Welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and I am extremely excited today to be joined by John Sheridan. He is the man who is the expert on Gretch. John, how are you? Hey Bart, man, I'm doing well. Awesome, awesome. Well, this is gonna be really cool because Gretch is one of those companies that has just always been at the forefront of drum technology and pushing things forward and I mean they are a classic brand that I know very little about and I'm excited to learn more about it.  That is unbelievable. And they still have their own teeth. Yeah, exactly. They still, they got a lot of teeth. Yeah. So I think we should just go ahead and start with the beginning of the history because we got a long history here for this company so why don't you just take it away and start at the beginning? Okay, well the company was founded by Frederick Gretch and he was born in 1856 in Mannheim, Germany. It came to America at the age of 16 which would be 1872 and Frederick opened his own shop in 1883 on Middleton Street in Brooklyn which is the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn which is the part of Brooklyn. I mean it's right on the east river and it faces the lower east side but he opened his own shop in 1883 and the focus at that time was building drums, banjos, and tambourines, basically anything with a head because what he would do is that he would buy the skins from local these slaughterhouses and it would tan them on the roof, the building and he was very hands-on. I mean he had people that were working for him. He did have a small crew but within a decade or so he was definitely making inroads in growing the business but unfortunately on April 28th of 1895 he died of cholera at the age of 39 during a trip to his native Germany which is unfortunate for the family but his eldest son Frederick Sr who was only 15 at the time and still in Knickers, he basically took over the company and with the help of his mother Rosa helped keep things afloat. They just kept it going. By 1916 they had to expand the business into a 10-story building that's 60 Broadway and in Brooklyn that they had built because by the turn of the century they were the largest musical seller in the country. I mean they were just killing it because they were also doing a lot of importing and exporting but there were a lot of brands from overseas. They were kind of like a jobber also at that time. They were just kind of like just a big distributor and so they were able to service a lot of dealers I guess back then or small music shops. I mean back then I mean it was like it's horse and buggy you know. Yeah really Amazon didn't exist at that point. Yeah right I mean and cars were not really in wide use as of yet either so it was really you know so you just kind of imagine I mean these are these are the old days. Yeah well okay so 1916 just to clarify we're in Brooklyn we just moved to the 10-story building at 60 Broadway. Are we primarily I know you said we're distributing from importing goods are we doing mainly drums now and tambourines still or have they expanded into okay so it's prime. So Gretch is drums from the beginning. Oh yeah sure. Yeah cool. Yeah and but they like I said they were they were carrying like a lot of other instruments you know from other you know from other like smaller companies and distributing them. I mean like even photograph needles and things like that you know they just like all kinds of things you know so Wow who was their competition at that point. Well I mean as far as you know I mean Ludwig was still in their infancy I mean they were they started in 1909 and their big thing was the drum pedal but I know that they quickly advanced into other things you know but I'm not I'm not the Ludwig expert. Sure no yeah. You know and I believe it's going to be later. Well I know that Rogers started in 1849 but but I think primarily they were making drum heads you know yeah pretty much the same way Gretch was making drum heads but I do believe that later on I think maybe by the 30s I mean I'm not absolutely sure about this but I've heard they were supplying drum shells to Gretch was supplying drum shells to Rogers. Interesting okay. Yeah so that's I mean I can't prove that. Sure yeah I've heard so that's cool. You know food for thought whatever. Yeah no it's interesting to just kind of put it in perspective to see what's going on and I mean no one was ever alone in this in the endeavor to be the biggest you know drum companies out there but right right so yeah yeah but I mean like and at this point like the the drum set I mean was you know like in its infancy too I mean it's oh yeah like that kind of happened a bit later you know but I mean you know drums were being made of course I mean these bass drums the snare drums of course yeah like in 1918 Fred Gretch Sr. he develops you know the revolutionary multiply drum lamination process which resulted in the creation of the world's first war-free drum hoop. Wow okay. And then and then by by 1927 they introduced the the industry's first multiply drum shell so that was kind of a big deal because traditionally you know drum shells were you know they take a solid piece of wood steam bended into a circle and then glue reinforcement rings inside the top and bottom so it would maintain its shape you know but but but they actually came up with staggered plies in 1927 which is pretty much the way just about every drum company you know makes drum shells now. Yeah and that's so they guaranteed I remember seeing some catalogs where they guarantee that the drum will not warp and I guess at that point in time for you to guarantee something to not happen means that that's happening a lot to a lot of drummers so that's like hey if I buy this and I invest in this drum it's not gonna go warping on me and the heads won't fit so that had to be a huge deal when that when that came about. Yeah and the thing is that sometimes when you know drums are like drum shells are rolled you know in the traditional sense very often there's a flat spot and it's not totally around and so that can cause problems and it's also been a been a belief by by some people that having reinforcement rings inside the shell that it can actually distort the tone of the shell and then also it also naturally raises the pitch you know the the fundamental pitch of the shell. They know all this and it seems like they were kind of ahead of their time with the actual technology involved in creating what was you know what would become kind of the standardized drum.  I know that for the round badges I know that they had at least two different sources that they were getting those from you know. Yeah that makes sense so we should note that on the Gretch website it says in 1920 they are recognized as the largest musical instrument manufacturer in the US. Yes so they got to be doing something right and to have to be churning out that much that many instruments you're going to need a little help getting like the metal parts and all that but that's that's pretty huge to be from 1883 to 1920 to become the US's largest manufacturer is pretty huge. Yeah that's not even 40 years. No exactly cool so so we're in 1920 then let's let's keep moving forward here so I'm seeing that in 1927 which is obviously a huge year kind of jumping around here for that's the switch of trap drummers and the silent movie stuff to get into talking movies so that changes kind of the dynamic just across the the whole industry. Absolutely that very much changes things you know and in the 30s that's when you know by then well also keep in mind that Gretch was also making banjos and stuff like that because banjos were really hot especially in the 20s.  Yeah exactly to stay alive so with the banjo then they're obviously competing with Slingerland who was kind of famous for making banjos at first so yeah sure you're never you're never alone just making making a product you always have competition. Oh yeah yeah well and banjos were just like incredibly hot during the 20s I mean you know it was like the 20s was just like that was you know they called the roaring 20s for a good reason you know because they really did roar and you know it was before prohibition and all that I mean it was wild you know and flappers and the whole thing and you know the Depression hit and that's kind of all over but by the early 30s that's also when Gretch started building guitars and there were acoustic models at first and then they didn't start getting into electrics until you know a bit later you know certainly by like I guess you know late 40s or so you know the drums were you know were always the mainstay of the company and and and all that you know just continued to to progress. Yeah I didn't go into this I didn't know because I say it from time to time that like going into these episodes I am not an expert on Gretch I don't know much about it until we actually talk and then I learn and everyone's kind of learning together but I didn't know if drums were first I didn't know if guitar was first um so it's really no no no drums drums were yeah I love that like practically from the first day I mean you know there's always been drums I mean going way back yeah exactly so 1935 Gretch introduces the broadcaster series of drums now is this this would be considered kind of their flagship famous drum line yeah yeah it uh yeah I mean it's it's broadcast here and I guess they they spelled it with a K just to be different yeah uh so um you know you gotta call it something so I guess and you know broadcasting you know I mean radio is really big at the day and radio broadcasts I guess that's where that came from so yeah uh the the broadcaster line uh and throughout the decades uh Gretch did uh re reintroduce that name uh a number of times and even today as I think about 2015 or 14 actually like 2014 going into 15 they came out with a a new broadcaster line which is a three ply uh drum shell versus the six ply that uh they started making them in the very late 50s but you know we can get into that you know the road and um not super important but at this point logo wise we have the the older Gretch logo that has the extended T going over the curved Gretch correct just to kind of throw in all the information yeah the oh you mean the badge the badge yeah yeah right exactly okay yeah because on other instruments in literature there's a straight version of that um they weren't using that on the guitars yet but the um but on other literature um uh they uh they were referred to that as the T roof logo got sure um which so that the the top portion of the T would act as like a roof over most of the other letters and it was just a very stylized way of uh you know making the Gretch name prominent and uh definitely cool so yeah uh but they rounded it off when they when they started making the badge and that's and that's also around the time that the that the the Gretch badge the round badge that we all know and love the 30s is really like when that badge first came into being because before that they um I mean they did have other badges uh but they were kind of like you know more I don't know I guess more non-descript um you know um they were either like plates or in some cases it was just a simple little decal you know um so uh but uh yeah the the uh yeah and when it comes to Gretch badges I mean that's certainly like a whole other thing in terms of uh like in the in the book that the Gretch drum book that Rob Cook and and I put together uh I mean we have like the whole chronology of badges um you know and the fact I'm looking at it right now and uh and in some cases they were just like decals you know that's funny yeah early on they were just mounted on but the um uh but yeah they did have uh you know like there there was this kind of unusual uh you know square badge that said Gretch American USA and so forth uh but uh but the round badge that we all know it's I mean it was certainly in use by the 30s we're entering a pretty tricky time in America the Great Depression we are approaching we if not in World War II at this point um and I know that Gretch is also coming up on an ownership change which I want to just say up front to people if you keep hearing Fred Gretch over a hundred year span you're not going crazy there are multiple Fred Gretches and yeah well it's it's it's it's it's pretty easy to keep straight actually I mean like when I first before I knew I was very confused too yeah exactly because because the first thing I'm thinking well how old is this guy exactly that's what I thought came Fred Gretch I mean it's like you know can't can't be you know no so uh no but uh I mean there was the original Frederick Gretch who came from Germany and and he's the guy that started you know the Gretch company in 1883 and then uh there's his son Fred Gretch uh senior yep and he's the gentleman that took over his dad's company after his dad passed away and he's running it up until this point that we're talking about which is kind of where we we then switch to another Fred uh yeah yeah then there's uh his son Fred Gretch junior and uh and Fred uh yeah Fred Gretch junior he comes in in 1942 you know to uh to become company president uh but of course he wants the attack on Pearl Harbor happens and that drives the U.S. into World War II and of course I mean people were very patriotic back then and um you got to defend your country and what you believe in so um he joined the navy and uh I believe he quickly rose to the rank of commander so wow uh he um you know so he uh he went off to war and then Fred Junior's brother Bill or William Gretch he uh takes over the company while uh well well Fred Junior is at war and uh and Bill Gretch is the father of today's Fred Gretch Fred W. Gretch okay that's interesting I didn't know that is yeah yeah yeah Fred uh and and unfortunately uh you know uh Bill Gretch Fred W. Gretch's father um he died in in 1948 and I think Fred W was only like two when his dad died. Gotcha. Which is sad you know but um so then during World War II like most of these companies which um I actually talked to Joe Mechler all about in episode two is the World War II era drums which Gretch was obviously involved in with the metal rationing. Sure. So they did all that which if you want to hear more about that stuff then I recommend checking out episode two. I can give you a little anecdote that you probably won't be anywhere else. Yeah love it. The um Bill Hagner who was um uh he worked for Gretch in Brooklyn starting in 1941 uh as a foreman he's still alive. Wow. He's uh he lives in Florida and I think he's in the 90s now. He told a story about during the war that uh they actually just to keep the shop going uh that one of the things that they that they did was they uh they built um uh waste paper baskets. Really? Like they take like a nine by 13 drum shell. Oh my God. Put a bottom on it. That's amazing. But but actually uh I just remember there is something else that they did during the war uh they they did manufacture stuff for the war effort. They they also built gas masks. Oh wow okay. Like you know those long elephant trunk looking things. Yeah real scary looking now that. Yeah right yeah and uh and and the thing is like that those those hoses are kind of like reinforced and because you know Gretch could build you know drum hoops like they would like those hoses were like reinforced with like these little like little drum hoops. Wow that's amazing. Build because because they had and they were made out you know and and you know so like anything made out of wood you know because they couldn't because they could only use 10% by content metal you know so um they could use for a little metal in there from anything that they made unless it was for the war effort because that's why yep they were conserving metal so they could build bombs and tanks and stuff like that so but yeah they they uh but I know that one of the things that they that they built for the war effort were were gas masks. That's wild. I know um I think uh Joe was saying that Rogers was making like the instruments that would be in like planes like the gauges and all that stuff so it's it's that's really cool drum history to kind of hear about uh what what they were doing. The waste baskets thing is just crazy. Now is that that wasn't like a we're making waste baskets for the war effort? That was just we literally we need to keep the lights on and sell something. Exactly exactly it was just something that they could that they could make exactly to kind of keep the keep the lights on. I mean I'm sure there are other like things novelties or what's on them. Yeah the novel idea for a drum company but um but it's you know but every office needs a waste paper basket. Okay you know people got people got garbage yeah that's amazing cool all right so we go through World War II what was the uh I completely forget what is the they they had though a a war outfit of drums right like what was their um I know there's the the rolling bomber what was Gretch what was theirs called? Oh that's right uh the Defender the Defender cool yeah they had some cool names yeah 1942 1946 uh World War II era drums with wooden lugs because the war production board had ruled that no more than 10% of the weight of war era drums could be made of critical materials i.e. metal. So then we get through World War II um I see something noted here that says in 1946 they produced the first uh production double bass drum for Louis Belson for Louis Belson yeah that's pretty cool yeah that's yep yep yeah the um story was was that uh Louis went to uh bold drum manufacturers you know uh one by one as he was being turned down I mean the drum set as we know it and as it was known back then um when you think about it's still a pretty modern contraption uh or fairly new rather I mean it was something that uh I mean wasn't around that long back then you know maybe a couple of decades so um so when he came up with this idea and these plans to build this double bass kit I mean all the other companies looked like it looked at him like he had two heads and you know just said no we're not gonna do that yeah no one's gonna buy that yeah yeah right you know so um so then when he brought it to Gretch they said well why not yeah do that the thing is if you've ever seen um I mean they built him a number of double bass drum kits throughout the 40s and 50s but if you look at the very first one that they built for him I mean not only are they is it a double bass drum kit they're what would be known in the 1980s as as power depth you know I mean they're huge you know they're they're they're not just big around I mean you know they're they're very deep you know yeah and uh and they were they're the first company to do that you know and then he had this huge uh what looks like a cocktail drum like this very long tall floor yeah we know all the other times that's wild you know yeah and the other times are also kind of unusual sizes yeah and they go in a weird order they go kind of like they sort of start small on the left and then go a little bigger and then you got your mega floor tom and then they kind of yeah go back down in size so he's obviously a very revolutionary guy um oh yeah sure and he's interesting with getting his start in the gene group a jump drum competition and all that really cool stuff but that's again another uh and and he and he was like an absolute gentleman I met him once um at Joe Cassattus's modern drum shop in New York I used to go there fairly often and um and I was there one day talking to Joe Cassattus and Louis Belson walks in with uh his manager and he had just purchased a cymbal and he would just wanted the cluster of rivets installed yeah and so there's nobody else in the store so they go off and start drilling the cymbal and put the rivets in and there's nobody there except for him and me you know so um so I introduce myself and say how much I've always admired him and and I can't tell you like how nice he was I mean but not just how nice he was but like from head to toe he was perfect really I mean his his hair was like perfectly clothed and like his his skin but the the clothes he was wearing was wearing this beautiful suit with uh uh uh what do you call it a camel uh you know that kind of light brown yeah you know top coat yeah you know and and and it and he was just like his shoes you know like shined perfectly I mean like I mean like he was he was meticulous I mean and he was so pleasant and he was so without sounding pretentious or yeah or uh or pompous or any none of that I mean just a but he was just a perfect gentleman I mean like uh just just an amazing guy but yeah but he was he was the first guy with a with a with a double double kick and uh and Gretch was the only company that would build it for him wow what a cool story because you know you always you never want to hear that a drummer's a a jerk and uh I don't think I need to say the name of who I'm thinking of uh who is a amazing drummer but gets a little bit of a bad reputation um oh yeah well I I I realized that uh I mean I'm I'm always reminded of uh of the John Lennon quote which is uh meeting your heroes is usually pretty disappointing um not having anything to do with Gretch but just uh just as an aside uh I've known Hal Blaine yeah since uh I mean I've known him for over 30 years and uh he's another guy that is just like the nicest the nicest guy in the world he just had a birthday yeah he just turned 90 on February 5th and I was invited to go but I just couldn't get away um at the baked potato in uh in North Hollywood um you know I I I I hope it went well every little person you meet that that spreads like a kind of a ripple and they tell two people and they tell two people and so that's good to hear oh yeah yeah sure exactly so we are approaching what would be considered um the golden era of uh of Gretch um which I'm sure there's multiple but um kind of before we get there I know in 48 Bill passes away right Fred W's dad Fred W's dad so then Fred Gretch Jr Bill's brother Fred Gretch Jr went off to war gave Bill the company he resumes he goes back to being in charge correct right okay cool so then um so he's in charge when we're entering the 1950s here now am I skipping anything or am I uh no well um well by 1950 1949 1950 uh that's when uh Gretch hardware starts to change uh like now you're we're getting into the uh the streamliner lugs okay you know versus the um the rocket rugs lugs that uh Gretch was using up to that point Phil Grant who I think is a guy that we haven't mentioned yet um Phil was uh what Jimmy Webster was to Gretch guitars that's what Phil Grant was to Gretch drums you know he was the drum guy you know he um he was the guy that uh that was very much involved with uh uh you know the uh the endorsers and uh and the products and stuff like that so he was that was kind of like really his his thing and uh and he was the guy that that um because if you've ever seen any of those old uh Gretch drums with the rocket lugs you know they're nickel plated and you know the they're you know I mean I know that there are some guys out there who say oh yeah those are awesome looking you know but he felt that that the hardware should look nicer that it should be chrome plated in his words that the drum should have more dignity you know that's a good way to put it it's a very it's a very classy era yeah oh yeah like you know just like you know and uh and that's when you know Gretch drums really start to look like the Gretch drums that we know and love you know so that kind of transitions into the the era where people are I feel like the plane style even changes people are getting a little uh not heavier I mean you're just you're playing more your uh things are being amplified where you need to be a little bit louder then and you're playing a little bit harder and the gear needs to be able to handle that oh yeah sure sure oh also I should mention also around this time is um Gretch was the first company to make the 20 inch bass drum really you know cool uh yeah javie tough uh he was the guy that um that wanted a smaller bass drum because you know if you've ever played uh drums in a city like New York or Chicago or wherever and you're dealing with cabs and stairs and stuff like that and back then you know bass drums were enormous they were 24 26 inches whatever and diameter and it's like you know they wouldn't sit in the the trunk of a cab you know like even back then when cabs were like trucks you know I mean it it's it's like drums were just so ridiculously enormous drums don't have to be big to sound big no exactly yeah because because like you know even even an 18 inch bass drum or in davie tough's case a 20 inch bass drum I mean the 18 came later but the the 20 inch bass drum I mean that was revolutionary you know but I mean the 20 inch bass drum is still a good size I mean that's you know you know like you you should be able to do the job with a 20 you know it's super common today I mean a lot of people use 20s but back then it was like you know nobody played a bass drum that's small you know but but that was kind of like the beginning of like Gretch being known for like like putting together smaller drum kits you know the bebop kind of sizes yeah right exactly you know then it wasn't too long afterwards that's that a nine by 13 eight by 12 instead of 16 by 16 floor times 14 by 14 and then by the early 50s you know max roach you know had his own signature snare drum with Gretch which was a four by 14 and uh you know which is basically a piccolo snare drum you know and there were like a few others I mean I know that WFL made a buddy rich uh three by 13 snare which which is pretty cool looks like a flying saucer you know very progressive though for that era obviously oh yeah sure yeah yeah in fact a few years uh when they stopped calling it the max roach uh signature snare drum they they started calling it the progressive jazz snare drum well there you go you know so there you go like from from from your mouth to yeah to the Gretch catalog exactly that's that's the way it goes jump jump in around a little bit what is the involvement of the fred gretch company with zilgen because I I did a a whole history on zilgen that I I didn't release and I haven't done anything with it yet but there is I can't remember if it's a or k or what they owned the rights to it but it was it was it was k um let me just uh because I know that it was in uh in 1926 okay yeah in the summer of 1926 the company acquired all rights to the k zilgen symbol company now if and if you know anything about zilgen you know that they didn't move from turkey to america until 1929 yeah very interesting and then that's a whole thing and then they would release them as a and then yeah that's a whole fascinating uh thing and there's actually court documents that you can find of them suing each other trying to get the or zilgen suing gretch trying to get the rights back um for years yeah oh yeah sure you know um yeah uh in in the book that um that rob and i've wrote i mean uh there is a section uh that that's covered you know about the the whole because because it's a lot of people it is uh it is very very uh very confusing it was extremely confusing just getting that in people's minds that that uh gretch controlled the american distribution rights uh for zilgen back way back so um okay well we can spend hours on this so let's try and push forward here um all right so we're we're in the 50s so we got max roach in 1950 i'm clicking along here we got night and then uh max roach 50 art leaky comes on in 1954 so they have they're in the the public eye as being this kind of uh progressive again progressive jazz drumming kind of world which is obviously a very rock and roll wasn't exactly sweeping the nation quite yet no 60s we get we get we're going through the 60s tony williams comes on obviously with his uh very famous yellow gretch drum set that everyone knows um relationship with birdland studios is happening in uh yeah yeah sure sure yeah sure i think that the yellow um tony williams kid i think that came later oh but but as a kid he started playing gretch drums like in 1959 when he was like 15 years old really okay so yeah yeah so uh he was he was uh i mean i don't know if he was an official endorser then but i know that he started playing them uh and uh i actually have some original gretch drumhead boxes with the drumhead still in them from the 60s that mentions tony williams as an endorser only back then he was called anthony williams wow you know that's funny it's just funny to see that you know yeah yeah um all right so then 1967 we enter you mentioned it before um fred gretch jr retires and uh then so he he sells to baldwin which is the first major sale of the uh of the company yeah well at that time uh well in the 60s well the thing is is that let's not forget the beetles the beetles absolutely revolutionize the mi business there's you can't possibly underestimate when you spoke to bill uh bill ludwig the third yep about ludwig the phones were ringing off the hook the next day after they appear on the cell of it yeah well with gretch george harrison but a gretch country gentleman guitar and it was the same thing that's amazing because the thing is is that these companies you know when they order supplies like lumber and stuff that they need to build their instruments they base their orders on the previous year look say let's say in the case of a drum company well last year we ordered like these many rims and these many lugs and so forth and so on and you know with guitar parts it's the same thing you order this much lumber and tuning pegs and pickups and so forth and you forecast what you think you're going to do in the following year yeah so you know the beetles happen and nobody sees this coming you know and it's and and all of a sudden everything just goes topsy and um you know so so for gretch i mean you know they had country gentlemen's in stock but after the beetles appear on that cell of him they were very soon at a stock and then the country gentlemen's i mean i heard that you know they were back ordered for two years but that kind of sounds like an exaggeration but yeah but one thing that i know that isn't is uh dan duffy uh is a guy that i know that worked for gretch back in the day uh and um when he was on the guitar side and he said that before the beetles appeared on that cell of him in 1964 prior to that we were building 17 maybe 20 guitars a day but after that we were building 75 to 100 guitars a day wow yeah man if you think of so you figure what was going on with the guitars i mean it was probably this the drum manufacturing was probably augmented in the same way and the thing is is that not everybody was like kind of you know brand oriented yeah i think um i think that there were a lot of people that just wanted a drum set yeah i want to be a drummer or an electric guitar or something that they could afford you know yeah so and because like the the uh the interview you did with the mij drums you know to manage japan yep i mean that stuff just took off because exactly you could buy a japanese made drum set for you know a fraction of what you pay for a us made kit you know so so then that explosion happens it's then interesting to me that why did grech sell to baldwin in 67 what was the the well yeah um well what well what was going on the other trend that was happening was that all these big corporations were taking notice of these little mom and pop musical instrument companies like leo fender and and fred grech and uh and joseph rogers and they were they were saying like well there's a lot of money in in now there is yeah in musical instruments um so we had all these big corporations buying these companies i mean in 1965 cbs bought fender they bought fender for um for 15 million dollars now two years earlier cbs bought the new york yankees for 13 million dollars oh wow that kind of puts it in perspective yeah i mean that that shows you like what kind of money there was to be made at the time yeah you know when when this is going on so baldwin 67 to 85 um kind of jumping ahead here for for time's sake are they did quality dip or was it what did it remain pretty consistent well after baldwin uh bought grech uh for four million dollars um what happened was um they decided to move manufacturing from brooklyn to boonville arkansas as baldwin owned a banjo factory in boonville arkansas it was really like a converted barn and so they moved everything by rail in the summer of 69 and they and they the reason why they moved it in the summer is because a lot of people go on vacation you know retail slow you know people go away not many people are buying musical instruments that's on a year so they figured well that's a good time to to make the move so yeah so they they they they moved everything and they got bill hagner um to uh to set up the the factory in in boonville and um and you know and hire people off the small towns and farms and the immediate area and treat and teach them craftsmanship and all that but you know it takes a while to get good at building that stuff and oh yeah there was certainly a dip in the uh uh i don't hear too many people complaining about the drums from that era um uh hear mostly about the guitars you know uh from that era not to say that everything was bad back then you know but um yeah but it changed a little bit it it did you know and um and it's sort of like you know what happens when one company buys another you know it's like well well we got to pay off this note so um how can we make it cheaper and charge more money for it you know exactly you know to help pay off the note so um although actually in the case of gretz it's probably not true because uh because i was told by uh by uh by fred gretz that um that Baldwin uh paid cash oh boy for gretz you know so uh they yeah so uh i guess they didn't have a note to pay but that doesn't mean that other companies like you know when norland bought gibson or avnet bought gilder you know but that was a trend that was definitely going on in the 60s these corporations were buying up these small music companies these family on music companies now very uh similar to the ludwig story there is a triumphant return of the gretz family to the ownership so fred w gretz son of bill who is the son of the original uh of fred senior correct um yeah he gets the company back in the family in 1985 yeah he um let me just practice it with a little story um in 1967 when fred w gretz was 21 years old his uncle fred gretz jr took him out to peter lugers which is a stakehouse right down the street which has been there since 1887 the gretz family still has a table there every every year for my birthday i go there instead of the gretz table nice that's awesome so anyway but um the thing is is that uh but he took he took young fred out to lunch and said i've sold the company you know to baldwin and and young fred says uh yeah but i i wanted to own it of course and uh and he said yeah well well baldwin paid cash for it and uh and says we're gonna be working for baldwin from now on but fred w swore that day that he would that he would one day be able to get the company back you know into family ownership which he did took him took him 17 years but he did it because every time uh he approached baldwin the answer was always no but the the ironic thing is what happened baldwin by that time had gotten into investments they became the enron of their day oh really so they had to pay off the bank i mean the bank was calling baldwin you know they were calling in the loan they weren't calling just to say hi you know they were give me my money exactly so so basically um they had to sell everything off in order to pay off their debt and duke kramer who uh who had been with gretz since 1935 uh i mean he had retired a few years earlier but by this time he caught wind about this and contacted fred w and he set up a meeting fred officially bought the company back i believe in november of 84 and then announced it to the world on uh january 1st of 85 that uh the company was now family owned again now do you know what he uh do we do we know what he paid for the company uh i didn't ask and i wasn't told well it's it's good it's back in in family hands and i'm sure it's uh it's whatever it was it's it's worth getting it back so all right so then we're we're kind of getting in the modern times here and i think we should kind of bring it on home and i know there's um k m c music they become uh distributor worldwide yeah they they become the distributor uh for gretz drums in 2000 it's basically a licensing deal you know where they're uh they don't own the name but you know they they take care of the day to day the the distribution yeah store service and all that stuff yeah it's just sort of like a like a sales force for hire you know kind of like a broker yeah command at that time was really you know huge and they were very good at at percussion you know because they owned lp yeah to gralter hardware and so forth and so they you know cb and all that stuff so you know they they had it together and and also they had great connections uh overseas you know with manufacturers you know to introduce more affordable import lines of gretz drums and so forth and uh you know that's when that happened and actually a couple years later uh fred did the same thing with uh fender same thing the licensing deal yeah for the guitars you know so and the funny thing is is that um so in 2000 fred does a distribution deal with command for the drums and then 2002 2003 does the same thing with fender for the guitars and then in 2007 the end of 2007 fender buys command for $170 million in cash my god wow so the funny thing is is that there's nobody could have foreseen this but by the end of 2007 gretz drums and gretz guitars are under the fender umbrella because now they own command which distributes gretz drums yeah so it's just an interesting thing so from from that 2000 2007 these these acquisitions there's different lines coming out but i think um which is a whole thing but i think keeping it on track here 2015 dw they come into the into the picture okay yeah um actually it was December 23rd 2014 that the deal is done but i could tell you what led up to that yeah please do okay uh in 2000 2014 a company called texas pacific group buys fender and the first thing that texas pacific group decides is let's dump kmc interesting so they try to sell kmc for $50 million now keep in mind that fender bought kmc for $117 million yeah that's a quite a lot but that but that but that wasn't texas pacific groups money that was fenders money yeah so they don't care yeah so let's just unload it for 50 million get rid of it and move on but there's no takers no but not even for 50 million dollars does anybody want to buy kmc so um from what i heard what happens at this point when there's they just can't sell it dw races their hand and they say well we're interested in the drum brands yeah so and that includes exclusive distribution of gretz drums uh ownership of gibraltar latin percussion uh what is it percussion plus or pro percussion whatever it's called yeah um and uh cat electronic drums and cd drums and you know a few other lesser brands uh that kmc owned uh and and again i don't know i wasn't told it in esk yeah i don't know what dw got it for yeah and then what was left of kmc went to a company in canada another musical uh distributor in canada called jam industries but kmc still exist today and they still function as they always have they've taken on a lot a lot of other new brands to kind of recover from from the losses yeah they're they're very nice people at kmc i know those those people very well and they're they're terrific people well and then my my only question um moving with the dw thing would be what is the role of fred w gretz and compared to is he still he still owns the name gretz yes absolutely yeah absolutely i mean and that's the way it's always been the matter whether it was kmc or fender you know uh it's or how Leonard you know yeah because uh how Leonard as of uh mid 2017 they took on a gretz import drums which is renowned cattle in a club cattle in a maple and energy they they took on you know all the gretz import lines as well as Gibraltar hardware and cat electronic drums and uh you know all the former brands that uh that kmc had well and the the Catalina line itself is is just inexpensive drums but they are amazing i mean i i owned a practice little extra kit of a Catalina mod kit i got when i was teaching at sam ash and i um had a good deal on it it was awesome it had a really cool unique bass drum size and for the price i paid like 300 they are great inexpensive drums obviously they have all price ranges of drums but um i love the thing oh yeah sure well it's they have a they have a price point for you know for every budget i'll let you in on something this book that uh that rob cook and i did you know the gretz drum book which came out in 2013 which pretty much has all the information you'd ever want to know about gretz at least up to 2013 when it came out yeah um it you know what the hardest part for me of of of of doing that book was what the time that kmc owned it really because so many things came and went so quickly including drum lines and sizes and colors and you know it's like there were more changes in the 14 years that kmc uh distributed gretz than all the changes that gretz went through in the 20th century i mean hysterical wow you know 2000 to 2014 that's amazing it was so difficult to keep up with because like i'm a you know i'm i mean i'm a gretz expert if i'm knowledgeable about gretz drums and i'm getting confused then there's an issue what what does the average guy on the street that wants to buy a drum set you know i mean gonna be i mean he's gonna be yeah well what's the difference between marquis and catalina maple and you know and and new classic and you know and and these are like dead lines by the way you know exactly i mean oh yeah yeah i mean marquis only lasted a year and that was kmc's last year so wow yeah just really i mean oh my goodness it was like i mean in fact i i i when we had lunch with fridt uh in november i told him that story yeah and and and i and i said that's one of the things that i'm so glad about what dw did is like you know they just got rid of stripped away shaved away yeah they just kept the four lines the four import lines that sold and then and then of course you know then there's USA quality i mean you know there's the you got the brooklyn series that came out 2012 you got the broadcaster series that came out in 2000 at the end of 2014 into 2015 and they're tremendous you know in fact i've got a broadcaster kit on order for myself right now so uh i'm looking to get that because uh yeah that'll that'll be my first uh you know brand new three play kit wow so i'm i'm i'm looking i'm looking i'm so looking forward to that kit the love continues and i think that's a perfect segue to say uh so 2019 we are in the 136th year of gretch which is unbelievable um you said it multiple times and i should have said it at the top but i want people to know that um john you have you co-wrote the gretch book with our friend rob cook um rob cook yep folks can go out and find that pretty much i'd say just google it and you will find it um it is a great resource for everything gretch um i think what we got here today is a very wonderful in-depth look at everything to do with gretch which i i am fascinated with and i feel now that i know a thousand percent more than i did before so i thank you so much okay well i'm i'm i'm glad that uh that you got something out of it oh that was great and go gretch you know uh that that great gretch sound that great gretch gravitas you know it's uh it's definitely the thing you know um and uh and uh if any of your listeners are in the northeast um you know i i do all the drum shows in the northeast the uh the Delaware drum show is um coming up yeah February 24th and then there's the Connecticut drum show in uh it's uh in newington uh on april 14th and then there's the Pennsylvania drum show uh in selen's grove uh and that is october 19th that's also and i do all these shows and i also have copies of the book there cool the hardcover version nice you can't get online so keep that in mind cool well i recommend people go up to you you're a you're a nice guy and i don't think you'll uh you'll bite if they come up and talk to you and say hey i heard you on drum history john i really appreciate it man i'll let you go and enjoy the rest of your day and uh and i hope to see you at one of the drum shows down the down the road okay sure yeah no problem and uh you know and it's real pleasure talking to you uh it's it's it's it's great what you do and i'm i'm looking forward to listening to your other other podcasts thank you so much this has been awesome very welcome john you have yourself a good day thank you my friend you too man sure take care bye bye if you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future until next time keep on learning this is a guin sound podcast