Hi everybody, we're having a lot of fun with, well, now I'm having some fun echo. Sorry about that. So we've been having a few technical issues this morning. And so that's been entertaining between Bitwarden being down and, you know, and then issues with Chrome, etc. And so off we roll. However, I think we have a really exciting show for today. We're having the working, the kind of new working group for the Deaf and the Hard of Hearing in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. And so we have a couple of guests who are kind of helping to lead that group and establish that group. And so I was hoping you could introduce yourselves. Maybe we can start with Destiny. Sure. Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Destiny O'Connor. I am the co-chair for the CNCF Deaf and Hard of Hearing Working Group. And hello, I'm Rob Koch, also co-chair of the CNCF Working Group with Destiny here. And we want to introduce my sign language interpreter as well. Her name is Amelia. And so she'll be doing the voicing for both of us. She's doing double duty. So thanks for having, thanks for being here too. Cool. Thank you. So we always like to start kind of like the interviews with, you know, what brought you to kind of open source or Kubernetes kind of in the first place.   Yeah. Destiny, do you want to start? Sure. So I really, I would say I sort of, I guess we came up with the idea of having this Deaf and Hard of Hearing Working Group and just a message was sent out to ask for help with Deaf and Hard of Hearing in tech. And I saw that post on LinkedIn. And so that's kind of where I fell into this space here, contributing that way to open source. And then, yeah, Rob is saying also as a developer myself for many years, I became a Kubernetes practitioner. And now I'm in the data engineering space. And so just the past, you know, 25 years plus that I've been in the industry, the first time that I kind of came to contributing to the open source community, I would say I see people contribute code or, you know, being able to just manage that type of work. And I realized that there was a huge community behind the scenes through the whole environment there. And Catherine, the person who we were involved with for bringing up the idea of having this Deaf and Hard of Hearing Working Group, that was kind of an opportunity to give us that chance to make the community better and contribute, including more inclusive with the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Group globally and within the community. So it's kind of about who you know. A lot of hearing people don't know any Deaf or Hard of Hearing folks that, you know, they may be not socialized with them, or maybe it makes it difficult for them to be more inclusive. So that was kind of the idea. It was like a little bit more of a assertive move to create help in that area. And so we came in and kind of expanded that working group.  And it's beneficial to include us in the discussion and include us as well as, you know, in talks or anything like that in the various areas. So that's how we got here. Cool. Yeah. One of the things that I know happened at KubeCon, right, was you actually kind of did like kind of an announcement of the group. And I wanted to kind of comment on, you know, you took a broader approach than just kind of this particular group. Can you elaborate on that announcement in that talk or that presentation that you did? Yeah. Yeah. So I was one of the keynote speakers for diversity within the contributor area. And a lot of those people on the panel were from different countries and contributing to the open source community. That was a really wonderful experience. I got to learn about various things from different people, but we talked about accessibility and, you know, the contributors that maybe there aren't enough in that area. So we had that working group and kind of went through these other options and things we can do to help accommodate and, you know, accommodate for anyone's needs and preferences whilst at conferences and things like that. So our working group really focused on having those resources for contributors within that area. That talk was not necessarily just about us, but about diversity in the community and in Kubernetes, et cetera. And then Rob is saying for us here is to improve the experience for the audience, not only for the deaf and hard of hearing, but in general, the general audience. For example, captioning in KubeCon, there was a part where people were saying different things or giving different updates to their projects and it was really, really fast. And accents were strong and things like that for the speakers. So it was a little bit more difficult for the audience to maybe pick up on some of that. So we provided some feedback on that to be able to put subtitles on the screen that would benefit everybody so that if you are, you know, we have like real-time captioner, which we call CART and that means captioner in real-time. So it's kind of like what you see in the court system sometimes in the United States here. And so they were able to provide subtitles on the screen. And I think it helps with folks that maybe have, like I said, thicker accents or maybe they have English as a second language or something like that. They can access that content just as well and have it more streamlined in a sense. So during one of the keynotes, the captions actually went out on us. And so it was, it wasn't super negative and it wasn't, you know, anybody's fault necessarily, but it was just kind of a funny moment where we had the interpreter then was able to come in and, you know, if that, if that's type of thing happens, then the interpreter is already ready and ready to go there. So it's about kind of just making sure that we have all of that context behind the speaker. There is some discussion of the panelists, you know, if they're getting, let's say, you know, there's a panel discussion and people are getting heated, then the interpreter can verify the context where it's like the captions can't necessarily provide that.  So there's a lot of different reasons that we would use different accommodations. So we're just kind of putting together those sort of things to help in the various situations that might come up. So I guess what I'm hearing you say though is that the demo gods are very inclusive is the first, you know, is the first takeaway, right? Sorry, voice is cracking there. One of the things that I actually think has really been beneficial is they actually passed a law relatively recently in Boston where I live where if you're in any location that has like a television, the closed captioning must be on, like if it's a public place, like a bar or a restaurant or whatever. And personally, I find it really handy. I actually find closed captioning well, you know, kind of in general, also really handy, you know, either and, you know, technically actually English is not my first language, but it may as well be. And but even so, I'm a better reader than I am a listener in a lot of ways. So I think it's really useful for me. I do want to point out though that you kind of said the word diversity there, right, which is really interesting to me. You know, one of the things that I try to instill in the students who are taking classes around software, etc. is that diversity of your team is really, really important. And there's a lot of reasons why that is. And what I was hoping is that you can kind of share with us some of your reasons for why you think it's important to have diverse teams kind of in all different types of diversity. You know, what have you found that that you bring to the table or that other people that you know bring to the table that changes a team's dynamic or the quality of their work? Yeah, I would say because deaf and hard of hearing folks include everyone, regardless of, you know, what we how we are, how diverse we are. And we learn a lot of different things from different people's culture.  So I think we have a good advantage to be able to show our work and how we work together on kind of a common goal. With deaf and hard of hearing, all of us have many different flavors and paths to how we've navigated technology. Some of us speak, some of us don't, some of us focus on captions, some of us don't, some of us sign, some of us don't. And so it's kind of a perfect way to show how we navigate also as well as accommodating everyone. So I think with that, it's a huge advantage to hire deaf and hard of hearing just because of multiple ways that we are diverse, you know, everybody individually is different. Like I said, their culture and their experience that comes with them, you know, so I think that's one nice amazing thing about this group is becoming, even though, you know, we're small, but, you know, globally, we're learning every things from people all over the world. And there's a lot of different experiences that, you know, are overwhelming at the same time appreciated in that group. So I think a lot of doors can be opening and just exposing kind of like how we are and how we provide, you know, the accessibility that will benefit everyone. So it's really just being able to show how we can include everyone kind of in one. Rob, are you going to add something? Sorry. Yeah, I guess just to add to that. So in the workplace, diversity helps kind of fit what clients or consumers are. So if you want something like the product to reflect what is out there in the marketplace, for example, you could say things like, you know, white males in the industry, there are plenty in the tech industry. And so if we sell the product to all white males, then that wouldn't necessarily be beneficial to everyone. So I think having a diverse team in that space brings those different ideas and cultures and backgrounds and experiences from all over the place where we can, you know, make a product that people can identify with and take advantage of that diversity within the group to contribute to those products. And then also things like while you're developing those type of products, you can shift left and want to make sure that your product is accessible from day one instead of making it hackable to then make it sort of work for the different types of accessibility that might come up, you know, mobility or visualization, you know, if somebody has any sort of visual disability or if they're deaf or hard of hearing, if we start with that from day one and get those perspectives included, there's so many stories related to that where you see it trying, people trying to do it at the end. So I think if we raise awareness in the industry, then that can be beneficial in that way as well. So while I know I asked the question, one of the things that I think is important about diverse teams is that you don't actually know what it's going to bring to the table, right?  And you can't even necessarily articulate always why or what exactly the difference will be, just that it'll be, you know, quote unquote a more inclusive product or a better product, but I would say straight up just better, higher quality, you know, better solution to most problems if you bring different viewpoints to the software. And like I said, I regularly talk about this in class. And, you know, it's really important, I think, to, you know, to the software world to kind of be paying attention to this. So kind of leading from there, what's kind of the goal, you feel like, for this group, you know, that is kind of the secret goal, right? Or what's underneath the mission statement? You know, what's behind what you're trying to accomplish? I would say really to bring exposure to the deaf and hard of hearing, as well as to the folks in the community. I think just to show how to be inclusive, to show, you know, just spread awareness of how we, you can interact with us, how to help us understand better how to interact with us, feel comfortable to interact with us and provide accessibility and not be afraid of saying, oh gosh, I don't know what to do.  And I know folks oftentimes don't know what to do for that. So it's mainly showing resources, provide learning opportunities, telling people it's not, you know, you don't have to be afraid to ask questions, it's a safe space. So I think it's just all here to provide a learning experience to be able to focus on deaf and hard of hearing to get them more involved as contributors and networking and the list goes on and on. So I would say it's a lot about just kind of educating folks so that everyone else can, you know, help our community help your community kind of bring those two things together. And then Rob was saying, yeah, the first thing that we did as CNCF deaf and hard of hearing working group, the first thing that we did was we wanted to make KubeCon in Chicago accessible. So we kind of had all of the information collected together, different conference experiences that we've gone to, different meetings and all this stuff kind of bringing it all that information culminating in one place. And then being able to document that and put in sort of a best practice with a list of things that we then sent to KubeCon and the organizers and the CNCF event team did amazing work this past Chicago conference. It was I mean, they really went out of their way to accommodate and make sure that our needs were met. And for I guess I could say for one example, a lot of conferences that I've gone to you go and you're there in a session, let's say, all day, having interpreters, you know, being provided it's great. And I would say the more exciting part of the conference maybe was that networking capability. That's really key for us at conferences, you know, and I think a lot of people getting out there networking, talking business, making new friends and connections, oftentimes interpreters are not provided in the evening type of events like that. And sometimes at conferences, we go really late, you know, minimal sleep and that kind of stuff. But you know, it's just like getting together afterwards, you know, different events that happen after the conference during the day. And so having conversation while you're eating or socializing, that is important to have interpreters for as well. So that's kind of one example of the tips that we ask for the host and the organizers to provide interpreters, not only during the day, but also for those evening networking events that we can take, you know, take advantage of the opportunity. And so it's just one of those things that I think people don't necessarily think about. So we're just trying to like create those types of scenarios that we can provide that, you know, best practice documentation for. Right. Are there any other, you know, kind of conferences or organizations or whatever that you would give a shout out to that do a really good job of this?  Because as the example are, or are there other ones that we can look to that are quite good already? I have, I would say there's three different conferences that I've gone to pretty regularly. There was Microsoft build years ago that I did go that was a good experience and provided accommodations, even though it was kind of a brand new experience for them. The evening part in the networking was still, you know, like I said, it's very important. So I did feel a little left out in some of those spaces. And so I did say after the fact, oh, shoot, you know, maybe we need to emphasize that. I also go to AWS reinvent. And we were just there a couple weeks ago. And I've gone seven times now. And every experience at reinvent has been amazing as well. They do a really great job. That event team. So I'd like, you know, just to mention that they do a great job with us as far as kind of, I think we've set the benchmark there. So we're just trying to kind of emphasize that now a lot more deaf and hard of hearing go to that conference. Chicago, of course, was great. I already mentioned that. And so really looking forward to Paris. That's an added twist, though, I will say, because KubeCon Chicago is US based. And so everyone speaks English for the most part and everyone signs in American Sign Language, or ASL. Now we bring this to Paris, and it'll be a new experience from that perspective as well because testing out how we do this because the speakers will be speaking in English, but international attendees will be there and every country has its own sign language. So British Sign Language, for example, they use a two handed alphabet, whereas in ASL we use a one handed alphabet. So there's some different things here that the sign languages are different. So are we going to move to international sign language for something like that or keep it based in American Sign Language or British Sign Language? The business speak or the language of the business, I would say is English. So in the deaf world, there's no language of the business. So that'll be an interesting experience for us when we go to that one. Yeah, I think that's one of those things that a lot of people don't realize is that there isn't just some magic sign language that works everywhere. So it's important. And I think it's funny that you even kind of come at business English, which is also not actually one language really. We have lots of different Englishes and they do vary and they have subtleties that definitely imply different things. And so it's interesting. There's just as much complexity in sign languages or spoken languages. And so I think Paris should be interesting is the handy way we put it in tech. And so I kind of wanted to go down a slightly different path, which is, are there particular projects or particular organizations, particularly in the open source world, that you feel like are kind of very inclusive, especially of deaf in the heart of hearing? Obviously, some will be more inclusive of all different kinds of things than others. But are there ones in particular that you find that are really kind of good at this or good at things that we can go to for a reference for how to operate an organization that is more inclusive of the deaf in the heart of hearing? Basically, with my experience, Destiny is saying I've tried to have access through other groups and open source and whatnot. And the accessibility, the moment I let them know if I'm going to go to a meeting or if let's say it's on Zoom or whatever kind of meeting that we're doing. And we're going to have deaf people there. Close captioning is important. Maybe they don't see it or they don't respond or I'll get back with you. There's many different things that I've heard over the years. And with CNCF, they've been amazing since asking for accommodations and interacting with us. We just get those accommodations and those needs met from the very first time that I've gone to this tech conference. And it's been really amazing. And I have some lower expectations sometimes because I had not had interpreters or captioning or anything when I've gone to other scenarios like this. And walking into the CNCF conference is just was all there. And so with Cloud Native and the deaf and hard of hearing working group, I just keep telling the group that I'm really, this is like the best with all of it being coordinated and working together and helping and the support and all of those things that's very inspiring. All of the things that we need, if we have any concerns, we can relay that and they listen. And if there is nothing, you know, no experience, they have no idea about it. We try our best to explain it and ask for this or that. And we can have the discussion together to come up with the solution. So that's really been amazing to me from my experience. And, you know, basing that off of a lot of experiences. So yeah, the deaf and hard of hearing working group that I mean, just all of that has been great. Like, so we've only been up and running for about four or five months now, but it's been amazing. Yeah, and Rob says I'd like to draw from Destiny's experience to Ed KubeCon, which he was talking about that experience. We want to make up the standard so that it becomes in the community to be expected, I guess you could say, instead of having to like fight for it, educate it and kind of do the same thing over and over. We, as a deaf person, do that a lot. And so educating about our needs and about our what makes our successful experience and outcome personally, we educate about that a lot. And so we just want to make this the standard and make that experience standardized for everyone. So the more that information is spread, we have on our web page, we have a section on contribute.cncf.io. And so if you look for that, there's an accessibility tab in there. And so like I said, those best practices and things that we've documented there, we're hoping to just disclose all of that information so that people can access it. And really the cost is minimal compared to the entire conference itself when you look at that, because I know some people do get concerned with that. So it's very small percentage. So we want to set that as the standard. And other conferences then can reference that and say, okay, yeah, we'll pull those best practices from there. And then being able to utilize that experience that Destiny had at KubeCon, that could be the experience for everyone at all conferences. And then Destiny saying back to what I was saying, with Cloud Native, that was one of what everyone benefits from. We got to meet so many people because we have the accommodations there and it's really been amazing. I don't really even know how to describe our working group and how we work together. It's just mind blowing. Or have the sign to describe it, Rob said it, not the words, but the signs to describe it. Absolutely. So just as kind of an example, one of the things that I've noticed specifically around food allergies is it has finally gotten to become normal to just expect kind of food accommodations. Because it started off really, really hard. I've been kind of watching it over the last like 15 or 20 years. And it's taken a while. But now I kind of, it's an unusual case, where I am not asked for food concerns. And so I think that's a great kind of analogy that, hey, it can change. It just, it might take a bit, but hopefully we can get there at some point. I wanted to take a slightly different direction now again. And I'm going to ask when we were kind of putting together some of the questions we had in mind, it seems like there's a lot of fear in the kind of workplace of hiring and what kind of combinations might be required. Or how can an organization that wants to be supportive, be supportive to the deaf and hard of hearing in kind of a workplace? Obviously, we're focused on tech, but maybe feel free to expand upon else as well. For me, from my perspective, I try to educate no matter what if the company has never experienced a deaf and hard of hearing person before. When I tell you, you know, don't, don't freak out. I would say just, you know, it's like, oh, gosh, and that, you know, don't worry about it as much because you're not going to trouble for not being educated. The deaf and hard of hearing person will, you know, have that conversation and say what we need. And as a company, I would suggest having that discussion with the team, with the right people, reach out to folks. Where can I get these things? Educate yourself. You know, just having certain questions about what you have, more of what you need, resources, things like that. Just I would say feel comfortable to just have that conversation and be open to learning. Be open to saying, you know, it's not bad at all. It's just, you know, something that maybe has just not been experienced. So I think that's all I want to kind of like convey is like, we have resources for you. And if you're not sure, just ask. We can give out that information and then guidance from there, you know. If, you know, things like that in an interview process, you can still try, you know, ask questions. Who can I talk to to help with that? Do I need, you know, time from the tech department to help me with some of these things? Especially if, you know, it's a small team and you need to reach out to other folks and things. If you're not sure, particular products, particular things, right? So it's the same idea as, you know, something like that. You might not get it right at the first time, but don't be afraid to ask about it. And then Rob is saying, I would also say, right, that we don't fight deaf and hard of hearing people don't fight. So we, we, everyone or every deaf person or disabled person, really, I don't want to like, necessarily limit it to deaf, but just any disabled person has their needs. And I would say, like, you know, like, for example, a wheelchair, wheelchair user, they will have different needs than another wheelchair user, right? Maybe the automated buttons or maybe they have a motorized wheelchair or a manual wheelchair.  And so it's hard to kind of put people into a broader group. I think sometimes, you know, deaf or hard of hearing or blind individuals, you know, blind people can have maybe blurry vision, whereas others have absolutely zero vision. And so I think he is to just not assume anything. I would say that there are different needs is kind of like, if you're, if you're not sure, just ask, you know, it's, it's many times, it's very difficult to maybe get in the door. This is my kind of like thing. I think we need to focus on getting disabled folks in the door. I think helping with that. Hiring managers tend to hire people that are similar to them, what they're comfortable with. Maybe they're, maybe they went to the same college, for example, you know, have some commonality there, or maybe there's a Satan socioeconomic group that they come from, different level of, you know, tech pro type stuff, you know, just the, those type of people tend to get hired right on the spot. But if you, I would challenge hiring managers to get out of your comfort zone and hire people who are different than you, kind of going back to that diversity piece. If you have diversity in your organization, it adds different voices to the organization. And I think by doing that, your products, again, like I was mentioning before, can often be very similar with a similar sort of group thing. So I would say change it up, you know, bring in diverse people, bring in diverse and disabled people into the organization. So kind of bringing it back to the focus of kind of the group, right. In the next six months, what are you expecting to deliver?  But we want to know, like, so what can we expect in the next six months or what are you most looking forward to over, you know, over that amount of time? Rob, you want to take this one? Yeah, sure. So I would say keep going. Get that experience, you know, like we said, that amazing conference experience that we've had. Keep going with that and learn from what we will learn in Paris. And that experience, you know, just documenting all of those things, publicize that. And I would say that's kind of one of our big goals. And then just include more diversity in the group. So we've got the deaf and hard of hearing working group. That's kind of like low hanging fruit for us because we are deaf and hard of hearing. And so that's kind of easy for us to document our needs and all of that. So I would say that those two things in the next six months, I would say, yeah, just what we'll learn from the international sign language experience and then moving on from KubeCon. Oh yeah, that's what I was going to say, is including more, if we bring, start to sort of fine tune those contributors out there and bring them into the Kubernetes ecosystem, having things like different products in Kubernetes, in the Kubernetes landscape as a whole, having it, you know, all those diverse contributors, Kubernetes core, you know, the API, LingerD, you know, all of this stuff, maybe things like Falco, maybe they need help, you know, different things like that, different products that are out there, maybe, you know, enhance their products that way. So kind of start to actual, get all of these folks to be actual contributors. Destiny's saying, as the deaf and hard of hearing working group, our plan, it's not in place yet, but to have, you know, maybe courses in ASL to teach a little bit of things like about what Kubernetes is. Yeah, yeah, of course, Rob's saying. Yeah, so just including that kind of cloud native content and have that more available in ASL for the deaf and hard of hearing. Also things like, what else, what else? Write mentorship, absolutely. Yeah, so for deaf and hard of hearing mentorship, or I mean, or hearing people too, I mean, just being able to show that there's so many things on the list. So we're basically just trying to show you know, how people can contribute in various ways with their different skills and experiences and how they can contribute that as well. I think also we have many other people that maybe want to learn a few signs here and there, or how they can pick that up and contribute and kind of benefit to everyone, not just the deaf and hard of hearing group, but you know, just in general. Rob is saying also that it's nice about CNCF having the deaf and hard of hearing working group. We meet monthly, plus we also have a happy hour where we get together. And it's really cool because it's very international. And so, you know, we are teaching each other different signs from different regions. Many times, like we don't have a sign for a specific tech word, just because it hasn't been used, you know, and we're all kind of like isolated. When we get together in that way, we share signs like how we would sign Kubernetes. I mean, obviously, that's a really long word. It's kind of an interesting word to spell. And so, we sign K8 for that. Maybe we have things like an AWS product, like Lambda, for example. We sign Lambda like this because that's what the icon looks like. And so, we're learning from each other in those different ways. We're always talking about data. And so, we found a sign for data is kind of like this from one of the other folks in the group that are international. So, there's a lot of different things that we learn and share with each other in the tech terminology space that we can communicate more efficiently and better, more widespread. And then Destiny said, I would just like to add, yeah, with the working group focusing on showing how this working group is learning, how we can improve, how we can contribute, and just make things advance, being able to give that experience and show people how we can learn from that and learn, we can learn from us and how people are thinking about that in different ways and not normally from external. So, we really just like widespread education in that way. So, it was funny that you kind of brought that up because I was talking about this interview with my wife and we were both kind of wondering is like, how do technical words kind of make it into sign language? And my suspicion was basically the same way it makes it into, you know, kind of English language or spoken languages, sorry, which is, you know, kind of organically, right? And you kind of get to some sort of agreement on, yeah, this means that thing, right? Or you have a project that names itself. But I was going to kind of ask a related question that's a little bit throwaway, but it was, I was curious, it's like, does, do the tech words tend to cross, you know, different sign language boundaries? You know, so do you say Kubernetes in, I mean, Kubernetes is not a great example, just because it's actually a Greek word, right? We're already borrowing it, but something like Linkerd or Lambda, you know, does that bridge across multiple sign languages, or it doesn't get translated? So I would say everybody is different and all the languages, of course, are different. And maybe they're not signing like an English thing, maybe because it's not an English word, there's no sign for it. So it kind of becomes a commonality. So if we're signing data and we get together, doing this data, or they're signing this type of data, it's more of a visual thing, we're kind of looking like, oh, you know what, that looks better than like what we have here, like with, you know, containers or data, like, oh, that makes sense. And so that's kind of how some of it comes to be in spoken language, you know, obviously, it's different, we're very visual. And so I think it depends. But it's amazing to see what like signs come from the different tech words in that language, bringing that kind of all together from seeing how it looks visually, if that makes sense. Yeah, it actually really does. And it's funny, right? I mean, because, you know, we talk about like code being beautiful, right? You know, so in some ways, we think about things being visual, but we also do it by sound too, right? So like as in, we like the way a certain word sounds better than, you know, another word. So what I guess what I'm hearing you say, right, is that the deaf and hard of hearing are just as human as all the rest of the humans in that there's no good answer to questions about how things get created. Because it happens all sorts of different ways, right? All right, cool. So was there anything else you wanted to cover or anything else we should add before we kind of start to close the show out? Rob always asks, how much time do we have?  But kind of a closing thought is what I was really thinking, you know. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say I just want to shout out to CNCF deaf and hard of hearing working group, all of the members there. We get new members, it seems like, every day. If you want to be involved in the CNCF deaf and hard of hearing working group, if you're deaf or you are oral or you're hearing, but you want to connect as an ally, we're here. Come and join our group. We are on Slack. We have a deaf and hard of hearing working group Slack. And I'm just trying to make sure I get the name right here. Yep. So it's deaf and hard of hearing on the Slack channel there. So you're welcome to join. You're always welcome. You know, we're always having more members so we can spread awareness. And Destiny has been an amazing coach chair for me. And she says, oh yeah, you too as well. I've learned so much from Rob. You know, I've been kind of starstruck. So yeah, it's been a great experience. Yeah, if I could speak with my hands, I wouldn't have to worry about the mute button. Sorry, so I just dropped this Slack link. But what was the channel name? Like I said, I can't remember. I think it's... Sorry, Amelia looks distracted. It's because her dogs, she's not necessarily clapping at us. She's clapping at them. So apologies for that. So yeah, I see that posted in the chat the Slack and also the link that was mentioned before. Cool. Well, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. You know, and definitely try to get involved with the working group. You know, we look forward to you know, kind of materials that can help guide future conferences or help guide future projects. Thank you, Catherine, for the name of the channel in the chat. And, you know, we'll, like I said, we're really looking forward to some of that guidance and, you know, whatever we can do to help. We also, you know, I think having more opportunities to support, you know, kind of self-advocacy, things like that is also really useful, right?  You know, I have a lot of experience with food allergies, you know, and they can be, you know, a lot of that kind of infrastructure is really, really useful. And so I really hope it continues. I hope it's supported and I hope it's very, very successful. And, Destiny, did you have anything else you wanted to close with? I really just want to say this experience has been wonderful. Again, the organizers for QCon were so amazing and just, you know, we're kind of keeping that momentum going from learning and educating and then also being able to show, you know, what we're doing and I just want to keep that going. I really want to show what advocacy looks like. I want to show what representation looks like, you know, all of that being included and getting the things that we need. So it's been great working with everyone, Rob, Catherine, etc. The whole working group has been an amazing group of folks. Much love to all of you. Well, thank you all so much and, you know, we'll see you on the internet. Thank you. Yeah, see you around. Thanks so much.