that has really come out is about making sure that we are engaged with the people and the matters that people care about and none more so particularly in co-ops all of our members you know we did this research before COP26 and there's another session later specifically about what co-op they're doing but you know that care and concern for the community is up there so it's my absolute pleasure today to welcome to discuss something that's critically important and we all need to get behind which is the climate and ecology bill so we have with us Dr George Mcgavin Dr Amy McDonald we have Deborah Darlington from the cooperative bank we have Barry Clavin from the co-op group and we have Dr Amira Sowers director of programs and research from climate outreach as our moderator over to you Amira thank you thank you so much Rose and thanks everyone for being here and online it's really great to be here at the congress I've personally felt really inspired I wasn't fortunate enough to be able to join yesterday but I was looking through the timetable feeling just super inspired at what is the potential and what co-ops are doing to really drive action in different areas of society I work for an organization called climate outreach and our sort of mission is to create a social mandate on climate action by involving and engaging with people from all walks of life different values and identities and helping them see themselves in the climate story and know how to take action so it's really great to be here today and just to give a brief bio of the fabulous panelists we have first we'll hear from Dr George Mcgavin he's an entomologist zoologist an explorer he's a very accomplished academic and broadcaster having made many programs for BBC TV and radio and the discovery channel which have engaged people on a variety of topics about our natural world and also his own personal journeys he's an honorary research associate at the oxford university museum of natural history and a research associate of the department of zoology of oxford university then we will hear from dr Amy mcdonald who is director of the zero hour campaign zero hour is basically the campaign group behind the climate and ecological emergency bill or CEE bill which we'll be talking about today in in quite a bit of detail and this is the only proposed legislation before the UK parliament that ensures a comprehensive and joined up approach to the emergency which is something that we desperately need so it's it's really important to discuss this and have you here today to dialogue with us about the potential for that Amy has a background in deliberative democracy and has a PhD from the Chelsea College of Arts then we'll hear from Deborah Darlington director of brand marketing and communications at the cooperative bank she's going to be sharing insights on how the bank is engaging with the CEE bill and the climate emergency more broadly and she's been working at the co-op bank for 14 years now so has a real that sort of rich history of insights to share with us about the organization's journey and before that she worked in the fashion industry and finally online diving in today we have Barry Clavin senior ethics and sustainability manager at the co-op group he's also going to be sharing how the group is responding to the climate and ecological emergency bill as well as what what the organization is doing to back the bill and he's been working at the co-op group for quite a long time as well so he has many years of experience to discuss with us and bring to the table today and of course we want to make sure that this is relevant to everybody who's dialing in online so we want to create space for Q&A and discussion a bit later once we've heard from the speakers so if you're online and you want to share a question with us that you'd like to answer please send it a tweet with the hashtag co-op congress and then we'll do our best to pick it up and answer it if not during this session afterwards so we're going to start with having George up at the podium please and I have a sort of question for you which you're you've graciously offered to answer for us today with all your experience so George you've got extensive experience working on ecology and wildlife and you know better than most of the impacts of the climate crisis on our nature and wellbeing can you share with us some of the key insights into the crisis facing us there's a lot of information out there so what do we need to know yes thank you my my job today is to scare the bejesus out of you that that was what I was told to do um this picture on the screen here I want you to just take 30 seconds to look at it and appreciate that this picture was taken in 1968 December the 24th 1968 by Bill Anders who is an astronaut on Apollo 8 this is Earthrise so Apollo 8 is orbiting around the moon and this is Earthrise as it appears to the astronauts this should have been an absolute game changer for us as a species because this little blue dot this little blue marble is basically what we've got there's nothing else and I don't think many people really thought about it at the time they have done now in the time I've been alive we have done the most incredible things we have sent things into orbit to the first one of course as Sputnik we're now sending instruments to look at the furthest reaches of the cosmos I mean and this is 400 years after an Italian guy first raised a lens to his eye and went oh that's time three that that's rather good that's only 415 years ago and we have got the first integrated ship there at the top we've we've got smallpox off the off the map that's that's gone atom bomb of course we've worked out that the code of life we can even make new life forms that have never existed before we have searched happily without success for any extra terrestrial individuals who I'm sure might not be terribly eager to share with us first heart operation we've worked out where we came from our first direct and ancestor and we've of course been on the moon all of that in a very short time now this is a graph of how many humans there are on earth I was born in 1954 there were 2.4 billion of us on earth and in the time that I've been taking breath it has gone up to just about 8 billion 8 000 million individuals now that is a lot of individuals and this actually you you have to bear this in mind when you see the next few slides which of course explains why the problem is why we have a serious issue on our hands and also in the 50s in 1972 when I was doing my second year in my degree at Edinburgh this slim volume hit the bookshelves and began to undermine what we thought of our what we could do in the world and it basically said it was written by some very bright MIT grad students in a very clear dispassionate way and it basically said you can't go on business as usual cannot go on forever and they reasoned it and they argued very clearly and they predicted that a business as usual scenario would lead to environmental and economic collapse sometime in the mid 21st century well how prescient were these kids 70 1972 exactly 50 years ago and so I'm afraid it has come to pass habitat loss rife wilderness areas are now reduced seriously around the world pollution the amount of plastics which when I was born never existed we never had plastics in 1954 it's now 350 billion metric tons of plastic produced a year that's equal to the population of humans every single year that's now a massive issue invasive organisms we take things around with us from A to B by accident or design they cause a problem and of course over over exploitation in the seas particularly all of these immature sharks here are immature of an endangered species that is protected not protected and of course over that looming over the whole thing now is the specter of climate change we are getting warmer of that there is no doubt nobody nobody now thinks that it's an artifact nobody thinks it's caused by anything else other than anthropogenic effects and this is the areas the world which are between one two or up to four degrees hotter than they wear on average and you can see that's pretty much the whole of the globe this is an easier way of showing it this was the brilliant Edward Hawkins who devised this stripe effect so you could see you'd visualize immediately just how things are going 54 back here fantastic no problems and then suddenly I spent my whole adult career not studying animals and plants and thinking how wonderful they are but worrying being in a state of eco anxiousness for the whole of my adult life and the reason of course is very easy to see if you go back far off in history and you look at what's happened you find that as the human population increases the number of extinctions increases almost in step and it's happened everywhere and at every time some people think there was a time of man's history of human history when we lived in harmony with the world it's an illusion simply we were able to live in relative harmony because there were so few of us our impact was minimal and it has always been that and now there are so many of us our impact is huge plantations of palm oil and soya bean around the world are devastating the most complex and biodiverse habitats the world has ever seen simply to put in face creams and crisps and that sort of thing and soya bean shipped from brazil to feed beef cattle that we to feed our insatiable appetite for beef it's a disaster and the loss of this one habitat which now covers only six percent of the land surface area reduced from a historical 12 percent is the biggest immediate threat to global biodiversity and yet banks around the world are funding it every year the last year before 2.6 trillion us dollars was lent to projects and corporations to use specifically in destruction of habitat and it's when are we going to realise when our governments when are our governments going to realise that without the earth's natural you know capital which we need we simply will not be able to survive well we've had reports after reports my goodness that's the easy thing to do listen guys there's a problem okay we need a report let's get a report let's get lots of reports every single report says the same thing that does goop to report fantastic report written by hundreds of economists and biologists and everybody that ipbs assessment all say the same thing it's going the wrong way we have lost connection with the natural world we take far too much from the natural world the natural world cannot cope with the demands we place on it and people are getting mad people are getting angry young individuals particularly because they see where it's going they are taught at universities and colleges and they're angry with us at rightly so why did you allow this to happen well if we just sort of wandered into it blindly I suppose I don't know but they are angry and with good reason well this is the biodiversity issue in a nutshell the black thing lying there it's going down down down and we have a choice we can go on business as usual in which case it will continue to sink and sink and sink we can do a little bit of about it a little bit we can do a bit more of conservation work we might flatten it out a bit but what we want to do is to pull it back up and we know what to do we know exactly what we should be doing it seems we just aren't able to there are two words two phrases that make me go apoplectic and this is them this is the two sustainable growth which of course is an absurdity you cannot have sustainable growth you can be sustainable or you can grow you cannot do both any degree of growth with a pot of finite resources is ultimately unsustainable and the other one is save the planet the planet I would remind everybody is absolutely fine it's been here for five billion years it will continue for another five billion years until the sun an average g2 star sucks it up and swallows it but it's doing fine it what's not doing fine is us what we should be thinking about is not this we should get into everybody's head now that it's not about this it's how are we going to save ourselves that is the key point is this where we're heading I think it is like currently this is a farmer in China how are we doing for time this is a farmer in China who grows you know fruit trees there are no bees left no bees left in this area because of pollution because of pesticides she has to pollinate every single flower with a little brush on a stick is that where we're heading this is the jungles in South America this is a rainforest fragment in a sea of soybean is that where we're heading is that what we want is england a green and you know a pleasant land which we we all imagine it is no it's not it's placed in the lowest 12 percent of countries in the world whose ecosystems and biodiversity is intact that's a scary fact i grew up thinking england and scotland and uk was a beautiful place it's not it's wrecked but we can change it we can change it and that is why i support the climate and ecology bill the only chance we've got and the only piece of legislation which proposed legislation which might ensure that the uk parliament thinks about climate and ecology in a joined that way this i'm afraid as far as i'm concerned is our only hope thank you very much thank you so much george that was really inspiring but also a bit of a shock i think for many you know where we currently are in terms of the situation where can people go to if they want more information about your work online email me all right over to amy so amy as the director of the zero hour campaign you're galvanizing people and institutions across the country to really sort of push on the government to get this piece of lead it's really inspirational honestly to see how much collective action you're driving and we'd love to know a bit more about what you're up to and how we can get involved sure thank you so much it's great to be here so thanks for inviting us along we're really really privileged to be here um yes so my name is amy i'm from the zero hour campaign calling for the climate and ecology bill so our campaign is running using a mass mobilisation approach so this means that was sort of galvanizing energy across different sectors across political parties and across the uk and this is a model of campaigning it uses a private members bill so it's a proposal for a piece of legislation put forward by mps put forward by peers um that calls for real concrete change um so we're gathering this momentum and we're using a model that's based on the big ass campaign and this campaign in the end led to the climate change act great so we know that it works it works we can win and at the moment where we're at with our campaign is that we have 152 different mps and peers supporting we have um had 200 different councils proposed most motions and support of the bill which is really fantastic and we have around about 25 000 individuals who've signed up many of whom are campaigning actively with us um but always room for more to come on board so do join up we're also working with lots of different organisations you may recognise some of them up here um so we work with um over 450 different organisations some of whom just backed the bill and others who are working more closely with so in the lead up to cop 26 we were working with lush and um toast ales who work on a circular economic model um so we're working very closely with them and since March 2021 we've been working with the cooperative bank um who've been partnering with us on events such as town halls we've come fresh from tewkesbury where we've been pushing on the conservative np at Lawrence Robertson last night so yeah that was very fun we've been working with the bank in lots of ways which i'm sure will be drawn out in this presentation today um radio days handins and all sorts of things so there are many ways to get involved and also actually you know our campaigning is really about getting involved with grassroots movement and constituency action so if you are interested in signing up as an individual or an organisation we've had representatives from companies coming in and directly lobbying MPs with us so do get involved so um i just wanted to take this time as well just to quickly run through the content of the bill so you know a little bit about what it's actually about as George was kindly saying i mean one of the unique aspects of the bill is that it deals with climate and nature together so we know that we can't the two are inextricably interlinked the two sides of the same coin and climate experts say that if we don't have healthy nature then we just won't be able to reach any of our climate targets we know that nature and healthy ecosystems actually lock in and store carbon from the atmosphere and they also help us deal with some of the worst shocks um from climate such as flooding and things like that um so the bill i see is having three main parts the first part has a climate target and a nature target the bill then talks about how to fix um our global impact and thinking about international responsibility and then third part is critically about public engagement so our climate target is to commit to a carbon budget for 1.5 degrees celsius and the government themselves say that if we go over 1.5 then we could lose control of our climate for good which is obviously terrifying and we're actually getting really really close now so this is saying that we must commit to our fair share of the carbon budget the amount of carbon we can put into the atmosphere to remain at 1.5 and at the moment our pathway gives us about a 50 chance if the whole world were to do the same so that's obviously less than a flip of a coin which is very very scary and we know that the government are still investing in oil and coal projects and that we're on track to miss all of our carbon budgets going forward so they're just not acting in accordance with what they know um we also call for the reversal of the destruction of nature by 2030 so as George was saying it's quite shocking that actually the UK is in the bottom 12% not in Europe but globally for the deprivation of nature and current legislation the environment bill asks for us to halt biodiversity loss at 2030 but obviously if we halt where we are now then that's really terrible and actually we need to see that we're on this pathway up to recovery great so the second section of the bill international responsibility so we think about this in two ways again thinking about climate and nature at the moment we only account for our um the emissions that happen on UK soil but we all know that lots of the production of all of the stuff that we consume you know we have production and transportation and the disposal of all of these goods that happen all the way around the world and we need to make sure that we account for this by accounting for our import emissions we also need to think about our ecological footprint um we need to think about these as the real drivers of climate change and ecological breakdown um because we could perfectly allow the UK to be wild regenerate it would be beautiful but if at the same time we're consuming in the way we are and that we're destroying key ecosystems for example like the amazon rainforest then all that would be for nothing and the third part is about involving the public so we're calling for a nature and climate assembly so this would bring together a representative group of individuals from around the UK so it could be some of you in the audience would be working with experts with government bodies as well to draw up an emergency strategy to try and find a fair way forward so this is really important not only because it acts as almost like a huge education project of actually what is required what are the decisions lifestyle choices that we need to make to remain within these safe bounds um or to give us the best chance of 1.5 in the reversal of nature by 2030 but also of course critically um if the public are involved if we're involved it gives legitimacy to politicians to go further and faster yeah and i'll leave it at that for now do join us in this website zerohour.uk Thanks. Thank you so much Amy. Just be careful if there's a little ledge there thank you so much can we please have Barry up on the screen so we're going to have a bit of a discussion now and then we're going to open it up to questions um firstly Deborah can you share with us a bit about the cooperative banks journey i mean there's lots of initiatives out there on climate change and you know ecological action but what was it about this particular initiative that inspired you to become a key partner? Well thanks for the question and thanks George and Amy passionate presentations as always um well it's an exciting period for us as a bank as well so it's fantastic timing to be joining up with supporting the bill and obviously with zero hour that we um this year we actually celebrate our 30th anniversary of our customer-led ethical policy which is underpins the bank as approach to to what we do and what we stand for and how we operate as a bank um and it actually this week we've launched our refreshed six iteration of that policy running a really you know quite extensive consultation with our customers which almost 50 000 responded and took part in that which has obviously led to the development of the poll and over those 30 years of the poll and actually more so than ever in the most recent um customers have conscored power that led us to what's happening in consumers minds as well and you know 60% of the UK population said despite you know the challenging economic climate that's rising the cost of living the environment and is still top of mind and still a really pressing issue and actually many would pay a little bit more to have more sustainable energy and sources to be able to support that so we know there's challenges for all consumers and our customers but it's still right up there and I think what's really interesting is some of the lower um you know uh where you would expect those that are most tightly hit to be maybe having to balance their decisions so one's the most vehemently saying you know please don't ignore this issue because that's the last thing that we want to do because we want to think about the future but as a bank you know you know the the work the guys are doing and also the work that we've done through the policy reiterates from the decisions we've made on our journeys of bank over those years you know in 1998 we made the decision to stop banking businesses involved in the extraction and production of fossil fuels um and as you know we've always been a campaigning bank it's the hard you know the bedrock of who we are and why we exist and in 2006 we stood alongside Friends of the Earth um in campaigning for the Climate Change Act which it actually became law two years later in 2008 and over the fact last 30 years we've worked hard to become a really sustainable business and we've become carbon neutral for well over a decade so we're thrilled with some of those you know but we know there's more to do um more recently we've recognised as an urgent need to do more and it's clear that the collective responsibility to tackle the climate nature crisis is for all of us for banks for businesses for government and for consumers of course you know but it's about how we consume as you know George Riley said it's what we do how we act as individuals not just behind a business that will really make a difference and bring change into the world and that's why we're proud to partner with and and be an ambassador of the climate and ecology bill who were actually brought to our attention by our customers so it was them that actually um um responded to us and and you know brought brought to the fore that they wanted us to work and and to be the voice of this campaign so from the top down you know our CEO is absolutely passionate and has lobbied government to uh to challenge and to respond and to make a difference and and that to get behind this bill because we really have no choice and you know it's evident that we need legislation to address the damage that's been done and so we are urging all our customers all our stakeholders our colleagues all our partners to to really work with us and join us in back in the bill and there's a lot more that can do we you know we had the great kick off with the Tanol event yesterday with Amy um working together there and it's starting to really galvanize response because as you said you know I think it consumers are really really really worried about this thank you so much I mean it's so interesting isn't it you've really been pioneering and sort of leading even ahead of the government on net zero for example and you know we have these targets as a country we you know we have to reach net zero but I think 62 percent of the target actually requires some form of individual action or engagement so that means everybody in society needs to be able to take action and having businesses and institutions and co-ops work with the individuals and stakeholders that you engage with is going to be absolutely critical to making that happen um so just handing over to Barry now thanks for joining us online Barry um can you tell us a bit about the cooperative groups approach coming through okay yes thanks great I mean I probably not start so much about the cooperative groups approach but I think just reflecting on some of the things I've heard there in those great presentations which is I think it's easy for us to sometimes forget how much power and influence we do have as a movement um there are not very many businesses out there that would have done the things that we've done in terms of engaging with individuals mobilizing individuals uh to participate in democracy effectively is why I think we're all that so what was described by Amy and and Deborah there about the big ask in the climate change act I mean I was around when we did that and I'm sure lots of other people in the room around where we we have we we have got charges trains and charges coaches and some of the mobilized people we've got people are training thousands of businesses out to the Parliament we've walked alongside the members of the top staff we've walked alongside the members of the friends of yours is going to be not many businesses in the future I'm not many of those those United Nations with one corporate so long time and marching on Parliament looking for system and change not just self-deficitly, pridefully driven, motivated change so we count on half of brilliant things and that's what this is all about again which is we really want a quick genuine of what is going to change for the good for everyone for the long term permanently then this is the way we're going to have to do it I can do lots of things in my business I can tweak products I can tweak sidechains I can do this and that and it will make a difference and it is the right thing to do and I will continue to do it but we need to change things by a sensible progressive regulation that raises the bar for everyone in societies more broadly so that's why we're really behind this bill it's the right thing to do frankly we need to do more of it and if I was going to state something that may not be a popular thing to say in the room it's just my slight frustration is as much as young people care about these things they still don't get involved in the democratic processes as much as I would really like them to you know the proportion of young people voting is still you know it's the lowest age group of all the of all the ages we need to mobilise people we need to young people we need to get into a reflect and understand the power that they've got to change things not just about where you're going not just where you decide to shop not just which other cult you decide to trade with change things properly effectively and for the long term through your democratic power and that's what excites me about this type of initiative which is why we the cult movement are so good at this and we do it right even if dare I say sometimes there may be some pain involved not all of this comes free if this legislation comes in the same with the climate change act there was pain involved we did have to adjust our business to change things but change them for the right reasons for the long term and I'll just pause at that and because I know you're very keen to get conversations going in the room then thanks so much the question of young people is really interesting because we you know climate outreach does research with all sorts of different people and we've just done a survey of I think 6,000 young people across six countries in Europe including in the UK and he's absolutely right that there's a very high appetite just to see change for systemic change in particular to happen but there's also a high sense of powerlessness amongst young people and that isn't just young people that's across the population you know there's certain communities that have been sort of pushed to the side a little bit because they're not necessarily seen as progressive but actually they show very high concerns for nature in particular and could be a great sort of community segment audience to work with and journey so that they can see themselves in the story of climate change they know how to take action but we sort of need to understand our audience a bit better and start communicating a bit more effectively overall as the climate movement but staying with the role of co-op specifically sort of question first maybe for Barry and Deborah but if others have thoughts what can people in this sort of co-ops co-operative movement what can they do or how can they engage with some of the initiatives that you've mentioned already? I mean I'd start off by saying just really get involved you know where we've taken a starting point is to work with the teams but to really start to galvanise politicians to you know really try and raise the profile to MPs work with our customers to do the same and to become that voice and to activate our customers who we know are really passionate obviously about climate but also have a real voice and a point of view so we're trying to advocate them through things like the town halls but really using it through all our communications to our customers because I do think as co-operatives whose fundamental role is to improve society and to have a fairer more equal society then I think it's a unique position for the co-operatives to to be at the forefront of this change so yeah I think for me it's really about getting involved and I'd say you know if anyone wants more information obviously Amy and George but we you know we can help too we can help with materials that we've been producing and working on and you know we can point people in the right direction or whatever so more than happy to help him anyway yeah I could just lead you on from that I think that there are obviously really clear crossovers between the co-operative movement the environment movement and our campaign of course at zero hour so whether it's about you know being really values led also really seeking transformational change and thinking about models that put people on planet first and also we know of course that in the co-operative movement it's being really um integral to things like transforming the food sector and transitioning to renewable energy as well so we're also working away from these different angles um and so yeah as well we've just really urge you to get involved education education who said that but in in many ways he's right he was right we need education and we need it at all levels kids at school are very worried I go out to schools regularly and when they become eligible to vote I'm sure they will be doing so change is happening it is happening it's just glacially slow in comparison to what it needs to be this is a disaster that has been a long time coming it was 100 years ago when a Swedish guy said uh you can't go putting carbon dioxide in the atmosphere it's gonna cause an imbalance it's gonna warm the earth and everybody thought he was mad of course and now so it has come to pass of course so there's a lot that everybody can do we need to get nature and the natural world the supportive environment on which we all depend into our heads everything we do everything we think about we've become so divorced particularly in the UK and other western countries but become divorced from the natural world totally divorced we don't think about it we need to think about it all the time every day if I do this what effects that gonna have if my my council streams the verges and lying of fosates the drabias what effect is that gonna have if this church has on its lights every night of the summer attracting bats to death and everything else what effect is that gonna have what effect is that extra car journey gonna have we need to think about it individually and that's why education is is so important there will always be people who do not give a flying whatever uh we might not reach them we might not ever reach them but if we can get the majority so it becomes almost nobody would go into a restaurant now and have a fag it would be disgraceful and that's the point we want to get to thanks any thoughts additional thoughts barry I just reflect on that as well which is that I think sometimes people can feel maybe I'm talking a little bit about young people again here which is you can feel disempowered because you feel that your influence is associated with your economic influence um whereas you know your democratic influence is the same for everybody and that's what we just need to re-enthuse I think first I really want to re-enthuse uh people individuals in terms of the opportunity the great opportunity that exists by having your say and I think that again that's why courts the opposition you know at our agms traditionally uh no it's not the case now but traditionally co-ops would have the most sort of ethical and sustainable uh sustainability based motions raised at their agms it was a really light thing it got talked about all the time now most plcs get them raised but probably not in the same sort of way they get them raised because it's usually a negative thing to try and stop and do things as opposed to what you get with co-op agms is a really positive do more at the vex I just I just think that if collectively we can just re-enthuse people about the opportunity that's there to influence via their democratic vote their democratic impact as co-ops in broader civil society generally I think that would really help but then I also go back to you know what we're hearing here which is you know we're a business that's been around for 180 years and we've built ourselves basically on fossil fuels for 180 years I we have now got 18 years to reverse that because we've got commitment to get to net zero by 2040 effectively that means we take all fossil fuels out of our business in 18 years the scale of that and the speed with which we need to respond to that is mind-blowing but durable and has to be done yeah but we need that passion and drive from our members to continue to help us to push forward on this agenda thank you so much and we know from evidence actually that one of the best ways to encourage people to have agency on climate change is just starting with talking about it so talking about it in your at home over the dinner table with your friends at work is is it's a way that kind of unlocks a sense of agency and by starting to do little things in your work in your home with your friends with your family you become a trusted messenger on climate action and people around you start to feel more confident and we see this domino effect so we can all do it and it can be in our own way whether that's through our work or whether that's through at home and we're all you know it may not feel like we're having a macro impact but actually we are but I'm quite keen to open it up to questions now we've got about 15 minutes so um we haven't had any coming online so just to remind people online if you tweet with the hashtag co-op congress then we'll try and pick that up do we have anyone in the room oh we've got a couple of hands so I see three hands let's take three questions lady with the black top here first then the lady and the gentleman on the front table I'm Evelyn Godfair I'm one of the directors of mid counties co-op and I'm glad you mentioned voting there because it's so I'm also active in the co-op priority and stand regularly in local elections and the green issues are very big in in all the local government campaigning now so people are all aware of the issue and everybody seems to think that they need to put the the green things in their leaflets and and so on and yet the turnout at local elections is typically um 33 34 35 percent and it's just absolutely um depressing to see people not engaging um in in the democratic process but what I've noticed and then general elections maybe 65 70 percent is considered a you know a good turnout but that's still pretty abysmal um but what I've noticed from Extinction Rebellion is that they've been talking about people's assemblies and now you mentioned a climate assembly and it seems like an alternative way to engage people in politics but I'm wondering if that is is also not helping them engage in normal politics and and go out and vote so could you maybe be doing more alongside those that idea of people's assemblies and climate assemblies really getting the message true to people that they do have to engage in normal um you know traditional politics as well and vote and and and use their vote thank you let's take the other two questions and then we'll get the panel to address the ones that they can so the lady and the gentleman on the front table here please and then there was we'll take we'll take the next round after this one thanks thank you good afternoon everyone um first of all do you think so this climate change is a man made if so how we can tackle and how we can give platform everyone across the world to train them and and the second thing um I was in growing up nowhere I came to as a young age why is it not good idea to pick up in the Norway system to exchange bottles and plastic the cash when you buy drink is all the plastic you put your house and then you go closest the shop to put it and take a cash to buy whatever you need and how we can train the world for example I come from I came back from Somaliland recently and the east Africa as you're all aware of it at the road is keep coming back especially Somalia and Somaliland and the people was destroying the trees to use a charcoal to sell the world and how we can train them and to stop that because the long-term civil war they have no resisting government is and they are not dealing with and not only Somalia and Yemen everywhere so yes we're talking about all the time every one of us knows but how we can train them the school is as you mentioned special subjects and you say education it's indication it's important to tell everyone even if the people in back to home if they know what they're doing it's destroying and it's causing a lot of problems so how we can do together and encourage and give the platform the community thank you and then just a gentleman you've got a mic thanks is that on can you yeah there we are hi my name is glenn I come from an organisation called compass and we're a co-op development agency from Wales and it's our 40th anniversary this year and you're right we've got to have a new economic settlement for this to to work George we've got to move from that growth model to a sort of a well-being model and in Wales we're relatively lucky that we have some politicians who understand that and you know when a climate emergency is declared they make the decision to stop road building any road building in Wales so we've got little start happening but my question is because we know we have to do lots more we need to stop seeing all these concrete going up in city centres when we come up to the stations for example but how are we going to bring people with us when we have the emergency the climate emergency but also the cost of living crisis and we need to convince people who are really struggling at the moment in terms of just to get by on a daily basis that change is needed and necessary and we can have a new economic settlement that will look after people through this process because if we can't bring people along on this journey we're not going to achieve what we want to do so the cost of living crisis bringing people who are really struggling along with us how can we do that thank you thank you so much thanks for the broad range of questions there um there's a lot to cover there um so let's discuss is voting is is the sort of political system and creating a political mandate can we do more to facilitate that to happen and that's an open question to anyone who would like to speak oh yeah i'd like to see before anybody else starts thank you for three of the most difficult questions i mean it's like if i had the answers i would be head of the world bank world health organisation a few other major groups as well i don't know what the answers are as a biologist i'm an observer of the historical and the current situation that we face and it is enormous it is enormous a lot of people governments don't realize how big it is they just i wish there was an asteroid hurtling we could see it we could go oh there's the asteroid uh you know don't look up brilliant film actually absolutely tremendous if you haven't seen it watch it but there it is we can do something about it or not but this is it's sort of it's gradual year on year things get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and the only answer i can hear from governments is you know let's build a way out of it let's get the economy fired up let's have more consumers to buy shit they don't actually need you know i mean it's it's pointless it's actually pointless so we need a whole different way as every reporter has highlighted of measuring our success a different way of doing it not GDP not not you know how much cash have we got in the bank you know when the world is burning your money ain't gonna help you one whit as my granny used to say there's no pockets in a shroud you know so we need a whole different way and it's this system has been in place for such a long time it's going to take it's like a super tanker just you know going on it's going to the brakes are on but nothing much is happening you know but we need the governments that people we elect to do what they're supposed to be doing to to look after us and if they can't see this disaster coming then they shouldn't really be in power but i mean you know the problem that we have in the uk you know first pass the post and all that stuff and so we mean if you get only 30% of the vote you're still in power you know i it's absurd sorry i think Amy did you have some thoughts on how to get people yeah engage on yeah just sort of going back to the the climate and nature assembly that's in the bill and sort of think about this in relationship to to voting and getting people engaged in the democratic system so you know these types of assemblies these types of deliberative democratic processes have been around for quite a while now there's recently been a climate assembly which was set up by six select committees also in islands there have been really successful citizens assemblies that have led to all sorts of changes in legislation and really key bits of legislation in France as well they had a climate assembly where there were actually legislators in the room sort of transforming people's ideas directly into policy and into into law so that was a very exciting moment as well so it's about actually using these processes and embedding them into our current system not sort of to do away with our current system and there are also quite interesting examples in Belgium also in cities in in Poland where they have embedded regular citizens assemblies as well and it's all about feeling that you have agency to really engage in the system and to understand you know all these balances and trade-offs that we have to make and I think for for climate and the environment it's particularly important because we will need to see lifestyle changes and we are going to have to change the way we live so you don't want this kind of you know the yellow vest effect in France do you need people to actually be involved and be part of that process and to make it there thank you and on the topic of education just it's been announced fairly recently there is going to be a GCSE which is on environmental and climate education launched in the UK so that's something it's not everything and you know as george was speaking earlier about don't look up this movie about the what is it meteor coming towards uh uh entertainment is going to be important as well because it's such a big part of our everyday life this crisis we should be able to see it reflected in the things that we spend our time engaging with whether that's through sports whether that's through movies and I think don't look up was actually I heard from at some point at netflix it was the most watched film internationally on all of their platforms so that tells you that there's an appetite for engaging with top you know entertainment education about climate change um on some of the sort of other questions that came up I'm just picking my notes up here so one of them was how to give a platform to everyone and I just wondered if Barry or Deborah had thoughts about do you have initiatives or do you have ambitions for initiatives to work with your employees to help them take action through work but also outside of work if I just go back sorry just to to build on what you were saying there about education and things I mean part of the challenge I've always thought that we've had is that there's been a real lack of science knowledge in business so you have this real separation which is business people of business people and scientists are scientists and of course there is overlaps in some areas where it matters but my view is that the one of the only ways that we're going to address this going forward is that you need much more scientific literacy in business right across the piece so it doesn't matter whether you work in marketing or finance or accounting my view is that our accountants at the account financial accountants need to be carbon accountants and if they're not carbon accountants how are we actually going to respond to this and therefore you have to go down their level again which is where all these skills are going to come from so I'm really keen we're really keen that green skills as well as being in the energy sector in the automotive sector in manufacturing we need green skills everywhere you know it needs to be part of your repertoire as a person entering the work place going forward which is we all have a certain level of scientific literacy whether it's on climate or biodiversity or whatever it may be to be more effective in the new way that businesses are going to have to work in the future because if you recruit accountants and sorry it's only accountants in the room you're going to get what you pay for you know we need a whole new dynamic in terms of the skill sets that we all bring to the decisions that we all make and therefore we'll try potentially we'll get much more more informed well rounded well reasoned decisions where it comes to well if I'm going to construct a new anchor a new shop or whatever it may be I'm not just thinking a bit from traditional commercial perspectives I'm thinking it from environmental social perspectives as well but that's going to take a long time and the challenges we keep saying is we don't work out the time necessarily for all these things to flow through the system and get us to where we need to get to we're gonna start doing things now as imperfect as it may be because we just don't have the time to wait yeah well what percentage of parliamentarians Barry have any science background at all very few I don't know but I imagine this can be low I think it's less than 4% so I mean right from the top down just so we need to add up the beans but we need to know what the beans are that's the problem yeah exactly what's the impact of the beans that's one thing I just add to that as well when you're thinking about accounting for or thinking of the sort of impacts on the business or on the organisation one thing that isn't really being done is thinking about the potential impacts on the employees so impacts are happening everywhere now including here and I was working recently with a big global business who were saying you know when they're wildfires and the floods happened in Australia we had no preparedness for that whatsoever for what was going to happen to our own staff so that's something we need to think about um do you have any thoughts I just wanted to and just as a point I think absolutely everything everybody said I completely agree with I think it's about making it part of our everyday dialogue how we live our lives how we trade off decisions that we make as consumers as businesses or whichever but I actually think another big thing we could ask of everybody is to just lift the lid of the the consumables that you do buy or engage with because if you look beneath you know not always what you read or what is on packaging is what what is actually happening and one of my biggest worries with everything that's going on and where we need to get to to get to become you know net zero and we're not you know we've got a long way to go as a bank we're just starting off this journey in some ways you know and as Barry Riley said you know we need to have carbon accountants we need to understand how we offset decisions that we make but my biggest worry is mass greenwashing for those with power and big budgets and that can then you know greenwash things the positive things that do happen so I think it's up to movements like the cooperative movement to be the advocates of you know look under the bonnet you know scratch the the label you know and really really ask and probe those questions to to get organisations and businesses to be able to substantiate in evidence the things that they're saying thanks okay we've only got a few minutes left so I'm conscious we had somebody else who had their hand up over in this area was there a lady who had her hand up before no yes there okay this gentleman here he has a question we'll take one final question thank you thank you um it was about green skills so if if there were green skills academies around the country who's who would be as it were this the sector skills council that maintains sort of the standards and all of those green skills thank you i mean my head would go to the department of education initially and they do have we're just speaking to them this week actually like you know international climate change advisors basically and they have a whole programme but whether they've actually thought about the regulation is a very good question anyone else on the panel have any thoughts on that or who do you think it should be well universities universities at my whole career in universities wish you do something useful yeah and maybe there's a way you know to you know incentivise people by giving them proper recognition of the training that they do by enrolling in universities or having opportunities to do that all right we're coming to the very sorry go ahead one last point on that it's just that whenever anybody sends in a CV for a job it's not strictly in an environment or such an area these sorts of things are always added on the personal interests as in the nice to do it's nice to have a social confidence it's nice to do environmental good but they're not core to the CV of the industry i think somehow that's got a flip which is these shouldn't just be nice to do they should be core to the types of people we need in business sorry I just wanted to talk about that again I agree with that and I you know I come from the sort of development sector and I worked a lot in feminist organisations and they started asking questions in the interviews about you know what does that mean to you as a person and that doesn't mean that there's a perfect answer but it means that the people who are applying are applying because they're conscious about the values of the organisation and they want to further them and one thing I also heard which is useful is I believe Ikea like one of the main reasons why people apply to work at Ikea is to do with their sustainability portfolio so there is a way to sort of entice people around that you know it can be a very attractive proposition for people nowadays when they're applying for new roles all right come to the very final bit but I do want to ask each of the panellists if they've got one priority piece of advice question piece of advice or question to the audience or to everybody listening on this topic what would it be get involved take part have a voice yeah it would be to please sign up to the campaign obviously but also do write to your MP and I think it can feel and I know everyone's got very different MPs and different relationships with them but it can feel sometimes like you're just hitting against a blank blank wall and I know often you get these answers back that are very manicured and that the MP hasn't even written themselves but the case really is that they don't support until they do so it really is really important to keep keep knocking away and yeah we urge you to write to your MP yeah I don't have anything except one last image guys on the AV if I could have my very last slide which I missed of my talk because I was aware of the time yeah and again hit it again and press advance know what they are take that home as a little thought yeah so that's the UN secretary general Antonio Guterres he's got very very vocal recently out of frustrate clear frustration that he has that governments aren't taking action you know when there's you know very very clear urgent agenda here so yeah thank you and if we if it's possible to jump back on to Barry just to get his final sorry it's the way I can see you here I don't mind getting shot by uh by another individual um no uh look get behind the bill get your MP behind the bill mobilize we need it it needs to happen it needs to happen quickly time is not on our side do it do it now thank you and just to take the space even though I'm not really supposed to I would say just please don't assume that people are not interested in this just because they might come from a different political background you know different social identity because we know from evidence that over I think 80% of the country are highly concerned and want to take action so we need to have conversations which are not necessarily focused on you know our differences but more focused on how we can unify to take action together so thank you so much to everyone for joining us today and I think Rose is going to close us off like hello and if you want to find out about what you can actually do as a co-op and what co-ops to do with climate change you've got 50 minutes break turnaround or you can be attending our federal session or the consultation on Holly Oak House before we all finally come back in here for the really die hard cooperators who've made it through the two days to talk about the cooperative identities we've got a 15 minute break before the final session but importantly that was phenomenally important thank you so much to our wonderful panel thanks Barry to see some people still here I'm just saying like if it's a gig we'd make you all move down to the front so we can get a little bit of a vibe going but everyone looks a bit tired now looks like no one's going to be going anywhere look somebody's come down the front so uh yeah so uh so this panel is again on the green themes and what we could do in different sort of aspects of the co-op community what people are doing what people should be doing what people could be doing uh about the green and eco changes that definitely need to be made as brillantly underlined in the last panel so uh I'll get the panel to introduce themselves starting at that end yeah I'm Jonathan Atkinson I'm one of the co-founders of Carbon Co-op we're based in Greater Manchester and we help people in communities make the kind of large scale reductions in their energy that we know are needed to tackle climate change and we do variety of different things we're very much into retrofit and energy efficiency and we've even spun off a new organisation people-powered retrofit to kind of scale that work we also do energy systems things get involved in electric vehicle charges in the home heat pumps that sort of thing and we're also doing uh increasing amount around advocacy uh which is giving citizens and communities a voice in the energy transition so they're heard their priorities are heard and it's not just kind of technocrats and government making decisions on our behalf so yeah it's us all right thank you uh yeah hi I'm Makeda Cryer and I work for Unity which is a joint venture between Mid County's Co-op and Octopus Energy and the self-focus of Unity is very much community energy what can we do in the community energy space how can we support and so kind of the the bread and butter of Unity is working with community energy groups across the country we work with about 200 now and we purchase the power that they produce via wind solar hydro and the great thing is that energy is the angle of ring rents and then put into a domestic tariff called energy and it's the co-op energy community power tariff so if you're a domestic consumer at home what can I do to support community energy renewables one easy way is to go to the co-op energy community power tariff so that's the kind of core bit of what we do and then beyond that it's trying to innovate the sector trying to get young people involved looking at challenges across the sector and what can we do within Mid County's and with our partner Octopus so you really try and kind of encourage that sector to grow because I think we all agreed especially after the last section that we desperately need change and we need more renewables and we need action quick so any of these challenges that we can make a small part in we're really trying to push forward great Mike yeah hello my name is Mike Pickering I'm head of sustainability at the Mid County's co-operative I'm on the major retail co-operative societies within my role I'm primarily involved in the I'd say the climate action agenda and that is predominantly around reducing the environmental emissions across our operations but also working with our members and communities to take action as well and from the previous session I'm going to start using a phrase of I'm helping us to save ourselves because I quite like that from the last session so that's something I'm doing within my role yeah so I was looking at all the stats I've got my little sheets about this panel and it's you know the percentages of people in the co-op movement to make trying to make the changes so people get towards zero carbon and I know I mean it's all co-ops different aren't there's lots of different types of co-ops doing different things easier for some people to do than others I guess so I mean what was the picture the general picture across the whole co-op movement do you have sort of a handle on it as well yeah so so I'm fortunate enough to be able to chair for the retail consumer coops the environmental sustainability forum we've been it's been in place for just over a year and one of the great things about that group is you get to see certainly across those retail cooperatives the sorts of things that are going on around there and I think the general consensus that comes out from those particular co-ops is for a number of years there's been a real drive to reduce our carbon emissions and certainly reduce our waste and there certainly seems to be an alignment there about this build towards net zero setting science-based targets and I think really importantly working together to share the best practice amongst those co-ops on how we can best do that because we're all on our I'd probably say our individual journeys to an extent we've all got our own expertise and networks but what this forum enables is all that best practice sharing to take place and enable us to come up with those collaborative ideas and I'd say the big thing that comes out as a general theme for co-ops in particular is a lot of businesses now I think we've already mentioned are now starting to take which is great the journey towards reducing carbon emissions net zero that type of thing but what we've got is obviously the members that we work with the local communities that we're in touch with and the key things that often come out of those co-op sharing sessions is how we are working with our members to enable that bigger difference so it's not just our operations it's actually enabling and engaging members in those communities so that's probably the real theme that comes out that's a bit different to maybe other models so what is this forum what is it it's online forum or yeah it's um it is online forum yeah it is online forum it's been in place for just over a year um and it's in place to enable those co-op retail societies to share best practice around environmental sustainability and we look at things like reducing carbon emissions greenhouse gas emissions waste reduction low carbon transport providing low carbon products and services and the main aim of it is so we can share best practice across those retail co-op consumer societies and just as some examples so the mid counties cooperative you know we've shared a lot of insight in our in our one change campaign which I'll talk a bit more about the thing is a session evolves where we've engaged our members in the one change our members can make to take climate action and then ask our members one change they want us to make it's trying to make it simple and actually going back to that last session we had I think the question was raised about a framework that people could use that's our framework our one change mechanism and another a number of the other co-op consumer societies are doing a huge amount as well southern co-op have contributed massively on that form around the net zero journey central england around the um green spaces agenda they've gotten it and enhancing biodiversity and co-op group through their 10 point climate action plan so it's a real good insight sharing on there I mean it's a lot of diverse businesses involved of course in the whole movement and it's going to be a lot easier for some people than others I mean how do you how do you deal how do you communicate to people got very like what's the opposite of zero carbon infinite carbon businesses I mean what how does that work would they be interested in doing this or or is it something so difficult for them to do that you can't I see I think I think that's a really interesting point because I think there are some businesses who are really brought into this agenda and I think are really making strong progress towards this but I think there's others and I'm talking more outside the co-op movement I would say for this that need the push that need the push to really push them in the right direction on on how to go on that journey because it is a very complex and difficult concept for businesses to to embrace you know a bit of business model we've talked a lot earlier about the business as usual model the business as usual model doesn't lend itself naturally to actually making low carbon decisions over profit whereas the co-op business model certainly does do that and mid counties we've got what we call our society steering wheel which is our what we call a balanced scorecard and there's 16 key targets and one of those is reducing greenhouse gas emissions one of those is reducing waste and that is as important as the financial measures as well so I think to help some of those other businesses and organisations on the journey it's trying to share those types of models to bring them bring them along I mean I've you've been working within that framework or do you have your own framework yeah no we absolutely do we kind of form part of the framework I'd say so yeah that that kind of filters right everything every business decision every kind of tiny bit it's kind of step back on what's a sustainability impact and you know the steering wheel but I think being an energy part of a business we kind of naturally then feed into it so I think we then get the the luxury I guess of you know if Mike and the team they need some kind of sustainable innovations and stuff we get to then kind of get to the fun stuff of okay what can we do and so and I think the point you've touched upon about working with other businesses and some that might find it difficult I think for my experience where I've really seen value is where there are obviously co-ops I think a way more reliant and kind of get the challenges and are on the sustainability track and then as we know there's businesses out there that absolutely don't and then there's the the leaders here there's the end of the spectrum like the b-corps and so I think it's kind of I think Scott mentioned earlier about value partnerships with the same like values and ethics and things and I think there's a number of businesses out there that do share those so for instance we've recently done a deal with Patagonia who are really like putting a real charge on community energy and so in essence they've probably done some of the hard work in terms of working with a community energy group um it's called Energy Garden working with ourselves that Energy Garden will produce the energy the community energy we will buy it through unity supply Patagonia but by doing that kind of tri party agreement Patagonia are supporting Energy Garden paying a bit of a social premium on their energy invoice which will be able to help young people make a seller array stack up and what I'm getting at is because of that kind of the people at the forefront driving this sort of change then that's almost then a product that's lifted up and we can say actually okay we've done that now and then if there's a a business in the middle ground who isn't as proactive whatever but then sees that it's like oh okay I can do that and it's not as it's not so hard for them to actually do it because some other companies have really kind of pushed forward and made made the path forward so I think that's where it gets really interesting is okay how can we work with the trailblazers to then make the kind of the naysayers an easier transition for them to do the right thing so again it's the co-ops being cooperative yeah absolutely and it's co-ops being cooperative and working with businesses that share the same ethics and values and then hopefully that together can then you know really kind of use the the middle ground of businesses who probably wouldn't naturally do the right thing or a bit on the fence of okay we could do we could do that it's been done and I think that's a really important part to play I mean what do you see as the key areas general key areas across different businesses that they could be making improvements on yeah I think from our perspective I think well I will speak with an energy hat on so it's kind of it's businesses and consumers it's really kind of I think Deborah said earlier like lifting the lid what what is underneath so question everything it's it's what is challenge every single status quo so I think as a business it would be every kind of procurement aspect it was mentioned earlier by Barry you know carbon tax carbon accountants every everything needs to be questioned and I really feel as well as domestic consumers that is something we all need to do so we're not going to stop using ball bands so could we look for a climate positive ball band that's a plug for car ball band and there's also you know our phones could we do instead of an iPhone could we do a fair phone so I think it's every part of our life that realistically we're not going to change we're still going to use phones we're still going to watch TV but but what can we do to make that small difference and hopefully those increments can add up and really make some change now I like those points I like the idea of question everything I'm an old punk that was something that was part of the ideology but also like this idea that every time you find a solution you do find 10 more problems but not backing off on the problems but embracing the problems and trying to solve them is that something that you get involved in as well yeah absolutely so the community energy space I've worked in community I've worked in energy for over 10 years and the community energy sector I've only known about for the past year which is crazy to me because it's absolutely amazing and once you know about it you're like this is just the future and what what can't you like about it and so I'm in a really fortunate position where we work with about 200 community energy groups at the moment and so we constantly have these chats and it's you know what are the challenges and so one of the challenges we're hearing at the moment for instance is finance so you know we've heard earlier that you know community share raises are successful they really do raise a hell of a lot of money so that's great but that tends to be done at the end of a typical community energy groups project so that's when the solar's halfway through being built or has been built then then they can go out to the community and say hey look what we've got let's do a community share raise and then at the very beginning you've got not so much anymore but you've got grants available for feasibility etc but what do we do about that middle bit and so that middle bit when community energy groups need to put money down to actually buy some solar panels this is a challenge we kept hearing you know we can't get the finance it's too expensive these banks are treating us like you know like big offshore companies that it takes months and months and months and we volunteer led so from hearing that challenge we've launched something called community energy accelerator and it's a 1.5 million pound basically bridging loan so if you're a community energy group and you need finance at that stage it's to offer affordable finance that's accessible at a low rate you have it for six months buy solar panels install your wind turbines do community share raise pay us back and hopefully we can pass it on to the next group and the idea behind that is that I think yeah again walling agreement we need more renewables it's community energy generation has really stored since the subsidies were were stopped and so anything we can do to help that growth is what we're really trying to do yeah i'm just fine just one more thing i'll pick up over there what you're saying is i mean talk about a culture movement i mean the last two days of being here has been very exciting watching a lot of these events and talks it seems very uniquely placed to deal with these problems the culture movement itself in a very forward looking kind of way is that something that you feel being part of it i really do and i really feel as well we know again i think i've been really inspired by some of the talks earlier so i keep referencing but you know the last talk it's talking about kind of eco anxiety and just the real kind of you know we're hearing that young people want to get involved but they don't know how they haven't got the finance to get involved and you know we know it's not just an economic impact it's it's can you volunteer what can you do and so from that another thing that we've launched is um it's called power share and it's you can invest in solar via your energy invoice investing community owned solar via your invoice get returns via your invoice and one part of that and why we've done it is again it's to make community energy and renewable it's just a bit more accessible so if you're not in the green bubble you don't know about it you don't go on these sort of you know platforms like ethics and abundance and know about that sort of stuff it's trying to make people you wouldn't necessarily know about such things being able to invest just by like five panament a bit of a tick box on your invoice and hopefully from that that's going to be enough of an encouragement to say oh okay that's community energy didn't really know that existed didn't know you can invest and hopefully that will lead to them looking at other groups and and doing potentially bigger investments or investing but back to your kind of question in terms of the challenges the big challenge we've seen is young people and their eco anxiety and how can you take practical action and I think from working with community energy groups and you know repowering London and we're here today they do fantastic work with training younger people up and really trying to give them a voice and I think the community energy sector um is naturally the older generation because they've got the time and the many to work with it which is brilliant and without um that generation it wouldn't exist so you know it's but how can we get the younger people involved how can we get that succession knowledge sharing so um with power share we needed an independent community energy group behind that to kind of do the community benefit and all that sort of stuff so as part of that we've helped facilitate the growth of a new community energy group called youth empowered and so youth empowered um is by as the name suggests is to hoping to empower next generation so um and we've got two six formers from the local school on the board of directors we've got um three of the people that are below 30 as directors and the idea behind it is exactly that let's empower let's tell people you know you can get involved you can be directors and just for reassurance there are some older people like myself on the board as well to to help try and steer the path but it's and then we're hoping that's going to have a knock on impact and really trying to give people kind of a conduit to take action so in a way the way to deal with eco anxiety is not weighted for somebody else exactly just get on with it absolutely this is the way you can get on with it because you can work with other people in small units and yeah and hopefully know about it and this is kind of what you've been doing for for a long time actually isn't it yeah yeah I suppose what what our take is and it might seem dissonant to what Michael Mike and Michaela have been saying but it's actually part of I think the strength of the cooperative movement that are different organizations doing different things like my background is in climate science so unfortunately a lot of the stuff that we heard in the last session isn't that new to me it's stuff that I learned 20 30 years ago and has informed my action ever since and I was a environmental activist in the 90s the road protest movement and a lot of other things that came with that and carbon corp came out of not just myself but other people from that era in in Manchester and thinking well how how can we do something that will be both significant enough to meet the challenge of climate change that we know is massive and in doing so empower communities and organizations to do that and I think our approach is we're almost a vanguard you know I think for these other organizations that we're trying to push things as far as possible to show what's kind of what what is possible so I mean for example in the retrofit work that we're doing we've done retrofits where we've pushed that retrofit of existing homes like of the you can imagine the red brick terraces that you see in in Manchester and spent 40 000 pounds and then brought their energy bills down by a thousand pounds a year and that's from a few years ago now it's actually worth even more and just to just to go out and show what's possible because I think one of the things about eco anxiety is that people as individuals feel very disempowered by climate change and they think my small action isn't going to tackle this big thing but by working together collaboratively collectively people do feel a sense of empowerment and a sense they can tackle something like this and co-ops are an ideal way to do that so yeah and I think our thing about massive you know scale of action can can neatly fit with the mass the bigger organizations as well.  Yeah well I left the university in 97 and I was a bit disempowered by climate science because I thought a lot of our tutors were like you can't affect change you're meant to be just documenting what's happening a scientist can't get involved you have to be dispassionate and removed and that just didn't sit with me because of the scale of the crisis and I don't really know what I was going to do so in my finals I saw a job advertised in Hume in south Manchester by this worker co-op called ethical consumer magazine that at the time not many people read but it's become more and more prominent and it was like it was an education for me working in a worker co-op at the age of 21 I you talk about being a company director I was a company director at 22 and and I learned all that I mean it wasn't because I was anything special but you were invited in as a worker co-op I learned marketing I learned writing journalism you know I learned all this stuff and and and at the same time I was involved in protest so I always saw those two things like you know trying to stop things but also trying to build things at the same time and the thing that sort of brought it together was cooperatives you know and that sense of empowerment personal empowerment from being a worker co-op but you know there are different ways to be in a co-op I like the idea that combination you know that thing just saying no and the protest but also providing an alternative I think that's really important I think that's where I mean I think XR are brilliant what they do like the the scale of the demonstrations and the creativity and the so visual but I but I do see a sense of frustration from people saying we stopped all this but how can we build something you know and and I think that's part of our job is to show what we can build you know and show all those people that are very clearly against stuff and want to cheer you know we we can we can offer a way you know to do that yeah the solution is not always as spectacular as stopping an airplane landing a runway sometimes it's just the graft of what you're doing of like insulating the houses insulation it's not always sexiest thing but you know and that's where sometimes like I saw the panel people thought I want to saw the panel I was like well if you just use less energy then you know you get the same benefit but you know you can do both and I've been so you've been sort of involved in the co-op Williamson various roles about over 20 years you haven't actually seen it change you know in these issues well certainly in terms of climate change over the years but you know south manchester is really vibrant a lot of small worker co-ops in all kinds of different forms everything from whole food veg to bikes to a lot of housing co-ops and that sort of thing and I think I have seen like a change over time and a more and a growing realization that we can like affect change in that way but I I also kind of contradict what I've said about vanguardism and trying to be out there there is an increasing acknowledgement that that's good but we really do need to scale things that like I was saying in the previous session we've retrofitted a few hundred homes there are 1.2 million homes in great Manchester so the scale the ambitions there and a lot of people thinking about how do you scale or with co-operatives how do you replicate and share what you're doing with the co-ops so you're going to scale the impact not necessarily the co-op itself so in a sense you say like there's you doing 100 homes you'd be perfectly fine the 100 other versions if you didn't manage to do in the 1.2 million it's not competitive basically it's about the result yeah and we can work with people like Andy Burnham who we had on earlier you know Greater Manchester Authority because because there are although that is a council of a sense you know there are ways that co-operatives can work with other partnerships and you know in terms of government and other organisations as well I mean do you think there's more the cooperative movement could be doing to accelerate this process um I think in general like and it's co-ops but others that there is a gap around scaling yeah um a lot and there is sort of what we're talking about a lot of people are talking about it and the government talks about it co-op talk about it but there's not so much thinking into how that happens on the ground you know how do we take those ideas replicate them what kind of support is needed there and um I think that's something that co-ops could be at the forefront of really was that is that something I think that's something that affects what you're doing actually isn't it I mean scaling up is the co-op at doing capable of that is that kind of part of what you're thinking where you are yeah definitely and I think it's um it's a really interesting one because I actually feel now we've got a greater opportunity to scale up on a lot of the things that we possibly didn't have previously and the reason I say that is there is more of a pathway now around the net zero around the carbon emissions reduction there's more of um science based targets advice there's more guidance there that enables us to have more of a consistent pathway together so I'd say a few years ago it was harder to scale up on some things because we probably were doing our own individual things but still sharing best practice which is great and that's what co-ops are really good at but now certainly through the group that I chair we are really understanding from each other that we are so aligned in what we're trying to achieve net zero carbon by 2014 we're trying to align what we're doing measure our carbon emissions in a similar way and we're also identifying on that journey some of the energy saving technologies are really similar that we're all looking at and I think just that as an example by itself is a way we can scale up and previously we've done it around waste management we um working with co-op group and the other retail societies we backhaul our waste and recycling through our distribution networks which we all share that was a great example of the way we we pulled together to scale up and maximize our recycling so we've done it before but I think that pathway we've now got enables us to possibly do it more. I mean do you find frustrating or you're optimistic do you think the scaling up can actually happen? Um I find fast enough because it has to be fast now doesn't it? It does it does have to be fast um I think there are elements that are frustrating they're elements frustrating but and the reason I say that I think it's the there is still and it's still a very complex area and there's a lot of stakeholders that really need to be involved to enable real scaling up so if you talk about net zero carbon journey it's about businesses working together working with supply chains working with suppliers working with local authorities and really getting that full scaling up alignment that's going to be needed and the bill we talked about earlier will hopefully help that because that will bring that alignment and bring that that sort of pushing that through and pushing it through forwards so there's always an element of frustration there that the more we work together the more we would achieve and the more we would accelerate this but there is a lot of optimism there because I see through the group that I chair and across the co-op movement the things that we have already achieved and some of the things that we I know we can do together so it's a bit of both. I mean what what kind of things will the bill bring in that will help to facilitate what you're trying to do? So what I think it will do is it will bring in a consistency because if the bill goes through at a national level a government level what I think that will have a knock on effect is things that businesses have to do and therefore there needs to be that natural consistency so at the moment particularly within co-ops for a number of years I believe co-ops have been ahead of the game on a lot of this stuff and really driving this forward carbon reductions greenhouse gas emissions waste reduction but I think the bill will enable it to be to a certain extent mandatory eventually because I think that's the step that the government would have to take and then that would mean that we would have more alignment across the whole business world and business in the community side of things so that's where I think the the opportunity would come with the bill for businesses. So when you say alignment is it at some time to like a communication with some of the fringes of the movement or is it just everybody's in a slightly different place at the same time? I think everybody's in a slightly different place at the same time I think there are there are some co-ops and I'll talk about the retail co-ops probably more on anything at the moment who are really good at one thing that's maybe the waste reduction side of things and there's some that are really good at the carbon reduction and then some that are really good at the behaviour change and so those different expertise are at different stages on a different journeys depending on where they are so it's all there but it's just that pulling together which is gradually happening and it's sharing the information and the expertise from one sector to another? It is it is sharing the information it's sharing the frameworks we've got in place so one thing that you know I'm really keen to share and have been sharing through this forum is the the one change programme which we've got at Mid Counties Co-op and what we essentially did with one change and and I think there's a relevance here because I think this is a way that you can pull things together. A few years ago we recognised that a lot of people are we mentioned eco anxiety or anxious about climate change and don't know where to start don't know what to do so we did a really simple message around asking our members what the one change they could make to take climate action. We've got a thousand pledges back straight away and we've been building on that further and further since then and then what we could do is pull all those ideas and pledges together and identify a load of collaborative opportunities working with our members so community tidy ups, eco bricks creating things out of waste plastics to build structures and various other bits and then we asked our members the one change they would like us to make as a business and we then set our targets based on that working with members and we committed our AGM recently to halve our greenhouse gas emissions over the next five years but that framework enables us to really connect our members together and I'd be really keen for other co-ops to use that and share that we talked earlier there's no competitive element here we want to share this with others. It's a reciprocal process and it's not like normal business where it's from the top down this is basically you're suggesting ideas but you're listening to the feedback coming back and the critiques that go to you as well aren't you? Definitely yeah absolutely and it goes into I think Michaela mentioned earlier about always questioning and keeping that questioning going all the time so just because you've reached one moment you need to keep asking the members and working with members on what the next thing needs to be and that's the great thing about being a co-op because you have that constant engagement. Michaela do you deal with lots of different sectors of the co-op movement or are you still very much in the area that you're working in? So primarily is the community energy sector but I think the community energy groups that then they themselves vary so much so obviously you've got the more established, the larger ones smaller, some have full-time employees, some are very much volunteer led and they all have kind of different levels of focus but energy generation does tend to be the main kind of area but I think on Jonathan's point and what Jonathan does so well is obviously the retrofit etc and we speak to many groups that kind of really want to get into that space and community energy groups can mobilise quickly and can do the right thing but it's sometimes it's just like we don't know quite how to do it so I think on your point it's not even just great man just through it's how can we get replicates of what you do nationwide and and when it is volunteer led it is very difficult so that's something that desperately needs scaling up so we'll need some thought. What would you need then to do nationwide? Yeah and I think Michaela McHale makes a good point I think that's where maybe there's a slight because we're talking about community energy sector and the cooperative sector and I think there is there is a Venn diagram where the overlap but there's also a separation you do get volunteer led groups in community energy but I think one of the things and one of the things that always attracted me to cooperatives was a social purpose but an economic driver as well so it's kind of we're building our sector our resources our institutions our houses all this sort of thing and it's cooperative you know and so I think we will we replicate best with organisations that do have some like professional staff you know not that many but some professional staff and some expertise and some of the things that you were talking about scale and that barriers to scale and and I think some of the things that sometimes like limit co-ops in the tech sector you've got a good tech starter by dear you know your hot house it with a group of friends you know you come out with a new product what what happens there is like venture capitalists invest and they will look to then invest give you some more money you grow then they'll cash out make a load of money that can't happen in a co-op co-ops are cooperatively owned the assets are locked for the good of society so these venture capitalists don't come in but then that leaves a gap for us you know when we come up with good technology and software like where do we get that bit of money that grows another thing especially and we do a lot around tech increasingly our software developers on the team is around open source especially in this new kind of energy system where there are lots of devices in our homes you know a heat pumps that your vehicle charges we need to shift when we're using them in the in the in the time of the day or night to match the renewable generation we need to be able to as cooperatives manage them in lots of people's homes now if they're all locked down if their software is all proprietary and you know you can't have access to it then that can't happen you know and it locks us out you know and and climate change is a is a societal challenge that we all need to tackle so if we're generating this new software and then we lock it down and no one else can use it it's absolutely daft you know so these are some of the things that limit our kind of thing access to resources access to finance and like that open source open data kind of approach so in a way not just part of the solution maybe a very very big part of the solution to the sort of zero carbon problem is working cooperatively with in coops because the old ways the old structures the old companies they're like big dinosaurs just before the asteroid hits and the cops like the small mammals are about to take over yeah I like that but I think if we're all in silos and and that kind of private sector private profit kind of conceptualisation is like we draw a ring around our activity we do our thing we try and grow our thing it doesn't work on a societal level kind of problem where we need to tackle it together co-operatives it does work you know because we we generally work together community energy movement it's a great example that we're doing really great well we hope we're doing really great stuff in greater Manchester we don't have an ambition to go to Glasgow and to do something there or or Birmingham we we work with the groups that are already there and we help them and they help us in return so that really is part of like that challenge you know and meeting the challenge mean insulation is obviously key but what what other things need to be done you know is it like a checklist you know is it is like a 10 or a 5 that need um in terms of like tackling climate change the big ticket items are homes domestic energy um energy generation which Michaela's very much involved with like greening that more renewables that sort of thing there are then challenges around transport as well how we get around there's a lot of talk about electric vehicles personally I get around on electric bike and I'm like a huge advocate for electric bikes in a city as well but we just need to be doing more walking more cycling and that sort of thing and and where necessary electric vehicles the bits that are kind of missing and the bits that probably less cooperative action at the moment are things like how do we create steel you know green steel from renewables and that sort of thing these are these are big issues that we don't yet know fully how we're going to meet those challenges so that's like a site for research and development innovation and that sort of thing so it's it's not a series of like big spectacular changes as it is it is basically the small grafting the little things I think this is one of my frustrations that government um they will go for a big hydrogen thing over here or a big nuclear thing over here where they could be benefiting you know small soul traders like people in the construction industry all over the UK you know that'd be a much better thing to do yes it's less sexy and it's less kind of like oh a big ticket item but it would actually enrich lots of like small construction organisations and it would make people's homes healthier more comfortable and greener places to live you know I mean for you what the key things that need to be changed yeah so I think um if you're looking at a business model cooperative business model for a for retail cooperative the first thing is the the operations so our day-to-day operations so our trading sites that type of thing we need to make those as energy efficient as possible and reduce our energy reduce our energy on greenhouse gas emissions associated with that so that's things like energy efficient refrigeration um low energy lighting that type of thing in in our operations but then you would then go beyond that and then look at how we're working with our suppliers and our products and services so how are you working the supply chain to make it to work with our suppliers to help them reduce their environmental footprint but how are we making our products more environmentally friendly to enable our members and consumers to use less carbon in their day-to-day lifestyles as well so I think those those two major aspects are balancing together so if you had like a checklist for sort of retail co-ops on what we need to do towards net zero so the operation side of things the day-to-day the supply chain and then it's how we're working with our members customers and communities and that's through the products and services but also from the education side of things as well enabling people to understand what they can do in their day-to-day and that's quite a standard checklist because if you if you can derive as much reductions in those areas as possible that does take you on that pathway towards net zero and we're obviously then you need to do some more work beyond that as well but that's a quite a decent rule of thumb for what you'd have to focus on as a general business. I mean if we reconvene here next year one one year for today do you think we'd be much further down the path or we still be having the same conversation? I think we'll be I think we'll be quite a bit way down the path and the reason I say that is because I think the if we took those three aspects I just spoke about there operationally I think there's um there's great stuff been going on for a while and hopefully it will carry on but the bit that's really starting to come through is this concept of low carbon products and services that people are starting to produce and try and enable people to get involved in and actually purchase and get involved so I would hope in a year's time that's come on even further the things that obviously have been spoken around community energy low carbon products I think they're really coming forward so I would say in a year's time what I would hope to see is they've really taken off more people are enabled to make a difference and take action and the operation stuff will hopefully have carried on as well. So will you say that your role basically is to facilitate the space for these ideas to thrive or actually to create the ideas as well or both? I would say I'd say it's a bit of both but what I would say is I think we there is a lot of great ideas now being developed out there and I think it's listening to those ideas and getting the right people together to take action on those ideas so I would say it's definitely a facilitation point of view on getting those right ideas together because there's some really good stuff that's coming out and certainly from a business point of view sometimes it can be quite difficult is understanding the right things to do in the right places and understanding if they've worked successfully in the past and the great thing about the co-op movement is you can generally talk to another co-op society and say we're thinking of doing this has it worked for you and they can give you some feedback and vice versa and that's a great thing about being a co-op and not having that network. I mean some of the ideas will they they're existing beyond the co-opism movement aren't they these are just ideas maybe working people in isolation and is it a case of trying to get these people into the fold as well and encouraging them to work within the framework of the co-opism movement? Yeah it's definitely it's definitely getting the expertise from from outside and getting that feedback in and I think some of that also goes back to some of the many things we've talked about over today and I'm sure we've spoken about yesterday as well about the next generation of cooperators coming through as well and the ideas coming through from the younger generation because we do a huge amount of work we've got 50 partner schools that we work with and go in and do some education sessions around climate action and I think some of the ideas that are going to be coming through there and probably I'm sure already are coming through is bringing that into the movement as well and getting those ideas forward I think is a good opportunity for us. I think because that generation is so clwed up on these issues this is a good time to co-opism movement and this is a time for that generation to get involved in a platform that can actually make those ideas thrive isn't it? It is and it's something like our one change campaign which I mentioned that's something that we are going to be using and are using with that next generation of cooperators as well so trying to reach out and get those ideas back into us the youth forums that Michaela has mentioned as well I do think from a co-operative point of view there are those networks that enable those people in I think we've just got to keep working on attracting them in and getting them in in the right way and that's something you're working on. Yeah absolutely and I think just one point to add and Jonathan's point and kind of what action cults can do immediately is and sometimes I think it's slightly frustrating that you see out there governments kind of dangle the carrots and they quickly take them away so what I would say is just if there's a carrot being dangled and grab it quickly before it goes so for instance like on the transport side of things obviously yes we should walk and yes we should cycle but some people are going to use cars and need to use cars so for instance you can get an electric vehicle salary sacrifice scheme and that's obviously like a tax benefit so um that's something we at mid counties offer but we don't know how long that's going to be around for so if it's there at the moment those those the quick wins that you can do now so anything like that just absolutely grab and then the more challenging stuff is kind of yet the next steps but I would say take that low hanging fruit while you can because who knows when it's going to go okay so uh I know it's not hundreds of people here but there must be a question on the floor right there there no it's okay it's okay it's thanks um john you mentioned about what the challenges are jonathan's mentioned about what the challenges are and I guess victor last night in the closing section made a fairly impassioned pee for plea for us as co-operators to make a real difference um we heard just a from Eva who was from Repair in London I would love to see this in a year's time to say right what difference has that made um mikaela are we doing anything with Repair in London is there something we could do with Repair in London how do we use congress to bring these groups together and make a difference I guess yeah good question I'm glad I quickly spoke to Eva before this chat but yeah unity we do currently work with Repair in London we've got a few power purchase agreements and I spoke with day fuller Repair in London earlier in the week in terms of finance and kind of those challenges around that sector and then I think following that an area that we could really kind of work collaboratively on is um the fabulous work that Repair in do with um engaging the next generation the youth training programs and and how can we help support that so absolutely I think there's definitely something we can do there so yeah I'll speak to you after this Eva maybe else want to pick up on that I just say that I think congress is a really important time for people to come together to make those personal contacts and links to highlight those kind of key kind of ways that people can work together so I think it's really one to be valued and personally I've really missed the opportunity to like meet and network with people you know during the pandemic so yeah yeah and I would I would add in that I think this time next year would be a really good opportunity to update on um where we are across that court retail society point of view um where we are on the journey especially around the net zero off the back of the bill that was presented earlier as well because that's where that real good best practice sharing is going on um and and I think a lot of those societies can embrace things like the one change principle and to see how that has grown and developed would be great I mean obviously getting to that zero is going to be it probably isn't possible and there's so many other factors but I hope to miss sky do you think we'll get close I think that there are um some businesses who are really taking it seriously and can see the overall benefits of doing it I want to say overall benefits there are if it's done well there are a huge amount of benefits to a business you know the ethical consumer side of things people wanting to then be their customers because they're ethical enriching net zero and there are a number of other benefits as well but obviously there's also costs with it so I think there are certain businesses and institutions who who are going to be really have good advocates for it and really drive it but I think it also needs that government push to really make it happen as well so it definitely needs to be both so a bit of optimism there for some of the businesses but the push really needs to happen I think as well the government to make the space for it to happen to make the space for it to happen yeah and the legislation and to and to really yeah to make that legislative compliance that the businesses would have to then follow and report on and I think the really important point that was made earlier as well about avoiding the greenwashing as well the greenwashing that could really spill out if if we're not careful around all of this it has to be really open and transparent reporting I don't know that's something that that is the whole concept of net zero as well so that needs to be really important and that goes back to what I was saying before not being afraid to admit the problems and the mistakes as well isn't it because you just embrace and don't even find solutions yeah definitely admitting admitting where the where the issues are and where where businesses cannot openly hold their hands up and say it's really hard to achieve this this side of things and we're not there yet and I do think there is a real fear across businesses in general to be able to announce that type of thing and openly say you know we're not doing very well in this area but we're doing okay in this area so I think having that open transparency will help but also that almost equal playing field as well will help as well that everybody has to achieve a certain threshold and that will hopefully help with that greenwashing side of things I think that's a really good attitude to have I think because like I think we're saying this I'm saying the start there are some businesses it's much harder to green green off aren't they so as long as they're saying we just can't do it anybody can give us some help you know well there's just a bit we're just impossible to change the tech is not there yet you know if you're flying somewhere there's no way around it you can't get a train for 180 hours can you so so admitting the problems is as important as finding the solutions isn't it it is it is and the more we talk about it the more the education's been mentioned a few times the awareness and education of people will improve because the more people will understand that there are certain business models where certain things are really difficult but they're working on it some business models will lend itself to be able to do things much easier but the more open those conversations are I think the better understanding there will be for everyone around what really needs to happen and where some of those issues are I mean working in Manchester and it's it's working hard to get to do all this thing in it but there's still big problems and I mean what you know are you optimistic that even a city that you're working in embedded in can overcome those problems a city that was built basically on the industrial revolution ironically yeah I mean I always think about like the Rochdale pioneers you know and in a time where access to like safe food and safe like drinking products and what have you was limited where there was deregulation and capitalism was run rampant at that time cooperatives formed in a in a context where governments couldn't or wouldn't act you know and that's I see this as our time you know it's a it's a similar context you know there is a huge societal problem here around energy access to energy and as we haven't mentioned energy justice and the fact that there are people who are marginalized from resources full stop let alone from the either and they're not cushioned from the impacts of climate change price energy price rises that we're seeing at the moment I think this is the time for cooperatives to take action where you know government can't or won't and I'm optimistic that that we will do that you know in some shape or form and at different scales in different ways that's the interesting thing about this isn't it because it's you know it's not just a zero carb is it's actually aiming for the whole raft of political issues that kind of go around it like people get paid properly people get looked after a fairer society actually is all embedded and entwined with this cause yeah like climate justice is the concept that those who are more responsible for climate emissions take more responsibility for fixing those and that's actually embedded into the un climate charter is that the rich nations will take responsibility for action and help those that can't the poor nations and I would say within the UK that the UK government is is loath to do that and there are there are a few examples of that what I think we need to see is a redistribution of resources between rich and poor in the UK with there's been interesting talk about solidarity tariffs within energy so I'm willing to pay a bit more to help other people that aren't that are more vulnerable to this and I think that's good and the a certain amount of volunteerism is a good thing but I think there should also be more systemic ways that that mean that resources are transferred and the most most vulnerable are helped with those kind of ideas and those kind of ideals it actually makes it easier to get to a zero carbon as well yeah absolutely because I think these things are intertwined you know access to resources privilege vulnerability all is wrapped up within within these ideas of climate change and and decarbonisation it's like rampant capitalism cause every single one those problems isn't it well I was a whole other debate is it one more question John John we've had a couple online oh really yeah wow we're in a high tech time well where do they turn up we'll do those do the table ones they'll do the online ones yeah are you going to shout them out in a minute cool hi so I'm Shaz I'm from community energy Birmingham I also work for a big six energy company in my day job this is a question for Jonathan and Michaela so uh for example I work for Eon and demand for solar panels has got 5 000% and demand for heat pumps is meant to skyrocket but I keep trying to tell people about ventilation and insulation but nobody will listen to me so how do we scale up those I know there's the carbon cup and I invested in the share offer but how do we make that like a mainstream thing where people actually think about external insulation before they think about the solar panels yeah that's a good question I mean there are many things to that that there is like the compulsion and the and the government and local government kind of regulation of like how housing works and I think we talked about vulnerability and there are private private sector tenants that are living in poor conditions and there is a role and a responsibility for government to to ensure that those those houses are operating to a good standard and a good energy standard as well um I think there's also a job in like the what it's horrible but the owner occupy people that own their own homes and for too long now insulation has been seen as like some sort of cost-neutral thing like some sort of thing everyone asks us about payback when when's the payback time um and yet people are more than willing to invest thousands of pounds in a new kitchen in a in a new extension or a loft conversion or a new car and they never ask when that car will pay back you know so part of it is about how we present it to people we present it as an investment in their property one that will make it more comfortable a better property a more you know more longevity and help the environment as well and do something about their bills so I think there's a there's a job there and how we present it to people um I do also think there is like that support around like um you know funding insulation from a from a government point of view from a energy supply point of view um there are schemes out there that will help you to do a heat pump but there are but there are precious schemes that will help you to do insulation as well so this is like a number of things there I don't know mackerel if you've got thoughts yeah I completely agree and I think your point about almost changing the psyche of kind of this consumerism with the your home is exactly that so you would happily get a new roof if it meant you know you won't get have water leaking it and so we need to totally change that and I think as I'll do the thing is just kind of people just don't know where to start I think and that's the biggest thing and it's like it seems such a challenge people kind of ignore it I would say and I'm also speaking from my own personal experience you know I need to do energy efficiency in my home I work in energy but bit of me still like oh we're doing quite no way to start so I'll put that to the back burner but but we need to bring it to the forefront and just give people kind of that guidance of this is how you do it and this is where you start and give people that starting point I mean eventually it will be a mainstream normal idea it's doing but it's just trying to get there as fast as possible isn't it yeah on the same table hello Eva from rebowing London um I think it's more common than a question but I just feel like we talk a lot about net zero and I'm happy Mike that you mentioned greenwashing because I do feel like sometimes net zero is a good expression for companies to hide behind for the purposes of greenwashing because the problem with this net zero concept is that it's net zero so you can be still doing business as usual but buying for trees to be planted somewhere on the planet you can even purchase like buy like pay someone or a company to not chop down trees and that counts as carbon savings so it's like it's a useful concept but it's also a little bit like very ambivalent and and I think we just have to be mindful of that when we talk about decarbonizing and like using the words like degrowth or system change more is going to help us also trying to avoid companies hiding behind this this sometimes very convenient concept of net zero I think you mentioned that before weren't you know like try to just have to call out the greenwashing as much as possible isn't it absolutely yeah open transparency in reporting and uh and again going back to the bill one of the great things in there as well as as well as a net zero concept obviously it was we restoring the natural habitats as well which which goes to the point you know it's more than just the net zero element it's actually the other part um but yeah reporting transparency really important may point out to them actually it's not good business to greenwash the you know if they actually made the extra effort but like insulating all the houses it looks like bit too difficult moments perhaps in the long term it's probably better for them not to greenwash definitely definitely I mean it but you would like to think that the green washes will get found out eventually won't you because eventually there will be a realisation that that is greenwash and it's no way you're going to be anywhere in line with the path that we need to go to okay so the online question one yeah can I ask them at the same time or just do this more at once yeah sir Helen Jackson asks how and can the co-op and social enterprise sectors work together more on this agenda especially in scaling up I think that might be more for you yeah I think um I think that's a really really good question and one one thing we've we've got a real good live example that actually we're working with um at midcount is working with a spire in the Oxford area and a social enterprise hub and local social enterprise projects and in that particular area to try and identify what we can do more collaboratively collaboratively around climate change and one topic we're particularly looking at is the ethos that um people a lot of people are socially excluded from be able to take action around climate change because they just can't get involved in it for whatever reason often economic reasons and and through that network we are starting to look and go on that journey really early stages for us on that journey though but through our networks we are starting to find out a little bit more we've already had an online co-op conversation event with various stakeholders to learn a bit more about what we can do and a lot of it really does fit in with this type of power share model type of thing we talked about enabling more people to access this type of thing so I think it's a really good point and so in we'll will certainly be looking to build on a bit more where we are anybody else want to pick up on that I think just events like this are great because we we get to meet and and discuss ideas and share ideas and and that that's a really key way for us to work together you know working together and Martin was asking could the cooperative retail societies do more to use their stores as public information centres on climate change I think the answer to that is is is yes I think that's a really good point um I think there are a few things that we could do and and actually do do in some cases um I think there could be more signposting around what we're actually already doing within those stores and within our businesses but also more information points more points around um advice that people can actions people can take I mean we took our one change concept we could be having more of that sort of interaction hub in some of our stores and others can as well um there are stores that do do some really good engagement around this sort of thing but yeah I do think there's an opportunity to outreach in that way because there's obviously of usually often a tendency to use the obviously online functions to do this type of thing but so many people obviously coming in out of our stores um there is good opportunities to interact there so I think that's a really good point and we do do it but we could probably do a bit more how would you do it it's not just not a flyers on the counter is it I mean how would you get the information out in a way that people can see it and relate to it is is a way you do it yeah there so so the way that we would we would do it and and we have got platform to do this at the moment is within some of our stores we've got what we would call community spaces or community hub areas which has got areas where members customers can go in to learn what's going on in the community there's someone that they can sometimes talk to there's a there's a like an iPad screen that people can look through to look at information that's going on within our businesses signage there we run localised when I call them events so localised interactive days where we're to someone's always going to be there and we let people know that people are there and before we've invited people like um I think the carbon trust have attended one of our stores before and various other people so the customers can come in and learn more about a particular topic um within a couple of our stores we've got an even bigger space where we can run some education sessions as well so there'd be a mixed way of doing it there'd be some information where we're tighter for space and some others where there's a bit more space with a more an interactive type hub I just think that's a really brilliant question and my mind is racing with a thousand ideas and I think this is why congress I guess is so great is because it you know I guess with any company or co-operative you're in your own o leco chambers and what so it's really great to just hear other voices and I think some of the first sort of points I'm thinking is you know at mid counties we get three volunteering days a year could we use you know we've got a masses of colleagues could we use that kind of volunteering led approach instead of we do lots of great work we litter picking but you know in a crisis like this could we do a shift change and um and maybe have people in stores and have thermal imaging camera that we can lend to the community I don't know I just I guess my point is there is so much potential we could do um but it's just what's what's priority and how can we act quick I'd agree with that and I'd one thing I'd love to see retail societies do more of is invest in the community share issues that we've heard about today so much community energy and renewables football clubs and all this sort of thing we can really build the cooperative movement you know through investment and through growth that way again it's kind of like cooperation you know growing through cooperation brilliant well that's a good place to end yeah so thanks to the panel thank you thank you very much so um we're going to be going into our final session we're just letting the people come down from the other sessions so we'll be starting in about four minutes this really is the day I had the ones that I left now we shall see but yeah thank you very much to a brilliant panel and I'll spare with us for a few minutes if I would turn it around thank you everybody can you all give me a bit of a smile please because I just need to document this this is the diehard I'm going to be going through this this is the serious absolute diehard co-operators in this room so give us a wave everyone fantastic I can't believe there's this many people here still um right talking about a really important matter the cooperative identity this is part of a process which I'm sure we'll talk about we've got half an hour at the start of the process there's going to be lots more consultation on this but we couldn't end the the two days we've had without not touching on this subject matter so I've got a brilliant panel here but um we've got Ian Adelaith from the FDA we've got Dr Sarah Aldridge from the cooperative college and Ewa I'm going to hand over to you from Cooperatives UK thank you thank you so much for staying we honestly thought there was going to be us three talking to ourselves so thank you for staying and when we knew we were going to be the last half hour of the day we thought what you know what would you be up for at this point so we thought a couple of videos and a chat and a quiz is pretty much what we're going to do in the next half hour um so we've um as you said we've got Sarah and Ian I'm just going to do a little bit of an introduction so we've got a couple of videos and then this can be the start of the consultation with you once we've talked about what the ICA are actually going to be doing around um the ID consultation so the reason that I'm up here at COPS UK it's part of my role to um interpret our ID policy and we use the ICA statement to influence our statement of ID as well when Victor talked yesterday about don't talk about the principles you know these these boring people who like the rules I love Victor and I was like oh no because that's me and I you know I love the rules I love the principles that's that's what I do every day and they're so important they're really important but everything that you said was also right we need to be able to find a way to use them that make them attractive to people who are in this room but also people that aren't and so we do hopefully as part of this consultation have a real opportunity to be able to do that having said all of that I think right now COPS UK more than ever before is embracing more types of organizations more ways to cooperate we're welcoming more organizations into membership than we possibly would before that the ICA that the FCA definitely wouldn't admit as co-op just entertainment that Sarah was talking about yesterday I would say even just a year ago 18 months ago they wouldn't have come to us number one and we would probably have turned them away number two and so I think it's great now that we we have this relationship with organizations and we need to be able to use the principles to welcome them in and not to use something to shake our heads and say no you're not exactly what we're looking for so go away and maybe come back when you are but instead we can we can embrace them but as I say the rules can be really important the values and principles are really important and we do need to use them to guard against misuse but we do need to find a way to communicate them better help us to be more inclusive reach a wider audience and let's not hide behind the values and principles let's use them for something positive and so we do have an opportunity right now to influence the ICA statement and the ICA are running a global consultation and we all need to get involved so we have a video from Alexandra Wilson from the ICA my name is Alexandra Wilson I'm a member of the global board of the ICA and chair of the cooperative identity advisory group the advisory group is overseeing a consultation and reflection on the statement of the cooperative identity the statement was adopted in 1995 after an extensive consultation process it includes a universal definition of a cooperative sets out the cooperative principles and identifies the ethical and cooperative values that underpin those principles the purpose of the current consultation and reflection the third in the ICA's history is to deepen our cooperative identity and to explore whether the statement on the cooperative identity remains fit for purpose in our contemporary world the consultation began in December with the release of a background paper and the deliberations of the 33rd world cooperative congress you can find the paper and the congress outcomes on the ICA website the consultation is continuing the surveys the first one is out now educational webinars online consultation events and discussions of the sort you will have at your meeting today the advisory group will table its recommendations with the ICA board any proposed changes to the identity statement and there may be none will be considered at least two general assemblies of the ICA the consultation will be wide and deep wide in the sense that we will reach out to cooperatives of every type in every economic sector in which cooperatives are active all over the world and deep in the sense that we will reach beyond the ICA's direct members to include cooperatives at all levels going right to the grassroots as well as individual cooperators in that spirit I would encourage you all to respond to our first survey you will find it on the ICA website it is open to members of cooperatives their members experts and all others interested in cooperatives please take a few minutes of your time to share your top of mind views and tell us whether you would like to be kept informed of upcoming consultation events so oh my gosh right just quickly in terms of the consultation process that alexandria was talking about there so and this is where it's li