Hello everyone, I'm here in myself with a little feedback. That wasn't there before. Okay, that's better Welcome to another episode. This is the podcast broadcast of this week in science Super excited to have our Valentine's show tonight But I do need to let you know before we start the actual recording of the show that this is a live recording We're live streaming this on YouTube, Facebook and Twitch and so hey everybody in the chat rooms on the discord So glad to see you here joining us on this Valentine's Day or I don't know whatever you call it. We used to call it What was it in college? It was like taco day or something. Let's go have taco It was like Friday or Wednesday or whatever because you wore all golf clothes. Exactly. Yeah, this is my alley You and I we know each other this we got it So I'm super excited to have Allison coffin on the show tonight We're gonna hear more from her as the show gets going but before the real show gets moving Oh, yeah, it's Ash Wednesday as well. There you go. Good acknowledgement of that This part of the show will be edited out for the podcast if there are other Mis-talkings and troubleshootings and other issues along the way those will get edited out hopefully and The podcast is the place to go if you want to get it all nicely cleaned up and perfect in a package for you But this is the real thing folks. So hit the share hit the likes tell everybody all about it We're live right now and it's time to start the show. You ready Ali Let's do it. Okay, well, let us start the show Oh Beginning in three two This is Twist this week in science episode number 960 recorded on Wednesday, February 14th 2024 What's love got to do with science? I'm dr. Kiki and tonight on the show we will fill your heads with love songs man parts and how to do better at dating maybe just relationships at general but first Disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer We don't know what love is We know there are hormones involved That love is not lust but both are a must. We know that we relationships require trust But we still don't know if this thing that we feel that drives That lives inside each and every one of us It's truly something the thing that makes us human divides us from other earthly beasts Is our heart to blame? We've learned it's more likely our brain But still we can't reconcile this emotion that connects us and sometimes breaks us and rejects us and what we Know about the pieces and parts that are physically us Science keeps digging Poets keep spinning the stories and songs we are singing but love It's only a beginning For this week is this week's episode of this week in science Coming up next It's science everyone welcome to this episode of this week in science Happy day of science. Happy valentine's day as that is the day that we are Recording this show here in the united states in the pacific time zone. It's a different day for different people Some see today's ash wednesday. Some are celebrating different things. Some are avoiding it entirely but really Thank you all for joining us for this moment in time so that we can talk about science and yes, i'm running with the love theme related to valentine's day with a bit of science news and What I really do think will be a fantastic conversation about the importance of science in our lives Maybe it's a sonnet for science. I i'm not into like the you know rhyming doublets and all that kind of stuff but anyway My guest for tonight neuroscientist and science communicator dr. Allison coffin You might remember ali from uh twist a few years ago when we did a live show here in portland, or again um and ali And I have been working together for a very long time on a number of things and ali Just thank you so much. Thank you for joining me tonight. Oh, you're welcome. It's good to be here in our respective basements on this cold and wet valentine's wednesday afternoon or evening and Yeah, we've been working together for a long time. Um people might think that we look different But when you see us both running around conferences signing about the same or other events sometimes people get us confused And sometimes things think we're married, which that's true. We've also had friends think we're married I guess it is valentine's day. I love you dearly, but we are not married You're just not quite my type Yeah, they don't have our own respective partners, but we do have a good time together Because of science right, but just I I caught your bit at the beginning about like sign it for science just Don't expect me to come up with a sign it on short notice No No, but I mean if anyone listening right now has that inside of them, uh, you know Please do share. I'd love to I'd love to hear hear read Hashtag silence for science Oh, I like that This is like a good new social media campaign. I'm excited about this one. Okay All right As we jump into the show tonight, I do want to remind everyone you Who's listening right now who's watching right now that? If you're not yet subscribed to this week in science, you can find us all the good places that's not that Podcasts are found and if you're interested in the science podcasts go look for it this week in science We also live streamed like we're doing right now this very moment Wednesday evenings 8 p.m. Pacific time on youtube facebook and twitch If this is a lot of information and you don't want to remember all of it You can just find all the stuff at twist.org But now it's time to jump into the science You ready Ali Definitely some of the stories you've got coming up are stories that I'd already read a bit about this week and some of them I know nothing about So we can talk all about them Given that I'm giving a talk next week about dating in the animal kingdom For the organ museum of science and industry science pub I'm gonna get some extra material. So those that are local and are coming out next week. You might hear this twice And if you are local another point omsi has been uh nominated for one of the best science and technology museums in the united states so if Yeah, there's voting and Uh, I've got my fingers crossed. I love the omsi. That's very cool. Yeah Very excited for them. They're well deserving And I didn't know you were you were speaking there next week. Maybe I actually need to leave my house You might it's a tuesday not a wednesday. So you could do that and twist, you know, both things are possible without winding up the multiverse Oh, it's not even having to be parallel realities. No, it's not Serial realities with an s not a c although serial is good, too Yeah, but oat milk soy milk regular milk like lactose free milk, whatever you like. Anyway, let's get into the size Some people Yes, some people might be at home right now eating their cereal and listening to this or watching this show and Yeah, it's a valentine's day and you know, people get reminded of it and they're like People relationships dating. Uh, and there's a lot of people out there who are attempting to Find a relationship on online dating sites And on those online dating sites very you try to show your best self, right? This is the stuff I'm interested in look at how great I am. I'm gonna be The most exciting person that you'll meet I have these qualities. Look how good I look the best pictures possible Oh You try to make yourself look special because being special is what you find important, but everybody thinks that's important And so in this study that was published Just recently called feeling known predicts relationship satisfaction Yeah on valentine's day or at work or with your family or whatever This all all applies researcher juliana schroeder who has been looking into how people relate to each other and Appreciate each other and get really into relationships her paper Uh works It looked a lot first on like online dating profiles, but that this is not all it Connects to This is a deck. This is a research project that has been in the works over a decade So it's been Published in the journal of experimental social psychology They've been investigating how well people think they know other people People Family members partners friends Compared to how they felt known and then to rate their relationship satisfaction And more often than not people think they know people better than other people know them And what dr. Schrodinger or schroeder says is that this is what's called asymmetric insight And there's a another aspect to this where People they go to the doctor and they want the doctor their physician To be an empty vessel Nothing, but just to know them and feel their pain and know what they're going through And so the researchers were wondering if this is more generally represented in society and through the experiments and the scenarios that they presented to Many people over the last decade What they've found more often than not is that people Take a piece of information one little piece of information About somebody and go I know you But that's not the same for them feeling known And so when it comes to the dating profiles on the online websites Yes, make yourself yourself look special, but at the same time there's a Part of getting out there and letting people know That you want to know them That you're interested in who they are not just That's sort of like networking 101 advice right is ask questions of others get to know them I mean, I would I would think so and You and I both work in science communication and so much now it's like It's not about the message that you want to Convey it's about What people need from you and how you can help them in that right and about connection Yeah And about connection so It might I don't know It might just be who we are as as humans. I'm not sure but If you really really really want your online profile to pop and have a valentine's date next year Get to know people That let people know that you care And caring is a big and compassion and feeling And knowing other people isn't the same as just Knowing that they windsurf You know or for example Or that they fish and last thinking about one of my friends where he's an obsessed steelhead fisherman And if you know that he's an obsessed steelhead fisherman, you know, like miss 70 percent about him Exactly But you know, okay obsessed steelhead fisherman. He's spending his time getting up early. He's going out on the weekends He's doing these things like a lot of his life revolves around his boat or going out To places in nature where fish are or yeah Yeah, there are things you can have those conversations, but no he wishes. He's actually a scientist Studying human hearing so he's like in like the lab and at the campus most of the time just thinking about fish But total aside, right? So yes, usually gets no multiple aspects of people. I totally agree with that advice But that that goes into the whole well, you're at work You know this person Who is a scientist and if you didn't go deeper you wouldn't know that they were into steelhead fishing, you know, like There is you know, learning more about who the people are and this seems like Basic human interactions Why do we need to tell you about this? I think there was a point in time and this might be me Showing my age or just me thinking that things used to be different. But I think there was a point in time when without all social media That there was more back and forth human interaction of actually getting to know people better And there's a lot of research around loneliness in this country now that's showing that getting to know people better is Often the treatment for loneliness. So I think what you're talking about with this study About these online dating profiles and everything really taps into a much deeper issue That's really at the forefront of society. Yep Absolutely agree. But let's not talk about loneliness. It's it's valentine's day. Let's talk about like, I don't know chocolate or Later some stingrays. Let's get to stingrays pregnant stingrays. Let's talk about that one So this stingray named charlotte She's she's at the aquarium and shark lab in north carolina. She hasn't been around any other male stingrays for about eight years She's In north carolina. She is really really far away from where she came from, uh, which should be around southern california Uh, she shares a tank with Maybe some shark species and there have been some stories and headlines that are like, oh stingray charlotte got pregnant by a shark No, yeah, I've got a background That's a little too far removed now like there's some similar anatomy between a male stingray and a male shark But yeah, I don't see that happening. So all right What happened? What what happened to charlotte? So we don't know they they they discovered that, uh, charlotte was eating more and she was looking a little a little thicker and They just were like, okay What's happening here? And then they realized that she was pregnant and they estimate that she's, uh pregnant with as many as four pups and will give birth in the next two weeks But they they don't know how it happened. So there are questions about whether or not this is Parthenogenesis Which is that she's been alone for a very long time and this is In fish some reptiles Uh, some other, uh species This phenomenon does occur in which females can have eggs divide in such a way that it leads to offspring It's like internal cloning almost um yeah, uh The other idea is that and and we know that from some shark species who are related that And and also I think in some octopus species as well. So I don't know. There's these weird. There are these kind of edge case stories where Females have held sperm For a very long time Until the conditions have been right To give birth So we don't know whether what's going on here, but, uh The base the the hypothesis that everybody's really more prioritizing Is that uh, it's parthenogenesis There's a there's some cell involved That and a female's egg has fused fused with and so there's an embryo that's happened. Um They don't know why they don't know she's been without males for eight years and uh This is super rare, but also very exciting Parthenogenesis has been reported before in aquarium Shark species and like you said stingrays and sharks are related. They're all alasma branks So same taxonomic groups. So I my money if I was a betting person would be on the parthenogenesis angle And the really cool thing about that is that you can actually test that scientifically, right? So you can like sequence the dna and see if all of it Really does represent a clone or even just a few key genes if they all look exactly like the genes from the mom Then from charlotte, then you can really say yeah, this was parthenogenesis. Whereas if there's some weird genetic um Recombination going on that isn't just from mom then maybe she stored sperm for years and years and years and years Not really sure what why she thought this time was right then. So yeah, i'm banking on parthenogenesis I think yeah, I I would guess I that's what I would bank on as well um I hope that they do eventually do genetic studies to see whether or not that's the case and see how The you know how the relations are with the f1 f2 how it all works out But No, i'm not going to play ads here. Oh my goodness. I'm not sharing that stop sharing. I had a cute picture that went away And then suddenly it was replaced by an ad for a green or orange block or something. I don't know why Nope, I can't change it to the next one. Don't know why any who um Rachel, please edit this little bit out Uh But I do agree with that the part the Parthenogenesis is the most interesting fun angle to explore in this and It's also just so exciting To investigate even further in multiple species and try and figure out. What are the situations where parthenogenesis takes place? What kind of species? It can take place in you know the why where when Answer all the the proximate and ultimate questions about it Absolutely. Yeah, I was talking to a an aquarist or staff member at the sydney aquarium in sydney australia a couple of months ago when I was there and she was telling me about reports of parthenogenesis In some captive sharks and aquarium around the world. So Yeah, this just fits in with again some of the data. But yeah, if there any um geneticists listening out there or like a david shifman at white sharks matter Yes, from your buddies together and get some money like somebody should sequence this That would be a great study. Yes Um, have there been cases of human parthenogenesis?  No biblical references. But anyway, um, let's move on to love songs Do you have a favorite love song ali? The first thing that came to mind was I will survive by gloria gainer That counts as a love song Love check b 52 is like come on. You know me well enough.  Let's just dance Just dance Exactly That was a good bowie song true But yeah, and any favorite love songs or least favorite love songs. Well, let's go with favorites least favorite to take all day This is not a love song That works Yeah, okay. We're so romantic here. Yeah, clearly. Well, I mean, we're also like talking to each other on twist which is amazing on valentine's day while each of our partners are remodeling our respective houses It is really the language of love Hey, baby, I love you.  Okay Uh, okay this story is about the love songs of a species of primate Called the sky walker gibbon Who are they? They're kind of like jedis. I mean they're Endangered Extremely endangered. Uh, their scientific name who locked yang zing which I am probably not getting the Chinese pronunciation correct for But these uh these endangered gibbons uh have been thought to be Isolated to very specific areas of china and they thought that the numbers of the species were down to less than 200 But what this new study out of uc davis has found is that uh, there are a whole bunch of populations in mayanmar that they discovered through Setting up listening devices so recording devices out in the wild That we're basically waiting for these sound the hoots and the hollers and the love songs of the gibbons uh, the gibbons were singing their songs and usually They I don't know They can't cross rivers. It's like uh rivers or like nope not going to go there. So they're isolated by Geography and how the land and the rivers interact this study published in the international journal of primatology Is the first to show that there are uh, many more groups in in fact the Lead researcher tiara spiley evans whose faculty with the one health institute At the uc davis school of veterinary medicine says they genetically identified 44 new groups of skywalker gibbons, which Is a huge increase From where they thought these uh, these primates were How many gibbons live in each group? Like what's what's the social structure now? I have like all kinds of questions I have so many questions too. And so do they so they know that there are a lot more of them than they actually thought But the numbers are still very low considering that there's ongoing hunting. There are limited protected areas There's also political unrest in mind mars. So It's not, you know These gibbons don't have it easy But the researchers Really that what what's so exciting these acoustic monitoring systems We're able to get the solos of individuals and also duets So when they started singing back and forth and also together with each other and then they found plants That the gibbons had chewed on And since the gibbons had chewed on the plants they were able To genetically identify individuals In this uh in these various populations So they used environmental dna of chewed plants to enable them to Find this new distribution of this very endangered species And who knows it's very I don't know the e dna. Have you have you done much in the environmental dna? I haven't done anything with it, but I mean, I know a lot of it I have a lot of colleagues that especially are sampling More aquatic habitats, right? So a lot of like It used to be that if you wanted to know what species of fish or whatever were In a river or stream you went out and you collected a bunch of them. You stuck a net down and these days, it's amazing You can collect a water sample Hadn't heard of the chewed leaf thing before but like a water sample or you know some chewed leaves And you can Figure out who's been there. This is also now getting me concerned that because I occasionally throw like leftovers off my back deck into the woods behind my house is like The original form of composting for the coyotes and things in our and raccoons in our neighborhood We have to support the ecosystem Right, but at the same time like if somebody kind of come along and be like who chewed on this and like find my dna intermixed with like a raccoon or something Yeah, you know like me Right the hand guardians of the galaxy, but like all right who's been eating this you know chicken bone I think that they have the ability to differentiate, you know, the the Identifying markers of humans and raccoons enough. Oh, I'm sure they can. It's more that they might think we were like passing it back and forth With the raccoon right But anyway back to the givings Yeah, so it's very exciting. There are a lot of questions that they have yet to answer and the big Hope is that because now that they know these populations exist in these places that they didn't know before that they can Create new protected areas. They've proposed protected areas. You know, of course, this is going to take political and cultural societal cooperation To to see it through but You know in doing this it would save a species of primate and we do know that primates are kind of You know, it's the it's the They're one of the the species or many of the species in ecosystems that when they start disappearing and dying off Uh, it it's showing that there's real trouble in the ecosystem because if the ecosystem can't support primates Then it's not going to continue to support all the things that are necessary to support us Right If the primates aren't there to chew the leaves then the leaves get carried away and right Yeah, just massive shifts in like who's eating what living where and hanging out with whom so yeah I always want to know who's hanging out with whom But not necessarily be there to hang out with them Right in the middle of the hangout I know, uh So, uh, what happens to you alley when you Are set free You know, somebody opens the door to your lab and lets you out They say you don't have to stay in the lab anymore You can go out Do you change your behavior of who you hang out with and what you do? Not Really? I mean, uh, what you see is what you get like I'm pretty much me All the time do I try to not curse too much in the lab or when I'm teaching? Yes Um, but otherwise, you know, it's it's pretty much me like I was just in a conference last week The association for research in otolaryngology big word basically means we study ears and a few other bits But mostly ears ears and brains hearing things Down in anaheim I mean, yes, that's still me surrounded by scientists But that's literally my favorite week of the year because it's great science and it's meeting like All of it's seeing some of my best friends that I only see once or twice a year And then the last night of the conference every year is what's called the hair ball Because we have little cells in our ears that are hearing cells called hair cells No idea who originally came up the name.  That's immediately where I went and I was like, this is not a party I want to go to no, but in this case it's just like a massive dance party And myself and some of my closest friends are always the ones in the middle of the dance floor that get it started So basically when you let me out of the lab, I'm in the middle of the dance floor But often still with a bunch of scientists or whoever like That's what whoever Dancing not you're not a mouse obviously No, I am definitely not a mouse. I'm too big and loud And stompy to be a mouse I don't even know if that's a word I wouldn't say you're stompy No Grumpy that's only in the morning before I have coffee.  You're strong. It's good Thank you That's also a nice way of saying yeah, I have a forceful grip and I break things in the lab What happens in the lab? Yeah, I'm really gonna break and stuff But anyway, I'm not a mouse So you clearly have a really interesting story about mice and I Will give away the the title of female freedom. So tell me more what's up with these mice So it's a big question in research Are the things that we're studying these model species like mice Really doing the normal behaviors when we keep them in cages that they would normally do and if you're studying Brain and behavior if you're studying hormones if you're studying the way Animals work in the world and are trying to relate it somehow to humans There's a there's a whole question Like we used to only study Male animals and male people and all this stuff and oh then suddenly they're like, oh, we should really start including You know not just lumping males and females together, but start separating them out just different genders try and figure out if there were If there's differences going on and it was just too complicated for people a long time ago and so Until NIH and other places started requiring it because they're like no really Female animals are not just like male animals with estrogen like hormones do all kinds of things and behavior is different than Yeah, female humans are not just male humans with more boobs like no, it's There's differences. So Very big differences And you know, I I worked on birds. We would Get wild birds bring them into the lab and the area that the research is is ethology It's like you try and make a lab situation as much like the real world as possible It's still not real But anyway, you're trying to do that in this particular case a study published in bmc biology Researchers at Cornell University. We're like, oh let's take genetically Like clone there's strain not clone, but their uniform the strain of mice c5 c57 bl slash slash j 6 j Black 6 j. Yep. Yep These are mice they used to be house mice But now they are a strain of mice that is pretty much genetically all the same And so in the labs everybody's been like, yeah males and females. It's all right. It's all good They do the same we see what males do and females do and then the Cornell University researchers went What if we let them out? That's usually a researcher's worst nightmare because suddenly you're like Crap most just like ran through the hallway and I recognize the strain. We have a problem Okay, so they did they just like literally like open the door to the mouse cages and like be like be free run around the lab Or what did they do? They made an outdoor enclosure. So it's very It's big, you know a large size much larger than the normal mouse cages that Are in laboratories. Uh, the researchers looked first they looked at the differences in the male and the female behavior and It looked at how The mice determined their social structures how they formed their social structures and in the study they found that male mice Let out into this enclosure act just like the wild type mice so like if the this Basically the house mice that this strain of mice had been taken from originally the males were like, yes, okay I go out. I do the male thing and it's all the same as the other males females however in the laboratory situation they Very often tend to be very social. They hang out with their sisters. They have these social groups they uh They engage in a lot of It just very close social behaviors, but the females in this experiment Acted very different than the wild type and uh and from the males So when they were let out into this large Outdoorish wild-like enclosure instead of hanging out with their sisters They were very random about their interactions. They became exploratory. They became territorial. They started uh because Resources were not necessarily Always going to be available to them. They started acting in a more competitive manner. They didn't work as cooperatively the females in this outdoor free Living system they tell they had social structures and at all They did set up social structures, but it was very different Than have how they acted when they were in the laboratory situation So I think this is one of those examples of It and it was also different from the wild type females as well. Uh, so this is an example of What is really happening with the genetic strains of the animals that we're using as our model behavioral systems or for those studies and What situation are we putting them in and how does that situation actually relate to the questions we're acting asking and You know the results that we're getting yes and how Just by studying mice in a lab. We can't learn everything about everything Oh, we've cured cancer and mice so many times. We've like done all these things We've got mouse lives saved so many times And it's been super useful like there's so much we can do with mice. It's just that's not All there is Yeah It is not all there is but uh, I think it's I think a very interesting study, you know Yeah, instead of keeping the animals in Let them out and see what happens and see how it differs and what's going on Like as a university scientist just imagining the paperwork that you have to do to like go from our mice are in cages And they're like, yeah check your mice are in cages too. We're sticking them in these big outdoor enclosures And the animal care staff is Going to flip Oh All of the forms they had to fill out to like even stick the mice where they stuck them that right there Is like a tour de force regardless of what they got Yeah All right, uh, uh, since our since our male partners are off, um We're gonna Male parts. Yeah tearing apart house parts. We're gonna talk about male parts Yeah, actually I already mentioned this study My husband the other day. Yep so, you know There is an issue as males age with sexual dysfunction where Erections are not as reliable as you age as you hope they would be we've got all sorts of wonderful If somebody's erection that looks like a really weird Angel with like a bird face on top Yeah, so right now. I'm showing an image taken from the study of a cross section of the mouse Uh penis I'm still saying those penis looks like a somewhat surprised light cartoon bird Got like arms things and like the head up here Yes, okay, but anyway back to most erections Uh, okay, so, uh A lot they people have known for a very long time some of the issues related to uh maintaining sexual function as Men age and there have been a lot of Neurotransmitters like noradrenaline that have been involved people study, uh vascular Uh constriction or relaxation to see how the the blood vessels we there are heart medications that are sometimes you there's all sorts of stuff that's Trying to figure out how to help men have more and better erections longer into their lives Not just how men but help whoever they happen to be with as well like right well, yeah I would like more studies related to how Women age and how we can do it anyway Yeah back to the study back to the study focusing on men uh The bottom line of this study is erections beget erections When an erection occurs it stimulates the production and the action of fibroblasts in The penis and those fibroblasts uh impact The erections that occur so they uh the fibroblasts are uh Basically these mediators between noradrenaline and the widening widening of blood vessels and Those fibroblasts stop working as well as you age so uh The bottom line is hey Wow, we didn't know this when you have an erection It works your fibroblasts and there's more fibro other than more erections so more erections lead to more erections fibroblasts are abundant, but um this is a mouse study and uh, yeah, exactly david huh on youtube Use it or lose it that is the bottom line for this particular study Yes, this uh, you can read more about it in the conversation, which is a fantastic A fantastic scientific resource Where researchers talk about their work and make it very available to people The study Yeah, it's free, which is really wonderful. Uh, but the study was published in science corpora cavernosa fibroblasts mediate penile erection In the stack of science magazines sitting on my kitchen counter right now, but I don't need to get to Yeah, you'll get to it eventually Oh my goodness This is the second science everybody We are running through the show right now And I just want to remind you that if you enjoy the science that we bring to you on a regular basis Please head over to twist.org and click on the patreon link You can help us continue to do the show by your financial support You can choose your level of support on a monthly basis $10 and more A month and we will thank you by name at the end of the show There's also a zazzle link where you can go and buy merchandise that is related to twist Some of it is art that blair has created herself There's a calendar 2024 calendar that's available currently all art by blair All sorts of neat things there, but you know really share the show If you know somebody who needs This science discussion in their lives Tell them about twist Can't do it without you. Thank you for your support All right, gonna come back right now because we are I did I told ali that I didn't want to keep her all night long But I do want to but I can't because she has work to do Because you know, I was going to submit a paper to a journal tonight. So that'll just happen Yes Time to reintroduce my guest tonight my co-host Get into the real meat of this show with Dr. Alison Coffin. Alison is a neuroscience professor at Washington State University, Vancouver Her lab focuses on mechanisms involved in hearing loss and repair She's the president of the association of science communicators Where I've been working as well and had the privilege of working with her for the past several years We work together to Help support the science communication community and have a conference every year called science talk Which is coming up and I think uh friday is the last day for early bird Registration if people are interested in that conference Um and ali's been interviewed on the show before like I said during our live program and we've talked about Ali's fish hearing cell research and other work that she's done but uh tonight You know, it's valentine's day and You know, we can talk more about Your hearing research and what you do, but I mean I want to take this opportunity opportunity to get intimate Like why do you I know that love science I know that you talk in your sleep sometime because we've slept in separate beds in the same room How much more intimate do you want to get girl? That's what happens when you invite me on a short notice You've been waiting the whole show to say that It actually didn't even occur to me until just now and you're like let's get intimate and I'm like hmm Yeah, we've room together conferences. Uh Yes Yeah, so but yeah, when we come come down to the question of the research that we do that you do uh as a researcher Why is it a love? Is it like a passion? Like is it Like would you send Your science of valentine I don't really send anybody a valentine But um if I was going to send valentine's yeah I think it would actually what I would do and I'm not just saying this is if I was going to send anyone a valentine Which to be honest is like way too much work these days. Um I it would be to Not the scientists but the scientists To the people that are working in my lab The graduate students the undergraduate researchers the technicians like For me a lot of it is the love of the science But just as much is the love of sharing that science with others and seeing especially Early career scientists so students. Um, yep. Look, there's my lab. That's our lab logo We've got some zebrafish going on Yeah But oh I need to change that that still says science talk. That is super old. All right So we'll get that working but no so much of it is About the scientists themselves and the students that are thinking about careers in science So to me, that's really where the valentine goes. Like I love the discovery I love Being the first to know something But and that's not me being like, oh, I'm the first to know like I'm the smartest person. No It's simply like having a question being like, hmm I wonder going oh huh I can figure that out and especially I can work with others to figure that out for me science is very collaborative and it's really about The mentoring and seeing people move on that I love the most I think that's something that is often overlooked And I think it's been discussed more more regularly over past several years as we've seen larger and larger groups of scientists coming together in efforts to take on big projects and questions, but You know the the historical idea of a scientist is like this one person Usually a man Yeah, one person who came up with an idea and that is Them and that's it And that's not always but often complete bs Like are there some people like the lone scientist in the lab or like at the white board or back in the old school days Like at the chalkboard like tearing their hair out and coming up with a great idea Yeah, like that's totally happened but so much more of it is The collaboration and the exchange of ideas and the supporting the next generation of scientists like I was talking about this obsessed steelhead fisherman friend of mine we met at a conference when But he was a graduate student and I was a postdoctoral researcher so that period in between like finishing your phd and in my case being fortunate enough to land a faculty position And over drinks at this conference we met at He would he had this idea for this steelhead project even though he was studying human hearing And he's drawn me the diagrams in the back of a cocktail napkin. Yes, that actually happens sometimes And we published the paper a couple years later And it was a group of us that wasn't just he and I we brought like four more people into the project and it was Super fun and involved getting steelhead from different hatcheries in the pacific northwest and eating pizza and having drinks over trivia As we were coming back from the hatcheries at nine o'clock at night And then like doing the science and finding out the lights in my lab automatically turn off at midnight, which I thought he was playing a trick on me. I just like I just started my own lab and put them like why is it dark? That's really So and I'm not saying that. Yeah Yeah, and and uh, yeah that dude in the middle that is andre the obsessed steelhead fisherman or buddy jerry next to Yep. Oh, look there's rakeem another. Yeah current graduate student fisheries guy and all around like amazing human Right there. I got to say that rakeem is not only a great fisheries biologist and graduate student. He is also the Founder co-founder of the pdx climbers of color and pdx hikers of color groups. Oh, that's cool Is committed to taking people of color out into nature in an encouraging way where Those people have often felt discouraged So he does a lot of really good work on our community and in addition all of the the great work that he does as a scientist Which gets back to love right love and and and not just like Romantic like connections Just like you were talking about at the beginning kiki with like getting to know people Yeah, you might know that one thing which is like he's a fisheries biologist rakeem And then it's like oh, he's also a climber and a hiker and then you get to know all of these other things It's the getting to know people and honestly, I mean, you know me. I'm an extreme extrovert So it's really it is the human interaction part of science that I love Just as much as the science itself So you went from just working with fish uh and being a fish biologist into Working with in the specific questions related to hearing and hearing loss and repairing hair cells Is there anything that you talked about your conference recently recently the of otolaryngology and I just yep your recent conference and your trip to australia. Is there anything recently that is related to the work that you've been doing That you just were like, oh my god, I love this so much So the biggest thing that just came out of the conference I was at is To be honest one of the the the one that was in anaheim last week is one of the biggest breakthroughs in our field In many many years and this is something like you might have already covered it in twist last week I'll admit I was coming back for a conference. So I wasn't paying much attention. Um, but It's been in the air times washington post npr. It's that for the first time ever Multiple research groups on multiple continents have successfully used gene therapy to Help restore hearing in a subset of people that were born deaf This is the first time we have had gene therapy to improve hearing ever That's amazing. So this is uh, this is in mice or in people This is in people in people. Yes. This is not this is not a mouse study. This is people Yeah that have a mutation in a particular gene called otofurlin and Why the researchers and there's several different research groups that targeted this particular gene to be the first one to bring to clinical trials For gene therapy for deafness is because so often when somebody's born deaf and one in a thousand babies are born with some Hear it with genetic hearing impairment, but so often it's because they're hearing cells the hair cells in their inner ears um, the genetic mutations have caused those cells to degenerate or not form properly So once that baby is born the hearing cells are already Damaged or destroyed you would have to grow a new one and that's a lot harder Whereas with this mutations in this gene called otofurlin people that Have those mutations. They're deaf. They're born deaf, but the cells are all still intact It's that the hearing cells aren't talking to the nerve cells properly So the connections are like all the cells are there They're just not connecting the neurotransmitters not getting released properly But the the structure is all there and so that's like the perfect first test case for this genetic gene therapy because You're restoring function, but the parts are were intact before And yeah, yes, what so that was what I was wondering. So are these um reversals or restorations? I know there are sensitive periods for learning how to How to how to speak how to see how the our nerves and our brains Have these periods of time during our development. That's Kind of that are kind of set then after which the brain is less plastic than it would otherwise be um So is this gene therapy? Are the children hearing are they understanding are they like oh Like what is the The restoration consist of yeah, it's still a very small number of people number of kids um Ultimately they want to be doing these studies in kids that are like Six to 12 months old and babies because like you were saying that's like Right as kids are starting to babble and learn language They haven't done those studies in kids that young for for ethical reasons Actually, um some places they're saying the kids need to be at least in some countries I think including the us for now. They're like the kids in these studies need to be at least I think it was seven or eight To a point where they can actually Give their own consent Yeah In addition to their parents consenting now most of the kids in these studies do have a cochlear implant So they'll have a cochlear implant on one side So they have technological restoration of hearing and then they're doing the gene therapy in the other ear But then they can turn off the cochlear implant basically just turn off the battery And the brain goes I know what's going on right and call the kids name and the kid turns there was actually one really cute video views like a two or three year old chinese boy who They showed after I can't remember exactly how long it was a couple of months Following this single gene therapy administration. They showed him like dancing To actual music like because he could hear it and they had videos these kids before they would get their gene therapy parent would be behind them calling their name and they don't even turn around and then Six weeks after the gene therapy parent calls the name and they turn And then they were showing some of them starting to even the three four or five year olds that got the gene therapy Starting to learn language Whether or not that language learning is going to be as good as say a kid born with normal hearing Probably not but it was remarkable. So yeah, I'm super excited about Those clinical trials because yeah, we've gotten out of the mice now and and gone to people in this case and it's it's working And I feel like that's where You know, my Love of science really You know hits is the fact that there are good people trying to do Really creative things and learn things that can help people that can help humanity that can You know bring us to a more sustainable Equitable future where you know There's so like science is full of people who are really working without as much Compensation as they should be getting Yep How hard you work to get grants and how hard it is to make sure you can keep your lab running and the papers You have to publish and how hard it is to get to tenure and All of the things involved in being a scientist within academia are very difficult and people do it Because they want to ask questions and they have this drive to understand And then when things like this actually start Fruiting right where you start seeing results. It's a it it starts it comes back and you go This is why we do it, right? This is why we keep asking the questions How can we get Or how important do you think it is for people to understand? basic science The more applicable science The creativity and science like where do you feel like We can help, you know, people are like, I love science I got great grades in high school. Whatever, you know I read blogs or I look at it in the news or you know, I I see There's some tiktok influencers. I love science That's the science enthusiast, but how do I what do you think we need to do to go to the next step? How do we get people to really love science like to get it? I'm actually going to back up a little bit and say I would start with just more science enthusiast to be honest. I think science and not just science, but Expertise and knowledge in general has been getting such a bad rap You know, suddenly it's like oh, I You know what we can't trust people that have studied this thing for years and years and years and actually have some knowledge In a lot of cases it's because of the language that we use in science, right? It's like well We think this is likely what's going on based on the research we did But here's all the caveats because the scientists that's how we talk to each other So I would start with just like more science enthusiasts more people are just like, yeah I think science is cool. I appreciate how science impacts my life even if I have no interest in being a scientist or like don't necessarily Want to dig into the details of the scientific process, but it's like how science impacts daily life to me like I'd Yeah, like everybody has a science story. We are all walking science stories and to just appreciate our own science stories, right so like Chocolate and actually how climate change is impacting cacao growing in Africa right now Which is driving chocolate prices up for valentine's day like that was big story in npr today That gets back to climate science Yep, so it's like another study 15 percent of americans just Cannot accept that climate change is human related, you know, how do There's a certain segment of the population But there's a larger segment of the population who just don't don't understand how it works and have maybe haven't heard the right things But maybe chocolate we'll get to it. Maybe coffee Right like these things are so important, right? I think I was telling you when I got back from the trip to Sydney, australia in december, which by the way was phenomenal and so jealous What I want to go back. I'd never been there before and I totally want to go back But I was in this little tiny nice cow bar with like Six of my closest friends and colleagues and like 18 other people crammed in his little tiny standing room only bar Off of like some dark alleyway that if you didn't know to go down that alleyway you'd be like is this where I die I've seen this movie But the bartenders there weren't just bartenders, which I mean first of all bartenders are I don't mean to like be little bartenders bartenders are often bartenders and confidants And cleaners and like six other things at once bouncers But these guys were also and it was guys in this case mostly were also science communicators Yep, so this is this little tiny mezcal bar and The bartenders there would go to mexico and meet the mezcal producers And see the process and they would come back and as they're like, hey, do you want to sample this one or this one? It would tell you stories about how the mezcal was made like that's science And so to me it's not even so much do you get The exactly how the mezcal is being made or do you appreciate that like I'm drinking science right now like this matter. It's tasty I love that that that a sourdough bread that you're slicing up. You're eating science Oh, this beer that i'm drinking right now. I'm drinking science Yes, uh, I'll admit it, but there is an ethanol molecule on my cup. Thank you science on top. So exactly Yes, and science also if you're on city water allows Testing of your water and treatment of your water to make sure that it is clean and not Full of toxic chemicals or other things Or we hope exactly right Yeah, right but science can do these things right Getting back to the whole equity question but her issue, but yeah, it's just for me. It's just starting with like Your science story like what what do you care about and then oh, yeah, this is how science connects But getting a bit deeper you're talking about people appreciating or really knowing more about science. I think it's more It's the scientific process. It's not the facts like knowing a bunch of facts doesn't Really matter other than unless you want to win trivia like Yeah, it's it's good for your tribute team, but I mean it'll really love trivia and like to you know that that's exciting, but yeah, it's science is knowledge and science is process Exactly, and I think it's the process like the troubleshooting and the generating hypotheses and the testing them and the falsifying some and the supporting others but But that it's also a a growing changing process and that we might We're building on previous knowledge and shaping that knowledge and so I think to me that's really what's so important I really am excited about The shaping of knowledge. I think that's one thing that people forget sometimes is that when we find these new things when there's a new study or when There's so many systems in our society that people take for granted that It's people who made them. It's people who make them. It's people with ideas Who create them? It's people in cooperation Who allow things to exist and move society forward and science is one of the parts of that science is a human endeavor Yes, exactly. And as we've often said At association of science communicators now in large part. Thanks to your wording. Science is a human right Science is a human right? Yeah and it's not just I get to learn it. It's I need to be involved. I can be involved in it I can have my say in it. My community can have a say in it. I can Access the fruits of that knowledge. I can use the technology. I can All of it is Yeah, it's yeah, and it's too deep and like yeah philosophical since that's not usually where I go But don't be I know don't be right But I am getting hopeful. I'm starting to see hints of more of that true like community engaged science um science that really incorporates Indigenous knowledge and indigenous communities into generating the questions As well as researching the answers To those questions and I think that that's So critical and yeah, and that there's just there's a lot more of it being done Rather than like a scientist going into a community and being like I have this question And I want you to help me collect data to solve this question versus What do you want to know in your community? What are your concerns and how can we work together? Yeah, I was actually having a conversation with uh, my husband marshal the other other day and I mentioned the idea of strategic Communication by scientists that involved Going into communities to get to know the communities and ask them what they need In order to inform the research that the scientists do and he looked at me as if I was crazy and he He was a science major at uc davis when I was there The concept he was like wait, what? Well, that's because it didn't involve a thing I think that's all growing something up Your husband is Yeah, but you know, I think He's he's a smart person, but the fact that that was a Holy new concept and he works in marketing he works in communication he But the idea that is like that would be part of what a scientist learns to do and does moving forward was He was like this is big I was like, yeah The creation of knowledge rather than just like the transfer of knowledge. Yeah exactly Yeah I love talking about science. I love learning about science. It excites me about possibilities Um, I love sharing Science and what I learn You think this is curious about which number? 960 ish Exactly right. So you think you love sharing science talk about science to the tune of 960 some yep That's my valentine To science and to the people for the show ali. Do you have anything's I've kept you over the hour at this point so do you have um Any sonnets for science hashtag or uh I asked the point of sonnets for science Happening right now Or you know any thoughts and any or anything that you want to add uh around this, you know Just I I love the theme and yeah that it's really it's not just The love of science But just the love of an appreciation of like again of our own science stories of how Science has impacted us and it doesn't have to be like the big controversial life-changing stuff, right? It can be the mezcal or the beer or the coffee Although like those things can be life changing, you know without my coffee. I am dangerous Yes, you know that well, but it's that Yeah, it doesn't have to be the big stuff. It's the the little ways that science impacts Our lives that I think is so Important and so cool and all of the things that we still just like don't even know The more we know the more we don't know or the more we know we don't know Right like I always tell The students working with me That good science answers some questions and leads to more questions You know nothing john snow It's all about questions. The future is uncertain Love is uncertain I mean everything is you know underlined with love Really if we're working together cooperating collaborating trusting. I mean, that's a that's a key component of it You know, I think I think it's all the all of it ties in together And if we can accept uncertainty about love and our lives and the future just a little bit more Maybe we can accept the uncertainty that lies in science Oh That's deep. Oh, I go there sometimes I know. All right. I think we got to end on that just I got a shovel I got a pitchfork. Oh, no, never mind. I got a hub. I've got a husband with a crowbar Kind of flamethrower and a flamethrower. That's right, but it is time to end the show and ali. Thank you so much We're spending With me. Yes. Thank you for being my valentine now We should probably each go find our tabby cats Because they probably want some valentine love or at least some valentine snacks Yeah, a little treat some pets Yep perz some pets. That'll be wonderful Uh, do you have anything any places you want to send people for further information? Uh, yeah, absolutely. So association of science communicators science com.org or association of science communicators.org All on word. There we go coming up with the science talk 24 conference where our theme is it says they're opening doors And that's the whole idea is that we want to open the doors of science communication Just throw them wide open getting at that idea that whether you're a bench scientist A podcaster social media influencer mezcal bartender someone given tours at a boutique chocolate factory when an amazing one of those are not so boutique chocolate factory But like it's all science communication all relates to science. The doors are open and we welcome everybody yet So hope that everybody will check out association of science communicators.org and come to science talk 24 in april Starting virtually the beginning of april with multiple sessions and then we go live and in person April 11th through 12th here in portland, oregon Also will be live streamed and one of the things i'm super excited about speaking of like love of science And all the different ways it can be portrayed Is that this year? The thursday night of the conference april 11th. We are doing a science themed cabaret And that's going to be yeah, that's going to be at dantes in portland, which is better known as like a metal club So it should be a ton of fun and we have like science themed dances and science themed comedians some science themed burlesque Like this should be a ton of fun and honestly like the most portland thing ever because i love i love that it's The conference it's a virtual thing. It's a live thing. We're also doing a science week with all sorts of events Out of our little conference bubble Yes, we are And that's the thing we want to grow but Exactly. Yes, not just for those that are opening the doors of science communicator and coming in But yeah, the whole science week is for anybody getting back to like i love science or i like science Or i just happen to think that like I want to see these science comedians, you know And see see how they do or check out this science themed burlesque act on plants or something like it's all going to be awesome So absolutely. Let's do it. I honestly Science burlesque is so intriguing and science comedy. Yes. I mean all of it Yes Yes, and yes, and yes, and yes I need to take more classes there Ah Allie, thank you so much for joining me tonight. I and joining our audience tonight. It's just been Wonderful to hang out with you. I really appreciate the time Oh, you're welcome. Can you take it? And yeah, it's always fun and it's probably everybody watching if you're still out there can see Yeah, we tend to have good time So we probably got a little carried away, but then again you get carried away with Justin and Blair too So it's all good I do not You know never Carried away. What are you saying? I know I actually thought I was pretty well behaved compared to your usual co-hosts Oh, yeah, you yeah Pretty much Sort of kind of maybe not Yeah, I mean there were no curse words You you acted in a very professional manner. You might have given out one of my personal secrets, but that's okay You can edit that out All right, all right, if you want to hang up now, it's fabulous and fine with me I need to do our outro and I have a lot of things to say I'm gonna go grade some stuff So go grade things. I hope your paper gets accepted where you submit it and uh, I will talk to you against who All right Catch you later girl. Good night Hey And everybody here, thank you so much for being here for the show. Thank you for being a part of the audience Happy Valentine's Day I love you twist loves you. I love getting to talk to you I hope you enjoyed the show and all the things that we had to discuss tonight Uh as we end the show I do have specific people to thank for All the things that end up being done to support the show and make it happen Fada, thank you so much for your support in show notes and on and the social media Gord Arnlor, thank you for helping to keep our chat rooms very happy and nice great places for everyone to hang out Identity four. Thank you for Recording the show and Rachel. Thank you for editing and as usual, of course, I need to thank our Patreon sponsors That's you the people who make the show possible the patrons of the show Aaron anathema arthur kepler Craig Potts, mary gertz, tressa smith, richard badge, bob coles, kent north cook, george Chorus, pierre velezarb, john rataswamy, carl cornfield, chris wosnack, vegaard chef's dad, donnan styles aka don style Oh my gosh, ali coffin She does support the show Reagan, shubrew, sarah forfar, donmundis, pig, steven albaran, darryl my shack, andrew swanson, fredes 104, scalook paul runovich kevin, reardon noodles, jack brine, carrington, davidie, youngblood, shon clarence, lab john mckay, greg riley, marqueson flow, steve leesman aka z mckenn haze, howard tan, christopher rapin, richard, brendan minnish, johnny gridley, chemi day, chi, burton, lotta more, flying out, christopher drier, greg briggs, john atwood, rudi garcia, dav wilkinson, paul lewis rodney lewis, paul, rick ramis, philip shane, kurt larson, craigland, and sue doster, jason olds, david neighbor, eric nap, lawnmakes, eo, adam mishkan, kevin perishan, erin luthan, bob calder, marjorie, paul d disney, david simmer, simmer lee, patrick pecoraro, and tony steel Thank you. Thank you so much for all of your support of twis Couldn't do it without you If anyone out there is interested in helping to support twis in an ongoing fashion I do hope that you will go to twist.org and click on the patreon link Because I'd love to have you and your support through patreon All right, now I say all the things that would normally be shared between me and another host on next week's show Justin will be back. So I'll get to do this back and forth with him. Don't miss it We will be back Wednesday 8 p.m. Pacific time broadcasting live from our facebook twitch youtube channels You can also find information of those links at twist.org slash live You want to listen to us as a podcast? I hope you're subscribed If you're not subscribed you can look for this week in science wherever you like Podcasts and if you listen to the podcast you can share it with your friends And that would really be an amazing thing for you to do. Oh share your things. That's awesome For more information on anything you've heard here today show notes and links to stories are going to be available on our website Thanks to rachel and also on the youtube channel and all that thanks to fada So go to twist.org Where you can also sign up for our newsletter. I I think I sent one there will be more There will be you can email us contact us directly host Come to us. Tell us what you need what you like My email is kirsten at this week in science dot com just in his twist minion at gmail.com blair is blairbaz at twist.org and you know, you need to put twists somewhere in the subject line So your email doesn't get spam filtered into A free running female mouse out doing what she wants to do in the great outdoors Or a lost fiber blast. I whatever You can ping us on the socials we're usually twist science twi s c i e n c e on the social media accounts. I'm also at dr kiki There's at jackson fly at blairs menagerie Look for us various places This week in science is usually a good thing to do. We love your feedback If there's a topic you want us to cover or if you want to suggest somebody To help me out on one of these weeks when I need another host to talk about science with Let me know I'd really really like that and I and justin will be back again next week for more Great science news. We hope that you'll join us again And of course if you have learned anything From the show tonight Please remember This week in science is the end of the world So i'm setting up shop got my banner unfurled. It says the scientist is in i'm gonna sell my advice Show them how to stop the robots with a simple device I'll reverse below the warming with a wave of my hand and all is coming your way So everybody listen to what I say. I use the scientific math week in science This week in science This week in science This week in science This week in science I've got one disclaimer and it shouldn't be news. That's what I say may not represent your views, but I've done the calculations We have made it to the end of the show It is the after show What does that say another big thanks to ali Joining me tonight. I did keep her a little later than I had So hard when I like talking to people about things She's a wonderful wonderful person. Oh no, the end is near Yes, paul disney I do think the end is near Save the fibroblasts. Yes Yes gentlemen I hope you all are uh Keeping entertained Staying curious doing what you need to do In your lives to you know Love where you are And love the people that you're with It is valentine's day and I know it says like you know created a holiday where the Capitalist card companies are like sell the cards and buy the cards and Go to dinner and buy the chocolates and do the thing and the tip It's consumerism that tells you Your partner that you love them But as we learned earlier, it's not that it is Actually letting people know that you see them That you really know them that you've listened that you've heard them So I hope that you feel comfortable uh reaching out Letting you letting us know whether or not we are uh Telling you science that's helping you whether we are discussing it in a way that is uh That you appreciate It's been another week Seriously today was a day Okay, I woke up sick sore throat cough didn't feel well I might be having a little sore throat myself right now. I don't know. I'm trying to ignore that kind of stuff Anyway And then uh, yeah, and then old house. Oh boy. Yeah, I have an old house and we're tearing out demolishing the ceiling in the laundry room and It's One thing after another. Oh my goodness It is quite a thing When you go into the archaeological evidence of how people have uh have retrofitted and adapted and renovated a domicile over time At a certain point it just doesn't make it sense anymore But again Coming back to that uncertainty not knowing what you're diving head first into And you know, I just have to do it anyway What may come right? What may come of it? I hope you all have a wonderful night or if you are morninging. I hope you're having a wonderful morning I hope you are Enjoying wherever you are in space and time right now Fata yes, have a wonderful romantic dinner with yourself I think we all need to uh, I think something that people say over and over again I think is very true Make sure you're taking care of yourself make sure you love yourself And then that will make it much easier to learn And enable yourself to love others Put you in the place of being able to give I'm not going to go any further. I'm going to stop talking Everybody go watch your tv shows Uh, have your sciency bits Have your dinners Enjoy your music A young kid stopped having valentine's plans over there I don't know about young kids these days Even though I have one I don't even know what's happening anymore Can I just stay in my cold basement? No, that's not true. I go out. I'm out. Tide 90. What? Exactly. Thank you, David, huh? For noticing we're gonna call it right now Yeah, I'm gonna go watch the inside of my eyelids as well paul. It's good either that or slaw houses I guess I like slaw houses right now. That's my new favorite um Tokyo vice has new episodes out if you're looking for another interesting show The brother's son also really enjoyable on the netflix things i've enjoyed in their recent weeks Have a wonderful night. Thank you so much for being here And As usual, uh, stay curious Stay safe Stay as healthy as you can And Still lucky We'll see you again next week. Thank you once again for joining us joining me on this evening Take care


20 seconds till 8 p.m., B-U-L-O-V-A, boulevard watch time. Men, choose today's outstanding watch value, the 15-joule boulevard officer. Handsome, accurate, thoroughly dependable. Only $24.75, including federal tax. Now, Roma Wines, R-O-M-A. Made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. Roma Wines, present. Suspense.  A suspense play produced, edited and directed for Roma Wines by William Spear. Suspense. Radio's outstanding theater of thrills. It's presented for your enjoyment by Roma Wines. That's R-O-M-A, Roma Wines. Those excellent California Wines that can add so much pleasantness to the way you live. To your happiness and entertaining guests. To your enjoyment of everyday meals. Yes, right now, a glassful would be very pleasant, as Roma Wines bring you Elliot Reed, in a remarkable tale of suspense. Nurse. Yes. There's someone to see you. Yeah? This is Superintendent Andrews of the State Institution. Oh, what do you got there? I've set up a dictaphone out in the hall. Careful of the wire nurse when you close the door, please. The doctor said... Yes, yes, I'll make it as brief as possible. Let me go now, nurse. Very well. Do you mind if I hook up this microphone at the head of the bed? Suit yourself, fella. It was a choice between a dictaphone and a stenographer, and I figured that in your condition... I don't feel too bad. Go on, ask your questions. No, I understand you were driving the bus. Tell me what happened. You mean, I can tell it my own way? That's right. Great. I had an uncle once, you know, that was a writer. He wouldn't have gone near this kind of a story, though, with a 10-foot pen. No, he went in for happy endings. Uncle Mort wouldn't even have liked the beginning of this one. Kind of dreary like up there at the asylum that afternoon. You remember, there'd been quite a snowfall the week before, and far as the eye could see, everything was a dirty gray, like a corpse that's been waiting too long for the undertaker. Well, around four o'clock it got so dark the lights had to be turned on in the asylum, and then the wind started moaning like a lonely banshee. Fine day for a murderer, as the fellow said. Well, there were three passengers sitting in the bus when I went outside for the return trip. Two men and a woman. Maybe I ought to call her a girl, because she wasn't really much more than that. Anyway, these three passengers all had returned tickets, and I went down the aisle collecting them. Tickets, please. May I have your tickets, please? Driver, driver, how soon do we start? Right away, miss. But we're two minutes late already, driver. Oh, these little jerk-water bus lines never keep to their schedules. Now we'll never get out of these mountains before that blizzard lets loose. Can I have your ticket, please, Mr. Hill? Do you really think there'll be a storm? Why, sure, sure it can't fail. And, lady, when they have snow up in these godforsaken mountains? Well, this morning on the bus, coming up, a man was telling me... Well, here we go, folks. The bag was sitting right across the aisle from the girl, second row from the front. Halfway back in the bus at the third passenger, all huddled up in his overcoat. He didn't open his trap. Well, that was the picture as we swung out onto the highway for the return trip. This guy in back of me seemed to be itchy to start a conversation with somebody as soon as we got rolling. Well, might as well get acquainted, miss. Fifty miles before we get down to civilization, you know. John Willard is the name. I said the... Oh, I beg your pardon. Are you speaking to me? Well, yes. I'm afraid I was... Yes, sure, sure. These visits to the asylum, they're always depressing out there. Well, this is my first time. Oh, there's some friend... My husband. Husband? Oh, well, now, that's too bad. I hope he... Hey, what's that? Some kind of an asylum. Yeah, that's the asylum alarm, all right. The driver, what... One of the inmates must be playing hide-and-seek with the keepers. What happens every once in a while? What if it's my brother? Oh? He the bustin' out kind? Well, it kind of upsets him to see one of the family, but then if we don't come to see him, it upsets him even more. I see what you mean. Do they... do they always catch them? Well, they tell me the place has never lost a customer yet. Oh, you know, a moment ago, I... I was praying that it wasn't Jim, but now I don't know, even if they had to... I mean, it would be better than seeing him as he was today. Anything would be better than... Listen, listen. Hey, that's a police siren. Sounds like they're almost on top of us. Yes, there they are, there they are. Look out. Look out, they're going to pass us. That's nothing. They're flagging me down. All right, just keep your seats, everybody. They're guard. Hey, we're, uh... We're looking for somebody. Yeah, we heard the asylum alarm. There's someone, uh... You know, they went along the road. Not even a Jack around. Officer, who escaped? Greg, Albert Greg. Oh.  Hey, Holly, take yourself a walk down the aisle and keep your rifle ready when you look behind those back seats. Are you kidding? When was this coming out, party? I don't know. Maybe as much as a couple of hours ago. Does this Greg have a gun? Can't guarantee he hasn't. But it was a file that sprung him. A tiny steel file. It must have been working away at the bar since the day he was committed a month ago. His stay was short. Nobody back here. Okay, now, check the gents for identification. You know how to drive. You can't take chances. Oh, of course not. Here's mine. Huh? Oh, okay. Uh, your name? Frank Keniston?  Contra? Huh. Friendly, cause. Ain't you? You know, that's the first Pete that passenger has let out. I was beginning to think he was a death mutant. Yeah? Well, uh, here, driver, you can have this stuff back. Oh, thanks. John Willard? Yes, sir. Oh, keep it open. Come on, Dutton. Let's scram. We gotta find Greg before he finds anybody. Yeah. Hey, driver, you can turn around now and go back. Go back. Go back? Why? Oh, no, no. That's Greg as a killer. What I mean is, when the mood strikes him, he strikes. Well, what's that got to do with us turning back? I tell you, this man kills even without reason. Now he's got plenty of reason. He's got to get out of these mountains, but quick. If he's down the road, there are lots of ways he could stop a bus. I say, turn back. But that blizzards rival to break any minute now. We could be snowbound up here for days. And if I had to spend another, even a night, one night in that asylum, so help me, they'd have to keep me there. Oh, listen, driver, listen to me, please. Just a second, Mr. Willard. There's just one passenger. There are three. Well, let's take a vote. What about you, Miss? I... whatever you say. Mr. Keniston? All right, Terry, keep going. That settles. Hurry up, Denton. Wait a minute. What does this killer, Greg, look like? The description says a slight build, weight about 140. Dark hair, brown eyes, 27 years old. Denton, get the lead out of your britches. But you know, I still... We warned them, didn't we? Now if they meet up with him, it's their funeral. Yeah. Well, we can take care of ourselves, fellas. Well, after the guards left, I really set that bus to Roland. Out of the mirror, up above the driver's seat, I could see that the girl was plenty scared. But she had nerve, I'll say that for her. When we slid around some of those snow bank curves, her lips would be drawn so tight the lipstick had a white border. But she didn't say food. The killer, the windbag across the aisle from her, gave up trying to draw her into a conversation. And as for the third passenger, that English guy, Keniston, sitting halfway towards the back there, kept acting like a clam afraid of losing its oyster. Might as well have had lock jaw, if you get what I mean. Well, we hadn't gone more than another mile or two before the wind started to rise and kept it up until you had thought all the devils in hell were trying to break loose. The black is the inside of a tomb until the snow started to fall. But with that wind whipping it around, it didn't exactly fall. Mister, that's what I call a blizzard. This is getting on my nerves. What have we got here anyway? A collection of zombies? Somebody say something. I was just going to say... You were going to say that the weather is rough, yeah? And she can say that again. But that isn't what I was going to say. No? What then, lady? It occurred to me why the guards asked for identification. Huh? A description of Killer Gregg. Slight build, 140 pounds dark hair, brown eyes, 27 years old. So what? It's a remarkable thing. That description would fit you, Mr. Willard. Huh? And Mr. Keniston too. What's that? Me? That's a peculiar thing. Isn't it, driver? Yeah. Come to think of it, both of them could fit that description. And I've also heard that he's got a very soft face. Almost like a woman. What do you think, Mr. Keniston? I don't happen to feel like talking. Yeah? Well, personally, I think the more I think of what she said, the more remarkable it becomes. Yeah, she's got something there. Only remarkable isn't the word. What do you mean, Mr. Willard? This man Gregg may be insane, but he's not dumb. Now put yourself in his place. He knows he hasn't got a ghost of a chance making a getaway in the asylum clothing sea, so he borrows the wardrobe and identification of some stranger. Do you follow me? We're way ahead of you, Willard. It wouldn't be difficult for a killer. I should say not. But that still isn't the end of his problem, see? He's fighting against time. Yes. He's got to get out. He's got forsaken mountains down to civilization before they can throw a noose around the whole area. And he knows, he knows that if he's brought back alive, he'll be wearing a straight jacket until he's old as Methuselah. You've got quite an imagination, Willard. Yeah? Well, thanks. Now the odds that Gregg will be able to get himself transportation are mighty slim, except... except for this bus line. So let's suppose... You've got a great imagination, all right.   Really, Kenison? Well, I'll leave it to the lady here in the driver.  Huh? Well, search me. There were times, long periods of time when Jim didn't either. My husband, I mean. That was the terrible part of it. He'd be just like the old days and we'd be so happy together. And then all of a sudden, just without warning, he... Oh, I heard a lot of cases like that. Well, they tell me that sometimes it takes half a dozen of those special doctors, those... Psychiatrists? Yeah, psychiatrists. Yeah, well, sometimes they got to put a person under a microscope and study them for a long time before they can be sure one way or the other. And many is the time they make mistakes. Well, I heard it one time when... Nobody's going to talk like that about me. It's Kenison that's been acting crazy. And I'll bet it wouldn't take a half a dozen psychiatrists. What's that? An amulon! An owl! No! No! For Suspense, Roma Wines are bringing you as star Elliott Reed in Return Trip, a radio play by Maurice Zim. Roma Wines' presentation tonight in Radio's Outstanding Theatre of Thrill's Suspense. Between the acts of suspense, this is Truman Bradley for Roma Wines. Nowadays, renewing old friendships interrupted by the war is a popular American pastime. For most of us, hardly a week goes by without some friend of pre-war vintage dropping in to say hello. Well, that's one of the reasons so many Americans keep Roma California Sherry on hand always. For the golden amber radiance and tempting nut-like richness of Roma Sherry capture the very spirit of gracious hospitality. And Roma Sherry does more than welcome guests. Roma Sherry is the perfect first call to dinner. The happy, mellow, moderate wine that suits your every entertaining need. Like the other fine Roma California Dessert Wines, Roma Port, Roma Muscatel, and Roma Tokay, Roma Sherry is a true wine from just the luscious goodness of the finest grapes. Patiently guided to taste perfection by Roma winemaking skill and resources unmatched in America. That's why Roma is America's favorite wine. Why more Americans enjoy Roma than any other wine. So insist on Roma, R-O-M-A, Roma Wines, and enjoy unvarying goodness at reasonable cost always. And now Roma Wines bring back to our Hollywood Soundstage, Elliott Reed, starring with Wally Mayer as Mr. Willard, Kathy Lewis as the girl, and Raymond Lawrence as Mr. Kenniston in return trip, a tale well calculated to keep you in suspense. Well, superintendent, what do you think of the yarn so far? Let's hear the rest of it. Okay, okay. I'll get a twig of that water. Sure. The way they got me rigged up here. See now, where it was. Oh, yeah. Acts two, three, and four coming up. Well, after the avalanche struck, I just sat there gripping the steering wheel sort of stunned. There wasn't a sound except for the wind, and that was muffled by the snow barrier that passed the moon. Even on the far side, the bus was buried up to the middle of the windows. Well, all this was only a matter of seconds, and it closed. And then suddenly the quiet was broken by the most gosh-awful racket. It was as if somebody had up and given the signal for my passengers to go completely nuts. Get me out of here! Get me out of here! Look out! We're not gonna act! The act? We're gonna wait for him! Let's go of it, Willard! Let go of that act! No! That did it. He's the one. He is the one! Lucky, I saw him get that fire axe. It's what the district attorney likes to call a lethal weapon. And then some. Step back. He's coming too. Time up. You'll find a rope in the dashboard compartment. Get it for me. Driver. I'll report you for this. You will, huh? I was going to smash your window so we could get out of here. Oh, yeah? Sure. What did you think I... Oh. Oh, so that's it, huh? Here's the rope, driver. Now look here. Wait a minute. You can't do this.  I'm not killer, Greg! Maybe... Maybe he isn't. Maybe. But like that guard said, we can't take chances. If you're innocent, mister, you can prove it to the authority.  Just the same.  Hey, missy. You feeling all right? No. I'm not crazy, driver. But I guess I was a little. Actually, there's no proof that killer Greg is on this bus. Well, if you put it that way... I'll tell my fault, and I'm sorry. My only excuse is that I was just so upset by seeing Jim. My husband... Well, I still say that... No, no, no. Now we've got to start acting like rational human beings. Let poor Mr. Willard up on the floor. Thanks, lady. All right. When I'm warning you, Willard, no funny stuff. Oh, snap out of it, driver, will you? We've got to get out of this mess. Hand me that axe. Do I look that dumb? Oh, all right, all right. Then use it yourself. Smash your window so we can crawl out. Willard, even you don't look that dumb. What makes you think the windows won't open? Huh? Then open one. What for? To let in the blizzard? But we've got to get out of here, driver. Not me. It would take a bear to make even a city block in that windswept hell. Well, we can't stay here. Why not? We're not freezing yet. The driver's right. Our best chance is to sit pat until the storm lets up. Yeah, but what if it doesn't, huh? What if it lasts longer than we do? What then?  Oh, and your top won't do any good, Willard. Nobody's ever confused me with Pollyanna. But things could be worse. This is as good an igloo as any, and if and when the weather clears, well, we can send out a party for help. Well, maybe a road clearing crew will come to our rescue. Yes. Yes, I suppose that's the same thing to do. Wait here. How about you, Willard? You also decided to do the same thing? I don't like that crack. You want more like it? Look, we're not starting that again. Now, it's going to be a long night, and we might just as well make ourselves comfortable and try to get some sleep. Ha! We cut it out. Now, Miss, you take the backseat. It's the only one that runs the full width of the bus. You can use your laprobe for a quilt. All right, driver. I want to apologize again to everyone for the way I behaved. I'm casting suspicion. Forget it. Need any help? No.  Please believe that I did... Wait. What's the matter? Why are you staring at the floor? Well, say something. Look. Look. A file, a tiny steel file. The one that Greg... After the avalanche hit, there was a mad scramble. One of you lost it then. One of you is, Greg. Kill her, Greg. Let me out of here. Let me out! Well, we just let her wear herself out, kicking and banging on the door. Nobody said a word. Willard and Keniston just stared at me and at each other. By and by, the girl stopped her fussing. And then she stood and stared at the three of us in rotation. It would have made her flesh crawl. Outside, the blizzard was getting worse, if possible. Finally, I reached into the watch pocket of my pants and brought out the old timepiece. What? What time is it, driver? I broke the crystal. It still says a quarter of four. It's 5.30. Only an hour and a half since we started off. An hour and a half. 5.30 in the afternoon. The very best we're stuck until morning. 14. 16 hours. Might as well be forever. Look, miss, we just got to make the best of it. I still think you ought to go back to the rear seat. Can't sleep? If you can. Willard, the driver and myself will be keeping a rather close eye on each other. In the light of recent developments, you'll be all right. Here, driver, give me that axe. Huh? Let her have it for a protection. Sure. Sure, let her have it. Yes. Yes, give it to me. Okay. You holding on to the file, too? Of course she is. The file could also be a lethal weapon. Well, she took the axe and the file back to the rear seat with her and we all sat down to wait. Those were the longest seconds of the longest minutes of the longest hours that ever... Well, somehow it got to be 9 o'clock, 10, 11, finally it was midnight. Ever fought against sleep with the cold numbing you and the wind lulling you? Sometimes even the fear of sudden death can't win against those odds. Time and again, the girl's eyes would close just for a second and then they stayed closed longer and her head nodded and her body slumped over against the corner of the seat. I got up and started down the aisle. Where are you going? Shh, Keniston. Can't you see she's asleep? Where are you going? Her laprobes slipped to the floor. I was gonna pick it up and cover her so she wouldn't freeze. Any objections? I'll do it. I know you won't. See, Keniston? Willard thinks I should do it. That makes it 2 to 1. Help me! Help me with this wild cat life! It was like a devil on a pinwheel. And I was lucky to tear loose before she did any more than nick me about the face. Afterwards, when Willard told her what I was up to, she apologized. But I didn't go near her again all the rest of that night. Well, about five o'clock, the blizzard stopped. And at seven, the sun managed to break through. Then we held a council of war. We can't send out for help. Why not? Don't you see, Mr. Willard? If we split up the men, whichever of you is gray, would have too good an opportunity. Whether he goes or stays. You could go alone. I'd never make it. We could all go together. How about that, driver? Well, I'd rather stick with a bus, Keniston.  We got a window open on the far side of the bus and crawled through the girl first. She was still clutching the ax in the file. Come here and look! What? Another few yards and we'd have escaped the avalanche entirely. We can shovel our way out. I'm sure we can. There were two shovels in the tool compartment at the tail guard of the bus. That only let two men shovel at a time. There was a third man getting a breather, meanwhile. It took a lot of shoveling. What's the matter, driver? Hurt your hand? Oh, nothing much. This feels good to take off those stiff leather gloves. Nasty. This is your gut on that right hand. Thumb and fingers. Keniston, are you shoveling or talking? We'll never get out of here at this rate. It's your turn anyway. I'm tired. Not as tired as Willard looks. I'll relieve him. No. No, that's all right. I can keep going yet for a while. Okay, then. Keniston, here. Let me take a turn. I know I won't be much help, but I can at least try. No, no, no. You're mountain guard. Though I'm sure you could do as well as Keniston. Keniston! Where's Keniston? Oh, he's right. Stop him! Keniston was making a mad dash through the snow. Willard dropped his shovel and tore after him. I yelled for Willard to let him go, but I don't think he even heard me. For a while, it looked like Keniston was going to make it. But then he floundered and fell in a snowdrift. And before he could get underway again, Willard knelt. No! No! No! I'll just stay put for a while. What'd you do? Knock him out? What else was there to do? I know all the time it was Keniston. You think his running away proves it? It's the same as if he confessed. He knows it was his last and only chance. What are we going to do with him now? Tie him up. Then we're getting him in the bus out of here. Say, say, I wonder, I wonder if there's a reward. No time at all, we had the bus clear and headed for civilization. Those snow-covered mountain roads weren't exactly my idea of a speedway, but I gave my motor the gun. Willard and the girl didn't take their eyes off Keniston. I kept watching him, too, out of the mirror over the driver's seat. He looks like he's coming, too. Don't worry, driver. Those knots I made in the rope won't give. Besides, I'm keeping the axe handy just in case. He's opening his eyes. Watch him now. Watch him. Yes, watch me. And listen to me, too.  I'll stop this bus and put you out for good. Not before I've had my say. Willard and you, too, lady. Why do you think I tried to make a break for it? Because you were... You're killer, Greg. You fools.  Was it my watch that had his crystal smashed at the quarter of the four yesterday afternoon? So it was mine. So what? At a quarter of the four yesterday afternoon, killer Greg waylaid the real driver this bus and took his place. What? That's how the crystal came to be broken.  You can't talk your way out of this. It could be a coincidence. Sure, sure. I thought, too, coincidence. Until I noticed the blisters on the thumb and first two fingers of the right hand. A file would make blisters like that. A file held in the right hand of killer Greg. Look at him. Look at him. It's true. Greg. Greg. Don't come a step closer, any of you. You make the slightest move and I'll crash the whole lot of us. Don't do it, Greg. Stop the bus. We won't do anything. It was a perfect plan. It had to work. If only that avalanche hadn't come along. But I'll still make it. I'll make it even if I have... Look out! Don't turn! Over and over and over. The bus and the glass all smashed. Everybody was all mangled and... All right, all right. Go to sleep now. Sleep? Who can go to sleep? Who can go to sleep? Anyway, I outlived those three killer Greg. Hahaha! Suspense. Presented by Roma Wines, R-O-M-A made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. This is Truman Bradley for Roma Wines. 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Produced by William Spear for the Roma Wine Company of Fresno, California. This is CBS The Columbia Broadcasting System.