Fat burners. Fat burner. The best fat banners for men. They don't burn body fat.   It's the same thing. It's interesting they can even get away with naming it that, no? I know, thermogenic. Because they raise core temperature. Are you getting hot? That's what it's supposed to do. Yeah. What about the ones that have nothing to even do with that? Like, if it doesn't even have a stimulant in it, like, remember like lipotropic transport or pyruvage? Oh, my gosh, lipotropic. Yeah, you remember all those? I do, I do. So those weren't even thermogenic. Those weren't even anything that was speeding your metabolism up or didn't have caffeine, nothing in it.  Oh, yeah, that's how we were told to sell it. And the most effective best ones that were ever created like the hydroxy cuts and the xenodrens and all those like that were ephedra and caffeine based. And that was really the effectiveness of it. It wasn't that there was some magical thing inside this supplement that was burning fat. It was just like, have you ever taken six cups of coffee before and then act, see how you act? It's like literally it's like. Well, so they did another big analysis. By the way, there's a lot of these studies now in these quote unquote thermogenic fat burns, but they did another one and they found that they don't burn more body fat. They don't do anything with nutrient repartitioning. This is how they'll also sell it. They don't do anything, but what they can do in some people is suppress appetite for a short period of time. So people who say, but I use those and I did lose more weight. It's the appetite suppressing effects of the stimulants. Now there is another side to that, which is the appetite suppressing effects wore off very quickly.     It's far worse with these thermogenic fat burners that have other stimulants on top of caffeine. So waste the money. Unless you want to take it as a pre-workout, give you a little bit of hype or whatever, or you just like to feel overstimulated. I'll raise my hand, waste the money. Is it, what's the percentage that they usually allot for for the placebo effect? That's a good question. That's a very good question. I don't know. Yeah, because I know that they have to account for that. And it's, and obviously it like amounts to the person's actual belief, which does play into that on some level. But I mean, you could just have like a sugar pill. And we actually talked about this with some of that called in, that was like kind of taking a ritualistic kind of a thing that led to kind of better behaviors. But I mean, it's literally nothing of what they're actually promoting in the ads or the effect of it. That's probably one of the most, you know, it'd be interesting to see what the percentage to your point. But that's actually one of the things that used to tell clients that, hey, if you, one, if you have the disposable income, two, if you're like a sal, where you like experimenting and noticing how different things make you feel. Three, does it help you stay accountable to doing the other things, right? Like I do remember at a point in my life when, you know, 200 something bucks a month in supplements was a lot of money to me. Like it was a good percentage of what I made for the month. And so it was like, if I'm spending this money on these protein powders, these fat burners, these muscle billers, like I was also going to the gym, right? So there was that kind of like, oh, and there was this like, that was like the first step. We went back, back then it was max muscle, right? Oh, let's go down to the max muscle and find out the latest, you know. That's right. So by my overly kind of pro hormones stuff that we get, right? Pro, yeah. Pro hormones. Progressive packaging. No, no, they were hormones. Yeah. And then we get him and then like, again, then I would become consistent. And so that's kind of how I presented to clients is that, okay, one, it's not a big deal for you to throw away $2 or $300. Two, you enjoy feeling different from these things. And three, it's like, you recognize that it makes for, now, if you don't check those boxes, then it is an absolute waste. There's also something that you're not including there, which is what could you spend that money on? Sure. That would give you a greater return. Sure. You could name a lot of things that you could spend $200 on. That would give you a greater return. One of them being put in the stock market, you know, you don't have to do anything with that $200. That's related to fitness. That would, and it would still be a better return than what you're saying. In fact, I'm wondering, maybe Doug can look this up or Andrew, how much money do people spend on personal trainers every year? Versus how much money people spend on supplements every year? I wanna see what the difference is in those numbers. Yeah. I'd be very, I'm very interested to see if there's- It might be hard to find the individual. You can find what the markets are though. You could see what the supplement industry is worth and you can see what the personal training market is. Yeah, I mean, I guess that would be the closest, right? What do you guys think? Which one's valued more? Oh my God, it's not even, it won't even be close. Yeah, what do you see there, Doug? Well, it says 60% of the population spends more than $40 a month on supplements. 13% over $100 per month. I mean, you could just look at what the total industry is. Yeah, look at- So what is the value of the supplement? Like how much, how many billions of dollars do we do in supplements per year? And then how much do we do in personal training? Yeah, because- It's not even the same.  If you did one session a month with a personal trainer, you would get way more in return. Sure, yeah. With that money. Especially with a good goal. For fat loss, for muscle building, for performance enhancement. Your workouts would be more efficient. Your nutrition would be more dialed in. 35.6 billion in 2022. For supplements. Supplements. Let's look at the personal trainer. The other one's probably maybe in the hundreds of millions. Maybe. If that- Oh my God, that just goes to show you- It's not even the same universe. Yeah. Holy cow, if that's true, how powerful is marketing, right? Because mark the industry because it's funded by supplements, your, the view is so distorted on its effectiveness. So the average consumer spends more on supplements than they would on hiring a coach. Which is the opposite of what you should do. Absolute opposite. I'm interested to see that number. Yeah, it may be hard to find. Okay. Because I don't think there's any good stats. What are you, what are you searching for? Andrew, is this you pulling up? Yeah, I got something here. It's personal fitness trainer market size, growing strongly in recent years. Basically about 41 billion. Okay, so it's comparable. Comparable. But this is- That's for the personal trainer? I don't know if it's like, personal trainers getting paid or people spending on personal trainers. That's gotta be what they spent. Okay, so it's comparable. But a larger percentage of the population buys supplements than works with trainers. And remember, training is expensive and compared to supplements. Yeah, I'm so surprised by that. Nonetheless, I mean- I'm trying to run the numbers in my head real quick with 24 our fitness. Say you have 400 locations, the average location is at the high end doing a million a year. So that's 400 million from that location, and that's one of the largest chains. So 10X that maybe. Most all people who are buying personal trainer usually buying supplements. So there's like a crossover between the two. Yeah, that was always the struggle that I had- Regardless of get your point. Yeah, yeah, my point is this, that you're spending a lot, people are spending money on things that do nothing for them. Yeah, even- And if they took that money and put it towards a code. Well, I also think there's other things that like, this is, here's one. And this, here's an expensive one, something like the eight sleep, okay? It's not a cheap product. Sure. But what that has done just for my sleep or any of my clients that have purchased one of these, like either them or the other companies that exist out there. And what we know about sleep when it comes to recovery and building muscle and burning body fat and just overall like, and it's a one-time purchase. So you purchase that one time. And yeah, it's probably what a year's worth of supplement buying would be for you. But it's your, you now forever have it. And now it's impacting something that has far more return on whatever your fitness goals are. So to me, it's like, when I look at that, like the trainer comparison, like I get it at that point, but it's like, there's other things that you can invest in that I think give you a great- It's so huge. Oh, well, speaking to that, there was a study that was done. I talked about this already. This was the University of Chicago. This was a sleep research laboratory. So this was controlled. So people were in their lab sleeping for either five and a half hours or for a full night of sleep, which was eight hours. Okay, and this was over the course of two weeks, 14 days. You know what they found in 14 days? And they put them on calorie-restricted diet just 14 days. They lost the same amount of weight that the group that slept five and a half hours lost 50% more muscle and 50% less body fat. Perfect example. Just from sleep, same, everything else was controlled. The only factor. Everything else was controlled. Just sleep, they lost to spend money on improving your sleep. So figure that out. Okay, so just based off of that, if a product like that just improved your sleep by 10%. Yeah, do that over years or a year or whatever. Yeah, not only makes up for it.  No, no. So yeah, it's just an example though of great marketing. We've done such a good job in that space. Now, I wanna believe the reason why companies like AteSleep have do exist now and that there is a market for it is because the market is shifting. It's more people are becoming more educated. I mean, I remember when we first had Sean Stevenson on the show way back in the days after his first sleep book and everything like, he was like, I remember one of the things that he said when we had him on, this was like what, eight years ago? What a long time ago. Yeah, at least seven years ago. Yeah, seven, eight years ago. He, one of the reasons why he wrote that was because there was very few books written on sleep. But it just wasn't a popular conversation yet. He knew from experience and what he had done research-wise, like what a game changer that can be for people's results. And so I do think the conversation is changing and maybe more people are becoming privy to the value of putting energy and focus around getting better sleep than buying all these latest, greatest fat burners or muscle burners. Yeah, you're hitting the nerve of me with sleep because my sleep's been bad the past couple nights because of my one year old, you know, she pipes up at 2 a.m. and then again at 4 a.m. and it's hard to get back to sleep.  Well, I literally texted my wife. I said, I don't want to be a dad right now. I don't want to be a dad anymore. I think I'm done. I'm cool. I just want to go to bed. Oh my God, yeah, because I just, terrible, because she woke me up at 2 a.m. and then from there, has this ever happened to you where you wake up and then you end up waking up every two hours or so? Cause now I'm thinking about, why did she cry? Maybe- You're really anticipating it now. Yeah, dude. Oh, nice. Reacting. Oh, and I woke up and I was so exhausted that I come downstairs and my three year old is the most, he's like an alarm clock. He wakes up 6 a.m. no matter what. No matter what, he's up at 6 a.m.  As soon as I start drifting off, you know, he comes up next to me, pokes me in the leg. Ba-ba. Oh, come on, buddy. Today's giveaway maps split. If you want to enter to win, leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it. Subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications. If you win, we'll let you know in the comment section. Also, only two days left for this month's sale, Maps Anabolic and Maps Anabolic Advanced, both 50% off. You have 48 hours left for this sale. If you're interested, just click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, back to the show. I've been having a lot of the same issues and it's mainly cause we've been traveling a lot for the kids competitions and, you know, I've been in these hotel rooms that, you know, it's just like the difference of an environment and then also too, like my youngest is in science camp this week and like, I don't know what it is, but whenever there's like somebody in the family or the unit isn't, you know, the unit that night, I'm like, I just have this like anxiety that just happened. Restless. Yeah, I'm just restless. I just like wake up like, ah, and I'm like, why am I awake? I have no idea why I'm awake. Oh, it's the worst. And it just keeps happening. That's the worst, dude. Do you ever do Nyquil? You ever take Nyquil? It's such a bad thing to take. I did that last night, dude. That's such a bad thing to take. That's like the lights out reset, dude. When you take Nyquil, you wake up with a beer. Doesn't work like I want it to ever.  No, you don't get like deep sleep. You just get knocked out.  The worst. That's the first thing. I remember what I took. Oh, groggy. I remember when I was sick and I was in my 20s, I was like the magic right there. Oh, I'll take this and sleep all day. Oh my God. I don't know if I've ever taken Nyquil when I'm not sick. I think that's all I know. Wait, wait, wait. What? Yeah, I don't think, no, I'm saying when I'm not sick. You guys are saying just take it when you're not sick.  Oh, it's terrible. My son's sick right now. He just got, he puked all over me yesterday. Oh, on you? Yes. Just straight, we're in the bath together. And he's like playing. He's in the bath tub. Yeah, bro. He literally like, he's standing up in the bathtub and his thing is making, we poison, right? So I mix all the different shampoos and stuff and he's just, this is his thing he likes to do.  And he looks at it and then he looks at me and he kind of tilts his head and I can just say, what's wrong, buddy? Blah, just all over me, all in the water. Now at that point, you kind of like, Katrina. Oh, I don't even react. You're just chilling. I just get it out, man. Get it out. And I'm like, look, it's like floating in the water.  Get it all out. Get it all out. And I told you like, we've been so consistent with throwing up. So he doesn't like cry or nothing. He just standing there and you can talk to him. Well, cause you guys are chill about it. Yeah. So you can talk to him while he's in the middle of it. And you're like, do you have any more? Yeah, there's some more. Okay. Get it out. Get it out. Yeah. And so then I just, then I switched over to the shower and rest off and brought him in there. But yeah, he was up all night. What, what is it about kids having no warning before they throw up? Like as an adult, you know, for a little while, it's like, they always look so surprised. Yeah. Yeah. I would have a knot. What I should, Katrina and I are talking about this. Like he, he's so, um, his behavior is so consistent that we should know better. And we both had the same like realization afterwards. Like, you know what, we should have known he was off cause she picked him up from school yesterday. And it's so unlike him to be alone. So he was like sitting by a tree all by himself, which was not like him. Katrina said it was the saddest thing ever. She walked up and he looked up and maybe I kind of instantly started crying. And he, he loves school and he's always good at school. Like we didn't, and so he was crying because I guess at, uh, at the, the previous recess, he had, he's all into collecting rocks right now. So he takes all these rocks and he puts them in his pockets. And I guess they came back to the class and you know, they have schedule and it's like discovery time that they were doing and like my son's pulling all these rocks in class out of his, out of his, on the floor and all that. The kids start playing with them and so that. So it was distracting the whole class. So the teacher of course, like scooped him all up and said, no Max, you can't have these in the class. Like we're going to, I'm going to put him outside. And so he was like all upset about it. Then when he went outside, he couldn't find him. So he was all distraught, right? But that's still not like him to be that way where he cries by himself, but unless he's not feeling well, when he's not feeling well is when his behavior is off. And it didn't even register Katrina and I and that was like the first sign of it. He doesn't act sick. He just acts kind of like that.  You know, he'll want to be attached to Katrina or Ayala. And right in that day, so she picks over school, that was the first sign. Then she's trying to get her, we're both like, I'm washing, I'm washing one of the cars and I'm trying to work out in this and she's doing, and she's trying to work out too. And I see her like coming in the gym and she's like, ah, he won't let me go. He just wants to be by my side all the time. Again, still not registered. That's, that's, yeah. Still not. Like kids like that. Yeah, still not registering. Clean, clean. Yeah. Just needy, not like himself. And so it's still unregistered. We're in the bathtub. Him and I are playing like normal. I still think he's okay. And then of course just out of the blue like that. But there was those other signs that was like, oh, and he didn't need, he passed on eating dinner. Okay. So I should have known there too. Oh, all the check. Yeah. So we had like all the warning signs, but again, he seemed so normal outside of those behaviors that was like, maybe he's fine. No, he wasn't. Did I ever tell you guys when, when Jessica went, she was, she got into painting rocks, like smooth rocks and she'd paint like really nice. She's really good at doing it, but I remember she's, I, she did like six of them and I'm like, where are you getting these rocks from? She's like, oh, I'm just outside. I'm like, honey, you know those, like people buy rocks to put them in their front yard. She was like, what do you mean? It's just, just nature. I'm like, no, that's not nature. People put rocks. Are you going to people's houses and taking rocks from their yard? She's like, what? I'm like, yeah dude, I think you're stealing people's rocks. She had no idea. She thought I was like nature. I'm like, no. Well, you know, it's funny about that. It's in her defense. Like if you grew up in the country, it is like that. If you grew up in the city, it is like what you're saying. Like in the city, you don't have those things. These are like, like smooth decorative. I remember when we were kids, where we grew up. We grew rocks from Home Depot. For a portion of our life, we lived up near Lake Don Pedro up north a little bit or northeast a little bit.  And I never knew this until I got older. We had it all and we were, this is when we were poor, right?  And we had this property that had all this rock. And I remember later on in life, like finding out like, you'll be like thousands of dollars for these rocks that have all that limestone moss grown on it. Like I got them for free. Oh, they were, I mean, looking back now, I'm like, dude, I would have just stored a couple of truckloads of that. We would have had tens of thousands of dollars. Bro, when I was- Don't mind your back. My dad thinks it's the funniest thing. You're wearing a pair of jeans right now with holes in them. My dad thinks it's the funniest thing in the world. He goes, when I was a kid, we used to patch up the holes in our jeans. Now you guys get them on purpose and go spend money on them. That's what I can be said. I was doing the day in the life today.  I don't know, it's kind of his thing. Hey, when did you know, when did you figure out? Cause you say you grew up poor, right? Yeah.  Oh, like you mean there's like- Like I'll tell you one for us, right? At home, right? It's like, I tease my wife about this.  So we buy sliced bread. Okay. She doesn't eat the ends of the bread. Just throws the heels away. She throws the ends of the bread away. Oh yeah. I'm like, oh, whoa, we're so rich now. I just throw away the ends of the bread. I tease my wife, you know? You save those for the ducks. Yeah. Oh, that's the, that's what you do. You feed the ducks. I'm telling you. That's right. Yeah, take the kids down, the kids down in the pond and do that. That's a great idea. That's a great idea. Cause I don't like the heels either. You know what?  My mom would slice the heels up and add it into the tuna mix. So that would. She'd cut the tuna. So yes, she would cut the tuna. Like a drug dealer? So it would double the volume of the, yeah, that was like a, there's a poor hack for you. Right there. Yeah. She used to do an egg salad sandwiches. She used to do it in tunas. I mean, that's like bread crumbs, I guess, right? Yeah. So that's what you do. She'd slice them all up and thin. Well, the croutons is just old bread. That's yeah. You know, that's the thing in restaurants, right? Yeah. You just let the bread rolls get old. A lot of people know this. Restaurants, I don't think all restaurants do this, but a lot of restaurants do this. The bread that people don't eat at the table, they take it back. This is like a whole another world of what people don't want to know. Yeah, dude. Trust me, I've worked in the restaurant. It stresses me. I mean, they cook it. I guess it's okay, right? Like the reuse of food that you've seen. I saw that in another dish, and now this is in like a soup. I don't know. What's happening here? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what some of my bad habits like that have happened.  Like I don't like that. Like I don't, I get really irritated. There's two things that we do right now that really bothers me and I'm part of this, right? So it's not me ragging on my wife. Like we both do this.  Like the whole COVID thing made us so comfortable with that. I made the stock go up $10 myself. Yeah. And so it's just wasteful. And it's so easy in the moment to be like, oh, it's an extra $5 what cares? Yeah. But I mean, you multiply that multiple times a day throughout the months.  The other thing we do too is we keep, we still, even though I have a filter at my house or a Alhambra bottle thing or whatever you call it, we still, when that runs out, if one of us didn't go run to go fill all the five gallon jugs up, then we order plastic water bottles. And I don't wanna be drinking out of plastic water bottles. And it's so wasteful. And so we do that. And it's just like... So we order, I have it delivered to my door and they're big, the big five gallon glass. I saw the glass. I've seen them. Their glass, I got glass on purpose when I read that. Remember we talked about the show a while ago where they found so many... With microplastics. Oh, millions of bits of nanoparticles of plastic. It's alarming. Water that comes in plastic bottles. Just from the process. So they make the new ones. So I have a BP-free one now that's... It's still the bits of plastic. And it's just from the processing. If you think of the factory that puts the water and puts the cap on, it's like dust. And it ends up in the water. I mean, again, that's an area where we could be better. Like I'm terrible about doing that. So it's wasteful, you know what I'm saying? So when we have things like that that are like super wasteful. And you know, you get to a point like you're saying, like, oh, what are we so rich now? We don't worry about five bucks a year, 10 bucks a year. Yeah, we bought like three waffle makers. Because the other ones got dirty and you couldn't clean it good enough. So just bought a new one. It's like, it's only 20 but something bucks. Like babe. But then again, hold on, I gotta add to it.  See, I appreciate Mark. I love it. Yeah, dude, someone will show up on my door and be like, I'm here to buy the coffee table thing for 12 bucks. See, I love that your guys' wives do that because I wish Katrina would do that more.  And I know this is part of why she doesn't is because we've had two cars stolen from our house. And both times was after we did like of having people come. Wait a minute, I thought when you guys were together? Yeah. I don't know that happened when you guys were together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she's been 13 years with me together. So yeah, I've had two cars stolen and it was right after we had like a garage sale where we had people coming to our house. How do they steal a car? I gotta understand, hot wire it? Is that a thing still? I mean, it's not that hard, the vehicle. One was an Integra, the other one was the Chevy truck and I remember when the cop told me how easy the Chevy trucks are, they just pop the door handle. They go right in and then yeah. Yeah, but how do they turn it on and get through? I think you could like stick a screwdriver.  So I... It's been a while. Exactly. Watch a YouTube video now. I guarantee there's a YouTube video. I've never seen a car. Yes! Remember when I told you guys that about my safe? I'll never forget that. That was like, that was the funniest thing that had ever happened to me I think when it comes to like security and safety and all this other stuff.  Money and all the stuff that in there you obviously don't want to get, right? And it was one of those digital code ones and the battery died on it. And I didn't have the backup key and I couldn't find it.  You're so screwed. So, and for days I was like, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? Am I gonna rip this thing off the wall? Like what's gonna happen?  I wonder if someone's ever had this problem. Let me YouTube it. And I YouTube it. Motherfucker showed out a break into that thing with a paper clip in less than three minutes. And I watched the tutorial with a paper clip dog. And I did it. And it was like, it took me literally like two tries. Dude, that's so alarming. And I know it. I'm like, what's the point of this safe? If you could YouTube like, oh yeah, I do. I literally looked at the brand, you know, locked myself out of this safe or like that. And a guy had it. That's all how you have to title it is like helping you get back into your own safe. Yes. But like, you know, now I know how to break it. Everybody's safe. Car won't start. Chevy 2024 won't start. Won't start. How do I get this thing? I lost my keys. What do I do? I lost my keys. I'm free. Wow. Yes, bro. So there's like all that stuff. I'll never forget that. Oh, that's hilarious. That's hilarious. What's the point of this? I gotta bring up an article that backs up the theory that I have that they quote unquote, and I hate that when I say that, Adam, that they want us to be unhealthy. Have you guys seen this new article that's going around talking about how I gotta pull up here, talking about how I gotta read the title because that's the best part. Here it is, ready? It's in the Daily Mail based off of a study. Okay. Sunbathing for just one day. This is the title. Increases your risk of heart disease and stops the body fighting infections. What? Study finds. Yeah. So maybe you could pull this article up, Doug, but I'll tell you, I read it. I read the study. So first off, it's the most misleading. Who put this out? Daily Mail. It's the most misleading title of all time. Here's what they found. When people were out in the sun all day, certain inflammatory markers were elevated by 10%. Okay. By the way. That's what happened when you work out. Do you know, yes. Okay. One of the reasons why your body tans when you're out in the sun. It adapts the stress. It's adapting to the stress and the stress process is inflammation. You do get a rise in inflammatory. Just like working out. If you were to take somebody through an appropriate workout, a proper workout, test their blood before and after, you would see elevated inflammatory markers, elevated markers of stress. And then what you could say is, oh my God, this actually is gonna make people sick because these markers are also connected to things like cancer, heart disease, and so on. Terrible, right? So now how many people actually understand that? Nobody.  Another example though of like, why? Like, why are we, why is someone putting together that or why would you present that information? Oh, to your point. This is your theory. This is my theory. Your theory is, I think so. It's getting them sick. I think so, dude. I think that there's this strange, there's only thing that makes sense. That's why I think so. Cause I don't know anything about what's happening, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that they've identified that all these controlling powers have identified that when people are less empowered, obese, when they're not exercising, when they're more sick, they're more valuable to all these markets and they're easier to control and to manipulate. And when people feel healthy, fit, empowered, are not on lots of medications, whatever, then they're just not as valuable. The purchasing habits are different and they're harder to manipulate. So that's only thing that makes sense to me because when I read these articles, I'm like, what are you guys saying? This is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Terrible advice. I don't see you gonna get us to adopt the social credit score. Oh man. Gotta start there. Yeah, dude. That man up in China, I didn't know this, that their cameras don't just identify your face, they also identify your gait and movement.  Yeah, they still can figure it out. They can still figure it out. And did you know that, I didn't know this, that your bank account will get, there's no court, right? So if it catches the cameras catch you, it's automated, little money taken from your account and your social credit score goes down. You gotta learn that dune walk. To the shuffle. Just figure it out. I mean, this is what scares me the most about cryptocurrency and stuff like that, that everybody's so pro about is that what happens when we have this digital coin that it's so easy for the government to grab and move and so with that. And so it's presented like, this is like the safer place.  Well, that bill are just freezing your accounts all. Well, they've already shown they've done that. You know, in Canada and like all these other places, like they can do that. They can, that bill for TikTok is basically a bill that will allow the executive branch, the power out of discretion, essentially, to censor, control, or shut down social media sites. But of course they're using TikTok as the, you know, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, the scapegoat or whatever, right? And I'm not a big TikTok fan, except in fact, I think, yeah, I think that there's a problem there, but I think it should be specific to TikTok and not like these broad sweeping powers. Do you know where that, where is that at?  Like, is it, how long does it take before they pass? Oh, you don't know how long it takes to do that. No, no, no. I haven't seen too many people that have been pointing it out either, which is a little, it makes me nervous. You know, I see more people hating on TikTok, which I think we all are all in agreeance on that, but the answer is not to go through the ban that they're trying to do. It's interesting because you could be specific and say TikTok, this is the one we have a problem with, but instead what the legislation does is it gives broad powers. So, and this is not the first time, by the way, this is what they did. I mean, they do this after every emergency, September 11th they did this, right? Where they were like, oh, we gotta stop terrorists. But then what they do is they give broad discretionary powers without judge, trial or jury to, you know, elements of the government under the guise of protecting us against terrorists, but it has been used against citizens. Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of language in there that, because you kind of saw the reaction of the government on some level of like they lost control of Twitter. And so now it's like, you know, how can we reconfigure this in a way that benefits us so we can kind of backdoor it again? And it's, I don't know, I just, that's where I'm always thinking, because it's already been shown that that was proven to be the case. Did you see Ron Paul's interview with, what's his name on X? I can't believe I forgot his name. He used to be on Fox. Tucker Carlson. Thank you. Did you see he interviewed Ron Paul? And he asked Ron Paul, when did this all go south? Like when did we lose all this? And he says, this assassination of JFK. He said, at that moment, that's when everything went. In broad daylight. You still haven't watched Octopus Murders, have you? No. Oh yeah. It goes into that too, huh? That's where we finally got Adam on board. Yeah. Come on, guy. I brought my tinfoil hat. Well, okay, I'll add one more before this conversation ends. So did you hear about Mark Wahlberg? I guess he had an opportunity to do a film with Tom Hanks and refused. And then said that he'll be praying for him. That's what he said? No, he didn't like that. Just like that? I mean, Tom Hanks was on the list. I know he is. He was on the Epstein list.  He's tied to the Pizza Gate thing.  Oh, that breaks my heart too. I was a big fan of his. I know, and they kind of tried to soften it by saying he didn't agree with his woke politics or whatever, which we all kind of know why. We know why he didn't want to do something. Interesting. I thought that was a bold move, you know? Yeah, Wahlberg is one of the few that are like taking a hard stance. It seems to be very principled. Yeah, there's only, there's a handful. The other one is too, what's the guy who did the Sound of Freedom? Jim Caviesal? Yes. Jim Caviesal. And then Mel Gibson and... Who's that comedian that Justin always says if he wishes would play him? That one actor. Oh, yeah. Justin's always like, I would like to play me in a movie. This is the guy I wanted to be. Me. Come on, Gordy's in the galaxy. Oh, Chris Pratt. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chris Pratt like that too. He could totally pull it off. Yeah, he could say, dude. He wants to do it. He was great in the Lego movie. Wait, what famous actor would do everybody? Okay, you're, that's, Chris Pratt is you. That's, I think that's a really good one for you. Who does, who does Sal? Oh. Who does Sal? Sal is. Antonio Banderas. It's a blood, it's a blood, bro. But who does Sal? He's a handsome guy. He's not the right... He's not the right ethnicity, but he's... Look at Robert De Niro. Who does he... We're about the same age. Yeah, yeah. Who does, who does, who does Sal? Oh man. Who does Doug? Jason Statham. Sylvester Stallone for Sal. Oh, Stallone. Oh yeah, Stallone. That would be, that would be full circle right there. Yeah, that would be nice to know. You're, you're, you're Rizal Ramon. Who plays that guy, that's how it is. He's not even an actor, that's not fair.  You know what I'm saying, who does me? Give me like a real actor. Justin gets like a good actor. I know, I know. So far I'm waiting. He was Stallone's pretty good, you know what I'm saying? He is, bro. I can't do it. I can't figure it out. Rizal Ramon? I don't know why I thought of him. With the toothache, you know? Yeah. I don't know. Hey, speaking of woke, did you hear about the study they did on Woke people? They did a study on woke people? Yes, they did, bro. Study fine. Like a willing study. Yeah, listen, you guys are gonna be, I don't know if you'll be shocked, but by the way, woke, I'll define what that is. Okay, thank you, please. But at the title of the article said study finds that woke people are more likely to be unhappy, anxious, and depressed. So here are some of the questions that they identified these people as well. So here's one of them. If white people have an average of a higher level of income than black people, it is because of racism or university reading lists should include fewer white or European authors. Microaggressions should be challenged often and actively trans women who compete with women in sports are not helping women's rights. That's a reverse score. So if you say, you disagree with that, then you're woke. We don't need to talk more about the color of people's skin, another reverse score, and so on. So they basically tested, you had to answer this. Yes. Oh, okay. That's kind of interesting. Then they figure out, okay. Okay, you're more on that. And they also found that these people were more, they just suffered from anxiety, depression, and what else have we ever seen as an example of like, so there was a time when woke was a positive thing. Yeah. That was used. It got marketed, right? It got adopted and marketed and turned into a bad thing. Yeah. It wasn't a bad thing before. I mean, woke was enlightened initially, right? That's like, I'm awake. Wow, they had 67% higher rates of anxiety, 32% higher rate of depression, and wow, those are big, those are big numbers. Well, to me, it makes sense because if you're like, if you're anxious and depressed, you're looking at the world through that lens. That's right. Blaming everything else. Blaming everything. Yeah, versus accountability. Yeah. And you're thinking about all that stuff. Or you're also, I don't know, it's interesting. It's interesting that they found that. That is interesting. I know. You know, I think here's a change of subject a little bit interesting, I think is. So the audience, I don't know how much we've shared. Obviously, they've definitely heard us talk about how anti-app, I know that I've been for a very long time because of Justin and I's sour taste in our mouth for our experience in the app world. One of the times, another time, I appreciate Adam's business acumen, saved us. You've been complimenting a lot lately. I like this. I like this. Are you guys clipping these out, Andrew? It's deserved. Could you clip these out so we could put like a little. I'll say it when it's real. No, and this was not me searching for a compliment in this, more so just like, it's just incredible. Like, the app space is very saturated and really tough to be super successful, make a lot of money. So we stayed away from it for a long time, yet we've talked to a lot of friends of ours that have built some really incredible apps and we've had multiple conversations about potentially partnering with them or working some sort of a deal out there. That way they can host our programs and we can help promote them. And we've been really close to inking a few deals. In fact, there was two that we were really close and these are apps, I mean, essentially for trainers and coaches. Yes.  And I know there's a ton of people that are listening right now that are like, oh, I wish you guys had your programs in an app, a different app. And I get it, you know what I'm saying? But understand there's a lot more to this, right? It's not easy and it's competitive and it's expensive to do a really good one. So anyways, here we are really close to like partnering up with somebody to potentially do that and outcomes in ASM one. And this is exactly the experience. I don't know how you compete with them. You just can't. And that's what makes it so difficult in the app world is even if you have a brilliant idea and it's so good, all it takes is a big company that's worth a lot of money like in ASM that has a lot of power that can go reverse engineer the best app out there and bolster it even more and put money behind it, advertising behind it and add to it. Add their current existing business on top of that. So it's like, you already have all your CEUs, you have all of these courses and things integrated into it. It's crazy. Decades of education. So what they did, which, you know, I feel bad for people in this space because they're dead, there's no way they can compete because all those apps that we talked about are like 100, 150 bucks a month or more if you're a trainer or a coach and you're building a business. And ASM wants 35 bucks and it's not just an app.  Also 50% off of all their certifications.  Then you have unlimited like over 300 different CEUs which basically enough CEUs to keep your certifications current for the rest of your life. Long time. Are you in their network too? Like can you search any of some trainers in there? That's a good question. I didn't know that. Steve Doug, you can find that up or Andrew you can find that up. That'd be interesting if you can do that. But man, unlimited support from NASM experts. So ask questions directly to the fitness industry's leading authorities. I mean, they're the leaders in the, in the, they have been forever. Four free specializations, CPR, business basics, virtual coaching, social media influencer, home gym design, CPR, AD certification. Those are free. That's included. That's the one I always forget about as a CPR. Like that always comes up and you're like, aww man. It's just what, so, I mean, this is part, I don't know if like in NASM, they thought this way when they did it or not. Like, I mean, this was, this in itself is amazing, right? What they're doing. But the app game is crazy. Like, and I didn't know that until we got into it. And I didn't know like when there's like, there's like a handful of like in the app world, games are the most profitable first of all. 80% of the most profitable apps are games, not tools. And you have companies that have, that are own most of them.   And they just reskin it. Yes. They let it, they let it get some, they let it get some traction. And then they have two options.  And then, you know, the entrepreneur that works so hard to build is like, no, this is going to be worth so much more. It's going to be a billion dollars. This is going to be huge. I'm going to build it myself. No. Okay. So there's nothing that protects you from somebody reverse engineering it. That it's not, you can't patent that technology. You can't say it's yours. And it's simple as changing, you said reskinning a couple of things, adding a couple of features, color it a little bit different. You can't even rip the code. Yeah. That's what I mean. You can reverse engineer it. But the thing with an ESM is this is just, and I like this because what they've done with this is besides educating, I mean, they've been the leaders in the industry with national certs since we were trainers and before they, what they've done is they've gone from like really educating trainers to now providing them with the tools that you need to run online coaching business or personal training business. And then they brought the price down so low it's not even, there's no competition. It doesn't make any sense why you would work with any other company. Which like I said, thanks Adam for not letting this work. I would have saw this and like, oh no. Oh yeah. Just imagine how frustrating that was. We felt the pain a long time ago, thanks. I mean, I felt bad for our friends. We have a lot of friends that went this direction anyways because the app idea, I get it. We were drawn to it and it sounds sexy and sounds cool. And everybody makes you think that it's something you have to do in business. And it's like, man, it's a risky game to play. Totally. And they did an incredible job. Speaking to trainers and coaches, so we did a three day course for trainers that we did this, when did we do this? How long ago was this? In January. In January. And in those three days, and it was literally a training. I got up there, Adam and I got up there and we taught trainers getting leads, how to close deals, how to package programs. Business plan. How to business plan. You want to make this much money. Well, then how many people do you need to talk to versus how many people need to show up versus how you end up closing those deals. How to sell big packages. We did a three day course and it was so popular when we did it. It was so popular that what we decided is, let's get this and put it together and then give it to everybody for free. So you can go now and what's the link for it? Mind Pump Trainer Course. Okay. Mind Pump Trainer Course.com. It's a free training by us for trainers and coaches. 100% free. So if you missed it, make sure you guys get on it for sure. Get on there and learn how to build your business. And we have a lot of messages from people that attended the first one who said that their closing percentage went up 20% or that their average per unit sale went up X amount of dollars. So good stuff. Anyway, did you guys hear about the kid? I forgot what high school it was. I'm gonna pull it up. Who got in trouble with the school because he drove his truck to school. He had an American flag flying from the back and the school said, you can't do that. Take that flag down. Right? Yeah, I know. So Indiana High School, okay. They told, the school told him to take his- This is Indiana? Yeah, I know. The Indiana High School told this senior, his name is Cameron Blasek, take the US flag off your truck because it's offensive, quote unquote. Okay. So he said, no, I'm not gonna do that. And the school protested. The students protested.  The school's back down. We'll check this out. I don't know who gave, who did this, but oh, CGI digital imaging in Cincinnati. Heard about this, took his truck and they wrapped his truck. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically a big- No, they didn't. American flag truck. Oh, it's so hard to do. And they hooked him up for free. That's so awesome. Good for you, dude. How weird is that? Offensive. What? How? How is that offensive? I know, it's crazy it's in here, isn't it? See, this is where I- I don't understand. I feel like it's a troll. I feel like this is all coming from outside influence and then an email or something else and then there's pressure to some of the administration because it just doesn't feel like that sentiment is very visible anywhere. I mean, obviously California is a different story. The only way that makes sense to me that that would happen, especially in Indiana, Yeah, it just doesn't make any sense. is if he did it on a day when they were making it different, like flying another flag for pride or for something else. Like single to my own, he flies a flag. Exactly. That's the only thing that makes sense to me is if he- Maybe we could find out. Yeah, that would be a little different. And not that it still shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter. Yeah, okay. Yeah.  That's the only thing that makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense because I thought all schools have an American flag on it. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty standard. Maybe Andrew could do some digging on the story because I feel like I bet it was on a day that they were probably highlighting another group and it was like- And he's like just trying to be like- And they were probably flying those flags that day. You know what? I bet you're right because otherwise that makes no sense. It makes no sense. If a kid just showed up with a school and put the American flag on his car or in his truck, there's no way that they would- Yeah, are you guys getting any information? Says it's a violation of school rules, but I need to dig in a bit more. Oh, see, maybe it wasn't. From what I could tell, basically the administration, the same day they had seen it, asked him to remove the American flag from his truck.   That's it. Man. Real quick, you don't say it's the text of all of my friends. It's a Marxist teacher. Well, if that, see, that's insane. That is weird. So they reversed their decision in one day and then that same day that kid showed him the rules of the school and said there's nowhere here saying that I can't do this.  That is a weird rule. Yeah, we live here. I thought for sure that- That doesn't mean you- Oh, dare you be proud of where you're from. Yeah. Or not even proud of this. Even, yeah, it's just- It's the country. Oh, hey, I live here. I have a flag of where I live. Yeah, I know. That's strange. Why is that offensive? What do you got, Doug? This is the school's, like, public message. After careful consideration, yeah, because you guys, they went national. You looked really bad, that's why.  That's kind of the response. I know. I know. Anyway, weird. Yeah, that is weird. Weird times. That is so weird. Yeah, that would have never imagined something like that. You know what else is weird? What? How this trezeppatite is playing out. Oh, so, okay, hold on a second. Yeah, it's still early. Okay, so you've had- Yeah, but now this is the second- Two days. Okay, and you're noticing the same thing. So what happened last night? I was trying to explain this to Trudy because she's, like, so fascinated in, like, I need to explain everything, right? I don't understand. Explain why you feel like I don't know yet. I said it's so early, right? So how much of this is in my head? I think this, which- But here's the thing.  And I always lean towards, oh, it's coincidence or something else before I think, like, something is doing it. But there are some things that have been- I told you guys the other day about the way- The craving and stuff like that. What was really trippy was last night. So I've, since I've started, I've also been eating really clean. And one of the things when I transitioned from allowing myself to have sweets and ice cream, and we just got trapped, just traveled and doing room service and eating whatever I want. You know, that initial, you guys know, when you're transitioning from allowing stuff like that in the diet to not, like the cravings are, that's when it's the hardest, the beginning, and then over time. So I always anticipate that to be challenged. Then you add in the fact that I'm training, we're walking, we're moving more, we're doing all these things, and I should be wanting a lot more calories than- It's not your first time doing this. You know what to expect. Right. Last night, chicken and rice, and again, another lean day, low calorie. I washed the car, which took me like an hour, an hour and a half to do that. Plus I worked out. Plus I barbecued outside. Plus I walked with you guys yesterday and I ate low calorie. Then at dinner, chicken and rice. I've trained myself. This was the part I was telling Katrina that's kind of interesting what I noticed last night. It's like, I have these behaviors. I've talked about this once before on the show that I still have to reverse out because of my insecurities of being a skinny kid and training myself to eat big all the time. To keep all this muscle. Force feeding yourself is natural. Like for example, if I were to order a five guys meal, I ordered two double burgers, but I couldn't do that when I was 20. I had to train myself to be able to eat that. Where now, and I'm not even training that hard, I still have the habit of doing that. And then I'll even catch myself stuffing myself when I don't need it or want it. So keep that in mind, right? So I do this with portion sizes.  I eat double her portion sizes normally. So I'm sitting down and we're eating dinner last night and I'm like, I'm full. And I'm like halfway through my plate. And I look at her and I'm just like, yeah, I don't have a desire to even eat anymore. And I'm like, I'm gonna go put it in the microwave and leave it there and see after I shower and a couple hours go by, if I get really hungry and maybe I'm just not hungry right now. But I should be. I'm like, I'm low calorie. I train, I burned all this much. I was low calorie yesterday. I trained, did all those things. Still haven't had a lot. And then thought I would. I ended up finishing the chicken later on that night, like at eight o'clock at night, I finished the other half of the serving. Was it, did you have to make yourself? Yeah. So the hurry. And I did it because I knew I was low in protein. That's what I'm gonna say. I wonder if that's gonna be the challenge. It is gonna be the challenge. But what I also told her that I'm trying to do right now is I'm also trying not to do that too much if that makes sense. Like I don't want to like, I know I had the discipline that even if I feel like I shouldn't eat, force myself to eat more protein, I want to just try and like really feel how I feel. And if I'm hungry, just discipline myself to make the good choices. But so far, it hasn't been hard to make the good choices. I haven't had a craving for some high calorie foods. Weird. And it's a trip because I mean like, I'm like, I know I have it in there. And I'm like, oh, it doesn't even sound that good. I don't really want it. I haven't wanted it yet. So again, so early. Someone close to me who's on the not to his appetite, but some of the glue tide, which is a similar peptide. It said the exact same thing. She said, I know it tastes good. I just don't want it. In fact, she said, I'll have a dessert and I'll have a, I'll just taste it. Which she's like, I could never do that before. This was a big problem for her where she couldn't just have a bite of something. It was either none or all. If she had a bite, then it was just over, it would overcome her. And she's like, I'll have a bite of my husband's dessert. And then I'm like totally content. She's like, that is not. So that's what I'm waiting for funny. Cause I mean, that's kind of what happened to me just cause of the pain that ensues later for me. Oh, with your gun. Yeah, like I've just been conditioned to like, it's all take a bite and then be like, any more than that, I'm done. You know, like, but that's why I would wonder. I'm like, I don't. That's another weight loss method has just developed. She's had problems. So I'm actually looking forward to that because I'm just like what you're describing. I'm all or nothing when it comes to sweets and things like that. And so I'm, but as of right now, I haven't even wanted it. And if I have at all an appetite, the way I'm thinking is like, oh, I've only had so many servings of protein. I need to get another, another protein meal in. So, I wonder how many, this has got to be extremely popular with pre-contest bodybuilders. It has to be. Well, we'll see, because again, we're early in this. Let's see how challenging it is for me to hit protein consistency. Yeah, but you know how some of these bodybuilders and physique competitors get down so low. I know, but they still eat a lot of protein. Five weeks before. They still eat a lot of protein though. I mean, they're not missing their protein. They're still eating. I mean, bodybuilding. So you think it might be so strong. Yeah. Oh, I'm, so like, I'm not like. How many grams are you hitting? Yeah, so I'm not tracking it out, but I'm only getting like 150 to 170. Oh, that's it? Yeah, yeah. Oh, so you're under. And I'm letting myself, because I want to see like what I don't, the idea for me for this, so the audience can hear me go through this process. I obviously know I have crazy discipline when it comes to training and diets with that. I don't want to prove that I can go hit, you know, like I can force myself to go hit these numbers. I want to go after I feel because what I, what I think or what I'm trying to communicate, hopefully is that how hard this could be for somebody when it comes to keeping muscle. Well, here's the thing.  You know, same thing, skinny kid.  It's not a problem. For the average person, if it's that strong, it's already hard enough to hit protein targets. Yes. And if they didn't, if they don't have the insecurities that I have, you know, like you might end up eating 60 grams of protein in the day. Yes. Is that okay? So, and that is what I'm trying to do is I'm, and that's, I was trying to explain to Katrina because she was like, well, aren't you, where are you going to lose all this muscle? I'm like, I'm not worried about anything because I can get everything back if I want to. I'm like, I really want to, I said, I'm trying to go through this experiment. Is she worried? She would all, that's, I tell you what, that's half of my issues too is that my wife would prefer me overly thick.  Oh yeah. Anytime I'm like, I'm soft right now and big. I'm 231, right? So I started this at 231, which is, that's a heavy weight for me. But she'd prefer me there than me at like 190 and like shredded, you know what I'm saying? Like she likes the thick. So that doesn't help. Yeah. What about, so obviously you don't have a lot of other like sort of impulse addictions or anything. I do, I do. Okay. Like what else? Well, so I'm not, I'm going to, He hasn't rubbed our ears in a couple of years. Well, yeah. Isn't it that? So I'm going to hold back on sharing those yet. Tell me all fair. I can't wait to hear all fair. Yeah. All fair, I'll share with you guys. Cause that's where I'm actually more curious. I'll share with the audience too. I will eventually, but it's too early to be like speculating. It has to be either gambling or... Stop, stop, stop. It's got to be something like that, right? I'll tell you, I'll tell you all of them. I have plenty of things that, I mean every, that I do that are not good habits, you know what I'm saying? So I am interested to see, and it tends, it's two days in. So it's so early to be speculating on all this, but so far, so good and interesting, very interesting that there are already things that I'm, I'm very confident that I would have a pool towards that I have it. So I am just to know. And again, this is through our partners at nphormones.com. And I want to say that because I don't want people going online and buying these peptides from research chemical labs. Not a good idea. No shady judges. What's a trip to is that, I didn't know one, I didn't know it was like only once a week shot, which is great. That's it.  You're on, by the way, you're on one, I think you start at one fourth or one 10th. I don't know, it's a... Oh, it goes up? You're on one fourth. If I'm correct, you start at one fourth of dose. You are not at full dose. It takes four weeks to get up to the full dose. Wow. So this will be interesting. I'm super interested. You know, I tend to have motivation too to get things done. I find myself... Oh, so that was the message I got. Someone said they procrastinate. Yeah, no, I'm very like, coming off a vacation and not eating well, the travel, all that stuff like that. And then for me to not miss a workout, be washing my car, full days at work, barbecue and outside. Not procrastinating. Yeah, helping clean around the house. I'm doing a lot of that stuff too. So it's like, let's see if this kind of maintains while I'm also simultaneously noticing that there's some behaviors and things that are not ideal and healthy for myself that I'm like, I don't have a pool to them right now. So I don't know. Oh my God. Yeah, check back with me. Yeah, yeah, check back in a week or two. I'll be honest about what I'm noticing, but interesting already. I'm very fascinated with what I'm noticing. I got the shout out I have. I don't know what the guy's name is. Did you find him, Doug? It was an 89 year old bodybuilder. So... Jim Arrington. Yeah, so I saw a clip. Maybe you could pull up his YouTube or a clip of this guy working out. And you know what's interesting about this? So he's 89, okay? So, and he's working out in a tank top in this one video I saw.  This guy's 89. He looks like a fit like 68 year old or something like that. It's like, look at that guy. Wow. That's 89. He's 89. 89. That's so sick. Obviously he's an advanced age. You could tell by his face, his hair, a whole deal. But I know, I've trained people in their 80s. I know people in their 80s, what they look like and how they move. That's crazy. That's so crazy, dude. That's so sick. Yes, isn't that great? Yeah. Goals. Really inspiring. That is awesome. Where's he at? Where's he based out of? California. California. Did you shout his full name out? Did you give him love? Yeah, Jim Arrington. He doesn't seem to have social. Oh, really? Yeah. I couldn't find anything. Doesn't need it. No, good stuff. There's a company called Ned that makes full spectrum hemp oil extract products high in CBD and other cannabinoids that can help you with things like mental performance, relaxation or produce feelings of euphoria. They have a new product called the Brain Blend. This has cannabinoids known to improve cognitive function to make you feel more uplifted and motivated. By the way, you feel this. If you take it, you know you took something. Go check it out. Yeah, by the way, it's also legal in all 50 states.  All right, back to the show. Our first caller is Ray from Texas. Ray, what's happening? How can we help you? Hi, man. How you guys doing? Good, what's going on? Well, I guess I'll get to it. My question is, do fat burners affect your muscle building potential? So a little bit of background. I've been, I'm 39. I've been lifting since I was about 17. Before that, I was always kind of like chubby kid. So it was always in the back of my mind. And then at around like 18, I started taking fat burners. And I've kind of been on them since then. It's just a, for me, it's always wanting to be lean. And I think that's been my biggest problem. And I'm just, I just wanted to hear your guys opinion. I've heard you guys say a lot of insightful things. And I just was curious as what your thoughts were. So fat burners typically will fall into like two categories. That'll be a category of fat burners that you could loosely classify as supplements that contain ingredients. Well, that's the other one, right? The first one I was going to go is, you know, ingredients that help, let's say the liver or the body mobilize fat or process fat.  Now, the way that they, and they're largely a waste of time and money. Now, the reason why people like them typically is the stimulant-based ones give you energy, you know? Back in the day, you mentioned hydroxy cut.  And they definitely affect the sympathetic nervous system. They will get you amped up. They will give you energy until your body adapts and your body does adapt. And they do have an appetite-suppressing effect. And most or many stimulants do this. Caffeine, to some extent, will suppress appetite. Ephedra, Cinephrine will do this. Yo-himby, to some extent, will do this.  And so, they tend to suppress appetite. And so, some people see that effect and say, oh, this helps me with weight loss. But what happens is your body adapts. It down-regulates receptors, reduces its production of catecholamines like epinephrine and norepinephrine. And so, you find that after that initial, you know, four or five-week period, the same dose doesn't do the same thing and you need more to produce a larger, or to start to recreate that effect. But then along with a larger dose comes more side effects, heart palpitations, anxiety, sleep issues, and stuff like that.  And so, your receptors have to up-regulate again. Your body has to start producing catecholamines means more again.  Now, as far as muscle building is concerned, because of the rise in cortisol and stress on the body, fat burners generally, and I don't, this is not like a huge impact, depends on the individual, but generally speaking, because they add stress to the body and they don't have necessarily a favorable impact on hormones, probably not great for muscle building. I think some stimulants pre-workout used appropriately can drive more productive workouts. So pre-workout supplements are a category of this. But other than that, it's not really, I think people should look at fat burners the same way they look at pre-workouts and say, do I want this little energy boost and how do I manage this so that it's appropriate? And how do I cycle off and on and manage my dose so that it doesn't become mostly negative side effects? Ray, what are your primary goals right now? I know you kind of mentioned what you were coming from, body dysmorphia-wise, and not wanting to be the fat guy, and that's in your head and some of that, but what are your, are you trying to build muscle? Are you trying to lose body fat? Are you happy where you're currently at? What are you trying to do? So I do want to build muscle, and I've, like I said, I've been lifting now for a long time. I've never really been able to get past like a 165. My weight fluctuates between 155 and 165. I'm a pretty small guy, I'm five, six. And right now, since listening to you guys, I've actually kind of like cut the fat burning taking that I'm doing, I cut the dose in half. Cause again, like with the body dysmorphia, I'm kind of, I'm scared to get back to that, you know, to that big guy that I used to be. So, but my goal overall is to build muscle. This is what I like to do for you. Are you following any of our math programs yet? Currently I've been running the 40 plus. Oh, good. Oh, great, great program. Okay, cool. Yeah, stick with that. You're not in the forum, are you? I don't believe so, no. Okay, so I'm gonna have Doug put you in our private forum, and what we need to do right now is just focus on building muscle.  I mean, it's not. Why do you like them? Is it because of the energy? It sounds like you've just conditioned yourself to take it since you were 20 years old. It's a ritual this way. What is it about them that you like? Is it the energy that you get from them, the stimulant effects? Probably the stimulant effect. The fact that it makes me feel leaner than I would without them. Cause when I cut the dose in half, like I could, you know, I guess I could feel a little bit more around the mid-section, around the chest, where it was more of a leaner look.  He's on a stimulant free.  He's on a stimulant free. It's evolution nutrition. It's one of the, it's like, I forget the name of it. Yeah, waste of money. Yeah. No, it's not doing anything for you. Yeah, that's my... No, it's, listen, listen, Ray, 100% 100% the data on these are clear. It's doing nothing for you.  You have a psychological attachment to this pill. In fact, I could switch out your pills with vitamin C. You wouldn't know the difference. So that was, my point of putting you in the form is that, right? So you're already following a great program. I just wanted to put you in the community where you have access to us.  And then as you go through the process, check in with us, let us know how things are going. I saw you're here too, you're tracking protein, right? So you're hitting your protein targets.  And anytime that you have, you're frustrated because you feel like you see something, like post about it, post about it, and let the community and ourselves support you through that process. Because I think most of this is psychological. I think most of this is... Look, if there's a coffee drink or you drink caffeine like on top of this, or is this just kind of right before your workout, you take these pills? It's usually after my workout. I don't drink coffee, but I do drink an energy drink, maybe once or twice a week. Yeah, so there's only up until now, okay? When it comes to like weight loss and in that is fat, but if you eat enough protein and strength train properly, there's really only one thing so far that's been shown to be quite effective and it's a peptide. It's not a supplement.  The stimulant based ones definitely showed some effect, but there was always a rebound and there was always a price to pay. Are you reading these, Sal? Are you reading these up here? I'm going to... No, no, no. Lean BCAA. What's the name of the one that you're taking? So he didn't know. See, there's four up here. There's, looks like engine shred. There's lean mode. Transform and lean BCAA. Do you remember the name of yours? Lean mode. Lean mode. All right, well, when we get off here, why don't I... We can look at it. I will, let's pull up the ingredients. Yeah, yeah, Doug's got it right now. Yeah, yeah, so read those ingredients after. Green tea. Green tea, green coffee, CLA, a little carnage. I mean, none of these are unhealthy. There's some antioxidant effects. L-carnitine, if you lack it, has got some nice effects on performance. But if you eat meat, you're getting plenty of carnitine. CLA is a type of fatty acid that has been shown in studies if you replace one fatty acid with that one. If he has a cup of coffee and a steak, he takes care of most of this. This is, you know, no disrespect to this company or whatever. I'm sure they're a great company. But really, it's like a... This is kind of like an antioxidant supplement that might maybe have some potential health benefits. But no, there's nothing in here that... It's doing nothing for you without loss. Waste your money. No, it's also not hurting. I think you're right. Yeah, I think it is a lot psychological and just having it is a psychological effect. But I think you guys are right. How long have you been taking this one? This one in particular, probably about six months. So you spent like 70-something dollars on this? That's not bad. Well, no, that's not bad, but how many of our programs you own? He's got the right one. He's got the right one. He just started listening to that long ago. I know, I was like, I'm sorry. And he's on the right track. I'll tell you what, Ray. This is what I'm going to tell you right now. If the best investment you can make if you want to spend money and you want to get a huge return for body composition, performance, muscle, a lot of stuff is if you find yourself a good trainer, a good coach who's got good experience and just work with them a little bit, you can do like once a month sessions or find one that works online, somebody that's good, that'll pay you back way more results than these supplements. Or you just keep listening to the podcast and I just put you in the forum for free where you have a community of great trainers and ourselves in there. So I got you.  It's not really hurting, but it's not doing you any favors. So save the money, get in there, talk to us, communicate with us as you go through the process. How long are you been doing the 40? Did you just get it started? The 40 plus program? I did. I'm in the phase two. Okay, beautiful. Just started phase two. How's it going so far for you? So far so good. I feel a little bit stronger. I'm a little confused about like the off days. So I've just been adding like part of you know, as far as like 20 minutes of run or 20 minutes of biking in between the actual workout days. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, no, we'll see you in the forum, dude. We'll give you some help. Okay, that sounds great. Thank you so much. You got it, man. All right, dude. He just found the podcast. It looks like a one month. Yeah, I saw that. It was a new listener. Yeah, he's just getting into it right now. Yeah, that's frustrating. Well, it's frustrating because so much of the information that's put out there by our space, it creates this narrative that supplements do so much more than they do. The most effective supplement that exists, hands down period, end of story is creatine in terms of what it actually delivers.  It's not gonna change everything. Not unless you're vegan. Everything else is under that. Now, by the way, this is coming from a supplement addict. I have issues with supplements. I would take waste of money supplements, but I make a lot of money and I can waste that kind of money. And I also know that I got a problem. And I'm not gonna communicate that to somebody who asked me.  Does that work for you? And I'm like, no, it doesn't. So typically when I have clients, like this is what I would actually ask that first. I'm just like, you know, what's your disposable income look like, bro? Like can you burn 300 bucks a month? Like it ain't no thing. If you can, then okay. And if, cause here's the other part that you have to understand too. And we don't have this guy on a day-to-day basis as a client right now is if the psychological part is so powerful that that's also what we get him to eat better or show up to the gym because he took his supplement, right?  That's like the dude's lucky stalks when he plays basketball. Exactly. It's like his uniform that, it's the same weight as buying new clothes for the gym. That's right. Like, you know, if that motivates you to be consistent. Well then it's worth it. And that's how I communicate this to someone like, listen, it's not helping you really. It's not really hurting you at all. It's a waste of money. But if you notice that, hey, when I, cause I noticed it about myself, when I, like except for it's reverse for me, like I have a hard time taking any of the supplements and pills I'm supposed to take. But when I'm training and I'm consistent, I tend to do that, right? So it's like, there's a connection there of, hey, I'm better when I'm doing these things. If you notice that when you take that supplement, and I used to be like, this is a kid when I used to take lots of supplements, is when I take that as a kid, when I 30 bucks was a lot of money to me, and I took a scoop of something, it was like, I gotta work out. So it's like, there's that, there's that psychological part that it's okay. Look, if you want to diet, exercise, sleep, lifestyle, but if you want to take something that has been shown like unequivocally, that'll help with some of that stuff. And again, this isn't Trump, what I just said, diet, sleep, exercise, lifestyle, didn't go with a GLP one agonist, and you can go through a doctor, we work them MPHormones.com, there's no fat burner that's ever existed in the world that'll compare with something like that, and that even won't fix all your problems. Our next caller is Julia from Canada. Hi Julia. Julia, hello, hello. Hi guys. How you doing? I'm so excited, I'm fangirling over here. Yeah, all right. How can we help you? Well, I don't want to take up too much of your time, but it's an honor to speak to you guys, I've been a listener for a very long time, like episode 300 or something. Oh wow.  Appreciate the support. I won't take up too much of your time, so I'm gonna read my question, and just so I don't forget what I was gonna say. So I am 41, I have a sedentary job, I am not an athlete, I am not a trainer, I am not a hardcore gym rat. I am so average. I work out about four times a week and I try to maintain some cardio, but I hate it, team no swipe with Adam. I've always loved going to the gym for my own little personal stress relief and maintain my health, but I've never really had the time or opportunity to really go hard and go after it. So now I'm finally at a point in my life where I can do more, focus on myself, my aesthetics, hope to just do more than the bare minimum for my health. So my question is, have I now reached my maximum potential of what my body can do now that I'm 41? Is it too late to get the dream body now that I'm older without having any kind of background? So did I miss my chance for the newbie gains or am I destined to just stick with what I got? Well, first of all, four days a week is not average. I mean, four days a week, how long have you been consistent going to the gym? Years, I fall off every once in a while for a couple of months, but probably about a decade. I've been doing it really consistently about four days a week, probably for maybe about a year now.  So what is your, what's the goal now? Like you say, go to the next level. What do you mean? What does that mean for you? Aesthetics, she said. Be a hot mom. Like be specific. Be a hot mom. Yeah. Okay. So what does that mean? Does that mean like more muscle, leaner? Does that mean there's a specific look that you're looking for? Body parts. Yeah. Well, I live in Florida, so having to go to the beach often, not be embarrassed to go to the beach, look better, aesthetic goals, and also to be able to kick someone's butt if I had to. Well, that's awesome. You got great goals. You know, working out as consistently as you have been, and you do, you listen to our show, so I'm assuming you do good strength training. It's almost probably all gonna be about diet, consistency with diet. Is where are you gonna see the big aesthetic changes? Are you following any of our programs? What does your strength training program look like? I try. I have maps aesthetic, which is really hard, which is kind of like my follow-up question. I do have access to a big box gym. I have a home gym and kind of a more powerlifting gym. The box gym is easier for me to get to. I don't really like working out at home because my bed is here. This is where all my food is. And so it's harder to work on my aesthetic goals at the big box gym, having to fight for the weights and so forth. So I try my best with anabolic. And I do have maps 40 plus. I feel like that kind of maintains a little more of my physique. So all those programs are gonna be very good. So long as they're not, like aesthetic is really high volume. And for most people, it's too much volume, even for me. Maps aesthetic, I can follow rarely when everything's perfect. But if something's off, especially sleep, it's just too much volume for me as well. And that's true for most people, but maps 40 plus, maps anabolic, maps strong, mass performance, those are all gonna be really effective workout programs. It's gonna be the nutrition. This is where the big aesthetic changes happen. Now, if you weren't working out, we would be talking about your exercise program or if you weren't consistent. But the fact that you're consistent and four days a week is exceptional, it's gonna be nutrition. And so you're gonna have to be seven days a week consistent with nutrition, hit your protein targets, know what your macro should be, where your caloric maintenance is, and just be very, very consistent with that. And that's where you're gonna start to see the big visual changes that you're looking for. The one thing I will address with the workouts because I don't know about the workouts. And I literally just had a conversation with Katrina about one of her girlfriends, you guys are the same age. And she typically will help some of her friends out and giving them advice, the advice that she hears from, obviously me talking to her for so many years. And she's like, huh, I don't understand. I've got her eating her protein. I've got her doing this, we gotta do that. And she's just, she's not seeing the results anymore. I said, well, when was the last time you worked out with her? She goes, oh, it's been a while since she first started.  If she is pushing herself the way you know that I push you when you train.  She had been kind of lifting the same weight in a lot of these lifts that she's been lifting forever. And she just had this fear of adding more weight to the bar. So even though I don't know if this is something that you are challenged with at all, but sometimes when I have clients that have been lifting for a really long time and they're not seeing the results they want to, their bodies have gotten so adapted to the movements that they do. And they have like that, this is my weight. When I do dumbbell press, I do this weight. When I do squatting, I do this weight. Have you been stretching yourself and your capacity to do some of the lifts that we have in there? Is that you or no? Yeah, I try to add weight, but it might be some aspect to that little mind of her matter, kind of scared to add too much weight since I work out on my own. Scared to do it and failing in front of everybody at the gym that I don't know. So that could be it. Okay, so a combination of that with what Sal say is gonna be our secret recipe here, right? Like the combination of stretching your capacity a little bit, actually, you know, push yourself. Another way to solve that without like adding someone is actually a program that's really unique and different, right? So we could go a different route with the training program and so we'll stimulate some growth by doing just new exercises that are unique. That's one way that we could do this. And then the other is to really attack the nutrition. The other thing that's most of my female clients struggle with is consistently hitting the protein intake. How do you do with that? Yeah, there you go. So there's- Yeah, I don't wanna comment, it's bad. Well, no, no, that's good though. It's good that you're- It's good that we have a very clear answer. Yes, like right there, the two things I just hit on will literally start to completely shift and change your- If you think you're gonna move the needle right there. Yeah, do you have a target body weight? I'm probably not realistic what I look like in my 20s, so. Well, let's, okay, the reason why I asked is hit your target body weight in protein.  It's typically in the low 20s or high teens, but typically around 20, 21% body fat.  You can maintain it, it's not extreme. And so figure out where that would be, what body weight that would place at. Hit your body weight in grams of protein, eat that first from Whole Foods, and that alone should make a pretty significant difference in both fat loss and then the sculpting part. But it's diet at this point, Julie, it's 100% diet. I can't stress enough the impact that consistently, and I'll give you a number, 135. Hit 135 grams of protein every day. I know that's close enough without even seeing a test that'll do you just right. If you're hitting 135 grams of protein every day and you're consistently following one of the programs, it will absolutely, give me 30 days. Just start with a goal like that, like, okay, 30 days. I'm gonna commit to the boys. It's like 45 grams of protein, breakfast, lunch, dinner.  And just between that and you consistently following one of the programs, even not even stretching your capacity, like I said, because what I think will happen is you'll naturally start to feel yourself. Oh, you'll get stronger. You'll get stronger. And then you'll be able to, it'll be that much easier to add weight to the bar. But that is, it's so paramount to building muscle. And building muscle is so paramount to speeding your metabolism up, to make leaning out and sculpting that body that you're wanting to. And you are not at all too old. No. Not at all. No. Absolutely. My most fit clients, most of them are in their 40s in just in terms of aesthetics. Do you have an idea of how many grams of protein you're eating now per day? I was tracking it for a minute, but it wasn't good. Basically it's just breakfast and dinner and a lot of eggs. This'll make a huge, what's a lot of eggs? How many eggs? Yeah, four or six. Yeah. Yeah. You're way under. If you're eating like 60, 70 grams of protein a day, which is probably what you're hitting.  So breakfast, 45 grams of protein. See what that looks like. Eat that first. If you want other stuff on top of that, that's fine, but eat the protein first. Then lunch, 45 grams of protein. Then you want some carbs and some vegetables. That's fine too. And then the same thing with dinner. You just do that, watch what happens. By the way, you're an example too of somebody who, if I had them just add a protein shake every day, would think that the protein shake is magical because just adding a protein shake with 30 to 40 grams of protein. You know why I didn't say that, Adam? Cause that's what she's gonna do now. Yeah, but. Hit the whole natural foods, do that. That's what I want you to go do, but that right away will start to make an impact. If you're struggling with hitting every night before you go to bed, if you did not hit that 135, you gotta finish the night with a protein. And do something light like a, the Bone Broth Paleo Valley drink. It's so easy to drink it. It's like so light that you could do a 40 grams of protein of that and just drink it super fast. Like find something like that at night that if you don't hit it, you at least do that. And consistently her adding 40 grams more protein a day is gonna make it easier. Now the reason why I said stick the whole natural foods is because you will get the appetite suppressing effect from the whole natural protein that you won't get from a protein shake. So if the goal is build muscle and lose fat without having to cut calories or track, simply eating that protein and eating it first from whole natural foods will automatically naturally bring your calories down to a point where you'll get leaner. So it satisfies everything. So if you just do that, if you just figure out what that 45 grams of protein looks like for those three meals, eat it first, the rest will take care of itself. And I'm literally not, I can't stress this enough.  Like this, especially because you've been working out consistently four days a week. It's like, you have no idea the rev limiter you put on yourself by not doing that. Julie, are you on Facebook? Can I put you in the private forum? I'm gonna put you in there and then I want you to check in with me once a month. Just let me know how it's going. If you're doing well, if you're being challenged, what are the challenges? Just give us an update on what's going on. And for now, the goal is follow the program you're doing. That's fine. You're fine on that route and just hit protein every single day. And at nighttime, if you look back and you're doing the math and you go, oh, man, I'm only at 60 grams or not. If you're under the 135, have a protein shake at the bare minimum. At least do that. Is there a reason why you said that right now you can really focus on yourself?  No, it's just my kids are now teens and they have their own lives and own cars. So I don't have to be the mom I want to go. Let's do this.  Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Stacey's mom. Let's go. Yes. Let's go. Get in the forum and check in with me and then we'll help guide you through this process. But I'm telling you right now, that's going to be massive if we do that. If you just give me 30 days, I think you'll feel and see and notice a difference. Yeah, you will. I appreciate it. Thank you guys. You got it. Thanks for calling in, Julia. We'll see you in the forum. Thank you. Appreciate it. You got it. If people only knew how big of a difference that protein would take made. By the way, that's a very common client. 100%. And listen, a lot of eggs. I know she had, let's pretend six eggs. Let's pretend. Nobody eats six eggs in the morning. Yeah, three. Okay, let's pretend it's six, okay? 40 grams of protein at best. She's having for breakfast. And then let's say she has a massive steak and another 40 grams at dinner. 80. Yeah, at best. I would bet money. She's averaging about 70 grams of protein. Or less, or less. And that person, and this is why too, I said add the shake because, and this is the type of person who thinks like a shake all of a sudden is miraculous because they're so grossly under consuming protein, you bump them by 30 to 40 grams, which is by the way, it's like doubling this person's protein intake. And they know, they all of a sudden the body goes, thank God, finally got what I needed. And it starts building some muscle. Blow their mind. Please do it, Julia. Our next caller is Josh from Canada. What's up, Josh? How can we help you? What's up? Hey guys, big fan of the show. So thanks for the opportunity. Thank you. All right.  I'm 45 years old, five foot seven. At the time I was 180 pounds. The in-body scanner said I was at 30% body fat. I started going to at 45 classes, quickly got hooked, getting up to six classes a week. Over the course of a year, the in-body scanner said I went from 180 pounds down to about 154. My body fat went from about 30 to 17%. During this time, my maintenance calories were around 2350 and I was eating 2000 calories a day to be in a deficit. So I didn't add obviously very much muscle during this time, but I think I looked the best I've ever looked. However, I had many symptoms of overtraining and under-eating. I had low libido, sore everywhere, several minor muscle strains, especially my forearms. My testosterone levels were already low, but after a year of overtraining and under-eating, they were even lower. So at that time, I started to work with a natural path. I started HRT, which is 100 milligrams a week of testosterone. Two, I use growth hormone daily. My mood, libido, energy improved. I switched from eating in the deficit to eating in a surplus. I aimed for 3000 calories and I got between 150 and 200 grams of protein, mostly from Whole Foods. I love protein bars, but other than that, mostly Whole Foods. I also stopped going to F45 and started strictly weight training, doing push-pull legs five times a week. I did two dexa scans 12 months apart and after the 12 months of strength training, it said I gained 11 pounds of muscle and a pound and a half of body fat. So at 45, I thought that was pretty awesome. That's great for those awesome results. That is. The problem is I attached two photos, one at 155 pounds and one more currently at 170 pounds. The problem for me is I think I look worse. Maybe it's the water retention from the TRT. My definition is gone. I kind of feel like I just looked fatter and unfortunately a lot of the nagging injuries are still there. So I kind of thought hopping onto TRT was like cheap code to getting jacked after 40, but that's not been the case for me. So since this December, I switched to training three times a week to allow my injuries to heal. I'm working with a physiotherapist. My muscle strains are definitely improving, but I really don't know where to go from here. I'm currently at 173 pounds. I'm kind of wondering if I bulked too far. Did I now stay at maintenance calories? Should I go back into a deficit? How should I adjust my training? We're looking right now at the photos. First of all, you did great and you definitely put on some muscle. Yeah, you look way better.  You were on a 2,000, you need 1,000 more calories and you reduced the volume of training and you didn't put on a crazy amount of body fat. I gotta ask you, I gotta pose something for you here for a second. Okay, would you rather, because here's the thing, I'm gonna tell you right now, the way that you are perceiving the way you look is a bit skewed and distorted. And here's how I know. Not because your opinion's wrong. I disagree with you. I think you look better the second one, but that's not the point. The point is you feel better, higher libido, more energy, and you're upset because you feel like you look worse. And so for you, it's almost as if you would trade looking better for having worse health than having better health and then in your perception, looking worse. So yeah, that's true. Right, so the issue here is a lot bigger and I'll give you advice on what I think you could do, but it's not gonna help you until you address that problem right there because you're healthier, you feel better, libido's back, energy's back, but you can't get around the fact that you're upset because of how you look and it doesn't look the way that you want.  We have to change that if we're ever gonna solve this problem permanently. Now I can give you advice on what I think and it's pretty easy, just 3,000 calories, you built a lot of muscle, reduce, cut your calories a little bit. Go to 2,500. Go to 2,500, as far as the injuries are concerned, I'd reduce the volume a little bit, maybe work on some mobility, that should help take care of the problem. You're probably still overtraining a little bit even though you built some muscle and stuff. Yeah, we should put him on one of our programs. He's been doing a five day a week type of deal. Let's put him on something else that I think we'll also. I'll put you on Maps Antibolic. Yeah, I'll put you on Maps Antibolic. Do the three day a week version with the trigger sessions. Do you have that program? So I purchased the 40 plus. Oh, that's fine, no, that's good. No, you're good. But I kinda, I would love to do Antibolic because to be honest, like, I know again, it's just my own perception, but to go from like a push, pull legs kind of routine to the 40 plus, in my mind I was like, ah, I'm going backwards. No, no, no. I'm not doing those big lifts that I wanna be doing. You're still doing big lifts in the 40 plus. The only thing we take into consideration are things like potential joint pain and stuff like that. Which by the way you mentioned. Yeah, so you're not taking a step back. If you train appropriately, you're taking a step forward. You're gonna get better results. Did you just start it? How far in are you? Yeah. I just started. Oh yeah, I would stick in with that, bro. Just let me stay with that.  I'll send you Maps Antibolic anyway. After 40 plus you can follow Antibolic. But it's not, but I think with what you said, especially with the nagging kind of pain, Maps 40 plus is gonna be the way to go. And I'll tell you this, dude. You can cut your calories, but you really gotta examine this attachment to... I'm gonna tell you right now objectively. I'm a trainer. I know what healthy looks like to extend or whatever. You look better in the second picture, but that's not the point. The point is you're more upset looking in a way you don't like, even though all the health signs are better. And you don't wanna be in that place because what'll happen is you'll consistently sacrifice your health in the pursuit of something that you'll never accomplish, which is being happy with the way you look.  So it's like a lose, lose situation. So I'm gonna tell you what I want you to do, and then I'm gonna tell you what you're gonna be challenged with and then just trust the process here.  Now what's gonna happen is you're not gonna lean out fast because you're feeding yourself a good amount of calories still. That it's gonna be a nice, slow, gradual process. And keep the protein. So what I don't want you to do is cut down to 2,500 and go, I'm not seeing results fast enough.  Allow the good training and the proper amount of volume, the recovery and all that, and feeding the body properly to just let it do its work. And you're gonna land somewhere right between those two pictures in my opinion. You're not gonna look so gaunt or shredded like you were in the other one.    A lot of what you're feeling right now is you're eating 3,000 calories. You're definitely holding more water. Testosterone does that also. But you're healthier. All the signs are saying you needed to be fed. You needed to back off all that volume. We need to probably scale back on the volume even more. That's why 40, Maps 40 is gonna be great for you. And then just cut your calories to 2,500 to 2,800 in that little range. Just stay there and just make good choices. You know, I don't know if you're like a, it fits your macros type of person or you're trying to eat whole foods, but do your best to eat whole foods and target that 2,500 to 2,800 calories and let the programming do the rest. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, and give me- I was just gonna say I totally do that, right? Like if I go to 2,500 calories, which is maintenance and then a month later, I don't see any differences. I'm like, shit, I gotta cut, I gotta cut more. I know that. I know that. With a good program and at 2,500 calories, you'll probably build and lose, you'll probably build muscle and lose body.  You shouldn't feel like you're starving. You shouldn't feel like you're overstuffing. It's gonna be a nice spot for you. Just give me through the program, Josh. Follow the program, eat that weight, trust the process. Then afterwards, then we can assess where you're at, how you feel and what you wanna do from there, but you're heading the right direction and I think you're gonna be really happy with the end result if you trust the process. Cool, thanks, guys. All right, Josh. You got it, man, thanks for calling in. Good luck, man. Thank you. Yeah, you know, you hear that sometimes.   Like, that's not necessarily a good trade. And then eventually what people don't realize is even if you stay there, if he stayed in that first picture and just continued to ignore his body signs, his body would deteriorate and he would not get the look that he was looking for. Well, I wanna address what he said about joint pain, feeling a little puffy and stuff. What he did was, and this is his personality, which is why I knew what advice to give him is he's an overcorrector. So he went from being super lean, okay, now I need to go the other. And so he overcorrected and bulked harder and faster than he needed to. And he still is doing too much volume. So reducing his volume, feeding his body more appropriately and then letting it, like he's gonna feel better. Oh, it feels amazing. Yeah, inflammation will come down. He won't feel and look puffy to him and he'll be doing less work. It'll be a psychological piece. Can he be disciplined to just trust the process and know that you're not gonna see major week to week changes, but you should feel good. You should feel strong in the gym. You should feel the joint pain starting to come down, getting stronger, feeling fed. Like that's how you should feel. Totally. Look, if you like Mind Pump, find our Body Fat Lost Guide. It's free at mindpumpfree.com, teaches you how to lose body fat and it's totally free. You can also find all of us on social media. Justin is on Instagram at Mind Pump, Justin. I'm on Instagram at Mind Pump to Stefano. And Adam is on Instagram at Mind Pump, Adam.