So welcome everybody here to the Martin Siegel Theatre Center. My name is Frank Henschka and I'm the director of the Siegel Center. We bridge academia and professional theater, but especially international, global theater and American theater. And it's been a long tradition for us to invite writers, artists from around the world, from the planet. We think of a planetary consciousness now. All big problems in the world are planetary, we think, whether it's racism, violence against women, poverty. The climate catastrophe we live on. So this has been a very important part of us. And we have a long standing collaboration with theater artists from Europe, especially Eastern Europe. My great colleague, Daniel Gerald, the late Daniel Gerald, a great man of the theater, a great translator of Kiewicz and so many, many others. Published a journal which was called Slavic and Eastern European Theater over 25 years when there was very little information coming out. And when Poland also was looked at as a superpower in theater and still is very powerful country with a great tradition. And we were really honored to connect to it. So we thank the Polish Cultural Institute for collaborating with that, Tomek. And we want, of course, to welcome Martina with us. So a special round of applause for a great writer who comes here. Who comes here and it's always awkward of course to be on display to be in front of people you have to say something if you have done it so often but I would like to take this evening to really think about you know why do we do art. What does it mean why do we write and we have with us a great artist. Sometimes successful artists, not always the same combination. Sometimes successful ones are not great and great ones are not successful. And, and so I think this is a really great opportunity to spend time in the room with someone who is really has thought about the dedicated her life to theater and a very difficult circumstance maybe we talk a little bit. The solutions she found where she says this is how I want to tell my story. Some people write poems, some do essays, some are journalists, and some do sculpture and some write plays and we come and look to it and it's a wonderful expression of artistic inspiration of mankind. This is a very special moment and I hope we will have somewhere to make with your time we need great theater great writers we also do need great audiences so really thank you for coming out on a Monday after Thanksgiving. We have a golden rule at the Segal Center, never ever do an event Monday after Thanksgiving, because nobody comes. We did events here once. We had three or five people even before going up and we said never again, but Martina could only come tonight we changed it from another date. And, and, but you know I'm very impressed, but also would like to think how around we are actually live streamed by a nonprofit US based theater platform a fantastic partner for over 1015 years right in the way when they started we collaborated. We welcome our viewers from how around thank you for taking the time. So we're going to start now once I sit down, we're going to start our conversation if you have a cell phone take it out for a moment. I'll do two, and make sure that little thing is off or power or switch off whatever it says, and we use a microphone because it's recorded otherwise, you know often voice would carry so I'm Martina first of all, thank you for coming. Yeah, I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. So how did you get here tonight. A train. A train. Where do you live. I mean, I'm uptown in the Heights, uptown in the Heights. So, tell us a little bit. What are you working on at the moment and first of all, it does everybody know about Martina do is someone who hasn't. Maybe you meant that more poetically but how did you get here and I was like the a train. Yes. No, I meant it. Yeah, but also you know she's of course one of the great temporary playwrights here in America, highly, if you read the web page buyer which we you know don't have to go through your highly awarded highly acclaimed with many of her plays. So, maybe said what, what, how did your day start today what are you working on this morning I started with a zoom in London, New York. With my collaborators for the great I'm doing an adaptation of the great Gatsby with Florence Welch from Florence the machine and Thomas Bartlett or dog man is his other is his other musical persona Florence Florence Florence Florence the machine. The dark days are not over. We, it's, yeah, they, they spent about a month making some more new music and so we had a listening session went over a new draft that started at 9am and then I did more that I did more writing on the draft. Gosh, what are the emails like I said it's I feel like most of every single day is different. Sometimes right now it's a lot of a lot of musical work in preparation for the premier is going to be happening in June and at ART. And it's my first musical that's getting produced so I think I'm learning as I go I didn't I hadn't written a libretto until I started working on this.  And this way, you get to be less lonely because there's somebody there with you so like when I am in the muck.  I hate writing but I love being in the rehearsal room I love collaborating with people which is why I do theater. If I had all the right answers I would write novels in a room by myself and then just, you know, ship them off but I love the coming together of people various backgrounds and experiences to to ask questions of something that I'm obsessed with. The first draft of a play or anything as a hypothesis I don't know if it's as true as it could be and then I bring it to other people. And we ask it questions and we work together and they bring they bring up ideas that make me that that that make me think of new things and it's just it's such a dynamic way of making and I find it so enlivening for my imagination so I suffer through the writing, the lonely writing so that I can be in the in the room with other people. Let's talk about the cost of writing.  Is that more of the writers.  So how do you write the work on a computer or you at home. How does it work. How do you do it. I've been asked I've been asked the question of what do you need to write and I mean some people will say oh I need my special pencil I need my like I just need some urgency and some usually some somebody who has wronged me or has wronged a character that I feel deeply about. And so there's just, you know, I can write at any time of the day as long as I know why I'm writing. One to battery. It's screaming as it's it's a exclamation point dead batteries. Yeah, no I just need so sometimes it can be just the urgency and the purpose of writing a scene that I then kind of figure out how they how these scenes are speaking to each other. I have experienced two kinds of plays and two kinds of playwriting one that comes right from the front of the brain almost like a dotted line to the page and I read it really quickly. My first play ironbound I wrote in five days and sanctuary city was in three days because I was so for I just canceled everything I told people that I was sick and I stayed home and I and I wrote them because I was afraid of losing them. And there are some plays that if they come from the back of the brain, where you just kind of keep pulling at something that isn't that that you can't quite see. Oh, now. This is a fun game. It is. It was amazing this was like, as soon as you got handed the microphone mind died. It's fantastic.  Yeah, so. So, what are your what are your earliest memories of art or theater what what did you see first. As in Poland, my grandfather was a painter, but being a painter and Poland under certain regime meant you, you know, had very limited in what you what you could make and so he worked on commission. But I would, I would see, he had a little tiny room that was his sort of sacred room, where oftentimes he would paint family members or historical portraits and like these epic beautiful heroes on horses and landscapes and the natural world.  And so I witnessed somebody's like they he he needed to paint like he needed to breathe. And I, I found that so I want to be like him, I looked up to him and so then I tried to draw and paint. And I think it was. Oh, I saw something and was moved by I saw somebody's love of the thing. So that felt so core to who they were. And he just felt more alive than other people did. And maybe that was I had a, I had a kinship with him. So that was, yeah, my first was watching was seeing what he in a tiny tiny little apartment in Poland, covered with paintings that he that he had made about things that he loved. So it was kind of social realist paintings or what school was. Yeah, pretty. Yeah, realism. I know, I know nothing about visual arts. I thought I would be a visual artist because at one point and I like applied to Cooper Union and I was like I'll be a visual artist again Cooper Union and they were like no and so it's like fine. I will go somewhere else and meant to be a playwright. But interesting in a way also kind of realistic portraits and not an abstract school or expressionist one. And I think of who knows psychoanalysis this is fun, where he would take the people that matter to him and make, and you know, in case them in something immortal in paintings and maybe this is something that I feel like I committed to as well as the people that I care about wanting to, and my bones are dust like this is all that's going to be left of me is these words hopefully if they're good if people find use in them, and they're in my hope for them is that they're, they're elongating and elevating the lives of people that I that I was or that I knew that historically have been not given as much of a voice or as big of a platform or I seen as with as much dignity and humor and sexuality and all the things that nuance that that I have seen them to have growing up. What, what does it mean to you, the writing when did you say I don't do painting, like my grandfather, I paint right with my pen or your typewriter or your computer I don't know how you started writing. How did I start writing by, by, well, I mean to be I grew up with a lot of domestic violence when we first moved to the country. And so I would have to offer you when you came here. I hate that question. You know why, because people are ready to judge you for whether you're enough or which is which is great I actually like answering the question with the question because I think when you were born in another country. And then you come to this, you're always you have one foot in one world one foot in another world, even if you came really I came really young which is why I had this American mouth.  But I just as I just don't feel enough in either world and so when I, I never answer the people have like found out how what what you what how old I was when I came.  And I, I feel frustrated by somebody else defining me, which is why I don't give them any ammunition. And then I forgot your question before. The question was, in a way, when did you started writing stuff was it poetry. He was everything old stories of theater. Yeah, when we when we. So when my I came with my mom, I was, I was young after the wall fell she left me in Poland at first and she came to America to check it out got pregnant was like came back to Poland was like you mean this anchor baby are moving to America when that was still a thing. And we, she worked in factories and clean houses. And we ended up getting in a situation where we were living in a house of a lot of domestic violence were there for about 12 years. And I would have to find quiet activities to do after school to that was the safest way to to maneuver in that house and so I would lock myself in my bedroom for hours until my mom came home. And I would draw and I would paint and I would write and so I get these assignments from school to write two pages and come in with 25 my poor public school teachers were like, we love you. They don't pay us enough to read 25 pages. So I, one of my teachers so she was so kind she saw that I had a desire to mission, maybe didn't know why there was a desire but she saw I had a desire to make and and to reach out beyond beyond myself and she found a playwriting competition that was happening in New Jersey, I didn't know what the hell play was. I thought it was a film that you couldn't afford to make which not wrong, not untrue, not untrue in America, in America. And so I was like, I'll write a play. It was so bad, I'm sure. And I had a high production value because I thought I was running a movie. And, but the more the most meaningful thing was that this teacher would stay after school with me for hours, while I performed every role at for many days on over and over for her and she. She actually gave me a safe space to go to. And, and the gift and encouragement of her attention.  And I, it's that, that kind of give, give, take, gifting of attention.  And so that, you know, that's, I started writing plays, I guess and that from the few years later I started working for an adult literacy program that would teach immigrant parents and their preschool age children English together as an after school program and how we would do that is we would write these skits and perform them for the class. We would write skits in English and Spanish and Polish and there was a Portuguese writer and the Chinese Mandarin writer who, and we would perform them for this for this group and I didn't realize that that was playwriting that was theater. They were they were supposed to just be like what would you say at the cafe what would you say at the bank if you're going to give these to give these parents and their kids sort of muscle memory English. I took it way I took it very far and I was like there was like a murder heist at the bank, and there was like an affair at the cafe, and they were like they just need to know how to order a sandwich it's not that serious. And I, I, but again there was like, it was it felt useful. There was there was something that was being exchanged and transferred and there was a use of I was teaching, I was, I was offering practice in English. It made it, it all felt like utilitarian in a way that didn't feel like that took it out of some kind of like highfalutin art that was for no that was just for me like, I never thought of it as I'm going to write these diary entries and and have you know people perform that my wanted it them to feel. I wanted it to be a generous act that felt like it was of use, which maybe is a weird way to look at art is wanting to have a use. Now, so I think that's a good idea that to be of use and to do meaningful things. What did you, you said you were drawing you're writing what did you read. What did I read, I read everything I read my mother used to work at a she used to work at a book factory. Also so she would bring a lot of cookie factory and a book factory and she would bring a lot of cookies and books cookies and books cookies and books and all the fall the free shit you bought home. She also when she would work at a, when she was cleaning houses she would bring whatever magazines and pamphlets and things that people were leaving for recycling so it was a lot of a lot of collected, you know, found, found texts, I guess I would call them.  I didn't start reading plays until college. And my first experience with immigrant fiction was also around that time I was so moved to to encounter the first book was a interpreter of Mali's by Junpa Lahiri. And it was about, you know, it was a it was a collection of short stories by this Bengali American writer that I felt so connected to, because it was, she's such such a different background but I just the fact that there was immigrant fiction was so moving to me I thought oh maybe then there's there's space for my stories. I think it sort of showed me that we're more alike than we are dissimilar. And our, and our specific specificity is beautiful, but that there's actually a lot of commonality and a lot and a lot of the immigrant the immigrant experience even that feels like a, a limiting term because the immigrant experience can be so different based on how you came what status you were whether what gender you put you present as. So were you sponsored over, were you undocumented, do you, where's the academic all these things but there's some that there's so many things that we still can connect over that that I felt encouraged by that so I read. I also read a lot of store I connected to a lot of stories about discarded people. So like the outsiders with my favorite book. I love that someone just like you know it's like people who they're all orphans, like they themselves makeshift families I love makeshift families because that's narratives because I think that's what immigrants do as well like they have to make their own worlds and in their in the new world and a lot of working class narratives Dorothy Allison. And Diaz. Yeah, so things, a lot of things. I was a very long the answer to your question I'm so sorry. That's, that's, that's important to see what, what, you know, what inspired you and what you, what you were thinking. You know, it's kind of anti sentimental some of those, but it's a realistic kind of hyper realistic or not but a realistic representation of the world a style that is in a way close to television or film. There is a New York School of playwriting that is closer in a way to surrealism or as closer to abstract writing is to fantastical imagination like a civil camps or, or many others. How, how, how did you come to decision this is the play I want to write six women in a basement in Queens or, you know, to relationship between caregivers husband and wife. So how did you come to the decision. I'll paint like your grandfather in a realistic way. I don't think it's so I think actually there's one of the one of the most inspiring playwrights that I, I love is Connor McPherson and he writes realism in a sense of like there's this is how gravity works and this is the this is the class of people that are in this very very specific place, but there's something above and containing them that feels otherworldly. And beyond that is at least endeavoring to transcend people's very kind of quotidian lives that I'm really maybe this is like being raised, you know, Catholic very bad Catholic bad bad.  There's something beyond that I think I'm really attracted to and try to or kind of. So it's like realism plus something that I think I because I, I don't, I wouldn't even call myself realism I don't know.  Lands of dream dream worlds nightmares. I think the things that. Oh, I was reading. This is so interesting. I never know how to say this, this writer's name but Ursula Gwyn is this is how you say the she has this carrier bag theory do you all know this. Everyone's very smart here I just realized what this was. Oh, oh, it's fantastic. Okay, so it was it was. Oh my gosh, how do I explain the carrier bag theory she has a theory that female writing and female stories, a lot of female characters are the holders of a narrative. And how they move through time somebody else will correct me and be smart about this how they how they move through their nerves as they collect and they gather.  It's more of a collection and a gathering of experiences that they then carry. And I, when I when I, somebody was responding to one of my plays by by bringing this up and I, and I love that so much and I feel like this is also what women do is we hold the culture and we hold the stories we, you know, pass on the stories of our of our families and we are the keepers of, like, you know, like, it's your grandmother's food that you like think about as as as part of your identity and your past. And so I, I think that there's a carrier bag theory of within within my place as well of people holding things beyond time and space that if everything has been stripped of you, if everything's been taken from you, you can take your stories. And that's what's so people and memories and and experiences are collected. So, yes, realism plus I think there's something beyond most and why I wrote about caregivers and, and you know, various women and living in a basement apartment temporarily is, I will tend to write composites of people that I know or I grew up with. There's something usually personal that's happening for me that I will that will start. My imagination will start churning based on something I've heard an anecdote a piece of music some piece of dialogue somebody said, or an image I've seen that that like keys up that thing that is personal. And has me start to, I'll hear voices were so writers are so strange.  And so I will hear those I never write biographies for characters I listen to how they talk and they sort of tell me where they're, where they're from and what they, what things I need to discover about them.  It's so, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Or else you'll be wandering in the park it's usually when I'm the last place they come as I'm looking at a computer and I'm being like come to me, and they will resist. But I'll be moving through the day and something will show itself to show itself to me I'll hear something that then makes me feel like I can. There's there's propulsion there's something more.  And so there's something that's at the end of the making of a play that my subconscious is protecting me from looking at in the present, probably because it wants me to have a healthy life. And so I, but we have so many ways of hiding from ourselves and each other, which is protective but it's also very limiting and deadly and destructive. And so the making of a play is asking you to look at that thing and a good play has no bullshit. And we have so many ways to be to have be full of bullshit in our daily in our daily lives that the plays are resisting about a good plays and I go through the process of making them so I can figure out how to be a fuller more honest version of myself. Still on it, I am still working on it, I don't know but yes I've answered, I've said so many things I don't know if I answered any of your questions. So do you also see things or you hear things. But I, but I am, I see a stage. I've asked, I've asked students like when they're writing plays do they want do they see the movie version of it. And I think I always see a stage like where are they coming from. I find it the most at the most like evocative atmospheres to be in a in an empty theater. And just imagining who could be who could walk on and what could they say. And it's a very Peter Brooks but I just think that that's so it's so thrilling. I'm reminded by a word. That's so it's, it's so powerful to me. So yeah, I'll hear things I'll see things. I won't know who a character is necessarily until they speak. No bios. So you kind of, you know, a medium you write the things from things you experience you see so the strong contemporary school of play is documentary theater with like verbatim interviews collage of existing material. How, how about your work is anything do you do you interview someone or you just listen to how the, what do you think about that work. I bless like I don't, I would find it so inhibiting to try to to try to represent an actual specific person. Also in terms of research, I will usually know enough about something, because I've experienced it in some in some way, I was close to it and I'll write it and then I'll read and then our research after to make sure I've I've covered my basis and made it as full as possible because I think when I've over researched. I get so obsessed with the like cold trivia that then that's all there is is the cool trivia and it feels like showing off and that's stupid and and distancing instead of asking myself in the writing Why am I interested in it keeps it alive as opposed to doing homework. Why am I interested in pursuing this topic this person this relationship this dynamic.  A lot of times, because of the characters I'm writing their political circumstances are just they're inherent to who they are like I'm sanctuary their immigration status dictates what they're a what what they're able to do with the web access to how they are thinking about themselves in the world it's I'm interested in like how that manifests in psychology and and and like the actions that we the the the the impulses and the sabotage like the sanctuary city. I thought it was so I'm trying to make a series out of sanctuary city, mostly because I want to continue to investigate what it is for somebody to grow up in a place that doesn't want them that makes them feel welcome. What does that do to every part of the insides of a person and how they then have to, maybe, maybe feel like they have to prove themselves. This is also why I'm obsessed with the great Gatsby because I feel like Gatsby is a working class character and this is being streamed on how around so I can't reveal the secrets but Gatsby is very close to me. People know the novel maybe I would buy for what I'm doing. That is that is very interesting to think about you know what does it really mean and I think this is what is so brilliant in your place that you really spend time with them for a moment. Also in these kind of sharp dialogue dialogues you know cut they cut dangerous characters, you know they would, I think harm other characters in other place you know so they know what they want what they don't want or they have a history you know that is pushing them you can feel the weight of it. You say in a way you have a foot in two countries as Poland there is America you know I think you mentioned somewhere what if my mom would have gone to the UK what place would I be writing which is an interesting question how much is you and how much is actually the context of you but in a way you're close to your mother or let's say a mother America but the father father Poland or your father is missing. How does that that influence in a way your work and and is Poland in a way I guess you live here is missing how does that manifest itself in your work. I never met my father. And so, in a way, I didn't have a thing to miss. I think people who grew up with two parents and then one parent left have it harder, because they know what to miss they have specific things that they, you know, will no longer be part of their life. So I grew up in a world of mostly women and mostly single mothers we moved to America. Everybody was working class mostly from various, mostly immigrants from various places is very multicultural. And so I understood America to be a place where everyone's from somewhere else, and they're always by women with accents. And I feel very comfortable in that world. And to the point that my actually I just I just came back from visiting my sister who just has she's a 19 month old. And I watch her and her husband and I'm like, well, my God, there's a man here. What do you do. This is fascinating you also change the diaper Wow. So everything is like a plus. And, and, but I, but I am curious about who he's some I know about who my father was and he stayed in Poland. And I am curious about how much is how much is nature nurture what is you know what's what's what who might, who might he be that I am also, but I guess I just do that my plays. I live I have grown up with my mother and incredibly close to her but there's still things she will not tell me. I have to know if anybody else has this experience as like a first gen person but like your parents don't tell you anything. My it has only served my mother to not to say less.  And so you can be, you can see your parent every day and still not know actually who they are who or who you are in relation to them so maybe I find I find solace in this I might never know our parents are our great mysteries, whether we see them or we don't. And Poland, I feel more close to an identity as a first gen immigrant than specifically to Poland. And even though I, that's the first language I grew up in. And I think it's mostly because I felt connected to people from various parts of the world growing up there, which of which one of those pockets was was Polish and Poland. And so I don't feel like I'm not connected it just actually feels like it is one thing that is a part of other other identities and cultures that I that I grew up in you know because of the, because of the domestic violence that I would often run. I have to run away to friends houses and so I ended up learning Spanish as at a young age because I was hanging out with. I was hanging out with my Puerto Rican families of Puerto Rican friends families house or my like Mexican friends families house and it was just this and finding commonalities that that that that we had, though I my whole family still in Poland, my mom is here my sister was born, the anchor baby, the anchor baby was born here in Newark. And I've gone also because of the sort of controlling nature of my stepfather we weren't able to go back very often. And so that eroded a lot of connection early on that I then tried to rebuild once I was able to go to go back to Poland and start to rebuild those connections because at first it was we didn't have enough money to go back. I was at first it was we were being controlled and weren't able to go back. And then it was, I decided to be an artist, and I had to make the choice of will I spend my, my limited resources toward time to write and or will I use it to go visit my family in another country. And I had like a breakdown a few years ago and I realized oh I didn't even I accidentally became American by making the choice to be an artist, because I was making the choice to use that the money and the time to study to make instead of devoting it to family which I guess is the, which is the maybe the universal female work work, you know work family work family that we that we have to make so I, I wish I spoke better Polish, I speak it and I can write it because there's this accent in it that I when I go back when I go to Poland, I fit in until I open my mouth, and they're like shoes American. But I, but I, I wish I was, I want to be a part of it like there was a, there was a, there was a debate on Facebook, a few years ago, amongst the Polish artists. There was the year that public of ski won the Oscar, the culture could won the book or the book prize before the Nobel. And then it was the year that I won the Pulitzer. And so there was a heated debate on Facebook about, do I count as a Polish person in this like a year of extraordinary Polish achievements. I later on found the woman who started the debate, and I went up to her in Poland and said some words, but what words. But I did get in her face. Because I just, I'm like, what the fuck, why, why would you define you don't know me.  I do belong, we should we all wouldn't it be nicer if we all just felt like we belong I think we'd have a lot. The world would be a lot less destructive if we if we just tried to make each other belong and, and find the commonalities in each other and, and respect and lift up our, our differences. Thanks friend. Yeah, we once had the great writer I think director Karl Henkel rucks here and he grew up in foster families actually in five foster homes. And he said he had no family at all. He was from his biological family, and he said so he would have imaginations.  And so I think there's a really you know where we when we make work constantly. We when we make a decision you're doing violence, right to like the various of other possibilities that could have existed and so we all have a bias and we all have a limit our imagination and our experiences are limited and so like when you make, you're making choices constantly. This is why writing is so agonizing because, you know, you have to, we have to make so many decisions as it is in life. And so it's a constant form of decision making which can feel fluid and and lovely and there's flow at times but sometimes it can be agonizing because you have to want you're just looking at which way right which way do I go. So I, I think that for Queen specifically it was a lot of the, they were composites of the people that I grew up with who were from various places in the world that that helped my mother. When my, when my, what I, what I am interested in that play as somebody who's doing a second immigration second migration you first come from the country of your birth to America. It's in your community that you find here rejects you. What is what's what's beautiful. Belonging in groups are beautiful but also inherent to groups is exclusion, because it means some people cannot be a part of it and so what happens if you've come from one place to a new place but that place rejects you and you have to find a new community that might be with people who seemingly don't have as much in common with with you when my mom lost my stepfather. She was rejected from the Polish community because they were, they were his friends, and she was leaving and she was rejecting him and so then she had to find help in people who are not Polish and so I thought that that was beautiful. Some people, some Polish people, Polish Americans helped her, but, but, but it was also that she was reaching out to other people and finding commonalities of amongst various women mostly women to help to help her through who like brought us close you like in the shelter and who let us crash on their couch and things like that that that was. I also think that this is this this kind of caregiving is something I'm interested in specifically in a in a country in America in this country that doesn't that makes policy that that doesn't want everybody to equally thrive. Like they're there. You push about by your own bootstraps and you can absolutely achieve your American dream but it's not level. We don't all start in the same place and we have, you know, we have our obstacles are very are very different and so it's, but there's a, there can be this shame then that that we feel if we don't achieve these dreams because we're there because what we're supposed to America's promised we've said that this that we should be able to and what's wrong with us if we don't and I think that that can like build up in toxicity. And also means that the ways that this country doesn't take care of everybody puts extra pressure on the relationships in that person's life that aren't caring for them in the way that the potential of the country could be. And that's something that makeshift families.  I find really interesting I think it's in Queens and it's in a lot of plays of how we have the pressure of having to care for one another when the country doesn't want us to be doesn't want us all to win. What does it mean if you reject it and on top of it don't see a future and perhaps really don't have a future you know so what does it really mean that realization about your place I mean you mentioned I think once Tom stopper and who mentioned that you I like that idea goes to the checkpoint at the airport and you check your suitcase and you say what's in there and then they say actually you have other stuff in there you know you didn't tell us and you forget. So what is in your place what is the other stuff do you do you I mean one feels a big lot of love, you know, and your spiritual sense or what is what is in there. Why do you write to feel less alone, I think, I think most of the, the, the, the, the underlying Stanislavski and verb underneath this to vanquish loneliness that they're that they're trying to do I feel like I put together plays stories and I offer them to other people and go you maybe is this you as well. Because I, I, I, I've never been more moved than in the theater, ever. I just feel so much more connected to everybody to everybody around me. Being in the audience of a theater and making theater and so I just don't know. I don't know another way to feel closer to fellow my fellow human beings then to, then to, to make something with them for them. That is that is that is hopefully also holding all of us for it for like a 10 you know for two hours in the dark theater that that I, you know, I don't, I don't have the answers no one has the answers we don't we I think part of going to the theater is like, we know don't know what has the answers and this don't can we bond up can we bond about this, and then go out into the, you know, leave the dark theater and go out into the world feeling feelings, at least, you know, not alone in our confusion. Do I, or at this point I don't know. It's too late to be a lawyer. Right is for justice is for justice also it's for it's for money. Like, this is I don't.     And so this is what this is, you know, it's, it's something of the soul that I need to do but it's also like this is, it seems that this is what I have to offer. And I want to be as generous as I possibly can be and what I'm able to make that's outside myself that is in service of something, something larger that makes us all ultimately, you know, be less destructive toward each other. I mean, I don't think it's just luck I think it's also an extraordinary talent tenacity. You know, as people say about pop songs sometimes you know many people write a song about love they have lots of melodies but sometimes a song touches you, and nobody knows why if people would know. There are some actually are they sometimes really do know, but most but the time not you you wrote something you a world that you describe resonates and people react to see themselves but also see the humor as you often talk about in it. So come to your writing it feels I'm hard to believe the three days or four days. Maybe you thought about it a lot check off is known as you to think three months and then he wrote it in a week. So I don't believe you write it in three days so how does your editing go. Oh, I love I love rewriting. I love it so much I hate to write it three days and then you edit it once or two or three or I don't even see it as editing I see it as like finding opportunities for expansion. It feels like it's like cutting and changing and like trying to make some kind of perfect thing which we don't even know what that is. Perfecting which I don't feel like is what rewriting, even though that's the word is rewriting it's a development we you know in the theater we develop plays and that's what it that's what it feels like it's this this. Here's my, the scaffolding for an idea, or the, the majority of a story, and then in collaboration with other people and asking a questions, finding opportunities for where it could be more full. Where, where, where are their moments when people, I could let somebody in into something more and just kind of it does this. So, but the hardest thing is getting all the stuff on the, the, the page I can rewrite forever that's just that's joyful for me, or develop forever, because it means other people. But for them of the place as you say iron bound or saying truth, it really came out five days for iron bound. And what Arthur Miller said about death of a salesman, he said, you know, of course it was his entire life, but he wrote it out into it, which is amazing.   It's one of the few places on planet Earth where people talk to each other, they really have to listen and to talk, and they have to make decisions like agreements and stick to it. And that has an end to it. It's about everything, but also nothing. It's a game, but a great game. And I like sports a lot, but it is the greatest game, I think, that you can play in a way. And it's not done in the editing room like film and television, even how powerful it is for the audience member. So you bring, let's say, Queens or, I don't know, cost of living, you have all the text there and then actors improvise a little bit, change the word here or there. Oh, no. How does it? No, no, no. We live as something in the post-traumatic world, you know, where the player doesn't often sit in the little room, tags, everything up, Clifford Odette's, you know, had to go upstairs in the attic for the group theater, write the play and finish it, you know, and then it was done. So how do you work in that new 21st century way of playwriting? I, yeah, actors don't improvise for me. I mean, I wish they could just write it for me. That'd be super great. You improvise, no. No, no. Sometimes I wish. I'm like, what actor? What if you were like, we're in this scene? What would you do?  I need actors to do exactly what's on the page, because if they are generous and fully committing themselves to it and it's not working, I know it's my fault. And I have to fix it. But if they don't do what's on the page, again, when my bones are just, I won't know if it's them improvising. Sometimes they'll be like a mistake or a discovery and I'm like, oh, that's great. That's a fantastic opportunity. Maybe we could go this way. But if they don't do what's on the page, I won't know whether I need to, what I need to rewrite, what I need to develop. So it's really, it's a lot, it's asking actors to trust and say that this is, at least let's try this first. And then we'll see if they do it, if that's the, if that's the first go and it doesn't feel, you know, we will talk about it and we'll adjust things. I'll learn from their first impulses and choices what the, what the. I mean this word, but what the prejudice or what the assumption is about something so that then I can, you know, maneuver around it or give set an actor on a course early that feels right like there's a in the opening of cost of living. I learned early on I had to, well, one I had to make an honest laugh in the first 30 seconds of the play or they won't know that they can. They won't feel like they're given permission to because of the subject matter of some of the plays. And so, because to, you know, to laugh is to disarm is to feel welcome like I try. I humor is such like some some people need humor because that's their ticket into connection with other with other people it's a constant like let me let me be let me be with you. But I learned because the first monologue of cost of living is about like alcoholism and death and like lots of you know it's about a sad things. I had to write that this character would have made a great uncle. And that's how we, that's how you he's somebody who actually I have it right here, I'm going to just going to read it. Yeah, we advertise that we had, I just want the character description this is most unemployed truck driver he looks out of place here.  Anything he tells you he'll be entertaining or funny or interesting because he knows you're not obligated to stay and to listen to him. When he slips into sadness, he bounces back fast. He would have made a great uncle. I think that is how I feel in the world as well. I feel like I have to earn my place all the time. If I entertain somebody, maybe I will be it will, I will be worthy of their attention I think I have to, you know, there's no no one is obligated anybody could leave we could all leave right now and bless you for not. You know, but it's, it's, it's, it's active. It's trying to it's trying to reach to stay to because if you're here then you'll see me in there for a matter. And, and I, I don't even know what the question you asked me at first. I think it's the, the, the, the, your scenes they are so crystal clear written or something like sharp as a knife, it's clear like an icicle and but also light like a bird's foot someone said that about poetry or your work has that. So the question was, you know, how do you how do you get there and is it through working with the actors or not. You do it, but so you in the rehearsal room all the time, but they change actually very little of the text. It is, or you give me suggestions. Yeah, I'll keep, I'll keep filling it out and I, you know, there'll be number of development processes where there'd be a reading or there'd be a workshop where, you know, and different actors will come in with their very specific and different life experiences and, you know, tastes and so the choices that they're making inform what I'm learning I'm learning what they're I'm learning about the character through their interpretation and if it doesn't feel right, then I think I have to go back and adjust it to give them to give them the, the tools to come as close to this version of a character that I have in my, in my, in my mind, that is also essentially something that that will move past my under my imagination of that character. When I another reason why I love the theater is, and I'm specifically writing for the theater and being in those spaces is because of these. A lot of these characters are composites of people I know it feels like resurrecting ghosts. It feels like getting to live in a space with people who might no longer be here versions of them like the way that's this person made a joke or their circumstances I feel like it's extending the life of people that were meaningful to me. And so there's some, there's, there's some bit of like that, but then it's candid off to an actor and they make it completely different to the point that then now it's a character who's who I love I don't have children but I imagine this is what it's like when someone has a teenager we're like oh my God you have your own personality that's fantastic, but you're still like at your core, you know, like my child.  But, but it's, yeah it's I it's um, it, I want to be as clear about my intentions and the reasons for had the reasons for writing the play be a parent in the play without, because I can't run to, you know, the production in Dallas or Phoenix and be like, Oh, it's like this, like this has to this has to communicate as clearly as I can. What is important to, to me, like, and, and the, and the people in the circumstances that I'm that I'm that I'm writing about and the rest is a lot is kind of a for interpretation. But there's, I am, I went, I went to see the Polish production of cost of living.  And they changed it, and I learned that it felt like they, they thought that they were giving me a gift of they were like, well, we fixed it and I was like, no, why all I, all I have or my like when I'm, if I were check off and I were dead for so long, or Shakespeare and we've had versions of these stories that we know like when you're making a change to Uncle Vanya, you know what that changes because you know Uncle Vanya. When you've changed a new play, it doesn't get the chance to live on its own and speak for itself and be the be be the, the show why the reason that this writer took the took the time and agony to write it and so what did they want to share. So I was, it was, I was very sad. They restored the text since then because I was so sad. But I direct, but do you want to know I don't know I don't want to talk to know I don't want to manage people know I like being behind the table. I would like to direct in film because it seems like that's the only way that you have power over what story is shared. And that's the whole reason to do the thing is most likely to remedy something which felt dishonest about an experience that you feel close to is to have an autonomy but not in theater now I because the playwright, the playwright has the final word I'd rather just stay and be the be the playwright and I like that. I like having like a wing person to be like what do you think and having a partner who then is much more eloquent about talking to actors and I am. So, no thank you. So we're coming closer we're going to open up so what are the great plays you saw the great. What what are the writers you look up to, or who influenced you. I love Connor McPherson August Wilson. Dominique Marie so I think people I think I love writers who love their characters. I respect that so much. I can feel their, they're trying to make these characters alive, and I value being moved in the theater. I ideas are fine ideas are for essays to me like ideas will come but I want to feel that my entire body. In connection with another human being I want to cry, want to cry as my favorite thing is to circle crying the theater. I don't cry in moments of kindness. I don't cry sadness I cry when someone's generous. When when there's like a gift offered to somebody.  But I, yeah I want to I also like like feeling like I'm in these very specific personal worlds that feel like you know you're entering like a snow globe of an experience and you're that you're into who also the knowledge is somebody who does who does that Paula Vogel. Carol Churchill in her in reverse, you know, in a very different way but but also, but yeah. Also I love that like the fairy man I love these epic Arthur Miller these like these, these stories of, of quote every day people that are expanded to the epic that I that I love. Things like I'm sure once I leave here I'll come up with seven other writers that I didn't mention I'll feel really bad but those are the ones we serve with. Yeah, that's I mean I agree. The audience should cry not the actors on stage right yeah yeah the audience yes make you cry. That's much better and that means something is working and that's great acting if you can do that so we slowly going to open up but I thank you for sharing. Really, and I would like to remind everybody there are a lot, a lot of people who want to write plays. I think 15,000 students each year in America graduate from academies to write something that works that touches, you know that resonates also, you know, with your story, you know how personally you had to fight for it how hard it was. So, you know, we really respect that and that you stuck to that and that you created something incredibly beautiful coming out of that. That that even torture, you know where you tell the truth and in Michael frame who once was here has said, you know, a good play is every character is right. Yes. Yes, it's so it's people in the right versus people in the right. Yeah, so this inch very different thinking instead of kind of a moralizing educational theater and I think your place also have that and you know you know going on with your HBO series Florence the musical. That's going to come up, you know so really so wonderful to see that also the good prevails and that as you point out not always also lack involved but still as a tremendous talent and a tremendous tremendous amount of work and dedication which of course you didn't talk about so much tonight but I can month sees that and one knows that. So really, thank you and I think it's a privilege for all of us to spend some time with such a great artists who we can also follow will be interesting what she's going to do what's just going to be a play in five years. Okay, I'm so scared. Play. It's a play. It's called a play. We play, you know, gold only color gold only said, do we play ladies and gentlemen or not. You know, that's so it but you do and participate in the game in a way also of life so but let's open up to the audience and let's hope that this is not the moment where the the mic goes out. You have to speak in it because you know we have how run so if you have a question or comment it's one of the rare moments where you can ask a great artist something and she might even say something. Please, please I just want to be useful if you're like how do I like survive in the American theater and like what the hell do for survival whatever please please like. It's a quick question you mentioned movies film.  I am and the reason why is because I really enjoy health insurance. I love it. The WGA is fantastic. But also the thing about the, what is beautiful about the theater is that there's so you know it's so we're all in the same space together but it's also what is troubling about the theaters that we all have to have access to that same space we have to have to pay the babysitter to like come take the train to then come to the pay for the tickets to you know we get a snack to go what like it's it's it can be exclusionary to the the access to a story because of just how the you know especially in this situation in America. So what I love about film is, you can just I can send a link to my family in Poland, I can send a link to my friend who's nursing her child at home, who you know because now the time or the money to come out and so then they can see the stories that are potentially about them. So I'm very yes I'm doing three films right now, one that was supposed to be shot in October, because of the strike is not going to be shot in March. So there are two of them are adaptations and one is. It's just how around whatever one I'm adapting costs of living to a film that I'm writing right now. I hope I hope to get here and then it's great to be here. Thanks for sharing all your experiences and I'm a playwright and very curious about how do you know when it's done because I just feel like it's very hard to know until someone tells you it's done like how do you decide like no no no no more rewrites this is the definitive version. Sometimes because people like the actors are start rebelling and they need to see you need to stop writing. But I feel like when you can stand behind what it's saying, when there's enough people who. Oh, I had, I forget who said this to me shoot the it was a play a playwright themselves was. Imagine what is the your play has just ended the audience has filtered out. What is the worst thing somebody could say that your play is about as they're waiting for the train, and if you can make sure that that's not what your play is doing. You can, you can at least say this is what I wanted to say this was if they can read your urgency and intention, legibly enough.    I would never rewrite the play that I wrote when I was 23 years old you know like I'm not that person anymore. It's not worth you know leaving alone because that it's it's just that was that was up a certain time but if you feel like you've, you can people can read your intention that's so that that's the that then then you then you can let it let it go. I think but you know, it's hard. Thank you for coming my name is fun days. You mentioned that your situation may you go into your room and devote your time to quiet activity so you have time to watch TV or go to the movies as much do you think if you had had the access to more TV and your spare time you will have started with TV and film versus theater. I was a latchkey kid so it was like my you know the the TV was on on mute. I was reading the closed captions so that I wouldn't you know, it inspired the eye of my stepfather.  I would have made more sense for me to have see have become a television or a or a screenwriter because those are the things that I had access to because they were the cheaper things you know we had free. There was the free cable I needed to buy a television have electricity or not capable but basic, you know, basic TV, or, you know, you'd go to the movies for like two for one Tuesdays, you know, and and and see Jurassic Park for $7 versus a play I would play until I was 18 years old, or a piece of theater until I was 18 years old. And I think I started doing it, when I got to college because I fell in love with that little family that you make when you're in the rehearsal room that are that are obsessing with you for a month about the about the same thing and you have a guaranteed sort of people to see at the same time in the same place for somebody who like didn't have much stability I'm like this is amazing.  But I, but it, but I, I think I had it's interesting the, the things that the consumers have more access to are actually harder to for the, for the makers to have access to making, I guess in that in that way like it was easier for me, I had more access to making theater because I don't have to buy equipment. I don't have a camera, but I could, you know, have people in a room and so I think I, I, I, yeah accidentally found the more rarefied of the art of the art making from the, from the consumer side but it should have been probably TV and film. Rebecca question or comment. Yep. Yay, playwriting questions I love it. Let's know about playwriting questions let's go. Okay, so the debate, I guess, between outlining versus just letting it all out because, you know, I'm, I feel like everyone's like, oh, if you have, if you want to write a proper play you have to, you have to outline and you have to know what's, you know what the beats are etc what the dramatic arc is and I've never really been able to do that so I'm just curious what your experience is with that of the outlining versus just the impulse and just getting it on the page. They're lying to you. They're lying to you. I have never outlined, I've never outlined it because I feel like if I've outlined it I've written it and so I'm like, well, just read the outline. Like I, you know, I feel like I've processed. Also you just don't know you don't know what surprises are in store for you as your, what characters are going to come in from the, from, you know, the periphery of your subconscious and then it's going to the place can be actually about be about them. So I think you're in a headspace when you're writing and you're and you're making you're in the world and you're hearing the voices. There's a different headspace from the outline, like the outline is a to do list and that's just a different part of the brain the imagination. I've, I've, I've known friends who will be when you when you do TV and film like they want the beat sheet, but certain writers who like cannot work that way they'll actually have written the whole episode, or the whole screenplay and then like give the beat to the producers, because they needed to, they needed didn't know what it was going to be until they until they went through the writing, the writing part of it. So now I, yeah, I've never, I've never outlined, but I wish I feel like I would be a better television writer, I was better at it so it's whatever it's I think it's also whatever works for you. But there's there's no roadmap to any of to any, you know, any of what we're what we're doing and part of the writers and artists life is figuring out the ways that you can organize your life such that you can access those kind of like magical sacred moments of making and and and igniting your imagination, however they work for you. Most, most like writing books I've read the own, they have no good advice, but the most like yeah, it's hard and then you're just so happy to like have had to maybe like, yes, I also struggling like so much.  Welcome, you know, one last question. I have no experience with writing or, or, or theater, actually, but I'm just curious, how do you find your producers for this play for the play that, you know, for your for your upcoming play like how, how did that come about I'm some sometimes a commercial producer will like if they especially if there's a property that like a piece of IP or, you know, like you're adapting a book like they may have the rights to it and so they're looking for writers based on like your your your work before when I when I didn't know anybody. I, I looked at playwrights bios, and I looked at all the awards that they want and the fellowships that they want and I researched them and was like, can I apply. And I applied to all the ones that I could apply for, which then meant I was doing interviews with producers or producing organizations and meeting people. I think there's the in the playwrights brain and time time pie chart I think it's divided into threes. One is only one is writing the other the other two are administrative and networking and meeting people and networking can have like a bad connotation but it's just like, Hello friend, I am I am this person, could we be could we work together in some in some way and and and seeing if there's a partnership of mutual benefit and art making that you could that you could that you could have with this other person, but it's you can you can write the best plays but if nobody knows, you know, good play falls in the woods and, you know, do you know, do you don't know you don't have any friends and who are producers, then, well, so I, I, yeah, I would like I would, I would, I would, that thief, like what other people one see if I could see if I can get them I would go to readings for that were free, and I would introduce myself to people who I found their faces on the internet and was like, Oh, you're the litter manager great I'm going to go up to you. I'm going to introduce myself because there is their job to find you. They should get to know you because you might be the next great writer and wouldn't wouldn't they feel like little shits if they didn't say hello to you. When you went up to them and made their job so much easier by being like here this is who I am and what I do. And going to friends, making other friends and the actors directors dramaturgs and going to their things and supporting them, and then creating your tribe of people that you can make with if nobody is giving is opening the gate for you to have a stage you can make with other collaborators that will that will bring that will potentially bring you along with them.  I found that there is a there's a you just you just have to risk and put yourself out there to just know to start to come to know people. And then eventually as you as you amass more working more people see it then the producers start to come to you. So you see, it's all very easy. Here you go. Well, maybe you know, as a closing moment you read a little bit more from a monologue or something from from the cost of living what you have with us and I would like to thank you. I mean, also for coming back you have been at the Segal before so we're very happy about that. And I just wanted to say one of the lines which I liked from the creams play it said they have problems to America, right. So this is so baby tell us a little bit about you read a little bit more from this about the. The monologue of cost of living. Yeah, something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they do have problems to America. Well, this is, you know, from an American. I, this is maybe my. It's always incredible to hear the right poets read their poems the writers with their it's a very different tone so something to really listen to. It's so exposing. I can never do what actors do. You guys are magical. Okay, so this is the opening monologue of cost of living.  That's from the Bible.    Who deserves that. The week from her birthday seven days. We're going to go to Maine for her birthday. See the trees. I leave the lights on now. Every room smoke signal. I'm still here. Holidays are hard. Christmas next week. That's going to be hard. But listen to me.  I start talking gloom. I get it in the wallet. Let me buy you a drink. What do you want?  What do you want? Go ahead. Me myself personally. I'm off it.   You are grateful for that day and you are ready. That day is the day it's all going to change. Signs are real.  Jesus H man Utah is gorgeous and no one even knows. But then I got popped for a DUI in a car blocks from home lost my CDL Schitts Creek. So I got the memories and some unemployment. That life is good for people. I was thankful for every day the anybody at the truck or robots that life is good. The road sky the scenery. Except the loneliness except in the case of all the you know loneliness. This was what my wife was good for not that this was the only thing.  And a person is going to be a person even if they're married that's a lesson that's a lesson for your life right there. But still I am. I still still loved her. She would text me on the road at night in motels which alone can be can drum up certain feelings this is why there's Bibles in motels. We're all of us in motels on the road to somewhere we are not yet. And that makes us feel feelings. Roads are dark in America's long. And I mean this wasn't poetry these texts this wasn't like you know poetry. Thinking of you. How's things. Your check came today. Off to bed. Good night. That little buzz in my pocket around the nightstand that's the rope gets tossed down to you at the bottom of that well when the thoughts come you know the thoughts that loneliness the text they're like climb on up out of there you know get up out of those thoughts you know because thinking of you. Truckers got wild imaginations lots of time to think just not much time to do much with all we've been thinking except what don't take time at all. And what's cheap. Salud. She taught me that. And sleep and we sleep. If we can. So I started texting her after she passed. Like every few days thinking of you. Off to bed. Hope you're well. Miss you. I had lied a little too job hunts going good and joke my love to Jesus slip in a good word. What are you wearing. It was nice to talk to think of her I mean it was just a nice thing that happened. I owe you another by the way for the gloom. So I was hoping that for like community service they give me a gig that was around people like bringing food to old people or like being in plays.  I probably shouldn't be here at a at St. Macy's here in Williamsburg here are you young people here with your fashions with your natural wine. Here this is shelter this for now.  And I'm sitting in my house my apartment my home and I'm looking at the boxes, all the boxes of her stuff.   And that's when the phone buzzes on the table. I didn't scream but should I jumped thinking of you to. I may or may not have pissed myself at that moment it's my wife.  I realize, I realize her number. They gave away her number. She's officially gone. And I'm straight up tempted right then why not it's not even seven why not buzz thing buzzes again where are you. I wonder how long this person's got my messages for. I wonder if I should be embarrassed. I sent her a picture one time of a fence I painted. Everything I said buzz I'm at St. Macy's. This is not my wife is not my wife I know because come on this number one make it clear you that I don't think this but in that moment. In that moment I was comforted to know she's with the good guys with St. Macy, and that heaven is Catholic buzz.  You buzz you. It's seven o'clock in Bay on the snow just started falling and I wonder what to do this is not my wife this is not on my wife. But, but honestly, I don't know what else to do except I do I do know what else I could do to do I always know what else I could do but maybe, maybe something.  I'm in a cab okay my car on somebody I'm on a path I'm on the El but El. I'm here. I'm here and nobody looks like my wife, or at me. Except you. You're, you're real nice. You're a nice guy man. I'm been buzzed yet texted since so maybe whoever you know. She's gone. Man, a ghost ever stood you up man.   I say that genuinely man, even though she stood me up the punk I'm playing. I found someone here and ended up she's having a real good night right now, whatever that means to her. I hope she, I hope she found someone to share the night with. That's important. It seemed like she really needs someone to talk to. It's important.  I'm paying, please. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. We have a little line. There's one I'm sticking around.


Because you went to Kilimanjaro and you took people who were all people who could hardly walk and stuff Amazing what I can teach now. Yeah, how long did it take to teach them to do to go this walk just for afternoons? Imagine imagine Take the comparison what physiologically is possible in mountaineering and Say the Kilimanjaro, which is almost six kilometers high Takes about five to nine and days Fully dressed with a lot of layers because it's very cold up there Yeah, and then still takes five to nine days and then only 40% will succeed Summit yes, those are the numbers we did it and We did it in 20 and a half our Hours that is four and a half hours more than one day in shorts And wait a minute and not only me The oldest participant Without former experience in mountaineering suffering from Lyme's disease He did it in 31 hours in his shorts He has no Lyme's disease anymore. He has a deep connection inside He used his mind consciously and his breathing and he did it 76 years old suffering from Lyme's disease in shorts no former Experience in mountaineering. He did it He's healing a lot of people with Lyme's disease right now because he found this deep connection How many days did I train with them for afternoons?


Tom here from Orange Systems and I've talked about Fortinet before and I think it's worth talking about them again. They're clearly one of the most popular firewalls out there. It's weird how many people ask me questions or want me to review them but I don't really use them that often. We do have clients with them. I'm familiar with the platform and many of those clients do have support contracts so we're always making sure that they keep them up-to-date but up-to-date doesn't necessarily mean secure and this is kind of what I wanna talk about. My goal here is to raise a little bit of awareness but I don't want you just to hear this from me or say, Tom, you're just biased because you like other firewalls better than Fortinet. It's really specifically to talk about the security researchers, all the research and the CVEs and you're going, well, lots of people have CVEs, Tom. It's not the number of CVEs. It's what those CVEs are and that's exactly what I wanna talk about. So we're gonna start going back with a little bit of history of some of the problems with Fortinet and bring you all the way up here to June of 2023 with some of the most recent problems with Fortinet and it's really looking like they just don't do a good job of security testing and vetting their products. So let's dive into this. And we're gonna start here with something that turned into a talk at a Black Hat Conference all the way in May of 2019 and I encourage you to watch that. These are all gonna be linked over in my forum post so you can dive deeper into the history of this but this really shows not just the CVE but the coding that went into creating this which is just dumb. You can only read it in Fortinet's own words here so the security researcher has a much more in depth right up but let's just read exactly what Fortinet wrote so from their own right up here it was also disclosed and fixed in May of 2019 that FortiOS included a magic string value that had previously created a request of a customer to enable users to implement a password change process when said password was expiring that function had inadvertently been bundled into the general FortiOS release. This is greatly concerning and we're gonna come back to this in terms of the latest right up because when you have something like this this is to me what should be a full stop at Fortinet of hey, let's really dive in and examine our coding processes and is there any other magic backdoors that security researchers might find? Hopefully there's some good code sanitation maybe even a whole rewrite of this subsystem but nonetheless that doesn't appear to be what's happening here. Because of our ability we're talking about today is CVE 202327997 found by security researchers and this goes through the instant analysis we're gonna jump over to the security research in a moment here. This is the part that kind of gave me a chuckle of Volt Typhoon campaign. If you're not familiar this is a campaign that there's a pretty large write up which I'll link to down below as well that talks about the threat actors targeting infrastructure through exploiting once again Fortinet SSL VPNs because you're very popular with many government entities and critical infrastructure and this new bug has nothing to do with the Volt Typhoon bug so they're making sure that people know that oh no this is a completely different SSL VPN vulnerability than the latest one that happened here in June. Once again we're establishing kind of a history of Fortinet just not doing a good job of being proactive but more reactive to pressures in the market. Which brings us to the published research here the Exordigate pre-authentication around code execution for that particular CVE this was published on Tuesday June of 2023. Now they walk you through everything here and of course I encourage people to read all of this this is really good security research going through the steps on here and of course it's called Exordigate because they didn't do things in a most secure way using XOR but let's scroll down to the bottom because one of the things I really wanna comment one there's gonna be a few notes for red teamers that will probably be updated at a later date hopefully when you're watching this that later date has passed and enough of these systems have patched that more details will be available but I really wanna highlight something these security researchers said and it kinda brought me to making this video was just a reminder here and this is what they said after being reported in April their response was prompt and cordial so yes Fortinet did actively engage with them and did fix the problem but we remain however doubtful that they ever ran a property security assessment on the appliance considering number of quality vulnerabilities that were found from 2019 today and by the way that magic backdoor one was also referenced in there because some of that research was what had them poking further at that specific aspect of the Fortinet and that's generally how this research goes when they know there's a specific spot that there's a problem as someone finds the first problem with it there frequently is other researchers go oh that technique probably means even if they patch it there's another way I can poke at it and you'll see more and more because it's like once that little wedge has been found into the system there'll be more and more security researchers that will keep poking at that element and this should be a cue for vendors to go just rewrite this section we have some flaws in it we patched and mitigated but obviously more flaws have been found we patched and mitigated more flaws are found at some point companies and Fortinet's a big enough company and I think it afford the engineering level it would take to do this should be just rewriting this whole system and fixing it because I know there's a lot of Fortinet fans who are going to be thumbs downing this video leaving their comments saying Tom you're just biased but I let the history speak for itself the security researchers and read all of these different write ups and go yeah that does seem to be a coincidence here that they keep finding flaws in the same areas of these Fortinet and Fortinet has this weird thing and even has a history of putting some hard coded credentials in besides the magic back door there's that whole link I have for all of the other different CVEs that have occurred before and that's still not all of them and I'm willing to bet that sometime in the future maybe the future where you're watching this where you're finding this video and going wait it's 2024 and I'm still talking about the latest CVE and a Fortinet SSL VPN Tom you're right they didn't take the time to fix it or I hope for a better future where the Fortinet goes hey I have enough market pressure from all the people that use my products which do include many of my clients we have lots of co-managed IT clients that use these and I would like to see them not having problems so why rip out the thing you know why not stay with Fortinet because many of my internal IT teams you work with know it really well they're happy with the product they're unhappy every time they see it in the news but I'd like them not to see it in the news and hopefully this pressures Fortinet and other security researchers saying things like we don't really think you do a good job we'll kind of force the company to do a good job so to me that's the outcome I'm not here just to trash a product I'm here to hopefully raise awareness which will then have you Fortinet users raising awareness to Fortinet go ahead can you fix this because we hate when people on YouTube kind of dump on products and we hate when security researchers run around finding more and more problems with your system or even worse when threat actors exploit those systems and then cause chaos inside of all of our networks nonetheless love hearing from you leave your comments and thoughts down below like and subscribe to see more content on this I'm hoping to not do another Fortinet VPN video anytime soon that's actually my goal here I don't want them to be broken I want it to be fixed and we can move on to other more interesting things nonetheless head over to the comments section to leave a comment your thoughts on this however my forums if you want to engage with me on a more in-depth discussion on this or other topics on this channel and thanks you