Then welcome back brother. How you doing? Hey, good. Good. Good. I'm doing great. Yeah, you're I won't name where you are But you're incognito I'm on a tropical paradise. I'll say that it is definitely a tropical paradise with What I what I will say is it's the weird luxury of Right now my wife and kids as they have been throughout the week are out at a major beach of the The place that I am currently located to where we have relocated and no one on the beach is wearing a mask And having you heard vitamin D is not healthy for you man.  They're windsurfing. They're kite surfing They're frolicking in the ocean. They're mingling between cohorts and fishing Enjoying themselves playing on the sand and No social distancing and there are police officers there making sure people are safe as they would be At any other time, you know police just making sure things are cool on the beach but not enforcing any kind of Social distancing or masks or anything like that one interesting thing here Is and I think it's a good example for for how things can go down is that The only kind of social distancing and mask wearing has been enforced at the private level so stores most like Most of the stores are open like even quote-unquote non essential businesses A great deal of them are open. There's things that are closed because This the island's pretty much cut off the tourists and you know, so like a lot of restaurants are only doing takeout and whatnot, but And and others are shut down just because there's not that amount There's not a good amount of traffic But the businesses that are open grocery stores and you know, whatever every little other shops, it's you know They'll just say no mask. No entry Right, so have a mask and then they'll say, you know, they'll have a sign practice social distancing and most people are If the business says do that or else you can't shop here and then people go for it Mm-hmm What more do you need but in terms of out on the streets, you know, there's people playing basketball There's people fishing together. There's people just congregating in in various different places in public Nobody's tripping on them. The police aren't tripping and there's I mean, there's like no cases here. So It can work Last time we spoke it was a while ago and lots have changed since then Um You left A lot of new policies. It seems like all the rule books is out rule book on fiscal policies out Rules on what's happening with the federal overreach is out States are realizing they have superseding power to supersede federal power, which like shocker That's how united states was originally.  What do you think we're heading? well, I we're I've I've been saying that we're entering into the dim age. That's what I've been calling it the dim age And I think that that means a fracture at the end of the empire And the question is like What is what is the empire like the empire of what I don't think it's the american empire I don't think that we can say that these are like national empires anymore. These are like supranational empires There is definitely a global There is a global culture And we know that there is a global culture by seeing Those who have been excluded from that culture, right? So the let's say the uh, north north korea by choice to a great degree and iran not by their choice, but like being forced into it by Both the powers around them who are vying and and by the united states who is Depending on what you think whether the united states is Beholden to israel and saudi arabia or whether it's the other way around who knows Saudi and israel the one thing they could agree upon is te hateran, right? So it's like that's When you look at those two examples And russia to to a certain degree, but I mean Russia has you know, such a long relationship with with the european powers that it's like And and with their sort of southern neighbors that used to be in their in their Who's still in their sphere of influence, but used to be completely a part of their empire and with china That's hard to keep it's hard to keep russia out and they've got oil. They've got natural gas you know, so When you look at the outliers you start to see they're like, oh, okay. Yeah, there's there's this Empire and It looks like now we're seeing, you know, as we see the whl move we see these un organizations we see these non nation-state actors You know the bill gates is of the world and the bill and melinda gates foundation. It's like, why is this dude? who's Who's not a Elected political leader. He has no position in government. How is he on the global news? Saying the lockdowns will not be lifted until we have xyz. It's like wait, wait, wait When did you when did you get to make that decision? But That's the that's the revelation. Like that's what's being revealed at the end of the empire is like Who was really in control of the empire this whole time? Like what was the empire and I think that it's like The super and not super national forces That have combined within this global trade This this global network I think it's probably like um, if we're if we're thinking of historical analogs, it's probably the closest is something like when the Like the mongolian the mongol empire the golden horn It was red, you know, it was spread from basically the black sea All the way to the pacific, you know and up into mongolia, korea and all of that, you know, so it's like that But it but it is very loose and it was connected by trade and connected by Um, some some historical aspect, but I mean stretched into russia, you know, they control it went all the way into austria in europe So we're talking that that's really I think more what it looks like to where there is this loose idea of a shared culture um That that is this that is the culture that is sort of on top of language nation Religion country, but there's this culture that's on top and I think we see that that's like world economic forum at davos all of that so I think where we're headed is to the last act Of this empire So it's it's going to I think fully emerge as okay no more games no more mask of There were these countries and all of that. I think that the global response both The political response of locking people down The economic response which has been very much the same throughout the way that the central banks have have responded the the the sort of shutdown or Not shut down of trade, right? Certainly the shutdown of the labor markets has been a thing But the shutdown of cargo hasn't necessarily happened But we're seeing we're seeing that this is going to be the final act The masks are being pulled off the real people who have been pulling the strings all along You're comfortable enough to step out and be like Yeah, I can I can say what's going to happen And that is really what I think that we're headed to it's hard to know Without getting too like conspiratorial and going into the the kind of Tin foil hat realm What this could look like, but I think that what we're seeing Guaranteed is this idea of contact tracing just seems to have It seems to have embedded itself on all sides of the political landscape That it's it's the overton window has been moved way way out To where everybody is saying the vaccine is one thing But I really do think that that the vaccine is almost like a MacGuffin Like the Maltese Falcon It's this idea of the thing that we're going toward But everybody says whether you're on the left the right whether you're in europe the us asia The only way we're going to open these economies back up is if we do contact tracing They just keep saying contact tracing every single one of them is a media Politicians, but what is and and the things that they're suggesting mandatory contact tracing the idea that we're going to know where you are 24 7 And that's definitely going to be tied into the financial aspect Because if we know where you are if we're tracing you in your physical The digital has already been overlaid with the physical, you know, we're addicted to our google maps and our gps So we've already overlaid the the the physical with the digital They're going to be tracking our digital lives as well We're moving into the central bank digital currencies which are all about tracking again And so I think that really what we see is we see This is an entree an excuse this vaccine All of this is an excuse to get into the panopticon Which has been the dream of of Authoritarians for as long as there have been authoritarians. This is like the wet dream Is can can I track every single person's activities? and basically over the course of a few generations weed out Anybody who is undesirable in that they don't follow exactly on the path. Yeah, but my question I have is okay. Let's say you are part of a certain dynasty families in control Do you chip your kids? What do you do with your own family? Because if they have an option to opt out then I have an option to opt out Same thing with money like you talk about central bank you much offshore money there is so what happens when there's now everything What happens there money then? Well, I I do think that We are going to have to have two separate And we've talked about this before There's going to be I don't think it's two. I think it's three And when we've looked at the people like Orwell in 1984 who have Who have predicted what this might look like who have taken the logical progression and moved it forward It's it tends to be this three tiered system. So in Orwell's it's the inner party the outer party and the pearls and the idea that he gives is some idea that the the real slaves are the outer party Middle they're they're truly the ones that you need to affect and I think that what we're looking at now Where that will come out of is The essential worker. Yeah this idea of essential businesses non essential businesses and The state writ large Right. So the state writ large which is including the media these Super governmental organizations like the w.h.o. And whatnot people like bill gates The pharmaceutical companies Right these so you've got this sort of fascist level that's up here. That is this we'll call this the state then you have essential businesses and these these are going to be your Construction that's what you see the first thing they're talking about opening up. We'll open up some construction right construction basic necessities The large chain grocery stores the big box stores these large corporations they're they're not The the propaganda arm of the state. They're not the science arm of the the technocracy But but they have a they're tightly interwoven in that and then you have that third Tier and the third tier is the the pearls the non essentials And a lot of there will be a lot of and it we're already seeing it happen, right? Like people giving haircuts in their houses and things like that There's going to be a lot more of that and there's going to be some look at it That the state is just pretty much going to have to ignore it to a certain degree.  There's going to be full-out conflict I don't think chipping. I don't think chipping is going to be necessary I think that's too much of a stick. Yeah, I don't I don't think that it ends up looking like that I think it looks a little more like a carrot. So and and and where so if you opt in you get all these benefits Well, that's the Orwell idea of the outer party, right? So so winston the the character in 1984 the sort of protagonist for the outer party, right and He's it's interesting because throughout that book He's constantly observing the pearls and he's having this these sort of thoughts about the pearls how like Oh, they're able to kind of live their life and do their thing and i'm really not he sees them as much more free than him Even though they're living Virtually on top of each other the pearls also view him with a high degree of suspicion They don't want to give him access to that world Inner party doesn't want to give him access to that world Right. So the inner party the people the state They have carte blanche they could do whatever they want whatever they want. Yeah, whatever they want Because there basically are no real laws per se And these things are being Which is we've reached that right it's being the shit is being made up on the fly When you've got mothers being arrested for having their kids play on a playground Surfer is being arrested for surfing You've reached a point where like you're in 1984 where in the first pages, you know, he says That writing in his journal he says it wasn't illegal because nothing was it was illegal But he knew but if he was caught It would be certain death I never I never understand those cops law enforcement to follow these stupid. I don't understand them psychologically at all Well, is there is there is her brain kind of like the Demented like I don't get do they have common sense Like I get your law enforcement.  Sometimes you're gonna rest a guy on the beach No, it's but but it's it's Brainwashing and it's culture right so it's a level of indoctrination.   They have to break the law And so if you're in a major police department new york chicago Toronto, it doesn't matter large police department You have been an accomplice to If you're there for 10 years, you've been an accomplice to hundreds of acts That should have gotten you suspended or fired Or maybe even thrown into prison for violating the law and the policy of the police department, but you have Participated in covering those up For your fellow officers off the idea that oh if the shit hits the fan Brothers in arms These guys will defend me which they won't They won't those same psychopaths would shoot you just a suit, right? but the idea this this this narrative going on and It's that divide and conquer it's that us versus them and and the fact that The fact that we are seeing this level of absurdity, right? Where an officer would arrest a woman for having her child play on the playground The fact that we're seeing that tells you that like we've reached the point where that indoctrination is so Hardcore that it almost doesn't matter How crazy the laws get we can pretty much be guaranteed that the police will enforce them without question But we can pretty much guarantee that and the ones that won't will just basically be let go But there's a critical there's a critical mass that will you know some will quit for sure I there are definitely going to be police that quit in the next year Over this shit. They're going to be like I just I can't I can't do it But you know that's just going to leave space for the psychopaths To come in even more it's going to be interesting because united states is a different dynamic to many countries you have You have armed militia of private citizens that like literally it's like micro armies In certain states, but then as we're talking before the episode show is state-by-state armies like you mentioned california has his own navy And so when you have federal laws that come down and state laws like well, fuck that come and get me I think I mean These governors now in the states I think I've been I thought since the beginning of this that there's a very good chance of a kind of a weird civil war happening You know basically all that a civil war means like de facto would be if they start shutting down the borders To interstate travel. Yeah visuals, right? So like if I can't just drive across california nevada border Without getting stopped in a checkpoint You've had a de facto Secession like it's the the united states is basically open up If the if I can't freely move between The states they may be relatively uh like friendly to one another there may be a degree of trade But if I get stopped and it's like papers, please For as I move this way and the california national guard stops me. Well We're not one country anymore. And I think that that would be That would fall into the narrative From a political standpoint an economic standpoint a financial standpoint. There is a lot to be gained by having that breakup happen Uh, because you you reduce the amount of power. It's much easy to control the individual little tyrants Right who are who are all basically underachievers like a question Benefits is not the u.s federal governments outside forces It is it is because for me for if There is a silver lining if it plays right like the common enemy amongst Even russia like this there's a common denominator. My man.    I mean it's a global web.  It's cuban paisel is pretty much That is a massive this egg to the dollar Yeah, right so so The technically the currency of china is the us dollar Technically, you know in name only only is it the r&b because if you have a pay Then that means I can just take the r&b to the to the bank exchange it for for some amount of dollars that you've said it But it's dollars that everybody there. There's a there's a trifecta though that The china has disadvantage towards them. I would say four things If this narrative continues, I see a global cold war against them Number two what people don't know after 1945 united states made the super PAC where they guaranteed the safety of all shipments around the world Because let's be honest.  They're pissed. They're really really pissed So I wouldn't be surprised even you see certain cia coups where they stimulate certain internal conflicts within china Happening in the next couple of years Yeah, I mean I think that all of those things are very likely and if you You know, we've we've shut down economies and because we've shut down economies Supply chains are being destroyed like that people haven't fully felt the destruction of of many of the supply chains We're hearing little things of food producers going under Slowly, you know and it happens kind of slowly Um, but each little domino each little link in the chain is linked to a whole bunch of other things And it only takes a few critical pieces to go go under before boom a lot of problems happen and so if you have reduced Consumptive power from the from the west the u.s. In particular and if you have A Lowering of the variety of things that are coming in just because businesses have gone under including some businesses who are Let's say western businesses many doing manufacturer in shine So if when you have that breakdown then you're back at the old adage if goods can't cross borders armies will and this this is greatly reducing the interconnectedness of the economies of the u.s. In china and i think you're absolutely right in terms of The the potential for war when that happens because it's like well if you don't need each other And if you don't need each other from a trade standpoint Then yeah, I think it's a lot more likely What what such a war would look like and how long it would last is again? Probably orwellian where it's like we are at war with east asia We have always been at war with east asia. I think it could be that degree of war Yeah, there are there are ace cards india want india's teams of united states There are there arch rival in that area is china and we rather team up with india.   Oh step out of line and like you're gone. Yeah that how deep Deeply woven their control of the day-to-day population is and what people in china will acquiesce to If the state demands it is It's actually unbelievable that you could have a population that big And now mind you you know in the rural areas It's not going to you're not going to have that same Interaction but in the big cities and there's lots of big cities in china People just go along man. Like it's just a normal part of because it's it's preference falsification On the surface. They're like that but behind closed. This is what happened in ussr Like it's self preservation. You don't want to publicly state certain things because hey disappear like Case example with coveted the lawyer that came out. Where is he? He's dead for sure The doctor Who knows all these guys that spoke up early? What like January 1st or no, sorry January 10th Who know they're gone man here disappeared. Yeah, yeah, that's I mean that's the I I think that that's coming everywhere to be honest like I because it heals Well, let's go to this let's go to this narrative this narrative about and it's been an ongoing narrative That the west should have reacted like china that china is a great example Of who's spinning who's spinning this media?  So in north america Let's say can of the united states pretty much not the same but almost the same type of quote unquote freedoms, right? Uh, I can still practice a religion. I want to practice. I can public Can you because the churches are closed? Not right now. No But but in china, I can't if I'm uh, depending where I am I can't even practice a religion before all this stuff Right And I can't publicly even have a debate of why the government is doing bad things or else i'm gone At least in canada united states. I can say well Our president is not good. I don't like the policies. He suggested that suggesting I don't like his cabinet and we should vote if I said that in china Who i'm gone? but I think I think that it You know, it's just a matter of degrees in some way Because ultimately what they want is they want your voice removed from out of the public discourse I've always said and you said this earlier.     Then I think that you could really say that american culture could be identified Right that this came from america, but I think that if you look in the last Let's say 10 years, but really in the last five years 10 years especially is The the globalization has happened to such a degree that it's like especially when it comes to pop music I dare you to tell like a brand new artist comes out. I dare you to tell me what country that artist is from I dare you even just by looking at them, right? I dare you to tell I mean the last 10 years has seen, you know, like drake and the weekend. I don't think that anybody 30 years ago would have been like, oh, yeah, canada these guys. I'm looking at these guys. I'm listening and and you know And the weekend is like Ethiopia. Mm-hmm, you know, so it's like The the the hodgepodge the the mix Has has done something such that it's it's almost again It's supernatural like the the culture is supernatural, but I think that the culture that china has imported Is a it is a corporate A corporate culture. There's what is the Is it called the factory? There's this Netflix documentary. I'm trying to I don't I if you I'll I'll describe it and you may have seen it But it's yeah, the chinese billionaire that gets the factory united states Factory in the u.s. And then the u.s. People go to china and they see how basically China has penetrated deep deep in united states on all levels the kyle bass famous investor.  Treats you and how you move through your day how your day is structured in the place that you work And I think that if you look at the essential businesses now And you look at their company policies and you look at how they treat their employees and you look at what's expected of their employees Cogs in a machine It is very much more chinese Than it is what we think of traditionally with america And I mean the the idea of like the union and all of that is really gone You know like that's that those businesses are going to be put under All of the businesses that that formerly had unions You know, they're furloughing workers and shit from the the Government positions that had government unions state workers unions or whatnot We're coming. That's what I think is the culture that china brought And it was just a matter of efficiency Right, it's that like well if we want to compete we've got to behave In this way and that's that's really being shown in that documentary right and It's I do think that that's a much more important aspect of culture Uh because it's the indoctrination. It's the Pavlovian conditioning of the worker And that's what's going to be that's what is carrying us through that people are just Because it extends to listening to the government in the way that people are to not question people are not questioning the narratives even though It's only been 60 days really with this bullshit And every single narrative that was pushed from how many people were going to die to what measures were necessary To ventilators.  We'll just forget But that's normal 89 percent there My theory of why the bullshit continues state by state is no different than uh happening as actually the same as corporation states Hedge funds you name it we'll call them entities all of them realize once the fed open up the war chest They can get money And so you I look at human beings as incentive-based creatures We're irrational, but we're very, uh Easy predict predictable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like oh money. Okay. How do I get more money? Oh, I have to be more of a victim Oh, I gotta propagate my numbers. I gotta get more in debt.   That's what's so interesting And that's why I think when we talk about like the it goes right back to the idea of the reveal the big reveal Of who's really in charge all the people who've been saying Pay attention to the central bankers, you know, we're a part of that group But I think that that's been such esoteric knowledge to most people Because those people are like, oh, no, no, no, it's like the president It's like trump and this guy that you elect and it's the prime minister and it's the queen and just No, no, no, no, no, no. It hasn't been that for a very very long time.  Yep And then they can bail you out of the debt and then they own you. Yeah That's imf strategy to go around the world like hey, africa. You want a hundred billion dollars? Sure.   They have to be they have to be to be in that position.  They call them evil, but I'm like they're not I'll tell you why In their mind, they're just it's not like they wake up like, oh, I'm dr. Evil I'm gonna know what I'm doing is just and I believe it's for the greater good Well, there's so Robert Hare Is the dr. Robert Hare who's the inventor of the hare psychopathy checklist? If something everybody should know I heard about this before. Yeah. Yeah He's so he's studied psychopathy, which we really don't to be honest We really we use the term psychopath, but it's really a very understudied thing and one of the reasons why is because Uh The the those in power tend to check off a lot of the things. Yeah, you don't get a lot of funding for this, but it his thesis after study, he's the foremost expert on psychopathy, right? And he created what is the diagnostic sort of checklist to check it off that they do for criminals and whatnot his thesis is that it's somewhere between one percent and Seven to eight percent of the population Are these things psychopaths, right born psychopaths and that fundamentally what it is is that they they lack empathy That they are predators. They're basically predators. There's theories though of why they exist in society Well, they're very important. They I mean without psychopaths I don't I they've been a part of the human experience For so long. They're like an An inseparable you could never separate them out Some people are just born that way and I mean these are predators, right? Like we we are the most badass predator that has ever lived on this planet There were if there had been tyrannosaurus rexes alive when human beings were around they would be gone now because we would have eliminated Like tigers. Have you been next to a tiger?  The only reason we're letting it swim around next to us and not kill it is because it's entertaining Right to tease it Right, but we're not scared at all these this is just like a A an aspect almost like an astrological sign, right? That like some people are just born and they are just full predicate And so there's a the theory though before that is for back in the day of tribal warfare Well, we needed that. Yeah, it was selective. We needed these individuals for tribal warfare to have this blunt moot type of emotions not to be traumatized in in fighting so so natural selection would dictate that That you would have that there is a need a cultural need for such individuals and at certain times of crisis You would definitely need them to fight against Predators and other tribes and whatnot and so it's like that can be moved in a positive way But it can also be You know it can do what it does and so I think that that you know, it's very clear That the game of the central bankers has been there's this The people who rise to political power are a bunch of fucking psychopaths We can manipulate them very easily with funds And they don't care if they do it on the backs of their populations because their time horizon is quite short But they also can be convinced in that moment like you say that like no, no, no Don't you understand this is really for the good of your people and they believe it They believe it because they believe that whatever they want Because they're supreme and and better than everybody else. They're gifted from god So whatever they want is good and the people are just a bunch of plebs And that's exactly what we've seen play out in this whole crisis this idea that no, you can't leave your home Because I know I know how to keep you you don't know how to keep yourself from getting sick What I can't make I can't make my own choice. I can't go out and wear a mask.  So so what you're telling me is that all these people Got this virus didn't get sick and you locked them in their house They handle it But you just decided that you knew better and you were going to lock them in their house And that's what they're playing on and so now we're going to see this mask revealed Who's really in control The feds about to put a whole bunch of equities on their balance sheet. They already did they got the spv They bought all the junk bonds Well, there's going to be more There's going to be more they're talking about right now buying straight equity in the whole oil industry Come on that's that's centralized socialism right there means of production And it's and it's global. Yeah, right. So that is that is truly super. Yeah, it's interesting though There's there's a couple of trump cards though that could play out against them though There's talks of states bringing back state money as it was before united states before There are You know the wild cards crypto, but it's still two small potatoes for them It's not really a threat at the current moment, which is good. I want it to be incognito like we don't exist Shit We're not a threat Um And then also like a lot of game theory though So it's like I I truly still believe there are a few people in government that want to do well, but they can't do well Uh, like anything, you know laws of number. There are like a small percentage I've heard rumblings of administration trying to pull in the treasury to supersede the fed which would be an interesting power play as well um, but I don't know man. I think the I think the What you said earlier the most beneficial thing for united states would be The the states realize that they have more power than the federal government And they work together as a united states and But they're not working together, you know, they're they're at each other's throats Yeah It seems like there's these little packs that they're trying to do right the stronger governors the new sums the qualmos Are trying to like pull in the neighboring states to have kind of regional packs But I don't think that that So so here's my here's my concern and my worry my concern and worry is that These governors right now. They're a bunch of underachievers And at most Yeah, I mean at most they were like they want to be president and they viewed this as a stepping stone for many of them Right, they're gonna eventually run for president because they want to be president of the united states But they're going to make the governorship attractive As this continues on the governorship is going to be a stopping point Because it's going to be like well, wouldn't I just rather be just president of california? Like why would I worry about all the rest and and i'm Yeah, that's kind of Kind of yeah, you really would be fifth largest economy in the world or texas, which is tenth largest I think if you just separate it out and so my biggest concern Is that this newfound power from the state side is going to attract Some some much more savvy and dangerous individuals Into those state governor positions over the next 10 15 whatever it is and that we could have you know The next governor of california the next governor of new york next governor of texas florida be a real sob and And and That could be where things start to to fracture into violence like i'm I think the economic aspect of this is over I think that we can pretty much see that there's a rebuilding process What i'm the most concerned about is internal violence and oppression and tyranny We haven't quite yet seen that we've only seen it at the police level But these governors are allowed to take it to the military level Unlike the president like the president can't use the u.s. Military for law enforcement But these governors can use their national guard, which is military Your national guard and many of the other national guards have served in iraq and at the endstand you've got You've got combat veterans With with the full bradley fighting vehicles in full fatigues, you know what i mean carrying military Automatic rifles like the whole nine with an air force with f-15s in the whole nine and They can do law enforcement and that's worrisome Yeah, I would agree But you think they have more common sense to realize that the division would rip a country apart Where the the smartest way like united states would Could come out of this if played right like 10 times more powerful than before if They aligned with a common enemy, which is china Where they pulled out of china and the thing there are i'm kind of lean towards that way There's billions of dollars locked in china of hedge funds and and government money that the china will go whatsoever uh and so My only hope like I look at I look at these casualties And how do you Unify a group of people for the same cause like look at how beneficial was where they had a unification against the ussr against communism Uh the builds that they did the moon rays like all this stuff like the the amount of industry that they built In that time was fucking ridiculous and we never had that since we've been this stagged out Bullshit peter teal talks about it. We want to fly in cars.   Yeah, like We're we're making castles castles in the air at this point. I I think that What I just don't see I think you're I think you're right. I think that if there was some common enemy Let's say that's not the virus that sticks you inside some common enemy that forced people to to build then Then yeah, that that could be possible, but I don't think that The central bankers are quite interested in the same type of nationalist behavior That has taken place in the past and I don't I'm not really sure like I don't see what would even be the narrative against china You know, they've been trying to spin it. Oh the chinese virus and this and that But I don't think that like the average american or the average westerner really has a an axe to grind Against socialism communism china in general I don't know narratives that they can spin the hong kong story They can they there's a there's a bunch of stuff that it all the like incentives is You have the powers to be okay. So status quo the government Or you can call it's not just one it's Fracture it's It's different elements within the government all fighting for control Uh, no different than all states fighting. It just moves up the ladder, right? So now there's like this cabal of like five people saying ha ha ha. I control everything No, you know always people things is illuminati like the secret society.    I mean I I don't it's it's we're going to have to see how the justification and rationalization of the destruction of the economy plays out right so I think I've been waiting like I've been waiting to see and I said this early on I You know, I tweeted about this I said that the the biggest The biggest problem with what's going on and I said this a month and a half ago Is I said that when this is all shook out and we see that the virus wasn't what it was played up to be That no one will take responsibility For their own actions and exacerbating this oh never And it'll happen again Yeah, but this is this is this is memesis 101 Yeah, oh no for sure. No my fault.  What can't be my fault Well, I've been waiting to see is One governor gonna step out and have a mea culpa Like that that would be the person who will go down as like a hero But I don't think that they even understand that right so like if one governor was to step out and be like, you know what honestly I blew it I blew it the buck stopped at me I shouldn't have done this. I shouldn't have gone along. I have a duty to you the people I blew it I'm asking for your forgiveness and let's work together to build this back up Right, that would be such a powerful statement that would basically shame the rest of the world one state governor was to do that and they would like basically Finish out their term. They might become the president like but what's so interesting is that These people are political animals, but they're such sociopaths that they can't see that that would be the way to go Right that that's how you turn the corner and and nobody wants to be the guy who says oh open up and then something bad happens Right, they're they're they're playing this weird Game and so the double downs are not ending. That's the scary part about this whole thing is that like Each day that goes on these governors double down for exactly like you're talking about right that it's not because they're They're Nefarious or anything like that the tyranny is coming from a set of perverse incentives One the incentive of the central bankers who are printing money and the more of a victim you are just as you say The more money comes to you right And then on the other side the idea of like well, I can't this is just my political career I'm not going to admit that I made a mistake And those two things combined is really it's a perfect storm. So I think before we can talk about You know the potential of of of how people could come together We've got to see just how far apart people fall and I don't think that that's even really started yet Yeah, that's my only worry man. It's human beings are very tribal extremely tribal creatures and You can see it already Small tears in society. Like I saw a video on twitter today.  You should die from the corona virus I'm like, that's great role model as a teacher and so Well, what with that? I mean, let's stop on that. Yeah, because it's like What is that even right? What like What is that? You know, like you're wishing death on someone because They're what they're not staying at home. They're you're out You're walking Is it because they're not doing some prescribed they've moved outside of the prescribed action To and and that slight movement, right? So if they were walking down the street walking their dog She says nothing nothing But they pull together too, right? They're walking down the street walking their dog just like she is she says nothing But if they are in an empty field Both of them together all around Then she wishes death on that. This is once again example. Mamesis.  Yes But this is exact. This is example of people say oh that can never happen to me like what happened in nazi germany. I'm like It's happening. Yeah, okay. Yeah It's right here people are doing it and and and This I think that the fracturing This is what I've been worried about in terms of the civil war and and where I think that the states could possibly butt head We're already starting to see it is that some states are going to open up other states are not and as the Time in between those so like this week We're starting to see some states and they seem to be red states southern states and whatnot And the blue states are like still even closing it right so it's like as the time It gets longer Right that the red states are open and these blue states are not The blue state some percentage of that blue state population and you're seeing it in california in the republican Areas so like the beach cities of san diego Orange county these are republican bastions. They have been for a very very long time People don't realize that like the the congressional representatives from out of those districts are republican And they have been for a very long time. This is how people like Arnold Schwarzenegger got elected to be a governor California right so As it as it goes longer, you're gonna see these people start to act up Because they're gonna be like why the hell is georgia You know, we got to have this and that makes the government crack down And I think that that's the point where you might start to see california shutting off its borders Excluding some travelers from other states Well, what happened in the past united states like for example with the racial wars in like alabama and georgia And then when jfk sent down federal orders like is there like examples that we can learn in the past of what's happened already Well, I think the difference is that in this case In those cases it was like the federal government And the states that were going along with the federal government Against another set of states, but it seems very different in this case Like it seems like this has gotten out of trump's control You know, he's really he's and and the media has helped in that right?   We haven't yet had like true state on state But like the thing was florida in new york where The florida governor was like stopping new yorkers at the airport with the national guard And stopping plates and then the rhod Island governor did something similar and then he was stopping louisiana people We haven't really had that where like they pick a state You know where they're like, okay this governor and we haven't had that kind of thing happening So there's no like historical analog The federal government is just paying for all of it You know, like all of these national that's what people don't realize that like Again to your point about the money printer go burr and the states they did this title 32 thing which is Usually it would be if the governor calls up the national guard the governor pays for it and if the federal government calls them up like to send them off to war the federal government is for it and and in that case they can't be used for for For law enforcement, but they've got this weird title 32 thing this law that basically says the I guess the governor calls them up, but the federal government pays for it And it was 75 federal government 25 state government trump changed that so it's 100 federal government So like california is rolling out national guard troops to guard food bank trucks now Right, but the national guard's going to be the ones distributing food just like in Third world war-torn countries to refugees Nor former soviet to russia where you have to wait in line for bread three hours Well, but it wasn't being distributed by the military like right now Because the milk because they're worried that the food trucks are going to get hijacked Right that which they will It's it's happened it happened in italy like they would rob stores early in the morning and whatnot So that's all being paid for by the federal government So don't think that The governor of california is going to waste one minute calling out the national guard when he doesn't have to pay for it It's free. It's free. It's a free military And that's true for all of these states that have signed these agreements with the federal government And that's that's super worrisome unless they make an amendment which they can We'll see at this point. There's more rules. It's like, oh, I don't care about your title 32 Yeah, it's yeah the rules the rules are rules. What rules like what Like fuck man, there's no rules anymore if the fed through an spv buys equities and oils what rules Yeah, there there are none there are none and and I think that that's one of the most important things as individuals For people to come around to Is you got to be like winston in 1984 you got to realize yeah, let's not talk about what's legal and illegal Let's just talk about what's likely and what's not likely Right, and I think that like that's why it's important to have conversations like we're having right where you Where you take things to a logical conclusion you say, okay, here are the let's talk about here are the components Here are the variables how might things Play out and then let's invest our time and energy Leveraging those potential outcomes, right? So whether that's the financial investments that we make whether that's Changing out the physical location where we're located if we think something's going to go go down whether that's you know, maybe moving into a new A new business or engaging with certain individuals that we think might be important Um You know toning down some of our rhetoric that we might have that may not that may not be Serving as well All of those things it's it's it's hyper important, but I think for those people who are like, oh This is that would be illegal or this would be illegal or they can't do this because of this That's out the window, man That's out the window, man. It doesn't mean they're going to do everything Right, like I don't think that we have to to become completely gloom and doom I don't think that we have to say that it's going to be the worst-case scenario, but like you say It's behavioral economics. It's predictably irrational Also, don't think that it'll always be rat the rational behavior. It'll be irrational behavior but like how the human beings act what would be predictable for them to do and I think that there have been a lot of predictable moves like the one most Is that they're lying to you. Yeah all this is lies. That's the most predictable thing But this is why I bring up china because that's the most predictably rational things like well, we need someone to blame And it's and they're doing it right like they're they're they're trying with the blame We should worry about that turning into a hot war though I don't know man. I don't know the thing the gives america Even though the rules are out All international capital rather have their capital in united states than any other country on the planet Because at least there is a so-called rule of law and their capital can move out like S&P the dow. It's the most liquid market on the planet for the most part. This is like I always tell people you like china. Why does china? Why do chinese come here to have money? Why do the public why do companies go public over here? Why aren't we going public in china?  I think that's very predictable um it's just to to To what degree? Is would a What if we get to a situation where a hot war? Yeah, maybe not on the mainland of china and the u.s. But even even if it's proxy If we get to and who knows this north korea kim jong-un dead situation may Be something there as well. Yeah, but If we get to a point where it's mutually beneficial In the same way that it was with the ussr. I mean the cold war was beneficial to both sides.  But from a cultural standpoint it gave them vast influence in the world On either way really really a few a few things go differently and it's a totally different world If we get right now, it's not mutually beneficial for there to be a hot war between china and the us not at all If we get to a point where it's mutually beneficial, that's when we got to start to worry. Yeah You know I don't know exactly what that would look like, but I don't think that it's beyond a realm of possibility if the economy is It's hard for china though, man 90 percent all their food is imported and you can't united states But you mentioned state by state protection of food Well, united states guarantees the protection of all freight's around the world and they can pull their navy any given time But no one's protected have fun having Somalian pirates raid your fucking ship 24 seven I'm serious like not just a mall in japan.  That's why I think it's probably a proxy war is more likely. Oh, yeah Oh, yeah Where where it doesn't could be hong kong be Hong Kong could be north korea north korea's inch I was in north korea last year with government officials and tech companies And I was talking with them and we We met with a bunch of expats Ex-escaped people at the DMZ zone Out the the the military zone And we talked. Yeah, it was like a year and a half ago when I was talking about it and there there's there's been a behind the scenes communication with people in north korea And uh, they're even back then there were They had this thesis that Within even the faction of kim jong's family, right? So his sister is now next in line And the it's not that they're so people understand for a kim jong un's family to remain in power All the generals of the country must be happy. So the generals control the country So they get paid in american dollars again They can fly out of the country. They have complete complete autonomy, right? So they're they're the elitists of the world of north korea Uh, but what's happening right now you mentioned earlier china's not their labor is not cheap anymore You know, I used to have a textile business had a fashion company before I got into crypto a decade ago And had our company in guangzhou and the labor costs right now companies leave. They're in vietnam. They're in cambodia They're in thailand right now And so they were predicting there could be a very small but still a small opportunity where north korea becomes this Weird still will be a dictatorship But it will be a dictatorship very similar to singapore Mm-hmm.  But when you understand china's the change in the economics there And how their labor costs have changed as you say then it becomes obvious like yeah, you got to go to the next place um It's I mean china bringing in african immigrants that should be a statue there in guangzhou in guangzhou There's 150 000 ijerians you go there you want to think you would think you're in africa It's crazy. Yeah I mean, but but that's the sign you know that that's the sign that you Are are losing your competitive advantage as a producer. Yeah, you got to import labor Import labor, right I think that that goes to why Why this lockdown is so deadly Right, I mean why it's so economically deadly The pictures I think out of india are some of the deepest Because I mean people are people move internally in india as uh immigrants really, you know the migrant migrant workers within india and when this a lot when india went into lockdown and there's Tens of thousands of migrant workers trying to get on trains some of them are having to walk Their children are dying in their arms as they're like walking and shit Terrible because there's just no work you know and You you you lose everything you lose everything because even when your economy comes back online that labor has less and it's not just easy to get it back and so At best you can get local labor So you've got two choices either one everybody in that region gets paid less That are jack your prices up In that you price yourself right out of the market that you were in before if those supply chains are even still open the We're going to see This what happens when you have this labor market that goes back insular again and it's Dude, I just I like for me the only thing that I can see on the horizon is violence like it When you take down economies again, it's just that maximum when goods can't cross borders armies will Human behavior There's only two ways of getting resources from from another human being There's the political means and the economic means the economic means is Nonviolent voluntary exchange and the political means is war That's it And we haven't had big war for resources really since world war two You know That's what the germans were about the germans were trying to acquire resources, you know But we haven't had anything like that in the west In in the in the modern world. We've had these ideological wars, you know Kind of wars for oil. It's not really it's worse for like Because financial positioning of your currency is really what it's all about. Yeah, that's why they took out Gaddafi That's it. That's it. But it's not because We're going there to take their oil. I mean, that's like an old We don't need oil man. You're too much oil in the world Unforeseen amounts of oil There's plenty it's more about being able to control the flow of oil, right? So to stop somebody from coming onto the market, correct Basically the the beers of oil. We control everything Exactly. It's controlling it's controlling the supply lines and being able for there to be the opet cartel and Dictate, you know, as we're seeing going on in this oil war That we're what we're going to see. I really do believe Is we may see Wars for resources break out again, which has been something that hasn't really existed In the modern world But are you talking about wars for resources as united states as a whole and go somewhere? The question is what resources really united states the thing we united states and can we have People don't know is we have one of the most fertile land on the planet when it comes to farming Yes, very fertile. We we have the most great lakes in the world. So we have natural water We have the longest of what Canada the longest unguarded border on the planet This is true. And so you don't have neighbors that's going to attack you. So north america is pretty much I consider one country In it. No, I mean, well, canada the states even culturally I think it's pretty much one country besides that besides a few little court cultural courts It's pretty hard to tell whether you're in like, uh, you know, toronto or boston if I was In a restaurant in the middle of the hard to know whether you were in one or the other but um No, it probably won't be in north america It won't be but the question is what are we fighting for them what resources because we're resource heavy here We're resource economy like canada's 90 of our gdp's all fucking resources It's going to be in places. It's going to be in places that are resource poor You know, I mean you've got hungry right now is in it has a dictatorship, right? Oh for the longest since the collapse of the fucking, uh the wall That was de facto. This is a fish Right.  They're like nothing gets produced in europe and is the people like they're The only way europe can break out of its stupor would be the european union to disappear and for the european dollar to vanish And for them to open up trade among countries to Yeah, I think they work close You know, I think that uh new currencies emerging is probably pretty likely I think that these central bank digital currencies. I don't think we're going to see a global one I think we're going to see many of them because they're going to be easily You're going to be able to easily transfer between them.      I think I think the days of I think the days of germany just going along And sort of floating Is uh, that's going to like it was bad before Yeah, it was bad before but now germany is going to suffer too You know, I mean they're good. They're going through the same Situation they've got a massive welfare state They're huge man They're much immigrants because they don't they have a very low birth rate man They've been they've been importing immigrants since world war two That's why they made a peace treaty on a peace treaty.   It's huge there but but There it's not like their economy is going to come roaring back. Nobody's economy is going to come roaring back so You know when when whether it's an individual a company country When you lose a massive amount of your wealth. Yes You become insular immediately, right? Like you hold on to what you have. Yes You're Cautious of people outside.   Oh, yeah And we could a good example to study how the economy will play out is very similar to the 10 plus years of the japanese stagflation after their economy got crushed so we'll probably Probably dip. I wouldn't be surprised.  I mean it's in The incredibly nationalist right like it returned to like One of the reasons why they're not more of a superpower is they refuse to adopt english language right, right right, I mean, it's it's I I just think that all of these experiments are now out the window and The the central banks had been pushing them, but I think they've all failed like all of these ideas that you were going to have some sort of global hegemony Of a single currency these single sort of governments, you know, whether it's uh The eu or whether it's, you know North american union that they were talking about free trade packs that went across whole continents and whatnot I think that's all out the window man. Like I and and it's not even necessary for control It's not necessary for the central banks to do their thing Divide and conquer is actually going to be much better. Oh, it's easier Yeah, and you're gonna.  This is probably not in the next five years It's going to take a Changing of the guard the political guard, right? So we may be talking 10 years We may be talking 15 years, but I think that this is the path that we're on Like this is the slide that we're going down It's not going back to the trajectory that things were on which was coming together Now what the trajectory is End of the empire breaking apart Yeah We'll see I I think There's My attention will be the obviously America China Very very interested what happens with the india relationship with united states That's super important to the supply chain especially for medicine people understand a lot of our pharmacy pharmaceutical supply comes from india Sun farm one of those big billion dollar companies there And if united states was smart They would re-negotiate the NAFTA agreement with canada and make a stronger not alliance with canada Canada's the only one Uh, I would call it anomaly when it comes to that we're canadians, but it's not like Like in toronto, it's all immigrants like we like most people escape somewhere that sucked That came you know what I mean is like I came from somewhere that sucks To here So it's not like we have this history of united states where we had a civil war and this nationalism and i'm american that the american ho-ha You know, fuck you middle finger type of thing doesn't really exist in canada like there is that canadian pride like there's But it's not like It's not like that like because it's just it's literally the root of the root of canada.  Yeah, it's always been a multi-ethnic society um You know, which is even evidenced by the fact of having two languages as a culture from the you know as a country And the Yeah, I mean north america It will be interesting to see what happens with the us in canada. I thought that the closing down of the borders Was really weird.  What was the Fucking fiat agreement they had what they had to control the currency the oh god. It happened in it Bretton woods Bretton woods.  What's his phone called?  It's a win for us. You know, it's like sure. I'll okay. I can work remote. It doesn't matter So I think There's a lot of opportunities if the dollar does do that Which I think it will For even like united states and canada to do a very similar thing what the eu did not to that degree But they've talked about this million times. They've never done it.   This is my last winter here. I'm done.    Yeah, sure. There's like minus two the other day man.  Yeah, but people are gonna lose their mind when it starts to warm up a little bit and like it's 45 days Well, well, we have our first test this weekend. I don't know what it is fahrenheit, but it'll be 17 degrees Okay, so that's like 60 something Yeah, like, you know, nice nice t-shirt weather. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like that's like go swimming weather in canada. Oh bro patio weather is five degrees five degrees. Hey, that's patio weather man.  It's not really exploited to the degree that it could be but in terms of From agricultural resources to fucking oil to minerals to you know, the the fisheries you name it man. It's like it's ridiculous Right and labor It is just uh, it is just a wealth and then in terms of you know in terms of talent from at at high technical and skilled positions canada like Per capita. It's just killing it So the us is going to need that the us is going to need I think a lot of help I think that the states being Separated from each other and allowed to compete against each other We might see some interesting things on the borders. You know, we might see states trying to do some some We already see places like california that are saying oh, no sanctuary right like sanctuary cities You know, we're going to do this whole situation and what that basically is saying is that we're just going to flout the the work visa Regulations that's what a sanctuary city fundamentally means right? Because what's the what's the punishment for getting busted for for you know working without a visa or whatever you get deported No, we're not going to do that So it could be interesting to see what happens along the border You know if some of these you know like let's say michigan For instance You know the governor's not having a good time with the federal government You know, these are the types of things that could potentially happen. It would be Advantages for the united states if the states would start competing against each other in that way It would a game theory. I always said city states. You want to have a true republic have city states Make them pay up a tiny bit of tax for federal army to have a national army to protect them Because the state army can't do federal wars.  What's a big one in states? Well, nevada has no nevada has no corporate tax nevada. What's the other one big one also silicon Delaware, yeah, Delaware Yeah, we're in portorico like go down there as a territory and have no capital gains tax either I'm all about the territories I'm all about the this is why you guys have it good.  I can't do anything Each promise is pretty much the same Hmm Yeah, I mean if it's the I guess the difference that that has been given up in terms of the american experience is the Uh immigration and customs is uniform Right, so it's like and you've got the federal tax. Yeah But if you but if you can compete on your taxes and you can compete on your customs and immigration Like that's where you kill it You know, oh, yeah that tariff that this state up here is doing we're not going to do that Buddy comes across the border It's like the it's like the new yorkers going to new hampshire to buy liquor Top shelf liquor because that was a big thing that new yorkers would drive up there because they're they're liquor taxes They'd buy top shelf liquor and basically buy it at half price And then they'd come back and they'd sell it They'd bootleg sell hennessey and all this stuff out the back of their car to the strip clubs You know and and so the state of new york was actually following people Like scoping them out in the whole nine and the state of new hampshire was like We're not even going to touch it because this is because the state of new hampshire runs the liquor stores Yeah, yeah, they're state-run liquor stores, right? Same here everything state-run liquor stores Yeah, so they're like so they're like no no no no we didn't see it We didn't see anything happen, you know This is I think there's a lot of opportunities for this.  And you know So i don't know we will we'll have to wait we'll have to wait to see but it's going to be interesting for sure Yeah, and we'll leave it at that man. We've been jamming for an hour and a half about this Long time great talk man. Yeah, um people want to get to know more about you I know you run a couple different things. You have a lot on the go, but the What's the best resource for them to check out? Well, certainly twitter at vin armani But uh, i've got a a newsletter called counter markets That is about it's called trends and stress trends and strategies for maximum freedom is sort of the tag line on it And it is a an agarist newsletter. So we're talking about liberty through the vein of counter economics Economic trends we get into things like cryptocurrency, but we also get into things like ai and 3d printing We've got an awesome mastermind group on telegram as well for subscribers only And we're about three years in on this and we've been predicting a lot of this So if people want to go and check that out, you can actually get your first issue for free Which is the current issue we always offer the current issue for free and you can see if you want to Check it out and subscribe. That's counter markets.com But yeah, besides that man twitter has been where i'm at Recently sort of narrated the empire and and you know, I appreciate you you having me on man It's always stimulating. I always enjoy speaking with you likewise man. Thanks again. Thank you brother


Everyone, welcome to the big impact of open source. You've probably all seen the little small impacts that open source can make. But in this talk, we're gonna talk about some of the things that we never talk about in other talks. Stuff like me and you and nature and gingerbread and other really exciting stuff. So be prepared for some big words. Yeah. So yeah, that's really the big impact of open source. First, let's talk about the most important thing in this talk. After that, you can go out me. Yep. I am Matthias Bort Lesniak. If you still use Twitter, I'm proven pudding there. Yeah. And I'm from outside Oslo in Norway. However, right now I'm based in Hawkes Bay, New Zealand where I'm living with my wife and two kids. So I know everything about life, right? I have been using typo three since 2003. That's a piece of software. I crashed it, went away, tried to write something on my own that didn't work out. So I came back and I've been doing it so well that I'm now in the board of the typo three association. And I'm an open source evangelist at a company called Toujou. So yeah, well, back to the less important stuff. Now, you probably are wondering now by now what typo three is. Yeah, right? Typo three is a PHP based CMS. Never heard about that. It's free and open source. Yup. It's community driven. Totally new to me. It's backed by an association. Heard about that before? And it's got a long history. We're actually 25 years.  So we're very proud of that. But yeah, now you got your most important answers. Now let's head on for the big impact that open source can make in the world. But before we do that, we really have to look at what is open source really? And I mean, yes, you probably know the stuff about you have some code and everyone can see it and use it and change it and those kinds of things. So I expect that you know that. But let's look at the deeper side of what open source actually is. How does an open source project begin? An open source project usually begins with something like that, an itch. Yup. Or if you're allergic, it's not the cat itching, it's you itching. But yeah, someone who wants to do something, you know, it's something that, why isn't there a software for that? Why can't I do that? And then some developer probably goes and writes some code and says, yeah, this is pretty good code. Now I'll show it to the world. Yup, and you put it on GitHub or something and there it is. And if you do that right, it turns out pretty much like the story of the gingerbread boy.  It's a fairy tale. Hmm? Well, for you who haven't heard about it, it's about a mother and the father or a man and a wife, and they so much want a child. And I don't know why they don't have a child, maybe they don't know how to make it. But anyway, they really, really, really wish for it.  Yeah, and she does.  And when she takes him out, he jumps up, he's alive. She's wished hard enough that she's actually got a son, but he's got a will of his own. He runs out of the house and there's a long story about what happens after that. It meets lots of people. Lots of things happen. And that's pretty much what happens to an open source project as well. When it's open source, open sourced, the maker of the software sort of loses control. It's free. It can do what it wants. It meets lots of people along the way. Lots of stuff happens. It has freedom. Freedom is a core thing with open source, but in addition to freedom, there comes responsibility because open source is not about anarchy. Open source is about taking responsibility for something. If everyone took the open source project and made their own version of it, it's a lots of forks. That wouldn't really have made any sense, would it? You wouldn't have benefited from the software if everyone just made their own version. So it actually takes conscious effort to be an active community member in an open source project. And it takes more than one person. Open sourcing a software is not really what makes things happen. It's first when people actually actively participate in the project that you get all of the good effects that we like from open source software. So you also need governance, right? You'd need people to get together, talk together, find out how can we make the best out of what we can and what we want the software to do. But it's also something more actually with open source. Is this your garden? Well, just imagine for a moment that this is your garden, right?  It's so small that that would be like 20 trips to the rubbish dump, yeah. But that's what friends are for. You've got a friend with a pickup, huh? How great, right? You call up your friend and says, hi friend, I've got some stuff you can put in your pickup. Let's drive to the dump. What an outing, yeah. And the friend says, yeah, sure, I'll do that. I'll come and I'll help you and maybe we'll have a beer afterwards and yeah, we're friends. Now what do you do when your friend is finished? Are you going to pay your friend a wage? Say that, well, you work four hours for me, here's. Money for your job? Is that usually what you do with your friends when they come to a party? Do you pay them? No, you might pay your friend the cost of driving, the petrol, for example, for covering the costs. That's okay, but you don't usually pay for the friend to be there. That's why you're friends, right? And that's like open source. You might actually pay for downloading open source software, but once you have it, it's all free, just like a friend. And you know what that looks very much like? It looks very much like love, not the kind of sticky love, but the kind of love that is unconditional love. You give something away and by giving something away, you might get something back that is bigger than what you gave away. But you don't do it just to get something back. You do it just for the sake of giving as well because you know that it helps other people. And that love, it takes more than one person and it takes a conscious effort to keep a friendship going. And when it comes to open source, you give open source away, right? And lots of people download it and they live a life of blissful ignorance about all of these kind of things. That can be irritating sometimes to think about, but let me tell you this, it's actually totally okay that people use open source software without knowing these things about open source that you can get back to it and stuff. Because not knowing is not their fault. But it's also a reason why we need to talk more about what open source is really about. Make people understand what's actually expressed when you make open source software. What's possible? If you think about, well, it takes two to tango. It's not just about me, it's about other people as well. This everyone is a desert. This is my analogy of close source proprietary software. It's a monoculture, right? It is an expression of dependence. Imagine that someone here on the other side of that sand dune owns a watering hole. It's really nice. You know that can be a nice relationship to your neighbor. You can go there and get water when you need it.  What if you're suddenly limited and your neighbor says that, well, in order to get access to water, you need to pay me money. You need a license to get water from my hole. Well, then it's not so nice anymore, is it? This, on the other hand, is an analogy of open source. It shows diversity. It's freedom, but a special kind of freedom that happens here. Any plant can grow here. Anything can happen. But at the same time, for things really to work out here, you can't have competition. You have to have some kind of collaboration and you have to have an understanding of this is only possible because there is an interdependence. If one plant takes over this, it's a monoculture. And it's a plant desert. It's just a field of one thing. On the one side, it's kind of easy when you just have the watering hole there and you can lean back and you know where the water is. You might have to pay some money, but maybe that's easy for you. On the other side, in order to change something, you have to do it yourself. You have to participate in the community. That's the way to bring change with open source. You have to participate in it. It is fine to lean back. It's fine to say, I don't have time, I'm sick today. That's totally okay, but if you want to make the change, you have to make it. That's similar to this. That's similar to the world. That's similar to how the world works in most cases. You can have things decided for you. That's easy sometimes, just leaning back and not participating. But if you want a change in the world, you actually have to make it. In most countries today, we call that democracy. But there is a thing that democracy only works if you understand that there is this interdependence. If you only vote for what's good for you, there's going to be people who don't have it so good. You have to vote for what's good for as many people as possible, really. You have to understand that interdependence that happens in a community. It really asks something of you as a human being. Open source does the same. But many people don't understand what open source is really about. And you can see that very often in government, for example. Governments often don't think open source even when they use it. And you end up with two classical thoughts that I've seen around in different countries. On the one side, the government should do everything. The government should build its own software. The government should own its own software. Yeah? Or some people come and say, well, you know, the private sector should do everything. The government shouldn't do anything. The private sector should own it. The private sector should do it. The government should just pay money to the private sector. That's one way of looking at it. But if you take it to the extreme, it's really proprietary software that you're building. The government might have some software that they use, but they don't show it to anybody else. Or they might pay the private sector to make software that they pay licenses to use. And they can't look into it themselves. But the way that open source works, it adds in a third element into this. That might be hard for many people to notice. And that third element is what many people call civil society. Do you know the term civil society? Sort of? Well, civil society lives between government and private sector. It's any non-profit, any non-governmental organization, non-profits. Your sports team might be a civil society organization if you really ask the question. It's someone's interest being represented by an organization. It's someone's project being represented. And the interesting thing that happens with civil society, we're gonna look at that. Because somehow it happens that civil society actually won the Nobel Peace Prize last year. Mm, it did. Because it brings about democracy and peaceful coexistence. It brings about people's ability to work on their projects outside of government and outside of their work from a personal involvement. So this is the community part. This is the sand from the desert a bit earlier. Look at that sand. There is nothing that holds that sand together. It's lifeless. It's dead. And just to ask you, what do you people mostly do when a desert is expanding? Well, they might move away, but there's one other thing that they can do. Any idea? Reborn station? Hmm? Reborn station? Exactly, they plant trees. Because what happens when you add life to sand is that the life tends to hold the sand together with its roots. But also with all of the organic matter that is created, it holds water in there. The water doesn't just run through. So life, by being there and collaborating, it actually also holds on to what life needs. So it holds on to water, which is quite a nice thought actually, that by adding the life factor into the sand, you create a place where more life can exist. So this thought of community and collaboration, it holds us together. Now back to the slide that I showed you earlier, about typo three. This might sound similar to something you guys know. I think every point here can also apply to Drupal content. So let's look at typo three and Drupal, because we're quite similar. If you look below the surface, well I've downloaded Drupal 10, the core, the sort of recommended distribution, and typo three version 12, the core, the sort of recommended distribution. And we have different ways of doing things. But I've looked at the composer dependencies. And Drupal 10 has 54 dependencies. Typo three version 12 has 98 dependencies. That's not really important with those numbers. It just shows that we have a different approach to certain things. But the important thing is what I'm gonna show you now. Yup. We have 33 dependencies in common between typo three and Drupal. And I'm sure if you install more modules to Drupal or more extensions to typo three, it might actually crawl upward. And a few versions ago, there was even a little bit of typo three in Drupal. Well it was a security patch for PHP, so I don't think it's used anymore, but it was there. So we are already collaborating. We are already codependent on certain things. But what's funny with the open source community often is also that we haggle a bit or sometimes we look at each other and we say that, well, those guys haven't understood anything or what? Those guys have spaghetti code and what are they thinking when they're doing that? Yeah. And if there's a security problem in one of our CMSs, we go, oh, we didn't have that one. We're better, right? But there is a dark sky looming above all of our open source projects. And it's been looming there for a while. They're proprietary vendors. And you know what? Well, maybe they've actually understood something essential but they're using it in the wrong way. They talk about open source as one. I met a guy a little while ago who said, yeah, sure, I tried open source once. It didn't work for me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. If there's a security issue in type of three, that affects Drupal too because the closed source proprietary vendors are going to say, well, look at open source, look at what happens. They had a security hole. You can look into the code and you can see all of the bad code they have. Of course, what they don't say is that you can't look into their code. You can't see how much money they put into the bling in the front end and how badly they write the code and how little money they put into security. Of course, but it's a way of doing marketing. So we are actually dependent on each other. And therefore, the first choice for a client, should that be Adobe or Drupal? Should it be Site Core or a type of three? No. The first choice should really always be open source. Should be open source, I don't know. There. I thought I was clicking there, sorry. There, it says open source now. Should be open source always. And you know, that is really the most important decision a client can make. Once you have chosen open source, well, we can compete if we want to. But the real thing that comes into play with open source is actually expertise. It's how well an agency can do something, how well the features of a certain piece of software fits with the client. And because it's open source, you're not losing money from choose, an agency doesn't lose money necessarily from making someone choose one or the other. But it's really about trying to make the best decision for the client. And not ending up with a client saying that well, they tried open source and it didn't work. We have to do open source, right? We have to do open source the open source way. Using open source is not always enough. Here's a story about a phone call that we had in the type of three association a number of years ago, like five years ago. Is it 2019? Yeah, no, that's four years ago. We got a phone call from the government of Randa. You get any of those? We got one. They said they had 250 type of three installations that they needed to upgrade. And we went, wow, we didn't even know we had them. But that's how it goes with open source software. But how can we help them? You know, the standard go-to thing for anyone today would sort of be something like this. We would recommend one of our member agencies to go down there and get stuff done, earn money. Well, how should we choose that agency? Should we say, well, that agency is better than that one? Or would that help us? Would that help our project? We actually thought quite a bit about that, how to solve that. Because this is kind of like development aid in one way. I mean, actually now it's called development cooperation where someone goes in and they help a country with developing economy, for example. Well, yeah, that's the way that happens often is that there is a business in one of our rich countries and they go into a poorer country and they establish an office there and they start earning money and they just export the money from the country. They take the money out. And it's often a closed solution, right? When vendor lock-in, so they actually create financial dependence on their software. The nasty thing about that is that, of course it's not open source, but what it really is is that it's both colonialist and it's exploitative. It's not a good way of doing it in an ethical sense. So we chose to use our community instead. And we chose to try to create independent local businesses. We asked our agencies to donate time from their employees and we paid the employees their travel to Rwanda to train people at local agencies so that they could get the expertise they needed to serve their government. This is how it looked and this is how it looks now. We didn't make those websites for Rwanda. Rwanda made those websites for Rwanda. And just to put that into a newspaper headline. I don't know if any newspapers do these long headlines anymore, but to do it a little bit tabloid, we took a democratic and not-for-profit open source project, type of three. And we supported sustainable and independent local business in a country in the global south. Well, that was locally led, main keyword. It was non-exploitative and it was anti-colonial. The real growth factor for a CMS that is open source is community growth. That is the way to work with open source. More people using open source will inherently be better for you because it will help your software. A software that does not have a community but that is still open source is either financed by some company who has some reason that they want to finance it or the project won't exist. It exists because of the community. So I would say that if you rely on community and you don't have community, your project has actually failed. So therefore we have to focus on community first. That is how we build open source and making people understand this community participation part of software that we see in so many other parts of society. And it trains governance, it trains democracy and it builds civil society. And it turns out the values of open source, they are the values of a healthy society. A well-governed, well-run society has a strong community behind it. Today, democracy is not doing so well everywhere. It's under attack. And I think that if you look at any country in this world, there's places where you can say that, well, it could have done better. Well, open source strengthens that civil society that strengthens democracy everywhere. And that's why when you work with an open source project like Drupal in your business, you're not only helping your clients, you're participating in something much, much bigger. And that is the big impact of open source. Thank you. Then the man with the moustache at the back of the room has a question. One of the coolest and weirdest open source ever. Two minute long episodes telling stories like this that are really fresh and different and I really find that Matthias' perspective on this stuff is important and he's thinking bigger than I would like to. So thank you for that and everybody listens to them because they're wild. And second, I'm really proud to say that Matthias works on our team over 10 few partners and didn't work on the store. So... Yeah, so for all of those who didn't hear all of that, Jam said that you should go to opensourceutopia.com and it's great and I forgot to put his company name on my slide, which I'm sorry about. Yes, Schnitzel. I talked with this guy earlier and I gave him a hundred dollars, which is why he's asking that question. Um... Swiss francs. Okay. Well, the thing is that there's a good example out there today where Drupal. It's better than any other example I have from the type of three world. So I keep telling it to people in the type of three world as well. And it's from Australia. You know, Drupal has been big in Australia. It's still pretty big in Australia, but there is a company from another country called something A-Do-B. Yeah. They've been doing some good marketing. They have a lot of marketing dollars and they recently had a project with some DXP features. Well, a long story short, as I understand it, it didn't go very well because it turned out those features weren't working the way that they should according to Australian law and stuff like that. And the Australian government now wants to pay a hundred million Australian dollars a year to A-Do-B for developing these features. Yeah, that's what anyone would do, wouldn't they? Pay a hundred million dollars a year to a country, no, to a company that is in a different country and that will just develop stuff that you will never see the code for, right? Well, just imagine if they paid a hundred million Australian dollars a year to the Australian agencies and got them to develop software and then all of the stuff that they developed, they could also use for other projects and they could earn more money, employ more developers, get more stuff done and be good for Australia. And in addition, they would work with the Drupal Association, which you should become a member of and support the Australian democracy in essence and what government in the world would say no to investing in something that supports their fundamental values? Yeah, and that can happen to open source projects as well. And I think that building an awareness in the open source software world about what open source really means and talking about what democracy and interdependence actually means and the rest of the world as well is an important way to defend against those kind of things happening. And I forgot to say what you said, but it was this thing about the commercial takeover of government, I guess. Yeah, so the question was regarding open core, where you don't open source everything, but you open source some things. And yeah, yeah, that's, yeah. And there, well, how much time do we have? There is a lot to say about that. And I think what's really important is actually that I think a lot of companies don't realize that by open sourcing everything and making everything available, you're also making it possible for everyone to make your services better. And I think it's a misunderstood thing that open source is a product. I think open source is very much connected to a service when it comes to earning money. And that service will always benefit from the community. And the thing you're actually competing on is expertise in the end. Very short. Good. Did you have another question or? Well, talk afterwards, okay, good. No more questions. Oh, there's a question. It's in the middle of happening. So, you know, check in a year's time, but it's, come up here and talk in the microphone because I can't repeat all of that. And I'm sorry, it's a wired microphone. So yeah, I want you to talk into this ice cream cone here. Yeah. Yeah, so we, our open source hosting solution actually hosts GraphCMS. That's the project that you're talking about. It's a Drupal-based distribution and they moved away to Adobe because they said they have better features and then in the end it turned out that they can't use the features like you mentioned. And so there's all these discussions. The problem is though, it's really like, Drupal doesn't have a marketing department. Like that's the thing. So even though we have this case now, there's still this move or this possible because Adobe can invite all these politicians and can invite all these people to this events and can like do all these things. And of course, there is like laws around this but it's just, it's very hard if the people that sit in the decision chair don't understand Drupal or don't understand open source as you're saying because it doesn't actually matter if you talk about to a type of three or not. It's very hard to get them to understand this. Now, on the level on Australia, like there are a lot of people there that understand the good of open source. Actually some tenders or RFPs, they include if you find a similar product that is open source, you have to use the open source one. So that's great. But somebody has to add this into the RFPs and if it's not there, like this is very hard. I mean, I'm like, we're still struggling. Even though this is a great case with Adobe, they're still pushing very, very, very, very hard. And I don't know how to solve it unless to talk to these people trying to explain them open source and stuff like that. But it's just much, much, much harder to explain the open source way than Adobe showing flashy things that look great. Like you're trying to explain somebody why they should not use the cool things with an argument of that, that's very hard. So thank you. And the man with the mustache again?  Because then you have to talk in the microphone. Thank you. So I know a bunch of the people involved and the scandalous problem in Australia is that they have an incredible Drupal distribution. 133 government departments are running their sites so that they have an internal service model. They've done everything very well over the years. They get the further development done by local companies, keep the money in the local economy, exactly the sort of thing that we evangelize about, those of us who do that. And yet an Adobe salesperson got the right meeting with the right person and the Australian government committed several hundreds of millions of their dollars to a DXP project without writing a tender. There was no public process, which is probably illegal. And it gets better because the people who are asking for this government, this MyGov portal, there is no legal basis for keeping or processing personal data in Australia that supports this functionality. Therefore the government is spending the money on functionality that is illegal for them to use. So it's completely wasted. Yes, it is funny, right? So Matias and I talk a lot. We both took notes for this talk and wrote two different talks about it and mine is much less. Yours is so much more beautiful than mine. His is very idealistic. Mine is very angry. And the good thing is that they do look like they're going to go down a better route with this. But we as open, so I did a bunch of buffs at other communities and other events and other technologies talking about this stuff to prepare this. And we don't have a common big brand together and we don't have a marketing department but Apple does and Adobe does and IBM does and all these people do. And we have to find a coalition or a big concept or something to go up against those things. I say we and I say we have to but it would help us in this case. The government department that runs GOVCMS in Australia is utterly thrilled with and committed to Drupal and they're incredibly good open source citizens and they've given unbelievable amounts of code and value back to all of us. They have no communication budget at all. They've had a hiring freeze for the last decade and yet they've expanded system that the entire federal government in Canberra uses. Before GOVCMS there were 324 different CMSs in Canberra alone. The government and the national and state capital. Now there's Drupal, right? And three other state governments use it. It's been incredible for the country and they still can't stop Adobe coming in so that's the big thinking point. Another question, yes? Yes, these are kind of problems the kind of things you're looking for a solution for by having a marketing department for Drupal? So Dries was talking about a marketing department in the Dries note. Yes, this is one of the things that needs to happen I think in the Drupal world in type of three we already have a marketing team but let's take a step back and I've already been talking with a few people in the open source CMS associations and stuff about this and why don't we team up? Because this isn't actually about talking about Drupal or type of three or Jumla or WordPress this is about talking up open source and making sure that we make sure that the choice is always open source over proprietary software. We can never win against close source proprietary systems with millions and millions of marketing cash that talk about the features that you could have in the future. You know, we need to do this together so something like the open source CMS alliance you know, it would be very nice to have. You first I think? Yeah, we're always switching because it's like you're saying is it's something flashing the reason why we're in Drupal and I was like we couldn't build hero images with any other software so lack of understanding I think knowledge or organization at least prosper in Drupal is the way we're saying it. So spreading the knowledge about what open source is really about is very important. I mentioned values here, I think values is actually a much better selling point for open source than features in very many cases because I mean, especially governments are sort of supposed to make value-based decisions in many cases, but they don't. And education is extremely important. We've seen that in the EU, in Europe now recently as well about security that there's a suggestion that every developer is responsible for the security of their software which sort of makes some really strange cases for open source like you know, you build a software, somebody else changes it and makes a security hole is that your responsibility?  Yeah, so we need, exactly. Yeah, so we need to fight for the possibility. So yeah, just to repeat for the microphone, it's important that we fight for the possibility to choose open source. And you mentioned the open web manifesto. There's a lot of things out there and reasons why type of three hasn't signed it. It's not out of, well, any bad will. But yeah, and it's more the question of time to process it. But yeah, you know, we actually, I think we need to think community all in our communities. Jam, something like that. Yeah, so that's a huge, I mean, it's the strongest part of the economy in Europe so that's really great for open source. And it took a closed source competitor away. The type of three communities doing really impressive international outreach, including creating a kind of good digital government actionable manifesto, right? What's that thing that? Yeah, so what, for the microphone again, type of three is really popular in Germany and the German federal government has chosen type of three as their go-to platform recently. And then we have been doing a lot of work internationally. Well, both in Randa, I'm going to pop on Ugini next week. And we have created a four pillar plan that anyone can use for setting up locally led non-exploitative anti-colonial projects in the global south. But actually you can actually do it in any country because it applies anywhere. And if anyone's interested, it's in our report which I have a few copies of here. Yeah, so, yeah. And you can't read it, but if you go to type of three.com slash Randa dash report, you can also download it. But yeah, if you have any special interests in it, I'll maybe keep a couple and then someone can come and choose here if you want to read more. And on the second to last page is the reusable four pillar model for doing these kind of projects. But that's a talk in itself.