Okay I see Quentin is joined. Okay so I think we can get started. Okay so should we first go through the questionnaire? That sounds good. Okay. Sure I just need to step away for two minutes but please get started without me so long. Okay I'll just share on a screen. So this is the survey we looked at this last time and addressed the comments. So I'll go over this again. Can you see the screen? Yes. Okay so the first question, how would you identify yourself?  So have a link there. Yes or no? Which CNCF storage project are you using or contributing to? So this is the more with the surveys more for the user side. So we have this you know whether you're using it or not here so we have we have Kubernetes, Duke, that is TKV, service brokers, CSI and other and how do you classify your experience? So any any comments so far? Nope no I'm trying to read as you go along but okay okay and what attributes of storage systems are the most important for you when making decisions on which storage system to choose? So this is the new I added this one I think this is a Quinten's feedback so I don't know maybe people will choose everything basically just saying there's some trade-off that you have to between your choices right so and then if you have any problems making those decisions. I can think of a few more you can add into that list yeah you could add snapshot replication. Oh so those are I think we have more about those like the some of the later questions we have those snapshots replication so we have those the later on so that those are in the data services section right I'm not sure that you couldn't put them up there in the other one though because I believe there are solutions that lack support for those things maybe I'm wrong but oh I think I think this is more based on the storage white paper basically we have the those five attributes in the beginning and then we talked about some of the other services what can provide those so we could add but maybe there will be overlapping right so so that's why it's not there so those are the basic attributes that we are adding here basically so is it okay we can we can we can go through the rest of them and then then you let me know if you think if this is okay so basically the in the white paper we first talked about okay so those are the the main five storage attributes and then when you're making decisions you know do you have to decide what is most important for you right so if you let's say I have some example here if you choose something that is a a system that is strongly consistent but maybe that cannot scale horizontally you know that maybe some system has has very high durability but then maybe performance is not good so things like that so some of the other like the data protection those those are on top of that there are those are the other services that you add on top so putting them together then impact your decision and impact to the all the basic attributes basically I think that's what it means so so going down to q6 yeah deployed the first one deployed as a hardware solution I think maybe amplification you mean I think a hardware storage solution right I mean right yeah hardware storage solution okay that hardware it's somewhat confusing with confusing okay okay so this yeah so this basically the first one meaning yeah it's like the hardware storage yeah like the traditional yeah like a enterprise story yeah and then versus the second one is you know the software component on commodity hardware that's the software yeah so that one's maybe if they're maybe getting long but software on okay on commodity server software might be a way to make it clear commodity hardware commodity server hardware might be a good way to okay or you could just say commodity servers that would work commodity servers better okay yeah okay is that better now maybe servers servers oh okay yeah I doubt that many people do it on a single pin but yeah so this they also say they can multi-choice right so we can have both yeah so everything's almost every question is like a multi-select because they probably have multiple storage not just one and so if you consume just three different public public cloud providers and then or maybe storage as a service so this is a yeah this is also just a Quintan's feedback maybe somebody will provide some database service on top of like aws or google cloud and then you know customer will just use that one directly so that will be the slayer on top so we have this one there anything else we could add or this is i think either it's a hardware it's purely the hardware storage solution or software on commodity servers or public cloud prior to storage it looks good to me okay okay and then this is basically just you know what it's a file using file block object key value stores databases and then I missed everything there but I think a category that I know is out there a lot that isn't in would be a screening solution like Kafka okay so yeah well so what should we there's well a lot of people would respond to Kafka but I hate to put the name of one specific solution so so they could have like e.g. Kafka but I'm open to other people suggestions trying to just e.g. Kafka where do you want to put that I mean maybe under databases but it is a different category is that the data there's a message yeah no no under databases it's a different category oh you mean like a streaming streaming it's not storage so what do you call that well you can use Kafka to persistently store things yeah we didn't we didn't include message buses as part of the scope of this working group I don't think so I think I mean if we you know we need to restrict the scope somewhere I don't think Kafka is what people understand to be a storage system okay so they could include that if they think about that maybe they could put you know we have other all right that sounds yeah so we have other and we have don't know yeah Kafka is I'm not sure yeah okay block okay so block then you specify what blocks three system then you give a name then actually if you give a name then if it's well known that we probably already know the or the other truth about that particular three system so we still have ideas two questions why is the data protection uh basically those are the you know we basically just listed rate and erasure coding those type of technologies and then the next question we have uh other advanced services like replications snapshots clone encryption or other so just some people may not know all those details about like the the first one I'm not sure so so but we have other or don't know if they don't know the details just they could just say don't know so is this okay uh Steve you know you you mentioned the snapshots so we have it here basically so do you have that okay yeah that's okay okay yes I think oh should we add one more question related to how the block storage is accessed I think I have that before but then after the last round of feedback I removed them because the same if you if they specify the name then you probably know that already so that's why I removed that we have we had a very long question long question in the last time the protocols okay doesn't have any examples for local or like you know on prem block storage options except for self I don't think we have anything that is just a what so there's just some names it can be anything right so just I this is just a it's just some examples you can be anything right maybe along with self should we just put fce is to see that kind of stuff uh we could we could do that yeah okay wait a minute those are not block storage systems those are yeah those are just a protocol yeah that's why it's a savvy 3d rbd but yeah we don't have the we removed the protocol do we need to put that back but if they specify storage then probably we know sometimes it's for both sometimes it's just one I'm not sure that we really care very much do we okay uh well but the protocols it's kind of important oh I can I can add like lbm that could be it's asca's yeah at least that's covered at least that's one one more protocol there isca see just to be clear the vast majority of people running on virtualized hardware they don't see that protocol at all they they just see a block device in the virtual machine um so for the vast majority of remember we're talking about cloud storage here so yeah a lot of people using cloud storage don't see that detail okay so probably yeah for yeah maybe for the enterprise storage then usually they probably know that okay it's fc or asca they probably will make some choice there so but no no but in that case I'm not sure in that case they're running open stack and system disks and open stack are backed by somewhere the enterprise storage system and they get plugged into the bottom of their virtual machine and they still don't see asca's or fiber channel or whatever um I think it's probably depending on which level that they are I mean if if they are actually if they're setting it up actually they have to know you're setting up fc is difficult so I mean if they are actually it's gonna have to set up those systems right and they would have to know so but you might have a specialized question that simply says if you manage your own storage hmm oh yeah maybe okay that was actually a general comment that I gave shing was uh-huh we've got users of the stuff and they have knowledge and a set of interests um we have administrators of this stuff or installers or builders of you know self maintainer or whatever uh and if they're answering this they have a different set of knowledge and a different set of requirements um so I think we need to be very careful that we don't confuse particularly end users who I think are the ones we kind of care the most about by asking them questions either they don't know or they don't care okay and I think if they asca's fiber channel would be an example of something where they don't know or care right I think I agree with that one I think it's more for a cluster administrator than the end user that question so we so we do in the beginning we do have this uh the category can we just take a look at this to make sure that we cover the other you know whoever will be responding to this we do have the cluster operator, flow provider, project distributor, the storage vendor, just storage user yeah I'm not sure from that if you could to Quintin's point if someone was on open stack some subset would actually manage the tier underneath the VMs and some might not yeah fell from their answer here which category they'd fall into they could they could they could use a multiple right they could pick multiple categories if they think they are uh so do we need to add something I'll just say manage um should admin or no well that would be like cluster operator type it could be yeah but even then it doesn't tell you whether they go below whether they actually manage below the hypervisor layer right so I don't know do we need to add a question for that but then um uh do we need to add a question do you manage your own storage I think it depends on what some customers do some customers don't do you need to say do you manage your own storage do we need to add a question somewhere on top or I don't know I'm whether their interpretation of a question like that might just even be that somebody who buys EBS volumes and pays for it thinks they manage it yeah that's true so maybe so we'll just leave it like this and then we we will be talking to the end user group and if any of you know they can still give us feedback if they think you know there's more questions they want to answer all right so um so one more uh suggestion around the lines of instead of asking you know protocols isca z fiber channel whatever I think the more interesting bit that I'd be interested in is does your storage uh system require the installation of the kernel module that I've noticed as a kind of uh a challenge for folks who are trying to deploy the kernel module are your storage Kubernetes you're thinking about a kernel module in the vm and without it uh the storage right or the host whether or even on bare metal but yeah the other one is for the for software defined storage that's containerized whether it requires running as root or privileged containers right on that side that seems strikes me as in the same category yeah I mean for for as far as I can tell anybody who's deploying a sds on top of kubernetes basically has to run privileged they have to be able to access uh the the block devices underneath to expose them um maybe if they expose just file system they can get away with not being privileged but the vast majority are privileged uh but doesn't hurt to ask also should we have a separate section for this cluster operators or cluster administrators where these questions are present and normal users can skip that section yeah I think you're right because um I think a lot of users would even be confused by this and wouldn't even understand where the kernel module is yeah those are the admin I guess the admin would be the one that would do those so um I had a lot of similar comments I think as soon as somebody answers you know EBS of the thing they use then we kind of know what the answers to a whole bunch of other questions are so we should not ask them and similarly if they choose sef or they didn't choose whatever something else then a whole bunch of questions are irrelevant yeah the only thing I'd say there is there's lots of people who are multi-cloud so just choosing EBS doesn't mean you're not also maintaining a physical on-prem data center I agree and and and that's why I'm saying this kind of is looking more and more like it needs to be a proper interactive questionnaire where depending on the answers to your questions you get asked other questions um because you're totally right I mean when you when you ask them which of these do you use and they say I use EBS and I use sef on-prem or whatever because I'm a hybrid cloud user then the answers to the EBS questions are different to the answers to the sef questions and you need to ask the same question twice once for EBS and once for sef except that for EBS we already know what the answers are for the most case because they're defined by the sef product or sorry the EBS product so yeah we end up making a very we either I see Chris is saying yeah we need a branching questionnaire and and the other overarching kind of comment I made was if we give people more than you know a very small number of questions to answer particularly if a percentage of them are like questions we shouldn't need to ask them they will just give up and not give us an answer so yeah so that's why yeah we try not to make it too long yeah when they don't understand so I was I don't know I was wondering if we should just have like a maybe a simple set of questions that get get some feedback and then maybe we need to um get a I don't know another round of survey or yeah sure um yeah well I guess a form of branching as we do an initial broad survey and depending on the answers you give them follow-up secondary surveys on specific subjects if that's what you mean that would work it's a form of branching that mm-hmm okay how is this going to be distributed by the way as an email with a link or I need to yeah I try to need to ask a acquittal by this one so you said this is the like the release team or you have the um a template of this one right from another survey how did they distribute the survey it's not not using this right has to be some kind of format that they distribute the survey uh well when you say I think Steve's question was different is is how we get it out to people are we going to email it to them or are we going to you know announce it at a community meeting or whatever was that your question Steve yes okay so so I don't know the precise answer to that I believe it was just mailing lists uh I can find out precisely how they did it um I think it's a different question is is how do we actually uh expose this to to users is it right that's my question yeah in there or is it a piece of web software that we develop or is it something else or is it a spreadsheet they fill in or whatever that's a different question and it's looking increasingly to me I think if we had a simple set of questions that we asked everybody and they just went and clicked through multiple choice questions you know survey monkey would be a reasonably decent answer it's not clear to me that we can actually formulate this branching questionnaire effectively using survey monkey but I'm not an expert on that so maybe we can figure that out later okay yeah yeah I think that if we have to branching the survey monkey probably doesn't give us that much capabilities to do that uh so okay yeah we can decide on that later okay so we we should you sorry sorry Shing I keep interrupting you I don't know it's possible that we can actually make links from one survey to another in survey monkey where you you know you answer two questions and then it says if you answer yes to either of these then click on this link to fill in this other survey monkey thing so it looks like a branching survey but it's actually multiple survey monkey don't check okay okay one other thing while I'm babbling on I just wanted to point out that I think the the idea that you had Steve of having multiple rounds of surveys where you ask you know one set of questions and then depending on who answers what you send out another set of surveys I think the problem with that is that you end up with a potential like survey fatigue problem where people say I've already done the bloody the storage working group survey I'm not doing another one or in the worst case they actually just think that it's one they've filled in already and they just have more the second one so I would caution us the other thing is to send them a follow-up requires exposure to privacy rules and things that vastly complicate it right because you assume you start taking IDs it becomes messy by the way while you were talking about survey monkey and it does do branching but it's only available in so okay maybe we'll just the first to get the questions first and then we decide what to do with it so if we do let's say if we do a branching um well maybe we I don't know after this long discussion I'm thinking maybe getting a simple one that has pretty generic questions is the better way to go here rather than to cover yeah every every last corner in every room so there are yeah so if we do branching we have so I think we also need to decide how many categories we want to go so here like we have several different identities right so that's another thing if we wanted to do branching for it could yeah could go differently for each one of those so can we just ask some general questions first and then we'll see if you know if it's too much or you know we can say if you if you are your row is something then for example like this question right and then we'll just say if you are an admin and this this one requires something we can add this and we'll see how that how that goes because if they are not they can just keep this question rather than design a completely different survey for a different row it's probably not necessary there are still a lot of common questions I think yeah yeah I agree one other idea that just came to mind is I think different people have different tolerances for questionnaires and you know I think there'll be a large number of people who are only gonna answer like somewhere around 10 questions and then they'll just get irritated and then there are other people who's prepared to spend you know much longer answering much more detailed questions and maybe if we structure the questionnaire in such a way that we can accommodate both essentially with mandatory questions you have to answer these and then once you've answered these based on your answers to those here's a bunch of additional optional questions then then at least we can you know get the basic answers from the people who not prepared to spend much time and get more information from people who are yeah it's a bit like those freeform questions at the end of some of these things like is there any other stuff you want to tell us and then some people will write tons of stuff there and other people will leave it blank but maybe we want to do it in a slightly more structured way okay yeah I was having the same thoughts that I started searching for data on recommended numbers of questions and it looks like there's there's people who say that suggest that you tell them not not just the number of questions but your request says this will take 10 to 15 minutes and a lot of people will enter into the path if you promise them that but beyond that you're not going to get much participation for an unpaid survey so maybe what we should do is rather than questions we should test this on ourselves just how long it actually takes to answer and come up with this you know come up with a survey that is legitimately going to take 10 to 15 minutes yeah I agree I think that's a very useful goal yeah okay 10 minutes okay yeah with that case and okay we'll just and I don't honestly know whether that's 10 questions or not but whatever it whatever you do in 10 minutes then we cut it off okay okay so we may need you also see if we want to rearrange some of the questions too if we think some questions are more important for them to see upfront before they quit okay so okay um should we okay so should we continue so basically I think those this two might be yeah some of those uh depending on the the row right some people may not know how to answer those um uh so do we let's say if we want to have some optional questions at the end um so the simple question if you are watch let me let go back to the we don't well I'm guessing just a guess here but I'm guessing what we have in this doc now is already at the 10-minute mark but it's already yeah it's already we can cut but um I was just thinking the cluster we don't really have a cluster admin do we need to add that one we only have you see the the vendor the contributor distributor user do we need to add a admin here probably should or is the operator will be you know operator will be the honestly I I think there's if you only describe it as admin there will be a lot of user confusion as to what what it means to be an admin I mean somebody who simply consumes as a service out of aws yeah but as admin credentials probably considers themselves to be an admin okay so basically we just remove this one just let them decide if they can if they want so let's say for example if we make this one optional question right optional this is a more detailed question if they really need this then they can answer this one right they can say don't know so we will put this one at the end is that okay or yeah that looks okay so sad wifey yes yeah that sounds good to me okay Steve you're trying to say something oh I was going to say that I thought sod might be only on a phone so much but oh camera showing on the thing so yeah looks like he is on the phone yeah hard to find a new button sorry it's okay I'll just yeah I'll just the desert storage system require instead of a kernel modus move that to the end as optional more deep question okay so um those type of questions should those also go to the end or we'll leave it here for now okay and then for file system is basically similar what type what file system are you using and then how you know that's the same right so we have how is data protected and whether more advanced so on that specifying on file system you chose not to make it multiple choice um oh I basically I I asked him to to specify I mean we unless if you want to give some examples because I actually this one basically just this is just well if I try to answer myself I'd be wondering do you want like a me to identify a specific vendor or are you asking for um nfs versus uh smb for example okay it's a protocol or okay you mean by the question all right so okay so maybe we should we have something similar just give some examples uh what is actually I'm I don't know what is the one on the what's the name of the the one on EWS is that the EFS something like that right something like that and then the last FSS something all right something like that uh we actually I do have the protocol questions earlier but I also removed that I think after the feedback so but they if they specify this one then we would know right um we could add the protocol question as a optional right at the end we can add some optional questions as for the protocol I think what we what we need to ask ourselves for every question we ask here why do we want to know this information and right so I thought the Alex was saying you know he he was actually wanted to keep those type of like the nine and ten those type of questions that he thought maybe with this we could have some ideas for the next round of we could have some use case you know look at what type of use case we want to look into next I think that's what he was saying so know a little bit more details rather than or just a very high level questions so I think that's what he was saying um yes and just to be clear I'm not saying we shouldn't ask them questions I'm just saying every question we ask we should be clear why we asking and what we're going to do with the information if we get it otherwise we're going to end up asking them all the questions we can think of asking them and they're not going to answer them right right so if they um because in the last you know white paper right and then we would presented it was said okay how the white paper now the next step we want to uh do some use case right so basically look at some specific use cases so go through the survey and then after they answer this we can look at survey and then decide what use cases we want to choose and then maybe do some more deep analysis of those use cases so all right so should I should move to next I think it's almost actually we almost there so object store just so you choose what object store you're using key value so we gave some examples and databases so didn't list any of the some of those actually it's up here in the key values but actually they are also databases and then oxidation yeah I wonder if this oxidation section should move up a little bit this is kind of towards the end we have this what container oxidation system are you using and what type of workloads are you currently running so this you know this is you know what we discussed last time so uh steep steep drop off I think he uh gave some suggestions um you know we just went to the the docker hop uh site and then just see what are the most used ones so picked a few just give give them as an example saying okay tell us what type of workloads are you running uh not on containers on containers and uh what are you planning to run in the next three two uh six months and are you using a voting plugin and then you know then tell us if you're using entry plugin uh docker uh plugin or flex voting csi that's that's the end of it so all of those questions you incorrect me if i'm wrong those are only things that a cluster administrator would know or care about right um right yeah those are probably uh cluster administrator mm-hmm the reason i'm asking is i'm wondering if one way of simplifying this dramatically would be just too limited to end users in the first round mm-hmm interested if you are a uh you know someone consuming cloud uh and so we remove essentially all but one of the options in the first question and then we can uh basically delete that question and then any question in the questionnaire that does not pertain to an end user um we remove and the benefit of that is one the questionnaire gets much simpler it becomes very easy to decide what to put in and what not to and then if we wanted to do another questionnaire later for uh like cncf project contributors we can do that and they won't they will be very minor overlap that the audiences will be completely different so we won't have the questionnaire fatigue problem right but i think for the i was just thinking i was looking at the people in the end user uh group um they are people who are actually managing their own data centers so it's not like you're just using it so they probably actually do have more knowledge i mean um if we are just completely saying okay you're going to talk to us but he's muted oh i was saying yes you're you're right the Venn diagram isn't two separate circles there's an overlap there which one i'm sorry which one is a little the concept of use some you some people are both users and admins at the same time yeah i i do know a lot of end users they actually have their own data center they actually manage it it's kind of hard to say that you they are in the cncf end user group and you're saying you can answer those questions or but i think quint might have a point that maybe we should get out an introductory short survey just to get the experience of doing a survey and simplify it and it would be an attribute of uh not pushing up against that 10 minute limit limit either and let's see what happens and we can do more okay so so how about we can we just choose those questions that we think are just for end users first and then we then we'll see so let's see right now yeah there are more there are 20 questions so we still want to know i think we want to know the workload yes definitely um excuse me i think i need to go get some water so we just keep like this three question they're actually uh pretty similar can we really count them as like three questions or seven questions i would suggest perhaps getting rid of the first one and uh combining the other two oh okay 19 and combine 20 and 21 and say which types of workloads are you currently or planning to run oh so you're saying like not not asking this one it was just a suggestion that that we uh just have a combined question saying which of the following are you either currently or planning to run in the next three to six months oh okay all right okay this questions don't have to be under the orchestration section right i think they're pretty yeah we can move this up so if we are going to say have only 10 single questions we maybe we don't need those titles anymore it's just we initially have those sections because there are many many questions for each section so if we just have 10 questions i would just get rid of those sections i think yeah we we can move this do we this one we still should have right where is it that one is good i think yeah i agree okay so so just move with us everything to the front without the without the section okay so and then we don't want the plug-in ones okay um and so we still have yeah we will have those so we have the this will keep 16 we'll keep we'll keep this one and we'll keep this so yeah we then we maybe we'll see if we still need this this question is a little hard to answer i think i'm gonna have to drop because i've got a prep for another meeting coming up okay thanks dude thank you okay then this one this one is like a more like intro kind of thing if they answer the below then we know which one they're using so then maybe this one's still but this one maybe if they want to answer other then it will be here they can say other so so what about what about this one we need this one right so they sorry shing and one one other suggestion we could potentially get rid of question seven and merge it into the sections you have below just just a thought okay if you have a block section the first question can be if you're using block complete the section and then you've got an answer to the questions of it automatically okay i was only thinking that if they are saying like like steven was mentioning um what kaka if someone was considering that one then they answer other that's why i thought maybe you know keep this but otherwise yeah we probably don't need this yeah or you can put it at the section at the end are you using any other stuff that we haven't you know asked you about this questionnaire right at the end you might have some free form free form uh you know other information okay so that's optional okay who's to have yeah we'll move everything else in the optional okay and this probably will be optional too i think it's maybe not that important and the attributes one we need this one right we need to know they what is important for them but they probably will answer everything i'm assuming um yeah maybe uh maybe a better way to ask that is to rank them yeah yeah i was just thinking i i need check if if that that is possible in sorry monkey or maybe that is possible sorry monkey ranking yeah yeah we're i'm sure there's a way you can do it you know either you have to put a number next to each one or something okay yeah i think ranking is better yeah and this is this is needed to classify your own experience yeah i think so okay and this one i think we need right we want to know what project so i think we're gonna take a contributing part out because we're only interested in people okay you're using okay and this one we need when they know that and how do you identify yourself yeah so okay so now we have how many questions we probably still have 10 yeah i would i would remove um most of q1 the question one um i think i think essentially what we're saying and again this is suggestion i'm not mandating anything but i'm i'm we're only targeting people who use uh cloud storage and so okay so we don't really need this they don't just they can't answer it but we assume that they are using it uh well i don't know what what other people think if if we said something along the the lines of we're only interested in your answers here if you use cloud native storage so you know if you're implicitly if you're a storage vendor and you use stuff then we're including you as a user not as a vendor and if you're a project distributor same thing and if you're a cloud provider same thing um and all of the yeah same if you're a project developer so basically people so basically it will just be this one category basically exactly okay yeah that's fine yeah we're just saying that we are talking in cloud native storage user yeah yeah they can still the vendor they can still be a user in their like dev development even you know exactly but but we're only interested in them as their capacity as a user as a user okay yeah i'm i'm fine yeah okay so now so now we have dramatically cut it down now so we only have one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven yeah i think that's good so uh just off thought like an additional question ask for the biggest pain points they have around uh using container native storage chain points okay points doesn't have to have a selection but more like a that will be that can be the optional part that we can ask them yeah i think it's actually very important so if we can make it simple to answer and non-optional i'd be in favor of that because i think this is you know one of the main things we want to know is okay what do you not what do you not like about cloud native storage so we can pick i don't know to what extent we can make that a multiple choice uh with another category yeah so what do you so it's about hard to hard to install or hard to hard to deploy they are user that they still have to they still have to deploy it somehow so you're assuming they are using cloud storage then yeah uh something puts on that one right like the failure or something like some failure happened performance this is tied to the it's actually this is actually tied to this one's more see yeah like the attribute question but this is more abstract and then that one is more concrete yeah so um okay so we give when you give some choices right so then they can easier for them to answer so what other things that you don't like about is hard hard to deploy hard to manage hard what um they don't have a solution to yeah i think i keep interrupting somebody somebody trying to talk in the background did i interrupt you uh i was this Kiran again so i think this kind of putting it next to this q5 made sense uh kind of answered so you just leave it as a blank just let them answer or do we want to we can do i was just adding two things to number five so one is cost and one is uh ease of use you want to add this exactly oh okay and then use exactly the same list for your next pain points question oh okay well that's a good idea okay yeah that's i think that's a good idea yeah yeah so basically they cannot achieve they cannot achieve this so yeah it's a kind of a here but i think what i have is probably a little bit more difficult to read so that's basically what that means you know have you run into any problems trying to meet those requirements that's what so yeah so can yeah i can use this because you add this one as an example yeah maybe again i think your accidentally didn't cut the ease of use you you didn't copy the ease of use item to the bottom of the second list oh okay i think it's just a question yeah okay and maybe this is also a ranking question so like if any of these are one of the most problematic of these for you in in ranked order okay and i think don't know it doesn't apply okay well if they have this one and a little difficult to rank because they could answer more than just one one thing yeah i guess if they have some terrible pain point we haven't got on the list they can write it in there and say this is no right yeah okay okay so they okay so um other comments on this looks final we have 12 questions basically i think we've done very well if we can if we can narrow down to 12 useful questions like this i think that's something people can answer okay it looks like they're useful questions okay so i will move some of those to the optional you know that's depending on if they want you then they can but they can skip them yeah okay then uh so we're okay with the survey now um queen and don't we have another item that you want to discuss right do we have you running out of time it's already end of the yeah i think we're out of time okay how we engage with the end user community yeah yeah yeah it's a pretty straightforward thing to have a thing uh and we can go there and we can ask a panel of end users questions okay i can send the details out to the mailing list it's pretty straightforward i think we should do it okay question is just when when we want to do it and i guess okay once we finalize maybe in a few weeks time once we finalize this questionnaire we can maybe use the opportunity to one point end users at the questionnaire and maybe even discuss some of these questions you know ask them these specific questions and get some debate going okay i thought i thought alex also has a concern that i think he said because he talked to uh shara and she was saying then maybe just need some representatives from the vendor side or something but not not like everyone on the list join that he was saying something like that so it's a thing that he uh wanted you to help make a decision over there but we can talk about that later i mean yeah first first finalize the questionnaire yeah let maybe send that out uh or yeah we can chat with alex uh either on this or or uh some other way cool okay all right thanks everyone so i will um modify this and then i can send to the can send it to the mailing list for more feedback sounds great thank you for putting it together okay thank you so bye now bye


The worst thing the narcissist can imagine. You always felt like something was not right with the narcissist. They were always behaving in a strange way. They did things that you didn't expect them to do. And you may have assumed that it was the result of some childhood trauma. You may have assumed that maybe they went through something when they were younger. So you stuck with them. You tried to help them. You tried to make them feel more comfortable. But then you later discovered just how evil they really are. You discovered that they know exactly what they are doing. It's determined beforehand. They're doing it deliberately and intentionally. They're intentionally hurting you. They're intentionally sabotaging their relationship. Because although they may love the benefits and conveniences that you're providing to them. They hate you because you're able to provide it to them.  They're very envious and jealous. They're emotionally unstable. Which causes them to suddenly become very angry and upset. It results in unpredictable behavior where you never know what they're going to do next. Which is why you cannot depend or rely on them. You cannot trust them because you never know what they're going to do. They're unpredictable. Anything could set them off. Anything could cause them to change how they feel about you. They could love you one minute and hate you the next. With no rhyme or reason.  But at some point you do start to make sense of it. You start to figure out who they are and that's when they begin to step up their game. They become even more manipulative. They become even more calculating. They will lie to you. They will future fake. They will promise something about a possible future in order to get what they want in the present. And what they want is for you to accept them and for you to not desire them to change. And they do that by making you believe that things are going to be different in the future if you wait and stay patient with them. And many of you do wait because you want to believe that things can get better. You want to believe that there's something greater in the future. So you wait for months or even years in some cases because you're expecting it to come into fruition. But then one day they ghost you. They disappear. They cut contact with you. And then you realize it was all they set up. They tricked you. They deceived you. And then it becomes clear to you that you were dealing with a narcissist even though they may be lying to you. Even though they may be denying it.  So no matter how much they tried to get you to trick your mind into thinking it's something else. The evidence is staring at you in the face. It's a done deal. And you might choose to confront them. You might tell them that they're a narcissist. But that's not going to solve anything. It's just going to trigger them. It's just going to make them mad. And then they're going to want revenge. They're going to want to punish you.  And they know that it's exactly what they've done to you. They know they've tricked you. They know they've robbed you and left you with nothing. They may act crazy. But they're not that far detached from reality. They are aware of these things. Which is why when you confront them. It will trigger them. It will make them mad. Because they know that what you're saying is true. They already know what they are. They already know what they've done to you. They just don't want to accept it. They want to push it away and act like nothing's happening.  That's why they do everything they can to hide it. But they're quite comfortable discarding you once you figure them out. Because by that time they've already used you up. They've already robbed you of everything that you had to offer. But what if they weren't able to do that? What if you got rid of them before they had the chance to take everything you have? That would be the narcissist's worst nightmare. That would be the worst thing that they can imagine. They can't imagine anything worse than that. Because they know you figured them out. They know you're never going to see them in the same way ever again. So what hope do they have of coming back? The narcissist knows when you're onto them. They know when you figured them out. They're very sensitive to certain changes in the environment. They know when you see them differently. They will even start an argument just to see how you react. Because it tells them where you are in the mind. It tells them what you're thinking and what you're planning to do. But if you don't react and you manage to get away without suffering any punishment or injury, it destroys them. It's the worst thing they can imagine.  They didn't finish using you up. They didn't get revenge because you disappeared secretly and unexpectedly before they had the chance to do that. And that's really the best thing you can do in these situations. Because nothing good is going to come out of confronting them or exposing them. That's not going to make them change. The only thing you can do is leave without letting them know what you're planning to do. Because it will only make them mad. It will only make them turn against you. And then they will try to beat you to the punch. They will try to get you before you get them. They will try to destroy your life as much as they can before you get the chance to leave. Because they know what you're about to do. If you've already warned them that you're planning to leave. Which is why you have to move in stealth mode. Where they're unable to detect your moves. Because they're very unpredictable. You never know what they're going to do to you. But whatever it is. It's going to make it difficult for you to move on and live a happy and fulfilling life that is free from abuse. Because they can't deal with the thought of you moving on and being happy. That's the narcissist's worst nightmare. They can't imagine anything worse than not being able to affect you. Thank you for watching. I hope this video resonates with you. Please like, comment, share and subscribe. If you would like to donate my PayPal link is in the video description. Coaching inquiries. You can email me at coaching.naxiv.uk. Thank you for watching and I'll talk to you soon.


Back in 2002, Microsoft created a wave of anticipation when they unveiled their ambitious plans for groundbreaking software. This software, poised to surpass the existing XP Black Moon and outshine other known programs, was said to be a technological marvel. Notably, Microsoft also made a bold declaration that it would introduce a paradigm shift by incorporating cutting-edge 3D graphics, departing from the traditional 2D visuals that characterized all prior iterations of Windows. Upon its official announcement, Microsoft's visionary project left no room for mediocrity. Steve Ballmer, the CEO of Microsoft, recognized the significance of choosing the perfect name for the software. In a quest for a title that would encapsulate the essence of this 3D revolution, Ballmer engaged his dedicated team in a creative brainstorming session. After a series of deliberations and suggestions, it was the ingenuity of the workers that ultimately prevailed. Amidst the discussions, Windows 3D emerged as the chosen name, capturing the essence of the software's groundbreaking graphical capabilities. This moniker signified a significant departure from the past, symbolizing the leap from the familiar 2D landscapes into an exciting world of three-dimensional computing. The selection of Windows 3D not only reflected the software's bold vision but also set the stage for a new era in personal computing, where immersive graphics would redefine the user experience. However as the release date drew closer, an era of an ease began to permeate the project. Microsoft's state-of-the-art Windows 3D was about to embark on its journey into the world, but peculiar events cast a shadow over the impending launch. Whispers of technical hiccups and inexplicable glitches within the software's development process began to circulate. Engineers and programmers worked tirelessly to resolve these issues, and yet there wasn't an iniable sense that something was amiss. Rumors started to emerge, suggesting that these anomalies were more than mere bugs, getting at an underlying mystery. The software's enthusiasts, who had eagerly anticipated the dawn of this 3D computing era, now found themselves grappling with growing uncertainty. Would Windows 3D fulfill the lofty promises of its name? Or were the strange occurrences an omen of an foreseen challenge is ahead, casting down on the software's future? As the release date loomed, the tech world held its collective breath, awaiting the unveiling of Windows 3D with a mix of excitement and trepidation. Fast forward to June of 2002, the long-awaited moment arrived with the official release of Windows 3D. The culmination of years of development anticipation and occasional turbulence, the software was now ready to redefine the landscape of personal computing. With the world's eyes upon it, Windows 3D made its debut, promising a leap into the third dimension of computing. Its innovative interface, powered by cutting-edge graphics, was designed to immerse users in a world of interactive possibilities previously unimaginable. The launched sparked excitement and curiosity, as users across the globe began to explore this new frontier. As users eagerly installed Windows 3D on their machines, they hoped it would not only meet but exceed the high expectations set by its name and the grand promises made during its announcement. The release marked a pivotal moment in the history of operating systems, as the tech world finally witnessed the realization of 3D computing on a massive scale. But however, as the initial euphoria of the release began to settle, a dark and unexpected turn of events took the tech community by surprise. The testers of this highly anticipated software found themselves grappling with an unprecedented onslaught of glitches and technical issues. Users reported bizarre distortions in the 3D graphics, with textures warping and objects appearing where they shouldn't. It was as if the software's immersive environment had taken on a surreal, unpredictable dimension of its own. Windows icons and menus sometimes froze, leaving users with no choice but to restart their systems, often resulting in lost work and frustration. The computer kept spontaneously rebooting, seemingly without warning. This not only disrupted their workflow, but also raised concerns about beta integrity. Files and documents mysteriously disappeared or became corrupted, leaving users in a state of anxiety and distress as valuable information seemed to evaporate into the digital abyss. And last but certainly not least, users reported eerie audio distortions, with static feedback and ghostly echoes emerging from the system's speakers, lending an unsettling atmosphere to the user experience. While those glitches persisted in their disruptive commotion, a chilling incident transpired within the halls of Microsoft. An insuspecting tester, overwhelmed by the relentless cascade of technical issues, suddenly suffered a seizure. Panic and urgency filled the room as colleagues rushed to assist, calling for medical help. This alarming episode sent shockwaves through the testing team, amplifying concerns about the software's stability and its potential impact on users. Fast forward to today, as I find myself employed as a software developer at Microsoft, with creating patches to rectify the persistent glitches that have haunted several Windows operating systems. In the course of my work, I stumbled upon a relic of the past, an old computer containing the elusive Windows 3D operating system. It was a time capsule of technological history, and curiosity led me to investigate. I decided to embark on a mission to address the very issues that had once plagued this enigmatic software. As I powered up the vintage machine, I was greeted by a startup screen reminiscent of Windows 98, emblazoned with the distinctive text, Microsoft Windows 3D. The Windows 9X flag, now rendered in a captivating 3D style, and even the startup sound evoked nostalgia, as Andy Clark's mood statement 15 emanated from the speakers, albeit slightly altered in pitch and tempo. The desktop interface of Windows 3D also bore a striking resemblance to its Windows 95 predecessor. Curiosity led me to fire up Internet Explorer to explore the digital landscapes of Windows 3D. Amid the browser's bookmarks, one link stood out. Free cartoons.com. Intrigued, I clicked on it, expecting to find a repository of classic animated shows from the 20s and the 2000s. To my delight, the website did, in fact, post a charming collection of vintage cartoons, transporting me back to the golden eras of animation. The nostalgic site of these beloved characters and timeless storylines was a welcome respite from the enigmatic challenges that awaited me within Windows 3D. Little did I know that these innocent cartoons, seemingly frozen in time, held secrets that would soon take a disconcerting and omnisctured, casting a shadow over the otherwise light-hearted world of animated entertainment. As the charming Mickey Mouse cartoon, fiddling around, released in 1930, began to play. I found myself immersed in a by-down era of animation. Mickey, in his classic attire, confidently announced that he would perform the finale to William Tell's overture. The whimsical melody filled the virtual room as he stood, violin in hand, preparing for his performance. However, my delight turned to an ease when Mickey's cheery demeanor abruptly shifted. His gaze shifted away from the audience on the screen and focused directly on me. He continued to blink, an eerie anomaly in the world of animated characters. Then, to my astonishment and alarm, he spoke directly to me, his voice a discordant departure from the cheerful Mickey I knew. I'd turn my back if I were you. Was all he said. The screen then cut to a black screen, shrouded in an unsettling silence. The cartoons' sudden departure from its light-hearted narrative into this black screen left me with a deep sense of foreboding, as if the boundary between the real and the animated had blurred in a disconcerting way. Then, as the SpongeBob episode, Plankton's army, began playing. I anticipated the familiar antics of Bikini Bottom's quirky inhabitants. The scene where Mr. Krabs explained, You never know what trick he'll use to steal me secret Krabby Patty formula. played out as it did in the original episode. However this time, a disconcerting deviation occurred. Instead of the usual robot incursion, an uncanny human-like figure entered the restaurant. The familiar underwater ambience remained in the background, but the figure's presence triggered a sense of a sneeze. For several minutes, this enigmatic character remained silent, and the underwater world seemed to hold its breath. Then in a raspy chilling voice, the figure uttered, Say you will try again, and you'll get to stay with him, forever. In an instant, it lunged toward Mr. Krabs, who responded with a scream of terror that echoed light none I had heard before. The chilling moment hung in the air briefly, only to be a broad play severed as the screen plunged into a black screen. The final installment, a veggie-tails classic, God wants me to forgive them, began as expected, but an eerie divergence unfolded as the narrative progressed. To unexpected characters, a movie star and a peculiar girl named Mary Ann, made unanticipated appearances. Mum asparagus, now dressed in a primitive caveman outfit, assumed the role of the movie star, while Mary Ann appeared with brown hair into ponytails. With earrings, a polka dotted shirt and blue pants. As the episode reached the pivotal moment where Larry defiantly questions. Oh yeah? Well, what do you call that? The atmosphere took a harrowing turn. Instead of approaching a harmless rock, the characters suddenly confronted a grotesque figure resembling a deformed human. Mary Ann, unfazed, approached Bob and Larry, joining the skipper, Bob the tomato, the professor, Dad asparagus, the millionaire, Archibald asparagus, and his wife, Labe asparagus. Suddenly the air was pierced by agonized screens, echoing through the scene as the deformed human loomed behind them.  Mary Ann, seemingly uninterred, attempted to control the ship, but her efforts were futile. The rest of the gang, desperate to avert disaster, tried to intervene, but Mary Ann persisted, steering the boat towards an impending catastrophe. In a surreal twist, the deformed human's gigantic hands seized the boat, curling it towards the familiar island from the original episode. The characters, now facing an unavoidable demise, met their fate as they landed on the ground. However, before the impact, the screen descended into a maelstrom of glitches and distortions, a disorienting swirl of chaos that seemed to spiral out of control. In a surreal twist, the mayhem reached its apex with the appearance of the dreaded blue screen of death, a sight all too familiar to anyone who has encountered system errors. But in a surreal twist, this screen was anything but conventional. Instead of the customary blue, it was a nominous shade of crimson, its hue imbued with an unsettling significance. A series of cryptic messages, like encrypted secrets, flashed across the crimson expanse. The significance of these messages remained elusive. The disorienting spectacle persisted for about 20 seconds, each moment amplifying my sense of dread, before cutting to black. Suddenly, after about 10 seconds of a disconcerting black screen, the screen began to regain definition. What came into view was profoundly unsettling. A chair occupied by a teenage woman, her wrists and ankles securely bound.  Her attire seemed eerily reminiscent of the background character from the Garfield and Friends episode, Bride and Broom. The woman, her eyes wide with trepidation, stirred to consciousness. She surveyed her unfamiliar surroundings, her voice trembling with uncertainty. Where am I? She uttered, her words echoing with a blend of anxiety and perplexity. After glancing anxiously around her unfamiliar surroundings for a mere five seconds, the woman's attention was abruptly drawn to the distant sound of approaching footsteps. A sense of impending dread hung in the air. Suddenly, Garfield, the iconic orange tabby cat who had unexpectedly appeared in the enigmatic Windows 2001 software with its unknown Garfield website, materialized before her. However, this was no ordinary Garfield.  Yet, the inerving absence of pupils in his eyes rendered him far from ordinary. Garfield's unbroken gaze bore down on the bound woman with a disquieting intensity, his featureless, pupilless eyes betraying no emotion or intent. The tension in the room was palpable, a neary silence weighing heavily upon the captive woman. With palpable desperation, the woman finally shattered the silence, her voice trembling with anxiety. Who are you? She implored. But Garfield remained obstinately silent, his inscrutable countenance locked in an unsettling grin. As yet to accentuate the inerving silence, the camera abruptly zoomed in on Garfield's face. His grin widened, and then, without warning, he burst into a maniacal chilling laughter. The sound echoed through the room, its resonance reminiscent of the stock evil last sound effects that could be heard in sound ideas. At that exact time, he then began to speak to the woman in a menacing way. You see, I used to be a Microsoft worker. One day, I stumbled upon one of those glitches in the software, and it was the last thing I ever did. It seized me, and I met my end, but I didn't just die. Something far stranger happened. I found myself trapped within the computer, and I became this. Garfield, I've been here ever since. Garfield's actions took an ominous turn as he retrieved a mysterious button and pressed it. In the background, faint foreboding footsteps echoed. The captive woman's gaze darted around the room in fear, her anxiety palpable. As the suspense mounted, the screen transitioned to a figure that was the very embodiment of nightmarish dread.  Dressed in a drab gray shirt emblazoned with the Windows 9X logo, the entity paired it with dark gray pants and unassuming brown shoes. What was most unsettling was the creature's humanoid features, including the nose and ears, adding an uncanny, disconcerting quality to its horrifying appearance. In that caroling moment, the grotesque figure wasted no time in addressing the terrified woman. In a bone-chilling whisper, it uttered just two words. With shocking swiftness, the ominous entity lunged toward the captive woman, poised to enact its horrifying intent. But as the tension reached its zenith, the computer abruptly shut down of its own volition. The screen dissolved into darkness, leaving only a black screen. Moments later, the computer's screen flickered back to life, its dark black background now bearing a cryptic message. Install the patches. Together, we can permanently end all of this. At that critical juncture, a conspicuous button materialized on the screen, bearing the enticing label, clicked me to install the patches. A sense of urgency and responsibility washed over me as I guided the cursor toward the button and clicked on it. Instantly the screen plunged into a black screen, and all traces of the digital world vanished. In that eerie silence, Garfield's voice, laden with dismay and fear, reverberating from the abyss, as he explained. What have you done? At that critical moment, an installation prompt emerged on the screen, introducing the indispensable patch, affectionately nicknamed Vigil, virus isolation and guard against intrusive lapses. The installation process unfolded over the next five minutes, a tense period during which Garfield's glitch-written form convulsed on the screen. His frantic warnings echoed, advising against the installation of the patches and urging their retention. Despite the unsettling cacophony of protests, I steadfastly continued, allowing the Vigil patch to fulfill its purpose. As the installation concluded, Garfield's digital presence began to disintegrate, his glitching form melting away. In a final desperate proclamation, he uttered haunting parting words. You will regret this. The computer gracefully initiated a restart, seamlessly transitioning to the familiar boot screen reminiscent of the software examined by the testers. The startup sound played in harmonious normalcy, and the desktop interface materialized without a trace of the prior enigmatic glitches. As I basked in the satisfaction of a seemingly restored digital realm, an unexpected visitor entered the scene, none other than Steve Ballmer himself. Well well. Looks like we've got a tech hero in the house. How's everything looking? So, everything appears to be back to normal. The Vigil patch seems to have done the trick. That's what we like to hear. Good job. We can't have our systems haunted by glitchy Garfields. Keep up the vigilance. And, by the way, if you ever encounter a talking lasagna, let me know. We'll do so. With a friendly nod, Steve Ballmer left the room, leaving behind a sense of accomplishment and a reminder of the surreal challenges that lurked within the digital realm. Several months later, to my surprise, I found an email in my inbox from none other than Bill Gates. The unexpected nature of this communication struck me, given that he had previously unveiled Windows 3D to the public even before its official release. The content of the email read as follows. Dear Mike, I hope this message finds you well. It has come to my attention that you played a pivotal role in successfully implementing the Vigil patch and resolving the anomalies within Windows 3D. Your dedication to safeguarding our systems is truly commendable, and I wanted to personally extend my gratitude. The challenges you faced were indeed unforeseen, and your ability to navigate through them with professionalism and skill has not gone unnoticed. Your commitment reflects the spirit of innovation and resilience that we value at Microsoft. I would be delighted to hear more about your experience and insights. If you have any recommendations or observations, please don't hesitate to share them. Your perspective is invaluable as we continue to refine and improve our technologies. Once again, thank you for your efforts. You exemplify the excellence we strive for at Microsoft. Best regards, Bill Gates. While the email had left me in a state of shock, it also instilled a sense of pride. A few weeks later, newspapers around me featured ads prominently showcasing Windows 3D. Headlines like Worker Saves Software adorn the pages, signaling the recognition of the efforts that went into securing and enhancing the system. Surprisingly, interviews about my experience surfaced on the internet, shedding light on the journey with Windows 3D. And to my amazement, fellow workers extended their congratulations, and some even presented thoughtful gifts as a token of appreciation for the role I played in safeguarding the software with the crucial patches. And thus, the legend persists that those venturing into Windows 3D might occasionally catch a glimpse of Garfield on the desktop interface, dismissing it as a mere glitch. Some may even notice my presence, later expressing gratitude for my role in preserving the software. To anyone daring to explore Windows 3D, a friendly piece of advice, install the patches before delving into its depths. You may never know what awaits around the next digital corner if you choose not to install those crucial patches.


From Las Vegas, Nevada, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re-invent 2016. Brought to you by AWS and its ecosystem partners. Now, here are your hosts. Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE here in Las Vegas for Amazon Web Services AWS re-invent 2016. This is theCUBE SiliconANGLE's flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the sylvanos. I'll be here all week. John Furrier co-founder of SiliconANGLE, my co-host Stu Miniman, and of course, Jeff Frick will sub in as well. And we're kicking off three days of wall-to-wall coverage of AWS re-invent, breaking it down.  He's been with us every year. We've been broadcasting, going back four years here at re-invent. Jerry, great to see you. Stu, kicking off AWS. We've got Cloudbeers. Cheers, Cloudbeers. It's good to see you guys. Yeah, have a good week. You know, Jerry, we're talking, there's over 32,000 people here at the shows that Andy Jassy is talking about. You've been here since day one. It's our fourth year doing the CUBE out of the five years of the show. So, first start off, what's changed? What's the same? Who are all these people showing up? It's kind of amazing walking around and just the sheer density of people of what's happened from the first re-invent it went to, the first one you guys broadcast to this one. Somewhere along the line, it went from this insurgent technology cloud thing to the de facto standard of how compute's going to be done for the next 10 years. And so, it went from something people ignored or disregarded to the standard. And it's intriguing to see this evolution from an insurgent to an incumbent. So, I want to talk about the marketplace right now because Amazon, Stu, I want to get your take on this. I know you're under NDA, you've got briefs, so you really can't talk about the announcements.  But the cloud game is pretty much won. Jerry, you said four years ago on theCUBE, it's not a winter take, it's a winter take most. Some will argue and I will say that I think the cloud wars are essentially over round one. Sorry, HP kind of tap out, Dell EMC kind of looking more cloud brokering. But we got it down to the top four players, AWS, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, IBM, that's five. So, you got the guys, it's like the NASCAR jockeying clustered up together. Who knows, it's going to slingshot to the finish line but you now have that winter take most formation. Yeah. What's the impact of that? Because you're seeing this show become, as Stu said, the next VMworld, some are calling it the essential industry event. You got a cross-section of entrepreneurs, so the entrepreneurship angle, you got developers, you got corporate. I mean, the game has completely changed. Your thoughts on that whole scene here and the impact of what this show means. I think it's amazing what you see with cloud versus what we have software and on-premise hardware. So before it was one box to roll them all, right? I shipped my server, my storage, my computer, or my CD of bits. But the beauty about cloud is you have this long tail of technology. There's 700 services they launched last year, 500 services they launched a year beforehand. And so what that means is everyone can find what they want on the cloud, be it Amazon, be it Google, be it Azure, or the rest, you can add new services with relatively low cost as an incumbent, Amazon, or Google, or a startup that you can find what you want. So that's how they can outmaneuver the on-premise incumbents. Stu, I want to get your thoughts because you did an intro video with Dave Vellante and your Wikibon off of headquarters in Massachusetts previewing the show. But you laid out some pretty interesting things. I actually borrowed some of your ideas on my Forbes post yesterday and then I saw the angle post where you start to see a new normal. I want to get both your thoughts on this where a new Moore's law kind of thing is developing where you're seeing the cost to zero, which by the way where it's being panned by all the media, turns out that they're running cost to zero but profits are kicking ass. So they're driving cost down and decreasing prices but at an increasing rate, increasing services and features. So this seems to be a new flywheel is developing. It's called a Blitz scaling in the enterprise, developer guys, thoughts on this dynamic because this is kind of a new cloud law that's developing. You call it the cloud law, the Q-Blaw or Chen's law or whatever you want it. The Jackson's law. The number of services being born on the cloud or the number of apps being born on the cloud is probably increasing at a faster rate than Moore's law. So you think about the number of developers that are being cloud native, that's more than doubling every 18 months, right? So if you kind of graph that rate of both services, apps and developers, that's just kind of this exponential curve which means that it's tipping and will continue to tip to be all cloud native pretty soon. Let's do your thoughts because one of the things that's in the competitive landscape, you can say, okay, I can see Amazon's strategy is to increase services faster than the competition but they're doing it faster than the customers can do it. So you now have two dimensions in this. Yeah, John, it's fascinating because how long does it take customers to understand and take advantage of these various pieces that are out there? Amazon keeps adding services. In the interview you did with Andy Jassy, he said, customers wake up every day, there's another three news, you know, significant features or pieces put out there and it's amazing. This customer base at this show, it's why I'm always super excited to come here. I tell everybody to come to this show because the customers are trying, customers are builders. I talked to Adrian Cockroft who was at the, recently joined Amazon. He was at the hackathon yesterday and he said the amount of people there that are doing, you know, creating Lambda functions and that really are embracing and doing this serverless piece, he's like, oh, it's going to be mainstream in 2017. I said, you know, heck, back on the East Coast, I know lots of people that have never heard of serverless but here, you know, they just gave out 25,000 of the dot devices so everybody can go program to them.  So, you know, Jerry said, you know, this is where new computing's coming and Amazon keeps creating these new areas and categories and, you know, keeps innovating. They're okay with, you know, really, you know, taking out chunks of their own business if it helps drive what the customers need going forward. So the question becomes how do you compete, right? As a startup or as Google or Azure? Question one, A, to discovery these services hurt them because now there's so many that you have to, customers can't keep up. So does, it's like finding a new app on the App Store, it's impossible now, to discovery hurt you. And then B, if you're Google or Azure trying to come for number two, number three, or a startup trying to compete, how can you wedge yourself in this kind of increasing doubling of services every year? I want to double down on that. First of all, folks watching, Jerry Chin and Gary Locke with Reed Hop and the team have a great thing on Stanford. Go to Google and YouTube and look at Blitzscaling. You talked about Blitzscaling in the enterprise, not just for consumer. So I want to bring this up about competition because this now has an impact to the, not only the entrepreneur, but to the startup because it's, and my thesis is this, and that's what I'm watching, I want to get your thoughts. I'm usually not a doom and gloom alarmist, but I am really nervous that the startups are going to implode because Microsoft, IBM, Oracle have huge sales forces. So I think we're swinging through the days of startups that have to ramp up their field presence, which is really difficult to do. So you bring up distribution. Is there a flaw in that argument? What's the angle on that? Because if I'm a startup, I would rather align with AWS than Azure or Oracle because unless they're going to carry me along, but you're playing second fiddle, where's the disruption? Can there be a box.net now? Or is that now kind of, is there a ceiling there now? Thoughts? So first, let me break down in three areas. One, you're absolutely right. We talk about product market fit. I talk about product go-to-market fit. And the reason why go-to-market fit matters because distribution as a startup versus incumbents is really all you have is you have better technology. How do you get your app, your solution, your service to the hands of developer customers? So are you trying to build a direct sales force? That's hard. That's expensive, right? You got Amazon that owns a lot of developers on the credit cards. You got a large sales force in the incumbents. How do you navigate between the two? And so as a startup, I think you're going to see a lot of innovation in the go-to-market area. We always see innovation technology. We always see innovation on new products. We're going to see some innovation on go-to-market. Technology is like owning the developer directly. So if you own the developers, you're ahead of Amazon, you're ahead of Google, or ahead of Azure, ahead of the rest, or ahead of VMware. That's kind of a powerful audience. But there's other ways to think about partnering with these guys, right? And use the Judo strategy. How do you use Amazon, or Google, or Azure, Oracle's weight for you to kind of Judo ahead? That's a great point. So let's kind of tease out my own question here. So here's how I see it. So if you go frontal attack on the old guard in their channels, your second fiddle at best. If you think about it differently, kind of the cloud mindset, which I want to drill a few thoughts on, is that you can actually leverage the benefits of all the services. So the argument of bare metal versus the cloud, which is ramping on my Facebook page this past week, is like comparing the BlackBerry to the iPhone. Technically the BlackBerry has all these rich features and you can do all the stuff, but post-2008, I don't think anyone built BlackBerry apps, thoughts. And we have the same dynamic. I mean, maybe the metaphor a little breaks down a bit, but think about it. Is there a new way that's changing the game? So in terms of distribution, for sure, right? I think the BlackBerry versus iPhone analogy is developers stopped developing for the BlackBerry because all the users went to the iPhone, went to iOS, and so you go where the eyeballs are, you go where the users are. And so now your startup, how do you get to go where the customers are? Do you go with Amazon because they have more developers, more apps? Do you go with Azure because they have a lot more enterprise relationships? Do you go with Google because you think they have better technology? And so as a start, you've got to pick your angle and you've got to be best in class. It's not one right answer, John. It's not one right answer, but you've got to be careful like what product are you selling and how's that product going to match or go to market? Yeah, but you guys build at Greylock and this is a plug for Greylock. You look for a billion dollar opportunity.  You've got to think differently. So if I'm an entrepreneur, I'm thinking, okay, I'm probably going to be better off being part of the recreation, the innovation disruption with an Amazon versus a business deal. I mean, so that's kind of where I'm thinking about it. So I mean, let's tease this out, right? When you say you're better part of Amazon, for sure you want to, if you can leverage Amazon's momentum, that's great. But there's also other ways you can find leverage go to market. And leverage go to market is it can be open source, it can be developer self-service, it can be going through an app store, could be OEM deal with a server guy or another cloud guy or software distribution. The reason why people are super excited about cars or self-driving cars and IoT is because those are new nodes to bring software to your end users, right? So not just going through the iPhone, not just through Amazon, you can go through the phone through a smart home, a smart car or connected device. So I believe there'll be new channels of distribution that will appear like VR, like IoT, that'll be great. Jerry, one of the things I'm poking at this week is we were talking about the ecosystem. I mean, we're in the middle of this huge show floor, the diversity of companies that are here.   What do you see? What are your companies looking at? Let me ask you guys this, what grade would you give Amazon in terms of the ecosystem compared to like Microsoft in the 90s or Sun and Java in the 90s as well in terms of developing an ecosystem around them? Well, I would break that down into two categories. One is, depending on what year in the 90s you pick. Sure. With Microsoft in particular, they locked the developers down early on. And then the ecosystem kind of, the white space were filled in by the developers. So there was a huge opportunity to make money, not just as a feature, but actually standalone public company, we saw a bunch of those. So to me, I would say right now, if you go on that comparison, I give Amazon an A on the startup side because they have developer traction and they have tools coming out for developers because I could sling APIs and services around rather than building my own and then go in and do that. On the more mature side, I think I give Amazon probably about a C, maybe a C minus because they're a new territory. Yeah. Microsoft really didn't kick in until they had to seek server stuff and a lot of their server technology. So, Stu. Well, it's always, what's the job?  I mean, Microsoft did that well. The joke we always had is, go show me the largest booth at Reinvent and then go listen to the keynote and go see those people crying in their beer because Amazon just announced some service that's going to eat some of their business. I mean, Jerry, if you look at your old company, VMware, or even look at Docker, as to how do you partner and grow that ecosystem versus how do you monetize and make money? It's a tough balance. So I agree with John. It's a tough balance. Amazon gets mixed grades on this. It's a tough balance, but it's also, I think, an opportunity for startups and an opportunity for Microsoft Azure and Google because it's not a winner-take-all, it could be a winner-take-most. Those two are smaller but growing fast. If they take a more ecosystem-friendly approach, they can actually shift the balance of power to be more favorable towards them versus Amazon because you're right.  All right, Stu and Jerry, I want to get your take on the technology architecture that's driving cloud and talk about that vis-a-vis the stack wars that are developing. There's been rumors that Azure stacks have some proprietary features in it. You got Amazon leveraging open source, some say not giving back as much as they're taking. You got Google with technology advantage, not a lot of field or any kind of customer relationship experience. So you got these guys, they all want to change the game. They all want to move the goalposts and kind of make the ground a little bit shaky on Amazon. What is going to be the driver? Where's the cold war going on right now in the cloud? Is it Kubernetes? Is it Docker? You're in that with Docker, your core investment. A lot of stuff going on. A lot of posturing, your thoughts on- I actually think it's a battle between data and this Docker app portability ecosystem. First things first, all these companies are open, but kind of not open, right? Because they have their own flavor of these services. Like Lambda is their version of serverless. Once you start programming on Lambda, it's hard to move to Azure or Google Cloud Functions. And vice versa, once you're on someone else's serverless platform, it's hard to move back and forth. So they're open, but you know, open with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge. So I think the stickiest thing is, we're the data store, right? So I think databases, data storage is kind of ground zero of stickiness. So everybody wants your data to be S3 or Aurora. But then the countervailing force against storage and data, which is really, really sticky, we call that data gravity, is things like Docker that creates portability, right? So Docker inherently wants to be a portable application. Your data doesn't want to be portable, it doesn't want to be mobile. And so you have this push and pull, and I think those two have to come together to create a fully portable file. So first of all, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon, they're playing very different games. Like Jerry, I want to follow the data, I don't want to follow the applications. Microsoft has a big bundle of applications that they own. Citrix is a partner that does lots of stuff. Citrix Cloud lives on Azure. The Paz guys are all partnering across the board. They're going to talk to Pivotal a little later.  Yes, absolutely. Docker's going to help make sure that we can go across all of these environments. Amazon itself, first of all, your comment open source out of Google, Microsoft, and Amazon, Amazon's a far third. They're way behind. They leverage a heck of a lot of open source.  We wouldn't have Hadoop. We wouldn't have, there's so many things we wouldn't have at one for Google. Microsoft over the last few years, phenomenal what they've done with open source after being Microsoft. So do you think it's going to be an open source revolution? I mean, open source is now tier one. If you take that argument further, Amazon keeps winning. You can see an alternative universe open source that rebels against Amazon. Thoughts, radical idea or not. I wonder, you know, Amazon, the more I hear about what they're doing, it's they leverage open source and they put it in their environments, but, you know, they're building their own, you know, vertical stack for a lot of it and it's all these different tools and they've got APIs for all of them, which makes it easy to leverage and use, but it's not as open. Amazon's track record is to innovate, take what's already built and make it better. If they did it with Hadoop, they're going to probably do it with Kubernetes and other stuff you've seen. If they continue on that track, that is going to essentially bring a real negative sour taste in the open source community. Because that would be a case for revolt. That's my argument. That's my radical view on this. It is, the pendulum was swinging back and forth, right? So I think, if you take your Microsoft analogy from the nineties, with the .NET and Windows ecosystem was too close, people moved towards open source. Look at the browser wars, right? IE was closed and dominated and you know, in that tension came Firefox and Chrome, open source and newer platforms. IE became bloated. If you look at Chrome right now, it's becoming more bloated every day and it's feeling a lot like IE. Guys, we're going to break, but final thoughts, we're getting the hook here. We've got a lot of stuff to get in before six. The James Hamilton talk tonight should be good. Stu will be there. We've got exclusive interview coming up on SiliconANGLE on that. Real quick thoughts on what's changed the most in your mind in the Amazon web services re-invent. You guys, comment on what's the most impactful, relevant change that you'd like to share about this event. I think, well, overall one, clouds become the first thing, the first place to go to, not the second place to go to for technology. And number two, to your last point, I think that the power of cloud and the economics of cloud means that it's not our winter take all, it could be winter take most. And because of the open source, because of new technology, developers will find a way. So I'm an optimist that we will be able to make data applications available throughout the cloud. Stu, outside of the numbers, the growth has been phenomenal from handful of thousand to 32,000. Your thoughts on the most relevant thing about this event? So for the last few years we've been hearing, oh, it's still day one in cloud. I don't think anybody would argue that we haven't crossed the chasm. It's here, the enterprise is definitely embracing a lot of it, I'm sure in the keynotes we're going to see some real big name. I don't know what customers are going to be talking in the keynote, but every year they put up and it was like, wow, here's GE, here's big banks, here's all these companies that are like, I'm getting rid of my data centers and I'm going to public cloud and customers that I talk to, it's a hybrid world, yes. And I think we will hear a developed nuance from Amazon as to how they live in that hybrid world. We haven't met VMware on Amazon is something coming next year. Azure staff, we'll see how that plays in, what's going on, so it's really interesting times and definitely kind of feels like the center of the universe this week here in Vegas. Great job guys, thanks a lot. Of course they're taking the cube law which is pump out more services, more content than the competition. That's Amazon's services model, great stuff, new way to do things, new mindset. Jerry Chen, thanks for joining us on the opening segment. Cheers, here's to cloud beers, hashtag clouds beers. We'll be right back with more after this short break.


Hey, I'm TenTastic. This is React Holiday 25 day crash course through React. Today is day number 22. And I want to show you a pattern that I've seen quite a bit with context and use reducer. Now, right now we have this Pokemon context provider, and it's providing just the Pokemon to this Pokemon component. That's fine, but where this gets interesting from an application standpoint is when we pass both the data and the method of updating that data. So the Pokemon and then the dispatch function. This is a lot like Redux. It's just a reducer on context. So how do we do that? Well, first of all, we're destructuring all this stuff right now from use reducer. We don't want to do that anymore. We're just going to call this something like state reducer. And then down here to like prevent a lot of rework of this component, I can actually just do let face what we had before and set that from state reducer. OK, so that's just to prevent from having to rename a bunch of stuff in the component. But now I have this full state reducer that I can pass to as a value on context. So state reducer, pass that along. I will need to update my Pokemon component, which is using context. And I destructure this object the same way that I would if I was pulling it off of use reducer directly. So I know this first one is state. And so I'm going to structure that, get the Pokemon name. And this is actually one more level deep. So we'll do. That and then if I want to dispatch actions, I can actually take that function off as well. So I'm not going to do anything because we don't have enough time in this video, but you can play with it in as an extra credit. And let's see if we did everything right. We did. So now we have this really cool thing where we have a context provider and we're providing a state reducer. Super awesome. I've seen this kind of referred to as a controller component, but really it's just a reducer on context.


Today, I have the pleasure speaking with Todd Shapiro from Red Light Holland. How are you today? I'm very good. Thank you, Tracy. Thanks so much for having me. So why don't you just tell us what was the catalyst for you taking Red Light Holland public? Yes, so it's been in the works for about nine months behind the scenes with some incredible founders. We had this idea. I'd started researching psychedelic drugs only a few years ago. When hearing terrible reports of things such as suicide and depression and anxiety, and of course I can't make medical claims and I'm not here to make any medical claims, but through deep dives and having experienced suicide within our family and reading a little bit more about I discovered these alternative medicines that people were promoting and advocating. And for me, I just as a former radio host, I sort of did a deep dive and learned a lot more. As I brought up these conversations to some of my other founders, we had started discussing the truffle in the Netherlands that this is actually a legal product within the Netherlands market and it's sold in over 400 smart shops currently. And so we thought, hey, here's an opportunity after and again, much more of a deep dive to have a path to profitability in a company that could put out a product and I'll get to the product in a moment and I'll get to the responsible use side of the product and as well have a medical play down the road. So it was sort of a way an entry point. So really under the red light Holland umbrella, we have two divisions that will stream down. We have our red light rec and then our red light health. And we're starting off with the red light rec, which is sort of opposite from cannabis, if you think they went medical first rec second. Our plan at red light Holland is to do is to do it the other way around. Okay, so my audience, of course, is going, whoa, Tracy psychedelics. Okay, where are we right now?  Yeah, it's a multi-billion dollar market at the end of the day for sure. And that's what I think a lot of the medical side of this industry is banking on indeed. Like I said, for red light Holland, we're product based, we're a premium brand. The red light truffle will be available in smart shops and we potentially could even have products within the smart shops and on an advanced e-commerce platform by the end of Q3. So for us, let's get into the market that way. But while we do that, we plan on setting up a facility that we hope one day will qualify for EU GMP certification. And that meaning we can grow a perfect clean room medical grade truffle that could potentially be tested. So when you ask me what the market size for this, if some of these other bigger, amazing companies that are looking to prove out great drugs that can hopefully be, again, be proven to help with depression, with anxiety, with post-traumatic stress disorder, with quitting smoking, you'll hear some of the pioneers talk about how they have little studies done and we're watching some of this FDA work go into place right now. We hopefully can supply the medical companies, but as well, we want to be able to have a product. And right now in the Netherlands, it's the most visited place. Of course, we're dealing with COVID right now. We assume that at some point things will open up again. And you think of Amsterdam. It's one of the most visited places in the EU year after year. And the residents, the local residents are becoming much more familiar with the truffle. And maybe this is a good opportunity, Tracy, for me to make people familiar with the truffle.  This is of the magic variety, of course, which has psilocybin within it. And the truffle is sold legally in the Netherlands. And that's the exact business that we're getting into. And we think we can capitalize with a premium brand feel and with this micro dose responsible use product. That's how we plan on entering the marketplace. And that's what we plan on really getting behind because we believe that people who micro dose, again, I can't make medical claims here yet. This is what I can say in my opinion, because I've tried the truffle as a micro dose when I went and traveled in the Netherlands. For me, it helped with anxiety. It helped open up my mind to creativity. It helped me live in the moment. It helped me connect, have no ego. That's a tough thing for someone like me, Tracy. It's a really, you know, again, in my opinion, need experience. And we look forward to promoting responsible use. Okay, Todd, one thing I have to tell you is I'm so impressed with the management team that you put together as you hit the street. For someone who's new, new to the capital market street, of course, you're a successful entrepreneur. I don't think anyone who looks you up is not going to be able to identify that quickly. But can you just talk a little bit about who you put together in your advisory board as you hit the streets? Yes. So right out of the gate is the chair of our advisory board is Bruce Linton. And I think Bruce Linton's name speaks for itself. I've known Bruce now for a few years. We worked together. I was one of the brand ambassadors actually over at Canopy Growth for the Tweedline, hosted a lot of their shindigs. I had a great time with Bruce, got to know Bruce. And I think we have a nice mutual respect for one another. Obviously, I respect immensely what he's done to help elevate the entire cannabis industry. And I think he's sort of respecting what I'm about to do to elevate the psychedelic sector. Well, I'll tell you, Todd, if I had listened to Bruce, I wouldn't be interviewing you here today. So you're listing TRIP, so a trip on the CSE. Can you tell us what we should expect to hear? I personally found your merchandising component rather interesting because, you know, we're not going to be able to microdose here in Toronto or not any time soon. Who knows? Bruce is involved. Can you talk to us a little bit more about what shareholder should anticipate, say just coming out of the gate? Yeah. I'm all new to this, Tracy. So what I think they can expect is a very strong team behind this that is not looking at this as just a one day, what's happening tomorrow, what's happening the next day. I think this is a long-term vision for the company. We want to have the most famous truffle available first in the Netherlands and then obviously is decriminalization, legalization movements happen across the world. We want to be pioneers and we want to help promote and through careful claims about how we think we can break down some barriers. In fact, you know, you mentioned TRIP. TRIP, you know, we're going on a journey here. This isn't about opening week or where we start at and of course, it'll be nice to see it jump out of the gate. There's a lot of hype. You can see what's going on on Twitter. A lot of, you know, I get my phones blowing up, of course, you know, I think people are going to be really excited to see what's down the pipeline here for Red Light Holland. But at the end of it all, this is about running a business and this is about having the most popular brand of truffle in the world. So if you think of I'm a shoe collector, if you think of Nike's, I would say, you know, Nike or Adidas are the most popular brand of shoe in the world. I think we're in a unique position. A lot of people have not heard of the magic truffle. They've heard of the magic mushroom. So for us, the Red Light Holland name will not only be synonymous with a brand, but it'll also be synonymous with a strain like pushes to cannabis. So we think there's an amazing opportunity for a tour start to jump back in into the Netherlands and go to Amsterdam when they step off that plane. They're going to ask where the Red Light microdose is. They're going to they're going to they're going to hear about it. A different parts all over the world. We're going to create an incredible brand, an experiential play to we're going to be content. I create content. I'm good at that. We're going to create a lot of content, a lot of experience for our consumers. And if you can't be in the Netherlands, we still want you to feel a big part of our community. And really that community is all about connecting with people, living in the moment, having fun. It's all about equality, ending stigmas. And you know, the Red Light name, by the way, it's strategic. Granted, is there sex appeal there? Do people sort of associate red light with the district and everything that's going on? But at the end of it all, the Red Light district was about compliance, legalities, protection and paying taxes. You know, this we want to end the stigmas and break down these barriers. And that's what red light wants to do with the truffle and the magic truffle throughout the world. Well, I'll tell you, we'd love to have you regularly. Why don't you update us quarterly on what's happening in this particular market? And Todd, we're all looking forward to you listing ASAP. Thank you so much.  We're doing real cool tie-dye merch. It's coming out. We want this to be a real fun, loving company. We want to promote happiness, togetherness, and it's a time right now where I think everyone's a little bit trepidatious. No one really knows what's going on all over the world. It's confusing. It's sad at times, obviously, the distancing from your own family if you have a visit six feet. So hopefully we can do our best, especially in this time, to try and bring people together. Thank you, Todd. Appreciate it.