Stories and content in Weird Darkness can be disturbing for some listeners and is intended for mature audiences only. Parental discretion is strongly advised. Dionne Warwick once asked if you, the listener to her song, knew the way to San Jose. The truth is, there are a number of roads that lead into and out of that particular area, but only one of them is likely to give you the kind of creeps that could send you packing for another area, say Baltimore. Hicks Road runs through the county, dodging in and out of populated areas and in some places cutting through vast swaths of nothing. On a moonlit night in one of the most barren stretches, this road is lonely, eerie in its silence as it gives up the day's heat in a slow, crawling, invisible shimmer. And if you happen to be passing through, the best advice you can take is to just keep on going until you reach the relative safety of civilization. And maybe don't look out your side windows.  Local scary legends refer to them as the blood albinos, pale, ghostly beings who descend from the dark nothing upon unsuspecting travelers, shrieking wraiths with eyes of a red so dark that in the nighttime there could be nothing but black holes leading into an infinite universe of terror. Their wail is said to be bone-chilling, and so far there hasn't been a witness who wasn't driven away from this lonely section of road screaming himself or herself horse. Who are these foul creatures of the night, and why are they so hell-bent, pardon the expression, on chasing people away from this section of Hicks Road as if it is their territory? Those who are close enough to see the blood albinos generally don't take the time to investigate further if rumors are to be believed. Some say this is just one of California's famous urban legends. However, experts in the multifarious paranormal fields have taken a long hard look at this phenomenon, and there are more than a few theories floating around. I'm Darren Marlar and this is Weird Darkness. Welcome, Weirdos. This is Weird Darkness. Here you'll find stories of the paranormal, supernatural, legends, lore, the strange and bizarre, crime, conspiracy, mysterious, macabre, unsolved, and unexplained. Coming up in this episode...  Washington Irving did a fantastic job of painting that picture for us. It's too bad headless horseman legends are just that, legends. Well, that is until they're not. In 1970, two teenage girls were murdered at Denver's Lumber Baron Inn. Today, their killer is still unknown, but some guests say the victim's ghosts still roam the halls.  A when to go. Unexplained murder cases are, sadly, a reality, but in most cases you at least know who the victim is or who the murderer is. In the case of Princess Doe, however, there is no identity for the victim, no identity for the murderer, and there is no reason anyone has found for the brutal crime. With so many television shows, movies, documentaries, and genre artwork, you might think, you know, just about everything there is to know about the Wild West. But there are a few stories that are so strange, you might think they came right out of the mind of a fiction novelist. But first, situated alongside Alamedon Quicksilver County Park, Hicks Road has become legendary in San Jose, California, for all the wrong reasons. If you ever mention it in driving directions, you'll get a no-way Jose response and a request for a different route. Hearing stories about what makes Hicks Road so creepy might turn you as ghostly white as the supposedly Satan-worshiping albinos rumored to inhabit the area. It's the legend of Hicks Road. We begin with that story. If you're new here, welcome to the show. While you're listening, be sure to check out WeirdDarkness.com for merchandise, my newsletter, the winner contests to connect with me on social media. Plus, you can visit the Hope in the Darkness page if you're struggling with depression or dark thoughts. You can find all of that and more at WeirdDarkness.com.  California has its fair share of myths and lore, and one of the most well-known San Jose urban legends involves stories of people being attacked on Hicks Road. In these Hicks Road horror stories, there is allegedly a colony of strange and vicious individuals who lurk in the darkness, going after anyone who tries to get too close. Rumors about the colony at Hicks Road have persisted for decades upon decades, but is there any validity to these stories? When considering if there are any real facts about the Hicks Road albinism colony, it's important to keep in mind that people with albinism aren't somehow inherently evil. Even suggesting this is rather absurd and offensive. Rather, these tales speak of cannibalism and satanic cults, but these aren't the traits of people with albinism by any means. That said, this is a myth from San Jose that just won't end. It helps that there are a ton of witnesses willing to speak about their experiences on Hicks Road, a place teens still dare to venture to in the middle of the night. There are several theories about how this supposed vicious clan came to live near Hicks Road. The legend has been around since the 1970s or possibly earlier and has persisted well into the modern age. However, the urban legends' origins are up for debate. One thing the stories all have in common, though, is that the people live as part of an organized colony. One suggestion for where this rumored colony could have come from is that it's related to a Swedish community based at the entrance of Uvus Canyon Park. This group of people don't have albinism, but they can be very fair-skinned. Others say it began with the United Technologies Corporation, located on nearby Metcalfe Road. This is a scientific research facility where technology is tested. This is the sort of facility that would incite rumors of genetic mutations. Some say a religious community, cult-like and possibly satanic, called the Holy City in the nearby Santa Cruz Mountains, is where the rumors started. It's quite likely, says one psychic, that these are echoes of some former territorial band of people who at one time lived in the region. Why they should present as albinos seems obvious to me. They are not albinos, they are ghosts, and people see them as ectoplasm. Other experts are not so sure. One, a Harvard graduate who is currently traveling the country researching a book on the paranormal, stated that he believed them to not only be albinos, but also that they are in fact real flesh-and-blood creatures. I wouldn't be surprised at all, he says. If these things exist in that area alone in the world, perhaps the last vestiges of some dying race of creatures from another world or another dimension, maybe they are not even that dissimilar to us except for their basic nature. Whatever they are, they are pure unadulterated evil.  Whatever the origin, the legend has long been passed around in schoolyards and classrooms around the area. Supposedly, the clan isn't too friendly to outsiders. Legend has it they will chase visitors out. In some cases, they use cars and trucks to chase down vehicles and run people off the road. Other times, they will give chase on foot. In one account, a visitor to Hicks Road recalls what happened when a friend came across a dead deer on the road. Without warning, Dan's car collided with something. A large, dark figure is what blurred before Dan's eyes as he slammed on the brakes. When the car came to a rest, the headlights revealed a large buck sprawled across the street, clearly not moving. As all of the occupants of the car realized what had happened, another dark figure appeared from the roadside, except this figure split into three separate entities. Moving quickly into the road, the headlights now showed three humans with pasty white skin and bloodshot eyes.  It remains to be seen what might happen to a person if he or she doesn't flee in terror at the sight and sound of these creatures. Then again, perhaps it has already happened and we just don't know about it because that person was never found. Although the creepy factor for this legend more has to do with strange, pale figures chasing people in the dark, another spooky aspect is that these mysterious people are apparently also quite aggressive. The stories say that those who've encountered the people with albinism have seen them sporting improvised weapons, even guns in some cases. There are no accounts of them actively taking a life, but they do seem to use these items to threaten people off of their turf. In yet another personal account, one individual recalls an encounter with one such armed figure. We pulled off into the first turnoff and the truck slammed on its brakes behind us, high beams still shining bright, and the driver opened his door and exited, carrying a large object which, in our retellings of the story, has been everything from a shotgun to a fishing pole. The screams from our vehicle could be heard from Quick Silver Park to Old Almodin and we hit the gas and raced off of Hicks as quickly as possible. One version of the Hicks Road legend states the individuals are afflicted with a genetic disorder, but they are also linked to the devil. There are rumors that the colony on Hicks Road is part of a secluded cult that worships Satan. Their attacks on people at night may actually be how they gather human sacrifices or possibly just how they keep people away from their evil practices. The Satanic cult rumor goes one step further, claiming visitors to the road can call upon the cult for revenge on enemies. According to the tales, a bridge near Hicks Road has been cursed by the cult. Those who write a person's name on the bridge will be granted the demise of that person. A difficult thing to prove, of course, but an even darker reason to track down Hicks Road. Possibly the most frightening aspect reported about this evasive colony is that they are supposed cannibals. Stories depict them carrying off deer, trying to bite into humans and even going after family pets. In particular, one story claims a colony member carried off a poodle in the night. Bones of dogs have been found in the area, further fueling the rumor. If the rumors that the colony has satanic ties is true, this may also account for their craving for flesh. Adding to an already terrifying prospect, not only might any visitor to Hicks Road come upon the vicious mob, they are apt to hear them as well. As though glowing red eyes and weapons aren't intimidating enough, the individuals on Hicks Road are known to scream out in terrifying unearthly tones. The shrieking echoes in the darkness, resulting in those who claim to have heard, if not seen, the horde to run. The prospect of hearing screams in the area is enough to keep many from daring a visit. Though, of course, the sounds could just be barn owls or coyotes, but who can say for sure? A more supernatural theory suggests that the pale-looking individuals are not humans at all. Given their appearance and tales of their strange screaming and violence, some have suggested that they may not be of this earth. Instead, the terrifying attackers might be ghosts, as the psychic suggested earlier. This legend has been so long ingrained in the culture of San Jose that it has even inspired several works of art. One man wrote a novel about the phenomena and another group created a horror movie based on the colony. The film was a student film project that came out in 2009. It can be found online and the film, simply entitled Hicks Road, is described on IMDb.com as follows. The urban legend of Hicks Road has captured the minds and thoughts of many residents in San Jose, California, and especially the imagination of four college students that grew up hearing the story again and again. These four curiosity seekers attempt to find out what is really going on in the shadows of Hicks Road, but little do they know that what lies ahead will haunt and change them for the rest of their lives. Of course, as with any local legend, there are often real and rational reasons for the stories. For one, there is no record of a group of people with albinism living near San Jose. While such an organized group could, theoretically do so, to stay off the grid, there would likely be some official trace of them. One pronounced group of people in the San Jose area is the local homeless population. The jungle, one such community, was so big that it literally contained over 300 people during its height. More of these encampments in smaller sizes dot the city and its surrounding areas, including the region and parks near Hicks Road. Such a population may currently live near the area of the supposed tax or lived there at one time. Because there have been homeless encampments in the area for so many decades, this may be part of where the legend came from. Although the stories most direct people to Hicks Road, there are stories of the possibly murderous colony all over the city of San Jose. They are said to frequent Quicksilver Park, especially as there are supposed mines nearby to hide in. Stories say that people live in these mines, people who may be the same colony from Hicks Road. An abandoned military post at the top of Mount Aminum has only just opened to the public in recent years. Before it was open, people who ventured up there sometimes reported strange sightings of mysterious figures. Even in the nearby forests and parks that surround the city, the legends of the Dastardly Colony persist. However, most people do agree that Hicks Road is where they reside most often, and that's what draws many thrill-seekers out for late-night rides. Of course, the albino colony of Hicks Road is mere speculation and local lore. There are those who would like to see the legend finally die out. There are two groups of people who are particularly upset with the continuation of this myth. The first is people with albinism, understandably. Albinism is obviously not a supernatural occurrence and is actually a genetic disorder linked to serious health problems. There's already a stigma surrounding those with albinism and this legend of evil, cannibalistic, satanic albinos only furthers to reinforce that stigma. The other group of people bothered by the legend are those who live around Hicks Road. The stories have attracted daring teens out of the area at night to explore for decades. Sometimes trespassers leave messes and even damage property. Many residents have put up signs to keep visitors out. Up next, speaking of late-night spooks, headless horsemen legends are just that. Legends. Unless that is, you make your way to the Noasis River in South Texas. Plus, in 1970, two teenage girls were murdered at Denver's Lumber Baron Inn. Today, their killer is still unknown, but some guests say the victim's ghosts still roam the halls. These stories and more when Weird Darkness returns. Are you a member of the Darkness Syndicate? The Darkness Syndicate is a private membership where you receive commercial-free episodes of the Weird Darkness podcast and radio show. Behind the scenes video updates about future projects and events I'm working on. You can share your own opinions on ideas to help me decide upon Weird Darkness contests, events, and merchandise. You can download word search puzzles based on episodes of the podcast. You can hear audiobooks I'm narrating before even the publishers or authors get to hear them. You can also hear auditions I've submitted for other voiceover projects and get updates on the progress of those I've been cast in, such as my voice acting roles as Wolverine and J. Jonah Jameson in a couple of Marvel fan series or as Green Lantern, Hal Jordan in a DC fan project. You get all of these benefits and more, starting at only $5 per month. Join the Darkness Syndicate at WeirdDarkness.com Human kind has always been a superstitious lot. Tales of ghosts, monsters, witches, and other hates are universal and cross all cultural divides and borders. Especially terrifying are tales where the alleged specter in question met his or her end the most gruesome of ways — decapitation. Tales of ghosts cursed to search for their missing heads on this earthly plane abound. One such example of this particular mythos is the tale behind the ghost lights of Bragg Road in East Texas. Some who believe in such things claim the lights are tied to a long-dead conductor or railway worker who slipped under the train that used to run along the road and lost his head beneath the wheels of a tanker car or caboose. While all such stories are frightening, the terror seems to ratchet up a notch when the headless spirit is astride an equally ghostly horse. Images of Washington Irving's Ichabod Crane fleeing for his life from the headless horsemen of Sleepy Hollow are those most commonly dredged up from the minds of most when the topic is broached. But it is all in good fun. Such things are just campfire stories meant to thrill and delight the younger members of families. Headless riders are not real. Except when they are. In the mid-1800s, not long after the Mexican-American war wrapped up, settlers around the Noasis River and South Texas began to report sightings of a headless horseman roaming the countryside. Witnesses claimed the rider, dubbed El Muerto, carried his head, still wearing a sombrero tied to a horn on his saddle. About his shoulders, the rider wore a brushed torn saropee over a buckskin jacket. The legs of the apparition were covered by rawhide leggings of the kind worn by Mexican macarros. The horseman was always seen astride a black, mustang stallion so wild it seemed to have erupted onto the Texas plains straight from the mouth of hell. The rider was seen both day and night and there seemed to be no pattern to when and where he might appear next. The only constant was that he always rode alone and brought a paralyzing terror to any unlucky enough to lay eyes upon him. The Indians of the region who rarely agreed with the Anglo-settlers on much of anything, concurred that the rider was real and endeavored to keep their distance from him. Tribes on the hunt for bison or wild horses would range hundreds of miles out of their way to avoid entering the territory of the headless spirit. Maine Reed, stationed at Fort Inga on the Leonor River, wrote, No one denied that the thing had been seen. The only question was how to account for a spectacle so peculiar as to give the lie to all known laws of creation. Reed went on to list the many theories that had sprung up in an effort to explain the rider. An Indian dodge, a lay figure, a normal rider disguised with his head beneath a syrupy that shrouded his shoulders, and the possibility that the headless horseman was none other than Lucifer himself were the most common explanations branded about by settlers and soldiers in the region. One theory not expounded upon by Reed was that the rider was the patron or ghostly guard of the lost mine of the long abandoned Candelaria mission of the Noasis River. The debate raged on but the mystery as to the rider's identity remained. Finally, a group of settlers, tired of being afraid, managed to ambush the headless horseman at a watering hole near the present-day town of Alice. The rider seemed impervious to their firearms. One man in the posse said, Our bullets passed through him as easily as through a paper target. A change in tactics was in order and the settlers shifted their fire from the seemingly invulnerable rider to the black Mustang. The horse, it seemed, did not share the rider's ability to weather gunfire and was felled quickly. Upon inspection, the settlers found a desiccated human carcass, one riddled by bullet holes and arrows lashed to the back of the Mustang. The mystery was solved but it birthed another question, who was the headless rider? It was learned that some time later exactly how the headless horseman of the Noasis had come to be. The answer came from none other than legendary Texas Ranger Bigfoot Wallace himself. Years before, during the Texas Revolution, Texian militias laid siege to the city of San Antonio. On the night of December 4, 1835, a Mexican lieutenant named Vidal deserted, joined the Texians and provided them with valuable intelligence that helped to lead to the surrender of the city of General Coss. The Mexican military would later return and avenge their humiliation at the Battle of the Alamo. After the Texians won their independence from Mexico at the Battle of San Wasinto, Vidal took to stealing horses in order to make a living. He proved quite adept at this endeavor and became the head of several rings of horse thieves operating in south Texas. The Texians were slow to suspect Vidal, despite mounting evidence, due to his reputation as a Texas patriot. Vidal was able to further deflect suspicion by deftly planting evidence that suggested the Comanches, who often raided settlements and homesteads for horses, were the true culprits. Despite his best efforts, a couple of ranchers named Flores and Taylor began to suspect Vidal of the Thievery and struck out to follow the trail of the wrestlers. While camping on the Frio River, Flores and Taylor met up with Bigfoot Wallace, not one to tolerate a horse thief who decided to join the hunt. As they drew nearer to the stolen herd, the hunters came across cattle that had been shot with arrows. Vidal's trick to make greenhorns smell Indians, Taylor wrote. The three men did not fall for the ruse and pressed on, finally catching up to Vidal and his men near the Leona, only 12 miles from Fort Inga. To make a long story a bit shorter, the three men sneaked into the wrestlers camp and made short work of Vidal and his men that very night. The next morning, Wallace, always a bit on the eccentric side, made a fateful decision. He chose a black Mustang stallion from the recovered horses, one that had been heard broken but never saddled. Wallace roped the stallion, saddled him, and, after decapitating Vidal, lashed the horse thief's body securely to the Mustang. Wallace then laced Vidal's head, sombrero and all, to the horn of the saddle. The three men then stepped back to admire their work. Before them, the lifeless and headless body of the King of South Texas horse thieves sat bolt upright on the back of the stallion so wild that Satan himself could not ride him.  After the Mustang had pitched, bucked, snorted, squealed, pawed the air and reared up and fallen over backwards, it seemed to accept its fate and fled into the Texas wilderness away from its tormentors and into legend. It is often said that even the hardest to believe legends contain within them a grain of truth, such is the case with the tale of the headless horseman of Noasis. The witnesses were telling the truth. The rider was real. Perhaps it is a lesson we should recall when confronted with something that seems unbelievable today. Maybe we should pause before dismissing the outrageous claims of a witness who insists they saw a black panther, a wood ape or some other creature that is not supposed to exist. Maybe we can treat those witnesses with respect and dignity and help them get to the bottom of what they saw. Well, it is just a thought. Once, the Lumber Baron Inn was the home of its namesake, Lumber Baron Jean Moat. A lavish mansion he constructed for his wife and their five children, the building was equal parts home and showcase of Moat's work. But as often happens with old buildings, Moat's mansion eventually passed from the family's ownership and exchanged hands several times before it became little more than a deteriorating tenement building. By the mid-20th century, it was a skeleton of its former self, a sort of place where low stakes criminals, drug addicts and teenage runaways congregated together. In short, it was a place where people went when they had nowhere else to go. Unfortunately, these sorts of seedy locales often attract tragedy, and the Lumber Baron Inn was no exception.  When her 18-year-old friend walked in on the act, the man shot and killed her too. The perpetrator of the Lumber Baron Inn murders was never identified. The mansion eventually changed hands once more and underwent a complete restoration, but the tragedy of the Lumber Baron Inn murders still haunts it to this day, perhaps in more ways than one. In 1890, Scottish immigrant John Moat built a home for his family in Denver, Colorado. Moat had made a name for himself in the lumber industry and amassed a large fortune, eventually starting his own company, Moat Lumber. According to the website Legends of America, the Moat Lumber Company constructed more than 200 buildings in Denver between 1889 and 1892, helping the town grow from a humble mining camp to the city it is today. Moat wanted his home, however, to be the best. It wasn't just that it was a massive 8,500-square-foot mansion. Each room featured a different type of wood. Each fireplace was intricately carved. The dining room had carved rosettes, representing the trees used to make the guest rooms, and the guest rooms themselves featured private baths and phones. But the Moat children grew up, moved out, and started families of their own. Moat and his wife eventually moved out, too. He lived in California by 1906 in the mansion Transferred Ownership. Per the Fort Carson Mountaineer, the mansion changed hands several times over the decades, eventually being turned into a 23-unit tenement building. The building was run down, a stark contrast to the lavish showcase it had been in the past. Then in 1970, tragedy scarred the Lumber Baron Inn. In 1970, 16-year-old Runaway Carol E. Noche was living in a rented room at the tenement building known today as the Lumber Baron Inn. Noche dropped out of school and run away from home. But on October 11, she seemingly had a change of heart. She celebrated her 17th birthday at her parents' house and made a bold announcement. In four days' time, she would move out of her apartment and resume her high school education. She had already found a job, too. Two days later, she was found dead inside her apartment. That day, 18-year-old Mary Ann Weaver went to the Lumber Baron Inn to visit Noche and walked in at the worst possible moment. A man was in the apartment. He had already raped Noche and many reports claimed that Weaver arrived in time to witness him murder her, too. Caught in or just after the act, the man shot and killed Weaver. On October 13, 1970, Noche's body was found lying under the bed. She had been strangled to death. Weaver's body was on the floor with a gunshot wound. Over 50 years later, their murderer has still not been found. Within two decades, the City of Denver condemned the tenement building as it had fallen into almost complete and total disrepair. It is likely that would have been the end of the story had it not been for Walter and Julie Keller, who purchased the building in 1991 and began the long process of restoring and remodeling the mansion, ultimately turning it into the Lumber Baron Inn. Thankfully, no further tragedies have plagued the Lumber Baron Inn and it now operates as a successful bed and breakfast. But given its history, many guests and paranormal researchers have come forth with claims that the Lumber Baron Inn may in fact be haunted. With the Lumber Baron Inn fully restored and decorated with antique furniture and the neighborhood showing signs of improving, the Kellers converted the mansion's basement into a single, larger apartment and decided to move in themselves. Their work went beyond the interior as well. They replanted the gardens on the property around the building and added decor reflective of the 1890s Queen Anne style it originally flaunted. Soon enough, Lumber Baron Inn and gardens was open as a bed and breakfast, wedding venue and events space. But according to hauntedhouses.com, that's not all the Lumber Baron Inn has to offer. It is allegedly considered to be the most haunted place in Denver, with reports of six spirits who continue to stalk its halls. Naturally, two of the alleged ghosts that haunt the Lumber Baron Inn are the spirits of Cara Nosch and Marianne Weaver, who have reportedly been seen in the Inn's Valentine Room, on the stairs and in the hallway near their room. Guests have reported feeling cold spots and hearing strange noises from unknown sources. Walter Keller even reported similar experiences saying that while working to renovate the Inn, he felt his neck hairs stand on end after an unnaturally cold gust of wind blew by him. Beyond the spirits of Nosch and Weaver, though, guests and paranormal investigators have reported seeing a female apparition sometimes dressed as a flapper, the spirit of a maid, a male spirit believed to be a member of the Moat or Fowler family, and an older, authoritative male apparition who is often seen in common rooms smoking a pipe.  Multiple paranormal investigation teams have also visited Lumber Baron Inn, including the team from Spirit Paranormal and the cast of the TV show Ghost Detectives. Between two separate investigations, one in 2011 and the other in 2012, Spirit Paranormal claimed to have captured the full name of the person who murdered Nosch and Weaver, though they have not released that name publicly. Another unbelievable night at the Lumber Baron Inn last night, folks, they wrote on Facebook in October 2012, according to HauntedHouses.com. If I was not there to see this in person, I would not have believed it. For the second straight year, we received the same name of the killer from the unsolved 1970 double murder on the ITC Spirit Box device. It is unlikely this alleged evidence would be admissible in a court of law, of course, but the numerous investigations at the Lumber Baron Inn do attest to the one confirmed horror that looms over the otherwise quaint bed and breakfast in Denver, Colorado, the unsolved murders of Cara Nosch and Mary Ann Weaver. When Weird Darkness returns, unexplained murder cases are, sadly, a reality. But in most cases, you at least know who the victim is or who the murderer is. In the case of Princess Doe, however, there is no identity for the victim, no identity for the murderer, and there is no reason anyone has found for the brutal crime. But first, a man is well-liked and respected in his community, but then he acquires a love for alcohol. His personality changes, his family disappears, and suddenly his community sees him for what he truly is, a when to go. That story is up next. In 2019, six teenagers tried to rob a Chicago home and it ended with one dead shot by the homeowner. A Minnesota man is confronted by burglars at his home in 2012 and ends up being charged with murder for killing the intruders. In 2023, a man was killed after he broke into a home and the homeowner is charged with murder. As a listener to Weird Darkness, you know how bad things can go in a crime, and even when defending yourself against the criminals, sometimes you are the one facing legal problems. That's why you never let the criminals get access to your home to begin with. Home security is no longer recommended, it is essential, and with ADT, it's no longer for the elite, it's for everyone. Right now, you can get a free home security system from ADT to keep burglars from entering your home in the first place. Just visit WeirdDarkness.com slash ADT. That's WeirdDarkness.com slash ADT. ADT is the biggest and most trusted name in home security and has been since 1874, and they are still equipping people like you and me with the newest and best home security technology with 24x7 monitoring and 24x7 customer service. Whether your home is basic or ultra-smart, ADT is the best option for your home security, and again, you can get a free, custom-built home security system with the latest technology by visiting WeirdDarkness.com slash ADT. That's WeirdDarkness.com slash ADT. Swift Runner was a Kree hunter and trapper from the country north of Fort Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. His Kree name was Kakeesee Kuchen. He was a big man, tall and muscular. He traded with Hudson's Bay Company and in 1875 served as a guide for the northwest-bounded police. He was well-liked until he developed a taste for whiskey. When he was drunk, Swift Runner became nasty and violent. The police sent Swift Runner back to his tribe where he caused so much trouble he was eventually turned out of his community. In the winter of 1878-79, Swift Runner took his family, including his wife, six children, mother-in-law and brother, out into the wilderness to a hunting camp. Only Swift Runner returned in the spring. He said his wife had committed suicide and the others had died of starvation. Swift Runner appeared well-fed and in good shape. His anxious in-laws asked the police to investigate. The police traveled with Swift Runner to his family's camp in the wilderness north of Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta. Swift Runner brought a detachment of mounted police to the camp. He showed them the grave of his eldest son. The police opened the grave and found the bones undisturbed. There were human bones scattered around the encampment, some broken in half and hollowed out. That could only mean one thing. Someone had snapped them open and sucked out the marrow.  Swift Runner identified one of the skulls as belonging to his wife. A small moccasin had been stuffed inside the skull of Swift Runner's mother-in-law, a beading needle still sticking out of the unfinished work. Without much prodding, Swift Runner revealed what happened to his family. At first, Swift Runner became haunted by dreams. A Wendigo spirit called on him to consume the people around him. The spirit crept through his mind, gradually taking control. Finally, he became a Wendigo. The Wendigo killed and ate Swift Runner's wife and eventually cooked and ate the rest of his family. The police didn't believe Swift Runner resorted to cannibalism out of hunger. Emergency food supplies were close by at a Hudson's Bay Post just 25 miles away. Swift Runner believed that he had become a Wendigo. The police thought he was a killer cannibal. He may have been suffering from Wendigo psychosis, a psychiatric disorder associated with the Algonquin-speaking peoples, Cree, Wabanaki, Anishinaabe, and the northern Boral Forests along the U.S.-Canadian border. It manifests itself through compulsive attacks and a craving for human flesh. On May 27, 1879, the mounted police arrested Swift Runner and hauled him and the remains of his victims back to Fort Saskatchewan. His trial began on August 8, 1879. Swift Runner was tried for murder and cannibalism by a jury that included three English-speaking Cree half-breeds, four men well up in the Cree language, and a Cree man who translated the proceedings. Swift Runner sat calmly through the testimony of witnesses who described the family being in perfect health when they headed out to the woods, then Swift Runner coming out of the forest alone. Swift Runner confessed to the killings and said he had seen spirits telling him to become a Wendigo. After returning to his camp from a moose hunt, all that he could hear were young moose, nothing but moose.  Other people believed he had been possessed by the Wendigo. Swift Runner was sentenced to be hung at Fort Saskatchewan on December 20, 1879, at 7.30 am. He declined to speak to a priest before he was executed. The white man has ruined me, he said. I don't think their god would amount to much. The morning was dark and bitterly cold when the police led the condemned man to the scaffold. It was discovered that the trap from the gallows had been burned as kindling and the old pensioner that was hired as the hangman had forgotten to bring straps to bind the prisoner's arms. As the sheriff and hangman rushed around to get the scaffold ready again, Swift Runner sat near one of the fires that had been lighted nearby, joking and talking and snacking on Pemmican. I could kill myself with a tomahawk and save the hangman the trouble, he joked. Two hours later, the gallows was ready. Swift Runner was given the opportunity to address the crowd that had come to watch him die. He openly acknowledged his guilt, thanked his jailers for their kindness and berated his executioners for making him wait in the frigid cold. Just before the trap door opened, Swift Runner said, I am no longer a man. The Daily Evening Mercury newspaper reported, he died without a struggle, the body was cut down in an hour and buried in the snow outside the fort. Does the Wendigo exist or is it a myth? Is it an explanation for human behavior or part of the supernatural? A cultural warning about cannibalism or spiritual possession? Do they all blur together in the snowy mist we see just before Wendigo appears? The Wendigo, also known as Wendigo or Wendigo, is part of the traditional beliefs of a number of Algonquin-speaking tribes in the Northern United States and Canada, most notably the Anishinaabe or Ojibwe, Salto, Cree and Abenaki. Though descriptions can vary, common to all these tribes is the conception of the Wendigos as malevolent, cannibalistic, savage, supernatural beings of great spiritual and physical power. They were strongly associated with winter, snow, cold, famine and starvation. They lived in the forests and stalked villages and camps, waiting for humans to venture alone into the woods. People who did so and never returned were said to have been taken by a Wendigo, eaten alive or turned into a Wendigo themselves. Basil H. Johnson, a Canadian Anishinaabe author, teacher and linguist, described the Wendigo in his book, The Manitas, the Spiritual World of the Ojibwe, which I've linked to in the show notes. The Wendigo was a giant manateau in the form of a man or woman who towered five to eight times above the height of a tall man. The Wendigo was gaunt to the point of emaciation, its desiccated skin pulled totally over its bones, with its bones pushing out against its skin, its complexion, the ash gray of death, and its eyes pushed back deep into their sockets. The Wendigo looked like a gaunt skeleton recently disinterred from the grave. What lips it had were tattered and bloody from its constant chewing with jagged teeth. Unclean and suffering from separations of the flesh, the Wendigo gave off a strange and eerie odor of decay and decomposition of death and corruption. When the Wendigo set to attack a human being, a dark snow cloud would shroud its upper body from the waist up. The air would turn cold, so the trees crackled. Then a wind would rise, no more than a breath at first, but in moments, whining and deriving transformed into a blizzard. Behind the odor and shill of death and the killing blizzard came the Wendigo. The Wendigo seized its victim and tore him or her from limb to limb with its hands and teeth, eating the flesh and bones and drinking the blood while its victims screamed and struggled. The pain of others meant nothing to the Wendigo. All that mattered was its survival. The Wendigo gorged itself and glutted its belly as if it would never eat again. But a remarkable thing always occurred. As the Wendigo ate, it grew, and as it grew, so did its hunger, so that no matter how much it ate, its hunger always remained in proportion to its size. The Wendigo could never re-quit either its unnatural lust for human flesh or its unnatural appetite. It could never stop, as animals do when bloated, unable to ingest another morsel or sense as humans sense that enough is enough for the present. For the unfortunate Wendigo, the more it ate, the bigger it grew, and the bigger it grew, the more it wanted and needed. Wendigo sightings continue along our northern border with Canada. Walking alone in the woods in winter may not be a wise idea. Ancient gods and goddesses are rarely worshipped, but it doesn't mean that they have ceased to exist. We're just less aware of their supernatural presence. Some native people believe that the spirit and the ideas that the Wendigo embody live on in the modern world as executives in state-run corporations, multinationals and conglomerates, people who have an insatiable appetite to devour natural resources, no matter what the consequence is to communities and human victims. Cree songwriter-singer Buffy St. Marie's song The Priests of the Golden Bull asserts that money junkies of the world are Wendigos. Greed, indifference and ravenous consumption continue to kill a lot of people every year. There are many unsolved murders throughout history. Even in the contemporary age with the abundance of technologies, techniques and surveillance cameras all around, no less, some untoward deaths remain a mystery. However, the case of Princess Doe is an unsolved murder of an unknown victim for unknown reasons. Discovered in the summer of 1982, the identity of the brutally murdered teenage female remains uncertain. Even today, despite continued investigations and appeals into her death, the identity of the young woman or how she ended up in such dire circumstances is still an enigma. As you might imagine, there have been plenty of theories put forward over the three and a half decades since the body of the young girl was discovered on the edge of a New Jersey cemetery. And as we will examine, there is a good chance the perpetrator of this horrific killing is already behind bars. However, the lack of evidence means the case will likely remain unsolved for the foreseeable future, possibly forever. George Keis would make his way to work at the Cedar Ridge Cemetery in Blairstown, New Jersey as normal on the morning of July 15, 1982. However, shortly after arriving and going about his duties, his morning was about to become anything but normal. Towards the back of the cemetery, over a ridge that leads toward a shallow stretch of water was the body of a young girl. At least he thought it was a girl. The face was so badly beaten in, it was literally no longer there. In its place was just a pulp of mashed flesh and crumbled, fragmented bone. When local police arrived at the scene, they would discover the body of a young girl wrapped in a short-sleeved red shirt around the torso and a peasant-style skirt lying over the top of her legs, laying on her back.  Given the unknown amount of time the body might have laid there, however, this could not be ruled out entirely. Her body could have been there for several days. It could, though, have been there several weeks. Further examinations would reveal the estimated age of the young girl to be somewhere between 14 to 18 years of age. No drugs and only extremely faint traces of alcohol were discovered in her body, although, like the examinations for signs of sexual assault, the unknown time of death meant this too wasn't entirely conclusive. In her hair was a tangled gold necklace with a cross on it, likely a result of the obvious fight she put up against her attacker from the defensive injuries to her hands and arms. Even the eye color of Princess Doe remains unknown due to her extensive injuries. The cause of death was almost certainly the repeated and intense beating with an unknown blunt instrument to the head, the result of which had literally pulverized the young girl's face. One of the investigators on the case, Eric Kranz, would state to the media she was erased. Her assailant erased her. There was nothing left of her. Whoever did this did it with a vengeance. However, working out who her assailant was would be no easy task, not least because the identity of the victim or the wider circumstances surrounding her death were a complete mystery. Her fingerprints and dental records would bring no matches. They were able to determine she had never given birth, nor was she pregnant at the time of her death. She appeared to be a normal, healthy teenage girl. Just how she ended up in this most desperate and ultimately fatal situation was as mysterious as her identity. There were several theories and claims as to who she may have been, however. Initially, perhaps in desperation to solve the case, a missing teenager from the other side of the country in San Jose, California, Diane Janice Dye, was linked with the Princess Doe case. The aforementioned Kranz was an almost lone voice against several New Jersey investigators who were certain Diane Dye was Princess Doe. Incidentally, the Dye family always maintained their daughter was not the Princess Doe girl in New Jersey. They were also extremely and rightly critical of the New Jersey police department's handling of the case. Both the Dyes and Kranz would receive vindication in 2003 and DNA from Dye's mother eliminated her from the case for good. Five years before the official ruling out of Diane Dye as Princess Doe, in 1998, the wife of Arthur Kinlaw, a career criminal who ran prostitution rings among a wide range of crimes stretching back most of his adult life, was arrested for welfare fraud in California. Whether she was simply saving her own skin or had a sudden rush of honesty, Donna Kinlaw would claim her husband had murdered several women, including some of the prostitutes who had worked for him over the years.  He then dumped her body in the East River. Another of his apparent victims was an unnamed woman who rented a property from Arthur. She was a particularly large woman, so large, in fact, she was classed as obese and required crutches to walk. Arthur murdered her while she stood in the backyard before pouring cement over her body and making a patio area. Interestingly, bodies matching these murders would surface upon investigation. Furthermore, he would eventually receive prison sentences for them. Donna, meanwhile, would receive a lesser sentence for her indirect involvement after the fact. All of these were obviously of interest to the police. However, it was a victim that Donna couldn't name that was most intriguing to them. In the summer of 1982 in the Long Island area, Arthur had taken in a new girl and put her to work. She was around 18 years old and he would ultimately beat her to death in a cemetery in New Jersey. Might this unfortunate victim of the apparently extremely violent Arthur Kinlaw prove to be the elusive Princess Doe? Although the exact reasons as to why he chose to murder her in July 1982 remain a mystery themselves, Arthur, according to Donna, would mercilessly beat the teenager to death. If we accept Donna's version of events, he most likely used the same baseball bat he would use to murder Linda with two years later. However, despite Donna's information and Arthur's largely nonchalant, non-denying attitude, there was no evidence to conclusively prove they were telling the truth about the Princess Doe girl. And even if they were, it still didn't shine any light on who the tragic young woman once was, where she came from, and who if anyone might be wondering even today where their daughter, sister, or friend might be. Incidentally, neither of the Kinlaws have ever changed their claims. Neither, though, have ever faced charges for the death of the mysterious teenage girl discovered in the New Jersey Cemetery. In fact, nobody, as we shall see, would ever face charges regarding the unnerving and bone-chilling death of Princess Doe. Many suspects were profiled, some even interviewed, but no official arrests were ever made in what is perhaps one of the strangest murders of the latter half of 20th century American history. As technology improved, though, the case was continually revisited, and further details have come to light. For his part, Franz, who has worked on the case since day one, stated recently, there hasn't been a day, not a day, that has gone by where I don't work on this case.  Following extensive samples of the remains of her clothing and one of her teeth in 2012, several interesting details would emerge. For example, it would appear she was most likely born in the United States, possibly from the West near Arizona. She had at some stage in her short life spent a prolonged time of around a year in the Midwest or northeast part of America, and it spent most of her life in and around the Long Island area. These details would appear in newspapers across the country, including reconstructed pictures of the girl's clothing and how she would have appeared on the day of her death. One witness, a woman known as Latimer on the East Coast who was in the New Jersey area at the time of Princess Doe's death, would contact investigators. She claimed to have most definitely seen the young girl two days before her discovery on the 13th of July 1982. She would claim she and her young daughter were at the shopping center opposite the cemetery where the body came to light. Despite the three decades that had passed, she distinctly remembered the girl after seeing the clothing reconstruction. She would recall to the media that her daughter would state the peacock on the bottom of the skirt the victim donned was an eagle. She would even contemplate asking the girl where she got the skirt from. However, then something else would capture her attention and she thought nothing else of it. Until seeing the newspaper pictures. Investigators of the case would even have Latimer undergo hypnotic regression in the hope of unlocking memories she had simply forgotten. However, despite genuine attempts to do so, she knew no more than what she had already offered. There are literally hundreds of possible matches on the data board maintained on the official Princess Doe website. Identifying an absolute positive match will likely prove to be impossible. The identity of Princess Doe is perhaps to remain a mystery for eternity. In that respect, in a strange, ironic and most definitely sad type of way, she will live on for eternity. Forever depicted how she might have been perhaps a little different in each person's mind. The story of Princess Doe is tragic, of that there is no doubt. It is also a reminder of how precarious not only our existence is but even the memory of it. Not to mention the reasons why someone would cut short a life so brutally and needlessly. There is a general theory that the young girl was possibly a runaway, who perhaps after making her way east had turned to prostitution for the obvious tragic reasons. A decision that ultimately led her down the path to the person who would murder her. Or, while perhaps less likely but certainly not impossible, she was the victim of a kidnapping, possibly of a professional nature, when she was young and put into one of the many alleged prostitution rings. Perhaps she escaped from this potential environment only for her captors to find and then murder her. Maybe her escape led her to prostitution on the streets of the Long Island area, and ultimately the same sickening scenario highlighted in the first example. While we must remember the victims of such cases are all too real, so are the crimes themselves. For this reason alone, we should always continue looking at such cases, lest something previously missed suddenly shines through. Up next on Weird Darkness, with so many television shows, movies, documentaries, and genre artwork, you might think you know just about everything there is to know about the Wild West. But there are a few stories that are so strange, you might think they came right out of the mind of a fiction novelist. away by random drawing to someone subscribed to the Weird Darkness email newsletter. And before I close up the box for good, I might toss in a couple of Weird Darkness goodies as well for good measure. You can keep the Creepycrate for yourself or give it away to a weirdo friend or family member. To watch my latest Creepycrate unboxing video and to register to win a Creepy Crate of your own for free, visit WeirdDarkness.com slash Creepycrate. That's WeirdDarkness.com slash Creepycrate. An outlaw who escaped the gallows by visiting the outhouse? It might sound like a tall tale, but this and other Weird Wild West stories are true. Western movies get certain things wrong about the Old West and make some funny Wild West crimes sound like Hollywood inventions, but Wild Bill Hickok really did shoot a man for insulting his nose. Why was Jesse James called Dingus? How did Sitting Bull and Annie Oakley become friends? These odd Wild West facts make the West seem even wilder, or at least weirder. Before he became leader of the Apache, Geronimo didn't know how to use a rifle, so instead he used a daring method to go after his armed enemies. Mexican soldiers had massacred Geronimo's wife and children, so he vowed revenge on the soldiers. One night, Geronimo heard the mountain spirits tell him, you will never die in battle, nor by gun, I will guide your arrows. Later, in a fight against Mexican soldiers, Geronimo refused to rain arrows down on the armed soldiers from a safe distance. Instead, he rushed to the enemies, running in a zigzag pattern so they couldn't fire at him. When he got close enough, Geronimo went after the soldiers with a knife, took their rifles, and ran back to his fellow Apache. The pattern repeated so many times that Mexican soldiers started yelling Geronimo when the Apache charged at them. I still have no idea though why skydivers would yell the name when jumping out of planes. Even in the wild west, there were celebrities and celebrity autographs. Chief Sitting Bull was the leader of the Lakota who helped defeat General George Custer at Little Bighorn, but even Sitting Bull was impressed with Annie Oakley's shooting. In 1884, Sitting Bull watched Oakley perform in Minnesota. After seeing the show, the chief sent $65 to Oakley's hotel room, hoping for a signed autograph from the sharpshooter. But Oakley rejected the offer. Instead, she asked Sitting Bull to meet with her. Oakley later recalled, The old man was so pleased with me, he insisted upon adopting me, and I was then in there christened Watanya Cecilia, or Little Shure Shot. Later, Sitting Bull and Annie Oakley got to know each other better as part of Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West show. He is a dear, faithful old friend, and I have great respect and affection for him, Oakley wrote. You know, they say you never want to meet your heroes, but it appears in this case, Sitting Bull became best friends with one of his. What's your poison? Ever wondered where that phrase came from when being asked what you want to drink? Cowboys, prosecutors and minors weren't too picky about their alcoholic beverages. At one saloon in Sierra Nevada, they sold tarantula juice, which contained strychnine, and strychnine wasn't the only harmful ingredient in the drink. Tarantula juice also contained wood grain alcohol distilled from turpentine. What happened to men who ordered tarantula juice? Strychnine gave them a burst of energy, similar to the body's response to methamphetamine. But as drinkers processed the concoction, their skin would begin to crawl as though tarantulas were running up and down their arms. That sensation was often followed by muscle spasms and lockjaw. Why anyone would order at a second time is the truly weird fact in this one. Smallpox was a serious disease in the Old West, but one Wild West legend survived Smallpox and used her immunity to the disease to care for others. As a child, Calamity Jane came down with Smallpox and barely survived. Years later, an outbreak struck Deadwood. Although she had no training as a nurse, Calamity Jane took care of eight sick minors. An eyewitness even declared Jane was a perfect angel sent from heaven when any of the boys was sick. And Deadwood wasn't the best place to catch Smallpox. Sick people were quarantined in tents without access to running water.  She even pulled a gun to make sure the men had groceries and water. Five of Jane's eight patients survived, and the town's doctors declared that without Calamity Jane's nursing, all eight men would have perished, which would have been a calamity. Okay, I added that last part myself. Nowadays, it's somewhat of a joke that people watch NASCAR races just for the wrecks. But the concept isn't new. Crashing stuff has always been fun to watch. In the 1890s, William Crush had an idea. Yes, Crush was his real name. He worked for a railroad and wanted to entertain people by driving two locomotives into each other. In the pop-up town of Crush, Texas on September 15, 1896, his plan became a reality when 40,000 spectators flooded the area, temporarily making it the state's second biggest city. The Galveston Daily News reported, men, women and children, lawyers, doctors, merchants, farmers, artisans, clerks representing every class in every greatest society were scattered around over the hillsides or clustered around the lunch stands, discussing with eager anticipation the exciting event that they had come so far to see. The trains started just after 5 p.m. The conductors started both trains before leaving to safety. The engines rushed toward each other, traveling at 50 mph, and then they slammed into each other. A sound of timbers rent and torn, and then a shower of splinters reported one witness. There was just a swift instant of silence, and then, as if controlled by a single impulse, both boilers exploded simultaneously and the air was filled with flying missiles of iron and steel, varying in size from a postage stamp to half a driving wheel, falling indiscriminately on the just and unjust, the rich and the poor, the great and the small. Two people perished, and many other spectators were hurt as detritus flew from the collision. A photographer who snapped pictures even lost an eye. As for the event's organizer, the railroad company fired him. But as publicity poured in from the event, which made headlines around the world, the company rehired him. I guess you could say he crushed it. Buffalo Bill Cody made the Wild West into a show. At the 1887, Buffalo Bill took the Wild West on tour, traveling all the way to London to perform at Queen Victoria's Jubilee. He brought along more than 200 people, plus 180 horses, 18 buffalo, 10 elk, 5 Texas steers, 4 donkeys and 2 deer, and a partridge in a pear tree, I assume. Once in Great Britain, the show nearly caused a diplomatic incident when Annie Oakley reached out to shake hands with the Prince of Wales. But the future King Edward VII was so charmed by the show that he encouraged Queen Victoria to come in person to see it. Crowds of 30,000 came to the performances, eager to see the Wild West up close. Buffalo Bill Cody was a forward-thinking showman. When asked whether he supported voting rights for women, Cody said, set that down in great big black type. The Buffalo Bill favors woman's suffrage, adding, these fellows who prayed about the women taking their places make me laugh. If a woman can do the same work that a man can do and do it just as well, she should have the same pay. That again, if you have Annie Oakley working for you, that's probably the healthy opinion to have anyway, whether you believe it or not. Billy the Kid was wanted in 1881 for shooting a sheriff in Nebraska and another man in a New Mexico saloon. Running from a $500 bounty on his head, Billy was eventually trapped and put on trial. The trial didn't go Billy's way. The judge found Billy guilty, saying the outlaw would hang until he was dead, dead, dead.  His date with the gallows to set, Billy the Kid pulled off a daring escape. On April 28, 1881, he asked the deputy guarding his jail cell to take him to the outhouse. Once free from the cell, the outlaw pulled off his handcuffs, took the deputy's firearm and did away with the deputy. Knowing the sheriff would be after him, Billy hid on the roof of the courthouse. When the sheriff ran up, Billy yelled, look up, old boy, and see what you get, then he fired on the sheriff. His escape nearly complete, Billy the Kid took a horse and hit the road. Hmm, I wonder if that's where that term I gotta see a man about a horse came from. In 1855, the U.S. Army decided to import camels to Texas. The wide open spaces of the west were well suited for camels, so the government bought 75 camels from the Middle East. The camels worked at Kemp Verde, where they made supply runs to San Antonio. But a few years later, the civil war disrupted the camel's service when a government official decided to auction off the animals. The new owner sent some camels to Nevada and California. Other camels were simply set free. At first, camel sightings were rare, but in the 1880s, Arizona Territory faced a terrible menace known as the Red Ghost. The Red Ghost trampled one woman, another story claimed the monster in a grizzly bear. When miners spotted the Red Ghost and fired at it, a human skull fell from the creature's back. After years of terrorizing Arizona, the Red Ghost was finally taken out. The menace was actually a feral camel. Camel sightings in the west continued into the 20th century.  The legend of Wild Bill Hickock started in 1861. That year, Hickock worked for the Pony Express in Nebraska. During a conversation with a customer, Hickock fired at the man. It was the famous lawman's first slaying. What drove Hickock? The customer called Hickock Duck Bill, a taunt about Hickock's pointy nose. The shooting claimed the lives of three men and put Hickock on trial, but the court acquitted Hickock, who went on to fight another day. According to other stories about the Old West legend, Hickock wrestled a bear and fired at the center of the letter O on a poster from 50 yards away six times in a row. With a reputation like that, few men wanted to get into a confrontation with Wild Bill Hickock. Speaking of calling people names, everyone feared Jesse James, the man who raided trains, stagecoaches, and banks. According to a popular song, James was bold and bad and brave. But James had an unusual nickname, Dingus. The nickname came from the outlaw's teenage years. In June 1864, James swiped a saddle from a farmer who fired at him.  Oh, ding it, ding it, how it hurts, James hollered. His family gave Jesse the nickname Dingus in response. A terrible nickname, but hey, what are you going to do? It's family. Seth Bullock and Al Swearingen weren't just enemies on the HBO show Deadwood. They were both real people in the gold mining town. Seth Bullock lived in Canada, Michigan and Montana before moving to Deadwood. The former lawman set up a hardware store in the boom town, welcoming new customers with an auction on chamber pots. For two decades, Bullock tried to maintain order in the city. Al Swearingen was also a real person and a twin. Swearingen moved to Deadwood in 1876 to set up a dance hall called the Gem Variety Theater. Spectators piled into the saloon to watch fights. The Gem brought in as much as $10,000 a night, a fortune in the late 19th century. But did the real Bullock and Swearingen clash? In reality, the two divided the town down Main Street. People on Swearingen's side, known as the Badlands, left the rest of the town alone. And for your information, despite his name, Swearingen, he didn't swear nearly as much as HBO's Deadwood would have you believe. Because nobody swears that much, except for Hollywood writers. Dr. McKiella Quinn, aka Dr. Quinn, medicine woman, might be fictional, but women doctors cared for patients across the Western frontier. With doctors in high demand, women were able to break into the competitive medical field in the Old West. Bethenia Owens Adair, for example, attended medical school in Michigan in the 1870s before moving to Oregon, where she hiked overgrown trails and waded through floods to reach patients. Mary Purveen also moved west to work as a doctor. After growing up in New England, where a woman doctor cared for her mother's broken arm, Purveen enrolled in medical school at Willamette University. When she braved a snowstorm at a flooded river to deliver a baby, the parents named the child after Purveen. The baby was cross-eyed and had a mean disposition, Purveen recalled, and she wasn't paid for until after I was married, when we had installments consisting of a bushel of tomatoes weekly. No wonder I don't care for sliced tomatoes. Thanks for listening. If you like the show, please share it with someone you know who loves the paranormal or strange stories, true crime, monsters or unsolved mysteries like you do. You can email me anytime with your questions or comments at Darren at WeirdDarkness.com. Darren is D-A-R-R-E-N. WeirdDarkness.com is also where you can find all of my social media, listen to free audiobooks I've narrated, visit the store for Weird Darkness t-shirts, hoodies, mugs, phone cases and more merchandise. Sign up for monthly contests, find other podcasts that I host like Retro Radio, Old Time Radio in the Dark, Micro Terrorist, Scary Stories for Kids, The Church of the Undead and more. WeirdDarkness.com is also where you can find the Hope in the Darkness page if you or someone you know is struggling with depression or dark thoughts. Also on the website, if you have a true paranormal or creepy tale to tell, you can click on Tell Your Story. You can find all of that and more at WeirdDarkness.com. All stories in Weird Darkness are purported to be true unless stated otherwise and you can find source links or links to the authors in the show notes. The Hicks Road Horror was written by Laura Allen for Ranker and from Backpack Reverse. Murder at the London Baron Inn was written by Austin Harvey for All That's Interesting. A Wendigo named Swift Runner was written by Karen Doherty for Green Canticle. The Unexplained Princess Doe Case was written by Marcus Louth at UFO Insight. The Wild Weird West is by Genevieve Carleton for Weird History. And the Headless Horseman of Noasis is from Texas Cryptid Hunter. Weird Darkness is a registered trademark. Copyright Weird Darkness. Now that we're coming out of the dark, I'll leave you with a little light. First John 4, Verse 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from God because many false prophets have gone out into the world. And a final thought, thank God for your life tonight, for your health, your family, or your home. Many people don't have these things. I'm Darren Marlar. Thanks for joining me in the Weird Darkness. Is that it's related to a Swedish community based at the entrance of Uvus Canyon Park? Uvus? Uvus? Uvus Canyon? Uvus? Uvus? Uvus? Uvus? Uvus? Uvus? Uvus? Uvus? Uvace? Uvace? Uvace Canyon? No, that can't be right. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna guess Uvus. Let's see if I'm right. Uvus? Uvace? That was right. Uvus? Uvus? Well, I was saying Uvus. It's Uvus. Dang, I was close. An abandoned military post at the top of Mount Umenhum. Umenhum? Umenhum? Umenhum? Umenhum? What kind of a name is Umenhum? Umenhum? Umenhum? Holy cow. Umenhum? What the? U-M-U-N-U-H-U-M-H-U-M. Holy cow. People. You can change the name of things. You know that, right? Umenhum. Okay. Umenhum. That's what it is. Umenhum. Sounds like something you'd say right after a really good meal. Umenhum. That was good. Associated with the Algonquin-speaking peoples, Cree, Wabanaki, Anishieba, Wabanaki, Anishinaabe in the Northern Borel Forest, Point of Emaciation. It's desec- emaciation. It's desec- desecated of emaciation. Mexican soldiers had- Mexican soldiers had massacred. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Umenhum. Hey, Weirdos. Our August Weirdo Watch Party is Saturday, August 5th, with a movie presented by a perfectly-named horror host show, The Weirdness Really Bad Movie with Dave Binkley. Dave will be presenting 1962's Dreck of a Film, The Magic Sword starring Basil Rathbone and trust me, Rathbone is the only good part about this movie. The Son of a Sorceress, armed with weapons and armor, assisted by six magically summoned knights, embarks on a quest to save a princess from a vengeful wizard. That's right, it's not just an awful movie, it's an awful historically incorrect period-piece movie.  You'll see the cone heads from Saturday Night Live. Well, they look that way, at least. You've got dated special effects, terrible acting, and costumes that look like they were ripped right out of a Monty Python skit. The Weirdo Watch Party is always free to watch online with all of us, so grab your popcorn, candy and soda, and jump into the fun, and even get involved in the live chat as we watch the movie. It's The Magic Sword presented by The Weirdness Really Bad Movie Show Saturday August 5th, starting at 10pm Eastern, 9pm Central, 8pm Mountain, 7pm Pacific. See a trailer for the film and invite your friends to watch along with you on the Weirdo Watch Party page at WeirdDarkness.com. We'll see you on Saturday August 5th for The Weirdo Watch Party! When Salem Roanoke took a job near his family's new home as a hired hand in the Texas Hill Country, he anticipated learning the rancher's trade, but a series of strange events, shocking murders, and unholy revelations divert him down another path. This terrifying trajectory puts him directly into the middle of a struggle between monsters, magic, and men, armed and backed by a militia of ranchers. Salem attempts to combat the creeping tide of evil that threatens to engulf his new home and destroy the people most important to him. Will Salem manage to save his home or have his actions condemn everyone he hopes to save? The Witch Trials A Summer of Wolves and Season of the Witch by SR Roanoke. Available in paperback, Kindle, and audiobook versions, look for The Witch Trials by SR Roanoke on Amazon or find it on the audiobooks page at WeirdDarkness.com. That's WeirdDarkness.com slash audiobooks. Find it at WeirdDarkness.com slash listen.


From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Stu Miniman. Hi everybody, welcome to this special presentation, The Evolving Role of the Data Scientist. Earlier this decade, Hal Varian, the chief economist at Google, sort of dubbed the data scientist as the rock star role, the rock star job of the next decade and it seems to be actually coming true. I'm here with Stu Miniman, my long time and often co-host and our newest member of the Wikibon team, Jim Kobielus. Jim, it's great to see you. Let's start there. Let's introduce you to the team. Those of you who don't know, Jim, former forester, even before that network world, our days at IDG, just coming to us from IBM, big data, AI, cognitive, welcome. Tell us a little bit about your background. My background, while you've summarized the most recent, I was at IBM for five years. I was their data science evangelist. Prior to that, I have a long lineage in the analyst space. I was at Forester, I was all things big data and data warehousing, business intelligence. I had been at current analysis, Burton Group. You mentioned network world for a long, long time. I wrote a column for network role as a freelance thing starting in the late 80s. I'm sort of revealing my age here. I don't wanna go too far down the road there but I've been around the block in the industry for a long time with a lot of different focus areas and at Wikibon, my core focus is all things app dev and deep learning and AI and data science which very much traces a sort of a path of a continuity from what I looked at under IBM and previously. And you know, John Furrier in 2010 in theCUBE said, the data is the new development kit in the time. I sort of really didn't understand that but it's becoming true.  Is it ops dev? But the role of development and operations coming together, infrastructure is code. We're going to talk about that a little bit but give us your quick take on what's going on. Yeah, Dave. So, you know, Wikibon started with a strong focus on storage and we've seen in the storage world it's not about storing the information. It's about how do we leverage that data and in my background in the networking side you're talking about how, you know, the analytics and real time components and understanding what's moving in pieces.  So, you know, we've watched at Wikibon, Dave, that kind of launch of big data. A lot of that goes into now, the machine learning and AI space that Jim knows well. That evolving era of, you know, data is at the core of everything and that has such a huge impact on, you know, all the pillars that we cover in Wikibon, especially, you know, the stuff I work on infrastructure in cloud, data is always at the core and center in the applications. Jim, talk about how this data role is developing. Obviously, the data scientist, there's even the chief data officer, we can maybe address that, but let's get closer to the application developer. What's the sort of spectrum of development and what's the process look like? Well, yeah, if you look at the eras of computing and you can sort of trace the evolution of computing by where does the logic, the application logic, and who develops that application logic and maintains it. If you look at the very beginning of computing starting from Babbage or beyond, you know, it was hardware. Clearly, it was electromechanical calculators and tabulating devices and so forth. Around the time of the Second World War, we started to have stored program control computers. We had Turing and Bob Neumann and those architectures. And a new cadre of professionals called programmers, another called coders, developed to specify the application logic between COBOL and 4G, you know, L, and so forth. Different languages. Starting around the turn of this millennium, or really the turn of this decade, we started to see a third era develop beyond the hardware era and the software era of application logic, towards what you might call the, well what has been called the cognitive era where the application logic doesn't, there's less and less need for it to be explicitly programmed but actually it's learned from the data. How is it, how is the logic learned from the data through the magic of data science? Statistical algorithms, machine learning to identify predictive variables, to drive things like recommendation engines and next best action and predictive, you know, applications and so forth. So data increasingly is the core engine as it were that's driving the development of the logic that's in line to so many applications now in the era of artificial intelligence. So data scientists are key developers in this new era. Okay, so you've got the data scientists but then there's this whole sort of spectrum of people who touch data. There's the data quality engineer, I guess the data engineer which may or may not be different. Even the application developer, you have so-called citizen developers or low code developers. So is this one person, multiple people? Is it arms and legs? Is it one person? Is it a unicorn? I don't think there are that many people who are so all capable jacks of all trades and good at all of them that could do every single thing you sketched out but there's a lot of smart people in the universe so I'm not gonna diss the unicorns that actually are there. But in fact what we see in development organizations now is clearly a specialization in terms of the data era, the data science era. There are data scientists proper, I'll use that term who build and train and test statistical models against empirical data. They're the ones who build regression models and they're the ones who build all the other algorithmic logic that goes into these applications. There are data engineers, they're the ones who will build the data lakes so that Jan Hadoop or NoSQL and so forth that are used by teams of data scientists to build and test their regression and classification and natural language processing and machine learning and the other models. There's a strong and continuing demand for coders, for programmers to build the business rules and more of the deterministic or declarative and procedural logic, if that else statements and so forth that you need for a fully-fledged application. But there's other specialties as well. You need subject matter experts in many, most data science projects. They're the ones who understand these solution domain that you're building these models and applications around whether it be marketing or security or autonomous vehicles and whatnot. You need experts to work with the data scientists to build the feature sets and so forth. There's other specialties that are critically important. Data visualization design, user interface design UX, hardware engineering, more and more of like machine learning and deep learning algorithmic models are going into the edge applications that are residing on IOT endpoints to drive various automated actions and so forth based on fresh data and algorithms that are embedded in those components. What I'm getting at is that the development ecosystem of different roles continues to expand. There's a lot of strong need for coding but data scientists, the core statistical modelers and explorers absolutely essential in more and more disruptive applications, cognitive chat bots and face recognition and voice recognition, things like Siri, we're all using, I use all the time. I write most of my text now using Siri on my iPhone because it's gotten scary good at speech recognition. So everybody talks about the shortage of skill sets. How problematic is that in terms of growth and Stu, we talk about the ops dev, are they going to come from the operations world? Let's specifically focus on the enterprise. Are you seeing like the guys you saw at DockerCon? Are they moving into the data science realm and the data engineering realm? Are they more sort of doing DevOps type of work? Yeah, I think on the infrastructure side, it tends to be more of the DevOps type of folks. Definitely kind of the coding piece gets into a lot of environments but you don't see somebody that was like, okay, running around data centers, pulling cabling, tomorrow we come in a data scientist. Remind me, Dave, of you and I did two years ago with the MIT Sloan folks, the second machine age era, talking about how has the first industrial revolution kind of replaced what we can do with muscle? We can bring machines in the second machine age is what's going to either replace or greatly augment what we can do from a cognitive standpoint. So that's going to have a huge impact on jobs. It's interesting, I look like Amazon's a huge hireer. I think the number I heard is they're going to have 100,000 jobs in the next 18 months that Amazon's going to hire. Right now there's over 5,000 jobs open for the Amazon web services and a lot of them are using data, leveraging data. Every new company that I see in job description I see is right, how much is data part of what you're doing? It's something from research standpoint, while we say, well, without data you're just some guy with another opinion, right? So data is just so infused in everything we talk about and how much will machines help us to grapple because we know the four V's of data out there, I can't as anyone, there's the unicorns out there that can read the matrix of flying information everywhere but there's so much information coming in. We need the tools and the people going together, dramatic impact on what's going to happen and right, we said if your job, if you were a storage person configuring lines or networking person, cabling things, your job's changing and how do you get on board this wave and race with the machines not fight against it? Well, you brought up the second machine age. We did that event with Bryn Yolson and Andy McAfee from MIT and Jim, you mentioned the cognitive era, it's kind of an IBM term but one of the criticisms I've always had of IBM is that if you look at, humans have always been replaced by machines but first time in human history it's increasingly been being cognitive function. Yeah, knowledge work. Knowledge work and IBM was shy away and other vendors as well, oh, we don't want to talk about replacing humans but in fact that's what's happening. That's happening. I mean, you can argue very strongly that the middle class is kind of getting hollowed out, the media, the data supports it. The media and income really has been flat or down actually and one could argue that it's due to cognitive functions, machines replacing humans, you might want to debate that. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that now that you're outside of IBM. But so, isn't it the data professional that is ultimately going to be allowing combinations of innovation to occur and new jobs to be created? Now whether or not they can be created fast enough to offset the decline in existing is, we'll see, but what's your take on it? That's structural unemployment, clearly. There's displacements in any turbulent and innovative industry. Old industries die, sometimes they die quickly before the new ones are fully born, understood. So, no, I'm not going to downplay the potential, the actuality of structural unemployment right now as whole industries get hollowed out and new ones get created and data and algorithms and AI and so forth are a major player in the realignment of all industries understood. So, in terms of where the jobs are coming from, you could say that everybody on some level will need to be a data scientist but that's sort of overstating it. Everybody needs to get really savvy on data and on the underlying, really the enabler for delivering value from data, which is machine learning, machine learning models, more of those are being built into applications everywhere and delivering new value. Now, there is a growing range of more, I would call them closer to self-service tools that allow the rest of us, by which I mean business analysts and subject matter activists to build more machine learning models and predictive logic on our own without needing a PhD data scientist to help us every step of the way. That niche of tools from any number of companies including the one that you mentioned just a moment ago are coming along, but I wouldn't say that the notion of a citizen data scientist, that's a term that's got parlance. I wouldn't say that this is necessarily a space that's dominated or will be dominated by the do-it-yourselfers, but there is a growing range of people, especially millennials who've taught themselves data science from the get-go and it become fairly effective at building and training and iterating machine learning and predictive analytics and so forth from open source tools like Spark and R and now TensorFlow, for example, for AI and who built their own data lakes on top of Hadoop and so forth have been able to build really great data-driven applications, machine learning and so forth from open data sets of which there are more coming along every day are able to assemble data science and developer teams from open communities like Kaggle, which by the way, Google I believe recently acquired. So there's more open resources to allow the motivated professionals who want to get deeper into data science and app dev in a data science world to do their magic and to do it without the traditional university degree or really without the traditional background and doing this work in the corporate world. That's coming along, so to do it yourself is there are a growing number of them out there but I'm not going to overstate that trend. There's a serious learning curve to get really competent in data science.  But certainly there's a low code. I've been flamed by the way by many of them when I brought them up in a variety of industry forums and spoke about it. Well, that panel that you and I did, I mean it was with the 10 rock star data scientists when that term came up it was, you know they just poo-pooed it totally. In my prior life.  But don't you think that it's really the survival of the physics? I mean you're admitting that yes there's going to be disruption in vocations. Isn't it the survival of the physics? This is why I get sometimes concerned about some of the public comments from President Trump about just sort of protectionism. I feel as though not to get political here but hey, learn, get educated if we have to fund education fine. But it's really the message to young people is you got to go out and find those new opportunities and learn how to use data. Do you guys agree with that or? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, didn't we see this with cloud? All the infrastructure guys who wanted to just provision lungs for the rest of their lives? Dave, I think about when we talk about cloud a lot of it is, you know, how do we shift things to a platform or a vendor? And a lot of it data has gravity and is going to live in some of these platforms. You know, the joke we always have is don't you think that, you know, the NSA, Google and Amazon know everything you're doing it's not just because I have an Alexa and Google home in my house and they're listening all the time but you know, they are gathering information. You know, both of those, you know, Google and Amazon both getting in the autonomous car visa. Amazon just announced that. So where the data lives? Boy, you know, Pete, we talked about the disruption that Uber's going to have just because, you know, it went from kind of a full-time job of a taxi driver to a part-time driver of Uber. Well, we know the real disruption is going to be when we just have fleets of self-driving cars and then nobody needs to drive anymore, so. Okay, so that brings me another question I have for you, Jim. The data scientist is building the data model and the data is informing that model and every cloud vendor says, oh, the data is yours. But if the data is informing the model and the model is being applied in different industries and different use cases, how is my data, my IP, not feeding my competitors? Well, if they don't have access directly to your data they can't use your data to train their models. So if you've got the best pool of data for a particular domain, whatever, you know, autonomous vehicles or whatever happens to be, that first mover advantage into that space, with that data, the data itself, is an asset that your competitors don't have direct access to. So they can build models but their data might not be as good or as fresh or as valid as yours. So their models will be less predictably fit to the application, the common application domain you're both targeting. So keep in mind that the first mover is like, like I say, like Uber, whatever, who has achieved a scale first in a given space, they got that massive data set, the Googles of the world, the Facebooks. That is actually a barrier to entry for their competitors. You can't match a Google on, you know, YouTube, for example, videos, it's got YouTube. That was a great acquisition for them. Well, there's been a lot discussed about first mover advantage in the merits or not of first mover advantage. And you go back to the PC examples, so many examples of PC days, I mean, the PC era of first movers who actually, you know, went out of business, but is the first mover advantage because of data becoming more important? Now granted, Facebook wasn't the first mover, it was a Friendster or MySpace, but Facebook now has a data advantage. Were they the first data advantages, maybe a better way to put it, is that notion of first mover, if data is the lever, going to sort of come back and vogue? Yeah, and if I can build off that, you know, we talked about Dave, kind of the customer innovation flywheel that's driven a lot of last generation, is data the next driver of the flywheel? Well, so Amazon, with Cloud, obviously has a first mover advantage. Now Google wasn't the first in search, but they were the first to actually do search in a sort of data driven approach as opposed to a portal, you know, as a destination. And so Uber is another really good example. You're actually seeing some examples of first movers, now whether or not it's sustainable, we'll see, but at the heart of it is data, right? Well, for example, Tesla has gone furthest to getting self-driving capabilities to a degree into commercial vehicles that are out on roads, and so they've got this growing pile of great data that is their proprietary asset for their team of data scientists to continue to tune and build and add additional self-driving features to their products. So in other words, that's an example of a clear first mover advantage that, you know, they squander at their peril, going into that hot potential huge area. I mean, they've already, don't they have a larger market capitalization now than GM, which kind of blows my mind? Yeah, I think they surpassed GM, yes. Kind of blows my mind. So they're Apple, but for vehicles. Right, right. Okay, I want to sort of change subjects a little bit. You guys were just at DocaCon. We love the developer angle. You're going to be focused very largely on developers, obviously within AI and that data space. But Stu, you've got OpenStack Summit coming up. We've got Red Hat Summit next week. Obviously, we are reinvent. There's a huge developer show. ServiceNow, an event that I'm going to be at is actually talking about low-code developers has quite a low-code developer community. Another one is DevNet Create. Cisco, right? Is DevNet Create, it's an inaugural event coming up May 23rd and 24th. Cisco's angle on development.  Some of the things that we touched on earlier, Stu. What's the big trend there? Cisco's had a strong IoT angle for a long time. We know, I mean, the network's all about the data that's in it, and therefore, how can I instrument things better? How can I understand what's going on? There's so much real-time data. Jim, you've probably, real-time, we talked about it, it was buzzy for a few years, but there's now real-time where that real-time feedback is actually useful, not just gathering or looking at historical information, but Cisco's at the center of it. As we get orders of magnitude more surface area from things like IoT, there's still the network implications of a lot of that at its core. Is network's background, but is Cisco's background? But Cisco has lots of software assets. They're a very large company with a lot of different pieces and definitely have been courting the developer group for years. And they had this theme about the Cisco they're putting out under DevNet, where apps meet infrastructure. Yeah, right, right. And so they're very much catalyzing a community of app developers around, you know, really billing on fog computing is another term that they put out there, which is a good one to describe the new generation, the new era of big data that's entirely edge-oriented. So Cisco, as an app dev, as a provider of an app dev platform is a, something you have to get your head around, because you, you know, I'm one of the old school who thinks of them as routers and bridges and hubs and all that, but that was way long ago. They're higher up the stack. And actually, like I fought against that fog designation when it first came out like two years ago, but we've seen the discussion was data center to cloud and now cloud to edge. And so therefore, if we're talking about cloud coming down to the edge, okay, fog's an okay analogy we understand there. Cisco sometimes is a little bit early with some of their, you know, positioning out there, but I think we're starting to catch up with the reality of where it is. And Google recently related to edge applications in terms of app dev. Big part of the app dev process for data-driven applications is training those algorithms with fresh data to ensure that they are predictably fit for their purposes. Cisco, not Cisco, Google recently came out with a very interesting capability which is training of algorithms that are deployed at edge devices using a federated infrastructure. I did a blog last week or, I think it was last week or the week before on the Wikibon blog about federated training of data applications and where Google's going. But that gives you a sense for the new generation of app dev and dev ops, which is that more of the training, training is basically maintenance. It's a maintenance activity. Become absolutely essential for all manner of applications from fresh data. That'll be sourced from the fog and then be pushed to algorithms that are being iterated and updated in real time out at, you know, mirrored zillions of edge devices. We have to get our heads around the fact that the data center is being radically decentralized. At a certain point data center, the term itself will be so archaic. We just have to retire it. Well, it's all server farms. Right, plug into the API and there you go. We live in that API economy. All right, we got to leave it there. Guys, thanks very much for coming on and chatting about that evolving role. If you care about the changing role of the data professional, follow Jim at James Kabilis, at James Kabilis, i.e. LUS on Twitter. And go to wikibon.com and follow him there. He's a writing prolific writer. Great to have you on board. Thanks for participating. All right, thanks for watching everybody. We'll see you next time. This is Cube, we're out.


Namaste. I am Dr. A. Sharda here. Namaste. I am Dr. Priya Chinappa. We are both from the Department of Endocrinology and Diabetes from Manipal Hospital, Millers Road. Now, what about this heart failure? Because in heart failure also there is a lot of breathlessness and water retention, puffiness of a swelling of legs, etc. In patients who have diabetes and heart failure, any particular medications would you use? Yes, actually this heart failure is a very important complication of diabetes and I think it's often unrecognized and it's the most frequent reason for ER visits, this heart failure and breathlessness. Now, some of the medications that we discussed, the STLT2 inhibitors, really help patients with heart failure. These drugs, the way they work, they bypass the pancreas and the liver but they act on the kidney and they decrease the glucose reabsorption. So, glucose is excreted and along with that water. So, the water retention and everything actually comes down. So, these drugs are even indicated for heart failure and it is found to reduce the readmission rate of heart failure patients. That is very interesting. So, can these drugs be used in patients who have heart failure without diabetes? That's an excellent question and yes, because earlier we used to use these drugs only for diabetic patients but they have, they are indicated in patients with heart failure without diabetes because it helps in reducing the volume overload. You know, now that we've spoken about heart failure, some of these patients have had angioplasty and bypass surgeries with diabetes. So, how would we manage them? So, that is also a very important part because the patients who have diabetes are prone four times more to heart attacks than patients who do not have diabetes. So, we have to keep this in mind whenever we are seeing patients with diabetes. I am not looking just at the glucose control. That is an important part of my job but the most important part, we need to be alive to look after the diabetes. So, the heart problems are very important to look at the risk factors, family history of heart problems, smoking history, their blood pressure, their cholesterol that is called the ABC. We need to manage the A1Cs, the blood pressure and cholesterol and also look at the family history. So, these patients are supposed to have what is called atherosclerotic heart disease. As opposed to heart failure which is a pump failure of the heart, we have patients with atherosclerosis which is actually a pipe problem. The blood vessels which are in the heart and the brain which supply our legs, these are called the macrovascular problem. They all get blocked over the years of diabetes, blood pressure and high cholesterol and that is called atherosclerosis and for these patients especially in addition to diabetes control, blood pressure control, cholesterol control, we prefer the GLP1 receptor analogs which we have discussed in patients with obesity also because these molecules have shown that we can reduce the cardiovascular that is heart related mortality in the bypass patient or the angioplasty patient by about 22% and even the death due to all cause has also been shown to reduce in people with heart disease and diabetes. If the patient cannot tolerate or use the GLP1 receptor analog for any reason then we can also consider the SGLT2 inhibitors which we discussed earlier. This also has been shown to benefit these group of patients tremendously. So, I think what we are trying to say is you know once a diabetic patient walks into our clinic we need to first look at whether you know they need to lose weight or not and try to help them lose weight if lifestyle fails we give them certain medications like either GLP1 agonist, the injectable or the oral or SGLT2 which will help them lose weight and then once they develop certain complications we need to consider these medications again. Is that what you're trying to say? That is true and like I said we have lot of evidence and in the last decade we are looking at diabetic patient not at the sugar level and selecting the medicines all over the world we are looking at a patient with diabetes what are the other risk factors with the patient whether there is a kidney problem whether there is a heart problem or a heart failure and then trying to treat the patient as a whole. So, it is a lot of personalized medications and there is a big place in the armamentarium of diabetes first being metformin then we have weight neutral medicines like DPP4 inhibitors which actually increase our own endogenous GLP1 levels although they are not as effective as GLP1 receptor analogs especially in weight loss because they do weight neutrality but still they have a big place in the armamentarium So, each patient who comes to us needs personalized attention and looking at the entire spectrum of problems in the patient and not look at just the glucose which was the approach a couple of decades ago and this has taken a long way now and we all do risk management of the patient rather than just glucose control. Having said that diabetes control is of paramount importance but in addition other risk factors for heart disease, kidney problems, liver fatty liver especially and obesity needs to be managed to have a very healthy productive and long life. Thank you. Thank you.