welcome. Thank you so much. So excited for this. I am too. Hell yeah. It's been so fun being here with you guys. It's been fun having you. Yeah. For those of our audience that are wondering like what we're talking about. So I'm currently in the Netherlands working with Bintiño and the team and have been here since August. So we're on our fourth month. Yeah. And this was all after I attended the Costa Rica retreat in March and started getting more excited about igniting global awakening the mission. And Corey's been how many years now? Seven years since you met Ben? I think so. Seven, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Since 2014. It's 2015 actually. Early 2015. Yeah. So pretty much approaching seven. Cool. And that was back in Boulder. Yeah. Cool. Those videos of you are so funny. The conscious class ones or which ones? Just the ones of you sitting with Ben like talking to him. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's like you and your 23. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the first thing I, the first time I like raised my hand in the session and asked him a question. He was like talking about how everything physical is a manifestation of something. And I was like, I saw you have some zits.  Nice. Nice. Yeah. What thought is creating the zits? Yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah. So now you've had so many years of picking up like these patterns of the way that consciousness expresses itself. And sort of like seeing the difference between when someone is coming from a place of like knowledge of the nature of reality and of non separation and of service versus when somebody is coming from ignorance of unity. And then just like seeing all those different patterns of expression of how to like shift, like that was the theme of the event in March was the shift into permanent alignment. So it's like shifting into realizations, shifting into awakening, shifting into service. And it's a really subtle art is sort of helping guide people when they ask for, oh, how do I become more realized? Or how do I dissolve these bits of separation? How do I serve people better? So yeah, so in this last like seven years now, we're so of, you know, becoming more of like a Jedi at this.  What where are you still? Where are you still feeling like seeking validation or still wanting to be seen or having like sabotage style agendas to be seen, things like that. And I think that that's been really insightful because I've spent so much of my time going up into concept land and into the metaphysical clouds, and it's been great. But then this next level has been very much like human. It's been very much like, well, where are those shadowy aspects of my expression of consciousness? Yeah. So I think that's a good place for us to start is just maybe you sharing with us what's been your both your experience with the shadowy side of realization and then how that serves the awakening, but then also seeing the pattern in people. Say the first part again. So my experience with the shadowy side of realization. Yeah, yourself and then also in the expressions of the patterns for other people and how that serves them when they see those shadowy aspects, how that serves their awakening. Yeah, cool. Really cool question. Well, I would say it's sort of the main like when we say like do the work, this is the main work. It's like looking at the shadow stuff. It's and shadow is a little bit of a misnomer or something like it has all kinds of connotations. But it's like, yeah, where am I trying to get or consume or position myself? Or I mean, I guess I like most the context of service to self versus service to others. And when you're truly of service to others, I mean, this is essentially like in Buddhism, there's like the three paths. I'm going to totally botch this. But there's like, concentration, do you know the three concentration, something else, and I think wisdom. And wisdom is like the never ending path of self refinement. So like you can have realizations, cool, wonderful. You can have and there's another path I forget. And then, but then there's this wisdom, not sure if that's the word, but it's like the never ending path of like, can I be more of service? Can I be more loving? Can I radiate more? Can I purify this vessel even more? And I mean, that's to me what inspires me so much about Bantino, more so than his realizations, because he's had realizations that I haven't. So it's hard for me to even know what's special about that. But the, but the purification and the work that he's done on himself is what is so impressive to me. And it's what we do here.  So for me, man, it's like, it's, it never ends. It really is a never ending path of self refinement and purification. But I can think of tons of examples of when I was doing something that felt innocent. Let me see if I can get a good one. It always feels innocent at the time. It always feels it's always kind of a blind spot. It's just a behavior. It's just a mode.  And then when it gets addressed or reflected or called out, you realize that it wasn't, it's not you. It's a strategy. It's the strategy to get something. And that's sort of that peeling the sticker off of the sticker paper. And like realizing like, damn, this whole, this whole thing that I thought was me is not. And it was, and it's this like this hitchhiker in the back of my car that's trying to get whatever, get some sort of validation. So there's one story that's coming to mind, but I always tell this story. So I'm trying to think of a, have you shared it online before the story? Maybe not. I mean, I've shared it in boot camps and stuff. But there's been so many, there's an, it's hundreds, you know what I mean? It's, there's hundreds of layers of self deceit. Yeah. Thousands. I mean, it's tons. It's tons. So when you, and when you start, when you start going in there, you, you get humbled by how much, how much more there is. So anyway, so this was back in Egypt a few years ago, five years ago or so. And I asked, we were in a group and I was a little bored with how the group was going, like we needed to up level. And so I asked Bantino for a reflection, or I just asked him to like, can we up level this? And he said, how do you want a reflection?  Like immediately I felt the confrontation of it. Immediately I felt the like exposure.  And I think that's what everyone does. It's kind of, it's our programming.  You want proof of your innocence. You don't want proof of how you've been a saboteur or how you've been, you're not looking for that. And so I said, yeah, begrudgingly. And he said, all right, tell me about your laugh. And I was like, what? I'll tell you about my laugh. And so we got to a place where I saw that often. And this kind of came from like high school, like, you know, trying to be cool being with the popular girls conditioning, where I would use my laugh. Like I would just like, I would clear, I'd make it so clear to people that wherever I was, was the cool place to be the fun place. We're laughing here. We're excited over here. So and like, and that was one of my mechanisms, like I would just have this like field of like, this is the place to be. I'm so fun over here, just to kind of have the attention just to get the validation. It was so cool. This was like a two hour process of me just resisting it, resisting it, not wanting to see it, but still like, still being like, I'm going to get this, like still having enough curiosity or enough humility or enough willingness to pursue it, despite how uncomfortable it was. And then that was like, that was one of those bombs that once you get that, like how you've, you've had a few of these, like once you get that thing that just, it's like, it's like the domino effect of just like, oh my God, everything I've been doing is foolish. Everything. It's like my whole personality, this whole construct is to give validation, to look good, to have people's eyes, seeing me positively, favorably. And I remember just for like about a week, just like every, every single thing I did was repulsive to me. Like I couldn't make eye contact without being like, damn, even in my silent eye contact with you, I'm trying to get something out of you, even, even in this text, the way I'm framing this text, I'm trying to get something out of you, just to see everything, everything I was doing was a manipulation. Everything was strategic to get something for myself and completely, completely ignorant of what was best for that person. There you go. Yeah. So, so cool. Yeah.  Like the subtlety of just the laugh to get eyeballs. This is the place to be. Like I'm the person to talk to. Yeah. For me, it shows up as I'm, I'm awake. Like, look at me. Look at how woke I am. Yeah. Cool. Okay. So that, that's a good one. And then that also, like you said, unraveled a bunch of, but sometimes it takes a while to sort of like surrender to the reflection, in a sense, because you have that, we have the defense of that self-preservation mechanism that's wanting to refute the reflection. But the best thing we can do is go on the offense. Like you said, like, I want this, like I want to learn about this. I want to see through. It's important to see where you identify. So what everyone does, almost everyone does, is if I'm going to give you a reflection, it's your, it's personal. It's like, because you are identified with the reflection. So when Bantinius said, tell me about your laugh or even when he said, want me to give you a reflection, it was like, no, like me, it's me, like I'm identified with whatever thing. So if, but if, if I had known in retrospect, and this is something that I know now, that a reflection is necessarily not me, that anything that could be impure or off or misaligned or malintent or manipulative, if we can find that, I want to find that. I want that off. Like that's a barnacle. That's like a sweet, that's a, that's a glasses that I don't want to be wearing. And if somebody else can help me see those, I'm going to go on their team and look for those same glasses. Like game on, well, let's find those. So, but at the time, and what everybody does, it's, it's personal. It's like, I'm identified with all of this. So if you're going to call me out, that's personal. That's your, you're threatening me. And so that's why we get that sort of like defense mode. But if you just go on the offense and look for it too, like you see something, well, help me see it. Let's find it. That's cool. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So I love that last bit. So, so to start with how it, asking for to, because like you said, there is like, it's like a lens of perception that you don't want to be wearing anymore. Or it's like, it's not you, the reflection that's coming is not you. So you want help to sort of look for how I'm expressing myself. That's in a twisted way, manipulative way, trying to extract or get validation, these type of thing. And then when you sort of see it that way, and you see it as sort of oneness, helping itself see that, see through that. Nice way to put it. I like that. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Guards down. So it's like, if your, if our intention is to purify, and maybe nice to explain that purification is like peeling off all the not you, basically, all the, all the conditioning, all the everything that's like, I'm just the kind of person who doesn't like singing, or anything that's just like, I'm just like anything that is like, this is who I am, this is what I am, this is how I operate, this is what I think this is anything like that, anything that is, is inherently limiting. It's just taking that off. So if that's actually the intention, if purification is actually the intention, letting your guard down to people who can see blind spots is like the most efficient way you can purify. Yes. And teaming up with them would be even bonus. Yeah, bonus. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, speed things up. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Because those patterns can't survive in a high intensity environment. Yeah. So when you're there every day, it's every single expression that you have is being looked at. And you know this first hand. Yeah, this is good. This is great. I like I love where this is going. I feel like this is this will be a good place for us though. So to investigate and continue playing on for for a bit on this on this episode together. Okay, so another way that's helped for me to see this is that it's, you know, from spaciousness or from consciousness itself is then Atlas or Corey or whatever character. And then the expression that that character has. And so to sort of see yourself as like that, that empty cognizing conscious space. And then to see that then you have this character appear and then you have these patterns of expression appear of that character. And then you're really, it really it kind of it makes it so that the way that this that the character expresses itself like you you told me this a couple weeks ago I thought it was so good that it's like creating your own like deconstruction project of your personality of all those patterns. So it's like a it's like a simulation for you to deconstruct your psychology, your patterns of expression. And so when you treat it that way it becomes like a game. Yeah, it's like, like get experience points by liberating yourself from the conditioned patterns where you seek hits of validation or where yeah, where you yeah, we're like watching where every word is coming from at that level of awareness and intent. Yeah. And then so I like seeing it that way because I feel like then especially for like in the age of technology that we're in it feels like people are becoming more aware of like patterns and and like being able to see themselves as a deconstruction project. I just I feel like that's really helpful. And so then you do want you do want on on this to help itself see those twisted or distorted patterns and then to liberate itself from that and you can achieve that much faster by surrounding yourself with people that have seen those patterns. So that's where I was also getting at earlier by you being here for seven years, you're basically picking up all of those subtle patterns. And then you're able to help people in all of those different ways liberate themselves from conditioning. And I love that. I love that so much is probably one of the most exciting things for me is immediately after I turn inward and investigate and deconstruct and liberate myself from a pattern, then I kind of become a steward or a shepherd for being able to help serve people, liberate themselves from that pattern. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that'd be a good place also for you to speak on is now that you've seen like years and years of different patterns of of all these like lack beliefs showing up in people's expression. And then now you were also becoming more aware of, okay, well, this they're like different flavors are different on the color palette. And then now you can sort of like become aware of the best ways to help people deconstruct those. And then so yeah, so let's let's talk about that. Cool. I wonder if there's because for sure. First thing that comes to mind is like that is just tacit knowledge. That's just like you you just learn by doing. And it's a little hard to be like, well, if X, then Y. If unworthy, yes. That would be nice. Actually, I've had a little bit of like fantasy of one day making some sort of like resource book, like, you know, those books where you can like flip to the tab, it's like, aha, here's me, follow the if this then this, like, and like get to the result. Pray. Yeah, so but you're right, you're totally right. Like, it sort of accumulates over time. Maybe not over time, but over experience with a bunch of different people, a bunch of different processes, seeing what works. I'm still man, every time I see someone have a breakthrough, it's like, what caused that? Like, what was it? Like what landed for them? And it's I love you're you're really with yours, you've been super like verbal about everything. So it's so cool, because it's like, it's just like, here's what happened. Here's what clicked. Here's the thing that Romeo said that landed. Here's the thing that Corey said that landed here. And so it's like, oh, damn, that's awesome feedback for us. Cool. Because in a way, these things just seem to take time. It's just like, all right, you can sense somebody has a handful of distortions. It's never, it's never like, ah, here it is. I know exactly what it's never that. It's just like, let's feel it out. Let's see something's going to cross a line. And then we're going to be able to be like, haha, like, let's look at this. Here we go. Let's let's let's begin. And we don't even know what the lines aren't necessarily. And it doesn't have to be that they cross a line.   You're trying to get something for yourself. It's it's disruptive. It's it's disrupting the innocence in a way of the group. So it's like something has to like peak the radar. And then once it does, there's permission or there's an invitation to sort of go in and start navigating with them and reflecting in. But man, if I were to try to like paint a picture of it is just it is just tacit knowledge. But there's patterns. That's one thing that's been cool that you can. There's not too many new things like there's not too many different. Like I would guess there's like it's just a random guess, but I would guess there's like 30 sort of personal process archetypes or blueprints. And you can sort of map any new process to one of those. So yeah, it doesn't feel like there's a ton of new. I mean, it's rare that it'll be like, whoa, I've never seen a process like this. Or I have no clue how this person can can break through or or sort of transcend this layer of. Yeah, so it's not too common that it's just a total totally new situation. How's that? Is that online with your question? Yeah, because it's like practicing a sport or a musical instrument. So the classical analogies of you will over time use the word tacit. Yeah, tacit. Yeah, interesting. Like experiential. I'm not sure. I think what tacit knowledge as sort of like a concept means is it's like, it's like when people refer to a workplace, you want employees with tacit knowledge which is just people that have been there and like know the ropes. Yeah, they've just like done it a lot. So they you can say like, how do you do this? And they wouldn't even be able to tell you they just know they just yeah.  Yeah. Yeah, nice. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that that definitely resonates. Okay. Okay, so so the contrast that we want to share is that the and you mentioned this earlier too, that you have this, what you could call a polarity between service to self and service to others. And so then you can like begin noticing in your speech, like communication is one of the best ways to begin noticing. Am I saying this for myself or am I saying this for serving for serving other people? And then and then so within this like tacit knowledge of serving other people, probably one of my favorite examples of this right now, which is really relatable to what we're doing with no limit society, you guys can find the link in the bio below. It's been in the bio of most of our recent interview content. This is a training free agents for the ignition of global awakening. And we 10 out of 10 recommend 10 out of 10. This is so cool. It's so cool. We have these awesome sessions on Wednesdays that are like three, three hours long of covering different subjects like self realization, or some of these like shadow or like gremlin or hitchhiker aspects and like liberating ourselves from those patterns. But a lot of other cool aspects, which is like the caters, which is what I want to talk about. So we have these groups of like 15 or 20 people that are then kind of shepherded in their own realization and liberation from patterns of conditioning by somebody that's kind of been there at least a little bit. So a core, you could say someone that's been there quite a bit for me somewhere that's sort of starting to be there and starting to serve. And so it's been really interesting being in a position where I'm really the whole time when I'm on the cater call is I'm just actively listening to what they're saying. And then I'm and then I'm just like just naturally really just the replies about them and the replies about, you know, where they're at and the replies about how what can serve them, what can help them liberate themselves from some sort of a pattern or to help them realize at a deeper level what their true nature is just things like this. And so then so then you begin sort of carrying that with you everywhere you go, that style of behavior expression. So so okay, so then I would say probably you gave 30 example, you said that there might be like 30 of these different ways to like deconstruct psychology, different ways that psychology even builds up or identity builds up, I'd say. Because if it doesn't even build up if separation or conditioning doesn't even build up, then you're like, you're just a kid that becomes like an awake teenager or whatever. Because you have awake parents perhaps or this type of thing. So then if there is this construction project of identity and separation conditioning that happens, then there are also and typically it happens in, let's say that one of the ways is sort of like people feeling unworthy, and then seeking getting worthiness from other people. That's a pretty common one, I would say, yeah. So like people speak so that they can be validated by other people. Yeah, I would say unworthiness is like either the one that's at the root of all of them, or it's like one of three that's at the root of all of them, it's like the which it's one of the most common things. So I would say that even these 30 things, this is so speculative, but even those 30 things, those start after the unworthiness, lack of belief. So these are sort of like the ways it manifests that I'm talking about the construction project. Sweet, sweet, sweet. And then you could even say that even deeper than unworthiness is even a feeling of separation. Nice. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Okay. Sweet. And then even before that, a feeling of location. Location. Yeah. That's cool. Nice. Location separation on worthiness. And then it, yeah, definitely like blossoms or or like expresses itself in varying ways from that source point, you could say, nice location and separation. It shows up as unworthiness or whatever else. And then now then you have the other way of viewing that, which is so there's the construction side of it. And then there's the deconstruction side of it, which is where you get people like Corey or like some of the other Kata guides in the limit society, that have sort of seen some of the patterns of how to they've been there done that this tact, tactic, tacit, tacit, tacit knowledge, tacit knowledge, tacit knowledge. So I've been there done that on the deconstruction side of it. And then now, well, maybe this would be a good place to ask you, what have you seen in terms of most common ways of deconstructing? Because we mentioned it a little bit like actively listening, like feeling into how to ask a good question that would help somebody have insight into their conditioning. Interesting. There's, there's like layers to it.  And it's, it's not effortless to get toward the center. So to the center, it's where like you are signed up, it's like, I would say that I'm close to the center of like, I have signed up if I do anything impure, it's going to get reflected immediately. If there's an ounce of sort of self gratification in my behavior, I have no wiggle room. No, no. So it's like an immediate, like Mark's been great at that for me recently. Nice. Good. Yeah. Yeah. So like where we are, it's like the remind me of your question again. So I don't the deconstruction, the deconstruction process and patterns of that and how shepherding works with that. Ah, cool. You asked me something when I was. Oh, and you went to the onion layers. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not effortless to. So, oh, okay, because you were talking about how you'll sort of, you'll do like active listening. Cool. To me, that's kind of like a mid range thing. Like, yeah, just like listening to people offering some tips, some, like maybe consider it like this or have you, you know, so that's kind of more like safe and not too confronting people can take it or leave it. Yeah. Nice. Oh, I like where you're going with this. Sweet. And so, but then there's a certain threshold where you, where it's the wrong word, but there's almost like a transaction. It's like a, all right. All right. I'm in, like I'm in for this work. I'm in for this heat.  Like I want to work with you guys. I want to, I want to be a shepherd of this content. Like I want to make sure that the team works well and people are taking care of and the stuff and, and like the, the material is handled. So there's actually responsibility here. So then our, our process suddenly becomes everybody's business. There's no private space in that once you're like, all right, I volunteer. I'm in. I sign up for this. I choose me. Like let's go. I enter the heat. I enter the ring of fire. Now you don't get the luxury of take it or leave it. It's like, if you want to be in, your stuff is everybody's business and now the heat is on. And so if you've got some stuff coming up, if you've got some, if you're strategizing, if you're positioning yourself, if you're competing with other people on the team, if you're withdrawing, if you're insecure, that's our business. Like we can't have that. It's a liability. It's a mess with the team. No. And it's not just the team. I use that example because it's mine. But there can be any sort of, any sort of environment where you just opt in for the work or for the reflections or to see the blind spots or to transmit the ego or whatever in modality or whatever. And when you, there is a threshold that when you cross, it's like you're on the hook. Yeah. Like you're accountable now. It's not just seeds planted and gradual progress and reading a really nice self-help book. So there's sort of a different, yeah. And there's probably more, more nuance to the gradient, to the spectrum. But yeah. And your question was about then once. So this is cool. Cool. Because you, we could say that the construction project is sort of the forming of the onion layers and the deconstruction is the taking, peeling away of the onion layers. And that when you sort of start at the edge of the onion is where you get like, sort of the safe ways of help serving where you maybe ask a clarifying question or have you seen it this way, that kind of thing. I'm still definitely playing it safe like that. That's so good actually though. And I think you, I think you don't only play it safe. Like you get in there, you get in the ring. I do, I do, but I'm still sort of figuring out how to come from a confident place that's also humbly like a shepherd there, rather than also coming from being seen at the same time. Okay. This actually made me think of an important distinction. So I think there's a conception that if you like, join the team, you're like in that, you're like an NBA team. So now it's you, like the heat is high and people are calling each other out and it's, you know, like high intensity and it's not necessarily like that. It's what, it's super harmonious actually. So leadership by example, I would say is the most effective. The single most effective thing, because that's, that's what has people like pay attention. Totally. It's like, if you're embodying it, if you're embodying purity, that's what has people be like, I want that. Yes. So then you're, you can just say like, sorry, what's up? Are you okay? And that'll just like send ripples through somebody's process. Like, Oh my God, I'm not okay. I've been, you know, you can, if you're actually embodied, if you're actually, you can just ask a, you can ask a clarifying question. And there's no heat at all with the question like that. It was just super soft and gentle. Yeah. Or it can just be an eye contact or it can be a not responding to a text or it can be the gentlest of the gentle and, and have an incredible effect because you've got, you're leading by example, because you've sort of, you're an example of it. You, an embodiment. Yeah. So, cool. Yeah. So that's been an interesting process too, to see like, that it's actually less, there's kind of like this illusion of more and more heat and it is, you're, you're more and more accountable, but the heat isn't, it's like, it's kind of hotter on like one of the outer rings a little bit more.  And they have, you know, it's like there's this buildup of whatever suppression people have.  And so that's a phase that I think a lot of people are in right now. I think in the kiddos, it's a good place for people to practice that just to sort of like, I don't know, whatever it is, just get their, just get this burden off their shoulders. But after that, after that, and after it gets even sort of closer to the core, it calms down a lot. I mean, the sensitivity is even higher. So the smallest things make an enormous difference. But it's not, it's not so loud. It's not so, it's not like this intimidating intense atmosphere. I don't know, maybe you can, you cannot, I'd be curious how that resonates for your experience. Yeah, that's cool. I love the example that you gave of just the embodiment of purity and oneness and service to where it's just as simple as, hey, like, how you doing? It's like, Oh God, bullshitting right now. I just saw it through your eyes. Yeah, exactly. Nice. Yeah, like that. That's so cool. So cool. Yeah, because there's almost a, there's like, you can hold eye contact from that place longer. And then the person like feels that and they're like, Oh, I'm not that right now. There you go. Nice. Like that. Yes. Oh, so good. So good. So rich right now. So okay. Okay, so I feel like, I feel like I want to stay there another second because it's just such a good point. Like when you look, you're seeing the spaciousness, like you're seeing like the truest deepest nature of infinity of consciousness, and you're not seeing a person construct that's unworthy trying to get things that type of thing. Nice. Actually, I like, I like where you're going with this. Yeah. So to be in an environment and I people experience this all the time coming here, where it's just coming into this environment and not having the comfort of messy social places to hide. Yeah.  And yeah, and you're actually here where people are like, Hi. Yeah. Hello. Hello. Sup. Like with no momentum. Um, it's super exposing. It's you become so aware of everything that comes up.  Like just all the conditioning is just like, yeah, it's excruciating. It's like those that week that I had in Egypt after I had this, this, like, Oh my God, everything I do is manipulative. Everything I do is so that is super confronting often when people come to this. So I like, I like where you're taking this with if you've embodied it, you have that effect on people. Bantino has that effect on people. People are so intimidated. It's like immediately just coming. He's like, Oh my God, Bantino is here and just immediately they're aware of everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is one of the, I would say the coolest aspects to enlightenment or awakening or that spaciousness is that it's, it's really visceral. It's really embodied. And it's really just present in like the radiance of, of them.  And that's where you can sort of use words like mirror. And it's really cool to, to tune into what that's like to, well, not only to, to empty myself or oneself of so much of the self interest that it is just that mirror like spaciousness and service. But also to then be also in proximity to those that are already that clearly and then to see to be like to be really aware of, of, of that. And because like I also get to see it through, through you and through Ari, Kars, Romain, Mark, etc. Because you guys have spent years and years also with Ben and on this process of seeing these subtleties of consciousness and the way we express ourselves. And then so then it is like, it really, I mean, the analogy is so good, it does really this like onion like analogy of then knowing how the optimal ways of deconstructing the onion layers themselves over time, you just tacit, it becomes tacit knowledge of how to optimally serve in that deconstruction. This is that this is great. I feel like that covers a lot of what I wanted to touch on. I have another point that I want to touch on. So a lot of the times when we talk, we talk about things like vibration or frequency. And I think that's one of the best ways that we can possibly put like the way that we express ourselves. And so are you, you know, expressing yourself at a place of a lot of separation and identity and unworthiness or are you expressing yourself from a pure empty place that's just there in service. And maybe that's a good way for you to share. Do you feel like the tacit knowledge has become mostly then you could say vibrational, it's become more like like a sensing in a sense, like you're still. And then that enables you to sort of see more clearly the vibration of where other people are coming from.  And then you see you see that style of vibration expression. And then you see the other style, which is maybe another person that's quite still that's quite there, happy, relaxed, like just waiting to like, Oh, someone came and sat down and they want to have a conversation. And then just kind of like tuning into them. So do you see it sort of vibrationally?  And then you see the vibrational expression of others in detecting benefit where you can serve that type of thing. Even this is part of the tacit knowledge. So I think you're right. I think it is just vibrational. And I think it does come from sort of whatever level of stillness or like quietness that I've reached up to that level. I can perceive it in others, I guess, and more because I can perceive people who are sort of more advanced in me. Yeah, so in a way it is, there's kind of like a radar, like a little satellite or of just like where is, yeah, it is vibrational. Because it's just like harmony, harmony, harmony, oneness, oneness, oneness, like alignment, alignment, alignment.  Or, or conversation or even in conversation, when I sit down with somebody on the team, and we just kind of lock in and connect and just like, what's up. And it's like, there's something that could use a little clarity or something that could use, and that's where we'll go. Like, so we sort of follow the, so interesting. I think that is when Ben talks about being available. Or you just said something like that, like being attentive to the highest benefit. I think that's the mechanism in a nutshell.  So it's not that the only behavior that we, that we enact is like detecting the highest benefit. It can totally just be fun, random, silly, stupid, nothingness. But yeah, like if that's sort of the, if we're like in a group setting and I'm kind of like walking, engaging, like where am I, where will I sit or where will I go and address or what will I pour my, what will I pour my attention into? Yes. That's what I'm, it's like, where do I sort of feel like something could use a little light? Yeah. So you used radar, which I liked. So, so it'd be like, rather than being only focused on yourself, you try to expand your area of focus, like beyond what you can extract or like get. Yeah, good point. To then more people as like over time, like expand yourself. To, you know, a room of people if you can up to the whole universe. And when you sort of see like on the radar, are you seeing where you can come and give attention to the whole that then brings a little bit more light into where somebody could feel contracted or still separate or be perpetuating a pattern of condition, that type of thing. That I like the radar and I like how you said earlier, also this like the ping like nature as well. So when you get to these levels of sensitivity where you can sort of, you know, you can feel like be like, and then like, oh, over here, that's what it is. Or I think you made the most important point, which is if and when I'm not consumed by whatever my own thing. So yeah, there you go. And that's sort of the main, I think that's the like human condition for the most part is like people just like walk into a room like aware of themselves. Yes. Just walk into a room and kind of want to connect. But there's so much agenda, like there's so much intention to get validation or even or even to like have an effect and to be the one that caused that effect. That's a probably a pattern of mine. Cool. That's probably the one. To be the one that does. Yeah, totally. And it's subtle. Yeah. And what I would recommend for people is to not be like, do I have that or not? It's like, no, just assume you do. You definitely do. And not just like gauge what it is. So look for what it is, like what's your hidden agenda when you walk into a group or in general that you do. It would be totally it would be totally foolish to. Yeah. So start with assuming that you have a pattern that you're not aware of. Yeah. That's great. That's a great first step. Yeah. Funny, huh? Because it's so obvious, but it's it is necessary to say that. Because even that opens that creates just enough opening for you to begin digging deeper. Because if you don't say that first thing, there's no opening. Do I have any inauthenticities? Do I have any hidden agenda socially? Nope. No, I'm good. I don't think so.  As opposed to like, all right, where is it? Like, what am I? How did I get something from myself out of that last interaction? Why did I say that? Why did I really say that? Not just, no, because I was curious about where she got that shirt. No, like, why did you say that? Like, why? What did you get? What was the what was the potential that you could have gotten out of her being complimented by her shirt or whatever example? Like it's just everywhere. That's the thing. It's insidious. It's everywhere. You can find it everywhere. If you've got a program running, it's everywhere. You can find a little 2% over here and a little 5% over there. So you just need one thread. It's like Bantini finding my laugh. Just like, tell me about your laugh. And that he didn't even know. Like, he didn't know where that was going to go. Yeah, but it's just like something's off here. Like, something's for yourself here. You've got a little thread of this agenda. And if we just trace it back, it's gonna unravel the whole shirt. Yeah. So go on the offense. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And it's so much more liberating when you don't come into a room, like wanting to get or extract or to be seen or to be the one that makes some sort of a liberation happen. And that's so cute. Are you seeing as God sees right now? How can I help liberate you? I don't know. I'm just igniting global awakening over here, guys. Just so everybody knows, we've been having so much fun with Atlas's. Atlas's thing has, do you care if we get into this? Yeah, we can. So your thing has been getting into, it's, yeah, I love that you already sort of called it out, like being the one who liberates, being the one who enliens. So, but one of our favorite access points with you has been your jargon. It's been such a giveaway. It's such a cool one. It's like, so it's so the equivalent of my laugh, like, cackling somewhere with. Oh, nice. It's just like, it's like, here's a giveaway. There's something we don't know where we're going to go with this, but there's something there with all the, like with any pattern, basically anything where it's like, oh, that's such an Atlas thing to do, or that's such a core thing to do. If you can find that, if you can find something that's like, damn, I could have predicted that. Yeah. You there, like access point. Yes. Start there. Yeah. Yeah. And you've been, you've just made leaps. Yeah, thanks to this container is so good. It's awesome. Yeah. Even quick, quick work. Yeah. The growth mindset, like wanting, wanting it, yeah, wanting it more than like reaching out with both hands for the opportunity. Yeah. I remember it too, back before you joined us, we had, we had a conversation about the KEDAs or about analysts or something. And do you remember this? I was in Mexico.  Like your first response was like, hold up. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's a little strong. I'll give you this, but I'm not going to, it was like, bless your heart. And like now, now to see you like with no defense anymore. Yeah.  I see it. Thank you. Like with follow up questions and with, yeah, such a transformation there. Nice. Yeah. Wow. Do you remember, do you remember that? I feel like that does ring a bell. Yeah. Yeah. I just remember you specifically being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. Like literally Yeah. At least so defense. Yeah. I'll give you this. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And to juxtapose that with what you share, which is sort of like, when someone does approach you from the team, like you just want to know right away, what is it? Yeah. Tell me, like, what's the reflection that I need right now? Like, really? It's almost like, thank you. Let's let me, could it be this? Like, I'm helping them. Giving them data. I'm volunteering it.  But I'm not going to take any time defending. Like, we're going after that hijacker. Yeah. Nice. Cool. So, so we could say that the formation, let's say, yeah, location, separation, and then how that just blossoms into all these core lack beliefs and stuff like that, that, that you could call that the gremlin, or you could call that the hitchhiker. You could call that the, what is constantly being reflected to liberate yourself from to deconstruct. So, the gremlin or the hitchhiker is what's being reflected, which is not you, and that's the deconstruction project. Nice. And you can see, like, that example you gave of me a couple of months ago is, like, six, seven now months ago, that, that's more of that gremlin or hitchhiker energy that is defending. Well, it's you teaming up with the hitchhiker. It's me. Yeah. Yeah, it's yeah. It's like, I am this. So, if you're coming at that, you're coming at me, and I will defend us both. Yeah.  Hold up. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, you, in the analogy, you could say that, like, the sticker paper that is white is I, capital I, capital S, self, God. And then you have this, like, sticker that's on the sticker paper that's sort of like this, like, atlas face. And it can, you know, and it has its, like, little, like twist in it, that's all of the different conditioning and separation ego structure that's been built up. And to peel away that the gremlin-ness or the hitchhiker-ness from I, from self, from God, to let atlas be pure in its expression and not in its, so get that little sticker paper or another analogy I've been to recently used was the tree and the vines. Nice. Which was another really good one. So, this tree-ness is I, self, God. And then this vine-ness is the hitchhiker, the ego, the gremlin. And it's just, it all it is, is just an increase in awareness of when you're expressing yourself from a place of vine-ness or sticker-ness versus when you express yourself from a place of sticker paper or tree-ness. And then just, like, shifting. The shift. Yeah. Nice. Just shifting, the shift and shifting, because it is both realization, conviction, but it's also ongoing purification. Exactly. Yeah. Both. Simultaneity of both. Yeah. And I think, like, the shift, if we were to say there is a shift that can be made, it's just reallocating what you identify with. Like, when you say I, what do you mean? Like, if people could see that when I say I, I mean Corey and this body and the clothes that I wear and my history and my personality and my sense of how things should be. And so, if I'm calling all of that Corey or I, if I'm calling all of that I, that's the stuff that if that gets threatened or poked at or then I get offended or I get triggered or I get upset or it feels threatening. But if I am the one that is aware of all that or capital I, white paper, if that's actually what I believe I am and that I, that is real for me. That it's not just like, yeah, I am, I'm God ultimately. I know that I am the one infinite creator. No, I actually have my identity. Like, when I feel I, it's like the one who knows the one who is aware, the one who can opt for these different variables in my life. But those are not me. So if it's the one who has choice, the one who knows, then this stuff can get poked at and it's like, oh, interesting. Really? Like, there's no, there's no texture. It's all optional. Your, your identity is not enravelled or intertwined with, with the psychology or conditioning. With the objects. Yeah. So the subject is not intertwined with the object. Nice. Yeah. So that would be the shift if we were going to say to make like a shift of peeling the sticker off the paper, it's to reallocate your identity onto what I actually is. Sweet. Yeah. Sweet, sweet. And yeah, that makes it so much easier than to get to the onion layers because it's not you then. Yeah.  Like, it's a, yeah. It's a simulation of constructing of psychology and then a deconstructing of it. Totally. Like our own little personalized, like realization room or escape room, if you will. And that makes it really like cute and fun and playful. And it's just way different than when it's heavy and dense. And I've gotten reflected that several times too, is a turning it into a dense thing. Nice. So bad. It's, it's surprising with you because you are so sort of silly and, yeah. And open and light and, but yeah, when it comes to some of these processes where you are still identified, it, you do have sort of a dense reaction to it. But it's another thing with you. It's just a giveaway. It's like, nice. We found one. Here we go. What's wrong? Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so good. And so then, yeah, anytime you're like still, yeah, like feeling a denseness in your, in like the unraveling or unwinding of your conditioning to, to like, let go of that. Just let go of it. Let go of the denseness. And notice that the denseness is just coming from a place of wanting to be seen. Almost always it's just coming from wanting to be validated or seen. Look at me and what process I'm going through. And yeah, that or I think also very common is to be just to feel safe. So for a lot of people, it's for you, I think it's a be seen thing. For me, it's a be seen thing. But for a lot of people, it's actually to like, protect, be almost be unseen. Like to be just to be safe, to be not exposed to kind of cocoon. Denseness. Yeah. Kind of cocoon. Yeah. It's just serious. It's like serious gravity, like just like sort of take themself off the map. Oh, so to retreat. Yeah. Or to be, or just to make things sort of serious and significant. And it's not, yeah, I have people in mind that I don't want to don't want to get into that. But like where, so you'll see this, you'll give someone a reflection who's normally upbeat and like, and suddenly it's just like, oh, and it's like this, it's like suddenly like super like, oh, you don't want to go there. We don't want to, it's just like the seriousness where it's just like, it's to be not seen. It's to not be exposed.   Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's all a defense mechanism for sure. Yeah. Just different ones, but cool. Go ahead. Okay. Sweet. Yeah, let's, okay, let's talk a little bit more. Another word that I think is helpful here is honor. That's been, there's the honor retreat where Bentino and Honor Rock really unpack what they feel honor is and also for those that were attending to just realize themselves directly what it is. To me, I defined it as just pure service is how I defined it. And so like honor would be like only seeing the whole and only coming from wanting to serve the whole like awakening to itself. And the word purity there is really important because then you're not doing it from again, from a place of wanting to be seen or whatnot, but you're just doing it to serve the whole. So, so honor playing into this process that we've been talking about with the construction project honors, you could say the, the active participation in the deconstruction project from a place that's empty of self interest. Cool. Do you feel resonant with that? I think so. Can you say it again? So honor is what motivates you basically to do the deconstruction process? Yeah, to serve others in their deconstruction projects while you're empty of self interest in that process. Is honor? Yeah, it could be a way to view honor. Honor showing up on the soccer field to play the game, which is the deconstruction project, but empty of self interest only to win the game together as a whole. Okay. The deconstruction project now feels too limiting to say that's what honor is, to say that honor is because not necessarily probably usually, but and I liked in the honor retreat, Honorog and Ben actually declined, like they decided not to define honor because if you're, if you define it, you can, you can find loopholes, you can, it becomes something that you can sort of just like qualify for yourself and like, here's honor and I am acting with honor if XYZ and it's just like you have, but honor actually, it's, it's a living barometer for, I would say, I liked your first definition. How? Pure service. Yeah. Like if, like, how constituted you are in service to others or service to all. And yeah. And for sure that motivates doing the deconstruction project. Yeah. For sure. I love that. So deconstruction project is actually only a component of, so how constituted you are in service to others or the all. Right. I mean, I love that. That's great. But I like, what I like is to not defend. I do, that's stuck with me, like cool, tune into it afresh every single time. Like what is honor now and what is honor now and what is honor now and what if you reach six density and there's some new angle on service and suddenly it's not about service to all their service to others and like who knows. So how would honor apply then? Yeah. So I like honor as a living thing that you just tune into and you can. It's just, it has this like. I love that. Yeah. Refresh rate on honor. Yes. Nice. Yeah. Just like infinity or God. Yes. You just, there's no way to put any, you can't attach anything to that. Nice. Just, you can't. And same thing with honor. I love that. Yeah, me too. Great. And I have a similar feeling with purity. Like purity is just like what is pure actually and not to be and not to call it like empty of ego or none of that. Like just what is purity? Just tune into it from scratch and get that the innocence of it.  That's great. It's so good. And then to, yeah, I like in super accelerated living, which is one of the books Bantini wrote that the focus on like the refresh rate and like your presence constantly being generated by your preference. Like you constantly just choose what you want to radiate and like you think in future presence and not like now because now is just the past thoughts that led to now.  Like other people being like, dude, that was a great conversation that helped me in this way or that way. I talked to my friend about it. Living like that. Nice. So you wake up and now like every day is like future presence. It's like all future presence. Like I'm thinking about the meetings we have later and those going really well. That's great. And things like that. And then and then same thing with like honor or purity or God or infinity is that there's no there's no way it's so fresh. It's to treat it that fresh is it's so liberating because nothing ever gets fixated or like grasped onto in the I used to be like that. And you guys saw that a lot. Like in my first, especially a couple of months here. And the whole thing she brought up about jargon that Corey brought up. Oh my gosh. So like you like to not get fixated on jargon and to not get conceptual. I see what you're. Yeah. Because you can hook on to you heard me. I was saying see as God sees so much.  Put that up stars, bright lights. Yeah. And so to like let go of any fixation on symbology and to keep a refresh rate because then it's like constantly coming from the spaciousness and availability to serve in whatever way shows up. And then you could say that that is that honor or whatever. Nice. Yeah, perfect. Nice. Nice throwback to super accelerated living too. Yeah. So powerful. We'll have a video deploying on the channel soon where Ben reads the top quotes of super accelerated living and also spiritual conversation that's awesome. Exactly. So good. And then we'll be promoting those books that way. That's so good. Both such timeless masterpieces. It's so good to get them out. Yeah. Yeah. Timeless is right. As you were replanting or reiterating the super accelerated living, it's like Tim, that stuff never gets old. It's been years and it's all about the state change to what Ben says in there because the thing is you read you open the book and then you go back to normal Alice. You can't do that. Like the whole point is for you to change like your presence and change that those habits like to just be future present and to just constantly be pasting oneness onto everything over and over and over again. So to like treat it that way, like that's one of the best things about like self development and whatnot is to like take those habit changers, the patterns of the way you express yourself seriously and playfully. But then do it. Do it. And like take them all the way. Like people stop so quick with those. It's like a two week practice. But man, those things are so powerful actually. Yeah. Yeah. I still use I still use that stuff. It's every time like even just this one future presence. I love that. So good. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Such a good way to put it. I even feel like, yeah, I should read. I should read one of them. Do it. It's so good. Oh my God. I love these gloves. Okay. Yeah. Here. Place everything you desire in your past a little while ago and feel what that was like. And then and then this one to be in the future generates more presence than to be in the present, which is based on the past. So good. Such gold. Yep. To be all in means that your only priority is to always manage your state of being. That's so cool. So timeless. Yeah. So good. Like your only priority is to manage your state of being. This is full circle to what we were talking about before. Like, like being in inside of the heat, like being sort of closer and closer and closer to the core and like leading by example is having that like second to second microsecond to or millisecond to millisecond awareness of just like, where am I coming from? Like just to be on point with your vibration with your state of being. That's really the work like that at first it's gross. And you're like first it's just your it's you're getting seeds planted and it's take it or leave it. And then it gets like intense and chaotic and stuff is getting purged. And then you get this this layer of accountability and honor and purity. And like, I am 100% responsible for managing my vibration now and now and now and now and tracking it and being and being accountable for it. Like if something's off, I'm handling that now. Now this is what this is top priority. This is urgent. Yeah. Cool. What a good full circle. Because that's what it was like seven months ago or whatever. Hey, let's take it or leave it. And then it's like here in August is like, there's no taking it. You will take it. Take it or leave. Take it or leave. Take it or leave it. And then it's manage your vibrational state always vibrational attitude is what it was called. Cool. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, managing your vibrational attitude moment to moment, your accountability. Yeah, for that. Yeah. So cool. Yeah, which I think it's been cool to see you like having fielded some intense reflections, some real like, peel that sticker paper off the, peel the sticker off the sticker paper reflections. And for you to get that context of like, oh, that's where I was coming from.  Yeah. And like to call it out now and now and now and now, because it's not like that stuff just goes away when you see it immediately. It's like, oh, I'm doing it. I'm doing it again. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what makes you reliable. Like that.  Even we just had a session a couple nights ago with the team just talking and I could tell that like the quality of my expression went from something that was like really pure in service to the whole. And then after a couple more shares, it like went to, I just literally said this to be seen.  Like, okay. Now I see that what happened. It was just a slip in awareness. Really? It's just, it's just a slip in awareness. Like at the end, it's just like you get too caught up in the fixation of, I'm going to say this right now. So good. Now you're in the work. Like when I see that, it's like, now you're doing it. Now you have, you can like, you can, this is a private process now. Like you, now you're sort of beyond the need of like the intervention or the call out or the like the harsh reflection. Like you're beyond that. Like now you can just, you know, that's a cool, I didn't realize until this conversation, but there is like, that's, you get to this harmony or this sort of flowiness where you, your walls are down, like your, your guard is down. And so stuff can just come up and you can be like, and it's light and it's, and you want to see it and you're not sort of actively defending it. You're not offendable. You're not, it's not that same sort of, yeah, I think, I think that offendable, like the fact that you have to like go through that phase of like purging all your triggers is what intimidates people the most about spirituality or about this work. Like having to, like I'm going to have to get called out and get offended and get, you know, have all my stuff be seen in front of people and, but then after you cross that and see what it really is and that it's just about letting the guard down, just like putting my cards down and just being like, damn, I am, I'm sabotaging this meeting right now. I'm manipulating just to get a leg up in this conversation right now. And like this, just putting your cards down and seeing it, that's all it takes. That's it. And it feels good. And you feel connected. And it's like, it's, I mean, if that, if people could see that it's not this life-writening purge, it's actually this relief that we've all been nice wanting. I think we'd have more, more staying power in the community. Yeah. Good job. Yeah, you did so good. Yeah, you too. Such a good convo. I love that bit on relief. Yeah. Because it's just a relief from separation. Totally. It's so, there's nothing better. Yeah. Such a good convo, Corey. Thank you. Fun. Yeah. Thanks for joining us on the show. Thank you for having me. So cool. I look forward to more of these convos and especially like with No Limit Society blossoming in the way that it is, we can sort of leverage the platform of communicating on the web and through video to our audience as well as to Bintinho. Bintinho just hit 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. Very cool. Very cool. Love it. Yeah. And so we can keep sharing these types of dialogues to our audience and then also to inspire people to check out No Limit Society. Sort of, we can update people about like what's happening here, like these things that we were talking about with the KDA guides, like this type of things. It's really cool and do that. So the link in the bio will be to No Limit Society. Also to Corey's Instagram is probably a good place to follow Corey. Sure. Yep. So we'll have Corey's Instagram link down there and we'll put super accelerated living as well in spiritual conversation with a skeptic down there. Also Ben's YouTube channel we'll put down there. Any other thoughts or links that we should put? I don't think so. It was pretty good. Yeah. Nice first pod. Hey. So good. All right. Thanks everyone for tuning in. We love you. Thank you. Thanks guys. Thank you. Drop us a comment below with your thoughts on that episode. We'd love to hear from you and like the video, helps algorithm. Subscribe if you haven't to the channel and yeah, share the video also with people that you feel like this would resonate with. Let's get the word out. That purification vibe. All right. Much love everyone. Thank you. See you soon. Later.


I would remind the right honoured gentlemen that for 44 years of its 71 years of glorious existence it is the NHS that has benefited from conservative policies and conservative government that unless you support wealth creation, unless you believe in British business and British enterprise and British industry you will not have the fund. Unless you have a strong economy, you will not be able to pay for a fantastic NHS, Mr Speaker. And that is a lesson that the honoured gentlemen—the right honoured gentlemen simply doesn't— I struggled to see the country he described in his description of the United Kingdom today, because the reality is that unemployment is, of course, down under the conservative to the lowest level since the 90s, and crime is actually down a third since 2010. We have record investment, record inward investment in this country, £1.3 trillion. That's fantastic new electric car factories.  Calm yourself, man, very irate, because you feel passionately and I respect your passion, but I don't respect your delinquency. Calm yourself, man, take some sort of soothing medicament and you'll feel better as a consequence. The Prime Minister. Ikai, they don't like it, but the truth is that more homes built in this country last year than in any year. Wages are now outperforming inflation for the first time in a decade. The living wage, a conservative policy, is to say, which I am proud to say, I championed in London and was then stolen by our wonderful Conservative Government, put into a national policy. The living wage has expanded the incomes of those who receive it by £4,500 since 2010. That is a fantastic achievement, and it is a conservative achievement. The right hon. Gentleman asks about trust, and who can you trust to run? He asks about Iran, Mr Speaker. A right hon. Gentleman who has been paid by press TV and repeatedly sides with the mullers of Tehran, rather than our friends in the United States over what is happening in the Persian Gulf. How incredible that we should even think of entrusting that gentleman with the stewardship of this country's security. Worse than that by far, this is a right hon. Gentleman who is set on an economic policy together with the shadow Chancellor who was sacked by Ken Livingstone for being too left wing. He forged a budget, sacked for forging a budget. He would raise taxes on inheritance, Mr Speaker. He would raise taxes on pensions. I am answering. I am telling you, Mr Speaker. Order! Order! Order! Order! Order! Mr Lavery, you are another over excitable denizen of the House. Calm yourself. It would be therapeutic for you to do so. There is far too much noise on both sides of the House, and I fear that the noise on the front bench is proving contagious. I note certain back benches who are becoming over excitable, and they must restrain themselves. I know that the Prime Minister will of course be both passionate and restrain the Prime Minister. It is only with an effort that I can master my feelings here, Mr Speaker, because the right hon. Gentleman will not only put up taxes on inheritance and pensions and corporations, but he will put up taxes on income to 50p in the back. He is the forger of the budget of 1984, Mr Speaker. He will give him a chance. He will put up taxes not just on homes, but on gardens, Mr Speaker. He speaks about trust in our democracy. I have to say that most extraordinary thing has just happened today. Did anybody notice what happened today? Did anybody notice the terrible metamorphosis that took place, like the final scene of invasion of the body snatchers? At last, this long-standing Eurosceptic, the right hon. Gentleman has been captured, he has been jugulated, he has been reprogrammed by his hon. friends, and he has been turned now into a Romainer. He has turned labour into the party in all the flip-flops he has performed in his turkey-versating career. That is the one for which I think he will pay the highest price, because he is this party now, this party, this government that is clearly on the side of democracy. It is this party that is on the side of the people who voted so overwhelmingly in 2016. It is this party that will deliver the mandate that they gave to this Parliament, and which, by the way, this Parliament promised time and time and time again to deliver. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman and all his colleagues promised to deliver it. The reality now is that we are the party of the people. We are the party of the many, and they are the party of the few. We will take this country forward. They, Mr Speaker, will take it backwards.