Welcome to the fourth episode of Decolonizing Dramatogy Geta Makers from Africa in Conversation. My name is Tywa Fulabi, I'm the curator of the series and I'm really excited to be having today's at this conversation with two amazing theater scholars, theater scholars, practitioners, director, playwrights from, one is from Wakadugupo Bokina Faso and Charles. His work has taken him to different places, including Switzerland, Czech Republic, Japan and some other part of the work. I'm also excited that Karishma is with us, a theater scholar, well, a boarding scholar, like she always referred to herself, practitioner, director, producer and really a friend and a sister. She's good to have Karishma with us today and both of them are going to talk about themselves and about their work specifically. I want to say thank you to Howround for the opportunity to get this going. Thanks to Tier, the background there, to Vijay and everybody in Howround. Special thanks to Brendan, at SIFWORD and all our, you know, PACE and KTM International, Pan-African Creative Exchange and the University of Regina, who are partners in bringing all of this together. Special thanks to Sariqa, who's there doing her thing, interpreting for us, to Billy, interpreting for us there too and of course to John, the Baptist translator from French to English and English to French with Charles there in Burkina Faso. So I'd like to start today this conversation with this question. I'd like both of you to really introduce yourself, your practice, your work and its connection to dramaturgy. I can ask Karishma to start and then Karishma pass it on to Charles. Over to you, Karishma. Thank you, Tywo, for the introduction and it's so, so humbling to be able to be a panelist. So it's nice to be back on Howround and Charles to be sharing the space with you. I always love this question about dramaturgy because, well, to tell you a little bit about myself, I am a director and a producer of Performing Arts and I'm currently pursuing my PhD in the same. But dramaturgy for me as a producer has really influenced the decisions that I make and the way in which, you know, performance or I understand performance in this in the global landscape, not only in the rehearsal room, but it's larger implications. And so my work is really focused on and we can dive deeper into this later, but my work is focused on being able to bring contemporary African works and people to the global landscape and the forefront of, you know, the performing arts internationally and vice versa to be able to expose international audiences to our work and our audiences to international work. That's the short form. So Charles, over to you. I really go in French. So, thank you very much. Thank you for sharing the space of conversation with Karisma. Thank you to Taio Alphalabi for this initiative. Thank you to Taio Alphalabi for this initiative. The question of dramaturgy is the foundation of the work of theater of anyone. Anyone understand theater from his comprehension of dramaturgy? I don't believe that there is a universal dramaturgy as a universal method of mathematical. For me, this dramaturgy is... Dramaturgy is a question to resolve according to the project we wish I have to do. That's all. Okay, thank you. I'm going to come back to Karisma because what's interesting here in terms of bringing contemporary African work and people to the global space and vice versa, it's an interesting one. My question is how does dramaturgy help you do that? If it does. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I think our dramaturgy is often seen within, as a director, you look at dramaturgy to be able to contextualize the work that you are directing or the work that you are making happen. And that includes simple questions like, okay, so if this performance is set in the 90s, I should make sure my set or my costume decisions are appropriate to the 90s. And having a dramaturgy in the space helps you ask such critical questions. Also, the same is applicable for when there's a new plane development, questions about plot lines, structure, et cetera, are answered by the dramaturgy. Now, thinking about it in the largest landscape, what are the ethics of performance? What are the ethics of being able to bring an African performer to an American audience within X, Y, and Z context? That to me is the dramaturgy of producing. Asking, just as a director, I would ask key questions. As a dramaturge in a rehearsal room, I would ask key questions about why this plot event leads to this action or what is the motivation for this character or how they addressed during this time. These questions are important to explore when curating or when bringing audiences to watch a piece of work. We are living in a post-colonial reality. And I say that to say that that reality has meant that our own Africans cannot watch each other's work. I did not know if the work Charles was making before we had the opportunity to meet. But Charles is probably known internationally in Europe and in America more than I am. But why do I not know about Charles's work before the French person does or before the American person does? How are we intentional about the people that we have in the room to be able to make the work we want to happen? That's how dramaturgy has influenced my process of producing, because I'm not just thinking about how awesome it would be to produce this one piece of work for a month. I'm thinking about how will this leave an impact a hundred years down the line? What new innovation or what new idea will this introduce to our landscape a hundred years, ten years, five years down the line? You're asking big questions. We're going to come back to it because you're talking about legacy. You're talking about the ethics of performance, of location and representation and all of those realities. Part of what I mean, for example, when I'm talking about Dickel and dramaturgy, is to look at the political components, the aesthetic components, and of course the humane components. And really asking what's the role, what are we now within this culture of protest and social realities that we find ourselves?  I want to go to Charles. So when you were, and maybe Charles, you can maybe an example from one of your work. I know that you're currently preparing for a performance for a show in Fittmore. That's the Festival International Theatre, Marionette of Ouagadougou, if I still remember that for me correctly. How does dramaturgy, your own opinion, how does it help you to bring that performance to life or to whether your performing in it or your directing it, how is it helping you to think about the logic of the performance and the composition itself of that piece? I'm going to talk about the first show that is called Procedural. I will talk about my first piece of theatre which name is Procedural. Procedural, I'm based on a research. Procedural is a research. I took three texts of theatre that had nothing to do with each other. I take firstly three texts which are not three different pieces of theatre. They have nothing to do with each other, right? We have nothing to do with each other. And then, oh, sorry, I have to speak in French. Or would you like me to go to in English? Charles, whatever works for you, it's fine by me. Whatever you're comfortable with, whatever language you're comfortable with. I took three pieces of theatre and they are different but from the same author. And then he didn't write them at the same time. And I wanted to have a red line like we said in French, between them and to make one piece of theatre with that. In questioning my theatre of today in my country and in questioning what is interesting me has an artist in my middle. And then I work with the student of the school where I am teaching. And at the end we get a piece of theatre that's named Procedural. Procedural is about the procedure so to be able to get money here in Burkina Faso. I don't know in Africa in general I can say it but in Burkina Faso so to be able to create something to create a theatre activity. So then according to that work we make a lot of, if I have to talk about the process we make a lot of papers on blackboard and we write a lot of things what we would like to have, what we don't want and etc. And then at the end we are taking out a lot of things. We don't need this, we don't need this, we don't need this. We got an assume, like an assume of what we would like to see. And then how would we say it? Will we say it comically or tragically? What should be? Then it's like that step by step we went further and then at the end we got one piece of theatre. It became like an adaptation of three pieces of theatre. Interesting. Yeah, go ahead. Yes, and the second one it's much more about contemporary theatre and then the question is as you know in Burkina Faso we are facing the terrorism attacks and then inside of all these disappointments the women are the one who are most how to say face to danger. They are more affected with this and that was the story of two ladies from one day to another they lost all their family. They are alone in the world and they both meet each other in the refugee camp. What will happen? How can they talk about their story? So that was my question faced to this reality which is present. If I go directly to this story I will not bring a lot of how to say a lot of helps to that woman. I was obliged then to find another way to talk to them. Then I use physicality after when it's like the words and the physicality are fighting each order on a space of theatre so to be able to have space to breathe not even to speak, to breathe the breathing it what that woman are needing but the risk of this type of theatre in area of Burkina Faso is that it's not directly understood. So I need again then to have some we will come to that to some logical explanation so then to make people understand the story but I am asking to myself is it the story who is interesting me everybody know the story of that woman which is better for me. How can I share to people the needed question that can come with that situation of those women tomorrow and I think Charisma say something very interesting I am not thinking on a project for one month I am thinking what will happen 10 year later if I take a topic and I don't put this topic in a way that I can how to say I can speak with this topic in the way that in 10 years what I said today will not bring problems if it just to say this is good this is not good this is not my job this is the priest or the teacher my job is to bring more questions in the questions how can I increase all questions because if there is already question it means that if we look at very well I am not searching for the solution because after one question if I answer you I didn't allow you to think I have to add to your question another question and another question and another question from question to question we will find a better solution this is what I try to do with the second piece this is good both of you I'm hearing a lot of things around questioning and I'm not interested in what the drama does is to question and ask questions so maybe both of you we can take it on quickly what kind of questions do you ask that prompt you to think about the locality for Charles who is constantly thinking about the community in Bokina Faso and the experiences what are the questions that you are all asking yourself from a dramaturgical perspective that is helping you to stay focused to your vision if that makes sense at all if there is any at all one of the first questions I was wondering how to respond to a barbaric language the language barrier barbaric language by responding also in barbaric language that was the first question I don't have an answer because if I took both sides they have all rights and then how can I bring it on a stage in the way to not take any position this woman how can they stay alive after losing everything from a day to another you know how can we talk to second life for them and I am wondering for this woman if they were died wasn't good for them wasn't better for them than being alive they are crossing every day all this brutality crossing their daily life and they are not able to do something if I give a whip on to one of these women how is she going to use that Karishman what kind of question Karishman what kind of questions are you asking are you asking or is asking you as you do that as you think about the ethics of practice the dramaturgy of producing yeah that's a very deep and loaded question and I appreciate you asking what questions are asked of me because I oftentimes find myself in that situation where I'm negotiating a deal or negotiating a collaboration and thinking about what will serve the artist's best and I'm not going to be using stance on that front when it comes to collaborations in the sense that I tend to work with collaborators that understand our contribution whatever it may be whether it's a panel discussion or a full-on production that understand our contribution as equal so that the ethics of it are that this is an exchange we have something to offer you have something to offer us you know because yes we have a lot to learn there is not denying we have a lot to learn in the realm of technology we have a lot of development still to take place across across different regions I have a lot to learn but I have as much to learn as I have to offer and both of those things need to be balanced and I tend to lean towards collaborations that allow me not only to practice how to teach and practice how to share because that is something we haven't had the opportunity to do and we tie you and I often talk about how we don't know how to market ourselves for that reason even though we have so much to teach and share and also being able to be humble and take a step back and say yeah I also have a lot to learn and I can learn this from this engagement and more and more I've been thinking about the future generation and what are we leaving and I feel so grateful because the reason why I'm able to be who I am today is because of the legacies that my mentors the people that I work with who are older of a different generation have left for me I would not have even considered the acts if it wasn't for the Debra Simois of the world the Robotas of the world the Shibas of the world you know to that have laid and paved the path for me to say yeah this can be a career and this is something I want to do and how am I going to do that for my grandchildren's age artists you know what work am I going to create such that when they are doing research about the act they look back and they think yeah this is what happened in the 21st century this is the step I am going to take to continue this kind of work or to challenge it or to take it forward so those are some of the key questions that guide some of my decision making aside from asking questions allow me to say that I think one of the most important things as I keep questioning is just trust and being an active listener in whatever space is we're in because I think the value of just entering a space just to be there and not to get something out of it is also really important just be there because you've got to be there not because this could be a future collaboration it could make us do this I'm here because I respect you as an artist and I'm here to listen and we'll see what happens and nothing could come out of it except that we have a relationship now and that's what matters so question a lot but also listen is my takeaway or scaffolded response to your complicated question the complicated indeed both of you are really touching on interesting things here Karishma you're talking about what I call the logic of the exchange that the fact that the concept of equity has to be pleased when it comes to exchange the legacy work and having to know understand how to teach what to teach, how to share and things like that so in many regards both of you are also going through that idea of a drama talk as a curator as a programmer even though you're you know and that's what I mean when we come to what are those bigger things that these can offer us to think about but before we dive into that question it's a huge question I do understand especially knowing both of you are working out and you've been out I like to ask what are those dramaturgical skills that have been taught of you or that you've thought you've picked up along the line Karishma we can start with you through all this process The first one because I mentioned it earlier is listening definitely I think the heart of any sort of question asking comes from being able to listen effectively because otherwise if you don't know what you're asking questions about what value those questions have and recently I've also I've also felt like being a dramaturg in this larger curatorial landscape puts you on a constant critiquing mindset of how are we going to make this better how can we expand this what are we going to do to change our understanding but also there's a value in just seeing it as it is for the good as opposed to only looking at the critical side which I have learned to do over the last few years and I think you have to be a very good communicator because there's a very fine line between collaborating and trust and developing those relationships and also being able to communicate critical aspects or critique work without making it seem like you're shooting it down or you're putting it down so communication being able to draw connections between work between people collaboration are some big ones that come up but also just I can't emphasize just taking a step back and seeing the value and the good in the work before starting to ask these questions because every piece would always have critiques or questions that you can ask to make it better let's just appreciate that it's good first do you have any specific example of your project that you could zone into if that's something that you would love to share just to give us more context to what you're saying absolutely this is the most recent project I'm still producing or still part of the team it's called theatre for one it's a one-on-one theatre experience where we have one audience member or the audienceer experiencing one performer and it's literally theatre for one audience member and it was founded by Christine Jones they developed an online platform to have and facilitate this kind of exchange intimate exchange over COVID and we were the first six Kenyan female playwrights to write and perform five microplays, six microplays sorry for this platform and we had a wonderful run last month and that run extended into early this month and we sold out all shows which was really exciting but the reason I bring this example up is because to me this is an example of a collaboration where it really was an exchange in every centre of the word and it was transnational across three time zones across three different continents and across three different audience landscapes so there was always this question of ethics this question of how do we distribute resources what are the aspects that curatorially I can offer that the team would benefit from what can the Abu Dhabi team bring that we can benefit from was as it was as artistic as the actual artwork if you just looked at what the producing side of it looks like it's a work of art on it so on with having to set up you know there was one performance that was taking place out of somebody's bathroom and this bathroom had all of the tech set up for three weeks and I was just wondering how did this person go to pee in the middle of the day because this very lavish setup right in the bathroom being able to have that kind of technological intervention in Nairobi where it's something like this has never happened before was a big big big learning moment and a big benefit that us as Kenyans we got from our collaborators in the US and in Abu Dhabi and I think we had something to offer in that on that front as well because the work that is wonderful and aesthetically different and aesthetically pleasing that has been happening in Nairobi for years now all of a sudden has a new audience and the work shifted as a result the artists were able to offer different outreach workshops with the students at the university and also you know a wide range of audiences outside the university and there was a benefit in that exchange because now it comes from a place of understanding relationships between nations as opposed to you know a very straight cut okay well we're building a season we need somebody from Kenya it was not that it came from a place of well we have a lot of trust it came from a place of a mutual exchange and a desire to grow and learn and evolve together so that to me was the heart of the intent on all fronts and this is why it made this project super successful and one that I'm eager to see where it goes next and how you know how we continue to navigate the ethics next Interesting Relationality is very central to to in my opinion to you know practice that that's people centered not capital centered right and of course a piece of practice that constantly challenge the status quo so we're going to come back to the idea of relationality and responsibility because those are really ethics around that I feel that we need to a bigger issues subjects rather that I think that I think drama you can help us ask because it's dramatic is a game of questioning really but then before we come to that Charles over to you what whether just to just to kind of just to you know repeat the question for you what are the drama drama dramaturgical skills or that you've picked or that have been taught of you that you've taught someone as you curate this work as you perform this work as you write this work and at times as you direct this work what are those skills you know that you've been able to that you can share with us as we think about the subject of the matter yeah for me the first thing I have to do according to a topic that I have I will try to go always in the contrast way if I take a topic I will find according to that topic a lot of subjects which are which are nothing maybe directly to see with the the basic topic so and I will go into work on one of the subject that is talking on the moment to me you know if I take for example I will go with an example I take the the brutality it's a team and I will go around and to have a lot of subjects around brutality it can be wedding it can be scholar it can be I don't know metro and from to that topic I will work in the way to come back to the brutality because I believe on one thing if you go directly to a subject you will not say nothing better than what everybody knows how to bring the things poetically this is one of my question always when I am working not to jump on the topic never jump on the topic try to go further to that topic so to be able to come back and then after that I had as I thought I like to work a lot of on the contrast and then to never take what all the people are waiting that it should come this is something interesting me and I am questioning every time when I am working so then according to to this both the contrast and to try to go over what I have as topic brings me to church to make a lot of research in listening a lot of people around me I don't go directly into a library and start reading books and start asking internets I don't believe directly on that I have the right opinion of the people around me there is people who are living directly the situation for example before to come back to the library books or to internets so to be able to have more information or more knowledge on what I would like to talk if I have all that things I am sure that I could have the best questions that could improve myself or to escalate myself in the work I want to do and I am most auto critical I am never satisfied with a result for me if I got a result I am a little bit afraid because I am saying to myself it's too much easy everybody can have it how can I go to challenge again myself to make it that's all I can say thanks Charles I love the idea of privilege and lead the experience by the way your English is sound I wish my friend is the same way your English is I at least know you do I just bring you one word from French the language barrier I know the produce you know that English is not necessarily a lingua franca and I hear them speak it's always beautiful that it can even communicate so thank you for going that extra mile and thanks John for being here to help me through that process both of you are really touching on interesting ideas here and we are going to come back to the subject of the continent of Africa itself within the context of dramaturgy in the last episode I did tell for me that I put my ignorance on the table here I don't and both of you are both scholars and practitioners from the from the continent my very very uninformed opinion here is that we don't talk about the dramaturgy in that sense on the continent or maybe to even put it to stretch it further is that we don't necessarily have training as it were in dramaturgy but what I'm hearing both of you whether Karishma that is speaking of it from the perspective of a producer or a director to Charles that is talking within the context of devising the work with a community on a particular subject and all of that or even working with a scripted piece it seems to me that or maybe my question rather than to me is to ask what do we think the critical issues we need to engage with within the context of dramaturgy on the continent of Africa or how can dramaturgy as a subject help us to start digging deep into the creative process as a collective as a process of building together relationship building reciprocity and all of those things that your own all of both of you are mentioning are there ways that dramaturgy can help us think about those things from that creative standpoint but Karishma you can you can start us if that's okay with you I do want to make a comment on what you've just said about that form of training and how we never we have not necessarily received that kind of training I think I think the idea of training in dramaturgy in itself is a sort of step or a question to ask are you a dramaturge only if you are training in that or can the skills be applied and I'm asking this because many of us even producing it's not a you don't go to school to produce it just happens you just learn as a result of it's if you think let me use the example of the analogy of business in comparison to the arts you can become a businessman if you have an MBA or you can become a businessman just because you know how to sell your product well so similarly you can become an artist because you went to the best school in the world that is also a subjective thing and have an MFA degree or you can become an artist because of honing yourself with the community of people around you you know for years on end so I would not devalue that practical experience that we have on the continent because I think that is the unique thing that we have to offer that we are at the level of some folks who have trained at institutions by our practice that our life is our university and I make that point to say that this is what dramaturgy can help us see on the continent that our constant questioning of the way performance is embedded into just our way of living from the minute we wake up to the minute we sleep and then even in our dreams when our ancestors come to us just the very act of questioning that routine enhances the what we consider performance what we consider dramaturgy what we consider the art the art of living is the art of performance to me and dramaturgy can help us see that on the continent okay I'm going to revise that question for you Karishma I do value the informal education or the informal training I didn't call it education the informal training which is which is what you're referring to some of us some of us went to school to study theater but we also know that performance and theater itself is part of our daily life as African so even arguably many other cultures across the nations of the world what can dramaturgy whether formally trained or informally acquired what can it what can what can it help us to start thinking about in the creative process on the continent that that will make it to be accepted in that sense across when we're thinking across the border and I will say that for example so I will give an example rather if we think of if I want to study dramaturgy and we can go into into the conversation maybe we should not go there let's have a conversation around this first I think that's a bigger conversation around how do we translate that informal education or informal training into that can be in terms and ways that it can be accepted across the border that's a different conversation let's come back in that informal training that we have whether by mentoring or by by practicing by idea and all of that within the context of the matter what can it help us to articulate or speak about within the creative process on the continent you said something really interesting there about being accepted which I think is an interesting idea to dwell upon and this is not to complicate your question even further I think dramaturgy takes a different definition back home because it's not just about the questions we ask it's about reassessing our framework and our way of doing work so of course using our universal understanding of what dramaturgy is in our own context helps us to shift the frame frame storm so to speak frame storm new ideas and see certain events in a different context so whereas this play could have been seen as a straight play asking a certain question about what it looks like on the street can reframe how we use performance space to tell our story or by using a person that's not an actor in any sense of the word as a performer on the stage can help us reframe the power of what arts can do in a social, ethical cultural, political context and that to me especially the political part is so important especially on the continent where we've seen after independence that the art form anywhere Senegal, Guinea, Uganda just to name a few Zaire, former Zaire Tanzania that art was the carrier of political change that would not be seen that way if we aren't dramaturgs of our political history so dramaturgy doesn't in short my short answer is dramaturgy doesn't only apply to the arts how do we dramaturg our political histories to know how the arts have has affected that how do we reframe our understanding of that that is my big question thanks Karishma these are big questions that we're asking questions and looking at the frame in which we're engaging those questions so thanks for that we won't go to the question of acceptance because I think that's a bigger question let's turn because it's let's try and come back to here so that we don't we're not discursive but I think something that you kind of raised that I think it's interesting to maybe we'll come back to that idea is we are assessing our framework how do we take the idea of dramaturgy itself beyond the arts and knowing that it is in our everyday life how do we trace a narrative how do we present a narrative what questions are we asking about a narrative and experiences which goes back to Charles when he's saying that he wants to start an art piece he doesn't go to the library he starts engaging with the lead experience and actually I have a similar story an interesting story about that a couple of years ago I wanted to do a work and the first thing I did was to start looking for those that have either had had experience before or the experience in that thing before obviously understanding the ethics of that because I got challenged, I read books and I was given like 10 titles to read about that I'm like no I'm not I'm going to read because I it should complement it obviously but I was really interested in the lead experience so I'm going to come back to Charles and I'm just seeing that straight to connect what you're saying in terms of reassessing our framework and our narrative Charles over to you what do you think that dramaturgy can help us on the continent as we think about it as a subject and beyond beyond even the art itself I think you have to unmute yourself Charles I will speak in French because you're critiquing my English If you speak in English I'm going to speak in French I ask myself the question if I understand your question I ask myself if we need a dramaturgy in Africa African dramaturgy okay I don't know if you hear my question I think he has Charles can you repeat your question Charles Charles Charles can you repeat your question again No, I'm just asking if I understood the question I ask myself if we need an African dramaturgy If I understand well your question the question is if we need an African dramaturgy Maybe Karishma can help me I think Karishma has some walking knowledge of French, please go ahead Karishma Yeah, I mean from what I understand Charles is that if he understands your question correctly he's responding or demanding another question or this idea of whether or not we really truly need an African dramaturgy to help us unpack what you are asking Am I correct Charles? Yes Exactly Interesting Do you think we need one? I mean my question is not necessary that we need an African dramaturgy You just threw that back right at him threw that back right at him Back to the experience I think my question is what do you think that dramaturgy can learn from it the idea of dramaturgy itself in the creative process on the continent And how are continents Yeah, that's a great question That is a great question How do we say that? Yeah What I can say is what is the objective of our art What is my objective as an artist That's the first point What I can say Firstly, what is the finality of our art Yeah The second is who I make my theatre The second thing I do my theatre for who Thirdly I know who I make my theatre Where I make this theatre Charisma said If I know for who I do my theatre The third question is Where will I do this theatre Is that I need a scene in Italian The question Did I need a a conventional scene Where I can in the light of the moon make my theatre Can I do my theatre In African everywhere I need At the same time I don't want to I don't I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to Privilege Privilege One of these Over there Why? Because Because the first The first solution Keep Africa in the path of Antiquity Time And the other solution means that I'm looking for a European solution But I believe to something How can I use the bottle of tomatoes Or the penne I don't know How can I use the bottle of tomatoes The penne The tires The tires on the street How can I reuse them in a universe to contemporize my theatre How can I use all these things to compromise my theatre in Africa There are so many questions that I could ask a lot of questions that I can ask to myself Because I think that African countries are very different Our reality is not the reality of charisma We are a common story We have been colonized We will not be talking again of colonization The question for me today is what is the emergency The emergency Yes Because if I speak in Switzerland where I work When I see people doing theatre I don't want to criticize But I know that we have not the same emergencies I am doing a necessary theatre And this theatre cannot allow me to do some luxury theatre But I want to do extraordinary things or poetically things What is the way to do these extraordinary things How can I help people to do philosophical exercises Even if they are financially poor How can I help them to be intellectually and spiritually rich And if I bring this theatre to National Theatre of Paris How this piece of theatre in Paris can compete with the more rich theatre of Paris or Europe This is my question Sorry Taiwo I have to jump in here because I feel so resonant with some of the things that have just been shared There is this idea of wanting to have a seat at the table because the urgency of what we have to say is more or equal to everybody else that is performing around the world Of course there is the post-colonial reality but Charles I found it so resonant when you spoke about us moving away from that and thinking about how we exist as a people now and being able to understand our own realities with each other and so that is why I feel from a producing perspective it is not only having a seat at the table of some of the largest institutions in the world where we can share our work but it is also being able to say I don't know your reality Charles so I know what your reality is as a fellow African and I want to share my work with you because you must know what the reality of my life is and my context is and we can find similarities across but that will not erase our differences and it is those differences that we celebrate and that using a dramaturgy to understand those differences celebrates the diversity that we have in each of our stories so I just have to say that so thank you so much for sharing that to answer I don't like to answer positively to say it's like that that's why I am going with a lot of questions but I think you are answering to your question via the action you are doing now the action we are doing now and Charisma said first that sorry I am speaking in English so I was saying she said that maybe I am not in Czech Republic in Switzerland but here in Africa maybe it's only in Burkina Faso in my field that I know that I am not but thanks to your platform I met Charisma you understand not for me it's already something because I am learning a lot from you from her with the theatre and everything like that then how can I say more than that you have the answer by your own action also yeah and I think there is also something to be said sorry Taiwo again and then I will keep quiet but there is something to be said about how this is also on a platform that is accessible to US audiences that this conversation will be seen by the global north by Haoran and the versality of that platform doesn't mean that we are discounting or negating the importance of trans-cultural collaborations with the global north but that we are emphasizing the importance of south-south collaborations with global north countries as well this is interesting because I wonder both of you to kind of I can see the gel in already and the connection this is beautiful part of the things I said during the first episode for me and I always go back to that because that's like the first episode that kind of framed this one of the the thing, one of the reasons I'm calling for what I'm calling decolonizing dramatic is really to use a decolonial lens to understand this practice itself that first is not it's not a western idea one, two is that perhaps it can open us up to asking bigger questions about collaboration about south-to-south interaction not to south about the creative process about curation, about programming about ethics about the political the aesthetics and the humane components of what it means to be doing what we're doing in the context the socio-political, economical context of what we're doing what we're doing so going back to the idea around relationality which Karishmati talked about the other time lead the experience, the ethics of what we're doing of what we're trying to do the art form and the various art forms that we're practicing rather there are things that we as coming from this continent that we can share with the world because I think that when we come to the table yes we want to be at the table like Karishmati did say but then understanding that we're not just here to get a loan to receive a loan but we're here to give also that we have something to give from Burkina Faso for example idea kind of art forms of things that you're doing in your creative process that when you share that it might be something for us to learn from or from your curatorial practice, Karishmati your producing practice or your directorial work are there things that you want to share that you think can through this process of drama talking as help you to really fine tune that and if there is none that also fine we will not disperse the way since we're going to edit it anyway so don't worry no no no no continue thank you I think there is something to be said here about access which is that to get a seat at the table in the way that we want a seat at the table it takes ten times more effort work resilience if we were elsewhere and that needs to be recognized and that needs to be appreciated and accepted and supported by folks who might have it a little bit easier to have a seat on the table and not appreciated or accepted from a pity perspective but appreciated and accepted from a perspective how do we make that possible because once there is a seat at the table and we are able to occupy that seat magic happens I also don't devalue the relationship I also don't ignore the importance of having a globalized world where we are able to share each other's work and practices and for me from the practice of producing on the continent I think especially having curated festivals and invited works from all around the world it really fundamentally changes the way people think it changes the way people imagine relationships and ultimately if art is not about building the relationships building mutual respect what are we really doing what is the point now that is something I think that can be gleaned from us as a people because the person is the more valuable thing than what the person has materially I value you as an artist because of your craft not because of how much money you will bring along with you and once that heart to heart connection is built of it's person to person and not person to institution person to money, person to material again there's a great joy in making because it doesn't feel like it's a business deal that's the difference from making it feel like a business deal and I think that's something if we were to glean in a global world that the art space would become so much more equitable so much more empathetic so much more joyous to be in not that it's not now but it would just become even more than it is well I don't think it is in that sense right now to be honest let's not go there I think some are finding it very hard than others for sure Chaus over to you any thoughts to this question we would love to hear your thoughts in another way we would love to hear your thoughts about this question and to repeat myself again what are the things that you when you think about your own creative process in Burkina Faso and your own process of engaging with people that lead the experience questioning your practice your process and all of that what are those things that you think that we can learn from that others those that are not from Burkina Faso whether they are even in Africa or outside they can actually learn based on your dramaturgical process and learnings I will go in French I believe in something theater does not have borders that is why I can speak to Taiwo, to Charisma as I speak to my brother because we have the same language that is to speak to your brother what are your thoughts and content for what are your thoughts and what are your thoughts I believe that don't worry it's time I will answer you do you know When I answer a question to someone or to a problem, it's a question of a sensibility. One of the things that we, as a theater director, have to do is to make our work bigger. It's our sensibility that we have in relation to the different subjects or events that arise. What is our sensibility in relation to that? If our sensibility is true in relation to the subject we are facing, our questions will come back to us soon. One thing we have to develop in theater is our sensibility. If our sensibility is true, we will have a good solution for our theater. I like to use this sensibility in society as a Burkina Faso. I find it. Because, beyond the second day, the country of men is full. Because you know that the definition of Burkina Faso is the country of honest people. Integrity. We are living a particular time since the death of our great symbol Tomas Ankara. It is something in the face of everybody which is talking to us. I don't know. It's not my first goal. But I want to listen to these people by my sensibility. I think that sensibility is a base of dramaturgy in theater. If your sensibility is just the coordination of the different situations it will bring you a political form in the way that you bring things. And if your sensibility is true, you will avoid the moralization, the pretension to teach people, and the pretension to bring information. Information is for the journalists. The moral teaching is for the teacher at school. And moral is for the father at home, the priest at church, and imam at mosque. And I can use my sensibility to be neutral. In the final to ask myself the just questions. And I will not take a position or political position or economic position. And I will be independent in my spirit. I believe that if I'm independent in my spirit, the actor with what I am working will be independent. So our sensibility will join one together after there are two. In this case I make a theater, which is the reality of, which is my reality. In a part of influence exterior, which doesn't have an external influence. That's all I can say. Thanks, Charles, sensibility, thanks for that terminology. I was saying that I'm just thinking about ethics, responsibility, thinking about reciprocity, relationality, all of those things that, you know, there are words that are more like on the mainstream now. But there are really ideas and ideology that really keep us grounded in our own work, in our existence, even in various cultures on the continent. Maybe to wrap this session up, is there any question that you know, Karishma want to ask Charles or Charles want to ask Karishma. If there is any, if there is, you know, we can do that. If there is none, then both of you can just offer your last thoughts. Because I think you said you've asked a lot of questions, you've said a lot of things that I, that hopefully we can pawn down them, get back to some of them on the series, or find out avenue to talk about them in the future. So any question Karishma that you have for Charles? Not at the moment. I'm just very excited as to when I can watch your work and meet you in person and see what happens next. Great. I am also happy to hear a lot from you. It was a nice moment that we share. I think we have a lot of questions and if we go to the question, it will take another hour. Let's hope that we will have another moment. I don't know physically or I don't know another moment on other topics. And step by step we discover each other. Well, thank you. Thank you, Charles. Thank you, John the Baptist. I like us to, you know, draw the court in here. Thanks to both of you for taking the time to chat to have this conversation. Charles, wish you all the best in FITMO this year. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being able to perform with your troop and with your company. And then we shouldn't, you know, Karishma, you know, very, I know that she's having a great time with, producing theater one on one. I think that's what they call it, right? Theater for one theater for one. Thank you. Theater for one already. So looking forward to where that goes. Yeah. So, behind screams, we are talking to each other, but live, inshallah, that there should be really much more. Let's see. Let's see. Well, we have a producer already Karishma. So, international collaboration. So maybe, maybe we team up to make something up on. I just want to say thank you. Thank you to Tia, to Billy, and to Sariqa, and to the entire around.  And from my end, I just want to say thank you to all of you. Thank you. Thank you for curating such a wonderful panel. Thanks, Taiwo. You are wonderful.  Thank you. Thank you.


In any Facebook group that you go into, the posts are usually sorted by latest activity, which means a post that has a new comment gets placed towards the very top. But a lot of people don't know, you can also view any Facebook group by recent posts, which means the newest threads that have begun, which means you get to be one of the first people to comment on a new thread. So let me show you how to do that. So here is a Facebook group. And at the top of the Facebook group is, of course, where you can write something. Below that, the administrators may have added an announcement section. And then below that, you will find the posts based on the latest comments. So you can see that this one has a comment from about a minute ago. And then this one, even though it was posted yesterday, has a comment from an hour ago. Now if you go towards the top again, and again, under announcements, if there are any, or underneath, if there are no announcements, it will be under where you would post something, you would look for this little menu here that says New Activity. And by the way, this is only available as far as I know on a computer. I don't think this is available on mobile devices. So use your laptop or desktop to find this. So click on the New Activity, and then you can click on Recent Posts. Now the group will reload, and when you scroll down past where you write something and past any announcements, you will now see that the posts are, yeah, the posts are now sorted by the newest threads that were placed into the group, which means you get to be one of the first commenters into the group. And for example, this one's six hours ago and it has very few comments. So yes, I hope this will then help you to be a more interesting member of your Facebook group by being one of the first commenters, also one of the more supportive members as well. So I hope this helps and enjoy your groups.


Nyt kaikille voidaan tulla, joten minä olen rannunut Ahmia.fi search engine, ja minä olen todella rannunut paljon tor-relatioita ja käyttää tor- ja privacy. Tor on frea softwarea ja se on frea networka käyttää, jos tarvitsee privacya. Se on tuohon tor-projekt-fondation, joka on non-governmental-organisaation, joka on fundointa ja kehittää tor. Ja, tietysti, tor on online anonymitys. Se on sensojärjestelmä, circumvention ja privacy. Tässä olen... Olen tullut, että kaikki olivat käyttäneet tor, koska olet täällä. Minulla ei pitäisi esittää, miten tor-projekt on käyttänyt, koska sinä olet testatitit paljon. Mutta, kun sinä olet, siellä on paljon onion-servisit ja joissa on tullut web-situksia, esimerkiksi kardion-situksia, jossa voidaan lähteä informaatiota järjestelmistä. Ja minä kovin nämä onion-siteiden, joten jos haluatko palaa, niin sinun voi usea ahmia.fi surjenssien tai hiddenservisversioon surjenssien. So some introduction to talk just to understand the numbers and how many users there are and words because this is relevant to how you can in some situations break the anonymity of the user. So Tor has every moment over two million users. So that's a lot, it's a good thing, it's a large anonymity set. And there are a lot of hidden services, something like 60,000. And almost 7,000 relays. So Tor network is actually huge and that's a good thing for anonymity because we need a large anonymity set. And number of relays has been growing over the years, that's a good thing. And this is pretty great, the bandwidths that the relays are using is huge. So there is a lot of traffic on Tor and Tor browser is pretty fast these days. So it's decent to use Tor browser these days because there is a lot of bandwidth for Tor. And a lot of users and we don't even know what are these huge spikes. Like this is probably some bot network but we don't actually know it. But most of the users are probably using just Tor browser. But there are something else to behind Tor network. And same thing with onion addresses. Because most of the onion addresses are not serving anything over HTTP. So there are some other services on Tor that are not websites and nobody knows what those onion addresses are actually doing. And for instance you can see over time that there was this spike where the number of onion services grow to huge and then drop it down again. And at least I don't have any ideas what that was and I think nobody knows. So how Tor works, if you are using something like Tor browser you are the allies in the picture. And you want to connect to somewhere for instance to wikipedia.org. That is by the way censored in multiple countries. So for instance if you like to use wikipedia from some country that is censoring the internet you can use Tor browser. And then you form 3 hop circuit to the wikipedia.org. So it's like chain here. And inside Tor network your traffic is encrypted. And because you are using Tor even if there is censorship to wikipedia you can get through the censorship because your traffic is going to Tor network. Hidden services or onion services are a little bit more complicated. Because they are using their own circuit because the idea is to offer anonymity to the onion address and to the user who is connecting to the onion address. And onion address only communicates through Tor network. So you cannot find where it is and you cannot relieve the real IP address of the onion service in easy way. So first somebody creates an onion address and Tor protocol is publishing or first it's selecting some random introduction points from the network. And then publishing the information about the introduction points to distributed hash table. That is like DNS service for onion services. And if Alice knows this onion address he can ask the introduction points to this onion service from the distributed hash table of the Tor. And then share the information to hidden service that I would like to connect to you through this introduction point. And Alice is selecting rendezvous point where the hidden service and for instance Tor browsers connection is going to meet the hidden service connection. And there these Alice who is Tor client and the hidden service that is Bob are going to meet in this rendezvous point inside the Tor network. And here actually this is a Tor circuit so this is not direct connection to rendezvous point because both Alice and Bob are trying to be anonymous. So there is no direct connection to rendezvous point. And after that they are able to use any service on TCP if they like. And it is said that Tor is the king of anonymity. And the information that Tor is the king of anonymity comes from interesting source. Because it's mentioned in national security slides, top secret slides. There is actually this sentence. Still the king of high secure low latency internet anonymity. There are no contenders for the throne in waiting. So in NSA slides they say that Tor is pretty good to get good online anonymity. And you can actually read more about this that the NSA is writing that they never be able to de-anomize all Tor users all the time. But sometimes they are manually able to de-anomize some small fraction of the Tor users. However no success de-anomizing user in response to Tor be request on demand. So this probably means, I'm not sure, but probably means that if they are actually looking for one target from the Tor network. That's really hard. But if they randomly, for instance, try to de-anomize some onion services, that might be possible. Because they are actually spying the most of the optic connections, like the backbone connections of the internet. And also you can see Tor in these NSA slides. This is the NSA's thread model for what people are using. So if you are using some trivial website forum, they are able to get you if there is no HDDPS. But if you, for instance, are using something like tails, they consider it catastrophic. Because it's very hard to spy people who are using live Linux tails installation that throw all the traffic to Tor. So basically if you are reading NSA slides, you will notice that encryption really works. And you should use it as much as possible. And here again, encryption works. This is basically the message from these top secret NSA slides. If you look what is the most catastrophic situation for them, you are using Tor and you are using something like ZRTP voice encryption on Linux. And we notice because Edward Snowden leaked these slides. And as you can see, he is also a Tor user. There is this sticker Tor project. So we still hear news that sometimes there are situations that Tor users are de-anomized in multiple ways. And I actually went through all the real cases where people have lost their anonymity. And wrote slides about most of them and categorized these events to four categories. There is obviously operation security. It's difficult if you try to stay anonymous. And there have been attacks against the end user device like Tor browser. And there have been attacks against hidden services, for instance popular drug markets. And there have been cases where traffic and timing correlation attacks have worked. So first one is that operation security is difficult. Especially if your threat model is that you try to stay anonymous. So anonymity is pretty hard. And if you actually read the Wikipedia article about operation security, it basically says that do not share anything. Because any information can be critical. And it's actually hard to know what piece of information is critical now or in the future. And of course online world, if you are giving some information now and it's not critical now. It can be critical information one year from now. And if you have been writing some text to some forums under anonymity. And tell something like I am living in this city. And year after that you tell something like I'm a physics student. And year after that you tell that some other detail. And you are actually giving a lot of cumulative information about who you are. And this happens pretty easily. For instance the first Silk Road. They found Ross because he actually shared a lot of information about himself. Of course he made some technical failures too. But let's look at the operation security side. He actually thought what is his time zone. And he did many shady things like ordered fake passwords from Canada. And US Custom Service actually found those. That package and noticed that there are multiple fake passwords here. And that's of course pretty bad. Because after that they were following the guy pretty carefully. And at the same time he was telling that he is ordering now these fake passwords. So if for instance police have something like this. This will definitely mean that they will carefully look what you are doing after that. If there is multiple passwords in the customs and same face and different name. And he did that. He did multiple things. He was the first one who was sharing information that there is this cool marketplace. Where you can sell and buy trucks. And he was using this Altoid pseudonym. But the Altoid pseudonym thought that he was using Ros Ulbricht email. When he was talking about this service. And he also posted questions to Stack Overflow. Where he was asking questions how to set up this. I'm running this thing on tour. I have this hidden service. I write this piece of PHP. And he was asking these questions using his real name. And after that he noticed that this is not a good idea to use my real name. And he changed then his real name to Frosty there. But if the FBI was already looking that there is this guy Rose who is writing these things. And now he has changed his pseudonym to Frosty. And there was a lot of information that this guy is doing something. And eventually the FBI arrested him. There were multiple technical mistakes. But a lot of operative security failures too. Like this. He was one of the first ones who mentioned that there is this Silk Road marketplace. And was talking about it using the identity that was closely linked to his real identity. And now we have this case. This went to court less than a month ago. The alpha pay case. So actually you can read the court files. These are public. How they were able to find the founder of alpha pay marketplace. He was actually using his real email address. The email address that is in his LinkedIn. And actually the email address tells his first name and his birth year. And it's hotmail email address. He was using it in the site alpha pay. So there was this welcoming email coming from this email address. And of course police is going to look. Okay there is this hotmail email address. And this guy was actually using the email address in the LinkedIn. And of course they arrested him and. But this is pretty bad operation security failure. Second attacks on the end user device. We have those two. For instance four years ago it was OHOM 2013. There was this attack on the same time that FBI was able to see freedom hosting service. That was hosting a lot of onion sites. And FBI know that there's they probably bought this zero day attack against Firefox. And because store browser is based on Firefox browser. They were able to use the zero day attack against store browser. And this was a piece of Javascript. And when when Javascript is enabled on Windows. It was executing this look up of Mac address. Host name and send the information back to FBI servers. And there was of course the real IP address of the user. So because store browser is based on Firefox. There are these cases that there are zero day exploits against Firefox browser. And of course you can you can use these against store browser as well. And same happened again last year. There was again Javascript exploit against store browser. And again same thing it was looking the real IP address of the user. It was executing something on Windows. And send it the real IP address to some police server. But beyond that it's actually hard to use a web browser. And keep the anonymity because you are clicking every link you find. Because that's basically what people are doing. And you are sometimes downloading for instance files. And it's hard to actually say what is safe to download. And what is not. For instance if somebody asks is it safe to download mp3 file. And if you are listening that mp3 file. Can that cause some kind of the anonymizing thing to you. And actually it can. I noticed this when I was just reading popular VLC players bug list. That there was this bug that if you open mp3 files. And there is this mp3 u file. And you can write there something like the cover image of the album. And then the player asks that can I download this image from online. And after that if you click no it will download it anyway. So there was this small bug on the most popular video player on Linux. And if you are downloading these. If this is some kind of trap. And you are using tor. And you are downloading mp3 files with m3 u file. And open it with some media player. I think this is problem with multiple media players. They will actually look the album cover from the address that is inside the m3 u file. And of course you can use this as trap to break the anonymity of the user. And this is just mp3 files. And it's not complex system. I have no idea that what is safe to open. If mp3 is not safe in general to open if you download it from the tor network. Because other formats are much more complicated than that. Okay. Then attacks on hidden services. Again famous case Silk Road. This is the first Silk Road. It was actually leaking these error messages. Which contain the real IP address of the server. So when something went wrong on the server side. It was just saying that there was this error and this is the error message. And you were actually able to read that okay there is this real public IP address. Which actually was the real IP address of the Silk Road. And even worse than that the raws just continued to run the service. With the same IP address. He noticed that okay there is this error. And he just removed the error message. But continued to use the public IP address that was already exposed. I don't know why he did that but he did that. But in many ways you can fail with hidden services. For instance it's pretty common that people set up the SSH server to hidden service. To run this same SSH server through public IP address. And if you try to connect this. For instance this is my short change and I tested this just to show. If you are connecting to my only an address. Using SSH. You can see that there is this finger print. You don't need anything else. You only see that okay there is this finger print. And if you are using ahmia.fi. And try to connect there. You see the same finger print. Which is like mathematically proven way to say that. I'm actually running this service on public IP address. And on on your address. And this will break your anonymity obviously. And web framework. Multiple web frameworks are actually treating local host. As some kind of safe zone. So if there is connections coming from local host. Many web frameworks treat them as some kind of safe connections from yourself. But tour is in your local host. So if you are running a hidden service. Everything that is every traffic is coming from local host. To that web framework. And you can see this problem with popular HTTP servers. Just as Apache has this mode. Service status mode. And if you have this installed. You are actually exposing some information about your server through this address. But this is pretty common actually. When I coded the first version of ahmia.fi search engine. I didn't have any hidden service then. But I was coding myself this admin view inside the search engine. And my idea was that I'm just. I am the only one who is able to access the server to local host. So I coded something like this. This is a short version of the code I had. It check it that if the connection is not coming from local host. Then it says that HTTP response forbidden. But if the connection is coming from local host. Then it's safe and expose the admin user interface. And okay this is pretty good code. If you are not for instance running on your address. That actually exposes your admin user interface through the onion address. And I did that mistake. And I know that multiple web frameworks are doing that mistake. And there is no documentation for everything they are doing through local host. And of course this is security catastrophe. If you have some onion address. And there is something like that admin view. And you are exposing it to internet. Fourth thing is the traffic and timing correlation attack. So in general any system that offers real time anonymity. TCP connection basically normally. You can do traffic and timing correlation attack. For instance the implementation of tor inside tor is not very relevant to this. Because if the attacker sees the traffic coming in. And traffic coming out for instance from the tor network. Or any anonymity network that offers real time TCP connections. You are able to do some kind of traffic and timing correlation attack. Sometimes it's not even that hard. For instance there is this real case. There was this Harvard student who was going to have this final exam. And he decided that he can like move the day of the final exam. If he sends a bomb threat to the university. Of course they are not going to have the final exam. If somebody sends an email that tells that there is a bomb. But he was the only one on the campus using tor. When he was sending the email. And FBI checked that there was some kind of monitoring system inside Harvard University. And because there was only one who was using tor. And this email came from the tor network. They went to ask from the student and the student confessed it. And he was arrested. Okay you can say that still the student had plausible deniability. Because if he is the only one who was using tor from the university network. That doesn't actually prove that he sent that email. But still it gives some kind of clue for instance to the FBI. That maybe this is the first guy who we should ask about this. And he confessed it so it's a clear case after that. And this is actually traffic and timing correlation attack. So if you are only one using tor from some network. And you are giving some information that I am in this network. For instance I am living in this small town. Or something like that. You can expose yourself. And in general you can do traffic and timing correlation attack. Against tor browsers and onion services. And the point is that you are able to see the traffic coming in and traffic coming out. And you can see the real IP address there. If you are for instance the entry card note some onion address. I have my own tor test network. So this is a separate network to test things like this. It's inside Finland. There is eight nodes. I am controlling half of them. So it's pretty easy for me to test traffic and timing correlation attack. And there are eight tor nodes and this forms my test network. We are doing other things too with this network. But I tested this. I created some onion services to this tor network. And after that I started to look at traffic. And I was sending a certain traffic pattern. That was basically download, not download, download, not download, download. And I was able to see that the traffic is going through different nodes. And finally looked at okay I am actually controlling the entry node. So I can see the real IP address of the hidden service. I can actually show a video about that. So what I am basically doing I am selecting some target. This is some, you probably are unable to see. But there is some onion address. And now I am downloading data from that onion address. For a while as fast as I can. And then I sleep a while and download again. And now I am looking the traffic through my tor relay. That is the entry node for this hidden service. So I can easily see that I am actually now connected to this onion address. And actually you can do this attack on tor network too. For instance well there are a lot of onion addresses. But if you are sending traffic to all onion addresses. And control some entry card node. You will be able to see probably the traffic to some onion addresses. And you are able to locate their real IP address. And it looks something like this. Problem is that we don't actually know how much traffic some surveillance organization like the NSA is able to see. But they probably cannot see all the traffic in every country. So if you are running onion address there are multiple people who are using tor. There are a large number of onion addresses. And the NSA cannot see all the traffic through internet. So probably it's safe. But still they can de-anomize some of the onion services. And it looks like that if they are doing it. Well these were the four ways to de-anomize tor. There are some alternative systems that use tor. That try to handle this situation. For instance you can use tails. It's a live linux distribution. And it's very secure focus. So everything is behind tor network. Every piece of the traffic. So even if the attacker is able to for instance launch some kind of zero day exploit against the tor browser. It doesn't help because he is still behind tor network. If he is launching some kind of attack that is communicating to network outside of the browser. Still everything, every piece of the traffic is behind tor network. And the attacker is unable to see the real IP address of the user. Ok, if the attacker is able to get the root access to tails somehow. It's hard of course. Then he is probably able to de-anomize the tails users. But that's much harder than exploit against the browser. Tails looks like that. I think, by the way how many of you have been using tails. Or at least tested it. Wow, like half of you, ok. So you pretty much know this. Another question. How many of you have tested Hoonix? Wow, some of you, I tested it too. So I think Hoonix linux distribution is taking a step further. Even further. So this is a separate gateway system that is connected to, that is routing all the traffic through tor network. And then you are running like separate desktop environment that is able to communicate to internet only through this gateway system. So as a result even if the attacker is able to obtain root access to the desktop system. Still it cannot get any information about the real host IP address. Because it's not available inside the desktop machine. And desktop machine is only communicating with separate machine, that is the gateway machine. That's actually pretty clever. And of course if you don't need real time anonymity. For instance if you want to just transfer file or build something like anonymous email mixer. That's doable because you don't need the real time connection. And you can create something like random delays. Long random delays actually. And email mixers do that. And it's pretty hard to break them because of this. So conclusion. We can look that if you want to be online and you don't want to share your real identity. You really have to be careful with something like operational security. Use it to understand the term of operation security. You shouldn't share information about you. You shouldn't even link the information or like for instance share the news links. Or something like that that could be correlated to your real identity. And it's solely your responsibility as a Tor user. Tor approach cannot really help you with that. But of course it's the responsibility of the Tor project to offer clear tutorial materials. And it's responsible for building safe and secure software. For instance the Tor project foundation is fixing Tor browser every time. Very fast if there is some zero day exploit. But it's the responsibility of the user to understand the limits of the Tor. So if you are for instance using Tor browser and you are opening some software. You download for instance some software using Tor browser. You should understand that this software can cause some kind of de-anomization attack against you. Tor still offers very good, very high level online anonymity. And mainly the best thing is that there are a lot of Tor users. Over 2 million users and there are over 60,000 onion addresses. And a lot of traffic. So fortunately for Tor monitoring a few cards or even multiple card nodes. It's not very efficient and it takes a long time to do that. So it's something that it's not very cost efficient at the moment. At least I think that way. And the probability to get some nasty card node is pretty low. The biggest problem is the user itself. Because people do mistakes like they build the largest drug markets in the world. And use their real name in the email address. And people do that, even clever people. I'm pretty sure that those guys who have built systems like Silk Road and Alpha Pay. They basically know what they are doing. But still they do mistakes. And of course the problem is that if somebody remembers something from you. They will remember the time you did that mistake. Even if you are not normally making those mistakes. And of course if you are installing some web framework to onion address. There are these privacy leaks. And usually there are these security holes in any web framework. If you are running a web framework there is some security. So of course somebody can attack against the web framework itself. So thank you. Now we have time for questions. Yes? Is there any excessive information about the mobile version of Tor? The one created for Android? Have you ever tested it? Is it reasonably secure? So I will repeat your question. So the question is about the Android version of the Tor browser. I'm using it every day. It's the only browser I have in my Android phone. But of course there are the same issues with that. For instance if you go to some website and try to actually do something there. Sometimes you have to enable JavaScript. And for instance if the site is not using HTTPS. Then the exit node will see your traffic. It's possible to see your traffic. And I think these are the hardest problems with any browser system. You have to enable JavaScript and you have to visit pages. Where there is no HTTPS. And the exit node can see your traffic. Maybe from there. We cannot be sure. I will repeat the question. So there have been these rumors that FPI did something nasty to get the Silk Road server. And there has been actually rumors that NSA was helping them. And they were doing some kind of parallel construction. During the investigation after that. Just told that we got the information about the server. Because there was this leaky error message. We don't actually know for sure what is the truth there. It was the story I thought about. I am asking something like if you do the capture system. Yeah. But we don't know. I cannot be sure how they got the information. But there was this reddit message. That Silk Road is leaking now some information. And somebody posted the information there. We don't actually know for sure. But of course it's very probable that if you are doing your own web framework. There can be always these situations that you are accidentally printing something to the end user. For instance some server logs or error message. And of course there can be something like the real IP address of the server. Or user name or email address or something like that. So is there a system like who next will traffic being reached for the server to reduce the chances of connecting your real IP address? Well I think there isn't any system like that is easy to install that way. You can try to build it yourself. But it's still a little bit problematic. Because now you are building your own system. And you can actually do more mistakes with that. If you try to do it first time. Yes. You actually can do this build reverse proxy. So to keep that one extra hop. Between the connection points of your own network. And your real hardware. Yes. So he pointed out that it's possible to do some kind of reverse proxy system. Between the connection to Tor network. And between the HTTP server. That helps probably. Yes. I remember some project I just tried to communicate to each other. But it had a function built in. That generated random Tor traffic in order to prevent the anonymization. Do you know if that has been effective so far? Or are there still methods to discover that. Because of the amount of entropy that is present in communication. So the question is. Does it help to add some noise traffic? Yes. Perhaps the entropy of the noise as itself being a signature. Could that identify that? And entropy of the noise. According to my information. It's not efficient. That's the first case. So you are actually using the bandwidth of the Tor network. To something that is not useful traffic. And because I think the other thing there is that. If you are adding noise to your real traffic. The attacker can still try to remove the noise from the traffic. Because he knows that okay there is some level of noise in the signal. So actually there are methods to try to find the real data from noise signal. And for instance if you are doing some kind of traffic correlation attack. Probably you are able to see still the traffic pattern. Even if there is a level of noise in the signal. Probably I would think so. And it's not efficient. I think that's the first point. You may be the single biggest catastrophic failure of anonymity. Was the relay early thing, the traffic labeling thing. Which basically is exposed to the addresses of a significant portion of the users. Does this mean that you consider these kinds of problems solved. Or are traffic labeling attacks something I need to watch out in the future. Traffic laboring attack. Can you give the example? Yeah, like the relay early thing. Well I think it's part of the traffic and timing correlation attack I think. But yeah you can do that. But still there are a lot of tor users. And it's hard to find a certain user from the anonymity set. I think like if you read the NSA slides. They are talking about that yeah we have these targets that are using tor. And it's hard to deanomize them. But we can deanomize some tor users. They probably try to say that if they are asking to deanomize just random tor users. They can do it. So they can deanomize tens of thousands of people. Yeah, because it's actually hard to find the real targets from there. But those NSA slides were from 2012. That's true, they are old slides. But still they don't work with magic. So I think there are still those limits to their systems and powers. Yes? What sort of people say such things? Like who is running the exit nodes? Well we don't actually know that. But still you get pretty good... Yeah it's possible that law enforcement runs exit nodes. And they probably do that. And I think there are researchers who do that for themselves. But for instance if you have HDTBS connection. Then you are pretty safe. They only see that somebody for instance if you are connecting to wikipedia.org. Through their exit node. You are only seeing that there is someone who is connecting to wikipedia.org. But they are not able to even see what is the page. And they are unable to see who is actually connecting there. So thanks to Let's Encrypt there are a lot of pages with HDTBS these days. So it's pretty safe in that way. But you have to be careful if there is some site. And you are sharing some sensitive information. There is only plain text HDTBS connection. But you should be aware of that anyway I think. You can basically assume that they are going to try to run exit nodes there somewhere. Yeah. Or consider it like open wifi network. Like somebody could be listening to that too. Yes. So the question is are there any special methods inside the tour project. To make sure that when there are updates. The updates are really coming from the tour project. And nobody can compromise the system that is sharing the updates. And I don't have answer to that question. But obviously if the attacker is able to compromise the updating methods. And send updates then he can do whatever he wants. So basically same thing if somebody compromises something like Linux update system. He is able to do anything after that. Yes. You have to ask that from someone else. I don't know how they are doing the updating system there. So yeah. Yeah. So if you are even downloading tour browser. You should check that it's the real tour browser. And from the tour project and look the signatures. You have to ask that from someone else. I don't know how they are doing the updating system there. So yeah. So if you are even downloading tour browser. You should check that it's the real tour browser. My question is, they can do that with tails probably, because tails has the real mechanism of the operating system, like of the computer and maybe other serial numbers in the operating system are exposed somehow. But can this happen with Poonix or is virtualization software isolated enough so that they cannot get serial numbers and I don't know, USB peripheral IDs and stuff like that. At least it's harder to hack Poonix with any zero-day exploit against the browser, because you probably need another zero-day exploit against the virtualization environment. Okay, which exploit? Yeah, sure. But I think the great thing here with the zero-day exploits is that if some surveillance agency is using them, they are usually able to use them only once. So it's pretty costly to them to de-anomize someone and there is, actually then there is certain kind of balance between the anonymity and criminal behavior, because they can like say that okay, we have to use one million dollars just to de-anomize some door users. So there is certain kind of balance between resources and what they are doing, so they are not probably attacking just randomly against some door users. They have to really carefully select the targets. But it doesn't apply if they aggressively use the parallel construction right, because then you never know. That's true, if they are using parallel construction then it's very hard situation. If they are just de-anomizing users at random for instance and nobody knows that, but it's illegal. Yeah, we don't know, but in many cases we have to believe that there are certain laws and society works that way, that usually people obey laws. If that counter to good opsec, assuming your opponent will lie back. Yes, it is if you are running drug markets and your opponent is something like the NSA. So technically you can prevent connections to door network and then of course door is using officiated methods to connect to door network. And you can use money to prevent every kind of officiated method to connect to network. I think it's pretty expensive to build something like Chinese Great Firewalling System, so it's not free to do that, but it's technically possible. And I think in western countries we are not going to allow those kind of systems hopefully, so you are able to use door in multiple countries. Maybe not in China, I think now these days it's problematic because they are detecting those officiated door protocols at the moment and they are at least slowing them down. Yeah, so the comment was that the Chinese Firewall was actually checking out what are the hosts that are hosting some kind of officiated pretzes to door network. And they were able to discover those hidden pretzes to door network that are set up to help people who are for instance in China. So you have to do at least some kind of active method to find out those methods to connect to door network and hopefully it's expensive to do that because it slows down the censorship. Google's cloud, there's some app there that allows reaching. Meek Proxy. Using the Meek Proxy and some civilized country that couldn't afford to block Google, tried to block Tor, then they would have to block Google Clouds and all that. So I guess that answers partly the question about blocking Tor in western countries but not of course in all countries. I think China might be blocking Google as well. Yeah, I think at the moment they are even blocking connection to Meek Proxies. I think they are detecting them somehow at the moment. So one strategy to officiate traffic is hide the traffic inside something that the censorship system cannot prevent you from using because it's too important for the country. So I think Tor has been using something like Meek Proxy for a while that was hiding the traffic inside Google apps like a connection. And China could have censorship unroiding updating system but that's too expensive for the country to prevent updates to something like Android. And if you are for instance hiding your traffic inside something like this, it's very clever method because they cannot just cut down the connections to somewhere like that. You could do it with multiple protocols. I think something like Skype is pretty clever idea because I think China is not blocking connection to Skype at the moment because it would prevent them to do business. Okay, thank you.