Howdy folks, Anthony dream John senior and today founder of 21 studios and the 21 convention today with a special edition of 21 live Interviewing one of our new speakers this year for the 21 convention coming up in Orlando, Florida. This October 11th to the 14th Tickets at the 21 convention org. That's dot org So I have with me Richard Granin Spartan life coach big-time youtuber. He's about 90,000 subscribers. I believe So, yeah, just just over now. Yeah. Yeah, congrats, man. That's awesome. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on Hell, yeah, I've been like we talked about you know before we went live here We've been waiting to talk to each other for a while and I really love your work, man I think you have one of the best channels in YouTube that's focused on my psychology practical psychology things people people need to know Thank you very much. I appreciate that And I'll say too for the guys watching that don't know your work yet Richard's content on YouTube and some of the books he's recommended have been helpful and healing from My relationship experience a couple years ago that you guys probably know about the marrying the deuce of thing you guys see on YouTube so Richard's got great work and Great insight and like I'll tell him to it's entertaining. It's not just like this dry like academic stuff It's like useful and easy to understand So Richard, thanks for coming on man. Super appreciate it No problem at all the the analogy I try and give is I try and be that interesting guy in the pub that you might meet And you think oh, I'm just gonna chat to this guy about nothing and then he actually says something useful Every once in a while, I try and say something You know something of use every every once in a while just to keep people going And so you normally live in Britain, but you're joining us live from Thailand right now, right? That's right I'm usually based in right I travel around a lot but most recently I was based in the UK and I came to Thailand to Well, I like doing my tie. I've been doing my tie since I was a kid Get some sun and I was supposed to be on a working holiday But I think what's like yourself this year has been really busy So it's been more work than holiday so far and I think I'm actually gonna go back to the UK I have to give up the the holiday idea I'm gonna have to go back to the UK and just and just get some work done But before I do that, I'm gonna enjoy a like a week. I'm gonna take a week off this week I'm actually in Kosa Mui in Thailand. Have you been to Thailand? No, I haven't but I have some friends who've been Yeah, it's it's it's it's a beautiful place really really nice worth going to Closest I've been was Bali one time years ago. I'm not gonna get to go. I'm got it about that. Did you enjoy it? Not really. No, it was I mean the coffee was cool. They also really good coffee I even had the the poop coffee.  It's really cool.  I Forget what they call it. It's like an animal. It's I went to the farm to where they do it But I knew somebody's coffee fans. That was pretty cool. What about you from? Florida born and raised Florida redneck Okay, okay So my cousin my cousin went to Bali and he said the same thing like most people tell me oh, it's beautiful And it's amazing and he was the same.  I grew up in yeah in Florida. It's like a tropical paradise So it's beautiful. There's beautiful Florida's really nice and you've got like you've got a lot of that close Haven't you you've got the Dominican is like a two-hour flight away and Cuba's not far It's all handy when I was younger I used to do my family would do more traveling to the Caribbean islands Turks and Caicos Bahamas stuff like that Yeah, it's nice Bali's valiant. I forget what I said about Thailand. You don't need I'll tell you this before we get on to the more Permanent information I've been to Hawaii as well. I spent a week there and that was one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen I think I was actually Hawaii was the island. Yeah That was the recommendation I got and what I was going to do originally was go from Thailand to Japan to Hawaii and then come over for the 21 convention Um, just just to check it out. But with the work commitments, I'm like, I have to give it I've got to got to go back to the UK. So Hawaii was worth a go. Okay. Oh, yeah It's like Florida accepted as mountains and it's a bit cooler and nicer and the people are awesome They apologize profusely for any kind of bad weather like immediately. I was so sorry I'm like, you know, control the weather like it's fine, dude Really wild good excellent coffee too, Jesus very good This is how you rate places in the world by the coffee the coffee standards Oh, yeah, dude, Melbourne, Australia, you know, not uh, I have some criticisms, but the coffee is not one of them Do they poop in their coffee there or I mean not to my knowledge, but who knows So we were we were talking about before the call, uh, well, it's actually let's hit on something Uh, I think very personal that I thought would be pretty cool So you mentioned patricio neal being one of your favorite comedians. He's a huge um, a huge favorite within the manuscript and the red pill community Uh, one of the communities that we focus on and interact with a lot So talk to me a little bit about um, how you found him and what he means to you He died He died in 2011 if I can do this without tearing up I'll have done well There was a time where I couldn't even say his name without without becoming so emotional um, so in in 2011 I was completely can I swear?   I choked it And uh, it forced me to go back into doing door work I was a nightclub security doorman, uh, like in my 20s when I was younger And so I run the successful business I'd made money and I'd done this really good brand And then I got with this girl was destroyed destroyed the whole thing and I'm back to going on the door so fucking depressed And uh, I'm listening to I'm working doing my the what little work I have left during the day with the street fight The street fight secrets was the name of the channel and at night. I'm a nightclub security guard in london working for nine pounds an hour Dreadful period of my life and I start listening to a lot of youtube videos And I was listening to a lot of stand-up comedy To try and just get through the day without killing myself and I was listening to uh, tyler durden And on one of the uh comments on one of his pua videos somebody said oh you should listen to patrice o'neill See me and uh, oh and cook from rst, right? Yes, yeah at the rst guy. Yeah. Yeah Uh, is it are you connected with those guys and and well, you but you're aware you're aware of their stuff Yeah, yeah, we've had a lot of their coaches in the past speak at the conference. Uh, alex, uh, brad brenton Uh natural tim a lot of them. So yeah, I know that guys Okay, that's that's good because I I don't know I I don't know your your community that well like I don't I'm not really too sure what the whole Red pill thing is I know a little bit about migthau the pua stuff I've listened to that stuff in in the background a little bit Um, but anyway, I was I was working one day. I put patrice o'neill on as the black philip show and all I can hear is These new yorkers talking over the top of each other in slang But I broken the machine that I was working on so I was stuck under a desk fixing it And I couldn't escape to turn it off And it was like this weird coincidence that I couldn't escape And so I was there under there for 20 minutes and after the 20 minutes I found myself laughing and then I found myself going holy shit one of these guys the guy with the weird laugh This really silly Laugh, I'm like he's saying things that Are actually really profound and I thought at first maybe he just said one thing and he didn't and then I was like Oh, there's a there's a there's a philosophy here. So I gorged on all the black philip shows and um, I Uh consumed all the material that was out there. I worked with a guy. I didn't work with I I helped a guy called mischief maker who made the documentary about patrice o'neill Which is out I hosted it on my channel because he couldn't host on his because he got infractions for copyright Um, so that's there on the spot life coach channel from where and basically yeah, I just The I absorbed all of his information. I absorbed all of his stand-up He's probably the one of the best stand-up comedians who ever lived and then within five months of discovering him The fucker goes and dies So I was it I was absolutely and and there's a few I've spoken to a few people online who that happened to like they They discovered him literally within eight nine months or a year of him dying. I was absolutely devastated. Um and uh so yeah, I I found myself coming back to his material a lot As I was pulling my life back together And sort of going, you know, what is this what patrice pointed to in a in a funny way a lot of the times was boundary infractions like he would be he could talk about boundary infractions in a way that nobody else could the non explicit Um slow drip effect of somebody just pushing and pushing and pushing at you And then actually pointing that out and being able to be and he would always say, you know be philosophical be rational Don't you know, don't be abusive don't be mean Just have the conversation but try and you know Induce he didn't say it in this way But what I heard was induce a new level of consciousness induce a new way of thinking about what it is that we're doing And you know, he pointed out something which is taboo to say but is true Is that a lot of women are raised to think that manipulative behavior is okay And it's one of these things that's hyper normalized So you end up with a kind of covert abuse or not Sometimes it's not abuse per se, but it's an abusive conversational style and he would say that he would say this is abuse He would laugh and go you're being abusive You're being but you can't hear and see your own abuse of this And that sort of started a whole process of thought for me around the issue of relationships and love that was really profound in a way that no Philosopher no psychologist no speaker. I'd ever Listen to before I'd ever hit me on that level and it really it changed my worldview. So patrice patrice was a big one Yeah, I'll say this about patrice too that the red pill community He's a favorite. He's the favorite comedian as far as I know in that community of men a couple hundred thousand at this point And I would say this is kind of a loose way of interpreting or describing what the red pill movement or community is It's like looking at the truths that patrice built his comedy on And understanding those and putting in formalizing them Right into something you can use rather than just a joke that gets you thinking which is good It's like how do you put this into blog posts books? How do you get men to understand these principles understand what's going on? So, yeah, it's he's a huge favorite. I like bill burr a lot too. Actually, he's a great one I love bill burr. I love bill burr. I mean I I must have uh Again, it's very very similar to patrice. I just would listen to that stuff just to get through the day Just I would just listen to a lot of stand-up comedy and They're both from boston. Who's the other bostonian? There was three bostonian comedians.  I'm nail But anyway, they're similar very Very down to earth very Sort of cynical view of looking at things and I really really loved that really Sound selfie Maybe it is So let's get into uh some more specifics. Uh on your channel, you focus a number of times on actually spotting narcissists and cluster bs essentially dangerous personalities Whether you classify them in a cluster b set or not So another thing you focus on too. They're like a lot of healing from those relationships So if you don't see as much on this much about or quite as much about So for the guys watching who've been through their own toxic relationship whether or not they have a you know Intellectual understanding of it. What can you say to those guys in terms of how your channel can help them? Or what kind of content exactly do you focus on for them? um, I think like if if you've well If you've been through any kind of emotionally abusive relationship, I can help I can help you so I one of the things um The people all people struggle with but men and women struggle with is being able to identify abuse That's why they have terms like gaslighting within narcissism community is it's It's not always Abuse is not always a slap in the face of being told.   It's not always verbal or physical It can be done through meta communication. It can be done through guilt tripping. It can be done through body language It can be done through manipulation of context um environmental abuse atmospheric abuse And so I can help people what I usually do is I help people to identify where that has happened And people get a lot of relief from that because when you're in it You're usually isolated from your friends and family because that's what they do and they will Make you feel like it's just you on your own and part of their game is to Wear away at your confidence and to convince you that you're crazy So then you're constantly stuck in this loop of is it me or is it them? Is it me or is it them? Yeah, and and that that's very tiring and that's the kind of You know at that level it can get dangerous So what I'm doing now is I have I have coaches who work for me and I'm saying to them To monitor when people come on like for a Skype session a video chat like we're talking now Look at their facial expressions. Look at the meta communication and See if it's changing session by session Because the level of despair is so great You see it on the person you can read it. You can hear it in the emails.  They've been believed They've been validated in their experience and we feedback to them and just educate and go, you know Well, when your ex-husband said this to you are you aware that he was doing that? So you would feel this way when your ex-wife said this to you are you aware that she's doing? Oh, I thought she was but I wasn't sure. No, she dude. She definitely was doing it, you know It it lends a lot of relief So people can expect to be heard be validated and then Unlike we started to talk about where I differ from mainstream counseling and psychotherapy which in principle I don't really massively. There's nothing I do. I speak to psychotherapists and counselors all the time and they follow my work In principle, nothing is different. It's the manner in which it's presented And the focus that I have is a little bit different. Yeah, um, and we stay very solutions focused So with the coaching it's like Okay, that sucked We want to help you get on with the rest of your life because if you stay depressed and you stay anxious They went And nobody wants them to win. Yeah, they live right they basically live in red free in your head, right? Exactly exactly that. And so Getting people back focused on solutions getting them back to themselves Getting them back feeling healed feeling comfortable inside their own skin Happy to make their own decisions, you know that kind of thing. That's uh, that's what we do with people So that's what people can expect to see if they go over to the channel there Badass yeah, and everyone should and actually put the link to his channel in the video description underneath this video So anybody wants to go check it out you can do that subscribe Smash the like button on this video and all his videos and all that good jazz Thank you You know speaking of differences you have for the differences that you do have with mainstream kind of psychology and therapy That's not even I don't even know if this is a difference, but it's something you focus on You actually differentiate between malignant narcissism and benign narcissism So that would be like the vicious toxic narcissism you would get with a dark triad per se in a relationship versus someone who's just like fooled themselves and kind of an asshole there's there's um, it's it's it's There's this kind of it's not really my distinction like mainstream Freudian psychoanalytic theory would say there's healthy narcissism Which everybody has you're supposed to love yourself The which but it's not it's not a sliding scale where you go healthy narcissism healthy narcissism Oh, no, I'm a complete asshole and I want to eat people's souls like full-blown NPD narcissistic personality disorder is quite rare and it's a distinct thing.  I'm describing that right. Yeah narcissistic shell. They're they're trapped inside of a narcissistic shell the This is actually sam vatman The world's leading authority on narcissism. It's his description There is a a narcissistic shell is formed. So it's a it's a defense The narcissistic personality disorder is a defense to a hostile childhood traumatic childhood environment And it's the shell Kind of on the inside of the shell is like a mirror in which if I look at myself. I'm beautiful I'm perfect. I'm all powerful and all knowing on the outside of that shell is the reality in which I'm just Some schmuck like everybody else So Everybody who I interact with I can only see through the opaque Shell so all of my perceptions are distorted.  That was really infantile It's quite literally an infantile personality disorder Now they can play grown-ups very well They can act as a grown-up very well because they know how to foster the emotional responses of people around them But when it actually comes down to Real emotional authentic vulnerability Like that vulnerability that you displayed when you did the marry and reduce the video and put that out there Which was very brave They can't do that. They it's it's not it's not within their it's not within their emotional range to even consider that possibility because They don't they they don't really have authentic feelings per se And this is where people get confused. They go, oh, they don't have feelings. They don't have shame They don't have guilt they do but it's ossified. It's twisted and it's been suppressed since childhood So it's not, you know shame can be healthy. Narcissism can be healthy None of their emotional responses are anywhere near healthy. They're all malignant Yeah, this is what I've read when I first started, you know, researching these kinds of ideas after my relationship, uh, that marriage ended Yeah, you discover Sorry packaged a little bit at the door It doesn't matter who breaks in because you're packing. You're fine Yeah, that's true. I'm ready to roll. These are good. These are good FBI rounds. So These are the good FBI rounds.  These are the good ones Hell no, nothing but the best nothing but the best Feed my narcissism with good rat with good ammo I'm sure whoever gets shot would be happy to know that you'd be like those are very expensive rounds Are you having your body right now? Well, the reason I actually buy them uh for my handgun is like if it's good enough to protect law enforcement and help them out It's good enough for me at the end of the day so I actually As a as a brit I had no respect for the importance of rounds until I went to california And I was like I got a shoot.    I feel like we're gonna we're gonna go off on a lot of tangents, but I have no problem, but Let's talk about healing I feel like that's something that's not I mean, I have my own personal experience and going through my relationship and then trying to you know healing from it Trying to heal from it, you know looking back. Am I healing from it? Have I healed from it? How much more is there to go? I'm already way past it It's okay. It's a very it's a very interesting journey in itself and I imagine it's unique to each person to some degree But can you tell us a little bit about what happened with your first? Talks of relationship like that and how it led Sure, um No sweat Never talked about it publicly before should be fine, right? Um I It's kind of it's a little bit.  I was like, wow, that was wow. That was bad. That was so tough I'm basically what it was was a goal who had literally been a band. She was she was a Nobody's gonna figure this out. Nobody who I know will watch this the chinese malaysian Who emigrated to the uk With her family her mother and father and the father left and went back to malaysia when she was four So the father issues are baked in the cake. They left that Yeah, a huge abandonment issues Which is classic for creating borderline personality disorder more so usually uh in the um Typically reported in the in the literature in the peer-reviewed published literature in women more than men Particularly when there's issues with the father and this goal was classic for that You know highly emotionally dysregulated. She drank a lot. She engaged in a lot of promiscuous sex. She took drugs and I looked at that and said oh that looks like wife material because i'm a very I'm a very clever human being who thinks that way. Um, she was also very pretty and very We we worked well in the sex and that was really what the embarrassing part of it is That's what hooked me in and I stayed in a absurdly Childishly abusive relationship just because the sex was good Um, I was 30 and at that time I was like, well, you know, it's it's totally worth it. I'm looking back now and I'm like Young dumb and full of cum And no guidance and no guidance This is the other reason why I love patrice because he would he would talk in terms of guidance And he would talk in terms of sort of saying, you know, he obviously he grew up without a father I have a father, but he is a criminal psychopath who wasn't really there So I related to that lack of guidance. I didn't have a male authority figured say to me hey don't Get with a stripper Who drinks a lot and takes drugs and then try and turn her into Some little housewifey girlfriend because she'll play that game Whilst it's good for her to play it, but it's just not a clever. These are not wise moves No, it's like it's like a theme park dating is what it is. It's like rollercoaster going on It's fun But not a good idea not a good idea And it was like that was very much like a roller coaster ride with it So I I came out of that with a sense of like wow, I've really been Hard done by and there was there was other elements that there was like Her mother came to me in Malaysia as in Thailand black magic is common. It's very daily It's normal to talk about ghosts and spirits and black magic and her mother actually came to me and said My she said in broken English. I am so sorry My daughter has made bomo against you. She made black magic against you. I got it in my head I believed it that made me move to Malaysia. I went to see a sufi master who healed me of the Of the black magic. That's a whole that's a whole other Yeah, yeah whole of the story whole of the story and to this day. I don't know whether to interpret it Literally in the way that they would or from like a Jungian metaphorical Sort of perspective that's that's that's a conversation that we can have one time over a couple of glasses of gin Because it really you really don't know like you just you there's no idea There's there's no way of knowing but very very strange experiences occurred when I was in Malaysia around this whole thing So I thought that was bad.   He doesn't want that. You what do you give him? How do you negotiate? He doesn't want anything. They just want destruction and um That was then like I thought I knew what I was dealing with and I thought I was initiated I was like I've had my baptism of fire.  You don't know Anything I got a little weird way. Hold my beer.  It was awful and I Changed the mean I I I could see myself losing my sanity like I was going crazy. I was I was Being pulled into this alternate reality in which I was warped Well, most cluster bees have what's called crazy making behavior if I'm not mistaken, right? Or there's some that's wrong like that. Yeah, that's right. They literally drive you crazy That because well, there's there's this new term. Well, it's new to me I don't know how long it's been around but I'm seeing it in the narcissism forums and in the online community They're they're talking about reactive abuse And uh, I don't know if it's an official diagnostic term or just one the community has come up with because they do come up with good stuff Reactive abuse is I drive you crazy until you hit me till you scream at me Or whatever and then I say you're crazy. Yep And that's that's what I lived I lived with that on and off for three years and uh, she was very very good at it The thing is with that personality disorder of the cluster bee psychopaths if you're on exporter lines and our cysts They're usually a comb orbit If they're at and Sam Bakman has said this Everything kind of makes sense until you get to the psychopathic end where up is down left is right And the point is there is no point Why are we arguing because because we are there's no we're not we're not arguing to get anywhere We're arguing so I can hear myself screaming because I love to scream and be in in arguments as the more psychopathic World view so yeah, there is this crazy making behavior And if they're good at it it will make you crazy And you know the elephant in the room here you wouldn't have put up with it if you didn't love the goal I put up with it because I was in love. I mean I I you don't People don't stick around for this because it's fun. It's because you think there is something there that is worth salvaging And you get stuck.  Okay, this hand.  I can fix this. I can I've already done six months I've almost like uh, almost like an emotional sunk cost fallacy. I think that's uh, kind of what you're saying The stonk cause fallacy exactly that again, which obviously I'm If I just play one more time it's gonna happen. We have one more fight. We'll figure things out Exactly and and that's you know, that's a point where if If I just had some guidance if I just had somebody say to me Hey, do you know about the stonk cause fallacy?  I'm really good at identifying a bad investment and going, okay That five thousand pounds is gone.  I'm like no no no I can fix this I can make it work. So then I was led down a path of looking at leading away from Mapping what narcissism and psychopathy is which is very well mapped. There's loads of people out there who've mapped the problem So going well, what is it in me? You know, I'm interested now and talking to the clients and going what is it in us that makes us stick around? Why do we think we can fix these people? Why do we think we need to and that's where My healing process goes to is looking at what is it in childhood? Or what is it in your life or what is it in your belief system that makes you think you have to tolerate this just for love Yep Yeah, that's one of the things I'd say looking at your channel has helped me understand not just your work but your work in a combination of a few others but Looking at what led to my relationship with induced in the first place Uh, something that occurred to me right away like why the hell why did this happen? Like let's let's look at try to understand why But I'd say in the past six months. I've started to kind of appreciate more like how fucked up my childhood was it's actually one of the ways you put it was um A catastrophic failure in caregiving Yeah, I think I've started doing it verbatim.  It's not it's not morally righteous to do that So you block a lot of stuff out and you'll tell yourself. Well, they didn't rip my fingernails out They didn't make me sleep outside in the rain. It can't have been that bad Well, I spend a lot of time doing in coaching is what it's saying to people Look when we are babies Your needs are very very high when we're little vulnerable children We need a lot of stuff and if we're not given that stuff it foxes up It leaves us Hungering for that it leaves us thirsting for that the pain of the loss or not receiving the things we need It twists us it makes us engage in coping mechanisms and You know, just a way of trying to accommodate the fact that we're in a lot of pain Because we didn't get what it was that we needed in childhood Or I think you can even kind of I don't know if you agree with this, but you know, shoot it out there I think in a lot of ways it'll set you up for a toxic relationship Independent of the specifics. It's like you're just set up for it in the first place And in my case I was learning about uh, you know how to pick up women and stuff Which was going fine for years until I found the one girl who was particularly more intense and more crazy And had a had a stronger set of the dark triad traits than I'd ever seen up to in my life at that point Or at least knowingly encountered Yeah, I think I think you can There's a there's a couple of things you can end up feeling like love is conflict Love is self-sacrifice love is accepting the tyrannical commands of a complete lunatic While sacrificing all of my own needs Or it might be I feel guilty Because this school is just like my mom my dad left my mom when she was young that it could be some other Thing that you're trying to resolve, but it's usually centered around the theme of Solving this puzzle box of love That goes back to childhood and and in the coaching, you know leading people to point it going Hey, are we going to just give up on that one now? Can we do that and just get on with our lives and they'll go, okay? Okay, because you you can't like you can't resolve these issues in adulthood that go back to childhood. I'm like I don't have a time machine. I'm sorry like we there's nothing that we can do about that And you've already given up 30 years 40 years of your life in low quality living because of stuff in childhood I can give you back the time that you have left But that's all I can do and that that helps people that helps people sort of move forward That's badass Yeah, it's badass and I say that on a personal level too like looking at your content You know looking at your content time time. I can't wait to have you at the convention, man I think you're gonna be a the dark horse No, no no reference to the dark triad, but I'm really looking forward to it I'm really looking forward to getting there and and chatting to the guys there and I want to find out I want to find out more about what they're interested in and what they're mainly focused on and to see You know whilst i'm there Is it do they want me to talk about dealing with? Relationships recovering from relationships like that, you know Do they want me to talk about childhood trauma and and how that imprints on you? Whatever it is that they want I want to be as I want to be as useful as I can be you do have a couple options I'll say those two Uh in the man's sphere in general, but particularly with the red pill most Why don't I don't know if it's most but I suspect it's over half Most guys find the the red pill community from a traumatic event and probably try exiting traumatic relationship A lot of which I I believe are related to cluster B as in personality disorders It's guys who get into those relationships They see feminine behavior amplified to a ridiculous level and it freaks them out to the point that it hurts them Makes them look for answers if they didn't kill themselves or something like that Or shut it shut off and get back into a cycle of finding another girl to fill that role Right Yeah, it's it's and it's it's worth It's worth putting that note in here that like when it comes to narcissism It is no respect to a boundaries.  They're all trained at the same university of demonology It doesn't matter the race. It doesn't matter the age. It doesn't matter the gender Right the zombie witch doctor Exactly zombie witch doctors. So Like they'll all do and say the same stuff But they're all going to use the weapons that are available to them So If it's of advantage to me to use my feminine wiles to use my sexuality To dominate you to drive you crazy to get attention from competitors so that you're feeling insecure That's what i'm going to do similarly for women if it's convenient for me as a male narcissist in a relationship with a woman To dominate you physically through through the threat of violence or stalking or you know, whatever it is That's what they'll use whatever if they're old. They'll use the fact that they're old if they're young They'll use the fact that they're young when you have like Interracial relationships and people dating across cultures They'll use any excuse any excuse.  You hate the essence of men You hate masculinity because now you associate it with like a power game being dominated And I see that in in some of the male clients who who come to me they end up hating women Because they've got this tortured demonic horrifying character caricatured version of femininity thrust at them and and used to to hurt them Of course their view of women is gonna is gonna fucking change and then they'll try and cover that by learning seduction techniques and you know without resolving that internal sort of Anxiety and pain and depression around that's assuming they even find anything like that in the first place I think a lot of guys just don't even go that far They just stay in whatever life they had more or less and you know a new version of it So to speak to some degree And then you don't even have like I at least had the I was very familiar with the poa community in the men's rights community One of when my experience ended And i'm glad I had those resources because it led me to finding people like you It led me to finding books like from you know some of our speakers now jonavaro and other psychologists and stuff Yeah, it's it's it's a it's a big problem actually post emotional abuse The standard the standard response amongst all humans is to self isolate to withdraw into the cave They don't go out as much. They don't go to the gym as much.  It's a horrifying worldview But if we're warned of that and we acknowledge the horror of that then we have a better chance of protecting ourselves So it doesn't happen and we're covering from it as well and Let's talk a bit. We mentioned I heard you mentioned earlier something that I had uh, I've kind of given some thought as well I think you called it hyper normalizing basically abusive behavior and I see I see that as almost today like loosely speaking instagram enables woman to like amplify narcissistic traits To a degree that it previously didn't even have access to and now it's been normalized Whereas 30 years ago it would have been seen as like the beginning of a personality disorder So what do you think about um for men and women both? What do you think about technology? Normalizing what would previously have been like cluster B behavior or at least alluding to it like is that is that something wrong there? Well, that there's there's an age gap between me and you at your uh, 27 29 29 but you still remember I would think taking cameras to be developed at your local drugstore. Oh, yeah, right. Yep. Okay So the technological leap that we've gone through because whenever we're talking about technology always like set the context by saying It's not we haven't gone through 10 years of technological development in the last 10 years. We've gone through 60 Do you know what I mean? Like it's it's this exponential increase and I just don't think we can we can keep up with it What you're saying about that that particular the social media sphere. Yeah, you're rewarded for pure narcissism Um, I was actually listening to somebody talking about social the use of social media I think it was one of the uh rsd guys and I was like that's pure narcissism.   It makes people laugh You want to talk about courage? You want to talk about responsibility?  That's pointless. So all of our values are now replaced with they're inverted And they're replaced with anti values like psychopathy like being cruel like being uh, uh, totally Materialistic to the point of obnoxiousness and highly narcissistic But that isn't to say though that these things aren't uh of value in particular isolated uses Like a lot of businessmen if are known to be have psychopathic traits Uh, or what would be considered antisocial traits, but they never but hopefully they don't accumulate to the point of disorder I think I think like It's it's it's a difficult subject because usually online What happens is you have like perpetrators and victims and victims want to go it's all bad And I've not got to this point yet sort of saying to them like if you know somebody who's highly narcissistic And you have them as an ally or a psychopath as an ally They will give you feedback that is excellent I mean, I I I can't call sam vaknin a friend because he doesn't have friends But I can communicate with him and he'll tell me things about myself that nobody would dare to say But he'll just say it because he's a diagnosed psychopathic narcissist and it's good feedback It's good information. I need to hear it. But nobody else will say it. So yeah, some of these traits are are positive But I do think We are disappearing up our own bum holes a little bit culturally because We can't just you can't just all be Taking pictures of ourselves. I mean in your lifetime you would know That if you took a picture of yourself like when you were 18 Still yeah when you're 18 people would laugh at you.   That's normal behavior for men Even for men, it's not good. It's not it's not shame. That's not looked down on and there is such a thing as Healthy shame and we've lost that so there's no people are shameless now That's not good. High narcissism high levels of entitlement total shamelessness cultural Well, what does that mirror that mirrors a psychopathic outlook? So we're actually moving I would claim beyond Narcissism that's over is a kind of a vanity. Okay, fine. You think you're wonderful, whatever It's when it gets psychopathic. That's where I'm like we should be worried We definitely should be worried about the way people use social media now Definitely, and when you're saying psychopathic in that context, do you mean like sadistic malicious malevolent should like that? Right, well the term the term psychopath Um, I I the way I always explain it to people and some psychologists would disagree with this I look at the history in the context of where the terms come from Um, the the vast majority of work on psychopathy is american And it's it's kind of therefore it should be understood as an american term And it's a term that was used has been used in its study not in its origins of the average american prisoner So it's the average american criminal. So a psychopath is Who popular that there's the prison population. Well, mostly it's metatürk, right? Yeah studies, yeah Absolutely just the studies were all male.  It's absolute bullshit By the way, I wonder if you're aware of this, but I recently launched a free website female psychopath.com And I'm uh, I'm actually collecting authors contributing authors who want to write for it and basically focus on cluster dangerous personalities and women For men to understand So you're walking right at that if you'd like to be an author at some point I'd love to I mean it will It'll drive the it drives feminists not because they'll hear me talking They'll go oh, he agrees with us because he's saying psychiatry is sexist and then I'll be like Ah, you didn't wait for that. It's a one-two. There's a jab and then there's the right You didn't if you go wait for the right cross the right cross is Stop saying that only men are closer to be narcissists and psychopaths Clearly and there is new research coming out all the time. They're lot. They're reviewing Work on female borderlines and they're going well, hang on. What are the traits we look for in psychopaths? What are they in borderlines?  So it does cross over But what I was going to say is when people think of psychopaths don't think of Hannibal Lecter That's what movies have trained us to think of think of the scene in heat Where Robert De Niro says to al Pacino.  It's a loser mindset They they have very low resilience to stress very low impulse control They want what they want with the wild abandon of a tantruming three-year-old and if they don't get it They resort to violence or you know, so when you think of psychopaths think American prisoners, but largely the American prison population of the 60s and 70s That's where our understanding of psychopaths come from totally valid totally a good place to start um, I use the uh american psychiatry associations definitions for all this I use the dsm And but it needs it needs Once you've got that and you go okay, we're talking about a criminal So when I was talking to you about when I watched marrying Medusa for the second time your video That's why I was saying to you.  That's a psychopath when they're breaking legal boundaries just because the boundary exists That's a psychopath.  I mean if i'm gonna date a crazy chick I want the craziest one and I I think I did pretty well with that in florida relatively The best I mean to date to date I have not met knowingly a crazier chick if I did she was so crazy I couldn't even spot it Which at this point I feel more confident not completely confident But a lot more confident in my ability to spot and interact with that's That's rare like an npd is like maybe one or two in a hundred I think we will find when there's more information gathered because there's no information and you can't study them It's not like I can knock on a dark triad store and say hey Can I talk to you about your world view and why you do what you do? But as we do gather more information, we're going to find that the the kinds of people that we're talking about Psychopathy with narcissism plus borderline plus histrionic where they have everything and it's super malignant It will be very rare very very rare most of them will be in prison. They'll they'll already be in jail Yeah, that actually brought it brings up the next point. I wanted to talk to you What are your thoughts on the relation between iq intelligence and these malignant destructive personality traits and disorders? I don't know. I haven't seen any work you have you done in that yet, but I'm assuming you've done something on it Uh, I I don't have the balls. I I want to I want to talk about iq at length Um, you know I sit on the sidelines. It's one of the things I don't love everything the man does but there's one of the things I admire him for is jordan beaterson talking about that because In the world of psychology, it really is The world of academic psychology.  It's a It should really only be seen as a coping mechanism that is so um It's like a matter coping mechanism that encompasses the whole personality And it's in the same spectrum as as CPTSD, which is you held up the the book before For the Pete Walker book. This is a good book It's a complex PTSD is is like normal PTSD but it's where To use to use the shoot the another shooting analogy instead of a sniper round where it's just one event and one series of problems or a singularity it's like Being hit with shotgun blast Tons and tons and tons of little pellets and then you have to go through and try and pick up everywhere Where all these little pellets have done damage and it's it's hard. It's It's really hard. It's notoriously hard to help people through Complex PTSD and that's that's what I've been doing for the last two months and I'm sure I've got fucking prayer hair is as a result of it, but Um, that's that's the end result that that that people can can get from that It's only a response to trauma. So your IQ Largely is what you're born with Maybe training can bring it up or down a few points. Um, whereas the personality disorder That's definitely a an environmental thing in my view Do you believe there's any uh So the more I study the more I've actually leaned in that direction But I I personally still believe that there's got to be well actually I don't know if there's got to be but I suspect strongly that there There are a genetic inheritable things associated with it Uh, what are your thoughts on that kind of already? That's a whole debate, you know It's a whole it's a whole debate and it's it's a fascinating debate. I think the problem with So I'm I'm I'm a I'm a lefty liberal I was trained in a university by post modernists and I was very much leaning in that direction So the idea of biological determinism was entrained into me as being abhorrent and as would be like the root causes of racism Sexism and all of the evils of the world Obviously, I don't think that way anymore, but I do think it's Dangerous to assume That something is genetic just because we feel like it might be so and I should say there is at this point in psychology There's zero evidence for it.   We we can blame that you blame it on genetics. So that's like really like it's yeah Maybe it's random So so much of mental health. I mean like I say you've got on the one hand There's no evidence that it's genetic and there's so much evidence Like the beautiful thing about the peat walker book complex ptsd as it provides a complete Guide to all mental health issues that is purely based on trauma and environments barring A few things like there are psychotic issues there are Possibly bipolar disorder Maybe that has a genetic component or come about as a result of damage to the hormonal system through drug and alcohol abuse But 98% of stuff probably is environmental As a as a coach who's offering a therapeutic environment It's better for me to believe it's environmental because I always have hope I'm very optimistic If you're if you just go well, you're depressed because it runs in your family and it's genetic What are you where do you go from that? So basically even if it's true, it's like what uses this have for the client trying to improve like is it really help them And that's and that's the good point and also even if it's really true in the face of what we are learning about epigenetics Can't we Deactivate it because we talk about genes as though they're singular But they're actually clusters of genes that may affect behavior. Perhaps Can we activate deactivate? Can we can we train ourselves to not? Access that part of ourselves and another part. It's it's I think it's probably it harkens back to another era Where psychologists were really jealous of doctors and they wanted to make Like doctors have their lists of viruses their list of medicines their list of symptoms And they do that we don't have that and what we don't want to admit in psychology Is look this is basically a branch of philosophy where we're doing the best we can but it's not it's not a science It's scientific, but it's not really a science and that's why that that's where I would say If people if people come to me and say, uh, I believe it's genetic I wouldn't be like no, you shouldn't believe that I'd go.  I think that's our ego our narcissism as humans We experience our personalities and our interaction of personalities very intensely.  That's like your genes have evolved in another environment. That's the mafia inside of you They're going you're going to get back with that goal.  It's real I was gonna say earlier in the show that uh, because I almost didn't we were talking about this earlier a little bit But yeah, I think most men underestimate most men and women both underestimate the the severity or the intensity of those chemicals and those experiences pair bonding and all the associated chemical releases Not just from sex, but even physical contact and you know, facial contact with each other and speaking and like All the habits and routines you get into with somebody like that go habitating. It's it's walking intense What you're talking about there. I believe is the future of psychology. I think that's Really understudied and it will be what will be studied in the next 20 30 years over the over the next few decades We're going to look at really appreciating the hormonal effects, which we don't fully understand Like we barely understand our home hormones and we're trying to say oh this gene is a gene responsible for this personality It's like let's deal with what we can test what we know. We can test your hormone levels We can see you know neuro transmitters in urine so we can have an idea of What's going on there and yeah, I think you're right. It's really really underestimated if If the internal thugs if the inner DNA code is going get back with that goal or else And I do believe that that's what happens We have a punishment reward system inside of us and yeah, your own body can make you feel really bad But it might be doing it for good reasons.  We don't even like the same music.  You don't matter the future matters. It's like no no no no Well, I think that's where um, you know, I like Uh the the it's it's kind of a little bit nihilistic, but some of rich Dawkins work where he talks about The idea that we are just Holding sock for the DNA. We don't really matter once we're born You're just a sock. You don't matter and so maybe I don't know. Maybe I go too far. Maybe I go too far with it, but um I think in under those circumstances, I take that as proof that you're your genetic level It's a thuggish primal. It's the lizard brain. It's how do I reproduce and then die? I'd say it doesn't care about anything else Yep Yeah, one of the things that came to mind when you're when we were just talking about a little rant there What are your thoughts on this? If I look back on my own experience with that toxic relationship What you have in that in that situation when I was married to her we're cohabitating for a number of years All that and you know around each other on a daily basis a lot What are your thoughts on sensory overload? Because that's kind of what comes to mind based on what you're talking about with Lechemical releases and pair bonding and all that stuff I mean when you have someone living with you male or female whatever, you know, whatever perspective you're coming from That person is around you all the time. You see them all the time You smell them all the time both explicitly and in ways you're probably not even aware of like with pheromones and stuff Physical contact you hear them their voice all these things You talked to me a little bit about that Yeah, absolutely.    It's just you and them So that sensory overload absolutely intimacy.  You're gonna pick up terms of phrase.    This is one of the many things I disagree with Jordan Peterson on He's way too sexually conservative for me I Really oh, yeah, totally Well, I heard you guys talking about how like it was it's actually probably because of his own experience Like he married young and so much of his his view of women I because I get women coming to me saying stop recommending him.  It's like jordan, they're cool. Yes, they're not very uh narrow Yeah, I think he's only been with his wife Maybe not the many women. So I think given his age, he has a very narrow experience of women I mean, he's been he's been married for a long time obviously, but there's still like a narrowness to it Well, and and there's there's a kind of a narcissism there. He's like, well, this is what I've done with my life And I think you should all do the same. It's like, no, thank you Thanks, jordan, but no, no, thank you.  That's heavy magic.  That's heavy heavy juju and you shouldn't you shouldn't do that lightly Similarly, don't let the relationship accelerate too quickly. Don't live with each other too quickly.  We actually work together out of the house She had a home business as well after a while excluding the prostitution Uh, so yeah, it was I work from home too. I always you know, like I mean you can't see the whole studio But we we should we should definitely talk more because I love that as well working from home together Yeah, that's it's fun, but it's also exactly you're saying it's an excellent way to brainwash somebody you have full access to them Or very consistent access and even if you I mean in my case I'm very introverted So I always kind of like kind of wrote myself off and focused in what the fuck I'm doing But even so if you're out if you're 20 feet from somebody constantly you have a lot of ability to influence them Well, I think I think there's I mean and I don't want to we could go off on a lot of side paths But I'm also introverted people think I'm extroverted But by the classic definition of of young I draw my Energy from being alone and I find being around people exhausting. So I am a class. I'm a classic introvert I think not just in narcissistically abusive relationships, but it's something that introverts needs to be careful of You're going to let that person into your space and you will find that just being alone with her Probably won't be draining. That's a very special relationship. That's exactly what I have It was very it was very bizarre for me because like you I'm an introvert and I do find my energy and being alone I prefer to be alone. Usually that doesn't mean I can't socialize. I've learned how to do that through trial and error and a lot of literally effort and time But at the end of the day, I'm still introvert and I know that at this point that's clear to me for a number of years But you're right. That was one thing that was uh It was very special. I've never seen that before I'd never been allowed someone to get to get that close and then I still feel Still feel energetic and fine with it Unlike normally words draining Well, your your brain's going to go oh, she must be the one I never I never felt so comfortable around somebody before like this. I've never known this level of intimacy before Oops These are all dangerous new boundary breaks that are going to make you go Well, this is really special. She's really and it's you know, I had a friend of mine Who has no psychological training whatsoever pull me to one side and go there's nothing special about this Everything that you think is special about this. You're doing it. You're doing it. She's not bringing it. You're bringing it I was like, no, you don't understand.  Oh, yeah, there's a book I have over here somewhere.  I remember this is here is She bought this book very rapidly after we met it was like meeting an event Meeting an event planning idiots guy.  She picked up parts of noble And she didn't buy it for me. She bought it for herself right I keep it running. This is actually kind of useful but but I did find it unusual the time and I because I had never seen something like that before where a girl was So hyper interested in what I did for work, which to some degree is really really fucking unusual But uh, I never seen a go get that intensely focused on trying to understand what I do Which is not even entirely accurate like I do event planning obviously for the convention and that's really important But it's not I'm not like a a passionate event planner. I just do it because I need to do it But but this this is classic mate because what she's done is she's gone I want to be his perfect partner. What does he do and then it becomes infantile? He does seminar as I will be in seminar master and it's like that's not really what the dude does So it's she she studied you but from an infantile So a perspective and this is where they dropped the ball You know, I've heard weird stories from people of stuff that their ex has said stuff the ex-husband or the ex-wife has said Where they think they're being insightful and pushing the right button and they hit totally the wrong button And it's like who are you even who are you talking about like this is nothing to do with her They're feverishly trying to understand you I think and I think that was a an early later She did obviously didn't stop there it kept going but that was just like first kind of like throwing What they call throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks so it's yeah Understand that she's spiraling in she's spiraling in and then by the answer to be like, ah, this is what he does What also I think was unfortunate in that experience what there was A lot of things now I do check I have checked back on this like on my head like I just did this really work out But the way the company was evolving at the time and even to this day It's like There were roles that needed to fill that she was not only happy to fill but someone needed to do them Someone needed to interview the speakers Which is what she's known for on youtube for the interview series And we didn't really have anyone to do it and I was like, ah, she's volunteering like she's attractive She she seems to be interested in the convention very much So and of course she was playing that role like I just go do it You know, so let's give it a shot.      It's like well The odds are higher than you think There's actually it's a good point You know, I can't think of uh any films or tv shows Recently that have really explored this even though it's an exploding phenomenon even though You know, everybody's People are talking about it a lot more.  It's a fraud. It's a it's a love con No, I mean, I've I've not seen it. I've not seen it represented. It should be where did all the honest skull diggers go, you know Yeah, man That sounds that sounds like that sounds like the opening line for a bill burbett. Where's really honest skull diggers go? Exactly Yep um, so let's talk a little bit about what do you think about uh So a lot of guys watching this channel like literally almost all of them if they're not uh in a relationship or marriage or whatever They're going out and meeting women to some degree once a week once a month five times a week whatever They're constantly approaching women and meeting women on the internet in person what do you think about their uh, their susceptibility susceptibility and uh The stats on them meeting essentially crazy women um For the guys out meeting dozens of women a month or something like that and they're you know, they're they're uh opportunity to get into a toxic relationship I don't know if i'm from the question, right? Does that make sense? No, I I I think I got it Um, I'm in a weird headspace on that one because I felt like I couldn't not meet Narcists like they were everywhere and now I just never do I don't really approach women that much. I have way too much work on at the moment, but when I do Like in the last two years all been really nice people are just I'm in a reality It feels like a shifted quantum reality is awesome.  There's good people, you know, just regular regular folks just Not perfect and sometimes very vain or very narcissistic, which I don't mind but not abusive They're not out trying to trick the world and steal stuff. So I don't want to say it's like a law of attraction thing But I would say if you have unresolved issues inside of you I strongly suspect if we leave the spiritual thing out from a psychological point of view There is a reticular activation system. We are picking up a lot more Information from the environment than we're aware of consciously So maybe if you have unresolved issues, you will find yourself just happening to me a lot more nasty types If you've resolved them, you'll just meet just people They're just trying to trying to make the way through the world. But yeah, they The guys who are out there doing that, um, you've got to be careful You definitely need to be I wouldn't say be paranoid, but be careful. And if you do have unresolved issues Just get them resolved.  You need to process that you need to heal that like if you as a guy If you really don't like women and you have an issue You should be sorting that out before you go out trying to seduce them Yeah, I agree I guess one cause it's yeah, it's like who doesn't have a childhood trauma to it. It feels like it's uh It feels like the term is like overused today to the point that people don't take it seriously Or at least that was my experience. It's like I should have known that I had Get well, I guess I'm older now. I'm almost 30. I look back at my childhood and like I was really fucked up Like this is way not normal And I sort of knew that grown up But I did not appreciate as serious it was until now that i'm older So I guess uh, I don't think a lot of guys in pick up are going to be like that Will come from some sort of traumatic background where they lacked a masculine role model or a mother or both I there's there's no doubt. I mean i've met um Coaches in the pua community One english guy and two american guys And they were they were they're not they're not healthy man. They're not they're not comfortable inside their own skin They're very very agitated Competitive hyper-vigilant One of the guys just looked depressed. I was like this dude's like his Priorities are all wrong like he needs to help Those are the coaches you just see the business managers behind the scenes. It's even worse Yeah, the community I have a long history of being involved with it But I'll tell you right now to track some fucked up people not not going with but Yeah, I've met I've met a lot of crazy motherfuckers in that community It it I mean it makes sense because what it is on the face of it is like it's self selected for People who are coming from a state of lack and people who are coming from a state of Wantingness and feeling left out and feeling hard done by So it's it's it's kind of inevitable that it will be that In some sense, but to your point of Of trauma the fact that you can realize you've had a traumatic childhood is very useful and stands you in good stead To know that so young as well is great because it means you'll be able to protect yourself from certain situations Which is fantastic We want that and you'll also be able to forgive yourself for certain things.  There were things. I needed. I wasn't given that hurt And yeah, a lot of guys are going to have that a lot of people have that The term childhood trauma puts people off My my my brother-in-law is american and he was like you need to call it something else and I was like what what should I call it?  I would say there was a moment where it was very This was sort of explicit It was it was an explicit moment that was in this direction and it's when actually it was right about the time I found the pickup community. It was the first I was uh 16 or 17 I was right about that, you know about that age about a year before I started this company And it occurred to me for the first time in my life that I could And this is sounds so dumb, you know later on but at the at that age it was like Profound that I could go on the internet I could find information And if it was useful and like real basically if it was true I could use it apply it to my life and myself and then my life would get better This simplistic math problem of like finding information Added it in my head and then use it and if it was right my life's gonna get better That fucking clicked for me at that young age and I've never stopped And but that and then that led to things like being honest with myself Or when I'm bullshitting myself trying to figure out when that when that is Well, see the the perspective that that that you've got Is the correct one and it's one that we explicitly teach I have my coaches explicitly teach to clients, which is you're safer Not bullshitting yourself. You're safer if you're honest with yourself And it was one of patrice o'neill's things honesty. Just tell the truth At the very least tell yourself the truth And but as much as you can in the world as long as it doesn't get you killed Tell the truth Just be honest And that Will give you I mean you're going to save yourself A lot of money in potential therapy and coaching you personally does So much you won't need to do there are many sessions because sometimes we have to fight The client for three to four hours trying to wade through their bullshit to get to okay This is actually you're you're sad dude. You're really sad and that no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. It's like People who are fine don't talk this way. They don't act this way and then they'll eventually go. Okay. I am a bit sad Well, good now we've got there, but you won't need that so it's really helpful That's one of the things I would say to the guys watching like If you're gonna come like a lot of good psychology actually is good philosophy applied a good philosophical stance to Have and a good belief to hold is you're always safer telling yourself the truth unadulterated unedited Just as it really is if you're going to be honest At least be honest with yourself Yeah, I'll say this too I don't know if you're familiar with ejectivism the philosophy of ejectivism for my rent but I found that when I was about 20 21 and uh I mean that's something that explicitly focuses on rationality that the good in life comes from siding with reality Essentially reason and reality and focusing on reality including especially with yourself So I found that too at a fairly young age and that's guided my life tremendously since then and I and I even mentioned the speech That's actually one of the things that I think It for the most part it helped it helped protect me from someone who tried to hurt me Obviously not a flawless job, but I think it was very useful as a tool And it came me from sacrificing myself, which she was very much There was actually a point at the end of that relationship where she said, uh You never sacrificed anything for me And I just looked at her death pan. I'm like, yeah, that's right exactly like I told you it was not going to do What did you think I was going to do?   Because they don't because of the philosophy They don't like hearing the word no and they certainly don't like um They don't like any philosophical shift that moves you towards an objective or individualistic point of view because it ruins the codependent And I actually had a very very similar conversation towards the end of my last relationship Um that came out of you know a conversation that I'd had with somebody The conclusion of which led me to a much more objective point of view And when she heard about that conversation She flew into a rage And you're saying about your your ex going red.  I think you'll like a lot. We have uh, rola tamasin Uh, he's a good friend He has a block of the rational male and one of the things he coined is similar to uh, Objectivist ethics rational egoism Essentially, he calls it mpoo short for a mental point of origin And he uses it uh in some ways as a It's something that's very attractive to women. I think across the board when a man puts himself first and takes care of himself and focuses on himself But that's kind of what it reminded me of what you were talking about a minute ago And it is an individualist perspective like that it's it's um So i'm not i'm i'm not as familiar with with uh, the the the whole um, you called it the manosphere before I'm not as familiar as as as I should be and it's might be to Through some advantage because then I won't have my thinking in that space So as an outside was a psych from a psychological point of view, you know Is it a man is attractive if he's putting himself first and I go Yeah, because the inverse would be untrue A man would be very unattractive if he's Um being super submissive if he's supplicating If he goes oh, I really like you so therefore i'm going to give you everything It's a codependency essentially, right? It is codependency and it's something that It's it's um, it's something that men do a lot or I've I've seen in in clients. I've seen in my friends Doing it a lot.  What the what the fact I definitely it's definitely a thing but from if we If you step out of yourself and put yourself in the other person's shoes, which is what empathy is Which is what compassion is if I'm an attractive goal with lots of options and I meet a gentleman and he's So blown away by me.  It's kind of communicating I don't know I'm sat here being a goal and I'm going that's just not sexy. It's not hard. I don't like it It's low value. It kind of it kind of suggests that he doesn't have options that he's not I don't know. There's something very unmasculine about it. But I is an instinct. It's definitely This thing that that men have a tendency to do which is like just give everything away I don't know. I don't have an explanation for why we're doing it. But you're saying He teaches that Rollo teaches that as a way of being more attractive that makes 100 percent sense That's not the total purpose of it.  Like it's beyond it's gonna blow you away like totally confident. It's gonna I mean, we'll I'll just like to speak for itself when you experience it But it's gonna be serious seriously exceed. I think every expectation I'm really looking forward to I'm really looking forward to meeting the guys there and to you know to To hear what people are talking about to help what the concerns are and and be be a part of that conversation and and try and contribute something That's you know, there's something of value Yeah Hey, by the way guys for those of you watching if you want to ask a question on the youtube chat I do have it open. I'm sort of looking through it for some questions. If you guys have any for richard I'm gonna type that as well for you guys We've got a lot of chat.  There's A couple hundred messages looks like When I run these lives, it's usually people just start chatting to each other. They're just Sometimes I mean in this case I was focusing a lot more on you than the audience So I'm not even sure if they realize I was even looking at it, but I do have it open Is there um, is there a forum for the for the 21 convention I could jump on maybe and speak to some of the guys before Before I come over. Yeah, we have a facebook group. It's got about 500 people in it. It's called becoming the ideal man I'll send you an invite on facebook. Yeah That'd be very cool. Thank you the red pill is a red as subreddit as well. You can take a look at but it's I mean, I don't own that. I don't run it We're just, you know, and a lot of the guys that do that's the whole thing you can take a look at It's going to be it's gonna be a lot of fun A lot of fun looking at that one. Could you briefly tell me what red pill is? Yeah, I mean the red so the red pill, uh, it comes from the movie the matrix, obviously That was like his first use that I'm aware of And then the red pill community that I'm talking about is the original post matrix, uh, you know movie and trilogy Internet use of the concept So obviously today everything is a red pill.  This is actually very specific to the man's fear right I would further say that it's a it's an evolution on the pickup community I think a lot of guys like 2000s in the pickup community saw it becoming more feminized and uh, kind of like dumb down So and masculinity was kind of taking a backseat And so yeah, I think the red pill grew out of that in a large sense and it's a more, uh It's a more masculine version of the red pill of the pickup community with a focus on men and masculinity rather than just picking up chicks Right it's broader and deeper That's interesting. That's it. I did there. I did wonder it when I was looking at the The last time I properly looked at the pickup community. I was still living in Malaysia It was about five years ago And that was what I walked away from it feeling like there is an awful lot of focus on women It's men focusing on women and I was like, I wonder what it would be like if men Actually focused on being just being better men. Well what that would be like so it sounds like it's it's it's that Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'll say too though. You've probably heard like migtow. It's kind of like that except Generally the consensus in the red pill is that women are still worth interacting with So a lot of migtows and red pillars will share a lot of the same values and beliefs But we make different conclusions dramatically Migtows in some ways will literally just fuck off and not literally avoid women as much as they can And the red pill that's not the case like the options of what you're gonna do or don't gonna differ But we still interact with women How does how do migtows live without women though? How's that? I mean some of them literally have sex dolls to be honest like there was a whole thing recently on uh I didn't want to get into that too much But it was it caught the red man group by surprise.    I think they have levels too So some of them still I think pick up women or or they bang escorts or what? I mean, it's each guy is going to make his own path and it's a very the migtel community too is very Decentralized even more so than the red pill like I don't I don't know of a single big face physical face Uh personality that's associated with migtel not one. Okay It's very no one wants to be like publicly associated with it Unlike the pickup community which has famous characters like you know Strauss and Eric, you know mystery And even the red pill now has people like ruche and rollo to mossy Okay, yeah, it's very uh background. I should mention too though the red pill though. They would call it the truth about Well, basically what men and women and how we interact So the truth about sexual strategy and how men and women interact overall As opposed to the blue pill which would be like the disney fantasy land stuff Where uh, you just go out and find your soulmate. Everything's going to be fine. The women are angels. They can do no wrong Uh and vice versa for the women That that sounds that sounds healthy to me.  Let's definitely just try or try not to do that Just acknowledge that there are games that are being played acknowledge the manipulations and they're trying to avoid them I could say too that since finding the red pill about two years ago almost exactly that My successful man has gone like way up my ability to to interact and communicate And I haven't spun that into a relationship with family or anything like that as of yet But I feel a lot more confident around women because I actually Before that I was I did pretty well even before you know before medusin all that Just by studying pickup and seduction But I never got the fundamentals of why those things worked Which is what the red pill really focuses on for men in that in that context Like why do women respond to certain certain communications and behaviors?  Do you really want that? from a hot chick from a hot chick you might but Yeah, I suppose so I suppose it's context-specific. It is um, it's a useful exercise When I've been talking to guys, especially younger guys, I will always say to them when it comes to like what's attractive in a man Just think as a guy about what you would think is cool in a guy Like if you think that that behavior would be admirable That's a cool person that you'd want to hang around with that might give you at least the beginning of some coordinates to understand what's going on inside of inside of Gold's head the female mind. We have some questions This one's a bit political, but uh figured I'd ask it So from kung fu jo What do you think about the state of the uk and free speech? I think he was mentioning uh, timie robinson earlier too and all that I don't know if you have thoughts on that or get into that Yeah, well, it's uh, it's dreadful. I mean it's it's dreadful everywhere. It's it's I think people are very aware of it now and one of the one of the little problems I have with the jordan peterson thing It's not a problem. I have with what he's saying. It's I find it frustrating. It's presented as though it's new This is not new everything that jordan peterson is talking about Yeah, you know the author robert anton wilson I don't I don't he's uh, um, he wrote he wrote a bunch of uh, he's like A Like comical but psychological and philosophical books, but he actually wrote a serious book in the early 90s Called the new inquisition where he was talking about exactly this. Um, he I think was on the left Um, but he was complaining about the tendency for Regressive, uh, we didn't have the term social justice warrior back then. I don't think Uh, uh radical leftists Becoming a new inquisition burning books banning scientific research just banning it It was like we can't we can't have this so, um No, it's it's dreadful. Uh, the state of free speech in the uk is dreadful, but it has been For a very long time. I mean the idea you can't politicians don't tell the truth and they don't tell the truth because there is frightened as anybody else would be of Being rubber stamped. What are you? What are you? Nobody?  I think What's it called the oppression olympics? It's like who you know and that that then would lead to you know What's the most useful way to slander somebody essentially? I like that the oppression olympics. That's that but it you know, and In my in my view like if you're running a country, um And I think Teresa may has fallen foul foul of this Angela Merkel definitely has that the and because they They obviously you've got to listen to public opinion But you can't be swayed like some sort of Flower in the wind by whichever way it goes. You've got to stand by your principles and They're very cowardly. They're very they're way too cowardly for me. So yeah, the state of freedom of speech in the uk is dreadful But it has been for a long time Cool. I'll keep an eye out for questions there Yeah, I have one.  Or what would you what would you have told me when I was you know about to give that speech? I was a few months out of that relationship I mean Most likely I probably would have actually said what you've just told me not to do is to say go and speak just about life coach because I can't um, I can't say Go to the online narcissism community Unfortunately, you should be able to connect with people online Get decent advice from people who are educated in the subject But the online narcissism community is completely infused with covert narcissists and inverted narcissists Who spread misinformation and garbage? It's mainly powered by women Who are very very comfortable? Some but not all that's another robert anton wilson term some were now some but not all um who are very very comfy with the hyper normalized idea of spreading explicitly or implicitly the idea that all narcissists and psychopaths are men And if you dare if anybody wants to run the experiment It's being done right now by uh by men on instagram Put up memes and pictures that talk about Uh female narcissistic abuse of men you'll be faced with a torrent Of comments saying well, what about what men do to women? It's like dude when you put up one that says sometimes men abuse women you don't get a load of men going well What about what sometimes women do it to men? Sometimes men do it to women.  Let people tell the truth. Let them speak That's I've got a ton of this through email over since that speech man like it's so many comments All kinds of all kinds of crazy shit. I mean positive stories people telling me how the speech helped them I've got a lot of that Uh, you I mean very probably similar to the kind of stories you get I'd imagine but a lower frequency But also people they got super angry with me that how do you know, how dare I uh, you know Shame her and public that or tell the truth people or women I think men women women women both I would say it's not just one of the other it's both Yeah, I'm sure they'll they'll come at it from different angles. You'll see them come at it for but uh I mean if I have men flat I'll tell me I should have stayed married to her.  There's someone.  Is he just trolling like no this guy actually believes I should have stayed and like work that out Like that's how and that and now that's of course You're gonna have some percentage of population that thinks that way but To see it to see it written well better than most youtube comments like the grammar and stuff. It's like I can't believe people actually it's hard to it's hard to believe functioning adults think that way I think if if somebody I know I can't defend that point of view because it's completely Self-destructively stupid to hold it for your own life, but to invite it.  Yeah, it was super toxic and and I mean hurtful and just gross I wonder I wonder like if she'd stabbed you and then you went on and said this is the story of how my wife stabbed me I wonder If they would have the same problem I mean I think so to be honest like they would still find people I mean and not in an explicit of the case who knows but it's like people will find Women are this protected class and when they commit of you know, various forms of abuse over to covert or whatever People make up excuses at the end of time That's it's horrible I should say and I hope that this brings um, maybe hope To some some of the guys listening. There is a very large very vocal group of Women who follow my work who are very very against That kind of thing of having women as a protected class of having a double standard Their attitude is the same as mine abuses abuse Narcissism knows no gender ethnic age boundaries If somebody's being abusive to another human being you call it out.  Um, they're not they're not happy about it. And nor shouldn't they be? Yeah, yeah, I've met someone like this. I've seen you know comments like this and I met some in person even I've had mothers thank me for doing that talk and things like it that I've done That's good. That's really good. It's really good. It's uh, it's a it's a it's a strange It's a strange period that we're going through. Um, I guess it's the The backswing of the of the pendulum in terms of the of the power dynamic But my god, it swung too far way too far, you know standing up for women great Uh attacking men for being men.  Absolutely.  Um, and I can see the uh irritation frustration and and despair sometimes in in Jordan Peterson when you're being faced with That kind of mentality That is furious with you just for saying no that is furious with you just for you exercising You're right to personally say no because you can choose whatever boundary you want you personally You know enforcing it on me.  I didn't sign up for that. I didn't consent to that Cool boundary breaking motherfuckers I uh, let's see I uh, we have another question. It looks like from a woman sonia. Maybe woman. I don't know uh, sonia xox Uh, how to stop so the question's kind of formed oddly, but it seems to make sense How to stop copia's disassociation Tips for how to get uh to the other side of healing she feels stagnant or stuck Which I imagine that's going to be a lot of people feel like this A lot of people do um, and that's why the question is written poorly because she's a she's a disassociator. So uh, probably what you have sonia is um a freeze response To trauma and that's causing you to disassociate.  So you've learned To dissociate and it was a good strategy back then, but it's not helping you now Um, it's an emotional flashback. So you need to reduce the emotional dysregulation that you're experiencing I have a free course that teaches you how to do exactly that If you sign up to the email list on spot and life coach dot com There is a manual an audio and a video file that teaches you a technique that inside of two weeks or so if you use it every day It'll bring your emotional flashbacks right down and you'll feel more emotionally regulated The more emotionally regulated you are the less you will use dissociation as a means of coping with stress Um, but it does take time especially if this has been a lifelong coping mechanism for you It will take time for you to come back to yourself You actually have a question too. What do you think about uh What do you think about the I don't know how exactly how to describe it? Well do my best When men get out of a relationship like I did and you did and many others have out of especially out of a toxic one Any kind of commentary on what happened is instantly shot down. It's like you're just bitching.  Um You wouldn't do it. You wouldn't you wouldn't do it.  That didn't happen. It doesn't No, see because you have uh, uh, um, at least I don't know you very well, but I know that you at least have the ability to go. Okay This human being is telling me what their reality is.  Oh, that didn't happen.  But all of that it's it's dreadful. It's it's a really brutal like negating somebody's reality negating their emotional experience Is not okay. That's not kind. It's the kind of thing that um That would almost fall under narcissistic abuse, wouldn't it? It is I call it uh What was the term I made up for it? So your primary gas lighting comes from the abuser and then you have secondary gas lighting Which is where your family and friends tell you it didn't happen. Which is exactly what the narcissist wants. Oh, that's matt Yeah, that's I had that I had some I had I had close friends For a year over a decade who were skeptical that she was actually prostitute.  I understand I'm in a traumatic Experience here, but like I'm telling you very simple facts of what happened and you know, people would just ignore you. It's amazing well So there is there's something there that I should come back to there is um just to finish that point that the Tertiary gas lighting which is when you actually go to a therapist or a coach and then they negate it So to come back to your earlier question Would I have told you to go and get therapy out of being like Be careful with the online communities, but there is help there And yes, you should get therapy or coaching But my god, you've got to be careful who you get it with because some therapist will just turn around and tell you Narcissistic personality disorder doesn't exist or you weren't really facing narcissistic abuse now this problem of people saying she wasn't a prostitute when I worked in the security industry from year for for years and I was involved with all kinds of Silly things in in Liverpool in Tenerife and then I worked in New Zealand And I tell people stories from that time and I know when I'm telling them that they think I'm bullshitting They're like he's seen this in a film And this is a bullshit story because nobody lives like this and I I I got to the point where I realized I have to stop telling those stories Unless you're talking somebody who's lived in that life Because if I tell you something that's too far outside of your experience That you nobody's gonna believe it now I didn't question for a second when you said she was a prostitute because well the rational brain goes prostitutes exist Some people must be prostitutes in the same way that Assassins exist gangsters exist drug dealers exist Some people have to do it and they won't look like they do in the movies We've probably all brushed past dreadful human beings at the supermarket as they were buying orange juice.  I thought he trusted me.  It feels like you're trying to relate an experience that they have no reference point for And they did It's just a foreign language like they don't there's no emotional content of them to be like, oh, yeah I went through that too.  We call it two parent privilege I like that. That's really cool Yeah, two parent if they have two parent privilege and you start going well My dad stole money from me.   That's not a thing. That's not even what are you talking about? This is like and they have no idea. I've seen a lot of that yet No idea and then You know, you can't One of the things that we base trusting relationships on is being able to tell each other things And then you can't go there with them, but it matters to you. It's part of your reality But it's not part of theirs Now if they were philosophically humble and philosophically objective, they could cope with that and they'd go, okay Just because I didn't experience it doesn't mean the rest of the world Operates from exactly the same points of reference. I do if they were open and humble they would listen and go Wow, I've never gone through anything like that, but that sounds like it sucked. Yep. Just that Just that that's all you need to hear. You don't need to be told. Oh my god. I know exactly what you mean But you do need to hear. Okay. Well, that sounds dreadful.  Well, this is this is how we learn isn't it? I mean somebody tells you of an experience that you don't know about Rather than shut them down Listen, just encourage them to talk and go. Wow, I don't know anything about That let's please tell me more because I want to learn about parts of the world that I've got no experience of Uh, we had a question that was directed at me from exagger easy Adj are you still on tomorrow? I've been planning my saturdays around rmg. Yes red man group is on tomorrow episode 24 I believe it'll be at 12 p.m. Eastern right on this channel and on twitter as well At red man group 21 and at 21 convention So tune in tomorrow for that. We should probably get you in there at some point richard We have special guests on that So we have like the red man group we've invited like red pill speakers on it In your case, you would be like a special guest, but you'd be uh, I think a good fit at some point I don't know about tomorrow, but we'd do it all the time Oh, I'd love to do it. Yeah, thank you. Actually, we're gonna do uh episode two at some point of understanding dangerous personalities and women We did an episode one a few weeks ago. So you'd probably be a good guest on that one Awesome. Yeah, lovely.  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah I mean one of the things I've noticed since exiting that relationship for better and for worse my ability to exhibit Very abnormal behavior For a productive like, you know, non-malicious purpose Uh, it's a lot higher.  I was younger and women respond to it positively when it's done, right? I think um, you you're going if you're gonna survive and heal Um, you won't be able to survive and heal without your behavioral flexibility, but the ability being stretched Um, that makes sense to me that you would have that neuroplasticity to adapt Um, because it's a horrendous experience. It's it really is torture.     Thank you. It's the uh gladiator thing. Are you not entertained?  You're like How bad could this really be?   Oh, hell. Yeah. I mean, I was actually gonna start kind of wrapping up the show We've been going for well over an hour of this over an hour at this point. I think like an hour and a half Yeah, we can stand private bill and the live stream in a bit Uh once I is everyone, you know, thanks for watching the show live appreciate tuning in to the special edition of 21 live usually it's a whole group We focused today on Richard Granham I think it's very well deserved and I think everyone should go subscribe to his channel The link is uh in the description of this video Put a card up to Top one of these areas in the video And you can also go on youtube and type spartan life coach and it'll pull up his channel He is almost 100,000. Oh, he's actually 98,000. He's killing it So, yeah 98,808 is what i'm seeing here So subscribe to his channel and push him over 100,000 He will be in the 100k club. You will get your nice, uh, youtube button from youtube Is that what that is? Is that the 100k club? Yep Yep, you get a gold one Help me out. Help me out here. Somebody go go subscribe. I want one of those things.   I'm like, yeah, don't worry about it And you get so you get a gold one at a million and you get a diamond encrusted gold one. I think at 10 million Wow, we're we're gonna get there man. This is another 10 years Or less say well, who knows Who knows I think this will Your project is going to really accelerate over the next few years. It's going to excel. It's going to explode You're going to see an exponential growth. I I will predict. Thank you.   It was amazing That's cool. That's cool. I'm really looking forward to it Yep Yes, everyone, uh, go subscribe to his channel meet richard live and myself in orlando florida this october We have about 29 and 30 tickets left at the 21 convention dot org. That's dot org not dot com It's also linked by tickets underneath this video. You'll see it in the description, you know by tickets Everyone thanks to them live and I'll see you tomorrow on the red man group episode 24 Peace and richard. Thank you very much for being on here. Thank you, mate. It's a pleasure