I call on Angus Robertson to speak to and move the motion up to 15 minutes, Cabinet Secretary. Presiding Officer, many thanks. I welcome the opportunity to open this important debate on Scotland's population. Scotland is its people, they are our most important resource. People deliver, our public services teach the next generation, build our communities, drive innovation. We are each a part of Scotland's population. A growing population is vital for a growing economy. Population growth has been the most significant driver of economic growth in both Scotland and the UK in recent years. As the fiscal commission noted in their recent report, I quote, population size and structure directly affects economic growth and also Scottish Government finances through the effects on revenue and spending. Scotland's population has been shaped by our history of migration in times past as a nation of out migration where people left Scotland to make a future elsewhere and to contribute to shaping those nations. Between 1825 and 1938, over 2.3 million people left Scotland to move overseas. Immigration was such a strong thread in our population history that in 1935, Edward Muir could write of his concern that Scotland was gradually being emptied off its population. Since the turn of this century, that narrative has shifted and instead we become a nation of in migration. Freedom of movement was a key driver of that change yet it has also been driven by people from the rest of the UK who've chosen to make their homes in Scotland. More people are moving to Scotland from the rest of the UK than move in the opposite direction and more people move to Scotland from out with the UK than leave. Scotland is an attractive destination. People want to come here to build their future. Scotland's population growth in recent years has been driven entirely by migration yet national records of Scotland are now projecting that Scotland's population will actually start to fall from around 2028 onwards that almost half of our 32 local authorities will decline in population over the next decade. By 2045, the proportion of children will have fallen by 22 per cent and the Scottish Fiscal Commission is projecting a 16 per cent fall in Scotland's population between 2022 and 2072. I'm very grateful for the minister for giving me. Indeed, I mean he's setting out some very fundamental drivers here but within that would you acknowledge that what's interesting is that migration, inward migration is a bigger contribution to our population growth than any other part of the UK and that's partly due to the lower birth rate and that you have to look at both sides of the equation. I'm just wondering if you'd agree with that point. I agree wholeheartedly. Issues related to the birth rate have been a core part of the deliberations of the Scottish Government and partners when dealing with this population challenge and we'd like to take the opportunity with the first intervention from members from other parts of the chamber and just stress the point that the scale of challenge that we are facing with population in decades to come is immense and I really look forward to and hope we can have a constructive working relationship not with standing differences that we may have on whole series of different subjects because I think it behoves us to work for the interests of the communities that we represent and in this case, from what we're discussing specifically today, rural parts of Scotland but not just the rest of the country as a whole because we really need to garner the best ideas from all political parts of the mainstream spectrum to deal with the challenge that we're facing. Returning, Presiding Officer, to my introductory remarks. The history of immigration for Scotland has implications. As a nation, we lost future generations. Communities lost not just the individuals who left but their children and their grandchildren. There's a legacy to immigration and it's a legacy that is felt most keenly in our rural communities. Scotland has distinct needs. In fact, our situation is unique within the UK. We are the only country within the United Kingdom where the population is projected to fall by 2045. We need tailored solutions that meet those needs yet the UK Government's focus is on restricting migration and putting barriers in place for those who might seek to come here to build a new life. I'd like to thank the cabinet secretary for giving way. I'm just trying to reflect on the point he made about the population decline in Scotland being far greater than the rest of the UK. Has he got any idea why that may be? Is there anything to do with the higher taxes that people might have to pay in Scotland, for example? Cabinet secretary? No, I don't, but I would take the opportunity to invite him and other members to read the document that we're debating today and to reflect on the fact that we are trying to approach the challenge in partnership with representatives of local government from different parts of the country and representatives from different parts of Scottish society. I genuinely welcome a serious attempt to take part in that debate from the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party as well. Last year, the Government published Scotland's first population strategy, a strategy that was endorsed by the Convention of Scottish Local Authority, and sets out the actions that we will look to take at a local and a national level to address our population challenges. Those were set out against four pillars—family friendly, healthy living, attracting and welcoming people to Scotland and population balance. I chair a cross-cutting ministerial population task force, which is looking across Scottish Government to identify where policies need strengthened and what new actions we need to take. Over the past year, my colleagues and I on the task force have developed a new talent attraction and migration service, which will be launched in 2023 to support both Scottish employers to recruit and individuals who want to come to Scotland. We've committed to publishing and addressing a deep population action plan, working with communities facing the most acute challenges around population retention. Refresh the independent expert advisory group on migration and population, which continues to provide expert advice as it has done since 2018. Commissioned new research, looking at attitudes to family size and how this has changed over time, and look to learn from work that other nations have taken to address similar demographic challenges. Scottish Government ministers have continued to reflect our demographic challenges within their own portfolios, be that housing to 2040, the fourth national planning framework on the national island's plan. Yet, despite this work, there are crucial levers that are not within the control of Scottish ministers, most notably immigration. Scotland's population is not a monolith. From Edinburgh to the Orkney Islands, from the borders to Argyllin bute, each and every local authority feels our demographic challenge differently. Some local authorities are experiencing rapid population growth, while others are experiencing population decline. Rapid population growth and depopulation both bring challenges and we're committed to working with partners to support population balance. I want to focus today on the specific challenges facing our rural communities. Presiding officer, let me be clear that there is no easy fix to local population challenges, such as depopulation. That's why we're working collaboratively with both the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and local authorities in general, and through structures such as the Convention of the Highlands and Islands and the Convention of the South of Scotland, to make sure that we have a partnership approach that best addresses our population challenges. However, migration is a crucial part of that approach. Yet, current UK Government immigration policy does not reflect the needs of Scotland's rural communities. Scotland needs working-age people to settle here in the long term and to raise families here. Our rural communities want to attract families who will make their homes here, but the UK Government's family migration policy stops people from bringing their families here. It limits the family reunification rights of UK citizens. The Migration Policy Index 2020 assessed the UK immigration system as one of the least family-friendly migration systems. That UK immigration system was assessed as the second worst of all of the immigration systems that it reviewed in terms of family reunification policies. The financial threshold rules are a significant barrier, not just for those seeking to migrate to Scotland but also for UK citizens. Analysis by the Scottish Government shows that almost 50 per cent of the Scottish population would fail to meet the financial threshold to allow them to bring a spouse and two children into the country through a family migration route. Forcing people to choose between their family and living in their home country. Those rules do not meet Scotland's needs and do not reflect our values. On a personal level, as a child of someone who emigrated to this country, I would not be standing in this chamber today if the current UK Government immigration rules had been in place then. Presiding Officer, I wonder how many others within this chamber and across Scotland would similarly have been prevented from building a future here. Those rules do not support the needs of our rural communities. Presiding Officer, there is a clear evidence that the current UK immigration system is particularly poor at meeting the needs of our rural communities. That is not just the assessment of the Scottish Government, it is the assessment of the UK Government's own Migration Advisory Committee, which in its 2019 report stated that the current migration system is not very effective in dealing with a particular problem's remote communities experience. The solution proposed by the Migration Advisory Committee and accepted by Saja Javid and the then Home Secretary was to pilot a scheme that facilitated migration to those areas, then monitor what happens over several years and evaluate the outcomes. An evidence-based approach to policymaking, sadly such an approach did not survive a change in the Home Secretary. However, this Government made a commitment to progress the rural visa pilot proposal. We wrote to the UK Government offering to work collaboratively with them to deliver the Migration Advisory Committee recommendation. In the absence of engagement from the UK Government, we have worked with 12 rural and island local authorities and with rural employers as well as academic experts to develop an evidence-based practical proposal which could be delivered today. The UK immigration system issues visas to people at the moment, which tie them to a specific job with a specified employer, to a specific university course at an identified university, so the notion that a rural visa is inoperable within the current immigration system is simply untrue. The fact that the UK Government's own expert advisory group recommended such a visa is evidence of the fact that such a system could be made to work. Our proposal, which has been led by my colleagues, the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and Islands and the Minister for Europe, Culture and International Development, is based on international evidence of what works. It builds on analysis from the independent expert advisory group on migration and population. It also uses elements from Canadian and Australian immigration systems to show how a Scottish rural community immigration pilot can be delivered through a partnership approach. The pilot would present a distinctly new, community-driven and employer-based migration route. It would offer a world-leading approach to spread the benefits of immigration to our rural communities. Above all, as has been done successfully in Canada, it would be tailored to meet the economic and societal needs of specified communities in Scotland. The proposal included today sets out how that would be delivered in partnership between the UK Government, the Scottish Government, local authorities, employers and communities. In conclusion, it is a proposal that has been jointly developed by the Scottish Government, local authorities and partners, to quote from just one of those partners, Councillor Paul Steele, the leader of Corly Nile and Ninshire, that the Scottish Government rural community immigration pilot offers a thoughtful, safe, well-founded option as to how new labour can be streamed to island and rural communities to help to respond to those. As such, I am highly supportive of the proposed pilot. Our ask of the UK Government is clear. If you mean what you say when you suggest that your aim is to deliver an immigration system that works for all of the UK, then that immigration system has to work for Scotland. It has to work for our rural communities. With those comments, I conclude, Presiding Officer, and we will listen very closely to what colleagues say from across this chamber, because I am keen as we try and build partnership with the UK Government to deliver this pilot, I think that working with a unified approach would make that proposal all the stronger. I will listen closely to what we hear from the front benches of other parties and hope that we can work in partnership over the months ahead. Thank you very much. Thank you Presiding Officer, and can I duly move the amendment in my name. The Scottish Conservatives welcome the opportunity to debate the serious and important issue of Scotland's population. It's no exaggeration to state that we face significant demographic challenges. Countries across Europe are experiencing the same decline in their working age populations, largely as a result of fewer births and people living for longer. There are other reasons, of course, and it is clear that they are multifaceted, and no single government can be held fully responsible for the position we are currently in. Much of that predates not only the Brexit vote, but predates devolution, in fact. There have been some clear policy failures, which have partly contributed to our own situation in Scotland, and I will focus on that later on in my remarks. However, I will be to it, Mr Johnson. I wonder if I might ask the member to just reflect briefly, because while he is right that this is a challenge and there are potentially failures, it's also something that comes from some successes in which, in terms of prolonging life and giving people control over their own fertility. I wonder if the member might reflect on those points as well. Absolutely. I wasn't seeking to make any judgment on either the decisions that people make in terms of having children or, in fact, in terms of their general health and allowing people to live longer. Of course not, but it's an issue with many causes and many symptoms, in fact. However, there are things that I would suggest that the Scottish Government can do to improve things, both in the short term and the long term. I welcome the mostly constructive approach of the Cabinet Secretary in his opening remarks, much of what he has said and what the motion states does focus solely on the issue of migration. The Scottish Conservatives recognise that is clearly part of the issue that Scotland faces, but the reasons why we have such significant populations issues runs much deeper than just one single issue of migration. Population growth, all that thereof, is an issue with many causes and it goes much wider than simply the issue of migration. That's why we believe there must be a sharp focus on identifying new ways, new approaches of resolving our population crisis. The Scottish Government also appears to agree with this and their 2021 report, A Scotland for the Future Opportunities and Challenges of Scotland's changing population, recommended 36 action points and it is a very thorough report which forms the basis of a lot of what I'm going to say. It explains the problems we face and it also recognises and attempts to address them. The report is opened by the former Cabinet Secretary, Fiona Hyslop, and she states at the beginning of this report that while the population of Scotland as a whole has grown and is projected to grow in the 2020s and 2030s, this masks a set of real and very significant demographic challenges. She goes on to say there are three things which will impact Scotland demographically, mortality, fertility and migration. So looking at those in turn, the issue of mortality is very concerning as recent data published by the NRS shows. That states that Scotland has the lowest life expectancy of all UK countries and that life expectancy for men and women has declined between the period 2018 to 2021. While the NRS attributes that to the pandemic as being a key reason for that reduction, the same could be said of all countries who have experienced the pandemic. So it's particularly concerning that this has impacted Scotland so profoundly. On fertility, that also is discussed at length. Scotland has the lowest total fertility rate of all UK nations and has been in gradual decline since the mid 2000s. According to the report, Scotland's total fertility rate has fallen from 2.5 in 1971 to a record lower 1.37 in 2019. And concerningly, early evidence from several European countries including the UK suggests the pandemic has already had another significant impact on people's plans to have children. From talking about children, can I also talk about our elderly? While innovative policies are undoubtedly needed to address the work for shortfalls among the working age population, we can't forget about older workers. Age Scotland note that by 2045, almost 50% of the Scottish population will be over 50. And the number of people aged over 65 is projected to grow by a third. And their right to say surely that the Scottish government should send a message that older workers are a valuable asset to business, the economy and the country and the Scottish Conservatives wholeheartedly agree. Let me turn now to migration because as I've said we recognise this is an area of policy with a part to play. Now we remain of the view that immigration is a reserved matter, it should remain as such and a UK wide immigration system is intrinsic to the proper functioning of the economy. But we have always believed that we need to target, can I just make a bit of progress, we have always believed that we need to target migration to sectors of the economy in Scotland with labour shortages. In our 2019 general election manifesto the Scottish Conservatives said that we would create bespoke visa schemes for new migrants who will fill shortages in our public services, build the companies and innovations of the future and benefit Britain for years to come and that remains our view. And as I've noted over the weekend media report suggested that the new prime minister is looking at this too. Now the UK government has taken action in the past in respect of seasonal agricultural workers, in respect of HGV drivers. I hope that that response, that kind of ad hoc response continues and more broadly is seen to enhance Scottish economic growth. Thank you very much for taking that intervention. Would the member accept the fact that the requirement for seasonal agricultural workers exceeds 75,000 between 75,000 and 90,000? The current extension of the scheme is only looking to bring in 40,000 and that Scotland is already plowing in much needed fruit and vegetables because they can't get it harvested because of the lack of labour. I acknowledge the problem but I do think it's worth noting that the UK government took action in 2018 to do that and that action continues but can I turn to his government, can I turn to the Scottish government which indicated in its national strategy for economic transformation that it wanted to target inward migration from the rest of the UK and the Scottish government's report went on to state that a 25% increase in people relocating from the rest of the UK to Scotland would double net migration and add 100,000 people to Scotland's labour pool over the course of this strategy. I would be interested to hear if that remains in the Scottish government's position but we also have to ask a very key question and that is why is Scotland less attractive to economic migrants coming from the rest of the world than other parts of the UK and that question needs answering. Scotland has consistently taken below its population share of migrants compared to the rest of the UK and that is a problem that we have to solve. Now can I briefly talk about the rural visa pilot presiding off so I think the clock might have not quite be adequately recorded in my time but no doubt you will indicate when my time is up. Now it's premature for us to support this specific measure today given it is only just been published but let me make these commitments to the cabinet secretary. We will consider its contents in full. We note the genesis of this idea was in 2019 and we acknowledge the role of the UK government's advisors, the Mac committee and the comments of the then home secretary. We will communicate in short order with colleagues in the UK government including the home secretary about this scheme and we agree with the broad thrust of what this pilot scheme seeks to achieve because urgent action has to be taken to tackle depopulation in our rural and island communities. According to the national population strategy 8 out of 32 local authority areas experienced depopulation, the greatest declines in our garland butte in the Clyde in the western isles. Now I have recently visited a fish and shellfish processing firm in Barrow in the western isles and they told me about the challenges they face in recruiting locally. So the causes of rural and island population are undoubtedly varied and we've discussed them at length. Many of the barriers to growing our rural and island population have largely come about as a result of domestic policy failures and here I do turn to be more critical.  That cannot be ignored. Housing is particularly important with many rural areas suffering from a lack of affordable housing and rectifying that has to be a focus when we are simultaneously trying to encourage migrants to live in rural areas. But we do point to the fact that the SNP government has only spent about half of its rural housing fund and its island's housing fund since they were made available in 2016. We know about the failures to deliver 100% superfast broadband and we know about the ongoing ferry crisis which is causing misery for our island communities. The only way that we can ensure people will want to move to our rural and island communities is by resolving these problems. So in short we need sustainable solutions and not short-term sticking plasters. Presiding officer in conclusion there will be much that we can agree on today. We all acknowledge the need to address labour shortages in sectors and areas that are experienced in them. We all agree there is a need to grow the population in a sustainable way and we all know that resolving the issue of rural and island population is key to spreading prosperity throughout Scotland. But we believe on these benches that both of Scotland's Governments have critical roles to play in addressing the fundamental reasons behind these worrying demographic trends that we continue to see. I call on Parliament to support our amendment today. Thank you. I now call on Daniel Johnson to speak to and move amendment 60.2. Thank you very much Presiding Officer. Let me begin by responding to I think the call that was made by the Minister in his remarks about the scale and fundamental nature of this challenge because he is absolutely correct and I would put it along the following lines. I mean I think economically and in terms of public policy we face three great challenges right now. First of all and most fundamentally that of climate change. Secondly in terms of adopting technology automation and big data and finally population decline and I think I would put all three of those things in the same category but what I would say is that third topic that third category is probably the least explored. I think we know broadly what we need to do in terms of climate change. We know broadly what we need to do in terms of technology but I don't think we've begun to explore what it means to have an ageing population because all three of these challenges I think do the same thing. They challenge us to rethink how we organise our economy. They challenge about what we need to deliver through our public services but also how those public services should be organised and indeed I think they challenge actually the make-up and fundamental nature of our society and our community. So I share I think the sentiments of the minister and in terms of the need for a genuine consensus to take for this because Scotland does have particular demographic challenges. We currently have a population of 5.5 million but that has already started to decline with a projected fall of 16 per cent by 2072 and I think it is important to note some of the things that have already been acknowledged is that we have some particular features and while Donald Cameron is right to point out that we have attracted a smaller share of inward migration it has actually been more important to our population growth so I think we have to challenge ourselves as to why that is what are the underlying reasons and some of them will be straightforward. We are a remote part of this country we have a more dispersed population but I think some of those points around fertility rates in particular we do need to question and I think the other thing I would like to emphasise is that this is not all bad news I think the fact that we are living longer we have greater control over our fertility are good things these are things that we are being more successful and giving people more control but to the points in the motion I think the point around immigration I think cannot be overstated brexit has caused a fundamental challenge to the primary source we had of inward migration and we can't ignore that but what I would say is that we're not alone just a moment we're not alone in facing the challenges we have in our labour market so therefore to blame brexit alone I think misses the point but it certainly makes it harder for us to deal with them so what I would say is and as as the opponents of devolution we absolutely support measures and I welcome mention of fresh start in the motion and indeed I think we should have more control because I didn't quite understand from Mr Cameron's statements why devolved immigration can't work because lots of other countries do make it work and as for someone committed to the devolution settlement I believe that this place is best suited to understand what our labour requirements are and to have input and participation within an immigration system and I'm happy to go back to Mr Whittle now Brian Whittle very grateful for Daniel Johnson for giving away I think we came from the same side of the brexit argument but I think it's very important to note that since brexit the estimate of the number of immigrants that would apply to to work in the UK would be 3.8 million in actual fact it was 5.8 million with 5.4 being accepted so we can't sit here and just blame brexit. Daniel Johnson and I'm grateful for that comment because I think that was broadly the point I was also making and I think it's also worth noting that the share and contribution of the EU towards our net migration had been falling largely because central and eastern European countries had been getting wealthier so we'll be supporting the government motion and while in some ways I would like to support the Conservative amendment because I think it does raise some important points about the nuances and challenges we face I think ultimately obliterating those points around net inward migration I don't think we can really accept so I think we are supportive of the sentiments that the amendment makes but we'll not be supporting it when it comes to the division and indeed at this point I move the amendment in my name but I think there are two really critically important contexts we have to bear in mind when we're facing this first of all is that Scotland has a deep productivity challenge that goes beyond just demographics and that sets out very clearly in the Scottish Fiscal Commission's most recent work where every single region of Scotland's wage growth and employment growth is slower than the UK average. Indeed Scotland's employment and wage growth is is not just slower than the UK average but slower than regions that we would expect to be our rough peers such as the Midlands, the South West and the North West and that's not just to do with oil and gas that is a significant part of the issue but when you look at the regional breakdown the south east of Scotland also underperforms an area really that is more connected into professional services and tourism than it is to oil and gas so I think we have to understand that challenge and understand the importance of growing tax revenues per capita because that's the fundamental basis of the fiscal framework and frankly even without the fiscal framework that is a critical measure in terms of the health of our public finances but the more fundamental point I think in context is this is that world demographics is inescapable in the last 50 years world population growth has halved it will half again by the middle of this century and by the end of the 21st century world population will be declining and so the fundamental point in my view is this is to think that we can solve these problems by attracting people from overseas by importing our labour is a simply not a sustainable solution I think we absolutely must mitigate this I think we must try to attract people but ultimately we cannot import our way out of this problem and indeed I think we must rethink our understandings of human capital and how we seek to build our workforce I think it is a mistake to continue with a model which seeks to import cheap labour and sustain the economy that way we need to re re re realise that human capital is precious and it is finite and I think with that realisation a number of things drop out I think first of all just in a moment with the working age population we must be maximising skills and wages we can't just allow people to have default skills I think that means we need to really accept the challenge of upskilling in a much more urgent and fundamental way and I'll just make one last point and then secondly I think we need to ask our question about the relationship that older people have with work and I'll just develop that but I'll give way first to Ms Graham. I think I must intervene on behalf of employers in the borders in Midlothian because they certainly have not lost cheap labour they don't have bus drivers they don't have people who tells and they certainly were not taking them on the cheap. Daniel Johnson If that was how my sentiment came across that was not my intention at all but I think there is an assumption that somehow we can you know bring people from overseas and I think that has had a sense of perhaps undervaluing labour and I think we need to invest in labour, maximise skills, invest in encryption so we can maximise what people can deliver and I think that's a fundamental part of the solution but I'd also like to point to other places in the world such as Japan and Finland who are dealing with this problem and I'm very much engaging with the concept of what people can do in later life in times of work and that's not working beyond retirement age but supplementing the retirement with work and I think this is a really interesting one that needs to be developed now I'm running out of time so I think we do also need to think very carefully about how we organise our public services again looking at places like Japan and Finland they organise their support for older people in a much more municipal but way and I would just say to the minister I agree with him his points about local focuses and local needs but I would question whether the national care service has conceived is able to deliver that I think it's moving in the other direction and then finally I would just say this very briefly in closing is that we must also look at why are people having less children think we just question whether or not the cost of living the cost of housing the cost of transport is inhibiting people and forcing them to put off buzzer while we can't reverse population decline we should question why people are choosing to have less children as well thank you very much Presiding Officer thank you I now call on Beatrice Wishart thank you Presiding Officer Scottish Liberal Democrats recognise the challenge of population decline and agree with the principle that immigration is a good thing and can provide real benefits across Scotland immigration can be a means to bring in new workers and families to jobs and areas with populations currently in decline my MP colleague Alistair Michael has been campaigning for changes to immigration visas for fishing crew to address shortages and the migration advisory committee previously suggested that such shortages in the fishing industry could be filled by young people on gap years demonstrating I think the lack of understanding about unemployed about employment in one of Scotland's important industries while rural visa pilots could be a way to help reverse depopulation with a greater understanding than the current system it will not be a silver bullet as others have said there's not one single solution to growing the population we cannot encourage new workers and people to areas with insufficient housing and strained public services and strained services that needs inward migration there needs to be infrastructure to support people both newly arriving and those already here which is why my amendment which wasn't selected called on the Scottish government to look at practical solutions to help reverse depopulation it's a real concern for rural communities too few people in a location threatens the viability of an area and it's severely felt in communities especially when the working age population reduces so much and those who are left bear the brunt of the necessary and multiple jobs lack of housing is a significant factor in areas with declining populations Russia is one area where the housing shortage has felt acutely doctors are unable to find housing even just for the short term to help plug gaps in the health service we need more homes and homes that live up to 21st century standards it means sustainable accessible and different varieties of housing Scottish Liberal Democrats are also pressing for greater connectivity broadband connections are still a problem in rural and island communities I have constituents tell me they fear they will have to close their online business due to the poor connection and businesses who are losing custom due to the lack of mobile signal required for modern payment systems rural mobile networks can be overwhelmed by searches of very welcome tourists and will need to be updated for population increases questions about new homes getting connected to the broadband network also need to be resolved we need guarantees from the Scottish government about infill for new housing to the broadband network once r 100 in the voucher schemes wind up an investment in transport infrastructure and the cabinet secretary referred to tailored solutions tunnels infrastructure is about so much more than social benefits to local communities I'm confident that tunnel infrastructure in shetland would help reverse depopulation in the aisles the evidence is already there in trondra where the population had fallen to 14 it rose again after a fixed link was built and it's all happening in shetland sax afford the spaceport above all others is bringing exciting investment and innovation to Scotland we can unlock more potential by providing infrastructure infrastructure to dramatically reduce travel times between the islands of uns jail in mainland shetland that would also benefit the thriving aquaculture sector and the export of millions of pounds worth of whitefish landed at cullivo currently all reliant on the ferries between these three locations but it's not just local communities that would benefit from tunnel infrastructure with greater economic growth as well as bringing more jobs and more people to the islands the contribution to Scotland's economy will increase i'm grateful to the cabinet secretary meeting with me recently to discuss tunnels in shetland and the role it could have on reversing depopulation he reflected on the need for people to adjust their mental map as investment and opportunities developed in the north of Scotland I agree to conclude depopulation needs an array of solutions to help reverse the present scenario this motion has the potential to deflect from the failings of the Scottish government's existing powers in transport housing and digital connectivity policies all helping to reverse depopulation so finally will the Scottish government look at infill of the broadband network for new homes to join the service with ease and with equivalent subsidy once r100 in the voucher scheme constant end will the Scottish government work to increase affordable homes under the rural and islands housing fund which since 2016 has built only 135 homes across scotland and will the Scottish government commit to supporting feasibility studies for tunnels in shetland thank you thank you miss wisher we will now move into the open debate I call Kenneth Gibson to be followed by Brian Whittle mr Gibson thank you Presiding Officer three weeks ago the finance and public administration committee received an update from the Scottish fiscal commission some will perhaps rather too formally remember I lost my voice so the session was diligently chaired by deputy convener Daniel Johnson we welcome new chair professor Graham Roy and were updated on trends in Scotland's population and effects on the economy and income tax and heard that nearly 900,000 fewer people live in scotland in 2072 on current trends crucially the number of 16 to 64 year olds is declining rapidly leaving us with fewer people of working age scotland has long had demographic challenges from the highland clearances to losing two million people to out migration in the second half of the 20th century many to other parts of the united kingdom indeed we the lowest rate of population growth of any country on earth in the 20th century the union dividend in action no doubt and I would gently point out to Douglas London this was long before the existence of this parliament let alone tax-raising powers being being part of our remit well we can embrace the likelihood that most of us have longer and higher quality lives ahead of us in previous generations not having the ability to make up retirement numbers and the workforce will lead to a service and economic decline we must incentivise working for longer by making easy as easy as possible for older people to do so if that's what they wish to do an example is the scotland governments retire in return scheme which streamlines a process like experienced NHS staff take up a part-time post while drawing their pension this is an innovative way to retain staff and prevent a reduction in high-quality service provision across scotland well it's yes i'm very grateful to the member for giving me a because i rushed through this point but i think what we're going to agree with me that the fundamental point here is this is about work supplementing retirement not delaying retirement and that has to be a fundamental principle of what he's talking about i'm happy to accept that point of clarification that's exactly what i mean i think it's about specific choice not about forcing people to retire at an older age but many people do actually want to work a lot longer and we've got some examples in the chamber of people who work for example at and have worked longer generation i would urge Mr Gibson respect and and so on okay well it's long been recognised that population growth in scotland will to require immigration at the end of the freeing of a movement from the EU because of a break that we didn't vote for has caused some people not to come here and others not to stay therefore support the scotland governments rural visa pilot proposal on the talent attraction and migration service to be launched next year but of course as daniel johnson alluded to older people sorry immigrants who come here will also retire and need assistance so we have to go beyond that and i'll talk about that in a second we should also look at how we can recruit more people of working age from elsewhere in the UK and crucially how we can ensure that people raised and are educating scotland feel that they want to stay in a life-forming years we've got to school connections are made relationships formed homes found and routes put down the university of highlands and islands clearly plays a role here as an expansion of digital infrastructure yet we still have an age of disproportionate number of young and educated people for example doctors who studies we've invested in only for them to go elsewhere sometimes never to return a good example of action the scotland government is taking to whether this is the recruitment campaign launched to attract gps to scotland from other areas of the uk and further field it builds on measures creating undergraduate and training placements incentivising moves to rural practice and providing a wide range of development and support overall a growing economy relative to the rest of the uk is fundamental and a greater focus on growth by the scotland government is essential if scotland is to prosper demographically as my constituency includes rural and island communities i'm acutely aware of how important it is that we make it possible and affordable for people of working age to build their lives there population projections by national reckons of scotland anticipates at this rate by 2028 the western isles population will decline by over six percent while urban areas such as midlothian will have grown by six point six and thirteen point eight percent respectively funding the conversion of abandoned and delicate housing could revitalise many rural and island communities and we should look to spain stonia austria and others and lend from them and other nations who face similar challenges this is not just to decline in our overall population but also the distribution of our population and service delivery with it in march this year the scotland government announced four million to help improve infrastructure on scotland's islands such as arnan cumbria and this package is part of the scotland's islands plan designed to improve the quality of life for island communities with 13 objectives and over 100 specific measures to address population decline finally we must address the issue of a woefully low birthrate in scotland something i first raised in this parliament 22 years ago and it's currently in scotland the third lowest in europe after malta and understandably ukraine and i doubt all the economic chaos we've witnessed in the last few days will encourage more people to have children the scotland government is trying to make it easier and more affordable to have and raise children from access to free fertility treatment the baby box and best start grants to provision of free nursery and childcare free skill meals and free higher education our powers to improve the duration and distribution of parental leave remain reserved in denmark the pharaohs in sweden both mothers and fallows are offered generous leave after having a baby and birth rates have grown in recent years and in sweden fallows now may take about 30% of the number of days that mothers do making for a more balanced approach and quicker return of women to the workplace not two weeks after i mean my twin sisters were born right enough being pregnant and giving birth should not be career stopping my former mother-in-law for example was the first woman glasgo university employed who was not sacked upon getting married she was of course sacked when she became pregnant so we have made significant progress scotland minister should look at initiatives to help more people raise families interestingly hungry exempts all mothers of four or more children from income tax for the rest of their life not that i think that's a road we'll get down Presiding officer the scotland government is encouraging rule now on repopulation through community empowerment and tentatively those who wish to have children to do so but as long as we don't have the full powers of independence major decisions on attracting people from abroad to come and live and work in scotland and deliver more flexibility in parental leave will be reserved to the UK government thank you mr gibson i now call brian whittle to be followed by eme roddick mr whittle thank you deputy Presiding officer and can i say from the outside it is actually welcome that we are speaking in a government debate with us definitely potential for depth and purpose and you see deputy Presiding officer we should be discussing the real issues in negative working age migration in scotland and the changes that can be made by the scotland government to improve that situation when we say migration we should not only be discussing inward migration which i think was the focus of the cabinet secretary's speech but also migration from rural scotland to the cities and from scotland to england and further afield i think with that in mind i listened to the cabinet secretary's speech with interest and a certain hope i have to say but found myself a little disappointed because like so much of the scotland government focus it's in what everybody else should be doing and not what he and his government should and could be doing i think that's another missed opportunity to take positive steps i came across a report from the government of course i'll give it to you in the spirit of generosity can i just just for the sake of the record just get him to comment briefly we did hear from the front bench a degree of open mindedness which i really welcome we've had a specific proposal published in relation to a scotland rural visa pilot being worked on by the scotland government by local authorities and other economic partners would he take the opportunity on joining me in welcoming it and joining with the scotland government and other parties in trying to deliver what it sets out to do it's a firm proposal i think what the what the objectives of what you're trying to do i absolutely agree with i'm going to give you some other suggestions of how you would deliver that i think i said i came across a report from the government of netherlands who said that when young people move to bigger towns and cities the average age of the population and the place they leave behind automatically goes up and a community with a higher proportion of old and inhabitants may be less attractive to businesses which may additionally have difficulty finding suitable staff locally and there were other effects of that population decline on fewer schools and dropping house prices fewer care facilities fewer sports facilities big one for me fewer people going to theater and cinema etc in these facilities eventually get cut back and i think that last point is very crucial deputy presenting officer because the only way to reverse the migration away from rural areas and i would like the cabinet secretary to recognise this the only way is to create an environment that encourages people not only to migrate to rural areas but also to stay and not leave those rural areas and there's a very real solution available here to the Scottish government in the shape of the fast emerging green economy and all the fantastic opportunities our economy and future prosperity that brings we should be investing in and driving the green economy which is especially pertinent to rural areas however i think despite the Scottish government's propensity for trumpeting world leading net zero targets the work required behind the headlines falls way short of what it should be and i think investing in innovation in the green economy creating a whole new economy that surely will be a driver in growing that rural economy and it brings a quote to me and i've always tried to get this quote in is it from my no mentor my frank dick who is the director of coaching during my time who said the only competitive advantage we have is learning and improving faster than our opposition however according to the office of national statistics full-time employment in the low carbon and renewable energy economy in scotland has fallen on average at a rate of 428 jobs per year since 2014 and given the noise of the scottish government make about their green credentials and given that the greens are in partnership with the s&p government that has to be a damning indictment on the s&p green approach that more about pr than actually delivering anything tangible jason higgs at the esg and energy transition leader for pwc scotland said in a recent publication that while we are in a unique position north of the border with strong concentration of green jobs connected to the growth of offshore wind hydrogen and carbon capture and the potential to create a global energy hub in the northeast there is a real need for investment and the creation of a diverse pipeline of talented and skilled individuals to help scotland capitalize on its position in that deputy president offers the crux of the matter not only do we need to develop that green economy focused on renewables which i think is yet to materialize we need an education system that has the green economy completely woven through it to ensure that we're producing the right skill job to keep our talent here and stop the brain drain out of scotland for me deputy president officer the biggest disappointment is despite this parliament having complete control of education and health with the ability to innovate to rethink the way in which we deliver that health and education i think that scotland's government have only tinkered around the edges and chosen to keep the status quo content to be in and around the rest of the united kingdom but while we're on the subject of public services and the part they play in where our population and immigrants choose to live transport links and public transport play a significant part in the rural decline and i invite the cabinet secretary to come and visit the south of scotland and see for himself how poorly that community is served by road and rail links as well as by public transport the arterial routes in and out of the south of west of scotland the a75 and the 77 as well as the single track rail link consistently overlooked and bypassed for an investment by the scotland's government in the last 15 years you need to be able to get in and out of the area if you're going to live there deputy president officer if we want positive migration if we want to retain our talent especially our rural areas i would say we need to stop playing investing in the green economy and create a sustainable economy and renewables that encourages our young force a young workforce to stay and a positive migration from outside of our borders we need to develop transport links that make it easy to stay in rural communities and we need to recognise that communities need access to amenities to healthcare to schools and leisure facilities scotland's government want to talk about inward migration and put all that responsibility on west minister without recognising the need to encourage our working population to stay or create an economy that encourages inward migration as ever there is a reluctance to accept the responsibilities and take the positive action that could actually make the difference our country needs we all want scotland to be the destination of choice to live and work it will take more than just politics on display or the scotland's government today it's time that they took governing seriously deputy president officer thank you mr widow i now call Emma Roddick to be followed by Richard Leonard miss Roddick thank you Presiding Officer my region the Highlands and Islands is more dependent on migration than the rest of the country with depopulation continuing in many of the places i represent alongside an overall aging population we must attract people who want to move in work and contribute to our communities it's absolutely grim then that despite voting to stay in the EU the Highlands and Islands is deeply suffering the effects of brexit and the end of free movement hospitality agriculture and the health and social care services are struggling to recruit and seasonal workers have just disappeared it seems that with every decision that recent Tory governments have made building materials and other imported goods have gone way up in costs everyone from housing associations to wee town shops are feeling the hit and struggling to carry on a rural visa has the potential to help dress this massive gap in the workforce many EU nationals that i've spoken to who live here now and are thinking of moving away or have already moved away did so because the path to stay was no longer clear if we have a clear path a clear route that serves as a massive welcome sign then Scotland becomes very quickly more attractive as always i would urge the Scottish government to ensure that communities people who already live in these areas where our visa would be proposed can get to input into the process employers should be able to share what the current challenges are and let us know whether there are housing connectivity or other public services issues that would need to be addressed before we bring more people in we can take lessons from canada for example where the rural and northern immigration pilot is not only driven by communities but provides mentorship and local involvement opportunities for insuring that they can be a real part of their community and are supported to not just come and work but to stay and work i'm glad to see that that principle is already being built into the process my twitter feed today is scattered with rural and highlands and islands organizations who are proud to have already played a part and fed into the process at this early stage if communities feel that the scheme is helping them and addressing issues that they themselves have raised then they will be more receptive to it but it would be a mistake to claim that visas can solve all of our problems there is no one fix and certainly no easy fix for depopulation the problem does run deeper than simply needing more folk to come here we need to make an option for people to stay once they arrive or after they grow up and i've said before in this chamber that the highlands is still suffering the effects of the clearances not enough is being done to reverse that damage and support communities to continue to exist you're more likely to hear well why not move to a city than you are well how can they justify charging you that much for energy worse you're you're likely to be told in the cafe or the pub that young folk just want to go to Glasgow or Edinburgh for uni and then they don't come back young people who want to stay are facing the choice between likely being homeless for a few years and then maybe managing to find a home maybe near suitable employment or study that they might be able to afford or just biting the bullet and moving so why in 2022 am I being told by constituents that they've made the heartbreaking decision to move away because fuel is too expensive that building materials are so expensive they can't get someone to come and fix their roof the consultation for the new scottish languages bill discusses the creation of a geltach that we have one i live in it we don't need to create it we need to support it the highlands and islands are home to many gallic speakers to artists of all kinds music to crafting people who know how to work land or harness the renewable potential of the area and a strong strong sense of culture if it becomes too hard to live there we lose that and i don't think scotland can afford to many folk here might not know that there have been calls mainly tongue and cheek in my region for the highlands and islands itself to be an independent country and that's not as ridiculous as it sounds when you realise that a lot of the arguments for scotland to become independent do hinge on the resources skills and international draw of the highlands and islands and what we have to offer i often tell people that i represent half the country geographically and it's more than true we've got the whiskey and the oil and the shellfish and the renewable energy and as magnus davidson a researcher at the university of the highlands and islands said this country would have more people living in it than nice land and 28 other countries across the world so while my constituents feel that they're not being served well enough that local democracy doesn't exist and if they feel that the central belt seems to get everything then the arguments will continue to stack up but it should not be the case that broadband is so bad that folk in sutherland can't get logged on to work in the morning it should not be the case that people come to me saying that their energy bills are more than their income because the price is tied to a cost of an energy that they're not even using it should not be the case that food is rotting in fields or scallops are going off in the back of a lorry because the people who used to carry out that work aren't sure they're welcome in the UK anymore the highlands and islands is being constantly harmed over and over by UK government policies the cost to scotland of remaining in the united kingdom is already high but my region's future may well be added to that bill very soon we need to be able to make our own choices on immigration this punitive UK system is harming our rural communities and agricultural sector Scotland should get the powers needed to address the unique challenges that the Scottish government has been tasked with addressing but let's use them and the ones we've got to make sure there's no cost to the highlands and islands for staying in Scotland thank you miss Ronnie i now call Richard Leonard to be followed by Paul McLennan mr Leonard deputy Presiding Officer just last month the scotish fiscal commission reported on trends in the population of Scotland and what it meant for income tax and for our economy they forecast that the so-called dependency ratio would rise from 57% today to 79% over the next half a century to put it more starkly there are currently three workers for every one retired person in Scotland by the time we reach 2050 the ratio will be one to one it has always been my view that dignity in retirement is a basic inaliable human right it is a mark of how civilised a society is that an aging population is something to be celebrated not regretted but the demographic change we are facing more than ever will demand a reaffirmation of that old socialist principle from each according to their means to each according to their needs which is why which is why last fridays venal and vindictive Tory budget which sanctions the poorest sweeps away hard one workers rights and rewards the richest must be met with stiff resistance because to the Tories i say that you now have a policy of the survival of the wealthiest and an acceptance that the poorest can go under it is a policy which is not only socially divisive and economically illiterate it is morally repugnant central to this afternoon's debate is the scottish fiscal commission's conclusion that i quote compared to births and deaths migration is more volatile more responsive to economic and policy factors and is the most difficult to predict now i firmly believe that what we need is the establishment of the principle of the freedom of movement of people and of labour we do not want to return to a world in which your passport and where you were born matter once again we want to see borders coming down not going up that should be a first principle too but we also have to distinguish between the noble principle of the freedom of movement of labour and the unethical practice of the freedom of movement of cheap labour including human trafficking my old comrade jim sheridan sadly passed away a few days ago jim's greatest legacy was introducing the members bill which paved the way for the gang masters licensing act which won huge public support after the shocking deaths in more can be of over 20 chinese migrant workers and to anyone who says that it couldn't happen here just two years ago over just one weekend gang masters and labour abuse authority patrols ran into 50 chinese cockle pickers on the beaches of fife and east lothian and let me also remind this parliament that it was a soft fruits farmer in perthshire employing bulgarian workers who was the first person ever to be prosecuted under the 2004 act we know as well that those industries facing the biggest shortages of skilled workers in scotland are those sectors with the poorest pay it is those which rely the most on higher and fire it is those with the worst health and safety record those most notorious for exploitative scams tax avoiding scams like umbrella companies excessive use of employment agencies outsourcing and zero hours one in five of all workers on zero hours contracts in scotland are employed in health and social care one in four of all workers on zero hours contracts are employed in scotland's hospitality sector this pattern predates brexit so let me gently suggest to the cabinet secretary that it is this this economic system that allows the systematic exploitation of workers which is the principal culprit for labour shortages let me make a couple of final points last year as many as one in three students from the most deprived areas of scotland did not complete their college course the same is true of students with a disability one act of every three among care experience students over 40% did not complete their course add to this that for the last five years there has been a shocking failure by the scotish funding council skills development scotland and the scotish government to deliver on skills alignment and planning and we are witnessing not only damage to our economy but worse the stealing of a whole generation's ability to contribute to society so we want the freedom of movement of labour but we want the liberation of our young people's opportunities too finally professors christina betion steve fothergill have recently submitted evidence to this parliament which i hope the first minister who last week spoke of scotland's i quote high employment and law unemployment record will time find time to read because their analysis shows that on top of an official claimant count in scotland of 122 000 people there exists hidden unemployment of 102 000 people largely in their words the manual working class in the poorer parts of scotland who have been abandoned on incapacity benefits so it's clear that we need urgent government action that provides support and offers opportunities clear as the torries push harder and harder to support those who do not need it that is the job of this parliament to defend and support those who do it is clear that that the labour party's duty remains to the class that we represent and that the duty of this parliament is to the people of scotland who we are sent here to represent thank you mr lenard i now call paul mcleanon to be followed by arian Burgess mr mcleanon thank you deputy president officer eastlothian is often referred to as a bread basket of scotland it has high yielding high quality land and employs many in the county farming is the heartbeat of our rural community eastlothian has over 180 farms with a mix of arable dairy pigs upland farming soft fruit and vegetables there are thousands employed in the sector which supports direct farmwork and there are many suppliers of feed agriculture equipment and support services eastlothian has a large rural community it's about a third of our population our population is forecast to grow but not in rural areas we need balanced growth in the last few years farmers have had to deal with a disaster that is brexit which of course scotland voted against and of course recruitment is a major issue for all rural businesses our farmers can't recruit essential workers fruit is left rotten in the fields keeping good workers makes good business sense for farmers said George Jameson previous nfu education and skills policy manager he went on to say knowledge experience and skills are a long-term investment hard to replace and is essential to modern farming just last friday i visited one of our largest food producers and they were very clear that brexit had been the catalyst about problems they're facing around about recruitment as we've heard from the cabinet secretary scotland needs tailored migration solutions to tackle depopulation challenges each area will be completely it will be different and we've heard that today in the debate scotland rural areas have been experiencing population decline over a number of years by 2019 the share of the working age population and our rural areas was 67 percent below the scotish average this combined with the office of workforce through brexit i've mentioned before has restricted the local labour supply labour market in eastlothian and rural areas are already impacted by demand for our agritourism businesses and hospitality businesses the challenges of brexit and demographic change mean that scotland urgent needs the powers to increase inward migration that is why the Scottish government has called for a cross party support as referred for a rural visa pilot the rural visa pilot proposal offers a community driven approach to migration i'm very grateful for the member to take an intervention i have a slight issue here i think as it's already been discussed across europe they've got declining populations even germany are suggesting within 20 years we'll have a population of less than uk so i've got an issue here do you think it's ethical that we should be looking to to take so many people from these countries where they actually they will be they will also be needed we've often heard in this debate that we're talking about the issues in scotland not in the uk not elsewhere so no i think we should this parliament should be looking at the challenges we are facing so yeah and i think that if we were part of the u we'd be able to have these discussions at the moment we can't and we won't have to be able to have that so giving back to i said earlier about the tightness of the labour market and see slowly and the challenge of brexit and demographic change means that scotland urgently needs the powers to increase inward migration talked about the rural visa pilot and it gives that community driven approach that i mentioned scotland needs has its own distinct immigration requirements as of all future population growth is projected to come from inward migration unlike in other parts of the uk the current uk government immigration system is hundreds to a rural sector scotland is only nation in uk where the population is expected to fall fall on a peak in 2028 the scotland's government and that is an important thing in collaboration with local authorities and business sector has developed a rural visa pilot which is designed to help meet the specific needs of some of scotland's remote and rural communities within the existing uk immigration system uk government needs to engage positively with the scotland's government and we've heard the cabinet secretary mention that before in supporting the proposals of practical reform to the immigration system we've heard as well the scotland's government also will launch a talent attraction and migration service in 2023 to support migrants and scotland's based employers to move here the rural economy and farming in scotland is under intense pressure they're under pressure from the energy costs already hearing not around the uk government support scheme is not quelling fear for businesses fertiliser costs inflation pressures are pushing up and of course after friday borrowing costs are raising massively supermarkets also controlling supply contracts mean that farmers can't even meet their costs food shortages will occur if we don't deal with this issue as i mentioned migration is an issue which is crucial for a future especially rural communities but the scotland's government doesn't currently have the powers needed to deliver tailored immigration policies for scotland devolving immigration powers to allow a scotland's visa would allow scotland to attract and retain people with the skills and attributes that we need for our communities and economy to flourish just like any slothain scotland's farmers and rural community needs all the help that we can get at this moment we cannot sacrifice employment opportunities in rural areas the prosperity of rural areas and the slothain in scotland and we can't sacrifice quite frankly the future survival of our rural communities support this motion and give our communities the chance to grow and thrive thank you thank you mr mcleanon i now call arianne birches to be followed by michelle thonson miss birches presiding officer i welcome the motion recommending the establishment of a rural visa pilot delivering as it does on a commitment in the national islands plan implementation route map and in particular wish to commend the collaborative approach taken to developing the proposal calling as it did on the experience and expertise of rural employers communities and local authorities it is these organizations including all 32 scotland's local authorities that rose to the challenge of welcoming over 10 000 new scots displaced first by the syrian conflict and now the ukrainian crisis scotland has shown that it has space and communities willing to open their hearts to people in need of a home and in the scotland's greens and the scotland's greens are committed to supporting community civil society and charity action to aid integration presiding officer rural and island areas have been quick to recognise the positive impact of influx of young often skilled and motivated families can have on their communities boosting school roles establishing new businesses and filling staff shortages what has been slower to react is government policy in responding to the specific challenges of rural migration a rural visa pilot is a step in the right direction but to succeed it also needs to consider the rural integration challenges faced by new scots many of which are already familiar to those who live in rural communities very grateful for the member to take her intervention and she makes some very good points would she also recognise though that crucial to having that migration into rural communities is having an economy a rural economy that those migrants can can work in i agree that we need a rural economy and i'll go on to speak about that a little while what has been um since 2014 the university of glasgow and swans the university's joint project social support and migration in scotland has highlighted specific challenges faced by migrants who settle in the countryside migrants highlight loneliness and social isolation exacerbated by poor and expensive rural public transport and a lack of community spaces to meet there's also a need to provide suitable and flexible English as a second language provision which includes embedded support for building social relationships learning about the local area and sharing customs and practices and as with settled community there's also the challenges of finding warm affordable housing in the midst of a housing crisis presiding officer as the demographic makeup of rural communities shifts to become ever older more than 22 percent of residents in my region are over 65 the Scottish economy is facing specific challenges around rural depopulation and need for on-going low skilled seasonal and flexible labour there is no panacea for this the reasons for highlands and island depopulation are complex interlinked and long standing as we've heard already from some of my colleagues in the chamber but in my region employers are increasingly desperate to find workers even those that weathered the challenge posed by the end of free movement caused by brexit and the unprecedented challenge of covid they're reporting that they are reluctantly having to close their doors to trade due to shortage of staff according to the lock harbor chamber of commerce two-thirds of local businesses have experienced problems in recruiting or retaining existing staff and while a good deal of this is due to housing shortages rural scotland urgently needs tailored migration solutions to tackle its depopulation challenges to close presiding officer with rural scotland anticipated to benefit from green jobs generated by nature restoration and the just transition to net zero i am encouraged to see that the Scottish government policy is moving to address the failures of the Tory government in Westminster and their hostile environmental policies there will be challenges in integration along the way but i'm confident that with greens in government the highlands and islands can provide a supportive community that welcomes everyone who wishes to call scotland their home thank you miss purchase and before i call the next speaker could i just remind members that there is some time in hand and therefore i can be very generous in terms of speaking times and also if members were wishing to consider taking interventions or seeking to make interventions that too would be able to be accommodated so i now call michelle thompson to be followed by alexander stewart michelle thompson thank you thank you for that presiding officer i won't threaten to double the length of my speech but i am always very welcome to taking interventions to say scotland's needs are being met by the current immigrant uk migration policies patently untrue indeed it's in the power with a statement UK economy is strong and stable and therefore delighted to support the government motion before us last friday's budget statement by quasi-quartang and some of the subsequent interviews claim his approach was to tackle supply side issues this is why he explained he had to uncap bankers bonuses so that london could attract more poor immigrant bankers who were in search of as much personal money as possible if he had really been interested in addressing key labour shortages in our economy he would have announced proper support for abolishing restrictions on inward economic migration and of course as per the emotion we do indeed need to attract more people to work on the land in rural areas more in the IT sector more to work in our hospitals and more in the hospitality and tourism sectors and so on perhaps it'd be easier to list the sectors that don't need to attract new workers however it does appear that for the tories only london counts and only the type of bankers that led to the crash of 2008 the huge bonus cultures already being proven to be counterproductive if you want effective banking that serves customers rather than generating quick speculative money encouraging more inward migration of the economically active for the real economy would be a significant contribution to the sustainability of many businesses including in my constituency of falcher east it would allow for business growth that's currently hampered and it would contribute to addressing supply chain issues that are caused by a lack of access to skilled workers now as the government motion recognises scotland needs an open and flexible migration policy that's sensitive to the complex and differentiated labour requirements across different geographies in scotland so i particularly welcome the motions call upon the UK government to accept the Scottish government's rural visa pilot but i would go further and say it should be fully implemented as soon as possible without the restrictions that inevitably follow piloting and i trust this is the first policy suggestion of many in this area and we've heard some others from the cabinet secretary already so i welcome the rural views of suggestion for scotland but it's not nearly enough as i'm sure the cabinet secretary where he in his place would agree the truth is earlier initiatives such as a fresh talent scheme introduced in 2005 were introduced while we were members of the EU now we have to face the reality of atory brexit topped off by quasi-quartons bizarre financial and economic strategy yes i will happy to don't come in i thank the member for taking intervention can i ask her to attempt to answer the question that i pose in in my speech which is why why does scotland consistently prove to be less attractive to economic migrants than the rest of the UK and why and what solutions does she bring to that question Michelle Thompson i did clock that point when you made it earlier but i think you weren't qualifying it what you were pointing out actually was a massive draw of london and the southeast and as i've already pointed out in my speech this massive draw active policy making by the UK government to favour london and the southeast and this city in london does affect not only scotland but affects other areas in the rest of the UK as well and i think many tories in the benches would concede that that's true no no i'll carry on i'll carry on let me carry on because i'm going to talk about something that's already been mentioned as well it's true that scotland has demographic challenges but these have been exacerbated by brexit no more welcoming open borders instead frankly a mean spirited and near xenophonic attitude towards many of the people should be attracting the truth is that inward migration enhances our society and culture in addition to supporting us economically and the snp philosophy runs entirely counter to the little englander approach of the tories with the threats on little in my view tories display an utter poverty of ambition and parade a set of values about the peoples of this world that i thought had been buried decades ago now i recognise only too well that migration patterns and policy formulations is a complex matter. Jacob Bijaak's book forecasting international migration in Europe a Bayesian view pointed to the fact that migration itself is susceptible to many unpredictable factors such as political and economic crises or policy changes and his forecast done in 2010 didn't predict the political and economic crises unleashed on an unsuspecting populist with the advent of brexit an immoral immigration policy and trusonomics three events that created political and economic crisis in the wake of Tory government policy at Westminster so my last point is to ask you to imagine everyone to imagine imagine a scotland that's open and welcoming a scotland in which people coming from other parts of the world any parts of the world feel their unique insights and talents are valued a scotland where it's recognised and understood that we live in a global world that welcomes young ambitious people if you're going to help me imagine i'm happy to do so i was i was just gonna ask the member if she can imagine a scotland where ferry services run on time or more reliable where broadband actually is delivered so people can have superfast broadband can you imagine a scotland like that misha tomson i could talk you a million times over and i'm delighted that the scotland's government has taken the initiative to out roll out broadband in the abject failure of the UK government so let us let it now know baraking from the sidelines if you don't mind sorry Presiding officer a scotland imagine a scotland where it's recognised and understood that we live in a global world that welcomes young ambitious people who work hard and contribute tax to enable us to fund our much valued public services imagine a scotland that is truly open for business with entrepreneurship attracting entrepreneurs from the world the world that's what i'd be doing if i was going to implement immigration strategy we can imagine but without real power in the form of independence to manage our own immigration policies imagining is all we can do thank you misha tomson and indeed of course it is my job to keep order or to attempt to keep order in the chamber thank you and i now call ictslander stewart to be followed by shumon i'm going to be good mr stewart thank you deputy Presiding officer i am pleased to contribute to this debate as this parliament considers how best to tackle scotland's changing population and i support the amendment in the name of donal cabinet today's motion talks about the importance of an effective migration system that meets scotland's specific needs it also talks about the culture and the economic contributions of those who choose to live here there is certainly much truth in the sentiments and indeed my colleagues on these benches had similar sentiments when this issue was debated and discussed a few years ago however while migration is clearly important in ensuring scotland's tax base continues to grow it is just as important to look at the changes and the challenges within scotland's current population the government motion talks about the distinct demographic challenges that scotland face and our amendment points out that these are multifaceted deputy Presiding officer while it is true that scotland's population growth is projected to come from migration alone it is also the case that the most significant trends within scotland's population is that it has been steadily aging over the last 40 years as my party spokesperson for older people i am clear that addressing the challenges created by this trend will be just as important as any new approach to migration could be the percentage of male population aged over 65 has risen from 11% in the early 80s to nearly 18% in the most recent figures that were published and by the end of the 2040s the number of people aged 75 or over will have nearly doubled compared to just 10 years ago according to some estimates at the point nearly 23% of scotland's population will be of pensionable age I thank the member for giving weight the statistics he's read out do they not all make the case for scotland having a different and distinctive immigration policy given our demographics are different i would disagree with that doctor and i think that what we do have is we've identified that scotland has a problem but other countries across europe have a similar problem so we need to make sure that we are trying to do all we can here and the united kingdom has certainly proved to do that in recent times according to some of the estimates as i say it'll be 23% of the population will be pensionable and all of that is true in spite of the fact that moving to scotland the average younger person in general is younger than the population so it's a good thing that older people in scotland are able to live longer lives and that is the case throughout the united kingdom but it also we need to be honest about the challenges that is the situations that we create and how we deal with many of these challenges deputy presiding officer while those who choose to settle here are usually younger than the scotland average it is also true that people aged over 50 make up a third of the scotland workforce now the workforce is aging continually and we know that not only this is the two but it will have doubled by the numbers of 65 and over who today are compared with so individuals remain an important part of the scotland workforce they are vital as an asset in business in every sector in every part of the economy with the contribution of an aging population they will only become more acute as we go into the future given this is clear that supporting people to retain in work and who wish to choose to work longer should become a priority for the Scottish government the current changing labour market means that the the need to reskill and to retrain has never been more important but it's also the case that the Scottish landscape is at times confused it has need to change and it's complicated the need for us to be given the greater for older people as we know to be less likely to move into a new job from the same job or the job they did before it should be easier lifelong learning opportunities are an excellent way of allowing older people to change career paths even at a late stage of their lives but as it stands deputy presiding officer there is simply not enough opportunities in that area with recent research suggesting older adult learners were particularly disadvantaged in Scotland and those who were disabled were even further disadvantaged last week's promise of a new skills reform landscape gives us hope there's no question that we want to improve and change what's happening in this area but I fear that this reform may come too little and it will be too late for many because it will fail to provide the system that can truly capitalise on older people's potential deputy presiding officer we know that Scotland can and should be an attractive destination for those choosing to migrate it should also be one of the best places in the world for people who are growing old to live with the average profile in scotland's population continuing to increase these challenges will continue to and it's important that we unlock the potential within our workforce along with colleagues on these benches I will continue to push for policies which will deliver the skills and the economy that we need some of those skills will no doubt come through migration as they have done in the past so in conclusion deputy presiding officer however much of this can come through acknowledging the challenges created by an aging population and working to ensure that people can stay working for as long as they choose while allowing them to contribute to society but we must understand that housing that transport links that employment all play a part why is scotland less attractive than other parts of the UK we need to come up with these solutions deputy presiding officer to ensure that we succeed thank you thank you mr stewart I know colshford brown to be followed by christine grim miss brown thank you presiding officer we've heard today that scotland is facing a reduced working population over the next 50 years and i'm sure every member in this parliament is concerned by that presiding officer as many know i grew up in austria between 1945 and 1970 the Australian government's immigration policy sought migrants from england and in europe and in the 70s this policy changed of people from other countries were encouraged to come to austria migrants came from asia the middle east and south america as well as some more from europe this policy was known as a 10 pound poms and my parents decided in the 70s to move to the austria with my brother i'm sure many of us have family members and friends who took up similar schemes not only in austria but also in new zealand and in canada as many of us will also have family members and friends who've had the opportunity to go on working holidays to these places enjoy a new country base yourself there to travel gain employment and life experiences as well as contribute to the local economy and a lot of these people also fall in love and they stay in the country if they get married it's a win-win for both parties as we recover from the pandemic austria like many other countries around the globe that are struggling with the health crisis at the moment are actively recruiting here healthcare workers nurses and doctors from other countries including the UK they know the problems they have and they can be proactive on how to address them although there has been repeated calls from the first minister in the Scottish government to allow us to have devolved immigration system to suit our needs we have been denied this now more than ever as we emerge from the pandemic and tackle a cost of living crisis it becomes more and more evident the necessity of Scotland having full powers to not only recover but to build a stronger Scotland with Scotland's priorities at its heart presiding officer yes i'm grateful for taking this intervention for the whole time this parliament existed we have not had a workforce plan for our NHS which i think is ridiculous is that something the Scottish government also really need to look at because what the member has highlighted clearly shows that we need a workforce plan to run our public services here in Scotland. I thank the member for the intervention absolutely i think we need a workforce plan but i think we are restricted if we can't actively go out and seek people from other countries to come to Scotland i know many other people from countries around the world that would love to come to Scotland but if we don't have immigration policy we can't do that so we're limited by that um presiding officer i know brexit has already been mentioned several times in this debate um but it is such an important factor in in so many things that we're facing at the moment and let me just discuss the fishing sector my constituency of air used to have a thriving fishing industry but the numbers have dwindled over the years with brexit making matters only worse since brexit fish landings in air were down from 2019 to 2021 by 36% in value i spoke to spesbonna superior seafood which is based in my constituency they're a long-term family business over many generations once thriving but now they're one of the few boats left in trun times have been really difficult for them for the last couple of years since brexit and now also with the price uh full price increases but they continue despite all these added challenges and their main challenge at the moment is workforce they've previously recruited a talented employee from listerwania but he has gone back back there because after two weeks he could not secure a visa from the UK government the system results in a talented workforce for getting turned away because visas are too difficult to access the challenges that scotland is facing with a working age population are being experienced all over the world but scotland has had all these meaningful policy areas to address these challenges stripped away from them but let's not all be doom and gloom as there is things to be positive about compared to other EU countries scotland has a higher share of population aged 25 to 64 with at least a tertiary education and we saw recently st andryd university topped the guardians list of the UK's best universities showing the strength of scotland's higher education sector we find when we speak to people people do not leave education and into the workforce the Scottish employer perspective survey shows that the majority of employers are well satisfied at with their workers level of skills and in the national strategy for economic transformation the Scottish government has addressed our need for highly skilled workforce to drive forward our economy one of the ways we plan to do this which has been mentioned is by trying to attract workers from elsewhere in the UK but if the UK government has the same problem with reducing working age population and they continue with their hostile immigration policies how can the Scottish government attract highly skilled people to contribute to our economy schemes like the rural visa pilot will be welcome for a solution but in the short term. Presiding officer we are at another debate which highlights the problems of brexit and the negative effects it is having on Scotland. I look forward to joining my colleagues on the COVID-19 recovery committee in our future inquiry into workforce shortages we will look into this in more detail and do what we can do in short term to address this so. Let me conclude myself like many others across Scotland today are extremely concerned we have the highest rate of inflation in 40 years the pound plummeted to an all term low yesterday we have had some banks and business societies today announcing that they will have no more new mortgages and interest rates are predicted to rise to 6% next year the United Kingdom is in chaos the broad shoulders of the UK and a stable government is a fantasy the sooner Scotland becomes independent and no longer is shackled to this failing UK government the better thank you miss brown I now call Christine Graham to be followed by Pauline McNeill miss Graham thank you very much deputy Presiding officer almost half of the country's 32 local authorities will experience population decline over the next decade with the effect most acutely felt in many rural and island areas we know that our local authorities that are specific pressures in my constituency of Midlothian South Tweeddale and Lauderdale now before I go on it's undeniable that Brexit which Scotland voted against by 62% and even before recent events damaged Scotland's economy and it has exacerbated a trend in diminished workforce freedom of movement of workforce was evident in practically all aspects of Scottish life examples such as in hospitality transport health and social care sectors the UK skilled worker route excludes many from coming under the points based system with restrictions and salaries and so on for example but the skilled worker visa you must demonstrate in general you have a job offer from a home office licensed sponsor at required skill level you will be paid the relevant minimum salary threshold by your sponsor normally 26,500 or the going rate for their particular job whichever is higher in my own constituency when talking with local businesses as I referred to in a colleague on the opposite benches I know there are shortages of bus drivers in hospitality and health and social care directly as a consequence of leaving the EU and it isn't that we're being paid less they were paid equally this loss of work was exacerbated by the morality of many parts for a range of reasons not least because wages across the board tend to be lower and therefore beneath that UK threshold while we know the population of Scotland grows older by the decades there also tends to be a more elderly population in rural areas the young having left to work in more urban environments for understandable reasons though they frequently return in older age again adding to that elderly population this puts additional pressure on services such as care and health delivery of services and rural areas is also more time consuming with the necessary distances between towns and villages and therefore more costly the need to retain a younger demographic has to be addressed making rural life attractive with reasonable access to urban areas and for this I congratulate the Scottish Government on bringing back the border railway which has seen population really grow in places such as gorebridge and newton grains with young families moving in now there was a scheme many moons ago 50 years ago actually when key workers such as school teachers and GPs were offered houses by the local authority to take up positions it worked and I benefited from that as a secondary teacher moving to Dumfries in Galloway now that to me was a community driven approach that would also be attractive not just to younger people and families but to migrants so we not only need more relevant immigration roles from Westminster but these to be targeted more flexible with input from local businesses and public services has happened 50 years ago for my constituents and not just for the elderly population to have mixed and thriving communities provides not only staffing for our care and health sector but it sustains local services such as public transport and local business from the local plumber to keeping the local shops in the high street open it is essential we are able to offer Scotland as their home and I fully support visa pilots and I'm glad the cabinet secretary is back because I'm bidding for the borders to be one such pilot I know he has great favour in the borders we in Scotland surely understand more than the rest of the UK the economic needs for immigration because we are migrants ourselves in many parts of the world we know the challenges and the opportunities when making your life in another country the Scottish diaspora runs into millions way beyond our own indigenous population but unfortunately for Scotland for now we are tied into UK's useless hairy handed counterproductive immigration system born to appease the southeast of England and brexit ears falsely blaming EU migrants for the economic issues particularly in the north of England all falsehoods and no Donald Cameron who's often consensual his contribution in particular the reference to the Scottish Tory manifesto of 2019 for targeted migration I do not however share his optimism that a list trust government will resuscitate this in any event she's her hands full with the economic cases chaos she's brought about independence gives us that essential control over the macroeconomy part of the answer to why Scotland has been losing population we've never had control for a macroeconomy since the union control over a macroeconomy over migration and with the demonstrating actions of the trust quick time financial duo I tell you something it cannot come soon enough thank you miss graham I now call Pauline McNeill to be followed by John Mason miss McNeill thank you Presiding Officer whilst brexit is not the only reason that we have skill shortages and employment gaps in my view it still remains a sad period in Scotland's history that the particular model of brexit presided over by the johnson government meant that we did unfortunately lose huge numbers of EU citizens and they were treated badly in the process so we should not pretend that that did not happen and I agree with others that accentuated a pre-existing problem there are many ways to address Scotland's particular economic and social needs but it is a critical part of the overall solution that UK immigration policy is flexible enough to cater for the specific needs of nations and regions so I say to the minister today that I welcome the pilot proposed but as I have said on many occasions someone who supports being part of the union we should not fear a justified and differentiated policy within the UK if it helps the nations and regions there are many sectors where there are skill shortages such in hospitality as we all know and by no means exclusively but improving the career prospects and paying conditions security of employment and some of those sectors is essential for fair work but it might actually address a huge factor in filling vacancies in those particular areas and I like to put on record that I hope the government will support the hospitality rising campaign when it comes to address that question but there are many people in their 30s considering a family right now who are worried about the UK economy the interest rates the mortgage rates rising energy prices so although it may be anecdotal I think it's fair to come to the conclusion that this is a significant factor for any person considering whether or not they wish to add if you like to the population by having children unfortunately the word migration is regularly used with negative connotations quite often preceded by the word illegal I have always supported as many others in this chamber have a progressive policy when it comes to immigration and asylum as I believe we should play our part in the world but in truth Scotland desperately needs them an immigration policy to avert a demographic catastrophe as many other speakers have said is the heart of the debate because Scotland is set to lose nearly a million people over the coming decades and the Scottish fiscal commission said that 16 percent of the overall population mainly due to a low birth rate is a key driver of this in fact figures released at the end of June detailing Scotland's live birth rate show the second lowest annual totals and shaggers began in the 1800s which tells us how serious the problem is and I fear that we may be increasingly becoming economically unproductive there are fewer working age people available to pay taxes needed to support a growing elderly population or national health service and our pensions and this fallen population will depress economic growth over the next 50 years in fact less than 1 percent according to the Scottish fiscal commission unless we do something about it interestingly even the new prime minister Liz Truss belatedly now concedes the immigration isn't is important for economic growth and plans to loosen immigration rules to boost the UK economy it'll be an interesting rehash I'm sure already of the internal immigration debate within the Tory party I mean I don't think it's maybe perhaps time for the Tories to make their mind up on this but I believe migrants contribute through tax and despite popular myths tend to use fuel health service compared to others it's a positive thing I don't understand why the Tories are not committing to what their view on this motion is or not I don't know what their fear is of embracing some differential policy towards immigration they haven't explained that so far because Brexit has undoubtedly made the problem worse UK staff shortages have intensified due to the dramatic fall in EU migration since the vote in 2016 and data from the ons has shown that since the EU referendum european migration to the UK has fallen by a massive 72 percent and the new post-Brexit system has introduced visa requirements for EU citizens who had previously been able to work in any job in the UK now in eligible for work visas and so predictively we see EU migrant workforce has declined it sharply the hospitality sectors have seen a decline of 25 percent in EU workers and the agricultural sector has seen a decline of 28 percent in a meeting I hosted with the hospitality industry which many of you joined a couple of weeks ago businesses will attend there said they were struggling to recruit staff and that is backed up by press reports which suggests that staff shortages in the hospitality industry are reaching such critical levels causing nearly half of operators to cut trading hours or capacity in order to cope so our problems are real and this has been estimated to cost the industry 21 billion in lost revenue and causing an estimated 5 billion loss in tax for the Exchequer which is clearly bad for growth I want to conclude by addressing the point that Siobhan Brown mentioned earlier to disagree with her conclusion that is that there is a moral case for migration to particularly when those fleeing from war you create being the prime example there must be room in an asylum and immigration policy to welcome and resettle displaced persons to use their skills whilst they're here but of course in the long run we must hope that for Syrians, Somalians, Ukrainians, Afghanistan people it will see peace in their own countries and allow them the choice to return to their own homes and rebuild their own countries but we must also live up to our responsibilities too in the world and embrace those who wish to make Scotland their home I hope that the UK and the Scottish government will continue to work together to try and solve which is an enormous problem for Scotland's population growth this must be a central focus in the years to come thank you very much indeed ms McNeill before calling John Mason who's the final speaker in the open debate I'd remind all members who participated they need to be in for the closing speeches and with that I call John Mason for a very generous six minutes Mr Mason a generous six minutes thank you very much and so just add something at the beginning following Pauline McNeill's speech and people's attitude towards immigration I was recently at the national theatre for Scotland production of Exodus which was on at the Tron Theatre in Glasgow and which was absolutely excellent and touched on some of these issues so I would commend that to anyone who would like to see it the emphasis in the motion is on rural areas but challenges are in urban areas too I was speaking to a friend just yesterday who works in a factory nearby in Ivan McKee's constituency and their factory has been advertising for a forklift driver for six weeks and have been unable to find one with the result that the other driver the existing driver has to work many extra hours to keep the whole place going and in the summer I visited Keswick in the English Lake district and there were adverts in many many shops cafes restaurants looking for staff and some appeared to be closing early or for an extra day each week because they were so short of staff so this is an issue affecting Scotland's rural communities but it is affecting many other communities too as we've heard already from other speakers the finance committee had a good look at the Scottish fiscal commission's report trends in Scotland's population and effects on the economy and income tax quite a snappy title and it's particularly important how forecast for Scotland's population compared to the rest of the UK's this is that our population is expected to fall by 16% to 4.6 million in 50 years time while the UK's will fall by only 2% and before the Conservatives tell us once again that we should cut taxes and people will flock here from England let's remember this trend has been largely going on since 1707 when Scotland's population was around a quarter to a fifth of England's and now it is more like a tenth so this has been a very long term trend I thought the member was giving up standing up to get an intervention given this stark contrast ah Mr Johnson yes Daniel Johnson in a similar note would he not also acknowledge that actually that population decline is also part of a global trend it actually something that we need to embrace rather than try to completely off-sex I don't think that it's possible John Mason I absolutely agree and I mean Germany and Japan are examples and I think there's been a number of issues to be fair which have been raised today which are all valid and I think there are longer term trends we need to deal with and having more children might be part of the answer and maybe we can do something about that but in the short term eh Christine Grahame laughing eh in the short term I think it has to be focused on immigration and bringing people in from outside and eh we could go into that in more detail and other people have said things about that because I think there is a moral issue about pulling people out of other countries who need them especially skilled people like doctors out of Malawi but eh I think we're not the only one who would see immigration as part of the answer especially eh in the short term now given this stark contrast in population forecasts it cannot be right that there is one immigration policy for the whole of the UK in one sense it does not matter what revised fiscal framework we put in place Scotland will always be disadvantaged if we cannot grow our population now I do accept as others have said that we can do things around the edges like encouraging more people into work through training and perhaps various incentives and the CITB briefing for this debate was fine eh focusing on skills and so on but I do not think it said much about growing the actual population and that remains the key we we can also encourage people to have more children and I confess that I'm guilty of not having any children at all eh but there have been good policies mentioned again all ready I missed that thankfully eh policies like the baby box the Scottish child payment free university education which all make a large having a larger family less of a financial burden but I fear that none of these is going to have enough impact quickly enough the fiscal commission report considers the size of the labour force and its impact on the economy and in turn affect that affects how much income tax we can raise unless directly other tax revenues as well the motion the motion mentions social economic and cultural contributions and certainly at the finance committee we often tend to focus on the economic and financial benefits of immigration after all I think it is widely accepted that it is difficult to grow an economy if the overall population of a country is stagnant or falling but the so yes okay Brian Whittle very grateful for the member for giving way but he also then flipped that round and says very difficult to grow your population if you're not growing your economy and it's really really important that we look at how we develop our economy in the country to draw people to the country John Mason well the two are certainly interlinked but I think the bigger problem that we could address more easily is the population one and the very fact that your population is increasing almost automatically makes your economy grow as well it's very hard to do it the other way round but as I said the social and cultural benefits are huge too just on Sunday I was attending my own church and I was chatting to a guy from Sierra Leone who's working in the care sector and the previous Sunday I attended a church with a Nigerian background where I was the only white person there which is always an interesting experience and they've taken over a large church of Scotland building which had a dwindling congregation so it's great to see that some of our cultural assets are benefiting from people choosing to come and live in Scotland and despite what some of the opposition members would say Scotland is an incredibly attractive place for many from around the world I know that some members will also say that higher taxes here will put people off coming and staying well let's try and see let's have a more welcoming immigration policy here and see if people want to come I think they will now moving on to the amendments the conservative amendment is actually surprisingly good compared to some I've seen in the past so I'll skip over it the the labour amendment does what so many labour amendments do it identifies the problems but not giving much by way of answers problem one high levels of economic inequality yes and what should we do about it two more housing is needed yes but should we have invested less in schools and hospitals they don't say three local authorities could use more money yes of course but should we give less to the NHS four use all the policy levers available well that's a nice vague phrase and fifth spread the wealth across Scotland I don't know if they're advertising advocating a wealth tax or what to be fair to the Lib Dems they have some practical suggestions like broadband and tunnels although I have to say that I think the tunnels almost bankrupted the Faro islands so there is quite a cost to that but then they say calls on the Scottish government to call for practical solutions well I'm sure the government is doing that without being told by the Lib Dems however perhaps positively what all this shows is that we have a national problem in our hands with a lack of people and projections for the population to fall further so perhaps then this is one problem we can all agree exists and perhaps we can all work together better than we often do in order to find solutions I'm clearly a city person with a city constituency but as some members know I love visiting islands and this summer visited the world's largest island namely Greenland but I think the most moving impact I have ever had experiencing visiting an island was much closer to home and that was st Kilda it is fabulously beautiful and as you sail sail there it almost seems unreal surreal but seeing that deserted village walking among the houses and reading about the lives of the people who lived there until slightly under 100 years ago I found incredibly moving we cannot allow such a depopulation and evacuation to happen to more of our island and rural communities we must tackle this problem thank you thank you very much indeed we now move to the closing speeches and I call first Rhoda Grant for around about nine minutes please it's good indeed inflationary speeches thank you Presiding Officer and can I refer members to my register of members interests population decline is complex and demographics are changing Daniel Johnston and Richard Leonard explained explored many of the issues surrounding that in their speeches we all welcome long life and it's hugely disappointing that Scottish life expectancy is falling for the first time in generations a point that Donald Cameron made we also falling birth rates this is not surprising given the cost of living is rising affordable housing is lacking and support for working families is sparse a point made by Daniel Johnston in his speech and the areas most affected by skill shortages in rural Scotland childcare is almost non-existent we're all aware of skill shortages in rural communities who tell us in pubs shutting because of the lack of staff and Pauline McNeill pointed out the 25 percent of the eu workforce had been lost to that industry she also pointed out the 20 28 drop in the eu workforce for agriculture crops rotting in the ground in the face of a food shortage because migrant workforce are struggling to get their work visas to allow them to come in and pick them points made by a number of speakers including palm clenin Richard Leonard is right though that it is often the sectors that pay less that suffer the greatest labour shortage however that's not being met by higher pay it's sadly being met in many areas with a growth of illegal trafficking and I join him in paying tribute to the late Jim Sheridan for his work on combating labour exploitation these skill shortages have led to long waiting lists and access to care in the community and hospitals closing their doors due to lack of staff and it's not always because staff don't want to work there or there are too few staff in our rural communities it's often that the staff cannot afford to live there and this has been made worse by Brexit by having a one-size-fits-all immigration policy that does not fit all areas of the UK but as Pauline McNeill points out there these were issues before Brexit but Brexit has simply made them worse we must also remember that there are issues with regard to the impact of population retention as well housing jobs and services I think every speaker mentioned these in some measure young people I know from my casework would stay and that was a point made by Emma Roddick and others as well most of them are desperately wanting to stay in their rural communities but they're being forced out this generation are not only facing a lack of jobs they're also facing a lack of housing houses come on the market but are selling way beyond their means people are retiring from the cities and can buy with cash way over the value of the property and that's inflating all rural house prices we have communities where over half the houses is second homes or holiday lets communities cannot sustain that level of absenteeism let me be clear I'm not against holiday lets or second homes but it has to be proportional to the community therein the island bond was rightly scrapped because all it would have done was inflate house prices on islands by added an additional 50 000 pounds as those moving into the area would also have had access to that money it would be so much better to make that money available to local people to young people to build their own homes and protect that investment by the public purse with a burden on the house that remains within the community as a full-time home going forward Jim Hunter has called for a Highlands and Islands housing authority and I believe that requires consideration it really highlights the urgency of the problem that such an approach is being called for on that point Brian Whittle very grateful for the member giving way and I fully recognise there is an issue in rural communities around Scotland of second homes but there's also another issue especially in the south of Scotland where many homes lie empty because there's nobody take these homes up and it's a different issue there and that's around amenities and it's around local business Rotogrant yes we need jobs and services and we also need good quality homes because often you see the houses that are lying empty are actually wrecked you can't heat them because they're drafty old houses we need investment in that houses as well as investment in the people that live in them to make sure that there are jobs and services available because we can't attract people into our communities without that when we look at having visas to encourage repopulation we need to really look at having a finessed system as well I live in Inverness and it continues to grow to a point where schools and facilities are overstretched in our report on demographic challenges in the Highlands and Islands it pointed out that areas such as Argyllunbydd, the Outer Hebrides, Caithness, Sutherland are in need of intervention in Highland generally it's projected to have a small population growth of around 1.4 per cent whereas fragile communities such as Caithness are projected to fall by over 21 per cent east of Ross down by nearly 14 per cent and Sutherland down by almost 12 per cent we need to guard against swapping one broad brushed policy with another and should put perhaps look at identifying repopulation zones I agree with Angus Robertson that those who migrate need to be able to take family with them and I know families who find it absolutely unsustainable to stay especially if they have elderly relatives needing care at home and they cannot bring them with them and that also impacts on children grown up children of the family so the bespoke immigration policy that Donald Cameron speaks about needs to take that into account the policy has to attract the skills that we have shortages of but it also has to take account of their family and their social needs as well Beatrice Wishart talked about connectivity in broadband connectivity in rural areas and there are more opportunities to get high quality work into rural areas but that is dependent on having that connectivity we all work differently because of the pandemic and some of those jobs are available around home working but we need to make sure that connectivity is there and I know of cases where families are considering leaving because they cannot work due to the lack of connectivity Kenny Gibson and Brian Whittle talked about urbanisation the depopulation impacting on rural areas with urban areas growing and I think that's an issue everywhere but we have to think about how we support those in our rural communities with the services that address that and we recently had a debate on the centralisation of health services within the highlands and islands and some of my constituents are travelling the equivalent to someone from Edinburgh traveling to Newcastle for basic healthcare we need transport a public transport available in rural areas and point made by Brian Whittle because people are dependent on cars we know the cost of living in rural areas was already 20 to 40 percent higher than it was in other areas and that's getting worse with the economic policies being pursued by the the Conservative government in in London a point made by both Richard Leonard and Pauline McNeill atrocious policies that are going to impact on all of us and pushing the cost of living even higher for those who are low paid the Scottish government in back benchers obviously said independence was the only response to all of that but actually what we need is proper devolution devolution of migration policies and we need a Scottish government that focuses on jobs housing and services all within its own reach. Presiding officer in conclusion people are essential to our economy and if we don't have workers our economy fails their work and they pay taxes we need inward migration but we also need to provide homes jobs and services to keep our own young people at the same time of attracting fresh talent into our depopulated areas. Thank you very much indeed Ms Matt and I'll call Miles Briggs for 10 minutes. Thank you thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and I think overall this has been a good debate but it's also a very important one and we all recognise the need to act and address the serious and important issues of Scotland's depopulation and demographic challenges. I grew up in a village called Bank Foot which is nine miles north of Perth and without hopefully sounding beyond my years ahead of this debate I was considering what that village looked like when I was growing up because the village had a GP surgery a police station a community nurse a hairdresser a post office had a petrol station as well as two mechanic garages the village also had three shops and perhaps most importantly to address isolation and social life had three pubs which were also hotels and a restaurant interestingly many other houses in that village on the main street had previously also been thriving local businesses from a butcher to a sweet shop to an iron munger today the village has one pub and one shop my point is that across Scotland our communities have changed and seen a huge loss of key public and private services which used to help sustain and provide local employment all the consequence of the changes to our shopping and working lives now the recent figures from the Scottish fiscal commission suggest a projected 16 percent decline of in population over the next 50 years that should be a real wake-up call to all of us regardless of party politics and finding and developing the solutions we need to put in place in Scotland is important and I believe also a debate on rural housing policy is also well overdue and perhaps this will be the start of an annual debate on population decline I think that would be something all parties would like to see perhaps a key starting point though is also around language because referring to communities as remote is not a word which I've often helped help think helps this situation who would want to move somewhere which is considered remote and what message does that send so I think we also need to consider language when we're talking about the communities we hope people to to relocate to and to bring up their families in as well access to good affordable housing is the critical important factor in deciding often if someone is going to move or stay in a community with many rural areas suffering from a lack of affordable housing and developing innovative housing solutions is vital and often these will be small scale in their nature and the Scottish government has committed to 10 percent of the 110,000 homes target to be located in rural and island communities and I welcome that but increasingly questions are being asked over its deliverability the local government and housing committee has heard about the decline in the number of small and medium sized builders which may practically also affect all these developments potentially ever happening in rural communities the committee has also heard evidence on the importance of rural housing enablers and the community led housing to develop new affordable homes in rural areas and we've heard a lot from rural members on that today community land Scotland said that there are unnecessary complexities to funding and planning processes and I think that's something across parliament we need to look at so the Scottish government's forthcoming rural and remote housing action plan needs to urgently address all of these issues if we're going to meet the homes which rural and island communities need as Donald Cameron has said we know that the SNP green government has only spent around half of its rural housing fund and its island housing fund since they were both made available in 2016 so I hope that will be prioritised to developing new models that can present an opportunity to also bring empty housing stock back into use and that's been raised by a number of members research by Scotland's rural college has indicated the possibility of setting up for example an empty house bank and the Japanese aka bank approach for example where local authorities are able to list unused houses for sale and rent with the goal of attracting incomeers to use them and I think that's something in rural areas we should look towards as well. Presiding Officer there is one part of Scotland which is bucking the trend and that's here in the capital and Edinburgh in the south east of Scotland continues to be resilient and is the only part of the Scottish economy which has been consistently and continuously growing and I welcome that and as an Edinburgh MSP along with the cabinet secretary the challenges which our communities face are also important and something I think needs to put on record around those as well. Scottish Government is now presiding over the lowest levels of funding for NHS Lothian as well as the lowest level of funding for Edinburgh city council at the same time as we are seeing the population increases and the demands that that brings so the financial sustainability of delivering public services is becoming more difficult to deliver here in the capital and it's something which I think SNP and green ministers need to recognise and for these formulas to genuinely now be revised and reviewed. The fact that levels of homelessness and children living in temporary accommodation are now at their highest level anywhere in Scotland here in the capital is a direct consequence of not being able to deliver on our housing needs and that's something I think ministers need to really understand. Attracting people to live and work and contribute to our... Yes I think I've got plenty of time. I'd like to thank Miles Briggs for taking an intervention. I'm just wondering how the rocketing increase in interest rates is going to help the Scottish Government to deal with that homelessness problem that we've talked about. Miles Briggs. Well in terms of... I think there's a number of factors going on currently in the housing market we're soon to see a rent controls bill next week brought to this parliament which could see fewer homes also made available so unintended consequences is something the Scottish Government also very much need to be aware of and it is important to also consider the powers which this Scottish Government have and what they have done because what message does it send to a rural community or island communities if that ferry service is not available to individuals and families who would want to move to these communities when they don't think those transport links exist and it's important also to consider the design of health services and that's not maybe someth