Lux presents Hollywood. The Lux Radio Theatre brings you Charles Lawton, Ella Reigns, and Rosalind Yvan in The Suspect. Ladies and gentlemen, your guest producer, Mr. Thomas Mitchell. Thank you. Greetings from Hollywood, ladies and gentlemen. Two nights a week in a vet and hospital not far from here, wounded and battle-worn soldiers gather around a visitor. This visitor keeps them in control with magic words delivered in an almost magic voice as he reads from Shakespeare, Milton, Sean, Dickens, for no one can surpass Charles Lawton in bringing life and warmth and color to the English language. He's standing in the wings tonight and he's ready to bring us universal thrilling mystery, The Suspect, with Ella Reigns as his leading lady. You know the last time Miss Reigns was on this stage about a year ago, we called her a brand-new Hollywood Discovery. Tonight we change that title to an established Hollywood success, a star whose meteoric rise is happily supported by sincere and brilliant talent. And also in our cast tonight is Rosalind Yvan, the gifted English actress whose ability to portray shrewish wives is in contradiction to a very gentle and delightful personality. All three appear in their original screen roles in a fateful triangle of marriage, love and murder that makes for one of the season's most exciting and suspense-packed melodramas. In a minute we'll take you to London in 1902, but while we're traveling let's look in at Arabia in 1945. Perhaps you read in a recent copy of Life Magazine an account of the King of Arabia's visit to an American destroyer on his way to Yalta. Well the King brought with him a convoy of small boats carrying cattle food and personal belongings just to make sure his majesty was served in proper Arabian style, but there was one important accidental touch. One night after a sumptuous stately past the King's servants passed among the guests a huge and magnificent metal bowl filled with rose water. In the center of the bowl resting on a little island was the final touch of luxury, a case of luxe toilet soap. We always knew luxe toilet soap was fit for a queen, but we're happy to note that it's also to the King's taste. Now down go the lights and up goes our coast-to-coast curtain on the first act of the suspect, starring Charles Lawton as Philip Marshall, Ella Reigns as Mary Gray, Rosalind Even as caller and Dennis Green as Gilbert Simmons. London in the spring of 1902 down a respectable side street, Mr. Philip Marshall comes home from work. His face is lined, his shoulders slightly stooped from years of service to the firm of Frazier and Nicholson, the veers of tobacco, but Philip Marshall carries himself with the dignity of an honest British tradesman. At his gate he greets his next-door neighbor. You've done wonders with your tulips. I've a green thumb like some balls. Oh, thank you very much for them afraid my wife hasn't much heart for gardening. It's so good of you to bring my husband home last night. Oh, I was glad to do it. I'm sorry, Gilbert carries on so when he's drinking. Must be a great trial to you. Whoa!  Cab? Oh, excuse me. Are you the one who called the cab, Governor? No, there must be some mistake. Orders, was it? Come to number 26. Just a minute, I better go and see. Well, Mr. Philip Marshall, no loving greeting to your wife. What's the cab for, Cora? What do you think? The penny bus is good enough for me. Did John send for that cab? Right as a button, aren't you? That's just what I'm hopeful did. He's clearing out bag and baggage, the selfish, ungrateful good for nothing. What did you do to him? What did I do to him? All I did was bring him into the world, nurse him, make myself a doormat, form to walk on. Oh, God! That's right! This is his own mother, you can tell him! Well, hello, Dad. Done packing? Sorry, I'd stick it out here on your account. Well, it is bound to come. What happened? Oh, she was at me all day. I was trying to get those reports finished. It's been a race at the office, you know, and I'd give my right arm for that job in Canada. Well, she got into one of her rages. Grabbed the report and threw it into the fire. Twenty pages a week's work. How about another place to stay? I'll stay at Jimmy Ester Brooks. I'm sorry, boy. Let me help you with those bags. Oh, no, thanks. I can manage. Hey, watch out for that broken step. I'll keep in touch with you, Dad. Yes. How's Sybil? Oh, oh, fine. I haven't seen her all week, though. She's a nice little thing. Is it serious between you two? Well, I... Well, it's a pity this house isn't good enough for you, John. Goodbye, Mother. Goodbye, Mother.  To of a kind, that's what you are. I'll see you soon, Dad. I shall miss you, son. Goodbye. Well, Philip. Philip, come here.  Just a survivor of common servant. I know what's my do, even if you don't. Cora, I'm moving my things into John's room. Well, of all the insulting. We're married, aren't we? Yes, we're married. Then how dare you? I forbid it. No, Cora, that's all over now that John's gone. I'm moving out of our room, and there's nothing you can do about it. What's got into you? What are you thinking about? It's much better that you don't know, Cora. You might frighten you. Here's your chain, sir. Excellent tobacco. Praise her in Nicholson's best, and thank you, sir. Good afternoon. Merry-dew. Merry-dew. Yes, sir? Mr. Marshall wants to see you. Go on now into his office right away. Yes, sir. Can you do, sir? Come in. Merry-dew. I have a very serious matter to bring to your attention. Yes, sir? I regret to say there's a penny missing from the stamp box. It was for sugar bun this morning. And the tuppence yesterday, what was that for? Acid drops, sir. But I'll put it all back on payday. That's what all embezzlers plan to do. But I'm not an embezzler. Yes, but you started that way. It's the first step that counts after that. It all becomes very easy. Sixpence tomorrow, half a crown the day after. Oh, but... I know you mean to pay it back, but you may finish by paying it back in the Portland prison quarries. Oh, don't send me to the prison quarries, please, Mr. Marshall. Well, not this time, Merry-dew. Now stop sniffling.  A young lady to see you, Mr. Marshall. Oh, run along, Merry-dew. Won't you come in, Miss... Gray. Mary Gray. Miss Gray? What can I do for you? I'm seeking employment. Work? Here? Selling tobacco? I mean office work. I can take dictation. We're quite satisfied with our young men. But some of our young men have been with us here for 30 or 40 years. I see. I'm so sorry. I think you might have better luck at the draper's establishment. I've tried. Thank you. Good afternoon. Oh, Stanton. Yes, sir? Might as well lock up. Six o'clock. Six o'clock. The days are getting longer now. Yes, I've got a good mind to walk home. It'll be nice walking through the park. Very nice, Mr. Marshall. Oh, good evening, officer. We're going to have a lovely sunset. Yes, be a fine evening. I thought... Hello. What's the matter with her? Her, sir? A girl on the bench. She's crying. So she is. I usually let them cry it out. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Let them cry it out. It does them good. Evening, sir. Good evening. I beg your pardon. Is there anything I can do? No. Go away, please. Leave me alone. Why? Hello, Miss Gray. Oh, Mr. Marshall. I don't mean to intrude, but I... Oh, very kind. I'm afraid I'm behaving rather badly. Oh, now, now, now. Come, come, come. It can't be as bad as all that. You know, I'm really sorry about the work in my office, Miss Gray. And just that, I was feeling a bit down. All at once it came over me how terribly alone I am, you see. My father died in the winter. There were just the two of us. Well, I know how it is to be lonely, and I know that it can be faced. Does that make you feel any better? Ever so much. Where are you going? Home. Oh, I see. A cup of tea, a sixpony novel, and a good long cry. I'm afraid you've been looking in at my window. Hmm. Shall we pool our loneliness? What do you mean? Oh, go somewhere and have a bite of dinner and a talk. You know, I'm sure that I know someone who needs a clever young lady to take dictation. Well, I... Why don't you join me just for this evening? You might enjoy it. It'll be a great kindness to me. Well, I'm sure it would be to me. But aren't you on your way to someone? Someone? No. No, there's no one. I know a nice little Chinese restaurant on Malvern Street. Now, come on. Get a cab. You know, it is really good of you to take me on trust. Oh, not all together on trust.  Married you? The one you're not going to send to prison. He's a desperate character, don't you think? Oh, so desperate I wanted to hug you. That's the danger with his type.  You were so gentle with him. Gentle? My dear Miss Gray, you will discover in time that I have a heart of stone. Did you enjoy the dinner? I loved it. But I'm afraid I'll never learn to eat with chopsticks. You know the answer to that one. Practice. We must eat here often after this. OK. Put the night to play. Two tickets, please, the stalls. Philip, aren't you being frightful expensive?  Oh, Philip. He plays beautifully, doesn't he? Beautifully. It's been so long since I've been to a concert. We'll come again next week. Well, here we are. My rooming house, Philip. Good night. I've had such a good time. These have been the happiest weeks I've had. Oh, you say the nicest things. Philip, you do the nicest things. What have I done now? Have you forgotten that you got me my job at Windwoods? I don't remember a thing about it. All I remember is we're having dinner tomorrow night. Oh, Philip, Philip, I can't. Why not? Mrs. Packer, I've told you about her. She works at Windwoods. Oh, she's been frightfully nice. I've asked her and her husband to have dinner with me. Oh, I see.  I like so much to have you meet me. I'd like to, Mary. Oh, now come along, Philip. Now, Mary, listen. You and I are pretty good friends. The best. We've had a lot of fun together. Can't we go on just like this, just the two of us? Why is it, Philip, that you don't ever like to meet anyone? Oh, I don't know. I chap my age has a right to a few peculiarities. I know there's something if you'd only tell me. Nothing to tell. Well, as you wish. Good night, Philip. Mary, what about the night after? You know. I'll say yes. Good night. Good night, Mary. Cora, I know you're not asleep. I saw you lie down from the street. Cora! Come in. Flattered, I'm sure. I light the key to my bedroom, Cora. You've locked the door. Where have you been? My key, please. Answer me. You were out with that good for nothing from next door, weren't you? Cora, please. Don't try to deny it. I heard him staggering home just now, and you were with him. Yes, Cora. I brought Gilbert Simmons home. I ran into him in front of a pub. He was drunk as usual and causing trouble. And what business is that of yours? Cora, hasn't his poor wife enough to put up with as it is? His poor wife? What about your poor wife? How much longer do you think I'm going to stand for this coming in at all hours, for the whole street's beginning to gossip?  Do you hear me? I'm sorry, Cora. People choose to embarrass me. Oh, lot you care. What have I ever done to deserve this? Whatever possess me to tie myself up to a poor stick like you? Walk through the forest and pick the crooked tree. That's what I did. A fat, ugly, crooked tree. And I don't care if I never hear actually voice again. Cora, don't you know the neighbors can hear every word you say? I don't care. I'm nothing to be ashamed of. If we could only talk quietly, come to some sort of understanding, Cora. Now, look, we've never been happy together, not once in all the years that we've been married. And whose fault is that? I'd like to know. Doesn't anybody's fault? Over and over again, we've tried. But when two people are shut up together and they don't love each other, everything they do becomes hateful just because they do it. Oh, so that's it, is it?  You've always hated me. Cora, I did not say that. Will you please listen to me? All I say is that we've got some good years ahead of us, both of us. Why can't we live them happily apart from each other? Apart? What do you mean? Let me go, Cora. Divorce? Yes. Divorce? Never in my life have I heard of anything so immoral. Divorce, indeed. Oh, no. I'm not going to be laughed at. A woman who couldn't hold a husband. Just for that, you'd ruin both our lives. We are married. And we'll stay married till death. Do you hear me? My mind's made up, Cora.  Oh, you are. Are you? Well, you just try. Just you try it.  I knew it was no use talking to you. There's no way out, is there? Oh, yes. There is for you, Mr. Philip Marshall. Out of your shop. Out of your job. Ha! Won't I love seeing their faces when I tell them that their very respectable manager, Mr. Philip Marshall, wants to desert his own wife? And I will tell them so! Help me! Philip, you haven't eaten the thing, aren't you, Will? Oh, I'm all right. Did anything happen on your way here? You were so late. No.  What is it? I've been wanting to tell you all evening, Mary. After tonight, we can't see each other anymore. What did you say? I said we mustn't see each other ever again. Oh. Don't look like that. Philip was such good friends. It's meant so much to me. It's meant everything to me. Well then, don't you think I deserve to know? Tell me, Philip. I've behaved very badly, Mary. Do you remember the first time that we met? I told you that I had no attachments and no ties of any kind. Philip, you're married, aren't you? Yes. Wasn't very fair, was it? No. I was afraid you'd never see me again, and I was so sure that my wife would give me a divorce. Won't she? No. This is our last time together. You've risked too much already. But Philip, please, we're only friends. We're hurting no one. Is there anything wrong just seeing each other? She followed me here tonight, or she tried to. Your wife? Yes. She's going to shake her off finally, but sooner or later she'll find out, and I'm not afraid for myself what she might do to you. She must... I'm much too fond of you, Mary. What a pity this had to happen now. I hope your Christmas will be happier than mine. Christmas? It's only two weeks away. Well, we can still drink a toast. Mary, my dear, to you. My dear. My very dear. Hello, Cora. It's a Christmas tree. Couldn't you find a better way to waste your money? It'll help to cheer us up. Christmas comes but once a year. And where will you hang the mistletoe? The mistletoe? What? Aren't you going to kiss me under the mistletoe?  There's no one else, Cora. No. Wouldn't it be better if we try to make things a little pleasanter, try to make this place a little more like home? Oh, I heard from John today he may be going to Canada soon. Always thinking about your family, aren't you, love? No more evenings at the pub, no more office work to keep you out late. A real little family man. You'll help a bit, won't you? There's no place like home, is there?  That's who she works.  Well, why don't you try to deny it? It's true, Cora, but it's all over and done with. Is it? Not for me, it isn't.  Cora, no! And I'll do the same for her. I'll go to the house where she lives, I'll go to the place where she works, and I'll let them know the low creature she is. Cora, you're driving me... I'll drive you both into the gutter where you belong. On the shore as the sun rises tomorrow, I'll give her a merry Christmas you'll never forget. Now aren't you afraid? No, not afraid for her. Not for her. Why, Mr. Marshall? This is Simmons, please. This is my wife. Would you go for the doctor? Your wife? What's wrong? It's been an accident. I'm afraid she's dead. In just a moment, Thomas Mitchell and our stars will return in act two of The Suspect. I believe everyone will recognize this game. Gosh, Mary, that's good bowling. Beginner's luck. I'll probably never do it again. But here goes. Oh. Oh, never mind, honey. Gosh, you look cute with your cheeks all pink like that. Say, don't worry about your score. You sure bowl me over. Yes, luxe girls are winners when it comes to romance. Smooth radiant skin never fails to charm. These clever girls take their complexion tip from Hollywood. They do what famous screen stars do. Depend on active lather facials with fine white luxe toilet soap every single day. Lovely Jean Tierney tells you how she takes her luxe soap beauty facials. I cover my face generously with the creamy lather and work it gently in. I rinse with warm water, then cold, and pat my skin dry with a soft towel. It's the way to really lovely skin. It's a fact. Hollywood's active lather facials really do make skin softer, smoother. In recent tests of luxe soap facials, actually three out of four complexions improved in a short time. Why don't you try them? Begin tomorrow to give your skin this gentle, cherishing care, nine out of 10 screen stars. Lovely women everywhere. Finds so effective. We pause now for station identification. This is CBS, the Columbia Broadcasting System. Act two of the suspect, starring Charles Lawton as Philip, Ella Rains as Mary, Rosalind Even as Cora, and Dennis Green as Gilbert Simmons. It's several hours later, while the neighborhood buzzes with the tragic news of Mrs. Marshall's sudden death, an early morning visitor fills out a routine report. We did to ask these questions, Mr. Marshall, when we were so upset and all, That's all right, constable. The police department has its regulations. Everything you've told me checks with the doctor's story. The deceased was coming down the stairway. She tripped on the broken steps, suffering fatal injuries when her head struck the ballast. Yes, yes. Thank you, Mr. Marshall. That's all I need. Another day has passed. The funeral is over, and departing callers mumble sympathy to Philip and his son, John. Last to leave is their next-door neighbor, Mrs. Simmons. You would have done without you, Mrs. Simmons, these past two days. No, it's been nothing, Mr. Marshall. After all you've done for Gilbert and for me. Take good care of your father, John. I will. He looks so tired. Have you slept at all? Oh, I think perhaps I'll sleep tonight. You must. And I've brought you this. It's dexters anodyne, a sedative. Sedative? Rather afraid of drugs. Nonsense. Dexters anodyne. Just five drops in a glass of water puts you right to sleep. It isn't dangerous, is it? Not if you're careful not to take too much. Just five drops. Try it, Father. It might help you. It's very good of you, Mrs. Simmons. Good night. Good night, John. Good night, Mrs. Simmons. Well, Father. Well, boy. I wish there was something I could do. Oh, I'll manage. You've borne up wonderfully. I'm proud of you. You run along, John. It's getting late. You sure you don't want me to stay? No. I'll get along fine. Poor mother. I just want you to know, Dad, that you've nothing to reproach yourself with.  It might rain. You'd better take an umbrella. Maybe I'd better. I say, Dad, where's your walking stick? You know, the one with the heavy handle? I don't know. I must have left it somewhere. It doesn't matter. Good night, Dad. Good night. Mr. Philip Marshall. Yes? I'm sorry to intrude at such a time, Mr. Marshall. I'm Inspector Huxley. It's Scotland Yard. I'd like to ask you a few questions. Come in. Questions about what? The death of your wife. Do I answer all those questions? Yes, I read the reports quite thoroughly. The coroner called it accident. Mr. Marshall, there was some insurance in your wife's name. 3,000 pounds. Yes, we both took out policies some years ago. Lots of people do that. Is this the stairway where the accident occurred? Yes. Do you mind if I look about? Not at all. Oh! This broken step. This is the step she tripped on, I suppose. Yes, that's right. You should have a thing like that repaired. We meant to have it repaired a long time ago. And that's the room she came out of. No, that's my room. Hers is on the other side. Oh yes, yes, of course. Well, it's much clearer now. It's much better than trying to visualize things from the written report. Imagine it must be. Oh! Is this where she struck her head? Yes, the ballast was broken. So you had it replaced with a new one? Yes, I couldn't bear the sad. Why do you make a point of that? Oh, no particular reason. Only it seemed curious. We find the broken step unrepaired, but the ballast was replaced immediately. What are you trying to suggest? Suggest? Nothing. But let's suppose, purely from my point of view, that it was not an accident. That someone had made up his mind to do away with his wife. For reasons only he knew. But it had to be done. Now let's suppose he took one of these canes. The heaviest. Then he went up these stairs. But it quieted. He came to this broken step. Perhaps he pulled the carpet loose a little to make sure that it looked broken. Now he's in the darkness of the upper hallway.  Cora, he calls! And again! Cora! Her door opens. For a moment she stands there grumbling and wondering why the whole light isn't burning. Maybe she cries sharply. What's the matter? He holds his breath. She stands so near. Her voice called once more. Philip, are you all right? His hand tightens on the stick. She passes him. She goes downstairs. One, two, three steps. It's no or never. He raises the stick. The blow falls. And he follows her as she crashes. She isn't dead yet, but she has to die. Slowly he raises the stick. Stop it!   I'm sorry, Mr. Marshall. I merely said if your wife was murdered it could have happened that way. But it didn't. You haven't a shred of evidence. But it is an interesting point of view. Now, if only we could find something. Some little something as a motive.  No, I don't. No? Well, good night, Mr. Marshall. It's been such a long time, a whole month since you wrote me, didn't you? Since you told me of your trouble. I didn't dare to meet you, Mary. Even tonight I'm afraid they may be watching me. They may have followed me to this restaurant.  Mary, I couldn't have you mixed up in this sort of thing. What are people for, people you love? Can't you see that if you were in trouble I'd want to share it? Not that kind of trouble, just to be suspected leaves a mark. All right. Let it leave a mark on both of us. Because I don't intend to let you go again. Mary. The compliments of the house are best way. It's very good to see you again, sir, if I may say so. Thank you. It's very good to be here. Shall I pour it? By all means. This is an occasion. You see, Philip, they missed us. Mary. My dear. My very dear.  I'm Inspector Huxley, a Scotland Jard. I'd like to talk to you about Philip Marshall. Go on. We know you've been meeting lately. In fact, he left you at this doorway last night. How long have you known, Mr. Marshall? Since last May. Well, surely you knew he was married, yet you continue to meet him frequently. What are you driving at? What are you trying to find out? It's quite possible that Mrs. Marshall was murdered by her husband. Philip Marshall, a murderer? Nonsense. I think you're making a fool of yourself, Inspector. What you think isn't evidence, Miss. But you've admitted meeting Mr. Marshall and that's very valuable evidence. In finding you, we've found the motive we've been looking for. You'll be called as a witness for the crown, Miss Gray. Not Miss Gray, Inspector. Mrs. Philip Marshall, we were married this morning. Oh, I see. A very shrewd move, wasn't it? A wife can't be made to testify against her husband. You know it's a very funny thing, but we never thought of that. Didn't you really? No. And it's just coincidence that you silence the only witness whose testimony might hang you. Philip, must we listen to this? No, we mustn't. Inspector, you're getting rather tiresome with your accusations. We don't intend to listen to them any longer. Is that clear? Well, don't you think that an innocent man might be more understanding? I think an innocent man might behave precisely as I have. Well, I'm sorry. I can't agree with you. Well, then here I am. Why don't you arrest me? I'd like to, believe me. Yes. But you've run into a blank wall. You take my advice and don't beat your head against it. Please understand, Mr. Marshall. I have a job to do. The whole thing. If I have, I'm very sorry. Very well. Let's forget it. May I wish you a most successful marriage and a long one? Thank you. Mr. Honey, John and Sybil are here. They're waiting downstairs. Sybil, what's she like? She's a little bit on the light side possible, but she's very pretty. I wish she's John's first girl, and I hope you like her. Oh, I'll do my best.  A very precious prize for any woman. Now, that's enough of that. You come along now. You're trained for market leaves in 40 minutes.  I'll be down tomorrow morning. Hope the weather clears. We'll come back tonight.  I've got to run along to the shop. Have a good time. Goodbye, darling. Don't forget to feed the cat. Margaret. Margaret. Another cherry tart, please. Another cherry tart, Mr. Marshall, and you on a strict diet. I know, but it's Saturday and my family's at the beach and I've got to work in a stuffy shop. I need some consolation. Very well. Another cherry tart. Marshall, may your disillute neighbor sit down? Hello, Simmons. I suppose so. Thank you. Well, since you press me, I'll have a spot of whiskey. Oh, Miss, a double whiskey and soda. Yes, sir. You can forget that cherry tart, Margaret. Oh, don't tell me I've spoiled your appetite.  You are not irresistibly drawn to me, are you? No, I'm not. I saw your wife this morning. She said she'd cut her eyes, tumbling against her door. Well, wives get tarsome at times, you know? I know this. You've got to stop knocking her about. No, it's easy for you to talk with a nice new wife and a very pretty one. All beer and skittles now, isn't it? I'm very happy if that's what you mean. By the same token, I'm not. It's your own fault. Oh, I quite agree. It so happens I'm a rotter by nature, a complete rotter. Why can't you get a hold of yourself? You're still young. You have a charming wife. And no money. You couldn't let me have a fiver, could you? Just until my wife's allowance comes due? Not a brass farthing, at least not until you go to work. Work? My dear, Marshal, work is for the working man. There, that'll pay for your drink. Goodbye. Thanks. Shopkeeper. Miss, where's that drink? Coming, sir. Changeable weather, isn't it, Mr. Simmons? Filthy. Huh? Who are you? Inspector Huxley. Oh, Miss, bring the gentleman another drink. Thanks. Are you the police chap who came asking questions after Mrs. Marshal's death? That's right. Who are you stalking now? Your neighbor, Mr. Philip Marshal. I beg your pardon? What was that?  Do you mind saying that again? You interest me. You don't know how much you interest me.    Nice fella. Oh, well, Marshal, left all alone to mind the cat, eh? I found your back door open, so I thought I'd come in and continue our chats. Chat with you is something I could do without. I've got a pack. I'm going to market in the morning. Will the weather turn this beastly? I'm clear by morning, so if you'll excuse me, I'll come. Oh, no, no, no, come. Surely you've a moment for a reformed character. I've decided to go to work. I've got an idea, and I'd like your opinion. Yes? It's a good idea, with a bit of luck. Luck is important, don't you think? No, I don't. A man makes his own opportunities. Well, you ought to know. What do you mean? Oh, nothing.  It wasn't that luck, pure and simple. Now, look here, Simon. Mrs. Marshal dies, and you come into a pot of money, and the coroner says, unfortunate accident.   But Inspector Huxley doesn't seem quite satisfied that Mrs. Marshal's death was accidental. Huxley? Huxley thinks that you, shall we say, helped your wife to a better land. But he can't prove it. He needs a witness. Tussy. And I need ten pounds.  In these houses, the walls are very thin, you know. That's how I happen to hear you and your wife arguing that night. You heard nothing. But suppose I were to swear that I did. Suppose I were to swear that I heard her cry out. You didn't. That I heard the blow. You're lying. That I heard her say, Philip, don't. No one had ever believed him. Possibly, but it might put you in a very awkward position if I were to give evidence for the crown. Hmm. Yes, it might. Quite right. It might put me in a very awkward position. Well, here's five pounds. It's all I've got with me. Well, the banks will be open on Monday. On Monday, I'd like 25 pounds. Another 25 next week? Mm-hmm. I'd think that reasonable. And the week after that. And the week after that. Oh, I'll let you down as lightly as I can. I say, have you got such a thing as a spot of whiskey in the house? Whiskey. Mm-hmm. Uh, yes. It should be a bottle somewhere. In the pantry. I'll go and fetch it. Now, the bottle. Bring the bottle. You know, Marshall, you're taking this very sensibly. Well, you won't regret it. After all, you've got a lot to lose, even if you do have to stay at home and mind a filthy cat. Yes.  Measuring out that whiskey? Bring it in here. I'm sorry. I had a little trouble finding it. Here you are. Help yourself. One glass? Aren't you going to have a... Oh, well. Oh, that's pretty foul whiskey.  Not if you know your man. And I know you, Marshall, like a book. I say, don't you ever show any fight? No. I've never been a fighter. Soft, like that kitten. Turn the other cheek. Reward in the hereafter. I like people and I've never wanted to hurt them. That's a great mistake. Do you suppose I ever worry whether I tread on the other fellow's toes? No. I don't suppose you do. There you are. Here I am, sweet and cosy for life. Or for as long as your life lasts. That's rotten whiskey, Marshall. Shopkeeper's whiskey. It's hot, isn't it? You see, Marshall, your lot were created to make life easier for my sort. Meek inherited the earth and she inherited the meek. Not bad. Whiskey's bad, though. Tastes like, like... Dext as anodyne, perhaps? Dext. Never heard of it.  That's how I got you. There's no more fight than a sheep killer. A fly. Oh, the whiskey. You poison. I can't. I can't. In just a moment, our stars will be back with act three of The Suspect. Meanwhile, here's Mrs. Smith getting some extra special help in her kitchen. Oh, Jim, you don't need to bother with those dishes. I want you to rest while you're home.   Why? It's only a little scrap left on this plate. They wouldn't let you get away with that in the army, Mom. Why, they even save the soup skimmings and render down every bit of leftover solid fat. All you have to do is melt it in the oven, you know. Is it really that important, Jim? They tell us there's enough fat thrown away right in this country every year to equal what we used to import from the Far East. And boy, we sure need that used fat. Yes, we do need that used fat desperately, and most of it will have to come from the kitchens of America. Our pre-war imports of a billion pounds a year have been cut off. We need fat for literally thousands of uses on the war front, on the home front, too. For instance, used fats help to make munitions, medicines, military and civilian soaps, synthetic rubber, and coatings to protect ships, tanks, and fabrics. But with meats of scarce, how can I save more? By saving every single drop of used grease, no matter how burnt or black. Render down all scraps. That's very important. Keep it in can handy on the stove. Rush it to your butcher when it's full. If you live in a rural district and have trouble in disposing of your used fat, call your county agent or home demonstration agent. And remember, for every pound you turn in, your butcher will give you four cents and two red ration points. Your government needs your help in this vital matter. Won't you save and turn in all you can? We return to Thomas Mitchell and our stars. Act three of the suspect. Starring Charles Lawton as Philip, Hela Reigns as Mary, Rosalind Even as Cora, and Dennis Green as Gilbert Simmons. Only a few minutes have passed since the lifeless body of Gilbert Simmons crumpled at Philip Marshall's feet. Calmly and thoroughly, Philip has started to remove all evidence. The whiskey bottle, the glass, the vial of Dexter's anodine. But suddenly, he frees himself in terror. Voices he quickly recognizes are clamoring at the front door. He has no time to think. Dragging Simmons' body to the parlor, Marshall hides it under the sofa and then, collecting his shattered nerves, he opens the front door. Hello, Philip. Hello, darling. I'm Sebel, I'm John. How are you and all of you? I'm sorry I took so long. I was upstairs. Oh, our whole weekend spoil. Oh, this miserable rain. Does it always rain at Margaret? Always when we go there. Let's go in the parlor. We can start a fire. A parlor? Yes, why not?  Yes, of course. A double spot to warm us up, eh, Sebel? Make yourselves at home. Philip, whiskey's in the cupboard, isn't it? Philip! Yes? Come on, help me find the whiskey. I'm sorry, darling, but there isn't any. Oh, Philip, is that what you do when my back is turned? How about some sherry? Fine. It's right here. Shame you had such bad weather. Oh, well, it was lonely without you anyway. Well, we'll try it again before long. Come now, help me take these glasses in. Oh, Sebel, I'm not gonna bite you. Come on. Look at those two lovebirds on the sofa. Yes, they're... Philip, what's the matter? Nothing. Ah, liquid sunshine to replace the real thing, eh? Sebel? Thank you, Mr. Marshall. Oh, I'll share, Sebel. No, you won't either. Now, John, this... Ah! What's the matter? Sebel, what nonsense. Oh, but it did. Oh, but I'm sure of it. Now, don't get excited. Here, let me reach under. Sebel, I... I joke there is. There is something under there. Oh, huh. And here's your spook, the cat. The cat? I'm silly, Avilee. Oh, Sebel, six o'clock. Our bus. Yeah, I'm goodfully sorry, but we must run. Of course, only come again soon, Sebel. Oh, it was ever so nice of you, Mrs. Marshall. Mr. Marshall. Come, John. Here, now, take an umbrella. Thanks, Dad. Good night, Mary. Good night. Good night. Good night. Philip, I believe John's really smitten. I dare say she's a pretty little thing. Oh, but hardly a thought in her head. I should hate to see him throw himself away like that. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't I, what? You weren't listening. Oh, I'm sorry. Philip, you look positively done in. Has anything happened? Of course not. Don't try to put me off. You've got something on your mind. Well, it's a matter of fact. Oh, come on, now, no secrets between us. All right, Mary, no secrets. How would it be if we packed up and went off with John? What do you mean? I mean to leave London, to leave England, go off with John to Canada. Canada? Might be fun, rather. The more I think of the idea, the more I like it. But you haven't been happy here, have you? Well, it... I thought when we had the house done over that you'd forget. It's no use, is it? You mustn't blame yourself, Mary. I'd be happy anywhere with you. Thank you, darling. Do you want to know something? Nothing would please me more than to leave this house. We'd be much better off any place else in the world. You mean that? Let's go with John. It's a wonderful idea. I'm so happy I could dance. Now, look here, my girl. You're dancing off to bed. You've had a long, hard day. But I want to clear things up. I'll clear everything up. There's only these few glasses, and I run along with you. Pleasant dreams. I'll dream of our Canada. You won't be long down there. Don't wait for me. I've got a few things to do. Good night, dear. Goodbye, Mr. Marshall. I don't know what the firm will do without you. Well, it's very nice of you to stand, and you've all been so wonderfully kind with the walking stick and the inscription. Mr. Fraser himself composed it. You're sailing tomorrow, sir? Yes, I can hardly believe it. Well, I expect you're eager to get away, especially now. How do you mean, especially now? I mean, with all that's been going on next door to you, I read in the papers about your neighbor disappearing. Oh, Simmons, of course, is not the first time that he's dropped out of sight. Been gone a week now, though. My wife's cousin lives in the next street. You know, the police have been there. Who saw Gilbert Summer's come? Who saw him go? Who saw him last? I expect they've been seeing you, too. The police? No, no, not yet. That's odd. And you, his next-door neighbor? You'll say goodbye to Merid you for me, won't you? I'm so sorry to not see you. Oh, the lad's on an errand. He'll be heartbroken, but I'll tell him, sir. Thank you. Goodbye. And good luck to all your family. Won't you come in? I just dropped in to say goodbye, Mrs. Simmons, and to thank you for giving our cat a home. But I've always loved animals, and now that I'm alone so much... Have you had any news of Gilbert? Not a word. Oh, I suppose this latest disappearance is the talk of every gossip in the neighborhood. Well, you know, when you get the police hanging about, it does set a lot of tongues wagging. I wish there was something I could do. You've always been so very kind, but there's nothing anybody can do. Sometimes when Gilbert goes away like this, I almost wish he wouldn't come back. I'd go and stay with my sister and her children in Devon, but it's only a dream. He always does come back. I can't tell you how sorry I am, Mrs. Simmons, and I think we know each other well enough for me to say, but I hope that someday soon, you'll be able to go back to Devon. Five more minutes till we sail. I can't believe that my heart's thumping so. Oh, where did John go? John's below in the person's office, taking care of the tickets. Mary, Mary, you're sure you won't regret this. Regret it? Oh, darling, we're going to be terribly happy in Canada. You and I and John. I feel that too. Listen, isn't that for you? Mr. Marshall. Oh, Stuart. I'm Mr. Marshall. Oh, there's a gentleman here to see you, Mr. Marshall. Who is he? What's his name? I'm sorry, sir. Mr. Marshall, it's me. Oh, Mary, too. Mr. Marshall, I didn't want you to sail, sir, without saying goodbye. Mary, this is my fellow worker, Mary, too. I'm very glad to know you. I brought you a present, Mr. Marshall. A present? It's a solvent remedy from Alde Mayor. Sea sickness, Mr. Marshall. I bought it with my own money. That was very thoughtful of you, Mary, too. Wasn't it, Mary? Indeed it was. Well, take good care of it. And I wish you the best of luck and health, Mr. Marshall.  And, um, I'm very much beholden to you. And, um, Mother says how she hopes I'll grow to be as good a man as you are. Well, I don't know about being good, Mary, too, but if you're half as happy as I am. Well, I'd best be going, sir. Mary, do you come here and I'll look at me. Would you promise me that you'll be a good boy always? And here's a present for you. Oh, thank you, sir. And, Mom, goodbye. Goodbye, Mary, dear. Hmm. Oh, here you are. Oh, the ticket's all right, son. We're all straightened out. But the baggage, I never saw so many bags. They're all in your state room. Uh-huh. And my pull-overs in one of them, and I don't know which. I'll help you find it, Larry. Come along. Coming, Philip? I think I'll step down to the lounge and have a drink. Yes, sir? What's yours, sir? Scotch and soda. Scotch and soda, yes, sir. Well, well, hello there, Marshal. Inspector Huxley. Yes. Turn up everywhere, don't you? Yes, it does seem so. Are you sailing or seeing somebody off? Sailing. Good. Marvelous country, Canada. I came down to see an old friend off, name of Pennyfeather. Hope you'll meet him. I daresay he'll see to that. What do you mean? Oh, you think he's one of our men? Of course I do. Oh, nonsense, your wife's death was an accident. The case is closed. Well, goodbye, and good luck. Oh, by the way, you seen the afternoon paper? No. That missing neighbor of yours, Gilbert Simmons. What about Simmons? He's turned up at last. You don't say so. Yes. Let's see now what page is it. Oh, here we are. See, a man's body found. A body identified as Gilbert Simmons of 28 La Burnham Terrace was taken last night from the muddy waters of a canal. While first indications pointed to suicide, police believe Simmons may have been murdered. Dear me, they shot at Simmons? Oh, quite. It's him all right. Oh, ghastly. Must have fallen in the canal when he was tight. No, he was thrown in when he was dead. You mean to tell me he was murdered? In cold blood. Poisoned. How shocking. You know who did it? What? You know who did it? Oh, yes, yes. Who? His wife. No. Oh, yes. Perfectly clear case. She had a motive, you know. He was a first-class rotter. He used to knock her about. She admits it. And besides, the stuff they found in his stomach was identical with some sleeping drug that she had in the house. Anodyne. But that's absurd. That woman couldn't have dragged the body to the canal. Why not? It's only a few feet to the end of the garden. She wouldn't have had the strength. Oh, my dear chap. When it's a matter of finding strength or swinging on the gallows. Oh, it won't come to that. No jury would convict her. They all convict her without even getting out of the box. Do you realize she hasn't any alibi while she was in the house the whole time? Oh, I say I didn't mean to upset you. I didn't dream that she's innocent. Oh, really? Have you any proof? No. But you can't live next door to a person for eight years without knowing something about them. Oh, my dear Marshal. When it comes to knowing what's in other people's hearts. Oh, there's my man now. Oh, Pennyfeather, coming. Well, goodbye, old chap. Now, don't let it worry you. It's no affair of yours, you know. Bon voyage. Your whiskey, sir. There goes the ship, Inspector. And I must say, begging you pardon, I don't understand your methods. What methods? Philip Marshall kills a man in cold blood and we let him sail away. Just like that. Well, Sergeant, what else could I do? If Marshall killed Simmons, it must have been because he also killed his wife. He was afraid Simmons would testify. Of course. That's what we hope for. Yes, but with Simmons dead, we haven't a chance to prove a thing. So he gets clean out of our hands. He never was in our hands. The other way around, if anything. There's only one thing that'll bring him to heel, and that's his own sense of decency. Decency? A murderer? Philip Marshall is not a killer, not by nature. He's a man just the same as you and I. Huh. That's the reason I gave him that cooked up story about Mrs. Simmons. He believed every word. He thinks we really believe she killed her husband. I felt sure he wouldn't let an innocent woman suffer for a thing he did himself, but... Ah, but it looks as though I was wrong, doesn't it? I would have made a bet that you were wrong all the time. Sergeant. You still want to bet? Look, it's him. It's Marshall.  Thank you, Sergeant. Shall I grab him? No. He's getting away. No, no, he isn't. He thinks he's done a pretty big thing. Let's leave him alone. He'll come to us when he's ready. Just keep an eye on him in the meantime. Hey, sir. What? What did you say? Take you somewhere? Uh, take me somewhere. Oh, yes. Where to, Governor? Scotland Yard. All deserved applause for our stars who have made the suspect so exciting an experience. Charles Lawton, Heller Reigns, and Rosalind Even. You know, Rosalind, you were so convincing that if Charles hadn't murdered you, I think I'd have stepped in and done it myself. Thank you, Tom. Although it's a sort of doubtful compliment. Actually, Rosalind is a very sweet and sympathetic lady, Tommy. Oh, I'm sure of that. Oh, incidentally, Charles, I hear you lost weight making the suspect. You're here. Wouldn't it be better if you said, I see you've lost weight? Well, let's leave it the way it was. Actually, I did it with a strenuous party motion. And Heller put on several pounds. How do you count for that? Well, you know women that are always contradictory. How'd you do, Rosalind? Gain or lose? Oh, I held my own. Actually, it was a very great experience making that picture, wasn't it, Heller? Uh-huh. You know, as manager of a tobacco shop during the picture, Charles could help himself to all the cigarettes he wanted. Hmm. Too bad it wasn't a drug or grocery store. Then you could have helped yourself to luxe toilet soap. You certainly slipped that in fast, Tommy. Oh, that wouldn't have been necessary, Tommy. We have our own supply of luxe toilet soap, both Rosalind and I. And use it regularly on an ad. Proving you're wise as well as charming. And the best way I know of saying thank you is to tell you what we've got for next week, which is something rather special. It's the unusual and gripping universal screen hit only yesterday. And we're starring Ida Lapino and Robert Young. This is the story of a man, a man on the brink of ruin who remembers a girl he once loved long ago, a girl who has carried the torch for him through many bitter years of separation. And with that memory, his hand has stayed from suicide and his life rededicated to a new goal and an old love. Sounds like a fine play, Tommy. Indeed it does. I wouldn't want to miss it. Good night. Good night. Good night. And thanks to all of you. Our sponsors, the makers of luxe toilet soap, join me in inviting you to be with us again next Monday night when the Luxe Radio Theatre presents Ida Lupino and Robert Young in Only Yesterday. This is Thomas Mitchell saying good night from Hollywood. Charles Lawton and Ella Reigns appeared through the cooperation of Universal Pictures, producers of Walter Wanger's Salome, where she danced. Thomas Mitchell appeared through the courtesy of 20th Century Fox, who are celebrating their 30th anniversary. He can soon be seen in Captain Eddie. Heard in tonight's play were Dennis Green as Gilbert Simmons, Lester Matthews as Huxley, and Trudemarsen, Norman Field, Anthony Ellis, Eric Snowden, Tommy Cook, Alec Harford, Charles Seal, Claire Verdera, Gloria Gordon, and Tom Collins. Our music was directed by Louis Silvers. This program is broadcast to our Fighting Forces overseas through cooperation with the Armed Forces Radio Service. And this is your announcer, John M. Kennedy, reminding you to tune in again next Monday night to hear Only Yesterday with Ida Lupino and Robert Young. It's spry for cakes, spry for pies, spry for all you bake and fry. Yes, spry is top notch for baking and frying, but have you tried spry in white sauces for enriching vegetables? Save butter for table only. Use spry for all your cooking. Remember, there's a word for pure all vegetable shortening at its creamy best, spry S-B-R-Y. Be sure to listen in next Monday night to the Lux Radio Theatre presents...


This is, uh, think te kawai's politics for the people show. I'm Stephanie Stoll Dalton, your host. We have a weekly show, and our topic for this weekly discussion show is about a new term or an establishing term. Nothing's new, right? Anyway, the term is these, um, is our hyper hyper hyper war. And I would like to note to mention that we have a panel here to discuss, uh, what, what it is as we have learned it and the actual practice of it that has been concentrally agreed as a hybrid war. So these panel members who will be discussing the topic today are J. Fideau and Tim Apichella and, um, and, and I'm your moderator. So let's get started with this. We've been talking about hybrid war and, and been thinking that we really don't know what it is, but, um, we actually have seen a lot of it and it is described by Hoffman, a marine who, um, has served long and also taught at the U. S. War colleges, um, and also has done quite a bit of study of hybrid war. Mr. Hoffman writes that hybrid war incorporates a range of different modes of warfare, including conventional capabilities, irregular tactics and formations, terrorist acts, including indiscriminate violence and coercion and criminal disorder. The variety, um, of actions could be the work of the same, same, um, actor. So we're familiar with terms like asymmetric warfare, guerrilla warfare, unconventional and cyber warfare as ways of conflict. Now we're learning more about a high, hyper war, hybrid war. So J, can you talk to us a little bit about what you've learned from the current conflict about what hyper war is coming to be understood by Americans to be and what, what do you see it as given the definition and what you have learned? Well, let me just tell you when I, when I saw you right up on the show, I went and looked to see if there was a term of art, hybrid war. And I found there is a lot written about hybrid war. This is not something that popped up yesterday, but it has been evolving. Hybrid war is getting more hybrid. Every time you look, it's more hybrid. Which means what? Getting hybrid means what? Getting high on hybrid. So it's um, it's actually, there's a number of definitions that are related and I want to go through some of them that I've found. So first of all, it's many things. And it's, it's an interplay, a fusion of conventional war and that would be kinetic war where you shoot bullets and artillery and all that and unconventional instruments of power and tools of subversion. And these, these, these elements, these tools are blended in a synchronized comprehensive manner to exploit the vulnerabilities of an antagonist or to achieve synergistic results. And I don't think, you know, we really been watching, I haven't been watching this. So you can have a hybrid war that includes things that we didn't see as war before. And that is spreading false information, doing cyberterrorism, attacking computer system um, beyond traditional military action. And so this is really the incorporation of technology beyond kinetic war into war. It's social engineering. It's all kinds of emerging technologies, including artificial intelligence and autonomous systems like robots. And robots are not only robots that attack, robots do other things. They, they gain information. So we have to see it as, you know, one kind of technology, which is modular, connected with other kinds of technology. And in some cases, you don't even see this as war. It's merely pursuing political objectives through carefully designed operations, moving cautiously without kinetic war at all. And in that case, it's called gray zone war. There's another one called fifth generation war, which I, this may be my favorite, fifth generation war is warfare that is conducted primarily through non-kinetic military action, social engineering, misinformation, cyber attack, and various other technologies. So what you, what you have is the kind of a migration from kinetic war to non-kinetic war. So all these things existed before, but it's a question of priorities. It's a question of interaction and coordination. And it's a question of the mix, you know, what, how much of this kind and how much of that kind becomes particularly relevant now in the case of Ukraine and in the case of Russia versus Eastern Europe and Western Europe and the United States. And for that matter, you know, China is also doing this kind of thing. It's fifth generation, though. It's not kinetic right now. And indeed, you could make the case that when this process, this evolution is done, there won't be kinetic war, because the aggressor will have what he wants without any kinetic action. He'll find other high-tech ways to subvert and subjugate, you know, the country he is attacking. So when Zelensky says we're having a hybrid war, he is dead right about that. And we have to watch it. We have to watch what's going on. And Western Europe should watch what's going on, because all of these things that I mentioned are happening in a coordinated fashion by Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin is a clever guy. He understands hybrid war. He is conducting hybrid war. And we have to understand it too. Well, having him as knowledgeable and you're remarking that Putin is as knowledgeable as Zelensky, who is the contributor of this term or bringing this term to the surface here at this time. One of the features of hybrid war is that the activity occurs below the traditional threshold of war. So your kinetic, non-kinetic point is very apt. So, Tim, given what we know now about hybrid war, why is it rising? Why is it emerging? What's in it for anybody? Well, what's in it is, obviously, entrees in two more effective ways of confusing the enemy and disabling the enemy. I was trying to get my arms around the term hybrid war. And I love the term, you know, that J.U.'s kinetic war. And then I thought, okay, what's an example of something that's between kinetic war and cyber warfare? And I thought of the time, I think it was the United States, conducted, it was on the Iranian tubes for enrichment in Iran, where we broke into their computers and spun those enrichment tubes so fast that they blew up. They literally just spun themselves and fried out. And that was something we were able to do to stop Iran and its enrichment program. And we did it continents away. And so, I think that was an example, in my mind, of hybrid warfare. So it's an effective thing. And then, you know, if part of it also is disinformation, I'll say that disinformation is a semantic term because we used to call it propaganda. And certainly, in yesterday's show, we talked about many examples of how Putin is using propaganda to try to explain the war away, not only to the world, but certainly to his own people. And what's a big aspect of propaganda is the big lie that's repeated over and over and over again until people get worn down and start to accept it. And that is a key element of propaganda. But now we call it disinformation. That's such an interesting point, Tim, about having seen it already through the big lie and the big lie before that. So... Well, we've been watching it for five years with the previous president. Exactly. We should be pretty attuned to it by now. That was when my question was the duration of the cyber war and to address the fact that it's ongoing and it's got a history here with us. So one of the other features, Jay, of characteristics of hybrid war is that there's a role for civilians that is non-traditional. And it has some ways of influencing... Well, why don't you tell me what have you seen that involves civilians in non-traditional worlds during conflict? Well, that's an interesting point. And that is if you had a chart with an XY axis, you'd say that as civilians have become more active in the non-kinetic parts of war, hybrid war, then the hybrid war has become more interested in injuring and killing civilians. So it becomes a more community-minded... I hate to use that term, but a community-minded thing. Now it's not just the soldiers on the front lines. There's lots and lots of civilians who are either with government or volunteers, as in the case of Ukraine, who participate. And it's like...  All options on the table. All methodologies are included.  I got a new way to disrupt their societies and fragment their political will. I got a new way that it's on the table. It's all on the table. Civilian, military, kinetic, non-kinetic. And that's the way the world has gone. And to your point, Tim, about the last five years, if you take these definitions, this fifth-generation definition or the definition of grey zone war, we have been at war in this country. You can have a domestic war where one side forms up, develops these strategies, uses these techniques, and fights with the outside in a way to achieve what amounts to be a national objective. It's like a civil war that's being conducted by grey zone or hybrid war. And it could turn into a shooting war. It did on January 6th to a certain extent. So the other thing I'd like to throw into the mix here is that if you say the definition of war has changed, and we ought to examine exactly how it has changed in connection with Putin and Ukraine, and if you say that examples of this kind of war pop up by way of non-kinetic elements, and if you say that everybody's looking around for indications that we either are or soon will be in a third world war, we may, as far as kinetic war is concerned, we may be already in a third world war. It's just not being conducted kinetically all around. And to go one last point before I get off my stump here is that if you talk about hybrid war and you talk about kinetic, all of a sudden there are other options on the table there too, you know, what you threw on the table because you want it all, you want everything. And so that would be these hypersonic missiles. It would be tactical nuclear weapons. It would be bio warfare or chemical warfare, all these things. And that's, I say that's kinetic war, but they're on the table. So the concept is not only that we include non-kinetic things, but the kinetic things in our toolkit are much greater. And, you know, although, you know, the Western Europe says, oh, a lot of that is, you know, violation of human rights and war crimes and all that, somehow Mr. Putin, by putting it on the table, by threatening it, or saying that others are threatening it to him, which is a lie, is expanding the possibilities of what goes on the table here in the 21st century, expanding the possibility that notwithstanding our earlier definitions of kinetic war and our Geneva Conventions and our anti-proliferation agreements and what have you, right now it seems like it's all possible. And it's not just a shooting war with bullets or artillery or airplanes and bombs. It's all kinds of new tech and it's weapons of, sorry, weapons of mass destruction. That's on the table. It certainly looks like it is, Jay. That's a good point. Tam, let's get back to the people part of it now. So how does, how does this hybrid war experience we're witnessing minute by minute, practically, because of our media coverage? How does it affect people in the war zone, Tam? That question which just flashed in front of my mind was, unfortunately, one of the positive outcomes of war. And I hate to say it, but through every war, the advances in medicine, particularly trauma medicine, leaps and quantum leaps and improves on how to keep humans alive when they've been horribly mangled and maimed. That's what I'm thinking about is we have more efficient ways of either killing people or not killing them, but creating a greater burden on the army that supports them and taking them out, but not killing them, but wounding them. And that takes three people instead of one person to take care of a casualty. And the diabolical technology that warfare now employs is mind-boggling to me, but that's also transfers to the civilian population, which makes us even more hideous, is that these non-combatants are the recipients of high technology weapons that may not kill them, but it will completely mutilate and maim and keep them alive to be a further burden to the society that has to take care of them. And that's the part that flashed in front of my mind when you just asked me that question. I don't know what more to say other than that. Well, I was thinking also about the call to arms that was given to the Ukrainians, the minute they were smart enough to get out of town. I mean, they left the minute the Russian started attacking. So everybody left. Well, women and children, yes, but not males. Yeah, and then they said everybody goes except men. What is it, 16 to 60 or something? So what about that? What about that? I think we saw this, I hate to say this, we saw this in World War II after Okinawa was taken and there was going to be a major invasion of the island of Japan. We saw everyone in Japan was going to ready themselves for that invasion, be it women, men, grandparents, everyone was being trained to arm themselves. And very quickly, every time the naval forces would shift off the shores of Japan, their forces shifted. And so that's why estimations of casualties was going to be somewhere in the half million range for casualties of US soldiers, because everyone was planning to mobilize and defend their island nation. What we see in Ukraine is exactly that kind of philosophy is rather than run and surrender. They have they have really bucked up to it and say we are going to defend the homeland here and that's called Ukraine. And so it's it's it's admirable to see, but then your citizens become combatants. And that becomes problematic because then is it acceptable for civilian targets to be targeted? That's really interesting connection to World War II and that circumstance. Yes. And the hand-to-hand combat that was faced at that time and the engaged. We're going to be faced. The civilians didn't happen because Vienna bomb ended the end of the war. Yeah, deterred that. Well, yes. OK, so it's so it's been with us. So we're not this is not new hybrid war. It's not brand new, but it and there are examples along the way. It's evolving. This is an example. It's evolving and emerging. Yeah. And if you start looking at the chess board on this, talk about the civilian casualties. Putin may not have the sharpest army in the in the drawer.  But his his deal is, and this is a new element, blow up the country, blow every building, every residence, you know, into rubble and do that first.  So the people who were wounded and dying, you know, become a burden on everyone else. And because and so it becomes very tragic.  And that's what he's doing. And so you have to say this kind of strategy is part of hybrid war. It's strategy against the people. It's a strategy to put burdens on the the the country that's being attacked. Economic burdens and morale burdens. And so it's one of those elements on the table because everything is on the table. So can I jump in on that point? And, you know, well, Tim, yes, you have another point. Yes, I would. Yeah, I do because you know, when we talk about the hybrid war now involving, you know, citizens, non-combatants, maybe it's time for the Geneva Convention to be updated and agreed upon internationally. I know it sounds bizarre to have a brutality of war and that you would yet you have rules to adhere to. It's just an oxymoron for me. But you know, if you think about aerial bombing that took place in World War Two, but not World War One, aerial bombing was indiscriminate bombing on civilian targets, the Battle of Britain, the bombing of Germany. So here we are now in 2022 with new weapons, hypersonic missiles, the technology, yet they're being directed against the civilian population. So I'm really thinking that that's antiquated warfare. And maybe it's time for the Geneva Convention to be updated and agreed to and stop this kind of technology use against the civilian population. Well, let me add to that. Then they embed themselves in civilian targets. You like hospitals and, you know, the Hezbollah would do this and, you know, they would embed themselves with these civilian targets. We are not in a place where another Geneva Convention can happen. I agree. I agree with that. The thing about World War One and World War Two was a terrible things that happened. And then it was over. And when it was over, there was a winner. And the winners would get together and make things like the Geneva Convention lessons from the war. But, you know, we have seen that war crimes are no longer war crimes in the minds of some people. We have seen the United Nations is no consequence because you veto everything. Over and over, we have seen the international institutions that would stand in the way of of tribes against humanity and violations of any rules of decorum and humanity are thrown aside. So if you asked Vladimir Putin, I'll go on record about this. You asked Vladimir Putin, hey, how about a new Geneva Convention? He would say get lost. He would never, ever, ever, ever agree to that. And that's one of the things on his table, because he is being difficult. He is doubling down on outrageous things, just like Donald Trump did. They really run out of the same playbook. Doubling down on outrageous things is one of the weapons.  Never.  How can you have diplomacy with a psychopath? You can't do it. And being being unpredictable, being impossible to deal with. Those are also weapons like misinformation and disinformation that are on the table. It's sort of like reverse diplomacy. Exactly, Jay. Very interesting point. And what a challenge going forward for everyone. My big question now for maybe this will get us to the end of the program, but I want to ask Tim to start talking about what are the defenses in the circumstances of a hybrid war? Now Jay's laid out the table. Everything's on it. So Tim, take a crack at what are the defenses? Where do we go? Boy, another question that comes flashing to my brain. And that is from a communication standpoint. It's important that every citizen recognize when propaganda is taking place, that they learn that the very five or six points of how to recognize propaganda and how to guard yourself against it. And I hate to say it, but the human species is flawed.  How smart are you? So we need to see how I call it, I call it verbal hypnosis.  So how can we guard ourselves against these sort of things versus on the information front? Know that someone is setting the stage for a conflict, a war, an invasion and know that they need you to cooperate with them because you're going to support them. So what do they have to do?  So that's the first step is recognize when these things are happening before they happen. So this is an influence game and we have to get better at using what we know about influencing people. Every citizen needs to recognize that when it's happening to guard against it.  Gaslighting. That part of it, that is a big part of propaganda is gaslighting. It has to get added to the list of bandwagon and all of those things we memorized in school but didn't take seriously. Jay, what other comments? I really have some point I want to make here and that is this. If you have hybrid war or fifth generation war or gray zone war, the military and kinetic war is only one element. Not to say that that may be a very important element, but it is clearly only one element and it's like a very complicated ballgame where anything goes. So if you look at the way government, at least our government in Washington is run, there are two things to keep in mind. Number one is the government is locked up. It's ineffectual. Congress couldn't find its shoelaces. The Supreme Court, I wouldn't trust them for a nickel. Then you have the executive, but the executive is hampered and the executive has to be careful about the political disparities in the country and the lack of political will. That's one element. The other element is that in kinetic war, which used to be the only kind of war, you relied on the military and so we have a Department of Defense, which is organized and pointed at kinetic war. Now, not to say that there are non-kinetic things in the Department of Defense, you know, there's the space command, which was a Trump idea, I really wonder about that, and other non-kinetic things in the Department of Defense. And indeed, the military has become more adept at foreign relations than it was, say, after World War II. But the bottom line is the Department of Defense and kinetic war as the overarching agency for war. You know the answer. It's not complete. It's overtaken by events. It's old news. We have to update our structure in dealing with hybrid war to be more than just the Department of Defense. And that means, you know, I don't know, another arm of government, another approach by the executive, and certainly it means that Congress has got to get its act together and realize that kinetic war is overtaken by events. We need to coordinate all of these things where we are going to lose the war, which is happening. The other thing I'd like to throw at both of you guys is this. And it goes to your question about what do we do now? My short answer would be we recognize the problem and we get together as a country to develop a collaborative solution, you know, way beyond just the Department of Defense. But there's another thing too, and that is how do you... This is your question earlier. And Tim answered it to some degree, but I think it's still in the air. The question is how do you deal with this? What do you do? And I guess my short-term answer, and I'd like to know what Tim's answer is, is, well, you understand it. The first thing, you understand it. Everybody will listen to this show about hybrid war and understand it. And the second thing is you try to coordinate various elements of hybrid war under a leadership system that coordinates them all. Right now, we don't have that really. And so I don't know how you win a hybrid war unless you match the hybrid war the other guy's doing. And in that case, it may not be a clear winner. Tim, what do you think about that? Well, let's go around. We're out of time. So what we're going to do is have one more closing comment from each of you.  Well, I'm going to go back to the last question then. Because again, I think war takes place when we fail to proactively see the forces of war coming to the table. And that means be it through political influence by money or oligarchs or rich industries, corporations that have a vested interest to engage in war because it's a profit model.  And so it's really a slow buildup to how do we get to a war in the first place? War just doesn't happen.  But what was the underlying reason to have that failure of politics? And in my mind, that's being on your guard for looking for the influences of influence, money in politics, propaganda through certain news agencies. And I won't mention the three letter one that's on my mind.  But that's where you start. That's how you stop war, is proactively look at the causes of what's causing the irritation and friction between nations. Okay, thank you. Jay, let's have a last comment here before closed. Yeah, don't forget sanctions. Sanctions is one of those things on the table. Economic sanctions, you mentioned it. And I think the question is, the Kennedy School at Harvard talks about smart power and soft power and all that. And that's really foreign policy done kindly. And it has gotten the United States a lot of friends around the world. But it's not enough. It's part of the mix as sanctions are part of the mix. And so if you ask me, you know, what the direction of the Kennedy School and the smart power, soft power should be at this point, it's the coordination of these various things. You can't get there using only, that's the point. You can't get there using only one of them. You've got to coordinate them and you've got to be really, really smart. And they've got to be hybrid. Hybrid war calls for hybrid defense. Hybrid solutions to hybrid warfare. On that note, we're closing our show for today on a discussion of hybrid war as we're witnessing it at this very time. And I'm Stephanie Stoll Dalton, your host for this show. And thank you to our panelists, Jay Fiedel and Tim Appichella. We'll be here again next week at 11 o'clock. So Aloha and Mahalo for your viewership.


Ladies and gentlemen, first of all we'd like to bring in, we're delighted to have him in San Diego, the governor of the state of California. This city was the president's last stop before his 1980 overwhelming landslide victory. Let's hear from San Diego give a warm welcome to the once and future president of the United States, Ronald Reagan. Thank you very much, thank you, well thank you Senator Pete Wilson, Governor Duke Magin and it feels good to be back in California and with you here in San Diego. I've come to San Diego asking for your support in every campaign that I've ever been in and I'm here today to ask this last one time, well I was going to ask if I could count on you and you've already answered that and thank you very much. I see something here I've been noticing all over the country. The large number of young people, I know you're putting yourself squarely on the side of a strong and a growing America. People of every age, race and background are flocking to a banner of opportunity and nowhere is that more clear than in California. Disadvantaged Americans are waking up to the failure of bureaucratic programs to bring them the economic opportunity they need to make real progress. I'm especially pleased that Hispanic Americans who are so important to our California heritage are joining us in increasing numbers. And here in California we also see our coalition bolstered by Asian Americans, many of them recent immigrants who have come here like our own forefathers and mothers for freedom and to improve their well-being. Earlier this year there was a candidate who claimed to be building a rainbow coalition. Well we're building an American coalition and that says it all. I want to take this opportunity to thank you for sending to the Congress three representatives who've been in the forefront of the battle for responsible government and a strong America. Congressman Bill Lowry, Duncan Howard, Hunter, and Ron Packard. I've got a favor to ask. On election day make sure that you send them back to Washington because if you're going to send me back there I don't know what I'd do without them. You and all these fine candidates are part of a new spirit that's spreading across America. You know I assume that maybe some of you saw the debate last night. Well the format for the debate is sometimes frustrating. When the other fellows making a lot of misstatements you don't have time always to challenge them. So last night I told the people, for example, that Mr. Mondale had voted to kill the F-14 fighter plane and he said he only voted to delay production. Well that was one I didn't get to respond to. I'll do it here. On September 29, 1971, he voted on an amendment by Senator Proxmire to kill the F-14. That was no vote to delay, that was a vote to delete. Unfortunately he failed. The planes that did that job that the Senator was referring to, they were F-14s. You know as election day nears the American people are getting the full flavor of the very clear choice facing them. Is there an echo out here? It's a choice between two fundamentally different ways of governing and two distinct ways of looking at America. My opponent, Mr. Mondale, offers a government of pessimism, fear, and limits compared to ours of hope, confidence, and growth. He sees government as an end in itself and we see government as something belonging to the people and only a junior partner in our lives. They see people as merely as members of groups, special interests to be coddled and catered to. We look at them as individuals to be fulfilled through their own freedom and creativity. My opponent and his allies live in the past, celebrating the old and failed policies of an era that has passed them by as if history had skipped over those Carter Mondale years. On the other hand, millions of Americans join us in boldly charting a new course for the future. From the beginning, their campaign has lived on promises. Indeed, Mr. Mondale has boasted that America is nothing if it isn't promises. Well, the American people don't want promises and they don't want to pay for his promises. They want, they want promise. They want opportunity and workable answers. And that's why we're here to talk about the record, the record of the administration in which Mr. Mondale carried a full partnership. Mr. Carter himself said, there wasn't a single decision I made during four years in the White House that Fritz Mondale wasn't involved in. In those years, they took the strongest economy in the world and pushed it to the brink of collapse. They created a calamity of such proportions that we're still suffering the consequences of those economic time bombs. What they left in our doorstep in January 1981 was a snarling economic wolf with sharp teeth. The suffering of America, the deep and painful recession, and the outrageous and frightening inflation, these things didn't start by spontaneous combustion. They came about through the concerted mismanagement of which Mr. Mondale was a part and his liberal friends who controlled the Congress. They gave us five, count them, five different anti-inflation plans and managed to give us the worst four-year record of inflation in nearly 40 years. While it took them five economic plans to nearly triple inflation, it's taken us only one to cut it by about two-thirds. Senior citizens, senior citizens were driven into panic by higher rents, exorbitant fuel costs, dramatically increasing food prices, and federal health care costs, which went up of massive 87 percent. And they called that fairness. They punished the poor and the young who struggled as prices of necessities shot up faster than others. Millions of Americans led a life of daily economic terror fueled by these unrelenting costs, and they called that compassion. Well, let's look at interest rates. My opponent has referred to something he calls real interest rates. Well, people don't pay interest rates based on some academic smoke screen or foggy economic theory. What they know is that when Jerry Ford left office, the prime interest rate was six and a quarter percent. When Mr. Mondale left office, it was 21.5 percent the highest in 120 years. Average monthly mortgage payments more than doubled. Young people couldn't buy homes. Car loans were hard to get and expensive. The automobile and home building industries were brought to their knees. It's little wonder that the American people yearned for leadership in 1980. And after all this economic punishment, our opponents blamed you because you lived too well. And they told you they told you you had to sacrifice more and that we were now in an age of limits. Well, I found out that it's not so much that Mr. Mondale has a poor memory of his ruinous past. He's just got a darn good forgettory. And now he says, I'm ready to be president. Well, forgive me, but. I thought he was campaigning at someplace else. Forgive me, but I believe he's more ready to be our problem than our president. As Senator Wilson was telling you, on defense, too, he has a record of weakness, confusion, and failure. Before the invasion of Czechoslovakia, he announced that the days of Soviet suppression by force were over. And after the invasion of Afghanistan, he said just what you were told that he was baffled. There's so much that seems to baffle him. He was confused about freeing the rightness of freeing our students on the island of Grenada. Senator John Glenn said that my opponent would, quote, cut our defense establishment beyond all reality, cut the B-1, the Nimitz carrier, the Trident, the cruise missile, the foreign troops, would cut the M-1 tank funds for the volunteer army, kill the shuttle, oppose procurement of the F-14, the Harrier, and the AWACS. Now, I don't know if he'd outlaw slingshots, but he certainly would jeopardize our national security. And we're not going to let him do it. And you know, after capital were in California, I'd agree to 40. You know, something else that our opponents would like to forget is a gimmick from the 1976 campaign where they added the unemployment and the inflation rates together in the total they called it the misery index. And at the end of 1976, it was 12.6. And they declared that the incumbent had no right to seek reelection with that kind of a misery index. Well, four years later, we were in the 1980 campaign, and they never mentioned the misery index. And I don't think Mr. Mondale will mention it in this campaign, because by 1980, and when he left the vice presidency, it was over 20. And it's now down around 11. My opponent has done a very good job of trying to slip, slide, and duck away from this record. But we know now that those disastrous consequences didn't come about by accident. They came through the implementation of the very policies of out of control spending, unfair taxation, and worship of big government that my opponent still supports. His philosophy could be summed up in four sentences. If it's income, tax it. If it's revenue, spend it. If it's a budget, break it. And if it's a promise, make it. All this year, Mr. Mondale has lavished his campaign with promises that staggered even his Democratic opponents. Senator John Glenn was heard to say in frustration that Mr. Mondale, and I quote, has just promised everything to everybody with no thought of how it's going to be paid for. And Gary Hart said, Fritz, you cannot lead this country if you've promised everybody everything. But of course, there is a predictable answer by one who makes so many promises. The answer is higher taxes. And massive new tax increases are precisely what he proposes. A few weeks back, he called his new plan, Pay As You Go. But what it is, of course, is nothing but the old plan. You pay, and he goes. Those tax increases, those tax increases to pay for his promises add up to the equivalent of $1,890 per household. That's more than $150 per month. I call it the Mondale Mortgage. If Harry Truman had to apply a motto to this radical taxing scheme, and for the young people here who may not remember Harry Truman, he was the fellow that said about the desk that he sat at in the Oval Office, the buck stops here. I have a hunch that if he had to have a motto right now for this particular candidate that I've been talking about, he'd say, your buck never stops. But hold on. He's got more. A couple of weeks ago, he said he would like to repeal indexing. Now, this tax is even worse, because it would be a dagger at the heart of every low and middle income taxpayer in America. It would mean bone crushing new levies against those who can least afford them. Indexing was the reform that we passed to protect you from the cruelest of taxes. The hidden tax that, when government uses inflation to force you into higher tax brackets, just because you've gotten the cost of living pay raise. That's when your taxes go up. And under the Mondale Plan, here is what would happen to a family struggling on $10,000 per year. By 1989, they would be paying over 73% more in income taxes if indexing, which begins on this January 1st, is canceled. And then Mr. Mondale reversed himself and said he'd made a mistake. Well, that's something he seems to do quite a lot. But the truth is that several times between 1982 and now, he has expressly proposed the repeal of indexing. In politics, they call this a flip flop. In this case, you'll forgive me if I call it a fritz flop. Yesterday, he wanted to give you a $200 tax break to every family dependent. And today, he wants to raise taxes the equivalent of almost $2,000 a household. You know, for some time, over the last several weeks at least, he was talking about a new Reagan and an old Reagan. Now, that had nothing to do with my age. The old Reagan was the earlier one, the first one. The new Reagan is now. And when he said that, well, he inspired me to do a little of that old and new business. The old Mondale is on record as saying that reducing deficits could worsen a recession. The new Mondale thinks higher taxes lead to a healthy economy. The old Mondale publicly supported Jimmy Carter's wrong-headed grain embargo. And the new Mondale claims that he opposed it privately, very privately. The old Mondale sponsored National Bible Week. Well, older new, I'm with him on that one. The new Mondale, but this new Mondale says there's too much religion in politics. The old Mondale called the space shuttle a horrible waste, a space extravaganza. And he personally led the fight in the United States Senate to kill the shuttle program before it even started. And the new Mondale praises American technological achievement. But just when you were beginning to lose faith, you find that there is some constancy with him. The old Mondale increased your taxes, and the new Mondale will do it again.  And on one occasion, I was about to say to him very sternly, Mr. Mondale, you're taxing my patience. And then I caught myself. Why should I give him another idea? Well, from now until November 6, we're going to make sure the American people know about this choice on which their future depends. We have two roads to tomorrow. The road of fear and envy that he proposes. On his road, you frighten the elderly with false statements. You strive to divide Americans against each other, seeking to promote envy and promote greed. Franklin Roosevelt warned us the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Well, sadly and tragically, the only thing that my opponent has to offer is fear itself. And that's the difference between us. We see America's best days ahead of us. We see ourselves in a springtime of hope, ready to fire up our courage and determination to reach high and achieve all the best. We see a life where our children can enjoy, at last, prosperity without inflation. We see a life where they can enjoy the highest of creativity and go for the stars and not have their hopes and dreams crushed or taxed away by greedy governmentalists. In 1980, the American people declared their independence all over again. We realized that when we went from good government to big government, it was time to put our house back in order. Today, we've returned to a proper understanding of who the American people are. We're the people who crossed the plains, scaled the mountains, won the West. We're the people who came up with the inventions that lit the world and filled it with sound and laughter. We're the people who twice in this century have fought in Europe and stood for decency for all mankind. We're a people in short who don't need the supervision of government sophisticates to tell us what is right and good. And now, the American people are walking into tomorrow unashamed and unafraid. They're ready for this great new era of opportunity. And once again, I want to refer to these young people who are with us and these young people all over the country. I didn't get to finish last night what I was going to say. We ran out of time. What I had already said is that all across this country, in high schools, in schools, on college and can, university campuses, and among younger people who have finished education and started out into life, seen them all across this country. And believe me, to the rest of you or of those other generations, these young people today are very special. Yes, you are. And you know what? The responsibility, and this is what I was going to say last night, the responsibility of my generation and those generations between mine and yours, our responsibility is to see that you grow up in the same kind of country that we grew up in, a country of hope and opportunity. And our job is to hand you an America that is free in a country or a world that is at peace. And now, and I, and now, I know this may gall our opponents. But I think the people agree with this when I say, you ain't seen nothing yet. Thank you very much. God bless you all. Thank you.


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