Great, well welcome everybody as you may know Michael's mother died and he is on on his way to that service the Today we're going to be mostly focused on housing and eviction issues and I welcome everybody It's good to have you. We will have Becca joining us shortly And Josh if you could join us, we're gonna start with just an update on yesterday's executive order and to understand from our commissioner of Housing and Community development whether there is any implication in that And anything we should understand or any help he needs from alleges in any kind of legislative action Yes, thank you, this is Josh Hanford here commissioner housing community development. I also Coordinated with the commissioner of travel and tourism last night Since much of this latest addendum to the executive order Deals with lodging properties vacation rentals and so forth To understand from her perspective You know, what's going on and what the ramifications are here? What I can't tell you is that all of these properties lodging Airbnb Have if they're housing essential workers Anyone involved in the response? They are open and available to provide that lodging in fact We daily receive inquiries about I'm in this situation and Can I continue to extend my Airbnb rental or I'm looking to I'm in the middle of leases my lease expires You know the end of this month, you know such as today and will I be allowed to transfer to another property to continue? You know the answer to all those is yes As long as they're not just here for some sort of vacationing purposes That's essentially what has been shut off And the online, you know short-term rental sites have recently put up Info right on the the registration pages on their websites, you know stating that they're not taking reservations for anything other than Essential workers related to the the COVID response And some of these properties Lodging properties hotels motels have been critical to this response their housing folks that have been transferred from homeless shelters or other vulnerable populations In coordination with the state so I'm not sure if you have specific questions You know there has been some recent sort of and I don't want to say enforcement, but a check to see how Properties are complying with this this order by the state police and others and they've found You know decent compliance, but there's more education that's needed and suspect as people Understand what's going on here and the needs for these properties to only be available for essential workers folks that have come to our area to help with the situation and for folks that need to be You know self-isolate You know removed sort of from their regular activities that that's where these lodging properties are to be used and not for Vacation rentals so Something had come up yesterday evidently there are some landlords who have been moving to evict essential workers nurses or doctors that they're concerned about spread of the disease In their properties. Are you identifying lodging facilities close to places where essential workers are? Traveling essential workers. We're really talking about so that people will Or you know, how do we do do you need anything from us or can you manage all this pretty much on? On your own at the moment or I I guess that's where the some of the concern had been raised You know, I have not heard that exact experience expressed to us that would be highly illegal And evictions aren't happening at this point actual removal from properties by the courts so We've responded to a few situations where a mobile home park owner is concerned about a wholesale lack of rent payments Least lot payments from all of their residents and how they're supposed to respond to that since they you know still need to Provide services, you know water sewer, etc. And you know some Sort of frustration on their part that you know, what could they do could they put a chain across their entrance and block people since no one's paying him and you know, we've had our some legal counsel, you know involved in that and Suggest that you absolutely cannot do that and you know, I think it's more of landlords expressing frustration that Even as they hear about pending, you know eviction moratorium orders and whatnot that you know They're feeling that if people have any ability to pay they should You know, there is Increased workers on unemployment insurance, you know coming there is checks from the federal government coming and that You know shelter and food are among some of the first things that folks should use their limited resources to provide and app any sort of suggestion that Those don't people don't need to pay even if they can is of great concern to them. It'd be like, you know telling grocery stores Yes, they open and people can take food, but they don't have to pay they're they're concerned about that sort of message and Greater impact that that has on the whole housing industry if there's a wholesale Stop payment from folks but We have not Heard landlords suggesting they're gonna kick people out because they might be You know, okay, the virus that that would be illegal That was a concern that had come up with traveling nurses So I'm glad you haven't and I know you testified I believe you testified in the house on the bill that we're about to discuss with David So if you know the house is not the house has not had me in to testify Are you wanting to testify on that when it comes to us? Yeah, okay, right Perfect, I testified briefly last week and followed up. I know Senator Sorokin's, you know dealing with some You know challenging times right now himself I did send he asked me for a follow-up of sort of a summary since my testimony In your committee last week was at the very end of a long group of folks testifying It to follow up with the summary and I did send him that you know with several points that You know, we would like to make about that the challenges of a whole sale moratorium on evictions and foreclosures and I did send him that Great, we will we will Way in with that as we go through this because I I think Anyway, we're about to take that up. So we'll so anything committee anybody have a any fallout on the executive order yesterday For the commissioner and that is of people who have had their stays at Hotels and short-term rentals Terminated have there been any in effect results of adding to the homeless population by virtue of that Any reports of that? Senator, I'm not aware of that. We dealt with two situations of short-term rentals needing to be extended yesterday for for folks that you know, they were here under Difference they weren't here just vacationing but they were in a short-term rental and They needed to continue to stay, you know One case someone was involved in some medical procedures here in Vermont unrelated to COVID-19 They were you know in a compromised situation and could not go back to their home state And we were able to provide that guidance that they they had another Short-term rental that was available to them right in the community They were staying in and gave them guidance that yes They could continue to stay that was not in violation of the order and so, you know We've dealt with various situations like that, but have not heard of anyone that said they couldn't find New accommodations that met their need and they were being you know, essentially casted up the homeless population We have not heard that So Josh Just to follow up on that if we hear anything else that crops up we should be in touch with you I assume Yes, they can they can Come through me they can come through it's better to come through that the agency's general COVID email and then we divide those up by you know industry and sector You know Sean Gilpin Fields a lot of these I feel some of these if they have they need some sort of legal sort of Not advice or opinion in the legal way, but there's some tricky circumstances The agency general counsel responds. It's pretty much All hands-on deck Response to all the emails and phone calls that come into our agency. Okay, great Do you have as far as response when a person Goes into your email line with a question say I'm out of housing how quickly are you able to get a response back? Is there any kind of a standard that you set? Um, we're trying to get back to everyone within 24 hours You know that that some of these housing situations where you know, they're they're really in a Situation where they need a response soon, you know, there were two that came in last night and they've already been dealt with by this morning Also, you know, some of these get risen rise right up to A commissioner shirling Mike shirling public safety Because there if there's any sort of complaints about, you know, someone will be you know, it's being threatened with eviction or not being allowed to stay two of these cases where we're actually from The public safety Sort of avenue and kick to us that we were able to to deal with immediately You know, the majority of our inquiries are related to businesses Trying to understand if they meet the definition of essential And looking for further guidance about their operations And you know, and there's thousands of those and so those are the ones that are taking longer than, you know 24 hours to respond to Great. Thank you Quick clarification. So Josh for RV park owners if they are Adding to the housing for COVID related Tenants then they can have their parks open, but if they are not they're not essential businesses Is that so you are hundred percent correct? And that's what's tricky here is people, you know, if folks are trying to open up their, you know Seasonal RV parks or other, you know, seasonal lodging, you know on the lakes or whatnot and they're saying they're doing it for These sort of workers or essential sort of services now, you know That becomes a challenge to literally police if people are going to violate that but there are Sort of You know random checks going on In coordination with public safety to verify that that's what is happening Thanks. So yeah, cuz Great. Thank you, Josh More to follow on the house bill, but we're gonna begin our work on that with David. I think right now if that's okay Thanks. Thanks, Josh. You're welcome. Thank you. Yep Thanks for continuing your important work under these circumstances as well Back at you David hello, David Hall. It's good to see you We have the house as we all know is working has been working and they're they meet tomorrow They have been working on this big bill that has a lot of in it, but for us on On Draft point eight point one. Is that what we're looking at, David? Yes Would you be kind enough to walk us through it? The plan at the moment is to have them Pass this and get this to us and ASAP and that we would then be adding things Like commercial rental issues and issues. They haven't been able to take up necessarily or that aren't in their jurisdiction But that are ours. So our hope today is to begin to understand it and to hear from the various Stakeholders who we've heard from a bit already but So that we can be ready to rock and roll when the bill comes to us and to be thinking about what we want to be adding to it So do you buy back up welcome to back up Yeah So David, how would you like us to proceed? Can you hear me? Okay? Yeah, okay. I can't see I can't see you anymore because somehow the Well, we have the bill up. Oh, I am sharing my screen. Are you able to see the language? Yes, and the and the bill is also on if you have another I guess right if people didn't print it out That's a challenge If I share my screen, I hope you can see it and it'll allow me to scroll through it. Yeah And this is a document that is earlier today Should have yesterday evening eight point one eight point one Okay, so to the extent we have a record I'm David Hall legislative council staff housing and other issues so as Senator Clarkson mentioned This is a bill that the House General Committee has been working on it really has two parts to it the first Six sections are all Damien's stuff for leave and UI and other such things so I'm of no help to you there and if you have questions on those parts, you'll have to ask him Right and my understanding is much of it now given the federal action may be moved So that could be the case. I don't actually know yeah, and so we're going to be starting I believe on page seven with section seven That is correct. So if you are on page seven of 16 You'll see here section seven So right now this bill has a live Appropriation it's a placeholder amount of five million dollars from the general fund to DCF to provide emergency housing related assistance pursuant to section eight I've said a number of times before You know, this is sort of the starting number I have no idea what the number is I don't know if it goes in this bill or in a budget bill But right now seven and eight are tied together seven being the money eight being services Got it In your will chat about this as we proceed, but in your first filtering through an analysis of what's available in the federal stimulus Package for the federal relief package. I I guess one of our questions will be Is money like this available for these purposes in that bill? So that's a question out there as we go through Well, let me enter just a second with a question regarding the technology is this bill or the version of it Is it up on the committee's website? So it's a public Yes, I look today and I couldn't find it. Maybe I missed it. No, I actually sent it to you all into faith But generally I wait until the direction of a member to have it posted on the website Now Here and being displayed in the world. It's a public document and it's okay to post it So now I think it'd be posted Generally, we don't post things until we take them up. So we're gonna post it now I hope and it is being taken up and It's on the screen This is Denise Sometimes you have to close down That particular site then I'll put it back up for the most recent postings to pop up Okay Okay Okay, so the services in section eight these are based basically exclusively on the types of services that are being provided currently under the hot programs so You know, I pulled all these from reports and information About what they do now and that's that's the basis of the language. So you'll see in subsection a here DCS in coordination with DHCD and VHCB Other appropriate partners as necessary shall adopt policies and procedures to administer funding for housing related emergency relief That is specifically necessitated by the spread of COVID-19 That includes Housing search and placement housing stability case management landlord tenant mediation follow-up and supportive services to maintain housing Financial assistance for security deposits and rental payments rental arrears short-term rental assistance and the purchase or lease of existing housing units for purposes of isolation or quarantine related to COVID-19 Under BDCF shall develop a process for outreach to community partners landlord tenants to develop an expedited application process for emergency relief Three develop criteria for prioritizing emergency funding based on the income of applicants projected duration severity of the statewide need for assistance and other relevant factors Under C DCF shall maintain adequate records and data concerning funding It provides pursuant to the section and make that of information available to the general assembly And under DDCF and DHCD shall provide Information technical assistance and necessary guidance to homeless shelters community housing partners and landlord and tenant Associations concerning the resources and requirements of this act as well as relevant existing resources so The let me let me finish by saying this subsection eat is All policy all the time. Who does it what they do time frame data reporting? Amount of money for what purpose and the amount of money total are all obviously purely polydisk policy decisions for you Thank you And any questions on this section? Maybe we just go all the way through and then come back unless we have specific questions committed. Do we have any section Sorry, who who's speaking? I think that was Michael Michael is that you? It was I'm signing off Sorry, I think he signed off Allison. Okay He I know he was gonna listen as he drove so Anyway, any any questions so far? Okay, David. Why don't you keep going? Sure. I'm gonna skip. Well, let me just quickly tell you that the way that this draft has developed is it started in 1.1 With some placeholder pieces about landlord tenant utilities and mortgages creating moratoria for those three particular purposes evictions foreclosures utility shutoffs So Subsequent to that the draft is developed more fully and I'm gonna skip ahead to what is the new section 9 about current and pending and future actions for checkments and foreclosures right now Up in the air as far as I know whether People are going to pursue a moratorium on utility Shutoffs my understanding is that the public utilities Commission has already done that by emergency rule, right? But you know whether you wanted something like that in this bill up to you so far. I've not heard any testimony on that issue So June didn't testify in-house Not that I heard Okay So I'm gonna move ahead to the bottom of page 10 and This is language based on an original Vermont legal aid proposal. That's why it's flagged as such but they have been working cooperatively with Angela and others in the community to come up with consensus language and I Think it's fair to say 99% of this is agreed upon. There's just one outstanding piece on Sort of emergency relief that I'd like to talk about at the end Yeah, but if I can proceed with this In section 9 at its highest level what section 9 does is Create or define what we consider to be an emergency period and then it says What happens during that emergency period with respect to Ejectment actions also known as evictions and foreclosures So let me stress that right now this draft does include both evictions and foreclosure actions And while the language concerning ejectments landlord-tenant law is Consensus legal aid apartment owners others The language concerning foreclosures is not And in fact, I think you've heard testimony from from chris dealia and from vhf a That right now they do not support the statutory moratorium on foreclosure proceedings Everybody clear on that? Yeah, so The new section 9 Still Has foreclosures in it. Yes And when you sam okay, so Okay, right Go for Big picture. You see what? The subject matters uh that are addressed here another big picture issue sort of what is the construct And essentially this wants to deal during the emergency period With what happens to actions that are already pending And what happens with actions that would be new And so it the structure is to kind of work through all of those Permutations in the context of ejectments and foreclosures So you'll see on page 11 of 16 and the definitions Right now the emergency period is defined as The period beginning with the governor's declaration of the state of emergency on march 13th arising from covet 19 And ending 30 days after the governor terminates the state of emergency by declaration So A couple of things to unpack there as we are defining it This emergency period Has to begin and end With the declaration it's already begun, but the governor will actually have to End the state of emergency by declaration to sort of turn off this act And then that emergency period would extend for another 30 days Beyond that declaration um One more definition of foreclosure it means a foreclosure action brought under 12 vsh after 172 against a dwelling house is defined in 12 That's just to make sure we're talking about a residential property So I guess that's the third thing I want to point out Big picture wise right now There is an open question about commercial leases And um, whatever you decide either way whether you want to address them or not I think you need to say that clearly I would agree and I think that the house is going to be looking to us to address the commercial aspect of Of this area Okay So let me just sort of Frame that for you We have nine vsa chapter 137 residential rental agreements that set sort of the minimum statutory standards for landlord tenant relationships in the context of a lease agreement And um for the most part those cannot be waived. They provide protections and processes for both landlord and tenant From the origination of a tendency through its termination and injection or otherwise As you probably are well aware that's quite prescriptive lots of rules in there governing both landlords and tenants We do not have a comparable chapter in law That governs commercial leases in that way Um commercial leases are Private agreements. They are usually more complicated a lot more money involved They are resolved first through negotiation and then through Mediation or court process usually The the one piece we do have In statute the governs all property matters as far as retaking possession is this ejectement chapter So that does apply But that's really the court procedure. That's not You know, it's not it's not the process leading up to the court And that is all that is all governed commercially by contract. Yes. Yes There are some states that do have more prescription around commercial leases. We are not one of them So here in duties two important things This section does not relieve a tenant of the obligation to pay rent Under chapter 137 or And this section does not relieve a borrower Under a residential loan agreement of the obligation to make timely payments Pursuant to the terms of the loan agreement Right. Um, that is written intentionally that way pursuant to the terms of the loan agreement because it is possible under either Some provisions in the federal actions that have happened or just by private arrangement that The terms of loan agreements may change May change permanently may change temporarily. So to the extent they do It would still govern Any questions there Oh, see subsection c at the bottom page 11 Would govern pending foreclosure and ejection actions. So these are actions that have already been filed Under one upon the effective date of the act all pending actions for ejectment Under a 12 vs h after 169 actions for foreclosure under 12 vs h chapter 172 And outstanding orders in those actions are stayed until the end of the emergency period and two of course Sorry, may I just ask a question here? So here we you know, we have two different sort of So the definition of the emergency period includes the 30 days afterwards. That's correct. Right. Got it. Okay. Thanks So under two a court before which any one of these matters would be pending shall issue necessary orders and provide notice to the parties of the stay Not later than five days after the effective date of this act So basically if this passes then courts will Within five days take whatever action they need to hit pause on these pending actions Presuming the courts can deal with the load that they will be given at that moment sure You know, they could just adopt an across the board order that says On pause until the end of the emergency period so rather than having to dispose of the ejection individually, right? Under D new foreclosure and ejectment actions So during the emergency period a landlord may commence an ejection action pursuant to chapter 137 and chapter 169 And a residential mortgage lender may commence the foreclosure action pursuant to 12 vs h chapter 172 subject to the following So under one here The plaintiff may commence the action only by filing with the civil division of the superior court not by service Under two the court shall stay the action as of the date of filing until the end of the emergency period Three the plaintiff shall not attempt to serve and a sheriff or constable shall not serve any civil process And for the deadline for completing service of process under rule 60 Um, excuse me under rule three will be 60 days after the emergency period ends So these are new actions there's a lot going on there. Let me tell you in plain english, okay What this means What this means is that you can Initiate an action for ejectment or foreclosure. Okay, but to do that you have to go to court You have to file it with a court. You can't just send the papers to the defendant You have to actually do a court filing as soon as it comes in The court will stay the action There will not be service of process during this period And then once the emergency period ends The normal 60 day period for completing service of process of an action Will start as of the day the emergency period ends. Okay, so we are literally just we're saying while you may be able to start an action It will be paused until the end of the emergency period until and that includes again the 30 days after the emergency orders That's correct So it it it's sort of similar to judge tore's Order yesterday that ends up almost being the equivalent of 90 days Well, so the 90 days would be The end of the service period. So don't get confused by them You have the emergency period as we've defined it That's the state of emergency declaration and then 30 days after once that Period ends Consistent with the current court rule you have 60 days to complete your service of process So that's what we have going on in d4 So question for on on line nine Not it just Help me understand and not by service is that the sheriffs and the and the rits of possession is that It's a great question. So there's two ways you can start a civil action. You can either go to the court and give them your complaint and Everything else that goes along with that filing And then after you file with the court, you have 60 days to complete your service on the defendant You have to get them on complete service You have 60 days after you file with the court to complete service on the defendant That's one way to start a court case The other way is that you can just send The defendant all of the stuff the complaint and everything else by mail or by sheriff or In compliance with the rule, but you don't start by going to the court You start by mailing it to the defendant saying you are being sued in a civil action So this says That second option is not available to you during the emergency period Initiate an action by filing it with the court. Got it. Thank you that was For those of us not steeped in this area of the law That was very helpful Let me assure you that I am not steeped in this area of the law And that I have relied heavily on gene and wendy and angela and my judiciary compatriots brin and eric and I think I'm getting it right, but I you know, I'm always welcome to people. Tell me I'm getting it wrong Well, and happily we will hear from them in a moment Excellent committee any other questions on this new section Okay, keep going okay So subsection e at the bottom of 12 We are now going to address rids of possession that have not yet been issued. Okay So there are a couple of different circumstances in which under our statute After the court decides who's entitled to possession of the property They will issue this writ which basically is the legal mechanism by which A owner is restored to possession of the property legal possession of the property whether it's by An ejection action or a foreclosure action but We're dealing in subsection e with a scenario where the court has basically reached its decision But that writ has not yet been issued by the court And so we're going to hit pause on the issuance as well So under e during the emergency period a court shall not issue a writ of possession Three different circumstances one in an ejection action Pursuant to 12 vsa 48 53 a h because a tenant failed to pay rent into court Or b pursuant to 12 vsa 48 54 If the court has entered judgment in favor of the plaintiff but did not issue a writ of possession with a judgment Let me stop there say it back to you in plain English If we're in an ejection action the court has decided that you will be ejected But has not yet issued the writ of possession giving the landlord the legal right to retake possession of that property This act will hit pause on the issuance of that writ Same thing in two and in three These are both in the context of foreclosure actions And they both deal with the period of redemption Which is how long a person has To pay back the owed money and plus court costs and fees and filings and other things To quote unquote redeem the property to avoid foreclosure And if they fail to do that in the redemption period then a court would issue a writ of possession So Sorry, may I just ask in in two so we shift from rent from a rental scene to an ownership scene? Yeah Okay, that's right. That's right. So one deals with evictions and two deals with foreclosures Right got it. So here we're moving into mortgages and and Right Um, all right If you're ready to move on and look at f together Because it goes together. These are rits of possession that were already issued Okay, so what happens if we went through the process? The owner or the landlord Has a judgment and their favor And a writ of possession has been issued Under f one during the emergency period following a judgment in an ejectment or foreclosure action If the defendant was served a writ of possession not more than 60 days prior to the effective day of the act The defendant is not required to surrender possession until the end of the emergency period And the sheriff or constable who served the writ shall provide a written notice of the delay to that defendant Under b If a writ of possession was issued by the court, but not yet served The sheriff or constable shall not serve the writ and shall return it to the plaintiff Under c The courts in vermont legal age shall coordinate to ensure that defendants and ejections receive notice Of the delayed effective dates of rits issued by the court And two, this is important the effective date of a writ of possession Is paid as of the start date of the emergency period and resumes running on the emergency period So So this is uh fairly important in terms of the immediacy with which we pass this because The emergency period began March 13th, that's correct So this could all be actually happening as we meet here And it is so This is the concern I have with You know when we we just spent our all senate meeting talking about remote voting And this is this is my concern is there is fallout of this emergency Now happening now with people who need this help today Is that Okay Sorry, we just lost your face Uh is my face back? Yes. Yes I'm negotiating a new setting in my house, so Oh, okay If the defendant was served the writ more than 60 days prior to the effective date of the act what happens uh, then the normal The normal process happens. They are directed to Leave the property by the sheriff for constable serving that writ then There's a period of days and then the sheriff for constable comes back to execute the writ and ensure that they are removed from the property right Well, and presumably that has already happened because that would have been two and a half months ago we Yeah, you know, you're gonna have to look to people in the real world for how long this actually takes Right. I don't I need that's what I will hope that we'll get from gene and wendy and Angela so Great. So any other questions? Becca, charol randy Thank you. No Okay, and alson it looks like michael has joined us again to listen in Oh, great michael. It's good to have you present with us Okay, so we are now at the top of page 14. Yes, uh, we're on 14 subsection g resumption of rent escrow hearings so This is looking ahead The emergency period mercifully has ended and Rent escrow hearings may resume. Let me take one step back and refresh your memory on rent escrow hearings in 12 bs a 48 a Several years ago. I think it's been uh about 13 years maybe you created uh, sort of an expedited hearing process for certain eviction actions And the right of a landlord to file a motion with the court to order the tenant to pay rent and escrow into the court and uh, basically You have to pay the amount that A cruise as that action is pending but also the amount of back rent that you owe Since basically since the the civil action was begun And the court the court holds that until resolution. That's right um If you don't pay rent into court as you are required then You get the landlord can get uh, a rid of possession. That's good. I believe within 14 days So that's sort of the expedited process either you pay the rent that you owe or you lose possession um, so this Subsection g is intended to create a temporary rule Concerning how much rent can be paid uh required to be paid in the court Ah, got it. So remember that or bear in mind I suppose that if this emergency lasts for Six or nine months and then at the end rent escrow hearings resume And the tenant shows up in court On the tail end of this emergency period He or she may be required to pay into court nine months of rent And then whatever cruise that's ongoing and for Many people obviously That will be impossible So the purpose here is to limit again the amount that would accrue and be considered back rent and have to be paid into court So under g1 For any Did somebody have a question? Okay, sorry no worries Under g1 for any hearing on a motion to order a defendant to pay rent into court that occurs within the first 45 days after the emergency period If the court finds the tenant is obligated to pay rent failed to do so Notwithstanding 48 53 ad The court shall order the defendant to pay into court A rent as it accrues from the date of the order while the proceeding is pending and b Rent accrued from the date the motion was served If the motion was served after the effective date of this act Or to the end of the emergency period that the motion was served before the effective date of this act So that's part one. Let me say that back to you in plain English Within the first 40 days after the emergency period ends There's probably going to be a crush of hearings And of those rentless grow hearings, we're going to create this temporary rule again How much will the court make you pay into court for back rent? The answer is a Whatever is accruing while the proceeding is pending and then be Rent accrued from a date certain How do we determine what that date is? Well, it depends on when the motion was served If the motion is served after the emergency period ends basically because all service will have to be After the emergency period ends then the accrual starts tolling from that date of service however If you served that motion Before this act takes effect essentially before the emergency period Then it tolls from the end of the emergency period So that's the initial amount the court would Require and it would be less than otherwise applicable in section 48 53 a There's a second piece. I'm sorry. I hate to ask this, but how is it less until you get to number two? Well, because it's a shorter period of time um It's not it wouldn't be from You know the date that the action was filed which could have been march first It will be from the date of service or the end of the emergency period, which hopefully will be Who knows september october ish Okay, but then then we offer the next option in number two, which is you could negotiate a reduced amount of rent well, uh Negotiating the sense that you asked the court to consider circumstances and it has the discretion to do so right um So under two the court may Reduce the amount of rent the defendant must pay into court under subdivision one of the subsection after considering A the tenants ability to pay due to circumstances arising the emergency period and b Whether the tenant may good faith attempts to secure available emergency rental payment funds So that will be a balance that the court would undertake and it would have the authority though Not the duty to reduce the amount otherwise be required in subdivision one After that 45 days is up Then we go back to the default rule in statute and as normal Any questions on that? so David is the intent of the rule as it stands now to You're holding the rent in escrow to make the landlord whole and how does it differ then from what we'd be putting in place Um, it does not So the purpose of the statute as is written now, um is to To require the tenant to pay back rents or be dispossessed it's a It's an again. It's it's basically an expedited process for non in the case of non payment of rent um And it's to protect the landlord and it's to Have the money safely in the court and it's to ensure compliance by uh, both sides and the In the process of injection action And if the tenant doesn't pay Then the landlord will be restored to possession The difference here is twofold first The accrual period is shorter In second the court has some discretion to reduce the amount required Given the exigent circumstances of the emergency And if the court isn't meeting how are they making these determinations? Well, remember that this uh, this would happen after the emergency period has ended Okay, so all okay, so all this will be past tense in terms of hopefully that somebody will be I mean conceivably one could be reemployed but during that period they would have been laid off and It had reduced circumstances I mean, so that right I mean when I say this I'm referring to subsection g some of the other pieces will have to happen during the course of the emergency period And the court will have to work that out Right and that we'll hear from uh, judge greerson in in a bit Okay Any further questions on subsection g No, so this will the the court will have a notion that will have have real data as to what the tenants financial circumstances were during the course of the emergency so it Yeah, the onus will be on the tenant to provide that information to the court Okay Let's go to h Okay, so h is uh, sort of a placeholder um, let me tell you it's providence uh, this This bill has not really specifically addressed the situation of sort of emergency Circumstances within the context of a landlord-tenant relationship. What happens if there is a person who is a tenant? You know that is violating the right of peaceful enjoyment of other tenants and it jeopardizes their health and safety What do we do about that? Is uh, are the current emergency provisions uh sufficient? Do we need to say something in this act? Champlain housing trust requested language and uh, representative stevens Agreed to include it for the purpose of discussion therefore i've included it in your draft right I saw this chris uh in in an email from chris So this has actually gone through several, uh iterations and in fact there is other language under Uh Review as of this morning, but let me just tell you let me read it You'll get the gist of what's going on. So i'm notwithstanding in provision of this act Landlord may commence and a court may proceed with an action for ejectment based solely on the need Protect the health and safety of one or more residents in the dwelling house or the building That's a very general approach subsequently stakeholders uh recommended uh a more targeted approach that a landlord could avail itself of emergency injunctive relief under the rules of civil procedure if there is um either a material violation excuse me a material breach or a violation of uh of landlord tenant law that results in sort of uh immediate substantial harm to other tenants And then the plaintiff provides basically actual notice to the tenant that they are being uh Moved against for possession Right as as i was thinking about this last night. I think that that's maybe a better approach Uh the other thing that's not addressed here that should be also part of that emergency injunctive relief. I think is Uh is significant physical damage to the building I mean this is this contemplates only protecting the health and safety of one or more residents, but uh, what about protecting the integrity of Of the physical space. I mean if they're if they're crashing it in some significant Way, how do we protect the from that? So I think that's a great point. Um, you know, the the language that so far has been uh around Does not go that far In 44 56 in title nine. There's basically three tenant obligations In a b and c a is you can't contribute to a violation Of health and safety or other kind of regulation that governs the property B You can't disturb the right of quiet enjoyment of other tenants on the property and B You you can't damage the property. I mean have those Missed number, but you get the point right damage property is one of the three so As we go forward, I would I think want to also make sure that's included just because that could be significant And that strikes me as a need for emergency relief too Well, that's a policy choice for you all and I know that uh stakeholders will have Thoughts on that so I'll leave it to them I'll say lastly though that the language that I've just been referring to I you know, I saw an email this morning Um, basically saying that that probably isn't going to provide that much relief in this in these circumstances and it would be Anyway, I'm gonna so there's one more version that I'm gonna allow others to address but as you consider You know the extent to which you want to carve out exceptions to the blanket moratorium on ejections right third one Sorry randy David you said there's a third alternative. Well, so That's right. Uh, I Can I Well Just one moment I'm trying to work with two screens here So as as you are talking to us, you're also Looking at another I thought you just had one other possibility. You have a third Yes, and I'm desperately trying to Pull it up and it's not working. I think because I'm sharing. Okay. Well, we are going to be working on this for the Again, so what we don't want you drafting options as we talk um Let me Let me just address the next Why don't we yeah, why don't we finish and then let's open it up. Sure. So this this goes to Uh documents that are being filed with the court and right now you'll see in title four Um Electronic filing is available to a registered electronic filer in the judiciary's electronic document filing system if You are a registered electronic filer. You may file any document that would otherwise require Notarization Without the notarization Provided that you include this statement I declare the above statement is true and accurate for the best of my knowledge and belief I understand if it's false, so I'll be subject to penalty or perjury and Under be a document filed pursuant to this subsection does not require the approval or verification of a notary This doesn't apply to a search warrant or applications and non-testimony identification So the change Here in 27 b is to extend The option of uh filing documents with the court without notarization Basically to any party Um, you may be aware there have been rules adopted by the secretary of state's office on this subject And the court has looked at this my understanding is that they are complicated um, and uh, this would just be a very simple blanket Allowance to file documents Without notarization If they include This statement And only and only for this emergency period Actually, no So that's uh, you know, that's something you could do this would amend the law You could change this so it just says during the emergency period A party may file Without verification of a notary So it I would just say given that I know that the secretary of state's office is working through the electronic notary rules Finally given that we passed that bill last year um The and they are not Did you I didn't think they were set yet those rules. Are they david? I don't know if they're final or not. I I don't either so to me to change the law completely and please Everybody weigh in on this but to change the law at this point without those rules in place Seems to be a little bit the cart before the horse, but I may be Wrong on this and and we'll hear from other people Anybody else have thoughts on that? Well, all of the other changes in this bill pertain to the emergency period, right? So As they relate to housing, yes Yeah, and I think allison that you have a point about having passed the The law last year And the rules not being made yet. We should probably wait for that to happen to put it in into law but To use to use this um permission during the emergency period Any thoughts brandy or becca? I'm inclined to let this to the emergency at this point until we know more again That that's the focus of all the things we're doing right now is the emergency my senses. We should leave it at that Okay, well left that it doesn't mention it. So it would be we'd have to add it in this section I think we should Okay, great. David. Is that okay? Yes Yes, so we'll just make that for the emergency period only yes Great. So on on that other piece, uh, I I apologize for jumping around but I was able to pull up my email And I can let I can certainly let angel and other speak to this more but basically the proposal just would be To allow the emergency Injunction relief that a landlord might seek in those cases of you know, safety health Damage whatever you decide the the reasons are it would be to allow those to proceed immediately When the emergency period ends rather than waiting the additional 30 days, excuse me Proceed once this the the declaration is issued that the state of emergency is over So not the emergency period, but just the declared state of emergency Those so start immediately So I guess my question here is what if during the emergency? Yeah Uh, we have this kind of a situation where I mean where everyone is under so much tension and there's so much anxiety You know, I can conceive of these situations happening during the emergency and in which the landlord would need to be conceivably removing a tenant who just had lost it all together the And who was a danger both To the rest of the community or to the to the physical space. I mean is What is the opportunity for any emergency to happen during the emergency period? I'm sure that I'm sure that they will but um, you know, angela correctly points out that already in the chitenden and washington divisions They've essentially said they're not going to kick anybody out and even in So actions at all is is there a judicial order other than helen tours? Uh, I haven't seen the one in washington, but you know, it is up to the courts. Um I what an emergency is and whether to take it up and chitenden is proceeding basically that they're not going to Do right for any basis for this period For 90 days. Well if the emergency period lasts longer than 90 days It it this is only help of judge tours is only for 90 days So I guess that would be the the counter argument is that you know, there are other divisions first and then second, um, you know, what if the What if it lasts a year, you know, um, which it could so I Lots of stuff for you to consider in way. I'm going to stop there Unless there's further questions for me and allow other people, uh to weigh in on this Uh committee any questions now or shall we uh go to our our witnesses to weigh in? I think go to the witnesses Okay, anybody else of okay, great. So, uh gene should we start with you and wendy and then we'll uh chat with angela and then bet We will weigh in with the commercial aspect of it With betsy and shawn Okay, so gene it's welcome Thank you. Um, I'm gene murray. I'm an attorney at vermont legal aid I practice in landlord tenant law and other kinds of things in the superior court in the civil division and I Appreciate your opportunity for me to tell you about why an eviction moratorium A residential eviction moratorium is needed at this time um This eviction moratorium that we've just covered in section nine of this bill addresses residential evictions And it's about public health and the preeminent goal is to protect public health Uh dispossessing someone of their home during a time where it is impossible to find a new home Makes a family homeless and homelessness during a pandemic Is a threat to public health not just a threat to the people who are being dispossessed but a threat to everybody else too So the governor's order says stay home. Stay safe. And so everybody needs to be in a home Um, the courts of two counties, washington county and chitin county have issued a standing order deferring action on all motions for rips of possession For this reason that it's impossible during a state of emergency to find a new home And evictions would create homelessness About the two counties that have done standing orders What we're looking for with this bill is to have a consistent rule throughout the state Um, so that it whether or not a public health threat emerges because of evictions Isn't a matter of which county you live in right so the state of emergency has put some people out of work and the recently released housing needs study by the I believe it's department of housing and community development Has said that this year half of the renting households in vermont or some 36,000 households pay more than 30 of their income for rent um And half of those 18,000 households More than half their income for rent. Did I say that right? Yes, and we we got it. Okay um So a reduction in income during a state of emergency Will mean that for a while Some people will have a hard time paying their whole rent But everyone will owe their whole rent at the end of the state of emergency And so we are encouraging people to pay what rent they can there was a article in the Burlington Free Press today, and that's the first thing I said to the reporter is people should pay what rent they can Because they will owe the whole rent at the end an eviction moratorium isn't about Not paying rent an eviction moratorium is about the public health issue of making sure that people have a home to stay in Um, one of the things that I wanted to point out um, is that some landlords Already receive a portion of their rent from a housing authority Through a subsidizing through subsidizing programs. For example, even a private landlord like sisters and brothers investment group um Because they make many of their units available to tenants who have subsidies um either through housing choice vouchers or hop grants or other subsidies Will continue to receive at least a portion of their rent Regardless of their tenant circumstances during the state of emergency because they're receiving it from housing subsidizing agencies um so gene what percent of uh of renters receive direct payment I mean what percent of renters do you have to be in section eight housing or what what category of Of rental assistance has that payment go directly to the landlord you mean how many of the 70 seven 78 thousand renting households receive subsidies well There there are 78 thousand renters who receive subsidies of some variety No, no, no those are just renters I know my question went to your statement about some Uh landlords receiving partial payment uh, so i'm asking what category of renter has uh That part of their rent paid directly to a landlord Do any Do do any oh, I thought I'd get their payments Or is it does it go to the tenant and then the tenant has to remit it to the Oh of people of landlords who receive a portion of their rent from uh subsidy in the Forget about a state of emergency in the regular case. Yeah, that's what I just said right so if tenants Have a rental subsidy the subsidy Payment goes directly to the landlord it never goes to the tenant and then to the landlord the subsidy has always gone directly to the landlord Got it. So so I guess my question is do we know what percent of the renting population Has that happening at this moment? It well if you ask me not quite enough One of the things about uh housing subsidies and support for low income housing is that the programs have changed A lot over the last 10 years and there are all sorts of very different and complicated arrangements. Um, it's really not that easy to keep up with but one of the things that um people Know is there's a lot of people on waiting lists for subsidies and subsidized housing So I would say I can't really give you a number of how many subsidies are out there. I Well, it's just it's something to keep around I would think um, but I But I can find that out or get a better answer for you and get it back to you later, but But but that's good. I think for us to know as we look at all this is that Many landlords are getting direct payment It may not the whole rent obviously, but some A portion of the rent is being paid directly through subsidy. Yes, that's That is true and okay. Well, that's good. I I hadn't fully taken that on board. Maybe everybody else did but had but I have I mean, there are big Like champlain housing trusts that got mentioned here. They are a big nonprofit landlord and their mission is to provide housing for low income people and One way they do that is to have lower than market rents, but another way they do that is to Um, provide rental subsidies where the where the tenant doesn't pay any more than 30 of their income for rent, right? so So they they have their Subsidy money for the tenants that they have And then they're going to be looking to get rental payments from people And they and those people if they've had a reduction in income because of reduction of work They may not be able to make their entire payment right regardless of the situation We urge tenants to be able to pay what they can because they're going to end up owing it at the end right so this Just gene given our time frame this morning the draft that we have before us How are you and wendy feeling about the draft at the moment? We I wanted to talk with you about the emergency circumstances Um hard the section eight are you eight the section h so you're you're you're you're Oh, okay with it up to section h Yes, okay Um, and if you have any questions, um about how it's supposed to work or what happens in the usual case Or how this is different than the usual case particularly if I get a copy of it in front of me I can I can explain it um but So when you're thinking about extreme circumstances One of the things I would urge you to think about is extreme circumstances has got to mean where during a public health emergency where it Help helps the public health More to remove someone Then to let them stay. I mean that's really a very high standard um in favor of keeping people in their homes because Regardless of what's happening. Is it going to be a greater public health hazard? To take somebody out of their home, which I would say almost always will be the case Or to leave somebody in their home and like I mean not to be flippant about it, but What if the tenant is is having a meth lab in there that might By moving somebody during the state of emergency Beyond that. I don't know. There are already for behaviorally disordered people um There are the Emergency systems in place. Um, there is the police. They're the mental health system um that can address um people who need extra help or A different place to be In an emergency so the The section h language, which says It right now for me the way it's that's written. It's too broad because um Under this bill regardless of section h anybody would be able to file a case. They just wouldn't be able to take Move it through the court or or get any um hearing on it or any um motion so everybody be able to file a case um The section h the way it's written would say hey if the landlord believes There's a threat to health and safety a landlord could move that case and I think that's too broad um the last thing we were talking about before this hearing started um Was basically trying to figure out a way to say, okay Everybody gets to file cases no matter what the cause for eviction is but at the end of the emergency period um use Go to the four cause evictions the ones where a tenant has breached The rental agreement or the residential rental agreements act and do those first. I think that's that's what we're talking about but We haven't worked that out yet So That's angela You may want to weigh in here. Uh, does it make sense before we Spend more time on section h. Does it make more sense for you? to work out Given that you've worked fairly productively so far. I understand on this together Does it make sense for you to work on this section? And then we can revisit it later in the week Um, I'm I'm Can you guys hear me? Yeah, yes. Okay. Um I'm happy to to do that I know we have a few other voices who have been weighing in on this particular issue And I think the proposal that was currently being made was to allow These breach cases to proceed at the end of the declaration to sort of make them wait till the end of the emergency period But to sort of kick start them a little bit faster I think some of the issues that we've seen is Police mental health advocates Are have not been effective even Before this time frame and dealing with some of these issues that have been identified now whether that's going to change given the circumstances I don't know but there are some Timeframes we're asking other tenants in the building to wait out this period of time With nobody being able to take action It's going to be very difficult and challenging for those other residents in the building and potentially neighbors I get that and if there was a met, you know, and and yeah So, uh, how would you like, you know, I I'd love to have people weigh in here on how they uh It it strikes me that we need to find a balance between those between the stakeholders and I would Before the committee invests too much more time and in in going down a path that neither of you support so Angela you support the language is the as drafted 8.1. I assume I Support the language. Yeah, I think that up to h I think h is still the issue here. Oh h is still the issue So then before we invest too much more time because our time today sadly is precious. Well, time is always precious for all of us but You know committee tell me what you think but I think the stakeholders may want to come to some Uh, productive resolution on this before we weigh in too much more Am I That that it would be nice if we could come up with a balance that that everyone could agree on And if folks can't agree on it, then I think we want to look at what the alternatives are for a policy perspective that We want to deal with so But I I I think that's a good point I mean, but I think we'd like to have you guys weigh in on it together and see if you can come to agreement And then if you can't we'll we'll weigh the options Are there any other stakeholders on the call today who uh, what a comment on this? Uh, yes, I would like to Are you shawnt? I am Hi shawnt, would you be kind enough to introduce yourself for the record? Sure. Um, shawnt handy. I'm a landlord in chinning county frankly county. Um, I have about 350 units that I um look after Couple things that just caught me. I'd like to question a little bit. Um, something came up about a tenant's good faith effort um How is that going to be determined if a tenant made a good faith effort while this is going on to Pay their rent um with the monies that you know, they may be receiving um, or is there a way to possibly You know similar to how a housing subsidy pays it Landlord directly Maybe some of this, uh, I don't know if the federal unemployment Uh subsidy that's going to be coming down is going to be going through the state if that is um using maybe lc 142s that have been filed by landlords to possibly Help get some of that money instead of having to go through the tenant directly to the landlord to help with rent Just an idea. I don't know what kind of bureaucratic nightmare that might create but it's an idea um I have a situation currently where I have a tenant that hasn't paid rent since november um, haven't I finally got to court with them in march beginning in march before all this began um, and I have a default judgment order ready to go to the judge that I know now will Not be touched. They've been evicted twice before before I rented to them. I didn't realize that obviously I never would have rented to them so I I'd like to see something where tenants that have a history of being evicted and are currently Not paying the rent and looking to be evicted again. Maybe some way to Fast track that as well Um, because that's not really fair to to have that landlord knowing they're never going to pay and The landlord is never going to see a dime uh from that person um and as far as not Being able to find housing right now. I can tell you personally. I'm I'm still renting apartments. I'm still in my office every day I still have people calling me looking for apartments.  They're Very nice apartments, which is what a lot of landlords have moved towards um So about about 16 to 20 are at uh affordable affordable housing rates and and get subsidies Thank you. Um And a committee any questions for Sean or for Because and judge greerson has way has joined us glad to see you. Welcome. Thank you uh, I I just don't I think that um, it makes some sense for the stakeholders to Come together and work on this section age before we weigh in fully on on on on a policy if if you can't come to an agreement and uh, because obviously the house is going to be working on this tomorrow And uh, if if you are able to work and present any changes for tomorrow, it would be great Um, but we'll be working on this for a bit because we haven't even figured out how we're all remote Remote voting as bodies So we need at the moment the plan is to have this passed by the house asap to come to us But obviously we need to work out our How we how we actually accomplish that? Just to to through raise at this point since judge greerson is with us We're talking in section age about possibly Creating some emergency mechanism in which an eviction Can take place in an extreme circumstance But we now have the orders uh in chitin in washington county that have effectively placed a moratorium on evictions How how would the court look at let's say an emergency situation that involved an eviction That did represent a health and safety issue At least from the landlord's perspective or the situation of someone operating a mess lab Which has not been shut down by the police. How would the courts deal with something like that? Uh in the face of the orders that exist in chitin in washington counties um Senator i i'm trying to pull up the the order that was issued in chitin in county and To look at it, but my recollection is and i i just saw it at the end of the day yesterday um I believe it still has a provision in there for um emergency Emergency requests, but i'll try to pull it up while we're talking. I think I think it may be on our website Uh, but we were going to post it. I think today and it may be uh I think it's on your committee. Is it on our website yet faith or denise? No Excuse me. This is denise senator Clarkson it is not up yet probably faith is doing it as we speak because we were waiting for the okay I know you were to post a rating. We don't post things until we're discussing them So, uh, I believe it's what should be getting posted now, uh, judge grearson I think I've pulled it up. Hopefully on my other computer So, um This is uh, it's captioned vermont superior court chitin in unit civil division of file march 30th standing order The paragraph five says the court may extend Expand upon or reconsider this order as circumstances dictate Any party seeking an exception to this order May file a motion supported by affidavit with a specific showing of factual circumstances right And I I have had a chance to speak with judge tour or the other orders that were issued but that language to me Would seem to give the opportunity At least in response to the question that was asked for someone to apply to the court and say Despite this standing order This is a specific Circumstances that warrant the court intervening. That's that's clearly my interpretation of that order right Agreed So back to section h, uh any I I think given that the house is dealing with this tomorrow and they would love to have Some notion of your How the stakeholders, I mean obviously we're we're getting a sense of how you're feeling about it at the moment, but the I would Before we spend further time on it. I would suggest that you work together to come up with a balance that makes sense Would that be okay? senator if you're If i'm included in that group we've just seen the um the the Bill last night. I'm still reviewing it with other judges. I will tell the committee That the primary concerns for the judiciary at least at first glance would be around cases That are pending now as opposed to those That may come in That are new filings and mr. Handy Is this kind of situation that we need to look at work or matters already pending and Without going into a lot of detail Um, I was looking at assuming I've got the right draft here. It's 8.1 is 8.1 so, um It talks about on page 11 section c pending foreclosure and ejectment um starts out with Essentially a moratorium um I can tell you that when you start reading on pages 19 and 20 and On the following page There's no way that we're going to be able to send out those notices in five days We are operating on Substantially reduced staffs. I don't have a date for you, but it's unrealistic, but more importantly um when you skip Before you joined us, uh, brun I think we had we discussed that that might be unrealistic It is I can confirm that for you The other issue is I think as I read this this bill there was broad languages said every order is is Is put on hold and I just want to point out a couple of different situations that you can be thinking about You're a little garbled. Okay. Um, I don't know why section 9c is what I'm looking at Uh 9c which is on top of page 14. The courts in legal aid Let me find it pending foreclosure The courts in vermont legal aid shall coordinate to ensure that defendants in ejectment Actions received notice. Is that where you're talking about? Yeah, it says all pending actions. I'm reading looks like on page 11 Beginning at line 14 That's the essentially the moratorium language Right So when you talk about if you see online 17 it says out and outstanding orders So a number of judges in reviewing this have said well, what exactly do you mean by outstanding orders? for instance, if someone Has is under currently under a pay rent into court order and they have been paying Is that mean you want to suspend that order? Which means their Their rent is just going to continue to accumulate and when the emergency Period is over. They are going to have a substantially larger amount of rent owed By another example in a foreclosure proceeding If an order for sale of property has been ordered and the property is lying vacant and no one is in the property Then I would not think that you would want to just stop that proceeding. These are just a couple of examples that as we're looking at Currently pending cases. I think it requires a closer look and I'll try to have more information for either this committee or or the Mike so tomorrow the house committee is going to be taking this up and But those are good to flag at this at this moment and any thoughts My guess is david hall would appreciate getting and the I don't know where to take it Those are I would assume we would want the outstanding order if it required Reduce rental payment to continue because you're right. Otherwise the balloon will just get bigger and bigger so Uh but our Given our given our time frame and our challenge on shortness of time today Uh, could we charge the stakeholders on both? on the Particularly on section eight the pending foreclosures. My guess is Judge you can directly deal with tomorrow. Is that with the house committee? I believe um, I think I'm scheduled to testify. I have to look I think you are But I'm pretty sure the house would appreciate some uh consensus if it's possible With the stakeholders shone and angela and gene too for tomorrow if and working with david if there was language that you could come in to agreement on that I think would really be beneficial because I think all of us are trying to get this done as quickly as possible given that these are cases happening now and uh, we need to move this legislation ASAP in my humble opinion And uh, I'm sure and everybody else is too Sure, and and I'm certainly willing to work with all the folks involved to see great and you've been In great so far. We've gotten this far, which is terrific. Um, so I Is there anything else we want to chat about before this before we move on to our next update? Just keep in mind uh in the back of our minds. We're dealing with these sections on eviction So as we look at this particular bill section eight includes specific funding emergency relief funding To include among other things financial assistance for security deposits and rental payments. So the the notion of Putting things in hold in suspension a financial harm Somewhere along the line We do need to think about these particular items such as financial assistance could be also play a role in this in order to bridge the gap Absolutely, and I think we'll understand more as we do a fuller analysis on the federal belief package of what What is available for exactly this kind of thing? And I I think we're getting into some clarity on that Jean and uh, and Angela, are you getting are you understanding more fully the impact Of some of the money that was put in for exactly these kinds of Relief in the federal package And I think we have a yeah, I don't think we know yet Okay, so we're getting that analysis and my my guess is we'll all be clear on that in the next couple days Uh, David is I'm sure getting not david mickenburg who's here, but david hall who's here somewhere Uh, I'm I'm sure we're going to get a better sense of that by the end of the week Are you asking that I prepare a summary of the provisions of the cares act? Nobody has said that until now No, I think that particularly given sections eight uh We seven and eight We need to begin to get a sense And damien has done this obviously on ui and i'm sure all of you are beginning to do this But that may be an assumption We need to have an understanding of the federal impact Of the federal relief in terms of housing as it relates to section seven and eight What one of the things that we can see in looking at section eight of of this draft Is it does include things that are directly relevant to the problem including rental arrears short term? son now To us at this point though is whether or not this is our bill that relates to dcf or whether this piggybacks off Something contained in the federal act the details of which we don't know yet Exactly that is critically important for us right We we uh, so Yeah This is betsey bishop and I know you folks are trying to wrap this section up Betsy, I apologize. I you know, isn't it terrible the visual cue of not seeing you I you're right here to chat and we very much want to Uh Hear what you have to say. So I apologize. It's fine and and I think I can help you with your time frame as well So, um, I think most of what you've been talking about is certainly rental housing mostly uh for the individual and the residential I think what I was asked to do is give you a understanding of what's happening in the commercial sector Uh, the bill that you have before you and that the house will be working on tomorrow is really not Addressing the commercial sector and frankly, I'm not sure that it can But um, I thought it might be helpful if you would if you would just to hear a little bit about what's happening in the industry Right now with the commercial leases And it's not very much unlike what you're talking about on the residential side The answer is yes, and uh, that means we'll just be a little late for the update on uh workers comp But I think this is important because this will tee up The work that we will be doing because will any response on the commercial side is something we'll be doing when it comes to the senate So we'll be Uh preparing for that now. So that bet if you could do that briefly that would be great And I think I can and um specifically what'll help you with your time frame is I don't have a uh grand solution for you to insert into the bill. So this is more information in for you um But the commercial properties that you can imagine as the economy has sort of stopped if you will as businesses or have been ordered to close Revenues not coming in And the federal bill that has been Discussed and that has trillion dollars is not Designed to help businesses as much as it is designed to help So it you know as people are being laid off from work Um, there's sorry somebody needs to mute themselves. We're hearing some interference Okay, hopefully that's better Is that all right? Yes. Yep. Yep. You're fun so, um You know one of the things that we're hearing quite a bit about is uh the sba loans that are coming to help businesses And that's the predominant effort to be very clear that is Additional loan capacity. It is not cash for businesses And you're only going to get that type of help in that loan. We can have a business that was prior to Prior to the kovat 19 issue So a lot of businesses are really looking at that as uh potentially not helpful Because it's just taking one more debt at a very uncertain So, um, right and and we'll be we'll be dealing with those later the the ppp program could conceivably Be more helpful as it converts to a grant if you abide by all the things you agree to during the course of it Right. So true. Um, obviously the terms for converting to grant are not particularly clear, uh, and some of the area Again, only if you are reopening and rehiring everybody. So, um, that's making a huge leap of faith So one of the things that is happening right now is, you know, a lot of businesses are Really trying to figure out how do they last through this? Is this a 30 day problem? Is it a 60 day problem? Is it a 90 day problem? And the longer it goes on The same things that you're talking about for the people of vermont are going to happen to the to the businesses of vermont Because they are the people of vermont. So mostly what we've heard first and foremost is from the restaurant sector because that was the sector That was closed first But we're seeing that from certainly the traveling uh hoteliers as well as retail right throughout the state um And as it just as it pertains to rent, which is what we're really focusing on now the commercial rent Restaurants a huge percent of restaurants rent Most of the businesses i've heard of that are having a challenge with meeting rental obligations are all restaurants Yes, um, mostly because they're a leasing and so it's the same It's commercial rent the the lease portion of that and most of those contracts I think you brought up earlier are private in nature right and The the thing that is not known completely that um We've been looking at more and more as many of those lease arrangements in the commercial sector Must have personal guarantees on them right and those personal guarantees are what's going to crush the business owner um, and so if you can imagine, uh, a business owner Perhaps thinking that they cannot re-open They are still going to be personally liable for the length of that lease and that is where the The crushing ability to emerge from this is going to be a problem So I think that's something that we're looking at. Um, a lot of folks in the commercial sector have been talking about force major and whether or not this would be a instance for that whether unforeseeable circumstance or whether that was unavoidable mostly that has to be natural disasters in that Sorry, I just have to interrupt somebody sounds like they're preparing lunch in the background I mean that's great, but we don't want to hear it So whoever is making a lot of preparatory noises or people that would be great. Thank you Sorry Call on what we're all eating for lunch a little bit later So we we we need to move on at this point, but I that's you Your points are really well taken and it's an issue. We are wanting to take on And one that we will be addressing and david Uh, we're going to need your thoughts on this bet you we're going to need your thoughts and anyone else on the commercial lease How we provide relief in any substantive way in these private contracts is a challenging question and I'm not really sure that you can I just will leave you with one thought there are Banks and uh landlords are we are seeing their flexibility show up um, we I talked to td bank yesterday and for anybody who is at a million dollars or less loan payments they are doing almost automatic email Delays for three to six months at at an ask so they're being a lot of banks are being flexible a lot of landlords are as well So we're seeing some the question is how long does it go on? right there That lots of suggestions not sure how they'll actually fit into the law, but we'll we'll work with through that Great and more more to follow because this is a big a big issue if it's okay with everybody I think we're going to finish the eviction uh discussion Sean and angela and gene and wendy and uh judge greerson, I would hope that we could In tomorrow's discussion with the house move this forward and come into some kind of agreement If it's possible on section h and judge greerson, I we wish you well tomorrow as you Look at the the pending work In in on page 11 and we will look forward to hearing how that discussion goes tomorrow Yeah, thanks a million all right And so now we're going to move to David mickenburg and steven monahan and the work or workers comp update I'm leaving our our time is uh is challenged and we will be coming back to all of this Thank you very much for everybody who's participated gene. Thanks a billion. Sean. Thank you Great david and steve steve are you on? Uh trying to unmute here. Can you hear me? We can hear you. We can't see you, but we can hear you Okay, yes, I I um Held a large conference call yesterday about 22 participants Attorneys representing claimants, um attorneys representing uh the defense bar um And some lobbyists representing insurers and david mickenburg. Uh, we're all present. Um I received a lot of feedback. There wasn't actually a lot of agreement But based on the feedback I received I prepared a Memo that i'm having my staff review right now That I expect will be issued today addressing how we apply our rule 12 discontinuances provisions in workers comp The problems we're facing as we alluded to the other day are that claimants claimants have difficulty getting treatment insurers have difficulty obtaining independent medical exams um And we're concerned that Uh insurers may seek to discontinue benefits to workers who have Little ability to provide countervailing evidence. So those are the things that my Uh instructions to staff that will be distributing Later today will be great and so perhaps Uh I think then we wait and look at that later when we meet on thursday That's that's possible if we were to consider any Any Legislation then I guess I would say something simply that gave The department some authority to Wave certain statutory provisions Uh in the event of a pandemic It wouldn't and then and then we could go from From there the constitution appears to provide that The executive can't branch can't wave statutory provisions Without authority granted by the legislature to do so That's if if anything were done, but I I would say let's see how this Bulletin that I'm going to issue Starts to play out Okay and David That's that how does that work with you? Um, well, it was a good productive call yesterday Appreciate all the work that steve's doing on this and others And look forward to seeing the men mode. Yes, we think we agree that many many of our concerns are in rule 12 But I just want to flag one thing. We had we had come into the conversation yesterday Many in the claimants bar in the labor community talking about a moratorium on discontinuances meaning just A full stop on discontinuances so that benefits would continue for claimants So given the hurdles that they're facing An idea that surfaced and it would have to be a statutory fix and in continuing conversation with the department would be Right now the default is once a discontinuance is filed You get one week the possibility of adding another but essentially You are terminated from benefits and then you have to adjudicate your claim to try to restore those benefits One idea would be to sort of swap that to say Benefits would continue until they've been adjudicated and that would have to be a statutory provision Maybe it's what steve was alluding to in terms of giving the department some discretion In certain circumstances to allow for that But that would be something that that given given the obstacles That claimants are facing In terms of establishing that their benefits should continue whether it's going to see a doctor getting medical records And it would just be for the pendency of this emergency but Allowing those benefits content to continue until the department has time to weigh the evidence So that's one just flagging that as a potential statutory Um Fix or statutory piece that you all would need to to weigh in on Important during this time for and I just say it's not just yesterday. There are many attorneys representing the plaintiffs in the defense bar, but The vast majority of the I think 9 000 claims a year Of workers comp claims who people go unrepresented. So for many of them those 16 to 17 000 16 to 17 000 even more. Thanks steve. Um, so for those folks For those folks to have to within a week They get one week one more week of benefits or potentially two to have to navigate Uh, not only the workers comp system, but also the medical system to try to seek An opinion from their physician or other opinions and records to try to adjudicate their claim is very difficult Especially if they don't have the an attorney and the vast majority of people do not so So it looks uh, so it sounds like uh, steve's going to do finish this memo You'll review it and come with recommendations as to actions we may have to take As soon as possible Where the legislature will have to weigh in Yes, okay, great. So when we meet thursday or friday, we will hope that we'll have clarity on that to uh, if we Is that too soon is friday if we put you into our friday meeting with that? Make some sense. Would that give you enough time to It's fine from my perspective We've we've sort of done our analysis and can share that with as we started to yesterday with steve and others So it's friday or friday is fine from from our perspective. I'm happy to provide an update. I would like possibly longer to see if this Bulletin that I hope to put out today will actually solve Any of the issues Which which and which and you know in two days, we wouldn't be able to get a good sense of that So yeah, and this is betsy bishop I just have to say that if we're going to change how this is done There's a different way of doing that and that might be just extending that week during the the pandemic instead of Flipping the entire burden of proof with it, which is a much larger issue. So that's something that we would like to be involved with as well Right. I would say just just to be clear under the existing law discontinuances the The burden of proof is on the insurance company Not on the individual when they see the stops of benefits. So so we're not shifting the burden of proof for Simply explaining what must be shown Uh in order to proceed. So we're not stopping all discontinuances entirely We're just saying what has to be provided Under these circumstances in order to proceed to discontinue Got it. Yeah, the issue is under the current regime statutory regime The default is you have a week and then you're cut off and then you have to adjudicate your claim So the idea would be to extend that until you can adjudicate the claim Steve you're uh in your bullet and you you can you can extend without legislative action, couldn't you? Uh, well, that's not entirely clear that we could extend beyond the provisions in the statute We might if we felt we might Weighing the evidence conclude that there was insufficient evidence and that would continue the benefits That's the purpose of the staff's review of If we took this up tuesday, would you have time would you feel that would be adequate time to see if your bulletin actually solves most of the problem? Well, we'd certainly have Some uh time to look at some cases to see how it applied Okay So that I think that's a a fair effort To to try to try and go down that path first And then so why don't we end up sketch? Why don't we schedule this again then for tuesday? Is that okay with you david? Sounds good to me. Yep. Okay, steve. Okay Great. Thank you very much And we will thank you for your work on that and that call that sounds like it was productive Thank you. Thank you. Good. Good work. Um Do we have commissioner herrington on the phone? Uh, good morning senator. I'm here Great welcome and I see damien has joined us uh commissioner herrington The beleaguered department we are all thinking of you Uh today in preparation for our meeting on thursday where we're going to be addressing some of the challenges you face Some of the challenges we face together Um, would you be kind of just to give us an update on on where you are? Where you're seeing some of the needs for action as we look at the federal relief in the uh cares act Whether that's hindering or I mean whether it's It's creating some additional challenges at least some that we're hearing about And we would just love to have you weigh in give us an update and then maybe hear some of the challenges We're hearing about which i'm sure you're hearing about as well Yeah, sure. Uh, thank you for the time and for the record michael herrington interim commissioner department of labor Thank you senator. Uh, it is a trying time for many and especially in the unemployment insurance world, um, you know, I I fully am aware of the struggle that the public is having right now in terms of Getting in contact with somebody or helping to move their claim along You know across new england and across the country States You know, this is unprecedented in every state in terms of the spike in unemployment insurance claims And so um, unlike other states, we have been able to keep our online's open and continue to serve the public But you know, it's not It's not like being able to flip a switch and all of a sudden be able to double triple or quadruple your capacity for calls And so there is a backlog and we are aware that people cannot get through um How are you doing michael? How are you doing on staffing? Are you are you? Staff to to the max for the call center Yeah, so so what we've done is actually redirect staff that already are existing in the department that have Intimate knowledge of the ui system and redirected them to the phone lines There's an added component of complexity there because most of these people are working remotely We will have a need down the road to add staff We're trying to work out the logistics right now about how do you how do you onboard somebody when? When the entire process is remote, right or telework based And are there opportunities for us to continue the same training model we had? the just so you have an idea of You know, what i'm talking about is that there the people who are taking the calls That are actually processing claims are called unemployment insurance merit staff They've been certified as such by the federal government And and have gone through an intensive four-week training process Both to understand the unemployment insurance program and the rules and regulations around that but also how to navigate our mainframe system So clearly we we cannot continue to maintain a four-week turnaround on training So we're trying to to shorten that or truncate that as much as possible But also trying to figure out how do you How do you pair somebody up with somebody have them take calls together? Have them work in the mainframe system together. How do we get them to learn about the ui and the rules logic that comes along with? Answering a call and if the caller says this then the answer is this or the direction is that? So we are we are working on that. We're kind of in a temporary Overflow state right now in terms of staff handling calls, but we'll eventually have to move to a more sustainable model Because many of our staff will have other jobs in the ui division that they have to get back to In order to ensure program integrity We did create an online Form that people can fill out to at least initiate the claims process right and get started traffic on there Are you now what percent what percent are coming in by from the online versus the call center? Certainly the majority is online You know, but we're talking in terms of the overall Um universe of impacted individuals of you know tens of thousands of people if not more so trying to um, so even when we say You know most of it's being done electronically even a percentage of that that's going to our call center still overloads us um, and so we are Go ahead No, I just thinking it's still thousands of people that have to be processed no matter how it comes into you Well, and as you I'm sure you know because um, you've just lived in in the world of The department and the legislature long enough many of you have that You know the ui system is not a it's not an easy system It's a complex system and and many times when You know, it's not as straightforward as people think so even when someone submitting an online form There may be issues or things that hold up that claim And so when we're talking about tens of thousands of claims We're then talking about probably You know thousands and thousands of issues that come up on a claim because it wasn't filled out correctly Or it had missing information or we weren't able to match the employer with the the claimant And so those all require a hand-to-hand touch in terms of somebody Resolving the issue on the claim to be able to move it forward for processing. Um, we have started issuing payments for COVID related claims that started Over this past weekend and and into this week What people need to realize too though is that you may say well that seems like a long time since when this first happened Just remember that for the you're always filing for the week You're coming So in in those terms Some of the people who opened up a claim last week could only file for the first time Beginning this sunday the people who are impacted the people because of the delay With the the massive volume we had the people who were impacted during the week of march 15th The first time they could actually file a weekly claim was uh this past friday So again, we're as soon as we are moving through the process as quickly as possible We're already starting to issue payments. Um, and the fact is that many of these weekly claims have only been in our system for for a couple days so So the One thing we're going to want to be chatting with you about on thursday There are a couple things one is how is the ui money for self-employed going to flow? How are you thinking of setting that up with indol? Uh, I also think that there are a number of concerns being voiced about the 600 dollars Federal relief that is going to be on top of their ui claim and I think for many people There's a major concern that this is a disincentive to work because they're going to be being paid Substantially more than they were being paid when they left their work and or given our our Opportunity that we created in the bill To voluntarily leave your work that there is a major concern from employers that people will be leaving their work claiming unemployment and getting this 600 dollar benefit creating a situation where They're going to be earning much more on unemployment than they would have if they stayed working even in an essential job So I think those are some of the things that we're going to really want to be addressing on thursday Do you have any initial thoughts on those? Yeah, let me speak to these just briefly. So first of all know that the The the we certainly understand the provisions in the act what we are still waiting on is the actual administrative Guidance from dol in terms of how these programs are administered. That doesn't mean we're not moving forward We are already starting the process of how we would implement these Like the 600 dollars we have a mechanism Already for how we will implement the 600 dollars There's other benefits Such as extended benefits. So if someone exhausts They're 26 weeks of benefits. There's a mechanism for extended benefits through the federal relief package There is relief for government entities and other non-profits in terms of what their experience rating would be if they had to off And the big one I think like you mentioned is what's being called pandemic unemployment assistance, which really speaks to the self-employed or independent contractors and how that would work and we're We're looking that's going to be a heavier lift for us than anything else because When we had disaster unemployment assistance during Irene it was In in comparison to the situation we face today a relatively small confined Experience and so the people who were impacted You know that We're not at the magnitude in terms of numbers as they are now And so we were able to manage that program manually through paper claims But this certainly is not something we could do. So we're actually Probably going to be seeing if we can partner with other departments in state government like department of taxes or something like that That could help With the administration of that depending You know a lot of a lot of the restrictions we are are finding ourselves in right now are technology related So if there's other systems out there that can help us through that We would certainly we will be looking at all options. Let's put it that way Thank you so The administrative guidance from the feds is still not in place on on many of these Programs that they have excited the public about but that are not yet readily available or rolled out Which is important for us all to remember Is uh, yes, because once of course it's discussed in the press everyone thinks it's immediately available which Yes, which is a challenge and I I should say like the For instance with the six hundred dollars That was in the program that while it may not be um People may not be in to realize or see that money Um, you know for the next week or so It will be backdated at the start of March 29th So it it will be retroactive to this week Um, but it may not see it for the next week or two depending on claims filing and and federal guidance. So do Committed you have any questions? I mean Because I know randy and ian I know a couple of us have heard about this disincentive to You know, if people with this six hundred dollar edition are going to be earning So significantly more than they so much more than they were earning Is there a way for us to? To review what what what are What we actually pay. I mean so right now michael is it 53 or 57 of their income that they max out at Um, it's not it's not a clear percentage But there is a there is a 50 percent disregard along with some other factors That determines their their wage or their benefit, I should say So it's you know maximum is five hundred and thirteen dollars But you know someone Unless you're in the Very low end of the pay scale You know close to the minimum wage most people will max out their benefits with the maximum amount unless they were part time Or unless they were earning You know much closer to the minimum wage level So on thursday because i'm cognizant of our time being almost up on thursday We will really appreciate A deeper dive into the interplay between what we're offering in our ui program at the moment and what the bill we just passed and the additions of this pandemic relief and assistance and Better understanding so that's one the additional understanding About the you know self-employment and independent contractor That's another anything else committee that we want to make sure that michael's prepared for for thursday I would like to see some uh just one or two clear examples of how this would work in practice With employees at particular wage levels based on what we know One of the concerns that's been frequently expressed by businesses Is that one it may be more difficult to get people to come back to work because of the additional federal money In other words the sense that they would be earning more than they would if they came back to work Which may or may not be true Uh and secondly in during this interim right now Where there are lots of jobs available for people who are needed during the crisis Whether or not the the amounts of money that would be paid out would be disincentives for them To go off unemployment and come back to work Okay So I I don't know if you were looking for comment from me um michael herrington department on that but I I think just given our time frame today I think committee members are just voicing areas. We really want to address on thursday. Is that right randy? That's correct. Yeah, yeah any charol or becca Cheryl We can't hear you my dear We still can't that there's a lot left to be understood. So I guess, you know We'll wait until thursday and see if we can get more information One of the problems or issues that was brought to me was people being asked to go back to work I don't know how that into place with the um stay at home order And maybe the commissioner could come comment on that Later on Great on on thursday becca. Do you have anything that took for uh the commissioner to think about before thursday? I think it makes sense allison for us the the committee To generate a list of questions for commissioner herrington So that he's got them in In front of him and so I'm making a list here, but I don't think we need to do it now Great terrific. So uh senator clarkson. Yeah If I can just interrupt as you're considering options in the next few days I just want to note that the federal act provides That the state would become ineligible for the additional 600 dollar pandemic unemployment Uh enhanced benefit if it modifies its maximum weekly benefit to make it less or modifies its formula to diminish the average weekly benefit under the state plan So we are not allowed to diminish our benefits and use the In light of the enhanced federal benefits. So any options we consider Have to take into account the non reduction role that's included in the federal act And I'm happy to speak to that more detail on thursday Great Let's as we create our agenda that is uh that will be A key update uh and under better understanding of that so Um Commissioner herrington, we're plan we're planning on meeting at 9 30 on thursday Are you would you be available to join us then for about you know an hour? Uh, I will put it on my calendar, but I'm also thinking I may include Uh, ui director cameron wood and dirk anderson our general counsel. Um, so even if it's not me, um, it It it may be both of them. Uh, only because they are they can speak to more specifics Great that that would be terrific because I think we're going to be devoting at least the first half probably the first hour and a half of our meeting To uh ui and more fully understanding this So, uh, unless there's something else committee, I think we're done for today. I thank you for your patience and good work and, um More to follow but we meet next thursday morning at 9 30 And taking you off live youtube now Okay faith. Thanks a million