Welcome to How They Got Hacked episode four. Welcome for four. Wow, like a whole month of this. Whole month of this. Tom Lawrence, Xavier D Johnson, Maurice Nash. All right, so yeah whole month of this. That's we're figuring it out. We were actually discussing, you know there's so much that goes on before the show. If it wasn't between a lot of swearing and a lot of things maybe we can't talk about publicly, we should record it and have that show before the show. We've talked about that with my other podcast I do because the same thing happens. Like sometimes there's like an hour of, did you see this or did you see this? And we end up like with one set of show notes and then we spun off into it a whole another direction. And just before the first thing we'll do is I'm gonna talk about a couple corrections. I was wrong. You were right. Whoever, go clap right now. Clap for you. You, someone on the other side of that camera. I said steal and it was an aluminum company and there was a couple details. But details matter. They matter a lot. I skimmed the article because it was a really, you know, hot topic and I want to talk about it. But yeah, the company did get hacked, did get crypto, locker, locker, go go, did get them. The other parts were true. I left links to all the articles and even some point out the article you linked to has the correct information. I said, I know I skimmed it wrong, but I'll admit it. I did, but that's why I always leave all my sources. I'm not just spitting ideas off my head. So there. But the other thing I want to jump into is someone emailed me and asked me if I could get them information on the accounting firm. And I cannot. And the reality is, it's not, there's not anywhere that this is published. There's not anyone, it's not like these companies that get hacked, go and reach out to the news going, Hey, you want to do a story on how we got hacked? They're not going to matter of fact, they want no, they want to forget about the incident. They didn't want to have to tell their clients what they did. They followed compliance. They did all the things you're supposed to do. But you're not going to find a public write up on these things. And it's kind of this is some of the stories I want to bring out and bring the light is it's kind of a race awareness. Because when you think too many people think I'm just trying to scare, I'm going, Oh, you want to sell me cybersecurity? Like, no, these companies get hacked. They don't get in the news. Where where would someone publish this information? Only when these companies get sued, would you even find any public information?  And then it's buried in there. And I commented last time that some of the people I know when they posted my forums like skip Olivia, they post some of the legal briefings about when the companies did things wrong. He actually posted one. I think it's about the emails. I don't know if either you read it. But it was a company tried destroying emails and got sued and things like that. But once again, you wouldn't know until there's a lawsuit. But by the time the lawsuit happened, the event that triggered it was three years prior. So it's so far out of the news when this stuff gets settled. Everyone's long sense forgot, you know, because we we have about a 15 minute attention span were raged about something new every five minutes. Right. That part is there is something new every five minutes that yeah, it arranges us. Yeah. So it's hard to follow up with the prosecutions and things like that. Second, I will, speaking of that, I will briefly as something popped in my head. And I didn't really share with these guys about it, but you know, talking about these companies to get hacked, I found an answer to something I didn't know about a company that got hacked, we get called in, and I got to talk to the technician on site that actually took care of it. So I got called by a company, and I didn't want to pay what it was going to cost to have their 80 systems, 80 computer systems unlocked from Crypto Locker, no backups, no nothing, nothing set up properly. They had Raider Rays because Raider Rays are backups, right? But when you encrypt it, it's it's well redundantly encrypt now. So my advice to them was to pay the ransom, because I gave a price on basically new can pave start over their whole network, as that was my suggestion. They thought that was unreasonable. I said, the next option to be pay the ransom, they said that's we don't pay terrorists. I'm like, okay, good. That's what the FBI is going to tell you to do. Yeah, they said you if you don't have back, I was to pay the ransom. And so they ended up I found out that the other company they got the bid they called someone else that they knew and the guy put a lot of billable hours, they paid the ransom, and it still cost them a lot of money, not just for the ransom, but to the billable hours to run around putting the key in and everything unlocking it. So unfortunately, it was a really boring phishing email, someone clicked on it. No segmented networks. Oh, yeah, this is this is like they called me wanting me to help them do all this. And it's funny because I crossed paths at an event with the technician. And I was like, they paid the ransom that they released information. Yes, he did. Because a lot of times you paid a ransom. Oh, these guys are good. Run away. These guys are good. They were professionals. The people who did the resume and they unleashed it and they got their documents back. So that was great. What if they still just had a beachhead sitting there waiting to press the button to re-encrypt or backup or backup? My advice is to once you get that data back of the data back the documents up cross your fingers that nothing was planted in there. And then set it aside new can pay put it back. That's Yeah, I they didn't do that. They're very there. They're low budget tech on technology. They're a big, big company that a big company that does not want to spend money on security. That's how they got themselves in the situation in first place. And they're right for that situation. Again, this is about a year and a half ago, the event occurred. But it's so funny. I ran into the technician, I recognized him. And we were talking about like, Yeah, I think you were the other one they called for he goes, I was I'm gonna did it. I'm like, Oh, so we sat down here. Let's talk about how that story went. Once again, this company's big. If you're in Michigan, they somehow affect you as much as I can say they're not my clients.  And it happened, but there's nothing in the news about it, not even a blurb. So once again, there's not write ups, there's not a lot of times I can point you to this. That's why we want to share these stories is because that's the kind of stuff going on. If if it doesn't news, don't worry, we leave links. I've never hiding my sources. But this is this going on all the time you only hear about like said, it's star hotels. It's a big company because then it's once you affect, you know, the quantity of people in here, you can't avoid the news. Usually they say face why they don't disclose this information. Yeah, they don't want to talk about it. And then it's just damaging their reputation. It is. It is. And then it's also letting people know that you guys probably weren't doing good cybersecurity, things like that that kind of ends up as the topic on there. But or they told their shareholders that they were doing good cybersecurity. Exactly. And they were getting assessments and giving reports to customers and giving reports to shareholders that still didn't paint the whole picture. Exactly. And you know, it's it's kind of a mess like that. And we go through PCI DSS compliance. Hey, Willie, if you're out there, I know he's someone who I've referred to a few times. He's a friend of mine on channel. He's done a lot of this PCI DSS.  So another friend, he's fails his PCI compliance because he's got security cameras on his network. That fails your PCI compliance. The two things are not related at all. But if you have a port open on your IP address, they think, oh, that's a security risk. Any ports open security address for PCI without SSL has to have a signed SSL. So if you open a port without a signed SSL, you're out of PCI compliance. But the camera system is a physically separate network than its credit card system. But that's the problem. That's when bureaucracy gets in and these audits are hard to do and then they're also don't make any sense. It's because I will tell you every major breach when it comes to this credit card stuff, they were all PCI compliant companies. Star Wars PCI compliant. Target was PCI compliant. Dave and Busters was PCI compliant. Dave and Busters PCI. Yeah. So many of them. So that's why it's so hard for these computers. It's not an audit trail that, hence, you know, the laws and etc. So we'll jump off this topic because let's talk about ponying and owning. Yes. Ponying and owning a Tesla maybe. Oh man. Do I get to keep the Tesla if I own it? You get to keep the Tesla. Oh boy. You literally get to own if you own.  Very much incentive out there. Not to mention the team that won it. We'll leave a link to this. But this is the Pone the Home Vancouver 2019. Wrapping up and rolling out. Rolling out with the Tesla. So every year they do the Pone Own Competition. Now there's a little bit of a controversialness of it because this is where I like the model that Hacker One has better than what the Pone Own. Pone Own has been around for a while. It's where people bring their favorite zero days that they've acquired and really worked hard to find and then own different systems though. So they have to walk in only using whatever crafting tools they have like a well-crafted website and try to get some of the click on it and try to gain vulnerability. But the scariness of it is if, you know, March 22nd is when they wrapped up the Pone Own Competition. If on March 23rd they find out our zero day that's 364 days where, one, they hope no one else finds it, two, they hope it doesn't get patched or anything else before they get to find it.  So right after Pone Own there's patches in everything. Tesla, VM, everything else. So it's pretty cool how it works, but that's where the Hacker One model, as soon as you get something on there they get to pull it back out and they submit it to the vendor. So as soon as you figure out the zero day and you can prove it to Hacker One you get paid. Yep, nice. Getting paid is always nice. Getting paid is always nice. I mean, but getting good Tesla is always better. I like it. They hacked the Tesla infotainment system. That was uh... I don't think I can talk about my experiences with infotainment. Yeah, but it's one of those edge cases that, because it's so integrated on there, but they did it. Yes, so as far as my knowledge goes, infotainment is at ring zero. In some cars out there, allegedly, there is a system in which the infotainment is the bridge. It is actually passing the signal along for the CAN bus. Because the CAN bus is a network, right?  That's where all the good stuff lives. Yeah, so it's kind of interesting. I believe they browse to a web page with the Tesla. That was the Tesla hack on there. So clever. Probably a webkit bug. Yeah, a webkit bug. The real impressive one, now this is the part that took me by surprise and to me stood out. So one, they were able to escape a virtual machine. So specifically VMware player, they were able to get a crafted web page to escape to the host operating system. Now if you're familiar with how hosting environments work, they run as a series of virtual machines or sometimes stalkers. So it's different types of virtualization. But obviously escaping, let's say I rent a VM at a hosting company for my own use, but escaping out of that is supposed to be impossible, as we hope. But that's where the most prize money is paid out. So we've talked about Hacker One. There's a shadier company out there called Zerodium. Zerodium is not like Hacker One. Zerodium sells to undisclosed clients these type of exploits. Regimes. Probably regimes. Okay, definitely regimes. Yeah, they sell the clients that would be considered a regime. And so they offer quite a bit of money. So a VM escape right now, I believe is going for roughly a million dollars on Zerodium. And I'm impressed with the skill, because here's the thing. If you sell your zero data Zerodium for an escape on VMware, you do not get to ever speak that you did it.  So that's where Zerodium is messing up versus Pone to Own. Pone to Own on the other side is all about putting your name on lights, chief of the Pone, everything else. They didn't take away a million dollars from that competition. And that one, just the one hack, I mean don't want to give me wrong, tell us that's cool. But just that one hack of that VMware probably would have fetched them way more money over on Zerodium. But that's not the hacker way. These guys are true hackers as far as I'm concerned. They're not the kinds, they're not trying to screw over people, they're not trying to sell it to a regime. So that's my thoughts on that. It's impressive. I'll leave the write up. There's a ton of other great teams out there that hacked a lot of things. I don't have time to cover all of them. Ethos, right? Keeping close to the hacker ethos and making sure that you don't allow the things that you're researching to be weaponized. Right. That's a part of our, that's the responsibility of anyone who's looking for, or turning over rocks and looking for bugs in software. Yeah. It's one of the things that's why we're sitting here. We're talking about it. We're sharing with links, tools, how we did things. My tutorials on this channel outside of this, it's all about sharing knowledge. I like taking stuff apart. And I got, you know, you go to one of these hacker meetups and shout out to those. I was not able to make it myself, but some people came out to DC 313. Thank you for the people that watch and came out to DC 313. You are appreciated. Please come back and for those of you who haven't been out to DC 313, please come out to DC 313. We will enjoy you joining us. Yeah. So that's what, you know, we're there just to sit around talk tech, share knowledge and things like that. That's the world I grew up in. And that's what got me more into tech when a bunch of people can share it. So, and now I'm taking that skill so you know, the video platform to share it. And that's that, these guys are close to that hacker ethos because I mean, of course the other side is, I know they're itching to drop it of how they did it. They have, I forgot how many days they have the patch. If it's, I think the standard 90 days closure, they gave to VMware to come up with a patch for they can tell because it's one thing to win it, but then to say how they want it, that they get their name and lights again in a couple of weeks when they go, all right, now that they're patched because they won't release the source code to what they did until it's patched and you know, they're going to be dropping on GitHub. That's a whole new show. How to poem to own. How they poem to own. To poem to own. Well, we're going to work on that too. I'm going to, like I said, that's, I finished my big project. I said that on a day in my vlog. So I know who and so I'm going to be able to produce more videos. I want to get back to it. But I want to do a couple of those. Me and Xavier, I think me and him can tag team where I'll do like a walk through. And I'll jump in that next. So this Sequoia Cyber Security Solutions, this write up, a pentesters guide, part one, OSNT passive recon and discovery of assets. This is legal stuff. These are things that like you can do legally. Yes. And you will not get in any trouble for it. No one will come and knock on your door. Yep. This is passive. He's not actively trying passwords, not doing this all reconnaissance to try to figure out what pieces of information you can gather. And this is just an excellent, I love this write up. This is well crafted. I'm looking forward to part two. Oh, he's got part two on here. He must have published it since I looked last time. And this is show notes. Part two, LinkedIn, not just for jobs. So he takes you through that next step of what you do with the information. Oh, what? And this is one of those walkthroughs of a combination of finding the websites, social engineering. How do we look up what domains they have? You know what he doesn't mention in here, but MxToolbox has a really cool feature. I don't know if you knew about this. So you can go to MxToolbox. You can put in someone's host and they'll tell you who else is shared on all those IPs. Every other domain that they can find crawling the internet shared on that same IP range. I don't want it. That's a lot of information. So it's what they don't talk about that pivot in here. He does it differently because he does a bunch of domain names scraping with Google and reverse engineering because what you're looking for is all the subdomains. You can guess a lot of them. Mail.thecompanyname.com, remote, RDP, gateway, VPN.thecompanyname.com, all the different DNS. It's funny, he's pulling all them up here. And it's sad because those are, companies are not creative in that. We come up with... DC.companyname. Oh, I know. Yeah. What Northrop Domain Controller is. DC. Yeah. And this is all stuff. It's like I said, it's all passive.  And it's sad because that is, you know, when we set stuff up, I try, even though I know it's a little bit of security through security, at least it's not mail.thecompanyname.com. How about this? I'm not anti-security through obscurity. Right? I think that security through obscurity is another layer. Yeah. I am anti only having one layer. Right? Right. So think about this the normal way. Right? Throw in some obscurity. Throw in some, you know, routing. Throw in some rules on the firewall. Make sure that you have multiple layers into what the, you know, crown jewels are. Oh yeah. And just things like putting SSH on an odd port number. You know how much that just reduces your logs? Because the script kiddies are all day looking at default ports. Because don't worry, there's enough default ports open to keep people busy. 22 and I will also try 2222. Yeah. Yeah. So put them at a little bit of an odd number. I'm also going to try 1039. Because I don't know about you guys, but if you try and do like a release upgrade, they have to spin up that second SSH dammit on that nice low point of 1039. And I'd love to attack your system while all of its defenses are down because it's upgrading. That sounds like fun to me. Yeah. There's those, you got to watch for all those. So lock it all down. I can't believe people still use default. Just default credits. Oh man. All day, all day. Root tour. That's my favorite. When I go on to these hacking labs, right, like virtual hacking labs, the OSCP, what's another way that we do? Hack the box. They all tell you not to do exactly what I'm telling you that I do. I know, I know. I'm going to get comments about this. But if you just take the second that it takes to run a scanner and do add a root and tour as the username and password, you will own so many noob hackers that is scary. Yeah. It's scary how many the hackers get owned that way. Admin, admin. Well, they sell hacking kits now. So it's like if you think you want to get into it and you get some kid, he's got a few dollars and he doesn't want to take the time to actually learn, oh, I'm going to get into this real quick. He goes on, you know, wherever. I'm not going to say wherever. You go buy the kit and then they never even changed a password for it. It's just, but at least they get pwned and it just gets, you know, it becomes an entertaining. There you go. You just use up all of his licenses by activating this crime kit everywhere. You know, we got, we got so distracted last time, you know, we didn't talk about was the hackbacks. Oh yeah. Hacking back. Hacking back. So is that illegal? And maybe this is, Oh yeah, we didn't talk about the hackbacks. Yeah. So hacking back. This is the gray area. Super gray. Super gray. Let's say your company's under attack. You don't know who the attacker is. And this is all hypothetical. Not that this occurred or maybe anyone actually did this for their company to defend against it. But then you find out the script kitty who's really annoying, also left it at perhaps the default admin and password. The minute you type the password and you have now broke the law and you're very traceable, they can technically, but of course it would come at the expense of revealing themselves, come after you for that. But maybe you're doing everyone a favor by deleting your command and control servers and everything else and stopping a problem that's there. Where do you lie on that? This is where the morality of the gray hat black hat. Guilty smiling guy next to me. Why are you smiling, Mom? But this is one of those things that you run into occasionally of where do you land on this? There almost has to be, at some point, some type of rules established. I mean, we have similar equivalencies.  It's dangerous. I mean, I think that should be a thing. I mean, really, heck, you should be able to have that. You can have a concealed weapons permit. You can have a concealed weapon. If you are shot at, you may shoot back. That's pretty clear. There's no similar equivalency right now in the hacking world. I mean, there is, just be it's happening. There's not any laws around it and trying to explain that to a judge. So you're broken up here, says, no, dude, the guy was trying to hack me. I went and typed admin, admin. I said, delete, man. You did what? What does this mean? What is it like? Right. Speak to your judge. Do you ever have enough time sorting out non-technical things? Oh boy. Yeah, this is a sticky one. I always tell people, just for the record, I'm throwing this out there, you should not hack back. Right. Just make sure that that's understood. I think that hacking back, although it is gratifying, you can find yourself in a situation that you can't get yourself out of. This is true. In the rare event that you're under attack by some crime mob in St. Petersburg, how do you know that they don't have a local chapter? Right.  Yeah, what if they're not hacking back and they're just coming to your house instead of in on fire? Right. And you do what you can. Context, yeah. We're going to extreme route here, but generally speaking, you lay up your defenses, block the ranges that they're coming from and things like that. You double down, lock down, that's the proper things to do. You can get DDoS protection. You can do whatever it is that they're doing against you. The good news is at least you've identified where it's coming from and you pinpoint it. I have a block list that I've had to create where people I showed them and I talked to them before how I do this when I see people poking it.  Done. Done. So, you know, and it's funny if they ever call me, they make notes of why I blocked anyone on my firewall side. I make notes of why they're blocked. So if I were going to call, hey, I can't get to something. I don't know what's your IP address. Really? That's fascinating. It looks like you were scatting me from all your IP cameras. In 2018, you were on January of 2018, you were the guy that I made a note about in my journal here. That's interesting.  It's... But we need to deal with it at some point. I think there needs to be some laws addressed by it because picture companies that are much larger in scale or the size of Amazon. If Amazon pokes back at a nation state that pokes at them, does that start off something big? Amazon's got enough data center power and they're quasi-government entity. The Amazon government servers are the largest. They are the largest hoster of government. So is that a government attack? If Amazon DDoS Russia... That's a lot of cyber war. It's a cyber war, but who's responsible? Is that an American attack against them? What if the government leaves servers who initiates it? Did Jeff Bezos press the... What was that? A non-tool. The low... The Ion Cannon. L-O-I-C. L-O-I-C. Low orbit Ion Cannon. Yeah, what if... What if Bezos has got one of those buttons? He's like, I'm gonna turn the Internet off today. This has to be addressed at some point. I mean, these are serious topics. We laughing about it, but you know, I want to know, Jeff Bezos got someone who... Those pics ain't coming out today. I'm gonna turn the Internet off. Yeah, I'd imagine he has that button, but I don't think he uses it often. He doesn't make money on the days the Internet's off. I don't get my prime membership shipped to me, so... Yeah, the ethics around hacking back, I think is more so where we're at in our discussion, right? I think it's less legalities, right? When there's... When there are no legislation around a certain thing or a certain topic, it all comes down to ethics. Like, how do you feel about hacking back, right? Me personally, I find it to be... I mean, beyond gratifying or rewarding because you're getting back at someone who's probably caused so much damage, I find it to be putting a target on your back, right? Because you are now perpetrating the exact act that you're trying to defend against. Right, yeah. So as a hacker, you don't want to be attacking random systems. So think about it from a hacker's perspective. If I'm a black hat, I'm gonna attack you but not from my laptop. I'm sorry.  You're gonna pivot off of other networks to make it really hard to find you. So now you're hacking back based on what? Those IP addresses? Right. You may be just attacking the daycare. Right. So like... It gets you in a gray area real quick. It's not the best way to do it. You know the FBI. Yeah. Because they can do things like that because then they can get permission because this is... Krebs has done some good write-ups on this of how they do that reverse investigative. And this requires cooperation with authorities because he had someone attacking him. They got to the point of shipping drugs to him. It's one of the most incredible stories he's got written up and they thought they're gonna bust him. But he didn't know that by the time they tried to bust him with drugs, he'd already got their email passwords. And he's already working with authorities like these guys are after me. So that was what got them caught was the shipping of stuff to him to try to... Wow. Get him caught. Get him caught. Revealed their real name because the email didn't reveal the real name but he had some of the inside. But he completely... This was cooperating with the authorities to make all this happen. And that's an important aspect of it because they can stop by that daycare that that IP address is registered to. Have you guys never watched the movie Hackers? Like this happened, right? The dude was like, man, we got breached. He got the computer fraud and abuse act Black Dude involved to kick in everyone's door. And he was the one that was doing the hacking. This is a terribly good movie from forever ago and I'm gonna watch it again. And Angelina Jolie is beautiful in that movie. She is, she is. Oh man, bring me back to the... I don't know, I don't know. I've spent a while since I watched it but I need to watch it again. That's what the best.  Die like the rest. And I had Penjaledi in there. He's also here on mine. Oh yeah. So anyways, enough of that. Next thing, let's talk about Asus. Oh my God. Did a video on it, diving in a little, talking about some of the implications and we're all very fascinated by this because this is a supply chain attack. And I want to do soon another video related to one. I hope there's a debrief because we all don't know what happened. Everyone's being quiet about it. The other reason I'm bringing it up is because we now know what the 600 MAC addresses are. We don't know who they are. We know what they are. And another security team decided to reverse engineer the binary download that was provided by Kaspersky to determine whether or not your computer contained it. They would do a hash to determine, but they would not reveal what those 600 were. They would just give you a yes or no if your computer was on said list of 600 MAC addresses. So someone else reverse engineered that, which they walk through the write-up and it's beautiful code. They talk of every step of the way. I'll leave Lincoln to show notes because it's very, very detailed of how they used every piece to reverse engineer the hash and reverse engineer the salted hash, it turns out. So they cracked the salted hash, but they did so because they had one MAC address to start with to identify where it was in a compiled binary and reversed it back out. So they showed off their skills being able to reverse engineer it. So I was impressed because Kaspersky didn't just drop them in there, they hashed them in there. So it was equal plus there's some head starts if you're not sure how MAC address works. The first few octets of every MAC address is denoted to the manufacturer. So my Lenovo, the same octet is actually going to be on that one over there because IBM Lenovo is the same thing. So they had a little bit, so it's not like they had to do this, even though it's a strong hash, it's low entropy because there's not that many options. There's a lot, but not as many. It's half as many, right? Yeah, half as many. We roll it. So that's a fascinating rate up at the attack. We just don't know how it happened or how they acquired the 600, but somehow there are 600 computers that they're looking for that this tool activates on. Only 600. I mean ASUS sells millions of computers, but only 600 of them. How'd they get the list? This is where someone like originally social engineering, like did you tip off a salesperson? I got 600 laptops destined for Washington DC. They're headed towards, or a bank. These 600 laptops are headed to the C suite of this bank. We know who ordered it. We know where they're destined, generally. We know one of these 600 is going to the CEO of the company, the CFO of the company. One of those people are getting it. That is targeted. That is razor sharp. That's poking a pin at it. That is, I'm really impressed. That is impressive. That's advanced persistent. Well, they have the advanced persistent threat. It's on ASUS. So they, how long were they in ASUS? Seems to be a fuzzy question. They found this on, for going back to, I think it was September. It's quite a while. Don't don't very correct me on it. I will leave a link in there. And I did it. I did get the date right in my first, my video I did dedicated this, but picture this, they had it sitting there for a long time. And then they knew these 600. So they've already got ASUS. They've got something inside their company. They're able to push to all that live update. And it's a driver update. So this runs at the system level, which means it can bypass whatever and it's signed by ASUS's security cert. So it's passable. It's a driver. It can install things. It's job is to reach out. It's on ring zero. Ring zero. It's job is to reach out the internet and install things like drivers at the lowest system level to get things done. Because you need a driver update to keep you safe. But this tool, which is a trusted tool, was waiting for a MAC address when it found it, then it downloaded a payload. So it's actually, the Kaspersky's write-up is interesting how they even figured it out because they did not have one of the 600 laptops where that would have keyed it off. But it's just impressive and targeted. And it is the, it has to be a nation state behind it. The level of engineering it takes to pull this off is not arbitrary. But then again, we've seen things we thought were nation state that it turned out to be, you know, Geohot. Just like, or like, what did Trump say? A 400 pound hacker. 400 pound hacker. I mean, this person's really good, but the weirdness of the targeting doesn't make me think you're a standard hacker. They don't do things like target 600 computers. That's not a, We would just hit all of them. They hit all of them to get their name and lights. I hacked this. I hacked ASUS. I got it on a million computers, whatever.  Not your name and lights. Because if your name is in lights, there's some red and blue lights coming after you. You don't want your name in there. But the, so it's really interesting. I'm hoping, you know, we can keep up on the story as it develops and hopefully some information gets dropped on here. I really want to know who the 600 ours is. But yeah, that's, That's crazy. So speaking of trusted tools, you want to talk about the office max incident? It's not really hacking, but it's deception and scamming for sure. When the companies you think are protecting you, this is why you should never go to office max. And this is great.  It was an investigative report. It was tipped off of, I think by one of their staff members inside and said, Yeah, that's tool. It lies. You pop it in. It says there's these problems with your computer and we claim to secure it. And it doesn't PC checkup. Yeah, it's a PC checkup. PC checkup. That's given to you from the company bought the computer from. Good old Mac. Yep. Good old Mac. And then explain what happens after that.  It tells you, you have all these problems and you have to come to us and pay all this money to get them fixed. Yeah. Yep. All this money to the tune of $330 million. $330 million. They have a $30 million fine. $30 million fine. The FTC has cited against them and has charged them $30 million. Yeah. This is one of the things I hate. It's this false sense of security. You just lied to consumers. And the way they busted them, and I demonstrated my video, the way they busted them was some inside people took a laptop, took it to the Office Macs, had them do the PC checkup cleanup, right? Certified to clean. They went to the three more Office Macs and each one of them kept finding the same problems over again and charging them the same thing again. Wow. Literally, here's your receipt from the Office Macs for an hour ago type thing and here I'm at the next one and oh no, you have this problem, this problem. Let me tell you this. Let me tell you this. It's like, no, I don't. I mean, that's pretty deceptive. It's just deceptive. I don't think a fine is enough. I don't think a fine is enough. Ooh, I want two more. Because you're really dealing with people's personal information. Would you like them to be tarred and feathered, Moe? Vlog, ten lashes. Vlog, ten lashes. We'll go with those. Vlogging of all the executives responsible for this. Oh man. So it's safe to say that we're never going to get an ad. If you see an Office Depot or Office Macs ad, that's ironic. It feels unlikely. It would be ironic if it shows up on here because we're talking about Office Macs, Office supplies. Hopefully it's keywording on this. I'd love to see their ad on there because I know none of you are going to buy from it. Hopefully it's the ad of them getting flogged. So it was a little exciting when we were talking about that. I thought that was interesting. I mean, back to false security, they lure people in. And unfortunately, when it comes to the PC computers, I didn't agree with this. No. When it comes to businesses, I say yes, but PC computers like your home computer, just use Windows Defender or things like that.   And these companies all want to sell you something upsell, upsell, upsell for your home PC stuff. I don't find it. I tell even some people we've got like their banking. We have some clients who don't just get a Chromebook separate. You just put everything on a, put your, that on a Chromebook separate because nothing can be loaded on it. It's locked down. You're not, you know, don't mess with it. Don't side load it. And then use your other PC for this. I mean, there's a lot of security you got to go through. And with the business stuff, the only reason I recommend even the tools we use for business is because we actively monitor and watch everything they're doing, making sure they're up to date and everything else. So we're, you know, on it for our clients. If you're not on it, just use Windows Defender. It's just as, just as good. Or you could just not use Windows. Or you could just not use Windows and use Linux. And I am doing a video soon on that particular topic because a lot of people ask about using Linux. Is it more secure? There's the answer is not as definitive as you might think, but the trust chain model, because if you're, if you're worried about the Asus hack but you're running Linux, I'm not worried.  And I'm not, people like, oh, you use Lenovo. They were caught doing that. I'm like, yeah, but I run Linux, but it doesn't matter. And because the, the chain of trust is what's important. So I'm going to do a video centered around how trust chains work and how signing certificates work and how that makes Linux very different from Windows for how you run things and how there's less risk and the risk mitigation. And it's not Windows fault. It's your fault for not using Windows, but the way Windows works, the way Windows use it, the way you're loading software on it is the problem. And Windows came out with a solution called Windows S, but then you can't run the programs you want. So you're back to the square, one of untrusted programs. I'm not going to spiral off into the details. So that's going to be safe for a separate video to talk about that. But chains of trust are what keeps that in order. That's how these businesses that do lock things down that aren't in the news, chains of trust, sign certificates, signing their own certificates for software, that's the way to do it. There you go. And Linux does it that way. So. Lay down the law. Bam. And the last thing we're going to talk about is I brought up GeoHot. So has he lost his mind yet? He's working on it. Working on it? He's GeoWarm right now. GeoWarm. He's a genius. Hands down, bow down to the level of sophistication if you don't know and look him up. I love GeoHot. Yeah, self-driving cars or anything else. But this video popped up. I couldn't help it because he's engaging. If he's, if he's having an hour talk, he didn't. And he's giving a talk about life is a simulation. Life is a simulation. Other people have touched on that, but he just kind of. He spent a lot of time thinking about it. A lot. It's not a drug induced rancher or anything like that. Not at all. Are we sure? Positive. I'm positive. Positive. And I actually I liked his answer when someone asked about do you do drugs to figure out for your simulation?  It doesn't miss the simulation. And he said, he does comment though. It might cost some more CPU time though.  I don't think he's completely crazy. I enjoyed it. So you watched The Matrix. You watched The Matrix. I think he's watched it too. A few times. He's watching a few too many times. What happens when you're so good at hacking? When you're geo hot? When you can just do, the guy's a pure genius. All these hacks are brilliant. He's got to give me the zero day for the simulation hack then. Well, and that's got to escape the simulation. That's what he talks about. It's how to escape that. He dives into it from his hacker mentality. Okay, I got to watch it. You have to watch it. I got to watch it. I'll leave a link so you guys can watch it too. It's actually one of those. It's real like meta and things like that. But it's so kind of fun to watch. It's all provoking. Yes. His his take on it. We'll give you an idea. A little teaser here is, does Mario know he's in the simulation? Because we're the gods of Mario when we're playing. Is Mario aware? This is when they insert the Elon Musk smoking pot with the eyebrow look. Yeah. Are we in a simulation? I mean, it's really interesting and he breaks down a lot of interesting concepts, a lot of thought provoking stuff in there. It's fun. But I did start watching it. My first, you have to go through at least the first 10 minutes before you realize, okay, he's still rational. He's still having rational thoughts. Shout out to GeoHot. Yeah. GeoHot, if you're watching, we love you. I'm sure he's not watching. If you watch this one day. If you're watching this simulation, we watched yours. So I think that's about it. We're going to wrap up. Anything else to add? No, I have nothing special to add. Thank you for all of the fans. Thank you to everyone who came out to DC 313. Yes. And to the other numerous fans that I've met that are watching the show that haven't been to DC 313. Please come by to DC 313. And yeah, that's it for me. Should we give a shout out to the Facebook fan you have that's going hard in the pain on your Facebook account? No. All I can say is it's hard for me to log into my Facebook. So have fun, bro. Yeah. To FA, man.  I guess it's intense. I'm at FA all day. I'm at FA all day. Throw the M's up. All right, man. Later. Until next time. Until next time.


And we are live. What's up guys? Welcome back to another episode. Today's special guest is Brian Hoffman. Now here's his quick bio. Brian's background is in computer science from James Madison University, which has led him to head several successful government and commercial projects during his career. Brian is currently the project maintainer for the newest venture, OpenBazaar, and the CEO of OB1. Brian began OpenBazaar when he forked the open source code from the 2014 Toronto Hackathon. Fuck, I didn't know that from Toronto. Winning proof of concept, a dark market, a decentralized Bitcoin marketplace, and has gone to raise more than 4.25 million from notable VCs such as Union Square Ventures, a 16Z blue yard digital currency group. And he recently spoke at the conferences around the world and guest lectured at Berkeley on Bitcoin and OpenBazaar. Brian, welcome to the show. How are you doing, man? I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me on the show. Very cool. I didn't know that it was from Toronto. Tell me about that, man. How did that go down? Yeah, so actually, I wasn't there in person. But there was a Bitcoin hackathon that was part of the conference that was going on in Toronto back in, I think, April of 2014. And a bunch of guys got together and kind of came up with the idea for dark market. But mostly, it was driven by Amir Taki. I think it was his idea. He had been talking with a couple of the guys from AirBits and some others about the idea of doing this marketplace. And so I think they were trying to raise money for dark wallet at the time. And the award was like $20,000. So they kind of hacked together in 48 hours this simple proof of concept to show how this unstoppable Silk Road alternative could be created using Bitcoin. Yep, that was dark market. Amir Taki, I heard he's back on the dark wallet web stuff. I don't know about dark wallet specifically. I think right now he's trying to create some kind of educational program in Syria to like, it's like a Bitcoin bootcamp to get people like developers up to speed there and use it for like political action. But I think that's probably a poor explanation of what he's trying to do, but yeah. I hear you. So you've gone through a couple of iterations of OpenBizarre. You've recently, I believe, launched a new version of that. Can you kind of give us more detail about that? Yeah, sure. So the project's been around since 2014, obviously. And it's gone through several different versions. We spent about a year kind of hacking away at the proof of concept and just seeing what we could do, what we could come up with, getting a developer team together. And then when we got funding after about a year, we said, OK, well, now we have like $1 million. Let's hire some real full time devs that are going to just focus on this completely and bring some like a little bit more professionalism to the whole thing. And so we spent another year kind of rewriting all of it and putting out our 1.0 version, which came out in April 2016. It's the one that's like super blue. And we thought at the time it was going to be something that was like really, it would work really well and it had all these great ideas. And it turns out when people started using it, we discovered a lot of things that didn't really work that well, some things that worked well. And so we just decided to take a look at something called IPFS, which Protocol Labs is building. And it kind of targeted some of the problems that we were having with the existing software. And I mean, I can explain a little bit of that. But suffice it to say, it was a good option to move our network to that style of network. And so we switched over to IPFS and it caused us to have to rebuild the app once again. And so we're literally right on the, I think probably in the next few days, we'll release the final 2.0 version, which is completely rewritten on IPFS. And way better, we've been going through beta for about a month now. And we've had about I think something like 40,000 users so far on that. And it's gotten a lot of really great feedback. And people are already using it. So it's pretty exciting. And so for anybody who is listening who really doesn't understand what OpenBazaar is, what's the best detail explanation you can give for it? Well, I think the easiest way to get people to wrap their head around it if they're not super up on the space is it's a marketplace similar to an eBay or an Amazon, except that there's really no corporation or company behind it. And so what that means is you still go and you search for products or whatever and you buy them. But there's no web server. It's basically just your application talking to someone else's application directly. And through the magic of Bitcoin, obviously, you're able to basically do all the things that you would need a centralized marketplace to do. So eBay would, they provide the place to put your listings. They provide the escrow service. They provide customer support. All that stuff is provided by the company. And in OpenBazaar's case, there is no company. And so it's a lot more private, a lot more secure to do business with people directly, which is kind of the idea behind the name OpenBazaar. Bazaar is like a local marketplace where people go and they talk and they haggle. It's a much more intimate experience. And so the idea here is that we're not thrusting you onto this massive Amazon marketplace where a corporation manages it. You're actually talking with people. You can chat within the program. You can talk with them. You can do a lot more interesting things with it. And so right now, the only option for commerce is Bitcoin. Are you guys planning on adding other crypto into it? Yeah, so early on, we made the decision to just primarily focus on Bitcoin. I mean, in the very beginning, there wasn't really a lot of other options. I don't even think Ethereum was finished at the time. And the other altcoins had like nothing in terms of volume of usage. So we just wanted to keep it simple and stick with Bitcoin. But we ultimately envision OpenBazaar as a marketplace protocol that's agnostic to all the blockchains. In fact, we had a hackathon a little while back where some people hacked in Sprite payments, which was kind of interesting because you could pay with credit card. And that certainly could work. I mean, there's changes the way it functions, but we have a contracting system inside of OpenBazaar that is not tied to, it's not Ethereum smart contracts, it's not Bitcoin smart contract. It's just literally just like a contracting system that is completely blockchain agnostic. And that was on purpose. We want to be able to support all these different coins. So let's say I log into OpenBazaar, I see. So how easy is onboarding process? What does it take to get on OpenBazaar? So in terms of other marketplaces, it's pretty simple. Like you basically just download the desktop app. Right now it's only a desktop application, but it runs on Mac, it runs on Windows and Linux. You just download the app, install it. And then once you start the application, you're there. You have a store. I mean, all you have to do is create a listing, which takes a few minutes. There's no registration process because we're not collecting identity information or anything like that. There's no need to like, there's no login. It basically all running off of your own computer. So it's pretty quick. Like I would say less than five minutes, you can get a store up and running. So for example, in Amazon's case, they'll do all the shipping. They'll do logistics for you. And I'm assuming this is very similar to eBay where the individual himself would do the shipping. Yeah, exactly. So one of the benefits of having those big marketplaces is they have a lot of integrations with third-party services. They have a lot of tie-ins with fulfillment, shipping systems, which is a non-starter I think for some merchants. They have a whole workflow that they go through. So asking them to move off of that into something a little bit more rudimentary is probably a big ask. But you know, I mean the software is open source and so we're hoping that as we grow and more people come onto the platform and find it valuable that they'll help us build some of those integrations or work with us to try and tie some of that stuff in.  Like we don't see exactly what people are sending. We don't have access to the addresses that they're shipping to. Like there's no way to do that. So it presents an interesting challenge. But you know, we think that as we go we'll like start to tackle these things one by one. I'm curious stuff from a business standpoint. For example, he had notable VC such as Union Square, A16Z, et cetera. Have you guys given thought of going on in the future? Obviously users are the most important thing and how frequently they're using it and merchants using it. Have you guys given thought of new business models that OpenBizarre will create? Yeah, of course. You know, our thought process around monetization has changed so much from the beginning to like now. I mean, we started out with it wasn't ever designed to make money. I mean, it was just an open protocol that people could contribute to. Then we raised VC and obviously we had to like wrap our heads around the idea of actually making money. But it was super notional. Like even our investors, we got together and we said, look, this seems like an interesting idea. Like we don't even know if this can be monetized because we're trying to disintermediate all these other systems where they're charging fees and all this stuff. Like that's how they make their money. So our idea always was like, okay, look, we have this marketplace with this open protocol that we can't monetize or that we're like purposely keeping monetization out of. And where is the opportunity to make money? We think, okay, it's at the edges. So for instance, you mentioned like shipping integration. Okay, so maybe there's a way that we can provide some tools that tie into OpenBizarre, the protocol that we wouldn't want to bake into the protocol itself, but would still be valuable for serious merchants that are doing like large fulfillment, large shipping. Like we could build those integration tools and sell those services. And because we know OpenBizarre really well, we could build them easily and provide support and all that. So sort of like a, not necessarily like a red hat. Well Shopify is kind of like that. Even though you as a store owner, you pay a little bit. But if you're like a big store owner, you have to pay for all the extra applications on top of that. And it adds up like some of them like 20 bucks a month, 30 bucks a month, but you need like 10, 15 of those nonstop. Yeah, and actually, you know, I mean, the merchants that are serious, that are making a good amount of money are willing to pay for things that are useful. So that seems a reasonable expectation. The only challenge with that is that you actually have to have a marketplace that has enough users and enough traction to have a good customer base. You know, early on OpenBizarre doesn't really have that many users. And so, you know, like Obi-Wan hasn't really built any of those services yet. We dabbled with a couple of like hosting things, but there's not enough users yet to like really have a meaningful billion dollar business, which is what like these types of VCs are looking for. And when you talk about users, where are you finding most of the users that are coming from right now? So over the years, like mostly it's been like Europe and North America, which makes sense. Cause I think that's where, you know, the super technical people and, you know, a lot of like what Bitcoin normally is being used for is outside of like mining and stuff. But we are starting to see a lot more interest in India and in China. And, you know, there's a lot of business.   They're starting to raise their fees. They're starting to exert more control. They're kind of limiting a lot of like the way that they do businesses and changing their models up. And so I think that they're much more willing to like explore alternatives. And we're seeing that like, for instance, there's this like one guy who basically lives like really close to factories and he like negotiates deals and he can like do custom product orders and something like you really just, you don't see here in the Western world, but like is super available through Open Bazaar, which is like completely different. And it's a lot cheaper too because, you know, he's getting charged like 25% or something when he does it through Alibaba. So we're hoping that those types of merchants will come over and like find some value here. I didn't see possibility for business integration. For example, let's say a merchant accepting Bitcoin or Ether or whatever in the future and you need a rail system to convert that into Fiat to pay for your overhead. There could even be a business application there where you work with certain merchant accounts or banks for them to actually integrate with Open Bazaar. Yeah, so, you know, this is another like area where I think people like Obi-Wan would provide some extra value because we wouldn't necessarily like, we try not to like bake like a certain specific third party into the app itself. So there's one caveat. We do have shapeshift integration, which we made a compromise on that because we knew we weren't gonna be able to support altcoin payments for a while. So we allow people to pay using shapeshift in the app, but like we don't really have tie-ins to like coin base, for instance, to get out to Fiat or like, you know, Unocoin or whoever it would be. But, you know, there's no reason why people couldn't provide some kind of plug-in or something on top of that and do that and take advantage of that because you're right.  On a side note, viewing Open Bazaar, have you seen some interesting say patterns? Like, have you noticed certain products are being sold more than others? In the first version, it was like super random. You know, we saw like some merchants would do better than others, but it wasn't like one specific type of product that would do really well. You know, I think it's always an interesting question because the way that people ask it, it makes it seem like, oh, everything has equal opportunity to be sold. So like what's the most popular thing? But what really happens is it's more like, well, which merchants are out there pushing their products on Twitter or on Reddit or like Facebook and like who's marketing it better and who's got a better looking page and like there's a lot to it.  It's marketing yourself. And so the things that do really well sometimes are really odd. I mean, like we have like a huge comic book store.  When people browse, they see a lot of comic books and you know, like he does advertising and there's like other people that do the same thing. So, but I would say like overall the things that are selling the most are like clothing and like smaller priced items. I think people are still not quite willing to take the risk to buy huge things yet. You know, because it's a new system and they don't know if they can trust the vendors yet. In 2.0, we are seeing an interesting trend though. There is starting to be more people like trying to do some of the stuff from like dark net markets, which is a shift. We didn't expect that much in the first version because we didn't really have very good and anonymous support. So it wasn't really like a great option. In this version, we've put in tour and so we are seeing a little bit more traffic coming from those types of vendors but our search engine kind of filters out the illicit stuff. So it's there, but it's not really like first and foremost but we are seeing people use it. So that is one new area that we weren't really expecting. And you mentioned like India and China. Are there, I'm just curious maybe you know this answer. Are there countries in the world where people don't have access to eBay? Cool. Yeah, so eBay is interesting because eBay, the corporation I believe owns a bunch of like subsidiary marketplaces, right? So like I think they've acquired smaller e-commerce platforms like around the world. I guess that's easier than trying to figure how to get eBay into those areas and like supporting those countries. I know like in South America, I believe they have like Mercado Libre which is like an alternative that they own. So I think most of the world has some kind of option but they all have like separate rules and they don't have that reach. Like if you're selling things on Mercado Libre, I don't think that like somebody from the US can buy from you, right? So it's not like truly global marketplace. They're kind of more micro, you know for that geography. So, it really depends on which country we're talking about on how great their options are. So moving forward, where do you envision open Bazaar within say next year or two? So then over the next year, so 2.0 was really about like getting like the basic marketplace like working again. Like I said, we did that on 1.0 but we identified all these like kind of critical architecture problems. For instance, you have to run the store all the time, 24 hours a day if you want to have your store open. We kind of resolved that with IPFS and the new version. So you don't have to do that. So now we've kind of gotten this offer back to like the idea of just doing simple marketplace stuff. So the next year is really going to be focused on expanding that and doing new use cases. So one thing that we're going to be bringing out is something called channels. And right now when you open up open Bazaar, you kind of, you get a search page and it kind of just throws up some random stuff. And there's some categories suggested and things like that, but it's not a lot of like, there's not a lot of curation going on. It's really just like kind of a raw view of the network with channels. We're going to allow people to create things similar to like a Pinterest pin board. So you'd be able to like kind of configure how you want your own personal channel to look and you can curate it with like the products and services and things that you like. Sort of like a pin board and then people can like subscribe to those channels and see like new content and stuff. So it's going to give the users a chance to like really filter and like surface good stuff to the front. And then it'll make sense why you're like following accounts because in open Bazaar you can like follow any store or like any user. And there's not like really a lot that that does other than say that you follow them. But the idea is in the future that there will be like a feed. So, you know, if you're following some store and they have a discount code that they put out or they have a new product that comes out, you'll be able to get notifications about that. You know, it's basically just making it like much more robust and like more interactive. We want people to like think of open Bazaar as not just like a place to like run in and grab an item and get out. Like we want them to, we have chat in there for a reason. We have following lists for a reason. So all of that's going to get expanded over the next year. And then also, you know, just making it better, a better e-commerce platform, like starting to try and get closer to parity with the Shopify's and stuff so that it's actually a viable alternative. People really want to use it rather than think of it as like a very limiting platform. Sorry, I'll meet a quick question. For the reviews such as Amazon, are you guys going to be giving more say, focus on having people have more weight on reviews and open Bazaar? Yeah, like the review system is not like a super perfect solution right now. It's pretty basic. It's like enough to get by to be really honest. But yeah, we want to improve that. You know, like building a system, a reputation system that is not able to be gamed, that people really can trust is not an easy thing. It takes a lot of effort to do it right. We have, we funded some research in that area with a group called Trust Is Risk, which they're based out of Greece and they're working on like a whole system for how trust could be done, decentralized fashion. It's really, really fascinating. We're probably going to look at like how that might be integrated. And you know, right now you can only review merchants, like their products. You can't like buyers can't be rated, moderators can't be rated. So we want to like try and figure out how that could be done. So I think that'll be another interesting area that we work on. We don't really have any like clear plans yet on what that solution will be, but yeah, it's definitely an area that we know needs work. Great, and final question. What's your thoughts currently on the whole crypto space? Where do you see us in the next like a year or two? So I think, you know, I think what we're seeing right now is this, you know, over the last six to 12 months we've seen like this huge interest in creating alternative coins or tokens for different uses. And it's mostly only kind of like manifested in like huge amounts of capital being raised. Like we haven't really seen the result of that capital inflow. Like we haven't seen great products come out yet or anybody like proved traction because of that or any of these tokens like really get like massive usage beyond speculation. So I'm hoping that the next year we'll start to see some of the fruits of that. I don't know how much will happen. We might have a crash and like a lot of them go away or something, but you know, ideally I think with like two and a half billion dollars worth of investment into these projects, I think we should be able to see something interesting come out of them. You know, one thing I didn't mention is that we do want to, we're going to try and support other currencies on the platform over the next year. And you know, this, what shakes out of all this will be the ones that we focus on, you know. And in terms of like the kind of the legacy coins like Litecoin and Bitcoin and none of the token ones, you know, I think it seems like those guys are starting to kind of hunker down and position themselves as more of like this stable store value rather than like a transactional currency. And so, you know, for us, it probably will make more sense to start shifting towards, you know, encouraging people to use some of the other coins that are better for day-to-day usage. You know, we don't want to ask people like if the fees on Bitcoin go up to $20 of transaction doesn't make much sense to ask people to sell T-shirts for Bitcoin. And so we have to kind of be able to evolve with that. And we've spent a lot of time trying to like encourage Bitcoin community to like rethink that. And like, you know, we've been supporters of Segwit 2x because we want them to like, we want to push them to consider like our position, which is that we're trying to create a useful service on top of Bitcoin that people use daily, not just to store value, like, and we're trying to suss out whether or not that is possible. It seems like we're getting a lot of pushback for that. So, you know, I mean, maybe that's just not what it is.  So we have to kind of be able to adapt. So, you know, that's like a very rambling statement on where I think the space is, but it's complex, it's confusing. There's a lot going on and it's always moving really, really fast, so. Well, Brian, I appreciate you answering that question. I appreciate you coming on the show. If people want to get more information about you and OpenBizarre, what is the best resource? You can go to openbizarre.com and download OpenBizarre. I recommend you do it immediately. Yeah, do it, guys. There's a link below this video for OpenBizarre. And for me, you can find me on Twitter at BrianC Hoffman. That's the best place to find out what's going on with me. Awesome. Well, Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show and have an awesome day. Thanks.


In our last lecture we talked about the origins of the modern civil rights movement in the United States and we really looked at the major events between 1954 when the Brown decision is announced by the Supreme Court and 1964-65 when the Civil Rights Act and then the Voting Rights Act and the 24th Amendment are passed by US Congress and signed by the president Lyndon Johnson. And so we looked at this groundswell and this huge impact of civil rights movement on the United States during that decade. In this lecture we're going to talk more about what happened beyond 1964-65 and we're going to look at how the three aspects of this post-1964-65 movement. One of the things we're going to talk about is white resistance, white reactions against the civil rights movement. We're also going to talk more about the two approaches that those in the civil rights movement maintained. The integrationist approach largely personified by Martin Luther King here seen in this image on the left and a separatist approach for African Americans. In other words, an approach to separate from white society and sort of live a parallel existence, personified at least initially in some ways by Malcolm X here seen on the right side of this photograph. And so we're going to talk more about sort of these, about King, about Malcolm X and the different approaches that they had towards the civil rights movement, especially beyond 1964 and contrast this with, as I said, the white reaction against the civil rights movement both in the South as well as other parts of the United States. White reaction to the civil rights movement is certainly very mixed and I don't want to give the impression that whites as a whole were against it because there in fact were plenty of whites. There were many, many whites who were very much in favor of the civil rights movement who were participated and were involved in the civil rights movement in a variety of ways. But there certainly was a very perhaps conservative response, especially in the southern states against the civil rights movement. We already talked about massive resistance in the efforts by states and localities to challenge desegregation within the public schools as well as desegregation in various public institutions and private businesses and so forth. So this conservative reaction is a very important outgrowth of the civil rights movement. Now of course the South had, there had been sort of conservative movements since the 40s who were beginning to go frustrated with Democrats at the national level, Franklin Roosevelt and then Harry Truman who were the Democratic presidents during and then at the very end of World War II. And there were a lot of southern Democrats who were beginning to grow frustrated with Roosevelt and Truman's support of liberal institutions like the New Deal, their support of large government programs that had helped the United States get out of the Great Depression. And we began to see the growth of sort of a southern separatist, perhaps is not the best way of putting it, but a southern kind of separation movement, not in the sense of during the Civil War or a secession, but more of a sense of southern rights. In other words, the southern states demanded their rights and they felt that they were being trampled upon by the national government trying to impose desegregation or trying to impose these other institutions. And so as I said in the 40s, the first of these sort of efforts by southern states to sort of challenge the broader national agenda, especially in the Democratic Party, is the Dixie Crat Party where we have Strom Thurmond and Fielding Wright who run a separate campaign for the presidency because they don't agree with the National Democratic Party. We also see as the 60s go on and as civil rights become a very important part of the national kind of political agenda, growing conservative anti-civil rights movement, especially in the American South. Part of the argument for this is that many people felt that the U.S. was moving too quickly and too dramatically towards civil rights reforms, that the U.S. was just out of control and it needed to slow down because people couldn't change as fast as institutions. People's ideas and thoughts about civil rights, you know, took longer to change and this was the argument that many in this sort of conservative southern movement made. You also see a growing support for ideas of states' rights and a fear of an oppressive national government. This is something you see definitely in the South is the growth of these people's arguments about states' rights and how states should have more power to resist what the federal government wanted them to do. If states didn't want to integrate states as quickly as the federal government wanted them to integrate, well, they shouldn't have to. Someone who personifies this in the 1960s in the South is George Wallace, who runs for president. Wallace initially as a Democrat and then sort of becoming more of a third party candidate and Wallace really personifies this sort of states' rights, anti-civil rights movement policy of many people in the South. Law and order becomes a phrase that's commonly used to sort of associate with these people. They argue that they were the law and order candidates that civil rights was bringing about lawlessness and disorder and they were going to be the law and order candidate who would help bring about reform. And so in the 1968 election, Wallace ultimately runs his own campaign as opposed to the national democratic campaign. And this helps bring about a gradual shift in white vote in the South. In this election, 1960 election map, we can see here showing which states were won and which states were lost. Blue states would be Democratic states, red states, Republican states, and these are the states here in the South that vote for Wallace and kind of divide the Democratic vote. But this just anticipates a larger gradual shift in voting in the South, from the South being a very solidly Democratic region, which it had been since the Civil War, to a gradual shift to Republican voting in the South. And this certainly benefits Richard Nixon, who runs as a Republican for President in 1968, and pursues the so-called Southern strategy, trying to win votes from Republican voters in the South. And Nixon's very successful in Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, and other parts of the Upper South in winning these states and helping to win this general election from the Democrats. So this broader sort of frustration with civil rights reform, a sense that things were going too quickly, and this gradual shift of whites in the South from being solidly Democratic to being more in favor of the Republican Party, helps kind of reflect this broader uneasiness among some whites, and certainly, again, not all whites by any means, but among some whites to what was going on within the Civil Rights Movement, and helps really contrast what's going on in this particular period. So this is sort of the white reaction against the movement, as I said. Of course, as the movement continues, it's important to discuss how these two kind of wings of the Civil Rights Movement, I talked about Martin Luther King's integrationist wing and the separatist wing kind of personified by Malcolm X and others within the African American community came about. The Civil Rights legislation of the mid 1960s, the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, were important because they addressed very basic and fundamental problems, legal segregation, discrimination, voting rights discrimination. The problem with these laws is that for African Americans in the North and urban areas of the North and parts of urban areas of the Midwest and the West, they felt that they didn't go far enough because they didn't address something that we would call de facto discrimination. These civil rights laws addressed de jure discrimination, in other words, legal discrimination, but they didn't address de facto discrimination. De facto does means the way it is. And so you have many Northern African Americans and many Middle Western and Western African Americans who said, well, these are nice. You know, they're great for the South, for African Americans in the South, but they don't help any of us in the North. We were never discriminated against in terms of voting rights. We were never discriminated against in terms of Jim Crow institutions, but we are discriminated against because we can't get good jobs. We are living in economically and socially run down areas, the so-called ghettos. We are living in areas where we can't get jobs with our own community and stores that are owned by whites.  And so there's a growing frustration among African Americans, especially in the North and the Midwest, that they're not their problems are not being addressed by the broader civil rights cause or the broader civil rights movement. As I said, basic things, housing discrimination or poor quality housing, having to live in housing projects funded by the government that were that were really run down, that weren't being well maintained. Employment discrimination, lack of basic services in many communities, many of these cities, as we talked about in a previous lecture, a lot of the whites had left the city for the suburbs. And so the cities were running out of money and they couldn't afford to maintain good policing in the cities. They couldn't afford to maintain good fire services. And so as a result, cities are getting more dangerous. They're getting more run down.  And this is where the majority of African Americans in the North were living. We're in these areas like Harlem or in the Bronx or in the South side of Chicago, areas like Watson, Los Angeles that were essentially becoming these sort of urban ghettos. And African Americans were very upset and frustrated about this. They were also upset because educational systems were lacking for African American students living in these neighborhoods. The local public schools were no good. They were dangerous. They were they just didn't have good teachers. The educational curriculums were not very good. And while there was no official discrimination in these schools, there was a de facto sense of discrimination of less opportunity than higher quality white schools. And so this becomes a growing frustration within Northern and Midwestern and Western African American communities. And we begin to see the emergence of a more radical, separatist civil rights movement that embraces a notion that largely becomes defined as Black power. The idea that African Americans needed to empower themselves, needed to be proud of being Black, and needed to stop letting whites run the agenda. Letting whites kind of dominate what was going on. And instead, African Americans needed to be more assertive in what they wanted within American society. Well, we see this sense of Black power in a number of ways. And one of the first of these is the emergence in California of the Black Panther Party. The Black Panther Party is founded in Oakland, California in 1966. And it's founded to do a number of things. It's not just a protest organization. It was really an organization that was a community building organization or a community kind of sponsored organization to help run free clinics and free schools and other programs for inner city people, both children and adults. And the Black Panthers helped to run all these organizations because they felt that the white public wasn't doing their job. And so they said, you know, the white, you know, white people who run the government in Oakland aren't going to help us. We're going to have to do things ourselves. The other thing that this is what got them in a lot of trouble is they advocated for armed self-defense against people who would do them harm. And mainly the police in the region who were largely staffed by white officers. And there was a sense of discrimination between the white police force and the African American community. So the Black Panthers, well, one hand they argued for basic self-sufficiency that African Americans, you know, should be helping themselves within their own communities. Also argue for armed self-defense against outsiders, namely the white police. And this is a thing that causes a lot of tensions within the community, causes a lot of violence between the Black Panther organization and whites in the government. Black Panthers, of course, are also arguing, here's a poster that they wrote, arguing that drug use, for instance, was essentially letting the whites win if African Americans were using drugs and were basically killing themselves, that this benefited the white community. And therefore drug use shouldn't be condoned, should be condemned because it was essentially part of this sort of broader white agenda against African Americans. So, you know, you're arguing that in some respects, the Black Panther Party are doing a lot of good things. They're helping bring it educational and healthcare to local communities, helping fight against drugs. But at the same time, this platform of armed separation and armed self-defense gets them in a lot of trouble within the broader California, Northern California society. And another organization that was also sort of on the same track with this notion of separatism, of being separate from the broader society in the United States was the Nation of Islam. And the Nation of Islam is an organization that predates the 1960s and actually been founded far well before that. But in the late 50s, it becomes closely associated with Malcolm X, who becomes the leader of the organization in the late 50s. And Malcolm X is an extremely charismatic individual and he does a very effective job of publicizing the problems of the African American community and trying to bring attention to ways that African Americans could improve their lives. He vilifies it certainly in his early years, the white community. And he really argues that African Americans, in order to be productive, healthy, otherwise, need to enforce a sense of discipline on themselves and need to isolate themselves from the broader white community and create essentially a parallel society. And he argued that was the only way that the African Americans could get advance in white society was to create their own social and economic system. I argued also, and this is an argument that not only Malcolm X, but others make as well, that the African culture needed to be embraced. And African Americans had given up their cultural heritage and adopted white European ways and so had needed to go and accept African culture and embrace African culture and be proud of the fact that they were of African heritage. This is really the time period where this name African American comes from. Before that, often the term Negro was used by African Americans to describe themselves. And African Americans is a new way of phrasing an identity that plays off of African origins and shows a certain sense of pride in African origins. So Malcolm X and his supporters really argue that again, African Americans need to separate themselves. If they want to be free, they have to be willing to not be a part of dominant white European society. But again, like Black Panthers, argue that well, that blacks need to be willing to use force if necessary to defend themselves against whites who would discriminate against them.  And this is really a misunderstanding of Malcolm X's arguments. And his arguments is simply that African Americans deserve to be free, they deserve to be safe. And they, if necessarily, need to use force to protect themselves, not use force to attack whites, but use force to defend themselves against whites, white police, white government, et cetera, et cetera, that we're impressing them. So this idea of separatism, of separation from white society and of essentially defense against white society becomes part of the broader civil rights critique by the mid-1950s. And Malcolm X's case is certainly predated even in the mid-1960s. But it definitely becomes part of a broader agenda within the civil rights movement and also serves as a source of separation within the civil rights movement because those like people like Martin Luther King saw what Malcolm X was doing as dangerous, as dividing the civil rights movement as potentially offending or scaring whites who King felt should be encouraged to be part of the civil rights movement. So while King was embracing integration, encouraging whites and other minorities to join African-Americans fighting for civil rights, Malcolm X is arguing for the opposite, that blacks need to do it themselves, that whites are a problem and that whites cannot in any way contribute positively to the civil rights movement. So these are sort of the two strains of the movement that began to develop by the mid-1960s. Well, of course, there's other things going on in the mid-60s as well that reflect this growing sense of frustration, especially in the North and parts of even the West by African-Americans against this de facto discrimination. And beginning in 1964 and continuing until the late 1960s, the urban ghettos of the North erupt in violence during the summers. The first of these major riots is in Harlem in 1964. Here you see white police officers attempting to subdue perhaps an African-American who is involved in these riots or just maybe even just a passer by who happens to be witnessing these riots. Then following year in Watson in Los Angeles, another riot breaks out, then a riot breaks out in Detroit, eventually Newark, New Jersey and Washington, D.C. and National Guard troops are actually, Army troops and National Guard troops have to be called out to maintain law and order. And so there was this growing sense of, for whites, this great growing fear that African-Americans were causing lots of violence within the cities. But from African-American perspective, this was a reaction against these limited economic opportunities, sense of racial discrimination, violence perpetrated by white police officers against black urban residents. And much of this was borne out in the facts.  Blacks living in cities were far more likely to face death due to violence through crime or violence due to white police officers. And so there was certainly very legitimate reasons for African-Americans in this time period to be angry and upset. And of course rioting and destroying neighborhoods wasn't ultimately a productive solution to these sources of anger and tension, but they did serve as sort of a release valve for a lot of the anger and frustration that was felt within the urban African-American communities. And of course, for both African-Americans and whites, created this strong sense of crisis within the United States in the late 1960s. And this is a crisis that's not only to do with civil rights and race, has to do with war. The Vietnam War, as we'll talk about in the next lecture, creates a sense of crisis in the United States. So by the late 1960s, there was a strong sense of crisis in the US for all these reasons that we've talked about. Well, to get back a little bit, just briefly to Martin Luther King and his sort of position within this broader movement. As I told you, King initially takes a very strong integration to stand, doesn't want African-Americans to be separating themselves or offending the white majority in the United States. And in fact, argues that whites and blacks need to work together to solve the problems that were caused by a lack of civil rights. But by the last, by 1966, 1967, King is beginning to shift his position a little bit on civil rights and moving in some ways more towards the position held by Malcolm X and the Black Panthers, but by no means not as radical as these two organizations. All this violence in the North, all these riots that take place in Harlem and in Detroit and places like Watts, begin to sort of change King's perspective on the civil rights movement. And he begins to recognize that the civil rights movement is not just about voting rights. It's not just about the equal rights to go for public facilities like restrooms or libraries or things like that. But that civil rights is as much about economic rights as it is about anything else. And that poor whites and poor blacks have a lot in common. They're both economically disadvantaged. And King begins to shift his arguments less from voting rights, which had been basically secured by 1965 and discrimination and Jim Crow, which had largely been dealt with by 65 to economic disadvantage for African-Americans and for poor whites. And so in 1964, King launches the beginning of a movement to argue that the United States has to do more to equal the playing field for poor whites, poor blacks and those in the middle in the upper classes. Because if not, poverty is a self-reinforcing cycle. And I argued that those who were poor would stay poor and would be miserable and would be a source of great problems for the broader American society if something didn't happen about this. And so beginning in 64, and by certainly 1966, King launches a more radical movement to challenge poverty and to argue for employment opportunities for African-Americans as well as for whites. And faces a lot more objection. A lot of whites who liked King when he was talking about voting rights and giving his I Have a Dream speech became frustrated and concerned with him when he gets angry about the rights of the poor versus the rights of the middle class and the wealthy. And so King finds it much harder to make progress with this campaign against economic discrimination. King also begins to challenge the Vietnam War, which we're gonna talk about more in the next lecture and argues in fact that the Vietnam War is wrong. He argues that it's hurtful for America's image abroad. He argues that it hurt what black communities. In fact, the Vietnam War was doing as much as anything to destroy black communities, to impoverish blacks because many blacks were being drafted and going to serve and it was destroying families and it was making all sorts of other problems. And really he argues the war is serving as a distraction from the bigger problems with poverty in American society. And well, this just like his turn for economic equality really starts to make whites in the United States a little more skeptical of King. In 1968, King begins organizing the poor people's march. In other words, another march on Washington much like the 1963 march, but again highlighting the concerns of those who were poor in the United States. And unfortunately before he was able to bring about the campaign, King is assassinated in April of 1968 and well, of course his legacy continues to the present. He's no longer present in the late 60s as a unifying and as an organizing force behind this growing conception of the civil rights movement. And so King is dead by 1968, Malcolm X is assassinated before 1968 and the movement loses some of its sort of initial steam as it continued forward after that. By way of conclusion, I just want to offer just a few comments. Of course the civil rights movement does continue after the death of Martin Luther King. But after 1968, it begins to lose some of its kind of really strong national character. For one reason, many of the changes that have been advocated early in the movement have been made by 1965. And so these other changes, these things such as anti-poverty, these are much harder changes to implement by signing a piece of legislation or implement by basic changes in political systems. So there were much harder, more complicated issues to be dealt with. The movement also begins to splinter a little bit. Again, because some of the more radical members of the civil rights movement take very strong positions against the white community and want to be separate rather than integrated within that community. But at the same time, the movement is an inspiration for other rights movements in the United States. And we see the origins in the civil rights movement in the 1960s of Latino and Hispanic rights movements in the United States, Native American rights movements, rights movements for the gay and lesbian communities in the United States and other minority groups as well. So the civil rights movement in the 60s certainly helps bring about other rights movements in the 60s and beyond. It also helps bring about a renewal of the feminist movement. And women see inspiration within the civil rights movement especially African American women, and begin to do more to championing women's rights within American society. So gradually, of course, as time goes on, some of the de facto discrimination becomes less so in the North and things begin to improve. But of course, civil rights continue to be a major source of tension in the United States well into the present period. So while the civil rights movement does a lot to meet its goals in the 1960s and early 70s, the issues that become a source of tension within the United States, relating to civil rights, are still a source of tension and still continue to be matters that have to be hashed out by Americans of all nationalities and races.


I'm like no dude.  How's this looking? What is it? It's optimal Is your face hurt?  Yeah, especially like oh you Supinate and now all of a sudden it's more I've seen people say more medial or more lateral head Yeah, but I mean if you think about it like the triceps like they don't connect down here So it's not really doing anything. I would say if you're doing any tricep movement just do the cross cable pushdown I hate saying best but that's in my opinion one of the best covers a lot of bases it does and it hits all three heads of the tricep. It does it really really well Versus this I mean no you need to lean over more shove your titties in the cable more titties Yeah, oh, yeah, tongue more more trippy.   I've never suffer lever. Yeah, I haven't been I haven't been felt up this well in a while Hello, let's look back at it. That's like great When I'm doing any of my lat movements I really just like to think about driving that upper arm like down and back as I'm pulling through I'm thinking about the one for the face. They try to keep the elbows as low as possible I think if you think about elbowing more in the face probably a little bit more up the back out of the elbow I'm going for the groin.  Like our IR bogus and That's our training if you've never pushed yourself I know where they are be our P doesn't work. It's hard to learn RPE on a squat. It is exactly It's not you can't really take it. That's how you take talkers It's not hard to take squat to failure, but it is hard to learn RPE on there with good Even for me man Getting under 315 some days feels like some days. I'm like We're getting those like high threshold loaders like taking it in right? Yeah, you're three 15 sometimes will feel heavier I'm like more about me for sure. Yeah, that's the beauty of bodybuilding really is it's it's very Unlikely to have a bad day. Yeah, because it doesn't matter Like you want to add weight yeah, but you can also just go post a failure be fine Powerlifting if I don't hit 495 today, my PR might be down the drain next week Yeah, no, you will be sad the whole week. Yeah, yeah, yeah because because my progress is now stalled because it's one But I mean even with like good bodybuilders like they want to sure But like if something's free you can work around it's so easy if you're me I'm so bare I'm so numbers focused. I write it all down.  Yeah, there's so much less like Your whole prep could it how about Bart and I show you our lap hold-downs and then you show is yours Yeah, you gotta take the limit of your mobility, bro