The leadership of the 10th National Assembly will be inaugurated in June and the APC is currently in crisis over what some members of the party have described as skewed arrangements that reinforces injustice and enhances inequity. We'll be taking a look at the crisis rocking the APC today on the breakfast. The beach experience in Nigeria is different for various people, sometimes according to generation or location. What is the beach going experience like now, especially here in Lagos? We'll be taking a look at that also on the show this morning. We'll also be taking a look at headlines on some national dailies without the press where we have an analyst join us to look at the headlines. Good morning and welcome to The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. I am Maureen. And I am Nyamgul. It's a pleasure to have you this morning. It's a Friday morning and thank God it's Friday. And that's why it's good that we're going to be looking at some kind of relaxation and zeroing in on the beach experience. The theme for this morning is having a fun time in Nigeria no longer inexpensive or simple. How is your fun time? Is it costing you an arm and a leg? Or is it what it used to be? I doubt that. Nothing is what it used to be. Nothing is what it used to be. Even dating is not what it used to be. At some point people were going to where there was nature. They go to parks, the theme parks. They go to waterfalls. They go to the beach. They go to places that they are connected with nature. They give flowers as gifts and all that. Now I'm not sure you're going to give any girl any flower. They will say, I don't chop vegetable tyre. I don't send you. They want something else and everything is really expensive. Values are changing. Things change. Change is the only thing in life that's constant. Just because I appreciated flowers and sent them lengthy letters when I was a teenager doesn't mean that if I decide that a car would be good this time. That's you this time. That doesn't mean that I'm no longer a good person. You have metamorphosed into that. I'm saying the generation of nowadays I'm not sure they will appreciate the flowers that guys in those days could give to ladies and the kind of letters they would write, poetic letters to their... Poetic sentence. But nowadays I'm not sure anybody has the time to read long letters anymore. I'm not sure anybody has the time to collect flowers and say that is a love gesture. In Nigeria I'm not talking about outside. So when people say Nigerians are not romantic, Africans are not romantic, and I ask them, will you accept a flower as a Valentine's gift? Nobody will in Nigeria. But any man that gives a woman only flower on a Valentine's day also has problems. In Nigeria. In counseling. In Nigeria. That's what I'm saying. Especially in Nigeria. We are Nigerians. Nobody wants that. You want to go to an eatery. You want to go to a cinema. You want to go to other places. Of course values have changed. Things that constitute fun have changed as well and all that. We understand that. But at the end of the day you find out that it is the little things that really matter, you know. So after all the money, after all the everything, what you will be seeking. For instance, if you're married to a millionaire, multi-millionaire or billionaire, and he has no time for you, you'll find out that it's the attention that you really want. Not the money that maybe attracted you to the house. And attention costs nothing. I think the key word in Nyamgo is balance. Alright, so if you give your wife money, gifts and all of that, you're not there. Something is missing. And if you're always there and you're not bringing money, you're not solving problems, you're not adding value. Something is missing. What value are you talking about now? Adding what value? Are you hungry? Are you food? Everything is there.   You know, you got to balance things out. But what I'm saying is all those things might be there. All those things might be there. You're paying the rents. You're providing the food and all that. But at her bed day, you cannot provide a range rover, for instance, like some other people will do. So if they put you side by side with the person who can provide the range rover, a lot of people will go for that. Even though you are here giving the balance, but the balance on the other side of the financial benefits is not good enough. They will leave you, go to that person whose financial balance is good. And then after that, they will come back and date you and be in that person's house. I mean, how does that even work? Some of them date their drivers and their house boys and all that. I know someone who, at the end of the day, married the house boy. The house boy, yes. And the man was an ambassador. He had everything and all that. Of course, he will be doing his diplomatic duties, going from place to place and all that. And the wife resorted to becoming the girlfriend of the house help. I wouldn't even say it's because she didn't love her husband anymore. I think it's because the husband failed in his responsibilities as a man in the house. And as I said, balance is the word. No, but the question is, did he fail? Because, okay, I'm an ambassador. You married me as you married a diplomat. You knew my schedule of work. It's not that if I'm at home, I'm unavailable. But if I have to travel, maybe three weeks in a month and I'm always only available for one week. And inside that one week that I'm available, I'm available, like in everything. But because I'm away three weeks in a month, you say I do not love you much or I did not do enough that I should have done, should I have left my work because of you? So if you're talking balance, balance according to who? You are the woman you are at home. You know the kind of man that you married. But at the time that he should give you attention where he is at home, he's giving you. But his duties are taking him out and you accuse him that he didn't do enough. You're painting a different scenario here and I'm good. This is different from whether you have money or whether you don't have money. You're talking about the relationship failure. You see that there's lack of communication or the woman is not a virtuous woman in the sense that she doesn't see any problem sleeping with another man while she's married to another. So these are two different things. And I was talking about balance. You can also look at it from a man's perspective for instance because it's not only women that leave their spouses, there are men who also leave their wives.  Eventually the man begins to feel isolated in his own home, home no longer feels like home. And so what do such men do? Sometimes you find them looking outside.  Just like you talked about ignoring in the sense where the man is a diplomat and has to travel. No, but this is not ignoring. This is someone having to do his duty. Because in London, I'll be calling your wife almost on the daily, you be conversing. We have video calls and all of that. I know couples who live... Why this is an issue, why this is an issue is that for me, the man did not feel to call, to be there when he should be and all that. But his duties were taking him out. So it's not a scene.  I saw one guy was telling me that he had a girlfriend that came. He didn't know that the girlfriend had a fiance or something. And this girlfriend came with a bedsheet. Yes, a bedsheet. To his house. So he didn't know why that happened. Then he found out in the morning when the fiance called her. She had to remove the bedsheet from her bag, spread it so that it would look like she is at home. And then answered the call seamlessly. It was no problem. So what I'm saying is that, yes, sometimes these things about neglect happen. You may not blame the person, but sometimes even when these things do not happen, you find out that what really attracted you to go marry someone like that, who is a multimillionaire for instance. If you marry a multimillionaire, you wouldn't know he would be having meetings, he would be traveling and all that.  Then you get there. Everything is being provided. Everybody is not everything. So like you said, balance. So when someone is thinking about a relationship, you're thinking about so many other things, also think about the fact that there are little things that could matter more than the money that you're thinking about. So long as you get enough to foot your bills and all that, and then the other side is also being satisfied. At the long run, you find out that you will stay in love longer and you will be satisfied longer than when there is one side. Either too much love without any other thing coming, or too much other things coming without love. That's my very word, balance. Whatever the situation is, are you marrying a rich man? Are you marrying a busy woman? Whatever it is, let there be balance. There must be friendship. There must be love. There must be respect, mutual respect. And also it takes me back to what some marriage counsellors would say. So many people spend more time preparing for all the ceremonies and not the marriage itself. Because if your mind goes beyond that first stage of the pump and purgentry, and you begin to think about how to make your partner happy, then the question of do I love him? Are we friends? Are we compatible? Do I enjoy his company? Do I enjoy her company? Would definitely begin to roam around in your mind and you begin to assess the level of closeness that you share. And so if you have a close relationship, if you are friends, even if the man travels three months in a row for work, it would not make you cheat on him and it would not make you leave him for another person. You would not feel isolated because there is that trust, there is that understanding, and then the communication. Why can't my flower give you trust?  Any man that gives a woman only flowers on Valentine's Day in this Nigeria needs counseling. That's what I'm saying, isn't that what you're saying? You know, I give you flowers, I take you to the beach. We are in tune with nature, we write poems together, we talk. Yeah, that is good, because I thought you were saying just hand you flowers and that's it. But I'm not taking you to the cinemas. I'm not taking you to an eatery that they sell bottle water of 100 naira for 800 naira just because I want to feel good and all that. We're just going to a place where we can be together on our own, share the stories, laugh and all that. A lot of people will not accept that. You have to go to an expensive place. It's an individual thing. So that's what I'm saying. The people of your, the people of before used to value these little things, togetherness, friendship that you're talking about. But don't forget in the past some of the things that we have today we didn't have them, especially in Nigeria. Now let's just be honest. What I'm saying is people used to value things differently. Friendship, companionship was a big thing then. If you want to look at a model, for instance, there are certain types of people that you look up to that this is what I want to become. I want my child to become nowadays, in those days, but nowadays even parents to show how values have changed. Even parents buy laptops for their children and send them to go and train to become Yahoo. People do that nowadays. We had Yahoo Mothers Association. Yes, we have, okay. We have people, I saw the story the other day, two days ago or three days ago, where someone said his mother drugged the sister for him to sleep with her so that his Yahoo business will flourish. So these are your children. You drug one and tell the other one to sleep with her. It's terrible. Some of them even ate them when they're doing these ritual killings and all that. So values have changed. And that is why a lot of the problems that we have now we do have, because we need to know that value is not financial. Yeah, and then you also need to know yourself. When you know yourself, you know what you're looking for in a lady.  Whether you blend, whether you are compatible. Compatible. Yes, is this person looking at life the way I am looking at life or not? Then you stop if it is not, there's no compatibility. By the way, there are some that are very good for dating and others that are good for marriage. Oh well. So you can decide, let me just date this one and go. When it's time, I'll look for my life. Okay, just a little bit about security, not security now, traffic. Today, there will be, there will start diversion in some places here in Lagos. We already know what we go through whenever these diversions are made. So in line with the, an ongoing rehabilitation of the bus rapid transit, that's a BRT corridor from Ikorodu to stadium, the Lagos state government has announced that traffic will be diverted at a Golonto junction from Friday, that's today, the 12th of May to 19th of May, 2023, a duration of one week to enable seamless repairs of the failed section. Allaying the fears of the citizens, the commissioner for transportation, Dr. Fedrick Oladeinde, explained that traffic inbound Majidun and beyond from Oba Sekumadi would be diverted to a Greek to make a U-turn to access their desired destination while traffic inbound Oba Sekumadi from a Greek will be diverted to Majidun to make a U-turn and continue their journey. So if you are on that axis or you apply that axis all the time, you know that there's a diversion and if you need to move early enough because you think that your journey might be delayed a little bit, do so. It starts today and it's going to last for one week from this Friday to next Friday, that repairs or whatever they are doing their rehabilitation will be done. So in the corridor axis to stadium, that's what is going to happen from today. So be advised. Yes, be advised. And from that traffic report, we'll move over to top trending. And the first top trending we'll be looking at is Supreme Court of John's Namdekhanu case until September 14th. Well, delayed resolution to case is slapped to justice and trial is one of the sentiments up in the air over this matter. But there you have his picture there. His doctors have said his health has been threatened by lack of care. Yeah, I know that the federal government might have reasons why they are doing this, but since the courts have made pronouncements, I think they should just obey these pronouncements and what are they really afraid of? What are they really, really, really afraid of? Well, the next administration is coming to inherit a case that is very controversial. He has not been pronounced guilty, as it were. So if there's continued imprisonment without declaring guilt, then why is he being held? So is it because the federal government has the past to do and undo, as we say in Nigeria, or not? We should show respect to the law. And that's the whole thing that makes a country what it should be. That is what strengthens our democracy. Respect the law. That is all. Don't buy the law. Don't go against the law. Don't behave with impunity and all that. That's what makes a country. And every time people talk about establishments, the institutions are not strong enough and all that, the institutions are there with all the laws. But we're not ready to obey the laws. And the people who should make us obey the laws are the ones that are flouting the laws. They are the ones that are breaking the laws. The thing is, there's also Nyamgo. Even if the government has a strong case, if the government is not seen to respect court's ruling on that case, it then begins to weaken the strength that the government may have on that case. So you are holding someone, you're accusing someone of terrorism, for instance, or treason, and court rules in this way follow the court ruling while you pursue further your argument. It will then give respect to whatever charges you may have against that person. People will begin to look at these cases objectively. But when the government begins to disobey court rulings on that matter, then it becomes suspicious that people begin to wonder, what exactly is the matter in this case? And then there is this issue that even court cases, any other court case, the federal government has a tendency of not obeying or the people in government have a tendency of not obeying. If, let's say, there are 100 cases and the federal government has obeyed 99, and this one is the only one that we're seeing that they are not obeying, we'll start to think there must be a serious issue. But right now we know that they have a precedent of not obeying court cases, so it will be as if, okay, is there a normal thing that they're doing? So whether there's a security problem or not, we already do not believe them. And that's why it's good for government to build trust, so that anything you do, we know that, okay, you must have a reason. That's the benefit of someone who is trustworthy, enjoys, that he must have a reason that he's doing this. This is so unlike him or her, but he's doing this because there's a reason we may not know and we'll believe you. But now, who believes it? The danger in that is that if a standard is set in that motion, if a standard is set, the standard of disobeying court rules and injunctions, then our democracy, as we know it, or as we knew it, we may never have it again. I know that I've been caught and said, look, our democracy is different from that of America and all of that, but can our difference be of international standard, please? Even as we differentiate it from that of the U.S. or whichever, can we be of international standard so that we can be emulated, emulate Nigeria's democracy? It's beautiful, it's this, it's that, it's top notch. And not that we flout laws and that we... If we built our differences into our democracy, it might have worked well.  I cannot do that, no matter how civilized I become.  So it's not about being dirty, it's about what we have been told to do as the right thing.  Okay, it's fine, a lot of people do it. I will not do it. I'm a local man, village man. But the thing is, if you copy something, know that you have your own differences. So I see something on the internet, someone wears it and it's very good. I have a pot belly, the person doesn't have. It fits him so much and I go and get it. I wear it, it comes out some way and you say what I ordered and what I got. What does that mean? You think about your body and see what fits you. So that's what democracy, the democracy we're practicing here is. We borrowed it from somewhere where things work differently from how it works here. Why not we build these differences into it and see how... Internalize. Yes, we can internalize it and then make it global. It's not the same democracy that they have in America that they have in China, but it's still democracy. It's not the same one they have in North Korea. It's not the same one they have in Saudi Arabia or anything. It's not even the same one they have in the UK. Where they have a monarchy and then they have the prime ministers. It's still democracy, but we just borrowed it and anytime it works in our favor, we follow. Anytime it doesn't work, we jettison it and all that. It's not good. If in the democracy that we have, we recognize, for instance, the first lady, let's put it in our constitution. But now it's not in our constitution, but there's money voted to the office of the first lady, which should not be. And there are functions that the first lady takes, which should not be. It's not in the constitution. So now why not we say, okay, a man's wife is very important in our culture. So let's find a way to put it in the constitution that when somebody becomes president, his wife will have XYZ functions to do. Well, you've just given the incoming government something to consider. Let's look at the top trending number two. Platter workers beginning deafening strike over salaries. They actually declared in a notice of strike issued by the Joint Negotiating Council, Platter Chapter on Wednesday night in Joss. Yeah, I'm just laughing. Why does it have to always result in a strike? You know, why would someone come to be a governor and resolve not to pay salaries? Salaries that you do not even take home. Sometimes you spend more money on transport and then loading your phone and doing the job that you're supposed to do, that you don't even find that money after the first week in your bank account. Sometimes the money is spent before it gets into your bank account and someone is still owing you. How many civil servants end up to 150,000? And then how many people can go a whole month when you have to pay school fees? You have to feed your family. You have to dress and all that. You have to travel. And then there are emergencies that come. And then there are family members that think that you are working. You put all those bills and 150 is still enough for you. And then someone is still owing you. Owing you months. That people were earning 60,000. There you have the face of the governor of Platter States. It's terrible. It's a long owing salary. Well, the strike followed the expiration of four days extension of the earlier seven days of timetable given to the government to pay salaries. It really hurts me. It really does hurt me when I see people in states being owed salaries. I mean, that is the barest minimum that you can give them. This is the barest, especially, and as I said repeatedly, for an OPEC nation, member nation as Nigeria, you know, when you see the way people in Saudi Arabia and these other OPEC member nations live, the way their citizens live life.  They live large. They live large. Oh, God of mercy. So you see our people here. Just be owed the little salaries that they are supposed to be paid. And then you ask yourself, why do people go into offices knowing there are challenges there without having solutions that they can proffer? We are tired of being reminded by some of these failing governors. We're tired of being reminded of the challenges and reasons why they couldn't pay salaries. These issues were there before you fight for these offices. If you didn't have a solution to it, waiting you to go find one there. And then after four years, they will not want to continue. I think it's just an act of irresponsibility because most times these salaries, these monies are there and you're doing some other things. For instance, some of them will build flyovers and then owe the people the salary, people who are working, they owe them salaries. Now, take the case of Oshun, for instance. They were being owed salary for months and the next governor that came, a delegate that came, paid the salaries. Did he pay from his pocket? No. That means the money was there. It was just not prioritized that, okay, we have to do this.  You must not owe. Every other thing that you want to do, you can do. If you say the burden of paying salaries is too much and you want to cut down, you will have a plan so that even if you are downsizing, the people who are living will have an environment that they can thrive without having to work for you. Yeah, the private sector should thrive to be able to absorb it. Look, no government can provide all that their citizens need. And I do wish that when we sit here to talk about Nigeria, to talk about the things we see on the headlines, we'll have more positive things to talk about because Nigeria is ours and we need to project it in good light, right? But the headlines are not looking... They're not giving us things to talk about that project the country in good light. So I just hope that this incoming administration, both at the state level and at the federal level, would change the narrative. Because Nigeria is such a great place, we are so blessed. There's no part of Nigeria where you throw anything and it wouldn't grow on its own. The lands are so arable and blessed. Anyway, we do hope that the political weather will change. And talking about weather, let's just take a break and look at what the weather actually is right now before we come back for off the price. Stay with us.


On today's toolbox, in the time it takes our producer to take a 20-minute walk, Sam Bazoo is going to review the state of mobile development. Hi, welcome to Visual Studio Toolbox. I'm your host Robert Green and joining me today is Sam Bazoo. Hey, Sam. Hey. Welcome back on the show. Thanks for having me back. Sam's a developer advocate with progress software and a frequent guest on the show and a guest host once. That was about a year ago. Yeah. We love your show. The famous hour-long blazer episode. Yeah, and then things have come a long way in Blazor Land, but glad we could talk about Blazor way back in the days. Things have come a long way in many lands. What I thought we would do today is kind of apply that lens to mobile development. So we know that there are many ways you can build mobile apps. We'll quickly review those. But what is the state of mobile development? What's going on in Xamarin land and PWA land, etc. What are things that people should be aware of, should be looking for? Kind of we'll just sit back, we're actually sitting. Yeah. Don't sit too far back. Right. We'll sit back and just review the state of mobile development. Sure. So informal chat between developers. Yes. See which way you should go. What's new? So I think the state of mobile dev is complicated. Yeah. Because again, there's a lot of choice. So that's a good news. There's a lot of choice. Your technology stack can be whatever you have expertise in. The downside is sometimes as developers, we see too much choice and it's a little crippling. Okay. But the silver lining is no matter what stack you choose, the tooling is very mature. And it really, which technology you pick, does not dictate the type of app you can build. It's all the same. Okay. And despite the complexity, there is actually some clarity. Like if you wanted to do .NET, here are your options. If you wanted to do JavaScript, here are your options. Right. And again, the tooling is very mature in every stack. Okay. So for each of these, let's just quickly review what we mean by these, who's going to be doing this, and then we'll go back and talk about where we're at in each of these fields. Sure. And I'm sure there are more ways of building for mobile, not just mobile apps, but these are kind of the five broad ways I see it. Okay. So the thing we don't have or we don't talk a lot about is native. Because there isn't much to talk about. There are three big platforms, iOS, Android, and Universal Windows platform. You essentially go to Apple, Google, or Microsoft. You get their SDKs. You're building closest to the metal. Great experience. Everything is good, except it's expensive. These are three different platforms, and you have to maintain three different code bases. It's hard for a single developer. It's harder for enterprises to do three different code bases. So again, I'm not saying don't build native, but if you have the resources and if you want to target one platform first, go for it. Socially, if you're doing like games and things like that. But it's 2019, you would ideally want to build cross-platform solutions. And that's where we look at the other things. So number one on this list is mobile web, which I sometimes consider that to be the lowest-hanging fruit. If you have a website, it should work nicely on a mobile form factor. There is a lot of help in terms of open source frameworks. There is Twitter Bootstrap. There is all the spa frameworks we make in the UI. So your controls should be pinch and zoomable and work nice on a mobile form factor with touch. And then the mobile web concept, you can kind of take it to a very advanced level of a progressive web app, which is something I think Google first started pushing. Microsoft is absolutely behind it and Apple surprisingly is also on board. So it's a way in which your mobile website is a good citizen on a mobile device. It is something that you can pin the home screen, the icon to your home screen. You can receive push notifications. You can have some service workers. So it's a nicer experience, but you are still using the web as a distribution mechanism. If you want to hit the stores, that's when you look at some other technologies. That's when you look at hybrid, which is the whole Cordova and the PhoneGap days, which may be falling out of flavor a little bit, but I think it's still a legit strategy for like simple line of business apps. You are using web assets, web technologies, to build up an app that you're going to bundle up and put it in the store. If you do a good job, the user should not notice that it's not a native app, because it is not a native app in any way. It is running literally inside of a web browser shell inside of the sandbox. So performance isn't the best, but again, if you don't care about down to a millisecond thing, it's fine for you. But if you want that kind of performance, and again, if you want to use web technologies, you can actually build native apps that are cross-platform. So there are lots of developments that have happened in the last couple of days. We call this thing kind of the JavaScript native way of building mobile apps. There are frameworks like NativeScript, React Native, which will help you build native apps that are also cross-platform. So this is the JavaScript and the website of the story. If you are building a website today, you may want to stick to the JavaScript ways of building mobile apps, because your code sharing story between web and mobile might be better. But if you are somebody who has done NEC-Sharp or .NET in the past, or if you have other desktop applications, then you're looking at the cross-compile solutions. And for that, I mean, I think the boat has sailed, Xamarin has done a phenomenal job in the last five or six years to make it super easy for .NET developers to take their apps to iOS, Android, and other platforms. And this cross-compile story is getting more love. We see Uno platform, we see things like Flutter. So just a lot of choice. And I almost always say, take a look at what else you are doing if you want to plan your mobile strategy so you can have the best possible code reuse. Because any of these stacks is mature enough and the tooling is very good. So which bucket does Blazer fit into? So Blazer is not for mobile, technically. It is going to run on WebAssembly. It is going to run fine on mobile browser. So it is cross-compiled at this point. It is going to run C-Sharp-compiled down through LLVM into WebAssembly stacks. So yes, it will run. But Blazer is the way of coming to the browser with C-Sharp and the ASP.NET razor syntax. While if you just want to come straight, so a lot of us who, I'm going to show my age here, but I did Silverlight back in the days and it was beautiful because the tooling was nice. And so XAML is slowly making its back into the browser. So if you want to do like Xamarin forms type thing in the mobile browser, you can do that now. There are a couple of options and still early days. But WebAssembly is really opening up a lot of the different choices and options for us. Okay. So the mobile web slash PWA developers sitting in that first bucket, what should I be looking at? What do I need to know? Okay, so technically a PWA is a website. So every website could be a PWA, but whether it should be is debatable. So at this point, your website should have some characteristics that make it a good citizen on a mobile phone. It should have a manifest file that declares to the browser that I can do a few more things. I can have a service worker running in the background. I can receive push notifications, user can pin an icon to my home screen. So at this point, there is quite a bit of help. And for any of these tooling, like really for your audience, like Visual Studio is fantastic for all of these things. You can do all of this from inside Visual Studio. And there's a lot of help. One of the best things that anybody has put out for PWAs is the thing called PWA Builder. This was what Microsoft put out and it's gotten a lot of community love. So you give it a public facing URL. It's going to tell you for your website to be a PWA, you need to have a manifest file. And here's where you should start. Here's where your service worker should be to run offline, to be able to cache pages and to be able to push out notifications to the users. So there's a lot of help in terms of where the state of PWA is. It's a little complicated. Chrome is obviously way ahead of the curve. Edge is very much on board. In fact, you can write a PWA today completely with web technologies. Put it in the UWP store, in the Microsoft window store. So that's all good. Safari is lagging a little bit behind because Apple is kind of in, they're reconsidering their whole monetization strategy because Apple wants you to put apps in the store, but whether PWA is the right thing to do. So in terms of just the features that your browser can use as a mobile website, Safari isn't there close to what Chrome or Edge is. But again, if you want to use the web as a distribution medium, if you just want to have a website that works nicely on desktop and nicely on a mobile device, mobile web, PWA, that's the way to go. Okay, so what do you, what can you see happening in the next year in that space? Yeah, so since PWA's are purely web apps at this point, you are not going to have as much access to the device, the sensors that are on the device as you do from a hybrid or a native app. So all the things like camera, geolocation, accelerometer, these are things that are hard to do from just pure web because there are security concerns. So I think over the next couple of years, we're going to see that story evolve. So a mobile website should be able to do just as much as what a native app does. So I think that story needs a lot more improvement, but otherwise the core pieces are there for PWS to be successful. Okay, cool. So there's not much to talk about on native, except for support for a new version of the new SDKs. Yeah, so newer stuff is coming out, iOS 13 is coming out. One exciting thing with native land, I think it's going to be kind of a game changer is at WWDC, Apple kind of announced that Apple has a similar app store problem. Everybody wants to build for iOS, not many people want to build for the Mac desktop because that's kind of a niche thing. So they are trying to run iOS apps onto the Mac desktop and every one of those iOS apps can be written with Xamarin. If only they had a universal platform. Sort of. Sounds familiar, yeah, but it's hard to do. So with Mac OS desktop and iOS 13, you should see that light up, that story.  So that'll be a nice story. Android is coming along features, as you can envision, UWP is coming along, a lot of inking help, a lot of new web browser components. So again, the tooling for the native SDKs, that's just evolving as the platforms evolve. Okay, yeah. Hybrid, not a whole lot new because again, it's been out for a while and you might almost argue that if I'm building a hybrid app today with JavaScript, why would I not build a native app, right? So again, hybrid is a mature platform at this point.  So you can do a lot more, even though you're using web technologies, you are making an app. So you have access to all of the sensors, but otherwise, not a whole lot of new. There's kind of a mature space that there's not much going on in there necessarily. Yeah. The last two is where you're seeing like explosive growth and a lot of investments because that's where developers are. We want to be building native apps. I think traditionally, I've always enjoyed how the Xamarin folks have defined what makes a native app? Because I mean, there are blurred lines here, right? So a native app has to have native UI, native performance and native access to APIs. And all of these things will let you do that. So if you look at the JavaScript native stack, you have platforms like NativeScript, which work with pure, and I mean, all of these things are open source, pure JavaScript or TypeScript or with Angular or with Vue. So if you're building a web application today with Angular or Vue, grab NativeScript because it's going to give you that code sharing story. You can build the same components that work on web and mobile. Just your UI stack is a little different. And if you're building websites with React, then go with React Native, right? So again, all of these things are mature tool sets. A lot of these tool sets are... Which ones would you call industry leading or most popular at this point? They're all about the same. It kind of depends on what else you're doing. If you're doing React, then React Native is very popular. If you are okay doing Angular, and then NativeScript is very popular. So all of them are very, very good in terms of the tooling. All of these things are CLI tooling first. So a lot of command lines, but you have integrations inside of Visual Studio because at the end of the day, what you're writing is JavaScript or TypeScript, right? And Visual Studio code or Visual Studio, they're rock stars in helping you write that code. So the tooling is right there. One of the things that the JavaScript native side of the story has done very well traditionally is a very, very fast dev loop, a cycle. Like as a developer, I want to write some code and I want to hit one button and I see it on my app as quickly as possible. So almost all of those things use like, things like Webpack to kind of grab all of your components, configure them, and they can push out just one component. So if you edit one line of code, you see it immediately in the app, be it on the emulator, so be it on the device. So that cycle is very, very quick. So I think JavaScript native at a point is at a point where again, you have complete access to all of the native APIs. So anything iOS or Android come up with tomorrow, you will have zero-day support. So one of the criticisms of the JavaScript world, particularly from people not doing it, is the framework flavor of the month. Don't blink, there's a new framework out, right? There's so many frameworks and just when you learn one, a new one's come along. It seems to me though that it's kind of stabilized. Is that true? Yes, in a way. So you still have new frameworks coming out every day, but when you look at enterprise adoption, like really big projects which need to drive products forward, you have kind of settled on three or four big ones. So Angular, React, and Vue, I think those are the three main big ones now. I don't think jQuery is really dead. So that's another way of doing cross-browser things. So yes, you will always have the problem. So tomorrow, React might completely fall off the flavor, but today it is. And this is the truth of modern web development. Is there any rumblings of a new killer framework on the horizon, anything people should be looking at? Not a whole lot on the JavaScript side. So Dart, which I mentioned, it's kind of in between what you consider JavaScript and what you consider like cross-compiled. So Google has a program language called Dart, and that's what you build Flutter apps with. And it is native, in a way, for Android it is native because you're building things from the scratch and they have rebuilt all of Android UI in Dart for iOS, you're kind of painting pixels with Skiasharp. But I mean, if you think Dart is kind of leaning towards JavaScript, then I mean, that's a very upcoming way of building mobile apps. But otherwise, the tooling is top-notch. A few things that the JavaScript native things can get away with is you can refresh part of your app without going through the app store all the time. So those are things that it's good at. And then the tooling is cross-platform, like I said, Windows or Mac, it doesn't make a difference. And your story of code sharing between web and mobile is very, very good. Dev Ops support, is it as good as for what? Yeah, so the good thing is Microsoft has over time kind of consolidated all of the Dev Ops stories. And Dev Ops is hard for mobile. It's not just ship and forget. It's like, how do you distribute? How do you get crash analytics?  So for me, again, there are solutions out there, but I really like the Microsoft story of Visual Studio App Center. It is one thing that does everything for you under the roof, and it works for both JavaScript and .NET side. So any of these things will work just fine with VS App Center. You can distribute to an enterprise. You can do on-device testing. So especially if you're doing Android, you can't deploy to every Android device. There's just too many out there. So let them have the app package that will deploy to small screens and give you screenshots. So I think the Dev Ops story is hard to do everything by hand. So go to a cloud provider if you can for both JavaScript and native. I think Visual Studio App Center is really good. Cool, yeah. And then the cross-compile things, a lot of things are happening, which is good. Xamarin, I think is a very mature stack for .NET developers. It's been the preferred way of taking your apps cross-platform. What has happened in the last couple of years is since Xamarin was open sourced and became a part of Microsoft, it's gotten a lot more love from the community. So when you write, especially in Xamarin Forms, when you write an abstracted UI, Xamarin turns around and renders native UI on iOS or Android. And the way they do that is through something called renderers, which is what renders the native UI. So the community has stepped up and we have now written renders for other platforms. So the Xamarin Forms code that you write runs not just on iOS or Android, but on a Mac, but also on GTK Linux and also on the web. And you can style your XAML with CSS. This is kind of old news, coming from Xamarin Forms 3.0 days. Xamarin Forms had a 4.0 release, which was pretty big. One of the things that Xamarin, I felt, was a little behind compared to other frameworks was that dev cycle. It was a little slow. You write some code and you either hit F5, it takes a while to run in your emulator. They did a preview or thing which was nice because you could not run the app. You could kind of see the UI in Visual Studio. As of Xamarin Forms 4.0, they have a very hot new feature called hot reload, where you can actually literally write some XAML and your app is running in the emulator. It just picks up that one page and just shows you the refresh, which is very, very nice. And a lot of Xamarin developers have been looking for this for a while, so that's a very good development. Right, so that's a great feature to have, given that we don't really have XAML designers, right? Yeah, back in the blend days. And you can kind of see both ways, like maybe some of those tools were a little too heavy handed for what you're trying to do in Xamarin. So yes, we never really have had a Xamarin designer in Xamarin Forms, and maybe people have asked for it. Well, now at least you can see your code running. The moment you edit Xaml, you can see it running. And there are other things that the Xamarin Forms teams, Xamarin teams have done. You might want to have your app be styled by one of these common design paradigms, like cappuccino theme or material theme, right? So you used to have to kind of put in a lot more effort nowadays, or prior to this release, but now there are Xamarin Forms visuals, which is kind of a structured way of, kind of adhering to a theme all throughout. There's a whole concept of Xamarin Forms shell, which is optional, but most mobile apps end up being similar. There are multiple pages, and there is some navigation connecting it.  So you can start from a very good place. So these are some very good enhancements that has happened to Xamarin Stack in the last couple of months, and all of them kind of add to the productivity side of being a Xamarin developer. Cool. And then other things are coming along, like you mentioned WebAssembly, Uno is a platform or a framework that does UWP XAML. If you didn't want to write Xamarin Forms XAML, which is kind of cater for mobile devices, if you rather write UWP XAML, then you can do Uno platform, which runs on top of Mono. So same architecture as Xamarin, but their renderers will take UWP XAML and push it out to iOS and Android. But one thing they have done quite well is WebAssembly support. So again, this is all new. Frank Kruger, he's a local gentleman here. He has a framework called UWI. So there are multiple ways in which you are bringing XAML back to the web browser. Still early days, but it's exciting if you have ever done it in silver light. So yeah, that's the state of where we are. All right, cool, awesome. So in 20 minutes, perfect. A lot of stuff. A very good overview of where we're at. Thanks so much for coming on and doing this. Yeah, thank you. And again, I think it's good to have choice as a developer, look into what else you are doing. And the good news is no matter what you pick, you have very mature tools and you have full API access. And again, the story keeps getting better in every stack. So yeah, thanks for having me to kind of come out and do a quick informal chat. This is fun. Thank you. Hope you enjoyed that and we will see you next time on Visual Studio Toolbox.