continuation of committee discussion about S-254. I'll lead it off with question. We've heard an awful lot of testimony. And one of the questions, I guess, would be, is there a problem? And then the second question is, if there is one does S-254 help to solve that problem? And my plan is to, after this morning, to take two weeks off and back to it, two weeks from today and see where we're at and perhaps work with Ben on some re-drafts of the bill. I don't know of any bill that we've passed recently that didn't have changes to it. So clearly there's been some good suggestions. For improvement. I guess I will start with that question. Is there a problem? I think there is. I think there is a problem. I don't know how we solve it. I think that the, well, I think that the way that courts currently are interpreting it might be less of a problem than potential courts might interpret. But I think for the most part, what I've heard is that for the most part, not in every case, they are applying it reasonably, but there should be some recourse for victims to be compensated. Well, I guess I'll jump in here. I don't tend to agree there's a problem. We've heard about problems in the federal courts, but this is not something that's going to resolve that particular problem. I've been really uncomfortable with the timing of this bill in the midst of everything else that is going on around us. I've been really low to try to address something in circumstances where we've got so much going on around us. And one of the things that I've got to support the administration on is the optics at a time when we can't find people to get into law enforcement. I'm probably the only one on the screen right now who has actually experienced looking up the barrel of a shotgun held by a police officer. And that's what drove me to law school and it drove me eventually to politics and signing on to the expungement bill. I'm always sympathetic with the idea that people should be entitled to redress their problems with the police. And oddly enough, when I hear witnesses talking about this being a black versus white discussion and systemic racism, I will only say that Mike Schirling when he was chief of police was asked to begin taking data collection on stops by his officers by my Human Rights Commission. And so I am sympathetic with causes but I do not see this as a systemic racism issue at all. Nationally, I'm going to use one example and that is George Floyd. I cannot imagine a more obvious case to talk about when it comes to this, the quest for compensation. I totally disagree with JD as his characterization of this. And I don't know whether he intended that or not but the spin that was put on it was this is an all or nothing situation. And it is definitely not. It is a question of which pocket you are actually attacking in order to try to get compensation. In the case of George Floyd, who is the most obvious example, Derek Chauvin is now in jail. Probably will be for the remainder of his life. I call that with respect to Derek Chauvin, justice. For the family of George Floyd, the Milwaukee city council, I'm sorry, the Minneapolis city council gave that family $27 million as a result of the civil rights violation that took place. I don't know what other success the family could have against Derek Chauvin at this point in time because he has nothing else left to give. But again, we're talking about a federal situation and not a state situation. When I began the practice of law, the Vermont Supreme Court was beginning to spread its wings on the Vermont Constitution and made every attempt it could to demonstrate the distinction between the United States Constitution's parameters and Vermont's Constitution and constantly began siding with Vermont Constitution's desire to broaden the scope of Vermont citizens who were having infractions and or not, that's not the right word. We're having conflicts in various ways with police officers. I cannot for the life of me believe that we need to have a statute in place to dictate to the Vermont Supreme Court what it should be doing in these circumstances. Qualified immunity is not blanket immunity, which is another beef I've had with some of the witnesses we've heard. Qualified immunity was not set up in a vacuum. It was set up to make sure it was a balancing test between what the courts deemed to be appropriate and not with respect to civil rights violations. Our Supreme Court, I have full faith in to resolve any issues that may arise as to somebody unfairly being deprived of compensation as a result of an obvious violation of their civil rights. So I've put all that together and I've come out and having to say I just cannot support this bill. I don't need to pontificate anymore about it, but that's been the position I've been struggling with all along. I will pause to say I've been concerned about some of the testimony we've heard. I just can't countenance people who seem to insult others. And when that happens, I go away after the committee discussion and I find myself very frustrated. But I hope that my position on this does not lead to reactions from some of the witnesses we've heard because I have to frankly say I'm really tired of getting hit from both the right and the left. I try my best to do what I can under circumstances and I guess I will leave it at that and I maybe don't leave it against it, but that's that. Joe, do you? Thank you for your honesty. Mr. Chair. Senator Bruce, go ahead Bill. I'm just wondering Joe, when you say insult other people, do you mean in our hearings that was going on or in email that you're getting? Yeah, I've heard some of our witnesses disparage other witnesses and I just, I'd rather not talk names because I think that's just going to exacerbate the situation. But I felt very uncomfortable when that was happening and all of us deserve to give each other respect whether you're a witness or a committee member. And I think committee members certainly have learned how to do that very well. But I was very uncomfortable with some of the testimony and almost got to the point where I just wanted to turn off my screen and walk away. I hope that answers your question, Phillip. It does. I'll say it doesn't square with my experience of listening to the testimony. There was nothing that I would characterize as insults or, but I suppose it's different people, different perceptions. I'll pick up about where I am. I wouldn't have cosponsored this bill if I didn't believe that there was a problem and I wouldn't have cosponsored the bill if I didn't believe it was a good starting point for a discussion about what kind of bill might fill that need. So after hearing the testimony, that's still basically where I am. I'll just comment on the testimony we had today about insurance risk and risk pools generally. Some of my first experience in politics was as a school board commissioner in Burlington and this was 20 years ago or so. And one thing that struck me was every time we wanted to make a change, a reform in the way things were done, the last thing that we heard was a presentation from our lawyers and our insurance people and their advice was always essentially don't change anything because change produces risk. Risk is no good. Risk is taxpayer money put at risk. And I understand that, but it's a mindset that is, it's not just limiting its stunts reform itself, change itself. So I respect all the professionals who gave their opinion about insurance today, but just to repeat something I said earlier, qualified immunity by definition is limiting the risk artificially for law enforcement agencies, law enforcement officers and municipalities and states. And so they have enjoyed that artificial reduction of risk. So if that reduction of risk is a problem, by definition it means we're gonna have to put a little more risk on those agencies, municipalities and the state itself, but it's in service of justice for victims who've had their constitutional rights and other rights violated. So whatever else we do, I hope we're not guided by exclusively by the warnings of insurance people because I've never heard an insurance professional get behind solid change because that's not where they make their bread and butter. So I am less, certainly less eloquent than either Joe or Phil, but I have, I've done a ton of reading on this issue and research and listened to everything and read everything that's been given to us. I am very uncomfortable. And if I can say that I share the thought that this was not a good time to do it because of the climate that we're in, I share that with Joe. And I know that we've been told the two things that first of all, surveys show that the population really supports law enforcement. And I was sent I think four surveys today and I read them during the break and they're all national surveys and I don't know that saying yes, I support the police is reflected in the actions that communities are taking. And if you look at some of the actions in Burlington and Brattleboro, they are not supportive in general of law enforcement. So I think that those surveys don't convince me that this is a climate that is supportive of law enforcement. And I, so I'm nervous about that. I just, I will throw and I had a conversation. I know that the two of our Capitol Police officers will be retiring within the next year probably. And so they're starting recruitment already and in anticipation of that. And people, what they've heard from people is I'll just reserve my application until I find out what happens with this bill because I'm not gonna come to Vermont if that. So I can't talk about recruitment in general. I can just say that I know that this is already an issue for some places that are recruiting and people have said, I will not come to Vermont if this is passed. The other thing we've heard is that 75% of Vermonters agree that qualified immunity should be repealed. I would say that of that 75%, 80% of them don't even know what qualified immunity is or what the issues are with it because I receive tons of emails from people. And those with whom I have some kind of a relationship I have sent a note back and said, what do you think qualified immunity is and what do you think the issues are with it and why should it, and they don't know for the most part they don't know. So I think that I understand that we need to pay attention to our constituents, but I would posit that most of the constituents do not know what it is and the complexities of it. So I'm not basing any of my decision on 75% of the people supported or I'm trying to figure it out in the best way possible. Thank you. I appreciate all three of you. Senator Nittger, do you have any comment or would you like to withhold from this slide? I do, I just would like to say that I think we've been moving in the right direction with all of the things we've been doing with police situations, training, et cetera. And I'm not sure, I mean those things take time and to have an impact and also one would think that I think this goes too far at this point in terms of allowing some things that we've passed already to get into place. Certainly there are some situations that are terrible. Some of those situations people have been able to sue and get money. I don't think getting money is the only thing of this. I mean, helping victims is what it's really all about. Is the only help for victims getting money? I mean, certainly one of them. But I think a couple of the cases that did get to court and did okay, certainly deserve to and there are others but I don't know that money helps in all of that. But I think really what we're doing is a lot of the stuff to mitigate some of these situations happening. Certainly education and training and just much more awareness of what one should not be doing. So sort of still mulling things over. Yeah, when I started it and marked on this and first signed on to sponsor it like Senator Baruth, I believe there is a problem. I think it's a gap in the access to justice for certain victims. And while it may not be as bad as in Vermont as it is in Tennessee, there's still, in my view, still a problem in the gap. What I also, I'm looking at Colorado's law. I'm looking at what the Supreme Court mean by significant violations as opposed to, I suppose, less significant violations. Our Vermont Supreme Court, I mean, in the Zulu case. So that's an important statement. The legislature may provide the limit of statutory remedy for constitutionally based tort violations as long as the remedy provides meaningful redress for significant violations. Absent legislation provided meaningful remedy for constitutional tort violations. In the term, the scope and limits of sovereign immunity, we conclude that the judge made doctrine does not supersede the right of the people to seek redress from the state for violations of fundamental constitutional rights. I suspect they were talking when they say significant of fundamental constitutional rights. Regarding the idea that I can't tell you how many groups I've heard from that are having a hard time getting workers. I don't think it's limited to police. I think it's a national and statewide huge problem. I don't know if even discussing this legislation is inhibiting maybe for some people. But I think we have to recognize that the pandemic has created a shortage of workers in so many different areas, whether it be a restaurant, CVS farmers, excuse me, Walgreens and Bennington closed at four in the afternoon because they couldn't get anybody to work one day. Somebody called in sick and they didn't have enough workers to even keep the store open. So I don't know how much impact discussing a bill has on recruitment. Maybe it has some. The other thing that I said was I would listen and I have listened. I've been listening to... No, there's not just two sides, but all sides on this issue. And I've tried to better understand where everybody is coming from, but it seems like for individual officers and for everyone, I don't think anyone wants frivolous lawsuits. And to the extent that this might create some frivolous lawsuits, I certainly don't want to be a part of that too. So that's kind of where my feelings are at. I want to continue to look at this issue. Maybe scale back would be one way to get a majority vote. After all, it takes three votes to get a bill out. And I just, you know, goes without saying that I have great respect for people on... People have talked from the Department of Public Safety, from state troopers to local police, local officials. I also have great respect for the ACLU and the folks that have spoken on that, on their side, the people who have come forward, some of them in law enforcement who have suggested that this is a problem. It may not be as widespread, it may not be as much a problem in Vermont, but if we can... Senator Sears, I think you froze. I have people working. Am I alive now? Yeah. There's some people working on the lines out by the house. Hopefully they won't leave any contaminated construction material before the effective date of 166. But I think there might be affecting my internet. Senator Barouf, did you want to comment? I was just going to say, keep Marley inside so she doesn't eat the... So he doesn't eat any contaminants that they might throw away. I don't know what they're doing there. They look like they're working on the house next door. There's two trucks out there. Yeah. I'm not an attorney. And so I don't understand a lot of the differences between common law, case law. I know that that's common law is case law. Case law is common law, I think. And I don't understand tort liability. I'm not an attorney, but I was really compelled by one of the things that Dan Richardson said in terms of the breadth of this bill. And he was talking about tort liability and I'm not... So the two examples that he... And so the Supreme Court talked about a significant violation. And he talked about the two examples. One was the DUI versus the domestic violence and which should the officer go to. And the other one was around the closure of a road or icy conditions. And if the officer made the decision to close a road and somebody couldn't get out because of the closure, would they be able to sue the law enforcement officer for that decision, or conversely that he didn't close the road and somebody was killed on it? And what he said was that if this was... The tort liability was or common law was all of these were included in the bill, that in that case the law enforcement officer would not be able to use his best judgment or qualified immunity. But the public works department employee, if he had made the decision, he would be able to use it because he has qualified immunity. So I'm just really concerned about... And what he talked about was what are the hard decisions? And that might be the same thing that you were pointing out in the Zulu case where they were talking about significant violations as opposed to... But under this bill, the way he presented it is that this would be swept into that. So I... Yeah. Well, I think Ben is here to give us... Help us. ...kind of a lesson. Yeah. Well, and yeah, thank you, Senator Sears. And Senator White, to that point, if I recall correctly about what Mr. Richardson was saying is that there are different analysis for the different types of wrongs, right? So we've talked about the constitutional torts, which Zulu talks about, but he was referring to negligence. And currently, those negligence claims are made against the state under the Vermont Tort Claims Act, which is exempted from this statute. The provisions of that would not apply. And when he was talking about discretionary functions, that's a specific exemption under that law. And so the analysis that would be undertaken is one that's derived from that. So it's kind of... And I know it's confusing because this confuses... It could be lawyers and non-lawyers, but there are different... The different analyses that go on. And so I think in that case, it wouldn't... This bill would not apply to those sort of discretionary functions because these go towards... The discretionary function exemption is something that is afforded to the Vermont Tort Claims Act. It's not a part of this analysis that would happen. And I think what this bill is attempting to do is to create a uniform standard for various violations that are not touched by other statutes. So is that what... Thank you, Ben. Is that on page two? Those lines completely confuse me because I don't have a clue what they mean. And that's what you're... So what it says is this bill wouldn't be subject to common law doctrines of immunity. What does that even mean? Common law... And I think what I've taken from this is that this is an area to clarify as far as... And I think a simple change to... These do not apply to actions under the section would maybe be a way to change it. But the common law doctrines of immunity intent behind that was absolute immunity, qualified immunity. And I know today there was discussion about the good faith affirmative defense and that being an immunity. Now, there may be different trains of thought on this, but an affirmative defense is not an immunity. It can include an immunity like qualified immunity. I know it's confusing. But specifically talking about chapter 189 of this title, so subdivision three there, that's the Vermont Tort Claims Act. So this section is saying that it's not subject. So the provisions of the Vermont Tort Claims Act does not apply to actions brought under this. And the discretionary function exception is part of chapter 189. So what does one and two mean? So one and two means says subdivision one is an attempt to say that absolute immunity and qualified immunity are not defenses to liability in this. So the action brought under this section, those cannot be used. And then the statutory immunities and limitations and liability are what we had talked about before about, and it could be overly inclusive as well as far as the Vermont Tort Claims Act, the municipal equivalent, but also the provisions about insurance waivers of immunity because there are statutes that say qualified immunity is waived to the extent that you've purchased an insurance policy. So that's designed to cover those statutes as well. And just to say that the liability standards that we create here, the damages standards that we create under this law are what's to apply when an action is brought. So number one says that absolute immunity or qualified immunity cannot be used as a defense. Correct. Okay, so we are eliminating absolute immunity and qualified immunity for everyone, not just for law enforcement officers. No, it would just be for law enforcement officers because that's who the action could be brought against. And admittedly, it would probably be a rare occurrence where absolute immunity would be used as a defense because most law enforcement officers are not in the position of like a commissioner or a legislator. And it would only be if they were acting pursuant to their authority as a law enforcement officer. So I guess I don't understand the construct of C because it says that one and two don't, can't be used, but three and four are not even affected by this bill. So I don't under that. Well, it means that they can't be used in this as well. They're separate and apart. And that's the intent. And again, I think that as I go back and work through my markup, this is an area to clarify. And that's something that I will make clear. Okay. All right. Thanks. I do apologize for being so dense, but I just... I don't think you're done. I think it's very, the testimony from both sides has left a lot of confusion in our minds. And frankly, I'm not sure if I don't think it was by design, but... And Ben, I have a question for you. Yes, Senator Sears. It's an icy night, a car overturns. The police come to investigate and the driver of the vehicle is a little unsteady. So they decide he might be driving while under the influence. So they take him to a police station and try to find a drug recognition expert on this icy night. But one is not available in the immediate area. So they have to wait to get one from somewhere else. And that person, you know, it's about an hour later. And the drug recognition expert comes in and says there's no evidence of drug driving. But evidently, there was evidence of a concussion. And nobody treated that. Where would that stand with this qualified immunity? So Senator Sears, are you asking if they continued to hold this person because they had a concussion? Is that sort of... Well, they continued to believe he was intoxicated. Well, the short answer is... I mean, I don't know exactly in that situation because I guess I'm struggling to figure out exactly what you're asking as far as... Well, would this be a case where qualified immunity under current law would come in? And this was an actual case. And what he was really seeking was an apology from the officers. Well, I suppose, I mean, the effect of this is to essentially put law enforcement officers in the shoes of everyday people as far as what the liability that they're exposed to. And so if there was a claim that this individual had against the police officer, you know, other for negligence, that he had a duty to this person during the scope of... While he was working as a law enforcement officer and somehow breached that duty and caused him harm, theoretically, yes, this person could bring an action against the law enforcement officer. And he would not be able to use qualified immunity in that situation. If this passed. Correct. But if it... Yeah. Yeah. Other comments, questions? So one of the... Yeah, go ahead, Albus. One of the other recommendations to, you know, to do something to perhaps mitigate something happening in the future was to do like Jeanette's committee is looking at and look at licensing of police officers. We already do that. And there is under the new criminal justice council, just for your information, there is a new subcommittee made up of professional, subcommittee of professional regulation and discipline. And it is co-chaired by Sheriff Mark Anderson and Susanna Davis. They co-chair the committee and they are working really hard to make sure that in this environment, we know that it's hard to... It took them a while to get organized, but it took them a while to get organized. And so, I think that's why we have a new criminal justice council, because we added like 15 members, but they are working on that. And so there is that work going on. And they are currently not... Licensed certified under the level one, level two and level three. And so, yeah. That is happening. Anything else? All right. Why don't we meet here tomorrow morning at 9 a.m.?


Next up, we have James Buck, who, like I said yesterday, is the godfather of all things you rug, and we wouldn't be here without him, and we're happy to have him back. Thanks, James. So I wanted to start with a little exercise here. A little exercise.  Just relax it. In fact, put a hand on your cheek to make sure that you're not moving any muscles on the left side of your face.  Like clear up, get your cheeks into it, your eye, like you're really happy.   You also look kind of goofy. Hold that thought. I want to take a picture. Just kidding. So what was that all about? Okay, well, January 19th was an interesting day for me. For a few days prior to that, everything I ate tasted like wintergreen. I like wintergreen, so it wasn't that big of a deal, but it was just weird. Like I would scrub the heck out of my tongue with my toothbrush, thinking fungus, like, what's going on? It was weird, but nothing fixed it, no mouthwash. I was a little worried, a little concerned about it, but I didn't freak out too much. I was like, it's just a weird taste will go away. But on January 19th, I woke up, and as I was going into the bathroom to shave and brush my teeth and all that stuff, I noticed that it was like I'd been to the dentist. The left side of my face, it wasn't numb, but it was slow to respond. Like I'd tried to smile, and this side wouldn't go up as far as the other side, and I started to freak out a little bit. I was thinking tumor, stroke, what's going on? It totally freaked me out, but it was really the onset to the weirdest thing that has happened to me since puberty. It freaked me out at first, but as soon as I could, I got into the doctor and I told him the symptoms that I wasn't numb, I just couldn't move it as much, and he's like, oh, Bill's palsy. Who here has ever had Bill's palsy? Anyone? Okay, so this will be news to some of you. Oh, brother, reach it. How many of you know someone who has had Bill's palsy? A few others. Okay. It is the weirdest thing. It was news to me, but apparently there's this thing called the seventh cranial nerve, and I'm not a doctor, so if anyone in here has, like, anatomy background, you're totally going to school me on this, but seventh cranial nerve apparently comes from behind your head, comes around on each side of your face, goes through your inner ear, and comes out, spread across your face to control facial expression. It controls blinking your eye, or not just blinking, closing your eye. You can open your eye fine without it, but closing your eye uses the seventh cranial nerve.  Now, weird things happen when that nerve malfunctions. No one's really sure how it works, like what causes it. I think there's a lot of different things that can, but Bill's palsy happens when something pinches or causes trauma to that nerve.  But the doctor's like, yeah, don't worry about it, it'll go away. Here's, you know, it gave me a prescription for some medication to take to help speed recovery. But he's like, basically, you just got to wait it out. It'll get worse, and then it'll get better. And sure enough, after a few days, it got worse to where one side of my face I could smile just fine, the other side I couldn't, and together you just look lopsided. Like seriously, I would put my hand on my left cheek, and I would strain for all it was worth just to get any movement out of it, just to smile a little bit, and there was nothing. Completely dead. Let me get my notes in order here, I should have done that first. So yeah, within a few days, my face was completely paralyzed on that side. And that's amazing the things you can't do when your face is half paralyzed. You can't chew very well. Like you eat, and stuff like drobbles out of your mouth. You feel like you've been to the dentist. It's the most awkward thing.  You can't blink that eye.  So I had to carry a tissue with me to close my eye so that it wouldn't dry out. But on top of that, like it watered constantly. It was annoying as heck. And at night I had to tape that eye shut so that it wouldn't dry out. And if you've never slept with your eye taped shut, you're missing out. It's a lot less fun than it sounds. Can't wink. Can't chew. Can't roll my tongue. I'm a whistler. How many of you like to whistle? Like I whistle all the time and it probably drives people nuts. I couldn't whistle. Like this side of my mouth was just so I would blow and nothing would happen.  Try it.  Or this is fun, right? You can't do it. I tried to make the most of it. I tried to have fun with it. I tried to laugh with my kids and joke about it. My dad, who's living with us right now, when I came home from the doctor and told him about it, he said, oh, I'm sorry, James, I'm really sorry about your face. And that struck me as so hilarious. I laughed and laughed. I said, dad, I'm going to use that as a new greeting. I'm going to say, hey, Joe, nice to meet you. Sorry about your face. My kids, you know, they thought it was the weirdest thing. Especially because you can't close your eye and your eye's a little open. You just see the whites. It can be kind of freaky. So I tried to make it fun. I would call it my super face, except, of course, I can't say P's and F's. So it came out super face. And my kids still laugh about that, even though I'm fully recovered. They still say, say super face, dad. But when you can only smile with half your face, it feels fake. Even though I was trying to smile with both sides, it felt like a fake smile. And that, like, not being able to really smile that, that does stuff to your mind. Like, I really struggled with depression. And in my mind, it feels like this period lasted forever. But in reality, the 19th was when I was diagnosed. Within a few days, my left side of my face was completely paralyzed. But by the 30th, I was able to twitch a muscle. And it was totally like that scene in Princess Bride, where the man in black has been mostly dead all day. And Fezig and Inigo Montoya are up on the battlement of the castle, spying it out. And they're trying to get Wesley to move to look and see what's going on. And Wesley, all he can do is twitch his head a little bit. And Fezig the Giant says, that's wonderful.  That's how I felt looking in the mirror. My mouth would twitch just a tiny bit. And I'd be like, yes, I twitched my mouth. By the fourth, I could kind of whistle again. That was huge. That was a huge moral victory. By the seventh, I had about 50% functionality back. And by the 14th, good as new. So the whole thing was almost four weeks. But it felt like an eternity because psychologically, it was messing with me. Not being able to smile or whistle or do the things that I like to do. Oh, the other thing I would try to do is puff my cheek, just puff them out. But because I couldn't close that side of my mouth very well, it would always leak out. My kids thought that was hilarious too. But every little thing was just bizarre. So what's the deal with this story? Let's rewind a few years. Let's look back in August of 2005, I released a tool called Switch Tower. How many of you remember Switch Tower? A few hands. It was, within a few months, it had to be renamed Capistrano because of trademark issues. How many of you know Capistrano? A few more. So this is ancient history. This is when it first came out. And it was a lot of fun to work on. I had so much fun. I loved the community that built up around it. I loved the technical challenges. I loved the 37 Signals, Dow Base Camp, that they gave me this tool. I wrote it for them. They paid me to write it. But then they gave it to me to be mine. Like, I could do what I want with it. It was wonderful. By 2008, I was working with Mark Embriaco. He was the sysadmin at 37 Signals. And we had an amazing opportunity to teach a series of seminars about Capistrano. It was really exciting. We started planning it out. We signed the papers. We made plans. First one was going to be somewhere. We were going to fly out there and teach it.  Makes sense, we would say, oh, we got this thing going on. And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He pointed out that this was a potential conflict of interest, so that we could be spending more time on this than working. And he was well within his rights to do that. Like, he was right. We should have contacted him first and made sure this was all good. But in my mind, this was my baby. This was going to be something that I was going to do on the side. And it was going to be awesome. And we're going to have so much fun. David and Jason both said, you can do the first one because you signed a contract, but after that, don't. And I just remember it was like a punch in the gut emotionally. I did not see that coming. This was a trauma point in my life where suddenly this thing that I had loved and nurtured and cared so much about, it's like the rug was pulled out from under me. And I don't blame Jason and David at all. I want to make that clear. They were looking out for their company, doing what they felt was right. And in retrospect, I agree with them. They did the right thing. I had the wrong expectations. And it totally rocked my world. More than it should have in retrospect, but it did. From that point on, I lost so much love for working for Capistrano. Like everything changed. Suddenly, this was something I had to work on instead of something I wanted to work on. And all the joy got sucked right out of it. Every feature request, every bug report, was suddenly an imposition. And I hated it and I resented it. Within just a few months, I left Capistrano. I just walked away. I didn't try to find someone to take over. I just made a blog post and said, I'm done. If anyone wants to take it over, contact me, and I'll give you the keys to the kingdom. Unfortunately, a good group of people did take it over. And it's thrived. But I walked away from Capistrano. I walked away from my net SSH library and the family of libraries around that. I walked away from my SQLite 3 bindings for Ruby. I walked away from all of the open source things that I'd worked on because I no longer loved them. And this was kind of the beginning of a downhill slope for me. In 2010, 11, I wrote a series of blog posts about mazes, which kind of took me out of my slump a little bit. But within just a few months, September of 2011, I shut down my blog. I left it up, but I basically exported it as static HTML and just left it. I was done. 2012, I stopped tweeting. I said, I'm done. I'm not going to tweet anymore. 2013, I recognized that something was wrong and I wanted to see a psychiatrist. I talked with Jason and David and said, what can I do? Like, if I wanted to see a psychiatrist, do you need to arrange this? How does this work? And they said, just take care of it. But there was no one in my area that specialized in what I needed. I didn't feel like anyone I contacted was going to be right for me. So I kind of self-medicated. I wrote. I write when I'm disturbed. And so I wrote a series of little stories for my eyes only where I, first person, was talking with a psychiatrist. And as ridiculous as that sounds, it was remarkably therapeutic. And I learned a lot about what I was feeling and why I was feeling it. But it wasn't enough and it was too late. And about a year later, I quit my job. My dream job, the job that I love and loved more than any other job I have ever had. It was hard. It was really hard to leave base camp. It was and is, I'm sure, Eileen, I'm sure it's still an amazing place. But it was incredible. And I definitely didn't leave because I was dissatisfied with base camp. I left because I couldn't do it. Here's an example. There's a bug in this code. Can you see it? It's an easy bug. Raise your hand when you see it. Right? In area, radius times radius plus pi. Not a difficult bug to find. But where I was, if I were to look at this code, I would see a wall of text and I would be immediately exhausted and I would say, let me just check my email first. Let me just go read a news article first. Let me just spend 15 minutes playing Kerbal Space Program and then I'll get on it. And of course, anyone who's played KSP knows you can't play just 15 minutes of Kerbal Space Program. So I played a lot of KSP during this period, more than I care to admit. But the fact of the matter is I was done. I couldn't do it. My productivity was maybe 10% of what it was when I started at base camp. And it wasn't fair to Jason and David to pay me a salary for something I wasn't doing. And so I had to quit. And it was terrifying and it was scary, but Jason and David were super supportive, incredibly supportive. And they listened, they made it possible for me to do what I needed to do. But it was like being emotionally paralyzed. It was like being intellectually paralyzed. This palsy that I had brought this all back to me and gave me a framework in which to think about it because burnout is a paralysis. You are suddenly unable to do what you've always done, what you've loved to do. I couldn't be motivated to work. I tried lots of things. I tried Pomodoro. I tried tempting myself with like Cadbury cream eggs. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm addicted to those things. I tried putting the carrot out in front and saying just work 15 minutes and then you can have this carrot. It didn't work. Nothing worked. I could not be motivated. No matter how much I stared in that mirror, I could not make the muscles twitch at all. I was absolutely done. And it was terrifying. I mean, the thing, this was an exciting time to be at Basecamp too. This was right around the time of the release of the new Basecamp, Basecamp 2 at the time. Total rewrite, release this. This was around the time they renamed Basecamp. They renamed the company to Basecamp. So from 37 signals, this was when they got rid of high rise. This was when they shut down, stopped accepting signups for like backpack and campfire. There were huge changes, so much to be excited about and I just couldn't be excited about it at all. Now in retrospect, these are, in reading the research preparing for this, there's a lot of warning signs of burnout. If you've experienced one or two of these, it's probably not a big deal, but I was able to put a check mark next to most of these. Impaired concentration, heck yeah. Isolation, obviously working from home, it's easy to feel isolated, but Basecamp does a lot to help mitigate that with the online chats and the online community, but still, when you're burnt out, you pull away. You isolate yourself. A lack of productivity, depression, anger, anxiety, loss of enjoyment, increased illness, all of these things. I was feeling almost every single one of them. So what do you do about it? Well, first we need to look at the cause. There's a psychologist named Christine Mazlik who came up with these six mismatches that she says can lead to burnout. People often think, oh, I've been working so hard, I'm gonna get burned out too much time. And that is indeed one of the mismatches, work overload. You need to be aware of that, but it is hardly the only way to burn out. I was not being overworked at Basecamp when I burned out. I was not being given more work than I could handle. What I felt, I think, was lack of control. And this was caused by my own perceptions when the rug was pulled out from under me on the Capistrano project. I suddenly realized I didn't have as much control over this as I thought I did, which changed my perception of the whole project, which changed my desire to work on it, which led to this downward spiral. Now there's probably lots of other factors involved, but I think for me that was one of them. And if you are feeling a lack of control in your work, you might be at risk of burn out yourself, something to keep in mind. Insufficient reward, now reward can be salary, but it can be a lot of other things too. There's a lot of benefits involved. This most definitely was not my case at Basecamp. Basecamp, like I said, is an amazing place to work. You've got all kinds of incredible benefits. They gave me, every three years, you get a one month sabbatical paid. You can just go do whatever you want for one month and come back and you'll get paid for a month. When I was suffering from burn out, Jason and David gave me an extra sabbatical to work with it. Like it was amazing. There was definitely not insufficient reward in my case, but for some people that might be it. Maybe you're feeling like your work is not being compensated sufficiently and that can lead to burnout. Breakdown of community. I love my coworkers at Basecamp. That was an amazing community. This was not an issue for me, but it can be for some people. Do you feel like you're isolated? You're working in separate things and there's no communication. Do you feel like people don't care what you're working on? Do you feel left out? Absence of fairness. Again, this is perceived fairness. This doesn't mean that your boss is really not being fair, but if you perceive that things aren't being fair, that can lead to burnout. You feel like someone is being rewarded more than they deserve or that you aren't being recognized where someone else is. That can really cause that trauma to your desire to work. And the last one is conflicting values. This is a tough one for me to talk about because I love Basecamp and I love Jason and David. They are some of the most generous, amazing bosses I have ever had, but for me, I don't swear. I don't like being around a lot of profanity. It bothers me and that's the way I am. I'm not passing judgment, but this is the way I am.  In fact, at Basecamp when I was there, it really felt sometimes like there was a culture of profanity that they rewarded it by recognizing it and glorifying it. And I'm not saying that's a terrible thing, don't get me wrong, but it bothered me. And in retrospect, thinking about these things, I think that might have been another factor in my burnout was feeling like there was these conflicting values. I wanted it one way and the company wanted it another way and ultimately it caused that paralysis for me. And in your case, maybe your company is going a direction that you disagree with and you feel like they're not listening. There's an absence of fairness, a breakdown of community, these conflicting values. These can all come together to really affect your productivity. So the good news though is that you can overcome it. Me, I feel like I have overcome my burnout. I've been writing code for fun for a year now. I've been productive, doing productive work for clients. I feel like I'm better. I've overcome this. I'm no longer affected by burnout, but I'm a different person than I was. I'm not the prolific programmer that I used to be. I used to write code constantly, but part of this burnout has taught me that I have, there's more that I like in life. And so I program less and I do other things more, which I think is a healthy thing. But how do you overcome burnout? Well, there is a path to reigniting the flame. There's several things that you can do. If you feel like you are burned out, please pay attention and really seriously consider some of these things. Even if you aren't burned out, these steps can help you to stave off burnout. First thing, the big one is identify why. Why are you feeling burned out? There's a lot of things you can do. How many of you have heard of the five whys? That's where you ask why and you get an answer. And then you ask why again and you get another answer. Why again? You go five times all the way down until you find a root cause. In my case, I might have said why am I feeling burned out? Well, I just, I don't like working. Well, why don't you like to work? Well, it's not enjoyable to me anymore. Well, why isn't it enjoyable to you? Well, it used to be, but then something happened. Well, why? You just keep going down until you find that root cause. And it's not gonna be a sit down and make a list in five minutes. This is gonna be a ponder it for several days or weeks until you really figure out your feelings. But this is an important part to overcoming burnout is identifying what happened. Getting back to basics. This is an important one too. This is your physical health. This is your diet. Drinking lots of water. Many studies have shown that physical exercise can reduce stress. If you're feeling burned out, are you exercising? Are you eating well? Those are two things that you can address to help make yourself better. Get away. Base camp, I took two sabbaticals and they both helped a little bit, but ultimately I had to get away for a whole year. When I quit base camp, I didn't touch a computer for like three months. I didn't even open my laptop. Three months. And yeah, I had a big backlog of email when I finally came back to myself, but I had to get away. I had to see that there was more to life. I had to get away from all of the stresses that had gotten me there. And that might take a significant amount of time. It might not take you a year, but maybe it will. You need to reassess your goals. What do you want? Where are you going? What do you want in your life? It's the whole conflicting values, one of those mismatches, right? What do you want and is your current position helping you fulfill that? Because if it's not, then you need to get away. Say no politely, right? Don't take more work than you can. I know I have a tendency to say yes. When someone asks if I can help with something, I want to be able to help. I want to say yes. And so for me, it was a struggle to learn to say no. I'd love to help you, but I just can't right now.  Asking myself, why can't you? You're not doing anything. Well, no, I'm not doing anything except recovering. Getting better. When you're sick, you have to rest. Positive thinking. When you're depressed, the world looks dark. And I count myself fortunate that I have never struggled with chronic depression. But part of burnout, you do get depressed. And I fought some of that. I know there are others who fight it a lot more than I do. And it's trite to say, well, just think positively. If it's not a chronic depression, though, if it's a side effect of something else, thinking positive thoughts can help. And then last, find a role that fits. If your current position is not giving what you need, find something that will. Don't be afraid to go elsewhere. I have worked for someone my entire career. I was an employee my entire career. So leaving a job that gave me benefits and gave me money was terrifying. But life goes on. It does. How many of you here are self-employed? Okay, a few? One kind of? How does that work? How are you kind of self-employed? Okay, so some of each. So that's if you're burned out. This can help you get back to where you are. Now, what if you're not burned out? A lot of you here, I suspect, are doing just fine. The fact that you're here suggests you're not burned out. Because I know when I was burned out, I didn't want to go to conferences. So I'm probably preaching to the wrong audience. But this part, if you aren't burned out, well, you can talk about prevention. And this was interesting researching this. Some of these ideas I wish I'd known six years ago. Keep a stress diary. When you're stressed out, identify what is stressing you out and write about why. What it is and why you're stressed out. And over a period of weeks or months, look for patterns. Are you consistently stressed out by the same sorts of things? Look for things you can do to prevent that. If your boss is giving you problems, maybe it's a communication issue. And you need to sit down and have a one-on-one with your boss. And figure out what you can do to make that better. But the stress diary can reveal what's where those stress points are. Track your progress. What do you do in each day? How much work are you accomplishing? What kind of work are you accomplishing? How are you feeling about that work? There was an app, I think, was it Corey Haines, was it Mercury app? Yeah, I think it's still a thing too, isn't it? Anyone know? Basically, you would go in and you would just say on a scale of one smiley to five smileys or whatever, how good you're feeling that day. And you could go back and look historically how your mood was. That can be a very helpful thing. Mindfulness meditation. This is getting a lot of attention in recent years. But it's a great tool to have in your toolbox to help you identify what you're feeling and what's causing it. It also is a great way to relieve stress because you learn to accept what is happening as opposed to striving against it. Schedule some downtime. Don't be on all the time. A 20 minute nap during the day is a beautiful, beautiful thing. I have really learned the value of the 20 minute nap. Go for a walk, get out, read a book, run, exercise, do something outside of work. Change your location often is another valuable one. Like if you're in an office, you might not have a lot of flexibility that way, but maybe it means get up and go work in the lunch room. Go find some other location as opposed to your desk to go work. And I love this one. I've never done this one, but I'm really tempted. Write yourself fan mail.  I mean, I love that idea.  I love you, right? Can I be more like you? And there's a lot more. There's a lot of literature, actually. If you go online and search for job burnout, there's a lot of stuff being written about this. There's actually an entire journal called Burnout Research, which if you really wanna dig deep, you can read the Burnout Research Journal. The last thing I wanna talk about is bracing for burnout because no matter how much you try and prevent it, things can still blindside you. I don't know how I would have prepared myself for that whole Capistrano seminar fiasco. But there's some things you can do to prepare. You can get savings.  Are you financially able to do that right now? If not, try and get at least three month savings in so that if the worst happens and you have to just quit your job and get away from it for a while, you've got a nest egg that you can fall back on. If you are burnt out and you have no savings, that's a terrifying position to be in because what are you gonna do? You have to keep going to pay the bills. Better to have the savings to fall back on. Hobbies, learn something new so that when you do have to leave your job, you've got things to do besides just sit there and worry about all the things you're not doing. Related to this, and this one wasn't from the research. This is just my own experience. Always be learning. I love learning. I love finding new things to inspire me. When I was living down in Utah the first time, I noticed some birds in my backyard and I was like, what kind of birds those are? And the next thing I knew, I had bird books and bird apps and I was learning how to identify every single bird I found. It became this brief obsession which I'm no longer obsessed about but now I can look in my backyard and say, oh look, an Oregon Junko. Oh look, a Western Flickr. Oh look, whatever. You know, I can identify a lot more of these birds than I used to. And those kinds of things can help you prepare for burnout because when suddenly you have to stop working, you have other things you can do to pull you through that time. So just in summary, if you're burned out, your responsibility is to recover. That's what you need to do. You don't need to work, you don't need to feel responsible to your boss, you don't need to feel responsible to anyone but you to get well again. That is the number one.  And that's all I've got. Thank you. So is it true that burnout is more prevalent in developer communities than elsewhere? And that's not true, actually. There's actually an entire, what was it, an entire article I read called High Octane Women, talking about professional women and burnout because guys tend to be blissfully oblivious to the stresses that women have in professional environments and they are under a lot of pressure and burnout is pretty common among professional women. There's a lot of areas, a lot of different professions where burnout is a very real thing. It just so happens that being computer programmers is one of those. Okay, good question. So first of all, how did I recognize that I was burning out and when did I feel like I was ready to start working again? The burnout I was in denial about for a long time. It took me a while to really say, this is a serious and a permanent thing. It was about the time when I became my own psychiatrist that I really realized that this is burnout. This isn't just a, I'm tired. So that was 2013 and the whole Capistrano thing was 2008. So we were talking about a five-year decline before I finally said, I've got a problem. And then that next year, I worked a lot with Jason and David to find ways, like they let me spend, instead of being a programmer working on features, they let me spend three or four months being the on-call programmer, which was great because when you're on-call, it's a different problem every 15 minutes. You're not trying to focus on one thing for a big long period of time. And that was wonderful and that was really, really good of them to let me do that for so long. Ultimately, it was not enough. For when I felt like I was well again, it was about the time that I started programming recreationally again. I started writing my book, Mesa's for Programmers. You should all buy it. It was actually very therapeutic for me to write that book because I love Mesa algorithms. I always have. It's been a fascination of mine for a long time and so writing about them, I'd start researching the algorithms and figuring out how to write them and figure out the best way to present them and then it'd be like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if? And so I'd do a little side thing where I explored that algorithm a little more, did something fun, and gradually that joy started to come back. I think the process is gonna be different for everyone, but for me, I knew I was recovered when I was like, wow, I've got like five side projects suddenly and I haven't felt this way in a long time. Also, there's some bills that need paying and I should probably get a job again. That played a factor into it too, but it was almost a year for me before I got to that point. Would it be enough to have just one of those six mismatches to be burned out or do you need more than one? I am not an expert. I just know what I've read preparing for this, but from what I've read and from what I've experienced, I think it's definitely more than sufficient to experience just one of those and be at risk for burnout. I think it depends on the magnitude of it. Like if it's a, dang my boss won't let me choose the color of this button, that's probably not a significant thing if you have control in other areas. But again, for me, it was a small thing. I wasn't, I couldn't do these paid seminars for Capistrano, but I had all kinds of say in all kinds of other areas of my work. I had a lot of control. That's one thing David and Jason do really well as they empower their employees. So I had a lot of control, but it was my perception of the control that I didn't have that I think caused that trauma, that caused that paralyzation to proceed. That is a good question. Could I have prevented my reaction in 2008 if I had gone back in time two years and started implementing some of those preventative techniques? And I've asked myself that and I don't know. That's why I also emphasize the prepare, right? Cause I don't know that you can always prevent burnout every time. Maybe I could have been doing some things like the mindfulness meditation, the stress journal, some of those things that might have given me an outlet for the frustration I felt, cause at the time, I just knew I was feeling something and I didn't know what it was. So maybe if I'd been better able to identify those and really relate to them, come to grips with them, maybe that would have helped. I don't know. Ultimately though, I have to say that this burnout has been a good thing, Nat, for me, because it's helped me to discover lots of new passions. And it's showed me that I don't need an employer to be okay. That I can be self-employed, which I had never imagined myself in this situation before. And it's been really good for me. What did burnout do for my family? Or to my family, maybe? I know, I don't remember that list of all the warning signs. Let me just skip back to that quick. The warning signs. No, really. Oh, okay. Anyway, the warning signs. These warning signs, let me just state a few of them here, anger, anxiety, pessimism, apathy, insomnia, irritability, these bleed over. You aren't irritable just at work. You aren't pessimistic just at work.  And my wife was worried about me. We talked about me quitting even as early as 2012, maybe. And, but we were both terrified. No, we can't do that. There's no way we could make that work. I don't know that it affected my kids so much, but I know my wife worried a lot. And my relationship with my wife is such that we've never actually had a bitter argument. And so that was never something that would have occurred to me that our arguments would escalate. But I withdrew, I didn't share as much with her, and I think it hurt her in that sense. And if I had known that it was burnout earlier, I might have been able to talk with her along those lines. I'm feeling burned out. I have these things that are the consequence of my burnout. And then she and I could have worked together to find a plan to overcome some of those together. And ultimately that year when I didn't work, we did a lot of that talking. Like that was part of the healing process for me, was having someone to talk about it with. I don't know if that addresses your question. Any other questions? Yes. Jameis, with a bamboo pad. Okay, no. I would love to learn to draw. I just have not ever dedicated myself to it. And so the best I can do is write some words sometimes. Thanks for listening.


Hi and welcome to the session, I am Asha and I am going to help you solve this question of your NCRK textbook which says which of the following expressions are polynomials in one variable and which are not straight reasons for your answer. So, first let us learn what are polynomials. So, algebraic expressions that have only whole numbers at the exponent of the variables are called polynomials. The key idea we are going to use in this problem to find its solution. Starting with the first part which is 4x square minus 3x plus 7. Now, on observing this algebraic expression we find that where the variable is x and the powers of x in this expressions are 2 and 1 which are whole numbers. So, from a key idea any algebraic expression that have only whole numbers as exponents of the variables are called polynomials therefore this expression is a polynomial. So, let us write it down. The exponent of the variable x, one of whole numbers, the given expression 4x square minus 3x plus 7 is a polynomial. This completes the first part and now proceeding on to the next part which is y square plus root over 2. Now, on observing this algebraic expression we find that here the variable is y and the exponent of y is 2 which is a whole number therefore this expression is also a polynomial that is the exponent of the variable y is 2 which is a whole number therefore y square plus root over 2 is a polynomial. So, this completes the second part. Now, proceeding on to the next part which is 3 root over 3 plus t root 2 which can also be written as 3, t raise to the power half plus t root 2. Now, on observing this algebraic expression we find that here the variable is t, exponent of t the first term is half which is not a whole number. This algebraic expression is not a polynomial that is 3 root over t plus t root over 2 is not a polynomial since the exponent of t in the first term is half which is not a whole number. So, this completes the third part and now proceeding on to the next one where we have to find that y plus 2 upon y is a polynomial or not.  So, this completes the fourth part and now proceeding on to the last one which is x raise to the power 10 plus y raise to the power 3 plus t raise to the power 50. Now, here we have 3 variables x, y and t are the variables exponents are 10, 3 and 50 respectively which are all whole numbers. Y raise to the power 10, y raise to the power 3 and t raise to the power 50 is a polynomial in 3 variables. Fifth part and hence our answers are 1 are polynomials in one variable and n is a polynomial in 3 variables. It's the solution hope you enjoyed this session take care and bye for now.


Everyone, so we inherently all want to become better, but the difficult part is doing something about it. What's funny is that we all internally know what the right thing would be to do, whether it's start jogging, doing more fitness, eating better, starting to meditate, reading more books, whatever it may be. But again, we jump into the same problem, which is how to start doing it. In order to solve this problem, instead of just reading a book about it and then telling it to everyone, this is a great idea, try it out. For 10 days, I pressure tested the so-called two minute rule, where you commit to doing something for at least two minutes every day to develop a new habit. The secret to it is that two minutes is easy. When you think about doing something for an hour, that may demotivate you already. But when you think about two minutes, you think, I might do two minutes, that's not a big thing. And that gets you going. And the beauty of it is that if you feel like it, if you're inspired after you start those two minutes, if you want to stop, you can stop. But if you feel like continuing, you can continue on for as long as you want. And that's how the habit develops, because you feel motivated to do it because it feels nice to do it. And that gets you going and restarting it again the next day. So if you want to learn more about the two minute rule, feel free to watch the video that I filmed about it somewhere here in the link above. But what I wanted to share in this video is something that I'm super excited about. And that's that a whole group of people, and actually to be more precise, a whole group of women have started doing the two minute rule after they watch that video as well. It was initially started by Kate Riggles, who watched the video and started doing not only the pressure testing of the two minute rule, but also the idea that if you do something for 24 days in a row, then that will develop a new habit. And so she started pressure testing that and invited some of her friends to do it. And now there's a whole group of her and her friends doing it together. So what's awesome about that is, first of all, that more people are pressure testing ideas instead of just believing in them. The second thing, which is awesome, that more people are trying out the two minute rule, which worked for me very successfully. And what I think is the most awesome thing out of these is that now there's a whole support group for the group of these women, because now they motivate each other by doing it. And if you feel like you're not up to doing it today, you know that some of your friends are doing it and then that motivates you to do it nevertheless. And you can motivate your friends in the same way by doing it and showing an example to them. So it's kind of a circle which motivates itself. So this whole process has inspired me to start and try out an idea, especially these days, when so much of the world is going into quarantine, including my own country, Lithuania, where the shops are closed, the restaurants are closed, everything is closed. Only the main shops for food and gasoline are working. When you're closed off like that in your home, it's an ideal time to work on yourself. Yet the difficulty stays the same is, you know what would be the right thing to do. You know what would be a smart way to spend your time, but it's difficult to start doing it. So in order to overcome this problem, I decided to create a Facebook group, which I called the two minute rule club, where I am inviting you to pressure test a concept together. So in this group, I'm inviting you to pressure test that not only the two minute rule together, but also the whole system of supporting each other. Let's commit to doing something to better ourselves for at least two minutes every day together and inspire each other to keep on doing that by sharing each other's process, by showing what we're up to and what succeeded and what failed and just by inspiring each other by continuing and doing it as a group. So if you're interested to join and pressure test this idea to see if that will work, if that will make ourselves commit to becoming better each day for at least two minutes every day, I'll leave a link in the description below the video and at the top of the comments, so it's going to be easy to find. So I'll be looking forward to meet you there at the group and to share my process and to see what you're going to be up to. And also if you think you have friends who might benefit from this as well, invite them there too. Also to, again, if you want to learn more about the two minute rule, feel free to watch the video that I did about that. You'll get much more information there or just read the book. It's called the atomic habits by James Clear, which I think is an awesome book, but you're just going to have to find that specific article there or read about it online, of course. And until I'll meet you in the group, as always, keep questioning.


Hello there everyone and welcome. This is Melissa Armo with the Stockswasher Reviewing IBM. IBM has a nice move here today. Gap down here today and I had called the 140 puts on Friday and it worked. So again you're actually going to get out of this with money here. Today was the most profitability to be honest with you. Gap down here today open at 13712. So whenever you're in a putt and then it gets a gap down follow through that is the day you want to look to exit it or you can get out of a portion of it or you got to watch it. Same thing with a call. If you're in a call then you got to gap up. You know you should be up a lot. So that is what happened with this year today. So this was a really really really nice stream and again we're going to see trades like this. Earning season has started. Earning season officially officially started Friday with some of the banks reporting and which is ironic because we haven't done any of them yet. So kind of funny but we're waiting for to see what we're going to do tomorrow. But long story short this was a really nice gap that we played. Again it was a sell-off and we did this on Friday the 13th. The exit was today and even though this is you know still has time left in it you got to take profits. I mean the whole point of trading is chunking it out. You chunk it chunk it chunk it out. That's how you make money. This isn't holding it forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. This is getting the trade, getting the momentum, get out. Take the trade, grow up, get the momentum, get out. And again could be the same day, could be in a series of days. But you know when you see something like this where it has a follow-through and it's this far through the strike. You have to watch it that day and you have to look to exit or you just get out right into the open. So great trade here in the IBM. If you're interested in signing up for the gap options newsletter email me and Melissa at the stockswish.com. If you're interested in learning my method, how I make the options picks, then you would need to sign up for the GoliGap course. I only have three more classes this year and so this weekend October 20th, 21st and 22nd, I'm sorry, is the October class and then that's it. I only have two more classes this year. This is crazy. This year is flown by. So if you really want to know how I knew that IBM would continue and fall and follow through on this day that I did it 10-13, you would learn that in the reading system and you will learn that in the class. So email me if you'd like to sign up. I still have spots available. Deadline is Friday the 20th. Again, class is Saturday and Sunday, 21st and 22nd. Email me and Melissa at the stockswish.com. Have a great day everyone.