It is now time for oral questions, the member from Nipisi. Thank you very much, Speaker. My question this morning is for the Premier. Premier, last night on TV you apparently apologized for the gas plant scandal. My question is, what did you apologize for? Are you sorry for not listening to the residents of Mississauga and Oakville? Are you sorry for building power plants in residential neighborhoods? Are you sorry for paying companies not to build power plants? Are you sorry for buying five liberal seats with $585 million? Are you sorry for destroying documents and keeping the truth from Ontarians? Or are you just sorry you got caught? Minister of Energy, come to order. Minister Durham, come to order. The member from Durham will withdraw. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would have thought that there might have been a bit of a preamble to that question, Mr. Speaker, that would have said something like, you know, you did the right thing, Premier. We've been asking for an apology, and the opposite said, and so I will just say what I said last night, Mr. Speaker. I believe that it was important for me as the Premier in this chair now to say that I apologize, and I'm sorry for the process as it unfolded, Mr. Speaker. I'm sorry that the decision was made in the first place to locate those plants where they were located, Mr. Speaker, and I'm sorry it caused so much to undo that. Thank you. Well, Premier, I'll give you a little history. The Liberals failed to win a majority which would have covered your tracks. There would have been no scandal hearings. When we tried to get to the truth... Remember the Minister of Energy had come to order? Next time it is, you have to be quick. The Liberals parod this House, then redacted, deleted and destroyed documents that would have gotten us to that truth. Now your political advisers have all told you that every one of those delay strategies have failed. So the next move is to concoct a political apology. You're sorry you got caught. Premier, Ontarians want more than a hollow apology. They want a refund. Will you order the... Minister of Community and Social Services come to order. The member from Bruce Grio and Sound come to order. Premier. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. You know, I really believe that my primary political relationship is with the people of Ontario. And Mr. Speaker, I was speaking to the people of Ontario yesterday, Mr. Speaker, and since I have been in this role, I have been as open and as transparent as I could possibly be, Mr. Speaker. I answered questions at committee. I made sure that we opened up the process so that all the questions could be asked, so that all the documents that were asked for could be provided, Mr. Speaker. That has happened. We have heard many perspectives at the committee, Mr. Speaker, and I believe that it was important for me to take that personal responsibility. And I have done that. Member from Bruce Grio and Sound come to order. I really believe that the committee can continue to ask questions and continue to do its due diligence, Mr. Speaker. But I have taken responsibility now to put in place a process that will ensure that this will not happen again. Final supplementary. Thank you, Speaker. Premier, it would have been a lot better for Ontarians if you did something about this scandal back in 2011 when you first saw the documents in cabinet. You knew this was a bad deal back then, and you could have stopped this from ever happening. But your late apology comes with consequences. If you're really sincere, you'd arrange for the Liberal Party to pay back the money. If you're really sorry, you'd order your Liberal witnesses to return to the committee and tell the truth this time. And you would stand here and answer the pivotal question in this scandal. When did you know the costs were more than you publicly stated? If you're not prepared to, Premier, then call our confidence motion and let this House decide if your apology was sincere. Speaker, while I'm glad that the member opposite... Excuse me. The member from Cambridge will come to order. Premier. Mr. Speaker, I'm glad the member opposite mentioned confidence, Mr. Speaker, because it really is important now. I believe that we have this discussion about the budget, because the budget is the... It is the confidence issue that is before this House, Mr. Speaker, that will have a direct impact on the lives of people in Ontario. I have visited a couple of manufacturing companies in the last couple of days, Mr. Speaker, and they are very happy about the measures that we have in the budget that will support their purchase of new equipment and new technology and will support young people getting the training, the skills training that they need in order to be able to work in their businesses. That's the kind of measurement, Mr. Speaker, that needs to be in place. That's why we need the budget to pass. So I look forward to a debate on the budget and getting the budget passed, Mr. Speaker. There you should be. New question. The member from the team, Carlton. She is as well to the Premier. For a number of months in this House and in the committee room, we asked you to apologize to the people of Ontario and only last night when you decided to seek absolution from a taxpayer-funded journalist, did you offer that? Did your apology for the Liberal seat-saving plan that cost Ontario families hundreds of millions of dollars for thwarting democracy include saying sorry for co-chairing the Liberal campaign team that made the crass political decision to cost taxpayer dollars? Did it include you signing a memorandum to cabinet that you either did not understand or chose to withhold from the public? Sorry for not telling Ontarians that you knew the true cause or higher than $40 million. Are you sorry that you were hiding from calling the PC confidence motion or was your Steve Pake and climbed down a PR stunt? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So, I've answered a lot of the issues that the member opposite raised. I went to committee, I answered all the questions that were asked of you, Mr. Speaker. And, you know, again, the member opposite is one of her voices, one of the voices that has been calling for taking a personal responsibility. And I did that last night, Mr. Speaker. I made it clear that I take personal responsibility, that I'm sorry about the mistakes that our government made, Mr. Speaker. And we have said that there were mistakes made. We have said that the process is not what it should have been and that those gas plants should not have been located where they were in the first place. We need a process going forward that will make sure that doesn't happen again, Mr. Speaker. And that is what I apologize for last night. This has been an interesting PR exercise, but, Speaker, you are well aware that my colleagues and I have asked 130 times what this Premier knew when she knew it, when that cost ballooned well past $40 million. And she has refused over 130 times to offer that.  Now, Speaker, we on this side of the house suspect that that Premier refused... Order. Finish, please. I think I touched on her, Speaker, but I suspect she refuses to acknowledge what she knew and when she knew it, because she will be held in contempt of parliament if she isn't a true Premier that your... Minister of Training, College of the University has come to order. Away from this scandal, and Speaker and Premier, if you were truly sorry for scamming Ontario out of hundreds of millions of dollars... Thank you. Seated, please. And while the clock has stopped, I would remind this member and all members when I stand, you sit. And if you don't look at me, that's not my responsibility. Member, come to order. Premier. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. And I just want to make a commentary on the political environment that we operate in, because I think it is... I understand why the member opposite would talk about PR, but I honestly believe that the frame that she is putting around what I said last night says more about her than it does about me, Mr. Speaker. It actually does. Do this job in the best way that I can. And I think I could, Mr. Speaker, to open up this process. I continued to get calls from people of Ontario who said, you know, we want to see that personal responsibility taken. That's what I did last night, Mr. Speaker. It had nothing to do with public relations. It had nothing to do with the political stunt. It had to do with me taking personal responsibility. And whether the member's opposite, believe that or not, it's really immaterial, Mr. Speaker. I did what I knew I needed to do. Final supplementary. She needed to say she was sorry to the public because her PR stunt is the only thing that's going to move her past this and divert attention from the matter at hand, which is she's come to this house repeatedly and said that this cost $40 million when she knew for a very long period of time it wasn't. She came to committee, evaded 11 questions from me at that moment, and another 29 from my colleague from Nipissing. I will say this, Speaker. This is a minister, this is a premier who has spent hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money in order to save liberal MPPCs. She decided to go to a taxpayer-funded journalist last night with a script to stage a PR campaign so she could distract the public from telling the truth. If she's saying sorry really means what she didn't say, she would know that she needs to call the Ontario P.C. contempt motion to the floor of this house, not only for debate, but for a vote, and for a speaker that she should bring a judicial requirement. Senator, please. Senator, please. Premier. Well, I think we should come to the defense of Steve Payton over here, actually, and TV on the institution, Mr. Speaker, but quite a part from that. Let me just talk about the confidence motion that is before us, because clearly the members opposite want to have the opportunity to vote on a confidence motion. The budget is the confidence motion, Mr. Speaker, that I believe is extremely relevant to the lives of people in Ontario. There are measures in the budget, Mr. Speaker, that will create jobs in this province and that will deal with issues that will affect people in their day-to-day lives. I look forward to that debate, Mr. Speaker. I look forward to seeing that budget pass because I believe that we need to get on with the business of that. Just what I said, creating jobs and making changes that will affect people's day-to-day jobs. That's what our confidence motion is about. Thank you. Question. Thank you, Speaker. My question is to the Premier. As the Premier knows, we'll be sitting down this afternoon and I've been clear with the public. I'm waiting for two parties to tone it down. I'm not asking for extra comments. Leader. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That was an unexpected bit of excitement there for a minute. Nonetheless, I've been clear with the public that it's going to be an open and transparent process that we engage in. So I'm going to ask this question in public, Speaker. Is the Premier ready to move forward with measures that are going to make this government more transparent and more accountable? Premier. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We will have a good conversation this afternoon. Terms of endearment take different points. We'll be sitting down with the leader of the third party and having a conversation about the suggestions that she has made. I will just say, Mr. Speaker, I'm not going to comment on the specifics because that's why I think we need to have a face-to-face meeting. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe that finding ways for government to be more accountable and making sure that we do everything we can to be accountable that absolutely is what I would like to talk with the leader of the third party about, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Well, I'm pleased to hear that, Speaker, because Ontarians are the people who actually want to be hopeful in this process. They want to see real change that makes the government more transparent and more accountable to them, Speaker. After all, the government is here for them, not the other way around. Yesterday, the Premier finally apologized for the gas plant scandal, but it is a day late in the buck short. The money has already been wasted and the scandal has already happened and it never happens again, Speaker. I hope we all agree in this chamber that Ontarians deserve better. Will the Premier agree that her government needs to be more accountable and transparent and new Democrats are proposing effective ways of doing just that? Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. And I look forward to that meeting that we're going to have this afternoon. And I think that accountability is an evolving it's an evolving reality and we have, in fact, as a government put in a number of accountability measures, Mr. Speaker, that I think were necessary. So in 2010, the broader Public Sector Accountability Act that put new rules and higher standards in place in terms of lobbyists, Mr. Speaker, we put those rules in place when we were newly elected, Mr. Speaker, in 2004, the Fiscal Transparency and Accountability Act put in place a framework for the conduct of fiscal policy. So we have put those measures in place, Mr. Speaker, but there is always more that a government can do to explore where accountability gaps exist. And, you know, I know that will be part of our conversation this afternoon. Thank you, final supplementary. Speaker, families want to have confidence in the future. They don't want to be waiting for the next scandal and then waiting for the next apology. A financial accountability office will give families assurance that they won't be wasted. Ontarians want to see transparency and accountability. Will the Premier agree that creating a financial accountability office is actually the right thing to do? So, Mr. Speaker, I would say to the Leader of the Third Party let's talk about that this afternoon. Let's talk about what some of the specifics of her suggestions are so that I can understand better where she's coming from and whether the suggestions are prudent, whether they can actually be implemented. Mr. Speaker, we need to have a face-to-face meeting. I'm glad we're finally able to have it, Mr. Speaker, because I do believe that people want to see they want to see government working. They want to see the parties in this legislature working together. I have heard that over and over and over again that people want to see us realize and understand that we're in a minority parliament and that it is our responsibility to work together. So I appreciate the willingness of the Leader of the Third Party to now sit down and have this conversation. Let's hear a new question. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My last question is also for the Premier. Ontarians have told us over the last week or so that they wanted to see fairness, balance and transparency. They want to have faith in a health care system, making sure that it will be there for them when they need it and for their loved ones as well. But they've seen a system instead that's rocked by scandals and waste speaker and haven't had anyone to turn to in that process. They want to know that someone will always be in their corner. Someone who's an independent and who will stick up for them. Someone exactly like the Ombudsman Speaker. Will the Premier make the health care system more accountable and allow the Ombudsman to have oversight in our health care system? Again, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to having that conversation this afternoon with the Leader of the Third Party because it is one of the suggestions that she has made. But I would just say that there are a number of accountability mechanisms that already exist within government. And one of the pieces that one of the things I'd like to talk with the Leader of the Third Party about is how we might be able to tighten up or improve those accountability mechanisms that already exist because they're there and I think that we need to come to some kind of agreement on whether they can be improved or not. That's one of the things that I would like to put on the table as we have our conversation this afternoon, Mr. Speaker because I do believe, as I said earlier, there is always room for improvement. So let's look at what's already there. Let's see if those things can be improved because I like the Leader of the Third Party, believe that accountability is an expectation of the people of Ontario and we need to do everything we can to be accountable for our actions. Mr. Speaker, I have three things to say to the Premier's comments about accountability of the Liberal Government thus far in Ontario. E-Health Orange and the Gas Plan. People are told us for the last week and a bit that they are tired of not being able to trust that their government is going to use their money wisely and prudently and for their needs instead of the government's needs or the Liberal Party's needs. They told us they want to see some fairness in this budget as well. They see a government handing a brand new $1.3 billion tax loophole to corporations while Ontarians are told that they're going to get $300 million on a bill to start tolling our carpool lanes. Does the Premier think that that's a fair solution to fund transit and transportation infrastructure? Thank you very much Mr. Speaker. I as the Leader of the Third Party know that the Minister of Finance is in communication with the Federal Minister of Finance on the issue around the corporate tax regime and we understand that needs to be that's something that we need to work on with the Federal Government. So that's one of the things that I want to talk to the Leader of the Third Party about. What is doable? What exactly is doable in terms of the provincial government's jurisdiction and the possibilities that we have to make changes? Because I can't make a commitment either in public or in private to do something that we don't have jurisdiction over. What we commit to has to be doable and has to be prudent. Which is why Mr. Speaker, in our budget we have tackled some of the issues that she raised in terms of auto insurance and the healthcare accountability Mr. Speaker. We've tackled those things in a way that's prudent and that we can actually deliver on. Thank you. Final supplementary. Well I hope there are some negotiations happening with the Federal Government because it wasn't in the budget to get rid of that $1.3 billion upcoming corporate tax loophole. There was a last minute letter from the Finance Minister to the Federal Finance Minister. That's not good enough for Ontarian Speaker. It doesn't show a real commitment. New Democrats ask Ontarians what they thought of the budget and what they told us is that it can stand to be improved. Particularly on accountability measures Speaker. They're tired of broken promises. They're tired of wasted money. Is the Premier going to listen to Ontarians and add much needed accountability and transparency to this budget? Thank you Mr. Speaker. I look forward to our conversation this afternoon and Mr. Speaker I have been listening to the people of Ontario and will continue to do that Mr. Speaker because I really believe that is how good policy gets made. I think it's very important that politicians, all of us listen to the people in our writings listen to the people across the province about their concerns and that's what our budget reflects Mr. Speaker. There's been a lot of talk about where the ideas for the budget came from. They came from Mr. Speaker the concerns of the people of the province and those concerns are about jobs making sure that people's children have jobs and that people themselves can find their way into the economy Mr. Speaker and those concerns about their everyday lives making sure that the issues that affect them on a day-to-day basis like the provision of health care for their parents and their grandparents for our parents and grandparents making sure that people get the home care the health care that they need in a timely way. Those are the things that people talk to about us about Mr. Speaker and there was common ground with the third party and there was common ground I believe with the official opposition that's why I hope we can get this budget passed and we can start to implement those measures Mr. Speaker. Thank you. My question is to the Premier the Premier the gas plant fiasco is the biggest scandal in Ontario's history now Premier you've tried the Danado you've tried the cover-up game you've tried the blame game and now you've put your question please. Yes Premier you've tried the blame game you've tried the cover-up game you've tried the apology game and I'm asking you to show some integrity and do the honourable thing. Excuse me there was a word used there that is unparliamentary and I ask you to withdraw. Draw that single word. Yes I ask you to do the honourable thing right in the camera Premier and tell the people of Ontario either yes the scandal deserves a vote to you to hold a confidence vote in this house or no I refuse to let the people of Ontario hold the Liberal government accountable Premier please tell the people of Ontario it's a very simple question yes or no. Mr. Speaker I want to assure the member and indeed assure all members of this house I guarantee you Mr. Speaker in the next several weeks there will be a confidence motion in this house we will be bringing forward the budget motion which is a matter of confidence and members will have a chance to both debate and vote on it but Mr. Speaker to the first part of the honourable members question I go back to some of the comments I made yesterday could he explain to us why when the Liberal government when the Liberal party decided in the last election to promise the cancellation of the gas plants according to them it was the worst thing to have ever be fallen western civilization but Mr. Speaker when the leader of the opposition made the exact same promise it was somehow okay and why Mr. Speaker when the leader of the opposition appeared in front of committee yesterday he would not even deign to explain the difference between the two positions thank you supplementary so back to the Premier Premier in your speech from the phone and your cabinet ministers will be accountable to the people of Ontario it boggles my mind Speaker that any member of this house could prop up this scandal plague government in such good in good conscience Premier once again I ask you will you call on this assembly to debate our want of confidence motion so that once and for all we can deal with this here truly and truly restore accountability in Ontario Mr. Speaker you want to talk about accountability let's review the facts the new Premier came into office one of her first actions was to ask the auditor general to look into the Oakville situation the second thing she did is she proposed a select committee of the legislature excuse me a special committee of the legislature look into it Mr. Speaker that party said no because they wanted to have a witch hunt over a former member of the legislature she produced 56,000 pages of documents and offered to have a wide search throughout government for more documents and that party and the NDP party voted against him Mr. Speaker she appeared in front of committee when asked and answered all the questions and we saw the leader of the opposition had to practically be dragged there invited over and over again and refused to answer any questions 28 times Mr. Speaker we asked him simple questions so he would not come forward with any answers Mr. Speaker so long a license to that New question the member from Trinity to Dina to the Premier the government is refusing to share basic information with Ontarians about its scheme to Toe Highways the Minister of Finance says it will cost it says Toes will generate 250 to 300 million while Metrolinx says it will generate 25 million and the Minister of Transportation won't tell us anything no one in government will say how much it will cost to build the lanes where the lanes will be or what the toll will cost or whether this expensive scheme will actually break even why won't your government be open about the basic elements of this risky and costly tolling scheme Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker I really do believe my friend is asking questions with the best of intentions but I'd like to direct him to the Metrolinx website where on that website you can actually see the entire cost Metrolinx has carefully planned out which routes are optimal Metrolinx is actually can tell you that the price per kilometer is 47 cents you can also read today's Toronto Star which points out that the very successful HOT lanes Mr. Speaker across North America are used mostly by people with under $60,000 of that $60,000 income this has been a benefit to middle income families especially moms who are trying to get their kids to work it's a very cost effective option and it's been a significant impact on reducing congestion Mr. Speaker this is hardly something used by only affluent people Mr. Speaker to not compromise the role of HOV lanes one I owe to Mr. Speaker supplementary the experience of tolling high occupancy lanes in other places is that the cost of construction and enforcement is high while the revenues generated are low in many areas these lanes have lost money or have struggled to break even I think the minister knows that and just last month we learned that the new HOV lanes in Los Angeles had actually increased overall congestion I also think the minister knows that as well why is the government committing to an expensive and risky scheme that is not a serious revenue too for transit without providing any reason at all to think that it will work Mr. Speaker we have right now well into construction the biggest transportation transit build out in the history of Ontario soon Mr. Speaker the boring machines on Eglinton will be pulled out and people all across north and central Toronto will be able to whisk across the city efficiently in some of the most beautiful LRTs and subways ever Mr. Speaker in Durham region just the other day Mr. Anderson and I launched the BRT system from Durham from Oshawa to the Scarborough campus of U of T for now people all across the eastern GTA and Ajax and Pickering can now get their kids to school Mr. Speaker we have two way all day go service every half hour on the Lakeshire line ending the bedroom communities and ending the subways being the spoke in Toronto sub thank you new question well thank you Mr. Speaker my question is for the minister of health and long term care regular mammograms are the best way to detect breast cancer and yesterday I heard in the news that a study by cancer care Ontario researchers found that one type of digital mammography called digital computed radiography is less effective than other types of mammograms as a woman I'm concerned about these findings and women across Ontario should be able to rely on the most effective technology to detect breast cancer Mr. Speaker could the minister tell us how the situation is being addressed thank you I would like to thank the member from York Southwest for this question breast cancer is a disease that affects too many of us too many of our mothers our daughters and our friends Speaker those women deserve nothing but the best possible care the decisions we make in health care are guided by the best available evidence speaker scientific evidence is always emerging that guides our decisions about what we need to do to improve our medical practices so there is new evidence speaker recommendations by our cancer cancer experts so we are updating the technology that we use for breast cancer screening we are investing $25 million to replace computed radiography devices with direct radiography devices across the province this will ensure that women will continue to get the most effective screening for breast cancer using the best technology available I want to say thank you to the researcher Dr. Anna Shirelli at Cancer Care Ontario who conducted this groundbreaking study speaker to provide better care for women Thank you Mr. Speaker this issue needs to be taken seriously and addressed with strong action as the ministry is doing breast cancer is a deadly disease and early detection is key if a woman learns she has breast cancer she needs to be reassured that the health care system will be there with her in her fight against cancer she needs to be reassured of the way through you Mr. Speaker to the minister can women across Ontario who suffer from breast cancer be sure that they will get the best quality care good question I share the members commitment to ensuring that women with breast cancer are given the support they need to beat this disease Ontario is a leader in cancer care we are diagnosed with breast cancer in Ontario are alive and well five years later in an Ontario who gets cancer has one of the best chances of survival anywhere in the world according to the cancer system it is a result of our government's commitment to cancer care we've tripled funding for cancer fighting drugs under the new funding new drug funding program and we're funding 49 additional drugs for indications we've cut wait times for cancer surgery and last year 97% of Ontario's cancer patients started radiation within the four week national target new question Mr. Speaker my question is for the premier this afternoon the house will debate and vote upon our opposition day motion which if passed and if the government respects the will of the house would require the government house leader to call our non-confidence motion for debate and a vote on May the 28th an affirmative vote by the house today should compel the government to abide by hundreds of years of parliamentary tradition and explicitly and directly test the confidence that this house has in the government if our motion passes this afternoon can the premier commit to respecting the will of this house Mr. Speaker I have a couple of points the first is I want to confirm to the member as I did to his colleague that this legislature will be dealing with a confidence motion in the next several weeks when we deal with the budget motion and Mr. Speaker God willing will also be dealing with the budget bill at various stages and that too will be a confidence motion so we should not be worried there will be plenty of confidence motions in terms of the what we have here in the legislature I thought the member should be very very aware that section 44 of the standing orders outlines a process by which the motion he's referring to can be brought forward and Mr. Speaker that's not based on hundreds of years of parliamentary tradition that's actually a change to the standing orders that was brought in by the progressive conservatives when they were in power Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker back to the premier the government cannot evade responsibility either they respect the will of the house or they don't there can be no weasel words there is no middle ground this is the parliament of Ontario 13 days have passed since the budget speech and we're still waiting for the NDP to make up their minds they may very well sit on their hands again and allow the budget to pass as they did last year but a budget motion is a confidence motion only as it pertains to the budgetary policy of the government in a comprehensive sense if our motion passes today the government cannot ignore the will of the house and still claim legitimacy to govern if the confidence question is still outstanding will the premier do the right thing if our motion passes this afternoon and call our non-confidence motion for debate and a vote on May the 28th thank you I'm kind of enjoying this debate over parliamentary procedure here and the simple fact of the matter is government that can't pass its budget cannot govern so therefore it is naturally a confidence motion and again I assure the member that we will have a vote on that motion within the prescribed period that's outlined in the standing order as I say Mr. Speaker if everything goes the right way we hope to have subsequent votes of the legislation that accompanies it in terms of the want of confidence issue that he's put forward Mr. Member to look at section 44 the standing orders which outlines the process by which it could be brought forward to the legislature and as I say Mr. Speaker they are not our rules they are rules that were brought forward by the progressive conservatives when they were in power thank you very much Mr. Speaker my question is to the premier it is absolutely clear that this government's OLG privatization plan is in chaos Ontarians want to know is Toronto getting a special deal to host a downtown casino or isn't it this government doesn't seem to know Ontarians want to know our OLG casino is going to be turned over to global gambling operators this government doesn't seem to know will this government admit that it's OLG privatization strategy is a total mess and scrap this misguided plan once and for all thank you Mr. Speaker and I appreciate the question the member opposite has reaffirmed the need to transform the way we do business with the OLG recognizing the tremendous amount of contributions it brings to produce and initiate more schools more hospitals to afford social programs we need to ensure that the operation of the OLG is managed in an appropriate fashion to maximize the value of taxpayers that's exactly what we're doing supplementary this time to the minister I guess the OLG and its own hand-picked government's own hand-picked CEO invited global gambling operators to bid on a downtown Toronto casino and floated the idea of a sweetheart deal on the hosting formula to City Council to cement that deal these companies in turn made it clear that if they weren't going to get a downtown site and own the operation they weren't coming to Ontario the question with a crucial vote coming up at Toronto City Council next week will the government finally come clean on its plans for a downtown Toronto casino and let the people and the council know in advance Minister so Mr. Speaker the council have before them an opportunity to make a decision they recognize and it's up to the council it's up to the municipality to make that decision the province has made it clear that we won't provide any special deals to any specific municipality we're going to be equal, we're going to be fair it's going to be the same formula across the province it's up to the council for them an option and a determination if they want a proponent to bring in billions of dollars in new construction to the City of Toronto that will be up to them in terms of the formula it will be determined, it will be the same it will be equal for the entire province thank you Mr. Speaker my question is to the Attorney Channel Mr. Speaker as we all know in the stage of technology and contribute to economic growth over the past few years field realtors and the directors of Ms. Saga and Brempton real estate boards requested that the government use the electronic tools for their business transactions as part of 2013 budget our government has proposed an amendment to the electronic commerce act extending the act to land transactions Mr. Speaker could the AG elaborate on the proposed amendment and how it would benefit Ontario businesses good idea thank you Attorney General thank you Mr. Speaker and I want to thank the hard working member for Ms. Saga and Brempton south for the question she has really been a hard working member I can tell you the government supports the use of electronic communications for the reasons of both efficiency and economy and that's why we've introduced the legislation as part of the 2013 budget bill and I know the member of Prince Edward Hastings is interested in it as well and he will vote for the budget bill I'm absolutely convinced we want to extend that to the electronic commerce act to land transactions as well we believe that these land transactions would if the legislation is passed benefit from the standards and rules for electronic communications that have worked so well for the last dozen years or so in so many other areas it will benefit businesses as well as consumers in Ontario and in particular those involved in the real estate industry and that's because we know that the real estate industry in Ontario has been requesting this change for some time and it's time to do it by passing the budget Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker I thank the Attorney General for elaborating on the proposed amendment it's a good news for Ontario realtors but also for the consumers this amendment will allow use of the electronic tools to conduct business efficiently and conveniently Mr. Speaker through you to the Attorney General are there any other ways in which this government is helping our real estate sector in the province of Ontario Thank you Attorney General I know the Minister of Consumer Services looks forward to answering this part of the question Minister of Consumer Services Mr. Speaker I'm very happy to inform the member that we do in fact have legislation in front of the house right now that aims to do just what she's asking just like the budget we've tabled there is a another bill called bill 55 to help people their everyday lives and it's called our stronger protection for Ontario consumers act and bill 55 proposes make changes to the real estate sector to promote a more fair and transparent marketplace under this proposed bill we'll make it easier for buyers and professionals to verify the actual number of written offers were made in competitive real estate bidding process as well as allow real estate professionals greater options and flexibility in delivering the services they offer bill 55 and the amendments proposed in the budget relating to electronic signatures that the Attorney General referred to the type of legislation that helps Ontarians really encourage all members of the part of the legislation to support both thank you a question to the Premier in just a few days Ontarians will get together with friends and family and fire up the barbeque and open up the cottage on Victoria Day long weekend as well many tourists will be travelling to Ontario to visit over 1500 special events across the province and enjoy the best that this province has to offer this includes Ontario's wonderful wine, beer and spirits however a dark cloud looms threatening to put a damper and all this an impending LCBO strike the union has engaged in an aggressive ad campaign demanding more of their work more for their workers Premier with LCBO stores all carrying Ontario beer, wine and spirits how in good conscience could this government let an impending strike occur imperiling Ontario's tourism and beverage industry on one of Ontario's favourite holidays thank you so Mr. Speaker we have a situation where the LCBO and the employees are negotiating collective agreement and it's appropriate and prudent for them to initiate and have those discussions and will allow them to proceed and I'm hopeful that in the end they'll come to an agreement and that we're all going to be able to enjoy a great long weekend thank you well Premier given you and your government's record of buying public sector union support with massive wage increases and perks at the expense of Ontario's fiscal future isn't no wonder we are yet again held hostage in the 11th hour by a union demanding more this is something you've brought upon yourself Premier public sector compensation is out of control and Ontario's broken arbitration system is putting Ontario taxpayers at further risk while your government's budgets have earned us nothing but credit downgrades our PC plan for sustainable public sector compensation is clearly the only way forward will the Premier side with Ontarians for their Victoria Day weekend and their future by preventing a strike freezing public sector compensation by legislation for a two year period Minister of Finance Minister of Labor thank you very much Speaker I thank the member for the question I think the member opposite very well knows how our labor relations system works in this province it is the responsibility Speaker of the employer and the trade union to be able to come together to negotiate a settlement agreement Speaker we also know that the best agreements are the ones which are negotiated that are bargaining on the table and we encourage both parties this is not helpful both sides including the third party answer please Speaker we encourage both parties to continue to work hard I know they are negotiating the government is focused on assisting the parties in reaching a settlement I'm very happy to report Speaker that our highly skilled mediators from the Ministry of Labor have met the parties on 19 different occasions to help them come to a settlement and I'm hopeful and confident that a settlement will be reached by the CBO and the union Thank you Speaker Thank you Speaker to the Premier Northwestern Ontario is struggling economically for years we've been looking to this government to support job growth and economic development one project that could have a major impact resulting in the investment of $700 million and 500 permanent full-time jobs is the Rainy River Gold project but far from supporting this investment this government is needlessly delaying it by almost two months by being almost two months late with approving the terms of reference why is this government not doing everything in its power to promote job growth in Northwestern Ontario Minister of Northern Development Mines Mr. Speaker we are very proud of the great record we have in terms of the Northern Ontario growth plan let alone the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund where we have provided over the last 10 years $824 million in investments creating or retaining 22,000 jobs in Northern Ontario and I can tell you we're obviously very excited about the opportunities returning to the forestry sector as we see a transforming of that sector looking to the opportunities in the mining sector not just simply the Ring of Fire as exciting as that is but also the other developments as well working closely with all the industry and certainly this continues to be a priority for us we were pleased to be a phenomenal last week the Federation of Northern Ontario Municipalities to speak about how keen we are to continue to move forward with our economic vision for Northern Ontario and delighted to look forward to your supplementary Thank you Supplementary This is about the Rainy River Gold Project this company has done everything right it is engaged with First Nations and communities from the start this delay in approving the terms of reference is in part ministry incompetence and partly the result of this Liberal government's cuts to the minister of the environment a ministry whose budget has fallen by 45% in real terms since the 1990s and according to the Environmental Commissioner of Ontario lacks the basic resources to do its job if this government is serious about job growth and job creation it needs to ensure that the government resources are in place to foster that growth this is not happening and this company needs its terms of reference approved by May 17th when will the minister finally sign off so that these badly needed and wanted jobs can move ahead Our students thank you Minister of the Environment Speaker the member may wish to consult with her environmental critic and perhaps with the member for Danforth member for Davenport on the importance on the importance of giving a full assessment of all the environmental implications of any of these developments I know the member is eager to see it moving forward but her party surely would want to make sure that all of the environmental considerations have been given I have given this personally very high attention as well and I'm one who is always optimistic I must say but I do think it's important for the new democratic party to as it once did be very concerned about the environmental implications of any development that happens to take place anywhere in this province so we will have that opportunity to get full evaluation of it and in appropriate time I'm sure that the necessary approvals Thank you Thank you Thank you Mr. Speaker Thank you For from Renfrew knows what I'm going to say In her capacity as the Minister of Agriculture and Food Speaker the agri-food industry is one of the largest industries in Ontario not only does it employ over 700,000 people but it provides $34 billion to our GDP The agri-food industry is composed of a large part of farmers the men and women who till the fields plant the crops and feed nutrients another component important to the agri-food industry and should be recognized on this is the food processing sector the success of the productivity of food processing is vital Speaker can the Minister please tell us what our recent budget will do to increase the productivity in the food processing industry Thank you very much Mr. Speaker and thank you to the member from Ajax Pickering for the question and he accurately portrays Mr. Speaker the importance of the food processing industry to Ontario and I think it's not well understood generally Mr. Speaker that this is a $34 billion industry It's a major economic driver creating jobs improving the economy and supporting our producers and we believe it's important to support and to contribute to our food processing industry which is why Mr. Speaker the 2013 budget which we would love to see passed the proposal to extend the capital cost allowance for manufacturing and for processing machinery and equipment Mr. Speaker this will have a direct impact on the food processing industry and this measure will reduce the Ontario tax on manufacturing and processing equipment by $265 million Mr. Speaker over the course of the next two fiscal years and that will support our effort to increase productivity Mr. Speaker New supplementary Thank you Mr. Speaker Premier the men and women who work in the food processing sector will be happy to hear that this continues to support everyone in the agri-food industry In my writing of Ajax Pickering there will be a number of food processors that can benefit from the extension of the capital cost allowance Mr. Speaker these same food processors have addressed a concern for red tape while ensuring that food safety is maintained duplication in the process can stand in the way of the success of these Ontario companies Mr. Speaker can the minister Premier of agriculture and food please update the House on what our government is intending to do to reduce red tape that exists in this industry Thank you very much Mr. Speaker and I have heard this concern from producers and processors Mr. Speaker and that's exactly why the open for business round table was created the round table asks for input from producers and processors on how we can work together to find more ways to clear the path for business success The round table actually met last week Mr. Speaker to discuss the priorities of the sector both processors and producers were at the table and there were a number of other ministries which is important for other ministries to hear the concerns about the agri-food business Mr. Speaker it was a productive conversation I was very pleased to be part of that conversation and it's important that we continue to work together because that's where the solutions are found when we check in with each other we find out what's actually happening on the ground so that we can foster the innovation and productivity that's needed in the sector Thank you, new question The member for Melton Mill, section 1 Thank you Mr. Speaker My question to the Minister of Education is about a young girl in my riding named Hope Hawkins who is hearing impaired Hope will be entering grade 8 next year which is a crucier development for as one transitions into high school Unfortunately she'll be the only grade 8 student in her class at Robert School for the Deaf in London due to a declining enrollment Hope has recently been accepted to the Ernest Jury School in Deaf in Milton She wants to attend the school for grade 8 before entering high school but she has been denied transportation services because she lives three minutes outside the ministry's 70 minute threshold It has already been agreed that Hope will receive transportation when she starts grade 9 A public school is not a good option for Hope EAs and support workers must be hired special equipment must be provided and it's environment full of stigma Hope has attempted this route three times before and the educational experience she received has not been ideal Minister, could you direct the provincial superintendent to approve Hope's request to receive the transportation services in the upcoming year Congratulations Yes, thank you very much and obviously I'm not familiar with this particular issue and we it always is difficult when a student needs to be transported to one of the provincial schools and trying to make those arrangements I think that perhaps in this instance it would be best if we could get some more information about the particular case and then we'll endeavour to see if we can find a resolution Thank you, supplementary Hope received more information She's hit so many roadblocks on trying just to get to a school where she can be with her peers Minister, I've met with many constituents who deal with the black and white nature of some of these government's rules and regulations We need to understand the needs for rules and guidelines but the inflexibility in a situation bespeaks to a failure of delivery of central services This situation takes nothing more than a little common sense and I hope to get it resolved I hope that we cannot be beholden to the bureaucratic rules and do the right thing in this situation Can you let me know soon whether Hope will receive the transportation services to the transfer Thank you, speaker and if we could if we could get the information fairly quickly and get some contact information for the individual student because we obviously will need to talk to the individual families involved to get the accurate information then I will certainly be very happy to have my ministry look at the situation very quickly Thank you The member from Timmins, James Bates Thank you, speaker My question is to the minister of transportation It would seem it's almost a regular occurrence now that we have to ask you questions or we have to have meetings with you about the failure of the privatized system of maintaining our highways across Ontario Last week it was a city of Timmins an area that lost access to highways because of a snowfall that is quite normal for the month of May no snow plows to be dispatched and now we had a three-day closure of Highway 101 as a result of MTO not doing what it has to do to inform the contractor and what they have to do to be able to open up a ditch and as a result Highway 101 by the town of Wawa was closed down for a number of days when will you admit the system doesn't work and do something about fixing it before we get in real serious trouble in northern Ontario Thank you very much the member is quite right we do meet regularly I meet with members of the opposition who have concerns as well as members on this side of the House Mr Speaker and as I said to a question the other day it was very evident in the discussions with northern mayors that the snow we had hail rain and snow in sequences that were quite serious I have shared with some of his colleagues the snow and ice reports that have come out and the weather updates we've been very transparent about that this was one of the most difficult winters we've had and I look forward to continuing to work with the member opposite we are looking at and he knows because some of his members have been involved in those discussions about modifications that we could make to snow removal in the north that could happen that obviously couldn't happen in the middle of the last contract season but I appreciate that in his comments and the issues he's raised and I'm hoping that we can work the start of the... Minister the only thing is change is the way that you maintain these highways northern Ontario and the rest of this province have been under this type of weather for years it's not as if it doesn't snow in the month of May in northern Ontario and it's not as if ditches don't freeze and the ministry doesn't have to unthaw them and make sure that the water runs in order to not shut down highways the issue is MTO has lost the capacity to be able to respond to what the conditions on our highways are and to keep them open so I'm asking you a very simple question will you commit to actually reviewing this system so that we don't end up in a situation every time it rains or snows somewhere in the province of Ontario Minister thank you Mr. Speaker we are now in the period between April 22nd and May 22nd Member from Renfrew last time between April and May 22nd Mr. Speaker for many years now we reduced the snow equipment this has been going on for decades by 50% but the issue was raised by the member Mr. Speaker from to Miss Keegan in Cochrane and I said I would get back to him so I can address that today as well that was the reason because we're in the transition era period right now so contractors phase out about 50% of their equipment and we've had exceptional changes which have caused that but I do want to renew my commitment to the members opposite that we said and you and I have met several times now and I've met with other members that we will review that and put changes in place for next winter that I've accepted the criticism now please thank you Mr. Speaker I've got a question this morning for the Minister of Education today we're joined by 8 year old Elizabeth Jule and Oakville last week our government introduced a budget that a past is going to help create jobs and build a prosperous and fair Ontario for all one of the ways we'll do this is by continuing to invest in our world-class education system we've made tremendous gains in that education system with test scores and graduation rates that continue to rise but we know the better student achievement will give all young people like Elizabeth the tools they need to succeed in the future labour market so Mr. Speaker will the Minister please tell this House and the students at Sunnydale School how the proposed budget is going to help improve student achievement thank you Minister of Education yes thank you and Speaker I'd like to thank the member from Oakville and welcome his constituent Elizabeth wherever she is to school here hi Elizabeth our government is I'd like Elizabeth and all the students at Sunnydale school that our government is committed to enhancing student achievement closing the student achievement gap and supporting those students who may be struggling we know that learning experiences for children in the summer can help students further develop important literacy and numeracy skills as you will know from your experiences a principle what often happens particularly with students struggling is that they actually go backwards over the summer so that's why we have introduced specific literacy and numeracy summer camps summer learning programs so if the budget is past speaker we will nearly double the funding for the summer lowering programming of the three million and in addition thank you I remind the minister when I stand you sit point of order for the member from Prince Edward Hastings speaker earlier in question period the minister of the attorney general in response to a question was in violation in my opinion of standing order 23 I and Jay he actually stated that he knew how I was going to be voting on the Ontario budget I'm not exactly sure how the minister it's not a point of order but it's a point of order I wanted to thank you for recognizing me I wanted to introduce the mayor of Cappascasing president of Phenom the federation of northern Ontario municipalities using the visitors east gallery point of order for the member from Timmins James Bay there so I'm glad that somebody picked it up and I apologize for not having seen you up there Al we'll see you later Al we're glad you're here on the motion of the second reading of bill 36 calling the members this will be a five minute bell members take your seats please all members take your seats please last call all members take their seats please thank you well not quite I think I'm going to send the sergeant in arms after and I'm standing Ms. Wynn has moved second reading of bill 36 an act to enact a local food act 2013 all those in favor will stand and rise at one at a time and be recognized by the clerk Ms. Wynn Mr. Garrison Ms. Jeffery Mr. Suza Ms. Matthews Ms. Sandals Mr. Hoskins Ms. McCharles Mr. Quinter Mr. Bartolucci Mr. Crater Mr. Kohl Mr. Dugud Mr. Gravel Ms. Broughton Ms. Kansfield Mr. Balkasen Mr. McNeely Mr. Moriti Mr. Orazetti Mr. Koto Mr. Sergio Mr. Nakvi Mr. Leo Mr. Zimmer Mr. Moro Mr. Flynn Mr. Dillon Mr. Jackson Mr. Dixon Mr. Hardiman Mr. MacLeod Mr. Miller Mr. Cleese Mr. Bailey Mr. Hillier Ms. Jones Mr. Monroe Mr. Chudley Mr. Clark Mr. O'Toole Mr. Smith Mr. Scott Mr. McKenna Mr. Leone Mr. McDonnell Mr. Walker Mr. Jackson Mr. McLaren Mr. Nichols Mr. Vantall Mr. Corbac Mr. DeNovo Mr. Marquesi Mr. Prue Mr. Taylor Mr. Horst Mr. Campbell Mr. Armstrong Mr. Manta Mr. Fife The eyes are 93 the nays are 0 The eyes being 93 the nays being 0 I declare the motion carried Thank you Mr. President Mr. Leone Childhood bill be ordered for third reading Minister of Agriculture and Food Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask that the bill be referred to the Standing Committee on Social Policy. Excellent. So ordered. There are no deferred votes. This house stands recent. I will recognize the point of order. If that, Sergeant Ernst, that has stood up. I would have said no. That's the Minister of Community Safety and so on. To ask the House to join me in congratulating Premier Christie Clark, who won an outstanding vote. This house stands recessed until 3 p.m. this afternoon.


Kia ora kato. Nau mai, hari mai. So, welcome to you all and welcome to this month's EHF Live session.  Now, this session is part of a series where you'll hear from Scott Kabat, an EHF fellow who is an experienced operating executive and entrepreneur with a track record of building customer-friendly mainstream brands to compete in historically unfriendly categories. His experience includes subscription businesses, marketplaces, healthcare, internet of things and consumer package goods. So, in this session, we're going to be focusing on building a marketing team where Scott shares his insights on the when, who, how and where things can go wrong. And last month, we were looking at brand positioning where Scott shares his insights on why it matters, how to approach it and best practices. And you can see all of his sessions in the recordings on our website. And there's going to be plenty of time for Q&A with Scott during this 60-minute session. So, note these are informal sessions. They are planned in a way that you leave here after 60 minutes that you know the fellows on a sort of personal level so that you can understand what their intentions are here and you can connect with them directly. Now, stay unmuted unless you're going to ask a question. You can either put the questions in the Q&A, but as we're a nice small team, you can actually raise your hands and ask those questions. Over to you, Scott. Thanks, Michelle. By the way, it's Cabot, but it's commonly mispronounced. So, it's quite, quite all right. Nice to meet everyone. Why don't we have a small group that will make for good discussion. Thank you everyone for joining. Let me, let me share my screen real quick. Of course, I lost that.  There we go. Everybody able to see that? Great. So, hey, look, I have a few pages here. What I was telling Michelle before we start that these questions about building a marketing team and start-ups are, there's never one right answer. You'll probably come out of today with more questions than answers. So, my goal is not to tell you the one definitive right way to do it is more just to empathize with the fact that it's difficult and also to give some general principles and guidelines to think about as you navigate this process. So, I have a few pages to share based on my past experience as a CMO and now as a consultant and advisor to many early stage companies. And then we've got a lot of time for Q and I feel free to interrupt me along the way if you have questions. So, Michelle, so just raise your hand or throw it in the chat and then we should also have plenty of time at the end. Okay, so just quick flow of this. I'll do just a very brief introduction into my background. Talk about the challenges of building a marketing org and then I'll break down a little bit of why is it important? When should you do it? How do you think about going about it? So, just very quickly in my background, this is the third of these workshops but I think most of the folks we have today are first timers, which is wonderful. Early in my career, I was management consultant and cut my teeth in consumer package goods where I learned the fundamentals of marketing. A lot of time in consumer tech with some B2B2C also across a range of categories. Always this dual focus of likeable brand and unlikable category as well as very focused on building scalable revenue engines. I have worked in various stages from co-founding companies to coming in to start-ups when they're going into growth mode to working at very large companies like Cisco. So, I've seen these marketing org questions manifest themselves at various different stages of growth. And then, yeah, finally today. So, I live in the US in the Bay Area. Founded 621 five years ago, which is a marketing consultancy where a community of fractional marketers who we plug into start-ups and private equity back businesses, whether they're fractional CMOs or boots on the grand help and demand gen brand content, et cetera, to help companies build the pieces to scale their go-to-market engines. So, just setting the stage for diving into these questions about when and how to build a marketing org. I wanted to go from the 50,000-foot level down to 10,000. And so, I just wanted to hit, first of all, highlight what are some of the big challenges in getting marketing right because you see a lot of companies struggle with it. Early on, one of the common issues is around focusing too narrowly on the go-to-market engine. Actually, like going narrowcast for picking a market segment, but what often happens with early-stage companies, and we talked about this in one of the prior sessions, is you get kind of addicted to the drug of paid marketing and Facebook, Google alone. And those are wonderful, efficient channels. I like them a lot for converting the mid-funnel. I like them as environments for testing, messaging and audience. They aren't great for building organic momentum and you will hit a point of diminishing returns on them. So, it's really important to look beyond those alone and also to think about retention and loyalty and long-term value of your customer base. So, that's one. Another is, whoops, it went too fast, brand confusion. Super important to make sure you're really clear on target market. How do we consistently message and position ourselves to that crowd? How do we make sure our customers understand what we're about and why we're here? So, consistency becomes really important there and the risk in trying to go too broad here is you end up trying to be all things to all people, which even for startups that aspire for world domination as most do, you have to start narrow early on. So, I think that developing the discipline about being really tight on who we are, why we're here and what we want our brand to be is really important. And then finally is this question of the team and look, you see this a lot where CMOs are cycling in and out of marketing roles. You see a lot of misfires and marketing hiring or a lot of consternation like, hey, we're paying for this marketing team, they're a cost center, is that really working? And so, there's a lot underneath that, right? Sometimes you just got the wrong team for this stage of growth or there's this mix between digital and analog doesn't work or we've got people who are too senior too junior. Finally, and we'll talk more about this, it's super important to build a marketing work that's agile just like in best practices and product management thinking about that in marketing and how you design both your talent and your supporting technology stack to enable experimentation and iteration becomes really important. So, these are common issues we see across a wide range of startups. So, talking about the or question specifically, look, it's super challenging, right? One thing that's happened in marketing kind of on hyper drive over the last decade is that marketers are specializing more and more. You could put out a job profile for a marketing role and have a thousand candidates and they literally could have a thousand different specialties, right? So, understanding how to navigate that and this is something we see very common in early stage startups particularly with founders who are very product and engineering driven that not having that rosetta stone for how to translate all these different marketing specialties becomes really challenging. Now, in other cases, like you can get it right and the business changes in six months later, it's like, hey, we've got this marketing team but we don't have the right team for the next stage of growth. And the last one is kind of an amalgamation of a few ideas which is particularly for startups. It's not at all and come and look at marketing as a cost center like, hey, these heads and their budget are cutting into our profitability. Marketing is ambiguous by nature. There's rarely one right answer. So, combine those two it can create a really complex situation that's tough to navigate. So, I've talked about why it's a big problem. Let's talk about why it's important. First of all, I think that this is, I want to talk just to contextualize this. This isn't so much why marketing at all. I want to think about it in the context of marketing in the early stages of a startup and how you ought to be thinking about starting to build that muscle. First is look, one thing we see a lot with a lot of tech startups is it's very tempting to have kind of a product out mentality. Here's what we're able to build. Now let's go sell it. And I feel pretty strongly that that's a risky and not very successful to build a business. One of the benefits to building some marketing muscles early on are that it sort of forces a customer centricity around defining who the core customer is and how every element of the product or service experience whether it's B2B, B2C whatever categories and then across functions from marketing to sales to customer success, product, whatever, how all that is feeding the needs of this particular customer segment. So building that kind of muscle early on yields benefits outside of marketing alone over time. Secondly, just touched on this, it's incredibly important to start to test and iterate on who the right audience is, what's the right message, what's the right way to convert them, what's the right way to move them through our funnel and building some cadence and some good process hygiene not just in product development but also around experimentation and marketing. The sooner you start to do that the sooner you'll be able to course correct, validate assumptions that are wrong and get data that you can then bring to bear to make your team smarter. And then finally, you know, everybody's after this idea of hockey stick growth and I think the importance of starting to seed the machinery for your organic flywheel can't be understated, right? And this is back to the point that there's only so far you can go and bind your way to growth through Google AdWords, for instance. It takes time to build a brand, it takes time to build advocacy and word of mouth and so the earlier you start to put the machinery in place to unlock that virality the sooner you'll get to the point where you start to unlock that hockey stick or virality. Then there's a question of when. You know, I have this analogy I use a lot around where how marketing evolves through the life stage of startups. You know, early on and this is I don't think specific to marketing at all early it's very common to have a team of Swiss Army knives. Like these are people who are utility players who can do a little bit of everything. Right? They can run Google ads. They can come in and you know if you need them to put product samples and envelopes and get them out the door they can do that. If you need them to you know help find office furniture for the new hires like these are people can do a little bit of everything and are really critically important because they're also the keepers of the culture early on startup. You don't need me to tell you that. I would say when it comes to marketing specifically you're looking here less for people who are deep functional experts in any one discipline of marketing but that they can more that they can speak the language across different marketing needs whether it's the quant side of you know running some online ads or writing a press release or working with the product team in a launch plan for a release they can do a little bit of everything then over time as you start to grow you transition from the Swiss Army knives into scalpels right. Like okay we need someone who's awesome at email who can do that all day long.  Oftentimes what I see that I think is an underrated challenge in that is that as organizations get into a team of scalpels there's a risk of losing the connective tissue and to get to scale I think that's incredibly important. You need to have a balance of functional depth and expertise but with some breadth also with some generalists and the team whose job is to coordinate what all the specialists are doing into integrated marketing campaigns and unified messaging etc. Let me pause the net for a minute. Any questions so far? Does analogies make sense? Good. Keep going. All right silence is approval. And then let's talk about the how. Here I want to just get into the details of some basic principles and then we'll bring this around and wrap up. I only have a few more pages. First of all I think it's not surprising as in most functions you can start lean. I don't think early on early stage startups need to take on a huge bloated marketing team you'll see I'll share some sample org charts in a minute and you'll see one of the one of the interesting points is I like I find sometimes startups get a product into market they get some initial traction and raise an equity round and then the mandate is like okay let's start marketing let's go find a CMO and usually my message at that point is you don't need a CMO yet right you really want a mix of doers and player coaches so I think there are ways to do this that enable and we'll get deeper into this in a minute that enable you to build the machinery while also staying true to the idea of building a lean org so generally I think it's important that you meet at least one person who's a generalist who can keep the trains running on time and mesh the machinery together and play that Swiss army knife role think you need one or more people who are going to instrument the basics around the digital funnel to make sure that you're capitalizing on whatever interest you're creating and also building out as I mentioned that process hygiene around experimentation iteration there are wise ways to leverage contractors and agencies and you know full disclosure that's a little bit of what I do right now not as an agency but with a team of fractional operators but there are some watchouts and I lived this as a CMO myself I think it's really important to be force yourself to be as precise as possible on what's a must and what's a want especially with hiring agencies a lot of agencies will offer that you know we can do this and this and this and this yes we can be your one stop shop for everything more often than not they have one or two sweet spots that they're really great at and they're not so good at the other stuff and so I would just be really sure that the if you're bringing in an agency that they're the best for the number one must that you have that you absolutely have to get right I'm a personally I'll reveal you know my bias this is exactly what we do a 621 is just a big believer in the embedded model of whether it's a contractor an agency or whomever you want them to operate as an adjunct member of your team as opposed to just a service provider you know it is early stages of the startup like buy in an engagement to what the company is trying to do or are incredibly important and it will amaze you even with direct marketing you know companies that will run your it could run your Facebook or Google ads for you how much artistry can go into their attribution and they're they're tracking so you really want to make sure that these people are working as a part of your team and invested right I just saw something pop up in the chat let me see Steven asked a question how do you evolve from early into next day into the next stage where you're a bit bigger maybe 30 employees or further on once you've been around for a decade what can a stable like a seven-year-old company learn from these principles oh you have to leave a little early got it okay Steven thank you for the question so let me see if I can pick that apart yeah so the first part about evolving to when your 30 employees in a way that's scalable and then what can yeah stable companies learn from these principles okay let me try to let's feel free to feel free to weave it into whatever you're doing I just I have to go to another meeting at 10 30 and I wanted to make sure I got a question and that's okay so I'm sorry thank you no no no that's quite a right let's do this let me get through this page because I think I'll address some of those things at least tangentially and then before we talk about the org charts we'll go back to your question thank you those are great questions yeah so then I mean this I think I could spend half an hour on which I won't but there are a lot of watchouts and working with contractors and agencies I will say for instance here's something I I lived myself as a CMO and I see a lot from companies we work with and working with PR agencies which are like wow they pitched us I lived with the senior people the managing partner say they sounded so passionate about our business I believed everything they got it and then as soon as we signed a contract I had a someone who was fresh out of university as my day to day person and they don't seem to know anymore about this than I do and so I like that's one of many I think it's super important just to to vet these companies and also to make sure that they're really hungry for your business because the reality is in the early stage of a company when you don't have a big budget you're not going to be a big profit center so to these to these outside parties so they've got to really believe that investing their time and and sweat equity in you is going to enable their business to take off as you grow so anyway I'm happy to answer more more questions on that I think and and Steven that this is one that I would argue is a often a breakdown with companies at any size or stage whether it's an early stage start-up or you know more mature business that's been around is it always amazes me like go into large marketing organizations and we'll see well we need more insights we gotta do more research more research more research and more often than not when you get under the hood you find out that that that there's a lot of insight in the building already that isn't being socialized and digested right and so and I see it I see it within marketing teams and I see it between marketing product marketing and sales et cetera et cetera where you know if the marketing team is in the front line getting customer feedback on the product on the messaging and positioning et cetera et cetera you need to make sure that what they're learning is being disseminated into the company and affecting not just the marketing but also the product roadmap is I do find that look the best orgs have people throughout the organization who are well even if it's just with friends and family they're having touchpoints with potential customers and if they're not disseminating that back into the company that's a lot of lost knowledge I do think that consistency is incredibly important as you build the team and as well as cross-functional like that I mentioned this idea of losing the connective tissue I do see a lot of times in marketing orgs like the email person is running with their plan and the paid media person has theirs and the content person has theirs but then from the customer perspective they're receiving all this and it's almost like they're receiving it from people working in three different companies right and so clarity and alignment and consistency are important is the other thing is whether it's a B2B or B2C business your customers get fatigued if you're hitting them all the time with competing messages so make sure you do it you know strategically and selectively I'm a big believer that less is more Michelle and I were talking before before we started just about the importance of fit I'd say especially in an early stage company like there's the skill set but then there's the level of like hey just is this person going to fit in our culture and especially in marketing because if they're going to be the face of your brand then Demet you want to make sure that like they're a good representation of the culture um finally I think it's incredibly important in all this to just be savvy to the fact that all of this will change and so like Stephen you asked about like whether it's 30 employees or a 70 year old company where I see a lot of them get tripped up is they're fighting the last war right like the needs of the business have changed or they've outgrown some of the talent or they've got people doing you know marketing jobs that made sense a year ago but don't make sense now and so it doesn't mean that you always have to purge the team and start over but I think at least for my my own subjective experience in marketing may be more so than some other functions you have to constantly be thinking about do we have this talented person in the right role for their skill set and how do we adapt that so look I'd say and Stephen going back to your questions the last thing I'd say is that I don't think these themes are unique to startups and I don't think they're frankly and I've seen this at various stages as an operator myself I think the threads are very common regardless of the stage of growth so I tried to I kind of chipped away at your question a few different ways did I hit the high notes is there anything else you'd like to ask them up before you have to jump yeah no that that's really helpful and I guess just as a comment what I see is that after companies have been going for a while they kind of forget the urgency of being fresh with their messaging and their marketing because they start to believe their own hype and their own marketing story if you ask and it becomes all about the company or you know of course you should come to us because we're the best and instead what you need to maybe be thinking this is my own reflection so you can correct me but you should always be thinking about how can we serve our customers how can we be it's not about us it's about them and sometimes it feels like organisations have been around for a couple decades it's all about our story rather than it's about your story so yeah I love that I agree wholeheartedly with that and you do see I think and it's very tempting particularly in companies with with a lot of with a sophisticated product that it's very tempting for your marketing just to become very self-referential right like here's what it is it's great you should love it but at the end of the day whether it's B2B or B2C you got to make sure that the person on the other end of it that it's it's addressing a problem that the person on the other end of it faces so yes I love that point and back when I showed that that image of the arrows going into the customer that was exactly you said it much more elegantly than I did so thank you and then finally I just had two more things to share and look this is all with the giant caveat that this is not meant to be the definitive way to do it but I want to just as a teaser to share this is something we use with some of our private equity partners we work with around helping them think about the early incarnations of a digitally savvy marketing world so there's one for B2B and one for B2C and thanks to what we've done here is to say look what's in blue are your highest priority hires gray probably comes next and then the one with dots if you keep growing you'll probably hire eventually but they might be places to start with contract resources right and so what you see here in B2B is making sure that early on you're building two mussels that kind of generalist corporate marketing muscle and the digital the efficient dimension and digital upswatt and so those become the places starting and you'll note both here and in the next page as I mentioned earlier you don't see the CMO or VP of marketing as the very first hire you know I think there's a lot you can do here by starting with the lieutenant level building out these are people who are player coaches who can be strategic but can also roll up their sleeves and get things done which you want to avoid is over hiring at this point where you get someone who's super senior but isn't comfortable rolling up their sleeves and doing right so I'll hit the B2C one and then you guys may have some questions on these on these org charts the B2C it looks fairly fairly similar you'll notice a couple differences here this on the left rather than corporate marketing I've combined brand and product marketing into one which over time you it's not it's not uncommon to have them segmented but it's very similar to the corporate marketing function in the B2B side as a separate head around acquisition and growth and then I do think an email someone who's actually executing and managing email and drip campaigns and all that becomes really important now what would I put here that you may not do at the beginning but I am a big believer from my own CMO experience over time this is a smart way to go that I am a believer in splitting life cycle from acquisition it's very common in marketing orgs to roll retention under a broad growth team that's very acquisition focus and the risk in that is honestly the retention priorities usually are always like the step child that doesn't get enough attention and building good unit economics I think having one team that focuses on life cycle and one that focuses on acquisition helps you and when the more discipline deeper way address cack on one end and LTV on the other let me pause there there's a lot on these two pages are there other questions I'll go back to the B2B one for a sec if anyone has questions on that you see content potentially you can do through a contract or early on too you know just what we're trying to get out here is a little bit of the sequencing you go through of like there's probably a first wave of hires then a second wave and then a third and I think that's all I've got thank you for thank you for bearing with me I know that's a lot of information to throw at you are there other questions or observations of those would be okay to actually have quite disjointed from if your current teams in New Zealand which ones would be okay sort of culturally to fit maybe up in the US or wherever a country is exporting to yeah it's a good question Michelle I mean I think I won't answer it as specific to New Zealand you know but what I would say in general as it and I didn't get into this as much here because we're you know I was thinking more through the lens of early stage but it is important as the organization grows and as businesses doing meaningful business across markets that there's that kind of the balance of centralization versus local customization right like I was talking about business yes it's SAS business yesterday it's based in Australia that's very much in the product to light growth and they're having a hard time getting that model to translate into the US right and so I think that it's not to say that you have to have boots on the ground in every single market that you're in but I think it's incredibly important to be sensitive to the cultures of the markets you're doing business and in understanding how the go-to-market model needs to vary when it comes to PR and communications you very often do need local resources who know the press and know the communication channels etc etc Yeah and then you know look I want to say that the degree of digital savvy and focus and focus on you know acquisition marketing versus brand marketing can vary by market but ultimately I'm of the mind that you know as a startup grows they're going to need a balance to those regardless nice okay Madal do you have a question Yeah yeah I had a meeting in Mellin sorry because there's a lot of background noise there sorry about that preemptively unmuted myself Yeah thanks Scott that was that was amazing thank you for that my question is possibly twofold but they might be connected so you talked early on about sort of building this machinery for organic of course growth I guess and kind of that that flywheel are there any specific roles that you think are really critical to that early stage in the context of B2C and the secondary part that question was how important do you think those content roles are I guess for B2C organisations and I see you have in those this little bit of a second priority but are they quite important in terms of that kind of flywheel for growth Thank you Madal I appreciate the question so let me make sure I heard so the first one is about building the organic flywheel and B2C and the second is about the role of content in B2C I get that Yeah exactly and I'm wondering if I was connected Yes well so on the organic flywheel you hit on one of the things we touched on in our last workshop which is one of my like things I hold very near and dear as a B2C person by background is that I think there is a big opportunity to have your early customers really be the face and mouthpiece of your brand right and to me organic the unlock on organic happens much more naturally when it's kind of in a very authentic way versus a transactional way like when transaction is like there's only so far you're going to say hey we'll pay you to make a bunch of recommendations for something that you like but don't love right I'd rather see that you have a small group of people who just love and live and breathe by your product and really want to talk about it and so you know whether it's putting them on your website or building testimonials case studies you know any opportunity for them to kind of like a very mission driven B2C business I was worked with a lot over the last couple of years they do like all their Facebook ads are basically just showcasing stories from their existing customers so to me that's the right DNA to start to start to build your organic flywheel I think what you have to get comfortable with and again we could spend hours on this topic alone is you have to be comfortable with the idea of starting a lot of little fires and a lot of them are just going to flame out right and you know it's not so much like and so you need to find a way to do it that is fairly turnkey and you know limited amount of customization so that you can do them really well right so anyway we can certainly chat more about that on content and I'm a huge believer in the power of content and this is actually both your questions are connected in a way because I do think the content can help really build organic momentum I think the mistake I see a lot of companies especially early stage companies make with their content strategy twofold one is I see this a lot in my business we'll meet companies say hey we just need content we'll say slow down a second what's the strategy behind the content and then let's populate a calendar that maps to that strategy so I do think that stepping back for a minute is helpful the other thing is really tempting and I see this a lot to make your content all promotional or almost advertising in nature talking about how great we are and how great our product offering is and look I do think that's an important part of the content strategy but it's one part of the equation I think what's equally or maybe even more important is thought leadership content where you're finding conversations in the culture that are already happening and plugging into those and providing a unique point of view on you have to be comfortable in that situation with the idea that you're not shamelessly plugging your product as much but you're building a voice for your brand is having an interesting point of view on a conversation that's happening already does that make sense like there are a lot of productivity softwares or hacks out today and it would be equivalent rather than just talking about our product and all the features work from home is a big trend here are some things we're seeing and how work from home is going and how that's influencing productivity writ large in the culture and what I like about that is that that thought leadership content is honestly much more likely to get shared because nobody likes feeling like they're being advertised to and it's much more likely that they'll say that was interesting these guys made me think of learning about your brand that answer your question yeah that's great thank you and I might reach out yeah no thank you any other questions we covered a lot of territory Michelle in a short period of time today yeah so Mellon you've got any others or Julian if you wanted to bring anything up at all yeah have you two got each another email address Scott do you want to put your consulting share yeah I'm always happy to answer more questions on this there we go and then also the recording that Scott was referring to for the last session is there on that website and then that's also the same one that you can register for brand positioning as the next session as well Mellon what does speak sense yeah if you go into that link it's yeah so we had um we've done building the marketing team was today our customer acquisition building your MVP marketing engine and then the our customer acquisition is the one to come on the 19th we've had building your MVP brand positioning thank you yeah go and check those out and yes Scott to answer your question so speak sense we're really really stage and we're based in Wellington in New Zealand and we are an AI powered direct consumer platform for fragrance so we help people find fragrances that suit them using machine learning oh cool I started my career in package goods and so we dealt with fragrance manufacturers a lot I can't say I'm an expert on it it's a fascinating space and I also know I have a terrible nose I'm not any good at judging fragrance that's very cool and I love it's fun to hear the B2C related questions good well if Julian thank you for your I see your chat not a problem at all and if either of you have further questions let me know happy to talk further on these topics