I'm pleased for the boys, we put a lot of work in last week and we lost to a deflected goal. I don't think we deserved to win last week but I don't think we deserved to lose to get points on the board. It early is important for confidence but I thought we played very well. So yeah, please for them. This question is not so much about the game but obviously you've been at Newcastle and you've obviously heard the clubs being taken over by new owners. Even though you're a wanderer, I assume you'd like to see the Jets do well and hopefully this helps them. I would without a doubt. I was at the Newcastle for 11 games. I come in when things weren't working out too well for them but I knew the situation when I made the move with my family and I moved again and that's why I'm here today but I want them to do well. You know there's good people in there, there's good players in there, we know that but you know I think for Australian football in general you don't you know we're trying to build a league you know that's all I've heard since I've come and it's important that we do that and give more young players opportunities so we can't have clubs going under you know we want to add clubs rather than let clubs go under so I think it's an important move obviously people have backed it and so yeah I do want them to do well. Mr. Gary, next question? That was the local hospitality for you for the sidelines. Interesting, there were a few explicit words said and I was like oh okay just be kind listen I can't help that I can't control that it was a bit of fun it's brought emotion in the game I think the game was a very good game of football it's part and parcel of sport you want rivalries you want emotions and you want storylines and I think we got that in one today. What pleased you the most out of your team performance was it the way you moved a born attack or the kind of very stout defensive stuff at the end that enabled you to hold on? I think it's a bit of both Vince I think I think the way we played it was a hard week this week because I'm trying to think what how to break down a team that I built all right because I didn't know what they were going to do whether they're going to do the same or not they got the same players who were playing with confidence because that team when I come to Newcastle I always bought my other table and they managed to get momentum and form and they'll go into this year with momentum and form as well right in high because of the results last year even though it's a new season so I was trying to think what problems we had and teams caused me and try and implement that in my new team which I did I created an overloaded midfield I tried to do that so we can take control of the game but when we did that we worked on opportunities and areas where we can go quickly and transition quickly and I think you know we did that as well a couple of goals called out offside we had numerous chances as well on the attacking side but on the defending side as well sometimes it's just brutally honest hard work roll your sleeves up put your body on the line put your you know body in front of a shot and defend and that's what my players did which is pleasing as well next question you must be pleased with as you said how how well the players put put their bodies on the line are you starting to see a little bit more of the type of football that you're trying to bring to the place I am yes I'm seeing it in training you know we're relevant to the results and managers will get caught up in results sometimes and you know they need a win and you want to win and things like that I focus on breaking that down and how they're performing every day because if you focus on performance results eventually end up coming there was a lot of good stuff in the first game we built on it this week and we played slightly different but they're growing together they've only been together for two weeks through two and a half weeks the majority of the squad because I bought four late additions in so they're getting used to playing together you know we've we've got teams in this league that are very settled as we know and that play naturally you know we're not playing naturally at the moment because we've just never played together but that's the reason why you train and we put on these little phases in training and drills is to get them used to playing together but the way they moved the ball today was pleasing but it's only a start it's three points and we move on for next week's game. Any more questions Pam? Good you can go Daniel if you'd like. Hey Carl, our grads on the win. How important is that win mentally for the players because you lose the opening game there's a lot of talk around all the off-field stuff going into this one obviously there's been a lot of hype around the team because of all the off-season recruits just mentally to stabilise everything everything at the club how important are those three points? I think it's important for players confidence to win a game of football at any level I think you know I focus on performance I focus on what focus on what I can control. It's a lovely saying of controller controllables I can't control the outside influences the outside opinions and views I can control what we do inside and they put a lot of work in over the ten weeks I've been here you know the last three weeks we've ramped it up and and if you look at that and then the result last week it was disappointing we never liked losing a game of football but there were lots of positives but you don't hear a manager say there was positives when they lose a game you have to accept it and you move on but you learn from it and so pleasing for them for their confidence but they played well individually whenever you play a game of football eight nine players need to play at their levels and if they play at their levels you've got a very good chance of winning the game I think last week was five or six for each team and then it was you know a deflected goal today I think a number of players played at their high level performances and that's a minimum requirement I want and I'm trying to build a squad and what's the situation with with Simon Cox reports today he might have to go back to to to the UK due to the birth of his child what's the situation with him and what might that mean for your squad as the season goes on to be fair I don't know the ins and outs of it other than his his partner is in the UK and she's heavily pregnant and we he's here with us and he played tonight and played very well so other than that I don't know obviously he speaks to my bosses in relation to that because it's his first child and it's a very important moment for the family but we also know the current climate with the COVID and restrictions and the UK is getting worse and worse at the moment unfortunately you know it's not as simple as jumping on a plane and going back and then hopping on a plane coming back so there's a number of factors go into that so I don't really know is the answer other than you know and I won't direct him either way because I'm a very family orientated person my family the most important thing in my life he's starting a family and I'm sure he wants to be there for the birth of his child but if he makes a decision not to I fully respect that as well because you know he's paid to play professional football it's just the situation we live in at the moment but as soon as it as soon as I know and get directional that you know as well well I know she's due to give birth well I don't know I've been told around the 12th 13th of February but it's just the first and usually in your first it gets delayed a week or two doesn't it so because there's no apparent c-section I don't think so I don't know and it's not for my business to talk about it so I don't know other than it I think it's due on the middle of February players that kind of stood out to you tonight from Jets from Newcastle yeah I thought listen I thought Newcastle as a whole played very well and they've got obviously got a number of players that it brought in late younger players as well I thought made an impact when they come on and and the usual crew that I worked with of Topper and Roy and Bogues and Stevie and Angus played very well so was I surprised by their performance no they were a very good team they were great to work with when I was here and but I'm working with a new team now he's shown a determination in training and when I got there he was trying to fight to be a scholarship player he hadn't got a contract and I said it's a clean slate whenever a manager goes into a football club and everyone's on the same page and he's continued to work hard from day one he's earned his deal and I just saw the profile in that player suits the way I want to play if we're gonna play back three which we will a number of times this year I need energy and legs in that position and and George you played well last week you played very very well and it was nothing to do with his performance it was just a tactical decision based upon playing against a team that I actually managed for 10 games so I just thought we'd get more joy that way and he proved me right I thought he was exceptional as was Tate


Hello and welcome back to the craft box. My name is Brenton today. We're in episode 4 of the Pirate Whirlwind Privateer Walkthrough. Yikes. Last episode if you haven't checked it out already, we did things and stuff. I don't even know where we're going this way. Wrong way. We're continuing on Moe's questline. No, Moe's questline and we did things and stuff and just all those sort of things. That is very specific, not. But yeah basically, yeah. Pretty much what we did. So yeah if you haven't checked that out go do that now. But today we are in the Marie Sebastian looking for the floating Dutchman. Yeah, hopefully this episode will be better than the Musketeer one that we did about two years ago. Yeah, probably.  So yeah, we'll see how this one turns out. See these are the first guys we have to fight. They're kind of just random kind of ghostly things. What do you have like? I hope it was you dude. That's fine. Yeah, so just kind of... This fight is usually quite easy. It's the last one that's quite hard. Yeah, let's actually see. Okay, it was exactly... Um, number five. I hated number five. Was it even number five? Yeah, it was number five, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. 2016 May. Last year. That's crazy. Yeah, so what are we gonna do here? We are going to... You and you. You can go on him and you can go on him. Just try and get some of these guys out. Really nice way out here. Okay. Oh, the dodge. Unlucky. Some of these like ghostly sounds are kind of what we're like. I don't really like it, but it's kind of weird. Like all this laughing. It's kind of creepy. Um, what are we gonna do? You're on like three health. You're on like 26 health. What do you have? You have return fires. So just in case. We'll kill at least two, hopefully. Okay. Yep, there we go. You did. Double tap. Yeah, boy. She had double tap, too. That'd be great, but we won't get that for a while. Oh, God. I'm dying, man. Gonna have to heal up. Um, yeah, let's heal.  Sure, why not? Not a super heal, but we still got a lot of health, which is good. Um, yeah, this dungeon is kind of the hardest of all of them, I feel. Um, just because of the floating Dutchman at the end who cheats, which is kind of annoying, but yeah. Oh, God. There's just so many privateers as well, so it's like kind of hard. Ooh, uh, not privateers. Melee units are not, like, swashbucklers is what I was trying to say. Um, I'm just so good at this game, you know? Amazing. 11 out of 10, I think. Boom, boom, boom, boom. 12. Okay, nearly did. Okay, you're gonna hit. Oh, God. Rip. Rip me. Yup. Haha, lucky rip I was. Thank you for killing him. Good job. How much health do you have? You have exactly 15.  Okay, attack.  This is where we heal twice. Um, okay, refresh. And nice wee cheeky boom, boom. Yes, okay, not quite dead yet. Yes, good job. Good job, Dodge. Good job. And boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I'm done. Yay, there we go, fantastic. That one is quite a hard battle sometimes. Especially if you're like low level like me, yay. Yup, that makes sense. Okay, what's here? Just more of them. Except these guys aren't ghosts. They're more undead. We'll do that, sure. First witch doctor we've faced. We don't need to face many witch doctors, which is kind of sad. Um, yeah. I wish we kind of faced more witch doctors, but I don't want them to see it like really easily. Um, but yeah. Heaps of musketeers and everyone else. Pudgeteers not as much either, but heaps of not many witch doctors, which is kind of sad. But you know, understandable I suppose. We'll do you, you can go on at him, and you can continue shooting him. Oh, thank you. Mmm, that's a bit dodgy. Bum bum bum bum. Ooh, nice. Nice dodge there, he's got really low accuracy. Jay is fun dodging. I don't think I have much dodge. Bum bum bum bum. Just continue. Just continue, why not? Okay, nice. Dude, as long as everyone hurts, you know, we're fine. Yay, one down. Two to go. Who should we go for? Let's go for, done you've got the new claw stealth.   Okay, and what are we going to do now. We will do this... Oops, nice. Nice. we go you're dead bye one left yeah that's a good idea because you have really bad accuracy apparently done there we go oh unlucky dodge I've dodged literally like all the desserts okay turn the tide so bad what the hell like how am I dodging everything I'm like I've got like no dodge I'm surprised really really surprised to be honest yay there we go easy peasy that one was far easier what is my dodge like a chicken just sick what is my dodge dodge is 10 mm-hmm he must have really low accuracy whoo yeah let us hit on down okay next battle done dadun dadun bum bum okay um what do we got here let us do that and we will do that sure why not we'll do that and that done fantastic okay okay nice they have like no health which is good so don't attack fantastic dodge unlucky unlucky that's pretty good that's pretty good don't don't don't don't don't hello that did a lot geez we're at Bonnie okay well let us let's just go for you I suppose you have repel borders so I'm not gonna go there in fact we're gonna go up do you have repel borders you do okay there's really like no good way to do this we'll go up there sure why not we will just go like that I suppose and we'll go like that done whoo fantastic cheeky oh well oh well that's fine it's fine fantastic okay that's a lot fantastic slow them all down just in case they want to move they can't and so they get less dodge fantastic really okay bum bum bum bum okay and what are we going to do now we will hit you you actually you sure why not we'll do that see how that does okay that was good that was really good surprisingly if we create that would have been oh well trying to get that double tap from Bonnie would be nice oh rip rip in it didn't realize here that little elf otherwise I would have healed him oh well maybe I should focus on the health of my companions a bit more well you've got repel borders don't you we'll go for you go for you and you sure okay you're good bye and you're good bye and you have now this off by nine fantastic okay and you're at imparting short okay well we can only do that so we'll do that why not okay okay running out of health uh we are going to done okay if he doesn't dodge yay we did it fantastic fantastic didn't even die lost one companion but didn't even die amazing we did that we found the crew now to get that a long one minute okay that's fine yeah I think we're full yes we're full fantastic okay perdition pirates you're never leaving well we're just gonna go why not we'll um use action for once is it yeah there's a egg I always forget like which one it is for like the starting companions you know what we can get both of them that would be good we'll do that because I have to go a long way anyway go there and go there done I suppose that's good we'll see how this goes not overly confident but we'll see we'll see okay and here we go what are we getting here okay yeah they have to go a long way so that's fine we can do you have repoboders no you don't you have repost well we'll just go up for you I suppose put those two on him yeah I'm lucky nope okay that's fine he does a lot of damage geez okay you're very dodgy geez swashbucklers for you okay no okay the undead rip emet I need you okay um I actually we're gonna go on you we're gonna also go on we'll go on you for this one um okay let's see how this goes oh geez my accuracy works okay and that's cool okay that's fine didn't dodge that one that's good oh no please don't please don't epic no why that did a lot of damage it is not fair okay rip mark um do that okay this is gonna go badly I already know I need a bit of gear but this is fine we'll be fine hopefully okay don't okay okay that's fine um can you like dodge that would be fantastic honestly thank you okay egg will die but I don't care because he's level three so I expect him to die um sure sure why not okay turn the tidy young just as well it works but as long as he doesn't block fantastic yay okay yikes need to heal oh that did a lot geez what the hell what the hell um okay I'm gonna heal me um you can hurt you can heal yourself you can hurt dumb see how much this doesn't do epic nice that's a lot thing testing as long as our pirate doesn't know we should be fine Bonnie's also kind of crucial so might as well heal her um the other things kind of just die I suppose yeah I don't really care about at all um you I do care about you but sacrifices have to be done um eggs dead next and we can't heal him which is understandable but we'll try done we'll see how that does okay that did nothing but I've got minus dodge so they can't dodge fantastic and you're nearly dead finally egg is dead unfortunately dodge thank you okay we're dead Ripperoni this won't go too well Emma does just so good you know like such a shame we'll just continue going for you okay cool you're dead fantastic um now we can focus on these guys don't you dare epic epic is so mean so unfair let me go up here thank you for the dodge no dodge unfortunate but it's fine we'll see how we go we're probably gonna fail this but that's fine um rip riparoni we're dead we can't we can't do this super that maybe um yeah we're screwed I think yep we're screwed okay I'll be back in just a sec once I've done this battle okay I am back just finishing off this battle now um yeah I've equipped some new gear which is kind of good um and by kind of good I mean it's pretty good so yeah um yeah um I also equipped my pet that I had transferred from my witch doctor I think um one of my old pets um which is like level 51 so it's like kind of OP at this level um especially in like the really early stages like does like all of their health in like no time um let's do this one no not you we want to do you we're gonna put you up there I suppose um yeah we'll just move there sure um so yeah it does a lot of damage which is pretty good yeah I also equipped some gear I have a bit more strength and a bit more health so I thought why not why not I didn't buy it I just had drops of it so you know just the normal sort of stuff oh hello you're cheeky little thing jumping all over the place what the hell what the hell what the hool no thank you don't need you jumping all over the place we'll um no we won't do that now we'll just you know we'll hit you sure done okay I'm just trying to like focus kind of on just one person at a time I think at this stage is probably the best um usually I don't too much but I think for these kind of battles where it's slightly harder I'm just gonna do that um okay hello um okay those two won't bother us for a while um but these guys we'll do that sure I'm also trying to get out like one or two before we get the next kind of wave of them I'm kind of yeah I think that the slowness that Emmett gives us is actually really really beneficial um if you put it on like the furthest away people um you can actually do like it slows them down a lot like they can only move like three squares at a time which is fantastic um so yeah um and then you just have time to kill it one lot before you get the next do that sure two on two and two I suppose will work yay okay block that's unfortunate hello um yeah you're not gonna throw away okay rip Emmett Emmett nearly died last time as well he was on like one health he clutched somehow um so I was very proud of that uh yeah we'll do that sure we're done both on them I suppose it's good just so we can definitely try and kill both you are definitely young which is good two lift blocked why is Emmett getting blocked a lot I don't know okay I need to heal because I'm dying yay um well I'll heal myself you can go home you actually we won't go on you you and you can go home sure mega heal man full health nearly fantastic okay yay epic fantastic there we go look at that that's amazing yay you're dead not quite dead unlucky well he's dead now so that's good look at that fantastic you can't block everyone so so saying if you blocked everyone that would be funny um okay there we go that was not too bad up the ladder what's the diddly hook I wonder um so you're Millie is the pit that will be joining us for a bit um until I probably yeah I mean yeah slash your weapon we could use that that's actually not bad that's actually better we use that we use that hook a deadly hook um okay so for this battle um the best thing to do is to take out the flying Dutchman as soon as possible and you can't let him kill any of your companions hard I know but that's what you have to do um we're gonna slow you guys down um gonna move up to there um I know on my musketeer I struggled with this battle for the first try um he also if you get into his radius he will um do the whole sort of um I'm gonna kill you sort of thing and he will like nearly kill you he'll put his like plague on you or something along those lines and all like the green thing that he's like floating in yeah it's kind of disgusting um but it like goes on to you and ugh don't want that Millie thank you yes okay um we'll move up here low key kind of just want to go for it you know um oh can we not shoot around there we can okay cool we'll um no I don't want to destroy my barrier done we'll do that we'll see how this works out I'll be right behind the much onus so basically just try and focus the flying Dutchman as soon as possible um is my best advice you can't let anybody die basically because if they die well that's unfortunate there we go now we've basically all got it yay fantastic Ripple borders thank the mega having that is fantastic didn't do much but you tried okay I don't want to be fighting much onus with myself I don't know if you die if that counts but there we go thank you Millie told you Millie is pretty good Millie is like OP um one dead hmm boop and boop and I mean we're just gonna go like that sure done uh he's probably dead um and by probably I mean he did fantastic um so there we go basically now we'll just kill everyone else and all should be fine yeah it's not too hard to do this battle if you kind of just target the flying Dutchman ASAP just anytime Millie attacks rip um okay can you like go there that'd be fantastic um we're gonna do that sure why not and we will heal you sure why not just because we can why not we'll hope that um Millie kind of does some work Millie is actually like the best I think Millie's fantastic I love Millie Millie's great okay um death she's so fast as well like it's such a speedy speedy jackalope okay here we go fantastic that is and now we have the hook I believe Captain Gordon and Wilhelmina will be pleased one buster too okay I think we have to go back to Buster the crab we do so we're gonna go back to Ska-Lyzen um and yeah we're just gonna finish up this episode I mean might as well um kind of yeah I mean I don't want this series to be too long but I also kind of want to just kind of do as much as possible on camera just for I don't know why but I just kind of do um can we go through maybe not maybe we can't oh hello I haven't hit that bug for a while hmm I know I've been getting it for a wee while but okay bubba da bum oh hello you have good check your notification um actually um today when I'm recording this is actually parent one one's birthday and we got a we got all of these things um from like a free code which you should go to what do we get we didn't even get any companions I'm triggered um we get like anything cool oh we got all but no various death orders that to be equipped oh we equipped it whoops um uh okay well that is a oh yeah that on the shitty staffy one yeah um it's like bad but you know that's why um I should have probably opened it on my witch doctor but you know that's cool we are going to equip back the correct weapon of uh did the hook what's that when did I get that maybe just that better I'm so confused I don't even know when I got that where did I leave my mark do I even have them I don't even have a mark good job okay let us get on back in fact I will be back once I'm at willamina just because it's a wee fair way okay I am back and we are talking to willamina willamina and we'll go back to moe and I think fingers crossed we level up I don't we may thank you yep we're leveling up 500 we only need like 100 so fantastic we are leveling up today we can go and get new stuff from our trainer as well which is cool so let us talk to moe hello I'm not listening to dialogue I always forget that I always forget that I'm not listening to dialogue geez I'm so bad at this okay there we go yay double up fantastic for training points we will train up um if you can't even go to one level you can though um new talent we will give you you you probably will go tough just to give you some more health we'll also replace you Bonnie is 80s yes yeah you're good um you have first strike and 10 the title okay and we will you can't yeah um I think we're level seven five or six level six can we learn anything I don't think we can we'll check why not it's free to go there so who knows why not you know bum bum bum bum bum bum it's also not too far away which is great great thing about privateer and buccaneer like the two best because they're like the closest um hello what can we learn can you know level seven okay next level and then eight nine ten ten um okay I want to see what epics we learn I think I've already looked at it but um elusive pirate what the hell is loud oh god three generation good job um elusive and pirate what else do you think would be good this is actually really cool um okay elusive and pirate I'm kind of just like thinking what other classes I should go into and like get things from I'm thinking possibly definitely going to learn stuff from the secret trainer I know that privateer is kind of weird because like I don't really know what to learn from like these sort of schools like what do you have you have tough which we learn um pirate which we learn you just need to look for things that are like not free um loud we learn pirate pirate like I don't know if we want to learn pirate though because like ship battles aren't them maybe we will learn well I suppose we learn pirate too so might as well just get pirate three from buccaneer I suppose um what does swashbuckler have I know we probably won't learn any we definitely won't learn witch doctor stuff because I don't see me going stuffy privateer I mean we could because we do get weapons that require will but I just don't think I want to do that kind of don't want to do range I'm kind of thinking we should get walking shadows probably um fast maybe extra maybe maybe rough and fast would be kind of nice from here pirate okay just pirate okay we can't learn oh we can't learn like repost or anything maybe we have to go through the secret trainer for that um maybe rough and fast would be kind of cool to have um rough and fast might be nice so we get extra damage I might do rough and fast what does fast require stabby weapons what does fast to require um fast to requires dodgy rough and stabby too I mean we'll see we'll see if you have any suggestions let me know down in the comments below um of what I should get I can't remember what the um see the melee secret trainers I'll look at that off camera um but anyway thank you for watching next episode we will continue on with probably jack's quest I'm just gonna do I don't know I kind of want to do jack's quest I want to do many's last for some reason I don't know I just always do that at the start and it's kind of like boring I want to do this one next I think um see you anyway thank you for watching to leave a like and subscribe and if you've already subscribed press the little bell so know exactly when I post another video and remember craft outside we're just gonna get this the box 20 gold that's so bad


The event is a sidewalk chalk event and it is for children from ages four up to 18 years of age and they will come to City Park or they can call or message me on Facebook on the City Park Facebook page and reserve their spot to come down and use the chalk to make an art that is Christmas themed and then on spot they will be judged and it's going to split up in age groups and so each age group will have one winner and that winner will get gifts from the local businesses downtown as well as car fees down right above the city.


Can everybody hear me in the back? Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to Social Sector Transformation through Pay for Success. My name is Ian Galloway. I'm a researcher and the Oregon Field Manager for the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco. We have only 60 minutes, and we have an all-star cast on the panel today, so I'm going to try to get through this intro as quickly as possible. But I thought I'd spend just two minutes, very quickly, on what Pay for Success is for those of you who are not yet initiated into the movement. So let me just start by saying the fundamental transformation with Pay for Success is beginning to pay for outcomes as opposed to promising programs, which has historically been the way that we've funded much of the social sector. The reason for that is that even though we have a lot of evidence-based programs, there tends to be a gap between the promise of that program and the outcomes that they produce. And funders, particularly government, are increasingly getting frustrated with that. So they are now experimenting with this new approach called Pay for Success, which basically entails waiting until after the outcome has been delivered to pay for that service. So the nonprofit delivering the service does not get paid until the outcome is delivered, and only if the outcome is delivered as spelled out in a contract between that government and payer and that nonprofit. So that's the fundamental transformation potential of Pay for Success. There's a second component to this, which is equally important. And that is by waiting until the end of a process to pay the nonprofit for an outcome, it creates a funding gap. So that funding gap needs to be filled by an impact investor, because the nonprofit needs to keep the lights on, they need to run the program for the duration of the contract, waiting for the check to arrive from the government and payer when they produce the outcome. So that's when banks, foundations with program-related investments, high-net-worth individuals, impact investors step in, provide the upfront working capital to the nonprofit, and bear the risk, and this is equally important, bear the risk that that nonprofit will fail to produce the outcome that will trigger the success payment at the end of the contract period. So those are the two complementary components of Pay for Success. They're equally transformational, and it's beginning to take the social sector by storm. The folks on the panel today all have experience with this new contracting and financing mechanism. I'm very, very happy to introduce them very quickly. To my left, and going down, we have Carolyn Whistler. She's the co-founder and co-president of Third Sector Capital Partners. Andy Phillips is vice president of the Urban Investment Group at Goldman Sachs. Mary Ellen Wiggins is a senior analyst at the Office of Management and Budget in Washington, D.C. Louis Sheikwin is the executive director of Abode Services, which is the latest nonprofit to enter into a Pay for Success contract. There have been eight projects across the country, and Louis' is the most recent. And then finally, Michael Shaw, who is a program officer at the Kresge Foundation. So welcome all of you. Thanks for participating on this panel. So why don't we just very quickly, if you wouldn't mind sort of going down the row here, just spend a couple minutes describing why it is your organization is involved in Pay for Success and the role that you play in these transactions. Thanks, Ian, and welcome everybody to Socap. For us, why Pay for Success? I think, you know, we live in a world where our problems are getting larger on the social services side, and we are having, facing limited budgets in which to address those problems. And if you look over the past 30 years, we haven't improved on the amount of people in poverty in this country, and we haven't improved on many of the social problems in the developing world and across the world. And we think that, you know, it's not because we don't have enough money, it's because we're investing in things, and at least on a government level, we're investing in programs, and we don't really know if they work or not. We haven't been using data in a way where we can measure results, and we haven't been asking of our government agencies, of our providers, we haven't been asking them to measure and perform and haven't been paying them based on those results. And so we think there's just a huge opportunity. Our problems are getting bigger, our resources are getting smaller, and are constantly limited that we need to do better with the limited resources we have. And so at Third Sector, we're a nonprofit organization that's in the business of helping advise governments and service providers how to change the way they do business and really how to change how they contract for services. So on the government side, how do you think about what's the social outcome that we care about? How can we measure that outcome and define that for a specific population? And then how can we actually put out a contract where we would pay for that outcome? And think about the work that we would do with the service provider to help them measure and improve so we can focus our energies and limited resources on measurably improving the lives of people most in need. So at Third Sector, we are rolling up our sleeves, working, putting together these projects from initial identification of projects all the way to raising the funding and financing to launch and get government and providers thinking about and focused on that results orientation for people most in need. Thanks, Melanie. Hi, everybody. It's wonderful to be here at SoCAP. I think this is my fourth speaker. Can everybody hear? I think you're in mic, maybe. Is my mic not on? There we go. That is awesome. That's great. So lovely to be here to talk about social impact bonds or pay for success. People are often surprised to see someone from Goldman Sachs on a panel where the issue area we're talking about may be early education, recidivism, or chronic homelessness. It's not surprising to me. I sit on a team at Goldman, the Urban Investment Group, which is essentially an impact investing team. We invest both the firms' capital as well as client capital through our social impact fund in projects that provide a tangible and demonstrable social impact as well as have strong financial return. That really is our business model. Since we started about 15 years ago, we've committed about four and a half billion dollars and we're very proud of the results of that work. Up until maybe three or four years ago, the lion's share of those investments were really in the physical infrastructure of neighborhood. So we financed things like affordable housing, mixed income housing, health centers, schools, all the things that we wanna have in our neighborhood, the physical institutions that we wanna have in communities to make them places that we'd all like to live. So for us, when we came upon this opportunity to meet the capital gap that Ian mentioned, it was really an opportunity to say, we're in the business of using private capital to facilitate or drive social impact. We've done it before around real estate. This is a natural extension of that work to provide the working capital for service providers to enter into these pay for success contracts. So we are active investors in this space. It is very early days. There've been eight deals done in the US market so far. We are the lead senior investor on four of those deals and continue to look at investment opportunities in the space. Thanks, Andy. Hello, everyone. It's great to be here. This is actually my very first vocab. So excited to be joining you all today. And on a really simple level, pay for success holds a lot of promise as a way to help communities implement programming that works, very basic. So it can be used to help scale interventions that work, things that investors are really willing to put their dollars behind and do on a bigger scale. It can also be a really great way to take promising interventions that government might not otherwise be able or be ready to implement yet and have them implemented through a pay for success project in order to build more of an evidence base around them and help us really learn more about what does work. And then pay for success also has a really unrelenting focus on outcomes and whether we're really improving the lives of people and of families. So in terms of the federal government, we already work every day. We partner with states and local governments and tribes to make sure that people and communities are really getting critical social services and by supporting really thoughtful and rigorous implementation of pay for success, including evaluating projects as they go to make sure that the outcomes that are seen are really attributable to the intervention that happened and that government really is paying for outcomes. Putting that kind of thought and that kind of rigor into this work is one more way that we can help to really identify and really cultivate tools that communities can then use to make sure that they really are getting the best outcomes for the people and the families in their communities. So the role that the federal government has taken on has several different aspects to it. We do convening, we bring people together to help increase collective knowledge about this work. We've played a funding role and just helped to kind of lead some of the thinking and framing of how pay for success might be implemented in social programs. Great. So we're the eighth project about services. It's been an organization around the Bay Area for 28 years. We started as a very small homeless shelter provider, very typical model throughout the country. It's a model that quite frankly doesn't really work at ending homelessness. So we made a massive shift thanks to the support of some foundations and other supporters to a housing focus about 15 years ago. So when PACE for Success came around, it was a no-brainer for us to jump in in a proof-of-concept sort of role. We're actually pretty damn confident that our project will work. We're three months in and six days, if you're counting. And we're already ahead of the success curve. And confident that that will continue. There's nothing that suggests that it won't. We'll talk later about risk. There's risk involved for us and others. But the real motivation I think for communities and for providers is to change what doesn't work and move towards what does. What doesn't work is the contracting that we normally do with government. There's a starvation component in most contracts that we have with government, where quite frankly, government has 30 to 40% administration overhead and we're supposed to live on something less than 10% and actually perform. That model of PACE for Success offers an opportunity to have a conversation about what is really necessary for a provider to be successful, as opposed to an assumption on the party with all the power, which in our case is often the government entity, to tell us what they think we ought to be able to do it for. So this is a dramatic disruption of a set of assumptions on government. I make that sound adversarial. Quite frankly, in the county that we're working in, Santa Clara County, government led this effort. It's their idea to do PACE for Success because they know it's not working. They're seeing nonprofit social sector entities imploding all around them. And in the meantime, they're not actually using methodology that's making a change, moving the needle with large problems like chronic homelessness. So we're very excited to be in a place where we can participate in disrupting the normal thinking about how to contract and really move the whole community towards what works. In our case, it's about placing people in homes no matter how chronically homeless they are and wrapping around the services that they need. Great. So it's interesting, right? Like, I love these guys. Good job. Thank you. I love these guys. I've gotten to work with most of them and will continue to work with more of them moving forward. And the foundation's really getting after this whole disruptive piece. How do we accelerate the disruption in the social sector and how can we use our resources and our tools to do that? So the Kresge Foundation's been around for 90 years. We have a $3.4 billion endowment. We work, operate nationally to create opportunity for people with low income in America cities. And we see this tool as one of the multiple tools that we can use to transform a human service sector, transform a social sector to be one that's much more oriented towards solutions for people that are sustainable and can give them the opportunity to accelerate their life trajectories. So we've been in a series of deals. We've been and played a number of roles within them and hopefully we'll continue to do that. We've been an investor. We've played for feasibility. We've been a partner. We've been a convener. And that's the role, right? It's to help these folks be the glue that helps these folks operate and move forward with this concept.  For the record, we love you too. Yeah. It's mutual. Caroline, I remember three years ago, the Federal Reserve published a concept paper that you wrote on pay for success. As far as I remember this correctly, there had only been maybe one or two deals internationally and this was completely a new concept for everybody in the United States. How do you explain the rapid acceleration of this idea domestically? We just passed the $80 million investment threshold. Eight deals. We have 50 in some stage of development across the country. In three years, it's incredible. Any thoughts on that? Well, I think the first thought is we actually got it to happen here in the US and not just once, but eight times. So the first thing that I think really helps acceleration is that you show folks that it's possible, right? And the first projects took three, four years from initial idea to conception took a long time to pull together. But what happened when those projects happened is all of a sudden, potential investors who had heard about this idea said, oh, wait a minute, it's actually happening. Is there a pipeline that's coming?  I want to be seen as the innovative government. I want to look at how they're serving young adults better and to be able to do that in my community as well. So there's a little bit of the see it's done there, a little bit of the peer pressure. Part of it is it's an idea that's time has come. There's governments have been collecting data for a long time, talk to the government and say, we got data, you say, that's awesome, what are you using it for? Say, well, we got data. And so it's now, I mean, pay for success is a way for these governments to say, wait a minute, we have data and we're using that to make decisions about how we allocate our resources. And we're using it to monitor how we're better at our jobs and how we encourage nonprofits to be better at our jobs. So I think the first thing is that the projects happened and there was not only interest in seeing how those worked, you could use some of those contract templates and take those to new places. Little bit of the peer pressure that happened but also really gave rise to more of a pipeline of more projects that are coming down the pike. And part I would have to mention that I think the other accelerating factor in addition to real projects, real possibility, the federal government took a real interest in pay for success and has pushed it forward in a couple of really important ways that got the attention of local government in new ways, sometimes we call it money from heaven. But if you're in a city or in a county or a state, just the idea of having a, the Corporation for National and Community Service put out 15 million to do competitions for feasibility. So which governments and providers are interested in looking at feasibility? That generated tons of interest in folks that wanted to take a step from, okay, this is cool too, I'm actually gonna roll up my sleeves and consider this and started to build a broader pipeline. And so I think the federal government has really encouraged that at the local level for through both the social innovation funds, some of their competitions with the Department of Labor and upcoming competitions as well. And what I really love about it, and I think it's one of the things that has appealed to folks in the field, is it creates a space for entrepreneurs to come up with solutions to problems that have been impossible to solve up until this point. And I think it just unlocks a creative potential that has been latent until this point. So that's one of the things I think that's also driving the rise of this tool. Andy, Goldman Sachs has been a leader in pay for success, an early adopter. You mentioned that half of the deals so far have Goldman Sachs as the senior investor. The first project that Goldman Sachs invested in, the Rikers Island Sib, recently was discontinued for lack of results. The nonprofit did not produce the reduction in recidivism that would have triggered a success payment back to Goldman Sachs. Can you tell us a little bit about that project, your thoughts sort of in the aftermath of this and its effect on Goldman's ongoing appetite for pay for success? Sure. So of course it was incredibly disappointing to get those results from the evaluator. And I think in fact most disappointing because to your point, collectively the partners, the investors, the intermediary, the government, the service provider, we all came together because we wanted to solve an incredibly challenging social problem around recidivism for adolescents on Rikers Island. And there's no way to say it's not disappointing that the program didn't achieve that goal. That said, I think we all also walked away from that experience saying while the program intervention didn't solve the problem in the way that we had hoped and expected it would based on our due diligence and our understanding of the investment structure. In fact, the financing mechanism and the notion of pay for success did work. We, all the stakeholders got together at the outset, identified what was the outcome that we thought was both achievable and would get to the results that the city and all of us were hoping for. We put in place a system for measuring those outcomes, for monitoring the program along the way. And then when we had that data from the independent evaluator, the city made a decision based on that data to then shut the program down, which is exactly what you would want this financing mechanism to do. And so while again the program wasn't successful, in fact we feel like the financing mechanism was. As investors, we go into this with our eyes open that there is risk in these deals. And we took a risk in this deal that in this case didn't pay off, but we continue to look at other investment opportunities and really sort of evaluate those on the merits. I will take the opportunity to say that we just this morning released the first year results from our second social impact bond or pay for success investment, which was financing early education in Utah. The really exciting news is that first group of four-year-olds who went to preschool in 2013-2014, gotta get my dates right, was in kindergarten last year, and their outcomes were better than we had anticipated. And so this is, yep. So incredibly exciting because, the program was effective at helping these kids start out in kindergarten on track with their peers. And so the program worked, the financing mechanism worked. That first year was a proof of concept like in Santa Clara County, that then the state passed legislation to be able to expand the effort. And so we're really thrilled with that. And I think with Rikers, obviously we're disappointed the nonprofit didn't deliver the results, but it's a huge win for public policy in my opinion. I can't remember the last time that a government discontinued a program within three years upon immediately finding out that program was not effective based on evidence. So to me it's a huge transformation of government's role in funding the social sector. So I completely agree with you. I'm encouraged by that. And obviously very encouraged about the Utah results. Yeah, just one thing that I will add is, we really feel like the service provider, Osborne Association and Friends of Island Academy delivered that program to the best that that could be delivered in a very complicated operating environment. And I think one of our biggest lessons from this was that we think pay for success and this financing structure is better suited to, again, a case like in Santa Clara County where you have an effective program with a track record or like our program in Utah that can then scale up. In fact, what we were doing on Rikers Island was asking those service providers to take a program that had been effective elsewhere and bring it into an incredibly complex and challenging operating environment. And all the parties in this transaction deserve a huge amount of credit for going first. They invented the model and I think it's not a surprise that there were some stumbling blocks along the way. Mary Ellen, I think sort of reflecting on the potential of the marketplace, this is destined probably to be a fad unless the federal government gets involved in a serious way. Can you talk a little bit about beyond the technical assistance grants that the federal government has already dispersed? Do you see an opportunity for big federal agencies like CMS, for example, Medicare and Medicaid, to step in and start paying for outcomes or are we going to be limited by the natural siloization of the federal government not to put you on the spot? Oh, yeah. Ian, I think that question sounded different when you said it's community. Wow, I so want to hear the answer to that one. No, it's a great question. Thank you and it's when we get a lot. And first of all, let me say thank you to Caroline for the shout out about the federal role and leadership. That's definitely, we feel really lucky to get to be part of helping so many really dedicated people think about how to implement this model as well and what we can really learn from it going forward. So thank you for that. So in terms of a broader federal role and how we can be involved, let me give a little bit of background briefly on some of the things that we've already done. So you mentioned implementation grants. The Social Innovation Funds awarded $12 million that are now supporting feasibility studies or transaction structuring for 43 different projects scattered around the country. So there's a big role being played there in terms of developing a really robust pipeline since you were talking about pipeline earlier. And thinking forward about money, the Social Innovation Fund called the SIF for short also received authority from Congress to spend up to 20% of their funds from a 515 fiscal year that we just ended also on pay for success. And they have until the end of this current fiscal year to do that. So right now I think they're really taking a lot of time to think about what are the lessons to be learned from the implementation grants that are already out there that feasibility studies, the transaction structuring but there is future opportunity there as well. A few other things. The Department of Justice, many of you may already know, got funding from Congress to spend $5 million each in FY 14 and FY 15 on pay for success working with a reentry population and using a permanent supportive housing model. So they're taking that $10 million total. They've been working really hard with the Department of Housing and Urban Development or HUD on a solicitation that relates to pay for success. So keep your eyes peeled because there will also be something coming there. And then in terms of really broad federal funding streams, the Workforce Investment and Opportunity Act also called WIOA or WIOA was recently passed and it does include pay for success like flexibilities in it. It says that local areas can use a certain percentage of their funding for what they call pay for performance contracting but it's really similar to pay for success as long as those contracts are focused on workforce development outcomes and then meet some certain other specifications that are spelled out in the law. So the Departments of Education and Labor are jointly responsible for implementing that law. It's something that's still in the works but that's something that you'll be hearing more about certainly. So that's just kind of the lay of the land in terms of things that have gone on so far going on now. And of course Labor had already awarded $24 million to Massachusetts and New York for projects that are ongoing. So thinking ahead and thinking about things that Congress hasn't already given us money to do the administration has a proposal for a $300 million pay for success incentive fund. So again it hasn't been enacted but it is gaining traction and it really gets to your question. Often we get people coming to us saying you have this really great state or local pay for success project and we know that it's gonna have these really positive impacts on your federal funding stream. Can't you kick in some money? And the idea is that this is still a new concept that we're testing and so what will be most helpful is to have one dedicated fund where people can go and the federal government would have a way to simulate kicking in money for a funding stream that might be affected instead of having to do all of the exploration and digging and looking at authority and looking at appropriateness in every single program where it might apply. So instead of looking at that question that you're asking in the silo of each program it just gives us one place where we can do that testing and then look at what really seems to be work and what really seems to happen. So the incentive fund is really kind of the centerpiece of this administration's proposal to help the government support outcome payments, evaluations, credit enhancement in a really big way. And then of course it's important as we go kind of thinking about your experience on Rikers also to make sure that we're really learning from what happened and so things that we learn in the context of pay for success whether it's about a specific intervention whether it's how to build capacity to really use data to drive decision making or to do performance management making sure that we're applying those lessons outside of the pay for success model as well. And there is such an incredible amount of sophistication around outcomes based payments already at the agency staff level. At least in my experience I feel like I'm constantly bumping into people at various federal agencies and they're pushing me on this and they say we need to make this the new normal. And I will note that that $300 million bill is a bipartisan bill. So this has Republican and Democratic support so there's a reasonably good chance that it may actually pass. Yes and it's also just so people know it's called the social impact partnerships bill. So you might hear it under a different name. There can be a lot of names floating around for this. We gotta get that figured out though. That's one of them, yes. The language. Lewis, you are the latest to dip your toe into the pay for success pool. Just feels like more in a toe. Yeah, to dive in. Hopefully you come up to the surface. What drew you to this, this fund? You mentioned a little bit in your introductory remarks. But what opportunities do you see for, about what challenges and risks do you feel like you're taking on by experimenting with this new approach? Well I think a way to describe viscerally how we got into this initially is my response to Melissa saying there may be a pay for success reentry opportunity out there that I'm gonna have to restrain myself from looking at. Because we certainly think that that model, we do that model at works and we'd love to do more but we shouldn't be because we have enough work right now. So I talked about disruption of government. I think it's also, I've been doing this for 22 years at a Bode and there is a calcification that happens within the social sector that I'm just interested as someone who likes to philosophize from time to time about disrupting how we do our work. And so it's internal as well as external in other words. So just the attracted, and quite frankly, we're headquartered in Fremont. My father was an engineer in high tech. We always bought the first Apple computers when they came out growing up. And the innovation of the Silicon Valley just feels like it's in our DNA. So I think there is a sense of opportunity around innovation that is provided in Pay for Success that's very unique for nonprofits that we don't really have anywhere else. So there's a jumping in in order to do things that we wouldn't normally do. For example, within the project that we're now implementing, we're in relationships that we would never be in otherwise. For example, a nonprofit affordable housing developers really don't like to serve homeless people because their behavior is unpredictable and it's kind of messy. So for years we've sort of been at odds with each other, the homeless service providers and the traditional nonprofit affordable housing developers. Well in this project we're in memos of understanding that commit us to provide a certain level of services and those houses to provide housing units to people who need them. That's a real disruption of something I've seen not work for all the years I've been in this work. Another one in the state of California unfortunately, we've been very slow to use Medicaid to provide services to homeless people as they go into housing. On the east coast there have been waivers that have been put into place that allow providers to bill for services provided to homeless people when they're housed. That seems like a no-brainer because the savings to the healthcare system and to the community as a whole are incredible but we just haven't in California gotten around to applying for that waiver. California now has applied for that waiver and I understand has received the initial indication that they will receive it. We're actually testing it in this project. We are going to be providing services that will be billed as a Medi-Cal services. So there's another intervention that and so I wouldn't normally have those opportunities to do that. I would also say the thing that provides a little risk for us and I'm glad to hear people talk about the New York Rikers Island example and the way I'm hearing it discussed. We need to have room for failure. This is what you get to do in the Silicon Valley. There's startups that are failing every single day. They had a great idea but it just it wasn't its time. Maybe they didn't get the right elements together and they have to move on and their ideas failing within healthy Silicon Valley companies that are getting reflection and massive amount of learning is coming out of that. You know, I mentioned Apple before.  So I think for nonprofits, the risk is that the culture has been up to this point that you get punished for any failure and you don't get rewarded for taking risk and that's completely the wrong dynamic for innovation. So we're very happy to be in an environment where that can change. Really great. Michael, foundations historically have played the role of the incubators of new social sector ideas. I think one of the things that will happen if pay for success achieves any kind of real scale is you're gonna have a lot more risk capital in the innovation sort of social sector innovation space. What effect do you think that will have on the role that foundations will play going forward if the least risky things are being taken up by this mechanism leaving only the most risky things to the philanthropic community? So it's interesting, people have worked with foundations. They'll say if you've met one foundation, you've met one foundation, we're all unique to each other. We all have our own cultures. But what we're seeing is a real transformation in philanthropy as a whole. We're moving from a set of organizations that invest in what's new, what's the new program, what's the flashy thing to investing and looking at and focusing on what works. And we're also focusing more on adaptability and learning. And one of the things that we're learning is that there's a huge vulnerability in our social sector. And so we hear about Rikers, right? That's the hot topic right now and how that's a liability towards this product. But we don't hear as much around another story in New York happened in January, an organization called Feggs, $120 million annual operating budget that served 12,000 people a day and employed 3,000 people, went out of business in about four weeks, really quickly, right? And this is a story that we're gonna start to hear more of across the sector because these organizations are generally operating at 95% highly restrictive public contracts. They, these public contracts are generally underfunded by three to 5% requiring a significant amount of philanthropic subsidy. So philanthropy's role has been confused. We've been coming in and subsidizing the operations of programs rather than the innovation and the risk, which has created another significant problem is we've become risk adverse and more comfortable funding programs. So I think what you're gonna have, what we're gonna have to call upon ourselves to do is be more comfortable with that risk. And I think we'll all have to challenge each other to do that. So at Kresge, we have, we've looked at PFS, Pay for Success, Sibs as a model but not the only model to get towards the outcomes orientation. So not the only thing that can get us towards, away from production contracts and towards performance contracts, we've invested in the Colorado Coalition for the Homeless. We provided them a $3 million enterprise level program related investment attached to, I think it's 10 metrics where if they meet their goals we buy down their interest rate on the PRI that we have. We just launched the Strong Families Fund in partnership with Key Bank and with Goldman Sachs. An $80 million fund that works with low income housing tax credit projects that are providing wraparound services where providing performance dollars that they meet certain metrics. So we're starting to think of performance as a way of doing business and using our capital to leverage outcomes and a little bit more risk rather than looking at continuing to fill the hole of the subsidy and the bad contracts. And I think more of us will start to see the appeal to that. And I'm so glad that you mentioned that there are other ways to do pay for success. The ways, the eight projects that we talk about are sort of one type of pay for success approach, but there are others. As long as you retain that fundamental piece which is rewarding successful outcomes as opposed to paying for promising programs. Lots of ways to do this outside of the conventional social impact bond approach. So I wanna make sure that we leave at least 10 minutes for questions. So we're gonna do a rapid fire round robin here. So transformation can be good and it can be bad. Can you blue sky with us a little bit? And this is safe space. Live stream. Yeah, don't worry about it. Be very candid. To you, what is the best case, what is the best end game for pay for success? What is the utopian end game for pay for success? And what is the dystopian end game for pay for success? What are you concerned about if we take this to scale? Two minutes. So as you mentioned, we have eight projects. The utopia would be that pay for success becomes a part of core operations of government. And when I say corporations, I mean it's this feedback loop of rewarding outcomes and having a movie of impact where providers and government are looking together at being better and improving along the way and rewarding outcomes. And that you have a nonprofit community that is rewarded not for how they do things in a recipe like way, but rewarded for what they achieve. And this is how government does business and how nonprofits do business across the board. Dystopia, I think this is a lot of work. Folks think this is too much work. They think that if a program's not effective that it means they shouldn't do this tool. They think that using data to understand and improve impact is not the right use of data and folks shut down and they remain with the status quo and keep funding what once worked or what we don't know works and we don't make progress on social problems in this country. So I would agree with Carolyn that really for us, the magic in this is the transformation in the social sector and government and that it really is about both driving to outcomes and using that data in real time to do business better. I think Lewis is exactly right. The private sector does this all the time. We get feedback all the time from selling products, other metrics that we use and then use that data to manage getting to the outcomes that we want. And the systems are stacked against the service providers in doing that in part because of the structure of the contracts and so my utopian vision is really about the sort of widespread use of these kinds of outcome-based contracts by government as well as on the investment side creating products that are more scalable, more easily potentially tradable so that we can respond to the growing investor demand in impact investing. And I would also agree with Lewis's contention that if we can actually also help nonprofits to be able to generate net revenues and operate again in the way that private sector businesses have more of the luxury to do, I think that is also a strength along the way. And that part of the utopian vision is you continue to have these new stakeholders at the table. And so when you're talking about things like chronic homelessness, you have folks from financial services companies at the table that are caring about those outcomes too and I think that is gonna drive real social impact. Don't love the dystopic side of things generally. I think where I see the risk is that we as a sort of nascent industry spend so much time trying to construct the perfect deal that the perfect becomes the enemy of the good and that we really can't scale this. And so what is I think right now a great idea that has incredible transformative potential gets put back on the shelf because it's too hard. So I think I wanna end on a high note so I'm gonna start with a dystopia. Oh such a good idea. I agree with a lot of what's been said so I'm gonna really focus in on something I've talked a lot about which is evaluation and learning. So I think in the dystopia what would happen is that pay for success gets implemented in a way where evaluation is pretty lax and where we're not really sure that the intervention that got used is what caused whatever outcomes that are bad happened. We're not really sure whether government is paying or not paying for success and we're not taking the opportunity to really learn more about what's working. So that's the bad news scenario. I think the utopic version is really one where pay for success contracting generally or sort of the financing mechanism in particular is one tool that governments at any level can look to state, local, tribal, federal can look to scale something that does work. Or I know we've maybe seen this a little bit differently on the panel but also to find a way to implement something that is promising and not yet proven and needs more of an evidence base and help build that up and then can really focus on the fundamental skills behind pay for success around working with data and performance measurement and management and evaluation and apply those in these contracts or in these deals and then also in other areas where they're equally important whether it's in social services or in another realm. Well I agree with, so let me just go to dystopia in the interest of time. Ian and I were talking before we came out about the analogy of pay for success to low income tax credits which is one of the reasons my agency got involved in this. We do affordable housing development and we do it because of the reason I gave earlier that those who were doing it basically don't serve the people that we care about primarily. And so I'm concerned that pay for success will have unintended consequences of excluding populations or avoiding social problems that methodology really ends up encouraging, because the methodology encourages a creaming or avoiding difficult questions. Now the irony is the projects that have been chosen nationally have been done in such a way that the focus is on very special needs populations those who actually aren't getting the level of service they need, so that isn't the issue today but if we get to a point where this becomes a commoditized product, it could become something that we avoid serving the poorest of the poor with. I'm worried about that. I'll start with the dystopian. I worry about provider readiness. I worry that as investors show up to the table, as government shows up at the table, as the intermediaries show up at the table that there won't be enough providers who are ready to do this work and will miss our opportunity. I also worry that deals will be constructed around margin and not around impact. I worry that there are sometimes where incrementally better interventions have more margin than incredibly better interventions and that will start moving in that direction. Blue Sky, public sector uptake and better organizations. I worry about this vulnerability of the business models, the continued investment in the product and not in the container of these organizations and how do we make better organizations? Great, thank you for indulging me with the question. So we have about eight minutes left. We have a couple of questions. What I'd like to do actually because we don't have a lot of time and we have a lot of panelists. Let's get two questions back to back and then you guys can answer them as you choose. In the back there, nope, behind you, sorry. And right here, thanks. And in the back there, yep, no, you're turning around. Up, yep. Boris, yes. You, sir. And please, if you answer a question, can you repeat it? That would be helpful. Do you want to name? I can name bonds three through seven. It's a welcome. So in Massachusetts, you have one in homelessness, one in the area of juvenile justice, so that's two. New York State, you also have a project with Center for Employment Opportunities, so that's three. Chicago, you have Pre-K and then you also have Cuyahoga County, which is Cleveland, Ohio, which is a project in family homelessness and child welfare. And those are the projects that have been launched to date. Anybody want to take a stab at the first question? I'll take a stab at that. I think, we haven't said anything about this, but there's an incredible amount of transactional cost. And to echo what Michael just said about capacity, I think I'm sort of just lucky that I have the sort of staff I have at this particular moment to have gone through a process with a level of intensity around the transaction was, we all sort of are in post-traumatic recovery right now because it's an incredible amount of work to get it done. So that's what, from a provider's perspective, I wouldn't be interested in another project right now because of that. But again, I think when I hear Melissa say what a federal government might have communities get involved in rehousing reentry folks, there's a population, a big need, a incredible outcome impact. That's exciting. I can be talked into it. So from an investor perspective, we look for organizations and interventions that have a track record of operating at scale, have strong, like you would with any investing, a strong management team, good systems in place for performance management, professional development and staffing. And so those are the things we're looking for in the service provider and the intervention. There are also needs to always, because these are loans we're making, there has to be a payer at the table. So we get a surprising number of calls from organizations that say, I have a great intervention. Can I do a social impact bond? And I have to remind them that this is a loan. There has to be somebody on the other end of it who's gonna help pay that back through a pay for success contract. And I would add that none of this would happen without the leadership of that payer, so in many cases, government. And you're operating in a political environment where you may lose government leaders, so we really look for leadership at the executive or elected level, but then at the agency level, or the folks in the budget office, in the procurement office, at that Health and Human Services Agency committed, not just to kind of putting together for the press release, then the, you know, shouting out of this intervention, but the implementation, which like huge transaction costs, but these are four to six year projects and you need to have leaders on the non-profit side that are gonna be there and stick through the implementation and on the government side, because they are, it's not just about a contracting process, in many cases it requires government to change how they refer people, government to change their processes in order to allow an organization like ABODE to better triage the population they're serving and to better serve them. So government leadership and non-profit leadership is important. I have to throw in one more thing and that is just a lot of integrity in the deal or in the idea. Lewis, you talked about the idea of creaming and how these early projects have focused on the most vulnerable populations and how important that is, just making sure that their protections in place or performance measures really capture what's happening with the people who are most vulnerable and do most need services so that they don't get left behind in the interest of just getting another person to a good outcome who doesn't need it as much. So I think we have time for two more questions, second row and then there was a question here in the middle, right there, fifth row back. My question really goes to this whole issue of payer readiness. Obviously I'm a service provider, right? So I want to talk about payer readiness and I think that that is important. Is there somebody of work that is being done to get state governments and local governments and county governments to understand this approach because I can absolutely wipe out all of my capability and readiness just getting the payer to understand the story. That's your question. Right here in the middle. Thank you, just wanted to get your thoughts on guarantees for investors. Good, bad, what do you think? Should I take that one? Sure, you might have some say. Yeah. So this question gets asked a lot where typically we've been the senior investor in these deals in the Rikers investment. We benefited from a significant guarantee provided by Bloomberg Philanthropies. In other investments we benefit from subordinate debt from folks like the Fabulous Kresge Foundation and other philanthropists. So what that means in quite simple terms is we get the first dollars that come in to repay us before they get repaid. And for us, because we are what I would call commercial impact investors, we're seeking risk-adjusted returns. And so what those guarantees or that subordinate capital does is help to de-risk the deal so that the returns which have not typically been structured on the part of the payers, which is government, to provide outsized returns so that those returns that we're able to generate through the deal are aligned with what the risk is. That is a pretty common occurrence. So for example, the US Small Business Administration has a program called the 7A Loan Program that provides a 75 to an 85% guarantee for small business loans, for commercial banks who make those loans. It doesn't matter if that is a small business in a low income community, a small business in a high income community, and it doesn't matter the income level or profitability of the company, those guarantees are available from the federal government. Because the government decided that encouraging small business lending was something that was a social good. And so we think that it is a sort of natural occurrence or sort of a help to facilitate this market and the growth, particularly because it's very early days and this is a little bit of uncharted territory. But it also may continue because while maybe two years from now, there will be 40 deals out there and we'll know a lot more about structuring them. What may happen is that Carolyn and her team may come up with an idea that's in a totally new issue area and what will then happen is that will be then a riskier investment. How we will get that done is through bringing lots of folks to the table, forward thinking foundations who are willing to take some of that risk to leverage significant other investment capital. So I respond to that too. Very, very, we're over time and I want to make sure we get to this first question about fair readiness. We use them, we care about them. There's a value to it, right? It's to attract new capital or attract new partners to a project or to a product. But there's a concern, at least for me, that we're creating a... Can you do it in 10 seconds? Yeah. We're almost creating an expectation that that's gonna be there forever. So how do you then at some point wean that off and let the market manage? And so how do you educate governments to do this work really quickly? There's, so third sector is dedicated to that. So there are several organizations that are focused on educating governments and helping them actually implement and test out these projects. We do so through competitions, funded by the federal government and the Social Innovation Fund, which is great. There are also large national government associations that we've partnered with in that competition, National Governors Association, National Association of Counties and National League of Cities that offer workshops, trainings, and are exploring more to try to get governments to learn about what this is and to take that step from exploration to action. So there are resources out there that do that. Please join me in thanking the panel and thank you for coming to the session. Sorry, it's giving me the... Good job. You're welcome.