated summit. There's actually a number of really good summits that are happening around there around CDCon and connected with CDCon. There's a get up summit too, which should be really fun to look into. I'll put a link in the chat for CDCon and I'll put it for, I mean, it's on these lines as well. I think it's like CDCon, get up summit and like one other summit that are happening, like they are co-located, right? Yeah, I mean, co-located, co-located means something, you know, it's, it's a bit sadder now, we're still in the virtual world, but yes, these are, these are essentially co-located events with CDCon. Yeah, thanks for reminding me about, I haven't seen the sun in like, I think, yeah, so CDCon is from June 23rd to 24th. Here's the registration link, stick that in our chat. Can I circle back and ask a, a basic question on the TechTron client plugin, as it's currently configured, are there any limitations on what, from the TechTron catalog you can bring into a Jenkins pipeline? Well, as far as I know, the TechTron catalog that comes with the binary is the, is basically the one that can be used. So there's no, I don't think there is any, like remote calls to the binary, sorry, remote calls to the catalog. Not through the Jenkins interface or not through the Jenkins controller anyway. I'm assuming you could always install catalog items manually in the namespace that you have TechTron running and then refer to them. Yes. But I mean, it's something that I haven't, I haven't tried, but there's no reason why that wouldn't work. No, but it's pretty straightforward, like using those catalog tasks, you know. Yeah. Like initially, how I was thinking catalog would work out is, like we kind of just store all, store the entire catalog, like all the YAML files, which is, I don't know how great of an idea it is, but kind of just store them with the resources in TechTron client plugin. And we kind of, you know, sync the catalog once in a while, like once every day, probably to like keep it updated. And what we can do in the create task, like create raw, probably we can give one of the items in the catalog over there, like just reference it, have like a drop-down money or just actually just reference it from there and then, you know, allow users to use it. That was, that was a much simpler idea that I thought of using of the way we could use catalog tasks. But yeah, J's pipeline effective is, is also a good solution. Actually, the way it kind of unwraps the pipeline is, is much more helpful for the users. But the problem that I see there sometimes is like once it unwraps the pipeline, it looks, it looks a little confusing, like if you have to go and change some variables, there's a lot of stuff to look at. So if, so it'll be nice to just like kind of reference the catalog task on there. Yeah, but I mean, that sounds pretty sweet. Actually, when properly, like when fully implemented that you could be able to reference any tecton task. That's awesome. Yeah, actually, we can, we can do it right now, if I'm not wrong. We can, we can do it right now. We can reference any tecton task. It's like an ad, like you have to kind of give an ad slash something and the location of the task that is that you want to use. Yeah. But it's, it's there right now, but I think it will be, it will still be like a long time until we kind of change the implementation completely. I think what we have right now is also pretty, pretty good. So recently, so the last thing I had worked on the plugin was being able to give different contexts, I think, or like not context, like Kubernetes context, like which cluster would you like to run this tecton task or like pipeline? So I was able to implement that on the global plugin configuration side, but I needed some help with referencing that in the job itself. So I was able to reference that, but the data that comes back from a global plugin configuration isn't updated. Like if I go back to global plugin configuration and see that okay, these things are here, but I'm not able to reference anything apart from default in the, in the job. So I'm, I have to work on this. So after merging it, I opened a bug with this. Gareth, do you have, could you help me out of this probably later on next week or something? Yeah, I'm out, I'm out on Monday, but I can probably do something outside of that. I think that may even be the bit that I'm looking at now with the pipeline stuff, because I'm, I'm trying to tell it the great tasks in the mock server, not, not the one with the current cube conflict that I'm connected to. So it could be very similar, whatever the solution is. Actually, can you also try, considering you're already working on this, this part, can you also try like creating a pipeline step from the, the create draw has that part where you can give the context. So probably if you can define it in a pipeline and then pass it on to the context and create draw and in create draw itself, you give like which cluster to use and which, which namespace to use, probably we can start there. And this would be, this would be good. That, that would probably work also. Yeah. What I'm thinking is like how so what I've done is I had made the, made the array for the cube configs global. And I tried to reference that from the, from the job. And it only takes, so it seems like the state of the array is what it was initially, and it is, it is like localized only to global plug-in configuration. Even if I thought it was global. So something, something related to scope that needs to be fixed. So in the, in the middle of two weeks, I was just thinking about like how, how we could probably use this plugin, you know, to just kind of run entire Jenkins pipelines, like in, in the pipeline, I basically give like a Jenkins file and that entire Jenkins file execute start, execute tasks on tech-con. I was thinking how this probably would work with DSL. So once I was thinking if the DSL gets to a point where it is like we, we are able to nicely give things like, like define an entire pipeline, we could probably write an example where all of the, we have different Jenkins tasks and all of them are running in the tech-con pipeline. But then I was thinking of the OpenShift Sync plugin and I was thinking that in OpenShift Sync plugin, they have something called build config and builds. So build, so what happens is exactly build configs are synced into, into the Jenkins, into Jenkins as jobs. So I was thinking if the, if it would make sense to do something similar of syncing tasks and task runs, or sorry, pipelines and pipeline runs in Jenkins. So if I have like a pipeline and sync it in Jenkins, that means that, that pipeline would be completely converted to a, that pipeline would be completely converted to like a Jenkins file. And that would mean like we need to have like a DSL ready at that point. I was thinking if, like it sounds like it's possible, but the hurdle for this one is the DSL. So at, so at that point, what, what, what is possible for us to do is just like write a Jenkins file completely written in the pipeline step with Tecton client plugin. And then we can execute or like if we install Jenkins on a Kubernetes client, which is also if we install Jenkins on a Kubernetes server and we turn on the Tecton whatever sync plugin probably and it will sync all of the tasks and task runs into, into Jenkins.  I just, I just like blurted out, yeah, but I was thinking about this the other day. What do you guys think? Yeah, I mean, oh no, sorry, I just, I mean, yeah, it's just, it sounds like a good, sounds like a good idea. For me, I think the kind of most important thing is to get this to a point where like it can be used in the community and we start getting feedback and people sort of like real world use cases of how people actually want to interact with the Tecton client plugin. I think that would be really cool because at the moment it's, it's hard to see how people would want to use this. We know why they would want to use it, but it's hard to see how they're actually where to go about, like what things do they need to, I don't know. I have a feeling that we'll get like a probably a good spike in usage once we have the DSL ready, like to some extent, because then I'm slowly understanding the fact that not a lot of people are directly used. There are a lot of users for it probably, but like the ease of use with Jenkins file is much more. So if there is a way to like turn this thing around, it's like probably have like good Jenkins file integration, which will come through DSL. And before that, and I think, I think at that point it would be like quite easy.  Yeah, that should be fine. When is that DevOps world? That's I don't know when it is, but the deadline is on May 20th, I think. Yeah, that'd be cool. We'll, yeah, we'll sync up on that. My question was much higher level and conceptual and you a bit addressed it in your last comment. So for this idea, what you would be doing is something quite, quite different. You'd in fact be taking a Jenkins pipeline and the Jenkins file for that using the syncing plugin and be able to take that and then run that with Ntecton. So it's the inversion. It's just like the flip. Yeah, so basically exactly. Yeah, so I would, it would be not really, not run it. It's like, it's like, I would be able to see all my, it would be like a alternative dashboard to Ntecton in a way. Maybe it comes off incorrectly because what this means is when the tasks and task runs, the pipeline, pipeline runs are synced. So what will happen is they'll be synced by namespace. So there'll be a project Jenkins project called with the namespace name and the job in the namespace will be like a pipeline. Like it'll be, now that I think about it, it should be like one of the, okay, I'm confusing myself between like job and project. So it should probably be like, if you go into a Jenkins job, I should go there and see that, okay, this is the Ntecton pipeline which ran. And then if I go off, like this is the pipeline run which happened. And if I press build again, it runs the Jenkins file, which is running the Ntecton pipeline run. Like we're just triggering the Ntecton pipeline and creation of it. And then after that, I should see all the results back in Jenkins. So it's kind of like the sync plugin calls the client plugin in a way. I'm just thinking like whenever we do that sync and the pipeline runs get converted to Jenkins files, like how that will happen. It's because it seems, that is the one hurdle that seems to be there. Did anything I say made sense? I felt like I just blurted out over there. No, that was, that was very good. I can't answer your question, but it was a very good explanation. I did, Gareth, did you see this? I think there was once a PR for Ntecton about running Jenkins or Jenkins jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm just wondering about how that relates to your idea and how much of a lab or how, if it can form it or That idea is also similar as to what it does is it, so Ntecton will have like its own new controller. And that means it's that controller will be running in its own port. And then it will. So once we created Ntecton, there will be like a Ntecton, what like a Ntecton resource called Jenkins job, which is actually, which is a Ntecton resource. And this Jenkins job will trigger or like, it will, it will do something on Jenkins and then wait for that, whatever process it is to like get over and come back to the controller. Usually what happens is that there's like multiple ports for like each of the pipelines. So in this case, that won't happen. All the controller would be doing is like triggering and watching those tasks and probably have like something of a queue to manage, you know, keeping keeping in touch with those Jenkins jobs, which are happening. So that's the idea basically behind it. So it's basically calling Jenkins from Ntecton and managing it with like a Kubernetes controller. Yeah, it just feels like everyone's trying to run everything.  Interop is just LEGOs, I feel. Yeah. And then to get this point, like, it's really fun to build things, but then it's like, okay, and how can I actually take this new toy and play with it in the real world? But you know what's interesting? Ntecton initially, I think as they started considering like abstraction and composability was such a big thing with the jobs and tasks and all itself. But I mean the task pipelines and the way it's created, I don't know, it will slowly build towards this like more interoperability and having something like a plugin mechanism because plugins were initially discussed quite a bit in Ntecton, but slowly the discussion moved to, you know, doing so the idea of plugins and how it would be implemented. There was no such decision made on that as such. So that's why the catalog project started in the first place because tasks are usable. And if we give tasks, which can be just used by, and just some parameters need to be given, that would be cool, right? So that's how it kind of like started the catalog thing. But if you notice or to actually extend the engine to support something somewhere else, there is a need for doing something like this that has been mentioned in the Ntecton experimental issue that you're talking about right now, where like there needs to be a different controller entirely. And this controller needs to then watch for a resource like Jenkins job. And probably on the Jenkins, on the Ntecton side, this is the way that would be taken for, you know, extending Ntecton. Because I think we've built it with extensions in mind. Sorry. That's good. For when we're looking at cloud event data, which Ntecton is supporting and Jenkins might be supporting, is that would that also be a way to link up very disparate pipelines? Could that be another alternative way to go between Ntecton pipelines, Jenkins pipelines, Ntecton pipelines? Like however you want to do that. Am I understanding that? And then you could have a Kubernetes controller, which would watch for the different events. Does that make sense? Yeah. Actually, yeah, well, what the Kubernetes, I was, I was thinking about this before, like you could just, you know, have like an event queue on the Jenkins controller on the other side. And then that event queue on Ntecton would kind of do all this, like manage stuff on Jenkins through cloud events. I don't know, like, probably we'll have to pass like a lot of data. And like, how will the event thing in that case work? Like, I'm not sure. Like, okay, Jenkins job event created. And the job event cloud event goes to Jenkins. And Jenkins is listening on this and probably like it will create, like it will create the job, it will start a job based on the data in the payload, which will be a Jenkins file. It could probably work, work something like that. And then the controller and the whatever the cloud events plug in, then we will talk together managing this stuff. It could work like that as well, probably. I'm just thinking about love. Yeah, no, no. Are you attending the event stick for the continued server foundation? Okay, I have, I have not, I've just been busy and unfortunately I haven't been as much as I would like to. I'll probably be attending more in the future. But I know that they do want more input from the Jenkins community. I may have pinged you about this. Yeah, they would like more input on, I guess, the data definitions that we feel we need. I just think you'd be a really great resource for that. Yeah, I, in the morning, I did see a message. I do need to reply to it. I'm not sure, I'm just not sure, like should I reply privately as well as publicly? Yeah, that's fine. That's great. That's fine. Yeah, but I'm very excited for the cloud events proposals and what's, what's going to come. I'm very excited to see like the infrastructure that will be spun up to test cloud events because it's, it's something it's, it's more of a, so the implementation itself isn't very hard. But what is, what would be interesting is to like how, how the students will use it. Yeah, I agree. It's a very exciting project. I have let this, we have had a good conversation. I've let this meeting drag a little bit. Just time wise, it's taken a more time than I had expected. But thank you for a great, like really great discussion today. That was really helpful for me and hopefully for others and really enjoyable. Do we have any last, any questions or any other issues to discuss? Anyone want to bring up anything that we have missed so far? Okay, great. Thank you all for being here today. We'll see you at the next cloud events. I mean, so much more in mind. Gladly to say we'll see you next week. Thanks.


How long did I have idea of Alkabox built in your mind? Man, it's like it was a progressive piece It's the thing about software people don't often times understand they think you know you think of a full product from end to end You try to go out there and you solve one problem at a time One problem at a time one problem at a time like I'll give an example one of my main problems back in the day was Particularly like where SMLK timing lines came from often times I would be right about price, but I would be off on time be like man I could have taken less heat if I just waited a little bit longer I need something on my chart That would force me really force because you really can't force, but I needed a visual cue To kind of give me the a okay Go in another one would be I used to jump in on one leg and pull backs all the time like oh I get a big leg down or in direction and I'd like jump it trying to like pop in on it And so I came up with the no no flamingo's rule like Flamingos are the only birds that can stand on one leg everything else needs two legs two or four right bipeds quadpeds So well, what is that? That's a Elliott wave two legs. So the favela dot came out of Out of that, but I didn't want just two legs. I wanted some other stuff, too So it's like okay two legs plus multi-fib Then went from that to more it's like, okay. Well, I want that Plus overbought oversold on a lower time frame Plus so, you know, it's it's a continuous Plus one types


Good afternoon everyone. It's a pleasure to welcome you all to our webinar. My name is Paola Rivetti. I'm an associate professor in Dublin City University here in Dublin, Ireland. And so we're really fortunate and we're really delighted to welcome you all to this double IEA event. Today we're very happy to be joined by Tahrase Perifar, who's a researcher in the Middle Eastern North African Division at Human Rights Watch, who's been very generous to take time out of our busy schedule to speak to us today on International Women's Day. Tahrase will speak to us for about 15, 20 minutes or so, and then we will go to our Q&A session with our audience. So you will be able to join the discussion using the Q&A function on Zoom. You should see that on your screen. And please feel free to send your question throughout the session as they occur to you. Feel free not to wait for the official beginning of the Q&A session. We will come to them once Tahrase has finished her presentation. But as I said, you're very welcome to let us know what questions you have as soon as you have them. So a reminder that today's presentation and Q&A are both on record. Feel free to join the discussion on Twitter using the handle at double IEA. We are also live streaming this afternoon's discussion. So a very warm welcome to all of you who are tuning in via YouTube. So I'd like now to briefly introduce our distinguished speaker today and then hand over to her. Sara Seperifar is a researcher in the Middle East and North Africa division where she investigates human rights abuses in Iran and Kuwait. Here to join in Human Rights Watch, she was a deputy director at the Human Rights in Iran unit at the City University of New York, where she worked on a project supporting the mandate of the United Nations special center on the situation of human rights in Iran. Tara graduated from Sharif University of Technology in Tehran, Iran, and holds an MA and LLM degrees in international law from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Staffed University. Tara, please, the floor is yours. Thank you so much and thank you so much for your kind introduction. I feel obliged to begin by wishing everyone a happy March 8. And all those who have been fighting for a more equal world before us and are still doing it. I'm very delighted to be here on this day and talking about something that has captured the attention of the world. In September 2022, Iranian people led by women and youth, embarked on a new protest movement that has captured the attention of the world.  These are the images that began after the death in custody of a 22 year old Kurdish Iranian woman who was arrested by Iran's abusive morality police quickly spread to more than 100 cities and universities across the country and and calls for fundamental support were echoed across the board with generations of protesters, either joining the street protests or echoing it online. These protests were and are significant for so many reasons I think, first and foremost, the durability and the widespread nature of them. This was the first time that we saw protest in Iran, and after a very long time that happened both in major cities as well as smaller towns in minority areas as well as the center of the country. The protest, the protest duration were largely extended by university campuses joining the protest movement and holding protests for for months. The protests are also largely either less, which raises questions about leadership and and and how they can transform, transform power, but also allows for conversations to happen. At a very intersectional level about what it means to be part of the protest movement that is bringing generations of of protesters together from different background with different lived experiences. I think it's fair to say that the leading slogan of the movement woman life freedom has brought generations of demands that have been echoed by different protest movements in Iran over the past 20, 20 years to connect the question of individual autonomy and choice of dress code to the broader political political repression and and the struggle for civil and political rights, as well as economic justice together. Using compulsory a job as as a symbol of the protest and makes a lot of sense in the Iranian context it's harder to find an issue that is more that's more of a visible manifestation of how the the authoritarian nature of governance in Iran tries to control every aspect of the individual's life and how individual choices and can inherently be seen as political. In that sense, well the demands are much broader and are there are calls for fundamental change. The fight against compulsory job laws and they're very abusive enforcement in Iran really symbolizes that the brother struggle. But of course we've not arrived here over time Iranian people did not decide to take to take them to such widespread fashion in September of 2022 people have been organizing fighting and resisting oppression for decades. Actually Iranian women had to break from political parties and organize their own, their own protest movement in the early, early days after the Iranian Revolution in 79 when they when they stage protest against against compulsory job laws at the time that even more progressive political parties did not see as a priority. Over time, women's movement in Iran have tried to change discriminatory laws and practices through various ways in 2005 they launched a campaign called one million signature campaign. The campaign was aimed at changing discriminatory laws through legislative route. And that was one of the first organized collective movements in the country to to have the conversation about what it means to to tackle discriminatory laws that were actually under pressure at the time at the time of the revolution as avenues for legislative change and an elective power diminished within the structure of the Islamic Republic of Iran, women's rights movement also turned to various ways to impact the women who have worked on issues such as street harassment raising awareness about about the discriminatory laws and going about changing them through through public campaigning and and towards public opinions they have worked with businesses and private sectors to protect the women. Just past two, three years. Iran also went through a wave of me to movement imagine in a country that consensual sexual relationship is criminalized. This conversation have has moved forward so much that women came forward with account of abuse and sexual harassment outside accepted legalized avenues and forced a conversation in obviously selected elements of the society and and had had this conversation echoed in in academic and activism and circles. So, in that sense, when we when protesters come together around an issue and umbrella of women, women's rights and their centrality to the protest movement is the result of generations of civil civil society and and local discrimination and interaction with public opinion that has finally connected these dots. And in a country like Iran that there are very serious restrictions for freedom of expression and assembly digital space has been an integral part of public space I think in many countries. It's very difficult to separate what is what is digital space what is what is the physical space we have and what is digital these these spaces have really merged. And it's true in the case of Iran as well that many people use it not just for expressing their opinion but also for connecting but also, but also mobilizing collective action. And to put that just in context, and Iran Iranians connectivity to Internet drastically increased about 10 years ago when the previous administration allowed internet providers to provide the 3G and 4G internet on mobile phones that really expanded Iranians access to, to Internet and bridge some of the generational gap that existed in access to computer literacy and generally stable at home internet and it penetrated in areas that are more marginalized and allowed people to connect, connect online. When we talk about Internet usage in Iran, I think main usage for for ordinary people is actually using social media and messaging applications or for many people being connected online is synonyms to being able to use messaging and communication connecting to social media, being connected to family and the broader community. And this allowed this created space for women to also be part of the part of the conversation that have always been academic intellectuals but this really expanded access to many ordinary women who are small business owners, they were able to create create social media pages for their own business we have we have currently a lot of lifestyle bloggers social media influencers people will talk about different aspects of the lives of different parts of the country. It allowed for local groups to form around parents for schools, villages, organizing for for their local needs. And it also connected people across the country. It was much easier to see what life looked like for another person in it in a province removed from the center. And I think all of those were elements that then were used in this protest movement to unite protesters and allow for the conversation to take place at a more intersectional level. In this protest movement wall. The actions were taken in the street and it was an attempt to create an alternative reality, a life without compulsory dress code for many people and social media and the way used social media was was crucial and critical in amplifying recording and and and and preserving that that image so that the changes in lifestyle that had already was already on the way in the Iranian society you could trace it through Instagram, for instance, which was which is the most popular social media application in Iran and research shows that over the past two years has actually become much more political and people are using a lot more political content on it was was being taken out in the street but also preserved preserved again on social media. It allowed for creation of art, music and and different initiatives in support and framing of the demands of the protest and and of course, echoing it back to not just Iranians but also international audience in so many ways. And just as an example, for instance, well, a lot of attention was was paid rightly on protesters who were putting themselves at the front line and risking their lives and and we all know that the Iranian government responded it is to this protest with brutal force killing hundreds of protesters and arresting thousands. A lot of ordinary people public figures were also lending their supports through demonstrating acts of resistance online and offline and connecting them. One of the very memorable photos of the early days of the protest movement that I remember was, and was a woman who had taken her headscarf off and have gone to a less affluent neighborhood in Tehran and was having breakfast next to a table of men, but her friend. There was no commentary nothing a photo of that was was published on social media and gone viral and it was basically one person's attempt to solidify this alternative reality and echo that message back to the society. And something that you hear very often from protesters and people we talk to an activist is that courage is contagious and social media was utilized to solidify that image and broadcast it and gain solidarity. And I think a lot of needless to say, as I said, a lot of the organizing and mobilization at the very local level is also happening in digital space, because it is a leader less movement, first and foremost, as a result of the very aggressive nature. And many of these networks are kept at a very local level and at a very grass level, and not necessarily visible to outsiders but, but you can trace how women have tried to have their perspective, interjected in the protest movement. As I mentioned earlier minority areas have been very important in durability of these protests to the state. The city of Zahedan in Sistan and Balochistan province which is one of the most marginalized areas of the country, it's been holding continuous protest every Friday, after the Friday prayer and after the Friday prayers, and with the leadership of the local and they have experienced one of the most brutal crackdowns against protesters. This is an area that women experience various levels of marginalization to begin with they're not very visible in the society their role is not accepted. What was fascinating for me was that, even though these protests were capturing a lot of attention and for the first time the center was taking note of various aspects of Baloochi minorities including their culture, men dancing because in the mind, minds of someone who lives in the Iran, Balochistan is about poverty and trafficking and bordering, bordering Afghanistan and Pakistan and having a lot of securitized issues, while they were witnessing a very different aspect of Baloochi life. The women who felt Baloochi women felt eliminated and silenced in the protest movement that was being led by a society that's more conservative.  They issued statements, they put out their own narrative and basically trying to influence the conversation at the very local level that you cannot, if you want to lead on this movement, it has to be as a part of the broader, rather, conversation of woman life freedom, you can't eliminate women if you are not seeing it. We women, Baloochi women are fighting various levels of marginalization and discrimination and we want to be part of this. So, these are not immediately visible if you're looking at a macro look, but as soon as you get slightly deeper, there's a lot more to digest about how the space is actually provided for conversations at the horizontal way. And I think one note that is probably on the minds of many is like how's the situation right now in Iran. While the protest, the street protests that are the most visible form of this protest movement have slowed down and the anger frustration, the calls for fundamental change are still very much there. And those everyday struggles and everyday acts of resistance of people that have predated the movement, intensified through the movement are still continuing. The government that initially responded with heavy lethal force and arrests of thousands moved ahead with bringing capital charges against dozens of protesters in extremely unfair trials carried out for executions, and then issued some amnesty and pardons to number of protesters is now trying to reinforce laws and control in various ways, including compulsory job laws that are being discussed on various levels through economic repression and issuing fines through depriving people of access to social benefits, but nevertheless women are still persisting and from what we understand many are still refusing to wear a job and that they don't believe in and they see it as an act of resistance and they see this being connected to the broader movement. The person I mentioned who shared a photo of herself having breakfast after her photo went while she was arrested and spent some time in prison was released on released from prison on bail. Just last week, she posted another photo of herself but another group of friends, doing the exact same thing, just kind of demonstrating that the content, the continuity and the persistent of how they see the fight. And I think I will just add a few more sentence about how the Iranian government is repressing the digital space because that's everything I said is not invisible to Iranian authorities as well. Over the past decade, they have really tried to build in an infrastructure that allows them to control internet in various ways. And initial government response to the issue of internet in Iran was, was attempting to restrict and block platforms, such as Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, some of the earlier versions of social media. But the solution to that was always finding ways to circumvent censorship. Over the past, I think decade they have become much more sophisticated, looking at models such as the one that the Chinese government is leading, trying to create the infrastructure that would allow them to control and disconnect internet when they see the use. So over the past three years alone, we have seen much more sophisticated internet shutdowns during the protest. And we've also seen a huge push for creating domestic alternatives to social media platforms and messaging applications that are controlled by government. So right now when the internet is, is shut down in Iran access to global internet is shut down and that doesn't allow us to monitor it doesn't allow us to talk to people banking system pizza delivery that version domestic version of Uber still work in Iran. And that's the vision that the authorities ultimately have for the ultimate control of internet by tampering with tampering with price of internet tampering with access dependent by profiling different people. So I think the, the battle over how unrestricted internet access for Iranians can be preserved is one of the very important important fights for Iranian civil society and those were trying to support them and empowered them in envisioning the change that they wish to see. And so I think in that sense the battle for equal rights for women and women's rights is inherently tied to battle to this battle for preserving Iran Iranians access to internet and those are some of the areas that that a lot of us are focused on trying to to solve the equation of how to keep how to keep power on the side of people. And I think with that, I will end my remark and, and just open it up for a conversation because I shared the lots. Thank you very much that it was really interesting. Thanks for for being so generous with comments and for, you know, sharing all that you've shared. So I'd like to remind our audience that they can submit their questions through the Q&A box. So as soon as you have questions, please just include your name and affiliation. And while we are waiting for, you know, for some questions I actually have many but perhaps, you know, a first question to start off with is about the limitation of online or digital activism. You mentioned some of the limitations when you were talking about the strategies that the regime and the state is implementing to control, you know, who's going online, who's doing what online, and so forth and so on. I was also, you know, I would be interested in knowing your opinion about another perhaps limitation. Which is the, you know, the diffusion of news and the diffusion of information that might, you know, might be regarded as some, you know, turning into some form of misinformation. And I'm thinking in particular to, you know, just something that has been happening right now in Iran with the poisoning of school girls. I'm sure we all have heard of and how, you know, there are so many conflicting reports on this that is really difficult to kind of, you know, to kind of understand what's going on and make an informed judgment about this. But I was also wondering what about VPNs. So I've heard a lot about them and people actually being able to kind of circumnavigate, you know, states restrictions of access to the internet so I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on how they work. Sure, I can, I can start with the first one and also answer the second one. So, I mean, I think we're at a stage and globally with social media that we're like okay we thought this was social media was for liberation we're also realizing that well but they might be some downside to it so globally we're trying to figure out and balance that the pluses and minuses of this expansive access to news and this horizontal level that that every citizen every person every account can participate in sharing of information circulating information and drawing conclusion. And generally the way we work in Iran because we are not underground. We don't have a presence underground the running governments not allow us to travel or be based there. We take a very conservative approach in documenting facts we review material that is available online including videos try to verify them geolocate them make sure that that date is correct and then we speak to and then says families of those who have experienced human rights violations to put the full picture together. And but then this landscape you have media you have social media influences you have this urge of wanting to report. And so you have various sources of information that makes documentation work more tricky. And another element of that I think is important to keep in mind is, and you also have state influence and various political agenda is influencing the Iranian intelligence I think being much more sophisticated in using this space. Initially, our understanding of internet let's say in 2009 protest movement was that okay you have the protesters online trying to use and trying to use internet to advance their cause and then you have government trying to restrict it. That has that landscape has completely changed. Their accounts affiliates with with government, both in official and in an official capacity and trying to be be present and lay out their narrative which is not necessarily the problem but over the past years I think they have also been a lot of misinformation and disinformation campaigns. There are a lot of research that points to the Iranian state back actors, or at least points the finger at them. And I think the goal behind it is not necessarily to prove one thing wrong or right is to cast doubt about the whole thing. It's, it's to cast doubt about the credibility of human rights groups documenting credibility of opposition media reporting on on Iran. So it's not necessarily that the misinformation is shared because they want to tarnish this specific person. What they want is for the people to ultimately conclude that this is too complicated. I know the troops and the way they've been much more sophisticated in in pushing targeted harassment and misinformation against entity groups and people who do this work which makes our work much more difficult. So the question that you raised about the very concerning reports of poisoning of hundreds of school girls across the country it's extremely concerning. There is authorities have come out suggesting a level of coordination and deliberate intent and which then only raises the alarm bill about who the perpetrators are doing something at such scale is extremely concerning. What is needed is impartial and transparent investigation and unfortunately Iranian government has a very this small track record of ever taking on these issues with the bigger and transparency that's needed. There are various waves of similar vigilante attacks on women or or violations that suggest involvement or some sort of support by those who might not be seen as descent. There are practices in the country that have never been investigated properly by Iranian government so we're in a situation that it is extremely important for prompt for prompt and transparent investigation to to share what they know, because this is happening and very harsh crackdown against protesters, including school children who took part in in particular took part in protest and schools were trying to control that for the first time we saw school children participating so it's causing a lot of anxiety along with children and their parents and in different areas we've heard that that it's already having an impact on on some girls not wanting to go to school because of the trauma. But nothing short of a transparent investigation can shed light and about the question of use of VPNs. VPNs have become a regular part of Iranian Iranians every day life, some of them described to you that we have like 12 different VPNs try to use them on a daily basis to see if we can connect to internet. So, VPNs allow allow for change of IP address and then basically find a detour for them to connect to to global internet. The problem when the global shutdown happens, you don't have any route outside Iran in order to connect to internet so VPNs work in regular situation when internet is restricted. But for situations of internet shutdown we need to think of more fundamental solutions you need to be able to connect to a computer outside the country through a computer inside the country you need to be connected to outside the country in order to so a lot of work and thought are being put into solving that problem but Iranian government is is advancing rapidly on being able to control the system. Thank you very much. So I'm gonna have two slash three questions. So perhaps I'm gonna, I'm gonna read the first two and then we proceed to the third one after you reply the first two. Helino Sullivan who's a researcher at the Institute. Thank you very much for your incredible insights today. As you outlined the younger generation have been using social media, but could you touch on how, or if the voices of older generations of Iranian women can be platformed on social media. Another question by Peter Gunning, former Irish ambassador and also a member of the Institute. Thank you for a very informative talk. As you said, the women's struggle has been joined to the wider mood of this, sorry, has been joined to the wider mood of this content in Iran. It's significant that establishment figures like Hotami and Mirosem Mirosem Musavi have spoken out on the protest and the need for at least some reforms. So, yes, I mean the new generation is grew up with social media they don't remember a world without smartphone. They know how to utilize it they're very good at creating rules and apps and using apps to create digital content. But because of restrictions on internet, a much larger group of people restrictions on free expression and also just restrictions on access to news and much broader group of people use social media to get their information. And I mean, a survey done domestically showed the shift from official news outlets, Iran State TV, domestic papers to social media following particularly following the 2018 and 2019 mass protests that were also brutally replaced. So you have the presence of other other generations but more as I think users than content creators. But they are also clearing insights online. It drives me crazy how much text, I need to read on Instagram, people share their articles, really long articles on Instagram and it's not a platform for text, but because it wasn't initially filtered and it has the capability of including political entertainment social fashion all of that in one in one setting. It has become the platform for having the conversation and so you have journalists you have older respect that human rights lawyers and advocates also sharing their articles in the comments on Instagram. And those are very insightful just not really easy to read. For the International Women's Day at Human Rights Watch we decided to interview a 51 year old woman in Tehran, who had joined the movement of not wearing a headscarving protest, and because and her insight of how she sees the struggle of the newer generation. And I've seen the tremendous amount of support among the older generation and and this duality of hope and pearl knowing that the capability of the government for repression but also hope for the new generation. And, and the people were in the streets have parents who remember early 2000 so each generation has kind of passed this struggle to the next and while the ones we see most vocal industry, maybe the youth, they are supported by their supported by their parents and grandparents who shares of the struggle on the question of domestic political forces. Every round of protest and this one was the most significant one you see more voices saying this situation is not sustainable for those who've been eliminated from power for those who've never been allowed to be part of power the situation is the same. But what you have is that over the past two decades, and the, the unelected authoritarian body of governance in Iran led by a truck home and he has continuously closed down the circle eliminating political forces in the previous elections, the presidential elections, they disqualified this spokesperson for the parliament and pave the path for election of current president everyone I see was accused of accused of participating in a very dark chapter of Iranian history and the execution of thousands of political prisoners in the 80s. So political forces have have been eliminated from the space for legislative reform, and yet they have everyone who's at the margin is still raising alarm bells. It is significant that the reformist voices are raising their concerns. What is not clear to me is that how much they enjoy popular support and Iranians have tried participation in the election to have multiple routes and they're in the face of, we've tried it all, this is not working. But from the way the authorities are responding to these statements you can you can tell that they still sense the potential power that forces from within can have and they're resisting it. I mean was saying that he has been under house arrest for the past and since 2011 for the past 13 years and, and as soon as his statement came out calling for a constitutional assembly and a referendum, and apparently the restrictions were tightened on his house arrest. So, from the reaction of authorities you see that they still see them as potential, but I think people are in the phase of trying the power of social movement to try to keep this very unequal power balance that has become more and more unequal over time. Thank you Tara. So we have two more questions. So the first one by growing your hands from the Department of Foreign Affairs, who asks, what can the outside digital world, including tech companies do to ensure voices from the digital activism movement in Iran are heard. And then we have another question, just one second from Karen Thornhill, actually two questions from Carol. And so the first one is, when Western governments support and arm repressive regimes in the region and dictatorship absolute monarchies and apartheid regimes. So does this undermine the credibility of the movement, and the second of the movement, I mean the inside movement of Iran I guess. And the second question is, what can be done to shake the perception that reporting in Iran is shaped by geopolitical motivated regime change operations, similar to those that have occurred. And the second question about the digital community. So, as I explained this move for restricting internet is shaped coordinated led by Iranian government. But broad sectoral sanctions and have also impacted the tech companies ability to provide certain kind of services to Iran and that was the after several years in the beginning of the process. And the US government issued a new general license that expanded the exemptions for tech companies to to to provide support to Iranians for communication technologies I can go into the details of what's the difference what it meant but essentially they expanded what constitute communication. So, many of the services cloud services platforms that communication can can be facilitated communication are now exempt under that. What we have been trying to do is to encourage and tech companies to to take advantage of that to the maximum level to do to make available the platforms that are essential for Iranians, but also finding ways to include Iran and Iranian in their general programming, which has a lot of restrictions because you can't have ads, you can't receive ads from Iran you can't receive money from Iran from the sanction which complicates a whole set of services that are typically provided through tech companies, but there's a lot that could be done, and to support the digital space in Iran from outside the country many of them are very technical, but it's important to prioritize and work collaboratively with activists in that space that are connected to people inside the country and and tech companies have more resources and more platform and more expertise to bypass some of these technical issues then let's say group of internet freedom experts at an NGO they're trying to do that so that partnership is very crucial and and and if there is interest that I'm definitely happy to get into it offline with anyone who's working on on that nature section. Usually providing arms to repressive states in the region geopolitics. I'm not going to say they don't exist because they're there and we're, we're, if I was speaking about the role that the West is playing in fueling the war in Yemen. I think most of it would be like the arms that are going in. So, the issue is, we are dealing with a region that is not being treated equally when it comes to human rights. Mostly Western governments have their double standards, have their in raising similar, not same similar patterns of human rights violations in various countries. What might result in a strong statement in Iran requires advocacy, much stronger advocacy to even have any, any impact in Egypt, like for governments raised in Egypt or Saudi Arabia or others, I don't want to dismiss that. But the way we work is that instead of saying because that exists it's a race to the bottom therefore we're going to discount. What's happening is trying to overcome that by applying the same standard across the board beyond beyond these borders, and also, I think what's important is to work on connecting Iranian civil society movement to the region. And globally, Iranian civil society is extremely isolated because of the repression and because of the geopolitical factors that often eliminates them from conversations that are happening at the regional level and happening globally. And in reality, I think there is a lot that could be exchanged with the region with Latin America with other countries are going other other movements are going through this. So, for me, in order to overcome the barriers of reporting and geo politicized narratives in Iran is try to break the isolation of those who are working on Iran, giving them access to information and peer support, extremely difficult. I'm not saying it's possible easily because it will be there will be the target of government crackdown, but that's how I envision. Otherwise, us sitting abroad are inherently acting as gatekeepers. I am the one explaining what's happening in Iran instead of someone who's been leading the process in Iran. That's reality. It's a burden on our shoulder but I think trying to break the barriers and making more connected will hopefully show the kind of opinion and the nuances of debate that can be discounted when it's when the geopolitical lens is immediately enforced on understanding Iran. Thank you Tara, if I may just add, you know, something in this I think there's a lot going on in Iran there's a lot of debates you know people are do. I mean, are debating what's the, you know, the head forward and, you know, the best way to, you know, to keep things going on how to deal with external pressure whether that's coming from Russia whether that's coming from the US and I think, you know, this also is tightly connected to what is happening in the diaspora which is, you know, a different conversation but has a lot to do, you know, at the same time has a lot of impact and of course has a lot to do with what people in Iran are discussing. I think this is this is extremely important and also perhaps keeping the focus and, you know, even just noticing that there's a, you know, there's a debate going on in Iran is a good way to, I think, put in perspective the existing and important, but still, you know, the I'm sorry, the influence and the presence of, you know, this geopolitical contrasting interests which are important are, you know, our presence they do have an impact but there's a lot also going on and apart from, you know, from from this geopolitical interesting, you know, interest and I mean, inter foreign interferences so I think there's, I mean, this, this is important but we often, we often, you know, run, have, I mean run the risk of, you know, placing our focus on what's going on outside and forgetting that there's a lot going on inside and perhaps that's, I mean that's more important. As you pointed out, Iranians are engaging with that question and are debating it. Just few weeks ago, there was a statement by 20 unions and feminist groups inside the country, pointing out a set of 12 demands that also included questions on Iran's international relations, nuclear appropriation, economic justice access to free education and healthcare as well as civil and political rights and minority rights so the debate is happening. And as you said, it being complicated by geopolitical factor should not be the reason that we don't, we won't try harder to see the polarity and the diversity and the nuances of it. And so in that sense, having this social media platforms allows for more access and more conversation, but also parallel conversations are happening so you need to, you need to actually pay attention to various aspects of the debate. Yeah, definitely. And just today there was another, another statement released by, you know, self-called coalition of women. So it's on Zamane website. Anyway, so we have a few more questions. So I'd like to go through them. I know we only have nine minutes, but I think it's important. So Kelino Sullivan from the Institute asks, what can those outside of Iran, how sorry, can those outside of Iran support this activism online in a meaningful way and keep the momentum going. We have a question by Seabash Sharif, who's a researcher at Tehran University, and he asked, ask you, Tara, please, to comment on the role of foreign interference in contributing to the ongoing issues in Iran so we kind of go back to this question. And then we have one final question by Carol. Have Western sanctions helped or hindered the freedom movement in Iran? Really easy ones, very straightforward. So how can they help? I think we started answering that question by suggesting the need to engage with the nuance of the debate that is coming from inside the country. So recognizing and acknowledging the complexity of being willing to commit to understanding and echoing voices is very, very important. I see a lot of, not in this movement actually, I think we've enjoyed a lot of support, but we sometimes see some of the progressive voices not wanting to enter the debate that in support of Iranian people because it gets complicated, it's not as straightforward. Putting that first commitment to engaging and understanding is very important and with every action that is being taken, either at the policy level or at the citizen level, what we're trying to, I think the way I look at the equation is that you have this very unequal power balance between Iranian people and a repressive government so what you want to do is to support and empower people. And when deciding about policy intervention, which will then get to the question, the two other question, if the intervention is putting enormous amount of harm on the power of people, you're defeating the purpose even if you were claiming that this is in support of people. Understanding how you frame the equation and how you frame this idea of standing by Iranian people and to what extent you're willing to commit to the complexity of it for me is key. But first, but another thing that is simple, yet requires a lot of commitment is to committing to echoing their voice, the voices are coming from inside and following their stories and humanizing their struggle. We have this moments of eruptions that get the attention of international media, a lot of international forces join on TikTok, on platforms and universities and then the next big news happens, the news cycle moves on, the struggle remains.  That is not just those epi-series of the person X is arrested, actually person X is now released from prison, but cannot get a job, because that's how various elements of repression work to contain dissent. Humanizing the struggle, humanizing the generations of struggle, people who are supporting the movement have been fighting for decades, like people who have joined this movement are the ones who are fighting for truth and justice for the victims of this execution, for the chain assassination of dissidents in late 90s. So people stay and keep coming back to it, if we can bring out these dimensions, I think it manifests the importance and the enormous nature of the struggle. And for interference, I have no doubt that political forces have their own agenda inside and outside the country, and many of the forces outside forces that have their agenda, their agenda is not necessarily to support peaceful transition to a free and secular country that can become a competitor in so many levels and a lot can get lost in every country and state and political group have their own agenda. And they do try to echo that in their messaging. But the core of the problems, the root causes, the reasons people are coming to the street is local, is their lived experience. It is, it is the real everyday reality of having to go out and deal with the morality to this. It's the reality of the economic situation deteriorating as it sanctions as a government policy are there both. The answer is both. It's not an either or government enacts policies in response to sanction that further enriches rights. The government has serious corruption and mismanagement issues. So what we're dealing with what the person who is sitting in Iran is receiving is the accumulative impact of these things, but the causes the issues that the problems with government on democratic governance in Iran are local and are real. So, until those are resolved, and the root causes remained and create opportunities for all sorts of actors to take advantage of them. And the question of sanctions, are they helping or harming I think is a very simple. I know we're interested in categorizing it's like this group or that group, but the reality is that the question is is complicated requires requires a closer look. And the debates that are reductionist in wanting to find, put the blame either on outside or inside overlooks that the accumulative nature of the problem that Iranians are dealing with. And what we can, what I can say from the research that I have done on access to medication as well as medical education is that in so many ways, and broad sectoral sanctions and have contributed to this for procurement of medicine, material for education, becoming much more restrictive and difficult and has created a more on transparent economy that is being even more abusive against people on so many ways. And the ability of Iranians in the society to organize and mobilize is also impacted by their economic struggle we saw a lot of calls for general strikes in the beginning of the protest no one answers the question was like how a labor union that is under crack down by the government can go on a strike if people cannot put bread on their and also there that the nature of restrictions on approaching the question of Iran, not having transparent financial channel really limits abilities for economic for for academic exchanges cultural interactions. It, and contributes to isolation of civil society and issue that I, I have raised earlier. And so, if I may instead of saying help or help or her it's, it definitely compounds the impact and the restrictions and I think been looking at the question as a matter of policy intervention, it is essential for state to look into this as an integral part of the assessment that they need to do. When rolling out this measures that have actually gone for decades at this point. Thank you so much for this extremely interesting seminar webinar, actually, and thanks for being so generous in, you know, sharing your wisdom and your insights into the current situation in Iran but, you know, also into into your own the research that you yourself have been, you know, have been carrying out. And so I'd like to, you know, give you an applause for what to share with us. And I think it's, I think we will come to to a close of to an end of our session, it's for PM, and thanks everyone for for being with us and for following us and until the next time. Thank you so much.