All right. Hello, everyone. Can you hear me? Awesome. Hi. My name is Becka Tabaschi. I am the director of community at the Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society, and it is my great pleasure to welcome you all here today in celebration of our Dearie Foma's book, The Quantified Worker Law and Technology in the Modern Workplace. Thank you so much for taking time out of your Monday and sunny one at that in November, which we'll take to join us. We're here in this conversation. It is cosponsored by the Petrie-Flam Center for Health Law Policy, Biotechnology and Bioethics at the Harvard Law School and for the Center for Labor and Adjust Economy as well. So we thank them in cosponsoring this incredible event in celebration of this amazing book. So Foma Junois, a faculty associate here at the Berkman Klein Center and a fellow for many years ago, who is the AI Humanity Professor of Law and Ethics at Emory Law and the founding director of the AI and the Future of Work program. This year, she's a resident fellow at Yale's ISP, and she has worked so hard on this book.  Foma is going to be in conversation with Professor Sharon Block, who is a professor of practice and the executive director of the Center for Labor and Adjust Economy at Harvard Law School. And following that part of the conversation, Foma will be in dialogue with Professor Yochai Bankler, who is the Berkman Professor of Entrepreneurial Legal Studies at the Harvard Law School. He's a faculty co-director of the Center here at Berkman, and he is the faculty director on the Program on Law and Political Economy at Harvard Law School. This event is being webcast. It's being recorded. Questions you ask will be recorded and kept as part of recording for posterity, but faces are not being recorded. Folks in the ceiling and from afar, thank you for joining us. We know there are a lot of people joining us from afar, and without further ado, I'm going to hand it over to Foma to take it away. Thank you so much. All right, so thank you, Becca, for that wonderful welcome. I always feel like I'm coming home when I'm at the Berkman Klein Center because I was a fellow here from 2016 to 2017, and they've never been able to get rid of me since. I've been a faculty associate since, and it's always so wonderful to be here with the Berkman Klein folks, and I want to welcome you all here today for this book talk. This book took about six years total in the writing, off and on, and there were several times when I thought, why am I writing this book? Nobody cares, nobody will ever read it. So I am delighted that actually people do care now that the book is published, and I am delighted that people are reading it. I'm not so delighted that actually it remains still relevant in terms of the problems that it describes, but you know, the struggle continues as I say. So thank you all for being here, and I hope you enjoyed this book talk, and we welcome your questions. Great, well let me extend my welcome too. So excited for this, I feel like it has been in the works for a long time, and as sort of you intimated sort of the whole world has sort of caught up with your attention to this topic. And as we were talking about before, one thing I really love about the book is that it draws our attention not to the topic that I think a lot of people focus on, which is job displacement as a result of AI, but how it's going to change the experience of work, which I think will be even more profound as you explain. But having come out of the Biden administration, I have to start this conversation with asking you and talking about folks who are now catching up with you. Just recently, the Biden administration obviously put out a really monumental piece of work, an executive order, sort of laying out how the administration is going to approach the many different questions related to AI. So I just love to hear what you think about those pieces of the executive order that are directed, particularly to the Secretary of Labor, Julie Sue, about coming up with principles and best practices on labor standards and job quality, and the use of data about workers and transparency. Where do you think they got it right? What do you hope to see? What else do you wish had been in that executive order? Right. Yeah, you know, first I want to say that I was thrilled that, you know, President Biden had publicist's attention on these issues of AI in the workplace. The executive order I did feel was a little love-sided in terms of focusing on the big existential issues of, you know, bioterrorism. But the fact that actually there was a section dedicated to protecting workers' rights was very heartening. And I want to commend all the people that had a hand in the executive order. People like Alondra Nelson, Sophia Nodell, Joey Borlamy.  That being said, I was a bit disappointed in that I felt that the executive order did not necessarily have teeth, right? I felt that it was more advisory in a sense. It's, I think it's an excellent first step. The fact that actually the Department of Labor is named in it, I think is excellent. But I think also the EEOC could have been named and given, you know, sort of direct guidance in terms of what to do, especially given the rise of automated hiring and all the data that is also being collected as part of that. Similarly, the FTC actually should have been named in terms of how to regulate how automated hiring systems are marketed, the claims that are made in regards to them, you know. So, you know, I guess my overall sentiment is great first step. I wish they had more teeth. There's still a lot more work to be done. And, you know, I am in conversation with people in government and at the White House and I hope to continue to work towards more regulations with teeth. Well, that's great to hear that you are part of the conversation. I assume so, but great to hear that confirm. So, I think one of the challenges in thinking about AI in the workplace is really figuring out what is truly new. What's just a different method of doing sort of the same old ways of controlling workers in the workplace. And so, I wanted to turn our conversation to this idea of Taylorism, which maybe for those who are in labor experts, you can explain what that is, but then move on to talk about what's the difference between sort of old-fashioned Taylorism and what you describe in the book as digital Taylorism. And what's new about it? Why should we be more concerned as it is facilitated in this digital manner? So, Taylorism is essentially the idea that you can quantify job tasks, that you can study how work is done and come up with a standardized more efficient method of getting job tasks completed. So, Taylor would work around, you know, he would walk around in a factory and watch and observe workers in terms of how they would complete certain tasks and he would make notes and would use this to essentially create a standard way of accomplishing job tasks. How digital Taylorism is different is that now the focus isn't merely on the job task, the focus is also on the worker themselves. And now the focus is not just about quantifying how the job task is completed, it's actually on quantifying the worker themselves with the, with this idea of figuring out what is an ideal worker. So, it's moved really from, you know, the idea that anyone can be taught to complete a job task to this other, I think, more pernicious idea that there are ideal workers, that there, some people are more suited to work than others and that it is a matter of finding those people. Can you give us some examples of how this digital Taylorism is actually being implemented in workplaces today? Right. So, it's implemented in various ways. The probably most accessible way to describe it is through the use of automated hiring systems. So, automated hiring systems oftentimes are presented or marketed as like an anti-bias intervention, right? They're marketed with the idea that they will remove bias from the hiring process because it is given, it is understood that human beings have bias, whether conscious or unconscious. And then these automated hiring systems are marketed as somehow more objective than humans and somehow able to remove the human bias from the equation. But this is actually very much a misnomer. It's really a false impression because if you look at actually the development of automated hiring systems, they were never meant to diversify the workplace. In fact, based on an empirical study that a co-author and I completed, the tagline at the beginning of marketing automated hiring systems was clone your best worker. So, it was meant to actually replicate the kind of workers you already had in any given workplace with the idea that of course you already have the ideal worker and it is a matter of just cloning them, finding more people like them. So, in this very insidious ways, right, automated hiring systems can actually replicate patterns of discrimination already in place in the workplace while obfuscating, right, that this is happening because of the way they're presented as objective or because of what Daniel Citrone has called automation bias. So, I want to follow up on that and pick up on what you said about humans being imperfect hiring actors. We, I think a lot of people have spent a lot of time thinking about implicit bias. So, even if you can do the education and whatever so that so that people don't intend to hire, you know, reflecting a bias, there's still this problem of implicit bias. I don't know anybody who thinks that we can actually get to a point where humans are perfectly fair. And so, you've described how those biases are playing out in AI assisted hiring. Is there a potential, though, if done correctly for there to be an improvement through taking human, I think a lot of people's inclinations are like, people are very imperfect. And so, do we have the potential to improve on the hiring process through the intervention of AI? Right. So, that's an interesting question. And obviously the sentiment is, you know, coming from AI developers is humans are the ultimate black box, right? Whereas with AI systems, perhaps, with the appropriate auditing mechanisms in place, you can actually understand where the bias lies. I think that's a comforting idea, but I think we don't want to be complacent about this idea, right? Because as it stands, you know, corporations are using automated hiring with no mandate for audits, right? With no mandate that they actually question the training data that's even going into this automated hiring systems. So, I think we would need a very thoughtful, deliberately designed system, right? One that has all the guardrails in place, right, to prevent bias for automated hiring systems to actually do what they're being advertised as doing, which is removing or, frankly, reducing human bias. So, in the book, you talk about the importance of employer accountability for the bias that is built into algorithmic hiring. I wonder what, if you've thought about, or what you think about the like matching services, so LinkedIn, Indeed, can you talk a little bit about whether or how they add a level of bias and what you think they could do or what more they need to do to address that issue? Right. So, I didn't necessarily focus as much on the book, on the matching services as I did traditional employers and how they're using automated systems. But in some parts of the book, I do talk about LinkedIn, for example, and how some of the features of LinkedIn can actually facilitate age discrimination. So, I think what happens a lot with some of the matching services is there's like a see no evil here, no evil approach. We've set up the automated platform, how people use it, that's not of our business. And of course, there's no legal mandate for them to care.  If there was a legal mandate for LinkedIn to care about how people are using its platforms and if it's facilitating different types of prohibited discrimination, then they might care. But for example, with LinkedIn, the fact that they urge or nudge people to put in their graduation year from college, that's something that facilitates age discrimination because recruiters can then search on those parameters. The fact that, of course, they nudge people to putting photos, recruiters can also search looking at photos. And that's just something to be aware of. And LinkedIn can choose, of course, to deploy interventions to alert recruiters, hey, if you're doing this, this is actually going to result in a disproportionate impact on people older than 40, which might put you in trouble in terms of employment discrimination laws. But once again, there's no mandate for LinkedIn to do that. So, it really still comes down to what are the legal mandates to nudge behavior? So, that's a great segue. There are at least the beginnings of some regulatory initiatives in this space. I wonder if what you are seeing out there, either through the kinds of guidance that the EEOC has put out. I know there have been the beginnings of regulatory regimes in New York, California, and then I'm particularly interested what you think about what the EU is doing, because at least it seems as if they are once again in sort of the labor space a few steps ahead of where we are. So, what do you think about those different efforts and what pieces of those do you think are particularly useful in this space? Right. So, there have been some trickling sort of legislation and regulation around automated systems and how they impact workers. For me, I think the most effective, well, it remains to be seen, of course, it's still quite new, but I think what will be the most effective is what New York City is doing, which is this mandating of audits for all automated decision-making systems, because that's how you see the problem. You can't necessarily fix the problem if you don't even know what the problem is. I think, you know, EU is all about the more omnibus type laws about privacy. And, of course, there's issues of how do you even, you know, how do you implement it, you know, and it can be unwieldy. But I think New York City, by having this direct specific intervention of you must do audits. And, you know, if you have something wrong, then you now know and you have the opportunity to fix it. And that's actually something I had advocated for in the book, right, this idea of mandated audits with a safe harbor, right, for corporations to then be able to fix what they find. I think we need this, frankly, at the federal level. And I think that's a regulation that can have teeth, because once they have that information and they still don't fix it, you know, take action, then it can embolden lawsuits, right? It can embolden placers and provide them with the evidence they need to succeed. Do you think, do we have the experts available to be able to do that kind of audit? Like, how, how different is that? What different skills is that kind of auditing going to take? Obviously, all kinds of employment tests already have to be validated through audits. How is this going to be different? And are we ready? And I don't know what can places like Berkman Klein do to get people ready? That's, I mean, that's such an excellent question, because I think with the recent congressional hearings, we've seen sort of a lack, right? We've seen a wide gap in the knowledge and skills required to really even comprehend what, what the AI revolution is. So I think it really points to every thinking of legal education. I think thus far, many law schools are still treating AI and the law as a fringe sort of area, or even, even with labor and employment law, I feel like it's still seen as a little bit fringe. And I think that's just wrongheaded. 99% of us work for a living. So, you know, these AI systems in the workplace will impact us sooner or later. So I think, you know, we do need to have our thinking of legal education. Do we have enough AI and law courses? Do law schools even have AI and law courses? Do we have enough lawyers coming up who can feel necessary positions at the EOC, the FTC, in Congress to deal with all the AI and law issues that are, you know, in the pipeline? So yeah, excellent question. We need AI trained lawyers, you know, bottom line. Great. Well, and that, again, is a great segue. My last question before I turn the conversation over to my friend, Yohai. So I want to switch a little bit to workers who not just about the hiring process, but once they're in the workplace, who are being surveilled by employers. I think the most surveilled workers, certainly that I've heard about are ride-hell drivers. Click on an app every time they get in the car. And then Amazon warehouse workers. And I think we've heard a lot. There's been a lot of reporting on how they are tracked. One phenomenon that I know I'm hearing more about are workers who are being discharged or in the case of ride-hell drivers deactivated through the intervention of the algorithm without contact with a human being, which seems, I mean, I'll just say terrible and like dystopian on so many levels. But one level is how workers can even understand or contest that kind of adverse action. And so picking up on what we were just talking about, what do we do about that information asymmetry, where an algorithm says you deserve to be fired? What do you see as a way for workers to be able to say no, you're wrong? So I think, you know, fundamentally, that issue is both an information asymmetry, but also a power symmetry. And I think it's the crux there is that we have at will employment in most states in the United States. And I think the only way we can start to correct that power imbalance is really through unions, right? I think workers who are unionized could actually have a say in terms of, you know, this is how you can terminate someone. These are the procedures that need to be in place before someone can be let go. But otherwise, you know, you know, legally, workers don't necessarily have a recourse unless they can prove unlawful discrimination. But if it's just a matter of the algorithm said you weren't as productive or you, you know, missed work when, you know, you didn't and you can't prove otherwise, then you don't even have a space for contestation. So I think, you know, as I advocate for in my book, unions can have a large outsized role in the revolution in terms of being able to dictate how workers are hired, being able to dictate how worker data is collected, and also appropriated. And then finally, also being able to dictate procedures for firing. Great answer. Okay. So thanks for this really wonderful book, Rich Thoughtful. You asked me to focus in our part of this conversation before we open up to everyone on the more theoretical aspects and on the interaction with law and political economy. And so we'll have a little bit perhaps of just opportunities to go back on some of the things that Sharon focused on. One of the things I like about this book that like Virginia U banks who wrote so nicely, you start with the history, rather than just with the present, not out of nowhere, but out of a rich, long history. And you give examples in detail from Taylorism, not just as a metaphor. You talk about the Ford sociology department and the effort to understand the workers at the cutting edge of the social science of the time. So I guess the question to me is what's your understanding of the role of quantification in the distribution of power between managers and workers as managers and workers. What role has it played in the past? How and you focused specifically here on the ideal worker and you have this amazing you have this whole chapter on personality tests. And then on video interviews and I have this line you have here from the opening on the video. The video interviews you describe as the latest salvo in the war to quantify not just output of the worker, but also the Gestalt of the ideal worker. You compare these to phrenology to eugenics. So give us a little bit more about what you mean about the power struggle between workers and managers, what role quantification, what role social science, and what is this Gestalt of the worker? What does it mean? So I would say that quantification can be thought of as a technology of control. So not even just necessarily about power, but having ultimate control. And you know, Michael Burroway, the sociologist, has theorized that, you know, even just the factory line, you know, the fact that people have to line up and do their work right next to each other is a technology of control because you can see what the other person is doing and you feel the pressure to keep pace, right? Similarly, I would say the technology of technologies of quantification is about control. It's about exacting the utmost labor from workers while exercising complete control over the workers such that they cannot actually organize and resist, right? Because if you're quantifying them to the minute detail, they don't have the time to organize. They're so preoccupied with meeting your quantified standards, they cannot even have the time to organize. And the Gestalt of the ideal worker is really this idea also growing out of quantification, which is all about essentialism, right? That the ideal worker exists out there, that it's not made, but it's already there and it's to be found, right? And so it's this idea that you can separate the ideal worker from other workers. And that the idea of working is something that's somehow innate as opposed to something that can be taught, right? And quantification is a means to find that. So can you say a little bit more about that last piece? Because I could easily imagine a situation where you understand Taylorism as measuring the ideal outcome and then through training and enforcement. And so if you think of Karen Levy's description of the use with truckers, no, don't stop here, go over there. Where do you see this? Is it a necessary connection between quantification and finding an ideal worker that's already there? Or is it something specific about the way in which quantification is in those fields you've looked at that doesn't take advantage of the possibility of minute monitoring and then pushing to be like the ideal worker? Right. So there's this idea of pushing to be like the ideal worker. But inherent in that is that is the idea that the ideal worker exists because you have to have that standard to then be pushed towards that standard, right? And also that idea is that there are some people who will never meet that standard. And you just basically want to eliminate them, right? From even entering the workplace. That's where automated hiring comes in. And you know, Taylorism is, you know, I would see quantification as an evolution of Taylorism because yes, Taylorism was focused on minutely defining the tasks and nudging workers, right? To the correct way to do the task. But quantification goes beyond that in thinking that there is this ideal worker as a standard that all the workers ought to aspire to. And also inherently thinking that there are people who can never be the ideal worker and she just essentially be eliminated from the workplace. So unlike Taylorism, you have workplace wellness programs, right? Which is really a risk transference, right? And unlike Taylorism, you have genetic testing as part of workplace wellness programs, right? And you know, the idea is really that there is this ideal worker. And you start to see that in Fortism actually, right? Because Taylorism didn't have the sociology department, but Ford did. And he was actually making it about this idea. He actually said, I'm trying to create the ideal American. Of course, worker was attached to that. But he did have that ideal in mind. So this is actually exactly the next thing I was going to try to move us to. And that's the role of science as ideology in the legitimation of all these new structures of power.  There's a, and then you have this amazing statement early. This isn't in the version I have here. So I'll quote only. You talk about how unique it was that progressives uniformly, labor advocates and progressive politicians all thought that scientific management would actually create a more harmonious workplace. Exactly. So can you talk a little bit about how you see in this trajectory of history, science as a legitimating ideology for a particular pattern of power distribution? Yeah. So in the book, I actually have found a letter from the archives of Louis Brandeis corresponding with Taylor in admiration that he had created this amazing system that was going to allow workers to be more productive. And if you read the principles of scientific management, the way that Taylor presented scientific management was that it was actually about bringing together workers and managers. It was bringing their interests together. It wasn't necessarily about, you know, worker managers exerting power over workers. And therefore, right, labor unions, labor advocates were all in favor of scientific management until, right, it was actually put in practice. And then you had the backlash from the actual workers who experienced, you know, the way that scientific management was used in a very, you know, curmudgeonly way, right, to extract labor from them in a way that they felt was actually reducing their personhood, diminishing their autonomy. And that's why you had those congressional hearings. But you're correct in that a lot of times when we have a new system or a new sort of way of organizing, you know, a political economy, a lot of what props it up is this idea that it's scientifically better, right. So similarly to what you see with automated hiring, it's just, oh, it's more objective, right. And I could see how for perhaps some workers, they might have thought even that scientific management was going to be better because now you have a set system, you can show exactly how much work you did, right, versus, you know, having a manager who might like someone or favor some workers, you know, over others, etc. But I guess what was not taken into account was the sort of power abuses that scientific management would introduce. Because as part of scientific management, we also then got the Pinkerton detectives, right, who were deployed to, you know, bust unions and to keep workers in place in a very violent manner, actually. So there's a strong theme throughout the book implied in everything we've talked about up till now, but I'd like to put it on the table. And that's your theory of race and racism and how they intersect and interact with class, with gender, with disability. You could easily imagine that, not could you imagine, the standard neoclassical model is discrimination is a form of inefficiency because you're leaving talented people on the table. All of this quantification, all of this scientific structure and yet race plays here a central role. So can you talk a little bit about your theory of how race and racism operate, but also their way in which they interact with these other dimensions of power along class, gender, disability. So in some ways, you can think of race as operating to dictate who will be the surplus class, who will be the workers that are warehouse, right? And this is something that other scholars like Michelle Alexander has noted when it comes to, for example, mass incarceration, that it's a way to warehouse what is considered a surplus labor class. But you can also see how a lot of what is now being used as part of management actually came out of the plantation system. So a lot of our modern day accounting practices actually came out of the plantation system in terms of how the ledgers were established in terms of how productivity was quantified. And so a lot of it is this idea that you are creating a class with capital, and you're creating a class that will work to perpetuate that capital. And the question is, who is assigned where? So the way race is played out in the United States is that the racial minorities are assigned to be the ones replicating capital for others. And quantification allows for that to continue to play out in the way that it stymies mobility, right? In the way that it refuses to take into account other exigencies that actually could enable social mobility that would benefit, right? What is considered an underclass? So it's interesting that five stories down, Adna Rusmani is giving a talk on from plantation to mass incarceration. Unfortunately at the same time, because I'm sure there are lots of people who would like to have been involved. In your response earlier to Sharon, you talked about unions as part of the programmatic proposal. But I actually want, before we go there, you write in the last part with this about your conception, the relation between union power and workplace democracy or ethical companies. You write at the beginning of the last part, you write the one-sided power dynamic of modern work means that workers are most often helpless to satisfy their self-interest under the yoke of employer domination. Instead you propose an orientation toward workplace democracy or workplace republicanism and more generally that workplaces begin to shift towards Rawlsian justice at the institutional level. Can you say a little bit more about what that means, what the theoretical framework is and how it relates to specific programmatic proposals like union power as opposed to co-determination as opposed to other institutional structures. How do you think about those? This actually relates back to your question about, for example, what the EU is doing. So something you see in the EU is this rise of worker councils where workers in a given workplace will elect people to be on the council and advocate on their behalf directly with management. So not necessarily like a whole scale union, but within workplaces workers have representatives. So that would be worker republicanism really at play there. In terms of the role of unions, I actually think the role of unions goes towards the data that's being collected, for example, as part of the AI revolution of the workplace. There's so much data being collected and I think that that data could be useful if wielded for the benefit of the workers as opposed to wielded as a lash to keep them working. I really dislike the term data driven because I'm like, you know, think about what you're saying with that term.  And I think we can rethink that. We can actually think more data enabled where unions do get access to the data that's part of the workplace and they use this to talk to the workers and discuss like, okay, this is your productivity for this and that and how can we enable you? What are the sort of environments or structures that you need to be better workers or to be more effective? And to me, this is also part of meaningful work. I think for human beings, work is meaningful. And this is not just for me. This is also a term in organizational theory. Work is meaningful when human beings feel like they have some measure of autonomy in how they perform that work. And they feel that they actually have some measure of some measure of how that work is used or products is used or some measure of how the workplace is even designed, like how the work structures are set up. And I think with unions, having access to the data, the same that employers have, you remove that information as symmetry and you start to correct the power imbalance in that unions can then advocate better for workers to create the environments that workers can enjoy working productively in. And actually, a lot of the data out there shows that workers are more productive when they enjoy coming to work, when they have environments that best suits their needs in terms of getting work done. So we don't need to drive them with data, but we can enable them with data. So I have plenty more questions, but I think there are people here who want to ask and I'm wondering as we're going through just it's almost a question to both of you. Because of your writing in your work and Sharon, because of your rich experience, what's realistic politically from these images? If you had to identify what you consider to be and you talk about audit as a central, what do you consider to be plausibly achievable in the institutionally constrained environment of the United States? And I'd also be really curious, Sharon, to hear your view from halfway on the inside on that particular question. I might let Sharon go first. I'm very interested in hearing you from your experience. To me, obviously, the non-immediately achievable answer is like labor law reform, because even workers who have unions don't have a right to bargain over the introduction of technology into the workplace under current labor law. So even when our system is working, it won't work. You're a believer in Riker's Guild doing the right thing. Right. I mean, so they were able to negotiate over the introduction of AI in the workplace because they had the power to do it, not because the law gave them that power. It came from just their role in their sector, the fact that they have a scarce skill that the companies finally realized they couldn't do without. So understanding that most workers don't have that leverage in their sector, I think there's some interesting possibilities, especially for workers not covered by our federal labor law, where you could have, like here in Massachusetts, I mean, this isn't focused on AI, but it would enable more bargaining over AI for like right-hand drivers who are now, because they are misclassified as independent contractors, there is an effort here in Massachusetts to get them collective bargaining rights, where then, because these issues are so present for them, if that were successful, they could actually start bargaining over these issues. And we would start to learn not, that's a small answer, but we could start to learn what does that look like to give workers the right to bargain over AI, how it operates to control them, and what are some of the, you know, the possible pathways for which when our politics change and we have the ability to regulate more broadly, we would know a lot more. So for me, that's just a really present, urgent, whatever word you want to use, possibility. Now, sadly, it looks like it's not going to actually happen here in Massachusetts, but yeah, I would say that's what I'm keeping my eye on in this space right now. I would say realistically, I think a lot can happen within agencies. I mean, we've all seen the FTC and the work it has done already. So I think, for example, the EOC could take actually bigger actions when it comes to automated hiring.  I think that can be a huge help. Yeah, so many questions. Yeah. I have a suggestion and a question. Are you aware of the microphone? Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. I have a suggestion and a question. Are you aware of the MIT Schwarzman Center of the College of Computing has a program? I went to the first one. They had the inaugural one earlier this year. It was the Social and Ethical Responsibilities in Computing, and I would really love if they are going to be here another year or at least I would love to have you give a talk because they talk about medical, legal, ethical, you know, it's not just all tech, and I would recommend highly that you bring this up because obviously the issues of unionization, quantification, AI. AI was like for most of the day. So it's not certainly not going to go out of fashion. My question to you is regarding the perfect worker. I know they have a lot of control in terms of monitoring people within work, but is there an issue of starting to invade people's privacy, like the excessive monitoring of people's social media protests and their political leanings or just kind of like it's one thing when you're a teacher and you're doing something like pornography. That's kind of obvious, but there's certain things where they have really no business or no right to know how you spend your life personally, but nevertheless they made that contingent upon your employment. So great question. Prior to writing the book, I co-authored a Law Review article with Kate Crawford and Schultz looking at the idea that there is this limitless worker surveillance that exists under American law, which is the idea that if you're working for a private corporation, private corporations are like Elizabeth Anderson wrote, treated like private governments and therefore have really carte blanche in terms of the surveillance that they can enact on their workers. So ironically, if you work for the government, you have better privacy protections than someone who works for a privacy corporation, because at least working for the government, the Fourth Amendment protects you from certain invasions of privacy. So that is a big problem, I think, in American law, that we don't have privacy protections for workers or really for anyone. I mean, privacy rights are really seen as a penumbra of rights. They're not necessarily seen as a strong constitutional right. And as recent Supreme Court holdings have made clear, very much under debate how far they actually even go or if they exist at all, apparently. So yeah, unfortunately, yeah, there are no privacy protections for workers. And that is the problem. Thank you. Wonderful talk. I wonder what your response is to the following two musings regarding the entire issue. I come from science and engineering, and I noticed in far less complex systems, how data driven, you go a little bit off your data. And the drive falls with and crashes into pieces, whatever you describe. So which data are you using is just an interesting question. That's Muse 1. In fact, an Israeli company, I know, they have a psychologist. And he said, we have too much, too many of those. We need all of them. We need a geek over here. And we have too many geeks. We need that one. And so there's no ideal worker. There's an ideal workforce, which is all together. And it happens to be good according testimony of a friend and worker. The other thing is given the complexity, the problem with systems like that or the controlling guidelines is the intellectual laziness of people. So they use only this and that and that data. And that for hiring or for government regulation. I mean, experts would give you as many horror stories about government or trade unions or employers or anyone. And how do we allow for that complexity of remedies and rules? Thank you. That's a great question. Touching on data and how effective or even appropriate the data is, we do have in our audience an expert who has written on that, Anupam Chanda in the back. And I hope I'm not misquoting him when I say that he has noted that the data that is fed into these systems matter quite a bit. Because if the data is not neutral, the data is tainted by past historical decisions that may have been racist or sexist. And therefore, if you are using that data without necessarily interrogating where that data came from, how it was collected, and maybe even correcting that data, then all you're doing is replicating an ingest system. So yes, I think that's a great question about data-driven, but which data are you using to actually even drive the workplace? So thanks for a great talk this afternoon. And thanks for the shout out. And I and others are making similar points along those in that vein. Here's the question that I have for you. I feel a kind of sense of despair in this context. I'm not actually convinced that Yokai asked you about possible approaches that are accessible. I'm not sure that reforms, so you pointed to the possibility of worker councils kind of organization, which I think is really probably the most likely hope. But my worry is that once the data is available, any economic system will, so it's not just even the economic system, it's everything will want to use that data for these purposes. Worker surveillance is a kind of, there's such an imperative around it that it becomes impossible to evade. And I don't know if any economic system moves out of that. So that's what I would like some help with. Maybe the worker councils helps temper that you talked about more kind of due process rights before people are pushed out, etc. Is that the best we can do? Yeah, I mean, it's a thorny problem because I think what you're describing is Chekhov's gone, right? The fact that these technologies exist, these technologies of surveillance exist means that people are always going to want to use them, right? And to collect this data that can then be misused against workers. And the question is, what can we do with that? So I think, of course, a big part of this is actually re-educating employers themselves, right? So in one part in the book, I write more data, more problems, right? Because I feel that there is a sense among corporations that they need to just collect data. There's this appetite for data. And they feel that it's like they're not as competitive or they're just falling behind if they're not collecting as much data as possible. So frankly, I think a re-education around that is necessary. Some companies are getting it. And I've presented the book at some corporations and I've seen people nod when I talk about data minimization as actually a process. And they're like, yeah, we do that. So I think just that education of like, you don't necessarily need to take screenshots every five minutes or every five seconds on the worker because whatever you're learning is much less useful than the fact that you've now interrupted that person's flow. You've now intruded on that person's privacy. You've now made that person feel less like a human because you're watching over your shoulder. So yes, I appreciate that question because it's not necessarily just the legal interventions or the union interventions. It's also just about changing ideologies. And that's the ideologies at the top for employers and corporations. Incredible. As always, thank you to the three of you. Thank you all for coming. We have books that you're able to take and signed. And thank you for coming and thank the three of you. Thank you all. Thank you all so much. Thank you both. Thank you both so much. Thank you so


Yo guys, I just began the editing process on this video.  And I'm too lazy to rerecord it, sorry. Here are seven affordable things that you can do to make your fits all the much better brought to you by Surfshark. So let's start off with the free things that you can do. All you have to do is contact your family members of a different generation and just see if they have any clothes in their closet that they don't really wear that much anymore. Because most likely their youth was spent in the 80s and 90s and that era of fashion has been back for a good while now. Y'all have seen it in 2015 and 2016 with the 80s banties and now 90s fashion is back and I am all for it. This is a free way to upgrade your fits especially if it's a denim or a leather jacket. Those are grails because those will never go out of style. You're just most likely gonna get a different fitment to today's standards like this denim jacket right here. My girl, this jacket belonged to her grandfather and we both use this whenever we want. It's cut to be boxier. The wash is a lot different. Definitely a signature 90s wash. This is just better for the environment and you're gonna get a jacket or whatever piece it is that you can't buy at an affordable price because companies are trying to mark up their prices, capitalize on the trend for profits and to circumvent that just hit up your family members or you can thrift, I'm all for thrifting as well. That's just not free. Now the next thing you can do is to further accelerate the aging process of an item by burning it, standing it or cutting it. I know it sounds kind of weird. It sounds kind of ridiculous actually. Now I only recommend doing this on your headwear. I don't recommend doing it on your tees or your pants. Maybe did them, that's about it. Anyways, this is an inevitable process that will happen to any of your items. For example, this hat I picked it up from the shy. It was a little too harsh in terms of the contrast within the hat itself.  I thought I'd tone it down a bit by literally just burning the leather patch on it. Be safe guys. It didn't have to be so perfect and crispy. It's a trucker's hat. Those aren't meant to be crispy. So instead of wearing a crispy hat for a few months straight just to get that worn in look, I made it a lot more wearable right away by doing it myself in just 30 seconds. Other things you can do is sand a piece with some sandpaper or in my case, grip tape. You could also slash some of the threading if you want. I just prefer sanding. If you wanna do this with other items, go ahead. You could just distress your denim with a Dremel or something like that. But aside from denim, I do think those other pieces wear out better over time itself rather than you manufacturing the aging on it because those items, they do make more contact with your surroundings while your hat, it just stays on your head and collects sweat. Moving along, we got the cheap affordable stuff but not exactly free. And so I'd say pick up some fabric spray paints. You could drastically change the look of any item of your choice as long as you learn how to spray. As always, a good rule of thumb is to spray at least six to 12 inches away. That way it doesn't cause any dripping. Remember when you did that to your 91 Civic SI hatch brake calipers for extra horsepower? Same process. I really recommend checking out the Homie Corbin. He did make a video on these criminal forces and he made them a lot more tasteful, more aligned towards the Coldwall Air Force ones and he used this exact spray. You can do the same. The cans are pretty cheap and you can probably get a lot of DIY projects with just one single can. Next subtle outfit upgrade that you could make is swapping out the laces. Pretty simple. What I recommend doing is un-lacing your sneakers and measuring out the lace length. Every sneaker is different. Just think about the Vans authentic versus something like the Nike Blazers. You wanna make sure you get the right lace length that way your knot isn't flopping everywhere. And just for the most part, go for cream. These ones, they actually came with my Vans authentic that I bought and I'm definitely gonna swap them out because cream and olive, they always look good together. These laces, they're a bit longer so they're more for high top or mid top sneakers and you really can't go wrong with cream just because it can make your sneaker a lot more easier to style instead of having a harsh white contrast. Cream is a lot more subtle and if you don't want cream, you don't want a black lace or a harsh contrasting white lace, go for gray.  Now, I understand tote bags, they aren't for everyone but trust me, they are nice to have especially if you do a lot of grocery shopping or just shopping in general. If you live in a big city like New York and you don't have a car, a bag in general is pretty much a requirement. And I wanna mention tote bags because everyone has a backpack already and this is just a nice switch up.  That's also pretty tasteful. I still don't really see them worn that often on guys. You know, I go to the city a lot. It's mostly on Instagram that you see the look and that's just from my experience and like I said, they're quite functional as well. Especially with today's day and age, I always keep my hand sanitizer in my bag. It's easy access and it's not taking up space with my wallet and keys. So this one right here, it does come from O-Ray NYC, shout out to Ray. It did cost a little bit more than your average tote bag but it's very stiff. It's made out of premium materials and this is probably gonna last a good while. This one right here was sent over by Nike whenever I did work with them. It's winterized, weatherproof and perfect for tech fits. But this one right here, I got from the Vans General Store, guess what? Five cents. I kid you not, five cents. Now you did have to buy a pair of sneakers but if you're gonna do that anyways, it's just five more cents and you get a pretty decent tote bag. Big shout out to the lady that rang me up. She was super cheerful, super nice. You need that kind of energy during these crazy times. And to be honest, most of your favorite stores already have tote bags available for sale. If you like plants, if you like anime, whatever you like, most of your favorite stores will have it. Definitely recommend a tote bag and if tote bags aren't your thing, go for a sling bag or a shoulder bag. I got this one from Uniqlo, kind of has a tote bag look but it's more minimalistic. Another thing that you can do that's actually, I guess, free if you think about it, I mean, you're gonna spend the money anyways but that is to change the sizing and fitments of a certain piece of clothing that you were already gonna buy. If you're used to the oversized look, maybe go for a more fitted look. But for most of the general public, since they're drilled to make sure that the shirt is cut above the tricep for maximum 12 inch arms exposures for the ladies, go oversized, size up a size or two. By the way, there's nothing wrong with exposing your arms. I've said it in the past all the time. Here's the difference between Jose's small oversized T's from Essentials versus the large oversized one that's two sizes up. The small is still pretty fitted to be honest. More normal fitting, I should say, something like a medium Uniqlo shirts while the largest two sizes up and seriously Jose and their team nailed the oversized fitments. And you can just see the difference between both items. They both give off a somewhat different vibe. All for the same price you were already gonna spend money on. Or instead of going two sizes up, you can just swap it out for a completely different cut. Some pieces are cut boxy, which is better for my short fellas. The hem isn't all the way past your homeboy down there, making for just a different fitment whenever it comes to layering. Or just go for different pieces altogether. Instead of spending that money on relaxed fitting denim, try a relaxed crop trouser. Maybe go for some flared pants, cargo pants, or pants that have a lot of customizability. Or check these athletic pants. You can just adjust the snap of the cuff to make it more tapered or just sit on your sneaker a lot more different than your average pair of denim. Plenty of options, just think a little bit more abstract. They're not just, these are pants just to cover my legs, and that's it. Clothes are more than that. Last but not least are of course accessories. I always recommend rings. You can get these cheap rings on Amazon. They are made of stainless steel. There's an endless amount of them and all for hella cheap. I'll leave a lot of links in the description where you guys can pick some up. Now a watch honestly isn't required for all guys, but I personally do dig on myself. This Casio watch has served me well and I honestly wear it more often than my $200 Oriented Kamasu. And guess what, 20 bucks. Of course necklaces look awesome, especially simple ones, yada, yada, yada. But I wanna recommend a bandana and a scarf. A bandana can be used to tie against your belt loop just for an extra splash of a pattern to your fits down mid body. It can also be wrapped around your neck for a pattern up top that adds a nice touch to a layered fit. A scarf is the trousers of neckwear. Very smart and sophisticated. I always feel like I should be wearing glasses whenever I wear one of these scarfs. It's also quite affordable. Great to keep yourself warm out there. Of course, I'm also recommending some beanies or any form of headwear. This one I got from Amazon, eight bucks. It's one of the most affordable accessories that can drastically change the vibe of your fit. After all, it does take up more surface area than jewelry would. And if you do like a certain brand of lots but can't really afford any of their items, guess what? A beanie is probably the cheapest item on their site. Plus, if you don't like wearing a lot of color, go for a beanie. Clearly these are going to add a pop of color to your fits and if you guys are like me and you have a more depressed wardrobe, muted colors and all that, this is something to add some color to your life. And the last accessory is of course, glasses. You're going to get a sophisticated, smart look. You can't really beat that. Some people do look better in glasses than others. You just want to find the right shape that you like on yourself. These glasses right here, they are from Jade Black. They are blue blockers. They basically help prevent the harsh blue light emitted from your screens from intercepting your sleep patterns. Just like you can prevent people from intercepting your data by using the sponsor of today's video, Surfshark. Who I shall now thank for supporting the channel. If you're ever using public wifi, it's pretty ridiculous how easy it is for people to steal your data. And that's where Surfshark's VPN service comes in. That's virtual private network by the way. Just open Surfshark on your computer or the app on your phone and you just got to tap one button and it's like you have your own private network at home while in public. And there's a ton of public wifi where I live. I'm always connected to one if I ever go out. Even if we're all staying at home, the service is still useful because VPNs are a great solution to any internet censorship in other countries. That can be certain social medias or content. Let's just say you're in a country with no access to Disney plus. That's where Surfshark comes in. Just change your country through the app and you will virtually be back in that country or any other country of your choice. And you could experience a paradigm shift after watching Soul or you could see the best lightsaber duel in all of Star Wars. Johnny has been a customer with Surfshark for almost a year now even prior to them sponsoring the channel. They also have very useful features like blind search so there's no ads, no tracking, no more talking about a certain item and then getting ads about it. Still very weird by the way. Go ahead and click the link in the description.  Thank you Surfshark for sponsoring this video. Protect yourself. And that is affordable ways to upgrade your fits. I know I did miss out on a lot. I scripted this video in one sitting and I just filmed it right after so I definitely missed some, okay? So drop your suggestions in the comments down below. Hit the like button. Follow me on Instagram at flywithjohnytai.


In everyday life, when I look out the window and I see a tree, then everyone would agree that the tree is there, whether I look at it or not. It has some property which makes it look green, again, whether I look or not and so on. With quantum particles, there are situations where the assumption is wrong that the property I see of the particle existed before I looked at it. That is wrong and that's quite exciting. So the state of the system, the state of affairs, so what is real depends on whether I look and the way I look. Now this is not just a philosophical question, we can see this in experiments and that is the interesting progress over the last 30, 40 years. Well, the world is certainly not deterministic, the world is certainly wide open, the world is more a world of potentialities of what might happen and what could happen. In Austria, we have a tradition which is somewhat philosophical. It goes back to a famous philosopher, physicist Ernst Mach and another famous physicist who was very interested in philosophy, Ludwig Boltzmann, so there was always this connection to fundamental questions. There was this famous philosophical activity, the Vienna Circle, which had the idea to put philosophy on very strong foundations. I should explain in which way we do quote-unquote philosophy with our experiments and that is that people have made very precise predictions what should happen, what kind of results you should see if certain philosophical assumptions about the world are true. And then you go and check whether the experiment really confirms these predictions or not. And if it does not, which happens in a couple of cases, then you know that some of the basic assumptions must be wrong. And that means that people have to sit down again and think, okay, how could we modify the assumptions? How could we learn something new that way? So I'm saying this because what we do is very precise, it's predicted certain numbers and we check them and we see in the experiment is it true or is it not true. So it is not a kind of a free wandering of the mind, it's not speculation in a sense, but very focused. And that actually is what's interesting, that you can answer as my friend Abhashimoni, a professor of both physics and philosophy in Boston in the United States, once said that you can answer philosophical questions in the laboratory by doing an experiment. Well, we now know with relatively high confidence, not completely, but high confidence that it's the idea of reality which is at stake because there have been different experiments looking at this kind of thing. So this is really a significant progress and different models of reality have been tested in different experiments and they all failed to support realistic pictures of the world. So this to me is conceptually the most important progress. There's also another progress which was a big surprise for me in my life and that is that the things which we and others are doing in the foundations of quantum mechanics suddenly become important for possible applications. When you asked me 20 years ago what this is good for, what I'm doing, no, I simply said this is not good for anything, no application which has to do it because curiosity is part of being human. It's like listening to music is part of being human or looking up at the stars and wondering what's going on up there, it's part of being human. But since about 10 years or a little more than 10 years, maybe 15 years, people started to develop new ideas on information processing like quantum computers or transmission of information like encrypting secret messages and so on which in my eyes have a fair chance to completely change our information technology. This is very interesting, it happened many times in physics that the most profound changes in technology came from fundamental investigations. While one of the applications is quantum cryptography, when you do a payment for example on the internet using a credit card, the information is always encrypted such that no unauthorized person can read it. But there's always an uncertainty to it, whether this is really true. Quantum mechanics provides a way where you know by the laws of quantum physics itself that the message is encrypted in a way that no unauthorized person can read it. So that's quite interesting, quite important. Another application is the quantum computer. It's a computer which does not work on bits like any existing computer but on what's called Q-bits or quantum bits. And these quantum bits, they are not just zero and one but they can be what we call superposition of zero and one. They can be in a sense be both at the same time. And that means that the quantum computer can process much more information than a classical computer. So these are two examples, teleportation is another one where you transfer the quantum state that is information from one place to another one in a way where this information is not traveling from A to B. It kind of disappears here, it's reconstituted over there which might be important for future quantum computers to talk to each other. So these are some of the ideas people are working on and this is a huge field now. Many, many people all over the world active in what's called now quantum information science. Nobody has an idea of when this will happen but there is an interesting hint and that hint comes from information technology itself. It's called Moore's Law, Gordon Moore, he was the founder of the Intel Corporation, the company which makes these computer chips. He found out that the number of transistors on a chip doubles every two years or every one and a half year. That means that the individual elements on a chip like individual even wires and transistors or whatever you name it get smaller and smaller. And if you look how this law develops then you can estimate that in about maybe 20 years or so we are at a situation where one bit of information is carried by one atom or one electron in short one particle only and then we are in the quantum regime. So the industry is going that way even if they don't want to acknowledge it at present but it will happen. The most interesting challenge or one of the most interesting challenges is to extend the validity of quantum phenomena to larger and larger objects. Maybe even someday to living systems and to basically show and learn and see that quantum phenomena are not restricted to the very small and maybe in the future they might even have some implication in our daily life, who knows.


How to deal with criticism? Naturally when you start on this journey of personal development when you start perhaps work on yourself a Little bit more than other people When you decide that you're worth it And that this is what you're gonna do that you want more for yourself than What society?  They will feel something. It's just human nature They will feel insecure about themselves Especially when you start to become successful they'll start thinking How come he can do it or she can do it but I can't do it and Naturally what happens they'll resent you for that because Your existence highlights their flaws highlights their inability to produce results so How are you gonna deal with this?   You need have courage.  It's just human nature. Have you ever been to a party and There was the one guy that was Dancing perhaps he wasn't even dancing that well.  How do you deal with this criticism?   That's how you're gonna approach their advice So that's the video for today guys Hope you got something out of it. If you like to give a thumbs up subscribe Subscribed and all that good stuff more to come more candle videos


Using power tools is a common cause of injuries across industry and we as roof tileers have to live with and manage this risk daily. Here are some key things to remember and apply when using any type of power tool regardless of how it's powered, so that we all get to go home in one piece every day. Step one, pre-job assessment. As they say, preparation and pre-starts prevent pretty poor performance. So a key part of starting any job, large or small, is to go through a thorough pre-start process. As part of the pre-start, check in with your supervisor and make sure your crew are qualified, trained and competent in the use of the power tools they will be working with that day. Consider using non-power tool alternatives that reduce risks and can make your job easier, quicker and safer. Step two, visual inspection and testing. Before using any power tool, including nail guns, always do a visual check of the equipment to make sure it's in good working order. Check things like guards on blades and safety mechanisms to make sure they are secure and working properly. If you're not sure, check the manufacturer's operation and maintenance information or check with your supervisor. If you feel the power tool is unsafe, do not use the equipment and let someone know. Where you are using 240 volt power tools, it's vital to make sure the leads are not damaged. They need to be tagged and in-date, but remember just because they're tagged and in-date does not guarantee they're safe to use. Standard extension leads should be less than 25 metres long and always lifted off the ground and away from metal structures to prevent accidental electrocution. Make sure a residual current device or RCD is used between the 240 volt power tool you're using and the power source and that it's also tagged and in-date. It's important to test the RCD each time before you use it. This quick test can save you from a harmful electric shock. When you're using battery powered, petrol or air powered tools, the key thing to look for is that the safety mechanisms on the units are working properly. Also check to see that all connections are secure and nothing is leaking from the unit. Step 3, basics that apply to all power tool use. With the work we do in the roof tiling industry, we get to use many different types of power tools but the principles to using them safely don't change. These are, remember to keep your hands and feet away from any moving parts. Keep people a safe distance away from you when you are using them. Being especially careful to watch out for people below you when you are working and when you are using them on the roof always make sure you stand securely and are well balanced. Finally, remember to wear the right personal protective equipment or PPE for your job and make sure anyone who can be affected by the work you are doing with a power tool is also wearing the right PPE so they are protected too. If at any time you are not sure how to use any type of power tool safely check out the operating instructions or ask someone. This simple step could save you from being injured or killed. By remembering and following these key steps when using any power tools we can all go home safe every day. Think smart before you start. Keep safety in mind.


This is Stink Tech, Hawaii. Community matters here. Oh, everyone, welcome. I'm your host, Sharon Thomas Yarbrough. Sister Powers VIP guest today is Kimberly R. Kelly, author of the number one international bestselling book, The Road to Mana, Finding Healing, Happiness and Power on the Road to Life. Kimberly is an anesthesiologist and medical acupuncturist specializing in anesthesia, acupuncture, pain management, and medical simulation. Join us as we discuss finding healing, happiness, and power on the road to life. Welcome, Dr. Kelly. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so very much. It's a pleasure to be here today. I'm so happy that you're here. And the reason why I'm extremely happy about it, I like our title from your book, Finding Healing, Happiness and Power on the Road to Life, because now we're in the throes after Thanksgiving of the holidays. And I find that this is a time that people are feeling either lonely or they're feeling overwhelmed by many things that is expected of all of us to get ready for the holidays. So I know you are going to map out for our sister power viewers the road to finding healing, happiness, and power on the road to life. And so give me a little bit of background about you. About me. Okay. I'm originally from Ohio, a Buckeye. I've been in Hawaii for about 15 years. I was going through a change of life. I had always visited Hawaii vacationed here and I thought that I would retire here. Never did I imagine that I would be working here. But as life would have it, here I am and I'm happy to be here. Oh good. You know, I was born in Toledo, Ohio. Oh my goodness. So that must be the connection. That's the connection. That is connection. I had no idea. So what part of Ohio? So central Ohio. I'm off of Springfield between Dayton and Columbus, small town off of I-70. You're off of I-75. Yeah. I live in Dayton, Ohio too. Oh my goodness. Born in Toledo, Dayton, Springfield. Really? My father had churches all throughout Ohio. Oh my goodness. That's wonderful. We have so much in common. We do. I did not know. Wow. Good. Well, getting back to your book. Yes. And I love it. When I first opened your book, it says, there is no greater agony than hearing an untold story inside you by one of my favorite poets, Maya Angelou. So what prompted you to write this book? Well, I'll get back to the quote. One of the things that Maya Angelou says is there is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside of you. And I'll just go a little bit further and say there's no greater agony than letting a story bury you. So as women, we all have stories. We all live this wonderful life, but we all have stories. And oftentimes, we don't share those stories. But I think it's in the sharing, number one, that we can become free. And number two, that we can empower other women when they hear our stories. Well, that's what it's all about. It is. And I think that people need to realize that you have to really like and love yourself first before you can really share your story and bring people into your wellness. And also, you're the founder and director of Core Wellness Hawaii. Tell us about your organization. So this organization came about because I am a medical physician, and I've been doing anesthesia for about 30 years. And I'm Western trained, but I realize now that that may not be the best model for everybody. Western medicine is based on a pharmaceutical model using medications. And what I found for myself and my own journey, that those weren't the things that I was looking to to help me to heal and to become whole again. What I looked for was more Eastern, more of a holistic modalities to help me. And so that's really what I describe in the book. We talk about meditation, talk about yoga, talk about nutrition, talk about exercise. Those are the things, mindfulness, the breath work. Those are the things that we can do naturally that help us to heal. Those are the things that can sustain us a lifetime. So that's kind of what I share in the book. So it's more of a transition from what you might expect from a Western trained physician, anesthesiologist to be specific to what really I've embraced in my own personal life to help with healing and wholeness using a more holistic approach to heal the mind, the body, and the spirit. You know, while they show us a picture of your book, I enjoy this first part about it. This is the story of five people who come together for one week looking for peace and a way to deal with the chaos of life, anxiety, depression, burnout, compassion, fatigue, and moral injury laced with regret have dimmed their prospects of living full and happy lives. And looking at the cover of your book, The Road to Mana, it's just beautiful and it's really peaceful and calming. How did you, what inspired you to write this book? So a couple things. Number one, I'll just briefly talk about the cover. The cover is actually a real picture of the road to Mana. There is a road to Mana in Waimea on the Big Island. There we are. There it is. Right there. It's beautiful. So are you. Thank you. And then in the background is Mana Kea. So I wanted to tell a story. We talk story, as you know, in Hawaii. And so I just wanted to talk story. I didn't want to be like a lot of the books, the novels. You need to do one, two, three, four, five things to help you heal. Well, that's not life. And it's certainly not life for me. So what I wanted to do was bring into five characters and they go away to a retreat on the Big Island and there's a wise sage, a lady in her name is Sister. And Sister is very knowledgeable in the ways of life and also in the ways of healing. And so each of the characters represents different persons that you may meet in your life. One is a physician, one is a veteran who's dealing with PTSD and anxiety. One is just like a housewife who's had to put her career on hold. And another one is a young lady in like a millennial, just transitioning. She's got issues with her gender. She has issues just in life. Where is she going to go? Just transitioning in general out of her parents home into her own place. So well, this is definitely a must read book because out of the five characters, everyone out there listening and viewing Sister Park right now knows someone that is going through depression, anxiety, and just feeling overwhelmed. And I think one of the characters is a biracial woman and she's trying to find her way. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And we get a lot of that, especially here in Hawaii, but it's almost as if our cultures are intermingled, but then how do we deal with that? Sometimes our society isn't necessarily kind, but if we give you ways and tools to help with that, it makes it a little easier journey. And so that's what I do in the book. That's what you do for each individual. Now are these individuals people that you know? No, actually not. No. They're based on people that I have known or in my own life, different parts of different aspects of me through the years, but they're not, it's not a real person. You would think, you think they are because you'll see some of you in each of them. I'm sure if you... Oh, absolutely. You probably saw pieces of you there. Because we live in such a society that they want more and more and it's almost, it feels like that you almost need to be perfect and we don't live in a perfect world and no one is perfect. Correct. And what would you tell that person that's trying to please everyone and it's trying to do too much and not giving enough back to themselves? Let it go. Let it go. Let it go. I have a girlfriend that wrote a book about that. Let it go. Well, because the only person that you can really be is yourself and in terms of trying to heal yourself, you have to heal from the inside out. And if you're not being authentic, not being transparent, then it's really not going to work. And so that's my own philosophy. Just let it go. You have to be who you are. How does that person find out who they are? What is their role to just starting off on that path? So I think they have to be comfortable listening to that inner voice because your body knows number one and then your heart knows. Now your mind, your mind will kind of play tricks with you and have you think one thing or another. But your heart usually knows and I think that's the beauty of as being a woman we have this inner knowledge, this inner intuition that sometimes we doubt we don't tap into that. We sit quietly, alone time, quiet time, peaceful time, usually in the wee hours in the morning, you'll find that voice because it's always there. But we don't listen to it and think, oh, no, that can't be true, but it is. Intuition is I always tell people when this tells me something, I follow this. This, you know, that can lead us, our heart can lead us here and there and our mind can take us. And I think we can overthink things too much. But that intuition, that gut feeling, just really puts you on the right path. That's the universal knowledge that's trying to tell you which way to go. The universal knowledge. Wow. So the book, The Road to Mana, give us some more information about their journey when they first start off, when the five individuals come together, they end up where? Well, first of all, how did they find out about this journey, this retreat? Was it a retreat? It is a retreat. Okay. It's a retreat. And so this is our retreats that we do here in Hawaii, actually, based on the book. So that's kind of the adventure that you can get. But most and foremost, I think that we heal and we learn in community. It's not me telling you what to do. It's not that parental dictatorship. It's more of a community relationship. And so the five develop a relationship. The first day, there's some tension. I don't want to tell you the whole story. But there's some tension and some anxiety because it's five people from all different walks of life. They don't know each other at all. They just know that they've come for different reasons. The veteran came because his commander had come several years prior to the retreat. And he said, hey, if you're trying to get your life together, this is where you need to go. So he was reluctant, but he was having some marital problems at home with his wife. And so she gave him an ultimatum, get it together or you got to go, buddy. So that was one of his motivating factors. The young lady, her name is Raco, she was actually there on the big island just with some other friends. She was doing some hiking and whatnot around the volcanoes. And then she saw it in one of the lodges there. And so that's why she went. Well, when we come back, we're going to finish the story and finish talking about finding healing, happiness, and power on the road to life. Don't touch that dial. We'll be right back. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. When I was growing up, I was among the one in six American kids who struggle with hunger and hungry mornings make tired days, grumpy days, that kind of days. But with the power of breakfast, the kids in your neighborhood can think big and be more. We're not hungry for breakfast. We're hungry for more, more ideas, more dreams, more fun. When kids aren't hungry for breakfast, they can be hungry for more.  Aloha. I'm Marcia Joyner, inviting you to come visit with us on Cannabis Chronicles, a 10,000 year artisty, where we explore and examine the plant that the muse has given us and stay with us as we explore all of the facets of this planet on Wednesdays at noon. Please join us. Aloha. Welcome back to Sister Power with our special guest, Dr. Kimberly Kelly. And we're discussing your book, The Road to Mana, Finding Healing, Happiness and Power on the Road to Life. And before we took the small break, we were telling us about the five individuals that attended the retreat. And you stopped at Rayco. Right. So I spoke about the veteran. I spoke about Rayco in her transition. And then there's also a physician. What a lot of people don't know is that physicians have a high incidence of compassion fatigue and burnout as well. And so if we as healthcare providers don't buckle up our seatbelt first, then how can we serve you? Right. And so Sarah is the character there who demonstrates some things that Sarah has to learn. And then there's another character. His name is Ira. Ira is an older man. And he actually had a farm out on the Bayard in a coffee farm. His wife died.  And he had some sons that he was mentoring to take over the business. Well, the sons betray him. And so he has to deal with betrayal and guilt and also grief and the loss of his wife. Yeah, those are three. I tell you, betrayal is if you've experienced it before, that is so traumatic because it's always the person closest to you. Yes, it is. And that's what makes it so difficult. So what was their takeaway once they, first of all, how long was the retreat? It's a five day retreat. It's a five day retreat. Five individuals in five days. Five individuals, five days, five different healing modalities. Each person, instead of me saying, oh, I want you to learn about massage, each person actually represents a healing modality. So it makes it a little different. And then when they, as they are on their journey and in their experiences at this retreat, because it's a very experiential retreat, they just don't sit and talk around the campfire. It's a little bit more than that. They go hiking, they go swimming, they bike, they do all sorts of things on this retreat, so that took to bring them together in that community. Well, that's a perfect, you know, retreats are just a perfect place to come together, especially with people you don't know. And I'm president of Sisters in Parang, Hawaii. And if we were to create a retreat and partner with Core Wellness Hawaii, what would the attendees expect from the retreat? Yeah, workshops as well. Correct, correct. But from the retreat, it would depend on the size of the group, but they could expect a very unique, experiential retreat, not only getting to know their sisterhood, but getting to know themselves. And that's really what makes it genuine and important. The other thing they would, I think sometimes we need permission to be free, sometimes permission to be okay and not be, be whole to almost, I don't want to say broken, but we're sometimes not all put together. Sometimes we, in certain areas of our life, we have a flat tire. Well, how do we, how do we fix that? How, how are we OK with saying that that may have happened to me? And that's only through telling your story, telling your story. And, you know, I want people to know that this is the number one international bestselling book. They should definitely go out and get it. It was very inspirational to me reading about the various people in the book. And I, you were, let's talk about because you do corporate wellness and team building as well. Yes, yes, we do. Yes, we do. So there's a group of us. I don't work by myself. There's a group of us. We have a counselor, we have a rofer, we have a massage therapist and we all sort of work together. And we would do an intake form to determine what your organization would need. We just don't have one size fits all. That's not how life works. And so we don't do that.  And we would try to provide. We would not try. We would provide that for you. Oh, I like that. Is there a minimum maximum of people? No, no, no. So how do you get the word out that you this wonderful organization is available? Core Wellness Hawaii, this is something that we need to do at least quarterly, I think. I agree. I agree with you. Absolutely. So this is a startup company. As I said, this is something that came out of the result of my work at the hospital, trying to fill a void in another way. I mean, I can affect each person one at a time. I just do anesthesia one at a time. But how can I affect more people and share what my what my thoughts are and what I believe may may help them? And so that's how core wellness came about. Wow. It's a startup company. So how long? How long have you been in business? About a year. And we do retreats and whatnot. So it's programs like this that we get the word out. Oh, good. Wonderful. Is there a retreat coming up soon? Are we shut down for the year? But in March, we have a very large retreat that's on. Tell us about the retreat in March. I can't read the book. It's kind of mirror. Oh, OK. So you have to read the book. OK. So it tells us a little bit about the retreat that's coming up in March. It's coming up in March yet. So it'll be just it's not going to be a five day retreat because it's actually going to be here on this island. And so it's just going to be a two and a half day retreat where we hit just most of the modalities, if not all the modalities. And we just kind of share and talk and and come into community and relationship. So let's talk about movement, staying active. You know, and I think that sometimes we just settle into not only into our work and we're sitting all the time, but just so in life, period. Correct. We do. So movement represents exercise. We have to exercise. And if we do it, we know that we feel better. We do feel better. It increases the dopamine receptors. And so we're much more happy people. But it's just that that initial inertia getting up off the couch and just going. But even if you just walk, yeah, that's my favorite exercise. Just walk, just walk. There's a marathon coming up. Just walk it. Oh, the Honorable Marathon. I believe it's the eighth or ninth of January. That December. Yes, yes, but that's a that's a that's a huge goal. But just start small. Just walk, walk five minutes, walk for 10 minutes. And then the next week, you do a little bit more and you'll be amazed. But just don't stop. Just don't stop. Just don't stop. Keep it moving. You got to keep it moving. I like that. And then mindfulness. Let's talk about mindfulness. So when I speak, think about mindfulness, I think about the breath. And here in Hawaii, ha, the breath of Hawaii, that's what Hawaii is all about. But the breath, focusing, concentrating on your breath as it enters your body and as it leaves your body, thinking, wonderful, happy thoughts, just focusing on the moment. So many times we're thinking about what we're going to do next, as opposed to being present right here in this moment. That's what mindfulness is. That's such a good point, because we live in such a fast paced world. And you're thinking about next month, next year already. Someone is asking me, well, what are you going to be doing for a holiday that was six months away? And I'm trying to figure out what right now, the next hour. Right. So how does a person position themselves to start putting themselves in the moment? So in the moment, you can be in the moment anywhere. You can be in the moment right here.  Is that some meditation? It is. People call it different things. I don't believe you have to be on the floor. I don't believe that you have to be in a certain position because that you may not be able to get into a certain position, number one. And it may not be convenient for you. So why put all those constraints, restraints on it? Just just do it and you do what you can when you can as you can. Just do it and just keep it simple. Just keep it simple. I think that's another aspect we should add to our life simplicity. Yes. And it's so much easier just to keep it simple. Just keep it simple, be authentic, be transparent. Because nothing at the end of the day, none of it matters. And guess what? We're in control of absolutely nothing. Correct. Correct. We think we are, but we're not. No, we are not. Do you plan to write another book? I do. I do. Each of the characters actually will have their own separate book at some point. And then this one is more for adults. I do really, I'm very, very concerned about our young people. We have bullying and those kinds of things that they're having difficulty, things that we experienced in my in my time, but not nearly to the extent that there are now. I'm with the Internet and all of those kinds of things. It's just very unfortunate and difficult to be a teenager. So I want to address a book specifically for that age group to give them some tools to help them ease on down the road. When I the road to Mana is Mana means power, Mana means strength and that's what we need to have as women. You know, this is a very important time in our life as women. In terms of medical school, for the first time, the women outnumber the men in medical school. Women are coming along and you witness the races, the congressional races. There were a lot of women were very, very successful. So it's I don't want to say it's women power, but it's just a change of the time. And we have a lot of power and we need to be able to utilize that power, not step back, but step forward and embrace it. And so the road to Mana, I kind of think about, do you remember the Wizard of Oz and Dorothy? Dorothy went through all these experiences with the crazy monkeys and the munchkins and all of this. And at the end of the day, she was, you know, begging the great Oz to help her. But at the end of the day, she had the power. She had it all along, but she didn't just didn't realize it. Well, that is what I'm trying to explain here in the book. You have the power all along. You just don't realize it, but you have to tap into it. Oftentimes we give it away. We give it to the physician. Oh, doctor, please help me. All of that. No, you have it right within your very heart. Right now you have it. But how do you tap into that? That's what we're talking about. That's the mindfulness that's going to show the cover again. So people can purchase this. The number one international bestselling book, The Road to Mana, Finding Healing, Happiness and Power on the Road to Life. And it's so needed in the world that we live in today. And I always tell people it's so much easier to be kind to one another. Oh, yes. And I noticed a difference when the holidays are coming. Everyone is cheerful and, oh, happy Kwanzaa. Americans, happy Thanksgiving. If we could give each other on a daily basis, just a smile to one another. Just a compliment to one another. That just that would make everyone feel better. I would. One of the things my dad says to me or as always said to me, he said, Kimmy, he said, if you find someone without a smile, give them yours. Oh, I like that. Say that again. Say that to the camera right there. They need to hear that. If you find someone without a smile, give them yours. Give them yours. And it's so easy to smile. I think I'm your physician. I mean, muscles we have when we smile and they're far more muscles when we frown. Correct. Is that correct? OK. I know a little bit about you. You're doing well. Very nice. Wonderful. So what hospital do you practice at? I actually work at Tripler. So I work with the veterans and I'm very, very honored to do so. And it was one of those experiences working at Tripler that also inspired the book because we do have a lot of veterans that have challenges and issues with PTSD and anxiety. And we are doing much better. The VA is doing a better job, but it's not nearly what it could be, given the resources that are that are directed in that way. And so one of the reasons why I want to bring light and focus on that because we have to help our veterans. Absolutely. And I like the fact that you have military and veteran programs. Absolutely. I'm a veteran myself. Absolutely. So let's just bring everything home and summarize and just leave our audience with just a peaceful journey that each person should try to take and input in their lives. I think never, never travel alone. I think you need companionship. I think you need relationship. I need I think you need friendship in in health and in sickness. It doesn't have to necessarily be a spouse, but a girlfriend. Yes, that's really what we need, that sisterhood, that bond. I think you need to be patient with yourself. I think you need to be kind and loving to yourself. Sometimes we beat ourselves up with our thoughts and our words. That self talk is very, very important. I I think innately, God has given us healing power with nutrition, eating properly, plant based, whole food diet. I think that's important because our food source is contaminated in a sense. It's difficult to get good, healthy, wholesome foods. We have GMOs and those kinds of things that that alter what we're eating. And so it's not like it used to be. So that's very, very important. I think massage, a simple massage is just in our our elders used to do it. You've seen them sometimes in the kitchen. They just kind of massage their hands. Just massage your hand. You can massage your foot. A whole body would be excellent. You can't always do that, but you can help yourself. There's some Japanese traditions that really do the hand massage that can really help. Mindfulness, just the breath work. Just take a moment to take a nice cleansing deep breath. How about if we stretch, just bend a little, maybe touch our toes. Those kinds of things, just as simple, nothing fancy. Yeah, nothing fancy. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Well, I want to thank you, Dr. Kelly, for coming on Sister Power and empowering, inspiring, educating us. And once again, I want everyone to go out and purchase the number one international bestselling book, The Road to Mana, Finding Healing, Happiness and Power on the Road to Life. Bye bye, everybody. Thank you.