Good After New Year! Yes, it's the second year of 2023 and today we're going to discuss love. No one can define love, least of all me, of course. It is elusive. No dictionary captures it. No poem encapsulates it. There's no way we can truly communicate it. We use the word love as a shorthand for something, something ephemeral, something ethereal, something that infuses us with a sense of life. We feel alive when we love. Love, life, they share a few letters in common. And so I will not attempt to define love, but I will definitely tell you what love is not. Because we know a lot about what masquerades as love, what passes as love, what disguises itself as love, all the manifestations of interpersonal relationships that are mislabeled and mistaken as love. And this is today's topic. My name is Sam Vaknin and the author of Malignant Self-Love, Narcissism Revisited. I'm also a professor of psychology in CEAPS, Center for International Advanced Professional Studies and the Outreach Program of the CEAS Consortium of Universities. Before you watch this video, you may wish to watch another one, Toxic Sex When Love is Bed for You. It's on my channel. The link is in the description. So I can't help you with what love is. If I could, I would win all the Nobel Prizes combined. I can't help you with this. No one can actually. Love is a highly individual experience, a private language, an idiosyncratic state of emoting, a state of mind, kind of mood We have severe difficulty telling apart love from limerence, from infatuation, from attraction. We don't know enough. There's a biochemical background to all of these which resembles addiction very much and operates in the same centers of the brain. But today is not about neuroscience and other pseudosciences. Today is about love. What love is not? Loving someone is not the same as loving the way that he or she loves you. Let me repeat this because I adore the sound of my voice. Loving someone is not the same as loving the way that he loves you.  You've changed his life. He's never experienced something like this. Before you're incorporated in a shared fantasy, you learn to love yourself through his gaze. When I say his, it could be her. Of course, I'm using male pronoun for convenience sake. It applies to both genders. So when you love someone because of the way he makes you feel about yourself, because of the way he loves you, that's not love. That is self infatuation. In the best case, it's self love. It's somewhat auto erotic. It's a lot narcissistic. Loving someone is also not the same as loving to be in love. Some people love to be in love. They feel alive only when they are in love. When there's no love in the air, their lives are drab, ugly, dragging, pedestrian, mundane. You see how many words I know? Did I impress you? Let's proceed. Yes, loving someone is not the same as wanting always to be in a state of love. You may be addicted to love. You may be addicted to this all infusing feeling of arousal, of potency, of flowering. But then your partner is coincidental. Your partner is not really important. It is the emotion that matters. You're invested in being in love. You're committed to this feeling. And so that's not love. Loving someone is also not the same as merging with your partner, fusing with him, becoming one with him, dependent on him in every way. Love is not about any of these things. It's never about self-sacrifice. It's never about self-negation. It's never about being engulfed and disappearing into someone. It's never about external regulation. That's where borderlines are getting it wrong. That's not love. That's not love. That is selfish. Codependence and borderlines control from the bottom. They emotionally blackmail the partner through their ostentatious and ostensible love. But that's not love. You don't love someone because you can merge with them. You don't love someone because you can disappear into them. You don't love someone because they can regulate your moods, tell you about reality, control your cognitions and emotions, provide you with a rock-like stability. You don't love someone because of what they can give to you. You don't love someone because of what you can take from them. You love someone for who they are, regardless of the net profit and the bottom line. Loving someone is also not the same as hating, loneliness or being desperate. Not the same. Desperation is a bad advisor. Loneliness is a state of mind. Using other people to self-soothe and self-comfort and feel less lonely and be less desperate is just this. Using people, objectifying them, exploiting them for your own needs. Self-medicating with people is not love. Promiscuity, emotional or physical, is not love. It has nothing to do with love. Loving someone never involves fantasy or idealization. It is always grounded in reality. You see your partner. This is the supreme primordial, atavistic, foundational act of love. Seeing your partner. Allowing the partner to be a separate entity with all its gifts and all its potentials self-actualized. Your partner is another person. It's not a figment of your imagination. He is not a creature in some fantastic space or paracosm. He is not ideal. He is human. Wards in all and all. He is not an object. Loving someone is also not about assuming a parental role. Not about providing unconditional love. Loving someone is a given take with boundaries, with compromises, with negotiations. Loving is the stuff of life and life is never a clear cut. It's never split between good and bad, wrong and right, black and white, hot and cold. This is dysfunctional, pathological thinking. Love is the art of the fuzzy. Love is the art of working together towards common goals, sharing common values on a common path towards debt, realization of being in each other's life for good and to do good.


Hello, good evening and welcome to your favorite show on national television, Crossroads, brought to you by the Ministry of Youth Development and Sports and it forms part of their virtual youth development program. As always, I am your host, Karim Nelson, joined by Jacques Wooding and a few other lovely guests this evening. Of course, you know, we're always having a packed schedule here on Crossroads and this week is no different. I hope my outfit says a little bit about what we are doing on Crossroads today. Our theme is youth and creole. So expect a lot of young people and expect a lot of creole, although we will not be doing the entire show in creole and I say that is unfortunate because Karim and I need to brush up on our creole lessons. But of course, those are things we will be speaking about in this evening show. So thank you so much for being here with us. Of course, Karim, take the floor, introduce all of us guests. All right, so we have a creole themed episode and we're going to be speaking about youth and creole. So tonight we're joined by so many hats. I don't even know which one to use. Youth advocate. Creole advocate as well. Creole advocate as well, Jakub Nesto. So if you want to tell the people who you are, just a short intro. Good night. My name is Jakub Nesto. I am the former Caricom Youth Ambassador, current USA Youth Ambassador. As you said, I've heard many hats when it comes to representing Senmush on an international level. And I do a lot of advocacy when it comes to marginalize youth, youth at risk, the LGBTQI community, children with special needs. When you have special needs, I would say differently abled persons. And I've done it all, sustainable development. I've really built my portfolio as a young person in development. Amazing. And of course, that is exactly what Crossroads is about, identifying young people like yourself who are doing so much and forming that bridge in which people can identify them and know, you know, we have young people working hard in St. Lucia.  So it's only fair to imagine that while wearing all those hats, you've been able to utilize the Creole language to broaden the number of people you're able to communicate with on these important issues. Yes, for sure. I remember I had a conference in Haiti and it really served me well. I've always been getting called as well from a friend in Dominica to do interviews for Dominican TV and radio as well in Creole language for you to understand and for the older generation. And I feel that it's really important for us to inculcate young persons in the diaspora when it comes to Creole, because sometimes it's under utilized down a hair in St. Lucia. But when you look at places like Dominica, Mathnik, St. Martin, Guadalupe and Haiti, they really have an understanding of how important a mother tongue is compared to what you deem as the official language of a country. Of course. And I think it's fair enough to note that Creole is a language, you know, for everybody who went to Sao Paulo when you do comms, they teach you the different types, the dialects, the this, the that. And you know, people say Patwell and shout out to Ms. John at Sao Paulo Community College because she's the one who's like, you know, Creole is a language, you can't just call it a Patwell, we went into the whole thing. So now you could find queer dictionaries, you could find lessons online, schools are about to start teaching it. And you know, it takes it so far away from what people would have seen the language as prior to, I guess, it becoming more sophisticated. All right, all right. You said so many things there's a lot for me to follow. But I think what I want to ask you about, I know you made a statement during your intro about it's underutilized there. So I just wanted to know what's your thoughts, your youthful thought on Creole in San Lucia, not just as a language for now, but as a culture. Do you think we appreciate it enough? What's your thoughts based on your observations? So what we need to understand is that Creole is considered a mother tongue. And what I mean by that is that it really helps build the identity of young people across the diaspora. We need to understand where Creole came from. Creole came from 17th century French vocabulary mixed with the different various languages of Africans. That was their way of trying to communicate with each other because as slaves, there was not really that dialect for them to speak in. So that is where our Creole heritage came from. And then, well based on what my grandmother and my great-grandmom said, it was used in their time as a way for the older generation to have a discussion amongst themselves, without the children understanding. So yes, you will have children, but you'd want your children to learn English because at the time English was really the main language in San Lucia. But the older folks kept on speaking Creole. However, what we've realized, well what I've realized right now is that sometimes Creole is being looked through a microscope, I would say. You would more find young person using Creole when it comes to slurs and you know, through what we call in the solution dialect, mepui, people. Well, let's be honest, mepui in Creole sounds way better than in English. But at the same time, what we need to understand is that we are literally killing the language that has really been supported by the branches of our forefathers. And something that we need to understand as well is that people look down on those of us who speak Creole because it's like, it almost seems derogatory to them that, oh, I'm speaking to you in English and you're speaking to me in Creole. Or we're trying to make, we have English stories. So why would you speak in Creole? And it's so strange because stories like to hear us speak Creole, but our own people don't like to hear us speak Creole. So it just comes from the place of ignorance, I would say. And you would find that you have a lit a lot of persons with high portfolios in society who do not really practice the Creole language. And you would find that in the school setting, you know, if you speak Creole or you make a joking Creole, you send to the office, like it's those miniscule things. So really and truly has society become too in depth to really and truly the importance of Creole in the solution context and the contribution to its culture, I would say definitely so. I think that's such a valid point you made about having things communicated at higher levels of society. I think it was so important during our fight against COVID-19 that we had these messages going out in Creole that updates every day and the information on how you could protect yourself from COVID-19 because we have to admit there is a section of the St. Lucian population at this point in time who does not speak English. And that's not something to be ashamed of. That's something we need to celebrate and we need to meet these people where they are. Yeah, we need to because sometimes they will not really know what's going on. You see all those releases, they're in English, not it's like almost like they're they're sectioned off from society. I know you mentioned you learned from your grandmother and your mother. Have they ever like echoed those sentiments of being like felt like left out because like sometimes information is not catered to them because they speak Creole or you know anything like that. Most of the older generations feel that we as young people are really out of touch with them. We tend to think that everything we need to do with your technological standard when it comes to the use of English. But you need to understand their perspective where they came from. They came from a time where green banana well banana was called green bull and in those times I'm sure that well we had Cessna Descartes in that time for sure. She was really heavy in the Creole movement. So obviously Creole was really the main thing. So I would say as news reporters as anybody doing any show it would be very important if you have at least the Creole translation maybe in the transcript on the bottom of the screen so they can read etc. But then that's a different discussion. It's for me it's easy for me to speak Creole but it's a different thing for me to read Creole and that is where the national language policy that ministry was um thinking of drafting together with Camdo in 2021 when there was the whole um deliberation process with teachers across the Caribbean so that we could develop a language policy that would cater to the influence of the Creole language in the primary and secondary school would be very pivotal because what you find is that islands like Dominica, Magnick etc. they have the framework in place already. So it's just us copying that same framework however we need to tailor fit it into the solution education context. But what we need to be mindful of is that everything bears a course. So yes we may want to teach Creole language in our schools etc. However we need to be cognizant of the hidden course behind it. You would have to develop your teachers and teachers. Teaching development is already something that sometimes in the education system you find that you don't get those many opportunities for growth as a teacher. So for me to learn to speak Creole etc. I mean it's costly. The other thing as well is certification. How how valued would be the certification in Creole and which countries would be willing to accept it. So would it be a partnership with alias for said would it be a partnership with ui so it becomes something more stream based when we look at it from the students side as well. Would business hire you because you speak Creole whether it be for news or would there be a special news segment for young persons and its own in Creole or radio. Like we need to look at how widely we can utilize Creole in the solution diaspora. When it comes to music and upcoming artists using Creole to connect with young people because some of the things that you would see in Creole sounds way better. We have a Creole dictionary that's the start already if we have a dictionary it means that there is a framework in place already. All the words can be found in the dictionary so why not make Creole something that is being taught in schools and it's very pivotal that we do it from a very early age because children are like sponges so the more drops of water you give them the better they take it in so that's firmly my belief. Now you made some points about teachers and about young artists now recently on Crossroads we did feature Desiree and we know that he's been putting in some work this Creole season and he did put out a video I believe we have packed so let's check out this recent release from Desiree. Music It'll be okay. But why are you crying? So it's all right. Very very talented, Desirelle is very talented and we have to admit that one of the ways that young people are reigniting that interest is really trying to understand what these songs are talking about because you have to learn the language you know what the artists are saying, whether you're listening to Denry Segment, whether you're trying to tune into Calypso or whether you know you're checking out projects from great minds like Desirelle. For sure, for sure. So do you think that music has a part in, I guess, attracting young people to learning the language? Would you say that? In a sense, I would say yes, however we need to understand that although we get the harder some things, we tend to learn something from some certain things. But yeah, Creole in the artistic side of things is very important. I actually have a play, I was contacted by Dr. Travis Wicks to contribute to a play. It's called Mue Mue Monrypo, something of that sort. But it's strictly in Creole and I'm really excited to be working on that piece. And I have done a few other pieces in Creole as well, but those things are out of St. Lucia. But yeah, it has, there's a lot of room for growth, but as much as there is room for growth, we also need support. So that is where Ministry of Youth Development and Sports would need to come in and Ministry of Culture, etc. So that's where the business community would really need to tap in. You find that the business community is more focused on youth who have already established themselves. So upcoming youth who maybe want to broaden the language in Creole through artistic means, they do need valuable contributions. And as young people, we need to learn to support our own the same way that we support others out there. And that is something that, let's be honest, it doesn't happen in St. Lucia at all. But I know, I know recently, you know, one of the, on October 17th, one of the Flower Festivals, like I'm La Marguerite, I was, I was but you know, but often sometimes maybe I would say a forgotten part of our Creole culture. In schools, I know, especially at the primary level, there's this heavy emphasis on it, you get dressed up, you do whatever. But then following that, it's like, okay, you know. So what are your thoughts on the Flower Festivals? I'm going to, before you respond, we have to mention La Wars as well. Right, right, right. So what between these people, we want no smoke? I'm on the purple team, but you know. So that's a very interesting question because as a child, I participated in a lot of the La Marguerite and La Wars festivities. And it was really interesting for me because it teaches you the folklore of St. Lucia, I would say, and really the history behind it, where those two would battle out. And well, you don't really see La Marguerite flowers around. But at the same time, we need to understand that we're changing. We're in the 21st century, things that would have made sense before, don't really make sense now. And we live in an age of technology. So young people wouldn't be interested. So now it would be up to the creative industries or the people who put on the shows to think of ways of how do you get those types of outdated ideas and idealists to really be inculcated into the technological age. So that is where you would maybe have young persons now marketing what is really La Wars and La Marguerite. So how do you get young people on board? How do you get the creative industry on board? Do we update the dress? Do we update the roots? Is there a certain venue? Or do we make it like a play where you have La Wars and La Marguerite fighting? Or in the school, is there a specific day where you have children just really learning about the meaning of La Wars and La Marguerite? Do we explain to tourists about it so that they come on those days because we put on plays, we put on activities. A lot of things that we find wouldn't make money. Tourists would be so interested in it because these are things that they are not, they are not, they have not really been introduced to. And the sad thing about it, I always say Saint Lucia has the potential to generate a lot of GDP. But then the people behind the ideas and the institutions behind it, they have really a one vision mindset. So really and truly, that's out of it honestly. Like young people really need to take the grass. Even at the circle level, have you all seen anything when it comes to La Wars and La Marguerite? At those institutions, no. I mean the teachers would dress but then do you encourage the children to dress? Like there are so many things that we can do. I mean you don't do it forcibly but I mean once you, the thing is once you constantly do it, it becomes ingrainings to one memory. I think that's certainly a discussion to have in terms of cultural tourism because when you think of things that you can only find in Saint Lucia, these are things that bring people in from all over the world. You could have people coming in to do documentaries about it. You need to celebrate your own culture before the rest of the world can celebrate it. I mean there's so many things you could celebrate in Saint Lucia. The rarest snake in the world is found in Saint Lucia. So there's just so many other ways you could branch out. Yeah we could and I find that something we don't do enough until someone else recognizes us. We don't want to do it ourselves but I wanted to touch on something you mentioned. I think it's very important. You spoke about like evolving culture or updating it. Based on conversations I've had, you know some, I was still not to say this but old heads, older heads, they're a bit more, they're a bit more resistant to the culture changing. If someone is trying something new they would say, you know, you're changing you know what made us us. So is that something that you have been exposed to, is that a mindset you have experienced or anything like that? So what we need to understand is that as much as we may want to introduce new concept into all ideas it doesn't necessarily mean phasing out the old concepts. The old concepts would better serve the older generation. The new concepts would better serve the new generation. So we need to find a way to balance the two. When we create activities etc we need to look at it from a two-way point of view. Create something where young people would be engaged and would be interested in coming to unsupporting and something where the older folks would come to into supporting. Let's take Juniquial for example. Juniquial has a really rich cultural past however you would find that young people and older people participate really well when it comes to Juniquial. So the questions we need to ask is why is this and what is in the Juniquial framework that we can implement or institute into other activities across the island. When we look at, I remember when it was time for jazz, jazz was a huge thing. That is where our creole heritage would really come in as well. When it comes to theatre, arts, plays etc that is something we can look into as well. Also when you have assemblies, maybe a creole assembly once a month, miniaturists and sports could create a newsletter in strictly creole something that the older persons can go to. Recordings of the older generation giving their lives and what they did in creole only so that we can archive that information. There is so much that we can do to keep history alive but history is slowly phasing out I would say and we don't really cherish those moments. Even just having a youtube or a tiktok page as a ministry of education would really serve well but then older people are more into the visual things. So going into the community, doing outreach programs in creole, even when you have the health fairs, marketing that in creole is pivotal, having the doctors speak to them in creole. The same way we try to have that balance when we have persons speaking French, Spanish etc and we're trying to understand what they're saying and we're trying to accommodate them is the same way we have to accommodate those creoles. See all valid points you are making and what a place to make them other than on crossroads because we know that the people who need to hear us certainly listening and if they're not listening they're getting sent a link right now for them to tune in. Right now we'll do full quick break you're watching the eighth episode of crossroads your favorite show on national television we'll be right back. Welcome back and of course you are watching crossroads like Terim likes to say your favorite show on national television I know that is true for a lot of people. Today we have a very special segment added to the show where we're giving you a chance to win some prizes just to answer some very simple creole questions of course this show is about having discussions among the youth and we are joined by another young person who's on your face crossroads. She's here for the first time but I don't think this segment is the right one to get into everything about Miss St. Auge but welcome Krista how does it feel to be on crossroads? It feels good. Hi guys I appreciate all the madras around it's beautiful. It's fantastic I feel like part of the set I don't think everybody else got the memo but I'll look up for you all this week. I'm the only one I didn't get that's fine. All right so we're calling this our creole trivia segment I can call it my brainchild right so we have four questions for the viewers and I'd like to invite the two of you to possibly you know bring some you're not allowed to give away the answer but if you know the answer in your mind you could give me a little thumbs up or something. If I know half of the answer can I give you a thumbs up? Right. We're not taking half answers. Okay all you to do that as well we need the full answer so the question will be asked in English but you need to answer the question in creole you can comment the response down below or you could send us a DM on Instagram that's the Ministry of Youth Development and Sports on Instagram indicates this is an answer for crossroads and your answer in creole or quail right? Right so question number one this should be an easy one if you've been watching the local news you got you ready? I'm ready I'm ready. Question number one what are the two host communities for the Jeune Quaiol 2022? Now we might know the response in English everybody will know the names of these districts in English but you have to answer a quail you can put those down in the comments below or like I said DM us on Instagram Krista you look like you're you're thinking you're thinking I'll give I'll give one hint one of them is the best community oh my god I'm showing his colors and I am from one of those communities so that's just a that I think that's a very big hint your your the viewer should know I think so okay question number two now I think we got a hint from a very popular song last year around the quail season um question number two is how do you say pumpkin in creole they're singing the song already I know they're already singing the song yeah I can see it already you know certain people from denry you're not allowed that's something artists from denry he's not allowed to participate we have to draw the line somewhere should I give a hint for this one I go ahead um shout to I think that's a that's a that's a hint that's a very big hint so yeah that's a very big hint remember we have prizes up for grabs so be part of our creole trivia here on crossroads do you think you know the answer let's continue you know I have questions for the two of you okay so what is a a zabuka zabuka uh now you know what it is I feel like this thing's too easy for me so I'll give um I'll give you a chance you should go ahead I feel like I was boasting because he does not do that no I I know the answer yes it's um avocado you forgot the english version it's an avocado you know that happens to me as well I'll know the name of something in creole but trying to speak to somebody outside of sains wusha yeah and I tell them oh there's a what are you talking about yeah but I got it though I got it good job good job cream and krista what is uh you have your fingers make sure she knows I can't disappoint my grandmother okay okay you walk by a table and you hit your talo what part of your body did you hit my talon yes my talon is it my talon is it like my foot what part of your foot yeah what I mean what's the name you see you know it's your heel but you know close enough but you knew the word in creole exactly now our third question is another part of the body I think we're out fourth though I think we're out fourth question okay we'll talk about comfort on another episode our third question for our viewers remember your first question was what are the two host communities for june quail 2022 your second question was how do you say pumpkin a quail your third question is what do you call your knee in creole now we do not want your whole leg we do not want your shin we do not want your thigh we want your knee specifically you comment that down below you dm us on instagram and your final question you want to need to know two things for this one but I think the first one is very easy to know we've had so many songs letting us know what this is and of course you would have been learning this from primary school preschool maybe but you might have not learned it in creole we want you to tell us the colors of the saint lusion flag in creole in creole it might be too easy for you to get it in english yeah I mean you know take a good look at the crossroads set but anyways some of the colors are present yes so those are your four questions your four questions are what are the two host communities for june quail 2022 what do you call pumpkin in creole what do you call your knee in creole and what are the four colors of the saint lusion flag now you don't need to answer all of the questions soon but you can answer all the questions to flex and let people know that you do know your creole but it just takes one correct answer for you to go away for a price of course we will be announcing those prizes on the next episode of crossroads so our viewers know when to come collect so can I can I like after the show answer the question karim is bad from participating but you know think of your answers we obviously have some more treats for you and recently we did feature another local talent her name is omiga and she was such a pleasure to have on crossroads she did a cover of one of the greatest creole songs dasa hill i'm willing to die on this is one of the greatest creole songs taken this cover from omiga swim presses with her vocals i think she did a great job with that song sometimes you know when they say the remake comes it either great or it's not so great and i think she completely blew it out of the water and yes i said water because she had that fishing club in there she might have to take me on a trip with her of course crossroads is a collaborative effort we could never deny that so we just want to take a moment to say thank you to everybody who has come on board to make crossroads a success that includes everybody who's been featured on crossroads so far and of course our sponsors that is the ministry of youth development and sports government information services i see gis people already looking at me yes i see all of you and we appreciate spending time with you on the set every single week of course thank you to kfc as a well who has been a sponsor of us from day one thank you to event saint lucha for helping us set up our beautiful set i think you like events is always there for us it looks really nice from our first set to the new set we have already transitioned to and of course thank you so much to dbs tv where you can watch the crossroads rebroadcast on saturdays at 10 a.m and just one of those sponsors you mentioned was the ministry of youth development and sports and as you know the ministry of youth development and sports has a lot going on a lot of work um so i think it's now time to show mid motion the taiwanese government granted the sum of 146 000 ec dollars which will go towards the youth economy to assist our young people in becoming active participants in wealth creation and nation building team volleyball saint lucha are the 2022 eastern caribbean volleyball association champions they won the british virgin islands in straight sets the ministry of youth development and sports hosted a retreat for physical education teachers the retreat comes amidst efforts by the agency to foster greater working partnerships with all of its stakeholders saint lucha takes food place in online intercontinental prison chess championship it was their first showing but inmates of the bodily correctional facility place food following participation in the online intercontinental prison chess tournament great stuff the ministry is certainly keeping busy and we love to see that you know as taxpayers but of course we are continuing on with our theme youth and creole i said youth in creole in my mind you know by youth and creole and something we spoke about earlier on was the involvement of youth in music and the ability of music to entice young people to learn more of the creole language of course so they can understand what their favorite songs are saying and of course we always know that people who are behind the magic so our newest guest joining us on the crossroads set for the first time hopefully not the last time is jason da rius jason how are you feeling being on crossroads i am feeling good i am feeling awesome i'm enjoying the vibe i'm enjoying all the madras and everything around me so it's a vibe all right vibes of course of course okay so jason i'm sure everybody is familiar with your work i can say that confidentially but they might be thinking of you as jason da rius you know bringing them the news in the evening and the morning and the midday times you know every time all throughout the day you know he keeps busy but you're having a different capacity you are here as a producer jammin entertainment so you know tell us a little bit about you and how long you've been a producer right so like you said before people might know me from the news um that's the nine to five i was keeping informed um but in what i do in my free time or what my passion is rather is i have a love for music i'm a producer um you might know the name jammin entertainment or head attack we be jamming in any i guess vocal song and um we've well i've been in production for probably about 12 to 13 years now it's been a long journey working with many different talents and like i always tell people send lucia has a wealth of talent and i feel like at the time that i started like these people need an outlet these people need to i don't know you need to see the talent that's in lucia has to offer so i feel like there wasn't much of that going around so i was like okay what what is needed what is necessary okay we don't have much recording studios there's um actually how something happened so we could expose that talent to the rest of the world and lo and behold we played a very significant part in the development of denry sangben being very consistent in that i guess genre of music and just bringing the vibe the music the creole energy to send lucia and the rest of the world by extension i've worked with the likes of well my main artist would have been um serban smithy and a lot of the other guys in the denry basin um pablo everybody and i've worked with talents a lot of his so-called talent are in st lucia um you have your seed deals you have your azuras you have cupid i've worked with a lot of the artists there and a lot of the producers and beat makers there as well um so for me it's just uh keeping that vibe keeping that energy alive and just setting the mood and the atmosphere for whatever season we're in here in st lucia all right amazing and you're doing fantastic work from the time you started mentioning the artist i think people are finally clicking oh yeah we be jamming because we certainly be jamming in and now we're jamming on crushers i wanted to say that as well now in light of june quay all we know you and the artists you work with go the extra mile to put out creole music every year umpa eating something different every year um there's a new dance i remember everybody was doing bipod for a long time you know so bansuas known for his moves and he decided to you know bring us in so we're happy to be part of the process i want to know from you as ja denry as well um what role do you think it plays um making creole music for me making creole music especially in this day and age where you will hear people say in that the creole culture the creole heritage is kind of dwindling or dying down especially amongst our youth i mean it creates that outlet for a lot of our youth and a lot of our newer generations so actually learn a lot of the music learn a lot of the phrases a lot of the connotations um and it's just a way to keep that culture keep that energy keep that heritage alive erin sen lucha and for me in particular when we actually sit down in a session and actually write creole music because it would be difficult to actually spell any creole words what we do is just write it down make sure we understand okay this is that word this is how to say but what we actually go and probably upload to streaming platforms or youtube or something that we have the actual spelling we'll have to go in the creole dictionary and it's like a learning process for all of us at the end of the day and um certain things like like was mentioned before like it would have a a better taste a better sound a better feeling um sounding in creole as opposed to english you get more vibes out of it and even in my daily dialect as well i still speak um i throw a little bit of creole in everything that i do certain times and it just helps to like really ground you as a sen lucha more or less so making that contribution to a sen lucha society i mean it's really heartwarming that we could actually do that and actually set the piece for our creole season and just keep that flame burning for our creole culture here in sen lucha so it's a really heartwarming thing all right and you you spoke up you said something very interesting you said setting the piece yeah now i would i don't see historically but historically creole season we know something really always happens religiously jammin mighty serbans of course yes um so just speak about um that relationship um you have with those guys and actually making the creole music with them because i think at this point it's something that people actually look forward to like what is jammin and serbans going to put out this yeah it was a creole anthem for this year so just so just speak about that and that's what we've been getting a lot you know like every creole season people look to us to actually see what what the mood will be like for junior creole what the mood will be like for creole heritage month um but it's been a long journey really it started with the whole i guess beginnings of denry segment just throwing in the creole into all the music that we do but in terms of um doing full on creole music and folk music i mean denry is a very cultural place we have all around these times right now we have solo bands playing we have that la wars and amaguris festivals coming through we have a deep sense of culture and pride in our creole language in in those communities so it's only natural for us to pick up and let and share to the rest of the world like i said um so for us is just to put that in our music and people gravitate to it instantly because that's creole that's us that's in lusia so why not so for us like i told you 10 11 12 with i cannot even remember how long we've been doing this um but throughout these years um we found that there was really a lack of like digital creole music or a feeding of some sorts so what we would do is literally just probably just take that creole because you know in the solos you have the drumming right and remember in school you used to be drumming on an uppercase eruption so what we kind of did was just to digitalize that and having those creole connotations or those words from our forefathers being parts of those solo groups we just kind of took that um information took that kind of vibe and just incorporate it into that music because we figure people would love that too i mean we love it why why wouldn't people love it you understand so it's been a journey it's it's been a thing we just kept tested and continued doing it up until the point that rule more or less the only i guess production i was putting creole music out for a time but the lawn bill thankfully now a lot more people are doing it and it's a good thing that more people are jumping on the bandwagon especially our youth um we see dove i'm putting out creole music you see a lot of um like tally boy a lot of the other guys actually contributing to the creole season as well um i mean for this season i think we put out probably 10 or more tracks and we still have some some material to put out still and i don't know every time you you hear your song being played on the radio especially in creole and everything it like i said it's just rewarding and i wouldn't have it any other way honestly so that has been the journey and that's what we'll keep doing just as our contribution to keep that creole thing alive now you did mention you've been doing this for a while and i have to throw it back we have to throw it back here on crossroads to one of my favorite projects that you had put out for the creole season it was one of the jammin entertainment quail medleys and it featured two artists who may not look quite the same at the moment but you will be able to tell who they are from this video let's check it out um Now if you enjoyed that and I'm sure you all did you can check out the full video on YouTube it's Jammin Entertainment Creole Medley and of course you said you've been putting out projects this year and there's still projects to come I mean Juniper is right around the corner people are getting in the vibe they're setting up their playlist so how can they check out the new music? Alright so for all the new music you can check out various streaming platforms you have your Spotify, Apple music and for the more recent ones while we put out in time for Juniper Creole because we don't have much time before they get uploaded we could always check them out on YouTube via the page Jammin Entertainment and all new stuff goes on there so apart from that just follow on Instagram Facebook and you should be updated with everything that you need to know about Jammin Entertainment. Of course and I think we barely scratched the surface with you so we'd hope that you would be a guest on a future episode of Crossroads as with all other guests this evening but thank you for coming on but for now we're going to take a short break because when we come back we have a very very special segment so just stay tuned and when we get back we'll have that in store for you. Wondering when the sands of time will give way to a tide of change and for yesterday and today to become a new tomorrow for a time when her son can kiss the cheeks of your loved one and her stars can twinkle in her honeymoon skies when her earthly embrace will reassure and calm your soul and her unique view can change your whole perspective. I think she has risen to meet new challenges and to provide safe harbor to all who reach her shores but her hopes and dreams still stand shoulder to shoulder a precious reminder of experiences yet to come numerous take you. Who let her sense of adventure set you free. Welcome back and thank you for joining us joining us again. Sorry if I'm a bit novy right now because we have someone else in the chair actually we have the brains behind Crossroads and his hair to make a very special announcement I have no idea what the announcement is but to make a very very special announcement so I would like to pass the floor to Barry our producer. Thank you very much Karim and I too am feeling quite a bit shaken up tonight I think it's a bittersweet moment for me being here I must say that I really enjoyed the Creole segment I'm still learning I'm still catching my Creole vibe but I'll get there but this evening I think it's only fitting that I appear here to say goodbye. Crossroads St. Lucia is losing its female host Jacques Wooding who's been with us from inception when we started in February of 2022 and we are bittersweet we are sad to see you go but we are also happy that you are going to new beginnings and so we couldn't let you go without at least a farewell and so I want to ask Krista to come and they say give people their flowers you can go ahead and present give people their flowers while they are alive and this is exactly what we're doing this evening I mean Karim how do you feel about this? Well can I hold this for you? That looks heavy you know well obviously you started with me and in fact you're the one who you know the audience may not know but the one who convinced me to be on crossroads so I like to thank you for that it's been exciting a journey certainly there are times where I may falter that you have picked up and you are really an integral part of the show I mean as always crossroads will carry on but we're just at another crossroads. I think the name is just hitting but we will surely miss you and wish you the best on you know your greener pastures. Any words for me Lucia? What do you want to say to send Lucia quickly? I just want to say thank you so much for always tuning in and thank you so much for making crossroads such a journey I've definitely learned from all the feedback we've gotten from members of the public it's been amazing working with the Ministry of Youth Development and Sports and amazing working with GIS I feel like I've met so many amazing people along the way from the people we've interviewed to everybody who's made everything happen backstage and I'm looking forward to see where crossroads goes after this you're not getting rid of me so don't take me out of the group chat. I'm still a part of the team I just won't be on camera anymore but I'll be watching. Yes is that a teardrop I see Carrie? I have no idea this was going to happen but thank you so much. The SSA Crossroads has we have two episodes in November and then we'll pull season one down but Jacques thank you so much the Ministry of Development and Sports on behalf of my Permanent Secretary Miss Caroline Eugene my Deputy Permanent Secretary then Director Miss Mary Wilfred who has been a strong pillar for crossroads and the entire team of the ministry of course our Minister who loves crossroads the Honourable Kensan Kazimé we say thank you so much for what you've brought to this set and the lives that you've touched and we wish you all the best. Thank you. I think St. Lucia thanks you. I think I should just for one final time say thank you so much for tuning in St. Lucia this has been Crossroads Episode 8 and of course the team is looking forward to seeing you on the next episode but for right now have a great evening we'll see you next time.


John. Hey, welcome, everybody. I'm glad you're here. My name is John Hamery. I'm the president of CSIS. And this is a rare privilege this afternoon to welcome Congressman, our two Congressmen, Congressman Kirk and Congressman Larson. It's privileged in two senses. One is these are two intellectual leaders on matters relating to China, US relations with China. That is worth coming to hear alone. But also let me just say it's rare when we see a Republican and a Democrat that want to partner together to shape a shared consciousness about directions for America. And I just want to say a personal thank you to both of you for doing that. I mean, this is a there was once a time when that was a norm. It's not a norm anymore. It needs to become one again. And I think you're showing all of us how it can be done. So we're really grateful that both of you are doing that. My colleague Charles Freeman is going to moderate the discussion. It's going to be fascinating. You all, your role, of course, is you've got to think of pretty good questions. I mean, a quality of a session like this is directly proportional to you. So please be active and engaged after we have a chance to hear them. But let me turn it to you, Charles, please. Thank you both for coming. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Hamery. And thanks really to Mark Kirk and to Rick Larson for being here just back from China for the fifth time. That you were there. I've got their official bios in front of me, and I'm going to read extensively from them. But if I were really going to do that, then we'd kill the time here. But Rick Larson represents the second district of Washington and been there for a while. He's from a family that has been in that district for more than a century. So his roots are deep there, but his roots are also increasingly deep in the US-China relationship. And both he and Congressman Kirk from the 10th District of Illinois, a long-standing member. And really, these two people together, despite their different party affiliations, have come together on a very, in my view, most challenging issues of our time. And that's the US-China relationship and how to make it work at a very dynamic time. It's not often that you see a rising power and a de facto power come together peacefully. And it's specifically not that often that you see people approaching China not from the position of panda huggers or dragon slayers, but really coming in the center and approaching it with as much balance as they do. I want to turn it over to them and let them give some background on their most recent trip. We'll start with Congressman Larson and then go to Congressman Kirk and then we'll open it up for discussion. Great. Well, first off, let me thank the CSIS for helping to put this together for Mark and me. I want to thank John, Dr. Hamery, for all your help, Charles as well, for not just moderating today, but for your advice over the last several years on the work that Mark and I have been doing. I'll thank Jasper McSlarrow, who works for me as well when he was on the trip, and then a guy named Louis Lauder who works here at CIS, CSIS who used to work for me and was one of the two staffers who helped kick off the U.S.-China working group a couple years back. About four years ago, actually four years ago this month we created the U.S.-China working group as a way to create a space in the United States House of Representatives where our members of Congress could discuss China-U.S. relations, various relationships that we have, to recognize that we have more than one relationship with China, and as well at least be open to open to some ways of engaging this relationship and these relationships in a way that was more constructive than not. This most recent trip put in a plug as well for the National Committee on U.S.-China Relations, which is the oldest organization of its kind in the United States. It was the third-party sponsor of our trip. Guy named Steve Orlins is the president of the National Committee on U.S.-China Relations, and this is the third time that National Committee has sponsored this trip. And we've gone into a lot of interesting places in China as a result of the last several years. We've been out to Xinjiang to visit the Kyrgyzstan border, Erumchi and Kashgar, a couple of cities we visited. We looked at counter-narcotics and counter-terrorism issues. We've been to the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region to be the first delegation, first official delegation to visit the space launch facility, the manned space launch facility in China, and that was a couple years back. It was in January. You've ever been in the Gobi Desert in January? You know, it's a pretty cool place, so we gutted it out, made our visit. But this was sort of an East Coast tour. I jokingly billed it as the Global Economic Recession Tour 2009. The trip had a couple of goals. Before I go over those, I want to make a very specific point. And that is that there's really no one country that the current administration is engaging more in 2009 than China. And that puts the trip kind of in context. If you look at Secretary Clinton's trip to Asia, which included China, saw the meeting in London between President Obama and President Hu. Before we were there, Senator Kerry, Chairman of Senate Foreign Relations and Speaker Pelosi were there as well. The week we were there, Secretary Geithner visited. This past weekend, Deputy Secretary of State Steinberg, was there, Todd Stern is a climate change envoys visiting or has visited. Can't keep up. Strategic Economic Dialogue in July here in DC, the Joint Commission on Commerce and Trade. We'll be taking place sometime later this year. Discussion of our Secretary of Commerce and Energy, Locke and Chu visiting possibly in October to discuss clean energy and trade and clean energy and jobs. There's discussion about the President going before or after Singapore. And of course, presumably in December, the SNED will follow up in Beijing at the end of the year. So that's a pretty heady context, I think, for a trip for two members of Congress who are collective service is 16 years, I think, 16. Well, if you count the months in this cycle, it's 16 years and 10 months. But this trip, as I said, was focused on the economy. And a couple of key goals in this trip was to assess the impact of the global economic crisis on the Chinese economy to understand better the Chinese government's response to the crisis. And then, obviously, to make an assessment about what that means for U.S. policymakers and what can we tell our colleagues in Congress. So a couple of things. You know, like I said, our third trip together, my fifth trip, Mark's actually been there more than five times. But we've been able to, fortunately, develop a relationship with both our U.S. embassy folks in Beijing and throughout the country. And let me pause right now by saying that the folks in our State Department and serving in China are doing a fantastic job and a fabulous job with that relationship. And we got to meet and work with some of those folks over there. And as well, we got to meet with a lot of folks in China that are pretty important in this relationship. Vice Premier Wang Qishan is the head of the Strategic and Economic Dialogue, the chairman of the China Banking Regulatory Commission, Liu Mingkong, Commerce Minister, Cheng Domingue. We met with their PBOC governor, People's Bank of China, their Federal Reserve chairman, if you will, Zhou Chaochuan. And in Hong Kong, we met with Donald Tseng, as the chief executive, as well as a variety of other folks. And I think if I'd give some assessments and I'll turn it over to Mark, I think generally speaking, I'd say that the U.S.-China relationship is strong. And the Chinese leaders that we met with indicated a continued willingness to work with the U.S. to further the bilateral relationship. You know, there was some discussion back even last week about Secretary Geithner's, the response Secretary Geithner got at the University, at Peking University from college students. Well, I've never talked to a group of college students that didn't take me on as well. So I don't think that's a very accurate assessment of the trip, because I think our assessment of the trip was that the Chinese leaders that we met with were very interested in seeing the United States be successful, that they looked to the United States to lead the global economic recovery. They were not looking to themselves to lead the global economic recovery, they're looking to the United States to lead that recovery. The other thing I'd say is that the Chinese economy's long-term shift from its dependence on foreign exports to more of an increased domestic investment and domestic consumption or creating domestic demand is gonna be long-term, definitely. But I think it also creates opportunities for US-based businesses that both serve the Chinese market directly, as well as small and medium-sized businesses that are suppliers in products and services or other things to these other businesses that are locating in China to serve that Chinese market. And that's why HR 2310, my bill, the US Small and Medium-sized Business Export Promotion Act is a bill that members of Congress should get on and co-sponsor, that's my commercial for my bill. By the way, I think some appropriators are working on that to say. If I'm not mistaken, I'll let Mark talk about what he's doing on that. I would also say this, that leaders in the US and China see the strategic and economic dialogue as the forum for the, to set that strategic direction of our relationship, but the Joint Commission on Commerce and Trade is the forum for creating those win-win situations. So the dialogue is there to help define the challenges and define the problems and define the opportunities, and then the JCCT exists in order to help solve some of those problems and solve some of those challenges, especially on the economic side. And I would say this as well, that members of Congress look to the S&ED and the JCCT for results, and that's a message that we delivered, of course we delivered not only to our own government, but we also delivered that message to the Chinese as well. That's important that the JCCT and the S&ED deliver results from a member of Congress perspective. Anticipating the question that might come up, any concern that the Chinese expressed about inflation in the United States were tempered definitely by their confidence in the dynamism of the U.S. economy. Again, getting back to that main point, and we heard this over and over again, Chinese leaders looking to the U.S. economy to pull the global economy into recovery, and also a lot of confidence in the U.S. economy. So just a couple of things that, and I'll turn it over to Mark as to review. First it's important again that the dialogue, the S&ED and the JCCT produce results. Second point is that as this long-term shift occurs in the Chinese economy, I believe it does provide some opportunities for us, but we have to take a long view, does provide some opportunities for U.S.-based businesses to great jobs here at home, serving a Chinese market. The U.S. companies already showed that they can succeed there, in fact in South, Amcham, South China said that 72.5% of their members actually serve the Chinese market. They're not there producing for export back in the U.S., but they're there to serve a Chinese market as well. I guess I'd just say in conclusion that this trip was, this trip, well I think we've been in three, like I said, three of these trips. I work hardest on this trip and I've ever worked, and I work hard because we had to bring our A game. It'll end up later, history will judge, if you will, if we brought our A game, but we've been able to get into a position where we're meeting with some folks who are in a position in China to make some things happen and to communicate from a member of Congress perspective, from people who have to go home every weekend, and respond to the 710,000 people that we represent, what it means for us to have to be responsive to, in a democracy, to the people that we represent and trying to communicate that to the leadership in China, I think is an important, certainly from my perspective, an important and desirous position to be in. And hopefully the trip was a success in many of the people's eyes and we'll get a chance to do this again. Well, as you know, the U.S.-China working group has evenly balanced about over 60 members of Congress and we try to keep all three warring tribes of the house in our group. That would be panda huggers, dragon slayers and the more extreme panda slayers that are definitely in the house. Rick and I long believe that the most important U.S. diplomatic relationship in the world is with Beijing for the 21st century. And so let me just touch on a couple of points going from West to East on the items that we raised during our mission, which was definitely the hardest working mission that we've had and at a key time when China's becoming so important for the United States. First, and as a part-time military officer, I was most interested in some cooperative programs with the United States and China to help out ISAF's supply problem in Afghanistan. Having served there in December and January, we definitely knew that when we had problems at the Torquham Gate or Spin Bull Dock with another Taliban attack, there was no lettuce in the Chow Hall and you began to see supply problems then expand from there. The proposal that we brought forward was that the Afghan government be able to make fuel and food purchases in Western China to help out the economies of Kashgar in a room sheet for the benefit of the Afghan government but related to that, the ISAF mission and of course the U.S. military. Knowing that based on our previous mission, in many cases the United States and China are up against the same enemy, a very well-funded radical Islamic narco insurgency now taking on the Public Security Bureau and People's Liberation Army on the Chinese side of the border and taking on ISAF and the Afghan government on the other side of the border. We received some pretty positive signals on that and we've had some detailed conversations with Ambassador Holbrook afterwards and I hope that the Hube administration and Obama administration are able to open up that gate. We certainly saw this weekend how the Russians now have talked about permitting lethal supplies going through Russia to Afghanistan and so we're ending into a virtuous cycle of supply to ISAF from the North rather than the unreliable supply lines from the South. When we were in central China itself, I originally worried that Guangzhou or southern China would be Cleveland East. Abandoned homes, shuttered factories, et cetera. We did not get that impression. This is a place undergoing 5% growth, not 9% growth, but growing nonetheless. And we received a surprising picture, especially from the Amchams in the South, that export-derived industries were doing quite poorly but industries who were serving the central Chinese market were doing pretty well. I would note that the US stimulus package is only 20% infrastructure, 80% social spending. I think the way the Chinese government designed their stimulus is much more intelligent. 80% stimulus and only 20% social spending. And you could see that demand hitting the Chinese market reflected in the bottom line of US exporters that were operating in southern China. When we were in Beijing, I think the dominant concern privately expressed was about the dollar. And the dollar concern comes in two forms. One, the tremendous borrowing that will be required by the United States, especially after a passage of the stimulus and the omnibus with a $1.8 trillion borrowing requirement just this month alone. It's about $160 billion a week that the Bureau of the Public Debt has to borrow. And one of the messages I had because we need to build trust and confidence and our number one creditor is that the budget numbers that the US government have put forward should not be believed. The Congress is actually gonna spend quite a bit more than what's in the budget. And the healthcare bill probably being the lead driver of additional spending by the Congress. Given the appetite for the public for tax increases, if we do pass major social legislation and repeat our general practice of waving budget guidelines prior to the passage of final omnibus appropriations bills, and I speak as a member of the Appropriations Committee, the borrowing requirement of the United States will actually go up from its published numbers. That's extremely likely. And that obviously is of concern to China that is already between Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the regular T bills invested over a trillion dollars in US debt. But by far the more strong concern that we heard was from the brand new policy in January of this year of quantitative easing, which is a technical way of saying that the Fed, one part of the government is buying another part of the government's debt, largely with printed money. And we heard across the board in private, substantial continuing and rising concern that I think was accurately reflected by the students at Peking University. That happened in public where senior Chinese officials wouldn't do that to a senior US official in public. But it's clear that China would like to diversify from its dollar investments. As I said to Wen Qicheng, loan us a billion dollars and you own us, loan us a trillion dollars and we own you. And it puts you in a unique point of vulnerability that I understand given the quantitative easing, printing of money that the Fed is doing that will make of course each dollar and especially each bond that has already been sold far less worthwhile. My hope is that the Congress takes a different direction that we spend less that will dramatically reassure our creditors, China being unfortunately now the number one, and also a group of congressmen and I sent a letter to Chairman Bernanke asking him to stop the quantitative easing buying of US debt by the Fed. As one Chinese key banker said, this is illegal under Chinese law. We would not be allowed to do this. And I frankly think it should not be allowed under US law as well. When we look at the overall establishment, we raise the issue of expanding the US diplomatic footprint in China. And we're very strongly backing what we think of as an interim policy. Originally given the problems in Tibet, I pushed forward the effort to fund a US consulate in Lhasa. Unfortunately that has now become a break point where we can't have any other consulates or diplomatic facilities until Lhasa is built. I actually don't hold that position. I think the United States should expand, especially in just about every city, over five million in China. And we don't need to call these consulates. We could call them as one country has called them diplomatic annexes or presence posts. These are very low cost posts, $1.5 million each according to me a member of the State Department of Appropriations Subcommittee. But one that listens to the US export community that says we follow the flag and we will go where US consulates are based. And so I think it's very important to expand that diplomatic footprint and a concomit footprint should be built by the Chinese in the United States. This is the most important diplomatic relationship is established. Overall, I think we felt that the two sides are undergoing some strain but handling in an extremely adult and professional fashion. The one point of discord that I would point out is on climate change policy. The Chinese government has the view that at Copenhagen they should mandate compulsory licensing i.e. the stealing of all intellectual property related to energy, climate change, control, energy consumption, et cetera. This would be the largest theft of US intellectual property licensed by a UN treaty ever. It also flips the politics of a climate change bill in the Congress. Right now a number of green industries like the climate change bill coming out but if an international treaty sanctions the theft of their intellectual property then there will be hardly any green jobs built in the United States because once one of your wind turbines or your water power machines is able to be copied the intellectual property standing behind that will be seized under a sanction by the Copenhagen treaty and put forward. Rick and I are working on an effort to see if we can generate some strong US opposition to that because we feel that climate change legislation is necessary but it's very important in the end for this legislation to lead to green American jobs and the licensing, the theft of intellectual property through a Copenhagen treaty in a provision called either technology transfer or compulsory licensing would be a dagger in the heart of the green economy of the United States and so we hope that the United States and China can basically work that out but work it out with a full defense of US intellectual property with that. Wow. Can I underscore that point? From a democratic perspective we saw the speaker attend, go to China the week that we were there and the theme there was energy efficiency, global climate change obviously with Copenhagen coming up at the end of the year and the potential for a trip and the discussion of this trip with the Commerce Secretary and Energy Secretary to talk about clean energy and trade. The US can be part of China's solution for the problems that they admittedly have with energy efficiency and emissions and I think legitimately we want to be part of that solution we're the two largest emitters of the CO2 in the world but we also have businesses in the United States who have the innovation, have the technology have the know-how to be part of that solution but we need a couple being part of that solution with being, making that part of the solution on the trade deficit as well and we are not gonna be able to successfully in my view turn our economy here in the US to be more of a green economy unless we can make that part of our economy this green innovation help that green innovation part of the economy take advantage of being part of the solution internationally and that won't happen it cannot happen if compulsory licensing or tech transfer or whatever people want to call it is part of a final treaty, it just won't happen so we are working on an amendment right now to the foreign relations State Department Authorization Bill and see if we can get that in or at least raise a profile I'm hopeful we'll be able to get it in the end of the House version and I don't want to comment on the dollar inflation Mark and I probably differ a little bit on emphasis here and I certainly agree that concerns were brought up on inflation, concerns were brought up on the dollar but also I'd have to say that leaders were looking for, leaders were met with were looking for a signal on the deficit which is something only Congress really can provide and it is a wake-up call to the United States Congress about spending, they were not looking for the deficit to be zero next year but certainly looking for the deficits over time to come down which I think is in the interest of the United States as much as it's in the interest of anybody else so certainly something we ought to do second, we had Bernanke before the budget committee last week and several of us asked the question about the ability to unwind some of these programs I think it was the People's Bank of China Governor who asked what is the exit strategy and so that we asked that question of our own Federal Reserve Chair and it's all on record, you said the ultimate exit strategy is our ability to raise interest rates from the current zero to something higher than that. The use of the short-term programs that Fed put in place can be shut down if they're not being used and some of them are not being used, interest rates on reserves can be set to a level that provides the appropriate incentives to banks but he also said it believes that the Fed and I think we'd all agree with this. Well, most members of Congress agree with this point. Some don't, I think Mark and I do. The Fed needs to maintain its independent authority to do whatever it needs to do as it exists under the law and authorities it was given when it was created. So that's sort of the nutshell response on the questions that people brought up with regards to concerns about inflation and the dollar. Yeah, I'm in the position of being unhappy with the Fed but I do not want Congress to take it away. But there are some members of Congress who do. Well, it's interesting to see how the discussion of the U.S.-China dynamic becomes such that China quickly becomes a mirror for some of the own things that we're doing and I think it's fascinating to sort of go through this discussion of how much we both need China whether it's on Afghan issues or on the flip side on climate change and you went through Rick and laid out a series of events of engagement over the next year. There are obviously a series of questions whether it's the climate change side or we clearly need each other at the end of the day. There are some non-traditional issues that are out there that may get in the way. We haven't talked about Taiwan's. Things are going better there. We haven't really talked about the issue of Tibet but clearly if President Hu and President Obama are supposed to meet in November we've got a meeting between the Dalai Lama and the President here in October. That didn't go so well when President Hu was supposed to meet Sarkozy. How do we manage some of these frictions on the way to get to the end game of wherever that is? We forcefully raised the issue of North Korea and for me in the past I've been to every province of North Korea. I know the government fairly well there and the point that I raised in the Foreign Ministry was while the United States and China have built a pretty strong partnership and the old military alliance between the PRC and the DPRK seems to be a distant memory a UN Security Council resolution has little chance to move the DPRK much in my view as opposed to the critical interruption of fuel supplies from the PRC to the DPRK that happened in August of 2006. In my view that was the central event that brought the DPRK back to the negotiating table because they're so heavily dependent on the PRC for petrochemicals. That's the point that I made at the Foreign Ministry and you can wrap it up in whatever you want. Obviously this is Northern Asia so we don't do a press conference and we don't see what it is. We just call it as they did before technical delivery problems but the message is sent just the same. With regards to North Korea, my impression of that meeting is that we had at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is that the Chinese will probably go farther than they want to and not as far as we want them to on a new UN resolution. That the actions by Kim Jong-il were surprising to the Chinese and that it showed and perhaps showed the Chinese leadership that talking about dialogue and diplomacy and discussion can get you only so far before your neighbor does a nuclear weapons test. And as a result, I think the Chinese, again my assessment would be the Chinese leadership was embarrassed by that, more embarrassed than in 2006 and that as a result, they're gonna move, they'll move farther than they wanted to but probably not as far as we'd like them to. With regards to these other issues and I don't mean to say other issues like they're not important, the three T's, right, Taiwan, trade and Tibet. These three T's tend to be very problematic in the U.S.-China relationship. Taiwan is probably a little bit off the hook in terms of those three T's because President Hu and President Ma are like best friends forever right now when they're acting like it. With the introduction of charter flights, those charter flights set to become scheduled flights in July between the mainland and Taiwan, things seem to be moving pretty well between mainland and Taiwan. Honestly, I think U.S. policy would, U.S. response would be to say that's a good thing. Anything for stability in the straight relationship is positive. With regards to trade, I think it's still gonna be obviously problematic but again, the trade discussion might be subsumed a little bit more by the global financial crisis right now. Although there have been, there has been legislation introduced on the Hill, several pieces of legislation to try to deal with the trade issue, the currency issue by going to counter-radial duties and tariffs and so on. But again, my assessment is that those bills won't go very far, much like last year. They didn't get very far. Tibet will be problematic and I would not want to, I don't mean to be naive in saying this but I certainly would not want the U.S.-China relationship to hinge upon whether or not the president sees the Dalai Lama sometime this year or not. But that will partly depend upon what the administration thinks and does and partly depend upon what the Chinese government does in response. There's not much we can do to control that response and just knowing that the Tibet issue is a very high-profile issue for the Chinese government, something that most Americans don't quite fully understand and some do fully understand. But I want a very good answer on that issue. Ultimately, part of the human rights, part of foreign policy in the United States is the human rights plank. It is and it's not going away. We'll take some questions. We've got about 20 minutes just to start here. We've got some microphones going around so who has the mics? Oh, just come on down to the front. I guess we're not going to do the moving mics today. Louis was feeling lazy. Could you introduce yourself? Sure, my name is Ali Wang. I'm from the Carnegie and Denver International Peace and the China program. Two questions. One, on the domestic front, what is your sense in discussions with Chinese leaders of their greatest concerns at their greatest domestic concerns, whether rising unemployment for college graduates, the health care system under him? So what is your sense of their greatest concerns at home? The second question on the international or global front is that I think that there are a lot of, I wouldn't call it a consensus necessarily, but there certainly are. There is a sense among observers of Chinese politics that the United States is losing influence in a lot of parts of the developing world vis-a-vis China, whether you look at Latin American countries, African countries, Asian countries. So what is your sense of what the United States should do to engage Chinese presidents in the developing world? Is it a hedging tactic, a cooperative tactic? What should the US be doing? Thanks. In our discussions with the Chinese leaders, it became very clear that the top three priorities domestically are the same top three priorities I have in the Markhands, jobs, jobs and jobs. Unemployment issues continue to be the number one priority for the Chinese leadership. It's sometimes surprising to me that I need to at least explain my views to my colleagues in Congress that President Hu does not wake up wondering what 300 million people in the United States think of him. He wakes up wondering what 1.3 billion people in China think of him. And right now with the economic downturn, especially hitting hard on the East Coast, and then some of that drifting into the interior, the Chinese leadership has chosen to take a, it might be a very strong stand with their stimulus package that is heavily focused on what they call fixed asset investment or infrastructure, as well as domestic lending. So a lot of money going into the banks presumably so those banks can lend to companies or to individuals. And that's how they're gonna address it. Now one of the problems that they face though when we have this discussion is that for them to get where they eventually wanna go, that is creating some domestic demand, they're a long way from getting there. They're a long way from having a health insurance model like the U.S. has. They more have like a health, seems like a healthcare reimbursement model.  So that's why people hoard their money. Retirement, pension scheme, retirement scheme, long way to get there still. So in talking with one of the provincial party secretaries about well, what's your plan locally? And he discussed a few things that would sound familiar to us, training for college students so they graduate but immediately go into training program until the economy turns around. Some unemployment benefits. But then after that it gets into this discussion about on the other hand then some of them go home. And because a lot of these folks are migrants from provinces, more rural areas, they go home and their family has a piece of land and they go home and farm it. And it's like that's part of the social safety net right now. That, they can decide if that's a model that's sustainable. I would suggest that it's not. The biggest domestic concern I picked up was university graduates from the East Coast provinces. And what do we do? And they do have a regional problem with that. And the government is trying to deal with it but I think that's a significant concern. And with regard to foreign policy, so far I don't see an effort by China to really build a significant counterweight influence. I think that's a mischaracterization of what's happening. What appears to me happening is an enormous investment in commodities as a huge inflation hedge. And the most recent investments was their decision to buy an entire second strategic petroleum reserve, which is one inflation hedge. And then to buy $80 billion in gold, which is the equivalent of two Fort Knox's. And you would only make those decisions if you're expecting dollar inflation than they are. And on the international, by the way folks, if you want to get the microphones to get in line, unless no one wants to ask. Regarding on the international front, I would say that the US needs to get out in the world for the sake of the United States, not for the sake of any counterweight that China. Countries will do what they will do. The United States should get out there and be with countries in the world for our own interests. Not because China's out there, or any other countries out there. Yeah. Hi, Jill Perlow, Physicians for Social Responsibility. You mentioned that our response to the DPRK's two nuclear tests and their continuing progress on their program has, we rely a lot on China, and China's willingness to work with us on our policy response. So I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that and what incentives we actually have to help get China on board with our policy response. Thank you. I just start by saying, you know, we've sanctioned, to use a technical term, we've sanctioned the DPRK out the ying-yang. So there's not a lot of extra impetus there, but in a long dinner we had with the chairman of the NPC Foreign Affairs Committee, former foreign minister, we sort of went through the obvious points, which is with the United States having exhausted its economic sanctions, with no military option of any kind, this center of instability is largely a Chinese problem. And if you don't control the problem, you become the father of the nuclear weapons program of Japan. That, you know, one thing that a lot of international observers have missed is the Japanese decision to rely on a civilian nuclear power program. A, and B, the decision to reprocess the fuel from those reactors has turned Japan into the largest owner of plutonium on planet Earth, 1.5 tons. So as one wag said, Japan could turn into a nuclear power at a long weekend with enough plutonium for 7,000 warheads. And if a significant and continuing threat emerges to the Japanese people, and China does not control that threat, then Japan will build a deterrent. And that would significantly counter things against China's long-term interest. So it is absolutely in the interest of China to control the nuclear weapons program of North Korea. Yeah, I sort of seen what Mark said in a different way. The question was, what incentives do we have to get China to be involved in the DPRK or North Korea more actively? I don't know that we need to do anything.  China's policy is that, as is ours, ours was further, but is, you know, they don't want a nuclear peninsula. Well, they're gonna get one. Unless they do something more, unless China does something more, they are going to get one. And so I think it's getting to a point where they need to decide if they're serious about their policy or not. Bonnie? Yes, Bonnie Glazer, senior fellow with the Freeman Chair here in China Studies. Thank you both, Congressman, for coming today, sharing your remarks and for all of your contributions to the U.S.-China relationship. I'd like to ask two short questions on security issues. You talked a bit about your conversations with the Chinese on Afghanistan, and of course, we increasingly think of the Afghanistan question as inextricably linked to the problems in Pakistan. And so I'm wondering if you raised, with the Chinese, who of course have a very close alliance with Pakistan, what kinds of things they might do to shore off stability there. My second question relates to the military confrontations we have been having, not just with Navy ships, but also with fishing vessels with the Chinese in their exclusive economic zone as was reported earlier in, I believe, March, and then again in April with the U.S.-N.S. impeccable and victorious. And whether you found any willingness on the part of Chinese to engage in discussions with the United States about agreement on safety procedures at sea so that we can avoid a real collision that might result from the kind of dangerous activities that we have seen taking place there. Thank you. I'll take the second question. We did discuss this with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I'm sorry, the issue of the impeccable and the victorious with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and I think ultimately we need to shift that conversation as well to the PLA and PLA and since they're the ones out there and they kind of run their own foreign policy shop as well, but what we said to them is that we understand that you have a definition of what your EEZ is and the rest of the world has a definition of what your EEZ is. So we're not going to debate that right now. We are going to lay out the problem that exists when private commercial vessels, in this case fishing vessels, are interfering with the progress of military vessels and the kind of situation that could result from that. With miscommunication, say there's an altercation, say there's a collision, that can only get worse if something like that happens. So we think that, so we want to say we think that we at least ought to have, while we can continue to debate about where the line ought to be on the map, let's figure out where the line ought to be in the water for how these vessels are going to relate to each other. And go from there. So that was the basic point that we tried to make it seem to be open to it. They're going to continue to be open to it. They wanted to get in the discussion about where the line ought to be on the map, but I wasn't going to buy it. I told them that they weren't going to convince me otherwise. So why try? I'm too hard headed, so. We had brief discussions on Pakistan and obviously a repatriation of 10 Uyghurs recently and in many ways I think they have the same perceived threat that we do, so there's a great deal of commonality of interest in Western China, Central Asia over what the United States and China can do, not just regarding the Afghan supply lines, but assistance to the Pakistani government, et cetera, relief, especially. We've got now millions of displaced people out of the SWAT and other districts and China can play a significant role there. As a Republican, let me just give praise to the Obama administration. If we had left the South China Sea and basically agreed to a 200 mile territorial water, if you look at the lines, it basically encompasses islands claimed by three other countries. So if you agree to that, you then spark two other wars. But then every other country agrees, ceases that territory and you will see the sea lanes of the entire world on which our oil and international trade disappear overnight, where you'll have conflicts in a dozen different locations if you surrender. So the Obama administration did the right thing, put the Chenghou right next to victorious. We're the largest navy in the world and the Chinese correctly perceived that there's a lot on their plate right now and a military confrontation with the United States was not their number one priority. We said, we're not interested in doing anything different and hopefully you're not interested in doing anything different because common action on the dollar, common action on stimulus, common action on all the other bilateral. By the way, we haven't even talked about the deployment of the Food and Drug Administration to China, the deployment of the Consumer Product Safety Commission to China, both which the China working group has got to start happening. I mean, this is a relationship which has gone from ping pong to 180 different issues now, if not more. And they, at least at the MFA seemed to fully recognize that and share a bit of that priority. I'll give you the floor in two seconds. I just wanted to ask, one of those 180 issues is cyber security. Correct. Can you talk a little about what you discussed or didn't discuss while you were there? Well, we didn't actually discuss it there. It's probably, you know, I'm already thinking about the next trip and what might be on the agenda for that trip. And I think since in the past, we have visited the PLA, but we did not, this particular trip, is probably a laundry list of issues of the PLA that we'd be interested in talking to them about. And I think they'd be very, very uninterested in hearing from us about it. Great. Hi, Nick Reno. I'm an intern here with the Berkshire at CSIS. I was just curious about some of the recently reported military procurement choices for the Chinese have sort of had the indication that they're very geared towards possible confrontation with Taiwan. And I was just curious exactly while you were there, if you picked up on any sort of changes in sort of their stance towards that particular issue. I would just say that I think after 1996, the PLA and the government made a decision to procure the means necessary to handle the Taiwan problem militarily, but not necessarily making the decision to do that. And now that they have a government in Taipei who they work with very closely and very well, any kind of military action is highly unnecessary and interrupts every other agenda. And so things are going very well with the Taiwan relationship. Well, Rick and I were there watching CCTV. They were de-mining Kinmen Island because Kinmen had made the choice that here I am three miles away from key markets that I wanna be able to trade with to boost up my island. And meanwhile, Taiwan is dozens of miles away. And it's just one further aspect of the increasing good relations between Taipei and Beijing. And if I could say that I think that that we can overthink the Chinese military modernization, but I think we need to think about it in the right way as well. I don't think it is surprising that they're trying to modernize the military. It's fairly antiquated, has been fairly antiquated in the way they're organized and what the platforms they have militarily. And so you would think that, like most of every other country in the world, that they would make that kind of investment. But the second part is how we respond to that. And I think that we need to respond to it rationally. That we need to look for ways to utilize it to our mutual advantage. For instance, if they're going to be experimenting with operations other than war, OOTW, then for instance, they're peacekeeping missions. They're deployment destroyers to the Gulf of Aden on anti-piracy. They're gonna be doing those kinds of things that we need to be thinking about how can we help them because we want every other country to do these kinds of things too. And in response to a question that we asked, that I asked Secretary Gates a few weeks back in budget hearing and our services, I said, do you envision a day where US and China would be maybe operating side by side on perhaps some peacekeeping or some other operation, military operation? And his straight answer was yes, of course. So I think we need to be careful about how we look at it, but I'm also one of those guys who, I'll hedge with the best of them as well. We need to consider what they're doing and look at what they're doing in terms of how that might impact us, but not necessarily be so focused on that that we forget to see how can those capabilities be leveraged into doing the kinds of things that we like to do as well. Jasper, Rich, do we have time for one more? Yeah, we like to think of ourselves as your constituents, but we realize there's other constituents that we have to work for. Cal, let's make this the last question. Thank you. Cal Cohn with the Emergency Committee for American Trade. I appreciate both of your comments with regard to the issue of compulsory licensing. Our own group in the broader business community is very concerned with this issue, not only as regards the issue of climate change legislation or climate change policy, but more broadly, you mentioned you are thinking or putting together an amendment to address this and one of the bills going forward. Is there anything you can share with us with regard to what you plan to include in the amendment? And then related on the whole issue of what countries in the advanced developing world are willing to do to advance economic development more broadly, did you get any sense when you were in China that the Chinese are willing to do more in terms of opening their own markets to less developed countries than they in order to spur progress in the DOA development agenda negotiations? Many are suggesting that one of the reasons why the DOA Drowned is not moving forward as quickly as possible is advanced developing countries like China expect to be given to rather than to give in particular to the least developed world. Thank you. I didn't get a lot on DOA from them, but with regard to compulsory licensing. Over time, I hope the president does see the political danger to the Waxman bill and the Copenhagen Treaty that if the treaty licenses the theft of US intellectual property across an area that may encompass 15 to 20% of the US economy, then the effect of the legislation will be to increase energy prices in the United States and authorize the theft of intellectual property. At that point, large companies probably led by a GE that's tried to reposition themselves, switches from a supporter of the legislation and the treaty to an opponent because you've just licensed all of their technology to be expropriated by others. When you've seen this compulsory license has been mainly used in one other area which is regard to AIDS medicine. And there you begin to see, okay, somewhat of a compelling case because we're talking about someone dying. But with regard to climate change, et cetera, I think at that point, you're talking about a whole swath of the US economy. And if we permit the theft of our technological edge, then don't we accelerate us falling behind even further? I would say as an investor, if you told me the Copenhagen Treaty permitted compulsory licensing, then I would tell all of my funds, find a non-climate area to invest in because the US company will not be able to keep control of its own innovations. They're about to wrap that up for me because on the flight back from China, I was making that case. He got that line from me. On the age argument, it's easy, you know? Yeah, it's right. On the age argument, it's easy. And climate change is not so easy to make from climate change. Not so easy at all. But we can share the language with you. If you want to see the language, we're working out the finer details of it right now. It's always a negotiation. But I was saying, and we're going to wrap up here, I just want to reiterate the point I made at the beginning that there's no one country right now that the administration is engaging more than China. If you look at the schedule that has been and the talked about schedule through the rest of the year, 2009 is really shaping up to be a year of this administration engaging China on a variety of issues, whether it's trade, climate change, the financial crisis, the reintroduction, looking at the suspension of the military and military exchanges. From top to bottom, these 180 plus issues, whatever that number is, there's no one country that right now we seem to be engaging with more than that of China. And I think in this time, that is the right approach. Great. Thanks very much. I really appreciate both of your time. Thank you guys all. Thanks.