All right. Good morning, Melinda. How are you doing today? Good morning, Chris. I'm great. How are you? I am amazing. I'm so glad we finally got to link up and discuss your awesome new book coming out. So, so real quick, for you as well as the audience, like, and, and I'm sure you have this experience too, as a mother, my son, like, I remember just, you know, questions going through my mind or other parents or other people, because I was one of the first people in my friend group to have a kid.  Or what if he has a different, like, political ideology than you do? Or what if, you know, this, what if that?  So when I saw the title of your book, how to raise kids who aren't assholes, I was like, well, I need this. And it was phenomenal. So, so tell us what inspired you to write this book. Yes, great question. And thank you so much for having me. So I around 2018, I was getting increasingly frustrated and worried about all of the bad behavior I was seeing around me among politics and political figures. And it was actually right around the time of the Kavanaugh hearings. And I, oh boy, and I think Trump had just gone on national TV and he was mocking Christine Blasey Ford. And, and I was, I was just, and I was thinking about the fact that that my kids, I mean, we didn't have them watching a lot of news on TV or anything, but at the same time, you know, they were probably being exposed to some of this, they were probably hearing at school, some of what Trump was doing and saying. And I just, I started thinking, you know, gosh, more than anything else, what I want is to make sure my kids do not grow up to be assholes, basically, like, do not grow up to be Donald Trump. And, and I started thinking about it. And I, I realized, you know, there might be some interesting research on this, I hadn't really looked into it. I'm a science journalist, and I write, I have written a lot about parenting in the past, but, but I hadn't really looked specifically into, you know, what do we know about what parenting practices shape kids character and values. And I started looking into it and realized there's all sorts of great research, a lot of it hadn't been translated into a lay audience. And, and then I was talking to other parents too, and realizing they were having the same realization that like more than anything else, they just wanted their kids to not grow up to be assholes. And so that was it. Like one night, actually, I just had it just actually the title of the book popped into my head. I was out to dinner with my husband. And I was kind of like thinking and it was right around the cabinet hearings, and I was kind of bummed out. And I was like, Oh, and then I just blurted out, I think I should write a book called how to raise kids who aren't assholes. And my husband looked at me and he was like, that's it. That's your book, because I've been wanting to write a book for a long time. And I was like, Oh my God, and the next morning I emailed my agent and was like, I think I have my book. Nice. How long, how long were you working on it? How long did it all take to come together? Yeah, it took a while. Well, so that was in October of 2018, when I had the idea for the book. And then it took a while, you know, it took like maybe four months to actually sell the book to get a book proposal together and sell it to a publisher. And then I gosh, that yeah, that happened around like March of 2019, I guess. And then I spent a year writing it. I actually turned in the book on March 1, 2020, right before the pandemic hit, which thank goodness, because if I hadn't, and I had, if I had had to have been working on it during the pandemic, I don't know that I would have finished it ever. So thank goodness. And then they kind of held it for a while throughout the pandemic, because books were just not selling and they, they said, oh really? I don't think more people were reading during the pandemic. No, I know, I think, you know, I think there were a lot of people who were reading more, but for whatever reason, I was hearing that a lot of books just, they weren't selling very well. And of course, they couldn't do like book tours and stuff, although you still can't really do book tours. So they just held on to it till now. So that was the process. Yeah. So, so one of the things that I think it was even in the intro of the book.  And it's something I think about all the time about like, who am I to write about parenting, give other people advice? So how, how do your kids, by the way? My son is 10 and my daughter's seven. Oh, okay. So our kids aren't too far apart. So my son, I only have one, but my son is 12, right? And I look at him and I'm like, this kid's turning out pretty well, right? And I write, you know, and stuff like that.   So, so how did, how did you overcome that hurdle where you're like, you know, me, Melinda, I am the person to write this book. Yes. It was, it was a struggle. Yeah. So for a long time, because I wrote a slate parenting column for a long time, and people would say, why don't you write a parenting book? And I always, I was like, no, I couldn't possibly write a parenting book that feels so like sanctimonious and obnoxious. And I don't know what I'm doing half the time.  And I was thinking about just how important this was for me to, to know how to raise my own kids. I, like, I felt this really, I've just felt the desire to dig into the research myself, like for myself. And I thought about it. And I, and I, and talking with other parents, I was like, if I base the book on research and not my own ideas and opinions, you know, if I really grounded in research and I'm good at, I know that's something I can do as a science journalist. I can read research and I can digest it and I can translate it. And so if I grounded it in research, I felt like, okay, that puts me on firmer ground. And also, just it just felt really pressing. Like it wasn't, this wasn't just like some parenting book saying like how to help your kids succeed. It felt like a book that could actually like make the world a better place in some way. If enough, if enough people read it. And so then it just, it felt important. And it felt like, okay, this is, I can overcome this, this discomfort I have and do this because I think, I think it will do some good. I hope I don't know. But like that was kind of what got me over it was like, okay, this is important enough that I, that I can do this. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I know you know this because I've seen the praises of this book all over Twitter and stuff like that. But like, like work that you do in other science journalists, like, I think it's so important because I am a huge nerd like I'm a college dropout who just happens to be really interested in psychology and science and philosophy and stuff. And, and I'm like, we need this to be more accessible to people. And that's something, you know, you did a wonderful job with is just breaking down the science.  I think you did a great job like achieving that goal where it didn't seem like you were talking at them and you shared, you shared enough personal experience with your own children and you like related it to the studies and talked about what you've noticed and seen improvements and things that you've tried and everything. So I think, I think that was mission accomplished. But since you've been writing, like, because you've been doing these in articles, I'm curious, have you, have you had any parents like email you or reach out and like freak out like because of what you wrote or what the science says or, or anything like that? Uh, you know, actually in the past week or so, so an excerpt, an adapted excerpt of my book, ran in the New York Times this weekend, um, all about talking to kids about race and why it's really important to talk to kids about race. And this is such an incendiary topic right now. Oh, yeah. Critical race theory that I have definitely gotten several emails over the last like 72 hours from, no, I don't even know if they're parents, but they're very angry that I suggest that it's important to talk to kids about race. And I think that's just because it's caught up in this. Well, actually, I also know that the Fox News, um, ran a piece about my piece, you know, saying, can you believe this New York Times writer said this? And so that, of course, got all the trolls very excited. And so, yes, I, I've definitely gotten emails like that that are like this, what you're saying is ridiculous and it's going to harm your children and they're going to be ashamed for the rest of their lives that they're white and all this stuff. And, um, but other than that, no, I haven't gotten a lot. I'm, you know, but the book hasn't come out yet officially until tomorrow. So, so, or, you know, I don't know when this will air, but when we've recorded this, it won't, it's not out yet. So I might get some angry emails. I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. No, that, that's interesting. And I, I can go on about that forever. Something as, as an avid reader and just book addict, nothing drives me nuts more than people who hold these very strong opinions about books or excerpts or, you know, like you wrote an article just kind of like, you know, promoting the book and saying, Hey, here's something that we talk about. And you have an entire chapter on it plus other chapters that build up to it. So yeah, I just wish I can grab people and say, like, you're not allowed to say anything until you read the actual book. You know what I mean? But yeah, let's, let's talk about that for a minute. I'm curious what your thoughts are.  And it's something that I look at and, you know, I, I've seen just, you know, especially through what happened in 2020, like I, I come from a very privileged position. Could you look at me? I've recently had people say I look like Middle Eastern or something like that, but I'm half black, half Italian, right? And so, but compared to an entire half of my family, I haven't had the experiences they have, right?  So like, I think about this and obviously he interacts with our family. So, you know, I, my experience is different. His experience is different because we've, we've been around as part of our family. So in the chapter, like, can you kind of discuss, like, you know, how, how we talk to kids about race and even, even these incoming criticisms? Like, I read your book and I don't think you're trying to shame kids from being white, you know, but what, how do we talk to kids about race? What's, what's the research say? Yeah, that's a great question. So my chapter on race, I really, it was in a way it was addressed mostly to white parents, to be honest. And I think I said that at the outset of the chapter because I think, A, I'm white and I don't have the, you know, lived experience of people of color and how, and I don't feel comfortable telling parents of color, like what they should be doing. So I was mostly writing to white parents also because they have the most to learn and then they kind of get the most wrong. I mean, that's not, I don't like to say wrong, but they have a lot to learn when it comes to talking to kids about race because what the research, so first, the research that has sort of observed parents and tried to understand like how, how white parents tend to interact with their kids about race shows that essentially white parents just don't talk about it. There's this, there's this approach that they tend to use called color blind parenting, which is kind of based on the idea that if we don't talk to our kids about race, maybe they won't see it, they won't notice it, they won't make a big deal of it.  And that kind of makes sense on some level like, okay, yeah, maybe they just won't notice it, but the research very clearly shows that kids even as young as babies do see skin color, they see race, they notice it. So there's been, there was a study using babies three months old and it, they observed like what pictures of like they gave these babies pictures of different people of different skin colors and they observed that the babies liked looking at the faces of people who shared their caregivers skin color. And so they see it, they notice it from a young age. And so that idea that if we don't talk about race, kids won't notice it, that's not true. But then the other problem is if, if kids see race, but their parents aren't talking to them about it, kids are like little detectives and they're always looking out in the world to see what, to figure out what matters. So they are trying to figure out, you know, what social categories matter, what, you know, what are the big things in the world that they should be paying attention to. And they notice very quickly that there is a very salient racial hierarchy in our society.  And if nobody is there to explain what's at the root of this hierarchy and, you know, to say this is really the result of, you know, so many years of systemic racism, then the kids will make, will come to their own conclusions basically. And the simplest conclusion you can make, if you look at this hierarchy, the simplest conclusion that you can make if you're a kid is, well, maybe white people are just better in some way. Maybe they're smarter. Maybe that's why they, you know, all of the presidents, except for one, have been white. They're just like better people. And so they kind of come to these racist conclusions based on what they're seeing around them unless we have adults they're challenging that conclusion and saying and explaining why the world looks the way it does. And so that is, that's why it's really important to be talking to kids about race. Now, one of the, I think one of the misunderstandings that some people have when they, like for instance, read my New York Times article is they think that, you know, we need to be talking with kids every second of every day about race and hitting them over the head with it and saying, like, you're racist to your children. That's not what this is about, but it's, it's more like when you have opportunities and there are opportunities all the time if you're actually paying attention to it when you're watching TV shows with your kids and you see something like, for instance, I feel like so many shows, maybe it's getting better, but so many shows used to have the bad guy, have darker skin and like a foreign accent, you know, and the good guys are all white. And so you can see stuff like this playing out in TV shows and pause the show and say, gosh, what do you think that's all about and what's that and talk to your kids about. So we should be, you know, using opportunities that arise to have conversations and to help our kids notice racism when they see it and to, you know, to also just explain like, why are there differences in skin color and talk about the fact, you know, that there's, there's a chemical called melanin and people have different amounts depending on where their ancestors lived and just like making it something that's not a taboo scary topic and that also contextualizes, you know, what, why the world looks the way it does. Yeah, no, I, absolutely. And it, it just, it drives me absolutely insane, like, weird side topics. So I, I often look at my own experience, right? And it just feels, it feels like so many people are just in denial. So just real quick, Chris is a kid's story, right? I had an alcoholic mom, dad raising me by himself. He worked all the time. TV, movies, they raised me, right? And, and movies, I used to love rom-coms. I don't get to watch them as much because my girlfriend's not a huge fan of them. But anyways, I used to love rom-coms. It gave me an expectation of what love and relationships were like, right? Like, you know, and, and watching them as an adult who's been through, who's been through therapy, I look at it and I'm just like, huh, that's not healthy. This isn't healthy. How'd you fall in love with somebody in a day before even knowing anything? You know, just all these things, right?  But anyways, those kind of molded me with these expectations. So when you talk about these subtle things in TV shows, right? And I'm not sure like the data on like, you know, darker skin and like accents and stuff like that. But, but like, we have to admit that there are these little things that mold us or even like you're talking about this, this kind of color blindness and kids come into their own conclusion. I love my son more than anything. I looked over because he's sleeping in the next room over there. But kids are kind of dumb, not their fault, right? They just have a lack of development. You do an excellent job in the, in the book too, explaining how the prefrontal cortex takes quite some time to develop. So they have very little impulse control and they will say some embarrassing stuff in public. So we want to have these conversations but what I want to ask you next is like, why not even why? Because I think I know why, but I want to know your thoughts or how you've even been doing it is getting through these uncomfortable conversations like, girl, you talk about not only race, but sexism and then you finish it all up with all the sex talk and stuff like that. And like, yeah. So how, how can us parents overcome that, that awkwardness and, and all that? What do you, do you psych yourself up? Do you like do jumping back to your room before you have one of these talks or what happens? Oh gosh, yeah. It's so true. I mean, I feel like one of the big themes in my book is we should be having these really awkward difficult conversations about these topics that we don't want to talk about with our kids. Like we should be doing more of it but you're right. It's so hard because I think too, like we've often been raised in families by parents who didn't want to talk about these things with us. So like from a young age, we've kind of like just absorbed this idea that these are, these are, these are conversations we don't have with our, with kids. But yeah, it's really, really hard. And I have found that it just gets easier, like the more I do it. And so I just try to kind of bring things up regularly because the more I do, like the, the easier it feels. I don't know, it's just like, it's just like, I mean, I know it's a cliche, like practice makes perfect. And there's no such thing as having like a perfect conversation with your kids. But when I first started talking about race, like I, in my book, I talked about how my daughter saw a picture in the newspaper that was related to George Floyd's death and she asked me about it. And I was like, oh boy, like where do I start? How do I even have this conversation? And I know I kind of fumbled my way through it. And I tried my best to explain, but then, you know, that initial conversation was certainly not complete. And I fumbled my, you know, I made mistakes. And then like a few, but what was interesting was this like planted a seed in her. And then like the next day she started, she asked me a question about it again. And so she was kind of ruminating on it. And then when she asked the next question, I'd had a little time to think more about what I'd said to her and how I might be able to frame things even better. And so then I was more ready that second time. And then, you know, kind of, we had like a back and forth for weeks, maybe months even about this, these issues. And I found that, but also, you know, there are really great books for talking to kids about these issues if like you really kind of don't know where to start. A great place is with, you know, children's books that you can read with your kids or books that, you know, if your kids are older that they can read on their own with like with sex because that is often really like you don't even know where to start. Robi Harris is an author. She's written a series of books for kids of different ages that talk all about like body parts and sex and consent and relationships. And they're really, really helpful because if nothing else, you can just like sit down and start reading it with your kid. And then that leads to, you know, that gives you the language and the framing. And then that, but you know, you can then with that, with that sort of like framework, it makes it a little easier to have the conversations. So, and there's great books about talking to kids about race and and like gender issues, sexism, gender stereotypes. That's, that's also just, it's not a bad thing to rely on books. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I can't remember which book it was I was reading. It was, I might have been even clean by David Sheff and that's all about just like addiction and everything like that. But I, the number one lesson I learned, and this was when my son was like four or five. It was not long after I got sober. It was just to have regular conversations with your kids. Like it, I feel like, aside from my kid not being an asshole, if my son knows he could talk to me about literally anything, I think I, I've done a half decent job, but like I've, I've had a lot of like cognitive psychologist on here. I've had, you know, conspiracy debunkers and everything and something I'm really trying to do with my son is just teaching him how to ask questions and think like, and you talk about this in the book, like if, if my son is, is watching something and it's just all men, I want him to ask why, like why is it all men, right? And if it's all, you know, white men ask why, if it's all feet, if it's all women, I want him to ask why, like no discrimination. I don't care what it, if it's all dogs, ask why, you know what I mean? And what I've noticed and kind of like, I could definitely relate to your experience where you kind of planted that seed with your daughter and their, their wheels get turning. And that's what I've noticed with my son is that he starts to notice stuff and now that he knows that that line of communication is open, he'll come back and tell me what he noticed and we'll have a conversation and it gets easier. Now I'll tell you this, the sex thing has not gotten easier yet. He's, he's 12 and his first year of middle school was in the pandemic. So now he's going into middle school and I think back to my middle school and I was just like, oh God, like what is, what is going to happen? But let's, let's discuss that for a minute.  Yes, that's right. So misogyny and sexism is something that you talk about in there. And you know, my, my son's a mama's boy so I think he's like pretty decent and he's, he's very polite and everything like that. And you know, something that you just mentioned it's something that you've discussed in the book is consent, right? And you know, I hear just horror stories about, you know, colleges and everything and like, I'm, I'm curious if you get concerned about that too and this, this, you know, this is a difficult nuance conversation but are you concerned about that kind of consent and perception thing with young men right? Like, how do we talk to them about that? How do they, how do they make sure without, I don't know, quote unquote, ruining the mood when they get to that age and everything like that? Like, what are the best ways to kind of talk about this and warning signs and of like, Hey, maybe this is a time for you to bounce and get out of there and, and last thing I'll mention, last thing I'll mention, totally, totally curve, total curve ball. I dated a lot of crazy women in my days too.  So, right? What do we do? Yeah, it's so hard. I, you know, I feel like it is important to have these kinds of explicit conversations with kids about, you know, if, if you're dancing with a girl or you walk her home, that doesn't mean that you're entitled to anything else. Like those are really important, but I also think there's a lot of seeds like we can plant that are related to that issue. When kids are younger, because, you know, my kid is 10 and he's not even thinking about kissing girls yet. So, it would be really hard for me to say, like, so, you know, he doesn't understand what, I feel like he's not even really able to understand what I would mean if I was trying to explain, like, I mean, I guess I could talk about like, you can't, you know, don't think that you can touch a girl or kiss her. That, I could certainly say that. But I also just like regularly am talking about gender stereotypes with my kids. So I think a lot of, a lot of the problems with boys feeling men, sometimes feeling entitled to women in their bodies, it comes from the way that we differentiate women and men and boys and girls from a very young age. Like, so, when we, I'm just trying to think about how to like, even start this, it can start. So, from the time, kids are babies, right? We are sending messages that boys and girls are very different. And so we are, you know, buying different toys for boys and buying different toys for girls and different clothes and, and a lot of the time with girls too, I noticed this, I was visiting my parents last week and I was very, I was paying attention to the kinds of things they talked about with my son versus my daughter. And it's, it's really interesting because they, they would talk about appearance with my daughter a lot. They would comment on how pretty she looked or on her outfit or on, you know, what her hair looked like all the time and never did that with my son and with him, they would talk to him about sports and they would talk to him about math and they would talk to him about like school and, and so these things, these conversations that we're having with boys and girls from a young age are sending these messages that, you know, boys and girls are very different. And that doesn't seem like a huge problem in and of itself but again, going back to what I was saying earlier about like kids being detectives, they also noticed this hierarchy with boys and girls, like with men and women, they noticed again that there's been no woman president and they've, they noticed that men tend to have, you know, higher profile jobs than women and they start to make these, these again, these conclusions about like, maybe men or smarter or better. And so you're probably wondering, how does this relate to sex and consent? Well, what the research suggests is that ultimately these beliefs in gender stereotypes, these ideas that, you know, girls should look nice and their appearance matters a lot and boys are, you know, smart and capable and powerful. Those kind of, when kids get to be around 10, 12, these ideas start to become more sexualized and the research suggests that boys start to sort of expect that girls are kind of there to look pretty and girls start to think this too, like their job is to look pretty and be like sex objects and that their bodies are almost there for the taking for boys, like they start to create these ideas about sex that are rooted in these gender stereotypes ultimately. And the research shows that boys who believe in all sorts of gender stereotypes, not just sexualized ones, but just gender stereotypes in general, they are more likely than other boys to make sexual comments about women to grab girls' bodies to and to to perpetrate sexual assault.  So I think, yes, we have, we need to have these explicit conversations with boys about, you know, the fact that they aren't entitled to do any, you know, and that consent in one situation doesn't necessarily imply consent in another situation or later or another time. We need to have those explicit conversations, but there's a lot we can be doing all along the way too as we raise them to, you know, kind of challenge gender stereotypes and make sure that, you know, we try not to differentiate boys and girls too much. That's a really long answer. No, no. I loved it. And yeah, and I think about your book, like, I know you read, you read my review of the book, like, the only critique I had, which wasn't even really a critique because it all comes together so well, like a beautiful recipe, right?  And I'm always, you know, making videos and writing books about mental health and stuff like that, but it all comes together. And, and as you were talking, I was thinking about it too, like, you, you have a whole chapter on, you know, how to raise kids who aren't selfish, right? And, and it feels like, for example, if I'm raising my kid, you know, to be polite and always ask permission and to not just take things without asking, if that's part of his foundation, I don't see him just randomly being with a girl and saying, you're my object, I could take that because he's learned to teach people equally. So it all kind of like blends in together and we form these good habits in all situations. So that way, when they, when it translates over, and that's kind of what it feels like, right? So when I think about that, like, I've never seen my kid just like, well, not in recent years, but like, snatch something from someone else. So I'm pretty sure, you know, when he gets into those situations, he'll be asking and, and stuff like that. But to another point that you brought up, like, I think that's a, you know, that's a, that's a whole nother episode, but like, consent in one situation isn't consent in another and stuff like that. And something I've done, which I don't know if you do this, but we, you know, we watch shows and movies and stuff like that. And I'll have conversations with them about the characters and what they did and do you think this was right or do you think this was wrong? And, and I think that's another way to kind of easily have these conversations. I can't remember if you touched on anything like that in the book, but is that something you've done or like have, have your kids like, you know, kind of get into the mind of the characters and what they might be thinking and all that kind of stuff? Yes, absolutely. That's a, it's a really good point. We do this a lot and we do it with books too. It's funny because my daughter now is very, she notices like anything sexist in any like book or any show and she wants to talk to me about it. She's like, so we were reading when we were visiting my parents we were reading Grimm's fairy, yeah, Grimm's fairy tales, which are so dark, by the way, they're like, like the actual original Grimm's fairy tales and there were all sorts of ones where like the the husband, you know, orders his wife around and she, every time, you know, something like that happened, she'd be like, well, that's, that, that's not right. That's sexist and we would talk about it and talk about like what it was, what about it was sexist and stuff. And yes, TV shows, I feel like any, any kind of movie that involves like high schoolers often has these often really disturbing messages about like consent and relationships that you can talk about with kids. I was, I went through a phase like during the pandemic when we couldn't leave our house I started showing the kids movies that I remember being watching when I was a kid, like in a movie from the 80s and oh my god, some of them are so disturbing though, like we watched Adventures in Babysitting. I don't know if you know that movie. Oh my god, I wonder to watch that with him. Okay, well, there's a lot to talk about in that movie because I, of course, had forgotten about all of this but the, there's two like teenage boys in the movie and Elizabeth's shoe is the babysitter and so, you know, Elizabeth's shoe is attractive and these boys are constantly like doing very, they're harassing her, they're making sexual comments at one point another character falls asleep a girl, a teenage girl falls asleep in a car and the one of the boys starts unbuttoning her blouse. It's like basically the implication is he was gonna assault her while she was sleeping and then another, the other character says like stop doing that but it was just, I mean, there were all sorts of things that it was normalizing that was really unpleasant and so shows, yeah, movies like that you can pause and be like, wow, what do you think about that? Like what just happened there? Do you think that's okay and why or why not and have these conversations? Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely been one of the benefits of the pandemic is, you know, my son and I used to go to the movies all the time, like all the time and now everything streaming and everything like that but we can pause and have conversations and stuff and you know, even when we're watching like scary movies where they just do really dumb stuff like we'll pause and just talk about the ridiculous decisions they've made you know, because we're talking about the decision-making process and all that and something that I'm curious your thoughts about so we're talking about, you know, like stuff like in the media or on TV and shows and stuff like that and this kind of leads into just like this philosophy I have which I've eased up a bit on it but I personally, I kind of blame everything on the parents if a kid grows up to be just an asshole right? I blame the parents right and and I don't know I'm a weirdo like I know all of like the trendy YouTubers I know everything there is to know about like Logan Paul and all these other weird things happening and stuff and something I've realized and I'm sure you have through your research and stuff like a lot of parents don't know they don't know what's going on on YouTube they don't know what's going on on TikTok they don't they just don't know and sometimes I'll watch just dumb stuff that I think's ridiculous but I feel it's important to know what they're watching and like you know and then we want to point the finger at the media or the YouTubers and everything but I always bring it back to the parents so I don't know like I would love for another parent to tell me if I'm just insane and know you make parents too responsible like how much responsibility is there on TV and YouTubers and what's in the media like you know you're very active in this thing and I try to be too but where's that balance or are you like me and you think everything's the parents fault if a kid grows up to be a serial killer is it the parents fault right right yeah yeah you know it's such a good question and I certainly wrestled with this like throughout writing the book because yeah because you know the title of the book implies that parents are responsible you know parents can control basically like what their kids turn out to be that it's really up to the parents to not raise assholes but I mean I do think and I make the point in the book of course there's so many things that shape like who a child becomes that are like for instance we don't we're not there when they're at school and they're experiencing all sorts of things at school that are you know all those experiences are going to shape like you know who they become and what's and how they feel and how they see the world and certainly like what they see on TV and of course you know kids have different like brains and and neurotransmitters can be very different and balances will certainly shape behavior and genetics and all of these things certainly like play a role in who our kids become but but there is there is research suggesting that parents do they play a very important role and they do make a difference and that's true even like when kids are teenagers and we think that they're not paying attention to us at all anymore and it's all their friends who are shaping everything right parents still still make a difference but you know and to your point though I think that it also how much of a difference parents make does depend on like how often we have these conversations like if if we are not talking to kids about what they're seeing on the media and they're seeing all sorts of really bad examples you know playing out and they're seeing all sorts of things in TV shows that are yeah that are just sending like dangerous messages about consent or whatnot you know if we don't challenge those then I think that the media has a stronger impact on kids that if we were to you know say explain that the media sometimes portrays things in a way that you know isn't really right and that and I think when we have those conversations we give them the tools to kind of contextualize what they're seeing and realize that that they shouldn't trust everything they're seeing is the way the world should be or the way the world really is that I think maybe minimize like decreases the influence that the media will have on them so you know I think it depends it's it's a harder question to answer and I could not find like simple answer it's it's definitely a difficult balance because something that you you talk about in the book too a bit is you know there's kind of like helicopter parenting versus the free range parenting and stuff like that and and it is a balance because nobody as a kid wants their parents like all up in their business checking everything and all that stuff but we still need to monitor in a way so like every now and then you know because my son will be in his room who watches YouTube he plays video games and I'll I'll just like kind of check in on him every now and then because he's gotten to age where he's very independent like when kids are babies you're like oh I can't wait for them to be more independent so you know and then they start getting more independent you're like dang I'm just hanging out but anyways so I go in there and I'll check and stuff and like and yeah it's just it's it's that balance of having conversations and we don't even have enough time to dive into it too but I think you you know what you said can kind of you know be applied to this too when it comes to teachers and schools right like I have I have a lot of friends who are teachers here in Las Vegas and things like that and I think back to my schooling and I think about this and what what teachers are required to do and required to teach and you know there's so much of the we especially saw this conversation come up during the pandemic teachers are looked at as you know babysitters and you know and the way the way I personally see it is you know they're there to educate my son about you know mass science biology all that regular stuff and then it's my responsibility to kind of teach him about you know his mental health and you know personal interactions even though they learn that kind of stuff through school but there's that balance too between what the school does and what parents do so here's something we talked about it briefly in DM but I just want to talk about it for a minute you you have a whole chapter on screen time and everything like that so I want to talk a little bit about Gene Twangy's research so those who aren't familiar with Gene Twangy and Yuga Pauli explain some of her work a little bit better than me but there's this there's this you know our kids are being being raised to be little narcissists and screens are destroying them and depression rates are super high and addiction and suicide and something I've noticed just through mental health research is that whatever your thing is you'll blame it on that right like oh screens are there so but if your thing's like dieting you'll be like oh fast food and sugar that's what's making kids depressing you know suicidal but anyways she uh and a lot of people point to a research and something I mentioned to you you know in in private was like it seems like a lot of confirmation by us like it's 2021 now screens have been around for a while and it feels like we want something to blame and I don't know if it's to like sharp responsibility from ourselves but can you you have a whole chapter on it and people need to get the book but can you talk a little bit about what's the research say about screens and screen time and all that yeah sure I think it's it's such an important topic and parents have I was out to dinner with friends last night and that was like the one thing they asked me they were like talk to me about what you say about so everybody and especially after the pandemic everybody has been relying on screens so much because you know we have to be working while our kids are at home with us so yeah um I was I was pleasantly surprised with what the research said about screens because I was very nervous like am I ruining my kids by letting them you know watch their iPads a lot and and so I dug into the research and it's really I mean for what for one thing it is really hard to interpret because it's you know there there's so many different ways that kids use screens there's they could be watching shows they could be making videos they could be creating things and being created they could be watching something violent or they could be watching nature documentaries and so to lump it all together and say like what just what do screens do to kids doesn't really help us because there's so many different ways kids can use screens but nevertheless researchers have tried to sort of look at the relationship between how much kids use screens and what their well-being is their risk for you know ADHD and depression and anxiety and what they have found really is that there's not a strong relationship between the two kids who use screens more really don't seem to be a lot more at risk for things like depression, anxiety and other other issues that relate to their well-being and and so that's really reassuring I mean we need better research and it would be better if it was more granular and we could look at like the effects of you know specific things on well-being and whatnot but if you look at it in the whole there's there's not a lot there's really no evidence that suggests that we should be terrified that screens are ruining our children there really isn't and yet yes there's a lot if you just google screens and kids and you see so much alarmist stuff out there and Jean Twengey her research is often cited in these pieces that are very alarmist and even she wrote a piece for the Atlantic that was wildly popular I can't remember how many years ago our smartphones ruining a generation I think was the title or something like that but it's really if you dig into it the the claims that she makes don't seem supported by good research I mean one of the things I remember she was looking at like the year in which half of the population started owning smartphones and she said like that was the year when kids well-being started dropping so therefore it must be that phones are causing this and then she's like no we don't know that there's so many things going on that could be that could be responsible for this and so yeah I just I don't think we need to be totally freaking out about screens ruining our kids and also just I mean the other big take them from that chapter that I I got and this is what you were basically saying that you do with your kids like yes it's good to sort of keep track of what your kids are doing of course it's good to keep track of what your kids are doing online but also like have conversations and use media in a way with them like if they're interested in a new app or something like explore it with them and learn with them because all of those conversations you're having as you're doing the research together and you're learning how it works like you're passing along your values and you're passing along you know your concerns through those conversations and the research also just really shows that like having that sort of mentorship relationship with kids and screens and using screens with your kids leads to much better outcomes kids are less likely to you know be accessing porn they're less likely to to like bully cyber bully when parents and kids are using media together and like learning about it together so again it comes down to like engaging with your kids on these topics that maybe you think you shouldn't you know that are hard to engage with your kids on but it really makes a difference yeah it's you know what I was just saying it's so hard not to brag about your kids because I don't want to be that parent but my my son made the decision to delete TikTok right he just saw he just saw some of the stuff you know he was on it for a while and we'd send each other funny videos and stuff like that but he saw some things that he didn't like and you know comments and stuff and and he deleted it and I'm like and he's only 12 and I'm like wow you know and and yeah I love that you brought up just like the fact that screens are used for so many different things like imagine like I can't imagine in 2019 being a parent that was like screens of the devil go outside and play don't touch screens right pandemic hits like here in Las Vegas school shipped out like laptops or like little Chromebooks and stuff like that and then I couldn't imagine my kid getting a computer that he doesn't know how to use right so I feel like there's also this this issue where we don't realize how big of a part technology has become in our lives I remember I think it was eighth seventh or eighth grade I took a typing class like it was just like an elective in middle school and I swear to God it was one of the most important classes of my life because now I type like when I write like blogs or you know when I'm working on a book I'm like my fingers are on the home row keys and stuff like that I'm like imagine if I never learned that right and because I was like a computer nerd and learned how all these different programs work like I've been able to get jobs because they're like are you familiar with this and it's like yeah just because I like to research and play around with things so it depends on what the kids are using it for but kind of my last thing on that too is I think you know me as a parent what I do is it's like what who do I want my kid to be what kind of values and things like that and there's times when I'm like hey you know Dylan do you want to like watch a movie or do you want to go to this place or whatever he's like no I'm playing you know not right now can we go in like 30 minutes I'm playing with my friends and I'm like okay so he's having social time with his friends during a pandemic and I was an introvert who grew up as a gamer when the internet first came on that's how I made 99% of my relationships that's how I met you and we're having this fantastic conversation so I've never been able to look at that and just be like yep screens are terrible and you know because for an introvert like me the internet just opened me up to a whole new world you know so yeah I think it's very contextual and like you and like you said to like the when smartphones were released and stuff like that have you ever seen you're a science writer have you ever come across like there might be more than one website where it shows just like the most ridiculous correlations like yes yeah yeah those are so great and uh yeah I had I had like the author Stuart Richie on the podcast and he wrote science fictions and stuff have you read that no I haven't no fantastic but but yeah I love reading books about how people manipulate data or do correlations and stuff but it helps me look at it better because I don't want to fall into confirmation bias where I'm just like I believe this now I see this and all that but I have a little a little bit more of your time I wanted to talk about just what I think is some of the most important research is like Carol Dweck's work right around fixed versus growth mindset and you dive deep into this and we could talk about this for hours but can you talk a little bit about how we talk to kids when it comes to praise and effort versus skill or innate intelligence and you know oh you're a little genius or oh you did that on your first try and I think I feel that that's one of the biggest issues and we don't even think about it can you talk a little bit about you know let's dive into like the self-esteem aspect and intelligence and all that what's what's what should we do yeah this is hard because I I struggle with with this myself and I find myself kind of doing the things that Carol Dweck recommends against all the time and actually Carol Dweck also says like she sometimes falls into this fixed mindset which is not the most constructive herself and she's been researching this for like I don't know how many decades but a lot a lot of time and so the idea so there when kids have what's called like a fixed mindset it's this idea that ability and smarts these are all things that kind of are innate and you're born with you're either smart or you're not you're either good at soccer or math or you're not and and this is something that I think a lot of people think about like even as adults you know you hear I hear adults saying all the time well I was just never good at math or whatever but this is kind of a dangerous mindset because it yeah suggests that you can't do anything to change your ability or your skills in a particular area you can't do anything to get smarter but what the research really shows is that like that's not the way that's not how things work if and even with IQ test there's some really interesting studies that suggests that you know kids if they they can have very different results on IQ test depending on how motivated they are during the test and how much effort they put into the test and so there's really interesting research on that that even like IQ isn't fixed it's related to the effort you put into the IQ test so what this comes down to is the way we praise our kids can really shape whether they develop this fixed mindset or whether they develop what's called a growth mindset which is when kids believe that you know that the failure doesn't mean you're not good at something it just means that you're just learning how to do it and you're at the beginning of you know developing your skill and that being challenged and finding something difficult doesn't isn't a reflection of you know how good you are how smart you are but it just means that you know you're learning how to do something you don't know you know you haven't mastered it yet and so the way we praise our kids really matters if we praise our kids by saying you're so smart or you're so good at math or you're so good at soccer it kind of it fosters this fixed mindset where they believe like I can't do anything to change who I am if we instead are praising kids for effort and saying wow you know you tried so hard you worked so hard on that and and tying effort to outcome so like if your kid does well on a particular test or in a particular game instead of saying oh you're just naturally good at this you say like that must be because you practiced so much last week you got better and look at now you scored three goals and that's fantastic and you're kind of tying the outcomes to the effort that your child put in then kids develop this growth mindset where they think of they think of their skills as something you know that can grow over time and they just have to work on it and this is both great for fostering motivation and resilience and it's also really important for self-esteem because kids who are praised for effort they they tend to believe like that they are they have more self worth they can do more you know they as long as they just work hard on something and really keep trying they'll get better and better and so it's really interesting like it ties to both how much kids are willing to how much effort they're willing to put into their schoolwork and their hobbies and all these things but also like their their sense of self-worth goes up if you praise more for effort than for ability in smarts yeah and and you know it's crazy let me tell you something crazy Melinda you know what I realized is that this is something that works on adults too and how we talk to ourselves you know what I mean like we need to remember that we can get better at something and you know for example like I read a ton and there's topics that I don't know that much about but I'm like well I'll read five books on it and then I'll probably know a little bit more about it you know like and it was it was really important to me fun fact is one of the reasons this is called the rewired soul it was originally called a rewire is because I learned about neuroplasticity right because in my addiction and a lot of addicts and you know a lot of people with depression and things like that struggle with this things are never going to get better things are never going to get changed this is this is who I am and then when I learned the science I'm like oh we can change it takes work it takes effort and that's that's something I've really tried to just pound it to my son I think a great example is um for the last year or two we started cooking together we try to we find different recipes and everything like that and just an example at the top of my head I'm vegetarian he's he eats meat but he eats a lot vegetarian stuff too but we're trying to make this like like orange chicken right? and we keep screwing up the breading so one day I was like listen we're gonna take like two hours we're gonna look up like five different ways to bread these things and we're gonna try them all right and it took time but then we found that one right and we got better at that specific cooking skill you know so that's something I'm really always trying to uh you know talk to them about and let me ask you this have you ever looked into the work or read the books from uh Dr. Richard Wiseman like have you heard of the book The Luck Factor? No okay so check this out you like you mentioned this about your daughter earlier like when you'd like had a conversation with her about like race or sexism and she like brought it up later like I'm always really surprised like what sticks with kids but I was telling my son about this study from The Luck Factor I got really obsessed with this idea of like skill versus luck for a while right and uh they did research on this and in one of the studies they they gave people this like impossible puzzle right and you know they do a little questionnaire to find out do you perceive yourself as lucky or not and what they found was was that the people who perceive themselves as lucky they didn't give up as quickly they tried longer I told my son about this study and he like told his uncle about it he brings it up every now and then but it's one of those things where like they you know he he he realizes now that the harder you try or the longer you put in the effort the more likely you are to get these outcomes that you're looking for and these are things adults we could do in our lives and and everything like that but here's my question for you Melinda okay because I feel honesty there there's there's a tricky balance between honesty and stuff like that right but let's say your son or daughter even though I'm sure they are amazing artists what if one of them just sucked at drawing right and they're like I want to be an artist when I grow up I just want to do this like at what point do we talk to our kids and say and we say maybe this isn't your skill set because we want to keep trying but we don't want to we don't want to over inflate them so have you run into that or what do we do it is it is a balance you're right because there's also a lot of research that I talk about on inflated praise like when we tell our kids that you know like they draw a drawing and it's not great and we nevertheless say like that's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen that's called inflated praise and that's not very good for kids actually the research suggests that especially with kids with low self-esteem for whatever reason if we inflate our praise it's almost like they can see through they're like I don't buy that that's she's not she's lying and and they actually decreases their self-esteem even more so I think we do have to be careful about you know we want to be encouraging and we want to be positive but not like lying to our kids about their abilities either and it is it's so hard I mean my my daughter is seven now and she's always loved drawing but she's not nearly as good at at it as some other kids her age because I've seen you know I've seen their pictures compared to hers and so but she's like it's all she wants to do and she just draws all the time and the thing is and so like I've never said to her you're really not very good at this or anything like that but I've certainly you know I've wondered like how honest I should be but what I've noticed is because she does do it all the time like this is her passion that she has recently gotten much much better at it like I realized like you know she may have started out in a place where she was much much worse and I worried that she would just stay much much worse for ever and ever and ever but it could be also that like there's a certain point in their development where they something clicks and they get better at the thing that you didn't expect so so that makes me think like I'm really glad that I didn't discourage her from continuing to you know follow her passion I mean she's seven so like in a way like doesn't matter if she's not deciding or you know to go to art school at this point or anything like that yeah she might find a new passion next year you know yeah exactly but I also you know I think I think her being able to see that I think she can tell that she's gotten a lot better and a lot of it is because she just stuck with it and kept doing it even though like she started out not being very good and I think that's a really great lesson to her for her to absorb to to see that yes you know she's just gotten so much better and she can compare her drawings and see like she's come so far because she's stuck with it so I think it's really hard I think you do want to be encouraging but you don't want to basically like lie to your kids either you know and I think like if my daughter asked me point blank like am I better drawer than you know this other kid who's clearly a better drawer I probably wouldn't say like yes of course you are I would try to say well you're you know you have some really great skills you can do this really well but like this other person can draw faces maybe a little bit better than you maybe they've practiced a lot on that in particular and so they've gotten really good at it you know I'll still try to frame it in terms of growth mindset like maybe she's just like really practice this a lot and that's so it's like you want to be honest but you still want to be encouraging I think but it's really tricky yeah no and you know I was you know what I was just thinking about Melinda I love I love talking to people and I love these conversations like I like I get to think and reflect on you know this stuff with you know my own son and everything and and yeah and just touch on it goes back to like that growth mindset because you know I've you know the work of like Anders Erickson and stuff like that where you know people you know you know they do deliberate practice and all that and yeah these are things that I because my son he gets really into drawing and he goes through like these phases and stuff but you know he'll he'll see where you know maybe the eyes need improvement so he can just keep practicing that but something else and this is something that I struggled with with my own self esteem that I try to teach my son you know not to do is we compare ourselves to others right and where others are at today rather than where we were at yesterday so like you're talking about with like your daughter like if she's improving dope that's what matters right but these other kids because what was it I think it was uh one of Malcolm Gladwell's books like Outliers or something and that was one of the books that was like open my eyes like oh wait wait they're they're not a natural right like yeah Beethoven or you know Mozart or whatever they were playing four so I think that's another benefit of talking about this like growth mindset and working hard because when you look at other people you realize that they didn't just come out of the womb as an amazing artist like they might just be doing that all day all the time yes so I I have two more questions for you and this is something that I the first one is if I ever decide to you know start doing blogs about parenting or write a book or you know whatever are you ever worried because you you share some stories in this book are you ever worried that your kids are going to grow up and read this book and say what the hell mom what like like there's a like this there's a story in there and I'm just going to give a teaser so everybody buys your book of your son and a friend and an iPad right so are you ever worried that they're going to grow up and be like what you know so yeah no I do I do think about that and you know I it's so hard because I certainly talked to my kids about the book and I asked them their consent to talk about what you know what they've done and who they are and and but yet they're kids so like how much can they really consent how much do they really understand what they're consenting to because they don't really understand what it means so you know I did try to talk with them a lot about about what I was you know hoping to include and I asked them for their consent multiple times and they kept saying yes it's totally fine and I you know I don't know like they could in 10 years be so angry for this and it may well I mean they'll probably be angry at me in 10 years for so many reasons but but I also like I did make the deliberate decision and you know who knows how much this of a difference this makes but their names are not in the book like they're certainly I say my son and my daughter throughout the book of course anybody who knows how to use Google can figure out who they are but I felt like that was at least like one boundary that I didn't want to cross by including their actual names in there but yeah I do worry about this and I I worry that I'm going to regret having included all of this in the book but I also I don't know you know I think about like if the book hadn't had any of my own experience as a parent then also like would any would that be as good of a book would it be as relatable would it be as you know in a way I wanted to share that like as the author of a book about not raising assholes that my kids make mistakes too and I make mistakes and like my kids aren't perfect and this is and that's just the way things are so I kind of I also felt like it was really important to have that there so yeah it's hard though who knows I don't know I might I might regret it yeah no we'll see and I I think so much of parenting is you know because you know even that formula can send changes over time like they you know you kids might hit high school and start dating someone and they're like oh your mom's a writer and read this book and they're like oh what'd you do you know whatever and you know it changes it's like hey we'll cross that bridge when we get there especially with the way kids brains and bodies changes and you know they get crazy during their teenage years and yeah like my kids 12 and I'm like okay I'm like when's it when's it gonna happen when you when does that switch you know going to flip but something that my mom kind of conditioned me for is she's embarrassed me with stories my whole life so if she wrote a book I'd be like well everybody already knows this because my mom tells literally everybody I'll have a brand new girlfriend first thing she says it's just the most embarrassing thing that I won't say publicly but so last and final question so this book when it blows up when it takes off which it's about to do are you gonna write or are you gonna research or have you already started like how to raise teenagers who aren't assholes is this something that's already in the works in your mind have you thought about it because there's some changes and some different topics we got to discuss it's right that there really are yeah I mean I I'm obviously not I don't know what it's like to launch a book because my book is not officially launched but this whole process of writing it I've loved like I've really really enjoyed it and so I absolutely want to write another book I don't know exactly what it's going to be it might well be that issue of like basically how to raise ass kids who aren't assholes when they're older and dealing with all of the issues that happen in the teenagers because I think there are not enough resources I mean there are some great writers in this space but there aren't enough I feel like there could be there could be a lot more books on supporting parents of teenagers because I think it's just such a hard time to be a parent and to know how to how to engage with your kids and how to respond to them so that certainly is one of that is a possibility but you know I'm also like thinking about is there anything else that I would want to write that's a little you know is there a different aspect of parenting or even science because I I write a lot about parenting I haven't in the last 10 years but I also write about science and medicine so I don't know if I might want to like pivot although I kind of I'm really enjoying I'm really enjoying being in the parenting space and I I feel like it's rewarding and and it's helpful to people so I might stay in it yeah and it might well be that you might just have given me my next book idea Chris getting the acknowledgement section but yeah oh yeah that's that's another thing I I loved about your book like when I when I got sober nine years ago and stuff I'm like oh my god you know because my mom was an alcoholic until I was 20 and then like you know there's there's things that you know people in recover we have to keep working on even after we get sober like all our problems and issues just go away so I started reading a ton of books like the books from like when I got into like mindfulness and meditation but like five Daniel Segal books and stuff like that you know on brain development and all these things but anyways I've I've dabbled in a couple other parenting books and and again one of the reasons I loved your book and was obsessed with it is I feel in the parenting space and maybe I just haven't read enough but some of them dive it's all into one topic right so it goes very deep which is good in some senses but in other times it's very it can be almost seem like bias or anecdotal and your writing like this is what I love you covered just the full gambit like I like I mentioned even though you didn't dive into like mental health and talking to your kids about drugs so much of the stuff from other chapters could be applied right because as a parent who talks to my son like I've had him meditating since he was like five and stuff like that right and we talk about mental health and emotional well-being there was so much stuff in various chapters of your book where I'm like oh yeah these are things that I've talked about with my son and you know the chapter on self-esteem that's good for mental health so I think you do a great job with that so like when I was reading I'm like okay well well Melinda what do I do now when my kid turns 13 14 years old I need another I need another book I need you to go do all the research for me yeah so that would be that would be awesome but but yeah you you have a busy day and a busy week because we're recording this during your launch week so book comes out tomorrow on the 20th at the time of recording this where okay so a few questions where can people get the book and where is the best place for people to find you since you are writing in between books you write articles and stuff like that like people who just fell in love with you where can they keep keep up with all your your good stuff yes oh thank you for asking that so my book is for sale at any bookseller you can buy it from your local indie bookstore you can buy it from Amazon um but I and as far as finding me I because I also write a parenting newsletter a free parenting newsletter called is my kid the asshole which every week I or every other week I should say it's every week but every other week I address like a question from a parent about challenging kid behavior like why does my kid freak out when I tell them to turn off the iPad like what's going on there how can I help them so all of but you can sign up for my newsletter and you can read my articles and you can actually get purchase links for the book by going on my website which is Melinda winnermoyer.com and so everything's there and yeah and I update it with you know events that that are upcoming as well I have a launch event several launch events coming up this week too if anybody wants to see more but I feel like we covered so much ground here maybe not yeah and and you're and you're super active on you know social media Twitter and Instagram so I will be linking that as well as long as a book another question for you is will your book be available in audio format oh yes yes I just actually recorded it a few weeks ago and that was that was amazing that was I've never done anything like that that was really fun so yes it will it is going to be available starting tomorrow in audio format as well and there's an e-book too I am an audio listener and you're so kind I put a nice little like extra thing like Melinda is a nice gal like where you because you you went out of your way to get me an audio copy and I I listen to that thing and and love it you narrated it yourself right yes yes I love when authors do that but anyways yeah so hopefully everybody gets it and all that stuff and I didn't even realize you have a newsletter so now I get to sign up and see if my kids an asshole um so I can't wait to do that so thank you so much for Melinda and best of luck during this launch oh my gosh thank you so much Chris this is really fun thanks for having me


About one of the scouples. Candy store right now. We got Mitchiff and Mitch. Mitch going to be your red wrestler. Mitchiff going to be your Kent State green wrestler. Time to unattach Virginia Tech here. My dark horse to Blaze. Sick two days of wrestling coming up. Mitchiff really pushing the pace on the edge. No relation to Danny Mitchiff. Casually look alike. Fred, you sold for Michigan. Mitch, straight away double. Snapping down. It's Mitchiff. He's Red Nino from Michigan. I never had a chance. Oh, Mitch. Counter off and slide by with the underhold. Drops to a far ankle. Then changes off to a low single here. Shallow is it for Mitchiff? Trying to shelf in his Mitch. Straight away shot there for Mitch. Mitch slides by the underhook. Almost scores. Minute 47 left on the clock. Mitch looked like he was going duck there. Stuffed easily by Mitchiff. Underhook and a chin. Chasing corner, getting zero. Back up to their feet. Lot of action early. Mitch of attacking on the edge. And we're going to get a fresh start back center. I don't know what Zeb would sell me his Kent State Lulans for. Oh, nice elbow off to a hot crotch. Cracking it down. Michigan's up here. Mitchiff scores. Kilgore smiling in the background. Minute left in the period. Minute left in the period. Game starter, Campbell, Kelly, move back from Morgan State. That's about 23. We're going to come back to number four on 24. Kyle Hunter, all to the end. Derek Lesney from the Air Force. Mitchiff going DLC style with the Band-Aid under his eye. I can't appreciate that. Richard Grubb from Princeton. Double redrop. No scrubs from Mitchiff. Up to his feet quick is Mitch. Looking to peel hands. And a loose return for Mitchiff. Andrew C. says, keep him on the mat. Riding time, apparently, is at three minutes. Whatever my riding time, 57 minutes. I was looking at the wrong clock. That'll be a lot of riding time to have in the first period. From Virginia Tech, warming up for Band-Aid nine, warming up for Backdoor 10, and 133, 130. Nasty crawl space for Mitchiff there. Leader to Rarer. Side to go, a little throat. Theresa from Zulu, warming up for the backdoor. That's going to be period. 2-0 with a minute 14 of riding time for Mitchiff. Myself's going to be a long two days. I can't match Mark Bader's pace. Up to his feet quick is Mitch. Going hip pocket with the hands. Mitchiff with the redrop. Mitch back up again.  I got my riding time. Let's dance. Minute 20 of riding time for Mitchiff. And an eye poke. His eyeball did not fall out. That was a contact. I'm going to get yelled at for being inappropriate. Young Virginia Tech coaching staff here. Young Virginia Tech coaching staff. First injury time for Mitchiff. One more, Mitch will get choice. Factor right now, looks like Mitch wants to pick up his hand fight, snapping. Straightaway double. Mitchiff with a nice snap down to short offense. Mitch clears. This is too confusing for me for the first match of the turn, but I'm going to hang top like a nook. Got some scrapping. Mitch up 3-2 now. 23 seconds of riding time he needs to erase from Mitchiff. Sure, Mitch is fully aware of that. Mitch goes crab. Mitch has been a little bit of trouble here. Seconds to erase riding time, and that's near ball. No swipes. Mitchiff did put himself in some trouble there. He's put himself there again. Refs kind of out of position here. Riding time has been erased. Mitch is in a little bit of trouble. Mitchiff going front lag here. Warmed up from that six. Off of Mitch, Mitch, Mitchiffs. Too much, too much to say. Stale mate, good for Mitch. He wasn't in the best positions to be riding there. 3-2 lead for Mitch. Mitchiff still has 32 seconds of riding time. 23 seconds left in the period. Mitch covers. Mitchiff trying to change him over and get some risk control here. Goes in a boot. Nice. Hip switch on the way up for Mitchiff. Let's see if he can score it. We've got to be stalling here. He's got to build up. Refs going to let it go. Can't stay guys while stalling. And that's a huge period for time. Mitch gets the escape. Take down on the edge. A race is almost every bit of riding time Mitch have had. Mitchiff going down again. Point will tie it up. Riding time not a factor. Can be if Mitch can hang on for a minute and eight seconds. Give me a heads up. I'll wave something. All right? You can hear me all right? Way over there. Straightaway double. Really no setup for that. Flat here. He's himself doing himself a favor.  A little disappointed. Russell's shaved off his mustache. See that in the background. Thoroughly disappointed. Let's hope that doesn't affect his performance. And 133. 36 seconds left in the period. And we got to figure Mitch is going to get popped for stalling if he keeps hanging out on bottom like that. 34. 15 seconds. Period's going to end. Mitchiff rolling on. Dark horse has got a long road back. Great match.


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