Today we're going to talk about Ed Kemper and from May 1973 to April 1974 he killed 10 people including his mother And that was while he was on parole for killing his grandparents Greg wants to tell us about the videos we're gonna watch. Yeah, so these videos come from a documentary called murder No apparent motive in 1984. It was about serial killers and FBI behavioral science profilers These are some of the best interviews from that video. Here's the piece you should know He killed his grandparents at 15 years old and was incarcerated until 21 a state mental hospital They declared my paranoid schizophrenic until he convinced them that he was rehabbed in a resolution prison He was on parole at on probation as you said Scott when this happened when they asked him why he killed his grandmother He said because he wanted to know how it felt and he killed his grandfather So he wouldn't be angry with him about killing his grandmother. Well, I'm not an expert. I'm not an authority I'm someone who has been a murderer for almost 20 years Can you say how many people might be doing crimes like you were doing it would be a guess, but it's not it's far more than 35 It isn't that impossible in this society. It happens. Are there more people? They didn't give up How many she didn't give up I did I came in out of the cold And what I'm saying is there are some people who prefer it in the cold good people see a nice guy Did you like Kemper?  I locked myself out She opened the door for me My gun was under the seat What in the hell am I doing telling you that? Am I looking am I am a masochist am I looking to be tormented further? I'm trying to show you just how Awful the Scott how commanding these rages got I was raging inside. There was just Incredible energies positive and negative Depending on a mood that would trigger one or the other and Outside I looked troubled at times other times. I looked moody other times perfectly serene Not very sane, but again People weren't even aware of what was happening. All right, Greg. What do you got? So let's start by talking about resistance to interrogation. Everybody asks me always what I can tell them Let me tell you this none of it works You're not believable and so the biggest struggle for a person who's trying to resist interrogation is to appear to be Cooperative and help ding ding ding. That's who we're looking at right here Wait, and I'll show you where as we go through but this guy's soppy sincere wait till we get through You will be able to see it as clear as day. It starts right here though. He's doing these long vowels I'm not an expert an authority Listen to those linkedin bow and he pulls with his eyes as he's doing it.  He's heard psychologists say paranoid schizophrenic I'm sure he played that whatever he needed. He learned all the right language And I think we're gonna see it all through this thing when he's shaking his head No, he's not predicting his message. He is supporting his message when he said they didn't give up He does however show disdain and disdain we see that drawing back of the mouth and that But when he's talking about himself as a nice guy because he knew he wasn't I think that he likes to teach He likes to pontificate and this guy if he does a good job all he has to do is to go really. Oh Tell me more play naive. We play it. We prey on the person's natural tendency You want to teach and it was and you'll get to see this This guy's a celebrity of some sort already by this point by 1984 and we're gonna see him Just pontificate about crime and those things chase. What do you got? I? Really great with you here He frequently refers to expertise and authority in a lot of situations And I think this speaks to a mindset of a person who confuses what expertise is I Can promise you that killing people for 20 years Makes you more of an expert and killing than every professor who spent five times as long doing stuff I think there's a massive difference between skill and experience and Someone who has information and data So he's got that nobody who studies psychopaths has and I think that there's a genuine desire to communicate the full Experience of truth here the full expression of truth He's trying to come across really clean you can see this in the way He's comfortable editing his language to make sure it's accurate There's no hesitancy or stress when he's editing that information and we see a little bit of self soothing behavior touching his wrist And I think this is more likely to be the presence of all the cameras that around and not the subject matter That's being discussed and while he's talking about rages He shakes his head and this might show us a little bit about his mindset like he's trying to shake it out of his head and there's a potential that he resisted these rages and that Accentuated by this hand up here to kind of help right there There's a small gesture like he's trying to pull it out of his head And if I was in your here, I Might make this gesture again later after a few minutes when asking a follow-up question about these rages I might that exact same gesture that I saw him do and just finally notice the lack of ownership in all the language here a Mood not my mood these rages not my rages and how commanding they get So these rages are now commanding me to do something which is highly dissociated We're gonna see some more of this along the way Scott. What do you go? I agree? He'd he just associates himself with just about everything. It's like it happened to someone else This is why I thought it was paranoid schizophrenic when it was we first started going through these things I've ended up on another Spot with that now, but yeah, I agree with you. It's he's he's not owning anything He's not taking anything as his own as it's almost like he's talking about somebody else his blinker age is really low He seems really relaxed doesn't seem like too bothered about talking about this he's fairly non-expressive facially and But he has these little smiles peppered throughout his conversation during this There are no visual this visual or audible cues of stress everything sounds fairly normal and Even compared as we go through this I'm using that as the baseline which which as a viewer You don't have yet because you haven't seen all those and when he says it happens He uses his assertive face like he knows something like he's he's sure about that He uses his illustrator sparingly. He doesn't use those very often at all And he's very aware of how he's looking to other people usually all the things that that point toward the narcissistic Personality obviously and by these choice of words and putting everything bad on somebody else And we'll see how deep that goes in just a few minutes This goes his arm rest with his hand up and that suggests he's comfortable But at the same time being dominant in that situation I think the most fascinating part of this is they got George RR Martin to interview him for this I don't know if you all are familiar with who that is. Do you know who that is? I'm gonna assume that's a joke I Are our mountain who was it Martin? He's a writer's author Yeah, you gave us your other stuff. All right Okay, yeah, yeah, I only got through the first 10 minutes game of Thrones. So, okay, so mark where you got yes What have I got? Well number one that I'm clearly not a game of Thrones fan ever Take that wherever you look first of all, you know, he's super calm That's the main main piece of body language as far as I'm concerned like he kind of does nothing I mean what is picked on some really good fine points of that? So it isn't like he does nothing but in the grand scheme of things he really does Hardly do anything. So it's a good job with Pavia panel and not the body language panel because I think we'd run out of Stuff pretty quickly net net for me of his story is That society creates a space where a guy like him can commit multiple Murders because people are relatively foolish. I think that's Underneath what his story is that it is this it isn't his fault. Yes He has these rages and he goes into that but ultimately he's suggesting that Situations present themselves and those situations even re-present themselves when they really shouldn't people Allow him in the vehicle when it shouldn't have happened. It's other people's foolishness He puts himself across in my opinion as something heroic says came in from the cold. That's that's Le Carré He's a double agent. He's a Richard Burton figure.  You know, I was surprised at that early diagnosis At the start because I went what how did somebody die? Who's that especially the young at a young age? there's that for a start but also Instantly something which is really quite narcissistic there, which is everybody else is at fault. Yeah I'm a bit of a hero actually I think imagine Burton and and and a really cool kind of double agent going on there So so look, let's see how this can continue because early days. We've got a lot of great videos to go through Let's see what happens. Well, if you don't know who we are with the behavior panel And I'm Scott Rasmus body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation body language And it created the number one online body language course body language tactics with Greg Hartley mark I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language help people all over the world to stand out win trust gain credibility Every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the G7 chase Hey, I'm Chase used to 20 years in the US military I wrote the number one best-selling book on behavior profiling influence and persuasion and I transform people's lives through teaching those skills today Greg I'm Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor Britain 10 books on body language and behavior And I spend most of my time in business. Well, I'm not an expert. I'm not an authority I'm someone who has been a murderer for almost 20 years Can you say how many people might be doing crimes like you were doing? It would be a guess, but it's not it's far more than 35 It isn't that impossible in this society. It happens. Are there more people? They didn't give up How many she didn't give up I did I came in out of the cold And what I'm saying is there are some people who Prefer it in the cold that people see a nice guy Did you like camper?  Let me back in the car. I locked myself out She opened the door for me My gun was under the seat What in the hell am I doing telling you that? Am I looking am I am a masochist am I looking to be tormented further? I'm trying to show you just how Awful this got how commanding these rages got I was raging inside. There was just Incredible energies positive and negative Depending on a mood that would trigger one or the other and Outside I looked troubled at times other times. I looked moody other times perfectly serene Not very sane, but again People weren't even aware of what was happening. You were involved in a campus because your mother worked there.  I hated her But I wanted to love my mother and I watched the alcohol increase.  I'm a constant reminder of that failure. I hate to distill it down into such Into one word realities like that. There's a lot that leads into that happening, but that is what happened They represented not what my mother was but what she liked what she coveted what was important to her and I was destroying it Okay, Greg what do you got?  He does great Request for approval meaning I'm raising my brow trying to get you to give me up So I can keep moving along with the story at her life at miserable and at father interestingly one of the psychologists when he was young or maybe later said he was simply punishing the Abandonment of his mother and father because his mother got remarried or they got divorced his mother made him live with her He ran away moved in with his father his father sitting live with his grandparents and killed his grandparents So look this is this guy can preach whatever message he wants with all this soppy thing He's doing but listen to what he's saying not what he thinks he's saying he's got a message to get out his face Titans his brow goes down in his mouth narrow when he's talking about these people and he says it's the way I was raised and and and but if you go back and look in his history when he's a young child He abused animals He did all stop all the earmarks that we find of psychopaths mark. What do you got? Yeah, I couldn't agree more He's got this this because of this mantra and what did you say this documentary was originally called? It was called murder without a Hold on one second. No apparent motive murder no apparent motive. Yeah, exactly No apparent motive and and and I think this is a theme that's gonna gonna come along Because he is trying to put down an apparent motive.  No, he's put down here. Here's your motives. I've given you the the the jigsaw puzzle Perfect put ever in a very very simple idea. In fact, he admits that he's simple. He says You know, it sounds very simple yet soundly simple does it sound? Overly simplified does it that sound like he's trying to offer us something where we go?  Wasn't she I mean, yeah Mums can be some mums can be terrible terrible terrible people. Absolutely. Absolutely, but But that sounds too simple for me and he admits that it's too simple So is it more complex? Is it more complex than that? And I think Greg you hinting at it that there's some early Some some early signals that it is it is more complex than Plicity that he puts forward. He says, you know, there's a one word. There's a one word word motive for this And I think his word is mother really It is super kind of Freudian isn't it and and and that's that's that's kind of a good kind of whistle That people might jump on and go brilliant super simple case wrapped up here. We go nice serial killer sorted I think it's a little more complex chase. What do you got on this one? Yeah, I have to agree Watching this this morning. I don't know a whole lot about the case to be honest Right when he's saying I was involved in killing coeds This is more distancing language and it's interesting here. He's copying the word involved from the interviewer And he borrowed this language from him and this is a great method to make somebody feel like you're answering their question And I'm sure he's developed this skill rather than learned it from some kind of training It describes his mom as sick angry hungry and sad I was really curious about the hungry part. I would love to in there and asked him about this But I think this is the same reference that he loosely makes to himself And if listen these four words over the next few clips You're going to hear him describing himself as sick angry hungry and sad And you hear him build a case for destroying everything that was important to his mother He wants to destroy everything that was important to her I'd like to know what she destroyed that was important to him And I don't know how a lot about this case but if you do let me know in the comments because I think this an example of what I call a reflection aggression and Reflection descriptions are right here when he's describing all the party hate about himself and how ugly they look in other People and how if he can get rid of it in someone else, then it might leave him to Scott, what do you got? I see what you're saying I think the things that were we're seeing reflect back when he was a kid and he was a mean little kid And she was getting after him trying to make him mind. I think it goes back that far There's some other things that happened where we'll hear him talk about some chickens and things like that But I think he was mad at her or hated her because she tried to make him mind all the time Because apparently he was out of control a lot of the time He wouldn't be a good kid or a good person and he blames puts all of his Transgressions on his mother every single thing and you're right That's the recurring theme throughout this is it's all of his mother's fault and mark Like you were saying it's he's the hero here and it's all because he does these things because his mother Quote-unquote made him do it. It's what he's trying to make it sound like but she didn't and you can now I think george rr Martin did a great Interview here because at the beginning when he asked that first question He pauses and then it hits him and you can see him pop into that thing and start blaming his mom for all this That's when all that stuff starts coming out I mean he talks about killing co-wids and women We see a little duping delight there just a little bit And then he goes on a deep dive again about how his mother's a bad person talks about all the drinking The crazy behavior all those things And and I think he does this To this redirection to her every time obviously to protect his ego because when you're dealing with the psychopath The ego is the most important thing to him or a hardcore clinical narcissist. That's the thing they protect the most Once you brush up against that ego And do something bad and make him mad They will wait forever to get you back They will wait and wait and wait and they'll see their shot and take it And I think it goes back to his childhood where she was trying to make him mind Maybe spanked him maybe tried doing stuff But he was still out of hand and that's one of the reasons he hated her guts so much You were involved in the campus because your mother worked there. Yes I was also involved in killing co-heads because my mother was associated with college work college co-heads women And had had a very strong and violently outspoken position on men For much of my upbringing.  I hated her But I wanted to love my mother and I watched the alcohol increase. I watched her social life drop off I watched her get Bizarre. She had terrible pain from her life earlier life her upbringing Failed marriage with my father. I'm a constant reminder of that failure. I hate to distill it down into such In a one word realities like that. There's a lot that leads into that happening, but that is what happened They represented not what my mother was but what she liked what she coveted what was important to her And I was destroying it.  My frustration My inability to communicate socially sexually I wasn't impotent But emotionally I was impotent. I was scared to death of failing In male-female relationships. I knew absolutely nothing about that whole area Even if just sitting down and talking with young lady I need to be able to really communicate and ironically enough. That's why I began picking people up And I'm picking up young women and I'm going a little bit farther each time It's a daring kind of a thing At first there wasn't a gun. I'm driving along. We'd go to a vulnerable place Where there aren't people watching where I could act out and I say no I can't And then a gun is in the car hidden and this Craving this awful raging eating Feeling inside I could feel it consuming My insides this fantastic passion Uh, it was overwhelming me It was like drugs. It was like alcohol A little isn't enough at first it is and as you adjust to that psychologically and physically you take more and more and more It's the same process So it finally came down to the thing of do I dare bring this gun out? Already realizing if that gun comes out something has to happen It was going to happen. I didn't see it then, but it was going to happen I was playing a dangerous game with a loaded gun It got us all All right, mark. What do you got? Yeah, I spotted some body language. There's some body language in there and But it's in a weird place So there's concern with him on the question until he starts to answer and then all the concern clears up And so I'd expect it to be somewhat the other way around because because um His story is about frustration in ability. He's scared need to be able to communicate I would expect concern and frustration and and some kind of body language around all of those kind of words And there's nothing there's just concern when he when he's listening to the question Is that he doesn't know what question is coming Is that he doesn't like to be not to be in charge and everything kind of softens up when he's in charge It's the wrong way around for me. Anyway, I saw some body language. So fantastic. I've fulfilled that part of my session for you What else do we get from him? Well, we get um Craving addiction passion Fantastic overwhelming like drugs alcohol So he's doing the whole I got addicted thing and he starts off with it was like drugs or alcohol So he does a simile but that very soon dissolves into um A metaphor because he says you take more and more now. It's not it's like you make more more He just says you take more and more. So now he's ill with an addiction. He has an illness It's not him anymore. It's an illness that he has he's still the hero there And so we get um, we get we get it displaced into an it we get Stephen King's it Again, it was going to happen. I didn't see it So that's total abdication of responsibility. He's he's ill He he he can't control it. It creeps up him from behind. We should all feel sorry for him because it's an it He has zero responsibility for this. So I would instantly go This is antisocial and so we have an antisocial personality here No, no denying it as far as I can see. Uh, that's we got on that one. Uh, greg. What do you got? Yeah, I actually like this one a lot because it starts to show him through Look, you can cover and you can do all of this soppy sincerity and do all of those things you want But if your brain is trying to say what it thinks while your mouth is doing what you're willing it to do It's hard to cover those up. So when he says something about the girls You see that chin engage that chin bosses engage and chase them sure you'll talk about we talk about all the time so we usually associate that with grief or with Or or with um, I'm sorry with grief or with shame and you pay attention to him Usually we then look at the rest of the face to know what it is. There's no grief muscle There's nothing else involved. So I'm just going to call that shame and chase you may have a different opinion when you see it He says sexuality, he does a minor lip compression where this is the beginning of something we're going to see a lot of That's withheld emotion I think and then he quickly has to jump in there and not that I was sexually impetent Like it's a point of pride for him his chin comes up a bit and now we start to see The mask slip or whatever you want to call it. There's some needs to messaging He goes from I picked these girls up to expand my ability to communicate But then he quickly shifts to say daring and carrying a gun I think that's his brain saying what he what he actually was doing while he's trying to cover it with some kind of Soppy sincerity at the top Then you get that I honestly don't think that he had any intent of telling you the truth I think that's just his operating system underneath coming out and saying what actually happened That's a lot of message shifting there to go between those two different Messages and then to go to some rationalizing why it happened I think he's just trying to win over this guy He's socially aware enough anti social personality. Yes, but socially aware enough that he's doing what it takes Listen to the shift I'm driving we go a gun is in No connection to him whatsoever.   It was going to happen It got us all How did it get us all?  I think he's doing exactly what you're saying He's throwing out everybody else drinks have this problem. He's just more of the same. He's doing what this guy wants to hear Scott, what do you got? All right When he's describing how it's a drug what he's talking about is Is this when psychopaths actually start feeling something because they usually don't because they've got a problem where they're amygdala Either it doesn't work.  It gooses his adrenaline and it gives him a feeling he actually feels something So I think he became what he says addicted to that actual feeling something Which he hasn't felt anything Are not much up to that point like who you're saying Greg when he killed his grandfather He or his grandmother he wanted to see what if what it felt like to do that See if it gave if it made him feel anything So that's what they're talking about. That's what he's talking about in that situation He actually did feel something and he liked feeling something and that's maybe the only thing that did that did it for him at the beginning of this Up to this point his total is his total reasoning For why he killed has changed before it was about his mother now it's from trying to get back at his mother and For his stunted social skills That's what he's blaming on not be able to talk to people not knowing how to to act socially Then he talks about picking up women and not hurting him, but all of a sudden there's a gun in the car like you were saying Greg Really you put the gun in the car, man. It just wasn't there all of a sudden He keeps distancing himself from everything like he's looking at it in the third person That's that's which is really odd when he says awful raging eating There's a full expression of anger when he says eating adam. So that was that That must be one of his his keywords that triggers them there or something he thinks about how that's eaten adam that kind of thing Quite often when you see a psychopath out in the wild or when they when once they look back on and see that They'll see them hunting for these situations where they can make action happen something that'll that'll give them that adrenaline rush for example the guy who The doctor who found found out he had the same brain set up To make a long story short as a psychopath would take his family on these these really dangerous trips Like little kids and stuff on these whitewater rafting trips You'll see him doing things like that. You're here about them your dad did what but they won't come into the Normal world out here in the wild it hurt anybody or anything I think that has has to do with it the way they were raised around a lot of people that took care of them Love them and they didn't see a lot of violence Whereas psychopaths like you have those I use examples of isis and those types That are in those they see violence growing up and it's not a problem for them at all It's it's natural for them to to be violent in this case. I don't think it was it was natural for him to be violent, but I think it goes back to his mom Being what he thought was being mean to him She's simply trying to get him to mind and that made him mad and when he started doing stuff Like well like he did some things when he was younger to animals I think that gave him that rush and gave him that feeling and he just kept moving it up To people at this point ended up being those girls But he went from blaming everything on his mother to blaming everything on his his Stunted social skills at this point chase. What do you got? Yeah, I agree with you guys when when I teach criminal profilers or detectives This is the language pattern shift of a criminal type that we call the intruder victim And in the sense the criminal is a victim of intrusive thoughts and feelings And whether it's true or not, they're either believing this or selling it to the interviewer Doesn't matter. So we use that archetype to describe this as an intruder victim You can hear throughout the clip how dissociative it is the guns in the car this craving this awful raging this eating this feeling this passion And he sums it all up in the end with a statement that 100% completely identifies him as the intruder victim It got us all And I agree with you Scott. This is him telling us that The intruder got us all. This is the team pronoun. He identifies himself as the intruder himself as another victim in the pool with all the other people and It's all of this monster that he's kind of describing This monster is actually going to come out and show its face here in a minute We're going to get a little more accurate description of this And I'll tell you how his mother might have helped to make that happen All right Oh, Greg wins that one hard man.  My frustration My inability to communicate Socially sexually I wasn't impotent But emotionally I was impotent. I was scared to death of failing In male-female relationships. I knew absolutely nothing about that whole area Even if just sitting down and talking with young lady I need to be able to really communicate and ironically enough that's why I began picking people up And I'm picking up young women and I'm going a little bit farther each time. It's a daring kind of a thing At first there wasn't a gun. I'm driving along. We'd go to a vulnerable place Where there aren't people watching where I could act out and I say no I can't And then a gun is in the car hidden and this Craving this awful raging eating feeling inside I could feel it consuming my insides this fantastic passion Uh, it was overwhelming me It was like drugs. It was like alcohol A little isn't enough at first it is and as you adjust to that psychologically and physically you take more and more and more It's the same process So it finally came down to the thing of do I dare bring this gun out? Already realizing if that gun comes out something has to happen It was going to happen. I didn't see it then, but it was going to happen. I was playing a dangerous game with a loaded gun It got us all on one occasion Kemper picked up two roommates in berkeley and that first killing in may of 72 When that gun was pulled out I launched it out for it. I hit it under my leg out of sight Parallel to my to my leg in the seat It was something that had been thought out in fantasy acted out felt out Hundreds of times before it ever happened Kemper drove them at gunpoint to a secluded area near a park He took one of them into the woods leaving the second girl tied in the car I just gone through a horrible experience with her roommate stabbing her And I was in shock because of that. I couldn't believe that it was that way And I'm walking back there bewildered. I got a killer. I can't let her go.  What are you doing? She pulled back and she gasped And I think whoa, I don't want her to know what happened I said your friend got smart with me. She'd been getting really smart with me a lot, but I never hit her I killed her, but I didn't hit her I said your friend got smart with me and I hit her. I think I broke her nose. You better come help She's about to die. Why don't why does she have to know that? I couldn't deal with telling her that And when I attacked her she didn't at first realize what was happening. It didn't go through She had very heavy coveralls on it knocked her right up into the lid of the car But it didn't pierce the clothing So Wasn't that swell a knife anyway I went out and bought a pawn shop huge knife and uh I kept on it just mindlessly attacking she falls back into the trunk All right chase. What do you got? Right here. There's more Unusual language that reveals his mindset the gun was pulled out Uh, but there's smooth and fluid body narration here His body is assisting and telling us the story and and how helping us understand the story So he says it had been thought out It had been felt out And when he's saying I just had been through a horrible experience with her roommate He's the one who endured the suffering in his mind His eyebrows Are down to mention. I never hit her and as a rule of thumb eyebrows typically go Upward desiring agreement and downward desiring understanding So I really want you to understand this. I never hit her. I'm gonna kill her But yeah, I'm not the type to hit people And I think he's frustrated Here that her questions are somehow pulling him out of his fantasy I think this girl or woman questioning him in the backseat of the car These are just a little alarm clocks interrupting a good dream to him And I think that upset him more than anything else And when he goes through any violent action, there's severity softening which we talk about all the all all the time All the details about the knife or the violence are gone And he's distancing, you know, he kept attacking instead of stabbing and he's What we're really seeing He's distancing the mask here that he's wearing from the details of the intruder that we just talked about And we're going to talk about this intruder a lot.  It's out. I don't know how that gun got out Now I've got to use it. It's this dark intruder So I'm gonna call it the intruder if you guys want to join me. If not, uh, we're not friends anymore But Scott, what do you have? All right Again, he's constantly removing himself from his actions and that first killing when the gun was pulled out It sounds like somebody else doing it and then he doesn't say this was something I thought about and acted out hundreds of times. He says this is something that was thought out and acted out hundreds of times Again, the severity softening is just I think that's the real star here is the severity softening Everything is not him. He's almost viewing it from the third person. That's why I still with that paranoid schizophrenic situation earlier And from this angle, it looks like he's doing these little single shoulder shrugs But I think he's uh illustrating at that point and we can't see his hands. So I think that's what's happening there Um, he never gets graphic. He never gets into gory details. This is the first time he's talked about blood And when he says when I attacked her when I attacked her, he's actually me when he stabbed her So he's even severity softening there at that point and Apparently again that Severity softening to me is the star here because that's of the utmost importance to him because he's trying to keep that His what he looks like to everyone else In check. So it looks like a good guy. He's done these horrific things, but he's still coming on like hey I'm a great guy. It's not my fault. It's my mom's fault and my inability to socialize properly Um, and then when he says I kept mindlessly attacking her and she fell into the trunk No, you don't fall into a trunk when you're being mindlessly attacked I think it was I think he pushed her in there after he was stabbing her Um, that's what it sounds like to me. Anyway mark. What do you think? Yeah, so um to your point jason scott, uh, I'd just gone through a horrible experience. I was in shock shock so, uh That's narcissism. So just to show you the difference like if I look at myself in a mirror Though that is where the original story of narcissus comes from him looking at himself in a pool It it's you know, narcissism is probably wrongly named because because that's kind of low rent as opposed to what we've got here Which is this true narcissism where it's not somebody taking selfies. They have killed somebody They've killed somebody and now it's all about you but what about me? Think about the pain that I went through and of course the rest of society because there is something, you know Anti-slip out this goes you shouldn't really be thinking about yourself in this situation And the true narcissist will go. Well, no, I should I should I mean because it's all about me And they won't be able to see the sociological side of it now Let's move on to this idea of paranoia. He thinks to himself Everyone's going to get me everyone's going to get me and so it would be easy to go. Hey like yeah There's paranoia paranoia everybody's going to get them. No, but if you murder somebody Everybody will be out anybody sensible anybody reasonable anybody in the society will go We got to get that done. We got to incarcerate him or or certainly we got to bring down on him the strongest rule that our Society has come up with Oh, that isn't paranoia. That's narcissism again. Everybody's going to get me. Yeah, so There's Concern that she didn't at first realize what was happening. We see that this furrowed Brow concern like she didn't realize what was gonna what was going on It's confusing around that so there's a disassociation for me In terms of understanding any Empathy anything that's going on in in this other person's head. He's literally confused by it. It's like why Why wouldn't she know What's gonna happen? Why wouldn't she be responding as I would respond? So he's he's lacking in two types of of empathy here and there are two big bits of empathy One is emotional empathy and when it's cognitive empathy emotional empathy Is when you feel the same thing as somebody else often at the same time cognitive empathy is when you can recognize An emotion that somebody's feeling I don't feel sad But I go oh, I think they're feeling sad right now and I can think about it He can't do either of those things. He's not feeling sad for her and he isn't able to even Think somebody else would feel fear or feel something or do something else He's lacking in the two big buckets of of emotion there So again, that leads us strongly down down a path to an antisocial Personality there and and I would steer around Paranoia, which again why at the start when when he was diagnosed with that I kind of go look not that I have those those qualifications people way more M and myself would have done that but I wonder why I wonder why they would have hit on that at that particular point I'm not sure. Uh, greg what are you going on this one? How's it going with them? I didn't want to burp on it. So anyway I'm glad I'm last on this to mark because I'm gonna tell everything you give all said together back together because this guy Is we always talk about a mask this guy has just full bore grabbed his mask and thrown it off He has no idea he's done it even either that or maybe he's just not smart enough to realize it But when we talk about psychopath psychopath 101 is they only see people in the way those people affect them We say psychopaths have no feelings except for these emotions that are related to terror and those kinds of things Scott that's the thing you always bring up. Well, if those two things true Let's start there and say they can't feel when another person feels this guy just said hey look at me I'm a psychopath because he he illustrates for the first time as he's telling a story fluidly Which we say is honesty and truthfulness And emphatically what is he illustrating about? I stabbed her. I did this I did that There's not a single element and chase you started with talking about it's about him There's not a single element of any of these people Nothing about the person that he's doing this stuff to when the gun was pulled out the knife came off of her It's not because he's being passive in trying to soften in my he just doesn't know it matters So he's saying, you know, I did this and I did that this happened that happened And then I had just gone through a horrible experience with a roommate. That's feelings. That's his feelings He's telling you what he felt. I just gone through all this.  He killed again. It's just another object. He can't tell the difference I think what we just saw is this guy just grabbed his mask and threw it in the trash And not even have any idea. He's done that This is a great one. That's all I got Oh man, that was good. I have to think about that one On one occasion Kemper picked up two roommates in berkeley And that first killing in may of 72 When that gun was pulled out I launched it out for it. I hit it under my leg out of sight Parallel to my to my leg in the seat It was something that had been thought out in fantasy acted out felt out hundreds of times Before it ever happened Kemper drove them at gunpoint to a secluded area near a park He took one of them into the woods leaving the second girl tied in the car I just gone through a horrible experience with her roommate stabbing her And I was in shock because of that. I couldn't believe that it was that way And I'm walking back there bewildered. I got a killer. I can't let her go.  What are you doing? She pulled back and she gasped And I think whoa, I don't want her to know what happened I said your friend got smart with me. She'd been getting really smart with me a lot, but I never hit her I killed her, but I didn't hit her I said your friend got smart with me and I hit her. I think I broke her nose. You better come help She's about to die. Why don't why does she have to know that? I couldn't deal with telling her that And when I attacked her she didn't at first realize what was happening. It didn't go through She had very heavy coveralls on it knocked her right up into the lid of the car But it didn't pierce the clothing So Wasn't that swell a knife anyway I went out and bought a pawn shop huge knife And uh I kept on it just mindlessly attacking. She falls back into the trunk I just killed a young woman. I slammed down the lid of the trunk She isn't dead. She's dying And I panicked I thought I just locked the car keys in there because I can't find them in my pocket Oh my god, I locked him in the trunk I'm kicking on the trunk lid and yanking on her Oh, no, I don't believe this I started to run and I tripped over the gun that I'd had in my pants that I had totally forgotten was there I stopped I said stop and think I collected my wits Check all your pockets.  I stuck it back in my pants now remembering I had one I checked all my pockets and there's the keys in the back pocket. I never put them in my back pocket Everyone makes mistakes and that's What we have to hope for the more mistakes they make the better better their chances I thought I was pretty slick And women stripped all over myself that first two murders The first 24 hours there were three clear times I should have been busted and I wasn't because three different individuals or three different groups of people got scared And minded their own business And looked the other way All right, mark. What do you got? Uh, yeah, so this is really interesting because because now we get a story of panic So what comes out of this for me is is serial killers are not criminal masterminds in in every case We've got somebody who Even for them when they deviate from a usual behavior, there's a cascade Of other stuff that happens. So he's tripping over himself Doesn't know where he's put his keys and he has to get his wits back together What small amount of wit there might there may well be and get himself Taught it out with this. It's just worth remembering for all of us in all our behaviors Once we start to deviate from our usual patterns There is a cascade of mistakes that happen every time I lose my keys just like him every time I lose my keys I'm like ah, okay so what was my My behavior deviance from baseline that's caused me to put my keys in a different place than I always put them Because I always put them in one place. So something else down the line has changed. Anyway interesting for me But here's where he now goes with this.  Maybe he has a has a point But maybe it's like well, you know, you're not that bright You're just hoping that everybody else is just a little less bright Than you and that's how you get away with it for all of us If you see something say something if you see stuff that is out of Baseline if you see some behavior prove this person wrong and you know Intervene in some way if it's safe for you get somebody else to intervene call some kind of authority and go Hey, something odd is going on because he might well be right.   What do you got on this one? Yeah, let's talk about that for a second He says they got scared and minded their own business and looked the other way If you live in a house with several people and you walk by a full trash can You might decide right then to snatch it up take it outside, but it's more likely For most humans that you'll assume someone else might walk by and do it in a few minutes If you live by yourself, you do not have these tendencies because it's just you and this is called diffusion of responsibility It's also called the bystander effect And it's a very scary social phenomenon where we're less likely to help people the more people that are around us In 1964 in queens a woman was stabbed to death in front of 38 witnesses People didn't call the police because they just assumed someone else would do it. These were real witnesses And we have a tendency to do what the crowd's doing and it's 10 times more powerful To do what the crowd's doing than you might actually think We also have a tendency to assume somebody else is going to take care of situations when there's multiple people around This is the reason these people in this case Minded their business so to speak and this is a critical thing to teach to your kids everybody you know and Just knowing about this alone can induce its effects on your future situations There's no vaccine for this but this is as close as you can get to just understanding this Could save your life or somebody else's in the future greg Yeah, I think when we look at military people we typically think of people who run toward danger same with cops Same with firefighters. That's a trait that you either have when you go there or it's taught to you You can teach yourself any of those traits. You can also teach yourself to be suspicious My wife will tell you when i'm driving along the road and i live in rural georgia Now see someone looking around at the trunk of their car and you're at the edge of something I'm like, well, that's where they got in their trunk before we go much further So I slow down because you never know people get thrown out all the time So get your head clear around what is possible doesn't mean it's always going and don't always think people are criminals But get your head around what is possible. I think it's natural chase you say it all the time People think other people think what they think it's not true. This guy doesn't think what you think you just saw it So pay attention everything he says in this video is about his interim process Nothing new my gun. I stumbled over my gun. I locks my keys You don't hear anything about was the young woman dead in the trunk or she brank banging and screaming because he doesn't care He cares about his his feelings and what's going on inside his head And he's praying terror and scott made less assumed that we're right The only things they feel are those adrenaline feel he's got that going right now in spades So he probably is all together going there what this interviewer has done very well When you're embracing a narcissist is kind of admiring ask him questions that make him feel good about talking This is right in here where I might lean into him just because I enjoy Getting what I want out of the conversation I might lean in and start you do a pride and you go down and say well That's because you're stupid and if anybody had any common sense you would have been caught a long time ago Now you get to see what's behind the mask for real They get really angry when you prod them that way and then finally just as you think about Looking at this guy and you think about everything he's saying here Nothing is changing body language wise mark. You're dead on this is just there's Scott you said all the time. There's nobody in there. This looks like nobody in there. Scott. What do you got? Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent at the top there when he says I just killed a young woman. She isn't dead. She's dying All these things just sound sound odd everything in here is isn't the way it should be and doesn't sound the way it should sound I get the feeling he's talking about himself in the third person the whole time like he watched this happen And we and I said that before we've all said that before we're not seeing the facial expressions to the extent we should be seeing them On on someone who's who's wired properly I guess you'd say but he's more animated about describing how he thought he locked his keys in the trunk They did about Stabbing the girl So about about or about killing either one of them. He's the most worried I think that gave him an adrenaline rush when he thought he was going to get caught the thing got a buzz from that And his head's moving side to side more deeply than it has up to this point There's and like like you guys were saying his eyebrows are up a little bit further His cadence speeds up and his tone is strong And his his volume is up everything sounds Like he's being excited, but we're not seeing it on him like we should be seeing it. It's really it's really odd It's really odd at that point. I agree with you on that. I just killed a young woman. I slammed down the lid of the trunk She isn't dead. She's dying And I panicked I thought I just locked the car keys because I can't find them in my pocket Oh my god, I locked him in the trunk. I'm kicking on the trunk lid and yanking on it Oh, no, I don't believe this I started to run and I tripped over the gun that I'd had in my pants that I had totally forgotten was there I stopped I said stop and think I collected my wits Check all your pockets.  I stuck it back in my pants now remembering I had one I checked all my pockets and there's the keys in the back pocket. I never put them in my back pocket Everyone makes mistakes and that's What we have to hope for the more mistakes they make the better better their chances I thought I was pretty slick And went and stripped all over myself that first two murders The first 24 hours there were three clear times I should have been busted and I wasn't Because three different individuals or three different groups of people got scared And minded their own business And looked the other way My mother worked at the campus and I had an a sticker on my car An obvious access day or night to the campus. I was picking up some very lovely young women You know what we were talking about as we're driving around almost as often as not This guy that's going around doing this stuff and the second they started talking that they didn't realize it But they were getting a free ride I couldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole. I swear You know, but they'd be telling me what all about this guy and they're comparing notes and Speculating on what he looks like how he carries himself. Why he's doing this stuff telling me about it So how come they get in a car with somebody at that time? She judged me not to be that guy I didn't look like it It's getting easier to do. I was getting better at it. I was getting less detectable. I started flaunting that invisibility A human head two of them at night in front of my mother's residence with her at home My neighbors at home upstairs their picture window open the curtains open 11 o'clock at night the lights are on all they have to do is walk by look out and I've had it All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, that's a good one this interviewer is feeding his ego and he's now getting the getting the chance to deliver the message He came to deliver. I was good at it. He's talking about the drug now scott. You were dead on earlier This drug he's addicted to is adrenaline and he's he's talking about now he's talking about going in there and doing all this and You heard the ax he takes he even moves to The most cliche thing I've ever seen as he starts to pontificate as he puts his Thumb and finger against his face like the thinker so he can tell you exactly what he thinks This he came here planning for this.  He sees people as part of the problem. He's crowdsourcing his guilt I'll leave it at that and say Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I think I think you're right, but but let me advocate On his behalf if I may A lesson which is important for us all Which is he's kind of correct in saying that You can't tell who somebody is from just how they look You can't go on that first assumption behavior And behavior analysis is not hey that person looks okay We've got to know what is their behavior and we want to look at what are the big patterns of behavior And certainly when it comes to antisocial criminal acts Just to say they're not likely to be super smart. So it's about access It's about who's got really easy simple access and he gives us Something really important here, which is to say look at that sticker on the front of my vehicle That gets me access to the people that are easy prey For me And so that's what we've always got to look out for in behaviors What are the stickers that these people have what have they got access to if we're looking for somebody who might Come up against us and our family. Oh, hey, who has easy access Who's already in the vicinity now?  You get a free ride. You don't get killed if you feed his ego You know as scott's been calling it there if you feed that gap He's got a gap in him something that needs he's got a hunger. It needs filling There is a void in there and if you fill that void You don't get killed and that's really Really key because you if you can build his sense of self and his idea out there is my mother Killed my sense of self. I don't think that's probably wholly accurate But he's saying the void is there because of my mum my mum's to blame I think there may be some elements of that, but it's not the whole story It's more complex than that But if you fill that void, you're getting a free ride. You don't get killed So I wonder what it was that triggered him with some of his other victims Not victim blaming here, but looking at the analysis of this. What was it that took away From him that meant this person has to be destroyed or these two people have to be destroyed It's a possibility. There was some trigger there Scott, what do you got on this one? All right. My thought on that was he was just saying that so he would look better I'm not so sure that that that even happened at that point. He may have picked somebody up and that might have been The quote-unquote road. He went down, but maybe Maybe that didn't happen. He was just trying to make himself. He created a situation where he said where he looks like he has feelings So but he doesn't have any except when those things happen. He can feel things I don't think he has the empathy in him To pull that off Is what is at is what I think and he likes showing you he's the person that knows what's going on And he's the guy in charge and he knows things that nobody else knows Like and he likes putting that on display like he does in this story He likes letting you know that and we talked about almost getting caught. He blames the three people That let him get away with it. He blames. It's their fault that that he didn't get caught It's their fault and the interviewer said, well, why did you? Why did she get in the car with you? He says she judged me not to be that guy. It didn't look like him Well, that's like when Greg was saying his fingers up here. He's doing the classic. Let me tell you something. Here's what I think That's that's so over the top, you know, because he doesn't know how to act Quite often Psychopaths will watch other people behave and they'll start behaving like that Especially if there's some type of emotion put in with it And I think he's seen somebody else do this and thought that was the thing to do on one of these police shows he's been watching As he goes through all this his posture straightened up his head is pulled in and That posture and everything happened like that. This one just a little smirk Like I know more than anyone else on any of this which he does Because he was there and did all that but he he pauses and he holds that because he I think that's where he His ego goes, yeah, this is all about me at this point That looks so cool because I know all these things all this stuff happened.  What do you got? Yeah, I totally agree with you guys Scott. I agree. I don't think this happened I really don't think this happened. I think at this point there's Starting to creep in there's a desire to be caught I think he wants to be caught by somebody now. I think this might just be he's talking about how they're perceiving the situation So he's pointing at his head. Maybe just referring to how they viewed something And I'll give you an example right now on why we might hear so much of this dissociative language And if you guys will entertain it We'll do it as a group here Or you just to visualize yourself the last time you took a shower And our brain's default to visualizing ourselves in third person for meaningless Scenarios like that if you visualize yourself during a recent emotional Encounter or maybe the last time Something emotional happened. We're more likely to visualize that situation in first person So what I'm saying is this has no stakes It's not a big deal and it's something that may be potentially a little bit exciting for him But it's still one of the situations where there's a gopro and he's viewing that entire situation through that gopro lens So it's kind of a third person visualization because it wasn't a huge event My mother worked at the campus and I had an a sticker on my car and obvious access day or night to the campus I was picking up some very lovely young women You know what we were talking about as we're driving around almost as often as not This guy is going around doing this stuff and the second they started talking that they didn't realize it, but they were getting a free ride I couldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole. I swear You know, but they'd be telling me what all about this guy and they're comparing notes Speculating on what he looks like how he carries himself.  I was getting better at it. I was getting less detectable. I started flaunting that invisibility A human head two of them at night in front of my mother's residence with her at home My neighbors at home upstairs their picture window open the curtains open 11 o'clock at night the lights are on All they have to do is walk by and look out and I've had it Why did you keep the heads? What did you and why did you keep something out of my childhood? um I could put it on an incident. I mean my father chopping the heads off of our two pet chickens and my mother insisting that I eat them for dinner Uh, you know that we could say it was something that simple. I don't think it was Now my dad heads out back with that hatchet I got on my bike and I rode right to try to stop it. I remember that I got on the bike rode around the block I was crying I haven't talked about that for a lot of years I'm sure that may have implemented something that may have gotten something rolling But along fantasy lines, but it took a lot of years of development along those lines to really get off But how are you able to in one minute? have someone's in your hands And very shortly there anything through a fantasy However, that would relate to that head And then five minutes later I'd put that away and There'd be a knock on the door and I'd put it away And answer the door and the landlady would be there and we'd discuss it discuss what reality Her reality Not mine Some people go crazy at that point. I felt it. It was one hell of a tweak I mean to just flip out and not know where I was To be walking up the stairs with a camera bag That belonged to a young woman that had hurt in it Walking up to my apartment passed a happy young couple coming down the stairs Who nodded and smiled at me As they went by good evening And they're going out on a date where I'd love to be going And I'm aware of both of these realities and the distance between those two is so dramatic so amazing so violent That at really I could feel the wheels squeaking inside that was really pulling on it and I imagine at that point some people break But I didn't literally go insane. I didn't get lost All right, greg what he got Yeah, so he's going to try to put his mask back on now. He goes to that soppy sincerity I mean he this is his His thing to trade he comes in with us going out of his way to try to be helpful He's telling you how it went and why it happened When they asked him for the question about what in your history could have caused this horrendous act he says Well, hold on maybe I can come up with and he goes into internal voice one of the first times we've seen him do it He starts thinking of an answer and then he has that little nervous smile nervous laugh Even he doesn't believe it listen and you can tell his cadence shifts at that recall and you can tell this wasn't scripted It's very different than the way your answers earlier What he does start to say then is this thing about these chickens and I don't believe that at all as a case I think he's just trying to make something up and you hear him Soft pedal as he works his way along. This is his mask coming back out and he's trying to be helpful If I really wanted to get rid of that mask, I just poke on him and say I don't believe you I think it's in eight.  This cover has been how he's gotten here We always say the organism does what made the organism successful Women wouldn't have gotten the car with him if he were clearly somebody that he's that's horrible to look at Although people are really bad judges a character mark to your point and think hey that guy looks okay That's you can never tell a serial killer. That's always the joke, you know, I'm dressing as one for halloween I'm just not going to wear anything different. That's how people go about it So we do see him do a sacred space where he covers his hands and he starts to rub But I think that may be b-real because it doesn't seem to tie in Meaning b-real is something they shot somewhere else and they're just showing him rubbing his hands But we call that sacred space because I take control of my space by creating a barrier And then do something that I do all the time to make it feel comfortable It one of my favorite things he doesn't hear is when he gets to this place where he says Exactly what he's talking about horror and how horrible and how tough and how close he could He does a pause for effect a dramatic pause. It would be like me saying casually walking along and saying I was having dinner with joe biden And That's for effect when you do that. You're doing it intentionally. You're hoping to get a Some kind of feedback and he didn't that's part of his power play. He isn't finished with power playing yet He's trying to say look I went through horror and it didn't affect me I didn't lose it where other people would he says some people break but I didn't I think he's enjoying his power over the situation chase. What do you got? yeah, so just Just going away from this video for a minute. So at like the background of what we're actually seeing here And I think we're looking at someone who appears to have been injected with beliefs about men from a very young age And this tremendous force this desire to escape that Seems to have given this archetype monster That his mother installed in him even more power And I'm not by any means an expert on this case here, but this storyline seems so Honest that this is what I would assume is what we're really seeing He became the monster that he was told he was I'm sure he was broken to begin with And in cases like this we tend to see a trend exactly like this Someone pretends to be incredibly self-aware Then they take responsibility for actions and no responsibility for intent And that's kind of what we're really seeing here I'm taking all the responsibility for physical actions zero for intent And and causes mark. What do you think? Yeah, really interesting Um, I could put it on an incident. I could say it was something that simple So he even outs himself to go it isn't that simple and it isn't about the incident about the chickens I think I think those chickens may have had their heads chopped off somewhere in his life as I put here This is not a silence of the lamb's story. Now. Why I bring that up is in that particular situation Lecter tells Clarice that her whole motivation around her relationship and chasing after him Is to do with an incident in her childhood around There goes Greg never likes me talking about about Hannibal Lecter. He's he's he's gone off gone off to sulk about that clearly Yeah, so so so Lecter says to Clarice that Everything motivates back again everything motivates back to to this childhood experience Of course, the great thing is in Lecter's case, you never really hear about his background But he uncovers her I think this is what he's trying to do here not because he's seen science of the lambs I think this is way before probably science of the lambs, but but it's a it's a psychological trope It's a psychological idea that you can trace everything back To one event and and go here's the cascade that comes from that and he says it himself I could put it down to that We could say he's suggesting no don't even bother with that. It is more More complex than that. He then talks about the compartments of of of reality. There's his reality where he's got In fact, I won't I won't say that because I think we'll take that out of the out of the video There's his his reality where he has evidence On him of a crime and then there's the other reality of two people's You know waving hello to him and he talks about the massive distance between those two things Well unwittingly He's absolutely telling us about the disassociation that he feels that he cannot put these two things Together they don't live in the same place for you and I if we were in his position Yes, we would break we would break because we wouldn't be able to hold those two things Together we wouldn't be able to hold those two moments together of of one very pro-social act and one very Antisocial act all in one moment. It would be impossible for us to to hold He says other people would break. He says, you know, he didn't flip out. He didn't go insane Well, maybe because you have a personality disorder in the first place and you don't really need Any insanity? It's it's such a a strong level. You don't need to be mad to be doing what you're doing Scott, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I think the chicken story didn't happen and then when he adds that qualifier I haven't talked about this in years. I think you're right, Greg He went right back and said what can I do here? I think I'm not here. So I'll Excuse me. Here's how I'll do that The part where he's discussing of realities discussing the differences of reality He talks about That with the landlord and all that We're not psychologists. None of us have a phd in psychology None of us have ever done have ever been in that game We sort of are in where we are now talking about that but we we're not involved in that But after all the reading stuff I've done, this is where when he started talking about the differences in reality That's why I went at the very beginning and thought This looks like a paranoid schizophrenic. He goes to show you what do I know? But that's what gave me the the thought about that was was the differences in reality as he's discussing those And you guys have covered everything else. So I'll leave it there Yeah Well, he was he's been institutionalized since he was 15 and talked to many many many Psychologists and you can see he's kind of a sponge And it makes sense Why did you keep the heads? What did you and why did you keep something out of my childhood? Um I could put it on an incident. I mean my father chopping the heads off of our two pet chickens and my mother insisting that I eat them for dinner Uh, you know that we could say it was something that simple. I don't think it was Now my dad heads out back with a hatchet I got on my bike and I rode right to try to stop it. I remember that I got on the bike rode around the block I was crying I haven't talked about that for a lot of years I'm sure that may have implemented something that may have gotten something rolling But along fantasy lines, but it took a lot of years of development along those lines to really get off But how are you able to in one minute Have someone's In your hand And very shortly there anything through a fantasy However, that would relate to that head And then five minutes later. I put that away and There'd be a knock on the door and I'd put it away And answer the door and the landlady would be there and we'd discuss Discuss what reality Her reality Not mine Some people go crazy at that point. I felt it. It was one hell of a tweak I mean to just flip out and not know where I was To be walking up the stairs with a camera bag That belonged to a young woman that had her in it Walking up to my apartment passed a happy young couple coming down the stairs Who nodded and smiled at me As they went by good evening And they're going out on a date where I'd love to be going And I'm aware of both of these realities and the distance between those two is so dramatic so amazing so violent That really I could feel the wheels squeaking inside that was really pulling on it And I imagine at that point some people break, but I didn't Literally go insane. I didn't get lost They'd buy me a beer. I'd buy them a beer Casual relationships, but that was I was poking around a little bit trying to find some things out I knew they wouldn't be privy to hot information But there were some things that were bothering me like were there any speculations on how they were dying Did the cops like you? Like I said a friendly nuisance. I got in the way And it was deliberate Again friendly nuisances are dismissed How did you get the knowledge to outsmart the police? Watching television Believe it or not Joseph Wambaugh police story got some tremendous insights into not just The gimmicks the actual things the tidbits that you would pick up from their procedures But the mechanics behind that the logic behind it Was I would not allow myself to walk into even a potential trap of behavior And one of those was talking about those crimes too much To people initiating conversations about that All right chase. What do you got? I think it's interesting here that we're hearing a person describe themselves as cunning intelligent self-aware And he accidentally I think Calls out the precise reason for his lack of responsibility for the intention of his crimes He says he would never allow himself to be caught in a trap of behavior Which we know he is Wearing a mask for this interview, but if this actual mask was actual physical These words would be on it a trap of behavior Because this is what he's describing His crimes are all of these crimes are him getting caught in a trap of his own behavior And he's calling this thing a trap of behavior. So I think that is extremely telling I think this is maybe an unconscious revelation something that's coming out Greg, what do you think? Yeah, a couple of things if you had a question about whether he has a grasp on reality He certainly has a grasp on reality when he says that kind of thing We're a trap of behavior because he knows that certain things get you in trouble with the cops He is doing exactly he's showing us exactly how he behaved with the cops that overly helpful friendly nuisance That's exactly the same really try to take with the cops You see him putting it trump does this when he's talking about putting a finer point on something He does the same thing when he was talking about getting the information. It actually says I was too smart No, you just nobody thought you were that guy. I don't know if he was that smart But this guy gets it understands that he's a narcissist and plays right up to him And he just starts to play naivete and tell me more tell me more tell me more Which is an elicitation technique where you pretend not to understand And people who are narcissists love to tell you more it works every time Scott. What do you got? Yeah, again, I'm not a psychologist. None of us have phd's in psychology But I would put all my chips on him being a psychopath. That's what we're looking at the classic clinical narcissist Everything shows up in and from about the second or third video on For me, that's what we're looking at when he's talking about hanging out with the cops and and asking questions If you hang out with cops and there's a serial killer And they don't know you but all of a sudden they start seeing you around And you're talking about serial killers and what's happening with the case They're gonna ask you about that.  They go in there This guy is asking me a lot of questions. Let's talk to him.  He's coming on like he's smarter than everybody else They would have put that together very quickly that he's doing that Think about it somebody if that was your job to find serial killers And that's what the most popular thing to be doing then at that time Was going on and somebody you didn't know came up started asking about serial killers and this guy was acting odd socially like he Says he was and he's saying he was being odd and being a nuisance like that on purpose Not this guy in colombo at all. He just doesn't know how to get along with people He said that in the beginning And so I don't think they like to I think they blew him off If he even did ask about that because if he had gone into and had been asking questions They would have nailed him right then There would there was a tough man. Those are red flags Keep an eye on him and they would have caught him. I think earlier for all that I'll let rest there mark where you go at one point scott. You might have gotten away with it one time But when you're six nine, you're gonna get a task Just been asking questions around Yeah Yeah Yeah, very soon it would be who's that that six nine guy who keeps coming in the Bison beers and talking about the murders. Yeah, it begs belief It's it's him having a narcissistic fantasy Uh, it's because it's totally contradictory. Uh, I go in I buy them a beer. I'm friendly, but I'm a bit of a nuisance Oh, but you know, you don't want to fall into that trap of being the person who's kind of showing up at the funerals And you're doing exactly that. You can't have a and not a at the same time His logic has a and not a at the same time.  Well, actually big massive gap In his life. They'd buy me a beer. I'd buy them a beer Casual relationships, but that was I was poking around a little bit trying to find some things out I knew they wouldn't be privy to hot information, but there were some things that were bothering me Like were there any speculations on how they were dying? Did the cops like you? Like I said a friendly nuisance. I got in the way And it was deliberate Again friendly nuisances are dismissed How did you get the knowledge to outsmart the police? Watching television Believe it or not Joseph Wambaugh police story got some tremendous insights into not just The gimmicks the actual things the tidbits that you would pick up from their procedures But the mechanics behind that the logic behind it Was I would not allow myself to walk into even a potential trap of behavior And one of those was talking about those crimes too much To people initiating conversations about that There was a memorial service for two of the victims. Yes Well, you attempted to go yes but I'd uh seen one too many episodes of one too many crime shows where that is one of the available resources for clues Tracking down the attenders tape one man taking pictures of the people there to eliminate as potential suspects Some police department now. They actually came to your house to pick up a handgun sheriffs representatives one of their detectives was Upset because he heard I had a 44 magnum pistol And was a convicted man. He came to take the gun away and it was on uh, he and his sergeant detective They were staking out the wrong house.  They come over and asked me about Excuse me, sir Do you know who lives in this house across the street here? Well, that house was 609 Harriet He crossed back over to this side in the 609 Ord And they were looking for me and didn't even know that so I mean Bad news. Well any rate we walk into the house to have them ask my mother about this other house And I'm saying hey, which 609 are you looking for and they said are you at camp? Yes, and it goes on and uh I needed to find out what they were looking for the murder weapon the 22 automatic Or the 44 magnum and I don't want to advertise that I've got a whole bunch of guns Uh So I made a comment just to divine between the two And I said just quite a little gun, isn't it and he retorted a 44 magnum. I hope so And I said okay because that loaded 22 was under the front seat and guaranteed me an arrest right on the spot And 44 was in the trunk I forgot that I took him in the house. We went into my bedroom and the Closet door is open and I have a high powered rifle with a scope on it. All right mark. What do you got? uh, yeah, just um There's a piece of elicitation in in this uh and and greg. I think you might call it a provocative statement And and so I just highlight it because I think he's actually quite quite good He uses a question. It's quite a little gun Isn't it it's quite a little gun isn't it and and that elicits from uh, the police officer Exactly what gun uh is being looked for The the reason why it's an interesting question is uh, it could go either way It's it's enough of a statement that's open enough that it could go either way That you could get a bit of information from that. That's all I got on that one Uh chase. What do you got? Yep, I agree with you and you took my I had the same note But let me expand on this a little bit. We we as human beings have a natural need to correct the record And we have a natural need to correct inaccurate information when it's presented to us And that is one thing uh in my classes I teach uh as an example like go find out how much someone makes for a living in a grocery store And you walk up to that person and say like, oh, I've just read an article You guys got bumped up to $22 an hour. That's fantastic. And they're like, what? No, we're we get 1550 So you get information Sensitive information by asking less questions and I don't think this happened I don't think it happened But this technique is called elicitation if you want to learn like from the master of this by the book called Confidential by John Nolan. We've got we're not going to get checks from him But I hope you get the book it is where I Start in my path down that course and it was the that book is kind of the foundation for the current intelligence operatives course that exists today greg Yeah, john is the master. I took his train the trainer course to be able to teach for him He didn't allow just you to just read his stuff and teach He's a fantastic guy I call him one of the most dangerous people you'll ever meet because he is so casual in conversation and collects information just Wild wild information Just like chase just said about salaries rate hike increases all that kind of thing If you've never heard of him look him up John Nolan And if you can't find the book put a note over to us send us an email because I know him I know he's got some and maybe we can get those into a box for you Um, okay, not that we will buy the books or ship them to you. Let's not mistake that but I can point you in the right direction I know john know where we're to find him Okay, so that's sorry when he says he's sorry is a feigned sorry sorrow sorrow And you see him withdraws lips Compressing some kind of emotion or controlling some kind of emotion. Well, there's no chin involvement There's no no chin boss. There's no grief muscle. So I don't know what the hell he's covering You tell me tell me down below what you think he's covering I think he sees what other people have done and maybe that's what he's doing But his demeanor does change And he something in there. I'm with you chase He increases his cadence and his cadence and his brow furrows when he's talking about this thing It looks awkward. It doesn't look like someone really really telling you a story. That's true.  I'm with you mark. What do you got? Uh, Ben Uh, oh Scott, what do you got? I agree. I I think who showed up at his house. I think they did is probably his parole officer I think they were checking in on him and I think the rest of it is Because that didn't happen now that maybe They showed up, but I don't think they asked him about a gun He was smart and cool enough to work his way out of that and get away with something He keeps telling how cool he is and this if we go back through all these videos don't think it happened So I got You can imagine him pulling up to pick pick those girls up up on the campus and be like Where are you going? There was a memorial service for two of the victims Well, you attempted to go yes but I'd uh Seen one too many episodes of one too many crime shows where that is one of the available resources for clues Tracking down the attenders tape one man taking pictures of the people there to eliminate as potential suspects Some police department now. They actually came to your house to pick up a handgun sheriffs representatives one of their detectives was Upset because he heard I had a 44 magnum pistol And was a convicted man. He came to take the gun away and it was on uh, he and his sergeant detective They were staking out the wrong house.  They come over and asked me about Excuse me, sir Do you know who lives in this house across the street here? Well, that house was 609 Harriet He crossed back over to this side into 609 Ord And they were looking for me and didn't even know that so, I mean Bad news. Well any rate we walk into the house to have them ask my mother about this other house And I'm saying hey, which 609 are you looking for and they said are you at camp? Yes, and it goes on and uh I needed to find out what they were looking for the murder weapon the 22 automatic Or the 44 magnum and I don't want to advertise that I've got a whole bunch of guns Uh So I made a comment just to divine between the two And I said just quite a little gun, isn't it and he retorted a 44 magnum. I hope so And I said okay because that loaded 22 was under the front seat and guaranteed me an arrest right on the spot And 44 was in the trunk I forgot that I took him in the house. We went into my bedroom and the Closet door is open and I have a high-powered rifle with a scope on it I knew a week before she died I was gonna kill her and she went out to a party. She got soused. She came home Went to sleep. I was woken up by that. I got came out I walked up to her bed She's laying there reading a paperback As many thousands of nights before And she said oh, I suppose you're gonna want to sit up all night and talk now I looked at her I said no.  I've looked at it that way I mean that intensely that honestly That hurts Because I'm not a lizard. I'm not from under a rock. I came out of my mother And in a rage I went right back in For seven years. She said I haven't had so the man because of you my murderous son is one of our arguments And I humiliated her So there six young woman dead because of the way she raises her son and the way her son is raised the way he grows up And what's her closing words?  Same thing that kept them from ever being friends.  It's a very painful process. It isn't rational And I've got to still live with that. All right, greg what do you got? Yeah, now he's back to his story about the monster that created the monster. He disparages the victim We always say that's a bad sign. I mean he's admitting to doing it But when a person is not admitting often they will disparage the victim to try to push Blame back on them. He just outright does he said she caused this problem There's no emotion in his voice whatsoever until he gets the point where she says something negative to him When that happens he rolls his eyes to try to contain emotion and then actually gets emotional And that's around or you just want to sit up and talk Is that real possibly because if you pay attention to him trying to control it He's chin engaging in grief and then that lower lip quivering it looks real, but that's all about him It's not about her. I don't think it's about feeling grief for killing her. It's about she picked on him And that's what I think it is Um, I don't think any of this has anything to do with her and then he says I'm not an animal And then he it's back to her. She raised me. She did this I think we're gonna find that if you got a chance to talk to him and you and you Pull the scab off and started poking you get him pretty damn angry if you said look You are an animal is and this is where it's at But finally then when he says I wish I had He does a hmm sound he does lip compression. That's more of him masking and Then all he's doing is just trying to hide Why he did it. I don't think he did it because of her. I think he was enraged that probably happened I don't think he had this moment of epiphany. I'm killing these girls because my mother I just don't don't see it. I think he's doing all the right words saying all the right things And maybe he had a moment where he had remorse and came out of it. But Coming out of the cold don't know so much Mark what he got Yeah, it's interesting isn't because you know, there would be one kind of analysis that goes.   No, he he he just isn't able to inhibit His desires, which is you know one day He wants to kill some young women the next day. It's like no, all right my mom and i'm uninhibited Around that. I don't think it's as grand as he makes out though. I agree Greg for me. There is some true emotion there. It's a big deviation from his baseline, which is almost doing nothing And we have got hard swallow the concern the eye roll as part of the impersonation I think I think the eye roll could be protecting yourself from the emotion or it could be part of the the The dis the disdain that his mother may well have showed him but but there's and there's contempt there Chim boss. There is some blocking There's this fist clench that we haven't seen from him before So so it's all out of baseline could be deception could be truth I would be going it's more on the truth now. Does that mean well It kind of destroys the whole psychopath thing because there he is having having having feelings No for him. It could be rather like Um telling a joke in that in that you can see how how well a joke is constructed And you might be able to laugh at it.  This is a release of of tension It may well look like feeling and emotional to us and certainly has some elements of that I would say But he's not building up those tensions for the same reason that you and I might he's building up those tensions for other Other reasons mainly to do with himself Not his mother. I would build up tensions around my mother because I have a relationship with her You know a loving relationship with her He doesn't he doesn't so his tensions build up for another reason. Anyway, how'd that make sense? Chase, what do you got on this one? Right at the beginning of this clip. There's an unusual head shake It's nodding and then starts shaking right at the beginning, which I thought was unusual Well, I'm not going to pretend to even know what that means, but it's definitely outside of his baseline And the instant he covers his mouth Is what looks like when someone has a spontaneous emotional recall his eyes move down into his right with Perfectly unison with the rest of his body movement And there's a mixture of contempt and anger For his mother and it gets even stronger the more he's putting himself into the present moment of this memory It the contempt and the anger gets stronger and stronger And there's a there's a slight tongue jut in this video Right at the word paperback right when she's talked or he's saying she's reading a paperback as she always does because that's Stupid of course because nobody should be doing that Because that's what bad people do And we see that distaste wanting to To spit it out so to speak So this is a a rare video where you're going to see this actual emotional breakdown and I think that Fear and anger are almost one in the exact same emotions. And I think we're seeing those at the same time here so typically one of my college professors in psychology said that All patients will either have emotions rooted in love or emotions rooted in fear And everything is a derivative of those two things. Some people need more or less of one or the other And you know, we're seeing that here for sure Scott, what do you got? All right, I see what you're saying about the beginning in that head thing I think that's when he sees that path that he's going to go down and talk about his mother I think that because I think I think maybe the stress starts building on just a little bit That's why that it increases a little bit more because we haven't really seen that you're right up at this point His voice tone his diction his timbre everything seems normal compared to his baseline everything we've seen up at this point And then he breaks like that. I think you're right chase That we're seeing all the things that say that's real and I think it's about himself And and to your point mark, it's about a stress release as well all that pent up stress Here's the part I found interesting and and I can see why he would say this but he said His mother referred to him as her murderous son I think and as you go as As training detectives and training police officers as you go you get to know them You talk to them and you see how they start solving these problems they come into and it'll be sometimes the the weirdest things how they'll put together Put things together But it sounds to me if I was going to think along those lines I think she called him out on it. I think she said you're probably the one killing all these people Because it was so easy for him to kill his grandparents And it was no big deal for him to do they want to see how they felt I think during this conversation that they had when she was calling him her murderous son She said he did that a lot. I bet she finally got around to saying and I'll bet you're the guy killing all these girls I'll bet you that that that's what I think happened and that's why I think he killed her I think he became enraged at that point once he once he he she threatened to tell on him And I think that's why I got so mad it ended up doing the the things that he did did to her That's my opinion.  I think something had to instigate that. I think that was her threatening him That instigated it Although he did the odd thing is he turned himself in later, which we'll talk about in here in just a couple minutes I knew a week before she died I was gonna kill her and she went out to a party. She got soused. She came home Went to sleep. I was woken up by that. I got came out I walked up to her bed She's laying there reading a paperback As many thousands of nights before And she said oh, I suppose you're gonna want to sit up all night and talk now I looked at her. I said no.  I've looked at it that way I mean that intensely that honestly That hurts because I'm not a lizard. I'm not from under a rock. I came out See Came out of my mother And in a rage I went right back in For seven years. She said I haven't had so the man because of you my murderous son is one of our arguments And I humiliated her So there you know Six young woman dead because of the way she raises her son and the way her son is raised the way he grows up And what's her closing words? I suppose you want to sit up all night and talk God, I don't I wish ahead Your grandmother and her daughter-in-law your mother were two women very important in your life And you killed them both Could you Say what they were like that led them to the same fate Same thing that kept them from ever being friends.  It's a very painful process. It isn't rational And I've got to still live with that. Why did you wind up giving yourself up? It had to stop It had to stop uh once my mother was dead. There was almost a cathartic process at that point I got physically ill right then When she died when I murdered her and once she was dead, there was no way I could back out I had backed down from giving up a thousand times You know I used to get drunk and go sit out in front of the sheriff's department in a parking lot across the street I wanted those little concrete parking berms and I just sit there and say No, I still can't The clanging doors I could still hear them No, because it'll never open again you know, so I I uh rationalized that to give up would be insane to give up would be crazy I'd be giving away my freedom and I don't need to But I look back on that and wish I had earlier when I was saying those things to myself The people who were later dead wouldn't be the regret that came later Would have not had to be Those people not things those people would still be with their families with their loved ones They would have their own families If I had had the courage to make that decision Instead of painting myself into the corner Where might you be if you'd never given in to the impulse to murder? Where might I be? If my parole had been successful, uh I believe I'd be married. I'd have children. I'd be heading toward my first grandchildren All right mark, what do you got? Yeah, so he signals towards regret and he signals towards Uh people being people and not things anymore. So what are we to make of that? Is it uh antisocial personality disorder reformed by the prison system? Well, of course, there's a whole industry around that this whole industry About going into prisons and and helping people out who have these personality disorders So, you know, I wouldn't want to malign a whole industry that that it wouldn't be a possibility or Or is it is this person? Been through that system has gotten a vocabulary together and is putting that forward and what we have here is still A child that throws murderous tantrums and more and more because it's not just about grandparents and and parents It's more than that But it does finally end in this this murderous tantrum that he that he throws I'm not going to say which one I which one it is could be either one of Either one of those I think it's probably the second one, but chase. What do you think? What do you got? Yep, I think this is the case of the dog that kills its abusive owner But now has nothing there to continue to feed it And I don't think he knew what to do without her And he kind of became the monster that she always told him that men were that he was Calling him a murderer his whole life Uh that stuff soaks in especially when it's from an authority figure whether you like him or hate him That stuff soaks into our skin And I'm not blaming this all on her at all. I mean, he's got all kinds of issues on his own But the mom certainly helped When we study placebos and how they affect the human body and the brain What is said makes a big difference about the placebo The appearance of the doctor whether or not the it's a pill or an injection and what color the pill is There's a hundred layers that play into this But I think that lends itself to understanding why he might have turned himself in is that he didn't have that force Anymore he didn't have that thing anymore in his life That's it. He didn't know what to do greg Yeah, I just have one line. No, I add a little bit to it. He says people not things Mark that's therapy talk. I mean this guy probably never heard those words before until somebody said you can't treat people like things Look this guy's smart enough to pick up that and take it and run with it More complex. I will say human beings are layers and layers and layers of things What happened when he was a kid who knows we'll get to that later But here the one thing to to note is he was living in his mother's house. I believe If you're living in your mother's house and she's suddenly gone you might turn yourself in because You don't have somewhere to live. I don't know his story I don't think he's this altruistic creature who suddenly came up with hey, I need to go turn myself in maybe felt remorse But and maybe he just felt like a dead end. No idea. I don't care Always seem to now is this is not a normal kind of a creature scott. What do you got?  What's he gonna say? He has no story. He has no nothing.  He has no where's he gonna do say oh, she's out of town So like that No, and especially since he's on parole, they're gonna check into that and they're gonna look in that room They're gonna look all over that house and see where she is when she doesn't show up after a while So I think he knew he was gonna get caught and that's why he turned himself in because they would be on him Maybe not really like maybe not that week But in a month and a half two months when nobody started from her friends work all that or is she prove it That's when he's going to get in trouble. So I think I'm going to follow the logic of Of detectives and say that's that's what I think would have would have happened And that's why he turned himself in because he knew there was no way out of at this point Why did you wind up giving yourself up? It had to stop It had to stop once my mother was dead. There was almost a cathartic process at that point I got physically ill right then When she died when I murdered her and once she was dead, there was no way I could back out I backed down from giving up a thousand times You know I used to get drunk and go sit out in front of the sheriff's department in a parking lot across the street On one of those little concrete parking berms. I just sit there and say No, I still can't The clanging doors I could still hear them No, because it'll never open again you know, so I Rationalized that to give up would be insane to give up would be crazy I'd be giving away my freedom and I don't need to But I look back on that and wish I had earlier when I was saying those things to myself The people who were later dead wouldn't be the regret that came later would have not had to be Those people not things those people would still be with their families with their loved ones They would have their own families If I had had the courage to make that decision Instead of painting myself into the corner Where might you be if you'd never given in to the impulse to murder? Where might I be? If my parole had been successful um I believe I'd be married. I'd have children. I'd be heading toward my first grandchildren Well, let's throw it around the room and talk about what we think we've seen and wrap it up as quickly as we can And mark why don't you go first? Yeah, I'll go back to it again. This isn't a simple silence of the lambs Film it's more complex. Uh, there's more going on here. He's trying to pretend it's super simple And he's crazy smart But it's none of none of that so lovely lovely to see some great stuff in there go back over it again Take a look lots to learn out of this one chase. What do you think? Yeah, I think with the mom This is a case of if I can't win your love I'll win your submission And I think that's what we're seeing here with especially with that relationship And there's a writer named uh, margaret atwood Who wrote about this? And I think she described the two-sided weirdness that we're seeing here pretty well And I remember reading this in a book about confidence and discipline if I get the Title I'll put it in the description But she said men are afraid that women will laugh at them Women are afraid that men will kill them And I think that really speaks to some depths of this layer upon layer that greg was talking about Greg and chase just sorry just to Highlight that I duck down like this because I have line of sight to her house right now That's a cool thing. Wow. That's pretty cool That is cool. She has bars on the window. So she's a little bit paranoid Sorry, Greg When you're hammer when you hammer everything looks like a nail as they say so yeah We all have that series and I check where when I see people on the side of the road It's my nature. Yeah, so look this guy is a complex creature as you are You don't have any idea what your parent did when you were six years old because you not like green beans Don't know anything can impact you the difference is that at some point most of us go. Okay, hold on How do I fix that broken piece of me? Some people just go to be full blown broken toys this guy did and if all you are is a broken toy Your meaning goes away. You still got to be a broken toy You still got to go and tell everybody what a broken toy you are somehow I think that's what we're seeing here I think this soppy sincerity that he shows to get people listen to him is so he can do more of what he's always done And that's and still some kind of creepy fear or terror in people and I'm not a fan Scott. What do you get? I agree with it And I think we're seeing I think it's a great example of seeing a psychopath when they're watching them grow Watching them go through life and the things that that they do as they go through life when he was little He was he was mean to animals and he killed his grandparents later on I guess what was he 15 year old 15 years old or something like that Yeah, then he gets so he gets out of prison and that behavior could take well for a little while then that behavior continued I think we're seeing someone who had outbursts of rage And that's when he killed his mother Because he talks about rage. He talks about anger. He talks about these pent up things that happen before he kills these people I think that's what it was. Yeah, I'm sure he hated his mom. I'm sure he hated everybody Anybody that had anything to do with brushing up against that ego like you do with a psychopath and they will get you back So you have to be real careful with that when you when you if you spot one or are aware that someone is one And like I said before I'm not a psychologist don't have phd and that none of us do But from what I've I've read and from what I understand that would be my opinion only that this guy's a psychopath And that's what we're seeing. I think she hit that ego and she said she was gonna Tell on him and I think he he killed her at that point All right, I think this is a good one fellas and I'll see you next time