Good afternoon. And I trust everyone enjoyed their lunch. I'm going to get going because we haven't got too much time, and I assume that other people will join us in due course. But I want to introduce and welcome to the conference Jeanette Manfra. Those people who are inside the sort of small DC cyber policy bubble will know Jeanette, but others may not know her so well. She is a career civil servant, but for the time being, at least, is the acting deputy undersecretary for cybersecurity communications in the National Protection and Programs Directorate, which is a very long-winded way of saying she is the most senior person in DHS solely doing cybersecurity. So for those people who this means something for, she is covering the slot that Phyllis Schneck most recently took. And, as I say, as the administration begins to sort of find its feet, what we're increasingly seeing, I think, if we're reading with tea leaves correctly, that DHS is going to have a pretty prominent role in some of the initiatives that Tom Bossard hinted at when he spoke at CSIS last week, which was the first beginning indications we have of the agenda of the new administration on cybersecurity. So I want to cover a number of topics, not the least of which what this administration is going to be looking at to the extent that Jeanette can talk about it to this point, but also cover some of the areas of continuity, things which the last administration has started, which will continue, but maybe didn't necessarily get the coverage they deserved as we moved across into a new administration. First of all, Jeanette, I'd just like you to tell everybody a little bit more about your career. One of the things that we've been doing in New America is trying to provide role models for people who want to get into this space. What does your career look like? What have you done in your last couple of jobs that has taken you to where you are now? Sure. So I think I was probably always destined to have a career in technology, despite as much as I tried to avoid it in my youth. I grew up, my father was a programmer. We always had computers around the house. At Commodore 64, plugged into our TV. And I always thought, no, I'm going to do the arts and the hard science route. And so I continued to, while I had a love for computers, growing up around them. And with my father, I decided that I didn't want to follow in my father's footsteps, which is probably ironic for a lot of people. Usually it's kind of the opposite. And in college, I decided to join the Army. And they did a great recruiting video about how fun it was to be in the signal corps. And you got to run with radios on your back through the forest and all sorts of other kind of really cool things. And I was really motivated to do that. And then I turned out that it's really I'm just a land administrator, which is fine. But I learned really there both the tactical deployment of communications and information technology and how value that is to support the mission. And so I kind of went from there and then merged into more the intelligence side of things. And once I got out of the Army, I was looking what I wanted to do. So I decided I'm going to take all this, apply it to international relations, and understand how this all sort of fits in understanding the sort of the emerging way that countries have to negotiate the internet and all of this technology. And as I was graduating, a company came to me and said, hey, we're starting this new Office of Cybersecurity and Communications at DHS. Do you want to join? And that was in 2007. And so I said yes. And I've been with that office in various forms. I was able to serve at the National Security Council for a year as the director of critical infrastructure cybersecurity and served as the last secretary, senior counselor for cybersecurity. Worked closely with, at the time, under Secretary Suzanne Spalding to really build the capabilities for the National Protection and Programs Director, which is the larger director that our cybersecurity mission fits in. So and then I was asked to take this position. So here I am. So let's cut to the chase. You find yourself as the acting deputy under secretary. We have essentially two data points in terms of what this administration is going to look like. As I mentioned, we don't have the EO, but we have had Tom Bossett talking last week about some of his priorities. We also have a budget proposal, which suggests, if successful, that more money will be coming to DHS, which is consistent with some of the other things Tom said. What's that money going to be used for and how do you see work of DHS, both protecting government systems and critical infrastructure evolving over the next few years? That's a lot. I think, you know, not to get too specifics about how the money would be used for the President's budget request, but very pleased the recognition that DHS has this capability and recognizing that the need for more resources to fully realize our authorities and capabilities, focusing on protecting the dot gov. That is a core capability and core competency that we need to continue to improve upon in DHS. We have learned a lot over the past 10 years, and as we've learned, our environment has evolved as well. In some ways, the way government does IT is exactly the same now as it was 10 years ago, unfortunately, and we're working to try to change some of that, but you see a lot of innovation that both in sort of pockets of procurement and leveraging commercial technologies to meet the user requirements. So we want to look broadly at how do we get ourselves out of defending the indefensible, I think is what Tom Bossert said previously. And it can't be, the cybersecurity solutions will always be somewhat, we'll say, kind of jammed into an imperfect architecture because we need to be able to modernize our systems. We need to rethink the way we procure and operate IT and to the extent that we have operational technology within the federal government. So really looking at the two together, IT modernization and then everything we've learned and on how DHS deploys systems and tools and capabilities to other agencies. I think we've done a couple of different models and I think we're seeing a lot of success in our continuous diagnostics and mitigation program where we are working with the agencies, understand their environment, understand their requirements, but we have a large contract through GSA and that leverages the purchasing power of the entire government where each agency sort of isn't off doing their own thing. We are able to deploy these tools working with the vendors and with the agencies and then ultimately we will both have agency-specific dashboards but also a DHS dashboard where we can start to see what does the risk profile of our IT across the government really look like and doing such in a continuous monitoring way where we're constantly seeing and checking devices and I think that will be the first time that we'll have a truly data-driven approach to understanding what's on our networks, how are they operating and then of course the next step will be kind of enforcing the security rules that we need but we wanna do that in a way that doesn't sort of push us back into the kind of the traditional way of the government doing IT. We wanna do it in a way that capitalizes on all the news or the cloud, mobile, everything else that we want to modernize government, we wanna make sure that our security accounts for that and we think that we can do that, it's a big ask but that's a lot of what we'll be looking at is what have we learned, what's the right strategy to achieve that and how can we deploy that quickly and are there governance changes within the federal government that we should be looking at what's the role of DHS, et cetera. So I should have mentioned Tom Bossard is of course the assistant to the president for Homeland Security but he has a cybersecurity background which I think is kind of relatively rare and but in talking about this, one of the two of the things that he mentioned is one, proposing greater accountability for leaders in government but also suggesting there are times when it's not within the control of an agency themselves to deal with some of the bigger threats and suggesting a sort of a further move to a managed services model with DHS being key to that. What sort of timeframe do you think we're looking at to get the federal government to the point where the dot gov is protected in the way that you think it should be protected? I think, I mean, I would like to have a strategy done in the next couple months and a plan to implement it in the next two years. I think we can do it and I think we have a lot of support from the administration leadership and between us and the private sector, we have the tools. The complication is in the federal government. You have to be able to scale pretty massively and we have a lot of decentralized networks and so that is always sort of the challenge in implementing these sort of cross domain solutions. But I think we can do it. I think we have cabinet heads similar to the private sector where they understand that this is their risk to manage but there is also, there's a broader enterprise risk and being able to understand both individual entity risk as well as the enterprise risk is I think something that DHS is capable of doing and then being able to work with the agency to deploy those tools to protect against those highest value assets. I think that was also an important lesson that we learned is and again similar to what we asked the private sector to do with the cybersecurity framework. It's about identify where your highest priorities are and mass your resources to be able to both protect those but also make them more resilient so that you can get them back up and running quickly and understand what your contingency plans are for. So it has to kind of all come back to let's get a little off track of your question but it all has to come back to what are your essential services and functions that you have to perform whether your government agency or private sector in order for you to do your business or your mission. What systems and data are you dependent on in order to do that and then how do you best protect and make those more resilient. And I think that's where we're going to continue to focus on. It's, there's a lot of critical systems in the government and we need to focus our resources and that's how I think that by having that prioritization conversation both within the government and with critical infrastructure that's how I think we can move faster. So you mentioned that critical infrastructure and of course DHS has essentially two sort of side missions, the dog guard there's also this big role in supporting the protection of critical infrastructure much of which is in the private sector and the administration has spoken a lot about sort of working in sort of new ways with the private sector. But actually quite a lot of the sort of thinking behind this relationship has been done over the last few years. For the benefit of people here can you just give us a sense of what DHS's role sort of now is presidential policy director 41 and the national cyber incident response plan and how that is going to frame the way that you're engaging on protecting critical infrastructure. Sure, so I think there's for critical infrastructure there's two main areas. One is the protection and the preparedness role and one is the response and the recovery. I think the PPD 41 which was published at the end of the last administration outlines mechanisms by which law enforcement intelligence community and Homeland Security work together to address a response for a significant cyber incident and we're putting that into practice developing all the plans and executing that through exercises and having had a chance to do it in real world so hopefully we'll wait for a little bit for that one but making sure that we all have mechanisms to ensure that we have the appropriate conversations. We have a significant incident. How do we need to pursue any investigative angle? What's the intelligence community assessment and what are their equities in this and from a DHS perspective, we're looking at systemic risk and how we can sort of stave off any potential from this becoming larger than one entity if it hasn't already done that and also ensuring that we're getting those systems back up and running and every cyber incident has to manage all of those equities whether they're in government or without and this is sort of the structure to do that and the National Cyber Incident Response Plan which we issued just a couple of months ago was worked with the private sector and state and locals to further define rules and responsibilities among those communities for cyber incidents. So that's the cyber incident response side and the protection and the preparedness I think there's kind of underneath that two areas that we started focusing on and want to continue to do that. One is sort of a large protection of everybody and which also I think has a deterrent effect and that is largely in our automated indicator sharing program. So building a neighborhood watch if you will where everybody is sharing indicators we have the liability protection now for industry and we have the policies worked out within government to ensure the appropriate protection of privacy, et cetera where we are just getting as many indicators as possible shared amongst as wide a group as possible. We're near about a hundred entities that are signed up for that and that doesn't mean just a specific entity it could be information sharing analysis organization that represents a broader community and so I think that's very important and I think the more people that are sharing and the more people that are ingesting that and protecting themselves one we're not only all improving our protection but we're also having a deterrent effect by making it harder for the bad guys to use the same techniques over and over again. So that's sort of one area and that's not the only program but that's sort of our main one. The other one is really trying to understand the systemic risk within critical infrastructure and understanding what you could call high value targets and where is the potential for the greatest consequence from a cyber incident and we took some initial steps in executive order 13636 which asked us to identify that exactly that set of entities and so now that we have that begun what is the, we need to have a conversation with both those entities but also other parts of the internet and communications technology community about what do we do? Are we providing additional services and products for those entities? We should be developing contingency plans with our government partners with those entities with other elements of the community and that's where we wanna go forward is now that we have this joint understanding of where that potential for consequences how are we working to mitigate those consequences and they may not be a cyber response. There's a lot of things that you can do to mitigate consequences that don't necessarily involve a computer so we wanna ensure that we're talking with emergency management professionals and others and so that's where we'd really like to prioritize our efforts and that's where we intend to prioritize our efforts over the next few months. That's an enormous agenda and in order to achieve that's particularly against the sort of problem set that you're up against. You need to be, DHS particularly, the government would generally needs to be as effective as you can. Suzanne Spaulding talking earlier said that one of her regrets of her time in government was not being able to take forward the reorganization of the DHS's sort of cyber responsibilities. We're now in a sort of slightly different congressional place. What's the hope for in terms of how you would be organized in order to take this forward in due course? Well, I think we made a lot of progress even if we didn't get the name changed which we very much wanted and I look forward to working with Congress to get that name changed. I think we can get that done. I also think the work that was done identified a lot of what I was talking about initially. What are our core capabilities that we need to develop and where do we need to be allocating resources and how have the sort of strategic, the broad strategic shifts in the cybersecurity environment? What does that mean for us at DHS? So I think we really laid a lot of groundwork and there are some organizational changes that we would like to make but I think that we can get that done. The other part of the component of course is once you have the structure is the people. Workforce is something we're gonna talk about later today but just in terms of how you see the workforce in government, what are the things that you're most focused on in your current role to ensure that the people who you have working this issue are the people that you want to be have working this issue and that there are other people coming in behind them. So I think workforce is a huge challenge for us as it is for a lot of people I think. I think we have, well first we've been given some really great authorities by Congress both in terms of our mission but also in terms of our workforce where we were allowed to develop an accepted service for cybersecurity professionals and so we're working to implement that and that allows you to do things, recruitment and other sorts of incentives. But we also, last year maybe the year before just using existing authorities, we actually have quite a bit and we wanted to push the envelope, are we using all these authorities, retention incentives and things that we could put in place right now and so we did a lot of that which is actually having quite a bit of an impact. It's reducing our attrition rate significantly and so I think most people come to DHS and they stay at DHS because they just really love that unique mission but when we spend a couple years training forensic analysts, they're very qualified and they're often spirited away by the private sector and I think a lot of what we did over the past couple years and Under Secretary Spalding was a big lead for this was we shouldn't resist that as much. There's a benefit to everybody if for people to have a career in both government and industry and so thinking about workforce a little bit differently and so we have our cyber core scholarship for service which has been a great feeding mechanism for us and where the government is paying for school and they owe whether it's DHS or any element of federal, state and local government some period of time for a couple of years depending on how much we paid them for and then they can go out in industry and we want to continue to push looking at other partnerships that we can have with industry. We see other countries doing a lot of this and so I think that's sort of generally, are we keeping up with the market? What can we do more to keep up with the market in terms of recruitment and retention and then what are those sort of unique partnerships with industry and others but also just generally a cultural recognition that it's okay to spend a few years with us, go to industry and when your kids have gone to college maybe you come back to us and so that's kind of a big cultural shift but I think that's where we need to go and because people do love the mission and then we want to make sure aside from all those other things, are we providing them the same sort of tools that they could get in industry? Are we removing the bureaucratic hurdles that are keeping them from being able to be as agile and nimble as they would like as a cyber security professional? So that's one of the other sorts of things that we know we can do better on and we have a lot of good partners on the management support side of things to look at how can we, we don't want an analyst having to spend months fighting over a contract. We need to be able to do better on that stuff. I have a lot more questions but I know that other people will want questions so we have about five minutes time for your questions so at the back in the corridor, yeah, middle, sorry. Yes, and if you could say who you are and where you're from. Thank you, I'm Tom Ryzen, I'm freelancing with Aerospace America. A quick follow up on the workforce culture, obviously any more cyber security professionals but President Trump has kind of a frayed relationship with Silicon Valley, how has that affected your ability to recruit people as opposed to might be more interested in going to the private sector? Is it too early to tell if that's had any impact on recruitment? I haven't seen any impact, no. Rick. Hi, Rick Weber at Insights Cyber Security. Jeanette, can you talk a little bit about the much anticipated executive order it does the earlier drafts talk about section nine which are the most affected or the most catastrophic sectors that you're talking about in terms of working with them. So how do you see the executive order fitting into what you want to be doing and prioritizing your efforts? Well, I'm not gonna talk about specifics of the executive order. I would just say that in our conversations with the White House and the policy development process we're sort of very much aligned in terms of what our priorities are and what theirs are. I'm just looking for kinds of nest cyber there's a hand just down here. Hello, Parni and Najafi from FireEye. So you said that the response to cyber attacks are not necessarily cyber responses. So what kind of response you've seen that are more effective than cyber responses necessarily or if you can explain a little bit about that. Sure, I think what I was referring to was you may not for contingency planning. So if you are only, this could be broadened to any sort of response. If you're only thinking about the tools that you have with your network and your computer you're missing out on a lot of other tools. So if our solution to having a backup capability having a backup capability for a water system that's dependent on their IT system is to just have a backup IT system maybe we should also be considering having personnel trained to manually flip dials or operate the system. And that's more what I meant is don't sort of restrict yourself that it's a cyber problem therefore it has to have a cyber solution. We should be thinking about the entire range of tools that are available to industry and government. And do you think that that kind of mindset is beginning to become accepted across government? I think so. I think one of the benefits of recognizing cybersecurity is kind of its own discipline and mission area if you will is that you kind of brought it out from the secret corridors of just smart tech people. And so I think that was a benefit to recognizing it as a unique mission space but we also have to be careful that it doesn't get siloed off on its own and it's not recognizing the interconnections with say emergency management or other mission areas because a lot of what we're dealing with whether it's people call it a cyber attack but it might be espionage, it might be sabotage, it might be somebody misconfigured something. There's so many things that a quote cyber incident could be that to have it siloed off in its own discipline without any connection to other risk management processes in the organization is dangerous I think. So one of the things that we've heard a lot about and we haven't spoken about to date is the relationship or the potential to change the relationship with the private sector. The, it remains to be seen sort of exactly what the EO has in one thing and another but one of the areas that you kind of briefly spoke about was sort of information exchange and I think one of the areas that we see is sort of ripe for the work to be done is how that building on the legislation that was passed in the last Congress. How do you see sort of capitalizing on that to improve the flow of information? Cause I think people have almost mentally moved on from information sharing but there's actually still quite a lot to be done. What's on your agenda as far as that's concerned? So I think we have made a lot of progress with information sharing, that's true. And I think one of the things that we talk a lot about is the notion of comparative advantage, just an international economics term where countries eventually specialize in what makes the most sense for them from a trade perspective. And I think we have a similar in cyber security and industry doesn't have all the information and everything that they need to defend themselves but neither does government. And so how are we each specializing based off of our authorities, our capabilities in what makes sense for each of us? And I believe it's very complimentary. I think the US government can go place and do things that industry can't and probably doesn't. And I think the same is true on the industry side. So how are we understanding what that quote comparative advantage is and how are we institutionalizing that in our intelligence production cycles and our information sharing processes within the government? We've learned a lot in terms of information sharing on the counter-terrorism side and I think we've learned a decent amount on the cyber security side but we need to continue to recognize that critical infrastructure is a very unique partner and the measure of our success isn't how many more declassified products I can get out to the private sector that we should continue to push on that. It's about do I understand what this is going back to the highest consequence? Do I understand where the potential for highest consequence and are we both allocating our resources to best protect and recover should anything happen to those? And that's how I think we need to be thinking in terms of refining our information sharing is understanding that risk, looking inside the government about how we best organize ourselves to provide that information that the private sector needs in order to best protect against that. So that's kind of our big challenge. I think we've made some progress with a couple of sectors and I wanna continue to capitalize on that. And we look forward here at New America in helping you in that process. Thank you very much. It is a challenging time to be sitting here as a government person while the government finds its feet but I think that has been extremely helpful. So thank you very much and we join me in thanking Jeanette Manfred.


Hey, good afternoon everybody time Stuart here. I'm with Liz Trotter.  So What is it? I'm guessing it's around 11 o'clock your time. It's just on 10 p.m. 10 10 p.m. Yeah, so it's quite dark in here. You can see the shadow behind me Using the light above my monitor and some nice LED strip lights down here, but it's about 10 p.m Usually getting ready for bed right now. I'm not gearing up for a podcast, but I'm excited You guys don't do the daylight savings time where you change the clocks back and forth. Yeah, we do I'm not keen on it. I'm not keen on it I mean it depends when you lose the hour. It doesn't feel great when you gain the hour I'm very much in favor of that That is so me But losing that first hour it doesn't feel great I don't know which came first So I don't know if we lost it and then we regained it or we gained it and then we lost it But I'm not a huge fan of it, but we do daylight savings We're about a month away from it being a little bit lighter in the evenings But a long time way from being light at 10 p.m. That's for sure, but it will get here eventually even if it's for a couple of weeks So it sounds the same as us actually Yeah, I think probably very similar. Yeah, but I see right either the US is thinking about getting rid of daylight savings time Is that I hear that? Yeah, I think it's a great idea. I mean, I have I mean I don't really know why it happens something to do with farming. Is that is that correct? I think that's what I heard. I'm not farmer. So I'm probably not feeling The impact of it too much, but I think I would like it to go I've also heard the argument about kids like catching the school bus Absolutely Assuming we're not here to talk about daylight savings for an hour. No, we can do that. I mean, we've we've done silly or a thing I was gonna say we I think we've done worse. Yeah We do talk about some crazy stuff So so Jamie entered just take a few minutes and introduce yourself Tell us a little bit about what you do where you are and anything else is going on in your world No, I appreciate that but first of all, thank you for having me. It's great to be here. I'm very excited My name as you can see on the screen is Jamie Wilcox. I run the cleanup Academy along with my business partner Joe We're based in the UK, which you can probably hear from my accent as much as I try not to sound like a farmer I'm told I do slightly every now and again I live in the Southwest of the UK So just outside Bristol, which is the biggest city that I live very close to if you're not familiar with UK geography Think London and then just go west in a line until you basically hit the sea and that's where I live So we look out over Cardiff, Wales. We can see Cardiff from across the sea Very close to a town called Western Supermere But we work with cleaning company owners all over the UK something the US now as well in Australia and Europe and Our focus really is about helping cleaning company owners to get out of the day-to-day of their business Most people start their cleaning company for a selfish reason and you say the word selfish and it sounds so negative but most people start it for probably spend more time with their kids or to have more free time or to have that financial security and We all know what this is like you start that business and before you know it You're just stuck in the day today and you feel directionless and you feel lost and you think this isn't why I started it I didn't this wasn't the dream I have when I started it But it becomes so difficult to see the woods for the trees I like to think of it as people just swimming along in a swimming pool head down just swimming and sometimes you've got to say Hey, you've got to breathe and sometimes you've got to jump in and save them from drowning So we do that a lot trying to get people to focus on the big So you're like cleaning business lifeguards Exactly. Yeah, that's how we're going to market ourselves from now on But yeah, it's very much focused around lifestyle There's there's a lot of Lot of coaches out there the position is hey, let's get to seven figures Let's get said multiple seven figures and we do work with clients. They're turning over anywhere up to five million pounds. However For me not everybody wants to be seven figures Some people just want 250,000 a year enough to support them in their family. They want a few staff I think regardless of the type of cleaning company you operate whether it's commercial residential is something more specialist Regardless of the size that you want to grow it to there's room for every cleaning company in the industry There's room for you to grow it to the size that you want not the size that I think you should be or the size That somebody else thinks you should be so we won't provide cleaning company owners with the tools to make that a reality So that they can I mean the easiest way of putting is they can work as little as they want Whilst earning more than they need that really is that's the way that we put it So so Jamie give us the backstory. How did you get started and clean up academy and what you know What what path did you take to get to that point? I've had a very interesting journey in the cleaning industry Um, I think most people probably look at their lives at some point in the kind of thing How did they get here and not necessarily in a negative way? But my first experience with cleaning I used to play a lot of tennis when I was a teenager. So I used to play tennis to A fairly high standard in the uk. We've got um districts then county and then we've got national level So I was county level kind of approaching national When I was a teenager and I would spend all of my time at the local tennis club I was really fortunate we moved to the countryside when I was about six years old and there was a tennis club in our village So we were very lucky. I was there all the time and they needed some cleaners at the tennis club So my mum was like, yeah, I'll go and clean. She was on the committee and I started going to help her It was really just pocket money. So that was my first real experience in cleaning Um, I'm gonna clean the tennis club once a week and there was you know Kitchen area and toilets and floors and all that sort of stuff. But that was my first experience and I then when I was In my early teens into my later teens I went into music my my dad used to tour in a band He's an amazing singer and he also was a guitarist and I saw my dad's kind of just playing at home I was like, I kind of want to do this. So started, you know picking up his guitar making horrible noises and eventually kind of You know, it's like, let's have some lessons, you know, let's not make those horrible sounds in the house people would teach you how to play so um I don't know if you know much about music unless you're really up there. You don't make a whole lot of money Not particularly glamorous. We were playing some fast angry type of music and there's not a lot of money in that so We were going away and we were doing a lot of tours in in the uk um In europe as well. We were actually uh, we did come to the us once to do a tour, but it didn't end up too well That's a story for another time. But um, we don't That was a pretty good hook right there. Jamie. I'm like Money so I needed I needed a job. My sister was working at a nursing home Which was kind of caring for the elderly people with dementia that sort of thing. Um um, so care home and they needed cleaning staff My sister was like, why don't you just come and do some cleaning? I thought yeah, I mean Why not? I need the money to get plane tickets and to pay for you know, we were sleeping on a lot of floors and things So anything's better than sleeping on a floor. Um, and then that really turned into A career accidentally when I got to the to the care home. Um Absolutely disgusting to think about now But they were using the same red cloth For every toilet and commode in the nursing home So you can imagine the first toilet absolutely fine But when you get to room 30 and there was 32 residents in the home multiple toilets That's like, I don't know anything about cleaning really, but this cannot be right This can't be the way that you do it So and were they also using that red cloth to clean light switches and kitchen counters? Well blue cloths for the for the light switches and things and That's good. That's a little better But it wasn't good. It wasn't good. So I went to the the matron at the home and I said to her This doesn't sound right to me. I'm gonna do a little bit of research and I come back to you So we found the guidelines for um, so we've got the cqc in the uk is the care quality commission And they're the governing body that's responsible for coming into care homes and hospitals And making sure that things are done to a certain standards They monitor the cleaning the the care environment and all sorts of things Um, but they have guidelines on the website and they adhere to our nhs guidelines So our national health service they adhere to those guidelines Um, so I went to the matron. I was like, I found this this doesn't look right so Anyway, long story short. There was a lot of change. Um, it was A country a big old country house with people that have worked there for 20 25 years And they definitely looked at me thinking who's this Younger guy that's come in here out of nowhere telling me how to clean how dare he tell me not to use the wet cloth You know, it's um, and there was a lot of friction. There was a lot of friction So I ended up leaving the nursing home I was there about five years and I got into doing some care as well and that was incredibly rewarding Being able to support people that really struggled to support themselves. It was it was amazing It was emotional when when you know people passed away and that sort of thing But it was it was something that I really think shaped me and really made me feel compassionate about About coaching and another thing that was happening at the same time. I was guitar tutoring on the side So I got into coaching a little bit as a guitar tutor and I've been helping my sister with a bit of tennis coaching So I was already getting that coaching bug because you know, I was thinking I'm in a band Do some guitar teaching my dad started teaching me and then my friends and then other people heard about it And word of mouth happens to grow businesses. I'm sure we'll talk about that too Um, so I'd had this kind of this combination of cleaning and coaching Um, and then I needed a job I left the nursing home and I needed to find something and I stole an advert for an ambitious cleaning supervisor Um, I thought yeah, that's me. I'm an ambitious cleaning supervisor. I could do this Absolutely So I went for the job interview and I joined the business and the business was called gleam. So gl double e m I think in america you had toothpaste called gleam at some point. I think I was good yet So basically that's actually the same thing. Um And I met who is now my business partner in the cleanup academy my friend called joe Didn't know joe at the time, but I joined as a supervisor um within Two months of joining the business um it was very apparent that the business wasn't going as well as I thought it was and joe had to let go of a lot of the staff that he had at the time He'd been attempting to to scale the business and grow was doing some commercial mostly residential and had um Pushed to have more of an office team to give the capacity and to scale the business But that didn't really pan out. So there was a lot of redundancies, unfortunately And I was terrified for my job. I just joined this company as a supervisor. I was thinking, what do I do? Like I'm gonna be made redundant um So I wrote a business plan and I had no idea how to do that But I wrote a business plan. I took it to joe and I said this is what I think we should do and I thought I don't know what I think we should do but this sounds good. So I gave to joe and he read it and he thought Wait, wait, I gotta I gotta interrupt again How long had you been there at that time? Uh, probably two and a half months All right, go ahead Yeah, so um, it was a bold move. It was a bold move. But in my mind, I was thinking I've got to save my job I've got to do something to show that I'm interested in this that you know that I can help So I took this plan. I I wish I still had it. I'd love to read it But I don't have it unfortunately. Maybe it's on an old hard drive somewhere I have to have a look but I took him this plan and it was probably terrible But I took him the plan and he looked at it and says Okay, let's let's do this.  So Probably wasn't just my charm or my wit but um So so um sat down and joe looked to me and he was like, right So how did we grow a cleaning business? I looked at him and I said I thought you knew how to do this and he went Evidently not Okay And that was the start of a fascinating journey for probably the next three or four years. Um, That's super awesome. That's a great story. I love that story. How old were you at the time jamie? I joined gleam when I was 26. I'm 33 now So it was a little time ago now But that was also the start of my friendship with joe and as time went on joe is uh self He will admit this himself. So I don't feel like I'm I'm cutting the legs out from under him. He's a magpie He sees something shiny and he's like, what's that? That over there. He's he just gets distracted. Oh, yeah So and he's also he's an entrepreneur at heart. He just wants to start and grow businesses. So He started co-working space And it was taking up a lot of his time and I noticed that so every time there was something I could do I was like joe, let me do that for you. Oh, let me go to that quote No, I'll speak to that cleaner. Ah, let me speak to that client I'll handle that for you and I just kept taking more and more responsibility So within six months. I was the the commercial manager Then I was the development lead doing all the sales and then I was the general manager We got to the point where I was running the business day today And we'd grown the team. We picked up a bunch of contracts We'd seen a tremendous amount of growth within a fairly short period of time which I would attribute almost entirely to system software and automation which we're going to talk about I'm sure Because I mean, I want to talk about investing in yourself But part of that is learning all of those things and how integral they are to the operations But I kept taking responsibility and I sat down with joe one day and I said joe I've been thinking I'd really like to be the managing director of glee He's like, right Okay, aren't you already doing that? What my job? And I was like I actually I do want your job. Yeah And he thought right and I said just out of interest Had you thought about this and he said well, I did think that he was going to go that way eventually Time frame joe, what were you thinking? He's like, well, I was thinking maybe within the next six months We could do something, you know, or maybe just like a like a test trial basis to see how it would run What were you thinking and I was thinking That's not why I was thinking so I said to him, I was thinking the next six weeks actually He was like Right And he came back the next day and he said to me, you know what you're already running it. Let's just do it Um, I'm maybe the managing director. I've never run a business before I Was figuring out as I went along just the same as joe was and I think That's why to kind of pivot towards the topic for today That's why I believe that investing in yourself is so integral I spend so much of my time growing up believing that I was stupid believing that I was incapable of learning new things believing that I wasn't business oriented that I would be Doing nothing with my life that I'd be getting by and I really believe that I didn't excel at school I wasn't particularly academic. I just couldn't I couldn't I didn't find a reason to care about it I was learning things that had no application and I struggled to To resonate with why I should learn it and why I should care about it The university I didn't and I'm not saying that that's a good thing I think that getting an education is one of the absolute best things you can do I squandered mine in a lot of ways But I also without joining gleam and pushing myself and seeking out mentors and reading books And really focus on learning and and learning that I could look I never would have been able to rise to that challenge and grow that business And I wouldn't be sat here speaking with you today And it was such an incredible education simply because I did things and I learned things that I never thought I could So that's a long story Not cut short. That's a very long story But I think it gives a good kind of background in good context to Why I believe so much that the best investment we can make it than ourselves So I hope that answers the question Yeah So when you were managing the business Just some perspective on the scale. How many people were were employed? I mean Yeah, when I first started we had a couple of staff two or three Um when I left we were looking about a hundred staff. Okay, so sizable operation Joe actually sold gleam in in 2022 gleam was doing well over seven figures at that point And that was just the commercial side of the business. I actually I left I've been doing this for four years now. I've been coaching for four years Um, and I think I mentioned that I've been a tennis coach and I was a guitar tutor for nine years as well I Still find it absolutely incredible that just through the things that you can say You can have a really meaningful impact not only on the trajectory of somebody's business, but therefore their life I find coaching almost magical the fact that you can Reflect with people to ask people questions and check blind spots I think it's so powerful and it still amazes me today that simply by communicating. We can have that profound of an impact Um when we're working with somebody and that was really what attracted me to coaching So I knew I wanted to get back into coaching. I didn't really know what to do I thought well, I seem to know a lot about cleaning because I've been doing it for this time um, and I had I had seen um Mike campion from where my cleaning company I'd come across Mike and I'd seen a lot of stuff He was doing and honestly in the uk. There were very very few people speaking about the cleaning industry um It's been very guarded And I don't know quite what it's like in the us. I'd be interested to hear your perspective But in the uk, especially, um, we can go back five years ago There's there's a trade organization in the uk called the dcbn And I'm going to give them a plug because they're fantastic They're the domestic cleaning business network and they've also done a fantastic job of creating and fostering collaboration Um, and that's something that I've really tried to do through the cleanup academy as well Um, for me, we are so much better off Collaborating with each other than viewing each other as competitors all the time If we can share information with one another or we can go in on joint bids together Or we can support each other and give each other indications about pricing and all sorts of things There's so much to learn from working with each other And for a long time in the uk people just didn't want to share information People didn't want to share that knowledge with each other. So everybody is a competitor And I think something that has been really prominent Especially over the past four or five years in my opinion has been people coming together and supporting each other more Now we had, you know, Facebook groups and all sorts of stuff You see all of this stuff online and I saw so many people struggling with many of the same things that we'd struggled with for a long time That we had spent hours trying to figure out and probably wasted thousands of pounds Um And when you start to see patterns like that's like, okay, I think I can help a couple of people So Started helping a couple of people didn't we know what I was doing But it was like well, I kind of know some coaching I can ask some questions see what they're at give my advice and That's kind of snowballed In the past three years we work with literally hundreds of cleaning companies from predominantly in the uk For the us as well australia europe we're currently working with 40 plus cleaning companies in the cleanup academy That's growing every single month. We're really pushing that growth hard at the moment. Um an incredible journey. It's um Yeah, it's a lesson every single day and coaching It's fascinating because when you're in your own business, you know what you do And you know What you do well, I mean what you don't do so well, but you don't always get a feel for the broader industry I'm working with that many different cleaning companies of various sizes in different locations It gives you such an insight into the industry as a whole I think that's been the most fascinating part of working with so many cleaning companies Is I can see loads of stuff now that if I could turn back the clock and do it differently when I was at gleam I absolutely would Because there are things that I've learned even since being a coach. It's been yeah, it's it's an amazing journey. So I don't know Completely different perspective outside looking in as being inside looking in right So I know tom you you've run into that with the software too that your perspective is just like wow shifted Like you still know all the same stuff But how you look at things and how you how you think about things has just shifted you think about them differently than you did before Yeah, you broaden your perspective for sure. Oh, yeah, you Thought you understood everything there was to understand only to be humbled by Finding out that you know Yeah, I think I think that's a really interesting point as well actually tom because When you learn about a new subject and you're scratching the surface and you start to get an understanding of you think Ah, I've got it. I've got it And then you go deeper into it and you realize I know nothing And the depth of going into a subject I mean marketing is a great example I think how many different ways there are to market your cleaning business Um and the more you go into it the more you realize I don't know as much as I thought I did and you you do it's not that you don't know anything Yeah, but it's just the depth of the of the topics and the subjects There's so much depth to them that people are still figuring stuff out as they go I have no idea that there's even that much depth there So I just got off an interview with somebody from the reader's digest And we were talking for about 85 minutes. I jumped off that to get on here And all we were talking about was floors But what cleaning cleaning floors right for for an hour and a half Yeah, wow, I didn't even realize there was that much stuff to know about floors and she was like I don't know what to do with all this information I thought you were just going to tell me the best product To buy and then I was just going to find out what kind of mop And then we'd be done. Yeah, and I was like, yeah Sorry, I think that's kind of what it's like, right? Everything is like that so much bigger And obviously coaching same thing. So I'm curious with your coaching Do you have a size company that you prefer to work with Jamie? It's a really good question I would say the sweet spot for the cleanup academy is anything up to A million pounds turnover is probably what I would say just as a rough benchmark We do have one-to-one clients that I work with because I kind of act as head coach Joe is incredibly good Systems and processes and marketing and that sort of thing. He loves to be stuck into those He gives fantastic advice to but I think coaching is is definitely my passion So we do work with cleaning businesses that turn anywhere over up to five million pounds a year So, you know looking at a few hundred employees for certain Um, but I think that's our sweet spot the for us again I mean when I first started coaching the marketing was very focused around rapidly grow your cleaning company You know, like let's really grow and get growth and let's you know Strap it to a rocket and let's really shoot for the moon and It didn't fulfill me that much truthfully What really changed it was I worked with a client called Lee in my first four year of coaching and Lee was doing exceptionally well. He'd already had a six-figure turnover cleaning company doing mostly commercial But there was probably um, there was some gaps in knowledge and there was some probably fundamental business things tracking numbers and data and looking at marketing strategies and understanding systems and processes and how to document those and create them all that sort of stuff um, and when Joe, uh, sorry Joe when Lee and I finished working together um Lee agreed to do a video testimonial and I hadn't really spoken to Lee about how he felt about the coaching I knew he was happy with it, but When we sat down and had a conversation I said to him, what was the biggest transformation for you? And he said to me my anxiety is gone and now when I spend time with my family I enjoy it so much more because I'm present That is not what I expected. I thought he was going to say well The business grew um, we actually doubled the turnover in about six months I thought he was going to say we picked up this big contract and we and when he said that I was bored Um, but that struck a call with me more than anything and look It's great when clients turn around and they say hey, we've won a big contract and it's exciting Of course it is but when you feel like you've really made A profound difference in the quality of somebody's life that to me is more fulfilling than anything Which is really why the academy started to focus more towards the idea of lifestyle and lifestyle means different things to different people Some people are like no, I don't want I don't want to do anything Joe Joe with his residential cleaning company He has one person that runs it. It turns over five-figure profit every single month. He works 30 minutes Literally no exaggeration 30 minutes in the business per week. He doesn't want to run the business He doesn't want to be a part of it But for some people it's like I love working, you know, so I want to be a part of it And I think it's having the choice How much do you want to be a part of it and being being able to Do the things you're passionate about without having to feel like the business is Only surviving because of your involvement So the academy kind of moved towards that lifestyle side of things and and that really has become The ethos behind it Working with you just fascinating Your story about Lee kind of kind of hit home, you know, I mean I can I can remember those days, you know that You're always working even when you aren't working you're working that And you can kind of shut it off and then Something will happen that will you know turn it back on and it's like oh I'm working again. Yeah, even though you're not you know, you're That's that's awesome. Happy for Lee Yeah, and and look, it's not like it's going to be perfect forever It's not like things aren't going to go wrong and there's not going to be challenges, but I think it's I'm really getting on to the the kind of the the topic I guess that we want to discuss today When what's the secret though from a coaching standpoint?  You know What do people need the most help with what are the what are the biggest problems that are the the easiest effects? so I would say From a top Level kind of looking from a more kind of meta rather than micro so not looking necessarily at old marketing systems and processes and things it's consistency and its focus so It's so easy to get distracted We live in a world with constant distractions I wear An Apple watch and this thing I regret buying it in some respects. This thing goes off all the time Okay, why did I buy something strapped to my body that sends me notifications? There's always something trying to take your you could turn those off by the way I think I'm gonna have to When you're running a business and especially a cleaning company, there's so many moving parts in a cleaning company It can feel so chaotic It might be that you get a lead that comes in and you think we should really we should quote for that It's not quite the right type of client Slightly out of our area as well Oh, let's do the quote anyway and you win it great But now you're stuck with that client that doesn't really fit the rest of the business and it adds this level of complexity There are distractions everywhere every single day. There are things that are going to grab your attention. There are ideas I mean it's an entrepreneur You're never going to have enough ideas to execute all the ideas that you have You've got to pick a select few and you will just got to go for them So I think From a top level perspective and then we'll talk kind of more micro in a moment What I see is mostly consistency and focus people lose their focus It's like there's so many things that they think they're supposed to be doing They don't know when they're supposed to be doing it. Oh my god. What software do I need? Uh, someone told me that I need to be running google ads, but I don't know how to do that Oh, this clean has called in sick. I have to cover this clean. Oh, I got this lead in or I've got to make some changes to the website There's so many things happening at any one time That ability to stay focused on one goal at a time and to really make it not only a priority But to put almost everything on the back burner not the business as usual things Which keep obviously everything ticking over and running But I mean picking one thing and doing it well for a time So like what's the immediate next step? Um within the academy just kind of give you an idea of how how we do it I think this will give you an idea of where people get stuck as well We've got four groups that we run in the academy. So we've got start. We've got staff We've got scale and we've got step back So the start phase is I either want to start my cleaning company or I've started my cleaning company But it doesn't financially support me yet So most of those people are solo cleaners. They're looking to pick up clients understand the fundamentals of the cleaning industry and make enough money to support them The next step from there is I'm working full time. I want to continue to scale the business, but I'm full So now I have to take on staff. So now I need to transfer my working hours across the staff Without losing my income Because you need to support your family.  So now the next stage for scale is to build a team around you So now we need to think about supervisors and admin assistants and eventually an operations manager or a managing director And then when we've got to that stage and we've got the team around us and we've built systems and everything is documented And the business is fundamentally a systems driven business Now we need to learn to step back and out of the business So these are the big stages that we see people getting stuck out one making enough money to start with Two getting off the tools three building that team and Really building a systems driven cleaning company and then four it's being able to remove yourself from the day to day Without impacting the growth of the business and the quality of the business All right, jamey. What is get off the tools? We don't have to get off the tools. What I mean is stop cleaning So Hey, we say tools, you know like like a handyman or something like that. You're not free Yeah, exactly. Not free exactly that.  What are you going to do? You're going to let the client down or are you going to go and it depends on the client? I suppose but most people are going to go and they're going to do that clean Um, but as soon as you can become let's say mop free It frees you up to grow the business and then your time needs to be spent on really learning how to do that and I think That's something that Doesn't get spoken about enough The difference between being a cleaner and being a cleaning business owner they are Equally as important as each other, but they are worlds apart They are so different and so many people start cleaning and before they know it. They're running a business They start cleaning they pick up clients. Everything's going really well great We're a reputation growing from word of mouth And then they've got so many clients. It's like well, we need some help bring somebody in hire a couple of people find a Subcontractor so that happens and before you know it you're doing no cleaning anymore And now you're running a business, but nobody showed you how to run a business So what do you do? How do you learn how to do it? Well for a lot of people? They just kind of do it and hopefully figure out as they go Because you just you've got one of the choices you don't learn these things at school We don't in the uk and in the us. I think it's fairly similar I know that you can do business in the u.s. You don't learn anything in school Oh, that's a bit harsh. I take that I didn't say that what my microphone is not working. So now we can edit that out, right? It's not live, is it? No um, so Where do you learn these things and I think that's why I believe so much in In investing in yourself The one constant in your cleaning company is you that is the one constant You are going to be the person showing until you can get out of it from the operations long term But up until that point you're showing every single day the decisions the buck stops with you Ultimately, it's it's up to you what happens And you will have situations thrown at you that you've never dealt with before And you need to know how to handle those things. So what happens when Somebody doesn't pay on time And your cash flow takes a hit What happens when you get a complaint from somebody? How do you deal with that? What happens when you get an opportunity to go and quote for this incredible commercial contract? How do you sell that? Um, what happens when somebody leaves you a one star google review for no reason and it's not even true What do you do then? You know what numbers and data do you track? How do you know what software to go with? There are so many questions And I think the best thing that I ever did was find a mentor For my coaching business. This is a fantastic example I've never run a coaching business before I've run a cleaning company and I'm pretty good at it But coaching business have no idea what I'm doing So I'm going to find somebody that runs a coaching business that coaches people to do that So I found myself a mentor and she's been an incredible coach. She showed me so many things I had no idea about coaching business And that has been absolutely valuable to me because It means that I've saved time And I've saved money when I say saved money. I mean first of all I've invested heavily in personal development because I believe it's so important over the past few years alone I probably invested 30 to 40 thousand pounds in personal development just to give you an idea Um, I believe that it's the best investment I've ever made because it's honed my skills It's made me a better coach. It's maybe a better business person It's maybe better at sales better at negotiating better at closing deals. It's made me more compassionate It's made me more knowledgeable And not only have I made a return on investment from my coach from the strategies that she has shown me for my business It means that I can take a lot of those strategies to my clients and then they can make a return on investment for what they do and I think in a world where I don't want this to sound negative Managing people is tough That I've let's say that managing people is probably one of the hardest parts of running a cleaning business And you should absolutely trust the people that you work with and you should never hire somebody and be resentful and think I wonder how this person is going to mess me around this time, right? You shouldn't ever go into any relationship with that mindset However, you know that you can depend on yourself and the more knowledge that you have the more experience you gain The more you learn from other people One the faster you can achieve your goals in my opinion because you're standing on the shoulders of people that have been there And they've had that experience for you. They've made the mistakes and they can tell you Not only hey, this is what you should do But definitely don't do that and in some respects that's more valuable Knowing what not to do is going to save you a crazy amount of time and a crazy amount of money so I think investing in yourself is yeah I mean as the title of the show of the episode says it's I think is the best thing you could do Because that investment is always going to be there You know, you are always going to be in your business. I know that Liz agrees with that. I agree very much with that as well The scary part I guess is oftentimes You're you know You need to make an investment of yourself, but you don't have a lot to invest Financially and you really don't have the luxury of making many bad investments. Yeah, so You know, do you have any advice as to you know, if you're How to make an investment in yourself and do it with confidence that it's going to be an investment that's going to Pay dividends as opposed to An investment that that doesn't That's such a good question. It's such a good question My advice would be if you're looking to invest in anything whether it's software, whether it's marketing whether you're Looking for a coach someone like myself.  You know that feeling when you're like, I've just got a bad feeling about this I don't know what it is But the way that your brain formulates that is there's a motion and then you try to attach words to the emotion afterwards So often you'll get that gut feeling of I think this is a good idea But at that point I think you should do your research if you're looking to invest in software See if there's a free trial or something see if there's a way of testing something out Have a look at reviews have a look at videos and see what people have said have a look at reputation Have a look at feature set if you're looking to work with someone with marketing again See what the reputation is of that person. How many people recommend them? Who do you know this work with them? What results have they had not only that what experience have they had? And when it comes to finding a coach, I think the most important thing is finding someone that you like If you don't like the person, they're never going to inspire you to take action If you can't listen to them for five minutes, you're probably not going to enjoy working with them um Some people might be listening to this thinking I can't stand this guy I don't know what it is. It's just don't like him and my advice would be don't work with me because We'll drive each other insane But if you're looking to make that investment yourself first of all do not sacrifice the stability of your finances um for Any investment is honestly my advice to start with there are Some really great companies out there who provide software yourselves included in that there are companies out there provide great coaching I would love to consider the cleanup academy as one of those companies But you have to put yourself and your family first Don't jeopardize the finances of yourself and your family to invest in something It's always going to be a risk, but you can make it a calculated risk one by doing your research Second by finding out what results have they had who have they worked with what are they like? Um, we offer. I mean just as an example in the cleanup academy We offer your accent. Thank you. Don't get that often especially not in the uk. Um In the cleanup academy we offer a free month actually the reason that we offer a free month and the month month is a long time Imagine someone said to you. Hey, you've seen this car, right? Hey, look at this car. It's gorgeous. Isn't it lovely? And you really want it You are not going to buy that car without test driving it very few people are going to do that And I can sit on a sales call with someone and I'm going to try to sell them Of course I am and I'm biased. It's my business. I think it's great I I you know, I'm not perfect, but I think we're pretty good So I'm going to be biased the only way that someone's really going to know if it's the right fit is to try it out They're not going to know otherwise They're either going to come in and they're going to say, well, Jamie's got the best of intentions But it's probably not for me or they're going to come in and they're going to go This is exactly what I was looking for And they're only going to know that by testing it out I think if anyone's asking you to put a huge amount of money up front Without the ability to try something or at least give you some sort of Guarantee some sort of money back just something to put your mind at ease to me. That's a little bit of red flag Unfortunately in the coaching industry, there is some pretty bad practice Um, there have been some very notorious scams in the coaching industry There have been people faking videos and all sorts of things And this is something that brings down the industry as a whole because then people look at coaching as a scam And I totally get that Say again, Liz. Liz you're muted I want to hear about the notorious Scams, I don't know any of them. I haven't heard any I think um for what president of yours had to one if I remember correctly Like in the cleaning industry scams the cleaning industry, I don't know of too many Nothing, but business coaching for sure. I I've had um Not a scam not a scam. I had a pretty disappointing experience with a with a coaching program myself even invested a lot of money into it And I felt like I got very little in return and I think if I had had the opportunity to test it out before I Committed or just to do a little bit more research myself and speak to more people I think that that could have been avoided and I think that it's If anyone is selling you a get rich quick scheme and they're telling you they can make you A seven figure cleaning company in a year Don't bite. It's not true It's not true I'm not saying that you couldn't go from zero to seven figures in a year if you didn't already have contacts And if you know, you didn't pick up a million pound contract or something But can you mobilize that contract? Can you facilitate that? Probably not business is not binary No matter how many businesses we work with and we will accept there were 40 cleaning companies right now Every single one of those cleaning companies are slightly different Every single one of them and we can give them a blueprint But ultimately it's going to be slightly different for every single person because the operating different location It's a different type of cleaning. They've got different ambitions and goals and dreams and different people different personalities If somebody is telling you that they can make you an absurd amount of money in a short period of time Don't buy it's not worth the investment Do your research and make sure that that investment is something that is most likely to get you a return If you can get a guarantee or some sort of money back guarantee definitely do It's always going to be a risk But business is a risk and if you're already in business, you're probably someone that's not entirely risk adverse So my advice would be do your research Don't get baited in by great salespeople. Do your research Think about the decisions and try and speak to people that have either Um been through the program, you know have good things to say about bad things to say about it Find people that are honest. Um all of our video testimonials for the cleanup academy Um, I don't I've set the questions before we do the call. I have no idea what people are going to say And people say what what's an all they're like this part was great This part not so much and I'm like well it's on the testimonial. I'm keeping it like I'm not going to get rid of it It's the truth and I value that honesty and that and that openness And then it's feedback for us as well that we can improve things and we can Support people better because no one's a finished product. Everyone's a work in progress, you know coaching don't do everything I don't know everything, but we try to help And I do like love the idea That you know, there are a lot of different ways to run a business a lot of different You know Tom and I we speak to this a lot That there are just a lot of different ways to run a business. There is not just the one right way and so A lot of coaching is about helping you to find the right way for you not not not the right way Yeah, um And there's lots of different ways to go about that too. So yeah, I didn't agree with you more I mean We've all been on to facebook groups and you say hey, how do people find Clients for my cleaning company and somebody says Only use facebook and someone goes never use facebook. I've used it.  What you need to do is you need to do flaring I've never got a client from flaring you end up with this and it leaves you going Well, what am I supposed to do then the reality is everything works and nothing works Yeah, right and some people will try a strategy and it doesn't work and they write it off But they might not have had quite the right structure or maybe it just didn't work for their type of business or maybe it was all sorts of things Tom you remember when we were well, we've done this many many times actually Where we are trying to be like ahead of the curve So we'll introduce something and it just falls flat. It's just it's not a thing Actually, I'm going to use an example that is kind of widespread right now Anybody remember the first time qr codes came around? I remember that Here was qr codes They were amazing But man, they fell so flat and then they were gone And now you can't turn around without having a qr code on everything I mean, I think we have qr codes on our mops and our buckets Turn everything nowadays, but it doesn't have a qr code. So sometimes it's timing. You think I'm never going to do that You better really think that revisit that. Absolutely and often Cleaning is so trust-based as well It's not it's not like we all go in and we do a test clean before someone agrees to a contract or someone agrees to You know clean for it's it's you're taking somebody at their word and It's often about the right place at the right time um I think what I what I find often especially working with um cleaning companies doing commercial A lot of people give up early a lot of people will send a Proposal across and they don't hear anything and they go well, they're not interested But we know that if we're professional and we're persistent We're often going to put ourselves in the right place at the right time. We we know where the right place is Right, whatever we choose to market is a great example of that. The right time is all the time We need to constantly be reminding people. Hey, we're here. This is what we do. Hey, we're here. This is what we do Because just because you're ready for someone to buy doesn't mean somebody's ready to buy from you So often it's how can you just remind people that you're there to add value you're there to serve people You're there to help them Um, and I think that's a huge part of it So even if let's say you've had a tough six months a tough year That doesn't mean that the next six months or the next year is going to be tough as well It doesn't mean that it's going to be amazing either. They're not connected But what it does mean is the more that you can be consistent and put yourself in the right place at the right time The more that you can essentially set yourself up for success the more success you're going to see and I think that's something that Is simple but worth remembering We need to be constantly putting yourself in a place so we can succeed getting out of our own way Having good habits being consistent and sometimes that's the hardest thing to do Sometimes the hardest thing to do is doing the stuff that you don't want to do And I feel that pain too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not perfect. I feel that Um, but if you do the stuff that you know, you have to do but you don't necessarily want to do That's the stuff that's really going to get you ahead And I guess that's where coaching comes in because sometimes a little bit of motivation a little bit of accountability We'll get us to do the things that We know we should do but we might not do on our own Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. Couldn't agree more Okay, we we we talked jamie a little bit about Your business. This is your uh website Yeah, that's the one is this joe down here. That's joe. This picture joe. Yeah, the website's very new and it's a little bit of a work in progress So there's some the stock image you see at the top is going to be replaced and things like that But yeah, check out the website. Have a look. There's some great testimonials on there as well I'm going to go ahead and uh drop your url in the comments. Oh great. Thank you Running the audience can easily get to it. Yeah, if anyone's interested, you can book in a call straight from the website So you have clients in in in the u.s. As well Correct. Yeah, we do we do we do we're um What we found is pricing varies definitely. Um the way that uh sales work in the uk are a little bit different the uk are um Notoriously high context. So what I mean by high context is if we want something, it's all would it be okay If I could have one of those please where we talk around things all the time We're so polite that we hamstring ourselves. Um, so The way that we sell is very very different The uk sales is is very like not pushy not you all will want to offend anyone that sort of thing But when it comes to systems and processes when it comes to strategies, we've seen that the vast majority of what we do Works regardless of where you are in the world. Um, so much of what we do Which is why this is such a great fit to be here and speak with you both today So much of what we do is also centered around um Focus on systems processes software automation Setting the business up in a way where it can run in a really efficient streamlined way And really beginning to rely on those things not even right but embracing those things There's so many people that want to operate with paper and pen and I understand it I was somebody who hated using a task list and I hated using a calendar But when you make that change and you begin to really put your trust in those software systems They are going to make your life so much easier so We see that so many of those things are fundamental work regardless of whether it's in uk or anywhere else Um, so a lot of those systems and processes are all the things that we see working in the uk and They still work in the us and companies have worked in the us We're doing great things. We brought it into uk companies and it works too So we work with yeah predominantly uk companies because that's where we're based But we're loving working with people in the us um, I think the us audience there's um people One thing I would say about what I've found personally working with us cleaning companies People understand coaching better in the us because it seems to be a bigger part of your culture If the if it's like a bigger part of your culture to have that coach to have that therapist In the uk people don't love to talk about how they feel You know our expression over here is stiff up a lip, you know You know keep calm and carry on it's that sort of thing So getting people to open up about their weaknesses getting people to open up about how they're feeling and their dreams their aspirations It's very foreign to people Whereas I feel like when we work people in the us people are just so open about how they feel I'm sure that that's not everybody's you can't generalize in that way But we found that it's I think it's much more of a normal thing to be working with a coach and to have that Um, so it's been a blast. We actually love working with people in the us And fortunately as well the time difference is quite nice Our clients in australia. It's pretty tough because when we're doing stuff in the afternoon It's two in the morning. So we have to do some special sessions for them But the time difference isn't too bad from the from the us to the uk Anytime we're doing stuff kind of afternoon evening. It's great because it's it's morning and late morning where you are It works really well It seems like it's a hard time difference with eight hours between but we have A friend a mutual friend That her name is maria dorian. She has a task away va And she's in spain And she routinely operates like you do it sounds like more in the evening That's just kind of her normal schedule And uh, it sounds like that is more common than I even knew about I think I'm I'm very fortunate with with the business that I operate Um, I mentioned tom before we before we went live and I spoke to you about this didn't I as well I was in the us for the first time in the summer and I had an incredible time But I ran the business from the road I was working with all my clients in the uk It was easy with the clients in the us because the time difference was with normal But I was running the business from the road and I'm very fortunate with the coaching business Well, I can work from anywhere. I I live in a beautiful cottage in the uk right next to a farm Right next to a farm shop. It's it's very british. It sounds. Yeah, it's very very british but I do have the luxury of being able to work from anywhere and I think that freedom is It's great because you're not tied to that nine five model you work when your clients need you You work when you feel like you want to you work when you get creative My girlfriend is actually asleep next door in the bedroom. I'm a very much a night owl I get creative around this time I'm probably going to be up for another couple of hours because one i'm going to be Pretty buzzing after doing this, but secondly, this is where my creative juices start flowing So evenings work great. I come alive in the evenings early afternoon Oh blood sugar drops and I probably would prefer to have a nap Um, but evening is great I love that I also have the early afternoon drop, but my mornings are my busy my busy time where I'm more creative and more energized So I but I wouldn't be able to be up like you are at 10 or 11 o'clock Listen, this is the thing everyone's so different again. We were saying about how different people are but people truly are Um, and that's what's fascinating about people. I'm honestly, that's what keeps it fresh Because no matter who we work with it's different working with different people It's people are fascinating people also infuriating sometimes Or I could be infuriating to people. Um, but it's fascinating it's it's there's never a dull moment when you're working with people and I think the feeling of Having any part of somebody being able to achieve something that they never thought they'd be able to achieve Or to have a quality of life that they didn't think was attainable That is the greatest feeling I've ever felt um Just being a part of that celebration with somebody who had somebody recently who picked up the biggest commercial contract they've ever had in their life And the the elation in their voice Um, it's just amazing and to be like I just I never thought this would be possible and I think Pushing the boundaries of what you think is possible Is so important. It's so easy to get stuck in that comfort zone and I'm guilty of this too. Um, but I can tell by your story two and a half months into a job and just I love that you presented a business plan after two and a half months in a job I think you're a little bit of a go-getter. I don't care what you're talking about A little bit of a go-getter. Yeah, I think I think that sometimes that's true. I think like everybody everyone we've all got these personality traits and sometimes it's A benefit and sometimes it's a hindrance and there's always this this duality So I can be obsessive about things And it's great when I'm switched on to things, but I gotta be careful not to let the other areas of my life drop as well So if I'm switched on with the business, I've got to really remember To be a loving caring partner to be there for my girlfriend. I've got to remember to Call my parents and spend some time with them I've got to remember to go to the gym and look after myself and to eat healthy and to Have hobbies and enjoy them and it's it's tough Um, when you are passionate about something and you love something you want to devote all your time to it Sorry, that's my alarm telling me to go to bed and It's 11 o'clock now. I'm probably also our alarm saying we're supposed to be wrapping this up We're at the top of the hour. I'm afraid so we're uh Gonna I think just for everyone that's listening Whatever it is that you're struggling with right now when you're cleaning company I guarantee you someone who's been there and they've struggled with it in the past And someone has been there and they've overcome it or they can support you and help you with it Um, look, I I would love to speak to anyone that's listening that feels like we may be able to help I would I would absolutely cherish the opportunity But regardless of whether it's myself regardless of whether it's anyone else that's out there Find somebody that can help you and support you and guide you show you the way and give you insight And give you tools and knowledge that maybe you don't have yet Um, and just know that you can achieve absolutely anything and I know that sounds cheesy And it kind of is a bit cheesy, but it's true. Don't limit yourself Don't think oh, I don't think I can do that. Don't think oh, I'm not very smart I'm not very this Check into those stories that you tell yourself because the chances are they're not true And the chances are you are capable of everything that you want in your life You've just got to put your mind to it and be consistent so if you want to know more about Jamie and his his coaching programs you can go to his website cleanupacademy.com the url is is in the comments um I have one last question.  Go ahead. You were just talking about the qr code. It's it's basically it's the Technology adoption curve new tech comes out. Everybody gets excited inflated expectations They call this trough of disillusionment when they don't know what to do with the new technology Then you hit the slope of enlightenment and the plateau of productivity So qr codes everybody was excited and then it's like what the heck am I going to do with this? Now we're kind of on this up slope again. You see it time and time again with innovation That's fascinating. I do like that All right, so my question for you jamey because I know we got to go Um, if I go to your website and I check out cleanupacademy.com will I be able to see joe's last name? Yeah, I think so it should be there. That's going to be amazing. I think joe, I see the picture Should I spoil it now? Yeah, tell us joe edwards Edward Very british name, isn't it? It is especially when I say it with a very british accent Yes I was beginning to think that he was maybe a character But all right, there he is. He actually is in Sri Lanka at the moment. He lives in Sri Lanka That's where he's lived since he sold his cleaning business since I left clean moved to Sri Lanka and had the office team running the business Um, what I will say about the website is there are elements of the website It's very new where it's still a little bit of a work in progress You're going to see a couple of mistakes here and there and a couple of things like ugly stock images that I can't wait to Get rid of but all the information you need is there So check it out. Have a look. Um, and I'm really excited. Um, thanks so much for having me. It's been a blast I love being able to speak about this stuff with people that are as passionate about it as I am Just really grateful. Thank you so much Thank you. Jamie Jamie, thank you very much. Liz before we go. Do you want to say anything about your webinar on friday? So we have a webinar on friday with made central Um, and we will be talking a little bit about foundations and the program that we're doing The idea here is what can you do to have this be your best year, right? There are Things currently that you know, you should be doing that you maybe have heard about How do you need to move forward? Why not have 2023 be your best year lots of different things you can do So let's Let's have 2023 be your best year. Talk soon everybody Thanks guys. Thank you. Jamie. It was awesome. Appreciate your help Of course. Bye guys. Bye