felly mae'n ddweud y dweud y labio ychydig yn ymgyrchol iawn. Felly mae'n blynyddio, yw'r lliwyddoch. Oni'n ddweud y ddweud y ddweud yn gweithio'r stafol llunicol a'r ddweud yn ystafol ac ydym yn gweld y ddweud y ddweud y ddweud yn ddweud y ddweud, ychydig yn rhoi'r ddweud y ddweud yn gweithio'r ddweud, ... pretending digital resources to help some of the generic learning that tutors and students can pick and mix... ...and also the e-portfolio will help facilitate feedback and assessment. As the projects have gone on in the first year, we have found that it is absolutely central to have an e-portfolio. sydd yw'r ffantafol iawn i'r cyntaf o'r wabodau yn dweud. Rwy'n rhaid i ddodol â'r partnerau. Rwy'n rhaid i gael partnerau yn UCDUL. Rydw i'r partnerau yn NUI Golway, ac mae'n gwaith i BOLL yn dechrau. Dwi'n rhaid i'r gwaith i'r gael i'r holl. Rydw i ddim yn ysgrifennu i'r unigol i'r Llyfrgell ac i'r gymhreithio Llyfrgell yn Daublin. Mae'r rhaid i rhoi i ddysgu'r ysgrifennu e-portfolio piloting and evaluation, competency frameworks, a sharing of the competency frameworks and development of digital resources are essentially within a partnership of the network. So what have we achieved? At the last panel meeting we had prepared a lot of content but we didn't have a digital platform and so you suggested that we focused less on inter-professional education and Dimpner. Thank you very much indeed for giving a lot of reasons why that was a good idea and to build the platform against which to put the content on. So that's essentially what we've been focusing on but I'd like to say that the collaboration between the partner institutions across the country is functioning better and better. We've got buy-in, we've got ideas, we've got new ideas and it's a vibrant group. We've got some policies and protocols mainly based around e-portfolios and we've also looked up common competencies within the statutory documentation for medicine, nursing and pharmacy. We'll come on to that in a little while and Erin, our project manager, will talk you through some of the e-portfolio documentation in a while. We are continuing to develop digital resources and we've got a web page. We've got apparently a Twitter feed and we've now got an app so students can put it on their phone or their tablet. That's what they insisted on when we were getting student feedback last year. So what are the deliverables? If I could introduce Erin O'Connell who's our project manager and she's going to show you some of this. Okay, well the first thing we're going to just look at the website and really this is the major platform of how we're going to deliver things to our students and also to our tutors. One of the main things that feedback we got from students was yes, we'd like this but we wanted on an app. So I spent a lot of time, I'd only started on the project actually seven weeks ago, so I've spent a lot of time to get to this stage in the last seven weeks. There's a huge amount of information gathered by the team, by the partners and the exec on e-portfolios. We have in particular TCD have been piloting e-portfolios with first-year students who are now just going out in placement. UCC, School of Nursing and Pharmacy have also been piloting e-portfolios and then IT truly have been very, very strongly piloting e-portfolios so much so that they've built it into their curriculum and they have been assessing it through a module.  So as you come to the e-portfolio section, you have your standard definition of what are the e-portfolios, then also you have how do students use them. Now a lot of we've been very lucky with our partners in IT truly in that as they were going along and piloting the e-portfolio they were encountering a lot of issues say we picked a tool, pebble pad, to pilot for the e-portfolios and while pebble pad does everything that it can possibly do, it also can add a little bit of complexity to when you're piloting a portfolio and so the lower afty there came up with some fantastic presentations number one, but it's a 30 slide presentation so that'll tell you how much is involved in actually getting the e-portfolio up and running so she also created some little videos and our audios really what they are using and screencast is going to see if this one works here and what I like about these is for students they were short tiny little clips work to while ago didn't work and I actually have one here which I can show to the form working. I should stop it. So we're very grateful to our partners and to Lee for supplying that to us and we found that very beneficial in pharmacy and also in nursing and UCC that we were able to share these between us and our students found them very useful as well. How do tutors use the e-portfolios? Recently we were invited to a pebble pad user group meeting in Dublin so this gave us an opportunity to reflect on actually you know we were throwing ourselves in at the deep end using e-portfolios and using pebble pad and but this gave us an opportunity to assess how we were using it ourselves so we're to come up with what we liked about pebble pad what we didn't like about pebble pad how we would like to see it changing in the future and how our students were benefiting from it and there's a very good presentation there and that you should be able to go in and take a look at it again it's probably another 20 slide presentation on how tutors use e-portfolios and Tom O'Mara in the office of vice president of teaching and learning in Cork and gave a fantastic presentation to a wider form on the technology to support e-portfolios and he was doing a comparison basically of your very basic portfolio starting with say word word press linked in going right up to the top of the range which is what pebble pad which is the one that we chose to pilot and when he was saying all portfolios are equal and some are more equal than others that's definitely what we found as well in complexity and also in what it can deliver for you we have a comparison of tool section I haven't actually uploaded that here yet we have fantastic work done on assessing what pebble pad can bring you know to a module and assessing core competencies and reflections and but also we have their comparisons of other tools like Mahara and that I want to get approval for wording especially if you're putting it out on a public website like this we have the criteria that we used for choosing our our portfolio are you portfolio and we began basically with a paper based portfolio and then looked at what adding technology would bring to each of those areas and it was a very good way of doing it and it kind of opened up our eyes to you know whatever you had in your paper based portfolio needs to be better again for your digital based portfolio. We have an evaluation of the project reflective practice section and also an assessment and feedback section we have some very good documents for you know survey monkey surveys and also questionnaires for students and tomorrow actually I'm traveling to Tralee and because now that they have finished a module completely in any portfolio we have a focus group running because the students have their marks now so we have two focus groups for students running tomorrow and one for tutors and just to see what their feedback is a lot of the feedback coming in was you know that you know you can't assume students all have the same IT capabilities it also opened up in a you know areas of a huge amount of training involved for using e-portfolios as well which I'll go into a little bit more in our sections of lessons learned so I'm just going to hand you over to Henry now on the competency frameworks that's okay just as well we're running this on a test website because we got the name registered last Thursday so we're a little bit nervous about moving everything over and before today so keep going down sorry oops no no sorry just back here yep so we spent a long time looking at the the statutory documents for pharmacy the nursing for medicine and we in fact we got an English postdoc as a project assistant to look at the the themes within those so there would not be any sort of medical or nursing or pharmacy bias and what we found that you could divide the shared conferences into professional and practitioner areas and I've given some examples here we subdivided them and the work that we're doing with the digital resources with our partners is to work out suggestions for clinical scenarios and tutorials that may cover this and then going a lot on on the the the help that Dimpnig gives us it from her project to try and work out how we can get nurses doctors and pharmacists together we've had one or two focus groups and they say that the interprofessional discussion and learning is very very important so what what are we doing we've developed a very strong a very cogent network of practitioners and educationalists we've developed a shared competency document we're probably going to publish in two different journals one an educational journal and another one a professional journal we've looked at beyond the how to do portfolio instructions to say how do you actually use it how students and tutors what what are the shortcuts so and the the evaluation of the e portfolio will be submitted for publication we're developing a library of clinical scenarios and other digital resources mainly with our partners in UCC and in University of Limerick and we've got sharing of materials and guidance which we hope can be used for interprofessional learning how we evaluating the project I've sent the two-year work plan through to the National Forum the other day that members of the panel can look at that to check where we're doing but essentially we're using the work plan to see what we're achieving and what what the hold-ups have been we're doing pretty well and since we got agreement from the National Forum to appoint a project manager with a high level of digital skills it's made the the platform much easier to put into place we're piloting the portfolio and the website and the Twitter feed is live so this is just examples of the work plan I won't go into details there and what and then if we can just have a look at some of the digital resources for a couple of minutes the first one and Audrey Griffin is very happy for me to use this fully she's given consent and she's a lady who's going through treatment for cancer and there's some fellow talking to the beginning we've got 35 minutes of an interview with a remarkably strong woman and also we've had a second interview halfway through her treatment we're currently editing it up into two or three minutes snippets communication breaking bad news how to deal with the other professionals how not to talk to people so that these aren't just talking about the cancer journey that they can be dropped into various tutorial or generic tutorials another one and then we have another interview this is with Dr Jenny Swan from Sheffield who is a GP had worked for nine years in an asylum centre talking about cultural awareness I think we're running out of time so Jenny thank you very much indeed just briefly to finish things off and just one of the things that we you know kind of keeping with the reflective aspect of the project I just wanted to talk for a minute or two about the lessons that we've learned so far in particular and for example in the area of digital resources just even sharing the the physical way of sharing resources digital resources between the partners we had to create a YouTube channel for e-preps so that we could easily up and download share the videos and also have access to them on the website and within the area of e-portfolio I suppose when you're assessing an e-portfolio there's different complexities involved in each of the modules you need to look at your module to make sure it actually lends itself to an e-portfolio is there an area of competency assessment is it is there an area of reflective assessment for the student also one of the things is open and open source and closed source and for example an e-portfolio too like Mahara will give you an open source but that to me screams I need an IT person working on this as opposed to the closed source that we picked with pebble pad that gives you all the templates and you can get up and running straight away and the other thing that we found was you know when you're starting off with an e-portfolio sometimes it's nicer to it's easier to be able to start with the clean slate so you're creating your own templates whereas in nursing they wanted to keep a workbook the workbook that they have in the hospitals they wanted that you know imported into an e-portfolio and that was quite complex thing to do as well but carline and our exec managed to very good job of it the other thing to take into account is also the revisions of e-portfolio software so the one that we're currently working with is already going to be out of date in September there's going to be a new revision of it now it will be better and everything like that but there's going to be an element of retraining involved in that also one of the feedback that we got from Survey Monkeys please don't assume that all your tutors and your students have the same IT skills I better just rush through this thank you very much the national forum to our office of vice president teaching and learning to the exact group and our national partners this is our support staff I'd also like to say the biggest lesson that we learned was that we were floundering a little bit until we had some expert project management so thank you to Catherine Aaron thank you to the master student at UCC and pharmacy and our project assistant who did the thematic analysis and you can find us there sorry for over on it


Hey, we're not here. Okay. If you're watching us on YouTube, this isn't happening. It's all an illusion. You're having a meltdown. No, what's really happening is that we are moving our live streaming over to Twitch because the Hangouts on Air system doesn't, we just don't have confidence that it's going to stick around. So we wanted to find an alternative solution. Roger and Amos did some hard work to figure out how to stream us to Twitch. Twitch has a lot of cool things that you can do when you're live streaming. So twitch.tv slash Good Day Internet to watch us live Monday through Friday at 4.30pm Eastern, 1.30pm Pacific time. We will continue to post Daily Tech News Show to YouTube.com slash Daily Tech News Show. But if you want Good Day Internet, the audio and video will be available to patrons at patreon.com slash DTNS or you can watch live at twitch.tv slash Good Day Internet. Well put, Tom. We're going to have a few minutes to fill your heads with whatever we need. Teeth information. We're talking all about the teeth. Kiki, before we start, when was the last time you were on the show? I feel like it's been a while since I've seen you. Yeah, it's been a couple of months. A couple months, yeah. I think two and a half, two and a half, two months. So it was in 2019. Yeah. The days lawn together sometimes. How's life up north? Oh, it's good. We've hit our spring stride. The roses are in bloom right now. We're in the middle of the Rose Festival. Oh, I love the roses of Portland. They're really beautiful. They are and they smell so good. It's just, yeah, it's lovely. It's that wonderful time before the heat of the summer actually kicks in. But it's great up here. And my son is almost out of school for the year. And it's going to be real summer pretty soon. We were talking about spring and roses when you said my son. I thought you meant the sun. My son. It's my son in the sky. It's my school. My son. Yeah, in summer vacation, out of school and shining on me. What's the highest it normally gets during the summer? Oh, it can get up into the hundreds. Usually not super high, but like 102, 103. That's hot. It's pretty hot. I was in Portland in the 90s. In the summer and there was a heat wave. Yeah. And it was hot and kind of muggy even. Yeah. Are y'all ready to talk about robots? Let's do this. Yay, Apple is a robot. Apple is a robot. Yesterday we mistakenly mentioned Patrick Beja would do with us today too. He's not... Except he kind of is. In fact, we're going to start the show with Patrick Beja. So here we go. In three, two... Hey, Tom, Sarah, Roger and Kiki. Patrick here. Unfortunately, I'm still off the show. I apologize. I will be back next week for E3. But I did want to send a quick message about the Apple Sign In feature that was announced at WWDC. Sign In with Apple, which is going to be in competition with Sign In with Google, Facebook and everything. You know what it's about. I just wanted to mention that I think it is the biggest announcement of the conference. It solidifies Apple as a company that sells essentially data privacy protection as much as anything else, or maybe not as much, but in large part. And I think this is massive. No other company has the weight and power to offer that kind of alternative. And I think it's a really big deal. I would have loved to be there to talk about it more yesterday or even today. But alas, that's going to have to do for me. Love you all. I miss you and I'll be back soon. This is the Daily Tech News for Tuesday, June 4th, 2019 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Feline, I'm Sarah Lane. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Chang. Yes, indeed he do. It is time for some tech news and we have got some cool stuff. We're going to follow up with some Apple clarifications. Things that always come out after they do their keynotes. But Dr. Kiki from This Week in Science is also here. Dr. Kiki, what are you going to tell us about? I'm talking about fingers and robots. No, it's a digital story. It's a digital story. Brains and robots and fingers. There we go. I cannot wait to hear more about this. Let's start with a few tech things you should know. Enhanced tracking protection which blocks cookies from a black list of thousands of third-party trackers is now on by default in new installations of Firefox. We come the default for existing users in the coming months as well. Mozilla also announced improvements to its Facebook container extension and released a Firefox desktop extension for its password keeper, which is now called Lockwise, formerly called Lockbox. The leader of the US House of Representatives Anti-Trust Subcommittee, Representative David Siciline, announced a probe of tech companies to determine if they stifle competition and harm consumers. Seems to be a popular thing to say these days. Amazon users on Android in the US and Japan can now digitally try out different shades of lipstick using Live Mode on their front-facing camera. An iOS version is slated for launch later this year. Live Mode uses AI-powered data from brands and images and descriptions aggregated from social media. It's powered by Modi Face, which L'Oreal bought last year. Alright, let's talk a little bit about Tim Cook and his reaction to all this stuff about anti-trust investigations in response to the report that the Department of Justice has now taken jurisdiction to investigate, not just Apple, but Google Face, or Google as well. Tim Cook told CBS News, with size, I think scrutiny is fair. I think we should be scrutinized. But if you look at any kind of measure about is Apple a monopoly or not, I don't think anybody reasonable is going to come to the conclusion that Apple's a monopoly. Following a Supreme Court decision that developers had standing to sue Apple over the App Store, California app developer Donald R. Cameron and Illinois' Pure Sweat Basketball have alleged in federal court in San Jose, California that Apple's App Store is, in fact, anti-competitive. So Tim Cook saying, we're not, people are now going to court to say you are and it looks like there's going to be an investigation. We just heard about a congressional investigation of tech companies in general. So this will be a story for a while. Yeah, Tim Cook is going to say this whether or not anybody at Apple thinks that Apple might be a monopoly. So it's not a surprising quote and it's not really all that interesting anyway. But I think what the courts have granted developers to move forward with is going to be interesting. Yeah, Dr. Kiki, do you have any thoughts on whether you consider Apple anti-competitive or not? Well, I mean, I think it's debatable. All these really large companies, they control multiple markets. And it's arguable that Apple has to control its marketplace. It has to control its software. It has to control the apps and the hardware to be able to maintain the Apple-ness of its product. But then again, could it all be split apart and could that be maintained? So all of these Google, Facebook, Apple, these walled gardens, the walls either need to come down and we need to bring them down on all of them or we're just going to have to let them keep going. The Hamilton Public Library in Hamilton, Ontario has joined the Internet Archive's Open Libraries Program. The program uses controlled digital lending or CDL to make digital copies of almost one million print texts available worldwide. Libraries can't lend more than the physical, the number of physical copies that they hold and restrictions also prevent copying or redistribution. Otherwise, very cool. Yeah, I think this is interesting. I had not heard about controlled digital lending. Archive.org has so many projects going on. It's not surprising, but the idea behind this is that if you want to lend out a copy of a book but that person can't get the physical copy, maybe the Internet Library loan doesn't work for this particular person, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to scan a digital version of it and make it available to anyone who has an Internet connection worldwide. The idea is that once that has happened, you can't give it to anybody else, so you're trying to fend off any kind of exploitation of this for copyright infringement. And when you join CDL, Archive will look at your entire collection as a library and tell you which texts they already have scanned in so you don't even have to scan those. You can just authenticate that you have those and only scan the ones that nobody else in the system had. Yeah, it's exciting. I think moving forward, this is going to allow interlibrary lending, allow much greater movement of works around the world and greater information sharing. Yeah, and if people don't know, the knee-jerk reaction might be like, well, this will get squashed, but libraries and digital content have been working very well. Check your local library and find out what apps they have because they probably have one that allow you to check out audiobooks and e-books and things and even movies and TV shows. There's also, yeah, I checked out my local library branch recently. It's right down the street for me. It's real nice and they don't kick you out. They don't make you order coffee if you want to use the Wi-Fi. It's a lovely co-working space and sure, your library may vary, but yeah, the libraries are thriving and they've got a lot of great resources for the community. And librarians have been working on this information sciences for years and how do we maintain copyrights? This is something that is crucial to library sciences and to literature and information sharing moving forward. Yeah, I'm looking at the Hoopla app that the LA Public Library uses right now and I can get RBG or Pokemon the first movie and just watch them right on my phone right now with my library card. Spotify Stations is now available in the United States after launching on iOS in Australia last month and now on Android in Australia last year. The Lightweight app offers easy access to curated playlists with a more radio-like experience rather than your customized libraries and playlists. So users can personalize stations by selecting a favorite artist, say, but you can't pick every song that goes in them. A favorites playlist based on the user's interest also exists in the app. It's very similar to the way Pandora was for years in its early days. Free users of stations will hear ads and can't skip tracks, but if you're a Spotify Premium user, you get unlimited skips and ad-free listening. Over in the main Spotify app, five curated playlists of podcast episodes are going to start showing up for about 5% of the users in Argentina, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Sweden, the U.S. and the U.K. Themes of the list include comedy, true crime, geek culture, walking, motivational. So I guess it's stuff to listen to while you're walking and relaxing or mindfulness. A couple of things going on here. One is sort of the Lightweight app where you're like, I don't want to make choices or I don't have a phone that has a lot of storage on it and I want to be able to listen to Spotify stuff. And the other one is good for us, you know, trying to get more people into podcasts. Yeah, absolutely. I'm not a Spotify user, but I am an Apple Music user and I often will just hit the radio button because it's like, give me a genre that I like because I am a radio user.  So I can see why Spotify is like, why not?  Give folks another option if for some reason the full app is a little bit overwhelming. And yeah, as far as podcast themed playlists, I love this. I want to know what geek culture is that Spotify considers geek culture. Yeah, I know what I consider it to be, but yeah, sure. But I think so. But often these sorts of things are a little hit and miss, but I will find something that I wouldn't have found otherwise and I'm happy to know about it. I also like walking, so motivation is good too. Yeah, especially if you're motivated to walk. But Spotify has now opened up its own podcasting platform and is probably going to be allowing, having its own specially featured podcast. So I'm wondering who will these curated lists be made up of? Like you are, Sarah. I mean, it's are they pay for play? Are they podcasts that Spotify employees just really like? How do you get into these lists? And seriously, is a motivational walking podcast like you can do it. Just take one more step. Keep walking. I don't know what I'm talking about. You can go under that tree. It might just be something that's got a good beat.  You are great and you can do it and keep on going. There you go. Spotify is the walking podcast. Spotify has acquired some original content companies, Gimmut Media being one of them. So one would think these will be prominently featured, but as somebody who's always been trying to get Apple to pay attention to my podcast over the years with varying results, I know that, yeah, that sort of curated editors pick stuff can be a little confusing for the rest of us. Well, folks, if you get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes, that means you're subscribed to DailyTechHeadlines.com and it's working. If you're like, wait, I don't get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes. Well, by goodness, go over to DailyTechHeadlines.com and take care of that right now. All right, we're going to do a lightning round of Apple aftershocks, things that came out after the WWDC keynote yesterday, starting with iOS developer Steve Moser, noting that 9 to 5 Mac confirming that the first beta of iOS 13 includes an asset package used for pairing devices by proximity, similar to how AirPods and HomePods work. The product type, though, is Tag 1 comma 1. Sounds like a tile type system. Another asset found in the beta shows a mockup of a white circle with a blue border around it, matching the description of Bluetooth tags that Apple is said to be developing to work with its Find My app. So Apple might be coming up with its own version of tile. Well, I don't know. I've mentioned on a previous show that I no longer use a tile for more than kind of a paperweight that's part of my key chain. However, I know that there are many people who love this feature, and if you want to keep track of your stuff, keys, or otherwise, then it makes sense based on what we heard yesterday that Apple would be doing this. Yeah, lightning round, Kiki, what do you think? Yes, no, I don't care. I don't really care. Fair enough, moving on. Fair enough. We all have opinions. Ars Technica got the official word from Apple that iTunes for Windows will continue to work and be supported just like it is now. We wondered about this yesterday. Apple didn't say what would happen to it in the future, however, but for now it sounds like it's going along. Also, Apple Music in macOS Catalina will access existing music libraries, including rips from CDs and MP3s and things added from other sources along with your iTunes purchases, and non-itunes files can continue to be synced to the clouds.  It's going to be just fine. Good advice. Developer Steve Trouton-Smith notes that in iPadOS you can plug in a USB mouse and it works with an assistive touch feature. There does seem to be a Bluetooth device section in the pointing devices settings as well, but that has not been confirmed to work yet, so don't get too excited about Bluetooth mice with your iPad, but it looks like with iPadOS, when it comes out, you'll be able to plug in a mouse on your iPad, which we never thought that would work. Thumb drives, mice, it's a whole new world. Right, it's like almost like a little computer. Almost, not quite. Well, it's funny too, because my first reaction was like, would I want a mouse? And the answer is, yeah, I'm just so used to not being able to use it that way that now I'm wondering why I would use it that way. I know they're doing some windows, but if they could do like almost an infinite number of windows overlapping on the screen that I could move around with that mouse, that would be something. I'm imagining it using it as a teleprompter, right? If you had a mouse right next to you, you could just scroll right through. I actually use it as a teleprompter. Would it be better with a mouse? I don't know about that. Yeah, well, we can try it out when the version is available. Developer Ben Sendofsky notes that in its updated App Store review guidelines, Apple writes, quote, sign in with Apple will be available for beta testing this summer. It will be required as an option for users and apps that support third-party sign-in when it's commercially available later this year. This seems to imply that if you use Google or Facebook sign-in, you will also be required to offer Apple sign-in if you want to be in the App Store. Oh boy. Remember those stories about anti-competitive behavior? I'm not saying this is a clear example of anti-competitive behavior, but you can be sure developers are going to be upset about this and complain that this is anti-competitive behavior because they won't want to have to implement this if they don't want to implement it. Well, I mean, is that anti-competitive though? It's offering another option that Apple has laid out as a, for many people, better option. Well, it's forcing the developer to offer it. It's not forcing me as a user to use it. Well, no, but they're saying to a developer, if you want to be in the App Store, and you want to offer a competitor sign-in, you also have to offer our sign-in. We want to compete. We want to play. I think Apple may have a point that the way that its sign-in works is so different than at least Facebook and Google to use two other examples that it has a point. Well, what I see what you're saying. Yeah, what I'm saying is I can choose to not use anybody else's sign-in and run it myself, and I don't have to do Apple sign-in. It's only, according to this, if I'm using Google or Facebook sign-in, that then I have to use Apple sign-in. I don't get a choice if I decide to use anybody third party. Yeah, isn't this being argued as a, hey, well, if you want to stay within the privacy of our system and not be snooped on by other outside interests, then that's great. That's definitely what Apple's doing. Yeah, our Apple users want this. Apple also added a line that in limited cases, companies using multiple device management or MDM for parental controls may not sell, use, or disclose to third parties any data for any purpose and must commit to this in their privacy policy. If you missed it, they said you can use MDM for parental controls. Made a big deal of how MDM shouldn't be used for parental controls, which I found reasonable, and now they're saying, okay, well, as long as you abide by these rules, we'll go ahead and soften that. Apple was previously restricting companies who were criticizing them for anti-competitive behavior for doing that. So it seems like they had a little change of heart there. Well, like Tim Cook said, nobody would think that we're a monopoly if they're reasonable. We're not anti-competitive. Come on. Last week, Apple raised the limit for app downloads on cellular connections to 200 megabytes. This is a leftover from when mobile carriers were worried about data congestion and all the plans had data download limits. 9 to 5 Mac reports that iOS 13 beta shows a card warning a download is over the limit if you're on cellular, but you can download it anyway if you want to. There's also a setting to just always allow downloads no matter the size. No, that's nice. Give me a choice. I like that. And of course, with every new OS release, there will be some hardware that can't support it. And the list of hardware that will not get iOS 13 is as follows. iPhone 5s, iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPad Air, iPad Mini 2 and iPad Mini 3. And Gadget notes that means that the iPhone SE, the 6s and the 6s Plus are now the oldest devices to support iOS 13. All right. That's our Apple lightning round. Hope you feel more well-informed about some of the things that weren't in the WWDC keynote. And now Dr. Kiki has brought us a story about how the Six-Fingered Man from Princess Bride has paved the way to let us control robotic limbs with our thoughts. Yeah. If I have that right. I think you've got the general idea there. Yes. So it's not necessarily a story about the Six-Fingered Man, but researchers have been trying to figure out how people born with extra fingers actually move those extra fingers. What parts of their brain are involved in that extra processing and does that extra processing actually create a load on the brain and what it what it's achieving with motions of the body and the end goal here is maybe we can use the information gained from figuring out how polydactyl people actually use their brains to move their limbs to help people use extra limbs that are artificial. So robotic limbs potentially. Could surgeons be more easily trained to use robotic arms? Could astronauts be used to? Could astronauts be trained to use extra limbs as well for missions and would understanding how the brains of people who are born with more digits help us do that. It's really exciting. So the question according to the researchers who just published in Nature this week they said even though we've known about polydactyly in people and cats and you might know your Six-Fingered Orange cats but people also are born with more than five digits on their fingers and tones at times but nobody has ever looked into whether or not it's muscle or nerve inputs from the surrounding digits that control that sixth digit or if there's actual brain input coming in to control number six and so the researchers looked at people tying their shoes working keyboards doing all sorts of tasks with their six-digited hands and in the case of tying shoes they could tie their shoes one-handed so there's even a manipulation benefit to having extra fingers. I found this fascinating because part of the story was about how it's hard to find people with polydactylism because it's usually corrected quote-unquote because people see it as a birth defect and so they found a woman and her son who both had an extra finger between the thumb and forefinger and they could do things like tie their shoes with one hand. Mm-hmm tie their shoes one-handed and we were talking about, you know, we're talking about devices and our screens is there the possibility that with six fingers you have more control over your IOS device? Pinched to zoom at these six-figure gestures though there's not very many people going to be able to do that. There's got to be some advantages. Now, I know with polydactyl cats which is fairly common Yeah that's it's almost always symmetrical, you know if you're polydactyl it's it's both parts. Yep with humans that's not the case, right? I think it depends. It definitely there are different ways that it can be expressed if it is expressed in a in a in a basic gene mutation that is part of the symmetrical development of the person and yes it's on it would be both. Yeah. If it is if it's a mutation that only occurs on, you know on later in development then you're going to get it only on one side or the other because it'd be really interesting to have somebody who again if it was not corrected and it was only on one side to explain this is what I can do with the extra digits that I can't do on the other hand you know because you've you've got something to to test against right and to get back to the to what I think the technology aspects of this article is they identified Kiki if I have this right they identified the part of the brain that gets devoted to this extra digit and because of that they're like oh well that's that's kind of flexible up there if you have an extra digit you you you just use a part of your brain that would be used for other things otherwise maybe other digits and so maybe we can figure out how to do that and people who don't have extra fingers or extra toes to control something else that's when you get the Doc Ock situation exactly you know where you're you're controlling these external things to you so you you could you could have you know like you said a doctor with a a third robotic arm to assist in the surgery that he wouldn't have to talk to he could just control it himself or yeah and if we're talking yeah the future of brain control interfaces if you just have to imagine it in your brain you know it would make the reality of it so much simpler yeah and so in our brain the motor cortex when we lose limbs we know that the parts of the brain that used to control those parts of the body do start to get encroached upon by other areas our brains never want to just let brain brain tissue go fallow our brain is always trying to maximize its use of space and so the amount of of nervous tissue that is there for your fingers then is going to get allotted up based on how many fingers you have and so the question is if you're learning something since birth what is the difference between you and somebody who wants to put on artificial limbs as an adult can you start to approach the the brain tissue allotment in the same way so that's the trick that that's the thing they haven't figured out that was not in the study of nature communications which is can we can we shoehorn an extra limb into your brain into your brain control yeah and I mean I imagine that if you were to I don't know if you were to to practice often enough it would be like learning to play the piano learning to drive a car learning to use a pen a pencil any any device it's it would be a tool and your brain will create pathways to make the use of that tool easier and easier over time and so I don't know would you have to put on those artificial limbs and never take them off would it be something that it would you know you can take them off and put them down and your brain goes okay that's awesome I don't I'll just save that space for later you know so there's good there'll be some really interesting questions I mean our blade our brains are very plastic because you'll need to wash it yeah right you would need to wash it at some point your brain that is no you just live the extra limb and the brain yeah I wonder if it's sort of like trying to teach yourself to right with the opposite hand right if you grew up left-handed trying to right right-handed exactly is it is it going to be like that or is it something even weirder or harder well and we always say well you know if you'd learn to play the piano or ride a bike or lots of things we learn a language at a younger age you have the advantage because there's just you've got so much more absorption potential in your brain then when you get older and it's harder to to adopt these things but then you've got situations where you know I know somebody who had a stroke he was a very accomplished artist and he his right side wasn't really working anymore and now he draws with his left still really talented it's just different so I wonder you know in those sorts of situations where you almost have an opportunity to to be able to adopt some of this stuff mm-hmm yeah for the people who relearned to talk by imagining themselves singing or that's yeah yeah there's not going to be a weird all of it though I mean it'll be a massive learning curve as with you know as we're seeing with all the brain control interfaces that are coming up in research it's none of them are easy to take on and something that would be an extra limb that that control would be kind of tough to make fine-tuned well something we like to consider our extra limb is our subreddit you could submit stories and vote on them at daily tech news show dot r facebook group facebook.com slash groups slash daily tech news show they're like two extra lobes of our brain it's true yeah just feeding good information every day all right let's check out another lobe of our brain the mailbag Daniel Nas and Cincinnati was at the mall recently said I was at the food court in Kenwood mall on Saturday in Cincinnati and I discovered this kiosk he also sent us a picture of the kiosk which is an uber kiosk Daniel says apparently uber is trying to get new drivers in my area looks like an automated system you walk up to and automatically get connected to a recruiter at uber when I took the picture of the kiosk a nice man sitting over to the right off-camera stood up and asked if I had questions or if I ever had thought about driving for uber he said they have about 20ish kiosks around the nation in malls trying to recruit more drivers so his job was to get somebody excited enough to pick up the phone at the kiosk then an uber recruiter would come on the screen and talk to you about driving for uber and potentially fill out an application right then and there this is why I am not concerned that automation in the long term will wipe out all jobs I'm not saying I won't disrupt things and there won't be problems than there are because there are and we've talked about that but look at this like instead of being like oh we'll just put up a kiosk and that'll be it they're like now we really need somebody there standing there yeah kind of like explaining to you waiting for you to get interested enough see recently but I have not seen one of these kiosks and I'm not sure how close the nearest one is to me but it would yeah I I would love to witness somebody being like oh cool this is exactly what I've been meaning to do and here's this kiosk and now it's like a very convenient for me well and instead of having to get all of your experts on talking to people about driving in and spread them out to malls around the country you have mall in one room in San Francisco is my guess yeah people who don't have that specialty to stand around by the kiosks and and help people understand and do the kiosk to to make the connection it's that personal connection yeah yeah well thanks for the email Daniel and thanks to everybody who emails us every single day and also thanks to Dr. Kiki Sanford for being with us on the show so good to have you let folks know where they can keep up with your fabulous work thank you for having me on the show again you can find my work this week in science is my podcast you can find it twist T W I S dot O R G and you can follow me on Twitter at Dr. Kiki D R K I K I don't forget folks our goal each month is one more patron than last month you could be the person that puts us over the top by becoming a member getting access to all kinds of cool extra content as a member of patreon.com slash D T N S and if you'd like to join in live one of the perks of being a patron is getting in the discord and you can listen in on the good day internet channel live at twitch.tv slash good day internet our email addresses feedback at daily tech news show we're also live Monday through friday at 4 30 p.m. Eastern 2030 U T C find out more at daily tech news show dot com slash live back tomorrow with scott johnson talk to you then this show is part of the frogpants network get more at frogpants dot com I'm in club hopes you have enjoyed this program oh look at that prototude subscribe to twist good job party you won't regret it good night Rob good night Rob you won't regret it you'll get all sort of science science the goodness yay thank you Blair's animal corner and Justin's opinion corner oh Justin's opinions they are they are entertaining and often very insightful that's actually you know he is incredibly insightful and so many times I'm like oh I should I I wish I could get him to be quiet right now and then he's says something and I'm like oh he's totally right like damn it that was actually worth trying to talk to say it good show good show what should we call this show that we just did we have suggestions at DTNS dot showbot dot TV brains and fingers and robots oh my that's the one yes no I don't care I thought we'd get more princess bride jokes I don't care yes researchers fingering out poly dectilism I think that one that's cute I like it born ready to sign in with apple because born ready born ready you could do it Sarah motivation for your walking thank you that's motivation alone dogs dogs yeah we got we got man the six fingered man yeah five fingers to dance teaching old dog new limbs giving robots the finger oh I like it everyone calm hi good good good titles today so she got she got as a punchy I like I like giving the finger to giving robots the finger but I'm not sure if it's descriptive enough but I think it's clever we could do brains and fingers and robots oh my then I like that one sure hi all right that's gonna be brains and fingers and robots oh my hi I already voted for that title I know I'm trying to copy it haha all right and then for good day internet dental tips now show DT nuts Dr. Kiki's S. U. N. We're not here we're not here I'm I'm good with any of those they're funny Oh yeah the copy entry is off dude yep I could turn that on thanks do you care good day internet Roger yes no Roger's not here I'm here I'm here okay what was let's let's see we're not dental tips now show we're not here and Dr. Kiki's son S. U. N. I'm amazed no one made a poly dactyl peridactyl drug like cause you could have the peri old peri old dactyl list and stuff yeah to cover by half wait wait yeah okay what pair pair periodactyl poly dactyl I don't get the joke periodontal that poly dactyl I think he's trying to do pirate periodontal as a yeah that which is high just something I so it would be periodactyl that's the joke not polydactyl periodactyl okay we'll do the dental tips now dental tips now show I well I think I think I am a periodactyl because I had six wisdom teeth you had six wisdom teeth and it's not that uncommon actually did you have all taken out told me I had five taken out when people usually get them taken out like a 18 and then I had the sixth one taken out just a few years ago I had no wisdom teeth at age 18 I had my first wisdom tooth appeared at age 37 well so they weren't like on x-rays or anything they just went there they're like oh you don't have any wisdom teeth that's weird and then at age 37 my doc my doctor took yours you have a you have a wisdom tooth did you not ever get these taken out I'm like I don't even have any and so I've got one now it was just the one it was just the one and then five years later another one and then they took that one out you're late you go in for your x-rays weren't they like okay you've got a tooth growing back there it'll be coming in well that's probably what they said when once it started yeah although although yeah your gap of me not going to a dentist ah there we go that gave it some time I gave it some teeth well you know my the sixth one because it was four up top and two on the bottom and they don't my wisdom teeth I well that's I know I'm sorry I'd now you know now you know what I did find where they were but it was yeah it was the sixth one was there was something it was impacted like it was up too high it was just like it was just it was way too invasive and they were like leave it it'll never move you know you'll never know it's just going to be a tooth living in your face well it did it did move it took it's about 20 years but it finally became something where they were like huh do you want braces again because if not we got to take that tooth out because it's going to screw up everything because it's going to start pushing on the rest of your teeth when it drops no I don't have braces again no I really don't no now that you mentioned it I don't wisdom teeth actually chew on flex the idea but they they're I have all four yeah I want new sets of teeth like you know how you lose your baby teeth I that'd be great I actually have my wisdom teeth in a drawer right next to you right they're actually right I love it I think somebody I don't remember if they asked when I was younger but they did ask when I had the one taken out a few years ago which was not a fun experience but whatever they were like do you want this and I was like no I do not want that I don't want this to you don't save your teeth when they pull them out no oh I don't why would I want that that way when something happens you know to a terrible accent they'll have dental records and you can have the tooth but then how do they even know they were my teeth they're out of my mouth they're going to just anybody anybody's be anybody's teeth hey we've got this tooth do you want it it's tooth frauds in the making if you if you put it on your pillow eventually I'm sure it's going to do something I found these stuffed animals they were like weird ugly doll type things they weren't ugly they weren't the brand name ugly dolls but they were like ugly dolls and they had little baby teeth sewn into them there's a mouth on the front like real teeth oh wow they were real teeth somebody had taken them and sewn them on to these very creepy that's not at all unsettling there's there's there's there's there's there's the rest of my teeth wow do you like it teacher do you like the teeth the goodness the teeth that didn't exist yeah so we and here they are and you're and you're in your desk drawer I wonder where they where they can be accessed easily see and then and then at at at Halloween I can put it back in just there were I think I think actually my parents did save my teeth for a while I don't know if that is still around but I I think that that was a thing that I have I don't know that was something that they saved wonder what like if I could make a necklace the tooth fairy has all of eyes Oh you could make a necklace whether or not it's a cool necklace depends on your craft I think that was more what I was I don't know these have you not creeped out enough people in your life because that's a fast way to do it Oh here's my my mom texting me she's going to have a tooth answer she's like I have all your teeth all your teeth I still have your baby teeth Oh well well all right there we have it that's how parents control you don't you realize that oh are those sure teeth no those are my own baby teeth I thought myself I should make a tooth necklace yeah I didn't realize I even had this option like kind of drill a hole and make a kind of fun like puka shell type look but their teeth yeah as their one of my teeth these yeah every tooth was lost in the in the state of I don't know how would you lose your tooth in growth age sugar here Oh this is it Oh I found the picture I can here I'm going to can I screen share no can you email it to me and I'll send I'll put it up yeah it's just the


Then we can go down here and say we've got the inventory item so we're just going to do the same type of thing and and there we have it. So what's this going to do? Well it's a refund receipt so we're actually going to be it's kind of like a check form it's going to be decreasing the checking account and it's going to be for the full amount the 1080 the other side is going to go to reversing you know in essence the invoice transaction


Today, my special guest is Michael Heiser, and we're discussing his new book, The Bible Unfiltered, approaching Scripture on its own terms, and that's published by my good friends over at Lex & Press. Mike, welcome back to the show. Thank you for having me. First things first, I'm curious, Mike, to find out where you got the ideas for the different articles that we see in this book. Are these the sorts of questions you encounter when you're out speaking, or when you're interacting with people on social media, or are these just the kinds of things you think about on a regular basis? You know, it's a little bit of all of that. I'd like to say they all come from my point of little head, but they don't. There are things that come up in conversation, you know, in Q&A. But there's a good bit that I just sort of think about a lot. There are some things that I drew on. With Unseen Realm, I have this in several of the footnotes. There's a mention of a website called moreunseenrealm.com. And one of the tabs for that is what's next. You know, so I actually draw little items from that. Occasionally things that I would like to cover down the road in a follow-up book to Unseen Realm. So the ideas, the kernels for the ideas, you know, pop up here and there really by virtue of all of those things you mentioned. Well, and if anybody's been following me for the last several years, it should come as no surprise that I'm a big fan of your books. And I often find your books to be a breath of fresh air. But I suspect with the ground you cover in this book, especially that not all readers are going to react as favorably to some of what you cover here, especially with what you cover in the first part of this book. What do you think are some of those things that can get in the way of people receiving what you have to say when it comes to how we engage with scripture on its own terms? To just be blunt about it, sometimes we just need to get out of our own way. We, you know, ourselves and our traditions and sort of what we've the ways we've been taught to think in church really get in the way of understanding scripture on its own terms. So that when you just sort of let that fly, that can be uncomfortable for some people. But hopefully people realize because of where I work, you know, at Faithlife, LaGrosse Bible Software and sort of, you know, the track record. Now, I'm not the enemy to what they're trying to do. I'm one of, you know, one of the tribe. I'm sympathetic, you know, to the effort, but we really have to be honest that sometimes we just need to get out of our own way. And with context, you know, the whole sort of underlying premise of the Bible unfiltered, you know, again, is treating scripture on its own terms. We just don't consciously realize how much we impose on scripture in terms of context, you know, that we unconsciously and reflexively filter scripture through our own traditions, what goes on in the four walls of our own church, the things we're just used to that we kind of assume. Well, not only do we assume that any really intelligent Christian would think this way, you know, about this particular thing that we have that problem.  Well, OK, you know, yeah, they're just like us in terms of the object of their faith, but they're not anything like us. When it comes to a whole host of other things and God, you know, providentially picked them in the time and the place and the context that they were part of and prompted them to produce this thing we call the Bible. And their world is just dramatically different the way they think the patterns of their thought, the way they think about reality. It's just dramatically different than us. And so that's really the big thing. There's a chapter in the book called Let the Bible Be What It Is. And again, that is the best piece of advice I can give people. Realize the Bible is an ancient, Mediterranean centered document produced by people anywhere from the second millennium B.C. on into the first century AD. It is not the product of modern thinking. God, of course, isn't surprised by that because he picked the people and he did at the time he did. And if we just sort of remember that and we don't make the Bible address questions that we have as moderns, but we let the Bible address the questions and the topics that God prompted the writers to address, we would be able to shift a little bit in our thinking. We would be able to treat the Bible for what it is and not what it isn't because when you make the Bible speak to issues that the writers never had in mind, some of those are just beyond where they're at as human beings. If we make the Bible directly teach as opposed to just applying things in Scripture, I mean, that we certainly can do. But when we make the Bible directly teach on topics that are modern, that are just well after their time period and their setting, their worldview, their whole cultural framework, then what we're doing is we're imposing our own context on the Bible. We're making it speak to things that it was never intended to speak. And we can get really misled in interpretation that way. We can make the biblical writers turn out to be saying things they just never would have intended to say. And then we miss the things they did intend to say if we don't try to think like they thought. And so that's sort of the fundamental premise of the book. Well, that's helpful. I won't ask you any more questions related to that section. If people want to know more, they just have to read that first part of the book. The second part of the book, you take a look at a number of different accounts from the Old Testament. So I'd love to have you just dig into a few of those with me and just help give the listeners a flavor of what they're going to encounter in the book. We'd love to have you comment on Samuel's ghost and Saul's judgment. Now, this was a story from first Samuel that I always wanted to see a flannel graph for and we never did have one quite for this. During my Sunday school days, it would have been interesting, certainly to have that talk to us about that. What are some of the things that work there that we maybe don't expect if we just take that at face value? It's actually an important passage in a number of respects. I mean, there's some real significant theology that comes out of this.  And he's run all of the mediums, the people who contact the dead and practice other, you know, forbidden practices. He's run them out of the land. But somehow when God won't talk to him, when God won't answer his prayers, he knows where to find one of them. And he does the medium at Endor. Some translations have the witch of Endor. But she's described as the mistress, the Balaat, the mistress of the Ove. And Ove, an Ove-Ode, is the plural in Hebrew, were the spirits of the departed dead, specifically the human dead. So Saul knows where to contact one of them. And again, we know the story. I want to talk to Samuel and we're not told what she does in the passage, but whatever she does produces a dramatic result and it scares her. She gets freaked out by the fact that Samuel is on the scene.  And she says, I see an Elohim or I see Elohim coming up out of the ground. And Saul says, what does he singular? What does he look like? And then she describes him and, you know, describes how we've come to know Samuel. And then he and Saul have a conversation. And the content of the conversation is stuff that Samuel had said earlier in scripture and things that Samuel would know and so on and so forth. Well, there are a number of things here that are really interesting. Elohim, I see an Elohim coming up out of the ground. You know, that's the term that is typically used in scripture for God or gods, you know, if it's plural in context. And that's the term that she uses of Samuel and the biblical writers use of Samuel. Now, in the broader ancient world, that's not unusual because other texts, Canaanite literature, Ugaritic literature, which is part of the Canaanites culture, they use this term to describe the departed human dead. And they're not gods in the sense of the God of Israel. They're gods in the sense of spirit beings. And I address the meaning of Elohim and unseen realm a lot. So we don't have polytheism here. This is just a term, Elohim, that has nothing to do with a specific set of unique attributes the way we're sort of used to thinking about the letters G, O, and D. Biblical writers did not think that way about Elohim. And this is one of the great proof texts for it. They're not saying, Hey, our departed loved ones are on a on an attribute par with the God of Israel.  And nobody believes that. And the biblical writers certainly never talk in those terms. But the Elohim, that term means a spirit being, a real spirit being. And here we have Samuel brought up from the dead, where his spirit anyway, brought back into conversation with the living is probably a better way to say it. And they have a conversation. What it means, especially if given her terminology, the mistress of the Ove, if you go over to Isaiah 19, three Ove is used in parallel with three other terms connected with the dead in the afterlife. And so this is a passage where you can actually look at and say, the biblical writers believed in this this idea that the way we express it now is ghosts. They believe that the spirits of the human dead went on living. There was no like annihilation or cessation or soul sleep or something like that. They went on living in the afterlife. And again, these are familiar ideas to us as Christians. We just were not used to seeing them and put in these terms in this kind of scene in first Samuel 28. But the Bible, especially the Old Testament, has really a fairly well developed theology, if you will, of ghosts, of afterlife spirits. And you say, well, why would God let Samuel go visit Saul? Why would God allow this whole scene, this whole episode to happen? Because elsewhere in scripture, contact with the dead is forbidden. And that's true. God's not endorsing what the woman typically does. But the point is that in this scene, we get a glimpse of God's allowance for this kind of thing, specifically because he is the conduit for the information. That's really the rationale behind a lot of the commands against divination. You go back to Deuteronomy, this whole list of things that people were not supposed to do. And the laws of God are there because God wants to prohibit this sort of thing. He's not in the business of prohibiting things that people can't do. Like thou shalt not fly. OK, Lord, I got that one down. You know, we're never going to violate that command. I mean, these kind of commands were given because these things could be done because there's an active, animate, vibrant, spiritual world, both good and evil. And the commands are given in Deuteronomy to prohibit, to circumscribe where you get information from the other side. God wanted his people to only get it through the means that he has chosen or him through me, you know, the high priest, the ephod, whatever, the prophet. And you weren't supposed to get it from any other means, because when you do these things, the whole point of the commands in Deuteronomy is that you don't know what you're going to get. You can't control this turf. This is not your world. It's the realm of the divine and not the realm of the human. And you have prophets do things out of Deuteronomy 18 that these things that are condemned and God doesn't condemn them in other contexts. And the reason is he is in control of the encounter. He is the source of information. He's not going to mislead people. But at the same time, he says, don't mess with this because you don't know what you're going to get. So there's actually some really important theology here about our relationship to the spiritual world. This notion of, you know, again, you have you have a scriptural passage and this isn't the only one that connects to the whole notion of ghosts. You know, like, does the Bible speak to that in any way? It does. And this is one passage that you can go to for that. But in its own context, this wouldn't have surprised anybody in ancient Israel, and they would have gotten the message clearly that God is in control of this event. And so we can trust the information. Whereas if we're doing this on our own and God is divorced from the process, we shouldn't be doing that. Well, next, let's transition into everybody's favorite revenge proverb. Proverbs 25, 22. How can we heat burning coals on the head of our enemy? I think a lot of people read that and they're not really sure what to do with it. So give us some of the additional context and background that helps us make sense of that. There's two ways to look at the context of this. One is to actually look at the preceding verse. And that's typically what people think about context. And in this case, that's good advice. The verse that we have in mind is Proverbs 25, 22.  The Lord will reward you and you're right. We tend to think of that as an endorsement of retaliation.  And if he's thirsty, give him water to drink for you.  That's 21 and 22 read together.  That's painful. Burning coals are painful. So we're supposed to throw them at people and, you know, put them on their head and punish them and retaliate. No, that verse, because it dovetails, you know, grammatically and structurally with the one that precedes is not an endorsement of retaliation. Again, right before it says, if your enemy is hungry, give him bread. If he's thirsty, give him water for you will heat burning coals on his head. It's not an endorsement of retaliation. It's actually a rebuttal to retaliation. And the idea is that you do good to your enemy. And in so doing, they can become ashamed and then they can reconsider what they're doing to you. So you don't do tit for tat. You don't escalate the situation. You treat your enemy with kindness. It actually discourages us from seizing opportunities to harm people. And that's a common ethic elsewhere in the Old Testament. You know, as far as the other part of the context is, what would the metaphor have meant? And scholars disagree on this.  So that might be in view. Others would say that that the metaphor of burning coals, I mean, think about it, we'll just go through the passage again. If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat. If he's thirsty, give him water to drink for, you know, the result that you will heat burning coals on his head, you'll make him ashamed. That idea, if that's the case, and I think there's a really good case to be made, that that's the way we should look at this. Then you do have other ancient Near Eastern metaphors and these sort of cultural attributions where that act either demonstrates shame or the idea of burning is used metaphorically to sort of speak of an inward burning of shame. So there's a metaphor here. There's the preceding verse, you know, preceding, you know, part of the passage for context. And then there are some cultural customs that really, I think, clarify for us. Again, this is not about escalating a bad relationship. It's about doing good to your enemy so that your enemy will reconsider what they're doing to you because it just shames them. The way you're treating them makes them ashamed of the way that they're treating you. Well, that seems a lot better in that context. So thank you for correcting me and my love of that favorite revenge proverb. Well, it's a little hard for me to believe that you're like pulling that thing out of the holster all the time.   I'll show you. Yeah. Yep. Yep. You know, I hope my kids aren't going to be too warped when they come out of the other end of this parenthood journey with me. We'll see. Time will tell. Let's jump forward to part three of the book. That's where you look at some various accounts from the New Testament. So one that kind of caught my eye was demon swine and cosmic geography or looking at Mark five there. Again, another biblical account that I would have loved to have had a flannel graph for in my Sunday school days. But again, I was denied this one as well with what you shared on this one. I was really amazed at how much more there is actually going on there. And we often get stuck in the elements of the story and how it's unfolding and the demons going into the swine and all that. But there's a whole lot more at play there. So tell us about that for this one. It really helps if people are familiar with, again, what I call an unseen realm, the Deuteronomy 32 worldview. You know, I don't want to say, hey, go read Unseen Realm and then you'll understand this one. But there's a little bit to be said for that. I mean, they could use the Faith Life Study Bible and get what the Deuteronomy 32 worldview is, that God disinherited the nations, divorced himself from them and assigned them to lesser gods as a punishment. And then that's the Old Testament rationale for why, how we get from God relating to everybody, humanity and mass, both before and after the flood, to this situation when you get to the patriarchal period where people have other gods. Well, this is the explanation. This is the backdrop for it. Well, that worldview seeps into the New Testament because, hey, that's the New Testament, guess what, is attached to the Old Testament in lots of ways. And this is actually a really telling instance. Now, this story is familiar and scholars, especially if they're a New Testament, they're never thinking about the Old Testament context for this, unfortunately. They're looking at it and saying, oh, well, this is how the Gospel writers describe mental illness. And there are some passages that you could try to make that correlation. But this one's really clear. This is an exorcism. OK, there are demons inside this person. So we're not just dealing with mental illness here. Some will say it's political liberation because of the name given to the group of demons, Legion, that this is sort of a political commentary on the Romans that Jesus is going to cast the Romans out like he cast out the spiritual legions. He's going to cast out the Roman legions. Well, again, there's just more going on to this than that. There's a lot of cosmic geographical symbolism here. Jesus goes into Gentile territory. That's the first thing that's important to notice. He's doing a lot in Jewish territory. He goes into the country of the garrisons, which historically at this time is really under Gentile control. And one of the sort of obvious proofs for that is they're raising a swine here. That's not something you'd normally do in Jewish territory because of the prohibition against pork and swine. So he goes into the garrison territory, which is Gentile territory. And then we have this encounter. And Legion asks, what do you have to do with me? Again, which is familiar language, you have similar language and similar accounts in other Gospels. And the real key is to compare some of those episodes with this one specifically here, because elsewhere, like in Mark 124, he goes into a Jewish part of Galilee. And in that passage, the unclean spirits address Jesus as Jesus of Nazareth. But in this passage in Mark 5, when Legion says, hey, what do you have to do with me? He addresses Jesus as the Son of the Most High. And that language is important because that is the title used in Deuteronomy 32, 8, 9 about the division of the nations. The title Most High reflects an Old Testament theology of cosmic geography, because this is where that phrase shows up a lot. It shows up in Psalm 82, which is about the Psalmist crying out that God would take back the nations at the end of Psalm 82. Psalm 82 is a very famous divine counsel, again, spiritual warfare passage and various other places. But when Legion does this and when it's recorded faithfully with this kind of language, what it telegraphs is that Jesus, by going into this place and having this power encounter with Legion and Legion recognizing who he is, the message is, look, Jesus is not just here to get rid of the Romans and restore the physical national kingdom or country of Israel. Because that was the Jewish expectation of Messiah. It's all about us. It's all about restoring our political independence and getting rid of the Romans and all that. What he's saying here is, look, it's bigger than that. Yes, this is God's turf, this thing we call Israel. But by going into Gentile territory and doing the same thing and then having that encounter recognized and connected back to Deuteronomy 32.8, this is also Jesus telegraphing that I am also the Messiah, the owner, the rightful heir of all the nations, including the ones that were disinherited back at the Babel event.  I am here for everything. I have sovereignty and dominion over every nation, everything. It's a very sort of proleptic way for the gospel writers and Jesus himself to do this particular thing and make it clear, at least to the people who are thinking about their Old Testament, that this guy, Jesus of Nazareth, is the promised seed, not just to the nation of Israel, but he is the promised seed to bring the whole world back into a family relationship with the most high, the God of Israel and the God of every nation. So there's a lot of sort of just, you know, running under the surface here to this incident. Well, let's jump a little bit further in the New Testament to James 117. This is the verse that talks about the father of lights. I see people use this verse from time to time and they try to apply it sometimes in some very odd ways. I would love to have you just unpack how you take a look at this in the book. I thought that was very helpful because I think people are often using this verse in ways that maybe wasn't intended. Yeah, just as James 117, we might as well just read it, reading ESV, every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Again, this phrase only occurs here in scripture. There are other references to God and light in different passages, but the thing to really recognize here is that Father of lights fundamentally points to God's role as the creator of the lights, the celestial objects, the stars, you know, so on and so forth. And again, that's really familiar from Genesis. But there's a little bit more to it. It's not just a statement of creation. We have to realize how did the ancient people perceive these lights? How did they think about them? Obviously, the most translatable aspect of this to us is that, well, the celestial bodies mark seasons in the passage of time. And that's why they were created back in Genesis one. And that's true. Therefore, they're associated with change. OK, they do change. They move there in different positions and so on and so forth. The word that James uses here that's translated change in our English translations is elsewhere used in Greek material to describe the movement and positioning of stars. And therefore, seasonal changes, which have an effect on the land, the growing seasons and all that kind of stuff. So it's a big deal. And people would understand the lights change. But of course, their father, the father of lights, does not. There's no variation in him. He is fixed. He is permanent. So it's kind of a profound point on that level. The celestial bodies change and vary, but the father does not. It's good theology. But there's more to it than that because people thought of the lights in the ancient world as heavenly beings, the stars of God, Job 38, 7. That's a phrase used to describe the sons of God against spiritual beings in God's heavenly host. And so the statement actually asserts the God of the Bible, his superiority to them. They are inferior. He is superior. He's the one who created them. He's the father of lights. OK, he's the one who brought them into existence and not the other way around. He is uncreated. They are created. So we have the father of lights being a reference to the lone creator, the uncreated creator, the superiority of the father, that creator to not only just the physical things that we associate with light and lights, but also every other spirit being, again, this is just really significant theology, not only for the ancient world, but for also for us. It asserts the omnipotence, the sovereign team, the lordship of the father over every spiritual power, not only that, but he is invariable. He's unchanging what he is, what we know of his nature and character and his ability, his attributes will never change. He will be the same and they are not because they're lesser. Well, thank you for that. I hope all of you listening have enjoyed some of the directions we've gone with just having Mike unpack a little bit from four of the chapters that you'll encounter in the book. There's a lot of chapters in the book. What I like about it, especially those they're short. I mean, you could read a lot of them in just a few minutes and you're going to learn a lot of new things. So it'll change your perspectives. If you enjoyed what you've heard so far, be sure to pick up the book. I think you'll get some gems there. You might be made a little uncomfortable at times, but it might be good. Maybe you're being stretched a little bit to think outside of your box.  I actually told somebody in church, you know, not too long ago, who I overheard in conversations saying, well, Mike, believe some kind of strange things. And I said, I'm as scary as the text is. You don't need to be afraid of your Bible. It's just the Bible. You'll be OK. Well, it's good to know that you're as scary as the Bible allows you to be, Mike. I wouldn't be doing a service to listeners if I didn't ask Mike, do you have any new books in the works? I know you're always working on a number of different things, but any things in the more immediate horizon we should be aware of book-wise. Those who follow my work will know that probably a year ago, I self published three books that I called the 60 Second Scholar Series. They were three books, a hundred readings each that you could read in a minute. Those were picked up by Zondervan and they're going to be republished in May. So that's not too far from now. They were each trimmed to 80, but the content of what's in there is basically the same. I mean, I would say almost all the same, except for a good editorial pass on them. So that's coming down the pike in May. And then Lexham, I also just handed in a manuscript for a book about angels, just about angels. It's not about demons. I'm actually working on on that as we speak, sort of a companion book, but there'll be a book about angels and a separate one about demons sometime, I think, in 2018. But we don't have dates for those yet. And for the angel book and the demon book, if you had to contrast that between the unseen realm and supernatural as far as academic level, like, where will these new books fall? I would say that they're going to be pitched closer to unseen realm than supernatural. So somewhere in between, but kind of like, you know, unseen realm was. And it unseen realm is not a book just about angels and demons. I mean, those two subjects factor in to that. But unseen realm is really about the unfolding of the supernatural epic God salvation plan with an eye toward how the invisible realm intersects with our realm and how one is a template of the other. But these two books sort of drill down specifically on one angels, the other one demons. There'll be parts of the book that answer specific questions about and frankly, you know, some myths about angels and demons that are kind of familiar currency within the Christian world. But it's basically a drill down biblical theology of each of those things, but also trying to cover ground that really deals with questions people wonder about both of them. I know because you just don't have enough things to do. You're also producing other types of media. You've got some podcasts that you do. I see a lot more from you on Facebook Live. So in addition to your books, what are some of the other types of content people can connect with you on? I see you doing a lot of different things these days. Yeah, the big one is the Naked Bible podcast. We're approaching our 200th episode. You could just go to Naked Bible podcast dot com. You could also find it by using my home page, d r m s h dot com d r m s h dot com.  But we discuss them from the perspective of peer reviewed science and peer reviewed scholarship on those topics. And it, believe it or not, anything that you could sort of put in that bucket. There's actually serious research published out there that a lot of people never find they never know that it even exists because they're just looking on the Internet. They're using Google, you know, to to get information about these different things. But myself and three or four other co hosts were all Christians. We discuss, again, paranormal subjects and we stick to peer reviewed research on them. And it's a fun podcast. We do maybe one every eight or ten weeks. So, you know, six, seven episodes a year, but Naked Bible podcast is every week. Well, and as we do with every episode, I'll be sure to include links to Mike's different podcasts, his website, places you can buy the Bible unfiltered. So if you're listening to this after the interview is done, head over to www.SeanTabit.com. You can search for Michael Heiser. You'll be able to find this interview and our previous interviews and just click on through to any of the additional resources or information that might be of interest to you. It's time to bring this episode of the Sean Tabits show to a close. Many thanks for being a part of my conversation with Michael Heiser. Once again, our book today was the Bible unfiltered approaching scripture on its own terms. You can find out more about Mike and his many great books and resources at his website, which once again, that's at drmsh.com. Mike, I just want to say thanks so much for sharing with us today. It's always an honor and a pleasure to speak with you, my friend. Thank you. Thanks for having me on and look forward to actually connecting with you face to face at some point in the future again. And that's all for this episode of the Sean Tabit show.


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