Welcome to Sheboygan County Government, working for you. I'm Dan Lemieux, County Board Chairman, co-host of this program with Adam Payne, our Administrative Coordinator, our guest today is Tim Fincher, Finance Director. And we're gonna talk a little bit today about the Governor McCallum's deficit reduction bill that he proposed back in January. The state funding that comes to cities, counties, villages and townships is affected quite a bit by shared revenue and a major portion of the Governor's proposal deals with shared revenue and the elimination of shared revenues. So we're gonna talk a little bit about that today. We're also going to talk a little bit about how it will affect Sheboygan County if that bill is passed. But today, Tim and Adam, we're gonna talk a little bit about first the services that Sheboygan County provides in the last two years, our show has featured the different departments, highway, airport, healthcare centers, health and human services, 23 departments, and we've had most of them on our show over the last two years. But maybe just, Tim, if you could just a little preview or review and tell our viewers just a little bit about the services that we provide. Sure, glad to, Dan. I'm glad to be here again today with you. As you mentioned, we have 23 departments that are composed in this pie chart here. So if you take a look at this, they're kind of lumped together. So there's some categories here that include more than one department. Some of the pieces of the pie are just one department, some are more than one department. But all the things we do are included in this pie here and broke it out into pieces. And you can see the biggest one, the biggest piece is right here, health and human services, represents a budget of over $36 million, our biggest department. General administration would be things like finance, treasure, accounting clerk, et cetera, good size piece. Then the next biggest piece would be healthcare centers. Actually, healthcare centers is second only to health and human services. And that would be our three county nursing homes, Comprehensive, Rocky Nell, and Sunny Ridge. And then the other things that we do in the county are divided into other areas. Public works here would be highway, airport, capital projects, this would be the big ticket items that we borrow money to build around the county, airport improvements, buildings, et cetera. Debt services, a piece, a sizable piece here, over $6 million to pay off money that we've borrowed for our capital projects. Justice and law, 12%, which is substantial. District attorney, sheriff, clerk of courts, et cetera. And then there's a little piece here, environmental, which would be land and water conservation, planning and resources. So a lot of services we provide and kind of grouped into different categories depending on what they do. Tim, we have a budget of over 130 million that includes all the expenditures. How do we get the $130 million to spend? Where does the funding come from? A good question and one that everybody who lives in Cheboying County fully understands when they look at their tax bill because a good share of these dollars, this 131 million that you mentioned, come from tax levy. About $36 million comes from tax levy. So that's what you see on your tax bill every year for the county portion of the taxes. But other than that, the remainder of the budget comes from a variety of sources. There are a lot of state grants that come through to Health and Human Services here. There's some federal dollars and state dollars, substantial state dollars that come to the healthcare centers in the form of Medicaid payments for our nursing home residents. And then in all the other departments that are represented in the rest of the pie here, there are different funding mechanisms. Many of them come from the state or through the state to Cheboying County in the forms of grants or other payments for services. So it's really a mix of things that we charge for, fees for services, healthcare centers, I should note has substantial fees for service that they charge their residents at the healthcare centers. So even though it's a large budget, substantial portion of their budget is paid for by fees that they charge to their residents. The governor's budget deficit proposal deals with a $1 billion plus shortfall in state revenues. So they have a problem with their budget. How does a problem with the state budget in Cheboying County or local governments? Sure, well, local governments, counties are an extension of the state. We're actually a direct arm of state government. So anything that affects the state affects the counties just as in a marriage, if one spouse is having a problem, the other spouse is gonna share in that problem because we are, in a sense, we're married to the state. So the funding that comes from the state as part of this marriage, so to speak, if that's affected in any way or their funding mechanism, which would be taxes, excise taxes, income, sales tax, if that's at risk for any reason, then the dollars that come through the state to the county, they're also at risk. And that's what we're seeing now with a governor's budget proposal. The governor's proposal deals with some specific areas where he intends to find the 1.1 billion dollars. Adam, maybe you could describe a little bit some of the key components of his plan on how they would affect Cheboying County. Well, first every local unit of government, whether it's town, city, village, certainly the county, state level, federal level, every unit of government has to establish a budget. And throughout that budget process, there's discussions about priorities and funding levels. And although the county budget is a calendar year, the state budget is a biennial year, so the last budget they passed at August was 2001 through 2003, just passed at last August. As you recognize, Representative Leipholm and Costell and growthmen voted against that budget. And one of the reasons they did was they felt that trouble was on the horizon, that we didn't have the revenue to fulfill the obligations of that state budget. Well, what happened? They were right, and now what we have is a 1.1 billion dollar problem, a deficit or shortfall in the state budget. And as many of our viewers are aware, there's a lot of discussions to address that. Essentially how this 1.1 billion dollar deficit arrived was not because local units of government or the state suddenly spent more money than what was a budget, it. What happened was any time we go through developing a budget, assumptions are derived, as certainly our finance director knows. We make assumptions or estimate, well, how much revenue are we gonna receive? The state did that, and in the end, they're 1.1 billion dollar short. So that's the problem. What are we trying to do about it? Well, the governor has come out with recommendations or key components, as you mentioned, and one of the key components that he's suggesting is eliminating shared revenue. The 1.1 billion dollar deficit in shared revenue locally, that's also 1.1 billion dollars. So at this point, the governor is suggesting to eliminate shared revenue for all local units of government. He suggested it occur over a three-year period. He also has suggested that a cap, an additional cap, be put on local units of government so they can increase their levy each year any more than the CPI, consumer price index. And he's also making some substantial cuts at the state level as well as the university system. So right now, they're looking to reduce expenditures to make up that difference. And as they reduce those expenditures specifically for Sheboygan County, what would the implications be? Well, the implications are very significant as they are for all local units of government. As we looked at his proposal at first, it looked as though shared revenue would be eliminated over a three-year period. Well, for Sheboygan County, that's not the case. It would be this year. We would lose $3.7 million this year in 2002. And we just, or the county board rather, just passed the budget in November. In addition, putting that CPI levy rate or limit or cap on the county is another challenge for us as we go forward. In short, just for salary and wages alone, we have 1,300 employees. Just for salary and wages alone, if we seek to maintain our present level of wage and benefit increases, that comes up to close to $3 million. Well, if the levy cap went into place at CPI, the most revenue that we could generate would be $1 million. So if you combine the $3.7 million of lost shared revenue this year, if you add in that cap, which would mean we'd have about a $2 million shortfall in salary and wage, and then you put in operations, out capital outlay, things of that nature, in short, going into 2003, at this point, we're looking at a $6 million hole based on the governor's present proposal. That's $6 million for 2003, and plus the hit that we would take for 2002. It's the, right, combining 2002, the loss of 3.7 million shared revenue and what we have ahead of us in salary and wage increases, or at least anticipated increases, we're looking at $6 million. Dan, there's been a lot of discussion about the governor's proposal, and the governor's run commercials, and he's given his state of the state earlier this week, and two months ago, or six weeks ago, to be exact, he took a rather strong position about local units of government, and called us big spenders, and also shared how he was leading by example with the cuts that he was making at the state level. One of the things he mentioned is that 60% of all the taxes, all the state revenue that's collected, goes back to local units of government. My question is that true? Is that in fact what's happening, or could you clarify what that piece of the puzzle is? Well, the governor talked about the 60%, and yes, he did call me and my fellow local elected officials, the big spenders. When he looked at his budget, he did say that 60% went to local government, and this is the chart that his office used to come up with that figure, and he shows a big area in red, local government. Local government is 60% of their budget, and then he went on to show its individuals, its to our state operations, university system, and corrections as the rest of the pie, bringing up to 100%. And implying that if there was going to be cuts if there was a billion dollar shortfall, the big piece of the pie was its local governments, and that's where the cuts needed to be. But I think if we look farther at that chart, and split out education, K through 12 education, we'll find that the people that he was calling the big spenders are 15% of the budget. We have 45% of the budget for schools, K through 12, not the university system, that's separate, but K through 12, local governments made up of cities, counties, villages, and towns would be 15% of their budget, and then the rest of the pie would be the same as before, but by breaking out the local governments that he called the big spenders were only 15% of the budget, not 15% of the problem. So 60%, again, when people hear that 60% of all state revenues going back to local units of government actually have that 60%, only 15% is towns, cities, villages, and counties. Correct, and some of the key components to the governor's plan, as I remember them, were that several areas of his budget were untouchable. They were off the table. He was gonna protect those. One area was the elderly, programs for the elderly and the disabled. Another area that he was protecting and was not going to cut would be the school system. So 45% of his budget was immediately taken off the table and he was not going to touch them, yet he included that 45% in where he was claiming the problem was. So what about the governor's point that he's leading by example and that he's made cuts across the board in state operations? What piece of the pie is that? Well, the governor talked about asking local governments to reduce their budgets by approximately 4%. That he was reducing state government by 11%. Well, if you look at the details of his plan, the 11% that he is cutting is 11% of state operations, excuse me, of state operations, which is the blue area, which is only 7% of his total budget. So he's reducing 7% of his budget by 11%, which if you look at that cut for the whole budget, it comes to I've heard different figures. We came up with less than 1%, I've heard a little less than 2%, but it's much less than the 11% that he's talking about. So he's referring to just a small piece of his pie, where when he refers to county government, if I could have that first pie chart back, not the first one. When he looks at county government, he's looking at our total budget. He's looking at all of our budget. He's not just looking at our operations, he's looking at our healthcare centers, which has a lot of pass through monies by both private and Medicaid recipients. He's looking at our health and human services again, which has a lot of pass through money, federal funds, state funds for individuals. He's looking at us cutting 4% of our total budget, not just our operations. So there's a big difference on what he's asking us to do and what he's doing in his own budget. Six weeks ago, when he referred to local units of government as the big spenders and be prepared to hear from local units of government that this is unfair and that may not be the case, you've now clarified to our viewers where the spending is, what are the facts? What piece of the pie or how much is shared revenue contributing to the deficit? Have we been the big spender? Well, shared revenue over the last eight years, I believe it is, has been flat. The monies that we get from the state have remained the same since 95, 96 budget period. This chart will show you where state spending has gone over that same period of time. We look in 95, 96, which is the beginning of this chart and beginning of the window that they took these numbers from. At that time, state government budget was $15 billion, 15 plus, billion dollars. At the same time, shared revenues to counties was down here. It's almost off the chart. It's less than, I'm not even sure what that represents, but let's say one billion or less. That was in 95, 96. As the years went by and their budget increased, it went up to 23 billion, 23, 22 billion in that area. And now what has happened to shared revenue for counties? It's the same place. It hasn't changed at all. So if spending is a problem in his budget, and if that's causing a problem, the spending has increased at the state level and not at the county level, because we're flat. It has not increased. So there's no way that, and to solve the problem, you want to eliminate that. Instead of looking at the rest of his budget, to solve a $1 billion budget that the state has, deficit, they want to put the whole burden right on the counties and local governments. I don't think our viewers can see this chart very well, but it's telling. Again, as you said, since 1995, shared revenue has been flat. There have not been any increases. In fact, the latest increase was in this biennial budget, and that's been eliminated. So since 1995, there has been no increase to shared revenue as our viewers may be able to see or saw earlier. There have been other increases. Tim, if shared revenue is in the problem, where is the problem? Where are we seeing the increases in spending? Well, the big spenders are not at the county level. That's for sure. There is a chart here that shows that. Thanks, Tim. If you look across here, what they have across the bottom is different categories of funding. This would be, all these would be state budget expenditures by category. School Aids is the first one here. And if you look at the two that jump out at you, it's pretty obvious where the dollars are going. School Aids and Corrections, these two. And these bars here represent an average annual percent change over the last 10 years. So for instance, for School Aids, they have an average annual increase per year of 9% in the dollars, the state dollars, that are devoted to School Aids. Corrections is even higher. It's more like 11%, over 11% increase. Total state budget, which would take all these things into account and just average them all together, is over six, probably 7%, 7%. Oh, I'm sorry, 5%, right between there, 5%. So are the big spenders, is it shared revenue causing this problem? Here's shared revenue. Shared revenue and other local assistance is here. The rate of increase is less than 1%. So the problem has not been shared revenue. It's been really, if you want to look at where the big increases have come, it's been School Aids and the correctional area. State operations alone, which is the one that the governor is saying that they're gonna cut by 11.5%. That alone, if you look at that, rose by more than 3% on an average annual basis, far more than shared revenue here. So the big spenders are not at the local level. And I just want to say something on the big spender comment. I personally think that that was the governor's biggest mistake because immediately I think he put all local units of government on the defensive and it was really inaccurate. I read a comment in the local newspaper about an official in another county. I can't remember which one who was offended by the comment and made the statement that their county board deliberated for hours on whether or not to buy a snow blower. And I think that really points out at the local level, people are not careless with dollars. So the column big spenders I think was really inappropriate. I think you have to remind our viewers also that these charts that we're using for the most part have come from the state. These are not numbers that we dreamed up. These are numbers and charts that they use to defend the proposal that they have on the table. And we're just using their charts to show the flaws in their proposal. There's been a lot of turmoil, I guess, as the governor said in the state of the state address recently in regard to his proposal. There have been a lot of discussions, a lot of debate, a lot of finger pointing, a lot of complaints from local governments. Maybe some of the complaints might be characterized as scare tactics. We're gonna cut fire police some rule key components of local government or maybe we can cut some other areas. Sheboyin County does not want to be accused of not participating in a solution, not participating in a debate. We did have some suggestions as to how the state could control this deficit problem. We don't need to get into that now. Some of the specifics of how they could control it, but we would like to talk to our viewers a little bit about how we can come up with some solutions.  Maybe, Adam, you could start and just relate a little bit on what steps Sheboyin County has taken so that we can position ourselves to be more efficient and more accountable to the taxpayers. Sure, thank you, Dan. The next slide, please, Tim. Thank you. Sheboyin County will be part of the solution. The executive committee and leadership on the county board has made there real clear and I've been very gratified by the response of our department heads throughout Sheboyin County. I don't know if our viewers are gonna be able to see the next slide very well. There's a lot of information here, but if we can get to the slide, please. In short, what this shows, and I can see that, it's not gonna be very visible to our viewers, but it shows all of the departments we have. We have 23 departments, as the chairman mentioned earlier, and then a number of other areas that are part of the pie. And what we did very shortly after the governor made his proposal six weeks ago, is sent out a letter to all the department heads asking them to come up with thoughtful recommendations. If the governor's proposal goes through as is, what would you suggest be done to make reductions? So we challenged every department to come up with a 3.38% reduction. And I'm very pleased in the response. All the departments, except for one, came through with some specific suggestions and recommendations as to how they could make those cuts. So we are now positioned to respond if the governor's proposal goes through. And again, you can probably go off the slide now. But if you could see the total, as I mentioned earlier, we have $3.7 million of shared revenue at stake. That's what we would lose this year if the governor's proposal goes through. What we've received from department heads are thoughtful suggestions to, in fact, reduce expenditures. Reduce expenditures so we come up to close to $3.7 million in savings. Yes, certainly they're looking at other revenue streams, but the focus has been, and that's been a clear direction from our county board chairman, is to look at reducing expenditures. The other part of the equation in plans and preparation is the county board recently took pro-action on how we're gonna respond. The county board put in a hiring freeze. In fact, three of them. One, on hiring any new employees. That's when a vacancy becomes available that that position is froze. They put a freeze on any capital outlay expenditures. And we've also put a freeze on out-of-state travel. The key one is the hiring freeze. By freezing vacant positions as people retire or move to other positions, that could garner us as much as $1 million of savings. And the longer that's in the place, the more savings that we're going to incur. So that's positioned us again as to respond to the governor's proposal no matter what comes through. It's very likely, and I'm sure most of our viewers appreciate that the governor's proposal won't come through as is. But we are fully prepared to respond to it if it does. And if it comes, if some type of compromise comes from the legislature, we're again positioned to make the reductions and expenditures to respond to that. I think we also have to acknowledge the fact that even though we don't like the governor's proposal, it has brought a discussion throughout the state as to ways we can economize, ways that we can consolidate. We need to be talking with the city of Shebaugin. We need to be talking with the townships and the villages on ways that the different levels of government in Shebaugin County can work together to bring savings for the taxpayers. That's the bottom line, is bringing efficient government and cost-efficient and good services to the taxpayers of not only Shebaugin County, but all of the state. During this discussion, you mentioned earlier some of the local representatives that voted not necessarily for the governor's present budget, but what has been the reaction of our local legislators to the problem that we're in right now? I've been very impressed with Representative Steve Castell, Representative Joe Leipan, Representative Glenn Grothman, Senator Jim Baumgart. They've all been very receptive to listening, to being active in the community, on holding listening sessions, and gaining a better awareness of what this is gonna mean for Shebaugin County as well as the city of Shebaugin and all the towns and municipalities. So, as certainly the chairman's well aware, with the three of us and others have been meeting with him and checking him with him on a regular basis, sharing information. And I have nothing but compliments for the work and how receptive they've been to listen and learn and help us as we go forward. As we're taping this show, just in the past 24 hours, the joint finance committee has come with a different proposal than the governor's proposal to deal with the deficit. And there's a process that takes place, similar to the budget process that they take place every two years. Last fall, they passed the budget. Maybe, Adam, you could just fill our viewers in a little bit on the process that's going to take place and when we might be able to expect a solution to this problem. Well, Dan, as you mentioned, the joint finance committee, which is made up of assembly members and senate members, has been working now on a compromise or refining the governor's proposal to make it stronger or to improve upon it. And just yesterday, they came up with a package and they forwarded it back to the assembly. And it does make some changes to the shared revenue. It still is seeking to eliminate shared revenue, but as the governor first proposed, have that occur over a three year period and not take all of the hit this first year. But in short, as for the timetable, the assembly now has this package. It's very likely they'll have modifications to it. They'll make amendments. They'll forward that onto the senate. The senate then, I'm sure, has plans or suggestions on how they should best be addressed. They'll make modifications and in all likelihood, a conference committee will be convened. That conference committee will have some of the key leadership from the assembly and the senate together.  There's no more amendments after that. After that vote, it's referred onto the governor and the governor has, without question, one of the strongest veto pens in the nation. So, again, for people to be of the mindset that, well, what the governor's proposing may not be successful or we'll see something completely different is unlikely because in the end, he has the strongest veto authority and he'll be the final decision maker. I think another thing we can be assured of and throughout our discussions with the local legislators and also some of the people in Madison that we've been talking to is that down the road, maybe not 2002, maybe not as much in 2003, but down the road, there will be some changes to short revenue and there will be some changes on how funding comes to local governments. So I think the discussion, the discussions we're having right now with our department heads, we're not gonna put these proposals on a table two months from now when we have a problem and it doesn't involve us now, we're gonna have to take a long hard look at some of these proposals and see what parts of them we can benefit the taxpayers from in the future. So as painful as this process is, it's not totally going to go away and we have to deal with it. So I appreciate the work of Tim, our finance director, Adam, the administrative coordinator, our department heads, everybody's pulling together and hopefully we can continue to provide the services to Sheboygan County that they've come to expect. As of this time, we have nothing on tap for next month as far as a speaker or a guest. Our phone number is 459-3103, 459-3103. If any of our viewers have any suggestions, give us a call and we'll glad to listen to your request. Thank you.


Well let's start with thinking differently about success because obviously the book is rethinking success and success is a very loaded term and it's very subjective and I think many of us may have the wrong message from media and others around what success is and what in your mind is wrong about the current definition of success and why do we need to rethink it? I think AG, this whole notion of what success is, I think so much of what we've kind of accessed from the way we grew up and our culture is a flawed view and the view is never enough. It's like if it's money, how much is really enough? If it's prestige, how much is enough? If it's beauty, how do you stay beautiful? I mean it just seems like these are inadequate definitions that end up in the same place where you end up lonely and disconnected and so my thought was so many of these definitions have to do with your external world. The only definition that really is sustainable in my judgment is a soulish definition, one that really speaks to who you are in your meaning life and I really contrast the two between meaning and happiness because happiness is these externals. I achieve this, my kid got into a good college, I've got a raise, I've got a great girlfriend, all great but they all are fleeting and they all can change when you get that pathology report. Meaning by contrast is much deeper. It's a narrative that's a part of who you are. It's the idea of Victor Franco in Man's Search for Meaning when he says the people that survived in the death camps were not the physically robust but those who had an interior life of meaning. Someday I'm going to meet that grandchild, someday I'm going to play the violin again. These are the things that we and frankly in this COVID moment we can start investing in because at least we say we don't have time to invest in those things. The classical music, the meditation, reading good books, these are the things that develop the meaning structure of one's life, learning to meditate, pray, forgive. These are all these things that people would say they're important but they are as important as me killing it at work, me spending another hour doing this. Now you have the time. It's revealing who people really are. It was beautifully said because I think many of us struggle with the fact that we're in this constant cycle of competition and measuring up and everything that you just described. It can't be measured externally. It's internal. I can't measure you by the number of books you read or what you're wrestling with internally but instead I'm measuring you by likes and followers and how much you have in your bank account and what you drive and what you wear and it's just steered us so far off course from that fulfilling life that we all are looking for. You're absolutely right A.J. and it's funny I interviewed somebody last week his name is Dr. Michael Rich up at Harvard. He has the only medical clinic in America that focuses just on issues related medical issues related to technology really interesting and he was talking about how many of these young particularly young men and women that aren't even in their teens yet have projected or persona and they are begging their parents that to get plastic surgery at an age of 11 and 12 and 13 and 14 because now the reality of who they are is not matching the persona they created and and you're just saying where in the hell does that go in 10 years 15 years how do you have a relationship a real relationship when everything is fraudulent everything is not as as projected and so I'm I'm I'm really worried about it just seems like this is a perfect storm to create greater unhappiness the suicide rate the CD according to CDC since COVID started 25% of teenagers say they seriously contemplated taking their lives that's crazy and you know you just say what is going on here we this cultural moment with all of the affluence with all the opportunities with everything we have access to it's not making us more content it's not bringing us greater fulfillment it's actually doing the opposite there has been a lot of studies showing that just with the advent in the and how how many folks are now and how young everyone is exposed to using smartphones and now adopting this other society that they're living in that the suicide rates have have skyrocketed yeah especially for young for for young girls and but for for everyone across the board and but it also sets up these expectations of well I'll do this after I do this right so an example you mentioned with plastic surgery well you know I'd be happy to do this after I get my nose job I'll be happy to do this after I lose this much weight yeah you're now setting up life that will be started once these things happen we're in the past you you went out and played at the park regardless if you had the nose job or how much you ate or what it was it was you had to deal with it and there was life lessons around accepting who you were to be able to connect to the other children around you rather than setting up expectations that certain things need to be met before you go and socialize before you start this new project Johnny I love what you're saying and an example that is the playground so if you go when I was growing up where I learned so many of life skills was playing pick up basketball on Saturdays if you were a jerk you didn't need an adult to come in they dealt with you your peers dealt with you what's interesting you go up to most elementary schools there's still the basketball hoops but nobody's there and because parents are afraid of kidnapping I mean 50 other reasons why oh we can't allow this this to go on and so as a result everything becomes an authoritarian is teaching you how to behave and how to live and coaching your team and doing all this kind of stuff and the whole notion of an amateur of experimenting of imagination of all these things we we learn when we're bored and have to figure out life they're not going on they're not going on and and that troubles me tremendously for the future for kids you know in the book you bring up an excellent point which it's it's not just us slagging on the younger generations it's not to sound like boomers or doomers even successful CEOs at the top right now are feeling lonely disconnected struggling even though outwardly they have all the trappings of success and and we coach these clients who are literally at the top of major corporations but have no friends no one that they can just go out and socialize with and they're surrounded by their co-workers and the people that work for them who are paid to give them a certain response and treat them a certain way but they don't have the deeper relationships that drive meaning you're absolutely right a day and it's interesting I cite an ink study in there a few years back and I think it's even worse but it said out of 3 000 CEOs that were interviewed half of them self reported that they were lonely and disconnected of that half 67 percent said there's nobody in my life I trust now in any other realm if you had a stat that strong you'd say wow that's a leadership crisis but because it's in this weird area of loneliness we kind of say well don't understand that but we walk away from it but it's it's tragic and I'd say I tell my MBA classes this because yeah I've met in women in there I say guys you have a particular problem in this area you were taught from a young age not to not to communicate or be in touch with things of the heart so you've learned a certain way of of not connecting in a way of associating so you play golf you do sports you go to a music venue but you're not ever really talking and women sit down if you ever eavesdrop which I've done a lot you'll see three women walking you eavesdrop they're talking about stuff that really matters they're really comfortable in this space so I I say to my class this might be the last chance you have to learn a language of the heart it's awkward it's uncomfortable it's out of your comfort zone but if you don't learn that you're going to be another another casualty of another lonely man that that wonders how they got here and so so it's it's vital and I also tell my class that the stats say between 30 and 45 you start shedding relationships and it's because life takes over you're busy and all that so you've got to figure out what matters to you and just to stay connected to some a few people the first day of my MBA class I think was three years ago where I I I tell them the first day of class is I said your point of identity with everybody in this class is not how smart you are how accomplished but your weakness we're all broken we're all frauds on levels that are unimaginable so this guy on the front row says professor I've been trying to get in this class for a long time finally in so I'm going to be all in he said I had a debilitating stutter in my whole life which made me live in the shadows but it's very strong academically didn't have any friends go off to college sophomore year decided I'm going to take my life because you know my life's empty I have no one that cares about me or I care about before I do that I'm going to go out and try to have a couple conversations and tell people how screwed up I am and try to talk and they're just going to ridicule me this will reinforce how messed up I am and then it's going to be all over anyway so he's telling us this the first five minutes of class and he says I said well what happened to Clark he said well two things the more I started to share the less I stuttered and second people started telling me about their weak areas where they were broken where they were needy and then he paused like for dramatic effects and guess what else professor I said what else Clark he said I'm the student body president my MBA class I have to give speeches all the time so I being the smart ass that I am I said okay Clark and this is the class of winners you Clark is obviously a loser so we're going to take a break and probably a lot of you want to transfer out of this course because who would want to be with somebody like Clark and so so I said how many you want to transfer out nobody of course raised their hand I said how many of you feel safer because of what Clark shared they all raised their hand I said if you learn nothing else in this class this is the game changer this is it your point of identity is not what you think it is it's on a different level it's your weakness you know this brings up a point that you a stat that you brought up from John Gottman that's stuck out to me and I don't know if I run into this one before however in our classrooms and separating what you think is going on and what actually is going on this this stat really hit it home where it it takes five good interactions to offset one bad interaction isn't that stunning and now I've always been in our classrooms I've talked about if you're going to criticize yourself at least give yourself uh equal equal that skill never let that skill tip and but this is like we need to stack the good to beat out we need to stack it and he says he he he does this he said he can sit with someone in an hour a couple and he can tell you in a one hour interaction he can find out if they're gonna make it and so much of it has to do with this but I was thinking that is really hard to do you know to really invest emotionally and and this comes to something else I mentioned in the book this idea of catching people doing the right thing you know the way most of us grew up is oh Joe you left your shoes out oh my gosh you're so messy this but to have the same emotional energy hey Johnny come in here I need to talk to you guess what Johnny I just want to tell you I love the questions you ask around the dinner table they are so killer who does that none of us do it because we're we've been so programed to find fault so we think with our significant others if I just straighten her out one or two more times then saw she's gonna like that or he's gonna like that that program doesn't work we've all tried that a point made in the book that I think is so powerful and I've been working on myself as this concept of forgiveness it's the same thing you know we we judge others harshly and then we we never actually come back around and let them off the hook so we're judging ourselves hard and we don't practice forgiveness enough and as you talk about that is really the key to that fulfilling life we are all going to fail we are all going to make mistakes and they're with the best intentions very very very few people unless they are wired wrong or have major mental issues are trying to hurt you they're trying to do the best of the tools that they have and they are going to step on your toes they are going to say things out of off turn they are going to hurt you not purposefully we need to practice and cultivate forgiveness and others to open the door to more of these connections and when we talk to clients you know they write people off so quickly they look for these faults whether it's in their dating life or their social life or even when they're looking for a job and then they wonder why they're sitting there stewing in this unhappiness and this lack of success that they're after and I think that's a powerful message from Jesus is that idea of forgiveness regardless of how religious you are yeah forgive as you have been forgiven I think a lot of us you remember in this book by C. S. Lewis the Oxford scholar he said he said you know I've always been taught that you're supposed to forgive as you've been forgiven then he said that I realized there was somebody that I always had no problem forgiving um when when he did wrong doing it he said it was myself I always gave myself the benefit of the doubt but nobody else out there but but but this forgiveness thing is something but but AJ this goes back I think to the story we were born into and and you know if you want to understand so much about yourself uh you know I say to people a lot of time how many of you in this room grew up with raging angry families and I'd say about half of them do that I said I'm just going to tell you not to scare you but this is going to be your narrative unless you honestly look at that and pivot find a way to pivot because what you have seen is what you emulate modeling I don't care what your parents told you to do what they live is what you're going to model I don't think there's enough attention to be put on what healthy relationships look like and when I think about where could you see examples of that nothing pops into my mind you you have to you have to go out and and search of what that is and it's it's just not prevalent I guess maybe it doesn't warrant the attention as dysfunction warrants uh dysfunction brings attention whether you want it or not but but healthy relationships I guess they seem kind of boring so no one wants to exploit that but but if everything around us is set up to get that attention then that's what the dysfunction is what's going to seem normal yeah more familiar and that's what we've seen so much of the time and we're surrounded by it and you're right you're right if you look at that Johnny and you say if you said to me Doug name 10 really great relationships couples I could maybe come up with a few but it's going to take me some time and that's kind of sad I'm a member of a men's group that I host uh every Monday here at my place and just last night we were talking about this exact thing around the definition of love and and what a healthy fulfilling relationship is and it's not the avoidance of conflict it's not smooth sailing which is what unfortunately many of us view as healthy relationships but it's actually what you do after the conflict after something has slighted the other person where there's a difference of opinions or perspectives or someone's behavior has hurt someone else it's in those moments after how do you come back together how do you solve that as a team how do you stay committed to the relationship that you've built not to your identity and who's right or wrong in these situations but we don't have that modeling in culture we don't have that in movies we don't see that on tv we're not seeing it in politics as we know we're just not seeing it anywhere so we don't have that frame of reference and we always resort back to okay well I have to portray outwardly that everything is going well otherwise I don't look successful otherwise other people aren't going to judge me as successful and you talk about we need to find our own story but part of this is also pushing back on what other people are telling us is our story right so your parents have a story for you your friends your peers have a story for you it may not be the right one and I know many in our audience feel that way so what is your advice to not only find your own story but to push back and say no to the stories that others envision for us first step it seems like when you're lost in the woods is to declare that you're lost and I think first is to say what are those things that are shaping me what are the messages that in my in my among my friends among my family that I get get more education because like I remember in my my class a lot of the southeast asian people in my students in my class what's really valued as to be a professional an engineer a doctor I had one guy this father would not talk to him because he went to get an MBA and not a medical degree he said what do I do I said you've got a choice you could live your father's story or your story I said it might take some time for this to get back on track but do you want to really live his story your whole life so I would say you know it's it's like I think it was EE Cummings that said to to be yourself in the world that's teaching you every day to be something other than yourself is the bravest thing any of us could ever do so it takes bravery so I'd say number one it takes bravery number two I think to spend time every day and reset and say what are the messages that I'm going to be getting and are they valid worthy of me embracing as if they're true I think a lot of people don't that's why I I say we all have to have a meditative practice where it you step back and you pause and you say you know these people what they're saying to me it sounds good but is that really who I am so I think you need to have your own voice you know it's it's an interesting thing you know there's a lot of literature you know a great book Lonely Crowd by David Reisman who was up at Harvard talks about you know they're these audiences that we all buy into if you're a Hasidic Jew and live in Williamsburg Brooklyn 90% of your life's already circumscribed how you dress what you believe who you marry how you think and same with Quakers Mormons all these different things so you have to decide who is your audience and I love I think it's I think it's the Quakers had the best formulation I know they said we should live the pleasing audience of one now when you interpret that as God or yourself to say at the end of the day the most evolved version of me has to be to say I'm okay with that I'm a fourth grade teacher you're an eye banker and I'm okay with being a fourth grade teacher I have come to peace with that because I've done the work and you've got to do the work of reading thinking meditating counseling whatever it takes so that you are really comfortable in your skin because if you're not you're going to be more of a reflector of others what do you want me to be and that's that's the culture we're in on steroids that you look at the political the broken political culture you're saying anybody have the guts to step up and say this is wrong but sadly they don't have the interior fortitude to do it and there's there's a piece there where because they're they're looked at by a crowd that they're trying to please there's this idea that if I just do this well enough I'll eventually fall in line but you're constantly going to be fighting your inner self for the rest of your life I've been in a room we've been running programs for 15 years AJ and I have been in rooms where all of a sudden a 30 year old young man or a 25 year old young man realizes the point where they accept that they have been living somebody else's life now there's once that hits the walls of reality come crashing down there's a moment of panic but it's listen we're now going to make take steps towards you living for for yourself and every day after this that you do this gets better than the day before I love that that's fantastic it's a magical moment but it's terrifying and that's the thing about it it in in my sharing my story in class my my dad was a blue collar guy didn't go to college very important to him that I don't not only went to college but he wanted me to become a doctor I got into graduate school working on cancer biology phd and I just knew it was not for me and every day going to the lab I knew more and more I did not want to do this I was living someone else's dream and there was not some epiphany there was not the heavens parting and angels saying AJ you need to do this I just selfishly said I I'm done that's enough and I dropped out and started this company and guys in the room when they hear that story they're they're wrestling with these same things but they just don't have the courage to break those change of others expectations of them and others definition of success and they need to hear from more people who've done that who've liberated themselves from this mindset to find it in yourself and that's where the fulfillment comes from because the choice is now mine it's not my dad's choice it's not my classmates choice it's not my professor's choice of how my life is going to go now it's mine and when you take that responsibility and that choice back well that opens the door to this fulfillment that everyone is wrestling with well imagine living in the being no person that every day you get to be the best person that you want to be rather than trying to figure out how to be the best person that somebody else yeah that is really important and you know the way this starts it's really interesting uh I asked people sometime this question I said when do you ever remember a time in your life where you stood alone because my take on successful bright people is they all want optionality they never it's like these senators today they know things are wrong but they never want to draw the line because someday I might need this and that so they never draw a line and I I feel like one of the most powerful things we can do for ourselves or our children is to say there are certain times when you've got to say on principle no I will not do this sadly it took me till I was about 19 before I did it that I recall for the first time ever up to that point I just was a total suck up and just did whatever you know successful people did but I I finally had to decide who am I and it was a great choice a hard choice and so I think all of us um there has to be that moment and I think sadly a lot of people never know that the other thing I'd say is life is really short and you got to decide you know most people spend their life preparing to live and never living and it's almost like I saw it at Goldman Sachs I had all these people that would say god you've done so many cool things when you're a diplomat and all this he said they all said the same thing when I make a lot of money someday I'm going to go do that here's the problem with that narrative you are becoming something every day so when you finally get to that that you know imaginary point where you have the freedom to do that you don't know what the hell to do you don't you forgot any any high-minded purpose you had for your life and the other is so comfortable because you've done it for so long we're becoming something every day we need to integrate these worlds we need to find out what does it mean to be a school teacher and be alive and really thrive what does it mean to be a banker and to be alive you know there's this great story told about um this this woman in New York she was the art critic for the New York time she was getting a new um dishwasher put in her apartment in New York so the the plumber comes up and she looks at him and says uh you know has anybody ever told you you have a resemblance to this epic kind of one of the great composers of our time Philip Glass the the composer and he says well I am Philip Glass but I'm Philip Glass the plumber and he said he said you know I love working with my hands I'm a plumber but also I'm pretty good at creating music and I still do this sometimes it keeps me grounded and it's really funny a lot of people did this you know a lot of authors a lot of people uh you know who who really did you know did their craft whether it was being a lawyer whatever it was and did their artistic thing on the side so I I say to people um and and Johnny you'll appreciate this as a musician I draw two circles I said circle one over here are the things you've got to do you got to pay the rent you've got to eat you got to do all this so you put all those over here that's probably call the job whatever it is to get cash to do that then the other circle is what makes you come alive creating music you know writing poetry playing the classical piano I don't know what is in that circle I said there are two circles now some of you and I say this to my class all the time I ask them how many of you had something you absolutely loved when you were up till you're 25 they all raised their hand what was it I was I love writing poetry I love composing music I love mountain climbing they all had something I said how many of you are still doing it three out of 40 the problem is in these two circles they have we're in a world with the American Idol if I'm a musician I can't just love music because I love it I have to have a a big record deal I have to do all this stuff so I say to them do the stuff to make a living keep pursuing one or two of your passions if you're lucky they might overlap and guess what maybe you can get paid for what you do and what you love my two oldest boys are fortunate because they get paid to do what they love but it's not a sure thing and I just say to people don't stop playing the guitar because you're you're not going to win American Idol just if you love the guitar keep playing it I can't say how many I can't count the number of times people ask me when I'm going to grow up and I and I first of all it's always what do you mean by that they're like well you know they're going out to the clubs playing in bands like who why wouldn't I like I can't imagine my life without that and I can and there's going to be a time when I'm unable to perform at the level that I want to and there's going to also be a time where people are not going to want to come out to see me perform at that level and until either of those things happen I'm going to continue playing music because of how much joy perspective fulfillment that that it gives me in my everyday life that is I love what you're saying Johnny and I feel like again that comes back to bravery it's learning to be you and you all these voices that are coming at us trying to make it's almost like you have 50 people that are miserable saying hey Johnny come on man be miserable and grown up like us it's exactly what it's it's the craziest crap I've ever seen it's almost like it's a threat to people when somebody's fully alive so that's what but you have to be brave the other thing I feel like Johnny you have to have one or two people in your life they're there for you to believe in you and what you're doing and understand the quirkiness and the craziness and they aren't threatened by it but so many people don't like differences because it's threatening to them differences are threatening absolutely the unknown getting outside of our comfort zone is threatening and we've cocooned ourselves in this vision of of comfort but it again as we talk about success that's not found in your comfort zone that's not found in retreating that's not found in giving up on these things that really matter to you now you bring up an interesting point with the the circles because many people have heard this advice you can find it everywhere on social media a lot of people are touting it you just have to find your passion and then everything else works and you mentioned it that is that is so lucky that if you just sit there waiting to monetize your passion your whole life is going to pass before your eyes very few people are fortunate enough to do that for their entire lives there will be moments when those circles overlap and you should celebrate them and love every second of it and realize there are going to be moments when those circles are completely separate and that's okay too but we've been sold this dream of like this is your passion pursue your passion and many people listening to us are like well these guys are doing their passion guess what doing my taxes that's not my passion there are a lot of things that go along in that circle of paying your rent that are not defined as passion and if you are constantly setting passion is north on your compass you're going to be steered off the map and you're going to struggle to really find where that fulfillment lies it's doing the tough stuff it's doing the stuff you don't want to do that is real truth what you're saying and i i blame parents like me where we thought we were doing the right thing by saying you know i've got one son it was a division one golfer and all that oh you could be you can win the tour you could be number one in the world all this kind of stuff and you're saying really what what are we setting people up for so i i think i came to it the hard way with these two circles understanding that you can have your passion but you don't have to necessarily get paid to do your passion what's wrong with that but i think these instant success shows and all the stuff is almost creating the wrong thing it's like i show up one day and i win and i have the biggest record deal i'm a monthly millionaire it's easy it ain't easy yeah i live in la johnny used to live in la and we even see this with influencers and and you know youtube stars and creators that there's a lot that goes into creating that's not fun that's not passion driven and caring about views and all the other stuff that goes along with it but again the representation online that we get that snapshot that brief moment we ascribe to success we fantasize and fantasize this idea of passion equals a life fulfilled it's about creating space for your passion but not relying solely on passion to be that motivator or driver i can see my mba students almost relieved because they say wow okay this is a different way of thinking about it now i have true optionality because i can really take a normal job but i don't have to give up on this i don't have to die to what everything that may that i loved in my life it sounds like you've been unchaining your students the way we've been unchaining our clients to these ridiculous expectations and a way forward that that allows them to find fulfillment in ways that they've never been privy to or didn't even realize that we're there and you've brought up religion multiple times in the book and for whatever reason it just gets such a bad rap and but everything that you're gonna see in a secular way of meditating or gratitude practice these have been religious staples for every religion thought of time so you either take it with the religion or you take it without but these are fundamental blocks in for your fulfillment regardless of how you want to look at it yeah johnny i always say to people the ingredients to the stew of meaning are knowable these aren't brain times and i i take a group of ceo's every year to a monastery with it where they chant and i'd say half of the people are not at all religious but i just said look this is a timeless thing that's been going on for thousands of years it'll change your life because it stills you you start thinking about the numinous and what really matters and they've nailed something really powerful so you know it's like and i and i i give them a little notebook with all blank for them to take notes but i have a quote by pascal as they open it and his 1666 unfinished book called ponce is in friendship means thoughts and he said this the fundamental problem of a person is never learning to be alone within four walls and you think about it with social media it is a big deal when i ask my mba class leave all your technology here everything and for one hour just go off by yourself and think oh my god and i said now when you come back i want to spend a half hour and record what feelings did you have anxiety oh my god i miss it out what's the thing that's astonishing to me creating the space and you you brought up a concept a little earlier that i want to talk about because a lot of people talk about work life balance and trying to figure that out and you mentioned the the book the silo effect and silos and and how do we break through all of this and create that integrated life and what does that even mean for those in our audience who've never heard it put that way yeah you know uh this this notion of a balanced life i just think it's a bunch of bs i don't buy it at all but here's what i do believe i believe there are seasons in your life and seasons there are some seasons when you're all in some season not so much and so when i was on the white house staff if you left at nine at night people would kid you and so you're working a half day now that's okay for a season if you do that for two two and a half years you can sustain it but if in 40 years you're doing that that's not a good that's not sustainable but if i would have said to them okay guys uh i'm gonna go work out at five i'm gonna do this they're gonna say great go get another job that's good but i think you've just got to do that and the in the whole family has to be on board with that i think that's the problem a lot of times that you know you when i went up to new york and i knew how busy it was going to be my wife and i had to say are we on the same page this is going to be our life for a while but are we willing are we are we in this together or not if we're not let's not do it if we are let's own it together i have to say that makes all the sense in the world and is much more natural than trying to figure out this balance and to be aware of it to know we're going to be this is a full season we're going to get into it for at least the next six months is everyone prepared for what is going to happen that is wonderful when you started this company aj you didn't say well you know i think i'll spend a couple hours every day you either it's like i i gotta make this work i don't know how the hell it's gonna work i'm putting everything on the line plus eyes are looking at me saying cat you gave up a promising career as a medical researcher to do what and so you're like hey guys i think i'm gonna be all in and try this might fail but in because i didn't work well i just have to say and even looking at this company through that lens of seasons that makes all the the sense in the world and because of covid and some new things that we have going on aj and i are having a season where we're we're full in yeah and but and it's wonderful but that is a that is such a healthier lens to to look at it and sometimes there's not going to be as much going on you're looking to create some momentum you are trying different things you're taking a step back to say look but the minute you you grab the minute there's momentum you want to ride that so it's absolutely and not feel bad about it right to feel good it's an important message because so many people have bought into that and they're chasing that and it's a false god it's not worth chasing i mean i've never met anybody that has a work like balance that's full stop for openers and i will say there's been a few people that we've interviewed who i just loved who had great energy and now they're in their middle age and they're 50 years old they're looking at each day of winning the day of maximizing their fun and well-being and trying to incorporate because they've realized that everything else that they've tried in their life as successful as they are and have been they weren't and they were not happy yeah absolutely the happiness research shows that if you can tap into that purpose you can invest in quality relationships and you move your body that's the bulk of the battle it's not chasing this little hit of dopamine and trying to reinvent the wheel again it's the same ingredients to the stew the stew of happiness is move your body invest in relationships and when i say invest warts and all don't just show them your social media feed don't just pretend that you're this guy who has it or gal who has it all together but be real with people and don't be afraid of sharing that vulnerability and the third of is you gotta dig deeper to that purpose and we all have it in us but many of us stop searching and just go well my dad said this and oh my peers are doing this and i can't start a business until i have the mba and and we make all these excuses and roadblocks to finding that real purpose totally agree totally agree so it's almost like uh what we need to do i think one of you mentioned this is elevate people that are thinking differently that's by definition they're more maverick and that gives the rest of us permission you know it was funny always the court the court gesture would always say that the things everybody was thinking to the king and the king would accept him from him because he was just a fool and would do it but it almost liberated everybody and said you know he just told the king and he's fat we could all have a laugh yeah i'll laugh because they said you know we all are thinking this stuff but nobody has the courage to do it this is why i i am a great believer in being in a small group in some way you know when people start sharing their challenges and where they are it might not be the same problem you have but the fact that someone is being vulnerable you say that's where we connect on our our common humanity our common frailty and you leave feeling wow we all it's almost like this great book by henry nowan wasn't a great book but the title was terrific henry nowan wrote this book called the wounded healer and i love that he said we're all wounded but we're all capable of being healers in each other's lives and i think you know what people want is not advice they want you to be real because that's the connecting tissue and i think when you pivot and and say okay so what kind of leaders do we need today i'd say people don't want perfect leaders they want authentic leaders they want people that are real you know i love church show oh my i'm reading the splendid in the vial right now and what a character i mean there was no about him was normal he had bipolar he called it the black plague i mean he was just out there drank a bottle of paul roger champagne before noon was in his pajamas most of the day but he was honest with the british people he said i don't know if we're at the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning and this little pinprick of an island stood against the mighty nazi regime because one person believed the counter narrative everyone else said appeasement give in that doesn't matter and this is the kind of leaders we need and this is what we don't have today let's wrap with the challenge for our audience because we are trying to build better leaders on the show what challenge do you have for our audience this week to engage in those core values to help them maybe find that purpose or just to take a different look at success to unlock something in themselves i would say there's a couple things you could do very practically i'd say one decide for five days out of the next seven to take two minutes and just be still with no technology in your hand but just hear yourself breathe i would say that's one two if you aren't an exerciser don't start i remember one time my son went to see this trainer and it was like 40 exercises listed i said this will never happen if you haven't been an exerciser i think aj said it about move walk around the block don't walk don't sign up for a marathon don't start lifting weights don't start running for three miles walk for two minutes around the block i'm a great believer in celebrating success building on the small things if you're if you're drinking a bottle of wine a night you don't think that's working for you okay don't give it all up you know just decide two nights of the week i'm not going to have anything so insinuate certain practices into your routine and you'll start to see behavior change and it'll start feeling better and so i'd say little things like that the last thing i would say would be gratitude maybe while you have that two minutes you're still for two minutes and then you have an index card and you write down two quick things you're grateful for i just had a dark roast cup of Italian coffee the sun shining in LA today there's no fires whatever it is you write them down period neuroscientists tell us it changes the the brain chemistry when we do that so those little things creating space walking around the block writing down two things you're grateful for and then you know with the drinking or whatever you do try to insinuate a little time when you don't do as much but don't don't get crazy and most people i've never i've never met somebody that says to me duck i want to tell you this is a great day i just finished a diet nobody finishes a diet everybody starts a diet my view is do something for about three days and then freaking celebrate it it's so important and we we practice this with our clients and our x-factor mentorship every single session starts off with wins and it doesn't matter how small they are because as johnny said earlier we're always tipping the scale and the critical we're always adding the things we should be doing we could be doing we aren't doing we're never adding to the other side of the scale the positive momentum that neuroscience says we have to rewire our brain and it's baby steps to do it you're not going to rewire your brain overnight but doing those small practices over time lead to that greater success just like a diet you just you don't stop going oh i've rewired it i'm good now no this is a i practice that if you want these results you have to continue and put these in your life that you're doing for the rest of your life your diet is something that you are happy about that keeps you feeling good and active and have tons of energy and then you roll with that to the rest of your life and you make adjustments as needed these mindsets work in the same way you just don't rewire things you stop and you and you're good to go no your brain is wired one way we're working on exercises and practices that help it fire in a way that helps and supports and encourages and fulfills you rather than one leaving you feeling empty and anxiety-ridden that that's well said well said and and it starts small just just build one one brick at a time but it's almost like you think of other practice in your life there's this thing called stacking where you might say something you're already doing every day let's say you're brushing your teeth two times a day okay stack so in other words maybe you do five push-ups when you brush your teeth in the morning not not a whole weight training program you just do them and guess what you're going to start feeling a little bit tighter and it feels that's kind of feels good hey i'm going to brush my teeth tomorrow so so just things you're already doing that are unconscious make other things unconscious eventually absolutely one last question for you Doug before we jump we love asking every guest of ours what their x factor is and we believe everyone has unique x factor it's when a mindset unlocks a skill set that makes you extraordinary what do you think your x factor is that's a good question i think i've been fearless i've never been qualified for anything but i've done it so often that i'll show up any place and figure it out so this is a great example i'll never forget i made a documentary uh it was we did it on for w gbh um with the harvard psychiatrist that did this but i get a call from the me people right and they asked me to be a judge i know nothing about this world but did i say tell them all the reasons why i said hell no i so i show up there four of us watched movies all day we decided who got the enemies in this category and i'm like this is crazy but yes this is a story in my life and i kind of love it that that i just said i'm gonna try to really do the best i can here but it was a blast i never feel qualified for anything i know so many people who are so qualified but they they talk to themselves nonstop their fears dictate how they live their life the worst you can do is fail and who cares exactly there's a good story to be had either way yeah exactly the book is rethinking success is there anywhere you'd like our audience to visit or check out uh we i've got a landing page it's www.dugholiday has a lot of interviews and craziness like this the book you can get on amazon i guess or any of those places uh harper collins published it and you know it's a pleasure to be with you guys uh i just want to say for your audience these guys are doing something really important you're talking about the things everyone thinks about nonstop but they never talk about it we got to get it out of the closet and say it's okay to talk about what really matters absolutely thank you so much dawg we appreciate it love you guys success with the launch


Let me just jump in here, first of all because I've sat there for a long time playing extremely bad chess, and secondly because I still don't understand what we're actually talking about. When I say je suis européen, then I mean really, if I'm honest, a feeling. I feel at home under European sky, I feel at home with the landscapes, with the reflexes of the people, with the turns of phrase, I also feel at home with European values. And as a philosopher, no I cannot give you an ultimate metaphysical nail to which I could nail them, but I feel at home with them. Now that is one part of the conversation. If we talk about the European Union and debt repayments, then I'm, first of all, I think much more pragmatic because I think without the European Union we would probably not be able to solve or indeed face any of the problems that come our way in terms of climate change, international money markets, migration movements, they're all transnational problems, no nation state can deal with them, so we need this kind of thing. But you say there really is a European spirit. And that is because you're talking about an elite. There is no real European spirit among all Europeans because this European Union is in a terrible crisis of political legitimacy. It has none. It has not worked for it. That has been too elitist. Look at this ridiculous moment with the European constitution when basically a former French president was asked to draw up a nice constitution which was almost the 200 pages long and very complex and then people were given the choice between saying yes or being bad Europeans. And if you voted wrong you had to vote again until you voted right. And that's not how any democracy works. We could have voted a constitutional assembly and let them get on with it and draw up a constitution that would have been our constitution, that would have been remotely democratic. So I think we're really talking about two completely different things because when I go back to the first part, the feeling European part, then I'm not at all sure whether Norwegians and Greeks and Portuguese and Poles feel the same. In their practices, in their daily life, in their beliefs, how much really does connect us? I think that's an open question. Yes, we have a history of wars. Yes, we have a history of Christianity. Yes, we all inhabit the same small appendix of Asia. But does that mean that we really have a common identity? You know, here would be a nice task for the European Union.  But at the moment it's failed spectacularly. I think you're very right. But I think there's one moment when we can all unambiguously feel that European identity and that's when we're outside of Europe. When I lived in the Middle East, I realized I was a European. And when I came back to Europe five years later, I actually wasn't so sure. It's easier to feel European in Jerusalem or in Tokyo than in Rome or even Berlin these days. I think it's the only place where you can feel European outside Europe. The reason why I participate in this debate is first of all because there's no such a thing as European nationalism. I think nothing good can come out of nationalism. And I despise anti-European feelings a bit more than the European feelings. But when you ask me why are you European? That's my answer would be because I moved a few years ago to New York. And what else can I be in New York but European? I have no other choice. And I'm quite happy about it. I'm not sure. I like many things Adam said because I love your provocations. I think they're really smart and intelligent. But you said something about the re-armament of Europe. Well first of all Adam now of course did re-arm his country despite early promises. But I think what you really wanted to say is that the peace is not only kept by the European Union but also by the United States of America, if I understood you well. Let me finish for one second. And that's also why I think this whole question about feelings or whether we love Europe or not, it's all a bit gratuitous. In the end the question is are we willing to die for Europe? And if not, what does it mean to have this feeling of being European or not? And to be honest if you ask me are you willing to die for Europe or are you willing to die for the United States of America without idealizing the US, without thinking that this is a better place I would be tempted to say I would rather die for the US than for Europe because I think the continuation of Europe is in Canada and the US. If I were a member of a minority in Europe... I don't get that. You have to explain that because I don't understand what you're saying. Well of course the European culture is American culture. You cannot separate it. And I think in many ways the better place to live for many minorities Fritz Bokerstein is in the audience and I disagree with him on many things he said. But a few years ago in New York he gave a talk and he said an interesting and important thing. He said people vote with their feet. So the fact that so many people despite the criticism of the US would like to go to the US is telling. Yesterday I talked to an Afghan asylum seeker. He said I asked him why did he come to the Netherlands. He said because I could not find a human trafficker who would bring me to the US. I would have rather gone to the US but I could not find one. So that's what I mean. I think in many ways if I would be a Muslim in Europe I would want to go to Canada or the US. I think this is the safe for the better place. This is also why I think this I come back now and then you can finish to your comment. I think nobody will all love Europe but in the end nobody is willing to die for Europe. There's a movie made by Clint Eastwood came out a couple of months ago American Sniper about a sniper fighting in New York. It's unthinkable that we would have a movie German Sniper for historical reasons even Dutch. European Sniper. We had the ISAF in Afghanistan. According to American soldiers I've been as you know a few times to Afghanistan. ISAF stands for I saw Americans fighting. And this basically what you were saying really we have peace because Americans are willing to die for us and are willing to fight for us and we are not willing to do it for good reasons. Dying is not a nice thing but it is a bit problematic that we are talking about Europe without being willing to die for it. I agree. But I have to say that the one place where you really feel European is in the American Midwest. You know forget Tokyo. My view is a little complicated because I've got into Europe via the United Kingdom and before the European Union was really created properly. So I'm not at all surprised about the development at the moment to see that country go back to itself because it's never left itself. So my job there was to import continental culture to the UK coming from being born in the Middle East. So the very complicated route in there. So for me being a European is a strange notion. When I was 12 I said to my parents I don't believe that Europe exists. You have to take me there. I want to see it. Otherwise I'll never believe it exists. I've never been. And then I was brought to the heart of Europe to Munich. That was really the heart of Europe. And my country is culture. So I came here because I had a cultural calling and desire to connect with European culture. But at that time culture for me was represented by Holy Fathers to use a Christian term. It was basically poet, artist, specific people. A lot of them were still alive. I was kind of really coming on a pilgrimage towards something very specific. It's very interesting because of course this discussion is very political now but I think what is also another level of the discussion is the destruction of culture through the sheer drive of modernism and how in fact between the birth of Mozart and the death of Stockhausen we have an era of culture which I would call a culture of specifics. And after that we are entering into an era where everything is now flat. Everything is dominated by a kind of digital energy which we are meant to all bow to. And I often try to kind of put myself now that I have a small child who's born here and has to look back towards the east instead of me looking to the west. It gave me thoughts about what do I really want my child to... what kind of cultural calling would I like my child to have taken my own journey. And I'm very, very concerned, extremely concerned because I think that in the middle of this European discussion there's also a discussion about the disintegration of what I call the culture of specifics into a morass of something very vague in which we are meant to... One of the concepts that changes completely is the concept of curiosity because of course an intellectual is a curious person. It's a person who wants to find out something about something they don't know then relate it to other levels of knowledge and create an interaction and a debate like the one we're having now and culture is born from there. And so this curiosity notion has changed completely because of course our curiosity is on our computers now and it's kind of boiled down to something... to a completely different form of energy.


I think my personal leadership has come from finding my purpose and really listening to my passion. Some of the challenges that we face really are challenges and I think it's really important to stay positive so that others engage with you and you can attract others to work on sustainability. Surprisingly what I found are a lot of allies across the industry so I've made a lot of really useful connections with peers in other companies and we're working together to try and set industry standards and work on some solutions that would actually benefit the whole industry.


Appalachian Wireless now has new forward pay pricing where you can pay up front and get the data and features you design. Five gigabytes of data, just $39.99. Unlimited, just $79.99. Better service, bigger savings. That's today's Appalachian Wireless. West Virginia Third District Congressman Evan Jenkins met with Chatteroy residents and local leaders Tuesday in Mingo County. Representative Jenkins discussed sewer issues in the Howard's Creek area of Chatteroy. Residents on Howard Hollow Road, Barker Avenue and B Street have had numerous complications with their sewer system. Any time it rains the sewer comes up and we have a mess. It runs in our yards down the main road and we have people around us that can't flush their commodes. It has come up in their bathhouses. Officials with the Mingo County Public Service Commission say the sewer system was built in 1964. Residents in the area say the problem has been going on for at least 25 years, if not longer. We have fought with them for several years about working on it and it kind of got tiresome because all we ever heard was we're taking care of it. The problem affects roughly 400 customers. Residents and officials are mostly concerned for the public's health. We should not have to be living with raw sewage, other people's sewage. We had one family that had to move out of their home. The raw sewage would go in their air conditioning unit and under their house. It was making their kids deathly sick. They had to move. The Mingo County PSC estimates the cost to fix the problem is at least $6 million. In Chatteroy, Shelby Porter, EKB News.