All right, thank you. So here we are people. This is Thursday, January 28th and this is Senate government operations. We are here today our topic until I believe about 315 is going to be on elections and What we have done is We've asked for people to send in their wish list of elections and so we have gotten wish lists from the Secretary of State's office from v. Perg and a number of Groups that got together and submitted one list from I think we got some from a Couple of the parties. I can't remember offhand Individual legislators have sent us our committee has generated some And we put them all together in a list that is Hosted there are a couple things a couple that are missing on there and that's I take responsibility for that because what happened is that As people sent me their lists, I would update the list But then I would update an old list and so sometimes some things got forgotten I think we now have everything either on the list or as a supplement to the list and What we're going to do the way the way I thought we would do this This is a huge issue and if we're going to do anything with elections at all It has to be done this year because we can't we can't monkey around with elections during an election year so we have to have Anything that we do has to be completed by crossover and just to keep us on track I'm aiming for a date of February 19 I know that's a couple weeks before we have to have it done But if we set that as a kind of a deadline for ourselves, then We'll have a little slush time and then there if we need it. So that's And the way I thought we would do this is that today we will hear from People who have lists and concerns and just With their their suggestions for us there would be the Secretary of State be per the parties the League of Women voters the political parties, I mean and and then we'll then what we'll do is The committee will go through When we get the final list the committee will go through them and then There may be some that are Simply beyond our control to do anything about that we can't do or that And we'll just cross those off or things that maybe we've already done before that But that people can agree on and we'll just do that and then we'll Start dividing them up and I kind of divided them up and this is a little premature but I kind of divided them up into a couple different areas kind of the General the huge issue of mail out and then the general election the primaries the admin Pieces and then kind of miscellaneous changes. So with that I Don't want to start going I want to start hearing from Committee do any of you have any questions about that so far? I Normally we allow only committee members to do it But Deb I'll make an exception this time because you don't usually come before the committee But what was your question? Thank you, Jeanette for that I'm just wondering in order to set the table or the stage for this here. Can you tell me what's driving this conversation? Every the need for change every year every non election year we look at making slight changes to to the elections law some of them come from the Secretary of State's office for cleanup some of them come from the town clerks Because there are things that they want to do there are some things that we learned in here like maybe Early processing that the town Turks have asked us to look at again for permanent changes. So Probably every other year I would say we we do elections cleanup. Perfect. Thank you so much. Yeah So with that, I think what we'll do is we'll start with kind of a Less setting the stage for us from the Secretary of State's office and then we'll move on to other people and what I would say is that don't I Know this is going to be really hard for everybody, but don't give a lot of arguments for your Issues just tell us what your issues are and kind of just a very brief snapshot because we will be looking at the issues More in-depth later. Does that make sense if we get into if we start getting into long this Arguments for a particular position we won't get through this today So that's that's what I would like to do it if everybody is okay with that committee Okay, you're the These I hate these zoom meetings and normally when we look at the committee We're kind of around the table. I can see them, but I have to look all over my screen and I can only see 16 people So if they're more here, I can't see them. So All right, we'll shout out and say good idea Secretary of State would you like to Start and I'm not sure how you've divided this up, but it's yours right now Okay, thank you very much I'm going to try to be brief and I'm going to try to stay at a high level senator white So following discussions with interested stakeholders throughout the late fall Last in the last couple of months and testimony that's already been provided to this committee We believe there is some common ground that has been found on on some of the items related to mailing ballots to voters Between our office between advocates and between town clerks We believe that implementation of these reforms is achievable and we would represent a significant step forward towards The vote by mail system permanently Additional reforms related to mailing ballots may become practical and may make sense over time But we believe that we can't you can't jam it all into one one session, I think And and we think that this the what I'm going to highlight to you right now is is kind of a common-sense approach to ballot mailing Following the 2020 election As many have recognized the 2020 general election was one of the safest most secure and most accessible Elections that we've ever held here in Vermont It also was one of the smoothest from the standpoint of operationally Having said that we believe that ballots mailed centrally by the Secretary of State to all active voters by a certain Certain date with postage paid in both directions is is a smart Move to make we believe that the ballots should be returned to Individual clerks offices for processing just as we did this year We believe that for the August primary because that is a completely different type of election Well, we should continue with using a Postcard request type system And that we believe that it's It would be proactive to Permanently offer the option to municipalities to again, it's an option to Mailing ballots out to their customer to their voters for local elections The second item on our list is is the allowance for early processing during the 30 days preceding the election This worked extremely well as you probably are well aware Current law says that it's one day before but We were one of the states that had 98% of our locals local ballot counts in in to the to the state by midnight on election night And we're pretty proud of that and I just came from a call with the council of state governments I'm a national co-chair for the overseas voting initiative And there were election directors as well as another my co-director a co-chair chair from Washington state and They all said the same thing that the early processing of ballots. It was is really important to make these elections work smoother Returned absentee ballots can be removed Should be allowed to be removed from the certificate envelope and deposited it into the tabulator or a ballot box depending on if it's a tabulators town or a Hand count town Voters voting in the office may deposit directly into the ballot box or into a tabulator at that point We believe that it's The need to determine there is a need to determine the time frame For a clerk to open mail mail envelopes and examine the certificate envelope and determine whether that ballot is is defective and I say this because in the early processing of 30 days before the election we had some towns that used all 30 days We had some towns that used it once a week And some down some towns that didn't do it and didn't open up the early ballots until just before the election or maybe the day before the election It's We think that there should be an opportunity to cure a defective ballot We we recognize that there are some issues that we have to discuss with the committee regarding the The primary election, but but the general election we had a very very low Probably one of the lowest we've ever had of less than One half of one percent The ballots were considered defective. We need to clarify The reasons that a ballot is defective, but I also want to caution that Vermont is already a state that has very few Reasons for a ballot to become defective We need to consider how voters are Provided notice of their ballot status if the ballot is considered defective We currently have our might my voter system my voter page on our website which Will Provide Whether the ballot's been received and should say whether it's defective or not But we need to figure out how you know the the real problem here is that if the town clerk doesn't open those ballots until just before the election It may not provide an opportunity for a Ballot for a voter to cure a ballot that may become defective So we think that there needs to be whether it's once a week or something that they have to the clerks have to Do this Determine whether about it's it's accepted or defective We also have to be cognizant and I say this With all due respect to the town clerks We have to be cognizant of the fact that we have to be careful about the administrative burdens that we provide to them But it all of these things that we've done in the past have allowed us to have a more final result Although it's still unofficial on election night We need to expand and codify the use of secured ballot drop boxes for return And also to consider how that will be funded And we need to for now I would say exclude a signature matching requirement because we don't we do not have signatures on file for any of our voters and To start that up would be very problematic, but beyond that there are many folks out in the In the political world that will tell you that signature matching is not all it's cracked up to be I can tell you that my signature is different today than it was 10 years ago I can tell you that my mother's signature. She's 93 year old Is is different than it was three years ago and So I think that signature matching is something we should be looking at but it's really something for the future not for right away We also think that postmark of ballots after election day Is something that it's a it's not a solution that we need in Vermont. We have very few Post-ballots that come back to us after the election And and if we did decide the postmark of Ballots the postmark of Election day is something that we want to look at then we have a lot of other dates that we have to move out For instance, and I'll just give you a few The the town clerks have 48 hours to get their Certification of the results that they have to our office After the election. So if we accepted postmark ballots up to three days after we'd have to change that because The Friday they they've already reported their results to us by Friday morning So we need we would have to move that date then we have a a Finalization a canvas date that is seven days after the election that would have to be moved out Then we have to look at all the recount statutes as to when recounts can be Set up or requested So all these things have to be looked at and it all has to be in conjunction especially with with a presidential election Keeping an eye on December 14th or roughly for the Electoral College So and in the interest of time, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back. I'll let Chris or will Add on anything that he might want to add at this point. We have looked at the list that came from your office Senator White and we would certainly have More comments on all the things that are listed on there. Some are some will we would oppose some we would support Some we don't know what it's requesting so there's a lot there and we would certainly defer to Having to further discussions with the committee about those items on that list, but I wanted to give you the Synopsis of of what we have had discussions with some of the advocates and and the town clerks and and These are things that we think are are doable for the for the immediate future with that I'll turn it back to you for Chris or will to Decide if they want to speak as well Thanks, and I will say that I would prefer actually if you don't comment on what the other things that were sent in at this point because we'll be taking them up We'll be looking at those in a more organized manner by topic. So at this point I Don't I don't want to say I don't care if you support them or not, but at this point we really don't We will we will later on So will they do have or Chris did you have anything to add here? I Don't have anything further madam chair I think the secretary hit the high points and we're interested to hear what what other folks have to say We'll might have something Thanks, Will No, I think I'm secretary condo city. Well, and I know you've got a lot of people who need time today Yeah, so I think that that's Exactly the way we're going to do it is people will just present their ideas and then but not Necessarily comment on anybody else's ideas that are there because we that this testimony that will begin to take later so with that Thank you secretary condos and and I Will take this one other opportunity. We do it whenever we can Just to thank the Elections Division. I know that will is looking a lot less haggard than he did a while ago and For running a really good election and and it went smoothly and I think that that was due to the Incredible work done by the secretary of state's elections division and the town clerks So we we all owe you a thank you So, thank you Thank You senator white So with that do we want to go to I think we had Paul burns on the list and I think you're representing a number of groups Yes, unless Carol Dawes is ready to I think she was ahead of me. Oh, I don't have a copy of the List here, but if you want to defer to Carol, that's just fine with me Carol, do you want to go next sure? Thank you Paul and thank you senator for for a for thanking us as clerks for the elections We couldn't have done it without the Collaboration with the secretary of state's office with the legislature with the post office. There were a lot of parties that participated So you have my memo. I'm not going to go through the memo in In detail, I'm also not going to repeat things that the secretary has already said Just a couple things that that I would point out that that we would like to To also have considered is Whatever authority might be necessary for towns to hold outdoor elections Drive-through voting that certainly worked well for us in August and November and so making sure that we had that option on Would be important We have in several times in the past talked about perhaps changing the way right in votes are tallied allowing an opportunity for candidates to Declare their right in candidacy either through the secretary of state's office or directly to a clerk On election day so that we're not having to tally Ballots votes that aren't for legitimate candidates The other thing is we would love to see a review a complete review of how the August primaries are done They are Expensive they are time-consuming. They are confusing and I think that that the voters would appreciate some Some review of that process But the one key that I wanted to say what really made this past fall Successful was flexibility By not mandating and restricting options by allowing there to be Different options that communities could could use Whatever was best for their particular community and their situation and so I think Making sure that we maintain that flexibility is is very important. Thank you Thank you. It's a shortest list. I think I've ever heard from the town for it's around the elections It's four pages And I think most of them are on the list. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Thank you Any questions for Carol committee? Okay, Paul Thank you madam chair for the record. My name is Paul Burns. I'm the executive director of VPurg the Vermont public interest research group So thanks to Carol and the rest of the clerks as well I can't say that enough for making the 2020 election as successful as it was Thanks to to the Secretary of State and his staff and all who played a significant role in that I Submitted a couple of sets of recommendations the first that I want to comment on was actually filed jointly madam chair as you mentioned and VPurg Submitted it but on behalf of our organization and I'll just list the other nine or ten AARP Vermont ACLU of Vermont conservation law foundation disability rights Vermont the legal women voters of Vermont rights and democracy Vermont conservation voters Vermont NEA and Main Street Alliance of Vermont as well got on after I submitted that so Let me run through what these recommendations are briefly these all have to do with the idea of making universally mailed ballots a permanent feature of our general elections moving forward so Five items that we think are most important or really significant priorities on this particular issue The first is Ballots automatically mailed to every active registered voter just as we saw it was done in November Number two is multiple return options the drop boxes polling places election offices, etc Number three is the importance of preserving a prepaid return Postage envelopes as was done the pre canvassing the Secretary of State a condos spoke about earlier very very important And indeed I guess I would add that as a part of that we we may want to look more at Some requirement about when ballots Come in that they that they must be pre-cambused or That some action must be taken in part to potentially determine whether there are errors or problems with those ballots that could potentially Be cured so and that gets to the fifth item, which is to add this is the only one that would really be added to the Process that was in place for the November elections some sort of a curing process so that voters who? Do the right thing submit their ballots intending them for them to be counted obviously but but Perhaps a number of them have an error that could easily be fixed or cured like failing to sign that inner envelope to give them every Opportunity to to correct that error so that their ballot could be counted many states are doing that now There are different ways of getting there we won't I know you don't want to get into the Specifics of that now, but adding a curing process is important and again that may How you go about that may necessitate some change to the pre canvassing piece as well So those are the pieces that we think are most important for 2021 Consideration so that we can be squared away for the 2022 election season, but additional items That we wanted to note was the question of whether we can count ballots that are postmarked by election day And received sometime after election day. We support looking closely at what we could do on that Secretary of State said that there are very few of these ballots that come in after election day I think that's true, and I expect that that will continue to be the case as long as we have Robust public education programs to try to encourage people to send those ballots in On time and well before the election and my organization and many others who endorse these proposals played a part in helping to educate folks but there still are some that come in after and In fact, we don't know exactly how many because there is no record kept No requirement of the clerks currently that they keep a record of how many ballots come in after so so it's an area that That we think is worthy of consideration moving forward There's another item where some states have moved to Eliminate the requirement that for the inner certificate envelope requirement I guess I should say there's more information and recommendations that we made on that but I think it's one more way that we could avoid any Unintended disenfranchisement of voters an important one that could and should I think be addressed this year is to provide greater access for people with disabilities who may receive their ballots currently electronically But but we could perhaps do more to allow them and could do more to allow them to complete fill out those ballots and Return them electronically and I will just say I'm not the expert on this but I Secretary of State's office has expressed great willingness to to work with Our colleagues and allies on this particularly at disability rights Vermont And so I expect that we will find common ground on a reasonable path forward here But but it's worth noting I think as well and then last would kind of references the point that I was just making about collecting more data Like how many ballots come in after election day is something that we may want to look at And we would add that There there might it might make sense as part of this legislation to Invite or require some sort of a report or analysis After the 2022 election So that as secretary condo said, you know, maybe we get into some of these issues after 2022 But something that would help to tee up what those next steps might be We still recognize that 2021 is a you have limited bandwidth to do some of these things Most important is to make it permanent and ideally add a curing mechanism But we can do some of these other things perhaps later out and and some sort of review or consideration of that we think might make sense and And all of our organizations recognize that the Secretary of State has made a Reasonable argument for additional resources his election staff is small Incredibly competent and incredibly hard-working and and there should be more of them And I just think that he's made a very very strong case and all of us agree with that as well That may be somewhat beyond the purview of this committee, but but worth noting and then so that's it for the universally mailed ballot recommendations I will just name quickly just a couple of other priorities that are v perg recommendations specifically One is ranked choice voting I'll note that ranked choice voting is going to be on the ballot in Burlington on town meeting day if that is approved by voters there We will urge you and your colleagues to support that Change to their charter and then ultimately we're looking at a potential change in the way that we elect our federal office holders here for the u.s. Senate and congress And president even where some states like main for instance have used ranked choice voting in those elections Four or five other states used it in presidential primaries in 2020 So that doesn't necessarily have to be a 2021 issue, but worth noting here and then finally In the way that we run our state races We have supported for the last couple of sessions a ban on corporate contributions to candidates This committee has passed that Three times the senate has passed it three times We hope the fourth time is a charm And that this year we can get the house to take it up the house government operations committee Did pass it last year, but it never made it to the floor after covet struck So banning corporate contributions and we think the flip side and by the way that was s 47 last year And s 32 was a bill to simply study ways to better to make our Our public financing system work better looking for instance at democracy dollars is one example that has worked well in seattle And we have a system that just isn't isn't being utilized isn't working right now And if we ban corporate contributions the flip side of that coin might be how can we make public financing work better? And so that was a an additional recommendation. We might say why not pair those two concepts into one bill That those were our recommendations. We certainly would be interested in weighing in on other items as you take them up Thank you, madam chair Thanks. Any questions for senator ron? Yeah, um, thank you pal for all of that I really i'm doing a lot of soul searching about how to make public finance of campaigns better You know, I don't feel like the conversation has evolved too much past vouchers for people to support local candidates in More municipal races. Have you seen any best practices around changing and simplifying? public financing of campaigns and other if I if I can interrupt there I don't think we want to get into the details Any of the issues right now? I mean we will take that is definitely on our list And we've passed it before and it will remain on the list and so I Unless you have a burning desire I would be happy to follow up senator ron. Well, we will we will take it up also So, um, yeah, when we get into the details of this But I don't I don't really want us to get into the details right now until we've heard from all the All the people who have um wish lists So I see AAR thank you paul I see AARP is here. Did you want it? Um, are you here for support or did you have something to add? Uh, thank you senator. We have a few things to add. Um, the record my name is greg marshall and i'm state director with AARP vermont I want to thank you the opportunity to comment on this First like others I want to congratulate and thank the secretary of state The small election staff and all of the town clerks and election volunteers who were able to adjust quickly to the pandemic restrictions and deliver an election Excuse me in vermont that by all standards was a great success AARP strongly supports maintaining the election changes that were implemented for the 2020 primary and general election As a result of the pandemic So automatically mailing ballots to all registered voters and allowing them to either vote from home or buy mail Or to drop their ballot at a town clerk or place in a secure election an election drop box all of these changes Made voting in vermont easier more accessible and increased voter turnout Many of our members so people's 65 and over vote more than any other age group ARPs members in vermont who voted from home by mail did so safely and securely And voter turnout across the state increased as a result The comments that we have received from our members across the state have indicated that this was not just during the pandemic Which was they were grateful for but they would love this opportunity to be able to continue to do that moving forward The pandemic definitely has shown us that a truly inclusive democracy requires us to change our whole way of thinking About society and to do so we have to broaden our mindset and reevaluate who was left out and why We have the ability to greatly expand opportunities for vermonters to participate in government by maintaining Changes both digital and non-digital that have been made to provide more access during the pandemic So maintaining these options for vermonters to vote is a top priority for a ARP Again ARP supports the secretary of state's request for funding and a staff position to support voting by mail the secretary of state needs time and resources To implement and maintain voting by mail we support ballots being mailed automatically with prepaid postage Maintaining multiple options for more mail ballots to be returned Including drop boxes and allowing ballots to be processed by election officials well in advance of election day We believe that people with disabilities should have full and independent access to the democratic process And support efforts to assure this is a true that this is true for all of our elections And I want to thank you very much for the opportunity to testify today Thank you. Thank you, and I I appreciate that everybody Is supporting the secretary of states? for the first I should say that we appreciate what v perg and AARP and the parties and all the other advocacy groups did around the election to help educate people I think it was um They were an important part of the success But I in terms of the Getting somebody else to help. I don't know where we would ever find somebody as devoted and well qualified. So just remember we might That was supposed to be a compliment to the And I did see will grin a little bit there, but so We have lila did the leak have anything that they would like to add to this You are okay. I'm sorry. I think that was uh, not expecting to be up quite so soon uh, Richard said I'm testifying on behalf of the League of Women Voters of Vermont As paul burns indicated, uh, we were one of the organizations that signed on to their recommendations that he submitted To the committee. I would just like to note that when I was looking on the Website prior to this meeting. I did not see those comments posted. So I'm not sure I think For the public it would be important. I assume the committee does have the letter that Paul was referring to Um, and I just want to quickly say to if I Have problems with my internet. It's because I have Very very poor Internet connection at my home. So I'm hoping that even with the video up I'll be able to go through this quickly Just a few points, uh to emphasize from the league's point of view Um, the league is a non-partisan political organization that It really promotes informed and active participation in government and it is very heavily involved in voter education And advocacy and I just want to stress non-partisan because um, we think that all of the issues That we're suggesting that the committee take up will Benefit all Vermonters No matter what their political affiliation is So it's important for everyone to participate everyone to be educated to understand How the election system works And very quickly I would add to everyone else who has complimented the secretary of state's office in the town clerk of Throughout the state. Um, there was an extremely difficult situation that they were dealing with a very aggressive difficult timeline The league worked very closely on education issues with the secretary of state's office and they were incredibly Responsive and helpful to making sure that voters got all the education about the new system and how it was going to work And One thing that the league worked on that that Hasn't been mentioned before is Voter registration. We don't really see any issues that have to be changed for that, but there are a few things Everyone will have to pay attention to if we start looking at how the universal mail system works Just to go over the points that that uh, paul mentioned We support the idea of all voters being sent the general election ballot, um, I think that for the primary, um, there Should be discussion about how that process would work. And if the postcards that were sent, uh, this past selection cycle were a good idea He's saying that all voters will get the of The ballots Is not totally Realistic or true. There still has to be A sort of backup process for people who have moved people who register after The central mailing occurs and I think that was confusing for people In this past cycle to see how the existing Early absentee voter process worked in conjunction with the mailing. So I think you know, it's important to Take a good look at that so that new voters Understand what their options are And how they can get ballots to mail in Excuse me We also support the multiple return options for the ballots that are sent out We think it's extremely important to have the prepaid postage It's also Very important to have the precandesing that several people have already discussed And that ties into one of the the really Important issues for the league, which is the opportunity to cure the defective ballots And I think everybody recognizes that the two have to be considered together and that precandesing is also important just in terms of Making the system work making the system work for the town clerks For everybody involved and As paul mentioned Access for people with disabilities is an issue that should definitely be looked at We would also encourage the Committee to talk to disability rights from on about that. I understand that there are issues around possible electronic return of ballots that are sent to the military overseas and so That would be a part of looking at to In a system of how to have voting electronically and Finally, we do think that for Things that the committee doesn't decide to do with the legislature doesn't decide to do this year. It would be extremely important to collect and study data to determine what is going on in vermont now with respect to issues like the receipt of ballots after The election date how prevalent that is and how that might be changed Would be very important to us so knowing the committee doesn't want to hear On the these issues. Those are really our our main Considerations that we think that the committee should be looking at this year Thank you. Lila. It isn't that we don't want to hear the arguments. It's that we want to get a complete list first so that we can look at them together and So that we're not having Our arguments for and against things in kind of a hodgepodge way, but that we can take them in a coordinated way So I appreciate that I didn't mean to suggest you would not listen to the To the various arguments and to the various possible solutions as well We do try to listen, but Yes, I don't think we often don't well enough, but so I see we also invited The political parties and I see we have somebody here from the republican party the democratic party Is there someone here representing the progressive? party I don't I don't think so unless I don't know who So with that, um, should we go to the republican party first? and I don't know deb or pat how you're How you want to do it and remember we're we're giving our lists of our wish list here rather than commenting on things that are already Um proposed so take it away the two of you Well, if I could madam chair, I'm here actually as president of campaign for vermont. So I will turn it over to deb Because I have not heard from campaign for vermont, but I sent a thing out Well, I'm happy to we we sent we sent written comments and I'm here just to listen and to add anything that I could oh great great. That's great. So let's go to deb and then Bruce Olson and then back to you pat for campaign for vermont. Is that okay? Okay, great. Okay dem. All right. Thank you senator white. Thank you for inviting me to this uh, very important discussion. Um This is more of an educational moment for me than anything else. I did Send in a list of items that the vermont republican party might be interested It did not make the window of opportunity to get added to your list today But gale does have a copy of this and I believe I sent it to um One of our senators as well and it will be added Okay, thank thank you for that. So with that being said, I'm not going to go through my list It's 15 items or more. So and we're already into this meeting 45 minutes So I'm going to try to keep my time very short here. Um This is a very interesting conversation. I I think I think Every one of us wants to make sure that we have the maximum voter integrity That we can embed in our election process I do believe that um the november election in vermont went off very well due to the dedication of vermonters And all the people involved. So I I I think we can you know, that's something we can all be proud of And I do support any modifications to the process Provided that they continue to as I said increase the integrity of the voting system in the state of vermont And With that, I'm going to hand it back to you. Thank you Thank you. And I guess I apologize that I didn't get the list in time to Get it on but I will I will get it and I will add it to this ever-growing list brian senator colomore Thank you, madam chair Deb billard's list is on our website right now. Okay, but You you know my my little way of making lists and categories is um a little Antiquated here, but so I will I will definitely look at that. Thank you senator colomore um Bruce okay Thank you, madam chair and members of the committee for this opportunity to participate in initial discussions about possible Election law changes. My name is Bruce Olson. I'm chair of the vermont democratic party And I first want to echo the comments of earlier speakers About the remarkable work that secretary condos his staff and the town clerks did In terms of implementing a vote by mail for the first time during a pandemic this past year We think they did a remarkable job under very trying circumstances and There may be some tweaks that we need to make to this system But they did a phenomenal job And the first time is never easy and our hats go off to them I'm going to be fairly brief. We've just submitted a few things that we think are important in terms of our priorities we can go into More detail at a later time But first and foremost is the continuation of a universal vote by mail And we add the option of making sure that vermonters can also vote on election day In their talent offices. We know that many vermonters like that idea. They like the um Kind of the ritual of going to the voting booth and and participating on election day We don't want to see that in but we support a universal vote by mail primarily because It had such a significant increase in voter turnout and that results in our view in a more sound democracy So that is really the intent of having you know that type of system We did it because there was a pandemic this year But I know where I live when I woke up on election day There's a half a foot of snow on the ground and for many vermonters that can be an impediment when they have to get kids Off the school go to work. They may be informed in some way, you know that And that's always a difficult challenge to get out and vote And so we think that if they have that opportunity to do it ahead of time That's a good thing for for everybody and for our democracy We also know that the secondary state's office took on this challenge But they we have to think about whether they need additional staff Whether they need technological upgrades in their systems We know this is a problem throughout the vermont government in terms of the department of labor We see that with unemployment compensation with the motor vehicle system You know, it's a very tenuous and kind of old system that the state is working with In in order to have not only a safe election, but a secure election that all vermonters feel confident in We think that we have to make sure that there's sufficient funding to maintain An up-to-date technological system, particularly if we want at some point to expand any type of electronic voting system We reserve comment on that because we don't know enough about us to what that would look like at this time But we know that it was used for overseas and for military balloting But if we were to expand it domestically, we would like to see more details of that before we have any comments We certainly support a caring process. We got complaints from voters who said I voted all my life I'm a registered voter. I made one mistake in submitting my ballot And now my ballot is not going to count and you know to us that's that's a I don't want to say it's a crime, but it's It's something that should not be allowed to happen that somebody who makes an honest mistake Should be able to go back correct their ballot and make sure that their voice is heard in our democratic process The last thing I want to comment on is that we've seen many times where candidates vote in a primary Excuse me. They run in a primary in one party And then when it comes to the general election, they change the primary part of what we call the principal party affiliation and We've got complaints from democrats from non-democrats that say well, they don't understand that why is it that somebody assessor Say party a in the primary But when it becomes a general election, they're party b And you know, it's almost like a kind of a truth and advertising issue If you aren't going to be in one party in the primary, that should be your principal Party in the general election now We're not saying that you cannot have another endorsement from another political party in the general election But if you're in party a in the primary, you should be party a as your principal Ballot line in the general election and with a slash for party b if you're co endorsed by another party That's quickly kind of over you some of our main concerns. We will certainly be ready to testify and give additional information concerning uh in our views concerning More technical aspects of vote by mail and other issues at a later time I'd be happy to answer any questions that the committee has Thank you. Any questions committee members Thank you bruce. Okay. I think we'll go to half for campaign for vermont and i'm very happy because I had not seen your Your response You are muted People have been trying to do that to you for a long time. I know exactly silence me forget it Yeah, but anyway, thank you senator for including us. We sent you a note that we would participate and I just sent the Our list today. So it was my fault But I wanted to add kudos Oh for the record. I'm the president of camping for vermont and we wanted to add kudos to the secretary of state and to the town clerk's they it's just an amazing process um, the only thing I heard that um, uh, we have on our list that no one else has has Talked about is the voter checklist itself We know we've been very overly conservative. I think with that list forever And I think we should take a look at it to see if there's a way that it is not quite so inflated Since particularly since we have same-day registration if we make a mistake It's easy enough to put somebody back on the list. Um, and I think that There'll be a lot of money saved a lot of time and effort saved to take a look at that list other than that I agree with everything we've heard today and We look forward to seeing the list and and adding our comments and I appreciate your including with some of them Thanks. Thank you and I will get those three missing lists together with all the others and So thank you. So what I would like to do now committee I believe unless anybody has any specific questions for anybody. I'd like to try to How get us in a committee discussion to organize our next steps on this because this is a huge Undertaking and if we're going to do anything we have to we have to be Organized and efficient about it. So what what I have done up to this point is I've made I made those categories before but now I've made Six different categories Um that and Here here's the categories that I've made now in terms of going forward Are there any that any of these suggestions that we can just automatically eliminate? Are there any that we agree on and that maybe we've passed before and Can just agree on or that would take very little conversation Then um, I think that the biggest Issue here before us And the most philosophical change is that uh continuing the automatic mail out to all voters So that's another category then there are there's a category that um are there Areas they're things that would apply To mail in votes whether they're automatic or just by Request such as the elimination of the inner envelope the expansion for electronic returns multiple Return options use of drop boxes the postmark and early processing those are issues that whether we went with automatic Mail out to everybody or not our issues that we should look at because they will affect Mail in votes Um, regardless of whether they're it's automatic to everybody Then there's a category of kind of administrative changes that will affect town clerks, particularly, I think the issue of nicknames on ballots curing of ballots the signature verification um the counting of write-ins the defective Define defective ballots and consistent polling hours across the state Then there's a category that's administrative, but it's a little broader than just that um kind of beyond maybe the town clerks And that's uh the suggestion to have only one checklist not to have a checklist But in each town Translation services and the collection of data Uh Then there's kind of these uh some miss very miscellaneous ones and that's um The town clerk's independence from the select board The review of major party requirements and the faithless electoral issue and I have no idea what that even means It came in from somebody and I think it's for the electoral college, but I have no idea What what that is so um those are Uh, those are some of the The way I tried to break down the issues does that make any sense to committee members at all? to Sure Yes, I I think it's like one of those surveys you take with if yes here you go to Down here.  I think it it it's good Actually, it's great because if we decide not to do one thing it means there's a whole lot of things Then we don't have to discuss but Yeah, go ahead. Senator rom I'm fine. I think jim. Uh secretary condos had his hand up, but I'm okay. Well, I'm asking committee members first Oh, so I mean generally I would agree. I think that's um a good approach I have heard a lot about the faithless elector piece as a member of the electoral college this year I don't think there's any particular changes We need to make there. There was a supreme court case around it But I I think if the committee's interested it's an interesting conversation about The way that the electoral college isn't very standard across the states electors have very different rules They fall under in each state, but it's more. Yeah, I don't I don't think we have time to go there so senator plena I think what you outlined is good. It's a lot Which is not not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a lot to wait through I hope that we can come up with ones that we think we can move forward together on because there's general agreement on that Would help us feel if you build some momentum and get going on it It's just going back to the senator rom. I mean about the electoral college. I mean we did pass National popular vote in the state of america that that relates to that a little bit anyway We've made it clear that we'd rather see national popular vote Right so oh, okay senator condos. I mean secretary condos. Did you have a comment? Yeah, I just want to just remind the committee That everything that may be proposed may have a price tag to it and that is something that has to be considered because Remember that for the most part We only receive $150 roughly $450,000 an election cycle for ballot printing and that is Based off the hava 2002 When the money came out in 2004 or six We we were not able to assume the cost of stuff we were already doing so that is the previous set of ballots that we we get Going forward Like this past election we had specific Of federal money that came to us to allow us to do what we did We don't have enough money to do this even Even in the future I I would agree but as we go through the issues that will be one of the questions that gets asked is Can it be done within our current budget standards? And I mean that is going to have to be asked for Many of these not just will did you have a comment? Very quickly senator white I would just encourage I just want to point out obviously this the reforms we're talking about are very important to me And are going to have a huge effect on how elections run. I wanted to point out that I think that There are a number of the critically important and kind of central items that are common across a lot of these lists That we support that The coalition of advocates support and that the clerk support and I just hope that the committee Will pay attention to the items that seem to be supported by almost everybody in this room right now Testifying to the committee. I think At some point it would be helpful to show what items are common across these lists and agreed to by all of the interested parties Um, I guess we could somehow do that. I thought that that would probably become obvious when we took testimony on different issues but So if Are there any On this on the list that we currently have and I haven't seen the List from the two parties or campaign for vermont, but are there any on The lists that we currently had that we can eliminate and I can think of one right off hand The 16 year old vote that would take a constitutional amendment We can't do constitutional amendments this year, right, right. So can we cross that one off? Yes Committee All right, so gone Okay, the um Um Keisha Senator rom you seem to indicate that there really wasn't anything around the faithless electoral issue Someone else could speak up, but uh, we'll I'll let will speak up. I mean, I think okay No, who brought that up or or what they wanted Just very quickly. I think it's a it's a fine subject to consider I want to make sure the committee's aware we have language in the law number one the national popular vote You adopted a while ago But also within the presidential election statute where it talks about the electors and the decisions they make It's actually the very last sentence in the sub chapter about presidential elections Says that the electors shall vote For the candidates that received the majority of the votes for the party of the candidates that received the majority Of the votes of the election So we have that language that is meant to that's meant to address the faithless Elector issue where it says you're tied you're voting you can't go rogue and vote against what the people in brahmat voted for It's my understanding that Those provisions are on the books in some number of states and there's question about whether they're constitutional or not Well, I don't if we have it on our our statutes and it We're not going to determine whether it's constitutional or not So I would say we take that one off the list unless anybody wants to keep it on I Would not advocate for making changes and I think what other states have done after Supreme court decision in july as they said that You can legally and you can all concurrently from wrong. You can legally charge penalties on somebody for going against The their role in the electoral college. I I no one Put me under sort of pain of Perjury and and you know financial risk to do it. I think it was a fair process that asked me to commit to Being a faithful elector and I don't think we need to add anything to that Okay, I've just crossed it off my list committee I'm all for taking it off okay I shouldn't say we also have three or four Bills in our committee now that deal with elections and my and I will make sure that anything that's in those bills Gets on the list. I think right now everything that's in those bills is also on the list, but I'll make sure That that happens So are there any issues on which we Agree that we can maybe just take off the conversation table and Do and oh first before I made a note to myself here that We were all busy thanking people And I heard will give a thank you the other day that was a really heartfelt Thank you that I hadn't heard anybody give before and that was to the postal service And I just wanted to acknowledge their role in vermont and in some states that they might not have been very cooperative But my understanding is that in vermont they were so Shout out to them. So are there any Does anybody want to revisit or do we just want to repass? The corporate contribution that we passed before and I will Remind us that it does not It is not a ban On corporate contributions. It isn't written that way. What it is is it says that only individuals can contribute to candidates and their campaigns That's all it says committee Brian senator colomer thank you madam chair. I don't think I voted for that last time even though I don't remember if you did or not I'm pretty sure you didn't And I would not again Okay, so we'll leave that on the list for now then is there anybody that um Do we have for a number of years asked for some kind of a study on public financing? Should we again ask for that? We can figure out the wording later, but Yes, I wish I think it's Yes, okay senator polina. Yes senator rom Senator polina first his senate He just said yes. I was just saying yes Oh My clarifying question is they have not given us that study or it never passed the study never made it out Why have what have we not gotten that study before? I it passed. I think um, it was s 32 and it never got through the house. Okay. Yes, I would support that kind of Allison I wish we actually had time to deal with it this session and not have to do a study But given where we are and the amount on our plate with the Continuing pandemic. I would say a study was where we ended up Senator colomar Well in deference to the secretary of state's concerns about the cost I don't assume that this is going to be a free study um, senator polina I would just say that I don't think it's necessarily a very large study either. It's more like a report Going back to what senator rum mentioned before she asked if other states have done something similar We know that main has done it and connecticut has done it and I think um, new mexico, arizona has done it So it's really a question of having somebody Talk to those folks and issue a report to us as to how other states have accomplished it. I don't think it's a huge study It's all I'm saying Okay, we'll leave that on there and then we'll find out what it is So I there is one um One on the list that I found troubling And I will just throw it out here and see what where other people are it was um a requirement that in order to be a candidate for office you had to have voted in every State or general election for which you were eligible For the four years you would be claiming residency, right? And I I I Have an issue with that because I think voting We don't require voting and I would find it Hard to require that for candidates, but I leave that up to the committee about whether you want to Have more conversation about that or not Senator parkson At least that's an issue that's actually not on our list requiring Voting it's one issue that no one raised the only this issue with the candidate So I I agree that it's troubling because we all know that favorite bumper sticker of ours that I will restrain myself from sharing verbally in this committee, but things happen and things happen Uh inexplicably and I think if we it is as much as I would like to Ensure that every candidate voted Uh, particularly in the last four years of a candidacy It's hard to require it if we don't also require voting period. I wish we sort of did require voting but um Didn't even make it on our list requiring. Yes. It is on the list No, it's only for candidates for for candidates Right, but that's candidate requiring voting for all reminders. No, it is a required that What's on the list is what I brought up. It is a requirement to run for office to be a candidate You have to have voted In the state and general elections senator colomor Well, I was going to ask that question. I I didn't understand what you were I didn't understand the question. I guess if you're going to be a candidate for any candidate for any office in vermont I guess and if you and my concern is why wouldn't we also require them to vote local elections? Well, that's my question because those are those are equally as important as State election. That was the thrust to my question. I if if running for the board of alderman or city council or the school board That you have to have voted for that in the past To me, that's a little different than a statewide office I see a distinction there and i'm not sure that I even understand what's trying to be proposed Senator ron, would you like to enlighten us? Yeah, I mean, so I had read senator white the chairwoman's sort of summary in unintended summary in um the Was it the times argus? I can't remember and um, you know, it was sort of a rundown of the committee having looked at a residency requirement before in with some definition and coming up Without that it sounded like there is no There is no actual definition of residency For the purposes of either the two years you're supposed to be a resident in your area for running for House and senate or the four years for statewide office And so, you know, I at some point just felt like the one thing I would think we would hope All candidates would do in the two or four years before they run for office is vote in those election Well, there's a distinction about being a resident and about voting Right Yes, but But we don't we don't have a definition of resident because it sounds like you didn't define it based on tax liability We know permanent residence somewhere. We we did not define it. It There are many definitions of resident for different purposes and and um it We we could stab at a definition I think it's I think in generally it feels like it should either be defined or not required But I don't we don't have a definition of what residency is. Well, it is required because it's in the constitution So it is required and we can't change that we could come up with a definition but We took we took hours and hours and hours of testimony and the only the Best thing we could come up with was that if there was a challenge It would be the courts that would decide because if somebody is away at the peace corps for three years Does that disqualify them? No, if they're in the serve military service or doctors without borders. It doesn't disqualify them If they leave for 10 months to go take care of their ailing mother In another state it does so it it is very complicated, but I I do have I mean the committee can decide you want to put this requirement in but I have a very serious issue about requiring people To vote in order to run as a candidate I mean, I think it's the one thing you could do if you were anywhere else in the you if you called vermont your mental home You could still vote there while being in washington You could but should it be required that's Allison So in lieu of a residency definition in the election statutes It is a proxy actually showing interest in In vermont and in our elections it Voting is actually a proxy for that engagement and I I have some sympathy for voting as a For requisite for being a candidate if particularly if you're living abroad So, you know, I I would hope that every candidate for every office Up and down the ticket Would be engaged enough in their community and in their state to have voted in two out of The last you know, you could you could maybe make it Two out of the last four or something but you know to not show any engagement by having voted is to me A problem and if we have no residency definition, this is a proxy for engagement Sarah polina You haven't weighed in Well, I think we're sort of mentioning these two things together residency requirement versus the need to vote in order to be allowed to run for office I think that We don't in the united states of america and vermont. We don't require people to vote Maybe that's something we should do down the road because there are certain countries where people are required to vote But another thing that's a good thing or a bad thing, but we don't do that here I don't think it makes any sense to tell somebody they have to have voted in the past in order to run for office if i'm at a I'm 25 years old and i've never voted before But i'm at a select board meeting or a town school board meeting or a legislative town hall I get inspired to run for office next year I should be allowed to run for office next year because i'm inspired by what i experienced. It's too bad. I didn't vote in the past But if I get inspired one day to run for office I shouldn't be I should be able to do that without having a Past requirement to have voted in previous elections Well, they have a different requirement at the local level for what is What you need to prove for your residency, but many of us who are young have gone through residency challenges, you know And we have had to Um at least weigh in and say how long we've lived in a certain community You know, so it might as well be standardized for us so that we're not people We're not just feeling under the threat of well. I moved from one part of burlington to another, you know as a student I think it makes it clear for you. Hey, this is what you need to be able to run Those of us who are young in politics have had people question our residency. So, you know, I'd rather have a clear definition well, I I will I can tell you right now, but I won't support this because I think that What you're saying is anybody who runs for a state? any office or you has to have voted In whatever residency it is that they're So four years they would have to have voted in every State and general election for four years That's to run statewide office to run for statewide to run for the senate or the house you would have to have voted in And I think if you're going to do that, they should have Been required to vote in their local elections also Not just in the statewide elections in their local elections because those local elections are very important So I other people can weigh in here, but I am not going to support this. I'm a voting against it. So will I see you had a Yeah, well, quick really quick just but I want to make don't want to correct the record and make sure everybody's clear There's there is a residency definition in the elections laws Title 17 has one it defines what residency means for the purpose of voter registration Question the question here is there's a lot of different residency definitions across the state statutes And it's not clear. Which one should be applied to the residency language and constitution Back when we were talking about graph People suggested that of any of those right since you're kind of in the election realm Looking at the one in title 17 might make the most sense, but that's certainly not clear And that one allows you right It's um off the top of my head intent to maintain a primary Dwelling place in the town and to return there if temporarily absent so That definition contemplates temporary absence and still having a maintenance of residency, but I'll leave it at that. I wanted to be Yeah, that you are you're right. I shouldn't have said there was no definition, but there. Yeah Yeah So committee members I if we want to continue have get more testimony on this issue I'm willing to do that I personally think there are other issues that we need to address, but um I'll leave it to the committee members if you want to take more testimony on this Star center colomar. Thank you madam chair I kind of enjoy this role. Um I'm not on the fence too often I'm either in or out and it's pretty clear to me, but I'm on the fence So I think uh with all due respect to uh To your position, which I also understand I would like to take more testimony at least understand this a little bit better before I Make a decision Thank you. Okay All right We will take more. I don't know who we will get to testify, but we will take more testimony um senator Clarkson you know if it hadn't been an issue in In a couple of elections and with a couple candidates in the last six years I killed differently, but it's it's an issue and And it you know, I think it's one we we should discuss further I'm not sure it's one will maybe have enough time to actually given the big the scale of some of the other ones But I think it's bubbled to the surface enough for us to discuss it further Okay, I think that we will really need to define this clearly then about which elections they have to have um voted in and how many Anyway, okay Senator white can I make one more quick comment on that? I'm really sorry I think if you're thinking about other people to bring in I would consider bringing in somebody maybe from the attorney general's office or a ledge council to talk about the constitutionality of such a requirement um, and then I just wanted to say to But senator Clarkson was just saying it has been an issue and I will add to that that we get a lot of questions in our office about You know what people thinking about running. What do those residency requirements mean? I don't think The answer to that necessarily is a requirement that you voted although that could be considered But I do think bringing clarity to what residency means in that context would be useful boy, I We could we could try that again. I do have to tell you that um I think senator polina and senator Clarkson were both on the And I don't know if you were there senator calmore or not, but we had hours and hours of testimony hours and Some people said you have to be here every single day of the year You can't leave some people said 181 days Some people said two years out of four so It is a an issue, but um, I don't think we're going to solve it. But anyway, okay So Are there some of these? I'm looking at the clock. Are there some of these administrative changes that are relatively Easy to address and this I'll ask committee members and carol and will That that are maybe easy to address and would make would be helpful to you But aren't big philosophical issues like the nickname on a ballot Is that a relatively simple one? Carol I think that one is relatively simple On I think the ballot drop boxes is relatively simple um, I would hope that the creating some kind of opportunity for um early processing of ballots whether it's 30 days whether it's a week whether it's two weeks whatever I think that that's something that sounded like there was universal support behind How about the clarification of defective ballots? I I think that that that definitely needs to be figured out. Um, along with The conversation around curing I think that we all want to find an opportunity to do that When we get down into the discussion about how that happens Um, there will obviously be differences of opinion clerks are concerned that we're going to be asked to somehow reach out to people Is center on um, just while we're talking about mail and balloting I I did notice that audrey climes from A national vote at home is here and I didn't know oh if she had wanted to say something So, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't um Okay, I do see um, I knew that there was that you had submitted something, but did you want to um, have say a few words I'm sorry Hello, ma'am. No problem. I can actually do you one better. Um, my ceo is actually on the line and she can speak to Uh, just a couple things that didn't really come up on the list already and we'll limit our testimony to those pieces if it's okay um But we also want to sort of stand behind the secretary and the clerks and everything that's been said today So I'm going to kick it over to amber mcrennell's if that's all right. Okay. Thank you Well, thank you madam chair and thanks audrey and thank you to everyone for uh, giving us a minute today to speak um But we're again want to congratulate vermont secretary condos the legislature for Taking initiative last year in 2020 during a very difficult year to make this process even better And I want to commend you for being I think the top The seventh highest increase in turnout of all states in the country. Um significant Many states that did mail a ballad are in that top echelon for states that saw big increases and not being a swing state Is is truly a remarkable Thing to celebrate so we're very very pleased with that Our organization is a non-partisan nonprofit And we focus on helping states improve vote by mail Access and systems and so that's our technical expertise I ran elections for 13 years in denver colorado and helped write the legislation that we ultimately passed eight years ago So we know what works. We're happy to be a resource for all of you Two things that you know, we mentioned in our testimony that we submitted that did not get talked about much today Includes ballot tracking That's an issue and a technology platform that we've been working on for many years It's actually been a system that denver colorado has used for now 11 years It's just like tracking a package through When you order something online, but for your mail ballot and it automates the notification of issues So if the ballot is undeliverable or a signature or an affidavit isn't completed properly It can automate all those notifications so that a voter can get a text or an email Right away when there's any issue and it provides that extra accountability and transparency And security for where the mail ballot is in the process So I think that's a really good item to consider in terms of a technical enhancement for vermont going forward And then of course national change of address data and sort of automating address updates broadly Is always something that we want to encourage states to do And then finally risk limiting audits This is uh, you know, a lot of states enhanced their ability to audit this year We think that's a key component of a good election system that provides that transparency and that confirmation that Everything operated the way it should and mail ballots being paper ballots are a big component as to why Risk limiting audits have been so successful in states like colorado and elsewhere that have adopted them So encouraging vermont to continue to move forward on on initiatives that expand those Opportunities is is also something that we wanted to share and encourage today And again, I just commend you all for for your willingness last year to empower secretary condos to do What needed to be done during a pandemic and you should all be very proud of of where you've put vermont in in terms of states that that provided access and then also Obviously increased turnout in a very big way. So congratulations to all of you Thank you. Thank you. And um, do I understand that we have a local resident who's working with you who could actually represent you also at some of our meetings Yeah, so certainly Audrey's our national policy director and then we do have a couple of folks in vermont that are Definitely champions for for vote at home and can be certainly available as a resource So feel free to use all of us in that in that way.  This is audrey. I think the senator you might have been mentioning Uh, uh, peter sterling who is our is our lobbyist there. Um, he sends his regards and he's been doing a great job We're just loving vermont We just want to get him in here on the hot seat Happy to do it anytime Okay, great. Those were good suggestions. Also, I they will be put onto the onto the list also So just going back, can I ask if um multiple return options isn't easy Senator colomor Thank you, madam chair. Can we go back to your first list? I was scribbling as fast as I could Um, okay, let's see. I think you mean the the kind of ones that might be Uh, that carol mentioned that might be good like, uh nicknames Yeah, so let's talk about that if we could I assume what you mean is don't well I just want to understand that somebody would not be able to use a nickname. Is that correct? Well, no, we just need to clarify what they can and can't do Oh, okay. All right. I think that's that's the question. Can you do that? Yeah, okay But just so we haven't made a decision about them But I think that carol's comment was that it probably wouldn't be that complicated to to decide What the policy is okay on nicknames and on early processing valid boxes and drop boxes and I wondered about multiple return options for because you're going to have Ballots it get mailed out whether we do an automatic mail out to everybody or not. You're going to have You're going to have Ballots it can mail back in because people request them Right, so is multiple return options an easy one to tackle. Okay. Yeah Carol do you agree will Yeah, what would be nice would be to have some clarification about a ballot that's mailed out and then brought back in person By a voter who wants to feed it into the tabulator themselves just having some clarification about process We'll put that in there and is the inner Well, I think I think that's an easy one too I was just going to note that in my mind the statute currently allows for multiple return options And it's pretty flexible in that regard But that implementing and then putting more clarity around secure drop boxes is is where that was headed I think that was language in the v perg list. I don't know if It came from many places Okay I did I purposely did not assign the comments to anybody because I wanted them to I felt it was important to not assign them because then they took on Almost a position If that makes sense Yeah So is the inner envelope is that relatively easy one or not I know a lot of states don't use the inner certificate envelope Secretary condos has his hand up. Oh, okay. Thanks I would say it's easy Remove it from the list. I mean we we do not support. We think it's a terrible idea to remove the inner envelope I I know that it's it's problematic, but it's really our only link To make sure that we get an identity Okay, well we I'm it isn't that I didn't mean easy just take it off the list because some people have suggested that it is a A solution. So I wanted to know what things are easy that might be non-controversial and relatively easy to to get settled Is there anything else on this list that? is Would be easily non controversial and easily settled so that we can As much as possible what I want to do is is go through these and not have constant conversation about them over and over and over again, but either we're going to Get rid of them because nobody agrees or we're going to Say they're easily Fixed where we can come to some easy Decisions on them like the nickname and then we don't have to keep talking about them We can get them off the list and we can go on to the things that are more controversial That's that's what I mean by easy So is there anything else on here that seems to be of that nature that is just yes, senator con secretary condos So just so the committee understands we've already Engaged with the center for civic design to look at our certificate envelope The inner envelope that the ballot goes in to Ask to ask them to help us design that Better and make it more clear more concise Okay, and so people understand we would not support When I said it was easy it was easy to remove it because no we would not support We would not support getting rid of it secretary condos We don't want the arguments now for or against all we want now is a list of things that we think are relatively non-controversial that we can Decide on and then take them off The list that one clearly has some Difference of opinions and will will address it when we put it on the agenda. Just am I You got it Making any sense here? Yep Okay, so is there anything else on that list that Is non-controversial that we could just put on for our very first discussion and just Decide on them and then they're done with that conversation to move on to the next level Is there anything else on on here that strikes anyone as very simple How many how many items did you read off madam chair? I read off multiple return options use of drop box early processing nickname and then Defective ballots and it was paired with curing, but I'm not sure that it has to be We need clarification on what is a defective ballot and whether it goes along with curing or not I don't know, but that's what I read off Okay Yep Okay, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to um I will Send out this kind of List that I made if if if people think I'm going down the wrong track here. Let me know but I think if senator Clarkson Yeah, I also think there are things on your list We could just take off the list and that way we don't even need to discuss them at all Well, what are I asked for those and nobody? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't Well, I mean they're ones that I'm not sure I understand. I mean presidential nominating process What does what does that mean? I mean, we don't well somebody Somebody submitted it so we might I would suggest Okay, I didn't hear anybody bring it up and and of all the people we've had here today It strikes me we could take that off. We could well it was on the secretary of states list Oh, it was he didn't mention it. No, he didn't but they had a long list that included a lot more detailed Okay, I don't I I would need to know what they were wanting to discuss about it I mean, I I think that it has I mean there are issues with it. There's no question, but and then Who put review of the major party requirements on the list? The secretary of state did I think that that is an issue. We're not mentioned. Okay Great, then we can discuss them. I just had heard nobody else bring them up And I thought maybe we could take those off altogether, but I guess not it's the secretary of state to put them on atlas. Well, I think that Yes, uh, senator rom and secretary condos Um, well, this is an unrelated topic.  Some of this was stuff that was brought to us Uh, when I saw your list about the presidential nominating process I to question what what does that mean because I have no idea you brought it to us. Well, we were I wouldn't say we were talking about the nominating process. We were talking about the the Um, you know, we were hearing from people that were concerned that we had 21 candidates for for president on the list this year That was I largely because of the number of of uh, I mean the the waving of signatures this year But the the other question is do we Make any changes to for instance right now? It's a I think it's a thousand signatures And there was some talk about making a 2000 signatures some talk about making a Certain counties If I can say that's why I put it on the list because there were questions about it And I I didn't put all the details on there. Maybe I should have but somebody brought up the presidential nominating process And so I put it on the list Then so clearly I guess that isn't one we can just get rid of Because there are issues around it. Am I right or not? There was just some questions that we were we wanted to raise with the committee That's why it's there I know uh, when when I spoke earlier today, I spoke with About the I highlighted just specific items that I think almost everybody agrees with Uh, as a as a real focus to go forward We could take your list and go from the top and work our way down one by one And have a discussion about each one a brief discussion take it off or leave it on That's that's what I'm trying That's what I'm trying to do right now is if there are issues here that We took off we took off the 16 year old vote because that's a constitutional issue, right? So we took it off the list We talked about taking off the um requirement to vote We decided not to take that off the list We decided not to take off campaign contributions or the public financing study We took off the faithless electoral issue because nobody because there isn't an issue there Now what we're trying to do is look at the issues That may be If we ever get to them that may be non controversial that we can just address and get rid of I mean either accept them or get rid of them I don't mean get rid of them and as in not doing anything about them, but Have the brief discussion and come to some resolution. Can people use nicknames or not? It seems pretty simple. We can just do that and then we don't ever have to talk to it about it again That it am I completely um speaking out of my ear not completely Thank you No, I think we're grappling with it. It's always difficult to have a list like this and try to grapple your way through it I think, you know, we're doing a good enough job. I really do. I think it's it's hard what we're trying to do I think we're going to send out I'm going to send it out again in a different format. So senator rom Yes, well, I mean first of all to that question Madam chair I would just say I am new to the senate but in my eight years in the house It was almost a curse to call something so simple that it didn't need any testimony or consideration So that might be why you hear some hesitancy on my part in any way to bless something as as simple So, you know, I Love simple issues, but they never are simple in the end So, you know, I think all of these merit discussion, but I'm also new So I don't know what's already taken all of your time up and in that vein I have a question and I really am asking out of Ignorance to how this process has unfolded in the past, but have you Do you usually take up local questions of non-citizen voting as charter changes completely unrelated to an elections bill Or would we know that's a that's a charter change Okay Because I think it has related questions to the residency question because Many of them have had different ideas of what you would do to have to prove That you are not a citizen, but a resident of that community So I just we can we can address some of those when we talk about that issue But we we would never take up that issue that particular issue for any town without a charter Before us right right. Yeah, so I just wanted to flag it as a visit There are pieces of that where they have I think different residency, right? components that they've put in that we should Explore with the residency question um All right, so I will tell you right now that at our next meeting I will have a list For us yet another list and you can throw away all the other lists But we will be taking up the issues of multiple return options use of drop boxes early processing nicknames presidential nominating process And the clarification of defective ballots And maybe more but does that make any sense to anybody? Yes, yes yes Okay, and there might be more on the list So anybody who wants to testify on those particular issues and anything else we put on the list for next week then Be prepared to address those issues not And and any other issues that end up on the on the thing not the issue of Should we have one? checklist statewide Oh, the other one. I think we that might be relatively simple is consistent polling hours across the state That was on somebody's list Sure. Yes, we'll take that up at the same time Yes, and I'm not implying that they're simple questions. I'm just implying that they're They aren't major philosophical changes as May allow ballots and what goes around along with them is Okay Committee, thank you and thank you for indulging me with these um all these lists and Things but kasha, I will tell you that um one of the ways that this committee passed um What I thought was a relatively um Elegant bill a number of years ago was the medical marijuana dispensaries and the way we did it is we took the lists from Everybody and in that case it was law enforcement and the advocates and we took those two lists And we put them together and we started going through the issues one by one by one by one And we came up with a really good bill Because we addressed the issues and They didn't always agree But but we came up with an answer to each of the issues And and so I just want to you know so far say I really love this I think you put out, you know far and wide casting a net for elections issues um I just didn't want my my face or my silence to say like I either agree or or disagree on something I just you know, whenever someone said something simple. I I didn't know what that meant in this committee's context, which is Oh, yeah, and it doesn't necessarily mean you agree. Yes. It just means that maybe maybe there's a solution an easy solution Right. This means they're once we can check off sooner rather than later Exactly exactly and then when we check them off we never go back to them. Exactly and might Actually, we've checked off a couple of the things on this list and I've already actually passed them out of the senate We're returning to them. I might yeah Well, I because I think senator calmer asked us to return to the Uh campaign contributions and they will just look at what the public financing study is and what it means What we passed before All right Thank you everybody for your input It was really and I hope you join us as we go forward here and I will make sure that these other three suggestions for actually because the vote at home also and campaign for vermont and The republican and democratic parties. I'll make sure that those ideas get incorporated into the list and and I realized that Some may be more weighty and have more support than others, but that doesn't mean that the the ones that aren't Acknowledged as an issue by a large number of people aren't important So So, okay. Thank you so much Now we get to deal with the retirement issues Okay, ma'am. Yes chair. We have been sitting for if I can consider what we promised ourselves. Yes We are going to take a five minute break so that we can run up and down the stairway and get a drink of water And 25 jumping jacks