I heard that they, they released a little, a little white text on black background. Apology. I suppose to rewite a little bit. People don't even know this is a thing, which I think is hilarious. It's like so gone. Yeah, I didn't know this game was like coming out until it essentially came out. Yeah. And, uh, so I can't give you why it has the most absurd recommended in minimum specs I've ever seen.  So rewind like years and when I found out this thing was even remotely like started up in terms of production, it was like you're going to play as golem running around, I guess, Mordor. And it was like, why? Of all the Lord of the Rings games you can make. I mean, I'm not going to say that there's no potential there. Sure. There is something you wanted to make like a stealth game, you know, having golem would be appropriate. You know, there's something. Why not play as Proto and Sam? I guess, you know, why not? Close the controversy around this. Oh, well, we're getting there, right? So that they, they do that as like they're, they're outset. They're like, we're just gonna make a golem game. So okay. And every once in a while there's been updates and it just looks terrible, like not, not just looks terrible, but like the whole situation looks terrible. And I just, I keep it, I've been keeping an eye on it with a friend and we've been going back and forth sharing things about how funny this game looks and how it just, I didn't realize it was coming out so soon. I thought he had another year or something. And it comes out. Well, before it comes out, the requirements came out. For PC, which rise, you read them out a couple days ago. Do you remember what they were? Yeah. Let me, yeah, let me grab them real quick. I think they're on this channel. Scrolly, scrolly, upy, upy. Give me a second here. It's a miracle in terms of gaming and a lot of people have heard about it already, but we will. Lucidate some of the grander events that relate to it because it's back in funny. I'm not even sure who made it. I don't know who Daedalus is. I do not know if this company is like some shitty third party job. Die Daedalic or Daedalic entertainment. G.B. Daedalic, Daedalic, Daedalic. Yeah, I've never heard of them, but. All right, here, I'll get them for you. All right, so behold. This is insane. Let us let me draw your attention to if you want to play this game at 1080p frame rate of 60 at medium settings, then it is recommended that you have an RTX 3060.  There is no way that you should need a card of that umph in order to play a game at 1080p 60 FPS on medium settings in 2023 as well because like part of this is that if you look at the game, maybe it could be justified by like a huge complicated blah, blah, blah. This is a little goober running around in caves. And this is this. This is like with ray tracing off like with it on. Yeah, the recommended is like an RTX 4070. It's yeah, it's it's nuts. Like I wouldn't like I have a 4090. I wouldn't touch this game. I'm like, no, there's just no way I'm not I'm not doing this. This is madness. And the funny part is, I think the, you know, you got the cat it run crisis.  I don't know how it got to this point, right? But so this is already a thing and it's like war that the implication here is optimization is fucked like they've not done enough work to really to say the bells and whistles on sort out would be an understatement. So it comes out and is it the worst reviewed game of the year so far already? I think the PS5 one is the worst and the PC one is the second worst of the year. I think that it might be the other way around. I can't move. It's looking bad. I saw of, you know, clips and different pieces of review as it's filled with bugs, definitively incomplete and the missions you're like gollum. I think I don't even know if you're immortal, but like one of the missions I saw skill up trying to explain it.  You know how gollum would never do. This is like the mechanics of like an Atari 2600 game. Why would gollum give? Why would gollum do that?  Well, I read some of the some of the reviews and like, you know, like you used to playing role-playing games with complex moral decisions. So gollum doesn't always need to do this. You are given moral decisions like for example, squash the creature or let it live. They don't actually impact the plot or your character particularly because your character as I understand it doesn't grow or gain new skills or alignment.  And that is, that is storytelling apparently. My favorite one, I think for the optimization thing, I was reading one of the reviews and one reviewer was trying to get through it and it was crashing like every five seconds. They went into the settings and found a specific setting for something like gollum hair animation. And if you turn that off, it makes his hair look slightly less greasy, but your game will run 40% better. But is it worth not having the grease? Dude, don't go to his character. I think it was definitely worth it for that just slight extra hair movement that you'll get. Like absolutely is not so luscious locks. So the game is awful and if not the like actual running of it being the biggest problem, it's just terrible. Like in terms of if it was working fully functional with no bugs, it would be awful too, right? They've got like big issues to say the least. Now the team behind it, they've follow suit with a lot of, you know, the standard sort of approach that terrible modern gaming has where they release a giant wall of text right on cue. And a lot of you will notice very quickly, what are the things of this? Like this is already bad enough news seeing something like this, right? But if I just read out, the Lord of the Ring, that does, yes, as dear players, we would like to sincerely apologize for the underwhelming experience many of you have had with the Lord of the Ring gollum. I keep adding the verb by chat. It's Lord of Ring. It's so bad. How did you ring? Oh, I thought it was Lord of the Ring. I keep instinctively adding the verb. It's Lord of Ring, the Lord of Ring gollum. Do you think when they realized that was there, they were like, oh, fuck, we can't repost this. Like, they must be like, we are digging ourselves deeper with every passing minute. The devs decided to like instead of retyping it all out, they just reposted the image. But they got like a little, like a doodle line from paint and they marked it out and added a little squiggly S and red or something like that. Like a little there, a little there above with like an arrow pointing down into like where it should go.  And it's so sad to write because like everyone's just talking about how in my day, games used to release complete. That was fun. It's like, yeah. You still get some games that release completed, right? That Zelda game. That's complete. Yeah. Those renecs, Resident Evil, Dead Space and Ragnarok, they all came out complete.  Well, I can forgive patches if you've got something they didn't expect. Something like a great game breaking bug that someone found or like duplicate. I think the Zelda got a patch recently to stop people from duplicating items. You know, that's kind of part of the course, especially with millions of people playing a game. But when your game doesn't even fuck, like you're updating it so you can add a campaign.  So, yeah. You know, it's... God, do you remember Early Access? That's still going in there. That's just like... Yeah, that's still a thing. It's like that quickly just became a standard instead. Because... I guess at least without the access stuff, it's like labeled as such as like working progress. Label disaster. There was another wall of attacks that came out for the last of us, right? It's because I think there was like recently a Bloomberg report, the TLDR, as I understand it was. They'd been working on it for a while. Bungie took a look at it. They had concerns. So now the project is a... It's kind of like... It's kind of in a weird place, apparently. Which is the multiplayer. Yeah, that they've been working on for a while. But yeah, so who knows about what's going on there. But yes, they also posted the text thing of like... But I guess as it's different, it's like, yeah, we're still working on another game. But yeah, I don't know. I guess we'll see what happens on that front.   But both of them sort of recovered because even though they were terrible on launch, you could sort of look at them and say, well, I see there is some potential here. If it worked, it might be okay. Whereas from what I've gathered from Godham, no one so far who's played this game says I can imagine it being worthwhile. Yeah, I think No Man's Sky is one of those legendary redemption arcs where they actually just like yuckled down and like went radio silent for like six months and then just released a massive patch that fixed like, you know, 90% of the issues. They're still updating it to this day. And I think that game came out 2016, but I'm pretty sure they're still actively updating and adding their stuff. Yeah, they went ham on it.  I mean, to be fair, they did kind of make this problem for themselves. Oh, well, I promise an insane stuff that they could never possibly deliver. I'll always recommend the Internet story and video on it for like getting loads of context, but you're not, you're not wrong. There's loads of mistakes they made along the way, but they've done, I think, the best they can. I'm not sure what else they can do at this point, which is good. Hopefully the Gollum team will show similar resolve and we will get it. Gollum team, team Gollum. I can't wait to play the Lord of Ring Gollum personally.  Or a sumo movie. Oh, yeah. It's maybe just like, you know, you get those knockoff movies, like the asylum release things, like the Lord of Ring, like done on a budget of like 500 bucks. I could see it. The cheap Chinese knockoff film that's poorly translated. So anyway, they got the license from to make a Lord of the Rings movie from someone. So I suppose, you know, obviously it's an officially licensed Lord of the Rings product. That's something. Do you think they just got the rights to Gollum and like nothing else in the world? Oh, yeah, that's right. That might be a thing because that's like with Rings of Power with Amazon's money, they were only able to get the rights to like some appendices of whatever. Ten-thirty pages, yeah, appendices versus... So, yeah, that's why we... Look, we ain't seeing Morgoth, guys. I don't think it's happening. All of you Morgoth fans out there, you might not get to see him. Like old golfers. It would be like Gollum sneaking around like unnamed dark like desert land. You can't say Mordor. I think they have got Mordor. I think you travel all over Middle Earth. I get, I think they've got some location rights.  You're not going to Bilbo's house with Ian Holm there. Oh boy. I sure do love being a hobbit in the Shire at my house. I sure miss my friend Gandalf the Grey. There's lots of potential there. We'll we'll check in in five years from now, see if Gollum team have come through. Who knows? I have faith. Hang in there, Gollum team. Don't give up. We are gathered here today. It's like Gollum made a game, maybe. Gollum is the developer. Hell yeah. I can see him making some games. You know what his imagination can bring us. It's just like smacking fish against the keyboard, trying to code. No, that kind of explains how we ended up with this there. You know, not not a bad try for the first. Anyway, we we we we're here to answer a simple question that has been plaguing the world of I don't know Star Wars for centuries or rather as long as Andor has been out. There's lots of this. This is one of them kind of controversial topics because Andor was enjoyed. We are five Andor enjoyers right here. It was enjoyed by many several people, but it was also not enjoyed by many to the point of abandoning it as they started it up or close to. And so they became a question of whether or not it is considered Star Wars because whether or not is good. It's kind of a conversation that got moved past because everyone either says yet is good or I don't know. I didn't think it was that great, but I didn't watch all of it and so kind of feels like the goods have it. But is it Star Wars? And you know, it's a it's a fair question kind of in the same vein that gets asked in like how many. Hey, drink it. How many Indiana Jones movies are there? Three. Hmm. Little platoon. How many Star Wars movies are there? Seven. I'm eating red one. All right. Yeah. Let's see. I feel like chat might have different answers on all this. I don't think you know it's it's good to ask that question a bunch of people because a lot of the times you you might get. I guess if you want to get your super purist, you could say two and a half and then maybe you could expand that to six and then someone might throw in, you know, like Rogue One or a lot of people might stick to six or they might say six and and or some people might just say three. They might say only this. I just count. Yeah, that. Oh, yeah, that's true. As I was running through that joke in my head, I actually forgot the sequel sort of existed. Wow.  I think I actually forgot the sequels existed for a second. This is my job and I forgot about it. Oh my goodness. How many Jurassic Park films are there? One. Because I would say three and I hate two of them, but I would still acknowledge them as Jurassic Park films. Well, you know what that kind of gets us into a position where we can start figuring out the answer to that question. But instead of doing it like we could do where we have us all discuss it extensively first. We can have someone else set the stage for us. Can we not? Yeah, I suppose so. I think we have that kind of power. Yeah, so this is a video called Why Andal Isn't Real Star Wars and made by a gentleman in November of last year. And he's got a follow-up. Let me, uh, this is not my first encounter with this conversation. I do have a little bingo sheet of arguments like this. Well, which doesn't feel like Star Wars. It's boring. Post it for us. No one asked for it. I've written it down on pen and paper because I'm really old fashioned. So I can't. No old fashioned bingo sheet. Does it like that? That's not how bingo started. Bingo requires that you do five things in a row. You can't just make a list. Unless they have to be five consecutive ones on the list. Oh, you have like a grid system. That would be easy enough to do. Yeah, because that's that's that's what that's what we call bingo. Well, so you just said I have a check. Just say checklist. That's a bingo thing because you can play bingo with a checklist. If you rearrange a bingo board, you can turn it into a check. You can only in the sense of how do you know consecutively up and down? How do you know when you've got bingo other than the because you do the grid? Isn't bingo like the do the grid? And then if you get, yeah, but you get the but you put a list. You got a line in any one direction. Rearrange it. It becomes bingo. And then you do like if I if he does three, that's all line of how the thing is it? This is generally like we started off talking about Star Wars and now we're getting into a deep and meaningful conversation with bingo. It's generally considered against the spirit of bingo to rearrange all of the things in such a way that you can manufacture for. Yeah, but normally how it goes that much is to arrange the board before you begin. All right. I'm genuinely tempted to go and turn this into a bingo game live so I can just prove our seven viewers who are above the age of seventy four are going to be really upset at your at your your butchery. And she's like one guy listed right. I was like, they better be playing that bingo properly. I've been playing bingo for forty seven years and that's not how the games played. Oh, there's a good Agnes over there.  But man, she's makes good cookies. She's very good cookies. That's why people keep inviting her is like, well, we might not win bingo, but those are some pretty good cookies. So Agnes makes a mean batch of cookies. Are you guys ready for whatever this may entail? I would obviously on the list. I assume it's there will be to be on mine would be doesn't contain lightsabers. Yep, that's definitely on the list. No Jedi. No one asked for it. Which is right. It dies. We already know what happens. No force powers. Yeah, that's definitely going to be there. No Jedi. No Sith. No lights. No force. No Yoda. No Boba Fett. No Sarlacc pit.  No, um, you're just like Dave. Every single creature at Java's palace one by one really slowly from make sure you got his middle name, right? No rank. Salacious be crumb. That's it. Be crumb. Oh, nice. I'd sounded right. It sounded right. That's that's what they say. Yo, Salacious be crumb. And he's like, Salacious be crumming. Well, actually he says that because that's just how he talks to sound like a Salacious. Okay, gotta give a warning. The way this video starts is very 2008 ish. You were wise. This is made in November. Yeah. Well, so it's like a movie Bob video. Kind of. Yeah. So, um, you know, have you have a mouse over your volume control? That's all I'll say. In fact, I'm going to lower it right now ahead. There we go. Oh my goodness. Okay. How? Whoa. So what pulls it to spare us the incredible tunes? Why would you do that? No. Do you remember all the the videos back in the day that would just begin with something like this and had Dubstep and show? Yeah. Really loud Dubstep 009 sound systems, YouTube library. Ideally make it as obnoxiously long as possible as well. Like at least 30 or 40 seconds of just pure and true. Oh, well, he's cut it down. Cut to guy in room. Cutting guy in room. Come on. Hi, everybody. Yeah. Yeah, I'm in room. It's it's like, yeah, this this bombastic super cool. Kind of. Well, it's the thing, right? You'd be like, I don't think that really grabs the vibe of, you know, the video. You don't why, uh, why not go for something a little more chill and stuff? What do you with an intro like that? What would be the suitable video?   It's not what is what is what is going on? Isn't it? So please don't say coming at you. I hate when they say that. They always say that. I'm not coming at you live through the power of the internet. No, what? Definitely not that one. Not that. But hey, we got Dr. Who Spider-Man X-Man. True. Yeah, we've got the you got the TARDIS. Funko box. Comic books. You got the comic books on the wall. I would say certified nerd. So maybe getting some. We got a Funko Pop. It's okay to have a couple. It is okay because someone bought it for you and it's like, okay, I got two. I have I think one and it's the Mr. Freeze one and someone did buy it for me. It's not my fault. I didn't. Oh, that's a good one to have. I have a good one to have. Brimstone and Palawa Joko. So there's a couple that a couple that have there. You know, you have a couple. But once you start hitting three. Oh, okay. Watch, watch, watch it. As soon as you can get a pyramid out of it, you might have some problems. Yeah. Yeah. A little while ago, I put out a video. Talking about how Andor was doing so poorly on Disney Plus. Why is it so confused by his own admission there? I know. Um, did Andor probably did do poorly, right? Unfortunately. Or earlier than they thought it would be. Paulia. Paulia than they needed it to be. I had imagined. Do we have figures for it? No. Yeah. Going from the general enthusiasm of promotion of the whole show, right? It's gone from being like Andor would have been like, yeah, we'll get a season two or some sometime. Well, I guess it would be more. I'm pretty sure it was like definitely not the plan that season two would be the end, but season two is the end. And it's like, why is that happening? Probably because not enough people. Not enough people. Yeah. Well, uh, you know, if someone wanted to be honest, like, do you think it's because it's bad? It's like, no, I don't think it has anything to do with it being bad. It's to do with how horribly delivered it was. It came after Kenobi, Boba Fett and two seasons of Mando, which it's to do with the rest of Star Wars being shit. Yeah. Um, do we need to state? I guess at the beginning, our, what are our opinions on Andor for anyone who doesn't know? Um, well, I think a lot of us think it's good to great. I think it's really good. Yeah. I think it's really good. I think it's the best Star Wars content since I guess the Empire Strikes Back slash a few parts of Return of the Jedi. Um, it's like, it's really good.  Yes. Um, yeah, but we're very pro Andor. I am at least. Well, and we've even talked about how, uh, even we weren't, we didn't watch it as it came out. We had to be told to go back and watch it.   Um, yeah. Cause like, I still remember us watching that first episode and we were like, Oh, this is a thing. Yeah, we were surprised. I remember when we were smaller and Platoon and I covered it on open bar one evening. Uh, I think we've seen like the first three episodes dropped and yeah, like pretty much every time we covered a Disney Plus Star Wars show, it was just laughing at how comically inept and ridiculous it was. And in this one, it was like, wow, we're starting to pick through some interesting character arcs. There was, there was interesting stuff to discuss. You know, it was this weird dawning realization of, well, they actually, they put a bit of thought into this and there's quite a lot to work through. Yeah, we were really surprised. Like opening scenes with several characters had a lot of characterization and it was consequences of like an original action, which was with, you know, when he kills the two guys, a lot of things spring from that. Really close in. Yeah. It's just, it just felt weird because we were so used to everything else. And I was even going to say, like, uh, you know, why, why would you watch Bad Delorean almost religiously compared to dropping off of Adored? It's like, well, that's the thing. Mando's like cringe and we do enjoy a bit of cringe. We find it amusing. It's like cringe connoisseurs. It engaging. And all was good. And then we just like had stuff to do and just fell off and we're like, oh fuck, it's just like a TV show is waiting to be watched. And, you know, that combined with people who didn't want to watch any Star Wars anyway, goodbye with the people who don't care about Andal because why would you care about Andal? I understand that as well.  It's really sad rules. So that that's the aspect of it being fundamentally closed ended. So it's not, it's not something you need to watch to understand any subsequent Star Wars thing. We already know it's the argument you often hear. Well, we already know how it ends. We've already seen one. It's not got a huge amount of open space in front of it. It doesn't mean it can't be really good in its own right because I agree. I think I think it is, but unlike something like the Mandalorian or certainly any new Star Wars sequel film, you sort of need to watch those to understand where the universe is moving to in the longer term. Whereas Andal is just kind of, well, if you're really interested, you can see it. You don't have to, though, to understand Rogue One. It's true, though. I'm hoping by the time we finish season one and two of Andal, Rogue One will be better for it. We'll be able to watch him be like, oh, that's that's better now. To get more eyes in front of it. Now, Disney was saying, you know, it wasn't because it was doing poorly. They just, you know, thought since it's the holidays, they would put it out there. So, you know, people who might not have seen it will watch it and then move on to Disney Plus to finish watching it.  Yeah. They'll never say that. They're never going to go like poorly. It's like if they don't say what the numbers are, the numbers weren't good.  When they're asked for an assessment of Echo when that gets dropped, I'm sure they'll say like, well, it actually did break several records like overperformed expectations. We won't tell you what those are. We've had all kinds of reviews saying it's one of the best TV shows I've ever seen. So I like the creative ways they go to do it. It's when HBO says of Velma, it was the the most watched HBO original animated content ever released on HBO Max. It's like, qualify, qualify, qualify, qualify. Yeah. The 17 asterisks that come along with the nose. Great. It's great. And what would you say if they if it came out and they just went, yeah, it was bad. People didn't watch it. Yeah, we're not doing that again. It would be so refreshing to get a studio that was super honest about all this stuff and be like, yeah, we fucked up there. You guys didn't like that, huh? Well, okay. Well, we'll write that down in our notes. No more the white text background. We're sorry for the inconvenience we've caused. We're sorry that our work didn't live up to the expectations of the audience, etc.  Oh, and someone just said that Rip Willow. Yes. Willow has been torn off Disney Plus. Oh, yeah. That's right.  Yes. Yeah. He went to Twitter. He's like, no, no, no, no, guys. Season two. This was back in March. He was like, no, no, no, no, guys. It's not canceled. We just said the actors can go off and do their own other stuff. And we're not going to be like, we'll team up again someday. Maybe next year or so. And I mean, it's so bad that less than five months after the last season is we're removing it from our streaming server. No, no, no, it's it's fine. It's not canceled though, right? I mean, there's there's hope for a season two. Well, there's this one of the writers on it was a guy called John Bickerstaff. And there was an article from Forbes saying it's your last chance to see how bad the new Disney Plus Willow show is before it's gone for good. And he just replied to the spirit. He replied saying, hey Forbes, get fucked. It reminds me of that Simpsons moment where Hope was trying to get the pig and it's like the pig being Willow in this case and it's like getting hit by mud and water and all these different equilities like it's still good. It's still good. Yeah, you can still watch it. It's still there. I did find Willow highly entertaining though. It was one of my favorite things to watch just for a while. I don't think I've gritted my teeth so much in a TV show like ever. It was so insufferably annoying. Like I just found all the characters so so 2022. I just couldn't believe he is acting. That was really shocking. How dare he mean? I wish I knew more lines because it's fun. He's a nice guy.   This has ever lived. You are the chosen one. You have to save the world. That sounds like it's got two emotions in there, right? Too much emotion. You're going to break it down a bit. Lightly.  Nice guy, I'm sure.  You cannot act.  Or he can, but he knew what he was doing. Or you can, or you knew what you were here for. I don't want people to confuse this with my actual famous role.  Well, he did say he was channeling Mark Hamill's Luke Skywalker from the TLJ era, which you can kind of see in the complete absence of hope in his performance. Absence of anything looking like a human being. He's just like, I'm just dead all over. Yeah, that's that's not why they did that. They did it because it's it's doing poorly. No real Star Wars fans are watching this. Oh, the cringe. No real Star Wars fans are watching this. Well, I watched it and I, I guess, you know, all things considered, I guess I would consider myself a real Star Wars fan. No, I think. Do you consider yourself a real Star Wars fan? What does that mean? What are you, what are you? You can't ask me the question because I asked you the question. I am a fan of those three movies that came out ages ago. I'm a fan of the prequels. I like some of the things that Disney have done from that IP called Star Wars. Does that make me a Star Wars fan? Yes. I think I'd have to go with yes. So I hesitate because of what Star Wars is these days is a horrible mess. I mean, it's like I'm not a fan of that, but. That isn't all of Star Wars, right? Right, I guess. Like, yeah, I guess it depends what you mean. What do you reckon? I mean, I would you consider yourself a fan drinker? What about you? I would consider myself a fan of Star Wars. Am I a real fan? Hmm. Hey, I mean, I'm kind of in the same position as you is like, I like the OT really good. Got fond memories of that. Kind of enjoyed the prequels for what they were and, you know, felt really disillusioned by the what Disney have done with it. But then I don't have that encyclopedic knowledge of all the expanded universe stuff and, you know, every obscure TV show that they've put out. I just don't have that. So am I a am I a real Star Wars fan or just a casual? I don't know. Well, we watched and I guess we ruled out. I guess so. Yeah, I just seems like a pointless argument to make on his behalf. Like, if this is if this video is predicated on and or is not real Star Wars, like getting to that argument, don't start talking about like how successful it was with the viewers. That's that's not important. Um, I mean, I don't necessarily blame him for mentioning I just wish that the he would probably would include. I have a feeling we're going to be heading toward like it failed because it's not real Star Wars. We're just like, no, come on. The factors that involve the failure for this are a lot more. It was coming off Boba Fett and Kenobi. Why would you watch any Star Wars after that?  I actually like Boba Fett and Obi-Wan Kenobi. I don't even care about the Cassian Andor. But the thing is, like it's not like Disney cares if real Star Wars views of you a subscription is a subscription. They don't care if real Star Wars fans watch it or it's just random people tuning in to see it.  Well, let's just anybody got the real test going. How many of us are real willow fans and we saw Willow. So, you know, Oh, me. I am a big willow fan. Yeah, I love every couple of weeks. I watched the original movie weeks. Man, you have big gaps between it. I got it too. Yeah, it's a daily drug for me. I have to enjoy the afterglow of it before I get on to my next fix, you know, is a more charming time. I watch it in slow motion. Why would you watch a show about a side character no one really cared about from a movie? Because the story in and of itself can be something worth appreciating and it can be well written. His argument is not unreasonable, right? Because we all felt the same way. It's like, why would any of us be interested in Andor? Well, if I remember the story is going to end. We, you know, he's not a particularly interesting character based on the movie. So there's not a huge amount to draw us into this one. Yeah, the thing when we talked about it before it released, we would mention this as a reason why it's probably not going to get much engagement. It doesn't stop it from being good. It stops it from dragging people in to see it. This is the opposite of something like Boba Fett and Kenobi, like a whole show about Boba Fett, a whole show about Obi-Wan Kenobi between the OT and the prequels. Like, there you go.  He's like, oh, so I guess what this portrait of conversation is, is about hooking people in with premise and it's like, yeah, this wasn't the greatest hook. I don't really deny that at all. It's also, it's a slightly paradoxical argument to say, well, I'm a real Star Wars fan. Why would I watch anything that doesn't have the most immediately and obviously recognizable people in it? Like why would I be interested in the backstory and the well-building of parts of the galaxy I haven't already seen? I'm a real fan. I only want to see characters I already know. I think Disney is unfortunately sort of trained its audience in a way to expect certain things and want certain things. I think you look at like the Mandalorian and the kind of show that that is and you're like, oh, yeah, this is what you'll sort of expect now. True. And you know, this equal trilogy polarizes the audience. You know, having seen icons destroyed, people become sort of reflexively defensive of icons and they don't want any departure from the known and the familiar. It's a kind of reactionary element of the fan base, which I don't particularly like or agree with, but I just, yeah, I just don't really like being told that I'm not a real fan by somebody who has an incredibly limited idea about what Star Wars production scope could possibly be. And that's the thing at this point. I would prefer it if they said new movie coming out, brand new characters, different part of the universe. And it's this era that's vaguely between two things that you know happen, but has nothing to do with either of them. You're like, wow. All right.  The irony is like this, like Andor for as much as it's totally quite different from everything else we've seen from Disney Plus. It doesn't contain the familiar Star Wars elements that we look for, you know, like all the things that Platoon and Rags have listed. It's far better connected to the Star Wars universe than any of the other shows that we've seen. Because it actually like references things going on across the galaxy. You actually get a real sense of like what the state of play is in this world. It's almost like it has a world that it builds. That's what none of the other shows bothered to do. So is that the hot take? The not only do we believe this thing is Star Wars, but it's more Star Wars than most things Disney have made. If not all things Disney have made. It's a better, better real sci-fi world than most things. Yeah, it's better connected to the Star Wars world than anything else that they've they've created. TV wise at least. Yeah, I think so. You can even you can link it to like individual little lines. There's the line in, is it a new hope or is it Empire Strikes Back where they explain that the Imperial Starfleet can't be everywhere at once. The Empire can't be everywhere. So the rebels strike them where they're not. And you know that invites the question, what does the galaxy under Imperial rule look like when the Empire doesn't have the resources to manage and administer and enforce law and order in that particular region of the galaxy? And Andor's answers those, you know, they seem like really slight little world-building questions, but actually it's packing in an awful lot of depth to something that was previously just sort of invited and you could speculate about it. The old expanded universe showed a lot of it, but that's no longer in existence. Thanks to Miss Kennedy. So Andor actually is doing probably more than any Disney Star Wars show has done to rebuild all of that stuff and I quite like it for that. And rebuild it in a way that's actually believable as well. It kind of makes sense the structure. You know, you've got these like low level corporate security guys who just handle the day-to-day stuff. And you know, it's only when things get really serious that the Empire actually shows up physically to deal with it. It feels significant when the stormtroopers show up. Oh yeah, it actually elevates them to a meaningful threat as opposed to just the goons of the Star Wars universe they've become. But yeah, the private security thing was honestly one of my favorite things about it because it's it's a very historically and psychologically astute show. There's clearly a lot of work that's been done sort of researching the sort of the takeover of previously peaceful countries by sort of tyrannical fascistic regimes and the kind of person who always existed there who's elevated to a position of power and authority tend to be these these low level sort of inconsequential little grunts who've suddenly been given absolute power over their local districts and then it brings out the absolute worst megalomaniacal tendencies in them. And in order to show us all of this, it's kind of yeah, it was just really fascinating to watch multiple times in fact, because the more times you see that stuff, the more little bits of character that you pick out from it. Unlike Mando, where the more times you watch it, the more glaring the whole scene. That first scene with Cyril was actually like very persuasive in terms of like this is not like anything I've seen from Disney before, like whoa. And you've got that great sort of dichotomy between the ideological sort of convert in Cyril and the sort of physical grunt type person who really is only in it for sadistic reasons and that clash in personality when Cyril comes there all sort of bright and starry eyed with no real idea of how the imposition of power actually works and he's stuck with this sort of burly Scottish, no offence drinker, very physical man who shows him sort of the darker side of power. That's very effective. Well, and I love the guy he's reporting to who's like this, he's just been there for so long, knows how to get by without making too much noise, put things in the right place and just everyone can keep on going and be happy. That sort of, it makes everything feel a lot older and experienced. Convinced you this is a real thing that's happening in this world. A lived in world, you know? Yeah, it's just, could that not be what Star Wars is? Did it not feel that way? But hey, we'll let him get some more points out of here. What else we got? But needless to say, I got a lot of comments saying how I was wrong, how it's the bestest show ever. It's the most Star Wars show ever. Really good. It's even more Star Wars-y than Empire Strikes Back. I'm not saying it's more Star Wars-y than Empire Strikes Back. I'm not saying that, but I mean... You might be making a bit of a straw man here. I think you get some strong Empire vibes from it. I can't see many people ever saying that. Most people who love Star Wars love Empire. Empire Strikes Back has got like 40 years worth of time to develop this, you know, this thing. Yeah, this love. It's just been marinating in classic-ness for that long. It made Star Wars... It just took it into an incredible direction. I mean, I don't even know how to say if it could ever be unseeded, maybe, but I doubt it. Especially at this rate. It was very difficult to unseed something like that, but anyone's saying it's better than Empire.  The only thing that has a chance at this point... Except... I don't need it to draw that comparison. It doesn't have a better Empire in order for me to consider a worthwhile thing to watch. No, absolutely. That's the thing. It's clearing all of Disney.  And it's like, oh yeah, okay, I'll just say it's good then. That obviously clears all of Disney. It's like, oh, okay, yeah. It does, yeah. It makes it easily the best thing Disney's done in terms of the Star Wars, yeah. And also, this guy, tell us what a real fan is. You know, if you're gonna... That's a strong statement. If you're gonna make a strong statement like that, then let us know what is a real fan when it comes to Star Wars. What separates the real fans from the fakers or the trenders or something like that, you know? That's the kind of thing you should let us know. It's important. Better than the Empire Strikes Back. Well, I was confused as to why these people would... Love a show so much. Still confused. And then I was watching another YouTuber today and he brought up an article from GameRant from back in September when the show first aired or before the show aired. All right. And it all made sense. Okay. Tony Gilroy doesn't understand Star Wars. Uh-oh. So that's the showrunner if anyone didn't know. Oh, well, he doesn't understand Star Wars. I wonder what that show looks like if he does.  Well, if someone said Favro and Filoni understand Star Wars, I'd be like, oh... Yeah, because they do, I guess. Filoni and Favro, you know, I guess they understand Star Wars a lot and look what it's produced. I mean, those shows are Star Wars through and through.  They're awful. So what does it even mean to understand Star Wars? Maybe Star Wars needs, you know, fresh eyes and a new perspective and a new take because, boy, we just can't keep going down this route. Well, I'm curious, what did he say that disqualifies him for being a star? Understand or... Pretender to the Throne! What were you going to say? Not even necessarily a fresh perspective, but somebody who has... His love for writing is at least 50% of their love for iconography would be a good start. That's a new perspective. I guess it kind of is, actually. Where's Boba Fett? It's an old perspective that's being brought back as opposed to a completely brand new thing to the franchise. It was there 3,000 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Let's end of the article ourselves, shall we? Let's do it. Breedroy didn't mince words when he flat out said that he's not a fan fan of Star Wars. Wait, no, I want the full quote. What do you say? Well, I'm more than happy to tackle something out of context. I just want to, you know, because we can imagine some stuff on top of it, but I want to know what it is. Because not a fan fan? It's like that could mean a lot of things. Yeah, because the thing that this guy said is not a fan. He said not a fan fan. That's a funny sentence now. I mean, considering our conversation earlier, right, where I was like, oh, I'm not too much of a fan of, you know, a lot of what Star Wars is now, but I'm also a fan of it. Well, so my first read of not a fan fan, if somebody said that would be, yeah, like I like it, but like I'm not, you know, like it's not like my most favorite thing like ever in the world. Like I'm not obsessed with it.  As opposed to not a fan which kind of tells me like, oh, so you don't like, you're not very familiar with it at all or potentially that you don't even like it. None of it precludes you from being able to write a really good Star Wars story. It's true. If you're talented and you've got good ideas and you're also willing to do the research so that you can make sure it doesn't conflict with the world, then there's nothing to stop you being perfectly good at this. You don't have to like love it as the best thing in the world. It's okay. This may indicate that while he enjoys it well enough, it's probably not on any of his top five lists, though he didn't elaborate on this meaning. He even went as far as to admit he consulted Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia for any and all Star Wars lore. That's kind of good. So is he expected to know the most obscure details of Star Wars lore just off the top of his head? The fact that he looked it up, that he looked up stuff, that's cool. He double checked his references. I'm willing to bet. Ryan Johnson did not consult Wikipedia when he wrote T.O.J.  If you're sitting there with the director writing whatever and they're like, I'm gonna have to check Wikipedia the main guy from the original one. Luke Skywalker, that's it. Lucas, Luke. You'd be like, oh, you have to Wikipedia that? That's not reassuring.  Blah, blah, blah, blah. Because I need to refer to it in this dialogue, but I don't know what they're called. Something like that. I'd be like, yeah, that's totally fine. I would even extend this to like, can you name all of the Jedi on the Jedi Council? Between the five of us, we could probably name some of them.  Of course there's Yaddle, yes. Kiari Mundi. Other weird-head creatures. Blue Coon. Yeah, that's one. Oh, Coon. I don't know if his first name's Poo. Sorry, I didn't mean to just call him Poo. I can give you Yoda and Mace Windu and then I'm all right. I think it's on the council, but he's not the rank of master. Doesn't have the rank of master. That's what I've heard. Kifisto, of course. Kifisto, yeah. Kifisto on the council. Why not? Why not? Chakti? Why not? Ooh. What's the guy with the really long neck? Max Rebo? Hell yeah. That guy survived the Jedi purge. He was out and getting paces. Absolutely. Yeah, and ironically, he hated being the guy who had to go out and get food, but it saved him. It was a robot chicken joke, I see. I was about to ask about if anybody knew the deep lore of there was just pretending. They know the deep lore. You know the robot chicken meme? Oh. No, I don't think so. I might have seen it years ago. He went out and got pizza. And then he worked on the Death Star in the cafeteria. Oh, I had no clue. Oh yeah, that's one I must not have seen. Or it's just been so long. I forgot. Disturbance in the force. You didn't give us any crackers.  And then he walked away.  It's just like a symbolic gesture. Why, pizza with like people order crackers with their pizza? What? Like the cheap, saltine sort of things that they just so like give you to eat.  They give you those with pizza? I don't know. Maybe it's just an American thing. I don't know. Some people just do. I've never, I don't think I've ever gotten a pizza and they're like, here are some crackers with your pizza. You wouldn't say that to them. What brand? What chain are you thinking of? I don't know. I just think like generally. They're all cold and you mad. Except for a couple. I'm not saying I agree with it. No, they're questioning whether it even happened. I think it does happen sometimes. You don't sound very confident. It can happen. But generally what you get is you get the pizza and then it has sometimes they have like peppers, a couple of green peppers maybe in there, like on the side, if you want those.  See, I do consider myself, I consider myself a fan fan of pizza. In fact, I had pizza before I came on this stream. I will go so far as to admit that I'm currently googling this and looking up to see the gifts you crack. I haven't found one yet. I just want the idea of like a takeaway taste.  I don't know, a pack of crackers.  What are you talking about? Like a box with extra cheese. No, no, you get like packets of cheese. Parmesan cheese. Yeah, like Parmesan cheese. Parmesan cheese. Yes, like dust. Like cheese dust in packets. And you sprinkle that on top of it.  What does that look like?  Generally what they do is you have the cracker and the crackers. You have the pizza box with the pizza inside of it and sort of the packets are sort of put inside the space between the top of the box and the bottom of the box where they meet. By default, or you got to pay more for that? It's been default to my experience that it comes with this thing. That's foreign to me then. It may be totally foreign. With a hot pizza as well. Maybe it's an American thing. All right, I'll drink it. God damn it, I'll say it again. The box has the pizza inside of it and any of the pizza box is such that the top of the lid fits inside the bottom part, right? So when it closes, there's a little gap between the bottom and the top sort of where they meet. And along that little space, that's where they stick the packets in. This is not an unusual thing. This is not a natural thing. This is what they do. I'm not saying that I approve of it or that I think it's a good thing. I believe everything is said. I believe that you believe it, Rex. This is what they do. Rads knows how it feels when you explain that in Australia there's a toilet and a bathroom. How he knows how it feels. Now you know how it feels. Anyway, I'm door. Oh, yeah. I hit play. So you have a guy who admits he's not a fan. Ooh, careful there. He's a fan fan. He might be a fan one. He might be level one fan. Nobody says they're not a fan fan when all they mean to say is they're not a fan. Obviously he means something else. The words are on the screen in front of this guy as he's speaking. How can he not remember what he just read? I would say that it might I don't know if I want to jump the gun yet but it's like damn man feels a little uncharitable. I would say so too. Because again, when somebody says he's not a fan, like that tells me oh, you like it. You're just not but you're not like super duper like this isn't like your favorite thing in the world. You're not like really. He doesn't know about Star Wars lore. No, it doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about Star Wars. He looked it up. If he's going to know he knows all that stuff everyone knows of course the game.  Yeah good double check good stuff. I mean like why why shun that? That's a good thing. That's the first step to becoming a true a fan fan.  Are you kidding me? That's the God said. We need more of that.  He didn't watch Wandavision. He never finished Wandavision. Michael Waldron didn't watch Wandavision. Well both of them as far as I know. It was recently found out about Michael Waldron definitely not doing it right. We've been finding out more apparently Elizabeth Olson just stopped like reading rewrites of the scripts. The actors for America's Shavas try to defend Michael Waldron by saying that his script was torn to pieces and re-shot all the time and stuff. And yet he's coming back for Secret Wars. I don't know man. If you're going to come back and keep working for Disney then you've got to nature the way that that work was created. It's not like it was a series of incredible scenes that were out of order. The individual lines were cringed too. So what are you going to tell me that they tore the words up and rearranged them like individually? I don't buy it. There's no Star Wars well enough to at least you know go on his own that he has to consult. So I'm going to be honest with you if I was show running an entire Star Wars TV show I don't think I would be able to do it from memory alone. I could probably get away with it but I wouldn't want to.  You should be willing to double check and just make sure that you've got all your stuff straight. Don't just rely on your own memory. I don't know why we're shitting on somebody for doing research. People rightly shat on Ryan Johnson for not doing research. So now again have one or the other but not both. Well it seems the complaint is the fact that you have to even look it up is bad enough which is bizarre when you don't know what he was looking up. What if he was looking up like really obscure shit like what is the name of this specific ship or like what are some like locations in like this one planet that people might not have heard of before like I don't know just seems pretty abnormal. Yeah. You can't devote all that to memory and if you did like I don't know man. The show is being made by someone who doesn't like Star Wars. No. You didn't say that. I'm sorry but you watch Andor. You don't conclude the person who made Andor doesn't like Star Wars. They kind of love it actually. And I love the way that they see Star Wars too. Hmm. That the people with him in the writer's room the people surrounding him and stuff like Star Wars either. You don't need to make that assumption. He even said probably it's like where have you got this from. It's just you put like that's where'd that come from that doesn't logically follow one guy said that he's not a fan fan which you concluded means he's not a fan and doesn't understand Star Wars therefore the people who were also writing with him probably also don't know what Star Wars is that's not like a political connection. Looking for an excuse to sit on Andor I guess I don't know. It's getting weird. I have precedent for this. Spack another producer in the Disney conglomerate Nate Moore Marvel producer said that they don't hire writers or directors or anybody who actually enjoys the source material who likes it. That's because that's Marvel and this is Lucasfilm and they are separate even though they are both under the Disney umbrella they have different leadership. This is such a stretch. They would rather hire people who don't like the source material. They made a mistake with Tony Gillroy then because he didn't say that did he? It's such do you guys they're like yeah we hired people and I was like that's just excellent guys good job. Awesome. Glad that's paying off.  It's just a product to them. I'm sure that's the case but I don't see why we're saying that about the people who made Andor. This feels like a reverse argument where he's like Andor's not good but I can't say that so instead I'll say the people who made it hate Star Wars. Okay Let's draw that from the show though. Who don't like the property. All their quotes. So they can come in and not write what the character actually should be but they take what does that with lots of characters who are like original? What should they be? What Andor characters are incorrect? What should Luthin like did they bring him in to write him how he should not be when they made him? Does Luthin need like a Mandalorian helmet and jetpack? Or is he specifically referring to Andor and Mon Mon Point? Are those the two characters he's talking about that he feels were out of character in Andor or is this I guess maybe still on the marble point? I guess we'll find out hopefully. The character strip everything away and then they fill that character in with their own. Yeah, this I don't with Andor. They filled in the character with their own agenda and biases please just just tell me what ones give me an example also who doesn't I can't think the only two I can think of Mon Mothma in the established cinematic canon excluding the stuff that Disney has done away with has about three lines of dialogue at the end of Return of the Jedi and a couple of lines of dialogue in Rogue One. That's it. There's actually not a huge amount of character to remove from Mon Mothma. She has a position. That's the role she serves in the plot. She doesn't really have a huge amount of material currently written for her that forms a part of this information. So this show is building toward the depiction of Mon Mothma as we see her in Rogue One and then as we will eventually see or it will change our perspective perhaps of her as we see her in Return of the Jedi but it's not taking anything away from the established depiction what I'm aware of. Like it shouldn't be controversial to say Mon Mothma's greatest moments in the Star Wars canon as it stands right now is in Endor. Obviously. Easily. She's one of that character from that shot. She's a really excellent character. She's definitely top tier. That's where you get what kind of forever. What? So forever. It was a leap. I got to theorize that the people surrounding Tony Gilroy and Tony Gilroy himself. No, this is not. This is just like not a logical just like just theorize it. I guess. Yeah. But theorizing implies that there's like like a something to work with. You've got nothing. You've got a producer for Marvel said something that was lame and then like you just sort of applied it to a totally different production and it's also worth keeping in mind as well right like that Endor doesn't have a lot of the are the same people sort of it's involved in terms of producing it because like John Fabro and Dave Filoni I don't believe that they were like involved like really at all. It's totally separate from them. They're writing this with their own biases and their own agendas attached. It is the thing about it is fine with that because most humans do it's it's how it infects the work right and how it makes it break apart or how it strengthens it. I need to see because there were values from George Lucas poured into Star Wars right. Certainly the prequels in the OT you can you can derive messaging in those films but I think that they're done in such a way that it's in line with the world and the characters and stuff and then you can get it really clunkly and bad and it's like preachy and stupid. Just tell me where in Endor that it all fell apart.  I have these arguments with people occasionally when I'm doing anything on sort of old school Star Wars you know when you say that Star Wars is not itself political you can read Star Wars politically but Star Wars itself is not preaching political manifestos at you and people will say what are you talking about George Lucas was clearly writing a metaphor for Vietnam and the American Empire so yes that's that's your read into it that's how you read art politically but Ronald Reagan also invoked Star Wars against the Soviet Union at the time. Communists and capitalists alike liked Star Wars and they could both read their own preferred metaphors into it. The same thing sort of holds true with Endor and it was a bit more tricky to like completely separate from the politics of the thing because it is overtly revolutionary. I think what it does quite well is it does abstract sort of the political revolutionary aspect from you know identifiable political trends in the modern day again it's not doing allegory in sort of a political party political sense so it's not really cramming biases in except insofar as you think that fascistic empire is a bad and should be opposed. That's the thing I think that the allegory to be drawn from Endor both enjoyable and interesting talk about but fundamentally I saw the whole show as just sort of a look into fascistic systems how they rise maintain power and how they fall what it takes to topple them I found that really interesting from the ideals from individual characters and what their goals are and how everything like so many different individuals within this entire system getting shaped to complete opposites or dying as a result of a very strict principle or someone like the two of the characters I would pick right like Luthon is just one of my favorites easily only basically wins his own soul in order to make a difference in stopping the empire but then you have that guy from episodes I want to say 456 who plays himself the sort of a heroic character who has a tragic backstory with his brother having died and blah blah blah and it keeps him going so but then we find out later that it's all a lie because he's relying on the sort of aesthetic of fighting against fascism when really he just wants money like what an interesting character to have in there and how true that would be to real life that some people are just trying to get their own shit sorted out you know so yeah if someone was to say like yeah but that's preachy have you like tell me how I think this you could make that argument if say you you had a system of government in the star wars universe that was previously portrayed as like relatively stable and good and fair and democratic and and or tried to flip it and and recontextualize it as like an evil empire that had to be like struggled against and an overthrown that would be pretty cheap because it's like you're trying to completely reshape the the world in order to fit the sort of whatever political manifest yeah like arguing here or something and crazy yeah exactly yeah it's like you're trying to apply this to like the modern view of america or whatever like yeah we've got overthrown all of it but like no this is an existing empire that we knew was evil anyway from the ot you're simply given expanded detail and how this revolution against them began that's fine it's not so if anything um they're making the empire a little they're adding a little bit more humanity in there with a lot of workers who are just normal people trying to get jobs done maintain laws yeah they refer to it as the banality of evil i think yeah this is like because it's like even the most evil of um empires and and everything like it's ultimately just composed of normal people who have lives you know they have to do all the same things that we have to do day to day how does that work how does it look you know how do we get to see things from their point of view it's good it's interesting stuff tony gilroy's world view disguised as a star war story what's his world just tell me yeah give me an example of what's wrong what is it because his worldview makes for good star wars whatever it is i guess i don't know this is this whole thing is based on one quote from the guy who's like oh i'm not a fan fan of star wars and it's like he's just gone off on this crazy like rabbit hole of like he was like position five words in quotes and then just some broader descriptions of what he was referring to and then it's like yeah and or it's just tony gilroy's world view masquerading as a star wars show can we please expand on that thought with some repercussions half the close from like the events of the example show us some scenes show us some footage show that'd be great here's why it's wrong yeah for any of this that'd be nice here's what he did this why this is why it's tainted by his world view and this is why it's wrong just but no it's easier for me to just sit here in front of my webcam and just give you my thoughts without anything to back them up i think describing them as thoughts at this point would be generous yeah opinions i guess what we've got here so that made me think about these fans the ones that are you know commenting maybe they never like star wars either oh don't pull that card please maybe the people like and or people who don't like stars like oh man if you were in charge it makes me think that we wouldn't have gotten and or and man that would have sucked explains why they keep saying that this is better than the empire strikes back maybe they i don't know who's i just don't it's not a sentiment i've seen very often if at all i just don't see that seems to be people saying is the best thing since empire i've seen but i i i yeah i could absolutely see why someone would say that i think you could put some gas into that and yeah this is this is like the definition of straw man and right here it's like i've perhaps seen one comment that this effect somewhere and i'm just gonna apply that that opinion to like anyone who supported this show in his head he's like people out there saying it's the best thing disney of all it's like well that's kind of reasonable best thing since the prequel it's like oh that could be considered reasonable too fuck best thing since return of the jet well the ewoks and some of the goofies best thing since empire yeah there you go now they look crazy didn't like star wars but when they see and or which apparently is nothing like star wars what do you mean apparently what do you mean apparently it's nothing like star is he saying he's drawing up from the court i think he's yeah i think he's appealing to the tonic you were saying he's not a fan fan of star wars so which therefore means it is apparently not star wars i don't i don't understand i don't get it what's the through line they can like that because it's nothing like star wars it all makes sense no it all really does not and or is written and directed by people who don't like star wars or people who don't like star wars i can you pull it's just funny right because if he was here right now i'd be like but i like empire and and or now what what happens to me i you which way western man i mean like what he's gonna pick one kind of both you know seems like he's afraid of this as well this conclusion that he's reached he's like yeah nailed it there based on a quote five no five words of a quote and then he said he looked up Wikipedia and go back to it but uh there was like three pieces of quote and two of them weren't even quote there was speculation on what the quote meant and then the other piece was like he also said this before about this it's like it's barely anything you've got like barely anything from donnie kill right it was like it was a conclusion you already drew and then you found one reference that for some reason you thought like that's the thing um had a way with it and i'm not trying to be mean but it's like i guess it it's not as fun if you just said i don't like and or if you just if you just say that it's like well i wanted to i wanted to mean more than that i wanted to go further than that i mean there's a part of me that wonders does he mean he hasn't seen it with the whole apparently line um because if he hasn't even right because if he hasn't seen it and he's making these very strong statements about it then you'd be a fucking fool to do that well i mean i because references is like you need you need examples of what you're talking about in the show that you can point to because like being really vague is not helpful especially if you're talking to people who like it like what specifically would you be referring to in terms of it being like you had the characters you stripped them bare of who they were and then you inserted the traits that you wanted to fit your like like whatever your perspective on the world is or your agenda as a writer like what do you have as a point of reference to support that or are you just going to throw it out there because again it's just perplexing to somebody who likes it which presumably is somebody you're trying to appeal to right like people who like it because people who don't like it they already agree with you anyway right i think he must know this isn't said dear he basically just said like you already like it because you're not a fan of star wars like right which again is really that's really lame listen if you want to like and or that's fine thank you but you're not a star wars fan not taking that away from anybody please enjoy the show enjoy and or where's that big old butt come on give us that butt it was a show so but do it but call yourselves and or oh he said he said but so fast oh yeah he was a call it's like he said that was the fastest but call i've ever heard you know do you think he was thinking about that saying like nothing means anything before the win but see he was like gotta get out real quick yeah like you just thinking about you don't want that butt to be really strong you gotta be like you gotta you gotta soften it dampen it up a little bit but call yourselves the and or fans because apparently you're not star wars fans you like and or you're not a star wars fan that are pretty funny sort of sense it's isn't it when you trip away a lot of it if you like and or that's okay but don't call yourself a star wars fan being a star wars fan if you like and or you can't like all of it though one of my what am i what does that make me well what what does he say to somebody who it's just like yeah i like Dan or he's like really and then just did like sort of a star wars trivia quiz and they got 100 right well you know calling yourself an and or fan you must have gotten all of that from and or i guess somehow like how do you how does he square away somebody who like earnestly passionately likes um basically everything from star wars including and or like they're not even gone mad even the kind of person who likes to sequel somehow but they also like and or you know i think he's um he's using the word apparently a lot i think to avoid it sounding like it's his perspective he's basically saying like this is just the result of the tony gilroy quote oh so some nice weasel words then well i'd be curious to ask him is like do you believe i am not a star wars fan if i consider myself a fan of and or no i'm just saying apparently i'm just using purely deductive logic here i it's not up to me really i just look at the facts and i make my assessment and i mean the cards fall where they may it's just it's uh it's a problem when he gets a bit trigger happy with apparently because when he's describing like whether or not it's good or not he's like well apparently it's not a very good show you're just like the kid well apparently it's not a very good show and apparently uh you can't like them both as far as i know i just think it'd be really funny if he hadn't even seen a single frame of it and he's just purely speculating on all of this stuff this is a man you know what i like it this man this man's a gambler all right this man likes to take risks all right this he's a risk taker this man right here he's willing to he's willing to just to take that risk it's probably you know he throws caution to the wind he something gets into his head and he goes for it he doesn't pittle around with details and facts and information that he doesn't go to wukipedia he's this this ain't a wukipedia watcher looker this man is balls to the wall high octane peddle to the metal opinion assertion having this is this is a proper youtuber right here this is the 21st century we don't have the time to fuck around well cathleen kennedy i don't think i just do oh that's a great quote i think yeah it's also every time you pause it it looks like his face is realizing that his mouth is speaking bullshit he always looks slightly surprised and perplexed and confused by what he's just said every time he just free word like you didn't even know what the point of this video was when he started the camera seems to be pissing him off that's my impression though what one thing i'll say it's a very it's a good camera he has a good camera and a good mic which is far more than i could say about a lot of people who sit yeah you know what i'm going to say thank you to the guy who made this video for that i appreciate that thank you what people don't know past that you've managed to do with your 781 sub channel what movie bob could not do in thousands of subs and years of patreon you're gonna say thousands of years thousands of years probably yeah move i can believe that movie bob is some primordial force like some warhammer chaos he's like the it clown he's he's just the negative force of the universe be a huge andor friend be the biggest andor fan you can be okay all right all right i'm gonna enjoy star wars all right great oh we do that too i'm am i asking mark yes what is what does he think star wars is i want to know what his starting premise is like normally pro forma argument you begin with let's say my my thesis is people who like and or don't like star wars you begin by saying this is what star wars is to my conception this is how i believe it is constituted this is what makes it up this is what and or falls short of this is why therefore the people who like and or cannot be said to be star wars fans i want to know what he thinks star wars is supposed to be to begin with before he goes around saying that people who like and or are not star wars fans i mean the problem is doing all that stuff that you're talking about platoon that would require like research and scripting and time and effort and editing and it's like why do you all that when you can just sit in front of your webcam for five minutes and just yeah as we know he would defeat himself if he did the research to make that argument by his own argument he would not be a fan so he can't do it you can see how this video came to be right he saw that quote and was like ah he's not even a fan of star wars so no wonder people who like and or like think it's so good when star wars fans don't because and or is not even star wars maybe i was hearing more just a curiosity like what's his like uh is upload rate you know is uh is he putting out like several videos a day or is it pretty uh i don't know i don't know i know that the seven minute three second video took him seven minutes and three seconds to make because i'm just well there was a tiny bit of editing there where rags were he putting that cool yeah that must be oh yeah that's true that and also that wasn't even a screenshot he manually typed that all in yeah that was that is his create that is his artistic format he did and he highlighted the relevant sections that's true that's uh the man cares this is a no fade transitions or anything no no little uh no little about three videos for a week in my style all right you know that's you know that's a pretty you know decent that's a good upload schedule you know three weeks and a couple uh couple uh you know one every couple days you know on the seventh day he rests and but hey let the uh let other people comment let the real star wars star wars fans comment and let me know what let real star wars fans comment okay so if you disagree with me don't comment on my yeah you agree with me what's interesting is that there is a um there's a comment here that he is loved that says star wars ended after return of the jedi anything made afterwards constitutes leaching off of the original six movies careful with that wait what yeah you caught it you caught it let's check our let's check our thinking on this one generally wait i don't know what that means i don't know what that means but wait maybe maybe there was three other movies that were made before the lucus we just don't know the lucus film vaults only real star wars fans know about those other three movies only the ot is good all six of them first fans think i'm off the mark or you guys are uh are you with them are you with them in the comments are you with them those traitors do we learn nothing from and or gosh subscribers you guys are awesome i tell you that every time because i mean it thank you thank you thank you i'm not a subscriber but i'm you know i'll see you guys in the next video so loud i love it all right so it's safe to say there wasn't a huge amount of arguments in that one nope but he made a follow-up one oh god now now he's going to give us this is the real meat of the sandwich more this one's called my case against and or why it's not true star wars nice all of you are like oh he's not going to give arguments he's like no he will and you are going to be read in the face when you realize that maybe you'll be concluding oh maybe and or isn't star wars my body is ready my pizza crackers are prepared as you can tell time has passed because his beard has grown out a little there and he has he's got a different shirt on oh his tortoise has gone no it disappeared his tortoise it went to another time in place the tortoise is traveled through space and the universe and now it's having an adventure oh where did it go i would say it is time for us to understand the argument now because he's that was that seven minutes was him presenting the sort of the title of the essay so to speak this is the essay okay this is the definitive ooh why and or isn't star wars video let's get into it that's uh all right oh no he changed it what happened to the boy he's a change man molly he's a old opening there so lures it it's better because it's quieter yeah just quicker i think hey everybody see hello hi steve um since the last video i made about asoka i brought up and or again okay and i've made some other and or videos yeah we've seen one of them and i've got a lot of people bad saying that and or is star wars the matter of fact they're saying and or is the best thing since um the empire strikes back so what i think is happening with and or which is inevitably just that's what that was always going to happen is the people who didn't watch it stop talking about it and stop raising criticism of it because they're less and less familiar with it you know what i mean it's like sequels we'll remember why they're so shit but people who don't like and or i'll speak to them who kind of didn't watch it aren't going to bother like in the average conversation to be like no and or shit they're gonna be like yeah and or but the people who like and or they will raise it every time it's mentioned and or is really good and or is really great and so if you casually in the middle of a video like oh that mandalorian season three was bad um yeah which you know that means we've gotten duds all around with that and or and then someone comes to me like whoa whoa whoa and or and or wasn't it you know and so eventually if you're someone who thinks and or is shit you will get a lot of pushback just randomly and you just be like what is going on why people being so nice about and or and it's like well maybe check it out i mean i mean drinker have been trying to push it on as and gary for forever of my basic one day no break one day i say nay nay oh my nay nay i i say and or make and and rogue one mm-hmm are not true star wars okay now i have two points that i think make my case and we'll prove beyond a shadow i was hoping we get more than i thought we were gonna get more than two but that's all right the amount of points we have is how good the points are guys stop poisoning the well this is disgusting behavior maybe within the point there will be like five supporting points you know what i mean like first point they can have points they're like because one only true star wars fans would would understand what this is and it's not star wars and two and three hours so there i mean exactly i nailed it following basic logical structure and argumentation it is while not a sound argument a valid one so that is something we are progressing towards a good video without my piece that and or is not true star wars just just to refresh my memory in the last video was the claim that and or was not true star wars or the and or wasn't star wars full star it wasn't true star wars is i think it was almost if not the direct the exact implication so so the last one was cool why isn't real star wars this was right so true star wars these are different he's evolving is is thinking you see there might be a subtle difference that i'm not keen on but i'm sure he's gonna explain it i'm sure why would you make a 17 minute video that doesn't explain it for the and or fans that are watching this hello hello i'm not trying to stir up trouble i'm not trying to make some uh clicks baby you got trouble here buddy call me dr trouble i got a prescription for some arguments i'll be honest if someone said could i convince you that and or is not true star wars i'd be like mmm i'll give a shot i'll see if you can maybe i doubt it no it's not been unknown right for us to do these e-faps and the the guy who's getting the video made about him will hear about it and will come on i i would genuinely be interested to have this guy on just show absolutely i would just fully recommend and or assuming he doesn't see it maybe he has i mean he's made this video surely he has that would be like the that would be the that would be the kicker here so it is big no way apparently he's in the comments is he oh nice hello hey he's not great video this video's had an excellent start yeah he said he's got two points yeah i'm excited mauler you and i both know that if every video we covered had two good points it would already raise to like top 10 it would be in top 10 territory it would be in top 10 territory unironically yes it would get clicks and likes and and watches and stuff i'm not doing that okay i'm simply trying to express why i don't see and or and rogue one as star wars all right it's a bit of a rollback well i don't see that people are liking on fans of star wars let's not forget that one yeah that was another thing what was said that's true other than it being by disney everything disney puts out so far has just been garbage so i'm endorsed but i guess that's what we're here to hey listen if you say in mandor season one and two are also garbage i'm with this guy okay finally setting that aside i'm making the case as to why and or and rogue one are not star wars oh and rogue one i i'm sorry i'm a little bit frustrated there because it sounded before was much more can we what did he just say like 15 seconds ago wasn't it like i'm just saying like in my opinion you know it's just like my perspective and now we've just sort of we're like all already back to like a more definitive kind of a claim yeah man he's a bold person i mean for you to afford a boost yeah clumsy language use i suppose but yeah yeah we're going to get comments and i love to hear your guys comments about this oh good love a good debate we came to the right i'm gonna say i've got a feeling you're gonna get a lot more comments after the c5 episode hey constructive comments everyone okay constructive comments he's a nice yes we learned that in the last episode of eve was it the last one the constructive criticism thing the criticism guy all criticism should not be negative yeah he's he said no negative except what it's really shit movies hitler test but you know so after you watch this video please feel free to leave comments i will try to respond to as many as possible it's a spirit i'd appreciate it if we can keep them all on come on get to the two point we got it we're getting there good debate stop teasing us good point you can't rush good points i feel the way i feel and you can tell me the way you feel sweet in the last video didn't say that he wanted real star wars fans to comment because he was tired of so did he not receive enough of those um i don't know the well he said that the reason he's making this one is because on his asoka video i think people were annoyed at him saying that and all was not real stars let's go point number one yes now i've made this point in the last video that i know no no no okay made i'll put a is the tody gill right quote box thing up there to uh check that video out oh no apparently you're from video it's regarding acolyte okay star wars i think he's probably right about that as well the acolyte looks like it'll be shit but yeah trilogy star wars is a timeless story from the moment it came out in theaters till this very second you can watch any of those episodes four five or six and oh pull prequel fans left out in the cult fans they resonate with everyone i mean i don't i don't want to nitpick but sure most people sure yeah yeah everyone loves these stories george lucas took the best i could see wait i can see where he's going to go with this one as well it's kind of like if you're gonna say the ot but i didn't love us so i didn't love and or it's that proves that it's not timeless classic it can't be timeless mythology and religion and storytelling and he put it all together and he distilled it down into dare i say the perfect three stories okay so i like the ot a lot but all three of them perfect i don't know about that the thing is as well like if his argument is just going to be like well and or doesn't cover the same breadth of um you know intellectual universal themes that the ot covered like you can make that argument but then it's not designed to do that it's it's exploring a specific facet of the star wars universe it's not trying to be this this grand epic that encompasses everything you know it's seen from the eyes of like a limited group of characters doing a very specific task like you're you're very much made to feel like these are small pieces of a much larger puzzle and i'm like i'm wondering if that's where he's gone but i'm almost holding off in terms of like i'm tempted to see what like what he's going to say about and or being different and why that's bad the thing about it is he's going to try and make the argument that it's like really clunky contemporary political allegory shoved into the tv show if he creates a sort of way to categorize that excludes basically all of disney stuff but includes the ot i think that'll mostly be fine with a lot of people listening but it's the prequels there going to be a catching point there because he's not including them i'm assuming when a lot of people who don't like disney stuff love the prequels i don't think it's going to be a what i would call an intuitive like sort of agreeable argument you gotta be careful you gotta side step around them even uh let's even we have to be careful what we mean to the prequels is there a quite beloved there's there's there's nothing today that didn't happen then there's nothing then it doesn't happen today you can watch this in a hundred years i mean i guess he means like messages or oh right like the fundamental appeal of a uh like growing up yeah yeah yeah yeah the star wars appeals the ot appeals is a story more fundamentally than any other star wars story probably i don't want to say definitively but probably and it still will be a great story unfortunately we are now getting stories that people want to make for a modern audience um and when you make it for an audience like that you now take a modern or uh i mean i that's why i didn't pause it but like go on you now take away the timeless aspect it is no longer timeless it is now stuck in a box this is an argument i could see i'm gonna need references though i need to know why yeah the thing is like his his basic premise of like how disney have handled star wars isn't wrong there but i think he's to give a great example these shows which is already kind of like we're talking and or so let's not talk about these shows let's talk about and or specifically because like i don't want them all lumped together when we're having this conversation like specifically and or um so we need references to and or but yeah to take what he just said and apply it somewhere i think it actually works would be someone like ryan johnson he can't resist having very up-to-date political social discussions in his films and they age it like horrifyingly uh glass onion especially is going to be a film if you watch it in 10 years you'll be like wow this is a time capsule this is fucking look at all these references to shit that i completely forgot about um you get that with like particular music or trends i saw a thread discussing it in mcu projects like the amount of times they do do you remember um black panther where they did the what are those meme and people i don't even know if people know that's that meme i don't know was that a vine meme was that even is that newer than that i don't even i'm pretty sure that name was already old when the film like did it as well yeah i feel like it was pretty well it would be yeah so you think how long it takes to get films made yeah memes date in like 15 minutes yeah and so if you appeal more to fundamental values and experiences you age really well so i'm on board but i mean i would i know which i would put and or and it wouldn't be the ages badly camp does and or appeal to like fundamental sort of aspects of human nature absolutely temporary references you know yeah it's you know a plucky band of rebels joining together to rise up against the evil empire and try to overthrow them like it's pretty universal stuff yeah i mean i will say and or's appeal probably is more intellectual whereas the ot is more sort of intuitive eternal truth so the ot focuses a huge amount on the importance of family loyalty trust and the inevitable triumph of goodness over evil basically these are sort of like pre-to-natural moral values and it's incredibly universal for that reason it doesn't really try to do too much to layer on top of that you know extensive amounts of world building save like how the empire works and things like that whereas and or is more concerned with the intellectual propositions of well empires rise and empires fall how are these things constituted in the real world and it's you know it still touches on very timeless themes the prison sequence is still the one that stands out to me because that's almost it's one of the perfect encapsulations of sort of jeremy bentham and the um the panopticon sort of penal philosophy um that you can probably find on the screen and you know it actually invokes fuko's response to bentham as well when andal is basically shouting no one's listening that's fuko is saying that you know no one in the panopticon is a participant in conversation that way everyone is heard um that that's still a universal theme but it's on a more maybe sort of cerebral level than the ot is which might make it seem a bit less approachable universal but i would still argue that it is a very universal issue i think part of his gripe seems to stem from like and or isn't a space opera in the same way that the star wars ot was it's more of like a political espionage thriller set against the star wars framework that's the difference and like kind of going back to what you say it doesn't deliver in the big grandiose emotional moments of you know family tragedies and betrayals and and uh epic adventures and stuff it's not that same style uh and it's almost like you can't reconcile the idea that you can do a thriller a kind of political action thriller set in the star wars universe and still have it be part of star wars it will work if it's well written but it's like you can't compute that idea and i would even say it um it's got a place to fit in it's like when we join luke in the star wars universe the rebel alliance is going strong it's there it's been doing different it's like we've come into it uh you know second act almost um meanwhile like andor is trying to argue like this is how it started this is all the individual players that push the pieces that made eventually lead into actual wars like huge wars and that that place has been waiting to be you know utilized and i'm really glad they did it you're bringing in modern day politics example political agendas what identity politics well there really wasn't an andor i don't think there was any identity politics an andor any other thing that might be going on in society today and you're trying to make that your story excuse me that's not going to work 100 years from now people aren't going to they're going to look back on this and go wow those guys were dumb why nor did they even put that in there what are you i would cause it to you like as long as they had some knowledge of star wars like if they'd seen the ot they could probably watch andor and get a pretty good insight into into how they all started we keep referring to this nebulous thing that happens in and i don't know what it is what is it can you give me a character give me a scene give me a message or one example just tell me what it is nobody's going to care about a political agenda well this this is a great argument as well because like you're appealing to 100 years from now so like there's no way to even just prove what you're even claiming like well we'll just give it a sec we'll wait and see if it's still viable in 100 years we can test this argument who's going to care about identity politics no one's going to care about what it you know maybe i mean this is the thing i don't know it's not like the probably stories you can tell that relate to identity well you know what actually though muller explain yourself glass onion will age badly how can you verify that when that's in the future shit well um i'm going to go buy everything else that came before it the references things of its time in a very superficial and substanceless way aging horribly bad because we look back at it watch them go oh i forgot that was in there yeah um i expect that to be the future for glass onion but you're right i can only do a prediction i can't know it'll happen but i think that film's already cringe the idea that it'll be cringe in future the among us reference that's true among us is in the did that reference yeah but that's time that's a timeless that's time yeah among us is timeless just to be clear um queer coding characters who i mean i it's okay so for anyone who doesn't know queer coded means that they're not overtly but they definitely seem as though they would be the thing and that will date the story that will date the story um what what i i'm lost 100 years from now this is very confused about yeah who the queer characters in they don't reproduce it's pretty obvious mon mothma lesbian sister no yeah yeah oh yeah and then uh what was the name of the she was also with the uh with the the rebel group uh i can't remember her name oh yeah i know what you mean is that she was like undercover with uh with the empire when they had to do the raid on the the base uh no she wasn't undercover with the empire um she was with the group it was the uh oh yeah no she was in the base during the mission that's right yeah it was those characters because i had a relationship lesbians isn't exactly like some kind of newfangled you know i don't even understand it's like uh that's pretty political it's like what people who love each other they bear there's barely any attention given to the fact that they're but why not who cares mm-hmm like it's not it's not done in some like clunky as fuck where it's just two girls who like each other a hell of a lot who are trying to do really important and high stakes missions one of them is more about the mission the other one is clearly interested in maybe starting a life mm-hmm this is all modern-day jargon that should not be in a timeless story uh it's um it's always it's interesting to sort of see as well the similarities in people who have what i'm presuming are this guy's political persuasion and people on what he would conceive of is the opposite political persuasion and how they basically say exactly the same thing as each other without realizing that they are agreeing with the enemy or they come at it from a very different perspective but they both read these weird little messages in so i was looking up like just as he was speaking um to try and find that this evidence of yeah queer coded characters which he says are in there but can't really provide the evidence buzzfeeds countertake is that andor's lack of queerness undermines its entire message so like somewhere in between those two positions is probably the truth which is that the yeah there's a couple of characters in there you can read as being romantically attached that's kind of it and it doesn't date the production because you know gay people are as old as time well that yeah i mean uh this is what's awkward about it's like lesbian is not a new thing that's that's quite old i bring you more examples okay uh okay well more he said more he's giving us more and find that there was even one and there there are several articles from bounding in the comics which i will link down below okay here is one of them yeah all right andor actress fiona shore made it abundantly clear that the upcoming star wars series will be a political commentary on donald trump rather than his star wars adventure that's the thing is that's a fucking actress she didn't rate it well and this is cringe right for the record this is cringe but if you watch and or where is this well yeah like if you never heard anybody make this comparison at all would you watch him you're like ah i see this is a to give them because i don't give a fuck what the actors have to say about this actors are dumb as fuck for the most part and they say whatever they think will make them more popular when i i'd want to argue as well like uh they do this with good movies all the time they'll say like uh they'll they'll go back to like classics and be like did you know that was all actually about this brand new thing that i want it to be about you're like oh yeah i don't agree they're like oh okay well fuck you it is even if creators say it you're like no that's fine you have that's i think it was the actress who played dedra mirror the the imperial security bureau officer did a quote as well which was roundly sort of picked up on before the show uh aired when she was saying it was something along the lines of you know this character is is a strong woman who is in many ways more competent than the men and everyone's immediate response was oh god girl boss character and then she appears on screen and she's a Nazi and then so it's not doesn't really matter does it she's very competent she's also evil and there are competent female villains that's a good thing she does fuck up here and there but uh she the right things have in the right ways and she's desperately trying to climb that empire ladder be interesting to see that's that's who you're talking about right the blonde lady yeah that's the one remember here in the last episode getting terrified by the trembling armies of the resistance it's like oh lots of lots of interesting things behind every behind every powerful gerbils is a strong arrian woman so i guess this individual says that the uh current and or show is a reflection by the the animated stuff and the sparkles behind the text is not it don't don't do that i don't think it's fantastic it adds flavor rags it definitely adds flavor it's like adding crackers to a pizza it's like adding crackers to pizza yeah you know what's great though is like what he's reading out is completely different than what he's putting on the screen and or actress fiona shaw made it abundantly clear that the upcoming star where series will be a political commentary yeah so like now listen to what he says okay on the trumpian world and how tony gillray wrote sure i feel like i had one to tilt by the way i despise this form of video making where you say things that are different than what's on screen is drink i just pointed out it fucking kills me because i'm like do you want me to read it and then let you talk or listen to you or like what what's more important if assuming i only watch your video once which by the way is more than most people on earth will do uh which uh which thought shall i attach my attention to shaw who plays a character named marva spoke with empire about the upcoming series telling them tony gillray has written a great surrelicious take on the trumpian world i'm sorry i completely fucked up i was just making or spreading scandalous claims about someone with the intention of damaging their reputation so this is just the result of people on earth being you know they're so subsumed by the the current culturally things that whatever they're currently in they'll try and argue it's about that to get people like who or other people being like so it seems like yeah despite the despite the trump references it seems to be a really good show because i'm starting it's unlocking memories for me because i think that we heard about this too before we'd seen and or is like like like great yellow flags are being raised and it's more so because it'll mean that they'll have really just they'll have common tree that is not subtle at all and cringe and you know there's a lot of things are doing just like yeah great but then you watch it and you're like oh wait i didn't see where was this and if they were like couldn't you tell that part of gas he's trump i'd be like what yeah yeah i really didn't see it i know i know most of you guys are not familiar with star trek but you know what the federation is in star trek it's the very nice utopian like um governing body for all of starfleet they're the guys who go out to explore the universe great stuff they've always been portrayed in a positive light throughout star trek history and when Picard when Picard came along this this is an example of bad writing where they suddenly had to deal with a refugee crisis and they turned into a bunch of xenophobic fascists who didn't want to have to deal with it they were extremely suspicious of anyone who was outside of their borders that was a clumsy shitty allegory for you know current day refugee problems at the southern border in america but that's not what you're dealing with in andor it's not awkward like that and it doesn't intrude upon the story the story feels natural and developed as it should based on the star wars lore that we have and where the universe is at at that point in time i'm inclined to agree when you take something that currently exists in the storyline add to it but completely change it in order to match something that you want to talk about feels disrespectful well and just shit but you know uh there was there was no changes to make the empire a bad guy in andor that was uh that's already a thing a skirless story about trump now so you have any like in like show references not what people said in the interview i want i want to know references in the show what would he do if uh mark hamill said the ot is really about trump and then someone says in response trump wasn't even fucking what he mean he's like no it is in retrospect about trump what would you do with that to star wars ot become shit or do you just or do you disagree slash disregard the take yeah you just be like that's retarded this is telling us that they're taking modern day politics and they're using the modern day politics as the bad guys it's not it's it's telling you that the actress is doing exactly what you're doing which is to read your own uh political opinions or political opponents opinions into the show that you're watching it's really easy to do precisely because and or doesn't actually preach political perspectives at you i could for example say well the imperial security bureau represents the risks of untrammeled intelligence gathering on behalf of a private state nexus and mon mothma who is literally a republican is a brave right wing campaigner against the state's accumulation of your private personal data i could make that allegory oh that's true that if i wanted to but and or isn't actually telling me that that's what it's doing that it's allowing me to say well you know if i want to apply my own imagination this is the lesson i can derive from the show it's not the show telling me what the lesson i'm supposed to take from it is i think part of guys isn't trump he's hitler and the and or is Churchill hmm if you think about it it kind of makes sense all of it uh the place he came from that's britain um friends there they're all uh they're all uh european countries still represent that's really pretty neat the empire trump trump and conservatives conservatives in these people's eyes are the empire that was never we talked about the show please i thought that's what he meant what he was going to give us points not like you know like general political related it's just talking about weird like like people talking like in interviews about shit and like sort of vague political like can we talk about the show why is the show bad tell me why the show is bad well it sounded like his position isn't that it's bad it's just that it's it's filled with modern what politics do they talk about yeah because an actress in an interview said something yeah it has to take it's a six minute video yeah okay there was no one government or or one entity that was taking the place for the empire the empire is just evil evil i think evil is not a new concept we've had evil ever since you know yeah so andor is a timeless story right is it not a bit of an upgrade to have them be a little more complicated than evil yeah because generally it's not like oh they're just just black and white evil and good it's that simple people are just evil they're just devils and demonic and it's as simple as that living control by satan control by satan this is the emperor and i i guess he's he's he's pretty evil but you know but like generally there's all of the little cogs of the machine along the way are not just evil i just love that there's gonna be people at every level who are just doing their job day after day like either because they're trying to make money or they're they're obliged to do it they've been crested to service there's all kinds of things you know the angle of people like isn't Cyril when we first meet him he's like interested in upholding law he's like it should be yeah that that's important yeah it has nothing to do with rebellion and empire it's just someone killed these two guys and i need to figure out who the hell did it i can't let them escape justice i can't imagine it's there's nothing political about it really i can't imagine being presented with that and then the reaction being i prefer it when the empire just evil man i don't like this whole like oh he's he's kind of a person with you know strong values that believes in the rule of law fuck that making evil him horns yeah like dark people decided to have a fight we've had evil so none of this is new and then we have another article from bounding into comics okay where uh what are your thoughts tonigil Roy himself says that he said he believes the man mothma character uh is kind of like a Nancy Pelosi what does he mean by that oh her daughter and an arranged marriage to obtain funds for a rebellion again okay like that could mean a million things i don't see it myself if that's his inspiration okay i guess even if even if it was like like is what like again can we just have references like specifically to the show itself and what happens in the show rather than what somebody said in an interview and well any if you're gonna bring it please tell me what he means by it this can't be as simple as he's going to be more to it than that line right he mentions Nancy Pelosi therefore i would be i would be willing to put money on him referring to Nancy Pelosi as you know incredibly shrewd almost to the point of amoral political operator someone who is incredibly good at what they do but what they do is kind of complex and morally nuanced and occasionally devious in servers of a higher cause um that's that would be my sort of read into the analogy of like the Nancy Pelosi as my mothma character Nancy Pelosi was a very shrewd political operator as my mothma is um has to you know orchestrate political maneuverings in the senate as my mothma does so she's quite a useful character archetype i suppose you can take inspiration from that that's not to say that he thinks Nancy Pelosi is you know god's daughter or that you know she's this moral uh paragon of virtue when you're not crazy if the quote continues uh Nancy Pelosi is the greatest person of all time i love her to pieces and that's why i made my mothma the best person ever and said that that's who that is wouldn't make and or a bad show it would make Gilroy cringe that's all that means again why are you bringing you want the four do you want the four quote of that Nancy Pelosi thing um do it anyone who follows the canon she's sort of a Nancy Pelosi character isn't she she's kind of trying to do good or whatever she's trying to do and she's losing i mean i don't know she's a powerful presence in the senate but she's facing defeat after defeat after defeat as the empire is taking over here she's always presented as very proper and sober and perfectly put together all the time in canon and it just seemed like that was such a perfect opportunity to say well what's really going on behind here it was really it was very exciting to take a sort of still portrait of someone and throw it away and build a real life behind it well the only thing that's going to be disagreeable for people in there is whether or not you believe Nancy Pelosi is trying to do good but that's you know for everyone to fight over i think the more interesting part of what that quote is is just the way a person is presented at the higher echelons of politics and what's going on in their life beneath it yeah what the real life is going on yeah behind the scenes when the cameras are not cool figures from today and trying to connect them to a character that has absolutely nothing to do with any of this i mean you can easily connect any political leaders to other political leaders there's going to be something there but like again tell me how this made and or shit references in the show again like can you can you elaborate on how this like damaged the story like the integrity of the story the only reason you do this is so you can connect them to modern day politics no try to get no no if you're making a science if you're making us connect them to modern politics it's to connect them to modern politics so it's a nice circular kind of a one of logic i mean the like it's sort of thing you can draft but you know but how effective is it if nobody knows anything about modern politics after watching and or do you understand what i'm saying like if they would if you have a you know fucking 15 year old who knows nothing about us politics in any way watches and or in what way does it push them to any particular place don't be authoritarian yeah do you know what i mean like it's like come on dude what i mean tonic i'm not even like left or right at that point it's just you know it's not don't be authoritarian pretty much Tony Gilroy a consulting producer on House of Cards and um Frank Underwood is of course a Democrat and Frank Underwood doesn't exactly come out of that show particularly well no he didn't get to what extent can you really read uh um Tony Gilroy's political opinions into the fact that well here he's being blamed for associating a prominent Democrat with a hero figure in Star Wars in House of Cards is he to bleep to be blamed for associating a a nasty nefarious evil fictional Democrat with villainy i mean like he's he's what he's doing is he's taking inspiration and applying it to his art form as opposed to propagandizing which seems to be the charge level against him buddy on the left to come over and watch the show they want this show to be one big right-leaning bash based on two quotes and they they can nothing from the show nothing from the show actually present in the show oh yeah this is one of one of your two just definitive pieces of like proof that this show was not Star Wars say well that bingo car is probably empty huh all for two yeah how how's your checklist going it's going it's going well enough however you choose to arrange the words yeah that's good that's good that's good what do you get if you win um i think a vague sense of of crushing disappointment that critics about or so predictable a little bit that reminds me of trump oh that reminds me of all those right wingers yeah what the you know the show you need a shit on for that it's the boys not and or oh tell us shows that no one fucking talks about anymore shows that a hyper cringe and overflated just because the edgy whoa did anyone see the boys season three drinker do you see that yet yeah i got through pretty much all of it i think i had like one or two episodes left or something did you feel anything no i mean i laughed a couple of times i guess there you go yeah they're evil those people are horrible yes we are we are the rebels we are the rebels so is it safe to assume he hasn't actually seen nandal then i don't i don't you see here's the thing like surely he has but it doesn't sound like he has it doesn't sound like he has because you feel like if he had he would just be able to like it wouldn't even be a matter of deliberately doing it he would just be drawing references to the show yeah like automatically he'd be like like that stupid thing with the guy who did the thing like he'd be saying that you'd be appealing specifically to like moments that happen in the show or characters and their motivations you wouldn't be just strictly referring to like meta information none of this should be in a story like star wars none of what references to modern politics none of what people in interviews saying that you like without any references to the actual substance of the story if well the prequels doesn't work because he didn't seem to consider them stars but if someone if it was a quote from whoever that said palpatine in the prequels is supposed to be a reflection of bush how does this go away like what george lucas has said exactly there is a lot of things that lucas said about it yeah yeah george lucas made specific like references to real world events and how they like influence the way that that story took shape so like what about that as well platoon was mentioned earlier right vietnam was an inspiration is that okay or is it not are we allowed to do that or is that you know he took heavy inspiration as well from gibbons decline and fall of the roman empire and the prequels are sort of an attempt to take you know contemporary concerns and map them on to the gradual decline of the roman republic and then present that in a brand new sort of totally separate fictional realm in star wars but it's still taking inspiration from past and present the trick to making it non allegorical though is that you try and identify in say modern political conditions what the timeless causes of those things happen to be like this is not the first time empires have risen or fallen you look at the mechanisms that underpin that what does it say about us sort of universally throughout our entire history as a species and a social species of that you take the universal aspects of that and you simply use the modern political thing as kind of momentary inspiration to inform the structure of your story that doesn't make it allegorical that just makes it inspired or innovative depending on how you choose to interpret it i'm now just thinking about what what about what about like a historical drama like a drama that is based on historical events is that data it's a data that's like based in the medieval era or like the viking era you know or you know ancient uh roam or grease pretty clear that this character was based off of charles the 16th which is not much means it's not a very timeless story because it's inspired by i mean it feels like it's got to be more complicated than that completely out of place out of place 100 percent so no modern audience garbage in a timeless story that is point one that is why are we working forwards or backwards when we talk about what makes the story timeless i don't know what this guy i mean i i will say i'm unconvinced by your arguments that this because i have a feeling if one of two that it is not star wars based on the things that you've said i bet if we went back to some of them they're shakespeare plays that there might be a lot of references to modern politics that we just don't quite think of or are aware of today vents going on characters who might be in charge praising of certain monarchs things of that nature i'm pretty sure that those stories have a are going to have a decent amount of references to and the fifth is actually crap because it's very firmly dated around the time period of Henry the fifth yeah so i just mentioned tetris it's like yeah that's there's plenty in there for the era it takes place in the ussr and stuff like that and arguably a lot of messaging about what is right and what is wrong when it comes to the clashing of cultures and that one that's okay because we all agree on it when it comes to like the setting it was something that platoon was talking about before like if you were to like what i would say at the core of and or in terms of the characters is you've got a bunch of different people who we have like you know a clearly defined like traits or goals that they have and it's like how do people react when placed in like a really stressful situation and then you get to see the different ways that people maneuver through that like that's much more of an appeal to like individuals right and like character motivations or like the things that drive people and like to me that that strikes me as like universal in the sense that you're exploring like the human experience like regardless of whatever the backdrop is or like whatever political sort of um uh influences that you'd want to attach to it like what like what is the story of like um i i'm just like what is this story if you're looking at the story of like luthan um and then of course you know like leading up to his big speech essentially about the nature of like how he sacrifices himself as a being like down to his very core uh in pursuit of the goal that he wants like how would this guy look at that and go ha see yeah that's like that's not a timeless story because um one of the actresses in the show said that it was about trump i mean ignore the cringe comments about what it is pay attention to what it is cut out the the because we've said this before but like it's it's rare to get commentary from actors that really improves the work and it happened once recently so i was looking at an interview people were sharing of um patty constantine talking about for series that he he really worked with what he learned when his mom was experiencing something similar to what for series goes through and he drew from that and that it's incredible like it's all about how much he wants to do for his family it's going to keep him going and that you know he would have that's how much it matters to him and that's what he's trying to channel and i think matt smith is there just being like yeah you know these characters have a lot and you're sitting there like ah like i don't need to if any of them had said like you know the series is actually commentary on modern trump is almost like it's appealing to those fundamentals uh but it's rare you get a lot of people who like the that that thing that was in like loads of my tfa videos right the the the character and actions from good ol gwendoline christie trying to talk about the character of phasma but there is no character so she can't and you feel bad for her she tried she tried her best yeah the other half of what she had to say was she's the first female villain and it was like oh shut the fuck up bro and or is not star first female villain was point two all right what's the point number two i believe is the biggest point let's do it all right break star wars favorite points into its most basic elements jar jar jar jar jar you have to eat all this a timeless story of good versus that's point one you already said this maybe he's gonna say something else where he's going with it you have the hero's journey of luke skywalker you have a great redemption story in han solo in him coming around you have all these other great things going on but the one thing okay all right one thing that separates star wars from from every other the animals yeah sci-fi show you could still be jaja i don't know we're still in could be jar jar jar jar jar i've not seen everything anything besides star wars oh here we go ding ding ding ding ding ding ding just go to your bingo sheet there yeah all right well yep okay cool so no real life you know what's funny is that the force as named of course doesn't turn up in like star trek or whatever but what telekinesis is like it's in a lot of stuff then you'd be like well no not not telekinesis is drawn from like the universe as though we're parts of it and that we have to like be in tune whatever it's like oh that's gotta be in plenty of fantasy shit come on as a mechanic it's not like some incredible unique thing thank you for a new hope like the force is used so sparingly in that movie yep you could really argue that like well to the point that one of the guides in the uh the one of the imperials is like oh that's some bullshit sorcery shit like that i real yeah it's the reason why i already know that i'm just gonna be like pissed off with this argument there are many many many many many many many people in the star wars world who just live their lives independent of like whatever's going on with the jedi or the seath or any of that stuff i'm like yeah maybe the force is there and it's present and it has some influence on their lives but like they don't they're not aware of it it's not that important to them like it's it's doesn't inform them just going to work and getting on with their daily lives and the notion that like that kind of story can't be told about like i guess you could say more um banal normal kind of uh circumstances situations or like people the idea that that is like necessarily precluded from a star wars story like i just don't like that yeah it's like incredibly limiting yeah it's like you've got to be one of these chosen few who has this like innate ability in order to like qualify for being a character that's got a worthwhile story to tell about them it yeah it's such bullshit that's almost really necessarily related to your role and so there are so many counters to this but one of the ones i'm curious about is he has mysteriously left out the prequels whenever he mentions like true real star wars prequels have more the force in them than the ot does yeah absolutely it's like drinker said the the force doesn't show up that much in uh in uh a new hope no why isn't the prequels like super charged star wars then gonna be more star wars than the ot is i mean that doesn't necessarily mean that the force you know like it's like it's not like you know the force is an exponential force on how star wars story well so yeah the reasonable conclusion must be that it has to simply be present and it's like okay so what about scenes in the ot what about scenes in the ot where it is not present well i mean i might go i might go cringe it's present everywhere it's everything it's everywhere all the time well then yeah we're fine it's in everything penetrates us or whatever everyone said i am the force and the forces with me remember yeah i do i remember the thing he said and what happens if uh what happens if a force just shows up in our and or season two does it therefore becomes it becomes becomes real it becomes it becomes star wars i love the idea that like all we needed was just one moment where luther you know pushes a pencil over with yes with star wars again like it's gotta be more complicated than that right like he just listed like han's arc as being you know quintessential star wars got nothing to do with a force i mean his mind this is the number one most important thing in all of star wars the force which is funny because i would have argued back at him no the other things you mentioned are much more fundamental to star wars than the force absolutely like the hero's journey in the form of luke like that's that's that's probably better the force the force in and of itself doesn't really mean anything it's how people perceive the force and use the force and react to it right like it's not that the force is present it's that luke chooses to be good right that he chooses the light side that he chooses you know like not to fall lights to come to essentially rage and hatred yeah like that you know like it's yeah but it's also as it's a stand in sort of representative for true faith as well which is that you know once it is established in the universe that the force is indeed a thing it makes characters interesting their interactions or non-interactions with the force are partly what defines their worldview so han's cynicism about it at first is eventually sort of coming to accept it in empire strikes back and onwards even without really understanding it and still being a little bit sort of cynical that his relationship with the force whether he uses it or not defines him as a character the same thing is true of and or we know in universe the force is a thing that exists it plays out in many different character relationships very very differently and there's nothing to say that it won't be invoked or referred to in and or if i think someone does say it may the force be with you at some point in and or i can't remember they do i think they do they do yeah it's yeah it still exists in the universe it's just that you're not seeing it all that often but as more you said you know you don't see it all that often in and you hope anyway it's not supposed to be this all powerful ever present thing it's a stand in for belief something you believe in a sense that the universe does have some sort of moral purpose and direction albeit one you have to fight to win um that's what makes interesting i would argue there's a good chance and or season two will have it because of the fact that someone probably was breathing down gilroy's neck being like why weren't they jedi in this why wouldn't there's a force in this we've we've checked out the general feedback and they're annoyed there wasn't as many laser blasts and colorful swords you'll be like uh lony sidles into the room and says hey i've got this cartoon character you might want to know can you put a soka into your show and make it so that she wins the day yeah now now now i'm starting to almost get annoyed because now that i'm now i'm thinking about like mando shit mando's got like the force and all that shit and it was fucking vacuous yeah i don't want that to be star wars it sucks that that star is where it's like what i know has a meaning behind it it's way more valuable than anything that's in mandalorian there was a particularly you know prominent uh person reviewing uh good old addoard he was annoyed that there wasn't more references to all of those things that instead more so like bricks and cements used to create buildings that's not very star wars where's my force users where's my jedi and it's like no you it's not fair that star wars should have to suffer this way the baby yoda like blocking out the what even was that like a a a capital ship crashing into an enormous empire facility blocking all of the fires it's like that star wars no oh then star war maybe it should fucking die don't make that star wars that sucks this is such a do rascinated view of what the universe is supposed to be the most interesting characters are the ones who don't have the force most of the time um because it's you know it implies weakness they have to rely on other things they have to rely on skills and ingenuity character i've i love the uh it's i'm not gonna defend it it's like feeling some great scene or anything but i just love the fact that uh boba fat sorry not just that's indicative jango fat has to take on obi one when he doesn't have the force you know that's that's tough a bounty hunter have to take on a fucking force user it's like you guys have magic it's not exactly fair well remember the one the one thing that we kind of enjoyed about it's uh obi one kanobi was uncle Owen just making a stand against me this is like you know just a guy with like he's always got his like a spear or something he's up against someone who can crush him with the force and he makes a stand anyway and he reflect back down and we just all thought yeah nice one uncle you're pretty good on you man but i hear how the rebels beat the empire was a lot of non-force users like working with i mean really like a few pivotal force users and in the end just one to like well two i guess we're in Darth Vader but you know like to to destroy the empire it's like a lot of people who don't have the force who aren't jedi like doing heroic things it's not like yeah like i don't this is this is such a strange thing to appeal to to determine what isn't isn't star wars i mean it's a little juvenile it's like the like there's no star wars as a as a as a whole universe so which is so rich and potential it can't be star wars if there's not a jedi involved we'll say when 99.9 percent of all the galaxy is non-force users and again a lot of people don't you can tell their stories the fundamental canon that we were given from the ot described that the force was basically dead in the universe like nobody's using it the jedi are dead their fire has gone out of the universe you my friend rule it is left that they're all religion that's his exact quote debater that people are not really aware of the force or it's they're not in communion with the force anymore the jedi don't really exist except that of course now disney keeps insisting that hundreds of them still do billions of i bought a six i think i think they were more jedi after order 66 yeah they showed up to the jedi temple and it was just like empty like they someone clued him in they pretended they got all the jedi for as a pr stunt they just forgot to take the younglings with them when they left tragically yes forgot but uh yeah i will say though this this argument as much as it could be considered strange it doesn't surprise me at all this is one i would expect to be on the bingo list along with lightsabers and uh jedi the force all right when you leave out the jedi and the sith and the force you no longer have star wars why have why why expanse i know you fucking don't okay this okay so this is going to be really lame is it is this is an argument actually like without the force the star wars is like any other sort of like science fiction story that's so