This is a buff, which means that I have no responsibility whatsoever what is happening the next 45 minutes. It is a collective effort meaning that it's everybody else. I hope others take more responsibility than me and one thing you can do is you can join the gobby and write what we are finding out here. So how many of you know what WebID is or maybe the opposite? How many of you have no clue what a WebID is? Fair enough. No, it's perfectly fine.  I was exercising that just 15 minutes ago also. So WebID is one piece of a larger puzzle that is called the semantic web. WebID is the ability to authenticate on what has exercised, there's two levels of this, what has been practiced the most at the moment and then there's the possibilities, technicalities, details later. So I will tell the simple story of what has been practiced the most. You have a client-side certificate on your web browser and you access a web server and the web server is verifying you not by the certifier of your certificate but instead by a hint that you also include on the client-side certificate that points to another web page that you own which has more information about you. So that's the very short version of WebID. Is there anybody who still has no clue what I have just said? Do any of you know about the underlying thing called fof, friend of a friend network? Someone is nodding. One was nodding. Anybody heard about the thing called Facebook? Okay, someone is laughing. Someone is trying to combine the knowledge of who are your friends by who are your friends friends. So when you log into Facebook the first time, if you only tell one of your friends, then instantly it can pop up and say, oh, if you know that person, maybe you know this person also. That is part of this logic of graphing your relationships and relationships can not only be about friends, it can also be about knowledge in other ways. So the thing that I have a passport and this passport is issued by this government and someone trusts this government to issue passports. This is also a graph of relationship about facts. So one of the things that have been tested the most in relation to WebID and fof is this playing with friendships and how you can build trust based on friendships. Now, most of us in this room probably know that that is pure evil because that is what Facebook is doing. But it might not be the only way that you are reasoning and verifying on facts. It could be other chains of fact chasing that you are doing than the fact chasing of who are your friends, if I know your friends, I know who you are in bed with. It could also be things like what we are actually doing, practicing with PGP by showing a passport and then reasoning that well, if this passport looks pretty nice, then it probably is issued from the government that is printed on the paper. This buff is spawned by the interest to have Debian use WebID as a way to identify the users, the developers and the maintainers in Debian against the Debian services which could then also be used for outside services. It is a little tricky if we are starting completely from scratch with what is WebID because then maybe we cannot reach the point of discussing how we actually are going to use it. Is anybody in the room, you knew about WebID. Is anybody else, is someone knowledgeable about semantic web in here or am I the only one? You know something about semantic web, you also? Could you maybe help me in explaining this? I tried one angle of this and I have a feeling that I was a little confusing in the way I was explaining it.  Does anyone hear me? Yeah. Okay. Basically you separated the semantic information that you want to publish, make it machine readable so that other instances like semantic web browsers can read this information and graph them to the user as he wants it displayed. So basically as I understood it, you make machine readable information as replacement for what we do these days with HTML documents and do the presentation at the user, at the client side. Yeah. That's what I wanted to say. Sure. I'm not quite sure how to move on from here. If we can try to talk about WebID without people really certain about what we're talking about here. How many of you know OpenID as a mechanism to separate the authentication from the services? Okay. That was a little better. So one of the ideas of OpenID is that you separate, the service itself shouldn't contain your, you shouldn't remember your passwords. You should be able to separate that and have the passwords in a trusted place. So you have a third party saying go or no go for is this person saying who he is, who he claims he's saying. WebID is similar in that fashion, but with the differences that the way that you are expressing this verification process is done using this technology of semantic web. So what is the power of that, as far as I understand it, is that you are in control of this third party. You can set up your own service that provides this verification process where OpenID is you, the two services, the services, the web mail service and the OpenID service, the authentication service and the actual service you want to reach, they need to exchange some information with each other in order to have this verification process work. And as far as I understand it, the WebID design avoids revealing some of the information to the, for instance, the email service, the web mail service. You can separate this more strong. Another stronger separation is also in the approach from Mozilla called BrowserID. Now it's been renamed to Persona. One of the weaknesses of Persona and BrowserID is that it's tied to the browser. That means that it's when you are interactively on your web browser, you can let your browser, you can pass on the verification process to your browser and it has, it contains the identifier. Something similar to the certificates but a new design that stays within the browser. The flaw of that or the weakness of that is that you can only do it as a user sitting next to your browser. You cannot pass on the task to an agent working on your behalf. If you, for instance, have a, if you want to tell one of your robots to figure out what is the cheapest price for flying to, to Hong Kong, then you cannot have this robot acting on your behalf, on your behalf. For instance, if you had extra cheap tickets, if you identify who you are, you cannot pass it on to a different machine, a different identity. And WebID has this, it's machine readable, it's machine operable. It's not tied to, it must be a human operated service. Yes? With the microphone, please. So if I would like to test one of these technologies today, are there any bigger sites using them? There is only test sites, there is only demo sites using, using WebID today. But some of the demo sites is also functioning as open ID sites. You can, you can set up a WebID authentication which is then providing a service that is open ID. Open ID with its weakness of revealing too much information is a weaker form of authentication and then WebID. But you can weaken your WebID service and have it also act as an open ID service, if you like. So if you want to interact with the larger world today and play with whatever, what can you do with, if I have a WebID, then you can set up or you can use, if you trust an open ID service that authenticates using WebID. I mean, some, some, some WebID, some, some open IDs, the most open IDs I know of, when you log into those, you have to type in a password, so you have to memorize a password. If you imagine that the user side of that, instead of replacing the having to show a password with having to present a client side certificate, which it then verifies using your full ID on running on your server. So you can, you can chain load an open ID with WebID. Okay, okay. I was just asking because it would be nice to see the usability with normal users. So if I would send a few lines of instructions to a few people with different platforms to see if they managed to log in. So that's why I was asking for actual real life usage of WebID or browser ID, because I, I don't know if there are those. I have used open ID myself. Yeah. The browser ID, I haven't, I haven't played with it myself. I believe that it works in recent versions of Mozilla, obviously that's the ones that driving this. I'm not even sure if it, if it exists in, in, in Chromium and others yet. So, so with this in mind, I just wonder if it's too early for Debian to start using this technology, if it's not widely used or do you think that by having Debian use it, it could become more accepted? What I think is that the way I see it is WebID is working now and has been working for quite some time because the, the structure of WebID is that it's standardizing different use cases of existing certificate with TLS. So there's no new invention in the technical parts of this. It's already used in the browsers. There are some weaknesses in the user experience of handling certificates. And there are some works on some of, some of the things that makes it more user-friendly if you, if you do some extra work today is that you sidestep a little bit and run a JavaScript-based certificate generation. That is security-wise bad because you don't, you didn't have a chunk of code that you don't really verify because you loaded it from a web server. Yeah. I think these are exactly the issues because I've never seen mobile users use client-side certificates with the browsers. They won't even recognize the term. I only seen people in companies using these on company laptops and they haven't installed them but the staff of the company has installed them. So I wonder what sort of usability issues we're going to run into? Well, the reason that happens is companies typically have some kind of CA. And so the, the, the PKI is taken care of, whereas if it's not a hierarchical organization, that's, that tends to be a problem. Okay. And a question on, on IRC, whether WebID is related to OAuth? Ah, no, it is not. OAuth is, as I understand it, is OAuth is tied to the open ID way of doing things. WebID is independent from this. Okay. So some of the, well, this, this question of whether it's, it's, it's usable right now. It's, it's, there's this, there's this chicken and egg problem of web browsers don't really see the, the relevancy of improving the client-side certificates because, well, it's dead in the water, that's not really used anymore. But the point is that, well, it could be used if it is used in a different way than the hierarchical certification that it, that it was intended for. Well, it was promoted for, for, for a long time. But is it true that mobile browsers don't support client authentic, client certificates? Not that, as far as I know, that would be news for me. Okay. I don't, I don't, I don't think that it, that it's the case that, that they don't support client-side certificates. I think that it's the case that they don't have the kind of, of a user interface for managing, importing, from outside. Maybe they don't have the external storage. If you don't have a file system, then you cannot say, open up and import this pks12 file because you don't have a file system to install it from. So that, that might be the, the situation that it has cut some wings. So you need to operate only within the browser. Okay. So as I understand it, what is, what is usable now and is claimed to actually even be user-friendly now is to do it by loading JavaScripts that then makes a shim over the things that the web browsers do not, the web browsers do not do elegantly yet.  So another stronger argument of, of a, a skepticism about, about WebID is that the test cases done now, until now is test cases, both about tied to this ontology called the, the fof, friend of a friend, which is, which is exposing your information about your friendships publicly. You didn't, you don't need, in principle you don't need to publish your information you could just share in secret circles, but that has not been practiced, that has not been tested because that is more complex to do. You need to run some interactive servers instead of static web pages. You need to publish. So it's more complex to set up a test environment for, for doing that. And also when doing the actual verification triangle with WebID, what has been tested the most is using what I've been talking about all the time until now, these, these certificates of TLS transport. But really the WebID design don't need to use certificates. It could use other means of ensuring that the transport is, is established safely. So in the most recent draft of the, oops, of the WebID specifications, yeah, here, no. There's the WebID specification and then there's the recent draft of it. In the recent draft they have split it up in two different specifications, one called WebID and one called WebID TLS to emphasize that well, WebID itself need not use TLS for its establishing the, the secure exchange between these endpoints. It's just the one that has been practiced the most. It's the one that has been tested the most. There are other ways to do it. One of them might be using Tor, TorOnion URLs. The only thing that, that WebID, the, the, the core design requires is that it is using URIs. So you can use different URIs than HTTP or HTTPS URIs. It could also use a PDP URI if you want to. Then you need to define that PDP URI and you need to exercise how to interact with these PDP URIs. But in principle, there's no, nothing in the long, longer term to, to against having a different kind of security structure than the one which is tied to the domain name system that some theme as being completely useless and flawed and tied to this WebID, WebID sidesteps from the hierarchy of certificate issuing. But it does not sidestep from, it's tied to domain names in the WebID plus TLS implementation. But that can also be avoided by other implementations, other sub-implementations and the TLS one. So one of, one of the things that, that I see could be relevant in Debian now is not to have Debian provide services that our mothers and our sisters and, and, and friends can use similar to OpenID. What I imagine that we could do is the, some of the services that we now provide that we need a lot of access to inject a PDP key to issue a temporary or a different single, a simple key phrase for a service. Instead of having a key phrase, we can have it spit out a certificate that we could use. So that we could have our interactions with our services being possible to do with web services. We could pass on to our agents individually without it having to being hard coding a simple number that is then used, stored in clear text on our machines. So we could start using these structures that are standardized and then on the back end we can use semantic web tools to, to juggle with the data that we are, are fetching that way. So, but if most of the crowd here is more interested in hearing what this could be instead of discussing it, then I don't, this was not, this is not what I had prepared for. Okay. I can see that there's a lot of things filled in on the copy. So one of, one of the, one of the benefits that I could see in, in, in moving from this current LDAP based activation of a, of having an account on a service to using WebID is that we could decide that from the beginning we could, we would bootstrap it with all of the Debian maintainers or the Debian developers that already have an account on our systems, but it would be quite easy to then extend a network. For instance, some of the Debian.net machines might want to say, well, we want to, we want to trust and give access to all of the people that have an account on Debian and all of the people in this other circle that is some, in some other way is bootstrapping and setting up their WebID authentication. So you could have other, you can have, you can join multiple networks in that way. And that means that we could easily expand services to include more people. It could be that one of our big derivatives is setting up WebID the similar way. What Ubuntu is doing at the moment, as I understand it, is that they're running things on a centralized server at Ubuntu where they authenticate against their identifier-based services. But that is tight, that is centralized and we cannot really collaborate with those except if we use maybe OAuth, which means that then they are tracking every time we are doing things. There's another question from IRC or rather a suggestion to check HTTP colon slash slash WebID dot Debian dot net slash as a start. Yes, I have been there and that side just redirects to the, to the wiki page. Ah, okay. Which is introducing that Debian, Debian now has Fooved profiles, auto-generated for all Debian developers, all package maintainers, both for people in Debian and for people that don't have an account in Debian. I have this odd situation myself that the way it's generated is from your email address, and I don't use my Debian email address. So I have no fof profile for my account in Debian. I only have a fof profile for us being. I'm treating it as an external person. So an example of what you can do now, this is not WebID fully. There's no authentication service anywhere. This is only the part of having some profile that can then be the third thing that you reference against, as you make the look up against. If you come with your certificate and say, well, I am this person, you can just go here and verify that it's true. Then it's the third point. The funny thing about that is, well, the third point is supposed to be in your control. And this third point is in Debian's control. This is a Debian service generating fof profiles. So you want to build something that works on a global scale, or do you want to build something for Debian and assorted, trusted, other organizations? Because then one thing you could do is Debian has the Debian key ring, which is strongly connected. Debian has some. So you could use the key fingerprint as your WebID URL, and then look that up. And if the GBG key is sufficiently authenticated, it's the right person, something like that. WebID, Debian already has ways to authenticate Debian members, Debian account members. You want to get rid of the central server. And using the key ring would do that, because you could put the key ring on each machine. So you wouldn't require trust relationships between the machines, and you wouldn't even require active network connections between the machines. How would I verify that it's the right person? Anybody could claim that they have my email address, and you could look up that it's the key. So then I would be using signed emails to verification. Oh, what do you mean? OK, let me try to answer your question instead of bouncing it back. As I see it, it makes sense to have Debian provide a service for the same people that it already provides other services for. The benefit of using WebID instead of using the current services, the current mechanisms of authenticating its users is that this new service is a standardized format for service for decentralized authentication, which means that a Debian plus Fedora service, some third party or a Debian service that is meant to be for Debian people and for Fedora people, can then say, oh, great, we have this standardized way of doing things. We don't want a copy of all your passwords to your logins. And we also don't want to have a pipeline to your GPG keys in Fedora land. We just want you to run this standardized service just as we are running a standardized service. And then we can, every time people log in, it will resolve that it will verify at our end or it will refer at your end, because it's verified at each user's own end. The thing is, what Obergeeks has provided until now is a demo of it is possible to generate a profile for each user at the Debian server. And a service has his running. But really, to make this really work, I should not have my certificate point to his service, because his service is no proof that I am me. If I'm pointing to a server that I own, then I prove that I am me. So if I point to a server and the server certificate on my server is also tied to me, then I have identified that. Then I have proven that the identifier that is running around on some web browser is tied to some server, the owner of the server. So sure, if my server is hacked, but then it's the same thing as if I lose my keyring, my key to lock myself in. The core idea of WebID is to separate, to have the authentication process being multiple points, instead of being everything contained within one point. So you're not running around with a key that contains every valuable details for you to lock into a keyhole, because you maybe don't trust the keyhole. And it might be a complex thing to verify if the keyhole is trusted, and if the key is trusted, and if we trust to reach each other and verify each other. So that's the way it's a chain loading of things. The server that does the complex things, you're running itself, but you're running it somewhere else, so you don't need to run around with all the complex stuff. Elsa, a hand up. Oh. On the topic of exploiting the GNU PG web of trust, and I'm sorry if you covered this before. Not at all. Possibly. Peace. One of the criticisms that I read when the WebID idea was discussed is that this reliance on an existing CA infrastructure. And I'm aware that there was some work from the GNU PG maintainers when GNU PG2 started out of generating X509 certificates from the same key pairs that you use for the GPG stuff. So I wanted to know if anybody knows of the status of this, and if this is still a thing that we could use for migrating people, or not migrating, but exploiting the web of trust and creating X509 certificates for WebID. Anybody know about this? Possibly. But OK. Do I puzzle things, or is that somewhat the direction that monkey sphere is going? Doesn't it? It works also based on GNU PG keys. Someone might kill me because I don't really, really understand monkey sphere. But as I understand monkey sphere, it is about bridging between different technologies, different protocols. So when certificates are hierarchical certificate certification is fundamentally broken, we don't trust the kind of trust that they want us to trust. Then monkey sphere is bypassing that by linking up to the PDP Web of Trust. So it's using the PDP Web of Trust to verify certificates. The one in control of the certificate might have gotten it from somewhere. It doesn't matter because this same person signs the certificate with the PDP key. And then all of the users then look up in PDP. Is it a person in the PDP Web of Trust that I trust, myself, that has signed this certificate? So it sidesteps this using PDP. From Gunnar Wolf. Monkey sphere is rather about presenting a human-friendly and human-meaningful face to GBG key signatures and so on. Thank you. Could you send the microphone back? I really like the idea of WebID to know, but whereas your problem is the role of the user, how do you expect this to happen? Sure, we all are techs. We all probably run our own servers at home to set the WebID part for ourselves up. But as it goes to non-tech people, most of them don't have any servers hanging around. Would it be acceptable for the concept of WebID to have little clusters of friends that everyone has a techie in his area of friends so that one does like one stores the WebIDs of a group of people? Would that be acceptable? Well, that is the same as asking me, is it acceptable for teenagers that their parents have a key to their diaries? Well, that depends on each circle. The policies are different. What I just wanted to emphasize was that, yes, these security issues that I have heard being raised is possible to avoid, but that makes things more complicated. If you're not using DNS, then you are not using DNS, and that makes things not very user-friendly for a long time forward, because then you need to have built Tor into your web browser, and that is a different task. But that's not an argument to say that, well, WebID is not user-friendly. No, WebID, if you insist that it must re-implement the whole web as we know it, then it is not user-friendly yet. So similarly, what has been tested and played with until now is WebID using TLS. And TLS has some quirks in its user-friendliness that is currently worked around by running some JavaScript.  Everybody has a Facebook ID anyway, so we just, all of us, log in there. I mean, I'm not joking here. I'm saying that is what people are doing now and have done for many years, not many, a couple of years at least. I mean, independent services not tied to Facebook are using Facebook as identifier, as authentication mechanism, which is completely insane. So compared to that, it is much better that I personally set up some mechanism that people can offload some JavaScript they don't know shit about so that they can magically have some access, because that's what they care about. That's user-friendliness is not caring about the security, not caring about what's going on.  And looking from that perspective, it's better that I set up a service, or Uber Geeks, who already set up a service for Debian people. That's much, much better than Debian using Facebook. Now, so we're talking about different kinds of situations here. If you're talking about the user-friendliness, you're not talking about Debian developers. If you're talking about security, you're not talking about the need for independent service. So Debian developers trust Debian to some extent already. We are running all of the code via Debian. So we should trust Debian. So we don't have the same kind of trust issue with the service running at Debian. But if you are judging Web ID as a technology, then it's very interesting to look at, is it possible to make it more user-friendly? Is it possible to make it more secure? If both things are possible, then both things combined might also be possible over time if we develop the things to do it. Both things are not medically done over time. And we need to work towards that. But as I said, you can kill Web ID by saying it's not user-friendly. You can kill it by saying it's not secure enough. But both of them is like, then you're not looking at Web ID. You are looking at Web ID as it's implemented in a buggy way using the current world buggyness. So it's the current world that is buggy. It's not Web ID in principle. Does that make sense? There's another question. Oh, the people want to. What would be the follow-up for this both discussion? Obergeeks has already implemented some steps. He's asking, or? Obergeeks is asking. Obergeeks is asking.  Well, I can. Hello. Obergeeks, that's for you to decide. There's some people jotting down what we're talking about here. I hope that could be helpful for Obergeeks and me, at least, and for anyone else who might not be scared by this, but by be excited by this so far, to try work further on putting the pieces together so that we can have some maybe more understandable proof of concept or demo for use by Debian. Obergeeks is asking, who's in charge of sso.debian.org? FTP master. DSA, DSA. My judgment, my guess is that from the current stand of the dialogue, the discussion we've had in Debian Devel, DSA is not currently interested in activating any WebID on Debian systems, because there has been raised some skepticism about the security and also the sanity of even playing with WebID at all, because it has been argued that it is looping around TLS problems. So even if you start out with the problems and then you try to solve it, then you're ending up with the server-side TLS still being needing the hierarchical trust. I was bouncing that criticism to the developers at w3c.org and was encouraging them to respond in Debian because it doesn't need any authentication to any subscription to post to Debian Devel. But unfortunately, none of them did do that. They wrote very long arguments back and forth about why this is not the case, and Debian has misunderstood completely. But the people in developing this WebID is also some of them philosophers, and they are complex to digest, at least for me. So what I was hoping for was that they would condensing their argument why WebID is just perfect, and then they could throw that at Debian and we could have a continued discussion in Debian Devel. So at the moment, the status right now for Debian as a larger scale and DSA is, as I feel, is that, well, it's unsolved if WebID is trustworthy and sane to do. It's also linked from the Wiki page. When you go to WebID, Debian Net, WebID, Debian Net has a link to the Wiki page. The Wiki page has a link to, was supposed to have a link to the email, not to the email that, no, it doesn't. I remember wrongly this session has a link to the threat on Debian Devel. The threat on Debian Devel was someone with, I think maybe it was me mentioning WebID. What about WebID? And UberGeek says, well, we already have a sort of WebID. We have fof. And then someone else says, what is all this? And then nobody could really answer this. That's, Russ Aubrey is coming with a lengthy one with that. Never heard about it before, and now I looked at it, and it seems not good. And then there's a threat about me trying to defend it, not really understanding how to defend myself against Russ Aubrey. And calling for help by DKG. And DKG is saying, yeah, he agrees with Aubrey. Damn. So someone has written here on the gubby, why don't we use distributed authentication like the Web of Trust, meaning the DPD, the PGP, Web of Trust that we already have? Well, that is what we are doing now, so to speak, in that we have the LDAP service that is, well, we're doing it some ways now. And yes, we could do it in other ways. One way it could do would be to link this to Monkeysphere, maybe, if I understand Monkeysphere correctly. But one of the powers of WebID is that it is designed around webby objects, meaning all of the things that can be linked on the open data world, which is the open world wide web, public data, and all the things that can be linked in similar fashion but in closed networks. I'm emphasizing this other part so that it's not only about, if you publish all your data to the open world, to the whole world, then it is exciting. It is also exciting if you lock all your things up, but then you link the things against each other the same way as the worldwide web is doing things. What I see as powerful in that is that there's a lot of tools to handle web resources. There's less tools to handle custom resources in whatever data format that you invent yourself, and then you tie it to GPT directly. So yes, to me, it could be very interesting to have WebID extend WebID with an WebID dash, a PGP authentication mechanism instead of a WebID TLS mechanism, but saying that, oh, we don't even need WebID. We could just use PGP directly. That would be inventing something we hack together, which is not really scalable to other things. So we couldn't reuse such a design across the board to Fedora or any other free software or other projects. There's another question from IRC. How can one experiment and use the metadata published at WebID-Debian.net? Oh, OK. Could you repeat the question? How can one experiment and use the metadata published at WebID-Debian.net? There's a website, WebID.info, that generally introduces to WebID. And through that, and yes, it's confusing, you can also dock.go or Google or whatever you prefer for WebID and some of the information there. But WebID.info, and then follow that to some of the example pages, some of the more recent example pages that is still working. Then the places where it says, oh, and now you should use your fof file. Then you can actually point to this page. What is called WebID-Debian.net really, essentially now, is what others call a fof profile. WebID is the whole triangle, the whole process protocol to exchange data where fof profiles is one key element. And what is produced now is fof profiles for all Debian developers, gathering the data that is already public and expressing it machine readable, grouped by each identifier, each person. So every time that in WebID context that it says, oh, now you should use your fof profile, you don't need to write one yourself from scratch. You can take this profile and then start out from that one. Are we out of time? Okay. Oh, okay. Thanks a lot for joining, and for your patience here, I was, I'm sorry I didn't prepare a presentation about this, there was a little fussy here. But that's the goppy now. I believe that me or Obergeeks will try to look through the goppy and then post an email to, I guess, DebianDebel or wherever the other thread was also going on. And then we'll see what comes out of this. Thanks a lot.


So good afternoon everybody. The toughest spot to have, huh? After lunch and The only way I can entertain you is I've asked all my panelists to tell us a whole lot of stories a lot of brand examples a lot of Real-life campaigns that they've taken a life or taken life and what's worked for them So I hope we can keep you awake while the summer crumbles there I have an esteemed panel here with me and we're going to talk today about brand identity Expanded to brand messaging by brand personality brand values and how essentially can you have your brand? consistently represented across the different channels that you know the brands are today using and You guys want to quickly We have just quickly the names introduction and then we will start so you know exactly who we're talking to My name is Barun. I oz marketing at live space Neha here, I lead brand and social for the food delivery business Hey guys, I'm Rahul co-founder of Tamarov media one of the largest current production and creative at companies down south I have you on I'm harsh now and I had marketing for books don't you agree? Hi, I'm actually I'm the Sierra for Tyru media Thank you. So, you know as marketers and as experienced People who have probably taken your brands across different channels through different new product introductions and things like this What is your approach to an only channel presence or you know choosing multiple channels? What are the challenges you typically face when you're putting together a strategy like that and What are the opportunities that you've been able to leverage the question is open to all the panellists like two three of you to come in with some examples here A lot of it would come down to the media consumption habits that the audience that they are trying to cater to For each of the campaign like sometimes you might want to reach out to slightly younger folks So your media choices would vary Let's say if you're reaching out to let's say a slightly older cohort your choices will again vary So it's kind of coming down to who you want to drive the message across to and what are their touch points? Wouldn't that also be what your brand wants to say to those touch points? I mean to those I think you you customize according to those touch points is where I'm started because There's obviously a constant message that you want everywhere, but you've got to adapt that message to the touch point as well I cannot say the same 20-second a story or no Let's say a TV ad or probably if I've got a longer form of communication. I probably cannot do that in offline universe So I did still always won't cut it So a lot of it will have to stem out from. Hey, I've got this message. Here's a touch point How do I kind of customize according to this one? So any specific challenge that you've come through When you're trying to you know go across three four channels I think the challenge is probably having a better planning funnel because you've got a I think it's not very very difficult to customize everything Because if you're in it, I think with proper planning you can kind of sort it out because Again, you wouldn't want to lose out on the right folks at that very touch point So you've got a plan for it instead Yeah You know, there are brands who are looking to you know be at channels which where their Customers are right and typically We've seen social channels which are and just adding to what you're saying is that we've seen typically brands when they come up They they have you know their communication everything sorted out But when it comes to certain channels which are new for them, they they don't have The right kind of assets, etc. And the communication that needs to go for that channel itself For example, you know, there is snap, right snap It's very high on augmented reality and you know engagement levels, etc. But when brands want to utilize those channels They struggle In how do they translate their current communication? Into It's a very valid point actually I'm going to definitely come back and get an example from you over here Sorry, Tina just one point to add. So I think in addition to what you said, right about who do we want to speak to? And like what you said about what is it that we want to talk to the consumer? I think one challenge that we face isn't really measuring How it's done right versus the objective So I think in addition to who you're speaking to and what you want to tell them It's also very important to have the objective in mind what are you out there to do, right? Are you trying to get more consumers? Are you trying to engage them? Because accordingly we can also measure how the campaign has performed how each channels perform to drive that objective So I think both parts of it having the objective in place is an important part of the framework that we have And it is the challenge to measure how it's doing as well. So absolutely So maybe you know Harshini can you spend some time telling us about the constraints that you face when you're looking at Omni channel? Yeah, so just to add to a few points Apart from what already everyone mentioned is when we think of a brand-like group stone Which is truly Omni channel by itself, right? We have 170 plus stores currently and we start off as an online brand The biggest challenge that we also faces at a brand level We have decided what our story is we have created a campaign we're using multiple channels to You know Communicate that but the essence of it starts from the DNA of the employees, right when you talk about 170 plus stores You're talking about hundreds and thousands of retail employees, you know meeting customers every other day So are they aware of the brand identity the tone of voice, right? So the brand and marketing Work doesn't stop only at campaigns But also how that the brand ethos the brand identity trickles down to each employee Whether it's the customer care representative or the detail stuff, which is important for the customer to feel and experience that also when they You know Experience the brand at different touch points The the products of course are very important So giving you an example of our campaign that we launched around the last festive season It was called laughs and the little things because we believe in celebrating little moments, right and the product itself was an innovative watch jewelry, right so Explaining that to the employees as well to talk about the essence of the campaign when meeting customers or interacting with customers Something which is important Because what you're talking about is a watch jewelry How do you bring up cross the brand persona and what the brand stands for in a product like that? Which is so difficult to talk about across channels. So it was challenging But it was extremely exciting and we will love for that campaign and the product itself. So Thinking about jewelry, right? mostly traditionally we Have Sanjay Leela Bansali sets in those ad films women clad in, you know, Langa's and Sally's top-to-toe you know almost like jewelry and What we realize that the customers that we are catering to they're young they are cosmopolitan they Don't need occasion like wedding or childbirth only to flaunt their jewelry, right? So how can we and of course they're all tech savvy most of them are watching using smartwatches And how can we use that wrist also to for them to you know flaunt their style statement? And that's where this concept came out and that's why in the ad film also we showed a couple Again showing the power dynamics of today's couples where the woman was fit running she Very comfortably, you know finish the marathon and the husband was slightly unfit and she was motivating him And what's the end when he finishes the care the run?  This is our first marathon together. So talking about how the occasions also, right? Can be anything? It doesn't have to be big occasions only for a category like Judy and for this itself when we speak about only channel We went to movie theaters. We the TV campaign. We started with HD. We went to SD as well of course the challenge was also how to turn you know translate the Film into a static for print shopper outdoor Yes, right and also how to tell the story in the shorter edits of the digital Requirements, right? So these are some of the challenges as well when it comes to one campaign But so many formats that we need across channel Can I bring one on into this right now and you know so constraints very well put across over there? But budget also sometimes is a constraint So have you ever faced a situation where you've been forced to leave out a channel, which was you know Actually helping you tell your story and brand experience better. Okay? I've never come across a marketer who's told that I'll have something budget To be honest budget is always a constraint, right? But going back on the point Which even harsha mentioned for a brand like the space we're a digital first brand right and the audiences whom we gathered first or reached out to first where Audiences were digital savvy, right and therefore the need state for that audience is very very different and unique They're high risk takers for example once you start switching channels, right? In media you start seeing different personas and therefore is the brand Have and does it have the right cat category? Right catalog does it have the right stores? For example in this space does have the right designer to cater to those needs and at the end of it Are we communicating it in a manner which you know reaches them as well, right? It's probably the ads which we run on digital might not cater to the audiences who are on TV for example, right? You might have to customize them because the motivators their barriers are very very different from the other set of audiences That's very true. So also you might have a different product lined for different categories of The need state is very different. For example, just to give an example, right? Let's take Bombay if we go to Borewelli the audiences who are in Borewelli Romly Gujaratis Heavy heavily populated by Gujaratis and the need state from a design perspective, right? From materials colors finishes are very different from let's say, I'm doing which is just down the road Yeah, so therefore it's personalization at a micro market level and not even at a city level So then how does your brand say the consistent thing across all these different kinds of audiences? So what live space has done is from all our brand tracks, right? What's come out is that the largest, you know barrier for people to enter this category is the quality of material and quality So we have to stick with one message and that's something that we have stuck with and consistency has paid off for us Right actually for the last four years. We just invested in in a quality of material quality of design or quality of finish Because the space is doing the categorical creation job The space into the market when organized was about 2% market share today Organize is about 25% market share at 20 to 25% right? So that's really paid off for us and we as a result we have significant market share in the organized space An example of something that you might have had to do in terms of content for a different category of audiences Yeah, that's a challenge Yeah, let's say you run the campaign on say digital platforms. Let's say social meta Instagram and say YouTube right and then if you have to run a campaign on TV The audience sets are very different right and therefore I'm not sure if they resonate with the same comms Probably you might have to tweak your comms. The personality has to be different Cultural nuances are very different. There's a lot of differences. It's not something that we've been extremely successful at But I think there are some grants are done it beautifully I think we come from a very different perspective, right? Yes So as an agency down south there's been helping a lot of brands So tomorrow media has been there brand custody to help them do that I guess you're absolutely right right considering that there are so many different markets just outside and then each platform So differently each channel behaves so differently to find your audiences where they are is becoming increasingly challenging And I think that's typically where if you take for example, we work with two dating apps Both of them very very different one that has been wanting to kind of know Reach out to Women and one that's been wanting to reach out to men Right, and how we were able to kind of crack this is considering one has a very tier a approach What is it very tier B approach? So who do we think what is the brand aesthetic? What does the brand want to communicate? What is the how do we keep the messaging consistent across all of these channels have been a huge challenge Whereas for another brand it was a tier to approach by the tier one approach So I guess it is absolutely right in terms of trying to find that consumer at the right time the right place is becoming extremely difficult And even as platforms every platform We have different like YouTube whatever Yes, you know, I just want to ask you something Rahul you and I were talking earlier and you gave us a good example of one of those dating apps I hope I have all your attention here because we're talking about I've done some great work for Bumble where you know the campaign was about women make the first move So so women make the first move in a tier one may work. Does it work in tier two? So but another app called friend, okay You know very tier two focus that you know I've been a different set of audiences. I mean the aesthetic of brand is different That's very very different. The whole brand identity then doesn't or do you drop that channel? Do you drop the geography at all completely? Yeah, but the brand have to do that or how do you take it with the same essence of women make the first move? How do you take it to tier two? Did they take it? So basically so each brand has Their aesthetic and what they want to do and what they do not want to do as well, right? So I guess that's something that we come into kind of, you know, what are those channels that are actually relevant to a brand? It's not necessary that every brand to follow every channel for every campaign that they do. So there have been for example with Bumble we've also done a lot of outdoor ads I think after the campaign they followed up with the creators Which is funny to kind of put out boardings because it's a more urban tier one kind of Okay, just out of curiosity asking all of you and I know actually how will you would have helped brands do this? What would come first in your pick of you know, is it branded content? Is it channel driven content that you would take or data driven content? What would come up in your I would say data driven content makes a lot of sense and just adding to and it has some link to what he was also talking about It's a multi-channel Scenario and within the channel also You know the audience behavior is completely different and that is Powered a lot by the data that you get from, you know only only channel Sources the CRM etc that you get for example, we have a platform called with tech, right? And we've multiple times seen in campaigns that when a campaign is running and a certain product is or a communication is being communicated to a user What is being shown and why what because of which the user is actually going into the store? Say it's an e-commerce store. He ends up buying something else so there is a set communication or a You know brand push that is going but they end up buying something else and this is a correlation that you know Through data, you can figure out. Hey, you show this maybe this sells more And you know there, but then I would say the brand is actually missed a touch point there in translating what it stands for That's true. Yeah, but and hence brand specific Maybe just Yes It also depends on what's the brand objective here, right? Are we trying to? Introduce a change in consumer behavior or are we trying to fit in with whatever changes we can make and the brand identity, right? That is also a choice. We need to make that while Trying different channels and trying to be truly only channel. You can't value the essence of what your brand stands for What's the messaging and what the service or product stands for so it is a fine line and I think it's very important to stay true to your brand Plus 100 to that But give us an example Harshani. Can you think of something that you would have? Any brand that's done it successfully I think Swiggy as well as Zomato right when it comes to their brand identity, they are not diluting they have changed consumer behavior in the last few years, right? Of course Coveted help but before that also, I think it's beautifully done trying to Add a new layer to consumers lives, right? Which all of us as e-commerce or TTC brands are also trying to do so some of the for me Swiggy and Zomato are doing great across channels keeping their brand identity and Coming here Sneha about an example that you would like to give us So specifically to answer your question about data versus channel. I think it's a very hard pick because You need the data to find out who you're speaking to but you do need the channel as well, right? Like at the end of the day People come on to social because they want to relax Right if I'm also targeting brand messaging there, they're not there for that objective Right, so as a result of which channel is also very very important Yeah, so I don't think one can live without the other I think the channel Plus data is important To find out what are you going to tell your consumer, right? So and the data will help you tell who you're speaking to And what are their interests etc and also define your channel selection to a certain extent So doesn't brand take the backseat then If we are to play and engage on different channels, so it depends again on the objective which I said, right? So if we're talking about engagement, I think we have to be there and like keep the engagement as top priority So on social and if you look at our social strategy We don't put out brand messaging. We we keep it in the tone of social It's largely means and reels and Whatever works in the social space When we go to TV for example, it needs to be tailored to TV, right? Like the TV creatives or TV ads have a specific format and it needs to work in that format When we do digital for example, it needs to be far like you need to be fast quick and you know get your message out As soon as possible with the within six to ten seconds. So I think it needs to be both Because if if we didn't have the data, I wouldn't know who's watching TV and who's watching digital and accordingly Would be able to target right and I think the other thing is just starting towards me I said like the attention span is very varied across different boards I think I am let's say somebody's on instagram. They are actually bombarded with 20 branded things and 200 not branded And when let's say I am watching a cricket match I know there's a match and then there are two ads and then there's the match again So my receptiveness is very different It kind of then goes to the fact that how do I kind of get your attention in those 20 seconds that two second of her instagram post or a six-second reel Where do I kind of slot myself and that becomes I think the more profound challenge that after hey, I figured out these are 20 chances. I want to be here Now I don't know what's their attention span going to be Digital still gives you that a view through rate will give you Hey, these many people watched in 25 50 75 But let's say when you go to something like an outdoor Or you go to something like a theater Outdoor you'd say you have about what two seconds three seconds at best How do you kind of customize according to that and let's say if you go to a theater There's no meter. That's kind of measuring how many people saw what across the board so I think At times it ends up also at a lot of That cause if I were to save a lack of a better word That hey, you know what these folks are going to be here and let's take this call and kind of move on Tell me have you ever had to compromise then what the brand really stands for In that 20 seconds in that 10 seconds. Uh, not really actually I've actually always seen that and I take I can take an example of multiple brands out here But let's say something like a cred or a one-plus or a phone pay all these are the three brands that I've worked for So I think you've always wanted to deliver what the message was and what the brand readers are in those 20 seconds As you've kind of tried to always do that no matter what and I think that's one area Where I generally feel none of us are compromising on because You need the channel 100 percent. Yes. If you want to be there, there is no chance you're compromising It's actually the owners resides on you To figure out. Hey, how do I kind of fit in there? I think that's the challenge because otherwise saying the basic stuff and getting away with brand dilution Is the easiest way out Thanks. Thanks for that So, uh, I think he's actually back on the campaign objective kind of matters the most right a lot of times We kind of tell our partners. What is the best channel that they should adopt? Like a mini series of three episodes is very different from a reel that is 30 seconds, right? So while the reels are similar and you can keep watching as many as they can be the stickiness doesn't exist As opposed to a mini series of three episodes people are coming back They're kind of trying to get to know your product better. So the campaign objectives largely decides What can we do on each of these channels to you know, actually make it successful to be able to make a mark of some sort Uh, why don't I want to bring you in here because I know your category is one where customization of furniture and you know of the interior spaces becomes very critical to a customer What is your have you kind of used personalization Of furniture of living spaces, etc as a message if the brand is standing for that and How much have you got to do In this area in terms of meeting what a customer exactly wants and things and diluting what the brand actually stands for Is there an example that you want to share? Is there a story around this? So most of the comms as mentioned all years well, lina Has been on the primary category drivers, which is quality of material and design, right? But having said our back end is customized to a very very great extent, right? We have over a million permutations and combinations for the same kitchen Right, uh, that's because every customer is different every and the need state is different and as a result We have diversified our you know our segmented our business units as well We have a business unit which caters to the basic requirement of home materials, right? For example, someone buys a 2bhk. I just get my kitchen wardrobes A TV and a shoe rack, which is basic woodwork for me to move and fix furniture The kind of designer you need there is very different the kind of store you need. Oh, there is very different The kind of catalog you need there is very different Similarly, if someone is doing a full-move interior and there's many say about 80 lakhs on the same home The kind of designer again you need is very different. So we have personalized our entire supply side To cater to the customer's needs date, right? But at the top of the funnel we attract or rather bring in audiences with the same tenant, which is quality of material Which is quality of my so there you are maintaining an umbrella message and consistency in that Okay, another question to all of you and one or two answers are welcome Why is it important to be consistent? Why should the brand be consistent at all? Why don't I play across different channels as a product need? Yeah, so the best example is a brand is like a human being right and Say a brand behaves like a specific person today and behaves like a different person tomorrow. It's Kizafredic in nature It's not normal While as as brand custodians, right? It's important for us to create that consistency because For consumers brand is not important, right? That's the last thing on their mind, right? So how do you get the attention right being consistent over years? That's what good brands do right the same messaging probably narrated in a different story, right? And that's what brings consistency and memorability for consumers, right? So therefore you should be consistent You know, I was actually doing research at one point for an ATA brand and I realized that women Buy ATA at the drop of a hat and switch an ATA brand at the drop of a hat There's no love for the brand that you have been using for such a long time And my in my experience I think that brand Consistency or expression becomes almost second nature becomes hygiene after a certain point becomes comfort And there it becomes important to say I will choose because I know the rishority of whatever the brand stands for So you want to come in here One point that I wanted to add here was that at the end any category you go to there's a lot of clutter, right? There are so many brands The products can be similar in a lot of ways also And that's where the emotional essence comes into play, right for consumers to Relate to a specific brand Of course, I'm in a high value category. So People do spend a lot of time versus an ATA brand FMCG It will definitely be different But there also I see a lot of brands creating that emotional connect connect with customers And that's where the brand identity comes into play and there can be different aspects of it Whether it's emotion, whether it's environmental Related You know aspects that consumers in today's world want to associate with a brand that is doing something good or You know striking a chord with their In our self, right? So that is also very important to create That's the reason why we should kind of be consistent in our messaging because then the consumer can differentiate you in that clutter of You know all the similar kind of products in the market and we see it in some of the most loved brands I mean we give an example of swiggy and I'm so sorry that Zomato always comes in when we talk about swiggy But you know Indigo and such brands and they've done a lot in this category and unfortunately, fortunately Tanish has done so much in this category as well. But Sneha, you want to say something? Just recently I was reading We can debate about what makes great brands etc At the end of the day a brand is about what a consumer tells his or her friend in a closed room, right? So and the stronger a personality. So for example, you meet a strong personality It's it forms memory structures that you will talk about I think to me that's essentially why why it's important that you are that one personality that people like What I'm saying, right? So, uh It's it's as simple as that If if you think come all you will think of the girl that you've seen forever and ever So it is memory structures and some part of it is the comfort that you built And it's the fact that you know that this is what you're going to get out of the brand This is what you're going to get out of that brand. That's true. So, um, with the jeweler telling me about trust I think a lot of it is kind of then stemming from the kind of category that you are in also Let's say you were the jewelry category, you need to be super high on trust Uh, I think there are the categories where people are comfortable trying out new brands Like you mentioned Arta, but there are some places where you would never compromise on like your money, which is where the banking system So your industry as well, I mean for phone pay trust is a big one Exactly. So I think for a lot of I think that's true for most financial institutions that where I feel comfortable with Is where I kind of put my money out as well So I think but again that's stemming from the fact that hey, what is my involvement in the category? What is my involvement with the product? Uh, and that is where you Let's say the trust how okay are you in letting go of it or how okay are you in staying close to it is kind of coming in um any areas where you've kind of Translated that messaging of trust because your business would work on that I think trust is that underlying thing in every simple thing that you're doing for example Let's say even if you open up the home screen the first thing it tells you about is All the security measures that the app is taking up and it's just on your load screen So I think it starts from there and it literally goes every single point that you go afterwards So I think it's not a I generally feel it's not a marketing first initiative. It's actually a Product first initiative because I can say anything that I may want and then probably it's if the product is not as much It won't make a difference. So I think we are actually gift wrapping what everybody else is doing at the back end I think a whole economy has started on on the basis of trust, which is I think Rahul will be able to elaborate more is on the Influencer economy right that is on trust and that is obviously, you know earlier They were the big influencers and then there were micro influencers which have come up and micro influencers nothing But you and me kind of people who are just saying that you know this product works This brand works and this is an amazing product and that's how I so um the interesting that you bring this up And especially because you know you have snapchat as a platform that your Propagate as well Give us some examples of how a brand has been able to create meaningful engagement or meaningful communication or content On snapchat because that's not a very well used platform by indian brands. Yeah. So snap is also about We were talking about you know native advertising native when I say native that you know How do you natively? Naturally come and not be an ad ad person, right? Very intrusive not to be intrusive And snap beautifully does that right with its augmented reality, etc. And we it's also actually augmented reality is that You as a user are also a brand ambassador, right when a brand You know a sponsored lens, etc is happening You're putting your face on it and saying that hey, you know, this is the product that works So we for example, we did a large campaign for flipkart and they were promoting, you know products Faster delivery best prices, etc And I think they had alia part which was from a trust factor, you know a very large influencer And they were using the platform right and the platform what we did was we said that everyone can become And alia part was called flip girl right flip card flip girl right who is basically fast trustworthy, etc They said hey, every one can become a flip girl and we created this entire augmented reality Lens where when the user opened it they saw their face as the flip girl and they could share That entire engagement with their friends and he got like amazing We had almost 15 seconds to 20 seconds of Engagement on just that branded Piece of content right excellent and you see more and more brands doing this any of you on the panel and Rahul, have you done it for some brands? Absolutely, right? So I think instagram filters and snap filters are created But you know, we've been talking to them to try and help a film out But instagram filters we've done quite a few where we believe that one is to use Your set of influencers to send the messaging out right but does that drive organic adoption? If it does and there are people actually participating in the campaign to make it larger it is successful. So One of these let's say for example, what are the shows that we produced for z5, right? So it's called ahna bilanta, which is still one of the largest shows and the recourses to our hearts Of late. So when we started doing this We were like this is a show that everybody can watch right But how do you communicate this to everybody? You can't have a similar strategy for everybody, right? You have your push notifications you have your outdoor you have your newspaper ads and then there's a huge part of digital and what can be done around it So we started off by seeding a song into instagram Where there was a hookstep where you know these guys actually did and it got 15 000 organic reels that were produced using that Audio track right now that for us was a very strong Feedback that you know if you can drive organic adoption and if when you were seeding it, what was your strategy? I want you to share with our audiences. What did you do to start seeding that? Well for seeding, you know one basically we The actors themselves were big stars. So they started the trend and uh, then we have an army of influencers who work in twos and lifters, right? But you must have obviously looked at the personality of the show and chosen similar types of influences It was very important that the show had a certain persona, right? And we had to true we had to stay true to it So the kind of creators that we picked the kind of communication that we had them say when they were making reels To sample the show the kind of way they danced for a specific step. Everything was actually you know keeping in the actor actual brand person of the show Which is you know the whole personalization that we wanted this to be viewed a certain way So you mentioned an important point over here, and I think I don't touched upon it How much do we lose our brand descents when we are personalizing for audiences? And personalization could be across geography across target segments across, you know, different categories of buyers and things It's not necessary to lose your personality, right? Your brand has a certain tone of voice. It has a certain personality The mediums are different But the tone of voice stays the same, right? It could be from different content also. For example, advertising, right? A 20-seconder it's a certain type of content But your tone of voice is the same at the same time you work with an influencer your tone of voice is still the same Right, or you do long-form content probably a show a five series show your tone of voice again the same So that's what keeps the brand consistent So you feel personalization doesn't really then It's not as detrimental to a brand voice Personalization is important, but It's important, but having said that the tone of voice is the same. You're not losing out on anything And there's a good marketer at the end of that Varun because not in many brands are able to make it But it's really hard Tina, it's really hard If we if I I want to maintain my tone of voice, but I can't use the same creative in a Bangalore as well as a Bidai How do I maintain that Dynamism that the you know what our core of our brand stands for how do we do that in multiple markets is really hard And I don't think there's a silver bullet answer that absolutely Which is why we're on this panel discussing this Talking about personalization Also, um, we have to realize that when it comes to personalization You're not personalizing the brand for the customer. You're trying to personalize the product or the service, right? And that's where the tweak in communication comes and of course first party data helps over there What is the person browsing accordingly? What are the recommendations I give to them? What kind of emails I send to a cohort of customers who buy a category of products or A specific price range of products, right? So there are different means and ways of personalizing And you know sharing different kinds of messages to customers without diluting brand identity as well And I actually do believe that a brand is an amalgamation of a whole lot of things a whole lot of attributes And every touch point you may not be able to enliven every attribute So you've got to make a big based on certain factors that you're less suggesting Okay, I think we have about five seven minutes more. So I'm going to You know quickly ask y'all to just tell me if you were to take a leaf out of anyone else's book Any other brand which brand would you look to in terms of saying, okay? They've done it really well and I like the way this brand is consistently representing themselves And just a couple of names and maybe campaigns that our audiences can look through and then we'll open it up for questions This is wonderful brand. It's a fruit drink brand called innocent. It's based out of you. Yeah If you look at their communication, look at their packaging, look at their office Look at their value system. Look at the policy that they have for employees It's policy. Okay homework for all of us. Yeah Thanks, Varun. Two examples from me. I would love to have the kind of budgets budgets that Barbie had Oh, yes, of course. It was a marketing masterclass But really amazing job at closer home. I think whole truth foods. That's a really great job Like a consistent story across every touch point whether it's a bill whether it's packaging whether it's the social So these two are my favorite. Thank you And I have a story and anecdote on that because we are big lemonade and Two weeks ago when I was representing us somewhere else. They said, uh, you gotta change that pink lemonade I said, no, that's the color that's trending right now. What would I So that's anyway come with it I think one is a slightly vital example of some the way apples kind of communicated privacy to everyone I think we didn't know that was a problem until they started to say so and the other thing and I think that's again A more Indian sort of an example is I think hdfc bank. We don't see a lot of that communication coming out But I think when you hear hdfc, you know what it's going to do it for you and I think They've done a good job at it a great job Thank you. And I'm so You know happy to see that the brands that you're mentioning out here. It's very clear that they're successful because of doing what they've done consistently and well And they've transcended to across customer segments. It goes back to the consistency across every channel. Absolutely. Absolutely Yeah Rahul for me I am pretty much try past Ikea every day when I go to work right when you look at what Ikea does I mean, you know, you can buy it on their side, you know, pick it up from their store You don't get loyalty points So the whole way in which they've kind of brought in all of these channels together and then Them trying to also kind of go in sustainable I think you know the way they kind of catching up to trend because I think today it's important like we also have another company called the Indian Beaver Where we do men's clothing line where it's it's actually directly sourced from the beaver Right. So sustainability is not a fact. It's a trend and that's you know, the king of brands getting It's evolving over a period of time and the way Ikea has kind of done that and their communication messaging across I think it's really very very nice And while we're on Ikea, I want to take it to live space again because You mentioned to me recently you have a store in Singapore where you're a co-branded with Ikea How do you then bring out the live space brand when Ikea has this mammoth sitting there and you're not so difficult to Yeah, so in fact, it's the very first Co-branded store by Ikea anywhere in the world, right? And it's it's the need of the day, right? So Ikea is great in fix in you know in furniture, but they have a standard design But consumers needs states are changing and they want personalization They want different needs and that's the reason why they collaborated right and we have a very big proposition Obviously the might of Ikea's brand comes there and as a result We stick the catalog of Ikea, but we do heavy levels of personalization So you have live space Visibly present there. Yeah, absolutely. It's a co-branded. Yeah, you said yes So do you play customization there or you still play quality? There it's it's the market in Singapore slightly different and Therefore we actually pitch and nature of service also is more about personalization. So yeah, we pitch personalization So then you aren't customizing to that. Yeah Sure, but the but the needs states are very different. For example, we are also present in Saudi Arabia Each state in Saudi Arabia is very very different, right? The the level of premiumness is very very different And the and the platforms that they consume is also very very different and for example, google doesn't exist there Right snap is actually their primary platform They use snap for search or insta for search So so the platforms that you reach out to customers in different countries also vary And therefore what Sneha was saying is very tough because you've got to change at some point then You've got to allow a few things to happen Yes, actually you want to come in your favorites I Admire this brand called Patagon. You're also again sustainability. They had a campaign where they spoke about Don't buy this jacket because you know reuse what you have and then talking about how reusable materials Recycled materials have been used So and it was again across channels. So lovely what we're looking to it. Thank you Actually, yeah, I think for me from an omni channel perspective and a very mass brand has been dominant That's amazing, right? Yes. They are present, you know in stores. They have, you know An app they have a website. They are on npeb You know, some people would know and some won't that you could also order a domino's pizza through an Alexa app Right, which is voice There's consistency in the fact that they want to deliver And it is from their fact that anywhere Was one of their campaigns that you could order from anywhere and which is actually consistent with the omni channel Thank you for sharing that example and on that note. I just want to share the You know a fact that domino's is the only brand I hear on swiggy which is allowed to do its own delivery and doesn't share later with swiggy and You know, so I have to say the brand has then overpowered And made its presence felt so thanks for that example any questions from the audience I would love to yes, we have a couple of people there. So can someone give them a mic, please There's this sudden shift in messaging From being centered around small elite to now being changed into Users next the next half million users, right? So With with reference to this expanding Omni present channels that brands have started to use how What kind of content formats or what kind of strategies are we looking at to provide this Inclusive experience from for users who are now entering from said tier three tier four cities So I think it will go back to where we started, right? So if I have to talk about swiggy in specific, we are At around like 40% penetration in the big cities We are in maybe like the early Double digits in in smaller cities So honestly for us the wave of growth is coming from the smaller cities as a result of which it is important for us to be able to Be relevant to that market, right? So a couple of things change a couple of things don't what doesn't change is what our brand stands for What does swiggy bring to the table at the end of the day? We bring convenience to your life so that you can have a better life, right? So that's the consistent part of it and whatever we do no matter what the channel No matter what the messaging I think that part of it will be intrinsic to what we do In terms of I think where this will play out is in terms of the media selection In terms of like like I was talking about right like languages We will move from say for example speaking the social speak to being able to speak in malayalam or tamil or Whatever is the language that we want to you know or like be more Relevant to the DG that we're speaking to I think these are the two things that One thing like I said one thing will change and one thing won't But honestly, that's how we can grow Say that's a very valid point in terms of Localization of that content or making it more inclusive to tier three Have any of you are trying to look at AI and how that can create a touch point that or a moment of truth That's pervasive in a local language I know we did something for swiggy that for the homely campaign So yeah, we have done AI, but again, it was not tier three focus It was not tier three, it was last week tier one We do actually like a lot of our performance marketing for example if you are in a bilay or a Bhopal the kind of Items that you would see for my performance marketing is very different and it's actually tailored to what your tastes are Very nice. So honestly, I think there's no escaping it in AI is already And even ml right like if you open your app, what you see on swiggy will be very different Right now if we open the app here, thank you. We have another question. Yes. Yes My question is related to I mean directed to any of the panelists See we have spoken a lot about only mnc companies as such So uh here, uh, I'd like to know see how patanjali has Uh done Against uh piggies like, uh, hindu star newly lever proctor and gamble colgate and all that and uh, they have to use the celebrities also Baba randey himself has done a great job. He's the biggest celebrity for them. You can see that How This brand equity has been developed in the case any comments to be made on this I'll ask the panelists for So patanjali actually is a beautiful brand because of the consistency of the brand ambassador of the owner. It's a very ramdev He has a certain Personality he has certain attributes or attitudes and as a result He's entered categories also of a similar nature and attributes of the products are also of similar nature So there's significant consistency from his personality to his product range And yeah, that's the reason why you see his success there as well huge consistency and absolutely what he says is the products are allied to his way of life his belief And therefore they consumed also as natural progression. Please any others sentiments thoughts I think we're just having this conversation a little while ago in the Speaker's panel room as well, right? So when you have a person who has a personality that you know, you already You know believe in then selling the product becomes so much easier because the trust and the emotion that you get with it becomes pretty much, you know I think great example of content marketing. So every day your content marketing on a certain way of life And all the products are aligned with that Yes, sir, please come in The gentleman on the first yes, please go ahead there with the advent of a and ml No, obviously we have omni channel followed by all the brands and companies, but Considering few companies like, you know, free charge cred Or you know, milk basket those companies they they use only chat. I mean only one channel so With the with the a and ml in the coming years or in the future Do we see only few channels for marketing or omni channel? I'm not sure The others would use only one channel of communication The app itself would be an in-house channel. I mean with proprietary channel for them But there would be a good geomart for example, recently you could place orders through whatsapp So I think it is it is definitely inevitable. I think how people Place orders how they react. I am talking about actually customer care. Sorry Customer care channels So customer care at least our experience at live space has been that how fast we can respond to the customer At least to hear them out or her out, right? I think that's very important Why do people come to the customer care if there's a certain escalation if there's something not in line with what the experience was So we the way we see it is which channel you can hear them out and respond back to them immediately, right? So while AI and ml does the job of hearing them out, right? Okay, fine We have a decision tree matrix and okay your name your project name. What's your concern? Immediately after that it goes back to traditional channels at least in live space because you need a human being to understand What's happening on the project site? Right? AI can't do that Because there could be some escalation there and then we have the person reaching out to that person Because channel actually for that has been twitter, right? Like I remember when we were talking to etel. They were very very skeptical on coming on twitter at some point of time But eventually they had to because all the escalation and customer Graviances used to come on twitter, right? And twitter then later on developed chatbots, which are AI driven You know which brands could use and they could auto respond on customer grievances. So yeah, it's it's been a trend But to answer your question I think the brands will have to keep themselves open to listening to customers wherever a customer is Because and they'll have to consolidate that in some way whether it's through AI or you know anything else Do we have time for any more questions? No, right? Okay, so I'm so sorry, but we will have to close here You're free to meet our panelists offline. Thank you so much for your time and thank you panelists