Who's the director? Ladies and gentlemen, good morning. What a good crowd for this time in the morning and in all this traffic. Welcome to this session in the round. I'm going to spin around just to get a sense of the room here. It's a bit Shakespearean, isn't it? This is the globe theater kind of experience going on here. We're going to record this particular session for broadcast on Channel News Asia next week. So if I do inexplicable things like throw to a break, it's because we're doing it for TV purposes. So please bear with us. What we're going to do is open up with our, I'll make a brief introduction to the camera, set the scene for what we're doing, and then we'll pretend it's a live TV show. From that point onwards, we can carry on and do what we're doing. I mean, I think there is a provision for questions. OK, so we'll spend about a half hour, 40 minutes, chatting amongst ourselves, and then hopefully you guys can join in and question the panel as much as I do. We're going to treat it as something of a free form conversation rather than a question and answer session. The panel is a very interesting mixture of expertise and experience, and hopefully they can bring their own individual experience to bear and interact with each other, and you'll get more out of it from that. So having said all that, let me make my introduction to the TV camera, and we'll kick off the show. I'm standing up because I can look around much better, and I think much better when I stand up. So hopefully that doesn't apply to you guys, so you can just move. But once I've made the introduction, I'll sit down and then we'll crack on. Hello and welcome to the annual meeting of the new champions here in Tianjin in China, the World Economic Forum's annual gathering for East Asia, the Summer Davos, as they call it. Today, we're going to be talking about Asia's business context. I have with me a distinguished panel of people who will debate their experiences and their expectations for the development of Asia within the general strictures of what we're talking about here in Tianjin. I will sit down and introduce them to you individually, and we'll set the scene for our conversation today. I'll begin with Kevin Sneeder of McKinsey. He's joining us here, Torihiko Kojima of Mitsubishi. He's with us, Kaushik Basu of the World Bank, and Victor Chu. I hope each one of you will introduce yourselves much more formally and with greater detail as you speak, and we'll lay the context. Now, we're talking Asia's business context, and it's a very general topic to begin with. So perhaps the best thing that we could do is try and define what that actually means to each one of you from your perspectives and your experience as to how you see the context and where you think it's going. Because as we wake up this morning, President Obama is speaking again about the threat of ISIS. ISIS has already spoken about the threat it intends to pose in various countries in Asia. We have a poll showing that the relations between Japan and China, at least in the minds of their citizens, have worsened, and that kind of rivalry seems to be getting worse. The ASEAN economic community is supposed to start next year, and we hear that businesses are getting very worried about whether that will deliver what it promises to deliver and whether it will be successful in the manner that the politicians hope it will be. So there are any number of areas we can go with this context, and I'd like to hear from you as to which are the important and the crucial ones for the future. So I'll stop talking and ask Victor to begin. Victor, the context of where we are now, to you, means what, and what should we be discussing at this forum? I think if you look around the world, I mean, Asia is still a oasis for investors. I mean, with high growth relative to the rest of the world, we have huge potential with different Asian economies working with each other, as you say, the ASEAN economic community coming in. But at the same time, we have also huge challenges. The triangular relationship between China, Japan, and Korea needs a lot of work to get back onto normalization. The new presidency in Indonesia, Singapore coming to its 50th anniversary, China now still enjoying relative to high growth, but obviously huge domestic challenges too. So I think Japan with Abinomics coming back to everybody's radar screen. So I'm very excited about Asia, but there are things that we need to work and double our efforts. Bangkok emerging from military into crazy civilian administration. How would that manifest itself going forward? So I think we are an extremely interesting subject and if we make it work, we will be the envy of the world in the next five years. Make it a bit more personal for a second, if you could. I mean, from your own experience in business, in politics, and being part of the Asian community. Tell us, tell the audience a bit about yourself and what drives you in this context. I think in this time of history, I'm very pleased and proud to be Asian.  We as a firm are big investors in China, but also we are big investors now in Japan, in Indonesia, in Thailand, as well as in Singapore. So what's happening in Asia and within Asia is of enormous interest to us. And we are also investing now heavily in Europe and try to bring European companies into the Asian market but also helping Asian companies, particularly those in China, as they invest abroad. Kaushik, the World Bank. The World Bank, I suppose, is a generic term, but I think most people will see it as a Western organization. You have a foot in both camps, I suppose, West and East. Explain to us what you see today. Thank you. You know, today globally, if you're looking at the range of things happening, is dreadful, as you pointed out in the beginning. Bad news, war, battle, all kinds of risks all over. In fact, what earlier one used to do with horror films, occasionally you feel like switching off. Occasionally with the news now, you feel like really switching it off and look the other way because it's so bad. In that global scenario, I have to second what Victor said just now, that this is a bit of a large oasis, Asia, with all its, there are many troubles, many problems, but despite that, when it comes to the global economy, the hope, a lot of hope resides with Asia. There are also risks and dangers. Asia is a very motley group. In fact, at one level, there are parts of Asia which are wealthy and well-organized, like Scandinavian countries, Nordic countries. Parts are poor, like sub-Saharan Africa. You put it all together and that's what Asia is. And the experiment with economic policy also is really a range. China, I can tell you if China with its regular policies, the policies that China followed, if China did not grow at all, economists would have told you we could have predicted that. The fact that they could have predicted that means that economic theory is not quite up to the challenge of what China has done, which is a phenomenal growth over a 30-year period. Even in the global scenario now, this region is becoming important because first of course there was Japan, Singapore, then later on China comes in. India, for a long time, was a very slow growth region, right up to 1990. In fact, the joke in India used to be that India's growth rate is written in the scriptures of the land. So it's immune to economic policy. But from 1994, India takes off and from 2005, India is growing at rates above 9%, which was really unthinkable. So this is a region with a lot of growth and potential and even with the slowdown, the slowdown has hit all these countries. From 2008 to 2009, you can feel it. But even with the slowdown, China with the slowdown is at 7.5% or so, rough growth. Indonesia, which actually did very well through this period, has slowed down now. It was relying a lot on commodities and that slowed it down. India, for me, the most telltale was about a year ago on a television in India, the interviewer said, what's happening to the country? It's going to the dogs. Growth is down to 5%. That shows a change in yardstick, which even 15 years ago, that sentence wouldn't make any sense. So this region has changed with a huge amount of global responsibility because Africa has stirred and over the last five, 10 years, you're seeing a lot of growth in Africa. But if you dissect it, a major part of that is actually the linkage with Asia today, primarily China. That link is getting that region growing. So there's a lot of hope, resides on this in this turbulent world. So we have to just keep it together and there are some challenges. Maybe I'll come back to some of those later. Just very quickly though, within the context, and I suspect that your framework of analysis is maybe more disciplined because of the organization for which you work. Out of all of that, what do you think is the most significant element determining the growth of Asia in this context?  But what are the things that you see as being the important element? You know, the initial takeoff of Asia, Japan, Singapore, China, lot of it is driven by very standard textbook driver. Investment and savings was the initial driver. But once a country begins to do reasonably well, you can't rely on that. It has to be innovation and innovative activity. This is picking up in Asia. South Korea is doing actually very well on that. Japan has done well on that. China is beginning to invest in that. So I feel in the next round, the driver has to be innovative activity, research, and that's going to be a bit of a challenge for this region because that was not the original driver for Asia. Lida Kui, David, you sit at Tsinghua University. And I suspect your academic perspective and how your students are responding and demanding from you direction and leadership. What do you see from your position there within China as being the important parts? And particularly, I'm interested to know what you think about Lika Chang's speech yesterday and the emphasis on innovation that Kaohsiung mentions. We hear it every day now in Asia. Well, I think Asia, to begin with, Asia is a very actually big concept, larger than we often think. Asia covers from Japan, China, all the way to Turkey, right? So we are talking about huge context. So for this whole area, a huge part is now challenged because of security issues. That's the western part of Asia, right? That let's put aside. For the rest of Asia, I think two themes are interplaying with each other. One theme is the global financial crisis. As with all crisis in human history, initially when the crisis hit, people were panic, but very soon people realized not so bad, not so bad as in almost all countries in the world. By 2009 and 2010, most economies began to recover. And that's the case for India, that's the case for China and many other countries in this region. However, hard work began to kick in five years after the global financial crisis. Each country is facing the aftermath of the financial crisis and the fundamental courses of the financial crisis. So every country is working hard doing its homework, trying to deal with the problems. In India, they are working on structural problems, right? Taking away impediments to investments and the deficits, the budgetary deficit and the current deficit. In China, of course, we all know that, the old engines of growth, relying upon property market, relying upon export, have to be replaced by new engines of growth. And innovation is one of the drivers of the new engines of growth. So on top of that, there's another theme which is interplaying with this, the first one. That is the emergence of China. China, remind us, four years ago, just surpassed Japan as the second largest economy. Now, if you remember, it's almost twice as large as the Japanese economy, either end of this year or next year. This is amazing. So this big and emerging economy is taking room naturally in various dimensions, various arena. Naturally, the whole structure, the power balance has to be adjusted. However, the problem is the US, the Americans, oftentimes are, I think, overly worried about the consequences of the increase of the size of China. And our neighbors, including Japan, are also very concerned. And that's a source of conflicts in this region. So these two themes, I think, are interplaying with each other, making issues very complicated and interesting from the academic perspective. Very realistic perspective, too. Thank you for that. Pick up on a couple of those things in a moment. Kojima-san, Chairman of the Board of Mitsubishi Corporation, your focus is on trading and on investment in the area. Explain to us what, to you, are the important elements here. Well, our company, Mitsubishi Corporation, used to be just a trading company, but now the business model is changing because the business circumstance in the world is now changing. Therefore, now our company's trading profit is just 20% and 80% is coming from the investment. But we invest not only money, but also human resources. We send our people for the CEO or managing level of our subsidiary companies. That's very, very important. And also, we have over 200 offices in 90 countries throughout the world. Therefore, we can analyze what will be happening next. Therefore, based upon that, we are changing our business model. Then talking about the issue, and I like to talk about India and ASEAN and China. But it will take some more time, but later on I will exchange a comment. But India is concerned. And a new premier, Mr. Modi, visited Japan last week. And he said he will change India. And that was very much impressed. His comment was very good. Then I felt that we have so many chance to develop more business in India. You may know India's problems state by state, regulation and the tax system is changing, different. Now he likes to control everything by himself. And if that is the case, we can manage more business in India. And besides, quite recently, we formed the joint venture with Indian companies. And also, we have already invested more than 150 companies in China. Now that we are working very closely. Therefore, we know what is happening. Therefore, under such circumstances, ASEAN, total economic situation is very good. And ASEAN and the western part of Latin America, the economic constitution is good. Then we have so many offices throughout the world. We are watching and how to make our next business model and strategy. And therefore, maybe later on, I can explain some of my... I'd be very interested in knowing how your strategy is changing in the light of what you're saying. We'll come to that in a moment. Let's just allow Kevin, last but not least. Kevin's need a new chairman of McKinsey, Asia, but with a history going back quite a long way. And things have changed enormously in the times you've been engaging with Asia. But in the present day, in the present moment, your feelings about the context. Well, I think the context, to me, was brought to life. I spent the first part of this week. I came from Italy yesterday and I was in France and Germany days before that. And if we want to sit and talk about risk and why this is an oasis, meaning with a number of our client chief executives, the overwhelming sense was it is far more risky to be investing or operating in Italy, France and Germany than it is in many parts of the region that we currently call Asia. And I think that is a large part of the context. It's set by what's happening in the rest of the world. And Asia, therefore, is, as Victor said, an oasis. There are high expectations and clearly you have to disaggregate what we mean by Asia. But I think there remains an overwhelming sentiment, which I think is legitimate, that the growth engine of the world is here. This is what, 38% of the world's exports, 36% of the world's imports are in Asia. We have a situation in which the optimism that has renewed in terms of India and the rest of the world may give rise to expectations that are unreasonable, but nevertheless, there is an optimism. And I can see it in clients, CEOs and investors at this point in time. In China, we debate whether it's 7.5%, or 7.5% or 6.5%, but we're still debating that level of growth. And if we go to Japan, everybody is debating, well, is Abinomics now, is the third arrow going to hit? Are we going to see this maintenance of a growth trajectory that we haven't seen from Japan for a long time? And Jacobi in Indonesia can he deliver against very high expectations? The Asian business context is one against the rest of the world where risk is everywhere. I think people are looking at Asia to lead in terms of growth. And the questions I tend to get are more around how much can we trust and have confidence in China maintaining its growth rate? Do we think Asia will be able to harness the internet and digital and all the powers and opportunities it unleashes, because actually it's being, in many respects, driven from here, not from other places? And do we think that Asian companies can continue to invest at the rate they're investing in the rest of the world? Because it's not just here where they're investing, they're driving a lot of the investment, the FTI that's going in elsewhere. So the Asian business context I think still remains one which is far more positive than the rest of the world. But of course we could spend the next 45 minutes happily debating all the risks that are here. But I would argue they actually pale compared to some of the risks that you see in mature Europe and other parts of the world. Interesting take. Let me just ask you about the importance of China maintaining its growth rate that you just said, because for a lot of people they'll put everything Asia in that one category. They'll say it all depends upon that one thing. But as our other panelists here are saying, there's so much more going on that's of interest. And India's emergence is obviously one of them. And Lika Chung yesterday himself said, we are now not thinking so much in terms of we must hit a growth rate anymore. Their own thinking is much broader. So how important is that China growth rate to you? And what happens if people begin to diversify their focus? Well I think the growth rate matters in as much as there's a lot of plans being made by corporations and companies on the back of assuming a certain level of growth. But let me just say a few things about that growth. China's undergoing a switch. It's no longer an investment driven engine. It's a consumption situation. Consumer consumption is rising. The new middle class are here. There's a lot of companies making plans to its target and supply into that marketplace. China's only just begun to harness the internet. The consumer internet has been harnessed. But China lags in broadband penetration and it lags on adoption of the internet for common purposes by its small and medium enterprises. Those two factors together, if we can sort out the broadband, sort out the adoption of the internet on the business side, will drive at least an extra 100 basis points of GDP growth for China. So I think while the growth rate matters, there are plenty of places where you can see continuing momentum and actually increasing momentum because technology has not yet landed fully in this part of the world. Chinese companies invest about 2% on IT, the rest of the world 4%. There's a lot of room for growth still here in the existing companies. And I think that gives me reasonable grounds for optimism around the business side of the marketplace. The geopolitics, that's a different matter. Well, maybe that's something we can touch on in a moment. It's a good place to take a short break. And when we come back, I'll ask all of you to maybe engage with what the others have said. Is there anything that you've heard right now that you might disagree with? We'll be back in just a couple of more minutes. There we go. All right. Great, great. Can we have this camera on? And I'll do a welcome back. I need that camera on. OK, here we go. Welcome back. We're talking about Asia's business context here at the World Economic Forum in Tianjin. Victor, in the first half, we laid a broad groundwork of what the context is here. And obviously, optimism is very much, I think, at the forefront of people's minds. It's human nature to see the potential rather than the danger. But I'd just like to ask you to address one of the things that David said. And that is the history of the financial crisis is something that only he touched upon. And the way we've emerged from that and whether we think that's behind us, could you just address what you think about that? I think we are much smarter than before. But human nature being what it is, we bound to make mistakes again. But if you look at it, the financial and the regulatory architecture and infrastructure is now much more solid than before. I think where the risks I see more imminent is really regional security and regional conflicts. I think if you travel around Asia and meeting a lot of the policymakers, I think we know what the challenges are. We know we have to go through more structural reform. We know we have to make more efforts on to fight corruption, to increase transparency, to increase participation in politics. I think they got it, the big picture. The challenge is they must have a stability and peace background. The backdrop has to be there for them to have the ability to implement these policy initiatives. So I think we sitting in this oasis, we have to treasure that we are living in a very privileged situation. The last 30, 40 years has been wonderful for all of us. And we really have to work hard to make sure that the regional conflict can be managed. And we are win-win together rather than lose-lose. I think that's where I see is the most imminent danger. Let's talk about the regional politics from an alliance's perspective. If you could, Koji Masen, you were talking about Narendra Modi's visit to Tokyo recently. And the whole Japan and its alliance building right now I think is an interesting way of looking at this. From your perspective as a businessman, where do you think the alliances could be stronger and how do you see those alliances being built at a political level as well as a business one? Okay, well, talking about India and where Mr. Modi's comment was very good because our concern of the business in India was the states by states, regulation and tax rule is different. And if we are requested to invest for the infrastructure and railway cross-border states, then the regulation is changing. It's very difficult for the private company to take that risk. Therefore, those countries, particularly India and the Sian countries in China, infrastructure business is very important for now. And we are requested to participate. And Prime Minister Abe and he already announced to provide some finance for the Indian business and the such circumstances.  If the central government in India has the capacity to control the country, that's very good for us. Therefore, now the changing, I got some feeling, now the business chance for us to develop in India. And also, besides that, we formed the joint venture with Indian companies. And that's also very good. And therefore, there are so many businesses throughout the world. For instance, now the very important business in the world is the shale gas. And we are working together with the Chinese company, shale gas project in Canada. These kinds of things are business model. And not by lateral, but together with China, or together with India, we will develop some business for the countries. This kind of business model is now our company's business model. But you said before that your whole trading strategy, your analysis is changing in its nature. But when you look at this, and obviously you have to lay your bets in as many baskets as you can in order to minimize your risk. But in general terms, would you say that the alliances with India or China cause you more concern right now? And the important thing is our employee has to say kind of knowledgeable of the country and the business field. Then they can control all business throughout the world. And it used to be just a trading company. Just import and export or buy and sell us in between and then get the trading profit. But not our business model. We involved in the investment. We understand from every industry, from upstream to downstream through the investment. And we have to understand what the business is. What the business circumstances is changing. Then how to get these joint venture companies more profitable and stronger. Always we are thinking about that. That is very important. Okay. I think from pure business and economics perspective, Prime Minister Abe's strategy of working with India rather than with China doesn't make sense. Why? Because China is four or five times the market as large as India and still growing faster. And the market is much, much bigger in China. So forgetting the big market, working with the small market doesn't make sense. So I think rather the political motivation behind Prime Minister Abe is the main reason. I think seems to me his strategy is to use his diplomacy working with the Indian, working with Australia, working with the US and also domestically revising the constitution. To generate hopefully enough political support to push for economic changes or reforms needed for the economy. So that's a strategy of, this is my observation. What the question is whether the strategy is working or not. So far I haven't seen major success. Specifically I haven't seen any major, major specific measures, economic measures domestically. Dealing with reducing government budget, dealing with reducing your energy dependence upon foreign countries, therefore cutting down your trade deficit right now. And also helping enterprises, your firms go into the big markets in China. So I am a bit, a bit pessimistic about the prospect of the Japanese economy. Anyone want to weigh in on the issue I think it's very interesting here. I resonate with what Kojima-san said. We're doing something very similar. Businesses are already cooperating on a regional and multinational basis. As Kojima-san said, Japanese companies with Chinese companies are cooperating in Canada but also in the Middle East. Oh yes. Now we from Hong Kong, we are bringing Chinese companies to invest in infrastructure projects in Japan. So I think we already appreciate that win-win connection. Whereas there's a bit of a mismatch on the political side. I think on business it's much easier to build effective, profitable win-win alliances. And we very much hope that we can stimulate you know more of these. But is it really possible in this context to separate the ideas of business and politics? I mean it's driven by these issues. We are. The reality is this. Maybe this is a classic example of I can see something working in practice but does it work in theory? Well let's put the theory to one side. The reality is China's biggest investor is Japan. Massive investment from Japan is China. India has the benefit of a lot of people looking at it now and thinking will they invest but I can assure you the conversations are there and the investment discussions are underway. And I think the reality is this region's opportunity if there is one if you just take ASEAN is intra-Asian trade in ASEAN has half the levels of within Europe. The EU enjoys twice the level of trade amongst its members so it's a necessity. Is that happening because or despite the political situation? It's happening despite the political situation.  What has characterized Asia in the past is the interaction between Asian countries and if you take the whole span of it is largely mediated by the West frankly, Europe, United States. And that is what you would expect. Those were the early drivers of growth and still the largest economic zones, Europe and United States. So a lot of the politics is mediated through that. What you're seeing now and I think that's what Kojima-san was referring to is a slight step up in bilateral. It doesn't matter which country, which two but two, three, four, there's much more bilateral, trilateral, quadrilateral interaction beginning to take place in Asia. That is very, very important because you want this cluster of countries. Yes, you talk with the entire world and it's a small enough world that we want all these channels to be open. But when you're the growth driver of the world, you ought to have much more direct face to face. And we are seeing the first steps of that in the political arena and we should all welcome that because really for peace, for better economic prosperity, that's very important. But let's make a specific point in this context and that is ASEAN economic community. All the businessmen I've spoken to in the course of the past couple of years around Asia are saying the political vision does not match their realities and they don't know what's going on. As someone who's involved in this, Kojima-san, how do you view that economic community and is the political direction adequate or irrelevant? Therefore, say, if the government support our business, that's very good. And therefore, in India case, and Mr. Modi and Mr. Abe very closely communicated to each other for the future. And this includes, of course, business. And for the business person, we are very happy that the government people communicate to each other. And if we may have some problems in the states by states, I'd like to ask our program minister to communicate with Mr. Modi, it's possible. Therefore, if the government level has a very close communications, that's good. However, if now just started to make a communication level in the government, but still the business level always communicating to each other. Therefore, we have so many reliable partners in China. We are always communicating this. And what is the best business model? And for that business, government may not support us. If our partner said, we don't like to proceed to those business. Therefore, important issue for the business level, we should communicate with the business level always. What is the best business model? And therefore, we like to develop more business, of course, in China. And however, for that purpose, if the government announced some flexibility for the regulation and rule, that's very good. And therefore, in that case, it's very surprising for Premier Modi visited Japan the first time, then communicated, then they discussed about some regulation will be more flexible. And maybe you may know, as I told you, states by states, the regulations are different. But the central government announced that, that is very, very important for us to develop more business, all right. Let's take a short break and we'll be back in just a couple of more minutes with some more talk about the Asian business context. All right, start again. And welcome back. We're talking about Asia's business context today. And Kashyap Basu, I just want to ask you about what Lika Chang was talking about yesterday and if we can just continue the political theme for a moment. Because if you didn't know who he was and you just read the text of his speech, you'd think he was the leader of a free market economy talking about development models. Narendra Modi went to Japan and as the leader of a country which also has a historical economic model that is based in what you would probably, I guess, charitably describe as semi free market is talking the same sort of language. We've said before the break about how you think that the business is driving the politics as much as the other way around. I'm just wondering if you think that is the case. How do you analyze the potential for these governments to actually deliver a free market model that they're talking about because of their political background? One great shift in the ideological discourse the world over is the convergence on that. We continue to use different labels. You may have a name for your party which looks very alien to the name for another party but in terms of the core economic ideology it's surprising how much convergence there has been and that's what you're referring to in these various people's comments. The importance of the market is being recognized just across the spectrum. That you can't run this complex mechanism by the state taking over these decisions. You have to allow the laws of the market to function. At the same time, there's also concerns for huge inequalities and matters like that that the government has to intervene in some strategic places. Infrastructure was mentioned. Regulation, there has to be some regulation but it has to be a cogent regulation, country wide regulation. This commonness of thoughts space for the free market to function. At the same time, a regulatory system that enables it to function well is common across China, United States, India, Japan and there is a lot of hope in this convergence in human thought that has taken place. And it's been a hard battle for the profession of economics getting to this point. And the politics too, I mean from the West they still look at this region and consider it as being a work in progress because the progress they want to see is not necessarily just the free markets but the political change too. Yes, I think that's a very important point. Here we used to see India and China doing different things but the growing economic and strategic interdependence between these big blocks are really happening. I think just because Japan and India are now strengthening cooperation there's nothing for China to fear. India and China are also re-approaching. Mr. Moody is known to be also friendly to China. From India's point of view they have to cooperate much closer with both Japan and China. And I will bet you a modest sum that the biggest investor in Indian infrastructure projects will be both Japanese and Chinese. It's one thing though to say China should not be fearful but it's a reality, different. Yeah, take ASEAN countries for example. China for the past 10 years has been very active working with ASEAN countries doing a lot of treaties. In fact the pace of speeding up the free trade between China and ASEAN countries was ahead of schedule actually for the past 10 years. So this is a natural reflection of the size emergence of the Chinese economy. So naturally China is taking the lead working with ASEAN countries but this fact is not widely perceived as a positive development from some other countries like Japan. So this is an example of the source of conflicts. Economic needs, you cannot push for a logic of China playing a more leadership role whereas politics are preventing that from happening. Also let me comment on the ideology issue. It's very interesting, I often do this mental experiment if you put together 10 economists from China together with 10 economists from the US, I bet the average or the most of the orientation of the economists from China is on the free market side whereas most of the American counterparts are on the left side arguing for more government regulation for example with the leader of the Wall Street and more redistribution. So the ideology, the economic thinking in China is actually more pro-market. The issue of course is to put these ideas into reaction, into reforms. That's the challenge. Well Councillor talked earlier on about the economists disagreeing on most things and the old joke goes if you laid all the world's economists head to toe they'd never reach a conclusion. But let's forget the economic aspect. What would you say about consultants? Well, that's why I'm coming to you next. Thank you. It's like from a consultant point of view I guess there's more pragmatism in forms you're thinking. But what of, let's take Myanmar for a case in point. I mean all the trends that we've been talking about is evident in Myanmar. They've suddenly decided that this is necessary change and that the about turn has been startling. But at the end of the day, what kind of political model will survive in Asia amidst all of these changes and these changing priorities? Well I think it's very, I find it very hard to debate the political model. I think the consensus though on the economic model is striking. Well look at this. Can business live with a political model that is not Western capitalist democracy? What is Western capitalist democracy? I mean the democracy that we've got now, I mean you can debate that forever. I think the point that we're all I think aligning around is the labels just don't help. Yesterday in the UK, most of the debate is around the breakup of the United Kingdom, inequality and how to legislate on wage controls, dealing with a Europe that seems much more interventionist in its regulatory approach. What label do you want to give that? And so I think the reality is these labels are just unhelpful. What really matters is can Asia maintain what has hitherto driven a lot of its growth which is an increasingly open approach to trade? And trade is leading a lot of the economic development and I think the opportunity Asia has hinges on the maintenance of that. Now geopolitics may get in the way. There is no question that the political debate is absolutely relevant. But let's reflect on a few things. Look at what is happening in ASEAN rather than what is not happening. What is happening is the development of the inter ASEAN trade is at levels that are unprecedented. It's unprecedented. It's still half the level of the European Union but there is a lot more to go in 2015 as an important landmark in that development. China's investment level is unprecedented so it is driving a lot of the economics in other countries. But I also have a look at what Japan has been doing and look at what India's been doing. And I think the overwhelming message here is there's no question the politics can get in the way but the economic engine that is churning in Asia is one that's premised on trade and growth. And I think that is driving a lot of the conversation and we can put labels around it but the labels are just not helpful. All right, it's also premised on investment in infrastructure and that investment to a large part is driven by governments as much as anything else. One of the themes of this forum, this meeting this year is innovation. Mika Chang yesterday was banging the innovation and entrepreneurism drum very hard indeed. And I'm wondering you guys, what do you think is the future of innovation and entrepreneurship in Asia? And Victor, I'll begin with you because some 20 years ago Kishom Mahbubani in Singapore wrote a book, Can Asians Think? And in the past, over the course of the next 20 years, the question is being asked of many forums I've been to is can Asia innovate? The idea of generating intellectual property of its own is something that has become an obsession with a lot of governments around here. So let's begin there. Is innovation the future of Asia? I think the question is, and Tainim is conceived.   You have this dream ticket here in Asia. I hope there's some Americans in the room who might want to challenge us. No, but it's absolutely true. The numbers support this assertion because look at where the innovation in the world is happening. In services, outsourcing, that was innovated from India and it continues to be innovated from India. Technology, go tell Samsung they're not good at innovation. I mean, really? And if you have a look across the region of the internet economy, all the consumer, WeChat, Baidu, Tencent, Alibaba, far more adoption of consumer led internet here than in the United States. Now it's true that the BTB side isn't the same. So in reality, whilst that slogan, I've also heard that Asians can't market, they're not good at marketing. Well, that's also, have a look at the companies, Huawei, ITC. And there's just a lot of innovation happening here. It may happen without the pizzazz of the Silicon Valley noise. And it doesn't happen in that way, it's true. It happens through more collective thought but there is a lot of innovation in this part of the world. True, I agree with this. But there's one level of innovation where I think Asia needs to move into, which is really the absolutely fundamental sciences. There, the dominance of United States is very, very clear. And that does not immediately translate to next day's business strategy, but has a long run advantage. And I feel Asia has reached a stage where that is needed. And I hope we will have the sense because to sustain the long run growth, the growth performance has been phenomenal over the last 20 years or so. But to sustain this, we will need the kind of research that is already taking place, Japan, Korea, really in the frontline of that. But fundamental research, we need to step up so that a lot of the completely new ideas in science begin to come out, not for any chauvinistic reason, but you want this to happen in the growth-leading region for this to take predominance as well. This is a very interesting topic. Talking about scientific research, I just came to realize two statistics. The first is that the number of patents registered in China is almost... Exceed the reservoir. Almost as large as the U.S., I think in terms of the core, they're really the innovative ones, right? And also in terms of scientific publication, the things you were familiar with and citations, China, being a second largest economy, is now very secure in second place in terms of publication in scientific journals, referee journals, as we all know that. So that, I think, is a good sign showing that in this region, at least in China, there is fire back in the room, which will gradually come in to drive the innovation down the road. All right, let's bring in the audience here. I'm sure there's a number of people who have questions.  Good morning, and thank you for waking us up. That's a wonderful debate. And I have to add one element to this wonderful Asian business context. My question goes to my dear friend and mentor, Victor Chu. You talked about national interest or relation between two countries or regions, but something go beyond that is threatening us, that is climate change. So what is your view of Asian business context in climate, climate change? For example, today we see many scenes in the river system, people evacuating. And Chinese bread basket, northeast Asia, northeast part of China will suffer from drought in many years to come. And even Japanese infrastructure is threatened by traditional rains. And those are huge threats, but do you see how you see the challenges and opportunities posed by climate change over this wonderful growing Asia? Thank you for bringing that subject up. Anyone else wants a question? Please put your hand up and the microphone will come around. Victor. Thank you for that question. I think both in our generation and the next generation, obviously sustainability is now really the key word. And the alignment between politics and business is really in legitimacy. And that is really how can we deliver in order to provide social impact for our stakeholders? So on that question on climate change, I think everybody, we are one world, everybody is the same. Is whether the particular country, in their particular economic cycle, can accelerate more or less to the agreed targets? I mean, China, to be fair, is really probably walking the fastest because China is a big, also a polluter. But the political will to get it right is there, both from the previous administration as well as the current administration. And I think you can see that in this question of climate change, we're all at one. And I'm grateful for you for raising this question. Kojima, sound very quickly. In your business, how much is climate change in forming your decision-making? As far as the climate change and also the other issues are environmental issues. And say, we are very much prepared to support and help the Asian countries. And this is a kind of technologies. And say, since Japan has so many experiences and climate issues and also earthquake issues and so many things. And how to protect those things we are seriously studying. And this might be of some help for the Asian countries in the future. And therefore, just I'm talking about the infrastructure business, but also and environmental businesses and also how to protect those climate change and also earthquake and tsunami and so forth. And we are very much experienced. That's kind of always some help for the Asian countries, I think. Okay, who has the microphone? Anyone? Behind you. Does someone actually have a microphone or we're just wanting a microphone? Oh, there it is. Oh, please, the young lady over there. I thought we'd already passed that around. Try again. My question is for all the guests. And after the financial crisis and the United States have come up with QE and Europe has also put down there interest rates and everyone knows that long term low interest rates may distorting the investment decisions and also push the assets significantly high beyond these fundamentals. My question is that given that the lifting raising interest rates in America is imminent, would that hurt the fundamentals of the world economy? And how Asia cope with this impact? When we saw the first announcement of the tapering, which was last May, there was a huge reaction. Exchange rates across the emerging economy, there were huge depreciations. My expectation is that when the time comes, of course we are already seeing the tapering in terms of the asset purchase in the US, but interest rates as well. Actually I feel the negative impact of that is going to be smaller for the following reason. The announcement came that this is what we intend to do and from December we saw that last December the US moved on the tapering. But now when the tapering actually takes place it's going to be locked step with improvements in the American economy. So the economy strengthens and there's going to be a little bit more tapering. And I feel the strengthening news of the United States is such good news for the rest of the world. It's still the biggest driver that that coming with the tapering is going to soften the effect of the tapering. So I am concerned and you have to watch. But maybe less than when there is a pure announcement without the economy having improved than what is going to happen down the road. There seem to be a lot of questions so if we can keep the questions and answers sure. That would be great. Next one please. Thank you. I'd like to know the panel's view on the impact of this debate. This debate for instance on growth in sub-Saharan Africa. Kevin I think your company came up with a report recently indicating that with increasing improvements in governance and infrastructure the growth in sub-Saharan Africa in particular that has been sustained over the past decade or so is likely going to escalate. And I think we already seen the response of the Chinese and to some extent the Indians in terms of massive investments into Africa especially sub-Saharan Africa. Recently with the African summit we see also the Americans are now also turning around and looking at the opportunities in Africa. And of course our traditional partners the Europeans will probably wake up to that very soon as well. Given this and given the fact that whether in fact the Asians can innovate or not it is clear that they are going up the value chain. It is most likely that we are going to see massive investment flows from all these regions into sub-Saharan Africa. What in the panel's view is likely going to impact the growth in Africa given the uncertainty of the political situation. Thank you. We are optimistic about growth in Africa for all the reasons. You have just one place where I think China for example will be directly relevant and this is the rising labour costs in China. Manufacturing costs in China can just rise. The cost of labour is a big component of that and you can see Chinese companies already investing and manufacturing in the sub-Saharan African territory and I think that is going to continue because the pressure on the wage rates in China is pretty significant and there also is the reality of a demographic deficit. China's working population has started to shrink. People have not spent a lot of time talking about the implications of that but the fact that China's working population is shrinking on the one hand labour cost continues to rise on the other it does suggest that in places like sub-Saharan Africa the investment is going to come both in the infrastructure which we know about but also in the manufacturing and other sides of the economy. That's right. In addition let me add that 2014 will be a landmark year in which China will have more outgoing direct investment than incoming and Africa is the third largest destination of Chinese investments and moreover the structure of the investment from China in Africa will change moving from resources into manufacturing. Another quick question. I got a very quick question to Professor Lee. You talked about the Chinese leadership toward the ASEAN countries. What's the vision of Chinese leadership vis-à-vis ASEAN countries particularly in terms of vision, in terms of value? I think the vision is very simple that is to integrate economically ever closer with the ASEAN countries and in the process work closely on the political diplomatic relations. In this, don't forget, these countries have a lot of traditional Chinese business investors and historically there are a lot of ethnic Chinese living and migrating to this region. Another quick question. Hands please. Anyone? Oh, others. Chatelier. We'd like to have your point of view regarding the issues, regarding challenges about ageing populations and war of talent in Asia. Anyone care to address ageing population? Well, this is, I mean obviously in Japan we can spend a lot of time talking about it but China has the same factors going on. The average age in China, if you look at what's happening to median age it's already 39, it's heading north rapidly and I think as a result the question it creates is both how you make sure that the productivity issue and stop relying on young, low-cost labour and shift up the value chain as was just said but also how we innovate to meet the needs of those ageing consumers because it creates a big opportunity and I think Chinese companies are not yet fully grasping that opportunity in the way that countries, companies coming from the US and others have done so. So the working age and the opportunity that they are for creates is actually both a threat on the one hand I think on the manufacturing side but it's also an opportunity in the innovation side and they need to get after it but governments are going to have to also innovate to ensure that they can deliver services at far lower cost and if they don't do that then there's going to be a real problem because the dependency rates are all going in the wrong direction. Ageing problems are a very serious problem for Japan. Also we have a problem of the reduction of the populations in such circumstances and the working people, the total population is now decreasing and when I went to the Philippines, the Philippines said Philippines has now almost 100 million people there and Japan is 130 or something like and the Philippines is now still increasing a lot and the average age is 22 years or something therefore and we have to collaborate with the ASEAN countries and to protect our ageing problem and also the reduction of the total populations and this is a very important problem for us and try to resolve this problem and collaborating with the ASEAN people and the Chinese people and the Indian people of course. To put in a quick word on this, on the demographics that are general concerns India is still on the dividend slope and the expectation is it's going to peak in 1933-34 so it's going to get younger up to then and then turn around and given that the economy is growing very well actually this ogre is very well that it's going to feed in and take in this labour and give it a growth push but on that the biggest hope is really with Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa where the demographic dividend is going to be very large in terms of the age bulge if the governance and the economy can be gotten to place then you are going to draw on this and become a major driver. We have reached the end of the final word. Very quickly, two very important issues people tend to forget when discussing ageing. Number one is people are getting healthier when they are older controlling the age, people are much healthier than 20 years ago. Second, the per capita income in a country like China when people are still poor whereas meanwhile they are getting healthier if the policies are flexible enough to encourage them to work then the ageing issue can be greatly mitigated specifically encouraging old but healthy and still poor people to work. And there we are going to have to leave it. Gentlemen, thank you all very much indeed. The audience thank you. Please show your appreciation for our panel.


So I think it's important to realize that the ego has many purposes for the body and and None of them are true. That's good to remember second thing is The Holy Spirit has one function for the body and that's the communication device It's that's it's better to start thinking of your body like your cell phone Yeah really It's like don't treat your body any differently than you would a cell phone You don't go to your cell phone tonight.  You need you need some covers and tuck you in Are you hungry? You are okay. I'll plug you in right now You want to be at a hundred percent? Okay all night and And and you don't I mean you get may get a case for it to protect it But some of these cases have you seen some of these iPhone case really diamonds and rest it up, you know Some people have different wardrobes for their cell phone like what what do you want to wear today? you know This is if you could see that you're doing the same thing with the body That you're doing with the cell phone it and that you go to extreme efforts to use your mind for all the many purposes that the ego may get made up for the body and Well, I'll get to the communication thing every once in a while call your mother. No really You know, it's not a happy day if I do that, you know, the spirit's always prompting us to to Let this be used to laugh to share to smile to shine its only use is For a communication device. It's it's not hard to remember one purpose. Jesus is like Please remember this. It's just one not millions just one just please focus on this because guess what as you Start to merge with this one function for the body. You start to feel this unified awareness when you Give it over so much to the Holy Spirit pretty soon. You will learn to forget the body entirely Yes, it will disappear from your awareness. Why? because Nothing in this world has existence in and of itself not a cell phone not a cup not a glass not a shoe Not an apple not a tree not a mountain Why would we think that this world of many many parts are real when God is whole God is one Why would one this create parts? Why would oneness need time? Why was eternity need time? It doesn't The parts are part of the misperception. So basically I was digging through the course and I found many many References the sole responsibility of the teacher of God's to accept the atonement Yes, I saw that one twice and I saw many passages where it said this the one use that the Holy Spirit has For the body is for a communication device and then one day I was going through the course and I came upon a sentence and I went oh my god. It's in here I couldn't believe I found it. I found this one reference Where Jesus said the body has no purpose and I was like oh Wow But you can imagine if your mind becomes so unified like the quantum field everything's energy everything's perfectly connected That in the end guess what disappears your awareness of things you won't be thinking about things and situations You won't be thinking in separation. You won't be thinking in fragmented mind. You'll be thinking in unified unified mind and You are ready for God to take that last step because when everything becomes unified when you start to see this is all Energy and it's all in mind Then you get you are so close to heaven that God will lift you back to pure spirits to pure Love to pure light to the kingdom of heaven


Hi everyone, welcome to the second meeting for the building Jackens with alternative tools project and Today's agenda. We're gonna talk about the project plan and That's basically the only item in the agenda for now unless we have some issues we want to talk about so let's see Let me share the document screen Share screen Okay Let's see Okay, oh we haven't did do you have like I'm gonna ask did you share with us the project plans or do you want to talk about it? Regarding to the project plan Chris, I was thinking that I have tried to Put the things that I had on my proposal that I was that were like good enough in my opinion And I was thinking can't just we use my proposal as the project plan for now because it is really a You know How you'll say it It is like a time-taking process of Writing that same project plan on the wiki. So can we just for now use my proposal? We can put the link to my proposal on the wiki for now And use that as a project plan. I can I can update my proposal with that And when like on some weekend when I'll have the energy to actually do that I'll just put everything to the wiki Would that be fine with you? Yeah, but do you want to walk us through what you have? And let me let me just show the screen first. So would you like to walk us through what you already have So Chris, I think Vandit, I believe Chris's question was do you want to walk us through What we've already what you've got because I think I discussion amongst the four of us of the existing plan is a really good idea Yeah Should I just share my proposal for that? Yeah, just share your screen and let's let's use that as a discussion All right I Can you see can you guys see my screen? Yep Awesome So What the first the first phase for the project would be restructuring the content because Entora uses a complete file structure Then Ostrac So I have already on on the on the Jenkins doc on the Jenkins hyphen doc Repository I have already like started the file structure like that we can add more modules and just Import the import the docs That would that would that would Take maybe Around Two weeks, I guess because some file some files would need to be changed according to the Entora structure like In Ostrac we we define some things in the ad hoc file that is Is not very really necessary in entora. I've written that here somewhere. Yeah conversion of files according to entora So Bundy do you want do you want questions while we're here or would you like to delay questions until later? No, you can interrupt me. Okay, so so I see If you could scroll back up to the list of sections that you've got enumerated there so user guide I understand that's the What the thing calls the handbook Developer guide and that's the one that I could see absolutely needs to be versioned right so that's the one that's entora fully versioned Developer guide would be unversion mark. Oh, it would be unversion. Okay. Yeah user guide will be version Okay, and then contributor guide is one. I don't recognize that one. Is that a It was it was It shouldn't be here. It shouldn't be here. Okay. Perfect. That's it is just like to show what will be the structure. Okay solutions and tutorials I recognize And and I'm assuming tutorials We won't version and the solutions pages. We definitely won't version is that is that assumption a safe assumption It was not written on the project pages how if there will be versions on a version or not, but I think they should be Because tutorials must be versioned according to the version you will be used for Jenkins and solution should be also Okay, so alright. Okay. Good good to know I'm Given the low rate. I guess that's good to know because the solutions pages are quite low rate of change But you're right. Conceptually they could be very much version dependent. Good. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for the clarification We can start we can start the versioning from now on because like what you said the solutions page are not that bulky But they should be versioned or conceptually they should be versioned according to the Jenkins Version you will you the users are using So so then then maybe I should ask a different question should the developer guide be versioned as well that way everything you've got here every guy every item you have here except root is version then A developer guide shouldn't be versioned because When a developer or you can say a developer contributor who will start contributing to Jenkins or who just want to use Jenkins API He won't have access to the old versions of the API. I think he he would obviously use the API the latest API is that we are using so I don't think that should be versioned Okay, my opinion. Yeah, thank you. That seems reasonable to me. Thank you Moving on Yeah I don't think that this file this conversion of files according to enter is the is a tedious task but I don't think it will I just have to remove some things from like from the top part of the page and it would be good to go I I know this was we you in our structure we use dot HTML dot HTML files as the template and And as a template to for other dot a dog files in entora we we you and in entora we we use something similar that is called handle bar js which is a templating engine So we I'll create I'll create a template file in handle bar js and we'll use that replacing dot HTML dot HTML and this this this will reside in the Jenkins UI project repository Is that is that clear to you, Mark? Yes. Sorry Chris Chris is as lead on this I should be a little more quiet You can have questions If you'll ask questions then I we can get to things that maybe I could have done wrong or like assumed wrong Coming to the main problem that I faced was that entora does not really provides anything for dot yml files in our that are in our code base which are road maps and change logs So I but Gatsby does we can use Gatsby we can use a Gatsby plugin that will use the dot ml files as content source and generate that roadmap and change logs for us I have provided the I think I should share my complete screen just a minute I have provided the link to the plugin We will just use the you'll use the content of the yml and the plugin will do most of the work we don't have to do much for this they have like written a really great instructions for that Coming to yeah header and photo from Jenkins dot IO components this was something I figured out during the application period so the Jenkins Jenkins hyphen you Jenkins dash UI project already has header and photo from Jenkins Jenkins dash IO components repository so that would be easy to implement because I've already done so but what I what I noticed was using header and photo from another repository might take some time from On a unstable internet connection but I don't I don't think we take that in account but I was thinking it would be awesome if we could like create create the header and put up from the you from the entora UI itself but that is just like We can do that but we don't have to So the challenge if you create the header and photo from something other than Jenkins IO components is they will drift apart right because plugins dot Jenkins dot IO and stories dot Jenkins dot IO and several other X dot Jenkins dot IO prop locations use those components and you'll suffer drift so yeah but you say that you did implement something in entora that would use the Jenkins components I implement I just use the header and photo from Jenkins IO components repository so we can do that But yeah like I said it is something we can do but it was open to what the mentors would say so that's like yeah I think I think after using that I didn't put it from Jenkins dot IO components would be nice for now because plugins and stories already use that Great. Thank you Well and updates and there are several locations it's it's far beyond plugins Yeah accounts dot Jenkins or exactly yeah yeah this is just the instruction how I will use that how I implemented that we can ignore that this this explains the versioning in entora so entora uses entora dot yml files as if we go here yeah in a root folder or like any folder like this The inner structure would be like this we'll have an entora dot yml at the source root this will have this will decide if the this module would be versioned or not and this will be the entire file structure here the nav dot ad hoc is the sidebar nav that entora uses we'll have to we'll have to add hyper hyper links in here hx href links for to creating the nav bar. So that is also another tedious task work like I'll have to manually manually create that Is that clear to everyone It's too quiet So yeah great if Chris Chris my comprehension wasn't full but I'm okay accepting let's just keep going Yeah This is how we'll implement versioning in user docs because that's the first milestone So I will create we'll create different folders will use all the folders as components in a single repository this is a feature entora provides so our documentation would be divided in folders in directories and these directories would contain modules and entora dot yml so the entora dot yml of user docs will be versioned so it will some look something like it will look like something like this with the version and for the unversion part I'll just we'll just have to replace this with with this and it will be a nonversion Okay Also the versions would be on the versions can be on on tags or on different branches we can create we can create a branch we can create a branch namely version 2.0 v2.0 and we can create a branch version 2.1 and both will have different documentation but it will on our site it will the user can select the version he wants to He wants to read documentation Okay So okay to ask for a pause here in terms of versions Chris I'm assuming that we want the version numbers to be most likely the LTS versions and only the ones of the LTS versions so that we would have a new tag every three months and a new but Vandit had you thought no we'll be doing a tag every week and therefore the weekly releases will get documentation certainly get releases every three months and they version their documentation I'm not sure of anybody who versions documentation weekly what's your experience Nobody from what I have seen that nobody actually changes changes documentation to weekly and most of like the entora dogs entora dog site has has documentation only for for the LTS versions they released Oh good okay so there's a pattern that Yeah they already follow a pattern so we don't we don't clutter we Wait let me show you Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah They or they or they have they versioned they where they versioned entora dogs from 3.0 and 3.1 But if we if you had to do it on a weekly basis it would be so clustered it would be hard to use it would like spoil user experience in a way Yeah So I prefer that we only only provide documentation for the LTS versions Well and for for even more precision the dot one of the LTS you're okay with that so it's every three months every 12 weeks not every four weeks As long as we can see that these are different versions Yeah Right so it'd be 2.387.1 and next would be 2.401.1 Okay got it You can use the 2.2.3 and 2.4 Yeah Coming this this was how will we implement an inversion nonversion dogs with the tilde sign I guess we call it tilde Okay Yeah Entora works on a feature on a concept called start path start paths are basically where will entora start finding the dogs from so the start paths are written in the entora.yml Like this this is this is how you will write the you will write the sources the content sources of our documentation the URL of our repository Let's start path start path since we have multiple since we have multiple documentation so we'll have to write multiple start paths here so this was this will how it will look This was an example path to the entora.yml and then the branches the branches is where I will write the versions like we can write version 2.1 version 2.2 This will this will then all these will have the option that you can switch from version 2.1 and version 2.2 Okay This was this was the this was the screen like what I've created using Jenkins UI that it uses the Jenkins IO component footer Yeah, this that was for phase one and customizing you as which is like the which is like the most important part of this project since we'll have to Jenkins by everything So like I said entora uses handlebars just for UI and it in the day days which I'll show you comment Yeah This is the Jenkins this is the entora UI project it contains these it contains these partials these partials have this these partials already have the base to start from So I think I'll first start I'll first see that what will be the files that I would have to change what would I would actually have to change or would the default or the out of the box code would be fine or not that would I would see that and After that after that I will I will start changing the CSS for each of the component to Jenkins fire it to Jenkins fire it yeah The JS is not much it it is it provides basic functionality that we don't have to change much in this from what I what I have seen changing If you have if you have to add a new functionality we can just to the JavaScript of the site we can do that we can add a new file to here But the the these files are great out of the box we can modify we can we can definitely modify them according to our needs if they change yeah Our customizing the layout is all about the CSS part so yeah I just showed you will have to I'll have to change the CSS in the CSS folder for each of each of the I tried you I tried using the existing CSS but you can say it is kind of a mess on different screen sizes on different screen sizes it does not work really well So I think I think we can we can you we can use this as a base as it is awesomely responsive responsive responsive and work build on build on that But we may we may want like to put a lot more time into like doing this properly like this is yeah this is the most important part and this will take the most time Okay Okay and that's and so the idea there is that the net benefit of this is we will have a much more responsive experience for users at different sizes it will certainly certainly cause changes right there will be changes as a result of that But the ultimate goal is a much more responsive layout as screen sizes change Yeah I'll try I'll try to I'll try that the things that are already there don't break while change while Jenkins fire while Jenkins find the site so yeah That we'll build upon that we'll see I hope I don't break many things Okay This this is this is this is this is how handlebars.js file looks these are the you can you can consider them as a partial as partials So it's just template library I think I've used it before Oh that's awesome then I think I have Yeah Yeah well these are partial and the these these partials will be in the partials represent These partials would be here in the partials repository and I'll change these to change the structure the layout of the the page Okay Yeah but Antora by Antora by default the structure Antora by default uses is much similar to of our Jenkins since they have their nav bar on the side And table of contents on the right side of the screen and the main content on the in the middle so I think it I'll just have to think around with CSS a lot This is the styling according to CSS a CS I think I haven't like explained most of the stuff Yeah Yeah I have a question though I have a question for you but you said like for for for like the Jenkins stock repo you take two weeks to do But how about the the Jenkins dash UI dash project So how do you plan to spend on Yeah I can't actually like if we if we will if I have to say a number I will say maybe around three weeks considering if some if I get stuck somewhere It will take like three weeks to like completely completely customize the UI But yeah if things go well it would it would take three weeks Okay So three to four weeks Yeah Yeah I think we should I should add some buffer so if things go wrong Yeah Okay moving on to the next part Jenkins or IO uses Algolia doc search for as a search engine on the on our site So they enter up enter up provides the instructions on how to how to implement how to integrate Algolia to it so it would be just me for following the instructions the tutorial they provided Yeah I would I would like to know how they they have provided the Docker solution but I but I have I have read Algolia docs there are other ways ways to but I would send this to the Gitter channel so maybe the mentors can review it first before I implement it yeah I'll send I'll send it now I can add it to the meeting minutes Yeah I'll just add it here for now Chris Yeah sure Yeah These are the putter and the header scripts that will that will that will be used while integrating Algolia These were all provided here and from what I have seen on other repositories Yeah Phase 3 is migrating blogs to Gatsby so by default Gatsby is normally used for dot m dot mdx files but we we we have plugins that are you that we can use for dot ad hoc files for our skydog We can I thought we could like create another report for blogs so since it is an expanding topic and blogs expand so it would be nice for to create another report only for blogs but that was like one of that was like we can do that but I would like to know your opinion Maybe put like put everything together for now unless we need to split off we can do it later Yeah, yeah we can because that I have what I have structured the directly like that so we could easily split it off if you in if in future we had to Okay Yeah, we Gatsby Gatsby provides awesome starters so I I start I you start I use this to create that to create if from if you run if you run the project in the Gatsby in the Gatsby block test directory on Jenkins talk It would some it would look something like this No, not this I guess They have changed it would look it would look something like Just a second It gives a block somewhere remember I guess up top go back up top like on the way inside See a block Gatsby start yeah Gatsby start yeah yeah I try I try and start I've got I have created for my POC was the default default starter that I that I created from the CLI so it looks different I send it if I'll find it here It is in it is in the documentation I guess it is like the default starter yeah it is here Yeah, it looks it will look something like this for now With Jenkins logo here what I have created in my POC so it will we can have card we can have blogs as cards that we already have on Jenkins.io Yeah, so just want to confirm with you so we'll use Gatsby for the blog and also for change your log anything else No, no, we only with dot dot dot yeah by ML files would be the only problem for now. Yeah, from what I have seen I don't think there is anything else that would want to work with and Torah Okay, I mean guess me Yeah So the just just to confirm then Vandy that means that the security advisories will be will be done with and Torah because they're a doc No if yeah if they're a dog if if if something is a dog it will be done with and Torah but it's something is dot yml it we can't act we can't do it with and Torah from now because they don't even provide any plug in for dot Okay, so that's we would be the way for that. Thank you. The steps I have written here uses the uses the existing blog that that I can tweak with like I can delete for remove the unnecessary files that won't be necessary for Gatsby but while I was doing that while I was actually doing that many things were many things were unnecessarily breaking and I couldn't figure it out. So I think I'll just copy paste the dot yml files. Yeah Modifying won't work. So that Gatsby is so easy to use we can just we can just lay out the lay out we can just customize the layout from the source layouts index.js that is here. Yeah, this is the layout of this will be the layout of our blog. I'm not I'm not very handy with react but I think I'll be able I'll be able to I'll be able to learn it on the go. So do we use classes or do is functional components react in this case. Normally, normally they are using components. Okay. So what would be your preference Chris. And nowadays, like most people use functional components that that's why I'm asking, because I see like this one. Yeah, okay. Yeah, they're using components. Yeah. Yeah, this is this is this is this is if we were like, if we were planning to use Gatsby for more ask a doctor. More ask a dog but I don't but I think that's off the table so this would be a necessary now. Yeah, the integrate the integration parts of the blog site if they both of them will be in the same repository. I will have to create will have to create a setup file that will install the prerequisites install into run Gatsby locally on someone system and changing changing into correct repositories will build it. Okay. Makefile uses tasks based tasks from I have worked a little bit on on make files while contributing so I'll just set up I'll just have said I'll set up tasks for that. Okay. Yeah. That was all that was all Okay, so if there are any like doubts or cracks you guys saw through these tell me plan looks great to me. Thank you. Great. I have one question like so you have like Gatsby and one is entora. So how you're syncing the design I mean we have like entora site or some CSS handle but this and Gatsby we are making using some I mean react components. So are we going to use the different designs for both I mean fonts and all the so how you're syncing it. I'll have I'll have to I'll have to create components that that follow the current design of the blog site if you if we go here. Just a minute. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, we will follow this design for now. Since since since I will also will also will also see if we could increase the user experience in any way. This Yeah, we'll see if we can modify the user experience in any way but this will be the like the most urgent design will be this. And the search will also be there for blog using Algolia. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you're going to make a component out of it. Okay. One more question like so you are using that entora thing and we have docs versioning thing so we have like some 3.0 and 3.1 and 3.1 is the latest. The user we are going to genkins, they Google Jenkins docs. So will the 3.1 comes in the Google indexes like the latest version should I want to I want latest version to come to Google index so No, no, no, no, no, no, the, the, if someone searches for Jenkins dot IO, like the main site, the main site will pull up and the user can see the user will see a drop down here somewhere here. I'll have to see where we'll put the drop down. Most of the sites have it right, have it on the right side of the search bar. He could, he would be able to, he would end up on the latest, latest documentation site. He would be able to, if we, if we have 3.0 and 3.1 and 3.2, he will see 3.2 out of the box and he can switch. But from, from on Google, it won't say on Google or any browser, it won't like he won't be able to see the versions. Okay, so on the results. Yeah. So if he search like some user search Jenkins GitHub plugin, a GitLab plugin, so some docs will come as a starting or maybe a second time or so when he clicked that link is going to show the latest version of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You will always get the latest version first. Okay. And anything you are so I say shared about and Torah ML file, where we are going passing that configuration. So are you passing any, anything like SEO related stuff like in front matter. So maybe like, if I, if I have a doc, so I want that description, I want to put description of that doc so that it increases SEO of that doc so where you're passing that in front matter like in MDX and all we pass in front matter something. Like, I don't, I don't, I'm not very like handy with the front matter thing, but when I was, I was, I don't think so in Torah like provides any documentation related, I would, I would, I would, I would study about it and maybe then I would have I could answer your question like, I don't know much about front matter now.  So, Rajiv's question is excellent minds a different question is everybody settled on on the answer to Rajiv's question. Yep. Okay, then then mine is, Vandit, could you open under the documentation link here, go to Jenkins pipeline. There's, there's a piece of this. Now, in the bottom left hand corner there's the pipeline steps reference. Yeah. Open that. Okay, so this is, is seems like a natural, well, it, it's, it should be non versioned, I think, but it's a doc. And, and this is where I guess I have to ask you the, do you have a, were you aware of this if not let's make you aware so that you understand how it's. So what this thing is, is there's a program that reads all the Jenkins plugins and extracts the help from them, and then paste them places them available as a doc source files that we use here. But these it seems to me it would be misleading to the user if these were versioned, because the version number we would assign doesn't correlate with the plugin version from which we extracted the documentation. So Chris, could you pick one of those, one, any one of those, or no sorry Vandit you're driving the screen so pick any one of those. Perfect, that's great. So when you click that it takes us to this page that describes this pipeline step, but this pipeline step is not associated with a Jenkins version it's with a plugin version. And so we, I don't think we want this page to be associated to a Jenkins version, because, because we don't know what version the user has running. So if you'll underneath the heading one password secrets there's a view this plugin on the plugin site. And on the plugin site you'll see, oh, here's the here is the actual version number of this plugin. I don't think we need to complicate that page by showing it to the showing them one dot zero to the user. It seemed it would seem poor experience if we misled them to thinking oh that plugin documentation is associated with 2.401.1 because that's not what it's associated with it's associated with version one dot zero. Is it feasible for you to do that as a non versioned page. Because we can like I said we can create we can create a different directly for that and that will be non versioned. Great. Okay, thank you that answered my question and thanks very much. I was not aware of this. I'll just save it somewhere. There's there's another generated page in the search could you look for the word in extensions in extensions. Oh yeah, that's perfect in extensions is great as well. You see there it is click that extensions at the very top. And now on this page there's a link second paragraph from the bottom the extensions index. This thing that we're going to see is another generated thing. And now now okay now Chris you may have to help me with this one this one is. So click on the top most of an extension points defined in Jenkins core this one actually is tied to a Jenkins version but it's always the current version. So at this point it's always weekly. And I'm not sure that we want to version this it isn't it isn't developer it isn't it is like in the developer dog so it won't be worse. Okay, good. All right, so already covered. Thank you. Excellent. Very good. I'll just see if the previous thing was no it was no it was in user handbook. I'll have to create a different actor for that. Yeah, it is already nonversion mark. Excellent. Thank you. Thanks very much. Yeah, any more questions. Like throw them on me. That's all for me. Thank you. Do you have any questions about the pipeline stabs documentation. Or you do know how it works. Since markets are going to ask him like questions. Do you have like some doubt. Because like this, this is quite like. The content that you're that we see on screen right now that content the pipeline content or the is just part of the book and it should be part of the handbook and it should be versioned. So this is a version page, and it is correctly a version page. In steps reference, if I remember correctly the current generation process copies a big zip file in from another location unpacks that zip file and uses it in the generation process. Now, we could, I guess we could change that to do it some other way version branches and versioning but but right now it's just a big zip file of a docs that are generated by a separate process. The only solution I can think of is we'll just create a different, we'll create a different directly only for this. Okay. Right. Yeah. We also will have to create a partial for this so like for this page, because as it unzips from a different location, it will be like, it won't it won't be the normal year it would won't be a normal template, it will I'll have I'll write it. And you should be aware of a of a go back to that page because you need to be aware of a very, very important feature of this page. Very important because we added it last year in Google Summer of Code 2022. In that filter steps field at the very top type in the word checkout. So, so we can't lose what you just saw happen. That shrinking. Don't, don't lose that. Yeah, that is something important for the user experience and yeah, you are. Yeah, I well when when the contributor last year did it, I was so delighted. It's hard for me to express how happy I was with this change because prior to this it was a positively terrible experience to use this page, because I would have to search with the web browser and jump all over. This is a much, much better experience than we had 15 months ago. Awesome. I remember that. Okay. So, I got a proposal. So it seems like we have 10 minutes left. Do you guys want to go through what also has replied to email. Because we got some feedback. Yes, yes, I think reading Basel's comments would be really good. Yeah, I wanted to add something to that. I think from the, the mail missed something really important. I didn't mention that we'll use Gatsby for Gatsby for blogs in there. So, so should we like reply to that with that information. Oh, it should be okay but it's like do you want to take a look at the email first together. Yes. Yeah, let's let's use the 10 minutes we have to look at that email together in case there are other things the Gatsby for blogs. That's it seems like a pretty easy response but other other parts of Basel's comments may may be worth a conversation here. Yeah, should I open it. Yes, please. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, you can you don't even have to open it in mail if you want you can open in the Jenkins developers list of perfect. This is great. Yeah. So she goes through paragraph by paragraph. Yeah. Yep. Well and and his first paragraph I think they're matches with what you were saying. Right. His, his first paragraph says. Documentation and dev documentation we use and Torah for other things for for blog change logs and other static content. We can use a different thing. Yeah. Okay. For the documentation portion of the site and Torah seems like a perfect fit because it is specific specifically designed for documentation sites and features first class support. Documentation. It's been working on Java platform support. Yeah, because and Torah is a well maintained project so migrating to to that work like is like the great plan. Well and and and Torah intentionally supports version documentation sets right whereas Gatsby does not seem to support it immediately out of the box so yeah again I think this is he's agreeing with with the direction your project plan is leading. Even with the even with the Roxy Docs team as also similar get the offer less support. Yeah. The only part the only thing I was I thought was missing is that I didn't like explicitly mentioned that we will use Gatsby for the blogs. Yeah but he got it. Trust and Torah was not designed for blogs. Yep. And the ratio makes it clear that maintenance. Yeah they are and the Dan Allen explicitly said and Torah is only for version docs not for blogs. Right. Logs don't need to be I don't need to be virgin. Using enter up and Torah for anything other than a documentation site seems as this is not interesting to use case yeah. I'm maintaining Gatsby if we if we add plug in over plug in the build time increases exponentially. Like I read I read in a blog that someone was using Gatsby and for like for two years and he added so many plugins his build time was around 12 minutes which is a lot so he migrated from it. I think I think we should reply with the Gatsby will be used for blogs and for dot by ML files. So Chris would you do that or do should I write. Oh yeah you should reply even you should be a person reply. Okay, I have to reply to all right. Yes. Yeah or just use the web page to reply inside the email message you'll find a link to the Jenkins. To the posting on this course. Yeah, that one yeah. After this meeting I'll reply to him. Okay, yeah. Also my exams are here so I won't be able to do much work this week. Exams are first priority they are number one. I like what Mark said. Yeah. So we'll, so we'll start we'll start from when the coding period starts we'll start since my exams end on 27 and coding community morning ends on 28, I think. Yeah, it ends on 28. I wanted to ask something from Rajiv. Yeah. Hi Rajiv I want like for your question was like really interesting I read about friend meta somewhere when I when I was on gas we blog so like, could you explain your question in like in more simple terms so I can search it up and so I can answer you later. Yeah yeah so we have like a dog file right and in that we put all our contents so it's starting up that content we write some metadata right name. Yeah, basically meta data is a front matter. So are we going to pass the SEO related meta data for that dog. Or a dog files. Yeah I don't feel like tags or description of that adult file and those things, or maybe cover images like the like adding cover adding cover images on documentation. I don't think that is like feasible since Like just adding some metadata. I what I what I think if like currently we don't actually add anything anything in the friend meta for SEO like and Torah removes these things like from what I showed here. And like the file structure, the file is how the file looks. It just provides a description and the author according to what our ask a dog file should look like. If you are using in Torah so and also since the sky dog files are so large in number adding SEO for each and every will be like humongous task. When the bargaining will be there right then they're not telling you have a description and author would be there. Okay, got it. Yeah, I'll read I'll read something more I'll read more about front matter so like I can understand it much correctly. Yeah, I got my answer like this is good. Yeah, should we talk about like maybe not not today but later should we talk about SEO related matters. Yeah, I think we should have that conversation. Yeah, maybe in the next week not not this week. Yeah. I'll read I'll read something I'll learn something about SEO tell them. Yeah, because like we have to make plans about how to do things like how to continue the way things are done, but using different tooling. If using and Torah things can be configured differently from what they are now. Yeah, I'll check in their documentations if they have written something about SEO really SEO there. Okay. And this is like open ended like the design and the things are like open ended it will will never come to like we will be again again revising those things and improving. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's all from my side. Okay, anything from you you mean. Oh, I do have one question so in this project will we make big changes in user interface. Because I see in phase two we will like customizing the UI or styling. Personally, I like more I like I like more than you a modern user experience and the qi but I think the it will be correct if we start on that if we first configure things and customize things how they are in Jenkins dot IO. And then maybe then maybe not maybe then we then if we have time and I hope we have time we can work on user experience and UI. Yeah, I understand. Yeah, that would be the correct course so yeah. Yeah, so so my question is. So based on my understanding this project is like the migration of the current Jenkins IO, because so most of the parts will focus on will will be focused on the migration instead of the customizing the user interface. So it is just my personal experience. Yeah. Yeah, I think migrating first and then configuring the user experience will be the correct course. So like, we don't end up in a mess while if I'm proving things and migrating. But that's my personal experience, personal opinion. So any questions move and end. No, I think everything is clear. But what I was thinking since what today happened, I think we should like change our meetings to Saturday, if that is possible for everyone because from from where I commute from my college. There is so much traffic. Yeah, what's on Saturday. Oh, what about Sunday. What's home on Saturday. 8 a 20 to 20 IST on Saturday. Right. Work for me about you guys. That would work for me so roughly the same time of 24 hours later. Yeah. That that would work for me. Just 25 hours later. Okay. That would work for me. Awesome. Works for me. Okay, good. So let's change it then. Update invite later. Okay, so thank you everyone. So we'll see you next week or maybe next Thursday. Yeah. Last question, will we will we receive the updated your the time updating your email after this meeting. Yep. Yep. Sure. Sure. Okay. Thanks everyone. Bye everyone.