Hello everybody, welcome to the Hyperledger Foundation health care special interest group Today we'll be going over as usual some industry news articles some interesting projects we'll be talking about as well and Yeah, I just want to make sure everybody listening in on YouTube is Trying to make sure everybody on YouTube knows that this is something that we can Continue and have discussions offline as well so if you found something interesting in the video, please leave a comment make sure you follow subscribe and Yeah, let's get started So before we get into the news articles, I just want to remind everybody about some interesting events happening Or have happened actually so the block health summit has happened or is happening now in Dubai So that's an interesting event with some blockchain health care companies sponsored by it patientory October 16th to the 18th in Berlin. There's a World Health Summit. It's also online So you can check that out as well. That's some interesting speakers from all over the world That are attending there. So please do check that out if you're Berlin October 24th through the 26th Boston is having their medtech conference as well And as a reminder, this agenda is publicly available. You can go in to the site and view all These links as well and previous meeting notes November 13th through the 16th in Las Vegas. The health event will be happening So that's always a big big splash event. All right. So getting into the industry news here today first is Google Cloud and Coinbase are actually forming a strategic partnership which I found very interesting because as you all know, you know Coinbase one of the largest exchanges for crypto and Google Cloud Obviously, everybody knows how large they are this sort of brings some You know, I guess Comfort in the web to folks who maybe not have believed in blockchain yet So this is very very interesting says here as part of the partnership Google Cloud is positioned to enable select customers Starting with those in the web through ecosystem to pay for its cloud services with via select crypto currencies Powered by Coinbase commerce which enables merchants globally to accept cryptocurrency payments in a decentralized way The new payments experience will benefit Google Cloud's customers and partners by increasing The optionality of payments for Google Cloud services. So we'll see how this unfolds and just also see if people Actually will use their crypto to be paying for these services on Google Cloud I think it's yeah Well, I don't know enough about this but um is Are the other partners with Coinbase like PayPal or do they use a different way of paying with crypto? Yeah, that's a good question. I think PayPal actually uses These block or something I think it could be rolling there, you know, it's own company but PayPal crypto Services on the on the spot searching here. I Think they have their own rails. I don't even think they partner with anybody I was curious who else part who else in the past as partner with Coinbase to do this or if this is like the first One since they've had so much turmoil, you know Right people is finally allowing users. Yeah, I don't know if they actually have any So people crypto partner Paxos. So they are part of the Paxos, which is a large financial services company Yeah, that's a good question I'm not gonna dig into that right now And yeah, it's a good question if anyone in the listening knows please leave a comment and by the way, that's a Erica beer bower she's my co-chair and Very knowledgeable in the space as well. So thanks for Being here with us today Erica I'm gonna jump into the next article I found and this was a pretty short article about Recommendations for marketers in the web 3 healthcare space so they discuss You know how to define web 3 and metaverse and understanding as possibilities for key healthcare constituents and then What does it actually mean for them and they effectively say it's the next version of the internet One that will take advantage of AI augmented reality virtual reality and increasingly connectivity Like 5g to create online environments that are more immersive Experimental and interactive than we than what we have today But then it goes on to specifically say how when you're You know communicating this to a different audience you have to really tailor that experience So if you're talking to a provider, you should really consider a provider's Interests and user experience really a payer or a patient and the same goes for You know pharmaceutical and biotech companies and digital therapeutics in web 3 So I'm not going to go into everything here, but you know the final message here for today's marketer is that As you begin as you begin to embark on this journey to the center of the metaverse consider the following Healthcare organizations and their marketing communications teams Mainly to engage audiences in these new digital environments Not too far into the future understanding how product placements work Inside this landscape and how to build trust and awareness under new sets of particles will be critical So organizations can put their toe in the water and take a phased approach and focus on preparedness and familiarization With broader trends that stand to impact care. So if you want to read more on this article to hear Did you have any thoughts on that one? Yeah, I'm curious what they mean by having different You know different different platforms or audiences for the provider or payer or patient just because we're trying to get into Transparency, so I would think that they would want more to be visible from each of these standpoints So I'm curious what they What that looks like, but I guess we'll see Yeah, and again like The marketing for web 3 and metaverse is still so pretty new and I'm sure things will change Month to month, you know year to year So interesting. Yeah, I think they'll have to keep things pretty separate until We can build some more transparency around like, you know pricing for patients and Access to data for patients on the provider side. So it'll yeah, it'll be interesting to see how siloed that is It's true Next up here from form egg stack Journal NFTs what this new kid on the block means for health care and These two authors discuss What a NFT could mean for health care and if it could upend the existing industry Talks about how individuals generate hundreds of megabytes of data each year from imaging records Health apps fitness trackers and beyond yet patients aren't involved or consulted when their information is used The most striking example comes from the story of Henrietta Lacks and our amazing healer cells, which we probably all have heard of so this goes on to talk about how NFTs can hold this ability for patients to own their digital health assets and Also provide some key considerations like the environmental impact of NFTs. I don't know if I really think that this article Captures the true potential for NFTs or the true understanding of NFTs, but I think it's a good explainer Article for a lot of people who are still learning about this for the first time. So yeah, I checked this article out talks about I know what NFTs are things like that Yeah, and we still haven't seen NFTs like being implemented on a large scale in production From any really major huge health system yet. So our health plan. So this is still Something that people are thinking about working on ways to address it with the mass public One last just thing here at the end What can healthcare brands do now as the interest in NFTs grows? So will opportunities it may be a while before NFTs make Sense for many brands, but understanding this new technology is the first step in preparing for a future where NFTs and the blockchain offer meaningful Or offer meaning and value to the healthcare sector so Yeah, so Kristen Ryan is executive vice president of US head US head of digital innovation and The author Liana Hooper is vice president of digital at GCI health. Yeah Any thoughts on this one? I feel like Healthcare again will be sort of the last adoption of it once it really is shown to be proven in other use cases. I just You know shown to be utilized more in other industries and then and then health girl sort of be because I mean the data is so different You know that it will be that it will represent compared with other industries. So Sure. I'm with you. I think we live away. I Think us you know Erica us being in health care It's kind of interesting because we know how long it takes for health care companies to adopt new technology in general So we see the long Term viability of this, but we also know that it's long term So it's kind of interesting because maybe people outside of health care might be super excited about this but maybe in over their heads on you know when this will actually happen, but I'm glad we can share a little perspective And if you anyone listening has any other thoughts happy to Read those in the comments below Next up is this New York Times article Which was really huge and it recently came out. Oh can't view it here, but let me try to open it In a different browser No, so I'm not able to open this article, but in any case What this exposed was that major insurance companies Including like United Health Group, Humana and others have been Taking advantage of Medicare Advantage plans. So this is a government funded health plan and it looks like many large insurers were sort of Charging the government for services activities products that maybe those patients didn't necessarily need Not going to go into the details here, but this is definitely going to be a huge story for a while I think and kind of shows the lack of transparency in the industry and Yeah, any thoughts Erica on this one. Yeah, I'm sure this goes on This has gone on before and they just got caught Yeah, and I feel like the penalties that they'll have to pay is probably worth what they did And that's just how it kind of goes because It's the systematic or systemic issue Yeah, I mean when you're in a fee-for-service system, you know, it's like the more services you get the more you You get money for so it makes sense that they're doing that Exactly Although I don't know if any others any other health care systems work any better based on what I've seen from other countries, too So You're absolutely right, so that's a good point sure like this is a big deal here in the US But I find it hard to believe that other countries aren't doing the same thing. So Maybe even worse. So I'm glad that we've been able to expose it and Hopefully it'll create more transparency on how how this all works from health care's plans to the government Bioforma trend the promise of DAOs and drug discover so this was published a few days ago and it talks about how, you know Pfizer announced it would want to join Vita DAO and Propose a half a million dollar bid for being part of Vita DAO and And sort of just talks about how DAOs operate in some detail So you can see this flow chart What their incentive is to do this because it's almost like I feel like part of the incentive for Pfizer to join this is just to have the press, you know and the Exposure to it, but I'm wondering really what they want to do to be involved in something like this Since they do want to keep everything so private that they do so I don't know It is interesting and you make a good point like in general those large pharma companies You know, I wouldn't expect them to join something like this But I think their goal and what they said in their proposal Was that they wanted to one allow these early stage research Projects and grants they want to allow them to happen and unfold So they want to support those early researchers, but in a way that doesn't really Involve them much at all so it's kind of like they're sitting on the sidelines But in the case where there are some researchers or some IP that is generated They would be able to get access to that deal flow. So it gives them sort of like a A VIP ticket into Investing in these companies later on So it's all about I think access to those early stage research Companies and then also Um, like you said, maybe just to show that they Are still innovating and they're not like Falling behind as a big pharma company Um, yeah, and it goes into some other dows as well. So you have genomes dow. It's based in the uk And it's positioned to be a direct to consumer genome sequencing company like 23 and me Labdow, which is a network of scientists and engineers designed to let researchers share their tools and services On a global marketplace and receive payments and tokens or shared IP Cure dow open source platform gear towards researching the effects of food drugs and supplements on human health I think this one's a really interesting one bio dow looking to Create an alternative for funding early stage biotech research and drug development projects In a decentralized way So yeah, I just thought this was interesting Yeah, I didn't know about that food one That's really interesting supplement food seriously because like if you think about How many supplements are out there that people are taking And none of them are approved Verified by the FDA at all, but the industry is huge and people are pushing it like crazy even like You know people like dr. Oz and others that are supposed to be doctors and you know Not necessarily pushing these supplements that don't have approval I would like to know which which supplements work and which don't and for who so And like with the move towards real world evidence and actual methods of gatherings data and meaningful ways I think it's this becomes even more important to have a way to gather as much information as we can and Utilize it in good ways instead of you know, all the studies that are out there that have so many confounding factors We don't even know what's really You know helping people So I think it's a good timing for all that stuff Agreed. Yeah, totally agreed Next up here we have the Not related to the blockchain, but there was a massive library released to help with cultural research But this isn't for any other place as well Just pause this over here. You're breaking up just a little bit. Oh, sorry. Okay. Just want to let you know Yeah, I appreciate that. Can you hear me now? Yep, better That's interesting. So this was published Recently and it was by a health technology startup called human first And they're changing the way clinical trials are being run And the company already works with many leading pharma companies and cROs Through their atlas pro offering, which is the industry's most comprehensive library of digital measures and technology and has Just released a new platform called atlas edu designed to give Qualified academic researchers access to their comprehensive library for free free of charge So this is a pretty big deal for the clinical research community Andy Cairo voss is the leader of that group of the company and She leads human first, I believe and What's interesting is No, this can impact a lot of academic researchers now immediately So even here, uh, dr. Amy Abernathy and the FDA commissioner Uh, have previously pointed out how the industry needs to needs a Industry needs improvement and describe the needs for a learning health system that is based on incorporating data from personal technologies such as smartphones and watches understanding treatment impact on outcomes and being able to identify improvements in care So i'm really excited to see what people come up with using this library of information If I click on the atlas edu Link here. It might be helpful to see what that looks like really quick This is what it looks like And you can search in a really cool way like You know activity, so I haven't created a free account, but you can Sort of see the idea here. So there's 2 000 different products that are catalogued in this platform 10 000 different measures Over 750 medical conditions and 6000 pieces of evidence So they put these all together and it really helps streamline research for um For clinical research. That's cool. Yeah Next here pharma voice the digital therapeutics revolution is happening why big pharma is buying in Although they say with caution. So we've seen you know the past few years big companies like Pfizer Novartis and no fee bms um, they're all really pushing their digital therapeutics space or group and They're doing this in a way that's very measured and You know Conscious they're not kind of just jumping all in Uh, and I think in the article it says You know the definition of digital therapeutics is somewhat fragmented just kind of true because You have apps that are could be digital therapeutics and you have maybe some sort of devices that include digital aspects and it could also be considered a therapy as well and Here says for much of pharma one of the driving forces behind the adoption of digital therapeutics is remote patient monitoring which allows for insights throughout the drug development lifecycle And they all talk about how big pharma's approach is You know the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world now have digital teams exploring potential Of digital therapeutics where they fit into the more traditional paradigm of making and selling drugs Here it says there's a conviction on the pharma side that yes, this is something that truly can't benefit patients and actually effectively combine with a drug strategy So I think their approach is interesting And it's good that you know, I think just having this article here creates more acceptance for digital therapeutics because I know five or ten years ago it was not as Accepting as a as a potential use Or device or sort of write the other app I guess But the industry has grown tremendously over the last five ten years and They've been able to prove the efficacy through clinical trials. So I think that has really helped as well Yeah, I was gonna say I know they've used it in clinical trials for certain indications that makes sense So and it's good for monitoring and things like that too Sure, there's there's like a feedback loop that's Enabled between patients and either their providers or even the pharma companies in some cases If consent is shared or provided. Yeah, I think it's a really accurate way of doing things in some cases depending on what you're measuring, but yeah, it's It seems like it would be embraced and You know starting with certain use cases and then indications and then going from there totally Yeah, here it says uh pharma is very good at making drugs selling drugs and making money from it So oftentimes what we're seeing internally is that we need to show that we're solving some unmet primary medical need So that's something that they Are trying to do to capture the value from digital therapeutics That's a good article Next Not really related to healthcare necessarily but more about blockchain and how there's been another sort of issue unveiled about from celsius and You know as we know celsius was Had some major issues lost a lot of their Capital earlier this year and they became bankrupt and in order to go through regulatory I know proceedings they had to share a lot of information about the company and some details about their customers as well So last week more than 29,000 pages of court documents Was sent and it revealed the financial details of hundreds of thousands of users celsius users That kept money on the the neobank celsius So obviously a lot of people aren't happy that they were doxxed there potentially. I think they're um, I don't know if their names were revealed, but Yeah names were shared I think like financial information probably Some other details email idrs and things like that were most likely shared here and Yeah, it's Gonna be a big issue for a while. I think um Especially because you know if you think about it many of these people's names that were listed may have been heavily involved with cryptocurrency. So now that it's public information. They could be targets to hackers Etc. So Yeah, this happened with ledger a few years ago Yeah, I recall that with ledger. I think Oh, really? That's I think it's ledger. Yeah, I was I was certainly targeted Oh, well, I hope nothing Happened from your experience. Yeah, I did. I had something happen, but it wasn't a major thing So it wasn't too major, but it was my own in the end. It was really my own fault. I just It's hard when you're out of the space for a long time. You forget. Um, I think everyone has had this experience Where you forget about, you know All of the phishing and so it just yeah I luckily it wasn't a major thing a major loss for me But yeah, this is I it definitely hits close to home when I see stuff like this For sure. Yeah, I'm glad nothing too serious happened. Uh in your case But yeah, I'm sure people Are trying to figure out how to make sure their accounts are their information or their wallets are secure and I think for the ledger it was like a The database the marketing side of the database Or like their sales database was revealed Well, I think it was like anytime that you had signed up at all to buy one You put in your name your address your phone number your meal address all that information was was leaked Yeah, so anybody who had ever bought one and so as you said it's like these people especially if you have a hard wallet usually have A large amount and so or you know potentially so yeah, it's it's not good For sure Yeah, so 600,000 people are affected Revealing their wallet address transaction histories crypto holdings and recent That's bad. So it's very very detailed and um, you know Another reason why these centralized Crypto lenders or exchanges um could be you know problematic Yeah, for sure I was educating people about that, but you know, yeah, there's not much you can do Um next I just have a couple educational nuggets here Uh, the first one is this developing the dow health survey an open source tool for web three organizational effectiveness I know dow's, you know, especially this year and last year have become very Uh big and important in a lot of people's Um workflows and I think what's interesting At least if you're in the blockchain space, of course And this article is pretty good at explaining how to optimize your dow community specifically, um So about dow health and what they're trying to do um So I thought this was I'm not going to go into the details here, but you know The results in dow is with the tendency to be high in temporal distribution teams or geographically temporarily distributed So it talks about like how it's different from a traditional organization and why You have to really consider designing it in a different way and Helping foster your community in a different way. So um Yeah, this is a good article if anyone's interested Also, this is you know discusses what measures you should keep in mind. So like kpi is basically for your dow's and Yeah, it goes into great detail about this. So I just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention and This was published on talent dow's blog So yeah, I'm not going to go too much but Feel free to leave a comment if you think that's interesting The next thing here is just a video. It's actually about two and a half hours long not going to play it But it's about self-server identity and you have a bunch of demos and one including um, the CEO of Spirity, which has been working on You know self-server identity for some time now And it's pretty recent. I think less than a couple weeks old and it took place in the netherlands So if you're interested check that out as well It's free on youtube And that's all I had in terms of you know articles and interesting nuggets of information But uh, erica or anybody do you have any additional Things to share with the community? I don't have any at this time, but thank you for sharing all that. That was super informative Awesome Yeah, if anybody in the Watching this later on on youtube has any questions or comments Or any additional information you'd like to share with the rest of the community Feel free to you know post that in the comments and you know, we take a look at it for sure Um, thank you. Uh, is there anything else anybody wanted to share or discuss today? In case I'll stop sharing my screen and I'll end the recording


Yesterday we were talking about giving two people the same information the same plan of action the same strategy Same execution and then I'm getting vastly different results some people crushing it Some people not really making much progress at all ending up frustrated And what makes a difference between the two in a lot of you in the comments had a great great answers amazing answers A lot of things about grit persistence hard work things like that I'm just in the my villa here in Bali. I'm about to move villas actually But I wanted to show you guys this one because it's really really cool It's like open air has Vietnamese French Vietnamese decorating Really cool like light fixtures and things like that and then it's kind of pull out there So I'm moving this week and then I'm moving into another house for a little over a month after that But what makes a difference between somebody who shows up and they get amazing results And you look a couple years down the line and they're building an empire and somebody who shows up And they get the same result they get every time seems to happen over and over again No matter what they're doing no matter what they're pursuing And it's a very simple answer and it's a long-term outlook now they actually did studies where they look at people who are in a band in high school and They surveyed and said do you plan to play the same instrument in college in the college band University band and Then they had these two groups they separated them into people who were gonna play in college And then people who were not gonna play in college they were just gonna play until the end of high school and then they were gonna quit after that and then they made the People who we're gonna quit at the end of high school practice for like I think it was like four hours a week And then the people who are going to play in college as well play for only two hours a week so the people who are gonna keep playing after high school they actually practiced half as much as the people who are going to quit after high school. And so one group they have a long-term outlook but they practice half as much right and the other group they have a short-term outlook they're going to quit but they practice twice as much. Now who do you think got better results there? I already said it up so it's pretty easy. The people who had a long-term outlook who are going to keep playing over the long term got much better results. They became much better musicians and the people who are going to quit even though they practice half as much. So we learn one thing there we learn it's not necessarily about how much you practice it's about having a long-term outlook and the reason is wise that people get into new opportunities people come in don't want to start a new business in whatever field whether it's e-commerce or an agency or an online course or whatever and they just dip a toe in the water and think well I'll try this for a day or a week and if it works I'll keep doing it but if it doesn't I'll go do something else I'll try and find something else and so after a week they might get frustrated and they quit and they give up. Now do you think somebody is going to get extraordinary results with a week of effort? No I've said this before life is a competition you have to stay in the game long enough to actually get good at what you do and get good at providing value to others you have to become the top in your field. Now the cool thing about starting an agency is that you can become the best person of what you do very quickly because you can niche down to a hyper specific niche and all you have to do is be the best person who does ads for and then you're niche like it could be pet groomers so you could be the best person in the world running ads for pet groomers and that's the cool thing is there's enough niches for all of us you know there's massage therapists there's chiropractors there's dentists there's holistic dentists so you don't have to compete against all the other advertisers in the world you can have almost no competition almost immediately in this field but you still have to stay in it to get good enough to get results for your clients you have to care about your clients more than just did I get results the first week so one thing that happens here is caring more about the process than the result people who only put up with the process because they want to get the result in other words the process is sort of like an obstacle to getting the result those people are going to fail very quickly because they just look at everything as a nuisance everything's the struggle everything is difficult for them they're just they complain and they complain and they complain and they're frustrated and they think this is a bad thing right but the people who are all about the process they know that the results are a byproduct of the process the results are not what you're after after the process you just stick with the process the results take care of themselves and so those people they don't look at things as a nuisance they don't look as difficulties in their business as a struggle they look at it as learning opportunities and they stick with it over the long term and they get those massive massive results because let's be honest to become like a multi-millionaire to make millions of dollars a year you gotta stick with something at least for five years that's pretty much common across all industries is the five-year mark is when you really start to blow up if you stuck with something long enough for mastery but another way to look at this it's really simple it's really simple let's look at two people who start going to the gym every day now somebody's like okay if this gets me in shape i'll keep doing it if it doesn't then i'm gonna quit and i'm gonna try something else and they go for a week they get really sore it hurts a lot um and they don't see any changes in their body and they give up that's be kind of silly wouldn't it we would look at that person and say yeah of course you've been in a week yeah people do this in business and with money all the time they think oh well i was in a week it hurt it was painful um they were sore like at the gym because they'd done something for the first time and then they quit and they're like oh that doesn't work because they didn't get results in a week but same thing with gym somebody who changes their lifestyle and they stop they stop asking after the first week does my body look the way i wanted to look instead they think this is my new lifestyle now i'm just going to keep going to the gym and then over the long term they're going to get those amazing results that they want they're actually going to enjoy doing it right you go to the gym long enough then you feel weird when you don't go to the gym business same way focus on that process keep doing it the results the change in your body in our gym analogy it's going to take care of itself if you just keep going that's the money you're going to get paid in your business if you focus on providing value to other people um that's going to take care of itself it's a it's an outcome of a of a process so the big difference long-term outlook versus short-term outlook are you in this game just to get a result or have you made a new lifestyle out of it are you committed over the long term and this is kind of cliche but um in rap music i don't really listen to rap music but they say get rich or die trying i think maybe that's a 50 cent album that's kind of how you have to be to have massive massive success so same with gym analogy get fit or die trying like you know that fitness enthusiasts are out there and they're just going to die in that gym floor to get what they want um and they know that's what it takes and so same with business like stop being one foot in one foot out stop dipping your toe in the water and think that you're going to be rewarded more than other people in society when you're not doing anything for anyone it's not about the opportunity it's about you committing to mastery it's about you making a lifestyle out of this and having a long-term outlook and continuing to do it and being about the process instead of about the end result and learning the results take care of themselves that's the biggest difference i see in people honestly people come in one week later say i'm frustrated they're doing something for the first time um and they haven't given themselves any time to get better at it of course their swords the first time going to the gym but if they stick with it becomes really fun the process becomes really fun and you can become a master at your niche really really quickly relative to a lot of other things in life you know really really quickly you go to university and get a degree and then get a corporate job and you could work your way up that career ladder for 10 20 30 years and not really get very far at all but when we talk about business starting your own business this is something where you can get exponential results and like i said in five years time you can be making more than 99 percent of the world but you have to stick with it become a master over five years you're going to get results in the first year you're going to get better results in the second year and the third year and the fourth year and the fifth year you're just going to shoot straight up to the moon because that's the exponential payoff of being in business for yourself so just like fitness make it a lifestyle think long term get rich or die trying that means no escape plan that means you're not dipping a toe in the water that means you would rather do this and fail than do anything else that's the attitude that you have to take is you're going to make it or you're going to die trying but you're not afraid to fail because that sort of takes to succeed i hope this helps i think a lot of you in the comments right you said things like grit hard work determination perseverance that stuff's cool but that sounds so hard and i think if you just take a long term outlook then instead of it being framed as a struggle this thing where you have to struggle through the process you just surrender to the process i think that's maybe an easier way to look at it and not being in it for that result not chasing that result just chase the process i think it's a lot easier that way there's less pressure and you just you just have to surrender yourself to the path because it's those people who are always thinking about switching paths and the shiny object syndrome the people who are always one foot out the door they're never going to get anywhere so just keep going uh become a master at your niche at a very specific thing for a very specific person and you're going to be rewarded with extraordinary rewards to stay in the game long enough to get good to help other people the results will take care of themselves remember that group of musicians the ones that practice half as much but we're going to keep going they got better results than the one who practice twice as much but we're going to stop so that's the attitude you have to take if you guys like seeing the villas in Bali let me know we'll do another villa tour at the next place but like i said it gotta move today and i will see you in the next one


Thanks for the organizers of the conference for inviting me here, as I said earlier my first time here was in 2001 as a PhD student, so my hair was darker. That's the main difference and thanks for the organizers of the panel for such a great amount of work that I that I read and that that I have to comment on so Just a little bit on my background right now. I come from a research center that standardizes household survey data for that in America with the World Bank and other institutions and 15 years ago we used to do all these micro simulation models the bourguignon Ferrera Lustig type of model. So this is really literature I'm familiar with and the Argentine government had for some time their capacity to do benefit incidents analysis a bit like the CQ approach a bit of Nora But that capacity unfortunately was destroyed a few years ago in the previous government when we also had the Intervention falsification of statistics. So right now I am in the government and I Do a lot of things but my main pet project was to reinstate that capacity and so we're gonna be borrowing A lot and I mean I think we don't call it copying in in academia, so But definitely I I relate to a lot of the issues you raised because I've been doing stuff on on family allowances And we have the problem of the random seed and what we want to have etc. So all these I relate but Really, I think these whole Euro mode and and children Models are are much more organized and what we did and and we're really Looking at what you are doing and incorporating your work. So thank you for that So in terms of praising the asterisk mod model, I'm gonna explain that in a minute I think having a unified and coherent framework for analyzing taxes and benefit systems and comparing them between countries and Between time within countries is amazing. I think it's a great For descriptive analysis and also for exploring policy options And I think that the case you presented is is the perfect example of why we want to have something like this And and then I was over lunch I was I was chatting with with dr. Levy of IDB and I think just just having as It's described on your paper having people from the social that I mean It's another name but from social development ministries and and and treasure ministries sitting together and looking at and tax authorities and looking at Taxes and benefits all together is I don't know how much this project is but that's worth It's many times worth it. It's it's costs. It's that's great And and it's very uncommon in developing countries. We did a tax reform a year ago in Argentina and it was very hard for We were a bunch of academic nerds trying to say no But if you change the income tax you also have to change the tax allowance because the bracket overlapped Etc. And it's very hard for policy makers in developing countries at least or middle-income countries to incorporate that and so What I read in your your testimony there is Something we should really have You should really show I think as a great achievement of a project beyond the the very interesting results So I had to to think about wrapping this up and and and all of these were very different papers in a sense and so Pia prompted me to try to to to to wrap it up and I'm very thankful for that So there's a euro mod. I call them asterisks mod because there's Latin mod and south mod etc. But it's a family of mod models What do we have in in this well what we've seen in this session is a series of outputs So the benchmark is the six models from African countries. That's something we we look in comparison We also had the counterfactual analysis that the Ecuador versus Columbia match in terms of social protection policies, etc Which I think is a very Very interesting and and original analysis and my favorite. I'm sorry. I shouldn't be picking favorites But I relate a lot to your efforts Applying this to the implementation of actual policy changes In Zambia and I'm going to talk about the the Zambian case because I think it's it's it gives us a lot of food for thought And in the way it's done and it's I think it's the way this kind of analysis should be done In terms of analysis analyzing the impact But also the options for financing and also the second round effects of the options because the taxes are not neutral So usually if we have something in developing countries, we have some kind of Butcher's exercise so we have a million kids and three dollars each and it's three million dollars and so these analysis I think was really useful And I'm very glad that I that I had to see it and then we have another layer Which is the layer of the inputs, right? And does the old joke about making sausages and looking at the process, etc But we have to look at the process and look at what goes into the machine I think in in fortunately for us in in in middle income Lower upper middle income countries in Latin America. We have We rely a lot on income data and we don't have as much consumption or expenditure data And so for these exercises, it's an advantage for measuring poverty. It's much much worse But so this is how I made sense of this. Is that okay? It's a plus I've been practicing a lot of PowerPoint skills. It's I'm very I'm very proud of it One thing that that that I shouldn't that I also want to highlight this is from from lectures in public economics by Rush Chetty It's how in main economic journals we've been There's been a growth in the use of admin data and I think What the last paper in fact I had a South Africa version, but it's it's still the same Is a very good example of how we can exploit and use more this administrative data. So I'm going Paper by payroll shameless plug. I am now an editor of journal of economic inequality I know I don't know if you've heard of it. Your submissions are welcome. I Had to say So looking at these individual papers The South Africa I'm sorry called it South Africa because I had mostly the South Africa exercise I think has a very comprehensive and careful analysis of several Alternative data sources and there are many insights there for one on the reporting measurement error Missing data imputation And how to deal with them like consistency adjustments grossing up also the tax collection the number of taxpayers which is also a kind of a difficult balancing act but I think at the base is a combination of Serving and admin data and it's something that we need to work more on and so that's why I think this work is is welcome We did this for Argentina. This is we took the the main house of survey and also data from like person tiles of Formal income and pensions etc. So we corrected for under development just to show you the left This is for formal salaried workers. So the whole distribution shifts to the right This is For beneficiaries of family allowances We have to impute and also we randomize who receives this because we have an under reporting in a survey And so we run it 50 times or 20 or 30 we do all the same things and this is the result We inequality increases a lot that the survey really on the reports income for higher incomes But this is just my favorite graph What we do is we try to see the re-ranking of households When we do the whole correction and so what we have here is which households Move up in the percentile the ones that move down and the ones that stay the same So that that that gives us a flavor of what kind of Changes are going on on the six African countries paper. I know For I mean for a living for 10 years. I harmonized household survey data. So and that's already hard So harmonizing the data and tax system models is quite an accomplishment. I I'm humbled As I said income versus consumption expenditure is not such an issue for us, but a General comment on all these papers Is that I think we should clarify a bit more Which part of the exercises are Accounting with no disrespect my father was an accountant. I have no problem with accounting at all and and what is micro simulation in the sense of incorporating? behavioral changes because when we simulate Large changes for marginal changes. There's no problem But when we change a lot income taxes when we change transfers, etc. You might expect some kind of non-trivial Behavioral response and I think that's something that that maybe should Should be included in the future not in this one, but in the whole family of Southmond Models in terms of assumptions and robustness for two of the countries All of the employee all of the sorry employees are assumed to be formal if I got this right and that that might introduce some some bias there maybe on what you've shown so I Don't want 56 tables by quintile by six countries That's too much, but maybe having some robustness to those assumptions. It would be useful and perhaps using more Figures crafts charts, etc. So for the work we did in Argentina. We chose not to go the Euro mode route We didn't go the CQ lucid route. We just did it on our own, but we have basically the same we start with a Market income adjusted and net transfers Direct taxes indirect taxes all of these rings of bell and then we have the deciles genie, etc so We tried to show the the whole effect of the state action and Here we have Taxes and social insurance contributions all the transfers all the direct tax indirect taxes that set all the And all the goods what we have and I think that's something we have the luxury to have because we're working With a lot of detail into one country is that we monetized health all education levels and also we included a lot of fuel and energy subsidies which I'm not sure in the African the six African countries as you say you have some limitations in what what you can monetize or not but at least in Argentina these are very Very important items in terms of government expenditure and So these are just taxes by diesel and expenditure by diesel on the Colombian Ecuador paper is it's a very Interesting exercise this counterfactual. It's very well published already in a very prestigious journal So I don't have much to add in that sense, but I really like that the composition exercise and I think what would you suggest it? That maybe you can do more of these the composition exercises with the other south mud models is Really great if you can build these into the capabilities of the models. How much I have Okay, good Now Colombia is richer than Ecuador so There's an issue of absolute versus Relative distribution and the level of benefits, but but I think that's already addressed in the paper my only point here is that Taking the the social insurance and tax and benefit system of Ecuador and throwing it across the the the border To Colombia will imply non-marginal changes In in people's behavior, and so that that might have an effect there Finally the micros amont so our I'm a bit Envious here that our next step is to build a micro simulation model for 14 and this this is exactly The type of analysis that we try to to provide to senior ministers and then the president when we have to make changes to social To cash transfer programs So here we have the expansion of a social protection program that looks Into its direct distributional impact, but also That's we have a treasured persons here We look at the cost and financing issues and also to the second round Distributional consequences of these taxes, okay, which are might be again non-trivial And so that's why I think this this idea of the joint work between social protection tax authorities and tax and expenditure authorities and and the joint assessments of both tracks is really a lot of Value added here for for policymaking or for the analysis of this type of Initiatives so Again Behavioral reactions there's an issue of the amounts if during dollars or not that I had never my ignorance But I had never heard of the currency. So I I didn't have a sense of how much that was There's only one point as you know perfectly well the devil is usually in the implementation detail, okay, so I was shocked to see that children zero to two were not covered and I think this is the main The my main take home of these papers how to cover them and the impact that would have now It's very easy for us with the whole survey to simulate how How conditions would change if we give this group some money It's not that easy for the social protection or social insurance authorities to reach them and and ensure that Coverage etc. So that's that's where I think We need to be a bit more careful when we say what the impact would be maybe some assumptions about imperfect Takeover incomplete take not take over take up. Thank you take over. I want to take over Zambia now that they have this model and Then the tax and financing of proposals section was very short, but you talked more about it So probably you're going it's it's in the making So keep on these excellent work where we all benefit from it There's one bullet point which is not here. Which is but is what you mentioned Confidence intervals. We need a bit more on that. We need we need to show I mean, we know how how much we we might be we might be wrong here So using more admin data Having more consistency work between admin and survey data robustness of results to alternative assumptions Adding as much as we can in terms of in-kind service provision and Next step probably agents behavior reactions for major and non non-marginal policies changes. Thank you very much