Everybody, I thanks for joining in tonight. We're just at six o'clock now. I can see I'm on the big screen in the city council chambers. It just feels a little awkward from here. I'm sure others will be joining us as we. Okay, there's no sound here yet. Okay, I'll just hold off us again. Alec, I could hear you earlier when you were saying, can you hear me? And I was on mute. So, we can hear, we could hear you earlier. And you can hear me now. Yeah. Okay, that's just this computer. So we can make that work. So, I'm muted. We can hear you. You sound like the voice of God. Oh, dear. See if we can switch. That. Audio. It seems like the audio was working. So, yeah, I'm bugging. Like, like, sorry. We, I guess, yeah. Yeah. Hello, hello. Test one test two. Can you hear us? That is better. Excellent. I think we're. We're a pretty good shape here. Okay, excellent. Well, it is 603. Now, let's go ahead and get started. Starting off with introductions from each of the commissioners that are here present. My name is Kasha Rangio. I am the chair of the parks commission. Andrew. Andrew Brewer also. The commission. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining that again, because I think Lincoln.  Andrew Brewer also a member of the commission. Perfect. Thank you. Lincoln, can you go ahead and introduce yourself, please? Hi, everybody. Lincoln for ask a parks commissioner. And Lincoln is in person in the city hall council chambers. Emily, I know you're just joining us now. I'm going to go ahead and introduce myself quickly. I'm Emily. I'm also a park commissioner. I'm, I'm, I'm eating dinner. So I'm trying to make video, but I will be here and we'll turn it back on. We definitely understand the nature of zoom golf. All right. And then for staff here, we have Alec in person. In the city hall chambers. And then Matt Wilson is also on city city staff who I see here on zoom. And. We do have some folks here in person. Do you want them to introduce themselves or names or how? You know what? Let's. Why don't you pass around a piece of paper to collect everyone's names of those who are present in person. And for those of you who joined us on the computer, if you can type into the chat, just type your name of yourself and anybody who's joining you off. There's, you know, two or three people. You know, joining from the same computer, drop your names in the chat. And that way we'll have a record of everyone who was here from the public. Does that work for everybody? Sounds good. Thank you. Thank you for thinking of that. All right. The February 7th agenda and January 17. I think we have a couple of minutes. I did before we just. Prove and go through with these as we usually do. On the agenda, I just noticed Alec has some really fantastic updates. He's been working really hard while we've all been working really hard on the management plan. And I would love to find 15 minutes or so at the end of the agenda for Alec to give a staff update. If that's okay with everybody on the commission. And that's going to be a great achievement to tonight's agenda. So I will motion that we add a staff update for 15 minutes at the close of the agenda. And then. Yes, Andrew. Just gonna offer motion when time is ready. Okay. So I'm not exactly sure the process here, but let's say I made it, I made a motion to add a staff update. And let's get a second to that motion. I second that motion. Okay. Any discussion on that motion. All in favor of that motion. Bye. Bye. Okay. So passes unanimously. Anybody opposed. All right. So then we need a motion for approving the. Okay. February 7th agenda as amended and the seven January 17th minutes. So moved. Okay. Second. Emily, thank you. Any discussion. All in favor. Aye. Aye. And Lincoln, I can't see you. He's waving. Okay, perfect. Okay. Thank you. Any. Anyone opposed. Okay. Passes unanimously. All right. Excellent. Thank you for that little point of order. For anybody just joining us now. Again, if you could just drop your names in the chat, that would be helpful. Or if you're there in person, Lincoln and Alec are handing around a sign up sheet to add your names to. And thank you for being here tonight. I did want to pause a minute for public comment on things that are later on the agenda, including the management plan and the dogs topic specifically. But if anybody has public comment on other. Aspects of parks. It will pause. All right. So hearing none. Let's move on to a brief announcement from Alec. Hello, everyone. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, great. The announcement is that, see if I can share my screen here. The announcement is just to share information about the country club road outreach. We're currently in phase two of what's. We're currently in phase two of what's proposed to be a three phase project here. And there are three public meetings as part of phase two that are asking people to come way in on potential uses for what could be on the property. Really reacting to the balance of housing versus recreation versus other ideas that have come up. I'm just trying to get their flyer up. So we're currently in phase two of what's proposed to be a three phase project here. And there's also a public meeting as part of phase two, which is on Thursday from 12 to one. It's on zoom. It's only on zoom. And there's also a survey and you can find all that information at the city website. Montpelier Vermont.org. It's right on the front page. Excellent. Thanks, Alec. And for those of you joining on zoom, I did drop into the chat, the link to the survey, I guess the zoom meeting zoom link for the meeting. Didn't come through on chat, but it is on the same city website with the survey. All right, let's go ahead and jump into why many of us are here tonight, which is to talk about the draft management plan and ecological assessment. And this is a work that the parks commission has been doing for the last year, really. For those of you who may be just joining us for the first time or have been part of this process right since the beginning. This is a process that began about a year ago. Our parks. Do you do not have current management plans, which is a challenge for setting the vision and going forward and just setting the future of these parks. We really started this, I guess, two years ago, tackling a plan for Blanchard Park, which we finalized about this time last year. It's a little small park right in downtown Montpelier. If you haven't been there, it's a delight. And then this year we're tackling, of course, Hubbard Park and North Branch River Park. And so over the last year we've had public engagement opportunities. They've there have been over a dozen walks in the park led by the park commissioners and field naturalists and an online survey and parks commission meetings and an open, open house tile forum. And so building off of that, we've been working on two parts of the management plan that really sync together by our easiest to digest in two parts. So I'm going to turn things over to Emily, who's been working on kind of the meat of the management plan and the context and the overview and the history and all the pieces that surround the action table. And then I'll talk about the action table. Emily. Great. Thanks, Kasia. Yeah. So our management plan has five chapters and I've spent a lot of time working on the history. The last few weeks because we had a little miscommunication on the environmental assessment was really quite brief. So we have a little bit more of a robust history now. We have a section on existing conditions and impacts to the park that are current. And then the objectives and recommended actions table, which Kasia's going to talk about. And after that, there's a section on potential impacts based on those recommended actions. And then chapter five is the actions that are considered, that were considered, but not adopted. There are a couple of appendices as well. There's an equal, the ecological assessment is one of the appendices, appendices, park rules and regulations, a summary of community input and survey analysis. And a management plan and environmental assessment timeline. So it really just tries to give a very full picture of how this project evolved and why and what went into it. And hopefully presents a clear guide for the parks commission and the park staff to follow for the next 10 years. It will be a review after five years of the, of everything in this plan will be kind of reviewed and then. I guess in 10 years it will be revisited more comprehensively and kind of. Re updated kind of and the next 10 years will be looked at. And I think it's important to know a couple of things. I dropped a link to the documents to download in the chat. If anybody hasn't found them with the parks agenda and what not already. So take a look and detail there. I think it's important to note this is still a draft. It's something that we're working on. So there are some highlights. There are some details to fill in some additional documents that we're tracking down so that we can make this as comprehensive as possible. And it has, we'll have multiple appendices, including a really thorough ecological assessment of the two parks. And which we really haven't had to date as a resource, but I think it's important to note that there are some of the information from the surveys that have been carried out over the last couple of years and that kind of information as kind of a snapshot and time of the information that went into guiding the management plan and where we are as a community right now. One other point that's important to emphasize is that the management plan itself is kind of a working document that's going to, like I said, change the environment. And that's going to change the environment in 10 years. And it's like, it's supposed to change as like community demands and interests and the environment and everything change. Great. And then the other piece of this is the action table, which I believe you can also access from the link I put dropped in the chat and with the agenda packet. And the action table is kind of the, it's kind of a separate format for the entire management plan of taking all the context and information and putting goals and objectives and actions in, into play. And so this again is still a draft. It will be within the management plan, but it's just helpful to look at as a separate document for the purposes of review and discussion. The, a few things we shared this, but I think it's really helpful to look at the draft of this action table at our December meeting. Many of you may have been there. And we're, I just so grateful for the people who showed up to that meeting who have emailed us comments on the draft. They, you know, attending this, our December and January meetings, filling out the online form that we had to collect information for a while. And a lot of that isn't incorporated into this updated draft. So I appreciate the public participation to shape, because a lot. The purpose of this whole process is to allow, make space for everybody in the community to, to be part of this and to reflect the community. I froze on my computer. Can you guys still hear me? Okay. Yeah. Well, now you're, you got dark, but we can hear you. Okay. I just stopped my video. I'm glad you can still hear me. You don't need to look at my frozen face. I'm glad you can still hear me. Just a few changes from December until now that I just want to highlight. First and foremost, I think that people will notice a change in the format. And so the, when we started down this path, we had kind of divided the parks into multiple zones. And then we were looking at the zone separately and then merge the two parks together. And so what we realized is that what we're trying to do here is really have a holistic picture. And there were a lot of redundant things that were relevant across both the parks. So we really merged the two parks together for a much more holistic action table, which reflects kind of the connectivity between the parks, both ecologically and also recreationally. We also did a lot of work to tighten up the language. We also added a potential partners column. This surfaced from some of you as community. Community members saying, who's going to do this? The reality is that. Us as the parks commission or park staff. Can't do any of this alone. And so it was really helpful with this in terms of just looking at language consistencies and words consistencies and making sure that we're as clear as possible. Throughout the entire plan. We also, we added a potential partners. Column this surfaced from some of you as community. We also added a potential partners. We also added a potential partners. We also added a potential partners alone. And so these are the people that we will be likely turning to and more to help to implement to the, some of these things, whether that's by informing or. Taking action and being responsible for the actions here. A few of the notable content changes just to highlight here. And some also one parkway. You know, with some questions and speaking up around road closures, the core street pieces is removed from this. That's not here anymore and just wanted to be clear about that. There, there was a lot of, we received multiple suggestions on refining the language around the trails on the new parcel and also from. The city of Vermont. In the city of Vermont, we have seven fireplaces to North Park drive or elm street area. And so we really fine tune that language. Refine the language. And I think really helpful. At the suggestion of Alec or maybe also some members of the public. Reference the Vermont town for us trail design. For those pieces, which I think adds a lot to the plan. communities goal that addresses a variety of ecological communities from old forests and open meadows. We also added a section specifically related to rivers and wetlands and water to this section and this was due to some really specific and helpful comments that we got over the last month or two from some local experts in wetlands ecology and rivers and wanted to make sure that we incorporate those pieces into the ecological section so that's new. We'll talk about dogs shortly and I want to pull that piece out specifically because I know people are really interested in that piece but in absence of the dog issue which we'll get to in a second, I just want to pause and see if any of the other commissioners have anything to add to this kind of brief overview and the plan for the evening before we do that is just to have this overview, have discussion around dogs specifically and then back up again to the plan as a whole and look at other specific actions or elements of the management plan and next steps for us as a commission and hopefully that will help make the best use of everybody's time here tonight. So with that any questions updates anything from the parks commission? Kasha I'll jump in and try to speak hybridly so my back is in turn to the people who came in person and people who came virtually but yeah just broadly to the actions table and the goals, objectives, actions table that we've been working on like I just wanted to highlight the process and you know where we started off in very site specific kind of detail oriented doing walks looking at specific areas that people appreciated and wanted to see change you know and then we kind of analyzed those those comments and those meetings into sort of more you know action items and you know the parks separately and where we're at now you know which is I'm really happy with this like this merging into kind of like the bigger picture of yeah we have these site specific action items but we're also looking at these parks as a whole and taking into account past present and future and it is a very visionary document if I do say so myself and I think each one of these actions will need its own management plan but we crammed a decade's worth of planning into this last year and you know I think we did a pretty good job of casting a broad net and then also trying to look at the site specific things that that you know fall through the cracks of those big ticket kind of goals so yeah I'll leave it at that now just for kind of my two cents and we can jump into specifics here great thanks Lincoln all right anything else to add before we launch into the dog discussion okay let me see if I can take my put myself back on video because I feel very absent not being able to see as we launch into this and then if any of you are listening and want to put yourselves on video you're welcome to do that of course I wanted to thank you all for being here and for really speaking up and being part of this issue specifically and like I said earlier a lot the entire management plan is you know we we stepped into this in a space of wanting to listen to our friends and neighbors and community members to do our best by our parks that we can as commissioners and so your participation is really essential to that and whether you're able to be here tonight I know many people emailed us and couldn't be here and just want to say that you know you've been heard you're part of the conversation and this is not the end of the conversation this is you know a continuing conversation and as I see some more people joining us just want to mention if anybody is joining us if you could just drop your name in the chat so that we can catch your name for the minutes that would be great and I think you know a lot of the things that we're hearing are probably not surprising we're hearing that people who walk their dogs love being able to walk their dogs off leash and people who don't and there are also people who don't love people walking their dogs off leash I think that's a known in our community right and as we head into the conversation tonight I want to just share a few things one is there we're not making any decision tonight and so I hope that makes relieves the weight off of us as commissioners and also of you as the public we're here to listen and and have this conversation together and it's not like there needs to be a decision tonight and so I think that it's most helpful to keep this conversation solutions solutions oriented and in order to help inform us what we're trying to do is create a management plan which is kind of a suite of solutions for the park across all topic areas including this and in order to be in a solution space I think it's really important that we're all thinking about the same challenge that we're trying to solve so I want to just say this is not anything that's in the draft plan the discussion tonight we're not having this discussion because of poor behavior of dogs or it's not some kind of critique of dogs in the park I think we could even assume that every single dog and every single dog owner is just impeccable behavior and just the very best loveliest dog just like my own that we would all like to have and I also this is not us as commissioners like out to get dogs or dog owners or anything like this this is us trying to be responsive and responsible managers of the of the park and so if those aren't the challenge I think the challenge to me and I think to us as a commission as really rooted in this mission statement that the commission adopted probably three or four years ago now and may have had a version of this before then but our mission statement at something from top of all of our agendas it says the parks commission advances a long-term vision to ensure that parks, gardens, greenways, and natural areas are vital to Montpelier's community identity and forever available for the enjoyment of all and I think it's that last piece there about being forever and available for the enjoyment of all is the challenge that we're really trying to figure out a solution to and so I think what we've heard in conversations with neighbors and guided walks and surveys what we're hearing as a commissioner is that there are many people we hear that ever that people really love dogs we are also hearing that there are many people in our communities who are our collective neighbors and friends who don't feel safe and welcome to come to Hubbard Park which is really our kind of flagship iconic park as a community if you think of our parks in town it's the Hubbard Tower that comes to mind I think for a lot of people and there are some people who don't feel safe and welcome because there are dogs off leash and so I think the question is what can we all do as a community to ensure that all people have a chance to know and to love the parks that we all know and love so much and these places that are so near and dear to our hearts how can we ensure that all people can come to know some of these places and have that experience so and and us as a commission trying to answer this question we created really as a visual for tonight kind of a continuum of options which in fact maybe Emily or Andrew Emily could you maybe pull that up and just do a screen share and we can have that as a visual okay great and so this continuum of continuum of options Emily's going to pull it up it's definitely not comprehensive but really is just kind of a visual to guide our conversation and everything within the continuum from having no dogs at all in Hubbard Park whether they're on leash or not or not to having dogs off leash everywhere in Hubbard Park and all the pieces in between these are really some of the solutions that have come from your neighbors these are things that have been proposed in various forms to us as commissioners and really just kind of shows the spectrum of possibilities which is of course infinite there are infinite ways to kind of dissect days and times and places and all of that so this is just meant as kind of a basic tool for our conversation and I think the latest you know as commissioners we've talked about this that this comes up really I've been on the commission for almost five years now and it comes up many times a year every year in the last several months that kind of the pieces when we were trying to think well how do we make sure our parks are welcoming to all the the pieces that we've talked about a whole range of pieces here and the piece that's in the draft management plan which again is a draft and is not going to you know we don't have to adopt tonight I just want to share what that is because I think that there's been some confusion we've gotten some emails of people thinking that we're kicking dogs out of all of Hubbard Park or having leashes everywhere and I just wanted to be clear on what the even the draft proposal is so the latest iteration is really captured in the draft action table it would add a new dog waste station at what would be a new trailhead at Windham Drive at the southern edge of the new parcel it would require dogs to be on leashes on two trails the stone tower path and the brand new interpretive trail I think a lot of people have come to know it also as the accessible trail it would require leashes on roads which is no change that's our already city ordinance already requires dogs to be leashed on roads and this is simply kind of surfacing it in the plan and reiterating that there and would require dogs to be on leashing parking areas which is a space where dogs are excited people are distracted getting in and out of cars and we've seen when some of the many of incidents go unreported and but when they are some of them are happening in parking areas and seem like that would cut down on some of the kind of challenges of and making people feel like they're in a safer space and a couple things that are also in here we heard from people when we initially had proposed this in December I guess it was people saying oh if dogs are have to be leashed in a parking area what about that kind of doggy play area that's at the elbow in parkway dogs like to run around there would that mean you couldn't use that space so one of the things that's in this newest version is to have like a basically like a single-sided fence between the parking in that doggy play area so that you know dogs could run around and be free and have and also have that kind of barrier so they're not like running straight out into the road or anything like that and have that separation from parking and then also in the earlier version of this it had dogs to be leashed on within 150 feet of trail head trails and trail heads in parking areas and we've taken that out as well we talked about that in January and decided that that didn't make sense so that's that's kind of what's in the draft right now it doesn't have to be the path forward as you can see on the continuum there are kind of a multitude of possibilities and I think that's just kind of to say to you all that we would love to hear from you we're here to listen and want to hear your ideas in terms of what can we do as a community to make sure that all people again have the chance to know and love these special places and these parks that we really love so I'm going to turn it over to unless commissioners have anything to add I'm going to turn it over to the to the public to speak up no nice job cash yeah thanks for summarizing cash I also just wanted to say I'm really grateful for all the participation from people we've gotten so many emails and I'm sorry if we haven't responded to them or or made a clear statement of changing our plans but it's we've gotten flooded and it just is a reflection of like how much we love these parks so it's all good we're just very busy so I'm glad that we're having a chance to discuss tonight and hopefully we'll work yeah I would add I think I tried to reply to everybody for a little while and then I quickly gave up I can't keep up with so but thank you very much for all the comments and for everybody weighing in great okay that that was great yep I've got nothing to add at this time um and Lincoln if you can help us with the room in person and you know with the hybrid model just if if anybody wants to speak us up let us know if there's somebody there or on the computer if you notice but Stephanie's joined us oh fantastic hi everyone sorry Stephanie could you please um formally introduce yourself for our recording sure yeah I'm Stephanie Hunt I'm one of the parks commissioners um I'm happy to be able to be part of this conversation tonight thank you all right I see a hand from Joe Castellano yeah hi thank you so much I'm gonna lower my hand right now can you guys hear me okay yep I did send out an email earlier this week that I believe Alex distributed to the rest of the commission and my comment is I take my dog I live over on Savin street in Montpelier and I take my dog across town to socialize with other dogs in a Hubbard park and for a lot of dog owners it's actually a real community I mean we know people and as a matter of fact there's one dog owner who has dog parties at his place a couple times years for all the people that he knows and has met through dogs at that we all socialize with and it creates a real sense of community that I would feel that we would lose if dogs were required to be leashed on a lot of the trails and unfortunately the stone tower path which tends to be one of the more popular ones is where a lot of us tend to socialize and we'll talk about you know we'll catch up on things if we haven't seen somebody or we'll talk about health issues what's happened with so-and-so so I hope that we can keep the same programs and the same rules in place by also realize there are people who are very very fearful of dogs and I certainly have seen how front porch forum lights up it's one of the few topics that gets front porch forum to go off absolutely crazy you know the pro dog and the anti dog camp so anyway that's my that's my thought thanks Joe I appreciate it yeah yeah come on up yeah sure yeah okay so we're just gonna kind of open up the in-person floor now and if folks will come up and just please introduce yourself and your name and maybe where you live and follow this speaker note intro okay okay I am Rebecca Coppens I live on Cliff Street which is right in the edge of Hubbard Park um so I just want to remind you that in 2017 we as a community voted about the dog issue it was a definitive vote in favor of keeping dogs off leash in Hubbard Park um this was a incredibly polarizing issue then and it's I it's always shocking to me that that when when people want to weigh weight into it again because it's um always going to be a polarizing issue um so I walk in the park every day with my dog my dogs um and often my neighbor's dogs as well um a lot of the people that I see every day um are they use the the main big trails because they are unsteady on their feet and they are dog walkers and so choosing um you know the widest most accessible trail to be on leash um is arbitrary um and then I think a better solution would be to say if you if you want to create a space where um a time when people should be leashed um make it specific two to four on Saturday and Sunday um and that allows everyone to be able to um keep their you know their the mental and physical wellness routines that they have now but also be more inclusive and that doesn't create this you know winners and losers that this proposal is is really setting up um we feel like um I mean I've been I've been walking my dogs every day unless I'm sick or not home every single day um and everyone that I see in the park they're daily users as well um a lot of them are going to keep using the park as they always have and it's going to create this really terrible confrontation I think um and so I worry about this kind of winner or loser concept um the parking lot issue is totally arbitrary um if you are concerned about people getting out of the car with their dogs um because they they're excited and they get they jump out of the car and they start running around make that the specific issue you know have asked people to put their dog on a leash before they get out of the car until they're on the trail um and so they're not you know it's they're not just entering so abruptly um there's a wide swath of land um that is that's restricted to um on leash dogs it's north branch park and um the argument that people can't can't enjoy nature without dogs running around is just not true because it's a larger as large as I think a swath of land is Hubbard park um and I think creating this policy will push people that are have off these dogs into how into north park and make more of a confrontation there um so I just want to reiterate what the person before me said the community is is a really wonderful one in in the park um there are people that I see every day that I suspect I may be the only human they see and I say hello to them we know each other when people don't see them you know we wonder and we ask and we say you know we follow up with them um there is an incredible wellness mental health and physical health um component to the dog community um and I think it's it's a community that would be really impacted um if if we lost the the current um makeup um so I ask I ask everyone I see in the park what they think of this policy most people haven't heard of it um I would recommend that you go into the park like physically into the park and do a do a data you know a data data gathering project like the bio um you know like the the bird count um but with actual people in the actual park rather than asking broadly um because you know it's beginning February most people made a news resolution in January I bet you most of them have not um checked with it um and it's the same with people that are surveyed um if you ask anyone in the world would you walk more I'd be like oh yes I would walk more if if you did these things I would encourage you to let's let's um give the people the benefit of the doubt that are actually using the park now rather than saying you know making this resolution that someday maybe they'll do it um if if certain things are are meshed so I just want to summarize create a short window of time like two to four on Saturday and Sunday leash leashing within the the parking lot is totally arbitrary and get more data from actual park users thank you thank you we're back to that um could we um unshare the or unshare the screens uh the person sitting so folks who see the person sitting here great yeah thank you okay in person comments not your only chance but we kind of open it up to help the flow thanks sure I'll go for it does this is it this is it right it's fine it's good okay all right I'm uh thank you thank you so much for having this time tonight I really appreciate it I'm jessa Barnard I live on Bailey Ave so kind of off the side of the the stone tower trail um again I really appreciate this additional public input opportunity I think that's unfortunately what had sort of been missing is some focused discussion on this topic um I hope that can continue as you said and thank you for saying there's you know no decisions tonight and some more time on this I personally think it would be unfortunate actually to maybe even solve this problem one way or another within an excellent park management plan that really has consensus and a lot of public buy-in about the futures of our park and instead sort of bookmark it as a this is a project for the park commission to solve over the next however six months to a year um I really think it could benefit from more focused discussions I appreciate seeing the sort of uh I call the timeline of options the continuum of options I think that's really worth exploring more as Rebecca before me said I think that could I think there's opportunity to get that specific level of feedback from um for everybody who you know people who currently use the park people who say they could use the park what actually might make them feel safer in the park I really do worry that the current proposal will lead to future conflict because you know knowing those trails really well those trails are intersected by a bunch of others that would continue to be off leash so the acorn trail ravine trail tower circle trail the tower road um so I I think it is setting up people who don't feel safe around dogs to think they will be in sort of a completely dog-free zone um but in fact I think it could increase um interactions and then lead to more upset you know walkers on both sides more reports and then um unfortunately more trails being closed to off leash dog walking which I think is um for those like me who use the park on a daily basis with our dog we sort of see this not as a final answer but as a first step towards closing more trails and so I think that's part of the fear you're hearing I know you're saying it's only two trails you know it's it's a small portion of the park but it feels like kind of the first step in many and in fact the first step along a continuum of other parks already being closed like north branch the elk's club you know it feels like this is the only off leash area remaining and so we really hate to lose that safe place for people who can walk especially as you've heard from people who may be less stable had disabilities I saw a comment on front porch form of a woman who was pregnant you know it is the safe flat trail where people can currently walk their dogs off leash for me as a cross-country skier um and I just saw that mentioned in the full plan so I appreciate that it's really the one place I can safely cross-country ski with my dog because cross-country skiing with a dog on leash really isn't a very um safe option I'm working on that but still not going so well um so I I really think if this is an area that parks commission wants to continue to explore I would encourage you and I would be happy to you know help with this I'm sure there are many in the room who would be happy to do more work like let's put those continuums of options into a survey gather more feedback you know I think the the hours option holds some potential I was actually that what occurred to me today is what about seasonal you know so for example in the winter when there's cross-country skiing could we still ski on the stone tower trail um so I think there are options I think it would be unfortunate to rush into a decision without really getting more broad input from those of us either on the commission or just in the room tonight of what might actually help solve the problem I also think um personally I would say you know if this is sort of a compromise about having everybody feel welcome in the parks if there is a a loss of off leash walking at Hubbard park I think it should be paired with some off leash walking options at the other parks so if there are some hours added at Hubbard that would be closed to off leash walking could there be some off leash walking hours at another location so that everybody has access to all the parks which I think is the goal of the parks commission so thank you I really appreciate the time of the commission tonight and happy to keep working with you and hope for future opportunities for dialogue and thank you I just want to say quickly thank you I do really support the I saw the changes about the fence at the dog park location I call the dog park location and getting rid of the 150 foot perimeter piece and I think those really are I really appreciate seeing those changes so thanks good evening Tim Duggan I live on Parkside Drive near the park and wanted to start by saying you know recognize all the work that you all have done on our behalf for the last year and you know it's a lot you guys are volunteers and I really appreciate it so just wanted to start with that I sent around probably probably overly verbose comments to the parks commission earlier today so I just wanted to sort of raise the high point you know the chart that you just shown kind of really crystallized the idea of compromise to me and you know seeing at one end of the chart the status quo with dogs off leash and Hubbard Park and the other complete band I think really sort of misses where where we are today I think we we sort of have an existing compromise where we have a park a dedicated place for off leash dogs and then everywhere else in town as the place for on leash dogs so I feel like you know when when when the the issue is frames that where the status quo is all the way off to the right rather than being in the middle um it kind of frames the discussion in a way that everything's got a knock down from there and I just don't think that's the the way to look at this right now uh jessa I think did a great job of talking about the idea of you know if this is a compromise where the goal is not to set up a winner and a loser um then you want to really start from the place that recognizes they sort of compromise and um if there is a diminution and ability to experience the park in your preferred way on the one hand there should be some gain on the other hand so I do think that this is a topic that is worthy of further discussion you know it's a hot button issue for sure um recognizing that you folks have done a lot of work on this this took a lot of us who you know I'm not on social media fortunately uh I'm friends with jessa and she told me that this was happening uh in December so I became alerted to it I didn't see any signs in the park about it um notifications that there's a draft management plan under consideration would never lead me to believe that the hot button dog issue was being taken up so I I really feel like that the conversation to date you know it's there's been folks who prefer the an off leash Hubbard park have been playing catch up in some ways and I'd ask that you sort of make the space to hear that voice and I think you'll find that a lot of us are very cognizant of you know our friends and neighbors who want to experience the park without a dog running right up to them um I think there are ways to uh before taking a sort of more heavy handed regulatory approach consider whether or not you try and engage the goodwill of of folks who have dogs with some kind of campaign in the park that um sort of really tries to educate them on the value of uh being very cognizant of of our friends and neighbors who don't want to have our dogs come right up up to them it's a very fair point um I think jess had a good idea and Rebecca about ours um and I think they're uh there are any number of degrees a fenced dog park somewhere that might you know be a controlled space for dogs to uh play off leash those ideas are out there and I think there's a lot of willing dog owners who uh you know follow the current rules of having their dogs under control um who would be more than willing to engage in that topic um offer some give you know but try and maintain what is truly special about Hubbard park to a lot of us I'm out at dawn and dusk I rarely see anyone when I walk my dog um I do a little bit of a loop on the tower loop and the only people I ever see also have dogs um um I still leash mine every time I come across someone because he likes to run up to people and I know that's not something people want but I I when we're just two of us alone in the park at dawn I think it would be okay to have him off and I don't I think this this um proposed rule would sort of be overly restrictive by uh kind of taking too many things away uh without actually solving the problem because at the end of the day that people aren't and follow the rules are not going to follow the new rule and we're back where we started so bottom line appreciate the plan uh more uh verbose comments in the written versions by handouts of folks who are here and I emailed to you earlier and I'd ask that you consider them and uh willing to engage in the conversation thanks which is time thanks Tim thanks Tim um let's I see Marin has her hand raised um and digitally so let's move to a zoom space for a quick second before we go back in person if that's okay hi can you hear me um sorry I'm like not quite set up for zoom here but um and I can lower my hand there so it's not in my front on my face thank everybody thank you so much for having this and I'm actually really grateful for all of the kind of heated conversation that's happened online and whatnot because I was actually not totally aware of everything that has that the Parks Commission has been doing and it afforded me the opportunity to go back and read through all of the the lovely planning and history and it's it's really incredible work so I'm really thankful for that and and to be able to join here and and for all your work and and the way you laid it all out in the beginning is is really great and all of the points I you know I would back up uh everybody said so many really wonderful things so far that I would agree with I just wanted to kind of circle back around to what the first person said and I was really taken in the beginning um you read the mission statement of the parks commission and in there there was a line around community identity and that really struck me because that's one of the things I've really been thinking about what the first person was speaking to which was the community that exists and it is a really very active community I think is demonstrated tonight in this meeting um where we're not people who necessarily socialize with with each other outside of this although there is this party you know dog party that happens and there's a lot of friendliness but there's a lot of people that you know in a kind of increasingly technological and isolated world where we're meeting like this online um you know dogs running up you know greeting each other sniffing at each other really encourages people to have community engagement and to greet each other and talk about the weather or even just say have a nice day and the way that it the way dogs encourage the cultivation of community is foundational in the identity and I think Montpelier does have a lot of identity as a kind of dog city and and I think a big part of that has to do with the way that we can move around in in Hubbard Park and see each other and greet each other in a way that dogs on leash just does not you know if I'm walking my dog on a leash um I'm walking my dog on a leash not able to pause to say hi or talk about the weather or just catch up on somebody that I I probably wouldn't see otherwise um but is always friendly and engaging um and that's not to dismiss other people's experiences of dogs but I think that part around community identity and what we want to kind of hold to and and what that fosters I think that really would be a loss for the city of Montpelier if that was kind of disenfranchised and and I agree with the statements around kind of it creates the slippery slope to other things um so I appreciate the opportunity to just kind of chime in there on that that point and all the work that all of you are putting in is just really wonderful and um I'll I'll send it back and stay tuned to everywhere that this goes so thank you great thanks Marin let's go back in person there's somebody in front of the camera yeah that's I'm Pat folks and I also live on Cliff Street and um I moved here about 10 years ago with my dog and at the time my dog was two and a half and I moved to um help my daughter with my grandchildren and throughout the 10 years because I live on Cliff Street there's a loop that I can do going up at the end of the road and around and then I have infinite possibilities after that I can go to the tower I can go down to either one of the shelters I can go to the frog pond depending in the winter I go less distance because it takes me twice as long to get there but my dog and I have made a lot of dog friends and people friends since we've been here and um I also have gotten old since I've been here and so is my dog so now we're in a position of needing more flat loops that we can do and to keep doing our exercise and to keep meeting the people and running into the people in the park and um so I agree with a lot of the things that have been said today I'm not opposed to times when dogs have to be on leash in the park and that everybody would know when those were and I'm not opposed to there being some areas where dogs need to be on leash in the park when I see people coming toward me in the park I put my dog on leash if I see children I put my dog on leash if I see another person who has a dog that's on leash I put my dog on leash and I think that could be added to the dog code of conduct and posted because then you're not going to scare people because if they look nervous or they ask you to leash your dog you can just immediately do that so I think there are a lot of options available and still keep some loops open that are relatively accessible to people that are older I have a lot of older friends that walk their dogs in the park and it's the main exercise we get every day so that's my two cents thank you and thanks for all the work you guys are doing thank you thanks Pat um let's see am I missing any digital I don't see any digital hands raised let's keep it in person okay I'm George Dash I live on Sibley Avenue in Apulia um I sent comments through basically thank you so much for doing this work and and developing this compromise for the um as I see it the basically shared use of the park and I like I like the the continuum that you showed about the options uh because when I was thinking about what I wanted to say I uh I had to think about one thing that doesn't seem to come out in this so much is that it's it's either you're a dog person or you're not a dog person and and it's really a continuum it's it's a it's a spectrum of people I mean I would put myself in a category of people who I don't particularly like dogs but I have a lot of friends who have dogs and we I get along fine with dogs that know me and and whatnot but and I'm I have to say that I'm I'm very frustrated I I think I haven't been the covered park in so long now because of all of the encounters I had with dogs that were not under control even dogs on leashes to a certain extent where people come up and then assume what you're walking in a park so you must like dogs and you know I I like dogs that I know I like dogs that I know under control especially when I'm with my grandchildren who I will throw my body down in front of a you know an oncoming vehicle for if it would help to solve the problem but I just I have a lot of problem with the number of times I've been in and around my pillar and Hubbard Park before I stopped going there where I had to had to essentially put myself between the dog and my wife or for my grandchildren and my kids actually a long time ago when they lived here and it gets so it I know that there are a lot of good people with dogs I mean and I'd say by and by and large the majority of people on the bike path etc when we're walking they do they leash up when they see somebody coming or they will they will ask if it's okay if the dog is in contact with you but I think what has been presented is a really good compromise for the use of Hubbard Park which is a it's a phenomenal resource for the city of Montpelier I've been here greater than better than 40 years and I just I appreciate the work that the commission has done I'd like to see a compromise like you've developed for the use of Hubbard Park and you know it doesn't necessarily have to be the trails that are that are proposed but I think that having that the ability to actually go there and not have to deal with the people who you know essentially tried you for not you know knowing how to deal with a dog because you stood between them and and your grandchildren is like a little too much for me to deal with so thank you very much thanks for your work I appreciate it let's judge thanks George let's go back to zoom again and we've got Arthur Folch hi I'm Arthur Folch I'm also on cliff street I just wanted to say thank you to the commission for all of the work that has been done here particularly I think in context of the expansion of the park and then with the parcel that was acquired we have the opportunity to do so much more in Hubbard Park now in a much more in a much less compressed kind of space and I think to me that's really where the kind of approach that you all are trying to think through right now really makes sense which is being able to set expectations for particular areas of the park so that people recreating in various different kinds of capacities can have sort of a sense of like what that experience might be like and looking through some of the comments that you included in the in the draft plan about people's concerns both about north branch and about Hubbard Park a lot of that is about you know being able to have expectations going in some of that is things like you know knowing how to find your way some of that is about dogs some of it is about bikers some of it is about skiers so I think in the vein of thinking through you know trying to create a way in which we can have a better understanding of the kinds of activities that are happening in particular areas trying to come up with policies around particular trails being you know restricted to dogs on leash makes sense given the feedback that you all have gotten and certainly from my own personal experience it also works with that really well so I think just trying to think about for me like when I think about the park I think about those main centers of the park where cars are being parked the the tower trail and the what is being called the accessible trail those are high areas of activity and the kinds of expectations of being able to get out of cars and being able to navigate those it makes sense to me that we would have some sort of common expectations but to other commenters points you know maybe it might make sense to consider variations of those trails or something if you are to go forward with having an on leash policy for those but I also just want to you know from from my perspective being able to control the kind of density of activity in those areas and then allow for you know in the in the newly acquired areas to have areas where dogs are able to be off leash that seems to me to make a lot of sense to be able to accommodate those different kinds of uses so again I appreciate the thoughtfulness with which you're approaching this and it really strikes me that the ability to create a sort of solid expectations for people coming so they know what kinds of activities happen where is really key to making whatever policy you move forward with a success and I I think I've heard that from everybody who's spoken although we may not agree directly I think we're all actually pretty aligned on the fact that that sense of expectation is really important and the clarity of communication around it is really critical thank you appreciate it um let's go back is there somebody I don't see somebody in person so let's go to David I see half of your hand raised hi David Miles here I'm a long-term resident of course street and just following up on the last comment in terms of clarity I'm wondering why and I don't know if this is a right place for this question now directly to the commission but why the existing policy on no off-leash dogs on roads in the park is not part of a canine code of conduct and I guess for the conscientious dog owners who know that code of conduct and also the city policy why there's such a huge percentage of dogs currently on park roads that are unleashed and again to follow up on the last comment are the times that I've been bitten or charged or attacked in the park have typically been on park roads not on park trails and often in the area that was referred to as the dog park but between there and the ranger station where there's a lot of activity there's not great sight lines and there's often a gaggle or frenzy of dogs coming or going there so I'm just wondering why it's not part of the canine code of conduct could it be put on there could there be signage to make people more aware of that fact I think that might go a long way in terms of clarity around existing policy and if we're going to try to build solid policy upon what we've already got maybe making that clearer from the get go would be helpful thanks David not to ignore your question but I'm not sure we'd have to do a historical research project simply on the canine code of conduct I think to answer the question around why it's not in there or isn't there but I think is a great you know idea that will add to the list here of possibilities a solution so thank you for sharing that sure thing well we're a little after seven o'clock here and I'm sure there are other people who would love to continue the conversation and have more to share tonight I think just to move things along here I do want to close just for tonight the the public conversation here I think this is clearly something that does need to continue and have more conversation around it but I want to turn to commissioners and just hear some of your thoughts and ideas and also you know paths forward and next steps that you're all seeing here before commissioners speak I see Donna's hand and she probably has like a point of order or something you're muted I can't hear you yeah thank you for seeing me I had another meeting going on when you changed your date but I really appreciate all the comments there's just one correction I want to make and it is about the ballot item that happened at the special meeting in June 2017 it was a question should dogs be leashed in Hubbard Park and it was just a non-binding an opinion poll we wanted to get a sense and it was 678 yes 600 no I'm sorry 678 no 637 yes it was 41 votes difference so we felt the community was you know a mix and hence anything you can do that helps that mix I think is great and it wasn't intended to be binding we just wanted to get a pause on where the community was at large and trying to make the resource work for people and I really applaud your approach and everyone's participation and input it's all helpful thank you great thanks Donna um all right commissioners I'm going to turn to you all for um I think ideas and next steps or approaches for kind of what maybe makes sense to include in our draft going forward kind of you know what what kind of next steps do we need and want to see her and I'll remind everyone that the draft includes like put a dogway station at Wyndham Drive I haven't had no one suggest that that's a bad idea so that could maybe stay in the management plan there may so maybe there are elements to keep elements to rephrase or postpone or um to continue the conversation so you're speaking specifically about dog related issues kasha yes specifically to the dog related issues and then we will put a bow on the dog conversation for this evening and then look to the rest of the management plan for other topics of management plan okay I'll jump in here um I yeah I just want to say thank you for everybody who came however you got here for this specific meeting in this topic I think the comments we heard tonight fall directly in line with what we've been hearing throughout this outreach process um which has been going on for a year I understand you know um the word is getting out in different communities at different times and we're you know we're in the we're in the middle of it right now there's no this is a draft proposal by all means um but that you know 50-50 or nearly 50-50 split that Donna referred to in 2017 it and that you know and that vote was for leashing in theoretically the entire park it does feel like that rang true here tonight um just in those comments I wanted to point that out um I I appreciate what Arthur's comment was about just the expectations I think the reason part of the reason that you know this zone of Hubbard Park is so contentious is because it is so accessible and so highly used and such a gem you know you it's one of the only it's the only part where you can really just drive in get out of your car be on a trail um do do your walk um know what to expect in terms of the trail have you know accessible walk and the the next action item after the proposed you know modifying of dog policies is to identify two miles interconnected Boulevard trail that would be maintained at the same standards of the tower and interpretive trail sign that as an accessible off leash dog walking because to me that is a big part of this balance where there's people who aren't a part of this conversation or are a part of the Hubbard Park community because of our current policies and we want to bring those people in and the last thing we want to do is remove community that is existing right now um that is bring people together through off leash dog walking and we know that there's literally accessible issues on both sides but people can't walk their dogs with a leash because of accessibility reasons people you know can't walk around dogs off leash so we need to I think as a community fit those people into the same Hubbard Park zone and I I do like right now where the plan is at in terms of that balance I'm definitely open to thinking about um interpreting some temporal language here you know I think that does complicate things but I do know you know in a lot of other parks where that has been successful um so I'd you know I'd be interested in continuing that conversation but I think we're really close to something that um I think strikes the balance that we're we're trying to get out here I feel like we've um just like Lincoln just said um we've heard so much on both sides um and there's been such a strong response that I don't really see a problem with just making this turning this into like explore further options in terms of dog leashing and dogs off leash um and if there it does seem like there's a lot of kind of um interest in volunteering and getting involved with it so if we can like harness some of this energy to do an actual study of how people are using the park and how people want to use the park like reaching out not just to the people who are using the park but also those who have responded to the surveys and said they're not visiting the park because of dogs um being able to understand those numbers a little better in order to make a decision about how to move forward might make sense um Emily does that sound like um you know so that we can move forward with the rest of the park plan without having this you know has delist having this delay implementation of the rest of the park plan maybe a little bit yeah um yeah uh so um yeah I had to noodle on that I'm not opposed to that but I don't want this to drag on for months and months and months either um and I I am totally open to the idea of of if there's some kind of a committee uh some kind of a maybe some kind of a survey uh uh engaging many of the of the stakeholders in this to draft something um I am I am open to that idea um you know we've heard so much very passionately about um the community um um that people have um and you know I hope people realize and I speak to myself and I think I can speak for some of the other commissioners all the other commissioners you know there's no intention to harm or damage those communities and the wonderful friends and relationships that people have we are trying to uh and I'll I'll paraphrase Arthur's words a little bit too um totally paraphrasing Arthur's words um you know make sure that others have the chance for that kind of uh community as well and what we've clearly heard is there's a fair number of people who don't have that um it's not a minority a small minority um or um you know some small fraction of it there are people who are clearly not going to the park anymore um and you know the idea of the I am not I am not wedded to it has to be the tower trail or nothing else um but there's a reason that we that we focused on the tower trail yes it is the most popular trail in the park probably um for dog walkers and non dog walkers um and and I think our our thinking at the time was it needs to be more inclusive and I so I think that's how we zeroed in on I don't want to speak for everybody else on that one um but I think that's how we zeroed in on that and we recognize yeah I'm not going to sit here and you know measure the actual square footage that we're affecting and say oh it's only a talk we know that it's the trail we get that we get that um but I it was intentional why why we came around to that one so um so you know I think for me I am speaking for myself on this one um you know if we have a committee or something I welcome that I think there's a lot of people tonight who have offered uh to help with that I appreciate that um but the I but but starting with there's no problem and we don't have to do anything it's fine the way it is that's that's a non-starter for me um I have a lot of a lot of voices and a lot of people I've heard from who are very supportive of of the attempt of what we're doing um some people supporting exactly those two trails other people saying it doesn't have to be those it could be other areas but I really appreciate the intent of of as Arthur said managing expectations uh that when we go there there will be places where I don't have to worry about that that's my thinking and where I would like to start from thanks Andrew um Stephanie sure um yes thank you everyone for all of your public comments tonight um past meetings and that we've received via email there's clearly a very passionate and responsible dog-owning community that um uses Hubbard Park very frequently um and I mean I don't see all of you all the time but I am a dog walker in Hubbard Park um off leash and well I haven't had any you know egregious issues with other people or other dogs I've had some you know unsavory experiences that would not have happened if dogs were truly under voice control so while you know we all hope that our dog will listen they're it's not always happening so there really isn't a safe space right now for people to go in Hubbard Park that don't trust dogs or don't like dogs or just don't want a dog to come up to them because a lot of dogs are currently not under voice control in Hubbard Park um so our intention will at least one of my intentions with choosing this trail for um on leash dog walking was because it's accessible it would be I know a trail with that people with young children could easily use or people that are older could easily use and those are the people that we have heard from in you know person to person feedback and in surveys that they don't feel comfortable coming to the park people with young children and people that are older um so that is the intention and I am open to I think a temporal limit could make sense um like you know on leash only after 9 a.m. I think that's reasonable so people can get the early morning walks with dogs I'd be willing to explore that uh with the other commissioners um I am in favor of moving this along and including it as part of the plan um rather than delaying it um you know we've we've gotten a lot I mean a decent amount of public feedback we've done two surveys we've done all the field walks every field walk that I did I asked people point blank how would you feel if we um started leashing dogs in some of Hubbard Park you know whether it's a zone whether it's a trail what do you feel about that and I was shocked that no one was like oh no that's a terrible idea everyone was like oh yeah that could make sense I could see that working this was both at the field visits um and that are like open house that we had so I do think there is general support for this outside of these of you know the daily dog walker community um so I do think we need some sort of action and I do think we're really close here but I would be um interested in looking into a temporal adjustment to our current language I have to google temporal now hold on a second I'm not putting that in the notes Andrew um okay so I have heard let's see we have um suggested to kind of rephrase to um explore or this kind of like continue exploring with the caveat I heard from Andrew of if we do that let's make sure that doesn't take months and months and months like let's just do that and be done with it and make a decision um Stephanie I think I heard from you what if we could maybe make a few tweaks now over the next couple weeks here and come to a decision um and um I um did I did I capture that is that okay yeah okay um I I think my you know if this is I think the reason this this even came up to us as a commission we were not sitting around thinking like dogs and Hubbard what could we do about this or like let's wade into Montpelier's third real issue and see how we like it like I don't think that what happened was that we actually were hearing from that silent group and the silent people saying I I don't come to the park or I used to come to the park and I don't anymore and I think that was happening because of a lot of the engagement we've been doing has been working and what I found even you know with my neighbors I was talking to them the other day because they had a kid they have a caddy's and you know second third grade now but a few years ago they had said oh we don't go I know you're on the parks commission we don't go to the park we don't go to Hubbard because my kid's afraid of dogs we can't go to the park and so I just let them know hey this is an issue coming up like just if you're curious this is what's happening they said you know I um you know it's I I wish we could have gone there when a kid when my kid was young and we didn't get to go there but I also don't want to email you all as park commissioners I don't want to show up to a public meeting I don't want my name and my face associated with that because I know that this is such a polarizing issue you know so I think that's just to say that that's just one of I think many conversations that we've all had and I think Stephanie you brought up those walks that we had in the park last spring which I just thought were such a wonderful experience because we were connecting face to face with people and one-on-one conversation that was just really rich and productive and it was also in those some of those one-on-one conversations where people said you know what I would come here more I don't use this part of the park because of dog so that's you know that's just to say that like I think there's this what we hear from often are the people who are walking their dog in the park and saying you know it's great I'm here all the people I hear see in the park have dogs they're all off leash and everyone I see is really loving it and what I want to be sure no matter what Pat whether we're making a decision in the next couple weeks here or like over the next few months say I want to make sure that those silent that silent voices are hard whether they're a majority or minority it doesn't matter I think it's important that we make space for them to be hard and it's going to be the hardest group of people to hear from and I just want to make sure that we're very intentional about including those people in the in whatever solutions we're coming up with yeah I mean I think one of the strengths we have right now is that because this issue has surfaced people we've gotten so many emails from both sides so we have all these email addresses that we can now contact people and say hey would you like to participate in a focus group on this or join a committee that's going to do a study or I don't know it's a it's could be an opportunity to talk about solutions in new ways that hasn't been tried before because there hasn't been an effort to like really look like study how people are using the park there how people want to use the park it's just been one vote yeah and you know what the potential partner that we've listed here you know includes the community volunteers and I think that you know the folks who have been emailing us the folks who have been volunteering already to join on you know some sort of focus group I think we absolutely need these people none there are no park police you know this is in New York City we're not going to have somebody out there you know handing out tickets whatever whatever's happening now and whatever is you know potentially going to be changed is up to the community really this is you know we can use the strongest language we want but you know I'm not going to stand out there and you know spend my Saturday and Sundays asking people to put dogs on leashes nobody you know that's not what we're doing here in Montpelier so I don't you know I would be in favor of moving forward with the language we have you know and continuing to discuss you know possible additions from what we've heard tonight but I definitely want to add including um you know even even if we go forward with this as is right now like I would want to be working with the people that we've been hearing from dog dog owners and non dog owners about how can we implement this plan how can we actually do these action items and you know where does the sign make the most sense or you know what are we going to do at this intersection the people who are out there every day um on both sides of the dog issue you know I would want to see that kind of come together and work on just you know implementing these actions I think is going to be totally necessary so I think that should be something we're thinking of and I heard in a lot of the comments in the recent weeks which is you know how it's what about the challenges that this is that this is going to surface you know if we do go through with this so I think that's something we need to be thinking about is getting together a group one way or another you know if it's to explore this option or if it's to implement this option and assess I think we do need to be moving that direction of building a building a focused team Donna did you have some institutional history to add that we missed well oh thank you you're so great um it was Emily and that's because I just wanted you to know that the commission spent over two years developing the comp that ended up being the k9 conduct code and hearings and public and it was so divisive that it was really uncomfortable but they but they held in and they came out with that k9 code of conduct and that was a compromise so I think again and again as we all mature with diversity and equity equitable use of resources that were at another level in our community so it's really great that you're at this place to go another step in that direction so but you are building on a base that's happened before okay thank you thank you very much thanks all of those commissioners are smart enough to not be on the commission now no city council members got more emails about the dog that we had the audacity to put that on the ballot it was really people were very upset and it's too bad because dogs and parking get the more emails and we wish people would be as concerned about some other issues too but anyway so you don't have an easy task you don't have an easy task thank you well thanks Donna um I am thinking you know we do have a management plan here if we were to like delete everything about dogs I think our management plan would be lacking and have a gap and a hole in it and so there's the seems like there's some needs to be something in there so I'm thinking that maybe it would make sense to kind of read through what's in there now and think about like what is totally fine like um perhaps the dog bag station at windham drive which is the first bullet I think we could leave in the plan okay and then sorry kasha yeah is there uh gonna be a new they're gonna be some new dog stations it in north branch as well right I don't see not seeing those here um Lincoln there were I would say for Hubbard there were originally proposed um more like at seven fireplaces in talking with Alec and Cara on staff it was clear that it would be challenging to maintain those dogway stations um by having to like have vehicle access and your round and and whatnot and so that's where the windham drive one seemed like it would have the best year round vehicle access um and the others were removed from Hubbard okay but maybe Lincoln can speak to north branch yeah I last I remember we had one or two at major entrances I have to find where it's been moved because we did do the big rearrange rearrangement so um you know I can I can work on that and dig that up and and include that language in this dog policy if it's still in this version of the draft it might be the only it's only a windham driver now thanks Alex so um no other stations are being provided there is a dogway station at the rec fields um and then there's not one coming from north branch nature center I think the only location that's like vehicle accessible would potentially be like the coming street neighborhood so um maybe we could follow up and ask Alec and Kara what they think about just the logistics of maintaining that but maybe I'll just pin that as a possibility to look into more um the next piece here is the stone tower and interpretive trail let's just hold that for one second um the dogs to be leashed on roads open to motor vehicle traffic is in keeping with the city ordinances it seems like that makes sense to keep it's not any change it's simply you know by surfacing it here it means that it would be more prominent for us to put it on signs and in the canine code of conduct and things like that um I'm seeing heads nods does that make sense okay um should we also add like add a specific note that like and add it to the canine code of conduct existing canine code of conduct yeah well actually so I don't know much I mean about the origin of the canine code of conduct except from what we've been talking about but is that meant to be etiquette suggestions things that are not regulations and rules additional responsibilities for dog owners or you know best practices and if it's so then do we need to mix what is a city ordinance in with those that list does that make sense there I think it's meant to be guidance I mean Alec you might be able to speak to this more but my impression from kind of the the litter this what we have on our website and stuff it seems like it's guidance and it's also a place that dog owners go to know what to do when they're in the park so like having that in there like I'm a dog owner and didn't actually know about the city ordinance until this conversation began so like a few weeks ago whenever that was so um I I never looked it up and just like didn't know so I feel like in the interest of like spreading awareness of it it might make sense to put it in there and I mean it may be like some of our other actions in here it's like you know at community and additional communications including canine code of conduct you know there could be postal media or whatever you know there could be other aspects to that especially if it's perceived as a new thing simply because no one has told people that you're supposed to have your dog on a leash on there um Stephanie you're going to say something yeah just that I agree with Emily that I think it makes sense to have everything dog related in one place so I mean we can just refer people to the city ordinances um that and like quote it um in the canine code of conduct rather than saying that it's part of the canine code of conduct necessarily okay all right yeah and the next bullet here is requiring dogs to be leashed at parking areas marked at on maps with p and at shelters uh would it be two in the weeds to say and at shelters when they're in use I mean I don't see why I should be leashing my dog when I'm walking past an empty shelter that seems reasonable um can I just chime in with a staff perspective on that um which is that I think in terms of thinking about how we would enforce some not enforced but clearly set the expectations like we would need to create some sort of signage when you're approaching a shelter that told people to put their dog on a leash and I don't think you can really it wouldn't be in a place where you could like necessarily see the shelter in a lot of places before you get there and often people's dogs are running in front of them so yeah I think it would make it oh it would make the expectations pretty fuzzy if we went with when in use is my my perspective shelters and parking areas it seems to me that we haven't gotten that much there hasn't been much um feedback on this one I don't know if that's because it's fairly new um but maybe people are okay with it I think the most feedback that um we heard or you know via emails and and whatnot was around the dog park and concern that if my dog has to be a leash in the parking area that I wouldn't be able to have my dog run around in that doggie play area which I think is solved by the fence kind of solution um and it did some one of the people who spoke tonight maybe jessa I think um said you know if you know maybe it would make sense if dogs are active to have an expectation that your dog be on a leash into leaving the parking area um I don't and I might have gotten the person wrong but um it's that it seems kind like that would make sense and I think would maybe cut down on one of the other people spoke said you know when they've had four interactions with dogs it's been on the roads and essentially like between those major parking areas um that could maybe cut I mean I think one of the pieces that we're trying to do here I you know I heard from people tonight like this is a slippery slope like what more is going to be close to dogs and I think in fact what we're trying to do is like reduce the conflict so that we can continue to have like places open for dogs off leash and it seems like the parking areas are a space to like make progress in reducing like the human dog conflict um that wouldn't significantly impact some of the other concerns we're hearing of community and people and use and all of that I agree and it also I mean it's kind of a safety issue with cars okay um andrew were you gonna say something you looked like you were gonna say something trying not to cough um I wonder if we could um take a minute and I want to understand what we're doing moving forward and we're not voting on anything today and we said at the outset that we're not making any decisions today feels to me a little bit like we're making some decisions and I want to make sure people in the audience understand that we're not voting on anything and and so are we um and you're right kasha I don't you know I two things neither am I prepared to make any decisions tonight at the same you know I want to take our time at the same point in time I you know I said earlier I don't want to let this drag on forever and ever so I'm trying to reconcile you know are we uh you know if we if we change some language to say I forget Emily may have said you know we're gonna consider options rather than this is what we are going to do you know I don't want to let that mean well now we have all the breathing room in the world to let nothing happen for a long time um so you know do you think the do other people think it might you know we don't have to cross every i and dot every t but I want to talk about how what are we going to do are we going to set up um a committee you know made up of stakeholders and uh you know how how and how can we communicate with people from tonight moving forward we do have a lot of emails but you know we've heard that people didn't know this is happening and what's the best way and it's got to be quick and efficient I don't want you know you know I don't want to let things drag on we can talk about a survey in this stakeholder group the surveys take time and um I don't I just have a lot of questions obviously bouncing around in my head how we're gonna how we're gonna move forward tonight no I think that's that's helpful I think what's important maybe just that we all know as commissioners but to share with the public we have a five person court we're five people on the commission and we have a three person quorum so that means that if there's ever a time when three of us are talking to each other and we have not warned a public meeting it is illegal so yeah thank you for pointing out I was going to say it sounds like we don't know what we're talking about and just because we haven't been able to have these conversations and so I just want to say that because this is the only space we can talk to each other it's not like we can like listen to you all tonight and then end the meeting and then just like run into each other around town and you know we can talk to each other one on one but can't actually legally talk to each other together thank you for making that point yeah this is the only space that we can have these like details of like you know what should be in or out or how do we phrase this right um so what I'm thinking so there's um this this is what I'm thinking we well I skipped over the like primary bullet which is like the two the the leash is on two trails there's one more secondary bullet here which is like the fenced doggy area piece like that came from and it's not like a fence all the way around but it's simply kind of like a single edge barrier between the parking and that field space it came from you know collectively from the public I think multiple people suggested it does that make sense to include essentially like no matter what happens of any kind of focus group if that's the path we want to go forward does that make sense to include I think we heard some support for that yeah I think so okay I think it makes sense you know I think it we would that site we would think of it I mean it could definitely feel more like a dog park even with one fence and that's something just to consider in the the maintenance of that area or like the resource hardening or other things that we might come along with the fence or what that signals to people um when they see you know a fence fenced an area with dogs even though there's only one fence just thinking about it from a zoomed out perspective I like the idea and I think there's like that's one with there could be repercussions that we could maybe try to foresee and plan for because people are going to say yeah right on dog park you know so um maybe maybe uh adding some sub bullets there of what else is going to be done for maintenance in that area and I think it would have to have like a gate wide enough for a car that could like wheel aside or open aside because that area is used for like overflow parking when there are events and things like that so um I think that would be a useful consideration but yes please I was just gonna say I don't know if we need to get that granular in this plan though I mean I think it's enough to say we intend to build a fence we'll see like what that actually looks like and whether you know how it materializes but yeah and so um the bullet that we skipped over was requiring dogs to be leashed on the stone tower trail and the interpretive trail so I think for that bullet in particular I'm just going to share like a continuum I cannot like possibilities we could keep that in the plan for now and like keep thinking about it we could um put that in or some version temporarily and say like until we actually make a decision let's have leashes on and I guess no decision has ever really been actively made around the interpretive trail because it's like it's a new trail so it's not like a parks commission ever said let's have leashes or not leashes it just kind of accidentally became leash zone um we could have a um focus group to um to think through like with some parameters of let's do this over the next few months let's make sure that there's survey that there's x y and z type components let's do it by the state have people reporting back to the commission and I may be missing some things um I think that um you know one of the tough things about this issue and then gosh I think you referred to them as like this the silent community that we're not hearing from the people that aren't coming to the park because of dog related incidences and I definitely agree with a lot of the comments we've received that basically say how do you know this will make any difference and we we don't so maybe one way to propose this is as a pilot study that we do this for six months and then do another public outreach sort of you know situation where we figure out has this led to more people coming to the park I mean it might need to be a little bit longer than six months because we need to get the word out that these are now areas that dogs are required to be on leash um give people you know a chance to change their daily routine to include going to the park um so maybe we maybe it's more of a temporary um proposal pilot study sort of thing than something that we're saying yep this is this is how it's going to be going forward forever interesting idea I definitely like where Stephanie is heading with this like I think we know something needs to be done I think the question that we're up against is what needs to be done um so that that kind of resonates with me some some form of that um I also you know you know I want to go back to something I said about like okay I don't want to you know I'm not going to be the one out there you know putting leashes on dog or something but that in our plan is you know in this same goal is working with city services local organizations to be walkthroughs or bike throughs um to monitoring activities engaging with visitors address dressing issues so I think you know if there's a proud period or not I think that focus group should include this outreach you know campaign to the people the boots on the ground the people who are there maybe visiting Montpelier on a Saturday Sunday and just like actually seeing how things play out and I feel like if you know that we have such a strong community around the dogs that I feel like there would be a lot of people again on both sides of the issue that would probably be willing to you know maybe do a day a month or something like that where they're going and observing at very least and then you know other people are comfortable with engaging but collecting that information um could be valuable but I I think I think it would be useful if there was an action to be um responding to versus like kind of continuing sort of the no action but gathering data which I feel I feel like we have a lot of information in that category there definitely can be more there could be more opportunities I understand there's you know there are shortcomings in terms of like getting out to everybody um equally or getting the word out to everybody equally like that's a learning process it's it's challenging I think we've done an excellent job um and we can never do enough so yeah if I would I would be more in favor of moving forward with something and then monitoring it with a focus group and reworking language is saying you know we we are going to be able to adapt this to actually meet the needs we're not saying we know the the solution because we haven't you know there hasn't been anything but what we currently have just no leashes anywhere I think this has potential I'm also thinking about um the there was somebody who recently wrote an email suggesting that we request people leash their dogs on those trails not like tell them to but request it and we could also like we could suggest you know like share the reasoning and suggest like if you see somebody coming please leash your yeah I don't know suggest might be pleased or we suggest that you lease your dog or something like that and and have that either be part of the pilot study or just kind of in place when the focus group is doing their study to see how many people are actually following it or how many people feel like they should follow it or if they're if they're stopping the people stopping people and talking to them while they're visiting the park they can ask them you know how do you feel about this new suggestion do you feel like it's reasonable or does it make you feel like you're being told what to do or um that well um Andrew you look like you want to say yeah I think these are all things that a stakeholder group should be wrangling with yeah that that exact question and um you know right away I thought oh the pilot study but then I thought well yeah but you know these are these are rules by the way not law what we're working on here and we can change overnight I mean we can you know we we can change them at our whim and at any time if something's not working and we're not going to do that um but I think that you know having a having a stakeholder group um that we can come up with these plans come up with these ideas and test them out if that's what we want to call it um it you know sounds like a sounds like a way to go um uh I you know I didn't go down the road of my personal experiences in the park and stuff and I won't bother but I you know um I I will take it face value that we need to you know I well I'm in the park a lot and then so I I am not with a dog on with a dog so you know I guess I'm not part of that community uh but that doesn't mean I'm not in the park and don't experience a lot of what happens so um you know I I was gonna say I do need to get in the park more actually I think I'm in the park a lot and so I am I do have my own experiences in what I see and what I feel um what I'm there um but let's let's take it a face value that we that we need to we need to include you know broader spectrum of stakeholders in this and um so you know I don't know how others feel but if we can we don't have to again we don't have to decide tonight exactly what the makeup of this will look like or or or or timeline um I just want to let it get away from us so um how about this it seems like um there I'm hearing a lot of like focus group or here's how it could work or whatever that I don't think we can figure out tonight um you're a lot for me um well how how about we like two two people um I'm it's not gonna meet me I'm going for volunteers in the commission um to kind of like chart out some parameters like this is this is like the kind of survey or this is the kind of outreach or this is what this could like potentially look at like or how you know this is how we get people involved in the focus group and figure this out on a timeline and come back we meet again in two weeks on the 21st and say like how about this for an approach to a focus group and then go from there does that seem sensible are you asking two commissioners or two anybody I'm asking two commissioners and then two commissioners could like you know reach out to other people or whatever but I think a commissioner should bring forward like here's what I think would and it's not solving the problems it's not putting right right right but is like here's how this the process of this how you know in the timeline for this is how this would potentially work I'll I'll volunteer for that I unfortunately can't because I'm missing the next meeting and work travel um but so just would this mean that we're removing the bullet about well yeah so then I think the next question is what do we want while you know that focus group isn't going to we might decide to like yes have a focus group we're not going to have the focus group meet and conduct study and make recommendations like in two weeks so um I think then the question is what do we want the kind of interim kind of status quote or not status quo but like what do we want the interim condition to be and so between now and when the focus group completes its work whatever that is then the question is like should it be off leash everywhere or keep these bullets in or um you know some you know like Stephanie you were saying like this is a temporary trial or something I mean I think it's a lot easier to study change than it is to study the status quo and what could happen so I'm in favor of making a change and then the focus group figuring out whether it's actually effective I I agree with Stephanie I would be in favor of adding the focus group to this to the current plan the creation of the focus group and just to clarify is what you're asking is that in the next two weeks you know a couple of us are to pretty much get the language down or the idea together or the focus group together because those are two very different things No yeah and I think it would be this would not be part of the management plan so the management plan would not say focus group of 17 people with five meetings and you know like we don't need to say that but I am hoping that two commissioners could just put their heads together draw on other people if you know and say like hey here's an idea for how focus groups could work who could be involved how we get the right people involved and the right voices heard and all of that here we think we can you know have these steps to be ready to present a proposal essentially back to the commission by two months from now or three months from now or whatever that timeframe looks like um Andrew you signed up for that I think Emily uh well I don't know there's very good at this I'd be so good at this I'd be willing to like proofread it or that's a yes no that's a yes I'm not I'm so immersed in the management plan I cannot well um Lincoln what Lincoln yeah so all right yeah I mean I I'm really happy to play my role on the commission and I I work best if we have time before the deadline so you know if I'm going to be a part of uh whatever you know that you know getting together an idea for focus group I'd love to know what I can do for that sooner rather than later so if um you know if I'm working if Andrew if you and I are gonna spearhead or something let's just connect you know this week and let's figure out what each of us can do um and I yeah thank you Emily for saying like you're you're up for proofreading or something I don't think you need to be lifting anymore but yeah you might be the best right commission so I think we should use everybody but I'm happy to connect with you Andrew yeah I'd love to know what I can start doing you know later okay so let's we like we said at the outset we are not making decisions tonight we're not voting on anything we just have discussed and we have kind of a path forward I think we can also sit with some of the conversation we had tonight and revisit in a couple weeks and fine tune I think in the meantime with some of this conversation um we can um those of us who have been kind of like in the minutiae of the wording and things like that we can jump in and you know craft some language to bring an updated version for our next meeting um all right is everybody are we feeling good on this topic yeah 45 maybe we're an hour past what I did find the entire Montpelier dog issue before we close the door on the dog issue there are two way stations there Alec in the goal four is uh C and if we want to take them out that's fine but I did find them okay let's put a pin in that to connect go for C objective C it's snuck in there it's a cat litter um okay so yeah just put a pin I just I just wanted to get that on the record so we didn't forget but yeah okay we're gonna look at that okay excellent I am going to move us along to the remainder of the management plan we are an hour behind um how um we had a three or four hour meeting that was memorable so a couple months ago I don't want to do that again if people are going to hop off if you could please if you haven't already drop your name into the chat so that we can know who you were and that you were here or you know or email Alec at the or something just so we have your contact information please that would be very helpful so please do that as you're taking off um I think we all totally approve of calling it a night if you need to so don't don't be afraid if you need to leave um let's turn to the remainder of the management plan and the action table and all the other things that are in the management plan um and spend some time there's other stuff in the management plan there's other stuff and I think it was especially I guess I have closing and next steps as another space here but I think it would be helpful to have in mind like what else do we need to do we've you know had a lot of these discussions um where are we um any topics that you all would like to bring up as commissioners uh yeah there was something now I forget what it was oh well uh you know we've discussed the um the idea of of no commercial logging and then somebody suggested what about selective logging with horses which I thought was interesting but um uh and I think at one point we had talked about you know none of us are foresters I'm certainly not a forester you know getting the opinion of an actual forester on what the best thing to do is some of those trees and I just wonder if there's any appetite for for that or leave it as it is well um two things um the current draft does not include no commercial logging language maybe I should pull it up and look at it well it's you know it's hard to remember what's in which yeah yeah and I did when I got that person emailed today I was like oh shoot is that in there and it's right okay so um and that was per alex request especially I think um and then there is also in there um to bring in an ecologist to make additional recommendation okay okay with I think it's buzz says specific attention to like the plantation some of the areas that like area Erica had mentioned um and then as to whether that you know whatever the recommendations if it's like horse logging or whatever like I feel like that we don't need to prescribe yeah got it okay uh there was something else now I can't remember what one person um had emailed us or maybe a couple people um with um they must have read the whole plan because otherwise how can you see this is the line or is the language around Mr. Hubbard's like deed and will saying that um it's to protect the wilderness qualities and the wilderness character of of I forget the wording um and they were saying that um you know the idea of the boulevard paths and further developing those places would be a shame and I think you know just to clarify on that like I think the reason the places like seven fireplaces and the tower trail like the places that are mentioned specifically as boulevard trails I think are in there because they're essentially already developed and already the easiest trails so I think the actions in there would be putting benches more frequently along them that I know um you know people with you know various mobility issues that like if there's not a bench every quarter mile or so like they can't they have to stop to rest and they can't walk so I think that's just to like surface what the idea what there is um and their email make me made me think of um a concept that we haven't talked about um but Dan Dickerson who was on the commission for like five years he just left a year ago brought up multiple times was this and um I'm probably gonna get it wrong but um this idea of having kind of like a wilderness space in the park where it's kind of like an education zone where like people are using you know the trail maintenance would happen by hand tools or the kind of similar characteristics as you would have in like a designated wilderness area right next to the capital space um I know Dan hasn't been part of these conversations obviously isn't on the commission but when I saw that email I thought of Dan's idea and I don't know if it's worth bringing up this late in the game I want to see how Alec feels about you know using a hand tool to cut down a tree that's I will challenge Alec to a cross cut I think I liked that comment from the from the I think it was a woman who sent the email um Kasia too I it also left out though so like I have been very conscious of that mission too it's it's like to preserve Hubbard Park's wildness for future generations so like the implication is like yes it's wild but the reason we're preserving it is for people to enjoy I think um and then the other piece of the history that's interesting is that the first landscape arc the only landscape architect they got to work in the park had a very I mean it's like typical of that time but a very like human centric view of how the park should be used and understood with carriage paths and like very closely like tended flower gardens and all the rest so like I do feel like it's it was intended to be a balance but especially with the new property I feel like there's a lot of potential for something for a wilderness area like what you're talking about there's also a difference between I mean the word wilderness has been used for ages but you know when Mr Hubbard gave the city his land and said it to protect his wild character it was sheep pasture so I I mean this feels like a 30 000 foot view question and we should be way below that by now right and this far along but um Emily I struggled with that too with how it's an urban park and literally every inch has been walked on and stepped on and whatever and and to what you know yeah how do we how do we at this you know so we're gonna we have this park that is that is tremendously used and loved and adored but at the same time how do we protect that wilderness aspect of it and you know we don't want to you don't want it to be in disney land where it's manufactured you know uh but I don't know it's a question I struggle with other you know if if our if our goal is a preservation or preserve well then you can't you have to make it off limits to any use whatsoever um we don't want to do that and I don't know maybe there are sections we do and I don't know I'm just thinking out loud but I struggled with that question of how do we accomplish both of those um now to some degree we have I mean I I don't feel like the you look at the state of the park now and it's not a wasteland it's not like it's it's still a forest and it's still it's still doing pretty good um and so maybe our goals to make sure we keep going in that direction um you know and I think I think we have there are a lot of elements in here that strike that balance that you were just talking about Emily and you know in terms of like accommodating our wide array of different uses in the park and um you know the the whilst also having that you know character of the very northern part of Hubbard that we heard again and again that people appreciate that wildness and the solitude and kind of maintaining that and so um you know it feels like we found that balance of basically yeah and and we're not proposing benches in that new portion along trails and the area that we were I know they had a comment in their email about the playground the play structures um and we're proposing that and you know the meadow area right at the entrance really so not you know in the forest um so I do think you know the character of this plan is already supporting uh keeping as much of the park wild as we can um while also you know encouraging all sorts of people to use the park great okay that's helpful helps me um oh go ahead I was gonna say I wonder if we could include a map of like in the mansion I'm like making more work for myself here but if we could make a map of like quarter mile because actually a quarter mile in the park is like pretty big right like the existing benches that are along the way that like one of them fell down a couple years ago but the ones that are going up to seven fireplaces they're like two there were two there's like one down by the intersection with the trail at the bottom of the hill and then there's one that was like kind of halfway down there probably every sixteenth of a mile those exactly those were very close together yeah so like really we only need maybe like one on the way to seven fire but in like how many benches are we talking here you know like kind of that idea this is a burning question are there actually seven fireplaces or do we have to change the name I know I'm gonna go count them do we have to call it five fireplaces no I think Alex told me they're five all right we're all we're all getting a little punchy now I this kind of off topic but I did want to follow up so Emily did you do that that deed research like what happened with the turnstone research yeah no she basically just did the deed research and she didn't even do all the deed research because the the parcel that was donated by or was in the Hubbard family is only part of what is currently in the park because the park has grown so much yeah um for Hubbard park so there's a whole bunch there's a section of deed research that we don't have and needs to be done but we don't have time um so you've been doing like this you've been doing some historical research that was not like didn't get done as part of the ecological assessment I was yeah I was feeling trying to fill in some of the blanks by like um when I was when I did landscape history you like you overlap the the maps yeah see like where the land is and try to do some of that to figure out like what the land actually looked like and also writing the narrative piece because she didn't write any yeah no that's great I mean I really appreciate like you are filling in the gaps in your experience there and it's just good to know for like moving forward with like proposals and like when we're asking for work to be done because there was such great work that came from it and big whole kind of I guess in our like narrative the narrative piece it's like a miscommunication I think about what we're getting yeah I think it's good to know Emily your work on the that narrative and like you know just pulling together all the pieces in the management plan like the context is so incredible I mean you've pulled that together quickly and very thoroughly your writing is amazing Emily I was really impressed I just loved the tone of the whole thing it's great yeah it was great um in terms of um I things I've heard there may be some little gaps that you're working to fill in or whatever if you if you want to let us know like what you need from us let us know um I know um I um just like a step that I have in mind that we haven't looked at quite so closely as the actions is the partners and the timeline and I would like to Alec if it's okay with you sit down with you and take a closer look together at that timeline and the partners together and just see if there are people you know of or groups or whatever that are missing and just get your sense on like what's achievable and kind of realistic and make sense for the timeline um and then in the management plan um Emily you had flagged the space where there's a gap still with like actions considered but not adopted I'm glad to help with that content and comb through our past agendas and minutes and things like that um and then of course you know other people to weigh in on um are there other kind of next steps that we want to tackle here um to kind of put a bow on this by you know essentially in a couple weeks good night can I just couple flag a couple quick things before answering that question um they're all in goal three um objective C or action C provided amenities that serve people with a wide range of abilities and interests so the ADA access to tuning fork stage there there's a very comprehensive ADA transition plan for Hubbard Park but I think we should just reference instead of saying that specific one um I like you could you um provide that as an an appendix I think would be helpful to put and if you could just share that actual plan yeah for sure yeah I'll just share the part about Hubbard Park because it's citywide great citywide survey um and there's an action table that goes with it too and um the upgrading the equipment on the fitness track it was interesting you know somebody emailed about this or like um yeah and it was interesting to me we just sort of put it in here to upgrade that but we didn't really have a conversation about whether or not we want to do that uh or it would be worth it it's quite expensive and a lot of work so I don't want to have that conversation now I just want to put a pin in that um and then a similar comment maybe even from the same person that's dali natural player climbing structures for young visitors at seven fireplaces and the wind and drive meadow that's um you know I think it's another good idea and um also is expensive and a lot of effort um playgrounds are you know a bit of a nightmare um so to you know to to do uh legally I guess I should say um so wanted to put a pin in that one potentially for a discussion as well just to think about whether or not that well should be in the plan as stated um I like a question if we were to update the fitness trail would that like trigger some of the same legal issues because it'll be structures that are probably used by children and like uh yeah I my guess is yes but I don't know I don't know okay I guess I'm curious how the current I wouldn't call it a playground but natural play structures came to be better near um the ball field yeah um and whether this could follow a similar process or whether that process would no longer work yeah yeah those were built by volunteers um in the Jeff era when yeah I think it was a little more of a wind in the hair approach um as to what could or should be done yeah okay well let's put a pin in those concepts I feel like they're pretty little and we could maybe talk through them in a couple weeks and Stephanie I know you're not going to be there but if you want to like email me or I'm in favor of trying to do a play structure I understand it's difficult but I'm in favor I just want to be clear that we're all in favor of that I I could take her leave the fitness trail um I mean I I think it's funny that you know people say no one uses it it's like is that you know because it's not in good shape would people use it if it was there and nice I don't know um I disagree I think a lot of people use it oh really kids love it but whether or not we want to invest of all the things we want to do whether or not we want to invest in that thing in Hubbard Park I think what triggered it for me was that person made a good point that like we have to choose where these things are in the city and my daughter loves the fitness equipment and she uses it all as play structures I see Emily also nodding I think that's a comment my kid isn't old enough yet I'll I'll be there soon I guess yes um okay um any other next steps to capture or um before we kind of close out I would like to hear I know it we're gone over a little bit but Alec you've been doing a lot of work and I would like to hear your staff update if we can move on before we move to move on from this just like logistically I just kind of want to recap and then also talk about like the the online you know just like how we're going to get it done but it sounds like you know Kasia you're working on the timeline and partner stuff with Alec Emily's continuing to work on like the the master plan Andrew and I are going to connect over the dog next steps Stephanie is traveling and hopefully going to be okay after surgery and then all that Celeste is going to bed but um my question was okay because we've been doing all these different like online documents editing it together editing it separate so I just want to get like all on the same page of if we have comments on the you know the goals objective actions from now until next week should we send those edits directly to you Kasia if um that makes sense because we have like we all are shared on a google drive but my understanding is we can't all be working on it at once yeah we can't all be editing a document together so at this point I mean I think across time okay all right so maybe we I don't know yeah but um okay um so let's do um if you have edit suggestions for the action table send them to me phone call email whatever if you have suggestions on the management plan kind of contacts narrative send them to Emily if you want to talk dogs talk to Lincoln okay okay just so you know that I just wanted to get out there because I was confused after last about how we were editing the main plan but Emily cleared that up for me and I have word now so that helps okay um let's shift to um I staff update Alec so the limelight here um I'll just try to hit the highlights since we're we're kind of late here but I think they're really the biggest news to share is um that the um project on Gould Hill Road is moving forward um we got uh purchased in the last month a purchase and sale agreement with the landowners and um then went ahead and we were awarded funding from BHCB to match the funding that we already have from the community forest program so we are moving ahead to purchase what looks like about 51 acres of land that is attached to the north branch park and East Montcalier Town Forest along with the 400 foot corridor that connects that land to Gould Hill Road on the town line which is really great there's a lot of great things about it um it's beautiful piece of land and then I think just yeah having further dispersed access and places for people to explore very germane to the like wild parts of the park um that is definitely a wild section of the north branch park or you know what will be the north branch park so yeah that's exciting sorry Alec is that the john kim property yes yes yeah commander Reed and john came to the landowners yeah um and they've been wonderful wonderful that's great congratulations sorry to interrupt so this this you know I'm looking at parcel viewer which says that 66 acres have they carved off 51 of it is that what they've done yeah yeah basically we purchased the portion that's not buildable um and they're keeping the buildable portion yeah this is great that's awesome this is really great congrats that's that's huge yeah yeah it's great it's great it's sort of it's a lot easier than the Hubbard park exchange for any reasons mostly because it was cheaper you've been on a roll Alec yeah it's great is the community forest funding the same as was used to purchase the expansion or is that a new grant our new fund yeah yeah it's the same one and basically what happened with that was that um the community forest program could only supply 50 of our project costs and only certain project costs and just the way that the chips fell like their funding that we got was 258 thousand but our the projects that cost that they could pay for were only 224 thousand or something so we were leaving 30 grand or so on the table there and uh this project just sort of happened to fit perfectly in and fits a lot of the same goals so i ran it by their grant administrator and he said yeah that that makes sense so nice work way to be creative yeah great out um and then yeah moving forward on a lot of other projects that i listed i don't want to go through them all but i'm happy to answer questions uh if people have questions i didn't have a chance to look at your staff update sorry alec i will i'll add that to my list of things to do um but i wondered we don't have to answer that you don't have to answer this now or it also relates to management plan just in terms of like your staffing capabilities and the amount of manpower it's going to take to like implement and manage all the stuff we have in the management plan like have you thought about that or i guess we ultimately will will do that as we go through the things in the management plan but i wonder if it's something that we should consider when we're outlining the timeline yeah i said how fast can you get it done and he just hit me with his book well and that's why i was gonna follow up with alec about the timeline specifically to make sure it could be i think that's central to that question good yeah to answer your question directly emily i think no i haven't put a lot of thought into whether or not how it relates to our capacity and i feel like i've also been chiming in at times when it hasn't happened a lot but at times when it like we were talking about something that seemed not feasible for our staff so now we'll take a closer look at it kasha and i will go through it together and yeah there's a lot of good ideas in 10 years so yeah and i think it also doesn't need to be all like completely feasible right now i think it's okay if it's kind of a little bit aspirational but i think that we should be aware of like how aspirational it is that right right um alec i'm curious to hear more about the u32 to vcfa and the state house path both because i know that those have come up but i wasn't sure on like landowner permissions the whole way or i was you know i wasn't sure if we're like working with on the design for u32 i guess i had i probably missed another staff update but hadn't realized like we had a contractor doing the design and like had linked together the land enough like i thought there were still gaps in there so just wanted to hear more about those two trails yeah yeah so we we had some grant money to do the design work for both of those trails um and so yeah i've been moving forward with that this fall and winter um the the designer for the u32 trail is timber and stone who did the accessible trail because the you know the hope is to make that universally accessible too and we do have landowner permissions all the way for the whole route um so now we have a design now we need to go back to the landowners um and say this is the design do you still approve you know and talk to them you know about what the trail looks like and and feels like and then the other piece of that is that um the you know the city by me elks club came in after sort of a lot of this project was rolling and while it's wonderful and gives us a lot more flexibility on that property it's going to slow down the project because now we're beholden to the process around that land so it's possible that this trail will come through you know maybe the process will finish up this year and they'll say one thing we know we want on country club road is this trail so you go for it um i would be thrilled about that but you know i'll say we need another three years of study on what's going to happen here yeah the design for that is similar to the accessible trail the interpretive trail in the park like gravel and wide and like generally not see that would be awesome so that's a design choice that i think um um probably the landowners ultimately need to make uh we chose to design it to that standard so that we have that option um and so it's to be determined it could be i think anything from you know footpath to that yeah that would be awesome well i think based on the speed at which the interpretive trail has become like a beloved city trail in very short time it seems like there's like high demand for that type of trail yeah i hope so i agree um and actually just on the interpretive trail i forgot to put this in the staff update but we did apply for a $30,000 grant to finish that trail all the way to the tower um this summer so hopefully we get that and then the state house path um we we are working on with uh buildings and grounds on our MOU for the walking path because uh it's 23 years old um and then concurrently there's a forest management plan being done for that parcel that has to fit into the MOU and then concurrently we're doing the trail design for this downhill mountain bike trail that would be parallel to the existing path um so they're all kind of working at different speeds but um BGS is the gatekeeper for all of that so um we need to work our way through BGS and capital complex commission with all of those pieces and then ultimately yeah bring it to the parks commission to say this is what they've approved how does this fit into the you know the public plan um and is that entirely on the state land or also on the park's land um it's on the state land um the the downhill mountain bike trail or the walking path the mountain bike trail yeah it's on the state land until you know there would have to be that little trail that sort of like goes down behind the tower like it's I consider a part of the state house path but it's like in yeah basically it's all on state land is the short answer there's a couple feet in the park but yeah you yeah yeah and then who's funding the design for both of the trails the vorac program okay you actually got a vorac agreement signed no they're claiming you can bill for expenses before you sign the grant so I'm taking them at their word yeah yeah everybody's doing that fingers crossed yeah right yeah um cool well that's exciting and the gov community garden since you didn't read it emily that's the little community garden that's out by like route 12 on your way out of town it sounds like the city is lined up to purchase that where's that it's actually being donated it's actually being donated by the owner and the city the the fees are just for lawyer basically legal fees where is that it's on elm street like out past where pearl street motors used to be yeah that little community garden oh oh oh yeah yeah oh that's great yeah that's great so that will be part of the parks too or no no um I mean it'll be public access and all that but it'll be managed by the community garden cool yeah and I was sorry to read at the end that the city will be looking for a new arborist yeah yeah that's a sad ending yep yeah it's very unfortunate but it's good to have you know a path forward to for everybody well um any other questions on the staff update that you may or may not have read no I think but with with Donna here I think we should recommend to the city council and the manager that Ella gets a big raise you won't you won't get it but we should recommend it yeah I think the budget's locked in all right everybody well thank you so much um for another extra long meeting um and Stephanie I know oh you are gone for our meeting next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday February 21st from 6 to 8 p.m again hybrid that is our usual parks meeting time and Stephanie you're going to miss it um I am wondering um I've heard back from some commissioners but wanted to see if Wednesday um sorry is it Thursday morning well either Tuesday or Wednesday morning at 10 a.m would work for a brief parks commission meeting to essentially probably just like 15 20 minutes to finalize and adopt the management plan oh wouldn't it be Wednesday or Thursday Wednesday or Thursday it should be the 22nd or the 23rd first for me either those days um I think the 23rd would be better for me okay either one works for me yeah I mean I can do that it will have to be brief we tend to start I mean I'll be that'll be 8 a.m uh where I am um and we tend to start work pretty early I think you said it was going to be seven was it seven okay then that should be fine I mean still like a half less than a half hour ideally so if we check time zones and it is fact 8 a.m is 9 a.m on February 23rd also okay with everybody okay so we're gonna aim for 7 a.m where Stephanie is which we think is 10 a.m yes it is 10 a.m okay okay thank you so February 23rd at 10 a.m um and Lincoln could not be in person on that day I'm wondering if we can have a volunteer to be in person on February 23rd at 10 a.m I I can do it I can do it is that Alec yeah yeah that's me do we need a commissioner to actually be in person oh that's a good question I think we may need a you can still you can have 100% remote meeting oh but you do have to have it recorded but you have work to hear Donna we were under the impression that that law expired and was not extended no no you're still allowed to be fully remote um you mean Lincoln's been going to all these meetings in person when he could have been remote I think there's great value in the in person and Alex has been told differently was supposed to check it because public safety authority is stayed 100% remote okay so we'll figure out an error so I'll check it too all right well we'll figure out that detail but the moral of the story is that our next meeting will be February 21st which is a Tuesday from 6 p.m to 8 p.m and then followed by um February 23rd which is a Wednesday at 10 a.m um that's a Thursday I'm sorry a Thursday I was trying to clarify okay um I think we've had enough for the evening I believe we are ready to adjourn Sasha thank you for leading the discussion I really appreciate all the public everything everybody had such great things to say yeah thank you yeah all right have a good night everybody thanks so much guys bye