to gather together, especially on this topic that is important to everybody. For the first season of Bridges Puentes, which is a series of talks, which we try to delve deeper into what being a dramaturg means in Mexico, what does that word mean to us, and how do we put that into practice. Today is quite a privilege to share this space with these minds, brains and hearts that have put so much into this, their knowledge and their experience into this series. We want to delve deeper into what dramaturg, dramaturg is amazing in Mexico, and to put into practice everything that we've done in our country. And we're going to tell you not in a very light way everything that we have done, everything that these people have done, but I will try to give you a summary of it all. Our first participant is Marta Raralazos, who has been a dramaturg, translator, teacher, playwright, and researcher of theater in Mexico, Canada, in the United States. She comes from the U.N.A., she is also a teacher from the British Columbia University and has studied performance arts by the University of California, located in Berkeley. Thank you, Marta. Here I am. Ana Lola Santana is a teacher, theater teacher and performance teacher at the Spanish department at the Portuguese department of Dartmouth College in the United States. The latest book, Freak Performance, has this focus in the use of freaks as a political figure in performance in theater. She has worked as a translator and dramaturg in several theatrical productions, and is part of the Campanileatro de Ciertos Evitantes. Thank you, Ana Lola. Ana Fademecha Madanese is a theater teacher and translator for the National Autonomous University of Mexico, the Unama, as a scenic translator and dramaturg. He has published and taught and edited all sorts of talks in Shakespeare, theater, translation and film in many places, including Cambridge, Oxford, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Brazil, and Mexico, amongst others. He's a member of several committees that include the MIT Cambridge University Press and the University of Barcelona. He has translated over 45 plays for both the scenes and for their publication. Several places, 2015. He is a assistant director and he's a person responsible of networks and dramaturgist for the Placid Theater Company. She's part of the Congress of the Committees, well, I mean, LMTA 21-2021, and she's a founder of the Mexico team and she participated in the co-alchemy of what the digital world has revealed for dramaturgies from Teatro Entras Piedras and the dramaturgic rebellion of Wittemargo. From the scene in 2020, she participated in the conversation topic, discovering research for scenic arts of the NTSAO 2020. Thank you, Lures. Gabriela Paricio, she's a dramaturgist and a teacher from theater at the Atomas University of Mexico. Since 2011, she promotes the work of dramaturgs. She has participated in summits in Chile, Guatemala and Mexico. She's the winner of the field grant of the team for the LMTA, the expedition project in the search of the Mexican dramaturg and she now teaches theatrical research workshop for Teatralisity in Chile. In 2015, she's part of the Euteria Teatro Collective. She's a dramaturgist. She teaches a researcher at the National Center of Teatrical Research at Rodolfo Center, in which she coordinates the research line for bodies. She has written on dramaturgy in 2020 with her book, Casi Muerte, Casi Vida, manifestations of theater in the Mexican border and for 2011 and 2018, she has been a teacher at several workshops and for the scenic arts, she's a coordinator of seminars and research groups centered in educated young researchers. Brenda Muñoz, she's a playwright, dramaturg and in the freelance, she has an MBA in communications and writing for film from the Vancouver Film School. She currently resides in Mexico City and works with the LMTA as the vice president of Mexico and coordinator of the 2021 Congress. Thank you, Brenda, and thank you all for being part of this. I'm so excited. I'm going to tell you a little bit about the structure of today's conversation. Like any other talks we've had in Penses, we tried to have this conversation the most casual way possible and we wanted to put into practice our dramaturg and her being and try to listen to exercise this listening skill so we will have a series of questions. All of these will be directed to our participants and they will have five minutes to develop the answer. After that, a few of the participants can reply to that. This means that that can be linked to what has been said or maybe that can show a complementary part of or maybe a view point of view that is located that stems from a different position. So let's start. First question goes to Marta Herrera. So how many points do I get? Just two points. So Marta, is it possible to define dramaturgism at least in Mexico? How would you define it? You have five minutes. You're the million dollar question. Well, every time somebody asks me this question, the first thing I tell them is that if you have no idea or have ever asked that about yourself, go to the LMDA website and read what dramaturg is, you know, which is a list of possible tasks so that you can, you know, get to know what it is all about. I actually read it often, which is something that you should don't do. But I'm going to use the program as a participation that we had at Puentes or Bridges, which is because the question is infinite. So I told myself when we participated and Alola and myself in a conversation at Puentes, we saw a few words and concepts that helped us in defining what dramaturgism is. We had the idea of developing the concept and the vision and a companionship effort that is through the director of maybe a play or the collective creation. But sometimes the figure of this director tends to be a lonely one. The dramaturgist involves that part of establishing a dialogue, the trust on whether some ideas are correct or not and providing this space to develop a vision. And then this dramaturg becomes the link or the middle person between this concept and the rest of the teams or individuals within a project. So they become the purveyor of the of the concept that is being developed. A person that helps in make the decision-making process, what happens during the performance, during organizing the performance. You usually have budgeting to think about things that were not considered before. And sometimes this helps us in thinking, we have to make the decisions, we have to delve deeper. And it helps us in making the decisions when we do the setup. We also thought of contextualizing things. You are the person that is contextualizing things, the bridge between the context and the text. What it means for this specific audience, what it means to do for this people and what does it mean to do at a festival or towards the future. Or maybe we will have a new season. What would that entail as well? What changes? What is kept the same? This constant conversation between text and context. And another thing that came up has to do less to do with how dramaturgism is conceived and how an actual dramaturgist is. And that is adaptability. To be adaptable to process these, to be adaptable to work, team working teams to make something different out of a specific text. And that adaptability will allow us to make sure that the concept is realized, to pervade the concept, to help in the decision making process and contextualize the work that is being done. I still have a minute to go. Okay. You can end there. I think that's it. Because what I wanted to say though is that when we were talking, these three people here that day, that was the definition. Those are the points that cropped up. Why? Because when it comes to adaptability, it has a lot to do with what process you're dealing with. Even if you're working within the same teams for every process, it's like what you do with your partner every day is a new relationship, right? So it's the same thing. In a way, you have to understand that adaptability. And the three people that were talking that day in this conversation, having a dialogue on this, there were several things that were happening within our processes as parameters that led us to this conversation. However, if we were to have this conversation again, the definitions might be different. Thank you, Marta. Now, this is, as I told you, a sort of a game. The person who raises the hand can reply to that. Don't raise your hand because that's only a Zoom thing, right? And we don't want to deal with that anymore. So the first person to talk, we said, Marta, that if you were to have this conversation any other day, the definition would have changed. I believe that for, oh, it was a nod. We were okay with that. You're having this conversation again, and I'm sure that we will again change the definition of dramaturgism and continue to expand that even. A phrase that I read at one of Gabriela Parisi's texts was that the dramaturg helps philosophers to structure their ideas. And I do believe that in this process, we do have a lot of philosophers, people who are collaborating. And I like what you're saying, that dramaturg helps the philosopher in structuring their ideas in a room filled with philosophers in which nobody understands each other. It is important to have a person there that says, okay, let's stop. Let's take a reader and let's make a decision that is informed. And I like that. I want to continue to define that. I would like to hear yet another definition. If you had five words to define dramaturg, what would you say? So Annalola, I'm going to put you on the spot. Sorry about that. Well, I do believe that there is an infinite amount of words that can define that. Five is just too few for that. And what Marta is saying, well, it depends on what type of project you're working on. For me, this is something individual because I'm working with a company and I believe that Rudez, that is the same. Every project requires something different from you. And I have to learn to be very flexible, to understand that sometimes I am working with musicians, sometimes I'm working with actors. So it depends on whom you're working with. And that would be what would be required of you. So giving you a definition, like we said before, I'm always based on that phrase mark line. I don't know how to define it. If you cut it, it would bleed me. Do you know what I'm talking about? Well, that's what I'm trying to say. I cannot define it.  So that's how I understand it, how I define it. I cannot tell you what was my exact function at the time. I like to think of the dramaturg as a person that becomes a bridge, a bridge between the scenic affair and the other important and fundamental aspect. And that is the audience, the people who are going to watch. That is a definition that I love because this is the one I work with. And I believe that it is a way in which you open yourself to society, not only to stay there at the theater, building on the stage and actually start a dialogue, starting a dialogue. What happens in all creative processes is very specific, an intimate affair. And sometimes people in the creative teams don't want to share that intimacy. And you understand that because at the end what they're putting in line at the stage is truly intimate, very delicate and painful. Sometimes painful. And it is a way in which you look into the human being and you engage in conversation with the audience. Theater would have no meaning if there were no link with society. And I believe that's what's most important to be this sort of a bridge of mediator of a person that goes between these closed environments that can be a dark theater. This hall is these halls in which many things happen and the creators don't have the opportunity to conceptualize, to review, to reflect upon because their task is yet another to create. So a dramaturg is that person, that person that connects fiction with reality, that connects reality with fiction. And they are that bridge in which they come and go. There's an intense dialogue that happens that should be established because when you open the curtains, maybe you don't see anybody there in the audience. Why? Because they might not be there. And I believe this is one of the efforts that should be made by the dramaturgs. You know, telling, guess what? What is of interest to society is not what's happening here. There's maybe an intense dialogue. There's a need to have certain topics from theater and not just as a form of thought, but also as a specific place for sensations and affective feelings. So I believe that if there's a person that can work in these worlds of communicating both realities, then that would be lovely, ideal. Thank you, Rocío. We will go to the next question. I believe this is for Ana Lola Santana. Now that you have all this experience in working here and in so many other places, what are the implications of being a dramaturg in Mexico? I cheated and I had to jot it down because I get nervous. Sorry about that. I'm going to read something to you, but it is five minutes long, okay? The country in which dramaturg C was born defines the work of the dramaturg as a combination of as a writer and literally counsel in the way in which they develop the vision of a play and they are also in charge of the repertoire of the company and their publicity. Amongst the responsibilities of the dramaturg is the definition of the programming and asking which plays are to be set up. What would be the logic of the repertoire? What other theaters are going to other plays are going to happen? How can they be different from other companies to have a specific profile? What are the young authors that you need to pay attention to and how you're going to help your actors in their development and I? And this is okay, but it also implies that the dramaturg has an integral work to do when it comes to the scenic arts and that also implies that you work for an institution or official company that requires these types of tasks done. That is a network of theaters with enough funds to be functional that actually need of this particular line of work. I believe that in Mexico we have yet to get to this place. That does not mean that their existence would not be possible, but the doings of theater are still suffering limits in budgeting and this affects the professional aspect of a dramaturg. First off, I don't want to be the voice or give general knowledge as to what it is to be a dramaturg in Mexico. I believe that this is an evolving profession and as this conference has shown it will be recognized as an essential figure for national theater. Mexico even before this was a recognized term. The presence of the dramaturg was actually tangible whether he was an extra official observer or official one and I can tell you as my experience that I've had as a dramaturg which has occurred in a very different way in which the institutionalization of the work has happened. I started my career in the United States at the end of the 90s with an NFA which is called Master of Fine Arts Dramaturgy from the University of California in Diego and I recognize that when I started the program I had no idea as to what a dramaturg would entail. My career then started in the United States, my education. Then I started to work as a dramaturg in Mexican theater specifically with Claudia Valdescote and his company Teatro de Ciertos Habitantes with whom I continue to work with as of today. This has been quite the privilege that made me work as a dramaturg with other directors in Mexico. However, my main commitment is with the company. My work with Ciertos Habitantes implies some of the things that Apke has talked about but I am not in charge of the theatrical repertoire or the publicity. What I do though is linked to the way in which the company creates theater which has defined what I do for over the past 20 years. From the get-go I understood my function as a person in charge of giving context to the world of theater plays to forge a critical link between the artists and the designers and technicians to mediate conversations amongst directors, actors and designers and to establish connections between text actors and the audience. Although Ciertos Habitantes is a company that is in search of many things focused in a process that would allow the artists to realize of their constant evolution alongside the play, this focus that I had traced for my work is the natural consequence of the methodology of creation by Valdez Podi. Their work relationship that was developed required a high level of trust between Podi and myself because we need to maintain the fragile balance that is composed of comprises imagination and the long work of setup through also long period of criticism and study. The work of the company has been based on scenic research with a purpose and finding what human condition is all about through theatrical work and this implies the long processes of laboratory processes that go over two years that strive for participants to go through several internal external experiences. The reality of this method is that my work as a dramaturg constantly shifts in terms of the necessities of a play at hand. Claudia Vadascote takes us through unexpected places that are constantly expanding and enriching the definition of my work as a dramaturg and based on my experience with other directors I believe that this is exactly what implies to be a dramaturg in Mexico to expand and to enrich our professional endeavors through the search of theatrical expression that should stain on top regardless of what happens in the country negatively that is. Who would like to reply to that? First off I want to congratulate myself because some of the questions that are coming up would be to me and they would actually be similar to whatever you have said so there would be no need to repeat myself but this thing related to the conditions of doing dramaturg in Mexico are not in a way the ideal situations and by far not even comparable to those that happen in other countries in which theatrical institutions are actually well created. You said that these are official institutions and I believe that the official aspect should be removed because these are institutions that have worked with all the means they have and they have in a way survived so many tempests and storms that have happened for Mexican projects. I believe that it is extraordinary as well for a company like that of Valdescote has had that longevity and provide the opportunity to offer a minimal safety in terms of structure that they have this notion in mind but they are the exception to the rule however and you would have to keep that in mind because they are also part of what causes of volatility that we have been talked about previously volatility that we can definitely enjoy because it is enjoyable everybody explains some form of enjoyment out of it and in the end what I do or not do as a part of that specific area of dramaturgy in this area can also be enjoyable but how can you lever up the structure in such a way that it actually fits the way in which it should fit to make sure that things actually happen and that is the expansion of the consciousness of your presentation but also the practical result that also generates other synergy so that our theater can become what we have dreamed of for so long again I congratulate myself in the fact that this is very clear and as clear as water can be so I have some time should anybody would like to talk and now when it comes to working as a dramaturgy in Mexico it is common that the people that work in theater also work another type of media and television and radio and films or what have you so for me it has been a very interesting experience to become as a cover up make a cover up work as a dramaturgy because a work because a word is just so close to theater right so so it becomes a bit more complicated to come in with bearing the title but what's interesting of this matter however is that it won't generate the need of making more of generating the work that we do but it forces the teams to discover this type of work through doing things and in this creative process whether you're doing a content counseling for Netflix for instance or another project that could be a lot more multimedia in nature that would be not a play per se even though it is but as an immersive experience if you will which theaters is anyway but in a way it tells you how you do the dramaturgy work as I described it here without actually naming it like that and the teams themselves as individuals start to discover that endeavors is something that is actually happening so they say well this this happened and I didn't never in these processes we had this or this types of conversations so there's always a process of doing cover up work and you know and of naming things the way there should be named so have the name dramaturge there that is a part that is a process and that is usually the battle that we have and in my experience it has been specifically that to become to do cover up work you know because sometimes that's what theater does for you anyway it is necessary also in other spaces however in Mexico and other spaces of creation not only in the scenic arts thank you we still have a minute to go anybody else would like to make the most of that you know but not that thing as a dramaturge it would be a performative act in which you have to do things to make sure that they actually happen and otherwise it wouldn't exist until it's done and it disappears once it happens so that I believe it is very interesting that in a room filled with philosophers dramaturge me the dramaturge slash actor component and I also think it's very interesting because when we've talked about this with everybody who is a dramaturge who is not I think the experience of going undercover perhaps I will do that tomorrow great friend and we'll look forward to the next question and in effect it is for and let me tell you first that each one of these questions emerged from the episodes of when this bridges in which they have been guests guest speakers for so if you want to look into these topics more delve into it look into lnda under point this and you'll see some of the videos there so I'm here's your question the behavior of a dramaturge who how when why can a person become a dramaturge in Mexico regarding the behavior of a dramaturge I think this has to do with the when this program in addition there is a visual aspect that has to be taken and do it out here and that reflects a cultural aspect in turn in turn of this profession and are placed in a here but there is there is something else that draws our attention and I say this because in effect I am the eldest here amongst us and what this means here is that there is an experience this is not undercover dramaturge but rather unknown that is that has not been identified as such nonetheless was occurring perhaps in my biographic notes and here we would look at a translator for the stage and dramaturge it would appear that this is partial because the effect here is that in my own interventions in the same areas the total un incomprehensible work of a dramaturge I've done this I've done that I've done the other without ever saying this I've given you an example and this became became a reality when I was the professor of the specific course and this when it came back to me and I have gotten closer and I insist in partial manner this characterizes what I have done primarily in an area that is very specific and also contrasts with other aspects when Annalona was talking about the origin of the word etc entails textual management which the management of the text that becomes diluted into other areas and other ways of delving into the theatrical processes primarily I have also approached it from the side of translation of text particularly from English into Spanish and specifically Shakespeare which have ended up constituting a certain awareness with those whom I'm working with of the need and existence of this figure this has been gradual I began with XYZ and they said what do you have for us well I'll turn over the production but very likely you're going to need something else and that is for me to say why how when where what's happening where do you where is it coming from because you're going to be facing things that if you look at them it might be the result of something that continues to operate very firmly in our environment and that is authoritarianism verticality centralism of processes when a director of one of these people says tomorrow I'm going to close the door for the practice room rehearsal room they do it something like that happened to me in general I don't work with people like that and I've been fortunate enough to be able to have very good relationships with whom I I'm working with and have doors open for me and what assuredly we all know must be and there are other experiences here and that is on the one hand the behavior that then leads to the next who how when where why I think that there is another aspect here that we must look at we have to consolidate ways of education in theatrical environments that will create awareness for those who are arriving and are curious where I work now I worked in the English literature department but now I work in the theatrical literature department and there is a beginning a sketch perhaps an outline of education in this regard through theater courses but what they need is to be fine-tuned they need to be reworked we need to perfect many of these activities so that they could do away with this authoritarian central vertical mandate here so that when students want to come into this process and in the past they have been rejected the dramaturg says look you go get the coffee that's what you're going to be doing here this is true a true story and from that moment on you realize that a lot has to be done to change this and on the other hand here's what I was also saying how do we resolve the financial issue and stability issues of Mexican productions let's not call them companies just production in present day circumstances what we cannot do is reject them do away with them nor can we reject the old patterns and I think I have run out of time thank you Alfredo five minutes for a rebuttal who would like to reply here I have something I want to say very briefly the question makes me think of the fact that we can catalog who can be a dramaturg and who cannot I don't know why we think that why we think there's a list of characteristics that have to be meant to be a dramaturg but what Lola and Alfredo said regarding education the lack of safe places this this true of the theater environment here there is no safe place for anyone here in theater but something that has granted some stability for me is that precisely because of this type of reaction that Alfredo is talking about with young people it is the young people who are driving these ideas they seek other sources of work the table that is closing today is Bruno's and there you can see what the young people are doing something else that I know is that at least in Latin America it is the women dramaturgs who are driving this activity of dramaturg does anybody have anything else to add I have something I will add it's like the chicken and the egg if you're saying that there is no safe place to produce theater in Mexico neither for producers nor actors I do believe and I have faith that dramaturgs create these spaces so perhaps they don't exist and it would appear that there is no room for a dramaturg but when a dramaturg does arrive and reeks magic we can create safe places so if we look at that first undercover entrance here that's a question for the audience as well I think that's something important here and what I would like to add is that we began working without this preconception so many of us started doing things that now in due time we find that can be conceived of as dramaturgic but the fact that we didn't have from the onset this concept in place gave us a lot of freedom so I really like the idea that this event is called without borders because I think that is the place from where we are operating without borders or with borders but crossing borders and this has to do with what you just said Brenda we're constantly expanding taking it further proposing other ways of doing things in this regard I think that we are inventing and writing our own dramaturgy of the term in Mexico we haven't finished and that's a good thing because that gives us a chance to constantly improve to keep it alive dynamic to redesign it rework it tailor it render it subjective where needed and that is of the essence we had a talk with the young people from dramaturgy rebellion Jose and Bruno and when I was looking at the images here of Fuentes these bridges the name of these this program it has to do with art and stage in the 21st century but there is something that reminds of reminds us of the codexes and the Malinche and our Aztec roots that indigenous woman who became the translator between the original peoples the indigenous groups and the world of the Spanish conquerors and with her ease of mastering languages she became that bridge that translator and that is how I think and I'm throwing this out there because I think it's a very provocative proposal and very entertaining to think that she has been our very first dramaturgy and as a Mexican this woman who brings two cultures into touch through language through translation who knows how to read and understand what's happening on one side and adapt it to the context for many years this figure this person the Malinche was misconceived and misthought but even at this historic level today we now find that she is a very valuable personality and from here I think of her as that first dramaturgy and she had the possibility of bringing together two worlds okay so if we were to bring the Malinche to this day and age quite definitely she wouldn't be playing that role of just being a translator of a language she would be a translator of cultures a translator of languages in the broadest sense of the term I find that fascinating and that is why we believe that dramaturgy in this country is just now being invented every single day and in so far as this keeps happening it is a sign of life thank you Rocío Ana Olga do you have something to add Ana Lola yes next question is for Lourdes Guzmán Lourdes which do you think is the work of the dramaturgy in production processes what does the dramaturgy do in Mexico that's good I'm glad that you have said Mexico because that's the only place I know anything about well I think that although my experience isn't that new I think that it is shorter than that of other companies present here today but in my experience this entails preparation this isn't something that you can improvise this isn't something that somebody with goodwill could undertake and of course you can but it doesn't stop there goodwill I think it's also important to recognize the preparation required in order to carry out the work the flexibility which has also been mentioned because in each case something different is going to occur you need different things in place depending on each work each production each place and time but let me go back to something specifically mentioned by Ana Lola and I believe that it is relevant and that is trust we can achieve nothing without trust the scope of what we can do would be very limited if we didn't have trust in our work team if we didn't have the chance to keep doors open to have a voice that can be heard and make certain decisions I also think about flexibility without a doubt respect comes into play and expressed in many different ways one might be paid the way in which we value our work and make sure that it is not just something that we do out of love and in good faith and goodwill but that we may be able to support ourselves I think dramaturgy needs to be grounded much more firmly in Mexico I think that we have taken strides toward this very clear strides and there is more to be done yet but I think that part of what is imperative here is that we not be mysterious we need to render the work visible we need to be open we need to adjust and in addition we have to be very willing I also think that this is the entails generosity willingness but also important is that it be mutual let me add something that perhaps doesn't prop up very often but very important I think everything that I've heard is impressive but at the same time I think it's extraordinarily fun and entertaining I think that there is curiosity all the time here that was also present in the dramaturgy rebellion and in our school and drama and theater and this curiosity that I think is a shared trait without curiosity we would be unable to have this source of questions that drives us to imagine exactly what is happening not just here but also on the other side and in the middle what are the dialogues that are possible to embark on I'm not sure how much longer I have 48 seconds very good let me finish then so overall I think that rendering this visible what we're doing has been very clearly stated with all of us present here today and it's important to talk about variety I'm sure they mentioned in a moment ago I marvel at the possibility of being able to convene here with people who are from generations that have come before mine with people who are my generation with younger people and with different perspectives from Mexico from abroad and many different possibilities out there and many many prospects for example I remember Rocío you have also emphasized philosophy and I think that this is fundamental support because what we have in common here is asking questions and ultimately I think it's imperative to recognize that this is teamwork always we would never be able to conceive of dramaturgy carried out alone thank you Lourdes I want to answer what Lourdes has said because I want us to add more to that concept of trust in my experience with students and how we enter into these creative spaces without being set just to go and get the coffee at the end of the day since my process the creative process is vulnerable everybody's creative process is vulnerable because creation is opening up and becoming vulnerable in order to expand so I think trust is of the essence I very often recommend that we must work as dramaturgs with people who already trust us part of stem from the basis of your relationships healthy open relationships based on trust perhaps there then you can establish a relationship as a director or a dramaturg and trust for me is like what Alfredo said there are hierarchies there are ways of working that are very closed and sometimes then we must say what does it entail to open something up the key was lost there's nowhere to go in and open it up the key has been lost and when you have the privilege of working with whom you work well with that is marvelous the question arises in terms of our teaching or our preparation how do we teach trust is it something that you teach how is it taught and to whom it is based on this that everything else will transpire and once that door of trust is opened up for the dramaturg it becomes the greatest trust the person that you most trust is the dramaturg the person to whom you can ask anything else with that person you have full trust and I'm throwing this out there uh that trust where when how how why is the starting point that is of the utmost importance particularly in the context of how we teach and how we are trained and raised up in the sport and could could I add something yes what you have said is very interesting regarding education the education process because I do think that on one side dramaturgs must have a level of training you have to have education and training there's another process of educating around our work and here in an anecdotal manner let me tell you the following I was asked the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Stage Directors asked me to produce the section on Mexico so I interviewed many directors many producers and a lot of these a lot of what happened was that it was hard to get in touch with them I had to do some name dropping and I'd have to tell them who I was and try to get them to answer my calls what happened was that the first question is you're what what do you do who are you so I had to explain what my work was who I was and two jobs came out for me from that experience um as a dramaturg they were fascinated by the idea that such a profession existed when I told them what it was I did so this is something that we have to foster we must write articles on what uh dramaturgy involves we have to educate and what you said WL the new generations recognize this but we have a whole lifetime behind us of people who have no clue of who we are and what our work is and it's wonderful to be able to teach them now that we exist for a reason and that we can make your life easier than you in ways that you never dreamed of by executing this process thank you analola I don't really have a reply here but I want to add my voice to something and I don't think that the following has been said enough or it hasn't been as clear as it could be and that is that a dramaturg always takes care of the integral process that means explaining to others what you do over and over again but also to awaken that trust and be there in the present in the moment listening and taking care of those who are on the other side and that is something that means to work shoulder to shoulder with your whole heart and mind is something that is taking place right them and there that was my reply next question and it's for Gabriela Aparecio what does the work of the dramaturg contribute to other areas within a production I get really excited and passionate and forget the time so keep track of it please this question opens up many doors here because I think of all that has been said and we can't just say that dramaturg does one given thing we do thousands of things we could have a whole discussion on the work of the dramaturg with the designer with the actor with the producer with the director with everyone different roles we play but to answer the question one thing is the process of working side by side with the process in the process finding a path we're always there to direct and in the best and move and reaffirm encourage be a presence and also help to resolve crises all processes need someone to do that and I think in major terms that's what it is to give you some easy examples working with the director perhaps is to reaffirm the idea reminding them what they are doing because sometimes they forget and sustaining these conversations as a dramaturg expressing your ideas and making sure that someone is listening and working with design entails many different things so perhaps regarding research taking care of the of the aesthetic part of it colors textures everything that has to be harmonized and in terms of acting triggering things through my investigation through my proposals foster something and somebody else and this produces something very interesting for the actor and I also feel like this is a great frustration and perhaps then I'm no longer rendered visible all these conversations that everybody has been talking about sometimes you become invisible because you see the results you see the results of the producer the designer the director but none of the dramaturgs work so sometimes in Mexico then this dialogue and the trust and what Martha has pointed out I think that in these processes in Mexican theater this is what we need it would have to be through listening and learning about the unknown part it's processed with the dramaturg with the director but not with other areas this is something that happened with Fatih too and that dialogue would have to help us find meaning here and this is what the non-unification here maybe non-harmonizing the directors on one tack the designer on the other the dramaturg can also be immediately to harmonize it's not just that we are thinking about a personal or individual vision but rather that I think that that is precisely what Ana Lola mentioned that this is what we know as being important and necessary a comprehensive vision not just one that we're throwing up in the air here so precisely I think that it's important to study the dialogue there are other dramaturgs that say look I can't approach the director I can't approach the actor what do you mean you can't approach them it's not forbidden the dramaturg is not some evil presence here so we are all important players in a package here and we're all working toward this one goal and this is for something that is comprehensive in creativity not just individually and so we must forge ahead thank you Gaby you would like to reply to that when I was with you Gaby I started thinking of this a matter that has to do with the companionship that you offer because in the scenic arts you always have a teamwork you always need the cooperation of others and you do that for others as well so that entails companionship but I believe that a very important step would be to the partners with each other as dramaturgs because here we don't find something that would be amazing to have that is to have enough protection more than one dramaturg that would make that would ensure that all productions on Omisen Sen would be enriched will be better especially when it comes to asking questions I believe that this is also a very human aspect of facing things as a team press on ahead you know even the enjoyable parts of it all you know knowing that things are happening as it should be happening but also when we have a crisis when we nobody knows what's going to happen when people look at the work plan and it looks as if it were written in Greek and everything becomes confusing and you have to make decisions for that I believe that an indispensable part of it all of our work and that for me a result quite gratifying is feeling that that I have a partners in crime if you will working with me hand in hand I feel bold and protected and safe and certain too that things will actually happen because I am working with my team and I believe that this companionship of sorts has very important aspects that we can appreciate and harness for our benefit these are all practical matters everything that has been said I believe we can see a few needs when we talk about you know parameters doing things well it will be necessary to establish practical objectives and a vision objectives that could in a way even strive for a form of legislation what I'm trying to say is that when I was mentioning that the diversity of tasks that we perform well I thought to myself the last time I delivered a specific translation adaptation or production well ideally companionship work I did the counsellor counselling I was also a director and I did translation and the proofreading so I'm contributing so that the task in and of itself is unfortunately not being recognized so what happens well there's no structure support structure that would be enough for you to tell you well this is the limit of your tasks and when you cross that limit then you have to call yourself something different why because unfortunately theaters in Mexico and especially in companies Mexico offer terrible contracts the legislation is just terrible so the other objective that I can think of is that we need to find a paradigm shift something that has to happen from the core from the education of those people that want to find these places for the Mexican theater telling these people that we do have a cultural baggage that you need to study that you need can build up a career that you have different processes and productions but also trying to change the paradigms upward you know that vertical nature of things that we have explored we were talking about creating bridges and doors and keys and I believe that the main key is to change the paradigms mental paradigms of directors which is something that has existed in Mexico ever since they started working here a long time ago we have this idea that the director is this omnipotent nemodal figure and now people are understanding things differently even the youngsters are doing differently and however we have yet to find a cohesion and I hope I live long enough to see the change I do believe the future will be good but the president has things that need to be tackled first let's go to the next question with our next panelist I believe that this is linked directly to the replies that we have been seeing on this last question what can society do to do the art of our community and what can dramaturgy give to society well first of this link of making sure that the arts that theater have the faith that it should be having and things that unfortunately are left to the waste by especially when we consider budgeting usually health care or social benefits they usually go first and it looks as if arts was just an ancillary budgeting that it is just last last place you need to explore and I don't believe that is the case when we had a conversation with the uh this panel the last time we understood that art are fundamental why because otherwise we would think only of preserving biological life that is the life that you see in a plant or an animal and they are important and get me wrong like that of a human being but human being has something that is different that has to do with a sensitivity the feelings that you have the possibility of symbology in a symbological manner create yourself and this is where arts comes in and if we're not going to be just plants or just animals and it would not want to be reduced to a simple form of biological life when it arts understand the pain that society goes through and in the sense in this country like many others around the world but specifically as we focus on Mexico and maybe to Latin America as well we have a gone through very difficult contexts that have been hard involved in violin a social asymmetry that has been very pronounced to reduce the life of people to whether they are expendable or not is just wrong and art doesn't do that what we need to think of is that that is exactly what we provide that great differential and from the task of the dramaturg themselves we say that we need to center and give this ability to this very important task that is everything that happens in arts it is not ancillary issue it is something that is actually vital what we are put into play is the mental health of our population not just the physical well-being but actually mental health and equilibrium possibility of thinking of these symbols of understanding that in on the stage where you have maybe hamlet on the stage from one moment to another it can be a castle and then it turns into a desert or a jungle there's possibility that is thought about of moving with the flexibility is extremely important and in order to include not to take much of your time we have to think of the other and I believe this is fundamental this is the work of the dramaturg to think not only that everything that happens in stage matters it is not just a field in which the art is working but that our raison d'etre has to do with the consideration of others I put a very practical example that is actually a great example that is that one of our peers was telling me that it would be very difficult to read theater and I told him that's not the case I believe it is even harder to read philosophy I'm going to tell you what the difficult of reading theater is that is that in one line you will be a criminal and in the next line you will be the victim and how do you move through this flexibility of putting yourself in the shoes before the other and I believe that that place is fundamental and that is something that only art can give you from this place you can feel the pain of others you can feel that you can do more for them and from this place you find all these connections through going through these orders that have to do with the specific locations in which theater happens and and this hierarchy of theater that whether you have a cult like theater or even public theater this paradigm shift that had been pointed out by Alfredo are fundamental to understand that how see that these structures work and see where those loopholes in which we can engage into directly and create connections with that would be fundamental to me thank you Rosio I would like to add to that I honestly what I have just said completely moved me this question of whether you are getting out of the cultural sector and understanding what is our place in the world and I hear you and I say to myself exactly that whether we find a empathy where do we develop our emotional intelligence and develop that sensitivity in some sense we see the decision makers those who do public policies and I believe that could be a far away example but it's actually quite close like for instance when the FIFA was sanctioned the Mexican team for engaging in homophobic cheering and you see all the people involved in FIFA having these types of conversations and at an abstract level and what they don't understand is that you are aware you are as a collective what do you see these spaces of empathy what do you see these spaces of knowing where this violence might come from this learned and performed violence that happens in public spaces or our stadiums are we going to create official and public policies just tackle that we can do whatever you want all the social sciences and natural sciences can be there but if we do not understand our existence in terms of consciousness of awareness of our own intelligence and spirit and effective intelligence then it will be impossible for all these things to change from the root and this is when you see that things are actually vital this is the space the physical space in which these things happen which this creative dialogue actually happens and for me listening to you made it very clear to me that role that we're performing is very clear and we as dramaturgs we are the people who create this connection when we forget we have the team the space and this is what we're doing and we find ourselves in a rather ample spectrum this is just it is very true you need to have this view from the outside inward and impact ourselves but it usually starts from home the dramaturg has this and very important first responsibility to change from within when act change from within i'll give it just an anecdote director let's say and i deliver the product i am very happy with the text and then the director brings it back to me no maybe a week later through email and he butchered the whole thing and i tell him well what are you doing and then he tells me if i were not too appropriate myself of this text then i can't do anything to do it with it i tell him well you can't appropriate yourself with things you don't understand and then we engage in a very important conversation and they tell him well you know what let's discuss this in a while eating in the meal you have to understand this is not the case why because you don't know what we're talking about even that is one of the very first experiences in which you tell yourself well your authority is not over my own authority and what you're trying to do with this text and present that to the public then that would that would finish that would be the finishing touch to a project that i generated alongside an actor and this is a part of my work as a dramaturg that is actually not a dramaturg and to offer to the audience something that would be of lower quality you understood that and that was one of the best plays in which i have participated but you have to strike first you know strike the iron wall it's hot and this is a play that was actually very good that was made for women and that would shed light into the female condition because every woman that talked about their experience in this were very happy to participate in a project that would have been different had i allowed the director to do his free thing so this is why change has to happen from within the dramaturg has to be prepared to exert authority at the level in which they yeah that was very precise let's go with our last question of the day and that has been working quite a lot to make sure that lmda mexico actually happens to find each other here and we have mentioned a lot many things on but it's still missing to do but this question for you what what is still missing you in mexico i believe that is a hard question of them all i have been taking a few talks like any good dramaturg would have done by listening to their colleagues and teacher and i believe that what lures has been saying regarding this companionship nature fair is something that is important to remember especially when we talked about when we were having a dialogue with an apprentice you know you have to in a couple of dramaturgs being part of a particular project we talked about these affairs and i believe that we are going in the right direction we're still you know loading if you will so you have to study the structures i don't know exactly how to do that but we have for them to help us with that so what do we need to do in mexico what is still missing i have a certain answer but i believe that what's missing is exactly this no teamwork collaboration to embrace each other to talk to the people yes of course we have to call each other by name to file things and record them you know to let people know that the work of a dramaturg actually happened because sometimes you don't you can't even tell that it happened but it's actually there know so that the people in the front lines can actually see that no for things that happen really well you see that there is a background work sometimes you see these credits in a program that has to happen and happen every time so that you can see that work has been done conversation collaboration naming each other recording call each other by name and i believe i i look at you because i don't know exactly what needs to happen we are this is something that we're discovering together we need to keep asking questions you have to look into the point this program because it provides a one-on-one as to what dramaturgy is all about and i have no idea honestly i please help me dramaturgic holly you fellow dramaturgs please help me with this to create an individual vision because sometimes we see the united states and germany other places in which we do not find ourselves and i believe that a very important thing that has been happening is recognizing how the processes that have been happening here recognizing that we don't have the optimal conditions for work career and for education that regardless of this we're engaging in dialogue to make sure that it actually happens and that there is a clear vision as to how you can empower your the dramaturg in mexico and something that i talk with rocio all the time about is alighting our thoughts and put them into papers because we do not have a bridges per se one of the many problems that i find when i'm doing my workshops especially focused in the of dramaturg is that i usually don't have sources you know i can tell you all read less thing or read wherever ever you don't have a specifically a person you can say let read it and it amarta um rocio it is quite strange that we have yet to generate our own sources to engage in dialogue from our own thoughts you know we have to make sure that things are being brought to paper and stop thinking of what is happening in other countries of course we can use them as a reference but we need to question them and use themselves well i don't know if that helps yes it does help i believe that we'll make a dramaturgic rate in nexico i don't think that will happen specifically in mexico you cannot you know just grab something from elsewhere and cut it and paste it here in mexico maybe yes that can happen so we have to try to do that in mexico for mexico and to keep this conversation open you know that it's very necessary feedback and although although we don't have bibliography in mexico we have your own work the work done by erie by analola by alfredo valour this by everybody going to be recorded this will be recorded so you can go back to it as you did but going back to what you said on less things oh it's there it is there of course it's and we can't say that we're not going to look into it because we do things different in mexico that would be foolish of us i would believe that we have to take from everywhere in order to achieve that now that you've mentioned nothing i say that because every time i ask somebody knows who lessing is they usually go what was that and that makes me a bit angsty as to well we know exactly what a dramaturg is but if we do not know the origin of it then we're lost i don't know if you were studying the university did you ever listen to your teachers saying well who's lessing i never really had that experience and i believe that this is also an important thing how a document centuries ago has yet to be touched upon and coming from that the very first translation into spanish from the hamburg dramaturgy in mexico actually happened in 1997 and these are centuries that were never too explored we have to re-appropriate that and i'm sorry for taking that whole microphone but i believe the translation are also very important because finding a correct translation is yet another field usually translate drama turned into playwright for instance so there is no actual clarity as to the what the terminology entails that unfortunately makes me think of a problem of the the very large volumes that is the deficiencies that we find in education in our country because if mohammed doesn't go to the mountain if the mountain doesn't go to mohammed then the mountain goes to the mohammed goes to the mountains why because we do not have efficient linguistics education we do and sometimes we don't even have access to other languages which is a fundamental aspect for education at every level and for every profession and this is not just about theater and dramaturgy i believe strongly that an engineer of certain repute has to have access to these types of texts and in our university the problems that we have are not only deficient but also very ill conceived they only work to make sure that you can answer maybe an an exam that said a test that said that you can take a test and this is the work that we need to do from the base of the pyramid this is a deficiency that happens specifically for those who want to be part of these aspects because the biography in the end is actually quite large there's a lot of sources of information there are books out there and i usually when i have my students with me now that this is the second year of teaching that i have i usually give all these texts to my students why because they were part of the english department and turns out that 80 percent of my students have no access to that or they feel a little weak when it comes to engaging into they have to create bridges that is people that might help those that can't access it they have to provide that access to them create these connections and so that you can come and learn however through the pandemic this has been made a little harder but you have to be ingenious about it so the deficiencies from the base up unfortunately has something that we have to catch on to and has to do with what Rocio was mentioning as part of our task if you want to contribute to that you will do that we'll do so and i want to mention that it this is also a process that is still very because we have Marta who is in the position causes of Michael Chambers book and is going to be released in the etymology editorial and that i believe that that's also important because is the book of Michael Chambers which is a basic text in the state for the work of the dramaturg is not known here well i believe that Marta another Mexican dramaturg is not only translating it they're also remaking that for a Mexican context and i believe these are contexts that are actually happening and it is also important as i said to publish many things we have a wonderful theater a magazine can describe what we do we actually wrote an article together about using myself um we talked about our working relationship we produce to play so we have to force it in a way because it is important to make sure that this is understood and that there is an example out there of what the things are actually happening but all in all i want to thank Marta for what you're doing and in this sense i want to question the premise of the question because the word a lack is something that we're missing is something that we're actually really bereft of that this is a deficiency an actual and i believe that part of what truly makes me think of what gaby is saying is that we do not need to compare ourselves to others and i believe that other every process that the dramaturg in mexico is exactly what the dramaturg in mexico has to be today and when i'm going to stand still because you never are supposed to stand still so it we're exactly we're supposed to connect to movement both further than just thinking of our lax or the things that are bereft of you know what that's what i was saying the access to different languages and action and for me translating this you know having that course in dramaturg theater faculty would mean that i would give the biography to the students that had no access to it and we fix that problem not only in my presentation but also in the classroom and we work like this i ask the people who has access to the text or one of you will read the other world translate and the other person will read you something new with the text even though they don't have access to it directly so and that's okay we always have the bridges that we can form and this profile that is being given to us of those of us who have the privilege of accessing other languages we sometimes forget when we take it for granted or we even sidestep ourselves with how we hear linguistically speaking with ourselves this sometimes we don't listen to or saying you know if you think things from a different perspective and engaging in a dialogue with that maybe things might change so for me my translation my translation the person i trust the most in checking my translation is somebody that has no access into the target language because there will be the person that will detect something that it hits the ear wrong and that doesn't sound correct you know and saying that there is something missing or that there is a lack of something makes me sad instead of saying well we as a collective where are we heading or where should we head for and we are find ourselves in this process we're never too old or never too young or never too this or that and want to make sure that this part is conveyed because i get excited about it i don't want to give you this idea of that being bereft of something to live in a world of such abundance and i want to no longer have that idea of being bereft of things and put ourselves in this perspective as it's abundant thank you for this lesson okay um it's my turn now to be the dramaturg and tell you that we are out of time i have so enjoyed this um inhabiting and sharing this space with you has been so great we can continue our talk outside of here so let's do away with the border let's make sure that our conversation can be ongoing for those who are present here for those who are on the other side of the screen as well we have hashtags we have websites we have a lot of channels through which we can communicate one with another and i have to recognize that i was very fortunate and i had a wonderful teacher who is always present in my mind and heart um whenever marta turis who isn't here right now but who is an episode number one of puentes if you have a chance uh take a look at it and um if you want to continue this conversation go to the puentes website thank you each and every one of you we thank you


Probably we also have students watching us who might be studying as part of a course in subtitling or might be doing a master on individual translation. What tips can we give to that? Obviously they should because students within their original translation and subtitling courses already mentioned the importance of being competent in English as the source of language and perhaps continuously improving your English and getting certified. What are the certifications in English that you mentioned? What else such students should focus on? I think that or if I think about my students that say practice a lot, trying to make sure that you really know the program you're using, whatever subtitling editor you're using very very well, that you are aware of the settings, the parameters, that you are aware of what it means to make sure that the reading speed is of fine, but also about the spotting, you know, changing the titles, minimum gaps, you know, those little details, but practicing a lot. The more you practice, the more you translate, the more you understand the process well and you can also apply all those theoretical aspects you're reading, you're studying and you can apply to an example and the ideal of your translation and you connect the dots there. Okay, so these are all very useful and tips for students who are thinking of preparing themselves for getting certified with ABT PROB.


The Senate finally agrees for INEC to transmit elections electronically. The upper chamber also approved direct primaries for political parties and a move which the People's Democratic Party described as retrogressive. Anacoste, Secretary of the Southwest Agenda for Asiwaju Swaga, speaks on the movement for bringing you a recorded version of it. Stay with us because this is PlusPolitik and I am Mary Anacoste. The Senate has passed a bill to rescind its decision which subjected the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, to seek approval from the Nigerian Communications Commission before it could transmit elections result electronically. Now the Senate also voted in support of the conduct of party primaries only by direct method. Meanwhile, the People's Democratic Party PDP has described the approval of direct primaries for all political parties by the Senate as retrogressive. Joining us to break this down is journalist Carl Cinedu. We also have political analyst Achike Chude and Nick Agoulet. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you very much. All right. I'll start with you, Mr. Chude. Let's look at the issue of direct primaries. It's been brought up before while the Senate was still mauling over the Electoral Act bill before it becomes law. Many kicked against it and many applauded it as a way of deepening democracy. But what are your thoughts? My thoughts are, what thoughts are found at the Senate in regard to the... ...to direct primaries? With the approval for electronic... No, for direct primaries. For direct primaries. Okay. Well, I mean, there are different course of thoughts. Some of the members of the other political parties are of the view that the Senate... ...that the political parties should be allowed to choose the kind of primaries, you know, that they are comfortable with. You know, so it's not something that has been received with mixed results. But beyond that, I think, look, even within the kind of primaries that it's decided upon, I think to a very large extent, I would say that for as long as... I mean, the political parties are spending independence and that they're in a position to meet... ...the rules for themselves on how they want to go about doing... ...about their activities and the political parties.  But regardless of that, no matter the system that is given, even within the context of that system that is chosen... ...you know, they can always go out of their way to ensure that there is free exercise... ...of the democratic franchise within taking the parties. Of course, you know that internal party issues have been the brain of most of the political parties. I've seen the advent of democracy from 1990s to 1990s. Most of the parties have been accused of not having internal democratic party mechanisms. And so even if that decision has been taken on their behalf by the Senate, they can still go ahead... ...regardless of that and see and ensure that their primaries are born in a way that is free... ...and developed of Franco and of Penet. I do not think it is so much of a big deal. Interesting.  A lot of people, like... ...I've spoken about this with some people, especially members of the PDP, who seem to be kicking against it... ...say that every party does have a constitution that the members of the party abide by... ...and they're saying they have a choice to decide if they want to have direct primaries... ...or they want to have consensus candidates. I mean, even the APC, I think one of the members, former councillors or chairman here in Lagos... ...if I'm not mistaken, has asked that the party allow for consensus candidates in some of the primaries... ...which is something that most political parties have the right to do. So if the PDP seems to be not okay with this... ...why do you think that the Senate is pushing this down the throats of the political parties? Let's not forget that the Senate is also, of course, a field of members... ...who are caught across the APC and the PDP, who have different styles of primaries. I think that I'm not interested in other parties in this election. Parties are just now. Carl, it's very difficult to hear you. I don't know what the problem is. I think we're having connection issues. But I'll throw the question to Mr. Agoule, who's just joining us. Let's see if we can fix Carl's line. Mr. Agoule, the PDP is saying that this is not in any way deepening the democracy in the country... ...and, of course, internal party democracies. They think that this is retrogressive for the democratic process that they are pointing to... ...since 1999 until now. They do not understand why the National Assembly is choosing to toll this line. What are your thoughts? Mr. Agoule, can you hear me? I think we're also having connection issues with Agoule. Let's move on to other issues. Now, let's talk about the transmission of results. This has been an issue, and this is for you, Achike, because you seem to be the only one who's on. This is an issue that you and I have spoken about. Many have kicked against and wondered why it's taken the National Assembly so long to make a decision on it. But now they've given it a nod. Most will say they're about to pressure. Now, going forward, do we see that this is going to maybe first things first happen during their number of elections? Is that going to be a litmus test of sorts? Can we rely on it and say that, as a matter of fact, our elections can at least start to be free for incredible? Okay, Mr. Agoule, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Go ahead. Yeah, I didn't know that was for me. It was for you. You're the only one. Look, Nigerians had made up their minds before their hopes were dashed by the same age about what was their first time with regard to INEC, when it comes to what happened after the voting takes place. A lot of Nigerians resolved unanimously that both should be transmitted. And that view point was made especially against the backdrop of the election that took place in those days. Of course, we had something similar to the transition of the electronic results, which is a big part during that election. And it was highly, highly successful. So a lot of people have looked forward to Nigeria advancing electoral practices by improving what you already have on ground. That was what was expected. And so, and a lot of organizations, such as people such organizations, the media and so many others, who put in this country had worked too much, you know, and don't so much work in propagating use of transition of electronics, but the results electronically after the election. So it was a very root shock for Nigerians. And this is given, again, with the recommendation of the House of Representatives, that let the transition of results, at least at the doorstep of INEC. So when it got to the Senate, because they completely disbanded, they rejected it entirely. And now let it at the doorstep of the National Nigerian Telecommunications Commission. They're still in liberal exchange. This is not an electoral body. You know, and INEC has said that they're in a position that they had the technology, you know, to run to transmit the election. And that the network providers, you know, where INEC has already assured them that they had the capacity, you know, to help INEC transmit this result electronically. So it was a very big shock when the Senate, you know, gave that responsibility to the body that had nothing to do with the election in this country. The Nigerian Telecommunications Commission, you know, that was a shock. And Nigerians did not find it very poorly at all. You know, so the backlash, I think that's what the Senate has done. I mean, it's a good thing they have, you know, what they have done. And it seems that they're thinking the way they have responded positively to the yenings of Nigeria, because Nigerians were very coordinated of their actions at that particular point in time. And they have shown that somehow that they have the capacity to appeal the force of the people. And so it's the right thing to do. INEC has said that they are in a position to transmit this result successfully. And I believe that they can do it. So moving forward, moving forward from that, the ball seems to be now being the court of political parties and their members to canvass for votes, because I'm guessing that this now means that it's not going to be business as usual. And so there has to be a lot more work done by political parties, because one way or the other, this might eliminate the vote buying or the ridiculousness of votes changing before the results get to INEC. So what do you think is ahead of political parties and their members, especially as we look to Enambra as the first litmus test after the National Assembly has given it a nod? I didn't get all you say, but I think I got matches of what you were talking about. So INEC finds itself in the unique position of testing their capacity with the Enambra election. That is their capacity to transmit the results. A lot of people will be watching them closely. But of course, INEC already has its job cut out for it, because of the crisis and the insecurity in Enambra and the circumstances surrounding the election. But of course, there are so many other good things about the electronic voting. I think it ensures a very large extent, a better transparency in the electoral process. At the same time, it makes it difficult for Tom to play the title role that they have always played in the election. Because what it means is that once an election has been successfully conducted, immediately it transmits this result electronically. And once that is done, there is nothing that, you know, Tom or Mr. Ant can do. They can take away the ballot boxes with all the capacity inside. It takes just nothing, because the results have already gone somewhere. And so it also means that perhaps the politicians will save less money on some of these talks that they keep on employing. And of course, life will be much cheaper. Because to be less risky, for people to be involved in elections only to have themselves being attacked by some of these party-star wars or talks. Alright, let me see if we can get Carl back on the line. Carl, can you hear me? Unfortunately, Carl can't hear me. Mr. Juley, can you hear me? Yes, I can't go, I'm struggling to, but I can hear you. Okay, Mr. Juley, this question goes to you. Many have criticized the electoral process in Nigeria as that which is more of money than, you know, selling the candidates for who he is and what his capabilities are. So now that we have this nod for the electronic transfer, transmitting of results starting from Anambra, which is the closest elections that we're going to have, just like I asked at Chikitrude, is this going to increase the capacity of money politics or is it going to shrink it? Are we now going to see political parties canvassing for their candidates more other than the normal sharing of monies and sudden food materials just to help get votes? What do you see happening? Yeah, so regardless of the approval for the transmission of the results, it has nothing to do with how much politicians spend during the electoral process. And the reality is that there is a failure on all sides, especially on the part of INET, you know, to speak to the rules that it has put in place. Yeah, so many, you know, punishments of time for candidates who spend far beyond the provisions of the law. I'm sure we know that for every category of office that is being protested for that there are certain sources of money that are attached to that office in terms of the obligations of politicians to spend money. They are not supposed to create those amounts of money. But we know that this is just that it is being observed in the bridge. INET has not lacked the political will to actually do anything about that. But INET is an electoral body, they're an empire, they're not a law enforcement agency. And this is the case they always make. They can do certain things, but I mean it stops somewhere. This is where law enforcement comes in. I have covered elections where I see policemen in the midst of people sharing money and they take their share. What can an INET official do in that instance? There are certain responsibilities that INET has. INET has jurisdiction over the polling, which over the election generally. So any mass practice and what the police do with the security forces is to lend a helping hand to ensure that INET's responsibilities are carried out without any threats to public peace and harmony. So INET still has some responsibilities. It's like people who are committing electoral offenses. It falls within the ambit of INET. But what INET does really is that in collaboration with the police, the law enforcement officers also have the responsibility to ensure that people who are contracting the electoral law are arrested. INET is not in the position to arrest, but INET can do something to get in some of these people arrested and being handed over to the police for prosecution. That's what they are supposed to do. In fact, after the election in 2019, a lot of civil society organizations including the civil society organizations are belong to the Nigerian situation. They have to put pressure on INET. With regards to all of the people who have promised they are going to be prosecuted for various acts of conservation of electoral law. And so they have to put pressure on them. They themselves are also trying to put pressure on the police authorities so that they are able to be prosecuted successfully. So they have the responsibility to ensure that the money that have been earmarked to the extent that the politicians have not exceeded within their responsibility. After all, it's also within their responsibility to monitor political parties and ensure that in terms of accountability by these political parties, in terms of political party financing and auditing outside the reference of political parties, it is the responsibility also of INET. Great. Let me talk about educating the populace because I know that that responsibility is also that of INET. They have voter education and a voter education department under INET. Then people also talk about the national orientation agency and other bodies who take on the responsibility of educating the populace. Now, we're all very excited. We have been speaking about the Senate and the National Assembly allowing for this to go through. But on the other hand of direct primaries, how does that even affect the average Nigerian, especially now that we're asking that Nigerians get involved in partisan politics to be able to have a say? Can we still say that whoever a party throws up, whether it be through direct primaries or consensus candidates, that these people really reflect the will of the people? Well, the issue is when elections come and go, there are victors and there are losers. So if you say it is a general belief that the people have exercised their franchise. Yes, I know that in the list of widespread activations of rigging for instance or manipulation of votes and all that, you might not exactly say that which has been a reflection of the will of the people. But I think it also starts with the turnout of voters. How many people actually come out to vote during the election? Anand Brasit, an election is going to be placed in Anand Brasit. Now regardless of the threat by either high power or whichever group is making threats in an election in Anand Brasit, the reality is that Anand Brasit has always had about the lowest turnout of voters in elections. And why do you think that is? Why do you think that there's such a level of voter apathy and it has been consistent over the years? Yes, that is down to a plethora of issues. First of all, I think the primary issue is that our people are not sufficiently educated and I think it talks about the education of the people. Yes. They are not sufficiently educated. A lot of our people are not exactly very well informed when it comes to politics. Many of them are not politically conscious and that in itself is a very dangerous situation because the people themselves, democracy is about the people. So if the people do not invest in democracy, then you'll find out that ultimately, they're going to be the ones carrying the short end of this thing. But beyond that, again, is the fact that the parties we have, and I'm talking about the two, are not especially political parties in the very sense of the word. I see them more at a group of associations of people who just come together for the purpose of taking political power. Do you think it's deliberate? Sorry to speak over you. Can you hear me? Sorry to talk over you. Do you think it's deliberate what the political parties are doing? Because I also know that some level of voter education needs to come from the political parties across the country. But do you think there's some deliberate move for these political parties not to educate voters, the people who they want to come out and vote, because it might serve their selfish interests? Because the people who make up these political parties, and I'm talking about the two, you know, dominant political parties, the people who make up these political parties in this way, you know, the big shots in these parties are not to put at that, are essentially expressed in the welfare of the regular mission.  Whether it is the PDP, you know, or the APC. Look at the state of the economy today. Look at this, it's not in the country. We have a political party, or we have political parties that have dominated the political state in this country, and we are supposed to provide good governance for the people. The good governance we have not seen. So that tells you that there is a clear failure. And part of it again is that, apart from the fact that the people themselves are not conscious enough to also understand their duty and their responsibility. Because the youths of the political parties educate their people, first of all, along ideological lines. Unfortunately, the political parties in this country do not have any serious, you know, reasonable ideological positions. You know? And so, and that's why during the political discourse, or during political debate, they do not talk about, you know, what exactly they are going to do for the people, how they are going to do this. They do not talk about how they are going to fund their economy around. They do not talk about how they would, you know, positively impact on the lives of the people.  How they are going to do it. And the timeline, what you need to get this is done.  And the people do not ask. And why do the people do not ask? Because the people are bright, you know, by the politicians, so vote for them, you know, and so the politicians, you know, obligation by the time they get to power, you know, to respond to the needs and enemies of the people because the people have, the people have already been saved from their targets. So this is, I mean, it's a situation one can discover between the devil and the deep blue sea. So we find out for ourselves in a very terrible situation and that's why there is nothing that is working for the country. Because we have a group of people that are not patriotic, that are not nationalistic, being, you know, in charge of the country. Okay. Let me go to Nick. Nick, I think that you are back. Let's talk about, let's just do a follow up on where Achike stopped. He's saying that our leaders, our politicians do not necessarily have the best interest of the Nigerian voter or the voting populace at heart. Hence the lack of voter education in the past of political parties and that, I mean, the bulk of the work is on INEC to do some of this voter education. We also have the NRA that we only see when it's close to election season. But for the Nigerian person there is a voice which is their vote. What should we be doing to empower ourselves so that when we're going to the polls, whether we be members of political parties or not, we know what to do as opposed to what we're made to do or what we're made to believe? Thank you very much. I'm very sorry for joining later. I have been battling with network here, almost everything in Nigeria is with tears. Before I answer your question I would just like to make my intervention on the two topics that you have for discussion today. The first one being electronic transmission of votes is a major development in our democracy. It is a very good thing that the senate has finally done by approving electronic transmission of votes. The only thing that will ask INEC to do is as they transmit their votes, polling unit by polling unit, they need to publish the results polling unit by polling unit because you see, Nigerians at the polling unit are able to see or hear the results at their polling unit. And there's something happens in between when the votes are collected. People lose track of what the polling unit results were when they are being aggregated. So INEC needs to be publishing those results, polling unit by polling unit, so that Nigerians will technically become election watchers. And people will be able to confirm that yes, at my polling unit, this was a result that was declared and it's on the board, the rest will just be addition. And also then for direct primaries, I also give kudos to the Senate for insisting on direct primaries because these political parties as my co-panelists have been saying, they don't have the interest on Nigerians at heart. They normally throw to us candidates that are not fit enough for office. But if they have internet democracy where there is direct primaries and the members are able to decide who their candidates will be, I'm sure we're going to have better candidates than the current system where the party leaders decide on who they are going to throw up as a party candidate. Now let me now then go to your question. The question is how do we mobilize Nigerians to bring them to the ballot boxes? The point is here I have been always advocating that the only way we can change this country, the only way we can change this country is the way the party leaders that we want. The only legitimate and viable way that is less violent is to come out and vote. And each time I say that I meet a lot of resistance from Nigerians. In fact, what I see is cynicism, pessimism and the fact that votes don't count. But can you blame the average Nigerian who feels that way being that most of them have their votes don't necessarily count? Even though staying back at home also means that you've made a decision, it's a vote in one way or the other. So what can you blame the average person who's pushing back when you say come out and vote? Can you blame them? So here like you rarely say we have two decisions to make. We have a decision to sit at home and not step out. But the result of that decision is that nothing is going to change. In fact, things might even get worse. And then the other decision is to step out and vote at least do your own civic duty by voting. And then let us see what happens. In this country we have seen cases where votes have counted. There are many instances where votes have always counted. And if votes were not to count why would politicians be buying them? Politicians buy votes because they know the votes are counting. So it is a bit of a fallacy when Nigerians say that votes don't count. Sometimes it is when the result is not as clear that people are able to manipulate it. The result is so clear as in Nigeria's trooper because you see the problem is that the people who come out now to vote majority of them are those that will go and say their votes for cheap. The people who will not take 500 naira or 1000 naira to say their votes. They are the ones sitting at home. The educated class way to do, they are sitting at home. These are the people that need to come out. If they come out and overwhelm the process then we are going to carry the day. The truth of the matter is that voting is going to change in this country until we come out and start voting candidates based on their own individual competencies and competencies. We shouldn't be voting on party lines or where a candidate comes from. And the only people who can take those decisions are those people who are sitting at home right now. They need to come out. And there is another block. There is another block that can actually influence election results in this country that have not been allowed to vote and not belong to that block. And that is the block of the diaspora. Nigeria is in the diaspora not been allowed to have a say in who governs this country. Have we grown to that level where we can even allow diaspora vote? If we've not been able to master voting within, should we not be able to get that right first before we start the diaspora voting? I'm not in any way kicking that but I'm just saying, if we haven't mastered even the internal voting systems is it okay to open the door to diaspora voting? I'm not sure what you mean but we have not mastered the internal voting system. I think we have these democracies have had six elections, six elections already and those elections have run, the results have been declared. And how has it been better than before or worse than the previous ones? That's how we check it. The point here is that the elections for the majority of the time, the elections have pockets on issues here and there. But at the end of the day the results are declared and people are thrown into office. So whatever the process is, let the process also be applicable to the diasporas. Let us also have our own ballot and I can assure you that if ballot boxes are placed in Nigeria high commissions and embassies abroad and elections are conducted, those elections will be freer and fairer and more legitimate than what you will get here in Nigeria because most of these countries, like in the UK where I live I can't see how somebody will snatch a ballot box and be running away with. The Metropolitan Police will just grab you and then the diasporas are well informed, the diasporas are the people that will not accept any cover from anybody. They are going to vote based on the capabilities of these candidates and the diasporas can actually change the result of this election because look in the last presidential election the vote margin between the winner and the second place candidate was about a million or less and we have more than probably 20 million diasporas who if they have voted would have decided the election so that is an underblock that needs to come. So for the rest of Nigeria we just have to continue the education and you guys in the media you have a role to play civil societies have a role to play religious bodies have a role to play and community associations have a role to play we need to get people out to vote 30 million votes was what was cast in the last presidential election Mr. Agulay are you still there? We need to bring them to the ballot so that they can have a say in this democracy. Well I want to say thank you to Achike Chude, he is a political analyst Nick Agulay who is also a political analyst wants to say thank you to Kyle Chinedu who's network was really bad his connection did not let us hear what he had to contribute but thank you all gentlemen for being part of this conversation we appreciate it thank you for braving the connection problem alright well thank you all for staying with us we will take a short break when we come back the secretary for the south west agenda for us see what you speak on the movement