into, I have notes, the show, want to give a shout-out to our sponsor ExpressVPN. Why haven't you got an VPN yet?  If you guys want to join us in chat, create a free Riser Teeth account. I have my chat window up here, so I will be seeing everyone's comments, so be appropriate and love us fully. Or not, no more, no less. No more, no less. Just the appropriate amount. I wanted to also shout out to Wrestling with the Week, premiering January 18th with James Willems and Scorpio Sky. It's about wrestling. It's neat. So welcome to the show. I have notes. A show where we talk about everything or all things animation, creative, real estate, and Pedro Pascal. I am your host, and with me today is Surprise, but not Surprise, but always a good surprise, Erin Wynne. Oh yeah. Another surprise, a Big Bang Yang Surprise. And a pleasant surprise, but like the kind where you get a weighted blanket for Christmas. It's Hannah McCarthy. I want to be a weighted blanket. I like that. Yeah, it's a really good present. I never got one, but I just want to put that out there that it's probably a really great present. I'll get you one. They're so nice. They are good. You know what I started doing recently in lieu of a weighted blanket? Because I like sleeping with the weighted blanket on me, but it could get a little warm and you could like shuffle around a little. I started putting another pillow on top of the comforter by my feet so my feet feel kind of weighed down and it's really cozy. Innovation. I like it. It was like compression socks without socks. Exactly. Compression feet. How did? Upper leg, depending on how big your pillow is. Have you guys ever tried compression socks? I don't think I ever did. No. I keep getting that stage of old yet. Yeah. What do I do? It's a certain compression technology and it's supposed to help with some people get swelling on their calves and like lower kind of legs. I know like I think my mom and my I'm sure my grandparents have worn them before. They're just like very tight socks. Yeah. Yeah. The times I've heard them mentioned are like pregnancy and when you're on airplanes. Is that right? Interesting. I think. Huh. That was educational. I learned something. Even though I have like a huge question mark at the end of the book. I'll believe anything if you say it. Yeah. Same. Same. Absolutely. Life is all about confidence and saying anything with confidence and then people will just be like, I mean sure. Yeah. That's gotta be true then. Yeah. Ooh. Like I said guys, I'm checking out on at chat and we got a we got a cool cast here today. Not just us ladies. Ooh ladies. Ladies. I see a Caesars in there asking what did Pedro what about Pedro? What did I miss? Oh my gosh. Andre is in there. Hi Andre. So is Noel Wiggins. He calls us the most talented cast I've ever seen. Oh well. I like how you're shouting out the people we work with and not like the fans. That's true. Sorry guys. Also all the listeners and viewers of course. It's true. Look, I was I'm trying to find a word for it. It's like someone I see frequently, wheel for speed. Shout out to you. Yeah. The regulars. It's true. Hodglet. Hodglet. Yes. Oh I see Toa in there as well. Toa. Toa last week asked for more tips from DLR. It's pretty fun. So hi guys. How is everyone? How was your weekend? Did you do anything fun? Well it was a pretty weekend. It was a three day weekend. I bought a lot of plants. That's how I'm coping. Oh no. Just in life in general. Yeah. Not at that stage. Yes, very much. I had asked a while ago for people's recommendations on plants that I'm not likely to murder. And there's a lot of great recommendations.  I don't have a lot of natural light in my apartment. So already off to a bad start. Relatable. So trying my best. But I've got like a little section over here in my apartment that is now very green. And I like that a lot. So please send good vibes for my plants because there it's an uphill battle for them moving forward. Vibes sending the vibes away. Plant vibes.  You're going to like all your whole style is going to have changed. It's going to be one with nature baby. One end of this.  And I'm like, this is my life now. Cottagecore villain. Yes. I need that to be in some show now. I love that. I have this problem where I forget everything I've done over the weekend. Previous days before this current one, like someone's like, what did you do this weekend? And I'm like, what did I do this weekend? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I have to like, because like, I don't know about you guys, I live by my Google calendar. I have house for like many years at this point where I'm just like, also sorry, my light's flickering a little bit. I forget everything I do in days past unless it's on my calendar. But I just looked at my calendar and I happened to put stuff on it this weekend. I did some streaming with people this weekend, played some Among Us, played some Clue. A couple of weekends ago, we played Project Winter for the first time, which was really fun. I don't know if you guys like it. Yeah, I caught a little bit of that. Yeah. Yeah, me too, actually. Fun fact. You got some fans here, Barbara. A whole. You've got to watch me play. I'm nervous now. Oh God, what did I do? I just kind of like chill on the weekends. And then once the week starts, I just kind of like brain dump everything. I don't know. That's valid. Yeah, I think that is valid. Mostly like just relaxing and like vegetating. And then I've been working on a live 2D character for somebody. So it's been an interesting challenge. Yeah, I won't say who because I don't know if they want me to reveal that. But yeah, that's it. Is it a cottagecore villain? Maybe the next one. Yeah, I'm going to have to commission me to do it. I'm going to have to commission that. I love it. We can work together. Yes. Issa, how was your weekend? It was good. My SO got Persona 5 Royal. So we've been playing. He's been playing through that. And Persona games or Persona 5 specifically is kind of just your classic 100 hour games. We're going through it just like relaxing and stuff. I finished a game I previously mentioned called Dicey Dungeon. I finished the Switchport. It's really fun. I finished it, which is really great. And so now I'm playing another game that's kind of like similar to it, which my SO and I often have a lot of discussions kind of like talking about game design or what makes a game really interesting. So that's kind of the kind of stuff I look forward to just kind of like relaxing and playing on my Switch while he's playing Persona 5. So it's been nice. But I wanted to bring up that because you mentioned you live off of your Google calendar. That was me for like the last quarter of last year until I was like, fine, it's 2021. I'm going to journal again. I swear to God. So smart. Yeah. I got my got my journal. Is it like a bullet journal or like how are you how are you organizing it? It is a bullet journal. Yeah, I'm into that stuff. So I did a I hope the camera blurs it out. But just shake it really fast. Yeah, just move it around. Do some of this. Someone's going to stabilize it and try to like check for like DLR spoilers or something. But I found this cool spread that's like, oh, you can like fold it over. And it says like Saturday and Sunday and stuff. So smart. Hold it like that. Have you found it? I know we're only like two weeks in change into 2021. But have you found it helpful? Yes, I always like journaling. I think last year though, there was this, I had this interesting. What's the word I'm looking for? I guess kind of it's not I guess it's like a discussion with myself or the being introspective because quarantine. That there's like time I want to spend doing other stuff that I'm still kind of adjusting to having a significant other. So there's so many things that I did while I was single for myself that having an SO I was like, Oh, I do want to spend a lot of time with them. But that does mean I don't get to spend as much time doing these other things that brought me joy. So it was kind of like not scheduling those things out, but just giving myself that time back as well. So yeah, we've been we've talked about it and they my SO enjoys me doing my stuff. So that's so important. Yeah, for any relationship, like that was something that, you know, Trevor and I have lived together now for about two years. And before that, I'd never lived with anybody. I was like, always had my own place. I loved it. I was like, do whatever I want, eat whatever I want, by whatever I don't need no man. Not that we can't do that, you know, living with someone, but it's more of like, Oh, we want new pillows for the couch. We both have to like them. It's not but it's definitely like an adjustment in terms of wanting to spend so much time together, but also being okay, just being in the same place but not doing things together. Like it's definitely something you've got to get used to because it's it's kind of weird for us to be like, I'm going to go into the other room and do something because you're so used to when you're not like living together dating being together in the same room doing activities together constantly coexisting cohabitating cohabitating. Yeah. Yeah. And it helps when you have that rapport with someone where it's like, I'm going in another room not because I don't like you but because I like you and this works, we can be in separate places and it's fine. And it takes sometimes a little bit of getting used to that, I think, because yeah, it's it's a weird transition from going like we each can go back to our own places and then suddenly it's like, I'm going to just go in the other room. Is that a lot of people like their alone time? It's not necessarily like an insult to be like, yeah, I want to go spend some time alone playing a video game or watching the show. Yeah, totally. Especially in quarantine. Yes. Yeah. I'm going to segue. No, I don't have a smart segue is fine. Aaron, I'd like for you to talk about Blake. Oh, yeah. So our favorite cat girl. It's her birthday today. Oh, yeah. We have the pre orders for the Ninderoid is up. Oh my gosh. And I believe so cute. A t-shirt and a mug for her birthday like in the art store. Yeah. Exclusive new merch. Oh, dang. Yeah, I think it has like some like Zodiac design on it too. It's done by fan favorite Mojo Jojo. Oh, yeah. Their Twitter name. Oh, that's so cute. Yeah. She's a Capricorn. There she is. Yeah, we're having a discussion what she would be or before this. More like catricorn. Yeah. Okay, that was kind of good. Issa just stares at the camera. Oh, wow. Okay, so yes, Capricorn confirmed. Like how we just looked at the shirt before this and been like, oh, yeah, Capricorn. I think it is a full cut. Like that's got to be the cusp. I don't know what the actual Aquarius Day starts on, but it's close. It's like mid 20s, like 22nd or 25th kind of thing. Yeah, I want to call up the store description on it where they said we thought about inserting a goat joke here, like G-O-A-T, but we figured it'd be too Capricorn-y. Good job, store team. Yeah. I want to call out just related to, you called me out for my face, Hannah. There's a meeting I had with them. Oh, damn. It was, all right, it was Carrie and Miles. And I think Carrie said a pun joke and Miles laughed really hard as he normally does. I didn't. I kind of just stared at the camera like I normally do. And I mentioned, Carrie, I heard you. I just didn't laugh. I think Miles just started laughing because I was like, no, no, no, it's fine. You guys are funny. And Miles just goes, I think you guys are funny, but you need to be put in your place. You have to know there's a limit to what I will tolerate. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, man, that's amazing. I love that.  Oh, yeah, those are the real reels. Oh, yes. For sure. Real friendship is being able to bully your friends. I'm sorry. I just got so distracted by your cat. So cute. Oh, there he is. Oh, Miles doesn't focus on anything. Oh, his tail. Oh, my God. Classic. I could watch that all day. I'm sorry. So cute. No worries. Oh, my gosh. Before we started recording, I don't know if I mentioned it before on this podcast, but whenever I'm in a meeting or in this podcast, he thinks I'm talking to him. He wants attention. So he'll like wake up and like rush over to come get some pets and some loving.  Talking to my co-workers. I don't know if this will work for cats, but I saw this trend on TikTok that is so funny to me. It's people are doing it with their dogs, where the wait till their dog is like sitting on the couch with them or like right behind them.  And every video I've seen, they'll be like, here, Betsy, here, come here, Betsy. And the dog will just be like right next to them being like, are you okay? They look so confused. And it's so funny. And maybe they'll work with cats. I don't know, but I want you to try it at some point. I feel like cats are like fools.  Anyway, continue without my business. I feel like cats are smart in the dumbest ways. It's true. It's true. It's like, yeah, how to describe it. Yeah, it's very true. I love that. Dogs are so good. Cats are so good. Your cat is so good. We don't deserve it.  Everybody loves you. Oh my God. I love him. A little orange boy. Oh, so sweet. That was a good segue from Blake. Cats, they're great, aren't they? They're great. All right, now give us notes on that topic that we just talked about. We'll do it again. That's how the show works, right? Yeah, exactly. We were asking for topics earlier, and actually Hannah brought up a very interesting thing about fan fiction. So before we really go into it, I think it's common knowledge that I read fan fiction. I was a fan fiction aficionado. Yes, I was. I don't read as much fan fiction anymore. It also directly correlates to whether or not I'm in a relationship. I've been reading a lot more lately or I've been going back into it. As I said before, finding those things that I found joy in again when I was before the relationship. Put a fan pick reading on your calendar. S.O. Time to put it in my bullet journal. Yeah. So I wanted to ask if you guys read fan fiction, what was your history with fan fiction? I can start. I can, because I presented the topic. I definitely, so I was like, I still am, but I was a fandom kid. Like I grew up in fandoms online, and so fanfic was kind of just like a natural part of that. So I definitely read a ton of fanfic when I was younger, and kind of same as you. I tapered off. I feel like when I was, well, no, I definitely still read it in college. I was just very overwhelmed with workload. But I think once I had like a job as an adult, I was like, I'm going to lose my mind. So I had to focus really on work and not fandom stuff as much. But now that I'm older, I'm more into, I'm back into fandom more, and I haven't been reading fanfic as much. But this conversation that I saw that I was telling you about was what made me go, you know, I should get back into reading it because it was a really interesting discussion that I had a lot of thoughts about from having read it a lot when I was younger. So yeah. Nice.  I'm a fan of fanfic. We have similar histories. How about you, Erin? So I've got a weird, I definitely do read fanfiction, but I feel like in grade school, like being in like an enriched or AP like English class kind of killed my joy of reading. So yes, I'm very picky when it comes to what I read. I usually only read stuff based on recommendations, usually my partner because they know me very well. And I either will read all of something all at once, like even if it's like a 50 chapter long fanfic, or I just won't read it at all. And yeah, I'm very, very picky on like what it is. So I will partake occasionally, but it's definitely not like my go to in terms of like fan made contents, definitely more fan art and fan comics and whatnot. Give me pictures. Give me all the drawing. Yeah. A dabbler. Yeah, I'm a dabbler. I just like a little sprinkle, sprinkle voice. How about you, Barb? You know, I've read some fan fiction here and there. I feel like it's weird to say, but a lot of it, the majority of the fan fiction I've read has been about either me or characters I play because that is boy. Oh, funny. I stumble upon the internet or people link it to me or whatever it is. I had never really been into fan fiction as a kid, like it was never really something I knew about really. I knew about MySpace and AOL Messenger and that was pretty much it. I feel like I don't know. I just didn't have friends that were into it or wrote it or anything like that. I love it. I love the creative outlet it provides for people. For me personally, now I just get wrapped up in like the actual story itself and like letting my own mind run wild with stories that these people could go into. So I don't necessarily read what other people do, but if I really like some type of book or movie, I might try searching for some, get into a little dabble in it a little more, see what's out there. Yeah. A winky face. Whoa. Leni face. I just finished watching Bridgerton, so I'm like Oh, we talked about this and we're both talking about that on Twitter. I don't know what that is. Oh, well. It is a Victorian region. Regency. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It takes place in London for the most part. Yeah. Period piece about this wealthy family as they're like dealing with this particular season is like their first daughter is dealing with trying to find a match because as little women has probably pronounced marriage is also an economic proposal. So yeah, it's kind of like, Oh, what are the, or they definitely go more into the kind of the emotions of like, I want to marry for love, but there's also some like social, I wouldn't say commentary because everyone knows what they're talking about, but there's some social, a lot of social parties kind of a thing, costumes, really interesting colors. They think the big joke is how everyone doesn't tell, can't tell the brothers apart. Oh my God. Oh my God. They have picked three more similar looking white dudes. And I understand they're like genetics and it's like, not clones. I was like, I literally don't know which is which at this point. Yeah. The big draw Aaron BT. Dubs is that the show is essentially a soft core. This is my impression of watching Bridgerton from start until the last episode.  Like, should I am I allowed to be watching this in my own Christian home? My Christian mind. It's on Netflix. My home. It's on Netflix. Yeah. I think it's not. Is it nine episodes, something like that? It's also Shonda Rhimes show. Yeah. Yeah. And she was like Netflix, you let me show stuff that I can't get away with on Grey's Anatomy. So let's do this. Pretty much. Because that was, oh, go ahead, Barb. I was going to say it also, that show has one of the things that I love, but hate most in so many shows and movies where you're just like, if everyone were just honest with each other, spoke to each other, this would solve so many problems. Communication. It's so annoying because they even say like, why won't you just talk to me? And they go, I can't. And it's like, maybe they would understand if you did. There's a question by, I think it's ace the nerd. Important question about the show or any show really. Is it gay? Unfortunately, not enough in my opinion. Not enough. Wait, not enough.  It's like having rainbow sprinkles on top, but it doesn't really go any deeper. You think? I honestly, I thought there was going to be more. Me too. Based off one of the plot lines going on, I was like, oh, is he going to, and then unfortunately it didn't happen that way. Or if like the younger sister, I was like that would have been. Oh yeah. Yeah. That would have been it. Spoilers. Y'all are writing your own fan fiction right now. That's what I'm saying right now. Could be. Now I know my way in. I know my pathway. Bridgerton babe. Oh, seven. Daphne doesn't get with the Duke. But yeah, thanks for that Bridgerton talk. I've been wanting to talk about it. I don't have anybody to talk about Bridgerton with. Okay. No one on the RT podcast is watching that show. Unfortunately. I should make Gus watch it. You should. He'd probably love it. Yes, he might. Or he would be so passionately angered by it. He would hate watch all of it to talk about how much he doesn't like it. But you still have someone to talk about it with on the podcast. Very true. Very true. Before I go into the big role, by the way, just another note about Bridgerton is the reason why I consider it very soft core is because they don't stop. Oh, yeah.  And then, you know, it cuts to a different scene. It doesn't. I'll learn nothing, baby. Well, especially like early on in the show, there'd be some like sexy scenes and they would cut away from it. You're like, okay, like that kind of show. And then the further on in the show they get, they just keep showing more. Yep. Yeah. It's great. Highly recommended. Yeah. Go watch it if you want like a good eight hours of being like I'm not thinking which we really need in our year of 2020. It's aesthetics over everything. It's just like pretty people, interesting, interestingly, a historical costumes. Yes. It's like a bunch of very good looking people and it's just like a very like romanticized society and like all this stuff. Yeah. It's just a fun show to get lost in. Yeah. I say beautiful too because it's like it's still mostly white cast, but you know, there are some very handsome black people. One in particular who I think should be the next James Bond I think they're talking about. I've heard there's rumors that he is, and that would be impeccable casting. That would be good. So watch Bridgerton if you want to foretell the future. See where his roots are. Yep. But yeah. So just want to go into shouting out. Thank you, our first members for supporting the site. Are you guys a first member? Are you not? You should sign up. I thought you were asking us. Yes, I am. I actually am. Just know that there's always a free trial. So if you guys want to try it out, there's a lot of stuff, really good stuff to catch up on. Ruby can catch up on Ruby right now because they're about to come back. Did they come back already? No. Man, I am at February 6th, I believe. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. That's right. I believe it. So you guys can catch up on Ruby, the most recent volume of Ruby before it comes back. So there's that. Dead little roosters. That's a thing. Dead little roosters is coming. Oh my god. As if you guys don't know, DLR is, the first episode is for the public, but everything else is first only. So if you guys really want to see where this mystery goes, you guys should check that out. And really it's a very, very good, very funny mystery. So very funny. Everyone in chat is going Fert. So Fert, I appreciate this. Fert members. I feel like we're at the point where we have to permanently change the name to Fert. Yeah. I think it's been decided by the people collectively. The chat is so we have to change it. This is a democracy and this is what we're we're going to start a petition from inside, from the inside. And then it's going to change. We toppled the patriarchy and now we're coming for the first man. So we do want to wrap around to our fan fiction talk. Hannah, could I throw to you about why this came up on your radar? Yes, it came up on my radar because I follow a lot of, I don't use my Twitter very well. I don't know. I'm still not that great at Twitter. So I'm not engaged in a lot of fandom discussion, but I follow a lot of people who talk about fandom. And I saw a lot of people talking about this, like particularly egregious fan fiction take, which was to paraphrase, it was essentially saying that why would anyone who is an aspiring writer pursue, use their time for fan fiction when it's a when it's a form of the art that actively makes you a worse writer was the tape. Yes, it was basically saying that fan fact of fan fiction is a lesser form of writing. And there were a lot of people talking about that. And I think I showed you like one of my favorite tweets I saw in response to that was kind of like comparing fan fiction to an artist like keeping a sketchbook. The work in that can be very varied in terms of how much effort, energy, artistic ability is put into it. But it's a how you practice it's an avenue for you to practice. But also a lot of it can be extremely good. And it's just also a met it's also a different means of they didn't get into this, but you know, it's a different means of distribution. And for me, there's a lot of conversation around like access, you know, to how people are able to distribute their work or how they're able to access platforms to share their writing. And yeah, it was just this very interesting conversation around fan fiction that I certainly did not agree with that take. I've read extremely well written fan fiction and I've read extremely terribly written published fiction. So I'm like, there's a real there's, you know, a real mixed bag, I would say, sort of paint with a wide brush and say fan fiction is bad TM was an interesting take to me that I did not agree with. And I even mentioned to you in our early discussion that will stop ranting. But like, that to me, it's interesting a lot because there was also conversations around like romance novels recently that came back into a lot of public discussion because Stacey Abrams writes romance novels, a lot of really successful people either as a side pursuit or have come to it later in life, write romance novels, and it's almost always women and things like fan fiction and romance novels and rom-coms as films are traditionally more media that's created and consumed by women. And so that plays into it a lot. So it was just a very interesting discussion that I was curious if you guys had much experience like reading fan fiction or consuming fan fiction, and how you'd feel about that take because I saw a lot of great discourse around it and discussion around it. And I was like, what a wide brush to paint with, to say fan fiction is bad period end of story. Because yeah, that was such a spicy take just my first reading. Them going like fan fiction is a lesser form of writing. I was like, whoa! Yes, man. Like there's an argument because like you're not coming up with the characters yourself. Like what is the argument? I don't even know that they gave, yeah, that much nuance to their argument. There's been like this whole subsection of I think like creators, especially writers who have kind of like said no to fan fiction or have like kind of talked down on it. From what I remember, I'm trying to remember, correct me if I'm wrong everyone or if you've heard of this, including you chat, but like I think Anne Rice. Oh yes, she's very adamant about not wanting fan fiction. Yeah, she will like do ceases and desists on like people who are just writing fan fiction for her characters. Like long history of people who don't necessarily like that and they're published authors with like high esteem. You know, I think J.K. Rowling used to be totally okay with fan fiction until she decided to change her tune, as we all know.  Yikes, the writer for broke that mountain also is very anti-fan fiction, if I remember. Man, it's so confusing to me because like I'm not a writer, but if I were, I would be so honored and humbled if people liked the characters in the store in the plot so much that they wanted to expand on it and they wanted to like explore other avenues for these characters to explore. I don't know, like to me that's a compliment. Yeah, like you're definitely on like that side of like fan fiction is totally okay. I think Hannah, the person who you sent the Twitter thread of with that really hot take, they were saying something along the lines of, I think one part of their argument is that fan fiction is lesser because it's kind of still like, it's like, I'm thinking of it as like kind of a hierarchy thing. If you're contributing to something that's already kind of like low tier, quote unquote, and this is how I thought about it in my head, everything about, if you're contributing to something low tier, then you're just another consumer. Like, you're not really creating your own ideas, so therefore it's lesser. And that's there, I think that was part of their argument as to why fan fiction is like why they considered it that way. Oh, that was a hot take. It's so spicy, guys. It's just, oh man, I need something. Spicy. So, spicy. It's, well, I guess safe to say we're all pretty, we're all pretty great with fan fiction, we think it's a good thing. Yeah, and I think like all things, there's like all things, there's kind of the layers of moderation and expectation, right? So, like, I think there's always going to be, I saw some people in chat saying, you know, what's important is also tagging fanfics with things, making sure that I would argue there's more accessibility in fanfic than there is in mainstream or traditional publishing because many books don't come with the variety of trigger warnings that you can add to fan fiction. So, there's that which I actually think is very helpful and accessible. But I also think there's varieties of difference in, you know, I think if it's, I don't, that's such a can of worms to get into like writing about real people versus fictional people. Yeah. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of nuance there. But I do think writing about fictional worlds and fictional characters that you're really interested in, like for me, I read a lot of Marauder's era, Harry Potter, because I love the concept of the Marauders and JKR, she who must not be named, never pursued that really in any of her peripheral materials. And I was like, I would have much rather a prequel about the Marauders than Fantastic Beasts, a hot take on the limer maybe. What did I say? Yeah. And you could say it. I'm saying it. And so for me, I was like, I would much rather read about those characters and the world that I've seen a glimpse of, but don't have that much information about. And people who are really talented writers also love that as subject matter and have written these incredible stories about them. So that to me, I think to Barbara's point is like, it's really cool to get to dive into parts of worlds that don't get explored in the main, you know, kind of source material and may never get written about. But I also understand the reticence that some people and authors have about it. But I just think to say, only bad writing is fan fiction. I'm like, what are you talking about? There's garbage being printed constantly. Yeah.  Well, and I would assume it's consumed largely by women. Also bad. So like, right? Yeah.  This was like, yeah, I'm an English major beach. Like I read really great, great novels. And I've also read fanfic and I've seen the variety. You're also a creative director.  I think that's part of your job. I think about like a lot of people don't have access to the ability.  But you know, I think also, this is also maybe a spicy take. I don't think all creative pursuits have to be monetized. I don't think you always have to turn something you're passionate about into a money making avenue. And a lot of people write fan fiction because of their love of writing, their love of community, being able to share something about an IP or characters they're really interested in. And so there's this back sort of gnawing, oh god, capitalist like subtext of like, well, if you're not getting paid to do it, it's not legitimate. And it's like, maybe you just enjoy doing it. Maybe it's something people do because they like doing it. And they have a career that also fulfills them and they do this because they enjoy it. So that's I think part of it too. I do think there's this like, well, if you were really a good writer, you'd be getting paid to do it. And it's like, well, then you can be like, well, Brad, are the photos you're taking in your photography class getting you money? That means you're not a photographer, Brad. Yeah, so I don't actually know anyone named Brad. But as I say, that sounds like a familiar conversation from a very personal place with that. Maybe I do think it's I think it's you know, people can do there's ways to pursue your art or things that motivate you. And anything that gets you being creative, I would argue is extremely valuable. Because a lot of times if I'm in like a reading slump, or if I would assume I feel like you're an artist who's in an artistic slump, but you watch something you're really excited by, and you're motivated to draw fan art of it, anything that motivates you to be creative. Excellent. Amazing. We love it. You know, absolutely. Yeah, I know for me, like, not a fanfic writer, but I definitely do a lot of fan art. Yeah, for me, like, like he mentioned, like, it just gives me a reason to create because like, I get so invested in these characters as well from like other IPs and whatnot. But also like, I'm like a full time artist here, art directing. And at the end of the day, when I'm doing art in my personal time, like, I don't want to like have to sit and think that hard about like my own IPs or whatnot. So yeah, fan art is like a good way to like get that creative urge out and like not kind of be like I'm wasting my time almost. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So that's my take. It's a good take. I love fan art. I want to see fan art all the time. It makes me so happy, especially like I'm meme fan art. I love it. I'm always blown away by fan art because it's like, that took you so much time and effort and like so meticulous about the details and everything like that. I'm like, I don't put that much energy into like getting ready in the morning and you did this whole thing for me to see because you like this character that I play or like whatever it is. It's just like, oh my god, that me like that in cosplay to me are like two of the highest forms of flattery. Yeah. Yes. And agreeing with the chat, pay artists. So writers, people who make art, pay them. I'm not saying don't pay them. I'm saying people who are graphic designers, for sure do it. But also, heck yes, pay and credit artists, writers, graphic designers, all of that because it's a lot of work as someone who can't draw to save her life. I don't know how you guys do it. It's magic. It's straight up magic.   Sure. That's really going to put food on the table. Oh my gosh. Another bad take. If anyone says that to anyone you know, certainly either of you, send them to Barbara and I will be like, I will physically fight you. What's wrong with you? You want to see spicy? We'll give them. Oh, yes. The spiciest of takes, which is we will fight you, pay our friends. It'll be the kind of spice that gives you diarrhea for like another two, three days afterwards. Not the like persistent, persistent. The people want that. That's not good. It's not good. I'm like, Oh man, Hannah, you said so many good takes. I know. Like, I agree with all of them. I don't know what else to add because you said it so well. You're so good takes. I'm like trying to think too is like, what else can we really be said about like fan fiction? Because it's like, I want to, I do want to like clarify too. There is a certain point where BT dubs don't, it's how to put this, I don't know if you're trying to send fan fiction to a creator and I don't know if it's like actually legally allowed sometimes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We love fan fiction. We just are not able to read it legally. Yeah. I can go into that a little more because I've had to explain this to some people. It's always like, it's such a bummer when, you know, we meet people or people send us emails being like, Oh, I wrote an idea for Ruby or I like drew up a character that I think would be really good for red versus blue or the show or whatever it is. And like as much as we love to see you guys be creative and to see those ideas, if we then accept the idea and like take it and then look at it, enjoy it, whatever. And then later down the line, let's say there's something in one of those shows that happens to resemble or match up with something that you submitted to us. There could be this issue of like, well, did that person steal the idea from that person? And it's like a whole complicated mess. So just know that we love and support fan fiction and fan art and stuff like that. But we usually can't accept ideas and stuff like that or restricting for that reason. It's not even just interesting. I know, I know like Marvel and DC are like super strict on that too. Like, they won't look at like any sort of like pitch or anything like that.  So yeah, don't take it personally. It's literally. Yes, please. Yeah, that's what I'll say. I can't read this. Yeah. Thank you for doing it. Yeah. It's it's it's such an interesting line of like what the idea of intellectual property and like fan fiction and stuff like that, especially when you go into, I think, other countries because they might have like different laws. For example, you know, first thing I can think of is Japanese anime and manga copyright laws in Japan are wildly different. Fun fact though, I'm pretty sure a lot of people who make Dojin or Dojinji are like the fan comics and stuff that are based off of like actual like anime and manga IP. They publish them. I don't know if it's necessarily for profit because it's mostly like self published stuff. Yeah, they make it all themselves. But they're only really sold at like five, 10 American dollars, American dollars like a piece. And whether or not they profit, that's that's another question. I think when when you still when you start seeing like these huge amounts of like, I guess, returns and maybe they start eyeing, they start eyeing them a little bit more. But there's this whole culture in that country about making fan work. Yeah. And how it's like, I guess, like, I want to say accepted, but it's kind of just like commonplace, especially when you're in the fandom. So it's kind of interesting going through like artist alley in American conventions where it's like it's this common thing, something I grew up with that I think is like totally okay. But then you might have another like, you might have some cease and desist essentially, like there might be some of these that pop up. And it's just like a fan fandom fan fiction fan art. It's always it's always such an interesting thing for me to kind of wrap my head around in terms of like making it creatively. But also is it is it okay? Is it right? But then you have this other hot take of like, it's it's terrible writing. Yeah. I wanted to bring up there was a part in that thread where they called out like a couple of writers who turned from fan fiction writers to published authors, we're going to talk about Stephanie Meyer, you know, EL James 50 Shades of Grey. Is that her name? Yes, I believe so. Yeah. Yeah, they they what's Stephanie Meyer? No, I don't know. Let's go with EL James. Let's go with Cassandra Clare because she Cassandra Clare definitely was. Yeah. And they became published authors with series and they're arguably successful. And the person who did the thread went, don't talk to me about them because they're terrible writers. And I was just like, oh, kind of a thing. Oh, maybe. Blending credence. And it's just like, it bothers me so much in like the culture we're in now where people feel like if I personally don't enjoy this or don't find interest in it, it's bad. And no one should like it. Like that kind of mentality to me is so bothersome. I don't know where we lost the whole idea of like, well, this isn't for me. So I'm going to move on to find something that is and like, not spend my time and energy shitting on it and the people that like it because it's so common these days. Yeah. Yeah. Especially it's not hurting anyone. That's quite literally what I was about to say. I literally started saying, especially if it's not hurting anybody. Yeah. If it is, then that's a problem. But if it's not, to your point, yeah, it's just, it's, it's not for you and that's totally okay. Not everything is made for everybody. There's lots of stuff I've watched. Some of them are like, I'm not enjoying this. I'm going to watch something else. Yeah. I'm going to go play Overwatch. I'm not going to waste my energy. I think I've ever left a YouTube comment. Yeah. Or like anything like that. Especially if I didn't like something. Yeah. It was like, where did you get your bookcase? I'm like a grandma. I'm like, I really like your bookcase. Where's that from? Yeah. Have you ever been like, um, yeah. So this person on the show was really annoying. And they didn't contribute anything to the conversation. So I just wanted to let you know that because my opinion is really important and you need to know that for your, you know, your own sake. So thank you. I just don't get it. I just don't get it. I'm sorry to get down to negative rabbit hole. No, no, no. Triggered. I think, I think what we're, I think what we're getting at is like, let people make the things that make them happy. And like, if, if an, if an artist or a creator is making something for their own enjoyment that is hurting nobody, why do you feel like you have to qualify whether it's good or not? Because it's clearly not for you. I think because that's the bottom line of that take is that guy was looking at fanfic with a very wide lens and just going, it's bad. And the people who write it are bad. Like they're bad writers. Um, and it's like that by what, what criteria are you using? Why, if it's something you don't like, like let those people write their creative work in peace then. Um, and I, I just don't, I think it's like, especially with stuff that people are doing for their own enjoyment and to build like a community with fellow fans. It's like, let them have it. You know? So again, the barbers point, if it is not hurting anybody, if it is properly labeled, you know, it's, I'm not going to get into the legal side. I do agree. I understand there's collect for, you know, for certain people, there are concerns around who's profiting off of work. Also argue access is a big part of that. How do people get to the point where they can profit off of their work in the first place? Not everybody has access. Anyways. I do, I do want to bring up kind of one of the more complicated, I say complicated, but I think it's because there's, there's been this like a, the surgeons of people who start discussing this, um, in, uh, recent times is kind of the idea of like the, the distinction between fantasy and reality or like what you're writing in fan fiction is that what you're endorsing. Um, and I think it's a bit of, I would say a touchy subject because I think a lot of different people have different opinions on it, especially if you're, if you're thinking, uh, not to make fun or of this or anything, but if you're in the, if you're in the mindset of, what about the children? Then, uh, that's definitely a side of this topic because there is one of the biggest points of fan fiction is being able to write and express things, uh, in different ratings, so to speak. Exploring your sexuality. Yeah. Which is totally fine. Yeah. I, by insight, I wouldn't say insight joke. My, uh, fun history is I, like, I got a lot of my sexual education from fan fiction. And it was not a lot of people did. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I can't be the only one. And I'm sure a lot of people did. Like, I think there is this, there's this, uh, like, I would say, I guess, internet group coming up, um, in public spaces and public internet spaces being, like, if you're doing this, then you're endorsing it, or if you're, like, drawing it or if you're writing it.  It's kind of like the whole, the tag that appears on archive of our own, like, if you don't like it, then don't read it. Yeah. Um, and so I think that there's this, like, perception. I feel like it just needed to be said about kind of like there, there has to be this distinction about, like, if you don't like it, it's not that you have to kind of go up to that person and be like, I don't like this. I think you should change because that is, that is, that is rude. Um, let's be real. I think also there has to be a, there has to be a, hmm, I'm trying to find words because this is such a topic. Oh yeah. I threw an entire Pandora's box into this episode. It was like, let's talk about this. It's a good box. It's a good box. Tasty, spicy box. I, I feel, I just, I just want to put this out there. I, I am, I will say, I am firmly in the camp of yes, if you don't like it, you don't participate in it. I also think you should be a smart consumer that, uh, uh, let's just put a real world example. This, I might be throwing myself under a bus. If you're going to come at Belle Delphine, if you're going to come at Belle Delphine, it's like that, that, that is her brand. And she's also very strictly 18 plus. And if you're in that space, then, uh, I think those people who are there, I think they, they deserve to have their discussion about whether or not there should be like warnings of the kinds of content she comes up on. But like she also says herself as well. It's like, this is my brand. I don't know what you guys are doing. I'm very vocal about it. Yes. If you guys don't know, this is the stuff that I say I like. Well, and that's, that's something I actually really appreciate about fan fiction. When, when the tools are utilized, it is much better about self-regulating and categorizing because if people are using the tools at their disposal, you're actually getting things with tags that allow you to filter out things you don't want to interact with. Whereas you can buy a book based off of a dust jacket and have an assumption on what you're going to get. But if you haven't researched the book in advance, um, you know, you're picking it up at an airport and you're like, this could be good. There could be some real, some stuff in there. You're like, I did not sign up for this. I did not know this was going to be in this book. Um, so I totally agree. I think a lot of it is you as a consumer, especially with media online like that, you're like, what did you think you were getting yourself into when you, you knew what this was, hopefully you knew what this was going to be. Um, not with fanfic, but like you're saying for stuff like that. Yeah, I feel like, like, go ahead.  Oh, man. Like, yeah, tags, like we're not a thing or we're not used accordingly.  So yeah, straight up. I still remember what the internet used to be like back in the day where your parents were just like, never use your real first name. Don't even tell them what country you're living in. Now people are like, here's where I grew up.  Here's this. Here's my school. Here's my age. Oh, my entire house.  Oh no. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very, very different world. It is also so old. We're not that old. For the record. I don't know.  I'm sure Aaron is younger than us. I try not to do that because I'm scared. I'm the old person. I know I'm the old person at this company. Hannah. There's nothing wrong with us. Well, yes. But honestly, I feel like the, sorry, I love you guys, but like, you are the older one of the year at least.  And that's why I'm such a cat lady that I've just, I've aged very gracefully. But it doesn't change how we feel about you. You're going to be forever enchanting. All of you guys are like a fine wine aging well. Oh, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna melt like a raisin in the sun. I've worked. So this was a wonderful topic. And as much as I kind of threw myself under the bus with that Belle Dufine reference, um, I think we should call our show. We're done already. This was such a wonderful hour. Thank you, Aaron, Barbara and Hannah. You're welcome, Lisa. Thank you for having us. I hope you guys had fun. So much. We got it. We got to continue our discussion at some point. So we can talk about it. We could do, we could talk about this forever. We could. We really could. We could talk about Bridgerton forever. Oh, my God. That's Petra Pascal. We can talk about, oh my God. But they are not the video on demand to watch because someone you should watch is dead little roosters, guys. I knew I shouted out earlier, but just if you guys didn't realize Barbara and Hannah are in it. And ESA. And ESA. Everybody's on me, I guess. We're going to make a last minute cameo for you, Aaron. We're going to slip it in. We're not going to even know. The next stream to watch, according to my handy dandy chart, is Stay Zen with Kaden. We love a queen. And if you guys didn't know already, the streaming apps are also now available for Rooster Teeth, Roku, Apple TV, Xbox or Amazon Fire. Check us out. Thank you, chat for interacting with us. I had a wonderful time looking through your comments. Shoutouts to everyone, as usual. And that's it. That's our show. So much fun, you guys.


booth with Joe Gerber. My friends Rod and Chris absolutely swear by Instion and I've actually never seen these in real life so I thought I should come harass you guys. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. All right so talk to us about Instion from the beginning. What does Instion do? Instion is the most reliable affordable and scalable technology and offering of over 200 products. That does what? That connects the home. So basically we provide whether you buy it at retail or online an offering of over 200 products whether it's thermostats, light bulbs, sensors so that consumers can really complete that vision of the connected home. Much of the people in the market today are releasing a product and an app and at that rate you end up with a lot of apps and a lot of products that are disjointed. We already have the disjointed products so we've got a Nest Protect and we've got hue light bulbs. What's great is that Instion by itself provides the most reliable communicating protocol together with over 200 products so you can connect the whole home. But today we're announcing that we're a part of the Works With Nest program. So we announced today that we work with Nest, part of that program, and we're a part of the Rush Hour Rewards program. So it's a demand response program that they announced that where they work with utilities and they can send let's say an off if you opt into their program and you can allow them to control your products in the home. I missed who them is. Who is them? Nest. Oh okay okay sorry. So Nest is facilitating this Rush Hour Rewards program. It's a great program where if you opt into it you want to save money on utility bills. They work with utilities and you allow them at peak times to shut off devices and you get credits on utility bill. Yeah I don't know about that one but what is HomeKit? I see that up there. Apple's HomeKit, right? So today we're announcing that we are working with HomeKit. It's been in the press before but we're thrilled to be able to show you our applications and bridge today. It's the first time anybody's ever seen the applications and devices a part of HomeKit. So my understanding is that HomeKit is supposed to allow us to have one central place where we can manage disparate tools from other companies to manage our home. Absolutely. So the HomeKit platform allows developers to create applications and to bring their hardware into that platform so that as a consumer what do you care about? Well you want to press a button and have the light go on, right? You want it to be very simple and very reliable. So what the HomeKit platform does is it allows for different products from different companies to all work together. But what we bring to it is an application. So these are screenshots of our application that not only work with our products but also work with all HomeKit products. So when you create an application for HomeKit we've decided that we work with all of our products but also with the other HomeKit products. So you're extending your API out to the other HomeKit partners? So by working with HomeKit and coding. Give me a real life example. A real life example is that you have a Chamberlain garage door opener that's a part of the HomeKit platform. By downloading our app you can have that Chamberlain garage door opener work with our bulbs and our thermostats and our leak sensors. Or you can have an August lock installed in your front door and instead of installing the August lock app you can install our app and have that August lock work with your Chamberlain garage door opener and your August lock and our products. Now I'm starting to get it. Yeah what standard are you working off of? So what we do is HomeKit is a Wi-Fi enabled platform but with our bridge which is here. This is a HomeKit bridge. What we do is we bridge the HomeKit platform to our products. So what that means is as a consumer you don't care. You download an app. You saw my ice-glace over just now didn't you? I did. To you what do you care about? You download a free app and you just buy products and you want them to work. So what happens is you download the app and you install let's say an August lock okay and then you decide you're going to install an Instian leak sensor and it's fine because you can control both with the Instian app. Okay well this sounds hang on. The bridge has radios to talk to all the different devices. It talks to all Instian products and because the other products talk to HomeKit to the consumer it doesn't matter. All right that sounds very cool. I really appreciate your time today good luck Djo. Thank you very much.


Sec. F. Chuck Hagel spoke about the fiscal year 15 budget at a Pentagon press conference Monday afternoon. The budget is expected to cut more than $75 billion from the DOD over the next two years. The spending levels proposed under the President's budget plan would also enable the Navy to maintain 11 carrier strike groups. However, we will have to make a final decision on the future of the George Washington aircraft carrier in the 2016 budget submission. If the sequestration spending levels remain in place in fiscal year 2016, she would need to be retired before her scheduled nuclear refueling and overhaul. View the press conference and read more about the proposed budget cuts at Defense.gov. From the Defense Media Activity, I'm Petty Officer Tony Rosa.


SEGA DRUNK! Welcome to another edition of Where the Hell Is This Game Been and Why Haven't I Heard Of It Before. This time it's Flink for Sega Mega Drive. Its release was scheduled for Sega Genesis in North America, but it was cancelled. Sega CD did eventually get this one here, which I'll get to a bit later. But this is your standard 2D platformer.   The visuals here are incredible, the sprite work, the colors, the scaling, the deep backgrounds, the boss sprites. Check out this level here where you're bouncing on lily pads trying to stay above water while serpents fly in from the horizon with fish jumping up trying to get you. It is really tough, especially when you're distracted by the impressively smooth scaling on the serpents. And have I mentioned this game is freaking gorgeous looking? I can't get over that this is a Mega Drive game. So what is he hanging off of here?  Moving on. The story is boiler prayed adventure stuff, Imagica Island was peaceful and happy until an evil wizard called Wicked Wainwright, no not that Wainwright, shows up and captures the 4 Wisemen of Imagica to take control of the island and of course since it's an adventure game there's crystals involved, why wouldn't there be? Blink must recover the crystals which would unlock a gateway to Wainwright Strike Zone I mean Lair, where they would fight in a final showdown. But yeah as I said earlier this is your standard platformer and once you get past the visuals and the music for that matter some people might be turned off by how basic this game is at its core. It really is just a bigger, slower Mario clone at first and the controls are the usual stuff. A performs actions, B is jump and C performs spells. The thing that's a little irritating is that you can't just press A to pick stuff up, you have to press A and down. Also your forward movement is tricky to get used to as well because your speed is based on if you're moving uphill or downhill.  What helps set Flink apart though is that you can create spells using a combination of 3 different items you collect throughout the game and the spell system is regulated by a magic meter in the upper left. You collect feathers, rings, leaves and other stuff, head to the menu and combine them to create up to 7 different spells like bombs, lightning, creating platforms or even summoning a demon. You can also create keys to unlock certain treasure chests that can't otherwise be opened. This aspect of the game isn't that much in depth but it is a nice addition to what is otherwise very dry gameplay. As I said earlier, Flink was only released for the Mega Drive. North America didn't get this game until it was released for Sega CD where it was called The Misadventures of Flink. But what's strange is that the two versions are nearly identical outside of the obvious upgrade in the music department but there's hardly any changes in the game's visuals at all. This was also ported to the Amiga 32 for what it's worth. So yeah, Flink is an interesting play through if only because when's the last time you saw a 16 bit Sega game that looked as good. It's kind of funny how at the time this game got average reviews and derided the visuals for being too cutesy but now in 2018 we're far enough away from that time that we can admire the fantastic pixel art and shading and scaling for what it is. Yeah, the gameplay is very derivative and a bit slow and clunky but it is still a worthwhile play through even if you have to emulate this one.


cross-building talk and please welcome to the presenters of today. It's really not going to be that good. Okay so today we have an exciting all-day session of cross-building multi-arch and arm stuff. It's gonna be great. So I get to start. So the idea is we'll have a talk now where I basically present what's the current state of affairs and what works and what doesn't and how to use the all this marvelous new tech which kind of works and then the next session I want to talk about some of the things that are still broken and what exactly we think we should be doing about it. There's lots of things we could do and there's a question of how much extra work to impose on other maintainers what we think we can get away with and so on. So I'll just tell you a bit about how we got to where we are and the current infrastructure that's been built to give us some idea of what works and what doesn't. How the new multi-arch cross-building works as opposed to the old cross-building ways of doing things and some details about the mechanisms involved. All the things which still don't work and why where we've got to and then there's a kind of sub-talk which is basically Johannes Shower's bootstrapping work. So technically bootstrapping is separate from cross-building except that in practice it isn't so they go together quite well. So for those of you how many people here know all about this already? About half. Okay so we always have to have this at the beginning because the terminology is incredibly confusing and anybody who hasn't done a lot of it will be confused. So this is the GNU terminology for build machines and host machines and target machines. So when we say host we don't mean the machine you're building on we mean the thing you're building for. When we say build we mean the thing you're building on not the thing you're building for. Obvious isn't it? And target you only use when talking about compilers which build code for a particular thing but can build it on another architecture. So most of this is all about build and host. Host is what you're building for build is what you're building on. So there has been cross-building support in Debian for many years. Roman Hodec started Deep Package Cross in 1997 which was a horrible hacky script kind of worked and that's been developed by various people who've taken an interest over the intervening 15 years and we still need it although much of what it does is becoming irrelevant. And Debian has been providing cross-toolchains for many years and that's still the place to get tool chains that work on Debian. The major other part apart from actually having a cross compiler is being able to install the build dependencies in a cross aware fashion and apt cross was the first tool for doing that some time ago. I wrote a shell script and Neil made it into some proper software. That had various issues. It's complicated and it mostly broke so we've had various other attempts since Xapt is a much simpler approach to the same problem. PD build cross is a mechanism for wrapping that in a charoute and building things. Meanwhile over in Ubuntu land Colin Watson wrote Chromios build because they needed a way of cross building Chromium OS and that got later renamed to Xdeb which is actually quite a useful tool for installing dependencies and cross building things using the Deep Package Cross mechanism. Yeah, I guess I should there's the time to mention that what Deep Package Cross does is takes libraries from the host architecture, the other architecture and then mangles all the files around to different paths so that the cross tools can find them and you can install them on your build architecture and that's how we've been doing cross compiling for the last 15 years. More recently, Lennaro started doing work on this. That's who's paying me to do this so thank them for progress. So there's a set of cross tool chains in which are now in Ubuntu which work pretty well but are built in a kind of ugly way. The details are not nice. And the last year I've set up a cross build demon because I got very bored of building things and trying things and seeing if it worked and then building them again to see if they work today. So I'll show you that in a moment. More recently since Multiarch became available we can now do much cleverer things. The system is a lot more reliable in terms of installing cross dependencies. So S build now understands how to do that. So it's now trivial to just say S build something in a cross way and in principle that should just work. And most recently, Tybalt Gurka has been working on multiarch cross tool chains which are built using multiarch as well as which can build things using multiarch. I'll explain the difference in a bit. So in order to see what works and what doesn't, we have a cross build demon. It's online as the URL. So you can go there. That is currently building all of stable and quantal, not all of, sorry, about 300 packages of. And that gives us a pretty good idea of where we're at. Just to explain how this works, this is actually useful outside the cross build concept. At the moment, as many of you have probably discovered, it's hard to set up build these and it really shouldn't be. Lots of people could use one for all sorts of reasons. So because the official Debian build infrastructure is incredibly complicated and hard to install, I didn't use that. It's repre pro does the repository part.  But if all you wanted to do was build some stuff for a distro or maybe a couple of suites in a distro, it's great. Anyone can understand how to configure it. You just install it and it works. I've hacked it about a bit so it understands cross building. That's not upstream yet. And that just uses S build to do all the hard work which does understand cross building. So it's fairly simple. You pull stuff from the upstream archive. I've got a filter set to just do the 300 packages we care about for now. Source packages, that is. Then repre pro has a handy thing called build needing which basically says how many binaries are out of date in comparison to the sources I've got.  And you just feed that into rebuild D which then churns through them all. And the output of S build goes into repre pro. And it will run around in circles until they're all done. This is kind of tied together. All the little green bits are horrible cron jobs and scripty foo which isn't very nice. I've started an X builder package which contains the kind of glue bits. And that will ideally one day just be something you can just say kind of apt to get installed build D and you'll get something fairly simple which works. That will be nice. We're not quite there yet but it's reasonably usable. And that build D sync logs thing at the end. This is all running on my machine at work at the moment.  If anyone's got their browsers up you can have a look at the pretty statistics. It's quite nice. I should have shown a picture on here. So some statistics. As you can see they're not great. So this kind of 99 packages we're looking at here is basically the debut strap set. What you need for a minimal system. And as you can see we got to nearly half of it working in precise before we stopped fiddling with that. And then broke everything again. So Ubuntu does better because more things have been multi arched basically. There's a lot of basic tools in Debian which still don't say I'm multi arch foreign which is code for the right thing will be installed. So as you can see we get 65 dependency failures out of those 99 which basically means I couldn't install the dependencies. I didn't even try and build it. These bugs are astonishing easy to fix. It's a one line patch for every package that needs fixing. Just go and fix them all. As you can see there's quite a lot of stuff that would build if its dependencies were installable. So if anyone's enthused to help with this it's very easy quite rewarding. Fixed that was easy. I'd love some help because it takes ages. So if you want to build things you need a tool chain. That's the easy part. You also need to be able to install the build dependencies. So the point about this is you need the libraries for the host architecture but you need the tools for the build architecture so that they'll run on the build machine. So you want a version of Intel tool or lib tool or auto comp for whatever that runs on the build machine whereas you want lib foo this that and the other for the host architecture. And this has always been historically problematic but multi arch essentially marks which is which for us and we can use that information to just tell apps to install the stuff. There are some exceptions to what multi arch says which we mark in the build dependency headers and I'll show you the exciting table for that in a bit. Deep package cross. So the other thing you need is the stuff where you can't run tests during the build because it's the wrong architecture. You need to cache the answers somehow. And auto comp has a nice mechanism that's worked for at least a decade that does this and deep package cross supports that. The other thing is avoiding running tests which you can't run because it's the wrong architecture either because you'll get the wrong answer or you simply can't run the test. So multi arch tool chains. Now when we say that we mean two different things need to be clear about which is which. So there's the tool chain understanding the new multi arch paths as opposed to the old sys root style lib to lib doer paths. So basically where it looks for headers and libraries. I'm not going to read the list out but we used to look in user triplet blah and now we don't do that anymore. The other half is does the tool chain itself use the multi arch mechanisms to depend on libraries. So your arm cross tool chain depends on an arm lib see. And historically we used to take that mungid about with deep package cross build against it and generate a package called arm l cross lib see arm l cross. There's no need to do that anymore. We can just say install lib see colon arm l and use that seems to me that's how it should work. And that is the work that to bolt has basically just done as part of a G sock project over the last few weeks. That's working. Basically we tested it yesterday as far as we can tell it works. There's some ifs and buts and a very long argument about lib stud C plus plus dev we have for most of yesterday. But once that sorted. So those are already available in a repository at should have stuck the URL in here mdebian.org twiddle tib g and you can try them out. Do please tell us if you find anything bust about that tool chain that will become I hope the default mdebian tool chain. And the advantage of building it that way is that it can be built by an auto builder within the archive. The old way building tool chains is special and there's no way the auto builders would ever really do that. Because it depended on things from other architectures until multi-hatch we had no mechanism for specifying that. So these new tool chains should be something which will eventually end up in standard archive. That is the goal during wheezy plus one. But we've managed to sneak a little bit into deep package such that these cross architecture dependencies will work in wheezy. So you will be able to use these cross compilers before they're actually official and kosher. The auto caching mechanism. So this is just how it works.  Cross config dot cash for the generic stuff and cross config dot arch for things which are specific.  And then lots of I don't know what GL is. Some library or other does it have this function or not. Where auto comp would normally run a little compile a little program run a test and see if it worked. If it can't do that we just ask it. Now the problem with this information of course is that it can go out of date if nobody's maintaining it. But by having a centralized list it should be easy to keep it right. And in general this mechanism works just fine. You'll find you can cross build a lot of stuff and it appears to have worked. But in fact for example if you haven't got this right you'll get no job control in your bash. So you know it works but job controls quite handy. There are quite a lot of variables not set in here that probably should be. You need to go through builds and find out what's actually broken. So one thing in the last couple of years of cross building work I have cross built an awful lot of stuff. I have tested the very little of it actually works. Once we're at a stage where you can build a whole image we will need to do a lot more testing to prove that the stuff we're cross building is in fact churning out things that work properly. And if anyone's interested in that we have a load of ideas and nobody's done any of the work needed. You could compare the elf layouts and see whether you got the same parts and check for bits that are accidentally parts of foreign architectures and so on. So we have all the core pieces but to make this work smoothly within debut and you need a whole load of extra bits. So we have build essential for building things which ensures that you have a compiler and make and the whole load of basic tools that you won't get anywhere without. We need the same concept for cross building to ensure that you have a cross compiler for this architecture and across libc and across libc++ and cross package config and so on. So for a long time the set of packages you needed to cross build in Ubuntu and Debian has been slightly different because the tool chains are coming from different sources and slightly different names are used. And that's very annoying for a package like S build that just wants to be able to say install me the cross stuff please. So S build now installs build essential arch name and expect that to be present and to gloss over any differences between distros. And obviously if you're using this for your own work you can just provide your own cross build arch which will say you know if you're the C lang weirdo then you can just say I need C lang for my cross builds. Some packages exist in Patrick McDermott's repository. They're not anywhere very useful yet. They will be soon. It's trivial to make. It just depends on six things. The other problem is that because of the way the GCC defaults mechanism works if you install a tool chain you don't actually get a command on the new API GCC. So you only get on the API GCC version. So every single auto contest will fail and say you have no compiler. I can't compile anything. Technically it's correct. So there has to be a cross GCC defaults package or something that provides that link. So you can just make it yourself. And one of the questions for later is which package should provide that link. Exactly. I have wondered about this and I'm not quite sure. The tool chain people think it should be a GCC cross defaults package and they're probably right. But at the moment you just don't get one on the Debbie and stuff and it doesn't work. Cross package config is perfectly capable of doing cross stuff. But you have to call it in the right way by calling it as triplet package config. So it knows which paths to use when looking things up. Otherwise it will look up your host libraries instead of your build libraries instead of your host libraries. Again there's a question of where should. So there's a wrapper in the package config package which you just need to call as triplet package config. And again the question is where do all those links come from? Which package provides them? Because you get one per architecture. So it's a package per architecture containing a link. And you go. But I haven't thought of a better way. And this problem will apply to quite a lot of tools. Anything which does architecture dependent work needs to be called as triplet tool is the only way to make everything work properly everywhere. And the kind of question is where are we going to produce all these useless tiny packages from? So multiarch cross dependencies and how it actually works. There's this annoying auto convention that you don't do it for the native version. You don't call x86 underscore 64 Linux GNU GCC every time you run GCC. That would be lovely. That would improve my life dramatically. I wouldn't have thousands and thousands of if natively building run GCC otherwise run triplet GCC. The triplet GCC that's not necessarily an auto conf default is probably just that the auto confs are very old. A lot of the auto conf rebuilds and things like that and the auto recon a lot of that work will actually allow the triplet to work even with a native completion. So yeah, there's a lot of places where you could always call triplet something and it worked. That would make things more symmetric. And of course the whole point about multiarch is that it's nice and symmetric. And that's one of the pieces that's missing. So yes. So for people who haven't been following multiarch in detail, it's another fine example of confusing terminology. Packages can be labeled as one of three things. If they're multiarch same, sorry? Four things, including nothing, you mean? Okay, yes. You can say nothing and generally things will behave as they did before or correctly. If you want things to be co-installable where things in practice is usually libraries, so if you want to be able to install the build version and the host version side by side, you need to mark the multiarch same and make sure that none of the files that are different have the same file name. In general, that's a matter of putting libraries in user and then you can do that with a libsdriplet. Anything which you just want to run and it doesn't matter what architecture it is, you just need it to work, so make or Intel tool or orc, all that stuff, that's a multiarch foreign package. And the main reason most of it doesn't work at the moment is because an awful lot of things that are tools like that are not working, so it tries to install the host arch version and then fails to run it. There are some things which can be either. Get text is actually the most common example, things which contain both a library you link against and a tool you run and it depends on the package you're trying to build, which of those two functions it wanted. So multiarch can't tell us which we want, it just says you can do either of these things and you need to specify in your dependencies which you want. That's basically it. So to use this, all you have to do is add the foreign architecture you wish to build and now you can do up get build depth dash a architecture package and that should install the build dependencies. Quite a lot of the time it doesn't, but when it works it's incredibly cool. This is this scary table of exactly what happens depending on what you specified in your build dependency and what the multiarch field says and the any and native are the exception mechanisms for saying I wanted the opposite of the default basically and there's a set of things which are simply not allowed to have that's wrong. It's a little bit confusing, mostly it only apt people need to worry about this. There is an interesting point about the multiarch foreign. There's about a thousand tools that will be useful for but in fact as Steve has worked out over there, we could just fix apt so that for build dependencies it goes well if it's an architecture all package it's almost certainly effectively multiarch foreign so let's just assume that. Now we don't do that for normal dependencies because that will be the opposite of the existing behavior and everything will blow up. We could change it in the future but we can't do it now. So unless anyone objects violently we should probably just do that and loads of stuff will start working. We have to argue with the deep package people a bit which is a pending argument but unless someone can come up with a reason why we shouldn't we should probably try and push that. It's a bit late for Weezy I guess sadly. Transitive build dependencies this is something you'll notice if you're maintaining any packages that have a kind of a version less library dependency which actually depends on a particular version of the library that we're currently making the default. There's used to generally LibDB and dev used to be an arch all package and the problem is that that breaks the multiarch architecture chain because it now doesn't know which architecture version of the library you wanted so we need to make LibDB dev any so that it then depends on a corresponding architecture version of the actual library. So there's quite a few of those that are bust but I don't know maybe we fixed most of them by now but it's not entirely obvious if you haven't thought about this for quite a long time how that should work so I thought I'd put it in. Things that don't work. Running wrong architecture tools so quite a lot of builds will try and run something they just built and of course when you're cross building that doesn't work. We should stop them doing that that's fine except when they do something really important and life gets harder so quite a lot of things use help to man for example which is extremely annoying if you're a cross builder all it does is run the package to get the help output and then put it in the man page seems perfectly reasonable except we can't do that. Now that one doesn't matter much you can just skip it and you don't get a man page buff but then you're doing otherwise the build just fails or you can use QEMU so QEMU can gloss over a lot of the failures I'm about to go through which is great if you've got one but for example for the new arm64 bootstrap which I'm currently doing there is no QEMU there will not be a QEMU for some time that doesn't help us at all so I'm I'd like to fix as much as we can without depending on QEMU but it's trivial for you to make your cross build essential churrut have QEMU support as well at which point a whole load of failures will just kind of get glossed over and mostly work. Config scripts loads of packages contain a naff little config script which tells you how it was built that's great until you're trying to cross build things at which point you get the wrong answers. The fix for most of these is to persuade the people to use package config instead because package config is declarative and it just works in a cross context. All these things don't and there's interesting questions TCL config is a question of where that should live in multi-arch world that's one of the other things to get clear later. Some packages don't cross install so libraries which run some kind of helper to register plugins or something when you install the wrong architecture version of it it runs its post int and explodes and that's very annoying because you only wanted it for the headers or to link against it you couldn't care less about the stupid plug-in thing so we fixed libglib by basically just saying don't care if it fails. Now I don't know if there are packages where these scripts are important and you'd really want the package installed to fail when it's done natively in which case we need a bit of if I'm doing this natively then can bitch otherwise just it's all right doesn't matter. There aren't loads I went through the list of 300 packages there's the only five I found. They need fixing. There are tools which are architecture dependent. So char a path is a thing for editing the R path in binaries you just built and it is used in reasonable number of builds and the problem is it needs to know about the architecture that it's fiddling with the elf headers in in order to do the right thing and it assumes it's just being done natively at the moment so that always fails and practice we can just not do it. I don't know if it ever matters. I'd like to hope not because we don't like our path anyway. Object introspection is a much bigger problem that does scary stuff with binaries to look at the object interfaces and generate XML foo for I don't know what the hell these people do but it's used a lot at the moment we've been able to just not run it and nothing died but I really don't think that's going to work for long. The output it produces is architecture specific and the binaries it scans are done in architecture specific way gloss over with QEMU I don't know really I think you need a cross object introspector but I need someone who will explain what it does and why and how hard it might be to make a cross one and some help will be great on that.  There are some cross build package guidelines where we started writing down you know things to do and things to not do. In general if you now there's a handy little d-package since some fairly recent version of d-package there's a little header thing to save you put in the boilerplate that's in under the packages in yourself which sets the multi-arch variables and the host and the build variables you just include that and you'll have the variables you need and if you use package config and auto tools or CMake I build systems that actually work generally things will be sorted out for you and debhelper actually all of these things generally will do the right stuff if you do anything clever it gets harder there's also there's another wiki page Peter Pierce wrote which contains a lot of useful info like a description of the object introspection problem so I haven't got time to go through all these slides because there's quite a lot of it it's very interesting but I just give you a flavor of what we're doing for the bootstrapping stuff so there's a thing called libdose which is what the Debian weather thing is done with by Pietro Abato for how much of the it's basically OCaml tools for examining dependency relationship foo and statistical it's all really scary stuff but we can use it to say in order to build this what do I need and what does the network look like and you can just download these tools and try them out so we have a tool to examine the build system let's get this right source packages that are required to be cross-compiled from minimum build system yes so how many things do I need to build in order to build this set of packages and also checking whether the packages sources binary packages actually match up because it turns out they don't in on the Eric or quantal but we seem to get it right in Debian and the problem is that it blows up the tools if you've got binary that there isn't a corresponding source for it so as well I can never build that I'm screwed so the thing about bootstrapping is you've always got to cross build something because you've got a brand new machine with no software for it you can't do anything until you've got essentially build essential so you need to get yourself a tool chain and a make and an orc and a said and various other bits and bobs so there's always some set of stuff you've got to cross build and there's an interesting question of how much of it you cross build before you go now I've got enough to call this a real useful computer and now I can start natively building documentation packages are interesting because there's lots of those you know damn I need tech and they're gonna cross build tech so these tools will let you do analysis to say how many packages do I need to cross build before I can kind of swap over here's some statistics how many things are required how many things are essential as twice as much required stuff in Ubuntu I didn't know that these tools are really quite interesting somewhere in here was the so yes reduced this so in practice if you're running in a song on stable there's 38,000 binary packages and 18,000 source packages really really slow takes like three and a half hours to do an analysis so pretty much the first thing he did after using it for five minutes was wrote this which basically says make me a reduced set so the default reduced set is essential and required and you can add a few packages and say and I also want this this and this and then it will give you a list of how many source packages and binary packages that is and make a packages set of it and then you can do your analysis on that which speeds things up by order of magnitude so that is the set of stuff which can be built from itself basically so yes here's some numbers there's lots of packages in Debian we knew that a basic required and important set turns out to be 645 source packages which is slightly bigger than I expected and it's possible that these tools don't actually work right yet they are brand new this we discovered this last week but it's quite fun to play with what else have we got that's worthy of no yes so there's the point it takes three and half hours nearly four hours to analyze the whole thing or 12 minutes to analyze the sensible size set and this is for analyzing how many things do I have to cross build in order to be able to build the rest of it so for example for that sort of 2,400 odd packages in the required essential set you need to cross build 55 things and unstable anyhow doesn't sound too bad but the bar that was some slightly different analysis where it turned out you needed to cross 158 things so that's the kind of size of stuff we need to do before to effectively have achieved a bootstrap and be able to work on the native machine afterwards just to clarify you cross build 158 packages and that gives you a big enough set to natively compile the rest that's right this is for bootstrapping a new architecture that's correct so there's now a kind of interactive thing you can push little buttons and say what happens if I try and do this package what does it depend on download it and have a play and get dot pictures most of the rest of this you don't care about yeah so we can generate some pretty pictures showing classic dependency cycles so the part of this is not finished is the analysis of the dependency cycles which need breaking so we can now find them or at least some of them and we need to add the information about stage builds to say I can build this package without the database part I don't care in order to make this linear so that is being worked on for the rest of GSOC and we hope we will have something which can actually run through a bootstrap of say the first hundred odd packages assuming they all cross build haha so yes that's my time up and here's a little bit of thank you very much to people for helping out because I haven't done most of this work other people have done most of this work and I just hassle people so yes it's always dangerous listing names but all those people have definitely been helpful others have to I'm sure I think that's all for now and so for people who are having interest in this subject or thought any of that was relevant we'll be spending another hour or so I have a list of I mentioned some of the things there's a few others what do we think we should be doing about x y and z which packages should be providing what to what degree do we assume QEMU and so on yeah thank you much