Good afternoon. Welcome to Shrink Wrap with Steve Katz, except Steve's not here. Steve and his lovely wife Tamra are in Oregon. They're bicycling and swimming across rivers and having a great time. So I'm substituting today. My name is Ken Burtness. I'm adjunct faculty at a Chaminade. I'm with their Masters of Counseling Psychology program out there. And today we're lucky because I have a very special guest and a special friend visiting. Her name is Jamie McCuitt. And she's with Family Huey, Hawaii, and we're going to talk about parenting today and why parenting is the toughest job in the world. Welcome, Jamie. I can't thank you. Yeah, it's an amazing job that we're totally unprepared for. No one manual. Lots of manuals, but not one. Not one, yes. And they're all different and they change all the time. And our society is changing and the manual that we grew up with is no longer in print. Well, even the form that we grew up in, we were much more tribal before. So there was an inherent support group within your family to help you raise your children. And now, because of modern society, we don't have anything like that, so it's like... So what happened to that support group? Well, I mean, people are transient now. They're not living in the same place that maybe they originated. Even if they do have parents, they might be aging parents or they might not be available for support. And even if they have parents that are available to support them through their parenting issues, they might not agree with what the parents want to actually do. But it was good enough when I was raising you as a kid, so why not now? So one of the things that we find with Family Huey Hawaii is that we've recreated that it takes a village kind of approach. Yeah, that's terrific. So we form Hueys in areas where people ask for them. So you have to virtually go online and ask Family Huey Hawaii. I'm in Kaniohe. I have a two-year-old. I'd like to form a Huey. And it's the only free, peer-led parenting group in the state. We have groups on Maui, Lanai, Molokai, and Anahu. We service about 360 families. In the last year, we've had 360 families participate in these Hueys. And it can be anywhere from five parents to ten parents in a group. But you're placed together in your geographical area and based on the age of your child. So we want families who are raising children the same age to have that support system around the developmental levels that their children are going through. Oh, that's terrific. Parents, I specialize in marriage and family counseling as far as teaching future marriage and family counselors out of Chaminade. And the families that come in for therapy are just overwhelmed. They're just so stressed out. Both parents are working. There's no time. There's so much more required, it seems like, today. You've got to rush here and rush there. And you've got to prepare your child to get into preschool, the best preschool. Stuff that when I was growing up, we never even thought about. And all these added pressures, I just see families and parents that are so overwhelmed and kids that are so distant from their parents. Well, the other thing about modern society is this huge issue of technology. So, I mean, I think most people are aware that violence on TV does have an effect on children. But what people aren't really talking about is how children are learning to communicate now. Like, they're not learning to have one-on-one conversations or one-on-three or whatever because they're using iPhones or iPads. And that's why all of our huis usually meet outside. Like, you decide within the group where you're going to meet. It's usually a public park or a beach or something. And so, we plan activities for the children. And then there's a 12-week curriculum that we actually go through discussion points. Now, depending on what hui you're in, if you're an in-infant hui, it's ideal because they're breastfeeding, they're lying, they're sleeping, they're not moving around a lot. And it's a really good opportunity for parents to share what they're going through because it is a job that is 24-7. No breaks for brushing your teeth, going to the bathroom, having a shower, anything like that. And it is constant. I mean, I've been a talent agent to major movie stars. I've read international publishing houses and represented the whole world for global rights. And I've never experienced a job as hard as parenting because it's constant. It is on all the time. So, I knew we're on all the time. There's not that break of, oh, okay, I can take a minute after this meeting and have a little breather because they're absorbing all of your energy. And I just read a statistic recently. It was on the Family Hui website, actually, about a two-year-old.  Every second. I'm like, no wonder they're like that. Their heads are exploding with everything that's going on. So, Family Hui is trying to replicate having that support group inherent within a community. So while you're raising your children, everybody does become the auntie and uncle. So that's how you get your breaks then? Yes, yes. And the other thing is, we have all of our curriculum is based on the latest research. So that's the other thing. People are getting on the internet and, oh, this person's telling me to do this and this expert is telling me to do this. Well, we've got the latest scientific and medical and psychological research, but it's backed up by a human being sitting right there saying, you know what, that didn't work for me at all. But this really helped.  This incredible, okay, somebody else. I'm not alone. I'm not isolated. I'm not the only one going through this. And this worked for this person. So maybe I'll try this or, you know what, I'll take your kids for a couple of hours. You take mine for a couple of hours next week and, you know, go read, take a bath, whatever. Those kinds of things that just don't happen anymore. Okay. So you mentioned the infant who is, you know, it's a zero to one. What about the terrible two weeks? Tell us about that. I co-led two toddler whoies. So I am very well aware of the challenges. And one of them was we had three sets of twins in this whoie. So an ideal whoie is supposed to have, an ideal toddler whoie is supposed to have five. Five children only. So here we had, and the program manager for Family Who Hawaii came to my first session when we had these twins on a weekend. And you could see, you know, everybody's eyes is going, oh my God, they're going this way and that way. And there's only, you know, it's not even a one on one ratio here. You know, it's one on two. And we used the parachute as a centering device. So basically anything colorful is going to catch their eye so you can get them down. Well, tell me about the parachute.  It's just a big round parachute that's in rainbow colors.  You might get them to run under the parachute. And what I found with the toddler who is it takes on a rhythm of its own anyway. So eventually all that keyed up energy, there comes a settling point when then they're ready to sit down and maybe sing some songs or play a ball game or something like that. But the big thing about parenting is that whatever energy you're exuding, the kids pick it up and mimic it right away. So if you're stressed out, they get more hyper. And so I think the biggest thing with the support of the other people in the group is that it can bring a relative calm to a situation. And, you know, we have our issues where somebody does something and gets hurt or somebody smacks somebody else. I mean, I'm talking children. And, you know, those. No parents fights. No, no, no parents. No soccer moms or hockey moms. But, but, you know, it works itself out. It comes to a natural rhythm. So with the toddler who is it tends to shift a little bit. So what we what we did was sometimes we would walk. So sometimes we'd have them in the stroller and we'd be hiking. And so that would be the opportunity where we could get to talk. Sometimes it just became a play date about the kids. So we always had an activity available. So the other thing was bubbles. Bubbles are great. Bubbles are like the go-to cheap tool. You can make your own with Dawn dish soap. And I see you brought some. I did bring some, but I'm not allowed to use them in your studio because I might mess things up. That's the other thing about toddlers. Very messy, very messy. Everybody's armed. That's the other thing having other parents around. Everybody has their extra diapers or their extra wipes or extra food or.  Yeah. Now the whole thing about role modeling that you got into is if we role model calm, then the kids start coming down. And that's pretty hard for some parents, but that's something you can help them with and teach them, right? Well, the thing about the curriculum that we walk through. So when I say curriculum, it's not like every week we're there, you know, you're going to get tested on this. Although we did have homework at the beginning. And one of the homework things was do something for yourself this week. And you had to come back and report like what did you do for that hour or whatever. Because parents get so wrapped up in everything that is going on with their children's lives. They forget to eat. They forget to bathe. They forget, you know, I remember we had a, we have a single father of twins who, I forget what was going on that day, but I actually said to him, go take a shower. Take a shower now. And you were able to do that diplomatically. Yeah. Oh, in my diplomatic way, just like that. Go take a shower now. So yes, so we might not focus that much on whatever the topic is of the day. And because we're on Facebook and we do email and texts and all of those kinds of things, it might be a discussion that continues on after the actual meeting. And what we find with the Huys is people form lifelong friendships. So not only the parents, but the children are growing up. We can ask you about the children's friendships. The cohorts that they develop. So, you know, my son knows every auntie's name that's been in our Huey and, you know, will actually ask for those particular aunties at any given time.  You don't know what you're going to do that day. You can phone up one of your Huey friends. And we've had testimonials for people who did it like 25, 30 years ago. They saved my life and I'm still friends with so-and-so. And our kids went to college together or romances spurred on. We're going to have to take a break in just a minute, but, you know, you mentioned communication. And one of the things I'd like to go into after the break is everybody says we live in the age of communication with our iPhones and everything, but it's a different kind of communications than we had when we were kids. So I'd like to talk a little bit about that when we come back from break. I'm going to turn that right away and thank you for joining us. This is Shrink Wrap, Hawaii, and Think Tech Hawaii. And my name is Ken Burtness and I'll be right here when you get back. Thank you. Hey, how are you doing? Welcome to Abachi Talk. My name is Andrew Lanning. I'm your co-host. And we have a nice program here every Friday at one o'clock, Think Tech Studios where we talk about technology and we have a little bit of fun with it. So join us if you can. Thanks. Aloha. Hi, I'm Donna Blanchard. I'm the host of Center Stage, which is on Wednesdays at 2 o'clock here on Think Tech. On Center Stage, I talk with artists about not only what they do and how they do it, but the meat of the conversation for me is why they do it, why we go through this. A lot of us are not making our livings doing this and a lot of us would do this with our last dying breath if we had that choice. And that's what I love to talk to people about. I hope you enjoy watching it and I hope you get inspired because there's an artist inside you too. Join us on Center Stage at 2 o'clock on Wednesdays. Bye. Aloha. Hey, Jackal. University of Hawaii football team under Rolovitch is going to kick butt this season. In case you didn't understand me, University of Hawaii football team is going to kick butt under Rolovitch this season. So be sure to follow us on Think Tech Hawaii and Hibachi Top. I'll be at every game. And remember, Aloha. Welcome back to Shrink Rap Hawaii. I'm Ken Burtness and I'm here with J. M. McHugh. And we're talking about parenting, the hardest job in the world. So just before the break, I just wanted to talk about communications again because we're sitting there and you see everybody looking at this iPhone. You see them looking at the iPads and they're talking to people and they're doing things and people say, well, this is the age of communication. This is the glory age. And yet it's a different kind of communication than you and I sitting here talking to each other. What's the big difference there? Well, the thing is, I've been on hikes, for instance. You're in the middle of nature. The whole thing is hikes with Keiki. The point is to be out there enjoying nature and I see the kids that are under four, I'd say, under four and they've got the iPhone with them.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, trip over that roof or whatever kind of thing. So it doesn't give kids any cognizance of nonverbal cues which at their early stages in development are really important. That's when all those synapses are firing to pick up what is being said. You know, like when Dad used to give you the look. I mean, when I was being raised, no voices had to be raised. It was just the look, right? The look was enough to get you to do whatever needed to be done. So those kinds of things are being completely missed now because kids are attached. So the whole thing about Huey, and again, I emphasize it's really nice to do it outside, is getting down on their level. So we inevitably have a parachute or a picnic blanket out and you're down on their level, operating at their level. And I think that's one of the things that people are missing as far as the joys of parenting go. It's like you're always up above, giving the commands, don't do this, do as opposed to getting down there and having fun with them and playing because that's how they're learning. That's another great thing about Huey, is we walk through the stages of development of a child. So we actually do what's it called, these ASQs. I'm sorry. That's okay. While you're doing that, one of the things I used to do in adolescent psychology when I was teaching them is I would make all my students who were adults get down on their knees and I would just ask them to describe what was around them. And now they're looking up to doorknobs and they're looking up to this and everything is like this, instead of like this. And it takes them back and most of the adults that I work with and interact with children have forgotten what it's like to be a child, forgotten what it's like just the physicality of looking up, looking around. That stuff that you mentioned at the beginning where there's so much information, so much learning happening, they've forgotten that flood of new things because there's so much now that isn't new and they've forgotten the joy of learning new stuff.  You can watch your kid and you can see their eyes, is that eyes light up and you can see connections coming in and the kid is saying, oh my God, I've never seen that before. What is that, Dad? Or what is that, Mom? And if you can be there for that and sort of remember and relive that, it's a joy. It is. That was my answer to your, I think, presupposed question of what was my greatest joy of parenting or what is my greatest joy of parenting. And that's it. You're seeing a thought process form, a creative process form. You see the aha moment when it happens but you don't see it if you're upstairs getting the dinner ready or getting the homework ready or whatever. And I know all of those things have to be done but the house is always going to be dirty or untidy. The meal is going to get out there. The homework is going to get done and you have to take those moments and just really be present. And even if you do it in a structured way, that's, I don't know, that's what I have found has been the biggest benefit of saying I'm going to have this hour I'm going to take one hour, maybe it's 15 minutes in some cases but it's going to be this chunk of time and I'm going to be totally present with my child or children right then. And if it's on their level, all the better. I was watching a film the other night about a famous singer and who's now my age. And she was saying that one of the things that she regretted when she was raising her kid was that she would be totally into her kid and then the phone would ring and she would be out of that with the kid and it would be something with her career or something important and that connection would be cut. And these hours that you're talking about are the 15 minutes where you spend with the kid, it really needs to be without the cell phone, without the connection with the other world where you just can devote that time to your kid. Otherwise it's going to send the wrong message out if you're there and then all of a sudden you're gone. And I mean, I'm as guilty of this as any other parent because my child is the most photographed child on the planet. I noticed that. But if you can actually have an experience without taking the picture of having the experience, the memory is what you're creating right there. It doesn't have to be plastered over Facebook or written about in a journal or I mean sometimes I feel like, I want to go and write this down. He just said that really funny thing and I know I'm not going to remember it later, but the moment is the important thing. Yeah. But you do, and I have to tell a story to the audience about this. Jamie and I met at the Wynward Writing Retreat and we've been going together there or meeting up there for a couple of years and I've had the chance to read some of Jamie's material and it's been a lot about her son but it's not just a journal type of thing. It's not just recording it. It's also creating the moment and creating the things that come out of that. It's a creative process and so I've had the joy of reading some of Jamie's creative words about what it's like to be a mother and what it's like to raise a kid and it's a joy. It makes you more creative when you're in that mode and you're seeing your kid open up to all these new things. It opens you up to all these new things and new ideas and you think, I can write about that or I can do about that or I can connect it up this way. Yeah, I mean I have a kind of unique situation in that I gave birth when I was almost 52 years old so we've been trying for 14 years and we've been foster parents and we were going to adopt and all of this so we have this miracle baby but what I realized when I went to Huey is that I was in the same position at people at the other end of the scale who were very young and had children were all going like, ah, okay, now what? And I read the books. I read all the books but the books don't give you anything when you're there in the moment and he's fallen off the bed that's three feet off the ground and you think, did I just give him brain damage? So the reassurance of having that cohort and the other great thing about Huey is the first time moms, dads, parents they gain so much from the other I mean you can see, I'm sure you see it in your practice baby number one, that's the one that has the 4,000 pictures on face already and baby number two, not so many pictures Yeah, he'll get fed. Oh, he fell off the bed three feet. It's fine, like he bounces. So as... And baby number three? Right. Where are they? Yeah, exactly. Haven't you got them? Oh, no, I'm sure. Oh, look at there. But that's the thing, it's like it does get easier so we're always like reassuring first time parents, maybe one of them is that, you know, you get the hang of it and that's the other thing is talking with these other people you get to see what's normal you know, like that's a phrase that's bantered about all the time you think like, he's not talking yet or she's not walking yet or, oh my goodness, this one's sleeping through the night and ours isn't but you see that every one of them is different, you know and what works for a time like I thought at one point Kamana was sleeping through the night perfectly. I thought, oh my goodness I got six hours sleep last night that was so fantastic and this went on for a couple of months and I thought, I'll get it down and it shifts something changes and automatically you're on to the next thing and I was like, that doesn't work anymore and you're back in sleep deprivation and you know, I mean look at it it's an effective form of torture they use it as torture right so you think you're doing this job that's 24-7 you're sleep deprived you've got a full bladder all the time you've probably got an empty stomach and you're probably dirty because you haven't had a shower so yeah, you're not operating at your best of course and when you think about, okay I get stressed out what happens when you get stressed out all of these things happen in your body and you can't, you know think what's happening to a little person when they're stressed out if they're having a tantrum or whatever I mean, they have all of these big emotions going through, they're surging through their little bodies and you think that they're just going to stop because you want them to because you're feeling embarrassed in public so these ASQs that we do it's a series of questions geared to exactly the developmental level that your child is at so it'll be like 22 months or 13 months or whatever and you walk through them and people will usually get them traditionally maybe at their pediatricians but maybe you're not seeing your pediatrician that often or if your child's going into preschool you might have to answer a set of these but the Huey provides them and we go through them and it just gives you a range and it's not really to say that this child isn't normal it just might flag up something that maybe you want to look at that maybe, you know we're getting toward the end of the show and I did want to, you know, talk about parents looking in on this show and they're saying, okay I mean, you know I've got all this good information, you know and Jamie's been sharing this about the Huey and all that sort of stuff but what's one thing I can do right now to make things a little easier for them and we've already talked about what I think is probably the most critical thing and that one thing is spending some dedicated time with your kid, you know so to make that connection and from there it gets easier but what's, let's talk about one or two other things that they might be able to do right now parents who are looking at this program and looking for some answers, you know or something to make it a little less stressful or maybe get a little more sleep tonight or something to help something to help them. Well one of the things they could do immediately is go to the Huey website and just say I would like to join a Huey tell them the area you're in and the age of your child and we'll get on it so I polled some of my Huey friends to ask them this question and the very first thing that came up was self-care take an hour for yourself and I was like but that might be in a situation where they can't do self-care right now and so then a lot of the responses were like oh it's such a cliche but one of the things is count to ten this isn't for the child this isn't for the time out for the child this is for you to get to that place exactly so you can get to that place where you're modeling the kind of behavior that you want to have happen and the thing about those ASQs that I was talking about is that it tells you this is perfectly this is exactly what this child is going through at this stage so that reaction I mean one of our things is how to discipline children right so most parents that's when they get the most stressed out right like the child is doing something you don't want the child to do and you have to deliver whatever your form of discipline is in a very compassionate way in a very calm way too and calm right because it's going to escalate we're running short and it's gone very quickly there's a lot to talk about with parenting and I know people are having problems out there so we just want to talk a little bit about that and maybe we'll get a chance to do it some other time but like I said if you need some help there's always help available here in Hawaii and with Family Huey and a lot of different places can offer support to you and I want to thank you for being with us on shrink wrap Hawaii and I want to especially thank Jamie McCuitt and she has a little something to show a little plug here we're having a benefit this weekend on the 11th of September at Kalama Beach Club and we're going to have a giant water slide which is a great thing for the kids there's lots of beach activities lots of silent auction items and so come join us terrific when is it again? it's September 11th this coming Sunday from 11 to 4 terrific well Jamie thank you so much for joining us thank you and thank you all for being here at shrink wrap Hawaii we've enjoyed it and we hope you have too and Steve Katz will be returning and Steve I hope you're having a wonderful time on your vacation


So in today's a fan Q&A we're joined by Magic Inowski. Magic, thank you so much for joining us, how are you? How are you doing? I'm great. I really miss you guys, so I'm very happy to see you. So we've had lots of questions submitted for you on our social media platforms So let's take a look at what the fans wanted to know. First off, how has the off-season been for you? How have you been keeping busy? What have you been up to? Yeah, it's many things We still work a lot with our workshop Many changes Build some new stuff and yeah, it's always winter is always busy Yeah, and I also been for some holiday for two weeks in Mexico. So yeah winter go very very quick when I'm busy, so If we look now we have like a little bit more than One one and a half month two months to start the season. So yeah, winter winter is quick very quick Definitely, but apart from the speedway, have you been doing anything else? I know you mentioned your holiday Have you been taking part in any other sports at all? Yes, I every day I do something fun and and training a lot and Yeah, doing some sports. I go with my friends to to mounting for a mountain bikes and I Just wait to I just wait when when they will open the ski slopes because I really miss my snowboarding The fans have also seen some fluffy dog faces appear on your Instagram as well. How many dogs do you have? Around my family is many dogs, but actually in our house. We have we have three dogs But yeah, my my brother and his girlfriend have another dog and It's many of them and a lot of my friends have dogs. So yeah, it's many animals Three dogs in one house. That's that's a lot to take care of. I mean, do they cause a lot of trouble at home? Not really actually two of them two of them are on outside but only only one This the smallest boss are in home on my parents in my parents house. So My two dogs they are they stay outside We used to travel like couple times in this winter to the mountain and Me and my friends used to put some Headlights and we go on night time we go to the mountain and Yeah, work work on the mountain and and I just just enjoy the winter No, that sounds that sounds absolutely amazing. It's nice to know that we've got another dog person in the Speedway But the fans wanted to know as well other than Speedway. What is your favorite sport? my favorite sports I Follow a lot UFC MMA But yeah, I follow also also football Maybe not so much motocross and MotoGP, but always when I when I have a chance to watch I always I always really like it. I think the more most the most of the time I watch soccer and UFC Do you think if you weren't a Speedway rider, do you think you could have been a professional in any of those other sports? Have to say have to say but the way to be to be a Speedway rider was very very hard and cost many many hours of training so maybe if I will Do the same with with different different kind of sport. Maybe I can reach some professional level And what is the best rider that you think you've raced against or raced with? The best rider Again against for sure Bartek's Mazlik, Dersiwork, Jason Krabbe, Glenn Clay, it's many of them. There's so many to choose from, isn't there? I cannot miss any of you know, very good riders. So I Can say the level on GP series is very high and most of the riders are In my nightmare And another tough question for you if you could pick your ultimate lineup to race against in a Grand Prix final Which three riders would you want to race against and why? Yes, I will pick Dersi, Dersiwork, I'll put Greg and maybe Tonya Ricas That's definitely a good choice. I like those three. Do you think you have a good chance against them? If I jump from the start, maybe I will have a chance And I know you mentioned Greg Hancock You've got a very close relationship with the Speedway legend. The fans were keen to know What is the best piece of advice that he has ever given you? To never change I mean as a person Don't get don't take too many things to my head if I'm losing or If I have hard time How I how I have talked with the people and how I see everything get on the Speedway It's many things because Greg always when we talk when we have a chance to talk we he always Try to give me some good advice. So It's always it's always good to talk with Greg No, definitely that that sounds like amazing advice And I think all the fans would be really pleased to know that you have taken that on you've been you've been so lovely with the fans You're always really engaging Excellent in autograph sessions as well. Do you still speak to Greg quite a lot? Yes, I'm we're still in contact Greg still helps me a lot With my career and Maybe we will have a chance to work maybe even more so he's still behind my behind my back and Still push push me to to get better results every day Fans also want to know what your favorite track to race on is but you can't say Ross. Well so I would say is Moira I'm more Moira because that's very good racing track couple good good lines And I know this track pretty pretty good. So Maybe that's right and The fans also want to know whether we'll see the blonde hair maker come back again. Is this something that will see resurface in 2021?  Um, I never Think too long about that That's only only hers. So I can cut them or make them to different color every day. So Thank you so much for joining us today magic. We're really looking forward to seeing you back this season so I just yeah, and I want just want to say hello to all the fans and Hopefully we we can see big group of fans on the stadiums


Hello and welcome to the latest Lowy Institute event. My name is Jonathan Pryk, Director of the Lowy Institute's Pacific Islands program. Let me begin by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, on whose land I speak to you today and acknowledging their elders past and present. It has been a busy few months for the Solomon Islands. The leaking of the draft text of a proposed Solomon Islands-China Framework Agreement on Security in late March has sent alarm bells ringing across the Western world. Facing domestic and international pressure, rather than backing down, the Sogobarei government rushed to sign the agreement just a few weeks later, potentially setting Solomon Islands onto a course that could upend the security and geopolitical landscape in the Pacific. Concern has been particularly acute in Australia, where these developments have crashed into a hotly contested federal election campaign that some have tried to frame around the issues of national security. A topic my colleague Richard McGregor discussed in detail in another Lowy Institute event today. There has never been a time in recent history when the Pacific has factored so heavily in an Australian election campaign, with the narrative descending to who has dropped the ball and to red lines, and with many security analysts fearing the Solomon Islands is now locked into a trajectory of eventually hosting a Chinese military base, a prospect that would fundamentally change the way Australia looks at its own defence and security. But through all of this noise, what does the Solomon Islands-China Security Agreement really mean for Solomon Islands and the region? How is it being perceived in Solomon Islands? What were the drivers behind Sogobarei government signing the deal? And what are China's ambitions in Solomon Islands and beyond in the broader Pacific? To try and answer all these questions and more, I am joined by a stellar panel of experts on Solomon Islands. Dorothy Wickham is a highly experienced media and communications specialist with an in-depth understanding of Pacific Island politics, cultures and effective communication practices. Dorothy was a long-standing host of what was Ramsey's National Radio Talkback Program Talking Truth and managing editor of the One News Television, founding editor of social media site Melanesia News Network and coordinator of SeaChange Solomon Islands. Dorothy is a trusted voice in Solomon Islands and the Pacific. Dorothy, it's great to see you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Next is James Batley. James is a distinguished policy fellow at the Department of Pacific Affairs at the Australian National University. James joined ANU following a distinguished career at DFAT, where his career highlights included postings to Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu and Indonesia, as well as head of mission in Timor-Leste and Fiji. Most importantly, James was high commissioner to Solomon Islands from 1997 to 1999 and returned as coordinator of the regional assistance mission to Solomon Islands from 2004 to 2006. James finished his career at DFAT as a deputy secretary. James, thanks for being here. Hi, Jonathan. And finally, we have Graham Smith. Graham is a fellow at the ANU's Department of Pacific Affairs and is Australia's leading expert on China's engagement in the Pacific Islands. He has a particular focus on how Chinese infrastructure contractors adapt and influence the business and political environment in Pacific Island states, a subject quite pertinent to it for today's discussion. Graham also hosts the award-winning Little Red podcast with former NPR and BBC journalist Louisa Lin, which explores Beijing China beyond the Beijing Beltway. Graham, hello there. Good to see you, John. All right, Dorothy, I would like to get started by asking a simple but big question of you. How are things on the ground in Honiara and what are the major concerns or opportunities people are sharing with you about this deal? I think there's a sense of people are fed up with it now and tired and they want to move on with the subject. But as you know, the overseas media is still very much covering this issue, which of course some others see. And that's the benefits of having internet and social media. So the discussion is still ongoing. You see people commenting on Prime Minister Sugovara's comments on the floor of parliament in regards to this security treaty. So it's an ongoing subject. Thanks, Dorothy. James, this story has obviously been big news in Australia. What's got people so animated? Is this all being overblown and inflamed by the election? Or should we be genuinely concerned about recent developments? I think it's a genuinely significant and important development in terms of the way that Australia has always looked out into its immediate region. It's always been a really important element of Australian policy to or perhaps a better word to use is it's been an ongoing anxiety of successive Australian governments about the possibility of hostile powers or potentially hostile powers establishing themselves in countries and territories that border on Australia. That's an anxiety that goes back in fact to before Australia became a country, to before Federation. So I think this agreement, even though it's as we I guess we should agree, it's not necessarily an agreement to establish a base, but it may provide grounds for that. It seems to me the other thing that seems to me is that even though China has established some form of security cooperation with a number of countries in the Pacific over the past decade or so, this agreement seems to me to be qualitatively different in terms of its scope, its open-ended nature. So I think the Australian government, I think its concern is well. But James, just a follow-up, I mean, you raise that there are unique elements of this deal, such as, you know, the police in arrangements and the agreements on the request of Solomon's government for Chinese forces to come and protect Chinese citizens and assets. But does this logically lead us to a base? I mean, it seems like it's still a mental stretch to see that that's the next step. I mean, there surely must be many more steps in between and many more steps that the Solomon Islands government would have still been a driver's seat on. In and of itself, not necessarily. There's a couple of questions there, though. One is, you know, what might a base look like? And in some respects, this base discussion is a bit misleading because it's, I think the broader issue is access, not necessarily a base. But I think also we need to see this agreement in the broader context of a pattern of Chinese behaviour over the last few years. And I think it's that pattern of behaviour that that leads me and I think it leads a lot of other people to conclude that the intention of this agreement is not simply on the part of China to help Solomon Islands domestically with its own security issues, that there is a broader geostrategic agenda at work. And indeed, one that is that is designed to undermine what we might think of as Western interests in this part of the world. I do think there has been a debate in both government circles and academic circles, etc., about what exactly China's intentions are in this part of the world. But I think this agreement has given us those of us that don't have access to confidential government information, a much better steer about what China might be up to. Probably Graham is better qualified to comment on that, though. Well, that's exactly where I wanted us to lead next. But yes, it's certainly hard for those who've talked about the China's benign interests in the Pacific to still mount that argument. But Graham, you and I have been talking about China's interests in the Pacific for the better part of a decade. And I know you've been looking at it for even longer than that. There has been a lot of talk about what the steel could mean for Australia. But what does the steel mean for China? What are China's ambitions in Solomon Islands and the broader Pacific? And a final question, I mean, back to focus on your research topic here, is how does China build that influence? So what are the levers that it is using in a place like Solomon Islands to try and build that influence and achieve its goals? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say on the first question of what their ambitions are in the South Pacific, because unlike Solomon's, the Chinese government doesn't leak much. So we're unlikely to see a document framing out exactly what their ambitions are. And it is a long way from their shipping lanes and things of commercial interest to them. So compared to Djibouti, compared to Rim in Cambodia, it's not the top of their list for places to build a base. And I absolutely agree with James' skepticism there. But as he says, it's about access. It's about can you dock your ships there? Can you sort of have the sort of support you need to be a global Navy? Because that's the ambition is eventually they want a Navy that has similar prestige to that of the United States. And you don't have that sort of prestige if you don't, you know, have places at the very least rather than bases. In terms of the levers, which is a really interesting question. The levers for a long time in the Pacific have been companies. Generally state-owned companies with the exception of Huawei, which is a nominally private company, but these state-owned companies are probably the ones to watch if you're looking at something approaching that red line of a base. And as James alluded to, this whole question of red lines is a little bit dubious because as Obama discovered, you know, during a red line and then not acting on it is, you know, catastrophic for your credibility as a global power. But in this case, if you look at the actors who are leading China's push in the Pacific, they're the same ones you see in Djibouti, they're the same companies you see in Cambodia. It's these big Chinese companies such as CCDC, China Harbour and something approaching a base would be great for them because it's work, it's a commercial contract. And it's something that they have people on the ground to to promote. So, you know, whereas they might not be briefed in on national security meetings and so forth, they know very well what the intent is from the top and they know responding to signals makes them more likely to get the nod on projects. Yeah, we always we debate what China's ambitions are in the Pacific over and over and over. And as you say, we're never going to get the elite strategy, but, you know, it could be natural resources, it could be access, it could be basing, it could be political influence, it could be UN votes, it could be counter in Taiwan, it could be commercial interests. It could be private private sector interests. It could be, you know, getting a contract and making money or it could be all of the above. I'm of the mind that it's all of the above, you know, China is so big there are ambitions that that span the span the spectrum. So and all of them, I think, are coming to play in Solomon Islands right now. Dorothy, I want to come back to you here. There's clearly been a Chinese presence in Solomon Islands long before 2019, but what does the Chinese presence look like today in Solomon Islands and how are the Chinese viewed in Honiara? I know that's a loaded question because there are a lot of varying perspectives. But how do people talk to you about China and in Solomon's? There's a general consensus that. They've they've moved in and they moved in fast and big. Their aid, as you know, here is a very physical you can actually see and touch and for the last 40 years, I think we've not had much big infrastructure projects, especially if you you're looking at donor assistance, apart from New Zealand's big, huge work in the Western province with the International Airport and also the road from Munda to Noro, which are two big, huge projects that people in the rural area can see and actually say, yes, this is this is aid coming from a particular country. And I think this is where Australia I won't use the term fail, but I think the misunderstanding of a lot of every Solomon Islands is that aid has to look like a concrete building, has to be a bridge, has to be a wolf. I think Australian aid, as we all know, has focused a lot on governance and as the work with Ramsey has always been in the background, strengthening government institutions, especially in terms of our finance, debt collecting, taxation, policing. And it's a it's the kind of aid that if you if you talk to an average Solomon, they wonder where all the money goes. And also, you know, that term boomerang aid, that's also one that is always referred to when they talk about Australian aid. So I think it's also a language thing and also an understanding of how our aid works. And I think that's where we have that issue in the Solomon Islands, that the Solomon Islands don't appreciate how much we get out of Australia. I think but one of the biggest classes for Australia over the last few years is the seasonal worker scheme that ordinary Solomon Islands feel the effect, they see it, they see the benefits in their neighbours, somebody in their village, somebody they're related to. So that's a that's a a support that Australia I think should use, leverage, because I think that's where I have said social interaction between our countries needs to be enhanced, I think. We've always, I think, taken for granted Australia's presence in this country. And I think that needs to be worked on. And maybe, as I've said before, narratives need to change and maybe focus. It's something that the Australian government and people will need to relook and maybe adjust. Jonathan. Thanks, Dorothy. Thanks, Dorothy. I mean, you're preaching, I think, to the choir on labour mobility in this panel, because I think we all agree that it's definitely a really important initiative to expand and to that can really underpin, I think, future relations in the Pacific. You know, James, coming back to you here and talking about Australian aid, you've, of course, had a lot to do with Australian aid over many years in Solomon's. What do you think about Dorothy's assessment here?  Is there should Australia be recalibrating, doing a bit more in that space?  Yeah, I think Dorothy certainly put her finger on a broader issue in the in the relationship between Solomon Islands and Australia. I think for a very long time, it's been very narrowly based on government to government relations. There's not, for instance, there's not a lot of trade between Solomon Islands and Australia. So there isn't a strong business lobby that's got a stake in the relationship. And there's a tiny Solomon Islands community in Australia. So again, that that the people to people links are not nearly as strong as they could be. Now, with I agree with the labour mobility, that is building a much stronger foundation for the relationship. It's broadening that relationship out. So I think looking in the medium and longer term, that's going to be a really, really important part of of relations. If we're thinking about the aid program specifically, it's clear that Australia is already making moves to to to broaden the focus of its work. So I think I saw an announcement just in the last few days of Australia being part of a group of donors involved in the major being a harbour development in Milita. Of course, Australia has been helping with the Tina River hydro project as well. These are major national projects. I do think, Dorothy, the the Japanese government might be feeling a bit that you've neglected their their really big contribution in the infrastructure area over the years. And I I think perhaps in the past, Australia has seen that countries like Japan or organisations like the Asian Development Bank have looked after the infrastructure side of development, whereas Australia has really focused on strengthening government institutions. I think for Australia, it's always been very important that to support government institutions in Solomon Islands. Having said that, I think Australia has learned a lot of lessons over the course of many years in understanding that, you know, just just strengthening central government institutions based in Honiara doesn't necessarily have a kind of trickle out impact on the lives of Solomon Islanders, the 80 percent of Solomon Islanders that are living in villages right across the country. I think that's one of the real take home messages of the Ramsey period. You know, for all the good that Ramsey did, I think in restoring law and order and restoring government finances. But that that impact at the grassroots level, I think, is something that I know that Australian policymakers and planners wrestle with that question and are asking themselves, you know, how do we have that that broader impact on the lives of ordinary Solomon Islanders? So to sum all that up, yes, I think we can see some evolution in the way Australia is thinking about these approaches in Solomon Islands. Thanks, James. Now, Dorothy, there is one as James alluded to, there is one missing pillar here with Australia's relationship in Solomon Islands, that is the commercial one. But of course, China has extremely strong commercial ties in Solomon Islands. How does that look on the ground? You know, I've been a Honiara many times and you see all the trade stores, of course, but there's but I would say more business interest coming in after 2019. And that that that is an area that really, really needs to be addressed by the government and also its donor partners. I think that the trade between Solomon Islands and Australia is a difficult one for a country like us. Meeting the requirements for exports into Australia, it's quite difficult and also volume, I think volume is one key and access to the markets, to getting where it is located to a port. And as you know, we only have two international ports, CSC ports, which is Noro and Honiara, then the rest of the country has to feed into these two ports. So it's it's a it's a difficult thing, I think. But it's one that's maybe something that can be discussed. I mean, if you have the right people sitting in the right place, talking and facilitating trade, I think it can be done. But of course, we sit here in Solomon Islands, we always seeing announcement of taro, we mean put it to Australia, cassava to New Zealand. And it's a bit appeal to solo because this, as you know, every Solomon Islands is a landowner owns land. And I think that's the biggest resource that we have that we can claim and how to utilize that and benefit from it. I think that's that's the key. Some somebody said to me, I think it was the former CEO of the Development Bank of Solomon Islands, Mr. Tukana Bovaro. He said, the the willingness to work, the work ethic to work. If you're talking agriculture, fisheries, we have it here in the Solomon Islands. But it's it's also the financial education that is very much lacking on the ground. And I think those are the areas that maybe Australia could look at and help facilitate through Australian funded projects like Strong Business. They've done done quite good work in that regard over the last few years that Strong Business has been established in in the Solomon Islands, helping ecotourism and other businesses strengthen their foundations. But I want to speak on what James was saying. I agree that Australia has focused on the nuts and bolts and which is the governance issues. But then there's that I always use this argument. How can you educate Solomon Islands on what it means to have a good government system, a good governance when education is lacking on the ground? That's why I keep saying over and over again in every platform that I can use that education is our key. And of course, that for us, you know, health health is the next one. And I think this is where one area where maybe Australia can boost its support into Solomon Islands. We need we really need funding pushing 100 percent, 110 percent education, I think that that would be the key.  You don't really have to work too hard to talk issues of crime, prevention, issues of governance, corruption. When you have an educated society who understands these issues. And if you look at Fiji, I think Fiji is a good example of that on average, education is free for them. And which means on average, you have a pretty well educated society who is aware and understands issues of governance. And I think that that's where I really feel strongly that if Australia and New Zealand are to help here and also that could be part of this people to people enhancing of relationships between Australia and the Solomon Islands is through education as well. Could I come in there? Could I come in there, Jonathan? I mean, I don't think this is one of the challenges that Australia faces because there are so many demands and expectations. Australia has very significant aid programs in both education and health in Solomon Islands. Alongside the work in the economic side, strong in government, alongside the security work, the policing support and general governance support. So I mean, that is there. But as I say, I think there are so many demands that inevitably choices have to be made. There are we have Solomon Islands PhD students in Australia. Those are very expensive scholarships. Of course, they produce high quality scholars. But then that's the trade off, perhaps the primary education end of the equation. So I mean, I just think governments on both sides need to keep talking about those issues to get the balance right. But it's it's not it's not easy. Clearly, a lot more we can discuss on on the aid fronts and clearly a lot of unfinished business for the Australian aid program. But before we jump away from the. And of course, Australian aid is dwarfs that what China has been providing since 2019 in the aid space and looks like set to continue. But I do want to touch back, Graham, with you on China's commercial interests in Solomon's. And I use this commercial interest very broadly in that you have the trade stores and I don't think that the Chinese sitting in their tennis umpire chairs in the corner bossing around the local staff really help build influence in the country. But then you also have the state and enterprise. You have private sector investment. You have the logging industry. And of course, you have the major SOEs you touched on earlier that and you see these MOUs coming out every almost every week now, talking about creating an airline industry in the Solomon's or or leasing the two light the island of Tulagi. And could you kind of unpack that a bit for us? Like, how does how does China use this these broad and like and loosely connected commercial interests to exert its influence in a place like Solomon's? Yeah, I mean, one thing, a helpful starting place is probably the Belt and Road Initiative and how they define that. So they have this thing called the Five Connectivities, which covers a whole, well, basically five areas that they're looking to exert influence in. And one of them actually is the shopkeepers. It comes under people to people relations. And that's been a huge problem from the past. I mean, they had a report after the 2006 riots where they said, we've got to do something to stop these people leaving our shores because they're destroying China's reputation. They're actually talking about stopping them going to Solomon's at the Chinese border because their quality was too low and we shouldn't let them out of the country. And they're costing us so much because they cause all these riots and that the agency, the overseas Chinese, the overseas Chinese Affairs Office blame them for the riots in 2006. They said, look, these guys brought it on themselves because they're such trash. Now, obviously, this group didn't really welcome the switch. When I talked to them in 2009, they were very much, no, no, we're really happy for them to stay with Taiwan because if they switch, there'll be more competition. There'll be more Chinese businesses coming in and it's going to be bad for our business, which is, of course, what has happened. So at the top level, you have these big companies. CCECC is really leading the way in Solomon's. They basically pitched the switch to Sogavari and his entourage. You also have China Harbour, which is a really significant state-owned enterprise. So the thing about these companies is they're so big, they actually outrank the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So in terms of deciding what happens on the ground in Solomon's, you would assume the ambassador has a leading role, not really. He has to listen to these companies because they're more powerful than he is in a political sense, not just an economic sense. So they are really the ones to watch in terms of what happens in the future in China. And then you have this other really interesting category that what you might call the ideas entrepreneurs like China Sam, who kind of pop up and are behind a lot of these MOUs and a lot of these funny things that get leaked. But if you, China Sam kind of sounds like a joke because of the name. But if you look at their securities, they're exactly the kind of entities you would be looking to to build a base abroad. They are connected to companies that have the license to sell, for example, weapons abroad, which definitely isn't the case for many companies. So it's an interesting, if you like, melange of Chinese commercial actors. But the thing they have in common is they have skin in the game and they're looking to promote their own interests. And these days, because of the BRI, they're looking to align those interests with signals from the top. Thanks, Graham. I mean, we may laugh at all these MOUs that just, you know, because we know these countries seem farcical. I remember the one in Western province and Daru in Papua New Guinea for a major fishing refinery, which, you know, there's no there's no tuna in that part of the country and also Daru has major TV issues. But, you know, but all China needs is for one of these to stick, right, and to get interest from Beijing and someone to buy it and the money to flow. And, you know, the person pitching gets gets their cut and but and it can upend the whole the whole like strategic framework in the Pacific. So they are they are still very important to watch. James, I'd like to zoom out again and focus again on the Australia Solomon Islands relationship. Now, we talked about the aid, the aid side of things, which, of course, has been a really dominant part of this relationship. But I was hoping you could help us unpack some of the complicated history of Australia's engagement with Solomon's in the last two decades and help us help to explain what what Australia's long term interests are in Solomon's. Yeah, I was thinking back to when I went to Honiara as High Commissioner, which was quite a long time ago now in 1997. And I have to say back then, I remember doing my rounds of government departments in Canberra before I left for that posting. And there was really, I have to say at the time, very little knowledge and understanding about Solomon Islands. At that time, our aid program with Solomon's was very small, something in the order of $12 million a year, I think. It was it was pretty much a, I think, a neglected relationship. I think it started to become, to come into focus over the course of the Bougainville crisis when we had, there was those spillover effects of Bougainville into Solomon's. And also Solomon's became a, in a sense, a back door for humanitarian supplies and for people to move in and out of Bougainville. And I think from a Canberra perspective, that's when Solomon started to come into focus. And it underlines one of the, I think, the key interests that Australia has. It is that relationship between Solomon's and Bougainville and Papua New Guinea more generally because, of course, that border between Papua New Guinea and Solomon's is an artificial colonial creation. I guess what really brought Solomon's, of course, to attention in Canberra was the outbreak of the tensions. The, or the, called the ethnic tensions in, I guess, 1999 through to 2003. This is the period where you saw the rise of armed militant factions based in Guadalcanal and the response from militant factions and really the disarming of the police force so that the state lost the monopoly on violence. And there was a serious breakdown in law and order and in the effectiveness of government. And this certainly grabbed the attention of the Australian government and to cut a long story short led to the start of Ramsey in 2003. But I guess it took the Australian government quite a bit of internal thinking and debate to move into that very assertive, that strong leadership position that it took in Ramsey. For I think for a long time Australia was trying to support the police in Solomon's. It was trying to support non-government organisations like the Red Cross to help manage this period of the tensions. But it was a real sea change in Australia's approach in the middle of 2003 when Ramsey was deployed in response to a request from the Prime Minister at the time. So of course that wasn't Australia by itself. It was Australia and other members of the Pacific Island Forum. But the great bulk of personnel were Australians, whether that's military, police or civilians. And in a space of a very short period of time you had hundreds of Australian personnel rotating in and out of Solomon Islands, interacting with, meeting with Solomon Islanders working in all different parts of the country. And again from a Canberra point of view, quite quickly Solomon's became a major government priority. And I guess the overall objective was can we help to firstly to bring about peace between these war infections, to disarm those militant groups, to restore law and order, but then to restore the functioning of the efficient and effective functioning of government. And again that's I think addresses another significant Australian interest in Solomon Islands and in the Pacific Islands more broadly. I think Australia has always felt that instability or vulnerability or fragility as a range of words we might use in the region does directly affect Australia's national interests. It does so because it means that the governments in the region themselves could be vulnerable to organised criminal groups, could be vulnerable to or don't have the capacity to respond to natural disasters, don't have the capacity to serve their own service their own populations in ways that would raise living standards and reduce disease, child mortality or that sort of thing. So I think that was certainly the focus of Australia's interest around 2003. The Prime Minister at the time John Howard used to say one of the one of the justifications that he put forward in talking about Ramsey to the Australian Parliament was that if Solomon Islands did become a failed state at the time then perhaps it could become a haven for international terrorists. I guess we need to think that this was in the context of the war on terror. It's only a short time after 9-11. But if you think back to 2003 and I'll stop talking in a minute, no one back in 2003 was thinking about China. It really wasn't part of the calculation. Of course, Solomon's at the time had relations with Taiwan and that contest between China and Taiwan had been simmering for a number of years in the Pacific. But that, it doesn't seem to me, was a real driver of Australian policy at the time. So I think I hope that very long answer responds to your question about Australian interests in Solomon's. Let me just summarize that by saying I think in a sense Australia does feel a responsibility given that it is a rich developed country in a neighbourhood of poorer developing states and that in that sense it does have, it feels this responsibility to assist with development. But that also serves Australia's own national interests. Thank you, James. I think it's really important to remind people that our interests is Solomon's predate China and go far beyond China and will continue to into the future. And it's no country, the only other country I think it was Timor-Leste where Australia has had such an interventionist role in a country in the nation building effort. And so whilst Australians may not think about Solomon Islands every day, I guarantee many people in Solomon Islands do think about Australia every day and have had direct exposure to Australians in various capacities in their country. And whilst Ramsey was a success, James, you and I were both and Dorothy I'm sure you were there as well were all at the end of Ramsey celebrations in 2017. And it was a really cathartic moment it felt for Solomon Islands, for the region more broadly and for Australia and for Sogavare who we'll come back and talk about in a moment. But it certainly does mean that there must be some really complicated emotions about Australia in Solomon Islands. I mean Dorothy what can you tell us a bit more about that? Like how is Australia viewed? I mean I know there's varying opinions but there must be a range of perspectives in the community and are they at all different from views in Parliament? I think you're right in saying that Ramsey played a huge role in giving access to Australians, to people in our rural areas and vice versa, people in our rural areas having personal contact not only with Australians. You had the New Zealanders, the PJs, the Tongans, every single forum island country member and because of their postings into some of the most remote parts of the country it was a special time and I think a lot of Somalis still maintain that those personal relationships they've had with Ramsey, whether it's military police or consultants who came in and out of the Somalis during that period. And I think that's where Australia basically dropped the ball was when they pulled out from Ramsey or closed it down would be the right term. There was that sense of a gap left. It was funny because during that period of Ramsey it wasn't always a hundred percent a good relationship. There were times we'd had parliamentarians ranting in Parliament about Australia and Australia pushing its power around here and then as we went towards closer to the time they were leaving Somalis didn't realise that the withdrawal was done in such a way that you just started to see less and less of Australian police officers on the road and little posts in the rural areas started to close down and there were a lot of personal farewells between people who had become friends and it just slowly wound itself down. I think the Ramsey exit was done very well. So well the Somalis didn't realise that it was up, the Ramsey was finished and even though it was a long time people felt like it was just yesterday. But I think that's a lesson that maybe Australians and Somalis can really look or review and look back on and try and rebuild this relationship. I think we've gone through a few weeks of us really scrutinising and really looking at our relationship with Australia and I think Somalis, I seem to notice on social media there's a slight tilt towards Somalis being more appreciative of what Australia is doing and you see it coming out more in terms of when there's a post or there's a release on Somalis going out to work in Australia and that's when you see Somalis actually acknowledge and say yes we have benefited from Australia's assistance despite whatever it is issues we have with Australia as a long-term partner and a neighbour and as you know the unfortunate use of the term backyard has been taken totally out of next year now just over the last 24 hours it's just gone all over the place with the Prime Minister using it in a rant in parliament and it's just social media commentary has just been hilarious. I think James has been following that. No, I avoid social media. Dorothy I have been following the social media over the last 24 hours following Prime Minister Sogovarra's colourful language in parliament yesterday. We won't repeat the language here but I encourage people to go have a look if they're interested in seeing the sorts of narratives we hear in about Australia and Australia language used about Solomons in Solomons parliament. Of course the man at the centre of all of this is one who is prone to a good speech in parliament that is Prime Minister Manasseh Sogovarra who has been a dominant force in Solomon Islands politics for two decades. Graham you famously or infamously got him on the Little Red podcast in 2019 talking about the upcoming swap. What did you make of the man and what do you think drove him to signing this deal? Look, Dorothy and James both know Manasseh much better than I do but obviously he's very charismatic, a very magnetic personality. He certainly almost has a messianic presence about him and a great self-confidence. But yeah, I mean if you go back and listen to the show it's clear even at the time a lot of his attraction to China was about the feeling that Australia at times pushed them around particularly with regards to Taiwan. That was sort of the first thing he nominated is that they had this policing agreement that they'd signed with Taiwan they were about to send the police to Taiwan and Australia came in and said no no that's not for Taiwan that's our business at least according to him that's how it went. So yeah, one thing I would like to note and I'm sure the other two know this better is you hear this sort of suggestion that he's autocratic because China's in the picture. If you look at his previous three terms autocratic is not new. It pops up every time he's Prime Minister so I don't know you can necessarily pin Sogobare's personality change as it might seem to some people on China this seems to happen every time. Thanks Graeme. I mean James you've probably had more to do with Sogobare over the years than any Australian official. What do you think makes him tick like what what do we need to know about Sogobare to better understand his decision-making. Wow. Well, yeah I think I first came across him when he was the finance minister in the government in the late 1990s. But I think the Prime Minister is a is a very nationalistic man. He's extremely proud to lead his country. He can be a very intense person. I think you know the sort of rhetoric that he uses in parliament. I've had to say to a lot of people in Australia you know since this is characteristic of of Prime Minister Sogobare's style. So you need to to to listen to that sort of rhetoric or to read those words in that broader context. I think a lot of people have found it difficult to get close to him in a personal sense. So they find him quite guarded and with a fairly closed or close circle of advisors around him. You know he's he's lost he's been Prime Minister four times but he's also he's lost power a number of times as well in motions of no confidence. So he doesn't he's clearly got enormous political skills. I mean he's the preeminent political leader I think of his generation but perhaps not always capable of keeping everybody on the on the boat at the same time. Thanks James. Dorothy one of the talk about the closed group around the Prime Minister one of the frustrations of this deal that you voiced is the secrecy that surrounded it. I mean with the final text is still being hidden from the public and we're unlikely to see it. You you have written for the Guardian about your frustrations with the transparency of the Sogobare government. I mean would you mind expanding on this point a bit. Yeah I think like James said this is this is not Sogobare as a result of China and I totally agree with that. This is Sogobare basically and that that's how he speaks and that's his political style you know and what we are used to him. I like James first met him when he was a minister of finance and I was just you know young cadet and I traveled down to the border as part of the western province delegation in relation to some issue we had with the with the Bowen villains and Papua New Guinea to Taru and Choizal but I remember him as a young minister very much sure of what he wanted and I think it frustrates him no end that he even after all these years in parliament he is unable to drive this whole development issue. I mean he comes from Choizal a pretty remote province which has so much difficulty with infrastructure and transportation communication everything that you could think of but then so very close to the Bowen villain PNG that has much better infrastructure and communication facilities but I think one thing one thing about Sogobare I think a lot of summoners tend to forget he is only one person in a cabinet and he's the face he's the face to this government but he has very powerful moves and shakers behind him who hold together his numbers and I think in all all the negativity that has been focused on him I think we summoners need to also take a look at the characters behind him and the reasons for the choices being made I think we really need to look at his his ministers and know their affiliations and their leanings and what are the demands on them from their from their voters and I think I think Sogobare leads a group of people you're talking the Malita and the Guru canal block who have faced a lot of issues in terms of development the western province block is a little different as you know the western province is economically a little bit more self-reliant than if you look on the other into the other provinces and I think the Gora canal the Malita block are the strongholds behind him including the three members of parliament for Honiara which also has positive and negative effects because that's when you have a lot settlements located in Honiara and every single right we have it's always been as a result of young people in the settlements with you know this illusion with what they thought they could have if they came into town just like in the other developing country and they left they left without jobs without education and without any much prospect but like I said over the last few years too we've seen that change mindset because of the seasonal workers program and I think Sogobare if you look at him as a leader he's a very well respected leader in his in his own province and his own constituency that's the reason he's still there and as a person like like James said he's a very intense man he thinks before he talks even that's not very obvious when he speaks in parliament he tends to get very emotional I've noticed that about him he gets very emotional very easily so I think that that's how I see him as a leader thanks Dorothy I mean James and I during the Ramsey celebrations 2017 saw saw that that emotion in full in full flight but it was in out of gratefulness for Ramsey and so it's I don't think we can really you know a lot of this is theatrics I think what we see in parliament so clearly but clearly you know here's as James said he's a dominant figure in Solomon's politics and the figure will have to continue to try to build and maintain this a relationship with for the foreseeable future Dorothy you touch on so many issues I would love to talk more about you know the riots I mean sure the swap may have been a spark but the underlying drivers are the all the points you raised about youth unemployment about economic opportunity about into rate into island tension that all these issues are still so prevalent it's so important to to talk about in Solomon Islands but we are I'm afraid running close to time and I do want to come back to James to ask the question of where do we go from here I mean how will this change the way Australia engages with Solomon Islands and you're a very on a specific point I mean it's a hypothetical one like how do you think the next security crisis if there is one the next riots the next time of unrest where you know Australia is where outside assistance might be needed should there be one which I hope there won't be how will that play out now that the steal has been signed that's a really good question Jonathan I I don't know the answer to that I think I do think one of the impacts of this agreement will be the trust between the Solomon's government and the Australian government will have been damaged whoever is in power after the Australian election nevertheless it does seem that Prime Minister Sovavari was at pains to reassure Australia to say that you remain our our primary security partner I think if there were to be a future security problem Australia would be called on but if China is called on at the same time the coordination between those groups could cause a real problem that could be a real challenge for security planners so I guess we need to cross our fingers that that situation won't arise and if I can do that I think one of the underlying concerns is the purpose and the nature of policing in China is very different to what it is in Australia the police are there to maintain social stability which is a very different goal to to solve in crime that they're pretty rubbish at solving crime you know they claim to be as safe as Switzerland I've lived there for a number of years it's not as safe as Switzerland the police are universally regarded with contempt there because their main thing is to keep a lead on social tensions and so you know if for example only they were called on I mean would Australia then have to come in and bail out the poor old Chinese police who find themselves you know unable to apply their methods or finding that their methods actually make things worse on the ground in Solomon's so there's all kinds of interesting hypotheticals there for us thanks Graham Dorothy any any last words to add I'd like to give you a small snapshot of what we might face I mean just recently in this right Australia of course led in a very small contingent of Fijians and Papua New Guineans and the policing in Papua New Guinea as you know is very different to how Solomon Islands police conducts itself and there were a few small you know spots of trouble in the way they dealt with Solomon Islands you saw it in social media Solomon Islands this is not Port Moes we don't come and push us around and Solomon Islands in that regard are very lucky with our police force even though we complain about them a lot but they're always very respectful of their relationship with the community even our rapid response unit gets hammered whenever they mishandle a situation so I think if we were to get to that stage and if they were to bring in Chinese police officers or under whatever arrangement it is they're going to have a big PR problem because Solomon Islands are more used to the the Pacific style which is Australian New Zealand regional assistance mission made sure it left that mark so whoever's coming after that really really needs to know how to handle this society if not it'll be an absolute miss and it would be something that maybe in the end we'd be asking for Australia to come and clean up again after that do anything yeah absolutely there's also a language issue like I mean in the middle of a Malay in Honiara these these poor Chinese police whose English is probably not that good are they even going to understand what's going on and they certainly won't have the language skills to talk things down and to you know de-escalate which is really as a policeman your most valuable skill is communication not not your riot shield well I think that's I think Dorothy that's a very important message to to leave for for any external power looking to come into the very complicated domestic context in Solomon Islands so you know I could keep talking with you all about for hours on these issues I'm sure we will offline and there's of course much more to unpack from this story as it develops in the months and years ahead and so please do keep an eye on low-institute analysis as the story unfolds but in the meantime thank you to our guests for joining us today and thank you to the audience for your time we look forward to seeing you again soon