Hello, hello. This is Debbie Dashinger and welcome to Dear to Dream. It is my joy and my pleasure as always to be here with you and thanks for being a part of this journey. Remember to subscribe to like to comment to send this show to somebody you know needs to hear this. And I do read all your comments today on the show. I finally have a guest who people have been asking me about. I've actually known him for years and years, and we started out doing stuff together like this. But here he is again, and he's still built some incredible career. Today's show is going to feature Emmanuel Dagger, whose core work method is a quantum healing technology and we're going to be talking about divine alchemy and a quantum leap in healing. This show Dear to Dream with Debbie Dashinger won the coalition for visionary resources award for best radio and podcast show is listed in Welp magazine is one of the top 20 best podcasts to listen to. It's listed as a top self improvement podcast on Apple podcast has been nominated for two people's choice podcast awards and a webby award. This show is sponsored by Dr. Dane here and access consciousness. They do energy work out into the world and if you'd like to find out more about the classes or become a facilitator, join them at Dr. Dane here. I'm Debbie Dashinger, and I teach spiritual messengers how to be visible at a time when you came to be visible. I'm a book writing coach. So I show you not only how to write and finish your book, but how to make it highly engaging. I'm an independent company that takes your book to a guaranteed international best selling status, and I do all the heavy lifting for you. And finally, I show spiritual entrepreneurs how to be interviewed on radio and podcast and get massive results. And if you'd like to learn how to do any of these pieces, they're all ongoing. I've got a gift for you. Got to Debbie dashinger.com slash gift, and get your templates and get your how to videos so you can become visible massively right now. It's d e b b i d a c h i n g e r dot com slash gift. Nest is a manual dagger. He's a transformational specialist holistic health practitioner and a teacher who's co created positive shifts for thousands of people worldwide. Having gone through unfathomable challenges and loss during his early turbulent years in the Middle East and having been a refugee of war led him to parapsychology holistic and alternative healing gifts. He also developed the core work method. It's a quantum healing technology and manuals also an accomplished musician, sound healing facilitator with an extensive library of energetically and vibrationally infused musical arrangements that contain unique elements proven to shift emotional, mental, physical and spiritual blocks that impede one's capacity to experience a fulfilling balance and optimal life. Emanuel has had the honor of presenting at the United Nations, the World Congress and other national events and summits that promote peace, love and healing. And if you would like to learn more, find out at his name, Emanuel dagger dot com and it's d a g h e r dot com. And with that, I welcome Emanuel to the dear to dream show. So good to have. Oh my gosh Debbie thank you so much for that and it's so good for this reunion I'm so happy we're back together in this way. Reunited and it feels so good.  You know, you are spectacular and I meet met you 1215 years ago, and you were such a young powerful pop right old old soul so young, and doing exquisite work back then I love seeing the trajectory of all you've created. And I'm amazed at this part about the music. Can we start there with the musician piece. Tell us about that. Thank you so much well it's so synchronistic that you say that because I'm so excited to be sharing my next chapter of my musical journey in the next few weeks so you know wherever my website is everyone can check it out. But for me, healing really started with music. I remember when I lived in the war, when things were really challenging and hard. We had one VHS tape, and that was the sound of music. You know when she comes out at the beginning with the mountains and you hear the air and and the wind and you just kind of really immerse yourself in those beautiful almost orchestrated sounds. It never left me. It's always been with me so I wanted to create things that would be very epic and orchestral and cinematic but also have healing components to them. So I started getting into the sound healing piece but it's been an amazing journey. It's one of the most fulfilling, fulfilling parts of doing this work because for me, I think I am a musician first and like a healer, you know therapist second but it's it really fills me. What do you play what I play the piano. And then of course you know you can basically do so many different sounds with that because if you have the motif, you know they come with different cards that you can use to do different sounds. So a lot of the music I create. Actually, we had a lot of we hired a lot of live orchestras so there was a lot of, you know, a lot of a lot of it was digital but a lot of it was live and then we combined the two to use some of those healing tones like so phageo binaural beats and all the fun stuff and then really created something amazing. That's amazing. That is amazing. I love that I am I also rediscovered music in my life I've been a singer my entire life since I was a little baby. And yeah I used to play guitar and I used to be an excellent violinist and all that now I'm just okay a guitar, but I play jambi drum and I'm in a band and we do sound healings and very spontaneous. I don't know, very spontaneous channeling it feels like, but it's it is also my first language, I feel. So I understand that and I'll have to scurry over there to listen to some of that if you've got samples. And if you ever need backup singers. Yeah. Oh happy happy jazz hands you're in. Yes, we're always looking to collaborate actually. So thank you. I'll remember that because that would be beautiful. I think the healing aspect one thing I found and let me know how you feel about this. But I notice what it doesn't matter what my voice sounds like how pretty how whatever what matters is the love that fills the room and everybody responds to that that's where the healing really starts how the room is held. Yeah, it's really about the feeling, rather than the perfection, or the so called perfection. Yeah.   So, having seen so much turbulence and suffering and we're still seeing a lot of that happen I mean, we recently saw what's happening with the earthquakes and stuff like that. That's part of the world. It really awakened something in me I remember. I don't know exactly how old I was my mom says I was five, but there was an experience where she was at work. She was a lab technician at the time at a hospital. And I was at the house with a babysitter. The first step that came in after that. And during that time there was an invasion that happened in our village. And so there's bonds and folks what country you're talking about Lebanon, Lebanon. Yes. So during that time, you know there was a lot of uncertainty and instability but up till then, I had not really experienced because prior to that I lived in a convent, and there was some safety there because they didn't really go behind those walls and do things but then we moved because there was a little bit of a time where it was a little bit better.  I can't describe it other than like slow motion and 2020 vision at the same time it's just so interesting, but I remember when that happened. The first emotion that I reached for was fear.  So that actually went on for about a week, and my mom didn't come home. So I remember being in my room and just in the closet and just praying or not knowing what I was praying to but just affirming to the universe or whoever whatever that energy was that if my mom was able to survive.  And I remember just saying if she was safe if everything was going to be okay I would spend the rest of my life doing something I'm like five I guess that would help people that would make them feel better that would make them feel happy. You know that's sort of the brain at that time happy right like you don't know empowered and inspired at that time you just know simple words so I, I knew I like making people happy. You know, a few days later, my mom came home and during the cease fire and it was just that day I made made a decision, I said, universe God. I'm going to be the best person that I can be for myself and for others. And that's the path I want to take because I do know a lot of people. A lot of my friends took the complete opposite path because they saw a lot of hardship they saw a lot of pain and suffering. They turned to doing things that were maybe not kind and loving just to kind of be seen and heard and acknowledged. But something inside of me just said nope, you want to go this path and then we came to the States when I was 11. And again I have an amazing mother who was so supportive and loving for me and towards me, but at around 1112. We realized that I had scoliosis. I had psoriasis I had stuttering issues I had had so many things right PTSD. And we definitely saw a lot of Western medicine and doctors and things like that. But she also allowed me to see a lot of Eastern medicine and and healers and and acupuncturists and yoga and meditation and things like that so I definitely gravitated towards that because it was less invasive. It was more gentle, and that's sort of like my, my energy if you know me I'm more of a gentle kind of energy so it resonated with me. And that's sort of combining all of that with some of the challenges and the lessons that I learned went to school background and psychology, and you know a lot of spiritual holistic nutrition and, and different things combining it and then we came to the core work method, and that's what I do now which is so so rewarding for me. What an amazing story. Do you ever today have any withhold from that time period is there are there things that come up complications because of what you experienced. Goodness. No, it took a long time, a really long time to get here I think probably about five years ago, a turning point happened because I do see myself as the getting guinea pig right like I'm always the reference point doing all the work on myself first always always always to make sure that it's working and helping people. And so, and I have a dear friend a best friend who I taught this process and then we do it together and it's just kind of basically an everyday thing and we still do it it's part of our self realization kind of expansion process. So, about five years ago I'd say the nightmares and a lot of the you know night sweats and feeling like always looking the other shoulder like there was a lot of stuff that I had to and I didn't even realize some of it was happening still in my 20s and early 30s, because you know, sometimes we have blind spots so this work has really helped me look at all those blind spots and we still have blind spots obviously where I was growing, but when it comes to the initial trauma and the war and all that. I can really think about it and not get emotional and cry like although there's nothing wrong with that but I feel very neutral about it because it almost feels like I feel so far removed from it. Oh, amazing. That's beautiful. I'm happy for you. I really am. Yeah, because that's a lot to have the past living in the present and all the effects of the past I understand that. And so that makes me curious what is this core method. How does this create such substantial healing. So, thank you for that question. And one more thing before I answer that is I anyone listening right now. You know it might not have been like a war, the way that maybe I experienced but everyone has been through challenges everyone's been through struggles and there's no more or less it's all the same because we are sensitive energetic beings and, you know, we've been through our story but one thing that I wanted to share is that because of what I went through. It always makes me root for the underdog, and it always makes me feel connected to people that are marginalized and people who are always not seen and heard like those are the first people that I go towards and, and do my best to make them feel seen, loved and recognized because I know what it's like to have. Yes, I had an amazing mom but you know there was a lot of time where we were not physically together so I know what it was like to be abused and mistreated so I just know that I hear you and I see you and so does that you know we hear you we see you, and I just wanted to. That was important to share. So, the core work. One of the three principles is, we start with does the mind feel seen heard recognized honored by you. Does the body feel seen heard recognized honored by you, and does your spirit feel seen heard and acknowledged by you so those are like the the foundations we can call it a checklist. And if you are focusing on getting physically better, but you're not focusing on taking care of your mental and spiritual self, you're still going to have an imbalance and vice versa if you're only focused on personal spiritual but you're not in this world you're kind of like in another place we you know sometimes that happens, because we want to escape some some of the struggles we're having. That's going to create an imbalance as well so the key is balance, and the way we do that is my mind feeling seen heard acknowledged loved by me is my body feeling the same and is my spirit. And then the next question that I usually ask is, what would life look like, or what would it feel like if you became the most loving, most compassionate, most safe, soft landing of a presence to yourself. The way that I see it I see it as a grandmother energy or like a wise oak tree I'm super into nature so sitting under a beautiful oak tree does that for me where you feel that grounded, peaceful wise elder energy. What if there's a part of you that is already that. And what if we can because obviously if you're watching and listening to these types of things you are doing that for a lot of other people. But what if you can do that for yourself. The core work teaches you how to do that for yourself by checking off those three things we talked about. There's a process we can do that as well today, where you can just make sure that all of you is feeling seen heard and nourished and loved by you because if your mind doesn't feel seen heard and acknowledged by you and we know a lot of people in the New Age communities and even in religious communities, they're always vilifying the mind and they're trying to make it like it's evil bad ego you know we hear all these things. And what happens is, when the mind feels unsafe in your presence, it's going to do everything that it can to protect itself from you. And if your body doesn't feel safe in your presence, it's going to do everything that it can to protect itself from you. So, all that's asked of us is to gently refine our perspective, move it. It's almost like a dial, like sundial just move it in a different direction, so that all the love that you were taught, or the, the, you know how to take care of others and how to make them feel better, just gently, you know, turning that dial a little bit so that you can feel equally that kind of love for yourself in such a way so that your mind can start to feel safe in your presence, and want to work with you instead of fight against you, so that your body will start to work with you instead of fight against you, or protect itself from you so that is my passion. And it's, you know, it can happen in so many ways, it's not just the core work people can do it through meditation they can do it through music. It's a nice peaceful walk. But what I found is really speaking, you know, my, my psychologist mind, the kind of scientific mind has to also be acknowledged it's not all about rainbows and butterflies and that's great it's wonderful, but it's also important to use specific processes that can help the mind organize and understand and comprehend that healing is possible, and it can happen for you, and it can be outside of time and space and it's like whoa, oh my gosh, I was able to heal from PTSD. I was able to heal from scoliosis I was able to heal from skin issues and not being able to speak I mean the 1112 year old version of myself would have never believed that I'm going to be speaking for a living and I'm sure that you have a story about that too. It's just crazy so miracles can happen. And the way that they can happen is for you to simply shift that dial and allow all of you, all aspects of you all the parts of you mind body spirit to feel seen in such a way that they will start to work with you instead of against you. Wow. That sounds amazing. And so I want to take you up on that offer to do a process so we can experience exactly what you're saying I mean on one hand I'd like to give people some relief for wherever they are right now and the other hand, it sounds pretty yummy. So if yeah if you'd be willing to gift us with that that would be beautiful. Absolutely. So the first thing I want to invite everyone to do is just close your eyes. Take a deep breath and if you want to place your right hand over your heart just feeling that heart hand connection just feeling connection between your hand and heart and as you exhale just feel yourself relaxing into the chair, or wherever you're sitting now if you're driving please stay present and alert. You can do this later. But if you are able to relax go ahead and close your eyes and take a deep breath in. And as you exhale just feel yourself. Sinking more deeply into the chair, the bed the couch wherever you're sitting on the floor. Just let yourself fully be supported by that object. Take another deep breath in and release. So the first thing that I'm going to invite you to just think about before we actually do the healing process. I invite you to think about the fact that everything exists in relation to one another. Meaning we are all one everything exists because so for example, the chair, or whatever you're sitting on and you right now have a relationship.   You know a lot of times in spirituality you hear the concept of oneness, but it can really go over our heads if we haven't simplified it and for me one of the things that is very important is to take really hard and challenging steps and make them very simple to understand. And for me when I understood the principle of oneness simply to be that it just means that everything has a relationship with one another, whether that relationship is expensive or it's not expensive. Well, that's besides the point right now, but everything exists in relationship to something. So, right now I want you to think about the chair or the couch or the bed wherever you're sitting and just express acknowledgement through gratitude. We are so grateful for this chair, we are so grateful. And when you are grateful, because the thing is that chair has been serving you way more than you've probably been aware of the fact that you're serving it. And how many things in our lives, whether it's food that we eat the bowl that's carrying the food that we're eating. How many things in our lives do we have relationships with that there's a little bit of an imbalance there, because we're not acknowledging it and acknowledgement happens through gratitude. So let's express deep gratitude right now to the chair to the couch to the bed wherever you're sitting for lifting you up for supporting you for taking good care of you. Let's just sit with that for a moment. What if there's a part of you, capital Y, that is spirit that is source that is creator that is all knowing all encompassing, and that part of you is here right now. There's also a part of you that has forgotten itself, and a lot of that has just been through learn behavior. Things have been passed down traditions, ancestors, and then there's a part of you that is physically the manifestation of all of that, the divine source creator universal self, and then the part of you that has forgotten. And it's in this physical body. So I want you to think about your mind right now. And I want you simply to acknowledge that you have a relationship with your mind.  And if you don't, you can always contemplate and connect with that part of you more can do that on another time but I want you to acknowledge that although you have a spirit, you also have a relationship with this beautiful thing called your mind. And so this mind has been trying to keep you safe and protected. The best way it has known how through conditioning through studying learning. And as you do the inner work you realize that doesn't have to be so survival based it can actually be very empowering and transformative. So I want you to thank your mind. Just thank it. For all the ways that it tried to protect you whether it was through fear, whether it was through frustration, whether it was through anxiety, whether whatever it was worry. We're not judging we're not trying to get rid of any of that, because that's how your mind has been operating for a long time. But also the mind operates through joy and peace and there's a lot of things that it can actually tap into as well that it has been able to. Maybe it's been a while. So let's just express deep gratitude for all of it. We're not judging good or bad. We're simply acknowledging that your mind exists and it has always tried to keep itself safe. Let's do that for a moment. Let's express deep gratitude. Take a deep breath in. So now we're going to ask the mind if there's anything that it is concerned about. If there's something going on it could be, you know, you might have a bill that you have to pay and it's been really challenging or you might have been diagnosed with some physical dis ease that you're worried about. Whatever it is, I just want you to ask your mind you capital Y you the conscious loving observer self, the spirit self, you're going to ask your mind. If there's anything that it is concerned about there's anything going on that you can support it with and just see what comes up for you. I'm going to give you a moment to do that. So it could be anything could be finances, relationships, anything. Once you get clear on what the mind's discomfort is as far as the experience. You are going to honor the mind by asking it how does it feel about this whole experience because it's really about the feeling. What is the feeling underneath that experience that it's concerned about? It could be worry, it could be frustration, anger, hesitation, whatever it is. Let that come up right now.  And it may actually create excuses and resistance at first because it's not comfortable. Maybe it hasn't known what it's like to be supported unconditionally by this beautiful presence that has always been here. And that's okay. If those thoughts and concerns and the resistance and the armor come up, thank them and just come back and ask how do you feel about that initial discomfort, that experience? How do you feel about it? So now once you get clear on the feeling or the emotion, whichever one feels good to you, your body is always speaking. And your body is going to tell you when you're uncomfortable, it's going to tell you by feeling it in a specific part of your body. So for me, for many years and sometimes it still comes up, the anxiety or some of the frustration that I feel is often felt in my solar plexus, in my stomach area, just a little bit above the belly. So for you, it could be your shoulders, it could be the temples of the head, it could be your jaw, your lower back, your hands, wherever that is for you. When you think about that experience that was causing you some challenges, where do you hold that in your body? See, as a society we are taught to numb and look for the next thing and now we're seeing it more. Although we love social media and things like that because it can bring us all together, it also is all about running on a hamster wheel and what's next, what's next, and it's to make it so that we don't actually feel what's causing us discomfort because the mind doesn't like that. The mind wants to feel safe. That's the number one goal of your mind and when you become a warm, loving, soft landing of a presence for your mind to be able to do that, it's not going to resort to the fight or flight patterns of keeping you safe. It's not going to relax and soften because now something else, your divine self, your goddess, God's self is stepping in to support it, even though it's always been doing that, it just wasn't aware of that. So let's take a deep breath in and see and feel into where you're holding the discomfort. So again, for me, when I feel anything that's causing me discomfort, it's usually in my stomach. So I'm going to place my hands there right now and I'm just going to allow that discomfort to exist. I'm not going to push it down. I'm not going to ignore it. Yes, my mind will say, oh, maybe what am I going to eat for dinner tonight or what am I going to do tomorrow? Thank you, mind. I know you're just trying to protect me. Thank you. And just come back to that tightness, whatever that tightness, that discomfort, that pain, whatever it is in your body. Let's acknowledge it because your body is using that simply to ask for your love and your attention. When your body feels fully loved and seen and heard and supported by you, it will not have this feeling of discomfort. Because right now, there's room for us to show up more for our body when we think about the emotional things that were causing us stress and anxiety. So let's just sit with that for a bit. This is you simply loving yourself. This is you acknowledging yourself, your body and your mind. And so now what will happen is if you are someone who's been doing the work for a long time, you will start feeling a release of softening because when a certain part of the body feels acknowledged and then the mind also feels acknowledged. This firm grip that has been happening, trying to get our attention to do this right now, which is to show up for ourselves, will just relax and soften. And you can liken it to feeling peace. Some people feel warmth. Some people feel a release. They feel lighter. This is your body and mind's way of letting you know that they have been acknowledged. So if that doesn't happen in the time constraints that we have today, that's okay. I want you to sit with these processes so you can go back and listen and watch where you first ask your mind if there's anything going on, if there's anything causing it discomfort. See how it feels about that? Where are you holding it in your body? And you just sit with that for as long as you need. So when I first used to start doing this, sometimes it would take me about 45 minutes to an hour just to have that release. Now it's maybe 30 seconds to a minute. But the key is consistency. The more you check in with yourself every day and you make this a top priority, you're checking in on your mind. How are you doing? It's like a good friend. How are you doing? Is there anything that I can do to support you? Same thing with your body. How's it going? Is there anything that is feeling a little bit off? Let's sit with that. And through acknowledgement, you're going to have a release. You're going to have a softening occur. It's almost like this firm grip softens and then light starts coming out from that. And then it even opens up. And then there's like either sunlight or I see it as a beautiful flower that has been there the whole time that is radiating light. And you can see it however you want. But just know that the more you practice that, the more of that release you will have. So let's just keep focusing on any lingering discomfort. Let's sit with that for a moment. And from here, if you have even the slightest softening occur or a release, express deep gratitude to your body for playing the perfect part in this healing today. And then after you do that, you can also do the same for your mind. Express deep gratitude. Yes, we have maybe decades of things to still resolve. But in this moment, you created space. You created an opening for healing to happen. And that's all that healing is, is coming home to yourself in such a way that you create this space for healing to happen. So what will, you know, it might not even feel like it has anything to do with it. It could be a call that you get tomorrow from a friend and you hear something differently and you're like, Oh, I should have thought of that. Let me go to this place and get this thing that's going to help me do this. So it's all connected. And when we acknowledge all aspects of ourself and gratitude is the best way to acknowledge not just the body and mind, but your spirit self. When we went back to that first step, the pre preceding the first step, which was acknowledging that everything exists in relationship to one another. So the fact that your body and mind exists couldn't happen if your spirit didn't exist. So then you start seeing the oneness and to your spirit. This is its love language, right? It's just this oneness, this peace, this connection, this communion. And that's what it wants for your body and your mind to feel in their own time. Because your spirit is always in that space. It's just now we're going to work with your spirit intentionally to show your body and your mind, this healing and these possibilities that can happen for this expansion. So that was a quick little process. I just want you to take a deep breath in real quick and just give yourself a big hug and just know that you did such a great job, no matter how much you felt or a little you felt. The most important thing is that you showed up for yourself by trying it. And if you didn't feel anything today, even just slightly more space, more peace, then come back and revisit it and do this process often. And eventually you will start to feel that peace, that ease, that grace, that is your natural inherent self. That is who you are underneath the fear, the worry, the stress. All that is just learned behavior. Your true self is not that. Your true self is peace, is love, is freedom, is unity. That's who you are. And we're just bringing you home to yourself. So thank you so much. I get a little loopy when I do that. I can see why it's incredibly relaxing and reconnecting. That was superb. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for allowing me to do that today. Yes, I know everybody received a lot. And you know, to your point about opening yourself up, there's something to be said about widening back. It is in the widening back instead of the attachment or whatever's going on, that things can come in information guidance and all that. A couple of months ago, I was talking to a friend and she was telling me just a personal story about her daughter. I had something and I knew in my belly, I need to know this person she was referring to. And I ended up working with them and they opened up tons of things, very, very, very positive.  She's in New York. And I saw a Chinese doctor and, you know, he gave me some of those herbs to drink and he gave me a treatment, cleared it up. And just I knew when she said that, and I don't get this much, by the way, I usually just will listen to someone's story. But there was like a, that feels like an answer. I was going to go to Chinatown here in LA. I went to Conscious Life Expo where I was working and there was a Chinese doctor who had a booth and it was beautiful. He gave me a treatment. He gave me things to take home. Things are clearing up that quickly in a couple of days. So there's a lot of truth to that. I'm a living example. I'm sure you have tons of stories and people out there have tons of stories about when you just are able to be in the state you put us in. That's when the miracles can happen. Yes, and it's always been inside of them, right?  You're just kind of like Debbie said, just creating the space to see it and pay attention to it. And the wisdom, the insights, the revolutions, they will come naturally. It's just miraculous. I love it. This is my favorite thing. Yeah. I understand that you do energy forecasts. So inquiring minds would like to know what is the energy forecast for now or going forward? So here's the thing. I think it's all about perspective. I think everyone has their own unique perspective and they bring so much beauty as part of the one. My perspective is always to uplift and inspire and to remind people just like this healing work of the divinity that they are so they can come back to that and really fully embrace that. So that's the way that's kind of like the language that these are always written. Because I do get asked, you know, why is it always so positive? Why does it, you know, things are really hard and stuff, but look, we know things are really hard. We know there's a lot of challenges happening, but there's a lot of good happening. And the way that I want to word it for you is that when the light just expands and grows, sometimes the contrast to light also needs to come to the surface to be seen and acknowledged in such a way that the light can just like a warm embrace love it in such a way that that some people call it shadow, you know, the humanity shadow, whatever it is, can actually become the light. Because without the light, you know, the shadow actually, it is the light, it's just a facet of the light, and we don't want to vilify it. And that's what a lot of people did with the mind, the ego, and it's going to keep us on a hamster wheel of struggle. So through gentle massaging, you know, energetic massaging, I tried to write these in a way that can help people remember that it's not all doom and gloom. It's really the fact that there's so much chaos happening, there's so much changes happening, whether it's in technology, whether it's in humanity, the evolution and, and the earth. There's light that is bringing all of this to the surface in such a way that now we can love those parts of ourselves that we've neglected, and we've been maybe not kind to and loving to, and then allow it all to turn into the light because it is the light. So the thing is, when you have somebody who is maybe not behaving in a classroom, and they are talking back to the teacher, and they're being giving her an attitude or him an attitude. It's because they need to be acknowledged, they need something they need, they need to be seen, heard, loved, and maybe they don't know how to receive that because their living environment didn't support that. So the key is for us to do it for ourself first, that's why the core work for me is so important because, and I do it every day like it's, it's the first thing that I do, first I do gratitude and then I do that, because if I'm not showing up for myself completely from this space, the elder grandmother energy that I that I tap into it could be whatever for you. How can I do that for other people, completely. So imagine if you make that just your daily work is to show up for yourself and love yourself and be there for yourself and not be hard on yourself when let's say you drop a glass of water and so I know so many of us get frustrated when that happens but just practicing that will add the light in such a way to the healing of humanity that others will start to do that for themselves and others and it'll start to create a ripple effect so that the world that we know is coming, the world that we know is it's here can happen and fully integrate much more quickly. And I know you know that that I'm, there's like a lot of words in between words, I'm trying to say most loving and gentle way. That's beautiful.  If you don't mind sharing. That's so cool, nobody's ever asked me that so thank you. I actually have one was with a friend. And it was very interesting, because it was in Los Angeles we were driving on the 405 if anyone knows the 405. We were going from the airport towards the valley so we were like, going into. And we were looking up and we saw a green kind of spiral and then it kind of just disappeared I thought okay maybe it's a satellite or some type of thing and even my friend Mike was like yeah that's so interesting because there was no debris is nothing it just kind of like was this green sparkle energy did like a few turns and then just dissolve. And then next day we found out that Dr Wayne Dyer had transitioned. Well, it was interesting. The only reason why I say that is because the timing of what was happening what we saw, and what we heard his transition time was was so and I've never met him I just felt it was too synchronistic, and he had transitioned at that same exact time. He had, you know, and that was very interesting so that was one. And I do sometimes see kind of like it's never this way it's kind of like the peripherals I see more and you know pink and blue and sparks and things like that. And I've seen one other time. I was in Santa Monica in California, and I was looking out at the ocean and I just, you know, two or three going straight down thought was that a shooting star. So you know the mind always like, Oh, no, it can't be, but I do believe at some point. It exists and I'm sure it happened. And I know that there's a lot of people who experienced them so I say yeah maybe I have. Yeah, that's cool. And do you want more would you be interested in conscious communication with another being benevolent. I will make that clear benevolent being. Yeah, you know, here's the work that I have so committed to doing. I just said that I want it to be very non personality based meaning it's coming straight from the source of everything it's the stream of everything. But that has evolved in the sense that if we are all experiences of the whole, as long as the being or the energy that is, we are in communion is acknowledging the oneness. I'm good with that. It's beautiful oneness. If it's, you know, maybe not coming from that space. I'm like no thanks I'm good. That's a great explanation. I love that. I hope people listening can create a little bit of those who have felt any concern. Because it is coming. I mean, it is it's been here for forever since ancient times and I've, I feel strongly that they were some of the first populations here, but and that we are very much seeds of that we're not just human We are aliens. We are galactic beings. So, that's a really beautiful point of view, to understand, just like here on earth it doesn't matter what you look like, or what your sexual familial gender anything choices are, none of it matters. You know, it's just truly what you said it is the oneness is like what are you serving, and if you're serving the light, and it can be a beautiful connection. just to add one little thing to that is that little piece in the beginning where we talked about relating to everything, having a relationship with everything. Even, you know, I like, in the beginning I started with things that don't have personalities, like people, because sometimes people have challenging personalities, right? So, but your chair, your, the bowl that you eat your food from or the plate or the glass you drink from, they don't talk back and they don't have, you know, attitudes and so for some people, and for me, I was one of them, it was easier to begin there with just things because then I could recognize I have this relationship with this thing. And when I'm grateful, oh my gosh, you start to connect and all of a sudden one day you start to be in traffic and you're driving and someone cuts you off and all that.  All is good. Next. And then, and it's like this oneness that just happens. It may not happen right away, but with intention daily, you just start to live in the oneness.  And there was a lot of fear that they put in like, be afraid of God, be afraid of this sinning, whatever. And that was a thing that I had to unwind from. But when I started to practice oneness and create this understanding that we're all in a relationship with each other, I even now appreciate Catholicism. I appreciate every religion because it's all part of the one. There's no good or bad, there's no right or wrong. Yes, some of them become called some don't. But the good news is you don't have to participate in any of that. You can just be that loving presence because we're already having a relationship with it all anyway. Do we want it to be contentious or do we want it to be nice, loving, respectful? And that's what I choose. Yeah, I love that. And you know, I have this thing and I don't know why I came up with it, but it helps me so much. I live in Los Angeles. So I made a decision a long time ago, anytime somebody was zigzagging and cutting off or, you know, just doing this really like aggressive trying to get ahead, I decided there was a woman in the car about to have a baby. And then so I don't back off in blessings, you know, like, go, go, go, get to go and get there safely. I love that. I'm going to use that one. You're having a baby. Have a good baby. We need another indigo child. That's a good one. Yeah. What is your stance on, for you, on psychedelics or plant medicine? Do you use them? Do you believe in them? Not for you? I am all for them. I respect it. Again, because it's part of the natural elements, I believe that it has its place. And if it's done in a way that is, you know, someone knows what they're doing, right? But I haven't taken anything personally. I feel like we all all roads lead to the same place. So I think if you do them through plant medicine and psychedelics, that's beautiful. And I have a lot of friends who do. And then if you do it just through mindfulness and the core work or meditation or healing or just going for a walk, you can also do it that way. I feel like it's all, I'm again, gentle is the word for me. So as long as, you know, I'm slow and steady and taking it easy, that's what works for me. But some people need it to be very extreme and fast. And that's perfect. It's perfect. It's just not me. Got it. Interesting. Yeah, cool. How about you? I want to know about your perspective of that. Yeah, my perspective is for me, energy. Thank you for asking. Yeah, I'm 100% energy. I feel like I don't know anything, right? Or I think I know a lot. So originally I was, when I first heard about plant medicine and somebody invited me to go do that, I was like, God, that's crazy. I would never, who would sit there for four days or a week or anyway, I didn't say that to their face, but I was like, that's nuts. Out. And then, you know, the universe laughed because months later, they say that ayahuasca for instance of the many things you could drink is grandmother, right? Grandmother energy and grandmother absolutely tapped me and said, it's time. And I was beside myself, like that was a huge 360. So I surrendered. And the moment I surrendered, everything came to me. Because of my podcast, I connected with a very, very reputable place in Costa Rica. They invited me to actually do something reciprocal in order to bring me. And then they also brought my boyfriend at the same time. And he did a little bit of work for them. I just really opened up and it was profound, really profound experience. And I will say, and I've done it about 25 times, ayahuasca, yahee, huachuma and all very, very different. I today feel satisfied. I've also done mushrooms like quite a bit. I still have an affinity for mushrooms. The ayahuasca has some right now is like, I'm good, although I've met some beautiful shamans recently that it's like, if I was ever to do this again, that feels like that could be profound. So I'm open, but I let my spirit or whatever that energy is that informs me to tell me what to do. But what's very interesting about that is in 2019, I had such a big experience where the divine was telling me things about myself that were gorgeous and utterly confusing. It felt like that that is not me. And they wouldn't let up. So when they want to make a point, they are gentle, very gentle and loving, but they were very clear. And so I finally surrendered last November. And I am now taking a six month shaman practitioner program. And so I don't know where it's going. I don't know what I'm going to do with it. Maybe it'll be a part of this or how I help my clients. But I just follow energy, right? Oh, I could see, I just got retreats for you big ones. What does that mean? I don't know just doing retreats, leading them, hosting them. Yeah, God, well, that's synchronistic. And I'll just say this before we get back to you. That's so beautiful. Thank you for that. That beautiful God hit. Oh, it's already done. Yeah. Because I've wanted to do this. I wanted to do it with our music so much, so much to step into the healer. And I just had to know where I got an email from somebody I don't even know who says I found you. And I want to know if you want to do retreats because I can help you get there. And I'm like, how is that possible? Yes. Then here you are the next day. Yes, Hercules. Thank you so much. We are all one. Yes.  So this is an off question, but I'm going to go here because you help people. I know you help people from celebrities on. I know you've shared the stages with some of our biggest luminaries. And I feel because of the level of healer you are, you could help people. So I know a couple and they're a beautiful couple. They're beautiful together. There's so much I could say about how they are and what they've created and who they be together. And yet there is a place in their life that is this terrible impasse. He said, she said they can't seem to communicate. And I love these people and I want so much to see them succeed and they want to succeed. And they're so sad right now. And it's not a good conversation because nobody's really listening.  And it's just this really one place, but how they lack of communicate and argue destroys them and the actual incident that seems to continue without needs getting met. And that's so anyway, what would you do with something like that? Yeah. So I would work with them first individually and we would see some of the habits that they're partaking in that are leading to some of the fight or flight or maybe the shutting down reaction. So once we get clear on that, we start to love and honor and kind of like rebuild those parts of themselves that are feeling not heard or feeling like they need to be in the fight or flight or they feel so we would do that. And then once both of them have sort of gotten to a place where they can actually listen and be neutral, then we would bring them back together so that they can see if their path would continue. And the thing about this work is, although I'm rooting, right, you and I, we root for those and to stay together and be sometimes it's not meant to be in that way. And that's okay. But if they have and they're willing to have like a resolution, that's the most important thing is, are they willing? Then they are, then we would do the work on each individual and then bring them together. But it's about being willing. I agree. It seems to me that you have to make a choice. Like, I love, I'm committed, no exits. Like, let's make this happen. You know, and then you care so much about the other person, you're not going to give things up in yourself, but to find a way so you can get your needs met and you're happy. I can get my needs met wherever there can be that crossover. I think it's, it's huge. Yeah, beautiful. And you have this very spiritual approach to prosperity. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we talked about that before, I think. What is your approach for spiritual folks out there that they can create financial wealth? So it's so interesting because I never realized how full circle it was. But when we were talking about relationships, we were talking about relationships with the chair and the oxygen and the, you know, all that. And money is a living, breathing energy. It's not just this lifeless thing because there's this energy and this energy is the, the embodiment of circulation, giving, receiving, and that thing always changes, right? Sometimes it's NFTs. Sometimes it's crypto. Sometimes who knows what's, what it's going to be next. Money. Sometimes it's gold. And the, the most important thing is it's not about that object itself. It's about what it represents. And when you start to do that, you give it humanity and you give it understanding and love and compassion. That was the big breakthrough for me. I actually wrote a book about it. Easy Breezy Prosperity in 2016, I believe, which really humanizes this thing that we have sometimes not knowingly abused, you know, a lot of people in the spiritual community vilify money. They vilify having, you know, finance, financial stability and success because these old indoctrined behaviors from religion, from, and beliefs from religion and just ideology that made us believe that they are separate. But if everything is one and you are one with, you know, you're having a relationship with a chair, you're having a relationship with your friends, your family, you're also having a relationship with money. And how can we heal your relationship with money, not see money as bad and all, all that, but how can we shift your approach the way that we're shifting it towards your mind and your body and your spirit. Now we're speaking the language of, oh, wait a minute, money is a blessing. It's a gift. It's an extension of me. It's no longer separate. Now what would life look like if you lived your life from that space, you're open, or you're going to be more open to opportunities that you weren't seeing now, or you're going to be more open to listening to your intuition to tell you what maybe you thought you needed. Now you actually can give it to yourself. So ultimately, it's about humanizing our relationship with money and not seeing it as a lifeless object, but seeing it as a living, breathing energy that wants to serve, it wants to help you. And when you're abusing it, it's going to run the other direction. But if you actually make peace with it and love it and honor it and some of those trigger points within you that feel cringy towards it, then you're going to start healing and inviting it back in. Can you give an example? Like it can be from your life or a client's life, but some way that they weren't creating with money and that was an obstacle and what they did, how they spoke to it or got into a relation with it that created a change. Oh, yeah. I mean, so many clients, this is one thing that we do in our, with my mentoring and coaching work, but I always like to use myself as the reference because, you know, I know myself the best. So for me, it was kind of letting go because I initially came to California to be a music artist. I wanted to be in more mainstream like pop artists and all that. And I was in the business, I had a deal, like we were, you know, everything was, was going in a good direction. But I was noticing that there was a big imbalance with what I was receiving from the business, as opposed to what I was giving, because I was like literally giving everything and doing everything and sleeping in my car, like doing all this stuff to make it happen. And it was what I was seeing was a lot of, you know, gossip and backstabbing and people doing things and not so much towards me, but just seeing what people do to each other and to get ahead. And it just wasn't feeling an alignment at the time. This was like circa 2003 to 78. And, and I know it's changed a lot now, but it's definitely at that time it was still the business, the music business had, it was an industry that had a hold on the artist. Now you have TikTok, you have all these things that you can really break through. Anyway, I decided to hang that up and continue on with my studies and I'm grateful that I did. But I realized that a lot of that imbalance with giving receiving was because I experienced great poverty in my early childhood. So I remember sleeping in the convent on the cement floor in the basement with my mom for years, with one little thin blanket and we'd eat bread. I mean, it's not that good of a situation right now financially over there in Lebanon, but it was definitely a challenging time. So there was these, these experiences that made me believe that that's what it had to be. But there's another side of me, I call this my rising Sagittarius. I have a rising Sag and I'm a moon in Sag. So lots of kind of keep going kind of defiant against authority. So balance is the tourists very well. And they, I realized that there could be more. I just didn't know how, but I, I just kind of surrendered and put my book, you know, my nose to the books, study, learned, practiced. I didn't even worry, even just the practice that I do and the healing work that I'm so grateful to do. I didn't go into it thinking even it to be like a huge successful business. I just wanted to help people. And when I stood in that and I also did my inner work of balancing my giving and receiving, the prosperity just started coming in. And I even wrote a book about it and, and just clients and word of mouth and then opportunities and speaking at the United Nations and doing this and doing that. Like it just happened. And you know, it's so funny because I always wanted a mentor. I always wanted somebody to do that for me, open doors and help me and all that. And I've never really had that specific thing happen. So I realized early on, I needed to do that for myself. And the way I do that for myself is to do the healing work around the imbalances that were going on, whether it's poverty, whether it's relationships, whatever, to be open, to be a vessel and ready for opportunities when they come because opportunities always come. You just have to be so clear and present to see if that opportunity is for you or not. And that's what has expanded the prosperity and hopefully it'll keep expanding. Beautiful. So we can all work on our relationships with money and anything for that matter that we want to expand and prosper. Yeah, but always start with yourself. That's the most important thing. When you make showing up for your mind and your body and your spirit, the number one priority, the money will just come. It'll just become natural. Well, Emmanuel, this is Dare to Dream. What are you next, Dare to Dream? What are your future dreams and goals? Oh my God. First of all, thank you for this beautiful conversation. I love your questions. They're amazing. I love your energy and your presence. I feel like definitely kindred spirit vibes with you. And thank you for just all that you do and you share and you offer to the world. So I'm just sending you so much love. And I also want to send love to the listeners. I have so much love and respect for anyone just on the path to knowing themselves more and being willing to try different things and think outside of the box. So I want to commend you for that. My next dream or some of the next dreams are to finish the next book, which is very close to finishing. It is going to be the work, the core workbook, which I'm excited about. So probably any year or two. And just continuing to show up for myself in such a way that I can show up for others even more. Like those are the two things right now that I'm really excited and dreaming about. Awesome. And I know with all the work you do that you've got something for the listeners, for the viewers. And what is that URL and what is that gift? Yes. So we have, they can either get it from Emmanuel dagger.com. So that's just my name E-M-E-N-E-L dagger D-A-G-H-E-R.com. On the homepage, they will receive three audio healing meditations. One of them is about really transcending worry. I can't remember the other two right now off the top of my head, but there's a package for them. It's about three hours of sessions for them. And if they would, they're not able to get it from that page, they can go to expand.emmanueldagger.com backslash or forward slash gifts. So expand.emmanueldagger.com forward slash gifts. Great. And I'm going to put that also in the show notes. So folks who want to go, you can just click on the link. It will be there for you. So you can, I'm sorry, folks who are interested, this will be in the show notes. So I'll have the link there. You can click there and get the very generous three hours of healing modalities. So you can engage more with Emmanuel and also with your spirit to heal anything you want to say here at the end of Emmanuel. I'm just so grateful. As you know, and we don't have to go into details, it was a journey to get here today. And we did it. And I'm so grateful and I actually feel so good and happy and healthy. So thank you. Yes, right on. That's so beautiful, folks.  We're always supported and loved and seen. I end today's show with this quote from Michael Altschuler. The bad news is time flies. The good news is you're the pilot. Thank you so much for joining us today on Dear to Dream. Subscribe to this number one transformation conversation, Dear to Dream with Debbie Daschlinger. Leave a comment. Please share it. And next week on the show, I am featuring the amazing Sheldon Eeps, author of the new book, My Own Directions. I just have to say I grew up because I was originally an actress and a singer for the majority of my life before 15 years ago. I went into this podcasting coaching and all of that. And so he's a hero. So that his publicist reached out to me in such a big deal because he's huge on the Broadway scene. Sheldon is one of the all time most influential African American theater leaders as well as a prolific director of television. He's directed on Broadway, the West End, and is the director of the upcoming B.E.T. Plus movie, Christmas Party Rashes. So please join us for that. And again, so many of you came up to me this weekend at Conscious Life Expo and expressed how much you loved the podcast. And that's how you even got to the Expo and how you found some of the guests. Be sure to comment. So I know you're out there. I do read them all and I do engage. Thank you so much. Use the healing techniques that are beautiful Emmanuel shared with us today. So you can be that little pebble that's actually the huge ripples out into the world of healing. You're here for great purpose. Remember to dare to dream. Create all your dreams into your reality.


Today Having having already reviewed the dialogue and discussion between Socrates and Gorgias we move on to The dialogue between Socrates and Polis and on Friday We'll discuss the interaction with Calakles and then when Socrates is Frustrated and creates a dialogue with himself So first of all about Polis So notice that in this section we have an interruption of the discussion between play between Socrates and Gorgias so that conversation breaks down and Polis interrupts and This is an actual guy that we know something about Polis. He's from Sicily from Acrigus and And he's said to be younger than Socrates But he's old enough to have composed a treatise on rhetoric that Socrates says he's read and from other sources we know that that title may have been something like word sanctuaries of the muses or shrines of learned speech so very rhetorical title for a book on rhetoric and in another platonic Dialogue about rhetoric so Plato wrote several dialogues about rhetoric the Gorgias is one of them another one is called the feedriss and Socrates there describes Polis so we think that he's an actual person. He was a professional teacher of rhetoric and He was a student of Gorgias and probably other people as well now the Greek word polis literally means cult and Socrates as well as others who mention in antiquity make fun of his name as if he's somebody that has cultish impatience He's also represented as having inferior skills and manners than his teacher So he interrupts Gorgias and he falls back on such weak and fallacious arguments as appeal to popular opinion and appeal to fear now whether or not the actual polis was That much of an asshole or not we is not a question We can answer because we don't have any of his works and we don't have any descriptions of him except by his hostile critics like Plato But the way he's depicted in Plato as somebody that's concerned with Appearances and concerned how he appears to other people and concerned with conventional concepts of morality So he intervenes exactly at a point where Socrates has shown up an inconsistency or a Contradiction in Gorgias's argument and at the end of class last time We discussed what that contradiction is and it comes down to the fact that Gorgias claims both that if a student uses The rhetorical skill that Gorgias teaches Unjustly then the student as opposed to the teacher is Unjust and is to blame But on the other hand if a student doesn't know anything about justice then Gorgias will teach it to him And so the student will be just and so this creates a contradiction because Gorgias's students will both be just and Unjust and that's incoherent But according to polis Gorgias wasn't really being serious or sincere When he said if a student doesn't know about justice then I would make sure he does before giving him these powerful weapons of rhetoric Instead polis says it was only out of shame or embarrassment that Gorgias said that if a student doesn't know about justice Then Gorgias would teach it to him like if you asked me Do you make sure that those students you're teaching know something about justice before you give them those powerful Tools of writing and speaking I would say sure I make sure that they know justice because I wouldn't want to admit that I was teaching potentially unjust people now at 461b and following we can tell that polis at least as he's being depicted by Plato is very concerned about shame and appearances and becoming embarrassed and so forth and He believes that Gorgias said he would only teach justice because he was ashamed not to say that not because he actually Would do so Gorgias in polis's view isn't Guilty of a contradiction in fact he would teach just or unjust people how to use rhetoric He just doesn't want to admit that So polis says Who do you think would deny that he himself knows what's just and would teach it to others everyone? Would say that at least nobody would admit Oh, I don't I guess I don't know the difference between right and wrong or I guess I don't care if the students that I teach are just or unjust So polis is concerned with conforming to popular expectation and avoiding the shame and embarrassment of not doing so now the issue arises whether rhetoric is really an art or craft or skill in Greek a technique or whether it's just a knack or kind of routine in Emperia in Greek and Polis is apparently on the verge of giving a long rhetorical speech of the kind he's learned how to give from Gorgias and A speech that would apparently resolve the contradictions that come out in Gorgias's speech and explain how glorious and powerful rhetoric is without Getting into these contradictions that Socrates led Gorgias into but Socrates says I'm not going to listen to your long-winded speech about it rather. Let's do it this way. I'll ask you some questions and Examine whether you know what you're talking about and you give me the answers to those questions And we'll see if they can be refuted and this is Socrates preferred method Socrates prefers Examining students by midterm and final exams rather than using long writing assignments because with long writing assignments students can go on and bullshit things and not cite their sources and and You know appear kind of linguistically competent and then we have to give them partial credit and so forth But when we give exams we really find out who did the reading and who knows what they're Talking about so Socrates wants to give this kind of immediate examination of The student and that is his that is the Socratic method of Alencus meaning examining and refuting somebody's ideas Now earlier in the dialogue Polis already said two things that are pertinent to the examination that he's made to undergo the first was an assertion that Emperea meaning experience familiarity routine or knack breeds Art Techna while inexperience merely breeds chance lucky or unlucky outcomes But Socrates argues that he doesn't think rhetoric is an art or a skill or a craft He thinks it's merely a routine or familiarity or knack and specifically one that produces gratification and pleasure and Polis says oh, well, isn't that a good thing isn't having a knack or a routine for producing gratification and pleasure Isn't that an admirable thing? Aren't you then agreeing that rhetoric is a great thing since it gives us a routine or a or a method a kind of experience in how to produce gratification and pleasure Now Polis's claim that rhetoric is an admirable thing recalls The second thing that Gorgias had said earlier in the dialogue in response to the question What is your art? That is what is this thing called rhetoric? Polis had said Gorgias had said and now Polis repeats that oh My art is the most admirable of all the arts. So being admirable is a Crucial part of their conception of what they're doing Now as Socrates pointed out that's inadequate as an answer to the question What is this art because it merely gives a quality or specifies the value of the art while not giving any definition of what it actually does But Socrates has a conception of what this is and he says it's not actually an art It's not an art at all rhetoric is just a kind of knack or routine So let's distinguish between three sets of questions a question that says what is an art What is a technique and is rhetoric one of them a second set of questions? It says specifically what is the art of rhetoric and what does it do or what can it achieve and A third set of questions that asks how are we to evaluate the art of rhetoric and is it an admirable thing or a shameful thing? Now Polis in response to the question. What is rhetoric? Gives an answer to the third question at which point Socrates says before we can answer the third question We have to answer the second question. What is this art of rhetoric? What can it actually achieve? So when Polis goes on to answer that question then Socrates responds that actually we can't answer that until we answer the first question So we can't know what the art of rhetoric is or what it could do in achieve Unless we know whether it's an art and what an art actually is so Socrates is showing up how these masters of rhetoric and these masters of answering questions can't even keep straight The order of priority of questions that need to be answered Now it's very insulting I think to say that rhetoric is a Knack or a routine at least if you're someone who thinks that it's an art or a craft or a skill Or even worse if you're somebody who thinks it's a kind of science or a kind of knowledge or something like that To consider it or call it just a knack and not an art or a craft is to Say that it isn't really a skilled thing It's just a matter of routine like I could give you a set of step-by-step Instructions or a checklist that you could carry out and then you would be able to execute that task a Routine exactly as in a computer program or in a comedy routine or anything is just a set of repeatable actions that are performed in response to a given situation and It is attained by experience or familiarity with analogous or similar situations and actions And so a trained rhetorician at this point in time And this is the way that we think the training worked is that you would have Prepared or set speeches designed for different kinds of occasions Oh, if you're praising somebody you want a speech that essentially has these features If you want to blame someone something that has these features if you want to argue that they're guilty say this if you want to Argue they're innocent say say that if you want to encourage someone to do these actions To say these kind of things if you want to discourage them from doing actions Say these other kinds of things and you actually give them sort of model speeches of each one of those And then you say and when you when you find out who your actual audience is then adapt it to those You know fill in the kind of ad lib thing so that you you know replace these generic names with specific names of your Actual client or the person you actually want to praise but basically it's a set out thing that we can just We can just hand over to you now Socrates Criticizes rhetoric by characterizing it is that kind of thing a kind of thing where you just Learn how to do these things by mechanical rote and it doesn't require much Intelligence or creativity But he also further criticizes it by saying that it's specifically a routine or a knack for producing gratification and pleasure Right, so he characterized it as as essentially being a knack for selecting a good Speech and memorizing it that's already been designed to give to a given audience Again sort of like a comedy routine if the comedian is really good then it looks like it's very original But that's because they've done it thousands and thousands of times and so they're capable of making it look like it's really fresh and original But they've done it again and again and so they have a knack for entertaining people and giving them pleasure now this Definition gets replaced by an even more obscure one So Socrates begins to refer And offer a positive account of what rhetoric is by making a distinction He says it's actually a knack not just for producing gratification and pleasure But for producing flattery and he says there's a lot of different arts that produce Flattery that make us feel good or give this give the appearance of something good when it's not actually good So he uses this term that we translate something like catering although it can also be translated dessert making or baking or candy making or confectionery or something Which is a skill that allows one to produce the appearance of good food like food that really tastes good without it actually being Nutritious or it's something you really want to eat. It has a lot of different flavors or it's very attractive To eat, but it's not actually very good for you. There's an art form of doing this I mean most of the people that produce junk food or advertisements for Fast food do this make it look like oh, this is what you want to eat and make it look like it's good food without it Actually being so and he says rhetoric is kind of like that It creates the appearance of good speeches about topics like the just and unjust without Delivering the actual reality of it another Example of this Is cosmetics which he says doesn't actually make people beautiful It just gives them the appearance of beauty without the reality of it And he also throws in Sophistry which is the appearance of making good speeches about things like law And order or even just about natural science and other things Remember sophistry was one of the terms and the charges that came in To describe the kind of activities going on in the thinkery in Aristophanes that you have these people Appearing like they're wise men, but actually they're very foolish and Ridiculous people So if there's a general class of things That tend to flatter us or give us the appearance of things without giving us the reality of them And if rhetoric is one of them Then that tells us what kind of thing or what class of thing rhetoric belongs to But it doesn't yet tell us what makes it a distinctive thing of that kind So socrates further specifies that rhetoric is a quote Image of a part of politics That's at 463 d and that's a very obscure Expression and one that we have to unpack and the interlocutors are made to respond by saying What the hell do you mean by calling rhetoric an image of the of a part of politics? It's it's an obscure thing to say So in order to explain this we have to develop an elaborate analogy between Different kinds of skills. So consider various kinds of skills For caring for the body. So I'm just going to talk about this column here so gymnastics and medicine are two different kinds of skills that cater to caring for the body and Gymnastics is a kind of care for the body that preserves and enhances the body Makes it makes it fit by Taking the health that it already has and making it even stronger and better Whereas medicine is a corrective or restorative care of the body in case there's disease or illness Then medicine is a is a kind of art Skill or craft a technique that comes in in order to restore or correct. What's wrong in the body and Socrates compares that to an analogous Set of things that care for the soul not the body What cares for the soul by preserving and enhancing it is legislation So we pass laws in order to take the citizen body The the the body politic as it were and make it good make it Better preserve its good parts enhance the parts of it that are good And in case there's parts of the body politic Or rather of the soul of certain people That's actually bad or deficient in some way then we use justice the justice system in order to correct or restore the health of the soul and so This is actually meant to be a division of politics that Paula There's two dimensions to politics one is legislation That's the preservative and enhancing part that takes the souls of the citizens And and keeps what's good in them and makes it even better And justice is the part that restores or corrects the deficiencies And so justice is therefore analogous to medicine which does Deals with the the illnesses or deficiencies of the body and legislation is analogous to gymnastics Gymnastics since it preserves and enhances the body Okay, so keep in mind That analogy and now we expand The analogy considerably So again starting with this first column To repeat myself care of the body We have two kinds of arts skills or crafts associated with this gymnastics which preserves or enhances the body and medicine which corrects Or restores it in case of deficiencies or illnesses And socrates says there's two kinds of flattery Knacks that correspond to those so corresponding to gymnastics Is something that creates an image of preserving or enhancing the body And that's cosmetics or plastic surgery or something that Doesn't actually make anybody more beautiful, you know, like plastic surgery just makes people look like they have plastic surgery But you know cosmetics just Just make give the appearance that somebody's beautiful without the reality of it and this Catering or pastry making or baking or whatever Isn't like medicine which actually Regulates diets and so forth so as to improve health But it makes it seem like it's giving wholesome good food by making it taste good by making it appealing in other ways but cosmetics is to gymnastics as catering is to Medicine that is these are these are Images or fake versions of those So-called arts that imitate actual Arts like gymnastics and medicine now if we move over to this column And so we're talking about the soul and politics. We also have our legitimate skill and art of legislation Which again aims at preserving and enhancing the body Politics and justice which aims at correcting or restoring in case there's some injustice or deficiency there But corresponding to those there are also these fake Nacks these imitative things that merely give us an image of that and the name of the thing that Imitates legislation the fake version of it is called sophistry And now we arrive at our definition of rhetoric rhetoric is that knack or Routine which gives an image of being a corrective or restorative art corresponding to justice without actually being it and that is how Rhetoric is an image of a part of politics part of politics because politics divides into legislation and justice And an image of a part of it because it's an image or a fake replica of that part of politics that deals with justice So rhetoric is therefore the the scope of it is restricted here to talking about justice And the kind of things that happens in courts and rhetoric, you know training lawyers to be able to get clients off or Prosecute them with indifference to what the actual truth is that kind of skill Is Called an image of a part of politics for that reason And any questions about that That elaborate set of analogies and how he arrives at that definition Okay, good now Polis says well, you're calling it a kind of flattery That you seem to hold it in low regard socrates But I don't think that Rhetoric should be held in low regard because Rhetoricians have the greatest power in cities So they should be held in high regard High-powered attorneys really powerful people in society Right So socrates responds by denying that rhetoricians actually Have great power in cities if by power we mean something that's good for the one who has the power Now notice that polis accepts socrates linkage of power and self-interest He points out that rhetoricians Just like tyrants Can have people put to death confiscate property Banish or exile people from the city Don't these examples show that they have great power in cities You know if a high-powered attorney comes after you he can He can prosecute you with a death penalty and get you put to death or Make it so that all of your property is seized or that you're exiled and banished from the city Seems like great power, right? Socrates responds by attempting to prove that rhetoricians and tyrants May do what seems fit to them By banishing and confiscating and exiling and so forth But they still don't have power to do what they want to do And if he can show that Then they he would show that they in fact do not have great power So how does he show that? Well, I break the argument down for you into basically six parts First part is we make a distinction between three different classes of things First of all good things things that we could all agree are good things like wisdom beauty wealth and health They're always good. They always produce good Consequences for the person who has them and we can distinguish those from bad things This is a pretty elementary lesson in ethics, but Ignorance poverty sickness those are always bad and always produce bad consequences for the person that has them And we can distinguish these good things and bad things from neutral things or what we might call instrumental things Things like walking running sailing sticks stones and so forth Sometimes those are good. Sometimes they're bad. Sometimes it's good to walk.  So it could be good could be bad So things in this class are utilized either for good or bad, but are not in themselves Good or bad they are neutral or instrumental Okay, the second part of the argument we observe that neutral things are always chosen for the sake of good things And not for bad things. We always want to bring about Good things that means things that are in our own interest So we choose things in the neutral category because we want to achieve good things or avoid bad things We don't choose them for the sake of doing neutral things themselves So people take medicine In order to get healthy not just so that they can take medicine And people work in order that they can make a living not just because they love working Or people show up to lectures in order That they can pass the class or get a degree not just because they love showing up at lectures So neutral things like showing up at lectures taking pills working All fit into this neutral category and aren't themselves good or bad Now the next three steps I can go through pretty quickly Activities like banishing people from the city Confiscating their property or putting them to death are neutral things hence. They're done for the sake of some Good thing those who do these things want to do them because they achieve something good again good for themselves So nobody banishes just for the sake of banishing or confiscates property just for confiscating property You confiscate property because you think it'll be good because I'll have more property then and wealth is a good Thing or if I banish this person then they won't challenge my power and my having power is a good thing Or I put them to death because they're a menace to society and I want to avoid that that Evil being a problem Now if a tyrant or an orator confiscates someone or puts them to death or banishes them because he thinks that a good Thing will result from that but in fact a bad thing results from it Then we'll say he does what he sees fit But not what he actually wants to do This is again because everybody that employs Neutral or instrumental things wants them for the sake of good things Not bad things But sometimes they end up actually producing bad things and if they do he's done what he sees fit But not what he actually wants to do also Throw in this premise and emphasize it that by having power I necessarily mean something good for the one who has power so holding This argument to the strict requirement that it show that these good things are good for the agents themselves I'm not talking about some generic abstract sense of good in the overall universe or good According to how philosophers talk about it. I mean very simply good in the agents own interest The final step is that if the rhetorician or tyrant achieves a bad thing by banishing or confiscating Or putting someone to death Then he's done something bad for himself And he's not done what he wanted to do but has done what he saw fit to do Therefore it's possible for rhetoricians and tyrants to do things that they see fit And yet not have real power which requires doing what they want to do So consequently polis has claimed that rhetoricians like tyrants wield great power in cities by virtue of the fact that they can do whatever they want Is refuted by socrates that doesn't mean they can do whatever they want It just means they can do what they see fit But you haven't shown that them being able to do what they see fit Is what they want to do or is in their own Interest that would take a further argument. Yeah I mean doing something that benefits them that's in their own interest. That's all I mean by doing good Okay, it would this would be a much weaker argument if all I had to show is that Is talking about good in an abstract sense, but This is these these people banishing exiling and so forth Socrates means to say are doing things that's not in their own self interest not just that it's bad because we condemn things like like Banishing innocent people are confiscating their property. There might be a sense in which that's just bad That we could argue that doing that is bad Morally, even if it's to the benefit of the person like they get rich from doing it or something like this But socrates argument is that it's bad for that person themselves Or at least that polis hasn't shown that it's good for that person themselves All he's all he has been able to do is show that they're able to do these things There's but there's there's an assumption that being able to do things is good But it's like these examples we keep coming up to that, you know Mere power is not in itself good nuclear power might be good if it allows us to Solve the energy crisis or to have a form of energy that doesn't admit as much carbon and so Can deal with climate, but it could be bad if it gets in the hands of people who use it as a weapon like the us did and so forth so Merely saying they have the ability to do a bunch of neutral activities does not show what the argument is intended to show And that that's socrates point Now how does polis respond he says that socrates Position that it's possible for one who has power in the city to do as he sees fit but not To do what he wants He replies that by saying that well socrates you would envy somebody that had the ability to execute or banish people or seize their property Wouldn't you envy somebody that had that power in the city and socrates says well, do you mean The day that I would have the power to do those things justly or unjustly And polis says doesn't matter Wouldn't you be envied either way? In fact, it seems even more enviable to polis if you can do it with indifference To justice or injustice that just shows you have more power If you only have power to do it justly that would be kind of a restriction on your power What's the point of being a tyrant is that you don't have to worry about stuff like that?  Maybe the worst thing Almost as bad is being put to death unjustly Presumably being put to death unjustly is better because at least you weren't unjust and didn't actually murder those people It's still bad because you're dead, but at least at least you you can hold on to the fact that You didn't do anything wrong Better than either of those because you live is putting other people to death justly I mean pretty much we can all agree that's a good thing if it's just now I don't happen to think that the death penalty is ever Just but that's we don't need to think about that issue We could replace putting to death with any form of punishment and the argument Would work out so suppose that there are some people that it's just to put to death. They're so monstrous They've they've done such horrendous crimes that death is actually justified then putting them to death unjustly would be Would be a good thing to do And polis thinks is the best thing is if you could put people to death unjustly If you had so much power that you could you could put people to death whether they Deserved it or not because you're a you're a super strong tyrant okay, and Socrates flips this ranking and he says that actually putting people to death unjustly is the worst thing you can do It is worse Even than being put to death Justly or being put to death unjustly So the rankings actually agree except for The elements that i've put in green and red they agree On which things are better and worse except for they flip Whether it's a great power to put somebody to death unjustly or whether that's actually the worst thing you can do Now polis says oh, okay, so you wouldn't want to be a tyrant then Right and socrates replies by giving him a thought experiment The thought experiment as he puts it is the crowded marketplace We could replace it with a school Shooter example, right you all have the power you could have just brought a gun in here and shot us all right You could have murdered us All and so put us all to death Every one of you has the power to do that There's almost nothing we could do To reply to it as so many instances show isn't that a great power you can put to death whoever you want And polis says well that that that would be good that would be nice but the problem is that And and their example is somebody brings a knife into a crowded marketplace Yes, you could start attacking random people with a knife and put them to death But it's not such a great thing because you're likely to get caught Caught or killed And so therefore it's not actually in your self-interest. That's not a great power Right again the action itself is neutral Stabbing people with knives shooting them with guns that could be good or could be bad But the power to do it itself Is not a great or a good power until we find out if its consequences are good or bad So since it's only when the outcome is good that the person who acts can be said to have real power Someone only has real power if they act justly not unjustly So no, you don't have a great power the fact that you could have brought a gun in here and killed us all That's not that isn't a great power. It doesn't benefit you. It's not a good Thing it's not a power and people that do that are weak and miserable unjust horrible human beings But polis actually rejects this and claims that ancient history has got ample Examples of people who acted unjustly and are a lot happier because they did so And his example is arc allows although you could replace it with practically any other politicians in history But the example is meant to show that a person who would have been a slave because of treachery and murder of innocent people Usurps the throne and becomes a tyrant and is able to torture and put other people to death and enslave them and so forth and polis says Isn't he better because he was unjust so that he became able to do that and polis says Everyone would agree that he's happier than if he had not been unjust almost everyone Everyone or almost everyone would agree And that leads to a digression which gets into The fallacy of appealing to what everyone or most people would say which cuts no ice whatsoever in a moral argument like this Although i won't bother going through The reasons for that So returning to the main line of argument the next stage that's crucial Is to point out how polis thinks it's possible to be Unjust and happy as long as one doesn't get punished and socrates denies this holding that quote This is 472 e A man who is unjust is thoroughly miserable The more so If he doesn't get his due punishment for the wrong doing he commits the less So if he pays and receives what is due at the hands of both gods and men Now polis supports his side by saying but punishments really painful and and he describes getting Tortured and banished and punished and having your property confiscated and he commits another fallacy of reasoning that we call Appeal to fear you must think this is a bad thing because it's painful So you must think punishments bad because it's painful and nobody wants to undergo pain but socrates offers A different rank ordering that challenges polis's assumptions So polis thinks that it's more miserable to be an unjust person who is punished than to be an unjust person who isn't punished But socrates argues it's exactly opposite is more More miserable to be an unjust person who's not punished than to be an unjust person who is punished Now the key to the entire rest of the episode with polis is the following concession that he makes He thinks that suffering injustice is worse than doing injustice But he concedes that doing injustice is more shameful than suffering it and remember this is a manifestation of his character He is the kind of person who is concerned about shame and embarrassment and conventional morality So while he thinks that the person who is unjust and is punished Is more miserable he'll agree that that's less shameful And while he thinks that an unjust person who isn't punished is less miserable because they didn't have the pain of being punished He agrees that it's more shameful And that of course fits with our Intuitions even if you're the kind of person who thinks that it'd be great to be a murderer or a robber If you could get away with it still it seems that you would agree It's more shameful to be a murderer or a robber than to be murdered or to be robbed And furthermore you think it's more shameful to be a robber who's not punished than it is to be a robber Who is punished? That's much less shameful so The shame and the good state come apart in in polis's account And this allows socrates to make a set of proofs of those paradoxes that I pointed out to you last time So he's able to show why committing injustice is actually worse than suffering injustice So he defines the admirable that predicate that polis is so concerned with Socrates says that the admirable means That it either produces more pleasure or more benefit and the shameful produces more pain or more harm So if something is more shameful, it's either more painful or more harmful or both But if committing injustice is more shameful Then committing injustice is either more painful more harmful or both now committing Committing injustice is not painful That's what we've just been through and why the appeal to fear doesn't work on that side of the argument But since committing injustice is not painful by a process of elimination It must be that it's either more that it's more harmful than suffering injustice Thus it is less bad and less harmful to suffer injustice than to commit injustice And again being punished is better or more good than not being punished by a similar argument Just punishment involves paying what is due if you're justly punished, then you pay what's due And there's a theory presented that you're acted upon by being punished And if something acts upon another thing then the thing that's acted upon Assumes the quality of the thing acting upon it So if you've been punished justly Then you justly pay what's due and so you do adjust an admirable thing And so you are just the person who is punished and does his time or subjects himself to that punishment Is for that very reason A just person Now polis conceded that justice is more admirable than injustice But if it's more admirable then it's either more pleasant or more beneficial or both Now clearly being punished is not more pleasurable than not being punished So by a process of elimination it must be that being punished is more beneficial Thus whoever is punished is benefited by being punished and it is better to be punished than not to be punished Assuming you've done something wrong And finally we can use this argument to show why injustice is actually the worst thing of all by introducing A couple more principles here So socrates tries to make his claim that being punished is better than not being punished more plausible by Developing a theory of punishment that we call Rehabilitative theory or rehabilitation and a rehabilitative theory of punishment basically says That a person is improved by being punished the point of punishing them is to make them actually better One who pays what's due Gets rid of something bad in his soul And of bad things those in the soul are the worst And I can prove that easily by distinguishing between three kinds of bad things Bad things with respect to external things like wealth The bad thing would be poverty with respect to the body It would be something like illness or disease With respect to the soul its corruption or justice Now which of these is most shameful Being poor is not more shameful than being corrupt or unjust and being sick Or having a disease is not more shameful than being corrupt or unjust thus Injustice and corruption of the soul is the most shameful And it follows from that since it's most shameful that it's either most harmful most painful or bull Now injustice is not more painful than poverty or sickness of course So by a process of elimination injustice must be more harmful Being the most harmful injustice then is the worst thing that there is Socrates argues Now here's why committing injustice and not being Punished is the worst thing of all Various kinds of bad things Socrates says are remedied by certain crafts So you go to a banker or a financier to remedy the badness of poverty And you go to a doctor or a medical practitioner in order To remedy the bad things of the body like disease or illness That's why we go to bankers and doctors Who do we go to in order to solve corruption and disease? We go to judges Socrates asks polis directly which of these crafts do you think is more admirable banking medicine or law? And of course he says law because he's a law student Who's just finished law school and learning how to argue in law courts So he says that must be the most admirable one It follows that it must be the most pleasurable or the most beneficial or both Now consider the case of people going to doctors in order to cure disease Often the treatment is painful, but the long-term result is less pain and other benefits like longevity or vitality Or going to the dentist sometimes it's painful But it's a lot less painful than having all of your teeth wrought out So it is with going to judges sometimes the treatment or the punishment is painful But they're being treated by the most admirable Agents in the most admirable way with respect to the most important things A person who doesn't undergo such treatment on the other hand keeps the shameful thing and the horrible evils With respect to the most important thing his soul and in the most disgraceful way So the person who tries to escape punishment because they're focused on the pain of it and not the benefit Is like a patient who focuses on the pain of dental surgery Or of injections instead of the benefit of the surgery or the drugs And thus since these tyrants like arcalaus are most unjust and they're have such power that they're able to avoid all Punishment they're in the worst possible state. So they're the most miserable and the most harmful human beings of all So the conclusion that socrates draws from this it's really incredible But he draws the conclusion that rhetoric is completely useless unless you're a bad person so He applies these foregoing arguments to the value of rhetoric. He says in courts Rhetoric can help you get off if you've committed an injustice That's the source of the tyrannical power that polis considers so impressive But this result only helps you in being harmed and becoming more miserable Helping you avoid punishment makes you worse if you've really done something wrong The only good use of rhetoric socrates says would be if you used it to accuse and convict yourself if you did anything unjust Or if one of your friends or family did something wrong Then you could use rhetoric in order to convince judges and juries that they ought to punish you Or your friends or your family to make sure that they get that healthy and wholesome punishment that improves our souls On the other hand if you have an enemy in court someone that you hate And they're about to be found guilty and punished then rhetoric would be useful to help them get off and escape Punishment and this way you could make your enemies Miserable and shameful people and hurt them by unjustly getting them off in court and using your rhetorical abilities to to Make it so that they aren't found guilty That would be a kind of usefulness of rhetoric So rhetoric is useful Just in case either you committed some injustice And so you need to ensure that you yourself get punished or your friends or family Or it would be useful if your enemy committed injustice But you want to help him avoid punishment so that he doesn't become a better person The conclusion then is that for the person who doesn't have any intention of committing injustice Rhetoric doesn't have any use whatsoever