What do you think of what's going on, the fact that you have a partial government shutdown in a fight over the health care law? My reaction is, you know, America is a very unique country compared to other countries in the world. So, I mean, not just Republicans, Democrats too, you know, they both do something.   So America, you know, I, in my opinion, shouldn't act like that. This is not like an ordinary Latin American country or not like ordinary Middle East country. This is America, you know.  Oh, right. And it works very well, just like we're similar to Obamacare. I read an article about that, also, I heard about news on NPR. National Public Radio, right? Yeah.  But in the long term, if they work together on Obamacare, it will be very helpful for everybody, for Americans. Well, Marat, you made an interest, a good point there, which is that actually Mitt Romney, when he was governor of Massachusetts, Massachusetts, instituted this same kind of what they call the individual mandate, the requirement for individuals like yourself to buy insurance if they currently were not able to buy it through an employer. And but then you saw during the presidential campaign, Mitt Romney then said he was against doing something like this on a national level, that it should be up to each individual state to decide for itself. In my opinion, political criticism in Washington DC is bad because it may global, it may some economics go down. The American has voted for him just to defend the greatest values of America or United States, whether you like. And I presume both parties must work together. And as well as President Obama, he has to agree towards both parties are going to say to him. He has to be submissive to them as well. Because the health insurance is not like in other countries, but a chance must be given or the Senate or the both parties must prove that they are working for the American folks and anyone, whether or either you are rich or you are poor, it doesn't, it doesn't care. It does not matter whatever value you have. The problem is just every American needs to be having health insurance, whether he is rich or whether he is poor, it does not matter. So Nassir, have you been following the news from here in Washington about this week's the partial government shutdown because of a political fight between the Democrats and the Republicans? The Republicans want the President to change his health care law, the new health care law. You have many government operations being shut down, about a third of the federal employees have been sent home indefinitely until this is resolved. Have you been hearing or reading about this in the news in Afghanistan? Yeah, I have a little time to hear the news and I hear this news. And I think this is not good at the fight between themselves. It is not the benefit of the United States. I think they should get peace or talk about peacefully and work peacefully. It is the benefit of the United States and the region of all countries and across the world. I just want them both sides to respect each other and accept the important things. And the thing that the Democrats, for example, Senator Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader in the Senate and the President and others have said is they say they are willing to negotiate but not with a gun to their head is how it is often put that you cannot negotiate when someone is trying to force you to make changes. So how can they find common ground? I mean, if they say one side wants this, the other side wants that, how can they find a way to compromise? Okay, it just takes a little time. They should negotiate with each other because it is by their benefits. If they don't negotiate, I think all the countries of the world will be affected by this because every country follows the United States and the United States is the country which helps to the other countries and the other countries follow the United States rules and I think they should and they must negotiate with each other. Well, I'll say it's an amazing thing that I mean that people pay their tax. I mean people pay their tax so it's not normal, nothing normal can be done. That's what I'm saying.


Okay, we're back here live in Las Vegas for IBM, IOD. This is theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events, district of Central Illinois. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm joined by my co-host Dave Vellante. We'd love to get the experts and the authoritative figures on theCUBE, CEOs, entrepreneurs, but more importantly, we'd love to get the analysts on here because analysts will tell it how it is. Judith Hurwitz, president and CEO of Hurwitz & Associates. Welcome back to theCUBE, Cube alumni. Getting Dave, doing theCUBE with Dave is fun for me because we can just ping-pong back and forth and pass, shoot, score. But when we have another analyst on, when you've been on, when Ray Wang's been on, when Merv's been on, it's been really awesome. So thanks for coming on. My pleasure. Okay, so give us the scoop. What's the take? Give us the quick first inning overview of today for IBM. So it's interesting because what I'm seeing is these elements starting to be brought together, hardware, software. A lot of the issues around analytics, visualization, big data, predictive analytics, cognitive computing, pure data, all of them. I really like the blue announcement. The Neo? The columnar database announcement with blue.  So you've got people, you know, out of the formatively organizations, CEL, whatever, CIA, no, not CIA. NSA? What is NSA? I forget what they're calling it now. No, talk about cognitive computing. What's going on there? What do you mean by that? So cognitive computing brings together big data, machine learning, predictive analytics. And it starts to take all these things together so you're not just looking at what question to ask, but you're looking at patterns and you're seeing sort of what's similar, what's associated to what, what's the context. And that starts to get very powerful as a solution in various industries. So that's gonna be sort of the next stage beyond big data. And I think that that's gonna be extremely important. It builds on it. Yeah, I was gonna ask you, is that a solution? And that's exactly what you're saying. It's bringing all these, because it feels like we got a lot of point products going on and a lot of little innovations popping up all over the place. Sounds like cognitive computing brings it all together. Yeah, cognitive computing does because it really then allows you to start looking at it from a knowledge base. So whether it's in, you know, healthcare or engineering or, you know, manufacturing, to start putting the pieces together to understand next-back action, what this means, what it's telling you about what you should be doing in the future, just for, you know, diagnosing illnesses because there's, you know, part of this is when you look at answers to questions like what's causing this disease, you bring your biases into it. It could be a disease that you've never seen or hasn't, you know, occurred in your country, but your patient may have been to some country that you have no idea what diseases are rampant there. So it really sort of brings in a combination of automation combined with, you know, knowledge coming from lots of different sources. So you guys wrote the book, The Big Data for Dummies book, and of course, things are moving so fast here, but when you wrote that book, it was starting to become clear that all the big players were gonna get involved, whether it was IBM, Oracle, HP, they've all got their big day EMC, they've all got their big data plays. What have you been tracking now? What's sort of changed since you wrote the book and what do you see going forward? So, you know, it's interesting because in some ways, a lot has changed, in some ways nothing has changed because, you know, when you look at something like Big Data, you can get, you can look at all the concepts, but how do you actually implement that? What does that actually mean to real customers? Because, you know, as industry analysts and people, you know, who watch this industry, you assume that, well, everybody's already down the maturity curve and it's not true. A lot of companies are either just getting started or, and what's happening a lot, the companies that are doing a lot of work in this, they're doing this in silos, they're doing in projects and business units. So now we actually have the issue, and this is one thing that I'm tracking, is now all of these silos, we've already had a lot of data silos, but now we have Big Data silos. And there's also the issue of when you go and grab all these sources and you use Hadoop and you go get all of these Big Data sources, they're not clean and you start to bring them in and you have one version of the truth. So you might have one department that's done a Big Data analysis who has now taken some line of business data and some of these data from third-party sources that bring them together. This is what they're doing their business plan on. You've got another unit that's taken a different approach. So now you've got multiple versions of the truth and is, they were talking this morning about veracity and that's actually going to, I think, rise as a much more important issue. So Big Data sources by their very nature are dirty. If it's social media data, some of the results could be that company planting a lot of information about isn't this service grade, we're so happy. How much of what's out there is somebody who's disgruntled and is just saying things that may not be true but they just, they're mad. They're just putting out data. So how much of that data is good? How much of it is junk? How much really is meaningful to what customers, let's say, are really saying about your products? So yes, you want to grab as much data as possible but that's why we talk a lot about going from big to small. It's the small data that's really important to you, not the, the big data is just your starting point. So you see an information quality problem growing up there. Oh yeah, absolutely. What's the answer? Is that a process issue? Is that a technology issue? Combination? Well, it's a combination. It's been able to sort of start off with a lot of data sources but understanding that they're not clean. And then culling from that, where are my patterns? Where are my anomalies? And when you get to that set of data, then you want to look at context. Is this, is there actually a correlation here or is it just something that, you know, I noticed that people who buy toilet paper also buy blue pens. They're, you know, it seems to show up. Is there a correlation? Is it making any sense? No, it just, it's just, it just happens. So you have to make sure that what you're looking at as an association is a correlation actually is meaningful or is it just sort of one of those things that happened? And that happens a lot. So in thinking about how information quality problems were solved in traditional BI and enterprise data warehouse worlds, I mean, ERP obviously helped a lot. But even with ERP, sometimes you had certain systems that are more up to date than other systems but at least there was knowledge of that discrepancy. It feels like with big data and particularly with social data, you know, you hear about info streams. I mean, this stuff is happening in real time. How are organizations going to solve that data quality problem when everything is so fuzzy? Do we have to change the mental model of what is quality? Well, no, no, I don't think you change the mental model. It's when you get to that subset of data that is meaningful either because there's a pattern there or something that doesn't match the pattern, then you have to apply data cleansing and tools that look at master data, that look at governance requirements. I think the other thing that's really important here is that when people are looking at huge amounts of data and they may be taking data that's been masked where there are regulations that say you can't show social security numbers. A lot of times when data is being moved into, for, you know, ingested for big data analysis, it unmasks the data. So all of a sudden this data in flight is now unmasks and in terms of governance, that's something that people have to pay attention to. The governance question came up, truth about iteration.  The idea of pulling back, getting it all together, reviewing it and then unleashing it is the old way and that data quality always creeps into it no matter how good you clean the data. So there needs to be a process of getting it out there and then managing the data kind of in real time. Well, managing the data in real time and making sure that that masking doesn't go away as data's in flight because it- So what do customers do and what's their choices? I mean, do they have any options? Is it simply a vendor issue? Is it an open source technology? What's that look like? I think it's a vendor issue. I think you have to look- Just pick the right vendor. Yeah, I think you have to look for vendors that are aware of that issue. You know, when you use open source, for example, you have to make sure that when you use that, you use it in combination with a vendor that understands the governance issues that you're required to follow. Is this a tempest in a teapot or is this going to be the way it's going to go? No, it's going to go this way.  That's it. Data entry. Well, we heard the data genie. Although we want three wishes, though. Okay, number one, make the big data go away. We heard in New York last week from one of the CTOs. Once the data tap gets turned on, you can't turn it off. No, you can't. And what happens is then people want more data. And where that will actually lead us is to data visualization because, you know, the more data, you know, you start to collect, and then, you know, now it's not just this little pot of data that you want to look at. It's now, it's actually really big. And actually my first experience was this, was an infinity pharmaceutical in the Boston area. They actually, we did some work with them years ago, where what they were doing is they would take huge amounts of data about molecules that might have an affinity for each other. And they used the data visualization tool to see where these clusters of affinities were. If you didn't do that, there was no way that they could go look at everything. Oh, does this one like this one? So that's a way of using visualization to in effect control the fill rate of the data lake or data ocean. Right, right, exactly. So visualization I think will become the front end to big data. So, you know, everybody talks about putting data, big data analytics in the hands of business users beyond just the power analyst. Isn't visualization sort of the path to doing that? Yeah, I think visualization is, I also think that we will have to get to areas of abstraction.  If we actually do, this industry will have failed. Yeah. Really, because if we don't have layers of abstraction that abstracts the complexity, we will never have enough data scientists. So you'll know that the industry's really made progress in terms of maturation when you don't need so many data. Yeah, you're saying data science doesn't scale. It doesn't. Data scientists. Well, we know. You know, when the automobiles first came out, the biggest problem that people pointed to, will we ever have enough show first? Really? That was gonna be the limiting factor and how many automobiles would be bought. Another great soundbite. So again, but again, last week to bring the data point from BigWolf Data NYCR event we had last night, which Strata had an event kind of with us as well, same time, was this estimated about 20, 200,000 data scientists out in the global market, about 200,000, give or take a few here or there. And two million analysts. And that number is understated. So I think this notion of knowledge worker we were riffing earlier was, that was the Nirvana of the 90s, the knowledge worker. Now, you can shake your phone and get analytics. So the iPhone and the Edge device. And I think, you know, and there are definitely issues there, I knew somebody working for a company that is doing one of the social media campaign for scientific data. So they went to Google Analytics because these were science types. And they said, look, our Google Analytics score didn't go up, how come?  It's sort of working. There's a lot of gamification going on. People are trying to game this. They are trying to game the system. And they just changed the algorithm then everyone who's gaming it, I get it.  You know, so it's sort of a funny world right now. Yeah, it's kind of like market share data. Right, exactly. That's never game, does it? No, never. Never, I didn't think so. How about this idea of a chief data officer?  We heard it at the MIT conference. Do you see that as a role that is going to emerge? And will that role be reporting into IT? Will it be distinct from IT? What's your take? I actually think there will be part of IT. But it'll be more of a committee between the, because, you know, it's an IT issue in terms of data cleanliness, getting the data sources in, manipulating them, abstracting them the security. But it's not just an IT issue. It really is a combination of what IT does and what data the business needs. And sometimes I won't even know what they need. You know, if you know exactly what question to ask, you probably don't need big data. Because, you know, your universe is small enough to know exactly where the data is, you know exactly what to ask. But if you're in an ever-changing market or a very competitive market, you know that there are a lot of sources and it's figuring out what new sources you need to bring in. So the idea of the chief data officer, I think it's too, it's just a pipe dream. So how do you say it's a pipe dream? Too early or it's inferred, it's inferred? Requirements? It's not just one person. What does a chief data officer do? Let me go see if I can find some more data for you. You know, no, you can't do that with the data. What's their job? Kind of like hiring social media consultants in 2009. Well, they don't know what to do because it hasn't been done yet. In a regulated industry, like financial services and government and health care, the job is to cover your butt. But then, you know, that's the, you know, chief security officers is not, isn't that their role? So how is that done? Only in part, right? Because there's data quality issues, there's data governance, information management, certainly security, data science. You could expand that role, that's a. But again, is that one, is that one? Well I think what she's saying is the use cases are not defined, so you're essentially, it's a moving train. And what you're saying is that you can limit the scope, like a chief security officer say, your job is to protect the assets. Yeah, but how can you isolate that? Okay, I'm only concerned with the security of the data. It's a slippery slope. I'm concerned with the, making sure I have the right business data. Some, so, you know, maybe it's a team of people. I think it's too big. It's depending on the industry and the individual. Dave Laverde talked about today, who owns the data? Is it IT or the business unit? It's a squabbling mess. He said nobody owns the data. Everybody owns the data. No, I mean, and it becomes a political issue.  Wait a minute, that data's mine. Oh, but I'm trying to, no, you can't have it. It's my data. It's from my clinical trial, you can't have it. Yeah, so you'll never get to a single version of the truth without some kind of standard. Well, you'll never get to a single version of the truth anyway. That's true. Yeah, I mean, we're further away than we've ever been from a single version of the truth. Yeah, but nonetheless. And it's going to get worse before it gets better because we have so many silos. How about privacy? I want to ask you about privacy, because particularly in financial services, you hear about the three big use cases are risk, which really credit risk, marketing, let's sell some stuff and fraud, you know, fraud detection. And particularly, you know, the credit risk is interesting because you now confer from data race, religion, sex, obviously. I mean, so many different things that you're not supposed to use to make a decision about credit worthiness and there's some law that says you can't do that. Is this going to be self-policing? Will organizations actually be trusted to do that? I mean. You know, I think it's the Wild West right now. And I don't think we've solved that yet. And I think, you know, I think people will go, I mean, look at Facebook with some of the issues they've had. So some of it will be the marketplace and the consumers pushing back. So I think it'll sort itself out, but right now it's going to be the Wild West because you can't, you know, you can figure out just about everything. So what's some of the stuff that Hurwitz is working on, some of the cool things that you guys are doing? Well, we are doing a new study on predictive analytics. We came out with our Victory Index predictive analytics two years ago and we're updating it now. So that's going to be exciting to see what customers are, we look at it from a variety of perspectives, what customers are saying, you know, how these vendors are presenting themselves to the customers, what the value they're offering and, you know, what's their vision for the future. So we'll be redoing that. We're doing a smaller study, you know, quick study on maturity in big data. Looking at it, we actually just came out with a new paper about securing the cloud that we just did and, you know, sponsored by IBM. We talked to a bunch of customers about how they are using, you know, security in context with really customer facing cloud services. What do you make of IBM's, you know, cloud play? They obviously made a big move with soft layer. Yeah, I think soft layers is really, we'll put them in a very strong position. It's a very strong offering because it allows you both to use multi-tenancy and to be on bare metal. So it's a very strong platform. Yeah, management, bare metal, but now, so, and it was a big hole that they had to... It was a big hole. But some have said, including John Furrier, wow, it's really just hosting. I was talking about soft layer earlier. I'm not big on soft layer. So you're not sold on soft layer? No, not at all. I'm pretty positive. Judith's pretty positive. Why are you not sold on it? Yeah, I'm positive on it. I mean... I'm not negative negative in it, but it just doesn't feel $900 million for essentially a hosting company. I don't have all the data, so I'm just cheap at the moon here, but... You have to look at what do you mean by hosting? A cloud solution is hosting. I mean, depending on the automation. I trust you guys will talk about it more. Well, it's self-service, because it can be on-demand pricing. But if you look at those cloud-like attributes, that's what I look at. It smells like the cloud. It quacks like a crowd out. It does quack like a cloud duck. You'll agree with that, right? See, I didn't realize that quacking was a technical term in the cloud. Yeah, but I'll take your word. We're going deep here. But it doesn't smell like software-defined data center, okay? You think about virtualization. You're talking about commoditization, horizontally scalable, integrated stacks, like we see the success with Amazon's happening. Do you really think there's a software-defined data center right now? No, but we do a lot of research looking at software-defined networks. I think Amazon is. Looking at virtualization. Do you think Amazon is not? No, I don't. I don't. I think that basically it's a bunch of instances. They do have a certain amount of manageability, but I'm not sure that if you think about the way a lot of people use Amazon services is because it's cheap, and I say that in quotes, depending on- It's easy. It's easy. It's easy for a developer. So they're winning the developer market. And it's cool. They're losing the SLA market. They're losing developers a lot. No, they're winning the developer market. Well, have you ever read their SLA? Yeah, yeah. It has three words in it. No problem. Well, some they don't have SLAs on some of the high-end computing. Yeah, but you know what, though? I challenge anybody to go find a better SLA for a public cloud. I mean, they all stink. No, there is- On paper. Go ask Sarah Mark what their public SLA is. They can't even get it. No, the SLAs for these companies are written by a lawyer to protect that company. They have nothing to do with protecting- With the actual service level. With how the customer's protected. Right, it's an indication of how much risk the lawyers are willing to let the company take. So to me, it's largely meaningless. It's not an indication of what the actual service level is. It's not an SLA. I agree. It's legalese to protect them against anyone saying, I'm down, it's your fault. They're basically meaningless because they can't, you know- But right now- Expose themselves. Right now the conversation is just soft layer Amazon. Amazon, from a developer standpoint, has a lot of seamless capabilities, very scalable. A lot of the stack that they have is integrated in. But from a developer, software developer, it's a dream environment. From an IT role and get out as an enterprise, whole different ballgames. There's no purpose built hardware on Amazon, than I know of. It's, I'm calling it the iPhone of the data center. That is truly, Oracle will never be that. Although Larry Ellison claims he's the iPhone of the data center. I will maintain that Amazon is wonderful for picking up services, doing things fast. They have done a wonderful job on- Test dev, just like VMware was five years ago. Right, right. Do you not see it evolving beyond that? Amazon, I would not put it past them to evolve. But today I also think that if you want to deploy something really big, if you're offering services to your customers for a fee, then it's going to be very expensive. Oh, I agree with that. Rental from Amazon is always going to be more expensive. Right, and it looks cheap at the outset. The other thing that companies are contending with is that there are bits of Amazon all over their enterprises. And then how do you do governance on that? Because they don't even know where it is. And they don't know what's running on it. So Amazon would disagree with that. So I used to have that, I've said that before, and Amazon would say we have the transparency to be able to let you know. In fact, you know what they said? They said that before you deploy an S3 instance, you have to declare where you want it to go to reside. Yeah. Now, it can't reside in Germany. So in Germany, they allow them to reside in Ireland. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying something different. So I am the CIO. Right. And there are 85 divisions in my company. I get it, yep. Yeah, it's a nightmare.  Turns out that it's going to be something that's really strategic IP. It's out there. Yeah, and it's different. And I'm the CIO. And it's outside the scope of your governance criteria. Right. And it's not necessarily bad or good. It's just different. But then it comes inside my governance. And the CIOs don't know it's out there. But that's not Amazon. That's any cloud. Do you agree? It depends on the cloud and how it's managed. Now the difference is, The question is, Now help me with this. The difference is IBM would say, we'll write the SLA however you want us to write the SLA. We'll work with you hand in hand to change that. And I think, I think Amazon would say, here's our SLA. Take it or leave it. Yeah, that's the difference. And it depends what your use case is. If your use case is, I'm doing pilot projects. I'm trying out things. And it's fine because, and then when I'm putting it in production, I may move it inside because I'm going to actually, something like a State Street or a big corporation that doesn't have direct customers, but they provide services to companies who then provide it to their customers. Do you want to have that overhead of paying, in addition to your own infrastructure that you're going to support, then you're going to pay a fee to Amazon and then you- I agree with that. That's where Amazon's challenging. When you want to bring it back on premise, Amazon's not going to help you facilitate that in a way that maybe IBM would or another on-premise provider. Their bet is keep it in the cloud. I think that we're still early with the cloud. What do you think about IBM's social business manifesto and their positioning that they're coming out with? I mean, they've been down this row before. We love Lotus Notes, all that. They've had a lot of efforts going on, unified communications going back, many, many years. They're not new to the technical concept, but if you look at their overall strategy and what they're doing from a software perspective, it's not anymore these separate independent standalone products. It's really infusing social media into big data solutions, into commerce, into whatever the particular solution is. So I think it's a much better approach for them than trying to compete with the small social media companies. It makes a lot more sense. They seem to be bundling it in, but I mean, they have a great vision. I mean, IBM- I think the vision's good. They have a lot of experience internally. The whole unified communication thing just seemed like a legacy PBX market. They seemed like they were always incrementally bolting on to voice over IP. Yeah, and I think they had trouble with that. I do think connections has actually gotten some, some traction in the market. I'm starting to see, there are a bunch of companies in the collaboration space that are trying to be aggregators of different platforms, bringing them together, adding governance or whatever to it. And they're starting, so they're telling me that connections are starting to pop up as an important platform. Yeah, how about Cloud Brokerage Service? I don't know if you saw the service mesh. CSC bought service mesh. Right, right. Do you expect more of those types of deals? Is that a key acquisition? Are you mean from a broker standpoint? Yeah, I think so, but it'll probably be a few more years before that sort of the norm. But I think it has potential there. Have you been tracking the whole pivotal thing, what I call the misfit toys, that they ultimately get a great financial move and stick it under pivotal and get 100 million from GE and all of a sudden they get a billion dollar valuation? I mean, a brilliant financial move, great financial move. Largely Green Plum still, right? In terms of revenues. I mean, Green Plum has a good reputation, whether you can take Green Plum and all of the open source stuff, Cloud Foundry, and Gemfire, and Gemfire, and Sequelfire, and bring it all together and have something cohesive. I guess I'm still a little skeptical, maybe more than a little skeptical. Yeah, ways to go, one dot oh is not there yet. Okay, guys, great, we're on time here, we're getting the hook here. So this has been a great conversation. Final word to Judith, what should the folks expect to hear for the next day or two here at the IOD? What are you expecting IBM to talk about and what do you think that's gonna connect into into the marketplace? Well, I think that we're seeing a lot of it now. It's bringing a lot of threads together, not as many small, little products. We're announcing version 4.6.2 up. You're seeing a lot more solutions-focused, a lot more customer-centric, outcome-centric. So I like the fact that the messaging is much more around customer-facing, outcome-facing. So I think that you'll hear a lot more of that. Bringing together governance, manageability, predictive data, beginning of discussions around cognition, which we'll see a lot more of. Okay, the analysts break it down, the horses on the track, horses for courses, as Dave would say. This is theCUBE, love the analyst action. Of course, we'll always have our commentary and opinion here in theCUBE. We'll be right back with our next guest after this short break. This is theCUBE live from Las Vegas, IBM's exclusive coverage of IOD, hashtag IBM IOD. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back.


Okay, why don't we go ahead and get started? Good morning. Welcome to Houston. I'm Chris Wood. I'm a member of the Department of Urology here at MD Anderson. Just a few housekeeping issues. If you do have any housekeeping issues, please see the conference staff members at the registration desk and they'll be happy to assist you. Just to let you know, our conference today will be producing a live stream YouTube broadcast as well as a videotape for webcast to be posted for the kidney cancer association website at a later date. As we are streaming live today during our question and discussion sessions, I'd like to ask you to not identify yourselves or any patients you may reference during a question presented to our panel members. There will be no facial recognition caught by our cameras of the audience, only audio. And please be certain you fill out the authorization for the use and disclosure of protected health information form in return to my Secretary Carol at the registration desk. Please silence all electronic devices during the duration of the day. If you need to place any phone calls, please step outside the room to avoid taping interruptions. We have scheduled two breaks, one at 10.30, one at 2.10. And lunch will also be provided at 12 noon. Seating for lunch is available in rooms one, two, and three on the opposite side of these conference rooms. And for those of you who want to attend, we have scheduled a luncheon meeting with the Department of Social Work. These are two separate closed session meetings. One for patients and one for caregivers. The caregiver meeting is in the telemedicine room and the patient meeting is in room four. Staff members from the Department of Social Work will meet with both groups to facilitate an open discussion session. And then finally we'd like to thank our conference supporters, both Pfizer and Genentech. So welcome again to Houston. We're going to try a very different format this year. We've done this, I don't know, maybe the last five years I think here in Houston.  So we're going to try a totally different format and we do need your feedback. If you like this format, then let us know. If you hate this format, then also let us know that and we can switch back or maybe have a mixture of the two. But this is what we in the health profession call a tumor board. And basically this is how we practice medicine. We take difficult cases that present to us and present them to our colleagues and get their opinions about how best to manage it. And we pick these cases so that hopefully we can cover what we would normally cover during the didactic sessions. We have a very esteemed expert panel. We have Jose Caram, who's on the faculty at MD Anderson with us. Roberto Pili is visiting us. He's a medical oncologist. We have Scott Delacroix, a urologist. Michael Harrison, another medical oncologist. Brian Chapin, urologist here at MD Anderson. Cameron Arar, who's an interventional radiologist, who is an expert in ablation. Serena Matine, another urologist. Nazar Taneer, and myself. So if I could first have the panel come up for the localized and locally advanced disease, that's Jose, Nazar, Michael, Serena, Brian, Scott, and Cameron. And hopefully we have enough chairs. So during the course of the case presentations, if you have questions, please don't hesitate to get up, step to the mic. And I'll acknowledge you and you can ask your question. If you have a question about what somebody says or things are not clear, please let us know. In all fairness and against my wishes, these guys have already seen the cases. So they've already probably prepared some of their answers, but I'll do my best to try and confuse them with the best I can. All right, so let's start with our first case. This is a 52 year old white female who presented with a history of metastatic carcinoid. And during the course of her evaluation for her carcinoid was noted to have an incidental renal mass. She also has a history of Hodgkin's lymphoma, cervical CIS, thyroid cancer, diabetes, and hypertension. She's had numerous surgeries in the past. She's had a splenectomy, a partial liver resection, partial stomach resection. Her gallbladder's been removed, her uterus has been removed, as well as her thyroid. She has an excellent performance status, meaning she has no side effects from her disease. Her labs are all within normal limits and her CT scan of the chest is negative, meaning no evidence of any metastases to the chest. Here's her scan, and you can see here in her left kidney, medially, she has a solid mass present that enhances with the administration of contrast. There's two views here. And I guess I'm gonna throw this out to first Dr. Matine. How would you approach this patient? What would you offer this patient and why? So I think the first thing that everybody thinks of is whether this is the carcinoid that's spread to the kidney, right?  And what we've learned over the years is that, first of all, carcinoid doesn't go to the kidney very often. And secondly, metastatic lesions to the kidney tend to have a somewhat distinct appearance in that they're not actually very well vascularized for whatever reason. So anyway, my first instinct looking at this is that it's probably not this carcinoid, depending on what the status of that was, that if it's sort of widely metastatic, then I would reconsider. But if it looks like it's one of these smoldering, for those of you that don't know, carcinoid has a very long history. Patients can live with it for a very long time. It's still not a great disease. But anyway, my point with this is I think, depending on what the status of her carcinoid was and how active it was at the time, continuing to observe it would be reasonable given its size. And I can go into that more if you wanted to. All right, so you're recommending just observation. You wouldn't recommend any intervention. Yeah, and I think I just need to hear a little bit more about what's going on with her carcinoid, what kind of interventions she's had and things like that. You saw the surgery that she's had. Those were interventions. Currently, she has no other disease aside from the serenal mass. Yeah, so in that setting, I think continued observation is reasonable and the alternative is for her to have this treated and resected and a part of it, the patient has to be involved with the choice.  Yeah. No, listen, I think because carcinoid has such a long history, I think treatment would be what I would probably recommend. And what would that treatment be? Options would be a partial nephrectomy, either open or robotic or doing ablative therapy. It's a little bit tricky for that and maybe Cameron wants to comment on that. What would you recommend, though? What would I recommend? Sir, I would do a robotic partial. You'd do a robotic partial. Dr. Delacroix, what would you recommend for this patient and why? I would do an open partial nephrectomy, especially given her history of multiple abdominal surgeries. I'd wanna go through a flank incision and do an open robotic partial. Yeah, I would think it would be very challenging to do anything lapyscopically after having stomach, liver, spleen, everything else for a second. I mean, if you had to point, pin me down, I'd say open partial, but active surveillance would also be reasonable. Open partial. Okay, Cameron, what about ablation? Do you think this is something that could be ablated? Yeah, so for those of you who don't know, thermal ablation can be done either in the operating room or in a radiology suite using an MRI or a CT scan. We look at a tumor. Two things that are most important to consider. One is the size of the tumor. The other one is the location of the tumor. In this case, this tumor being less than four centimeters is a good candidate. The location, like Dr. Matin said, is a little tricky, is a little close to the hyalum of the kidney where the connection to the ureter is and excessive heat or excessive cooling of the tumor can damage the drainage of the kidney. So in this case, I think I would suggest that we can ablate this. We would take some measures to protect the kidney, the inside of the kidney, the ureter, the UPJ from excessive heating. Yeah, we can ablate this. Would anyone consider a biopsy of this lesion? I noticed no one said biopsy. Would anyone do a biopsy? Sorry. You go first. So, yes, we actually, so the concept of biopsy is a tricky one to discuss. As you know, before the days of ablation and this dates back before 2000, really, the appellation has gained acceptance since 2000, 2001. But before the days of appellation where all of these tumors were taken out surgically, nobody did biopsies. Still, even now, when a surgery is planned, we don't biopsy these tumors. 85, 90% of them are thought to be renal cell carcinoma and they go to surgery. Some of them do turn out to be benign. In this particular case with prior history, I think it's reasonable to do a biopsy. The question becomes whether you do the biopsy a week before so that you know exactly what you're treating or you go in with the intent to treat the tumor, but you take a biopsy at the time of the treatment for follow-up purposes to know what it was that was treated. So, yes, I would definitely incorporate it into the treatment, whether you do it ahead of time or at the time of the procedure. That varies. And Cameron, I'd like you to comment on one thing. Many patients bring up the concept of, you know, when you biopsy a tumor that it could potentially pull cells out of the tumor and potentially seed the cancer. And also, could you speak to maybe the MD Anderson experience with regards to the accuracy of biopsy? How often do you actually get a result that's meaningful? So, yes. The risk of track seeding, as Dr. Wood mentions, putting a needle inside the tumor and taking some of the tumor out, does it increase the risk of seeding the track? Traditionally, when I went to medical school, people said, my professor taught me never touch a kidney cancer.  Don't put a needle in it. But that has changed drastically over the years. We have now learned that we don't see this. The entire concept of track seeding for kidney biopsy is based on six individual case reports that were reported in probably 70s. And since then, a lot of the research has been done on biopsies before surgery or before appellation or for medical therapy have shown that biopsy is very safe. The risk of track seeding or seeding the area that the biopsy is less than 1%. And that's true for majority of tumors. Now, there are some questions about some sarcoma, some transitional cell carcinoma, and other tumors other than kidney cancer. But generally accepted in this day and age, the risk of track seeding is less than 1%. Our experience has been very positive. Being a cancer center, biopsy is one of our most common procedure in interventional radiology. We're pretty good at it. We can get small tumors. We can get large tumors. We can get tumors that are partially or nearly completely dead, but they have a nodule, very small part of it that's alive and we go after that and we get that. And our results are pretty much 90% diagnostic, 90%, 95% diagnostic. Very rarely you will have false positive, almost never heard of. Occasionally you will have false negative, that is there is cancer but we didn't find it. That happens probably about 5% of the times. Anyone else have any other comments? So this patient actually underwent ablation. Cameron, you probably did this ablation. I did, yes. Do you wanna just sort of take us through the thinking behind us? I guess questions I have are, when do you decide to do cryoablation versus radiofrequency ablation? And how did you decide on this approach versus some other approach? Sure, so a couple of things I need to explain first. There are two ways you can treat the tumors by means of thermal energy. You can either heat it to excessive temperatures, almost nearly boiling water temperature pretty much and heat up an area where we call appellation zone, which engulfs not only the tumor but a little bit of a normal kidney around it.  That's one, it's called radiofrequency appellation. The other end of the spectrum is actually cooling the tumor to temperatures minus 180, 160 degree centigrade which creates a very cold ice ball which essentially kills all the cells that are engulfed in that ice ball. Both technologies are available pre-cutaneously and both are effective. Now every time you look at a tumor you decide which technology would be more appropriate or which one you would feel more comfortable. There are some minor technical details that I don't wanna bore you with but in this particular case we decided to do radiofrequency appellation and in fact we had our urology colleagues come to our suite and place a catheter up the ureter into the kidney where they could actually infuse where we could infuse cold water inside the kidney where we are heating the tumor right next to it so that inside the kidney would be protected from the excessive heat. We normally place one, two or three of these needle-like electrodes. Chris if you wanna highlight it with the mouse they can see it. We placed one, two or three of those needle-like electrodes between the tumor and we created an appellation zone that covers the entire tumor. This technology has been available since 2000. Nowadays we think it's about 95%, 90, 95% effective. Okay very good.


Lux presents Hollywood Company the makers of Lux toilet soap bring you the Lux radio theater starring Clifton Webb, Colleen Gray and Robert Stack in Mr. Belvedere Goes to Collie Ladies and gentlemen your producer Mr. William Keelan Greetings from Hollywood ladies and gentlemen On rare occasions a character in a picture or play will become so identified with one star that the audience simply can't imagine anyone else in the park Now that's the way it is with Mr. Belvedere and Clifton Webb It all began in a delightful comedy called Sitting Pretty and the public admired Mr. Belvedere and Clifton Webb to such a fabulous extent that a sequel was immediately demanded 20th Century Fox came through a few months ago with a second hit Mr. Belvedere Goes to College You'll hear it tonight with Clifton Webb as the versatile and ubiquitous Lynn Belvedere and starring with Mr. Webb, Robert Stack and Colleen Gray Colleen Gray as a co-ed is quite typical of the standard of beauty among American college girls You know there's one thing these girls seem to learn long before they go to college and that's the best way to take care of a beautiful complexion Like the screen stars the smart co-eds depend on luck's toilet soap care Once again you meet the famous Mr. Belvedere as the curtain rises on the first act of tonight's play Starting Clifton Webb in a title role Colleen Gray as Ellen and Robert Stack as Bill On a bright autumn morning a visitor pauses at the gates of Clemens University Then with an air of mixed boredom and determination, he starts across the campus Hey, the tickets for the Wabash game, they're on sale now What were you going Joe? You bumped right into the statue Hey, who is this statue anyway? Who is it? That's Mr. Lux Lux Who? Mr. Lux Lux, can't you read what it says there? Lux Metis Lux Orbis Yeah, but what's it mean? Search me, maybe he's the guy who invented the soap they advertised the radio Lux Mentis, Lux Orbis Huh? Oh The light of the mind is the light of the world Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle The point is well taken Can either of you add a lessons direct me to the office of the dean Huh? Oh, oh, yeah, straight ahead to the library at two blocks right Thank you Well, who's that guy? New prop I guess. Come on, Joe, let's get our tickets So you are Lynn Belvedere That is correct, Dean Gibbs I can't tell you how happy my wife would be to learn that I've met you She read your book, you know Said it was a work of art Yes, it is Now, just what can I do for you, Mr. Belvedere? You may register me in this university What on earth for? Ten thousand dollars I don't follow Dr. Gibbs, my novel Hummingbird Hill has just won the Morehouse Award Consisting of a gold medal and ten thousand dollars in cash Well, surely the money doesn't mean anything to you Money is the root of all evil. I respect it The less I have of it, the more I respect it And at the moment I have the greatest respect for it But you must have made a fortune on your book I also lost a fortune in libel suits I am, in legal terms, a pauper But what has all this to do with postgraduate work here at Clemens? Not postgraduate work I wish to register as a freshman A freshman? What, Mr. Belvedere? Unfortunately, the Morehouse Award stipulates that the recipient hold a college degree And you don't? My formal education was limited to two revolting weeks in kindergarten Oh, you're not serious I am grim But good heavens, man, who taught you?  One year I beg your pardon But that's impossible You're six weeks late already, and you expect to complete a four-year course in one year? I intend, Dr. Gibbs, not expect But it's never been done before I've never been here before Mr. Belvedere, if you don't mind, I suggest we call on President Keating immediately Thank you Do you have a special case, Mr. Belvedere, or a very special case? It certainly is, President Keating And I am going to make an exception That is as it should be But Dr. Keating, he doesn't even hold a high school diploma Therefore, Dean Gibbs, you will arrange entrance examinations as soon as Mr. Belvedere is prepared for them Uh, would February be too soon? February? By February, I should be entering my sophomore year Your-your what? Dean Gibbs, I should be grateful if your staff examines me at the earliest possible moment Shall we say this afternoon? This afternoon? You heard him, Dean Gibbs, this afternoon Please, Mr. Belvedere, astonishing, simply astonishing Yes, aren't they? And his IQ, President Keating, the highest I've ever seen Naturally, I am a genius And that very fact compels me to suspect your motive, Mr. Belvedere, in joining us here Mr. Belvedere, this attempt of yours to complete four-year schooling in less than one Well, it could disguise an ulterior motive, you know A subterfuge is a strategy employed by idlers and parasites I have never been either Then you won't object if we stipulate a condition Which is? That if you should attempt to use this university for a-for a publicity stunt To exploit your novel or yourself If there is any notoriety or sensationalism during your stay here It shall become my unpleasant duty to expel you Condition accepted Allow me to welcome you officially to Clemens University Thank you, President Keating I'm not kidding, he's there in our room now An old guy, gee whiz, I thought maybe it was your father or something Come to visit you But what old guy? Who is he? I don't know, I was kind of scared to ask him He gives you such a funny look Well, we'll see about that right now Hey, what's going on here?   By Mr. Lux Lux Now who are you? Gentlemen, an exceedingly unkind fate has thrown us together You mean you're going to be our roommate?  That is correct, my nasal neophyte What class? I am a freshman A freshman?   It needs a manicure The coat of the campus, understand? Does the coat of the campus permit me to make a suggestion?   Oh boy, does it I can show you the scars Where's your dig? I beg your pardon Oh, he means this, Mr. Belvedere This little cap we gotta wear, see?  And if you don't, boy... You mean I am compelled to wear this obscene article? Oh, you'll get used to them after a while You and Whitaker will share a cleaning up this joint Making my bed for me and calling me for classes Any questions, Belvedere? Hey, where do you think you're going?  I've got you, Mr. Boo Baker And the possession revolts me Good day Hello Yes, young lady? Pardon me, but by any chance are you Lynn Belvedere, the author of Hummingbird Hills? I am the author of Hummingbird Hills But not by chance I've been looking everywhere for you I heard you were registered And I just had to see you I'm sorry, young lady I do not give autographs Oh, I don't want an autograph I'm Ellen Baker And I'm on the Daily Lion That's a college newspaper And I want to interview you About what? Well, what you think of college And how it feels to be a freshman at your age And, well, just about everything Miss Baker, since my arrival here Certain circumstances make it impossible For me to grant any interviews But it's vitally important to me Why, an interview with a celebrity like you Might give me my start as a writer I admire your ambition, Miss Baker But my answer is irrevocably no Now, would you be so kind as to tell me Where the Student Employment Bureau is located? Well, it's right across the street from the co-op But if you're... Thank you, Miss Baker This is the Student Employment Bureau, all right? But since the two of you came in pricey together Well, ladies first Hi, Ellen Hello, Bill Why, ladies first? Just common courtesy, the usual thing For your information, young man Woman has never been first In the entire tragic history of the human race Huh? It was not Adam who sprang from Eve's rib Nor did Mrs. Noah, Captain of the Ark Neither can the Distaff side Play Mr. Einstein, nor Mr. Tchaikovsky, nor Mr. Lincoln What about Madam Curie? Monsieur Curie's story has never been told Therefore, Miss Baker, you will kindly step aside Okay, Mr. What can I do for you? I am seeking part-time employment During the college year What's your name? Ben Belvedere And now, exactly, why do you need employment? In order that I won't starve to death Well, that's a pretty good reason What can you do?  Would you like to be a babysitter? I've been all through that I'm afraid that's all there is, Mr. Belvedere Except assistant hasher at the Tri-Gam House I don't recommend that to my worst enemy Tell me, what is a Tri-Gam House? Oh, that's a sorority The Gamma, Gamma, Gamma sorority Girls, Mr. Belvedere, lots of them They've got the best Norwegian cook in the world But outside of that, oh, brother And, uh, what are the functions of an assistant hasher? Oh, waiting on table, helping clean up the place You get three meals a day and fifty bucks a month Say, my mother's a house mother there So if you want the job, it's yours I accept the position I'm warning you, this is a slap-happiest Bunch of dames on the whole campus In that case, there will be some changes made Okay Here, just take this car to the Tri-Gam House and ask for my mother, Mrs. Chase She'll take care of you, thank you What can I do for you, Ellen? Oh, nothing special I was just showing Mr. Belvedere where the employment bureau was located It's obvious, Mr. Chase, the Miss Baker is slightly less than delighted to see you and is using me for a strategic withdrawal Good day He's quite a character, isn't he? So are you Now, why did you come here? Well, because a friend of mine needs a babysitter for afternoons Okay, what address? 41 Burnham Street Hey, that's where you live, isn't it?  Oh, sure, I know Between classes and all the work in the newspaper you're just having a minute to spare Why do you think I put you on the staff? Because being a good editor, you know I can write Sure, and your big blue eyes had nothing to do with it Well, what's your friend's name? The one with the baby Mrs. David Ashley Well, tell her we can't promise anything You know, people are beginning to find out that there are easier ways of making money than having junior vivisectom Don't you like children? Crazy about them Especially with their straight jackets on Oh, I'll tell her Thanks, Bill I am waiting to see a Mrs. Chase Well, just find a living room and spread out I'll tell her you're here Thank you Mrs. Chase! For an execution, you have been mutilating the entire composition Oh, I have Well, I suppose you can play better That is correct Allow me I beg your pardon Beethoven? No Belvedere Rubenstein plays like me Mrs. Chase, the house mother How do you do? May I say that this house which your mothering is on the brink of chaos Oh, isn't it just so? Mrs. Chase, I am Lin Belvedere Oh, but of course You must be the father of one of my girls In that unlikely event, madam I think you would recall my face Your son sent me here He gave me this card My son? You, assistant hair-shot Oh, but that's silly I am in need of substance, madam I chose this position Oh, you're just feeding me this Belvedere You're not really a student You don't really want to house here If you will outline my duties, yes Really? Oh, well, I feel it only fair to tell you the job offers very little opportunity With 20 undisciplined females in the house I shall make my own opportunity Oh, yes Well, if you'll just follow me I'll introduce you to our course Thank you Belvedere, Martha He's our new assistant hair-shot Martha is our fresher, Mr. Belvedere How do you do? May I get there? Talk, Martha In a day, they can snuck a norsk So, Zuck With merket, with merket Why, Mr. Belvedere, you speak no region I speak 11 tongues fluently including the Indian sign language Won't that be nice for Martha?  To him?  Unfortunately, yes And I regret to inform you that I... I have just resigned What? Mr.  One moment, please I recognize that Mr. Bubecker is inviting a proposal for compromise Very well, Mr. Bubecker During our working hours we shall observe an armed truce In the event of any aggression I shall retain the veto power over your trigamma destiny Agreed? Huh? Well, yeah, I guess so Splendid Fetch me a white jacket, Mr. Bubecker and hop to it Huh? Yes Tell me, Martha, come here What is, uh, what is for dessert this evening? Can pineapple Spare the can up on a, Martha The dessert will be my contribution You make?   Miss Norman Appreciation of good cuisine should be demonstrated without benefit of dialogue or sound effects Sorry, Mr. Belvedere Well, I, for one, don't need lessons and manners from a hasher Possibly not, Miss Ockentross But your appearance warrants comment Oh, such as? Since you ask I should advise you to make no claims but you cannot later prove Well, really? I'm referring to your eyelashes, Miss Ockentross Obviously artificial Oh, look, why, Bill? Young ladies, please, please We can only stay a minute, Mom I'd like to have you meet Ellen Baker Ellen, this is my mother Oh, how do you do my dear? Well, you must be new I haven't seen you before, have I? I guess not, Mrs. Chase You see, I transferred here from Stanford for my senior year Oh, your home is in California Just outside of Burlingame Burlingame Oh, of course! The Baker's a Burlingame Oh, I danced once with Medbury Baker Oh, of course, I was much younger then You see, my family's The Medbury Baker's, well, well, well Now you two must stay and have coffee with me I'm sorry, Mom, we've got to blow But you will have dinner with us, Miss Baker next week, maybe Oh, thanks, I'd love to Oh, splendid, well, good night, Miss Baker Bill, what's this Medbury Baker business about? Don't mind my mother She's got bruises from jumping to conclusion Oh, that was Ellen Medbury Baker from Burlingame Oh, wonderful family Very distinguished You know, you girls ought to rush her Oh, I'm so sorry, Mr. Belvedere You're about to say something Yes, I too have a word for the young ladies Now then, as we conclude our first meal I wish to comment on my observations Miss Atkins, Miss Smith, Miss Harris Yes, yes You have dined tonight with shirt-tails outhanging Sloppiness is definitely per se even at Wellesley Miss Willis, the Johnson twins Yes You were several minutes late Henceforth, hours for meals will be rigidly enforced as follows Breakfast, 7 to 8 a.m. Lunch, 12 to 1 p.m. Dinner, 7 to 8 p.m. One second late, no admittance We shall now synchronize our watches Are you ready? It is now precisely 8.02 Check Check Thank you Good night, young ladies Why can't I come up?  But when do I see you again? Do you want to? I wasn't very good company Under my guidance, you'll improve Tomorrow night, 7 Okay, Bill, tomorrow night And just be sure your friend gets someone else to hold hands with their little monster Yes, I'll tell her, Bill Good night We'll bring you act two And now, here's our Hollywood reporter Libby Collins with news about the stars You know, Barbara Stanmick amazes me Such a straightforward person in real life But what a ruthless character on the screen It takes an actress of Barbara's caliber to play the high tension role she has in her new picture, Thelma Jordan What a thriller, how Wallace has just turned out for Paramount Or perhaps I should say, Chiller Thelma Jordan certainly made my blood run cold Well, that's what top-notch melodrama should do, Libby And does when it's played by experts like Barbara and her co-star Wendell Corey Oh, yes, Wendell certainly gives a great performance as a courier man ruined by a scheming woman And Barbara, you know, what zest and vitality she brings to every picture she makes Great deal of glamour, too Yes, John With her dark, smooth beauty Barbara Stanmick is glamour in person One of her greatest charms, of course, is her creamy complexion A lovely luxe complexion Everyone knows that Barbara's been a luxe girl for years Yes, indeed She's really devoted to luxe toilet soap And for all over luxe loveliness she's delighted with a new bath size cake This fine new product of Lever Brothers Company has made a hit in Hollywood That's because it's luxurious enough to please Hollywood's loveliest stars That generous new cake makes a perfect beauty bath Gives you lots of creamy lather and leaves a lovely clinging fragrance on the skin The luxe soap perfume is blended by experts It's made of costly ingredients brought from all parts of the world It always reminds me of a springtime bouquet No wonder screen stars Lovely women everywhere are enthusiastic about the new bath size luxe toilet soap The whole family will enjoy this generous satin smooth cake Get the bath size luxe toilet soap tomorrow Remember, this is the fragrant white soap 9 out of 10 screen stars recommend Now, our producer, Mr. William Keeling Act II of Mr. Belvedere goes to college starring Clifton Webb as Mr. Belvedere Robert Stack as Bill and Colleen Gray as Ellen Well, several days have gone by and Mr. Belvedere has adapted himself to life in Clemens College Or perhaps it should be stated that Clemens College has adapted itself to life with Mr. Belvedere That is up till now for Mr. Belvedere has received an urgent message to report to the office of Dean Gibbs I have been waiting for you, Mr. Belvedere, for almost an hour Then let's not dally, Dr. Gibbs Mr. Belvedere, have you seen this? Today's issue of the Daily Lion I gave that alleged newspaper the casual glance it deserves nothing more You have openly violated your agreement President Keeling That is not true I did not say those things for publication Famous author debunks college traditions Thinks, dinks, stink Female students concentrate on nothing but men Athletes are subsidized Mr. Belvedere My pithy observations, Dean Gibbs were recorded by Mr. Baker without my consent or knowledge Without your consent? Definitely Therefore, I intend to bring suit for libel not only against this aspiring young lady but against the university Well, now, Mr. Belvedere, let's not lose our heads We are securely seated, sir But surely there must be a more sensible way of remedying There is Miss Baker and the editors of this absurd publication must be severely reprimanded But we can't do that Why not? But this is a liberal university The faculty can't tell students what to write There'd be a revolt In that event, I shall relieve the faculty of this burden and take the matters into my own hands Good afternoon But, but, Mr. Belvedere Yes Oh, good afternoon I would like to see... I'm sorry, but Mrs. Ashley isn't home Mrs. Ashley But I'm calling on Miss Ellen Baker Oh, that's her maiden name How do you do, little boy? Was Mrs. Ashley expecting you? Oh, yes Yes, she's expecting me Well, I'm just the babysitter I don't know whether I should...  I should be delighted Don't point that thing, little boy Firearms are not for children Put it down And a good boy for Mrs. Hall? Just as good as gold, Mrs. Ashley With a little trainee you can make a very fine gangster out of him Mr. Belvedere, what are you doing here? Nothing half so fascinating as what you're doing, Miss Baker He said you were expecting him It's all right, Mrs. Hall Just take Davy to his room, will you? Come along, honey Goodbye, Daddy Daddy?  Isn't it equally presumptuous of you to write an article about me without my consent? Just because I was enterprising enough to pick up information about you What you wrote was not information it was gossip and a no less bad taste than if I were to write about your private Peccadillo's Don't you dare call Davy a Peccadillo His father and I... I am not the seat of judgment, Miss Baker I am here merely to warn you that your future flights into journalism must not be taken at the expense of my name and reputation Mr. Belvedere, the truth is well, I've simply got to write about you again in detail And you expect me to consent? You must consent It means everything to me and Davy When I first got the idea to write an article about you for the college paper I saw possibilities way beyond that So you wrote to several national periodicals This reply from Look Magazine is most interesting It mentions the sum of... $500 You looked at that telegram on my desk Naturally Why, you're an unethical eavesdropper Yes, I am Let me write it I'll write the best story you ever saw Please, Mr. Belvedere, it's the start of a career for me And the definite end of one for me Consent denied All right, I'll do it anyway And you can't stop me You're a public figure and I... I don't need your permission Miss Baker, I shouldn't if I were you The least you could do is to give me a little time to explain what this means to me Miss Baker, I am still a freshman at Clemens University As such, I am compelled to attend the sophomore freshman track meet at four o'clock Good day There is now time 42 pence for the sophomores 32 pence for the freshmen Next and final event, the court of law Gee, Mr. Belvedere, how can you just sit here and read a book? Didn't you hear what he said? The score's all time I must ask you again, Cornelius, not to interrupt me Furthermore, the month of November is an extremely unlikely time for young men to go fitting about in union suits In any event, Cornelius... Yes? Get lost Now on the field We're voting for the sophomores Avery, Brooklaker Look at him, Mr. Belvedere That's him, that's Avery out there Catching another cold, no doubt We're making those 12 feet 3 inches for the sophomores No, no, we're dead, Mr. Belvedere We're cooked Kindly stop jiggling You don't understand why Galloway can't come near 12 feet Who is Galloway? He's our entry, the freshman entry in the pole vault Gee, Mr. Belvedere, how can you be so calm and peaceful when these two dinks are in the balance? I beg your pardon Holy smoke, don't you know? If we lose this pole vault to the sophomores we've lost the meat and we're stuck with these dinks till next June And if we win? Well, we get rid of our dinks right now Cornelius, into each life some rain must fall Mr. Brooklaker is about to get drenched Hey, where are you going? Mr. Belvedere, hey! Now voting for the freshman Al Galloway in his third and final jump the bar remains at 12 feet 3 They hand everything with a substitute entry for the freshman replacing Galloway in his... his... Win, Belvedere! I don't get this, Mr. Belvedere You mean to say you're going to jump without even changing your clothes or for anything? I shall roll up my trousers Young man, at what height did Mr. Brooklaker clear the bar? For all three Well, that's a new high for him Can't you tell the officials to set the bar at 14 feet? 14 feet? Okay, Mr. Belvedere Hiya, Mr. Belvedere Good afternoon, Mr. Brooklaker You know, there are easier ways of committing suicide Guy, you're right You'll break your back, throw it up and your legs coming down Gangway, please Thank you Do you realize it was just four inches off the record set in 1922 by a guy named... by a guy named... Now, wait a minute It's right here in the record book by a guy named... Lynn Belvedere That is correct Here, have a dink Thanks for such a wonderful evening, Bill I don't know when I've had such a nice time I don't know when I did either Ellen, can't we... Can't we just sit here for a while? You sound much too serious, Bill About you? I'm very serious And there's something I better tell you, Bill Oh, no, not here in the car You'd better come upstairs with me Yeah, but when I called for you you met me down here You said the paint on the floor hadn't dried Well, I'm sure it's dry by now Let's go up and find...  Oh, hello, Mrs. Ashley Stayed the asleep? Oh, yes He's been fine Here's your money Thanks again for coming Anytime, Mrs. Ashley Good night Oh, hello How do you do? All right Are you the one I'm supposed to meet? I hardly think so Good night Here Hey Hey, what is this? Remember, Mrs. Ashley the one who needed the babysitter? Say, he's kind of cute I think so But then, all mothers are prejudiced Mothers? Living room before he wakes up Helen, I... I had no idea you were... He's mine, Bill And here Here's a picture of his father Air Corps, huh? 20th Air Force Bomber Group He was killed two weeks before the Japanese surrendered That's awful tough It makes a difference, doesn't it? I know But why have you kept it such a secret? I've just tried to keep Davy separate from my college life That's why I came here At the last school, it was no secret and, well, it took too many explanations Like... like now, huh? I just thought you ought to know Oh, he's a swell kid, Helen Bill, let's be honest The fact that I'm a widow with a baby it's just too much to take, isn't it? You just sort of floored me, that's all Look, I... I'd better run along I still have some studying to do See you in class tomorrow, huh? Sure See you in class tomorrow Good night, Bill Oh, take these groceries over to the cashier, Mr. Bubecker Charge them to the Trigam house I'll go to the meat department and pick up the turkey Yes, Mr. Belvedere And please stop sniffling Gee whiz, Mr. Belvedere Ever since you became a sophomore you've been picking on me Miss will all see me back atel, Mr. Bubecker when next week I become a junior Gosh, how fast things can change a fellow's life Oh, now wait a minute If you're looking for your old man, well...  For Pete's eggs, Ellen Is that yours? Yes, that's mine Come on, baby Mr. Belvedere Hey, Mr. Belvedere Ellen Baker, see her? She's just gone out of the store I have eyes, Mr. Bubecker Yeah, but she's got a kid Ellen Baker's got a kid That's him with her See no evil, Mr. Bubecker Yeah, but she... but... Yes, sir, Mr. Belvedere Sit down Ellen, I... I've wanted to talk to you for... well, for days You don't have to explain, Belle I understand No, I don't think you do Belle, you don't have to go through all this You're doing it because... Well, because you're nice and you feel you ought to You're never more wrong I don't blame you I told you before I'm a widow and I have a child I know how you feel Yeah, maybe you're right Maybe that was the way I felt You see, you came at me kind of fast the other night Well, it's taken me until now to get up enough gumption to face the competition Davey and... and your husband Belle, I loved my husband He was a wonderful person I married him on leave I guess we wrote more words and letters than we ever got a chance to say to each other in person He was killed before Davey was born You don't have to tell me all this But I do I'm proud I married him, Belle I'm sorry he didn't get to see his son but... but there's no competition Alan, I love you Don't you see, I want to build a home Perfect timing That'll be my mother Your mother? Hello? Oh, hello, Mrs. Chase Fine, thank you She wants you to have dinner at the Trigambos Dinner? Tonight? I'd love to Seven, yes, I'll be there, Mrs. Chase Thank you I'll drop by after dinner and we'll give her the big nose, huh? You were pretty sure of yourself, weren't you, Chum? No, ma'am I was pretty sure of you Another day off, Mr. Belle, the dear And so am I Oh, that turkey I declare I've never tasted turkey like that before I've never heard of you like that before This is Chase Yes, Avery Mrs. Chase, don't you have to be a single girl to be a member of a sorority? I mean, you can't have a family of belong, can you? Well, of course not Then how come they're all Russian Ellen Baker? Having her here for dinner and everything Why, she's even got a little boy She's what? The dishes, Mr. Boo Baker A little boy Mrs. Chase, there's no cause for alarms and excursions Many women have a son, yourself included It requires no particular talent But she said nothing about it to me Neither did Bill But if there's a child there must be a husband Not necessarily Miss Baker is a relict Relict means widow, madam That's what she says Speak no evil, Mr. Boo Baker What Mrs. Ashley says or does is no concern of yours, those dishes are Well, it's a grave concern to me Did you say Mrs. Ashley? Yes, Ellen Baker Ashley And she's no relation to the Ashley's of Newport, madam Oh, excuse me I'd better join the girls Who would think I should have been told, Miss Baker After all, I am Bill's mother I'm sorry, Mrs. Chase Just that Bill asked me not to say anything until he gets here Naturally he wanted to be present when we told you about our engagement Engagement? Well, yes Isn't that what you have said about?   But that was before I met the little... Oh, you're being very, very unfair Something told me not to get involved with a man who has a mother Everybody has a mother You can't help it Not when she listens to people like Mr. Belvedere Well, this'll fix him When I'm through with this article What article? Bill, get out, please I want to finish it and mail it to Look Magazine tonight If you can't do that he'll be expelled and you'll be expelled I simply won't argue with a man who's emotionally upset I am emotionally upset Holy smoke You women don't make sense You don't think straight You don't even... Oh, gosh, honey What are we fighting about? I told you before Ask your mother and ask Mr. Belvedere All right, I will Good night Mr. Belvedere Who does that guy think he is, Mr. Belvedere? Talking to you like that Yeah, the nerve Now, you cut over this door and knock The door is unlocked, Mr. Chase I ought to let you have it I wouldn't wave your fists at me, Mr. Chase I think it only fair to mention that during my Japanese period I taught judo at Tokyo University Who told you to go sticking your suit in other people's business?   The fact that you have failed to reconcile the two points of view to your advantage is your problem, Mr. Chase Not mine Indeed, I view the whole matter with complete indifference I don't want to hear any more of you It doesn't matter so much anyway because you won't be around here much longer And what do you mean by that? Just wait Wait until Ellen drops her bombshell on you Tonight Gee, what a crisis What's he talking about anyway? Ellen's going to drop a bombshell Here? Tonight? Not here, Mr. Boo Baker In the mailbox I fear Mr. Belvedere, where are you going? There's no time to lose But you can't go out That's your pajamas You feel kindly hammy My top coat You'll catch your death a cold Apparently Cornelius You have never read Admiral Byrd's story I am the only member of the expedition who didn't Mr. Belvedere You can't go around the streets running around like that It's eleven o'clock at night in Pajabarito week Isn't it till April? I have no time in this emergency to take cognizance of false modesty But where are you going? I am calling a Miss Ellen Baker Good night, gentlemen We pause now for station identification This is CBS, the Columbia Broadcasting System In a few moments we'll bring you the third act of Mr. Belvedere goes to college Our guest tonight is Miss Helene Stanley A brand new starlet at 20th Century Fox I can see Helene why you passed your screen test so easily Red hair and a lovely luxe complexion And that's a winning combination Thank you very much, Mr. Cuey But of course the screen test is only the beginning I'm so grateful for the acting experience I've already had You specialized in singing and dancing roles, haven't you? Yes And that's why I spent so much time on the set of Dancing in the Dark It's a behind-the-scenes story of studio life With William Powell being his debonair self as a famous actor Isn't he wonderful? And Mark Stevens is a romantic lead Yes, Dancing in the Dark has a happy experience altogether Betsy Drake is a most engaging young songstress Yes And isn't she a joy to look at? And it's easy to see she's a luxe girl Indeed, she is, Mr. Kennedy Betsy Drake has one of the loveliest complexions I've ever seen And I know she depends on luxe-filled facials to keep it that way Like other Hollywood stars, she finds it's a beauty care that works You know, actually three out of four complexions became softer, smoother, in a short time with luxe-soaked care Recent tests by skin specialists proved it It's such an easy, effective care I know I wouldn't be without it Thanks, Miss Elaine Stanley I'm sure lovely women everywhere agree that luxe-soaked gives delicate skin gentle, protecting care it needs If you haven't tried it, why not begin your luxe-soaked facials tomorrow? Remember, luxe-doilet soap is the fragrant white beauty soap 9 out of 10 famous screen stars use Here's our producer, Mr. William Keeling The curtain rises on the third act of Mr. Belvedere Goes to College starring Clifton Webb as Mr. Belvedere Colleen Gray as Ellen and Robert Stack as Belle 30 minutes ago, Mr. Belvedere left a dormitory at Clemens College and hastened to Ellen Baker's apartment Now, there'd be nothing very unusual about that were it not for the fact that it's late at night and Mr. Belvedere's attire consists of pajamas, bedroom slippers, and a top coat Obviously, Mr. Belvedere's very anxious to see Ellen but Ellen hasn't the slightest desire to see him She's refused to open the door whereupon the very determined Mr. Belvedere has commenced an ascent up the fire escape All right, brother, now start climbing down that fire escape I beg your pardon We just happen to be police officers, Mr. So get down here and start explaining As you wish, gentlemen, but I assure you this is a mistake Yeah, and you made it Look at him, Al, in pajamas, yes Stick out your mitts, brother, and no false moves Stop calling me brother I can conceive of no circumstance in which you and I could be remotely related Come on, let's get him out of here No, but you can't do this to me I'm a student at the university Get him, Al, a student How long have you been going to school, Jack, 20 years? There's a young lady in this apartment house who knows me very well Yeah, and I suppose you was calling on her, huh? Exactly In pajamas? Okay, wise guy, what's her name? Ellen Baker, that is Mrs. David Ashley And if you don't believe me, why don't you ask her? Third floor, apartment D Well? Let's take them up, Al If this lady don't know him this could develop into a very interesting case Okay, college boy, start moving Maybe a lady, but we found this mother in a fire escape He said he had to see you How about it, mister, you know this guy? Know him? Well, Miss Baker, kindly identify me We may have had our differences but I know I may rely on your innate sense of fair play Officers, I never saw this man before in my life That does it, Jack Boy, are you under arrest May I inquire him for charge? Peeping Tom Peeping Tom Good night, officers and thank you very much Peeping Tom, huh? Okay, what's your name? John J. Doe Okay, Mr. Doe We'll just dump you in the drunk tank and refresh your memory Take the handcuffs off him, Al But that will not be necessary Here you are Hey, you didn't lock the handcuffs Of course I locked them, the guys are Houdini I talked, Mr. Houdini Yes, Sergeant, sure, sure Sergeant, you will long remember this dank, turdent night to your regret You sure this guy ain't top heavy? You discover that I'm no more sane and much more sane than you are to wit I know that you have the legal right to hold me for 48 hours I also know that I have the right to make one telephone call Yeah, who do you think's running this joint? You are, sir, and I suggest you enjoy it while you may You don't scare me, Pop All right, there's the phone booth Make your legal call Operator, this is Lynn Belvedere I want to call Washington, D.C. Person to person and reverse the charges Mr. J. Edgar Hoover Okay, Sergeant, did you hear him? J.  Not yet, and don't give us any more of that stuff We call the local FBI, see? Nobody ever heard of you They shall In the meantime, there's some people here to see you Show them in, please Outside, this tank ain't no parlor, mister That is quite apparent Adieu, classmates Shalom, chum And thanks for showing us how to pit the lock Pit? You showed them what? You'll find out, Sergeant You'll find out He is Mr. Brubaker There's Mr. Belvedere You okay, Mr. Belvedere? I was the one who brought Mrs. Chase and everyone, Mr. Belvedere In time, I shall determine whether to thank you or not Cornelius Well, Mr. Belvedere, this here young lady has explained everything About no one knew that is Good evening, Ellen Good evening So we'll call it all a mistake, Mr. Belvedere And drop the whole thing Okay? On the contrary I shall fight my arrest through to the highest authority And I demand a hearing and now Gee, another crisis But she dropped the charges Miss Baker, why did you drop the charge? Because I couldn't sleep That was your conscience I slept perfectly Yeah, he sleeps upside down I just can't stand here, Sergeant And swear I've never seen him before Because I have seen him before But I hope I never see him again And that goes for one or two other people here too Well, if you don't listen to me, Ellen, I could No, Mr. Belvedere, I wish you could do something to bring them together Ellen won't speak to Bill And Bill won't speak to me Oh, please What is in that envelope, young lady? The article I wrote about you for Luft Magazine Why haven't you mailed it?   I'm just tired Oh, Ellen Unguard, unguard, Mr. Chase One does not reason with an emotional young woman I'm not emotional All I want to do is Graduate from college and keep Davy And have a home and... Yes Sorry Thank you Look, would you party's mind continue In this outside my police station? Hello Yep Yep Huh? Yeah, he's right here It's for you, Mr. Belvedere From Washington Thank you Hello Hello, Edgar Yes, yes, there was some trouble But I've taken care of it myself Oh, no, no, I don't think it'll be necessary Oh, and you too, well Well, thanks for calling, Edgar Goodbye Any questions, Sergeant? Oh, no, sir No questions, sir Would you like a squad car to drive you home, maybe? Thank you, thank you But I shall walk home to the dormitory with Cornelius Gee whiz, J. Edgar Hoover Oh, thanks, Mr. Belvedere I'll enjoy the walk very much Good night, everyone Come along, Cornelius Come again, Mr. Belvedere Instructors are quite simple Cornelius But you will kindly repeat them Oh, sure, Mr. Belvedere I take this envelope that Miss Baker gave you To the all night drug store And I buy some stamps and I mail it Gee whiz, Mr. Belvedere You think I was dumb or something? Far from it, Cornelius But, well, there's one thing I don't get I thought all this was because You didn't want the magazine to print it Never mind that, Cornelius And if you know what's good for you Remember that in a few short weeks I shall be a senior Oh, I won't tell anybody, Mr. Belvedere Gee, not even J. Edgar Hoover After in the 75th commencement exercises Of Clemens University The presentation of the Diploma to a man Who has singularly distinguished himself In the outside world As well as in our own academic world Well, they finally got around you, Mr. Belvedere The most boring ceremony I've held them Is fortunate to witness Since they gave me the Moore House Award Well, I wouldn't trade my Diploma for any Well, as a valedictorian The only man in the long history of Clemens To have earned his degree in one year Mr. Lynn Belvedere Mr. Belvedere, congratulations You are not only a great scholar But a man of principle And I want to thank you for keeping your bargain Bargain, President Keating? About the publicity and notoriety, I mean Oh, not at all, President Keating And now it gives me great pleasure To hand you your Diploma Thank you, Dean Gibbs And it gives me great pleasure To present you with this But Mr. Belvedere A copy of Look Magazine The cover! Look what it says Mr. Belvedere goes to college By Ellen Baker Ashley I kept my word, sir Remember, you just graduated me And a picture of us Here, on the stage Ending you your Diploma Why, Mr. Belvedere This just happened This is impossible Yes, yes it is We certainly don't need any cheerleaders To let our stars know how much we like Mr. Belvedere goes to college And now it's curtain call time For Clifton Webb, Colleen Gray And Robert Stagg Clifton, as Mr. Belvedere You've certainly done it again Yes, I find it most depressing Depressing? Depressing to be famous? Well, there should be a certain dash to success Now, after some 30 years in the theatre I find it depressing To achieve notoriety as a babysitter In a pole, Walter Oh, you don't like this fame, madam I love it You know, I'm sure the audience wants to know About the future, Mr. Belvedere Well, Mr. Belvedere is never predictable Only one thing is certain about his future It'll never be dull He always has something new Just like luck soap I've used luck soap for years But as a complexion care And now they've brought out the new bath size Don't you think the new bath size Of luck soap is grand, Mr. Webb? My dear, don't be naive Who do you think invented the new bath size? You mean it was... It was Mr. Belvedere? That is correct I'm sure Mr. Belvedere already knows But you might tell the rest of us About next week's play, Bill Well, next week's play is tuneful It's amusing, it's romantic And as for the stars Three of your favorites Robert Cummings Anne Blythe And William Bendix The play is a gay musical story For the whole family The universal international picture I'll be yours That's a very entertaining prospect, Bill Good night Good night Good night and come again


This week in Cambodia we've got the train the trainer components taking place in relation to the EU ASEAN migration border programme funded by the European Union and what's that looking to do is train a variety of border officials and law enforcement colleagues from 10 ASEAN states and once they've completed this training importantly they can go back to country and start educating the rest of their border officials in the use of a variety of interpol border security and policing capabilities.


And we're going to talk about how do we fly the discus? It's so, so critical. It's something you need to learn to do. And it makes a massive difference on your throwing performance super fast. So we're going to go through a couple of simple tips. We're going to show you how to make sure that you're carrying the discus right, especially in the fingers so that you can generate more velocity, more rotations per second. And the faster that happens or the more that happens, the more you can get benefit from higher rim weight discs. And you're going to be able to spin the discus, which is going to keep it in the air and you're going to throw farther. And if you can't fly that discus right, it's costing you distance. So at any rate, let's take it out. We're going to go through it. All right. So for today's YouTube video, what we're going to do is kind of get a little more up close and personal, and I'm going to show you some different things on how we are going to be holding that discus. So now one of the things that we do is when we hold that, and you're going to notice when I'm going to show you this, notice where the fingertips are. So the tendency is to basically get the fingertips to gripped over. So you're going to see a couple of things. And again, a lot of people talk about how do you grip the discus and whatnot? And I think they're all pretty much accurate. But the one thing that we're going to talk about is really where the discus placement goes, it doesn't go gripped over. And this is one of the mistakes I see. So we'll teach people to go two fingers together. And then what they'll do is they'll get the pinkies kind of here. So what that does is that tends to create this kind of pulling effect instead of a clean finish where it's going to come off of the release finger, the index finger is the one we want. We don't want that finger. So here's what we're going to focus on. We've got to get that nice spin. And so what we're going to do is, again, we got to be in the fingertips, not in the knuckle joints, and we certainly don't want the pinkies over. This is what I tend to see a lot of throwers doing. So again, one of the things we're going to do is we want to make sure we're doing this. So as we do this, we want to make sure that we're going to be learning how to tilt the thumb. And we're going to notice how that we get the edge of the fingers here up on the disc here. This is where we're seeing more and more kids do this. They're getting that finger, they're getting into the joint. And so when you get the fingers kind of here, you might have a good finger position, but you're going to be when they come to release, you're going to be more prone to kidding. Having the discus come off of those fingers as well. It kind of comes off of here and it's this is too much. And so then you get that big wobble at the discus wobbles. It's not spinning like super efficiently. And so that means you can't fly right. You see discus is doing this, the fluttering throw. Jason Harrell, when he started with me coming out of college, he had some definite aerodynamic issues with his disc. And that was a very early on focus for us was to get his training dialed in for that. So one of the things we want to make sure we're doing again, as we look at and we're we're discussing where we're holding the ring, we want to see this, we really want those two fingers together because this teaches you and forces you to get this finger to come off the index finger. When you're like this, it can be prone to be this, but here's the trick. You got to make sure that you don't have the thumb here. The thumb has to be here. So when you're looking at a thrower and they have the hand, they have to have the hand here and the fingers together. And that pretty much ensures that it's going to be coming off of the tip of the discus this way. Now, you'll notice when we get too much here, or we have the finger spread apart and we're in the knuckles. That's when we get that inconsistency. And one of the things that you're going to be doing is you're not allowing that discus to sit optimally with centripetal force when you're winding. So when we're here and we're winding the discus and we're having that discus come out and around, the discus is pushing against the fingertips. And that's why when we have this hand turned like this and it's the discus is pushing against this, it's going to be more prone to be coming off of this finger and not so much with the pinky. What we're going to discuss are two big mistakes often made by beginning discus throwers that are simple, easy to avoid, and that you can change quickly. The common mistake, one of the things that I see quite a bit are too much motion is the first thing. And the second thing is getting too deep in the discus. In the shot, I think it's better. You can get a little lower. So one of the things that we find that young discus stores tend to do is they tend to get too squatty. And so what that means is they're trying to come around and they're trying to come around super deep. And remember, one of the key things that we want to see with discus stores, discus stores will have some flex in the leg. And so when you see them wind and they hit their pillar one and they're coming to pillar two, they're tall because they're taller, they can drop in on pillar three. You see the drop in and apply speed.  And if you do that, that's going to affect the orbit high point of the implement. It's going to have an impact on your ability to create speed because you're just kind of rotating around and stepping. So a real simple fix for a lot of you young throwers is to stop sitting. And if I'm throwing in this direction is to stop sitting like this and then winding and then and then turning around super low. Now there's some could argue that being in that low position is going to really help how to maintain balance and different things, but it's also not going to be really helping you, the athlete to understand the motion of that pillar two and that pillar three motion to move out around. If you haven't looked at it, check out our Holy Grail video where we talk about how to get around the left. And when you are too deep in the position here, it's it's harder for most throwers to actually move around the entry side axis. So that's going to be your first tip. And the simple way to avoid that is to get out of this deep drop and bring the athlete up so that you can see the hips dropping. You'll see the knees in front. And so we're going to be able to see that longer, wider action. So again, it looks like this when we're here, we're going to see this. And we're going to be able to see that longer, wider kind of sweeping motion because we can move from pillar two to three and drop in. But when you see the athlete, they're coming here and they're too far around, it's makes that rotational path much more challenging. They're going to tend to be coming around and they're going to get the back in. And that's going to bring us to the second drill. One of the things that we want to see is when we're talking about one of the common mistakes is what once we get here, then we get to rotational and to watch the knee roll. Now we posted up a video quite some time ago about sweep and the path of the, of the sweep leg in the throw of either the rotational throw, the discus or the shot. So one of the things we want to do is if we're staying down lower, it's also easier or when you squat too low, it's really common to get this type of motion. So the knees moving around and the foot is facing down. This is a really big killer because what it does is it makes the athlete too rotational and then they tend to back in. That's going to make the foot kind of drop down into the throw. So how do we increase that wide sweep? Here's how we're going to do it. So once we, we create everything a little taller, one of the things we're going to do is we're going to be thinking about leading with the more of the inside of the knee. Now, some people say lead with the inside of the thigh. I tend not to coach that motion because I think that tends to lead to this type of a sweep motion. My tip is to lead with the knee and get your toe up. So if we look at a lot of throwers, you're going to see that that foot, once they come out, that big wide sweep, you're going to see more of this. And then you're going to see that toe kind of come in slightly up as they come around into the middle. And one of the other mistakes that occurs when beginning throwers are dropping too low is the narrow sweep. Discus throwers specifically, when we're a little taller and we're staying wider, okay? So when the knees are apart and we stay tall and we shift from pillar one to two, when we're taller and we're moving our center of mass over and in prepping to drop into our pillar three, what we're going to be seeing is that if we're already low, it's very difficult when we're low to get a wide sweep, right? So you can see that if I'm in this position and I stay real low to really get a wide sweep is going to feel very unnatural and extremely difficult to do. That's why you don't see it done with any elite level thrower. There are one or two guys that were a touch lower. A vast majority of elite world-class stores for the last several decades are all start with a slightly taller position and come around. So one of the things we want to again, suggest for our young throwers is one in the previous where we talked about stop squatting so low because number two, then we're going to start, we're assuming we fixed that. And what we're going to be talking about is that when we're coming around and we're staying taller, we want to think a couple of paths. Some people talk about leading with the inside of the thigh. Some people try to have people reach out here. That's not the sweep leg action. If you look at the best throwers in the world, let's look at Malachowski. Let's look at Harding. Let's look at Dockers. Let's look at Guzdias. Even Guzdias who has a narrower sweep, you're going to see that's different. They don't have an extending reaching sweep leg. Now one of the other simple fixes for helping that knee roll over and creating a wider sweep is to be conscious of keeping the shoulders more level. And that by default starts to help counterbalance this when the shoulders are tilting, you know, you're going to see more of this type of stuff. Keep your shoulders level, think inside of the knee and toe up. And that's going to help lead into that longer, wider sweeping motion. So hey, thanks so much for watching. If you like this, be sure to hit that subscribe button, throw any comments below, and I will see you in the next video. Be sure to check out our next videos. Be sure to subscribe. Visit our website for free videos. Click the links below. We have links to our free mini course. Check out our websites for camps and different detailed information. Throw farther faster by understanding the science with the throwing chain reaction system. Thanks so much for watching.