現在的話那就按上桌上按鈕就隨時在我回答兩個問題中間就隨時打開我發言或者是問問題就好了今天都上網了嗎?對要不要先寫一下什麼這個不要再給幾次給幾次這次5月是因為今天5月12號所以先說一下單位我們的進行方式是直接用Q&A意思就是說你們直接就進入這個網站之後直接就開始提出你們的問題不管是英文或是中文或是台灣什麼然後呢我們很有直接在上面就針對已經提出的題目你還可以去按讚也就是這個題目就算我沒有提問題可是太讚了那我們是按照Random來看它次數最高的讚的就會題目先跳出來那跳出來以後唐政委員就會優先回答題目之後再繼續來回答後續的題目一直到問題好奇是不是每一位都已經進去了呢各位學員大家好今天我覺得大家一定是非常興奮又非常期待來參與我們今天這個課程我們今天這個課程是科技政府的未來首先先跟大家說明報告的是這個課程是全新的課程我們去年沒有這個課程當然這個課程設計的生意很深我們知道在新的政府上來以後數位經濟本來就是我們非常重要的政策之一當然數位經濟的情況之下我們政府作為數位治理的核心必然我們的政府必須要先成為一個科技的一個政府那也在這樣的一個情況之下我們的政府基本上破天荒也是這個打破所有的這個辦理特別特別邀請了唐鳳政委委員來入閣所以現在唐鳳政委委員我們一般都叫眾議委員可是我們在對外跟對內我們都還給他一個封號他是我們的Digital Ministry好其實基本上是我們的這次像我們的科技部長很像一個這樣的角色當然我們常說唐鳳政委委員年紀很輕可是事實上他在數位科技的領域裡面其實應該算是大蛇參與非常多科技業的事情一些顧問跟很多的開發的一個領袖的角色那麼在過去他曾經參與了很多的一個科技公司的一些技術總監跟顧問包含的資訊人公司的技術總監經驗民進公司的顧問澳王公司的負責人還有藥物所科技顧問比較有趣的是他還設計了很多港專業的所謂的語言設計師跟實際的一個實作的實作者在參與我們公部門的部分其實他在很早前也有參與我們的行政院的所謂的Open Data的這個program那麼也幫我們的臺灣其實已經很早在進行所謂的虛擬世界的法規的設計所謂的一號Rule-Making the Project裡面它也是一個靈魂的人物那麼在第三部門裡面其實他也很早有我們所謂的臨時政府這樣的一個很重要的一個發想者所以不管在公司部門這一些過程其實他都已經是老早明先我們很久了那我覺得今天這個題目非常有趣這當時要設計題目我還有一點虧全罵所以為什麼要加上個未來呢那事實上大家知道現在的世界科技永遠是一領未來那我常說這今天這個題目也滿有趣的我們說未來的政府一定是要面臨科技那沒有科技領導製的一個政府也沒有就沒有任何的未來所以我們今天非常非常的開心要請到我們唐鳳生委員遊戲規則剛才已經說明了一開始就給大家一個shock所以我們待會的方式就直接開始Q&A那所以唐鳳生委員已經很清楚from now他已經不能夠再用中文來跟大家溝通了已經直接進入到另外一個世界我們接下來就歡迎非常歡迎我們的唐鳳生委員謝謝剛才說的整個理念這個談判是要有你們作為監督這個談判的 agenda這是非常有趣的因為之前沒有科技領導製沒有很容易的方式讓大家決定作為職業議員作為職業議員什麼的就是那些人想要的當然我們有一些技術之前的科技領導製是有可能的讓大家用一些寫文章在這裡用一些文章寫文章等等但是半小時會過了之前我們會有這樣的結果所以科技領導製它不只是做 face to face meetings但是也有更多的能力這是第一最能力的科技領導製讓我們用同一個文章像以前像文章寫文章用更多的能力讓你們不必拒絕你們在提問你們的問題所以我們再繼續看看問題第一是你怎麼解釋一個科技領導政府還有九個人想聽這個問題的答案所以第一作為文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章寫文章是為了發展更好的環境新興建築我們看來是為了工作在 private sector政府的規律我們在政府內和其他人之間進行的行動最後我最重要的一步是 inclusion代表當 digital technology move forward我們必須把所有人都盯在這條路上還有將來世界的不僅僅僅是1% 或10%的人而在任何其他人的經濟和技術中而在任何其他人背後在這條路上的影響這已經是一個目標在過去四個步驟以國民主義的目標在台灣是讓沒有人背後我非常高興在內地的社會主義社會主義女性參與在社會主義生活等等We are all consistently ranked top 1 or the second place in the world.It means that we pay a lot of attention inclusion.But the actual people who do inclusion who work best in Taiwan is what we call the Non-governmental organizations.The NGOs know what people in their locality, in their region look forward for the digital enablement.And so on.So, this digit plus has four different areas.而最重要的就是這是一種方式非常大地分營一種ふう的方式這個方式在公務、市場、社會等方面為所有的各系域和其他貨品資源這就是要求讓各方面的新興建造這包括同樣的而且這當然也是很多的資源我們現在進入了這個叫做前往的資料計劃在過去的幾個月內在議題上在這幾個月內所以這就是資料計劃的部分如果您在我們在資料計劃的位置您歡迎來去 visitinfra.pedas.taiwan這位是關於EY, the Executive UN Homepage, if you go to the Executive UN Homepageand click the first link, which is the infrastructure plan,there will be a red button that says the frequently asked questions.If you click that, you get into the infra page, the FAQ pagewhich is one of the work that I've worked with the administration.So not just you can look at all the five including the digital infrastructurethere is also all sorts of questions that people ask us all the timewhether it is necessary to use special budgetwhether it is to rush through a black boxwhether we will leave debts to our descendants and so onand all those frequently asked questionswe ask all the ministries to come up with reasonable answersso welcome new questions so that this is a platform for dialoguefor the general publicso this is infrastructure part of the developmentnow as part of the digital plus planwe explicitly say to the private sectorthat we know that you are better than the governmentto do innovation that looking forward to the futuresome of those private sector companies are already creating the futureis just not evenly distributed to the rest of the worldbut they are at the edge of the futureso we say that we are now not really regulatingor telling the private sector what to dowe still do our regulatory workbut the value behind the regulatory workis to facilitate you to sit downand look at what kind of experiments the private sector is doingand for this we have the new plan calledthe Financial Technology Experimentation Actso I can only speakEnglishbut there is no rulethis is I can't write Chineseso yeahso this is what we call the Fintech experimentand there is a lawthat we just passed from the executiveand are now in the hands of the legislatorsthe whole idea of so-called Fintech experimentsis so that people who are in the grey areawhere is not so sure that whether this regulation applies or notthey can declare themselves to the financial committeesayingyou knowI'm not yet raising the full capitalto be a financial playerand I have this ideawhich may or may not run into this regulatory burdensbut I understand that the governmentfor government to change the regulationit is a very thorough processit requires a lot of consensusfrom the societyand it requires at least 60 daysof public consultation nowso instead of sayingthis must changewe negotiate sayingnow the financial committeethe regulatory bodypromisenot to suethis startupover violating certain regulationsthey can't file their lawscertain regulationsin the next six monthsin exchangethe startup promise to open upthe process of its experimentto this independent review boardso people can discusswhether this is a good idea or notand they may adjustthe skill of their experimentationor extend it after six monthsfor another six monthsbut after at most 12 monthsthe independent panelwill make a decisionwhether these regulations really should changeis a good experimentor whether the experiment has failedand everybody sees that it's not a good ideato adjust those regulationsbut one way or anotherthe whole society winsbecause if we don't have this sandboxfor gray area operatorssome of them go aheadand just rush through anywayin the black marketwe see this with a lot of companiesthey just go ahead and violatethe regulationsso in this kind of sandboxinstead of working against innovatorswe're now working alongsideinnovators and working withthe whole society to seewhether it's a good idea or notso if this is a good ideafor another six monthsboth sideshave some homework to dothe innovator can take six monthsto raise sufficient capitalto become a financial operatoror work with one of the existingfinancial operatorsfor the regulatorswe can now run throughthis two months consultation periodfor the regulation that does need to be changedand also gather more stakeholder inputin order to refinethe regulation textso that this will be good law going forwardso all this adjustment periodfor the six monthsinsures that the new operatorwill now contributeas a legal operatorin the white marketnot the black marketfor the society going forwardwhile the regulatorsstop playingprophets that they don't have toforecast the future eight yearsfrom now by ourselvesinstead we work with innovatorsto do this workso this is the innovation part of the digitalized planand in a similar fashionthe inclusion partof this non-governmental organizationsfor example through open datawe work with this GCAAthere is thisprojectthat uses the environmentalprotection agency's databut it is a crowdsourcedcampaignthat lists not onlythe raw data that was collectedby the environmental protection agencyof all those air pollutionsources from the industryand maybe from the trafficand maybe from otherweather incoming sourcesso the whole ideais that people can have a visualidea of what kindof air pollution producing companiesare near their placesand their currentmonitoringand then also if youhave some first-hand experienceof some violations that are not shown herea very easy way for youto report and requirethe environmental protection agencyto look into itso this isobviously a non-profit organizationin charge of this workand it is funded not bythe companies but by crowdfundingeverybody donate a little bitof money and timein order to make surethat there is a consistent flowof how to managethe air pollution issue hereinside oneso this is ledby this NGOby this backed by the governmentin the same sense the government doesn't tryto do everything the NGOs can doinstead we worknot against MPOsbut alongside MPOsproviding the environmental datathe infrastructure or the supportingthings that they requirefor them to lead a chargefor the civil society to take a lookat the air pollution issueso this is the inclusion partas you can see this is exactly the same spiritas we are working with the private sectorfor the innovation partso finally for the governance partand this is my main workworking with the national development councilto do a digital serviceupgradefor the policy making processwe as public servantsare doing day-to-daythere are some very technologicallysounding trends herebut the whole ideaof why we are doing thisisto reducethose repetitivenon-useful workthat the public servants do every daythe whole point is that we can go homeearlierwe can instead of working until9 or 10 to fill in somerepetitivesystems or paper formsor running with a envelopecontaining somepublic documents from one unit or the otherwe reduce this kind of repetitive workthat doesn't require human judgmentwith digital servicesso that we can't just go homeearlierand spend more timewith our families or our hobbiesso the whole point hereis to have a KPIthat is negativerightthe lessservice you're requiredto do somethingthe betterthe less units that you need to contactin order to complete somethingthe betterthe less cash the budget you need to spendduplicated servicesthe betterall these kind of KPIare negative KPIit's important becauseotherwise our digital infrastructurewill look exactly like ourorganizational structurebut that's not very efficientnor is it very humaneso the whole point is to movefrom the so-called e-governmentjust about compliance or efficiencythrough transparencyand opennessand to establish constituent valuemeaning that the innovatorsget some valuethat they're looking forthe nonprofit organizationsget some value that they're looking forand we as the governmentjust open any datain order departmentsthat can aid thosenon-governmental channelsto increase constituent valueand this is basically where we're atat the momentwe're pretty good at open data nowwe're I think the second year nowthe world's top countryin terms of the open knowledgeopen data indexbut we're not yet fully digitalnot to mention smartI mean we like to say that we're a smartgovernment or something but we're waybut there's still some distancefrom being a full smart governmentso at the momentI'm focusing on the open partand we're startingwith some trialsor some small-scale experimentsthat goes all the way to datathe central portfolio digitalto enable constituent valuebut the idea is to make surethat all the ministries can work togetherin a way that we call the open service modelso that people don't have toreplicatetheir existing servicesas the old e-government modelso this is my takeon the idea of a digital governmentusing the government 2015 modelrightso that's the answer to the first questionI spent a lot of timehoping that there will be more questionsso let's seeif there isso after enteringthe cabinetwhat are the differencesthat youperceivedfrom the impressionsthat I had before enteringthe governmentas the moderators saida consultant to the nationalconsole and to the vtaiwanrulemaking assistantso I had some knowledgegoing into the governmentbut after going in as a ministerwhat kind of differences do I realizeand what are the prioritiesfor the taiwan governmentto handle and howwhat is the methodologyso this is a little bit of a trick questionbecause it's actually three questionsin any caseseven people want to hear about the answerthree questionsso just let meget out of thisso the first questionis that as a consultantlike many what we callthe enterprise management consultantsusually when people ask usabout workflow reformand things like thisthere is an underlying assumptionthat people don't usually citebut it's an underlying assumptionwhen people look for consultants like usit's that the people insidethe system are afraidto take risks to changetheir workflowwhich is why we need outside consultantsto redo this workflow designand to empowerthe people already in the systembecause they're afraid of taking risksthis is the same as in any enterpriseor non-profit organizationso I wasgoing into the cabinet expectingto meet public servantsvery afraid of riskthat are not willing to take risksbut I was surprisedI was wrongeverybody, all the public servantsthat I met as a digital ministerare very creativeand not afraid of taking risksthey propose all sort of very good ideasand are not afraidof going throughunit boundaries to talk with meor talk with their supervisorsand why is thatbecause as the digital ministergoing inI said to everybody who worked with mesaying thatI am the public servant of public servantssoI will notI will never give you any direct commandsyou will never have to obey my commandsall my suggestions are just thatsuggestionsand for people who choose to work with mewe have like 15volunteering stafffor people who work with meany idea they proposeif those turn out to be bad ideasthat the publicthings are you knownot worse the taxpayers moneyI will take all the blameand if they happen to be good ideasyou will get the creditso this is actuallythe reverseof many public servantsexperiencefor many public servantsthey propose some good ideathe elected officials get all the creditand if they happen to get some blamethe media will somehow findthe public servant and they takeall the blameso of course in this kind of environmentnobody will want to innovateor take risksbecause there is no reward to this riskit is guaranteedzero reward and guaranteedsome riskso after going inso called servant style leadershipsaying I willyou know just underwrite everythingand I will take all the risksand then you takepretty much some of the creditnot all of the credit of coursethe premier the president will of coursewant some credit but you will getyour due share of creditso in this kind of environmentI was very surprised to findthat everyone who work with mebecome very creative and not afraid of taking riskso this is the answer to the first questionthe second questionis that what is the prioritytaskthat the Taiwan governmentneed to setthe agenda settingthis is a very big questionin my opinionand notwithstandingthe current infrastructure planI think we need an infrastructureto talk with peopleto interface with the general publicbecause it wasperceived at the momentthat the government's distancewith the people is kind of farand a non-governmental organizationis close to the peopleand even many of this private sectorcompanies are positioning themselvesas closer to the peopleand people are organizing themselvesonline and offlineregionally and also on the internetand also internationallyand they are also feeling very closeto each otherbecause as if just the public sectoris distancing ourselves from everybody elsebut it wasn't like thatbefore the internetbefore the digitalcommunication infrastructure revolutionit used to be that this distancewhile still pretty farwas actually the closest distanceof people to reachpolicy makersif the administration doesn'tyou know do public hearings and so onthere is nothing in alternativeto this kind of consultationof course people can talkto their regional representativestheir village elderstheir elected townshipsleader of townshipsand mayors andthe parliament and so onall the way to the elected officialsand then to the administrationbut any messageif you have like five intermediariesany message gets droppedor gets substitutedwhat the intermediate wantthe next stop to hereinstead of the original messageso when the administrationrights public hearing before the internetit was actually a pretty gooddistance for people to directly voiceand talk with the relevant public servantsit's just after the internet revolutionpeople selling has a wayto organize themselvesnot waiting for the medianot waiting for theelected representativesnot waiting for their mayorseven they just formtheir ad hoc groupsthey form their MPOsthey form their startupsthey do social enterprisesthat are very efficient at organizationand gathering everybody's opinionand listening to each otherand now they sayyou know public hearing is not a good way to listen to peoplethis has not actually changedit's just people's distance to where themselveshas changed to shortenedso this distance is not perceived as farit wasn't actuallyfarder than beforeso i think thisperception is the most important taskwe need tostay to peopleto let people know that we understandthere has been a deficiencyin mutual trustbecause the longer the distancethe more room for rumors to growfor distrust to growand we understand there isnot an amount of distrustand because trust is mutualsomebody has to walkfirst a little bittoward the other partynot expecting any trust in returnat firstand we can't ask the civil societyand the citizen to trust us blindlyso instead we need to trustthe people firsteven the people doesn't trust usas much yetso what do i mean concretelyi mean when we hearyou know public consultationor a public q and a systemor any public communicationor open datasome of us may have someassociations in our mindsfor example populismfor exampleinappropriate representationor for example mobmentalityor there is a lot ofnegative words when we hearopen data public informationor open consultationthere is some very negativeassociation that stemfrom the days of public hearingsin the pre-internet modelbut if we clear all thisaway from our mindsit will blank pageand we saywe admit thatwe are just doing this businessof governancesome of our work is not yet that goodwe welcome contributionfrom everybody in order to makeus feel better and any energywhether it's positive or negativeenergy is energyso we can use themusefully and increase our own workif we position ourselves like thiswe are basically sayingwe trust peoplewe will not abuse the powerthat we are sharing with the peoplefor a generous settingand only with this kind of trustcan we get people whosomehow want to trust us a little bit moreto collaborateand if people stilldoesn't trust us it's finesomebody has to move firstI think this is one of the most pressingimportant issuesas for methodologiesthere's many methodologiesand for all kinds of different casesit requires differenttechnologiessometimes it is just aboutopen data or publicinformationsometimes it is abouta more regular wayof consultationfor example this is the join platformthe join platform is the baselineof participationand opennessI mean baseline sayingthis is hundredsliterally of petitionsat the moment that's ongoingthere is a petitionabout improving the experienceof people filing inour tax returnsthose tax return softwareis the prime exampleof the e-government erasoftwareit's very compliantit's very efficientif you use your electronicPKI card you can getall your filings, returns and everythinginto this tax return softwarethe formula for youvery efficientlyit is actually one of the prime examplesof good e-government applicationsbut it is not very openand this meansfirst that the people who specializein this servicein its technological sideis not well-dustin the idea of user experienceso when people use a Mac computerto complete your tax returnsit takes average5x as much timeas a windows userto file their tax returnsand for many people this is not accessiblebecause they are used tomac completing thingsat least as fast as windowsbut this is like the discriminationto many of themand even for windows usersthe interface sometimes looks like garbled charactersbecause it's still usingso-called big 5 encodingand so they have to adjustthe settingsand finally the whole movementis very much like feeling in paperformsso even though it is actually much more efficientit still leaves a kind of badpasteafter filingall the steps just like afterfiling all those paperformsand this is all about sentimentall about Kimochithis is not about functionalaspects of the systemand of course people are alreadyon a very low Kimochi statewhen filing our tax returnsso anything that's in the softwarethat lowers people's emotional statewill be perceived as doubleor even tripleso for people who can't connectto the mainframe computerfor about 8 hours in the first dayof tax returntheir negative emotion amplifiedby maybe a hundred timesand so they went ontothe petition platformsaying this is not accessiblesolet's take a lookat the actualideathere's a huge amount of idealook at itif I search forexplosionI thinkI can find it somehowsothe tax filing softwareis explosivelydifficult to useand as we can seethere is not much actual contentin the petitionit is mostly just an expressionof angerand ifif we stop hereif we use the old public hearing modelif we just collect this opinionthere is not much that we can dobased on just the sentimentbecause it is entirelya feeling stage thingreally about factsor about ideas that we can usebut because on thisjoin platformthere is a collaborationas we can seethree different unitsjoinedtogether to respondso if wethought through dateyou can seethatafter a fewinputfor maybe 20 hoursor less than 20 hoursthere's a huge amount of peoplesharing their feelingsI feel it's actually greatI feel it's badI feel it's oldit's the onesomebodyhappened to reply hereso I have this habitof just looking at the google search resultof all the new pagesthat mentions my nameI check it every 10 minutes or sowhen anyone mentions me by nameon any public forumI just get summonedinto the public forumand replycountry to popular beliefI'm not the science and technologyministerI'm the digital ministerand I talked with that participationofficerof theminister of financefor all the ministriesthe administrationwe have a participation officerwho like the media officerwho talk with the mediaor the parliamentary officerwho talk with the members of the parliamentthe participation officerstalk with the general publicthrough channels like thislike the petition platformso I said okay our POis aware of thisand lo and beholdour POnot even 24 hoursis a weekendsaying okaywe heard youand we thank you for providingyour personal experienceand so onand then we will convenea participation officer collaborative meetingand then here is what we knowat the moment but it is actuallyquite unclear so why don't youshare some veryspecific gripes you havewith the system and we will talkwith the proposerand suddenly the wholethe wind changedpeople are askingokay how do we get intothis collaborative meetingand then how can weparticipateand then people starttelling and asking for thescreenshot for each of thosetext filing return which theydid get to this proposal todayand then they startedorganizing hackathonsby themselvesoutside of the governmentto collect all the designers inputthey will file text returns togetherand then capture all the pointsin which they see thatcan be improved and so onso this is a new kindofrelationship between the governing bodyand the people who petitioninstead of seeing themas people on the street who are against uswe see them as collaboratorsas you knowlet's just find out what went wrongwhat could be improvedand next year let's do itbetter togetherso all this takesis for a ministryfor a participation officerto trust the peopleto not see them aspopularism or angeror whateverthey just said okay herelet's improve it togetherso this is I thinkone of the good examplesofthe methodologythat we're takingwe takethe people'spetitions very seriouslywe meet with them face-to-facewe record the face-to-face meetingsand release the transcriptsso that everybody who petitionwith the petitioner can all followthrough the whole idea ofconverging on possible solutionsand we commit ourselvesto implement the solutionthis convergence meetingwe held every week, every Fridayfor four hours on onepetition topic or onepropose topicand every Mondayat my meeting with the premierand other ministrieswithout portfolio in our secretary generalI would brief them on the topicthat we talked about the previous Fridayso that all the ministerswithout portfoliothe premier gets awarethat hey we're now doing thiswith collaboration with the general publicand so they can setthe tone of communicationthey can talk with the ministerwith the ministry of how they can collaborateand help and most importantlythey give what we call the binding powerfor this consensusto move forwardbecause I'm not in charge of any ministryI cannot get the binding powerthe only promise I can givethe people who participatethe participatory office meetingis that I will explain to the premierand all my colleaguesthat they understand where we are atbut the final decisionsalways made by the premierso this is the current methodologyhow to developa user-friendly e-systemto caring the elderlynow there is astander answer to this form of questionis that you have to develop itwith the elderlyok so this is what we calluser-centric designand it's not just a sloganit's not just a mottoit's a methodology that saysif you design a system with its userseven though you may getsomething wrong at firstit's guaranteedthat people know that you're therethey can talk directly with youif you find something wrong with their experienceand you can improvethe actual experience of the usersis that the representatives of the userswere not themselvesyet the elders that needs caringbut of coursehow to do public consultations with the eldersis actually a hot problembecause many of them are sufferingfrom mobility issuesmany of them don't have the habitof using a mobile phoneto record their messagesor watch video streamsinstead of asking them to comewe need to bring our technologieswe need to bring our technologiesto the eldersso they just do whatever they're doingat the momentbut we need to bringthose smart measurement deviceswe need to bringa good recording devicesfor field studywe need to work withesnographiesto work as maybe one of the care workersbut still recordingand so onso that we have realin the field dataand real in the field communication channelwith those usersif and when we have this kind ofin-place communication channeland the elders feel that they can speakor touse other ways to let people knowthat the service fits their needs or notwhen the feedback cycleis symmetricmeaning that the information or the serviceprovideis equal in bandwidthwith the feedback that we cancollect from the peoplethat we can listen to those millions of eldersthen we have a wayto work with them as partnerseven though they may not be that firstin using keyboard and mousethat doesn't matterrightso internationallythere is a lot of waysto facilitate communication like thatwith augmented realityand smart bondsand sensing devicesand things as datathis kind of IoT systemsbut all those are just jargonsif there is no specific use caselike the tax filingservice design use casethat we can walk somebody intowhich is whywe are now looking in the digital governmenttoworkwithin thosedifferent ministriesand aided bythe NDCand alsoPedispublic digital innovation spacefor the service designtry to reformwhat we have at the momentand then establish this kindof bi-directional communication channelwith existing programsin each ministryso this is the basic ideahow do i thinkabout the unreasonablespeechby the trollson the internetwhat are the ideaof the mediaas a agenda setting powerto work governmental workso again this is actually two questionsbut anywaythe trollsthe trolls on the internetas some of you may knowmy hobby my pastimethe thing that i do for funis to hug the trollstrollhuggingit is my hobbyand rightif you search for a trollhuggingor a trollhuggingthe first google hitis ablog that i wrotein 2009that says to the worldthat my hobby is trollhuggingso and i've developed this hobbyfor many many yearsis just by that time i get towrite about itso i have more than ten yearsof hobbyistexercise as a trollhuggerso what is trollhuggingthe trollhuggingis very simpleto explainfor people who talk on the internetit is impossible for ussee the facial micro expressionsof the people who saw our wordsor listen to our videoit is still very much liketelevision in this wayin that all the feedback channelsare mostly just emojiand text that does the twomain feedback channelsso while we can use 4kyou can use VRto record our messagethe feedback channel like the slide hereit is actually pretty plainwho just want to still pay attention to your facesyour micro expressionsto make sure thatwhat i'm talking about is notboredor very mundaneto youbut this kind of realtime feedbackwe don't have that on the internetso it is impossiblefor a person to tellwhether their message is beingembraced with excitementor whether withentralling a very depressingor attacking attentionmostly they just knowhow much attention they getwhether it is a positiveattention or negative attentionthe payload of the attentionis actually very blur on the internetso for people who crave attentionfor people who don't havea very goodactive social relationshipin their daily livesmaybe nobody gives them a hugin their real lifethey will look for the hugon the internet insteadso they post somethingbut thenthey found in places like twitterand facebook which is designedfor social mediais not designed for rational discussionso they found thatif they type some very authenticlike their life experiencenobody pays them much attentionbut if they become a trollthat is to saythey post some very viciousvery divisivevery angry messagea lot of people comeand give them attentionthat they want, that they cravebut it is impossibleto develop long term relationshipwith people who cheersfor vicious sentimentthey are really just like a flash crowdthey come here and they dispersethere is no long term relationshipbut people who become trollsthe next morningthey still feeling very emptybecause there is no long term relationshipto sustain their need for socialinteractionso they need to post another messageagain even more viciousattracting even more peoplebut still none of them becoming friendsand the next dayand then the next dayso by the time that we see those peoplewith too much time on their handsthey dedicate so muchto this kind of repetitive behaviorso they don't even have the experienceto have those day to dayrelationship with people around themit's a reinforcing lookso my wayof working with these prosis to give them the real hugthat they needof course it doesn't really meanthat I look at their IP addressand find their homesand really physically give them a hugand I must be clearthat I don't have the authorityto do thisbut I try to give them a hugwhich meansif I look at the 10 poststhat they poston those very viciousmaterialI try to look at just oneor two sentencesmaybe three wordsmaybe four words within this very vicious postI ignore everything elseconcentrateon the constructive utterancethe core that was still leftbehind all those vicious stressingsand communicatevery authenticallytaking them very seriouslyand replying as much as I canto those parts that are constructiveand suddenlythe people who come in to cheerthis personal attack or whateverthey see that first I'm willing to developa back and forthand secondthat I'm not immuneto those personal attacksI'm not attacked by themit's uselessand so they can't waste my timeby spending their time on these thingsbut if they do spend their timeon the part that are constructivethey get my full attentionif they spend one minuteon composing the constructive partI spend a minute responding to itso they learn sayingok so the only way to get the attentionthat we cravethe long term relationship that we craveis to get constructive feedbackand so after a few roundsthe people who do personal attacksseverally stopped screamingthey started toorganize among themselvesto propose useful constructive ideasand then by the timethat they consolidated on a consensusthat are actually usefulI would then refer them toany of those ministries sayingok now you can work togetherso it's not saying thatall the petitioners are trollsmany of the petitioners are very reasonableit's just that they don't trust the government enoughso after a few roundsof this communicationthey now learn that okso whether we are reasonable or notit doesn't really matterthe only thing that matters is whether we can geta constructive relationship out of this exchangefor the second questionit's actuallya very difficult questionbecause mediais a term that is so overloadedthat there is a good definition nowtechnicallywhat you're writingthis is also mediabecause anything that mediatescommunication between two or more peopleis technically mediaand when people may say mainstream mediait is actually very trickybecause many mainstream mediain printthey don't have that much presence onlineand for the manymainstream online mediathey don't even have a paper presenceso again the mainstream has already forkedand even on the online systemthere is media thatprimarily draw their sourceson second hand reportingfrom the crowdor even third hand reportingwhich is wikipediathat are strictly third handreportingbecause they have to cite othersecond hand media sourcesso with all those different stratait is very difficult to answer this questionpreciselybut i would then quotemcluhan who said wheneveryou hate the mediadon't hate the media be the mediaso the idea is thatif there is some aspectof the media that you don't likenow there virtually costsnothing to startyour own studioanyone with a mobile phonecan start livestreaming instantlyanyone with a mobilecomputer or laptopcan start churning outposts and blogsand curating contentsso there is virtually nothreshold in becoming a media nowadaysso there is no excusefor the government sayingyou know the media hates usthey get our message wrongwhen it costs almost nothingto start our ownmediaand so by mediatechnically any way to interactwith peopleso i would say that the q&a that we didorlike this oneor the pedis websitewhere we talk about all the workthat we do and publishjust like any investigativereporterall the meetingsin trackpedis twyou can see all the meetingsthat i chairyou can see all the topicsall the interviews that i gaveall the collaborative meetingsall the speechesall the visitseven my diplomatic meetingswith the koreansback in aprilall the meetingswith the koreansand so the principle herewhere we call radical transparencyis that we keep a very detailedrecord and then we askpeople who participateto give them ten daysor ten working daysif they are public servantsto collaborative editthis transcriptand then we publish the transcriptthat everybody agrees onjust sometimes we attend a meetingwith a lot of things to sayso that we don't properly listenso just by going backto the transcript at nightand then going through what everybody else has saidit gives us a second chanceto look at what people have saidand second it gives uspeople some kind of protectionbecause they will not be afraidof speaking their mindalways knowing that we can change itwith some words that are less offensiveto find this transcriptso it creates a environment of mutual protectionso in this kind ofradical transparencythere is no way that I can bequoted out of contextbecause wheneverany media says anything wrongabout meI can just bookmark this thingand then paste to theircommentary board sayingwell it wasn't what I saidthis is what I saidand then for the mediawho work with methey also find this way of reportingextremely easybecause every journalisthas many many different thingsto take care of in a single dayand so after an eventafter an interview because they havethis kind of transcriptall they need to do is editorialcurational workthe work that any good journalist spends time onthey have all the raw materialwhich are retelling to the peopleand they will not be constrainedby the material that they rememberin their minds because it's all therein writingso the mediathe downstream mediathe media people who work with mealso very much enjoy this formatbecause it makes their work easierthey can spend more time with their familiesalsoso far so goodand so this is another mediawe have been doingand of course we alsorecord our videoand then we also make our own filmhas anyone seen this videoif you have seen this videocan you raise your handok onealright somaybe we can play the videothey tell me that there is soundin this environmentso maybe we can give it a trydigital infrastructurefor the broadbandhereto work wellso while we are waiting for itto buffer in everythingno it's just fineit's just fine oh too badlet's see if i have itlocallyit seems that i don'toh well too bad this happensso yeahif you look for theopen government hot potit is a very short filmthat the fetus teamkind of introduce usto the general public during the lunarnew yearand we are now just todayworking on thesubsequentepisode to this open governmenthot potwe are now working onthe open government shawemashawema is a kind of foodthat there was a rumorof this is a kind of animalthat just grows and so onand people can find it in the night marketand then wejust today recorded aopen government shawemafilm that tried to explainwhat happens when 5000 of peoplebelieves the shawemais a kind of animaland creates a petitionand stop torturing animalsand how the open government systemis going toget through theactual factsinstead of just rumorsso what i'm saying is thatwe're kind of our own studioand whatever there isthis kind of topics happeningin the society that threatensto underminethe democratic foundationof collaborativefact checking or fact fightingwe develop some methodologiesto work with itand then try to set the termsof our own communicationof course we still welcome the media's helpin finding our flawscriticizing usproviding us constructive feedbackbut the point is that we should notrely on media to send our messagewe need to become our own mediaand send our own messageso this is a very similar questionhow to permit the health systemin Taiwanis that there isvery much all health systemin Taiwan are now the healththere is very few hospitalsthat does not atleastuse the health insurance cardor the health insurance systemto work with their patientsand so onso the promotion i got from this questionand i may be wrongbut i got the idea it's not just those basichealth care systemsbut more advanced form of caringwhat we call the long term caringas the other person has already askedwho work proactivelynot just waitingfor people to get sickand get to the hospital and reportwhat they have donebut instead know in advancethat they are about to get sickor that they need some preventative actionor they need some health consultationand so for this we needagain a digital infrastructureand this is not because of the billwe do need a digital infrastructurefor thisbecause for many of thosesensor biometric datayou can't just uselora or use some very low bandwidthtransmissionit does require a handband with transmissionso for example in publichealth placesin many of those public clinicsin the rural Taiwanthere still stuck withADSL lines with 500Ktransmission modewhich means there is no waythey can use skypeor any of those video conferencingto do remote diagnosisthat also means that if they have x-rayor other high quality image scansit takes a weekto transmit all of those datato a processing labin some other larger hospitaland so this is notsensible at allotherwise it's actually fasterfor them to hirea driver and put some USBdisk and just drive to thoselarger cities so the wholepoint is that the electronicinfrastructure should make thingseasier and quicker it shouldn'tactually put a burdenon the whole workflow for peopleto wait for the slowest partso the rural areashealth care system bandwidthis one of the mostimportant thing in the inclusion partin the digital infrastructurespecial budgetand the other part isof course a publiclyaccessible Wi-Fi systemfor many different citiesthey have their own systemthere is the TPE free systemthe Tainan free systemthe Taoyuan MRT systemthere's many Wi-Fi systemsbut before this yearthere's no way to usethe same SSIDthe same login to Romeacross all those different citysystems which means that for thedevice manufacturers of those e-healthsystems they have to collaboratewith all those local citysystems in order to log inand also there's many blind spotsthat are just betweentwo counties and so onwhere there is no coveragefor 4G or for outside oneand we think of coursethe distributorthe artist Wu Zhongxianfor reminding us thatalong the Taiwan high speed railsthere are many suchblind spotsand there's noiTaiwan service in many of thoserural areasso it's a concretedelirablejust before this Septemberthe World Congress of Information Technologywill make the entire THSRcounties and cities that it pass throughand most of the Taiwanthey will now use the same SSIDand the same iTaiwan public Wi-Fisystem and sothis is one of the examples that it doesrequire the government to get into say that iTaiwanhospital is now in thecommon shared poolof procurementGongkong Saikou if you don't put it thereit is very difficultfor a local government tosecure the funding that they needto maintain such hotspotsmaybe after one mayor gets electedthey put some spotsbut then it gets out of servicebut because now it's in the common shared poolof procurementit can now be a long-running serviceand this is just a basicunderline layerthere's many other layersthere's the security layerthere's the communication layerthere's the protocol layer and so oninstead of telling the industry where to gowe will listen to the industry'svoicesand then try to work withthe regional government so that we canas efficiently as possibleget the common-basedstandards that everybody can theninnovate on top of itmake government smartthis is a very smart questionrightyeahas i said this is actuallya pretty well thought outschema by the NDC folkswe needthiswhich is the commonprocessing infrastructurethe department of cybersecuritynow headedby the director generalthat was previouslythe MIS director at the NDChe's now workingwith the underlying protocolsso that we can trustthe cybersecurity standardsof all those regional communicationsand then the V-Taiwan platformthat the previousminister at the Japanese side establishedI'm still in chargeof running the platformit used to be that I was the consultantthe technological consultantand she was the ministernow I'm the minister and she's my legal consultantso it's actuallya very symmetricrelationship and wepushed throughfor example the fintech lawsand some part of the new company lawfollowing the closely held companiesthat we're working togetherand comingnext month maybewe will have the amountvehicles that is to saythe drones basicallyand also autonomous carsin the futureand also sharing economy and things like thatall will pass through the V-Taiwan consultation processsoall thisis taken care of by other projectsand the digital government plancan then establishbased on these very firm standardsthe APIdomain standardsso that for transportthere is now what we call the PTXthe transport exchangefor environment there is now the CDXand so on so for all those data exchange formatswe try tomake them part of the decision making processit used to bethat all the decision making withina certain unit or certain ministrydoes go to thosedatabase processbut when the time it reaches the ministerand reaches us reaches the peoplein the administrationall those data get convertedthey used to be very different formatsbut they all get converted to the same formatthe powerpoint formatso when we receive thoseideas and proposals and so onthey are in PDF or in powerpoint formatthere is no way for us tointeractively check the modelsthat it was used to generatethose forecasts and those policiesand if we askok what if we change this parameterthen the people there will have to bring it backto the calculatorsand policymakersand after a week we will get the iterationit is very slowcompared to what we can dowith interactive data processingso one of the workthat I am doing at the momentis to make sure that when making decisionsthe premier, the ministerssee exactly the samescreen as the people who makethe ground decisions and observationsso we can see thatwith the vegetable processthat I showed youa couple minutes agoand thenso this is the vegetablepricesmodelit used to be that all these arecontrolled and shownby different like the weatherthe committee of agriculturethe local governmentsand so onbut now we collaborateand put them on exactly the same websiteand then we publish thisdecision making informationto everybody who is involvedin growing vegetablesjust everybodyso the whole point is thatbecause this data basedevidence based modelis now the decision making processas well as the communication processit is the same datathat goes outside and the same datathat goes inside the reporting chainthere will bemuch more incentivefor people to streamlinethe data model herebecause it directly affectsthe decision makerstheir budgetif we don't have this connecting systemto the administrationand to the decision makerspeople may actually get more rewardjust working on better powerpointtemplate or somethingso that the whole point of being data basedis to connect those datato the decision making processand of course this is also very importantto make sure that all those dataare generated in a consistent mannerpublic servantsso all this is requiredbefore we can even thinkabout a smart governmentthis are like the nervous systemof the governmentbefore it grows to reachor the parts before it is connectedthere is nothing on whichthat we can grow a smart government ofso this is what I am concentratingat the moment and hopefullyafter a couple of yearswe can talk about how to be smartlike adolescentswhen people are going through puritywhen people are about 12 years old30 years old12 years old or 13 years oldthe nervous system in our brainstarts to rewireto drop the useless connectionsthat are no longer connectedto the adult life aheadto consolidate the memoriesso that people have a good identityof oneself and also a good relationshipwith people and so onI would say that our infrastructuresystem in the digital governmentis now undergoing this kindof shufflingso you will see more and moreservices beingconsolidatedand the consolidation doesn't really meanthat the back enddisappear it doesn't disappearbut you learn to play wellwith other back end systemsand you will see many front endsbeing dropped altogetherinsolidated into those experienceddesigned servicesand these are the four servicesthat we will start as a pilotto do this kind ofservice-based designso this is aconcrete answerof how to make the government smartand this is the AFABI websitesothis is a very frequentlyasked questionisthe citydoesn't get the resourcedoes it mean that they are notforward lookingsoactuallythis is one of the frequently asked questionsso let's just look at our Q&AI thinkone of theFAQslet's go to infra.pdc.twsopretty much all of the digital infrastructureplan are actuallyglobalit's not just even one cityor one islandfor many of the open contentopen standard webin the digital infrastructure webor the artificial intelligence infrastructureis actually shared with the worldit doesn't matter where you areon the earth or even outside of the earthyou get to enjoythe open contentof the 4K pipelineof the 3D model of many of Taiwan's placesand so onso this is not the location dependentand thenof course there are peoplewho still thinkthat there areso called $0 clubthat doesn't get anythingso this is notactually trueaccording to this Q&Athe whole ideaof the forward lookinginfrastructure planis to make surethat people who don't getyou know in one of thoseinfrastructure based planscan propose their own budgetin the fifth pocket of the digitalof the whole infrastructure planthat would be the urbanrural part of the infrastructure planso this is one concreteanswersaying thatit is impossible for a countyor a city to get $0because we dedicate one partof the pocket to the citiesor counties that do requiresome of their own projects being doneand thenof coursethe other answer is thatsome places like Taipei citydoes not propose this many projectsbecause from many of thefocus in the infrastructure projectthey really already has pretty good infrastructureso of courseit doesn't really meanthat it's in a so called $0 clubbut ratherthat they alreadyhave the infrastructure to workwith the forward lookingpolicies that we do as partof our regular workthe whole point of the infrastructure planis to get the regionsthat doesn't meet the basicminimum infrastructure standardsthose with computers still runningwindows ME or windows 3.1and pass even the basic cybersecuritystandards which are ripefor people who doseveral attacks or whateverto upgrade them so that they meetthe baseline standardsof what we think of as infrastructureand if some cities or countiesalready enjoy this kind of infrastructureor even moreof course there is very littlein those pockets for thembecause they are now enjoyingthe regular policy workbut we know the gapbetween the planning and implementationis large in the application of technologyhow do you close this gapin Taiwanthere is no possibilityto plansomething that can be implementedexactly as plannedthe only wayto do something exactlyas you think about is to do everythingyourselfand there is very little thingthat you can do this waybut for all kind of planningwhat we need to do is actuallyit's like a whirlpoolit's like a circleif we plan too muchtoo farand allocate all the budget at onceit's possible that worldwill have changedwhen 4 years or 6 years down the roadall this kind of constructionis not actually neededwhich is why for the infrastructurefor looking planthe whole budgetin a way that is renewed every 2 yearsand they are still writtenfor every single project to adjustor to get dropped altogetheror for new projects to emergewithin the same pocket of moneyand this is true from the initial planningthe infrastructure planwas planned like thatit's a fact that was kind offorgotten by manylegislatorsthe whole plan was the 8 year planit's just one special budget proposalbut every single projectis controlled and readjustedevery couple yearsso the idea againis about building a feedback circlewhen we have a technologyinstead of mandating everybodyto adopt the technology at oncewe let the early adopter adopt itsometimes running against the lawwe set up sandboxesexperimental protocolsso that they can report to usto use this kind of new technologyand once we have this field reportwe then spread the technologybased on what the society wantsfrom this technologyout of public consultationstakeholder experiencesso if all the stakeholders say nowok this is what we want out of this technologythen the governmentadopt this technologyas a societal standardbut from the initial early adoptersto this kind of everyday infrastructureeasily 10 years would have passedand this is normalthis is the normal case of any technologyto integrate with the societyany attemptthat tries to shorten this cycleis doomed to run intovery difficultadoption issuesthat people who are not ready for the technologygets enviedwith this taskof accepting the technologyor people who are using the technologygetsundew regulationfrom the government that doesn't reallyunderstand the regulatory technologiesso we need to think long termwhen we're introducing new technologieswhich is whyour office has VRvive HoloLensand I use it to do meeting all the timebut I'm not asking all the legislaturesto use VRto ask questions to the premieralthoughI did do that with the premierbut this is saying thatwe're not taking away the parliament buildingjust now saying okit's fighting too muchlet's all do VRnp debating from our homesthis will be much more peacefulwe're not doing thatwhat we're doing is that we're experimentingand showing some useful modelsand when and if people feel they're readywe can switch to this new modelwe're not really inflictingit's commanding iton peopleit's robot or AIworth investing in long term carepeople may think it's too expensiveyou know this is the same argument as VRlast year VR was really kind of expensiveit cost about40,000 Taiwan dollarsto set up a VRbasic VR environmentbut when people are asking me to give a talkin the U.S.or in HangzhouI had a group of students in Gaoshenga group of students in Hangzhouwho connected their classes togetherin virtual realityand I wore VR to go into their classroomto talk with themand just teach them how to build VR modelsof themselvesso the idea is that there's a classwith half of the seatsand if I put on a VRI still see all of youare now see students fromother classroomsand I was already the digital ministerat that timeso normally if I'm to fly to Hangzhouit's actually very difficultunder the current political climatebut you know for my VRto appear in Hangzhouand to have this kind of discussionwith Gaosheng people and so onof course I'm not taking any profits from thisthe people herethe premierthe office and secretary generalthat I checkedand their ministry that they checkedthey all think it's harmlessand it's truethis harmless is impossible to harmthrough virtual realityI will not get disappearedby visiting this wayand for their legal frameworkit's just like watching a moviethere shouldn't be a lawthat this allows watching an interactive movieso I did teach the students this wayit would costlike hundreds of timesmuch more expensiveboth politically and economicallyif I were to visitand the same is with the MIT media labI drove thisa robotic avatarin Madrid and also in theBosnara and also in theNational Palace Museumthe thousand museum here in Taiwanwith the 360 avatarand of those three experimentsthe only one that I visitedright afterwardis the measured one in Spainand people generallythink that after spendingwith my robotic avatarcalled Galicia for a weekI joined them after a weekthey think that it's the sameit's continuousit's just like my bodywas silicon now become carbon basedbut it's the same personthat they're interacting withI didn't even fly thereso the point here is thateverytime I get thiskind of invitation that are verydifficult politically or financiallyI say yes you may need tospend 40k NTDollarsto build a VR environmentyou may have to spendmaybe 10kto build a studiomaybe you need to spenda couple k NTDollars to rentone of those devicesto the time and the air flightand thecarbon emission from the air flightand whateverthis is actually very very cheapand you get to reusethis vehicleother people can visit you with the same wayafter I try it outwell I'm saying that it is truethat all this are kind of expensivewhen they're stillemerging from the labbut what we need to thinkis the kind ofeven more expensive human laborworkthat we're trying to replaceor substitute or augment withwe don't saywe need a roboteverybody's computer by tomorrowit is impossiblebut just like the early computerswho are replacing many of the mostmendane tasks of enteringjust like numbersand adding through those numbersthe original spreadsheetsit is impossible to find thosevery labor intensive occasionswhere robots and airs are usefuland then just start with thoseinstances instead ofoverly committingto any specific technologyso again in long termcare there's a lot of thingsthat robots can dofor example a robot thatautomatically sensespeople who stoptheir breathing when they're on bedand adjust the bed accordinglyor people who need flipping overoccasionallyand then even for things that stillrequire human interventionit could be like an exoskeletonexoskeletonthat augments the strength of peopleor even a remotely operatedrobotthat is still flippingthe bed and whateverbut it's remotely controlledby a VR wearingworksomewhere else given the rightinfrastructurefor as much damagefrom their labor workbecause robots are strongerso even before the fullAI takes over everybody's jobwhich is easily ten yearsor more than one for most jobswe can already augmentand work with machinesnot replacing human workall togetherthe next question beinglooking at the trendstechnologies and so onhow should the government's bodiesand public servants adjustourselvestojust to look atthe mostimportant partsto adjustthis is kind of an open-ended questionI think the idea hereis thatto rememberthat if you get it wrongthere's usually no riskiffor examplethe tax returnsoftware improvementthat we're now doing with the petitionersfirst we havea year to do thisbecause if we complete it in a couple monthsor three months doesn't matterbecause the tax return has already passedby thenso given a year of experimentationif we just get some part of it rightlike the market experiencebut we didn't fully solve the windows experienceor so far and so forththere's always the old systemthat's there that's stableit's just kind of ugly but we can still use itso for many of those innovationsthey're continuousmeaning that if you get it wrongyou can always go back to the older systemand this is a luxurywith digital systemwith virtual realityyou can break a lot of thingsin this kind of environmentif you're building a bridgeyou can't say thatit's a social cost associated with itbut when building digital systemsit's very easy to start smallto experiment to pilotand then to scale it outso this has a fundamental different naturethan the scarcity-basedphysical spacesand objects that we work within other areas of developmentwhich is also whyin the infrastructure for our looking planwe only booked four yearsas opposed to eight years in the other plansbecause we honestly don't knowhow the world will look likeafter four yearsit's easier to just predictthe infrastructure needs for the next four yearsand let everybody growout of those infrastructuresand then we look at what kind of infrastructurethat we needit's because in digital areasit iterates fasterit evolves fasterso just relaxthat would be my suggestionif you get it wrongit's usually possible to try many many timesbefore you get somethinginteresting out of itand if anyonegets it wrongand you feel that the society needs to blame youfeel free to contact meand I will absorb the blameso whether it's possibleto actually run the real worldenvironmentthe so-called virtual worldregulationsfor example what kind of lawapplies when a service administratordelete a virtual goodsis there some otherexamples in other countriesyesso there is actually a lawat the moment in the administrationwas the process in itit's called the digital telecommunication lawit was drafted by NCCthe previous versionwaswent through the vtawan processand the current version went through the joint platform processso there is a lot of stakeholder inputinforming this lawand this lawis very special in that there is noruling body for this laweven though the NCC peopledrafted this lawis this very explicitlythat this law is like a mapthat maps things that happen in the cyber spaceto the behaviorby the criminal codeor by the civil codein the physical spacethis is because different judgesjudge differently for thingsthat appears in cyberspaceand so it is very difficultfor a judge that doesn't havefirst hand experiencein this kind of cyberspaceand of us to judgein a consistent mannerso most of the other countriesintroduce what they call a normalizingmet the things that happen in the cyberspacewith their existing codes of lawand this is exactly what we are doing nowhere also with thedigital telecommunication lawso yes this all goes back to the civil codeor the criminal codeand you can justlook at one of thosejoin platform discussionsfor the digital communication lawin fact this question appearedas one of the questions on the joint platformso you can look at NCC's answertheresowowhow does highly rankedpublic servantswith the average age of 51 years oldto immerseourselves intothe technologicalgovernmentexcept for retiringI'd like to tell the story of my workin the 12 yearK-12 Curriculum Committeebefore I became the digital ministerI was one of the committee memberin the K-12 Curriculum Committeesharing in Guizhou, Keva Hueand when Iwent into thedevelopment committeethe average age is easily61 years oldit's ten years higher than youyou votethere were all principalsand senior educatorslike various professorsand who knows everythingfrom the education areaand the principalwho is next to methe principalI think she taughtfor 50 yearsor somethingall the way from the basiceducation all the wayto senior high schools and so onand she's I think 70 years oldso in any caseI'm trying to sayit doesn't matter how old you arewhen I introduce this kind of radicaltransparency where I type downand later a stenographer types downeverything everybody sayswe collaboratively edit for 10 dayswe've spent timetalking with the publicwe run a public consultationand so onshe was the firstperson whomultifiedwho proposed sayingbut I mean thisamending hertalkand then also providingsupplemental informationand so on through emailso I was very surprisedshe's like one of the oldest membersof the committee but she's veryadded in using the technologybecause everybody in the committee at the timefeels kind of wrongedby the popular mediathe popular media kind of conflateswith another group of people whowould remain anonymouswho modified the previous versionof the public curriculumbutbecause we adopted transparencypeople trust us moreand generally gives usa better time just let me switchto something elsewe have another 45 minutes or soand after changing to a laptopfinally I can show you the movieand I kind of want to show you anyway各位電視機前的阿公阿嬤大家好 我是翔鳳很高興有這個機會給大家拜年今天呢把我們要用VR也要用3D投影就是呢跟大家講一下怎麼樣做一道每位的開放年菜好的好再投話不多說讓我們繼續看下去首先呢要做出好菜的第一道工序不外乎是勝選食材打好雞任何在廚房發生的事情都要開放透明大家好我們來看看今天為大家製作的食材評價派人的養貓貓貓養貓貓貓養貓貓貓養貓貓養貓貓養貓貓養貓貓養貓貓養貓貓養貓貓火鍋的關鍵就在高湯高湯呢就是要選洋蔥胡蘿蔔 芹菜一起熬煮來個七七四個小時然後最後還要用豐富菜寶來增加高湯的深度等一下等一下我告訴你我媽媽教我們家組成八百年的這個湯裡面一定要有蔥 薑 蒜 辣椒 花椒要先炒過再放那個中藥八角啦小肥啦 桂皮啦這是什麼蒸別再蒸了讓線上正在參與公共政府開放直播的網友來告訴大家這是什麼參賽一起做就已經排大火鍋服就行了蛋蛋後面有說蛋蛋嗎這食材真新鮮是誰負責的啊是我火鍋最重要的就是沾醬了所以我說那個醬汁呢放上沒事這個素食可以吃嗎那這個花椒可以吃嗎這個乳湯不耐可以吃嗎這個鹼的也可以吃嗎大家放心我們火鍋製煉的過程不在我們最新期就納入了各種味道所以這個醬汁可以吃嗎這個醬汁可以吃嗎大家放心我們火鍋製煉的過程不在你們最新期就納入了各界的專業意見而且呢在過程裏面也會照顧到各個不同的人力相關的全體的身體只有這樣子才能夠讓全面的藥碗不得幸福之下很好吃喔我從來沒有吃過這麼開放的火鍋食材的料理方式都公開在裏面參與的關係人都可以盡情的發言再配合逐字稿的發布讓我們來解了解料理的過程為什麼為什麼要這麼開放的火鍋要是火鍋吃不到怎麼辦啊沒有關係我怕吃不到就上PDC.TW公共數位重新空間小組的網站讓大家隨時都能夠更新開動這個火鍋It is important to saythat this remains a modelan idealIt is not saying thatwe are all the way to step 4at the momentwe are very much still on step 1which is transparencywe are still figuring outhow to get transparency rightand the participation buildson the foundation of transparencyso we can't really do participationif we don't have a good transparencybecause then people will be talking aboutdifferent thingsparticipationbut it is important to knowthat this four step modelfrom transparency, participationaccountabilityall the way to inclusionis actuallythere isthis is not our interpretationthe open government partnershipthe OECDunited nationspretty much open governmentmean these thingsto everybody on earthat the moment nowso the point is nothow to defineopen governmentbut rather how to implement itin a way that is acceptableand usefulto the people here in Taiwanso as you can see in the filmnot all the stakeholderslike to be held accountablerightthere are people wearing knivesand not all the ingredientsare yet convertedto open ABIor open standardsand not everybodywho participatesare civilsome people callother people bozosrightso all this areactual issuesthat we facewhen doing opengovernmental workbut the finalvision is towardthat of inclusionmeaning thatafter going throughthe processmore peoplecare aboutpublic policythan previouslythan more peopleget constructive inputinto thepublic game makingprocessas comparedto previous eraso this we didand this we also didkind ofthat the main point beingjust like in the K-12conmeetingthat the whole point is tostart organizingand starts talkingabout your day-to-day operationsand maybejust maybeit is actuallyeasierto usethe electronic equivalenceof the workflowsjust likeprincipals from Michelle found outafterwardshe doesn't needto takevery detailed notesof what other principlesand committee memberpromise to dobecause we have thistranscriptshe can very easilyuse thatto askon the nextcommittee meetingwhat exactlyget donewhat didn't get doneand her staffalso get a copyso she doesn'thave toexplain from memorywhat kind ofdecision gets metwhat was the contextis that her staffcan see the actualtranscript alsoand to determinewhatthe nextcommitteeit wasnot just a wayto showthe societythat we're not corruptit isalso a wayto improvethe efficiencyand mutual trustof everybodywho gets involvedintothe K-12curriculummaking.the Mailin Chinarestrictsand controlspeople's cross-boundary development in order to facilitate their local industries in upgrading their systemsHow do I look at this diverse forms of cross-national e-commerce, social media, e-payment, open-versus protection?For me, there is no…there is no…dictotomy, there is no dilemma between open and protectionOpenness, the transparency is built on the foundation of cybersecurity, of protection, of trust in the infrastructureIf there is no trust in the internet infrastructure, there is no way for people to share their thoughts, to share their creations, to share their ideas on this internet spaceSo the trust in the foundation armed with cybersecurity, with mathematics, with cryptography and protection is importantSo security for me is a subjective experience of feeling secureAnd it's important not to mislead people to feel that they are securing protected without actually securing protecting themAnd it's also important to not build those systems with those secure properties on the outsideBut actually lacking in this mathematical foundationsWhich is why we put cybersecurity as the first pillar, not just in a digital nation plan, but also digital infrastructure for a looking planSo this protection to me is the government's duty to ensure a safe, fair playing ground for everybodyIt is just that the mainland China is not exactly internet, it's a lower case internetIt's like an intranet in their own policy making processSo of course they can do a lot of local innovations, just like you can do in the intranet, in one enterprise or somethingBut the flip side is that many of their contributions in e-commerce and so onIt is actually kind of difficult for them to get into the markets of other open internet countriesBecause they were built on the premise that it's not true in other parts of the worldWhile in Taiwan when we have developed some user experience, some games, some interactive fiction, whateverEven with very locally populated content like FanxiaoIt is actually very easy for the public, general public, even people who didn't hear Taiwan beforeTo adopt to those digital content and to interact with these international platformsLike as Steam or some other interactive social media platformsWhat I'm saying is that Taiwan, although regionally kind of an islandOn the internet, every place, every node is an island anywayThere is just this interconnectedness of digital sharing, digital content and so onSo if we establish our contributions in a way that connects to the rest of the public internetThen our regional innovations get scaled very quicklyOf course the flip side is that other innovations from other countriesAre very easy to take root in Taiwan alsoBecause there is no so-called protectionism going onBut I think this is actually a good thing if the regulatory structureCan welcome these innovations and work out a wayTo describe in the sandbox experiment lawA systematic way to invite those innovators to TaiwanAnd you just as a lab to test those ideasAnd in a way that is safe and compatible with other countriesWith similar codified law systemsSo I think this is actually one of our opportunitiesAs a very tolerant diverse societyTo test out those ideas while enablingOur innovators are young people to build on the topOf those foundations that was established by a multicultural ecosystemIt would be completely different of courseSpeaking if I'm speaking inside the Great FirewallIt is a completely different ecosystemSo different that I think any comparison doesn't even mean anythingBecause it's just like two branches of evolutionNow internet policy speakingSo I wouldn't say that one is good and one is badOr one is open and one is closedI would say that it's a different governance modelIt's like two branches of evolutionEventually we can see how it looks likeWhen it brings out innovations and so onBut I wouldn't say that we needTo arbitrarily compare one model to anotherIt is just like two different species coexistingIn the same ecosystemSo it's an open transparentWith the full recipe this kind of hot potIs it more deliciousOr whether it's the old grandmaWho doesn't even know how she does itBut somehow just cooks a good hot potLike tells a story and whateverSo these two are actually notThat odds with each otherIt is actually possible nowTo just take a hot potAnd somehow reverse engineer its ingredientsIt is possible to do an ethnographic surveyWith the old grandma chefSo that her steps gets recordedAnd somehow gets transcribedWhat I mean isThere's of course a lot of wisdomIn policy makingThat cannot be reduced to procedureAnd I'm not saying that machinesOr computers should replacePolicy makers value judgmentAll I'm saying is thatAll this digital infrastructureSaves us time on the taskThat people do routinelyMeaning that even two different peopleWho do exactly the same thingThey would do it exactly the same wayAnd have the exactly same resultFor these kind of repetitive tasksWhich comprises of the majorityOf a public servant's working dayThere is room for machines to helpBut for the part of the dayWhere you exercise human judgmentWhere you do communicationWith fellow human beingsThen the most thingThat the machines or digital technology can doIs to make it easierInstead of replacing itThis is very importantOne of the things that we didIn the Uber deliberationWas this policy systemWhich is so-called AI power conversationsBut this is not like many other systemsWhere they read from Facebook or PTT postsAnd try to find what people likeOr what people doesn't likeFrom those text miningThis is more like a forumWhere people can voice their own opinionsAbout what you think about the policyAnd we ask everybodyTo start posting their ideasWith I feel thatI feel thatThere is a certain riskTo take unregulated vehiclesYou can see people on one sideBroadly agreeAnd the other sideBroadly doesn'tAnd the other sideLike everybody in this groupSet Uber's rating systemResults in better driving behaviorAnd everybody hereAgreesAnd even some part of the groupOne does it very as wellIn group three cares the mostAbout insuranceAbout their protectionAs a passengerIn group four talks aboutThe commercial modelAnd thinks that the TexasShouldn't be painted yellowThere should be other colorsIn the taxes and so onAnd for people who answerThe few questions like thisThey can write their ownOpinionsFor other people to vote onAnd their avatar would moveThrough different groupsSo this has three benefitsThe first benefit is seeingThat all my Facebook and TwitterFriends are all over the placeThey're not enemiesThey're my friendsIt's just we didn't talkAbout this over dinnerRight so it doesn'tLet people antagonizeEach otherAnd the second good thingIs that it lets people seeThat people's idea can changeThey can convince each otherAnd manageTo find out somethingThat convince everybodyPretty much everybody anywayAcross the boardRegardless of which groupThey belong toAnd this is importantBecause instead ofFacebook or PDTThe loudestThat the most divisiveCorner's dominated discussionThis conversation spaceHighlights the thingsThat unifies people togetherAnd we say thatEarly the people withThe sentiments that convinceSuper majority of peopleEighty percent or moreGet into the agendaWhere we useTo negotiate with UberSo it gives the fighting powerTo people who canManage to find ideasThe resonance withA lot of peopleSo this is actuallyThe fullestUsed to be about sevenThoughts hereThat everybodyPretty much agreesAnd these are the thingsThat we use publiclyTo consult withAll the stakeholdersIn the great type areaThe moment because UberHasn't expanded to the southAt that momentAnd come up withThis regulatory changesThat we try to adapt to UberNow if we useThe traditional questionnaireSurvey polling methodIt is impossible to askEverybody's qualitative statementThis way and aggregated meaningfullySo we will have toDivide it into maybe nineOr ten different questionsAnd to show maybeSeventy percent people want thisSixty percent people want thisWe will never get to aSuper majority becauseIt's impossible for a questionnaireDesigned to anticipateThis converging practiceWhich took about three weeksOr four weeks to convergeAnd if we do thisLike a poll every dayTo randomly sample peopleNot only this is very expensiveBut it leaves a lot of workTo the people who processThose new sentimentsCheck them with duplicatesAnd so onAnd who has to work every nightIn order for the next day's votingTo actually make senseEssentially doing computers workSo this is actuallyWhat many assistantsAnd the judicial reform committeeIs doing nowThey use humans as processorsTo try to convergeSo what I'm saying is thatAI or machine learningWhen deployed this wayThey're neutralIn the sense thatThose are the processesThat a assistant will do anywayAnd two assistantsWill produce exactly the same resultAnd the methodology is announcedWell beforehandBut what we're doingIn a interface hereIs to show people thatIt is possible to convergeTo where something thatEverybody can manage to agree withSo this is the wayThat we're deployingThis transparency menuSo this transparency menuTalks more about the potItselfAbout the kitchen itselfIt talks about the spiceIt doesn't really replace the chefThe chef is still thereIt's just she's madeMuch more efficientBy those robots that cook with herAnd also thatA smart kitchenThat can rememberThe decisions that she has madeAnd so the next chefWhen she's being trainedTo be a chefIt's actually takingMuch less timePersonally I had this experienceBecause when SimonJohn the previous premierLeaves officeAnd starts the transitionAfter the electionHe asked all the ministryTo produce a checkpointDocument and uploadOn the public internetFor the nextLynchian to take overSo it isNot really a transitionFrom one partyTo another partyBoth of them belongTo very independentLike I amWe belong to no partiesThe idea is to transferThe policy making stateTo the entire publicNot just TaiwanAnd for everybody including meAnd I was likeI didn't knowI would become a digital ministerI was just interestedIn where the country is goingSo I checkedThe checkpoint documentsAnd learned from itAnd look at the researchAnd the dataAnd so onJust as a civil society memberBut when I'm like recruitedInto the digital ministerI don't have to startFrom scratchBecause there isSufficient open dataAnd checkpoint documentsSo I can followThe policy making processBefore becoming a ministerSo it's also makingA trainingTo become a ministerMuch easierBecause I get to self-educateIn a way instead ofStepping inAnd then startingFrom zeroAt day oneDo I thinkThere should be ethical rulesIn the digital world or notSo it is very interestingBecause this isIn ethical rulesIn a deontological wayYou should do thisYou shouldn't do thisIf you think alreadyDeontologicallyOf course the sameMen daysStill carryInto the digital worldThere is noNo change at allBut this wayOf the ontological thinkingIs interestingBecause on the digital worldIt is much easierTo connectWith just the peopleWho think exactlyLike you do morallyIn the physical spacePeople often have toMake compromisesBecause our neighborsAll think likeDifferently, ethicallyThen we argueSuch differencesAnd so we have toTalk it throughBut becauseIn the internetIt's very easy to lookThrough keywordsAnd so onTo find what we callEcho chamberOr in TaiwanQuite discursive sphereIn Tongwen townWhere everybodyJust followThe same self-proclaimedRules of combatAnd so onSo it's very easyTo reinforce those rulesOnlineBecause then peopleJust work with peopleWho think and talkExactly like they areIn a filter bubbleBut it is two-sidedOn the first sideIt is easier for peopleTo feelNot as lonelySo feelPeople who shareA sense of valueAnd so onBut on the flip sidePeople oftenGet into their ownVersion of realityAnd the narrativesAnd stop looking atAnything that talksWith the same wayBut with a different angleSo that mostExtremely people hereDoesn't even seeThe livesAnd experiencesAt the other endOf the spectrumThis is what usuallyHappens onlineSo as a public serviceDesignerWhat I'm trying to doIs to construct a spaceWhere we can lookAt a life's experiencesThe factsOf everybodyAnd regardlessOf which echo chamberYou're inAnd respectingThat there areOther ethicalOr the ontologicalSystems in the worldAnd that peopleCan neverthelessAgreed on specificPointsIf we startThis deliberationTalking aboutSharingEconomyDigitalEconomyPlatformEconomyOr those veryHigh sounding wordsThere is no wayThat we can convergeTo a consensusBecause peopleTo sayIt's ethicalIt's inethicalIt's whateverBut if we focusOn a specific practiceThat it is possibleFor people who areOf different belief systemTo neverthelessMake a compromiseSomething thatThey can all live withEven thoughThey're not perfectlyHappy with itYou will knowThat this is not 100%But they can live with itIt's a meaningThat they will notActively thinkThis is a fair processEven if they haveTo make some conditionsSo I thinkThere should beEthical rulesBut it is alsoShould be aMain type ethicalRule that makesUs respectOther people'sMaybe differentEthical systemAnd neverthelessFormOverlapping consensusHow do IStart my dayI start my dayWell it dependsOn which dayWe get thisFor MondayTuesdayThursdayI go to theAdministrationFor workAnd it'sVery predictableThe alarmWill ring around8amAnd I wake upAnd likeCheck all theLike instant messagesAnd emailsAnd whateverAnd then checkMy inboxTo see my scheduleAnd so onWhile stillIn bedIt's all on the tabletRightSo afterLike finishingThe day's planningWhich usually takes10 minutes or soI willFinally rememberTo brush my teethAnd so onAnd thenAnd thenAnd then get readyFor workRightBut if it's a WednesdayOr it's a FridayThen IWork outsideOf the administrationFor FridayI usually go toThe collaborative meetingsWith petitionersAnd so onFor WednesdayI work with theGov zeroV Taiwan contributorsIt's not thatI don't workIt's just I don'tWork in the administrationAnd even thoughSometimesIn the administrationI commit myselfTo evenJust stayingIn one coffee shopNext to the administrationI just wantWalk into theIn administration buildingBut why is thatWhy do I have toSpend my timeAway from administrationBuilding every WednesdayAnd FridayIt's becauseOf the digital governmentIf I'mIn the administrationMany people justGet a red envelopeOr a green envelopeOr somethingAnd then justRun to meAnd the ministerSign hereRightAnd thenPeople would justStand meTo those arbitrary copiesOf very large volumesOf booksAnd then assumeThat I will very quicklyFinish reading itAnd then justSign somewhereBut it isImpossible for meTo cross-referencePapers withOnline materialsOr with evidenceWith open dataWith whateverNone of my trainingIs trainedTo do thisVisual paperProcessingSoBut for peopleIn the administrationThis is quickerBut the ministersWith the portfolioOur officeAre all on the ground floorOf the administration buildingSo they justHave to do a tourTo collect everybody'sSignatures and so onSo it's very easyFor themTo do theirA document processIn this wayInstead of through theE document systemOr through emailAnd so onSo just by introducingAn artificial delayOf two daysIn parts of the weekIt makes people thinkBut it is actually fasterTo reachMinister TomIf you useThe electronic systemBecause I'm always onlineAnd if you justUse emailOr any of thoseMessage systemsThat we set upAs part ofWhat we callEy.pedis.twThis is a workplace systemThat we set upActually the first weekAs spentIn the administrationWas just manuallyConstructingThisSendstorm systemSo theSendstorm systemIs aSelf-hostableWeb productivity suiteAnd it has aTrackingA file storageShared fileTask project managementMuch likeGoogle docsShare spreadsheetsThere's everythingAnd it costs nothingIt's free softwareAnd likeI was one of theContributorsTo this systemSo the first thingI did was set upThis systemAnd make sureThat it is good enoughSo that we can runOur entireWorkflow systemOn top of this systemAnd soYou whyI see thatThere's some firewallRules going on hereSo youJust have toUser imaginationOr notAnd just rememberThat there is aIntroduction hereIt's called初心者Showing101Here we goThe pdisk101SoAs part of pdiskWe provide thisInterfaceTo these peopleWhich formThe core pdisk groupAnd then we allCollaborateThis workspaceAnd thenInstead ofUsing post-itNose like thisBefore thisSystem getsVerified byThe cybersecurityDepartmentWe are nowBecause nowThe cybersecurityDepartment saysOkay, this is secureWe are nowFully transitionInto thisTransparent workplaceWhere everybodyCan seeWhat everybody elseIs working onAnd soEvery weekWe doMeet face-to-faceAnd draw aCollaborative roadmapAnd thenStart sharing documentsThis kind ofWorkplacesFor our projectsIn factIs thatTo communicate with meThis systemTakesRoughly 15 minutes or soFor me to respondMeaningfullyWhereas ifYou start usingPaper-based systemsYou'll have to waitTwo daysOr three daysUntil I returnTo an administration buildingSo after a whileEverybody learnedTo reach meUsing electronic systemsBecause it is actually fasterBut if I goTo an administration every dayI would not haveTo convince people thatActually electronic documentsAre actually fasterSo this is howI start my dayAnd depending onThe weekWeak dayWhich day of the week it isI work differentlyI sometime workIn administrationFor face-to-face meetingsBut for more timeLike four days a weekI'm outside of administrationBut I'm always reachableThrough electronic meansFor the sake ofSafety informationOur governmentIs too conservativeIn developmentIn technologyIn TaiwanHow do I breakThis situation nowAs a conservative anarchistI am actuallyIn favor of being conservativeSo I'm not actuallyLooking to breakThis situationI mean anarchistMeaning thatWhenever I faceWith a decisionThat concentratesMore powerTo a few people VersusDecentralize more powerTo the general publicI always chooseThe latter wayI will never chooseThe concentrating wayAnd you can see this decision nowFor exampleThe rumorThe so-called fake newsDecisionOn the publicationOf vegetable pricesOn the disasterRecoveryInformationThe amic systemAnd so onSo all the casesThat I chairAs a policy makerI choose in a wayThat will empower everybodyInstead of just a few peopleAnd so this is importantBut conservativeIs also importantIt means thatNobody should be forcedTo changeBefore they are readyFor itWe are a democraticGovernment systemIt means thatWe cannot abuseSomebody's human rightOr somebody's privacyIn the nameOf fulfillingThe grand destinyOf the other23 million peopleIt is actually incomparableWe have to actually respectEverybody's intentOf adapting to technologyAnd so onNot sayingThis is the countryThis is the nationAnd we just eliminateThe people who they knowDo itWe can't say thisSo I think it's importantTo be conservativeBut it's also importantTo say thatWhile we're conservingOur own values and so onThere are neverthelessWays that let us workMore efficientlyAnd more meaningfullyAnd so which is whyWhen I'm arbitratingIn those policiesI encounterVery little oppositionThere is no public servantSo farWho stand upAnd fight with meSay noI want to workMore hours every dayNoI want to makeMy familyEven more miserableNoNobody say thatRightEverybody really wantTo simplify their workAnd their workflow systemsSo I would neverReally push throughAnythingWithoutThe public serviceGet ready for itBut I will continueTo experimentAnd let peopleGenerally seeWhat kind of prosAnd cons are thereFor introducing those systemsWell, this isActually sensitive questionIs there a causeI vote in a successIf it's not a successHow do we improve itWell, the joint platformIs not justFor the national administrationIt actually hasA type of cityA partIf you clickThe type of city partYou will seeThat they sayAnd it's not my wordsThey sayThat before itActually goes throughI votingThere should beA general discussion periodA verification periodA collaboration serviceThat unifiesPeople's proposalsAnd their petitionsSo about3,000 peopleGet a more focusedJust like we didWith the national proposalWith 5,000 peopleBefore putting itTo I votingSo at the momentIt's still kind of newThe most we haveIs aboutThe painting materialOf roadsAnd it's alreadyAbout 16 peopleThere's some ways to goIf you feel strongly about itFeel free to fill it inAnd counter-designThe petitionBut the point hereIs that it actually doesImprove the qualityOf I votingBecause it lets more peopleInput their authenticExperiences into thePolicy forming methodInstead of just lettingA few people or expertsDetermine the 4 or 5 optionsIt actually offers a muchLonger timeFor people to proposeMore reasonable optionsAnd we can also in theFuture use those pros and consA green interfaceTo store through thoseContributionsWhich I thinkIs going onlineA few months from nowSo in any caseWhat I'm sayingIs thatThe I voting peopleEventually realizesThat the options hereAre actually the mostImportant thingAnd for the votingTo be bindingThe option shouldAccurately reflectThe positions of peopleInstead of justA few expertsAnd so onWhich is whyThis early stage processUsing the joint platformAs the inputTo the I voting choiceMaking processAnd all thisIs in the wordsOf the Taipei city peopleSo I don't haveTo offend anybodySo their ownI voting committeeThinks thatUsing join asA inputIs a good thingCan I tell youSome specificSuccessful casesIn promotingTechnologiesIn government agencySureSo if youLook atThis websiteIn additionTo this hot pot thingWhich is a filmWe alsoHave our general agendaParticipationIn transparencyBut there's alsoThis part calledAccountabilityAnd accountabilityWe chooseThe wordsTerrific responsibleSo that it willTranslate to了不起負責In ChineseAnd if you clickThroughTo accountabilityIt will show youSome QR codesAnd the QR codesThere are write-upsFrom likeBlocks fromWell this isAutomated translationSo anywaySo all thisIs what we callA track recordFor policy makingEach of this caseStudies startWith the thing thatWe're trying to solveThe actual websiteFinally getsDesignedWhat kind of prototypesDo we getAnd thenWhat kind ofMendates fromThe legislationThat we try to answerHelping the premierIn fulfillingHis promiseTo the peopleAnd alsoThe parliamentAnd so all thisInformationHow we negotiateHow we talkWith differentUnitsEverythingIs collaborativelyEdited by peopleAnd those meetingsEdited for 10 working daysAnd thenAllowed into itSo if you needSome convincingYou can actually quoteAny of these thingsLike when theRollingStorageOf those vegetablesRightThis is confidentialInformationOtherwise we willInfluence the marketWe release this dataBut it's thatYou know evenNational secretsAfter 10 yearsEven if it'sAbsolute top secretBecause releaseAfter 30 yearsSo how longDo you need to waitBefore it goesOpen dataIt's likeActually 24 hoursIt's just nobody botheredTo ask this question beforeSo it was never madeOpen dataBut becauseThis question gets askedIt's likeYeah sureBy the next dayThere's no wayYou will affectThe price of yesterdayIt's safe to releaseWhich is whyWe sayOkay sureSo you uploadTo the open data platformThe next dayIt's actually just fineRightSo yeahAll those case studiesCan be seen hereThere's alsoA very similar oneAbout the e-sportWhere I try to convincePeople who may beMore seniorAnd haven't playedE-sportAnd convince themThere are waysThat the game goIs actuallyE-sportNowSo anythingYou realizeAbout weiqiIs actually applicableTo e-sportBecause it's nowA game that'sPlayed onlineThat's performanceBasedAnd that computersPlay expectThat human beingsAnywaySo it is nowVery muchE-sportIt should qualifyThe e-sportShould do everythingThat weiqiEthlets nowEnjoyAnd so onSo what isMy commentWe implemented toAll the school kids in TaiwanWell, high school kids in TaiwanAnd not next yearUnfortunatelyIt will beOne year after next yearI think it is generallyTo me it's like a foreign languageAnd then it is importantLike a foreign languageFor a special languageLike the lawWe're not trainingAll the kids to be lawyersOr lawmakersBut it is importantThat everybody hasA sense of what law isInstead ofA bunch of lawyersControlling how lawsShould be interpretedThere should beA ladder of expertiseWhich is why we'reTrying to integrateInformation technologyAs early as primary schoolIn all the different fieldsOf educationInstead of justOne coding classSo the literacy hereIs much more importantIf they're interestedIn low lawmakingOf course they mayWell become lawyersOr lawmakersBut there isAll sort of positionsParaprofessionalsOf all sorts ofPeople who interpretThe legal opinionsFor their familiesAnd so onAnd all the way toThe general peopleWho has a general ideaOf what law isSo coding for meCode is law in manySensesIt's like physical lawThat describeWhat's possibleWhat's not possibleIn the digital worldSo it is importantThat people knowWhat algorithm isWhat data isHow an algorithm and dataForm our daily livesAnd how to readCode and not getScared away from itThat it isActually a systemUnderneath and so onBut not everybodyNeed to beRiders or lawmakersAnd so onBut it is importantTo be able to appreciateAnd understandThe next stepOf the lettersPeople's opinionOf what is going onLegal wiseAnd this is how the societyAdapts to technologyChangeIt was introducedOf course by peopleWho specializeIn technologyBut as they getA dialogueWith other likeLegal peopleAnd other peopleWork out cultureEducationEconomy and so onThey need to get translatedFurther downThe letterIn a way that isMuch more accessibleBy people who understandA little bitAbout this topicTo explain to peopleWho doesn'tUnderstand a little bitBut if everybodyDoesn't at leastHave some basic understandingWhat would meanThat there's no wayFor this translationProcess to happenExpertsAnd everybody elseAnd this is notA healthy societyTo adaptTo technological changeIt was saidThat I don't likeGetting scoredSo what are theGood waysTo evaluateHow good it isWell, I don'tLike scoringBecause scoringArtificially compares peopleAnd I don'tLike peopleTo build theirSelf esteemBased on theRelative statusTo other peopleBecause it'sNormativelyI would sayIt's normativelyFragileIn the sense thatPeople will feelHelplessIf all theirSelf-worthIs based onRelative statusBecause mostlyControlled by otherPeople and not oneselfSo if ISet some goalsIf I sayThere's a directionThat I'm goingI should beJust byHow farOr how nearTo this generalDirection to vectorAnd getsYou knowScoredWhy notBut not byArtificial scoring systemThat conflatesEverybody'sDirections into oneMetricSo which is whyAll the foreign mediaWill ask me toCompare TaiwanWith SingaporeWith Hong KongWith KoreaWith JapanAnd I always sayWell TaiwanIs number oneAt being TaiwanAnd this is notThis is not a jokeWe haveA generalDirection going forwardAnd weSet it collaborativelyBut everybodyStill hasOur own personalGo and isAlso importantFor everybodyTo work onTheir own dimensionsAnd evaluateThe regulatory workAgainst thePublic servant's ownVolitionWhat they wantTo doWhat you wantTo seeFrom this governmentThere is noLike onePremiere orPresident orAdministerThat knowsFor everybodyWhat we can doIs try to absorbThe current informationThe current trendsAnd set some valuesSome general directionsThat are not contradictoryTo each otherBut everything elseIs up to you folksSo it is importantFor every public service workerTo just seeWhat you would like to seeIn the public serviceAnd try to find a wayTo make that happenInstead of just to sayIt's all the directionOf the 10-year20-year agendaThere is no such thingWe canBuild a20-year scenarioTogetherBy usingOur imagination togetherBut when it comesTo implementationEverybody will have toDo their ownScore currentThe digitalGovernmentThere isA voting thingRightSoWellIf this is aboutSamplingThe survey methodologyThere isA very long literatureAbout how to makeSortition or surveyOf this kind of representativeIn idea of demographicAnd so onBut I thinkThe most important thingIs the listening processThe discussion processThat goes before votingBecause if youJust go to votingIt is very rareThat you will get90% or 95% consensusIt's usually 70%Or 60% or so onAnd you leaveMost of the peopleActually not that satisfiedMaybe theyJust see three choicesAnd have to chooseOne that theyDon't really likeOr in the caseOf three choicesMaybe more peopleGet disappointedBy the resultAnd people who getThe resultThat they wantedSo I thinkThe point is thatFor people toGenerally convergeTo the thingsThat they can all live withSo that allThe three optionsAt the end of the discussionI can all live with itBecause I've heardSufficient deliberationArguments fromPeople who argueFor all those three positionsAnd those positionsAre broadly applicableTo my caseSo that it improvesThe overall satisfiednessOf people whoParticipate in the finalBinding votingBut without this processI think it isActually much more divisive Than beforeWhen we onlyHave to vote onceEvery four yearsThe questionIs how to adjust oneselfAway from negative thoughtsWellI think it is aboutHaving a spare roomIn one's mindWhere there is sufficient roomFor the negative thoughtsTo dwellTo live onBut there's also nearby roomsWhere you can look atThrough the windowsInternallyTo the negative thoughtsAnd also make a conversationWith the negative part of youIf there isNo sufficient roomThen one negative thoughtEnters and occupiesThe entire mindAnd there's no roomTo think aboutEverything elseBut I think it's importantTo have other roomsThat representsDifferent states of mindTogetherAnd for me personallyPoems, musicThese things helpSo that I willSpend a lot of timeDoing translationOr doing poetryAnd so onSo that my mindRemembers a particular stateOf a poetOf a mindAnd so onSo that when I enterA negative thoughtsThere are those thoughtsInside my brain, my mindThat still are distinctFrom this one negative thoughtAnd can have a dialogueWith itSo whether it's positiveOr negative energyIt all gets absorbedAs energyWell, we're running out of timeSo let's justVery quicklyLike the rest of the questionsYeah, I'm sorryThere is no wayI can go through thisIn four minutesIn EnglishSo I willTake a breakIn protocolAnd switch back toManderingAnd try to answer all thisManderingThen還有三分鐘那我們就非常快速我覺得科技產業的重點是說每一個領域它現在不只是單一領域我們現在是會流到各個不同的領主先生存有個半導體這些東西Inable的上面的這一層那創造層所以說這個方向的話其實是對這種跨域或者取消領域的新一代的創作者是不利的我們現在在看的時候這領域怎麼結合起來讓他們能夠去創造他們自己的領域可能10個團隊就有10個不同的領域讓科技政府新進的方式剛剛已經講了就有一個feedback讓每一個人的這個概念可以用甚至是匿名的方式讓角色者跟中間的每一個人是看得相同的將一份資料就比較容易去improve然後最基本的這個IT的technology這完全要看你的工作的執行其實重點是還是科技要來配合你不是你來配合科技所以說如果你的工作上面有任何地方你覺得應該要改善那我們需要一些新的device讓它改善我還是要講其他技術建設裡面有一大部分就是這個然後在接下來的數位政府planned理員也包含在院裡在地方政府的工作環境的的一化的升級那epayment其實不需要我們特別promote我們只需要這個政府一向都是這樣子的所以重點是說我們只要在這個調適的過程裡面讓大家都知道這件事情是什麼回事我覺得epayment它會自己長出來我進入目前的這個工作之後我覺得政府它的感覺其實跟我在外面的感覺是一樣的它就是一個我在出國的時候常常大家都說台灣數位政委Digital Minister可是因為參加聯合國系統的一些場合像OGP的時候它就會發一個粉紅色的意思就是這個NGO但這個NGO還是叫台灣它還是叫Digital Minister其實不算是一個政府嗎因為不是聯合國裡面所以說我在外面感覺就是很像這個兩千三百萬人的一個NGO在這樣的情況之下其實它是一個不同的perspective就是讓我們去看說第一個我們比起其他NGO我們可能不需要那麼大的強制力另外一個就是說我們整個目的是non-profit是為了讓大家生活過得更好其實在做這件事情還是我的心態多多少也有所轉有別的NGO可以做得更好我們就讓別的NGO來做是這樣子的一個概念然後international重營這件事情到底是怎麼回事呢這個就是公共政策參與平台但是呢是給公務員用的然後也可以匿名去逆程的方式去做聯署等等然後就讓大家把自己可能透過公務人員協會有一些這個按照目前公務人員協會法比較不能夠反映的事情能夠在上面反映然後讓政委員講這些我們也會註冊一些帳號上去去跟大家進行討論跟溝通數位國家政策我們到底要怎麼樣把它落實這個就是我剛才在剛剛那個簡報裡面講的我想最重要的一點還是把我們目前現有的服務做盤點然後去做串接而不失去這些新系統我還是覺得KPI應該是負的新系統這個新系統是越少越好最少是負的我自己沒有什麼建議我建議就是我們閃開讓專業的來很多這個專業的服務設計師現在在辦這個黑客森現在慢慢的幫我們去想這件事情感謝這個一個老的靈魂然後有這個passion一個我老的骨頭這到底是什麼意思這個重點是說怎麼樣用用Technology去做 Decision Making那我們未來會一直在PDC網站上面除了開放政府大夥伴開放政府差位碼之外也放一些相關的教材上去希望大家能夠多多指教也隨時給我們問問題在年輕人這邊我們重點是不要讓老人來代表年輕人說話而讓年輕人走進公共政策致力過程裡面幫自己說話那我們接下來青年自訓委員會都網站上面會有很多關於這個新的process除了要求這個Efficiency跟Transparency之外Digital Minister還要再做什麼事情沒有我這一任能把這兩件事情做好就已經差不多了接下來的參與這個課則或者是寒容的系統我們在現有基礎上可以多少做一些嘗試但你要大規模的這樣撒出去絕對是在我們先把最底下的行政數位化跟透明做好之後才能夠來開始那這個剛剛已經講了是說我們可以用AI來幫忙去分析大家給的各種意見有人問說是不是需要一個數位事務部我覺得是不需要就跟這個我們立軍部長說要44個文化部是同樣的意思我們現在在洛人的重點是讓部門之間能夠互相合作我們如果回到本來的就是reporting structure的話你又生出一個不來的結果就是說那其他部就把事情這樣子堆過去那這樣子這個部又變成熟伐了到底是什麼好處呢重點是說這個部會是要它每個部會之間甚至每個三級機關之間要能夠去落實這個服務串結的開放政府的概念所以同樣的這件事情就是讓更多就是我們在做的時候就覺得我們做這件事情真的交給機前去做然後人跟人之前多一些時間做一些只有人跟人時間才能夠做的事情政府會有個人資料那當然我們Setter security非常非常重要資通安全那另外就是我們要對各自的利用做一個非常一致的解釋這個最後行政法院已經在幫我們建保案的時候給了一個很好的採視所以我們接下來就是在蒐集處理利用的時候會有一個更明確的一個方式那是不是多數報的也網路霸凌我們目前的剛剛講的super majority它不像如果有兩組分別是80%20%的時候我們的算法是你要80%的全部加上20%的一半要到90%才算過關所以你不管繞多少人來到80%你還是要說服少數的一半所以這個重點很重要就我們要讓繞人來這件事情變得不那麼重要你只要繞1000個人來他們所有的投的票都長得一模一樣在這個point上面它只是一個點我們這邊算的並不是它的面積這個面積是它的idea多 diverse它都能夠有不同人的觀點我們這個完全不是比人數的所以當你在這邊看到203或這邊是549這邊201的時候你可以看到它的面積跟它的人數一點關係都沒有我們要的是這個東西的意見的多元性我們要的並不是去數人頭我覺得數人頭在感受跟事實階段是沒有什麼好處的那這個有人說這個每個人這個儘管要自己管機房這個經費的問題這個就我只好說這個請支持方向上集中綠能機房計劃這也是在前瞻幾處前瞻好Anyway如果在一例休止前線透過網路評論探尋民意會不會比現在好其實我覺得政策都是滾動式的所以說不只是這個法案本身因為畢竟是立法院我在行政院我很難告訴立法院說立法委員你們接觸民眾應該有什麼方式我向你們質詢向你們克子雖然是反過來的所以就說我現在在行政院大家沒有辦法來指導立法院但是我們盡可能在他送進立法院之前我們再多花一些時間去收集立法院的意見也等於幫立法院做一些功課所以是不是這個所有的目前的網站是的我們剛剛講到PDIS.tw的網站底下就有網所有這些連結今天講的那個前瞻的Q&A它基本上就是EY.gov.Taiwan就是行政院的全球資訊網一進去就可以看到這個前瞻去監視然後進去之後就讓紅色的長線問題即可到了就是唯一一個就是你可能要從行政院官方進去而不是用PDIS進去的因為我們才剛寫好好大概就這樣子謝謝大家謝謝唐政委今天來非常精彩的一個下午的一個演講我想第一個他展示了我們剛剛講開放跟互相參與的一個參與的模式這對我們來說是很敬業的一個過程本來因為想說這麼開放式的過程哇題目從這個從機器人從recipe初母的recipe一直到個人一天怎麼開展一天但是最後還是可以幫我們偷偷出一個非常完整結構性的對於所謂的我們講數位之力開放政府等等這樣的一個面向一個諸多的結構性的一個面向我想這真的是非常非常的厲害今天也謝謝唐政委員給我們很多的鼓勵因為剛才有一個題目給你做了一個報告跟說為什麼說因為剛好我們這邊是全國最高階的訓練班剛好我們這一班所有家中前我們的 average的 average就是51歲所以也就透露我們的恐懼就說我們到了這個年齡還可以跟得上腳步嗎唐政委給我們很大的信心是的永遠不選玩永遠不選玩我們剛剛在鬧一群比我們老的人還出來我們就是可以跟上今天非常謝謝唐政委員我想今天一開始的其實是唐政沒有提可是我覺得三個很關鍵其實整個我們開放政府就是有三個目標第一個是我們的卓越國家我們要創新經濟我們要智慧治理那也就是我們從一開始唐政委給我們提示事實上整個數位開放政府的核心幹事要出現我們的經濟的發展跟我們國家的發展而這裡面我們要innovative的方式來進行一個新的頒展經濟的過程跟治理過程而這裡面我們需要inclusive要把我們人民的力量代替我們人民的意見代替所以這裡面有一個非常結構性跟邏輯性的一個運作的模式那這裡面我們也很振奮原來KBI是可以被給到垃圾桶去好那我們再次謝謝唐政委今天帶來非常非常之好的謝謝謝謝