Today we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to talk about the things we talk about. When you listen to us or watch us, we talk about illustrators and adapters and gestures and all kinds of different things. And we get so many comments and so many emails of people saying, what is this? What does that? What does this mean? How do I know what this is? So we're going to talk about those things today. Almost like a glossary of terms we use. We're going to go over a lot of them, not all of them, because it's impossible. But we're going to go over a bunch of them. Greg, why don't you tell them, why don't you talk about what we're going to go through? Yeah, so a couple of things. We started this because we got quite a few requests, direct messages, you name it, saying, hey, could you create some kind of a glossary so I don't have to look at every time you say something? Because we get excited like the rest of you and we talk about things that we use. So this is going to be our opportunity, at least Volume 1, for us to talk about the basics, talk about some things that we all see as universal and they're very few, and about baselining and about some body language. So that's it. That's what we're going to do. So what do you think about that, Mark? I think it's a great idea. I think it's a great idea. So why don't we start off with Ekman's six, maybe seven, depending on where you want to play their emotions. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to put up some pictures here from my book, Winning Body Language. There they are. Let's go to there. There we go. ABC, D, E, F. Those are the six emotions. Why don't you just have a look through those and go, what do you think they're portraying? What do you think somebody's feeling there? And let me throw to Chase. Chase, what are those six elements there? And maybe we'll then talk about what the seventh is and then I'll put up the answers. Yep. So those are happiness, anger, fear, surprise, disgust, and sadness. Yeah, lovely. And we've added on the sixth, which is contempt. And funnily enough, this wasn't an Ekman thing. This was a Charles Darwin thing. So Charles Darwin forms this wild theory back in the day that all humans have the same facial expressions. And this guy named Paul Ekman shows up and says, no, I disagree with Charles Darwin completely. So much so that I'm going to travel around the world and do this massive research project to prove that facial expressions are cultural or regional at best. And he wound up discovering that Darwin was correct, that we're kind of born with the standard software, these facial expressions. I think it's fascinating that it's not just the micro expressions that people tend to focus on, but it's our facial expressions. The cool research, the one cool tip about this, they would show people like a person that's angry, a person that's happy, and a person that's sad. And these are non-English speaking people. In many cases, they were tribes with minimal human contact. And they would ask the person, which one of these three people just found out that their child has perished or their child has passed away? And universally, they point to the sad one. Which one is seeing an old friend after a long time apart? And they would point, which one is preparing for battle? Or which one sees an enemy that they don't like? So that was one of the basic ways that they started proving that this facial expression stuff was universal. Greg? Yeah. I think the only thing I would add is if you go look at the book that Darwin wrote, I was just looking for a copy of it here, you will find that he used plates from Duchain. Well, you'll hear us talking about Duchain's smile. Duchain used all these electrodes and probed parts of your body to show those. And if you look at the old man pictures where he's doing crazy stuff where he has electrodes on his head, all those plates are in that book as well. Guys, by the way, I have a copy of that. It's been sitting on the table downstairs for you guys that I need to mail you. It's just been sitting there for months. But yeah, it's a great opportunity to know that we're all standing on somebody else's shoulders. Ackman is the latest. And all the things we're using take all of those Ackman, all of those Darwin, all those Duchain pieces and pull those together and then add some more. Scott, you want to add something to that? Yeah. Yeah. So what happened was when Ackman was in college, there was a, this is my understanding of it. There was a grant that nobody had used. And it was like 800 grand or something. And they said, look, man, we have this grant laying around. If you want it, you can use it. And he said, what am I going to do? And they said, anything you want to do. He said, I'll tell you what I want to do. He said, I want to travel around. I want to, and then he would do what we've just been talking about. Talk to everyone in the, you know, from I forget how many countries he went to, all the way down to Papua New Guinea. And he dealt with people who hadn't seen a lot of people outside their little group. And they all had the same expressions when they were assless questions that Chase was talking about a second ago. So that's the part I thought was interesting. He didn't do it on a fluke, but if, but if that hadn't been sitting there, that grant, we might not have the information we have today about facial expressions. He may not have gotten as deep into it. He may have studied it and done all that, but he may not have gotten the information we have today. So there's that. So let me go back to this picture here. And we can have a look at the answers there. There are the pictures again. Now, if you are to have got any of them wrong, it's most likely you mistook fear for surprise or surprise for fear. Fear is always a little more subtle than you expect. And I think I've talked about that in other episodes, but it's really because you don't want to show the enemy or the predator too much fear. You want it enough so your friends can recognize it, but not necessarily so. Whatever might be causing the fear can recognize it. There's the pictures again. And just over this, or this side here, there is the ledger there. So you can see if you got those answers correct. And there, just there is the Mona Lisa who is doing none of those. Everything. None of them and all of them at the same time. It's what we call the indeterminate smile. It's not a Duchenne smile. Nothing really happening in the eyes so much, but enough of a lip curl up that you kind of go, what's she going to do? Is she going to smile? Is she going to cry? Is she scared? Is she happy? Like, which one is it? It's almost always going somewhere. So that's Ekman and the six, seven, whatever. Universal emotions. Well, the seventh, which is not in that picture, contempt is a great one to know. I've actually sat in a business meeting where someone has contempt for another guy and the guy's still rattling on not noticing. You know, cool thing about contempt is the only truthful facial expression that is asymmetrical. So if you're looking at all these facial expressions, some people tell you asymmetrical facial expressions are more likely to be false. Contempt is the exception to that rule where we kind of see the sneer kind of upward turn or single-sided smile. Just a fun fact. Exactly. You know, what we just saw everybody doing were called gestures. So let's talk about gestures for a minute. We saw what were called illustrators. When Greg is doing this and then Chase is doing this, then pointing around. And then Mark was doing this and the way he marked it was like the gesture king. But those are called illustrators.  And those are the things that emphasize specific words or phrases. Like I did just then specific words or phrases or specific words or phrases, specific words or phrases. Those types of things. So that's, and illustrators is my favorite one.  Greg, why don't you talk about your favorite gesture? Well, I think for me it's adapters because adapters are just a way of releasing nervous energy. It can be playing with your nails, twirling your hair if you have it, scratching your scalp, doing whatever, drumming your fingers, people do everything. And humans are really creative at that. If you think about putting a coyote in a cage and you watch it pace, that's a way of releasing nervous energy. You'll hear other people call those pacifying gestures or pacifying moves. Any of those things that make us more comfortable and burn nervous energy is what I call an adapter. Puts you in control of an environment that you have no control over. And the interesting piece is because humans are so addictive, once we do it a while and it relaxes us, we'll do it more and more and more and more and more. The most famous is the batter standing in the box, rubbing his thighs with both hands. And people will say it has sweaty palms, but he has pintar on his hands usually. So if you look at their pants legs, you can't miss it. That batter on deck, rubbing their hands is a great illustrator, or I'm sorry, a great adapter, and a way for you to see people release nervous energy. Chase, how about you? What do you think? I think illustrators is my favorite. And illustrators are so cool to look at because when they don't really match the tone of what somebody is saying and you see illustrators that aren't really matching what somebody's saying, that's almost a dead giveaway that some things amiss. Maybe we're not saying somebody's lying, but that's one of those things where we're seeing that and it's something's amiss. I have a second category to illustrators called body narration. So this is just an illustrator. I'm moving with my hands, I'm explaining something, I'm using my hands, but if I'm talking to you about a book and I'm doing this, now I'm holding the book and you can visualize a book there. When I was talking about Paul Ekman's three photos, I showed them and laid them out. So that's different in my book that somebody is visually demonstrating and showing you something, wanting you to imagine something and not just communicating with their hands. So I think that I call that body narration. And we see it when somebody's pointing up and illustrating something, they're talking about how tall a building was, they're kind of narrating it and helping you to visualize what they're seeing. And I think that's an interesting thing there. Mark, what's your favorite? Thanks for passing it to me. Thanks for passing it to me, Chase. So that is an incongruent regulator or moderator. Because so we can talk here about incongruence, which is when it doesn't fit. Either it doesn't fit in meaning or it doesn't quite fit in time. And both of those can suggest that there's some stress going on. In this particular case, Chase hands it to me and I say thanks for handing it to me and I do this wipe gesture, which is illustrative of wiping clean and maybe even brushing away, pushing away. But it's incongruent with what I'm saying. And it's also a regulator or a moderator of the conversation because I'm trying to say that has gone the wrong way. Maybe somebody else should be doing that. So look, when we layer this up, I might say to Greg or to Scott or to Chase, hey, was that regulator incongruent for you? And that might be our shorthand to be a rather than me going, did you look at this? Isn't it like this or this or this? It's a shorthand, like any lexicon, like any group of words, it's a shorthand around this. Scott, what have you got to add to any of that? We were looking at Chase and watching Greg especially. We saw what were called manipulators and those are things where, I don't think Chase had any on his. I was looking for him, that's why it's popping in my brain. But Greg, when he was moving around, he would do stuff and as he was showing you adapters, he was also showing you the manipulator is the hand that's doing the adapting. That's what those are termed as. The thing that's moving things around or on your mouth when you're doing this, that can be an adapter, but at the same time, the manipulator in that is the upper teeth and the jaw at that point. So anytime somebody's doing this, the thing that's actually doing the action, that is the manipulator, even though it is a passive or a pacifying behavior as Jonah Varro has coined, as we see when we see those things happening.  So that's one thing we see. A lot of these things you'll be able to add to your deception hunting skills, but you have to know when to look for them. For example, when you see, like Chase was saying, when you see an illustrator that doesn't go when the words hit on, when it doesn't hit on the words, I can't even do it. When it doesn't hit on the words, you'll see that quite often with O.J. Simpson when he's explaining a couple of things that he's in question about. For example, killing that girl, that guy. His illustrators don't hit right on the money and you can hear him hit a table when he's talking. They don't hit on the money on the spot for every word. So for me, when I hear those and we know when we hear that happening or see that happening, that means there's an issue there. They may not be lying, but there's an issue there that they're thinking about something else. So don't necessarily think someone is lying. It just means there's an issue there for that person because the stress may be building up. Greg, you want to add anything else? Yeah, so just a couple of things. We left out an important one and I'm not offended, but wait. And that's a barrier. And what we mean by a barrier is simply anything I put between the two of us. It can be nothing more than this. And this is the high school version of it that you learned in high school psych. But it can be something very complex. I always say the most complex is if I hold a Bible or any kind of a doctrine in front of me and hold it there, I'm using authority and a barrier. So it's a powerful one when you use it that way. All these things together, I think what we probably need to loop back and explain, the barrier doesn't mean anything, but it can mean everything is the way I would put it. If a person always sits and holds a book when they're talking to you, it's just a comfort thing and it can become an adapter. It can become that comforting move. But if they suddenly pick up something and put it between the two of you over a contentious topic, it means something. I think what we're wrapping back to is all of these are going to tie back to baseline. I think what would be important is for us to relist the things in very succinct order. And let's talk about what they are. I'll start with barrier. When you put something between you and someone else and give yourself a block. Chase, you want to add the next one? Yeah. So one more thing about barriers, if I could just add this in. Barriers is also clothing. So a person tightening up their tie, buttoning their jacket, zipping something up, or placing something like a coffee cup between you and them. So their drink is over here on the table. They take a sip of it and then it's placed in between you and them. Those are adding barriers, but it's also important during a conversation. When does a person remove them? When do the barriers get removed? When do they loosen the tie, unbutton the jacket, move the wine glass out of the way? So those are interesting because they indicate there's a point of comfort or a point of that person starting to open up in a conversation or a negotiation. When we're doing jury selection or trial consultation, you can see a jury go from this to this. And a three or four jurors are doing that at almost the same time. That's a very big deal for us. The removal of the barrier is just as important as the placement, I think. Agreed. So I can skip my turn if you want. No, I think what we should do is... No, we're just talking. Just keep doing it. Push the mark. I'll do illustrators. I'm trying to give you a regulate to that, Chase, to throw it to me. One quick note, we're kind of batting us around. People always ask us, are you sending signals to each other? Of course we are because we read body language and when we do something, a guy gets it. We don't have to pre-suppose those things. We're looking and saying what's up and knowing the other person's talking to us. And we don't need to send signals to each other. We can just say what we want and then edit that out. That's a nice save, both of you. Apparently Mark's not, yeah. Let me see who we missed. Did we talk to Mark yet? Mark? Okay, so I'm just reminding you that I was talking about regulators and moderators and there I was desperately going, me, me, me, give it to me. Give it to me. And that's a classic one there. I'm going to add one more idea to this which is little talked about because it's not really written down in very many places. And that's what I would call psychological gesture. Sometimes I might call it metaphorical gesture. That's when I might say, well, I think everybody, that was a great round. And what I do is create a metaphor or a gesture of I'm raising a glass to everybody. Now, not everybody might get that metaphor. So some people will look at it and go, why does that happen? But in my mind, I know I'm raising a glass. Often not talked about, it was a guy called Michael Chekhov who came up with that idea way back in the day in Russia. And he came up with the idea of counter psychological gesture as well, which is I might be talking about something negative that you wouldn't raise a glass to and do that gesture at the same time. So I might go, well, I'm very upset about this. And suddenly I've now got the counter gesture to what I'm saying. It's incongruent and there's layers and layers of meaning in there. So that's psychological gesture or metaphorical gesture. Sometimes it might be called. Scott, would I add some more to all of this? Something we don't talk about very much, very often are emblems. And emblems are the, they're almost universal. And you want to say universal, that this means something to a group of people. This means something to a group of people. The bird means something to a group of people.  This is these things. But most people don't know what a lot of those are, but those ones where we look at the waiter and go like that, check please. Those are emblems, things we'll use that other people know without having to, in some cases, speak the same language. Greg, you're going to say something. What are you... Yeah, all I was going to say is they have to be understood. You can make a big mistake. Americans going abroad might go like this or that. And those things can be misunderstood pretty easily. They're an entire thought in one movement is what they are. For the peace sign. Yeah. Peace sign. Depending on which direction. For a lot of these kind of things as well, all kinds of gestures that may make sense if you know the culture really well and if you don't know the culture, it's like what an earth? What an earth is being said that I spend a lot of time working in Italy, so I understand some of that stuff. And the champion researcher for the emblems, I would say, is probably Desmond Morris.  That was the first, that book that Mark's holding, this is the first introduction to emblems that I ever got in my life and I really enjoyed it. That's a, it's an enjoyable read, probably not an audio book, but I would definitely recommend it. First, I think the first body language book I ever got, this is my original copy from the 1970s at some point, or certainly the early, the early 80s. I have a hard copy of it right behind me. Well, I loved it because it just had great pictures and it's full of fantastic, fantastic pictures. While you guys are doing that, I'm going to pull this curtain too a little bit. Yeah, what I was trying to do when we, I was trying to go back to a succinct wrap of barriers, this and adapters, this or regulators. I know we didn't get there, but I don't think, I think you're over-complicating when you try to turn people into professors. I think what are, that's not our, at least my opinion, you guys can correct me, but I don't think that's... I think they should all be professors. I want to turn them all into... Just as long as we're helping them, understand our vernacular, that's what... If it's something that we might, if we've used it in an episode, or we might use it again, say it, you know. Well, that's what I think, and the way I've, all the books I've sold is only because I'm a consumer grade product. Not a professor grade product by any stretch. So we have looked at it. Well, as I was saying in that interview that we did, I write all the stuff for me, and then I don't try and sell it to me. I make it so simple as I can sell it to the general, the general public, but I don't never dumb it down in any way. I've written one. I've got the one. That's it. So I don't, I can't jump in with you fellas on that. My feelings on writing so many books. Yeah, for me, for me, it's not a matter of dumbing it down. It's a matter of making it simple enough to use. The simplest thing I could possibly do. Yeah. Make it easy to understand body language. So what you're saying? Understand the body talk. That's an art. Or doing six minutes. Doing six minutes. Yeah. Well, and no, I just need to understand the difference between truth and lies. I think I was good. I was going through. I was trying to find it without going down the easy path there. I think Mark's got so many good ones. I was like, what have we got to do? So you go back and watch that. I mean, the best book, the best book that I ever wrote really was this one here. Which is badly titled. And so nobody bought it. It's the best book I ever wrote. I bought it. It's the most beautiful book. Did you title that? I bought it. Someone else. Oh, no, I titled it. That's a problem always. Yeah, I titled it. But actually the original title was Talk to the Lizard. You can't do that. I said, OK, so clearly that doesn't mean the same thing in the US. See, I've heard Malcolm Gladwell say name. You're supposed to, I know how these things work because I didn't get to title that. But they say, let, he said, well, it's his, I guess it's different. Sorry, my brain's not ready. Because I got that master class. It wasn't how he likes some people who buy it.  And Scott would have probably named his book, Tick Tock Chicken. That's true. So these guys came up with House by the Liar. I was like, who'd have thought that wouldn't take? Yeah, that's a great one, man. Dang. Yeah. Well, the more books I write, the less I understand publishing. I don't know how anybody, any of them make any money. I said, I do. I don't know how many publishers.  That's how he pays for everything else. It's like this, I've told this story before. It's like this guy I saw on all those Sunday morning news things.  And they went to the cereal convention, right? And they would go around talking to these people who were like these cereal moguls and stuff. And they came up to this one booth. And it was the guy sitting there, a little table, and a little refrigerator. The only thing was in the refrigerator, it was a little thing of milk and he had a bowl. And so, and the lady comes up and talks to him. She said, well, what are you doing here? He said, well, I'm a consultant for, I'm a cereal consultant. She said, you are. So what do you do? So I eat the cereal and I tell him, well, it's any good or not. And she said, well, how much do you charge? I think he said $25,000.  And he goes, I just need one. So I think that's the way the book people see it. They need that Harry Potter, man. Absolutely. Come on, Harry Potter. Absolutely. I wrote a book for Amicom. And I was talking to one of their guys and he said, if you can figure out the publishing industry, you've gotten us peace. Because they have no idea either. They have the same problem we all do. And especially in the modern age with books changing and everything, more publishing, self publishing and all that. I'm sure it's tough. Hey, guys, the one thing I was afraid of we would get into here is not having a concise product. I don't know if we. Hey, I'm not going to edit this part out. Let's just keep talking and see what happens. Okay, works. I just I just think if somebody's looking for a glossary. All right, Greg, well, let's move on. Let's talk about some of the things that we've seen ourselves examples of my brain is kicking in. Let's talk about some things we've seen in human behavior and body language that we've taken upon ourselves to be cocky enough to name or give names to ourselves. Mark, would you like to begin? All right, let me take you through my glossary that I named. So the gesture planes. So you have the horizontal planes of gesture, truth plane here, grotesque plane underneath this belly button area, truth plane, grotesque plane down here, passion plane here, closure and disclosure here, thought here and ecstatic up here. Okay, probably the main one you want to look out for is when people are gesturing to you in the truth plane, especially with open palm gestures, you are most likely to accept, believe, trust what they're saying, though this is never a signal that they should be believed or should be trusted. It's just most likely to trigger you at an instinctual level that that's the case.  That's why when I sit here on camera, I make sure my hands go up to the passion plane. It sends my blood pressure level up, my heart rate up. It gets me excited and that's really useful for being on camera because video is a sedative, essentially it's more likely to send you to sleep than it is to wake you up. So I need to be up in passion to send your heart rate and breathing rate up. I could go into descriptions of the others, but they're all in winning body language, which was the first book to ever write down this system. So those are the horizontal levels of gesture. Then at the same time, you've got to think about that you've got a plane here. I call it the door plane. Imagine me standing in a doorway in a door frame and I can be in front of the door or behind the door, or at least my center of gravity can be. The bit that drives the whole of my body can be in front of the door or behind the door. That makes a difference to how we perceive people. There's also something I call the table plane as well, which is exactly where your center of gravity is. That can be, and it's a horizontal plane. Your center of gravity can be below the table or above the table. We've also got something I call the wheel plane, which your center of gravity can be one side of that wheel or the other side of that wheel. So when I'm describing somebody's movement in shorthand, I can say something like they're in front of the door, above the table, to the left hand of the wheel plane, and their gestures are in closure. They're covering around the mouth area here. And that should give me a pretty good location as to how I think they might be thinking or feeling at the time. But remember that, how I think they might be thinking or feeling at the time, and how that might impress others as to how they're thinking feeling. If by no means says I can read their mind, that would be fantastic if it were the case, but there aren't any mind readers out there. I know I've had a really good look. Just nobody can do it at all, ever. Mark, I have a question. I have a question if I can remove it. How does culture impact that? Because moving your hands higher? Sure. So everybody is pretty much exactly the same on the planet. Two arms, two legs, and a head in roughly the same place. Roughly two arms, two legs, and a head in roughly the same place. There's more of the same in our DNA than there's ever going to be any difference from each other. All that culture does is amplifies or suppresses any of these elements. So you might find in a certain place on the planet, human people are coming up more into the passion plane, and you might even find... So I'm going to talk about circles now. First circle is where the hands are touching another part of the body. Second circle is when the hands move away from the body, and there is space here. Third circle is when these limbs lock out. So I might go to certain countries, and I would make a guess. The further I get towards the equator, the more they'll start going out in the circle and up the body. So I might expect in a Spanish marketplace, but I'm going to see people go into second circle more and up into passion, or even up into closure and disclosure. More like more. Now that doesn't mean that they don't spend some time down here, and it doesn't mean that if you're in the cold northern European countries where you'll see them more like this, that they don't ever do this because they do. It's just you don't get invited to those events, or they don't do it so often. You don't get invited to the places where it happens. It's more about you than it is about them, or it doesn't happen that often. But the moment you start saying Greg in terms of culture, well, they don't do this and they don't do that. You've already got it wrong. They do. It's just you never get invited to those situations, or they're more few and far between. I hope that answers that question. Why do I feel like someone's going to walk out and tell us it's time for lunch now? Because maybe it is. It's 11, 46 on one clock and 10, 47 on another. Of mine, there we go. No, I mean, that's exactly what... I feel like I was at one of those things. I found myself sitting there and I was like, geez, I thought I was at one of those speaking engagement, watching you watch the guy before you and you're going... That's great. Send the check. The McCanns will send my check. The McCanns have stopped their checks coming. I need a check. God's Lord. All right, well, Greg, what about you? Yeah, I have a whole bunch of them and I make that. It's just what I observe. And I try to keep things simple for people to have some kind of an icon in their head, some kind of a little lever or an anchor. So things like chained elephant. When a person's doing... You can almost equate it to guns and roses and axel rows doing that whole thing. But it's a way to release nervous energy by swaying. And they're really not swaying. What they're doing often is shifting weight from one foot to the other. If you go back and you look at Hillary Clinton when she was running against Barack Obama, she would often shift her weight from ankle to ankle. And if you think of an elephant with a chain on their leg, that's how they release nervous energy. Same thing. Humans are pretty simple. We're back to adapters.  I can't even remember what they all are. I think about... Jeff. I'm having my list. Jeff from Redirect. Yeah. Well, Jeff from Redirect came out of watching. A lot of people try to lie to me in real interrogations. And they would just spill information, just puke information, hoping that you would either, A, let them disappear off down a path, or B, you would pick up on one of the words that they're using. There's my hand again. You pick up on one of the words that they're using and anchor to that. And if you pick up that word and run with it, then of course they redirect the conversation to where they want, because they're very careful about what they're spilling. If you notice those people chaffing and redirecting, obviously it would be easy if they just puked up words. But most of them are not. They're puking up words that are not related to guilt. For example, when we watched this Gable Toasty thing, he avoided words like fight, kill, those kinds of things.  So they just puke up words and hope you'll follow them. That's a couple of mine. And I can leave it at that. And if we come up... Gable Toasty, isn't he? What's his name? What's his name, Jay? Is it Gable Toasty or is it...? I forgot his fake name. Okay, I'll throw it out there. I thought he'd jump on it. Maybe, I don't... What is it? I think it's Eric Thomas is a new name. He's changed his name. And I won't... There's no reason to burn up a whole bunch of this with those. If we come up with another one and you think of it, I'll fill it in. But yeah, a couple... They're simple for me. Should we tell everybody he's in the comments? I think he just did. I could take it out. Yeah. Well, that's two. Supposedly Ian Bailey's in one and he's in one. So... Yeah. I don't think I hear when someone's watching this that he's going to be relevant at all. Yeah, I don't think he's going to open with me. Yeah. Chase, what about you? Just pointing to an episode. I really want to hear one more from Greg. Which one? I want you to inform us all about taking the monkey to the dance. I was going to say the same. I need to know exactly down to find detail when I know I've taken the monkey to the dance or have I taken it just to the shops? And don't be doing it. It doesn't matter a whole lot. When you get the monkey to the dance, you can take it anywhere you want because they're no longer thinking. When I said that one time, all I think is you get a person to a point they're out of this frontal cortex where they have the capability to reason and logic and do all that. And you're after bringing the ape or bringing the cat even better would be an analogy. You're bringing the non-thinking reactive person out so that now I can manipulate them more effectively using illustrators, gestures, adapters, any of that because they're reading everything I'm doing. You get pupil dilation.  Then you can do, I can gesture, illustrate, do anything I want and start affecting how that person thinks. And that's where what Chase and I have used in our past and what Scott uses have come into play, those 14 ploys, those psychological ploys, like pride to go up, pride to go down, love of money, love of family, love of, all those things work more effectively when a person's rational brain is disengaged and they're back on their heels in the mammalian brain and responding. That's where that comes from. And the worm on the griddle thing, you know that's just something you ever see worms on the sidewalk squirming around. That's exactly when you have a person nailed down and they're trying to find an out. Scott's wild wacky water weasel thing is the similar thing in that they're trying to get out at all cost. My squirrel in the road, that's a very southern thing. This guy's like a squirrel in the road because if you've ever driven down a road where a squirrel is or running back and forth, can't figure out which way to go. That's quite simply people can get that kind of analogy and understand what it means. This guy's running around like crazy. So you'll hear me use a lot of animal analogies or things from my Southern upbringing. The South is full of lots of colorful language.  And you're trying to figure out what that means. It means nothing. It means this guy's dumb. And so I grew up with that language all around me and I find it some of the best. I should write a book about all the Southern sayings I grew up hearing. Some of them are going to appropriate for our show. You and Dr. Phil. Yeah, well, there's that. Yeah, it would be great to bring Dr. Phil on and say, give us a list of your things. Because he grew up in the same kind of environment, apparently. That take forever. Oh, yeah. That take a while. So one that I do a lot is called the Vanishing Perpetrator. And that seems to come out a whole lot during a 9-1 call. My kids are missing. My spouse is missing. There's an investigation of a murderer. It doesn't matter. We're talking to somebody who might be a suspect. Those people will tend to be less willing to discuss the villain of the story. So even if the story is only imagined, what would you imagine happened to ex-person? Well, I have no idea. So they don't want to narrow the focus of the investigation down onto a potential suspect if they are the suspect. Now, if you just imagine like someone hurts one of your friends or you randomly find out one of your good friends gets injured by another person, you're going to start building a list of potential perpetrators in your head instantaneously. Guilty people know who the perpetrator is and want you to view as many people as possible as the perp. So in 9-1-1 calls, whatever it is, that person is less likely to be focused on catching or getting the details out about who might have committed a crime or who might be responsible for something that happened. So Mark, what do you think? What's one of yours? Another one of yours. I think I did my full lecture on that. So I'll take a past second time around. Let's see if Scott can tell us about Extra Face. Because the first time you told me about it, we were on YouTube. It was our first episode. And I remember staring at my own face and going, oh, yeah. That's Extra Face. Because I'm looking at myself on camera. Oh, wow. So that was an important thing for me. All right. Cool. Well, Extra Face is I coined that after something I saw when my brother is in the TV and movie business and he was directing a TV show. And when he'd say action and the main characters would start acting, he'd say cut. He'd say, hey, you guys in the back, let's look more natural and look whatever. And I said, and he kept doing that. I said, why do you keep telling these people, what are you talking about? He said, watch these people when I say action. Watch what they do. And I said, OK, and he would do this. These people would always go and they had this really weird looking look on their face. Like if they were sitting by themselves, they would just be sitting there going, it was this really odd look. And what Extra Face. And so I said, oh, that's the extras.  They're not looking in the mirror. So they don't know how they look, but they're trying to look pleasant for everyone else and just looks unnatural when you watch the Kardashians or watch some of these reality TV shows. And the person is home by theirself and they walk around the house going with that look on their face. That's Extra Face. And you'll see that one. So if you see someone watch, watch people in the background on TV, when you go to the movies, watch people in the background. When you watch, oh, what's Larry David's show? Kirby Enthusiasm. When you watch that, tons of people have that on their face. They'll say action.  That's Extra Face. That's a long explanation, but that's what it is. You know, Scott, it's funny you say that because I was walking down the street in Manhattan recently and they're filming a Netflix thing there. And there's their signs all around that says, when you enter this frame, you're giving permission to be on camera. And guys walking along, everyone doing that same thing you're talking about. There you go. There you go. Yeah, it's odd. It's really weird when you see it. And then Wacky Water Weasel was just something that that guy looked like in that. What's what's a guy's name? We've killed his kid. That piece in Chris, Chris Watts. No, not Chris Watts. It was that other guy. I remember they were standing out front and the sheriff was standing there watching them. Caleb Wisner. These guys flipping out everywhere. Caleb Wisner. Yeah, so it's like a Wacky Water Weasel. So that's what that that's what that was. The only time I've really been able to use that. So well, I only use the monkey to the dance once, but I'm stuck with it. Yeah. Yeah. And the worm on the griddle thing, you're screwed. So all right. We also now a lot of times we'll talk about fading facts. I don't think that's something I made up. I think I use that a lot. And I don't remember where I heard it, but I heard it a long time ago. It must have been because I've been using a long time, but I don't think that's something I would come up with. I could say, yeah, I came up with that.  Because I think I don't I'm not sure I don't think I came. I'm going to say I'm not sure I came up with that. I may have, but I don't I don't know. I can't promise that I did. And fading facts is when someone is telling a story, they're talking about something. And when you ask them a question and it's something, did you do this? Did you not do this? How did this happen? When they start talking toward the end, they'll start getting quiet toward the end of the sentence like that. And so every time, excuse me, every time you ask them something, not every time, but quite often, especially the main part. And if you'll watch that stuff where we talked to Candace Wells, if you'll take a listen to that, you'll see this as well. Sometimes it'll get so quiet, nothing comes out. They'll just use their mouth. For example, we ask her a question three times where Greg did, did you do this? No. Did you do that? No. What about this? It was so quiet, we didn't even hear it. And they ask her again, it was no, really high. Excuse me. So fading facts is when someone's giving you their answer and starts getting quieter. The facts get quieter as they go along. I wish I could say for sure I thought of that, but I don't think I did. I must not ever. I feel like talking about it. So I got one a bit like that, Scott, which is word salad. Because I know I didn't make that up and I don't know who did. It's kind of common, common parlance. But every time I talk about word salad, what I'm talking about is because somebody is under stress or maybe they might be confused or they're under stress and trying to avoid telling you something very, very clear, they will take the words of a statement or a group of statements and they'll mix up those words. So if we think about a statement which would involve, I guess, Greg's idea of who and what and where. So the cat sat on the mat is that's a clear statement of who did it and not when but what and where. The word salad of that would be something like mat, sat, the, the, on cat. Now, all the words are there, but they're not in the right order either because I'm now my mind is tripping out because I'm trying to cover up for something. I'm confused. I'm under stress and it helps me avoid that. Now, one that I think I did make up is word lasagna, which is where there are and I can't remember who I made it up for. But there were layers of meaning. So with the cat sat on the mat, you'd get something like the cat sat, mats are available, very comfortable, I prefer a chair. So in that, what I've done is I've said that the cat sat, I've not completed it completely, I've not told you where, but I've said the cat sat, I've said that there's some other values involved. I've added another layer of value that the mats are available. I've then added feeling to that, very comfortable. And then I've been self-referential and looking into myself going, I prefer a chair. And I've taken you from the statement, not quite completed, to something about me somewhere else. So don't quite a good chaff and redirect by putting those layers in there. And that's often something you'll see when somebody is trying to avoid telling you exactly what went on. I'll tell you where this salad came from. Yeah, where did it come from? It was coined by Milton Erickson, who is a famous hypnotherapist. He's the guy who brought hypnotherapy into the American Medical Association. But he had an assistant who would always transcribe these notes that he took while visiting patients during clinical rounds. Then one day his assistant had a horrible migraine. So he was pretending to read this weird word salad, is what he called it, list from this schizophrenic or someone. And he embedded a whole bunch of little command words in there for her to not have a headache and had her transcribe it and made her headache go away. But that's where that came from. That's lovely. That's a great bit of info. Hey, do you guys think there's value in taking the list that created our bingo card and running through each of those? Yeah, let's do that. Yeah. See if I can find that and just give me a second. Yeah. Let me ask you this then. Am I saying lasagna wrong? Because Mark, you're saying lasagna. How do you say it, Chase? Lasagna. Me too. Almost. Yeah. So what's up, Mark? Is that British or what? What's a boffin? A boffin. Boffin is like a professor, somebody super, super smart. Oh, OK. Yeah, that's a boffin. Lasagna, I don't know because I'm not even sure it's an Italian word anyway. So I wouldn't even know how to pronounce it with more of an Italian. I think it's a made up. Lasagna may be a made up idea. Oh, let's try to think what it would be in Latin anyway. I don't know what it means. I'll look it up. So while Greg is looking around, we'll go ahead and cover digital flexion. Oh, nice. Let's do that. Digital flexion is what happens when a person's fingers retreat into the palm. And please keep in mind, all these body language trainings and stuff will tell you to look for these kind of almost still images, but that's never what you should be looking for. We're looking for changes and we're looking for movement and we're looking for something different. So what's different? In normal conversations, a person's hands are on a table. They're down at their sides or on their lap. Now, what do you imagine just if, let's say, you're in sales? And the moment you start talking about the interest rate, you see that person's fingers go like if they're on their lap. And the moment the interest rate is discussed, you see them go, oh, oh, yeah, that sounds great. So they're nodding their head, but you see the fingers start retreating in towards the palm. That's what we call maybe an unconscious objection that you're going to have to overcome. And you can overcome it without asking any questions. But we also see digital extension if someone's hands are like this on a table and all of a sudden their hands come out as they're talking about something, not this, but their fingers are relaxing more, moving more relaxed away from the palm. That's more likely to be a good sign. So if I'm talking, if I'm in car sales or something and I'm talking about a feature, a benefit, or something that's going on and I see relaxation, the fingers move to a more relaxed state when the person responds, that's a good point. I know I probably should talk more about that when I'm closing the sale. Joe Navarro talks about that and he talks about how the more space there is between your fingers, the more confidence you have about what you're talking about. So maybe that goes along with that or it could ride in parallel. Unless you're General Mattis. Why? Oh. Yeah. So Chase, here's a question because culture changes over time and even the military changes over time. Greg, go ahead and turn it up just a little bit, man. Something's happened to you right there. Sorry, I'm on my mic, sorry. Hey, Chase, so in, this is culture changes over time, especially in the military because it's a social organization that is constantly evolving. Is that not used anymore in the military? Because in my day, that's how you pointed at people. That's probably where Mattis got it from. Still very, very common. The old, they call it the knife hand. Yep, yep. The graybeards do it still. Everybody, yeah. Yeah, I mean, UK military, that is the way that you present with the chop, the chop on everything. Same in my day. Mark and I know that from our MMA practice rehearsals. We do MMA. I would pay to watch you guys in MMA. Hahaha, on each other. I'll send you the price. And... Who starts crying first loses. You guys who are watching, we can crowdfund this and we will put it on the show. So MMA Mail Massage Academy? That's exactly it, myself and Scott and Tarik will be getting in the... in the ring. I don't think I'd get in the ring. See him prison yet? I don't know. He's I haven't heard anything. He's probably out. I know I haven't heard anything about him. I mean, I haven't seen him on the news or anything. I guess they've is an old pokey. There's one of the words on our bingo list. If I run through the list of what's on the bingo list, it's tiger milk peach. When you hear one, let's bring it up and talk about tiger milk, peach, haddy, horses, southern, military, seer, G7, music, peaches, snort, grand narrative, brow beating, guarding the precious, bring the monkey to the dance, digital flexion, gum chew rate, psychopath goes out for Chinese dinner, sway rate, I'm just a girl, smug eyes, water, wacky water weasel. Who says that?  Let's see are there others I've missed. I think that's no non-contracted denial. That's the only real one really. There's a lot of stuff we use. There's like four things off that whole list. Four things that are real? That we use, yeah. That's one that people love. I think one that comes up quite a bit for us as a joke, but very seriously referring to this lifestyle of a person that we're analyzing is when Mark brings up, they're going out at 3 a.m. to get milk. That's an important concept because... Hold on a second. Hold on. Did you say milk? Milk. Milk. Man, you're around the family. You can tell that you're around the family too. Your accent's getting thick, man. You said milk. Milk. Sorry, man. Go ahead. So this, I think that's important for us to make that distinction that we say it a lot of times in jest. We're saying somebody's going out to get milk at 3 in the morning, but what we're referring to is originated by Mark and talking about the lifestyle of this person. Mark, can you give us like a 10-second... Yeah. So it was the Carol Baskin timer. Carol Baskin keeps tigers. She goes out at 3. She says, I'm going out at 3 a.m. in the morning to get milk by product. Milk by product. So it seems obscure and bizarre to us, but we don't keep tigers. So we just don't know whether you really super need to go out at 3 a.m. for milk by product or you don't. It's very difficult for us to judge somebody else's behaviors if we don't fully understand what they're having to deal with. And you all have noticed that from people who have kids and people who don't have kids. And so there's all kinds of behaviors that start happening sometimes when you have kids. And if you haven't had them yet, you're like, why is that? Why is that a thing? Well, for those that have them, they get the idea. For those that have tigers, that you get it. That's as short as I can make that one. I'll shorten it a little bit more. An outlier lifestyle will produce outlier behaviors. Love it. Microculture. Microculture. I've got horses, guys. It changes your entire life. Not when I was 10, what I've thought I would wander around behind horses picking up their manure and feeding them other stuff to dump. When you spend your life that way, your clothing changes. Everything changes around you. My vehicles and all that are associated with that. So I get exactly that. And that's culture. That's what culture does to you, right? Yeah, very true. Fascinating with culture, Greg. I guess it's that, that Twitter, not Twitter, not YouTube.  It's those kind of, it's that kind of thing. What are the behaviors that everybody knows, you know, what situation you're in without you saying, here's what situation I'm in. Yeah, brilliant. I'll just show you keep tigers without telling me that you keep tigers. I need one more. I'm going to get milk. Oh, it's free. I am. I'm going to get milk. Okay. What can we do when he's gone? Milk. Let's do something when he gets back. You did say milk. And there was one when we were signing off. It wasn't this last one. I had to cut it short. He's go, buy now.  I was like, oh dude, I can't let you do that. You should let it. No, I wonder if I did leave in. Nobody said anything. They didn't catch it, but sometimes you go, buy now. This is adorable. Are you in Texas now, Chase, or you're outside of Texas? Right here where I was born. Hot Springs, Arkansas. Oh, yeah. Okay. Right. Right. And I was taking this out and keep it on in the springs. Is it, is it really hot springs there? So you're not going to edit this. I'll pull a nipple out right now on camera. It's on you. So a bunch of lights for that. All right. This is a holiday episode. I do have to get a cup real quick. So if anybody has to go pee pee. Go. Let's do that real quick. I'm not going to take any of this out. I'm going to leave it in. So would you get a coffee? Holiday special. Yeah, should be fairly. I'm not going to take any of this out. Hand to God, I'm leaving it all in. I'm going to get some coffee. Me and Greg will shoot the breeze. So Greg, what is some of the stuff that people wouldn't expect you have to do with horses? Only people with horses would know. Well, it changes your whole life.  I mean, I can pick people out. There's a very odd one. Horses get this thing, this bacterial or fungal fungal thing in their foot called thrush. Yeah. And you have to treat it with Clorox, some kind of chlorine product or a copper based product. And you can pick each other out because you'll have a pair of jeans with a green stain on them. And you'll be like, oh yeah, it's copper sulfate. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's copper sulfate, exactly. But so it's that. But you know, you have a trailer. You have, if you have a trailer, you have to have a truck. You have a truck and then you've got other things associated. So it's a cascading kind of thing. Unless you have a horse at a given stable. And then there's a ton of associated language and that kind of thing that people use. And you can pick up on it. It's, yeah, it's, it looks like it's going to sit down and chase the spot down there. What does it look like? Who's going to sit down? Why don't we talk a little bit about the baseline? Greg, why don't you start us off? Well, here's where I will get certainly long-winded, but baseline is everything. There are two schools of thought and we talk about body omens. You're absolutist, people who probably ordered their body language stuff from the same pages of sea monkeys in the back of a comic book. And then there are folks like us who think, well, that doesn't really mean anything if you always do it. So if I always scratch my nose when I'm talking, it may mean I have an itchy nose, it may mean that's an adaptor or something I'm comfortable with, and it may simply mean nothing. Unlike the person who sits with their hands folded and you say, where were you Tuesday, the 16th of June? And they go, why would you ask that? That means something suddenly. So what we're doing is looking for deviation. That deviation can be on any one of many streams. If you think about a polygraph, it's called a polygraph because it measures three things. It measures galvanic skin response, meaning blood flow of the skin, respiration and pulse rate. And it's looking at three channels. Well, you could call us a polygraph as well because we're looking at many channels. We're looking at the body language piece, whether you're open or closed, to Mark's Truth Plane and all those, and looking at all those elements. We're looking at your choice of words or diction.  If your cadence of speech changes, you speed up or you slow down, we're looking at that. If your tone changes, and everybody knows what tone means because I can say it's not what you said, you'll finish the sentence with how you said it. If your tone changes, it means something.  So if you always talk that way, means nothing. But if suddenly something changes in your voice, something changes in your pitch, cadence, or tone, that means something. And then we go to head to tone body language. We're looking at everything from respiration rate to how much you lick your lips and how dry your lips may become to pupil dilation. We're looking for all of those elements that will wrap together as we start talking more about body language here. And when you start to illustrate more or start to illustrate less, when you barrier more or barrier less, when you adapt more or adapt less, when you regulate more or regulate less, all of those things mean something because we're looking across multiple channels. Scott, what do you want to add? How am I going to add to that? Yeah. So what you're looking for, once you see this person and you've talked to him for a few minutes, and he's pretty much got a good idea of how they are, if I was talking to Mark, and Mark was like, yeah, mate, and doing all that, and I said, what about that? Do you hear about that bank bean rob down there? Do you have anything to do with that? Well, I tell you, mate, lasagna. The two hard S's on lasagna. So that would be a lot different. That's a pretty big difference there, but you look for the subtleties and the change in that baseline. For example, the voice volume, the voice tone. What's the pitch? Is it a little higher? Like when Greg was talking about, is it a little higher and louder? Or is it a little lower and gets a little bit quieter? Or do they add fading facts as they get quieter and as they go along at the very end of the start to go away? So that's another thing we're going to listen to in the baseline. How fast are they talking? Are they talking really fast? I'm really fast talking in the first place. So it's not really hard for me to do that. And so I ended up doing that on here a whole lot. But if I was to talk normally, when you hear me talking really slow, I'm thinking about it because I'm a really fast talker. So if I get worried about something, then I start talking a lot faster.  And I'm not so sure about the tone of it will change. It'll get just a little bit higher. But at the same time, it'll get a little louder. What goes along with it being higher because your throat constricts a little bit and that pushes more air through faster and it gets louder. But that's one thing I usually, in a baseline, that's one thing I usually look for. Chase, what about you? Yeah, that was brilliant. Both of those explanations are perfect. And the one thing I teach if I'm teaching military or whoever is that your number one priority, our number one priority is to be in the business of change detection. So I'm detecting changes. So like in the Navy, we do mine warfare. So we have a known map of a harbor. So I know there's a big pile of tires underwater down here.  So the computers that are sweeping for mine, they're looking for changes and something that's known. So what we're trying to do at the beginning of most of our conversations, if we're actually talking to people and not doing an episode is I want to see how this person behaves in comfort situations. So you'll see if you watch videos of interrogation, you're going to see them start saying, where are you from? Did you grow up there? All right. And just for the record here, I need your name and give me your street address. They have all that information. They have all of that information. Number one, they're gaining compliance. It's called a wedge of compliance. So we start with small bits of compliance and we gradually increase that over time. But number two, they're going to start asking you questions that they know that you're going to respond to truthfully and then see what you look like when you are not being deceptive or not stressed. So we're looking for changes in behavior. And that's everything that Greg talked about, the pace, tone, cadence, word choice, vocabulary, all of that stuff. And in Mark's case, does your story change? Does the arc of the story change? Does it go back to Archimedes or something? I'm sure Mark will talk about here in a sec. But Mark, I think is fabulous. I've learned something every episode from Mark because he sees the world differently than people like me, Greg and Scott. He comes at this from a very different angle of character and story and plot and where this harkens back to in history.  Oh, let me weave this story like Hamlet. But there's this cultural archetype that's naturally coming out. And I always, I've gained and I feel like I've gained a new sense as a profiler just kind of listening to Mark every week when we when we hang out. So Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so let me talk a little bit about baseline and kind of universal metaphors, because there's the stuff we learn from culture and then the stuff we all innately have, which goes into metaphors. And you can see the baseline there. So all of us on the planet are fighting gravity. It's just the nature of being an organism on the planet, whereby we as an organism want to be more away from the ground than closer to the ground, mainly because we get a better view of what's on the horizon. If we're upright, but we've got a problem with being upright, which is gravity, we all have the same problem. And so, you know, when somebody is fighting that gravity even more the oppression of it, you might see them do that postural bump, which throws them throws the chest forward, but also gets them higher and gives them height dominance. When something is oppressive against them. Maybe I'm being questioned, and it's getting all a little bit on top of me. There's a use of metaphore. You'll start to see me shrink in. I might even start to turtle as gravity pushes my head in. Everybody on the planet, every human being on the planet will understand that because gravity is the same. It's literally the same for all of us. You can't go. You can't be a human being on the planet where gravity changes. It just, well, no, not on the planet. You can't. You can't. So we'd have to go very, very fast. You have to go super, super fast on the planet, and you're not able to go that fast right now. So look, there's that. And then to chase this point, there's the stuff we've learned.  And they've been told to you again and again and again, through different mediums, through slight changes. So whether you know it or not, you're using his stories.  So when you start to see people move into that culture or away from that culture using those stories, again, that can be enough of a change that you go, why have they started relying now on maybe not their own personal stories, but ones that are more universal?  So again, what is it? What does any of this mean? Well, I don't know, but is it a notable change?  And I go, let's explore that. Let's double click on that. Let's go down that rabbit hole. Is it the right rabbit hole? I don't know. But it's a rabbit hole to go down to explore more. So you see a notable change consciously, double click, go down that. Now, just last thing on this, that is very different from, well, I just use my intuition. I'm very intuitive. Yeah, your intuition is right some of the time. It's negative most of the time. Your intuition is only bothered with your safety today and the truth tomorrow. He doesn't care about fact. He doesn't care about truth. It has no care for accuracy. He wants to be safe today, accurate tomorrow. We want to make sure that we're being accurate as accurate as we can be today when we're reading body language, profiling, trying to work out what's going on in the world. So change, anybody, anything else to say on change? I would add one thing to that what you just said about human beings and our ability to identify threat. We remember when we're right as well. We don't remember when we're wrong because if we were wrong, and that's the reason we always mistake rocks for bears, not bears for rocks. Because if you're wrong one time there, you're done. So our brains are good pattern finders when they're positive to us. That's why we get all that bias and craziness. Yeah. All right, let's talk about one more thing and let's wrap it up. It's been a little while. What can we cover? What do we, what do you want to talk about? Let's talk about something not specific, so we're not sound at all technical. What about fighter flight? That was, that was a good one Greg had on. Yeah. So a suggestion, let's do fighter flight. And then let's talk just for a minute about why we're still doing this because I think you just hit it, Chase. I mean, every time we do an episode, I learn a little something from each of you. I think we probably have shared so much information. Even what we came to the table with, we're better at now. So I think it's talking about that. Close it out. You want to come with the fighter flight? Thanks, Scott. Let's also throw it around and just talk about how, how we all got into behavior in the first place. Sure. Nobody knows. So Scott, you disagree with that? Okay. Got it. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm trying. No, I'm thinking if I'm going to break in there and make this a second or a third. I'm editing right now. Sorry, dude. I'm listening. I'm just editing. Okay. Well, let's talk about fighter flight and how the limbic system, if you see behaviors that has something to do with the limbic system, is it a limbic behavior scene or a cultural behavior scene? Chase, why don't you start with that? So let's, I'm the science guy. So I'll start out with the science side of it and then you guys can do whatever. So the fighter flight response when people say that there's fight, flight, faint or freeze is technically with the new accepted model is, I like the friend option too. This is the person who they're in trouble and they're like, no, no, no, remember we had that good time together. So they automatically try to be friend. So this state is a neural brain state. So this is a part of our brain called the adrenal medulla produces this cascade of hormones. And this results in the secretion of something called catecholamines. And these are kind of categorized into two different types. One is norepinephrine. And the other one is epinephrine. So this sends this big signal down to our bodies that increases blood pressure. It moves blood out of the main part of our body here. So like when you go into the office one morning, and your friend comes up to you and they're really, they look really scared. And they're like, hey, the boss wants to see you immediately. Even if you don't know what it's about and you start worrying about it, you feel that feeling in the pit of your stomach or when you get pulled over by a cop. That's what's happening. The blood's leaving because of all this cascade of hormones. So this prepares the body to be ready for a fight. And it also increases your heart rate. Your pupils will dilate most of the time a little bit more. Any time there's a threat, we go into fight or flight, we want to let in as much light as we possibly can so we can run off and hide from a potential threat. That is the science of fight or flight. Most of our automatic responses are built in because it kept our ancestors alive. So keep in mind all the stuff that we're talking about, it's automatic for human beings because it kept our ancestors alive somehow. And that's a lot of what we deal with when we're talking about behavior and profiling. What is this person doing that kept their ancestors alive? And is it showing me something about what they're trying to say or what they're trying to get me to believe? Scott, what do you got? Yeah. I'm not going to add much to that because that covers just about everything on that, I think. Unless you guys got something you want to add to it. I got something to add to that. Yeah, I can go. Okay, go ahead. Greg, go ahead. Whichever. Yeah, so for me, I'm going to hand it off to Mark with about one of his books at the very end. So just hang in there. But for me, what Scott, what Chase just described is the neurobiological of what's going on. I always take a simple approach and say, your brain is the result of a lot of change in human beings over the years. But there's still a very primitive system underlying all that. And that's what Chase just talked about. And that primitive system is about keeping me alive.  You just don't know the difference. Your body is going to react the same way that very primitive system is going to kick in.  Well, first of all, your thalamus is going to pick up all this data coming in. And then it's going to route data to two places to your frontal cortex that's analyzing data. And to your amygdala that gets to say, well, that data will be good tomorrow. But today, we need to survive. And the amygdala gets first vote, your feet move, you stand up to fight, or you panic and freeze, or I think the latest studies Chase have agreed with you, what you call friend, they call fawn. So it's stumble all over somebody to get their approval. So you got fight, flight, freeze or fawn. And those four things have been successful for human beings to get us here. What you can see from the outside is you can see the pupils dilate, you can see blood go away from all the skin to the muscles because it's prepping to go and run or to fight. So you get pale skin, you get thin, drawn lips, dilated pupils, those things, all you see one of the more interesting to me in the old research is that in 45 micro seconds, your thumbs rotate in.  So you have to create an exoskeleton to protect yourself. That's where we start to see barriers on occasion. But in the most cases, your thumbs are going to rotate in as you then are trying to think and you're thinking with a different brain. This is a piece that people have a difficult time thinking. Educate your brain as much as you can under stress because you can't access the other brain when you're under that kind of duress. Seer school is based, you'll hear me talk about survival, evasion, resistance, escape, chase, you've been through it. We trained your brain under high stress. And if you remember seer school, you remember it kind of in shadowy images. When you get back to where someone has you by the collar, in a captive situation, all of those memories are going to come back and you're going to respond the way we trained you. That's an important piece of how our brains respond because you're running two different systems and it's all hormonal. You can be injected with epinephrine and those things and adapt how you respond. And the reason I know that is because you'll get to a thing called adrenal fatigue. We saw it happen many times in seer where a person gets to the point they're out of epinephrine and they're in a bind and they're starting to collapse into a ball and the docs come in and inject them and they come right back out of it. Now they're not ever quite the same for a while, but all of that I want you to know that fight or flight is biological. It's a way to protect you so you can analyze data later and it gets first vote. You can see it. You can see it externally. If you're internal, it also turns off your reproductive and digestive systems and you were talking about this parasympathetic and sympathetic trying to fight for control. You'll see pupils dilate and pinpoint, dilate and pinpoint. You'll hear their stomach roaring. If you're inside, you get butterflies. You feel cold and clammy and your hands sweat and you're trying to breathe to get rid of some of that waste product produced by your body. So your your respiration is increasing.  That's it. I want you to know what it looks like, what it feels like, and the biggest thing of this whole thing is you lose your ability to speak is one of the first things you lose because we work in three brains. We've got our primate brain, this well-developed prefrontal cortex, then we've got our cat brain or mammalian brain in the middle and then we've got our lizard brain. If we push you hard enough to get into lizard brain, everything else is gone and I'm going to hand it to Mark with that. Yeah, lovely. So let's look at a bit more of the chemistry around this because it might help you understand what those feelings are. So when fight and flight happens, adrenaline starts pushing out. That's from the adrenal glands, so on top of the kidneys. And they direct inject adrenaline right into your stomach because that's the best way to get the most adrenaline around the body as quick as possible is into the stomach and absorption into the bloodstream that way. That's why it feels odd there. You just got a neurotransmitter right into your stomach area.  The majority of those are actually in your stomach lining. There's a good use for that, which is that you feel good when you eat. You feel bad when you're hungry. And so those serotonin acceptors start picking up this adrenaline and go, well, that's a bit weird. That doesn't feel good. So you get this not good feeling. One of the things that adrenaline does is, yeah, you're right, Greg. It instantly wipes out short-term memory. So anything that you tried to short-term remember about how to deal with this threat, that's gone completely. Wipes out the neocortex. So it's not getting the right oxygen levels, language goes. That's why we're going when somebody starts to create a bit of a word salad. It could well be it might be fight and flight kicking in. It might be adrenaline. And the other thing that adrenaline does is start a process of metabolism called fat cleaving, which is where the adrenaline is actually used to cleave into fat molecules and open them up. So you're getting more energy per unit of kind of nutrition currency, shall we say? That takes a lot of water. So now water is having to be taken from all the rest of the body to deal with this fat cleaving process, which means you're getting this dry mouth. You're getting these dry eyes. It'll take water from anywhere it can.  Water's being drawn in. Weird feeling in your stomach going with all of that. And just as Greg says over time, you're getting this gaunt, you're losing fat really fast because that's being used for the energy. So over long times of fight and flight, which fight and flight can last, it doesn't have to last moments. It can last weeks and months and years in fact of high adrenaline. It'll deplete after a while, but you get that high adrenaline.  There's an extra little unit on that. So why don't we go around and just say why we got into this area of body language and why we keep on doing this show. Scott, what do you got? I got into it. I was a little kid. My dad's a doctor and he just got me interested in it. He had an office. We live in this place called Louisa, Kentucky, very tiny little town, 2,500 people. I think at the time maybe less. And for a little while, he was the only doctor in the town and the town was so small. We lived literally right next door to the school right there at 312 Boone Street in Louisa. And every now and then my mom would about once every week or so. I can't remember because we were little kids. But I was in the second grade at this time and my mom would come and get me and my sister and she'd bring my little brother with her and we'd walk down to the hospital and have lunch with my dad. And we would have it in his office. It was just a really big building and like two old houses put together that was the hospital. And one time we went in there, we were having lunch, which was really like this big huge closet type of thing or two rooms or something. I can't remember really. But what I do remember is seeing two of my friends sitting out in the little lobby there who were waiting to see my dad. And one of them was Billy Elkins and the other one was Robert Bellamy. And I said to my dad, I said, Hey, look, I know those cats or how have you say as a in the second grade? I was dude, that's that's Robert and Billy. And I said, What are they doing here? And my dad went like this. He went, Well, Billy's got an ear or Robert has an earache and he's here because his ear hurts. Wait, how is it going to bark? And he looked at Billy and he said, And there's nothing wrong with Billy. He's pretending he's sick so he could be here and not go to school or for whatever reason. I said, Okay, well, how do you know that? He said, Well, let's look at let's look at Robert. So of course, okay, his hand is on his ear. But for me, it was a big deal. I was like, Oh, wow. I see. So that let's me know was that let's me know his ear hurts. He said now and look at his face.  He's got that frowny face on. I said, Yeah, I said, Yeah, he doesn't look like he feels very well doesn't I didn't like it feels very well. So he said, Now let's look at his mother.  It's not been her hair has not been done. She didn't have any makeup on. I said, Yeah, he said, Well, that tells me she's been up all night with him because his ear hurts. I said, Ah, brilliant. You know, that's what about Billy?  Right. And he said, See, I was legs are swinging on the bench. I said, Yeah, he was looking like highlights or something. So he's reading the magazine. Look at that magazine. I said, Yeah, I said, Look at his eyebrows. He has eyebrows are up. I said, Yeah, he said, Now, what's going to happen is this? He said, See his mother.  She looks pretty. She's like, She's prepared to come down here. She looks well rested. What's going to happen is in a couple of minutes, he's going to his mother's going to lean over and say something to him. And his eyebrows going to go down like this is going to put a sad face on. He's going to look up at her sideways and say something to her. And she'll say something to him. Then he'll go back.  He'll get that blank look on his face and he'll keep looking at that magazine. His legs will start swinging. Well, within two or three minutes, that happened. I thought, My God, my dad's magic. How does it, you know, he can tell the future. How what is this? That's what got me. And from then on, he would explain to me, What's wrong with this guy? It's always limping. His leg must hurt. Yeah. So he started me really little observing behavior and see if somebody, How do you think that guy's feeling? Oh, he looks like he's a happy guy or this guy looks like he's mad. What kind of mad? He looks like, and I, you know, you don't understand frustrated back then. So they explained frustration and all those things. So I got a really good understanding of, of human behavior as a beginner and as a child, where you'd like to learn it through school as you went through, he would bring me home books and read me things, read studies, but it was in a language I can, you know, however you read that to a kid or explain it to, not every day. But as he would do that, I would just keep all that information. This was fascinated from, from then on out. And I just couldn't get enough of it. I still have a problem trying to get away from it. God, that was probably boring to sell. Chase was better than me. Your keynote check is, is in the post. Sorry. Yeah, that was a long time. So it might be my longest one there. All right, Chase, what about you? I joined the military when I was 17 and obviously had not gone to college yet. And I was stationed in Pearl Harbor and I was stationed in Hawaii for 13 years. So I lived in Honolulu for 13 years when I wasn't on deployment. But now 17 or 18 years old, we were down in Waikiki Beach one night. I'm a young sailor. We go into this Irish pub in Waikiki Beach called Kelly O'Neill's on Lewers Street. And I go in there and start talking to this young lady and probably my age. And, you know, after a couple hours, I said, Hey, do you want to ask her out on a date? And she goes, No, no, thanks. Like in a really mean way. And it hurt a lot.  Because I didn't want to, I didn't want to get blindsided anymore. I want to be able to see the objections before I decided to close a sale. Right. So I printed out this massive stack of papers on this. I busted a couple of printers doing it. It's huge. And I went through it every day at work. I would put it in a three hole punch and put it in a binder. And so I could read it while I was on the ship and doing Navy stuff. Everyone just assumed I was doing some official stuff because it's in a binder. So I got obsessed with this. And I realized that I had some degree of social anxiety where I was worried about being observed by other people. And I thought, I'm the only person in the world that feels like I'm faking it. I remember that distinctly. I'm the only one that feels like I'm faking it. And I started getting better at reading behavior.  Everybody's insecure. Everybody feels like they're faking it from time to time. And just being able to read behavior got addicting for me because I think it just cured my social anxiety.  And you see insecurities, you see fear, you see imposter syndrome, all kinds of other stuff.  So it made people approachable. And I got addicted to doing that. And then I started doing it with intelligence work and doing it training or psychological operations, psychological warfare commands and stuff like that. And I kind of evolved from there. And then I met these dudes and we started a YouTube channel. Welcome to nice. And that's the story. Mark. That's pretty good. Yeah. So at school, I was only really good, really, really good at just one thing. And that was making pictures and reading pictures. That was it. And it just so happened as well, that if you could make pictures and read pictures, you could be good at biology as well. You could get relatively high marks in biology because it's full of diagrams, even Krebs cycle, you can, I can, you know, I can still write it out as a diagram rather than try and put all the letters in the right order, which, you know, my Krebs cycle as a, as a, as a, in terms of chemistry, if I started writing that out as a chemical equation, it could end up, well, you'd die. You'd be dead. You'd have no metabolism. But as a diagram, I can do it. So I really focused on this idea of reading pictures and making pictures and how that moved with biology as well. Also back in the UK at that point, natural history television was big, was massive. And, and they spent a lot of money on natural history television. So it was a great education, just watching television, watching pictures of animals and behavior and human behavior, of course, with Desmond Morris's man watching, which became people watching and a TV series. And so I fell into it from that, this idea of how do people's movement tell stories? And how can we read those stories most accurately? I went into studying fine art and visual theater and film from that and worked in that area. Then a bit later, some politicians came to me and said, can you do all this stuff with politicians? And I went, yeah, I reckon so. And I went to the politics and then business, moved countries. I'm in Canada right now, met these guys, and it's great, you know, spending a little time each week, because how else do you best learn than having conversations with other people, testing out your own ideas, new or old on other people, hearing their ideas come at you? This is the most economical way, and certainly for me, because I don't have to read anything. I don't have to read, you know, read any words to get my information. The most economical way to get better at stuff is, is not only watching videos, but being part of those videos. It's fantastic. Greg, what are your thoughts? How'd you get here? So I started a little later than you guys maybe. I think I started, it was not later than you chased in terms of year, because when you were 17, I was probably already retired, because I'm the old guy. But I did start when I was 24, right in there, 24-25. I worked at Seer Compound, and the Seer Compound, the first time someone cried when I was interrogating them, because let's face it, most of us don't make adults cry on a regular basis. But the first time I made one of these guys cry, I came out and I talked to the psych and said, hey, what's making this guy cry? Is it real? Is it fake? And I remember the guy like yesterday said, well, if you were faking crying, how would you do it? And I said, well, I'd think about something sad.  And I said, I don't know. I'd use the part that made me sad, a memory from somewhere. And he said, do you think you can do that at the same time you're trying to hide information in that? And I said, well, no, I don't think so. He said, crank up the heat and see what happens. And when I cranked up the heat, he was right. If the guy is lying about it, and he's trying to use some other story, he's going to have a hell of a time keeping those two things together. When I did the crying dried up. And he said, you know, if it were real, when you're putting pressure on the topic and he was crying about the topic, was his family at the time, he probably would come apart. That started me down a path of trying to learn. So I went to a few little seminars and that starting with NLP stuff and those kinds of things and learning from those and taking that thing. Yeah, okay, I don't see that. The good news is we had a laboratory, a stress laboratory, where I was interrogating people four days a week.  And even then I thought it was a little bit, Chase, I'm sure you felt the same way when you first started touching it. How do you talk to people about this? Because it was kind of considered voodoo or snake oil or whatever you want to call it around people. The army likes facts and deliverables and that kind of thing. So I started there. And then over time, I taught it a little bit to interrogators and that, then I hopped out and I taught agencies and that. So it just grew and got to be something I was stronger and stronger with. So I started in the 80s. And here we are, like I said, it probably Chase was earlier than you even still. Because when I was 17, there was no internet. There was no computer. I think the only computers they had were the ones that were just coming out that had a tape deck that you could try to program. So yeah, I think the part, the reason I want to do this and the reason we are doing it now is I really appreciate you guys. I really appreciate this involvement, this challenge to what I think, this challenge to what I believe. And I've learned and changed some of my views, for sure, since we've started this, because we're challenging old thoughts and maybe even asking questions about why each of us believe it. Scott, you said each of us is bold enough to brand something with our name. That's how we got here. We didn't, if everybody stopped and only called it what Desmond Morse called it in the naked eight and 62, 63, we surely wouldn't be where we are. So I think it's okay to give yourself permission to name it something. If you're the person who's putting clusters of behavior around it. And I think we're changing hopefully some of that for each other as we go through this. And you guys are certainly a good anchor point for me. And I think we keep doing it because people seem to enjoy it. We would still be having the conversations, but as long as you enjoy this, we'll keep recording it and sharing it with you. Yeah. That's very heartfelt.  My yesterday was a milestone in my life and dealing with something and coming here is grounding and puts it right back together. So good. It's one thing we can look for. We have to look forward to every week as well. I know I do. I mean, every week and I go, okay, here comes, here comes Tuesday. Here comes Tuesday. Here comes Tuesday. What are we going to do? Then Greg and I talk for a lot on Sunday. When Greg texts, let's talk about this. When Greg texts, he'll text three words and three more words, four words, seven words, one word, three words. And it's this whole paragraph that could be one text, but it's like all these texts. So the first couple, I'd see my phone starts digging. I see the same thing. I was like, oh, I'm just going to wait. He's going to finish up in a minute and I'll read them all.  So that's why sometimes Greg, it takes a minute for me to get back to you, what you start, or as soon as I get the first one, I'll jump in and do one real quick and break it. I'm watching videos. I'm watching videos and I'm going, hey, we should look at this. You got to realize I'm watching four videos playing at two times the speed to pick out what we're using that week. So it's, Dina always comes in and goes, oh my God, I'm only part of that. That I'm making nuts because all that sound going on.  I wonder if he's the guy that come in and get a look at your browsing history, man. I hope you delete that every day. Get rid of your history. Because I'm going to go, this is the guy. That's him. He's done. Yeah, I probably have looked at more murder sites since we've been doing this. I have gotten to a point that I put a lot of them out in a box. I shared with you guys the other day because I need a break from going and looking at murders every week and child abductions and that kind of stuff. You just get tired of it. Other than that though, other than that, because sometimes we do get kind of bummed out when it's something bad, you know? I mean, they're all, none of them are good. I think you've only had real one that was funny, you know, someone where he did, what's his name? We're always going to have the Humalians together. Yeah, I was going to say, there's always the Humalians. What we're on this topic, if you, well, after we're done, let's talk about Souter and those guys because we got some stuff to bring up. Okay, let's talk about Bigfoot for a minute. Should we do one on Bigfoot? People who have seen? This thing first started with Greg and I were talking about doing videos on about people who had said they've seen Bigfoot. And then we just talked about, man, you came up with some great videos, man. Some of them were hilarious. And some of them, you go, you know what? This guy thinks he saw Bigfoot. You know, I personally, I haven't been shown there's a real Bigfoot. So I'm not, I'm not in the impression there's one out there. But some of these people, man, they believe they've seen Bigfoot. So if you're one of those people, let us know. We'd like to talk to you. And not some goof who's like, yeah, I'll tell them I have it. I really haven't. We'll be able to tell because we'll talk to you before that. Well, and look, guys, just because you think it was Bigfoot, doesn't mean we're going to beat you up for thinking it was Bigfoot. There was a game when I was, when I was working at Fort Bragg, who had never been in the woods other than basic training, came out and told me he saw Bigfoot.  That's pretty scary if you're from the Bronx. You've never seen a deer standing on his back feet, eating out of a tree. Yeah. I got the worst joke to go with that, but I don't know what to say. Anybody else want to add anything to this? No, it's a fun one. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. I think it'll go down. It's the most boring one we've done. Well, we'll see. We'll see. Oh, fun for us. Yeah, that's true. I enjoyed it. Well, if you like what we're doing, please subscribe. Just hit that little bell down there or hit that little red thing. Then hit the little bell. It lets you know when we have a new video come out. And when you do that, you become a subscriber to your panelist. And we have a whole bunch of them right now over 400,000. So we really appreciate it. Thank you so much. If you do subscribe and you may not know this from YouTube, but there's a little red box next to your name that we can see as we're going through the comments. And we always kind of try to hit those first. So if you do subscribe, we'll know it when you comment in here. All right, fellas, this is a good one. And I'll see you next time. See you around.


Hello, my name is Didier Stevens, I'm a Microsoft MVP and a SENSE Internet Storm Centre Handler, and I teach this training on malicious documents. I'm an expert in malicious PDFs and malicious Microsoft Office documents, and I also hold the SENSE Grame Certification Reverse Engineering of malware. I developed my own tools to analyse PDF documents and MS Office files, and those tools are used by a lot of analysts. So in this training, I'm teaching you how to use these tools. Let's take a look. The first day we are looking at PDFs. So I'm going to give you an introduction to the PDF language. You don't need to know anything about the PDF language. I will teach you the essentials necessary for PDF analysis. And then we will use my tools, PDF ID and PDF parser. So PDF ID is used to identify PDF files, to triage them, to see if we need to analyse them or not. And then PDF parser is the analysis tools for PDF files. I have 20 exercises that I completely designed for you, so they will teach you step by step how to analyse files, PDF files with PDF ID and PDF parser. And once we have done this, when we have worked through all those exercises, we will analyse real malicious samples. So let me show you how PDF ID and PDF parser work with a very simple exercise. So I run a PDF ID on exercise 5 and then you get this information. I will explain you all about it. But here you notice JavaScript with a count of 1 and Open Action with a count of 1. So this tells you that this PDF document contains names for JavaScript and Open Action, so that it contains most likely JavaScript that will execute automatically when the PDF is opened. So this is a good candidate for further analysis with PDF parser. So with PDF parser, I'm going to search for Open Action. So an object 1, it's a catalogue object, so it's a HOOT object. I'm going to tell you all about those objects. So the type is catalogue and you can see here an Open Action and that is 70R. So that actually refers to object 7. All objects are numbered, numbered in a version. So this refers to object 7, so let's select object 7 and you can see object 7 is an action object for JavaScript and here is the contained JavaScript. So it's actually just a message box in this exercise. So this is the exercise we are going to work through step by step. They become more difficult with obfuscation, for example. And then we move on to real samples. Now on day two, we are going to focus on malicious Microsoft Office documents. So I'm going to give you an introduction to the OLA file format. The OLA file format is the binary format that was used by Microsoft Office before the release of Office 2007. So again, you don't need to know anything about this format, I'm going to explain it to you. And then from Microsoft Office 2007 on, a new format was introduced, the Microsoft Office OpenXML format, which is actually a zip file containing XML files. And I'm also going to teach you that because macrophiles, macros, they are still stored as OLE files inside those OpenXML files. So when we are going to then work through about 20 custom design exercises, exercises that I made especially for this training, we are going to analyze them with OLE dump. And when we have worked through those 20 exercises, then we are going to analyze several real malicious documents found in the wild. Let me give you an example. I'm working here on a real malicious document here. And you can see, these are all the streams that you can find in the OLE dump file, you all have a name, you can see here macros, macros, macros. And then here, the indicator M indicates that this stream, stream 7, contains macros. So let's take a look at this macros stream. So I select stream 7. And since it contains VBI macros, VBM macros are compressed, so with option minus V we decompress them. And let's pipe this through less, sorry. Let's start this again, let's pipe this through less. Okay, so this is the macro. Here actually those constants here, those values that look like XML, sorry, hex code, they actually encode the URL because this is a downloader. And you can see there's a lot of obfuscation here. I'm going to teach you all about that. But I also have several plugins for my OLE dump tool. So let me run the plugin for HTTP heuristics on this sample, like this, and then you can see that for stream 7, the plugin hun, and it was able to decode URL. So I'm going to teach you how to decode this manually, but know that we have also plugins, we are going to use plugins that do this automatically for us. This training is very handsome. I prepared a lot of exercises for you. So if you are interested, please visit the website and register.