Okay, so we see some of the attendees rolling in. Hello everyone. Welcome. It's really nice to see so many repeat attendees representatives from Wick Forest Cherokee Nation Oh, yeah, there's Jack Baker Special welcome to Dr. Curtin Roberts who was with us last night and Dr. Faul who will be with us very soon as a keynote So welcome to our Saturday conference session we will would like to welcome everyone here and introduce the conveners My name is Grant McAllister. I am an associate professor and Levison faculty fellow in The Department of German and Russian at Wake Forest University. I am one of the three co-conveners for this conference welcome to today's first session for the morning and We're very happy to have you with us Good morning. My name is Ulrike Wietaus. I'm professor in the department for the study of religions at Wake Forest University and I'm one of the three co-conveners. I would like our to begin our time this morning with a land acknowledgement statement from our university The conference recognizes and respects the indigenous peoples of our region as a traditional stewards of this land Our conference acknowledges the enduring relationship that exists between indigenous peoples and their traditional territories The land on which Wake Forest University now resides And the land on which the original campus resided has served and continues to serve as a place for exchange and interaction for indigenous peoples specifically in the past the SORA and in the past and today the Kataba, Cherokee and Lambi nations in the current location and historically the Shakori, Eno, Sisi Paho and Okanichi peoples in the original campus location I welcome you to another full day of good conversations and a town-on-cown relationship My name is Eric Elliott. I'm the archivist here at the Moravian Archives in Winston-Salem We welcome you again to what's been a wonderful four days of interchange and information And connection of both of our past our present and I hope good things for our future. Thank you Thank you, Eric I'd now like to introduce Phil Archer He is the Betsy main Babcock director of program and interpretation at the Renolda House Museum of American Art Originally our conference was going to be held at the Renolda house on this final day And if you can see Phil there, there is a virtual background of the Renolda house So we are still bringing the Renolda house to you, although virtually He is going to offer a couple of opening remarks about the Renolda conference and Welcome you here to our conference. So go ahead Phil Thank you Grant and good morning everyone. It's an honor to join the co-conveners to welcome you to the third day of the Becoming American Conference As Grant mentioned you've heard this referred to as a Renolda conference. What's the story there? This name harkens back to a series of events held in the 1920s in the reception hall of Renolda that's pictured behind me Long before this room displayed the landscapes by Cole and church and Albert Bierstadt, which Alison Slaby shared with you yesterday This room hosted interdisciplinary encounters of visiting scholars Invited from across the country to debate and it was hoped reconciled branches of academic inquiry The first of these syncretic gatherings tried to cut no less a Gordian knot than reconciling Christian dogma with the theory of evolution This was 1924 one year prior to the scopes trial And the teaching of evolution was illegal in many parts of the nation It's notable that this conference embraced the theory and some of the proceedings were even published at the time This zeal for rigorous intellectual engagement across disciplines continues in the present conference and I deeply enjoyed seeing a community of interest develop over the past couple of days among all the participants in this conference As dispersed as we are neighborliness without nearness is one thing we have learned fortunately And this conference has I think an especially neighborly spirit um speaking of neighbors orica vitals asked me to Share a bit about historic ties between Renolda and Salem The fact is there would be no Renolda and therefore no Wake Forest campus in Winston Salem Without the town and especially the schools of Salem It may seem surprising in retrospect that rj Reynolds of virginia native It have selected the tiny hamlet of Winston, North Carolina population 443 souls to locate his tobacco company and eventual eventually empire His decision was based on three factors Not meravian stars in spice cookies or sugar sugar cake as far as we know But rather the soil that was propitious for a bright leaf tobacco Um proximity to rail lines that could could lead his product out to major markets And thirdly the meravians next door in Salem who had established a strong tradition of progressive education Three of rj Reynolds sisters and several cousins had attended the Salem Academy and he admired The industriousness and the commitment to education that he witnessed when visiting them By the time of reynolds death in 1918 Winston Salem was the state's largest city And the industry capital family trees had all intertwined between meravian and non meravian As the textile and tobacco boom town expanded and eventually merged The reynolds's eldest child rj Reynolds jr attended the boys school at Salem for just one year before Contracting measles, but he must have formed a few happy memories in that brief time because in 1941 He purchased the Salem tavern which martha heartley showed us yesterday on her virtual tour And he donated it to the wakovia historical society for restoration Around that same time his sister mary reynolds badcock and her husband charles badcock Took a similar interest in restoring Salem into quote another williamsburg And they commissioned an architectural survey of the town which guided the work of a planning committee Mary reynolds badcock died in 1953, but her husband charles carried on the preservation work without her Old Salem's founding president james gray Named badcock as the person primarily responsible for Salem Becoming a museum of meravian history and culture open to the public Salem reborn as old sale There is every indication that the reynolds heirs recognized that the tobacco company Would not have taken hold or taken off without the support of the meravian citizenry And they demonstrated their indebtedness through historic preservation Preservation is of course one ingredient of a community's awareness and appreciation of its history With programs like this week's conference community learning is deepened Through confronting and understanding the past with greater nuance and complexity Including the legacy of crimes against humanity These fresh reexaminations provide a necessary and healthy counterbalance An extension to his historic preservation I'm very grateful to our co-convenors orica vitals grant mccallister and eric elliott for all their planning Stage managing orica even has her head stage manager head And their generous hospitality We felt very well cared for Thanks also to our friends at the humanities institute Dean franco amy mephem and victoria lang for their vision and support of the conference From the outset Thanks finally to the scholars whose most recent research and insights Will have the privilege of hearing shortly I'm so glad to be with you all. Thank you and on behalf of reynolds. Welcome Thank you so much Thank you so much Grant uh, you are muted Huh Thank you. I think I've got it now um See someone was trying to share a screen there um So I'd like to welcome everyone to our conference and talk a little bit about the title Title of our conference is becoming american Moravian's and their neighbors 1772 through 1822 I would like to do this to begin our final day of proceedings And I'd like to start with a quotation that directly engages the first part of our conference title Namely that of becoming an american quote It was finally decided to sail and about 10 o'clock the anchor was lifted Well, we prayed earnestly that it might not be dropped again until we were safe in a harbor in our fatherland end quote The statement is from Ludwig david von schweinitz in the year 1812 The word fatherland might not initially seem that unusual However, it belies a critical shift in attitudes about national identity taking root in Salem moravian culture The word fatherland does not appear in the wakovia diaries until this statement in 1812 initially moravian's professional loyalty to any king region or state According to guisela mettola moravian's quote saw themselves as part of a worldwide community or reyes goddess an empire of god But in Salem in 1812 that changed We would like to know why the other half of our conference title suggests that the answer lies in the figure of the neighbor itself a complex signifier implying both kindness and competition dominance and subjugation And cultivating their existence moravian scored the land with plows and palisades and demarcated a neighborhood of inclusion and exclusion both physically and conceptually Understanding how an ethically fraught interplay of cultures within this space led to a proclamation of national identity is the challenge that inaugurated our conference and the subsequent discussions therein We have asked philip john sensbach to join us today To summarize our thoughts and to present to you a window into our morning discussions and deliberations about this problem so without further delay i'd like to introduce to you john sensbach And he will then provide a summary of our morning deliberations John sensbach is a professor in the department of history at the university of florida. He received his phd in 1991 In early american history from duke university He teaches courses on early america the black atlantic the atlantic slave trade colonial america and the american revolution among several others I just kind of picked the From the list large list that he has Professor sensbach has been an neh fellow at the national humanity center and an neh postdoctoral fellow at the Omohon duro Institute duro institute for early american history and culture his most recent book Is rebecca's revival creating black christianity in the atlantic world He is also the author of a separate kanan the making of an afromarabian world in north carolina And i think many here in this region are very familiar with that work He is also the co-author of the new history of the american south worth coming from unc press and he's an author of many other Books and articles so without further ado Welcome john Thanks very much Okay, all right. Sorry i'm gonna have to As feared i'm gonna have to open my my other screen Sorry if this means i'm gonna break up, but i have to do it Well, first of all, uh, thank you for for that introduction and thank you for to to the conveners first of all for hosting this conference um for conceptualizing it and uh and and for Uh, moving so adroitly in these perilous times to this different format and you've managed it very well indeed and everything has come off extremely smoothly. Um, thank you for the invitation to take part um What what i'm going to do is to offer some general Conceptual ideas that we can it can help perhaps frame our discussion and then i'm going to very briefly Summarize each of the papers that we've listened to over the past couple of days And i'll pose some questions Uh to the presenters and then we can open it up to whatever format the discussion will will take um I I would I would start by observing that that the the raging story that we've been talking about is the first and foremost a story of immigration And and i'm reminded of uh of the the very influential book Very famous book by austere handland Many years ago, but uh called the uprooted very influential book And handland famously begins that book by saying once i thought to write a history of the immigrants in america Then i discovered that the immigrants were american history and handland's book offers Uh a series of very influential tropes and themes that have shaped the discussion of immigration themes of uprootedness themes of leaving One's homeland of escaping oppression and poverty To come to a strange country where you might not speak the language Where you encounter unfamiliar life ways? You get homesick for the old country The search for economic security in this new place All of that gives way According to handland's formulation and and as it's since been identified as This sort of gives way to this mysterious process of americanization of learning english of adapting to new customs and expectations of the tensions between the traditional and the new Between loss and gain Between sacrifice and fulfillment, especially for one's children and grandchildren. There's a generational dimension here That americanization in this process is not quick. It's it doesn't happen overnight, but it can spin out over several generations The story of immigration therefore immigration history that has proceeded from these assumptions Is generally one of progress of assimilation and transformation Of the untethering of the self in a new world of freedom and possibility The gradual letting go of old ways to embrace the better life and democratic ethos of this new place called america What is this american this new man? famously asked Hector St. Jean de Clair in 1787 He is an american who leading behind him all his ancient prejudices and manners Receives new ones from the new life. He is embraced the new government. He obeys and the new rank he holds He becomes an american by being received into the broad lap of our alma mater This formulation has had enduring resonance throughout american history. It still has enormous allure A kind of a mystical almost primal attraction for the way we think about ourselves As americans, we still think of ourselves as as a nation of immigrants as is commonly formulated Even in our own time when immigration remains a divisive and explosive political issue In recent years scholars have of course challenged this version of of immigration history and recognize the limitations to it How how do we count for the presence of the original americans indigenous? Americans unless we consider them the original immigrants 25 000 years ago How does their story play out in this nation of immigrants? What about this story of enslaved africans? Those who were forced against their will to immigrate to america Um, and and do not did not initially enjoy for hundreds of years the the supposed fruits and benefits of Of this new melting pot this new creation called america Both of these themes obviously are central to this conference into the papers that that that we've heard and we'll continue discussing Still, uh, any features of the moravian story are recognizable from this basic outline Here we have a a group of german settlers mostly german settlers Trying to maintain what was distinctive about their culture and religion The older generation Casting themselves as defenders of tradition Actuously trying to fend off the appeal of american freedoms the younger generations constantly chafing against regulations Pushing against the boundaries to expand their ability to think and act for themselves As this struggle played out for much of the 18th century and into the 19th There's broad consensus among scholars that it was a it was powerfully shaped by the american revolution And the creation of the united states that had involved a gradual shift toward participation in public life and the political process A transition from a communal ethos to individualism From the german language to english And from a sacred sacred to a secular outlook The net result of all this is that the moravians became more like their anglophone non moravian neighbors increasingly in the 19th century Less distinctive less german more american Another feature of the ravian story that's recent recognizable in more recent scholarship is the connection between immigration and racial formation We can see this in the titles of recent books published about the immigration experience How the irish became white is one title How jews became white folks is another Working toward whiteness how america's immigrants became white these titles reflect a common theme of immigrant outsiders Who are coded as racially ambiguous and suspect Who in order to fit in To american society once they get here Embrace the racist practices that they had found to establish themselves as white The ravens fit that pattern as well. They initially accept blacks into fellowship They're rumored to harbor runaway slaves. Their loyalty in the american revolution is suspect And so to affirm their status as white citizens in the new republic They began erecting physical and emotional barriers between themselves And the black brothers and sisters they once shared church benches with And so these conference papers explore how all these changes can be charted through moravian material culture religious practice music racial mores archival keeping history writing By the presence of slavery and enslaved people in the community And as part of the community And by moravian connections to indigenous americans specifically the charities in this instance The overarching theme is I see it that emerges emerges from all of this work And as we'll see is that there were There were competing and overlapping versions of what it meant to be american There was no consensus then nor is there now about what an american identity is or was Either among the moravians were in the nation of large Did it mean allegiance to a nation state? Did it mean a shared culture and history? And if so what were though that culture and history is being american Equivalent to citizenship in the united states And if nationalism is an imagined community as benedict anerson calls it Whose imagination called the american community into being and how did moravians respond to that? So we had four different research sessions each with several papers in them I'm going to very quickly summarize each of these papers And and then ask a question to kind of Encapsulate what I see as the themes in each of these panels the first session that we had on thursday morning was called arts architecture and culture uh, and this was a panel about uh adaptability In moravian material culture and music that reflected a gradual acculturation to what the presenters Uh consider a broad theme of americanization david bergstone Reflected on architectural changes from traditional european building forms to american national styles Um, and this is reflected in the architectural legacy, particularly in old salem We see by the turn of the 19th century larger single-family homes in the federal style by 1800 1810 Uh a turn away from the sort of smaller european styles that that had prevailed in the early years of salem's creation And in this shift bergstone argues Um reflected a turn away from communalism toward privatization and individualism Toward the accumulation of greater wealth and individual agency as reflected in Very spacious homes in old salem, particularly the bierling house and john bogler house To to cite two prominent examples. So these architectural shifts bergstone argues represented a turn away from certain aspects that had marked the moravians As as a kind of communally oriented people when they first settled David bloom Explores the collections of the moravian music foundation to tell a story of musical choices that reflected gradual shifts away from German and sacred music to secular tastes during the so-called golden age of americ of moravian music between 1750 and 1830 He argues that sacred music itself was never abandoned But that diverse selections from Beethoven to the star-spangled banner and other diverse american compositions. So a gradual Americanization of musical tastes similarly stewart carter Examined early performances of francios of heidens the creation In salem in the early 19th century He argues that this famous piece of music was was performed for the first time in in in the american south in salem in 1829 And this performance shows a gradual acceptance of non-sacred orchestral music in the community Musical choices reflected tension between the church authorities and the collegium music on the musical town musical authority Overgrowing secularization But these performances represented what he calls watershed in the musical life of salem And then finally jeff hughes examines ceramic styles in the late 18th century and early 19th century He asks in what ways did americanism Acceptably moravian and he explores this dichotomy Through ceramic styles. He argues that the assimilation of english ceramic styles into and alongside german styles By well-known moravian potters such as rudolf christ Represented to turn from traditional germanic coarse earthenware to more refined stoneware valued by non moravians in the region And this adaptation Shows a willingness to change for practical reasons and therefore a shift toward americanization We see in these papers the synthesis of styles and tastes in material culture and music That present evidence of a gradual shift toward toward americanization But they also blur the lines between what was german american and moravian And between the sacred and secular making it difficult to distinguish what was what And in this mysterious process of americanization How do we know what what what is what is it the process of adaptation itself? that is american and does that reflect a a synthesis of a willingness to accept Whole melding of ideas from all kinds of different influences so therefore my my question Would be for this group did changes in architecture music and ceramics represent a conscious set of choices to embrace americanization And if so, what did becoming american mean to those who made those choices as reflected in the material culture musical sensibilities By the way, i'm i'm i'm reminded of the magnificent recent article by rachel wheeler and sarah irely Who reconstruct mehican moravian 18th century hymns? And and and in fact that this represents a different kind of americanization in a different context by By indigenous americans, but the fusion of musical cultures Uh, it represents this kind of adaptation this kind of reformulation by by different group of of of americans And we might see a similar kind of thing in a different context in in the north carolina ravian settlement session two It was called religion gender and economics and this this panel reflected broadly on on the way Religious changes economic and gender changes in the In the late 18th or late 19th century reflected this broader pattern of what they see as americanization Craig atwood Uh grounds our understanding of the wakobia settlement in the original vision of count zinzendorf and august schmagenberg Namely an apostolic utopian settlement So-called hitting on city on the hill as sphangenberg called it Where individual free will was sublimated to the demands of the community Where moravians could practice their faith free of outside influence and yet survive by establishing economic relationships with those same non moravian outsiders Within just a few years of the founding of the fabora bethania and salem Of this vision collided have long with the american revolution Which generated massive social changes that by 1820 that would argues meant that the north carolina settlement can become more American than moravian Grant mccalister Exams the famous moravian easter sunrise service That evolved between the late 18th and 19th early early 19th century from a small community gathering To a large public event open to throngs of non moravians so many so many non moravians attended that in fact some years the moravians themselves had to And to simply abandon this as their original vision for it This practice meant that the litany changed from german to english reflecting a growing americanization of the salem congregation He argues that the growing presence of the female boarding school in salem Which drew non moravian students from a broader region was influential in this shift And it also reflected growing racial segregation within the moravian community That african-american worshipers who would have wanted to attend the easter sunrise service were held apart And segregated away from it. Uh, they were in this process of being defined as emotional and physical others this Separation that we began to see in the early 19th century Jake runnaman Traces moravian storekeeper traugat bagas history of the moravian involvement with the american revolution He describes the moravian's early desire to be seen as neutral in what was effectively a violent civil war in in america American revolution There there their uncertainty their helplessness their desperation during this time as the violent conflict swirled around them But baga in his retrospective of the moravian turmoil during these years written some years after the end of the war Described a turning point In the moravian's involvement in the revolution when they found themselves without political support In the revolutionary state government of north carolina Which caused them to make the crucial decision to become involved in politics and accept citizenship in the revolutionary state And he concludes that learning how to pull the levers of power for themselves was part of the process of becoming american larry tice explores the ways in which walcovia absorbed reflected attempted to deflect challenges to their religious Ethos to their influence within their own region He reminds us that walcovia was very much a local settlement in a specific place in north carolina But at the same time the ravian community was an international religious community That interacted with such luminaries as john westley george wittfield george washington and benjamin franklin and he He brings brings out the aggressive spread of the methodist movement throughout the early republic And in the walcovia and central north carolina region itself that spread the methodist movement The threatened the moravians um The famous itinerant preacher lorenzo dowell preached just on the outskirts of walcovia Help staged emotional camp meetings nearby that proved very alluring particularly for younger generations of moravians Some of whom began defecting to the methodists that so they the allure of the emotional appeal of a methodism Proved too hard to resist and so therefore this complicated the moravian's Relationships with friend in the outsiders the strangers with around whom and with whom they lived riddick weber Explores the the evolution of the single the same on the single sisters Choir by the late 18th century. Some sisters began chafing under choir and community regulations communal life Seen to them an intrusion on their individual selfhood. They began demanding the autonomy to choose their own marriage partners And though many single women continued to live in the choir The sisters became as he sees it less a voluntary association association of young and unmarried women banding together for mutual support All of this points toward the unity synod of 1818 within the moravian church More broadly construed that the international unity That synod allowed single members to choose their own spouses And concessions that historians have recognized as a crucial milestone on the road to Americanization And so the question I would ask of this group is did Americanization involve a conscious rejection of that? Which made the moravian's distinctive in zinzen doors and schwangenberg's original vision? Or did it involve tailoring that vision to new realities? In other words, did they still think of themselves as distinctively moravian? Even as they became American And if so, how? Session three was called moravians and their neighbors african-american and american indian relationships Martha hardly provides an overview of african-american Settlers population in in early war cove issue describes the necessity of labor In the building of the moravian settlement turned to enslaved labor But the fear the slavery would corrupt white brothers and sisters And so regulations were designed to limit slavery in salem itself still enslaved people were found in trades craft Agriculture domestic service throughout the settlement Making this an unusual african-german settlement in early america by the 1820s and 1830s Growing pressures from private citizens to relax the regulations reflected Growing privatization with the result that by the 1840s these restrictions were lifted totally And on the eve of the civil war as martha's ongoing work with the hidden town project is revealing There there were there were at least 160 identified people of african descent within within the town of salem making it Substantial substantially large urban african-american population Rowena mcclinton explores the moravian mission among the cherries of spring place, georgia The pressure on the cherries to americanize by accepting christianity capitalism english language represented a kind of cultural fusion Uh, the christianity was absorbed by at least some cherries alongside indigenous beliefs which survived and endured along with Or beneath or within christian forms of worship Some cherries became slaveholders and plantation owners representing their cultural assimilation into what they've received as a growing mainstream of american capitalist In cultural ways They adopted the room constitution based on the u.s constitution In some ways they americanized too successfully to the extent that they represented now a threat To white americans with a result that Their attempt to americanize and to assimilate did not Save them from being forced into the trail of tears as we saw some memorably And the film on on wednesday night Andre minkins followed up on his play that premiered on wednesday searching for wakovia He discussed how meravian the meravian congregational order provided openings for sealed craftsmen such as the enslaved Potter peter oliver to advance and gain his freedom And yet the record also shows a resistance against the meravians particularly during the revolutionary period and so minkins explores how the The record of the meravians points in a number of different directions toward assimilation and self-assimilation of people of african descent and enslaved people but also a breaking way from that That order that integrated racial order a breaking away both by white meravians as well as african americans who attempted to establish their own Sacred space within the new congregation established in 1822 Charles rodinbaugh Discusses an episode in 1775 when a planter named francis fernley or farley moved from antiga to a plantation in north carolina or rather in southern virginia about 50 miles away from from wakovia and he brought with him 100 enslaved africans from antiga Some of them were already quite familiar with the meravians From the meravian mission in antiga which had been started some years earlier Yet the meravians did not curiously attempt to extend their connection to this afro meravian population They did not reach out from salem to try to extend that That that that connection that had been previously established in antiga And rodinbaugh asked why that was he doesn't offer any conclusive Ideas about that but he suggested perhaps that that reflected the a sense of the meravians were on the one hand to So the sword with with maintaining their own equilibrium during this Very fraught period of the merican evolution that perhaps that separated them from any kind of meaningful way to to to reach out It's it's a it's a fascinating question a fascinating episode And in rodinbaugh's research is unveiling this but it but also raises a lot of questions.  Ulrika beat house Discusses the spring lace mission as a site of Cherokee slaveholding and a two tiered meravian mission system there the primary mission system for Cherokees the lesser one for enslaved african-americans She uses this to invoke a broader theoretical discussion based on ideas from the political theorist james scott who conceptualized the idea of the weapons of the weak and and what he called Hidden hidden transcripts To describe the way subordinate groups like enslaved and indigenous people Resist power by withholding their consent to be ruled their hidden transcripts of resistance often unrecorded in conventional documents Raised the question of who writes the stories that get presented as history And they force us to consider the power relations inherent in the writing of history How do we is how do we as historians transcend the silences Created by the very act of archival production. So my question for this group is what does the phrase becoming american? look like from african-american and native american perspectives In so far as we can hear their voices in the record What do they tell us about what the idea of america? and becoming american meant to them The final session session for new insights from the ravian archives In in this session eric elliott archivist of the ravian church and you know selam Described recent events by the ravian archives in Winston-Salem to create databases Of the names of enslaved people in larkovia tracked for use in historical genealogical research This effort has involved a number of people Exploring a number of different kinds of sources the idea is to create a large database that could then Reveal the extent of the african-american presence in early larkovia And could be used then to trace and already has been used in some ways to establish genealogical links to to modern generations and and elliott reminds us of the importance of names of naming names in the age of george floyd and briana Taylor where it's important to establish The sense of of their personhood and not not just not just simply as another statistic of american violence tom mccullough asked When did maravians in america develop a sense of belonging in the u.s? He investigates the increased participation in secular civic Celebrations after the revolution like july 4th Of the embrace of national history Identification with the revolutionary healer heroes like george washington and the marquita lafayette Particularly among younger raven generations They identify with national consciousness Increasingly by the war of 1812 and this rise in national consciousness. He argues spiked by 1826 coinciding with the 50th anniversary of the declaration and so therefore he argues that this increasing Identification with american civic culture Is is another index of americanization among the ravians and finally paul poyker archivist in in In in bevelham ravian archivist in bevelham Describes how 18th century ravian archivists manipulated the archival footprint of the church by censoring and destroying sensitive Material they fought made the maravians Particularly during the zinzendorf era look too radical too strange too out there There's a dialectic between what poyker calls archivalization the conscious or unconscious choice to put something in an archive And maravian society itself They produce and change each other maravian society and maravian record keeping in the archive produce and change each other This raises broader questions of how historical knowledge itself is created and transmitted Broadly broadly speaking my Sense of having having worked in ravian archives now for 30 years and more In heredude and salem in bevelham It is that while while we can We can talk about archival silences and distortions manipulation. Of course, that's generic to any archive But there's something fascinating about ravian archives Yes, they're full of silences But when I go into an archive and I start looking at ravian records I find them raucous places. They're boisterous. They're they're full of people shouting at me from the 18th century Uh yelling at me, you know, look at this listen to this listen to these voices Look at here the ones who aren't here, but here the ones Who are and who are telling us stuff and it's up to us to find out and to interpret what they're telling us and and I love that I I I feel that it's incumbent on us not to be Throne obstacles by the sciences but to find ways to try to transcend them and that that to me is what the unique challenge of this of this Of the ravian archive project is and so therefore I would ask this group Where does archival archivalization? meet americanization in the meridian archive Where does archivalization and need americanization? The conscious choice to create And curate an archive. How does that help us understand the way ravian archivists in the 18th and 19th century? saw perceived And manipulated the changes that were going around them toward americanization And that one friends is all I have to say And so thank you for your patience and I pose these these questions to you and invite you are a reflection Thank you. Thank you so much Thank you John that was An amazing task that we had given you and you did a wonderful job summarizing not only the theme But also the papers and presented some really good questions for the groups to think about We have invited Four representatives from each of these groups and I would now like to give each representative an opportunity to respond to the questions that John asked And we would probably just go in order Of the sessions and so we'll start with session one on art and the representative for that Is david bergstone. So david, would you want to go ahead and Try to offer an answer We can talk about this for a long time. Um, I had some initial thoughts So just you know the john's questions about you know, is it's I think a conscious decision Some of these changes we're seeing as we're looking at the cultural aspects of it I I have to think of the issue that even though we talk about this being the backcountry and the maravians are isolated here They came from a much broader world view and were traveling all over and had all this You know, they were reading contemporary newspapers about the hundred year before discussing that in the voice call So we know even though they were this little group. They were trying to isolate themselves They still had a much I think broader view Of what else was happening around them Internationally, not just simply they're you know immediate neighbors. So I think there's a maybe a slightly different viewpoint that they may have had and you might have found you know Earlier down the road although sort of struck me as I think about that You know, we talked about their neighbors also being English and the irish scotch irish and you know other german communities nearby in gilford county even That the organization, you know is at that time period is also largely religious Which I think is another interesting component to discussing how they were self aware because they were Basically organizing themselves largely by religion at that point. That's something I think we have a harder time thinking How their viewpoint of you know, what they were was Was a nationality as much as it was what the religious, you know, association was I think that's Maybe something that impacts on this as we talk about how the music is adopted or changed and how they're using that And you know that they're organized by religion. So I think there's you know, there's all these You know, it's obviously more complex to discuss That's the thing that struck me too. You know, we know they had local libraries and there's attempts throughout to share that and have you know discussions with Been the community about these other sources And the town was also very distinctive. I think in terms of not being as insular That it didn't attract people for other reasons economic reasons People came to town to buy trade goods or to have a bank to deal with money Cultural issues. They're coming here to hear the music for Burn education. You know, we see that this has sustained itself through generations Even to the president. I mean it's still pointed out a wake forest You know, why is it here? Why did Reynolds come here? School of the arts first arts council in the country was all here in Once the Salem because of largely that Moravian attitude towards culture.  I think going on and their connections that we see through through all You know on our session, especially the culture and architecture Does that address some of John's questions for us? That's great. Is there anyone else from session one who would like to offer any additional comments to David's If not and we can come back to this. I'd like to Ask the representative from the second group Craig Atwood to see if he could Respond to John's question and before responding Craig, would you mind repeating John's question? Uh, should have written John's question down John could repeat it. Yeah, John could you mind repeating the question one more time for us? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Here. Let me let me uh summon it back up. Okay. Um Did uh, okay did Americanization involve a conscious rejection of that which made the Moravian's distinctive in Zinsen Dorps and Spangenberg's original vision or did it involve tailoring that vision to new realities? In other words, did they still think of themselves as distinctively Moravian even as they became American? Yes, it's an excellent question and um, I often tease that when you ask a Moravian a yes or no question, they generally say both Yes and no What we do see in this period that, you know, the conference is studying this Americanization process The Moravians internally were In Europe and America We're turning away from some of the most distinctive features of the Zinsen Dorp vision And that's where I find the figure of Spangenberg to be such a Pivotal figure because he was truly a radical pietist who built, you know, religious communes in North Carolina, Pennsylvania But when you read as a day of a day of fratrum, you only get the barest echoes of Zinsen Dorp and the the original vision When we're looking at the Americanization process itself Moravians continued To have a dual identity and due to this day most Moravians I think your comment upon what what do we mean by being American? Is is really one we should have looked at a little more carefully in the conference because Moravians today still maintain a worldwide unity in which 85 90 percent of Moravians are people of color This frequently Is in conflict with certain American values that are still prevalent today and you can see the church Um continues to struggle with what does it mean to be Moravian and what does it mean to be American? uh for years, uh just to be provocative and a little calib I have described that the the process of Moravians becoming American is seen best in the growth of being more sexist More racist more capitalist more individualist And I think we can trace that throughout the 19th century and so when you know RJ Reynolds built his tobacco company in Winston It was a different kind of Moravian community than we see In 1800 and I think several of the papers have have pointed to that so Those are my initial thoughts on that Thank you, Craig. I thought that was excellent um Okay, let's uh move to the the third question and john. I don't know if you would uh Do Andre Minkin's the favor of repeating your your third question. Yes. Okay My question was What does the phrase becoming American? Look like from african-american and native american perspectives Insofar as we can hear their voices in the record What do they tell us about what the idea of america meant to them? Um, andra, it looks like your your microphone is muted here. Let me right. There you go. All right. Thank you forget that every time but the uh, the records first of all seem to indicate that In describing how african-americans Were were viewed and pictured via the writings. You can see both rebellion and acceptance Those that accepted Even after running away once or twice those who who accepted eventually became What was considered model citizens and and were able to be representatives of the moravian faith and church For the for the enslaved africans overall and then But you had those who were immediately sold or sold as soon as possible if they could not reconcile What the moravian seemed to be deemed to be acceptable behavior um, and then you could see also on the on the hierarchy and that there was a real need to to to want to help the generations coming up behind behind them by allowing them to be quote civilized with with learning how to uh, to to go to school and to learn those things that were deemed um, european taken on a lot of the the The personalities of the european dress of the europeans and To see that that ultimately caused their demise because of of um, seeming seemingly as you mentioned john being too uh, you know, like a threat that uh, that their constitution and that their resolve May turn into something else and plus the the georgians wanted the land on When it when it came to the on the georgian side So there was this fear Also of having seen some of the native americans turn on settlers. Um, at the at the nudging of the french and the and the british trying to uh, to uh, Take over and Stop these these usurpers um, who are you know trying to uh form their own country And so in the middle of all this Cherokee also intertwined with the uh, with the enslaved africans by becoming slave over slave owners themselves and Live in a duality where They did have slaves uh, and aside from from van being one of the uh, harshest slave owners Others would work alongside their slaves Um, and not that there was a you know, I mean that says something but the enslaved africans who would who are You know free because of spirituality maybe still was not free As a human being and the contradictions, you know, we're there and um, and we're huge contradictions and watching um, how someone who would call on The blood of christ to be you know, the sole release of sin and and um, and have someone Live a life that is uh full of peace and joy Watching and listening to that but all but not the living that peace and that joy um could you know really Create a a an economy that allows for some enslaved africans to be uh, totally resistant and others to to give in so um The church is also an indication um based on what we heard yesterday from um, Martha That there were records or people that we discovered underneath the church and And and the stories that still have yet to be told but the fact that we are working hard and the work is being done to preserve some of those, uh, at least Uh, maybe not individual stories, but stories of the people in large Thank you. Andre. That's great Um, okay, so we'll move on to the fourth representative I'll poiker and again john if you would be so kind to repeat your question I can indeed. Okay Well, I'm off of the phrase that that paul introduces us to archivalization. Namely the Archivalization the conscious or unconscious choice to put something in an archive Where does archivalization meet americanization? in the meridian archive in other words How how did how did meridian archivists in their record keeping a reflect or shape? the process of americanization if that's what was going on In the 18th and 19th centuries and how did how do we see that in In in in the record and this this this dichotomy that paul described between Ravian society and ravian record keeping about that society shaped each other How do we see that in the context of americanization? I Well, I think we might want to take the the concept of archives a little wider and include The collections of objects that were created in the 19th century The museums the young men's missionary societies both in salem and in Bethlehem starting to collect objects that were relevant thought relevant to the history For example here in Bethlehem. They preserved the Pulaski banner that was made for general Pulaski and Photographs were made of of women recreating that banner bearing moravian garb And I think that's a very tangible connection between the revolution and and moravian history intentionally created The organ from the brethren's house made by tanberg was preserved and the story That you hear when you see the organ is always that general washington heard the organ play So the objects are preserved and also linked with an american identity The in in in collecting materials books, for example Moravians began to collect a lot of books from the ancient unity Huss, Bohemian brethren, Comenius During the 19th century that aspect of Moravian history became much more important in an intentional Reorientation of the church away from the german link to an older history that was not part of the German identity of the church but transcended that and made the American Moravian church Less German less dependent on an authority in the old world. I I think that that also has to do with modernization americanization a greater sense of independence from the older roots And then a third aspect I see in the historiography how Moravian archivist historians are writing about the history they begin To explain away certain aspects of Moravian history that they don't Understand like the choir system Which was perceived as non-american The communal system very unamerican um to share property with one another And and people stopped understanding the theology of the Moravians The devotion of the blood and wounds of christ And and I see all those are aspects of a changing a community and a changing interpretation of Of the history They did not throw away records. I can tell you that in the 19th century They did not throw away the records anymore, but they added and they stressed in the collection what what was thought to be important Thank you, paul I think that's really interesting that in in a process of becoming american and they actually went even back further in order to find some origination story a narrative that Did not connect them maybe to a culture german culture that Conflicted with their concept of being american and that this older Concept actually allowed them to be american and moravian at the same time Very interesting Yeah, yeah, correct, please I think one thing that is really helpful is to see that this is actually happening with moravians in europe as well It's not simply an americanization process But we see over the course of the 19th century german moravians becoming much more nationalistically german the british province which included ireland is wanting independence away from unity control and In part of what I find really interesting about this post-zenzendorf period Is trying to discern how much discomfort there was with the zenzendorfian ideal Even before he died and just You know and when you read the polemics against the moravians They really focus on some of the issues of this conference, which is you know fear of moravian work with native americans fear moravian work among enslaved people the fear of the communes fear of the gender norms in the moravian church And we see that globally not just in what will be the united states Yeah, absolutely craig and I think it's also important to recognize the 19th century as a period of nationality or the development of national identities There didn't I mean germany didn't even exist As a nation yet until 1871 and so You know that that idea of a supranational pietistic group is potentially easier for a group when they come from a A region that does not have a unified nation. Yeah Very good points. Uh, does anyone else from the Sessions want to offer an answer and if not then what we could do is move directly to the q&a And I think that's a good portion of this The answer is yes Okay, go ahead Larry I'd like to offer a slightly different response on questions and Just just to provoke our fault a little bit I would argue that It wasn't between being Moravians or being americans. I would I would argue that between Germans or american and I I actually think that the the moravians and walkovia Ended up being more german. They're german Characteristic outweigh their moravian characteristic and I would argue to support that There was a transition Uh From being Internationally oriented to being locally oriented.  You've got to deal with issues locally and far as Moravian liturgy And church practices Again, the moravians had to become very practical And turn to preaching As a method of of surviving In in the american environment and Also Using their greatest asset And from their liturgy is a sunrise service which became the most popular attraction from The 18th century down to the present as the way in which Uh other denominations by moravians Uh, and then switching from german styles In terms of architecture and good to what sells locally Uh, and then also the the conundrum about the moravians Adopt practice of slavery That is uh, that's one that just is very difficult to to deal with, uh, uh, conception Because of the the history of moravian Love of people and so on Is that their limited labor supply in walkovia And the moravians did exactly what other People in north carolina did with a limited labor supply They followed the local, uh, practices of adopting slavery And uh, the high free blacks so I would argue that They were extremely Germanic And they became very practical and pragmatic Of being able to live, uh, in this area so that their German character was much stronger than their moravian character Okay, thank you larry. Um, that's uh, really something we need to also go perhaps more deeply into it as we move forward and I would like to shift now because i'm a timekeeper very Germanic characteristic of mine to be very very conscious of time and my co-convenor Professor mac allister is Checking out to prepare for the next session. We decided that we will Buy grand see you soon that we will Go close to 11 30 for questions that come from our audience And then I would like to remind everybody That we also can ask questions, uh, after professor fowl's Presentation so whatever we don't get to we can still do it Towards the end of our morning together and again many many thanks to John for a fantastic summary of our Research and progress for all of you who asked the question will we We will be able to read the papers. Absolutely Our morning colloquia where um part of sharing drafts of our research Creating a common platform to share ideas with each other and we continue this cooperation and collaboration amongst all of us it will become eventually a book is our hope and we will Roll out individual papers through our Moravian studies collaborative Until the book is being published. So stay tuned and stay in touch with us And without further ado, I will move to our questions So here's one that looks um really very very interesting I will read it to you Can you discuss the political process by which vicovia became North Carolina and America So I would like to open the floor to all my colleagues Whoever would like to take that question. Please go ahead How did vicovia become north Carolina? And then the united states early on You know what covia is the name by which the moravian community knows the area Politically it was daub's parish in the colonial government And so immediately it had to have a political overlay to exist to allow the moravians their Decision-making independence within the the colony um Jake ruderman was talking about the the process in a paper he presented this week about uh Being in the room when it happened when you were allowed to uh, perhaps have a little more independence and not join sides And it was a conscious decision to be Accessible to the conversation But to remain neutral during the revolutionary war. So um That was part of our discussion this week and how that And again, perhaps it was a very practical decision But it was something that allowed the moravians to keep their independent identity And yet still be included in the american conversion I could add to that as well that Uh, the effect of the american revolution was basically to abolish daub's parent as a separate entity and and uh All of a sudden, while covia became part of surrey county in north carolina And it was just one of the elements of surrey county. So the the political Uh segmentation that devolved to the county unity in north carolina And if I could add I think uh part of what's important to recognize about daub's parish is that it is both political And religious because it was a parish of the church of england There were only four parishes in colonial north carolina three on the coast And then the daub's parish and this depended very much on the moravians Presence in england and especially the act of parliament in 1749 But it meant that the moravians With their ecumenism Actually had an anglican minister in daub's parish who would Conduct english language services. So from the very founding of wycobia. We have this tension Between wanting to have control of their own political affairs But also having to adapt and work work within the established church of the british empire Yeah, I would like to chime in the um, that's count the county seat of roan Which what kind of it was within roan county that when it was established the solstery was Was a government center and that's where you had to go for any court or other kind of You know official issues daub's parish me was always more of a religious thing to help separate them. So we're not not part of The st. Luke's parish, which was the seated I We are losing you a little bit Okay, david. Thank you. We are lost at least I lost you a little bit. So I don't know whether that's my internet Connection can you all hear me? Can you am I clear? Okay, thank you. Okay Sorry david that maybe some of us lost your answer The questions are rolling in. Thank you so much to our community members Um, okay, so let me see. Here is one from madee right Who I think is a divinity school student at rake forest So let me read madee's question to you I have always thought of my research on the maravians with a dichotomy of radical where those repressed in mind With the nationalization of maravians in america Would you see that as a radical act of creating a unique segment of maravians In one specific place Or a repression of maravian identity in order to fit into this new space I would say that I have also begun to think of this as a both and relationship Rather than as an either or so the operational terms here are radical Versus repressed and I think that harkspek to our question How much maravians had to give up part of their radicalness? In order to fit in And craig already addressed that to to a degree, but maybe somebody else would take this question Okay, jake, please. Yeah I was thinking about paul's. I think this ties in with some of paul poickers observations about time There's How people are For well, how people are are linking objects of american identity within their maravian identity Within within this community how people are remembering experiences and events are clearly changing at different points on the timeline And so george washington hearing like george washington heard the organ Like that doesn't matter when george washington is actually hearing it. It is only important in retrospect It is only important once this other national and patriotic question is being overlaid Um, when I was looking at trago baggies Historical sketch of the revolution. It's penned in 1783 It becomes archivally important. I think because it it In subsequent generations it takes on an american It becomes an american text. It's not an american text in 1783 It's it's so I think this question of radicalism and what does radical what radicalism needs to be put aside I think the question becomes who is putting it aside and at what point so I I I think that the The maravians are most fascinating at their at their at their archival level and I think this this question of americanization I think is a question of Of when and it's a question of memory Thank you, jake. Do we have other presenters who want to Add to jake's comments I wanted to say that What I found interesting is that um There were times when there was a time when that 100,000 Acre track was threatened Um by the general assembly to be taken away from them had had they not proven to be more uh american in their ideology away from the british and then they had high hopes of Of not having to do as much with slavery or Um with uh with some of the things that became um A problem like in a lot of the journals the negro problem and issues with uh with trying to to do more of the Cherokee, but because um The the threat of not being american enough in this area, especially in north carolina kept them from being as radical as they could have been Hmm. Okay. Thank you so to um slightly Different answers to this certainly a conversation that we need to continue I would like to move on to another question. Here's one from tom man And tom asks How did moravian's use scripture to defend that treatment of native americans and slaves? So How did moravian's use scripture to defend that treatment of native americans and slaves slaves Uh, I guess I can start first. Um They didn't really have to use um Scripture from their own doctrine because the rest of the european world had already laid out uh philosophies and science that um that determined that People of color were not just less human beings, but they were different species And so there was uh, there was already that Already doctrine out there Uh in europe before they even embarked upon this imperialism Uh and um kind of uh colonialization of the world So all they had to do was you know, they resisted for a while But all they had to do was tap into what was already out there and apparently permeated every discipline. Um, so It was already there And the cursed children of ham theory is what they used a lot of that and biology was Was invented through this whole survival of the fittest ideology Thank you andre and that was a point you made very eloquently in your play on wednesday night Yeah, so thank you Craig, I would like to call on you because you're a theologian and uh, would you like to build on andre's comment? uh Yes, the um One of the problems with um scripture and especially for um Protestant groups that claim to base their doctrine on scripture Is that both the old and new testaments of the christian canon have statements that are supportive of slavery as a state of affairs from the ancient world Uh, and meravians often took those statements at face value as did most christian groups Catherine gerbner Did a great book recently arguing that white supremacy has its roots in christian supremacy Uh, but uh, when we look at the writings of paul, for instance, paul One of the letters in the canon is paul returning an escaped slave And that was used to support the fugitive eight slave act in america There are statements about slaves obey your masters With the meravians This was combined with What i see in meravian theology, especially after zinzendorf an increasing emphasis on obedience as the greatest christian value And i know this is hard It sounds hard in my ears. It's hard for us to understand meravians viewed themselves as slaves to christ And i think they had difficulty recognizing that chattel slavery is an entirely different thing than the slavery in the bible Than the metaphorical being a slave to christ, etc. And i think what andre was talking about Illustrates how that comes up that enslaved meravians were indeed treated quite differently than free white meravians It was the quakers who are the first christian group to really embrace abolition and emancipation And it's in park because they were not as bound to scripture as their authority as other Protestant groups that the living christ um I really would love to see some research on the relationship of anthony venezia The great quaker abolitionists early abolitionists and the meravians in pennsylvania christopher perleas and some others but mark knoll argues that the debate over slavery Was had a profound impact on american christianity in general Because you can't just simply say the bible says it. I believe it When you confront such an uh an egregious moral evil in the world Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so um if i may um We our um keynote from last night dr. Curtin roberts would add to craig and andrew and after that joff, please Vinell, can you be with us? Can you unmute? Okay, I don't see I don't see that happen. So joff the floor is yours yeah, um I think john and martha could also speak to this but in terms of the acceptance of Slavery and wakovia um the first purchase of an enslaved person they actually turned to the lot too I I guess I would I would add to this is that what I find fascinating is that um the meravians lived and Interpreted themselves within the threshold the crevice between what would seem to be contradictory biblical teachings on the one hand And craig both point out that Yes, there's there's a long tradition here for pro-slavery thought and that had been long in play Long before the meravians ever came into being Um, and so yes, they they followed that they adopted that they're you know, but on the other hand They're saying there's there's there's neither june or greek neither slave nor free which they interpreted to mean that christ's word of Redemption and martyrdom is open to everybody and so how do you how do you do that? How do you accept enslaved people into your community? Um as enslaved people but also as brothers and sisters maybe this these are the contradictions they tried to work in and And as we see this could have this could have gone anywhere it could have gone More radical Anti-slavery direction But it also could have gone to more pro-slavery pro-seg Direction, which is what we know ended up happening And as I wrote uh in my paper, you know frederick douglas made that very clear, you know He he distinguished between a christianity of the land, which is really the christianity of brutal Um brutality and enslavement and the christianity of christ Which is a christianity of liberation abolition and freedom and um with that unfortunately I have to close out our session But as you can see our conference is one step in a long long long conversation This is my vision of a university without borders. We are actively And I hope respectfully engaging with our community We are trying to heal the past to move forward And leave an academy for the young generations to come after us in which we show respect to all so with that With that word from my heart I um end this session those of you who have questions for all of us who are working very hard on being responsible academics, uh, please send your questions to our registrar And um victoria lang will make sure to pass it on to all of us. So thank you so much Join us to our concluding key now. It's so glad you're with us and see you in a few minutes. Auf Wiedersehen


Alrighty, let's watch. This is a longer piece. There's no sound but cool stuff with a cool set Need action there This one has me a bit confused but has a cool feel already that's fairly cool there That's cool, too And then you're writing that the ending is potentially not quite what you're looking for And I agree. It's a bit. It's a bit anti-climactic and just ends So you are in what is this here lay out an early blocking pass It's pretty cool. Not that you can add weird trees and stuff What we kind of need if there were elements here of something that I can kind of like whip by camera Give it of energy just a little bit or right off the bat you're Even before the chopper comes in you're showing some fire Something going on there Because you have something here which seems to be That is at that point hitting fairly close right behind the dragon there Doing stuff. Okay. I think but this as it as it opening is pretty cool. I think what I would do Once we have this here and it gets into that it might be Kind of depends on how far you want to take this enough or you can take this in terms of effects and stuff I Would love for this to have like I said earlier shots Maybe it's even bit lower and comes up so it gets closer closer closer till the very end here Where there's like a bigger kind of it's an explosion behind other bigger snow Gust there and I'm almost imagining this would almost have more smoke. I know this is probably like I'm not doing this I'm just doing animation, but visually I'm imagining just a puff of smoke and stuff rolling down And then it obscures the chopper and then the chopper Comes through and then it would have some turbulence in the in a smoke as it breaks through and I will keep shooting here to Stuff happening here you have it here, but it seems very edgy. That's the main thing I would probably take this dragon and bank it here and not so far because as we continue We're ending fairly middle of the screen and I think if you move everything a bit more screen right You have a turn in the dragon here ish So that exit here is a bit more less vertical, but a bit more diagonal and also here So you have a nice dynamic exit there This coming out this by the same chopper this might go a bit A bit high and lopsided there That you be honest I would have to look at my chopper reference really get the physics of that But I feel like we can stay a bit lower on this arena to edgy was right now We're so high and so left and I think it could be interesting if The path is here of the dragon choppers still kind of staying low. So you have a bit more of this Just the thought but it's cool. Then I was a bit confused I wasn't sure what what this is. Is this just a different angle of the same animation and Then we asked all there are two So right now this is slightly confusing in terms of Where this is coming from and where we are And I wonder If the dragon is high up there this comes in now, it's on the same height I was thinking if there's anything Return and it's and it's a view of the dragon from behind As it's doing something and maybe goes up and as it wipes up and exit screen a bit the chopper here comes in So we understand at least Dragon is flying away from us. So we understand what's back and what's the front And then this is something new coming in from the front That's kind of initial thought. I just wish we could find something where we can Connect these two a bit more Even if it's something where maybe we are a bit further away. We see more of the landscape or maybe we're lower here and we have a Strictly thing, but yeah the dragon flying away from us then more fire That hits things which makes the The dragon turn around and bank and then we have another chopper coming in here So it links the two shots a bit more from here to here Because then once we get to this this is cool. I like this. I like that. We have this the depth of all this different elements here and The landing was so bit rough in terms of what's going on. It was a bit light Right, especially here as it turns with a bit more weight to it But it's a cool idea and I will probably find a way to bring that chopper Maybe a bit higher so that at this point it's up here. So we still have a very clear Separation so we don't lose it too much and then this feels a bit Rough there as it goes sideways and really really fast But as a general idea, I like to shot a lot really cool. You might have to play a little bit with Some depth of field that's tricky with a lens like this I still want enough to be in focus, but I wish that background was Less busy and maybe that's the focus of this would stand out more But you could potentially play a bit with different lighting or there's just kind of like a pool of sunlight coming in and this Happens to be in the shadow to give us a bit more of a silhouette of those objects are the lighter But this is cool too again as it does this I think to me I would go It's it feels like it's going a bit early on and it's massive bank to over correct and control now I wonder if this could be a bit flatter so that that hits Strictly, but then it's gonna cut with the rotors into the thing. I see what you're doing here It's just this once it lands there I feel like the weight will push that chopper down and then we're too low So my thought was that the dragon would be higher For this and then the chopper will be up here. I mean what you can also do is that the chopper comes in more from this angle And the dragon's bit below and is in a way able to Kick it from below which then makes the chopper turn to its side so that there's enough room for the dragon to come in To not be hit by these guys. I Mean one thing you can do what is going on here. It's turning. It could also be something where There might be just enough of a hit through the tail that breaks the chopper bits that the rotors come off Which then of course ruins the shop because it's not It's here actually the chopper that turns I'm just not sure how you're gonna make this work This is why I'm thinking out loud here for those ideas. How can we make this work so that it's not cutting? Cutting the dragon here was at this point. This is not gonna work I do like to shot a lot in terms of the chaos. That's up close. We see this more on the ice pose there I can do stuff like that Could it be something hear me out? This could be totally crazy It might have to lengthen the shot a bit and have this chopper come in a bit slower But it could be a thing of raw fire That burns things and it has let explode that so that the the rotor is not Moving anymore might be broken. Maybe slightly bent So that at this point only that's happening is the backside here to this is turning But this is not anymore It's kind of broken and it's less of a turn but more of a out of control turn drop and we follow down and we See stuff in the background Flying pass and some dreams of debris and smoking. This is more of a free fall down That could be something but I do agree that then at the end it's a bit Anti-climactic where we just kind of ends It could be something again hear me out What if we do something like this where we're falling again? This is all broken the only backside rotor here is is moving and we're falling and it's has its claw on it It's kind of biting into it doing stuff and as it falls imagine the clean frame imagine To framing or not reframing, but this is the chopper Dragon Camera and throughout the shot as the chop and dragon fall The camera starts to go up and starts looking down so that the end if this is your thing is that we see the chopper Get away from us dragon is in the foreground flap flap flap and staying kind in the air as it Let's go and the chopper falls down and At the end explodes as it falls into the ground and maybe the water And it's could be an interesting dynamic shot as the camera goes from this view what you have sideways To just maybe doesn't even have to go up. It just kind of moves over with a with a tilt down since they are falling I hope that makes sense Leave it at that. Let me know some really cool beginnings. There's some really cool stuff in there Let me know your thoughts. I don't go too far into this where you're like, I'm not gonna do this I'm gonna do something else But that could be something for the end to give us a cool view of looking down and see like I'm imagining a top view of the dragon You know covering this side Head wings flapping and the chopper that's slightly obscured by the wing, but as it falls it will fall to the size of You know, maybe this size and tumble smoke comes towards us and Maybe and then like and then it's covering like the might and the power of the dragon It's overpowering the frame and the adversary got very small at the ends to show the power balance I don't know might be reading too much into this, but that is my thought for that Thanks All right There's an email you can sign up you can start whenever you want you can submit whatever you want You get 16 submissions either way and like and subscribe would be awesome. All right. Thank you