Yeah, yeah, yeah, the standup ministry conference November 30 to December 2 2007 the Robert Treat Hotel The first conference Hale in the United States in Newark, New Jersey To challenge Christians to stand up for the truth of the scripture Who's that? Who's that dude that who's that dude right there? Yo Seven is a bad you see see this is 2007 sacred woods is a pastor giving out Lord supper at this event and this was when you had a Apostasy watch this was like I said very early on people came from all around the country To argue the first conference of its own kind in Newark, New Jersey We came from all over the place because we were we're thinking about truth now just to reiterate that I Text you if you go back. I actually got in it with G22 radio, right? I we you know when it when he started slamming sacred woods and asking the question Well, it's saco a pastor and I and you can go look Ricky Gans. I said wait a minute Weren't you and saco friends? I asked that I said wait a minute when I had issue with saco because of certain issues with him doing Apologetics with Fred Price, Jr. And where he was from the standpoint of being a pastor elder at his church and what was going on because of the the hearsay of Kevin Oliver I've got it him and it was only by Sean Isaacs that came and said you need to speak with your brother Hollywood say go we repaired some stuff, right? So just to let you guys know I'm not a say go woods fan not at all But I've been doing this stuff for about 20 years 25 years, you know when when when Ricky Gans said Passes there is who are you and I started dropping the receipts. Do you know do you know William Lane Craig? No, you don't do you know Frank Turrick? No, you don't do you know Vody Bacchum? 2007 he was doing the conference in Cal. No, you don't when I start dropping people's names, right? And start saying do you know this person? My mentors knew J. Bernamigui so you guys sent up here asking about this dude say go my question do To read Ricky was is do what happened?  You're calling him an elder you're calling him this you're calling him that and last I checked the Bible said God gives Gifts to the body of Christ Right say go didn't didn't it say that he gives pastor teachers and that name is entered that name is Interchangeable in the scriptures in the epistles, right am I am I wrong about that? Am I right about that? And and once you have the gift that that's you're for the body of Christ I don't ever recall the scripture where it got taken away if you've got the gift You got the gift if you're called the teacher you're called the teacher Now it's very interesting when I started getting in it with Ricky Gans. I asked him He said well, he needs to be accountable. I said to who and that goes for you to Kdub And everybody else out there wanting to know say goes not like you He's not like other dudes There was something that took place men came forth laid their hands on him and Ordained him to the ministry. I Ask Ricky Ricky your pastor. No, I'm not ordained. I said wait a minute. Hold up stop back up You mean to tell me you're not ordained Trying to hold a pastor that is accountable ordained to accountability in Other words Seiko if his wife and his kids want to ala Patmos he could give us Lord supper to his family Ricky you can't When it comes down to ministry Seiko can do the to baptism Lord supper Ricky You can't you got a pick up the phone and call somebody. Um, excuse me Is there somebody that that that can come baptize this person because I can Yeah infants who died in infancy go to heaven. That's a whole new podcast But let me tell you this Seiko come on bro if they do they don't go because they're innocent They go By the grace of God because they're conceived healthy and filthy Yes, and when that little thing is born, I got five babies.  There you go. That's another It's a case He's old Come on But we were naughty by nature before naughty by nature My point so the little baby comes out of the womb Guilty and filthy now. Yeah, it does and and so when it gets old enough just Actually months old it begins to act out And then as it gets old enough it begins to act out even more Fully Those are actual sins So actual sins Are stacked on top of original sin All right, so when Jesus forgives us of all our sins He forgives all of our sins even that original one that was imputed to our county conception And when a sinner gets taught that by the Holy Spirit He'll own it all the way down to the root and that's what david is doing So i'm 51 five as a Christian, you know what he's saying? He david is tracing back his sinner Not to not to a bird He's tracing the back nine months before come on boy. He's saying basically I've always been sinful from The beginning meaning now now here's my point with reference to what russ van said and if russ van or anybody else Don't believe in original sin. That's not a side issue Come on. That's not something you can just take a leave.  I don't mind Calvinism so much as Calvinists Well, yeah, we got a lot of Reformed Christians who are mess, but here's a secret cycle. There's a lot of Armenian Christians are messed in. That's right That's right. All right, but here's my point here What what what is meant by culture anyways? Well, every country has a culture and every sub Group within that country has a culture. That's right.  That's culture. Come on. So all of all of that's going to bleed into church Right. So a church in in a predominately black Environment might look different than a church in a predominantly white or rich or southern northern or America Russia Africa South America Asia churches in all those places and get this In each of those places. There's a multitude of subcultures. That's right. Here's my point. Here's my point Does Reformed theology have a culture? Well, I'm sure it does It might be a black church. That's predominantly reformed and it might have its own unique culture There's a white reform church that's going to have a unique culture and then our sister churches down in in sando domingo and Cuba and Colombia and Ecuador and all those places They're reformed Baptist churches Solidly confessional and they have their own subcultures in their own countries. Right. Now. Here's my point What about that? So what it is what it is. You can't stop that And it and it's no problem to say go as long as As long as we don't duplicate Simple things in those cultures in the church. That's it. That's it Secondly nor do we force everybody that comes into it to Walk the same line and do the same things for our somehow do not accept them. Welcome. Welcome to the bcv channel I am your host pass and say go was please do the following Please like subscribe share hit that notification bell at the bottom of the video that way whenever I go live and post any content You be one of the first to view it Also, if you'd like to support this mission financially you can do so by clicking the donation links below at the bottom of the video We do thank you. Those of you have been so consistent and faithful and gracious with your Tangible expressions of love and financial support. We do thank you so much for that We do appreciate it so much Also, you would like to become a body life or body lifers of those Who support this ministry would desire to support this ministry on a consistent basis They make love life measure the woods and the bcv channel a part of their regular online support and giving outside of their support of the Local church. We do believe in supporting the local church. We do believe contrary to some people's opinion In view, that's why I cannot wait for my brothers to come on in this camp After I get through the housekeeping rules and things of that nature Because they're gonna be bringing it tonight. All right, but We do support the local fellowship And so if you are a part of a local fellowship Take care of your local church first before you take care of any other Pair or church or pair of ministries outside of your local fellowship They deserve your support first and foremost But we do appreciate those who have been Consistent and gracious and faithful in doing that. We really really do appreciate that on behalf of my family and our We say, thank you very much. Also, let's support the ministry through the bcv merchandise So we have online you can go to the bcv store and you can Select and choose Whatever items and repair old and and things of that nature that you would like to support the ministry In that way. So we thank you as well. We'll show all of those links Take it across the screen later on near the end of the broadcast. So we thank you So much for that Moderators, thank you for holding it down. Welcome moderators facebook family get to see you all as well Johnton, good to see you rodney. What's up? My brother sister lisa brother chris. Thank you over there on the facebook chat Go ahead and like the video share the video over there on the facebook side youtube family get to see you all You all are jam-packed in the house tonight. Thank you so much for that too many to name but Thank you all so much for joining here tonight A lot of you all are here. So, uh, can't mention all your names right now for the sake of time but thank you for supporting and coming on in and being a part of this very Live and fiery. I'm not talking about firing in in the bad sense. I'm talking about fire in a good sense You'll see why that was just a sample of what we're talking about what you saw earlier earlier just a moment ago. So Buckle up ladies and gentlemen buckle up. We're about to get this thing in Want to read a few scriptures to you all so we can get a little foundation. We're going to be talking about Uh, I have my brothers already waiting in the wings and so I want to share Some foundational texts and what we're going to be discussing and let's get right into it Matthew chapter 18 verses 15 through 17 if your brother sins go and show him his fault in private If it listens to you, you have won your brother. That's what it says, right? Yes, it does Verse 16 it says But if he does not listen to you take one or two more with you So by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact every fact May be confirmed not every feeling Never not every I think so Not every to me it is no every fact May be confirmed verse 17 If he listens to you or if he or she listens to them, excuse me Tell it to the church refuses. Give me if he refuses to listen to them. Tell it to the church And if you refuse to even to listen to the church Let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector Matthew first Corinthians chapter five verse 1 to 13 We know this passage is going to go through a few of the verses here It is actually reported that there is immorality among you and immorality of such a kind As does that exist even among the Gentiles that someone has his father's wife You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead so that the one who have done this dish will be removed from your midst For I am my part though absent in body but present in spirit have already judged him who has committed So committed this as though I were present In the name of our lord Jesus when you are assembled and I with you in spirit with the power of our lord Jesus I have decided to deliver such a want to Satan for the destruction of his flesh So that his spirit may be saved in the day of the lord Jesus verse nine I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral people I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world or with the coverages and swindlers Or with idolaters for then you would have to go out of the world But actually I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if He is an immoral person Or coverages or an idolater or reviler or a drunkard or a swindler not even to eat with such a one For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within? But those who are outside God judges Remove the wicked man from among yourselves 1st Timothy chapter 5 in verse 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses Those who continue in sin rebuke in the presence of all So that the rest also will be fearful of sinning Now solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of his chosen angels to maintain these principles without bias Doing nothing in the spirit of partiality Just wanted to read those verses to you all because we're going to be discussing that I have some questions from my brothers They do not know all what i'm going to be asking them which makes it organic Which makes it so unique here on this broadcast. So without any further ado introduce to some And familiarize to others Pastor Mike waters and also pastor xeric streamer. Thank you brothers for coming on You appreciate it. Welcome to the broadcast. What's going on fellas? Hey, thanks. Thank you. I appreciate brother acts. It's gonna be nice to finally get to meet you, man I know absolutely. I can't even see you. Uh, oh Okay, so look there may be two lines at the bottom of your of your devices It's like two up and down arrows. You all see that at the bottom of your screen Yep, okay, click that Yeah, all i'm seeing is you say call you should see you should see, um You should see me and then once, uh You click that up and down arrow. You may be able to see both of you No, you don't see no up and down arrow No, okay, it should be like an up and down arrow If you have your device like a little up and one goes down and one goes up right next to you I'm saying When I go down when I go down, I see myself and then you over in the corner and then when I do it again I see just you say I don't see okay, so but probably, um, May have to use another maybe you have a secondary device you probably can see it on that one But I can see you the audience can see both of you. The audience can see both of you. All right, so I got it Brothers, thank you man for coming on. Um, I don't want to take too much of your time I know, uh, brothers erics you have a lot to talk about but not a lot of time Because you have a prior engagement.   So right quick, uh, for those who may not know you gentlemen Because there are there are some new viewers here. Uh, this briefly, uh, briefly introduce yourselves I'll start you past the mic introduce yourself to the audience and uh, what brings you here, sir Mike waters pastor of heritage reform Baptist church in Canton, Ohio Just 30 minutes south of Akron and home to the football hall of fame Uh became a Christian in 94 Was converted through the ministry of a homeless shelter. I was in a crack rehab Uh, I was an addict to crack cocaine for 10 years from the mid 80s to the mid 90s And then in 1995 I became a member of the reform Baptist church Uh up in michigan where I was at And uh got married in 98 Made four babies with my wife Was sent south by my church in 2003 to pastor the church here in canton at the time it was up in akron And uh since then we had another baby. So we got five And uh now four babies And uh, so I've been a pastor of this church for 20 years From 2003 to to now And I worked as the chaplain of that homeless shelter for 10 years after my conversion or nine years After my conversion 94 to 2003. So I've been a part of parrot church organizations I have some insight into them and I can understand their usefulness and also limitations And then of course i'm been a pastor of a local church been a member of a local church Since I became christian and pastor of one for 20 years. So love the church and uh looking forward to talking to how the two relate Thank you, my brother. Thank you so much and uh pastor x Go ahead and let people know those who may be new to you. Uh, you're not, uh, you don't have a channel So a lot of people may not know who you are But you have not you're not a new person a new newcomer here to these social media streets At least not here on this channel. So uh brief to let people know a little bit about yourself brother And uh, what brings you here? I was ordained. Can you hear me? Yep. Go ahead. I was ordained in 1992 I've been a baptist my whole life I was a part of a national apologetic ministry called living by the word in the mid and early 90s And we did what was considered to be inner city or urban apologetics dealing with t.d. jakes creflo dollar carlton pierson clarence mclendon eddy long no jones oneness Black Hebrew Israelites And we were on Salem communications I happen to be an associate pastor at immanuel baptist church in los angeles california I've been there with my brother for almost 25 years He was he was there 26 years me 25 years And I I don't have a a youtube page Because my mentors Are adamant about discipleship And they firmly believe that you cannot properly disciple people over youtube and the majority of stuff That happens on youtube is entertainment based and socially based So I'm I'm so much involved with dealing with my kids. I have six kids four girls two boys eight grandkids And I've been married to my wife for 25 years And I'm actively in the streets in my church Attempting to people or attempting to get people to understand That they need to be born again And that's basically it I appreciate it brother, so let's jump right into the conversation you guys I read the text. I'm pretty sure y'all are not y'all are not, you know Knew it. What's been going on particularly with myself But there seems to be a world that has developed outside Of the world that we know which is social media And with that it has its rules. It has its regulations and unfortunately, I believe in my opinion There has been Christians most of us in the that that were compromised the church visibly speaking We find ourselves, you know, I guess you can say Caught up and a lot of the things that the world is considering to be The norm where you can basically Slando person you can basically disrespect the person you can basically Uh Melana person's character reputation Because it's social media, uh, as as you mentioned, you know X about entertainment But some people this may be considered as entertainment to others This is a person's or individual's livelihood, especially if you are people like us who are pastors ministers of the gospel elders those who are who give Their life for the body of christ in the sense of you know Teaching and and sharing your life with people that god has entrusted to you. Um, and so now you find where Social media has now become a place where people believe That you must submit to their rules submit to their regulations And if you don't then these passages that I had cited and and and you brothers are familiar with it Seen to be try to be try to be used and employed Against fellow brethren on social media. And so I want to I want to start with you first Passing pass the mic. I want to ask you, you know Does these verses matthew 18 first Corinthians five first Timothy five Do these verses apply in a social media context? If if so, why if not why not? I want to I want to you know, open up the the uh the floor and and give you the opportunity to respond to these things as you see I think say go a good place to start is With the distinction between the universal and local church Uh, church, of course is a term that means called out and gathered Uh, the new testament speaks of the church almost Exclusively though there's some uh important exceptions with respect to the local assembly Um, so a local church. Let me define that is A church that's governed by the new testament scriptures. There's going to be officers elders and deacons ordinarily Uh, I believe in a plurality of elders ordinarily, but a church can only have one elder It can have no deacons just because they don't have any at present And it's possible even for a church to be a church without any elders or deacons our church started in 2022 with just two deacons And it was overseen by other churches until I came as the first pastor, but Uh, and then there's members. Okay, so this is ordinarily what we think of as church It's it's uh in house. It's a local assembly There's elders deacons and members and this is the kind of church That um necessitates for giving each other 70 times 77 because we're getting on each other's nerves and uh smelling each other's bad breath Stepping on toes Offending each other every day, etc. Etc. This is the local assembly This is ordinarily what we think of by the church because ordinarily this is what the This is what the new testament means by it. And so those three particular passages you made reference to seiko Matthew first quinthians and first timothy they do they speak directly to the local church um If your brother sends against you go to him in private Secondly bring another brother thirdly tell it to the church. I take that to mean the church corporate uh, but nevertheless the elders Uh, and the elders need to bring it to the church if the person's impenitent first quinthians Chapter five and possibly even removed through excommunication Happily in that instance we know from second quinthians That uh, he repented seemingly and was brought back into the church But if you go to second quinthians two it says that the judgment of the majority Has served this purpose. That means the church voted. So I I'm elder rule congregational That's how our confession describes our church polity That means that we believe that the church has a say so in particular things in the recognition Particularly in two things in the recognition of her officers She votes on her officers elders and deacons and her members So that has to do with bringing them in and bringing them out through excommunication um So those texts speak directly to the local church Uh, and that's why jesus says tell it to the church And you have it first quinthians five you have a person living in sin among the brethren They they they know this man sleeping with his mama his step-mom humanly and he's impenitent And in the and in the last text first Timothy five, I think it speaks directly to elders I think there's an application there to members But elders who continue a perseverance in they need to be rebuked or censured to use the old term in in in where In the midst of the congregation So first of all those three texts speak to the church local now I do believe that there's principles that can be applied to the church universal And by church universal, of course, I mean Uh, the true people of god scattered all over this planet and we include in the church universal Sometimes called the catholic church with a little c not to be confused with roman catholicism But the catholic church little c universal church is made up of all christians who are truly saved on the planet As well as those who are in heaven Because some of the church universal is in heaven We call that the church militant and some of us are still on the earth. That's the church combative. We're in a fight We're in a fierce warfare So it's like for example me and you say go and x all three of us. We're not part of the same local church But we're part of the church Now People will say sometimes well, I don't have to be a part of a church. I'm a part of the church No, if you're part of the church, you should be a part of a church now There's exceptions obviously, but those are just that the exceptions ordinarily all christians are part of local assemblies This is the clear teaching of the scripture again The majority of the epistles were written to local assemblies. There's pastors given to oversee local assemblies Peter speaks about sheep gifted to elders and elders are going to be responsible for those sheep So we believe in a formal membership or a definable membership to know who is and isn't a part of that assembly I mean, look, we just spoke about the judgment of the majority. They voted that villain out in first Corinthians five What if somebody just showed up and visiting that Sunday? Can they vote? No, you have to be a member to vote You have to be a member to have a say in this man's Future in terms of whether or not you should be removed from the church So everybody who's a part of the church ordinarily is a part of a church those texts have to do with local churches They have principles that would apply to the universal church Not all of those texts have principles per se, but they do have some principles. For example Matthew 18 Uh, me and you say go if if you say something to me that's offensive I should go to you and say hey brother. You meant that was offensive what you said to me Uh, and even though we're not a part of the same local church. We're part of the church All right, brother So there's principle and then if you and if you don't listen to me It wouldn't be wrong for me to bring somebody else like x maybe hey x I went to saco and tried to confront him because he offended me He said get lost. Would you mind if me and you spoke to him now that the difficulty then becomes what if Um, saco doesn't repent of that sin According to the Matthew 18 we go to the elders. I think that's implied The elders take it to the church. I don't think that when Jesus says tell it to the church You're just going to stand up in the meeting one day and say hey everybody this brother over here You know, no, no, there's order and there's other texts. You have to factor in But but so if I see that has an application in this If you don't repent then I might Take the uh initiative to call your pastor And say hey one of your sheep offended me I try to do the principles of Matthew 18 And then I would leave it with him. I wouldn't take it further Now the excommunication principles that has to do with removing the brother from membership Right that mean I don't think that means ordinarily he can't come to church It means that he's not to be viewed as a Christian and he's not to have the benefits of membership He's not to vote. He's not to take the sacraments He's not to take the Lord's Supper and he's to be viewed as a non-believer if he's excommunicated Right and that means that brothers need it when they see them. They don't go to them in fellowship with them They say hey, Joe Have you have you considered to repent from your sins? And we love you and we're praying for you that you would repent from your sins And if I can do anything to help you let me know So but the principle of that that's excommunication in the context of a local assembly that has a principle Maybe if I go to uh your pastor say go for example, and I tell him what happens and he doesn't do anything about it then it's Then it's kind of like you're excommunicated to me in the sense that I might not fellowship with you or mess with you anymore Right. Um, I probably wouldn't be your friend or maybe we we can unfriend each other on facebook Or I just wouldn't talk to you anymore because there's a there's a rift between us you've sinned against me Right, but say well as soon as you repent from that sin the rift is gone and we're reconciling Amen, so I think as long as we keep the distinction between the universal church and the catholic church I'm sorry the universal church and the local church in mind Giving the priority to the ladder of the two that is the local assembly The priority has to be given to the local assembly I think the other like what we're doing right now Is a supplement to that and you said that rightly in your introduction First support your local assembly and then look at supporting Perichurch extra that is in addition to local assemblies ministries I worked for 10 years as the chaplain of the homeless shelter. I got paid I didn't get paid a whole lot, but I got paid And well they took care of me and I got a good package. I had good insurance. Well, who paid that money? Churches and individuals christian corporations They donated money to the mission and that That allowed me to make a living Contrary to the guests you had on last night That made me or the night before the one talking about you can't make a money off the god You can't make a livelihood off the gospel. That was ridiculous That allowed me to support my family right and make a living right And so I'm for Perichurch organizations as long as they Stay in their lane, right? And they support the local assemblies, which is to be given the priority Let me sum it up in this way those three texts speak of local churches period They have principles You know a text has a meaning and then it has several applications Or principles and definitely there's principles in all five of them. I think that are relative to to To Perichurch organizations and just christian fellowship That takes place outside the confines of local assemblies, right? I appreciate that brother. Thank you. Uh x the uh the the verses that I cited Again, if you show your thoughts and your perspective on that, uh, does this apply to the local church? If so why if not why not pretty sure you're gonna pretty much echo what Well, Pastor Mike said but want to want to give you the opportunity as well. So pass the exit go right ahead well Okay, so I agree what what pastor Mike said There's a a general concept And like I said like pastor Mike said there's a universal concept I could sum it up like this Hey, my ace can you move in and center yourself into the into the camera shot? There you go. Okay, right here Okay, so I can back up a little bit. Yeah, I could I could I could sum it up like this You might have seven different teams playing basketball In a league And they're all playing against various teams There are general rules that apply when it comes to basketball In regards to you can't travel You can't file you can't do things out of the confines of being A part of a basketball team or the structure of what a basketball team would be However, in each individual team, there's a playbook And those playbooks may be different one might run the triangle offense Another one might run a spread Another one might run man-to-man, but it's still within the confines of basketball So when you look at those scriptures, it is speaking of the local church But again, Mike said it well that there's also a universal application to that So if you go back and you look at Matthew 18 And there's a problem between a brother And it says if he will not hear the two or three it says take it to the church Well, I found that on social media There are individuals that have taken up on themselves To be a type of jurisdiction That wants to legislate over a person's mouth Attitude or tone Well, you can't really apply Matthew 18 in regards to Legislating that because first of all, who are the elders? Who's who are the presiding people? Mike said it well, but I think we have to understand that there are two forms of government One is called elder rule The other one's called congregational rule One of the strange things that you don't want to get into on being on youtube Is trying to define Christian ethics or polity when things may differ, but what do you mean by that? There's a belief system in the egalitarian and I wouldn't say egalitarian, but the anglican church That does not necessarily exist in the baptist church There's an idea that exists in the kojic church that does not necessarily exist in the presbyterian church And when you get different individuals arguing about polity Where their background might not be the same you could create a whole lot of confusion So if you remember my clip when I was and I oh, let me say this right now For those of you that may know I had some issues with A guy by the name of ricky gans g 220 ministries And the reason I had issue with him is because he was attempting to bring a Jurisdictional complaint or a premise against saco When you talk about the baptist church as being a local Autonomous division of the church universal I told ricky that technically no you could not bring anything Against saco because each baptist church holds local autonomy In other words, I'm part of the american baptist church Subdivision southern baptist church background of the national baptist church Now me and mike we share Baptist understanding we share baptist rules, right? But if I do something within my local shell is fellowship That may be somewhat different in practice in mike's fellowship Mike can't turn around and come and say well what you're doing is wrong because we do it this way Okay, in other words I drink chitlin soup. No, I'm just kidding No, or let me let me let me do it like this Brother mike has a tendency to have a 40 every now and then Which is his full right to do so and I'm loving him for that However at immanuel We discourage individuals from going down that road Why because a 40 in los angeles inner city is not just a drink casually It becomes I have to cut you off there brother and clarify That you know, they don't sell 40s anymore at least rarely I drink them 24 ounce cans So i'm telling them myself I date myself, right? Yeah, but but even yet and still That's not one of the things that we were doing la only because of the careful consideration of the flock What it means what it portrays in los angeles now if a person goes and does that He's not an anathema But i'm just saying walking outside of the church in inner city los angeles Partaking there of would look a certain way be a certain way So for when brother mike was talking about the cultural and he was talking about the cultural dynamic Cultural dynamics will look different in la than they would in texas or they would in arizona or they would in New orleans or they would in florida and let's say friends you're on social media talking to a guy about something And he happens to be from florida and he doesn't have a clue in regards to polity and you do something From a la perspective that might hurt his feelings. He might say you're in sin And you might not be in sin It might be a different perspective. So when you're looking at these texts Yeah, there is a universal principle that applies across the board But when you ask the question of bringing it to the church, who are we talking about? What are we saying? Which is a great point that mike made mike said what you would do is pick up the phone And call that person's pastor and inquire there or you would pick up the phone and inquire of the elders there Which eventually, um, I participated on a phone call With seiko in regards to a brother with that Yeah, go ahead continue. Okay, so I thought you were gonna say something so no, no So with that being said when you're looking at scripture, you have to be very careful Matthew, uh 18 if your brother sins against you. Well, first of all We have to qualify What that is A lot of people would say and i'm just gonna deal with the elephant in the room A lot of people say that seiko's got a potty mouth And the stuff that he says is horrible Well, I would encourage you guys to go back and read the argument between luther and Erasmus And then get back at me and tell me the differences between Seiko's conversation with people that differ with him and Erasmus's conversation or luther's conversation with Erasmus Or you would travel down the gate of history and see whether or not the the confrontation Not in apologetics, but polemics and how vigorously The conversation went in between two believers that believe differently in other words. I don't believe Armenians are not saved.  No, i'm a Calvinist, but I believe Armenians are saved There are some Armenians such as latent flowers that believe that Calvinism is a dangerous doctrine of devils But that doesn't necessarily mean between the two arguments what they are You have some people that are non dispensationalists and they're covenants And they will say to you well because you believe in dispensationalism that you're wrong. No, I'm a dispensationalist Now the question becomes when you get into dispensationalism Are you going down the rabbit hole of all the things about dispensationalism? Or are you dealing with the the issues of what's called progressive dispensationalism? This is a book by by it was uh, let me see it says the master perspective on contemporary issues by dr Robert thomas this book was done. I think it was in 92 volume 2 by 0 forward by john mcarthur which dealt with the dispensational problems within the church And the things that it led to so dr Robert thomas was dealing with those issues and they were addressing the Dispensationalist versus the progressive dispensationalist, but again, even if you deal with those particular issues it you you you don't throw somebody into the heat mist or the Heretical camp just because you differ so I wanted to come on And and and and say to the listening audience beware Of how you interact on social media But understand the other person's perspective Well, what do you mean by that? Well, I would say this As Baptist we have local autonomy and brother might you can chime in at any time And we believe that the function and the role are simultaneous It's just like past pastor teacher interchangeable roles. Well in the e gala in the um What is the church that uh, julie royce is in uh, she's uh Anglican she's the anglican church. Well in the anglican church They believe that women can participate And to hold the title of speaking or preaching with they can do that without the particular title Well, and a whole lot of people say, oh, no, they can't do that. But wait a minute. I guarantee you When you go into any Non-denominational or most Baptist churches you have women Preaching whether it be to young people or other individuals and at the southern Baptist convention This past year it was dealing with how local autonomous churches Apply the term not as head or lead pastor But the functioning role within the church and a whole lot of people went. Oh, no, you can't do this Oh, no, you can't do that. Oh, no, you can't do the other and because the local autonomy of the church is what it is There weren't any particular Defining terms in regards to how those go and like I said the spc and anaheim this past year were crazy. Go ahead Okay, let me let me make that application to a pair of church organizations Like like podcasts Uh local autonomy If you don't like the church league I mean, you you should be faithful to your church and and I'm not saying just leave for any old reason whatever Right, but it but membership is um Something that you choose to do on your own Okay, so you choose to come into the church Understanding its views like if you're going to join the Anglican church, which I couldn't Then you have to know they allow that If you're going to join a dispensational church like I probably wouldn't Right, and I'm glad you said that Mike it Mike I'm glad you said that because the interesting thing about the three of us You have two dispies and one are male, but we're still brothers and we can have conversations And we and you and I have on many occasions offline, right? But yeah, if it push from the shelf I'm gonna come I'm gonna defend my brother and have my brother's back because It goes back again first of all to the local autonomy So so our church has the right to believe certain things and to practice certain things if you don't like it Then you can you leave or don't join it Seiko has the same right or parent church organizations podcast etc have the same Similar local autonomy in that I think the the parent church organizations should ordinarily be attached to local assemblies I do believe that But what I'm saying is I have the freedom to either listen to seiko or not And so now I also have the freedom to to talk to seiko and to express my concerns differences Or whatever about whatever he says or does but at the end of the day, I have to choose Um, what's most important? And do I want to be in that church? Even though we differ on certain things or watch this podcast even though we differ on certain things I've made that judgment call concerning seiko. I I basically Theologically we have some differences I'm sure there's a host of things I could think of that we differ on or maybe some practical issues But I have to make that judgment call and I'm free to do that And so I'm free to talk to seiko and explain my differences and maybe even challenge them on certain things Like doctrine and some practical things But nevertheless, I still have to make A list of the issues or the differences and I have to prioritize them Is it something major? If if I okay for example people say seiko is rough rugged rude and crude Well, you've said this before seiko a thousand times if that's not you then that's okay My thinking is if that's not for me As long as seiko isn't teaching contrary to the bible And he's proving himself to be a christian man who's telling the truth. I may not like it Thus I may not mess with it But I leave it at that right I may not go to that church in town because it's armenian dispensational or paedobaptist That's cool. I don't unchurch it I don't understand everybody who goes there. It's not for me. I might not mess with it But even then it depends on the difference. It depends on the severity of the issues I may still mess with it. I mean, let's face it. I fellowship with dispensational churches in town paedobaptist churches in town I met I mess with them. I mean we we share pulpits We we we do conferences together. They're all Calvinistic Dispensationalists and then the paedobaptists are conservative presbyterians I got an email from the local liberal presbyterian church They wanted to take me out for coffee the two pastors. I went out I made a very plain that i'm conservative theologically and politically We started with the theology. I asked them. Do you guys believe your confession that the bible is inspired? The hell is literal conscious torment salvation through blood atonement, etc They said no, we don't believe that I said well, then we cannot fellowship on any level and we broke times period I don't I don't I don't view them as a christian church But that's not like my Calvinistic dispensational brother or even an armenian church an armenian church I probably couldn't share pulpits or or conferences But we can have coffee. I can have the pastor over to my house There's levels of fellowship and I think that implies even to the podcast I may or not I may or not agree with saco so I may not mess with him You know A lot but i'm not but i'm but i'm i'm his friend I support him like for example in that illustration of the local Baptist minister who's armenian Right, there's just different levels. I see it and I see it's important to keep the distinction in mind between the local and the universal And then major issues that might cause me not to fellowship with the local church or a parent church organization And then other issues that are preference and opinion or just lesser in importance that may remain or that likely will Impact the level of fellowship that I have with either of those two Let me let me ask you all this question those who just joined I have past the mic waters and past the x reamer We're talking about The church of social media versus the true church and we're discussing church authority church leadership and how these things should be Distinguishable But then the the local church and amongst the body of christ in general So I want to I want to ask this question because I got a few things I want to do and I don't want to keep you keep you all too long Because I know you got to load get it got to run it in just a bit, but Permit me to do this because I believe this is important And I haven't I haven't gotten your thoughts Neither your thoughts in a public context. Matter of fact, I know passing like I haven't Hey, just one second. Okay. So so just to piggyback on what Mike said I'm a boxing coach and I'm a track coach And there are there are there are a couple of ways to do boxing, but a couple of ways to do sprints as well And I think what brother Mike was talking about is far with me If I'm training you Then I'm training you If I'm showing you a particular boxing technique It's not going to be fruitful for you To go train under me and then go train under the other person because you have to understand the concept totally So a lot of people have confused me who's saying well, you know what you don't listen anybody. No, it's not that I don't listen It's the fact that if I'm teaching you how to fight and I have a skill set you would call it In in crafting our machine work. You would call it an apprentice or a journeyman If I'm a journeyman and I know that you're not a journeyman in your apprentice It's going to be hard for you to sit up under me to get the journeyman status When you got five or six or seven or eight or nine people that you're trying to learn from because it's a specific specific technique So with that being said A lot of people they don't understand Seiko's particular and before we go any further. Let me let y'all know right now before you guys are doing all this talk I know Seiko That's my younger brother met him in 2007 We both know a guy that just recently called him the heir apparent to inner city apologetics So when you talk about well, how come you're going to take his side? I'm not taking anybody's side But the guy knows his stuff. Is he brash? Yeah Is he loud? Yeah, does he cut people off? Yes, he does now the question is why does he do that? Because most of the people out there They don't have a thesis nor a theological Understanding by which to argue if you think I'm playing go look at the debate last night All you got to do is look at the debate last night and track the grammatical historical Herminutics and the premises and you will soon come to find out the person that was yelling at seiko going off on seiko said Well, you know, I Could be wrong But then why are you talking so don't get a confused audience? He's adamant. He's passionate and he's rolling with what he does now you continue And this is one of the reasons why I have this do it on because In my floor thought he said let me he he did the Kanye on me, uh, uh, Mike Let me just say one more thing and I'll let you talk But it's love though. So so I wanted I want to do this. I think we I think we Are we clear then what the the passage is that is that is basically So the local church and the principles can be deduced from it But we can't we can't miss the immediate, you know, primary context, right? So we we good with that We we good with everybody. Okay. Yeah, we do with that. Okay. Cool. All right. So let me do this because As you all know, you know the soul situation with john macArthur um, this thing has evolved and has grown to be Sides have been sides have been drawn. I mean it just just is what it is. Um, you know, first week of 1119 I always mentioned that there must be factions and divisions and schisms and heresies among you So those who are approved may be made known for the life of me I don't know how anybody can support any ministry or any minister or any pastor who puts um abused victims and the children out of a church and then without matter of fact Passing mic like you mentioned without going through biblical church discipline protocol Now, I don't know. I don't know mic. If you have been aware of this Maybe I think you can tell me if you have how familiar are you with the whole eileen gray john macArthur situation, I'm not sure if you've even read any of julie roy's articles, but it's been it's been going on Since since they broke over a year or so But the but the abuse scandal had had occurred 20 years ago The woman waited 20 years until her children were adults because Of the the trauma and all of the things that had occurred and she wanted to just make sure her babies were safe And so she she gathered up all her receipts all her information, you know The man is in prison right now. He was denied parole his second attempt he was denied and prior to that Grace to you john macArthur's church had funded and financed his quote unquote ministry while at the same time Excommunicating the the wife of the mother and and and caused his children and in the mother to basically have to fend for themselves This is not conjecture. This is not assumption. These are all facts. This is all documented. It's all proven from church letters from court statements documents and all of that so Mike you being a pastor, how should that situation have been handled? Let me let me start with you How should that situation have been handled? Well, to be honest, I really don't know any of the particulars. Um, I mean, I know that brought strokes as you just spelled them out um I haven't for a variety of reasons um Followed macArthur for over a couple decades. I haven't watched a full sermon or read a book in 25 years So it's just I got um so many better better books Better sources that I've found So I just haven't Uh, I I just haven't been involved in his ministry for a long time. So I to be honest, I just haven't followed the the debate Um, so I I really couldn't speak on it authoritatively and I don't know exactly how it did it went down So I I can only say that Um, I can only you know, surmise how how it ought to have gone down You know, you have to yeah, if you can do that, I mean, yeah, that's what you want to abuse. Yeah It has to be taken seriously and it has to be vetted on both sides um and And you know, we all agree on that Uh, and uh, whether or not he did that There's from what I can I know you I know your character your depth You definitely been pretty adamant and consistent on this topic So I I would uh, I would weigh that very heavily in my thinking if I were to to dig into it and um and uh spend a lot of time reading the documents and trying to find out what's happening Uh, then I then I would be able to speak more authoritatively, but at present I I don't feel really all that, you know, interested in it. I got I got a family that I'm trying to reconcile I got another person that's addicted to drink. I'm trying to help I got I I'm just really I I'm I'm pretty limited Um in in my exposure. In fact, you're the only one that I watch at all I mean, I and I and I don't get to watch, you know, maybe a video every couple Sometimes every couple months. Yeah, you know, it just depends on how things are going Uh, you you allow me to at least have my ear to the to the to the bigger world I I'm reformed Baptist. So my all my my time is spent among reformed Baptist churches reformed Baptist fellowships So I'm kind of limited in that And I don't really spend much time exceeding it to be honest. Sure. Got you. All right. Um Pastor X for for maybe for you, uh, you're you're for me when and I and I definitely appreciate, uh, Pastor Mike In his in his take on it and not, you know, wanting to comment on something He's not familiar with that different respect that I think after after I ask you this question you and you And you share your thoughts I believe what I need to share after this it will be it will actually y'all will basically it would be in both The odds wheel houses because it now it deals with pastoral qualifications of an individual that I want to bring to your attention publicly because it is public uh, but uh But pastor ask the question show your thoughts about what you have, you know, what you have seen Um, what you know to be true, uh, and what you have also, I guess have converged with other individuals regarding this whole abuse Scandal, which is one of several abuses that have been occurring at grace community church for over 44 years Okay. All right. So those of you that don't know I'll say it again Both my mentors Taught or spoke I wouldn't say taught spoke at masters As african-american men before anybody else did My mentor recently did a video on jack hayford I mean not jack hayford on, um Charles stanley And he mentioned in there. I don't want to go into it But he mentioned when he said I don't want to go into but he talked about john mac as his friend my old friend And he said out of his mouth all john needs to do. I think at this time would be to repent He said that this is not a person that doesn't know john. He knows john This is also a person that john macArthur's students went and stayed at his house And with his church in inner city los andalus on missions trips That's not somebody you just go let be at your church and fellowship Without having over shepherd guidance. So um With that being said saco me and you were talking earlier and there was a book That I had and I need to go get it called clergy malpractice Yes, and it was talking about clergy malpractice and one of the examples Of clergy malpractice Was john macArthur in the 80s So and and that's just to let you know that This thing that we're talking about is not something new Uh, the clergy malpractice idea Was not something when they were talking about pastors and we got the books of things of what not to do Grace community church came up Now that's interesting Because christian christian center never came up Eddie long's church came up Tdj's church never came up in clergy malpractice So I framed this whole idea about this for all you people that are lakers fans put one up in the chat Let me pull saco For all you lakers fans That's right. Now, let me ask you a question Were you disappointed at lebron james when the lakers got swept?  And his performance in the playoffs Of not passing the ball and taking three pointers and utterly being the reason that the lakers got swept Well, if you can be upset about lebron james because you are a fan We have every right myself that spent money to go to the conferences Saco that spent money to go to the conferences. I'm still a laker fan today, but I'm upset at what lebron did I'm still a grace fan, but I'm upset at what I found out that mac did and I'm looking at the paper trail So my question becomes this if I have the right to be upset about my laker fan Be upset about what trump did or did not do be upset for all y'all obama fans that obama didn't do anything for this this thisness Or for those of you that happen to be republican and you're mad at the republicans Or those that happen to be mad at democrats if you're still any of those persuasions and you have a right to Why would you get mad at me? Or mad at saco Because we're saying john. This is what you taught This is what you when we went to your conferences You taught us on pastoral counseling and what to do and you dropped the ball Do we not have a right to be thoroughly pissed off to the highest of Pistivity because you fumbled the ball That's an honest question ain't it might I think it's an honest question for sure Again, it just to be frank about it guys. Um, macarthur just isn't in my circle And I I don't feel personally obligated to go outside of it and and try to Address all the other issues. I got plenty in my own little world and I got 50 families. I'm accountable to Accountable for and too. So I'm just trying to I'm trying I'm trying to swim and not sink keeping up Keeping up with that. I gotta make four sermons a week and take care of my people So I I come up. I come up out of the water to catch my breath. I might look at a saco video Definitely, I'm not So so far in trench that I don't know that there's a controversy that's been brewing for some time with reference to them But that's this way. I mean, it's the same with all the guys I mean, I don't keep up with all the other controversies with the other previous famous people from drisco and those dudes I've never watched a full sermon by any of those guys. I've never read a book by them And uh, I again, I'm I'm confessional baptist. So I have A ton of churches that I I fellowship with I mingle with other pastors that I work with don't get me wrong I'm not I don't believe local autonomy to mean that I'm to be isolated from the world But I have to be selective in my in my In my focuses and and in my energies plus I'm almost 60 man. I'm tired, you know Yeah, I mean I used to be able to make four sermons a week and and Now I struggle to get those done and then it used to be that I could have, you know Condiverses after controversies in my own church and I would go to sleep and and and at night and sleep decently Now man, I can't sleep if I have controversies in my church. I'm just getting older Yeah, and so I mean I got bags in my eyes now if you can tell I want to do this then let's shift gears. I want to talk about pastor qualifications. Okay, let's do that We know that we we know what these are because we we're we're pastors. We're familiar with that Um, but again and and and Mike forgive me because I'm not trying to put you in anything But I'm just I'm I'm I wanted to get your perspective As much as possible as much as possible as much as you're comfortable Uh with whatever is stated publicly If something is stated publicly and you and you feel the you know the the desire to to comment on it Then that's fine, but I want to I want to basically just um cite the text And then play some clips and then get your thoughts if you if you feel, you know The leverage to to to respond to it from a pastoral Context if that's okay with both you gentlemen, then that'd be great. Um, so I want to I want to do this again Let's look at first Timothy three. We all know it but for the sake of a Reminder reminder and context it is a trustworthy statement if any man aspires to the office of overseer It is a fine work. He desires to do An overseer then must be above reproach the husband of one wife Temporate prudent respectable hospitable able to teach Not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle peaceable free from the love of money He must be one who manages his own household well keeping his children under control with all dignity But if a man does not know how to manage his own household How would he take care of the church of god and not a new convert verse six so that he might He will not become conceited and fall into the snare or condemnation incurred by the devil He must have a good reputation with those outside the church so that he will not fall into reproach and snare of of the devil, so I wanted to read that because um Again, Mike and and you know, I know you say you don't really watch a lot of videos, but I'm deciding these clips in context regarding um John McArthur regarding Brother Corey minor Who responded to these these these things and gave the the qualifications as well And and there seemed to be a a switch in the in the flip and and with that Regarding the qualifications of a pastor Or an elder or or a teacher and then also with With brother Corey minor as well to some of I want to address this from a pastoral standpoint You being a pastor of a local church Pastor X being a pastor of a local church. How would you brothers? How would you gentlemen respond or will be your will be your church's position? Should these things be publicly stated? Or how would an individual qualify or do they qualify after what has been publicly stated here? So let me just play the clips here And uh, I'll play the first two clips and then we'll come back on the on the other side And uh, get your thoughts, uh regarding that. So here's the first two clips here at pastor Um is going to have to give an account for what is happening in that church Is he at fault for all the bad that's going on? But if something is rampant then we've got a problem If something is rampant then we have a problem With macArthur and we'll deal with one of the issues that I know people want to talk about But in over 50 years Spread out It seems like it seems like that the level of scandal Is less at least compared to most other pastors Over 50 years. Have you ever seen or heard of a story of someone being prosecuted and everyone thought the person was good everybody Thought the person was guilty Everybody by all accounts all the evidence stacked up and this person was guilty This person was wrong off with his head come to find out. Wow. We made a mistake So be careful, but I'm not you might be right you might be right and even if you are right I still say in some of those things it still may not disqualify them. I don't think it does That's just me So the the statement was you know, again in in probably passing Mike, you may not Get a chime in on this part. Uh, but I know maybe on the other clips You probably have more to say about it because it definitely deals with the pastor or qualifications and then what this brother had said, but um, what what brother core was mentioning was talking about Basically it was saying that the the scandals or the accusations or what has not been proven Uh, it doesn't disqualify him but prior to that or a year ago He said that it did and and I'm pretty sure pastor actually know what what that what that is But that that caused a lot of confusion. I guess you can say, uh, uh, brother Mike regarding regarding a man Who has a following and has uh, you know, over 100,000 some odd followers now Uh, who was basically clear in what a pastor should be A year ago and then now has changed his position Uh, regarding the same qualifications of of a pastor and now saying that he that he's qualified So if a person if a person Is disqualified And I guess my question would be if a person is disqualifying in your in your church pastor, Mike, is there is there a, um Is there a restoration process regarding, you know, I guess the adultery or even with the situation with, um, With, uh, mark Driscoll not sure how how familiar you are with that But what what is the what is your church is restoration process when it comes to any of these, uh, sins or violations of the of the passage the first first timothy three I think somebody muted you hold on me. Try it again. Go ahead. Mike. I'm sorry well You see this is where I just fall back on what we were talking about earlier psycho and and that x made a big point about and that churches are Autonomous and that includes mccarthur's church So if there's accusations against mccarthur, everybody has a right to level them Toward the eldership with uh, and and and ask for questions And and then the the local church the church days of pastor health has to do and Uh an inside examination They can find out if it's true it if if somebody was a okay, we believe a local autonomy So our church does that which it believes is right and nobody tells us what to do on the outside Period, uh, it it's governed by elders under christ and we rule with his word But that doesn't negate if somebody on the outside Had questions or concerns about some of my members or even myself Not too long ago. This happened. There was a family that was um Acting inappropriately in our church and we were dealing with it in a in a way that Uh, some other pastor who was a friend of this person Uh, I thought was wrong.  You stay in your church and and keep your nose out of it. Um, but I I listened to him his concerns I I gave him the courtesy. I think I was very Gracious in in in allowing to hear his complaints and for me to explain my rationale as to why I did what I did Now even and he appreciated that Eventually though he kept calling me and he kept challenging me and he kept expecting me to continue that great That courtesy and I finally told him look brother. You have to understand that That you have no authority over me We're brothers. I respect that I'm listening. I gave you a lot of courtesy. In fact probably more than I had to But at this point, I'm just going to tell you this is why we did it I explained it we did it this way our church is addressing it in house and that's that And I just had to kind of cut it off I think the the principle is the same with reference to macArthur. It's just a bigger and a more severe issue If uh, if if there's public can well, let me back up what I was going to say So if somebody if there's public accusations against me for example, or one of my elders one of my members I'm going to deal with it. I'm gonna I'm gonna uh, if it was against me I would allow my elders to say look These people are accusing me of of a b and c Then then I want you to do an internal examination and to see whether or not it's true or not And if it's all made public then I would I would I would I would expect my elders to make a public We've checked into it. This is what's happened. That's a courtesy I don't think that you then my elders have to do that because we do believe in local autonomy But I think we're trying to keep the balance of our main topic. Remember the odd church a church So we're being respectful macArthur is a member of a church He has elders. It's not wrong To to to level complaints against macArthur to his elders and his elders have the responsibility Especially given the large platform that he has to do an internal examination and to maybe public Make public their findings Okay, let's say they do that. Let's say they just they do that and they and they justify it Let's say that or maybe they don't even do that. They just say basically mind your business Well, what can you do at that point? What you can do is what you have the liberty to do and that is to not mess with macArthur anymore Or with grace church or whatever church that that's called I think the principal seiko is the base the principles that we started with have to be applied equally and fairly in all of these situations You have the right to to to level concerns against him You have the right to contact his elders to do some type of internal investigation And you also have the right not to mess with him if you come to the conclusion that he isn't qualified The people in his church They have the right to when they hear these accusations Then they need to look into it themselves and say Is macArthur guilty or is any other elder in this church guilty of behavior that disqualifies them? Then they have the right to leave if they choose to stay that's between them and god If the elders don't do anything about it, that's between them and god You can't do much more than then try to expose it and and and give people Evidence and the opportunity to to honestly before god Judge the material and make their own assessments. I've had I've in 20 years as a pastor I've I've got I've had many controversies with families in our church who have left And quite frankly I got a little group of people who don't like me And and I want you to talk about that pastor Mike I'm glad you're back because I was gonna ask you that question just to make it more relatable You've been falsely accused and and we've had conversations before you've reached out to me about some of these these ironic But yeah, if you can you know what I'm going to too much detail. I know you won't but Show your thoughts, please It's impossible say go not to have that and I can be Generally thankful that I haven't had it as much as some pastors But nevertheless there has and so what I do is I have to make sure my conscience is clean before god and man So if family a leaves accusing me of something Then I make sure my elders are aware of the accusations if it's necessary If it's made public and it's bled out into the congregation I may have to deal with it. Probably will have to deal with it publicly and explain to my people This is what family a said And I would probably let one of my other elders address it in the congregational meeting and speak on my behalf That kind of removes me if especially if it's a personal issue or if the family has an issue with my wife, for example As in the case That happened maybe 10 years ago. They accused her of a bunch of wickedness and then they left And so I had one of my other elders address the issue On my behalf so that I can be removed and I said to my elders Judge me and my wife with honesty Here's the here's the letter the accusations Judge me honestly They did that they said pastor you're innocent of all crimes Your wife is definitely innocent of the crimes and it was wretched and wicked from the do so So we had a congregational meeting one of my elders That didn't didn't go through all the details because it would have put my wife, you know in a bad light But basically this is what they said We've we've examined them. They're innocent. This family is left So we've determined as elders to just publicly censure them. That is to publicly rebuke them And that's how we left it. We so we didn't even excommunicate the family. We just publicly censure them and That's how it's been 10 years. That was 10 years ago So I got a handful maybe six eight families like that, you know, and they have left in In different levels of disgruntleness. I just need to make sure I just need to make sure this I go When they left they accused me of things that here's the thing usually People leave the church because of me because I'm the pastor. I mean, it's just the way it is right not always but usually right And sometimes they come to the church because of me and that's Usually the people that leave because of me don't come because of me come because you believe the same doctrine we do And it'll probably be better. But anyways best say that they they leave out. They're offended at me I just want to make sure that I'm before god. I have a good conscience and before man And I do have and all that doesn't mean I didn't sin in some of those cases If I can beat through those cases, I would do them differently But with a good conscience psycho I can stand before my master as I will and give an account for my labors in this church Now 20 years god willing maybe 40 years like x is heading towards or whatever it's going to be But when I dine stand before my lord, I will stand with a good conscience I didn't perfectly but I sincerely and generally overseeing the sheep and all accusations leveled up me I entertained them I dealt with them in the way that it was right publicly if necessary at least with my elders And I can and I can say that I didn't sweep any of them under the rug Or I didn't try to skirt away from any of them and and that's how I would hope to be that any church would be smaller big Our church has 50 families MacArthur's church probably has 500 families or more right, but nevertheless Accusations level need to be taken seriously and they need to be dealt with inwardly and there should be normally I don't think always but I think ordinarily if there are severe accusations Leveled at the elder. There needs to be an internal examination and probably some type of public Declaration now that's a courtesy right But I don't think that it's a necessity Being that we do believe in local autonomy So I think that the principle of autonomy has to be applied But here's the interesting thing this goes back to what we've been talking about There's the church in a church And those relate this way that that church macArthur overseas is Autonomous But that doesn't mean that other christians Especially because he has a universal ministry Right unlike most people He has universal ministry And so I think the church the church has a right to police that and level their concerns And I think that grace especially given that fact has more of an obligation to do an internal Examination probably even more than mine because I don't minister outside the four walls of my church I mean we go to the local missions. We do the street preach We do evangelism stuff like that. I preach at other church I'm preaching this sunday at another reformed Baptist church up in michigan But again, we're we're a close-knit group and we deal with each other much more intimately than I do with people outside of our Circles outside of our pond We have seven churches that are part of an ohio fellowship or reformed Baptist churches These are the guys I speak to regularly and these are the churches that I fellowship more more intimately I do believe that the basic principle of local autonomy in In local churches and the reality of a universal church those principles ought to be applied to the macArthur controversy And quite frankly any other controversy. Yeah It was just to be to be uh to let you know there was an internal investigation It was uh by one of the elders there that was asked and requested to have it He came back with the findings and and basically said that the church Like x said dropped the ball bottom line.  They put the woman out Sinfully she was she was an innocent party Um, and the elder encouraged uh john macArthur and this is all documented by the way I'm just just giving you an update on that. Um, the elder encouraged and exhorted the uh, the elder The elder board and also john macArthur to to to do what is right that he said there's still time to do justice And macArthur's words supposedly allegedly was forget it and they gave the man an ultimatum to them to read retract his investigation or to You know tender his resignation and so he left that following day. His name is uh, han show by the way, but Um, but yeah, so I I wanted to put that out there because again, I think that's important Um, yeah, you know autonomy. Definitely, you know, uh church autonomy, classical autonomy is definitely, uh, important but I think the problem comes when when the when the when the government or when the the Authorities get involved when you so let me ask you this with there if there's If there's abuse in your church Do you do you go by the the the local autonomy clause or do you uh, somebody reported to you a Abuse or a sexual assault or a child was molested or things like that. Well, how would your church respond? How did your church deal with those issues? well, we we we believe that there's a sword given to um the magistrate and There's a sword given to the church um, and we have to respect those fears And uh, we need a labor to make sure that we harmonize them accurately So if I have a member, he's still a citizen of this country And if he violates the law of the land He should be dealt with by the magistrate of the land Um, if there's an accusation of some criminal activity that that isn't just sinful But it's criminal Um, then it needs to be dealt with by the elders and there needs to be oversight and involvement of the elders This has happened. I mean on a number of occasions when there has been Uh, let me illustrate it this way. There was a young man Who was stealing drugs? from his employer He was a nurse And he was abusing those drugs at work Uh, when I found that out I told them he had to go tell on himself And if he didn't I would Um, and uh, he did They charged him He was fired. He didn't have to do any uh, any like prison time or something. I think they just fired him I don't think they even involved the police. Yeah, but the point but the point being is you As a member of our church, let's say you speak rudely to your wife. That's sin. Right, but that's not a crime. Right Now if you smack your wife That's a sin and a crime. Hmm. So we're going to deal with it ecclesiastically And and we're also going to force you to deal with it um civilly And uh, if he let's say for example in this case if if if he refused to deal with it civilly We would call the contact the police And force him to deal with it and then we would on top of that deal with it Ecclesiastically now let's say that he got mad one time and slapped his wife. Well, that's a poor example But and and so the the police are involved and and he's penitent They're working through it. He has to go to you know marriage counseling or something that the judge Sentences him to that. We would make sure he does that. We would give him counseling oversight Given the nature of that crime saker. We probably would publicize it in the church and say this is what happened and and and uh We're not excommunicating him because he he's repentant and we're working on him He's working not only with us, but the civil authorities And and and that would be how that works if he was if he was refusing to deal with the civil magistrate Then again, we would deal with it more publicly And if he refused to deal with them eventually we would excommunicate them in the church I think the both of them are there. There's Ecclesiastical authority and their civil authority and both of those work together And uh, shouldn't be severed though. They have to be distinguished. Got you got you Excellent thoughts on that Yeah, it's interesting that you know when we when we talk about what what corey said he said is he at fault? Um after 50 years of ministry um, and then corey mentioned guilty In the evidence and you know come to find out they were wrong Well in the 20 years that that david has been in prison. There wasn't a oh, we find out he was wrong Um, so to to argue that there's a possibility Yeah, true, but as of right now, this is the way it stands And in the same way that we affirmed macarthur And congratulated him Without knowing these currents someone would say well, it's just 20 years old Why are you bringing it up now? Because you evaluate things based on the light that comes However, there's a problem with that And the problem becomes that john macarthur is not a even though he's part of a local autonomous church His influence is not Confined within the local autonomous church His influence is global So with that being said for those of you that don't know me When I signed my record record deal with capital records There was a there was a couple of things that our managers in our Are the president of our company said he said you guys are now in the public eye You have no private life Every every autograph that you sign every person you say hello to Because you are forfeiting Your personal attributes because now you're in the limelight With that being said If john mac was like even like me or like mike waters insignificant, that would be one thing But he's not He's a global figure With a high extremely high bar For those of us that know like mike said there there's so many other individuals that that he gleams from other than john mac That's because he's he's gone deep in the well of theology to to say oh, this is a little bit better than that So i'm gonna go with this right it's like the fact that you know you you sit up here And chasing people that don't put sugar in a gris. Oh, how you don't know how sweet it is when you put sugar on gris But I digress So but because john mac is in the Limelight and because he's there and because he gives conferences and because he sets a standard Of things then he's somewhat accountable. So the next point will say, you know Does that disqualify him well in a local autonomous sense? You can't do nothing to him But the question becomes Would you disqualify him if you had the authority to If the authority was left in your hand, what would you do forget all the other particular games? What would you do me myself? I'd be like bro. You dropped the ball. Well Do you know how many people john macarthur has to deal with yes Do you know? Well john macarthur probably didn't catch everything not based on john macarthur standard Nothing happens without john macarthur's hand on it Nothing moves without john macarthur and when i'm not an outside dude I've seen this guy the guys that I know around this guy. So he sets a high bar of Perfection So when you don't adhere to that Are you suspect for scrutiny? Of course you are in the same way? I think I told you this about a year and a half ago sake.  So yeah, I think by my own standard if it came down to it I can't tell john macarthur what to do, but based on dropping that ball Instead of getting a nine out of ten he about five out of out of ten when you look at the quality you got Exposition you have pastoral you have Care uh, you have uh Governing friendliness with all that is so if I were to grade a pastor great expositionally But do you got a f or d in regards to how you handle the flock member? Yeah, um, and and that's if you have that so You know that would be a bit much. So when you talk about governing with the elders the outside influences the rationale The public accusations You got to remember audience Facebook was created For ivy lee college students To spend their time in their leisure That's why it was started It was started because individuals were dealing with the rigors of academia and intellectual content And they wanted to release and that release became facebook. So it's in it's an ai fake premise Made up idea About life And you have to keep it as such so you can't take things so much seriously You have people on facebook saying i'm all this and when you really look at them They're nothing or you got people talking about facebook I have this this this and this and it seems like that and they're nothing So with that being said if you're going to walk in those areas if you're going to be that guy Then don't be upset when people look behind the veil and say oh You're human Yeah Well, why are you getting at me because you said you weren't human You said you were superhuman you said that you wanted to have the attributes of dot all the eyes and cross all the t's so you know With brother mike and with other things there's this It's interesting that i'm back at this book because it's talking about The idea of christian philosophy And how worldly philosophy is insufficient. Maybe seiko we need to do another Live in regards to how masters Guys when they do counseling The real idea of what they're looking for outside of that counseling because mike said it If you curse your wife out that is sin But it's not breaking of the law, but if you put your hands on it it is breaking of the law Right, so how does one turn around it ignore romans 13 Justified because the bible says that we are going to judge the world now you've put a whole another different dynamic In the compliance of scripture Because now you're not even going through the governing authorities when you should but we could discuss that some other time So let's do this and with the with the last few moments. I want to play a series of clips Gentlemen, and this is again dealing with the qualifications of pastors. Okay, so i'm asking you brothers if you don't mind um Based on based on these series of clips and and and this this public statement these public statements of what what this brother did Does he Qualified to be a pastor if he or if he were in your church or wanted to be You know a part of the the elder the eldership or when he qualifies the pastor So let me let me play this and again, so it'll be a series of uh Cliffs that they're short but it's like it's about about 10 of them, but it's all concise together So I want to get your thoughts about it And uh, and let's let's let's get into it. Let's go Let's just see is he qualified Let's see is because This isn't your qualified day one and then going into year two. You don't have to worry about it. You've already Overcome that barrier that hurdle 10 years later, you don't have to worry about being qualified. No, this is what you have to be at all time I'm married at the time And again, I wanted to go back to that again. He's talking about biblical qualifications for an elder I want to make sure we all we're all clear on that. Okay. He said that these these qualifications don't change So this is this is brother corey's Statement regarding his position regarding being a being a pastor. Did everybody hear that when we play that clip again Just make sure we all we're we're clear with that Yeah, I got it. Okay. All right. Let me let me play it again one more time Then go right through it. Let's just see is he qualified Let's see is because this isn't your qualified day one And then going into year two, you don't have to worry about it. You've already overcome that barrier that hurdle 10 years later, you don't have to worry about being qualified. No, this is what you have to be at all time I'm married at the time and I'm focusing on ministry We move from Lubbock to Dallas because it's hard to make a living in Lubbock Even though the cost of living is low. I am an investment advisor. I'm working for Edward Jones And so after I leave Edward Jones I start my own firm and I've got a nice little office And I get a bigger office and an extra offices and multiple employees working for me and I'm filling myself I'm thinking I'm the baddest thing. Oh, by the way at the church. I'm one of the associate pastors and people are Patten young back brother core. Oh pastor core brother core. That was that was wonderful. And so you start filling yourself even more Well, here's what happened I'm always moving I'm trying to make this happen here at the church this happened here at home and this happened on the job Some of you all know this part of the story. I don't and I won't go too much into it But I got frustrated at home just because I'm moving too fast and I ended up Unfortunately having an affair The worst thing that I could ever do in my life Have this affair. What happened was here it is people are going to say well core. What happened to you? Why did you go to prison? What happened? Here's what happened because all these things were going on and I'm taking my my eye off the ball I said, you know what? I'm not going to let this business fold. So I took money from this guy's account covered the office expenses and when fees or commissions would come back in I'd put it back in their account Now it may take a month or so for it to come back in but in the meantime They need a statement and I would give them a statement that said They have this when it really they really didn't have that because in my my thought pattern No harm no foul. They're going to get their money back, right? I didn't have permission to do that obviously and the government does frown on that Well, the federal statute that I violated was the federal mail fraud statute statute title 18 Section 1341 mail fraud to send a fraudulent statement through the mail Well, it was my first time Even though I grew up rough in some bad neighborhoods. I actually never had a crime On my jacket before I got caught one time Um, with the with some other kids still still in some juice out the store But they just called my mother. I mean, I got a weapon, right? So nothing in my in my I'm saying in my jacket. That's how that's prison talk But nothing no rap sheet. No no priors So I'm thinking I am going to get you know A year two three years maybe three at the most possibly probation. Oh, I was floored. I didn't hear that, right You're telling you're my Former pastor what my pastor found my former pastor My mentor And this guy was was when I say sharp with the word sharp with the word You're telling the court to give me the maximum The court's looking for any excuse to give me Any kind of lenient sentence and you're telling to give me the maximum So what did the judge do? Well, if your character witnesses pastor this guy who says you're like a sudden him Gives you tells you I should give you the maximum then I'll give you the maximum On a no one gets the maximum on a plea all the while I'm thinking I got a chance to win my case because And here's a little technicality and it doesn't make me innocent Just mean that I wouldn't necessarily totally guilty of the charge would sound funny because When I sent those statements, I sent those statements by a local courier Not a FedEx or UPS because if they go out out of state then it makes it FedEx I mean makes it a federal case So I didn't use the us mails and I didn't use FedEx UPS I used a local courier and had the statement from them an affidavit signed from them And also an affidavit from my attorney saying that she didn't investigate Of course, she turned around and read and rescinded that But I'm thinking I've got a shot to get my case should be tossed out I have hope on that during this time and it's just me and god I did have my bible so I could I could read but it's just me and god Well, I get a letter the letter says the letter came from the united states court of appeal said your appeal appeal had been denied two to one, I believe it was the was the uh Two to one is was the ruling And so it was possible as a matter of fact even advisable that I would go ahead and file Siding new evidence to have the whole thing tossed out on his face. Everyone said you should win What did I do? I said at that moment, you know what? No, I'm not following anything At that moment and this was about six seven years left on my sentence No god Toss it away through the way It's in your hands Lord As the salmon says you vindicate me as a matter of fact when we look at that passage to psalms 26 one It says vindicate me, oh lord for I have walked in my integrity and I have trusted in the lord Without wavering and here it is Examine me, oh lord and try me test my mind and my heart for your loving kindness is before my eyes And I have walked in your truth You can only really pray that prayer if you have been walking with the lord And that's it. That's just that's the secret guys If you if you know and only you know better than anyone else If you've been walking in him only you know how you have behaved how you have spent time with him And so it's really kind of a test try me examine me as he says and see but how does he start off by saying What's the first thing he says he says vindicate me. Oh lord. I do want relief So when you let the lord defend you it's not saying that you don't want to to get any relief that you want to take Whatever comes that's not the point It's not give me at all because you don't have the ability to take all that can be given to you Or put on your shoulders But what you're doing is just saying lord If i'm wrong, you'll deal with me if i'm right You release me however it is I can testify what he's done for me because if he gave me one year and I got out I'd be the same But faith Isn't the getting through part It's the being with him while you're going through it. Are you with me? So no faith doesn't protect you from covid you can think it is you can think it doesn't then once you get it Then what happens to your faith? You can no faith doesn't keep you from losing money because when you do now what happens to your faith Your faith can't be based on the things that god gives you it has to be based on god who you can have I don't know if anybody's hearing this, but if you want 2022 to be successful spiritually You need to just focus on god and whatever you give me god I don't care what it is and I mean mean because we say it we're good at saying it You know what they say a pair of lips will say anything we're good at saying it But will you mean it one thing I can say the one thing the lord can testify on me God can testify on my behalf is that no matter how bad it got I still I still trust him And I'm laying in my bunk bed in prison and when that lady called my name tell me that you're going home We need your wife's address and phone number because we're getting ready to get you up out of here And I had time left you can't tell me you can't tell me what god won't do you can't sell me on anything I know who brought me to the dance when he was taking me home. Amen. I want you to see the passage says In glacial 69 and let us not grow weary in doing good for in due season In due season if we do not give up We will reap if we do not give up in due season Guys what that means is not when you think it's your time for the season Not when you think it's time, but in in due season in his season when he knows you're ready You shall reap your reward. Is it going to be a car? Probably not. Is it going to be a new husband or new wife? Maybe is it going to be all your bills paid? I don't know But you know whatever you're going to reap you know whose hand it's going to be attached to It's going to be attached to him. So do this for yourself Be faithful and mean it and watch 2022 be a blessing for you. Amen So I wanted to play that double those clips and my apologies for the for the length of it, but I wanted you to get the context of it. So Brother Mike if you want to comment for free, but I'm asking and framing in this question in this way if if a Brother and this was a this was a brother. This was not a person who did this in his You know prior to being saved he made the statement saying he was a christian Matter of fact, he was an associate pastor during the time of this this had occurred um In your local fellowship it would he would he qualified to be a pastor or is it something You know he admitted to the adultery admitted to to embezzlement and all this occurred while he was an officer Of a local church his pastor had also told the judge to throw the book at him You know, whatever it means for every reason it was he must because he wasn't knowing more than anybody else did at the time But nonetheless the question i'm asking and no pressure, but I just wanted to know because this was this is on video He's a public statements Um, how would your church respond to this or would he would this would this brother meet the qualifications of a pastor? If so why if not why not? No, he should never be a pastor again Uh, I've never heard anything about this dude That's the longest i've ever heard him talk And the other time I heard him talk is when you did that debate with him On I think it was on Calvinism or something Yes, and I and I that was the first time I in the only time I ever heard him talk Except for that Right there what you played so that's the only exposure I have to this dude seco But the what the debate that you had with him on Calvinism That did me in when he tried to say that Old Testament saints were not regenerate by the spirit He that was enough for me to say he should never be teaching and preaching if he's that Wrong on something so foundational And also too, let me just say seco. This is this is why I don't watch podcasts This is why I keep my nose to the grind and I stick my nose basically in old dead man's books Uh, because what a When he was talking that jazz i'm like who in the world what in the world and now Listening to that right there. It just it would be comical if it wasn't so sad You committed a see this is the the ecclesiastical structure of so many churches the ignorance of so many Christians I think if people are listening to this guy regularly, it's just a reflection of their own ignorance Because you commit adultery As a pastor You should never be a pastor again. You you no longer quantify if you repent You can be a productive member of a local church And you're not a second-rate citizen, right if if you repent and you restore it the church restores you right Then then you can serve the lord and and in capacities that that that that may exceed the the average member Maybe you can do this or that but you should never hold office again I think also the embezzlement that would be us even if he just had that that probably would disqualify him From being an elder ever again, but nevertheless, certainly the adultery He should never be a pastor again the whole notion that you can Commit adultery and then somehow Become a pastor again or remain a pastor is just so contrary to common sense and to the overall tenor of the holy scriptures It's just absolutely unbelievable That you have to actually state that and gonna get some people pushed back against it.  Amen I it's not that I haven't had impure thoughts and all that kind of stuff I struggle like every else every other man does right I can say with a good conscience Uh, I have I'm I have eyes for one woman Member the qualifications.  Yeah And uh, I'm sorry, but that disqualifies you it doesn't disqualify if you repent You could be a good member in good standing if you repent and and you're restored and you can even be a productive christian But nevertheless, you should never be I would never put him in the pulpit even as a layman I would never even probably give him the lectern and Sunday school class. That would be just me But nevertheless, he can be productive in other ways He can oversee the library and and counsel different people and stuff like that But nevertheless should never be from my perspective and I think it's the majority view In the pulpit or lectern and definitely never in the eldership period And I can say that's a good without knowing the brother and I don't again All I know is the 15 minutes He said in that kind in that discussion he had with you when he said old testament saints aren't regenerated by the spirit Oh, man Well, what in the world that for me that disqualifies him right there personally because it's too big of an issue This ain't no small thing You don't believe that old testament saints were were converted and born again By by the holy spirit. How were they saved? He went on to talk about he thought that they were saved by works or or this and that that's the ugly Old school original dispensationalism And man, I couldn't mess with that. So and that statement all the things he just said right there just confirms the fact that He's probably a christian brother who's exceedingly confused and he needs to stop teaching on every platform including podcasts I would say there's also is to also pass the mic just for the record And I couldn't find this video because I forgot what it was, but now it's all making sense And actually made one chime in on this one, but he did he did a podcast did a video Going through these qualifications and I knew I knew nothing about this and I knew nothing about any of this stuff until until recently But he's planning on starting another church once his once his Once his parole or his house arrest stuff is over because he was released early doing the For the for the trump early release program, but he's planning on Starting starting another church Out of state. He's talking about not not talking about doing here in texas. He said he's talking about going out of state Or maybe moving out of state to do this, but but my concern is Is that people are saying that I'm disqualified because I'm mean But I've been with my wife for 23 years. My god's grace faithfully been to her and you know saying, um And I haven't sold anybody's money I'm not taking advantage of anyone and then the audacity and the and the temerity to name his his his uh, His investment firm or whatever that call it was called christ Minor investments of christ minor something He asked christ to it And this is all under under the guys and under the the rules of being A professing christian. He said it in the video. So Again, I wanted to ask you because again, I wanted to know if this were your if this were your, you know member We would never allow that and I don't think any other christian should let me just say this to uh Say it before you get x's input Um, and it goes back to again our basic premise tonight of universal and local churches The universal in the local church So let's say he goes off and starts a church That's wrong for him to do so, but but he's free to do so. We can't stop him Right all we can do is urge him not to warn him not to put out Objective content so that those who are going to join with him can listen And make for themselves a decision right if they if they listen Judge all the facts check out all the facts or are they Are examining the facts right and they still align with him Hey, that's blindly to blind. Yeah Then you just say Exactly and god would deal with that but so people so he's free to start a church. We can't stop him right And and people are free to join that church if they want to but we're also free because of the universal church To to set out the evidence and let others decide And I think that's that's just I think that just brings us back to what we started with those basic Categories and principles and how they worked out with a macArthur With 5 000 members Or this dude with five, right? There are differences. I agree with what x said when your ministry exceeds your your church Intentionally, so then there's more responsibility Right, um, and I think there ought to be more scrutiny Right, but nevertheless the basic principles apply for me with 50 families This dude with five families or macArthur with 5 000 families, right? Absolutely x Quick thoughts, sir. Before you leave or we're not go ahead man Do quick thoughts really? Really you want me to do quick thoughts bro? Well, I ain't want to hold you up, but go ahead take it I'm I'm I'm grieved man. Yeah And the reason I'm grieved is because there's only two ways to work this scenario And you know, we both we fight, but it's not really a fight Right, you use the term spiritual lesbianism, right? What is that? What is spiritual?  Yeah I know you ain't heard this But I'm gonna say it and I mean I I called Cory and I asked him I said, bro You got any issues with me? He said no, I ain't got no issue with you But spiritually When you claim to be a pastor and you're a shepherd And you go screw with the flock That's a form of spiritual bestiality Hmm Because you're not as a as a shepherd you're supposed to protect the flock Not become Emotionally enticed with the flock In other words when I stand before Emmanuel I put on a robe And if you notice I take off my shoes Shoes in part because when moses was in Egypt and I mean in monsignor I there was there was an act thing that he did he took off his shoes because he was on holy ground And when we were in seminary we learned that the reason that the pastor is supposed to wear a robe Is because it veils all of his personal attributes You don't get a chance to see the type of tie that he wears You don't see the preference in his suit. You don't see anything worldly in him So when he speaks behind the letter in the robe all that you are concerned with is the gospel message Now when you take the liberty of the power of the holy spirit as you're preaching And then you in turn become intimate with the flock That's horrible. I don't look kindly at dudes that abuse What pastoring represents Let me keep it 100 ain't nobody thinking about you Ain't nobody thinking about Mike Nobody's thinking about me They are attracted to the message of Christ And it's something that happens intimately when you open up the text and you exegete Everyone was circumcised Because they were being washed in Circumcision at the most intimate part of their being And when you feed the flock you feed them with the word of God and they're thirsty for it And when you take that spiritual thirst And combine it with sexuality And it's outside the sacred part of the bedroom. I don't believe you can come back from that. Now, that's just me talk Are y'all hear me? Yeah So when you when you abuse that And everything that I know from taking classes of of of you know counseling and things nature There are certain things that you just don't you you it's hard to remove the mean Men that interact with pedophilia. It is a struggle that they will have Even if they get over they will deal with it the rest of their life So there's a reason why individuals have to in some sense Always register because they never get beyond it. I personally I think that when a person has violated their marriage bed They struggle with that option all of their lives and like Mike said Hey, dude, you could be a great member You can even have your youtube page and do it. You can do apologetics Right, but when it comes to being an elder over the flock And someone coming to you intimately to correct Admonish and build their lives I don't I don't believe so. No, if Corey came to me and said, yo, uh, I want to be a pastor I'm like, bro, you can't do that. No, not not not any manual and I get the fact that you might say Well, who are you who are you pastors? I know who am I but I'm nobody But this is what I will tell you I don't have a youtube page Because I respect my elders I respect the men that invested in me I respect those that laid hands on me and I'm accountable to them So the 13 men That put their name on my ordaining council And they charged me to be instant in season and out of season Seven out of those 13 said there is a point of no return. Don't pass it And I have it and I won't Because understand this Brother Mike is not pastoring because he desires to because the only desire that he has the pastors to be pleasing Under God, but trust me it is a It is a passion pain that nobody can describe That's why most men real men that are preaching they leave the ministry Why because your heart is in it your emotion is it and you stand there to be embarrassed by everyone So what would make a person honestly be a pastor nothing but the police god now once you violate that you The office should be more important than your wants The office should be more important than your desires The office should be more important than anything on the planet because you never want to bring a reproach to your christ When you're sitting as shepherd I'm done yeah Wanted to um play this last one. This one's very very short about 10 seconds mike and xerricks Uh, it's the infamous skin in the game This is someone who asks them the question If would you go to grace community church if eileen grew your daughter meaning this woman was being abused Everybody knew about it. You put them out Would you entrust your would you would you entrust a church to to to allow your daughter to go there Knowing that they don't protect women that they don't you know This is saying put it into context if if if your daughter were if your if your daughter was to go to a church Would you allow your daughter to go to a church that does not protect women and and here's what uh, Cory had said would you go to grace community church if eileen gray was your daughter? Would I go to grace community church? Well, it will see that's why you can't answer a question because that would affect me personally now I've got some skin in the game It's like the guy that jumped on my daughter or did something violate my daughter. Um, could could could I could I sit On the on the bus right beside him. No Could you yes, why? See what we do sometimes is we break we want to make the emotional argument and then that governs That would be hard for me. I mean, I let's not treat my I look at my daughters as though they're in gold Man, do I do I look at your daughter's the same way I look at my daughter? No There's a there's four billion other daughters on the planet. I don't look at them the same way look at mine Mike let me ask you this question if if my if my daughters would have come over to your house Would you protect my children as they as though they were yours? Of course Even though they don't have your DNA or nothing like that No, I uh I I I I look at all the girls in our church as daughters Hmm older ones as sisters, right? Older yet ones as mamas, right? We only have a few grandmamas. We got most of our people are young But uh, definitely and uh, I would say this to say come Um, I I personally would never join uh grace just because of my theological differences and convictions Correct, but if I but if I were to go there I couldn't join the church without doing due due diligence and examining all the evidence uh, that's Set out there and objectively make a clear Rational decision whether or not I could in good conscience put my family under that ministry It's the same with us If somebody comes to our church They maybe they can find stuff on the internet where people accuse me Or they might know somebody who left the church disgruntling they come and they say, you know, we like you We like the preaching, but we've heard this and that nits Well, let me explain to you what happened, right and possibly I may have to bring a second witness like a co elder And then I'll let them make a decision and at the end of that say, you know We love you or we like the preaching and but we just can't This is just too much for us There's too much evidence that seems to at least muddy the water. Hey, that's your choice again. It goes back to Church membership is a freedom It's voluntary And uh, but I hope they would be able to say, you know what we heard this and that about you But now that we've seen you Personally, we've gotten to know you for some weeks You came over to our house and you so graciously Accommodated us in answering all of our questions and concerns and we believe that the accusations leveled against you are unwarranted Again, they're free to make that choice, but it comes back to the freedom of the people to objectively consider the facts I'm not trying to put out any fires Or or to somehow cover over any objective facts out there, right or any accusations out there, right? Right. Look, I have a good enough conscience say go that any Accusation ever leveled against me in my 10 years as a minister or 20 years as a minister 10 years as a chaplain You can scrutinize that you can overturn or you can look under every rock in those 30 years And I'm willing to stand by my actions and confess any wrongs that I've done if you go before that Come on. I'll be well before january 1994 Then I just have to humble myself and say, you know what? I did that You know, it's like I I guarantee this man. I would never be elected for any A political office because I got too. There's just too much dirt on me. All I can say is yeah, I did do that Right. I did that. I did that. I did that. I've been arrested 25 times. I have those felonies I have those babies But that was before I became a christian. Come on, bro. Come on But but that's not gonna work politically then so right so be it. Yeah at the end of the day, brother I'm not I don't glorify my past. Amen. But it is my past And I've come to learn that I have to use it as a means to humble me And also to make me thankful for the grace of god. That's for come on, bro Come on remember what Martin Luther once said when sage reminds him of his past He says thank you for reminding me of what I was that I might rejoice in what I am Come on, man. And so I I'm glad I I can say that with a good conscience Yeah, I've never just turned a completely deaf ear to any accusation I've always addressed things head on openly and honestly And I think I believe that all my people and anybody with common sense And the lord jesus who is infinitely wise and perfect in that day of judgment He'll say mike You've been faithful to me not perfectly But generally and for for the for the sake of my own blood and my righteous. Yes Oh my holy spirit that's enabled you to be faithful Come on, man Alone into the joy of your reward and that's I can say that brother right now and I hope and pray as x said I'll be able to say that by his grace 10 years out 20 years out 30 years out. Yes 40 years out. Come on, bro Yes Had to give it to you. All right now Um real quick. We're gonna wrap this up.  Um go right ahead, bro. I I must be consistent Because there are some guys That are looking at this video that know me and I told you in the in the in the in the beginning of this video that I was ordained in 92 And I was always a Baptist boy So I come into my ordaining council They weren't just 13 men there. There were there were a lot of men there And a lot of the men was like wait, man, aren't you?  Weren't you this? Weren't you that? Weren't you the other? Yeah And those dudes are like, no, we ain't about to do that No, they refuse to and the 13 men were like, well, no, we're gonna affirm him So in thinking about it, if we're talking about Baptist polity What would you do because I'm I'm listening to brother Mike in a whole bit What would you do if all of a sudden Corey came back and said I feel that God is calling me to to preach And then the elder board said, yeah, and then the congregation Said we want to try it Even though I would be sitting there saying uh, that dude ain't gonna do this It's like we were talking earlier Seiko and I said that the only way that I could rationalize that Is if somebody vouched for And had the covering over Corey over an extended period of time to where they could watch his life Because we are talking about local autonomy And even though you have many that would turn around and say that no this brother's not this this this this a number one Mike said it there's nothing stopping him from going to get a church There's nothing stopping him from doing to do his own thing and because we live at a time where baptist churches are just doing stuff He could technically come in below the whole church away with greek and all this other type stuff and they get in gordon and say, yeah, aha But that still doesn't remove the discipline So in and thinking about what you said if he came to mania, I'm like, uh-uh And because at Emanuel we kind of it's not that we changed the The disposition, but it was congregational rule we were installed And we work as a congregate elder rule type assembly to where john and i is follow me as I follow christ As i'm following christ as a church member you're supposed to submit to what I do because you're following me So with that being said if Corey The only way I could I couldn't see it But if it happened he would have to sit up under somebody and in the national baptist fellowship You would have to sit up under a proctor or a mentor and he would have to evaluate your life over a period of time And you would be looking at anywhere between eight to 12 13 years of scrutiny And in that if he passed that then it would be that that type of scenario With him, you know, so But man, I appreciate it. It's it's a 7 13. Yeah, man. My brother gave me to go ahead I appreciate all of you guys Um, allowing me to come on and talk about baptist perspectives Uh, I like that and in the only way you're gonna see me again Is somebody got to invite me to come talk because i'm not doing a channel Uh, and i'm not doing youtube and why because I believe that this is supplement work and um You know, it doesn't take away from the local fellowship and we need we need more commitment to the local felt We need more time there Because that's where the real ground work is done. So I appreciate you. You know, I love you boy Hey, Mike, we need we need to get together man. Um, and and holla. I love you too But thank you guys so much and have a blessed evening. All right, brother. Take care, man. Thanks again Yes, sir. Yes, sir. All right. We have some mic any closing thoughts for I'll let you go, man Uh, no, I say go just to reiterate what what x just said, uh, that I am convinced to the local church needs to get uh, the priority The largest share of our efforts time energy prayers But uh, that doesn't negate the place for para church, uh Ministries as we believe in the church and we believe in local churches and I think if you put those together that uh, those principles have something to say to every topic that came up tonight including the one the church in california including this other brother that Corey and including all of us. It's just a basic principle. I think it's simple biblical and very relevant to all of the things discussed, but I appreciate you appreciate acts and Pray that god's blessing would be upon you and your dear family, brother. Thank you again We got your information here heritage reform Baptist church canton the youtube site is here on the screen for those who may be interested In knowing more about pastor mike water. He's a great exposit of the word. Love him to death. Um, Never met the brother face to face, but lord willing one day we will because this brother owe me some barbecue So i'm gonna hold him to that I'm gonna hold him to it, but brother man. Thank you man.  Thank you brother so much for coming on Thank you. Thank you. Good night brother. All right, brother. Good night. Good night All right y'all so that is tonight's broadcast that is tonight's live hope you all been encouraged been blessed been informed um yeah, so Let's be obedient to the word of god. We're not talking about perfection. We're talking about direction and uh If the word of god is the final authority, then that's what we're called to submit to the word of god. So, um Everything we do prior to christ is under the blood everything we do post christ We are forgiven, but of course there are always consequences To things that we do and god is gracious. He does not treat us as our sins deserve. We thank god for that I'll be first and foremost to tell you that myself Thank god that he does not treat us as our sins deserve, but nonetheless. We do not want to trample upon the grace of god either as well and so May we pray for god's grace to be upon us all Things that we need to work in our lives to make sure that we do not give the enemy room to To the fame and blasphemy in the name of our god. Let us do that as well too. So Thank you, brother x and thank you, brother mike Both of these pastors are definitely appreciate their their counsel and their Wisdom and their guidance as well too. So, um, definitely appreciate that. Anyway, um brothers and sisters, of course, you know as you as you So choose do so. Please like subscribe share the notification bell Let people know about the video that people know about this channel. This is how the Content gets pushed out. Um, and we know that the mob and those uh, don't care for this ministry Are trying to do everything they can to shut it down Even people digging in the crates trying to have me report it to youtube. Yep, that's right Have me report it to youtube and and have get warnings and possible strikes for old videos that i've done back in 2020 So, uh, but please support the ministry if you are able to do so Uh, we do appreciate that bcb merchandise bcb gear as well. You can uh go to the uh, the video Description under below and you can get the information there as well too. So thank you. Thank you all so much moderates Thank you for holding it down YouTube, thank you for watching facebook family. Thank you for watching Uh, tune in tomorrow night action out on this channel. I'll be on Brother jp's channel. I'll be debating chris. Uh lasar chris lasala, excuse me chris lasala tomorrow night at 8 p.m. Eastern standard time I will put the link uh in my on my channel lower than tomorrow Um, and uh, you can go over there and check it out and uh, ask for your prayers Ask for god's grace and his wisdom for me to respond and what he has called me to do So anyway, that is it. That's my time I thank you all so much for yours and y'all know the drill whatever you do Do all the ground of god. God bless. Thank you for sharing this night. God bless you.