Good morning and welcome to the 11th meeting of the local government housing and planning committee in 2021. I would like to ask all members and witnesses to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent and that all other notifications are turned off during the meeting. Our first item this morning is consideration of whether to take item 6 and 7 in private. Item 6 will be an opportunity for members to reflect on the evidence that they have heard earlier in the meeting on the valuation and rating coronavirus Scotland order 2021, while item 7 will be an opportunity for the committee to consider its approach to scrutiny, communications and engagement for its work on NPF4. Do members agree to take item 6 and 7 in private? Okay, that's agreed. Thank you. The second item on our agenda today is an evidence session on the valuation and rating coronavirus Scotland order 2021. This is the committee's third session taking evidence on the order. I would like to welcome this morning Tom Arthur, Minister for Public Finance, Planning and Community Wealth, non-domestic rates policy from the Scottish Government and David Smith, a lawyer from the Scottish Government. We are going to take the evidence from the minister before moving on to a formal debate on the order. I would like to invite the minister to make a short opening statement before moving on to questions from members. Good morning, convener, and thank you to you and to the committee for the opportunity to give evidence today. The purpose of the draft valuation and rating coronavirus Scotland order 2021 is to ensure that, in calculating the rateable value of specified properties after it comes into force, no account can be taken of any matter arising on or after 1 April 2021 that is attributable to coronavirus. Since the start of the coronavirus pandemic, over 40,000 non-domestic properties have been appealed on the basis that there has been a material change of circumstances due to the pandemic. Typically, material change of circumstance has been used to reflect either physical changes to a property, such as an extension or a demolition, or certain major works in a specific area such as the tramworks here in Edinburgh. The Scottish Parliament amended the definition of material change of circumstances to exclude changes and a quote, in rent, in valuations generally, or in values generally, under the non-domestic rates Scotland Act 2020, with effect from 2 April 2020. The draft order under discussion today further clarifies this in relation to coronavirus. By specifying that in calculating the rateable value of any properties in the 2017 valuation role, no account can be taken of any matter arising after 1 April 2021 that is directly or indirectly attributable to coronavirus. This state is due to the fact that subordinate legislation cannot take us further back. Primary legislation is needed for that. We confirmed in our programme for government our intention to introduce a bill on this matter in year 1. The draft order only applies to the current 2017 valuation role, consistent with our view that any impact of Covid-19 should be reflected at the next revaluation. It also does not take into account whether a property should or should not be included in the valuation role. For instance, if someone started working from home as a result of the pandemic, that legislation would not affect whether or not their office space may be considered rateable. The intention with this change in definition was to remove general economic factors from the category of relevant factors to consider in the context of valuation. While appeals have been submitted for over 40,000 properties, this is less than a fifth of all non-domestic properties in Scotland and, as the Federation of Small Businesses pointed out, not many small businesses are amongst them. This may reflect our generous existing support package for small businesses, but it likely also reflects that well-resourced, professionally advised property owners and occupiers are more likely to know about material change of circumstances, provisions and probably therefore to have appealed. I am aware that some large firms under appeal have been successful during the pandemic. As highlighted in evidence last week, there is a disconnect between how Covid has felt to businesses and how it impacts rents in the commercial property market. This is a hugely complex issue and Covid-19 appeals could take years to resolve. The outcome is also uncertain. It cannot be assumed that appeals would be successful or that their outcome is fair. In light of this complexity and the provisions on the non-domestic rates Scotland Act 2020, it seems to me that the question is quite a technical and dry one. When is the right time for market-wide economic changes, including any effects of coronavirus, to be reflected in rateable values? We believe that the right time for these type of changes to be reflected is at revaluation. We have strengthened revaluations following the independent Barclay review of non-domestic rates to ensure that they more closely reflect market circumstances. First, we increased the frequency of revaluations from five to three years and reduced the time between the tone date and the revaluation. Secondly, with the support of your predecessor committee, we delayed the next revaluation by one year to 2023 and also brought forward the commitment to a one-year tone date. The tone date will therefore be 1 April 2022 for the next revaluation in order to give sufficient time for the property market to adjust post Covid. Covid-19 has had a major impact on the economy and we responded swiftly and on an unprecedented scale to support businesses through the pandemic. We introduced 100 per cent retail, hospitality, leisure and aviation relief in 2020-21 and we are the first Government to confirm a full extension of this relief for 2021-22. The extension of the RHLA relief into 2021-22 took the total level of support provided to businesses by the Scottish Government since the beginning of the pandemic to £4.5 billion, including £1.6 billion of Covid-related reliefs. That demonstrates that the Scottish Government acted quickly to support the business community when it needed it most. We have been able to support businesses through the pandemic, but we must bear in mind that we must also continue to fund the public services on which we all rely. In closing, I would return to my opening comments that this draft order seeks to ensure fairness for all Scottish ratepayers, whilst maintaining the integrity of the non-domestic rate system, as well as the stability of public finances. If this instrument is not approved, the non-domestic rate system and therefore public finances will carry significant long-term risks for years. On that point, convener, I will conclude and I look forward to any questions that the committee may have. I will start with a theme around the Government's rationale for the measure. As the committee's members and the panel will be aware, we have already held two evidence sessions on this order. The majority of stakeholders who have provided evidence have expressed concern over the principle of changing the rules around appeals midway through the re-evaluation cycle. I would like to ask the minister more about the rationale for the measures. Does the Scottish Government consider coronavirus to represent a general economic circumstance in relation to MCC appeals? Or has the pandemic had such a varied effect on different sectors that those differential impacts must be taken into account? The rationale, as I referenced in my opening remarks, is about clarifying the measures in the 2020 act. As the committee will appreciate, normally what material change of circumstances considers is quite specific, delineated local cases, perhaps arising from roadworks and impacting individual properties. That has to be seen in the context of the broader principles that underpin the non-domestic rate system. In Keaty, that is a regular cycle of re-evaluations. It is at re-evaluations where broader market-wide changes should be considered. It is important to understand that context because we have moved from a five-year cycle to a three-year cycle and we have also reduced the tone date to one year. That provides a more appropriate means of assessing any changes that take place as a result of market-wide effects. I hope that that explains the position. To reiterate the point, what this order seeks to do is to clarify and make clear what was intended with the measures introduced through the 2020 act. We are going to move on to the second theme, which is about the principles of taxation, and Miles Briggs is going to ask the questions. I want to ask a couple of questions about the principles that the Government has approached taxation on. Do you believe that it is appropriate to, retrospectively, alter the basis for taxation, as those amendments will do? On balance, we believe that that is justified and necessary. It is in the public interest. What the order aims to do is to prevent the inappropriate use of material change of circumstances provision. It is about ensuring fairness for all ratepayers and, importantly, protecting revenue for local authorities to fund services in which we rely. As the committee will be aware, the intervention is not unique to Scotland. There are similar measures taking place in Wales. Indeed, the UK Government is taking similar measures in respect of its responsibilities over the non-domestics rate system in England. Thank you for that. Do you accept that that goes against the Government's approach to date, which has looked at certainty and wider stakeholder engagement around taxation? Is that purely because of the circumstances of the pandemic, or is that the direction of travel ministers are looking at? The member will be aware that the Government has consulted on a draft framework for tax and engagement is one of the key principles underpinning our approach. Cabinet Secretary, ministerial colleague Mr McKee and myself have had extensive engagement with business since their respective appointments following the election in May. As I made reference to earlier, the UK Government is taking a similar measure, which was announced in March, which would have indicated the direction of travel. The Scottish Government indicated what our intention would be in June, so that intent has been clearly communicated. We have had extensive conversations with business, but I have to be frank and say that it is not a matter that has been routinely raised with ministers. I think that that has perhaps also been reflected in the evidence that the committee has taken over recent weeks. We are going to move on to theme 3, around the parliamentary process with questions from Megan Gallagher. Thank you, convener, and good morning, minister and panel. Before I get into my questions this morning, I would like to refer members to my register of interests as I am a sitting councillor in North Lanarkshire. One of my first questions relates to the consultation process, because some of the views expressed by stakeholders suggested that there has been insufficient consultation on the regulations. One panel member in a previous evidence session said that, for businesses, what is proposed has probably come as a bit of a surprise because they believe that there has not been sufficient opportunity to engage in the process. I would like to hear the minister's views on that. I would really, in response to reiterate the points that I made in my previous answer to Mr Briggs in which there is ongoing engagement between ministers and business representatives, both individual businesses and representative bodies. That is a routine feature of the engagement that takes place within the finance and economy portfolio. There has been that opportunity for discussions, and, as I indicated, it is not an issue that has really been raised in any significant way. I think that that has been reflected in some of the contributions that were made in previous evidence sessions to the committee. I would highlight the point that there is an ongoing process of engagement that takes place, which provides a forum for businesses to raise any particular issues that they wish to have with ministers, including on that particular matter. If I could ask a supplementary question about the proposed primary legislation, what plans are in place for consultation on proposed primary legislation that, if passed, will introduce similar changes to the appeals process for the period prior to April 2021? Well, the member will appreciate that there is a commitment within the programme for government, and the bill will be introduced in line with normal process and procedures. As a piece of primary legislation, it will go through the standard procedures in Parliament of free stages and there will be opportunities. The bill will be ultimately for Parliament to determine how it wishes to scrutinise the legislation, but, as it is a piece of primary legislation, the options that normally apply to primary legislation will be available for the Parliament to decide on. We are going to move on to the next theme, which is about workload issues. I am going to start with Mark Griffin, who is joining us online. Mark, would you like to ask your questions? I just had a question about workload. If this order was not to pass and coronavirus-related MCC appeals continued, just to ask about potential implications for process and existing appeals and future appeals, and whether that might also have an impact on preparation for the next valuation? Thank you very much. I am conscious that the committee has taken evidence on. You appreciate that, as for the minister, it would not be necessarily appropriate to comment on the individual operational aspects of how assessors conduct their business, but I will perhaps ask a nuke to come in to provide some more detail. I would just echo the minister's thoughts that it would ultimately be for assessors, valuation appeal committees and possibly the Land's Tribunal for Scotland, for instance, if cases are referred to determine how they organise their workload as they are independent. The committee, I think, did speak to the Scottish Assessors Association about this last week, and it appears to me that they were clear that this would certainly be perhaps quite challenging if these appeals were to continue and to go ahead in terms of workload. I would just echo that point, although it is not appropriate for me as a minister to comment specifically. I have read through the evidence that was provided last week, and I think that it will help the committee to reach an informed and rounded view on the matter. Thank you. Mark, do you have another question? No, no follow-up. Thanks, convener. Thank you, Mark, and I'm going to go to Eleanor. Thanks, convener. Good morning, minister, and good morning to the panel. Before I ask my question, I, too, would like to refer to my register of interests as an existing councillor in the searshire. Following on from my colleague Mark Griffin's question, it's just to ask if the order wasn't passed, would the Scottish Government provide more resources to support Scottish Assessors consideration of these appeals, which we know could multiply if the order was not passed? Should we look at workload issues when we're making this decision? Should that impact on the decision that we make today? Thank you very much. As you'll be aware, we do support assessors in carrying over a job on that particular matter. I'll ask a Nic to come in just to provide some more detail. The Scottish Government, since I believe 2019, has, via local authorities, as is normal, agreed with COSLA funding for assessors in relation to the badly implementation of the badly review. I think it's safe to say that officials have a good relationship with the Scottish Assessors Association in the sense that we would expect them to speak to us if there were any issues in that regard. As I say every year, we have that discussion in relation to the implementation of the badly review, so the Scottish Government has supported them in the past few years in implementing this review. In terms of any implications, it's not for me to speak on behalf of assessors, but I know that the articulated review is quite clearly in what potential implications could be a previous evidence session for the committee. On my second point about whether workload consideration should be a valid consideration in deciding whether to allow coronavirus-related appeals, do you have any thoughts on that? As I said, it stated that our intent in this order is to clarify what is in appropriate use in the review of material change of the circumstance. The intent was set out in the 2020 legislation. That order clarifies that. To reiterate the point that I made previously, mark wide changes of circumstance are better considered in the context of a revaluation, whereas material change of circumstance is normally more for very specific delineated local circumstances. With regard to the motivation and purpose and the thinking of Government behind the introduction of the order, I hope that that clarifies what it is that we are seeking to do. Matters for assessors who operate independently are for them to determine. I'm going to move on to our fifth theme, which is around local authority revenues. I'm going to invite Paul McClellan to introduce that. Good morning, minister, and panel. Can I also refer everyone to my register of interests? I'm a seven councillor on East London Council. Minister, I think that you've touched on this already just to see if you want to expand on this. Obviously, whether the proposed measures were primarily about protecting public finances and whether allowing for appeals would reduce non-domestic rates income and require the Scottish Government to compensate local authorities would be an effective use of public funds? Well, it would not be appropriate for me to speculate in hypotheticals as to what the outcome of any appeals may be, but I'm sure that, given the information of safe as regard to over 40,000 properties on appeal, I think that the member and the committee will be able to infer the potential of the order of magnitude and the impact that it could have. There is a case of fairness for rate payers, and that's why it's appropriate that this is considered in the context of a revaluation. There is a need for greater certainty around public funds, because where there's uncertainty on the outcome of appeals, that can lead to uncertainty for public funds as well. So, there's a balanced approach in that and so fairness for rate payers and yes, about protecting public funds as well. Thank you. We're going to move on to theme six, and that's with Willie Coffey, the other forms of business support. Willie, would you like to ask your questions? Thank you, convener. Good morning, minister and panel. Minister, as you know, the UK Government also plans to rule out this MCC process that we have in front of us today, and on the back of that, it announced back in March a £1.5 billion scheme to support businesses, Scotland's share of which would be around £145 million. My first question to you is, have we received any of that money yet? Willie, did you hear that response? I'm sorry, I didn't hear a single word of it. The minister's mic is dropping in and out. Can you hear me now? Okay, Mr Coffey. You had asked if we had received any of the money and I gave a monosyllabic response, no, we've not received any. I followed up by saying that my understanding is that no businesses in England have yet received any of that money either, and we do not have any certainty over when we are likely to receive that funding from the UK Government. Okay, if and when it does finally appear, minister, what's your view on that mechanism being applied, rather than the mechanism of the appeals process? We have heard some evidence at previous committee sessions telling us that SMEs, in particular, very rarely appeal or are successful in their appeals because of the difficulty in the process, minister. We sometimes find that SMEs can lose out in the appeals process, but it was stated in evidence given to us that this mechanism can in fact be much fairer and reach many more local businesses if local government is at the heart of the distribution of these funds. What's your view on that aspect of it? I think that Mr Coffey articulates the matter very well. Through an appeals process, there is great uncertainty, there is uncertainty over timescales and there is uncertainty over outcome. As Mr Coffey will be aware since the start of the pandemic, the Scottish Government has supported business through a combination of reliefs and grants in the region of £4.5 billion. I think that there is also an important point to be made that we cannot assume that the link between rental value and the economic circumstances of an individual business is clear cut. In regard to fairness business grants, the support that we have provided previously, that model is far more effective and there can be far more certainty with it. It is certainly the approach that we have undertaken and it is the approach that we would continue to inform how that money that we will hopefully eventually receive from the UK Government will be deployed to support businesses. The Scottish Government has done any preparatory work in anticipation of those funds coming to us, Tom. You will be aware that, during the pandemic, we had many local businesses looking for help and assistance who sometimes fell through the net. I can think of the wholesalers group, Tom, who technically had been able to trade, but had nobody to trade with. They felt particularly disadvantaged after many other local businesses. Have we looked at that aspect of it, should some of money come this time round, to make sure that those who need help locally can get that help when it comes? I think that Mr Coffey raises a very important point. In responding to that, I would actually refer to the answer that I had given earlier on about the process of engagement. That engagement is continuous and that is obviously very important because it gives a forum in which businesses and representative organisations can raise specific issues in the context of the pandemic and support required. That collectively helps to inform the position that we will take as a Government. As I am sure that Mr Coffey appreciates, because of the uncertainty around timing of when we will receive that funding, it creates barriers in relation to preparation because when we receive that funding it can be difficult to anticipate what the broader context will be when that funding is received. We continue to have engagement in dialogue with businesses and that is important in understanding what the needs of businesses are and that will of course inform future decisions that are taking. We heard about some difficulties locally where the local authorities felt that there was no flexibility for them or no discretion for them to assist companies that perhaps did not fall within the guidelines and scope of the various schemes. Would there be any intention to try to afford the local authorities a little bit more discretion and flexibility? Could any further support funds arise just to give them the ability to look at the local situation that they have and make sure that local businesses get the help they need? I think that it's an important point that the member made. As he will appreciate, it's not been possible to support every business and every organisation that we would, of course, have like to do. The combination has been able to administer it. There's also just the ultimate limitation on resources available to deploy. We have, throughout the course of the pandemic, over the past 18, 19, 20 months now, listened and reflected and learned. That has informed how future iterations of support have been provided and has saved us on-going dialogue and those are matters that we will reflect on. I'd just like to pick up a little bit on that theme. I'd like to ask Minister for your views on the ideas of devolving power to local authorities to set, collect and offer reliefs for non-domestic race locally, not only in relation to coronavirus but in general. Of course, we have provisions under the 2015 Community Empowerment Act, which allow local authorities to set their own local reliefs. There will be further devolution of empty property relief from 1 April 2023. We have taken action over recent years to give greater flexibility to local authorities in regard to NDR, but we also have to be cognisant of one of the key aspects of business, which is for stability in the system. We have obviously had a significant period of change with regard to the implementation of Barclay. There is a need for that implementation to be fully completed. As I said, we have the existing flexibilities to accessible local authorities around relief, as a consequence of the 2015 Community Empowerment Act. The third item on our agenda today is consideration of motion S6M-01401, in which the local government housing and planning committee recommends that the valuation and rating coronavirus scale will be reduced. I would like to invite the minister to speak and move the motion. The question is that motion S6M-01401, in the name of Tom Arthur, be approved. Are we all agreed? That will be noted in the committee's report confirming the outcome of the debate. We will pause briefly while we change over and bring in other people for evidence. We have just heard that the cabinet secretary will not be here for 10 minutes, so we are going to use that time to do agenda item 6. She is just getting her coffee. She can hear me. We are going to move into private. The third item on our agenda today is an evidence session on the relevant adjustments to common parts disabled persons Scotland amendment regulations 2021. I would like to welcome this morning Shona Robison, Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government. We have Craig McGuffey, lawyer and Naeem Bhatti, head of fuel poverty and housing standards unit at the Scottish Government. We are going to take evidence from the cabinet secretary before moving to a formal debate on the regulations. I would like to invite the cabinet secretary to make a short opening statement on the regulations. Thank you very much, convener, for inviting me to present the relevant adjustments to common parts disabled persons Scotland amendment regulations 2021 for your consideration. If approved, those amended regulations will enable disabled people who live in housing with common areas such as communal access or gardens to make relevant adjustments to those areas with the agreement of the majority of owners. Within clearly defined timescales for each part of the process, the legislation is the first of its kind in the UK. On 21 February 2020, a legislation came into effect that enabled disabled people to make adaptations to the common areas in a property with the consent of a majority of the owners rather than the consent of all owners. Since the regulations came into force last year, feedback from stakeholders prompted us to revisit the regulations and amend them to include more structure around timescales for each stage of the process. The amendment regulations presented today have specific timescales for each of the stages of the process, providing clarity for the owners and the disabled person. Of primary importance, the regulations provide disabled people with a clear and workable method of securing the agreement of other owners to reasonable adjustments being made within common areas. Amending the principle regulations ensures that the legislation is aligned to our original policy intent that the disabled person can carry out adjustments to the common parts of a property in which they have an interest, provided that they make an application to all owners of the common parts and obtain the consent of a majority of the owners. I'm happy to answer any questions on the instrument. Thank you very much for that. Do any committee members have any questions? Good morning, cabinet secretary. Good morning to the panel. I want to ask a question specifically about advocacy for individuals and whether that has been considered, especially when we are looking at individuals who need that support around advocacy to make those changes? In terms of the support that is available for disabled people, a number of organisations provide support to them, such as Cairn Repair Scotland, local authorities as well, under the schemes of assistance. Given that, before disabled people are able to take forward any adjustments, an assistance is normally done, so that is part of the process for them to do that. I think that it's not advocacy per se, but in terms of assistance in funding of the works, it's very just worth putting on record that, obviously, the person could choose to pay for the adaption themselves, but they can also apply for grant funding from the scheme of assistance that local authorities provide as long as it's assessed by a suitably qualified professional, such as an occupational therapist, so that guidance around funding opportunities would be provided through the local authorities. Maybe we'll have to just put that on the record. Thank you for that. Do you know from the scoping around this how many applications local authorities are likely to see and the additional work that might present to them? Is there been any assessment of that? We don't hold that information individually, because the process is that the individuals will apply to joint integration boards and the local authorities and they will assist those applications and provide assistance to them, so they will be ones who will be assessing those applications, but we don't hold that information centrally. Thank you. Anybody else have other questions? Colleagues online? No questions? No further questions? Thank you very much for giving that evidence and we're now going to move to the fifth item on our agenda day, which is consideration of motion S6M-01817. That the local government housing and planning committee recommends that the relevant adjustments to common parts, disabled persons, Scotland, amendment regulations 2021 be approved. I invite the cabinet secretary to move the motion. I move formally. I would like to invite members to indicate if they wish to speak. The question is that motion S6M-01817, in the name of Shona Robison, be approved. Are we all agreed? Agreed. We're all agreed and the committee's report will confirm the outcome of the debate. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. As agreed earlier in the meeting, we will consider item 6 and 7 in private. I now close the public part of the meeting and we will move into private.


've got a couple of years to decide how you're going to use it if you don't have to use it all this year and you don't even have to decide how you're going to use it all this year you've got to decide by 2024 and you have to spend it by 2026 it's a crack another stupid question by you budgeting $600,000 for E5 budgeting $100,000 for the ice in it is that your way of creating lost revenue in a sense no no that's my way of spending some spending no I'm saying it's not creating lost revenue so that you can use the ARPA to replace it it's not revenue that's an expense revenue was revenue was revenue we can't really bring it on to our books and so we have a legal way to follow the rule of spending so basically he's doing is he's spending $600,000 to E5 and then bringing that in as revenue offset I just said no no no but it's not creating lost revenue see this see this column assume that said 2019 up here right so go down to the bottom of that column the bottom of the revenue so right this is all this is revenue right it's not spending anything right that's tax money grant money recreation fees and everything $3,067,000 so let's say that was let's say this was the 2019 column for revenue let's say this is the 2020 column for revenue no spending three two four eight three oh six seven so round it off you know $250,000 of lost revenue right so that's the it's revenue that we didn't collect now you have the ability to spend some of that revenue so you can put it in to your revenue reimburse yourself put it in to your through the ARPA money yeah you you use the ARPA money to replace that revenue that we had before that you lost and it's available now for you to spend okay so so it's not putting that if the $600,000 and the $100,000 weren't line items before they are now there was never any revenue source for either of those but you but but I'm using we have had losses you're gonna spend some money we've got $1.5 million of ARPA money sitting there it can be used for infrastructure things water sewer solar housing probably you can't use it for bridges you can't use it for paving you can't use it for culverts so that's where the $600,000 comes from so you take you can say and if we didn't have lost revenue right if I went through that exercise and there was if we had not lost revenue between 2019 and 2020 we couldn't do this we couldn't use it this way we would have to work with the public we'd have to say well we're going to do XYZ water project or XYZ sewer project but the federal government has allowed you to use that to make up lost revenue so all you have to do is go through your normal budgeting process which we're doing now Chris you could use that lost revenue for anything we could throw a party for bill you know with that money you know well I wouldn't recommend well I'm not being a little facetious but you could do anything you know once you show you've had that loss then it's basically it's like your money and that's why you decide to do it and that's why I'm saying that the $600,000 there offsets the spending that I posed to E5 if you put $50,000 or $100,000 on that pink lining that would offset the spending that I proposed for the ice center but but the $600,000 is not lost revenue spending that's spending for water infrastructure every time you do a spend like that there should be an offsetting expense so that that take your line item fits the category of that the blue line the blue one fits the category so you the red one give it to an organization and you know you could probably make the ice center fit the category it's a not for profit you could do it but I you know I was trying to see I thought we could fund the ice center that $100,000 without using any ARPA money at all and I think I proved that you can't I mean it's right now we've got a a modest tax rate increase not using any ARPA money for that $100,000 in the ice center but if you don't want modest tax increase you can put $100,000 there if you want to get more money into your CIP funds you can put some more money on that line item and and it's fine so we have a lot I'm trying to say we've got a lot of flexibility for the first time really well can you remind the board so two percent just to the board now two percent is a one one cents on the factory so it would be the 54 cents in your mind and for how much that would be in terms of additional revenue well I two percent go up to the very top just when we're talking through these different scenarios so if you go to the very top you see that the tax rate the tax increase is $112,435 right yeah 12,435 divided into 4,039,610 is 2.78 percent $112,000 depending on the grand list raises about $80,000 so that would be what a penny and a third something like that so I'm just trying to get an idea of what you want your tax so if we put that 100k in as the reimbursement fund we would be able to approve this budget as is without the tax increase yeah if you put the $100,000 on that line coming from effort to fund the ice center yield that $112,435 we dropped off to $12,435 and if you wanted to put more money into the CIPs which I think we're going to need to do even if we take out and if we take that $200,000 for the reservoir load out this year you probably don't have to put a lot more money in the CIPs but at some point you're going to have to do the reservoir load right so um I guess my recommendation is that I don't think it's a good idea to lower the tax rate below what it was last year because if you lower the tax rate you give up that tax revenue and at some point you're going to have to raise it just to get back up to where you were so I wouldn't lower it but well I have maybe a procedural question I can't remember how we did it last year and all those special articles we talked about you know some of the things going in special articles there's some of the small special articles how we used to town meeting group them we didn't do that everyone has a yay or nay yeah that's what I thought I just couldn't remember we can't you can but this is fair yeah I it's I wouldn't do it no I think it won't tell them together I think we did count meetings so we could bring a hundred thousand dollars of lost revenue into this budget to basically land at 53 cents again and well I think you if you brought a hundred thousand dollars into this budget then you're going to have a if you have a grand list increase you know so you might end up with you'd have a lower tax or so what did you say the portion for this year is seven what would you say and right now based on what you proposed you're spending most of the 775 but when the other one comes you'll still have a billion dollars this year but I guess to complete my question if you were to bring the hundred thousand just this is what's known to discuss around grand list growth because maybe we can do 53 cents and just hope the grand list covers that short all right but basically after the conversation next week with the i-center please aboard feel like we want to put a special article request of a hundred thousand dollars to the ice center and it gets voted down that just means that we would have revenue tax it wouldn't change our taxation rate because that would be as a part of the voting right yeah if if from my the way I would do it is if if we've got a hundred thousand dollars coming from our quote and a hundred thousand dollar special article to the ice center if the hundred thousand dollar special article fails I would transfer a hundred thousand to the ice center is probably going to be one of the more controversial things and I think at the special meeting you really need to explain well you haven't even decided if you're going to do it well I know it was we decided to do that I'm just saying you know when you have big numbers big numbers come with more well unless they're big numbers like a whole budget where people can't understand them but when they know a single item they know what it is and they have opinions for against a lot yeah I understand and that's and I think that's that's where I was feeling on that level I think if we had open county you can explain it better and make people understand that you're not going to be this isn't going to hurt at all I mean you can write the article in such a fashion that people should know that it's not going to add to the tax burden but there's still going to see that hundred thousand I still get to see the ice so it might not be so I understand yeah I would think it'd be more inclined to believe that for some reason that county's not in the ice center you know that's hard anytime you have a big number you know anything from 15 to 30 thousand dollars people will have more and that's and that's why you know I mean I put it in the special articles right now but it doesn't have to be in the special article it can just be in the budget and remember the school tax rate I'm not blaming them but that's probably going to go up so does anybody I mean I think we all realistically would love to see our tax rate go down but ideally even if our tax rate went down if you're going to see the school go up you're going to see a net payment increase but you know but last year I know you know I do you guys just surprised me all the time because last year we went from an approved budget in 2020 that required 55 cents we cut it that year and raised the 51 cent tax rate I came in here with a budget last year at 51 cents didn't have to go up and you said well we can't have a tax rate that we've got to add something because you don't want to just you know have to go up double in the future so realistically it put it down now no but I love that um you know maybe by this time next week I'll know what the 2020 loss revenue is so that was a question to me as long as it's time for money available well the aqua money is there the aqua money is going to be $1.5 million you have to go the interesting thing about our family we all have that big animals on our well I'm thinking bill I wouldn't want to know where it's for $600 but sounds like you know originally this idea sounds like it was really going to be the $600 basically you acquire the asset of e-fud and get the revenue alone on I just want to understand exactly what that $600 is and what it really seems like it's legally because it sounds like this is a project that's going to go over that standing construction component of the water system of the trailer or some of the other projects I just want to understand that we go into town today that that urge is really going to be in place right right right the proposal that I made was $600,000 for e-fud to use the water project in exchange for the and that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's sorry to do this but the last thing that the last meeting we had when I said I don't recall taking taking the water and sewer contract you're getting fired you recall along and what I said was when I had that idea that was what it was going to do I think that that exchange alone is it's worthwhile I don't see that the problem is anything the problem doesn't have any risk in any of it but but if you read the memo that I think that there is it goes on to say and oh by the way I think the next step of this should be commercial and e-fud was they don't they want this and does that urge come in it well I mean I guess it couldn't come in any possible because maybe we would if we paid them anything we'd be in our references and we'd work right right right right right right so this is just the beginning of that also because the resources live in separate entity the our property came into town in the only way that you can access it is through our property without wanting to do that right right right so so I'm trying to bring a 53 cent tax rate yeah 53 cent tax rate probably raises more money than a good chance this was going to be the foreign list rate so yeah I'm saying that I really I wanted to support it a little higher personally I don't think we need you exactly no one might be able to afford money to balance and as a chance depending on what happened this budget that you might not have without that tax utilization again I'm trying to show you don't know you don't have to see where we're going right right right right so for our money we need to speak to infrastructure the ability of that money to be used for infrastructures is it infrastructure in the broader sense or is it certain that it is what I know that we can't do with it except for the lots of revenue and aspect of it is that you can't use that for what we typically on the outside of the infrastructure so you can't use it in any circumstances so loans bridges that kind of stuff you can't use at all except if you can show us revenue and you can just live in your capital fund and then transfer into your CIP so we will be able to bolster our capital funds with this lost revenue there's more lost revenue than this hundred thousand dollars that are proposed with ice so I think and you know might be a good idea once I figure out how much the lost revenue is and I don't have a whole other kind of should be this would be out of revenue but I'm hoping that that the money system but you know the lost revenue you might want to get that into your budget and into your capital funds now and then it's it's there it's there to change the rules and do you want to motion with the CIP scheme to go on the most from the library most of the rest of the year yeah and I think based on what I just said now there's no great reason to thank you thank you Okay, it's a very interesting discussion. Thank you guys for all your effort that you put into all this. Thank you very much. I'm going to let you know, 60. Thanks again. Okay. And then, we don't need to make the most of the music. I'll say it like that. So, let's look at the record. We intended the record. The record is going to be providing a proposal for agreement between a group that feels like it's going to take some understanding and you're at maybe the council. Okay, on whether or not you can make an agreement that it's not on the validity of any sort. And I'll do this, but a lot of work and a lot of discussion into every minor agreement. It seems like most of the folks who are participating in this all agree to basically it's not going to be a law or anything like that. I do whatever I want. I hope maybe it's going to be a specific plan. I think there needs to be discussion on committees like that and conflict of interest. Discipline again at that meeting in terms of the ability to get through gender. That's the picture of the town. That's the picture of the town. I really don't think there is a problem. I think that was before. I think it was one of the better. I think Mark and I are there a little more order and this is faster than you. I'm just going to go through the board and not be able to maintain its numbers. Anyone here? Both of you are here? I don't know.


of a little section. And then of course, that quarter will then play Jockovich in the semis. So it's like, I mean, Elcaraz's draw is not easy. That's a tough draw. Did Rafa win? Not this year. You're the best narrator in the world, thank you. Appreciate it. Musetti played well, but he played someone at a ranked above 100. Yeah, look, he's playing Nori next. I mean, if he does the same to Nori, watch out. Thoughts on Jockovich ADF? I think Jockovich wins, but I think ADF can get a set. You can grind out a tiebreak or something, I think. I think Jockovich should win, but maybe I'll give a set to Fakina, just because. And Schwarzman gets to the round of 16, potentially quarter finals. Yeah, I think he could beat Steph. I mean, they've had some battles.  And for Jockovich to be top 10, probably not at this stage. This is not really the French Open. It is a figment of our imagination. I don't have no French Open tab. All right, Deb. Yeah, thanks to Dawn and the mods for helping out. It's been a big day, a busy day today. How many matches are we watching tomorrow? Probably five. I haven't decided yet. I haven't seen, I don't know what's on the card. We'll watch a lot tomorrow. It'll be a big day again. And that's the Nole, yeah.  Great win from Jockovich. Should have won the first set, maybe six-three, so it shouldn't have been as close in the first, but at least it made it interesting for us. No worries, Quintus, thanks for joining us. We'll see you later. Nori did look good today. He did. So Nori-Mouseti, both look good today. One of them is gonna lose. One of them has to lose. I'd rather see Mouseti play Elcrez though. I don't wanna, I've seen Nori play Elcrez and in a slam, I feel like Elcrez might get him, but I would love to see Mouseti play Elcrez, because I feel like that is the match that, like that has a little bit more like randomness to it. And it could be an upset. I feel like Nori might get a set, but I don't think he beats Elcrez, but Mouseti has a serious shot at beating Elcrez. And so does Shapo. I mean, Shapo, who knows, right? Shapo, it depends on what Shapo rocks up. Which Shapo is gonna rock up? That is the question. What do you think about Nole? What do you think about Nole? Wait, what? Djokovic got broken too many times for my liking. Once. He got broken once today. He faced a lot of break points though. That is not gonna be good for when he plays the better guys. But he only got broken once, so he can't be too unhappy. I tried to, something you, what? I don't know what you're talking about. Did you see the mom feast by his ending? I did see the highlights at the end when I woke up. That's crazy. But I didn't see the end of it, yeah. I saw the highlights at the end and mom feast was ridiculous. Djokovic got broken three times though, did he? He got broken once in the first, once in the second. I got broken twice. He didn't get broken three, did he? You always sin at tomorrow? Oh, okay. Sorry, ooh. Sorry, boss. Sorry. Do I? Is that somewhere written down? I can't remember. Is that in the contract? Is that in the contract between me and the chat? You haven't watched Sinner yet? Where's the Sinner match? You owe us. Twice in the third? Oh yeah, sorry. He got broke, okay, yeah. Okay, I don't know why that updated. Three, I mean, three breaks. Yeah, I mean, is that a bad thing? No, I mean, look. He should have got broken the first one. Yeah, sorry, he got broken, he broke and then he got broken and then he got broken at the very end, didn't he? Sorry, my bad. It's been 12 hours, I'm a little tired. What nation is hosting slams? When a nation's hosting slams, people do still go to work, right? Yeah. But they just go home at like one in the morning. Anyone gonna put money in for Keter? Who's gonna win? Not gonna win. I hope Monfie's plays. I'm a little worried he might not play. He either plays the match or withdraws before. Oh, he just wouldn't, what a, wait, hang on, did that really just happen?  Monfie's is withdrawn from the French open. I have a problem with my wrist. Oh, chat, sorry chat. He withdraws from the French open following last night's epic, Runa goes to the third round. There you go, Runa wins.  So what's gonna happen tomorrow night? Who are they gonna put on? Fritz versus Rindanish? Are they gonna upgrade? They can't put root on tomorrow night because they've already got the schedule. Zverev, Mulchan gets upgraded. Where are the Frenchmen? So they've got one men, we're gonna put a men's match on because you can't put, well they don't put women's matches on nighttime yet because they're crazy, but Rindanish Fritz is the obvious pick because of the French. So it's probably Fritz, Rindanish tomorrow night now instead, or maybe Sina versus Altmaier, maybe. There you go, well I'm not surprised. Yeah, I'm not surprised either, Lorna. We're literally just talking about it, that's ridiculous. Well, we're not watching that tomorrow. So, what are we gonna watch? No idea. No idea. I mean, that was the obvious match.  Yeah, Baez just punched a hole through the TV. He punched a hole through that TV. Kuzka Zakenna playing next, she's playing Stearns. And I picked Kazakina because she is our favorite. Sina already did a night session though, yeah, it's probably gonna be Fritz. Fritz, Rindanish. I mean, you've got the French connection, you've got the top 10 guy, it's an obvious change. Unless they put Dodden and Jabur on at night and then they put maybe Sina during the day and Shfiante gets bumped to the afternoon, they could put Dodden versus Jabur on at night, give her, and then put maybe Sina on Sina court and bump everyone down, they could do that. I guess they'll ask. The last Fritz versus Rindanish, if they wanna be night session and then they'll ask Jabur or Dodden. One of those will be the night session. Is my pick? Well, maybe it's Vera, I mean, it's Vera of Mulchan. They could easily bump that because I was supposed to play at five o'clock so they could bump that in and then someone gets upgraded, I don't know. Maybe we'll watch Vera tomorrow.  Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, look, oh, this is what I'll do. This is what I'm thinking. If I was a French open and you know the French crowd, they for some reason don't wanna watch ladies at night. So if they wanted to watch Rune versus Monfice, the best replacement is, I'm gonna put on Fritz versus Rindanish. It's a men's match. It's a Frenchman, it's a top 10 guy, it's a great, it's an easy replacement. The crowd won't want refunds as much because it's a French guy playing a top 10 guy. It might even be a win. I mean, Rindanish might be able to get, maybe they'll be Fritz, right? So I think that's gonna, yeah, it'll be a snore. We're not gonna watch it, but, but like, it's an easy replacement because you've got Frenchman, top 10, night match, men's match, whatever. So whoever bought tickets to Rune versus Monfice won't, because remember, they buy the tickets knowing that that match is on, people are gonna want refunds now. So if you put Fritz, like, you know, versus Rindanish, maybe less refunds, because you got a top 10 guy versus a Frenchman. So less refunds for that. So it's probably the best, probably what they're gonna do. At least that's what I guess they're gonna do. Yeah, Fritz is in the top 10. I think he's number nine, right? I think he's number nine. So yeah, so I think Fritz, Rindanish will replace Monfice and Runa tomorrow night. Runa through, yeah. God, I feel bad for Baez. Like, it sucks for Monfice, he's injured, but man, I feel bad for Baez. That's annoying. That's annoying. Fritz, Rindanish, isn't a snore? Well, it depends. Well, it's not as good as Runa, Monfice, right? I mean, that's, if you're comparing the two, it's not as good. Or at least it's not as, it might be good, but it's not as, I mean, look, Monfice and Runa, I mean, look at their shot making, right? How old is Baez? 22. Best match of the day? Coconacus versus Vavrica. Agree, chat, what do you reckon? There's only two good matches that we watched today. There was only two, and it was either that one or the other one. Which one do you reckon, chat? Which one was the best match of the day? Match of the day?  Match of the day, upset of the day, go. Yesterday it was one and the same. Mehvedev, Mehvedev. What about today? Match of the day? Well, actually yesterday it was Mehvedev upset, and then Monfice, wasn't it? Coconacus was a match of the day, Elkraz, okay. Rubelev was cool, okay. Coconacus Stan and upset was Garcia, yeah. I think upset was Garcia, right? Garcia did lose. And then Stan Coconacus. Stan's match was match of the day, okay. Well, luckily we watched it. Luckily we got that one. So then upset of the day, it had to be Garcia. She's the only top 10 player that lost. Who else lost today? Any other big names lose today? No. Yeah. Garcia and Coconacus versus... Vovreka. Chokka's match wasn't bad, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't bad. It was entertaining, but... Yeah, Osterpenko lost. Was that an upset though? Yeah, I mean, yeah it was. It was an upset, but not unexpected, I guess. She can lose. And Bear lost? Yeah, but he lost to Senegal. I don't think that was an upset. Ladies of the party, who are we watching tomorrow? Not sure now. I don't know. We're supposed to watch Monfice Runa, but I have no idea now. So I have to wait, I have to get some sleep and think about it. Let me sleep on it, and then I'll tell you tomorrow. Yeah, good respect from the Understands match, for sure. Yeah. When you thought it would be fireworks, you know, drama, it wasn't anything like that. It was great. It was nice to see a really intense match that didn't have any, even though it could have easily had weirdness, it didn't have anything, so it was good.  A nice match. Monfice withdrew, yep, he's out. Samson over, lost as well, that's true. Had Elgar's look. He looked good, except for the second set when he looked bad, but he looked good outside the second set. First, third, fourth, looked great. Third, second set, he fell asleep. They put Zverev Mulchen on night session. There you go. All right, well, Zverev's a name. You know, Zverev's a name, so yeah. So Serendola Hampman, get the boost. And Zverev Mulchen, get the night match. That's actually not bad. That's not bad. I don't mind that night match, to be honest. Zverev's a name. I think Monfice withdrew because of a wrist injury, so. Or wrist problems, I think he said. Nobody said chat. Wrist issues. Like you can, you make RG accessible for working peeps. You're welcome, no worries. I'm happy to help. We've got four minutes until we've been here for 12 hours. We're streamed for 12 hours. From start to finish, 12 hours. We've got three minutes and then I'm out of here. We'll make it 12 hours exactly and then I'm out of here. Then I'm gonna sleep and come back and do it again for 12 hours tomorrow. Then we're at 12 hours tomorrow.  Cam, as per you, who has been the better player between Nola and Elkiraz? Djokovic has been more straightforward. Elkiraz has been more flashy. Like Elkiraz has looked more entertaining and more like energetic and interesting. But Djokovic has been more like just, yeah, he didn't play great in the first set today, but Djokovic is just getting the job done.  He's trying to play a little, he's trying to hit highlight shots, he's trying to entertain the crowd. Whereas Djokovic is just coming out here, working, getting the sets, getting the next round, next round, next round. I think Elkiraz might be, I don't know, I'm a little worried because Elkiraz is being, like trying to, he's trying to play, hit the highlight of the week every day. You know what I mean?  So Djokovic is a little bit more workman-like, it feels. Not flashy, people aren't gonna talk about it as much, but I don't know. He's not gonna be in the highlight reel, Djokovic, but Elkiraz will be, and is that gonna be good? I mean, you don't win a French Open on a highlight. Yeah, he's been more of a showman, which is fine. You know, I love that for Elkiraz, it's fun to watch, but a little worry that he's trying to do, like he's not just, like Djokovic is coming in, break, break, break, get out.  And then the second set today, he tried to do crazy things and he lost. So is he trying too hard to like, I don't know, I'm a little worried about him. He's having fun, which is great. That's probably where he did. Djokovic, yeah, that's probably, that's the word. He's coming out having fun.  You know, get to the next one, get to the next one. Elkiraz is kind of like not mucking around, but he is kind of a little bit, like today, when he lost that set today, it was out of nowhere. So we'll see. He can't do that against Shapo. He can't do that against Nori. He definitely can't do that against Mosetti. It's only gonna, now the serious stuff happens for Elkiraz. He better not be mucking around too much. Cause if he does, one of these guys is gonna get him. Yeah, his coach will straighten him out. Yeah, straighten him out, straighten him out, yeah. I think Elkiraz can muck around against the guys he's played, but he can't do that against Shapo. He can't try and like hit winners, like try and be fancying in Shapo. Because Shapo, if Shapo's on, things get real, you know? Mosetti would trouble Elkiraz. Yeah, I agree. The two different players though, Elkiraz plays his best sense when he's having fun.  So he's like trying to hit winners every shot and he's trying to hit all these amazing shots, which I love to watch. But then he hits, if he gets in a bad patch, he loses a set randomly.  Whereas Djokovic is like, consistent, consistent, consistent, like trying not to get broken. He got broken a few times, but like, you know, hold, hold, hold. You know, Djokovic is just coming out here and winning, instead of trying to be, you know, hit winners. He's just like, I'm just gonna, you know, do the job. I don't know, we'll find out. We'll find out in the next couple of days when things get real serious. Who does Runa play next? Good question. Runa plays the winner, if you don't know yet, it'll be tomorrow, the winner of, he'll play a qualifier. So Runa's got a great draw now. He'll play the winner of Oliveri and Vavasori, who are both qualifiers. So, and they both played five setters in the first. So if they play five sets, Runa's gonna be sitting pretty. And then Serendolo Fritz, a weight, Runa in the fourth round, potentially. I wanna see Rude Runa. I wanna see it. Give me Rude Runa in the quarters. I wanna see Rude Runa. Mercedes did look strong today, yeah. That's what's scary with your Elcaras. Jokovic plays against Devadovic Fakina next. All right, chat. It's been 12 hours straight on stream. Thank you so much. Not the longest stream we've ever done, but it's definitely been a marathon. Thank you for joining. We've watched five matches, including that epic in the middle between Kokonakis and Vavrenka. We watched Jokovic get through in straights. We watched Elkaris get through in four. We watched Pagula getting through all the way back 12 hours ago. Remember that? All the way back when she got the win over Georgie. And we also saw Fernandez, unfortunately going down to 1,000. Plenty more tennis tomorrow. I'll see you guys then. Thank you for joining us. Seven, six, six, love. Six, three. Jokovic gets to win against Fuchovic. Vakina on Friday. We'll see you there. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow for more tennis, including Shafiante. We're back in it. Drabur, Zverev, Sina, Fritz, Rude, and more. See you then. One second, before I forget. Goat, goat, goat, goat, goat, goat, goat. Greatest of all times, goat. Magdalena, thank you for the 20. Great match. Great match. Thank you. And Jay. Elkaris has two into the women. Did you see his pool? I did not see it, but thank you for the donations. Now I'm leaving. Appreciate that. Thank you, Magdalena. Can we get some solutes if anyone's still here? I'll see you guys tomorrow. Thanks for the donations. Bye.


OpenAI's chatGPT chatbot has been evaluated to determine its effectiveness in providing accurate and clear answers to patient questions related to gastrointestinal health. The results showed that chatGPT was able to provide accurate and clear answers to some questions, such as those pertaining to treatments, but not all questions, such as those pertaining to symptoms or diagnostic tests. Overall, the quality of the answers provided by chatGPT was dependent on the quality of the online information available. This finding could be beneficial for both healthcare providers and patients, as it provides insight into the capabilities and limitations of this type of technology.


Good afternoon. Can you all hear me? You will have forgotten my name by the time you have your dinner tonight But you will not forget this in the next two or three days this introduction Why because I am different and I stand out That's why you will not forget it So how did and that's the first item in my professional toolkit Doesn't matter whether you're an engineer lawyer or scientist or whatever You have to stand out What did I do? How did I discover this? I got myself a first-class honors from Manchester University, and it was sheer Hard work. What did I do to get that first-class honors? We did a very simple experiment just boiled exactly like that. You can see from the date This is half a century ago Boiled the water measured the temperature put some salt in it boiled it again and measure the temperature again Even p6 Students in Singapore know that the temperature of the second is higher than the temperature of pure water so Fine, that's great, but then I have to explain why does it behave like that? Well, that was easy went to the library hundreds of books tell you Why does the temperature change and it's something to do with? Energy of solution great Then I said to myself Can I predict the temperature of the water based on the properties of the salt? nothing, I Don't know. I've not looked recently whether there's anything in there in the literature nothing So I did that little bit actual that's a little bit extra and put that in my report Consequence I got noticed I got noticed by my tutor by my lecturer by my professor by the dean Just that little bit and I got my first-class honors and my career was off At a trajectory like that who's hand bolt is he's no faster than my career Right, so two things I learned at Manchester University. I learned engineering they say But more importantly, I learned how to learn Because you don't know what you learn today and you don't know what you might want to use tomorrow So I learned how to learn being a member of the institution of mechanical engineers They put some pressure on me to put some discipline on continue to learn. I Have to continue to learn Doesn't matter whether you're an engineer as I said earlier a dentist or a doctor You've got to continue to learn and now even faster because things are moving so fast Right. So what did I do with my education? I went to work for a company? American company based in the UK making materials handling equipment and They were making this innocent looking pallet truck is called a pallet truck has got two fingers and that Was a design imported from USA and it wouldn't work in Europe because The these fingers were so wide. They wouldn't enter the European pallet here the US spec was ten inch one ton capacity Europe wanted seven inch one ton capacity US offered seven inch three-quarter ton and I designed it Seven inch one ton. Those of you are an engineer might understand this But I'll explain it in layman's. So what I did was very simple not rocket science. It's very simple theory of structures I Just redistributed the material so that the top layer and the bottom layer equally shared the work Done to support the load. That's all This was very imbalanced the bottom layer was like working like crazy three four times harder than the top layer And you're costing a bomb result Went into production sales of that truck for my company rocketed But before we got to that step I had to prove it I had to prove it Here I am nearly a fresh graduate from University Telling designers in USA of materials only equipment how they can design a pallet truck to Meet the specification. I had to prove it I'll show you the next slide, but you don't have to really listen. It's an engineering slide But I'll illustrate it by using this Hanger What the slide says is That if you deform an item, which they're called the elastic range elastic range It'll come back to its original shape. If you deform it beyond the elective range. It's useless Fit for the bin Imagine your car goes over a pothole You don't want it to come out all bent and twisted. Do you? So it is the science behind that I used to make Analog simulations. There are digital simulations these days. I used analog simulation Because that was the only tool available to me. I'll show you two more things before I I Demonstrate what I actually did this will this this is not invented. This is real stuff. I Have a piece of metal here. I Bend it can anybody see it bending now because you need Strain gauges data loggers Transducer and God knows what else to find out whether this is bending are a piece of foam You can probably just about see it bending a polystyrene form Now I have this So right at the back. Can you see it bending? Can you see it come back straight? This is the material behaving like any of the engineering material, but it's got a Mechanical amplifier built into it. I don't need data loggers. I don't need transducers and strain gauges so I Make my models Using these materials and I'll demonstrate to you here and now What the effect was? Those of your engineers will understand what's a simply supported beam is this I'm gonna make a simply supported beam I put this beam in there simply supported means is only supported on two sides. I Put this beam in I put a weight on it This tip in fact you can see this on the next slide as well This deflects more And this and this is this represent the shape of the finger This is the shape. I showed you the top, which is very inefficient. This is a shape, which is very efficient right then To make it more dramatic I made it out of my amplifier built in the amplifier material But I wait on it Where I wait on that which one deflects more right Argument was finished No more argument. How can he prove it? Is he qualified enough and old enough to be able to make these recommendations and I Got some additions to my toolkit. I grabbed the opportunity to redesign something Opportunities are there in all directions if you look and if you're hungry enough They're there. I am the respect of the marketing and you say, how do you know? because I Got into the Christmas mailing list of the marketing and the sales department and they don't give you anything for free No, never not the employees customers. Yes, I won the trust of the people in the company How do I know I won the trust? Because now they would come to me seek my opinion seek my advice and listen to me Great stuff. I'm happy. They're happy And I got noticed And you'll say how do I know I got noticed The vice president of the American company offered me to go and manage his design office. Now, that's some notice So I increase my toolkit to add those as I keep saying doesn't have to be engineering I use my engineering knowledge to sell the idea But these are required by any professional No matter which field Or any employee Right in my infinite wisdom. I did not take the job to go to America I took a job to go to Redland which make one billion tiles a year 18,000 employees four billion turnover big company when I joined I Was a tadpole in a big Redland ocean when I during my tenure I Became a whale in the Redland technical pond Now this is a question about you go work for a big company or a small company That doesn't matter. It's where you are working which part of the work company you are working is important. I and What happened next before I tell you what happens next I have to give you a very 30 second or one minute lesson on tile making tiles are Otherwise the context doesn't work Many different shapes But this is the important bit here a tile is sitting on a roof looks very innocent the shape nothing But when you look under say underneath it is As complex as any article you can name to me any article is Got very complex shapes. It's got very complex mold to build Make the shape on very complex tools to build the Match any industry aerospace automotive Shipping you name it. It'll match it and this is the The punch line These concrete tiles are sitting on your roof if you got Singapore has them as well sitting on your roof with no sealant is Tile on tile guaranteed to last 75 years in Durability and guaranteed that there will be no water penetration for 75 years when Once in 75 year event means there's only one storm comes every 75 years is so severe it destroys things Water won't penetrate. They're that accurate not only that Tile made in year one Has to fit with a tile made in year 20 maybe year 10 because People have the heartbeat of renovating extending They do break people do silly things on them. You got to repair them So this tile which was installed 15 years ago You go to a factory buy a tile and it'll fit and it'll still keep the water out Not many industries can claim that And I'll talk about that a bit later as well. So that's about the tiles So it's important that it may not sound very sexy. I tell you it's got challenges Now that a bit about the tile plant a tile plant is a fairly long building If you're at this end and something is going on on this end, you don't know what's going on unless somebody tells you No cameras in those days. I arrived at my new work suited booted My boss gave me the car of my new the keys of my new car and he said Kogi, I'm sorry, but I haven't got a job for you. Oh So I say well you go and visit some tile plants two three days and I love fixed it Cut a long story short. I ended up in a tile factory for three months three months and That had impact on my toolkit The first thing thing was I grabbed the opportunity to go and work. I didn't complain Hey, I'm a manager. I can't work in a tile factory Now So I grabbed the opportunity When I first arrived the workers were very very suspicious of me because They said oh another boy or from the center come to tell us what we should do in time I started to dress like them have the same safety clothes helmet or tacto I work their shift. I ate in their canteen work their time and they started to trust me Now they would tell me if there's a stoppage at the other end of the factory And I'm the other why it has stopped not only that They shared with me with information on how to run the tile plan 24-7 which is not in the manuals It's in their heads and that is difficult to get out So I won that trust and I got help from them. I earned the respect of my colleagues When I finally went to manage the design office, which I'd come My colleagues knew that probably I knew more about tile making than they did because they even in 20 years wouldn't have spent a Collection of 30 three months work of time in a tile works So one the respect instantly no problem. I got noticed HR were watching me the tile plant manager was watching me the board was watching me Yeah, they've given me a brand new flashy car and writing my paycheck. I'm doing nothing for three months So somebody was paying attention Watching me So I got noticed and Most of all my knowledge increased By a step change Completely new field of knowledge. I had it Nobody could take it away from me. So what did I do next? Okay, I Then started I migrated from designing machinery and plant to Designing the concrete product itself now. That's a completely new feel for me. So there. This is where new learning comes in When I started tiles were weighing 5.3 kilograms each and by the time I left we could make the same performance tile at 4.3 kilograms And it was done with introducing new technologies and new tools CAD computer computer design computer that manufacturing finite element analysis genetic algorithms new terms Very very new terms quarter of a century ago They are everyday tools now Okay Had to justify all that lot was very very very expensive so This slide is full of equations. I'm not going to teach you equations I'll only make a few points if you have a big problem How does one solve a big problem? Cut it up. Thank you very much, sir You cut it up into smaller Sections and solve that that's what finite element element analysis is it breaks it up into small parts Analyzes it and then Measures the effect of that onto the next part When I've designed the first style, I didn't have a computer. I didn't even have a calculator. I Had to use my slide rule. I don't know whether you've ever seen a slide rule and this was my Google So I did cut it up into small segments But I couldn't cut it up too small because I'd be wearing my slide rule out to calculate it CAD argument one Make a CAD model you can slice it up as many times as you want F e a We have an expert in amongst us on F. Yeah at the back here Clive will introduce me I'll tell you a story. I attended a symposium Organized by Clive nafam symposium. It had speakers talking about a fear simulation design tools and all that all from all over the world and There was a gentleman very clever gentleman who introduced a novel way of designing a beam and he was using nature the lattice System the nature uses to design a beam very light very strong. I Talked to him during the coffee break and I said to him Assume I have a perfect material that the material has no defects and I want to design a Component to the factor of safety of one What are my risks? I? Still strive to work towards that. I haven't got an answer But I'm still working at it, and I'm going to challenge you guys to think about it. He didn't have an answer obviously Then I said, how do you validate it? I say we would do strain energy calculations and ah Now that's where the problem lies This is a fundamental equation for the theory of structures 99.9 percent times people use it to find applications And it goes in that direction F e a you make parts you go to Google you go to a To a lecture theater. They'll say that's the formula if you want to calculate the stress strain and all that Right, and you use that However I Thought in this direction. How did the formula come out in the first place? It's a mathematical formula pure mathematician solve it in 10 seconds flat no problem But to apply to engineering solutions There are 10 assumptions built up in to arriving at that And if you want to design to a factor of safety of one You want to address those assumptions? If you cannot address those assumptions you cannot design We had a fairly friendly chat after that Genetic algorithms Again, I was on the same platform giving a talk at NTU and no at one of the universities of forgot And there was a professor for NTU. We were both waiting for our tons to come and we started talking And he mentioned genetic algorithms. Yeah. Oh, I said, okay. Yeah, what about it? We are trying to promote this I told me I introduced that as a tool in my company 25 years ago. He nearly fell off his chair Point here is There are opportunities if you're hungry enough, you will find them. I found genetic algorithms by Accident and I won't go through that because I've got very short time in this presentation But I can talk to any one of you if you wish to talk to me after the event They're quite happy to talk to you Right next. Ah, this is a Zuna. I've got lots of stories to this is a nice one Rudlin built a brand new tile factory on a Greenfield site costing 12 million sterling we're talking of those there's 50 million Singapore brand-new factory they could make What we call the main tile because main tile on a roof bulk of the roof is covered with the main tile But to finish the roof you have to have fittings they complete the edges of the roof without that Roof doesn't work. It leaks They could make the Tiles main tiles no problem fitting tiles the mold just cracked in the tile machine yard is filling up making half a million tiles a week at 140 pieces per minute three shift and Nothing is going on because we haven't got the fittings Panic panic panic brainstorm session. Let's talk to university. Let's talk to consultants Anybody anybody who knows anything about tile making or tile design talk to them Everything looked six to eight months away with a Ton of scrap at the end of it all those crap molds and whatever I Used my friend This material here These are actual photos of what I showed to my CEO That's how they were in a bit of cardboard and a form model And I demonstrated by the form model that the failure was occurring here You can see the spending and that's how exactly the real molds were failing and I Said we can reinforce it to stop that failure And I've got those models here outside of the meeting if you want to look we can look at them Within a month all the molds in the factory were modified Factory was running. You have to have respect. You will have to have earned Respect you will have to have won the trust to be able to do that type of thing then I taught myself automation self taught myself Removed all the clouds of release agent from the time machine made a proper machine tool Remove the dust clouds from the cement mixer in fact even removed the man from it But all the proper dust control saved money Each tile plant could make a very various shapes Stranging from anywhere of these and when they change the profile from one shape to the other it used to take 30 minutes or more Reduce that time to four minutes and there was a record the built They printed these shut in honor of the work we did one minute and 38 second was the fastest Anybody ever change the profile in a tile work All that was achieved with automation at that time solicitors switches were coming plcs DC drives Controls using those all the bang-bang systems were removed and controlled acceleration control deceleration control the product Exactly where you want it to stop or start from So plant speeds increase from 90 to 140 pieces per minute huge impact on profit Inverted drive plc control solid state switching increase my knowledge certainly improved The efficiency of the plant Breakage, you know remind you're running with your sandcastle on your hand. You'd stop suddenly Breakage would use by 2% One billion tiles. They are making Remember 2% may be not a very big number profile change times change from 30 to 4 minutes and The one which I really savor out of that is We made it change to the quality of the life of the workers and their families I didn't like to work in there. Why should I expect? Anybody else to be working in that So that is what engineers can do Change the quality of life Save the environment save the planet by using glass resource and all that. What about the people? Okay? I Haven't got the slide next. Okay. I was going to show you a sandpit where the I'll skip that the sliders got misgum missing now. This is a an example of communications and Empowerment and sharing I was working on a Project which was my patent. I don't know. I've got about 20 patterns. I forget lose count of them And I needed half a million pounds sterling to do the development in one trance and Normal submission for such request was 50,000 60,000. I wanted half a million The idea was not novel the idea was to put Very good material at the top, which is the aesthetics part of it which you guys see every day and Put functional material at the bottom, but the extrusion process or the making process was so violent that it makes it all up and The invention was to find a solution to that It so happened that the main board visited the technical division one afternoon lots of presentations were set up and Mine was one of them. I Chose to make my presentation at the tile machine. We were working on and my MD said Kogia Give you one piece of advice Get your points out in the first 45 seconds if you don't you'll lose them these captains of industry are smart people If you throw a lot of jargon at them, they'll see through that fog You cannot fool them 45 seconds. So I wrote this one slide and wrote it at the time We make 1 million tiles 1 billion tiles 4.5 billion concrete and each ton of tile This is the cost of this material. This is the composition We put 4 pounds of sand 16 pounds of cement and 12 pounds of pigment in it and I said I'm going to save 4 to 40 percent of the 12 because I'm not gonna put pigment here Immediately the question came Kogi. How are you gonna do it? Great they were hooked No That I could take all my time to tell everything now. This is where the sharing and the empowerment come I Had my technicians and my design colleagues at the site. I wanted to give them the opportunity Their two minutes of glory with the board most of my patents although I'm the inventor We have Co Patent ease on it Just imagine a technician working in a shop the technician can have very good ideas. No problem Whether they will be able to have a patented very very difficult because to patent something You have to have a very very narrow find the world is full of very many clever people and To patent something is extremely difficult and now these people got their name on a patent There's no better. Thank you than that These guys would do anything for me Honestly, they would do anything in terms of work after no problem with them. That's the last slide of my presentation So that's my toolkit Get noticed Take opportunities opportunities are there educate yourself Increase your knowledge and respect when trust and ethics Very important one last story. I was developing a product in the USA and The USA has a very very stringent fire test What they do is they take a tile put a ton of coal or They call it brand when it's pieces of wood dried up pieces of wood Light fire to the wood and the tile should withstand that for 45 minutes Very tough test And our tiles were not doing that and one time luckily we had a marginal pass The certifier said I can pass it and I said no, I wouldn't have those tiles on my house There was tremendous pressure from the The peers saying look we have passed the test. Let's get on and start making them I think I wouldn't have that on my time house. Why should I let others have it on their house and of my presentation? Any questions no because yeah, I don't release the product because it's marginal Just imagine we put it on the roof and the roof they have forest fires in California's for example something falls on it burns it and the house burns down Well mentality well, it depends No, it depends on the individual. I'm saying I I Had high ethics ethical standards My institution says I should have very high ethical standards if you join IES Institute of engineers in Singapore they say you should have a high ethical standard And you won't be certified as a chartered engineer if you don't But there would be people who would take a chance I wouldn't That's the difference Okay, if you're not completely bored by now I I'll I'll show you this last slide and I'll You seen these on the streets of Singapore, right? When the first came out I looked at the first bike Good grief would I ride it? Because this is one bike which is going to hit the curbs on and off the curbs more than any other bike Not we're not looking at BMX riders who will do crazy things and this tube Was so small Who worried me? So I went home And the way I am First I built a base reference model and looked at where is the weakest point of the bike Did that and there's the answer I don't need CAD cam or whatever I got tons of them more of them if you want to talk to them, but you have been a tremendous audience. Thank you very much Okay, oh Nobody wants to go, right? You want more oh Well, okay, if you have time I don't think I'm pushed to be because I didn't know whether I'll be allowed to stay in the room or not I can I can carry on yeah because I might have been I don't think not anybody is following us Okay, okay Look, this is the awful bike Usually I give this talk in 45 minutes. They allowed me only 25 I've taken 30 So I think this this was the first bike I saw I Think it's a bit unfair because these guys would design these are not slouches So they must have done some homework to make sure that they would work But it it certainly rang alarm bells in my mind Right after repair it so many times it keeps breaking It's now a lot more stiffer than it originally is because I had to put stiffness in there As you can see how to patch it up The hollow yeah, yeah No, they they are lighter for the same strength But the beauty of these types of models is as long as you do it the same to each Family it doesn't matter. It gives you the answer. It gives you the trend Right if I if I used a hollow there and a solid there that'll be unfair But I'm using solid and it tells me this is stronger than that Structure wise where the deflections are you try to calculate the deflection of that using one of the Solid modelers, which you got It'll take you a fair time to actually make the model first and then you have to apply the boundary conditions Where are the forces coming from where are they going? No, this is stronger And this this then I started to play with what would I do if I was to Just advance it from there Yeah, there were there are some bikes with the I beam on the on the street as well not many but there are some One of these members yes, yes Yeah, yeah, that's I've seen those Yeah, like that. Yeah there. Oh, yeah, I can't deliver can't deliver wheel. Yes. Yeah, can't deliver No, oh, it's a got a gear inside so the point here is that I'm not saying you shouldn't use but models and simulation is very rife, but I'm saying I Don't have that but I can't find the answers. Oh It's a it's so simple in terms of engineering Just shift you are engineers or studying to be engineers Yeah Okay, well, it's it's a matter of neutral axis if you understand neutral axis in the old one the neutral axis where high and I just brought the neutral axis to the middle That's all right.