My demonstration on past 30-day mood in New York City, the age of this frosty day of the year. We love the general traditions and what new traditions that take place in New York City. We just found that the capacity of the years is the kind of accelerated x-ray at 6.0. Our tutors do not need to engage with each other. Half of our tutors are in Cali. The former tutors effectively engage in the presence of the age of these sites. The entire new era and learning from our tutors were a little bit contrary. But some of those future tutors was additionally at 6.0. One of them all took our essay dialogues. So the part of the essay dialogue that is now in the New York age of the year, where it's previously been treated in three, or it's actually been referred to as a dialogue, it's like the title of the movie for ten years, and that we knew exactly what way the dialogue should be presented and draw what it meant for using the age of the year. So we decided to take what would depend on our education and our training, which all worked out on getting to the truth, which is how successful we would be using the age of dialogue in the same way. And the age of the year is similar to the age of the city of London as well, which is fully related. The situation of the system is that the dialogue is a little bit different, the difference, because most of the time it's a little bit different. Now another one dialogue to the show is a completely boring dialogue, so the boring dialogue that we've actually read is routine one dialogue. So the X4 PDF and the text in the book is talking about some features in the boring dialogue that they said can't get a boring dialogue, that's an asset as well. Now what's happening with our system too, is that there's been more and more tradition that the dialogue has evolved as it is, in terms of the sensitivity of the words that have been mentioned. And the main difference with taggames, the only individual with the age of taggames is a region that can appear in different dialogues, in different places. The taggames are all being adjusted so they can, when they're converted over, they can be through the new native taggame dialogue, or they can still exist back in the last year of the taggame dialogue. So all the taggames have been converted into this particular mode that you can survive in any type of dialogue. You can use the native taggames, which is in the treaters, or you can only see the native taggames. So the couple along there is the component plus our redial, which is converted, on the age of those taggames, and that is about 26 dialogue, or 10 dialogue, and you use those taggames. Taggames really is all of us, and one of the biggest ones we have is the form ideal of the taggames, which inside that taggames has got six additional taggames, just for creating the two big tags of the couple, and that particular native taggames ensures a whole bunch of dialogue. Now what we see here is that we're watching the basic context of basic dialogue, when you see that the animation is an effect on the native language, the identity. It's made for many of you in our process, and then once you're taking a video, you've got a file created in the form of the taggame, and then you're fading the fadeout to the technical point of our focus, our taggames, and our definition of opportunity. Because I'm working here in half a second, I'm going to show you what we've got there. We've looked at some of the video dialogue, it's not, it was a pretty good process. Now what you see for us today is that we have the native taggame, the visual tutorial tag, the idea that you can create what you think it's called, it's called a document. And we have it there. We're not using the names as I've known, but it is possible to format the native format scene as well as the gtsp file that we've now found out, that we've used to format our matrix sequence, the matrix sequence, or as they always do. Here is the layer, 6 and 1, or the taggame. So the idea is that we've landed on everything that needs to be changed, and then we have this custom that you can just back to the native, to create a drawing area, but then we have a whole bunch of carbacks added to it, so we can render them in all the steps that we've created. These custom engines contain the layout and the editing which I've covered in that, which is created with an app that I've created over there. Here then is the code standard, code standard is implemented with pop-ups, which are kind of nice to slide anything there that comes to life. And the way it's similar to that is a line, and the bottom line is also a pop-up, we've got all the energy in the line, so I'll just stay there. This is a custom engine one, it's a new custom engine one, just go back to the game, and we'll go into the map. This is a table, this is a music video, it's called out as the open source, it's called open source, get the full effect, and I've got to show you what I'm about to press, what I'm about to narrow down, but it's a beauty to do. When it comes to creating previews, we do it all around here, we do it for pleasure, on the high DPI, and the same way it's doing it, it's not going to be a true center, it's previews not a shack, it's previews that are all men and women, first of all, they're all men, they're all men, and first of all, they're all men, they're all men, and first of all, they're all men, it's a pretty good trick, I'm trying to explain this to you. But but, little things that are now issue by default, be that you see not as simply the counselor and meeting the password and, We got to here, um, that there wasn't a 255 that had been placed back then, but it was all right, and since it's all right for a fort like this, it turns out that we see a lot of just like any of the exposures today, although they're all stored, and they'll put them all up. This is 1997. I checked their list today, and I'll move it out at the half of its title please. The description is very good, and that's the title of the fort. It's something that's very nice. Put it together, and it's just... The last day we did the sixth fort. It was Translation, so you go from the old fort to the more standard house. It's about a gate outside the fort. You've got to move the gate outside the fort. It's the same type of dedicated system that if you load, which is what it's used to do, that are dedicated to a lot of translations. It's a really lot of translations. We now use those gates to fill a line of translations. And then we have to work a lot on these, which are dedicated to the translation system. It's a bit of a challenge, but I think it is. We're used to doing things like this every five hours. The last time I checked it, it was a pretty powerful translation system. That's what I love about the fort. So we did a short demo of these pieces, and I've also said what happens now is that we haven't been saved five hours before. We've had to work a few changes in the collection, and then we need to keep them doing all those other things. We've had to wait a few days now, which I've also said a lot about the translation system, but I'm excited to see those improvements in the form of a similar one. And I think the new thing that we can actually share with you, towards the most part of this, is that it is pretty much just, it's customary to just come up with a paint cover, and that provides a function that has to be done to previously be able to be done to functionalise it better. Now, what's better about the translation system is that it allows one to really return to the original translation system. Now, I'll pass it on to the actual translation system, and I hope that you'll all do it for the sake of offering this complete set, in the sense that we've simply discussed how to initialise the translation, knowing that they want to finalise the translation, that they deserve to be completed, now that they have the option to do it correctly. I've changed it to 5-1-1, 5-1-1 to change the power of the user, and I've changed it to 5-1-1. There's really a lot of use, we have a 4-1-1 reduction, we would often think that this is one of the parts that makes the cable to the B-group, so it's nice to be able to do that. Now for the G-group, it's nice to be able to expect it to be single, really one that has to come with it, so that you just see what's going on, what does this switch have, each group really want to be parentless and practical, and that makes it nice to be able to do that, so that doesn't have to have our back end, our back end single, it's just a piece, it's just a piece. Also for the X-ray button, so we'll start with that, place it here like this, and we have 4 stages, we would say that this one adjustment was a case to describe our 4 edges, it's a justice right, now we have 4 visual adjustments, so that each individual's finger will get all the adjustment, and not the effectors. If you can feel the edge of the G-group, once in a while it affects the adjustment, and you're told to do it once in a while, and you've adjusted it, and we're all about changing it, so that you've moved to use the right file to describe the initial conditions that you've considered it, it would be more of a means, so that some adjustments needed, and even an action, it's very small adjustments, and the capacity of the W-file, that we have exactly. What we've done before, and of course, we've got these 5 file adjustments, and we've got these changes, and the effectors, if you move from the 5 file, and put that into a file, we've got these changes, and we've got these changes, these are the changes, so it's not just the thing. We used to have about 5 Kcads ahead, around 2 Kcps, and then a panel in the middle, I think we addressed that as something that was helped against some of the other areas of the bar that was moving in the media. And again, because we were using the fight for money to describe our nation's conditions, now they've carried out the requirements. So we all assumed that our privilege to be a treaty we've had at the textile market, now we have to actually bear it. It takes a lot of money to do that. It's good for that. It's just that in the same number of boxes, and we're all using it in the order of the same, every one of the treaty things has to take a lot of money. And I think that the option that it takes a lot of money, it's going to be a lot of money. So for us to say more or something like that, it's a lot of money. And of course, as we just said, all the time we've come out of that, we've got plenty of time, we've got our privilege to carry the privilege that we've just taken, we're getting some of these. Then we have all the directives, as a characteristic of NSX, most of NSX, we've got two customs. In the end of the treaty, we've split up the corners to see what's going to happen. They're all interactive, and they're problematic. Another problematic is that they're interactively. That's taking the easy to do, and the other way, in the time limit, which is kind of outside of the treaty, if it's in trial, you see that it's anyway at the time limit, which is not going to be easy to adapt to. And my code would do that. So we're going to be taking the privilege of it to do that. That's because of the control that you have instead of the easy to do, or the easy to control, and everything that's in it is used to accept that you can't, that you're going to draw a jail on top of that, and it's different to not hear about some of the small amounts of cases where they're going to start to think about it. The way to catch the problems is the accessibility, and the accessibility of the documents that's in the treaty is quite reliable, and accessibility is our start-up. We need that to make the implemented costs of accessibility so that it can be made available to make that work as something that can be used in the treaty. And then, with the title, which is the title of the museum, which is the treaty, which has always contributed to that, and the accessibility that we use that, what does it do? The duty of drawing is asked from the outside of the duty of drawing, after you access the things that are described, it gets a power to this existing duty of drawing to you, accessible to you, which you don't have to make it into a custom, an implementation, accessible to you, to find that which is easy to do. It does more than it does. So, go right in, that's what we do. We, that's what's most important to us, is the best access to you, to the problems that we face, that's what's most important to us. To do work, and to do delivery. And, what's outstanding, and what's, a lot of things that we do, today, especially with this slide, what's clear, the dialogue, things like that, so just a little bit of that, so that it can pass into the world, that describes you, when it feels, and so, they may become more cases, that's what's most important to you. It's an, and, and things like that, that time, that's what's most important to us, that are required, from moment to moment, it's just not as easy to do, between the problem and the problem. And then, the time of our shift, which I was able to do, if you go to 16.04, and, we did, generate this virus, and more on this, if you're using properties, that don't exist in the town, or, at least, you should try this, by using properties, that don't exist in the city, that do not exist in the city, that don't exist in the city, was a factor such that, it's also important, it's not a need to fix it, so that's what they say, that's it. The pop-up, where I showed you before, the product, the current, that's, that this is all about, the medical systems, the medical systems, the care-based systems, all of this, cannot be needed, inside, when we're in this like, in, in this, in a small town, in the town of, in the city of, in the town, so the only thing that's going to get the future, are all the people, and generate this, that's what GTK is, and we got a common cause, we're only common cause, in these situations, we can't type this, and can't type A, to do, to do what's on the field. The, the last show was, that was GTK that we worked on, I don't know if that's going to be a problem at the same time, you can now move the case to C45 at a time, in those cases, by faculty. I think this is going to be a dialogue. That is actually true in most types. I would do one last way to pretend that accessibility is the other way around. Just about that. Just about that. And this is how we move the case to C45 at the same time. Okay, that's going to be a dialogue.


Hi, my name is Dragan, I'm a psychotherapist and the bulk of the work I do is in the field of complex trauma and gender diversity. I myself identify as a non-binary transgender man and today I'm going to be talking about a case of a transgender man from Brisbane with my colleague Pam. And I'm Pam and like Dragan I'm a psychotherapist who works near complex trauma and dissociation and I have a client in that area that I'm really looking forward to speaking to Dragan about and hearing about his client. Hey Pam, good to be here. Hey Dragan, good to catch up with you. Yeah, hey look I know you've got the case but I thought I'd just do a bit of a retap of what we're going to be talking about. Is that work for you? Yeah sure, just remind me that'd be helpful, thanks. Cool, okay so Dylan, he's a transgender man from Brisbane. He's 21 years old and his family are originally from India and he's been coming to therapy for about three months every week and he's fairly, he's sort of fairly agitated in his body, like he's quite fidgety, he tends to kind of push his glasses up his nose a lot and jiggle a bit in the chair and stuff but he's been working really well with the regulation concepts around the window of tolerance and noticing that kind of hyper arousal in his body, that's been working quite well for him. Right? Yeah, he's come to therapy because he's always been a meditator, he grew up meditating and he actually stopped it at one point a few years ago because he found that it was, he couldn't stop thinking about things that happened to him at school and stuff and they were really intruding and he wanted to get back into it and basically the same thing has happened, he's getting a lot of intrusions and a lot of sort of nightmares and flooding from when he was at school, he was 15 and he came out as trans and he got really bullied and physically bullied, psychologically trolling on social media, threatened in the hallways and even actually sexually threatened in the boys' bathroom so there's a lot of trauma around that time of his life, there's potentially other trauma as well that he's alluded to but what happened when he tried to meditate again was that that all came basically flooding back into his awareness so that he initially came to therapy to try and make that better for himself, he didn't understand what was going on, you know... Yeah, I've had a few clients like that and they've really kind of spooked because they've heard meditation is really good for them and they try to do it and all the stuff comes up so I hear what you're saying, yeah. Yeah, exactly, yeah. You know, it used to be a place that he could sort of find peace and he could escape and it's just not that anymore. He's actually brought up a lot more symptoms, if you like, for him around you know, feeling very startled and feeling, he gets a feeling, a tingling on the back of his neck that he feels like somebody's about to hit him and he'll just be walking down the road and start getting the sensation so it's brought up a lot of what I would say would be PTSD symptoms for him. And just remind me, Dragani, he's in quite a good situation in terms of support at the moment, you know, in a supportive community that he's got some concerns that his family, it's still quite difficult in terms of acceptance at that level, is that right? But he's got a lot of support in there here and now, outside of him. Yeah, absolutely. Look, he moved away from, he left school, he moved away from the family situation up to Brisbane, he was in Sydney and yeah, that's absolutely right, he's in a good community, he's feeling safe in that community, he's got a little dog that he absolutely loves called Milo and that's a real point of connection for him. And yeah, the main stuff that he is estranged from his father and his mother and sister are not allowed to talk to him. So he's only actually got an aunt who's connecting with him at all. Yeah, yeah, that's great that he's got support where he is now, that it's hard sometimes when the therapy relationship is the only one that's supported. Of course, it's possible when that's the case, but it's greatest is already good support outside of therapy, so he's in that situation and he's here and now kind of every day life by the sound of it. Absolutely, yeah. And look, he's been doing well with what I guess we would call more phase one work of, you know, safety and stabilisation, regulation, resources, he works well with that concept of the window of tolerance and where is he sitting right now. He's been doing well with that stuff and the reason we're talking about it today is that the last session, he basically brought up his uncle and he sort of hinted at the fact that there'd been violence there and possibly sexual violence there and then he completely shut down, stopped speaking and a lot of work had to be done to basically bring him back from that state. So he really moved into a different state. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So the one of the questions that's been put that we can discuss is is that the therapist was wondering, is it time to move into phase two? Is it too soon to move into phase two? That was one of the questions that came up about the stuff we'll be talking about today. And that's a really always a difficult one because you're never quite sure, are you? Even when all the signs are good. But I like to be really transparent around that. Do you think that would work? Like really working with the client. So what Dylan thinks and, you know, if he finds he's not, what happens then is he got his grounding stuff. So it's kind of like a bit of a dance. And yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then it's not like suddenly we're going to do it and it's all full on. It's like knowing you can step out at any time and it's a little bit exploratory. And if you get the stress, we just stop and that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  I think it's a good model, but it's not an exact model. It's not a nice, neat one, two, three kind of model. You know, we start with safety and stabilisation. We move into processing trauma. We integrate. Oh, it's all over. I mean, you know, it's not like that, of course. And I think absolutely. The information for me from from this is that, you know, yes, it probably is too soon to move into phase two. However, he did regulate back, you know, in that session, he did regulate back. They were able to come back to that place of safety and grounding. And I'd be, I guess I'd be curious about, yeah, like you say, testing it out. Like if he brought it, say, in the next session or another session and he wanted to talk about it, it would be OK, let's see how we go. We can, we can stop. We can come back to safety again. We can, there are lots of things we can do to make this a safe experience for you. Yeah. And is he on board with that, you know, the dissociative sort of stuff as protective and initial, like he's, if he's feeling overwhelmed, his body will give him, so he'll kind of tune out or get distressed. So he knows the function that that's serving and that it can be managed. If that comes up, you can manage it. Because I find a lot of my clients, they don't really like to spend a lot of time because people can freak it. What if I get upset? What if I get upset? Whereas if they kind of know? Exactly. We do get upset with distressing things, but we can manage it, you know, that kind of dynamic. Yeah, yeah. He's got a lot of knowledge now around, you know, the function of his nervous system and what's happening. He tends to go more towards the hyperarousal, like he tends to go more into the agitated state. Right. He's not as free as he tends to go more into that. I would call it an active freeze as opposed to the full shutdown collapsed freeze. Like he's not moving, but he's also not in that, you know, that collapsed state that's very, very dissociative and very sort of passive? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He seems to be much more on the hyperalert state even if he's shut down. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, and it's so important, isn't it, that we as therapists recognise that somebody, you know, like you say, it's not necessarily a full shutdown, but people can still be overwhelmed even if they're not totally zoned out. They can stop and we might think, oh, they're just hesitating or taking a moment, but it could actually be a really distressed, semi kind of shutdown. So being really genuine as we're saying, reassuring around that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that comes up for me, I think, with his case is that, yes, he's transgender and he does have the potential for, say, gender and congruence, I would call it gender and congruence, where he can experience a dissonance between his gender identity and how he's feeling in his body or how he's feeling even about his body. He does have the potential for that still. He can still feel quite uncomfortable in his body, but I feel like I work very much with what's in the room and I really feel like, you know, yes, his gender's in the room because he's in the room, he's a trans man, but his gender isn't an issue in the room at this time. I think that's a great point. Thank you for, because it's so easy for a therapist who doesn't work a lot with transgender clients to think, oh, everything's about the transgender issue, you know, if something comes up with something to do with a transgenderized gender, whereas you say, this is a human being in distress and that's the primary thing in working in the room. So thanks for just clarifying, reminding me about that, that's great, yeah.  I'd be keeping my language nice and open. I'd use gender-neutral language as much as possible. I'd use, you know, quite open concepts around, I wouldn't be describing behaviors or activities or even reactions using sort of masculine or feminine, like those sorts of concepts. I'd keep it much more open. And I'd be aware of if I got that wrong for him, you know, I'd sort of have to be attuned to that or even ask questions if I wasn't sure. But other than that, that's, for me, that's just, you know, there's often diversity in the room and we're often trying to be as competent as we can with that around, okay, how do I meet this person relationally in a safe way for them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and would you articulate that too, Dylan, and welcome him specifically verbally? Say, look, please jump in. And I don't mean just around transgender and pronouns, but if there's anything at all that, you know, is uncomfortable or perhaps I've got something wrong and I obviously I didn't intend to, but feel free to kind of tell me, would you actually put it out to him like that? Yeah, definitely, definitely. I love, actually, I love, I know we get very languagey around our therapeutic approaches and stuff, but I actually love Pat Ogden's concept of contact statements. Like I, you know, I mean, it really resonates with me, that thing of what's there and that if something goes awry, then I have to make contact with that. Like, oh, that didn't go down so well. I'm sorry I did that wrong, you know, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I'd rather pretend and going on as if nothing's happened if we sense discomfort in either of us, being able to somehow address that and acknowledge it verbally or not, rather than just going on as if it hasn't happened. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Look, the only place I really, I think, I'd want to just keep an awareness around the gender stuff. I don't feel like it's in the room as an issue, but I, but it is in the room. And my awareness would be around working somatically and again, I'd just be attuned. I'd have to be attuned to if we're working somatically and we're working with the body, is that something that's easy for him or not easy for him? Can he come into his body or not come into his body? But that for me would be similar if you're working with someone with trauma around sexual abuse, for example, you might still come up against the same sort of issues around how easy is it for someone to access concepts around the body. Absolutely, yeah. So high sensitivity, but an issue for whatever, any client, that's an issue, isn't it? Attuning to the body and safe ways to draw attention to it that aren't going to freak the person out, so. Yeah, totally.  And I think initially that's quite a hard thing for particularly trauma survivors to be able to do that. But it's a great place you can get to therapeutically when someone can actually say, no, that's wrong for me. Because now we've really built some empowerment that someone's able to say to the apparent authority in the room as the therapist and they're able to actually disagree. Absolutely, yeah. And I think that's such a good point because obviously Vandekok talks about befriending sensations, you know, but it's so hard when the sensations are distressing, isn't it? So people, you know, if we're trying to take them quickly and talk about attunement to the body and the body can actually be very triggering, it can be the sight of the trauma, you know, especially around sexual trauma and probably with Dylan's dysmorphia, like you're saying. So you're attuning to sensations, but being very aware that that in itself is potentially really destabilising to someone. So the way in which we do it being just so important, yeah. And, I mean, you'd notice, wouldn't you? You'd see shifts in their posture, you'd see shifts in their regulation states. You'd be like, oh, this isn't really working for them. I have to be curious as to why it's not working. I mean, with someone like Dylan, probably before this point, when I would say well before this point, I would have figured out what language works for you around your body, you know, to get some of that information. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, I think where we're all stepping up, you know, we talking therapy people because the body's so important that most of us haven't had that body awareness in our trainings and we're listening to the words. But if we do notice, you know, someone kind of, you know, moving in the seat or looking at the side suddenly or fleetingly looking distressed, we don't just ignore, that's really important information for us, isn't it? Whereas if we just go on the words, we're leaving all that out, yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, and I think for me, where he is right now, I'd be, so he's brought something up, it's been too much, it's shut him down. I would probably back off from it and be re-resourcing, but it wouldn't mean I wouldn't be, if he brought it, you know, I'm not gonna be, I'm gonna follow his lead around that, but I'd maybe be trying to find ways to, so instead of bringing it and him having to relive it, you could externalize it in some way. So if he wants to look at that, a way that it can be a little bit distant from him where he can start looking at it, not as something he's having to re-experience through telling about it, but through something he can start putting it over there, so just to start looking at it. Yeah, sure, yeah. And just getting back to what you said before about the meditation, something he's tried and can sometimes kind of be stabilizing, would you be kind of distinguishing between meditating and just noticing, rather than really trying to focus? Because mindfulness and meditation aren't the same, are they? A lot of people kind of link to it, but we're wanting people to notice, rather than kind of focus in a meditation type way, if they're not really like that. And I would say where he is at right now, the concept of noticing would be really useful for him, so even you could talk about the last session, so when that happened and what, if you look at it now, what happened for you and your body when that, what did it feel like when you stopped speaking and I saw your head go down and you were looking at the floor and so he can even start noticing that as a, it's like making it a story in a way, isn't it? I'm looking at it from here, it's me, but I'm looking at it from here, so I don't have to be overwhelmed by it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always think of Janina Fisher and I like the curiosity. When something's painful or distressing that we notice about ourselves, that obviously that's usually not a good feeling, but if we can encourage people to be curious, you know, the body's always a source of information and if we can, you know, it's hard when the information it's giving is painful, but if we can keep up that care, it's interesting that my body's actually, like I said before with phase one and phase two, Dylan might be thinking he's ready for phase two and then he gets distressed and rather than kind of going into that, if he's able to, oh, that's interesting, my body's actually suggesting I'm perhaps not as ready as I thought or trying to see it as valuable information, even if it's, you know, distressing in the moment, it can take the edge off and if we can somehow try and keep that curiosity up and part of it is to do that. Yeah. And I mean, I do, you know, I do work a lot with the body, so I would use something like if he was wanting to explore that, I might be like, I'd be trying to find a way for him to put it out there to look at it. I mean, one thing I've done is, you know, you draw a little outline of the body and then you start talking about sensations and start floating out, particularly around his gender and congruence or his dysphoria. So if we coloured the body green, you know, areas that you feel really okay about and maybe we coloured, you know, red or whatever colour areas that you don't feel okay about, like you're starting to get to know that information and then you can, because you're trying to bring something from the external to the internal, so then it could be, okay, so if you put your hand on a part of your body where you've coloured it green, how is that to have your hand on that part of your body and you start exploring the inner and the outer? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really, yeah, lots of ways of, a lot that visualising and the colour and that sort of externalising and a manageable way of addressing sensations that can be really confusing in the moment, but addressing it in that way can kind of make it a bit more user-friendly, I guess, bit encouraging to sort of get into that sort of way. And you're doing it, you know, bit by bit or using Peter Levine's idea of titration, you know, even if it's too much to put your hand on a part of your body where you've coloured it red, but you could put it near an area that you've coloured it red and you could explore what that was like and, you know, you move towards things, you move away from them. It really makes sense to me that whole rhythm of, you know, you move towards something that's stressful but you don't move too far so that you're overwhelmed, you come back to your place of resolve. Yes, absolutely. That air been floating over. And just on that, around the, you know, edging up to stuff, interphase to, and, you know, exposure, did you want to, that's always interesting to connect on, isn't it, because there are exposure therapies that often aren't as recommended for complex trauma people. There can be some confusion around that. And do we want to say something around that? I just want to get your sense of that. I think the titration you mentioned is a safe way. That's probably our guide. Like, exposure can often mean like confrontation or taking that straight into things. Whereas the titration fits with the phase model for complex trauma, it's gentle. It's moving towards, but it's not like a full-on exposure in the way that perhaps standard exposure therapies potentially can be. Yeah, it's interesting because it did come up in the training where somebody, I was describing the titration technique of moving, you know, towards and moving back to your place of resource. And somebody said, isn't that like exposure therapy? And I said, oh, that's a great question. And we talked about it as a group, you know, because it's not, of course, it's not the same as exposure therapy, but it is building your resilience to that sensation or to that event, or you are building resilience. Yeah, I think Christine Courts, why does she talk about approaching rather than avoiding?  And I think Lavigne talks about, as you said, indirectly. I think, doesn't he talk about that, you know, that Greek myth and, um... Is it who's here with the shield, Medusa? And he's advised that like the shield, you don't look directly into the heart of the trauma like looking at Medusa, you do it indirectly. So exposure is kind of that confrontation, immersion, full-on. Whereas we're saying, you know, you can edge up to something. Obviously, you can't avoid painful things all your life, but you can start to move towards it like you're saying safely with penjulation and titration rather than exposure, capital, full-on immersion. Yeah, absolutely.  Or you can do it symbolically or metaphorically or, you know, or even just, you know, through the body using sensation in the body. There's so many ways we can move towards. And as you move more into phase two, which I think is too far for Dylan right now, but as you moved on, you know, I imagine, you know, I like that concept of Pat Ogden's that you're working at the edges of the window of tolerance.  You learn to sit with a level of stress without becoming overwhelmed. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's really important because a lot of people who are struggling and, you know, with trauma, they kind of think, oh, you know, if I go and see a therapist, it's about talking about, it's about confronting. And we're very much, aren't we? With complex trauma, so it's not about that. It is gentle. It is being resourced before you go there.  So that gentle kind of in and out, ebb and flow. It would be awful if people were thinking, oh, I can't see a therapist because we're going to be forced to talk about or forced to confront stuff. Whereas, as we're saying, complex trauma therapy, the phase to craft is not about that at all. Yeah, yeah. Look, another thing that came to mind, I wanted to see your take on this, I was really interested because he does, he does relate to sensations in his body like he describes the churning in the stomach. He describes this tingling on the back of his neck. And I was really curious about, because I also know that he has the potential for gendering congruence. I was wondering about a way to tease out the difference that the churning in his stomach and the tingling on the back of his neck, where he feels like he's going to be struck. Actually, he's put that all into the same boat of this is my gendering congruence, but I actually think those are PTSD symptoms. I don't think they're about as gender at all. I think they're about as trauma. Mm, mm. Wow. Yeah. Is that something you would draw, you know, have a conversation with him about or you feel he's not quite ready to make that distinction or it sounds like a... I think I'd explore it maybe at this. If he, yeah, again, if he brings it, you know, if he says, oh, my stomach's churning, I think I'd explore it because I think it's important to differentiate the difference, you know, with everything, isn't everything in the body isn't just about, for example, that I'm dysphoric. Yep, yep, absolutely. Yeah. But I mean, isn't that... Absolutely. Very good. Yeah, absolutely. No, I was just going to say, I think that's right. I can't remember which therapist it is, but never taking it face value, what a particular word is a description is. Someone might say, oh, I feel terrible or I have tingling or... And so, oh, you know, what's it like because that description could be very different for everybody and including for the person, the tingling in one context might be something somewhere else. So teasing out what that experience is actually like and like you say, in the course of that, he may well do, oh, it's actually, it's not what I thought initially or it can be different at different times and just give a bit more room to move because there's such a tendency to over-identify with a painful sensation. It's like it's all bad kind of thing, you know, or it's all about this, whereas if you break it down like that and, you know, explore those, what's it actually like, you can sometimes make helpful distinctions that people can help, you know, that can help them tolerate it better or get a different take on it or, yeah, it makes sense. Well, I think it's important, isn't it? Because people are often coming to us with a diagnosis or a variety of diagnoses and that becomes a blanket thing. Oh, I'm disparate. I have gender incongruence. I have borderline or I am a borderline, you know, personality, disordered person or, you know, people claim that as my identity and part of our work is like, well, actually, yeah, let's tease this out.  What if it's a trauma response? What if it's actually your body reacting to something that's happened in the past? What if it's that? What if it's not what you've been told it is? Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. So some gentle kind of psychic aid around that too, not in a kind of teaching way. But a lot of people, you know, these are the responses when we're dismisses how the body works, how the brain under stress.  These are responses that human beings have to distress on. Yeah, I find that works really well often as well, yeah. Yeah. Would you, where are you thinking he's sitting for yourself? Like just before we sort of wrap up how is it working for you as far as what you think you'd be doing with somebody like him? Sure, yeah, well, I guess I'd be, like you were saying, a little bit unsure. And when I feel like that, which is quite a lot, like if someone's ready for the next day and they're not ready, I think we never know that for sure. I'd probably be tempted to really have a conversation with him, you know, can we take stock, Dylan? You know, we've met for a while and I know you're kind of thinking at times you want to address stuff and other stuff. And you're not sure if you're ready and can we have a conversation about that and really kind of enlisted as a partnership? Because I don't think we ever are quite sure about that. And putting it out there and trying to have a collegial conversation and then, okay, you know, maybe we'll try it, maybe we won't, what do you think? And if we do and if there's distress, what will we do? So it becomes a kind of, you know, potential consolidation of the resourcing and what the format will be and that kind of thing rather than, yeah, you can kind of see people around and, yeah. It's a co-journey then, isn't it? Like it's a collaboration together, like if this should become too much, what are you going to do? What are we going to do? I don't know all the answers, teasing out their own answers, you know, for him to say that was too much last time.  Okay, that tells me it was too much. So how do we work with that going forward? Yeah, and back to your point about the stages aren't rigid. It's, you know, a lot of people think, oh, that's phase one out of the way. Oh, now I'm into phase two, but it's often with phase two, no matter how resource the person is. I mean, this is trauma often with clients, isn't it?  So it's not a matter of just barreling on. Like if the distress comes up, we stop, we go back to the phase one resourcing. And I think, you know, that often really reassures people, doesn't it, but it's not this sudden, okay, we're ready for phase two, white knuckling, getting through it. Yeah. It's like, okay, maybe we can start it in an exploratory, can we get this, I can go back and do such and such. And it becomes a bit more manageable rather than this big spooky transition. Yeah, and it is a flow, isn't it? Like we are organic beings, it is a flow. And sometimes we think we're well down now, therapeutic path, and then something else comes up and we're like, oh, I need to go back to that early stuff that I did, I need to get back to that place of solidity in myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So hopefully it sounds like you've got a good therapeutic rapport with him and you can have that kind of conversation. And he's, you know, so we're not the experts in that way. We've got some resourcing, some ideas and we're going to assist, but we're really interested in what he feels himself and how best to support him. And if he gets the stress, we can go back to all that kind of thing. So it's very conversational and exploratory other than suddenly we're into what kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Well, look, I've got to get off, but thank you so much. It's been great having a chat about it and sharing ideas. Oh, great for me too. Yeah, likewise. We have to catch up more often. Jogun, yeah, thanks. Yeah, it's nice. I feel like, you know, we're going to approach things in our own ways, but we have a really sort of similar, we're on the same page around these these are the best practice approaches to working with complex trauma so that we don't overwhelm people and so that we are working from a place of strength and resilience and not working from a place of deficit and people getting so overwhelmed and flooded. Absolutely. It's really good to touch base on that, all that. Thanks, Jogun. Till next time, it was great. Thanks. I'll see you later. Bye. Bye.


I am very happy that I am able to communicate with the people in the community. I am very happy that I am able to communicate with the people in the community. So, just to acknowledge the tobacco that has come and to help provide some insight and understanding of what this tobacco is and these questions of what you are asking and what you are asking of me. So, Indigenous education and from my own understanding and from my own lived experience is a transmission of knowledge. A transmission and transference of a really specific knowledge that you can't really find anywhere in the mainstream education systems which are life stories that you can't get unless you've talked to somebody who's lived something or has done something along those lines so it's very much a their story, much like it's his story and history. Those are the, that's what I'm going to try and reference. So that's part of our education. And then understanding the spirit of education. There's a guidance there and that's what as educators they're supposed to do so that's what I would like to try and talk about. And so, I'll talk about my own experience in Indigenous education. So, me when I'm on Nishinaabe, I'm actively pursuing the Nishinaabe language. I'm learning all that I can that is of the Madeleine society, the way of the heart. Also helping with my mom's school and the Ndumalget and Ndumalget, Ndumal, Akinomoshina, Zinacada. So, and that someone, specifically with the language, you don't see it so much with other places of, I guess, education, mainstream education I should say, is mentor apprenticeship programs. So, that's actually taking the time and someone who would be designated the master of a specific art language or knowledge and spending time with them throughout the course of however long it takes you to become proficient at it. So, there's examples down in the southern U.S. with the Denei language. They do master apprenticeship language programs there and they spend two hours a day for a week for three years learning the language. We go to the Mima Technique Shingigajicigake, Bajicigake. Yeah, well that's what we're doing here. And we'll be doing here. So, we have two, our two language speakers there from Wiki and their sisters, Kotni Kaboni and Mary Lou Manitowabi. That's who I'm learning language from. As well as, but they're here every day with the school and helping the school. But there's like a learning, helping agreement with the school between two organizations. My, if I had to describe it, we're a, just a youth group, supposed to be a youth group. And, we provide, we were trying to provide funding to send youth and pay for a language teacher for a year and have them well, well working with this so we don't have to work, look for a language teacher. So, that's, that's going, that's going pretty well. But it's taking that time and listening. And once you start to understand, then you ask questions. Because you don't want to just start asking questions right away. Because then you're not going to, it's going to take you a lot longer if you start asking right away. If you start asking right away then another question, then another question, then another question, then another question, then another question will come. So you got to really sit and wait and be patient because the questions, the answers will come. And it's, you can find that anywhere in indigenous systems. Because you hear this term often enough, but we're spiritual people. And that's why the spirit of education is important as well. To remember that when you're, when you're learning, this may not actually be like a, like a spirit, so to say, but there is something there. But that's the only thing I can put a name to right now. But it's that, it's believing in that and believing in the spirit of intent as well that'll help you in your pursuing of knowledge. So that's also what indigenous education is. It's a pursuit of the knowledge, the knowledge. And it's the, and understanding that. And to kind of provide a little bit more background specifically about knowledge, knowledge is, knowledge is, is in everything. There's, and that's to put it very broadly, much like this question. But knowledge is understanding that how we are, is understanding how we are all connected. And how, and where that connection comes from. So for, for, within the last five years actually, there's a saying that's, that I've heard and that I really hold near and dear to my heart and in the language is The kina we at is your money do long. And the best way to describe that is all that is of the spirit. But that doesn't really quite make sense. So the best way to, and then another way to say that is everything is sacred. But it's that connection that, and understanding why do we call spirit the creator? It's, and then it goes back to the creation story where the first time that the spirit is acknowledged, aside from being the spirit is, how would I say it? There's the, there's a full phrase to say it, but there's a shorter way. And then that means there's but one, there's truly but one spirit that made everything. And then that helps you understand. By understanding that and understanding everything is sacred, you understand everything's connected. Because they all share that connection back to the spirit. And so that's the same thing with knowledge as well. You can all trace it back to the spirit. Doesn't have to be right from the creator itself. I don't really like that word because that's not all the spirit did. The spirit continues to do more. So I'll just say the spirit. Because once you trace that back to the spirit, you begin understanding knowledge a little better in an indigenous concept. Not concept, but an indigenous context, yes. Frame of mind was another one. But once you get that, you can begin to think about everything in a different way. The closest thing to that I can say that in Western terms is, and this isn't a, this isn't a, I'm going to reference, say we were all matter. It's the same thing. Like everything is energy. Everything is in a state of energy. It's a very similar concept. So indigenous people understood that for thousands of years before western science is just understanding that. So we all understood that connection. That connection is what we need to focus on too when we're, when we're learning. Because that extends back through lineages, family lineages. So everybody has a family lineage. So it, for myself, it would be, I have both my dad's patata goose lineage. And that could, can be traced all the way back to northern Wannapatae area. And then my mom's pegama gobble family lineage through her dad can be traced all the way back to the Georgian Bay area.  I know a little more on my mom's side than I do on my dad's side, but that's because they, they kept those stories alive here there. And it was a little harder here because everybody, because of the lifestyles that people were living at the time, which would have been this 80s, 70s, very post residential school for this region anyways. But it's, and then that knowledge then can be traced back to you. So the way it's described is your grandparents, their grandparents, and then their grandparents seven generations back. And all lineages can be traced back to the spirit. So it's understanding that. So when you're acknowledging the grandfathers and grandmothers, what you're also acknowledging is you're acknowledging the spirit in that. So those lineages of knowledge can all be traced back. Lineage that has been, that knowledge that has been carried by a family can be traced back. And then their transmission of that knowledge from generation to generation is the education. Is the learning from the grandparents to the great grandparents. So the skills of hunting, the most relevant skills today would be hunting, fishing, like setting nets. Birch bark making and language, language, because families have specific languages that are specific language use that they use. And it's a little more, there's variations from family to family and they'll sometimes argue about that. But anyways, that's how we need to think about our education in an indigenous context is that it's a transmission from the lines. So when you take on knowledge from a line, you're taking on a family's knowledge too. So if you're learning language from someone say from Tamagami or out in Minnesota or elsewhere, you're taking on that family history and that family knowledge as well. Some of it, that may not be all of it, but it's how that family would use that word in the context of a word that you'd be learning as a language learner. So that's indigenous education, the transmission from family lineages that can be traced back to the spirit. In what ways do you personally pass on the knowledge that you carry? So this is a good instance because I'm not just telling the recording and the people listening who would be listening to the recording. I'm also telling you the interviewer, the interviewer. So because you the interviewer are also learning something from this, you're also going to relay that information through this recording. So this is one instance of a transmission and transference of knowledge. And I guess that's how you got to look at the tobacco too, is what's in the request. So yeah, so that's an example. But in my own case of transferring knowledge to kids is... So working at my mom's school, Kinimo Shin, we're a land-based program and we're trying to do everything we can with the kids on the land. Of course it gets really cold and then they can't stay out too long and they just freeze.  The snow's deep enough to keep you warm. But some of them manage and some of them are having really good times while they're here and they're exercising and they're living on the land and they're doing what their grandparents would have done generations ago. That's what I'm helping teach as well as not only catching language from the language teachers but I'm also using that language that I'm learning from them and using it with the children. So that's the transmission of knowledge as well and transference. But also we actually take quite a few professional development days even though they're not quite, they wouldn't be standard professional development but when you apply the, I guess Indigenous context, when you apply it to professional development, you can really see how anything can thus be professional development. But specifically ceremonies are a good example of that because I'm actually taking time out of my day, my week to go and listen to the leaders of the ceremony and conductors and take that time to learn from them how they do it and then learning how to do it. So it's observation and then not only that, you're helping them because they can't do it all by themselves, they need help. So that's what I'm doing and then we get quite a few of those to go actually listen, actually sit and listen and then you're always asked to think a little more about that or if you're stuck on something just to be patient because the answer will come and remembering to have that respect for the spirit because the spirit can always answer because in my own personal experience I've had instances where I've been thinking about something and thinking about something and then when I say I'm dreaming I'll be shown something that's a good time when the spirit has answered you. So that's one instance. Language is another thing that's very key and we're at a critical time. It's almost at a point where you should drop everything and just focus on language but if you dropped everything and focused on language you couldn't live and it's already hard enough to make a living on language. But all the old people and when I've noticed this and when I've talked to them they said I'm very proud of you for beginning to speak, to begin to understand because it wasn't two generations back where my grandparents were getting hacked into Ojibwe and my great-grandfather said to my grandma actually I don't know why I bother to speak to you in English because if I speak to you in Ojibwe you don't understand either way I tell you. And that's all I can think about is the family. Going back to the family lineage is how proud they would be and not just myself but all the family lineages how proud they would be to see their five times great grandchild speaking the language and then they go back and it goes back and how proud that would be because that's also an act of healing is to reclaim what's yours. I hate to say reclaim, it's another good one. Revitalize. To pick that up again, to pick up those knowledge systems and those systems of understanding that they understood and they used to see their grandchildren pick that up again would be very moving for them. So those are my thoughts on language as well and how the point we're at. But I guess that kind of goes into what stories you're teaching for your great-grandchildren to be able to talk about. So I know myself, I'm going to do a short little history is that, so my mom's adopted father is Eddie Benton Benet and he is one of the last interpreters of Birchbark Scrolls. He's one of the last carriers of the creation story songs that go with the creation stories. He's one of the last people to fully know the knowledge in its fullness or as full in this time. So in this time frame because he had teachers when he was growing up too and they had knowledge bundles that were more full. But now we're coming to a point where it's not getting smaller it's there but it won't physically be available. So that would be my mom and then that and myself. So and my sister's my hall and then all his other grandchildren as well and his other daughters, so other children. So those creation story songs and then the knowledge of that bundle I'm sure he would love to see be passed on but he's at a stage in his health where it's really hard to arrange anything like that so those might just go with him when the time comes. But they can always come back. They can always find a way back and that's okay. I don't want to say you need to be okay with that but it's okay if it happens or it doesn't happen because you need to just understand it the stories need to be you need to understand what's being said to you in a sense. I know well West not so much here but out West when they speak language it sounds very musical so it would sound like they're singing a song to you and they would sing back and forth. And if you listened to that it's like they're conveying a full concept to one another in the through a song and that's how it's said is that a song is a concept you're trying to tell someone. So that's how that language is and that's how those songs are is they're trying to convey a concept and an understanding to you. So one of the first song my adoptive grandfather sang sang the first creation. I won't sing it over the recording but the words I'll give anyways because the words are the words. You can't you're as much as you can find the tune you're probably not going to find the tune but it was like the words were naanin ewezi'an naanin ewezi'an enanamon What the concept is conveying is that am I alone? It's almost like a singular the way it was described was it's the recognition that I might be alone because that's the first song in creation and you may have heard the Jim Dumont talk about the creation story or there was a meme one time and it went around on Facebook and it said how do you like your coffee and it said in the beginning before the beginning there was darkness that's where you can place that song is that before there was anything that's what's here, that's what that song is saying there became a self-awareness in the darkness so like those songs most likely won't be passed on a lot of them have been sung his son recounted that 43 of the 64 songs have been sung in this time or that he's heard that the son has heard he's heard 40 feet or something like that so you have what you have and you can't change that there's other examples of transference of knowledge there's another man who comes from Minnesota and his names I don't know if you've heard Lee Staples you know the name, yeah because he has a book about how to do funerals like traditional funerals traditional Nishinaabe funerals and I really want that book but I can't order it on Amazon but he it's interesting though because it carries from my understanding is it carries a lot of the knowledge on what needs to be done for Nishinaabe when they pass away but no tobacco was was offered from what I can understand and that's an interesting circumstance because that's knowledge just being put out there but at the same time it's he's concerned about the people who maybe aren't being best way to say this is sent home in the proper manner to understand why he wrote those books and it's hard enough to find a conductor of those ceremonies for example funeral ceremonies, funeral rites because they don't happen often enough there might be a big resurgence of them now that people are beginning to want to live a more I guess the phrase is traditional I want to be more traditional and so for them that book would be a good example for wanting to learn so things that I would like to no, things that need to pass on would be like being able to extend and have the right to extend people into societies so whether it's like Sundance, Madeleine Wabano or any other society societal lodge or medicine lodge is to have those rights transferred and continue as well as the rights, funeral rites because if you don't, you can and it was explained this past funeral for Josephine Mondalman is that although you may know the rights in life and you may know what's coming up in life as a spirit, it'll be the first time you're hearing them because that's how that change is described is you're going from physical to a spiritual life to spiritual life in that transition of death so that's how that that's why it's important for those rights to get passed on and then of course there's other life event things that should happen too those kind of rights need to happen and should continue but that's easier because there's a lot of younger people and it happens happening more often you see lots of people doing their very fast vision quests, first hunt things like those so I'm not too concerned about those ones in particular I'm concerned about the very specific and done very often stories and rituals and rights that happen so what is your vision for indigenous education for the next 10 years? it's hard it's a hard one to say people have been answering these two waves of what they fear in I guess a more realistic view of what's been going on and then there's been that more what they hoped for so if you want to double whammy it or if you wanted to just share it as you see that question it really depends on how indigenous people want to assert sovereignty over themselves that's how I vision education so again that's two very different ways it can be will continue to be supported from iNACL and look for those hand out from the government to continue funding our kids to go to public school, Ontario school and post-secondary and it can continue as long as the sun will shine and the rivers flow going back to the treaties it can continue that long if we allow it it's not a bad idea and people always have this idea because it's been probably ingrained on them I know it was ingrained on my grandparents to be the white man and then my mom took that on us too you gotta be a good student, you gotta work hard but I was never a good student I'm okay at best but the vision then is do we continue down the same road, status quo receiving support from the government or do we take our education into our own hands and really start supporting the fullness of what I just talked about ceremony, language the stories and even hunting and using the land is education really take that science and math and everything else I guess the government curriculum if people are really concerned about that we can find ways to include it in a way that it's not the focus but it'll be there if ever they want to go back to mainstream education so that's how that's what I'm thinking that will always be there mainstream education will always be there so it's up to the people to recognize that and to want to pursue that you can't make anybody do that you can make it known and it's up to them