today's episode a call to trainers and coaches out there we brought on one of the best trainer of trainers Jason Phillips we have an incredible discussion about the state of the fitness industry and how trainers and coaches can truly learn to be successful in this very challenging industry we know you're gonna love this episode today's program giveaway is the hard-gainer bundle this is a great bundle of programs for those of you that find it tough to pack on muscle and strength or you have a really slow lagging metabolism that just doesn't want to speed up this bundle we're gonna give away for free but you have to enter to win leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications if you win we'll let you know in the comment section now we are also running a sale right now that same bundle the hard-gainer bundle is 50% off and then we also have maps bands on sale 50% off if you're interested in either one click on the link at the top of the description below one other thing Jason Phillips agreed to give away all his content from NCI to one lucky winner so one of you will win all of NCI's content you'll get access to all of it for free but you have to enter to win that so if you're interested go to ncimindpump.com forward slash October dash scholarship all right here comes a show off air we were talking about you're saying how you feel like the space is gonna get regulated yeah so talk about that a little bit what do you mean by that I think that first of all on the I don't think it's gonna be like a education based regulation like I don't think they're gonna come in and be like where's your college degree blah blah blah like standards yeah because there's just so many loopholes there there's so much gray area I'm quote-unquote giving advice etc but when we start looking at like the advertising and marketing space that's where it really starts to come in right like that's when if you say on a Facebook ad this program will make you $10,000 you're implying that if somebody purchases they do the work they'll make the $10,000 and if that doesn't hold up to be true or if you don't have anything to back that up if you haven't personally achieved it more often than it's failed then you can't really make that statement right it's no longer a true statement so you're talking about the space where people are teaching you how to build a business or make money advertising or using your methods that's that space has existed forever for a long time I remember as a kid I bought a few of these kids there was a lot of you embarrassed to tell you the first person who's a guy on the boat hold on I bought no no way I'm gonna tell you I'm gonna tell you too that I bought and we'll see if you well you're younger than I am but we'll see if you remember Don LaPri was one of them you place tiny little ads and newspapers across the whatever it was this whole method and then the other one was Tom Vu he was a Tom Vu is the book Tom Vu he was that name yeah he was this this immigrant Asian dude and he was on a yacht he's like look at me beautiful women I make lots of money he probably sold the same product that I bought which was like coffee shop millionaire never noticed all the guys they show up to a coffee shop in a Ferrari and all they do is they sit there on their laptop it's because they're making money from their laptop but I was like I want to make money for my life this is great yeah actually I swear to God if you went into my Gmail right now I'm almost positive there's a folder that says coffee shop millionaire because I like put all of this shit from that product oh my god look up top look up Tom Vu Tom Vu that had to make money or whatever on a yacht you guys we ended up in the long run meeting the guy that helped him build that funnel really it's like coffee shop millionaries like I fucking knew that product and like the guy was connected like Rich Sheffrin and like he was a part of it I'm like oh my god like this this is so incestuous wow so do you think so you think this is gonna be general over all like you'd like basically all internet marketing not that it says no no no it's it's a hundred percent not fitness fitness would be the last I think yeah cuz this space exists for everything real estate yeah finance so I think we would call it the expert space oh yeah the guru and expert now was it not regulated before cuz like I said it's been around for a long time I mean technically yes I don't look at Tom food is Tom food is babes I bought this and I would always show these dudes you know and they show their pay check so there's the proof there he is right there you will learn at my seminar will make you financially independent for the rest of your life one of my recent transactions I walked away with a check for 15,000 $10 and 50 cents I come to this country look at me beautiful women lots of money and I bought it he probably killed it I was like 15 oh yeah he went to jail did he go to jail I did for what I think ripping people off exactly it's been going on for 10 years look up how much you how like what is jail time and what happened to him because I didn't know that I didn't want the jail oh yeah did he got busted for fraud so that's so I'm saying the regulations existed but you think they're gonna make cuz the internet changed the game yeah it totally and so what do you think they're gonna they're gonna come down with he's actually never formally charged wow yeah so he's free to go oh my bad all right we'll look them up later see how he did it so yeah you think it's gonna be around the like I don't know how they're gonna impose it and I don't know what's triggered the companies that have quote-unquote gone through it because I know firsthand at least two companies that have gone through it very large companies multiple multiple multiple you figure companies so I don't know I don't know what triggered it I know one of them the claims that were being they were just egregious like they were so outlandish that you know something happened but you know we I think that being in business at some point you're gonna have people that just they like we've had people that they want like a $5,000 refund and we're just like listen like it has nothing to do with the $5,000 but if we do it for you all of a sudden opens up the doors we gotta do it for a lot of people like the policies of the policies like we will try to get you $50,000 in value like we want to help you but like we're trying to stay on a policy yeah like I'm gonna fucking go to like better business bureau and I'm just like really like this is where it's going so like I think at some point every business has that customer I don't know what triggers the FTC right now but I know they're watching what remind what it reminds me of is because the fitness space has done this for a long time well they'll show or supplement space yeah well they'll show some really crazy before and after yeah and people then will be led to believe like oh if I take that supplement or hire that trainer like hydroxy cut yeah and it doesn't happen in the way that they've been regulated is you have to put like this does you know this is not disclaimer on exactly so I'm wondering so you're starting to see that now in digital shit so I do this thing on webinars all the time we're like in the very beginning I'll intro myself and I'd be like by the way if you haven't already been able to figure it out I'm pretty much a fucking lunatic and that absolutely nothing I say should be taken seriously and so I'm like so I'm like you know I'm gonna talk about these millions of dollars I made that I've absolutely made but like don't take my journey there very seriously because I'm not saying that your journey should look like mine but mine's fucked and like so I say it that way where I'm doing the disclaimer but I say it in a way that's very conversational yeah that's being done in every webinar now yeah and everybody's figured out a way like Frank Kern I know he had some shit dude he's very careful now yeah I feel like first off the burden is always on the consumer but we already have laws to protect against fraud and I think those those laws are still okay like if I sell a product and say you are guaranteed right well then yeah now now I know I'm liable so where's the so where's the middle ground though because let's say somebody buys maps yeah and you say here's the results associated with maps right and you're not saying guaranteed if you do this you're gonna get that right but so they're like well I changed my diet right and I did these exercises every day and they did them at like 50% effort and yeah they walked through the gym they talked on their phone while they were doing them but they quote-unquote did the program right how are we drawing that long you what so you use you also you use an example of what we didn't do because that's like this is our Achilles heel of why we haven't scaled a ridiculous number but I think that that's I think that you're smart because it's authentic yeah well it's coming from other people I was just gonna say I feel smart now because you're telling us this because I mean that I think it's I actually think that you're you've done it the right way and there's a though I tell people are like what's the guarantee on your product and I was like the guarantees if you do the work you'll get a result and if you're looking for a guarantee today that says like if you buy this you'll make $10,000 I'm probably not the guy for you because you're trying to bet on me more than you're trying to bet on you and I've already made my fucking money you still need to that's a hundred percent so I'm glad you used our programs as an example because one thing that we and I know you did the same thing Jason because you before you did this business you coach people for a long time and this is what separates I think influencers quote-unquote influencers from people who've actually done it we learned as trainers relatively quickly one of the biggest mistakes you can make as a trainer that will crush your business where you will fail is you over promise and under deliver one of the best things you could do is under promise so I would actually always set people up for expectations that were terribly low yeah and that that would set them up for success and so that's what we often do in fact when we talk about coaches being a trainer and being a coach on the show we never glamorize it and so we're always surprised almost surprised when people call and say I became a trainer because I listened to your show I was like God we tell people what a tough job it is how much you're going to fail how much it sucks you don't make a lot of money but I think it's because we under promise and people hear the authenticity so I'm glad to use this as an example what do you think leads that do you think that like you do your first like ad where you give like somewhat of a guarantee or your transformation this person was here now they're here or they made this much money now they make this much money and then you see like great return and then you just start getting crazy absolutely that's how I think it's like a greed thing yeah yeah I mean you know obviously good friends of Alex or Mosey right and Alex puts this book out hundred million dollar offers and in the offer in the value equation that the whole book is basically predicated on he talks about you have to have a guarantee right or he basically says he talks about likelihood of achievement right this is the way that you increase likelihood of achievement is you add a guarantee to it and so now I mean there are some fucking outlandish guarantees where I'm a believer that every time the market trends towards something if you really want to win you need to trend away from it which is why like now like when I teach I'm like I don't think you need a guarantee and I actually think that if you're a product today you know we're recording this what September 2023 if you're a product you're just coming out putting a guarantee out there tells every consumer that you're just like everything out there because what they're hearing right now is like well I'll coach you for six months and if we don't hit your result I'll keep coaching you for free right or like if you buy my year long program I guarantee you lose this or I'll keep coaching you for free because like what else can you guarantee like if you're a coach you're not going to give somebody their money back you can't guarantee their work ethic it's it's so hard to do it so the only real guarantee there is like well we'll do this you know or I'll keep coaching you or I'll give you access and so the guarantees are all the fucking same well now you might as well be the same price you might as well be the same service the only thing you're differentiating on now is the person yeah well that's a liability in and of itself because how the fuck can you scale that yeah how can you scale you you can't your time and energy are done I also I also think the guarantee model too is just like a it's a quick fix or a band aid for for someone who's trying to scale or build a business because ultimately you might let you might convince 10 people faster because you have this guarantee or transformation example of somebody but if I actually take one person and fundamentally change their business or change their life we're talking about training that person is going to go talk to people for the rest of their life about me it's just going to take a lot longer to catch up to the leads that the person who just guaranteed a bunch of stuff but the good news and this is what I think would happen with maps was it was that very slow process but that compounds and then once you've helped millions of people you got millions of people that are constantly talking about how much that you change your life and I don't have to guarantee anything they're going to go do that they're going to go do the guarantee for you without you even having to say it's interesting like as I'm hearing you say that I'm thinking just about speed right speed is the only thing I'm thinking about and I'm thinking you guys in your words you think maps was like slow ish right like grants gave me things so pretty quickly because built a lot of really big business relatively quickly but for the current marketplace people would think about it as slow I think speed could you could eliminate the word speed you could just say stress right so the faster you go the more stress you're going to have totally but I don't think about it just as physiological stress I think about this physical stress too so like you take the company and you like you envision it as a physical thing and you apply force you apply load right that's stress to the infrastructure the faster you go the increase you're you're just increasing that stress you're increasing that load and most people in a brand new company what don't they have they don't have infrastructure right they have no support they can't fucking do it so it's like all right well let's just magically say that the guarantee was the proverbial opening of the floodgates all of a sudden you open up the floodgates you bring people in you're not going to hit your guarantee because your infrastructure is going to be so bad and I think that there's a whole different conversation we can definitely go into it I think what people have been pursuing the last four years is wrong and I think that you know I'll take my part in this because I was one of the first coaches in the space to hit multiple seven figures what I didn't talk about enough was like the margins at multiple seven figures so like at my peak in 2020 when we sold the coaching business it was I think it was generating like three million-ish per year and I think that the margins on that were 33% so let's just say I was taking home a million dollars here it's about pretty accurate right I guarantee you today if I were to rebuild I would go a little slower I would get the company to like one five one six and it still take home a million dollars right and there's one point five of top line that I'll leave on the table but that's one point five of stress that I'm never going to have to deal with and I think a lot of coaches they see what I've done they see what some of these other coaching companies have done and the only thing that's thrown around in the digital space is top line revenue nobody talks about take home and so like I asked my coaches recently this is what we started doing in our quarterly planning I we go into the quarter and I say all right first question what do you want to take home next quarter and I mean I get looked at like a dear and fucking headlights and I'm like you're running a business you're the CEO of a business you have a team working for you you know they're in they're in this group with me because they're all doing a certain revenue level and it's like you don't know what you want to fucking make that's scary and then it's like cool how do we know how much we should produce top line because those two should be directly correlated right we should know top line let's just say 100k a month produces you know post-tax 30k take home and they're like I don't know I just want to make more and I'm like what's more and when is that enough and at what point is this business not serving that enough and that's where I think so many mistakes are being made I remember learning about the supplement industry that way a good friend of ours very successful communicated to us that a very successful supplement company would have maybe a 10 to 15 percent margin and it blew my mind because you're talking about a 10 million dollar company making a million bucks yeah so the thing about all the employees all the infrastructure in the warehouse and the stress and I thought wow that's not worth it that's not worth it most most online coaches would make more money themselves they would take home more money if they stop trying to a grow fast and be scale out of proportion I mean I think feasibly you can get to 3 million and I think you can maintain 40 to 45 percent margin I'd be hard pressed to see companies that do more than that and I mean maybe if the person is an influencer and there's no acquisition costs associated with it but you have to look at the fulfillment cost which fulfillment alone at scale is probably going to take up close to 50 percent of margin I mean yeah when you guys were trainers in clubs you know even after you paid out like because of what people make like 40 percent right in a club but then you pay like the admin associated with that that's billing the process like you're getting the 50 percent margin just on cogs yeah right then you look at like the op-ex of the business you're probably looking 20 to 30 percent like right there we're already down to like 70 percent now we got a tax that 30 percent take home it let's call it 20 percent right and now we're down to I mean fucking 20 percent margin I really believe this has been perpetuated by the startup culture I agree about it I mean I've had the opportunity Doug and I joined this Hampton group which is a bunch of really really successful founders in mostly in the Silicon Valley although they're all over the all over the country and I really was insecure going into it because like my peers that my group of 12 people that I work in my and Doug and I are in different groups like you're talking about guys that have exited 100 million dollar companies are on their third or fourth they sold for just like big fish and then I actually get an opportunity to hear them break down their business and it's like that culture is so geared around growth grow grow grow spend everything you can just acquisition and then just prove that you can grow at a fast enough rate and then sell before you've even made any money yeah like a lot of these guys can say things like oh yeah I built 100 million dollar company well how much did you make oh I didn't really make anything I still have a percentage of that business sort of like that or you know or I'm like I don't understand and they're like well that's and then I learned like that culture and what they do and they just live on leverage yes all ever they all they all live on lever and I think we're seeing that culture bleed into even small fitness businesses like ours one of the biggest problems in our world in our world in general not just online marketers not just only coaches is that people are trying to live on leverage right people are and I'm a big believer you need leverage to grow right so like the book the Almanac of Naval right Naval Robbakan founder of Angel List like talks about four sources of leverage and how you need leverage to grow and so I think that you need to understand leverage but I think most people are over leveraged they've over leveraged themselves their their resources right there I mean everybody's got these mortgages they can barely fucking afford the car payments they can barely afford and it's like my opinion is if you can't build a company that profits then stop worrying about leverage until you can do that at least so yes and no in our space 1 million percent yeah that's what I'm referring to yeah in our space 100 percent yes yeah in general I mean companies like Google Facebook no no they need they need like companies different yeah the cost of R&D is insane and all that I mean if you're not profitable the very first client you take on and you don't maintain profit the rest of your career in our space yeah fucked up that's right and I get people at the time like well how do where do I get the startup capital and I'm like you fucking drive uber like you drive uber you do door dash like you fucking wait tables like you go put cash away you invest in yourself you learn the skills you get really good at the skills you deliver them for free until you have enough people that believe in your services and then you monetize your services yeah the other thing I want to touch on to Jason you said earlier and and we kind of glazed over it but this is really important thing to I think focus on you said when the market is going one way go in the other way okay in our market in the fitness market there's so many false promises so many guarantees that now not being the one or being the one that doesn't do that makes you appear authentic oh everybody else is showing these crazy before and afters this guy over here says it's going to take me a lot longer I think I believe him I think that says more about the state of our industry than anything else in the sense that we're now because the fitness industry at large is not a it's not a super old industry it really isn't it's really only been a huge industry for maybe a few decades we're getting to the point now where I mean look what happened to the western medicine or the medical industry covid the the trust that people have in western medicine declined tremendously because the way we handled the pandemic we're in my opinion heading down a dark path with the fitness space where pretty soon people are going to believe anybody says in our space it's funny that you mention that because I actually think that the covid boom of digital fitness is what's causing the a lot of the lack of trust today like current day September 2023 I think that listen NCI benefited tremendously we had a lot of people that were like man I hate my fucking job I want to be part of this like anti-government like anti-western medicine movement I want to learn the right way of doing it um and then they saw this option where it's like wow I don't have to go to the office I can make a lot of money online and so people you know you saw two people uh one person that went in was like I really want to learn the skill sets of being a successful coach of like being able to deliver a result that is not traditional western medicine and then you saw people that are like I want to get rich quick and right now as we sit here the space is so inundated it's so saturated it's so crowded with uh I'm going to effectively call them shitheads right and but it's it's people that just like took the leap like they went in they're like I'm gonna be an online coach with the intent of making money and and I don't I mean none of us like in this room we've all built success in the fitness space I I'll speak for myself but I'll I think that you guys are on board I didn't start my first job as a personal trainer at gold's gym and you know Fairfax Virginia because I thought I was going to be a multi right like I didn't go in I was like wow this is the fucking key that's going to unlock my life I did it because I was a former anorexic because health and fitness changed my life because I was passionate about being in that setting every day loving what I was doing and I enjoyed working with people and it served me all the way through man I built my online business slower than everybody I built bigger than everybody I built more sustainable than everybody but you know if you look speed wise man I was I was slow dude it took me 10 plus years it's funny you point that out because think about that how different it was for the four of us when we first started like guaranteed 15 years ago or 20 years ago if you looked at and you before Instagram face all that stuff right and you looked at the landscape of a gym and trainers none of us knew a rich trainer I didn't know any rich I knew I knew buff trainers yeah you know I knew I knew cool like cool but that was the but that was like the thing was to be the buff train yeah to be buff or to have autonomy of setting and getting to work in that atmosphere there was no rich trainers none I didn't know one trainer driving a Lambo I don't know one trainer balling out with chains and watch it none of that that didn't exist so nobody who entered 15 20 years ago really had that thought in mind where now in these this internet and social media space some of the most financially successful trainers are the ones that are showing off all these things that they have and so you're getting a whole new wave of young kids that are getting into the space with that in mind and it's so not realistic so half so I have a lot of family like cousins I should say that are right right around my age and we're always talking business and investments and stuff and they're all either in tech or in finance and the joke always is like man if I wanted to make money I should have gotten to one of your guys's spaces because I could be mid-range finance and make more money than I am you know running the top one of the top fitness podcasts you know in businesses in the world getting into fitness to make money is in my opinion is a losing strategy not because you can't make money you can but because if you don't have the passion if you don't if you wouldn't do this for free you're not going to survive that's a hundred percent by the way that's the history of the fitness space I use this example all the time I remember when this first happened I remember when there was a fitness franchise that took the gym industry by storm in the late 90s early 2000s curves exploded I remember walking into a curve to try and figure out what was going on meeting the owner realizing they had no fitness background they had no business being a fitness they said they did it because they saw it was a top franchise and then I knew this is going to collapse and sure enough but just so you know you just that that hasn't changed it still today that was my experience at orange theory I was meeting all these people that were opening his gym none of them had a fitness background they were all smart investor people who have been successful in other avenues they saw the growth of the franchise oh I'll buy one I'll be one and it's like with no real knowledge of this I won't say which one but there's a there's a pretty well known bootcamp franchise that when they started they boot they bootstrapped with like former trainers former and they were like hey this is how you should brand your bootcamp they fucking blew up all of a sudden they're like we should turn this to a bizop we should go to successful people like you just said and that began like the demise of that company um you know it's it's funny though because I think back to the first time I made quote-unquote a lot of money being a personal trainer I was living in LA dude I was hustling like my day was I was in the facility at 5 30 my first client was six like I do like 30 minutes of admin work I went six to noon straight clients little lunch went downtown LA got my own workout in came back I did like admin work till like 4 30 trained more clients till 7 30 wrapped up admin work till 8 30 got home took a nap woke up did like more paperwork from like 12 30 to 1 30 went back to bed did it all again right so I had the job where I was like I was the GM of the gym and I was the you know did the most floor hours of of anybody in the space and so when I saw the marketing messages of the gurus back then it was hey you're really good at what you do you help a lot of people but you're running out of hours to make more money like here's how I can help you make more money that was the marketing message of the gurus back in the day right that was the mastermind message if you go to the mastermind message today it's like hey fitness is super lucrative make lots of fucking money like here's how you can become a highly paid trainer and it's like that's very different yeah that's extremely different because the first message assumed that you had passion for what you did it assumed that you were good at what you did and I think that the barrier to getting in now is so fucking low being good at what you do is almost an afterthought and I've I've heard and I don't know this to be true but I know it to be pretty close to true I've heard there are certain like business coaches out there that in their program are telling people don't go get certified don't go through an education just use this set of guidelines and give them to your clients you don't need to actually be good at what you do here's how you and I swear to God dude and I think it lives in some people's programs and I'm like you know what like that's fucked because I think back to when I was anorexic and fortunately the first person that helped me I didn't have to pay I'm not sure I had the money to pay them but they helped me because they wanted to help me and if that person they saved my fucking life and I've always said and I say in every speech I said the whole reason we started NCI is so that there's not another 18 year old Jason contemplating suicide because he doesn't know what to eat as that was almost the result almost killed myself because of the eating disorder and I can't imagine empowering a trainer to make money off the back of those kinds of situations like it just doesn't make sense this is this is this is the experience this is what happened at 24 Fitness you know we started in the the company that really built the model and how to become successful and I'll never forget the turning point I was in a meeting with other general managers and up-and-coming district managers and they had just had new investors come in and I'll never forget the presentation they made and they said look because at the time we had sales counselors and trainers and fitness managers and we were learning how to sell memberships through selling fitness and you know there's a these were the company was built and founded by fitness people who also understood business but they were fitness people first and I'll never forget them the presentation the guy goes up there and says we have more locations than anybody we don't need sales people to present anything you don't need to do all you got to do is have the best prices it's like a menu you walk in you order the membership you want and you leave and I remember going this is the end this is the beginning and I remember my district manager who was a fitness guy looked at me and he said looked at me and he said hey Sal what do you think about that and I said that's terrible that's not how you sell fitness that's not how this works they didn't believe me that's the direction they started going and you know it turned into a few bankruptcies and a lot of negative changes this annoys me Jason because our space has all the answers for all of the chronic health issues that people suffer from and all of them depression anxiety obesity cancer diabetes dementia no space has more better answers than we do and yet we got people going in there right now ruining it to the point where pretty soon people aren't going to turn to us anymore and that really annoys the shit out of me you know it's so funny that you say that too because as I think about the space like the wealthiest coaches I know are not the best coaches and I won't say the best because they're very good I'll say the smartest most intelligent I've been really fortunate recently so we have a live event coming up in October you know we have like Bill Campbell William Wallace Lane Norton Rachel Shear they're all coming out to speak like fucking really good minds in our industry and I've been fortunate to talk to a couple of them on calls and just they the first thing they go to is business and they're like I'm so smart and I'm so good at what I do I just haven't figured out how to like crack the code on like the business thing and that's interesting to me because I'm like what are you what do you think you're missing because I you know they'll share their numbers with me and stuff and I'm like what do you think you're missing and they're like telling me and I'm like you realize a lot of those numbers being talked about are like big top line numbers and your take home is pretty much just as much as theirs and they're like they really feel like they're like missing out on this thing and I'm like just continue to stay true to being really fucking good but you know there's this there's this dissonance between like being extremely good at what you do and chasing the dollar and the happiest coaches I know are the ones that are very fucking good at what they do the the ones that stay in the space for a long time are the ones that are very good at what they do the ones that have zero issues when something like covid rolls around are the ones that are actually good at what they do like imagine you know if I don't know a covid of the fucking online world happens right we're like all of a sudden we can't use the internet yeah are half of the coaches that are online right now still gonna be helping people no and that's scary like who are we putting out into the world we're not even putting out people we're not putting people into the world that want to create change they just want to monetize other people's need to change and that's kind of scary to me do you as a leader in the space do you I already think I already know the answer but do you feel a responsibility to try and keep the space moving in the right direction or to try to counter some of that some of that crap that's out there yeah I do I mean you know I've been really transparent with you and I'll be I'll be very open on the podcast you know we we've been very blessed obviously we've built a big business but more importantly we've helped a lot of people and you know at our highest revenue months you know obviously we're an eight figure company I would say 60% of that was indexed on people coming to us for business solutions where 40% was indexed on people coming for nutrition solutions and as I've watched things evolve you know last year year and a half I see the business side being perpetuated more and I see more and more people with questions around that and not even understanding that the the core foundation is being very good at what you do and these are people that have taken other certifications that still feel lost these are people that have taken no certification at all and still feel lost but all they're thinking about is the money they'll make in the industry and so yeah I mean I think as a leader and as a company that I think is poised to become the leader in the space and ultimately that's our goal right we have openly stated we want to impact the lives of a billion people through the vehicle of health and fitness we have to do that you know if we want a billion lives being touched we want a billion lives being touched successfully not because somebody had the marketing capacity to do so now I'm also of the opinion if you have a really really good skill set you 100% should know how to get yourself visible you should know how to market you and you deserve to be compensated for what you've invested into growing that skill set I make no bones about that I believe coaches should be amongst the highest paid industries in the world but I think first you gotta really fucking be good at what you do what would that ratio look like in an ideal world for you personally like percentage of people that are going through NCI versus BCI so if we're looking at units sold probably 70-30 if we're looking at revenue we're probably looking at because obviously the business products are more expensive of course if we're looking at units sold 70% nutrition 30% business but I think revenue that's probably gonna trend back down towards like 55-40 yeah that's that's understanding so how do you feel about this because this is we talk about this especially early on we talked about this a lot now I think not so much because we know this is what we're doing yeah I think the best strategy to lead the space and again I'd love your opinion on this is to do it the right way and to show everyone else that not only can I do it the right way but I can make money doing it the right way because otherwise you're not gonna win that battle because we gotta fight fire with fire 100% so we gotta be able to use the same tricks they use but do it with integrity do it effectively and do it the right way so that way people can go into the space who are passionate and they don't feel like they have a choice of being poor or lying yep the options are not that the options are actually I can do this the right way and do well yeah you know it's I was talking to Alex yesterday and he was saying you know when I was in the space I always met people where they were and I was like what do you mean by that he said true or false somebody in their local area is going to promote a detox a fat flush some bullshit like that so true absolutely he said okay true or false that's what the consumer thinks they want true he said so if I show up and I say macros and patients who are they gonna choose so bam right he said so how do I get them to choose me first he said I gotta meet them where they are they want the detox they want the fat flush they want so he said okay cool he's like hey come here we're gonna talk about a detox then they come in and it's like listen the detox that we're talking about is the shit that you've already tried it's not part of this program right like sure for three days we'll detox you but then you're gonna do macros you're gonna do patients you're gonna learn accountability blah blah blah and and he said so but you still have to get their attention you still have to meet them where they're at and I always thought that was a really good lesson you know I think coaches right now it's okay to talk about the financial upside of being a coach and making good money but the first conversation has to be what is your skill set or can you deliver the promises and I asked every coach this whenever I talk business and he said the first thing is if I sent 10 clients your way on a scale of one to 10 what's your confidence level that you could help all 10 clients deliver the result that they want and the number of times that I don't get 10 is really scary an event you guys came to I think it was two three years ago we called it Impact Income in Arizona there's like 300 people in the room I asked all 300 people I said how many of you guys can raise your hand and tell me how you create the results that you do meaning like you actually have a process like it's it's not just this like reactionary bullshit how many people think raise their hand yeah probably very little three yeah three out of almost 300 and if I had to bring them on stage and offer them 10 grand probably not going to be able to do it right it's probably zero and so what does that tell us like it tells me as the owner of a company that I'm more excited about people getting the right education and people learning the right application of what they know because when they do the upside for them is astronomical here's the irony of what we're talking about okay here's the this is the big for me I try to communicate this a lot because I know that there's a false choice that the consumer thinks that they're making the consumer thinks if I do it this way the wrong way I'm going to get results faster yeah if I do it the quote unquote right way it's going to take me so long or maybe it'll never happen and that's the hard way the reality is there's this way which will get you there and keep you there and then there's nothing else there is no faster also effective way it's literally there is only one way to make this happen for reels everybody and it's this everything else it's illusion is a lie so that's the real choice and I we need to communicate that better because otherwise what will happen is I'm going to be competing with advertisers who are saying things that aren't true and the consumer thinks their choices are fast or slow that's what they think when in reality it's yes or no there is no other way yeah like that sound bite should be pulled and played everywhere the consumer thinks it's faster slow when in reality it's yes or no like that's it right there like mic drop the end you know I mean think about my poem I mean you guys have been in this for what ten years now nine years nine years yeah right think about on day one if somebody's like you could buy the number of downloads that you have yeah right it would have been appealing like let's be honest you're like you'll snap our fingers you're you're making whatever you're making you get the number and you're like yo I'm I'm in right right but you guys are all intelligent enough to know like if I buy that like there's no way in hell A that it's legit B that we're keeping it right right and so instead like you would 100% trade it for the journey you've been on because you know now definitively not only do you have what you've produced but you have potential in so many other different verticals right like you think of it all the other doors it's open for you because of the journey because you've done it the right way and this is this is why lottery winners pro athletes go broke because they get this windfall of money or success overnight and they didn't build the habits and behaviors of what it takes the average normal person to achieve that level so let me ask you this then how do you think it's going to trickle back down right because if if what's being promoted now is success as a coach is you know highly monetizable what about the trainers in the golds gyms in the eos in the lifetimes right are they good anymore and and at what point does that now penetrate the public marketplace where the public marketplace actually knows and you know I think that this is a whole another conversation so according how are we qc'ing the space right like I think now the space is bigger than ever there's more people working in health and fitness than ever which means a there's more competition but b there's less people that are really good at what they do how are we quality it's an opportunity of yeah it's a massive opportunity it's because if you look at it here's what's happened okay over the last just two decades the health and fitness space has grown year over year over year more people are buying health and fitness products having gym memberships gyms are growing all that stuff is growing year over year year over year but what has also happened over the last two decades health has gotten worse consistently right year over year over year so you could either look at this and it's the this kind of dystopian oh crap you know we're we're going the wrong direction everything's going to crap or opportunity if you are here's the beauty of and I hate saying this out loud but it's true when we started this business we were confident that we would do well because we're competing with idiots idiots this is true no no it's true we're competing with idiots you want to separate yourself in the in the health and fitness space be honest do a good job you know there's a lot of spaces where that doesn't really separate you you get into tech and you're you know you kind of do a good job deliver a good product like good luck you're competing to get some some brilliant people yeah there's a lot of morons in our space and it's it's an opportunity so for people listening who want to be coaches and trainers the opportunity is huge because you're competing against a lot of liars and a lot of idiots and that's great now for the consumer it sucks but hopefully we can educate the consumer so they can make that the right decision I think part of the reason why we're seeing that is because the people that are seeing the most are the ones that not necessarily are doing it the right way and so you're just getting a whole cohort of people that oh this he's got this these things or he's famous on instagram therefore he's the one doing it right and so you've all of a sudden shifted this huge majority of people in a direction and I do think I think we're going to see a fallout right I do think that like even instagram hasn't been that popular for that long and you're going to see a lot of turnover of these people that were flashing a pan they made a lot of money for a short period of time but they don't have the real staying power and so I think you're going to start to see that turnover and people are going to hopefully this is the optimistic side of me kind of wake up a little bit you know and you're going to want to see either one like the proof that oh this guy has gone and done it in real life for a longer time or oh they've been around for 20 30 years doing this because a lot of people are going to come and go in my opinion yeah let's stick out like a sore thumb I mean the the ones that had true staying power through all this like in the gym they're going to recognize those those quality trainers and it's just one of those things it's like it's been right in front of everybody the whole time it's just been convoluted with all this like excess of information noise information overload and so how do we filter through all this stuff and and I think like it's going to appeal itself back to reveal like this has been the way the whole time yeah I mean it's it's such a dichotomy and I could go I mean there's so many different rabbit holes we could go into but I think a lot of people get into health and fitness in the very beginning with a small level of insecurity I know I did I know we've I know we've talked about it on other podcasts I've been on right and so you know that's the polar opposite of what it requires to stay true to being good right because it takes a very secure individual to you know plant their put their flag on the ground and say this is what I'm doing you know it's I look at Lane Norton man and I have such a massive amount of respect for what he's done because when he first came to the space like the the bro science guys I mean they fucking blasted him and you know and and Lane has always stayed true listen science is science and now I would argue he's one of the most respected people and I would say so many ideas are they fall in line with a lot of what he brought to the space and so I have such massive amount of respect for him you know look at the fitness space and and you know people blasted CrossFit you know since it came in they have never wavered from what they believe to be the truth now we could argue all day long true or not true and and I think that you know the truth is somewhere in the middle but I think that the security and I mean I won't say Greg Glassman secure but the you know the whole front end of CrossFit like they were very secure and what they didn't think they're like this is what we do and so when you have a subset of people that come in back for the previous insecurity and you're asking them to instantly overnight become very secure and what they're putting out I think that's where a lot of it comes from yeah you know it's very hard because they're going to question themselves they because they're going to be questioned at every turn you know they're going to say like oh well you know Lane and science tells us carbs aren't the enemy and then all of a sudden the keto zealots you know get up in their face well carbs aren't even a essential nutrient and you know blah blah blah and it's like they'll yell louder and now the insecure person becomes more insecure and it's like fuck like how do we win that battle and I think the only way to win the battle is to continue to put out the right education to to encourage people to receive the right education but most importantly and I mean you know this is me planting my flag at the ground with NCI is to get people to engage in application man I think that like you guys can stand on mountaintops and say maps is the best thing in the world the people that have done maps they know the power in it right when we can facilitate application of the right shit I think that's when we're moving forward in the world is like we know this to be true how do we get users to actually engage in it and I think that's the real key and that's what we have to figure out I think one of the one of the first places to start is to because you can look at the the social media space or the online space and you look at the people with the most followers which you would think okay these are the most successful people what are they doing and many times what they're doing is they're using their bodies as social evidence or proof of their like how good they are so look how fit I look look how ripped I am look how beautiful I look this is a huge mistake for somebody who wants to become a successful coach first off you have to be the 0.0001% to really use your body in an effective way to get that kind of very so it's probably not going to happen but number two you're digging yourself a hole you're going to always have to look that way if that's because if that's your evidence and number three if you have any kind of integrity what you're doing is you're promoting the falseness or the myth that the way you look is going to communicate your knowledge and effectiveness now of course you don't want to look like you don't do any fitness or don't work at all there's extremes there but the consumer it's very easy way to convince a consumer but I always caution people to use that strategy don't use that strategy you're going to have to maintain it if it does work the odds that'll work are very small but if it does you've got to maintain that and number two you're doing the industry a huge service I mean yeah the more you do that the more jeopardy you're putting the longevity of your business in I mean that's just going to cause a key man problem right in and of itself but that's yeah I mean I love what you said in the sense that you're perpetuating such a false narrative and you know the reality is how you look is one factor of your life and as somebody with you know openly has body image issues to this day still have it right 39 years old to allow that to drive the other areas of your life is so misleading at best and so if I went out and I mean like I you know we were talking before this you know I've been I've done all my HRT work with transcend you know my diet's in a good place my training's in a good place like I walk around sub eight percent body fat as it is right now and if I like constantly posted pictures could I probably go back to selling nutrition coaching the sad reality is yeah I probably could but I don't want people to be like well I want to be like Jason and look like that no like that is one component of my life what makes me the happiest you know in the world right now is dude I spend more time with my daughter now than I have in the five years that she's been on this planet so like if I put that on the world is that gonna sell any kind of coaching probably not but that's what life is to me you know like I'm out here I'm with you guys like I I'm hosting clients in Arizona this week I spend time with my daughter as much as I possibly can I play lots of golf like those are the things I care about and so which at the end of the day you know if I died next week like people are like were you happy yeah like I was and so you want to know it's funny Jason managing gyms this is true 100% when you would have let's say you manage a big gym you got 15 trainers okay and there's varying degrees of fitness among your trainers the most ripped fit looking trainers were never the most successful never never they never now I'm not saying they're too much into themselves getting ripped and getting their clients or they were struggling with such severe body image issues and dysmorphia that they were tanking themselves they didn't have the energy to do it dude when I was when I was in LA I ran a gym at Beverly Hills and you know West Hollywood is right there and I had you know a decent population from there and so I had a chiropractor he was a celebrity chiropractor and he was a gay guy and he comes in and he said dude he said he goes you need to not be so jacked and ripped and I was like why I'm like I'm like this is like it's a personal thing like I enjoy it he's like yeah he's like but you're like unattainable he's like people look at you and they're like I could never look like that without steroids and I was like well I'm not on steroids I was like but I was like this is for me and he's like yeah he's like I know that as your client I'm like cool then like if it takes me longer to grow clients that like I'm authentically connected to I'm okay with that and so I made the choice to be happy myself I didn't do it for anyone else and like was there like a vanity like component yeah but it was vanity for me it wasn't vanity for social media it wasn't vanity for other people and so I think this comes down to a whole thing it's okay to chase vanity I have zero issues with people chasing vanity but make sure that the person that you are trying to please is the person in the mirror yeah you're not vanity for the sake of someone else being like oh look at his abs or look at her ass or you know whatever like you're more than welcome to chase those things we should all be encouraged to do that right like in life we are given one opportunity to have the things we desire if that's what you desire like more power to you don't make it a fucking sales tool but you also I mean you you also look you have two trainers one obsessed with their body and one obsessed with their clients who's going to be more that's amen all day you're going to see that I have a selfish question to ask you I think you're probably one of the most connected people in the fitness space I don't know anybody else who has probably had the opportunity to do deep dives on people's businesses and connect network collaborate with a lot of very successful and not so successful people in our space you openly talk about you have drive to be financially successful and you also have a lot of integrity so when you look at the entire landscape and all the people you've met what are what are three businesses that you admire the most and why are we talking businesses that people know or like just clients that I've taught no not even just clients like or businesses that you know like you've literally like we've already rattled off in this conversation probably 1015 other people like the Hormozies and people like that that have successful businesses which businesses do you look at and the reason why I'm asking this is one of the things that we're we're you know bitching about right now is that there's so many terrible people that are being highlighted in all these and I know we have a lot of trainers listening right now let's highlight some people who not only are like you know have integrity but also are probably really successful business wise and maybe you don't know it because maybe they're not the 5 million followers on Instagram with that so when you look at the landscape and you go like I really like these three businesses and why so let's name a couple of them oh man if I choose any of my clients they're all gonna bitch that like I didn't choose them right so it's like this is a double-edged sword for me I think there's so many that come to mind man I have hey like let me just first say I think anybody that gets into business with the intent of helping people have respect I don't care how good you are how bad you are I think if I disagree with your tactics I still have respect for you I still think as long as your pure intent is genuinely to help people like we can disagree on the methods all day long like you have my respect so I'll openly say that well not to cut you off but just so you don't feel like you get pigeonholed into like highlighting one of somebody that you've coached and trained maybe stick with the people that you've had speak at your events yeah yeah I mean they're they're already they're not necessarily people that you've coached and trained yeah that's good but you know there's a lot of these and I'm sure there's some of them you know their business you're like oh he's made a lot of money but I wouldn't want to have to do that or it's not my thing so yeah yeah I think you know first and foremost I'm gonna shout out four of my clients that have just done exceptionally well in like the last year and like I'm just gonna lump them into like one because they just made a commitment to themselves they were gonna see it through they were gonna do it on a big level and most people probably haven't heard of any of them you know one would be Stephanie Fusnick she's just married so that's not her last name anymore but I forget it she just interviewed me yesterday yeah there right yeah okay so like bro she literally went from like $70,000 a year to over a million dollars a year I didn't even know that wow you wouldn't know it wow so hands down one of the nicest human beings in the world Casey Miller who it may be back to story now but Casey started with us she was sleeping on an air mattress she went all in on herself half a million plus a year amazing Jared Hamilton who came to me as an influencer already had it like he had all the assets he just didn't know how to do it but he humbled himself in a way to get like the right thing and so much respect to him and then Mesa Mahoney and Audrey Adams who have just continuously like leveled up and who hit they did so much of what we've talked about today they hit such a financial success point where they were like you know what we want to choose the happiness point and we always want to do it the right way and they've always been like they've kept out at the forefront so those four for sure I think Jen Gottlieb who a lot of people may not know she spoke last year coaching on she was on the first day wasn't that is that she's the Louis Houses X Jen Gottlieb no, no, no, no I know that is a Jen but that's not okay, sorry thought that that's Doc Jen Jen Esquire maybe yeah, okay so it was close no, so Jen Gottlieb I think she actually just did a post recently she did like some fitness stuff and she was like on VH1 and she's like I was miserable at the time and like she just she loves PR she loves branding she loves all that stuff her and Chris Winfield her husband they own a PR agency and they are just the nicest people I've ever met in my life she has she's gone on to do just huge things and she told me like when we first started talking she's like I'm gonna do this public speaking thing like I'm gonna get on lots of stages and I've watched her from not a lot of people knew who she was dude, she's on massive stages now and still like just respect for being like this is what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna do it the right way I think she's amazing you know, Billie Jean is just a good friend I love the guy he is as fucking true as they come and if you ever go spend time with him he will reiterate that and he will show you that and so I have a lot of respect there one guy that I'm excited to continue to get to know who's speaking at this year's coaching con so this is the first public announcement nobody knows this yet so spoiler alert but Sean Stevenson is coming so model health show big fan of Sean because he's just like he literally started as like the sleep guy and he's just evolved that into like into that and so you know he every time I spoken to him about coming to the event it's always come back to the impact of the event it was never about the money it was never about the travel it was like he always talked about the impact of the event like what were we doing and I have just a ton of respect for that you know everybody else is like huge names and so I think everybody would give them respect but I think those are some names that a lot of people may not realize like the impact that those people are having in the world how what are some of the key things someone could focus on to build a successful business in health and fitness but to do it the right way like what are some things they should lack out for you know like we mentioned earlier like don't just use your body as a market but what are some things they can look out for and what are things they should focus on I think a lot of people need to recognize that your insecurities are going to be challenged repeatedly over the course of your business career from the very first time that you begin learning something it's going to challenge what you thought to be true to the very first time that you have to apply it it's going to challenge your own thought process around whether or not you think you can help somebody to the very first time that you ask somebody for money it's going to challenge your beliefs around money to the time that you have to hire somebody it's going to challenge your beliefs around leadership and I think that if you're not prepared for that then you're not prepared to be a business owner and that's also okay I think that there is this stigma that to be a coach to be a trainer that you have to be a CEO and that you have to be a business owner I wear the CEO hat today out of necessity I don't love the CEO hat I'm just being honest I love being a visionary and I love I actually love the client connection I don't like fucking spreadsheets and paperwork and like I fucking hate that shit so you know might happen more out of necessity because I wanted something of extreme impact and I was willing to lean into that but I think if you know it all comes back to the same front door so to speak which is you know to get into the industry you have to be willing to get the skill set you have to be willing to become very good at what you do and none of none of the people that you've brought on this podcast you guys have done 2,000 plus episodes at this point right none of the people that you guys have brought in here you brought in because you're like wow like you're blowing up on social media no you brought them in because you're like you're actually good at something right and look at that like look at the doors I think back to like how I actually got in here like the first time someone asked me the other day like how'd you get a mind pump and I said well Jay Fruja connected us and I don't even know if you guys remember that but Jay said I didn't remember that it was Jay I was actually when you said that I was like who who would first introduce us it was Jay yeah and so then I was like how'd you how'd I get on Jay's when somebody had connected me to Jay and I thought that like that time I went to Jason's and you know I spent time with him at his place at Santa Monica at the time had I not actually been good at what I did and had I not been able to showcase that to him I would have never been here I would have never been here had I not come here the first time when I reached out to you a year later and said hey I want to advertise you would have never let me do it and it all started with the same place and so I think a lot of people are just looking at like the wrong part of the career and quite honestly they shouldn't even be thinking about the quote-unquote career it's like you got to get the skills here's the you just highlighted what we were just talking about as the trainer journey too like so focused on the destination and trying to get oh get to mine pup I'll pay you know $20,000 to be on it but there's nothing for you if you didn't work the journey prove yourself on the way think about the overweight person yeah think about Osempic like and it's you know all the shit that's coming out like you're gonna fucking take a pill you're gonna lose the weight are you gonna keep it off no like you can't skip the journey just Jason I was just gonna say literally that people in fitness if you're if you become a trainer or a coach you probably love fitness or at least you should if you don't probably don't do this but you probably love it and you've been doing it for a while here's the here's the cheat sheet or should I say advantage the advantage is the lessons that you learned on that journey are exactly the same lessons that are gonna you're gonna encounter in business okay so can you go from I can barely do a body weight squat to squatting 300 pounds overnight no how does it work you go practice you suck at it you try oops got to do mobility got to try this other stuff oh here's a weak link here got to maybe do this other exercise move away from squats try something else go back to it and eventually you get to this point where you hit the skull but now you love it so much you're always gonna do it anyway no matter what okay it's the same thing it's the same thing with what you're doing here you took you just said you don't think to yourself like I'm a CEO yeah because that's okay you're gonna learn it's you're gonna suck you're gonna learn you're gonna suck you're gonna learn it's no different than the journey that you've been on with working out with fitness so the reason why I communicate that is when you get into the space to build your business and you run into the struggles remind yourself remind yourself that it's just like when you first started working out it's just like your clients going through this this process it's gonna be the same exact thing so when you're frustrated just like you got frustrated the first time you couldn't do a barbell squat well now you can how can you now well you've been practicing that's all it is literally that's all it is I would add to that too when you first got into it you asked for help right you there was resources out there and there you you sifted through the resources to find the ones that you trusted the ones that had proven themselves to to be worthy by the way when you become a coach there's still resources for you I think that you know one of my favorite things I will humble myself to this day I don't give a shit how many people I've coached I don't give a shit how many businesses I've helped if I don't know the answer I'm going to a resource that can help me find the answer you know when I did my first UFC weight cut I was petrified of rehydrating the guy I knew like guaranteed I'd get the weight off I was like probably gonna change the game the way that I do it compared to them I'm like I don't know shit about rehydration and I called my buddy Tyler Minton and you know he did Habibs like the first time Habib came back he worked with DC and I said bro can you just do the rehydration and teach me and he's like yeah like zero questions asked didn't give a shit he's like we don't have to tell anybody and I'm like dude I'll tell the world like I'm humble enough to ask for help and I think that a lot of people that are afraid to get in because they don't yet have the knowledge need to remember that you know too you know not to talk NCI but the reason that we built NCI the way we did was you know once you're certified you have access to our community for life because I know one day you're going to encounter a challenge that you don't know the answer to that for whatever reason level one didn't equip you for or that whatever reason level two didn't equip you for like we've been as thorough as we possibly can but at some point you're going to encounter a situation that's just different great ask like let me help let one of our instructors help let another community member help and I think that like when you have those things and you remember and you're willing to lean into them it makes the journey a little bit easier nobody had to go through this alone and I you look I'll use an I'll use an example kind of what we're talking about I remember when I really made the realization that the gym industry was wasn't as great as I thought it was I remember in a meeting specifically they showed us the members that make the gym money and the ones that cost the gym money okay and it was I remember it was my heart was heartbroken because the members that lost the gym money were the heavy users and I don't mean heavies and body weight you're consistent frequent users these are people that come in five days a week consistently work out all the time they pay their monthly membership they lose this money because they wear down the equipment they don't buy anything else and that's it plan a Hollywood small or a plan a fitness model who are the people that made the gym money the most money and never came the ones that paid and never came I said whoa this is crazy like this this is not this this doesn't feel right yeah in my in my bones why am I saying that right now because the coaching space is getting flooded with people and it's becoming a race to the bottom who could charge the least and do the most who can create the most volume produce the most you know the best top line but really produce the worst results you can do it differently and be very successful you know it's you guys have proven that by the way it's fun guys have shown that though we we just started looking so a very important metric that we track in the business is the use rate of our products we want 85% that have purchased the product actively engaged and using the product at any given time we'd love a hundred but we know 85% is feasible of the people that don't use it right where do you think they fall off oh god for seven days so there's 14 weeks right in a cohort model for seven days bingo they don't even start yeah that's it these people are willing to put money down and then they don't start and so like that's actually something that we're tackling right now which is like how do we and we've gone in and I think we've done it and we've done some new onboarding things but um ironically for coaches out there you know if you're a coach you're onboarding experience one of the most critical things you have in your business the first 48 hours are so pivotal towards the way that a consumer experiences your product but um yeah it's it's mind blowing to me there is there's something around that I can't imagine building a business predicated on people not using the product like I mean we're aware that it happens every business owner knows but I mean that's what I'm going out that's the reason why I think we all have like a like a subtle distaste for Planet Fitness I mean if it's see your local gym and you got to use it whatever but we know that the model is built off of the idea that we truly don't want people to get fit yeah we don't want them to show up really we want if they did we would go out of business the model is built off of those rates can we make we have figured out a price that is low enough that people will justify paying it even if they don't use it by simply offering free pizza on Fridays because they'll do the math like well if I have three slices of pizza a month that already pays for the membership that covers the membership so even if I don't show the gym that's a no-brainer I'll just pay for and then you attract that type of person if you discourage the guy or girl and the fitted tank top who grunts and gets into their workouts we don't want you here you don't want you'll actually use our equipment yeah and you'll use it hard and you'll wear it down you position it as calling them lungs and that they're that's wild I actually hadn't considered that part of it yeah they're oh no this is 100% bro I hadn't considered like the equipment you it's obvious I understood the like the show upgrade and those things but I hadn't considered like the excessive wear and tear of people that all the way that's how that's how from a business standpoint it's absolutely brilliant but there's the part of me that I have distaste for because I recognize exactly what they went out and did and why they're so madly successful you see the stock plummeted last week they've been they've been because they fired their CEO overnight oh I didn't know that yeah like randomly a board voted him out and then apparently he's gonna stay on the board and still have some sort of advisory role but literally overnight the board voted him out and that day it signaled like lots of questions and so their stock plummeted like 45% in a day I wonder why it's at an all-time low right now here's here's what's crazy to me okay name one thing that if you improve also improves everything else in your life besides your health nothing nothing if you improve your health everything improves and yet you could get a gym membership for nine bucks a month okay that's how that's how terrible of a job our industry's done at actually delivering what health and fitness can really do that people balk at a $50 a month membership okay yeah but we'll spend hundreds of dollars a month on a quick coffee that they get every morning or a cell phone charge or streaming services that's insane to me yeah look Adam knows these numbers we sell a program if they're on sale for 50 or 70 bucks if it's on sale if it's full price around 100 bucks right all right what's our lifetime value about 740 bucks okay so our average customer has invested $700 and our programs when they're on sale are between 50 to 70 bucks that's the one that's the number we're most proud of right there we're so proud of that number I don't care if you get me a million more customers if they don't stick around what am I doing you know what am I doing yeah I mean it's it's the one thing that has the power to literally change everything I mean you know I think back to I would say like losing my dad last year has impacted me way more than I probably like led onto publicly or openly discussed and I think about it every day like it's like dude I would give anything to have him back and my dad was extremely unhealthy and if I could just get him to change his habits like the last two years that he was living I think he'd probably still be here today yeah let's talk and it's and it's just like man like it there's no money involved in that there's no fame involved in that there's nothing that anyone else in the world would even know or experience but I would I'd get to have my dad here Jason here's here's how here's how I'm not going to at the at the threat of painting a super bleak picture here's what we're up against okay think of the average unhealthy consumer and then think of the average healthy consumer okay look at the purchasing habits go to the grocery store what percentage of the products in the grocery store are purchased by unhealthy people versus healthy people something like 80 20 or more like I guess 80 or 90 10 how much money is an unhealthy consumer worth to the pharmaceutical industry versus a healthy consumer think of other purchases clothing well here let me let me anything you can use the numb or you can use the distract the unhealthy consumer is going to consume more so literally we're fighting the entire market so let me touch on that because I think that I had a I had a conversation really interesting conversation with somebody yesterday on the outlook of the health of fitness industry and somebody said you know it's going to be scary to be in health of fitness because there's pills coming out that will destroy the appetite and lose body fat right right so I don't think it's happening but whatever not here to debate it if if the amount of R&D that's going in on the medical side is increasing that much they know they're starting to lose the war a little bit right because like you just said they're they make so much money on lack of health and if they're willing to risk some of that money to now go out and make the money on health you know that times are changing you know that people are starting to at least think about health right so we're making a dent but that dent is nothing like you said earlier like we're still fatter we're still more obese we're still more unhealthy we we still lack lots of knowledge and we haven't even scratched the surface man I just I wonder if I wonder if it's a dent per se or and I actually think we've had this conversation it was one of our first conversations and I and I believe I brought up the point of like I believe that like the the pendulum has swung so far like we're getting so sick so unhealthy it's getting so bad that it inevitably has to come back the other direction and I think we I hope that we have reached that I just I just read a study on the show where they took people who are treated for in the hospital for depression so consider the person right if you get hospitalized for depression it's really bad yep okay they took groups of people they divided them and one group they had them they had a window in the room that face the east that's it open so the sun came up and they got to see the rising sun as it rose right they were in the hospital three days less from that wow three days less now what are the incentives for the medical industry to build rooms like that for zero in fact the incentives of the opposite we're going to lose money if we if we put them in rooms one facing west we can't because they're going to be out three days earlier that's that's what that study actually does it actually gives them an incentive to do the opposite look at the mental health studies and for sure by the way there's some evil person building a building that absolutely 100 million percent knows that stat and that person is I guarantee you not healthy but to speak to what you said and like the pendulum right we've swung so far to the state of like lack of health that it's starting to come the other way concurrent with the rate of growth of the marketing shit is actually scary to me yeah because now we're going to start the swing backwards and and I think this is what you are seeing is now you're just seeing fear mongering yeah now you're you're seeing every day yeah oh you're your guts fucked up your hormones are fucked up your thyroid's fucked up like you're so fucked up you have to have me and it's like no like by the way like dig into and I've done this like I I research what everybody puts out there because I'm fascinated and I love to learn like I'm actually hoping that I learn something a lot of times what I uncover is that virtually everyone's saying the same thing which at the core of most things health and fitness is really just stress control to facilitate adaptations like which the opening statement I've made in every certification is this whole game is predicated on stress and adaptation you know what I think we need to do better because I think I don't think this is the answer but I think this is this is part of the strategy that will be effective for too long fitness and health has been sold by the aesthetics and and I get that if you're fit and healthy you look better yep a fact right health radiates you're probably gonna look leaner you're gonna have better posture all that stuff so everybody who are connected that here's what we're not selling enough the mental health benefits amen in fact if you were look at the benefits of fitness and exercise and you were looking at physiological health benefits and mental health benefits the mental health benefits actually occur faster and more consistently and what are we suffering for from right now in terms of we have a terrible health that epedemic to begin with anxiety and depression anxiety and depression exploding here's the fucked up part and nothing does it better than health and fitness let's go back to our government friends though they're never going to approve us talking about that and like we talked about all the FTC shit right like you want to go back to us now making statements in advertising or anywhere publicly that this shit works bro we will fucking have did you see did you see we'll have ages talking about ourselves like did you see what talking to Lauer just posted no pull it up though he just this is just this morning I just saw I was telling the guys out on the way here yeah uh supposedly talking about sunlight YouTube is pulling like any any health professionals that are talking about sunlight being yeah healthy and so that's in your content now it's going to get I'm telling you the minute you start putting out truth that goes against what we were talking about on the medical side because right now yeah like brain health like medical you know things like depression mental health is so big like the the amount of money they're making is so fucking high that if we start talking about simple shit like movement like fucking working out eating better and we actually start core we create the correlation they're going to sue us Jason let me ask you give me their property read that read this real quick before you just go yeah under the new YouTube guidelines for health information they have categorized sunlight in the medical category that means that only content from doctors and a quote-unquote approved sources can have videos on sunlight be visible on real yeah so let look let me ask you this Jason you've been working out for a long time is the way you look in the top five reasons why you continue to do it or is mental health in the top five so I'll be very honest when I started all I cared about was how it looked because that's where it started 100% I'll tell you today mental health is probably higher and like like I'll give you this statement last time I came here I told you guys that I was struggling with the notion of like losing weight and like the way I was going to look on today right like like we talked openly about that I'll tell you today like a genuinely like the way somebody perceives me to look I give zero fucks that's amazing I've come so far since like we did that podcast and like you know obviously like my friends in my inner circle knows like I'm pursuing playing golf at like a higher level and so I've you know just done things that are functional for that and obviously I've lost some muscle and so yeah like at times I challenge like my own identity in a gym I'm like oh I can't you know I can't squat 500 anymore and like so it's still like bums me out but like I'm very confident in where I'm at and let me tell you man like 19 year old anorex a kid that almost killed saying confident in his skin yeah you're gonna tell me exercise doesn't work yeah like are you shitting me it's that's 20 years of proof that that fucking works the data on depression anxiety are clear now it shows that fitness outperforms everything health and fitness outperforms and everything with those here's how messed up it is by the way in the mental health space there's research and data now coming out on what used to be categorized as illegal psychedelic drugs for mental health here's why they're scared this has nothing to do with health and fitness but just to kind of highlight what I'm talking about they all show in studies that treatments with some of these things where somebody will go in for treatment resistant depression we'll get one or two treatments and have no depression for a year or two years yeah that scares the shit out of the pharmaceutical industry because they're trying to figure out how they can make how can we make money on something you take once yeah that doesn't make any sense can we rework this in a way to where you take it on a regular basis yeah the incentives are in the opposite direction this is what we're up against yeah no it's scary man like it's a it's a scary world we live in and this only reinforces the need for yes like people to get on the front lines that want to be on the front lines yes right and what we're talking about now is more serious than finance like we're not talking about people on the front lines to make money we're talking about people on the on the fucking front lines to save the health of humans one of my favorite things to do and we do this in an indirect way also full disclosure we do this indirectly all the time because we know it's more effective but we try to teach other coaches and trainers how to sell the message yeah effectively by selling it ourselves yeah because that's that's what you have to do that's called leadership bro like that's there's nothing wrong with that like in my opinion that's called leadership and I think that's you guys leave that by example and I think that's why you guys are where you are the staying power of this podcast is unbelievable and you know listen as as a company that advertises here that we've done you know events together and you guys come speak at our events when we say the name mind pump and the things that it represents the there's a raving group of fans out there that cannot wait to meet you guys to connect with you guys to I mean the the Q&A that you guys did privately for us last year was packed I mean I I've never seen that many people come to registration because you guys were doing the Q&A and it's like you've never sold yourselves as like come meet us it's like we're gonna put the truth out and people want to be around the truth and I think that that right there man it says everything and I think as an industry how do we mimic that yeah I think the biggest takeaway from this conversation for all the coaches and trainers that are listening is and I hear this so I want to make sure we say it again is that the market is oversaturated with bad coaches yep which means there's massive opportunity totally for good people coming to space so do not fool yourself to think that oh there's no room for me or there's not opportunity for me because I see all these posts I see all these fitness people it's really a lot of people doing it the wrong way the bad way the unhealthy way the unsustainable way which means there's this massive opportunity for you to come in and we lightly touched on it I didn't get a chance to tell you because I actually have a couple really good friends that own gyms or manage gyms still in in the space and it's at the talent is less yeah so even though we have more knowledge more abilities to get certified and educated and easier access of wisdom you have less qualified less talented trainers that are out there helping our people so if you're listening to this and wondering if I should get involved or do this because I'm I'm passionate but I'm scared because you think it's no it is not you're gonna crush yeah there is wait I I actually feel like there's more opportunity today it's kind of like such a bad analogy but I'll throw it out there anyway it's kind of like politics right now like you know like there's not a very good choice and so if if you are somebody that wants to get into politics it's like now's your opportunity right because nobody wants to hence why a non-politician one just right right exactly right no but I mean yeah I couldn't agree more man I mean obviously I get to see I get to see so much right I get to see behind the scenes of so many of the businesses and I get to see the numbers the growth and what people don't realize that I see is the level of coaching and you know you asked me earlier businesses that I I respect those people create unreal results and that's what I respect the most man is like there I know I know coaches that will like live and die for their clients like I had a this is what I've always believed to be true when I was a coach I had a client that could not get the answers she wanted from a doctor in Oregon and I was living in Virginia at the time and she's like I have this doctor's opinion or doctor's appointment I just I don't know how it's gonna go and I was like dope I was like what time is it tomorrow she's like three in the afternoon and I was like cool there's a flight that'll get me in like 11 a.m. and I boarded the flight and I flew my ass out to Oregon yeah and I went to the doctor's appointment and I was like here's the answers we need that's it like this is all I'm trying to understand for like the journey you're taking my client on and imagine the impact you made on that client bro I can tell you because she went from struggling overweight her whole life to I'm not saying I did anything magical and protocols so I can by all means I did not but I gave her the belief in herself that like she could do this and and I think that I mean she went on to lose all the way to be very confident she now is a family like it's it's pretty wild like how her life turned around we are working with people who've had lots of people give up on them and here's the worst part they gave up on themselves yep so when they see a coach that refuses to give up yep that's everything right there it is it is man and I think that that's like again I'm so grateful for what this has given me in my like in my life I mean I I don't think that I would be experiencing life the way I experience it now without this industry but like I say all the time you know I would never wish anorexia on my own worst enemy but I made it through and I know what it's like to be at the bottom and I believe it was placed in my life to show me and directly connect to how people are feeling that are left alone that are at the bottom and that are you know lacking that light that vision to potentially get out and you know I want no person left behind man I think that that's that's who we have to become as an industry no one left behind no one not cared about and everybody given an opportunity for success I'm gonna add one other thing Jason because today's world's a little scary with I don't know for lack of a better term cancel culture yeah or social media we just read something from YouTube yeah and so someone might be like oh god but I I want to say these things but I'm afraid they're gonna the algorithm's gonna make it so that I'm not visible and you know that I'm you know if I say meat is healthy then they're gonna say you're harming the environment or whatever right and here's what I'm gonna say you make friends and connections with people who are like you like we have you in our corner we have other friends in our corners and I'll say this right now I fucking dare you to try to shut us down because we'll all work together and it'll be really fucking hard and that's and I'm encouraging coaches to work together don't compete with each other in the sense that you're trying to take each other down work together there are nine billion fucking people in this world if you think you're competing with each other you are way you're not as good as you think appreciate that no if you if you you're you look at your peers be be competitive with wanting to go out there and care more than anybody else lead with that nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care we've gotten away from that message for a long time now in our space when you look at the landscape and your peers don't compare to their money don't compare to their transformation compare that I care more I'm willing to get on a plane even if there's not an ROI for it right away and bro I wasn't doing millions right let me tell you let me let me let me lead with that and I promise you I promise you it's a slower game but it compounds and you you'll be here still 10 15 years later I'm gonna be changing lives yeah thanks Jason thank you brother appreciate it dude got it