There we go. And we're live. Cue music. There it is. Copyright. Yes. Copyright. Morning everybody. Morning. Hello. There we go. I blame Debbie for suggesting that it was going to be a seamless professional start this time round. It jinxed things definitely, didn't it? But here we are back again for the Friday webinar number 33 for XXXIII as we like to call it. Absolutely. Yes. Trips off the tongue, doesn't it? It does indeed. So great to see people here. And we're looking forward to today. We are. We are. We've got lots of exciting things today. Right. Okay. So let's get started. So what we... Oh, here we are. Today's webinar moved on one to slide too many. Here we are. We've revealed our first thing. But anyway, we've got some news items. There's a public lecture with Emily coming up to Conference in Canada survey, which Jane and I have been involved in. And we've got a new waffle, which we're going to talk to you about. But the main event is Fabian Frank from University of Bamberg, who we are delighted to have with us today. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So Jane, you advance to the next slide and I will hand over to you. Okay. Okay. Well, just hot off the press as well, that we've just had a tweet back from Comic Relief. Okay. So Comic Relief are doing a sort of... It's next Friday, by the way. So a week today. Red Mose Day. You've got loads of time to get involved in this. Very, very exciting. On their website, you can download this poster. So we pop the link in there. If you put it in the chat for everybody. You can put this in your window or you can take a photo and share it on social media. So in addition to tagging Comic Relief, we've suggested that you write your best copyright joke on here.  So just to say, Chris, literally like two minutes ago, Comic Relief have told us that copyright jokes is nice, quite niche. So I've told them it's going to be trending by the end of the day. So we've got a lot to live up to, really. But we thought, yes, yeah. So have a look on there. You can see the greatest joke ever. I'm just going to wave the piece of paper, but you have to go on Twitter to be able to see this, I think. So we're not going to reveal that great copyright joke at this moment. Shall I tell it? Because you know how I'm so good at telling jokes. Okay. Yes, I think you should. And normally get the punchline in the wrong place, like before I told the jokes. I think you know the joke about blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Okay. So how many copyright officers does it take to change a light bulb? Come on, I don't know, Chris. I don't know. How many copyright officers does it take to change a light bulb? Well, it depends on your institution's appetite for risk. Yes. Okay. Anyone else? Anyone else? Anyone else? Anyone could do better than that. Anyone pop something in the chat, but also get yourself a poster. Let's get copyright jokes trending on Twitter. Come on. Okay. There we are. Come on, Jenny. You can do better than that as well. James Bennett isn't with us today from the CLA, but I know he's got an even worse copyright joke that I'm short on. But we won't steal this thunder. No, I won't say the punchline. I won't say it. Okay. Good. Okay. So, sir, reminder, we have an archive here, so all the other 32 webinars. Well, not all are recorded, but most are available for you to catch up on. So, the next item is copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. So, the first item we want to draw people's attention to next week, I think we have Dr Emily Hudson, who is a regular contributor to this webinar, will be doing the create public lecture on an empirical perspective on drafting copyright exceptions. So definitely worth tuning into that when we've had Emily speak here, but I think this is going to be a really good opportunity for her to talk more about what her findings were from, you know, many years of empirical research. The book is, in my view, essential reading for anyone who's responsible for managing copyrights in an institutional environment. Focus on cultural heritage institutions, but that does include education, educational institutions as well. And she's spoken to many people over the years and some really useful insights. So I would strongly recommend that we hope to do some sessions as well leading on for that in even even more depth with Emily in due course. Oh yes, yes, I was going to say watch this space. Yes, we're hoping a couple of seminars aren't we? So when we can track her down. Yes, she's not here today. So I was just checking. Okay, next over to me. Yeah, ABC conference. So ABC conference is the Canadian copyright conference. It is going online. Not surprisingly. So it's held in May, the fifth, sixth and seventh, and they've got a call for papers out now just to let you know it does actually close. I think it is on Monday. So it's pretty soon. And if you want to get in there, but it's definitely a conference that's worth checking out. And also, there's been some really interesting developments on, you know, how fair dealings being interpreted in Canada. So it'd be a really good chance to get up to speed to that. Obviously we have Karis Craig and Bob Tarantino speaking who are Canadian on one of our previous webinars. So lots of really interesting topics that they're looking for proposals for. So if you've ever fancy going to Canada on Zoom, then this is your opportunity. So yeah, I just wanted to flag that one up, but you need to get your thinking caps on over the weekend. Oh, this is me as well. Isn't it? It is. You're on the ball today. Yes. I'm totally on the to do my tummy rumbling as well. I'm quite hungry. My microphone is very sensitive. So it can sometimes pick that up. So yes. So this is this is this is me in another with another hat on. So a chair of the information literacy group. But actually Chris and I got involved in the academic reading format study about six, five, six years ago where we did the sort of UK version of this study. It looks at students sort of preferences around reading academic texts. And if you haven't caught up on it, then I've got a blog post that gives you a bit of background, including some of the publications that came out of the earlier research. So it's all been led by Diane Mizraki, who's from UCLA, so California, and collaborating with her and a colleague, Alicia Salas, who's at Carnegie Mellon University. And we started chatting late last year about the findings from the study, but kind of what those might mean in a time of crisis and, you know, given that many of us are now pretty much exclusively supplying students with ebooks. So like, I'm not spoiling the kind of background to the research, but essentially the research finds that students don't really they struggle quite a lot reading in electronic only. You know, they do like to print things out if they've got to read them in detail, or obviously to have access to print books. And I just really felt that it was very timely to try to do another study. So if you want to help, essentially, there's details on the blog post, but you can drop me a line. The study is available. So it's been approved by UCLA's Ethics Board. It's up, and we're asking institutions in the UK to promote the survey to their students. And if then they want to get the data from their students, providing their students fill in the form that says what university are you from, then they can they can also register that with me. So you'd be able to get, we're certainly going to have really interesting data about students in the US, students in Canada, and students in the UK. And then you would be able to get your own institutional data, but I'm quite interested in looking, for example, whether UK students more broadly, you know, are there any differences between their preferences and students in other countries. So that's that's that's it from me. That's just a short update. It wasn't particularly short. Anyway, the, the other thing that we're very excited about this week is the most recent episode of copyright waffle. We've mentioned here that Dr. Ben Marsh of the Marsh family fame. Many people would have seen performing songs with his family during lockdown parody songs that works at the University of Kent. So, Jen and I spoke with him last week. So we've recorded an interview where he talks in depth about his, you know, his experiences navigating the world of copyright, YouTube content ID, algorithms taking things down, dealing with music publishers. You know, he talks about his copyright heroes. He, and he's such a nice guy, isn't he? He's, he's, he's, he's lovely. And he's quite a professional now after becoming an internet sensation appearing on late night TV in the US with the family performing and all sorts of things. So, yeah, it was, it was absolutely fantastic to, to, to talk to somebody who copyrights kind of wasn't a sort of major part of their work, but then suddenly, you know, was, you know, was something that they had to consider in a kind of really real and practical way. And it's, yeah, just kind of the whole thing about parodies is I think lots of people have always been interested in that. So it's, it's one, it's one to share widely, isn't it? Definitely. Yes, most definitely. Not just for the copyright geeks. Okay. So I see that there's a question from Kirsty. I've just put a quick answer. This isn't something that we plan to talk about in depth today, but I've suggested if we can come back to any other issues because what we want to do is actually move on to our guest presenter now. To make sure we get enough time to give Fabian some time to talk. So, Jane, you're going to introduce our special guest this week. Yes, I am. So Fabian Frank or hair doctor Fabian Frank is the director of the library at the University of Bamberg. And Fabian and I met in 2013, I believe it was in Istanbul when I was at the European Conference of Information Literacy. Fabian may correct me and say actually I wasn't at that conference, Jane. It was the year later, but I have a very strong memory of actually sitting down next to this chap on the coach going to a gala dinner that was held on a boat on the boss for us. So I am fairly sure I'm not making this up. But anyway, yeah, so we started chatting and found out that he was from Bamberg in Germany and he told me lots about this beautiful city. And we stayed in touch pretty much ever since. So Fabian was the chair of the information literacy group in Germany for a number of years, information competence. He invited me out to Berlin and we had a great time at a conference there at this huge, huge German library conference. And he was also he's also on the IFLA information literacy section group. But because, you know, he obviously he became interested in copyright, like, like you would. And so he's going to talk to us a bit about the research that he did on copyright literacy in Germany, some of the issues that have been coming up during the pandemic. So Fabian over to you. That's another short little intro from me. We'll get your slides up in a moment as well. And you can confirm perhaps if this is true about the that is where we met it was definitely. Yeah, I think it was in Istanbul. Yeah, I think I think so. So good morning to everyone. Hello from from Germany. Thank you very much for the invitation and for the introduction. Jane, it's a pleasure for me to be here and to discuss copyright matters with you. I won't show some photos of the beautiful city of Bamberg because we have a little time, but one of the next ACL European conferences on information literacy will take place in Bamberg. It was planned for last year, but of course it has been postponed. So I hope I see you all in Bamberg. One of the next years you can see Bamberg directly and personally. So now to copyright law and copyright literature in Germany. It's kind of a never ending story because we had in the last years every four or five years a change of copyright law new amendments. Today's copyright law is from 2018. And at the moment, we have a bill to adapt copyright law to the requirements of the digital single market. A new draft law with some minor changes concerning copyright for education and research. The big issues now are the ancillary copyright for past publishers. I think it's a worldwide issue. And the second one, at least an European issue, the responsibility of platforms for the contents that the users upload, keyword upload filters that are their main points. But now to the copyright exceptions for education and research. We have in Germany, of course, one of the easiest ones, right of quotation. And there's a right of quoting provided that the scope of use is justified by the particular purpose. There's no limit in length or whatever. But one has to prove that the quote is really necessary for the scientific purpose and the scientific research. Now a new, next new exception that was new in 2018, reproduction for scientific research. Up to 35% of the work can be reproduced for own scientific research. It must not be transmitted to third parties and it must not be published. But for own scientific research, it can be used. The amount has been improved in 2018 and I think that's a really good exception. A big issue, copyright exception for teaching. I think that's a very good exception we have in Germany. It is allowed to distribute digital or printed up to 15% of the published work to the students of a particular course. So not general in the net, but for the participation of a course. 15% of the work and also scientific journals, articles from scientific journals, but only from scientific journals. So it's not allowed to make newspaper articles available to the students. That's kind of a problem we still have. But I think that is really used nearly from all teachers at university and also at schools. Here we have some problems with the collecting societies. I come back to this a bit later. Then digital reading rooms, that's an exception for libraries. Libraries are allowed to make a work from the holdings accessible to the students at terminals in their rooms. That means terminals in the library. It's not allowed to make the works accessible in the university networks. And users are allowed to reproduce up to 10% of a work. That's a good exceptions for all these works, which cannot be licensed. Of course, we prefer to license ebooks. We prefer to buy digital materials. But if it's not possible, for example, if the publisher doesn't offer it to two libraries, or it's much too expensive, then this is the alternative. Of course, you have also paid to the collecting bodies. That's in one of the next slides. First of all, Interlibrary Loan. It's also regulated in the law. We may transmit electronically or in print up to 10% of a published work to individual users in the Interlibrary Loan. And also new in 2018 was an exception for text and data mining. Also very interesting for the researchers and scientists. And now it's updated in the new bill. And this year it will be updated. The law has not yet passed our legacy rotation. That means that the productions for text and data mining is allowed for scientific research. It may be made accessible for a defined group of people who are joining the research. It's not allowed to make it public in general. And the bad thing, if you want, as soon as a joint scientific research has been ended, also the public access is to be ended. Libraries may keep reproductions. Only as long as necessary, we don't exactly know what it means. How can you say how long it could be necessary? It will be interesting if this new law will be in effect. So we look at the most important problems we still have. One thing, of course, a reasonable compensation has to be paid to the collecting societies. Of course, that's okay. So at the moment we have agreements with the collecting societies. That's a bit complicated in Germany because education is a matter of the federal states. So not of the Bundestag, not of Germany at all in the whole. So we have agreements for the interlibrary loan of books and we have agreements for the digital reading rooms. But we don't have agreements for the digital interlibrary loan. What means we are at the moment not allowed to transmit copies digitally to our users. In fact, we have an exception from the exceptions. We now, due to the pandemic situation, we are allowed to transmit it digitally until the end of March. And we had it also last year for two months. But it's pretty sure that this exception will be ended. And then we still have no agreement and digital interlibrary loan is not allowed. And most even worse, we have no agreement for the teaching exceptions. The good thing is we are allowed to do this nevertheless. But we have to keep in mind and we had to save the money and to reserve the money that we will have to pay for it. Big problem, maybe one of the biggest, that most of these exceptions for libraries, also interlibrary loan and digital reading rooms and reproduction for own scientific use are limited. They are temporarily until March 2023 and nobody knows what happens. At this time, with the new legislation, will it be cut off? What will happen? So that's a really big problem. And that's the reasons why all our library associations need to make it up to politics and politicians that without these exceptions, there's no good teaching and research in Germany. So our demands are that we need a general exception for teaching and research. We have at the moment another big issue concerning to e-learning. So the lending of e-books that concerns mostly our public city libraries. There is no right, no general right to lend to borrow e-books. You have to license every e-book you want to lend with the publisher. And the publisher has the right to say no. So it's a fact for public libraries now, the new, the really new works, the new novels, they are not allowed to distribute electronically. That's a real big problem we have. And for teaching and research, we really need the permission to make articles from newspapers available to students, even with no license. How can you teach high school students if they are not allowed to read articles and if the teachers are not allowed to distribute articles to their students? So our library association had issued a statement, of course that's in German, a statement to the new bill and to the other copyright laws. So we are very active in Germany even from the library side to force hopefully a new and a better copyright law for education and research. Next point, what about the copyright literacy of the librarians? We have in Germany, so we made an online survey in 2019, two years ago, where we first asked the librarians how to rate your copyright literacy. We had over 300 answers. And what you see is that a large amount, more than 50% of the librarian think they are rather competent, good or very good about the exceptions for quoting and for digitization and reproduction. The knowledge goes down and is not really satisfactory in other things, especially publication rights or the exceptions for teaching. We then asked the librarians, is there a copyright officer at your library or at your university? About 40% don't have a copyright officer. Other 40% has a copyright officer or person responsible for copyright issues and advising students or researchers in the library and about 20% in the university. That's not too bad. Anything, maybe you can compare it with your situation in the UK, but still there are 40% that don't have an explicit officer or person who is responsible. And I don't think that this number did increase over the last two years. Additionally asked was which copyright related topics are covered in your library information literacy courses. It's not a real surprise that the matters where the librarians are competent quoting and digitization is also a matter in the courses. But we really could do more in teaching the publishing rights or by teaching the teaching exception concerning copyright. So what we did, now last question I want to show you, we asked the librarians, should copyright play a stronger role in the education of librarians? And do you want more library training courses and the copyright law? The librarians should evaluate on a scale between 1 and 100. And you see the need is very high, about 80 from 100 that it should be played a stronger role as well in the education and as well in the training of librarians. We compared our results with international results. Probably you know this very interesting multinational study about copyright literacy of information professionals. And first of all we look of copyright issues regarding digitization. So intimately it's about 40% of the librarians who think they are good or very good in these issues. Our findings in Germany, what concerns scanning, librarians think they are. They have a very good knowledge, about 60%, but the matters of digitization for teaching or digital reading, so I think we're rather in the midfield of the international results. Next look, copyright issues regarding often works, also about 20% of the German librarians who think their knowledge is good or very good, that's nearly around the international situation. Okay my last slide, just three conclusions or diseases which I really would like to discuss with you. Librarians should fight, librarians must fight, librarians must stand for better copyright law. That is a task for librarians and also for our library association to be in the game for better copyright law. Copyright should become an integral part and a stronger part of the education and training of libraries. And libraries should incorporate copyright issues, maybe much stronger than they do now into their information metric courses. So I am looking forward to your opinions. Thank you very much Fabian, yeah that was absolutely brilliant. Let me just say bye. Thank you very much, yes, yeah and really good points you're making in your last slide as well. Chris and I have just put in a couple of links to the articles, but you actually, you published didn't you? So I'll put a link, I think we do have your study, so I'll just find that and I'll put a link to the article that you wrote about copyright literacy in Germany. But it's really interesting to look at the comparisons as well and lots of really similar themes coming up. I'd quite like to go back to what you talked about at the start of the session though, where you were talking about the exceptions that you have or that you don't have in Germany. So you don't have an exception similar to illustration for instruction or illustration for teaching at the moment in German law, do you? That's kind of the crux of what's causing so many problems. No sir, we have the exception for teaching, that we have it in the copyright law, but we have no agreement with the collating societies about that. That's a problem. Yes, sorry to come in here, but just to make a really important point here, there is a key difference between how copyright exceptions work in the UK compared to many countries in Europe is that you have the exceptions, but they must be remunerated. So it's in the law that you can rely on an exception, but there needs to be money paid that then goes back to rights holder organisations. So it doesn't work in the same way where we could rely on illustration for instruction and there is no fees paid, but we have licenses arranged with the collecting societies. So am I just clarifying, and Nora's question, are there licensing groups in Germany? Yes there are, and the likes of Vargae Vort, which is the equivalent of CLA, but can you just explain to us how that's working with the exceptions then? Presumably you are paying money to Vargae Vort for making scans as we would with the CLA, but you can't rely on an exception unless you've come to an agreement about remuneration, is that right? Exactly, that depends. Of course there are both things. Of course it has to be exceptions in the copyright law and we need the agreements with the licensing groups, collecting bodies. We need both. If we don't have one, we cannot use it. And the negotiations between the science of the university's education and the collecting societies, the licensing groups have to be made by our federal states. That's the problem because education is a kind of federal state. So the federal states are negotiating with the licensing bodies. And then they have to come to an result, which amount of money we have to pay. And now we have this situation. We don't have this agreement for teaching.  The other thing is digital into a library loan. We don't have an agreement and we are not allowed to do it. So when the federal states are negotiating with the collecting societies, does each federal state have to do its own separate negotiations or do they come together? We are a group of a federal state, but in fact, every federal state has its own interests. There are richer federal states, which is, okay, we don't have to look exactly at the money, just make it clear. We have other who don't have much money who say, oh no, we have to look exactly what amount has to be paid. But of course, there is a group who negotiates with the licensing bodies. It's called the Kultusminister Conference. I just have to say, for the record, I love German words, where you just bolt them all together and make a really long word. What's your favourite word, Chris? My favourite word is Straßenbahn Hautestelle, as Fabian means. That's a red card. I have Donald Damschefatz Kapitins with him. Okay, and what is that one? That's a former wife of a captain of a ship on the Donald River. Brilliant. That word could be really useful, actually, for when we go to Bamberg. But can I go back to the question about the issues you have with your educational exceptions and the coming of the digital single market directive, where you have changes coming through, there is a new illustration for teaching exception at the EU directive level. Is that going to help the situation for you in Germany, or will they end up sticking with something which is still this uncomfortable, you know, federal clutch? I think, especially for teaching, if it helps us, not because there will be more exceptions. We have the same exceptions as the EU digital market has regulated, but in fact now also this exception for teaching is limited, is temporary. And now the plan is, it must not be temporary, so it will be extended because European market, European Union says so. So that's why it helps the EU directive, that's why the EU directive helps us. But not really in the exceptions itself. Right, I see. Okay, tricky. I think Jane wants to move on to some of the, I should say, Ur her berecht kompetenz questions around copyright literacy for librarians. You just love it, you just love it. Yeah, Evelyn picked up a point actually about librarianship courses. So you said that in the survey that librarians felt that they should learn more about copyright and that came through quite strongly. When we did our research, we actually did some research as well of library and information students a couple of years ago, which, you know, found that they felt that it wasn't something that was covered. In enough detail in their courses. Is, you know, has it been, has that been discussed in Germany about whether, you know, there should be more copyright literacy education for librarians when they're qualifying? And might that be dealt with by the German Library Association or something? Yeah, we discuss it, especially from the point of view which qualification is needed for librarians to teach copyright issues. And that's maybe a kind of dispute. So do you need a legal education to teach copyright literacy or is it sufficient that you have your library education, which, which has more focus on copyright issues. So that's a, that's an issue in the German discussion. But I think among teaching libraries, teaching librarians is widely accepted that copyright must be an issue in their courses. Yeah, yeah, I think that's an interesting point as well because we've had that whole discussion of, well, you're not trying to turn librarians into lawyers. You know, and I think for Chris and I, that's very much why we think this is about copyright literacy rather than just learning loads about the law.  You know, where it's, it's not always clear cards.  Of course, it's absolutely clear that we don't allow to give legal advice. Yeah, that must be absolutely clear.  And I'm just a librarian and physicist. Okay. But there's no legal advice. But I think we have to practice to see what's what's interesting and what does and what does our, what do our users need? Yeah, I think I mean it's an interesting point. I think to talk about, you know, librarians are not lawyers. It is something that keeps coming up. But I think what we, I think what we do see is a difference between people who are thinking about litigation and clearly if there is a likelihood of litigation, then you need lawyers involved in that. And then what librarians tend to deal with is the questions that come up all the time and understanding about how you manage those risks and how you what practices you put in place in your institution and what behaviors you would expect from library users. But mention of litigation, I mean, there have been some very major legal cases in Germany. And I'm thinking particularly about the Darmstadt case with the digitization and making available those materials in at a university. So what impact has that had on German institutions? Yeah, yeah. So we had this, this lawsuit before 2018, before this new copyright law went into effect. And the new copyright law make some of the most of the issues of this of this lawsuit very, very clear. So before 2018, it was not clear which amount of work can be made available to students. There was the formulation in the law was small parts of the work, but are small parts 10% or 15% or 5% that was one issue of the lawsuit. And now it's clear it's 15%. So today we don't have such large lawsuits in Germany about libraries and copyright. But the last sorts of students we have made clear that we need more concrete legislation. It possibly made, did it perhaps make the library community a little bit more nervous in Germany? Because I think that's often said in the UK that, well, we haven't had any sort of, you know, we haven't had any case law. We haven't had any universities involved in this. It's not to say that that's made us complacent at all, actually. I think there's still quite a lot of anxiety in the UK. But I just wondered if it had kind of made the library community feel we're going to need to do some more about this. I won't say we are nervous in general, but we are very cautious. Okay. That's very, very cautious. And if it's not really key, most librarians says we don't do it. If we are in danger to risk a law conflict or last week. Okay.  Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we've talked about that as well. I'm just wondering if anybody would like to ask Fabian a question. This is your opportunity if you want to come on the mic, if you've got something that you want to say. Chris and I can ask him questions probably until the end of the day. So it's always good to chat to you, Fabian. They're really interesting. But has anyone got anything? Lovely. Just to say while you're thinking if you do have any other questions, I put a link in the chat to. To the, the university Darmstadt case. And it's an Eiffel webinar that was a few years back, but it was Dr. Niels Rower who was the lawyer in that case explaining it. And I remember listening to that. It's a really great webinar if you want to get into the detail of it. I mean, I guess the question, the big elephant in the room is maybe not a question you could really answer Fabian, but it's about the fact that previously the UK was going to be fairly well aligned to Germany in the area of copyright law. But, but now, now we're not, I mean, I don't know whether you have any thoughts about the relationship between the UK and Germany when it comes to education and trying to consider legal act legal.  I mean, do you have, does Bamberg have links with UK universities where these legal questions are now more tricky? Or is it not so much of an issue at the moment? I mean, I think, of course, we have links exactly, especially exchange in students, the students exchange of both. And of course, it's a very bad situation. How much opportunities are for UK students to come to Germany and for German students and researchers to go to the UK. I mean, of course, this is a big issue we discussed. And of course, we all regret the UK's decisions to leave the, I think, really most of the Germans and all of the researchers and universities regret it very much. So, in fact, I have no idea what the leave means for copyright law. Well, it's being discussed in what it means in the UK, obviously, because, you know, it means we have the potential for our law to move further away from, you know, from Europe. And also, you know, for us not to, not to obviously we're not going to implement the digital single market. Nora's just popped a question into the chat, which is about whether you have any exceptions on copying for students with disabilities in Germany. Presumably you do the Marrakesh Treaty. Marrakesh Treaty, yes. Of course, I didn't mention it yet. We have it. So it's allowed to copy and to reduce it for impaired students, for students with blind students or whatever. Yeah, of course, we have it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. No, that's great. Well, that's, we've had some really great discussions. I think you're going to stay on the line after you Fabian. So if anyone thinks of anything, pop it in. But I'll take us back to our slides. But I just want to say thank you so much. Yeah. Go on. You say it, Chris. You say it. I was just going to say thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it was great to have you join us. And I think it's really useful to just do the compare and contrast between how the different laws actually impact in practice. So it's tricky for everyone at the moment. We can understand some of your pressures. And we definitely want to keep you, keep in touch with you. And under the auspices of our copyright and online learning, especially interest group as well, where we want to have a much more international outlook. And rather than just focusing only on what happens in the UK. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And I hope to keep contact with you. Mind me, do it anyway. So. And that's about copyright. Sure. Of course. Thank you very much. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Fabian. Don't run away. Don't run away. We haven't finished. I'm saying we, we, we always like to leave people with something nice and fun as well. And it's a good one this time. Well, before we get to that, before we get to that, we do have to just quickly touch on what we're doing next time. So we've mentioned the copyrighted online learning special interest group and we are actually having an update from the group in two weeks time. What have we been up to various working groups and plans that we have. So we'll be looking, looking forward to that one. Claire Kidwell put out on a link to a recent survey from the music library association YAML. And of course we just jumped on that immediately and said, okay, so when are you presenting on it? So she couldn't get away with without presenting. So we've got her coming up in, I think we're doing two weeks time aren't we? I think it's going to be the ninth, the ninth, yeah. The question of access to audio visual content under license as well. So I saw Kirsty raise that right at the outset. And Helen unfortunately couldn't stay with us. So we, we know that the situation when it comes to Brexit created an issue where box of broadcasts had an allowance for students, usually better in the UK, but temporarily in the EU could access box of broadcasts. But now that's changed with the, with Brexit, there is no reciprocal portability regulations in place for copyright law, which meant that era couldn't provide the license. And therefore box of broadcasts couldn't provide that service. So that's why institutions have now been getting a refund if they paid for that extra license fee. We've spoken to Helena under the auspices of the Copyright Negotiation and Advisory Committee because we know that there are, you know, the pandemic is changing. We are hopefully going to see people returning to campus, but we know that there's still a need to get remote access to content. And in fact, even like putting the EU question aside for many years, we've been asking era to allow access to recordings from UK TV and radio to any student anywhere in the world. But as she said, it's a very complex issue. We know that production companies, film companies are very protective of their copyrights. And we will, we've got access to some BBC news content and BBC Parliament because the rights issues are fairly straightforward. The other rights issues are very complex. So what we're proposing is getting to having a workshop where we can actually look through what kind of content is it that we need access to so that we can help target what era might be able to do on our behalf to try to speak to the right. Groups, the right rights holders and try to unblock where those are.  And I think we need to manage expectations of what we can do, but certainly we want to try to support, you know, what are our needs from the education community. Yeah, that's useful. There's a little curtsy popping in the chat as well that film for was one of the kind of things, you know, obviously film content is definitely something we know is a particular issue. So a channel like film for that has a whole wide range of films on it, you know, to have just I think letting Helena know that that's the kind of content we want is going to be really useful. So Fabian, we've got loads of lovely comments coming up in the chat with people thanking you. And I do hope you might come back and join us again for another session. We're hoping to have regular slots with with people from the international copyright literacy community. If anyone has other topics that they want to talk about in one of our webinars as a more of a discussion, or if they've got something to present on then as ever please drop us a line. But before we go, we have got one final thing, haven't we Chris? Well, yes we do. I think you hunked it up a bit much. It's not that amazing. But anyway, it's, it's moved the slide on, moved the slide on. So this was you had been listening to the Adam Buxton podcast. Oh look, my face has been disappeared. Right. Okay. We have to stop that. Let's see if we can actually get the slide there. You've done a very clever piece of photo shoppery, haven't you? I had. I had. So some of you think that we're the original Chris and Jane or Jane and Chris. But in fact, we're not. Are we? Of course. We're not. We're very famous Jane and Chris, or otherwise known as Torval and Dean, the ice skaters. And yeah, I stumbled across this podcast of them chatting and it's with that Adam Buxton. And it was quite amusing to me, partly because he's interviewing two people week, sometimes the two of us try to interview one person. And we, there we go. We thought, what do you think to that? So, I mean, it is a thing of beauty, isn't it? I think people can definitely now envisage us, take into the ice. But if you do want to have a listen to, if you're like a child of the 1980s, remember their Bolero, then it's definitely one to have a listen to. But for me, it was certainly, it was quite interesting just hearing this constant talk about the original Jane and Chris. So that's something to leave you to. I'm impressed that Caroline met them at the Nottingham Ice Rink as well once. So I'm sure they weren't as fun and animated as us, were they? Okay, everyone, that's it. It's 12 o'clock. Have a good. Oh my goodness. There's a really good part. Coffee rice. Oh, no. Let's stop the recording there everyone. And thank you all. See you in two weeks.


Good morning, everyone. It's been just over a year since the first major flight we organized to bring Canadians home from overseas. When we were coordinating emergency repatriations last winter, our priority was doing whatever it took to keep people safe. And from that moment right through to today, that continues to be what we're focused on. From border measures to vaccines to rapid testing to the wage subsidy, we're using every tool in the toolbox to get us all through this crisis. Let me start with some news on border measures. As of February 15th, when you return to Canada through a land border, you'll need to show a 72-hour PCR test, just like for air travel. Today, I also have some news to share on vaccines. This week, tens of thousands of Pfizer vaccine doses will be delivered to Canada. This is good news for so many people who will be getting their dose. We know we all want to feel that relief of getting vaccinated, of watching our loved ones get vaccinated, where we're all eager to know when it's going to be our turn. I can tell you we are still very much on track for tens of millions of doses into the spring and for everyone who wants to be vaccinated, vaccinated by September. Moving forward, in the coming weeks and months, we're going to get even more doses, even faster, so we can all move through this together. Next week marks the start of a major ramp-up in vaccine shipments. Starting on the 15th, we're expecting hundreds of thousands more doses each week, and that's just from Pfizer. There are also other vaccine candidates currently in the approval process, and the top experts at Health Canada are working around the clock to ensure that any of these new vaccines approved is both safe and effective. We've already administered more than a million vaccine doses against COVID-19 in Canada. These vital doses have been administered to your parents in a long-term care facility, to your nurse, or to your neighbor who is offered a personal support service. And that's just the beginning. We're going to continue these efforts until all Canadians who want to be vaccinated. This week, tens of thousands of additional doses of Pfizer have arrived, and several other millions are coming. As for the vaccines, things are happening as planned, despite temporary delays. We're going to receive 20 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna during spring. Other vaccine candidates are in approval process. Health Canada experts are working very hard, and you can be certain that any vaccine approved will be safe and safe. I confirm that you and your family will be able to get you vaccinated this September. But even if everything goes as planned when the vaccines will be delivered to Canadians, we're not out of the woods yet. By keeping your distance, washing your hands, and wearing a mask, you continue to contribute to the efforts against COVID-19. You must not give up. This morning, I also want to talk about where we are with testing. Rapid testing is key to keeping this virus under control, especially in schools, long-term care homes, and workplaces. Last Friday, this is something I spoke about with Dr. Jeanine McCready in Toronto. She and her team have spearheaded an innovative testing program at several schools, getting tests directly to communities that need it. In some neighbourhoods, she told me that as many as one in five tests, that's 20%, come back positive. Clearly, there's real need for this testing. Her work shows that when people can get screened for COVID-19 and then get their results quickly, we can stop the spread. And this is true right across the country. Here in Ottawa, a recent program to test asymptomatic students and their families found several positive cases. Since they weren't showing any symptoms, without testing, these kids would have been in a busy classroom. But because of ramped-up testing, their families knew to isolate at home instead. Testing widely and often reduces transmission. That keeps cases down, and it keeps people safe. Our government has sent 19.6 million rapid tests to the provinces and territories with more on the way. We all want to see cases go down. We know that these tests can make a difference. Tests must be deployed, they can't be allowed to expire. And testing, like more contact tracing and vaccines, are going to be an essential part of the months forward as we get past this virus and this pandemic as quickly as possible. We all need to keep working together on all these different aspects to make sure we get through this summer in right form. In addition to talking about the need to use the testing tests during our regular meetings with the prime ministers, we are now working with the private sector to deploy these rapid tests in the working environment at the country's scale. The testing is effective, and we want to ensure that the testing tests are used. These essential tools will help us go through the months forward and to reduce the vaccination period as much as possible in the best possible way. As Canadians, we all look forward to spring this year more than ever. But I know we can all agree that there's one part of the season nobody likes, tax filing. Even so, it's important to file your taxes so you get things like the Canada Child Benefit, the work from home deduction, and the Climate Action Incentive. These benefits and credits can really help, especially after such a tough year. So that's what you should be able to focus on. Right now, I don't want you to have to worry about what you may owe in taxes. That's why we're providing one year without interest on certain 2020 tax debt, giving people more flexibility to repay amounts owing from last year. If you received federal emergency benefits, like the Serb, and you made up to $75,000 in taxable income, you will not have to pay interest on 2020 tax debt until April of next year.  This last year has been quite difficult for those who have lost their jobs or those whose hours have been reduced. So that you can get back on your feet without worrying about paying taxes. Last year, more than 8 million people had a chance at the PCU to pay their rent and put food on the table. I know that some people have underlined precise information about the requirements on net income and gross income to qualify for the PCU. We want to clarify the question. People who have presented a demand based on their gross income rather than on their net income will not return the payments that have been paid to them as long as their demands also respect other eligibility criteria. For people who accessed Serb based on their gross income instead of their net income, as long as you meet the other eligibility criteria, you will not have to return those Serb payments. When we rolled out Serb last March, it was because people needed help in the face of a global, once-in-a-generation crisis. Well, the pandemic isn't yet over, so neither is our support. If you need help while you look for work, the Canada Recovery Benefit and Enhanced EI are there for you. If you need to take time off to care for your family, look to the Canada Recovery Caregiver Benefit. If you need to stay home from work because you're sick, the Canada Recovery Sickness Benefit is there to help. And if you need support on payroll for your employees or costs for your businesses, the wage subsidy and business loans are made for you. It's not easy to run a business from home or adapt to new public health rules. Yesterday, I spoke with Karen and Fahiye. They're two young black entrepreneurs who have big plans. Karen showed me her photography studio and talked about the great work she's doing, supporting black-owned businesses and products and her excitement about moving forward to a bricks and mortar storefront as we move through this pandemic. Right now, she's all online. And Fahiye talked to me about the costs of shipping coffee across the country and his excitement about building his business and also moving towards opening a coffee shop once we get through this pandemic as well. They all have big plans. And for all the young entrepreneurs across the country, all the entrepreneurs who are looking to go digital, to change their way of doing things, to grow through this pandemic and beyond, know that we are there to help you get through the hurdles and barriers in your way and create success, not just for you, but for employees, for community, and for our whole economy. We're here to support Canadian business owners from training on e-commerce to targeted initiatives like the Black Entrepreneurship Program and the Women Entrepreneurship Strategy because no matter who you are, an entrepreneur, a worker, a parent, we've got your back. This pandemic is not easy for anyone. In addition, winter can make all of this even more difficult. During February, sometimes we feel that spring will never come. It's normal if we don't feel at the top of our form. Don't forget that there are resources to help you. And by the way, this Thursday, it's the national day of the 2-1-1 service, which reminds us that we all have access to a line of confidential and free help by composing the 2-1-1. If you need a mental health support or training on community services, don't hesitate to compose the number. The service is offered 24 hours on 24 in 150 languages. The agents at the top of the line will help you find the right resources. You are not alone. So please, ask for help and take care of yourself. Before I close, I'd like to take a moment to recognize a great public service. Ian Sugard, the clerk of the Privy Council. Ian has been an extraordinary leader through this public health crisis. He's leading the public service in tremendous efforts and supports to get Canadians through this pandemic. And as he faces health challenges, I want him to know that we're all pulling for him. Thank you very much, everyone.


The Cube at OpenStack Summit at Lata 2014 is brought to you by Brocade. Say goodbye to the status quo and hello to Brocade. And Red Hat. Here are your hosts, John Furrier and Stu Miniman. Okay, welcome back everyone here. Live at OpenStack Summit in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANG. I'm Joe Mike Coates, Stu Miniman. This is The Cube. It's our flagship program. We go out to the events to extract the signal from the noise. Our next guest is Lou Tucker, VP, CTO of Cloud Compute with Cisco Systems. Also vice chair of the foundation. Welcome to The Cube. Thank you. So you guys had a late board meeting last night into dinner. It was a late dinner. Big activity. I mean, the foundation now has done a good job of kind of putting the heat shield up a couple of years ago. You saw everyone jumping into one big marketing event. Oh, OpenStack's going to be this thing. And so you saw a lot of cloud washing. Peak cloud washing days a couple of years ago.  We actually always hoped it would be like this. And we felt that by bringing together a lot of the experienced veterans in the industry who are on the foundation, representing their companies and everything else, like we could guide it in this way, with a very strong technical component. So it's always been that combination of those of us on the board, but the real strength of the community, it's in the code that is being written by the contributors, you know, day in and day out making OpenStack better. So you're talking to Eileen Evans. Just was on earlier with HP, deputy counsel with HP. She's on the board with you. You guys know each other from the Sunday. So I got to ask you the question. I mean, the cloud is one big distributed computer. If we're in an API economy, in a way it's a large supercomputer. It's a large mini. Well, you know, having built massively parallel supercomputers back in thinking machines days, and then many, many years at sun, we always knew the network is the computer. And so now actually, we're realizing that that is becoming a one big, the internet is one big computer. And certainly is happening right now. So like Scott McNeely said in the Cube, I should have just called it cloud. So I got to ask you, systems guys are back. I mean, you know, you've seen a lot of the, you said older, older guys, they should kind of come in together. That's kind of what's happening. Linux set the table as a, you know, as a chief alternative to the, to the proprietary stuff back in the day. Now Linux is the first class citizen in the enterprise. Now Linux build on that. And here we are. So systems is back in vogue. If you're a systems guy, it's good, right? Oh yeah, yeah, it's cool. Now, I mean infrastructure is cool. And actually people are asking, you know, a lot of the questions about it. And so that I think that we're seeing a resurgence in people looking at it from a systems point of view. And now it's at all the different layers. Because then that's what OpenStack is about. I think it's creating a truly unique layer in the new software stack for the data center. So just like middleware years ago, that we had, everybody said there's middleware. Here we have TIPCA, we've got app servers and everything else. Now I think it's this cloud platform, is that new middle, middleware that's moving into these things. And OpenStack is in the, is in the lead. So Lou, can you give us a little bit of insight into the inner workings of what's going on in OpenStack?  So we're up to the alphabet up to I. That's right. We've made it easy for people by trying to keep it alphabetical. Do you know the next? Yeah, absolutely. But you know, people say, okay, we've been working on this for what, four years or so, and why isn't everything done? And you and I were talking offline that there's a bit of grumbling in the community that like Neutron, the networking stack, has some challenges and has some problems. So what's so difficult about what we're trying to do? We've taken on a really big challenge here. This is to build a in open source, a very new cloud platform that anybody can take and deploy their essentially their own Amazon in-house, you know, for a variety of different use cases. So the use cases span everything from a cloud service provider that we see, for example, HP and Rackspace and others providing those kinds of things, to somebody running it like Comcast who wants to run it on Xfinity. Those are very different sort of use cases. So that we've been fortunate because I think we structured the process around projects. And those projects are a compute project, NOVA, a storage one, SWIFT, a networking one around Neutron. That allowed the experts to get together. If it was all one big thing, we wouldn't have made anywhere near the progress that we'd seen. We still have a long ways to go. I mean, I think that we're seeing very rapid adoption, but it is by people who actually know they have to take on quite a bit. What we're trying to do, which was even mentioned this morning in the keynote, is a company like Comcast now is a contributor. So this is, I think, the new phenomena that companies are not looking to just go to a vendor and get a piece of software and install it and let the vendor do all the work. They actually want to be a part of this. And that's why we're seeing a lot of the service providers involved in an open source community. That's actually the first time I've seen service providers be actively involved in a community effort like this. So Lou, when I think of Cisco, I think about the people that have built their career off of being a Cisco administrator. You've got this army of CCIEs in the life. Exactly. It's a very different skill set than the folks that you see at this show. You're one of the leading people at Cisco that helped bring Cisco to the community. I think we want to take that whole community of CCIEs and we have to move their careers along. When they hear that they're actually, that they can, with a few lines of Python or Puppet scripts or whatever, start to orchestrate all the things that they were doing manually. They love it. It takes training. It takes education. And we are actively working with the CCIE community to educate them about this phenomena. And because it is open, it's freely available. The source code is there. You can read it. It's accessible to them. Lou, talk about what's different about this new philosophy because what you're essentially talking about is DevOps meets thinking machines, meets sun. You mentioned a member of the digital world. You were thinking machines. Yeah. Remember that startup in Cambridge, wasn't it? 65,000 processors all working in parallel. Just amazing. But back then, that was cutting edge. But now, these young developers, they come in, oh, I'm just going to get some Rails and some MongoDB and I'm good. I'm going to build a hyperscale. You might be able to maybe do some hacking, but to bring this system's mindset in there, what do these guys have to do? How do you take DevOps and cross them over to mainstream productive developers in this new framework? Well, DevOps is that intersection of software getting involved in these operational processes that we used to do by having a run book and you'd have a sequence of steps that some system administrator would go through in order to provision a new employee in their database. Now, we're recognizing that script. That can be made into a script. So we're seeing actually the between Puppet and Chef and Python. We're seeing kind of resurgence in these easier to use scripting languages, even though Python's going far beyond that, that are accessible in the people who used to do these things manually. With reuse too. With reuse. That's the whole point, because otherwise you can't, we want to take that, what one administrator used to do a thousand times and now he writes it once and he presses a button a thousand times. What's going to change in open source in your opinion and just look around the corner? Obviously, as open source matures and matures and matures, you know, some practices, certainly the ethos has never changed, but like in terms of mainstream, what do you see changing? In fact, I think OpenStack is a new kind of open source project in which the original code development is done in the open. This is not something that was developed as a product that was then decided to open source it. So to have a community of this size working on this bigger project with over a thousand contributors working together on these projects, just the way we manage that process itself is becoming something of an art. And so I know that you had Monty Taylor on here before he's running the infrastructure project, being able to say, how do we get all this stuff tested? How do we get all of these releases built? How do we integrate all of these projects? We are using automation. It's all about automation, automation, automation. We have to have the tools so it's all... You're writing the modern book of software development in this kind of way. And it may even change the way that we deploy applications. You don't get it on CD anymore. You'd be pointing to a GitHub repository. Versioning control, everything integrates. That's right. Lou, about a month or so ago Cisco launched InterCloud. I'm wondering, can you help us squint through that press release as to what it is and how does that fit into the whole OpenStack movement? Absolutely. We recognize, I think, by Cisco, first of all, we have a lot of SaaS applications. And many of the companies that we will probably continue to bring into the Cisco pool will be SaaS-based. So first and foremost, we started as an attempt to say we need a place to run all these SaaS applications. And many of those, for example, WebEx was already being ported to run on top of OpenStack. And so we started to make OpenStack the foundational element for this. We then decided to go further because to have one... Is Cisco actually hosting those SaaS applications? At a Cisco facility? Yes, absolutely will be. That'll be a part of InterCloud. So part of the InterCloud vision is and it's not just one data center, it's a global set of data centers. And it's not just Cisco data centers, but it's data centers that are provided by our partners. So we are able to put InterCloud into our larger partner community of service providers and now take all of the Cisco services and deliver them through that kind of cloud. And so that we're doing this in concert with our partners where before there was concern you would compete with your service providers. We decided, and something I learned from the Sun Microsystems, we were doing Sunclat, you do things with your partners, you actually have a bigger, broader reach. Right, so it's a combination of service providers having facilities but there also will be Cisco facilities and they'll be connected. Yes, I mean we will put the gear there and we will run it and operate it for them and yet they bring it into the customer base. Can you share with us, what is Cisco's, obviously you have a lot of software but when it comes to SaaS applications, what's kind of the breadth of the software? One of the ones I like to talk about is we all know WebEx. So WebEx is obviously one of those SaaS delivered applications around the globe. And Meraki, it's a change in management. So how do you now, what would enable an easier management paradigm for people who are wireless access points? Well Meraki now does that from the cloud. I think we're going to see more and more of those applications move to the cloud for management of ordinary things like your wireless access points, make it easier that way. So OpenStack played a key role in this because we say how, what is the platform that we are going to now, what is the cloud platform we're going to use in all of these data centers? And that was very clear that it was going to be OpenStack because Cisco, time and again we're finding WebEx is going there, we're going to put Meraki there. A lot of the network function virtualization is going on top of OpenStack. Our video properties are going on OpenStack. So OpenStack is becoming a foundational element of Cisco's total strategy. I was at the 30th anniversary of the Mac in Cupertino a couple of months ago because a bunch of my buddies- Did you get a Mac one? A Mac one? I wasn't involved but I didn't get to sit in the VIP because some friends of mine are old enough to be on the Mac team. But it was fun to have kind of a geeky night celebrating kind of the day, talking about shoving 1K, bartering over 1K from MacPaint and hearing the guys talk. But it really kind of highlighted what at that point was the tinkering, which is the homebrew computer club. Now you're seeing that tinkering coming back and with OpenCompute, Raspberry Pi, you're seeing hardware being a big part of it. So I got to ask you that someone who's been there done that from a couple different cycles, you've seen the innovation. You don't have to be someone's uncle to get a motherboard of Intel. You can get it anywhere now. You can get hardware. My interns are working around with a notebook with a little suitcase, which is an OpenStack cluster. And so they have in there six nodes or whatever, running OpenStack. They can open it up. They can walk in. Let me show you what OpenStack looks like. This is a huge new thing. And even at IBM Impact, we were looking at some of the things there. These young developers, they want to hook up a drone, put some hardware on it, you know, GoPro camera. It's a great time to be a developer here. It really is. And so anybody out there who's not coding, you're missing an awful lot of the fun that's happening today. Let's talk about the OpenCompute. What is that? That's a huge thing. That potentially is the next home, bro. What do you think about what's going on with OpenCompute? I think we're seeing the sort of advantage of Open being applied in lots of these different areas. Even in terms of hardware architecture. So can we open source the architecture that we want a computer to be built out of that we can have a lot more input into it? I know it's just that even back at Sun, we were talking about open sourcing or Spark architecture. So each one of these layers, I think can benefit by having more and more people looking at it, more and more contributors going into it. And it does require a changing business model on the part of vendors for how then are they going to continue to either differentiate or provide the value. It's a great time to be a developer. So I got to ask him on a personal note. He had four kids. One's freshman in college. A lot of other parents I talked to have kids. And the question is, oh, I want to get involved in computer science. And one parent, I won't say their name because they're a friend. Oh, I enrolled them into a Java class. I'm like, oh, don't do that. Not that I didn't think it's Java. But there's more fun to do other things. So I want to ask you, what do you see out there that would help kids get addicted to the funness of computer science? I mean, Java class for an eight-year-old, I wouldn't suggest that's my personal opinion. Python they can do actually with that age. I'm surprised at how young kids do when they pick up a programming language.  I mean, that's also something that they could actually show to other people. There's a lot of tools out there for doing this. They can share. They can share that. And it would mean something to them immediately. Yeah, instant gratification, something where they can get instant gratification. We are living in that age. Is there any cool things that you've seen that you'd like to point out? No, I'm as interested actually also in the whole idea of open data. So you've got open compute, open data, for example, in San Francisco, the city has made available the data stream for available parking lots, a parking spot. So that means that people now can develop applications for their mobile phones that anybody can use to promote. The OpenStreetMap project was pretty successful as well. That was very open data. I was talking to the founder of Factual, you know that company, Factual? Yeah, very much into the open data. Five of C is dead now. Five of C is going to be... Okay, we're here at the OpenStack Summit. Lou, final question. I want to get you to share your own words to the folks out there. Why is this point in time 2014 so different than other major sea changes or tectonic shifts? Whatever you want to call it. What's so special about right now happening in the tech industry in the world? I'm not so sure it's that different than what we're going to see in the future. I think it's the beginning of a new set of changes that we're seeing. We're changing. Networking has become virtualized and that we're the whole notion of what is a network of change. We've introduced even with Neutron. Yes, it's had its rough spots because it's the first time anyone tried to build a network as a service. So I think it's the beginning of a new set of changes that you're going to see. And people will point back to this time and say, I remember when we just sort of started to see OpenStack have its first real confidence. Remember when Lou Tucker was on theCUBE talking about that? Yeah. Only 4,000 people. Only 4,000 people. Can you imagine that? I think, yeah, new user experience. Lou, great to have you on theCUBE and hear your perspective. Obviously, your experience and the industry has been great. And to share that with us is being involved as vice chairman of the OpenStack Foundation. It's been a great testament. Congratulations. And Cisco's obviously got some new activities going on. I've been following them pretty closely. This is theCUBE here, live in Atlanta with Lou Tucker of Cisco Systems Vice Chair of Foundation. We'll be right back at the short break. Thank you so much.


Day four of the WISIS 2015 conference and delegates are out of the big auditoriums and down to business at workshops throughout the day. Workshops have been divided into three streams – interactive, country workshops and thematic. One of the first items on the agenda was just such a thematic session – the high-level dialogue on empowering women to innovate through technology. Presenting at the workshop was Helen Sherpman of the European Commission. We were talking about different gaps for women to access technology, careers and skills in different ways. Also presenting at the event was Roxana Ruggina, representing the Romanian arm of Simplon.co. This is a group that aims to train underprivileged women and others computer coding. Simplon is actually a concept of learning. We try to teach non-technical people, especially coming from disadvantaged areas, and groups like women, but also kids and unemployed people. We teach them how to code. We teach them how to code to make apps, to find a job or make a business. If there has been a recurrent theme at the WISIS 2015 forum, it's how to build trust. Trust issues are not necessarily just between end users, email users, social network users and their providers. It can be a question too for sovereign states. We have five works in this new world order. We mustn't forget the sovereign state. Whatever we think of them, whether some of them we like them or not, we have to remember that in what's known now as the multi-stakeholder approach, that the state, governments of states, are vitally important in building global trust in cyberspace. Of course the WISIS forum is about more than just the sessions. Informal conversations and heads-to-heads are taking place all over the ITU, people sharing their ideas and their initiatives. You'd be surprised who you might see passing through. Father Paul Tai is the envoy of the Holy See. The Holy See wanted to highlight the fact that the new technologies are an extraordinary blessing for humanity. They have the potential to enable us as a human race to work together, to express our solidarity and concern for one another, and as such we rightly believe they should be celebrated. At the same time, I think we just wanted to say one thing, is that we need to realise that the technologies themselves are not going to solve all the problems of the world. That there's a need for real human commitment for individuals and institutions to take responsibility to ensure that we realise this potential. And that means that we try and make sure that all our discussions and all our conversations are truly inclusive. Also, just on its way out of a workshop on e-business, was startup entrepreneur Alexandre Butto. So we're a Swiss based startup and what we do is we realise that there's a big issue. If you want to bank those, there are two billion people which are unbanked in the world and most of them are in the developing world. And we've realised that so far we've tried to push, and when we say we is the development world and the financial sector, we've tried to push individual based financial services, be it loans or accounts. And this is the way it works in Europe. But in Africa, in Asia, in Latin America, it's actually a collective way of savings. People's saving group and people lend to each other in groups. So we want to actually revolutionise finance by making it collective. It's a complicated puzzle of ideas being presented here at the WISIS 2015 forum. Now the question is how to take those pieces, put them together to make the puzzle. Join us tomorrow for the fifth and final day of the forum where delegates aim to do just that. Pull the ideas and action lines together to build a vision for the future.