Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today. We are joined back by our friend Mr. Dan Garza for feisty collecting part two Dan welcome back Part do thank you. Good to have you here, man. Yes. Yes, so Excited to have you back. I kind of knew it was gonna happen because you and I can talk for a long time and there's There's a lot of info. This is super detailed. I think you did a great job on part one real quick Dan Let me let me do something real quick. I want to give we have a patreon shout out my friend Vincent Ward who's been on the podcast a handful of times and just did the zilgen collecting episode Joined up on patreon at the upper tier. So thank you to my friend Vincent Ward I think people know from that episode. We are old friends and and it's really cool So Vincent runs vitalizer drums and that's kind of what he's gonna promote at the end of the episode with the little card He redos speed king pedals and collects and cells and all kinds of cool stuff So thank you to Vincent vitalizer drums for supporting the podcast, but now Dan Let's hop in here. I know you have a couple things you want to touch on first. Yeah About the first one and then we'll move forward with part part.  So a couple quick notes I was talking about Klein and zygen Which translates to marketplace? So let's eBay marketplace and I know you're gonna put a whole whole Load of links and the in the first episode. So that'll be in there Also with the Facebook pages, I really strongly recommend anybody who's interested and and even if you're just looking for a symbol if you want to post a link and one of the Facebook groups, you know, probably the biggest one would be the Pisces symbols new advantage That's one of the biggest ones that there's a couple of more specific groups like the sound creation from the 602 There's a 2002 group. There's one for stambles 404 is 505 But yeah, I strongly recommend even if it's just a question like hey, what should I get or what is you know? It sounds good Yeah, and again, and you're gonna have all those links. So you can just just click on one of those links It just you know and it's moderate I'm moderate a couple of them, but my couple people I know moderate the rest of them. So they're very well run Next thing is the beginning. We're talking about the Production and cast versus sheet bronze Well, the one thing that occurred to me is that there really is a truly cast symbol and those are u-fips Because u-fips uses a rotocasting process Which they literally pour the molten bronze into a spinning mold in this in the center of the mold and It's in the shape of a symbol with the bell and the bow the curve everything Already pre-shaped so they don't have to roll the bronze at all. It's basically it's basically what would be called low pressure cast because there's a A small amount of pressure But just good for casting because it makes it more dense and stronger. Anyways, cool. Yeah You're the thing because we're kind of wrapped at the six or two section. I wanted to touch really briefly in that I Know probably a lot of people are like, oh, well, you know who who plays six or twos There was a period in the late 60s where there was a lot of drummers that you didn't even wouldn't even know or even consider One of them obviously was Ringo You know, he had that 602 medium right in the get back sessions and he had a pair of sound inch hi-hats The other ones obviously Charlie Watts was a 602 player Phil Collins through basically his whole career with Genesis up to Duke. He was playing 602's in some sound creations Bonham played 602's very early on live. We don't know if we recorded. That's something. I know you cover with George Another big 602 player was Keith moan and he played him I believe he played him at Woodstock watching the Woodstock film those are I could see those are 602's and he may have used them on Who's next? I'm not a hundred percent sure Clive Bunker the original drummer for Jethra Tall, you know, aqua long. Yeah, those are 602's Wow, he was a 602 heavy hitters. Yeah, well, I mean that was 1970 71 2002 the big one though that people are totally unaware of is Doug Clifford from credence Clearwater revival and all of those big hits are all 602's and John de Christopher interview and actually asked him because I thought he was playing giant beats But he wasn't he was playing all 602's Bill Boofer during his time with the yes was playing 602's Michael Shrieve in Santana. He played zillions at Woodstock, but in 1970 I've got a video where you could see him and he was also in Pisces book He was a bona fide endorser Mick Fleetwood from Fleetwood Mac Ainsley Dunbar who ended up in Journey before that he was a Frank Zappa. He was playing 602's Bobby Ella Elliot and Holly's Dave Maddox Was in Fairport Convention in the 70s Simon Kurt before he was a bad company was even he was in free He was playing 602's and then the big one which is really shocking is John dens more of the doors Played 602's now. Wow. I know for a large portion of his career played zillions But my understanding and I need verification that he played 602's on LA woman And I have a picture of him from about 68 where he's you could see he's playing a full set of 602's So it could be that he rotated back and forth depending on what was available, you know He may have some gear at home or what what he toured with but he definitely was a 602 player off and on There's a Smother Brothers video. I saw recently where you could clearly see he's playing 602's. Okay, cool The other thing that I was gonna talk to very briefly because I know this is supposed to be about collecting symbols is I mentioned to you earlier, but I didn't mention on this podcast was that I actually was an audio engineer for 10 years I actually have my own studio and I recorded a lot of drummers in those 10 years I learned a lot about audio and and and how drums recorded how drum sound You know in the control room and how much the microphone the mic pre any kind of upward gear and Animal tape because we use animal tape back then this is 92 to 2003 How much it changed the sound of drums for the better But what I was gonna say is that a lot of drummers are like, oh, you know I like my favorite drawer plays these symbols I want I want to get the same model and what you're gonna find out is when you take them home They're not gonna sound like they're recording You know the recording process can't replicate what you hear live regardless of whether it's analog or digital You know it just it's it's it can't The other thing too is I found out very early on when I started playing the drums Was that my drum set sounded very different when I stood in front of it? Then for when I was behind it and the one thing I try to suggest to people is that if you are lucky enough to audition a symbol If you're if you go see a buyer in person have them hit the symbol and walk out of the room and listen down the hall or At a distance because that's gonna give you a better idea of like the frequency balance You know the kind of the wash or the crash You know even with the right symbol to it gives you a much better idea when you're up really close to this to the symbol you're kind of overwhelmed and Your hearing is different to the way that your ears work at a higher sound pressure level than when they do at a Lower sound pressure level. It's called the Fletcher Munson curve Anyways, I think that's about it for for the for the little minutia. Yeah That's all good. And then I think if we're if we're moving forward just to retouch on everyone I mean if you you probably if you're watching this you probably watched part one But in that one we covered a lot of symbol lines. We covered serial numbers. We covered the factories, which all relates to Collectibility and where they came from and just let some good background Dan also has two full history episodes that he's done Which you can find in the description or just look it up on YouTube or wherever the web my website But I believe now we're gonna hear a little bit. We will get back to the 602 I believe we left off on the dark ride correct the 602 dark ride, but you wanted to touch a little bit about US distributors first correct. Yeah, because it's so much that the next three Which is the dark ride the giant beat and the 2002 that the big ones what everybody's been waiting for There's a large portion of of the story about them. That's completely dictated by the distributor. So Quick as quickly as I can the first US distributor that we know of is a company called Dynastar and upstate in Syracuse, New York and They were importing 602s from right about 62 to Early 65 basically right before it would take over now What is really cool about these is like I said the last episode price he used to make a custom stamp for Usually distributors of drum companies and they did that with Dynastar. It was called the Dynastar 602 I would really like to buy one of these or find one of these there was one on reverb about two years ago and I I Should have just bought it on the spot and I did it Yeah, I've only seen one. That's the only one that I've ever seen And they were only sold that way in the US. They also sold a couple of lower lines They did sell stem bulls and Dixie's but I don't think they changed the stamp and that's not really relevant It's not something people were probably going to be looking to collect But that's what it's the big one and that's Ludwig and I know I kind of already went through it quite a bit But the one thing I did miss was that Ludwig actually started to sell an import price to go on first in 1953 before they actually sold any of their symbols and again this original deal was set up by Mikhail Not by Robert and Tumas. This is when Mikhail, you know Before there's a Swiss factory when you have the old word over Pistey There is also I don't have any proof but I've seen more than once a reference and articles that there was some sort of relationship or contact between Mikhail and and Bill June or Bill senior Ludwig before World War two But I I've scoured both the catalogs and I can't find any proof that they sold Any price to go on to any price to symbols? But they're supposedly there was contact the one thing I do know and Robert Pistey interviews He stated that the Ludwig family sent them care packages right after World War two We're talking like 46 47 because there's that two-year period really a three-year period Where there are refugees because they fled Crackle Poland and I think January 45 and they fled into northern Germany and they weren't able to start up again until 47 So you had 45 46 and probably part of 47 so you had a good two and a half year span where They weren't you know, they were basically, you know, you know how it is with refugees Sure. So so the Ludwig family sent them care packages directly I don't know if that was food or clothing or what it was But that means that they knew who the Pistey family was which means they had to have some sort of relationship before World War two even if it was just Mikhail said Bill senior samples, you know, anyways, yeah The big one and this is this is the deal that Mikhail set up Was and I think I went over this in the old podcast was they set up Where Ludwig was going to distribute Stan Bulls with their name on it the three star and that deal was made in 56 and Pistey made a lot of money off of that. I mean it was it was huge for them Quickly going to this because I know we've already been through all of this 602s and about 65 The whole thing with 602s happened because Ivor Arbiter of London who owns a huge music store in London. He's a one who who pushed bill junior to start importing and selling 602s so Bill made a trip with Bobby Eger who is the owner of the pro drum shop in hollywood who was his technical consultant in 64 And it took a trip to the factory to switzerland and that was the setup The uh distributorship and they actually went through the line Pierre Favre Had just started he had started with Pistons 64 and I have pictures which I'll show of Them getting together and testing symbols and you see Pierre like showing Bob You know going through 602s What became of this was that and this is a bill Ludwig's book that Bill and Bob Yeager had decided that The symbols were too thick for the American market and like this is the way bill junior put it So they asked Pisces to go through all the weights and and basically reduce them So basically, you know a medium was born like a thin crash a thin crash is closer to like a Like a paper thin on and on and on and on I believe they did the same thing also with the three stars and then During that period of time. That's also when they switched to the standard You know, so when they premiered 602s on the lower catalog, that's also when they started to to uh self standard Which is still a stamp bowl. They just basically changed the stamp sure Or or emboss is kind of the way we can explain like a metal stamp This week's episode is brought to you by round sound symbols Are you a drummer looking for the perfect symbol to complete your sound? 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So the one thing Surreminds me I forgot to mention uh last week was part when you asked me about Um serial numbers, you're like, well, how do I tell a 72 serial number from it from an 82 serial number? I'm like, oh, well the 82 has pisces in the model name stamped above the serial number, which is true but it totally escaped me that By spring or summer of 81 pisces went to the color colored labels on the symbols And they removed the metal stamp or emboss the logo stamp that all symbols had at that point Right. Um, usually a lot of people refer to as an emboss so they don't mix it up with an ink stamp Yeah, yeah, yeah, which I understand that did get not confusing but I went with the zilgen one It was like our the term stamp. I think of like a ink stamp But emboss makes sense what that's embossed. Yeah, and that's the other thing with with german Well, we'll get to that but the german 2002s is it says made in germany on them in on the stamp Right, and then and then uh, I'll get it with the 2002 so Sure to finish up with Ludwig um, what happened was and this was There's two episodes of pisces history not to get too far off track, but um, there's two episodes that have has given pisces reputation for half a century Which is pisces crack more Pisces crack more than zilgen the two things that I always see is Pisces are sheep run symbols and they crack more than zilgens Those are the two things that I see constantly from drummers online. I've heard for decades Yeah, so There's two instances the second instance. I'll get to a little later But the first instance that started this was Because Ludwig had gone through all of pisces lines and asked them to thin out all their weights to make them thinner We're talking 65 a year after the british invasion And and I there's actually a whole chapter on the wiki about Ludwig where I go into in-depth explaining it But basically what it boils down to is we have thousands of thousands of young drummers in 65 66 67 who are just starting to play the drums They get a new Ludwig drum set and they get a set of you know standards or 602s and they break them because They don't have good technique. They're hard hitters. They don't know how to hit his hit a symbol properly the symbols are mount mounted properly and There was this huge issue Where Ludwig was taking back all of these symbols that are cracking and replacing them and Long story short, there's a there's a Robert Pisces interview that that mr. Fritz conducted and Robert Pisces addresses it it's on the wiki And basically it kind of comes into a he said she said scenario where bill Ludwig in his book says that He'd taken all these symbols back and then Pisces refused to reimburse him and then Robert Pisces says no, we did reimburse him That's not true. Yadda yadda yadda I don't know how long this went on for but it must have gone on for at least several years because What I do know from the for the robert Actually from both the book and the robert pisces interview was that Ludwig done pisces big time And they had a running contract right for production for x amount of symbols per month and Ludwig just stopped ordering You know, they basically they they ghost they ghosted pisces Yeah, they kicked them to the curb. I don't know how it's the same Yeah And I think this happened in 1972 robert pisces talks about how they went through a really difficult time It doesn't stay with year But they went through a really difficult time where they actually had to had to pick up It's in it's in the older podcast where they actually had to do other work That's make symbols just to pay the employees. I remember that. Yeah So I think this is in 72 because the 73 and Ludwig catalog which still shows the full lineup But remember the catalogs are assembled the year before So this catalog would have been put together in 72 now Ludwig Kind of does like odd year catalogs They have a 73 and I'm in 75 catalog, but I don't think there's a 74 catalog The 75 catalog everything's gone except for standards a very small selection and then now they're carrying zillions again Um, and those standards. I'm sure we're just leftovers, you know, because they had they had a ton of them Oh thousands of them. Yeah Um, yeah So I think that the cutoff happened sometime at late 72 also the fact that There's very few b8 Standards or stan opals and I go say in the last episode I have a standard That's made from b8. Um But no serial Because the Swiss factory didn't put serial numbers on those symbols You're inconsistent So it's b8. So it's gotta be at least 71 if not 72, but that was basically it um The next error we run into is rogers cbs and it's interesting because I know your last episode was was Yeah, I talk about rogers with anthony. Yeah, so this is This is the cbs era of rogers. Um What I didn't know until recently was that rogers didn't start distributing Pisces until 1974 So you probably had a two-year span in the us where you had zero pisces Now if we back up just a little bit to Ludwig Ludwig never sold 2002s And that's another indicator that they probably stopped sometime in 72 They never had 2002s in the catalog as far as you know, they never sold 2002s They did sell giant beats But didn't start till 69 for what I could tell from advertising and they initially didn't sell the 24 Which kind of makes sense because 21st giant beats in the us were really rare There were everywhere, but especially in the us. Um, sure and they did sell Basically the full line including gongs the seven sound set the morello set um But yeah, there there was this big hole Uh during that period of time now when rogers did start to sell Uh pisces they only sold 2002s. They didn't sell anything else in 74 And they only sold basically, you know, I think they sold 14 and 15 to chai hats 16 18 20 and 22. That's it medium crash ride 20 in no 24 um in 78 When the sun creation line came out they added sun creations and then they also added 404s They didn't sell 505s, but they did sell 404s and that ties in with the very beginning the last step The ass episode I was telling you about my dude neighbors when those two guys got 404s in 78 Those were rogers distributed 404s and they probably got some of the first ones that were sold in the us So let me ask you while we're on the rogers thing So is there because because as we said it would say Ludwig standard or something like that When you get a 2002 distributed by rogers, was it marked rogers on it clearly or was it just 2002? Yeah, it just had so that Collectibility wise you wouldn't know if it's rogers or one way or just bought at a store on its own It would just be correct 2002 the one thing that you can't be sure of though is that I'm 99.99999 percent positive that they did not sell German 2002s in the us And you can and then you could just tell by the rarity um I mean there are a few here and there Once they're great. Well, you see one on reverb Um, but I I'm almost positive that they were uh, they were imported, you know Either a drummer went to european bottom was like a touring drummer, you know, or maybe picked one up Yeah, or maybe they came in through canada, you know, they're I've seen some odd stuff You know for sale in the us and it's like and I remember I think one of them I talked to guys I would you get this is like, oh, I bought it from this guy from canada, you know Yeah, that makes sense. Sure. Okay. So with so with bronzers, um Very limited, but at least they they were selling a lot of 2002s um Sale creations not so much four fours four four fours all they offered were four kina chai hats 16 18 20 That's it. They only had four sizes Very very limited. Um, no 602s, but you could special order, but it's a hundred day wait Yeah, a long time Never important anything else. No stables. No 505s. No dixies. No nothing um I think I'd have to find an article but in an 81 well an 81 pice to open up the brea distribution center And brea california you say, well, where's brea california brea california is like five or 10 miles north of disneyland So it's basically just north of orange county in l.a county Uh, and it's about if I didn't I didn't tell people the first episode. I live in los angeles so Uh brea is probably about Well without traffic, it's about 25 minutes from me With traffic is probably closer an hour. Um, and I've been I've been there before way way way back in the 90s I went there once Uh, but that's not it's not a place. It's not normally a walking place. No, it's like a Place of business. Yeah Well, it's a distribution center. It's a warehouse. That's where yeah. Yeah all the symbols in the us and I think in north america So u.s. Canada and mexico all come through there uh, and anyway I think what happened is is feisty realized that, uh Obviously the demand in the us was high enough That they could justify opening up the expense of opening up a distribution center And I could tell you again going back to that story when I was a kid I lived in massachusetts for three years. I moved back out of here in the summer of 82 With my buddy and uh, you know, I was in a band with when I was in massachusetts This is the guy that we used to go to e world series to drive the e world series a guitar player So we moved back out here, you know, dude, we're gonna be rock stars totally We're gonna we're gonna cruise the strip cruise all the clubs And the first thing we did was we hit guitar center the old guitar center on sunsets Which if you're if guys are old enough, they know what i'm talking about. That's the old location and Summer 82 I walked in the guitar center. I didn't know That the brand distribution distributions that are existed But what I did knows I walked in there and it was like Valhalla I actually hear angels singing in the background. It's like Yeah, and walking the drum department and it's like you can't imagine The amount of equipment they had the amount of stock. I mean not just cymbals but drums But there was an enormous Pisces display. They had a percussion set which people don't know. I'll show a picture of um They had obviously 2002s. They had 602s. I had never seen 602s before. I'm like no way And there were all colored labels now I knew what the colored labels because I bought two of them in 80 or 81 and 82 in massachusetts from big jd But you know, there's sound creations. I've never seen sound creations before there's there's 505s There's 404s. It's like wow, you know everything so um It was it was a really great time and it was perfect timing because it's somewhere 81 and 82 Was the beginning of the sunset strip in the hair mental scene And if you guys don't know what that is that is all of these hollywood rock bands That came out of that scene and we're talking and I saw all these bands and clubs.  I'm like nice Yeah, they just needed the gig. I'm sure at that point. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so Cool. That's that's your distributors. It's important because that gives you an idea of what symbols were available when In the us and you see it was really slim pickings especially early on And that helps me transition into the 602 dark ride the first thing about the 602 dark ride is That's freddy's brainchild freddy stutter That's all freddy. Can you say who freddy stutter is one more time just for this part two? freddy stutter was their sound of their head of their sound development He worked side by side hand in hand with robert peisty on developing symbols. He started in 1970 In symbol testing he replaced pier fobby pier pier was the head Uh, simple tester and sound developed from 64 to 70 So I think a lot of the 602 sound the seven sound set and even the journal morello symbols I think up here. I think had a lot to do with well, obviously along with robert Sure 7071 is when freddy comes in and freddy is He he calls it electric jazz, but I think we americans do a better jazz fusion And that's what he was into big time and There is I think I said in the first episode. I interviewed freddy last year before he passed away and it was an interview I did with them um On the on the wiki, you know, it was it was an email correspondence over two months, but yeah, you know And freddy was incredibly gracious. He was very patient very kind just You know, I wish I could have met him in person, you know Yes, he unfortunately passed away right after your in august. Yeah, of 2022 um I asked him specifically about the dark ride and sound creation symbols and I just want to read a little quote from the internet He says I told roberts It's the first half of the 70 days that pisces needs a darker sound which will hopefully turn on jazz drummers So far many many jazz drummers were not attracted to pisces because the sound was too bright And too clean for them to be honest I came up with the idea that for the 22 it's dark, right because I wanted to have a symbol like that for myself I bought many different records for robert and the two of us were spending nights With with good beer and good wine Listened to many jazz players and their cymbal sounds tony williams steve gad al foster elvin jones This helped robert understand what sound I was looking for Hmm. So he was really cool that the the impetus behind developing this now Jack D. Jeanette was one of their main or the I the other guy was freddy about he was one of them the the other Uh factor where they would give jack's sample.  He'd be a beta tester So he was who would know better than the drummer who's actually out there playing Yeah, the in the american market, you know, and that's style of music So Basically the dark ride was I would say again, this is just my educated guess like 50 freddy 25 robert robert 25 jack, you know, but it's you know talking to about The dark ride inside creation series, you could see that was that was his thing. He really really really, you know so So the dark ride was a 602 simple only 22 inches Um, I think the weight was was close to a 22 and 602 heavy Think it was they're very similar. They are between I I'd have to look it up. It's on the wiki It's either it's either between a medium ride and a heavy or leaning towards a heavy weight um Sam alloy same bell um It's basically the hammering and milating that's different and it's very different is people know it you'd see it's very heavy um In europe because 602s were sold everywhere. That was a 602 dark ride In the u.s. What rogers did Was they actually listed the dark ride as a 2002? Even though even though it was a b20 symbol, so I have a picture. Yeah, I think a catalog listed from 77 And you'll see how it says dark ride among the 2002s um So With the european uh dark rides There was no difference, you know, this is the black label era So they had they had what was called the outline stamp, right the standard 602 outlines down in the us because They weren't sold in 602s and actually you were asking me about If pisces ever made a custom stamp for rogers, I guess they actually did Not what the rogers stand, but what the dark ride what they did is they left off formula six and two off the emboss or metal stamp And they actually used The archaic 602 stamp, which is the e over trade stamp So when you see these early dark rides 75 76 77 you'll see that old archaic stamp um Once you get to the sound creations, obviously then you get all you get a whole new stamp But my understanding and there's probably there's a lot of dark ride experts on The facebook forums that probably know more about this I think where they transitioned the sound creations initially in 78 It was the same symbol their changes along the way 75 76 77 those three years under rogers You can see changes in the hammering Hmm interesting and when you get to 78 I think maybe the kinder had settled down on and settled more for a standard And you'll see that character the sound creation line to 84 Where I think the hammering is pretty consistent for those six years. I'm starting to get into sound creations now Well, where are we in the level of collectability nowadays with these these 602 dark rides? Are these like oh, yeah, pretty much. Yeah Yeah, I mean a good one one that still has the ink if it if it's a rogers Yeah, well, well, I mean if any 602 dark rides going to be a rogers distributed dark ride Well, that's not true because if you get it from europe, it won't be But but that time period if you get a us one or whatever would be distributed Yeah, if it's got if it's got ink if it's all it's ink and it's clean I mean you could probably get easily a thousand bucks for it Wow So, I mean it's you're getting into like case zilgen territory with those So sure But it's it's a unique symbol.  It's not for everybody, you know, you know, if I could afford it I I would probably own one you know Yeah, but jazz rides I think in general fall into that category of like they're really rare, but like you might not like it Like I'm I find some rides. I'm like, wow, I don't like that.  It was a medium ride or even a heavy weight symbol. So You know, it has a strong bell and has a really strong ping. It's dark But it's not, you know, a comparable 22 keys zilgen would be much much lighter Much lighter. Gotcha, you know, definitely. All right, definitely the big collectible.  The famous giant beats.  It's more kind of like a I don't know like an off-white tan uh color At nine o'clock, it says giant beat and those are what are called the white labels and Those ran from 67 to 72 and those don't have serials that I know of because they They changed to the black labels Right when they're starting to play serial numbers. So my guess is that the, um White label giant beats never had a serial. So Identifying giant beats the majority of obviously the ink has gone um, the easiest way to identify him is by the stamp the emboss And The white labels have what kind of looks like a 602 stamp. It's the same format But the piscy is below the star and crescent moon in rays and That format is actually very similar to the Ludwig standard stamp format um I don't know why they chose that format. Uh, I mean it's It's it's it's cool, but they changed it when you when they went to the black label And what's really strange is With the black label starting in 72 um They changed the embosser stamp and then went to the e over trade stamp. So that's the old archaic e over trade Uh, it doesn't say obviously formula 602 You have the star and crescent moon the rays the robert piscy signature and then made in switzerland So they just basically picked up the old 602 stamp and put it on black labels What doesn't make sense is why would they use basically a newer or redesigned stamp on the white labels and then change it and go to an older stamp for the black labels, but that's kind of Yeah, yeah, Piscy kind of moves in weird and mysterious ways sometimes some of the stuff they do well, it seems like like no one Thinks if you're working there that maybe people won't care or notice when of course guys like you and the piscy You know symbol fans notice, but Yeah, you're right. It is mysterious, but could have just been something totally random I mean, I think they made the change because there was a Substantial change in the symbol itself I don't Again, I you know forgive me for not doing enough research, but I think the weights were even slightly different between the white labels and black labels Uh, I think they sound a little different.  I think those are probably black labels Um and and physical graffiti Um Or no, I'm sorry Houses of the holy houses of the holy or black labels The thing about giant beats is weird is that I was looking at the catalog of their night for this episode I was trying to do a little more research They were priced lower than 2002 student that same period of time. They're 17 cheaper according to my calculator I'm trying to figure with an equivalent today. I think basically these were kind of Like almost fashionable. It's like, you know It was for a particular style of music um Not to say that they were cheaply made but I think that They were kind of a a kind of an oddball series Compared to the giant beats are yeah compared to the 2002s I mean, they were kind of in really a stepping stone to the 2002 Um, and they weren't really made that long They're made from 67 to 74 So you're talking seven years and Ludwig didn't start selling until 69 in the u.s. So there's just there's not a lot of them and there's not a lot in europe either You know, what's interesting is that um, I believe and I think we'd get into this a little later with with, um, european and and Japanese distributors pearl soap giant beats in japan And I actually have some pictures of some japanese giant beats and the one thing that's interesting The giant beat hi-hats the japanese giant beat hi-hats have a t and a b To denote top and bottom And i've never seen that before but i've seen a couple pairs of japanese giant beats that have that so for whatever reason They did that for the japanese market Maybe pearl asked them to do that to not be I mean because normally you would just tell by one's heavier The heavier one goes on the bottom or it would say top or bottom or yeah, I mean Sure, I mean when even pre-serials they had the red on three o'clock they had the red eight They would tell you the weight if it was like a thin thin crash or medium or a medium ride Or it would say top I had bottom hi-hat so you'd know, you know, which orientation To put them in as far as collecting goes I know they're really popular. I mean people love to collect them. Um The one big problem with them is is I don't know what they I don't know if they use a colored lacquer. They do something To change the color to make them more brown I've never been able to figure out what it is But the the drawback is if you try to clean them You're gonna take that off and they're gonna end up looking like any other b8 symbol, you know, they're gonna be orange So yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's so don't clean them or figure out a solution to not Yeah, I mean you could do stuff with with soap and water where you just basically get rid of the dirt and oil And you're not doing anything abrasive You know, but that kind of sure it's a saver for later for the cleaning that section. Sure. Yeah, um The other thing that I've seen and uh, I actually was just looking the other night um, there's a list seen in on uh I think it's german ebay the guys guys got a 20 inch giant beat a white label and he's asking $600 for it And I actually I actually saved the pictures because it's got all this edge damage Big old chunks on the edge where it's been Something's falling on it or he's dropped it on something. I mean and the bell has got dings in it where you know He probably dropped the symbol upside down on something. I mean he did it.  I I really like the reissues actually I think they're really cool because I played 2002 model life. So giant beats are kind of the kind of a gentler 2002 You know, they're mellower like I am with age, you know, yeah, yeah, they they mellow out a little bit It's a nice option to yeah, yeah, but but it's just I mean I think we just be very careful if if you're because the majority of giant beats you're gonna find in europe I'd be very careful and make sure you get really good pictures of the edge. Look at what kind of damage there is um Like mandatory you got to get him to send you a video, right of a of a recording So you can see what it sounds like at least so you get an idea Because the problem is you're gonna pay five six seven eight hundred thousand dollars for these things Yeah And if you're paying 200 bucks for a symbol and it turned out to be kind of clunkers like well, okay That happened to me a lot where I was paying 150 dollars for these symbols And I would just turn around and sell them for 100 bucks or 80 dollars that I'd lose like 20 or 30 dollars But I'm like, you know what? You tried and you experienced it Yeah, it's an 80 dollar symbol. I mean I didn't try to rip somebody off. I sold them for what I thought it was worth You know, it's okay, but it's not great, you know Another thing about giant beats is they were never made the German plant. Um, they're only swiss made um They also never got the piste outline stamp on the bottom of the symbol the famous piste name I don't know why but they they they just They didn't put them on there. Um What's interesting is during this period of time You had a parallel up to 74. I remember asking freddy. I'm like, why do they keep making giant beats until 74 of 2002 came out in 71 because in 74 well From 67 to 74, but especially 71 to 74 you had 2002 you had the giant beat you had the stem bull 65, right?  Yeah, and that's another thing that I never mentioned was you know up until 1981 zilchin only made one line of symbols and again With the weak things are nowadays I mean, there's so many choices.  Yeah, you know, and then you've got the big four um I mean it's Drivers don't understand there's a period really from like the mid 60s To when sabian was allowed to sell in the us in 82 81 82 or 83 or something. Yeah, 81 82.  That's all there was. Yeah, but yeah Pisces would offer, you know, because that was one of the fortes was all These lower echelon lines that were cheaper and you're not to buy an entry level symbol You could buy an upper mid-level symbol. That was basically like 80 Of of of a 2002, you know, yeah, but substantially cheaper So you could get that really good sound, but you know something you could afford So the one thing I wanted to say about giant beats also that uh, I keep forgetting about and I need to put on my notes was story from mr. Fritz What what of his early stories he told me? How did giant beats get reissued? Why did pisces reissue it right? So the story goes there's a drummer in germany. I think it owns a drum shop and in northern germany and he's this fanatical bonham fan I forget his name, but he is the one that bugged eric over and over and over and said of emails and bugged him and bugged him about getting bonhams endorsement contract and That endorsement contract you see on pisces website of bonham Yeah, yeah, it was because this guy kept bugging eric and he wanted to see it So eric had to go and find it in some old file cabinet somewhere, you know in a storeroom and he had to dig it out history Yeah, and he dug it up and now it's all over the internet, you know Yeah, really the other thing this guy did was he also requested a custom order and he wanted a full set of giant beats And I think pisces recently put a pause on custom orders, but the rule of thumb is There's a very long delay because they have to stop production And what they do is I'm sure that they wait until they're they're ready for a switchover They'll wait till the dawn of the run of a whole line of symbols which could take months And when they're going to switch over All of their tooling for another series That's when they'll run down the line those symbols for the custom order And the rule of thumb is you got to buy two of everything So if you order a full set of giant beats, you got to you got to buy two full sets Wow, so this guy's expensive. This guy orders them. Yeah, Pisces makes them They're in the vault and Steve Jordan is visiting that well And he's going to the factory and I guess he's in the vault or whatever and he sees them He's like, hey, what are these? It's like, when did you guys start making these and They're like, well, we're not it's a custom order. He's like, hey, I want some So they made two sets for Steve Jordan. Steve Jordan brings it back to LA And all his buddies are like, dude, put you kick those dude. I want some So they started bugging Pisces and I guess there was enough of demand. It was really This German guy, but also Steve Jordan that Kicked off this demand for giant beats. So I said, okay, I guess there's enough of demand. We'll start making them again So yeah, geez, that's awesome. You wonder sometimes when things are discontinued like You know, there's a reason to discontinue them 2002s came out. It was kind of redundant to a degree But like things get new life now. It would be a totally different. Yeah, people would love it. It's awesome Now what Pisces does and this isn't my on the wiki page about the civil production process and in Jill didn't see me and do the same thing. They have what's called.  I guess clang symbol Yeah, so they have the master symbol And that's what they test all other symbols against. So what they would have done is they would have put that master away The giant beat masters From 1974 they just want to put him in the vault and they've been sitting there since so when Pisces Will reissue and they said they were the 602s You know, they had all the old master symbols all the all the old clang musters from 94 because that's when they stopped producing 602 so They brought him out and they started going to to producing these symbols and it probably took a little while To get the hammering and leaving correct To get the sound but all they had to do was compare it against the master and and it was hit or miss How close they weren't if it wasn't close enough then, you know, then do it again. Yeah So that's how they're able to to to reissue these symbols. That's awesome. Very good to know. Yeah, okay big one What can I say about 2002 is that hasn't already been said, you know um, the one thing, you know You know, basically being old now Is I grew up with the sound and What I I tell people a lot is Turn on doesn't matter where you live in the u.s. Every city's got a classic rock station, right? Turn a classic rock station And I guarantee you if if it's not the song that's playing the next song the drummer will be playing 2002s 2002s You know, I'm not exaggerating they changed the sound of music You know the way I I like to I like to say The the way that avid is zilch and changed jazz music With their symbols with the design, right with hi hats and the actual names Crash ride and hi hat Right. I mean they they changed The sound of modern music, which was big band jazz and 30s and 40s and 50s, right? I personally feel picy did the same thing with rock music in the 70s and it's You know, I was what do we say? Oh, it's go english rock drummers But the more I looked I realized there was a lot of america drummers in the 70s that are playing pices So real quick. I'm gonna go down just just a little list I put together. This is only 70s not 80s Not 90s, of course, buhannam Alex van halen from the very first album Cozy Powell who played with jeff back and richie blackberries rainbow Carl palmer, of course. He actually played 602s early on Ian pace, of course car on apasy karma Not only did he play giant beats, but he also played 2002s and what would he just run steward? And also with bec bogan apasy mooney Who by numbers is 2002s and that tour? The last time we did uh, who are you? He went to a zilchins and you could hear it. You could see it in the videos, but that mid period He's playing 2002s Ainsley dunbar with journey and and uh, jefferson jefferson starship was playing 2002 The big one which freaks everybody out is steve smith played 2002s when he was in journey And that was journey evolution the first album we did with journey in 79 Those are all 2002s with sound creation dark sound and high hats and a 24 inch a zilchin ping ride And mix and match he I I bought his Kindle and he went through all this gear and explained what happened and He played 2002s for about three years Uh, 76 77 79 when he was with Jean-Luc Pony Then with Ronnie Montrose and then recorded the first Journey album evolution the first time he Played on and toured with by the time you get to Departure in 80 he's back to he got he got his a zilchin endorsement, but he said That feisty was the first company to offer him an endorsement. He was in europe with Jean-Luc Pony And they were in switzerland. I think they're in montreux and he went to the factory and they're like here you go And they gave him just a huge boatload of symbols You know and he was you know a young aspiring drummer. He wasn't a big name. So You know, this is a time when when zilchin wouldn't give an endorsement and feisty would and he explains that in this book You know, wow Yeah, I mean that's but all of these are like the sound of the radio. Yeah, I mean that is Incredible, I'd say they don't get enough credit for that. I mean, I think you've talked about it in your the first episodes You did yeah, I think that was the we talked about this in part two, but like Uh, it's incredible. It really is two thousand twos are everywhere. Yeah Um, but a very little known drummer. There's a bank english bank called ufo A real famous guitarist michael schenker their drummer andy parker played two thousand twos one of the best live albums ever If you like 70s rock, it's called strangers of the night by ufo It's an amazing live album amazing sound and drums and he's playing white vista light Bloodwood drum set in two thousand twos Nice graham lear from santana So graham lear is a drummer that replaced michael schriever in the mid 70s and he played two thousand twos So the sound of santana from 1970 to like 1980 with 602s and two thousand twos That's as the two drummers were playing believe it or not Um, and then you've got just for tall and all of tolls drummers have played piste for forever On barry more barlow was playing two thousand twos are all the classic mid the late 70s Uh, just their tall albums and then mark cranny and the in the early 80s and then don't parry by then I think It was he was getting in like three thousands charlie watz now But charlie it was Only here and there he used a 20 inch medium as a ride all through the 70s in the early 80s So but I consider okay. He played two thousand twos. Yeah, yeah, of course Dennis elliot and foreigner So all those big hits from foreigners in the late 70s. Those were all two thousand twos Kenny jones when he was in the faces In the small faces played two thousand twos now when he joined the who in 79 He started he switched the zilgins just just to be fair Michael de roger from heart All of those heart albums all through the 70s and early 80s were two thousand twos and he was replaced by denny carmasi That was he playing rudes in two thousand twos phil rudd with ac dc two thousand twos roger taylor now to be fair roger was 50 50 the left side was two thousand twos The right side of the set were a zilgins just just just to be completely fair. Yeah. Yeah, yeah Sandwich with tom petty all of those late 70s hits. Those were all two thousand twos Chester thompson with original with frank zappa. He was playing two thousand twos And then with jenesis two thousand twos and sound creations simon turk with bad company two thousand twos nick mason, of course Two thousand twos, right? Yeah don henley with the eagles two thousand twos hotel california those giant hits by the eagles. Those are all two thousand twos Uh, jerry surly with humble pie. You said well, who's humble pie? Humble pie was the band that peter frampton was in before he went solo early 70s hard rock english band really good band mc fleetwood Once two thousand twos came out. He he dropped the 602s and played two thousand twos all to the 70s all through the 80s into the 90s Uh, paul thompson with roxy music two thousand twos bobby elliott with the holly two thousand twos and last but not least phil eheart with kansas carrying on my wayward son two thousand twos all the big kansas hits two thousand twos That's quite the list and these are all being distributed by rogers cbs era rogers That is truly the the sound of the 70s And those are only the drummers that I can actually find pictures of them actually playing two thousand twos There's a lot more those are just the ones where because I put this on the wiki So I wanted to have pictures be included. You see the symbols is like Yes, and of course my my favorite picture of all time is steve smith because steve smith Is basically it's c smith and bonham and then ginger baker and steward copeland for me It's like tight for first tight for second you know Interesting and and I'm I'm looking at your outline here and I just I've always wondered about god What is 2002 come from it? It says right here named after roberts bmw 2002 which is fascinating which is an iconic Awesome little car. I mean that's a really cool. Yeah, I see what it claims that it was like a futuristic name It wasn't robert and robert named it after his car Yeah, so to wrap it up uh german 2002s My understanding is they produce them all the way through 86 And with the red labels is very easy to tell and I've got a picture where you see this big old maiden germany On the on the red label. It's harder to tell but on the embossed metal stamp On the 70s 2002 is it'll say maiden germany Instead of where it would normally say made in switzerland sometimes it's hard to read Is that more collectible or less collectible because it would be german? I mean You know It's It's an oddity I have one. I I would like to buy more actually rafael is selling a german An 18 it's german 2002 china type on facebook right now Rafael rafael zimmer man. He's a great awesome guy very knowledgeable He's actually like I was saying earlier if you get on facebook He actually does a lot of sales he him and I talk a lot He lives in switzerland and he actually buys a lot of stuff and he sells directly to drummers on facebook in the us So and he try he sells a lot of 2002s and a lot of son creations and they're all from europe so he's a really good source of if If you get on one of those forums, you know, like the the the piste new and vintage form find rafael and contact him If if you're looking for a particular symbol ask him, he could probably find it for you You know, he also sells signatures And now I think a lot of it is you know, you know, whether you can find it and what's what's in good shape You know, but it makes it much easier trying to get stuff in europe if you're if you're going through intermediary like he like him Sure, um So to wrap up 2002s um We could talk about 1986 kind of like george orwell's 1984 but for piste was 1986 so What happened in 1986 was um, there was a big paradigm shift with piste And they changed all the lower lines and i'll get into Kind of the collectible lower lines in in a minute, but What piste did is is and this is an interview i read with the tomas piste in modern drummer and He stated that one of the reasons They phased out the 404 and the 505, especially the 505 was it was they were i don't know if they were losing money He doesn't say that but i have a feeling that they weren't making any money off of it It was too expensive to produce for what they were charging And i'll give them the 505s in a little bit but in 86 is when they Wiped out all those lower lines and they brought in The 3000 series the 2000 the 1000 the 400 and the 200 So what you get with the 1000 which is basically the 404 replacement is you get a symbol that's now pressed or stamped into shape With hammering, but they made a rude version. You could tell it's Not nearly enough hammering to shape the symbol, you know, it's the hammer is much too sparse. So i'm i'm Educated guests that those were stamped into shape and then the 400 and 200 were definitely stamped into shape And i think even the hammer marks may have been pressed in It was much much more. Yeah, I mean this is and this is going with You know because they were You know Pisces ability to make a decent sounding symbol even if it's basically completely the manufacturer's automated And that was that was the big shift was they had they basically had to You know because by the time you get in 86 they had massive competition of sabian And i have to say So many of these 70s drummers They all got poached by seven by sabian by the mid 80s You know phil Collins chester thompson. Those guys jack dachanett. Yeah, those guys got poached You know ainsley went with the zilgen Uh, I mean I could go on and on and on feel e heart was playing zilgen, you know at any rate You know they they had some there's a third player and you know sabian I for what I could tell really blew up. I don't remember their ads and it's like Who are these guys? It's like, oh, they're like zilgen mark two. It's like, oh, this is weird, you know Yeah, you know, yeah that it was a weird, uh but You don't see many people It's like car companies where one doesn't really come out of the the woodwork very often But then you find out. Oh, they're owned by this massive company or yeah in that case.  So it's yeah, they they knew what they were doing already So to transition into the three thousands what happened with the 2002s as they weren't officially A discontinued in 86, but picey I I found the ad where I remember sitting in modern drama where they 2002s in the drink. It's literally like beats dropped in the water And then the three thousands like sailing above like this ocean all shiny and the 2002s like dumped in the ocean like sinking It's like you gotta be kidding me, man. It's your own symbol like throw the baby out with the bath water So literally yeah, so, you know Uh, but what I found out talking to mr. Fritz was that the And I remember this period because I had loaned my symbols to my buddy who was like a timey league You know want to be And he cracked my attendance medium 2002 yeah So and he couldn't he couldn't replace it. So he replaced it with the 3000 one in 18 of 3000 To be clear what happened was was that picey actually never stopped producing 2002s They scaled went that way back. They stopped advertising 2002s But they still listed them in dealer catalogs. So in their their catalog The catalog that that the public would see would not list them Right, they're marketing and all that kind of stuff But the dealer the drum shop when they got the next year, right with the new the new retail list prices and all that kind of stuff They was still list them in the back or whatever. So they could still order them But it was kind of you know And my understanding was that there was this huge knee jerk reaction with drummers in general where it's like wait a second There's all this huge upsurge of demand because all of a sudden 2002s were being discontinued So there's this huge demand So picey's basically kind of forced to go back and start to produce more again When they're trying to focus on the 3000 Now the 3000 Robert has always believed from but this is this is talking to mr. Fritz And and I think also freddy that robert is always trying to strive forward and and I understand his ideology and now what he's trying to do Is he's trying to create? A symbols to match to keep pace with the pace of music evolution and as music changes He's trying to change the symbols to keep up or Maybe even stay ahead, you know, and he did that with the giant beat. He did that with the 2002, right? Well, successfully which worked right and yeah, that was his idea with the 3000 was now you're into the second half of the 80s You got hair metal, you know, it's music is even more amplified even louder even more just When you listen to music from the era, it's like super bright the drums sound like cannons, you know, like like shotguns You know all this tones are reverb So he basically the 3000 was a 2002 on steroids that had this kind of odd flatlating Which carried over to the signature series The bells were larger And they sounded different. They were they were more aggressive. They had a stronger mid-range Just more of everything all the drummers used them all the endorsers I remember all the advertisement, you know, alexa hanlon was using them for all the van haecker albums, you know But they just they didn't sell the way 2000s and it did and the two you just there was this, you know, kind of Resistance of people still wanted 2002s So Pisces, you know, reluctantly, you know, brought back 2002s Um, I I'd have to look up in the wiki made was 89 when they had to start advertising again And then they were called to 2002 classic or classic 2002 I get the need to like come out with new things, but you you always Look back and go. Oh, we shouldn't have done that but you had to try whatever Well, it was, you know, it was, you know, he always tried to move forward to stay, you know You have to keep advancing to basically keep up, you know Yeah, well exactly what you said before about yeah, you know, if it worked, we'd be going man, what a great idea but And what happened was was three years later robber came out with the signature series What with with the whole new ally that he he that he developed Basically himself, you know with with the help of a of a metal artist And that was really the death knell for the 3000 because now that you had the signatures It was like signatures of 2002s, you know, nobody wants a 3000. So It's I don't know the exact date. They're discontinued. It's on the wiki But I don't think they lasted much past the early 90s So they only really had maybe a six year run And then that's it and collectability wise, you know, there's a few people that really like them And are like desperately trying to basically collect the whole catalog They're hard to find and when you do find them a lot of times They're really beat up because there were rock symbols, you know, just like giant beats, you know But 2002s, they made so many that there was a good chance you're gonna find some The other thing that I kind of forgot to mention about 2002 is that freddy was the was involved in The second half of the development because he was there in 70 and he worked with robert You know, it started with pier in 70 and pier left halfway through and it brought and freddy came in So freddy was involved with the development 2002 and he told me that That it wasn't necessarily a rock symbol because freddy Was a jazz fusion guy and he said that 2002s were not just rock but also jazz fusion symbols So it was it wasn't just this one niche that they were looking at which I never knew So and if you look at these old videos from 72 73 74 you see bands like soft machine, which are like hardcore like jazz fusion The guys played 2002s, you know, he's not playing 602s Yeah, whereas 3000s or something heavier More in the 80s, you're not seeing that. You're not seeing the crossover. No, and yeah And by then it's like you've got the whole whole, you know, eak, right early american k revolution You know that came back with with with, you know, as a force and like 82 83 You know, so okay so The last real big one and there's a super hardcore following for sound creations I owed a few I have to say that sound creation.  Not very small bill and yeah When, you know, pikes, they came out with that with the uh with the modern essentials Right 602s, you know the viny caliuta symbols Which again that was freddy freddy actually freddy introduced vinny to those they were developing them There's a there's a I didn't conduct the interview, but I edited I have a little snapshot of an a part of an interview where he talks about that where He had um shown the modern essentials to vinny and that was part of the enticement to get vinny to endorse pice The I mean that was huge Because vinny played zildjian and what was ironic in an interview was freddy said that Vinny had originally applied for an endorsement and vinny and southern phillips had applied for endorsement in 78 or basically Accepted and they were going to be in door sees in 1978 When when vinny was with frank zappa, and I don't know who Simon was with in 78 And at the last minute they got shut down because I guess pice tea was they they had over uh extended themselves and They I mean from what I remember they had too many endorseees So there's basically they had to cut off any new endorseees that they'd already engaged or whatever So freddy had to write both those guys letters and I'm sorry, but we can't we can't you can't be an endorseee You know and they basically turned them down after they'd already gone through the whole process What the one getting where the modern sashles before I get too far off is When I looked at their china's I'm like oh my god those are starting creations The the 602 modern essential china's are sound creation dark china's The harem is a little different exact same bells exact same taper the curve You know I'm like they took they took the old sound creation china And they probably took the client muster And they tweaked it a little bit and it created a slightly different version And that's what they presented to vinny because I remember watch the vinny episode Our video like 50 times when he talks about when he first auditioned the modern essentials And he gave them all the suggestions for the symbols, but where the chinese symbols is just do your thing I know you're gonna produce something great. So yeah, that's something To consider when you're looking at sound creations is possibly a modern essential instead um The thing about sound creations from that era all right really any era from 78 to 94 is They are insanely expensive And I looked us up last night I have a I have a rogers price sheet from 1980 So sound creation 20 years bell ride list is four hundred and seventy five dollars in 1980 All right, and I did a conversion. I went to the to the dollar You know your calculator. Yeah. Yeah, and I put how much is four hundred seventy five dollars and twenty twenty three dollars 1,749 Jesus So that symbol In the conversion would have equal that would be today buying a symbol 1717 Oh my god that list price for a 22 inch bell ride would be 1750 or a 22 inch darker A new symbol being a used symbol may be rare, but I've never heard of a new symbol even like Like a boutique brand being that much money. Oh, yeah, people think prices are expensive now I imagine how much in the you're also because you're also dealing with with the swiss franc So the exchange rate varies quite a bit And depending on the u.s economy, you know 80 was not a good year We had a really bad recession and we had really high inflation And 79 and 80 so what happened is if I was a dollar dropped a lot which meant that Prices went through the roof You know because it's the exchange rate a lot of it some of it some is exchange rate So are these are there less of these in the market because people couldn't afford them back then? Yeah, that's probably the kicker. Yeah, I mean they were super expensive um They you know originally they only made 1820 22 they made 14 inch hot hats They made 18 18 and 20 star crashes and they made a couple iris like a like a mellow ride Like a bright ride and then you had the 20 and 20 to its dark rides and 20 and 22 inch bell rides um I think you're 1820 22 china's But yeah, I mean the the line was always very limited A large portion of the symbols where I take off on They're based around freddy's dark ride and freddy Obviously was very heavily involved in the development of the whole sole line Now there are other models like the short crash, which is really really strange and I had when I had an 18 It has a flat bell So it has a normal bell, but it looks like it's been cut off on the top It's very very strange and years later With um sound formula. They made what was called the crystal crashes and they used the same bell so Very very interesting symbols. Um, yeah, if you want to if you want your sound creations Go to daniel plasco's a youtube page and he's got Every sound creation you can imagine. He's got a video of it and a lot of times I'll do comparisons Like you'll do dark china's like 1820 22 and I'll just go back and forth, you know, three of them It's really good for yeah get an idea of what they sounded like Um, that's a good it's good to know a trusted source of yeah of where to hear these kind of sales Because even if you're not going to go out and buy one it's fun to listen to and hear what they sound like Just to know the history of Our instrument, you know and all the different brands on the whole they're expensive They're they're some of them are a giant beat territory silver mart, you know, it depends on the seller Um, there are some here in the u.s. Um, they tend to be usually more expensive here in the u.s. Um Probably the best best bet is to go is to hit up rafael and say hey man find me some sound creations I actually just I actually just bought one. I just bought a 20 start china from them like literally I paid him yesterday for it So and it's a it's a 78 It's an 80 so it still has the old black label Ink in it a same thing cool with with the up to 81 They had the metal stamper embossed and then in 81 they went to it was a color was black But they had that the sound the sound creation logo is very cool A kind of almost like a bursting star They always have cool. I like all the star and the the rays and the things like that Which is important. It does matter. It doesn't affect the sound really, but that's that's just a cool it's cool imagery the The the progeny of the sound creation series and this is I remember this is not not my interview But again another interview with freddy is the master series That that is the modern That the ultimate version of what pisces trying to achieve 45 years ago With that dark complex, you know a sound They've achieved it with the master series really. Yeah, okay So I I thought the modern modern essentials were more sound creationists, but but according to the freddy interview It's the masters was their ultimate. That's That's what freddy was always looking for You know, it's strived to achieve all these decades. You know, that's and with modern technology I guess and and things like that they can well it's Or experience it's it's the alloy, you know and going back to the end of the other first of the last episode It's because those symbols the alloy is rolled in turkey And that's how they're able to get that sound I see you can't you can't get that really dissonant dark trashy sound With wyland works b20. It's too clean And it's it's too It's too pristine and accurate the way that the alloy is produced It's very very consistent and you need those irregularities You literally it's the crudeness of production of of yeah of mixing pouring casting and then rolling that causes that complex sound That you get I mean Yeah, and the other sound is like I was gonna say like it's too Pistey where they're like perfect and clean and sharp in a good way But but if you want a little bit of that flavor You gotta go you gotta get dirty and you can hear the sound creation series You can hear with the heavy hammer and it's a darker symbol But yeah, it's they're not case elders. It's not not by a long shot. They're still really cool sounding symbols, but They it's the alloy and same thing with the modern essentials. I really like the modern essentials I think they're really cool. You know if if I could afford I would buy like every model But again, it's you know, you compare the modern essentials to the masters They're a model apart. They're both complex and darker sounding symbols but The the modern essentials is still got that sweet Almost it's it's it still has that sweet fruity Tins that 602s have that the masters don't You know, so the rap of the sound creations 84 is when they added the new dimensions and they took they took some of The symbols the the dark crashes the dark ride the bell ride the the china's And they created a new dimension version short crashes too because my short crashes they didn't mention I had a bell ride and that was a new dimension the hammering changed and the hammering was was heavier on the mark one series and the new dimensions they Daniel Plasco called it the golf ball hammer marks because the hammer marks are really big They're like almost an inch of diameter. It looks to me I don't I'd have to Have a separation with me so I can't look at it. Unfortunately But I think they use two different sized hammer heads because I think there's two different size hammer marks on them They do sound quite different. I actually like the new dimensions. It picey And their literature says that they're more refined Um, and they do sound different the china sound different the the bell rides in the dark rides definitely sound different and Daniel Plasco has Both and he has videos we just side by side mark one. So it gets new dimensions So you could literally he'll just go back and forth between two symbols You see exactly the difference in how they sound So That's interesting. Yeah, if you're if you're interested in something unique That is darker sounding and less picey like then the sound creations are definitely worth checking out the dark crashes Are pretty cool. They're hard to find The rides are easier to hard to reason to find the hi-hats Is it a find if you want to if you want to hear what dark what sound creation hi-hat sound like listen to journey evolution Because steve smith is playing sound creation dark sound edges on that album And you can hear i'm the last the last track in the album called lady lock Which is like the super hard rockin song the intro is where he's playing just as hi-hat open it up and close it It goes That's like yeah, yeah, those are dark sound edges at that point it It would have been brand new too. So you got to think that then there's also the aging of a symbol Which would affect how it is now, but that's a different That's just go hear it for yourself if you can I guess Yeah, and I think I mentioned in the first episode that I think that that b20 Age is better. It's more durable than b8 is Yeah, that's cool. That makes sense. Yeah Okay, so I think we're basically we're getting towards the end here of the lines And I go through the what I think are collectible lower lines So these might be considered more like you know someone who's not like Have having someone's source symbols in europe that are so rare that like getting them sent to your house These would almost be more attainable for someone who's got a little extra dough to spend I want to get a cool vintage. Yeah, piste symbol. These could be attainable, right? Yeah So, um, again with the facebook page is like the piste new advantage Um, there's a guy a week ago From england. He's selling Um, I think it's a pair of hi hats. I can't remember but I commented on it He said some of the pair of black label 505s and I remember the prices was very reasonable. I can't remember exactly what it was But we're talking like 150 200 bucks, maybe maybe less. Wow, that's good Maybe closer to like the 150 range But with 505s, you're only going to see the green labels. It started like mid 81 404 505s are very hit and miss because they were kind of 404s are really beginner symbols They get pretty beat up and they're thin. Yeah, you know But you'll find some where it's just they haven't really been played much and you could tell You could tell by they sell the labels. They're not super dirty They're not all banged up the edges are straight Well, that's the other side of beginner symbols is yeah, they were either beaten to death Or they were not used at all because little jimmy didn't actually play as drum set at all and then it went into a Attic or something. Yeah 505s I've seen something really good condition and I would say that They are 505s were like 85 of a 2002 as far as like sound quality and like construction You know, I I owned You know back in 82 Cousins Sunset Strip during a guitar center, you know, I bought a pair of 505 hi-hats and an 18 is china to go with my 16 and 18 is 2002 mediums and my 22 inch ride And it was a perfect mix the 505s are a little cheaper So I was able to afford the hi-hats and the china within like a month or two of each other You know, so I had a cool set You know and then I could play rush signals and I could you know, I could totally Perfectly emulate neils wuhan with my 18 inch 505 china Yeah, that's some realistic We've all been there though where you're like, all right a china if I can't afford it I'm gonna buy the cheaper like zilgen zbt or like the wuhan because they're dirt cheap and it's not your ride It's not your crash. You can get away with a little more. Yeah Yeah, so those are those are the other big thing too with both of them even the 404 and Uh big jd jonda christopher's got a couple 404s.  You know, they're they're pretty rare He had two 20 inch rides, which are really more like crashes because they're they're they're relatively thin Um, they still had the full ink, you know, I said you these things are really good shape I said, listen both of those lines those are the last Lower level lines or mid-level lines that were fully hammered in the shape 404s were fully hammered in the shape, which means that like I would say 75 of the labor one of those that produced a 2002 You know the the big difference that I see with them is the lathe The lathe is very very simple on 404s. Yeah Where with 2002s you have two layers you have a fine layer and you have a coarse layer that's asymmetrical That almost looks like record grooves that kind of gets tighter and spreads out then it gets tighter and spreads out And with the 505 you have the fine lathe and then have the coarse lathe Layer over it, but it's consistent and it's just like a big, you know, it's a big gap between Yeah, the grooves But that's where they save money to make it right because it's affordable Yeah, it's one pass and it's a one quick pass instead of the guy having to sit there, you know So, yeah, yeah makes sense. Yeah with 404. It's just one pass. It's one leading pass all the way down You know, so, you know, I mean and it's like two that's really good about the series is it's cheap enough that If you buy one don't like it.  It's like, okay. That was a twenty five dollar lesson You know, exactly. That's how I look at it where I remember buying a 20 or 30 or $30 ride at a pawn shop that was like Dead and I believe in the zilcham one Vincent mentioned that it it sounded to me like it He said symbols that have gone through fires or something have a certain sound of just being Like this symbol had nothing to it. There was just it was gone. Whatever happened to it Yeah, it was a lesson. It was a lesson learned for $30. It's been it's been annealed Because it got hot enough that it reaches what's called this recrystallization point Where it's not molten, but the crystalline structure changes and it basically symbol loses its hardness and then it so that means it loses all its sustain and tone Yeah, dead. Yeah, the only the only other note that I would add is is and I've never owned them, but Korya, Missouri, because I mentioned in the first episode he As a big time collector of dimensions dimensions was the second time That robert tried to replace the 2002 and about make in about 2000 the year 2000 and according to mr fritz it was called project fusion and this is this is my interpretation of what i've read about this is the dimensions the name is not only Really kind of roberts last for all I mean reintroducing it reintroducing the six or two so that was the last thing he did but this is his last big one and This to me is the pinnacle of b8 development Where he really just went out in outer space with these and there's actually two lines the the dimensions and the innovations and They're basically tied together The innovations and I think some of the dimensions use what's called the sound texture formula and What it is is instead of leaving the symbol There's cnc machine and they use this bit That basically ground Away the symbol from what I get from my machine is training You look at the surface of the symbol and it says has this weird It's kind of rough, but it looks like something basically was grinding away at the symbol And this is interesting This is the treatment they use instead of cutting Laving grooves with with a knife on the lathe They use this treatment instead and it definitely creates a different sound of the symbols They also do odd stuff where they actually hammer over the latheing on a lot of the symbols and I think At some point, uh, I've got a picture or we showed a picture already of some of kori's collection But what was sad was that this is this is very expensive produced They had problems with production with that cnc machine and the bit wearing how they're breaking And what happened is when two was passed away in the summer of o2 Um, this this series quickly faded away. It was discontinued that this is kind of that that what would be called the eric era and my understanding was That again, like With the 404 and 505 they were they were too expensive to produce for what You know Pisces was charging and You can only charge what what the market will bear, you know And you can't charge, you know, the 1980s can't lose money Well, and you and you can't charge sound creation prices for symbols like this if people Drummers they can't afford it. You know, they can't afford it. So it's you know, you know, it's it's what what the market demands All right, Dan So tell us about the european distributors, uh, which I'm looking at and these are familiar brand names That we most most most of these names have come up on the podcast before in some capacity Yeah, um, so tell us about it well I guess I would say the the biggest one which some people have heard of is is arbiter um Iver arbiter and um his drum shop. It was drum with a drum city drum drum city Yep, and in london was the place That's I'm my understanding that that's where wringo bought his Ludwig drum set and that's also where he they stenciled The Beatles logo on his drum head, right? That's what I understand and then also wrote in I think they made they they they hand drew a larger Ludwig, right? Yes, yes, because It wasn't as big or it wasn't on there before so all of that is There there is a arbiter iver arbiter episode in the works with bob, uh, henrit from uh, right England who knows all about it. So yeah, that's that's what I understand So he was the pisces distributor in england And I think it's probably due to him that so many anglis drummers played pisces symbols in the 60s and the 70s Keeping with with pisces tradition of that era arbiter I believe started to distribute pisces in 62 from the information we have um, and uh, they They I believe from the beginning pisces made them a custom stamp They made two of them one of them was for the 602 and it says and I've got a picture arbiter custom foreign made From the 602 and then they also had the stem bull, which was just called the arbiter custom Didn't say stem bull just said arbiter custom um, I actually bought one recently a 602 arbiter And it is really cool. It is a really good shape. It still has the clear coat on the bottom of the symbol It's an amazing shape. So the arbiter thing in general with the history of what you just said about Iver arbiter and the beetles and the importance of him that adds some special Uh, genus se qua to that symbol, you know, yeah, they're they're hard to find them And obviously you're probably only going to find them in england. So I was very fortunate to find this one Um, um, it was actually suggested by this drum dealer who was I was actually looking at a stick he had a stem bull 65 And he mentioned in correspondence. Oh, by the way, I've got this arbiter 602. I'm like, what? Yeah So take my money Yeah, so so they so that stamp they ran from 62 I think to about 68 that after 68 they reverted back To the standard uh 602 emboss and arbiter carried all The whole piste line. I have a 71 catalog where they carry everything belongs Orchestra symbols, you know concert marching you name it What if I was very interested in that catalog going through it because it's all musical instruments They didn't carry a zilchins. They carried k zilchins in 1971 It was like wait a second arbiter. Yeah It's like that's interesting. That's like if a guitar center didn't carry a's and they only carried k zilchins You know, yeah, yeah, and that's getting towards the end of the k Exit k's existence as a factory, right? Yeah Yeah, so I so I you know because I'm thinking maybe that's another well I know that zilchins were a lot harder to to Obtain in england. I mean the whole reason why we didn't go ahead a full set of zilchins is because My understanding is in 64, you know For for uh Ed Sullivan. He went to man. He's in new york. He'd be bought a whole set of zilchins I don't know an arbiter stop Distributing piste's in england. Um I know that heyman was involved at one point And I think heyman was doing a distribution in england and what's interesting is that And the first two piste profiles books People don't want to talk it about at least the endorses one was done in about 71 72 and the second was done in 75 You notice that all these drummers are listed playing heyman. It's like Why are so many drummers playing heyman drums? It's like hey must be big in europe Well, it wasn't what it was was that A tumis would send away a request to either the management or the drummer themselves of the endorser Say hey, please send us a bio and then the list of your symbols of what you're using And a lot of times the drummers that only send like their list of symbols or their management company with them Okay, this is what he's using Yeah, so when when tumis didn't have any information for the drums They defaulted to heyman So that's funny drummer drummer did play heyman, but because he didn't tell piste what they were playing they played heyman That's awesome. That's kind of a default like a good ad for heyman Yeah, and heyman is also part of that kind of the dallas arbiter whole empire um, yeah And that actually falls in Really quick. There's this oddity called a heyman standard symbol and a heyman phase one and these were either I think they're either dixies or even supers, which is an entry level line um That had the heyman stamp on it and they were only produced for a few years from like 73 to 75. They're all b8 um The ones that i've seen there's actually a couple of them seem to sell with sound files They don't sell very good. They're pretty dead. You know, it was the best way to describe them Very beginner and people can know heyman is very famous because later. It's the turret. It's the round lug So if you see that they're famous in their own right, but for americans, you can go. Hey, that looks like a camco or a d w or a d w and then it's it's heyman. Yeah, yeah There's actually I think there's a pair of heyman standard hi hats on reverb I don't know if they're still there, but i remember sitting in a few weeks ago and i'm like wow Because I don't think those are ever sold here in the us anyways One of the big ones early on for piscy was sonar and Sonar was selling stamp bulls in their catalog from about 52 up to 58 And I actually have one that was the first symbol that mr fritz gave me as kind of what started my whole You know collection obsession, you know learning about piscy history um And they had originally the the delta logo, which is a triangle That's the old sonar stamp and then I think around 53 Sonar changed their logo to a cursive script. That's just a sonar and Those stem bulls will will have the standard stem bull stamp, but then it'll say sonar at I think At nine o'clock Uh in the cursive script and the older ones with a delta logo will just have that triangle logo below the stem bull Um, that's cool interesting symbols, but by 58 I sonar. I'm actually looking at a picture. I've got a picture of their 57 catalog They sold I don't know if they're other brands or there were brands made from like turco There's a couple other ones. Um There was another company also tricks and Also sold stamp bulls in that era the same same period of time Same thing there were stamp bulls, but it'll say tricks and above the stamp bull And I actually saw one on reaver about a year ago surprised that there was one here in the u.s But it seems rare. Yeah, but again, these are nickel silver stamp bull So it's it's really just an oddity You know, yeah, it's more for fun if you see a tricks and symbol. It's not like yours It's going to be the best sounding thing in the world. Yeah So, um, one of the big ones which you actually see a lot is What's called sys me? That's s i s m e in capital letters And that was the italian distributor for piste from the early 70s up to 1984 now When piste did this these I think were sys me would think was the last the last The last distributor for piste They stamped high performance above The embosser stamp. So it was 602 that says high performance And then the 602 stamp and then on the bottom the symbol in red ink. It says sys me distribution And that that's that sound creation dark china that I bought from rafael That's a sys me sound creation So it'll say high performance above the sound creation stamp now. I've seen 602 sys me's and a lot of sound creation sys me's I've never seen a 2002 sys me, but I'm it could be that piste didn't modify the stamp For sys me in italy for the 2002s Um, I don't know about stambles or 505s or 404s. I haven't seen those either. It is possible um 84 italian distribution was taken over by a palo Sperlani, which I think I talked about him in the first episode Um, and once we get into that the color label error, there was no special labeling or anything But they're pretty common when you get on especially like And I think I actually one of the links Uh that I gave you was for an italian Auction site, but even the swiss and the germans ones you'll see some sys me symbols um another one we don't really see here, but If you get on japanese ebay pearl was actually a the japanese distributor for piste from 69 to 79 And piste actually made them a custom stamp. I think for the Dixie Or it had the I it's I don't know if they used this logo in the 70s, but it was a real pretty cursive. Yeah pearl Yeah, I love that logo. Yeah, and it's big and that's that's and now the 602s I don't think I did with but I think with the 404s or the or the stambles and Dixie as they did that But they sold they even sold giant beats That's yeah, it's all far they go back and um, cool They could have been the ones that specified that you put a t and a b on the inside of the bell of the giant beat hi-hats So yeah Like I said, you'll you'll see them on on japanese ebay Which is which which is which is interesting. It'd be cool. It'd be cool to own one of those Yeah, that'd be awesome. That seems super Rare and just again anodity when people see a drum brand On a symbol today or whenever you kind of it denotes a little bit of like this is a beginner symbol You'll you'll get with your set, but it seems like back then there were a decent amount of Fairly good symbols that would still have that that drum logo. Yeah to some degree. Yeah Yeah, so I think that kind of wraps it up with with the distributors and all the symbol lines um I mean, I've only got really a couple a couple small things left Yeah, we'll tell us. I mean, I think that the last thing you have on here about symbol care and uh cleaning You know cleaning information does fit in with the collectible nature of things of You know, it's like the age old thing about this would have been worth This much if you didn't clean it. Yeah, but you did clean it. So now it's worth much less. So you mean like just run Like what's behind me Yeah, sure. Yeah, we'll run us through a little bit about what you have here And then we'll we'll call it and call it for me. It's 11 15 at night. So we'll call it a night at that point Okay, the first thing I always check is for edge damage And to me that's really critical because you're basically creating like a stress riser on the edge of the symbol and to me that's That's a crack waiting to happen so It's okay to buy symbol in that condition and I actually have a couple of pictures Where I either file down the flea bites or I actually will sand them down with a cylindrical sanding disc on on my my battery powered drill And then I send it by hand and I make sure that I don't create a flat spot on the symbol And I've had a couple symbols that have some pretty serious flea bites where I had to take A decent amount of material up, but we're talking like five thousands of an inch, you know There's a maybe 10,000 still sounds good though. Oh, well in your opinion Well, there's yeah, I mean you can't tell I mean it's a tiny amount. No, sure You know, but to me it's it's it's peace of mind Because I would be afraid of hitting the symbol in that spot, but you can't see while you're playing But my fear is hidden it directly right on That ding on the ends of the symbol and that's where it's going to crack You know the other thing that's interesting too, and I actually Duck up the pictures of both pisces zilgin Have in their catalogs in the past. I mean pisces catalog from 79 houses It shows how to hit a symbol And the thing that I always found very interesting is is zilgin and pisces show the exact same thing and Zilgin calls slicing it and they're in their catalog which I think is kind of cool You know and Pisces says glancing blow and what that means is that's glancing blow sounds more of like you're going jousting What they mean is is when you hit a symbol You don't hit Directly into the bell directly on like you tip your stick is not pointed at the bell, right when you hit the symbol You angle the stick At an oblique angle. So when you hit it your stick actually Bounces off at an angle. It doesn't have to be a super Radical angle like that, but you're not going directly in Now when I found playing my symbols for years once I saw that diagram I would go back and forth to hit hitting across symbol directly on and then hit it at a glancing blow and I'm like You know what the symbol sounds a little different when I do this Yeah, I could see that but my understanding is that alone and the other one They say the other technique you could do which is really hard to do is actually to pull back Is when you when you crash a symbol don't just leave let the stick keep traveling But actually once you make the initial impact was you actually start to pull the stick back or from the symbol Yeah, those two techniques Supposedly will help preserve the edge of the symbol and reduce The the chance of a cracking Obviously the force they had I mean the number one thing is obviously the thickness of the symbol You know, I mean when you're back to collecting classic symbols, how many paper things are out there? You know and and you know, 40 50 year old splashes, right?  They get they get cracked. They crack because they're so small. They're so delicate, you know I actually I actually have a fortune of paper thin That had a crack and I repaired it at a 602 And fortunately the crack was only the other thing too with cracks is Is I treat it like cancer the only way to fix it is cut it out Don't drill a stop hole The radius of the stop hole that you drill is not big enough and you're creating the stress point, you know You could think of it as like, you know It's a kind of a crotch and you've got the two sides of the alloy Is flexing and that's center point right there where you've got the flexing that's where all the stress is You know, I even have a picture of of some of you cut it. Yeah who tried to repair crack and they cut Angle too narrow and they just cracked right right at the get the crotch of where that crack or the cutout was Um, so yeah, it's you want to you want to as general radius as you could possibly Cut without cutting too much material Away and the only way to do that is you got to check your symbols and as soon as you see a crack Number one, stop playing and don't even touch it until you've cut out that crack um The other thing I noticed too is that it and this just recently dawned on me One of the big differences between pisces and zildjans or I should say Pisces and Turkish made symbols or zildjans and sabians Zildjans and sabians they crack along the leading grooves And you'll get symbols that are cracked up by the bell and you'll get like I've had that. Yeah Yeah, I had with a z a z custom. Yeah huge big crash. It happened. Yeah And and they rarely cracked from the edge inward, you know, they're not perpendicular We're with pisces like 99 percent of the time. I've only seen it on signatures where they've cracked Uh, uh with slaving grooves all the other pisces. I've seen that always cracked from the edge inward Uh, always and that it's a good thing because When it happens if you catch it, you know, when it's an eighth of an inch and you just grind that out It's not going to affect the symbol like at all you won't be able to tell the difference and you've basically You know, it's like cutting out cancer.  I haven't noticed getting a bit bigger It's like, yeah, it'll ruin your symbol. It is ruined. Yeah.  Yeah So there's this romantic notion and I I totally get it It really comes from old k's from jazz drummers playing old k's and the thing with old k's is Bank at darker and dirtier and darker and dirtier. I mean both physically and sound wise with age, right? Mm-hmm So I understand that the the the thinking of don't clean the symbol, you know, it's it's aging but You know Coming from a completely different era and in a different background of you know Part of it obviously is the visual aspect as you could see otherwise I would stick all those symbols back there and have light shining on you know Yeah, yeah, they're very clean your your background for people listening is just an awesome array of clean symbols That's about that's about a quarter of my collection, by the way Okay, so My my thinking is when Ava de Siltian or Robert Piste Developed a symbol developed sound he didn't go out in the backyard buried the dirt for six months and let it get all crusty and in oxidized Then yeah Dig it out of the ground and hit it go. That's what i'm looking for Yeah, I want that dirty sound. That's a good point.  I know there's a period You know, I know like like those will age their symbols and basically let them kind of relax For several months or a year or whatever and I get that I'm sure there's something to that with With kind of the tension you can call it in the alloy when you're first Make an alloy because you're basically forging it with the hammer and enrolling you're smashing the alloy You know in a more compressed state so And Over time there's metal fatigue and wear and tear and that goes back to like with 2000 tunes with oh black labels Are mellower sounding and then red labels are Well, no, they're just got more miles on them.  I didn't know keller made shells for rogers. I always assumed rogers made their own shells But yeah, it's the same thing. It's like I want to know like with the super four with 602s I want to know what what robert peiste was trying to make. I want to know the sound he was looking for So if I find a super four with 602, that's a pretty good shape I'm going to clean it because that's going to make a small difference and make it sound closer To how the cymbal sounded what is new I want the cymbal to be as new as possible when it was brand new and you bought it in the store That's what I'm looking for. So that's why I clean my cymbals and also Full disclosure because they look damn good And and yeah, they do look good. And that's a pipe. That's a price detail. Yes Yes And I don't I don't know why because you think 602s and and a zillions will look the same because they're both between 20 They don't And even back in the 70s, it's like looking at you know old videos of a film of keith moon playing I could nearly tell when he's playing 602s when he's playing a zillions, you know Not only because of the shape of the bell and the curve of the bow of the cymbal and also it sounds but The way it was a color well the way it reflects the light You know because the lathe and hammering is totally different, you know That john densmore picture that I showed earlier. You could clearly see those are 602s. Those aren't a zillions, you know anyways So The other thing with piscia I realized because I bought a lot of the stemball 65s. They're all b8 I cleaned them and I've got a picture of one where I cleaned it and like three hours later It started to turn orange and brown and oxidized like crazy And I realized, you know copper Really likes to combine with oxygen oxygen is super reactive and and everything oxidizes all metals rust, you know Rusting is just oxidizing means that that metal or alloy is combining with oxygen and creating a new new compound Right, so you get copper oxide or with aluminum you get aluminum oxide, you know even titanium rust Titanium oxide is what they use in paint pigment.  The whole thing with piste coating their cymbals because I'm 99% sure that they use some sort of either oil based or water based lacquer And and they always have and I think when when they started to produce b8 cymbals in 65 Robert realized we have to coat these because by the time they get to a music store They're just going to be like look like crap They've been touched and the distributor and put the bag and yeah And and with bare copper bare b8. It's just it oxidizes too easily b20, you know the 602 is behind me all clean them and They turn this they they get a light yellow tint after several days or a week I mean I would perform the experiments where I clean a 602 And then a b8 piste and I'd lay them on the table and I just let them sit there for like a week And I come in look at them in a week later come back And I see how the 602 barely changed color where the b8 was like all orange, you know, I have like streaks on it So yeah, yeah I actually developed a way to recode them using an oil based lacquer and cutting it with thinner thin enough That I could recut the cymbal. So these cymbals behind me are all recoded unless they start the coat coat Which a couple of them still did but getting back to cleaning With with cleaning not, you know, there's a whole chapter on the wiki. So so it's probably better to go through that but With pistes and also like modern zoos are the same as they're coated as well Which you have to be careful is not used to abrasive a clinic is you'll you'll cut through the clear coat And once you cut through the clear coat, that's when you have problems with the cymbal tarnishing much quicker So the problem is your cranium like this catch 22 where you're trying to clean the cymbal make it look better But you're actually cleaning is actually Making it tarnish quicker and look 30 years sooner So don't be abrasive is the is the key thing and look at the cymbal wiki and which all the links and then We'll be in the description for yeah Because you could there's there's that is a full episode on on tips and tricks of cleaning and what to do I'm not to do and there's a quick catch up on it And there's yeah, I tried like dozens of cleaners and coatings and all that kind of stuff So there's a whole list of like, you know, how I'd rate um You know and I I cleaned I would say over the last two years Probably about 80 symbols So I it was a process of of hit, you know of trial and error until I I developed a tech technique that I really liked But it's really convoluted Um, sure the one thing I wanted to mention is the first thing is is that the cymbal is not dirty the first The number one thing is is the sweat in your fingers is the worst thing because it's caustic and that's what will create a symbol And that the salt the sodium chloride will slowly eat through even a clear coat And that's the number one thing you see that makes symbols turn green and the oil and dirt in your fingers That keeps the salt suspended and it stays on the symbols.  I'm super tired. I gotta sleep in hotels. Like I'm gonna clean my symbols But it's it's some point even if it's just, you know, windex and a rag just wiped on the edge That'll make a big difference and then at some point soap and water, you know If you have time go through and just soap and water and as long as you can keep that salt off the symbols You'll keep them in that stage where you still got a full clear cut. They're still they're still protected And you could keep them pretty much brand new Um, wow, just with a little touch up the other thing I try to do with with symbol cares I I I Finally found a symbol bag a Pisces symbol bag that has dividers cloth dividers So the symbols are rubbing against each other all the time and getting scratched Yeah, and I have a lot of symbols that I bought from here Old ones like that where they're just the surface is just all scratched up where they just like laid them around and you know It's not an abuse. It's rubbing against other symbols. It's just a stack. Yeah The one thing I wanted to mention really quick about claiming kind of to wrap it up is I found out from and I won't name names with my pisci insider um Who several years ago? I think it was probably about 20 years ago was at at Notwell He witnessed some of the pisci workers Uh filling the pisci symbol cleaner bottles the infamous orange Unobtainium pisci symbol cleaner that paper is selling like 400 dollars a bottle on ebay, right? Yeah Well, Pisci doesn't make that cleaner. They never did All they did was re-bottling from another manufacturer and This was a common household cleaner used for cleaning stainless steel And it was called stall fix Which is german for steel fix And it's stainless steel cleaner and I actually have a couple pictures of the original bottle Then they were bought out by s.e. Johnson And the name changed to mr. Muscle And you could still buy it today in germany and I actually bought several bottles I could even post a link. You have to buy a 25 dollar minimum. It's this this company It's like a kind of a grocery store They specifically sell to the us for like, you know, german Expatriates when they want to buy like german german candy or cookies or crackers and they've got household cleaners. So I'm verified with a couple people That this is the the real thing and it's actually pisci use stall fix And that is their cleaner.  You know, that's it. That's a good tip Yeah, everyone has seen that bottle that orange bottle The one thing I did find out was that pipe Pisces into formula, but the formula of their cleaner changed I think about 20 years ago Because the smell changed slightly and I still have a tiny bit It's all dried up I have a tiny bit left a pisci cleaner in a bottle and there's a gentleman I know of in Italy and Him and I were going back and forth about it when I told when I I posted it on on the the pisci facebook forum Like hey, this is actually the cleaner and he's like i'm gonna buy some and he tested it He still had some of the of the more recent pisci cleaner And he's like it's the same thing. It smells the same. It's the same consistency.  It is, you know So good to know Yeah, so cool. Well, there's an affordable Tip that everyone can do to start All right, dam well, this is uh, this has been awesome to go through both parts Tons of information the amount of time and effort that you have put into this is I hope apparent to everyone because you have Beyond the time and energy that you've put into your outline You've also been helping me with like put this picture here put this picture here Which you've now seen the back end where like with the neal pierced series where it's like Just the photo dropping in portion alone is super time consuming So anyway, you've been a huge help to me and I appreciate you sharing All your knowledge all the links and things that we've talked about will be in the description for this Dan's other two episodes and uh, wherever you're listening Uh, or watching if you're listening find it on social media or send me a note And I'd love to hear what you guys think about it But also if you're on youtube write in the comments, you know, is there is there more info that you guys know? I think that everyone likes to hear, you know, if you're in europe and you have some You know unique interesting perspective on this or whatever just more information is always great And just let us know if you liked it. I think we would like to hear it So, um, I I want to just want to throw in there again not to sound like a like a broken record But check out those facebook uh forums. Yes. I mean it's it's You know the the the nice thing even though facebook is basically for old for old people now The nice thing about it is is it's an old-fashioned form in that all the posts are all archived and it's all chronological So you can go back five or six years and you could spend I mean when I Two years ago I started going through these forums and I would stay up like all night just going back farther and farther down Funding these posts like saving the pictures, you know, or I'd even copy and paste some of the the text The great resource right into a document where I could save it, you know, a lot of it was we're taught little posts You know, that's basically how I met him was Seeing all his posts on facebook and I'm like, hey, man, you know, you know all this stuff. So it's great Even if you don't even play pysy just To check in and say hey, what about this or what about that or whatever, you know, it's it's free, you know, it's Yeah, exactly. It's amazing resources. So Yeah, yeah, for sure Go to the description of this episode and part one and find those links and go join the group and join the conversation You don't have to have a single pysy symbol You can just get on there and start learning before you even have to buy Your first Dixie symbol to get you involved or whatever you want Or let me stand noble Yes, exactly.  All right, Dan. Well, thank you my friend. I appreciate it. Thank you And thank everybody for watching