Welcome to Adventures in Small Business. This is a collaborative effort by the U.S. Small Business Administration Hawaii District Office, the Hawaii Small Business Development Center, the MINK Center for Business and Leadership, as well as the Veteran Business Outreach Center of the Pacific to showcase stories of local entrepreneurs in small businesses. I'm Dennis Wong from the Hawaii Small Business Development Center. And today I'd like to welcome my guest, Dustin Denise from Texas Hawaii. Welcome, Dustin. How's it going, Dennis? Thanks a lot for having me here. Great. And thanks for coming to be a guest. You and I have, we've been to many workshops together and a lot of startups and we're businesses, they have a lot of questions as far as how to start the business, the regulatory compliance is what they need to do, what they want to stay away from not doing. And so I thought that the area of expertise in your business as the owner or co-owner of Nexus Hawaii can provide valuable information to the people that are watching this segment of program. Yeah. Yeah. Right on. Looking forward to it. Thank you, Dustin. Can you tell me a little bit about who Dustin Denise is and how you started your professional career? Okay. Well, I started in insurance, working with the Fortune 200 company here locally. We have our branch out here locally. Our insurance though that we work with was primarily business to business. So I did a lot of employee benefit stuff. With that it got me the kind of the experience of working with companies. So working directly with businesses. We worked with over a couple of thousand companies here in the state of Hawaii. And I got a chance to kind of really know the aches and the pains, see what was working and what wasn't working for certain businesses. When you are working with that many companies, that many different clients. So I had an opportunity really to take some of the best practices, I think, from some of those businesses that were doing well and be able to kind of bring some of those resources to some of other companies in Hawaii. I believe that businesses in Hawaii are really the backbone of our community. It's something that if I can help companies to grow and to thrive, then the employees that work for those companies as well grow and thrive and the community does well. So that's kind of why I started the company with Nexus Hawaii. What inspired you to start your own business? I think I was, I don't know, maybe read into it. My dad actually he owned a produce distribution company in the state of Hawaii. I'm sorry, the island of Hawaii. I'm from the big island originally. So we got a chance to work with a lot of the farmers, really small businesses who are just trying to make ends meet. And I think that that was a really great start. My mom also too owns a small daycare center. So you have that entrepreneurship going through your blood, huh? Yeah, I do. And I've seen a lot of the stresses and the struggle that my own family went through. So anything I can do to kind of provide relief, I think, was something that was great, I think, when looking at starting another business. Why don't you tell us what does Nexus Hawaii do? What kind of services do you offer? So yeah, Nexus, we do everything from your payroll to your HR. We can do entity setups. So we do, you know, whether it's going to be your LLC or S-Corp setup, we can do your, you know, all lines of insurance, workers' comp, TDI, general liability, major medical insurance. Sort of like a one-stop shop. One-stop shop, exactly. Is this cumulative of what you learned to going through all the other businesses in the past and what you've done? Did that form the idea in your mind? Correct, yes. Yeah, so I mean, you know, exactly what I said earlier is, you know, like as I got a chance to see some of the best practices and what other companies were doing right, not only on the, you know, on the HR and insurance side, but on, you know, management and leadership side as well as culture. These were all things that, you know, I love to work with businesses on and, you know, see how that business can be most successful. When are some, when your clients come to see you, especially for the first time or first few times, what is the common questions that they have regarding to seeking assistance in payroll services or HR issues or insurance? Can you give us an idea? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of all over the place because you have, you know, some businesses who are just starting up kind of in the infancy stage of their business, so they have no idea where to start.  One of the last people I met through your, you know, through the workshop that we did, we were actually talking about what areas they wanted to put their shop in, and then talking about, you know, what the requirements would potentially be for different spaces and those types of things. That's one side of the conversation.  You know, they're wearing multiple hats, so they're trying to balance HR, hiring and reprimanding and firing and, you know, sourcing out their insurances and all those other things. And then, you know, they're just really looking for a way to be able to, you know, add more time back on their plate, take some time off of their plate, and really focus in on those areas of their business that they know that they need to focus in on to make it grow and to make it work. So that's a really fun conversation to have as well because we get a chance to dive deeper into it, really understand what type of goals they have and what are some of their previous challenges, and then we can, you know, try to plug some of those gaps and build some bridges. Can you give us some helpful instructions or guidance as far as businesses when they're starting out and they're hiring employees? What must they do regarding to the state and federal reporting or as far as medical insurance, temporary disability and workers' comp? Okay, so I think, you know, so, okay, so on the, to start up first off, like I mentioned, you're going to need your FEIN numbers, you need your federal identification number, you need your Department of Labor number, you'd also need your state withholding number. Those are the required kind of things you need to set up. Then on the insurance side, you would also need your workers' comp, your general, if you're going to be having a location you're probably going to get a general liability policy. You need your TDI as well. Both your workers' comp and your TDI is going to be, the way that they rate that is just going to be a percentage of your payroll. So I think a lot of businesses starting early on, they're kind of afraid, okay, I'm going to have to pay this workers' comp and this TDI insurance, but if you don't have a huge payroll, then it's, you know, it might not necessarily be as big as you're imagining it to be because it is a percentage of payroll that is being charged. That's kind of how the premium works out. One thing you're going to want to look at, too, is your major medical. So if you have full-time employees, you're going to want to, you're going to be responsible for taking care of their major medical insurance. So something like your Kaiser or HMSA or HMA or UHA. Those, for your major medical, there's only a small amount of cost that you can shift onto the employee. So the majority of that, the brunt of that cost is on the employer. So those are things that we want to work through and then talk about with that employer to really make sure that they understand it and then how can we make the best choices possible. Because you also, at the end of the day, you want to take care of your employees because your employees are the heart of that business. Those are key assets to making your business thrive. I think here in Hawaii, especially, you're like family to us, especially in a small business. That's one of the things I love about it. So you want to take care of your employees. On the other side, you know that you have minimal budget or you have a certain budget that you need to work with. So really balancing those things out, I think is a big conversation that we have a lot of times in the beginning. But I think a lot of times when you walk away from that conversation, employers feel a lot more relieved. Because they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't know all of these things. And now I do. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. And now they have a clear path to how to get to where they need to get to. Well, there's so many compliance issues, regulatory or licensing issues and all that. A lot to put together. What about when it comes to HR, human resources issues, when it comes to what they generally, common questions they ask like overtime breaks and meals, holidays, vacation at will.  So 40 or more hours per week would constitute overtime for an employer, for an employee I should say. As far as breaks and vacation and holiday, those things aren't mandatory. So they're not required by the State of Hawaii. But again, looking at the overall health of your business, the culture within your organization, those are discussions that I like to have with that employer because your budget might be limited at a certain point, but to have a conversation and say, hey, this is what our goals are. We want to be able to take care of our employees and provide them all of this vacation and all of these benefits. But if you start from the get-go and you run yourself into the ground and then now you're out of business and an employee doesn't have a job, come six months from now, then you're not doing anybody any favors. But if you can have that conversation with your employee and say, hey, we're in the start-up phase right now. This is what we're looking to get to. We're going to be able to offer you this and this later on down the line. I think that employees, sometimes they feel like you're included. They know what the end goal is and at the same time too, the business owner, they can kind of visualize where... So those are milestones or goals that is kind of like implemented through the process? Correct, yes. I see. What about... I believe this is a common question that people would ask. How do I decide whether I should do it for myself, have my own payroll, as far as HR department or... Should I outsource that? How do I decide and make those decisions? Yeah, so I mean, first off, I think to do it yourself, I think a lot of times, and that was one of the faults I think I started with when I started one of my first companies, it was doing everything myself and thinking that I was saving money. Really, I think your time is one of your biggest assets. And you want to kind of weigh out how much time it's going to take you and not only the time it's going to take you, but the time it's going to take you to learn that thing that you're going to be needing to do and then to be able to learn to do it well and then be able to do it. So there's time stacked on time. And at the same time too, so if you're looking at doing it yourself, that's one thing you want to look at is what is it going to be taking away from my business? So am I going to be taking away 10 hours from my business a week that I'm going to be able to do marketing and a marketing contract would equal this amount of future revenue from my business? Or if you're looking at bringing it in-house, am I going to be able to afford to hire someone for 50,000 or 60,000 pay benefits and have this vacation and all that other kind of stuff? Thanks for that information. You know, we're heading to a break now and there's a lot of things that we can discuss and cover coming up in the next segment. Thank you, Dustin. My name is Amy Ortega Anderson, inviting you to join us every Tuesday here on Pinoy Power Hawaii with Think Tech Hawaii. We come to your home at 12 noon every Tuesday. We invite you to listen, watch for our mission of empowerment. We aim to enrich, enlighten, educate, entertain, and we hope to empower. Again, maraming, salamat po, mabuhay, and aloha. Aloha, I'm Cynthia Sinclair. And I'm Tim Apachella. We are hosts here at Think Tech Hawaii, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaii non-profit that depends on the generosity of its supporters to keep on going. We'd be grateful if you'd go to thinktechhawaii.com and make a donation to support us now. Thanks so much. Thank you, Dustin, for joining us today's segment. And I want to go back to that issue that we just were talking about, whether you should, how businesses decide whether they should do it on their own or whether they should contract that out as far as payroll and HR issues. Yeah, so like I was saying before, having to go out and hire somebody, figuring out what that salary is going to look like, $50,000, $60,000 a year, and then adding on benefits on top of that if your company is going to be able to afford that, or if it's more feasible to outsource that. I think a big trend nowadays has been outsourcing it because it's proven to be a lot more efficient, I think, for businesses to be able to do. Another thing, too, is that you got to worry about is maybe with that employee, that HR person maybe turn over as well, too. So say they decide to move to another company, now you have to go through the process of hiring again and searching for a new HR director, hiring and onboarding and training and everything else. So those are things that can affect the business. I think every company has their own goals and it's something that you could definitely explore more. But you just kind of want to look at those two key factors, I think, whether it's going to be time or it's going to be money. So if you're doing it yourself on the time side or if you're going to be doing it in-house, what that's going to cost you monetarily as well as your turnover issues. As you know, I work with a lot of businesses and whenever we talk about employee or human resources issue, the big concern is retention. Job retention and if you lose an employee, you have to be higher then you have to get the right employee fit and you got to go through all the expenditures of getting that person back to where the previous person was. Now as far as retention, do you know as far as nationwide or locally down here or what is the trend of outsourcing? You said that there is an increasing trend to it and is there retention? Do you know if employees are being... do they stay at the employer less time or more likely to move? Yeah, I mean, that is one of those things is that employees are, especially with millennials and this kind of this new generation that are coming up, the trend is that they're staying at companies less. They're not staying at a company as long as they used to. So that means that a company needs to be a little bit more on it in regards to attraction and retention pieces for that business. So culture has become very important, I think for retention, making sure that it's an environment that employees are feeling challenged, that they're feeling that they're needed and they're wanted and they're appreciated. On the other side of it, there's also going to be benefits. I think it's a big one. So whether it be their major medical benefits, there's also a lot of our companies that we're working with are offering different supplemental types of benefits that really doesn't cost physical dollars for that business but is able to really expand the suite of benefits for the employees. So the employees can participate with more things. We take advantage of certain tax programs as well too that allows us to reduce the taxable payroll for these businesses as well. There's kind of a win-win situation with some of the employee benefits that we've had conversations about with employers. But I think that retention piece is extremely important because one of your biggest costs is when an employee leaves having to rehire, retrain, and then integrate them back into your workforce. As a business advisor, I often come across where my clients, when they first start up a business, they try to decide what type of entity they want to become and so generally they choose a limited liability company or corporation because it basically limits the liability to them personally. But then on the other side, I find that they don't pay enough attention to following, you know, paying the taxes on time or having the internal system from an accounting to payroll that's solid in there besides generating, doing your business and dealing with the customers and you have to have the inside and outside. What type of personal liabilities do people face if they don't pay their taxes on time? Well, how does that work? So that is going to affect you definitely personally.  I think one of the things that I also too, where we've had a lot of conversations to go back to were some of the conversations we had with our clients is that they've had issues with keeping in compliance with things and they haven't been on time with certain things so they got hit with fines and penalties and that's where as a new business you have that luxury of starting everything nice and fresh and from the right way versus having to go back and clean things up later on. That's more expensive. It's always going to cost you more money. So as much as possible, doing things the right way from the beginning and tapping into as many of those resources as possible is always a good place to start for a business. What about you personally now? When you started your own business, what resources did you have or what helped you to get off the ground and are there things that you did right and maybe some things not so right? Yeah, there's a number of things I did not so right. I think that I was very overly optimistic and I think on the time that I could devote into doing things like payroll and handling things that actually should have been handled by somebody else, whether it been outsourcing or hiring somebody else to do it internally. And it slowed the growth of my company. It definitely, you know, those were all learning experiences though. I look at everything as, you know, there's really happens for a reason. So that also too led me into the space I'm in today to be able to help other companies from, you know, kind of avoiding those obstacles. As far as advisors, it's practically impossible for us to know and do everything ourselves. And if you were to suggest or advise to a client, what are the key type of people that they should have on their team like lawyers, accountants, or what is your point of view? Yeah, definitely a good lawyer, accountant, bookkeeper, an insurance person, right? So you want an insurance broker. I think as a, you know, someone who can help guide you through, I mean, if you can get a good business consultant, I think you guys do a great job over there at the SBDC. So, you know, I think those resources are extremely important to be able to, for businesses to reach out to, you know, because you don't know what you don't know. And a lot of this stuff, they don't teach you in school. So you just, you know, got to go out to the right places to figure out where you're going to get it from. So, you know, one of the areas I love to help in, and I think that's one of the areas you love to help in as well too. Yeah, we're both business consultants. Yeah, exactly. As far as when should their HR manual or things be updated, how frequently do you suggest in those areas and as far as what attention must they do periodically in compliance? Yeah, so I mean, first off, I want to say that if you don't have an HR, like an employee handbook set up, and I run into this all the time where a lot of small businesses don't have an employee handbook set up. So it just makes it very difficult to reprimand an employee. It makes it very difficult to, you know, to do any type of employee correction as well as, you know, let alone, you know, let go of an employee as well. And it opens up a lot of liability as well for that business because you don't have any written, stated, you know, guidelines for that employee. So, you know, an employee can say, well, yeah, you know, you could say that I told you to wear non-slip shoes, but the employee, you know, says, well, I don't remember that. You didn't tell me that.  So, you know, I would look at first off setting up a good employee handbook and then part two of that is, you know, you can revisit that. We can revisit that, you know, every year or so. You know, we can look back at some of the previous challenges that have been going on. There's also things regulatory that's going on in government, locally and nationally that are challenges that are happening on a national level that we can kind of key in on and then maybe add into an employee handbook. So, things like social media, right? Social media wasn't a big issue, you know, five, ten years ago. But nowadays it's become an issue. So, you know, we've started looking at building that into, we've actually looked at, we've built that into our employee handbooks for the majority of the company we're working with. Yes, and plus different type of issues that when you're dealing with employees, you know, as far as condo, dress, as far as even in the use of, yes, and treatment of people. And you're also looking at technology too, that's another issue that, you know, in technology when it's used in the right way, it's very beneficial, but when it's used incorrectly, it can be very harmful as well. Exactly. Well, you know, we just have a few seconds left and I wanted to wrap this up by thanking you Dustin for joining our program today and information that you gave us is very valuable and I hope that this will give some important information to people when they're trying to decide, when they start up their business, or when their business grows what decisions do they make to be the most efficient Thank you for joining us. Thanks a lot. Thanks Dennis. Appreciate it.


The mutual broadcasting system, in cooperation with Family Theatre Incorporated.  Isn't it wonderful when things go well, you know, when you make plans and they work out just right? Of course, having things run smoothly in any undertaking, whether it is football, baseball or business, needs understanding. Yes, and that's the secret of a happy home. Mother and father and children working, not at cross purposes, but together. Together with one another, and with God. Yes, in a home where a family works together with God's plans in mind, where there's the daily practice of family prayer, there's real teamwork. Because God will never let you down if you sincerely ask His help. That's why family prayer is so important in all our homes. Family prayer is teamwork with God. Don Amici will return later in the program. Now the Family Theatre presentation of A Rose by Any Other Name, starring Catherine Grayson and Johnny Johnston. Well, it's like this. You see, on a December night, I became the father of an eight-pound baby girl and let me tell you she's some baby. Naturally, I'm pretty proud and happy about the whole thing. So a few days later, I mosey over to the church and I give my friend the pastor the lowdown. Of course, Eddie. We'll arrange to baptize the baby on Sunday, but surely you're not going to inflict that name on the defenseless child. Why, I think it's a very nice name and that's what it's got to be. Well, you know the old saying, a rose by any other name. Now, wait a minute, Eddie. Couldn't you call her Mary or Margaret or Anne? Anne's a fine name. Or take Elizabeth. There's something saintly and feminine about Elizabeth. No, sorry. I've got my mind made up. Eddie, I don't know what's got into you. What in the world ever made you pick a name like that? Well, it's a... Well, let me explain it to you from the beginning. So there I was this day. See, down at the gas station where I work. I put in a new fuel pump and a jalopy when my kid brother Jackie comes walking up to me. His face is a mile long. Hi, Jackie. What's doing? Oh, nothing much. Say, you don't look so happy, kid. It's that new English teacher of mine. Who? Mr. Johnson. Well, what about her? She flunked me again, said my essay was no good. Oh, wait a minute. You mean the essay I helped you with? Yeah. The one on daffodils. She gave me a D minus. Why, the stupid... I wrote essays on daffodils myself and I never got no D minus. Oh, the trouble with her, she's young and dumb. Well, what's... What was wrong with the daffodils? I gave you a couple of corking good ideas for that essay. She said we left the daffodils with seven dangling particles and a couple of split infinitives. Ah, there you are, English teachers. I'll bet she don't know what a daffodil looks like. Why, I'll go up there and tell her a thing or two. It's no use, Eddie. It's too late now. They already dropped me from the basketball team. You mean you're not gonna play tomorrow night against Central? They're dropping you from the team on account of... On account of Miss Johnson and an essay on daffodils. Well, Jackie, you just gotta play tomorrow night. Everybody in town's gonna wonder why you're not on the squad. Keep your shirt on. Do you realize that they elected me to be honorary chairman of the Victory Dance Committee? All right, so what? The Victory Dance Committee.  We'll lose the championship. Sure, sure, but why don't you go tell that to Miss Johnson? Now, don't get me wrong. I mean about Jackie. The team really needed the kid. So something had to be done, and me, the honorary chairman of the Victory Dance Committee, is the guy who's gonna do it. You, uh, you Mr. Raymond Hunt, the principal? Yes, sir. What can I... My name's DeAngelo. Eddie DeAngelo. Yes, Mr. DeAngelo? I run the filling station down the street, Mr. Hunt. I used to go to school here. As a matter of fact, the whole family went to school here. Is that so? Yeah, well, all the DeAngelo's went to Tech High. Well, uh, do you know my kid brother? No, let me see. Jackie. Jackie DeAngelo. The name seems quite familiar. Oh, yes, John DeAngelo. Yeah, that's him. He's the basketball player, Mr. Hunt. One of the best, according to the newspapers, one of the best basketball players in the city, sir. Yes, seems I do recall something of... Top score, he is. Top score. You know him, Mr. Hunt. Jackie DeAngelo. Yes, yes, yes, I know. What exactly do you wish to see me for? Well, Mr. Hunt, my brother Jackie, well, he's been dropped from the team. Some dizzy dame of a school teacher you got here, flunked him for no good reason whatsoever. Well, now, Mr. DeAngelo, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do about that. You see, the scholastic standing of our students... Yeah, but Mr. Hunt, your school is going to get knocked for a loop without Jackie. Look, tomorrow night we play Central. Next week we play Warrington. If we win one more game, just one more game, we got the championship all sewed up. As honorary chairman of the Victory Dance Committee... Excuse me, please. Did you say... Yeah, sure. I'm the honorary chairman of the Victory Dance Committee. And you got to believe me, Mr. Hunt. Tech High ain't going to have a victory dance if my kid brother don't play. If you'll excuse me a minute, sir. I'm expecting a Miss Johnson. Miss Johnson? The English teacher? Yes. She's outside? I believe so. No, if you'll be kind of... Well, she's the one I want to talk to. But Mr. DeAngelo... Are you Miss Johnson? By... Yes, sir. Well, come right in. We've got to straighten out a couple of details here. Miss Johnson, this is Mr. DeAngelo, John's brother. How do you do, Mr. DeAngelo? How do you do? Now, let's get down to brass tacks, shall we? You don't mind if I ask you a personal question, Miss Johnson? Well, no. Not at all. Okay, well, what I want to know is this. Um... Well, why does a whole school have to suffer? Because one teacher doesn't like basketball. One teacher? Yeah. Who, Miss Johnson? Well, who said I didn't like basketball? Well, you flunked my kid brother, didn't you? The kid puts his heart and soul into the work, and you give him a D minus. Oh, are you by any chance referring to John's latest essay?  Well, now you're getting technical. Sure, the kid made a couple of mistakes, a couple of dangling infinitives. Dangling participles, Mr. DeAngelo. See, technical again, as if the whole world's going to blow up because... because something dangles. You've been fully the policy we follow here at Tech High School, Mr. DeAngelo. If you care to make an appointment for some other time, I would appreciate... Now, look here, Mr. Hunt. This is very important. The whole town is rooting for the team. But what's going to happen tomorrow night without Jackie DeAngelo in that game? We haven't got a chance, and you know it. You know it, Mr. Hunt, but you, Miss Johnson. Basketball doesn't make any difference to you. I know, you're an English teacher. You're not worrying about the citizens of this town. All you got to worry about is a couple of split infinitudes. Split infinitives, Mr. DeAngelo. Technical again, you see. No, Mr. DeAngelo... Excuse me, Mr. Hunt. I think I can straighten out this matter. Mr. DeAngelo, as a teacher, I'm not employed here to see that Tech High School wins basketball games. See, prejudice right from the start. And as for your brother, John DeAngelo, well, he's merely another student to me. M... merely the best basketball player in ten years, and he's only another student, she said. Merely another student. A teacher cannot afford to indulge in personalities. I have a specific work to do, regardless of any athletic ability of anybody's brother. The rules state explicitly. If any student fails in any subject, he shall be ineligible for school athletic act... activities. Well, listen to her. Listen to that. Look, I... However, since this basketball game means so much to you and to the citizens of this town, I'll do all I can to cooperate. You mean... you mean you're gonna forget about the whole thing? Well, tell your brother, John, that he's to write another essay. This evening. If the essay deserves a passing mark, he'll be eligible to play tomorrow night. You mean it, Eddie? Yeah, you got another chance, kid. Oh, boy, as well. But how am I gonna write that essay?  You mean you're gonna write the essay for me? Sure. I'll dash it off for you in no time, kid. Can you leave it to me? It's got to be on flowers. On flowers? Why flowers? Oh, she likes flowers. It's either the ocean or clouds or flowers with Miss Johnson. You know, crazy stuff. Okay, flowers, trees, shrubs, anything. Let me handle this for you, kid. You don't think I'm running that filling station on my good looks alone, do you? Now, let's see. Flowers. An essay on flowers. I'm back again, Mr. Hunt. Miss Johnson phoned me and asked me to come over to your office. Oh, yes. She'll be here any minute. I believe she wants to see you about an essay. Oh, yeah. That's right.  Sure. Oh. Oh, hello, Miss Johnson. How do you do? See, how'd you like Jackie's essay?  Well, the sentence structure was perfect. And the treatment was most coherent. Punctuation and spelling, well, they were excellent. Oh, well, I knew the kid had it in him all the time. As a matter of fact, the essay was so good, that I decided to have Mr. Hunt, our principal, read it to you in your presence, Mr. D'Angelo. Oh, that's a swell idea, and to think that Jackie was holding out on us all the time. Here you are, Mr. Hunt. Yeah. The roses. Roses are climbing shrubs, generally more or less copiously provided with thorns of various shapes and with glandular hairs, as in the sweet briar or in the moss rose of garden. That's very, very good if you ask me, huh? Thank you very much, Mr. Hunt. I think that'll be enough.  Undoubtedly, Mr. D'Angelo. In my books, an essay like that deserves at least an A-plus. As a matter of fact, I've already marked it an A-plus, Mr. D'Angelo. Oh, gosh, Miss Johnson. Say that's awfully nice of you. I guess I had you all wrong from the start.  Your brother Jackie will not be eligible to play tonight. And boy, with him playing on the... What? What'd you say? I said your brother Jackie will not be eligible to play tonight.  I believe I made myself clear. I don't get it. He does not play. But the essay? Well, what about the essay? Well, you just gave him an A-plus. Mr. D'Angelo, I gave the Encyclopedia of Bricktanica an A-plus. Your brother without your assistance is merely incompetent, Mr. D'Angelo. And your brother with your assistance is... Well, he's not only incompetent, he's dishonest, Mr. D'Angelo. Well, what'd she say, Eddie? She humiliated me, that's what she did. In front of Mr. Hunt, she humiliated me. My character, my reputation, me, the honorary chairman of the Victory Dance Committee. Well, I... I told you to lay off that Encyclopedia of Bricktanica stuff. Okay, okay, so it wasn't on the up and up. Why does she have to make such a hullabaloo about it? Well, you'd think I murdered a half dozen women and children to listen to her.  Who does she think she is? Okay, okay, forget it, huh? I won't forget about it. If Tech loses the game tonight, I'm going to fix her wagon, wait and see. Boy, if we can only keep that lead, we got the championship in the bag. Score, third quarter, Central 57, Tech 58. You see what I mean, Jackie, if you were in there, we'd be way out in front. Final score, Central 72, Tech 68. Well, you see, it was just like I figured it. In the last quarter, our team just, well, folded up. The kids were pretty miserable that night. Why, we should have beat Central by at least 10 baskets. But what happens? The Tech Quintet hailed as the smartest aggregation of basketball players in the state goes down to defeat. And why? Because a certain young boob of a school teacher happens to think that an essay on flowers is the most important thing in life. You should have heard the talk around town the next morning. Hey, Eddie, where was Jackie last night? Yeah, the angel just drops mysteriously out of line up. Yeah, everybody in town's talking about it. Well, let me tell you something. If he say that next week's game, Tech won't have a chance of winning the championship. Yeah, I know. Next week's game, huh? Our last chance to win the cup. Why do you keep getting so excited about it, Eddie? Look, Jackie, we got a dance coming up after this week's game with Warrington. Yeah, I know. And I'm supposed to make a speech. Well, what about it? You sit there and ask me what about it. What kind of a victory speech am I going to make if there ain't no victory? Don't ask me. All on account of one school teacher. Take it easy, yeah. Now, look, we got to figure out some way to get you into next week's game. Well, we might as well forget it. There was only some way of putting the pressure on Miss Johnson. You follow me? Yeah, but... Some way of putting her on the spot so we could get you back into the lineup.  Listen, there's nobody so high and mighty that they can't be pulled down a couple of pegs. Well, why don't you stand under her window and start calling her names? That'll pull her down a couple pegs. No, you got to be sensible about this thing. You can't just... By the way, what is her name or full name? Clementine Johnson. Clementine? Yeah. Holy mackerel, Clementine. Are you sure that's her first name? Yeah, I saw in the files one day. Say, with a name like that, I'm beginning to get ideas. Oh, boy, it really worked. We rounded up a gang of fellas over at Tech and they got the idea right off of the bat. For three full days we put the pressure on. Three full days, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Oh, boy, we fixed Clementine's wagon. The fellas marched all over the campus with big posters. Roses are red, daffodils yellow, Clementine's blue if she can't flock a fellow. Some people get headaches, some people get sinus, but Clementine suffers from a case of D-minus. Yeah, pretty soon everybody got into the spirit of the thing. They even had a quartet sing below her window on Tuesday night.  Now, for three solid days they had demonstrations all over the campus. Then on Thursday afternoon it happened. I'm walking along the street near the high school, figured I'd take a little time off from the filling station just to see how things were developing. All of a sudden I see Miss Johnson come out of one of the buildings. Boy, she looked almost frightened, like a kid expecting to get hit with a snowball. Then a voice calls from somewhere across the campus. When she heard her name, she seemed to walk faster, pulled her coat tighter around her. It was on those cold gray days, leaves flying all over the street. She was heading toward me, so I waited for her to reach me. Oh, it's you. Yeah. Well, why don't you call me Clementine? Well, why don't you? I've become very popular around here. Why don't you call me Clementine?  For the first time I saw how it hurt. I saw her pale face and her eyes crying behind the glasses she was wearing. I saw the books she carried and that dull brown coat she wore. Well, tell you she looked sad, but that sort of a quiet sadness you find around old libraries at five o'clock in the afternoon. So, well, that night I... I felt sorry for her, so I decided to go see her. Uh, Miss Johnson, I came down here to apologize. I'm sorry. I admit I pulled some cheap stunts. I guess I lost my head. I know I hurt you and I'm sorry. Honest I am, Miss Johnson, and I'm asking you to please forgive me. She looked at me for a couple of seconds. I forgive you, Mr. DiAngelo? Oh, you can call me Eddie if you want to. Nobody around here ever calls me Mr. DiAngelo. You know, perhaps I'm being a bit over-emotional about it. I mean, my name, Clementine. But you see, all my life I've tried, but never quite succeeded in escaping it. The association's connected with it. Clementine. Well, when I was younger, I was afraid I'd grow up and have shoes that were number nine's. Herring boxes without topses. Do you remember the song, Clementine? Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Well, I used to shudder when people called my name. Even the children I grew up with ridiculed me. Well, innocently perhaps. But it hurt.  I ended that sentence with a preposition. Well, that's nothing. Miss Johnson, there's going to be a basketball game Friday night. Yes. And after the game, we're going to have a victory dance. Yes, so I understand. Well, well, maybe, uh... Oh, well, would you like to go to the basketball game? Is this an invitation? Yeah, honestly. Well, yes. Well, yes, I'd like to go to a basketball game. Oh, good. Then don't forget. And after the game, there's the victory dance. Mr. D'Angelo. Are you sure there's going to be a victory dance? The teams are on the floor. The gym is packed with people. The last quarter and the place is going wild. The score is tied. Come on, Tech, just one more basket. 40 seconds left to play. 35 seconds, 25, 20. And then... That happens. With 10 seconds left to play, Waringdon shoots the winning basket. We lost the game 60 to 58. Oh, boy, when you get that close to the silver cup, it's kind of hard to see a drop out of your hands. Well, I could tell Miss Johnson doesn't feel so good about it.  Yeah? Well, if Jackie had played tonight, Tech would have won. Oh, that's what everybody says. Oh, there's no use crying over spelt milk. Mr. D'Angelo, if you don't mind, I'd like to go home. Oh, but the dance, you're going to stay for the dance. Please, I... I can't stay. Clementine? I said, Clementine, your name. You know, you got to get used to hearing me say it. Yes, Mr. D'Angelo. I'm supposed to make a speech tonight. Yes, I know. Will you do me a special favor? Oh? All right. Will you please stick around and see that I don't split any participles? Again, it's my pleasure to give you the honorary chairman of the dance committee, Eddie D'Angelo. Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Well, this is supposed to be a victory dance, and it is a victory dance. Tonight, we put a team out there on the floor, boys we were proud of, and on the basketball court, and in the classroom. They played a swell game, but they lost. Sure, we lost the championship, okay, but we lost it fair and square. We lost it honest. Thanks to one person here in the audience tonight, Ms. Johnson. Oh, we could have pulled strings, but we didn't. So we got nothing to be ashamed of. Now, I'd like to say something special tonight, but first, well, someone please escort Ms. Johnson to this platform. That's it, right? That's it.  Please, right up this... here. Mr. D'Angelo, what in the world? Take it easy, Clementine. Nothing to get excited about. As honorary chairman of the victory dance committee, it gives me great pleasure to extend to Ms. Johnson on behalf of the student body this token of our esteem a bouquet of flowers. Why, they're beautiful. Daffodils and roses for Ms. Johnson. Before everybody starts cutting the rug, let me say this. Shakespeare once said, a rose by any... Oh, I don't know. You know what I mean, but in this case, I don't think Ms. Johnson knows what I mean. I respectfully request her to listen. Will you play a little music, please? All the roses sing All the daffodils swing For sweet Clementine All the daisies play All the buttercups sway For sweet Clementine When she goes a-walkin' All the world's in tune Stars begin to bounce with rhythm Clouds begin to dance Across the sky with the moon All the flowers rhyme All the birdies keep time For sweet Clementine All the waves at sea Beat a symphony For sweet Clementine So if the birds and the bees The flowers and trees Think she's mighty fine Just imagine Just imagine What my heart thinks Of sweet Clementine You were wonderful tonight. I didn't know you could sing, Mr. DiAngelo. Oh, will you please call me, Eddie, huh? Did you write that song yourself, Eddie? Well, you can bet your boots I didn't get it out of the Encyclopedia Britannica. And you wrote it for me? Why, who else in the world's got a name like you? Oh, Eddie. So you see, Pastor, we got married six months later. You married? Clementine, the school teacher, of course. Good for you, Eddie. Now we've got a baby girl, and boy, is she gonna be a basketball player. Well, you should see the way she dribbles already. Congratulations, Eddie. That's the reason why... That's the reason why you want her to be baptized Clementine? Yeah. Well, for heaven's sake, why didn't you say so in the first place? Clementine's a wonderful name. Clementine is a beautiful name. Like what me and Shakespeare always says. A rose by any other... Oh, well, you know what I mean. A rose by any other name. Hestar, Johnny Johnston, and Catherine Grayson. Now, here is tonight's family theater host, Donna Michi. As parents, all of us have a special joy and happiness when we see our children growing up strong and healthy. We don't begrudge efforts or expenses for them because we want to do all we can to give them equal opportunities with others. We want to see them develop, not only physically, but intellectually, morally, and spiritually. Because men and women without moral strength and a spiritual outlook can find no worthwhile purpose or meaning or accomplishment in life. That's why family prayer is a necessary part of good home life. Our example as parents, our sincerity, our reverence and respect for God when we pray together as a family is the greatest inspiration we can give our children to live good and useful lives. There is a right spirit in a home where family prayer is a daily practice. A spirit of moral and spiritual growth. A spirit of unity and understanding. Because the family that prays together stays together. Before saying goodnight, I'd like to thank Catherine Grayson and Johnny Johnston for their performances this evening. Our thanks to Timothy Mulvey for writing tonight's play, to William McGuire for his song Sweet Clementine and to Max Tear for his music. His production of Family Theatre Incorporated was directed by David Young. Others who appeared in tonight's play were Norman Field, Rollin Morris, Herb Rollinson, Frank Gerstle. Next week our Family Theatre stars will be John Charles Thomas and John Nesbitt in Mr. Nesbitt's story of The Juggler of Our Lady. Your hostess will be Irene Dunn. This is Don Amici saying goodnight and God bless you. This series of the Family Theatre broadcast is made possible by the thousands of you and all the need for this kind of program. And by a friend of the New York Foundling Hospital which cares for homeless and motherless babies without distinction of race, creed or color. Tony Loprano speaking. This is the Mutual Broadcasting System.


Hello, this is Jenkins Platform Sieg meeting September 9, 2022. Today we have Mark Wait, of course, and myself, Bruno Vrusha, and today the subject are numerous. On the agenda, we have some open action items. We'll talk about the preview suffix from GDK 17 agent images. We'll talk also about the talk or image management for Jenkins agent. And also the Docker container deprecation for the blue ocean container. And we'll see something about the request for specific tools in the Docker images. Yes, because, yes, we removed Coal a few weeks ago. Of course, we'll talk about Java 11, Java 17, and DevOps World, which is in a few weeks from now. Mark, it looks like there is an open action item on your side. Yes, I've shared credentials for the system 390 machine already. I haven't shared those yet. So that still stays as an open item, probably several weeks before I'll get to it. Of course. No hurry, no hurry. Now, for the preview suffix removal from GDK 17 agent images, we had open three pull requests, which have been, no, pull request issues, sorry. And somebody that came out of the blue made three pull requests that were merged. Yes, a new contributor. That's something nice. Thanks a lot. Whoever, maybe I forgot the name on the contributor, unfortunately. Anyway, thanks a lot. Now, yeah, container repository management for Jenkins agent. Mark, could you tell us a few things about that? Yeah, so the struggle here is that right now we have many, we have multiple repositories. And with multiple, multiple repositories that are managing multiple container images. So there is a multiple repositories and multiple images from those repositories. And with the multiple contain multiple repositories, it's quite difficult to do a release process that is clean, simple and comprehensible. So releases are unnecessarily complicated. Yes, I encountered that a few weeks a month ago when I tried to add the ARM64 architecture for a few Docker images. And frankly, we missed some things. There were some versions missing and it made a mess. Yes, I totally agree. It is too complicated. Right. Well, and the stacking and the layering is another piece. Now, we probably cannot get rid of any of the layers or any of the conceptual blocks because people depend upon them in some way or other. However, one of the proposals is from Damian DuPortal is to combine the repositories into a single repository that could then be used to deliver to multiple destinations. However, we've got to do more designing and more planning work to accomplish it because what we cannot do is we cannot just drop support for the existing container images. People expect them to continue simplifying the release process. It's not justification to drop or to rename labels. We've got to be sure we retain compatibility. Of course. And that's really it. Then there's one more topic, which is this separate repository for Jenkins agents with tools installed. Which is linked to a topic we'll address later on in this meeting. Oh, yes. Yes. Good point. So that one, let's talk to it later then. They are not actively maintained and many of the agents, many of the container images are still using Java 8 and that just won't work with the most recent LTS. So they have to be switched, either they need to switch, need to be upgraded or we acknowledge that they're ended. And I think people will want, let's just say it, there's not an either here. They need to be upgraded. We don't have any metrics about the number of times these have been downloaded. Are they used frequently or not? Ah, actually Docker Hub does provide download metrics. And I'm sure that what we would see is some of them are heavily used and others are rarely used. Yes. So that we have a list of priorities if we have to update them. Good idea. Right. Okay. It's not very precise on the Docker Hub repo directly. You have to use the API, I'm afraid, to have the real numbers. For example, I have one Docker image, which is more than 2.1 million downloaded. And on Docker, it just written 1 million. No, it's wrong. Oh, okay, all right. But if you use the API, you'll have the precise number. I see. Good. Well, that's very good. Whoops. That was my shameless, auto promo moment. Good. Yeah, any questions on container repository management for Jenkins agents? No, I only agree that that's necessary to do something simpler. Yeah. So I think it'll be a topic for discussion at the contributor summit. Oh, nice. Because we'll have the right people present there for a good discussion. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So let's just plan on it. I don't know that we should put it on the agenda, but rather over the lunch table or just sitting around, we can talk through because we'll have Damian there, we'll have Kim Jacome there, I'll be there, Bruno, you'll be there. We've got the right players to be part of that discussion. Super. Next topic is Docker container deprecation for the Blue Ocean container. We've seen lots of efforts from Kevin, for example, regarding the Blue Ocean, putting message just about everywhere saying, you know, it deprecated. You maybe shouldn't count on it. But that's not the case yet for the Docker container. So yes, we have something to do regarding that container. Yeah. And this deprecation really, there's some software needed here, right? We can certainly change the text on the Docker Hub page. The challenge is most people don't read that page. Once they've got the container working, they will never look at it again. And if they did look at it, they may not recognize whatever change we make. So then the question is, do we put it in an LTS change log? Do we add it to Jenkins.io pages? And then the bigger question, do we do something like a Jenkins administrative monitor that pops up and says, gives you a warning in the top right-hand corner of Jenkins controller.  Please make plan your switch to this other container. So is that a discussion for the documentation Sieg and for the Jenkins governance meeting? Actually, I think these are something that we can handle here. Because it's all part of what I'd call the platform side. So for me, the biggest challenge is this one. It means someone has to write the administrative monitor. It's a little bit of Java code. And then test it that it works end to end. And that the whatever file we're using to make the decision shall we show it is only in the Blue Ocean container and not in other containers, et cetera. So there's some software work there. That, I think, is the right way to do it for the healthiest experience for Jenkins users. These other places are certainly minimum necessary. And we want those as well. Cool. Now the next step for me, I think, is really we just this is work that needs to be done and we report on it regularly in platform Sieg meetings. OK. So we should give ourselves a task to have a look at that Java code. So I'm OK to contribute to that, even if I don't know where to start. But. Yes. Well, so and I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm ready to put an action item yet as much as knowing that let's keep let's discuss it and begin the ideas of, hey, here are the kinds of things we think should be done. Maybe maybe the answer here is and maybe this is a valid action item is create an issue in the Jenkins packaging repository. Or the docker see the challenges, which one maybe it will create an issue that proposes this, yes, exactly, that proposes the deprecation and includes details of the steps to do it. OK, good idea. Yeah, because that now that's one the challenge that is the creating the issue really does mean defining the plan. Good. All right. Next subject now is the request for specific tools in the docker images because, yes, we had some tools earlier in the versions goal, for example, and you told me the other day that we previously all also had some other tools that were removed from images. But yes, sometimes we have to do some cleanup and code is not strictly necessary in our docker images. So, yes, it's gone. We feel sorry for the users who heavily dependent on it. But the way it is, from what I understood for more advanced Jenkins users is, yes, these image are there, but for you to augment them, to change them to add the tool that you need and you should not rely on them to do everything and to be bundled with all the tools that you need, you should just extend these images. Am I right, Mark? That's correct. And it's a general case problem. If we get into the mode of, oh, we'll deliver the tools you need, we now become responsible for the care and maintenance of those tools and delivering versions of those tools and making sure that when a security issue arises in those tools that we resolve that security issue, it's part of what makes it so challenging to have these images, like we mentioned earlier, with separate tools in them, right? Well, it's got, we deliver a Python image, but it may not be the current, most current Python release or it may be the current Python release and that's not what they want. Yeah, so the intent is we want users to extend from our base image. Now, one of the concerns expressed by a voice in that thread was, hey, that's complicated. And the answer is yes, it is. Container management is non-trivial, but the alternative is also non-trivial and the Jenkins project just doesn't have enough people to maintain everybody's tooling images. You're right. And I'm sure there was always a tutorial somewhere telling us how to extend the base Docker Jenkins images. And if not, we definitely should write one, but I'm sure it already exists and it is well-referenced. I could maybe add a reference to that if I find it in the thread to help the users and we should have a prepared answer for all the users who will face the same kind of issues. That's my belief. That's very good because the Jenkins infrastructure team uses exactly this technique, the extension technique. So we must have an example because they're doing it. And they host their image definitions publicly. So yes, they certainly do exist. I don't know that there's a tutorial that shows how to do it, but I do know that it's there. And actually, this is a candidate for somebody who could ask at DevOps World and they ask me anything session with Damian DuPortal and Erwe LeMire that, hey, how are you managing your Docker images and why? Yes, and the answer is not, you don't want to know that. No, it is not. Good. Any other remarks on that subject? That's it. That's all for me. Thank you. Next one is we Crier Java 11 on newer for Jenkins Core. Yes, congratulations everyone. 2.361.1 has released, is available, and there are C, the change log, the upgrade guide. There was a blog post from CDF on it. There was also a live stream yesterday, so many resources available to help people. Great. That's it for Java 11 for me. Yeah, what about Java 17 then? So, and there it's ongoing. And there have been a few recent reports that are working through, but in general, working quite well, it seems to be working quite well. The Jenkins infrastructure team is planning to put one or more of their machines on JDK 11, on JDK 17. 17, yeah. Yeah. Great. And it is what it is, but it's still working for me on a daily basis, but I have nothing complicated, but I'm happy to work with Java 17 nonetheless. Cool. Next subject is DevOps world in Orlando. We will have a contributor summit presentation, I think it's on the Tuesday. Yes, yes it is. And some people from AWS will tell us about how to use EC2 instances of macOS, to be able to build more easily iOS and macOS applications, I guess. It won't be a long presentation, but I'm sure they will be around the rest of the day, so that we can discuss with them in their booth, for example. Or I think that for the contributor summit, we also have next to that a booth, a Jenkins IO booth, and that we also have a place where we can give some quick talks and so on. So maybe they could also interact with our users there. But anyway, that's a good thing to have news about instances of macOS in EC2, because my experience is that it was kind of difficult and pricey. And I read a few things here and there, let's say that now it's easier and maybe cheaper. So I want to know more about that. Great. And I think that the end of the agenda, whoa, that's what I call an efficient meeting. Super, thanks very much. Thank you, Mark.