forward to have this dialogue with the two of you on the topic of edible insects and the two cookbooks that you have been instrumental in preparing as part of Agriculture for Food Security 2030, AgriForce 2030 program. My name is Anneli Sundin, I work with communication and engagement in the program. These cookbooks are now available on our website eslu.se slash AgriForce and you can find them via the links below this video. As more and more people are becoming aware of today, insects can be very nutritious and can be a good replacement of animal protein such as beef and pork. This has major benefits for our climate if we are to reduce our meat intake. It can also have potential to combat food insecurity. For example, when crops fail in a year with a lot of drought, edible insects can become essential for alleviating hunger. Edible insects are common in many parts of Africa. However, today in many urban areas they are losing in popularity. While in other parts of the world, for example here where I am based in Europe, we can see that some edible insects are trending and laws and regulations are quickly trying to adapt to allow for the trading and processing and preparation of insects as food. However, back to Africa, you both set out on the quest of making the edible insect sector flourish in both Zimbabwe and the Democratic Republic of Congo, as well as beyond these two countries. As part of that quest, you have been together with brilliant chefs and researchers developing two cookbooks on edible insects. Before I start with my first question for you, could you please quickly introduce yourself? If we start with Lindley. My name is Lindley Chimona Carlton and I am an associate professor in rural development at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences. I am particularly interested in issues of food security and poverty alleviation and not least when it comes to gender equality within these areas. Thank you Lindley. Excellent. And then Robert in Zimbabwe. My name is Robert Musundire. I'm an associate professor of entomology at Chinois University of Technology. I'm interested in working on the utilization of edible insects as food and I've been working in the Agroforesale program since 2016 mainly to promote handling safety and marketing in Zimbabwe and the Democratic Republic of Congo. Thank you. Thank you very much. So, okay. My first questions is a little bit around the why. So, why is it that you came to this point to write these two cookbooks? And of course, you can tell us a little bit more about them. But what do you think that these cookbooks can contribute with, especially in terms of food insecurity? And I would like to start with Lindley if you think you can. So, when the issue of food security and the gender 2030 began to gain momentum, much of the discussions around animal source foods in relation to nutrition, in relation to climate change, but also in relation to stewardship started to take form. I found that there was one voice that was really missing and that was the voice of women. And in this collaborative project together with Robert, you know, what I found missing as a link was working with scientists from African institutions within the area of entomology or entomophagy and really trying to work together from Esselu's viewpoint of looking at issues around global development, but also sustainability. Thinking, how could we look into these issues together at the same time as bring these forgotten voices of women to the forefront? And so with Robert, the interest was Robert, can you assist and work more on these issues of understanding insects and in Zimbabwe, but also can we gather and benefit from the knowledge that you have from a scientific evidence-based viewpoint with respect to insects, to working in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where we are working with women that would like to develop enterprises around insects, but maybe don't really have this understanding of the science involved in terms of processing, but also preparation and thereby consumption and making sure that they're markets. So I went on to engage more with the women in the Democratic Republic of Congo and they were these fantastic women from Africa and these were a group of 30 women to begin with and many of them were actually not, they were literate, but maybe not as, you know, not at that level of how can we now look into this from a scientific basis, but they had so much knowledge in terms of what the insects were and how these particular insects featured in various recipes and dishes. At the same time, because we were in Kinshasa, they were very cognizant of the fact that the limitation in terms of consumption of insects was the price factor. They were getting increasingly expensive and rare and so how could we then not lose this wonderful knowledge basis that they had both in terms of experiential lessons on which ones are edible, which insects are edible, how do you collect them, how do you prepare them, how do you preserve them and when are they best consumed and how do you balance consumption in relation to availability and price factors. So for me, meeting Marianne and her colleagues and together with Beatrice, my colleague from Sweden, going through this participatory exploratory basis of so which insects exist here, can we do a market survey and I'm telling you these women went out and collected and brought back with them for a discussion, so many different types of insects that they could then tell the story of how it reminded them either of where they came from in the Democratic Republic of Congo, when they consumed them in terms of their childhood but also as adults or as mothers and how they were dreaming of doing more than just preparing for themselves but preparing for a bigger audience to serve the culture and the knowledge which they had. So this for me was the driving force, how do I get the knowledge of African women, their experiences, their expertise documented because given to many of the cookbooks around insects as you have said in the beginning, the interest from the Europeans and the other rich countries is interesting, yes, but how about documenting and sharing the expertise that has existed that these women have. So I'll let Robert in here, please, what's your comments and you know what led you to create these cookbooks Robert? Yeah well in the beginning we made observations in the traditional consumption practices of edible insects, mainly in Zimbabwe. We've been doing this work for quite some time since 2004 and when we when I met Linley in 2016 that was the turning point now because she has been interacting with women from the Democratic Republic of Congo. Now from our point we had observed that insects were just being cooked in the traditional manner with many more value addition and processing and in some instances insects such as termites, if you cook them the way they are, there were issues to do with digestion, some of them are not properly taken through the system. So Linley brought these exciting ideas about processing and adding value, that's when we started to have some thinking around what products we could make. So through that interaction we then realized that if we come up with innovation in the products it could even encourage new consumers to come in and then we could increase the number of people that are consuming insects as food. Thank you Robert, both of your stories here gave really a full picture of why you landed with these cookbooks but can you tell me a little bit about the actual process of writing these recipes together and how were different chefs involved, how were the researchers involved in the actual recipes and the photos that you've taken etc. Maybe Robert you could start here, any comments on that? All right, based on the documentation of the traditional practices I had a manuscript regarding the traditional preparation and consumption practices and based on some work that had been done in Congo by Linley, I approached a group of chefs at Chino University of Technology in the Department of Hospitality and Tourism. Then I flight this idea that we need innovative products based on these practices. So that's how it started. Together with Linley again we allowed them to innovate around those products and the result was so fantastic. Exciting, I can't wait to actually try and cook some here at home, I just need to get hold of the insects. Linley do you have any comments? Yeah, several. The process in Zimbabwe was much more academic and more exact science I would say and you will see the difference when you look at the two books, you pick up the cookbook from Zimbabwe, it is very precise with measurements, portion sizes and grams and those things. Whereas the process with the women, as I told you, these were a group of women coming from many different walks of socioeconomic class and so the whole thing was very organic. So firstly it was how do you explain the idea of documenting their wealth of information into a cookbook? So I was traveling from Dar es Salaam to Kinshasa and at the airport in Dar es Salaam I happened to come across a cookbook which was written by an African chef and he was trying to show the world the importance of African cuisine and what I liked is how there was lots of pictures, storytelling and then making these typical African dishes into this cookbook. So I bought that cookbook and brought it with me to the group of women together with my colleague Beatriz Kedembe and then I said to the women can you look at this cookbook and the dishes were actually from my first country Malawi and I said do you think we could do something similar with insects but from the DRC Congo and I will leave this book with you and you look at this book and see if you could do something similar but with insects. So the book not even at the end of the day had passed around several times and they were like yeah of course we can do this yeah I already know what I can do with my you know I can contribute with these dishes and I said excellent so we left them to work on the dishes that they would like to prepare and then using that cookbook as an inspiration we scientists came back to Sweden and I've forgotten how many months it took and I think I shared with you Robert if you remember I said Robert look at what the women have come up with they sent me a document which you know they had their recipes and then you know I said this is excellent and in the process they said you know we could actually open a restaurant in Kisjasa together as women and I said really yes we're going to ask the mayor of Kisjasa if he can give us you know some space in the city where we can have an insect restaurant you know and that restaurant is going to be called the Mikes set you know insect delicacies yeah like the book so that's actually the name of the restaurant in Kisjasa and then they they took it once they put it on the set but we also need endorsement because if we just do it and it's just us women and nobody knows about this they may people may not really be convinced so we're going to look for the top chef in Kisjasa and ask him to you know put some recipes uh insect recipes in the cookbook and so that's um the gentleman that you see in the cookbook who is one of the top chefs in Kisjasa that made those insect recipes so the thing just organically grew and and they you know took it up themselves and and made it what it is and Robert was always in the background because I was like Robert I just need to check are these insects edible insects or could they be causing some allergies and there Robert was really good they even sent you some samples didn't we Robert yes yeah yes excellent what a story I really like this story and it feels at some point maybe you should send one of the cookbooks to this uh chef that wrote that book about the Malavian recipes yes as a thank you yeah no it is part of there yeah no his name is just in Kamanga and I um yeah no the book is is really picturesque and very nice nice uh Robert this makes me think do you want to say anything about any of the there were several spin-off effects in Zimbabwe uh from the project to do with the cookbook as well maybe is there something that you would like to tell us that's a spin-off effect yeah and uh under the ad for say 2019 the one that we have been working in 2019 one of the objectives was to promote improved households uh insect consumptions as part of their diet so we realized a yes there are some traditional insect consumers but they were those that were willing to consume insects but in the form that they were so again based on experiences from the first phase that Linley was working on we then uh deliberately decided to actually innovate in terms of improving processing and adding value to these uh insects this was a spin-off from uh the the project from the agriphosate 23rd project because uh from the marketing the handling part the story had to go all the way to the table where these products then had to appear well and test well to the consumers so that's a direct spin-off from the agriphosate 23rd project excellent um thank you very much uh I would like to just uh quickly come back to uh to focus a little bit on on the topic of gender and women uh Linleon and I'm turning to you with uh with this cookbook made in DRC which was entirely made by by AFAC the this women organization how do you see the role of women chefs and women in food systems in Africa especially working with these kind of alternative food protein sources why was it so important to include these women chefs in the process of creating this cookbook so I think just the something which struck me when you asked me the question you said women chefs these women were actually not they're not chefs in in the sense of the definition but when you say women chefs they are they are chefs in fact they're really experienced and I think when we started when I when I introduced the idea to them the idea wasn't to work with insects I think they had grander ideas of what to do but then we said you know the insects and then said oh yeah we have mikokolo and we have mingolo and we have and suddenly you know their vocabulary just grew and what what was most striking and Robert can attest to this is when we started off to work with them in the DRC they thought very local oh this is for Congo and then we said actually no you're also going to we're going to have an exchange visit to Zimbabwe because we wanted to cross-fertilize you know agriforesees about you know learning by doing but it's also about you know cross-fertilization of knowledge absolutely and then we said no you're actually going to also go to Zimbabwe and that brought in a certain sense of excitement and Robert was there to receive them I can't remember now did you go to DRC first so did they come first we did first okay so Robert traveled to DRC and met them so they could also see the environment where these insects as I said I needed Robert's expertise you know as an entomologist and then they traveled to Zimbabwe and they were just wowed but those visits I think did not really speak to this you know women food and knowledge you know food cuisine preparation processing and expertise what really did it for them was now when we said okay so we have the cookbook Zimbabwe is also going to produce a cookbook but we have this conference in Zimbabwe and we want you affect to come and serve a repertoire of insect dishes at this conference and there are three I think there are three recipes in the cookbook that are directly taken from the conference nice and when they did the cooking these women led by Marianne and Karin and I can't remember the other lady there were three or four of them I people were in awe of these dishes you know this knowledge this expertise that women have in cookery in preparation in understanding the combination of different you know ingredients to achieve a certain taste that's to the mouth or to the palate of certain individuals whether it's male or female or young old people who've never tasted something before and this is just a novel food that they're tasting for the first time I think at this conference I think these women were just I think they felt like they had grown if not yeah you know five inches taller they got this international exposure which women often do not get exactly you know and then they were even interviewed I think it was by BBC if I'm not mistaken yeah you know it's like the whole world from looking at a foodie book you know a recipe book to now making your own recipes having your own cookbook and then cooking for a whole international conference how many people were there Robert between 250 to 300 that's right 250 yeah from I don't know how many countries and they made this you know this wonderful yeah buffet for everybody yes so I've heard about that in terms of gender empowerment yeah in terms of you know gender equality empowerment and this affirmation you know I think these women were affirmed their knowledge their expertise was affirmed thank you Lindy it's so nice to hear about this and I will I have a couple of more questions before we start to wrap up a little bit about this hype around insects on a global level if we look at food systems on a global scale it's rather recently started to gain this attention as an alternative protein source how do you see the potential of these cookbooks actually and the recipe is what is the potential outside the African continent what do you think could we could we start selling the book or giving away the book here in Sweden for example perhaps we can start with Robert this time okay thank you let me start by saying before we go outside Africa of course we are still here the recipes that we have which I think are very fantastic they are still very relevant here for our for the local population but most importantly we have Africa also depends a lot on tourism we have a lot of tourists from across the globe from across the globe America Europe and so far so we are saying these recipes can start from here and when tourists come visit they are also already offered these recipes at home then we hope as they go back to their countries they will go with these recipes and already I'm happy to say that there is a drive towards export of edible insects from Africa to different destinations of the world for example from the DRC Congo there's a significant amount of exports of different whems that are being exported to Belgium that's an example the Mopane Whem a delicacy of southern Africa it is even being traded on Amazon in Canada they are even a united kingdom these insects are finding themselves to these destinations and they can be followed by these recipe books and I'm quite excited this is the direction and we hope these can be then served as delicate dishes abroad I can't wait I really look forward to that Lily do you have any quick comments on that yeah I fully agree with Robert that you know even in the African continent and context we do need these cookbooks and the beauty of these two cookbooks is that one is written in English and one is written in French that's right so they do serve you know even the in terms of the lingua franca of the anglophone and the francophone countries I can see that the book while written you know in Zimbabwe can serve a very wide geographical location in Africa and then the French one while written from you know DRC can serve all the way to the other francophone countries in West Africa and in North Africa and usually this is not what happens it's either just written in one language but not in the other so they're two very unique approaches and then the fact that the two different languages means that they can be you know really used in a wide geographical context within the African continent but even outside of the continent and then I just want to say that you know there are people now who are saying why do we only have to wait for these insects when they're in season in Africa they actually ask us say you scientists can you not do anything about it and they're right so I think Robert has a lot of work cut out for him together with so many others because people would like to see the farming or the rearing of these insects so that they are more readily available and perhaps this could be one way of addressing the sustainability issue but also this stewardship because people have noticed that there is a shortage of these insects in terms of availability and that's why the price is so high and in urban areas I don't think it's that people don't want to eat it but the minute they move from the rural areas and they come to the urban areas there's studies that show that you know the prices are five sometimes even 10 times higher it's not just the protein aspect of it there's the cultural preference and then there is you know the the knowledge and the sustainability issues as well yeah this actually now you were answering my my my last question I was wondering exactly this what about the how do you see the development of edible insects as a protein but working in different types of social cultural context how would they work in rural areas versus urban areas what is the potential there in Africa Robert do you have any more additional comments to that just to add a little bit on what Lindy has already said I just want to say I can envisage a situation where this is going to expand but this should be this is going to be on the backdrop of more product innovation I hope we are going to make more cookbooks going into the future and the supply side is Lindy already said needs to be addressed through stewardship, conservation, insect farming, marketing also needs to be strengthened so that people are made more aware of these products on the market and issues to do with food safety and trekking I think consumers are quite concerned and they will be interested in getting these things to be sorted out before they can be widespread consumption. Very good and just to add on I think what Robert in the in the new years that we've been collaborating there is no shortage of interest from the public in fact what we are seeing is that we are in short supply to support or to facilitate individuals that are interested in these in issues around both insect production but also in terms of processing and marketing and adding value so the knowledge which Robert and colleagues at Chinoi University have put into this in a textbook in a very systematic you know methodical way I think we need more of those and in order to to address and target a much wider audience that is interested in meeting these products because the way that they have been you know put into cookies Robert and into samosas and let's not forget hamburger type you know there is so much scope for developing this within the African context and I think we've just you know been scratching the tip of the icebergs so I'm very excited about that but also the breeding aspects Robert you might want to add something there. Oh yeah the the breeding aspect is there anything you want to say Robert? Yes there's there's a lot of research going on on different species but I must say the most tested insects and the widely consumed one there are still a lot of challenges and breakthroughs that are needed I can cite the Mopaneum for example this is an area that we need to continue working on so that we can make sure that we can breed these in large quantities that can sustain the market. So there is more work to be done that is it's good but I think we had there were lots of positive notes here on the potential of edible insects as food also in terms of combating food insecurity and hunger and reaching SDG too I think this is really important what you have been working on and what you're still working on and these two cookbooks is a very very valuable addition in the process. Before we conclude I would just like to ask one fun question please tell me which one is your favorite recipe from these books one of them. Lindy please start. Wow maybe there are many there are many but I just keep remembering and I know that Robert knows this when we were in Zimbabwe at the conference and they had it was like a pilau rice or jollof rice with termites in it together with mushrooms termites are my favorite insect and of course also the green elegant grasshopper but they had made this wonderful it's in the cookbook it is this big lovely you know rice pilau or jollof rice with termites and mushrooms and it's my favorite and then there's so many then there was of course the the green leafy vegetables also and then yeah there are so many we have to go and Robert I would like to say try as many as possible yeah yeah good tip and Robert which one is your favorite. Thank you definitely the edible stink bug nuggets these are quite wonderful the process involves kind of extracting the oil or fed from the insects and then blending with flour so the filling in the mouth is so rich I can't describe it it's super fantastic excellent right yeah yeah I really I can't remember which one there was but when I I was in Zimbabwe and I tasted I got to taste many different ones I really like the cookies they were so delicious there were several cookies there I can't remember which insect they contain but I remember they were really yummy thank you thank you so much both of you for taking your time and I can't wait to post this video and share it with the world as well as the these two beautiful cookbooks thank you very much I think we'll conclude here thank you and watch this space Robert and I are not going away this is just a journey and watch this space thank you