Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. How's it going, buddy? Hello friends. It's just us tonight. This is two of us. We're keeping it simple Tonight Tyler's got the week off as per always as a quick reminder. We'll be alternating Between Tom and Tyler neither one of them can keep up with me and that's fine They're they are but mere mortals and so I have to we've organized this schedule for them That's nice. It's good for them. How you doing Tom? Doing pretty well. How about yourself? Good man. Good. I'm excited It's it's been a busy busy hobby time as we'll talk about when we get there But our main topic tonight is gonna be getting started in AOS you and I were talking we thought you know It's the new addition. We haven't really talked about all the armies and like what's actually good How do you actually start? We kind of spliced it out through a couple of the other shows But this will be a nice resource for people and for those of you who are well deep into the game Don't worry. We're gonna have lots of fun arguments later on about What armies are actually good to start with and what armies are not? So that's true. There's gonna be lots of fun stuff to sink our teeth into here But Reminder up top if you're excited about tonight's show don't forget to hit that like button and subscribe We're trying to I'm trying to push the number. There's a there's a milestone I'm looking forward to coming up in subscribers. I'm not gonna say anything See if people notice what it is at any rate. I'm excited about it And Vince Vince, I'm excited about it.  So Let's get to the news Tom. What's going on, buddy? What do we got? What's in the news? What are you reading that I wrote in there? That rumor engine. Yes. This is now. This is all right. I'm gonna show. I'm so excited. I'm so excited hit me Drown me in your excitement Tom. It's Wraith Lee. Okay. Okay. Um, so here's the deal I'm ready. It looks like the bow of a ship. It does It does but but where the waterline is it's not so it's like it's flying. Yep The front like figurehead looks like it's a rib cage, you know, like death. Yeah, sure and And the like prowl blade Has the design patterns that Lady Olander has on her model Okay, the you're talking about this this design stuff right here this little Yes, but the briars. Yes, the little swirly briars. Yes. So basically Let me just make sure that I understand what we're saying. Yeah. Yeah, okay So we've given up on Vampirates. We didn't get our wish but now It's Ghost Pirates. That's what we're here now. That's what we're saying, right? It's Ghost Pirates It's Ghost Pirates. Okay. I mean like yeah, I mean, yeah, right like that. That's that that's where Night Haunt's going Ghost Pirates confirmed Absolutely There it is. I see no issue I see I see nothing else that could be it could be zero other things.  They're gonna get their expansion models Which will be ghost fleet. Yes, I agree. Uh, yeah, I mean because here's the deal like what I see them doing here Is they are reimagining like our coven throne as like Ghosty rap ships like I think that's where we're going. No, I'm on board Tom I'm a thousand percent on board with this. I agree with Josh a who said ghost ship still not a hero It won't be just a totem It should be a totem Yeah, I Make me cry How in the war scroll update did that thing not gain the hero keyword it got totem. Yes, that's I know And you like it that's what they're saying the same it should be able to take items. That's all I'm saying, okay But I'll take it because I still run my black coach in every list that I built sure so It's fine It's fine. It's all fine. Um, so that's the rumor engine. It's ghost pirates folks strap in It's fan pirates with a twist. Oh, it's all over back. We're back where we were the end of last year a year has passed But so little has changed in the world Sadly and now we've left behind I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to make new merch. That's just as ghost pirates Yes, all right ghost pirates. Yep All right, our Let's talk about a hero deep. Yeah, man. I should have grabbed this map.  I apologize everyone I they they put up a map for Olga where hero deep is in the center the new place Which is underwater for the new setting right for Underworlds and it was really cool and by the way Would be a perfect setting for a ghost fleet. I'm just saying Like it's full of spooky oceans and creepy coasts and mist mist covered oceans. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, checks out checks out Um, I mean, it's like I don't expect to find ghost pirates. So here's the other Possibility that I don't want to actually articulate. Okay, but maybe very real Which is this is one of the objective markers Sure, sure, we're just like a sunken boat like the prowl of a sunken boat sure in the stupid Hero deep. Yeah Yep That's probably what it is, but I'm gonna It's goes fire. No, we're gonna this is the time for positivity Tom. We're staying positive Yeah, I mean the the map was super cool I loved it glad to see a lot of you know It's cool how they sort of spiced little interesting things around the map for you to find like little Skaven claneshen mentions all over the place hidden throughout Yeah, just lots of fun stuff, you know Oogoo and high you should continue to be two of the realms that we have sort of the least understanding of I mean how you should we have a pretty clear picture like it's the chaos symbol, but we definitely don't know and Yeah, at a deeper level, there's just not as many like maps and stuff like that, you know when you look at at Sort of the main realms the story has been set in You know oxhi and gairan and gur in places like that. We've got lots of maps and details lots of different Books You know have information background and stuff because stories have been set there Right and you know, even like the soulbound books added a ton of detail to those realms If you're a fan of soulbound the RPG from cubicle 7, which I would highly recommend for everybody by the way And you know, but that that gave us a lot of background. We haven't really seen much about Oogoo. I'm excited If we're going into shadow Season which I hope so I hope this is setting up sort of the move For next year. Yeah. Yeah, exactly like I would love to see the underworld season Lead into the change over next year to give us Malarian To give us redone scavin lead like the the part of scavin that needs redone Arguably the most is that shit is actually yeah, because they're the original monkey face rats from the 90s Not that there isn't plenty of other stuff that needs to be redone I mean somebody in the comments is already like Furiously furiously typing very at the various scryer units or whatever that they want to see redone because they're $15 individual metal models But you know, there'd be a lot of cool stuff we could explore there both old and new is my point Yeah, right. Yeah, and we'll go would be a super cool season So I dream of the day if we get a full scavin relaunch. So Let's hope that's what this means I Will say that I'm sure smorgan is gonna be happy about the idea of redoing all of the super ninja rats after he's painted like 180 Nightrunners, so I just don't even have a response to that. Yeah, he's he's in it to win it with the classic With the classic monkey rats bull move So um Yeah, and then the other rumor engine that we are the other rumor there the other news item rather that we had was Seraphon seraphon battle tone up date next white dwarf Um So we're updating battle tomes and white dwarfs now apparently I many times. Yes. This is the third one. So we had our our Giants got their battalions and stuff slaves to darkness got their stuff and now it's seraphon's turn And I think that what this tells you is don't expect a book anytime soon Which of course I wouldn't be none of those three would have been in my votes for getting books anytime soon They they specifically called out that like a replacement a Replacement allegiance ability for primeval domain. Okay. Yeah, because the terrain really needed to be updated Like I play this army sometimes and you know I own and play this army and I literally couldn't remember exactly what primeval domain did because I cared that it's that Irrelevant to the overall army like I just I love the way their brain works That they thought anybody gave a flying crap about that ability I mean, okay, it's shocking. It's shocking. So You know like I just I uh, but that's fine. Whatever You know need enough I guess sure bring it in line, you know What you need to do with seraphon is probably make some other changes, but that's okay Um So yep, cool good, they'll get there they'll get there completely They're completely incorrect grand strategies battle tomes and core battalions and I stand behind the fact that every TO should ban army specific versions of basically at least grand strategies and battle tactics And use only the ones out of the GHB I stand behind that we should not allow any of this nonsense in You feel very strongly about it. That's fine. You're allowed to I stand at the hot gates my friend. I know What I see the tide coming but I will make this a movement It's irrelevant inappropriate and unbalancing and unfun to add these sorts of things and they shouldn't be there And they make the game actively worse TO's of the world. Don't let them at their at your events. There you go That's I'm making them put my foot down. I'm making a call Vince feels very passionately about this the argument for those that want to actually know the foundational logic for that is that they just add nothing to the game like the thing that unbalanced all the factions previously was battalions and Functionally, they're back ending the same type of unbalancing aspect back into the game through this type of thing And so where they leveled the field going into 3.0. They're very quickly just Making the same mistakes they made so that's Vince's logic. Yes Whether you agree with him or not, that's another that you know, that's another discussion Yeah, I mean you can you can agree with me or be wrong. It's your choice. I don't care You can do whichever one you want. It's fine.  There's a lot of countries. Okay, so I Had another news item that's not on here Uh, there well, I have one as well, but go ahead. What's your other news item? So I heard some birdies talking And That we have another AOS campaign coming next summer, which is not too surprising. Sure But that it is gonna focus on Malarian Okay, and our dwarves may be involved in In the mythical like group dwarf book that has been that we've long kind of like suspected this coming and That chaos dwarves may be involved as well. Hey, oh, there we go So it's take that as you will it's pretty locked in that we're going to get Chaos dwarves at some point or whatever. We'll call them in their reformed state between The hob grots making direct reference to them them showing up in things like wrath of the ever-chosen as a as a feature of the overall story and then them just continuing all of the Forge world stuff like It's only a matter of time before we get a full relaunch as I said last week So, yeah, I it'll be great to see all those things in plastic and what that means for the new world So and like, yeah, no, I agree Is That's your news That is my new side. That's your rumor. Okay. Cool. That's my rumor. I like that rumor Let's see what happens. I hope we I think they'll do the combined warpy thing, too And I and if it's done, right, it should be like or a four clans Where they keep their individuality and you can rerun them as individual armies, but then also there's a Whatever the big walk equivalent is for dwarves. I don't know the big grudge, I guess Something like that. It's it's the grudge host the grudge. Sure. There you go Okay, my item is hey for those of you out there who are fans of Rain and Hell the game that uncle Adam and I launched This week we launched our solo expansion So if it can be played solo or co-op it is a narrative campaign you can play through It's six interlinked missions that tell a story an ongoing story in the world in Rain and Hell You can play through it as I said alone or with one of your friends as a cooperative partner And it is available right now through the link that's down in the description as well as Through Rain and Hell the game comm you can find the link there all the information for it It is it is pay what you want So that can include zero dollars. This suggested is like four dollars But this has been a rough year If you don't want to pay any money for it But you want to have a fun game if you're not having people around for Rain and Hell But you want to get your cabal on the table. Hey, I totally understand Go grab it now. So it's out there. Go check it out. Link is in the description We're really excited about it. It's uh, it was a lot of fun to actually write the sort of solo Campaign and to I will say even when I was play testing it and playing through it I was having a lot of uh, I was honestly having a lot of fun playing through the thing that I wrote Which is silly because I knew where it was going But hey, there you go So yeah, check it out links in the description. All right uh Okay, so with that let's uh, let's go To our pick of the week and I'm going I need to switch my thing over here. So I can actually see the time stamp There we go. All right So time stamped pick Oh the week tom. What's your pick of the week? Yeah, so I think I've mentioned this uh, uh channel on youtube at some point in the past It's been a while though. So I want to draw people's attention to it. Um, it's ebay miniature rescues Um, it is a wonderful kind of Uh, you know guy gets on and talks about buying junk on ebay and and you know Turning it back into something functional for the For for this and he recently did a video Called uh speed painting in an ebay trash army that I appreciated and so I would encourage you to check it out Nice. Uh, yeah, great channel. Uh, and Super nice guy as well Uh, fantastic My pick of the week well first off. I want to shout out to uh, to a meal to squid mar who sold his Classic thunder hawk for 35,000 dollars on ebay. So good on him Uh, a store in australia is actually who bought that by the way They bought that and two others of the 500 because there's only 500 of these made at the time And uh, so they now own three of them that that single store. I mean that's a bold move. That's a bold move Yeah, so, uh, very cool stuff.  What about all the cool things the lore of the orcs? Well, then you can head on over to our good friend two plus tough because dug is doing a whole lore series On the orc war clans this week. He's put up a couple videos already Uh, and so he talks about iron jaws and cruel boys and all of that stuff Um, I'll link the most recent video, but he's done multiple videos this week about it So get in to that. Wah get into the lore and uh, and we'll it's a it's a super great series Doug always knocks these things out of the park when he uh, when you know, sort of these battle tone lore stuff So if you want to can't get enough hot green orc action Then Doug has you covered all right Uh, let's see Okay, sorry. I was over just need to look at the comments Uh, yes, the name of the expansion by the way for rain and hell is called the oculus spear I should have said that but I didn't so that's the name of the solo expansion the oculus spear Uh, let's see. Will we ever have a printed version of the oculus spear? No, it will always it'll be pdf only I mean, but you can certainly go print it at kinkos or whatever Um, does that still exist? I don't know Uh And then uh, yes josh said steve tweeted this evening. There was one spot still open for havoc. That is Uh, possibly not true anymore. We'll see We were trying to get it filled before the show started. So I think we might have Uh, I hope so and and uh, a os list lab said that it's his local store That is the one that got the is it really rock? Yeah, how oh my gosh, that's amazing.  You put it on display. It's like a it's a discussion piece. It's a it's a memorabilia, you know at that point But $35,000 like that's a bit that's an expensive display piece Sure The the trick is he was the the purchaser was in australia Right, so and and you know, they're bidding over in Swedish what kronor or whatever. I don't I think that's right. Yeah, like not did's reduce. Yeah, right So honestly that amount of money Is more or less what you spend for an army in australia. Anyway, so it's not that far off They saw that and they're like, oh normal fortune prizes, right? Yeah, they were just it was basically a deal So they how could they say no? I know that that checks out that checks out. There you go Uh, okay Uh, david cratesburg tom does does developer equate to break the game before it's out guy. Yes. Yes, it is. That's what developers do All right, let's turn to some hobby time. I think he's he's asking me about rain and hell Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes, because you were the developer for rain and hell. Yes So if you find anything unbalanced or wrong, you can blame tom Uh There we go All right, let's do some hobby time uh tom What'd you work on this week buddy? If anything You worked on muppets you're working on your you're working on your settlers game. They don't know what this means Yeah, I know I I've I've done all this painting. Look at all that. You've done a lot of painting. Yes Yeah, you're getting your army ready for havoc in a month. Look at all that plastic That all all that plastic went together. Yeah Like I'm doing real work folks like real work And and I have to have like an army Done in like a month You do, uh, we have five weeks effectively a little more than yes Yep, and I have so if I have to complete 10 models a week Or or more In order for this to be acceptable sure Yeah, we're we're both under the gun for havoc. You've got 10 models a week. I have four models. I need to paint Finish that's beyond what I'm currently working on. That sounds like a joke Okay Right, but it's not but it's not because these models take forever Right and and you can't do your dragons I can't do dragons. So that's out right like it's right so So, let me tell the audience so like Vince calls. He's like, hey, we need to talk about havoc And he's like So dragons are out right it's not gonna happen Which is like but like the heart of his army, right? Like that's what he wanted to do with storm cast rats on dragons And so I'm like do I need to think of a new army in four weeks? No, no Like is that where we're going? No, because fortunately I had been painting my rat cast Like expecting that this was going to be a challenge. I had just been moving along Painting and so I have My hobby time has been I finished up something. I can't another thing. I can't share but that'll whatever that'll be for the future and then I hope everybody liked the fun auric war boss by the way That came out last weekend and then now I'm working on my lord relic tour Which is my which I converted out of the uh night Like the knight arcanum or something silly. I don't know whatever that new night was in there I didn't like it. So I made a no one will ever play Yeah, so I made a nice fun lord relic tour out of it You know because I wanted a lady relic tour like I have lots of female scaven storm cast and this is one of the female bodies I just have so many questions continue Uh, like does she have six never mind. No, no because it's you know, whatever it's Don't worry about it. Anyways, uh And so this is I have to get this done And then I have reforge and then I they're reforged correct And then I have four more figures beyond that but she's she's in a pretty good place. Um, like I only have maybe another four or five hours on her probably Um, but yeah, we had we had we had like tom and I had to have an emergency hobby meeting about this because like seriously The thought of me getting these four figures done is actually tough and I have to then we I was like we still have to do bases for all of them Which we had to get together and find bases And then the question of the board and then the board.  Uh, we'll we'll we'll we'll get there. We'll get there Uh, so we're gonna try to pull this together not making any promises, but we're gonna try to pull it together Yeah, oh, I gotta paint my warlord too. Yes, you do You probably don't want to Uh Oops, you probably don't want to not show up with that. It's kind of important I know but I just I forgot like I was all excited making progress on all this And I was like trying to think the order that I need to get things done And then I realized that I actually have the warlord and the way that I've modeled it is Gonna make it take a lot of time Hmm. That's unfortunate. It's fine. It's time to get in and do work. Uh, but that's that's what we do Yes, as as Jsephry said do work son. I agree do work son. That's what we're here for never stop working um All right So but we we did we did get together and sketch out the board I'm gonna head to the hardware store pick everything up I need and Tom and I have a company set aside to do to get together and do a board build so And all the printers of folks we know are a whirling Just just 3d printers going burr all around the world for everybody. We get hit up for favors.  He had the fox on a point And he didn't want to give it up.  Okay Well With hobby time done tom. Let's we're moving fast tonight. And that's fine. Let's uh, let's get into it This is a classic show. We're gonna get done In an hour and a half or two hours. There you go. Let's get into it getting started Uh with aos 3.0. I need to adjust this of just a tad. Sorry. There we go Moved a little there we are. All right So, uh I personally think and i'm keen for your opinion tom but I think this is a great like these edition changes and especially right now is actually I think a really strong time To start like now is the time to get into aos if you're new to aos You've heard about it. You're checking us out for the first time. Here's the deal Now is the time to get into the game Yeah, because everything's still sorting out tons of different armies are available fairly cheap both in the prior edition In those starters as well as the new starters that are dropping Just saying it's uh now is the time folks We're already seeing a lot of different armies being competitively viable across the board being able to push for four ones You know going 5.0 is still largely skill dependent as like jp stats have shown But you can push for four one with a lot of different armies, which is fantastic um, we're seeing the new books and they seem to be trending into a Honestly pretty friendly direction for newer players. So yes, the base game got a little more complicated, but Uh The army books themselves to me read a lot more new player friendly a lot more It's felt like they were removing a lot of the bad Uh the bad design of memory interactions where so like Bad mental baggage game design is when something says like Do a thing trigger do a thing Time passes thing pays off Right, okay, right Like do this in your hero phase and during battle shock this happens. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, there's yes exactly, right? And they're they're really cutting a lot of that um And I I really feel that like this is a very strong time to start like if you were getting into stormcast I think this is good. I think that there's you know, but that being said There is still there is still more complexity. So we're going to break into like where do we start? What do you cut that kind of stuff? Okay So if you have a new player that you're wanting to introduce to the game This show might be a good place for them to start. Mm-hmm All right, so let's get into it Let's start with just some basic stuff what you need to know about 3.0. Most of you will probably already know this But that's okay Core rules still free available for download. You can also buy a book, but they're still free It's about 30 pages now. There is more to it Yeah, you know, like I'm not gonna lie and say it's as simple as it used to be But it is also pretty clear But we're gonna talk in a moment about like I said, I think when you're starting the right answer is You don't try to play the full like match play thing I think you cut stuff or you get in through things like path to glory, but we'll we'll get there. We'll get there Oftentimes when I play with my kids, it's just war scrolls Like we focus on just getting the war scrolls, right?  That's exactly right Uh, war scrolls are still free in the app. I have for now Right, right. We don't know what's gonna happen, but like they are free right now I don't know like this is the world we live in at the moment I can only report on the news as it in the facts as they currently exist indeed uh and like I hope this always remains true This I am putting this out into the world because I want this to always remain true. This should never change Uh, eventually some part of the app probably the army builder will become pay. They've been pretty clear about that But it seems like they're saying the war scrolls will remain Uh free and I hope so. We'll see totally Um, if not, they will remain free because people will just start sharing them everywhere. So it's it's like you can either You can either be the hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain gw you make the call Uh All right, so Books you need here's here's my books. It's this simple tom. What books do you actually need? My argument would be general's handbook. It's a good tool Great deal of quality scenarios good stuff multiple play types covered in there and all sorts of like the endless spells are in there You know it's good stuff Yep, and then your army book Yeah, I agree. I agree like so what's missing here obviously is the core rulebook, which just isn't needed Yeah, if you have the general's handbook, yeah, go ahead.  I'll talk about it a little or sorry the core rulebook later Because I do think there's value to it.  It's it's a it's a love. It's honestly a luxury item, right? And then as I have a note here and we'll talk about this in a little while as well Each book it's an FAQ. I put four weeks After the book release Well That's the goal We'll see oftentimes four weeks Yes, sometimes We'll we'll see Okay, um Now complexity Let's just meet this head on This is the most complicated edition so far the rules are about 30 pages our historical trend was four four pages and then 12 and now 30 Okay That's where we're at ish. It's like 30 but like I'm there's big art pieces and stuff in it Whatever whatever it's about 30 pages Yep The battle tomes are simpler. They seem to be trending simpler. We only have two examples. So who knows that could be complete that could just be complete Audities we won't know that in the long run, but it could just be skewing starter armies, right? Because these are the starter armies and so the starter armies could be simpler And they could just keep the complexity on a lot of the other armies We don't know but it looks like the trend is towards simpler armies I agree And and I hope that remains true And You know, I I think that the even though it's 30 pages. It's pretty clear We'll talk about some other resources later on you can use to to help navigate this complexity Like I have a cheat sheet that I use that I use with my friends who are My group is full of very casual people. They just we follow the cheat sheet down the thing No drama llama. It's super easy. Everybody just goes. Here's my thing. Don't need to rally Here's my coming like I get my command point. Here's my hero action. I'm doing what are you doing? Okay, great. I picked my bag. I stole one of those for Ashkahn. Yeah Like I just took your sheet took it to Ashkahn and I was like I sat there at table and I was like step one this step do this Yeah, because it's so easy And it's it's just you like and there are some other ones available out there I I threw that one out there the one that I made a little while back um but the But there are definitely Ways you can simplify out that complexity right. Yep Ken else says can I get my army's handbook for free or do I have to purchase it? So your army battle tome you have to purchase And you you basically have to buy the physical version of it. They don't sell digital versions of it. Why I don't know It's a good question. It's silly You do get the digital version in the app then free when you buy your physical one But whatever now now pause on everything. I just said ken Because if you're playing an older army that has not yet gotten a new book Yep, then at the moment ken the actual answer is no Okay Here's what I mean by that ken. I'm sorry. This is kind of confusing But we're in the middle of this changeover the new storm cast and auric books you have to buy the book So if you're interested in either those two armies, you got to go pick up the book All the old armies that haven't gotten a new book yet. They're in the app And everything is in there. It's all free at the moment again. I don't know. Will it always be I can't answer Those questions. I have no visibility into that But at the moment you can just pop open the app and go Oh, I want to I want to see about soul blight gravelords and like you can go straight to death battle tome Soul blight gravelords. There they are. Let me look at their command traits. Yep. Okay, cool. That's what all that does Got it. There's my choices and all of the rules are there period So for everything that's not Uh that hasn't had a new book in 3.0, which is everything except storm cast and oryx Yes, technically all the rules are free For now for now Yeah, right Okay, I suspect that once the digital subscription stuff fully kicks in for aos All of that will be in in as part of the subscription Yeah, it's hard to say the worst rules might be the only thing that ends up like we just But we don't know that Yep, so, uh, oh chapstick said yeah, it's a good point. Also battle scribe does have the faction rules in there too That's a great. It's a great point. Yeah. I don't mention that in digital tools, but it is a good reference point Okay So there we go. That's that's kind of the books. That's just some basics just to get that out of the way Right lay down them basics Uh, all right So how do we actually start so my answer is there's a couple different Versions right a couple different versions of how we start because again, we have the complexity problem I just left that on the bottom to remind us of the challenge here Right to me there are two options for how you get in Okay Yep Option one is you cut rules like you mentioned with your kids, right where you just play with worse. Yeah So don't feel like you have to start at 2000 points just because everybody else is doing it You can cut out things like grand strategies battle tactics battalions all that stuff can be cut right It doesn't have to be there Like you you don't need that to play the game the game is functional without those elements. It's fine Basically, you can feel free to cut anything you like as you're learning There's no need to have anything you and your group don't like right So if you don't want the heroic actions the monster's actions and stuff like that fine cut them, you know Like it doesn't matter, but at minimum when we're like when I showed my Group 3.0 the first game we didn't use grand strategies. We didn't use battle tactics. We didn't use any battalions I just had them build a quick army Use their allegiance abilities like normal and play now. They had already played games before right?  Yep, and you can you can build into the rules That's option. You play a game or two with that and then you Add in Strategems or brands army strategies or whatever and you can just slowly kind of pile layer the layers on Yeah, yeah The other good option is path to glory Um, I think path to glory is an excellent entrance point. It is a very different sort of can you say that Can you say that louder into the mic, please? I think path to glory is an excellent entrance point And I think a lot of people really love path to glory so much So we're going to do a whole show on it next week or two weeks. That's right something like two. That's right Vince the one who has cursed path the glory for the last five years stop hitting the table Sorry will now Uh, you know he's a seller. So we'll see I again. I've never cursed path to glory's existence I've cursed path to glory's placement, which I see I don't want it in the middle of my maddened play rules Like it should be in its own section. That's all I've ever said and I stand behind that. Okay, but yeah in two weeks We're going to do a whole path to glory show Tom and I will be back. We're bringing on a path to glory expert to take us into the world Um, but it's a great way to start because you really end up needing not that much You know it ends up being a couple hundred points basically is how you're starting out in path to glory And then you just kind of get to experience a fun narrative evolution of your force add to your force pretty organically Uh, it's it's much more Friendly to new painting because you don't have to just be like buried in plastic and then try to paint your way out Out from under this mountain Right, right. You just do in a couple units and then every so often you add another unit Great easy Um Mr. Yes meatball says gw's own information could really do with a well circulated primer like play with scrolls Then add battalions then add battle tactics completely agree. I completely agree. You know, they had something like that. They kind of Shipped out in second ed at one point when we talked about this in 2.0 and I completely agree that they should have this sort of like On ramp starter track pdf that they just published that's linked on the side of their website in the same area where they're like How to take photographs of integers is right? They they they have like a resources section on the side They could also just have it under downloads. I think put in multiple places and they You know, they should just have a like here's what we would here's how we would recommend you get started There you go. Yeah okay It would make the world so much easier for people to actually buy their products and play their game because there is a barrier of entry here Like let's not kid ourselves right um All right. Oh sporadic has asked an interesting question there How would you approach a situation with someone who has played before but absolutely hates the double turn because their insanely bad luck Has caused them to have only negative experiences I would not my yeah go you tell him first you go. I'm interested So here's my recommendation in that situation you teach them to always assume they are going to lose the double turn So you you teach them to play as if they're always going to lose the double turn And then when they don't Like if they do play that way All right, if they do play that way then they're fine Right because they're like they're not overextended If they don't and they win the double turn they can choose to give it away Right Or they can you know They can take advantage of the situation if they're forced to take the uh the alternating turn It's that's good piece of advice. I like that. Um, and ie teach them how you account for it Here's my advice. You're the experienced player in this case. It's sporadic.  Yeah, you can always hand it Right like if you win the role you just give it back to them correct and let them keep double turning you correct Yeah, and know that you're gonna play like that. You know because you're the experienced player and account for it in your play style and win Beat them and win with them continuing to have the double turn. Yeah, that's good Yep Okay Because you know, they're gonna take the double if they get it And so you just keep handing it back to them, right you give it to them and then win Yeah, and show that it's not like like it can be played around right it's a question of of skill Not that you have to account for and it's what makes the game You know, it's what keeps the game, uh Suspensive as it were So, you know that that would be my that would be how I do it Um, like I would give it to them every time and then you show them how how to handle being double turned that would be my solution Um, because I mean, I think it's one of the great mechanics of this game. It's one of the things that makes the whole engine run So right right agreed. Yep Uh, and so like Very good. He says he said he'll take that advice and run with it.  That's the choices like you can never result in your If you if one player approaches the table with that Conception it cannot have, you know, there's no other choice. You will never have a double turn You will never achieve a double turn. That's exactly right. Yeah, absolutely Um, and as time goes on you'll you'll learn to navigate it like I I don't ever really I don't I you know, I don't love it when my opponent wins the double, but I'm never it's never a lost moment for me. So I mean, but sometimes you have to gamble on the double. Sure. Yeah, sometimes you risk it for the biscuit. Yeah Yep Yeah Okay, purchases and resources. All right, let's talk about this. So books Purchase books I have here the core rulebook if you want Rules are free, but the background information and art is pretty cool So I'd call that not a need again. We're just talking about stuff that's out there options. Yeah, it's luxury. Yeah luxury, right core rulebook I think it's very pretty. I like owning it. It's definitely not a must-have purchase. Does that sound fair? Yep.  It has your scenario like a diversity of scenarios. It has Um, yeah, I mean, it's it is essential in my mind Yeah, I agree Uh, Chris Schuette by Schulte by the way said I run a small game club And one of the things I do is get two of the starting box sets dominion And two players play the same list and I referee the game I like that a lot if you've got a couple of people I love the idea of having a referee where you're kind of a neutral party walking them through there. That's a super cool idea Chris, that's great That is a super fun idea and that's being a real ambassador For the game, you know, like if you have a game you love bringing people through it in that way This isn't obviously this isn't where I'm specifically you do that for helping them learn how to play Yeah, it's great that way where you're just kind of standing back and you're not Involved and you're just like no, let me help you let me help you Okay, you guys go and then you can stand back and let them go. Yeah, that's cool Yeah, that's good And then I have your your army battle tone Okay Again as are previously mentioned they can the old ones are free in the app for right now The new ones you do have to purchase now tom Where do you place? Supplement books in this stuff the options because there are some supplement books that are different. So like the broken realms books Uh, it is the let's talk about, you know, maybe like wrath of the ever chosen that kind of stuff Is that is are those essential purchases or are those, you know, for who for me or for most people? Well, that's the question break that down majority of yeah for a majority of players They're just not essential unless they're touching your army, right Like I bought wrath of the ever chosen and left it on my shelf for like Months before I cracked it Just because it didn't it didn't touch any of the armies that I was using And I and I didn't have an event like coming up immediately That said like I buy everything Because we spend time on the show reviewing everything And so like I want to like I want to have it in front of me and and in general because I Go to competitive events like I follow the gi joe mantra of like knowing half the battle Yeah, the reality is is knowing is like 80 percent of the battle Um, you need to know what the like to be really competitive at the highest levels You just need to like knowledge is the key um, and so Like I buy all the books with all the rule stuff just so that I'm I can stay up to speed, but again, that's not most people Yeah, so the Those like talking about your club. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean in my group Most of the time everybody's pretty cash These people don't run out and get all of those books Okay, right they mostly just play out of their army book oftentimes Somebody in our group will just get one of the books. Usually that's someone is me And then I'll say hey, here's the thing if you want to check it out And I let them, you know, use it or borrow it, which is another good thing Like to me those kinds of expansion books can be a shared amongst a group thing if you even Have to have them because they often have information for multiple armies in there Uh, they're often not essential to your army. Like that is to say it's not as though everybody that has Something in one of those books you have to have it to build every list right And The but they can be fun. So to me their expansion purchases either buy your club your group your friends When you're ready for them Or There's something you eventually get yourself into when you're when you've got that you're you're when you got your legs under you with your army Because there's none of them that are really The essential that I can think of where it's like you have to have this stuff to really have everything Um, probably the closest one I can think of Where there's like some real value of what has to happen there No, I mean because they're both in the app now. I was gonna say maybe I decay or nergal But all those updated war scrolls got pushed to the app. So that's all that new stuff's in there for free Right, right, right Yeah, there's some like it's not that there's not any fun options in those that were night hot night hot night Because of the actual Well, that stuff's in the app too. The sub factions in the app too. Uh, well, are the broken realms? Are they? Yeah Yeah, they are Okay, that's I think The little those little things are all in the app right now. So it's it's hard to say that again They're on the edge. I don't think you absolutely have to have them, especially when you're starting It's not like right when you day one when you're starting the army. You have to have this thing Right, right. Yep. It's When you're especially when you're dealing with lots of new players Uh, you don't need those things and anybody who's taking like an absolute Backbreaker attorney list Uh against somebody who's new is a jerk Like right they they deserve to burn in a special place Yeah, like that's just not cool when when you're playing newer people you should be taking Fun lists and because they don't know what they're doing with their stuff right, right, so You know, that's it just doesn't make sense to me Like that's why they they shouldn't need it because your group should be accommodating to a new player Um So there you go Um, okay Uh But as I said, if you want to expand into them, they're not a bad purchase If they have something for your army in there, sure, they're fun And again, they're full of cool art and a good story Like if you want to learn what was happening in the story and the narrative and you're into that Uh, yeah, totally You know, then you're good Um, go grab them like it's fun there. I I liked them. I read them.  There's there are ways All right, let's talk about downloads and resources so digital places Sure. I think one of the important things is understanding the FAQ For armies and core rules, right like that you're going to have an FAQ document These things are not always pushed efficiently out there Uh, you know, that's off and stick it in your book. It's a problem. This is a problem Like there's no other way to say this right these these should be Updates that when they publish the FAQs, they should be digitally pushed out to a digital resource We're all using for rules.  I guess like that's that's what it is Because they don't generally push all of those updates out right should right they don't But the FAQs are out there on the website The war mra os app it's free right now true value advantage TBD right like again, this is such a giant question mark, but I don't know how else to talk about it Like I like it right now for using the war scrolls. I've used it a lot. I used it in my games It was fine perfectly serviceable Um, I looked stuff up. It was all there There we go Um, yeah the FAQs are in there Anthony he said the FAQs are in the app the problem is they don't they should just integrate everything in They don't they don't always change all the wording, especially not in a timely fashion. So great Okay All right resources there's some good resources out there there is yeah, so I mentioned here war scroll builder By our lord and savior tony p. It's on the main which is the site magical it is It's what I use to build every list I've ever built and it is updated now with the stormcast and uh oryx stuff Uh, so which is great war scroll builder makes building your armies easy fast fun There you go Uh Oh, good. Robert says they did update the scrolls with the FAQ wordings. Oh, that's cool. That's good I didn't know they pushed that through that's fantastic. Good. Okay. Good. Good stuff. I'm glad to hear that That makes me happy more of that. Yeah, absolutely Yay, then I take back that part that I said that's great. I hope that I'm I hope they keep doing that in a timely way There you go. Well, wonderful. That's very good. I take back what I said then I didn't know they had pushed that out That's very that's very good then I'm I'm happy to hear that And uh, aos reminders another great resource you can just put in your army upload your list directly from war scroll builder I would point out and it actually shows you Everything that you need to remember about your army like when to do what in each phase. It's great Uh Is war scroll builder the gw app? No, it's not the app war scroll builder is on the community site It's on the gw community site, right if you should go straight to the gw community site There is a thing that says like lists and army building tools up top click on that and right there it is war scroll builder It is super simple easy Fantastic like I cannot rep war scroll builder enough. It is a fantastic fantastic fantastic tool and it is very very very Quickly updated like amazingly quickly updated. So it's wonderful. It is a wonderful resource. Yes, tony p is a great human being He's the person who maintains it in the community. So He does a wonderful job Any other resources out there like we mentioned battle scribe a couple times. I didn't have it on here It is worth mentioning Hey aos reminders. Do you have there? It's a wonderful resource that uh, especially for the armies that are more complex that have more things going on in all the phases Um, it is a kind of an automated thing I've found aos reminders sometimes can be burdensome for some of those armies He's it'll like print out like seven pages and I want if i'm playing an army I want all of my reminders on a single page That's just like that's just uh one of my rules for my own kind of organization And so, uh, what I would say is that whether you use aos reminders or My advice would be to do aos reminders and then you like take what's there and use that to simplify to make your own sheet Yep Uh, I would also point out the another one I don't have here, but I will include in the description Is the weird boys the austin weird boys cheat sheet the gold standard of aos 3.0 cheat sheets Makes all this stuff of remembering things so easy. It's a front and back of a page You've got a two-sided printer front and back at the page You know Completely makes choosing your battle tactics and all this stuff so much simpler because it just has all the wording You can flip through you follow it down Yeah, uh Easy like the the the austin weird boys put this cheat sheet together. I'll link it down there so everybody can use it You can also just google austin weird boys cheat sheet, but I'll I'll I'll get it down there um fantastic cheat sheet Would recommend 10 out of 10 great work guys Uh, beautiful even like it even looks pretty so it's really nice Uh, so there you go.  Uh, and I wanted it super condensed um but uh Yeah, so there you go All right, cool any other resources we should share there tom anything else you can think of anything else you reference Uh, no, I mean, I think that's it. Uh, I mean what I for me what the other thing the other resource that I create is, um, I like, uh uh Like cards And so one easy way to do this is like there's like a magic like a magic card creator Like there's a bunch of different apps and resources and web pages that do this But like make printable magic cards. Um, and you can do that for your like your spell list Um, so that you can print off like you can just like type in your spells into this like these like resources and print Spells, right?  How many additional spells you still have Um, it's really helpful against like spell heavy armies like lumenath or zinch stuff like that Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very useful, especially if you have a spell heavy army to just make yourself little spell cards Yeah, yeah, yeah Uh, coach gave a shout out for terrain dice or tokens or something like that I'm gonna give my shout out. Okay. This is no slam against propainted Who every makes wonderful little plastic tokens that are really nice and are like army specific and all that Yep, but my honest answer is they're too expensive for what they do. Okay Here's what you do Oh, yeah, you go on to amazon or ebay Yep And you search for fridge magnets That are two and a half inches by one inch or something like that two inches by one inch You can get them in packs of like 200. They're these tiny little magnets. They're like this big a little magnet sheets Okay, they're very very small Like one inch by two inch or something like that find small ones You get yourself a pack of those From like they're dry erase. Sorry. They're dry erase fridge magnets. That's what they are You're searching for a little dry erase fridge magnets one inch by two inch And I'll see if I can find what I bought and I'll I'll throw I'm I'm already looking for them. Yeah, if I can find a link, I'll I'll put it in there. Yeah, and Then you get yourself a nice set of ultrafine tip sharpies What what size did you say? One inch by two inch or something in that range something pretty close to that.  I just take one of my little magnets I write down plus one to wound neg one to hit has finest hour on whatever I make myself a little a little thing on that magnet sheet And then I just set it next to the unit Easy Easy as punch I do not forget buffs Because I write them down. It's that easy Uh It's like I cannot recommend this enough. It is cheap as Uh, and there you go So yes, that's that's my recommendation and you get a pack of like 200 of those little magnets for like 10 dollars So it's you'll have all of them you ever need Oh, yeah, sorry. I guess right. I just say sharpies ultrafine dry erase markers. I'm sorry not sharpies. Thank you Here's uh, here's 36 for 14 dollars. Yeah, there you go. There's might be bigger, but okay No, these are these are two by one. Okay, cool. There you go. I got a bigger pack, but all right neat Uh, so maybe maybe I'm sure but that's that's the key. I highly recommend that Save yourself the headache. Don't try it. Don't say like oh this unit has blessed weapons, which is like double tap on six, right? And try to remember that no when I cast blessed weapons on a unit I write down blessed weapons and then I slide it right next to the unit and then I never forget Um, so there you go Uh, and another easy option there is uh getting like terrain dice So just getting dice whether you buy some of the pre-made ones or you can just buy dice and like blank dice And you buy like blank. Yeah, you can buy blank dice cubes and just use stickers.  I hope that stuff all helps. I'll I'll throw links in the description for people Um, uh, somebody asked about having extra three inch and nine inch sticks. That's definitely helpful for combat gauges and for uh, for dropping Here's a fun way to get three and nine inch sticks. Everybody ready? I'm gonna I'm gonna give you the cheap option here Vince is see I am one of the cheapest people you'll ever beat. So it's true Here's what I do I went on to amazon or some or to go to the dollar store and you find yourself Some cheap wooden 12 inch rulers now make sure they're the rulers that don't have extra crap on the sides that are actually you don't want the metal edge Yeah, yes, you want the 12 inch ruler. That's no metal edge.   You just keep them a little farther away. They're they're very weak magnets the little dry erase magnets They're not gonna stick to your people. Um, they're good No, they won't move models So if you had a big model that had a little magnet by the back corner of his base You could just like slide it partially under there and it'll stick to the magnet and then it will actually move with him I have done this Like you can attach it to the rim. Yeah, you can attach it to the rim. I have done that before so it like so it goes right okay, uh Final flash 17.   But yes, technically you lose a little bit in there. All right um Yeah, that's why you play by intent. Yeah, of course as always. All right um Oh, that's right. Awesome. Manzac said I believe some free paintsters have rulers on them too depending on the store Nice. Ah, even better. Now we're down to free I like where that's at.  He's been like like let me borrow this Measuring this paint sticks. I can see it now. I would absolutely do that. Look you got to be frugal in life That's all I'm saying, right? Uh You know, I'm I'm I'm all about being as cheap as possible. Tom knows me. I am a very cheap person So true. Okay I do not waste money. All right. Cool. So there you go fun stuff Mr. Mr. Yes meatballs you heard of your first vince vince cheats with 8.9 inch and 2.9 inch sticks What if I do I'm cheating against me? That is the wrong way to go All right, now let's get into the fun part of this discussion everybody Strap on your your your uh debate boots. Here we go The best armies the best and worst armies for new players. All right No, I'm time stamping this Uh, okay all right Tom This is my list. We're gonna go through these and then I saw them Yeah, I said I shared the list with you. So you had it in advance. So you you know what I'm doing here, but Here is my this is my list your list out there audience may differ if you disagree with me Put it in the chat. Why do you think I'm wrong? Okay as as we discuss them Uh, or if you think somebody that I didn't mention should be in here defend those people. That's fine I this this is my word is not dictum here. This is just my take on it Yeah All right. So before I talk about this, I want to say just a quick overview to me a good army for a new player Uh has a couple of factors. So the way I evaluate it is on cost Okay, like I how expensive is it to collect it? What are my collecting options? How many different methods do I have over there access to secondhand market? How common would easy would it be to find it in even 3d prints, right? So that's all kind of broadly lumped under collecting options and cost. Sure. Yeah, sure. Okay option one or sorry dimension one dimension two is Uh paint how easy is it for a new person to paint? right Yep, is it all like one substance? Can it be done a lot with bases and dry brushes and stuff like that? Yeah, right exactly Is it new painter friendly? Right?  And relies on a lot of techie BS to win Okay, or is it a pretty simple straightforward experience that tends to live within the Uh within the core expectations of the game Fair yeah to me those are kind of the x y z dimensions Yeah fair enough Yeah, all right Using those dimensions and understanding that they're all weighted differently, right? Like you can be not great on one of them and still be on this list of like Good sure for new players, right? It's yep Like if we were to sort of make a one through ten for everything and then assign weighting to them It's not like everybody has to be a ten In all three categories to be in this list. Yeah Okay Storm cast this one seems like the easiest slam dunk in the world to me tom Yeah, it's metal like it's just it's just a bunch of base coated metal painted details For the models themselves and it just pushes around as we said two weeks ago. It's the fighter class of aos Exactly simple rules new book is very new player friendly easy paint Like really the new models paint so fast So very fast There's also a million tutorials for these guys online by the way It's like just if you're thinking about trying to learn There's just like a million people who have painted storm cast online, right? Yeah Uh it says does aos have an equivalent of necrons for ease of painting and I'm saying it's probably storm cast honestly Because the advantage to necrons is that they're almost all metal And then you're just doing a couple details of like the gun and eyes and stuff, you know Aren't you I think Night haunt would be the most equivalent that's another like night hot Because like night haunt you could literally just paint them as fully translucent So like white with the green and then dry rush with white again And you're done like with the whole army like you could just say that even that our weapons are translucent You know that they're all just ghostly and so that would be the the most equivalent to necrons Um, but I agree storm cast would be fairly quick. Yeah I think they're actually one of the absolute best best best The the good collecting options I have here. I mean there are so many ways to get your hands On storm cast on star cast.  Yeah Okay seems like no that one feels no drama to me, right, right, uh oryx Also on this list good collecting options again, lots of there's lots of oryx out there There they still have some decent start collecting by the way action Um, they are plus they at various times done special box sets You might be able to find versions of like and and they're also a fairly elite army in some of the builds Like if you're in iron jog even cruel boys, you don't have that many of them on the table Basically outside of bone splitters and let's be honest who's playing bone splitters um, so, you know, but You're not even him anymore. If you watch the show last week, I think we broke him. Um But you know, they're fairly elite you don't need a lot of them. Um, as I like as I showed you can paint an army of of uh, you know iron jaws for example to a quite high standard in Uh, you know in a week. That's what I did for for when I did Tyler's army They're fairly easy paints. Again, they take stuff like dry brushing and contrast paints really really really well Um, you know, just like you think of stuff like the cruel boys seem I first seemed really complex to me honestly when I first looked at them I painted a couple of them and I was like honor these guys are easy Because they're all rough textures and stuff right and they just take contrast so well Right. They lend themselves to that that type of painting. Yeah. Yeah absolutely, um So to me, it's like oryx. I'm I'm I'm bringing them in because iron jaws and cruel boys right I'm kind of just moving you off to the side. I apologize. You know, like it's it's a different sort of army If you like, I mean the advantage to bone splitters you do build the whole army out of like one box Right and which is it which is in then the start clapping. Yeah But like just a double and their rules are certainly simple I guess so I'll leave them to the side. They're a controversial topic. That's like, I don't want to poke it a wound anymore. Sure. Sure All right, uh, so you said ogre maw tribes Tell me on this because to me like it seems Uh I agree with the star collecting. Yep. They they have a great star collecting Super I agree with Yep, which is to me really important. It's one of the most important elements for new like good starting armies Uh Gregory Richards, you're that you're the man. I love that. He said just get into os starting with iron jaws You've made the right choice. This is the this is the appropriate army Uh at any rate. Okay. So yeah, they have a great star collecting Um, there are lots of classic models available secondhand So old ogres haven't changed in a while, but they're still relatively good sculpts So whether you kind of no matter what side you want to get You can tend to get ogres pretty easy on the secondhand market. They're not that even so they're not that expensive like you don't need a ton of them if you're using the the uh, the Non bcr side name currently loading my brain. Um And I actually think they're a good Simple paint if you're starting people I think are scared of them I saw manzac asked earlier. Are they really on there because they have a lot of skin? And That was the one I that was my question. Yeah, I so first of all the big monsters the big monster trucks This is not even that's super easy, right because you only need like four or five of them And they're all dry and you can dry brush, right? Yeah, no But I know you're gonna say regarding the skin. It's because the musculature is so well defined on the ogres that Um, that they're easy to paint Exactly, seriously if you use the most basic gw method you learn Paint a base coat give it a wash put on one layer of highlight back up You can make ogres look awesome They're because they're big you're not and their body structure is so defined Their bodies are made for contrast. Yeah, exactly Exactly. So like yes, I agree skin is often hard for people when they start out What I'm saying is ogres defy that by having this almost cartoonish musculature That just takes to all of the sort of gw I'm a newbie. I don't really know what I'm doing painting methods Like I'm just going to turn its skin color and then slap a wash on there And then do one layer of highlights, right? Like that is the how you learn when you first start, right? Yep, that's and ogres will just look pretty good when you do that I've seen a lot of ogre armies where that's what people did and they looked fine Yeah, that's true. So between the bcr side being like super easy And then the that side still being fun.  I mean look at our boy larry the ogre here. Here he is. Look at him. He's just skin Pants belt That's this model Right. There's a reason I've used this dude in so many tutorials Because he shows everything really well because his skin is his musketeer and his skin is cartoonishly huge Right.  I'd have to build a thing in front of me, but you know Beast riders to fill your battle line right, right and then uh Then at least one frost lord on stone horn at that point you should have a pretty Pretty fair sized army and then just figure stuff out from there pick your last two things. I guess A hunter and some cats.  Brian has said that's what I aspire to be skin pants belt. Exactly. You don't need anything more simple Uh, okay Uh, autumn lotus said speaking of heat knights are hard as heck for newbies. Oh, I agree. We'll get to autumn I agree. We will definitely get to the to the we'll get to the bad boys Yeah, yeah, so I was gonna say if you want more details on building bcr list just hit up Hey, woe join any of his streams ask him for a list.  Tom. What do you think about my fleshy your quartz pick?  Well, this this will be easy You just need to buy this thing multiple times And so for him like he can buy it and build up and paint and then buy another one And he's ready and he already knows how to build all that because you're using a lot of the same kits And a lot of it is especially if you're just you don't really care You're not too strongly on like flesh you can do almost all that with a base coat and dry brush And then just paint nails and teeth Yep Yep, like it it like it's like it is one of those that is super easy to paint Uh Again rules here seem very straightforward to me the fec book is is quite sensible quite easy to navigate and play It's it's also by the way like a super awesome backstory. I know that wasn't one of my dimensions But they have like a really cool story I don't know it's it's neat, right? So it's part of it.  I did 60 ghouls 40 of them were 3d prints 20 were the traditional ghouls Um, so clay beast creations if you want to see some cool undead alternatives in the 3d printer world clay beast creations I'm gonna look at them right now. They're really good. They're super good Um, dude does some awesome work I think he's watched the show before at one point in time. So if you're out there or you watch this clay beast shout out Do great stuff. So um So there you go, um, you can so that that would be my alternative if you don't like the basic ghouls Um because that he has fantastic replacement ghouls Uh, yeah flesh eater just feels like a slam dunk, right rules paint easy to purchase good to go all right Tom next up your favorite. I'm gonna let you I'm gonna let you talk about this one to me This is the only chaos god that makes the good list It's funny because even like you put it on here and I don't know that I would put nervel On here as a good tell me your players and cons of nervel Yeah, I mean in my mind It doesn't have an easy collecting Like keep in mind the old star collecting demons that used to be pretty worthless is actually pretty good now Because I know of like flies and plague bearers, which are both good right but like But then you still need to buy like a guo. You still need to buy A slobby bio piper. You still need it like so Yes, you can get the core of some of your army. Sure. So you'll do like Because they have two star collecting a demon one in a robber anyway, right, right? So let's say you do four Star collectings for nervel which gets you 40 plague bearers Some nerglings that you're not going to run sure and a and and 12 flies Which realistically you're not going to run 12 flies. You're going to run six sure and Two harbingers, which you're really not going to use And maybe you'll use a harbinger Um, you still need to buy a bunch So you've bought four star collectings and you have a lot more of your army to buy you have to buy trees You have to buy terrain you have to buy um, you have to buy summonable units You have to buy a guo like I hear what you're saying. Yeah, like painting. They're pretty easy It's base coats and dry brushing but in order to have it really look nice You need to do the pusset the like the boils separately and so there's tons of detail on them I don't know. I I am less inclined to put nervel on this list Which is sad because that means that chaos doesn't have anything that's good on that list Um, I think nervel I would agree with you nervel is the best of the chaos god. Yeah So that's what I would say.  Yeah Yep, and so that that would be my critique is that like You're just not getting as much as as you could Yeah, that's what I would say Nurgle so I'm like, I think I think it's the weakest one on this list. That's fair. That's fair I I don't know that I disagree with that Okay, and we'll we'll get to the visual and we can argue about placement because I I made a visual for all this at the end That I can share out all I'll save it. I was an image and tweet and people can argue over it. Yeah, but like to me the advantage to nervel is One it it grabs the imagination of new players Because it's full of gross stuff Yeah, and if you paint it badly it often works better Sure. Okay. Sure. Yep. You can be rusty and messy and and throw goop all over it and hit them with nurgle's rot And there's a bunch of contrast paints that work great for them and make them look really good and you know Yes, you're right. You do have to maybe buy a great unclean one Maybe there's a couple of the things you've got to purchase. I wouldn't buy four star collecting That's the thing like I wouldn't go that heavy in But I think two star collectings is out of the demon side Because that's going to be 20 plague bearers six flies. I agree the nurglings are just okay. Yeah, whatever, but It's fine and good. No coach But I mean That's a good demon base to work from Right, but you have to like like Three quarters of your army used off the bottom Sure, which you could go like if you're starting out Maybe you want to bring in some of the rot ringer stuff So you could go get the the rot ringer star collecting and that's going to give you some some good blight kings and things like that Which are still fine, especially as a new player I mean, you're not trying to build the meta hard list as a new player You're trying to build something functional and fun, right? I understand that right and I think that might do that Maybe like my point is that there's That the army is just so diffuse and it requires terrain and requires summoning Like it at best it sits at the moderate. Okay. That's so I I understand where you're coming from and I'll say it's definitely the lowest on this list It also and although I don't think it's the most expensive on this list I would agree with that. I would agree with that All right But I think if you're into chaos, it's the best chaos option. I think we can both agree on that Sure. Sure. Yep. All right Night haunt I mean, this one's a slam dunk, right Uh, you know, so this is a weaker one on this list for me as well Like the painting is super easy. You know, like you can choose to literally the I think this is the easiest to paint army in AOS sure because you can literally just Spray it all white douse it all with the night haunt technical neon green Dry brush it white again and and you're done. You're literally done with the army Maybe you make the swords metal Maybe maybe yes, if you're if you're feeling saucy you can make the swords metal I decided to go another step farther and made all the cloaks the ragged cloaks real. Yeah, sure Um, but like the whole point being that like in general it is not a technical. It is not a difficult army to paint um It's it is weaker in the meta Sure, it is it is very finicky to play And what I mean by that is there's like lots of 12 inch overlapping circles. There's a lot of mobility So there's a lot of growth in it as an army But if you like I think that it is it is one of the more difficult to like to do well Like to have something that's fun and engaging. They didn't it doesn't feel like you're just bad all the time Yeah, does that make sense? Uh, and so um So this is I I would say it's a great like johnny Starter army, okay Okay, that's what I would say Yeah, I think it's very beautiful. I think it is super easy to paint. I think it's I think it's rules. You're right. They're not The easiest, but they're also not the hardest like let's be honest with ourselves.  That's it Right, right like there's no math impossibly a six up Yes, or five up depending on Right depending on if your guy hit and later in the phase Everybody gets to re you know like there's a couple of weird things like they are talking about But if people are starting they're going to run some chain rasps They're going to oh, and everything's flying. Thank you. That's a great one. So it's like mobility becomes really easy. You don't actually trap yourself in Uh, ravioli the you'd ask what's a johnny? It's a it's a reference to psychographic profiles from magic And it's the type of player who really enjoys create like creative play opportunities and creative wins right Like that is a it's like the the very sort of people who appreciate technical complexity skill challenging stuff. They want to They want to express something grow into Yeah, like it's an army that you can grow into and there's layers of nuance and complexity That you can really like the better you are the the the better you'll learn how to pilot this thing and do You know very unusual things with the army, right? So Um, so when I we refer to johnny, that's what we're referring to where spike, you know You often hear use the term spike, which is those players who kind of want to win at all costs And so it's often going to be a power for power sake even if it means that i'm hurting myself If i'm losing i will lose to win as a spike, for example, that would be a very um spike thing to say And then finally timmy's vince go ahead and talk about timmy's because timmy's like they like to experience stuff They like to experience things that's what it is big they like big things and monsters I like that we did a whole show on it recently if you're curious, this isn't a show But if you're curious, we did a whole show on psychographic profiles. I would highly recommend going and checking it out I really stand behind as one of our better episodes we've done in a while They're not all bangers, but this one was so go check that out Um, I you know somebody I I think knight haunt is an awesome path to glory army Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. I mean one of the drawbacks that has been pointed out in the chat Is that you have to paint a ton a crap ton of models at night haunt I would say that that's not as true in the new edition. Yeah because of reinforcement points It's not as bad as it used to be. Sure.  Yeah, you're not gonna have two blocks of 40 Chain rasps anymore. Yeah, right. You can't right Yes, it's mathematically Bernie is as much as you're getting now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a decent number of models But it's I you know, I don't know. It's you know, when uh, you know, we've got a person our group who plays knight haunt and You know, they seem to have a good time with it Uh, and and they're they're a pretty casual player. They're not new. I love but you know, I think that I think it can appeal to people at all levels. All right. Yeah, last one on the good list Yep, and obviously all these are not created equal but that's as I said at the beginning, right? um Okay, uh sons of behemoth. All right advantage of sons. It is a four to six model army It has a very simple play experience and it is an easy to moderate paint. It's big That's a challenge, right? Like let's be honest.  They're super easy um, but Like they are play wise from a rules perspective. They are one of the most easy experiences you can have Downside is that is an expensive army Like if you were collecting a four mega army in the us straight up, that's 800 bucks Buy them all new at retail. No, I hope you don't pay retail, but there's it is, right? now advantage to the sons There are a lot of alternative our models out there that can stand in for the sons of behemoth, right? so that expensive part can be uh Minimized moderated whatever you want to say, right? Because there are things like kings of war makes a couple good alternate giants The wiz kid giants are really nice. There's some uh, like nozzars marbles miniatures. We are there and the whatever they're called I don't I don't know those like the d&d giants they make alternatives there There are a good number of 3d print giants out there that are that are um on there. So like it's um It's like Uh You've got options. You don't have to spend $800 is what I would say There are other things you can do Okay. Yeah, I agreed agreed Uh, Christopher malin says knight haunt are flimsy models. Yes. This is true They are they are a little they are more finicky boys Uh, that is that is true. Uh, not a problem with the sons chonky boys. Right easy like very easy to transport around You can just put them with the with the the sons. You can actually just strap them into all your car seats Uh, put the seat belt down. They're good to go. They can just ride with you when you get to the store You just unbuckle all four your giants and bring them in like you like you this is where you got kids Tom you've got four kids somebody it's same same thing basically Yeah, just strap malin. You're good Yep Uh, okay, so this is all my what I would call good list As an aside as an aside it was pointed out in the chat Guardian of souls remarkably hard to come by affordable ones on uh on ebay right now Uh, they're all like 75 dollars in the u.s Sure, sure Or you can just take any of the other character ghosts and put a little candlestick in his hands and be like This is like guardian of souls So also true William Wright said use the sons for the carpool lane. I mean, I think it should count If you get pulled over i'm not responsible, but if the cop guards you a ticket, I feel like they're just Look at them and say it's just me and my sons in the car. Yeah, exactly just me and my It's good Tom. It's good. I like it Okay, uh brian s has put the kids in the trunk buckle in your gargants. That's exactly right now. You've got the right idea Uh, okay Next up medium ready medium. This is this is the this is the milk toast Of starter armies tom Here we go My moderate armies list slaves to darkness Sure Like it's got a cool start collecting still the only place you can get the new knights and warriors for some reason Yeah, I mean you could do like a couple box that you could do archion and a couple boxes of varron garden call it It's a lot of money. Uh, it is. Here's my problem with slaves Is it more than is it more than uh than sons though uh If you needed you'd have to have three units of varron guards that 300 bucks plus archion 500 You're cheaper man. You got 300 more You got 300 more that you can dump totally. Let's do this. I would not wish painting varron guard upon any new player The the problem with slaves as I see it and here's here's to me. This is more about what keeps them out of the good column Slaves is huge. There's like a million billion billion units Okay They It is oftentimes confusing to build lists in them They have all sorts of weird rules like coalition units and I can bring in all these other things and what does this mean? Right Right, right the layers of complexity. Yeah, like slaves has just a higher level of complexity It's such a large force and to actually plus painting a lot of those models Can actually be pretty challenging like they're not an easy paint. There's a lot of models with trim They have the sort of chaos marine problems. So whether you're talking like Marauders are old and look terrible Uh, but I mean they they're okay paints probably but like even any chaos warrior is still somewhat challenging Because they're still fairly detailed the new ones especially so chaos knights Varron guard like pick your thing like there's we can go around the force, right? It's not as though there's any slam dunkaruni easy paints In the force for the for the most part that you're going to really use as an army, right? They also have like all these different war cry war bands and how am I supposed to use these? right What like what are the value of these things? Uh, it's just it's a blur f2. Yeah Yeah, like there are There are like slaves has it's a it's a great army It's truly the classic look of war hammer as I say here, right? Like the chaos warrior is as classic as it gets but It's not easy It's a tough army to get into again medium armies don't mean you shouldn't do it It just means I want you to go into it with your eyes open, right? These are these are harder Right, right Doesn't mean these are bad. I didn't say these are bad armies for new players. Did I does this slide say bad armies for new players? They're just difficult. It doesn't more difficult. It says moderate Yes, correct So the challenge with slaves is that and why they're in the medium category is because where it's where there's both good and bad right sure and There's just a lot but a lot bigger army. It's a lot more confusing. It's there's a lot of different Stuff. There's not as clear of a path through it Yep But slaves is a super cool army like don't get me wrong. It's it's at the top of my list here because I think it is a great army Yeah, uh And I I think that like if you love that look of war hammer Which to me slaves of darkness encapsulates in a big way Then it's great. It's a fine army to start with just be aware That it's going to be trickier. You're going to have more rules to navigate. It has a higher skill floor Yeah, and you're going to need Uh, it's going to take you more time painting bottom line Yep Seraphon Yep, I mean hit me with your seraphon thoughts dom Do they have Do they still have like all beast boxes or is the start collecting the skinks and the knights? They do have star collecting options. I believe they have two of them actually So they do have an all dinosaur one like all I legitimately don't I I looked through all the star collecting is just a prep for this That's why I say they have star collecting options Um, so I apologize Tom. I didn't like record all of what the star collecting has. I just was looking to see How interesting is it like back when you could just buy the dinosaur? Like, uh, sorry it this really does hinge on on what what their star collecting is for me Uh, so they have Osaurus one And they have a skinks one, but they don't have just a big dinosaurs One. Yeah, sorry. No, this one is uh I I agree with your assessment the range is old and their star collectings are all over the place Yeah, to me the challenge with seraphon is a couple now Big advantage for seraphon Super fun paints Sure. Okay. Sure.  I am an amazing painter Right Because they're all just scales and rough textures and stuff like that It it is made to be drybrushed. Yeah, like these are so good for new painters and they're fun and they're cool It's just like who doesn't want to paint dinosaurs dinosaurs, right? Yeah, um My challenge or lizard writing dinosaurs or yeah, exactly. We're dinosaurs writing dinosaurs Part of the problem is a lot of this range is super old right now Okay Yep, the range is all over the shop Yep on on age some of them being like truly ancient Oh The army itself is pretty complex As far as play style goes Like you have a set of general legions rules Then you picked coalesce or starborn and it's just what and then there's all these different bonuses that get passed out and it's just It's a it's a fairly complex play army Relying on a lot of cross buffs and you know complicated reactions Now, yes, there is like a simpler monster mash list like that does exist in here But you have to kind of it's not hit you in the face Right and that's what I was checking Like a two dinosaur box, right? Yeah, it was the break the realms box Yeah, and that's what I was thinking about like if they had that Then I would be way more open to this being viable Or this being higher ranked, but yeah To me it's like its paint is way up here like super easy, right? Usually in the positive its rules are like way down Okay And its availability is right dead in the middle If that makes sense like rules at the bottom paint top This in the middle averages out to in the middle That's why it's a medium army, right? Because there are a lot of like 3d print options and alternate people out there Who've made alternate lizard men and dinosaur models and stuff like that I mean it's a lot of let's be super frank There is a lot of alternative models out on the market, right? Yeah, absolutely But at the same time the range is also very big If you're sticking just to the gw models is newer people stand to it can be hard difficult to collect these and so on So yeah, it's it that's what puts it right in the middle So just know that it's got those three scores Yeah, and then navigate accordingly Ben he went long totally off topic, but I have to ask when is my boy Tyrion getting some love in aos We don't know wouldn't we all love to know sometime sometime Probably I think if you ask the majority of the player base ben they would say hopefully not for a long time Because lumeneth have gotten so much attention So true that I don't think anybody wants to see another thing called lumeneth for a long time Coradron overlords This is in the medium for me Yeah Do you think it belongs there tom?  Tell me about ko Largely easy to paint Yeah More complicated than stormcast, but there are a lot of metals, but they're more detailed and smaller But still a lot of need less battles. Yeah. Yeah, um Decent start collecting box like you could buy two of those solidly and have a nice force That two of those and some boats and you're done um I mean my challenge is that ko is just a very difficult force to build And play well Like there's no So for new players, it's just not where I would start Because you're not playing the same game everybody else is playing Yeah, and so you you're going to be like so this is how you play the game But you don't obey any of those rules sure because you're going to play like this Um, and so I think modern is probably safe. It's not a bad army.  That's probably going to be a A bad day for your opponent just because you have so much shooting And yes, like shooting is still strong but The challenge is this like If anybody gets into you you just blow up like you don't have you don't have the like the depth That we had when you could like three ups rerollable save on your ironclad. Yeah, it's not a forgiving army. I'm with you I get you know. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair Um, yeah, so my my answer was it's got does have a good start collecting Like you mentioned vehicles can be a little tough for a new painter, but the figures overall are simple The army isn't that large Right. That's that's another advantage. Like it's it isn't a force. You're like, jeez. What do I hold on? I got 10 more units here. I got a sort three, right? um That's pretty it's pretty contained force right, yeah And but the the book is challenging with rules to me. That's what's holding it back big time The rules are challenging. They're not overwhelming. There are worse as I've said we'll get to them on the next line It's like you get to garrison your boats and you're like, where are those rules? Right. Yes. Yes No disagreement. That's to me. It's almost completely the rules that landed them here on this page Yeah Yeah, because like understanding how the boats work how you're like that kind of stuff the fact that it is a very unforgiving army Ie like you I don't disagree at all with your point about defensiveness You know, one of the great things about stormcast is like they're tough enough that if you kind of screw up or misplay You can generally take a hit and keep on playing Right because they're hard to remove You might not do the most damage back, but you'll still feel like you're playing the game You mess up with something like charade or an overlords and it's like oops Well, you're dead pick it up You know, sorry Right Yeah Okay I agree Daughters of cane Decent start collecting Yep Decent not great, but decent My my my rating system here is like decent good great bad, you know, that's something like that. Yep. Yep Trickier paint Yep, you have a lot of flesh. You have a lot of flesh, but this time it's the opposite story of the ogres Right, like all the flesh is ill-defined It's ill-defined female flesh, which is harder than big musk mussely ridiculously exaggerated cartoonish ogre flesh Right, right. These are like tiny women in bikinis Right, which I mean it has its own perks, but sure everybody loves bikini girls with machine guns. Yeah, I understand I yep But It is a trickier paint Uh now at the same time the new book is good Solid options without being too complicated, right like you can as we talked about it's a very linear book Yeah, right when you read the book You go, okay. I like this thing. So I'm supposed to take this and this and this Right, like it is a very linear rules experience When you when you read through the book you're like, okay. I like snakes. Cool. I need this snake lady boss I'm gonna take these snakes. I need to be in this snake city Okay, got it. I understand. I take the snake things, right? Everything is like clearly labeled You know what I'm saying? You like snake things. Here's your snake stuff. You like the you like the the Kill ladies.  Like whatever you want, right? right Yeah You want you want to play craith awesome You can be bad and play sister's slaughter. Your name is your name is chuck. Yes Uh, okay. So, yeah, the the one of the downsides of them is also expense They are a pretty expensive army Yes, they are the start collecting does contain a lot of what you need like straight up it does Okay, I mean, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. You can build a lot out of that thing But it is an expensive army. You're Whether it's your core troops that you're going for witch elves Or if you're going for sisters or if you're going for The snakes, um blood sisters or blood stalkers, you know, it's There's there's a significant in vents. Sorry, uh investment you're gonna have to make there, right? Yeah So, um, yeah, there we go Okay, so blight grave lords What do you think about my placement here on modern? Okay. All right, let me tell me yeah, like What's your I think it's probably like I think that I mean, you could buy like 30 knights and some vampires I mean if you could find blood knights with that's challenge number one is finding blood knights in the world Sure. Yeah, I mean, let's be real right now. There's but like they're there. It's a hard to find kit Right. Um And yeah, yeah, I I think it's problematic Because like some of your army is the is from kerf city Yeah, there's just questions right like of what goes where how it fits, you know, it's all the questions that we had from slaves to darkness With additional complications of availability of product sure And But I think a lot of it writes itself like oh in here. I'm supposed to have like wolf vamps or in here I'm supposed to have this Um, it's lots of different textures on the models and that's probably like the painting would be a problem Some yes some no Yeah Yeah, that's those are kind of my initial thoughts. Okay Let me tell you why Let me tell you why I I placed it here Okay, so yes some depending on what you want. It is a decent sized army Yep, but depending on what you want It can be expensive or challenging, but it could also be super cheap Okay, right what I mean by that is if your thing is like zombies and dire wolves and that kind of stuff If you're going for that kind of thing if that's what grabs your attention That's going to actually be a super cheap army to pick up I mean zombies not only the new gw zombie kits Which are actually out there and available, but I mean there's my god. There's a million zombies from every miniature manufacturer slash Uh 3d printer. There's like you you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a zombie, right? And and zombies are the easiest paint in the world Right, they are the speed painters dream. There's a reason ninjahn did i'm gonna paint 120 zombies in a day as a video Right, right And that's by the way, that would be a lot of the army done right there Right, it's not it's not an insignificant number of points. He just did Yep so, uh You know and things like dire wolves again even the new dire wolves easy paint A lot of fur a little bit of bone things like that skeletons pretty easy paint Bone and rusty metal and some tattered cloaks Okay You know that your your main stuff isn't actually hard Right Now some of your character models are Can be a little more challenging like blood knights are pretty ornate Some of the character models are fairly ornate, right? so You know, there is some challenge here, but again, this is one of those armies that can also favor dirty painting Right, like if you're new and you want to slap washes and dirt and you know mud and grime and stuff all over your your people Yeah, okay Right, like it'll feel appropriate and you can cover a lot of sins with that kind of stuff. Just go with nuts Right blood again blood effects. Sure like absolutely blood effects. Man start going crazy. Just splatter that blood all over the place, right? so So and I think that their rules are in my mind moderate but clear They benefit that they were basically made for 3.0. So they have a pretty strong alignment And it's not as linear as doc, but it feels pretty moderate like my answer tom is in every category. They are moderate Yeah, I would agree with that. That's fine. Does that make sense? That's why I put them in medium Paint is like medium, but not too bad purchasing medium, but not too bad play medium, but not too bad Unlike seraphon, which were like all over the shop Right. Yeah, these guys were just the most pitching right down the middle Sure. Yeah Yeah So that that was my feeling as to why they belong here Yeah, okay Bad armies for new players This is a long list It's where a lot of things lie all right the poor armies There's going to be a lot of people upset about this because i'm going to name their favorite army This isn't so let me say this first. This isn't a judgment on the quality of the army Okay Uh, robert mcmillan it was clay beast creations This isn't a judgment on the quality of the army This isn't a judgment on if the army's like bad Overall, if you love it, I'm happy for it As always if someone is super stoked for an army and is going in with eyes wide open then fine They can pick any army, but I want to be transparent about in the void. What are the hardest ones and to me all of these are bad As your first army As your first army for a new player first army Before we get into the bad armies and I make everybody angry don't forget to hit that like button Go ahead and go ahead and slam it folks before I piss you off talking about your armies Okay cities Not army number one tom how you feel about cities being on the list of bad stuff I mean, yes, because even though it's it has it It can present a great play experience Like there's Where to start Where do you start with 37 different units? And almost all of them old models that are likely to like That could be cut on the next round sure Um, and also an army that's likely to get an update in some way in the next four months maybe Yeah, I mean it's A nightmare of overlapping war scrolls Yeah, that's like what do I think for these two things that are almost identical because you're gonna flip the book and read four war scrolls That seem all pretty similar And not have the nuance to understand. Why are these different things? Why do they cost different points? Which one do I actually need? Right, right And it's all these different weird wacky heroes. It has a lot of like Uh, it does have a lot of old models hidden throughout it Um, it yes, it has two different star collectings. I I hear you Howard Hoeven Um It's like and yes, there are a lot of second hand models around But even the second hand models aren't a lot of these units aren't the easiest paint in the world Like a lot of them are fairly detailed things classic elves and classic dwarves and classic empire folks Which is you know the sort of core of it, right? Well classic wonderer is not even classic high elves Yeah, well, I was thinking phoenix stuff, but sure sure sure sure Yeah Indeed, you know, they're not the easiest to paint right. Yeah. Yeah, you know like It's also like tricky to understand the cities and what that means and how that generates what your army special rules are Like this is not a newbie friendly army. It's just not No, I agree with that. Yep. And there's just so many traps hidden in the rules Like there's so many straight up traps This is in the bad list. We're going to introduce the presence of traps Where you could really like something and collect a bunch of it and it turns out to just be the worst play experience like flagellants sure Yeah, like I have 120 flagellants Is I like flagellants And they don't synergize with almost anything in the book Sure Uh, so it's tough All right. I think we agree on that one fire slave Yep, just awful Now in the in the slight plus column go ahead. I'll wait. Give me your slide. They have a they have a nice Uh star collecting box. It's yeah. Yeah, okay. It's okay. Um, it's all right. Like it's a decent star collecting box It's usable Um the They're pretty they have some pretty well defined musk literature So like they they do they take washes really nicely Um to the skin. So they're they're back to the ogre situation Um, I mean they are smaller, but yes, they're smaller, but they're doing the same type of thing You only basically have to buy two boxes which is Either the oryx slash hearth guard box or the start collecting um But they have a lot of heroes they have like all the foot heroes And which ones to use when are Is they have like two or three real foot units That are non heroes and then there's like 15 heroes Here's my argument. Yeah, sure. It's a slow ponderous army. That's rules are like fairly opaque And like yes, the collecting of them isn't terrible, but they can still be expensive to collect for a full army They can yeah, especially depending on what you want to do Um, like some of their kits are some of the higher priced infantry kits around right now. You don't need a huge number of them fair right But they are some of the higher priced kits. They're up there with like daughters for their their cost structure, right? Yep, and their play style is such that you really have to like it just doesn't play well into aos 3 and it's Even even understanding what units what And you know, even in this small army Can be challenging And I think you're just honestly going to find it hard to like win games It's going to be a frustrating experience to play them I don't disagree with that. Yep So, you know, maybe they're the highest on this list because of the at least easiest to get into them Like because you could buy four shark collectings get four magma droths, right? Sure and and realistically like run three units of 10 Like 10 bullpipes and four magma droths in a uh in one of the lists And well, no. Yeah, and like and you still have another Approximately like 300 points to spend and you see you buy a couple boxes at oryx, right? Like the shooters and you run a loft near like and like at that point you have like a very viable army You do have a like a like a father a rune smiter two sons Um, you have two or three units of your battle line that can stand on points Uh, you can have a foot hero for teleporting and then 10 shooters Like that's not bad Like and that wouldn't be an expensive buy either, right? It's not the cheapest, but it's not the worst. Sure No, like four getting started and then two of the foot troops of the oryx Um, I mean and that's not a bad army. So Uh, but I agree that it's not gonna be uh Like you're gonna have to work to make it work Yeah, I just I don't I think paint wise. It's actually pretty tough I think that Again, not the worst. It's definitely not the worst Okay, I mean what I'll say is my fire slayers paint up fairly quickly Yeah out of everything that I paint they paint fairly quickly And I just like I think it's almost their rules that think of the most force I think we're arguing over nothing because no one likes fire slayers. So, yeah I guess the people who really I mean the surveys the surveys suggest you're right In the less than 1% of players that play fire slayers, right? So, you know, what are we even talking about here? It's I guess if you're one of the the extreme minority of players who thinks fire slayers are awesome Kenny I still love fire slayers, right? It's it's like Kenny lull and you Assume you guys have a club. It's probably Scan meetings. We have we have our own dice, you know, there's even a measurement stick. That's a forge key. Well, look at that. Isn't that cool? There is a private club There you go I'm not deep kid, but Yes, let's move on I dk the idineth deepkin Uh Star collecting isn't great. Let me just say that It's an expensive army to collect You know, uh Very challenging paint for many of the models like these guys are detailed They have They're like a lot of different weird colors weird colors right Uh The and yes, oh a state of Kevin. Yes ogres. We're in the good category.  Their roles are weird Right, it's not straightforward.  Like you it's not it's also just like You know eel dot list probably doesn't work as well either and if you did that's also complicated um I would I would love coach says he would have put idk in medium I'd like the defense for that coach Yeah, I don't I don't see it like it's a complicated army to play It's a difficult army to paint because it's like there's just no straightforward easy way of painting it And the rules the way that it plays is non-intuitive to aos Like it's not like you teach the people the game and say okay Now you don't obey any of these rules. You do your own thing You're gonna well, we're gonna talk about the the king of that particular thing here in a moment But yes, I agree a lot of that is going on Yeah I see uh brent from re-rolling ones in the chat probably taking uh Offense at our fire slayers chat.  It means they're not good for the new player. So Right, they're not. Yeah, we're not Overall quality of the army Mike one of my favorite Both of my favorite armies are on this list Are on the bad list Okay Also true. Yes, they're just not good armies for new players. Right. And that's what we're trying to offer advice for yeah Yeah, I I just think idk is is really a rough road to start with. I couldn't imagine recommending it as a starting army I agree. Okay. Unless you just want a painting project Sure, if you weren't like yes, good call if you weren't actually a player If you were just like looking to get in you're like, I just want to have a fun painting time I paint a lot and I want to paint the coolest prettiest models. All right great totally different story Right. Yeah, like like they're in you get mr. Crabb. Yeah, absolutely Okay, uh Beast of chaos Lots of old models not granny odd not This could change in two months if they redo the book and redo the line Sure, which you know, I'll be shocked if we actually get new models, but hey if we can only hope Um Shocked is strong, but I would be surprised. How about that? There we go. Yeah The start collecting is okay. It's not terrible. It's okay But it does come in a big monster you don't need so There's that I don't need them But it is a very challenging play style for new players with a very high skill floor now It does have a more forgiving paint in general Uh, but you're gonna paint a lot of models, but you've got to paint a lot of models Goodness gracious. Yes Want to paint 160? Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah. It's like how many on gore and bestigore are you willing to paint? Is that old models? The answer is all of them. Yeah. Yeah, and they're old models They're just not a lot of like easy to yeah Yep. Yep Lot of old models in the range Um, so collecting is not easy The models are like just it's bulk like you just have to paint lots and lots of models The models of sculpts aren't too stellar sure, um And the play style itself is difficult. So like it's just it's there's no It's another book with some serious traps in it, too Like some hardcore trap units right now Yeah, you're like, oh, I like I bought starting collector.  I see you painted that because you bought it. I'm sorry, right Yeah, and and uh, yes as as uh to sarathi points out, uh, also unfortunately the zangor component of this the zinge component of the army are Not easy to paint at all at all I bought a bunch of zangor and then I like put the ones from silver tower together because I'm like, oh, I'm going to do this and then I was like, no, no, I'm not Right, right. They're gonna take 10 years to paint. Nope. Right Okay Uh, I just lumped all of these together because they're all basically the same story Zinge slanesh corn the other three demon armies that aren't nergal all Bad to start with They're all highly techie armies with challenging paints for different reasons across the three. Okay Zinge is overtly complicated and detailed slanesh has way too many fiddly ridiculous pieces and bits And yeah, and corn cleaning and scraping mold lines. Yeah, I'm thinking about the hell flayer Yeah, sure the chariots and corn is the king of brocades like he loves the the whatever the ornate edges to his armor are right like he's He's the thing and and red and reds are not the easiest paint color for four new players. Sure So And they all every one of these armies just has options out the yang that can be traps Right Yeah, all three of these armies Again, it's sad because these are cool as and they're part of their big parts of the warhammer world But all three of these armies are just In my estimation some of the absolute worst not the worst that that title's coming in a moment But just some of the worst stuff you can start with They're complicated. They're hard paints. They're often expensive too because they're big Filigree, thank you. Yeah, that's that's what I was like. That is the word I was looking for brian s. Sorry. Yes He's the king of filigree. Thank you brian s And uh It's just like I just I would not ask anybody to start these armies They shouldn't be like that. Maybe zines should maybe zines should always be on this list. Okay. Yeah Uh, corn We're definitely corn shouldn't be it should be on the good list Corn should be the chaos good army. It should be hanging out with its destro bros Up there in the world of easy to get into hey, I like to punch things great. I got an army for you Come on in. This is yeah, you found the right guy Yeah, okay But it's not Yeah, it makes me sad. Uh, again that contains, you know, one of my two favorite armies right there, but it's just true Um, scaven my other favorite army Many many old models very out of date Very complex army to play Large number of trap choices Right. It's it. It's a fantastic army. It's a great army a bad army to start with correct It's the most fair army in warhammer right now. I stand behind that And guess what also the worst army or one of the worst armies to start agree. Yes Uh, kelly says obviously new players should start with these armies so that they can be forged in the crucible of hobby pain Well, I don't I don't know if we want to we will lose too many but I guess I guess that's just the the The weed to being separated from the chaff I suppose so fair it off. Yeah, I mean if you want players to like Stop playing the game you can start here. Yeah, sure If you want to get somebody into one army and then never have them play again. Yeah, it's a good place to start Yeah, scaven's just a complicated crisscrossing nightmare for a new player Yeah, uh glooms fight. Yep Challenge to collect very tricky army to play can often have extremely large numbers of models depending on what you're Depending on what you build but again Even understanding what you're supposed to build wait. How am I supposed to use these little angry beach balls?  Can I just play all balls? Yes, you can so And yeah, so this is what here's where I would qualify the statement though I think that there are a couple exceptions to this like glooms fight has like some Like there are some asterisks here includes fight, right?  Yep A lot of the problems simplify and it's a fairly straightforward push things forward and hit it real hard. Sure Probably the same with trog's, right? And that's what that's the other one the other asterisks here is trog off the troll list Which is just push things forward very like hefty army Very uh ogre like Yep Those would those two like sub factions of This army I would bump up to moderate because they're going to be easy easy to paint easy to play I agree with that actually Yes, um Gits was a tough one for me to classify because when I thought about it I thought about it from the mainly from the perspective of you're getting into it because you like goblins Right, and you want to play geats Geats, right? But if you're getting in it because you like beach balls if you like squigs, right? Or you're getting it because you like trolls then actually like yes, or those these probably moderate army Agreed it moves up to moderate if that's your if that's your thing they have simpler play styles They're much simpler paints. They're also easier to collect by the by Both of those things You're smaller forces You know reasonable cost so uh You know my my answer is Gets is bad if you're goblin focused, but moderate or poor. I should say if you're goblin focused moderate if you're uh squig or Troll focused. Yes, totally agree with that and the get it I will say though like the getting started box is not held full. No, it's not Which is three trolls and a squig heard they keep throwing three trolls in as just like the bonus To everything they do every time they make a box. They're like here's a bunch of squig stuff three trolls it should have been Three of the bro stone trolls three of the fell water and a hero if they did like hero troll If they did that as your box people would be all over it sure as the all troll box Is that now you're back in the classification of like the flesh eater court start getting started box Yeah, where you know, it's all banging on all cylinders And then there are traps like spiders Yeah, we got some spider debenders here in the chat, tom I know I love spiders, but They would fall off of this list Yes, uh, okay silvaneth Beautiful models very challenging play style way too much faction terrain this army Okay What's that 90 90% of your army is just wildwood Uh Like contrast me. Yeah, right. Like that's what my daughter did. She just did wildwood Juana spain and then have like a light like a like a dry Light tan wood that she dry brushed with and it looks great So but uh, but if you're playing it's just it's uh, it's yeah, it's a thing very complicated play style And Which silvaneth woods rules do you need to use with them? Exactly exactly You gotta purchase a bunch of woods and they've had five different sets of rules in the last three months and they're still not right So You know It's a shame Silvaneth are gorgeous But there but and I agree with you paint wise they fall on probably the I think they're easy. I honestly think that they're an easy category like upper easy Because there there are some characters. They are as easy if not easier than storm cast Is storm cast have like The armor plus the shoulder pads plus the trim around the shoulder pads Like there's a lot of different moving pieces that like of like smaller detail stuff that you're doing on storm cast In order to really like make it pop But like for these trees you're like wood leaves weapon done fair But the woods man the woods and the rules it's the woods and the rules That's what brings them down to this list. I know and I agree and I agree My daughter's like, when are you gonna show me how to play and I'm like I want you to actually play the game, sweetie Aaron M says they're easy to paint pain to transport. That's probably not wrong Yep Yeah Uh, okay, and they can be friendly. They can break pretty easily as well. Yeah, like the the branches Yeah, but you know that alone wouldn't be a deal breaker. Yeah deal breaker. No. No.  Let me teach you the rules of the game now forget all that and learn you learn a completely different thing That's what OBR is. It's a great second army Right But its play style is often tricky and ponderous Yep It's Rules are just not even 3.0. It's some other thing It's just got you know what it is It's the um It's the marshal handbook from the end of third 3.5 Which was functionally the fourth edition rules, but not fully refined fourth edition rules Remember like the book of nine sorts. That's what it was the whoopsie style Yeah, uh handbook at the end of third edition d&d. That's exactly what it is Because it's like a glimpse of play testing of the next edition without actually being that thing Right, right. Yes a hundred percent. You're right. It's the book of nine sorts army. Yes I also these things aren't the easiest paint. Let me just say that I know that there's a lot of bone, but it's not traditional skeletons. There's also a lot of armor Obvious it's not obvious. What's bone and what is not bone because it's all weirdly It's like merged and flowed into other stuff. Yeah. Yeah, uh, and Yeah, there are traps and there are traps here too. Yes 100 percent. Yes So, um Yeah, I just I couldn't ever imagine the world where I said somebody said hey, I'm new I like I like these three armies and one of them was obr And I said and they said which one should I pick and I told them obr I would I can't even imagine it I Unless they came in and said I must play obr or I will die. I'd be like, okay, man I enjoy learning the game twice Uh, but there you go so Chris and then Chris says man, but ninjahn did that army a while back in a short time and made it in record time Yeah, he did his army fast. I've seen it up close. He definitely did it fast That's a shot. That's a shot at you john. I hope you watch this later take that Okay, I beat that army. That's all I'm saying okay, uh so Yeah, I mean it's uh, let's talk about the worst the king of the ring on bad for new players lumineth realm lords The Yes, lumineth realm lords. This has got to be as I say here the least new player friendly army ever made Now this is not a judgment on is lumineth good or bad like every other army we said here. Okay, right, right but holy crap I could I don't think I could design a less new player friendly army if that was my design goal This is this this is second legacy the army. It's insane Like it like the complexity that this army packs into like 75 pages Of spells of hero phase actions of single-use resources Of um command abilities Terrain game breaking Table-wide effects Hero phases that take 12 hours as you Complicatedly work through all of the different triggers and things that you have to do in the right way in this sequence, right? and They're really finicky fiddly models to paint. Yes. Yes. They are like like they're not easy models of paint No, they're gorgeous. Don't get me wrong like but like all high elves. They're very They and you have to paint they should they should look Should look yeah, I don't paint your models. However, you want always if you want super dirty rag and lumineth I completely support that but Ostensibly if you're trying to paint the schemes that are in the book Yeah, right.  It's that well, jeezalpeets like that matters. It's the king of in addition It is just by like it is the if I cannot again This is the least nuclear friendly army. They've ever made and you know what the most offensive part about it is though There's no getting started box. No, there's not there. There's just that I mean, you can still find that old lumineth Uh box that they expensive when it comes to the book or whatever We're saying like with the fake with the fake book the bait the book that doesn't even like that isn't the army Correct. Yes, right, right. It only has half the army in it. Yes Yeah, yeah um so Just that's it. That's it. There it is. I mean, I don't know what else to say. Yep That's the bottom I like this should be the asymptote of complexity ever designed If any book is ever worse than this We like we've gone too far. This book is already arguably too far Yeah period. Yeah Okay, uh, I think I'm amazed because I think I'm watching over here and the closed caption turned on And I think it actually got the word asymptote. Correct. Which is impressive. I'm impressed All right, here's my here's my little visual because of course, we've got to have a fun visual to end the show with Uh now I have here my my little chart my quad graph My box graph of high cost to low cost on the x and easy to play to harder to play on the y all right And so you can see how they sort of almost form a line here and then there's this one that's just sitting way out Way out here this outlier army and sons of bad mobits over here and very easy to play but much higher cost uh again, um I am uh I am assuming you're buying the real models You can get away much much cheaper like this would crash through the floor if you just went and bought kings of war giants or something Right. Yes. And as somebody pointed out the upper right is incredibly packed If you if you bought reefer bones giants sure sure. Yeah, there there are options Yes There are options to get that army for under 200 dollars or maybe under 100 probably honestly Uh, I'll take that challenge. I think we can get under 50 the reefer It's possible. Um So, yeah, like this is kind of how all of that works out And as you can see like by the way, you mentioned maggot kin you talked about the cost. I like I agree with you That's why it's up here You know it's out of the out of the notice how it's kind of overlapping with slaves Which to me was kind of the best of the moderate group Because I kind of went back and forth there, right? I agree with that Yeah, and so I tried to really kind of visually graph this out Just uh, just to give people an idea of kind of how I saw these things Um as far as cost goes Um, because again, you know, it's like things like gits Coming down here lower in the cost and it's not as hard to play as some of these other things, right? But again, I'm taking gits as a whole If you as you mentioned if we said, okay, we're just gonna count the You know the maws of jorke, then it would scoot this way pretty hard, right? Yeah So I think it's good Uh, there you go. That's my little visual. I'll try to save this I'll try to remember to save this into a picture and tweet this out tomorrow So that people can have it and arc you over it and tell me what you think I look forward to seeing the conversation. Uh, if you're not already following me on twitter It's at warhammer weekly. It's super easy. Check it out. It's in the description Um, and then you can join in the the fun in the conversation Uh Tom anything we didn't cover this brings us to the end good stuff. No, no, I think that uh, I think we've hit everything, right? Uh Well, yeah, so it said I don't know how you can call cities pricey when it's the most proxy third party friendly army or secondhand army Yeah, that's why it's not as high up. I mean it's it's okay here Again, I'm assuming you're mostly like to do this. I had to kind to do this chart. I had to kind of assume you're buying gw stuff Right, you know now you're right that there is a pretty solid proliferation of like second hand market So, you know, maybe cities should be coming down like a little like maybe they should be more down here I because that's still gw models. It's on ebay That's fair Like I I get I mean at that point you could be like I I'll buy a 3d printer and just print all my models Sure, you know like it's it's tough Um leech in the first prince not a real army doesn't should not those words should never be uttered to a new player ever right, right just Never shut your mouth. No, you do not explain that that army exists It should not exist for a new player in their their mental landscape So let me get this straight For demons Yeah, three of the four armies are already difficult right and you and you want and and and the question is Where does the army fit that takes three of the four of those Smashes them all together doesn't have any single book or anything to reference it other than and it's a mythical entry in some narrative book That doesn't have the core rules for that army, right? Is that what we're talking about? Yes. No, definitely Yeah, yeah, that's that's not on the page. That's it wasn't even on the bad page and there are reasons for that. Yeah Yeah, coach said if we're talking new players, would you be considering third party or 3d printing or secondhand? Probably like it's tough You know, it's it's tough to say what people's tolerance depends on where you're playing as well Yeah, in the states you can get away with it, but in the uk from what i've heard like Uh third party models are less tolerated Yeah, I you know, I don't know it's like it's gonna a lot of these things as time goes on Frankly, almost all these armies now have 3d printing options. So it would probably affect everything evenly like You can find 3d printed versions of almost everything that is made in a warhammer army now because people know there's money in creating stl files of you know not scaven or not vampires or not Bless your courts. Bless your courts. Yeah, exactly So it if anything it would have just a universal depression on the cost right, right um Now the availability in the second hand market that's going to be a lot different Right because you know very new armies that have just a lot of new scopes Are going to be much less available on the second hand market than something with yeah, like lumenath or something, right? Yeah, so that that could have some actual real differences there And i'm not sure how I'd factor that in Yep, okay Sounds like a different show Yeah, indeed that that would be an interesting show like availability on the second hand market other places to get your figs That's probably what we do. Yeah Don't buy new why wouldn't that be a fun topic? All right. Well at any rate. Thank you all out there for watching I hope this is helpful if you're a new person who's made it all the way here. Hey awesome I hope this helped um if you're out there watching and you have new players in your group or something like that Who's thinking about getting into it, you know share this with them We wanted to make this a resource that hopefully explains kind of the different armies and how easy they already get into So they can set that in their heads So I hope this was helpful as a as a sort of resource for everybody and for all of you. I thought I hope it was at least fun Uh Don't forget hit like subscribe. Help us get to the very important milestone that's coming up on the channel Uh, and uh, as always I thank you very much for watching And we'll see you next wednesday