Salamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Before we begin, just a quick reminder or an announcement, my dear brothers and sisters, as we are in the spirit of Ashura and the values of Imam al-Hussain, alaihi salam. Let's make sure that when it comes to the parking in this area, that we are parking appropriately, don't block any driveways. This is a residential neighborhood, and in previous years there have been some issues. So let's please keep that in mind, and also let's maintain the cleanliness of the premises and also the neighborhood around us so that we truly demonstrate the values of Imam al-Hussain, alaihi salam. And also here in this blessed hall, let's make sure that we maintain it, that it's clean when we leave the hall, inshallah. Salamu ala Muhammadin wa ali Muhammadin. I begin in the name of the Almighty God, the Compassionate, the Merciful. The One who has created everything in utmost perfection. And may the peace and blessings of the Almighty God be upon his pure and beloved messenger, the symbol of his creation, the peak of humanity, the Holy Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alaihi wa alaihi. And his immaculate progeny of the Ahl al-Bayt, peace be upon them, especially the leader of our time, the awaited savior, al-Imam al-Mahdi, ajralallahu ta'ala, farajah. May Allah hasten his reappearance and make us all amongst the sincere and dedicated servants. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala states in the Holy Quran, Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem, qul ya'ibadiya al-lathina asrafu ala anfusihim. O Prophet, say to the people, my servants, my creation, O you who have excessively sinned against your own selves.  Do not despair from the mercy of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, for the Almighty God forgives all sins, no exceptions. You seek repentance, Allah forgives those sins. For He is the one who always forgives. He is the merciful one. Sadaq Allahul al-Aliyul al-Azim illuminate your hearts and minds with a very loud salawat. We extend our condolences to the master of our time, al-Imam al-Mahdi, ajralallahu ta'ala farajah on this tragic occasion, the martyrdom of his grandfather, al-Imam al-Hussein salawatullahi alaihi. And I also extend to you, my dear brothers and sisters, my sincerest condolences on the martyrdom of al-Imam al-Hussein. Secondly, I would like to welcome you all to our program in which we gather in the spirit of Ashura to reflect on the teachings of al-Imam al-Hussein, alaihi salam.  We will carry your message and we shall continue your message. In these blessed nights, we invite ourselves to the school of al-Imam al-Hussein, alaihi salam, to purify the heart, because this is the school of al-Imam al-Hussein. It purifies us. It allows us to better ourselves. It is the great miracle of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that he has created the human being. Look at this walking, talking human being. It's truly one of the great miracles of God. And this human being has been endowed with amazing, miraculous faculties. One of the greatest dimensions that we human beings have is our emotions. Imagine your life without emotions. Emotions give life to us. In fact, our emotions allow us to taste what life is. Imagine if the human being did not have emotions. You could not experience love, hate, fear, anger, happiness, joy, guilt. What kind of life would we have? We'd be robots. But the Almighty God has equipped the human being with these amazing emotions so that you can truly experience the miracle of life. And all of the emotions, if used properly, allow the human being to better himself, to ascend the ladder of completion. In our discussion tonight, my dear brothers and sisters, I would like to examine the emotion of guilt. It is one of the emotions that is least understood. It's one of the emotions that Allah has endowed the human being with. What purpose does the emotion of guilt serve? Why did Allah give us the capacity to experience guilt? Because some people see it as a negative emotion. It's a burden. It's an uneasy experience or feeling. So why would Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala allow us to experience guilt? Do we have positive guilt? How can we use guilt to repent from our sins? And how is it that the emotion of guilt inspired so many people after the tragedy of Karbala to rise against the tyrants, to repent and to carry the message of Al-Imam al-Husayn al-Isra? Let's now examine the emotion of guilt. You might be surprised that it's actually an emotion. If you were to list the emotions, you probably would not list guilt as one of them, right? You would think it's more of a feeling. But many psychologists are confirming that guilt is actually an emotion. It's a fascinating emotion. And they classify guilt in the category of negative or sad emotions. It's a negative emotion. It's a sad emotion. It's one that makes you feel uneasy. That's how we define guilt. When you've done something wrong, you've made a mistake, you've made a violation, you have your moral convictions, you violate those convictions, you believe that you've caused harm or damage, you have failed to meet certain standards or expectations, you feel guilt. It's that bad feeling that you experience that makes you feel uncomfortable when you've made a mistake. That's the definition of the emotion of guilt. Now my dear brothers and sisters, this emotion of guilt, is it a negative emotion, or can it be a positive emotion? There are some who claim that the emotion of guilt is a negative emotion. In fact, there are some psychologists who say that the worst emotion is guilt. Because it wastes your emotional energy. It's a waste. What purpose does it serve? It makes you feel miserable. It doesn't serve any purpose. It makes you stuck in the past. I've done something in the past. I keep ruminating and thinking about it, and I'm just stuck. I can't move. It capitulates you. It immobilizes you. So it's a wasted emotion that wastes all of your emotional energy. And therefore it's a negative emotion that we need to free ourselves from and you need to get rid of it so you can stay focused in life. There are some who adopt this extreme understanding of guilt, this extreme opinion. However, my dear brothers and sisters, once you analyze this emotion, you realize that it's one of the greatest gifts that Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta'ala has given the human being. It's completely natural to feel the emotion of guilt. In fact, psychologists say people who cannot experience guilt, they have some level of psychopathy. These people are psychopaths. They have a mental illness. That's why you see big criminals, serial killers, repeated offenders. These people, what happens to them is that they lose this capacity to experience guilt. And so they keep committing the same crime over and over. It's completely healthy and natural to experience the emotion of guilt. Yes, excessive guilt is unhealthy. There are some people. Anything bad that happens, anything that goes wrong, they blame themselves. And they feel this guilt. Something goes wrong in the family, a problem arises, a challenge comes, they feel guilty about it. They keep blaming themselves when they are not to blame, when others are at fault. Excessive guilt of this sort, where you're blaming yourself for everything that happens, is definitely detrimental to one's psychological and spiritual growth. And indeed, it is this negative guilt that we, as believers and followers of Imam Al-Hussein, we need to push aside from our lives. Other than that, we find that the emotion of guilt is indeed a very positive emotion. I would like to share with you some benefits of guilt to better understand this emotion. I would like to share with you what role guilt plays in your life to better appreciate this amazing emotion that Allah SWT has endowed us with. Number one, you find that guilt aids the human being in developing conscience. Without guilt, we would not have a conscience. What is it that awakens your conscience? To know right from wrong, to know that you've made a violation, that I have committed a mistake. What is it that awakens your conscience? It's that feeling of guilt because guilt makes you feel bad. When you feel bad, you can't just continue. You have to stop yourself. I feel uneasy. I feel uncomfortable. Why? What has happened? And it beautifully awakens your conscience. And that's why psychologists have noted that children as young as three can actually experience guilt when they've done something wrong and they know that they've done something wrong. They start feeling guilty. And that is a beautiful internal faculty that Allah SWT has given us to know right from wrong. So the first benefit of guilt, of this emotion, is that it actually allows you to develop your conscience. Without guilt, we would not have a functional conscience. You probably would not see right from wrong. Or if you would, you wouldn't care because you wouldn't feel bad about it. And that's why Allah SWT mentions this aspect of our soul in the Holy Quran. And because it's so significant, Allah takes an oath. La'uqsimu biyaumil qiyamah wa la'uqsimu bin nafsil lawama. Allah SWT here points us to an nafsil lawama. This dimension of our soul that reproaches us, rebukes us for doing wrong. It is this nafsil lawama that awakes your conscience. And the way that is achieved is through the feeling of guilt. That's the first positive benefit of this emotion. The second benefit of the emotion of guilt is that it makes you a person who has empathy. Human beings, by nature, were selfish. We just want the goodness for ourselves. It is this feeling of guilt that protects you from selfishness because you feel bad about other people. How is it that we have empathy? We human beings. How is it that sometimes when others are suffering, when we've caused them pain, why is it that we feel bad? Why is it that we want their goodness as well? It's because of the emotion of guilt. It actually protects us from being selfish. And that's a wonderful gift from Allah SWT. Without guilt, believe me, people would have been so much more selfish and they would not care, they would not feel bad. All they would think is of their interests, of their comfort and they would disregard other human beings. So we find that the emotion of guilt actually protects us from selfishness. And because it also creates empathy in our hearts, it brings cooperation amongst human beings. The reason why we have functional societies in many parts of the world, you have harmonious societies, people getting along with one another is because of the emotion of guilt. Because once you disrupt the social fabric, you cause pain to other people, you wreck havoc in society, you feel bad about it. It's this emotion of guilt that actually discourages you from putting yourself in that situation. So you start cooperating with other people. That's the second benefit. The third benefit to the emotion of guilt is that it protects our relationships with one another. It's this feeling of guilt that stops you from hurting your partner, your spouse, your family members. Believe me, you cannot live with a person who does not have the emotion of guilt. Someone who does not feel guilty, you cannot live with them. Try having a roommate who doesn't feel guilty. Or a spouse who does not feel guilty. Or a business partner who does not feel guilty. You think you can sustain a relationship like that? It's the emotion of guilt that actually allows us to maintain our relationships. And the thought of this uneasy feeling which guilt generates in us, just the thought of it discourages you from ruining that relationship. So we're always trying to repair our relationships. For most people, for the functional, healthy individual, it's the feeling of guilt that actually motivates you to repair the damage done in a relationship. You violated your spouse. You violated a family member. Allah SWT awakens this emotion in you to feel bad about it. You can't continue living like that because you won't enjoy your life with that feeling of guilt. So go and do something about it. See how this emotion encourages you to fix your faults and mistakes? If you pay attention to it and use it proactively, it actually helps fix your faults. It helps fixing your mistakes. And speaking about family relationships, studies have shown that here in the United States, the greatest cause of guilt, the single greatest cause of guilt is what? Is people who feel they're not spending enough time with their family members. You're working 15 hours a day. You're busy with your life. You're not giving enough time to your children, to your spouse. You feel guilty, right? That's the biggest cause of guilt in the United States. That you're not spending enough time with your family members. This actually encourages you to pay attention to them. Pay attention to your wife, to your children. Give them time.  And so it encourages you to dedicate some time to them. Now here's the thing, my dear brothers and sisters. Some people, unfortunately, they have a tendency of taking advantage of guilt in their partner or spouse. They make them feel guilty all the time. And this is something that's wrong. Allah will hold us accountable for that. How many husbands have you seen? They always make their wives feel guilty because they have so high expectations. She always feels guilty. Anything she does, she has to feel guilty about it. If she goes and spends an extra hour with her parents, with his in-laws, he makes her feel guilty about it. And she doesn't enjoy it. If she doesn't serve him the way he wants, he makes her feel guilty. And the other way around, there are some husbands they're really struggling. They're trying to provide for their family. And no matter how much they work, the wife is not satisfied. She's always complaining and making him feel bad and creating the sense of guilt in him. Don't ever make your family members feel guilty, my dear brothers and sisters. This is wrong. Don't think that pain and abuse is just physical pain and abuse. Beating someone, hitting someone, making someone guilty unrightfully is a sin in the eyes of Allah's panu ta'ala because that's a type of psychological and emotional abuse. But this always happens in society. So this is the fourth benefit of guilt. The fifth benefit, my dear brothers and sisters, so many studies have shown that teenagers who have a sense of guilt, they are less likely to fall into drugs and immoral paths, illegitimate relationships. This actually protects them because that uneasy feeling motivates them to stay on the right path. And this is rahma from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Now some people ask the following question and psychologists actually ask about this. They say, okay, we have some examples of guilt that's useless and that's annoying. Why is it there?  Have you ever felt guilty? If you've gone to a fancy restaurant and you've shelled out $300 on a meal with your friends or family, sometimes you feel a little bit guilty about that, right? Is this a positive emotion here or is it a negative emotion? It's actually a positive emotion. Why? No, not because Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not want you to enjoy life. Enjoy it. If you go and you buy expensive food, enjoy that. Be laafiya, sahten, enjoy it as much as you can. But the emotion of guilt serves one important purpose. It makes you a responsible human being.  You know how much of the food that we buy, we waste it? 40% of all fresh food in the United States and Canada is thrown in the bin, 40%. Do you know how much money that is in the US every year? Every year, Americans waste $180 billion worth of food, $180 billion. That is more than the GDP of tens of countries combined. That emotion of guilt should stop you from wasting.  Wasting resources, you should feel guilty about it. And Allah wants you to feel guilty about it. So it stops you from wasting. That's number one. Number two, think of the poor. Yes, when you go and buy something and you kind of feel guilty about it, use this guilt proactively, positively. Go and give and sponsor an orphan. Make a donation. See, without the feeling of guilt, we would not do that. We would not feel bad about poor people around the world who are suffering. We wouldn't care. And it allows you to appreciate the blessings of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. Therefore, even guilt that is experienced when you spend, when you're enjoying your life is actually a positive emotion here. It's aimed at making you responsible. So you use the blessings of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala appropriately. Now there is one type of guilt, my dear brothers and sisters, that I would like to bring to your attention. And this is a negative type of guilt that is experienced by some people. And they need to understand that they should not feel guilty about this.  For example, you have a disability and you feel constantly guilty about it. There are many people with disabilities. They experience severe depression because they feel guilty. My parents are stuck with me. They have to care for me. My siblings, other people, other family members, other friends, and they constantly feel guilty. They feel uneasy. They feel bad. They cannot enjoy anything. Why am I a burden on others? And they feel guilty about that. My dear brothers and sisters, don't ever feel guilty about that. When something is beyond your capacity, there's nothing you can do about it. It's something willed by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. A disease, a disability. Don't feel bad about it. It's the will of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. In fact, realize it's an opportunity for your family members, for your parents to seek reward and compensation from Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. Families who have a disabled family member, that's a blessing from Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala because Allah is giving them an opportunity to show care and compassion to that disabled person. Do you know how much Allah compensates them? Do you know how much Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala will reward them? This is a blessing from Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. This is not something that you should feel guilty about. Leave it up to Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. Don't let that take you to severe depression like it does to many people. We find that this beautiful emotion that Allah has created in us is one that awakens our conscience, my dear brothers and sisters. It helps us see right from wrong. And when we slip into a negative path, it makes us feel uneasy so that we can change that path. Now there is one distinction to make here, my dear brothers and sisters because sometimes they get mixed up. There's a difference between guilt and shame. Shame for the most part is negative. Guilt is the feeling that you experience when you've done something wrong because that action is disturbing you. That's good, that's positive. But there are some people who feel excessive shame such that they start self-loathing and they start hating themselves. Never identify yourself through a mistake that you've done. Many people fall into this trap, my dear brothers and sisters. And it makes them feel miserable, depressed, and they lose hope. Don't self-identify with an act, even if it's a sin. A believer is one who does not have hatred towards himself. I've heard this from many people who struggle with depression. And this is exactly what they'll say. Say it, I feel I'm worthless. I'm worthless. I'm not worthy of anything. Even when you ask them to do some recommended acts of prayer to even pray, no, I'm not worthy of praying. You see that self-hate? This is negative. Regardless of what you've done, in the end who created you, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, you're the creation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, how can you not be worthy? Yes, be humble about it.  But in the end, you are the creation of God. He's the manufacturer and you're the product. Don't develop self-hate because this is definitely something that will ruin your life. It will take the hope and the energy from your heart. Despise the action, but don't despise yourself. Subhanallah, in a beautiful hadith, Imam al-Sadiq, alaihi salam, teaches one of his companions who rebuked another companion for doing something wrong, and he attacked him. He attacked his personality. The Imam al-Sadiq said, don't judge his personality. Don't attack his character. Don't condemn his character, condemn his action. Yes, if someone did something wrong publicly, you have to show a stance. You have to show that it's unacceptable. Condemn the action, but don't condemn the person. Make a distinction between the person and the action. That's how you see your brothers and sisters in society. Always make a distinction between their actions and their character. You can critique an action, that's fine, but don't destroy their character. They have dignity. Imam al-Hussein, alaihi salam, beautifully in dua Arafah, in that last part. He beautifully reminds us how much self-worth we have because Allah is the one who created us. He says, ilahi kaifa astaizu wa fi dillati ar-kaztani. He says, oh Allah, how can I have self-worth, honor, dignity, a high status when I'm so low? And that's my reality. Look at the human being. What is this human being? We're miserable, we're so weak, but sometimes we become arrogant. The Imam al-Hussein does state that, so nobody becomes arrogant. But then the Imam al-Hussein beautifully states after that, but how can I feel worthless when you have attributed me to you? Oh Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala. Wa kaifa la astaizu wa ilaykana sabtani. How can I not feel that worth when you are my creator and you're the one who created me? And I am your product, I am your creation. See how the Imam al-Hussein speaks to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Be humble, but at the same time realize that you have a lot of self-worth. So there's a difference between guilt and shaming yourself, putting yourself down and saying, I'm a bad person. I'm such a bad father.   Don't ever say that. Yes, look at your action and try to fix your mistakes. But don't start hating yourself because if you fall into this path, it becomes extremely dangerous, my dear brothers and sisters. We find that when we want to continue our path of towba and repentance, my dear brothers and sisters, we find that the emotion of guilt is instrumental in bringing you to repent to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. When you examine the traditions of the Ahlul Bayt, peace be upon them, and the traditions of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa alayh, we see that there is this emphasis on regret. Nedam, there is this emphasis on feeling regretful. In fact, one hadith from the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa alayh, he says, feeling remorse, feeling regret in itself is a type of repentance. If you really want to know if Allah has accepted your repentance, if you're truly and sincerely repenting, ask yourself, do I have remorse, genuine remorse? Do I really feel guilty about what I did or no? If you don't feel guilty about the sin that you've committed in reality, you're not repenting. You must feel guilty because that guilt reveals sincerity, that you truly mean it, you're honest, you're genuine about it. Without this feeling of guilt, how can you demonstrate that you really are repenting to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala? Kafa bin Nadami towba in another hadith. It suffices for regret to be repentance. In another hadith we find, Al-Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib, alayhi s-salam, he describes the stages of repentance. He says, you want Allah to forgive you? Here are the stages. Number one, the first stage, the first step is to feel bad about your sin, is to feel remorseful. That's the first step. The next step is to fix the mistake that you've done. You've violated someone, go and apologize. You've taken someone, you've confiscated someone's rights, go and give it back to them. You have missed obligations, missed prayers. Imagine if I have years of missed prayers and I just sit there and say, Astaghfirullah, O Allah, forgive me. That's not enough, start making them up. That's how you show Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that you are sincere. And then the Imam Ali s-salam, beautifully as a last step, he says, if you really want Allah to forgive you and to show that sincerity when you're repenting, just as you allowed your body to taste the sweetness of sinning, allow that same body part to taste the difficulty of obeying Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.  You want to expiate for it? Use those eyes in Allah's obedience. Read and seek knowledge. Allah will forgive your sins. Read the Holy Quran. Look at your parents with compassion. See how Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala trains us if we want to repent. You use these hands to sin. You use this body to sin. Use it in Allah's obedience and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala will consider that as expiation for your sins. That's how you demonstrate that your toba is actually sincere. Some people, unfortunately, they don't feel bad about their sins. One of the conditions of Shafa'ah, this is a hadith from the Prophet ﷺ. He says one of the conditions of intercession of Shafa'ah is to feel bad about your sin. Malam tasuqhu sayyiatu. The Prophet says if you sin and you don't feel bad about it, tough luck. How can I intercede for you when you don't even care about your sins? We must feel regretful. Moderate regret, of course. Moderate guilt. Not something that's excessive that makes us severely depressed and stuck. But you need to feel that regret in order for Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to forgive your sins because it is this feeling of regret that will motivate you to compensate for the wrong that you've done. Two, three decades ago, there was a very respected scholar, a Marja in the Holy City of Qum, al-mar'ashi an-najafi may Allah bless his soul. I've heard this from a number of scholars who narrate the story from him. He says that there was a man who seemed to be a very righteous man. He looked very righteous from the outside, you know? Subhanallah, sometimes the outside is very deceiving. That's why you should never judge a person according to their appearance. Even if someone looks religious, don't quickly judge and say, okay, this person is an angel. Or if someone does not look religious, don't quickly judge them. This person can be better than you.  He says there was a person, I trusted him. He seemed very trustworthy. He seemed very religious. He used to pray with us. So I would give him money for some religious projects.  He's getting a religious act done. He says after many years and this man was old, after many years this man came to me. He told me, say it, I have a big confession to make. Remember all these years you've given me the money to perform a religious duty? Well, guess what? I never performed it. All those years I never performed it. And I took that money unrightfully. But now I feel really guilty about it. And I'm getting gold. I don't know what's going to happen to my fate. So I thought I'd come and I tell you. Now imagine this merger.  And suddenly he's told that he's not done any of those tasks. He became angry. He became furious.  Not only did you betray me. You betrayed Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la. You betrayed the people. How can you do something sinful like that? All these years I trusted you. He said, look, I knew you were going to get upset with me and you have the right to be upset with me, but this is the reality. Now see how this old man used guilt to fix his mistake.  He told him, tell me, what do I need to do? How can I fix this mistake? How can I repent from this sin? He told him, you really want to repent from this sin? All that money that you took over these years, you give it back. You give it back to me and I'll spend it in its appropriate place. You have to give it all back. You're liable for it. Now the guy was poor. You didn't have that much money to give back. He told him, I'll do that. If Allah will forgive me, I will do that. He told him, how will you do that? You're poor. You don't own a lot of money. He said, I have a shop and this shop generates an income for me.  Ask yourselves, brothers and sisters, would you do that?  All these years, you violated your business partner and that's how you made your millions. And now if you want to repent, you have to give your business to your partner. It belongs to your partner. Are you willing to do that? It's not easy. But this man said, yes, I will. I am willing to do it. The marja told him, but if you sell your shop, how are you going to live? How are you going to sustain your family? He told him, I have Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala He's the sustainer. He'll take care of me. He went and he sold his shop and he gave back the money to the marja. And that's how he sought the repentance from Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. Days later, this scholar, this marja was informed that that man passed away. The time had come for him and he passed away. See how Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala purified him from that sin right before he passed away because he felt genuinely remorseful and guilty about that sin. You see the role of guilt, my dear brothers and sisters, in bringing us closer to Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib, alaihi salam has a beautiful statement. The Imam alaihi salam in speaking about the role of remorse of Nedam, the Imam beautifully states, The Imam alaihi salam says, okay, you've created a tree from sins. Now you're stuck with this tree. How do you get rid of this tree? How do you turn this negative, sinful tree into a positive one? The Imam alaihi salam says, Wasakawha bima innadam fa'athmarat lahumu as-salama wa a'qabathum ar-rida wa l-karama. The Imam alaihi salam says they water this tree of sin with what? With the water of remorse, the water of guilt. And through that Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala turns that sinful tree into peace. And it's interesting that the Imam alaihi salam uses the example of a tree because have you seen a tree? What does a tree do? Have you seen fruit trees? In order for a fruit tree to give you the best fruits, you would fertilize it, right? In the past, they would use natural fertilizer. Have you ever seen natural fertilizer? Have you ever smelled the stench of it? It's disgusting, right? It's something that is very unpleasant, the odor of it, the nature of it, but the tree takes this nasty material, the natural fertilizer, and it converts it into wonderful fruits for you to eat, right? See the work of Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. Isn't that amazing? That it takes this nasty thing in this world object and it converts it into a beautiful, aromatic, fragrant fruit. And that's exactly what repentance does, my dear brothers and sisters. Repentance takes your sins and it converts them into good deeds. That's why Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala states, O laika yubadirullahu sayyiatihim, hasanat. Allah says those who truly repent, they sincerely repent. All those sins, Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala will transform them into good deeds. That's the power of Toba, my dear brothers and sisters. And in these nights, as you have come to the Majlis of Abiyah Abdullah al-Hussain, realize that the Imam is inviting us to change, my dear brothers and sisters. Regardless of what you've done in your life, this is the opportunity to say, oh Allah, I feel guilty about what I've done, but I am willing to change and I will use the message of Imam al-Hussain, alaihi salam, to change myself. Read Munajat al-Ta'ibin by Imam Zayn al-Abideen, alaihi salam. Have you read this supplication? The whispers of the repenters, Munajat al-Ta'ibin. Beautiful words by Imam Zayn al-Abideen. Ilahi al-Basatni al-Khata ya thawba mad-dallati. Look at the beautiful words of your Imam. He says, oh Allah, my sins, my mistakes have made me wear a clothe of humiliation. Yes, when I sin, I humiliate myself because I lower my status. Every sin lowers us, my dear brothers and sisters, but repentance allows you to elevate yourself. And then the Imam al-Alihi salam says, wa amata qalbi, azeem ujinayati, oh Allah, my grave sins have caused my heart to die. They've taken the life from my heart. fa ahyee betawbatin minka ya amali wa ya bughiyati. Oh Allah, revive this dead heart. How does it get revived through repentance? Oh Allah, forgive me and that's how you will give life back into my heart. Fawa asafaa min khajlati wa ftilahi. Oh Allah, how shameful do I feel? What if I get exposed for my sins? But then you turn to Allah because you know your Lord will conceal your sins.  Asaluka ya ghafir ad-dham bil kabeer wa ya jabir al-azmil kaseer.  Oh Allah, you're forgiven. Oh Allah, I trust that you are going to conceal my sins. You're not going to expose me, oh Allah. This is how a believer looks to Allah, Subhanahu ta'ala. As a merciful Creator who will cover your past, who is going to conceal your sins if you repent on the Day of Judgment, Allah, Subhanahu ta'ala, will not expose you. Here in this life, Allah, Subhanahu ta'ala, will also not expose you. Then the Imam, alaihi salam, says Oh Allah, if remorse, if feeling guilty about sins is repentance, then I swear by your glory. Oh Allah, I have repented. And you see this is how the believer trains himself to repent to Allah, Subhanahu ta'ala. Let's use the message of Imam Al Hussain, alaihi salam, to purify this heart, my dear brothers and sisters. But at the same time as we are expecting Allah, Subhanahu ta'ala, to forgive us, we also should forgive other people.  If they've apologized, if they have expressed regret, give them a chance. You know what Imam Al Hussain, alaihi salam, says? If I believe in the message of Imam Al Hussain, I will believe in the statement from the Imam. He says, my grandfather Rasulullah, sallallahu alaihi wa ala states the one who does not accept the apology of the one who's asking you to forgive them. If you don't accept their apology, even if you think they're not that sincere, even if you think the person is not sincere, and you don't forgive them, you don't accept their apology, the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa ala says, this person is not from us. I will not intercede for this person. Because when you seek the shafa'ah, the intercession of the Prophet, in reality you're saying to the Prophet, oh Rasulullah, ask Allah to forgive me for my sins, to let go, I'm apologizing it. You expect Allah SWT to forgive you, but you don't forgive other people. Forgive them. Imam Al Hussain, alaihi salam says, forgive them. The one who apologizes, forgive them, even if you don't think they're that sincere. But now that they're asking for your apology, let go of the past. Let go of their mistake. Then my grandfather Rasulullah, sallallahu alaihi wa ala will intercede on your behalf. As we are commemorating the tragedy of Karbala, my dear brothers and sisters, we find that this emotion of guilt actually awakened the ummah after the martyrdom of Imam Al Hussain, alaihi salam. It primarily affected the people of Kufa. After the Imam was martyred, a group of people in Kufa, they gathered. They felt extremely guilty, and this emotion of guilt inspired them to rise to support the message of Imam Hussain, alaihi salam, and to fight the corrupt Umayyad dynasty, a group of people in Kufa they gathered. They told themselves, what's happening? How did we betray Abi Abdullah al Hussain? How did we not rush to his support? There were five leaders to this revolution that was about to take place. And the most noble of them was one of the companions of the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa ala. Sulaiman Ibn Sard al Khuzai. Ibn Sard al Khuzai. This man was a companion of the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa ala. He was born 28 years before the Hijrah. He met the Prophet. He was from Yemen. And he participated in the battle of Khannaq. He was in Kufa after the martyrdom of Imam Hussain. He gathered with a number of the followers of Ahl al Bayt, and they told themselves, how did we betray Abi Abdullah al Hussain by not supporting him? So they led a movement called Thawrat al Tawabin, the revolution of the repenters driven by extreme guilt. They gathered in a place called Nukhaila, 4,000 of them. Initially there were 16,000 who pledged them allegiance, who pledged Sulaiman allegiance, but then 4,000 of them showed up. They went to Karbala. They stayed for about two days by the grave of Imam Hussain alaihi wa sallam. Crying, weeping, feeling regretful and remorseful. How did we betray you, Abu Abdullah? They would recite poetry to express their sorrow, to express their sadness for the Imam alaihi wa sallam. And then they went to a place called A'een al Warda where they met the army of Ibn Ziyad. Now the army of Ibn Ziyad was 30,000. These repenters were only 4,000. They were no match for that big army, but they wanted to demonstrate a point that we will compensate for our betrayal of Imam Hussain because we the people of Kufa, we invited him. And we were not quick in supporting the Imam alaihi wa sallam. We feel regretful, but now we are willing to sacrifice our lives. All of these 4,000 were martyred over there because they wanted to demonstrate to the world that we will carry the message of Imam Hussain. So many revolutions, my dear brothers and sisters, were sparked after the battle of Karbala because people felt guilty. Al-Mukhtara al-Thaqafi was one of them. He also led a later revolution to seek vengeance from the killers of Imam Hussain, all those who participated in killing the Imam alaihi wa sallam. And that's how we find that the dynasty of the Umayyads collapsed. Finally the Ummah went back to its conscience. How did we betray the message of Imam Hussain alaihi wa sallam? You see the role of guilt in awakening the conscience. And there is no vivid example, my dear brothers and sisters, like the example of Al-Hur ibn Yazid al-Riyahi. Al-Hur ibn Yazid al-Riyahi was one of the warriors of Kufa. He was known to be one of the most courageous men of Kufa. He goes with 1,000 soldiers to intercept the army of Imam al-Hussain alaihi wa sallam. In nights like this, in a night like this, because it was on the 2nd of Muharram that Imam al-Hussain arrived the land of Karbala. On a night like this the Imam alaihi wa sallam was on his way to Kufa. But Al-Hur ibn Yazid al-Riyahi with 1,000 soldiers he intercepts the Imam. He blocks the Imam from going to Kufa. The Imam alaihi wa sallam then has to change his journey from Kufa and he heads towards Karbala. Al-Hur ibn Yazid al-Riyahi did not really think that Ibn Ziyad wanted to kill Imam al-Hussain alaihi wa sallam. He was confused. He did not know. On the day of Ashura when he sees that the battle is becoming serious, Umar ibn Sa'd, the commander of the army, he had come with 4,000 fighters and he was talking about slaughtering Imam al-Hussain and his companions. Al-Hur ibn Yazid al-Riyahi, he goes to Umar ibn Sa'd and he tells him, do you really want to kill this man?  He said, oh yes, there's going to be a fierce battle. You are going to see hands and feet being amputated. You think this is not serious? Of course we're going to kill him. He told him, but why kill him? Just let him go back from where he came from. He said, I will go back. He said, no. Either he pledges allegiance to Yazid or we shall kill him. At that point when Hussain sees that this is serious, the emotion of guilt starts to awaken his conscience. One of his friends, he sees him shaking. He tells him, Hussain, you're shaking? Why? You're one of the most courageous men that I know. On such a day, I would expect to see your courage. Why is it that I see you shaking? He tells him, I see myself between hell and heaven. Hell is on this side and heaven, the camp of Abi Abdullah al-Hussain is on the other side. And I swear by Allah, I shall not choose anything over paradise.  When he approached Imam Hussain, look at him. Who are you?  I am the one who put fear in the hearts of your children. Yes, it was a major sin. How can you do that to the grandson of the Prophet? The women and the children, they were terrorized by the army of Khur when they intercepted them. And he stopped the Imam from going to Kufa to meet his supporters. He tells him, Sayyidi, Aba Abdullah, I am the one with this history. I've committed this huge mistake. Halim and Tawbah. But Aba Abdullah, is there room for repentance? Can I repent? Look at the compassionate art of Imam Hussain. He tells him, If you truly seek repentance, Allah will forgive you. This is the message of Aba Abdullah Hussain. On such a night, the Imam invites you to repent, to go back to Allah, regardless of what we've done. Allah, let's go. Allah will forgive us for our sins. He tells him, Okay, Aba Abdullah. But now I have to compensate for my sin. Allow me to go and speak to the army. And to try to give them advice. He goes, he gives a powerful speech. He admonishes them. But of course, they don't listen. Then he comes back to Imam Hussain. He tells him, My master, Allow me to be the first one who is killed from your supporters. I want to compensate for my sin. Allow me to be the first one to be a martyr. And he becomes a martyr in the way of Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. This is the message of Karbala, my dear brothers and sisters. In these nights, as we gather, yes, we experience sadness and sorrow. But let's learn from the message of Imam Hussain. Now, my dear brothers and sisters, I want to take your hearts to the homes of the Imams and how they would commemorate Ashura. The Imam, alayhi salam. Imam Al-Qadim, alayhi salam. Imam Sadiq, alayhi salam. He says, when the month of Muharram would start, I would see my father, he would become depressed. Kanaabi, itadakhala shahrul muharram, la yuradahika. He says, when Muharram would start, my father, Imam Al-Baqri, he would no longer smile. This was a moment of sadness for him. This was a moment of sorrow. Wa kana til ka'abatu taqlibu alayh. I would see my father in extreme grief. He would feel depressed for what happened to Abiy Abdullah al-Hussain. The Imams of Ahl al-Bayt, whenever they would experience a tragedy, they would always remember the tragedy of their grandfather, Hussain. Once the evil ruler Al-Mansura Al-Abbasi, he commanded his general or his governor in Medina to attack the house of Imam Al-Sadiq, alayhi salam. They attacked the house of Imam Al-Sadiq, and they set the door of Imam Al-Sadiq to fire. And the fire encroached into the house of the Imam, alayhi salam. The Imam had to protect the women and the children from that fire, and he himself extinguished the fire. The next day, one of his companions went to see him. He went to see Imam Al-Sadiq, alayhi salam. He saw the Imam agonized. He saw the Imam severely depressed. He told him, what's the matter? Why do I see you in this state? You're actually crying. He told him what happened the day before our house was attacked. My house was set to fire. The man told him, yabda Rasoolallah, oh grandson of the Prophet, you should be strong. This is normal to you, the Ahlul Bayt. This is not the first time that your house is attacked. This is not the first tragedy. Why do I see you crying? You know what the Imam, alayhi salam, told him? The Imam told him, oh man, do not blame me. When I saw my women and children running from one room to another room to protect themselves from the fire, I remembered the day of Ashura. When my aunts, when the women and the children would run from one tent to another, because the tents were set on fire on the day of Ashura. And the evil commander of Yazid's army, he would say, ahrequbu yuta dhalameen. Burn the house of the oppressors. He's saying this about the family of Imam al-Hussain. Imam al-Sadiq says, when I saw this scene in my house, I remembered the tragedy of Karbala. That's why I'm crying. I'm crying for my grandfather, Abiyab Abdullah al-Hussain. This is how the Ahlul Bayt, my dear brothers and sisters, would experience these days with difficulty. They would have gatherings in their homes. Sayyid al-Hamiari, he was a famous poet. He says, I visited Imam al-Sadiq, alayhi salam. He told me, do you read poetry? He said, yes. I compose poetry. He says, I want to hear some lines of poetry, eulogizing and commemorating my grandfather, Hussain. He says, the Imam, he put a curtain. He called the women and the children, and I read lines of poetry and they would cry. This is how the Ahlul Bayt would experience these days, my dear brothers and sisters. Even before that, the Holy Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa ala, you know how many times Rasulullah, salallahu alayhi wa ala, would cry when he would see his beloved Imam Hussain, alayhi salam, his beloved grandson Hussain. Once Rasulullah went into his room, he told Um Salama, I want to rest. I want to meditate with my Lord. I don't want anyone disturbing me. Don't allow anyone to come into my room. Um Salama, the wife of the Prophet, she says, I saw Imam Hussain, I saw Hussain. He was a young boy, maybe three years old. He started running towards the room and he slipped from my hands. He managed to enter the room. I tried to stop him, but I couldn't. She said, I approached the room of the Prophet. Initially, the Prophet was happy to see his grandson Hussain. Then I heard the Prophet weeping and crying. I thought, maybe Hussain is disturbing the Prophet. Let me go and take him out of the room. She says, I went inside the room. I saw Hussain on the chest of Rasulullah. And the Prophet was crying. He was weeping, sobbing. I told him, what's the matter? Is Hussain disturbing you? He said, no, he's not disturbing me, but as he was on my chest.  He told me, Ya Rasulullah, do you love your grandson? I said, yes. Jibrail told me, what would you do?  And that's why I was crying. When we cry in these nights, we are following the path of Rasulullah. We're following the Messenger of Allah. He is the one who teaches us to grieve over Imam Hussain and to learn from his lessons. And finally, my dear brothers and sisters, I'll share with you a quick scene between Da'bel Al-Khuzai, the famous poet, and Al-Imam Al-Rıda, alaihi s-salam. He was in the presence of Al-Imam Al-Rıda. Al-Imam Al-Rıda, alaihi s-salam says, read some lines of poetry. I want to hear something about my grandfather Hussain. He read these beautiful lines, madar su ayaatiyyin, khalat min tilawatin. Wa mahabat wahiyyin, muqaffarul arasati. He starts his poetry by saying, these homes in which the revelation, the signs of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala would be revealed. These homes in which the Holy Qur'an would be recited, but now these homes are empty. Which homes are these? O Da'bel, tell us. These are the homes of Ali ibn Abi Talib, of Hamza. These are the homes of Ja'far. These are the homes of the Ahlul Bayt, peace be upon them. What happened to these homes? Now these homes are empty. Al-Imam Al-Rıda is now emotional. He's about to break into tears. He's about to break into tears. He's about to break into tears. He's about to break into tears. He's about to break into tears. He's about to break into tears until he mentions this tragedy of Al-Imam Al-Husayn. When Da'bel says, If you were to see your beloved son Hussain, slaughtered by the river of Furat, what would you do? You would slap your cheek if you were to see your grandson, your beloved Hussain, sleeping on the grounds of Karbala, martyred by the river of Furat. Al-Imam Al-Husayn Brothers and sisters, raise your hands in Dua. This is the moment of Dua. Allah has promised us with tears, with broken hearts, He will answer our prayers. We ask Allah Subhanu wa Ta'ala to hasten the reappearance of our Master Al-Imam Al-Mahdi. We ask Allah Subhanu wa Ta'ala to give speedy recovery to those who are ill, to those who are suffering. Pray for them, my dear brothers and sisters. There are many who are going through struggles. This is the moment in which we beseech Allah to give them relief and to give them a speedy recovery. We ask Allah to forgive us our sins. We ask Allah to grant us the Ziyarah of


Good morning everyone and thanks for joining so early in the morning and this being the first session. There's like a lot of pressure Okay, so my name is Trisha as she mentioned and I'll be talking about opening up African data So this talk was actually meant to be presented by my colleague in my keysa But due to visa constraints, she was unable to join us So I just really hope I can do justice to showcase the real hard work She's put through in her project open Africa Okay, a bit about me. My name is Trisha. I Work for a non-profit organization called code for Africa where I'm the senior data product manager and I manage the Organizations data lab. I come from a city called Durban, which is found on the east coast of South Africa Took me about 32 hours to get here. Well, I'm just so excited to be up. Okay So I love data. I love visualizations. I love maps. I love hackathons So if you have a hackathon, please invite me, okay Yeah, but most importantly what I love is the impact that data can have in Africa and not only in Africa being here it's it's the first time I'm on in the South America and It actually shows me that Africa, you know, they also always mention the global South So problems you see in Africa. I'm seeing similar issues here in Argentina So data has this Has the can make this impact in the global South So I just want to take a look at how code for Africa Creates change and impact. Okay, so code for Africa. We also known as CFA We're the continent's largest civic technology Organization and we work on data journalism and open data projects to name a few Okay We have our team comprises Journalists data analysts technologists designers distributed all through the African continent We have various initiatives so one of them being one a data and One a data is a network of women only journalists data scientists designers Technologists, okay, then interesting we have a network called African drone and They use drone technology for mapping and storytelling Another program at the organization is called sensors Africa and what they do is They build and deploy a quality sensors that now collects data We also have a PESA check team. So this is our fact-checking initiative and they operate in 13 countries and they conduct a lot of fact checks and Lastly, we have an iLab team that does forensic investigations such as social media investigations Let's look at some of the data challenges that we are facing in Africa and maybe many of you can relate to it This is our reality So often data is very difficult to find If we do find data by any chance It's either stuck on a website and you can't get it out or it's stuck in a PDF report and then you have to scrape it Then you get a scenario as these pictures So these are actually the government Gazette offices in Kenya and Nigeria These files or hard copy documents you see they they are actually broken shelves and leaking roofs and These documents are actually government Gazettes Another issue that we face is data sharing and it's not only on the African continent, but internationally as well so because I'm a data person and when I read a new story and A journalist is quoting a statistic Okay, I'm always interested to know where did this come from? I want to read further about it Okay, so sometimes they do mention they'll say a report from the World Health Organization Okay Sometimes they state the exact name of the report If we lucky really lucky they will hyperlink to that report But often when it's hyperlinked you click on the link you get a full for error Or you get some sort of error that this file does not exist. Okay? so What we're doing at open I mean what we're doing at code for Africa is we built a tool called Open Africa that's meant to help solve this problem when Africa is Africa's largest volunteer driven open data portal So it's built on C. Can and I've yesterday. I've heard so many people speak about C. Can and D. Can So yeah, it was built in C. Can and I think it was built in 2014 or 2015 so it's a quite a while ago. Okay The the purpose of open Africa is for us to reuse and and share data So for example Kenya has an annual economic survey report that they publish Now this report has loads and loads of important data indicators The issue is it's only in a PDF So me if I am doing an investigation or story if I'm just working with that data And I'm interested in a specific data set for example Healthcare workers. Okay, I'll then go in and I'll scrape the data But I'm a bit more of an advanced data user I have the skill set to allow me to scrape the data. I can use tabular and other tools So once I have that data, I can get it into my spreadsheet From my spreadsheet, I can conduct my analysis. I can create my visualization You know, I'm a happy chap and Then what I further do is I share that data or upload that data to open Africa So now if if anyone else is interested in that data on healthcare workers in Kenya They don't need to go through all the steps that I went through to go and scrape that data And maybe they don't even have that skills they can simply download the data and use it for their further analysis in This way we are sharing data and reusing data in Quite a productive way We have a few main users of open Africa. This also won an award. It won the 2021 Sigma Awards and it was the first African project to ever win the Sigma Awards Okay, like I said, open Africa was built around 2015 Okay So we have a we have a future plan in mind Okay, let me just go through a few future steps and after this or even if we have time now Because I know a lot of people are working on open data portals I'd love to hear your thoughts on how we can improve the product Okay, future parents we have a basic three-step plan So firstly to scrape clean and upload So we we continuously want to do this get more data up on various topics, but in particular elections We aspire open Africa to be an African election data monitor So your one-stop place for election data Then our next step is tell and by tell I mean we want to create an insights blog And in that insights blog we want to take a particular data set from open Africa And write about how it can be used Or write about how it has been used For our users to get an understanding of the power of data It's not just a csv document sitting in there But tell them what can you do with it? And lastly use We want the data on the platform to be used in more impact driven projects by not only our organizer Organization but also our partners We'd also absolutely love to have an intensive campaign on open data And why sharing data is important with particular attention to open Africa We're also in the middle of a redesign because I mean What is design in 2015 does not look great right now So we're really looking forward to that as well Okay, so if you want to know more about code for Africa's open data projects, just give us a follow on twitter And yeah, let's go for some questions And I ask that you speak in the mic so that it can be recorded Is data acquisition Do you allow other repositories to harvest data from open Africa for discoverability of your content? Yeah, we do have the ccan api that people request for And we do give them access to that. Yeah. Yes. Yes So so another thing to that is what we try to do as well is reverse We try to get their data. But the issue is if That gets broken quite easily So we have a bunch of broken harvesters that we need to fix Are you finding out if they don't for example, everybody sites data should So how else are you information about what people are doing with your data so that you can share that so I'll let you answer from there. I don't have to yeah So impact reporting is something that we also want to try and get down to Because what we notice is that people so we have we use google analytics and it tells us the most Downloaded data set et cetera, but we're not seeing The output where are they using the data? And we were thinking of having a survey. So when you're downloading the data have a survey Um oxing what do you want to use the data for? Problem is the survey has to be optional Because if you tell them if you only only uh, you'll only get the data if you're filling the survey That does not make it open data because you're restricting access So you have to make the survey optional But are many people going to fill in something that's optional? That's an that's another problem. Yeah About Makoko Makoko and remember Uh, you people living in that area if they wanted their Plays, I mean their place to be mapped and I'm thinking about potential violent conflicts or other reasons why they wouldn't want their Home or houses or businesses to be mapped. Um, maybe they don't have internet. They don't use it themselves How do you manage that part? You know, okay? So this is a very interesting and complex situation We had a team member go in and do community Negotiation he had to go have meetings with the chief On multiple occasions because you can't just go within Africa within villages You can't just go in and do what you want. You need to negotiate with chiefs You have to have town hall meetings. There's like, um I wouldn't like to use we didn't really like pay them but they expect like some sort of Like gift, you know that you take to them They were very happy about it because the place was not on a map And if you're not in the map government is not taking you Holding I mean is not taking you into account when it comes to planning There was also a lot of eviction taking place In the place because literally they were invisible and the city was just like we don't want to see you because you're a slum So by putting the people on the map it brought visibility to them And they can be counted for and government can then provide Services for them. Yeah We have one minute. We're okay. All right. Thank you so much Thank you so much


And now, this is the moment you all watching around the world have been waiting for in the sold-out Primal Edge Health livestream. It's time to ours for the undisputed vegan versus carnivore heavyweight championship of the world. Introducing first, fighting out of the green corner with the debate record of 1 win, 0 losses. He stands at 5 foot 11 inches tall, weighing in at 200 and a 1 half pounds, fighting out of his supplement laboratory in Toronto, Canada, presenting Mr. 19 inch arms, Richard vegan gains, and now introducing his opponent, fighting out of the red corner. He stands at 5 foot 8 inches tall, weighing in at 150 and 1 half pounds, fighting out of the Bronx, presenting the pride of New York, Frankie Boy to Fano. Well, you're either trying to say one of two things. Can I demonstrate that increased circulating levels of LDL cholesterol in the blood increases the amount of cholesterol that ends up embedding in the artery wall, or you're mixing up terms again and you're just asking me to show. Now I think you're just delaying me and asking me. No, I'm not. You're just not making any sense. I don't want to turn into just arguing over semantics. If you have a question, a specific question for Richard, or if Richard has a specific question. All right. This is the question. I had the wording incorrect. I did not. Well, I technically didn't have the wording incorrect. He's just not interpreting what I'm saying correctly. Can you show me a study indicating that LDL serum cholesterol is associated with LDL cholesterol binding more to proteoglycans in the arterial wall? Okay. Basically, you're just asking me to show whether or not there's an association between circulating LDL and increased plaque buildup. No. That's not what I'm asking. That literally is what you're asking. No. It is not. That is literally what you're asking. Let me explain what happens when LDL enters the endothelium. It binds to proteoglycans and it is then taken out by HDL cholesterol.  That can then get caught in the arterial wall, become inflamed.  That is why I'm asking you to show.    Okay. It doesn't matter. All right. No. It literally doesn't matter. It's basically like a weird red herring. This weird mechanistic data you're asking for, it just doesn't matter. We have huge meta-analyses, randomized controlled trials, and genetic research showing. It's not weird mechanistic data. It's a basic function of LDL entering the endothelium. Great. Great. I'm going to share this. I just want to bring up one more thing. Frank is basically claiming that vegan diets are inherently nutritionally deficient due to a number of issues like anti-nutrients and things like beans. If you actually look at the American Dietetics Association, I think they changed their name to the Academy of Nutrition Dietetics, they're the largest nutrition organization in the world. I believe over 100,000 licensed nutrition practitioners. They released a peer-reviewed published paper stating that well-planned appropriately planned vegetarian and fully vegan diets are totally appropriate for all stages of the life cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, and athletes, and vegan vegetarian diets. They also offer protection against numerous chronic diseases including heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers. It's pretty clear. It's the consensus among nutrition professionals and experts that you can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet as long as the diet is appropriately planned. I'm sorry. I'd like to study the position of the American Dietetics Association of Vegetarian Diets and this guy Craig W.J. is one of the authors of this. Our buddy Craig is a Seventh Day Adventist Vegetarian. Mr. J. Craig received his Master of Public Health Degree in Nutrition from the Adventist Run at Loma Linda University. He was once a research chemist at Loma Linda Foods and taught at the Adventist College of West Africa as well as Loma Linda University. Do I have to really go into this or can we just dismiss that study and say there's some sort of vegan and vegetarian diet?  No. What they eat has nothing to do with it. They have a religious predisposition to pushing their diet and lifestyle. The Seventh Day Adventist lifestyle. The mission of the department is to prepare dietetic and nutrition professional services to their church, society and the world and to influence the community at large to affirm the Seventh Day Adventist lifestyle, including the vegetarian diet. Okay. Well, no, Frank, these people who eat meat, they want to, they have a bias to promote their lifestyle. Can you give me the name of the meat-eating religion, please? Okay. Well, it doesn't have to be a religion, Frank. It's their lifestyle. Well, the point here specifically is your buddy Craig isn't so objective. He's only one of the authors. Okay. Well, it passed peer review. Let's go into the other authors then. All right. We're going to the other authors. We're going to the other authors in your American Dietetics Association. Okay. We'll do it. Frank, you're still screen sharing, you know. I know. Okay. We got, we got Ann Reed-Mangles, reviewer for the ADA's 1997 Vegetarian Positioned Paper co-author, Vegan for Ethical Reasons. Oh, that's no big deal because she eats vegetables. That's okay. Okay. So, okay. Okay, cool.  Vegan for ethical reasons. Vegan for ethical reasons. Vegan for ethical reasons. Right, okay. Okay.  So, obviously, they have- But they don't eat meat. They don't eat meat for ethical reasons.  They eat meat as a utility for nutrition. Well, no. They eat meat because they grew up eating meat. They think it's normal. They've been told like you have to have meat in your diet to be healthy. So, they have a bias, right? So, you can't.  The point is that the bias is not related to diet. The bias is related to their religious affiliation. Well, you just pointed out only one of them was an actual Adventist. The others were just vegan for ethical reasons. A lot of- Do I have to specifically point out every single one of them? That's a Seventh-day Adventist? Okay, Frank. Frank, can you actually point out an issue with their opinion paper? Like the actual paper rather than just assuming they're biased because of possible religious or ethical beliefs? Let's take a look. You said saturated fat and cholesterol bad, but not for babies, right? Well, no. Breast milk does have saturated fat and cholesterol, but it's a growing infant. The nutritional needs are different. So, are the nutritional needs of a growing infant different from a child, a pre-teen or someone through their early stages of life? Yeah. Do they then not need cholesterol and DHA for brain function? Well, no, DHA is a good thing, but as far as saturated fat and cholesterol goes, no. As an adult, you don't need to eat cholesterol. This is diabetes-related deaths from 1968 to 2010. From 1968 to 1980, diabetes-related deaths have gone down drastically. Okay, so, Frank, tell me what diet group has the lowest risk of type 2 diabetes? Well, let me finish what I was going to say here. I just want you to explain something for me, because I'm a little bit confused. Sure, sure. So, diabetes goes down sharply from 1968 to 1980. Okay, wait, wait, wait. This is the death point from diabetes, right? Diabetes deaths per million goes down from 1968 to 1982. Yeah, that's probably because of the use of medication and insulin, and then- Beef consumption went up drastically from 1960 to 1980. So, you think eating 30 pounds of beef per year has no impact on your lifestyle? Wait, what? I don't understand. Beef consumption per capita went from 63 in 1960 to almost over 91 in 1977. Over 30 pounds of meat per capita, well, per year, 30 pounds of meat per year, was consumed more by people. So, you're saying red meat is bad for you? No, I'm saying if red meat consumption goes up 30 pounds and diabetes deaths per million goes down, why would you say that red meat consumption or saturated fat is linked to anything negative when as soon as they stop eating red meat and red meat consumption starts going down, diabetes starts going up again? Well, it's okay. As we see, diabetes goes back down to 2018 to lower levels than it was in 1960. Okay, Frank, you don't think things like medication could affect this? But why would diabetes rates go up? Well, this is death rate from diabetes. This isn't actual prevalence of diabetes. Why would death rate of diabetes go up if our medication and our medical system has improved? Because of increasing rates of obesity and, yeah, I'd say it's mostly obesity. Okay, Frank, is this just some correlation you found or is this an actual study linking red meat consumption to decreased risk of death from type 2 diabetes? No, I was asking you how is it possible that red meat is so bad for you if people eat 30 more pounds of meat a year and diabetes goes down? Okay, well, Frank, this is just an average across the entire population. And is that actually consumption or is it production? That's consumption per capita. How much meat they eat per year? Okay, well, Frank, can you actually find me research showing that increased red meat intake is associated with lower risk of type 2 diabetes? Or death from type 2 diabetes, sorry? Can you show me a study that shows that meat consumption causes type 2 diabetes? Okay, well, yeah, I essentially can. So we actually know precisely what triggers type 2 diabetes. So if you take a look at this study, fatty acids and glucose lipotoxicity and the pathogens of type 2 diabetes. So it goes into detail about this here. Western diets rich in saturated fats cause obesity and insulin resistance and increased levels of circulating non-sterified free fatty acids. In addition, they contribute to beta cell failure and genetically predisposed individuals.   Poly and monounsaturated fats, on the other hand, don't do this. It's only saturated fat. Now there are plant sources of saturated fat like coconut oil, palm oil. But things like dairy, cheese, red meat, processed meats, they're the most, yeah, like what, you know, this guy's eating here. They're the most significant source of saturated fat in a typical diet. So that is actually the main cause of type 2 diabetes, saturated fat intake. There's also this really interesting paper here. So Richard, can you clarify why saturated fat intake is the number one cause of type 2 diabetes? Oh, okay. So like I just said, it basically kills off the insulin producing beta cell. Is it about saturated fat or is it about meat? Like I thought it was about meat. Yeah. And we were trying to control that meat. So saturated kills beta cells in the pancreas. That's what you're saying? Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. Saturated fat in the context of a standard American diet kills beta cells in the pancreas. If he wants me to speculate on them, I mean, all he's showing me is that saturated fat in the context of a Western diet causes health issues. And I would agree with that. That does not mean that because meat has saturated fat, that's completely ridiculous. Do you know the vitamin profile of raw grass-fed butter, Richard?  I said earlier, you said that cooking has shaped human evolution. But what foods would they have actually eaten in the Ice Age period? That was the majority of tens, hundreds, hundreds of thousands of years ago. What exact plant foods would they have been eating that they would have gotten nutrition from? And you said that you didn't really touch on the acidity of the stomach, the lack of enzymes like animals, ruminant animals actually have phytase as an enzyme in their digestive system, and they can utilize phytic acid in their bodies. They can actually digest the phosphorus and the nitrogen in the phytic acid. Oh, some of our ape ancestors ate meat and hunted meat. So the point I was making was there's no ape in existence that follows a carnivorous diet, a diet where it's low in carbohydrates, primarily consisting of animal flesh. I mean, I know I have long arms, but I don't look like an ape, right? The things I mentioned earlier, Richard, does Frank look like an ape? Answer, you have to answer the question.  Do I have five gallons of plant matter fermenting in my stomach? Does my stomach have an alkaline pH? Am I sitting in the woods chewing plants for 10 hours straight? Okay, I don't know what point you're trying to make. I'm kind of out there. So you're also claiming that plant-based fats are good for you? Yeah, polyaminoin saturated fats. And so generally foods that contain Omega-6 fatty, high amounts of Omega-6. Omega-3 and 6. But generally foods that have a very high Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio? No, not necessarily. What do you mean? Like, okay, if we're talking about pumpkin seeds, then yeah, they have a huge Omega-6 to 3 ratio. But hemp seeds. So what plant foods are you recommending people consume for healthy fats? For healthy fats. Avocados are fine. Walnuts, hemp seeds, I think are some of the most ideal. Almonds, pistachios, things like that.  Yeah, but they're shorter chain length. And they're not long chain fatty acids. Chain length matters. So if we're talking about long chain saturated fats, that would be found in coconut and palm oil. But that's, you know, I don't recommend eating those fats, obviously. So you don't recommend eating them? What? You don't recommend eating the long chain fats? You don't recommend eating the long chain fats, but you recommend eating the short chain fats? Yeah, long chain saturated fats. So things like coconut oil and palm oil. So we shouldn't consume those? Yeah, you should avoid those. You're saying it's okay to have avocados, walnuts, hemp seeds, almonds, pistachios? Yeah, yeah. So why do gorillas and ruminant animals ferment plant foods into long chain fatty acids? They don't. It's short chain fatty acids like butyrate. And we do that, too. Ruminants produce long chain fatty acids in their gut. That's not a, that's not a. Okay. Can you show us research for that? I'd like to see a study. I'm just curious. And really, I don't even care. This is about human health. This gene ELOVL6, which I'm assuming humans don't have, catalyzes the first and rate limiting reaction of the four reactions that constitute the long chain fatty acids, condensing enzyme elongates fatty acids. Basically gorillas have enzymes that catalyze the synthesis of unsaturated C16 long fatty acids and to a lesser extent C18. And those with low desaturation agree. So there's gene, this is so much more complicated than people make it out. Wait, sorry. Go back up to the top. Longation of very long chain fatty acids, protein 6 organism, western lowland gorilla, gene ELOVL6. I mean, this is something I just found. I don't understand what this has to do with. I'm just, I'm just making, I'm just making, I'm just saying, I'm just saying that you're saying that we shouldn't consume long chain fatty acids, but gorillas produce long chain fatty acids in their guts. So let me move on to something more. Well, wait, wait. That didn't have anything to do with them producing long chain fatty acids in their gut. I think my point is that gorillas produce, my point is that gorillas produce long chain fatty acids in their bodies and humans don't have the capability. So we do. So do we. Humans don't have the capability. Humans are not able to produce, humans cannot produce long chain fatty acids by gut fermentation. Okay. Well, that's that study you just linked. It had nothing to do with gut fermentation. My point is that ruminant animals have digestive capabilities. We're not ruminants. Long chain fatty. Yes, that is my point. We were not ruminants. My point is that ruminants are obtaining long chain fatty acids through their digestion, yet you're saying we shouldn't. Wait, wait. You're saying ruminant animals like horses and cows can, can produce long chain fatty acids through gut fermentation. No, their guts ferment it into certain chain fatty acids and then various enzymes that they produce because they have these enzymes and we don't change that into long chain fatty acids. Okay. So you're saying humans cannot produce long chain fatty acids on a run. Humans cannot ferment long chain fatty acids from plants. Okay. That's my point. So wait, why does that matter? I still haven't seen any evidence that ruminant animals even produce long chain fatty acids through like fermentation of fiber. You've just shown me one study on gorillas and gorillas aren't ruminants, by the way, and they have a gene that helps them produce long chain fatty acids. And if you read the abstract of the study, that was in relation to them just being able to create things like cell membranes. That's not a study. That's a, that's a mechanism of a gene. Right. Okay. That has nothing to do with fermentation. I don't, I don't want adults, I don't want adults much on this point. I think I made my point. You didn't really make a point. I didn't. We know that Omega-6 vegetable oils are a driver of coronary heart disease, but you're not recommending that, that we consume them. Yeah. I generally recommend staying away from like heated vegetable oils and just vegetable oil in general. Okay. Wait, go back to that previous study, Frank, about the heated vegetable oils.  So what did it, so what did it say? The other one, it was the other one, I think, the next one you moved to. This one? Yeah, I think. Okay. The point is that if you increase the intake of high linoleic vegetable oils and reduce animal fats, it increases all cause mortality and cardiovascular disease risk. Okay. Wait, this was from 2016. No, so no randomized control trials have been performed to prove the above interpretation. However, the opposite types of RCTs have been performed by increasing the intake of high linoleic vegetable oils and reducing that of animal fats, which resulted in increased CVD and all cause mortality. Okay. So, all right, you are aware that the American Heart Association did just come out with a report suggesting that based on the most recent randomized control trials, replacement of saturated fat with high poly and monounsaturated fats reduces all cause mortality risk, including cardiovascular disease mortality.  Okay. Well, that's not exactly the issue, Frank. How am I supposed to obtain nutrition from poly and monounsaturated fats? Well, the main issue is consuming too much saturated fat from animal sources and switching it over to plant sources of fat. There aren't really that many plant sources of fat that are very high in saturated fat. Most of the plant foods you mentioned do have high amounts. I mean, they have some degree of saturated fat. And if you're saying that poly-unsaturated and monounsaturated fats are good for you, saturated fats are bad, then what about... Okay. Well, Frank, tell me, does a block of cheese have more saturated fat than a cup of hemp seeds? Well, the point is what the food, the omega-3 to omega-6 ratio of the food determines the poly to monounsaturated fat ratio. Right, okay. So, if you're going to argue that, this doesn't make sense to me because you're arguing that we should consume monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats, but you can't consume them without consuming saturated fat, and but it's okay to consume short chain saturated fats? This doesn't make any sense to me, but okay. Frank, Frank, here's the thing.   Okay? So, that's basically the general guideline that the American Heart Association is going with, and that's based on the most recent randomized control trials. So, is that like, do you understand that? Yeah, you're just not showing me any evidence that... Just you keep relaying this back to the food, but you're not showing any evidence that any specific food is a problem. You're just trying to claim that saturated fat's the problem. Okay, so dietary fats and cardiovascular disease, a presidential advisory from the American Heart Association. You can link all the studies you want, but this is not... Listen, listen, listen. Let's, let me see. So, the effects of dietary saturated fat intake and its replacement by other fats of... So, sorry, sorry. In summary, randomized control trials that lowered intake of dietary saturated fat and replaced it with polyunsaturated vegetable oil reduced CVD by 30%, similar to the reduction achieved by statin treatment. And it goes on to talk about how this actually has a significant effect on cardiovascular disease mortality. Okay, I'm looking at this, but this is not a study. Okay, well, wait a second. Well, wait a second. No, it's not a study. It's basically, it's essentially a meta-analysis, but in summary, randomized control trials that lowered intake of dietary saturated fat and replaced it with polyunsaturated vegetable oil reduced cardiovascular disease by 30%. So, this isn't a 30% reduced risk by... This has actually reduced the rate of cardiovascular disease by 30%. That's not a study. Well, no, this is an, like this is basically a meta-analysis. Okay, so hold on. Let me find something one second. And I'll just link it in the chat here. So, everyone can... So, if you want the link, Frank. Also, you... No, I have it, but here's a picture of me eating a steak. As you can see, I am slightly happy. Because I am slightly happy, eating steak is good for you. Thank you. I don't know what point you're trying to make. What point are you trying to make, Frank? No, I'm saying I'm happy eating a steak. So, since I'm happy eating a steak, steak must be good for me, right? Okay, so that's a well-being, right? So, I guess what Frank's getting at is, Richard, there's a lot of talk about well-being and... No, what I'm getting at is, if you show me an opinion piece, that doesn't have any information that I can analyze. It doesn't matter. What you're saying is, this is what you're saying.  That's what you're telling me.  I do have, off the top of my head, I remember reading that study a couple of months ago and looking into the studies. And the assumption was that, if you reduce saturated fat in your diet, it reduces risk by 30%. But the study was actually done on cholesterol levels. So, this is what they did. If you replace animal fats with polyunsaturated fats, you will reduce your cholesterol by 30%. That was their basis. But what they drew that conclusion from was a relative risk of 1.3 in a study. They did it. That study showed a relative risk of 1.3 in that, the change in cholesterol. But a relative risk of 1.3 is below, it doesn't account for confounding factors. Okay, Frank. So, that study are on false assumptions. Frank, I really have no idea of what you're talking about because you're jabbering about complete nonsense. That doesn't make any sense. Okay. Let's see if the chat thinks that. Okay. So, anyway, if you want to actually look at some of the trials, clinical trials that use polyunsaturated fat replace saturated fat, reduce the incidence of CVD. Right. Okay. Explain to us what relative risk is because I don't think you understand what it is. Relative risk ratio? Explain what a relative risk is. It's demonstrating in the study, whatever they do, what it changes. So, if you have 100 people that eat, well, let's do 200. If you have a group of 200 people, 100 of them eat animal fat, 100 of them reduce their animal fat consumption by 20%. If there is an effect in 20% of that population or whatever the degree of change is, that's what the relative risk is looking at. So, if 20% more people have whatever association you're looking for, cardiovascular disease, if 20% more people have that in your study, then it's going to be a relative risk of 1.2. Okay. That's a very bad definition of relative risk. It's a pretty bad one, but it's... In epidemiology, risk ratio means the probability of an outcome. And so, for example, if a relative risk ratio of one, that means...  Sorry? Yeah.  So, that means if you have a relative risk of one, that means the exposure doesn't affect the outcome. So, basically, if we reduced saturated fat intake and it caused a heart attack risk ratio of one, that means the exposure reducing saturated fat didn't increase the... Didn't do anything. Didn't affect the outcome. Yeah, I said that five minutes ago. Okay. So, a relative risk ratio below one means that the exposure did affect the outcome and it reduced the frequency of occurrence of that outcome. So, I assumed that they increased saturated fat. That's why I was saying the inverse is reversed. But that doesn't really matter because they still found inverse associations on other aspects of the trial. I don't really...  There are no clear effects on stroke risk. Yeah. Okay. And those randomized control trials concluded that, yes, reducing saturated fat and replacing it with polyunsaturated fat reduced heart disease risk and risk of both fatal and non-fatal heart attack. So, that's what that paper showed. That's what all the evidence suggests so far. And that's what the statement that was just put out by the American Heart Association was based on. If the relative risk doesn't exceed a certain number, it doesn't account for other confounding factors in the lifestyle. No, no, no. No, that's not what it means. I'm not saying what anything means. I'm saying what relative risk constitutes. And I'm also saying that there were inverse associations with heart disease as well. They found people that had higher rates of heart disease when they reduced their animal saturated fat consumption. And there's both sides of the coin. That's actually the number one kind of heart disease among... So, people that consume... So, you're saying that people that consume saturated fat from red meat have higher rates of heart disease? Okay, well, vegans have lower rates of heart disease than meat eaters, typically. And I'd say, yeah, like based on what, one of the Harvard cohort studies on meat and mortality, red meat was associated with increased risk of all-cause mortality, including heart disease. So, you have a study showing that moderate red meat consumption causes heart disease? Let me... Okay, so I don't have this pulled up right now. Let me see if I can just quickly find it. Red meat and mortality results from two-perspective cohort studies. So, conclusions. Red meat consumption is associated with an increased risk of total cardiovascular disease and cancer mortality. Okay, isn't this epidemiology? That's epidemiology, right? Yes, yes, but again, if we go to the... So, if we go to the hierarchy of evidence here, look, we don't really need mechanistic data to really prove a point. And all Frank was asking me to do was show evidence if there's an actual study showing an association between red meat intake and increased risk of cardiovascular disease. And that's what the study found. So, red meat, including both fresh and processed meat, was associated with increased risk of all-cause mortality, including cardiovascular disease and cancer, and replacement of red meat with pretty much any other food source. They actually did a risk reduction analysis. I think that's what it is. So, if you replace red meat with fish, poultry, nuts, legumes, low-fat dairy, and whole grains, you will... That does correspond with reduced risk of 7% to 19% lower risk of mortality. I think that's all-cause mortality. Yeah, so... Now, I know this isn't my debate, but epidemiology... To say that epidemiology is valid and it's great, and it's the best thing. Dr. Joe Kahn was kind of using that same argument, right? Well, look, epidemiology isn't perfect. There are drawbacks, but you need epidemiology for a few things. Like, you can't just rely on mechanistic data. We got really bogged down in that last section.  No, Frank, let's go back to... Let's finish this off with more of a structured format. This is the Netherlands Coal Heart Study. This study demonstrated that cancer cases were highest among vegetarians and pescatarians, 11%. And significantly decreased with increased meat intake, one day per week to 7%. And two to five days of meat consumption per week to 5%. And then six to seven days per week to 4%. This was... This is the Netherlands Coal Heart Study Meat Investigation Coal Heart, Population-Based Coal Heart. Overrepresented with vegetarians, pescatarians, and low meat consumers. So did this actually have a vegan diet group? It had a vegetarian diet group, yes. Well, that's not the same thing as vegan. Let me double check if it was... Well, I don't think Frank's arguing specifically against vegan. I think he's arguing for the animal inclusive diet. These people... The point is these people removed. These were vegetarians. So... And then when they increased meat consumption in their diet, their cancer rates were reduced. What I want to touch... I mean, we touched on how... What plant foods would humans have had access to before 10,000 years ago? But there's no answer for that. We know that on both ends. So let me just talk on... I'm going to talk for the next few minutes on the bioavailability and explain why certain nutrients aren't available in a... Okay, great. ...face diet. Just let me interject here. I've seen you make this argument a lot about bioavailability. Why don't you just skip all that and show whether or not... Oh, no, no, no, no. This is kind of important. I only have like 30 more minutes left to...  Let Richard... Let him make his argument and then you can... Richard, piece by piece... I'd rather you just... I've heard this before. I'd rather you just show the data showing that vegans do, in fact, have higher rates of deficiency rather than talking about bioavailability. It's totally besides the point. I can show you... If you... Look, Richard, I think a better way to go about it, just respectfully, a better way to go about it was let him make his points and then you can pick it apart point by point if you think you can and make your points after. Well, I'd rather him just skip to the actual important bit that vegans do, in fact, have higher rates of deficiency. Well, he didn't say that yet. You're assuming what he's going to say. Let's let him make his argument, please. I've heard him do this. I know, but it's fine. But I want to give him five to 10 minutes. I wanted to make this as fair as possible. I'm just saying I don't have much time left and I'd rather him just hurry up and get to the actual important part. But what's important is what the argument he wants to make. So let's let him make his argument. I just want to let him make the argument. Sure, go ahead. Try to be respectful to everybody and then you can make your argument and he won't interrupt. Sure, go ahead. All right, please. I'm just going to mute you respectfully, muting you. I know you can unmute because I did that to you on your stream. All right, man. Okay, wait. Can you mute him? I'm not... I got five more minutes. I'm not listening. I'm going to take my headphones out. Richard, come on, man. We got to let's let him finish, man. No, no, Frank. Look, no, no, Frank. We got to let him finish and then you can make all your points. No, I don't have to let him finish. You can make all your points after he finishes. Please, Richard. He's wasting my time. I want to get to the important part. He keeps talking about phytates and how to inhibit absorption. So then you get to refute it after. No, show me the data showing that vegans have a higher rates of vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Let him finish his points and then you can make the points. Then you got to let him... Because I have to get to my end argument. Richard, you can make your point afterwards, man. Please, please. Let's just give him five more minutes and then you make your points and you can... If you want to refute that point, refute it, man. Yeah, but what I'm asking is what are the metrics for deficiency? Well, that's... What levels determine the deficiency? What are they using? Okay, well, you can read... I'm assuming it's the standard for blood work in Switzerland. So do you have any data showing that vegans have a significantly increased risk of vitamin A deficiency? Vitamin A deficiency? No, I can show you five mechanisms that literally prove that absorption. No, no, no. I don't care about mechanisms. That doesn't matter. Do you have any evidence that shows vegans are at higher risk of vitamin A deficiency? Do you want me to... I mean, I made my point on the vitamin A absorption. Well, no... I'm going to take a minute to show... I literally don't care about mechanisms. Show me whether or not... So why don't the mechanisms of how your body absorbs carotene matter? It doesn't matter if vegans are at a higher risk of vitamin A deficiency. So show us whether or not... Who is dictating that they're deficient? Who is dictating that they're deficient? You are claiming that vegans cannot get an adequate amount of a certain... No, I mean like what... Who determines what level of vitamin A means deficiency? It doesn't matter. Show me any study where that is reported. Show me any study where that is reported. My point... Show me any study where it was reported that vegans have a higher rate of vitamin A deficiency. Let me just jump in here real quick. So you want to see studies... You're saying that only the studies matter and Frank's saying look, the mechanisms are very important. The mechanisms matter. Because we're looking at actual health outcomes. If you can't actually show health outcome data, then that doesn't matter. You can talk about mechanisms all you want. If the health outcome data isn't any different, then the mechanisms don't matter. And according to the study, based on whatever standard they consider deficient, vegans were not at a higher risk of deficiency for vitamin A. So can you show me one single study that is reported? Vegans have higher rates of vitamin A deficiency. That wasn't my point. My point was... No, my point was that the RDAs might not be correct. And the reference ranges for what we're discussing might not be correct. Because the vitamin D3 RDA is incorrect. The vitamin D RDA isn't right. Okay, whatever. There are also RDAs... So what? What does that have to do with vegan versus vegetarian? Because there are also other RDAs that are not established like vitamin K that we know are vital for human health. The point is that the standards of deficiency that you're going by, they're open to human error and they are just for preventing deficiencies. They have nothing to do with ideal human health. So do you have any evidence at all that vegans have a higher risk of vitamin A deficiency? Or vegans tend to have a vitamin A status that is below ideal. And omnivores, they tend to have a vitamin A status that... The overarching point is that just because vegans aren't deficient in vitamin A doesn't mean that those are ideal levels. And I'm not saying that even the average person has adequate vitamin A levels. I'm saying that the metric you are using for vitamin A is so abysmally low that it doesn't matter in the context of a vegan diet. Okay, where's the evidence that the metric in the study, where they defined deficiency, that's abysmally low? I'll explain my point one more time. You didn't make a point. I didn't make a point. I went over the conversion rates of carotene. I went over that they're inhibited by gene polymorphisms. And I also went over that the flavonoids and the antioxidants inhibited the enzyme. So you're saying if I drink antifreeze and it converts to oxalic acid in my body and I die, that that's not a mechanism that matters? I just have to show the outcome that I died? That's a health outcome. What do you mean? Frank, we're not talking about antifreeze. We're talking about vitamin and nutrient status.  Okay, so if I eat broccoli, am I going to die? Because it's the same thing as antifreeze? Like what do you... Point is the toxicity of oxalates in the body and what they do. Well, broccoli doesn't, broccoli is very low oxalate. Spinach is very high oxalate, but broccoli is pretty low. How about this, Frank? Can you show me an association between bean and legume consumption, which is really high in phytates and increased risk of all-cause mortality? Here's a paper from The Lancet. Huge meta-analysis. The Lancet. We got the rich billionaire vegan girl funding the study. No, yeah, quiet. So here's a meta-analysis from The Lancet, carbohydrate quality and human health, a series of systematic reviews and meta-analysis. What they found was after... So this included 135 million person years of data from 185 prospective studies, 85 clinical trials with 4,635 adult participants. What they found was fiber intake massively reduced risk of all-cause mortality, type 2 diabetes, and even certain forms of cancer and also heart disease. So these high fiber foods like whole grains, oats, beans, lentils, green vegetables, they're all associated with decreased rates of all-cause mortality, including heart disease, diabetes, cancer. So if these foods that are so high in anti-nutrients oxalates are so bad for you, why can't you show me any health outcome data showing that eating these foods increases risk of all-cause mortality? You can't. And that's because there is no data showing that. All you do is mislead people by just talking about this... I can't show you that. I can't show you that. Let him show it. Richard, let's give him a couple minutes. Let's give him like a minute or two. Let me make... I'll make one quick point in about two minutes, okay? But it's got to be... Let's not go on tangent points. I won't. Respond to Richard's thing and stay on point. And Richard, please don't interrupt, man. If you can. I have to leave in like two minutes. Okay. It'll be less than two minutes. So we know phytic acid can chelate things like zinc and lower zinc in the body. Okay, great, great. What's the evidence? Show me the study showing that these foods... Are you going to let me go for two minutes or are you just going to postpone me so you don't have to respond to the point? You're just...  I have to leave in two minutes. You don't know what my point is. You're not making a point. I need health outcome data.  Show me the research. Richard, let's let him make a point. I have a study I'm going to show. I'm explaining this for the chat. I'm not explaining this for you. I'm explaining this partially for the chat as well. We are not the only people in this conversation. Frank, you shouldn't even be talking. Just find the study and put it on screen. I have a study I will show right now. Phytic acid inhibits zinc absorption. Zinc deficiency. Great, great, great. Convection to disease and mortality in the developing world. Great, not health outcome data. Great. Hold on, Richard. Let's... I'm going to mute you for a second. Let him finish, Richard, please. Okay, dude. No, no, I'm done. I'm done. The debate's over. I have to leave. I have to get work done. So thanks for having me. That's not health outcome data, Frank. I'll just say that. I asked you to show... I asked you to show data showing consumption of beans, greens, legumes, nuts, seeds, green vegetable consumption, if that's associated with all kinds of... I'm sorry. I don't just read abstract studies. I actually try to understand what goes on in the body. Thank you. You failed. Thanks. So thanks for the debate. Are you... Richard, are you done? Hey, man, do you have a closing statement before you leave? Do you have a closing statement? No, there's no closing statement. Frank is...  You lie.  So thank you for this.