very good evening to you and welcome to entertainment news right here on Y254 TV. If you're joining us for the first time, the hashtag is Y254 Updates. Now my name is Felene, you can find me at Felene June across all social media platforms. Now join us right now and let's have some fun until maybe around 7.40, right?   Let's meet them. Let's start with our very own Mwangis, as we call him. I don't know the name. The Mwangis, it's time to give them back to us. We have a newbie on the show. This is his first time on the show. Hi, what's up? How are you doing? Hey, what's up? How are you? I'm fine. How are you? Ready? Yeah, let's talk about this. Right. Just go ahead and introduce yourself. I'm Richie. I'm a straight up of Y254. I'm not going to be discussing entertainment. Awesome. Right. And we have the noise maker himself right here, in person and in spirit. He's been away because I'm the only one who came up here to introduce you. Call you away. Okay. What are you trying to do with that? No, I'm trying to do it. No, I'm trying to swim in to my camera. Call me the only jailor of Fulimboko, the noise maker. Eastern Central Africa. I'm back again. When you don't want to say that Fulimboko is a poor man, you know what I mean? I know that I'm a juicy Russian. But what I know is that I'm a Shensi. But you know what I'm trying to say is that I'm still here. Yes. I can't even get him. I can't. I can't. I can't. Now the hashtag is under the Agora Fé條 updates that's on Facebook and Twitter. And of course, tag me Artfaging and tag us at whitefefraprotannel as well. Now let's go ahead to our first story. In our country of Varshal, Dennisy, toonby on Wednesday morning panned a lovely poem to former TV girl Jackie Maribé. In a lovely birthday poem, it toonby described Jackie as a fire on top of a mountain and went ahead to confirm how strong their friendship is. Kelty however did not waste time as they went ahead to troll him saying that he should ask her rather out already and stop using poems because they're not working so I'm a dancer anyway this guy should just like quit you can't take Jackie out Jackie is way out of your league like the players in the game I think Jackie and Dennis might actually be good friends and sit on another level no no no my problem is this this fire on the mountain that kind of poem you write that for your friends? if your friends are not fans then who are they? let's say I'm a kid if you're not a fan of K.O.T. then I'm sorry I'm too much I don't know I don't know I don't know I was scared I was scared you were scared Dennis half you boy child Dennis you're a beautiful girl you're a beautiful girl Dennis and the rest are beautiful I'm not a fan of this I'm not a fan of that I'm a fan of that I don't know how I can pull off if I don't do it Yes, come on, I haven't seen you in two months. No, I haven't seen you in two months. I haven't seen you in two months. I haven't seen you in two months. I am the dancehall. Come, I am here. All right, guys. The hashtag to get on is white. If I for updates, talk to us and we'll love it when you talk to us, we'll love to hear from you. Now, on to another story where Ugandan man by the name Peter Kadama was angry to learn that his wife had slaughtered the only chicken stabbed for Christmas Day. It is alleged that the man kicked and whipped the wife severely, leaving her for dead because of the incidence. The woman is currently receiving medical treatment at Boudaka Health Center said Joseph Gadimba a local information official. Ugandan's, Ugandan's, Ugandan's. But hey, hey, it's almost Christmas. You can see we have a Christmas tree right here. We're super excited. But, do you know, is that enough? If you want to know the reason, you can use it. You can also use it as a crusader. Do you know, Ugandan just bloomed as western. Some were there. Yeah, we'll have a turn. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. And then this guy, out of nowhere, the wife takes the chicken, near Christmas. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. Nam-e-a-sul. So, if you don't come here we'll end up in a desert weer. Nam-e-a-sul. Right,çosur. So,the tension is gone and why does he come back? okay,就是 the violence incident, in different places. I will say, I will eat and drink to make it into a healthy diet. Sillio, can you tell us what you guys have chosen to do after son's death? We need to go to the toilet, so we don't eat our food. We should decide the winner. We have got the winner and the winner is Immondo. Immondo is a mixed word. Immondo is a mixed word. So I am on the line. Immondo is not a mixed word. Immondo is not a mixed word. I hear you, I understand you. Anyway, so I'm not going to move on, I'm just going to move on to another story. So I'm not going to move on to another story. Now, a video on meeting a video of an elderly woman dancing to a hit song by a Gangadon artist, Sailor's, went viral on social media recently. In the video, the woman is singing, showing off her moves only associated with a younger generation. The recording has received mass reactions from social media users who praised the granny's energy while dancing to Peke Jang. You guys have seen the video. What do you think about that video? Gangadon to the world. Gangadon to the world. But it's a good thing. I'm happy that she has that vibe. She's enjoying herself. That's the thing. When you're having music that you can groove to, enjoy the music. I don't care what type of music she was actually dancing to. The fact that at her age, she was dancing to something is just enough. Before I started dancing to Gangadon, I watched a video of an elderly woman dancing to a hit song by a Gangadon artist. But I was really enjoying what she was doing. Until then, I saw her dancing to Gangadon. It's actually Peke Jang. She had the groove. She said she was going to go to Jibam. That's the thing. What was Jibam? It was Christmas. Gangadon to the world. She's a granny. She's a granny now. Peke Jang to the world. Side to side. We'll get to you. She said, you can't stop reggae. You can't stop Gangadon. That's a new one. You can't stop Gangadon. Clearly for that woman. You can't stop her. I've got your influences. I know they are. Even Dukunanda.  It's like, what is happening? At least Anganya Ejiako. He's the same. You might be Peke Jang. I've even noticed that the ladies, the Inama Inama, Wakilala, their status. The muscle pulls. Where are you getting these all from? You've been away for three weeks and nothing changed. By the way, I'm not a choreographer. I don't have any experience. You have to change your dancing styles. Because the more you're Peke Jang, you're hurting your bones. That's why I'm a straight. I don't know some...  It's a grandma we are talking about. I know. I'm not a choreographer. I'm not a choreographer. I'm not a choreographer. I'm not a choreographer.  I'm not a choreographer. I'm not a choreographer. I'm not a choreographer. I'm not a choreographer. I'm not a choreographer. But, where are you going to be? What are you? I just thought that the bones are broken... they're not broken. Do you think I'm a fool if I'm a bad domino.   Since we're having too much fun, we're going to do this Guys, we're going to take a very very very short commercial break Come right back, the hashtag is White Fair for Updates Stay with us Welcome back and thank you so much for staying with us We appreciate you the hashtag is White Fair for Updates And this is entertainment news right here on White Fair for TV Now let's move on to another story Now Nairobi Pastor James Nganga has clapped back at rapper King Kaka for throwing shed at him And his congregation in his latest poetic composition Wajinganini Nganga mispronounced Kaka's name calling him stupid and that his mother is his girlfriend I don't want to talk about the situation that I'm in right now I'm in Kasi Kasi Kani Kaka Kaka now This is a commander He's here now He's here now He's here now Hallelujah I'm going to write a poem for you My mother is my girlfriend It's not actually a song. It's more of a spoken word, right?  Like he actually, he was offended. So he was just like Retirating Okay, I'll just go back to Nga. First, he needs to get his, okay There's a problem with whoever advices or tells Nga who has said something about him Like there's just a problem. Either he gets it wrong how he pronouns it or he just does not even know what he's saying So he has to respond But you know Nga Nga should actually take take up the fact that people are trying to Should be grateful that King Kakak actually recognizes him But Nga Nga has always been controversial Yes, but he's just trying to write on to Kiki All right, we'll get this order Bites, bites I'm not right to, I'm not right to not kick his in here You know, I'm just trying to slide You look at it Peter, you're not going to come and book Nga Nga's in the story So you're not going to have to come and push all it out, by the way We are sorry What are your thoughts?  What do you mean he's not a Pristanganga of Nenno? What do you mean he's not a Pristanganga of Nenno? He's a Pristanganga, evangelism. What do you mean he's not a Pristanganga of Nenno? Everyone is going to be scared. not the cartels yeah so personally it's a high-time please now come back change your career you can come to a kiki come to entertainment as you talk about kiki in here let it be the same norm Kono come here and say the idea come sir at least it's not easy where's the easy way when the the past itself passed to not pastor passed to thank you actually Alisha Jinaldin is a titan he's no longer called pastor and I'm able to see to general commander Nga Nga you've got to do the mujuwa not like we judge in second yes sir we're gonna move to another exciting story now a young british man named Jack struck up an unlikely friendship with an 88 year old retired nurse named Violet in a new york airport Violet was traveling to see her daughter in london and was booked into economy while jack was flying back to british capital in upper class however once they boarded the same plane jack found Violet and swapped their seats so that she could experience the comforts of upper class since that has been her lifelong dream the story was shared on facebook by a virgin atlantic flight attendant who said they were her favorite clients ever now so there are these two guys so modern in zai actually the guy helping is a white man right um zai um he like she's an elderly black woman so at least humanity humanity is still there at least there's some nice people out there since when you come out here what are your thoughts you can't blame anyone what are you talking about what are you talking about you know business uh What do you want me to do? No, I want to be a pilot. I am a pilot, I am a student. Because I don't eat anything. You don't eat anything? No, I don't eat anything.  I'm not a pilot. I'm not a Canadian. I'm not a Canadian. I'm a first class student. I'm a pilot. You're missing the point. I'm a first class student.  Anyway, what are your thoughts? This was Christmas for that woman. I know you left her a birthday present. Exactly right. It's a Christmas, you gave her the last Christmas present. Yes, I told you I have a Christmas tree. We're in that room. All right. Danny is whongy. You know, nurses, there are people who actually do a lot of work. So what he did to that lady was actually deserving. A nurse is a very important person. When she was in the hospital, one of the other interacted with the nurse Even during your birth One of the other Even in the middle, if it was a nurse In one of the other So doing that to that lady Is actually very... I think she was very good She was very good She always wanted to fly there So she got her dream Yeah, her dream was accomplished At 80, 80 years You know what that what tells you Never give up, don't give up on your dreams Because she's a lady and I'm supporting you What if it was a man? Same thing Then when you're missing the point The high-five is why to trade for objects Let's move on to the other story Now, Kenyan comedian Jigush Had earlier on shared photos of a house Which was still under construction But the wife shared a photo of a complete mansion Indicating they will be moving in soon The two lovebirds were once struggling And even when days without food Allegedly But they thank God for His grace And aren't you happy for them guys? Like Saeho Menjegam mansion As in all Kona La Lanja Now it's comedy and Jigush Now, you know, honestly YouTube Zao and the Kidogo Kidogo Income They put together, they don't have a mansion We're happy, right? Yeah, too sure Yes, mangy Yeah When they are sick Who's young again? Who's young again? Kamati Too young Wakabine Wakabine has stood by Jigush Right Through thick and thin All not thin and thin Let me take this No Right, so I just You're teaching everyone Anyway, you're saying you're on joke and laughing at joke Okay, sorry But anyway, she's shown us what we... I feel that that's how ladies should be able to handle their men Right Because as successful, they say behind every successful man There's a woman Behind And actually, the woman you marry Defines what you become Right So this is actually a true definition of that Yeah This is Wakabine I'm not saying that Jigush would not have been successful alone But her input Whatever small, however big And you know, Wakabine was not... She's not from a struggling family But Jigush was struggling But she believes in him How cool And here they are Here they are You're excited as well, right? What's up? It's our Basi We understand Amen Jigush Yeah Jigush When you see him, you just feel happy So it's actually happy to see him And to be happy It's glad We're glad We're glad Because we're in the industry and we're happy See you all He's like a comedian He's like a comedian He's like a model A model, that's hope A model For a comedian Where? Where? No He's like a comedian Not believing Jigush He's the only general in Boko And he's one of the best See what he's saying? He's like a model No Oh, finally Have you had something nice to say? About someone If you don't understand If you don't understand I'll do it I'll do it Alright, but you're happy for them So what are your remarks? What do you have to say Now, before we end Because time is not on our side We have to get out of here What do you have to tell the guys at home? What do you mean by saying that? Oh, and remember your social media pages As you are there Kakasumura, thank you so much At least, I don't know if you know What do you call Bofu? But I don't know if it's the 12th DCI Or if it's Kupenda Thank you so much Tell me the only general in Boko Till next time, Majama We love you Merry Christmas And happy new year Right My last words is Kinkaka, umefanakasumzuri When people are talking about it And when people are talking about it It's actually getting to bring up Polish self Yeah So, and to the people out there Holidays in Dichunga Take care, drink responsibly Yeah Cause you drive, come to Kunkuna Amen to that Mondays Yeah, because everyone is actually talking about it I'll also take it out Kinkaka, you did a good job You told us about what is eating us up Not that you told us anything new But you told us what we needed to hear at the right time Sasa wachi happu, wachanana kiki Wow Make it clear, my boy I go by the name Dennis Bofu My name is across all social media platforms Those who are watching my family back at home in the Koratina No offender sauna How do you mention names in Wengi? Are you offending me? Why?  Yeah, I'm done, but this guy So, what were you saying? Ulazama and Nini This is the number two show Okay This is the number two show, 30 minutes One minute Dennis, are you a cartoon? Okay, we're not going to do this We're not going to have this kind of an interview right now We don't even have time for that I didn't know And now, guys Guys, thank you so much for staying with us Now, here's a quick reminder Yes, so You know, right here, I try to perform each and every morning There's a show called Why in the Morning It's amazing, yeah For hours of nothing, but entertainment So, you know what they're giving away? Cake These festive season You want to get your hands on that cake? Make sure you are tuned in from 7 a.m. All the way to 10 10 a.m., actually 7 a.m. to 10 a.m. Each and every morning Now, thank you so much for watching You guys are amazing You're the real MVPs Abishara Tumash You're Naivasha You're always tuned in And we are happy you are Iman Jams He is always tuned in And abishara to everybody else Who is tuned in as well You may not have tweeted, texted But the fact that you are home watching us We appreciate And the whole entire technical crew Who made the show possible We don't take it for granted Thank you so much Now, the show runs right here Every single Thursday But there's another show coming your way On Saturday Rock Tour Right? Rock Tour On Saturday I'll see you then from 5 p.m. Although it's 7.30 p.m.


What's up everybody? JC here for jaspyscasebrakes.com last break of the night jaspys buyback series one hockey repack 11 packed casebreak number Seven just sold out random teams again We're giving away two hitless spots in this break just for grabbing the spot So again, if you go hit this unfortunate with the team you're randomized here You'll have an opportunity to beat into a separate itemizer at the end of the break Where the top two cousin renamed to get a spot each in number eight and again ducks down to the Winnipeg Jets Let's roll the dice And two and a five seven times for the list of customer names the teams and for the case numbers remaining So seven times five two two and a five one two three four five six and seven the final time well Dom down away. Let's go seven times here teams now one combo team guys, which was Starstrasher's and Canadians one two three four five six and seven seven times Senators done to the New Jersey Devils All right, Dom. You have the senators robber with the nuts and leaves willing with the Panthers jab with the yolks Mike of the flames I had it with the Islanders Jason with my Kings last one But then with the Dugs Dom you have the black Hawks Jason with the Hurricanes Gary you have the Red Wings Joshua with the Blues Joe that lunch niggas with the lighting map of the Jets Way with the Bruins and Sharks Joe with the Oilers Robbie of the Capitals dealing with the blue jackets Marco with these stars thrashes Canadians combo Tony Penguins Karen with the Flyers Timothy with the Rangers Michael with the Wild Kevin with the Predators willing with the Sabres and Wade with the Devils All right, if anybody wants to make any trades and again, this was seven times for the case numbers Excuse me Two seven times Case three this late-night break sponsored by build your own droid at galaxies at just our worst line All right guys trim one close. Yeah, I must have put some thrashes in here So there must be some potential your car gotty lightning maybe some Some cobalt Chuck Who knows that the Raptors 0607 team was pretty solid Although they didn't make it far in the first round, but They're pretty good. We decided to separate them just because we don't want people to say what's going to pick All right, where is my knife here's jerseys ovechkin backstrom who's nuts off and TJ Oshie ten out of ten For the Washington Capitals and that is going to Robert Curtis Joseph one out of six Letter or lace one of the Toronto Maple Leafs They go a little cell sheet from Pearl hockey. There you go, Toronto Also going to Robert. There you go We got a clean killer emblem of endorsements That's a 11 out of 15 nice three-color patches Yachts going to Jack man Jack you're like five for five and a Nico he shirt seven out of 12 autograph for the Devils from 1819 the cup hockey Devils it's going to wait That's what and we got Henry Glunk was King Henry Rangers signature rendition from 1819 the cup hockey Rangers. It's going to Timothy Good case so far. We got a triple rally trios Eric Stahl Devon Dubnik and Ryan Souter six out of ten for the Minnesota wild Minnesota wild Michael all the ball that way rise, you know the Kings Only had one road loss in all of 2012 Got up to a trio lead in every single series. I mean I can't begin to talk about 2014 Only team to come back come back with a reverse sweep Win three game sevens in a row. I don't know man. It's more historic right there And we got a rogui Vashom Little tribute six out of ten from the cup hockey LA Kings 1314 cup hockey nice little Stogie with rogui. I had that event at the Kings game for a long time Kings going to Jason last Bob Mojo harder patch autograph in The last break in a flyer's uniform But I don't know how much more flyers you may have in here Paul Coffey and Shryman's autograph 45 out of 50 for the Oilers from 2012 13 cup hockey Oilers Go to Joey after more packs and wow there you go We hit it a one out of nine Alexander Treyor Diamond relic rookies from black diamond the conference exclusive There you go. There you go Columbus bluejack. It's going to Dylan. There you go. Very nice Well, you kind of back it up with the Kings at least when you finally decided to Pretend he was injured to get traded from the Columbus bluejack is did pretty well Five out of five Wow, did we just pull this is it not Treyor? What's the correct way? Oh, wow We did we just pulled a different one Ten out of ten this time. It's five out of five premium materials OV Kuznetza backstrim and Oshie It's another one there for the capitals And the last one and we got a Devon Dubnik for the wild 21 out of 25 nice three-colored patch in there Tex yeah, Tex yeah, uh, I'm a little tired already will Tex yeah, there you go Devon Dubnik wild Michael E Very nice It's 21 out of 25 There you go guys. That was a break. So let's see who went hit list to get an opportunity to Potentially get a spot or two in the next break. So William Is everybody here? Actually, sorry I There you go guys List and again after Full 12 top two get a spot in the next break one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven and 12 12 times Kevin and Wade Congratulations after 12 times you guys are the top two you guys got a spot in the next one on number eight Which we break in tomorrow. Appreciate you guys. Jasper skates.com


Their one point agenda is to hate muslims. Hello and welcome to this joint production of NewsClick with Leaflet. We have with us today Dr. Ravi Varma, who's been the former advocate general of the state of Karnataka. He's also currently arguing the challenge to the revocation of reservations for Muslims 4% in the state of Karnataka. As we all know this has become a very, very hotly debated political and election issue as Karnataka goes to the polls. But you're making a major point, you're saying if you come back you will bring back the 4% reservation for Muslims, but you will also give reservations for vocaligas and lingas. Lingas and other communities also. In Karnataka, the Congress government has kept 4% muslim reservation in a non-convenient way. I want to say it in a non-convenient way, that our reservation does not help the reservation based on religion. You have to protect every section of the society. How can they fight with the general category? Is it unfair? So you would give back the 4% if you come back to power to the minorities. We have to deserve bound duty to protect their interest. Dr. Ravi Varma will explain to us the relevance of this issue and his approach to the problem since he's currently arguing the case in the Supreme Court. So Dr. Varma, could you please explain to us what is the relevance of this challenge that you have brought to the revocation of reservations of 4% for Muslims in the state of Karnataka in the Supreme Court of India? At the outset, I appreciate the concern shown by leaflet and news click on this all important subject of social justice as a whole and social justice to Muslims. So far as Karnataka is concerned, we have a rich heritage of social justice. And to the viewers, I should tell you, the first census in India was in the year 1872. That is when people came to know that the dominating caste in public services, namely the Brahmins, they formed just over a 3% of the population. So 1872 was the first census. In the then princely state of Mysore, the first concept of reservation was introduced as early as in 1874. First beneficiaries were Muslims and non-Grammian Hindus. So this would be the right occasion for you to explain what is the relevance of reservations and why they are so critical to what we call social justice under the Constitution of India. Yeah, as I told you, the whole concept was to bring down the preponderance of Brahmins in public administration. We have to remember Muslims have never been provided reservation on the ground, they are religious minorities. That is something that we need to elaborate. Never, never, ever provided reservation on the ground, they are a religious minority. In 1874, they were provided reservation to bring down the preponderance of Brahmins in public administration. Chief Justice Miller committee 1919 described them as backward classes. For the first time, the phrase backward classes was used in 1919. As a backward class, they were given reservation. Then Sahu Maharaj by then had given reservation in Kolhapur, 1902. Padras gave reservation in 1921. Every time Muslims were considered as socially and educationally backward. And after the Constitution came into force, Hounur gave them the title they are socially and educationally backward. Second commission, Venkat Swami commission also described them as socially and educationally backward. Justice Chinnapurati commission also considered them as in the entire community was considered as socially and educationally backward. And as such, they have been enjoying reservation for the last over 150 years. So Dr. Verma, despite all of this, we noticed that in the public domain, those who opposed reservation for Muslims have successfully managed to propagate the narrative that these reservations are based only on the basis of religion. You have taken this case to the Supreme Court of India. If you could just explain to us your strategy in the court and what was the response of the court. See this reservation order, taking away reservation of Muslims is done one day before the elections. It is not based on any empirical data. No contemporaneous data was collected or relied upon. And it is based on a so-called interim report of the backward class commission obtained under political pressure because the Karnataka state commission for backward classes is also headed by a political man today. So he succumbed to the political pressure brought upon him and gave an interim report. Nobody had complained against Muslims. Nobody had asked for removing the quota given to Muslims. The backward class commission has not issued any notice. They are not conducted any inquiry. Therefore that issue was not before the backward class commission at all. But just like that, backward class commission gives an interim report. You transfer them to economically weaker sections. On that ground, this order is passed. Yes. But more to the point, in the Supreme Court of India, you are representing the community and their organizations. And if you could just explain to us a little bit about the argument that you will be presenting to the court as to why, in your opinion, this reservation is based on social and educational backwardness and not on religion alone. As I told you, this has never been introduced on the basis of the religion at any point of time. The one and the only ground on which they have been classified as backward classes, entitled for reservation article 15-4 and article 16-4, is on the ground, they are educationally backward, they are socially backward, they are economically poor, by and large they reside in ghettos, slums or otherwise congested areas. They carry on such occupations, which are not even entitled to be called as blue color jobs, much lower than that. And nearly 60% of them are found to be below poverty line. And the highest number of dropouts is from among the Muslims. And the number of people going to higher education after the age of 16 is also considerably low. The representation in services is abysmally low, where in Karnataka they have a population of about 13%, neither in services, nor in professions, nor in educational institutions, their representation exceeds 6%, therefore they are socially and educationally backward and they are inadequately represented in services, therefore eligible for reservation. Dr. Verma, the case is on board in the Supreme Court tomorrow and we know that you will be presenting your case over there. Are you hopeful that you will be able to persuade the court that this reservation is not based on religion alone or on religion in fact? No, one of the reasons why the interim report was given against Muslims by the Karnataka State Commission for Backward Classics is on the ground that there was no material whatsoever to indicate they are socially and educationally backward. This statement by itself is a 100% lie because as I have told you, Haunor Commission has identified them as socially and educationally backward. It was challenged on the ground that they cannot be provided reservation as a religious minority. This argument was repelled way back in the year 1979, a division bench of the Karnataka High Court in Som Shakra Paskes has expressly upheld the reservation provided to Muslims as socially and educationally backward class. That order of the High Court was challenged in the Supreme Court in Vasanth Kumar case and as you are aware Vasanth Kumar upheld the High Court statement. Yes, though they didn't put it in the judgment. All these facts are suppressed in the interim report. I think we will have to wait for the outcome of the Supreme Court judgment but how does this play out in terms of the ongoing elections in Karnataka? We heard statements by the Home Minister to the effect that if their party comes back to power they will scrap reservations for Muslims. See the present government, BJP government in Karnataka did not come to power on a popular mandate. They were not given the mandate to rule the state. However, by a backdoor through what is now known as Operation Kamal. They won over 17 MLS from other parties who resigned from those parties and they were able to follow. As you know this is going on in many states. Whenever they came to power through a backdoor they have taken Karnataka as a laboratory for experimenting hostility towards Muslims and building a narrative to polarize the people. How do you see this playing out in the 2024 election? So if they succeed in this election this is going to be their manifesto for the 2024 election. His job to remove Muslim girls from schools, to remove Qureshi from mutton shops, to bring down the influence of imams particularly in the prayer that is being held in the morning, early morning and reservation. This is a very, very serious issue, a very good thing to do because RSS is not comfortable if it is shown by Brahmin or others, they are very happy if it is shown by Muslim or others. I should also point out the repeated statement made by Mr. Amit Shah that Muslims are removed because they are a religious minority is by itself cherry picking the Muslims for a hostile discrimination. Why? Because the entire Christian community which has never been declared as a backward community by any commission finds a place in the government order enjoying reservation of 7 percent now. The entire Buddhist community, religious minority, they are in the reservation order, Jains are in the reservation order. So Christian converts to, I mean, Schedule Caste converts to Christianity, they find a special mention in the reservation order.  Dr. Verma on a connected issue I want to ask you, I find it very ironic that the High Court in Patna has stayed the effort of the government of Bihar to collect data to determine social and economic backwardness, educational backwardness. And the reason for this is, as you know, in the Nagra judgment, we were repeatedly told that you cannot make reservations without data. So on the one hand, the Supreme Court tells us that you cannot make reservations without data. On the other hand, when there is an effort to collect data, we have a stay from the High Court. How do you see this? So far as the caste data collection is concerned, all the political parties are guilty of suppressing this information from the nation. It is the Britishers alone who collected accurate data about the population of each caste and their socio-educational and economic position, as it reflected then. So from 1872 to 1931, comprehensive data was collected and data collection improved by lips and bounds on the basis of the experience they had in the past. 1941 census was incomplete because of the Second World War. So after that, the census stopped collecting caste details. However, they have been collecting caste details in respect of all the castes, nearly 800 castes, found in the Scheduled Caste List and likewise Scheduled Tribes List in the country. Now, so far as the Patna High Court is concerned, Patna High Court has stayed the ongoing process. What is important to take note of is, this stay was given on 3rd May. The survey was conducted way back in the month of February 2023. So practically the survey is over, it is only finishing touches and as per the statement made by the advocate general to the court, 80% of the work is over and the data is already in the public domain. That is what he has said, be that as it may, now it has been stayed. Now what is the ground on which it is stayed? That is very important. Now as you are aware, in Ramurthi's case, the Honorable Supreme Court has said, you cannot interfere in the matter of collection of data or direct a census operation to be conducted as the Madras High Court had done. They said, this is a matter of policy and courts cannot enter this area of policy making and therefore the High Court should not have issued the mandamus. That is what the High Court has said. So if it is a matter of policy, how can the Patna High Court interfere with it? I do not have an answer to that question. My goodness, they have gone into the nitty gritties. Are you not violating the right to privacy? I ask this question. Are you not violating the right to privacy when you ask a person? Are you male or female? Are you not violating the right to privacy when scheduled castes are asked to which cast he belongs? Scheduled tribes are asked to which tribe he belongs? How pleased is to these facts if Patna High Court has stayed? It's a matter of policy. Yes. So what I would like to understand from you is what is the apprehension? What is the fear that like a ruling party would have if the data relating to caste became public? I now know a connected question. We know that no all India census has been conducted. So if you could let us have your views on that. I'm extremely happy you raised this all important question. Before that, I'll just complete one narrative so far as the Patna High Court judgment is concerned. Now by the 105th Amendment, the Constitution has given the express power to all the state governments and union territories to have their own lists of backward classes. And the Supreme Court has repeatedly directed right from Indrasani's case, you collect the data. And Indrasani case, they say you conduct a survey of the entire populace, collect the data, and then decide on the backwardness. So that is a condition precedent for classifying anybody as backward. So therefore, when Article 342, Capital A, class 3, expressly authorizes the state governments to have their own lists. That means they are authorized to collect these data. But let's hope at least we have a general census conducted before that. It's very obvious that we have a very long journey to travel. That was Dr. Ravi Verma, former advocate general of the state of Karnataka, telling us his views on the question of reservation for Muslims as also on the order of the High Court of Patna on the caste census, which has been stayed. We won't be able to comment anymore on this because both matters are pending in court. And we look forward to seeing what is the outcome of these two cases. Thank you.


Hello guys, welcome to season three episode three of the recovery room We're here with the regular faces. Uh, if you want to just introduce yourself kim you go first Good morning. My name is kim billy quinlan. I am a licensed marriage and thermo therapist in california and usa uh dream Hello, everybody. I'm drulence a lot of creator and host of the anxious truth podcast and uh, the one officially with The rona today not really, but I just come along today bear with me. It's okay last night But not least josh you were with this fantastic message on his t-shirt It's my message. Honestly. It's great I'm josh refletcher anxiety josh psychotherapist here in the uk specializing I'm working with anxiety disorders and I write great books that you should buy so I can add stuff to my office Fantastic. So guys, uh, this week we're talking about self Uh, sabotaging and fantastic topic lots of questions to get through Before we do it. I just want to add a new segment which is anxiety in the news So i'm just going to pick I think we mentioned it last time Just pick a few topics. Obviously you guys haven't done your research on it. So it's just like a Your opening statement or just what you think of the news article the message that it brings and just your first take on it and The first thing I want to say though is drew Untangle your anxiety audio version. I believe it's a rap. Yeah It is a rap. I'm just waiting for the okay for you from you guys to hit the send button And it's good. It's good. It's really good That is so exciting kim if you want to tell everyone your fantastic news regarding your podcast as well That is something you should be shouting from the rooftops Yeah, I'm so excited. So your anxiety toolkit podcast was nominated as the best science-based podcast for anxiety For 2022 which is like of all the categories. That's the one I want to be in which makes me very very happy So thank you. Yeah, it's really exciting And joshua you've been working on some fantastic projects with some Well some brands that we might have heard of if you want to tell if you want to tell people what you've been doing Yeah, I've been working with uh, microsoft recently looking doing a project on productivity anxiety Um, I think it's nice. I think it's good that brands are doing this Not just saying mental health awareness week actually doing a whole campaign on the psycho education of productivity anxiety, which I agree. It's actually nice. It's actually nice to see that that's happening See it like just just to point off that seeing a link between consumerism and them Wanting to put psycho education behind their message as a brand. Yeah, I'm really all for that josh. It's lovely to see um, the first news article guys that that are pulled up. So I just want whoever to go first And just you're just your honest take and what what you think of it So I won't read the article. I'll just say the the news headlines and see what you think So massive birth cohort study finds young adults with social anxiety Are less likely to meet a range of educational outcomes He wants to go first without Did you say educational outcomes?  I think that social anxiety does impact our ability to Be very present right because of your thinking about what other people may think of you We sort of understand that social anxiety is a shame disorder as much as it is an anxiety disorder So yeah, if you're in a place of anxiety, it's very hard to concentrate. It's very hard to ask to be get your needs met Um, it's very hard to advocate for yourself, particularly if you're struggling so that doesn't surprise me at all Um, anyone else want to add to that?  What why why is your threat response going bananas when someone's looking at you? Particularly someone perhaps an authority someone who's loud Doing all these things and yeah, it can affect your confidence because It will help it will It'll make you doubt going for job interviews.  I'm also it will Often draw you to placate people and not placate people in their opinions as opposed to listening to your own Drake have you anything to add to that? I think those are good responses. I I would I have the question that pops in my mind would be I wonder how that gets impacted when the mode of learning switches to asynchronous online learning Where you're not face-to-face with that authority figure you don't have to interact Directly with the professor or the teacher or whoever the instructor or your classmates I have to wonder is that is that helpful for the person with social anxiety In the short term in terms of helping them cope with the class better But then again Is it harmful in the long run because it doesn't really help to move past the problem? So I'm not surprised at that result either and that's a great question. Great question And it's a double-edged sword isn't it why you say? The now so we'll do three headlines and we'll go into the self-sabotaging. So the next one is a large new study Concludes so it's a study from sweden over 400,000 people have been followed from birth to the age of 25 And the study concluded that a physical activity lifestyle has a long-term Association with the later development of anxiety disorders in both men and women So the people who had a more physical lifestyle was less likely to develop anxiety disorders I'm I'll take that one. I'm not surprised by that at all. That's really good news because I think so much of this Is when we get a we lose confidence in our own bodies when we wind up in these tough spots, right? So everything your body throws at you interpret as something dangerous and you start to see yourself as frail and Very easily broken it. I'm right on the edge of just literally just breaking down. I'm going to die My heart's going to give out So I think if you are in a situation where you are continually showing yourself Through this physical activity that you hopefully enjoy It's an enjoyable part of your lifestyle that your body is capable I would think that that is going to give you some natural resiliency against falling into that trap of No longer trusting your body or thinking that your body is frail and broken. So that makes sense to me Do you think people um with anxiety might read that and become obsessed with physical activity? Have you heard of that? Um, if you or josh all kim, have you heard people like thinking that physical activity is the answer to to anxiety disorders You get people literally running away from their anxiety literally I must get up and run. I must go to the gym. I must do these things So I don't feel anxious and people can take it the opposite way A lot of my clients don't know how to stop You know, I do droos talk, you know droos new books about taking the seven percent things seven percent slower I truly believe learning how to stop is a skill I that information It surprises me a bit. Um, I don't think I think it affects everyone who's super active and who isn't Um, I think after you've been diagnosed and you've got your confidence back if you have someone who Finds interreceptive exposure quite challenging. Then yeah, I think exercise in the long term is going to help you Not relapse into panic disorder But sometimes when you mix anxiety disorders with like other stuff that's going on You get people literally running away. I'm one of my mates He knows who he is. He won't mind me kind of mentioning this, but he just he's just completed that famous uh ultra marathon in the Sahara I know because he says that, you know, it's a good way for me to deal with my grief. I'm like, dude That ain't dealing with your grief You're like you're like running 125 miles and 50 degrees Celsius is insanity You know And yet but conventionally there's this narrative of Well, keep up the exercise you're doing right? Well, actually you can actually have a very unhealthy relationship with exercise too Um, whether it's anaerobic aerobic and even strength like people absolutely hammer in the gym They've got legs growing out of the shoulders, you know Because it's you know Kim what's your take on that? Well, I I'm not surprised I think what we're missing here is to what degree of exercise they're in the study, right? So if we're talking about 20 to 30 minutes of aerobic exercise I think that is an inter receptive exposure. It helps people to be able to tolerate the feeling of anxiety um So that doesn't surprise me at all But I think that there is a degree where as with everything it's nuanced that If you're going way beyond that and you're using it as a way to tamper your anxiety or in my case your Man anxiety management with exercise becomes a whole nother eating disorder issue Then then you've got another set of problems. So I think I think Uh, the big question I have is how much exercise are they reporting? Are they including the people who are over exercising? That would be an important question to ask to look into the research Fantastic great answers last but not least and then we'll get on to the questions from the community um Yeah, so coven anxiety accelerated memory decline In older people. So there was a study of 6,300 people who took an online study It's been published in a scientific journal He's saying that the experience of decline in the short-term memory Equivalent to six years of natural aging according to the study Because of coven anxiety or getting coven no because of coven anxiety I'm sorry. What was your name again? See what I did there Yes Is anyone going to take on that that was that was from the times as well. So, um, wait, so Having anxiety over coven 19 has resulted in some measurable Short-term memory loss for the older generation older generation Well, it would make sense because a lot of days a groundhog day as well like memory thrives off when things are different, you know, but like Surely days must kind of blend into one particularly if you're older and vulnerable I know of some people in my life of the older generation, you know, some people we've got like my People in care homes and stuff.  We can't see the loved ones. They can't do all these things It wouldn't surprise me at all that lack of stimulus particularly as well as as you know in psychology, it's easier to Like memories are stored when there's like an emotion attached to them And if every day is just a mindless dissociated groundhog day It wouldn't surprise me that there's a short-term memory loss and it's specifically short-term as well So it's like what what is there to remember? Apart from these amazing lives that we do But I think the question here is why is it linked to is it they've linked it to covid anxiety not That's the that's the The thing that they're reporting on so yeah, that's a great question So it could be are they are they linking it to people who are getting anxious within covid or is it literally specifically for The topic of covid again anxious about Yeah, the cool thing is isn't it in this segment is that we also can have people start to question studies Not that we're just invalidating them but to question going okay How are we differentiating that it's definitely the covid anxiety that's causing it without looking at the fact that there are other Lifestyle things happening at the same time. So we can start to not that we're questioning science at any case, but we can We're supposed to that's yeah That's the name of the game Yeah, so I think that that's where it's interesting right here is we I love this segment because I think it helps us to go Okay, that's really interesting. Could it be also that it's related to as Josh said groundhogs day and so forth It's hard to quantify isn't it? Yeah How would you separate that so skeptically like The problem the problem is when you're dealing with anxiety you often search Anxiety related things and people in the anxiety community will be coming across news articles such as this Right and I think generally from my patients when you have anxiety that memory loss is a thing for everybody Yeah, it was for me and a big deal, right? You're just you can remember like big events, but you're like, where did I put my Wallet like those kind of things are really difficult when you're managing a lot of anxiety I remember working. I was working on the phones in a company that I used to work for And I rang this Client I went through the whole spiel of everything I had to say and I was anxious During during that period I put the phone down and I rang him back again And they said to me you do realize you've spoke to me and honest to god I really had no recollection that that ever spoke to him and it that then freaked me out And caused I think it caused a panic attack at the time because I was like Geez, what's what's happening? So when people talk about these scurry anxiety symptoms that that's definitely one example Of me going through one. Yeah, I forgot that we wrote a book D Did you know the title? What was the title? Oh, yeah Because I forgot that as well links in the bio Right. So let's get on to the topic guys. I really enjoyed that by the way Just just just literally looking at the news Seeing what the talk about anxiety. So, um Drew, I think you came up with the topic idea again this week the topic master Why did you want to speak about self-sabotaging and how did it? How did you experience it on your anxiety recovery? Um, well, I mean it's a thing and you know what I could give big shout out to my facebook group because It is always fertile ground for for topics with such a large number of people discussing these things And somebody I can't remember who it was now, but you know who you are if you're watching Thank you for bringing it up and the question has come up several times like I'm worried not so everybody worries that they're not going to get better. That's a very common fear What if I never get better? But this is a very specific version of that I'm afraid that I'm going to sabotage my recovery Like I'm going to engage in self-sabotage and I've seen that come up a couple of times and it was fascinating to me I actually had to ask well, what does that mean to you? So it's not a thing that I personally had ever really considered You know All right, he's getting already and wound up He's like pulling up his sleeve He's got the bicep sign Um, but let me tell you I found it fascinating So I that's how it came up and did I have to deal with that? I honestly in in all honesty I've always you know up front about my experience. I never confronted that in my experience So I was a foreign concept to me that you would self-sabotage Josh over to you There exists many people in this world who genuinely feel discomfort But achievement and doing good things for themselves Um, it's sad. It's one of the saddest parts when you see lovely wonderful people who When something good happens to them, there's almost there's a cognitive dissonance between Acknowledging that it's happening to them. It's almost like, um Yeah, it's just quite sad when it happens. So what you need to do is you need to be like What I do as an integrative therapist is that I look at the reasons as to why You Why you can't accept that so if you do really well with your exposure and you do a successful exposure I know some people just refuse to acknowledge that because something good happened to them And what I like to do is unpick why What is it and actually you you'll find a multitude of reasons being not like a standard reason will be actually receiving praise was never normalized to them receiving encouragement was never normalized to them and that feeling is a is as alien As the exposure itself sometimes and that's really important and you've got to remember that like if people are getting stuck exposures, it's like actually Oh Not only am I doing this new feeling and expose myself, but also I have a feeling of what pride self satisfaction happiness. I'm exposing myself to that too. It's completely new to me Hmm So so from let me Take it from a different angle.  It's job is to go bad things might happen to watch out for that How what's you know? What if what if what if And I also think it's a normal part of the brain's response to go. What if you've missed something? What if you're doing something wrong? um, and so I often tell patients if they're having the fear of self sabotage is to treat it like any fear Which is just content that the brain comes up with Right But but in addition and I know I weighed in on this in our previous chat I do have a patient to Get better And are so overwhelmed with how they have to catch up in life because anxiety has taken so much from them that They do say it's almost easier to be in the disorder So, um, there are a couple of thoughts that we can extend on if we like Guys I can see it To be honest with you dean, I think it's your are you using that blue microphone using the blue yeti No, the smaller condenser one. Okay Because when you when you type it's oh, boom, boom. It's loud and clear if there's a the condenser is picking up everything I think last time dean you used a different mic. Didn't you? Sorry guys. We'll work it out one second Yeah, yeah, there's tremendous. I can hear the feedback loop Can you hear me now? Yeah Yeah, we can hear you Better That's better. Oh, it's only kim Oh, I could hear I could hear everyone echoing. Oh, okay Maybe is it possible that it's reached or you It could be it's possible because I know josh and I don't hear an echo. So sorry guys I can't hear josh. Oh I I just changed some of my settings. Did that help it? Oh, sorry? Dean's echoing and kim's echoing. D drew is not echoing. Yeah, I don't hear echo. Sorry guys Um, it could be reached going before now. It started in the middle, right? Sorry. Yeah, kim kim kim zack away Yes, too It's literally re streaming Yes, literally they've taken themselves very seriously In the meantime, I will convey my feelings about Unqualified coaches through the modicum expressive dance Oh, please no Expressive dance Does everyone have any settings the echo cancellation on Yeah Yeah, that's that's a new setting. So Sorry guys, we're working this out Anyway Just yeah Guys No, let's let it roll keep it going. Yeah. All right, so I got a great question and that was his exposure valuable if you don't feel anxiety within the expo Goodness You are for me. Yeah, this has got to be a restream thing it has to be I'm the only one Dean is great Because you're because it's through your stream, maybe that's why it's not echoing Yeah, that's why I'm thinking it's a restream thing if I'm the only one not echoing. It's my stream. So yeah, something's up Did you get the question? I don't I like repeated it five times Yes, I got it Is it that one is exposure? Yeah, I can talk for all. Yeah, great. I mean the guy would lose in his voice Is exposure useful if you don't feel anxiety? Yes, Josh, you're just super low for me now, by the way, you're quiet You're super quiet now I'll answer the question Go for it. Exposure is not just about anxiety So you if you're if your fear is anxiety, then you should have anxiety in exposure Some people don't have anxiety. They have disgust obsessions. So then the exposure should focus on disgust And some people have uncertainty and therefore Focus should be uncertain uncertainty. So you don't have to have anxiety for the exposure to work Great great answer. It would depend on the fear Yeah, we might we might generalize that question to discomfort. It would depend on the aversion Yeah And the thing is if you tool the end of your anxiety recovery, then you might be dealing with less anxiety is is anyway Yeah That's a common mistake because I think a lot of people get caught in I'm trying to find a way to do my exposures without the discomfort or with you know, like that if if I do it and I don't haveings that's a good one, but That's not really a good one like In the end Next question guys. How do we tell the difference between self-sabotaging and actually need an arrest? Anyone Well, I think maybe we want to before we move forward, we may want to define what self-sabotage is, right? So self-sabotage from my perspective is Where you're getting in your own way based on what's best for your long-term recovery, right? And and that's even a broad term because sometimes we can just do the best we can Would you agree that as a definition of self-sabotage? Yeah, and I think it has to be it's either intentional or Maybe it's it's a little bit not intentional, but yet not desired. I know I'm doing this But I don't want to be or I am intentionally doing this. I'm going to throw a grenade into my recovery So I think that's part of it, too Yeah, so this this person isn't to literally say and Then taking a rest is that sabotage and Anxiety recovery should they still be continuing to do exposures? Well, I don't believe in I don't think so mental mental illnesses don't really have time to rest meaning like I've often if a client says to me I'm going to take off a month. That's fine. I'm not against them taking off a month But as long as you know that you won't Take a lot of steps in recovery for that month So I think that it's okay to take a rest but to also be really aware of the outcomes Is that self sabotage?  Like place is bad and I'm bad for doing it or just Sometimes we can't perform that off. I am Interestingly the person in my group who had asked about self sabotage when I asked them about it It wasn't self sabotage at all or I would not have to find it He was just concerned like what if I start to latch on to the the anxious thoughts again And I start to those old habits And I'm like, well, that's that's normal everybody struggles with those things That's not self sabotage unless you're intentionally doing it Or you have a habit of doing that and you can't stop yourself and you don't want to be doing that So it's it's a really it's a great area. It's a weird area, you know Yeah, I'm sorry a great question just on the Face well there Does the exposure to become a compulsion if they use as a way to get less anxiety leading up to a big event? Josh So again Dean leading what was leading up to a big event? I'll put it up on the screen. Yeah Come on Wow, the technology gods are just against us today And do exposures become a compulsion if they used as a way to get less anxiety Leading up to a big event. There you go Uh, no I don't think so. I mean, I don't think exposures I mean, it's paradoxical that sentence because if you're exposing yourself to a feeling that you don't want Then that can't be a compulsion really A compulsion is when you do something to minimize the discomfort that you want to feel but if you're doing true exposure Then yeah, I think what I take from that is that What I hear a lot is people miss can misconstrue what exposure means. They just think that if I go stand somewhere and white knuckle for a bit That's exposure um when actually No, I I'd probably say No, the more exposures the better in anticipation to to an event. That's what I would do Definitely, and I don't I don't think it becomes a compulsion unless Your interpretation of exposure is not correct Or the goal what's the target that that person is aiming at I must get less anxiety before the wedding As opposed to I must get better at actually experiencing and moving through this anxiety So when I go to this wedding, I will do better that way So I think that could be a bit of a thing. I must do more exposures so that I have less anxiety That could be a bit. I've seen that turn into a compulsive behavior with people Remember that compulsions are usually a repetitive behavior. We do with urgency So if you're doing it, of course with the goal of getting better That is this recovery treatment But if you're doing it with urgency of like this must go away There is probably a very good chance that you're doing it to Rid yourself like to try and remove anxiety from your life.  This is what it would sound like We were helping you recover And we can say we're wilfully tolerating this uncomfortable echo surrender to the echo Yes A new definition of an echo chamber Drew, can you get that you see what come on up? I think they've asked it a couple of times Yeah Sure, we'll throw it out. Okay. Well, actually do we want to take the one self-sabotage feel like a pattern like So it can happen. Oh that was the question. It was more of a comment Okay, so this question. I've been going through very bad digestive issues to the the parent. I can't get out Say it say the word Oh, yeah, no, I'm fine with that.  We'll just say it for the rest of the time I was going to hear you say pooping The echo will repeat it It's a super common topic you guys know that like a lot of people get fixated on the whole pooping thing We know this We should do a poop session maybe I've done some weird things in my time, but no, I love you guys, but I don't you're gonna have to play that before I agree to it Like defecating That's better Everybody thinks him is so sweet, but now you see how you see So once for um, it's wanting to be alone and go through an anxiety disorder Self-sabotaging or should I be getting other people involved? Wait, did we answer that question now about about the digestive issues? Like I don't think we did let let me just assure you This is a super common thing Like we actually have words for it. We have phrases that everybody understands. I had butterflies in my stomach I thought I was gonna hurl. I had to run to the bathroom. Nobody questions that like yes, that's that's an issue You know, it's it's not an uncommon issue. It's not a pleasant issue But I think like anything else when you treat that as a special kind of thing You know, we have bathrooms and we have ways to do that and we have to learn to work our way through those unpleasant things Um, so it's not it's not an unusual thing a whole I'm having digestive issues very common 100% um, I said to you guys um with the flight anxiety So before again on a plane I'd just literally be in the bathroom like until they were calling my name I don't know. Do I mean, how much do I can is in this? where they say Your ancestors would get rid of all the waste because they didn't need it To run away from the the things that were In the danger. Is there any science behind that or is that just Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we have all of these um physiological processes that help us because of our need to run away from danger or freeze from danger um, so some people say they need to urinate some say they need to defecate and that does provide you The ability to run longer distances because you've got half a pound or less inside you or Or more depending on what your bowel movements look like um Absolutely same for vomiting I'm being serious why we can't have nice things So same goes for vomiting. I have some client who will vomit and in exposures quite regularly and that's just their body's way of Eliminating weight and and that's part of the normal body Getting rid of it. Sorry I am a lady. I am a lady Wow Wow 14. All right Oh goodness All right, let's let's hit me get choking on his drink. I think so too. I think he had I think he had Coked down the wrong well You okay brother? We knew this was going to be so entertaining today I don't know. I think the person not actually is winning Yeah, evidently I'm the only one that's supposed to be talking today and I cannot trust you guys to talk anyway clearly The rails Yeah, I'll pick it up. That's fine So what was the question the last question that you brought up Dean? Let's let's head up back to that Before you inhaled half a can of coca-cola Do you remember what the last question is? I'll grab a question. That's fine I will grab a question. So one of the things that is here's a common one We should talk about the one of the things I want to talk about too is the self sabotage Like I'm afraid to be better We're done. We're off the rails. I'm muting everybody. That's it. It's all over The beautiful irony the romanticism of having an episode that says self sabotage and right and and here we are just Firing repeatedly into our own collective fun Sorry guys, hopefully it's a painting Let's try let's try this one. Can you please tell me how to stop thinking? Is that self sabotage? Thinking thinking that she's never gonna get better. Is that is that self sabotage? No, that's self doubt So self sabotage is different self sabotage is when you It's an impulse Often my mum does this a lot where she'll be doing really well and then just suddenly That's that feelings unusual and there's an impulse to kind of almost out of intrigue to see What would happen if I do that how strong are the foundations here of this How strong are the foundations here of this positive feeling that self sabotage? It's when people go. How strong is it? How can it resist this? and a lot of time no and Often self sabotage does have some kind of deep roots. Honestly. I know that I always hang on about roots to stuff particularly with anxiety disorders and how they're a lot of crap but in general with self sabotage And and and it's usually to do with Harvard anger and stuff I know mine was based to self sabotage all the time because I anger and grief and Survivor guilt that I just never spoke about You know outside the realms of an anxiety disorder So, yeah, I would honestly look at self sabotage separately. I'd extrapolate it from your recovery and look at it separately That's my opinion and my opinion is gossip So many people when they're going through an anxiety disorder Don't think that they're going to come out the other end I know that There was no light at the end of the tunnel. There was nobody telling me That they've been through an anxiety disorder, which I thought that was me. So that is super common that, yeah I think I think it's important to identify the source of your thinking without being analytical of depression Is very commonly presented as negative thoughts. So we would call Someone with depression as having self sabotage Um self down as jeshua said is another presentation That we wouldn't call self sabotage That being said I do think there are some cases where we Are we do say really self critical things? um Because it's some you know, it's you know the saying it's better the devil, you know, sometimes it's easier to say Um, you won't get better. I've had clients where and I really question them. Like, why would you say that? They'll say it's just so scary the idea of getting better. It's I have so much grief about it Um, and so so it can be complex. I think it's important that people Speak with the therapist if they have access to one to help them Number one be assessed correctly to make sure they don't have depression, which could be what's going on Yeah, look at this. Nikki made a really good comment along those lines kim Like I myself do feel a bit scared of recovery not knowing how my life will be without this long-term anxiety So I think that sometimes self sabotage like well I'm a little bit afraid to be better because now I have to show up Now I have to engage and I've had been in this bubble for a long time that I hate But at least it's safe and it's comfortable and and people will sort of accommodate me a bit And and I don't have to do stuff yet. You don't want to be in that bubble. So I get that Did any of you guys deal with that the the fear of wanting to recover? Because I'm just going off a personal experience that was I really couldn't Relate to that because the one thing I wanted to do was it was get back to this non anxious me And and yeah, well, why does that occur from from a clinical point of view or any of your experiences? There's there's a spectrum of reasons as to why I mean when we discuss anxiety disorders, there's usually a formula that we all kind of Meet with you know Give over with your compulsions. No safety behaviors expose yourself to the stimuli things like that But I do believe that there are things that are external outside the realms of an anxiety disorder that works So for example, I'll be very honest to you and share an evocative story that would be hilarious with an echo um, but like it's I when I was 90% recovered from an anxiety disorder Um, there was a part of me that didn't feel like I deserved to because I lost my brother at the time And I didn't and I did self sabotage and I did do these things I did sit inside of wallowing depression anxiety Because deep down when I worked with the therapist because he was like, why am I here?  It's not just this is the anxiety disorder. There's shit going on around if you're in an abusive marriage You might not think that you deserve To get better you're not you don't deserve your autonomy your independence if someone's constantly Dripping to you that you don't deserve that it's The anxiety disorder itself The mechanism is the same and we all sing off the same M. Sheen But there are things that exist outside The I do recommend counselling for don't take your anxiety disorder to counselling because a lot of people don't get it You can do that. You can use psycho education But I do love counselling when there's just shit going on particularly when there's stuff that's really really heavy Um, because that can be a hindrance to your recovery from anxiety disorder So would you say it's more common with people who are dealing with anxiety and depression to not want to recover? Well, I don't I actually sometimes just lose the labels there So I I didn't have I didn't when I was 90% recovered from anxiety disorder. I didn't have anxiety or depression I wouldn't have meet met the the nice criteria. This is why I always skeptical with things like that because Clinically, I wouldn't have met any of that But I had some weird shit just going on personally You couldn't pigeonhole that The I don't feel worthy of of recovery is more common than we think and it's heartbreaking So I'm with you josh like yeah, that's that's a tough place for someone to be No And so I'll I'll add as I think that deserving this is a huge reason people self sabotage for me It wasn't a huge part of my recovery, but it was a big part of Sort of me really thriving as someone who had anxiety was I would self sabotage because if I really finished it And really hit all of the final pieces Then I wouldn't like I was using it as a as a reason to rely on my partner Right, like if I did it all on my own then I have to do it on my own and that was really scary for me So I would kind of self sabotage a little bit to keep my dependence On on him until I was like wait this is keeping me so stuck in so many areas And that's where that final I even talked about this recently. I've still recently just catching this like I'm here in America by myself. No family just my husband And I didn't realize I was self sabotaging in some areas because I was like Oh, I need to make sure this person is here and and that was a big Like recovery revelation to me Hmm really interesting Someone's pot. Um, I suppose anxiety means you give yourself attention Attention, sorry. It will be negative Um, how can we change our self-attention to nicely? Dream for that. Yeah, I'll put it up here. Um, that's nicky again So I think the one thing that I would probably point out initially and there's a ton of great Uh, I think responses. I have Kim is going to have a bunch She's the queen of self-compassion and then there's a lot of good stuff in here. I know it's going to come out but I would probably caution you to expectations matter Like in these situations, we do not get to just decide to think different like oh I just now I have to just think nice things about myself That's the whole sort of like pop psychology like the thought turned a negative into a positive like you having bad thoughts Think happy thoughts. We can't if we could do that. We would not be here doing the recovery room right now We wouldn't have to Before you carry on what what do you think about? What they say that well if you continue to do it almost do it as a practice That your brain then starts to believe and agree that this pattern might be maybe maybe you these positive things You're saying about yourself are true I mean, I I could tell you what my experience is in a large crowdsourced environment is that doesn't work long term You know, it's sort of a form of thought suppression or thought changing which is pretty well studied at this point And we know that doesn't work so well. It's a good framing thing. So like yes, I need to be kinder to myself I need to try and find the positives in my life all reasonable statements But we can't take it to the extreme that says well, I should just find a way to be able to think differently I just should just think different because we we just can't we can't seem we don't get to decide what we think We get to decide how we interpret what we think and how we react to what we think But we don't generally get to decide to do that, especially when those thoughts become Really strong and intrusive We can't just decide to think different things It just doesn't seem to work and it tends to cause more distress. I can't stop these thoughts I can't turn them into positive thoughts So, you know, we talk all the time about leading with behavior More than anything else you act different and I know that sounds crazy too But you act different before you think different in my world and that I think the best example that I give not blowing my own trumpet Well No, two people can have the same thought but the behavior towards the thought creates completely different reactions So someone could could think anxiously towards that and then they would get an emotional and physical response to that Whereas josh for example might think of the same thought and he'll have a completely different response So it's not the actual thought as the issue is your behavior towards the thought Yeah, like for example, uh, we could have the thought I want to read untangle your anxiety But then you might have the impulse to buy the audiobook and I might have the impulse to Wow I would say I would say to this is I think is a beautiful intention into wanting nice things into wanting to think nice things But I think that we've missed like like Like drew said we've missed the mark in that you don't just to positivity So instead of going how can I think nice things? That I would actually first start with how can I Be nice when things aren't nice Right, that's a change in perspective that lands better particularly for people who have an anxiety disorder or shame or grief or whatever it might be um, so I think I would first start with tending to your pain before Jumping to positivity. I think that there is way more More effective outcomes in that approach Interest Because what people think they will if I just continually say these positive statements to myself that Eventually come true And then like say there could be the frustration that is not coming true and they could actually take it backwards stuff. Yeah Yeah, yeah, it could be really difficult Guys, um, we're coming up to the hour mark. I don't know if there's any questions You want to the highway that you can see in the charter and then before we wrap it up There was one that I wanted to bring up. I know victoria has asked several times, uh, which is She's saying, you know, how do I stop? The bad experience during exposure. I'll try and find it, but it's up there How do you stop a negative experience during exposure from wanting from stopping you repeating the exposure? Right, so that she's essentially saying well, I do my driving exposures I feel really bad during those exposures and therefore I don't want to do them again And I you know, so we should probably address that that's an expectation I think I think that goes back to josh when you always say When clients come to you and say I haven't been anxious this this week you tend to I well That's no good because that doesn't mean that you practice your response to the anxiety um, so Yeah dealing with the the bad response during the exposure. That's all part of the recovery Yeah, that's go practice being anxious Practices how good at you are being anxious that's that in a nutshell. How good how good can you get Being anxious and we're talking to dean who's always had like a lifelong fear of flying and and when he went to fly he was He went in with that mentality, you know, how good can I About being anxious and he did really well better than he's ever done, you know with help from kim and mockery from me and drew, you know, it got through it His real friend and his two Ed friends Can I with all sincerity and I want all your opinions here because I know sophie and Sophie is doing exposure with driving anxiety I know it's not necessarily self sabotage, but whilst she's watching and I've got you guys here Can you give your best tips for driving anxiety? To sophie because it applies to other anxiety to give your best tips to sophie and um Let's hear what the pros and kim have to say Let me I'll kick start so we drive drive people think that because I'm driving And I get anxious that it must mean that it's fearful that I'm in a dangerous situation People often forget that when you're anxious, what does that mean? You're more aware you're more focused So when you're anxious and driving The likelihood is that you're actually going to be driving better than if you wasn't anxious So if you if you get anxiety while driving my advice would be to continue But always know that if you have to pull over it's not the end of the world You can pull over and then continue on your journey But just because you're getting anxious and driving it doesn't mean that you have to stop driving Yeah, that was my jam driving anxiety thing was 100 my jam and I spent so much time driving around Feeling completely derealized completely Depersonalized like in in full panic and I learned that you know Yeah, I pull over once in a while in the beginning, but then I learned well I could go another few minutes. I can go another few minutes and It what Dean just said is really magical in some instances because what I discovered was when I would be in the habit of like Uh-oh, I got to hurry up and get home I was driving at like formula one levels at that point. You're bob.  It feels so dangerous.  It really is in the end. What what would you say if they said My arms feel like jelly my legs feel like I'm going to lose control and what if I can't pull over? What if I'm on a wrinkled or the freeway and there's nowhere to pull over?  It's your body's natural response To keep in you safe I didn't fall off the cliff. I'm still there Oh, we were so close we were like Everyone was saying they loved it though, so maybe we should have more we still have people here.  Maybe maybe that's why I'm so partial to kermit, but it did I did it three or four times and I thought this is insane I'm literally like I'm reinforcing this.  My legs were fine I was jumping up two and three stairs at a time While convinced that my legs were rubber and not working So I have no sympathy for feels like I have sympathy for you Just not the feels like it's not it's not the And then no, it's not your body's response to tell you to stop driving. No, it's a Justing that right you've interpreted it that way. Yeah. Yeah. So I all I would add here is Anytime I'm doing driving exposures. We do a lot of psycho education around the practice of curiosity Staying curious because naturally when we're anxious we go to black and white thinking This feeling means my body is shutting down me panicking means I'm dangerous and we have all these beliefs and So if you can bring curiosity, I sit in the passenger seat pre covid and they'll be like I'm freaking out and I'll go What else do you notice? And they'll be like I can't feel my legs What else do you notice and that's all I do is I just sit there and and have them work through All of these concrete Inflexible thoughts that they have we're not correcting them We're just working on noticing how the brain when we're panicking goes black and white From your job the muscle you can strengthen is curiosity in those processes. Yeah That's cool. Sophia.  So you understand why the danger comes that Well, when they're feeling that anxiety that they think that it they're not going to be able to cope of that They're going to put themselves or other people in danger. And it's only natural to ask them questions But how often do people get in the car and arrive at work and they can't remember a damn thing that how they got there It's because You don't need all your faculties to drive to a place Honestly, yeah, I drive to work all the time and all I'm listening to is the panic pod podcast available We haven't seen one of these we haven't had one of these episodes in a long time He's in rare form today. The analyst in me wants to know what's happening with josh this week Yeah, I have personal therapy on Tuesday The subject of my father came up, but now I just want to uh, I just want that I'm worthy. I'm worthy. I'm worthy. Love me Guys, I think that's the perfect place Everybody tell them they love them I definitely think we're just still close there. There's been some really good Questions and answers and a little bit of comedy and the echo that's growing on pig. So The echo is growing on me. Can we have it every week? Might be our new thing. Yeah, maybe Guys, are we working on anything this week or is it just headstand and continue in doing what we do best and that's support the anxiety community Yeah, what are we working on? I'm I am working on creating systems for my staff Doing a lot of educating and getting them really set up. That's my big project this week Dream and are you finished on tango? Yeah, we're working on well, I mean, I can't really talk about it too much yet But we're working on that new that new community site that we've been Hatching behind the scenes. Yeah, so that we're going to start talking about very soon. That's been good brilliant and josh Obviously a microsofter we've we're finished with microsoft Pretty much a couple more radio interviews finishing microsoft I'm working with people at the moment stuck in ocd recovery cults Based in the uk Just before we go head. Can we talk about how great the documentary was? What what did you guys think? Anyone? Yeah But yeah, I'm working on that Finishing untangle your intrusive thoughts, which is good reading kimberley's book tomorrow that arrives finally Don't know what they've been doing. I think they've been handwriting, but I'm really looking forward to reading that Because there needs to be more literature on ocd and intrusive thoughts And the audio version of untangle your anxiety will be coming out soon And we promise you that it won't have this echo or maybe it won't Yeah, this this is an example of drus Yeah, I was gonna say There's an echo. I'm doing something seriously wrong It was actually There is no group talk in entangle your anxiety audiobook it'll be fine. I can I can vouch for that. I listened to the whole That's good Since drew finished listening to the whole book he ain't been anxious once I have not been anxious once I'll lose my voice and I'm sick. I don't know if there's a correlation, but maybe Anyway guys Yeah, thank you so much drew. I think it's time to roll the credit roll the clip. We'll see you guys next week Good luck