Okay, hey friends, this is Dan and Stephanie Burke. You're watching behind the scenes divine intimacy radio We're excited to have and a guest today an unusual guest Dr. Ian Murphy and he's written an exceptional book called the road to self-awareness the therapy book for Christians and he has a fascinating story of being three at once times 300 pounds and then Finding healing in the way back to kind of a healthier life, but the book's not about weight loss. It's about authentic self-awareness in the context of God and His will for our lives and and so I'm excited to have him Share with you the wisdom that he's gained in his own battles and through his deep rooting in the Catholic faith Before we jump into that show, I want to tell you about two upcoming opportunities One is for divine intimacy and marriage retreat November 3rd through the 5th at the shrine in the most blessed sacrament in Hansville, Alabama November or November 3rd through the 5th spiritual direction.com forward slash events especially for the guys out there that are low on on Marriage points. Yeah, how do you know about the point system? Listen That's supposed to be secret. No, it's there. So so guys if your points warehouse is down do Zero zero or if it's in the negative negative and you want to really bless your wife And by the way, we always say this but we don't act guys that ask guys to act like women a lot of these retreats are designed You know on sort of a shmarmie pup psychology and the I think It's very cool about this and this is absolutely 100% true. You and I have never been to a marriage retreat So so we did not build this on anybody else's model. This has come out of prayer It's come out of our own stories Yeah, and our own brokenness and and how to truly You know the the secondary line of it title is a scent to oneness Yeah, and we play off that word oneness with each other and with the Lord Not in that order But certainly it's it's very powerful and I I'm just really struck by the fruit of The marriage retreat. Yeah, we just had a Couple of couples even more. I think no there were several couples Yeah on our last pilgrimage that all went to the retreat and it was a profound blessing for them They're still talking about the fruits of it. Yeah, so anyway, yeah guys Reach out go to spiritualdirection.com forward slash Retreat or a force for slash event. Sorry spiritualdirection.com forward slash events and check out the dates and all the details there Because it would be a Incredible early Christmas present For your spouse and then then the next opportunity then we'll jump into the show is The mass and the Old Testament approaching the Lord with fear and trembling Gonna be taught by Dr. Robert Goucher at the Aval Institute and to participate more fully in the mass We need to be aware or it can be helpful extremely helpful to be aware of the symbolic Nature of the text and structure of the mass and this course will explore the way that liturgy We celebrate today has been shaped by themes from the Bible. So Avila dash Institute org Avila dot Institute org lots of This is a school of spiritual formation course, which means it's it's deep content, but designed for busy people So I think you'll like that So ready to go and jump into the show. Yep. I'm excited. Yeah And we need to make sure The bottom of the questions page is the URL Work Okay, okay on your mark. Oh, you want to bring it back to her? No, you want to wait? Yeah on your mark. It's that go this Dan stepney Burke Welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio haven of rest your hermitage of the heart your monastery of the mine Where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven to draw upon the wisdom of the saints to help us to Navigate this tumult of this incredibly difficult Life and we have a man That's coming to join us in the show today Who has a great deal of wisdom to offer us and how to navigate? Personal growth spiritual growth self-awareness fight against sin. Yeah. Yeah union with God all that good stuff Yeah, yeah, and and I really love this because this just really ties into Our own spirituality our charism Apostoli VA, you know, how how we live out This call to holiness that we're we're trying to pursue and trying to cooperate with because Teresa of Avila herself And we just got back from Spain on an amazing pilgrimage and walking in her steps in her footsteps But she herself says that we must grow in self-awareness till our last breath. Yeah that that is part Central to our walk in holiness fascinating enough is St. Catherine of Siena the opening paragraph in the dialogue speaks of this importance of self Awareness and so right right. So I want to introduce our guest dr. Ian Murphy Ian Murphy experienced a stirring journey into Christianity out of agnosticism His subsequent ministry to reach other skeptics with the gospel Unexpectedly rocketed to public attention when his valedictorian speech about Jesus made headlines nationwide inspiring a congressional law from the desk of senator Arlen specter this momentum Landed in into the position of head pastor at a Baptist church in Texas where his ministry remains centered Until his decision to become Catholic. That's a leap Shifting career direction. He became a press a professor of theology most recently at Divine Mercy University his autobiography Entitled dying to live from agnostic to Baptist to Catholic Included a forward by Scott Hahn and was published by Ignatius Press His second book is the 2023 offering from Sophia Press entitled the road to self-awareness a therapy book for Christians Which we'll be speaking about today He currently works as a full-time Catholic writer and speaker and resides near Charleston with his wife Rachel Welcome, dr. Murphy. It's wonderful to have you I'm delighted to be here. I can't thank you enough for this opportunity to get to meet you and to talk about the book I am so grateful. Thanks for everything you do and thanks for having me on the program I'm glad to have you. I I I found your book is a is a is a good read Which isn't always the case sometimes good books are hard to read and they should be ready even if they're hard to read But I think what I really liked about your style Is that you are very vulnerable and you interweave your own struggles with gluttony And your own wrestling the book isn't about gluttony or about weight loss But it is about healing and coming to to deeper wholeness and healing in Christ Why did you decide to be to take that path of revealing your own sin to the world if you will? I really appreciate that question. I had been reading a lot of beautiful and important books that I'm glad I read But there was something about those books that I started to notice across the board that had been bothering me namely they all seemed to condescend me as though An expert who had it all sorted out Was talking down to me and I felt like a cell phone and he was downloading the right app And he had it and I didn't and I needed it and it just felt like the writers Were all sorted out and I started to think well I don't have good news as a Catholic because I'm all sorted out I have good news as a Catholic because I'm aware I'm sick And need a hospital for the sick and am in desperate need of the great physician And and I thought about my favorite writers like st. Paul Who talks from his own brokenness and david who talks from his own repentance insane agustin Who whose entire prayer the confessions his autobiography? Is coming from his own vulnerable brokenness and in encountering the one who's healing him You know through his prayer you can have that same experience and I thought you know, that's that's the style I want to imitate that's the style. I would like to write in Is humbly you know from my own brokenness not as though I have something all sorted out because I certainly don't Yeah, I I love that and I think that really resonates with people today because the last thing That I think you know, I think people can easily listen to folks and go okay Well, what do you have to say you know because you? You you haven't been where I've been you you don't understand how broken I am Um, I remember the first time I heard a Catholic speaker admit that they had troubles in their marriage and I exhaled and I said Thank god, they're normal You know and it was like oh, okay now I can listen in peace because there was this chasm of distance, you know this this between me and them thinking Okay, they're perfect. They got it all figured out and I'm you know, I'm broken How how do I possibly? Absorb, you know what they have to say or how can it resonate with my life? So thank you for your vulnerability because I think it will really resonate with people where you've been Um and and how far you've come and and and who? Who was the catalyst for that right? Um, which is our lord so will you? Uh, tell us a little bit about how you came to be where you are now speaking about self-awareness Tell us a little bit about your journey. How'd you get here? Sure the uh the original title of this book was going to be how Thomas Aquinas helped me lose a hundred pounds But uh as you said so well It's it's not a weight loss book and it was Sophia press that quickly realized that this is a book about healing period it's a book about salvation about the process of being perfected in love Being perfected in charity growing in the virtues and not just being healed from sin but healed for abundant life and so that's why we changed the title but The the book started when uh, you know one day I I I sat down, you know feeling healthy and handsome and My giant over 300 pound belly popped over my belt And literally shot open my sports coat That had been fastened with a single gold button What when my belly? Pushed the sports coat open it shot that button off The button goes whistling across the room Soaring through the air popping against the wall like a projectile missile I pull out a scale and step on it for the first time in years I hadn't stepped on to a scale is one of those old dial scales and this little dial is like every 360 degrees represents a hundred pounds. Well, this thing goes around once twice a third time and it's still going I this little dial was doing laps, which apparently was something I ought to have been doing I get on the phone. I call my sister. I said sarah. Am I fat? She says you you didn't know I Said I honestly didn't I look at myself in the mirror every day And I honest to goodness had no idea I thought it was perfectly I was totally blind That I was destroying myself and a slave to a literally deadly sin I know I was eating my way into high blood pressure a possible early heart attack And it was quite the wake up call And I think it's important, you know, we talk a lot of on this show about Grace mercy compassion. We are also talk a lot about The need for us to be authentic disciples and to knuckle down and you know You've not resisted to the point of shedding blood, you know, St. Paul said in in the Hebrews So to buffet our body make it our slave. So we really try to bring the balance the two And so but one of the things about your story that fascinating fascinated me was That you you know, the Being that overweight affects everything you do it affects, you know A lot of things I don't want to go into describe but It it's a debilitating in so many ways and it's and it you would think it's so loud. I guess It's so loud What I find fascinating is And and this is important for those who are trying to help others to grow in virtue Is we look at others and we think Well, look at what a loser so and so is I mean contrary to the gospel reading today, right for mass Look at what a loser so and so is Why don't they get their act together When so many times when you're stuck in habitual sin like you were Well, I'll just ask you what does that do to your perception? I mean like how did you How do you orient that to catholic theology of a phd in theology? How does that all work that a person you could be so overweight? And if it was affecting your your your dating life if I remember, right? You know How does that work? Why does that happen that we could be so blind to think something so incredibly obvious? That's such a great question. And as you pointed out so well, I Could see that same sin in somebody else crystal clear Like if I was in a room and some other guy who was only five foot ten weighed over 300 pounds I would see him as the obese guy in the room right, you know, I could I could see it in someone else, but How was I so blind to it in myself? Aristotle has this great line from nikomaki in ethics and he says vice expels rational calculation Vice expels Rational calculation our ability to think reasonably rationally Our self-aware ability to see ourselves with clarity Sin expels that Or to put it in theological terms as you asked Thomas Aquinas talks about sin and ignorance Sin and ignorance being the two fold darkness Into which we were born You know, it's not just that we're born into this covenants rupture called sin It's that we're born into the darkness that results the expelled Rational calculation we're born into a two fold darkness estrangement from our creator and A misunderstood image of our father as the loving provider He truly is which because we're made in god's image means A warped self image You know, so we're born into this warped god image this warped self image We're born into covenant rupture And the ignorance the blindness that it produces. We don't see that's what sin does it blinds us to ourselves Beautifully stated powerfully stated we get back from the break. We're going to continue With um, we're going to continue with dr. Ian Murphy that'll that pause will be edited out And so will those statements will continue with dr. Ian Murphy and we come back We're going to talk about the relationship of daily prayer with becoming awake to Our brokenness and what god is doing in our lives and how it helps us to See the truth and to see ourselves in light of his love and grace and Regarding where he wants to take us in this life as we journey to heaven. So we'll be right back On your market set Well, I think we covered all the commercial stuff. So On your market set go this is dan stephanie burk. Welcome back to divine intimacy radio your radio haven of rest We're here with dr. Ian Murphy. We're talking about a fantastic book the road to self-awareness a therapy book for Christians So dr. Murphy before the break you explained well theologically Why we can be blind to patterns of sin? um, I there's a There's another angle to this and that is the power of prayer and how it turns the light on in the room I I I recently was blessed with so fience to press to bring back An extraordinary work by another doctor of the church Called prayer a great means of self the salvation by saint ophanus of guru And it it he talks about how those who don't practice mental prayer Don't care about venial sin. Don't see it. Don't understand Their brokenness.  It's like turning a light on your soul Did prayer play a part in your Coming to that.  You know in fact in my book I say if uh if you want to try doing this on your own steam go ahead and mark this page And after you fall on your face just come back and pick up reading And uh and start with prayer because that's it is everything. Yeah, i'm reminded in uh the interior castle Uh, I think it's in the very first castle st. Teresa of Avala Says people who aren't willing to turn inward And aren't willing to look inside be self-aware And face themselves in the light of their creator. I I just don't have a lot to say to you This book just simply isn't for you Yeah, you know, I don't I don't know what I couldn't say to you And that that button popping moment It was an invitation To prayer and I had to accept that invitation and and when I did That light came on And I've got to say when when you have that light come on and you actually get a good look at your desperate need for the redeemer And just how deep the wound of sin goes in you It's a horrifying sight and the temptation is just Well, like roaches when you turn on a light in a room they Right back into the dark. They don't want the light on it The sin just wants to get back to the darkness. You just shudder.  I'll take my ocular fill Of that inner nastiness. No, no, we want to look away and I found that the only thing that made it safe For me to face that dire need for the redeemer Was to know that his love is always bigger than the sin His mercy is bigger than the sin My sin is not the starting point. God's love is the starting point And it is only when I am assured of that love that it makes it safe to get that illumination and know I am under the blood of the lamb and God loves me and his grace is bigger than this problem And it's that connection. It's it's god who heals us and it's We who cooperate with that process by letting him do it. Yeah I you know, that's so beautifully said and and described and I think The the problem with sin is that it darkens the intellect it darkens our self-awareness It darkens everything within us that would help us lean towards the lord Lean towards the father to receive that healing because the enemy loves us to to believe God doesn't love you. He's abandoned you. You're hopeless. You're hopeless.  He loves you because of it And and and I love this understanding that the lord came when he returned. He still had his wounds He still had his wounds and he wants to meet us in our brokenness And glorify that glorify our wounds so that he can work in and through it to heal us and to heal others And and it is just it's just such a profound You know reality here as we read your book and read this The story that you've gone through is that the lord has done exactly that with you in this particular area He met you in your brokenness and now he's using it through your healing To heal others and that's just a beautiful thing So I wanted to talk to you. I go ahead. Go ahead I just wanted to give an emphatic amen to that beautiful insight I I just hearing the way you worded that fills me with so much hope That you know, I think about that the resurrected Jesus still Had those wounds now glorified as badges of honor as as testaments of his faithfulness to the father and and to us I will spend all of eternity Contemplating those wounds on my behalf And when I think about you know, what my own wounds and what my own brokenness Could become in the hands of this same redeemer That's what an exciting thought. It's glorious. Thank you for that. Yeah, it is absolutely glorious Before we get to the next question. I want to just call our listeners to the book. We're talking about dr. Ian Murphy Uh, the book we're talking about is his book the road to self-awareness of therapy therapy book For christians. I have no doubt you can find it at one of the best Christian source or catholic sources for books or christian and catholic and that is EWTN's religious catalog Something really cool happens when you buy books from EWTN religious catalog One, uh, they'll send you the book when you pay them, which is great and two, you're actually helping an incredible worldwide ministry of price redeeming love And so please support EWTN in every way that you can we're grateful to be to To to have this show and to to all the great work that they do But go ahead Steph. You got a another question for for dr. Murphy. Yeah, and and so Tell us about, you know, you use the word A therapy book for christians. Well, everybody's into therapy. They're all you know, everybody's navel gazing Trying to figure out Who they are and why they do what they do so that there's someone to blame or something right and so It's I think it's well-meaning But it can often be misguided and promoting approaches to personal healing that are keeping people really sick So what would you say is missing from today's self-help industry? What's different about what you do and what's harmful in the world out there that's keeping people locked In their brokenness Thank you for that question. You said it the the therapeutic world today Is well-meaning but dangerously misguided.  They don't know that fundamentally We are reflections of the creator We were created in the image and likeness of the triune god who is himself love as a community of being and if you don't start there Your approaches are going to be grossly incomplete at best And dangerous at worst and this is what's happening. Uh as an example A tragic one. It's a popular therapy today. So you know what therapy can we pause for a second?  Try it again. Go ahead Okay, okay. I'll try moving it a little closer. Is that helping? We're good. We're good. I think it was on rn So, um, do you want her to ask the question again? Or are you good? You you we can start? We're an example a tragic example if if are you good with that? I'm good with that. It should I move the mic back? No, no, no, no Don't touch anything. We're good. Good. Okay, great. You ready? sure A tragic example Great mark that go A tragic example of misguided therapy today is the popular treatment of struggling married couples going to counselors And being advised to watch pornographic movies together I mean and and the insanity of this can be shown Just through clinical studies alone. I mean even somebody who rejects the christian revelation Can still see clear evidence of its truth its objective truth in clinical studies that prove that Pornography has an effect on the human brain the same as an addictive opioid You know, they have literally attempted to heal a broken marriage by prescribing adultery and narcotics I mean it's it's patently absurd And in spite of clinical studies, it's still being advised as a popular treatment and the examples go on and on University counseling center handing out free contraceptives you know to try to Counsel young adults at some of the most vulnerable moments in their lives this university Uh that did this of course ignored the biological effects of the bonding hormones that are released during intercourse And the suicidal inclinations and depression that can result When those bonding hormones are released and then the relationship breaks up And so what was their answer to the new problem? They handed out antidepressants They threw through a pill at the situation which might treat a symptom, but it's not going to heal the broken person Dr. Murphy We have not scratched the surface and we're coming to the end of the show. Would you be willing to do another show with us? I would be honored. It would I'd be delighted to thank you for the So folks if you want to watch the new show live stream hop out to spiritualdirection.com But in the meantime, you can find more of dr. Murphy's work more about him at Dr. D r i a n m u r p h y dot com. That's d r i a n m u r p h y dot com in the book The road to self-awareness therapy book for christians published by suffine's to press you can find it uwtn's religious catalog Okay, and with that we'll be right back No with that Until next time may the god of peace make you perfect in holiness. May he preserve you whole and entire spirit soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our lord jesus christ Amen don't don't pop us off jordan. So again folks if you found this helpful, and you want to hear the second show Go ahead and pop out now to the spiritualdirection.com Is it the facebook page jordan? And then it'll also be on our youtube page And so we'll uh, we'll be right. We'll be we'll be over there in just a minute to continue our conversation So we're going to close out this show dr. Murphy, and then this link will become Non-usable, but jordan's going to email you a new one right away Once you once you pop on we'll start the second show Sounds great. All right, thank great


The 100,000 to handicapped is scheduled to be run at Santa Anita Park, California. The program, which follows Avalon Time, answered by the Brown and Williamson Corporation, will be interrupted so that you may hear a description of the race by Clem McCarthy. We take you now to Cincinnati. A package of Avalon cigarettes, please. Yes, sir. Oh, just a moment, sir. Don't forget to change. You never guess, but Avalons cost you less. So why not have it, Avalon? Thank you and good evening, friends. This is Del King saying welcome to Avalon Time with greetings from Red Foley and the entire company. Well, now that all the big league teams are in spring training, we find Red Skelton in Avalon, umpiring one of the Chicago Cubs training games. We give you Red, out at first, Skelton. Ball four. You're out. What do you mean, ball four? I'm out. The bases are full, and I got no place to put you. See what you get for balling me out there booing you now? Let him alone, folks. Don't boo him no more. He's all right. That guy's so dumb, he thinks a two-bagger is those things under Fred Allen's eyes. That was cut, Peter, but thanks. Good enough for me, boy. I'm through umpiring. Every time I umpire a game, something happens. Last year in New York, I yelled strike and 17 pickets ran out on the field. Hello there, Skelton. Hello there, microphone.  Why should I park my hair in the middle? Every block should have an alley. Hey, don't bother me, will you? I'm busy man today. Hey, Jackson, give me one of those hot dogs, will you? With sauerkraut. A hot dog with sauerkraut? Okay. I'll chain one with a bail of hay.  Yes, I do.  I even got a baseball dog. He catches flies, he wears a muzzle, he bats for a home every time he sees the catcher. Oh, I'm heading for the shoes. These wagons are killing me. Oh, lookit, I have a brother that's playing baseball on one of the big government teams. He's got a lot on the ball, but the chain's holding him back. One day, he was standing out on 3rd and the guy hit a pop fly, so he started to run home, but they got him as he was going over the wall. He's a great baseball player, though. One time, they were playing night baseball, and the lights went out, and the convicts were so crooked they played three endings without a ball. I understand that Roosevelt found out how much they made baseball last season, so he's going to throw out Congress and put in the New York Yankee. There's your hot dog, Mr. Skelton. And I'll bet the poor thing thought I was Thomas Dewey the way I grilled it. Hey, this hot dog got a feather in it. That's all right. It's probably a bird dog. Well, look who's coming across the baseball diamonds, folks. It's Red Foley, the singing star of Avalon Time. Hey, hello there, Skelton. Hello, Foley. Come on over. Buy your hot dog. No, I promise the boys I'd sing them a song, and here it is. What are you going to sing, Red? Uh, singing in the saddle. Well, that fits baseball. Yeah. I'm singing in the saddle. God me from above. I've been rounding up the load. Now I'm heading for my range. Househead of the hooves. I'm a hummingbird. It's a perigal who knows I'm a hummingbird. I'm a singing star. Skelton. Well, hello, Peter Grant. Boy, you look like a happy man. Bet your life there. May I say this hasn't been cut, too, has it? No, go right ahead, Peter. Step over the cigarette stand here with me more, will you? Yeah, OK. Well, here we are. A carton of Avalons, please. Oh, a carton. It used to be a pack. Well, I'm sorry, sir. We have only seven packs left. Yeah, that's the way these Avalons sell. They must be all right. All right. Here it comes, Louisville. Oh, tell them about them, Peter. My friend. My friend, the reason you sell so many Avalon cigarettes is because your customers realize they're getting more for their money. Yeah, they're getting more for the money. They get finest quality cigarettes for three to five cents less than other popular price brands and make no mistake about it. Avalons are finest quality. Yeah, Avalons are the finest quality. Remember that, brother. In fact, you could want no finer quality cigarettes regardless of price. Regardless of brand. Rigid. Thank you, Red. I'm sorry, that was your line, wasn't it? OK, Peter, keep it up. You're getting a crowd around you now. Well, Avalon cigarettes are 100% union made from the world's choices, Turkish and domestic tobaccos. They are real cigarettes, friends. That's why you'd never guess they cost you less. All right, Peter? Right, Red. Superfine tobaccos, a really superior blend at a real saving. Yes, sir. So the next time, why not ask for Avalons? Ring a cash register, brother. What is it, class? And don't forget your cash. Oh. Not bad, huh? Say, if I didn't know you're better, Peter, I'd swear you intended that to be a commercial announcement. See you later, Red. OK, Peter. It's along. Oh, hey, Jackson. Give me another one of those hot dogs, will you? Gee, I don't know what's the matter with me.  Oh, I wouldn't worry about it. You're probably just a glutton. Look, there's maybe a lot of trouble. Just give me a litter of those pups, will you? Hello, Mr. Scalford. Oh, hello, Miss Dill. Oh, my, you look pretty enough to kiss.  My goodness. Where did you get that suit? What's the matter with it? Well, nothing. Only it's the first checkerboard I've ever seen with patched pockets. Yeah. What's the matter with a suit? Well, it's the latest thing. The only thing I don't like about it are the pants. They're a little tighter than the armpit. I'm going to get my pajamas in the pockets. There's no room for anything else. Oh, hello, Professor. My, my. How are you, Mr. Scalford? Thank you, sir. You look great tonight, Professor. Thank you.  The question must be a Lulu to have you to get away from your program. Well, what is the question, Professor? Come, come. It's on your mind besides it's a pay that looks like a wet rabbit. Oh. Well, the question is, what is a hot dog? A hot dog?  Thank you so much. When you go horseback riding, horseback riding, you get a headache. Yes, I do. Well, with me and Spicer Bertha. Oh, that Professor's a great guy. The only thing he owes so much money, is making up his misses now. He owes so much money that his creditors fall him to theaters on bank night. I don't know, this routine's pretty tired. I think I'll go get some shed-eye in it, will you, Phil? I wish to thank the Brown and Williamson Corporation makers of Avalon cigarettes for permitting us to interrupt Avalon time so that the national broadcasting company can bring you a description of the actual running of the Santa Anita Handicap at Santa Anita Park, California. You will now hear Clem McCarthy direct from Santa Anita. One moment, please. We welcome to the network those eastern listeners who have just joined us here at Santa Anita Park in California for the fifth running of the Santa Anita Handicap. The horses are right up there at the starting point, and so I'm going to give you the bare facts about this big race. As you know, it's a mile and a quarter. $100,000 added and the winner will take down $91,100. Now for your information, those of you who are interested in the various post positions, how they will line up, here they are on the inside position to the outside. Two horses starting outside the gate. 14 stalls in the gate and there being 16 horses running, then two of them must start on the outside. Here they are on the inside. Quick devil with Carl Bierman in his saddle. Thanksgiving with Jackie Westrup. He'll fly with Harry Richards. Specified Charlie Corbett in fifth position, Giacola with Moose Peters just in from Florida. Main man with Georgie Wolf. Sartillado, the South American horse with Ralph Neves. Frexo with Freddie Miller. Gosum with Alan Gray. Witch C with Basil James. Crevat with Bobby Robertson. Warminstrel with Mickey Wall. Today, Sylvia Cucci. Melodist with Sammy Renwick. Congressman with Johnny Longdon. And Kayak the second, another South American horse with Johnny Adams. Now then, in regard to the popularity of these horses with the crowd this afternoon, in just the way that they rate with these people who are trying to depict the winner, the most popular horse is the entry of Sartillado and Kayak. These two South American horses own by Charles S. Howard, who also happens to be the owner of Sea Biscuit. And next in popularity to them comes Crevat. Now I would say that about one out of every four people here today, like that South American entry of Kayak and Sartillado, and about one out of every six, like Crevat. And after him, the next in popularity, very close up, is specify then Witch C, then the entry of today and Gosum, and then the others not so popular in the order of their popularity is the main man on Quick Devil, Thanksgiving, Heel Fly, Jack Cola, War Minstrel and Melodist as an entry, Congressman, and the rank outsider is Preck Soul, the French horse owned by Raoul Walsh. Now the horses are up there in their position and they won't be long at the post, I'm pretty sure. Incidentally, this is a great site to stand up here on this roof and look out across this parking space easily the largest parking space of any race course in America, possibly in the world. This is probably the largest parking space for any great sports event. Today, at a quarter after 12, I counted myself a block of a thousand cars out here in the parking space and then I got busy trying to multiply that and I finally wound up with what I thought to be a little short of 20,000 cars at a quarter after 12. Now they were still porting in at half past two and the capacity of the place is supposed to be 22,000 cars. It's jammed right to the gates and over on the far side, the gross value of the race with 16 starters is 137,200. The winner will take down 91,100. The crowd last year was estimated at 63,000. I believe that's official and I know that this crowd today is very close to 70,000. It cost $100 for each of these horses and all the others of the 107 that were entered back in December to get into the race, $100. Then yesterday morning when the horses were named to start it cost them $250 for that privilege. Two of them withdrew and that left 16 that paid an additional $750 to start. The association adds $100,000 to the race and gives the winning trainer $10,000 which brings the whole grand total up to $137,200. Now we're going to talk about those horses stepping into the gate. On the inside there is Quick Devil and next to him is Thanksgiving and there's Heal Fly. There comes Quick Devil into his position. Thanksgiving is not yet in his Heal Fly. He's acting all right. That hood over him I think. Yes, he has the bandage over his eyes. That's the only way he'll walk into his stall gate. Specify has not yet made up his mind to go in. Way on the outside, kayak in the outside position is acting okay. Congressman is next to him. Melodist out there in the outside stall. Specify is way out there behind. War Minstrel just jumped through the gate. All he had to do was stop. Heal Fly, he dived out. He thought he anticipated to start and jumped right out of the gate. Heal Fly just tipped off his rider, Harry Richards. Harry's all right. He's going to get right back in the saddle. Just needs a little help there, boys. Giving him a leg up now. Heal Fly wheeled very fast and caught Harry napping. You know, these modern juckies ride with their stirrups so short. It's remarkable sometimes that a horse doesn't jump right out from under them. They get very little grip with their heels. However, they are the juckies. They have to do the riding so they shouldn't know how to make a difference what his style is. He must be a good race rider. Harry Richards is waiting now out there giving a leg up. He'll be back and Heal Fly is saddled in just a second. Kayak is standing all right in his position. And there is Jacola is all right. She just walked into her stall. Main man is acting very good. Frekso is quiet. Melodist is now cutting up a little on the outside. Kayak is behaving beautifully. Specify doesn't want to go into his stall yet. Waiting patiently on Specify. He has got the... Specify has got the fourth position there. Yes, sir, he's right next to Heal Fly in between Heal Fly and Jacola. Thanksgiving just walked into his stall and tried to walk out, but his jockey stopped him in time. They're all in there now. Everybody except Heal Fly. And Specify that might break any instant. No. Heal Fly doesn't want any part of it yet. He's waiting for Specify to go in his stall. All the other horses are acting like ladies and gentlemen. Yes, there's one lady in here, Jacola. She'll start here recently, but oftentimes a horse needs a race. And with that race under his belt, we'll run much better. Look out, look out, look out. They're all straight, but are they ready? That's up to Eddie Thomas. We can't know. Specify backed out of his stall. He backed out, and which seed jumped out of his stall on the front of his stall and had to go back through. It's now turning to walk up in again. Specify is out. Heal Fly is in there with that bandage over his eyes acting very quietly. Now look out. Specify is walking in. Be careful. Be careful. No, he wouldn't come in. He probably would have had a step at the gate if he had. And Eddie Thomas is not letting any horse take a step at this if he can help it. He can't help it if some jockey is unprepared or the horse himself is standing there flat-footed and can't get away. That's not Eddie's fault. What he's watching for is some quick alert jockey not to take a step at him and beat him away from there. Look out, look out. Look out. No, Specify came in with a rush and then took out again. They've been at the pulse now, roughly speaking. They've been there just four minutes. That's all. Which is not bad for a field of 16 horses. Everybody there is ghostly. He just stepped out of his stall, but that isn't bad. He took a kick at somebody, but missed. So that's okay. Melodists came back in and said, look out. They're all still. Specify had jumped out.  Went right up there, high up down his hind legs. That the jockey stayed right on his back and the lead boy is leading him in. Now, Specify has acting for badly that they take him Specify to the outside. They're tired of waiting for him and now Crick Devil is cutting up just to show that nobody has a monopoly on it. Now, Specify is way here on the outside and still cutting up and whirling. Now, we gotta watch Specify here on the outside. All the others will take care of themselves. They gotta get him straight. It's Specify on the extreme outside, outside the geek. No partition, no nothing. Just whirling around there doing as he pleases, acting badly. Well, look out now, uh, uh, uh, no. He just does not want to face this way. Look out, look out. Look out, it might, no. No, Specify retus, look, be careful. No, no. He will not, that's a strange thing about that horse. He will not face in this direction.  It seems to want to get a bust at the start. Look out now, no, no, again Specify. Was it false? Watch him, watch him. No, no, Specify would have been as good as left You know, when that bell rings, they're on their way. And look out, now watch, watch him. No, now again, Specify. And which sea jumped out of his stall? Jakola turning around, main man turning. No, now they're already except Specify. Specify, no, there, which sea backed out of his stall that time. He took it the other way. Now look out, if Specify straightens, we're going to leave there. No, boy, you can't do that way. No, no. I read, uh, uh, now watch, watch, watch, no. He just follows that assistant and start around like he was a little bit of a boy. Now he turned him once more, look out. They're off and they're running and the start was okay. Everybody got away except quick devil.  They're coming across past from the outside and about to take the lead. But taking the lead is which sea with Specify coming way over from the outside and running right beside him. And so they passed the stand with which sea in the lead by half a length and Specify is second. Now quick devil is third. Thanksgiving is fourth. Main man has moved up there and taken third place away from the other horse and now as they go round the turn it is which sea slipping away by a length and a half and leading into that turn by a length and a half is Specify is second. Main man is third. Thanksgiving fourth on the inside. Kayak is on the outside in about sixth place way out there. Jakolov is far back and so is Heelfly. Frekso is last. Now they've got three quarters of a mile to come which sea in Specify running neck and neck two lengths ahead of Main man who is two lengths ahead of Kayak and then comes Thanksgiving Sordiato and today moving up past on the outside. Jakola is about eight and congressman is seventh and the rest of them are in behind. Which sea is opened up again now by a length and a half leading have got three half a mile to come now which sea is leading by a length and a half Specify is second by a length and a half Main man is third but two lengths Kayak is fourth by a length and today is fifth. Jakola is down will be up into sixth place and Thanksgiving is seventh and Sordiato is moving up and now Specify is challenging which sea in the middle of the last turn they've got three eighths of a mile six hundred yards five hundred yards to come but Kayak on the outside is making his move into third place and now with a quarter of a mile to come four hundred yards it's Specify by a neck no which sea by a neck and Specify is second. Kayak out in the middle of track challenging third on the inside Main man is in the tight quarters but Kayak on the outside is taking the lead. Kayak is now leading by a length. Kayak is cutting away which sea is hanging on gamely Main man is getting through. Kayak is driving hard and he wins by a length and a half. Kayak which sea second. Main man third Specify fourth today fifth. Jakola is sixth but that's seventh goes from eight. Warn is the ninth. Flexile tenth. The last horse was Melodist and the time of the race was two one and two fifths for the mile and a quarter. Two one and two fifths for the mile and a quarter that mile and a quarter in two one and two fifths is one fifth of a second faster than stage hands wicked last year. Kayak one handily although Adams took no chances rode him out to the last jump. Kayak was the favorite with a crowd and I know you could hear the roar of that crowd that his victory was tremendously popular. Melodist was the last horse to finish he didn't pull up lame or anything else he just got tired the horse back here done saddle. Kayak is way over on the turn there easing up with the lead boy about to take him. The boy the experts who who looked at the race carefully had it right that at 110 pounds Kayak was so in so nicely that if he was as good a horse as his workouts and his races indicated that he would be a very hard horse to beat this afternoon. Now ladies and gentlemen there isn't any doubt about the finish of this race I've given you the result Kayak was first which sea was second and finished third that is how they finished in the $100,000 Santa Anita Handicap run here at Santa Anita Park in California. We thank the Brown and Williamson Corporation makers of Avalon cigarettes for giving up a portion of Avalon time so that we could bring you the actual running of the Santa Anita Handicap direct from the racetrack at Santa Anita Park California. We return you now to the Avalon time program at Cincinnati. This is Del King saying welcome back to Avalon time. Now in just a moment Phil Davis and his boys will beat out pagan love song but first a very important announcement next Saturday Avalon time will come to you at a new time 8 30 p.m. eastern standard time and 7 30 central standard time we hope that you'll be with us. Okay Phil beat out a bit of pagan new pagan Try one of these cigarettes. What kind are they? Avalons see what you think of them is light. Say that's a smooth cigarette. Nice mild smoke too. It's all right. You know they cost several cents less than that popular price brand you smoke. Really? Why? I can hardly believe it. Yes friends you'd never guess they cost you less because Avalons are positively highest quality cigarettes. 100% union made from the world's finest Turkish and domestic tobaccos yet these superior cigarettes cost three to five cents less per package than any other popular priced brands. When you can get Avalons outstanding quality at this exceptional economy why pay more? The next time forget price habit. Give your thrifty judgment a chance. Ask for Avalon cigarettes Well friends that's about all the time we have now but remember when you ask for Avalon cigarettes Don't forget to change Yes Avalon cigarettes difference cost several cents less than others you too can save this difference like all of us Avalon brothers each pack is wrapped in cellophane each pack is union made no wonder folks from coast to coast say Avalons lead the parade Your attention please. Remember next Saturday evening the Brown and Williamson Tobacco Corporation will present Avalon time at a new time 8 30 p.m. Eastern Standard Time 7 30 p.m. Central Standard Time. Del King speaking. Good night everybody. Avalon time originated in the studios of the nation station and has reached you through the national broadcasting company w e a f New York the national broadcasting company presents lives of great men a new series on great leaders in human progress presented by Dr. Edward Howard Griggs distinguished lecture critic and author of the soul of democracy and many other books in his talks Dr. Griggs is building a story of civilization based on outstanding characters through the ages and how each one influences his own in future times this evening Dr. Griggs will discuss Carlisle the man of letters as prophet


And welcome to likeable science. I'm your host Ethan Allen, here on Think Tech Hawaii. Another beautiful Friday afternoon here in Hawaii. And we're doing some particularly likeable science today. We have with us Michelle Beribari, I got that right, and Stacey Robinson from both from NOAA. And we're going to be talking about monk seals and monk seal vaccination particularly. So it seems like an odd thing. I ran into an article actually in Science Magazine, they had a one-page spread on Michelle's work and had a picture of her jabbing a monk seal. And it just immediately intrigued me. I said, this is good local science, people here in Hawaii should know about and should care about. So here they are. Tell us a little bit about how you got into this. It seems like an odd career choice. Well, my job is actually as a veterinarian for NOAA. I'm charged with overseeing the health of the population. And because Hawaiian monk seals are endangered, it means that we're looking after their health in a lot of different ways. It means that we're monitoring their health for exposure to different diseases. We look at why animals die. We look at ways to also protect their health. And so, vaccinating seals is one of the ways that we think we can best help the population fund itself off against something catastrophic such as a disease outbreak. Okay, good. Stacey? Yeah, and so I'm a research ecologist with the monk seal research program at NOAA. And so I guess I sort of fall into analyzing a lot of the data that we collect and helping look at efficient ways that we're going to go about something like a vaccination program and evaluating that when we do it. Excellent. And we've got a little video that shows sort of what this vaccinating seal is all about. It's a little different from your standard visit to a doctor's office and getting a human vaccination. And here you are. Yeah, so this is one of our co-workers. This is Tracy out on Rabbit Island. So those of you on Oahu are probably quite familiar where Rabbit Island is. And Tracy just gave the signal, which is our silly little signal to remind ourselves that we took the safety off of the pulsar inch. And Tracy's holding the pulsar inch, which is loaded with one milliliter of vaccine and she's going to go poke the seal. Obviously, she doesn't like it. And you know, they really don't, they do react, but then they kind of tend to hang out on the beach, which was something that we didn't necessarily know what to expect. But we were pleasantly surprised that a lot of seals turned around, vocalized, but often just went right back to sleep. They get over it surprisingly quickly. Yeah, like a big horse fly bit, I mean. Exactly, right? Yeah, exactly. That's, you know, it's valuable. They want to be out on the beach, right? They're doing that for reasons of their own health and well-being, presumably, and something basking to warm up or whatever. So it means a lot to them.  And yeah, so that's great. That's great that the well looks a little intrusive. It's not apparently deeply disturbing to the animals. Yeah, excellent. That's an important part of everything that we do. We're always trying to make sure that we're having as little impact on the animals as possible. Right.  Yes, so this is a pulsar hinge and it's not completely put together and obviously we left the needle out just so that everything would be safe today. But it is a spring-loaded device and so this is how you load the spring. And after you do that, you always make sure that the safety is on and then inside is a syringe which we would put vaccine in and it fits. It's a syringe specifically made for this and then everything just attaches onto the end just like that and then you charge it and it's ready to go. And we would have a needle on the end of this and then as soon as you turn this into the safety off position, it's essentially, as soon as it comes in contact with the seal, it's going to discharge and it happens really fast. So it's great and it's a small volume. This syringe can hold, this is a big syringe. We obviously don't fill this whole thing with vaccine. So the syringe holds about 10 milliliters. This vaccine is only a little tiny bit of that syringe. So it pops in really quickly and yeah, that's how it works. And it's a pretty common tool used in working with wildlife that you don't necessarily have the ability to bring them into a vet hospital, put them on an exam table, have a technician come in and hold them and the veterinarian gives their little vaccine. This is a much less intrusive way of going about it. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Very, very different than probably what you envisioned as yourself when you were going to vet school, right? You never know what you're going to get into with marine mammals, that's right there. Yeah. It is intriguing how our lives take those turns. So let's talk a little bit about this, what you're vaccinating against this distemper virus, right? Now, is this a naturally occurring virus or was it sort of introduced into the populations or? Yeah, it's a virus that actually is not that we know of at all circulating in monk seals. And the reason that we know that is because anytime we do handle a monk seal, whether it's to attach a tag to them or do any sort of health assessment, we're collecting blood samples and that's been going on for decades, far before my involvement with the program. So we're really fortunate to be able to lean on an extensive base of information. And in looking at those samples that have been collected over time, no antibodies in the blood of monk seals have ever been detected to a distemper virus or a morbidly virus. So we do not think that the virus is here or that monk seals are typically exposed to it. And that's actually the reason that it's a threat. So when you have viruses that are routinely circulating around in a population, whether it be humans in the seasonal flu or something like that, then there is some level of preexisting immunity that is existing in the population. For monk seals, we don't actually think they have that. But what we do know is that this virus has caused die-offs of tens of thousands of seals in other parts of the world. And it's also killed large numbers of cetaceans or dolphins as well. So the worry is that should it end up here in Hawaii, we could actually lose a substantial part of the population. Because if you lost tens of thousands of seals in other parts of the world, say in Europe, then for the 1,300 monk seals that we actually have left, they'd be at great risk. Yeah, absolutely. So I see. So you're doing this as a preemptive, preventive health care. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's remarkable foresight or no as part of that. Because yeah, if this, how does this virus get introduced to these other populations? Or is that not clear? Well, it can happen from different ways. So sometimes we don't always know how that happens. Canine distemper, so that's one of the viruses that you actually vaccinate your pet dogs at home against. And there have been introductions of canine distemper that are thought to have affected marine mammal populations as well. So that's one way. It is sometimes circulating in other populations and how exactly it got there in the first place is not completely known. One of the questions that we have that we're not sure of either is whether or not a cetacean or a dolphin that may have it could actually transfer that. So it's thought that that could go between different types of cetaceans, whether or not it could actually go from the cetacean to a pinniped, we're not entirely sure. Okay, okay, interesting. So then you get the whole sort of population dynamics business you have to be thinking about, right? This is where some data analysis comes in, right? Yeah, absolutely. And so thinking about the pre-planning that NOAA is doing with such a proactive vaccination program before we've even seen the disease, this was based on a lot of analysis that came long before the action. So we went through a lot of, we've got population dynamics data on the seals, how their populations grow and move over time and move from place to place. And then also sort of if you think of the virus population, we've got population dynamics data on these morbidly viruses from other situations where they have out broken. And so some of our colleagues put together some pretty substantial computer simulation models. And so even though we haven't seen the virus here yet, we could say we have ideas about how rapidly it can spread. We have ideas about how long it takes to make an animal sick, how long they can spread it to other animals. We know about seals and how much they contact other seals and how much they could spread it. So we're able to use those computer simulations to sort of play out these different scenarios. And we can say this is what a disease might do in the population. And we saw those results were like, wow, that's really frightening. We really should do something about this. And so then we can use those same simulations to say, okay, well, so once we see disease, then we'll go out and start vaccinating the rest of them and we'll be fine, right? And then they just say, no. And probably that'll be too late, basically. Basically, yes, it would be too late. And part of that is, you know, much like you have to get your kids boosters for some of their early childhood vaccinations, we've got to give the seals one dose of vaccine, and then give them a booster, you know, three to four weeks later. So that lag time is just a virus can spread too far within that period of time. So our sort of simulation models were able to tell us that if we're going to have, you know, if we're going to have the ability to vaccinate and really keep the population protected from a disease outbreak like this, we've got to do it before the disease ever gets here. And so that's where we came up with then this plan for sort of the pro-vilactic vaccination use. And you have to obviously cover a certain percentage of the seals, you have to get a certain percentage of vaccinations and keep that some X percentage. And roughly what is that? Well, it depends on how many seals and how much contact they're in.  And while we would love to see more among seals, it's nice to deal with a small population because the numbers are really manageable. And so based on a population of about 40, 45 animals on Oahu, we figured to be almost certain we were going to have what we call herd immunity. So that's the number of animals that if you vaccinate this many, most others will be protected because there just aren't enough susceptible animals and the populations are really spread disease very far. And that number is only about 20 to be pretty much certain that we're going to get that herd immunity number. And again, we use these simulations and we say, well, we haven't had this disease yet. So there's uncertainty, right? What if it's more transmissible than we thought? What if it's more deadly than we thought? What if they're in contact more than we thought? And so we can look at those ranges. And so we see like with eight animals, even it's like, oh, quite a few scenarios, you'd be okay. And 15 animals, even more scenarios and by 20 animals, like, yeah, we're going to be okay in most scenarios that get us. That's a great example of the whole uncertainty in science. If you knew all these answers in advance, then we would just fix the problem. So you've essentially then identified roughly 20 seals all around Oahu. And you know that these seals, they are tagged basically. A lot of them are tagged. Some of them have a scar that's distinctive. We've got an amazing network of volunteers that are out combing beaches on an almost daily basis. And boy, they are so good at identifying the seals in their neighborhoods. And it's often the same seal comes back the same place at the same time for weeks at a time. It'd be nice if they were that reliable. Pretty reliable. But they're not on a schedule. Maybe not quite that scheduled. No one's given them a paycheck to show up.  That must be a little trickier, because getting the first time, you have no particular timeframe to it. But once you started a clock ticking on us at work. Yeah, exactly. And I think when we first started and getting the first round of animals, you know, we would do things like say, oh, what's a good day that works for everyone? Well, Tuesday is good. Okay, we're going to go out Tuesday and we're going to find the seals that are around. We're going to vaccinate those seals. Great. Tuesday it is.  And then when it's time for boosters, you just get a call. Right. Oh, I recall it. And she saw this seal at this place, drop everything, go get it. Right. It's now in that window. And so we better jump on it right away. Yeah. Interesting, interesting. I was going to say, I'm sure you guys both have good stories about encounters with seals. But before we get to those, we're going to have to take a short break. So Michelle and Stacey here from NOAA talking about vaccinating the seals. I'm your host, Ethan Allen, Unlegable Science. We'll be right back. I'm Kaui Lucas, host of Hawaii is my mainland every Friday here on Think Tech Hawaii. I also have a blog of the same game at kauilukas.com where you can see all of my past shows. Join me this Friday and every Friday at 3pm. Aloha. Aloha. How are you doing? Welcome to Ubachi Talk. Gordo the techs are here. We're here every Friday from one o'clock till about 1.45 when we talk tech with many, many great guests. I got Andrew the security guy who helps me co-host. And I got Poppy Chulow who comes in once in a while to help us through the show. So please come join Ubachi Talk every Friday. Angus will be here too. So remember, like we say at the end of every show, how you doing? And you're back here on Unlegable Science. I'm your host, Ethan Allen here on Think Tech Hawaii. With me today on Think Tech Studios are Michelle and Stacey from NOAA, Veterinarian Data Analyst, talking about monxial vaccination, all the great reasons to do it and the why's and where for's. And it's a pretty, sounds like a pretty interesting job on all sorts of levels finding out how many monxials vaccinate, when to do it, how to do it. And as we saw in the video clip earlier, it looks like an interesting part of your days when you actually have to go out there and poke them. A little different from the standard doctor's office visit. But I know we had, you had said some other figures to me about that we're showing something, I think about the population dynamics going on. The network? Yes, exactly. Yeah, so this is kind of just what we were just talking about, about deciding how many and which seals to vaccinate. So on the, gosh, I think it's on my left on the screen, the really connected jumble of points there. So that's an actual social network diagram of the monxials on Oahu. So this is based on the actual sightings that we get when people call in and say, I saw this seal at this beach or when our volunteer network fills out, you know, their data of what seals they're seeing and what places we're able to figure out, which seals are in contact with each other. And it turns out over time, most seals on Oahu sort of, there are some sort of hot spots, but seals get around or one seal, you know, meets the seal and gets around to another one. So they're really, really connected. So from a social behavior standpoint, we're like, wow, that's cool. The seals kind of hang out, they get around from a disease standpoint. We look at that and we're like, oh my gosh, every one of those lines is a way that the disease could spread from one seal to another seal. So we're not graph, the points are seals and the lines are connections between them where disease could spread. And so basically what we're doing with vaccinations is we're trying to break up some of the lines in that diagram because if a seal is vaccinated, it can't spread disease from one to the other. And so what we have on the other side, at least on my right side, is that sort of the after diagram. So those gray dots out to the side, those are all the seals that we vaccinated. And so the little connected bit in the middle are the seals that still are susceptible and the level of contacts that remain. And so you can see just looking at, you know, from the before to the after graphic, you can see how much we really took apart that contact network and took apart so many of those pathways where disease could spread through these vaccinations. And so now, but those great spots, the gray dots, there are still seals that are in the population, they're still in contact. So if they're the seal that gets contacted, the chain of potential disease spread just stops. And so that's kind of how herd immunity works and how vaccinating some ends up protecting the whole. And so we were really happy with the outcomes of our vaccination program because we were able to get enough seals that we think we're in a really good position in terms of protecting the whole population with the number we vaccinated. Excellent. So this looks like it's a very complex undertaking because there's lots of people who have to be doing lots of different kinds of things. You've got what sounds like an extensive network of volunteers, you guys with your considerable expertise and multiple skills, obviously. But the program is really, I mean, what you're doing is really part of just a bigger program to protect the monk seal population. And that involves other work. You have researchers who are out in the Northwest Hawaiian Islands where more monk seals live. Actually, the main bulk of the population is out there. Although as we were talking about a little bit before the show, at times you're actually moving seals back and forth. And perhaps you should go into a little bit of the reasoning on that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the reasons that we move seals around is when they need help. So we're fortunate that seals that in the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands where we may only be there for certain months out of the year and be there on board a ship, now we can bring them to a facility on the big island that's run by a partner institution, the Marine Mammal Center. It's called Keikayola and it's a facility where they can actually care for these wild seals until we have the ability to return them to the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands. So any seals that come down from the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands are always returned back to that region of the archipelago. And it really has enhanced our ability to target one of the other threats to the population, which is malnutrition. All right. And that will be particularly in the younger seals, right? When they're just finished nursing but they're not really adults yet. They're probably not as good at getting food. They may be a little more vulnerable to predation. And some of them just aren't quite up for it, right? Well, and they also just get out-competed when they're smaller. They're getting out-competed by in the archipelago out there. There's a lot of large jacks and sharks, so big fish that are competing with monk seals for food. So the monk seals put the work in to, you know, turning over a piece of coral and getting out an octopus and a shark or a jack will come by and scoop that up instead. So, unfortunately, the little juvenile seals can tend to lose energy, struggling to get their food and not end up with that caloric benefit going back in. So then if you find such a seal, you just, of course, walk up to them quietly and pick them up calmly. Enough of no sack. Kind of what we go for. Well, generally, if they're in bad enough shape to need to come in for assistance, then they actually are not, they're not so feisty that they're difficult to pick up and bring back down. But, you know, they do still present some challenges of what we start to do with them once we get them aboard the ship. And a triage sort of thing is to provide them nutrition through a tube that we put down their throat into their stomach and give them electrolytes and fish slurry, basically a fish smoothie, that sort of thing, just to get their GI tract restarted and that kind of thing. And a fair number of the animals that we do need to treat are actually pups that were not weaned at a high enough birth weight that we think they're likely to survive until the next year. And that's based on a lot of information that's been accrued over time. So we kind of have a good sense as to, you know, if they're a little bit on the small size or really small once they've been at the time of weaning, then we can monitor them for the period that we're out there. And more likely than not, those are the ones that are going to come in as well. Because he'll be out there for a while, so they'll have a chance to check on them sort of repeatedly and make a judgment before you leave, whether you should take them back. And then you say you hand them over to this facility, they keep them for a few months? Yeah, several months again, because we're going to return them to the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, we need a way to get them back out there. And we generally are fortunate enough to have a cruise on the NOAA vessels that go out twice a year. And so those are the primary ways that we're moving these animals back and forth between the wild and rehabilitation. But once in a while the US Coast Guard will ask them to help us out and if they have a mission that they can pair transporting seals with, then they will also help us out. So we have done that a few times as well. Excellent. And so they get this sort of rest and recreation period and gain a lot of weight and are much better able than to survive. That's great because there are only, you say, 1,300 monk seals, that's all there is in the world. That's all there is in the world, and they're all in Hawaii. Yeah. And no historically, this is Hawaii the only place they've been known to live, are there other populations of them elsewhere? There are related species of other monk seals, so there's a Mediterranean monk seal in the Mediterranean. And the closest relative to Hawaiian monk seals were the Caribbean monk seals, but they went extinct, I want to say in the 50s or 60s, the last one was seen. But so they probably, those sort of sister species, probably diverged when Panama closed off the link between the Pacific and the Caribbean. Okay, so they've been isolated here for a long time. They have, yeah. Well, that's great that you guys are keeping their populations going. And there are a lot of kinds of seals though, right? What makes the Hawaiian monk seal special other than just being another kind of seal? You know, I think they're the only really tropical seal. So if you think about other seals that you know of, you know, you're probably thinking about things in cold water environments that are chasing large schools of fish and getting food that way. And so Hawaiian monk seals have a really different existence. And that's one of the reasons we see, you know, they can be sort of living on this edge and we'll see things like nutritional limitation because it's, as it turns out, it's kind of a rough life making it as a tropical seal.  So that's kind of a different thing. And it's just their, their habits in warm water versus a cold water seal are pretty, pretty special for the Hawaiian monk seal. I hadn't thought about that, but it's true. You generally think of seals as floating on ice floes and you see them in association with icebergs and, right, and indeed the famous, the bigger members walruses and all are very strict, an Arctic animal, right? Yeah. Okay. That's great. So when you're, I can make my question asked earlier, how did, how did you sort of get into this end of things? What brought you into this work? I think our stories are probably pretty different. I was very interested in marine mammals for as long as I can remember. And that's probably not news to a lot of viewers out there. I think there are lots of people that at some point or another consider growing up to be a marine biologist. That's what I wanted to do. I actually was fortunate enough to be involved in a lab in North Carolina in college, where I was helping with response to stranded marine mammals along the coastline. And many of those were dead animals. And it really taught me that there's a lot to learn from looking at an animal and trying to understand why it died. It can help you understand the health of the population overall that you're trying to understand. I mean, marine mammals are so cryptic compared to a lot of their terrestrial counterparts. They're very difficult to study because they're in the great big blue. And so that was something that I found really compelling. And it was also something that got me interested in anatomy and physiology and just understanding how animals worked. So those things combined, ultimately, I decided that the way I wanted to go about that was to be a veterinarian. And yeah, I think my path to Hawaiian monk seals was maybe a little more circuitous. I think growing up and all through school, I always really wanted to do things with wildlife conservation and ended up getting into sort of the research side of it because there are just too many fascinating things to learn. And so I ended up jumping around quite a bit in undergrad. I was studying alligators in Louisiana for my masters. I was studying bears and genetics in Alaska. In my PhD, I ended up studying wildlife diseases in deer in the Midwest. And so it just kind of ended up that once I got over here, there was kind of this here's this species and we need to know things about their genetics. We need to know things about diseases and things that affect conservation. So all the puzzle pieces just kind of it. Hey, well, excellent. I want to thank you both for being here. This has been just fascinating to learn about what you do, how you do it and answered a lot of questions that were running around in my head. I hope you've enjoyed the chance to share some of your learning. I'm sure our audience is the better for her. So thank you both and aloha. We'll hope to see you next week on another episode of likable science.


We just came out of the class and it was really good that it made analytics easier to understand, especially in terms of thinking of it as like, why something is happening versus just the numbers. And the four deaf users just have a really great way to get us to understand what it is. It was really great.


So remember that any mathematical problem that is very hard to solve unless you have one crucial piece of information could be used as the basis for a cryptographic system. And with lattice systems, with lattices, we have two very hard problems that are very closely related. And given any lattice with whatever basis we have in any arbitrary vector, we have the two following problems. The closest vector problem to find a lattice vector that minimizes the distance between the given point and the lattice point. And the smallest or shortest vector problem to find the non-zero lattice vector that minimizes the magnitude. And obviously these two are very similar, the only difference between the two is the smallest vector problem is the closest vector problem where we're trying to find the zero vector as our target. And so how do we solve these? Well, the natural inclination is to use something that's called Babay's closest vector algorithm. Now this is what you would expect to do, but this is pretty much the solution that any normal person would expect to find. So why does Babay get his name associated with it? Well he does a further analysis of this algorithm in terms of its efficiency and whether or not it will work under the right conditions. So before we go into that, let's consider this. Let's take some set of vectors and let them be reasonably orthogonal. This is Babay's contribution to the algorithm. So as they are reasonably orthogonal and we'll see why that's important later on. I'm going to find a set of AIs. I'm going to find a linear combination that solves linear combination equal to our given vector. Now note that these are, the coefficients are going to be drawn from the set of real numbers, not the set of integers. So w is not in general a lattice point, but it's close. It is going to be, we can express it as a linear combination of our lattice points where the coefficients might not be integers. Well for each I define bi to be the integer nearest to the corresponding ai. So remember that the lattice itself consists of linear combinations of our basis vectors where the coefficients are integers. So I'll do the obvious thing. I'll pick the integer closest to each of these coefficients, and I'll find the lattice point that corresponds to the AIs, and this lattice point is an approximate solution to my closest vector problem. Alright, so let's try it out. So let's take a lattice that's spanned by these two vectors, 5, 1, and negative 2, 8. Let's find the vector closest to the point 27, 8. Well, do a quick check here. If I look at the angle between our two vectors, well that will be found by the dot product. I'll find that, and it turns out that the cosine of the angle between the two of them is negative point 0, 5, which means that the vectors are pretty close to being orthogonal. So this satisfies our reasonable orthogonality. And I'll solve my equation. This vector has a linear combination of these other two vectors, and that gives me some nice system of vectors, some nice system of two variables and two unknowns. I'll solve it. A1 is 232 over 42. A2 is 13 over 42. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to round these to the nearest integer. B1 is 6. B2 is 0. So this point 6, 5, 1, 0, negative 2, 8, 36 is a vector that is close to 27, 8. Well, why do we need that reasonably orthogonality? Well, let's take a look at another basis for the same lattice. So earlier we determined that 37, 41, 103, 113 is another basis for the same set of lattice points. And I want to find the closest vector to 27, 8. Well, I'll go ahead and solve that equation. 27, 8 is some linear combination of our two basis vectors. And I get solutions negative 53 and 19. But when I try to find where I am with negative 53 and 19, I end up at negative 4, 26. And this is not reasonably close to where I want to be. I want to be at 27, 8. This linear combination puts me at negative 4, negative 26. Now, you may be suspicious that maybe we can't get closer to 27, 8. Well, because I know the lattice point 36 is close by, that's from our previous work, I can actually solve linear combination equal to the nearby lattice point. It turns out that there is a nice solution to that, negative 66, 24. And in fact, if I had not found this solution, 53, 19, but instead found this solution, negative 66, 24, I would have gotten a much closer point to where I want it. Instead, I found something very far away. And that means if you're thinking cryptographically, this is something that has potential for a cryptographic system. Because there is a hard problem. Find the closest vector to 27, 8. There's an easy solution. If I know the reasonably orthogonal basis, I get this point. But if I don't know the reasonably orthogonal basis, if I instead know a different basis for the vector space, then when I try to find the closest vector, I get the wrong value. So here's a hard problem that if I know something additionally becomes an easy problem. And so we have the basis for a cryptographic system, which we'll take a look at next time.


Let's try that again. Okay, welcome to the cross BBO add on indicator webinar here or event, it shouldn't take us too long to go through this webinar here or we are adding a whole slew of new add on indicators within Bookmap, this is one of them. And it's actually very simple but quite nice here because you're able to look at one instrument and then look at the best bid and offer of another instrument on there as well. And I'll go through the use case scenario in just a minute. This is really good for looking at something like multi book within Bookmap for crypto and then seeing maybe price discrepancies in a cross BBO in another exchange or another instrument and then being able to take advantage of that. Just wanted to also mention this week, so tomorrow we're gonna have another add on indicator webinar. It will be on the price levels new add on within Bookmap. And then on Thursday we'll have another one as well which will be on the breakeven point indicator for some nice features in that. And then on Friday, it's gonna be a pro trader webinar at 2 p.m. all of these are at 2 p.m. east coast time with a dud plus on option strategies. Okay, so anyway, let's go through some disclosures here quickly, whoops, hold on a minute, where is it? I know I got it, here it is. General disclosure, all Bookmap limited materials information and presentations are for educational purposes only and should not be considered specific investment advice nor recommendations. The risk disclosure, trading futures, equities and digital currencies involves substantial risk of loss and it's not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. Okay, so let me show you where you can find out more information about this indicator to begin with. All right, first let's go to bookmap.com and here on our website, let's just go to the pricing section, click there and go over the monthly options here and we're gonna scroll down and we can see the digital free version, digital plus which is for digital currencies, global and global plus which connect to all different markets. And then what's the difference between global and global plus is the add-on indicator package. Now this add-on indicator here, cross BBO, as you can see it is available for all three paid versions of bookmap and what this indicator allows you to do.  So click on the more button, go to the bookmap knowledge base. Okay, we go to the knowledge base here, we're gonna go to the add-ons section here, click on that and then in here, all the bookmap add-ons are listed in the left margin here, click on cross BBO, okay. This will explain what it is, it's very simple, it just shows the best bid and offer of another instrument on your chart. And then how to configure it here, this is very, very simple as well. In fact, this should only take a couple of minutes but then I'll go over the use case scenarios in here. And then how to add it in here and then yeah, you can play around with the different colors, et cetera, in here, all right. So not much to cover here, very thin but let's just go through this because we're gonna have maybe some unique events in the near future where I think you might find this cross BBO extremely, extremely useful. All right, so what are we looking at here? Well, let's just scroll ahead here. We're looking at Coinbase, Coinbase Pro, we're looking at BitcoinUSD. So let's go over to actually BitcoinUSD here in our bookmap data, BMD, bookmap data, we are the data provider in this case and it's for this instrument. It is a synthetic instrument that we put together for the multi-book product. If you guys haven't heard about this, I can show you where the webinar is for it but this is a really nice add-on within bookmap. It is able here, I can show you where, there's one here on the cross, let me show you again the add-ons in here. There is a multi-book customizer here and it talks about multi-book in here. However, the one that we're gonna be looking at here is not the customizer but it is a multi-book product and what we're looking at in here is five different exchanges for Bitcoin. In the upper left-hand corner, it's showing BitcoinUSD for Bitstamp, Bitfinex, Coinbase Pro, FTX and Kraken. So these five different exchanges for this one instrument. All right, so that's what the multi-book is showing you to get more objectivity. Okay, there's gonna be the cryptocurrency markets are a bit unique in the sense that there are multiple exchanges. Each broker basically is an exchange in essence. So you're gonna get different prices. You're gonna get different price levels. Now they're all gonna correlate pretty, pretty close but you will see some discrepancies. And what we're gonna look at here, and we're gonna zoom in a little bit and you can look at multiple BBOs here. So let's click on the add-ons configurations for cross-BBO here and you can see what I've done in here. I've chosen the BitcoinUSD for Coinbase Pro and that's what we're looking at here with these colors here. All right, so if I take that off, you're just gonna see BestBid and Offer here for the multi-book product. Let's look again at the one for Coinbase Pro. It is very close to it. It's just loading here, but it is not the same. You're gonna see some discrepancies in here. Not much, it is very, very close but you can see some discrepancies in here with BestBid and Offer. So this way, when you are looking at the instrument, you can utilize BookMap's cross-trading instrument product so you can trade from multi-book, but have those trades routed over to your Coinbase Pro. Here's Coinbase Pro and Bitcoin. All right, so that's a great way to utilize this to have this ability here. Now we've had this functionality, the cross-instruments trading for quite a while and let's go over that scenario for you guys that just to go over that first so you'll get a better understanding of the cross-BBO. Cross-BBO is just showing the BestBid and Offer from the other instrument, but let's go back here, let's go to the ES here and we'll go over, let's get rid of the candlesticks, we'll go over and let's get rid of the, whoops, sorry, sorry guys. There's what I wanted, all right, there we go. Okay, so here we're looking at the ES which is the S&P E-Mini futures product. I also have the MES here. Okay, so let's click on that, let's take a look. So this is the micro contract, it's not the mini contract, it's the E-Micro, not the E-Mini. And there can also be price discrepancies in here every now and then. So now a lot of us, the liquidity in here for the micro contract is a lot of times very kind of strange or hard to read because this is gonna be heavily hedged and a lot of black box trading in here, so arbitrage, et cetera, because it's a micro contract. So high liquidity that's outside of the areas, it's not so bad actually, but it's hard to trade from this chart, all right, that's the point. When we boil it all down to it, it's hard to get maybe insights from this compared to the ES, okay, so here looking at the ES, yeah, we can see, well, high liquidity stain in the order book in some of these areas in here, and this gives us a little bit more insight to what's going on, okay. Now, let's open up the trade control panel here, let's turn it on, and then let's take a look at this cross instruments trading. So we can click on the more, or I'm sorry, this, if you don't see these two buttons up here, this is how you get them, you right click in here somewhere, and then you can look at your panels in here, in fact, let's just hide this panel here, and then we'll right click in here, and we'll add a panel, so we wanna add here, and you can see I've got them all showing except for the cross instruments trading panel, so I'll select that, and here it is here, and right now it says none, so let's click on it, okay, so hold on a minute here, oh, I have to turn it on, okay, first let's turn it on, okay, on either to trading from the dome or the chart or both, and then let's click on this now, should show up, oh no, I gotta select volume, uh-huh, why isn't it showing up, M-E-S, start, okay, well that's interesting, okay, let's just try it with the NQ then, okay, rhythmic, CME, we're gonna look at the NQ, microcontract here, okay, and then now let's go back to the NQ, trade control panel, let's turn on both, and select here, you should be able to select it, trading from the chart, huh, okay, hold on just a minute, I'm doing something wrong, I'm sure of that, and let me go back to maybe you guys in the special events room here, oh, okay, Rob, you tried the price levels indicator this morning, okay, yeah, we'll cover that tomorrow, this should show up, and I'm not sure why it is not, I've got the instrument, this can also work for spread trades as well, you can see here the, okay, Chris, you just tried it a few seconds ago, it's not showing up on your side, only on the chart, in fact, I don't even think you have to have these open, let's just, maybe that's what it is, let's just try closing it, let's go back to it here, and it's very odd, target instrument, should be able to select it, brackets, none of that's gonna matter, yeah, well, anyway, it should show up in here, and you should be able to select it, it's related to the NQ it knows that it's looking for the micro in here, okay, you, okay, T46, you have to have the micro, the mini and micro subscribed to, yeah, I wasn't sure about that, let's see if we can go the opposite way, huh? Yeah, it's still showing up as none, I don't know why, good tool cancel, all of this is good, everything is good in here, gotta turn it on, I know that, in rounding two or away, select one, sorry guys, well anyway, the concept here is very simple, once you select the micro in here, the target instrument and you start, then this will, you can trade from this chart here, and route those trades to the micro contract chart, okay, this is a great feature because the liquidity between these two can be very different here, as you can see, and therefore you can take advantage of the micro or the E-mini contract and the liquidity and the traded volume in there, and compared to the thinner instrument in here, that's not gonna be quite as accurate, well, I shouldn't say accurate, it's just not gonna be quite the same, it's just thinner, and well, not even thinner is the correct word, it's just, it just trades differently, so then in here, now you should be able to select it, once you click start, you'll be warned that this is what you're doing, you're trading from this chart, but not getting filled in here, you're getting filled on the micro contract, alright, so anyway, that's the functionality through the trade control panel, but let's just get back to the best bid and offer in here, what this is showing in here is the best bid and offer of the other instrument, okay, and this one here, it is not showing that in the cross trading, it is only showing the best bid and offer of the E-mini, so we can even put it in here, and we come in here, cross BBO, and we can look at the, where is the micro contract in here, so it's not even recognizing it, this is the issue, oh, there it is, okay, alright, alright, and then let's just select yellow and then blue here, just for kicks, alright, so now you can see it in here, and you can see it, this is gonna be very, very close to it, right, so you can see it's almost identical, so you don't see any price discrepancies, now this is gonna be a pretty tight market with the ES, but let's suppose you're looking at micro crude versus E-mini crude, so that's where you're gonna see maybe some distinctions or gold, and therefore you're gonna see even an heightened edge in here to be able to see that discrepancy and then take the trade, okay, from your E-mini over to the micro, and that's what the cross BBO is all about, okay, so it works for the E-minis, this will work great for, especially, we really like it with this product here, the multi-book product, looking at five different exchanges in here, however, looking at just the Coinbase Pro version, now you can look at the nano contract in here or the regular contract in here in Coinbase Pro, and then you'll be able to use that trading functionality in here with the cross instruments trading as well to trade over into that Coinbase Pro account, okay, so this is a great feature in here to be able to do that, and that's instead of fumbling with two different charts and going over time and again, but anyway, that's what this indicator does, very, very simple, we can just leave it at that, once you load your instruments, you'll have to load them to be able to see them and then you select it in here, now you can also just select last trade, for example, and change the color in here, but you can see the last trade, obviously it's not gonna be, whatever trades on the best bid and offer going back and forth in here, now, why is this different? You're not seeing the transactions in multi-book in here because we're not looking at the same instrument, these transactions are taking place over here in this instrument, right, and that's why, see all of this transaction back and forth in here, right, so and you don't see it here in multi-book, all right, so anyway, these are some of the price discrepancies that, yeah, be able to use this feature to be able to trade into other instruments, related instruments, all right, so let me see if there's any questions in here and sorry about the functionality on that, not sure why, I cannot get it to work, I know this is user error, I haven't used it in a while, but Chris is saying that it is working, he's been using it for quite a while, all right, so yeah, not sure, not sure what it is, anyway guys, let's, we can leave it at that, we can look at some use case scenarios in here and try to understand what's going on, so here we are looking at, let's go back again and look at Bitcoin in the multi-book product, okay, we just traded up into high liquidity up into here and we're looking at the last trade on the Coinbase Pro, yeah, this is a Pro-K, this is a great add-on for the crypto, no question, now again, this is just visualization, you wanna utilize this with the cross trading, all right, it's a really nice feature, I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong in here to be able to see it, anyway, again, you'll be able to trade from here but route those trades over and take a look here, yeah, some of you guys have Coinbase, okay, yeah, well you can see that at sub-second levels these are pretty, I mean, this is one of the exchanges is looking at, it's Coinbase Pro, so it's pretty spot on here, but again, you're gonna be taking the trade from all, getting the insight via the multi-book here, that's the big difference here, right, so let's take a quick look at the disc, if there is any sort of discrepancies between the two, I can pop this into another window here we can go back and forth, okay, big transaction there, sell side in multi-book, okay, and now here it is in Coinbase, see how Coinbase Pro, this liquidity up here didn't really trade or transact, where if we go back to multi-book, yeah, it got pulled as well, and these are tracking very, very closely, yeah, but see how the data's kinda limited in here in the Coinbase Pro, and this algo in here is just, there's a couple of them, they're dominating on the offer, on the bid, and it really makes it a lot harder to read in here, and you can see what I'm talking about here, like this orange line in here is the same player, pulling, adding, pulling, adding, pulling, adding, et cetera, and then there's someone down underneath here as well, doing the same thing in the yellow, okay, with a little less liquidity, and here they are in the current market here too. Yeah, it could be the same player, likely it is, but you can see some differences in the way the algos are performing, a little bit staggered, all right, so anyway, so that's where this one will be more helpful, looking at the multi-book product here in Bookmap, now you can see all the different, five different exchanges in here, and start to understand some distinctions, and not just those two algos really dominating the market making, so anyway guys, just wanted to cover that, I think that's enough, that should go through the process for you guys, be in tune though for this, we'll cover more on it soon, because we're gonna have an event here soon regarding this, so keep your ears open, it should be a lot of fun, and I'll just leave it at that, so yeah, if you have any other questions, you can always reach out to bookmap, or support at bookmap.com, tomorrow we'll go over the price levels, and then on Thursday we'll go over the break-even point, and then Friday we have Doug's event, these are all at 2 p.m., all this week, so we're gonna continue to do these, they've been working out great, people are very, very happy to see these, we've gone over the heat map, we've gone over volume dots, and we've gone over also candlesticks, again today we went over candlesticks, part one and two in our education, hope you guys got something out of that, we may do a lot more education on that instead, considering that, all right, so thanks for coming everybody, and we'll catch up with you tomorrow morning, Jay Trader in the morning, Rain actually for crypto at 830 East Coast, then we have the advanced webinar with Jay Trader, and then at 2 p.m., we'll have the price levels, that's been highly requested, so we'll go over that tomorrow, thanks for coming, and we'll catch up with you guys tomorrow, okay? Take care.


Good day, fellow investors. How to find stocks that will increase seven times in seven years? While researching the paper sector, I research today mostly UPM. I have put a link to my written report of 20 pages that you can read. Just click on the link below. It's free. So no time to do a video, such a long video. But I have found a very interesting smaller company. It's called Altree SGPS. It's a Portuguese eucalyptus pulp producer and they make other things from that. And the stock actually increased seven times over the last seven years. And there are two things that we can learn from that. One, you have to look there where others don't. And secondly, you don't have to buy crazy growth stocks to reach amazing returns. And thirdly, you must not trust the market in telling you whether something is good or bad. So those are three extremely important things we can learn from this. So the company just a boring stock producing pulp from eucalyptus trees in Portugal, processing them into paper pulp, dissolving pulp and biomass. Nothing special, very, very boring. But the stock price went from below one euro in June 2012 to above seven euros, even eight euros just a while ago. So now it's above seven. The current dividend yield is four percent. The price earnings ratio is still around seven. So you might still think it as a bargain even if it is seven times up. The first interesting thing is that nothing special happened over the last seven years. The company just executed on what their initial plans were and pulp prices went up a bit. The management didn't do crazy buybacks, they just paid down that and paid dividends. Over the last seven years, the company lowered its debt a bit. But most importantly, it increased its dividend from zero to 0.25 per share. And the profits didn't even increase that much. They just allocated capital differently as earnings per share went from 0.25 to 0.50. So the 0.40 just last year to 0.73. Number of shares remained stable. The book value increased significantly. But what is very interesting to see is that revenues increased just 50 percent, pulp prices even declined if we compare them to 2012 and operating income also increased just 50 percent. So nothing special, nothing spectacular, nothing we're going to take over the world growth or something like that. Just one of those typical Peter Lynch companies boring under the radar in a country like Portugal that no one wanted to look into in 2012 and the result is staggering. So the key point is that you don't have to find stellar growth stocks to achieve amazing returns, you can find boring profitable stocks to do the same. Seven years ago, it was a 200 million market capitalization company. It was highly leveraged, but they were already working on paying down the debt. The profits were there already. So it was already there. Everything that is there now was already there in 2012. And then going to the market, how the market saw the company, let's imagine that you bought the stock on the same story that developed later in 2010. You would have paid 2.5 euros per share and over the next three years you would have lost 70 percent of your investment because the stock went from 2.5 to below one. Even if you bought in 2007, it went below one twice over the next few years, but still from 2.4 to seven, it's still a good investment in 2010. So don't let the market tell you what is a good investment, really research what's going on and the market might be selling for completely other reasons, which makes it pretty, pretty irrational. So to conclude, take advantage of the market, don't let the market tell you anything about business. To find great investments, you don't need to look at stellar growth stocks. You just need to look at those stocks that will improve a little bit constantly over seven years, pay out dividends and get into onto the market's radar. So sometimes boring is much better than very, very exciting. Looking forward to your comments, please share in the comments if you have some other stocks that have done similarly over the last seven years that we can learn from. Thank you and I'll speak to you in the next episode.