We're just emerging from the first phase of reconciliation, where light was shed on some very painful wounds and some very dark secrets in Canadian history. Who hasn't been shocked and horrified to hear the stories coming out of residential schools? Many feel a responsibility and an obligation to share these stories in their classrooms. And it's important that we learn what happened. But I challenge you to bring reconciliation into its next phase, where we put Indigenous perspectives back at the centre of the narrative. When people tell their own stories about overcoming adversity, enduring hardships, going through prolonged periods of suffering, it isn't only the trauma that they focus on. It's not only what the abusers did to them that they share, but they share what inspired them, what kept them going, what was their spiritual centre, how did they remember who they were, who did they become, what little victories did they manage to win. It's important to highlight these details. When we share stories only of the suffering and abuse, we're giving students the perception that Indigenous peoples are the perpetual losers, that they never get to have their own victories, that they never get to win. I'm Christy Jordan Benton, co-author of Fatty Legs about my children's innavalik grandmother, Margaret Ulemon Pocac-Fenton. And yes, I wanted people to know about the horrific things that happened at residential school.  The beautiful thing about the way that Margaret tells her stories is she doesn't just share the abuse, the bullying that she suffered at residential school. She amazes with the ways that she found choices where you would think all choice was removed, where she found clever ways to get what she wanted, where her focus, her determination was so unparalleled that she accomplished what would seem completely impossible and did so with courage and bravery. Please join myself and Margaret along with a phenomenal lineup of facilitators at River Cree Resort on the Enoch Reserve on October 4th, hosted by the Edmonton Regional Learning Consortium. To sign up, go to www.erlc.ca and join us in exploring and creating the next phase of reconciliation. All my relations.


Well, yeah, I mean it's it's it's interesting because it's it's some of it's the same just like it used to be but the parameters are a lot more a lot different now because It's still if we see a band and we really like them We're gonna sign and that hasn't changed in 41 years that we've been doing this But you there are different parameters. I mean you would like a band to have some something going Because that really is a really big help for us like if there is you know You guys have a social media platform or you're really big in your own town or you know You've got a international buzz whatever it is that sort of stuff It doesn't mean that we would sign a band just because they have big buzz There's a lot of bands that I've seen that have you know tons of social media and spotify numbers But it's not our our style But there are other bands that don't like me send it back home. This is a guy I'm so excited But they're so amazing exactly, but it does help and you know we do Because there's so many bands out there now, there's so many good bands I think there's more good bands now that I've ever seen before here We can't sign everything so you have to look at that and go I'm gonna use these five bands They're all really really good really really really like we can probably only sign two of them And that's where well, you know, they've got stuff going on. So so that's a big help All right other questions for anybody on the panel by the way So So if you haven't if you haven't heard what she said he asked she asked Brian What would he be doing if metal blade haven't happened? Well, I was so in school I was really good in English and I was creative writing and stuff. So I Was doing I did the first ever US heavy metal fancy. I was ready for Craig I was ready for sound so I was doing journalistic stuff That's where I thought I was headed and then this record label thing kind of got in the way So I would hope that I would have been able to stay in the business somehow But more than likely probably doing doing the journal stuff. Hopefully because that's a really good skill Otherwise, I don't know I could do anything else Anybody else questions go ahead right there, sir in the gray shirt. Yeah, John Want to ask him something, but I want to tell you something first Let it go No, I wanted to compliment you a couple weeks ago on your that rock show on your Pickin stranglehold is number one Love the ten music songs. Yeah, yeah, and you get a killies last stand you put victim of Jane I was just like very good People don't know myself any trumpet Jim Florentine used to do the show called that metal show and now we're doing a show On YouTube called that rocks, so that's what he's referring to right every Wednesday night So if you haven't checked it out, please do thank you sure now you can ask Brian I just want to know okay, so I grew up with Jim's. I'm from Downey, okay What what was the deal when you first met him you met him at the country club at Michael shaker was it? No, so the story That's all your clothes your clothes So no it was Lars actually at the Michael shaker show Oh, that was there, but none of us he didn't know Lars or anything So the big story was Lars was wearing a Saxon European t-shirt my buddy John corner ins He helped start the fanzine and help with the metal mask for one We were both at the show and he was in the parking lot afterwards and saw this kid with the Saxon European t-shirt This is December 1980 no one in LA knew who Saxon was let alone had a Saxon European t-shirt She runs up to this kid. He goes, you know who Saxon is and he goes. Yeah, you know who Saxon is So yeah, so basically that was Lars. He just moved here from Denmark And you know, they started talking and we're both in the same thing and then two days later I can't remember the law since my house ours at his house and we just all became really good friends because we were all I was 18 and Lawrence 16 are all just big fans of them new membership metal and I think for him You know moving from Denmark over he didn't owe anybody Didn't ever expect that anybody would be into the music he was in this week. We bonded over that I don't I didn't meet James until after Metallica had had existed that they put this song on a metal massacre But I remember the first couple times I met him. I might even talk about in the book I don't think he said more than two words. They were so shy Yeah No, but yeah, he was so shy at the first He barely said anything and then he he obviously became more and more social and not become very very Amazing person, but the Metallica thing is so they brought the tape For that song at literally the last second like John and I were waiting for Lars to show up with his tape because it was like three o'clock and I think we're Mastering the whole thing and it had to be done by like five and he didn't get there They were gonna be on the album because that was like and I hadn't heard anything I didn't know what they're doing. So my friend was starting a band. So yeah, whatever I need bands So they got there at the very end and he gave me the tape which went up the bump up to a real-to-real tape There's no another story and he gave me the credits so Back in those days that you get a typesetter for those that don't know Google it you'll see but some Somebody has to sell the type for the back of the album and this we didn't see Prince or proofs or you that so they just kind of came out the way it was And his writing wasn't very great Hence the McGovney misspelling as well And I think that the typesetter thought that there were two Metallica wasn't a word So I think she thought there were two keys in there But that was one of the most horrifying things my entire life I get this record like the biggest high of all I got this this record was like 2,500 sitting in the record store. We're dead and I open the box and look at I go Ron Lagoon he should have been way bigger Hey guys doing there Congratulations John and congratulations Brian and a real quick question I just kneel turban with the metal voice just wanted to ask you back in the 80s, you know when you were of course doing the metal massacre albums And you work with Metallica already Did you ever have a I know you were friends with John and Marsha Zula Johnny and Marsha Z So did you ever have a band that you guys were? I guess doing a tug of war over in other words You loved them and they loved them and you're I don't know if it's a bidding war or something like that Yeah, I'm sure that by the way Neil is out him was the same on the very first anthrax He's playing down the street late, too You know, I'm pretty sure there was but what's interesting about the early days is that you know I've talked to people a lot about you know what's happening You know why bands would sign the mega force my best for fundamental play and you know mega forces basically sign bands in the New York area and Also in Europe and then we were signing basically bands in Southern, California because if a band from New York would sign with us This is back of that. There's no faster sheets and no internet or nothing So to communicate you have to call like long distance calls in the early 80s. We're not cheap 20 minutes on the phone $120 something so bands just tend to stay there like we I was good friends with Kurt Vanderhoof for metal church We talked about signing them, but they ended up signing with a public label in Seattle same reasons like hey I can you know drive 15 minutes But I think it's as both You know both labels kind of kind of grew up, you know us in mega force There are definitely times I'm sure we had had some bidding words of stuff Not that often though because of the geographical thing and I can't think of anything off the top My head where we really would fight over look I'm much would have rather had versatile fate, but they got to him first which is great, but yeah I don't think there's it wasn't a whole lot of I Guess we're competing more or less But there wasn't a whole lot of competition back there because none of us had really a lot of money So it wasn't like, you know, we were bidding on stuff But I think probably towards the you know mid 80s There might have been a couple bands that we might have been bidding on Yeah I just saw Mike in Vegas like a week ago. He's doing very well Yeah, Shrapam. No, because see the thing with Varni was that he was saying mostly the guitar hero guys And I wasn't really freed man. Yeah Was it really my scene is as much so we Combat for sure because they were Oh There was a couple people that ran I mean combat became our steward now, which is much snap That was there for a while, but there's a guy before him Steve Sinclair, thank you. Yeah, he ran it for a while So there was definitely we definitely had some tug-of-war over a lot of things. Maybe that was one of them as well So about John Zulu from Megaforce. Yes. Yeah Yeah Yeah, I mean honestly Yeah We did we were one of those they were nice enough to allow us to reissue some stuff Got to yet that was kind of part of the deal So we did three Alice Cooper records 3d purple records and five Then Lizzie probably the ex-iron maid is my favorite band of all time So being able to reissue those were great and I was in this we remastered all of them to it The great Eddie Schreyer master of a million amazing albums was our guy and we would go in there remaster these things and one of those crazy stories about that did lizard we were doing a Black Rose and you know, this is real real tape stuff and we're doing it I look over and the tape is like falling apart So I start freaking out because I can use in the master tapes I like got them out of the water for those library this thing breaks. They're gonna kill I'm in big trouble So he just got a laugh said no, this is you just baked the tape She put in an oven and bake them and that fixes it so so we fixed it But the Cooper stuff is really fun and by the way if you guys are ever in Vegas We have a metal blade museum out there. It opens every Saturday Starting I think mid August will be open every Saturday And one of the coolest things in there is when we did the three Alice Cooper records We're trying to we were redoing everything on CD and we're trying to you know add stuff to it There wasn't a lot to it But I asked Alice if he would like handwrite like just a couple paragraphs about each record So which he very nicely did and we've got the original Originals and That was a lot of fun working with Alice All right question over here Yeah, oh, yeah, so So God's condiment is Was one of the head riders for rock art magazine Which is one of the biggest metal magazines in all of Germany and we have a very similar Glass as a whole thing especially when I weigh about 50 pounds more And I would go to these festivals in Germany if people come up to me spot start speaking in German So until God's dad and he he laughed and then he would come here for shows in the US And people go up to him thinking that he was so it was a whole thing in fact we did I think it was like Rock art was doing they're doing these video things for a while I think they did like a whole little thing where he he played me I played him or something funny like that. So no, that's true story that happened me I don't I countless times people come up to me and talk to me during And I eventually when they did that I go I'm not If you don't hear there's some cool German shit But yeah, that's a good t-shirt on my guts. Yeah, I wish I would love that Alright right down here in the front you can even use the mic Something she mentioned actually made me think of a question I didn't really have one but um as far as the you know the metal massacre series like obviously a lot of those were used to showcase bands and the excess from How would you decide with the bands that were yeah, there are a lot of factors for that I think with the excess I love that I don't think they had a deal in time So we kind of were able to pull them to just to get a song a lot of times the bands over had deals But we were like in a mental church and I mentioned before and you know over to kill There are a lot of bands that it either had deals or are about to sign deals But we it was a good vehicle for them to be on against in some extra publicity and I loved all those bands So other than that it was I don't know that there was a real specific Reason why we did some or some some other ones I mean we like all I wish I could have done all of them But it's just visiting a possible so we kind of picked in shoes It just depended on a lot of the circumstances like where you know where the fans were if they had you know Managed to sustain stuff that measure we knew they were all that sort of stuff. So that's by the way great So Betsy go down the line Betsy talk about where can people find out information on your band John? I want to talk about what's going on with Armored State these days and then we'll be close to wrapping it up Okay, well, I'm pretty old-school so I post everything on Facebook I'm sure you guys have had your fair share of selfies Everything that we do I do post on Facebook and we all promote it it gets promoted on you know, Instagram and Twitter and you know all the the social media I do have a kick-ass band two of which are here today Chris Cardenas my guitar player and her Remington my bass player my drummer is in Orange County playing cover songs tonight West But we you know, it's anywhere you want to look on social media, you know, you'll see you know The shows that we have but we have some cool ones coming up We actually have a really kick-ass metal show coming up on November 4th with high racks the mentors they will Descension that's that's Saturday the 4th out in Long Beach a place called supply and demand and You know, just like I said, just you know Facebook.  Good night Weird guy in the sense that I have absolutely no social media Yeah, it's that's the way it is Old-school, I got it, but in any case Right Well What's happening is actually we're we're doing a tour another run actually would have lost Last year and now we're going to do another one and it's gonna be great and we had a lot of fun going out there on the road with Blackie and because of waspin So we're gonna do another one and that's like kind of the focus right now of what we're doing Music well, I mean we kind of started writing some songs with Aron saying a little bit Joey Brown myself We kind of move slow very slow But usually I say it's quality of the quantity so even though there's not a lot of armor saying records They're all great, but um true story, but in any case, so we should but I mean Tracy Who's Joey's wife who's the president of double play?   I mean there's a ton of good bands like I mentioned this the doc before It's really great. We've got a couple newer bands Capra is a really cool band. It's doing a bunch of stuff Yeah, to establish is the one that Secret psyched about there. I saw that Psycho Fest in Vegas last summer and like I look I love going to shows. I love seeing bands, but I seem I don't know somebody asked me how many shows I've seen it Estimated to be somewhere around 6,000 But they just blew me away and they're really cool They're kind of a if you haven't heard them they're like cross between their young kids and they're really good They're kind of like to me they remind me of like a cross between Cannibal Corpse and Power Trip because they got the death metal thing But there's a lot of fresh in there. It's really really really good There's a lot of really cool bands out there ingested Just go to metalblade.com and listen to all of them And I love them when they asked one of the guys from 200 stab wounds about the name and he said well, you know 100 wasn't enough 300 was too much They said all about 200 stab wounds and I love that. Yeah And I'm glad that you signed them. I do love Vomitory But obviously again and Brian alluded to this earlier Sort of whatever your style is and you're all here because you do like the music on here Brian signs what he likes So you're always going to find a great variety of stuff and like you said go to metalblade.com Any last question before we wrap things up right down here What's the status on the documentary which is off? Armand saying documentary I Know we did but I know that It's showed at a few different Festivals and he's just trying to get some It is really cool. It's it's great And Brian is a lot talking about saying a lot of various people from from a walk of life Years in the business So hopefully one day I'll come out And One more one more. Yeah, I just want to say that I love Betsy And I would ask her a question if I could think of one quick But I got one for John kind of a split in half one for John Yeah, well so So for Brian I just wanted to ask you know between for the sake of heaviness and swing of the blade the impetus or the key differentiators between you know what? You know drove you to write a second book and kind of the purpose of that versus you know the difference between the first and second book And so the single way I talked about it earlier It just you know, there was such a great response to the first book Which again just is very humbling and blew me away and just a lot of people said you know Why don't you do a second book as they're all like that? And then it kind of just everyone had more stories about you know Some of the bigger bands and they also wanted more stories about the obscure bands, so it kind of led Like well, I was talking to my co-writer Mark Eglinton who's Phenomenal and does a great job and he was saying yeah, let's let we should definitely do something So he's starting same process the first one It's a little bit different because the first one is basically a chronological order of the history of the label This one is more just more in-depth about you know the amount of art in armor-saint and King Diamond and You know all those sort of bands and then a lot of stuff about newer bands a lot of stuff about obscure bands There's some great boring nonsense about the music industry that people seem to like to ask me about so so it's just kind of a Overall thing like this the title is you know more stories from metal Thank you So real quick so John, thank you so much I wanted to ask you know My question was going to be about writing new material for the you know the next album But I you already answered that but I do want to ask you as far as the tour that's coming up with wasp Do you think with Blackie's? You know health situation if his back is going to be okay because I know he's up for surgery and we wish him well by just one of the Well, you know the temperatures. I think we certainly hope so of course You know we we want him to do the whole tour and I think the last five shows in European actually sit in a seat Yeah, I'm gonna still pull it off and prove us to him for that Yeah, I mean I think you know lost is they had a great European tour And real successful and I was kind of one of the people who was pushing to do another leg because I was like Doug we can do another 30 cities that we didn't even do and Of course, we're doubling up a couple one being a way of course, but Filly or something, but in any case, I'm hoping he's gonna be fine and he's blackie for me. All right All right, hey everybody have a nice hand for Structural how to get on the line


This is Mises Weekends with your host Jeff Deist. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back once again to Mises Weekends. Very happy to be joined this week with an in-studio guest, our own Jonathan Newman. Some of you know Jonathan as a fellow here at the Mises Institute, a recent Ph.D. graduate. So he's now Dr. Newman, one of the first people through the new Auburn Ph.D. program and also a frequent author and blogger for us. So this weekend we are talking science and scientism. Jonathan wrote an article called Neil Tye, The Scientism Guy just a couple days ago. And of course this all comes on the heels of the March for Science, which occurred throughout several U.S. cities last weekend. And also Neil deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye, the science guy, have both been in the news quite a bit lately. The latter with his new Netflix show, ostensibly dealing with science. So it's very timely. I enjoyed the article very much. We'll post a link to it. So let's just kind of go back for a second and talk about this March for Science and all these things that are happening. There seems to be sort of a conservative versus liberal battle going on in the country where progressives are sort of implying that conservatives, particularly Christians, are scientific illiterates and that there is objective truth out there as opposed to fake news. And so your article is kind of bound up with what's happening in the U.S. right now. So talk a little bit about what prompted you to write it to begin with. Sure. Well the immediate or direct thing that really triggered me to write this article was a video by Neil deGrasse Tyson. And basically he was just summing up a lot of the things that we heard in the March for Science and other people. But yeah, you're exactly right. So there's this big crowd.  You just don't understand the science behind it, as if the science just sort of gives way to this set of policy recommendations. Well, you start out talking a little bit about scientism and economics. Some people seem to forget sometimes that economics is a social science and hence not necessarily applicable to the same scientific method that we talk about in physical sciences. Tell us a little bit about what Mises had to say about scientism, especially with respect to econ. Yeah, so this was a big issue for Mises. He definitely closely guarded the boundary between economics and other sciences. So Mises' position is methodological dualism that empiricism, the scientific method, doing experiments and making observations is especially suited for the natural sciences. So we can go up to the top of a building and drop a rock and we can test how fast it falls to the ground and we can do that over and over again and it's very repeatable and we can do it as many times as it takes to come up with some sort of general conclusion. But that method doesn't really work for the social sciences. So there's this big categorical difference between the way inanimate objects behave and the way humans behave. So humans obviously have this capacity to make choices and so there's no way to set up some sort of experiment where you could come up with this general constant relation that has to do with human choices. So that was Mises' view. But today, in a lot of PhD programs, I mean there's a lot of mathiness, right? There's a lot of emphasis on empiricism and testing of hypotheses. Is it wrong for economists to say, well, I have a theory, I have an economic theory, it's a hypothesis, I'm going to go out and test it and depending on what I find out empirically, I'll maybe revise it. Even Austrians see some benefit in empirical work. Yeah, you're exactly right. So the big difference is when we're constructing economic theory we use logical deduction or as Mises called it, we go through the logic of action or praxeology as Mises called it. But there's definitely a place for empiricism even when we're studying human behavior but the big question is what counts as economics and what doesn't count as economics? If you're just sort of looking at how much people spent on McDonald's during the last year, is that really answering an economic question? Are you constructing economic theory or are you just looking at some sort of historical fact? So the question is what is economics and what is economics not or what isn't economics and not necessarily whether or not we should be doing as much empirical work as we are. Ordinarily, you see academics sort of guard against mission creep by other fields and specialties into their own. It seems like economists have ventured into statistics and math and all kinds of data collection without much howling from some of these other fields. But I'm sure you've heard the criticism as I have that Austrians particularly suffer from excessive a prioriism that they're too focused on deductive truths that we can observe from human nature that don't necessarily need to be tested and that this hinders Austrian proponents in terms of real-world effectiveness. Yeah, there's certainly a level, there's an era of sophistication that comes with having a big graph behind you when you're giving an academic presentation.  So the Austrians definitely don't have that era of sophistication when it comes to these high-powered mathematical models. But the question is, which is closer to the truth or are we doing economics when we're doing it the praxeological way or are we doing economics when we're trying to do it the empirical way? But beyond just methodology if something is proper economics or not proper economics or perhaps some other field, how has scientism infected economics or how has it harmed it maybe? In my opinion, you can use statistics, you can use data to come up with any sort of conclusion that you like. So a lot of times what happens when we're doing economics we're sort of on the way towards a policy prescription. Maybe that shouldn't be the case, but when you're using stats, when you're using data, there are ways that you can twist it around to get whatever conclusion that you'd like. So in that regard, economics is certainly hard because we're not really doing real science. We've got this policy recommendation and then we torture the data enough until it tells us what we want it to say. Well, it's interesting. As a little bit of a side, Walter Block shared with me some email exchanges he had with the late Gary Becker, the Nobel Prize winner who had been an advisor to Walter, I guess, on his PhD. And he had similarly voiced this complaint that Austrians would benefit from more empiricism and more mathematical work. So Walter pushed back a little bit and said at what point would you accept as an a priori truth that all other things being equal raising the minimum wage reduces the demand for lower skilled workers. And so Gary Becker ultimately sort of acknowledged this point by Walter and said, I think I can agree with your a priori observation. But we don't have people asking in mathematics, for example. We don't continue to empirically test 2 plus 2 is 4. I assume no one's empirically testing gravity or certain laws of physics or thermodynamics. Yeah, or the example of an article with the Pythagorean theorem, that just doesn't happen. But for some reason everybody thinks that it's okay to try to do that in economics. But when we get beyond some baseline knowledge in let's say physics and we get to something that's actually very complex, like the fluctuations in the Earth's temperature over millennia, then we start to talk about settled science and politics comes into it and we start to get beat over the head by the Bill Nye's of the world. So talk a little bit about how you discuss in the article how politics plays a role in politicizing science. Well, I think everybody should sort of their skepticism should turn up a little bit whenever they hear this term settled science, especially when there's a policy recommendation right after it. Because I go through a few different examples in the article of where even government programs that had the backing of the scientific community and the backing of settled science, they had to backtrack. They went back on what they originally started doing. I go through the example with DDT, which was controversial with some of the commenters and with the food pyramid and a lot of the nutritional stuff. And also, since we just celebrated Earth Day, there were many different predictions that were made in 1970 that turned out to be just totally wrong. And so there are plenty of times where we've seen the scientific community has some sort of some conclusion and then the government connects some policy based on that conclusion and then everything has to go backwards. Everything has to be overturned. But it seems to me there's an inherent contradiction. There's a hypocrisy in saying that the scientific method is the way to go. Things are testable, verifiable, falsifiable. And then also saying, well, this is settled because if the scientific method applies, then new data can always come into play. Right, exactly. You know, the thing that worries me, Jonathan, this isn't just necessarily in public policy. It's also, unfortunately, what we have to call public health, which is there's a lot of government-funded research that goes on out there. And the Bill Nye's of the world would have more of it and less private funding, presumably. Does it concern you that government funding and then you start talking about settled science that is sort of narrows and mainstream research? In other words, if you have a really off-the-wall idea about cancer, you're probably not going to get funded by NIH or at your university. So it tends to maybe limit scientific advancement rather than furthering it. Yeah, you're right. So it'll limit it and also there's a question of whether it'll bias the results. So a lot of times if some, if there's a lot of money on the line to get some sort of result, then the researchers who are doing the science might be more inclined to get that result that they're being paid to find. And so, obviously, when there's a lot of money on the line and when there's a lot at stake politically, then scientists might be more inclined to fudge the numbers a little bit or they'll torture the data until it gives them the result that they want just so that they can please the people who are paying them. So yeah, it's going to limit the amount of science that's done but also there's a chance that will bias the science as well. Jonathan, what amazes me is that so much of what we see in social science is really decidedly unscientific. If you look at sociology or women's studies or feminist studies or even history, you'll often find that far from an objective framework or perspective, there's sort of some preferred results and the scientific research, the peer-reviewed articles all sort of try to reach that result. It's conclusory rather than truly scientific. Yeah, exactly. So the way science ought to be done is that you have some hypothesis that you're trying to test and so you proceed forward that direction but a lot of times what happens in some of these social sciences like you mentioned but also even in the natural sciences there's a conclusion first and then you're trying to get to that conclusion so that you can add your name to the list of scientists who have the same conclusion as everybody else. But how do we reach that? You've recently earned a PhD so you've been through quite a bit of higher education at Auburn which is not a left-wing bastion but not a right-wing bastion either. Talk about some of the ways that you saw this. How does this seep down throughout academia? One of my big things is being careful about the way we make causal claims in our papers. So in my dissertation I did use some empirics. I used some econometrics. I was looking at some old survey data about how reliable student responses about their own GPAs were and so I had to be... I was very careful about the way I would make causal claims so I didn't say that this impacted this because we have this regression that has this sign on this variable. So I think a lot of it comes down to just being careful of the way we word things and that when we say something causes something else then we have to be very careful about what's backing that up. One of the things that concerns me is that we're assuming that scientists and academics are necessarily well-intentioned rather than weaponizing science to use it as a bludgeon against us to forward certain public policy prescriptions and you talk about that a little bit here in the end of your article where you say that the end goal of these science marches is of this bigger government. People like Neil deGrasse Tyson would say how did we rise up from this sort of backwards country? Well, it's because of government funding and government research and that this is the path forward. There seems to be an anti-market bias in the march for science. You're absolutely right. So there's this worldview problem among scientists and I just got done watching a few episodes of Bill and I's Netflix show and you see it there as well so there's this complete denial of the market being able to produce anything or do anything of value. I think they had one small segment about can we actually go to space with private firms but there was this big question and I think they ended up with the conclusion that the private firms are going to have to work with governments so that they have the adequate resources to go to space and so yeah, there's this big worldview divide in these popular scientists like Neil deGrasse Tyson and Bill and I where they don't trust the market. They don't see the market at work for people. They don't see the benefits of free markets around the world and so there's this heavy reliance on government and on all of these government interventions to sort of give them what they want which is more government funding for their own science. Well, it's ironic that the people who are charged with finding objective truth are now apparently joining the chorus of people who are telling us to shut up and stop asking questions. Jonathan, thanks so much for your time. Ladies and gentlemen, have a great weekend. We'll see you next time.


Thank you. We are now open for questions. I don't know if Steve, if you have any responses. Yeah, that was a great story. I think our community has been poor at advocating for articulating and gaining evidence for the importance of a diagnosis. One of the things as an internist that I'm aware of is that achieving a diagnosis can be important in one slide, especially with the cost, if you leave out the post-doc cost, speaks to that. And I think that, you know, with a view towards what Cesar can do going forward, I think that perhaps an effort to document the value of making diagnoses in general, both economically and from a patient perspective, could be very important because we run into all the time from the payer standpoint. Expand that, which is, it's just not the diagnosis. What we're seeing is that having the diagnosis leads to, in some cases at least, new treatments being discovered. And so it starts a pathway that is much more useful than when we say it just provides a diagnosis. Right, it can, but I think we have to be very careful there because that message can dilute, it can dilute the inherent substantial value of a diagnosis. So the success stories where you actually get treatments, you know, we've had them too, they're wonderful, right? But I think that what we have to articulate as a community in addition to that is that simply getting a diagnosis is important. And we don't want to dilute that message by implying that it's only the home runs where you have a treatment that are worthwhile. Yeah. Is there a role for NHGRI in sort of formalizing, organizing, helping, facilitating the crowd sourcing of the phenotyping? That's question number one. And my other question is there are 265 variants in NGLY1 listed on the Exome aggregation consortium server. How many of those have any kind of phenotype at all? And of course that's sort of a loaded question because the answer maybe you don't know, but maybe Caesar or Emerge or somebody at NHGRI can figure that out. So I think there's two really good questions. So obviously I think there's tons of research left to be done on how best to utilize the internet to interpret variants. I think there's obviously a lot of potential for it. But where I say it's very early days. I'm doing a lot of this on a very ad hoc patient by patient basis. But there's certainly some good science to be done here. In terms of interpreting NGLY1 variants, I mean we have a pretty good genotypic database at this point. But of the 265 that could be pathogenic so far, obviously we've only seen at most two times 39 of them, which in fact is far less than that. So it's really a case by case basis when it comes to interpreting pathogenicity in NGLY1. One of the other lessons from this is in the conversation this morning about learning healthcare infrastructures. We need to think about how to make that sort of patient and family centered or patient and family partnered infrastructures and not simply clinician or health system driven infrastructures. Sharon and Gail. Yeah, I just wanted to say that thank you for the talk. And I think that we should... I think you've only shown us a small piece of it. So I'm a type 1 diabetic and there's a parent group called We Are Not Waiting for the NightScout Project. And I follow them on Facebook and they've literally hijacked the data from glucose sensors. They've created on the cloud databases. And the parents who technically don't know how to do this, there's a group of computer savvy parents who then every day on Facebook help these parents set up much, much better, let me tell you, much, much better web page showing their children's data than the current FDA approved version. And so I do think that, and their logo is We Are Not Waiting, and so I do think that we should really think in Caesar 2.0 more about how to engage the parents and the families than we have in Caesar 1 when it was all very new because it is just amazing that wealth of energy and activity that I don't think we included in our projects. Thank you. Boy, this better be good. You've had to wait for 25 seconds. So I really want to congratulate the panelists and also the comments that came out, especially Sharon's, had some similarity to what I wanted to say. I've been sort of waiting for this moment in our discussion to ask people to seriously consider how information is not under the control anymore of researchers and clinicians who feel that they need to exercise a very strong moral obligation to return or not return because of professional norms and guidelines, et cetera, et cetera, that the world we're in now, and there are these terms, citizen scientist is one, but then there are a lot more kind of offbeat punk, science punk, results punk.  I don't tweet, I don't go on Facebook. I mean, I'm really old school, but I've heard talks about it. And the issue I think is really important for Caesar 2 is to address issues about who owns this information now, who controls it because I know a lot of folks who are participating in George Church's studies for example, and who are on the Internet, who are parents, who are disease-focused groups, et cetera, aren't waiting and are taking charge. And I think this is a big challenge to NIH and to Caesar to get on board and to really understand what would be good evidence and not, and to really help people. And so I applaud your helping, and I guess I just think this is a challenge for all of us. Katrina Armstrong from MGH. I just wanted to pick up, I think, on two points that I agree offer, I would say an amazing opportunity for the next version of Caesar. So one is just to echo the sense of the importance of diagnosis, and in some ways, the opportunity for the Genomic Medicine Program to lead in reintroducing that into medicine altogether. So I will say that one of the things that I found incredibly distressing was about two years I discovered that internal medicine residents are now graded on a million different things. There's some 20 competencies in particular, but the ability to make a diagnosis doesn't show up on there at all. It's not one of the competencies that we consider fundamental to internal medicine. And so I think the concept that that is, but I think the key piece is that those competencies were actually driven by a belief that we were focusing more on our patients and that actually making a diagnosis was kind of a doctor-focused thing, and that actually I think your story brought, I think, home, the concept that having a diagnosis is an incredibly patient-centered moment, and being able to frame that in genomics could be an incredibly powerful thing, I think, for pulling the whole field back. The other thing I would just say is I think your story also brought up this key point for Caesar of how critical it is to engage the communities, whether we define the communities as an area or a community and a population of an area or a community with a disease, and the opportunity, I think, for Caesar 2.0 to really focus on how that could become part of this triad of the tools, the delivery, and then the community.  Yeah, so a couple things. One is I wanted to agree again on the importance of diagnosis, and we've seen this at our own institution that we have three major healthcare payers, one of whom just says basically we won't pay for genetics except in these very, very narrow contexts, and so this argument about the importance of diagnosis is something that our practitioners are trying to develop and make back to payers, and they're kind of gathering their own data, but it would be really useful to have additional data. At the same time, I also think that it's very important to actually study the impacts of the kinds of activities that we heard described today because, for instance, we've heard some success stories. I'm sure not everything is a success story, and for sure not every patient who gets back genetic information manages to find other people who have similar mutations and manages to find actually medically beneficial interventions, right? And so having some actual data as opposed to... I love the really great stories. I have a student who actually did something similar, but I just think actually having some data would be important, and then my final point is that I also think not... there's a lot of variability in how people respond to this kind of information, how much they want to put themselves and their kid out there on the web. So again, we shouldn't assume that some people are doing that, that everybody would want to do that, which I think complicates our job in thinking about how our policies should relate to the communities out there, right? Just to follow up on that, I think one of the things that CSER has been very successful at is presenting to patients what do they want, what are the important parameters when they're making a decision? Is it how long you'll live? Is it pediatric versus adult onset? What are the categories you want? You can't ask a patient about thousands of conditions one by one. Do you want this? Do you want to do this? So how do you put those together in a way Katrina's done a really nice job with her carrier screening for classification? Other studies are collecting really good data on what proportion of patients would want VUSs versus would not want them. That's some really important data because we hear from the people who want everything but we don't hear much from the people who want nothing and they're out there. Actually, Gail, I'm going to follow up on your comment, which I thought was a very useful comment, that right now we've been talking about this in the context of people who have some phenotype or some problem. I think your comment is even more salient if we think about healthy individuals who don't have a problem and think about secondary findings. Bob, okay. I wanted to ask you to reflect a little bit on the following question, which is there's been a lot of data now, as Gail mentioned and others, on how patients respond to particular information or what kind of information would they want and how would they like to return to them. Are we done now with that question and can we now go on? Or is this something which is going to change over time as society changes and as generations age and do we need to ask these questions again? I don't think we're done with the answers to this question. I think from Caesar over the next year or two years you're going to see a lot more information about how people actually respond when they get the information back. And there may be some surprises in there, like people may be very interested in getting a piece of information related to their phenotype, but then they may lose interest in getting the other pieces of information that are not related to their phenotype but that are more secondary. I think implicit in your question is is there a generational effect of older people thinking about it one way and when the younger generation comes along they'll think about it very differently. In our experience in our Dana-Farber project with a mostly older adult population is great enthusiasm about getting results back, at least when asked initially for preferences. I have no reason to believe that younger generations are going to be less enthusiastic about it, but there's not a lot of room to go up, if you will. But I guess we'll see. I also think that there's a like many other areas of science it's iterative in the sense that once we answer certain questions about this topic we'll find new questions and new nuances to explore further. To add one thing, I'm not yet sure that we've figured out how to phrase the question directly to patients or families or people about what it is that you want back. We may be asking the question in a very primitive way. Yeah, I would underscore that. My sense is that certainly in our project that there's so many things that have moved and the way that we ask questions now, I mean the field changes so quickly it would be great to have an opportunity in 2.0 to reformulate the questions. So the technology has kind of advanced that even the way of understanding when you say would you like the information we can ask about uncertainty and different ways of phrasing that we can ask about how it might impact their course of care and the use of there's a whole different series of ways that we're going to want to ask the questions and then there's the diversity so when we go to populations that haven't really been part of CESA 1.0 and then how do we even ask those questions and pursue that there. So I think there's a lot to do and in fact it's crucially important to maintain that because I don't know again I mentioned this before but I don't know that there's another funding mechanism that allows us to ask those questions in parallel with pushing the latest out there. Amy McGuire from Baylor College of Medicine. So I just wanted to I find it very interesting the tension that's being discussed because on the one hand I think we're all acknowledging that there are individual differences in how people feel about these things and I think we're seeing that in our CESA projects and I think one of the major challenges that we've had within the CESA consortium is to account for individual and group differences and trying to distinguish sort of how people hang together. You know it's based on their particular clinical presentation phenotype it might be based there are certain people who are inherently more enthusiastic about this or less concerned about their privacy or things like that and so I guess it's kind of a question kind of a comment but that's in tension I think with our need and desire to have sort of standard policies and sort of guidelines in place for how we treat all patients and so there's been a very robust discussion about sort of not everybody wants to have their kid out on the internet some people do and how do we from a policy perspective address those differences and I personally think that CESA and CESA 2.0 is really well poised to try to figure out how we categorize people and we can't do it on an of one individual basis right we've got to have some unifying categories but how do we account for those differences among different groups and what are the relevant groups and how do we adjust our policies to take that into consideration so I just was wondering I don't know if Steve or anybody else has thoughts on how we can best address that in the next phase I mean I think we're addressing it in this phase because in some sense we're talking about bringing genomics into medicine and so it's inherently individualized right you might have some defaults in ways that you approach populations in some places where there are sort of policies that are enforced across all population but it's when it's one clinician with one patient or one family there's inevitably going to be a component of individualization to it and I think that's one of the places where CESA has or the work that CESA and the CESA investigators have done has had a lot to say because we're learning how to individualize that in individual interactions with particular patients so how do we make some of the decisions that are to be made here what you might call preference sensitive decisions and how do you make preference sensitive decisions together with families at the same time for example what are the defaults that you might have in place so if somebody does you know what are the sort of presumptions about the ways that you might go and if a family wants to do something differently then they go a different way so I think CESA is informing both of those things how to sort of negotiate those individual preferences with individual patients and at the same time what sorts of defaults make sense across a clinic across a health system etc so I hate to be totally provocative but I'm from Vermont where healthcare reform is raging and so I think that a lot of the research that's been done by CESA comes from a medical genetics perspective which comes from a background of looking at genetic information as exceptional as should be protected and I wonder if we wouldn't have a different approach to this so my ultimate question is how much choice should families, individuals patients be given in knowing or not knowing information that's medically important and could save money within the health system and provide better healthcare I think your question is potentially one of the further areas for research in the next in CESA 2.0 in other words not only the empirical issues of how does this information impact the health system but how should it and I think that so I think I don't think there's a simple answer to your question but I think that's one of the areas for further work right and thinking about like a public health perspective of people don't have choices about sexually transmitted diseases being reported and follow-up being done Heidi so I've just been thinking about Bob's question about do we know enough about the choices patients have and what they want back and are we done with that and you know this question of some patients want back VUS is others don't you know we've figured if Matt had been given not just two variants that were almost known but instead a VCF file with thousands of VUS that were probably in his son's genome he might not have gotten as quickly to where he is today and so the point is that not all VUS are created equal and I think that one physician getting a report with a VUS back on it and I've seen this happen all the time oh I'm sure it's pathogenic and they just don't want to make the call to the other physician who probably rightly says most VUS will end up being benign which is actually what we understand today including the list of 100 that Dan just found on EXACT so I think we need to do a better job of trying to figure out how how to return variants that are uncertain you know and what do we do with that and try and figure out how we'll make them certain in the future and try to contextualize and figure out what to do from there two really quick comments Jim and Debbie then we have to turn to the end I just want to echo what Heidi says I think it would be an abdication of our responsibility where we to not make any judgments we have to make some judgments and there will be things that are more actionable than others and I think we have to figure out ways of adjudicating those things Debbie but I just wanted to bring up too that it's obvious that the public is interested in engaging and perhaps in the next phase of CESAR we could think of some way to accomplish this in the Mendelian Centers we're starting to develop a website called mygene2 where people can come to us with their clinical sequencing data and it can become incorporated in Mendelian findings like Matt if he got a thousand variants or 500 variants could have come and his data could be put together with lots of people's data so if they want to engage in this they can, right and I think more and more people will use social networking as a way to get information that's really important to their families and to their diagnosis so I think that CESAR should think about using this in novel ways too because there are obviously people who want to engage and maybe this is a way we'll identify other cases of that variant that we're not sure of and could get more clinical phenotypes associated with that. Well thank you I want to thank Steve and Matt as well as a group for this great conversation I'm going to turn this over to Shanita to make some summary comments now


Today, me and my friends took another shot at speedrunner vs secret trader. If you don't already know what this is, me and my friends are trying to beat the game but one of the speedrunners is actually a trader.  This was really fun to do so make sure to watch until the end to find out what happens. Also it is worth noting that only 7.4% of you guys watching are actually subscribed, so if you do end up liking the video please consider subscribing. It's free and I put so much work into getting these videos out to you every single week. For all the plugins I use in these videos, there's now Patreon where you can download them for yourselves and the link is in the description. Now on with the video. I hope you know Blanks recording a YouTube video, it's just a troll. It's just a prank bro, the camera's right there. Maybe I took the iron because I think you're the trader so I didn't want you to have to kill him. It's too early to tell who the trader is. It's me. It's me. It's us for getting an axe bro, like come on. Bird has an iron chest plate and I can't even get like 3 pieces of iron and Bird has a chest plate.   It's me. Bro you're just babies. Adam why didn't you just try to hit me? Adam just really tried to hit me with a stone pick axe when he was running past me. I killed him. Okay where are you guys? You killed me. I'm right here. I'm right here. Where is everyone else? I know we're right here. I'm at like the starting place. I'm with the way. Everyone run back to spawn. Run back to spawn. Oh me and Adam are getting stuff. If Adam dies it's me. If I kill Adam bro it's Kyro though. I think you said it the opposite way around you said if Adam dies it's me. Yeah.  You confuse me but okay. Oh wait look at this. Two traitors. This block is however and above. Wait is it? No it's one. This one. Okay come to spawn guys. Adam come here. Adam come here. I'm smelting iron because blanks don't mind but after yes I'll go. I'm coming back I don't know where he's coming. What's Adam doing? He's stealing my iron. Please put that back. Thank you. Why? Kind of sus. Everyone just wants to steal my materials today. I don't get it. Oh my god. Oh my god. They tried lighting me on fire. No I didn't. Suss. Suss. That does not sound like something. You're burning down a house. Are you guys are arsonists? We did it. Why are you guys being arsonists? Why would you do that? Why would you do that? What? What? Did you guys steal my iron again? I can't tell you guys how much I'm not the traitor right now. Get out. Get out. What? That wasn't even me. I'm making food. All right well I'm breaking my stuff and blank stole another one of my items. Can we just... Here you can have your way back. Can we just kill blank? Yes. Please. What? Can we just kill blank? You just keep stealing. We're supposed to be working as a team and you just keep stealing my items. One blank. I don't get it. We're supposed to be working as a team and you just keep stealing my items. That's really suspicious. Why arsonist? I didn't steal anything. Name one thing I stole from you. You stole iron?  I'm literally... The iron that I killed and iron golem? I got the iron golem blank. Oh my God. I got the final thing. Kairu.  Oh he's killing Kairu right now. Oh yeah I'm killing Kairu. Not a chicken. We can go to the nether if we find a lava pool. Okay. I'm gonna drown them. I am. I'm drowning them. No. A lot of people thought I cheated in my last video because I made a cut when I got... No. No. A lot of people said I was cheating because I made a cut when I got an iron axe but not an iron. A diamond axe but I just found three diamonds in a chest. Wait what?  No no no. There was a fortress. I don't know. I don't know. Oh my God. Get in the water dummy. In the water. Jump into the water. I don't know. I don't know. Get in the water. I don't know. There's an end to that. Get in the water. Oh my gosh baby wolves.  I'm not a swim Kairu.   Harold stop it. Mine your way. Yeah yeah. Ow ow ow stop. Don't touch those boxes. Stop. What? It's Fundy. It's Fundy. He's going to put another impossible Minecraft difficulty if I don't stop him. Watch out. I'm actually dying. I feel so bad. I'm drowning me. I'm drowning me. It says swim. I'll put out all the lava as well so that no one picks up any. What if you pick up some? I have water in my bucket. Because I have water in my bucket. Only you are allowed to have lava. They're just hanging. Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying. That's not okay at all. Then that's not what I'm saying. Forest fire. Forest fire. All right. Well now I'm like super stuck to the bird bro. It's definitely bird. Bird what the heck?  What? The forest fire. Wavy I'm going to go in. He has the only portal right there. Yeah I know but still he has time. They can get out of there. Hello Adam. You just trapped me. You're so unnecessarily sus of me. Because you're being sus. You're saying you're like oh well I just got the lava to make a portal. Whatever I already found a fortress. Awesome. I found a ruined portal but it has no chest. So that's absolutely useless. Here I'm at the fortress. Be careful wavy. No. Yeah. Wow why are you only telling a wavy to be careful? Because she's the one that was just making the jump to the fortress. I don't know what you're implying Adam. What's this guy doing here? Why is that even okay?  No don't melee me. You're literally ablaze use your fire. God dang. Oh jeez. Nothing. Oh bird bird bird get out of there. Oh my god. They're literally just leave. Just leave. No we're smacking them out. There's so many. He's led us into a death trap. We're in a death trap. I think I might die here. I think I might. Just be careful. Get out of there. Get out of there. Oh I have two rods. I got two rods for that. Where did that one come from? It's just spawned on top of me. Okay I have three rods. I have three rods. Okay. I didn't get in. I have two. Okay get him get him get him. Get him. I have four. Nice. Adam what the heck?  There's a blaze right there. Alright I have four. How many do you guys have? I have two. So we have six. Alright so we have like pretty much enough. You guys get that. Peek a mount but let's not do that. Yeah I'll start mining gold. They're looking for gold. Oh. Okay. Oh there's a blaze. Oavey. Oavey behind you. Oavey. Thank you. Yeah.  Oh. Oh my gosh. Is that clone trooper aim? Ah another blaze. Stinky. Okay got it. Oh. I got another run. It's Adam? No he died. He died. No Adam! What? Okay. Why did he give us no warning of dying? For you. Do you guys? You need to do that. You can't say how you died. Meet up. I found Adam's stuff. I found Adam's stuff. Found it. Oh you did? Yep. Adam's stuff is right here. How does it look like he died? Is there any mobs in here? Yeah there's mobs. It looks like a mob. Oh wait I'm dying to a wither. I got him. Three chests right here. Yeah but I'm withering. I'm withering away right now. Three chests. Oh you good? Yeah but they're all looted. They're all looted. Do you need food? No I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm gonna get some hunger. I feel like a player would have definitely accidentally picked up his diamonds and got the achievement. Yeah. Yeah. He might have died to pigmen. He might have died to zombie pigmen. I think you- Did he hit one? Look right here. Look right here. I think he was trying to block them off. Oh. This is a lot. We just need to get out of here and start mining gold. We don't really need anything else. Yeah I have six gold on me right now that I can trade off. Carrot tech take this. What? Take what? Oh thank you. Now I have 12. I have 12 blazer odds dude. Okay. Oh my god. I'm withering and burning. What? Take food. Just block. Literally just block. Literally just mine down. Someone's behind us.  Dude mine down. What bird? Just get in that wall and heal. Oh my god. Do you have enough food? Not today I think. Guys just get in the wall. Get in the wall. Get in the wall. Get in the wall. Okay. I need more blocks anyways. Just go ahead in this way. Wait if you go in the wall. Go in the wall. Go in the wall. What if bird places lava? We both died of lava in the walls.  Yeah don't even come to my tunnel. I heard a place. Sorry I'm pushing you low. There's a place over here. Why are there places over here? I'm good but that was so surprising. There's another one up here. Wait you watch out. Wait you watch out. Wait are there two guys? Oh wait. Yeah there's all these blazes. Never mind. I don't want to go this way. I want to go this way. Okay wait you just come down here. Is this hollow? This is hollow. Go this way. No we can escape. We can escape. We'll go back and we'll go try some piglins. Watch this. You guys ready? Leave it there. Leave it there. No bird. Leave it there. Leave it there. Thank you. Okay okay okay. Let's go back this way. Here I'll block up all the watch out because there's a blaze spawn over there. Ah blaze right here. Oh wait behind you. Oh dang none of those hit. Is it not going to give us a good trade? Maybe. It keeps wanting to kill a wavy for some reason. Oh wait no it's bird. Bird get some gold and get armor. If we find a bastion it will be so good because we can like get those. Oh wait the portal's right there. Do silvers just spawn anywhere? What? Yeah just randomly. Yeah because as much as silvers just blow up on me. Usually they spawn in the near stronghold. They spawn randomly but also near strongholds. They mostly spawn near strongholds. In my experience like I've never really seen them outside of strongholds. So you could be near strongholds. You could be near a stronghold though Blank. So just look around a little bit. Wait do you see a bastion? Yeah. Those are so much gold. I have an iron pick I know. See if you can find an iron inside it. I'm not really close to it. I'm just going to go to it because I'm pretty far. Where is it? Where is it? Where are you at? I think it's going to be like near zero zero wish. Wait no no no it's going to be like zero negative a hundred or something. I see it but I can't really say the exact chords because I'm not right next to it. Okay. I'm going towards that. Oh wait Kyra I see it. Just wait a minute. Oh I don't see it. If you see it then I'll see me. Oh see me? Oh okay. Yeah. Oh wait. It walks to bridge. The bastion is this way. I see it. Gast shoot at me. It's not shooting at me. Wait why do you tell it to shoot at you then? Stop. What?  Oh why do you want that epic gamer achievement? No I just want it dead so it doesn't hit me off when I'm bridging. Oh fair. No. It's literally standing right next to me. You want the gas tier guys. Exactly. I don't know what you need the gas tier. Oh I see a ton of gold blocks yeah. Oh nice hot chorus. Hey. I saw who I saw you Kyra just shoot that back. Oh that back to back um like quest return descender and hot tourist. I don't know why but Adam had like three iron chest plates so. Whenever I'm the imposter I just usually manipulate blank. Basically might go too. Well you and blank are like homies. I should probably stop it. I should probably just stop trying to manipulate blank because that's just kind of mean. Yeah start manipulating a wavy a wavy wanted team right now. Yeah sure. The chests are up here.  I'll go pick a blank. You guys just stay over here. If you want there's the iron it's in the bottom for you. I'm in the basket in the Baskin Robbins and I found uh I found them like one of the main chests. Okay. And I'm blocking myself and then hopefully don't murder me. Okay I got some obsidian. I got some arrows. Nothing really useful though. I have five obsidian. Ooh I have another five. We can make a new portal. How many pros do we need? We need like 12 or 14 or 16. Like a stack. A stack of pros would be preferable. Didn't you get five already? Why do you need a stack? Because you do you know how end frames work? They give you like zero to three. And there's 12. There's 12. Why do you need a stack? To find it. To locate it. You already have five don't you? You need a decent amount. You need a lot. You do not need 22 eyes or however many you're going to get. You don't need 22. Okay well since you get like maybe. No you didn't say 16 more. You just said 16 in total. I have four. I have four. Oh yeah that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm asking you. I have four. I have four. So you have nine. Blink how many did you get? I have eight. You have eight. Wait wait you didn't say you had eight. No Blink picked it up. I heard it. You had. Yeah I did hear it. Okay well then we have plenty. Okay. Okay well I actually have to go. So you should just like throw them on the ground or something. You know. I saw you. Come on.  Come on stop trolling. Blink. Blink. Blink. Blink. Blink. Blink. Blink. Blink. You have three. No. Give me one more. I really don't want to go out with the band. Thank you, Bert. Bert? Blank needs to go home. We can still win. You're welcome. You guys want to go out with the band? You guys are we want to go out. I don't want to stand up and pirate attack. No. I don't want to. Hiro. Hiro. Come here. I don't want to get Cairo. Come here Cairo. Just play the dream hunter music here. No, no. Blink. Blink's trying to block me from playing the music. Thanks for having to block me from blowing up. Stop! You're not the main enemy, Blank. I feel like you're an enemy. I have a real attack. Hey! Stop! Stop! Get him! Get him! Stop! Get him! Get him! Get him! Get him! Blank, he's wasting our pearls. Obviously, him. Da-da-da-da! Come here, Kyro.  Oh, no! Oh, no! Go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go! He's trapping the portal. He's trapping. Let's go. Let's go. Fast. No! The world's not loading in. Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! The world, it's just one chunk. It's just one chunk. It's literally just a single chunk. Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! He's killing him. What's happening here? Da-da-da-da! Oh, no! We're suddenly talking about me and Kyro. Da-da-da-da! Ah! Blank, I'm trying to understand. Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! I'm trying to understand. Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! He's doing the dream manhunt, bro. This isn't a manhunt. It's a 3-1. Have you seen Dream Poppin' off, dude? That's what we're trying to get for your channel. Yeah. Wait, are you actually killing me?  I'm on one heart. I'm on one heart.   I'm serious. I'm being serious right now.  Guys, after we kill him, let's continue.  I'm being 100% serious. I'm on one heart.  The traitor... Okay, someone just throw... Listen. Listen. The traitor is gonna... Maybe is it actually you or no, bro? No, it's not. Yep, I knew it was him, dude. I knew it from the freaking start. Yeah, I know you did, but it wasn't even a good reason. Dude, okay. Your reasonings didn't make any sense either. You said a point. Yeah, I know. It was just a 50-50 and the reasonings didn't make any sense. Hey, Blank, come duo me over here. Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da! Da-da-da-da-da! What the heck? Oh, Blank! You're supposed to go in there, Blank. Blank! Blank! You have to complete the game. You have to complete it. Blank doesn't have the time for this. Blank, Blank, Blank! Oh! You got the birdwinds. Birdwinds. Birdwinds.