hang on that would make it better yeah but that would make it better though no it would make it typically better you have to analyze it okay but then that so then you would have to go into the specifics yeah to determine exactly which we which we can we could do we could go over the tom holland spider-man versus the karmic spider-man and i think that's fair yeah but um would you not agree at that point though if you identified an arc with loads of like setups payoffs all talking about all the journeys and different things comparing it to holland would you not eventually agree that we're not even talking about adaptation at that point you're talking about quality of writing with character versus character well see i don't know i'm not sure you can just disparate like i'm not disregarding i'm asking you an honest question would that not be what we would be doing in that scenario okay well so hang on repeat it again i want to understand so if if you chose this character from this comic book saying this is the one they're adapting from and it's a poor adaptation let me explain why and you explain to me why it's really well written in the comic versus poorly written in the film then you've you've identified a well-written character versus a poorly written one rather than a poor adaption but i don't know this i don't think the same thing well i guess that's our point is that you could have a poorly adapted thing that's actually better written yeah oh okay let me try and process that so you on your like so on a different scale and you know i could agree with that but the then the point of contention would be is the mcu one yeah no and that's the conversation to be had because yeah because i feel absolutely you can improve upon source material and and generally when you improve upon it most people will happily define that as the new standard like if this mcu spider-man was actually better than the comics i think most people will say this is what spider-man is this is the thing we're going to judge everything against from now on and so the quantity argument becomes irrelevant then well no i think it's a bit of a balance having said that like it would have to be pretty darn like good to be out of define but what it what in if that scenario took place if we argued let's just say for 10 years it took really long to identify every single factor and you eventually said and i'm not saying this is possible even i'm just saying a theoretical you said huh tom holland spider-man is the best version of spider-man but it's still badly written because of poor adaptation would you would you still maintain that no um if but if tom horn was able to be a selfish to be a better version based on you know many defined objective things yeah but that's kind of what i'm judging it already on that i feel judging it on objective standards already it's inferior and my and one of the points that i'm comparing it against is the previous spider-man or you know the established spider-man yeah if he was better i'll i'll be happy with that i i want like the and but yeah i want all the things i like to be better to be improved upon if they can it's very difficult when it's already very good and generally attempts to improve on something that is brilliant usually results in inferior adaptation or inferior you know version all right spider-man is unique in how good it is like i guess a character there's a reason why it's popular they like it i mean when i say unique that's going too far there are other things that are equally as good but yeah um would you like to so we can move into far from home oh no wait actually so is everybody as weird as this would everyone like to watch a small video it's only 10 minutes i would love to my friend yeah don't feel bad if you have like for people who want uh death bullshit to talk more like i don't i haven't talked a lot either it's just because the reason we're all here is a very specific reason and if if the reason is being fulfilled it's not on me to interrupt it just because i haven't spoken enough you know yeah like i don't want to force myself to talk too much because like to be perfectly and totally honest with it's like we had gone to that conversation once went to one and then looped straight back around to where we left and so it's all like well you know i've already kind of given what i wanted to say in like the short verse but i don't really have a whole lot of attachment to the adaptations even though i did grow up with spider-man cartoon it's a big ongoing argument we will not solve it in this stream but i think we've i think we've made good progress we got i think we have i really do i don't agree yeah i do agree with chad that there does have to be a certain aspect of something in order for it to be a proper thing like spider-man and batman if it's spider-man he has to have the costume he has to have the webs and he has to climb on the walls stuff like that but then like you know just how far do you bring it you know it's like does he does batman have to kill or not kill does is his does his reasons for doing what he does have to be the same all the time because i feel if we go too far then the adaptations will be too close together and we won't have any interesting stories yeah and i would concede that you're right but i would always identify it as a poor adaptation it may still well be it may still well be written it may still well be well written english is hard yeah and i absolutely agree and on that point i say that homecoming is very good in that respect like you know how about having a 15 year old theater and everything just to get a quick answer from you more so hopefully we won't go too far on this but if the purpose the intent of the um the writing is to be a good adaptation and it's not wouldn't you say then that that's a failure in an element of the writing that would highlight how important intent is and then the concept of death of the author i suppose yeah i guess what would happen if john what said nah i wasn't trying to be accurate but what's good now i guess well again then then the obvious answer then is why the hell even call it spotted yeah but what that's moving the goalpost at that point because it was well what's the intent and yeah i'd have to ask creator said whatever the answer to that question is does it change the result getting an answer to that question see i'm not sure like because by the very virtue of it being called spider-man or star wars or whatever irrespective of the intent of the writer he is not going to be out escape the fact that it needs to be a star wars movie or a spider-man movie and stuff and it actually speaks more to the fact that if they intentionally diverge from what these properties are it's far more likely it's going to be bad will receive even received as bad and stuff like that as a result and that reflects on the writing like i'm not sure yeah i guess we're just repeating ourselves now i still not sure that you can separate oh well i mean dude from the quality of writing if you convinced us of its quality if you convinced us or we convinced you it's gonna redefine how one of us one of these sort of sides it looks at media as a whole so it's not something that's going to come in a couple of sentences in an argument and i hope i hope chat understands that by the way this is a very like i love this conversation but everyone's like oh it's like calm down calm down it's okay they really want us to cover the video so the one the reason why we had to do this before the video is because he's going to make certain statements me me and fringy are going to go one way shad might go the other and so it's good we've got our foundation done so we understand why we go the other ways also someone said the intent is important you can't critique a book for not being a movie a book is a book a movie is a movie you can't critique a book as a movie because that would be critiquing a horse as a car it's impossible you can't do that if someone was to do that they'd be wrong they'd be incorrect they'd be invalid it's not a standard that applies there is nothing i mean i guess if they they'd be right to a degree but it would be something that not many people would would would even want to listen out for i think another one that i saw well just go on that that's exactly what i was saying with the comparison between pride and prejudice and um return of the jedi okay is that these are two very different things that are held to two very different standards and so you know how can you compare them against well i mean if someone what was that like what was the comparison if a book tool movie or if a horse you can't complain if a horse was not a card or something like that if you're trying to sell the horse as a cart and people get a horse instead they have you know absolute validity to complain about it i i like that one uh if they were to make an adaptation of mohler that advocated for subjectivity would it not be a bad adaptation of mohler regardless of how good the writing is i agree it would be a poor adaptation of me but it could be very well written see my point my point right there is that that intrinsically affects the the ability like your judgment of the quality of the writing is inherently connected with what it was supposed to fulfill and it's not fulfilling i concede that it affects only has 10 minute videos to i can see that it affects intrinsically the a vast majority of the audience's ability to enjoy it but it doesn't affect the quality of the writing well quality being the the operative word that's one of the elements you're judging the writing on is how effectively it's when we say objectively we're trying to remove that element entirely how much people are enjoying it i'm not sure i'm not sure you can by the very virtue it's called spider-man or mohler or whatever that standard is connected and you can't break through break pass it you have to change the name completely but you agree like say for example finn saying um it's impossible for them to track us through hyperspace and in the next scene saying yes i mop the engine of the hyperspace sorry i just sorry i just saw a chat from my editor os is in chat he's not me guys he has my symbol and i might come up with a university don't believe him but um yeah sorry so uh finn saying um it's impossible for them to track us through hyperspace and then in the next scene saying yes i can take us to the hyperspace trackers um whatever thing to disable it we highlight this is a plot hole because he lacks information he's supposed to have in the previous scene for a dramatic reveal when he's had the information the whole time this also brings up another issue of him not having warned everybody previously since he's aware of it we don't need any feelings we don't need anyone's reactions to identify that as being a flaw you'd agree with that right yeah i agree completely and i don't think you need anyone's feelings either to say that if this is called spider-man it's going to be judged against every other spider-man that's gone before and it's and it's quality to be a spider-man thing because what spider-man is is fairly established objectively um and if it fails at certain beats even in small areas and stuff like that that you can absolutely judge the writing quality as a result because it's called spider-man you can't escape that as soon as it's called spider-man you have linked it to comparison which is going to be a way in which you judge the quality of writing um separate to you know uh consistency um we probably need to highlight the argument of continuity then as well like uh you you bringing in adaptation arguments we would consider them irrelevant because it's a separate continuity but it's still called spider-man it's still called spider-man because he's got the suit and there's the power and again it goes back to the whole how many changes can you make to spaghetti for it not to become spaghetti and you know and i'm an i'm a spaghetti extremist where i can say you can call it whatever you want it will not change the quality of the food in terms of craftsmanship depending on well you know like if it's in a bin and it's all fallen over then it's not really fair but it's a very interesting argument and uh we are repeating ourselves so whether it is something or whether or not it's good two different things and we've we've gotten i think yeah i think we have somebody's not in somebody's not in the watch together who is it who's the naughty man oh that would be me i'm sorry hang on you're a bad person i i think you guys have argued your points very effectively and uh i guess now it'll just well they're gonna i want you there and i didn't do shit go me so the video we're watching is called homecoming is a bad spider-man movie by a man named itop films um now the concept as we've been discussing it the concept alone of it being that could be interpreted as it's inaccurate to the comic book spider-man which is not necessarily something that we will be arguing against it's the evidence that one brings in like if i told you game of thrones is a bad adaptation of lord of the rings because uh this character is inconsistent with knowledge they had in this other scene you might be like what does that have to do with lord of the rings you've just highlighted bad writing that can actually be confirmed or denied like it could be like no they knew that because of this or they didn't know that because of this so he's gonna bring in references and we're gonna decide whether or not they're actually valid references for the supporting his argument is essentially the idea that's what we do with all videos pretty much yeah let's get into it all right exciting time yeah so we're finally watching a movie two hours we did it well yours fun is the chat of blissfully unaware that me friggin chat of how this is probably our fourth conversation on this topic yeah but what they may not understand is that we've got fuel for days for talking about this because it's our fundamental interest and i was trying to hold back certain certain you know wildcards and you guys parried well and stuff like the whole they they're pride and prejudice and um well return to Jedi analogy and the spaghetti analogy i was holding those back for the live stream yeah i period that uh i paired that movie analogy with who never seen it it's fucking it's a great weapon man is everybody ready yeah i think so here we go i'm getting an ad oh you are spider-man home yeah oh no okay it looks like an ad but it's not yeah it's not the same thing spider-man movie now before you start smashing your keyboard calling me a hack chill out grab a joint or a beer a freaking banjo i hate when they're like oh before you do this it's like shut up man yeah you know you let me decide when i do this yeah i will you i preface so much in so many videos you're just trying to get ahead of certain arguments you know that coming yeah i get it i think spider-man movie is a good movie it's fun funny heartfelt and contains one of the strongest villains in the entire mcu hey the acting is pretty solid from pretty much every lead especially tom holland holland perfectly embodies a youthful teenager the writing is entertaining throughout and the pacing is pretty perfect the movie never drags and never moves too fast man this this sounds like it'll be right up your alley uh shad seems to be he's on board with it but yeah it's going good so far i walked out of the theater thoroughly entertained and excited for what's to come but then when i got home something was off one might even say my spidey senses were tingling so i did as any man does when he is confused i turned on my favorite slick spider-man 2 now you're probably saying to yourself you my dear fellow are a ramy fanboy so um this may be confirmed or denied as we go forward but uh there is such a thing and it would probably mean that they're unable to view past or future spider-mans beyond ramy um which isn't necessarily it could be that the ramy film for him has established a higher world record that he's comparing it against that others might not be considering so i wish perhaps we shall see which you are biased indeed i am so take this video as an opinion not a fact and yes it depends if you say factual things my friend we'll see bud we'll see george if i say it's my opinion the two plus two does not equal four i don't know that okay we get yeah you can absolutely still challenge the opinion if it's wrong voices can't you can say things that are just provably false whether you say it's your opinion or not you know what i mean yeah the defense of it is saying don't take it personally if you disagree because that's absolutely true where the defense works is if shad says something like what do you think a far from home and i go i really liked it and then he goes you're wrong i'd be like i'm not wrong what i liked it you can't yeah that exactly it wouldn't even make sense at that point i wouldn't i wouldn't need the defense um spiderman homecoming featured the penguin and it was bad it's like you know it's like whoa okay i'm open to it so take this video as an opinion not a fact and yes video essays can be opinions how many flippant argument essays have you written in school essays can be biased and yes i am biased i believe spider-man two is a cinematic masterclass in character story directing tone and everything in between back to the point i watched spider-man two then read spider-man blue and the old dick cope books and came to the solid conclusion that spider-man homecoming is not a great spider-man flick let alone a good one not a good spider-man flick let alone a good one implying that it's not a good flick in general no no not a good spider-man flick is still comparing it against the well so the sentence was it's not a good spider-man flick let alone a good one wait wait let me hear it again i might be wrong i might be wrong may have hit that wrong and the old dick cope books and came to the solid conclusion that spider-man homecoming is not a great spider-man flick let alone a good one oh so you're saying it's not even a good spider-man flick okay okay it's not great not even good okay so it's still comparing against the standard of what spider-man is yeah all right okay but he's the only spider-man who embodies the youth of a teenager yeah i know he's actually a high school and not a 30 year old yep gotcha he quips like peter parker toby never quipped well you're wrong on that one that's a cute outfit did your husband give it to you but hi top that was the only one it's like the only one don't you don't forget the gobby one you did say gobby this probably there's gotta be more than that right i feel like there's a lot more than that there's a lot more than i i want plenty i want to get a list now guys in chat give us a list of the quips in ramy is there any is there any in the final fight when just just as he arrived does he say anything to green goblin i can't remember i don't think so in the final fight now he pretty much beat the shit out of him at that point i mean like when he arrives at the bridge does he say anything like you're an asshole gobby there's like no in spider-man 2 there's like i the one i remember is um when doc ock comes to the bank and is fighting and he throws a bag of money at him and he catches and throws it back and says here's your change yeah that one's lame all right there's not there's just that was lame it didn't it wasn't funny i don't think it's that i refuse to acknowledge that because of how poor upon that was maybe it was the delivery like i would honestly though with high top tends to he argues the whole um we'll go into this in a little bit later there's a tweet but he argues the whole like no perspective is right or wrong everyone takes what they did so you can so the person saying he doesn't quip and he said well you're not right or that would i'd be like well it's their opinion doesn't it that he didn't quit you know what i mean like obviously he doesn't apply to that standard because no one should it's it's silly to be like nothing is provable because there are things that are provable absolutely we never quit well you're wrong on that one that's a cute outfit did your husband give it to you anyways spider-man homecoming is not a good spider-man movie for three big reasons oh calm yourself calm yourself do we want to do we want to discuss this before we have his input hang on hang on i saw two consequences the suit and what the mcu the mcu well well we'll let him we'll let him argue it but no i'm assuming you guys have heard this one that there's no it's funny sorry go yeah well you go ahead my thing's gonna be like an intro to something i was gonna say i'm mostly on board with him but his reasons i might disagree with yeah when he goes into the specifics uh yeah so this is you know and i'm going so far because like i said i like far from home is nowhere near as bad no what the hell am i saying this nearly as bad as far from home okay far from home is the one that i have the issue with so coming is far more defensive a lot of people are so sad would you make this argument uh spider-man homecoming lacks consequence for any of peter's actions in both the short term and long term no i wouldn't make that argument um okay i'll have to stand in well what i wonder if his argument is going to be the type of consequences based on the type of decisions peter is making is different and therefore not true to the true spider-man that might be more defensible but we'll see okay well you're not yeah okay we'll uh we'll let him because that's two different conversations so i can't we can't account for them all we'll just let him decide the conversation yep in this movie peter makes a plethora of mistakes he indirectly destroys the sandwich shopping queens and no one dies not even the cat he seemingly doesn't feel yes but the robbers get away yeah and he didn't mean to do that but you would say it's convenient that no one died uh there was one guy there the idea that the laser hits his shop in one line we go back to how big the explosion was in the laser shooting and stuff like this movie peter makes a plethora of mistakes he indirectly destroys this but that's that's okay so no one is in there maybe yeah the assumption would be that the because it is his grocery store whatever the guy saves but the assumption would be that he's not in the main area he would be in some kind of bathroom he wouldn't expect him to be in there if he was in the main room he'd be dead because that's probably quite significant and a lot of those places if they live in their shop they live upstairs typically yeah he is downstairs remember because in the scene he's on the like uh what's your emergency uh spider man spotting the avengers that's true that's true oh oh he's he should be dead well i mean if he's in there if he's in that building when that happens he should be dead well you can say it's like convenient that he's lucky but i don't say yeah so you can you can absolutely say it this could be a valid point of criticism no no i was gonna say you can say it's convenient the guy didn't die but it's still not without consequence because the robbers leave they get away because of peter's mistake so he's he has to face consequences still it's been too fast since i watched this film because what like does peter run out to try and see what happened in the explosion like their robbers go because of that he goes over to the shop to see if the cloak's okay and then he pulls them out yeah yeah that's one so um just to stay stay focused yeah the uh is there no consequence for peter having destroyed this building it's like well he has to go and make sure the person's okay because that's entirely tied to his character and by doing that the robbers escape which completely delays his ability to figure out what went into it much later you know up into the party when he gets like i'm not trying to be um some kind of apologist here i'm literally just like that is a consequence right like what are we talking about here it is consequence see see my my point if i was to be annoyed with this which might have validity i generally am annoyed by heroes that are only doing solving problems that they themselves are creating that's a it's generally a bad you know a hero because they're basically a bumbling idiot causing as much harm as they are doing good and so i generally yeah that rubs me the wrong way and and then it's kind of a balance how many mistakes they're making how much good are they doing things like that uh and so this is a problem that peter caused is it well i guess technically it's him and the robber put together the robbers um the robbers had the gun in the first place i mean this is probably the least consequential thing that happened yeah this is the opening of the new one to the deli owner yeah no yes for him yes but i mean in terms of the plot this is if some random superhero he tried to stop the fight on the beep here across the road and blow up my houses or a song and the robbers got away loads of people loads people in chat are arguing that the robbers getting away isn't a consequence like it's not it doesn't count how does it not count are you guys like unaware of so the idea is that peter wants to stop the bad guys he lets the bad guys escape that's um like that's not good the argument could be made that more harm is caused by his attempt to interfere which would be another yeah um i would concede i would concede that the consequences could have been higher yeah but i still think it's invalid to say there are no consequences from this moment we all agree at least agreed on that yeah just gotta make sure i'm trying to determine like so this scene it can be considered good because it serves a larger narrative of him trying to be a better hero um it's not a sin you could cut i don't think i think it's an important scene because it establishes he learns you can define consequences is literally any reaction to any action so he's trying to prevent robbers from stealing money and he prevent he's fails to capture them that's pretty consequential would you guys not agree yeah yeah because the guy doesn't die that the consequence isn't high enough yeah which is bullshit i'm sorry see if i was to criticize this scene i would try and approach from the angle of is it necessary and what is it doing to establish peter's character it is necessary but i don't know but to be effective to be competent to be incompetent so i'd need to judge it according to all those different things but as to saying there's no consequences no that like i wouldn't approach the criticism from this angle if that makes sense it isn't a grave consequence i agree yeah let's continue yeah okay he makes a lot worse one in this movie peter makes a plethora of mistakes he indirectly destroys the sandwich shopping queens and no one dies not even the cat he seemingly doesn't feel guilty that he destroyed this man's livelihood everything's fine he ditches net it loses party in the net um i suppose the visibility to that i can agree with we don't we don't get any scene for him to reconcile that it that has happened to that man no they went to stay remember they went to what sorry um he's walking he's talking to Ned he walks past the shop and he sees the shop is destroyed and there's a little moment there where's like he's he's sort of recognizing that they kind of have a joke at the end of that scene too but yeah there is a scene where you see the shop the day after it got destroyed i don't disagree though that the idea that there's no maybe we could have used it maybe a scene where peter gets to talk to the guy um yeah i think so so i agree with that he destroyed this man's livelihood everything's fine he ditches net it loses party in the net forgives him the next day everything's fine yeah so he knows what's up yeah so i've heard this a lot that and i always ask the question of like so what should net have done like just not be friends with him i'm confused net has a problem that he did it but net understands immediately it's like oh you did it because you were nearly killed and you're trying to help people okay i get it and the consequence is the loss of social capital too yeah peter as a result is now less trusted and less relied upon and many more people and before someone says they're not significant consequences this movie is scaled down entirely it's not about life and death but i mean there's still a death in it but that should highlight how different this movie is the fact there's only one it's a it's a friendly neighborhood scent so the consequence is already well go ahead yeah the counter to it as well is that the fact that um ned was able to you know get over that so quickly is a character building moment for ned the character himself to make him more likable more appealing to establish right and stuff and so there is a logical counter to that so well i mean not to mention ned you mean you've seen ned geek out over the whole fact that he knows who spiderman is and everything like that so it's a good friend and he is a good friend he's stuck by peter the most out of all of his friends in the world why would he suddenly ditch over like something that he even understands is going on so it was highlighted to me that um isn't it significant that the the robbers are still out there with those weapons like there's still a consequence i mean i'm pretty sure we conceded that i was just it is that's pretty bad the horrible weapons the fact they blew up the deli is like oh shit you know you want to get rid of them i don't know um but yeah the consequence here isn't uh this is my problem with the framing so it's like he's uh he's left ned behind and ned's just okay with it no consequence it's like oh yeah that's not the consequence of those scenes actually it's not in relation to ned it's in relation to peter standing socially um and if if the film played out that ned no longer spoke to him and the consequences that um later on in the movie that's how vulture figures out that he's spiderman oh yeah that's actually worth saying so anyone's actually a really significant consequence to that one vulture the the the time he brings he tries to bring spiderman out as a party trick and then fails to turn up is a huge element for why vulture finds out that peter is spiderman yeah which is a heavy consequence i kind of have the i have home coming in in the background over here one thing to notice that spiderman uh doesn't even really fire that laser or anything like that or does anything that particularly makes an accident the goons just cranks the knob and fires at him and so it wasn't really it wasn't entirely spider man's i guess the argument would be that spiderman being there add that scenario run that way so he's technically responsible for whatever the robbers do uh outside of things they would have done if he wasn't there yeah but he framed it in a way that said peter fucked the thing up yeah no it's not as directly a peter's fault i would agree with that right hey guys sorry i just need to go to the toilet i'll be back in a sec no problemo yeah a lot of people are saying that the robbers don't turn back up in the film therefore they can't count as a consequence find that interesting um there's a living breathing world through yeah it's like they are just doing the job of like a larger body so it's not like you know he has a reason to go after these particular ones because they're just like you know the limbs of a large dude i'm tired of this stupid objective is a subjective bullshit i'm sick of not letting people not finish their points and i'm tired of the hypocrisy and high egos damn you sick of these motherfucking snakes as well do we want to continue or wait for shat oh i was gonna wait for shat so he gets to hear the whole thing no worries but yeah um i mean if you don't like the whole objective is a subject i don't know why you'd be subscribed to me it's like my whole thing and uh wait no sorry i just noticed you're not in the same steel frame as me but it's on the steel frame where ned and peter are doing their handshake it's like they're good friends why would what why would i would argue that's very important in it is a highlight of how long to him the connection is and how thorough massive egos with our massive in our other case our egos are a lot of massy try a lot of that debate a lot of people were arguing about pineapple on pizza i found that kind of well i mean i'm saying pineapple on pizza is insane but i think we said all this back in like e-fap like i want to say before e-fap 10 but uh yeah we do pause people before they finish points and if their point changes once we've listened to the whole thing we absolutely concede we were wrong yeah like oops you were making a joke i get it now yeah well it's because it's spider-man it's it's godzilla as well would be the other one yeah it's like um it's the format so uh people often say like you should watch the whole video beforehand so that you can know exactly when to pause and stuff like that and i'm always like oh yeah but you lose the initial reaction thing and um ultimately you don't remember a video intrinsically when you do that anyways it doesn't necessarily solve the problem as long as we account for any sentence uh that fixes a previous one or whatever then that's the goal lose a lot of e-fap if we if we just let it play i mean we would have missed the rhino milking i mean all all kinds of things you would have missed yeah some of the best reaction moments wouldn't exist because we'd all have them uh prepared this dream is very uh this stream is very appropriately called every frame a pause true you usually don't defend bad writing but now you are um any inconsistencies or contrivances that have been brought up we've argued over through and then conceded i don't think we've been that bad on that subject what do you think shad have we been um overly defensive well if um the quality of writing is intrinsically connected to its adaptive value then there is a criticism to be made on the writing then isn't there well just saying from the perspective of the consistency stuff how we how we fared you reckon yeah i think um yeah for homecoming specifically i think uh oh yeah well once this video is done we can jump to far from home and we'll be at past three hours by then this is gonna be a chuggy e-fap yeah bitch is net it loses party and the net forgives him the next day everything's fine he shirks all his responsibilities and then gets detention ditches the tension and then gets away scott free he gets uh several more detentions and he gets close to expelled in the film as the dialogue yeah and the only reason he doesn't get expelled is because he stops being spider-man to focus in on school again yeah and so this is by my account a poor framing of what the film actually has in it to support his argument yeah what do you reckon shad i think it's a weird punishment to expel someone for skipping class because that's kind of giving them what they wanted oh sorry we talked about something else no yeah i agree with you i think that's fair he skipped some detention you don't expel him you're like okay what the fuck's going on um so we do we see the impact of the further detentions and stuff upon him we don't see that it's just nodded to it nodding to can be enough because you know how important is it to the plot for us to see those detentions i thought there were a lot of what there are a lot of instances where you see that he's kind of not paying attention and not doing like earlier in the movie he's watching a video on youtube he's not really paying attention when he's at the cathalon he's not really paying attention and then he skips to cathalon and then like in even in his science class he's working on his web shooters rather than what he meant to be doing i thought it was reinforced throughout the whole movie yeah no well i mean i must shout are you saying like we need to see like a grade report that's really bad sort of thing yeah i don't know i don't know this one i'm a little on the fence about so all right weren't the point in one thing this has been like wrong right wrong sort of right now for high top he sharks all his response wrong right wrong wrong so we'll see how the next right wrong wrong i thought it was it might i'm not keeping school i can't get detention ditches the tension and then gets away scott free everything's fine he endangers the lives of the cathalon team after leaving them at the competition they win and i'll survive everything's fine so okay so wait he by leaving them at the thing he didn't even realize that it was a danger until like well after he like yeah like when it went to the competition there wasn't he wasn't sending him into danger like on purpose he only found out that there was danger long after they had attended interestingly though it is a problem caused by the hero that he now needs to solve and so if you're looking at this from a broader overarching thing as to how effective a hero is he and is constantly needing to save people from stuff ups his making that doesn't come across as a competent you know hero as a result which can be civil war wouldn't have happened if there wasn't that happening to enable it i mean age of ultron is no age of ultron is that age of ultron is the better example civil war not so much well what i mean is age of ultron is bad but like civil war kind of makes it work at least in the consequences of the heroes made the mistake i mean like i appreciate this argument do you want to shelve it for a little bit later the idea of like a um an incompetent hero and how to sort of portray it to stick to high tops ah yes i'm thinking to stick to high tops goal here we're just identifying consequence and sort of discussing it so the idea that um the friends are endangered nearly killed but they're all rescued everything's fine my issue there is he's drawn the event he started describing the events way too late it's like peter's looking into vulture he's focusing hardcore on spider-man at this point at expense of peter park he doesn't even go to the cathalon he's playing with this chatari core he doesn't exactly know how it works and by having ned hold on to it um the consequence of him pursuing all this shit with spider-man is about to kill every one of his friends and so he has to act so my take on the consequence there is already there like he's like good god that's a pretty big consequence his friends are all about to die yeah what is he trying to say he's saying that they didn't die so it's no consequence he saved them so which is a post hoc argument and i don't like it well well yeah maybe is trying to argue that the problems peter is causing are all turning out fine and that if he's causing this many issues he's saying logically something should impact far more negatively on his life as a result of this many stuff ups they did though because when he lost the suit because he made a big mistake well we haven't gotten to the suit yet that could be one that could be one he brings up but in the example he's giving at the moment he could be trying to say that everything is like everything is turning out fine when that could be considered unrealistic um uh you know where it could take away any concern that something horrible could really happen to the protagonist because everything is just working out for him even when it's stuffing up major okay well in in spider-man 2 doc arc fights spider-man on the train and then he destroys the train and then it starts moving right towards the end spider-man saves them everything's fine you see what i mean it's like it's kind of a stupid argument because there is consequences in the scene in the train to me yeah to me that sounds like a what-aboutism and it doesn't invalidate the criticism what i mean is you would explain how in spider-man 2 it's like well there clearly are consequences to that scene like the scene itself is a consequence yeah i mean like the scene itself is the consequence of things that happened before no no yeah but that's not exactly what i'm pointing out if there's a valid point is making it's that with all these problems that is happening and peter parker is causing perhaps is arguing that they are too easily resolved without any um negative or permanent impact on his life and story which then might undermine any investment we have in the problems later on if it's just showing that peter parker always comes out on top how is he coming out on top like in what sense right at the end you mean or well with the examples his give with the the examples he's giving at the moment are there permanent impacts to his life or character from these things that are happening he loses lives and no no no the examples is given so far we are not always yet well i mean we're not through the movie yet though yeah yeah but his giving examples that's that like because if he tries to criticise you know the fact that vultures the father and he loses his and everything's fine well then we can say he's wrong in that instance but no we're looking at the examples is giving thus far and i think he's trying to say that um there's no permanent impact on his life or character as a result of these issues well i mean i'd say that they're important growth experiences for one how like in terms of things that he learns well these all reinforce what he learns by the end of the film about you know the way that he needs to conduct himself so it does have a consequence at least in that sense beyond the ones that have you know already been illustrated before like that the actual consequence in the scene or the consequence later in the film him showing up at dc is what gave away that he was um because remember in the last scene with liz where she's like you disappear like you always do like you didn't dc and then vulture literally says well sham what happened there i bet you're really glad when spider-man showed up and then he says well no i i saw it from the ground it's like well so the consequence of this scene is that vulture finds out he's spider-man and then tries to kill him which would be a permanent consequence right which is a consequence very very valid parry sir this this film is all about cause and effect that's why i find it odd when someone says that okay so everything has a consequence okay so you're yeah you believe yeah the direct consequence of that scene is vulture finding out that's all the indirect consequence that's like the consequence that he don't see coming it's something that comes later when the twist comes and you're like oh shit and all builds up it keeps building up the things that he does and ends up screwing them over at the end good point for this specific one yeah very good point and not to mention um he's using spider-man 2 as a reference just to say okay well this is the reason that you know this is a bad spider-man adaptation and he's using spider-man 2 as the example of what he's going off of so when you come come to the train sequence it seems like there's far less consequences and except for you know getting bonked in the face and taken out at the end but it seems like the consequences of that are i think of the grand scheme of things far less than in homecoming wouldn't you say well the the thing is it's like i use that as an example because i disagree with the idea that you cut out back oh well i was using the train scene as an example because the train seems really good um and like it is a consequence in and of itself the scene happening but then of course if you if you really try to stretch it you could say well nobody died his identity was revealed but nobody's gonna tell anybody so everything's fine you know what i mean it's like it's it's almost as if he's like ignoring that the scene itself is the consequence of things that happened before and just because no one dies doesn't mean that it wasn't important uh yeah so the concept of reducing the the consequences as a whole for example the fight in the airport scene in civil war isn't really have any consequences because nobody died would be a much more expected consequence considering it's every single hero fighting each other that's a whole other argument that me and fringy despise but we'll get that some other century um when you're dealing with a high schooler who's trying to balance his social life with his superhero life um everything is crushed down and uh so the idea that it's like it's not a consequence unless someone dies and i'm not saying that's what everyone here is saying i'm not saying that's what anyone here is saying but the idea alone frustrating because it almost limited nobody's making the death makes consequences um didn't he literally say when exploded the shop owner didn't die i didn't his cat he didn't even die pay attention god damn it um high top dose not subscribers your logical for lucy stop judging him by it noted okay he endangers the lives of the cathalon team after leaving them at the competition they win and all survive everything's fine he ditches liz at homecoming and everything is fine but that was no that was the last straw all right why did he why did he have the gap was he doing some kind of joke or is he actually serious like he was what i what i think he was trying to do is like he was he went in a big detail on a whole lot of the other things that had happened and then there was just that one moment like i ditched her everything's fine you know so i was expecting to make a joke he leaves liz at homecoming gap gap okay that one does have a permanent impact but okay that's what i was expecting i was like yeah yeah that was the thing that was the last straw for her he lost the the woman that he was trying to pursue throughout the film because of that moment there that was it for her oh hang on let's try and break it out because more like you got a better memory of this film is that why she ditched him or is because his would she have stuck with peter if her dad didn't go to jail uh so she says that one line where she says he says i'm so sorry liz and she says you say that a lot what are you sorry for this time or something like that implying that she doesn't take him seriously whatsoever anymore this is is it the second or third time he's ditched her um there's no what i'm trying to say is there's no line where she says i will not date you peter parker but there's definitely an implication of you know she's got absolutely no interest in in him because he keeps just failing over and over again but it's kind of dwarfed by the fact that her dad is in jail i'm not sure i got that like i got the impression that she probably would have stuck with him if she wasn't moving away i don't i don't get that i don't either because he ditched her so many times throughout yeah like she's actually kind of yeah like she's totally justified in her response at that point you know i didn't yeah i didn't see a say like you know you left me alone i was so embarrassed well um interestingly would you not agree that um either way it's a consequence of peter's actions because he's the reason vulture's in jail and thus moving his family out that's true yeah but um i'm curious what that gap was for and i'm let's just see where he goes with this because he's doing these in sections obviously just lives at homecoming and everything is fine the film was sometimes aware of its lack of consequences that's why it seems like this is a play for comedy i was hoping maybe i could yeah so as it stands he's wrong and there's this this tizmic rea in chat that's saying we're taking him out of context consistently um what do you guys just take on his point in that moment if you if he reaffirms the point later on and justifies it as something completely different that wouldn't change what the point just there was would it i'll i'm doing my best to try and keep him in context trying to understand exactly what is that as it stands am i the only one who's offered any defense to some of the things to say even if you guys convinced me against you know my initial assertion i'm doing my best yeah i think he would have an argument if he was phrasing this with a much more fine tooth like sort of the consequences are not to the degree that he thinks should be considering the actions something like that that might be a fair way to put it but the idea that there's no consequences like that's just patently false i would have consequences that's why it seems like this are played up for comedy i was hoping maybe i could rejoin the team no no way you can't just quit on a stroll up and be welcome back by everyone hey welcome back peter yeah so the idea there is that flash is constantly put down trying to achieve and get attention while peter is too intelligent to be dropped and if you're gonna say to me well you'd still have to agree that that's a lack of consequence where there could have been one i'd be like absolutely there's a lot of places where you can place consequences in this film that aren't there's also a lot of places where there are consequences where you didn't have to have them vulture could have found out his identity in different ways yeah and sometimes you get you have multiple options as a writer to choose which path to go down to service what you want in the plot the good example is with his friend what's his name again um ned ned ned being okay with peter ditching him that i actually felt that was a character building moment for ned with him being okay with it which actually service the plot in that regard and so uh yeah there are absolutely different options you can choose it's not a absolute negative thing that you know the character didn't react the way that we thought he should have reacted when it was valid that ned reacted that way and so the way we were seeing um flash react is absolutely valid and it's in line with this character and establishes who he type who he is and there's also establishing certain elements about peter parker's character and also the teacher the teacher's obviously with incompetence but he values peter you know yeah because he's intelligent someone in chat said if he's too intelligent to drop them why did they win so if you've got a stacked team and you can make it even more stacked you'd probably choose to make it even more stacked yeah you'd cut it off the stops to win except for you know cheating like i you know i just figured that if you've got a choice because he replaces flash and flash is shown in this film to not be very intelligent so yeah i think his point in this scene exactly is a more subjective one where he feels they should have been more consequences for his actions and it came off as unsatisfying but yeah my my take is that there are multiple ways you can choose to go in a scene that many can be realistic and you usually go with the one that you feel best serves the plot of the story that you're trying to make and things because like if he wasn't if he wasn't allowed to go under the cathlon how would that have derailed the story you wouldn't have a alibi for going to washington to search for vulture and if he didn't search for vulture he might not have been able to stop him so for the service of the story he needed to go to you know washington and that's the thing i don't think anyone can say that it should have been x or y it's like both of these scenarios would have worked if the teacher said no peter you've you know disappointed several times we're gonna leave you behind and i think it's perfectly in line with this teacher by the way he's very um how would you describe him for me he's not very assertive i'd say he's kind of like he's he's um yeah a little bit weak especially when in far from home you find out that why and about getting snapped so that she could put another guy it's almost like he would make a very unsatisfying protagonist oh probably yeah probably objectively so possibly depending on if his films are depends yeah welcome back by everyone hey welcome back peter flash you're back to first alternate what but being self-aware does not excuse the flawed hand if i take a shit on the spider-man toy you know what we call that we call that a web slinging ass kicking and flush you down the toilet uh very funny you douchebag but the truth is i still clog the fucking toilet i don't think that would clog the toilet i'm trying to understand his analogy here i think i think what i think what he's um i think what he's saying is um okay so i i clog the toilet and then i'm like whoops it's like yeah okay funny but the toilet still clogs yeah that's the point he's trying to make yeah like making a joke out of something dumb doesn't change the fact that it was no it's kind of the same argument i think you know like how yeah like we can nudge nudge this is formulaic and cliche it's like yeah yeah funny but it's still formulaic and cliche and even though you've yeah man my issue is that i don't agree that it's a flaw at the base it's just like a it could have gone either way sort of thing but the truth is i still clog the fucking toilet you see what i'm getting at you could argue that liz leaving midtown is a consequence but the movie makes it abundantly clear that peter really only yeah it's almost like it's a high school crush so this is this is him arguing positive qualities to like somebody so this is him arguing the point then i don't know why he didn't put this earlier but yeah let's listen to this in full so otherwise people are gonna get very upset spider man's a sensitive topic we've we've um listened to points in half across all of e-fap but we can't do it with spider man and i'm so angry and i know that we probably can't do it with godzilla as well we'll be careful if we ever cover a godzilla video gotta listen to him fall you see what i'm getting at you could argue that liz leaving midtown is a consequence but the movie makes it abundantly clear that peter really only likes her because she's pretty and smart he doesn't even know her he knows pretty much nothing about her she's just his first crush which that sounds pretty significant for a high school yeah i mean i don't think high schoolers think way too hard about you know what they're feeling they just feel it and they just gotta jump in i don't know he says he doesn't know anything about her it's like yeah that's why he wants to get to know her exactly he's trying to get like with her to get to know her better right just the fact that she's pretty smart and obviously kind and a nice person that's definitely enough they're like to what be interested in someone like what i don't get yeah she'll show up like what's he supposed to do stock the shit out of her and then get they needed to know each other for longer before she was taken away i think is his point i don't agree that that require is required to represent a consequence yeah nothing about her she's just his first crush which works great in keeping the light high school or tone but listen her relationship to peter carries almost no emotional weight compare the humor yeah i disagree the idea of it having no emotional weight for a teenager who has a crush on a girl who is now left school but he is comparing it to something that he feels had far more emotional weight and therefore the homecoming version is worse in theory but that would be a change of argument i thought that this section was on no consequences not no consequences no significant consequences by comparison to a different story it sounds like he is changing an argument it sounds like he's adding oh yeah yeah yeah um why this is bad and the and it's that there was no emotional weight in their relationship i might concede the second argument but not the first that's all i was saying compare the humorous lack of consequences and homecoming to the humorous abundance of consequences in spider-man 2 everything peter does in spidey 2 in the ramy trilogy in the spectacular spider-man cartoon in the 90s spider-man show from your childhood and that really dope mtv show and in the comics has consequences not everything but i think he's saying he's referring that there's far more and he feels that the consequences are not as large as they should have been in homecoming which is a small stakes story though um isn't he like like it's so the idea of like a consequence that's permanent the end of spider-man ramy spider-man one he chooses not to be with mary jane the second one he ends up with her in the third one is it ambiguous i can't remember isn't it like the third one if i remember it's been a while it was kind of uh they were on good terms but not going out and i expected that was to set up his other relationships with like you know when stacey or betty brand or or black cat even any number of he has a lot of girls he goes through old parka and so you got to put mary jane on the back burner to get to him it's just that the thing is he just keeps framing it in a way that says that homecoming has zero absolutely zero consequences when that's just not true he's going to the other other films saying like there are consequences but it's like well just because somebody just doesn't die all the time doesn't mean the consequences there's a certain implication when he said everything's fine like he said that like four times it's like no no no they're not let's give them a bone and and say what if he's saying that they aren't as large as they should have been and as a result had less emotional impact on your uh i guess reaction to the story i could potentially can see that what it should have though like that's yeah that's a problem well i mean this is the thing if the story does have more emotional impact you generally regard it as a superior i guess um i guess think about um so in the dark night you have you have two scenes that i think are probably a good you know example so you have the scene where the joker has the two boats rigged with explosives and the idea is that you know he wants to convince one group to blow up the other group and it's like that's pretty high stakes there are a thousand you know there are hundreds of people on these boats a lot of civilians i mean and then you got the prisons on the other one and then you have the scene with harby dent that's incredibly intense and it's only really involving three or four people and yet the stakes are really high because of the personal attachment bigger doesn't necessarily mean higher stakes you can have things that have less people involved you know like like less of a consequence on uh a smaller number of people but still i think i think you would agree with the stakes are higher yeah i think he would but that's what i mean it's like because because his reference was like the the relationship he had with was it liz oh right but but it's it's also the other stuff like nobody on the to have to have higher stakes doesn't necessarily mean them to be larger more lives are at risk i like to have a better conflict can simply be there's more moral implications involved with the conflict it resonates deeper with the audience you like the character whose live life is at stake much more and and and things like that and so i do feel that the relationship or at least peter's investment say in mary jane in the ramy films was much greater than you know the relationship peter has with liz and so i think that's valid here um it's i don't really get the impression that the relationship with liz is like the foremost most important thing like it's a part of the story but i'd say the bigger focus is on the trying to you know impress tony you're trying to be an avenger and stuff like that well i don't know like if it is important yeah like the fact that peter has to abandon this girl to save the you know the world not the world but i'll just want to stop vulture yeah yeah to stop vulture that would have had far more impact if the so if more was invested in the relationship and if it was going to really hit him harder and that is you know you need to take more time to establish that relationship between the two and stuff and everything but i think that is a valid enough thing to say that that scene could have been improved upon if the relationship was stronger or your the the emotional impact or resonance from peter's action would have been greater yeah i don't i don't think the film really needed to be any long achieved what it needed to achieve in the time that it had well i don't know like i mean if a film could have been better and you can identify areas where there was room for improvement i think what i mean is i don't think i don't think it could have been i don't think it should have been any longer it like the scene well all of the scenes in the film have a purpose every scene has a purpose because characters keep coming back like um when you see uh it's donald glubbers character he plays on myles morales's uh oh aron aron davis because he even in that scene with the weapons it's like he's in that scene he comes back later sorry i do want to take back what i said before in response to you okay if if you wanted to add something that increased the length of the film that simply would have improved the quality of the film i say sure i go oh there's obviously a limit there's obviously a limit i don't curiosity though even a small increase could we feasibly always increase the stakes and potentially the emotional uh payoff if you will like of a better term it's tricky because to do that you do need to take the time to establish certain things to reach that point like if you want the relationship to be stronger between these two characters you need to have the right story beats and scenes to get you there and so sometimes you do need to try and make a balance as to what's what's better what will have the greater result versus what will take too much time what might bog down the pacing and such and so you just need to try and find the best balance between them all to get the best result possible um and i think that we'll be giving the movie too much credit to say that there's no way in which it could have been improved upon i think most movies you could yeah films can be improved yeah yeah um but to clarify so like we would we would all agree that the stakes of infinity war are higher than that of the avengers in terms of the world scale like just by sheer numbers yeah um but would it be would it not be a form of what aboutism to say avengers would have been improved if the threat was were universe wide or even earth wide as opposed to just new york in that moment even though technically that is worldwide because if they just know maybe i mean my own experience with trying to get uh an audience invested in stakes is to try and create some type of connection with it and um and so you can have people far more emotionally invested in a story where one life is at risk if they really care about the character then the whole world uh and so i guess um civil war is probably a good example of that though because the fight is bigger and it has larger implications on the world because of you know the effect that it has on the accords and all that but the fight between tony cap and bucky is absolutely the more intense fight because of the personal stakes even though it's really one person's life at stake in that battle or two people i guess yeah it's always a matter of yeah it's identify with the character and so to bring it back like i said i felt that everything was scaled down in homecoming and i suppose the argument would be that if they had established liz and pete's relationship in a stronger manner the payoff of having her being taken away from him would have been stronger i wouldn't disagree with that is that a change of consequence though i guess it would be because he'd be he'd be personally more invested in her would that be the argument yeah um yeah i suppose and he is using the point of reference of spider man two which he feels has far more emotional investment i mean he argued almost what's at stake he argued a lot of iterations obviously i haven't got experience enough in all of them to be able to question it but when he said that you know spider man always has consequences in every like obviously not but i think it's trying to say in most instances um when spider man is written well it's usually playing on that theme of power responsibility will he do the right thing versus how it affects his life and stuff and those stories end up being really you know great like just phenomenal um and i i was about to think as well i think there's an argument to be made that throughout the film every time he tries to start up and develop his relationship with liz it is subverted by his interests in being spider man like um the parties his first shot in because they always the establishing the gym where they're like we want to you know if anyone has a shot with liz it's you because like you know he's he's spider man and then it's like his shot to impress her and get to know her and potentially be her boyfriend is ruined by him being spider man in the in the party in the pool bit and then finally with homecoming which is probably the most significant because he's literally her date like that would that's his that's an interest it's an interesting counter that if you're trying to explain why he wasn't able to have that relationship with him it's because of him being spider man that's interesting well i mean that's i figured that was what the what was happening constantly like spider man gets in the way of him being able to do things and then when spider man is saved from him like when tony takes the suit and he's focused in things start going well he gets a talk to liz he secures the date he's doing better in school hanging out with ned you know i mean it's it's an explanation but it doesn't mean that they couldn't have established a closer relationship in spite of the issues he runs into um well i suppose which he is done i suppose that when you think of far from homecoming afterwards mj is somebody that he's got more in common with because she's also a little bit reclusive a bit um you know different um there's you know it's it's clear that uh liz long term is not super important because she is the high school you know the first high school crush um but it's important to him in this movie you know it's yeah as a character she's not very interesting for me oh sure yeah i probably agree she's uh she's fairly you know one dimensional um but uh i guess it's um it's it's about how they allocate time and what what they're trying to focus in on and then it's i guess you can even see it in the um the warehouse scene where um he's talking to karen and she's like oh who's liz it's like oh you know she's great she's uh it doesn't really say that much beyond what was said before she's pretty and smart you know what i mean like he yeah you're right he doesn't know much about her uh so we good to move on yeah yes all right type it right now you have like three seconds three two one one of the fundamental characteristics of peter parker is that he can't catch a break everything goes wrong in his life even if he makes the right choice even if he makes the hard choice his life still sucks that's what's in dear peter parker right right okay so i wouldn't say i would say this is a result of a fundamental characteristic not a fundamental characteristic that you can subvert if it works in the plot um yeah i think there are times in which you can have things go his way and his life could be fine and still be true to the true theme of spider man in my opinion which is a great power comes great for responsibility him being a aspirational heroic figure that those are the core elements of spider man that i feel that you can establish by making a an appeal to previous continuity or not just continuity previous works um so yeah i'm not sure i'm on board with this one that he has to like life always has to suck for him generally that is a common element that makes for great stories i fully agree but i don't think that means you can't have a good spider man story where things start to go his way well i guess um you know it's you're kind of limiting yourself at the end i think in the comics he started his own company at some point like well i don't think i don't think that um what that uh oh yeah i mean i uh yeah that's fine but what i mean is it's uh it's a little bit restrictive to say that he i i prefer your interpretation of it where like him not being able to catch a break is just a consequence of um i guess his principles or his motivations whereas i think saying well he can't catch a break it's like well so i can't do stories where he does catch a break and it's funny he says this because in far from home he's literally on break and he can't catch a break so like so i far from home is a good spider man movie according to high top yeah i think too yeah well yeah i know the other thing too is like aside from the social capital thing i guess the other thing that would make a really good peter parker is the fact that he's a total nerd and that like he's just a little socially awkward because of because he's so freaking smart you know so i think that's you know just kind of just just just kind of adding to his question i suppose and uh i think he's he is definitely like socially awkward in this movie um absolutely i'm totally not the person to ask but my one would have been uh he has to deal with the dichotomy of maintaining spider man and peter parker i thought that was sort of the core yeah that's another that is the core yeah but i guess like when it comes down to it it's like that's that's how he would start out but i don't think it would probably be just a little strange for him to constantly be struggling it with it like well and do his like mid to late 20s you know you would think he'd have figured it out with the beginning of his character as a very strong important part but one of the reasons why i find it's important is because it makes the point in which where he doesn't need to struggle as much between those two things very satisfying like when he finally reveals his identity to mary jane in like i remember ultimate spider man and stuff it's actually a great scene great comic book scene where you know she is on the bed and she cracks up laughing because she doesn't believe him and then and then in the later stories she starts to try and help him out balance that dichotomy and it becomes an active interesting thing where she tries to make excuses for him to his teachers and stuff and he has like someone fighting in his corner now and that enhances the story in a different way but it isn't restricted to having to remain in that that thing i mean he eventually marries mary jane and she certainly knows him and then he has to balance you know taking care of her as his wife while being spider man and stuff yeah that's that's exactly what i mean it's like when when you set a very restrictive rules on what must be done you're kind of limiting ways with which you can experiment with the character and do different things and and explore well he considers this a core element and i'm sure shab would argue that there are core elements you need to maintain uh yeah but this isn't one of them right this is a natural byproduct but you can go against it and not betray what spider man is yeah Parker is that he can't catch a break everything goes wrong in his life even if he makes the right choice even if he makes the hard choice his life still sucks that's what's endearing about peter parker he still chooses to be spider man even if the consequences of being him out with the benefits peter parker is us his entire purpose as a character was to be relatable to the reader a dorky nerdy outcast with a good heart i won't make him the handsomeest guy in the world or the strongest you know a dorky nerdy outcast with a good heart i i wouldn't say that applies to tom holland in the homecoming what do you why i don't know i i think it was but what do you think i said you said it doesn't no i said it does it doesn't oh i thought you said it doesn't i agree with you sorry sorry if i said it doesn't i misspoke i meant to say it okay well this this is part of the reason why i've never really been on board entirely with the it's a bad adaptation i watch him like yes seems like spider man to me and in ways that are important not in all the ways like as in you know accurate to the comics but in ways that are important good heart nice person even though he makes mistakes and um and that he wants to do the right thing i guess it's more of a i don't know that's that's why i sort of was trying to head yeah but i say um i mean that's that we're talking about that later so i won't delve into that too much by the way miss you stan don blud yeah yes rip stanley uh i do like stanley's um philosophy though on suit on spider man and his explanation you know like spider man is the every man he's the uh he's not the the big you know popular handsome he's just a normal guy who's trying to do his best and that's probably that's the reason why spider man is is so liked by him yeah absolutely that can be taken too far because at the same time he is very noble right yeah exactly yes i would say super humanly noble um and stuff and so he has qualities that transcend the average person but because he has things that ground him in the world as well makes him so compelling because you can relate to him and honestly it becomes a very great role model because you see this person who's like you who is there now making such noble decisions makes it made me as a kid want to be like that i want to be that noble i want to be tom holand is that every man that received tony stark except for the suit that he made you're a cutting out man oh yeah no it was um of the average tony uh like tom holand the every man who gets a suit from tony stark or gets everything from tony stark but it's like he had his own suit for six months and then he got his suit taken away and then he still went off to vulture hmm no no like so i get what they they say with this argument here that the fact that he does get a really powerful suit can work against the idea of him kind of struggling and you know going on his own and stuff like that it doesn't subvert it completely that might be where people take it too far you can still have a character who is the every man and deals with regular things still a teenager dealing with crap and being unpopular that doesn't change by the fact he has a really good suit um but it can work against the conflicts he runs into and the struggles he has to deal with because it takes away just one of those hurdles he generally needs to leap over because now he has a good suit so that's kind of i feel where the criticism is coming yeah but there's enough stuff that you see in the movie that shows that he he's pretty savvy like when he made shooters in the lab you see how he does it it's like oh well there's a process there and in civil war you saw how he explained the whole purpose of his little goggles you know to help him focus in and stuff like that there's enough you you see enough of him being injured like and the fact that he hacks into the suit as well you can see enough instances that he knows how to do things and the whole point of the movie is that he doesn't need the suit i mean like i actually remember i like the fact he gets the suit um because with all his skills being a master of seeing i seem i was gonna say seamstress how do you say the male version of seamstress seamstress there you go um that was like that's never been a prominent element of his skill set yet he suddenly had it to make this phenomenal suit and then it never comes up again like that's always been a little yeah like i i mean the reality is like i would highly doubt you know toby maguire would be able to build that suit in his house you know what i mean it's like the the homemade suit in homecoming i is way more believable as a suit that a kid could make at home yeah you know what i mean like it's a cool suit i really like the other criticism the other criticism of the suit is the um the internal computer the thing is though like it does i'm not sure if you pointed this out to me well tell me if you did you can take credit for it if you want um that it serves a narrative purpose where in the comic books peter parker is always thinking to himself like thought bubbles are everywhere and whenever you make a movie you run into that struggle and trying to adapt literature because voicing thought on in movie can be really hard they tried to do it in june and it comes off really weird by having people's you know incorporeal voice do they have like the the breathy sound effect or whatever it's like i wonder what i think you know that's like it can be really jarring in the film in film and stuff and so the the karen you know computer is serving a narrative um uh point narrative purpose in enabling him to voice his thoughts in a more realistic natural way so we get the peter parker thinking to himself element without it being this disembodied voice he's get to speak to someone and and i actually think they that's successful that that works it serves the purpose in achieving that and so i think it's a good argument against the karen uh computer yeah i mean i i think i agree that in a monologue in um in live action film it's it's a lot easier to do an animation i mean i know that has like yeah ages and ages of uh in a monologue but it's because you can hit pause and it's not too distracting words and live action things need to move normally well well yeah like because in the in the cartoon spider-man is not to himself all the time but has anyone here watched the the old june where they're thinking to himself all the time and how weird it comes off i haven't known the old june there's a film called june is it all june oh dune weird pronunciation people like i thought you said the old june june i was picturing like an old lady named june i was like she liked the ducks and my pronunciation is retarded i get it okay guys um june the old june with the in a monologue always happening it's weird it comes off so strange yeah yeah yeah i don't really i don't care too much for the uh inner monologue types especially throughout the whole things like i get sort of why they did it uh in the original uh it's because of the books well i'm sorry i thought i got to still talking about june because june the books are written in a third person omniscient and characters thoughts are being voiced all the time in like because if you're writing in third person limited the narration is always from a single perspective even though it's in third person but with omniscient it's no holds bar and that's one of the classic kind of um examples of a book effectively written in third person omniscient but translating that effectively into film when you have so many thoughts happening amongst so many different characters in a given scene it's really hard to convey those scenes the same way or convey the same information um in a film that was conveyed in the book because of the different format it can be tricky and that's why i opted for it biometric in chat you're thinking of june oh the movie with the pregnant teenager and the old boy first i was just about to take that leave me alone i won't make him the handsomest guy in the world or the strongest i won't make him rich isn't uh isn't spider-man a phenomenally strong in the comics uh we're strong enough to get it he's not as strong as like Thor or anything like but uh he can pick up a car and slow it he like he can stop a train yeah his strength level is is is hot yeah yeah but it's high but it's not like superman yeah it's generally on actually it's a bit higher than captain america um yeah and uh but yeah nowhere near Thor or Hulk like not even close right we'll have money worries i can relate to that because i had money problems in those days yeah so i guess he's trying to highlight here that he's friends with Tony Stark a billionaire therefore he cannot have money woes which is a fundamental issue because spider-man is supposed to um well what do you what do you guys think uh i'd say the money woes is like tied it's not it's not a thing that is it's sort of tied to the other problems right with him just being a normal person it's not really the money problems in themselves it's the normal problems sort of thing well a lot of it has to do with his age too he can't even work it yeah exactly he's too young to have money problems yeah so i i do admit that it takes away one of the points of conflict in the story by here um having you know access to a personal jet that can fly in on a call and then make you a new suit when you need it all right so that that's a pretty darn high-end luxury that he has access to and and as a result it takes away one of the points of conflicts that spider-man has struggled with in many stories which can come across or which were very satisfying and stuff and so because of that you have less to work with narratively to make an effective spider-man story i wouldn't say it means you can't make an effective spider-man story because of that absence yeah it's not fundamental yet it's essential to peter's character somebody said you see what i mean when i'm talking finding like what spider-man is people have different like opinions on it no no see i would say generally his poverty is a result of his fundamental characteristics once again because he spends so much time being spider-man he isn't able to hold down a job and he can't get enough money to pay the bills and stuff and that's the the natural results but you you do not subvert who this character is who spider-man is by having tony start coming in come in and give him money he can still be true to those characteristics it loses a point of conflict that you can explore in the story which i fully admit and and so is something missing in that sense well it doesn't necessarily mean that it will be a inferior spider-man movie as a result if you stay true to what spider-man is and you have a good story it just means it's one of those elements that are generally a result of these characteristics that i guess i think i'll be that's um as it's set up now it's not impossible to do it you can just be in a situation that's also true i'll be like um in a video game uh in the spider-man video game it's like he's worked is that a spoiler he's working with a scientist don't if it's i haven't played the video okay yeah no he's working with a scientist um and he's not i didn't know he was gonna work with a scientist you've ruined the whole thing for me wow he knows we're ending now too stop he's working with um a scientist whose name i won't mention um and it's mentioned many times he could easily take up a job with corp and get paid a lot more and he's like yeah but this is what i want to do you know this is good work that we're doing so i don't really you can still have him have money problems you could just have it be he would turn down office for money you know like he won't he just you know like if stark says here's a big check he's like no i can't accept you know i would need to be logically consistent like yeah stark said i want to give you a million dollars gee i don't wonder what reason would you turn that down oh yeah i'm very helpful i don't exactly yeah yeah well the comic says i can't sorry stark but the thing of it is it's all like i you know i know that he was broke as hell in the other like versions and everything like that but that's because he was kind of like the only one of his kind you know he was a superhero but nobody else was backing him and therefore it's like you know who is gonna hire the fucking superhero but right here we have the avengers who are superheroes they're gonna recognize him and they're gonna want him on another team and that's why they're going to help him out and you know that's why stark's involved and that's why things the way they are it would be really ridiculous for the avengers to be in this world and then for for them to just completely ignore spider-man and for having a broken ass bitch you know um and you you probably it's a thing where it's like if you want spider-man to be in avengers infinity you know like you got it this has to happen that point is good i like you you do have to uh structure the narrative to achieve certain ends and if you want spider-man to be involved in infinity war well having said that though i'm not sure that means one or the other i think they could have it where um tony stark isn't on in his court and that you know the uh avengers don't fully trust spider-man because he's generally like in the public eye they don't know if he's a villain or if he's legit and that has come up in the comic books like if i remember correctly i know purists might really um take issue with me if i'm wrong here but i have a memory of like avengers being reluctant to recruit spider-man because they weren't sure about him they just didn't they you know it happens it's especially a more street level hero thing like we did and there have been a lot of yeah but having said but even when they're reluctant to recruit him when something big hits the fan they're happy with anyone's help and he and spider-man comes along and he's involved in the fight and they're like well we're not sure about you but we're glad you're fighting with us and then afterwards maybe that might change our opinion on recruiting you and stuff and so yeah i think the story could have been done the opposite way without him being helped by um you know iron man would it have been better well they have more to work with in establishing plot conflict and stuff with spider-mans and that is a very satisfying story when his life is just sucking on multiple levels not just a couple because of him being spider-man and seeing him being choosing the right path as you know irrespective of how it's ruining his life is a very noble satisfying narrative so i don't know what's going to come after him though you know it they've really put themselves in a situation where i'd actually be very disappointed if they didn't make that a big point that his real life is just really detrimental and somebody made a great point dead evil needs to be in the next spider-man movie defending him yeah that's that sounds that sounds about right to me i'm not biased at all guys i'm not biased at all for dead evil not one bit the lack of a death of a dead devil who exists in new york where spider-man like is always annoying but they're like i've even heard that they might be scrubbing the netflix marvels from the mcu continuity bringing i think you'll accept that if it means that you get to have him in the mcu right um well he yeah but wouldn't it just be good if if you could have charlie cox as dead evil in the mcu that that seems like the best thing to do but the iron fist and defenders yeah i know i know i know i know they did i mean my view was that all of the shows except for dead evil are like okay to terrible um yeah like well they might use charlie cox they might use him they might i think it would be we could it could be the same thing as a sit and j jonent that's not a spoilix we're talking about far from home as well in the stream so yeah no it's uh it could work it could um i guess the thing is now that that five-year time jump that had to be like cool so i guess dead evil got snapped otherwise this makes things really difficult yeah and uh if they were to say that they're gonna redo dead evil have his own solo movie after like spider-man and well i was gonna say that that would decanonize the show wouldn't it but the show would still exist in my mind and in my mind of course of course i just find that interesting that that means they will be picking and choosing which shows are in canon and not which is interesting um i mean i guess i'm not against them doing that to be honest with you like uh i don't decanonize iron fist i think is what most people say yes all right the thing is is like luke cage was also not very good and uh jessica well actually hold on luke luke cage was bad jessica jones wasn't well that wasn't bad jessica jones was okay to good iron fist was a dumpster fire of epic proportions holy crap does anyone like that show um i watched both seasons for some reason oh he is um i i understand why shad abs he's such an ineffective ineffectual protagonist he lurches from one disaster to the other he's indecisive he can't figure out what his motivation is or what he should be doing this is i don't care if this is a spoiler right so in in iron fist the the whole thing is he had to go to kanlan he trained and then he fought a dragon and when he killed the dragon and he got the iron fist so he is worthy of the iron fist by virtue of the fact that he has it he is worthy of it um but he decides in season two like oh actually um i'm not worthy of this i'm gonna give it to my girlfriend and then she gets the iron fist from him yeah it's um and i know that in luke cage it's another issue of like fudged this is why dead ever works so much better he's got a very clearly defined motivations and the conflict is um understandable uh conveyed and repeated many times throughout the films uh not the films the the the movies where it's yeah it's also the pacing and plot structure a lot like i don't know oh i don't know who uh took a hold of um iron fist but how many episodes does he just spend in a mental asylum doing oh oh yeah oh actually i find this funny this topic because dead evil for me is my my favorite character i wonder how i would react to a dead evil movie where he's not blind he's not a ninja like a dead evil way he's dressed like a frog for this reasons he's dressed like a frog he can see and he's not a lawyer he's um he's a cop maybe he's a noose you know and he he uh i don't know he's in love with foggy you know foggy is uh and i'm just like hot the truth the true test of friggy's principles it probably would lay the test yeah it would be a real test anyway let's kick on yeah we got a video the frog devil frog fist frog devil the strongest i won't make him rich he'll have money worries i can relate to that because i had money problems in those days i said he won't be that popular i mean it's not easy for him to get a girl he has to worry about getting dates and i yeah that seems unfair what about he gets married jane in uh in the in the sam ramy film as she denies married jane she lives she lives right next door to the guy too yeah he turns her down at the end of spider man one yeah this is a strange argument let's be a little more generous he gets plenty of he he goes through a lot of he comes in the comics i mean look at fucking black cat look at her and he gets her i mean friggy are you objectifying black cat i like black cat a lot actually i uh i she's more than the flesh sir so but he's obviously playing this trying to establish that these are a fundamental characteristics of peter parker but i think it's pretty clear that these are the results of his fundamental characteristics um and so yeah i've already mentioned my argument there but be gone thought oh yeah yeah just you know he doesn't deny her in the second movie obviously i was just saying the first time yep it's not easy for him to get a girl he has to worry about getting dates and i figured that most of the kids or the teenagers or the young adults who read those stories would be able to relate to that because nope life isn't easy for anybody really love this is great if you ditched your friends with implication being that life is pretty easy for peter in homecoming question mark yeah would that be a fair interpretation of what he just said he's still dealing with many issues that regular people do absent you know one or two but that doesn't undermine what spider-man is and he was playing the clip that he was using when he said everything's fine so it's like you know like i said i think it's a fair interpretation to say hi top is saying that he's not facing enough of enough issues in his life in homecoming and i would argue that he's facing quite a few ones and some of them very significant yep especially for a 15 year that poor kid anybody really love this is great if you ditched your friends would there be no consequences if you indirectly led the destruction of a corner yeah so uh let's say for example fringy was like i really want to meet up with you in london um and then i agree to go with him i don't turn up and i tell him yeah uh someone was trying to kill me i think fringy would be like jesus christ you okay like no you should but but what if you couldn't tell him that because to protect his own life oh well we have to do this in context he does tell net that yeah yeah but he's if i did if i couldn't tell fringy that i would make up a good lie yeah he was showing everyone there so i think he's referring to the what was it the spelling bee oh the decathlon the decathlon yeah that um they forgive him for ditching him there and there i think it was a party wasn't it where um he because he's like oh it's not cool that you left me here and then so no let's break that down a bit like if they really felt they needed him to win right and he's not there i would and if i had a lot invested in that competition i would be rightly ticked off that is not there and then if we won in spite of him it is a natural response to expect that well we don't really need him and uh would there be a reluctance to let him join in the and be still a part of their study group i can agree with that it'd been cool if we had a bit of like an awkward thing having for him to having to get back into the team yeah sorry this is this is valid daddy yeah this is a valid part i thought well let me go back i could have sworn i thought he was referring to to them separately and then to ned separately but if he's referring to them as a whole then fair enough nope life isn't easy for anybody really this is great if you ditched your friends would there be no consequences if you indirectly led to the destruction of a corner store would there be no consequences hopefully the answer is of course there would be consequences yadik yeah so in fairness he wasn't specifically referencing the ned at the party one he did reference it earlier though yeah um and did we agree that if that guy was in that shop he should have died um i mean people have survived explosions like with that it like he should be dead well it's likely that he would be dead possibly if you had asked me if you'd ask me how to say he'd be dead yeah it's improbable but not really impossible but the way he was standing up it does kind of make it suspect like he didn't just get sawn right like if he i can i can totally i i can totally by the cat being alive the cat was like if he ducked the second the laser started to approach his like he was like oh fuck i'm ducked like yeah i guess he could survive it but there was fire everywhere and there was engulfed in flame at the oh yeah yeah i'm talking at least like you know he has like a counter right like so if he's behind that ducking maybe because he comes out with like all subtle over him this was not like fire didn't hit him yeah it would have been nice to at least see him duck and everything would be yeah i think he should be dead that's a weird conclusion but yes i think he should be dead sir is of course there would be consequences because consequences are real consequences are what ground the spectacular nature of spider-man consequences are what make us believe in the man aspect of spider-man all that being said it is important to acknowledge that peter does indeed face one real big consequence when he loses the suit by trying to do the right thing see i'm interested in how he defines the big and small of consequences because the biggest one i mo is having his true identity revealed to vulture sorry we're we're seeing the scene and i think we should appreciate the fact that that boat is still floating why did he he said that spider-man gets the suit taken away for doing the right thing but he was trying to do the right yeah he was but he he did it the wrong way because the fbi were there it was being taken care of and he just was like he just decided to do it anyway even though tony said that he was looking into it so sorry just like to try and break this down a bit with what he learned at the end of this movie doesn't that reinforce his actions here that he should have tried even though he failed because well the thing is kind of the point of the film in in our homecoming it's like he has to act because nobody knows what's like it's it's presented right in front of him you know he's about to do it and you need to stop him as opposed to this one where tony's like yeah no we're looking into it we're gonna be on to it so you know stay out of it and then he just goes anyway like in the defense of the people who criticize this that was a flippant kind of it came off as just brushing him off like and so yeah yeah it's fair that peter thought oh i think i think peter is completely justified in thinking this was the the right thing to do yes but um there's other things to consider i suppose other other perspectives and um and then you find out it's less it's still important it's less about what he did and more about why he was doing it which was i want to be an avenger i want to be an iron man i want to be like you yeah good point yeah aspect of spider that that kind of uh goal is a subversion and i would say a lesser worser interpretation the idea of spider-man character yeah but the idea in the story is that he is misguided for behaving this way yeah the film condemns him for that attitude yeah like the film wants him to want to be spider-man and that's where he's at at the end yeah but people's criticism is that that should already be established as spider-man like that's generally taken you know sorted out in the first act of any spider-man story and then we get to see well you could say this is the first act of a three act spider-man trilogy well see like this is where my criticism comes in because it came home more fully and far from home that um he's still going through an origin story to establish who he is and that annoys me because no it's um that i don't really i'm not sure what says an origin story but more so like the stories that lead up to him being in the position where he is more recognizable as spider-man i don't know if i'd call that an origin story though it's just like his first couple seasons or something like that you know what i mean but see he's still making new mistakes and especially in far from home and uh we'll we'll definitely do it don't worry again it works against him as um a effective hero we might actually depending on the availability of everybody we're probably gonna have to split this into two episodes because i can't all that being said it is important to acknowledge that peter does indeed face one real big consequence when he loses the suit by trying to do the right thing which leads to me so like having vulture find out he's peter thanks to his showboating a spider-man and having his entire family threatened i would consider that probably a bigger consequence than losing the suit sorry what was the bigger consequence again so i would personally state that the bigger consequence than this uh losing the suit was having vulture find out that he is spider-man thanks to his showboating a spider-man or at least the intention to do that and it resulting in vulture threatening all the people that he loves but hang on did vulture find out he was spider-man from this scene no no he found out from the other scenes that we yeah so then i guess he's talking about the consequence of this scene oh i thought he was talking about as a whole in the film i think what he's saying is he the main consequence is him losing the suit because of their scene here yeah no and i'm saying the the main consequence in the movie rather i thought i thought he was positing that losing the suit is the biggest consequence in the film yeah he is but but let's break down that so you like you think vulture would not have found out who spider-man was if he was trying to be spider-man without the intention to try to be an avenger if he never used spider-man to try and press people i don't know what vulture would have based it on entirely because a lot of the connective dots from liz are about how he came to a house because he's friends with spider-man he's going to show him but then he mysteriously disappeared like if he never went to that party when did he say that well what happened in the scene right when they're in the car like i didn't watch the car ride again so no oh yeah that is a good scene to have re-watched yes yeah because that's a really good scene it is a great scene great lighting great cinematography great acting but yeah no there's a at the beginning um he said she said something like oh the stark internship and then vulture's like oh wow it's only stark and then and then he says oh well i thought it was i i quit it because it was boring and then liz says but you got to hang out with spider-man to which you know um vulture's like oh shit really what's he like and then he starts and then he goes like i've heard your voice before right like we know each other it's sort of where it goes from there okay because all those things there i feel would could have played out just the same without peter trying to be an avenger like if he was just being true spider-man to who spider-man was and everything vulture still could have found out who he was oh i agree that it's still possible but i'm saying that what happens in the film if you follow the events then it's it's telling us that as a direct result of him having to try and reach that to gain more social capital while also showboating a spider-man has cost him hugely i assume it informs his decision to go after vulture is the fact that vulture said like you get involved in my business i'll kill everyone you love it's just like jesus i'm not sure about the um the social capital having like i do like a very defined kind of irrefutable consequence or negative consequence in the movie that would have played out differently if he wasn't trying to get the card i think do you remember the scene where um they're in the gym and they're doing liz says something like oh you know spider-man's really cool and then ned yells out peter knows spider-man that's the reason why she mentioned spider because he's like i can try and get her at the i can try and get him a party that's a good thing but was that doing this oh yeah but in fairness yes peter didn't want ned to do that he didn't want to use but he banks on it played along with it though yeah he doesn't he doesn't deny it to the party all he had to do in that scenario would go is go and that's just screwing around yeah okay good point but instead he's like yeah i know spider-man i can bring him over and she's like really he's like yep okay good well parried trapped and then yes and then later on i think it was after she says that he knows spider-man that vulture starts thinking like you sound familiar you know what i mean like it gets him thinking it gets his mind racing he wouldn't have figured if they didn't bring that up yeah i would say the biggest piece of evidence is saying you're really close with spider-man it's like he is i love that car ride is so good it's great it's important to acknowledge that peter does indeed face one real big consequence when he loses the suit by trying to do the right thing which leads me to the second big reason why homecoming is a bad spider-man movie the suit hey remember that billionaire superhero that reluctantly takes on high school proj the high school proj is gifted with this really dope high-tech suit the suit has a bunch of cool features including a tracker and it said that a paranoid billionaire hero can keep an eye on the new wise cracking hero the protagonist dilemmas to become his own hero instead of living up to the mantle of the original yeah me too spider-man is i mean i think there's more than one way to tell that story yeah like i've already shared my thoughts on the whole suit thing um and to me it actually answers a slight you know issue pot hole already um and i don't think it undermines the core of what the spider-man character is um so yeah i'm i'm not as on board with the whole suit criticism i guess um is this more the mentor thing as well i don't know it's it because he's kind of conflated them he says he's talking about the suit but he's mainly talking about similarities between batman beyond and well in terms of the mentor muti pro thing i guess we'll have to see how he develops this i was just gonna say i'm not saying he's saying this but does it make the film any worse that it shares a lot of similarities with batman beyond well batman beyond is a good show so it is a good show that like the comparison could actually be used to try and establish that it's an improve so i don't know we'll see uh all right first to become his own hero instead of living up to the mantle of the original yeah me too spider-man is not batman beyond spider-man should not have an ai that he can talk to yes i do understand okay so first of all it's a false equivalence by saying spider-man has a suit he is then equivalent to batman beyond no there are many differences still and i've already even talked about the reason why i feel the the computer having someone to talk to is a very useful narrative tool um to get a very spider-man-esque thing that exists in the comics into the into the movie so we're supposed to be arguing for him well i'm not like i'm sorry i'm kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding this isn't me frigging it's supposed to be like all right yeah we agree spider-man should not have an ai that he can talk to yes i do understand the point of the ai is so that peter can talk to someone to give away his expositional thoughts almost like the thought bubbles in comics but there are so many better ways to give peter introspective moments there are better ways to do it okay i want to know the better ways because i'm fully on board with it i want to hear him though i want him to tell me the better ways all right let's hope he does it there are ways to give peter introspective moments like this i tell this that i'm spider-man who is this who's this she's she's the best she's awesome yeah i just i really want to tell her but it's kind of weird you know i'm spider-man what's weird about that what if she's expecting someone like tony star perhaps make him have a heart to heart moment with net or how about giving him some form of interaction with michelle i mean so to have him discuss it with characters instead no he's basically saying convert all his inner monologue into dialogue and no that's so it's no longer in a monologue it's dialogue okay not only it not only was a chance for him to get all expositionary but it was also to come to grips with his suit functions as well true yeah i mean i'm not saying you can't convert a measure of internal monologue into dialogue but but by the nature of that conversion you change the structure and what it's supposed to achieve or what it could achieve because with his inner thoughts usually he's battling himself or is going through things and as soon as you change that to dialogue if you're gonna do it honestly you're gonna impose the other person's opinion personality into that thought process and it's not the same it's it's a modern you've you've upset a lot of people in chat we've got it's still dialogue when you speak it to an ai yeah and that's the thing too it's all like why why is it a problem that he's talking to an ai again is it just well i was just gonna highlight quickly that uh the ai is more person less than a real character there are things that you say you would say to an ai that can have basic responses that you won't say to a person is kind of the point right exactly and there's very little like greater impact the ai could have on the greater world unless someone like hijacker or anything then a character can like the idea of the inner monologue is their security because you're talking to yourself and you have security exactly and it also means you peter parker with his inner monologue can talk about anything that peter parker knows about like being spider-man you can't really talk about too like well not with mj with ned maybe ned knows who he is but what if he wants to think about how ned is really annoying him can't talk about that with ned but maybe it's still i think there are limitations in trying to convert it all to dialogue and the limit and sorry the issues that you have in talking with the character is lessened by talking to the ai patrified recommends what about having him talk to the dog or a cat from the deli the dog or cat doesn't go with him wherever he's going not to mention that the the ai is able to respond but while maintaining the fact that it's still him alone if you know what i mean yes i guess uh if they wanted to go very stylized they could have done it like game stylized as um text bubbles like from a comic it'd be a bit jarring though that's the thing yeah first to come out of nowhere like that yeah just suddenly mcu yeah well yeah it'd be like in the in our spider-verse yeah but i guess it works better there because it's animated i don't know about you guys but i want karen to get an artificial i android body and become a love interest for peter no imagine how disappointed she be when she sees me well if i were her i wouldn't be disappointed she's so understanding gosh she's a very friendly ai i i would obviously now i'm arguing against my uh yes it's a person i love her so much i do like it sir perhaps make him have a heart to heart moment with net or how about giving him some form of interaction with michelle i mean mj instead of making her a one note character she knows what it's like to be an outcast maybe have peter talk to michelle about his feelings for liz completely unaware of the fact that she's clearly into him that's peter parker esk there's so many better ways to give your protagonist an introspective moment without taking away what makes the protagonist so hang on clearly into him i think you could only say that from you know hindsight and third party like if you if i was peter and i got all this crap from mj that he got in you know homecoming i wouldn't think she's into me i think she's a jerk i don't think the audience should necessarily think she's into him from the homecoming yeah there's there's pieces of evidence but they only get contextualized in far from home as evidence if you know what i mean like oh she's she's kind of looking at him a lot you'd be like you could look at him for a lot of reasons which is highlighted by far from home actually uh-huh so um yeah um but you know could it be good that i just like that's an alternate story i guess because like she's a very um she's a very she she occupies very little of the screen uh mj she's a very thin tertiary character in homecoming so the ideally be like well when you write it so he has discussions with her i don't know i don't necessarily like that because even something small doesn't uh mean that it's not bad or it's easier to not my argument currently yeah but my current argument is that he's suggesting you make these changes and i'm saying like you're taking a character that's barely anything and you're going to change her into a secondary to the very least which is going to change the format of the movie to a degree um yeah um that could that could i could improve it i guess that improve it i guess the idea is that it's meant to be a misdirection like if you if you would go into the movie blind you'd be like who who is this you know why i feel they misdirected everyone if they yeah it was pretty it was pretty obvious you know if anyone looked at the casting things that she was cast as mj and then they know that this is a replace of mary jane for the people who didn't do that it was a far more subtle insert to replace the redheaded character see i don't i i honestly like i you could have just called a mary jane and i i don't think i would have really cared actually because it is kind of one of those things where i'm like uh it's meant to be mary jane though isn't it yeah but see i don't know like that you as soon as you make a connection like that you are creating a story to be judged against just like with spiderman being called spiderman as soon as and so i actually think they were a bit smart to change her name but i don't think it's it's that's just literally because by calling her mj she is mary jane yeah i was gonna say like there's not going to be mary jane and then the mcu because you already have mj if they did i would actually be happy about that oh would you yeah click in the mary jane they're like yeah and you know this is the thing right i actually like because comic book curious and everything and people might say i'm right for this i say shut up let me get my point across is that if they actually if they actually kept the character the same right mj character the same right and cast a actor that matched the original character more more faithfully a redheaded right and kept the character the same but called a mary jane i would actually call that an improvement upon what is actually in um homecoming and this is an interesting um comparison to what we were saying before like if you if the if nothing changes in the movie except the title of the character or something like that how can that improve it well it's my point of reference because of what's my counter my counter would be uh you'll improve the experience for people who are biased towards a character that exists in an alternate piece of media but objectively speaking the writing hasn't changed but i would say that improvement is intrinsically tied to the ability to judge the the quality of it based on how effectively it is how accurately is it is an adaptation yeah so an adaptation argument i agree again it's going back to the argument i feel the adaptive value of something is inseparable from the quality of it um you can judge writing in one category you can judge you know special effects in one category but if you're taking that as the whole is this good or bad the adaptive quality is always going to have an impact on the judgment of it but cgi or shots or acting none of these things would be relevant to a conversation about how good the you know continuities writing is yeah but i'm saying if you're actually trying to objectively judge the quality of something as a whole not the quality of its component parts you need to have a look at the um the cgi you need to have a look at the adaptive i think um my my view on that is stuff like cinematography sound design editing uh visual effects uh like your objective quality your your objective um assessments of like film what's eb whereas you change it for book for a book you'd be doing things like pros or pros um yeah exactly and for a comic it'd be so i i think it varies but the the baseline the fundamental across all stories is the the plot and the and like plot progression characters because that's a consistent in all media it doesn't it doesn't discount the quality i don't i don't think it discounts i don't think it discounts either i i think i agree with you oh wonderful oh no i like i said like some of the some of the arguments have been more just trying to i guess figure out where i stand on it as well that's the value of discussion there you go it's oh for clarification you know molla do you apply the same standard for historical films you could have an inaccurate historical film that's well written because the story is well written but it could be absolutely interesting because like battlefield five we all remember that game i often forget is it um i greatly dislike that historically accurate um and i guess that would be uh discussions about immersion like it's probably difficult sure yeah uh the problems arise with like inglorious bastards which is an awesome film but it's not accurate at all um i guess that's partly tethered to tone what kind of tone you're going for because battlefield five was advertisers like this is gritty you know this is a gritty or well no they avoided authentic they used to call battlefield authentic but then they avoided yeah see that would be a lie at that what did they say they had a word for it they said um there was some marketing word for that i can't remember it wasn't authentic though um because again that would be a lie um woke wow that you can't say that wow shad oh it's oh sorry this is a woke podcast sir i think my favorite thing about the battlefield five things like oh you care about battlefield it's never been really like cool so if battlefield four had laser guns and you wrote on tyrannosaurus rexes and like like oh yeah that's fine because it's a video game you can do whatever you want yeah like i think it ultimately comes down on to what the film is supposed to be there is like by how you define it how what the film is it creates like inescapable standards in which the movie or whatever is going to be compared against would you start like genre definitions for that so even that sometimes yeah like but at historical adaptations like that's a big one where you get a standard that you cannot you separate when you're doing quality i think um i think what i think of there is you know a director would say well this is a romance or it's like well that there literally is no love plot in this story at all it was like well i say it's a romance so it is it's like not that point we have definitions for what we're talking about and it just isn't that anymore something like that and so i guess going back to the point yeah i actually feel it would have made the film better even objectively if they could have kept the character the same but just you know cast the character they actress right to be more true to the source material oh apparently they did say it was authentic what the hell yeah running around with prosthetic limbs and cricket bats okay well if i remember the quote correctly he said how could i turn to my daughter and tell her that women weren't involved or something like that uh uh just bullshit i'm glad you brought up the katana have you i'm insulted they gave exactly that mad jack church gave someone a katana if they want to be authentic yeah there was swords in world war two all right yeah i mean like like mad jack said um any soldier who goes into battle without his sword is improperly dressed he is my hero he is my hero i just love the idea that he went into battle charging the enemy line with a sword it can save your life let's be honest is my spirit animal all right let's keep going yeah liz completely unaware of the fact that she's clearly into him that's peter parker esk there's so many better ways to give your protagonist an introspective moment without taking away what makes the protagonist the protagonist but tell me hang on hang on hang on so he's saying that giving him the suit or the the ai takes makes takes away what makes him the protagonist is that just just just having introspective moments with the robot suit take away elements of his protagonist if that's a weird no not really no i disagree with that that doesn't make sense all right i mean he isn't really qualified it's a problem like i think you might be saying it doesn't he like is trying to say that um he defines peter parker as someone who is always poor and struggling with things and by him having the suit in the ai makes him not the true protagonist version of spider man as he sees it and i would contest that definition of what spider man is um and for reasons i've already gone through here ways to give your protagonist an introspective moment without taking away what makes the protagonist the protagonist but tell me he loses the suit at the end of the second act and goes back to basic spider man stuff yeah exactly as soon as you lose the suit this movie becomes a pretty good spider man flick the if this be my destiny moment you can't set that up without the stuff that you have well you could do it he is contradicting his statement at the beginning there um yeah he said it was good and now he said it wasn't great not even good um and then he is conceding that there's a part in here that is a good spider man is he suggesting that this scene may be good but it doesn't make the film good perhaps perhaps that's what he's saying i would assume that's how it slots in the if this be my destiny moment is my favorite spider man moment since well no no this i also thoroughly enjoy the fact that peter turns down tony stark's offer realizes that he can do better and needs to go that was that was set up by the uh the whole first two acts that again you're cutting out a lot it was set up by the first two acts of the movie him turning down the suit yeah the what makes it a meaningful decision is the is the first two acts is what i would argue the fact that he believes that that's what he wants and then realizes it's not through his own growth so like what i guess what i'm assuming what freanie's trying to say and what i would say is like being like i like that part but not the other parts it's like the other parts make that part yep so offer realizes that he can do better and needs to grow all on his own that's all well and good but he gets the suit back in an infinity war gets an even nicer suit and joins the avengers which leads me to the next one since then but it's but it's it's the minutia matters um the motivation behind it like i want to be an avenger why i want to be an avenger well that's that's not you know you're supposed to be protecting people it doesn't matter if you're called an avenger or not and then in infinity war he's provided the label after he's already committed to actions that would identify him as an avenger well he doesn't he doesn't care if he is an avenger do you understand what i'm saying there's even more fundamental than that if he didn't have the suit in infinity war he would have died true the suit is to protect him from space like so the suit actually becomes fairly essential to that part now could you avoid it that he just got inside the spaceship before into space yeah okay well i mean that's a bit of a stretch for a kid who's never seen a space well i'm sure there's a fuck there somewhere in finnish he does get inside the ship because a flap is open so yeah well not to mention it's not like he had to pilot the damn thing but i guess my point is i don't think it detracts from the story of infinity war especially that by the fact he has a more fancy suit um in in certain elements it could be considered enhanced that enhanced it because he can do some pretty cool stuff with it and infinity war isn't a story about spider-man struggling with being poor and everything like that in fact that's completely separate to what happens in infinity war i do wanna highlight he does get the suit back at the end of the film yes but the third act is proof that he doesn't need it it's just like in the same way that i guess you would argue that cap his fundamentals attested whether or not he has the serum he's a good-hearted hero same for tony to a degree personally i feel it does create a larger inconsistency in the mcu uh as to why i you know uh tony stark doesn't give all the avengers some type of suit to benefit them in whatever capacity yeah like why doesn't like when they have an iron lady exactly she would she would do great with that i like even if it wasn't a full iron man one but it helped out with her espionage i agree he doesn't have goods you know stealth things everything cap could have been done really well with the suit yeah i think that's more than a shield though what didn't he provide him with the shield though yeah but that's kind of why i that's actually why i find it to be a problem if it was all or nothing as in tony doesn't give anyone any tech they do what they do and he tries to help them where he can because he doesn't want to provide any technology outward of himself as a part of his character i'd be like okay but he clearly does give them all upgrades based on their abilities like he gives hawkeye like you know better gear to shoot arrows and it's kind of like okay so why not just like give him armor to like yeah yeah and you might be like well he doesn't know how to use the iron man suit it's like maybe train them they're really good suits i would say it's pretty intuitive based on and then you'd be like well it'll take away what makes iron man iron man in this universe several is right with them like yeah that's true but you know in in in the universe you're not thinking like oh man i'm so unique you're thinking like yeah so we got big alien invasion practically i mean when you have Thor on the team and then you're like black widow she's got pistols and little zappy things you're like maybe we should give her some gear or just tell her to sit on the bench because like holy shit and iron man three establishes that he's certainly not you know um running shy on resources to know some suits and so it wasn't it wouldn't have been difficult so that's a that's an annoying inconsistency that's now established because of this that would be my criticism for it you think black widow would be just a little irritated using little baby glocks and feel the thing is i don't really consider it a homecoming issue i think it's been an issue when you even came out well you cut out again there for you yeah damn i i he's right well i i i still got what he said though he's right is a consistent issue of what you could call will building slash continuity with the mcu as a whole there's especially with Wakanda being introduced now everything gets really it isn't me this is like how does if Wakanda is sharing the the tech holy crap what's gonna happen in future for like i don't know i guess we'll have to see that but does that explain where iron man got the nano tech for his upgrade in oh maybe i'm referring to just everybody getting fundamentally affected like is black panther gonna mass produce those necklaces the next time you know something happens i don't know it'll be useful he's willing to give cap america you know weird vibranium shields that are different but he's certainly willing to pass out some tools so yeah why doesn't he go all the way yeah so i wouldn't say that it it's like i guess high tops like oh so why is he giving peter stuff he won't give anyone else stuff and it's like well he does give people other stuff he's not giving them as good a stuff as him so the problem is with almost the other films rather than this one i think it's kind of the same as you know how far from home has it stuff with um the snap and it's like you almost can't blame him because endgame set up rules that they had to follow and they're kind of deficient broken rules right everybody comes back where they are so if you're in a plane you spawn in mid air and fall t