I just sat and rocked in a rocking chair on the porch and read books, and that's all I did all summer. And when I turned 13, my mother said I had to get a job. Actually, I think she was very wise to do that. So I got a job. But then she also decided after my play, this musical was done, that she went to the locals, what is it called, basically amateur adult theater group. But they had community theater, yes. But they had a beautiful 50-seat theater with lights, and she taught them into letting us put on my play there. And originally, I directed it even though I was 14, maybe 15. It's been an unfortunate thing. But then my uncle, who had theater experience, came back to town. And so he directed the second half of it. But in any case, I cast myself in the supporting role of the, anyways, the supporting role. And I must say, I loved the supporting role because he had one scene, excuse me, one song, introducing it to me, one song. And I had a lot of time offstage, which it let me enjoy the whole experience. So I didn't have that anyway. I'm sorry if I keep going this way. It's too long of a version. But anyway, I was in my place in high school. Then in college, I didn't do any of my well-nominated comedic names in there. But then I went into the pression, and I kept auditioning for plays and not getting in them. And so then when I got in as a playwright to Yale School of Drama, I thought, well, surely I will not do any acting there because there are actors here who are planning to do it professionally, and I couldn't even get cast in college. So then weirdly, because of the Yale cabaret, I ended up being in all sorts of plays because the actors were so busy. They needed as many non-acting major people to be in the cabaret. So I ended up doing that. And I loved actually being in a place that I didn't write and it gave me a lot of experience in terms of a acting and knowing what actors needed from the playwright. Because sometimes we'd be in a play that I didn't write in, and we would find the same part.  And then weird, I was the only playwright who asked to take the singing class with the actors. And so I did that, and Sigourney and I, but it was in my class with me. And we put on a show at the cabaret at the end of the year where we did singing. And Sigourney and I did a number together that was funny. And a few years later, we ended up doing a cabaret show together in the room because of that. Well, in any case, because I was in this cabaret, Robert Brewstein had decided to do this co-authored show called The Idiot's Caramazole, and Aleosha the Monk. It was, well, to about a big name, Meryl Streep as a student was playing Constance Dornette, who was the main character. And she was the 80-year-old crazy translator. And she was supposedly translating The Brother's Caramazole, but she was mixing it up with Chekhov, and Long's Journey into Night. And Aleosha in this version, oh, and also Anayas Nin was in it, who was an obsession of my co-author, Albert Inarato. I didn't even know who Anayas Nin was. But Anayas Nin became obsessed with Aleosha the Monk, who's actually from The Brother's Caramazole. And she turned him into a pop star. So I ended up being cast in the actual production as the pop star, Aleosha, who got to sing the rock song Everything's Permitted, which is something that Ivan Caramazole talks about from The Brother's Caramazole.  [?]. ?] I was not, I replaced, when the actor in the actors, I was good casting the actor's nightmare, But we didn't think it was a great idea for me to be in Sister Mary somehow. It was just too, I don't know, sort of the authorship to be in that play. And it wasn't a me character, but the main act, after the play had been running for about a year, the main actor took a two week vacation, and I got to play the actor, and the actor's name there, and it was wonderful fun. And then I just want to say that one thing I'll show you, that a year later, or six months later, Nancy Marchand was now playing Sister Mary. And a few of the other actors were now new, because the other ones had left after a year of their own volition. And the same actor had to take a vacation, but his understudy wanted to go to a wedding. And so he said, could Chris take over for this weekend? And I was fine with it, but the other, the actors said, we're willing to do it as long as we don't have to have a rehearsal. So I did the actor's nightmare, which is about this person who's never been to rehearsal, with Nancy Marchand and other actors without a rehearsal. And actually it was great fun. I must say, it went along well. And Leslie, I had the pleasure of seeing you do high dive here for City Theatre. So maybe that's the great starting point for you to talk about acting in your own work. Yeah, I wrote high dive about, it was about turning 50. So by then I already had, I mean I came at things very differently than Chris. In fact, I auditioned for Yale and didn't get in. And there are times now when I still think about my acting audition at Yale and I just hang like that. I really didn't know anything about it. I came out of college, not particularly well trained, becoming a theater major at the very last minute. I didn't really have any kind of tool set. And I went right into Vistos, which is Volunteers in Service to America. And I was in the ghetto in Ohio teaching theater to kids in a very isolated, and it sounds noble, but I wasn't good at it. And it was, I mean I did try hard and we did do plays, but I never understood really what the point was. And then I came out of that and moved to New York with a lot of vigor and passion and just not a lot of skills. And I didn't have a community. That's the problem with not going to a conservatory or a graduate school where you come out knowing people. So I arrived in New York very much in Maverick and very alone. And I really started being at my own stuff purely out of desperation. I didn't have any other way of doing it, you know what I mean? I mean I didn't have anyone to call. I had no community. So the very first thing I wrote when I arrived in New York, not thinking I was a writer, it was a play called Footlights, which I actually think I talked about. Did I talk about it? Where I did 12 different characters and I changed from character to character only by changing my shoes. So the only thing that was on stage was shoes. And the whole play went from the floor up, you know, as my posture changed, the character changed. And then I got an agent and then I moved on. But it is how I started that. I wrote for myself. And once I did that, I wrote for myself a lot because I can do it. I know how to write for myself. So there were other things that I did along the way. And then when I was turning 50, I had this experience of trying to jump off the high-dive board for a whole week. And I could never actually jump off the board. So I wrote that play that was a really different play because the audience was given scripts and they had to read lines to me while I stood on the high-dive. It worked so well. Thank you. It was funny and it was risky. It was a risky thing to do and I really enjoyed it. So actually now we're at a point. There's another one accident I've done since then like plan day and 24 years in plays that you know. But now I'm in a position where I've just written a play that turned 60. And this isn't a solo play. And as I was writing it, I was trying to pretend that I wasn't writing it for myself. I really was trying to pretend that. I was thinking, no, no, I'll just sit in the back. But it's definitely, you know, so when it came time to give it to other actors to read, and I did a couple of meetings of it and then had the theater club and had some good actors read the role. And I got a lot out of that. And I knew that it was really my role. I really didn't want to do it. I have to say that it is out now actually just got a production. And it's going to be opening a year from now at Bay Street and Zeg Harbor and Crime Minute. I'm delighted that they let me go in and I realized that it's a premiere and not every director wants to work with the playwright who is also in it. There are minuses to that because the playwright isn't available to keep writing. You know at some point you have to stop. It's also the kind of thing and I've done it. I was in my own play in Pittsburgh called Bluntly Day. And the actor would be talking to me and I would say, I'm going to change that line. I'm going to change that line. And the actor would be like, ah! And I'd just get a piece of paper and I'd change it and say this. And then I'd say, no, no, don't say it like that. Which really, really is so important. That's so awful. I am a little nervous about doing this this summer. I have to behave better than that. I hope that the play is more finished than the one that opened in Pittsburgh. And I do imagine that if the play, hopefully the play moves, that I won't go with it. That I will step out. What's the title of that play? Out of the City. And it is opening out of the city. I did see an actress here do high dive. And it was so interesting having seen you do it and know that it was so much your story.  I know that's what you do. I have to tell you that my son here, I'm his heir. And there was a production of high dive running in Poland and in Slovakia for months. They were doing me and they sent me a disc of it and we watched it in Slovakia. Wow. There was a band on stage on the diving board. Oh, it was a very different interpretation. But we can understand it so we enjoy it. Do you both feel as confident as actors as you do as playwrights? I can't say that. Okay. I think as an actor that I'm a good actor, but I don't think I'm particularly special. I think I had a modest career as an actor and I don't think I was as hungry as an actor. And I don't think I wanted it as much. When I became a writer, I felt more myself. I liked being in control of things. And I think I do have my own voice that I am more specific, more unique as a writer than I was as an actor. And I've actually had the same thought about myself in that in high school I liked to write plays and I very much enjoyed being in them too. And I was interested in doing both, but I had a thought which was I think I'm more unusual as a writer than I am as an actor. So I had the same thought. That having been said, I like acting and I miss it a little bit. I've seen you in some movies though which I mean if you didn't write them you just had small parts in different movies. Yes, true. I've always gone, that's great. Yeah, well actually if I may, well a couple things come to mind. My long term time agent who's died a few years ago, by now probably 10 years ago, Helen Merrill, I really knew her. She was wonderful. And I was lucky to have found her rather than she found me. But she said to me early on that she said be careful, she said I wouldn't do that much acting because I think you'll confuse critics and audiences. Are you a writer or are you an actor? So I listened to that because at the same time I was being sent on auditions for commercials. I never got one, but it could be very good money. So anyway, I sort of put that in my pack. But then when my play Titanic, I was not in it. Sigourney Weaver not known yet was in it. And it got mixed but friendly reviews when it was on at 11 at night. And a friend of ours from from the school who had some family money decided to move it to off Broadway. But it only was an hour and 10 minutes or something. And so we decided to do a curtain raiser. And Sigourney and I had, because of the singing class we'd been in, we had done a sort of ad hoc 20 minute version of this act together. Which we eventually called Doss Lucetania Song Spiel. And it was a parody. We pretended that we were experts on rep and third vial. Which the rep did much of. And I actually loved them, but they're extremely eccentric in their writing. So when we did Titanic, Sigourney and I decided to do a half hour version of our night club act. And it was, the reviews were just ghastly, especially for Titanic. And anyway, it was really a ghastly thing. And that's when my reviews were so bad I said to my agent, will anyone ever do a play of wine again? And she said, yes, people can get reviews. Which is mostly true. Not always true, mostly true. But anyway, so then I went on and had this American film. And right after the terrible reviews and it was such a relief to go to the O'Neill and everybody liked the play. It was a lovely experience. And then Sigourney, main alien. And all of a sudden she was famous. And she was friends with the people who were producing and had written banishes. And for some reason or other, I don't know how it happened. But they said, why don't you and Sigourney do your cabaret act at 11 o'clock at night after vanities? And there's one dressing room. So we would show up at 10.30 and I'd be in the dressing room with all these women. It didn't matter. In any case, we decided to do this cabaret and we rewrote it from the earlier version. And I think made it better. And oh gee, one of my friends was very worried and said, should you be doing this? You think it's a good idea? And also, so we started the first time, the first couple of performances, I was a little nervous. And an acquaintance, I'm not going to name him, came to see. Sister Mary had just been done with ESD and got the weight reduced. And Dusseless-Itanian was going to happen shortly afterward. And this friend came and we went out for dinner. And it was like 9 o'clock and I just had to be at the theater at 10.30. And he said, is your cabaret act going to be reviewed? And I said, yes. And he said, gee, I think Sister Mary said, but if you can stop it being reviewed, you're not very good in it. So I had to, not only was it terrible, but I had to perform in like an artwork. So anyway, I had a couple of duets at the beginning, and then I had a solo called The Young Sailors Lesson. It was like a parody of a Kirk Vile song. And a little bit of a surrogate of Johnny Stewart's song. So anyway, and I had to walk downstage. Because I was walking downstage, I thought to myself, you're not very good. But then I thought, that is a terrible thing to say to yourself when you're on stage. I said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to myself. And then I got, for some reason it made me giddy that I was having this conversation with myself. And I got good then. That's great. And then we got great reviews. We got fabulous reviews. And we became a sort of a cult thing. And I remember because we had, it was really crackpotty, because we would say that Bertolt Brecht wrote Barry Lyndon in the movie. So Gordie played Marissa Barenson, and I played the five-year-old son. Then we had this thing that we said that Brecht had written Ava Perone, The Demon First Lady of Wainless Areas. And he combined Sister Rick and Sister Ray with Sweeney Todd as a beat-up. And it was, I'm glad we didn't know at the time, but Stephen Sondheim then came and laughed and laughed at it. And anyway, it was a wonderful experience. So I don't remember what I was answering. But that was a fun experience. Oh, I know why I said that. Oddly, because of Dustin Satania, I started to get cast in things. Not a lot, but somewhat. And then around the time I got cast in my own play, The Marriage Bet and Boo, playing the character of Matt, and that's my one biographical play. It's about my parents' marriage and extended family. And Matt is actually me. I did not expect to do it, but in the early readings for Joe Papp, I didn't do the part. And then very weirdly, Joe Papp was famous for not seeing things outside of his own theater. But he saw me in the Young Playwrights Festival thing, and anyway he suggested that I do it.  But then I thought, I can't do it. Joe Papp is bothering me in a part in my own play. I definitely should say yes.  What was Christian Karr's play? I'm getting my act together. She wrote it, but it was Joe's idea that she's playing it. Anyway, that ended up being one of my favorite experiences ever. And I'll just tell one thing about it, because I had worked with Jerry Zaks as a director about three times now. He was going to be a director, so I felt a lot of comfort in him. But in the last couple of plays, he could actually ask me to come to the first read-through as an author and then go away for a week and then come back so that he could get a rapport with the actress going.  However, now that I was in it, I couldn't go away for that week. And not only that, but the first day of... Maybe it was the second day, because we didn't... I'm not a big believer about being around the table long enough. Anyway, so did Jerry. So the second week, we were probably... I'm sorry, the second day, we were probably... David was starting to direct it. And Matt had different... I'm sorry, not directed, but I liked it. He loved it.  There's a little boy you don't want to do too much. Anyway, Jerry was blocking it. He said, why don't you try sitting on the floor by the couch? And I went, sitting on the floor? And I saw his face go, you're resisting me. And I said, alright, okay, I'll try it. And anyway, I just... But as the day went on, there was this unspoken tension. And then I thought to myself, I am getting an acting paycheck. And so I, of course, have to try what he asked me. I mean, I did try it, but I needed to not show an initial question. Question, there was me the author thinking, is that a good idea for them? So I actually apologized to them at the end of the day, and I said, I'm getting an acting salary, and I'm sorry, I will not do that again. And then it was great. And I was very glad that I needed to apologize. Smart. Did that turn out to be a great acting experience being in it? It was wonderful. And not only was it wonderful. Leslie mentioned Olympia of Caucus. We had so many wonderful people, but some of them gave indelible performances. And I went down and saved his role in Olympia and was so wonderful and a part of it.  We were off stage, but we had all watched from the wings. There's one that he was singing in an Olympia hit. It was just wonderful. The thing that was very strange about it is that it was my family of origin. And, of course, it's fictionalized to some degree, but there was a lot that was not. And I remember that two actors said to me somewhere, I can't remember if it was in rehearsal or when they were in performance, they said it was one day where you said some line and it seemed so true it was disturbing. Or not disturbing, but they said, it was just really, really weird. So it was really, really odd. And I also thought to myself, I have a feeling I seem very out-going this weekend, but I am out-going because that's what I feel I should be. But I am shy. And if you put me at a cocktail party with people who don't know who I am, I can't talk to anybody. I don't know how to make chit-chat with people. So in any case, I just thought that how did I ever get in this play that is so self-revealing? Because in the second part, there's an awful lot about separation from parents and all that. Anyway, it was very self-revealing. And Jerry, by the way, was such a wonderful director. And he gave this direction the last scene that died. He's very sad. But Matt, who is now 30, which I was about 36, was in the hospital and booed. They were going to divorce. But he showed up as a visit. And Jerry's direction after he went through once was, he said, now, obviously he's sad. Do not play the sadness. This is actually a good visit. For them, it's a good visit. And Beth has stopped trying to change booing. She's just accepting him. And then he also gave Beth and Matt some disagreements in the scene for the final time. And he said, you know, do them pull out, but then let it go. You're not holding onto it. And anyway, I just found that so a wonderful direction. And then it was just a very special scene to be in. And I will just say about how things can go along with other productions. I saw productions, actually the first one I saw a year after the public one had closed. And it was a production that never got any laughs. And the last scene, they had the hospital scene like it was Beckett. They were in solo, what you might call it, spotlights. And they looked out and didn't talk to each other. It was one of the worst productions I've ever seen. However, the one we were in, I loved. And I liked the revival a couple of years ago as well. I know that you guys haven't really directed your own work much.  I directed one act play that I wrote called Death Day for a deaf friend of mine. And I directed a play in The Atlantic called There You Are. And I think I've done others, but I can't remember if I have. Do you think, in general, a playwright directing his or her own work, is there an advantage to it or are there drawbacks to it? I know, for example, Edwin Albee has often directed his own work. And some people think that's great. Some people think you're eliminating that extra brain and creative input and collaborator. So I just wonder how you feel about directing the work that you've written. I actually don't have the patience for it. It's like the first day I want them to be better. I've often heard some serious users who say that they like my work having the extra vision of a director. The vision is too strong of a work, but the participation and so on. And also, the times I've directed, I'll tell you, when I directed Playing Knot by Me at the Young Playwrights Festival, I really enjoyed it, except for the fact that I didn't have breathing time. On the break, everybody comes up to you and the set designer comes up and it's really hard, and it's the playwright you get to. I never smoked, so I didn't go out for a smoke, but I went out for coffee or to take a walk and just have a break. And then the other thing, I don't know where I was going, but I will say, though, that if I see something that's horribly directed, I will somehow wish I had it directed or something like that, but I have enjoyed working with directors. For me, I really need the director to be open to listening to my thoughts. And with a couple of the directors, the first director I worked with at Yale was a lot of fun, and he just let everybody talk anytime they wanted to. He was so loose about it, once we had a professional production of his, he was still very young, and I was very young. And the actress was not understanding the section where the writer turns into Martha from Virginia Woolf. And he talked to her and she just couldn't get it. And I said to her, would you talk to her some more? And he said, why don't you talk to her? I can't seem to get through to her. And on the one hand I thought it was nice, and on the other hand I thought, oh, you're giving up. And then I tried and I couldn't get through. She wasn't being difficult. And I guess she'd seen Virginia Woolf. She just didn't get how to put it in. It didn't matter though because it was a brief part of the play and she was very good at both of it. But anyway, so mostly I'd not like to. Oh, just one more thing though about, I know what I wanted to say. And Leslie said she wants the actress to get there right away. If I were to direct more, I would have to control myself about wanting results. I really like them to get it right. Well, maybe we're in a different way. Many of the actors get it right at the first read through. They just know how to do it. And then what happens is the second week they start to doubt it. They change it and get it more. Right. And the people who are good directors I feel... Tolerate. Tolerate it. And let it. And try to get it right. No, it's really true. No, it's true. And I have one example. I just wanted to give my play, Miss Witherspoon was directed by Emily Mann at MacArthur. And Emily is a lovely person. I really like her and she's the director. And there was this character, this actress who was fabulous. She got it. It wasn't Miss Witherspoon. It was another partner play. And she got it with her audition. And at some point she announced in rehearsal like a week and a half in that she wanted to play it in a different way. She didn't like this particular way of doing it. And the way she did it made it not work. It simply didn't work. And I went as... Oh, I just... It was painful. And it was also late in the play. And I thought, if she doesn't change, can I rewrite it in some way? And I couldn't. It was... What she had to say was interval to what happened to the ending. So I went aside to Emily again. I wouldn't say this out loud anymore. And I said, are we in agreement that it can't work this way? And she said yes. And I said, and do you think you'll be able to get her back? And she said, yes I do, but I think it'll take two or three days. And I said, well I'm going to go home for three days. Because it'll give me an ulcer. But I'll come back. And I came back and she was back. And so, you know, who goes to Emily for knowing how to do that? One of the things that I think that I struggle with as a director is that I have a very definite rhythm in my head of how the actors speak. So that I can tell that if actors are not hitting a certain word in a sentence like that one word, I know that one word will just change everything. You just hit that one word so I'm not getting, like you can tell that I'm tense, which isn't helpful for that. And I also think that I'm inclined to give line readings, which people say they don't want. But I have to say that, I know that Rich told me, that when they were in rehearsal for Take Me Out, that Joe Mantello had just the greatest finesse because he's an actor, director. And Joe, in this really conversational way, was able to talk to an actor and drop the line reading right in, and keep going. He just had the way to do that, which is much different than he's saying, no, no, just say it like this. So there is a way to do that, which I don't trust. I don't have his finesse. He's really excellent that way. I have a lot more questions, but I know you guys do too. We don't have too much time, so we'd like to ask questions on this subject. As a playwright, what are the most important elements you feel a director brings to the production? Could or should bring to the production? You know, Mike Nichols is famous for saying that the 90% of direction is casting. And the casting is, first of all, the playwright and the director are always there together if it's a first production alert. And it's one way of finding out that you're in sync if you're liking the same people. And I almost always like the same people, not as the director. I've just been lucky that way, but so the casting is almost the most important thing. And I've had a few times, well twice, where we had to fire people and it's always the director who has to do it and it's always traumatizing for everybody. But it was really necessary. And then the third time, at the first reading, I saw we made an enormous mistake and I went to the director and to the producer and said, I've been down this route before. He's not going to be able to get it. It's better to replace him right now. And neither of them agreed with me. And I was just stuck. And then I really did my best to help the actor very genuinely and he never ever could get it. Luckily he wasn't a lead, but it was a great experience. And then, G, what else would you say you look for in the director? I'm just always impressed by the process of the characters come into the characters, how the actors grow inside the... how they're gently guided to understand beat for beat for beat of the play is about. So I'm really interested in directors that actually divide the play into beats so that we really do understand that this story, this larger story, is being told in these small ways all the way through and that each one is clear. And some directors work in a way of actually making sure a beat is clear before it moves on. And that can be very effective to have a really... make sure your story is being told and that it isn't vague in some way. And I know that stories can be interpreted in lots of different ways, but we do come at it wanting to make a point. And it's nice when you sense that you agree on what that is. And also, the aesthetic of a play, I'm not always confident about. I'm not always confident that I understand how my actors should dress. I'm not always confident that I understand what the set is. I do know when the set is wrong. I can tell. One of my plays, not any of you, was actually, for some reason, the set was an arc. It was a boat. I never understood that. It really wasn't. It was just a round wall like that. It was a famous New York designer, so it was confusing to me. But I didn't have enough confidence in my own aesthetic to say, I don't know, is the set right? So it's nice when you have a director that you can trust his or her aesthetic that it's going to look right. I have a much better sense about lighting. I know what kind of lighting I want and don't want and I really weigh in on that. I can't tell when things are wrong. I can't always say why it needs to be different. I sometimes get boggles. I really appreciate directors who can help me figure out why this is right. I think we have another session coming up. Is there one more real quick question? Yes. Time frame between new works. When you start to get down on paper to finally getting an arc on stage, is it damaged? Oh, wow. I don't know if there's an average. I'll tell you. A play gets faster than musical and a movie can take anywhere from two years to 20 years. So I would say I write a play and then if it's up in a year, that's good. I agree. And it sometimes can be. And then sometimes it's also... I've discovered it feels to me like the regional theaters have started making their following season earlier than they used to. That it used to be if you got them a play in January or maybe even March, they might consider it. And, matter of fact, my play Why Torture is Wrong and the people who love them got into the public quickly because they lost a play. So otherwise it wouldn't have been a full year later. I just want to say thank you. I hope that you both will still act in your own work because I'd love to see you on the stage. I'll try to do it. I will. The two of you will be active in your own work tonight. That performance is from six to seven-third. So the plan for the rest of the day is we're going to have another quick break. Then we have our final session, sort of symposium type session from four to five. And we've got quite a panel for that. A few local artistic directors as well as Christian joining us again. Our representatives from Seattle French will really be talking about when playwrights submit their work, when they're commissioned to do work and some of the intricacies of that. So I'll say just as a reminder to stop at the desk out in the lobby to get your parking validated with one sticker. And if you have people coming in tonight as guests no, no, no no, no no, we have to have an adjustment. So that will information will come later. We'll continue.


Oh, right. Hello. This is Christian. So in this video, we're going to look at the react on control components. Okay. So the uncontrolled components is a type of components you put inside the form with the data we call the single source of truth, the actual data is maintained and the actual Dom like this pictorial here. So here we have a form in the bottom here, you have your input tags that uses a attribute called ref. This is not part of the Dom, the ref attribute is part of react attribute. And it binds to a variable called in this case username and email respectively. Okay. So out here in the back in the source, you would then create two variables called email and username and you bind that. To where you set it that to a what's called a react that create ref type of component. Okay. And so these two variables that now are synchronized will actually bind to this to feel stuff here. But the data, the actual data still is in the Dom. Okay, so the only way to get this data is through these two variables here. And you get that by accessing them this way. So each of these variable has a current attribute, and then that current attribute points to the value, which is the value of this element. Of course, you can also get it to the event too, but that's the just the normal, you know, way, using react method you can use it this way to access the data. Yeah, I'll show you what that's current why that's why the current is here and what this why is it there. Right. So this is how you know it was set up in one example. The other one up here is. Okay, so again some notes. When is a component, an uncontrolled component, how do you know which one is a controlled, what is not a control. So I put some notes in here saying that any input tag as soon as you bind that input tag the value attribute to the state property, then that input tag becomes a control component. Right. So you bind that to the value, the other this data username, and then to make it work though you have to also bind call the unchanged function to update the data so you can see it in that other field right if you don't do that is is not going to work. If you don't do that if you don't include the change function here, then what is what it is is what's called a read only attribute and therefore you cannot make changes. Okay, so these two usually go together hand to hand like this. So that is a control component. The uncontrolled component is you don't have in binding to the state, like you see down here so notice the input. It's not bound to any value. The state, same thing down here. Okay, they are controlled by a ref. And so to get the data, you will get through the ref attribute. This will just show you that the uncontrolled component just like the regular HTML DOM. The data back coming from the view. Okay, if you hit if you see the source view if you print it out, you're going to see that what it is is that the event. Each of these attributes has an event and this type of event is part of what's called a synthetic event. Inside this event object, we have a bunch of other properties and one of these properties is what's called the, you know, the like the name and the ID and the class name and the current is also part of this as well. You can access through the current attribute I show you above. Okay, so here's an example of two examples how you can create a an uncontrolled component react. One is using the react create ref function like you see here for so first you would register a variable. In this case, I call it a username and the you register using the react that create ref function. The reference that is being ready to be used and order to use it in the in the DOM, you would then create a variable or I mean in your input tag or whichever it is doesn't matter what the input types. Then you bind that to here through the reference attribute and you set it to that username. Okay, so this name here must exist in the in the global space here. Either in the constructor or any outside of constructor that variable must exist. So it binds to that so you know, so we know where to get the data from. Okay, and then when you submit this form, then you can obtain the data through this variable as opposed to a target value right so you get it directly from this variable here. And you get that through the using the username that current dot value. Okay, you doing this method you have access in this way. Now the second way is what's called the inline arrow function. So notice in this example here, I'm going to create the same username. This time I did not create a variable at all in the global space or in the class constructor right. So you create them by using a callback function. So this part here is actually a callback function that looks like this one here right so I put here. It takes an attribute a parameter, it could be any any variable of your choices on the matter. And then it just has to be an arrow function. And then it will assign the variable name that it creates so this variable here it will be created dynamically and instantly without having to recreate above here. And then you assign that to the variable that it receives. Okay, so this function here is a function. What it does is really the input tag, the value as you type the value here. The value is passed to this function via this variable. And so you can set a global variable called user name equal to that variable. That's what it is. Right, so as you can see down here. When you access that you just use it because you know it exists right here. And so to use it you just can call it and then now that value and notice notice this way. You don't have the current property, because this username is already this tag. So this part here is the same as saying input that value. Okay. As different from this one here. This one here you see it says the username that current value, the username is the variable name current is the current tag, which is in this case this tag, and then that value. So you go one step further. That's that's a difference. All right. So that is how you use the uncontrolled in react. So let's go and take a look how this is done. So to create a very simple app, I'm starting a new one here.  So you have to use a state for component, which is a class component to retain data. So I want to change this to a class component. Okay, so very simple class. So we move that parents to react that component. Call that and then inside here you want to put this whole thing inside every render function. So you move everything here inside here. Okay, and you close it. Yeah, you close it down here like that. Oh, no, I did it wrong. The return. Let's see that's that they're wrong. Oh, one more. Okay, a lot of. All right, what's going on. Let's do it again. I messed up somewhere. I mean, very confusing. Okay. Oh, yeah, it was correct. Sorry, my typo up there. So it was correct. I have to extend after. Okay, very good. So this is the typical class component. And I'm going to create a constructor here. It takes the props. And then I'm going to pass the props that is super. Right. And then now, down here, I want to create a. That's what is supposed to show the other tag over there. Yeah, I want to show this one here. Okay. So yeah, here we go. What is that use. Okay, and just say that I'm not using anything here because it's going to create anything. So you could create state. Right. So let's create one so that I say create a state call username. And we just put here blink for now. Okay, so that's my state. And then down here, I'm going to create input tag. Let's put it here. No, actually, you know what, let's go straight to a form. Tag. And then set a form. I'm going to create a input tag. We can use that one there input. Okay, I don't need a name in this case you can but I'm not going to use the react on the dumb method. I use the react method. Okay, so I don't really need a name. I just need to bind to the F. And so here is going to be a username and create. So I'll call it inside my suit constructor. I'll create another variable called this user name. Assign that to the react that create wrap. Okay, you, you create this reference, and then you can use it in here. So it'll be this user name. So now it's bound to this component. This reference and then you can access it when you submit the form. So let's go down here to the bottom and create a button. Summit. Okay, and then your form you want to put on submit. And we're going to call it a function called this that handle submit. Okay, I'm not past anything to it. So up here we'll create a function called handle submit. And you can put it here if you want. I'm not going to use it. Maybe you should. Yeah, but we're going to do a prevent default. So we don't want to load the form. When you click the submit form like this, you notice that it doesn't refresh. Remember you do that.  Right. We don't want that. Okay, so we make sure that is turned off. And so he does not load. Oops. Okay, let's remove that. Perfect. So now, when you submit the form. When you're everything here and you're ready to go, you click submit, and then the data is kind of come to this function. And then we're going to store the data from going to get data from this variable here. Okay, so just to show you that it does work. It comes along that to, you know, yeah, let's put it outside here so we can see right outside of the form. Let's put a div down here. Okay, so I'm going to put here a output. And then this is going to be bound to this user name that current value. Okay. And it says, okay, this little tree because it says I was fresh again. Okay. Crash because this is a no property. That means that when you load this page, right, my variable here is actually no because I never updated yet so this is no. And, and usually, in this case, you put a question mark right here. It's called a what do you call that one. It's like a safety type of thing. That means that if it's not know that don't put anything. Okay, so we'll see what this one does. All right. I don't think it'll update, but we'll see. And so when I click this something have with some ABC here. I want to put the data to right here. And also to the console. So as you can see, didn't work myself up here. And to see the data because we never rendered the dumb, because there's no change we never touched a state, right you don't see the output. Okay. And so to do that, you have to do something like a set state, just so we can see it. Probably the username is equal to going to change a username. And we're going to create, we're going to get the username from there so put. Yeah, username is going to be assigned to the that this username that current that value. Okay, so again the data is bound to this input tag via this variable, you get the data from this tag through the username that the current that value. Okay, this is synonymous to saying like this, if I do like you know if you do like the always you know like const. So input is equal to document that get ID. If I pull it for example, if I get ID like this. Like input. Okay, so input here. And how do you get the data is Oh, come on console log input that value. Okay, this is synonymous to this whole thing here. Okay, and we'll see if this is true. So if I do something like this. Right. And when a submit is going to output the data and put here is the same idea, but of course we're not doing the dump this method I'm just showing you that this is how you get this data from here. Okay, and so why is it like that. Well, we can do this, we can do a show you console log. Okay, watch this one. I click submit over here. Let's put Apple here, submit. And I suppose a console of that. Oh, I did not do handle submit. Let's see this handles submit. Refresh this. Okay. And it's not for something. Okay, yeah, turn that off. Okay, so here we go. Right if I put a right you see that the data, this data here is this one right here. Okay, I'm getting that out through the traditional way of getting the dump value. Okay, so notice when I log this out that he here is this guy right here this is a synthetic base event. And this event object, making a little bit bigger. You're going to see, if you expand that you're going to see that one of these right has a. It has a target and set a target you have all these attributes right. So all these are part of this with the element here. And and that's how you get this information here. Okay, so this is like the traditional way to get us to those data. So again, when I'm going to go, they're going to get to the object. Okay, so I just want to show you. So you get it through this current object. And you get the data from this variable assigned to the state you change the state so that it will, you know, update the state so we can put the data with the data out here because we're going to open the data down here. And I'm sure if it shows up or not. We can see the updates that because, you know, we touched the state right here if you did not do that, you won't see this change. So that's how you load data when we move this again, we have you want recap one more time, make sure it's clear enough. So in your form. Okay, your input tag binds to the ref attribute let me delete this very short and clear this week. The ref attribute binds to a variable, a variable must exist and your global space, either inside the constructor like this, or outside of it if you put outside like this. It's just remove this like that. That's fine to it doesn't have to be inside the constructor, but usually put inside it because it's just cleaner that way. So as you can see, we bind to this username. And then I will you submit the form you access the form would then call this function handle submit, and then you can get all your data from those fields. And then you update your state that way. Okay, you get the data through this object via the current property that value. Okay, doing this method you have to do that way. Right so again so if you say we go here you put like for example like Jack, Jake, and that's how you get Jake's data. Okay, and and same thing here. Right. Right so this is the actual data coming from the user current which is this guy here I did not call this from the state to check the state you can also put right here. We're here. You can compare. I'm just I'm just showing you here here. Okay, so if we stay variable with this that states that username. That's a state data. So if you type a right there again a call. Okay. So that is how you do it this method. Now, I'm going to show you the other method. And this is by creating a another field down here that's going to duplicate this line. See that. And I'm going to bind using the end line function okay call by function and we'll call it it's a cover function so it takes like the error function like this. You pass in a parameter. Doesn't matter where it is in color value is fine is value here will contain the actual value from this input tag pass it to this variable and set the body to function you will see that you assign that to a variable of your choice. I'm going to call this one here. This that place assigned to the value here. Okay, so this will like the username and the city of the place that doesn't matter. Maybe we'll call it city. And so it just bind to the variable. And then now this city variable exists dynamically in your code if you don't have to, you don't have to create it here. Okay, so I'm going to put this back in here. Okay, I don't like it. I'll sit here. I like it inside here because all together inside the constructor cleaner. Okay. So now, and then my state variable I can create one call city and leave it blank as well. So I have to probably put a city state. I think you want to submit the form again my city formation kind of do the same thing right. So when I update my username, and then I also want to update the city by going to this that city that value now this time. Notice I did not go through the current like I did with the other one. Okay, because the way I did it here is different right you if you calling through a callback function this way. You access the data just going to the city and then get the value just like the input that value directly like that because this city here is actually binds to the actual input already. It looks like that. So you just exit directly if you create it using this method and the ref just bind to a variable, you have to go to the current okay just remember that, and oh it's not like it's a lot but just remember. And then now down here I'm going to output this as well so you got the current value reported here and also put this that city, and then we'll put here question that value. Okay, so it doesn't crash. I think is not like it, or what if I do right. Yeah, because the city doesn't exist here. Okay, so yeah, this one will be tricky. Yeah, let's not put there. It doesn't exist at first. So there's no value here. This one I create a way to say it should work, but let's forget about that one. Here is that state that city. Okay, so I put here a and BBB and then you see that it works like that. Okay, so that is how you want to do using the uncontrolled component this approach or this approach, whichever is convenient to whichever you like. You know, sometimes it's maybe easier to do it this way. You can see what you can know right away. But again, give you that flexibility. Okay. Now, I want to just update this just a little bit. Now that we understand how this work. I'm going to go and update my state and my data limit. So let's say I'm going to store my data inside the state here not through, you know, to variable here but if I create something like this. So let's put here another variable, like, maybe data, and then binds to a state. Okay, so the data object has a city username and city in there. Okay, so the username here that is still here, but when you build your state, right, you have to have to update your, your data this way. And if this is case that you have to do a little bit different right I can just do this have to do like, let's see, like data. The easy way to do is you do this way. It would do const state, let's go user name is equal to have this user name so just copy this. We're here. Const the city is equal to this. Right here.  Okay, easy right so you put here const. Yeah const data is equal to this that state that data, you load the whole data in. And then you go data of the state is the name is equal to user name. And then you update the data that city is equal to city right, and then you update the data. Okay, this is one way to do that. I'm showing you I'm using a nested object inside here. I'm going to values, and then I load my local state a copy of the state, update the data and then update that right after that. And so now, hopefully we'll still work just like before. Okay. The city doesn't load because my data user name and city user name and city. See what's going on. Yeah, that's right. I just didn't put down here so this really data that state and the data city. Okay. So just one, one little step more because sometimes you have to use this way. No state. Sorry, all messed up data that username state. That is city. Okay. All right. So this is an example, another example, where you have a nested object and set another one. You know, if you, if you don't understand this way, make sure you review it because this is going to be very, very common. We have a key have the value of another object. Right. I could have data like that. And you have another one right. So you could be like, for example, another one here. Points and then we'll go to another object. We have, you know, Levels, another object. Okay. So all these are your states. So make sure you're comfortable with using multiple layers of object this way. Right. And then if you do it correctly, it's, it's quite easy to get those data. Right. So I do that I don't have any other one but you should still work because I'm up to it in this state. Okay. So, again, this is just showing you that I have a state called data. And that it is an object has two properties username and city. And then I create a username as a separate variable and bind to a field username for another one here dynamically called city bind to that input using a callback function. When you submit the form, you call this function here and you retreat the data from the username and from the city that value assigned to separate variables. You don't have to, you know, put this whole thing, like, you know, in here, right. Of course, you can you don't have to do this. You could just put this right here is fine too. Okay. I just put it is easy to see but you can totally do this. Absolutely. Right. As you can see. Okay, that's fine. And then, you know, get a copy of your state and update each of those properties and then update your state. Okay, I do it this way, because it's easier. Right. It's easier than you go in here and do like data that use a name. Right. And then, actually, I can do this. And then, you know, use a name and so forth. Okay, so it's really, it's really hard to do that inside here. Okay, so you have to do that and you call this guy, put it in here like that. Right. And then you do another one. This is the hard way. Okay. No, send you can just put city here and then finds to this guy here. Put it right in here like that. And then by doing this way. I think they're wrong. I need another curly like that. Right. So this way that I don't need this whole thing. Right. Okay, so as you can see, if it's correct, it should still work. Right. So lots of ways to do it.  Right. If it is, is, is hard to see, do like I did earlier. It's easier to do that way. Okay, so that is all for this part. And then I'll see you in the next video.


Boom, what's up everyone welcome to simulation. I'm your host on sake and we are still on site in Boston, Massachusetts This is now our third episode Featuring core is number one question asker Alex K Chen. What's up? Hey? What's up? What's up? Thanks for coming on to the show. Yeah. Yeah for the third time the second time in Boston We came on the show in San Francisco last time. No the first. Yeah, sir versus Boston Oh, yeah, because the first time we're in summer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, which is in the Boston area So twice in the Boston area. It's just been good and We're having Alex on for the third time because our conversations with Alex are They're multidisciplinary. They're super pushing the cutting edge of knowledge. Well, I'm just very very meta Alex isn't bad. Yeah, that's right. You are I like that a lot and I like how you are again pushing the cutting edges of knowledge a lot and That's what we want to talk about in this episode and I Love thinking about things in terms of like a ring of cutting-edge knowledge and that there's Humanity civilization has evolved to know certain things this collective learning and the collective learning has been pushed to this ring But there's things in the unknown in the outsides of the ring and Alex likes to live And I do too a lot on that outside of that ring trying to scrape and find more information So tell us about why you're so passionate about that edginess, I just know that being that Good things are likely to happen to you more often if you just do edgy scenes you also are more of to stay relevant over time and If you're if you stay relevant over time, it basically means that people more people more willing to pay attention to you or things you touch and Also, it helps you basically adapt to a world that is constantly changing Yes staying relevant. You can actually adapt more in a world that's changing if you stay edgy You're not in the sort of conformist Area that so many other people fall into It's nice to stay on the edge. Mm-hmm. Yeah Okay, keep going on on on edginess. I think If you're constantly edgy, you're also more likely to discover facts about yourself or the world that allow you to escape local maxima that people somehow have a tendency to stick to So it's almost as though there's a Constantly pushing the the boundaries of what is is being discussed in the conversations that you have is Actually will get you much further and they'll get the overall collective learning that's going on in that circle further Yeah, hmm Okay, so how do you push the edge? So I will acknowledge that I'm not I'm I'm not as good as I did as I could be Um Of course this is true for all other people. I think exposing myself to new ideas and people from all the time especially in different domains and also just like Figure out the stimuli the stimuli or people that help you maximize your learning rate per unit of time since there is like a very specific type of pattern information that Basically optimizes your learning rate or optimist or experiencing rates And it has to like there's a relationship between all the knowledge you have And and whatever knowledge that optimizes that that rate is and oftentimes being there Where um where you can't have everything basically thrown at you is one way to um to basically be you know For example, um, oftentimes the fastest when you're talking to someone the fastest learning rates When talking to someone are like when you're in crowded multi-dimensional settings Or like setting through no other people than you see and you basically watch It's like there's a lot of information that that's that's basically covered that that you can basically like kind of figure out even if you can mostly map semantically you um, you just know to observe those over time. So basically like um The more stimuli that faster learning rate Hmm Okay, so optimizing learning rate for yourself and others I like that a lot. So yeah, there's We've talked about this before on the show But it's so sad that we'll never be able to know everything. Well, who knows bring computer interfaces Maybe we'll be tied into everything uh soon But what does for you? What does it mean then to optimize that rate of learning specifically For you you started kind of pointing and uh and touching at it and it we have the limitation in just 80 years of time So we got to figure out what environments what people we should surround ourselves with What information areas on the internet should we surround ourselves with so start talking So I think areas that I'm about to stay relevant those are recurring relevance and um oftentimes um Like those that um the areas so basically I used the areas I used to be attracted to Are aren't areas and most people want to learn unfortunately because they're not relevant You know if he was live even though you can't spend entire lifetimes just spending just studying Areas of psychology that are universally relevant to people um, so even then most people will not necessarily learn, uh, it's um Most people are not served best by learning each and every area of that. Um, oftentimes, um, let's say Seeing how you behave in very unusual situations. For example, the type of learning and then sometimes if you can remember it well enough It gives you the courage to push through Um other situations were not feeling optimal But you know, but you have the confidence that pushing through will basically lead Good things will happen if you if you do push push through so so once you like basically have learned of that kind of confidence but also, um only learn that I learned that area of confidence in areas where you um where you're uh Expectations or feedback loops are in such a way that you won't overstretch and burn yourself out Damn, you you bring up this really important point You can't really push the the edge of knowledge of of humanity without having confidence You have to have confidence to be able to go and know that even though 99 Percent of people aren't thinking the way you're thinking that you can still be right Potentially and you can go and work either with other people or even alone And and aim to push that cutting edge have edgy conversations with people go to edgy places on the internet Now oh the edge that was there was no fight. Yeah, that's right the edge dot org, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah That is it's a good there's a lot of good content there. Um Okay, and the only way that we've gotten to where we are today is because humans decided to push the edge Over and over across all the different disciplines and growing the collective learning pool over time Yeah, so what else do you think are some of the you know the characteristics or the motivations behind people wanting to do that? Um, I mean that sometimes it's just survival um because there are environments where You have a large portion of the population that does get wiped out and though so for example, even just a holocaust And um, the people who usually who got out before everyone got wiped out were those who constantly thought of new information About what happened in the world and they took it step to prepare to move well before that this seems actually happened Damn So that's as though People can sort of uh hedge against upcoming threats Potentially. Mm-hmm. Oh Yeah, that's kind of what we see a little bit with the bunkers that were made during the nuclear cold during the cold war threat Yeah, also, it's not just that you also want to be sufficiently valid enough that said people will want you to basically survive through the Threats because not um, unfortunately um Not everyone Like it's hard to valid every person equally and in situations of scarcity or survival when everyone else is When everyone else is thinking about surviving themselves And in these bottleneck events, um, you basically want to figure out how to um, maximize the chance of going through Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, the I love the chances of becoming irrelevant as you said earlier. You don't want to become irrelevant You want to survive you want to survive and you want to flourish both Okay, so in the modern age now with the abundance of information the abundance of our ability Oh, yeah, oh, yeah It's like attention is also being followed and more and more attention is it's like attention is kind of becoming more Vipslaw-ish it's like more attention is going into fewer people which is why a lot of people are feeling lost neglected and sad and people obviously crisis as some sort of um, so widespread social malaise which in some respects it probably is Um, but on the other hand, um, if people are if people are kind of are insecure and looking only for themselves Then this is something you might you might see a bit more of and this is where like skill where the skills that are important for For staying valued Include ones like pushing the edge in ways that other people are a little bit too afraid of or don't have the energy for or Somehow don't think even think of as possibilities Yeah, so it's like kind of like an upside risk kind of scene Yeah and I want to speak a bit more on the The abundance of information is both Incredible and it's also can be at times. Distractive. Yeah, it can be. Yeah, so talk to us about so it's also a matter of when you're pursuing the information and if you are Um archiving it in a way that allows for easy reaccess in the future And in ways that makes you want to reaccess it into the future Interesting so So the archiving of information, so okay, so as you push the the edge of knowledge and you're You know, we'll talk a bit more about how how you're working with the people on that How do you archive information? Um Like ancient brava histories and agor and basically have this tool to scrape All the sites in ancient brava history. I don't do well enough. I'm taking more screenshots on the computer screen these days And also, um, if if I think something's going to be important for some in the future or for myself or something I want I want I want all future people to know I am definitely screenshot it because otherwise There's no there's going to be no way to capture or bookmark it or or some sort of low stakes way Though I still there are still like setting up costs that sometimes get disrupted when you switch platforms Which has happened to many people over the years. Yeah Okay, so Let's talk about um bloom 2 sigma. Yeah, this is very interesting So you choose to work on a one-on-one basis Ideally ideally with people at the edge of the fields and just or people who are just ridiculously good at what they're at Yeah, yeah, and you're we like using this analogy of playing a game of tennis So you're you know people that are high openness you can basically hit them over an interesting idea tennis ball And they can hit it back over to you with some added thoughts and you can keep pushing the boundaries of the circle of What is the edge of knowledge? Yeah, yeah, not the high openness means not be being a pretentious existence thoughts and also I'll be an attentive to adjusting their frame frame in a way that um, basically makes uh, basically it makes that thought optimal or think about better better ways to um Make make uh applies it optimally applies the knowledge Mm-hmm Okay, I like how you talked about adjusting the frame and and being humble about like Basically augmenting your perspective adding to the lens of what you see the world because somebody can always Hit you with something that is like oh that shatters a way that I saw things before Yeah, yeah, just not being attached to your to your general thoughts at all Which means like not being right of not being obsessed being right all the time And not not even putting emotional valence into being right So what how do you not attach emotional valence to being right? I think having and think curiosity about the world just knowing having the intense conviction that um You need to operate that way in order to in order for good things to continue happening to you or Or whatever your experience in your consciousness in your conscious frame basically The moment that you attach your emotions to Your ideas and and and your ways of thinking and seeing the world And if someone comes and tries to tries to augment your perspective and you're so attached to it You don't see what they're saying you're you lose the opportunity to enhance the way that you see the world Yeah, there are a lot of weird social incentives and all that people hold to being right the first time or to or to say Being the first right answer or just having political views that you don't want to budge from And it's kind of weird because i'm not sure if it's even all that Integrated with and say their utility functions at all in it's actually Uh, I don't know where to put it in terms of utility functions because there seems to be I mean in general people in general people do People do respect people more if they know that they're right on most fundamental issues um Like hey, um if someone tells you I believe Oh, if if x if you say something I i'm really convinced I am i'm really think you're you're right It's kind of flattering in that in that way because uh because it's also like attaching this notion of value and um Intelligence and all that other stuff For example, if you were to To counter my perspective on world peace. I really I want world peace. I believe in world peace I believe that we can dose up on love and get to world peace together and if you're to say it's never going to happen right I stand quite firm on on my on my stance there. I don't I don't want to budge from that So what you're saying is a value judgment not to fill in epistemic judgment. Okay. Okay Like a political judgment of what you want the future to be. Sure. Sure. Um, so then if we're talking like, um The the earth being the third planet from the star or something like that, you know, you can't really budge me from that That's justified truth. That's epistemology. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Okay. So then you can't budge me from that, right? Right is that what we're mostly. Yeah, mostly. Um, I'm not going to go into the huge debates. Okay. All right. All right um Yeah, there's a lot of different ways to talk about the way to enhance people's perspective in ways that kind of Make it So that people don't feel hurt by them saying that I'm wrong or We're we are quite attached to saying I'm right about things and it actually does cause a lot of of uh of slowdown in civilizational progress due to Due to being attached to the thought of wanting to be right Okay, so let's talk about this. Um bloom to sigma So you pick you pick people that you really will think are open very high openness Low negative emotion. Yeah And you work with them And on pushing the boundaries of what you know and what they know Or like you send them a bunch of emails or questions like what like what I used to do with kora And then sometimes they just reframe it and In a way that makes them more understandable to you and in a way that makes it easier for you to retrieve it later Uh, okay, so so you would You would you would submit your um, you know when you submit your questions kora via email. Yeah, you too used to Um, you would uh have the questions posted and then you get a people that would reply To you on kora, um refame reframing the question in a way that you thought was potentially better And I'll say reframing just answering in a way that um That basically updates my knowledge of it sometimes. Oh, that's cool Give me a good example of that. Do you remember someone's uh someone's class of how someone updated my framing. Yeah. Yeah Um, I'll have to think about that more. I mean nowadays. I just I stick to email threads It's like I mean we started with meditation where someone talked where someone talked about all my verbal games being similar to just Pushing the button the dashboard without actually doing the same it because a lot of times people who are heavy readers or people who Or a lot of even academic people they they have a tendency to just try to describe everything in ways that makes it understandable So that's actually understanding the process itself Oh, okay so What would that look like for give us like an example of when someone is just doing what you just said about not actually Potentially put you're pushing like for example observing someone playing a video game And then then describing it in the way of an anthropological sociological researcher versus actually do actually playing it yourself Get into the scene or a same thing seems to say Um programming when you're just this you're just observing programmers rather than actually programming things yourself um or um Creating huge elaborate social theories of how people interact Without interacting with the people themselves. So sometimes there there isn't really any other option other than by going the data that you have So what would you then recommend is a good balance the strike between the Playing around with the different with the different buttons and also talking about the buttons um So I think talking about the button can redirect attention to uh, ideally towards people towards say, um Uh, have it playing with the buttons for people who have skin in the game. I like that. I like that point So this is the more that you potentially talk about the the the edge let's say of the knowledge The more people will be like, well, why is that interesting? I should maybe talk about that Yeah, I mean it'll be interesting to talk to Nick to leave about it because he probably knows a lot of people who are like Edgy, um, but then take off no skin in the game. Yep. Yep. So, okay. So what about what about, um What about your thoughts on people that are edgy but don't have skin in the game tell us about that? um Well, a lot of philosophers and academics are kind of like that and they just write and write and write And sometimes not without having even exact exact except your feedback loops Um, sometimes they just publish and because there's like a just there's like an explosion of academic journals They're more paid between pubs and their eyeballs eyeballs to read them or even any Feedback loops that people are actually say updating favorably to what what they're publishing Um, though, uh, it does depend from a field to field where how the feedback loops act Mm-hmm And then okay, so when you're uh, I when you've identified the um The individuals that you're working with how many people are you usually aiming to because I see as you interact on your on your daily You're constantly, um task switching between reading and your different threads of people that you're playing this This game of edge tennis with how many people are you playing edge tennis with?  Um, I don't know about day Maybe five to ten plus five to ten a day and 20 in like a in a week or something. Yeah, yeah, probably interesting Um, and then that is you would say one of the largest contributors to your intelligence Um, hopefully in the long run. Yes Yeah And then you want to use this sort of process that you're learning about Engaging with people in this edge tennis And you want to help other people see that as a as a strong way to expand one's intelligence? Yeah, yeah Okay and then What what is it like then for you to deal with different give me some examples of like someone that's really high on openness When you play tennis with them. Oh, yeah, oh high an openness someone who basically tries all possible arrangements. They don't they don't Um, they don't stick to the same patterns all the time. They're willing to Embarrass themselves to look foolish or suffer local losses in the process of trying to learn a better route or Roots themselves even if it might not like result in accelerated payoffs in the long run. Um, they could also um, they also As some of them have very good ability also like has strong attachment to their odor games So it allows them to discuss their odor games other people and and tell them insights about their psych um Like they they basically they fundamentally like value. They haven't trained like value of it on their hits on their player history Hmm. Oh, that's good. I like how you mentioned that it's cool for them to kind of take a They're not scared to have an experience where they admit that they're wrong or that they have That they have to give up some sort of a notion that the way that they saw the world And yeah for them to actually gain more. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's really important Um, okay, and then what is it like potentially for you to to work with people at other levels? Do you even do you even do you work with people that have low openness at all? um I mean I interact with my parents And our older generations can sometimes be lower on openness I know sometimes they can nuts them in sometimes you can nudge them a little bit. Yeah So how old are the people that you would say are most on the open? Are you since seeing like 25 year olds? Is that kind of technically highest? highest openness people really are Are young young kids and teenagers except society just somehow decides the best ideas to Insulate them from everyone else which prevents them from really really into true openness and then they just end up And those self-contained grades that aren't exactly different for personal development But also like safety of sesame if it happens over them too, but anyways, I was beside the point. Um in practice people who are high openness um It's like yeah, usually it's um late teens to the 20s And some there are some who stay stay that way even higher up interesting And I mean we've talked about this a little bit before and this is kind of relevant to what you were just saying about how There's uh, there's an over protection That's going on with kids. There's the you know, we were talking to Whitney about this earlier as well just the essence of of Of controlling parenting rather than openness with parents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like this is also some Related to people once you think they're right Especially like wanting to think to think they're right from trying to protect their kids against when telling the kids for example Don't go into the car back things will happen to you It's that's that's where it starts and then and then people get scared and they have that's an interest in defending their fear Which is like defending one's own fear is one of the biggest impediments to society progress as we see also is What happened before is say gay marriage or weed legalization Oh, interesting. So the the the coddling of the mind ends up Oh, yeah Oh, yeah, even like even today's safety spaces people have that's interesting defending those safety spaces I'm actually trying to see the consequence of what happens if they you expose people to Scenes that don't necessarily directly hurt them. Yeah It we're we got to build up the immune system to adversity And to challenging or the way that we see the yeah in that thing Problem is that a lot of a lot of these things do need to be reframed in ways that are less threatening people And most people don't have the verbal agility to do to do clever reframings This is like like some I saw in a science blog how someone said in order to give feedback Two days these days you have to acknowledge the person that's right in these dimensions Before actually giving them critical feedback. Oh my gosh That's such an interesting point because I've made it clear now that I don't mind however the feedback comes so I have a mentor that delivers. Oh, yeah, you have to see the most And one way to prepare yourself for this is to just tell yourself that The the person it could potentially be open to change their mind about during the future It's just a local opinion that's held right now that can always change And it is quite possible that if you listen to someone that's delivering you feedback in a way that to you may not Be the most pleasing or comfortable Give people return chance give people second chances and not only that but also just like look at them Even though they may be potentially Come in coming at you right giving you that harsher critique But actually listen to every word they say because what they are saying Is actually the most important truth that you need to hear When someone's like looking at you and they're like, you know, you're power hungry or you're like you're overly greedy in these scenarios Or are you coming from a an intent of of malevolence in that scenario? And when they're challenging you in those ways and you're and you you're like no I'm not and you like back away from from from what they're saying You're not even reflecting you can actually deeply take what they're saying and reflect on yourself and say Whoa, okay. Maybe I actually am being a little greedy in this respect or regard. Yeah, and you can grow better So yeah, you gotta get used to having feedback delivered in all kinds of ways Yeah, yeah No, I think in what way that people are not used to having feedback Delivered is because if someone says that hey, maybe you should reframe your goals When you ask other people's life goals, they often reframe They often frame their goals in ways that that can be they're frustratable and that may not necessarily be the most robust and getting people to reframe their goals in a different way can be a way to Get that it makes them more receptive feedback in the long run But this tends to is more likely for people who are not overly invested in the system Yep And this is I want to mention this because you know, you helped bring this to light for me the idea of Of bloom to sigma specifically ends up having a one-on-one Mentor and this is actually something I mentioned about Tibetan Buddhism as well Just the idea that the lineage is passed on from a teacher to a practitioner And I think that's a very exciting way and it's now Really cool really proven that having that sort of a learning style Puts you two standard deviations above someone that doesn't have that style of learning which is huge on the on a skill of growth Now now that's why you pick this style of engagement with these with individuals is this one-on-one on your edge I'm not sure if this is actually what I do. You do a lot of groups as well. Yeah, that's what you do. Yeah, yeah And also, I'm not very intense. I'm very distributed rather than intense. Yeah. Yeah, you are you are well, you're multidisciplinary You're not yeah, yeah, but you do have a focus on aging It's been something that you focused on. Um, yeah Yeah, also just putting the pushing that edge to Okay, so Okay, let's let's see. Let's see where um, where some of these some of these questions get us I've Been I've been I've been investing a lot of of energy into figuring out how civilization got to where it has Oh god, it's so weird Yeah, go on It is very weird. Yeah, it's super strange Tell me why you think it's weird um There are so many ways Okay I mean you have the Fermi paradox and all that um it's also like I don't know. It's like we also did it even though Even though we have like such nasty cognitive algorithms. We're we're so irrational on the massive scale. We're It's like A lot of the people in power are just like have throughout history have been legitimately shitty Even but then there's like technology technology progress happens anyways And people are not most very very very few people actually wise people who write history in fact tend to be a very very um, none representative sample of everyone in the world um And it's like the level of self-awareness in people even the smartest people is like so low Even if you look like the smartest philosophers, it's like there's a lot about life that they don't really get That maybe some modern people get they're all so good Okay, there is I remember when he said that History being written by only a small amount of people So there's so much That we didn't actually accurately We keep as a record of how we got yeah and people because oftentimes um the value The value of the computer people not exactly rewarded for this. They don't necessarily see it as Something that the markets now rewarding people. Yeah for good things are not likely to happen to those who are historians of internet or archivists or um Or just Jesus like even gorn is not exactly as rich as he should be Gorn g-w-w-g-w-e-r-n And that is again the gorn.net. He's like someone, uh, he's like very very methodical in his observations of um basically like, uh Emerging trends in the top 20 years and he's very open about himself in a way that most of people are not open Like it does it does take a very high degree of openness In order to be reliable a historian or narrator Yeah, we're constantly wanting your perspective to be enhanced by new information and being open to it. Yeah. Yeah I find it very weird that We have yet to fully come to the realization that we all Evolved on this rock together and we're still having issues with greed and war and poverty and we're just We have so much abundance But we're so caught up in power controls that we're We forget about how to figure out the long term how to slow down.  It's kind of hard. Look at her sheet of rora. Okay What time does she leave the nest? She left at 16 16. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We can we can be down with uh with helping young people Find places in metropolises to go out and start surrounding themselves with like scientists and engineers and artists and different Thought leaders that would be fun entrepreneurs. Yeah, I like that young people getting out there um Okay, we talked a bit about the weirdness. Um, how about what what about what transcends This reality what exists outside of the 3d reality? Um There are many many theories about this a lot of speculation about it. Um I know so many people who are like obsessed with this question It's like it becomes their singular obsession And what are your thoughts? Um, there are a lot of There are a lot of like loops that people lot thought loops are like memes that people are attracted to like when people say they see Aliens in dmt. I'm not actually sure if I believe it's just a meme that Easily propagates it's somehow it's easily interpreted that that somehow people find easy to believe which actually makes you less believable Mm-hmm Now now is there some sort of a greater power that made this big bang happen? um I at this point, I don't necessarily Have a good idea to get some of this at all. Okay and What have been some of the things that you've been studying at the edge that you think you want to Share with people right now that maybe less that the people don't really know too much about I haven't been studying too much I think a lot of times people even as um, I think as ye waves of Being super open to the world of like publishing all raw data rather than just Published it better. What's it goes in the academic papers? um also ways um also people tell me tell me that it's not just semantic knowledge that I should go for it's also like some sort of experiential knowledge Like oftentimes the type types that easily um that easily moral like one person told me alex What I I would be faster to see what happened to you if you just went for six months In indonesia in java and then just surfed I'll just surf for that period of time it might change your internal lived experience so much that um That in a way that uh say Affects everything in the future in a good made in a good way If alex went to java for six months. Yeah and surfed. Yeah I Yeah, that breath that you just took I think that may happen at a little deeper scale. I think you you may have a potentially a more uh potentially a more A way of seeing reality. Yeah potentially a slower uh Earth connect connecting to earth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know someone else who a good friend who just went to india for like A month and stayed away from the standard academic and fluid convalescent bubble and social bubble. Yeah. Yeah all that yeah And even if you just go for a month. Yeah and come back I think it'll be quite an enriching experience for you. It also depends on what you do Oh, yeah, totally. You just go and hang out internet cafes on social media. It's not what is that? Uh-huh, right, but um Okay, how about What would you say is the central guiding principle of your life? um stay relevant As in staying relevant so You stay relevant for yourself or for society to see you Ask someone that is a beacon at the edge Both uh both are relevant or like some some someone to pay attention or or good things will happen if if say If you pay a little bit more attention to x or even Give them resources and see what what x does makes use with those resources Interesting. I feel similarly about that too. Yeah, some people think I can begin at Optimal resource allocator given my huge knowledge base And also like sometimes insane memory of certain people And What do you what do you take of the uh ethical Quadries that civilization is facing with exponential technology and geopolitics? um State dependent. I do think um A lot of these are like fundamentally confused I think people don't exactly have a clear precise Understanding of what consent means or what their long-term preferences really are and I'm not sure if a lot of people even capable of formulating these because it takes massive imagination to formulate these and especially in the world that Turns out difference from one that you have any imagination to perceive whatsoever Oh, oh, that's good. So it's as though We've had the imagination kind of sucked out of us due to the conformity that's occurring in many ways But that imagination is so crucial for us to envision a world that can have these ethical quadries more easily Oh, yeah, for example, look what happened to indian tribes after the after the europeans invaded their lands The question is are you gonna state your old ways or are you gonna adjust to their ways? Of course It's more complicated than that because some of them do encounter legitimate discrimination when trying to adopt to white ways But in general, if you're if you want to if you want to stay robust yourself it's probably better to accept what change happens and Make the best out of it and not hold to your identity Yeah Very interesting alex So do you have another Thought that comes to mind that you think would be important to share in this conversation that we're having Um Let me think here I had a lot of thoughts the other day, but my mind got wiped earlier today um Yeah, I mean I installed my air pollution meter and holy shit And I really need to take the alex has been obsessing over his air pollution. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually a very yellow in here It's green in here. I bought it three months ago and for whatever reason I didn't even try to start using it until recently and this is like a massive failure mode in my part um There's also just a massive fail in my part because you know those air scenes have 30 day return periods. So really um If you're feeling stuff stuffy or whatever just get one of those because those are the scenes that improve quality of life more than anything else Actually and your lived experience and your lived experience alex brings up a very good point there is that we We we we only really read rarely about these like oh the you know parts per million of some particulate in Mumbai or Beijing this is extremely high and Or in the bay area when we had the fire and then la and whatnot. Yeah There was a high amount of particulate that we shouldn't be inhaling and whatnot But in our living spaces in these homes That the air quality inside of a home is much different than outside. Yeah outside you have much more fresh air than you do inside a home And especially if you're cooked if you're baked in the heat's all the way on There's people that are farting sneezing coughing like on an airplane as well the air quality on an airplane There's like these you know the air quality in a car. There's all these sort of different ways of measuring The air quality and i'm glad that you really tie in the importance of remembering that your lived experience when you're on a beach and you're inhaling Fresh from the ocean or from the sea that air You can like feel more alive. You feel a lot better And so it's important to to keep that in mind. That's a good point um, I think another um another thing that That you um, you know that you care a lot about is the optimization of learning And you know we talked about being at the edge and optimizing your own learning and other people's learnings um, what would be your recommendation to young young people and also Adults as well, but what is the what is a central principle that that people can adopt in order to optimize their learning? um, for one scene if you're going to learn about scenes I don't think of yourself as a competition to learn calculus at the earliest age possible, but rather um, the the most important things to learn first are basically health related experiential um, memorize the glycemic index food indexes of all the major foods Try to get a blood continuous blood glucose monitor to see how to respond to certain foods. Um It's like also live experience get a lux meter to figure out to To measure the light spectrum of your houses to see um And also get the fastest computer you can possible. Um Oftentimes I've learned that for example getting amazon prime is just easier. It's better to be impulsive on the scenes that um Like amazon prime that allow you to be less impulsive on other scenes because most people's attention span was just limited and um, you basically want to um, Set things up early on through free since earlier and also get to the lab will no taking devices later on so you can and also use gmail or Grab some facebook as much as possible At least this is what I do because it's those methods are just much easily searchable than later. Um aggressively archived up is on um On content you think might get deleted in five years. Um because uh, there is a lot of good stuff online that Isn't that gets deleted and it's a tragic and then people and then that's causes people to not remember what scenes were like 10 years ago. Yeah, thank goodness for the internet way back It's Underperforming what yeah, but it's so difficult to archive everything at ever that's ever been posted and collected But that brings up a good point that that that you mentioned and you mentioned a bunch of other good ones They're kind of like increase your day-to-day lived experience with your health Um, okay. Yeah, also, I know the learning rates are much faster We have to say roommates who you tolerate very well because they they don't seem the ones you You remember they remember can build up in really amazing way Especially especially like your memory human human brains are human brains That because human brains human brains remember stuff with other people and their preference is much better than they can remember say most abstract thought Because it was important to give you a context. It also allows someone if you're tired You also have someone to rely on that that you can rely on or whatever Alex this has been a pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks again for coming on to the show. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, this has been I like our conversation about optimized learning and the edge of knowledge and then working on playing the games of tennis To kind of scrape further past the edge. It's exciting stuff Thanks everyone for tuning in. We greatly appreciate it. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below Let us know what you're thinking Uh, also, we would love for you to build go create manifest your destiny into the world Yeah, so nothing about edginess I would like to mention is that I think living in places like Boston San Francisco Allow you access to a huge number of smart slash highly open people and In the in the background of knowing a huge amount of people that is the speed of your learning rate and in a really interesting way because I mean people are better at learning facts about other humans than Then they are and still learning things themselves and then you can basically get estimates rough estimates of basic even oftentimes the scenes that people say before they're about you about to partake in a project And this or the context which then allows you to form basically estimates of say The chance of succeeding and start up later on or what exactly they might be missing out Missing out before starting out of the startup Yep, the alexis point. They're so crucial You see things as a topology of competence and influence A lot of the people at the peaks of those topologies exist in metropolises like boston and san francisco and new york and la and whatnot So to go and move out to these areas and go and surround yourself with these other brilliant leaders and go and play These games of tennis at the edges with them is just going to rock you forward Yeah, basically dense survival advantage given Given given a dense social environment, especially when you are in them when you're when you're super young and grow with them Oh, gosh, you're getting in there when you're young 16 18 great ages to get in Um, even earlier is better even at 12. Yeah, get in there young. You get in there young and start tinkering start tinkering Much love go and build the future manifest your destiny into the world everyone. We'll see you soon. Peace. Okay Bye