So is everyone ready? I'd like to call to order the South Burlington City Council meeting of Monday, March 20, 2023, and we'll begin with the Pledge of Allegiance. And Tyler, you want to start that? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Our second item is instructions on exiting the building and review of technology options. Thank you. So for those in the audience, you can go out the rear of the auditorium on the left or right and then turn left or right and go outside. For those participating remotely, thank you for joining us. If you would like to make comment during any agenda item, please turn your camera on and the chair will call on you or you can indicate your interest in making comment in the chat and I will pass your name to the chair. We are not monitoring the chat for content. Thank you. Item three is the agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions, or changes in the order of the agenda? Please don't add anything. It's long. Okay. Seeing none, are there comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda? Rosanne. Rosanne. Yes. May I be the first to wish you a happy spring? Thank you. Remember the public and to welcome the two new counselors, Tyler and Andrew. I hope your time on the council is productive. I wanna talk to the council about a city center because I was speaking to a friend and heard some disturbing news. I have to admit I'm not been paying a lot of attention to it. But I know many, well, I know some of you in the city council participated when we did the visioning quite a few years ago. And overwhelmingly the residents wanted to have a city center that looked like Vermont with a center area green surrounded by housing and shops and city offices, et cetera. That didn't happen. And it was a crushing blow to many of us. But I just learned that even the little patch of green that we thought maybe would be used in substitute for the city, the green is no longer going to happen. And I hope the information I got was wrong. But if it was not, I think that is a tragedy. We, I went through the comp plan a few minutes ago and I'm not gonna read you the citations in the comp plan. But I found at least four or five that talked about the importance of having green space and public spaces within walking distance. And I remember Paul Connor used to say, the goal was to have a little park area or a green space within a certain mile of all residents. And that South Burlington did not have that. We just added, and you know better than I, hundreds of new residents in the city center area and they're not going to have access to green space if what I've been told is accurate. That is horrible. There are a lot of children, their children are at the school, their children in these housing areas and they won't have a green grass to run on or soil to play around in and walk under trees and stuff. So if the information I got was correct, could it please be changed? I don't think you've, we've paved over the whole area in the city center, but what we haven't paid yet, I really implore this city council to save it as green space. We're gonna need all the green space we can get, but there are so many people there that could walk to it if you had it. Otherwise they're gonna have to get in a car and drive to a patch green. Rosanne, I'm not clear about what green space was planned and what you believe or were told was gonna be paved over or built upon. I'm not sure where you mean, because we still have the park. So what was the other space? Well, I mean, originally, well, you remember Helen, you were there and Megan were there. Yeah, we wanted to have a green. Yeah, yeah. Right, and it's gonna be built, the housing and the shops and the city offices were going to be built around a big green space. Remember we were talking about- So it's not green now. I thought you were referring to some green space now, but okay, I understand what you're saying. Well, the reason I say this is that a friend told me she had asked, she brought this question up during some of the top plan discussions because people who were at that meeting, and I don't know if any of the city councilors were there, but people who are living in the homes in city center were talking about the children running up and down the hallways and stuff, because there's no outside areas for them to play in. And this person asked about what they're going to be, a green area park where the children go to. And the answer, I think from Alana was no, there wasn't going to be a park area in city center. So, you know, I'm sorry, I'm getting the second hand. So apologies if that is incorrect, but that is what was said at a city meeting that there was no green, there was not gonna be a park in city center. Not as was envisioned. I think that is accurate information. Remember the 3D graphic video flyover that they did initially included a square of open grass where they could have a farmer's market or whatever it was, but it was open. That was in that original original, it was in the second video that came after wanting to put the arena on top of the school, right? This was the second video that didn't have that that just showed all this area with streets and buildings. Right. And that was just a facet of that video. Right. Well, I don't know what the plan is going forward, but I sure hope there's a large area of park green space for people that live in that area to enjoy. And if not, put it back in there. I mean, if nothing, use the ARPA funds. You know, use the money, please don't pay it over a Hubbard. As I've been told, there's still a plan to put pavement on the Hubbard trail. I mean, that money could be better spent by keeping the vegetation and creating a park in city center. Okay, gotcha. I mean, I know we can't, I mean, this is not warned, but I really hope this maybe gets on a city council meeting so you can discuss this. Okay. I think our city manager just has a couple of comments that might help. So Rosanne, I'm not sure the space you're talking about now being paved over that wasn't going to be, but there is Goose Park right across from the CHT building. And with the Tiff Bonn vote that was passed on town meeting day, there will be a boardwalk between Goose Park and city center park, which now you have to walk all the way around to go through, but you'll be able to cut right through Goose Park now to go to that beautiful downtown urban park with a playground. So that is the green space that's currently planned. The remainder of the land in city center at this point is privately owned. So there isn't other than those two parks that are right downtown. That is the rest will be developed, assuming no other land transfers happen. Okay. Well, thank you. And maybe we can continue discussion in another time about this. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any other individuals or residents who would like to make a comment on something not on the agenda? Okay. I don't see any. So we will move on to councilor's announcements and reports on committee assignments and city manager's report. Andrew, do you have anything to report? Okay. You haven't been assigned any committees yet. Okay. Tim. But you attended a meeting today, right? For the fire department? I did. Okay. Which I did too. I also attended the listening meeting about the comprehensive plan for affordable housing on Wednesday night in person. And I listened in on the subsequent night for the Southwest neighborhood meeting. That's all. Okay. Megan? Yeah. Is it too late for me to add something to the agenda? I really apologize. No, since you weren't here. Okay. I was hoping to have a discussion with our city attorney prior to item number eight, approve a resolution outlining the council's position on the Omnibus housing bill before the legislature. And it's because I have a question pertaining to the city's liability that he, Jesse had put me in touch with Colin, and he said that he'd be happy to meet with us to talk about it. Is he still in the building? I believe he is still here. Okay. So can we add that? Sure. Do you want to add it sooner than later so he doesn't have to stay or does he have to stay for the end? Well, this is before, between seven and eight, you say? It's, yeah, between seven and eight. So it's between seven and seven. So that's, yeah. Okay, why don't we add that? Thank you. Thank you. And then, I'm sorry. Can you motion to amend the agenda and approve it? So I would like to move to amend the agenda in order to add seven, or seven A. Seven A, an executive session for a privileged attorney client. I found that privileged. Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay, so that'll be an executive session. So, okay, yeah. And then, just to go on with Tim's discussion of the previous meetings, first of all, I'm sorry I couldn't make it for this lunchtime meeting with the strategic visioning discussion for the firefighters. I had to go to another meeting at work. And I did want to also say that I did attend the affordable housing committee hosted session for the comprehensive plan, the community discussion. And Roseanne, what you heard was accurate. There was concern about the Garden Street Apartments. And so I would hope that we could perhaps discuss that under other business if we're not too tired or if in the future we could have that on an agenda for us to discuss what's happening there because residents did come forward and speak very frankly about the situation in that building. And I think that we need to hear about it and having that in an open session meeting is the only way for us to do that. So I'd like us to kind of talk about that. Okay. Tyler? I attended this afternoon's meeting with the Chief Locke and spent a lot of time on the plane listening to the recaps of Thursdays, was it Wednesdays or Thursdays meeting about affordable housing? Wednesday. Was it Wednesday? And the same discussion from, excuse me, regarding the comprehensive plan that occurred on the eighth regarding, excuse me, from the Southeast Quadrant discussion. So attended by those was really impressed by Wednesday's turnout. It was pretty remarkable and encouraging to see so many folks speaking so passionately. Great. Okay. I attended the Wednesday, March 15th groundbreaking for Catamount Run next door and that was nice. It was great. And then attended a luncheon afterwards and had I think some very good conversations with UVM officials and encouraged them to share with us what their future priorities and plans are so that we could in fact have a dialogue with them ahead of time and not just have it kind of launched on us or after the fact of all their decision-making and that seemed to meet with agreement. So it was good, good conversation. One of the things that I think was kind of interesting to me because I hadn't really thought about the two housing developments that UVM is participating in this Catamount Run and then UVM Medical Center with the other one. I can't remember what the name of that is. Does it have a name? But the comment was that our city center will have a really young professional community, a pretty big one here between both those developments and I think that will add real vibrancy to our downtown. And I thought that was kind of interesting. I hadn't really thought of it in that context but that's I think a positive thing for our community and certainly for the downtown. Can I ask a couple of questions? Oh, and I went to the meeting too for the, it wasn't really a discussion. It was a little, I thought it was gonna be a discussion and it was really getting points of, our points of view in a written form that was kind of interesting. I'm looking forward to what they end up with. Yeah. And I don't know if you know the answer to this Helen but is this gonna be a UVM owned building or a UVM managed building? Neither, neither. They are contributing $20 million I believe which will be paid back to them over time. I think over 10 years is what they are envisioning. So what they are doing is acting as an investor. With I think the quid pro quo is they will have first dibs on the apartments of which there are three sizes. There's studio one bedroom and two bedroom. And then I guess if there aren't enough UVM graduate students and faculty you wanna live there then it is opened up to the general public at market rate. And then in 10 years they no longer own it or they don't own it now. Their money will be returned. And they'll no longer have that privilege of having it only open to the faculty and students. Well that I don't know. After 10 years. Maybe Jessie does. I think that's yet to be determined. How Helen explains is absolutely right. They're initial investors in the project. So they are contributing that initial capital that gives them that first rate of access. I think the idea is to demonstrate to the UVM community that this is a good housing model for them as opposed to being owners of the buildings. And my guess is that if it works well they may continue to be in some kind of financial seat into the future beyond that 10 years. But right now this investment is for that 10 year period. But the buildings are privately owned. They're privately managed. They're fully on the tax rate. Their market rate units. So if UVM doesn't exercise an option on any unit it goes out to the rental market. But the rate that the UVM students or faculty will pay will be market rate. There isn't a discount because they're from UVM. I'm just gonna voice a concern that has been brought up to me personally not only on Facebook but that people are, and I'm not here to provide a number or say that there's any kind of massive opinion that I'm bringing forward. But just to express it publicly for them, as I said I would, that there is some disappointment in the architectural style of the buildings here on Market Street and on Garden Street. People who were personally in touch with me brought up Winooski as a very attractive downtown because of the materials, the building materials and which are primarily brick in Winooski. And so I just wanted to share their views publicly in case it falls on anybody's ears that perhaps some thought could be, the concern is and I believe that it is a concern that we need to listen to is that they invested in this through their votes and through their hopes and dreams and their visioning as well as some of their tax dollars as well, right? And it's not turning out necessarily the way they would have liked and that's a disappointment to hear I think for all of us, right? So I just wanted to pass that forward to the public realm and as I said I would. Yeah, well I think finding the perfect architectural style that pleases everyone is now impossible to achieve, but I understand. I think I had visioned things to be a little bit different and I also understand that you look around any community and the buildings that were built 15 years ago look very different than the ones that are being built now and styles change and I guess architects who work with larger buildings kind of go through phases and they found a style that they like here and I think except for this building because we had a different architect, it does become, I would agree a little redundant and not exactly what I had envisioned but I still think it'll be a great downtown. Did we have any control over what the facade looks like? Not the council. But would the DRB even have any voice in the facade? Well, it depends on what the regulations are for things like glazing, amount of glazing at what level but the form-based code I think generally just lays out a basic, not an architecture but you have to have these elements. It's elements, right? It's elements and after that and what you see out there that's, and I've seen it in other towns in upstate New York and in Maine and in Massachusetts as you see four or five story buildings, it looks like they were all designed by chat GPT. It's one source, one source. It's like, I don't know if the architects are just plugging in some things and it pops out. Use these four different types of siding elements and aluminum, a little bit of brick, a little hardy backer and something else and change these colors and then rubber stamp it all the way down the street. That's really unfortunate. I mean, I'm sure H.R. Richardson is rolling over in his grave right now but he's been doing that for years. But the goal as I recall and it is in the rules is to have variety of building styles and so for them all to look alike, I think that's something the DRB could weigh in on because that is in our rule as well as high quality materials and then having a textured facade, not having just a sheer face, but having, you know how they're broken into, you know, various different volumes and... I guess I'm wondering is there an opportunity to update the form-based code for the newer buildings that have yet to be built? Well, the picture is already in the lot so I don't know. Did you mean that? But there are a few more buildings, right, that we will anticipate. Well, I would just suggest as we are in council reports right now that this is a really important topic. There's been a lot of chatter about it before coming out and coming out and coming if we want to warn this as an agenda item so people can come and hear the discussion. We can certainly do that at a future meeting. There are lots of options you could do. You could acquire land, you could change the form-based code zoning but those would require lots of activity. So if you would like a presentation on some of those things, we're happy to do that but we have a big agenda. We do tonight so if that's something you would like to have as a conversation in the future, put it, you know, let us know and we can look at the future agendas on the, I see a nod of the head. That's two of us, great. I would roll this into the early section. Okay, maybe sort of an update on what city center is looking like and okay, good enough. City managers report. Thank you. So writing that down so I know what to do in the future. So a couple of updates for me. Welcome, Councillor Chalmick to your first official meeting. It's great to have you. Late breaking news for you all tomorrow morning at 9.30 the traffic light at Williston and Hinesburg Road is gonna go down for about 15 minutes. We have to do some maintenance repair on that light. There will be flaggers and traffic directors out there, so hopefully it won't cost too much of a delay. Would you mention intersection again? The Williston and Hinesburg Road. So Gracie's? Gracie's, yep. How long? 15 minutes. Okay, thank you. 9.30. 9.30. Why don't you do it at 7.30 AM? Yeah. We're trying. Thank you to those who are able to come to the fire strategic planning process this afternoon. It's really great to see this kind of intentional conversation happening among our team. And to your point about the conversation this was really meant to get, a process meant to collect data that would then inform some planning that will take place over the next couple of days.  So thank you for participating in that. In case folks didn't see in city news this week the police department deployed our first hybrid police cruisers. They are out on the road and are outfitted with the Axion dash cam technology that now links to our body warm cameras, which is great. April 3rd, CSWD, the Chinden County Solid Waste District administrative offices are moving into 19 Gregory Drive. That is our police department, the second floor upstairs. So that has all happening. We're really excited to welcome that governmental partner into that space. Also on Monday, April 3rd, the library will be closed that day for the full day. The library staff are all going to the Vermont library conference so that Monday no library service. And then just a quick look ahead for the council for the April 3rd council meeting, CSWD and VTANG will both be here to give presentations. We're gonna start talking about our process to appoint a new city clerk. We're gonna do the council liaison committee appointments and we are bringing you a presentation on the rental ordinance to make sure we're kind of going in the same direction that you are intending. So those are the updates from me, thanks. Can I just ask for the committee assignments for the liaison? It would be, I think nice and helpful if committee member or council members would let Jesse and me or me know what committees you might like to be a liaison with, maybe ones that you are tired of doing and wanna switch. And remember, it's not just the committees but we have town meeting TV, we have the Green Mountain Transit, we have, what else do we have? Oh, the airport commission. I know there's probably something else that I'm... I can circulate the list. But yes, so think about what you might like to serve on and let us know and then we can hopefully assign them to people and we can draw straws for what nobody wants. Thank you. All of them are very important. They are and they're all important and interesting. Helen's the thought that what each of us sit on several, is that like? Yes. Was it two, three, like four, what is it? Six. No, I agree. Six, yeah. I think new members get up six and... New members have to ease in. Helen gets to sail. She has six, we don't all need six. I do almost, you do, Helen. Jesse, do you have a list? I'll circulate a list, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay, moving on to the consent agenda, we have six items, the disbursements, a sub, approving a sub-grant agreement between the city of South Burlington and Champlain Housing Trust awarding 300,000 of ARPA dollars to fund the renovation and conversion of the former Hoham Motel, adopt the local emergency management plan, approve a resolution in support of utility art on Shelburne Road and Hinesburg Road. Receive the February 2020, 23 financials, and lastly, approve the updated purchasing policy. So I'll move that we approve, but I have a question. Okay. In same second. All right, so let's take these questions first. So I was just curious to see that Tom Hubbard was a contractor that we paid for consulting. I was curious what he was consulting the city on. Yeah, great question. So he, after Andrew Bulldog left, as we were appointing Martham and Char, finance director, we entered into independent contractor contract with Tom to come back and provide technical assistance on to ease the transition. So things like the pension advisory committee, SCI, CS1 that administer our retirement benefit plans, things like that that after Andrew left, nobody on staff had had experience working on. So we have a by the hour contract with him. So it's continuing. It's open ended if we need to pull him back, but with Martham in her role now, and with Daisy in her role now having spent some time with him in the last couple of months, I don't anticipate that we'll continue many hours of that. So he's been training too. He's been training. He's been training the staff. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Good. And Andrew, did you have a question? I do have a few. Okay. Okay. So, and I'm not sure if all these are appropriate. Can you speak? I'm not sure all these are appropriate for the consent agenda. So if not, you'll let me know. Okay. So the Ford interceptor, is that the new hybrid car that's in the disbursements? And then I also noticed something new car Ford 150. I guess we purchased another pickup truck. Is that right? Just a pickup truck. Public works purchased a new pickup truck. So do we have a policy around purchasing electric vehicles? No, we have a climate action plan that directs us to whenever we are able to do it. And did we consider? We did. And we decided not to. We did. Okay. So we can maybe table that for another day. I'm curious around that set of discussions. Okay. I will note that there are at least two police departments in Vermont that have electric vehicles as, I mean, hybrid's great, but it's, you know, and I applaud the police department for doing that, but it's kind of like yesterday's technology, right? So. Then the purchasing policy. Does the city have an environmental, like an EPP or green purchase policy? No. And have we considered having a policy like that? I haven't since my time here. Okay. So we used to have one in the town I came from actually drafted it. And, you know, it requires use a pallet to kind of look at different purchasing decisions across the spectrum of things. And just probably does from detergents and cleaners to appliances to cruisers to paper to play like the whole thing, right? And ensure that when those decisions are made, they're made with, you know, environmental lens, the conservation lens. And so perhaps we can take that up as well on a future agenda, you know, what that will look like. And should we, should we do that? Because I think it's actually really important for the, it's a palatial leadership to the community, right? If we can't do it, then it's hard to ask other people to do it. Okay. The emergency management plan, you may not know this, but so as I walked around, more than one, quite a few people asked about whether the city is prepared if an F-35 crashes, right? And do we have like the hazmat suits and the things that we would need really to protect the warpers, right? If that happens, apparently it's a very hazardous thing. And I didn't see that in the emergency management plan. So that's just a question. Chief Locke. Oh, I'm sorry. We went over all this back in 2017. And we had a very clear signal from the fire chief at that time that between their training and their equipment that they were satisfied that they had what it took to respond to any type of an incident that considered an F-35. Because the composites involved in there were pretty much the same as the composites involved in any, you know, large aircraft that would be involved in a situation like that. So that was the signal we got then. I don't know if anybody recalls that, but. Yeah. Chief Locke, I recall that. Would you like to respond as well, chief? Good evening. My apologies for not being in person. I just, I would agree that was the case. And still we would say the case today, as well as our mutual aid agreements and partnership with both state and federal resources. We do not see this as any substantially different hazard. And also, you know, let's tell you that that document is a very high-level document that leads us through the long-term or management of those types of events. So it's not necessarily specific to a given hazard, but more of an all-hazards approach that can be applied to, that that document can be applied to. Okay. Thank you. So one last thing. So I did look at all the line items in the disbursements and the financials. And Frank, it's really impossible for me sitting here. I don't know if other folks to make any kind of reason judgment about whether those line items are appropriate and reasonable and necessary. In the disbursement. Yeah. I mean, it just goes on for pages and pages, right? Yeah. And I guess the question is, what is the process, I guess, Jesse, what the city uses to ensure that each of those items is reasonable, appropriate, necessary? So I'd be happy to sit with you, Andrew, and our finance director and walk through all of these processes. So there are a number of layers. So individual department heads have a certain spending authority, any spending authority over that level comes to the finance director or ultimately me. All invoices are reviewed by the relevant department head and the finance director who's also serves as the city treasurer that you appoint. So every invoice is reviewed for that, reviewed for spending category, amount, contracted, meaning contract requirements, et cetera. And then ultimately it comes to you. I will say that I will, I would absolutely agree with you that that report is not great in terms of providing detail. One of the things that I hope we can work on, I will be honest, this is the first finance policy that we have brought to you during my tenure. We have not regularly reviewed our finance policies. It's one of the priorities of our current finance director. And you will be seeing many of those come back before you. Also with the government operations implementation plan of the climate action plan, we hope to focus on a lot of the other things you are looking at. The challenge with the warrant is we use a very old NEMRIC finance tool right now that has almost no ability to individualize or add fields. It's a very old almost DOS based system. So part of the innovation we will be looking at locally or internally in the next months and years is updating that finance system so we can have more detailed reports with more transparency to the community. But ultimately the checks and balances are department head, finance director, city treasurer, me and then you looking at those things and finding out. Thank you for the opportunity to meet. I would definitely like to do it. Just one quick follow up. So, you know, in my job I'm about to retire from every two years and the CFO would come to us and say, cut 5% of your budget, right? There's gotta be some stuff that grew up over the past couple of years that we can cut, right? And this would be like a regular thing, right? Look at your budget and tell me what we don't need anymore, right? And we'd all say, oh, we need everything. But then at the end of the day, right? A month later, we'd come up with a budget that we found 5% of the cut. Does the city do anything like that? Like periodically look at the disbursements, look at the budget and say, you know, let's do a review and see where we can trim things. Well, I would argue we do that every year with our annual budgeting process. You know, the council typically sets either a service delivery goal or a tax rate goal, which gives us usually pretty tight per annumers that we need to think about cutting just to make current operations continue with the cost of colas and stabs and inflation and whatnot. So certainly every year, since I've been here, the leadership team has gone through that process to say given the tax rate goals and tax sensitivity to affordability in the community, how do we bring the most responsible budget forward? While I've been here, we have not done the everybody cut across 5% across the board and let us know what that means in a service area like ours. And I would be interested to have a further conversation with you about this. That doesn't always work as much because we are so people heavy. So it means we just do everything a little worse as opposed to saying what is the service area that we need to eliminate? Because that's really what it would come down to. What do we stop doing? What is the thing we stop providing our residents? So to me, that's a much more useful conversation than just everyone do as much or more with less. But happy to talk to you more about any of that. Okay. Tim, did you have a question also? I had just two, one question about the warrants. The Champlain Water District antenna tower fee, does anybody that's here tonight know what that's for? I thought that we put that tower up together, you know, the, is there a chief there? Chief Locke, can you answer that? So I believe, and I did not see the bill come through, but I do believe that maybe rent that we pay to have our transfer equipment on top of there. I believe that's true. So we rent space. We rent space from that tower, but so was the bond issue, a Champlain Water District bond issue for that tower, or was it a South Burlington, or was it a combined, it was like $1.7 million for that? I think so. Yeah. We'll look into that and get back to you. Okay, I'm just curious, because I, you know. All right, thanks. And the other thing was, if you can support the number D item for the utility box art, I personally would appreciate it. And so would somebody I know very well back at home, my wife, Catherine O'Brien, Barrett, thank you. And I just. Which I would say there's no money changing hands. There's no money. There's no conflict of interest. And it just a little bit of context for this is that in the past, my wife has applied for and filled out V-trans permits, like the murals that are underneath 189 on Farrell Street. Each of those had its own permit. The utility boxes didn't really require a permit in general. Then they changed their process because I think there's been an interest around the state in decorating some of the V-trans equipment. And so they're like, well, we should have a process for doing for today. So they implemented a new layer of paper to apply. And after my wife's gone like for three months, trying to get down all the details in the workflow for this thing, the lady that's in charge of it is changing jobs. So. Oh no. But this will help to establish the city's acknowledgement of this project and assist in that permit process. So thank you very much. Okay. Any further discussion? Are you ready for the vote? All in favor of the consent agenda as presented, signify by saying aye. Aye. So the motion passes. Can I say one thing on the consent agenda? So I'm fast-checking a little to council orientation here for a sec, but part of obviously a lot of the things that are on the consent agenda are your fiduciary oversight. I know you are very busy people on reading things on the fly. You are completely within your rights to send us questions in advance over the weekend or on Monday if you have questions on the consent agenda and you can still ask them in public and we will answer them transparently in public. But it gives us a little heads up about what to be prepared for so we can hold your trust and the community's trust. Thanks. Okay. Moving on to item seven, approve the resolution declaring April 2023, Fair Housing Month. And it's offered by the Affordable Housing Committee. Welcome. Thank you for this opportunity. This is an item that was on our FY23 work plan. We wanted to get this in for 2022, but it was a busy schedule. So thank you for hearing this. The purpose for adopting a Fair Housing Month resolution is largely, it's kind of a statement of values. In the state of Vermont, it was adopted at a state level. And it's also celebrating the Fair Housing Act from 1968. And it's a great document that a work group put together as part of the Affordable Housing Committee and voted on as a group. This is intended to coordinate with future efforts in the city for outreach to help residents who may be experiencing and increase awareness for housing discrimination. Some of those things might include trying to rent an apartment, purchase a home, get a mortgage, obtain housing insurance, seek housing assistance or any other housing related activities. So when we talk about these protected classes, yes, there's some state values, but how can we make a difference at a local level to help increase that awareness? So for example, we'll be working with the library for hosting another book group as well as hosting some material at the library, putting some material both on the website and in city news. And we hope to build upon that in the future. So this is one of those incremental steps that you can build the foundation on going forward. If there's any questions regarding the resolution, be happy to answer those. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any questions or comments? Andrew. Just wondering in the, I think this is great. I fully support this, Chris. Thank you. In the final paragraph, be it resolved, would it be okay to adjust the words where it says continue our efforts to say ensure fair housing, rather than eliminate housing discrimination? It kind of implies that we discriminate today and understand we need to do more to ensure fair housing, but I'm not sure we should be implying that we as a community today discriminate, which I guess it kind of implies that a little bit. Yeah, and I don't think it was meant as an implication that the city discriminates, but people who reside within the city, maybe it's a landlord who denies that housing to somebody, maybe it's a mortgage lender who denies that mortgage application. Those transactions happen today. We live in a human society where the discrimination happens and it often goes unreported. So I think the spirit of what the Affordable Housing Committee was advocating for is what is the stronger position that would provide greater protection to its residents. And if it's, I think it's a value of the city and its residents that we're looking to impart. So I'll defer to the committee to take action, but efforts to eliminate was the agreed upon language. It wasn't a shot at the city or anything. I'll just, I want to thank you. I did read this and thank you for giving me the opportunity as your liaison to read it. And I have heard stories about rental properties where there is potentially some discrimination. So I don't think it's necessarily a city. I didn't take it as that too. I took it more as we need to just remain vigilant. And, you know, we all have our biases and I have heard of instances where it actually comes through in housing situations. Okay, are you satisfied? All right, any other comments? All right, are you ready for the vote? Oh, no, we need a motion. I'm sorry to approve this, I guess.  I'll motion to approve city March as fair housing, what's the language, fair housing awareness? Second. Okay, any further discussion? All in favor, signified by saying aye. Aye. And so the resolution is passed. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks, Chris. So now we need a motion to go into executive session for the, or discuss, oh, I'm sorry. So I'd like to move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services to the council would clearly place this public body at a substantial disadvantage. I'll second. All in favor. Aye. Aye. And so I now move to the board, enter into executive session for the purpose of confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services to the council, inviting in Jesse Baker and Colin McNeil. I'll second. Could we invite Paul Conner to, is that all right? Yes. I could amend that second motion to include Paul Conner to the executive. In the council's position on the omnibus housing bill for the legislature. And we have two copies. So I provided at your table, two different copies of an open letter to the legislature. One is linked off of our council agenda. Your consideration. Okay. All right. I can give you mine. Okay. Do you want to talk about this? I'm looking. I do have a copy of it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Jesse, which is which? To begin is the one that's linked off the agenda. The one that starts with South Burlington-Isbury is the new one. Okay. Andrew made some of the changes to the one that was linked. So do you want to just quickly, can you just point them out? So anyone who's read the first one might understand? What I did was maybe just kind of reorganize a bit and use mostly what Megan wrote. And I think Megan, you were happy with the redraft? Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, then let's just deal with that one then. Yeah. It's the author's happy. I'm happy. So do you want to talk about it a little bit? Oh, sure. Well, our city planner, director of zoning and planning, Paul Conner wrote, I thought a very helpful letter to the committee of natural resources and energy in the state Senate that was not necessarily taken up by them and meaning they didn't read it perhaps. I don't know, but in any case, they did not make any of the changes that he requested. And the requests were specifically asked for by the main sponsor of the S100 bill, which is Senator Ram Hinsdale. And I communicated that to Senate Pro Tem Phil Baruth this morning. And so he was going to just circle back to them and make sure that they saw Paul's letter. But at the same time, I thought it was important for us to bring this letter to the next committee's attention. And that would be the House Committee on the Environment, which I learned this morning from Senate Pro Tem Baruth. So just simply alerting them to the letter, alerting them to the concerns that Paul very clearly laid out in as Senator Ram Hinsdale requested, planning language and really reiterate just the general rationale that goes into our planners' recommendations based on our city goals. So I think that the reworking of the letter very nicely frames those general goals in the initial paragraph. The second paragraph gives some background as to how we are also dealing with some fiscal challenges and that growth comes at a cost that we are struggling with as a council in order to keep within people's ability to pay and that by putting that responsibility on our local government, the voters, you can hold the city accountable for the future development of the city, which we thought was a really important tenet of democracy, an American-style democracy. And we also give some in the third paragraph, again referring to the new letter, but it's in the original letter talking a little bit about the average cost of buying a home here, but also what our current inventory is, including how many perpetually affordable homes we have. In the fourth paragraph, again, this is taken from the original. We talk about two existing programs that we have in our city, the one that governs plan unit developments and the other, the transfer of development rights and how they in fact go beyond the bill's goals. And so we are meeting the goals and actually going beyond them with an eye of course to conservation as well, which should be a goal that the state holds as well.  So that is reiterated very clearly and succinctly in the fifth, and this is a new paragraph that Andrew drafted with regard to the state's energy code and accompanying climate goals. The South Brunswick City Council recently passed an ordinance that regulates fuel sources. I guess that came from the original, with an exception for affordability and we'll be exploring other regulations. But what Andrew then went on to say was, as currently proposed, we are concerned that S100 could undermine all of these initiatives. And then he goes on to, I think perhaps more succinctly summarize what Paul included in his letter to them, to the Natural Resources and Energy Committee in the Senate. So my hope is that this could go to the House Committee for the environment, as well as housing and general affairs and military. I would also suggest that we send this as a commentary to VT Digger. I think it's important for people to know that this is something that we see of concern to the whole state, that this is something that deserves to be really more broadly discussed, not just in the halls of Montpelier. This is a democratic issue. It has to do with both local control as well as state policy. So those are my suggestions. Okay. And I thank Andrew for doing the wordsmithing. Right. Okay, is there any discussion or is there a motion to do just that, adopt this open letter as a reflection of this council's feelings and send to the legislature and potentially VT Digger? I'll move that. Is there a second? I'll second. Is there any discussion? Thank you for writing this. I think this explicitly shares our concerns and I had a conversation with Senator Rob Hinsdale as well and said that we were not in agreement with large parts of S100. And I hope that this makes it known as well. I like to think of South Berlin as a good example in the state, right? Of a community that works really hard with its volunteer planning commission and with a local CRPC to create regulations that manage the land in the city to everybody's advantage, right? And whether that be commercial or housing or nature, but we have the correct focus and I think we've done a lot of hard work since we went into IZ a few years ago. And we also are growing the number of units and the density in the area where it should be grown. And we've made a big effort to not grow it where it shouldn't be grown. So it really just irks me that S100 wants to override the local control that we worked so hard to craft over the last few years. And so I agree that this letter addresses those. I have little hope that anybody in Montpelier will hear this at all and will pay any attention because it seems like they're behind a huge steamroller and they're willing to press over whatever it is. But we have to do something, so. Okay, other comments? Tyler? Yeah, this is not an easy one for me for a number of reasons. The largest of which is that I really, truly do appreciate all the hard work that went into the LDRs and a lot of which was done by a number of folks here. And I am appreciative of that and I'm grateful for it and I think a lot of it is important and I agree with and I think some of you know that some of it I don't, but that's irrelevant. I would like to hear what you don't agree with. Well, I struggle with in the meeting that was held this past Wednesday, we had a remarkable turnout and I heard, over the course of 90 minutes, I heard a number of residents speak about how our dire need for more housing and our dire need for different types of housing and for even when it was affordable housing to ensure that it was built and designed in such a way that gave kids opportunities to recreate that wasn't done in a fashion where it was inadvertently. And these are my words, not theirs, but inadvertently discriminatory or inadvertently that it didn't create other equity issues from a socioeconomic diversity standpoint. And I, for 90 minutes, I heard folks speak about these concerns very passionately. I did not hear a corresponding desire or a corresponding support for preservation and conservation. Where were those children play? You just said that they needed more open space. That's what rules specifically. I struggle with particularly with if we are going to meet our affordable housing needs by more apartment style dwellings, I don't think that that serves them well. And I think that was heard very clearly or spoken very eloquently during the meeting the other night. And if we restrict development to portions of the city where that's really realistically the only feasible way that we can achieve our density aims, I have concerns about that. I also have concerns from a socioeconomic perspective that if we restrict development to certain areas of the city and those children are only allowed to go to certain schools about what that will mean for equity within our schools. Already in Chamberlain, it's interesting. In my son's class, excuse me, when my son was attending Chamberlain there were only four other students, not in his class, but in the school that played organized sports. Contrast that to Central where you have dozens, dozens and upon dozens of kids who all play, have the opportunity to play organized sports. It was just, it's not analogous, but it was a data point. And I'm concerned that if we restrict or promote new development and density in certain areas of the city and we also have affordability aims piled on top, layered on top of that, that could inadvertently create situations where certain schools have a greater concentration of the haves and certain schools have higher concentrations of the have-nots. I don't think any of this is intentional. And I think there are ways that it can perhaps be mitigated, but these are my concerns and this is what I heard from the conversations that I had the privilege of being a part of or had the opportunity to listen to over the course of the last couple of weeks. So I see while the state's bill is far from perfect and while I do not want to see municipal control taken away from the cities and from our community, I'm in a unique position where I feel as though the aims of the omnibus bill seem to more closely align with what I've heard over the course of the last couple of weeks. I don't know how to feel about that. Could perhaps I help you just understand a couple of things based on my understanding of our rules which have inclusionary zoning throughout the city. So any families that would move into affordable housing would live throughout the city. The Southeast quadrant is not closed off to that at all. There are still hundreds of homes that will be built in the Southeast quadrant just under a thousand, I believe. And as far as apartment buildings, I think that as we think about turnover, someone like me, when my children are no longer in schools and perhaps I'll no longer want to garden in my backyard, I might move into an apartment, right? So I think we have to think about housing that could also be for young professionals or students or seniors, which someday I will be. I guess I still qualify as one already. But it's not only in the way that you are, I think somewhat, perhaps out of sympathy or empathy, assigning to a certain group of people, that's not what those homes are for. And in fact, many of them being market rate will be, I think not at all what you're imagining that it's like a way to park people somewhere who can't somehow have a fifth of an acre lot like what I currently have. I think that people do desire that lifestyle at certain stages in their lives. My son, who's 24, doesn't want to have to deal with the yard. I had someone my age move away from her fifth of an acre lot because she didn't want to have to deal with the yard either. And I think that looking to this generation Z and now generation Alpha and perhaps the millennials before, many of them don't want to have to take care of the yard. So I think in fact, it gives a lot of housing opportunities to the young professionals that we want to draw to our businesses here, including beta, include all of the logic that we have all the buzz about, but also others. And so I see it actually also as an economic tool, because if we bring in those young professionals or if we can keep people here, we create turnover. And those young professionals that require much fewer resources than do families, they'll be providing, I would say, property taxes for us to be able to pay for the schools for all of the children that will be living throughout the city, regardless of income level. And that's what those land development regulations are designed to do in fact, is to create more heterogeneous housing throughout the city, providing many more options for people so that people like me, when I am no longer taking care of a school-aged child, I may eventually say, I'm gonna let this house go to a nice young family and I'm gonna move down to Shelburne Road or somewhere where I feel comfortable. I've always liked to be close to the bus line. So it might be Shelburne Road or Williston or City Market, the city or Market Street, I mean. So I just wanna open your mind to people who have lots of different goals for what their housing choices will be as they get older, but also the young people and where these young people that are gonna be working in these growing industries, they're not necessarily gonna want a quarter acre lot because they don't wanna garden. They don't wanna have to trim trees. They don't wanna have to mow. They don't wanna have to plow or take out the snow out of the driveway. So I just, I think, just open your mind to that economic reality too that we have to provide this alternative housing for our businesses, but also because we need that injection of young workers for various reasons. Thank you, yes, and I don't disagree with you. I think the diversity of housing is important. I would just like to see more of it, two things. One, I'm not convinced entirely that that's why people moved to Vermont, is to have the same style of housing that they could have in a major metropolitan area and candidly be making a lot more money. And that's a concern. And two, but I do agree that having diversity of housing stock is important. Having these types of homes is important. And I would like to see increase of the more traditional type of South Burlington home and neighborhood, which is to say homes with yards, admittedly at a much higher density than our zoning has allowed for in the past. But I would like to see that and I would like to see us maximise those opportunities. That's a lot. Tyler, where do you wanna see that housing?  Hill Farm is gonna be hundreds and hundreds of units. Where else do you envision that these, eighth of an acre single family homes costing $700,000 are gonna be built to satisfy this demand that the average person can't afford and wouldn't even look at.  So I need to understand what it is about this that doesn't jive with what you know about all the development that's gonna take place over the next 15 years in those areas as well as redevelopment, as well as the rest of Catamount Run and the rest of City Center and all the dense housing that's gonna happen here to satisfy the demand from the Medical Center and from the University Graduate Housing, as well as the two summit buildings up on O'Brien which are affordable.  We have to provide units. I think we're doing a really good job on the track to provide a hell of a lot of units in South Burlington, right? Just because somebody can't buy an eighth of an acre at $240,000 like they used to at the airport because they tore down all those homes doesn't make this wrong at all. So I'm just trying to understand why you're coming from what it is you think you want because as far as I'm concerned, right? We are building in all parts of the city except where we think we shouldn't or if we do, we're building at densities that we think is appropriate for those edge rural lands. Are there in the new LDRs and forgive me because you guys are much closer to this than I am and you all had a very big hand in shaping these LDRs. So please forgive my ignorance but I'm mistaken in saying that the new LDRs still allow for homes to be built on larger lots without development provided that they're built in such a way that would allow future development to occur in the future in the Southeast quadrant. Are there still, am I correct in that statement? Could I maybe just level set here because there's a lot of focus on what happened in IZ and that's actually not really what this is about and Paul corrected from wrong but about two decades ago, this community got together collectively and identified about 1500 acres of natural resource protection areas that the community thought was important to leave in the conserved state and I would really encourage you, I'd love to take you hiking through some of those forests in the SEQ, it's all that. What IZ did was mess with that on the fringes, add a little bit here, took a little bit here but the big thing that this community did was set aside those acres two decades ago. That's what's at risk here. What's at risk is having to build five units per acre across all those forests and the adjoining kind of shrub lands that are protected as natural resource protection. Is that where you wanna build? Not across all of it, no. But you'd wanna cut down some of that forest to build single family homes? If there's going to, if the state of Vermont level, we need more housing. I would much rather candidly see as hard as it is to say, I would much rather see that housing developed and built in areas that are closer to our major metropolitan areas and I'd candidly yes, having lived here for most of my life, I would like to see that development as much as possible happen here within reason. And I feel as though, I mean, I feel as though that we have an obligation, we have a responsibility to do our part. Okay, we can probably all debate on what is within reason and I think I probably have a different definition in terms of what's reasonable growth in South Burlington. And that's, we probably can't bridge that tonight. But I do know Dr. Travead Chiles wanted to speak and if there's someone in the audience or someone else, we'll, I appreciate your candor and it helps me understand kind of where you're coming from. So thank you. So Dr. Child, do you wanna turn on your mic and your camera, please? Excuse me. We are in discussion before the vote, please. Yes, yeah, it's been moved and seconded. This is just discussion or comments. Hello. Hi there. Hi, Roseanne. No, it's Travead. Oh, it's Travead. Okay, I don't see your face, but go ahead, we can hear you, so speak, please. Thank you. Okay, I understand about authority of the housing that really is authority of the housing and the student did a presentation based on people of color, how hard it was to find a place in South Burlington. So I understand if you're not there, we don't understand. But when the student said that more families of color will not move here and then we say, well, we wanna keep them here. I'm gonna keep somebody here. We don't have a private housing, does it mean a apartment? A apartment says where we want you here, just rarely. A house says we want you here. So I understand what they're saying, and I feel the same way of nothing that we have done but people of color, for all people. So that's always gonna be an issue let's me start facing the facts. Because I thought it was not $400,000, or even $200,000 for some people. But I just wanna stick to that and try to understand. Thank you. Thank you. Rosanne. Greco wants to speak. Thank you. And Travis, I don't know, you said you were the affordable housing comp plan discussion in here. Tyler, are you referring to? Oh, Tyler, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Tyler, apologies. You said you went to the affordable housing comp plan discussion and didn't hear people talking about open space. Did you go to the natural resources comp plan discussion? Because if you did, that's where you would have heard people talking about open space as well as other comp plan discussions. So I didn't attend the affordable housing because I believe that was to be discussing about affordable housing. So, but the other thing that I hear you're saying and I too appreciate learning, how you're looking at things, but we know now that we need natural resources in order to provide us with elements of survival. I mean, come on, we come from the earth and we need ecological services or we're never going to be able to live much less withstand climate crisis impacts coming our way. So to put housing everywhere where you could put housing will destroy those natural resources which will end up hurting all of us in the long run. So what South Berlin has done through many, many compromises as Tim and Megan and we're just talking about is spent years looking at where is the appropriate place for housing and where are the natural resources that need to be protected so that we have both. If we build over natural resources, they're gone and to sacrifice nature and our ecological services for housing is just insane when you know what nature does. So I think perhaps maybe as you get more familiar with what the city has done, you're going to see where the thousands of houses have been put and what 1400 more are in the pipeline to be built in the city at the same time we're trying to protect the natural resources that will benefit all of us. So anyway, I thought I'd offer that to give you more views on that. Thank you. I think that's a good distinction in terms of who you were hearing at one meeting and then the other and they were designed. I can say I attended both meetings and Rosanna is correct. The natural resource of meeting was all about conservation and the affordable housing committee was all about housing. In the affordable housing committee meeting, they did ask, they gave residents four priorities and they asked residents to stack rank and they defined what human and I forget the exact language but they asked participants to stack rank what human, I believe it was humanized housing. Human centered was in second. And human centric was one and they asked them to define it. Fair and just was another. And environmental preservation was another. Something on those lines. And when asked to stack rank, fair and equitable housing was by far the most important factor, most important variable by a factor of over two to one. No, it was human focus was two to one and then fair and equitable and climate were kind of like second, third, close. I'm pretty sure that it was the top ranked one. Yeah. But that include open space as you heard most of the speakers say actually and cause I was there too and I, there were most people speaking about the need for more open space in our city center. And I think also, yeah. It's called the vote. Oh, yeah. But I just want to say that Tyler were not opposing the bill in this letter. We're asking them to include our city planners letter in their deliberations. That's all it's about. So I just want to make that clear that this is a way of working with the legislature and that we are not saying that we aren't going to develop anymore. We're just saying here in the last paragraph, these modifications include explicitly stating that municipalities retain the authority to define current and planned water and sewer service areas, allowing preexisting homes and areas that do not otherwise allow new development to connect to water and sewer, clarifying that a program that redistributes development within a parcel or within the community be allowed to exist. So long as conservation, sending land prohibit future residential development, providing a clear expectation that affordable housing bonuses be provided but not specify a precise method that each municipality must adopt and clarifying that municipalities can establish ordinances and regulations that are not specifically regulated by the CB. That's the commercial building energy. Yeah, what's the answer? Or the residential building energy? Standards. Standards, thank you. And this is language from our city planner that this body empowered to put on paper and to submit. And all we're doing is saying, please read our planner's letter. That's what this letter is about. Can, yes. Sorry, go ahead. I mean, I don't want this to just be an attack on your positions and feel like we have to debate. I have to scan, I enjoy the debate. We have one last person who would like to speak and then I would really like to move on. Sure. Okay, we'll have more time to talk about these issues, I think in the future. But Chris Trombly would like to make a brief statement, I hope. Yeah, and no, it's, it's brief Allen, Helen. Thank you for just for a brief comment here. Are there elements of S 100 that the city council supports? There's a lot of good in the bill. There's a lot of good money that would go, that could go towards South Brownton. And the tone of the letters seem to neg, to lean towards the negative. And there's a lot of positive and I'm concerned at a state level that this gets diluted in other elements that you haven't addressed. I really can make a different statewide and in for South Brownton. Thank you so much. Okay, thank you. I think Paul and I, when we spoke in Montpelier, made it very clear that we supported the intent of the bill and that there were lots of things that we did like. This letter really is asking the busy legislators to focus on the few areas where we think an improvement is needed and really important to this community. So if we're ready. Okay. Yes, you need to come up to the mic and identify yourself please. And make sure that you push it on so the light is bright green. It looks green, but yeah. No, you have to push it and it's bright green. Hi, my name is Michelle Corpus and I am on the Natural Resource and Conservation Committee. And I would just encourage anybody who has questions still about the city council's position to actually watch the video. It's available where Helen, and I can't remember who else spoke. Paul. Paul spoke. I think that would help people understand the position of the council. And very clearly it was stated that the council does support much of the bill 100. And just asking that we can, as a city, not be penalized for the hard work that we have done where many of us do appreciate the 1500 or so acres that have been designated for open space. Thank you. Okay. You ready for the vote? Okay, all in favor of sending this letter to the legislature and potentially Vermont Digger, signify by saying aye. Aye. Are there any opposed? Nay. Okay, so it passes four to one. Thank you. And I'm going to ask, we kind of blew past our warned public hearing in second reading of the land development regulations, LDR 2209. So we're going to jump to that. It will not take long. And I apologize for those of you sitting in the audience waiting to be interviewed. But maybe this conversation will either encourage you to want to serve or say, hell no. I don't want to get in this. So hopefully it hasn't been a waste of your time. So let's see. I guess I need a motion to have a open the public hearing. So moved. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. So we are now in a public hearing on regulation LDR 2209, which is, it's a series of minor amendments to the environmental protection standards that you've been working on for quite a while. That's correct. So super briefly because I know you're behind schedule. These are some changes that the planning, excuse me that the planning commission started working on last summer, July of 2022. They are minor adjustments to the environmental protection standards that were adopted just a little over a year ago after the city staff DRB had experienced a few months of the regulations and some quirks with them. So we brought those to the planning commission. They include things like the wetland buffers were expanded in the LDRs. And that captured the backyards of a number of small single family house lots. The planning commission debated it and felt like preexisting house lots under half an acre that the wetland buffer should remain as it was originally because essentially the lots were laid out with the 50 foot wetland buffer. So adding another 50 feet to it means the middle of the house becomes in the wetland area. And so they're not able to really adjust things in their backyard. Minor adjustments to do with steep slopes, making it clear that projects that are specifically environmental restoration projects, ones largely led by our stormwater division are ones that are streamlined in their review, that kind of thing. And also authorizing staff to perform the minor wetland analyses in the city center form-based code area, just like everything else can be administratively done. In that case, staff still has the authority to kick it to the DRB if there's any reason that staff feels that it should be discussed and debated. So that's the summary. Happy to go into more detail for anyone, but I know the purpose of this is public hearing for you here from the public. All right, yes. Would you, if you wish to speak, would you please come up to the mic and please tell us your name? Good evening. My name is Kathy Easton. I'm a South Burlington resident. And if you don't mind, I've taken the time to type out my comments. So I'm sure I didn't miss anything. And I can also show you at some point, I didn't have big enough colored paper, but I made a little chart so I can show you exactly what I'm talking about. I come before you tonight to provide citizen input regarding the proposed amendments to the land development regulations. The comments which follow reflect my best understandings regarding the situation and any errors are my own. My husband and I are residents of South Burlington, as well as taxpayers. We have owned our property since 2007 and have resided in our home since it was built in 2011. My purpose tonight is to acquaint council members with the property maintenance issue that does not appear to fall within the current nor proposed wording of the LDRs in which we hope the city council will address via the incorporation of additional amendment language to give more needed flexibility into those regulations. At the outset, let me state that we have greatly appreciated the assistance of South Burlington staffers, Paul Connor and Marla King. They have worked with us over many months trying to find a solution within the wording of the LDRs, both existing and proposed, that will enable us to resolve a significant property maintenance issue. To date an acceptable solution has not been identified and the search for an answer has been frustrating, confounding and costly in terms of time, energy and money. To explain our situation, our property is just slightly over one acre in size or roughly 45,000 square feet. A need has arisen to repair and restore a relatively small section of slumping terrain located on an embankment. This situation has developed gradually over time, the result of natural settling, which has occurred over the last 11 years. And in the aftermath of city approved, site preparation and construction that took place in 2010, 2011. The ongoing and persistent terrain degradation has negatively impacted the functionality, safe use and maintenance in that area of our property. The area in question is along the north side of the basement level of our residence with the slumping terrain located adjacent to an approved patio bordered by a low serpentine dry laystone sitting wall. It should be noted that this is a sitting wall, not a retaining wall. The sitting wall marks the outer limits of the patio and forms a barrier between people in the adjacent slope. Both the sitting wall and the patio are being gradually destroyed by the slumping of the settling soil. So, here's my color paper turt. Where is this located? This is on Holmes Road in South Burlington. Mr. Barrett, I think you've been down there. You're probably in the DRB a long time ago. When this came up. As you take a picture, Mr. Connor, please note and comment that this is a lay person's map. Right, but now everyone will get to see it. Yes, now everyone will know. Good, okay, so in the recent regulations and you were on planning and zoning, you address lots of half an acre and an acre. And if it's an acre, it's a hundred foot setback. Well, this is our property. No piece of property that I know of is regular and normal or very few. This one, the yellow stands for abutting property owners. This is the road in our neighborhood. This is our property. This is Lake Champlain. This is a stream. These are wetlands. All this is slope. Our house sits in the only place that they could put it where each corner is within about six inches of where it is allowed to be. So we don't have a lot of room to mess around. And plus, when you talk about a hundred foot setback, well, that's for us, it's like a very steep embankment. So we have a little patio down here approved.  That is where the slumping ground is. And that's what we're trying to fix within the regulations. So. Could I just ask a question about the map? Is that the wetland or is that the wetland plus the 50-foot buffer? Is that all wetland that you're showing there, or does that include the buffer? This is, these are wetlands here that are on this side of the stream. But then there are wetlands on the other side too. And there are wetlands down here. There are class three wetlands, as they were judged back then. That was quick. That was, that was great. What? So what is red is the patio. And what is the little white thing is the. The little lime green strip is the slumped area as well. I haven't even shown. We have a very extensive stormwater engineering to try to take care of all that. We have tried to live in harmony with our natural environment. We've done the best that we can. So onward. After unsuccessful attempts at remediation to include rebuilding the sitting wall twice, we reached a point at which we needed to achieve a lasting solution. With that in mind, we consulted with several professionals and also sought input from city staffers to explore possibilities. The experts we consulted initially proposed the installation of approximately 10 or so large stones to stabilize the slumping area. This idea at first seemed to be acceptable to the city, but that was later determined not to be the case. We later explored another technique which uses helical piles for stabilization. They're sort of like big wine corkscrews. An interesting construction technique that may or may not even be possible for our situation given the underlying soils and materials used during the approved site preparation. So ultimately we identified several approaches which, depending on the requirements of the work, may have resulted in a potential project impact area of about 100 to 460 square feet of disturbed subsoil, soil, and lawn. A small area with respect to our lot side, which totals about 45,000 square feet. Our plan was that in the end, the restoration would yield a stabilized, aesthetically pleasing, environmentally sensitive and site appropriate result. Over many months, we have tried to understand what appears to be a complicated intersection of federal, state, and local regulations which may or may not apply to our property. I assume that these regulations may have been well intended in theory and on paper. However, in action they can be inflexible, contradictory, and burdensome. In our case, just when we thought that we may have found or understood a regulation that would permit the required maintenance, someone suggests that we may have a problem with some other lower condition that would preempt the work being performed. If it's not the stick in bank when there's slopes, then it's issues regarding wetlands, or setbacks, or materials, the list goes on and on. So what are we supposed to do? To do nothing is unacceptable. To sit by and march the continued deterioration of a section of our property does not represent a safe nor responsible solution to the situation. Now we realize that our property is somewhat unique in terms of terrain challenges, environmental features, lot lines, et cetera. In fact, it may not always fit neatly within the confines of the land development regulations which can seem to offer little room for flexibility and accommodation. However, when we built our house in 2010, 2011, we did so only after extensive studies by environmentalists, soils engineers, civil engineers, attorneys, et cetera. As well as a full review by and the blessings of the City of South Burlington Development Review Board. Have hope I'm getting to the end. So if the DRB and the city saw fit to approve the site plans on all the work and expense that went into the approval of construction process at that time, it seems only fair that property owners should have a reasonable expectation that they will be able to enjoy and maintain their property going forward. To suggest otherwise would be unfair and unfortunate, sending a message to citizens and taxpayers that the city is not willing to work with residents in a meaningful and reasonable manner regarding property issues that impact quality of life in your city. And it can seem especially unfair to small property owners and their similarly scaled projects when they see applications come before the development review board for consideration that seem to involve large projects. In one recent case, a February 2nd public notice referenced quote, one acre of 747.92 acres, the equivalent, I believe, of more than 32 million square feet. And we suspect that we are not the only citizens who own properties which do not fit within the strict wording of the regulations. Right now however, we may be the ones who are addressing the issue or who have a current situation that needs to be resolved. So we believe that the city council and South Wellington staffers could spend a bit more time to take another look at these proposed amendments and consider for inclusion, language which would allow the city to respond proactively and collaboratively to unique situations such as ours. As an example, the language might read something like, quote, such projects may be permitted when certain criteria are met and the applicant can demonstrate that no feasible alternative is available. I'm sure that city staffers could draft appropriate wording for the council to consider. So in closing, we thank city staffers for their continued assistance and look forward to working with them in the future. And we also thank city council members for their service to our city along with their time this evening and their consideration of the issues we have raised. Thank you. Paul, is that something you could work on and get back with us? If council would like for us to develop some methodology by which a property like this could be addressed, we would be more than happy to come back at your next meeting to do so. I for one would like to see that, seems reasonable. I would put them, I would put that in a motion. Well, I don't necessarily need to make a motion. We can just ask him to do that and he will. I don't need a motion. No, I don't need a motion. What you would do procedurally if you choose is, I would recommend that you close the public hearing, decide to give me the guidance that you'd like to see this and any other changes you choose. No further action after that tonight. At your next meeting, I would then bring this adjustment. You would then, because it is a change to the regulations, have to warn a new public hearing, hold that second public hearing because the public always has a chance to weigh in in the last piece, and then you'd have the opportunity to adopt at that time. Megan, has a question? Yeah, I just have a couple of questions and I don't know if this is appropriate for the public hearing or outside of the public hearing, but I saw a stream that goes into Lake Champlain to the north of your property. So I'm just gonna tell a story that Mont Saint-Michel, the very famous monastery, used to be in Brittany and the river changes course and now it's in Normandy. So it's a very funny story that people in France like to tell. But the question has to do with, are you protecting your home or are you protecting your patio? And how is the land changing? You know, environmentally speaking, is there a change in course? Is there a change in force? Is there a change in that? Yeah, I don't know that you can answer that question, but those are the questions that come to my mind that are you fighting this course of the river, changing a pattern or? Yeah, this is I. Sure, please. Right, well streams can change course quite a large distance. Visited this as part of the DRB for a site visit and it's not like that. Okay, thank you. That's what I needed to hear. To answer your question, this isn't anywhere near the stream. This is just a natural slumping that has occurred over time. And in between this area and the stream, there is part of our stormwater mitigation system. And there is in fact a swale that has wetlands plantings growing in it. So any water that comes down the hill goes through that swale, through the wetland plantings. And from that, it has to cross maybe another 20 feet before it gets to the stream. And that stream is subject to flooding from stormwater that comes way further up from all that paved area of all those buildings and then comes down.  So it's for liability as well as aesthetics. And it doesn't, I think it would be an enhancement. In fact, we even said, we would be willing if we put in some stones to put a little rain garden in there, we have all kinds of growing plants, we'd be happy to make whatever accommodation. But somehow in the language, when we talk about equity and diversity, I think we have to realize that properties are all different too. And then when you try to create regulations that are so strict, some properties just don't fit. And there has to be trust of public servants and employees to say, all right, we can make a determination and work with taxpayers to achieve a good resolution. Thank you. That's actually exactly what we're asking the legislature to do with S 100. And good luck. And it's with me. Yes. So thank you. That was clear in my mind. So it has to do with the swale that they're wanting to fix. Okay. Thank you. That didn't come through as clearly. Is there anyone else who would like to comment during the public hearing? Anyone out in TV land? No? Okay. I would entertain a motion. Out of the public hearing. So moved. Second. All in favor? Aye. So now we can ask you to see if you can figure out a solution and come back to us on the third of April with that language. And then we can set another public hearing. We'll do. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time. So we're gonna not obviously take up 12. We are going to go back to nine where we're gonna interview applicants to the planning commission. And we're gonna start with Ryan Doyle. So for the council, hi, for the council, I gave you a little list of who's here tonight on your tables and the documents are in the share book. Okay. Well, welcome, Ryan. And it sounds like you've had, you've been before us before. I think, I believe. Yes, last friend. Your experience in St. Albans. You're explaining it another time. So tell us why you haven't given up. Why would I? So I just have a really big passion for these kinds of things. Over the past month in particular, I've been reading for you a lot of our documentation plans and studies, not just what we're passing legislatively, but the plans that we get from engineers as well. And I both get really excited by it in like going through the minutiae of things but also have really high standards. And I wanna see things really come out solid. Right now we're about to undertake a comprehensive plan. And the really interesting thing about this year's plan is that we're talking about values where in the past we've mostly focused on goals. And that's a pretty common thing for municipalities but it's really important, I think, to have goals and visions grounded with reasons. So like Tyler was saying before, he has a real concern about the amount of heterogeneity of income and wants to be able to see that there are mixed income people all across the city, not just in some areas. All right, that's a value that the city might share or people who are serving on the Planning Commission or other boards might have that can be incorporated into the city plan and actionable items can be made about that or future planning. And I think as you all reflect, you can think of a time, especially if you've been serving on committees for a while where you've worked on a project and then it's come to fruition and didn't quite work how you were hoping it would, whether it's a specific piece of legislation or it's engineering plans that you received. And I think that we are more successful with those things when we ground them in specific values first or very concrete data. Not everything we can get concrete data for. Sometimes it's just not as quantitative but as a Planning Commission, we're able to request studies on various topics and we're fortunate that we already have some other committees that do some of the work that goes into those things like the Affordable Housing Committee or the Bikeped Committee. So I'll stop there and let you ask some more questions before I fill anything else in. So have you been to any of the Planning Commission meetings said in and listened or watched them on? I've reviewed some of the minutes and agendas and I've been to a few of the comprehensive plan meetings in this past month. So specifically the Bikeped and the Affordable Housing I was present for and then I got online for one of the neighborhood ones as well and I really like that kind of stuff, it's fun. Okay, other questions? Yes. So I have two questions that I'll actually ask all the applicants for the Planning Commission so everyone stay alert and then have a third specifically for you. The first two are what would you like to accomplish on the Planning Commission? So share your values and your vision this first and then second because we have kind of an embarrassment of riches of folks applying and we can only select two. If you're not selected, is there another city, commission committee that you'd like to serve on? And then finally there's a specific thing for you. I see your handle is likes to hike. So I'm wondering where you like to hike. Easiest questions first. Mount Mansfield is the first mountain of hiked and I still really like hiking it but specifically a loop that goes up Frost and Maple Ridge and then it does a little circle along Wampa Hoofus and Rock Garden and then back down. Love that loop down to Butler, the Butler cabin, right? You usually skip the Butler cabin so I can do both Wampa Hoofus and Rock Garden. Yeah, those are some very craggy trails and I love craggy trails. Growing up in St. Albans, I would hike around Hardack Hill which is a really nice asset and it's a smaller city, you might not follow what's going on much there but we've done a lot over the past 15, 20 years to really make Hardack Hill an accessible place for walkers, hikers and mountain bikers as well as reopening the ski area and now we have a municipal pool there that's all season as well so a lot of really great recreational opportunities there. So your other questions were, what are my visions? Let me just repeat right there too, just and I'm gonna ask I mean just these are the two I'll ask everyone is what would you like to accomplish on the PC so bring in your values, your vision and if not selected is there other committees, commissions that you'd like to serve on? So again, easier questions. I would say my primary academic focus tends to be with transportation so bike pet is not a bad fit for me although my experience goes also a lot more into vehicles as well so it's using a much smaller fraction of what my skill set would be but that's probably the more pertinent area as far as what values that I come to the table with I'm not sure I've summarized that well enough It was cut off actually, we didn't see the end Oh shucks, okay so I can actually read that because I didn't read that with me. What was the last two words you saw? I appreciate the planning, the missions, responsibilities to undertake capacity studies, engineering studies, preliminary. Planning and comprehensive planning and the many tools the legislature specifically put under the purview of the planning commission such as land development, urban renewal, transportation, economic and social development and environmental and energy concerns. These are topic areas I continue to educate myself in and I really nerd out for good plans and studies, a few that I've read on the city's website already and I enjoy being concerned, excuse me, I also ran out of tea. I enjoy being discerning and I really think that we should hold the engineering and consultant plans that we get to a very high standard. I think our taxpayers deserve no less and I would be honored to lend my experience and skills to this board. So what that last part refers to and I think some other speakers tonight and over the course of the city plan in 2024 have referred to is that there are lots of things at the federal level in terms of transportation, zoning and housing that for many decades have been discriminatory and have also been shaped by lobbyists of industries like the automobile industry. And unfortunately things like the AASHTO Manual, the American Association of State Highway Transportation officials, it isn't updating very fast. We have a lot of examples from around the world and even other large metropolitan cities in the US who are implementing other methods that are more effective at bringing safer bike, pet and transit usage to their cities much beyond what we get from the standard transportation engineers, especially in a state like Vermont where we don't historically have urban design taking place. And also as we look into things like affordable housing, the US has a lot of ingrained ways that we approach that that aren't as successful as case studies we have from other countries as well. Then they use a variety of other tools that they implement to achieve better goals and outcomes. And so just like you guys feel with the zoning, your item eight, where it feels like the state is trying to do something because by and large statewide most municipalities haven't undergone the amount of detailed planning that you have for the LDR areas and they're trying to make something blanket to pull these communities that are behind up. There are a lot of areas where we are already ahead of the state or could go much further than if we're keep going to the state for advice on these things. And I think we can really move all of these topics forward a lot faster if we concentrate a lot of intellect in these areas and do a really good comprehensive plan this time around. I also look forward to updating the land development regulations specifically the foreign based codes. I mean, Megan, you were part of those discussions online and also last Wednesday where people were voicing some concerns and I think we're right. If we take a look at things in process if we realize they're not working quite like the way we envision, it's good to immediately take that step back, reevaluate it and see if we can get things on the right course instead of just letting opportunities slip us by. And so I feel that kind of energy and excitement right now for all the things that are happening in the city. Okay, other questions? May I ask you some questions? You certainly, that was gonna be my next question for you. Do you have any questions for us? City counselors, what do you see as the value of having a comprehensive plan and what aspects do you particularly look forward to seeing improved or added the most? You can answer that as quickly as you like. I don't really think that we should be answering a question posed by an applicant when we're the ones asking any questions because we have eight other applicants for the rest of the evening. That's fair. What I was really asking you for questions is is there anything about the either the process or the commission that you need to know? Nope, I've served four years on the St. Albans Planning Commission. That works. Three years on the city council, have the general layout of how these things go down in Vermont, yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Okay, Francis McDonald is next. He's in person, Mr. Francis. There he is. Thank you. Well, welcome. Oops, I'm guessing I'm gonna move closer. Okay, do you wanna start with your questions? Yeah? I'm happy to let Francis introduce himself. Okay, well, you can introduce yourself. Your cover letter was a good introduction, but I think... So what I think, what would I like to accomplish on the Planning Commission would be, you know, I would like to see balanced growth within the city. There's been a lot of discussion tonight about the type of housing and where the housing should go. I think that we need to look at both the need for housing, but also the city's ability to provide the services that those new houses are gonna need. I think as we grow, the schools are gonna need, we're gonna need to evaluate our schools, our police and fire protection, our public works ability to plow the streets and to repair streets, and also sewage treatment and our water treatment and the capacities. So I think that growth does bring increased costs for services, and I think we need to balance our needs for housing with our ability to provide the services that the housing needs. That's one thing I'd like to accomplish. I think I would wanna also continue the good work that's already been done on energy conservation goals, reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. I think housing needs to be near services and without creating a lot of need for driving to meet basic needs. I also feel it's important to preserve the open space in the city. We have a lot of open space in the southeast quadrant, but we don't have a lot of open space in other parts of the city. I think there's a little park across from here, but I think if we had more opens, if we looked at this city center development and had good open space here in the future, that's something that we need. And I think the, I don't know if it's northeast, but there's, or the northern part of the city, but there's not a lot of open space there that seems to be accessible. So I think open space in other parts of the city is important. And I think the comprehensive plan, that's really the guiding document that the city's gonna use for, I guess it's the next seven years. I think it was five years in the past, but I think these are now seven years. That's in really the final stages of preparation before it gets sent to the council in September. And I think in looking at that, I think we need to there again, look at the balance between our needs and our values and how we can grow and what our resources are. Okay. Have you visited or spent time on watching any of the planning commission? I have, yes. So you understand the time commitment? Yes. And you have that time? Yes. Other questions people might have? You live in South Point? I live in South Point. How long have you lived there? I've lived there since 2016. I moved to Vermont from the Boston area. Okay. And after I was there for a couple of years, they asked me to serve on the neighborhood association, which I did one year as a at-large member, but two years as the chair. And during that was during interim zoning, the period of interim zoning, and also the time when a development was proposed. And so it fell to me to learn the values of the neighborhood and the issues that all of the neighborhood felt and to present those issues to, because it was in interim zoning to present those issues to the city council and also the DRB. Do you take advantage of the hiking trails that go through the Great Swamp in South Village and over to Hubbard Park and Wright? You do, okay. Yeah, in fact, we're in the process of installing some new signs to keep people so they know where Hubbard is and they know which South Point loops and you don't get lost in the woods. Other questions? You certainly have a variety of work experiences. You've done a little bit of everything, huh? A little bit. It seems, yeah. Yeah. A lot of bit and some of them, Bob. A lot of bit. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say one of the, I guess one of the things that I feel like I can bring to the position would be, you know, acting, I mean, the ability to collaborate and find consensus.  And you have to represent essentially both parties. You know, the customer, you have to represent to the manufacturer and vice versa in the process of sales and in the process of troubleshooting problems. So I think, great. All right, well, I appreciate you applying as I do all of everyone who is here or online. And I thank you for your willingness. Thank you. We'll hear John Mascatelli. Did I butcher your name? Mascatelli. Mascatelli. Mascatelli. And so your, let's see, let's just talk about planning commission. Certainly. Okay.  I'm a degree to engineer. So lots of analytical data focused. I was also, before we moved up here in Jersey, I was essentially the equivalent of a city council member for six years, which also put me on the planning board and the senior citizens board and the rec council and a whole bunch of other things. But so I've done planning board and the way planning board was structured in Jersey, that was the planning portion as well as a lot of review of larger projects. So some of the DRB carryover. So I've got lots of practice at, you know, both aspects of that. So as far as what I would like to see, a lot of what the gentleman before me just said, actually, I think we're at a point with the city where we need to be very careful. I think we don't want to end up with suburban sprawl. I just moved out of South Jersey and guarantee that is not why we moved to Vermont. That was going to be my question, because I grew up in New Jersey, wanting to know if you wanted to recreate it here. I was in a town of 2.8 square miles. We had 18,000 people and we had no open land, no developable, I mean, it was completely built out and no industry whatsoever. It was all residential. We want to be very careful how we're building out. And I think it's very important that we preserve our open space. And I think the changes to the LDR were a good thing. I think we definitely need more housing units. It seems we're moving very aggressively to build. Back to one of the things I'd really love to see from the city is, you know, how many units have we built over the last, say, five years and how many have been permitted? Because I think we're expanding our housing stock at a rate that's much faster than a lot of people appreciate. Which is to try and help with the lack of housing, which is real and the lack of affordable housing, which is also real. I think we have a good vision for city center. I think we need to do a lot of work to make that happen. I think once we get more development, particularly like the UVM development that they just announced and more people down there, then that'll attract more businesses because there'll be more customers and it'll be more walkable. And I think it'll be a good thing for the city, which will naturally generate more need for more foot traffic, more bike traffic, fewer car trips. We sprawl the development too much and we're gonna end up with roads that are choked and intersections that have to have traffic controls and traffic and, oh, it's four o'clock. I can't go out of my house. And as it is getting past the mall on Dorset can be a gauntlet at times, forcing the city to spend money on things like signal upgrades and all that. It will come if we're not careful on how we plan things. So I think it's a very important thing to make sure that we're looking at very hard and balancing the natural and environmental resources with the need to accommodate a growing population. You put your first choices planning commission and your second is DRB or are they? I would be happy to do either. Either one, you've had experience with both. Yes. So I found them both interesting. So if planning is a better fit than our rezoning is a better fit or DRB is a better fit than planning, I would be perfectly happy with that. And as you mentioned, you have an embarrassment of riches here with very qualified applicants. So I can certainly understand if you go a different direction. Did he answer your questions? Yes. Okay. Any other questions or concerns? Do you have any questions for us? I have a quick question. Oh, I'm sorry. So have you attended any of the meetings? Have you either? No, I attended a couple of DRB meetings when there were some issues going on behind our house. I'd be like noise to have them slink when they're ship or back hose like chip. Okay, yes. I haven't attended any of the planning board meetings. I didn't rank it for six years. So I'm pretty familiar with how it goes. You have sufficient time to attend these meetings? Yes, absolutely. I'm a stay at home dad. So I have got time. In terms of your approach to working on a committee or a commission, how would you describe sort of the role that you'd like to play or a good at? Very analytical. Like going through the reports, I like data. There are a lot of things that people feel are true. You know, that gut reaction sort of thing, which can be real at times, but I can't make decisions based on that. You need the data. You need to see where the truth is coming from and then make decisions that are in everyone's recommendations that are in everyone's best interests. So I don't want to study things to death. I think the boards need to have timelines and get the work done. But I think it's important to have real data, have a good discussion around things. Inherently, anything you do is zoning is restrictive. You know, by the nature of it, if you put any zoning rule in place, you have restricted somebody's right to do something. So you need to weigh what are the benefits of that zoning versus what are the costs and make sure that it's worth it. So study it hard, move it along, get the recommendations, do you vote? So you can make the hard decisions and you have to defend them. So one more question. So if you really like detail, do you really enjoy looking at site plans with layers and layers of stormwater plans and then, you know, sewer plans and then- Percolation rate test. Elevations that the DRB focuses on mostly, right. I said either would work for me. I would be happy with both. Okay, thanks. I'm glad you're here. Eleanor, I can ask you to South Burlington, when? 2019. Okay, and that was directly from New Jersey? Yes. Mind if I ask, why South Burlington? Schools. Primarily for the schools. My wife works at the medical center. So it's very convenient where we live, she bikes. So that's very nice. The schools were the best fit for our kids in the area. They start a little later and the kids really thought that was a good thing. So not warning people. And it's worked out well so far, we're very happy. Great. Good question. Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll see you later. Larry Smith. Lori. Oh, Lori, I'm sorry. That's a Larry. I knew a Larry Smith. Sorry, Lori. I should have said Lawrence. That's quite all right. And... Okay, so you've been active on some issues for South Burlington. What has prompted you to wanna be on the planning commission? Well, I'll start by saying congratulations to Tyler and Andrew on your election. And just to say thank you to all of you guys for the countless hours you contribute to our community. And I live in Queen City Park. I live in a 1600 square foot house that we nine years ago renovated into a net zero totally decarbonized house that includes a 400 square foot ADU. We love Queen City Park because it does not, everything doesn't require or start out with get in the car. We can do almost anything without being in the car. And that's a big advantage to where we are. And it's especially a concern with what's going on in our environment today. My daughter lives in South Burlington. She's gonna have a child in July. And I'm very concerned about what her child is gonna experience in her lifetime. I think that the city is at a point where there are a lot of big issues that we're facing with land development and planning. And I think there are a lot of conflicting, very valid points of view. My role on the Planning Commission would be I think largely as a collaborative problem solver and looking at the conversation that was going on on item eight is a classic example of really valid perspectives that are very different, that need to dig into where do we have the common ground and how do we find the solution that moves this issue forward. There are lots of people who are good detail guys and I'll leave it to them to look at the percolation charts and everything else. I was on the Development Review Board in Shelburne for a number of years. And that's much more of an administrative position. I'm really interested in policy and how we develop this city so that it can be the best it can be going forward and that it really reflects what is special about Vermont and maintains that and also is livable, affordable and kind and enjoyable to be in. All things that are addressed in the city plan. And I think the comprehensive plan has been done really well. I think it's got a lot of great stuff in it. But I do think we have a number of areas where we really need to figure out how to find the path that addresses what seem like really conflicting perspectives and find the place where we're all pulling together. And I've done that in my job as a design build contractor working with cities and towns throughout the Champlain Valley. And so I think that would be the big role that I would bring. And in terms of other committees, I entertained running for the city council decided not to do that at this point, may in the future. I think the planning commission really speaks to the visionary things that I deal with more so than other committees. And I really want to see this town grow beautifully. Great. Thank you. Other questions or comments? Thoughts? Do you have any questions for us? I have a quick question. Oh, yes. So you developed the property that this co-op was in on North Winooski? Yes. That was the second location. That was the second location. The first one was on Archibald, right? Yeah, okay. I had a woodworking company in that building for a number of years. An architectural woodworking company. And then had to do some pretty interesting things with planning and zoning to be able to make it so that the co-op could go into that location. And had to do negotiations with abutting property owners. And it was a fun project. There's a little bit of history here for you folks. Yes, yes, okay. Archibald Street, North Winooski, and then South Winooski. And I moved to Vermont in the late 70s and lived in Burlington and then Shelburne and I've been in South Burlington since 2010. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Oh, I'm sorry. Laurie, can you just allow by a little bit on the third bullet in your work experience that says engaged in collaborative effort to protect our community? What was that? Well, for the last four years we've been working to try to ensure that the development of the Burton campus is done in a way in a scale that is appropriate for the location. We had hoped that it would be a very collaborative process. Unfortunately, it hasn't been. I've been, my wife and I have really been the lead of people in managing a 15-person appellant group that are working to try and ensure that as that development goes in, it's done in a way that does not leave neighbors unable to sleep at night and disrupted in a way that just disturbs what is a quiet part of our city and quiet is really important in our cities and we can maintain it. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. Michael Scanlon, welcome. Thank you. And yeah, what would you bring to the table? You identify some things. What would you bring in terms of how you work with other people? I would say how I work with other people has been consistent through the 30 years that I've served as a diplomat and that is to reach consensus and to find common way to achieve shared objectives and to find what are at times seemingly disparate views and disparate positions that there can be a commonality. Zero sum usually ends to nowhere finding compromise achieves objectives, maybe not specific objectives that everyone wants but the ones that provide the greater good. Okay. And you spent 30 years in economic development. Were you with AID or something like that? No, I was at the State Department but my specialty is the former Soviet Union and the Balkans. So it was about starting up in transition positions that usually in the most cases, first on the ground, first in position to try to drive policy decisions in these new states or in these post-conflict environments to create sustainable economic environments that allow people to stay, to allow people who perhaps were fighting before to live together and to live in a situation that is not just about multi-ethnic integration as in the last place that I was in Bosnia and Zcobinia but also prosperity. Go ahead, yeah. I'd be interested to hear more about your planning interests with regard to municipal planning. Sure, I mean, I think the past aside is my planning focus is to help contribute to what is happening here in South Burlington. I think as I laid out in my statement, it was a very thought through long process to decide to bring my family here. I connected with the state of Vermont as a child on holidays. It drove me to come here to study. After seeing the world, we decided when we had a family, we wanted to come to a place like Vermont. We visited extensively and traveled around and we decided on South Burlington in large part because of what you all are doing now. And in many ways, I seeing tonight and I have attended all of the comprehensive plan meetings. I've read the documentation and it's been inspiring because actually what we see unfolding here is what we were trying to promote when I was working for the federal government overseas. It is this consensus approach. It is this sort of reflective approach on how to create a community. And the reason we chose South Burlington is because you're actually in a very unique situation. You're trying to create a sense of community, a sense of city. A lot of other places that we visited in Vermont already had it and we're sort of locked in to sort of frameworks. Yes, you have challenges because of the unique infrastructure, be it Wilson, Shelburne Road, I-89. You have to somehow create within these very strong infrastructures a sense of community. The city center is important, but as I've heard in these very meetings, it's very important to create more of a circular transportation route that connects one side of the city to the other city instead of having to go through Burlington. It's about creating the vibrance and dynamics that you bring in the workforce that creates sustainable business environments that hopefully cuts down on the number of people who travel outside of the city who can actually find opportunities here. It also creates the importance of not only homes in the center, but along the transportation routes, but also about moving a little bit into other parts of the city and bringing green spaces into other part of the cities as well as commercial entertainment opportunities in close proximity. So what we thought as a family was that this was an exciting place to be a part of. And whether it's through the planning commission, whether it's through it's being an active citizen, whether it's serving on some other committee, I feel that the unique opportunity to participate in a community that we have consciously chosen to make our home a large part because we align ourselves with the vision laid out in the first plan of 216 and intending all the meetings. I've been very impressed by the creative ideas of trying to move it further and forward. Of course the challenge will be the sustainability. It's a very ambitious community. We're excited to be a part of it, but the cost will be significant and that obviously is gonna have to come into the planning commission decisions, whether the redesign of the university mall creates another opportunities, as I've seen in Falls Street, Virginia, where I used to live for some time, how do you create an income base to allow you to do all the other wonderful things you want to do, but to be done in a way that creates also a balance with the identity of the community. So for me, this is a great privilege and honor and I applaud what you're doing and I applaud the way you do it. The transparency and the openness of discussion is really inspiring for someone who is working countries where that is not the norm. All right, I guess so. Yeah, any other, yes? Yeah, Michael, thanks for applying. Do you think that your time living in Europe offers you a different perspective on land use and communities that would bring value to this position? I would say yes and in fact, this is why we were sort of inspired by your vision. It is more about a walking public transport-based lifestyle. It's more about being a human face, which I think I was very excited in hearing in each of the regional or sort of neighborhood discussions, human focus was always at the front. That was, and so this is basically a lifestyle in Europe is more about always being around others, not necessarily by driving by a car, but by basically walking out your home and being a part of a community or society, whether it is sitting at a cafe, having a coffee, whether it's doing your grocery shopping, whether it's walking down to your school to get your kid or whether it's jumping on the bus that takes you along routes that other people in your neighborhoods will be jumping on and off. So I think that's what I hope to also offer is because I think that is what aligns with the vision that I've seen here and after all those years in Europe, it is one of the reasons why we chose South Burlington. We see the same desire of walking lifestyle, sustainable lifestyle, living and working together is the way we've enjoyed living abroad. Other comments or questions? The only other thing I would like to add is it's also about living in a community in which we can grow old and we are here with a young boy. This is obviously what we wanted to him to have a life where he can run free. As we did as my wife was Ukrainian, she did in her country and I did my country and only say, you know, be home for dinner at 6.30 and it's great freedom. But also at some point, he will go off. We would like to think that there's a dynamic environment where people maybe go off and come back as we have chosen to come back to Vermont. But it's also a place where my wife and I would like to age in place. And therefore, I think the discussion about different types of housing stocks is very important because what I want at this age and at a different age is going to be different. And what my son would want if he wanted to stay at a different age. So the fact that there is this discussion within your plan about not just addressing one sort of group of people, yes, diversity, but also diversity of ages and what they need as well. So I applaud that very much. All right. Well, thank you very much for applying. Thank you. Michelle Corpus. Andrew, what's your little dog's name? Leo? Leo. OK. So Michelle and Leo. I wish mine was not well behaved. That's OK. I don't have to push anything this time, right? I don't have to push this. I don't think so. Is it bright green? Yeah, I think so. You might want to put it a little closer. You have a soft voice. OK. Good. Good. OK. So you're interested in serving. Tell us, you mean you lived in California and did a lot of things there. What brought you back to Vermont? I actually was a climate refugee. The fires drove me out of California after several years of fires getting closer and closer and closer to my home and the air quality being really poor and really having problems breathing and whatnot. I didn't even want to let him go out to go to the bathroom because it was just so intense in 2020. And so I came back to my childhood home, which is over by the airport. I've also lived in Europe. I've also lived and worked in Costa Rica. So I spent some time in Zurich. I spent a lot of time in Barcelona. Nice places. Yeah. I love Barcelona. Me too. In Canta, Barcelona. And so I've seen a lot of different approaches to city planning. When I was in California as a wildlife biologist, I came to a lot of planning commission and city council meetings, county planning to talk about various projects, planned projects, and what the environmental implications would be for those and how to work with developers so that there was as much of a win-win as possible. I've worked on all different kinds of projects like golf course and McMansion kind of places. And I've worked on redeveloping malls and whatnot. And all different types of housing developments and conservation easements and all different kinds of things. I wrote some habitat conservation plans. And so my background is I have a science background, of course. And my approach to working is to receive the data. I love to research myself too. So I do a lot of checking up on various things to make sure that I agree with the data as they're presented. And then working collaboratively to figure out what is the best win-win situation. It says you're basically retired. So the time that the planning commission requires isn't daunting to you? It's not daunting, no. Because it can be. It's a lot. It can be a lot, you know, a couple times a week. You eat almost as much as we do. Right? Yeah. So I have spoken with a couple other people on the planning commission just to make sure I understood the time commitment. And yeah, to me, it's very important to come back to my hometown and be really kind of shocked by some of the things that I was seeing and then having an opportunity to really potentially serve on the planning commission, especially during this time of the comprehensive plan and using my experience from living in various other places to help us come up with a plan that works long term, kind of looks at the long term planning. And we don't want, my opinion is that we don't want to build too much too soon. So I think it's very important to, like was said previously, and it's something I think I said a couple weeks ago, is that we make sure that our infrastructure can handle the development that we are planning, that we are growing along with demand and maybe a little bit ahead of demand, but not so far ahead of demand that we get ahead of ourselves. I think that that's really important to have a strategic plan. And I think that's what this document is aiming for. Questions? All right. Well, thank you. And Leo for showing up. Just one question. What were you shocked by? Well, one of the things I was shocked by was the O'Brien's development of Kennedy Drive. And when we first moved here in the 60s, my mom was very interested in that property over there. And she was told that the curb would never be cut. She tells the story often. And then to, by my estimate, there have been at least 1,500 trees removed from there. I don't see any kind of mitigation. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there was some kind of mitigation for the loss of that habitat. But I haven't seen it. I don't know of it. And please let me know if I'm wrong. And in fact, something did happen there in terms of offsetting the habitat loss. I'm not aware of anything. But Paul, are you? Yeah. So I don't think it happened. So things like that, right? This beautiful complex right here that we have in city center, I'm surprised to see that the developers didn't have to put a traffic light in at Hinesburg Road. Coming off Market Street onto Hinesburg Road, that is a huge bottleneck at certain times of the day. And other places where I've lived, that would have been a requirement by the council of the planning department would have said, in order for you to do this, you have to ensure that this is taken care of as part of the development cost. Or maybe that it would have been split between the city and the developers. But that that would have been part of the package. So I think certain things like that I'm seeing that are surprising to me. OK. Thank you very much. Thank you. And then Nora Seneca, she's on Zoom. See where she. There she is. Hi, good evening. Good evening. Thank you. OK. Thank you for letting me participate remotely. So I can just begin by where would you like me to start? I don't know why you're interested, I guess. What you would like to change or what you bring to the table. I like to think about Andrew's question of, what would you like to accomplish? I've lived on the Shelburne Road corridor for 22 years and currently live in the Orchards neighborhood. And when I heard that there was going to be more development of housing on Shelburne Road and in that area around Shelburne Road, I definitely piqued my interest in terms of what was going to be the plan around that area. For no reason that I oppose it or anything like that, it's just that there seemed to be that there needed to be a lot of thought into how are we going to build housing and accommodate the needs of people living there. And I think that's what my focus would be in terms of what to accomplish on the Planning Commission is really thinking about the people living in a specific neighborhood or creating neighborhoods or building up neighborhoods and what's that impact on the people. And so for example, if you were to build up around Shelburne Road and put affordable apartments there, people who rely on transit, they can only get downtown. They can't get east or west. So we'd have to really figure out how can people move within the city. The other thing that you'd also have to figure out is most of the medical mental health services are actually really more located around Dorset Street in this more city center or downtown, obviously, the UDM Medical Center. And there's not really a lot of those types of supportive social services or even just like basic doctor's offices or things like that. You have big everything on Tilly Drive. So even getting from Tilly Drive if you or on public transport would be a challenge. So just thinking about people who live in those apartments, they need open space. They need parks.  And so I've thought a lot about that area. It's not the only area of the city, obviously, I think about. But I just think that as you plan a city, it's not just where the curb cut is. It's how does that impact the people who move around that neighborhood or want to get to places and you might be limiting one thing and have unintended consequences about future development or future options. So that's what I feel like in terms of what would I like to accomplish is to think about the people who maybe who are maybe lower income, who are maybe middle income and struggling to live in South Billington, who maybe don't have a big gap between their housing and what they have left over to spend money on. I attended five of the comprehensive plan meetings, which were wonderful. They were really just wonderfully led and had wonderful conversations with people. And I think this is a city with just enormous talent and a ton of good ideas. And yes, some of those are expensive. But I think the ones that are very human focused and the ones that don't leave certain sectors of our community behind are really important. Thank you. So do you have the time to participate in all the meetings? You work full time as a social worker? I work at a degree in social work. I work full time as a social worker at UVM Medical Center. I work in adult psychiatry. OK. Which of the planning commission sessions did you attend? I attended the transportation, parks and rec. I attended the housing. And I attended the Southeast Quadrant and the Southwest neighborhoods. I would have attended more out of town a bunch during the beginning of February. And so I missed some of those.  You did? She did her part. She attended five meetings. Yeah. So you are very comfortable with the amount of time it will take to be on the planning commission. I understand that with the writing of the comprehensive plan, I know it's two meetings a month, but it's obviously going to be a lot more in between that. There's a lot to read. There's a lot to. I mean, I was just looking at what's going to be presented. I think tomorrow, right, they're going to start going over things. And yeah, there's a lot to digest. I mean, some of the language is really general, but obviously there's a lot to digest in between meetings and to prepare for meetings. But you're comfortable with that. OK. Other questions or thoughts? Yes. You raised some of the goals that you would love to have happen, such as bringing more doctors offices down to the Shelburne corridor, having public transport to take people over to the southeastern and northwestern corridors or quadrants. And I also heard bringing in more parks, places to walk, the dog places for children to play in the Shelburne Road corridor. How would you see that happening in terms of a planning? Well, that's the planning part. I mean, if you look at that area on that side of Shelburne there's not a lot of there's not very much public land at all. I mean, you're it's really I don't know if you're going to bring. I don't know if you're going to change certain aspects of what's there, right, we're pretty awash in car dealerships. But I think I think where land is available to create open space with priority should be given to that if you're going to put more more housing there and work with and or figure out how you're going to access some of the the current parks. I mean, we have a vehicle park, we have Samansky Park and my neighborhood. We've got Feral down the road. I think I think that's where the planning is. It's like, OK, how if somebody wanted to live here, how are they going to get here and put that kind of thought into it? I mean, a lot of it is this minutiae of how does this person, if they want to be here, go to the grocery store here, do this safely, you know. Thank you. And because I just want to say, because I've lived there, I've crossed Shelburne Road with children and taken the bus and, you know, ridden my bike. You know, I know what the challenges are of of moving around the city and or affordable to stay in the city. So thank you. OK, do you have any questions for us or last thoughts, things we haven't asked you that we should know? I think as I think one of the things I think about. You know, I think one of the biases about. You know, yes, planning is a lot of data. Planning is a lot of looking at, you know, it's it's maps, it's how things are configured and. And I think sometimes people think of like, if you work in the human services and you work in social work, that that's not a part of your wheelhouse and it actually is. There's nothing we do in clinical work that's not research driven or isn't about how how we do things ethically or or based on something more than a feeling. And so just the the I work with more in a more of a human centered environment. It doesn't mean that that that that isn't a part of what I do or what what is, you know, what is important to my work. I also would say that we just that I want the vision. I think, again, what I'd like to accomplish is the vision to include all sectors of the community. OK. Thank you very much, Nora, for applying in your interest. Thank you so much. Thanks for going so late and getting us up there. And I've seen a number of applicants in these meetings. So it's kind of we have a lot. There's some. Yes, I've met it. So thank you very much. OK. All right. Have a good day. You too. Thank you. We're going to move on to the Development Review Board. We'll interview those three candidates. And then we're going to take a short break and kind of move a couple of things around in the agenda. So we're not here all night. Can I say one other thing? Yes, you may. I think the council's intention tonight is to hear all the interviews and then at the end of the meeting go into executive session. So folks are welcome to stay for the duration, but likely there won't be any other action tonight. We will follow up tomorrow or the next day. Staff will people are welcome to stay and hang out if you would like. All right, so first up is David Richard Warsaw Parsons. Well, that's a lot of names. Yeah, yeah. This guy looks familiar to me for some reason. I think I've seen him before in the past. OK, so you're interested in the DRB you've served there before at the same time. That's what it is. Yes. Yeah. So you think they need you again, right? I don't know if they need me, but I would love to be there and think I could contribute. OK, so what would you bring that you think they is really important? I think experience from previous service. I'm certainly learning a great deal, being able to familiarize myself with the land development regulations. I haven't dealt this deeply as I'd like t