Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Katharine Noor. Today, my guest is Stephie Bow of In It eSports. Our topic is the metaverse, the future of eSports. Welcome, Stephie. Hello, Katharine. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here and to have a very good conversation today. All right. We'll dive right in. What is the metaverse? What's your hearing about this? Well, it's definitely like a word that has been tossed around a lot, as you said. And everybody has a little bit of a different definition for it. I can tell you what I think the metaverse is. The metaverse is an opportunity to do things in the right way. What I mean by that is that the metaverse concept is a digital world where people can transform themselves and transport themselves into it. And by being in there, you can recreate the world in a way. And it's like limitless. Right now, the possibility are like, if you can dream it, you can achieve it in the metaverse. And it's very cool. A lot of people are putting effort into it, and I like to talk more about it. All right. Well, yeah, I'm looking forward to having the most amazing avatar ever in the metaverse. So why is it important to eSports? Well, in a way, eSports is kind of like a lead up into the metaverse. Because if you think about eSports, there is a lot of opportunities in the way of gaming and participation and professional gaming. And it's all digital. So people, they are really involved with eSports. They already are familiar with this type of technology and this type of way of seeing a digital world, like the games that they are very much into the fantasy. That is also like a sort of a metaverse, right? Because it's a fantasy world where you go in there and play. So eSports is teaching us the basic of what it could be a metaverse world. Again, a lot of people think of the metaverse as this word out there. They don't know what it is. And that's totally correct. You don't know what it is because we are just in the infancy and everybody is trying to understand it and figure out a way to participate. Sure. And I think that people who are engaged with eSports would be early adapters because they are used to being in different kinds of fantasy worlds. And they're used to operating an avatar and creating avatars. Why do you think that the metaverse is such a hot topic right now? Well, I will say that it is a hot topic because it became way more public, you know, with Facebook turning to be meta now. A lot of more people are starting to hear this kind of word. But also, as I said, I think it's a natural evolution from the popularity of eSports. eSports is growing, it's becoming more and more a concept that is into household. People understand that there is competitive game and those fantasy games. So it kind of like a link completely together. So the word metaverse now is coming to everybody household and everybody is taking an interest in it. What led you to get involved with eSports? Well, my story is that I am Italian and I was a little girl that I had a dream to become a professional motorcycle racer. I was able to achieve that. I was able to bring home three world titles and then kind of like taught me the aspect of what it is to live the athletic life like as a professional level. I got hurt because I happened to eSports. So I had to kind of like a move from one side of the fence to the other side of the fence. So I ended up and started working into the motorsport industry. A couple of years ago, I was in Italy, visiting my family. And all of a sudden, I noticed my niece that she was spending three to four hours a day watching people playing video games. And I'm like, what's going on? I come from a generation where parents were like, go outside, play. You know, and I did my entire life as an athlete. And it was like a foreigner concept to me. So but it was intriguing. And I decided to dive in, learn as much as I could and put my passion, which is motorsport, together with this world of eSports. So that's how I got involved, how I started to explore. And for me, because of motorsport and motorcycling, it's it's it's a passion of mine.  So therefore, it's easier to understand than showing to somebody like a legal legend or a fortnight competition. So that's how I got involved and I love it. All right. And tell us about in it eSports and we can show your website, which, like I've said, I could probably watch that for hours. Yes, of course, the website reflected the passion, you know, like a car and motorcycle and there are games out there that are very, very technological events that especially the car game, where you can actually look at the game now and schools can use these particular games to be able to teach math and physics because they are so detailed that it's like out of this world like you can create engineer from gaming, right? So be able to capture the interest from people that they are going to school and they want to entertain the type of career. In it eSport now is a company that does a special events with the with the sim racing. Why special events? Because if you know a little bit about eSports, there is tons of a competition out there and tournaments. So me coming in only a couple of years ago, I saw there was almost like already saturated, you know, so I'm a person that really like to creativity to reinvent things. So I'm like, OK, we're going to do special events instead. So special events are all based on the fact of bringing people again, that they are not necessarily involved with eSports to bring them toward the eSports industry. And we're doing that with sim. And as I just said, the sim is relatable because everybody's been in the car. So the conversation is very easy to to start. All right. So let's show the video. Yes. Racing by the eSports is champion diversity, inclusion and equality with a unique event. Right off the bat, though, it's not a clearly confident here. Twenty three is Aaron Cowles in the comfort. Oh, look at this. I actually think Madison is getting a little bit more confident. Great practice session for Madison Packer. A lot of confidence, which it means they have missed the appropriate corner here. Liv Morgan, going to going to turn around here. Oh, you know what? We'll figure it out. Wow, what a practice session. How did it go? I think it went pretty well. It went good. Up currently, this is not supposed to do this. Hopefully, I get some beginners luck. First time I practice for like one day. I'm like, let me just race you to figure it out. Good luck, everyone. And then you're actually seeing some some fighting going on. We're seeing some great racing, you really are. Oh, God, practice in practice, practice in qualifying. The cars are gridded. It looks like green flag is in the air. Already three and four, Rachel. It didn't take long here. And we are all over the place. Now you're running order. Ariel is currently your leader. We've got a regroup. They're coming to the green flag once again. This is the exciting part of each race with the green flag in the air. They're all going to go sailing into turn one. Oh, Mele, already happening here. See, we want to see a few scratches. We're probably going to do it because it's stressful. And that would be it right there. I believe Madison Hammond just crossed the start finish line. Winning the inaugural Race Me event. Fantastic for watching. Well done. All right, Steffi, tell us about that video. Yes. So this was Race Me, which was an event where we put athletes and gamer for diversity and inclusion. So the concept was to show and demonstrate that people, if they come from sports or for in reality any career or any walk in life, they can come together and have a blast, you know, by playing on a sim. I mean, we did the same because it's relatable, as we said, multiple time now. But it was a super interesting event because we had those professional women athletes, there was Hope Solo, Ariel Power, Oksana Master. So all of them have a story behind like Hope is a mom. Oksana is a disabled athlete. Ariel is African American. So really to demonstrate that everybody can play and have fun together in eSports. So these are the special events that we bring to the public to to see that we can all play together in this particular one. It was funny because we needed to have NASCAR, race NASCAR drivers to be the coach of those girls. So because they are incredibly good in what they do, like soccer or basketball or the Olympics, but when they put it in the car, it was powerful because you see the emotion that, you know, like, I want to win. But it was their first time. So the NASCAR driver, they jumped in and they were the coaches and create this all feel good event. And it was very powerful to put different industry together and demonstrate that eSports is for everyone. So as an athlete yourself, how does the skill being a traditional athlete translate to eSports? Well, it does translate, especially mentally, believe it or not. Like when you are a professional athlete, mentally, you have so much pressure on you because you need to perform. And this is exactly the same thing that happens in gaming. Like when you reach the professional level in gaming, when you're going to be doing real competition with big prizes involved, it's the same kind of mentality. It's exactly what a professional athlete goes through. And to say we actually were able to demonstrate through RaceMe because here you have one point, say, oh, my God, I didn't even blink once, which is like something to do in sports. Sometimes, you know, you forget to breathe or you forget to blink. So it was very, very the same feeling, same with hope. But she said, I'm sweating so much that I feel like when I was in the changing room before the workup final, her heartbeat was so like up there. So those by hearing from the athlete, it's so cool because I demonstrate once again that eSports is actually physical, even though you don't move around necessarily, but it takes so much concentration that you need to really be in top shape to be able to perform at the top level.  But I do understand that that is very physically taxing. Is that your understanding? Oh, yeah, absolutely.  So in that way, you kind of have to wrestle around the motorcycle. You know, so you have to be able to move around 250 pounds of weight in the car. Yes, you are sitting in it, but there is a lot of component like back to the concept of the physical math. Like when you go fast around the corner, you're going to get the G force effect. So your body needs to be strong enough to sustain that force. So now a lot of people know that until they try.  But if you ended up going into a racetrack just to have a possibility to try it, you will see that it's very physical. So I could see having, you know, SIM type things in the metaverse that people could be driving race cars through the metaverse. What do you think about that?  But not only, you know, competing. So taking it even another step, right? So right now we are watching people playing in video games. That would be watching people in a new world playing, you know, like a digital sport. So, you know, like it would be super cool to see racing, but it can also be taken in a different way. The metaverse can become a possibility for kids to learn to drive. You know, like they can learn going there, have a sort of real life experience in a safe environment because they could potentially crash the car but not, you know, hurt anybody or themselves. So it can transform in so many different ways. So that person, maybe in the metaverse, will be able to learn how to drive and then participate in an event in the metaverse and continue their career. Do you think that other skills beyond driving could be taught and learned in the metaverse? Oh, absolutely. I think especially math and physics can be another thing that can be taught in the metaverse. You know, Leo can have a professor that can make a lesson into the metaverse and people in the metaverse can actually do experiment in there. In a way, I like to think it's almost an extension of what he's been doing already. We are doing for NASA, for instance, in the space station. The experiment has been made up there. Now you can do experiment in the metaverse. So really, like it can open up so many different things. And there is the beauty of it is that there is room for everybody.  Thinking also in this way, if you have to create a product, right? And you know all of the understanding of creating a product but the expense to making a real life. Now you can make it in the metaverse and test it out there. At a fraction of the time.  Right? All right. Well, you know, another thing that comes to mind is that we've come to find zoom. Paul's and and, you know, other video conferencing type platforms. We we are doing that on a regular basis. And I wonder if we will move some of that like school, work and pleasure into the metaverse. What do you think? Well, you know, like I have a little bit of this idea and concept, which I don't know if it's really what we want to have as human being. But thinking in this way, we can kind of clone ourselves, right? So if we have another version of us in the metaverse, I can take on a bunch of things that maybe, you know, you don't have time to do in your real life, right?  And then you have another version of you. So, you know, it can go in so many different ways, of course. But it could be definitely interesting to see how everything is going to evolve in there. And absolutely, having meetings in the metaverse world. Yes, it's definitely going to happen. Right. And, you know, we have seen things like Minecraft, OK, and teaching opportunities. And I could see where in a the metaverse, the classroom could go back to a place in history. Yeah, actually kind of experiment like their avatars could even be a historical figure. What do you think about that? Yes, like I said at the very beginning of our conversation, I think we're going to discover that we will have a chance to kind of replay history, but do it better and hopefully learn from the past and get a chance to do it in a new way. You know, and everybody together. I like very much the word, the hashtag word connected. We are all a word connected with each other. And we can we can all try to do good, which is something that unfortunately sometime we have forgot throughout the history of times. But hopefully, you know, with a new opportunity right there, starting blank, we might have a possibility to do it right from the get go. Sure. And I would think that this that it could, you know, you talk about the world together and when we're talking about diversity and understanding each other's cultures, I could also see that we could actually experience other cultures in the metaverse. Absolutely. It can be it can be also not that a new way to travel. Thinking in that way, you know, like you would be able to travel in different countries, you know, and be able to learn that culture. And maybe even pick the era of the culture, right? Because the metaphor is not linear, you know, it can be different eras so you can travel and then learn, you know, as much as you can, you know, by just having those kind of experience. I guess my my biggest desire from all of this is that it really becomes like the Internet to do. I will hate to see if there is a company that is going to want to own this. That would be taking away the freedom that the metaverse is set to to be like. So let's just hope that, you know, we're going to all work together to try to keep this for everybody instead of like a managed by somebody. Sure. And I do understand that a number of companies are working to create it. What what information do you have on that? Well, what I'm learning is that because it's a business opportunity, right? So so if you can sell it in, let's say, one thousand real shop. Now, all of a sudden you have a one thousand digital shop. As a business, you have double your possibility to generate income. So I see the business side, but I think if we have a party only that controls all of this, then it's not it's not anymore. That decentralized war that the metaverse is supposed to set up to be. It becomes just like one company or one government, you know, like taking all of this into consideration and dictate everything. I hope that the shaker and the movers right now, you know, they are in the metaverse, they're working, they're going to work very hard to make not that make it to happen and just keep it free and open for everybody.  But it has to be open, kind of like the crypto universe, right? So everything is open. Everybody can participate and it's not owned by a single entity. Will brands benefit from the metaverse? Absolutely.  You know, I think there would be the trendsetter to make that happen, you know, in the next 10, 15 years. So what do you think the biggest challenges are to the metaverse? I think it is still a conceptual argument right now. It's not because with people in human being, if you can't touch it, it's difficult to put it into word, right? No, I also put it into word, but like I understand it. That's the right way to say it. So, you know, it's still kind of like an abstract concept at the moment. But more people talking about it, more people just brainstorming and say, I wonder what this could be. It's what is needed right now. So everybody, you know, they have a little bit of an interest. Just go out to seek, you know, linking group, seek opportunity with on Facebook or whatever, you know, like and try to talk to other people. They might be like like minded and understand what this can all turn out. There is not a book that says how this is going to be. So it's up to us to try to make it in a way that we think is going to be good for everybody. So, you know, I think it'll be interesting because there will be people that are native to the metaverse where they were they were born after it was created and that is they don't even know what life is without the metaverse. But then you you're going to have the non native people and even the older generations that will just not get it and not understand how to how to enter it or like what it is of thoughts on that. Well, you know, it's kind of like a way of our life is right. I mean, there are kids nowadays that they never experienced a phone with the dial like this, right? They don't know what that is. So, you know, like it's it's just it's just like the natural life, you know, that is going to there's going to always be evolution. We are going very fast, you know, because of technology and it's going to be interesting. But I think it's always important to look at the younger population because they are the trendsetter of the future. So therefore, you know, like they are born, they will be born in the world where the metaverse is there.  And we're going to still continue to learn.  And if you want to stay in your ways, that's good, too.  Well, you know, and I'm sure a lot of people remember when there wasn't any microwaves or when there were black and white televisions and then before the internet. And and like you said, a rotary phone. And before we had everyone had a smartphone, you know, I mean. But what's interesting now is that technology is moving so along exponentially and very quick. And so what do you think the impact of the metaverse will have on the kind of more two dimensional internet? Well, I don't really have the answer if I would, you know, I would be like a millionaire because I would be able to predict the future. So I don't know. I mean, I really think that like ever thinking life, if you keep an open mind of what's happening, you listen, you know, that's the way the best way to approach it. Whatever is going to happen, you know, what we already know. I can tell, you know, but I think what is what the trend is going to be is like people are going to continue to learn and adapt. So whatever it works in one dimension, let's go there. It might not work in the metaverse and the other way around. But we're going to only discover it by keep doing and keep trying it. Sure. And do you think that the pandemic has influenced the growth of this or the inspiration to proceed with this? I think they made it faster, you know, like I think there were already people thinking about this concept, but they it was kind of like there. But now, you know, because of the pandemic, everybody was at home. It was like a such important time in history because people really needed to reinvent themselves, you know. So therefore, it kind of spirited this new concept. But like, what if we are stuck at home? And that's why, you know, like people start dreaming of a different world where they can actually be at home by experience stuff that they used to be doing in real life. So the matter is not going to take away, you know, from real life experience. We're not going to see people just with a headset on a VR set and it's in blocks and that's it. No, you know, but it's going to be an extra way to entertain and have experience and that you might not be able to do it, you know, in real life. Sure. What is next for Enid eSports? Well, we have quite a few things in the pipeline, but I'm not kind of ready yet to discuss it. So the best way it is to follow us, you know, like on the website that you can participate in the newsletter or you can find me very active on Lincoln. So if you go on Lincoln dot com slash my name, Stephie Bow. I'm always there, you know, love to meet with people and talk to people. And also Twitter, of course, everybody's on Twitter. So yes, so just follow follow us and we're going to come up with very cool special events that I think you will like. All right, fantastic, Stephie. And I hope I actually see you in the metaverse one day. Oh, I'm sure you will. All right. Well, anyway, thank you for being my guest today. And thank you for joining us today. Next week, my guest will be attorney Irene Skoll to doff Tadev Vassian. We'll talk about eSports litigation. See you then.


My name is Derek Casel, I'm a medical oncologist and director of medical oncology at Intermountain Healthcare. And my name is Lincoln Nadal, I'm also a medical oncologist and I am the director of Intermountain Precision Genomics for Intermountain Healthcare's Precision Medicine. And we're excited to talk today about this recent publication. Derek was the first author and I was the last author on this paper titled Precision Oncology, Advanced Cancer Patients, which sprues overall survival with lower weekly healthcare costs. And it was quite an effort, we learned a lot.  So this was actually a continuation of a study we did earlier where we took a lot of patients with advanced cancer and we took a group of those patients and we treated them just as we would normally just kind of through the standard process. And the other group of the other half of the patients we were able to take treatment and do this next-gen sequencing on their cancers to determine what genetic mutations their tumors had. And in particular, Mastan with targeted drugs that were without appropriate for those patients. And so those were those are our treatment group that received and took a group of patients who had advanced cancer. And we were able to take a group of those patients and sequence their tumors and determine what particular genetic mutations were in those tumors. And Mastan with targeted drugs that were available. And most of those drugs were all of those. And we compared that group with a select group of historical dates that we had in our healthcare to compare them with those patients who had gotten standard therapies. Yeah. Yeah. So we were really looking at those two cohorts. The one cohort was a precision medicine or targeted treatment cohort based on next-gen sequencing. The other cohort was control cohort. And then we analyzed their overall survival and the overall healthcare costs associated. The damage we have as an integrated healthcare system is simply that we have ability to look at all the costs associated cancer care from the drugs that we use, but also the labs that we order and the infusions that people get and the ER visits and the hospital visits and all the sorts of things that you're able to measure and track. You know, one of the hardest parts of this, I remember doing this, was finding matches for patients in those two cohorts. So we matched patients in the precision medicine cohort and the control cohort according to age, gender, diagnosis, and number of previous treatments they had gotten for their cancer. And ultimately, we found 44 patients that had those matches, but it was hard to get there. It was hard to find the control cohort. Yeah, the difficult part was trying to match their lines of therapy that they had seen previously. But we thought that was a really important part of it. A lot of the arguments against precision medicine has been that we use it on patients who are going to succeed or are going to do well anyway. And so this we thought helped to kind of teach that back here. So these are patients who are heavily treated and whether they were in the treatment arm or the comparison arm, they were heavily treated with patients with lots of treatment that they were receiving. In fact, if I remember correctly, I should say that. In fact, the average patient had over three lines of treatment. That's right. They made in bulk cohorts on average had received three treatments. The other part of this study that I thought was hard and this came out in some of the reviews is that we didn't sequence, we didn't do genomics on patients in the control cohort. We were just looking at genomics in the patients who were in precision medicine or target treatment cohort, and we used those genomics to guide their therapy. And the potential criticism, of course, is that, well, maybe these genomic findings are not necessarily predictive of response to certain drugs, but simply prognostic of that outcome because of the biology of the disease. And some of the reviewers actually said, well, shouldn't we be matching specific genomics? So a patient in a treatment cohort, if they have a mutation in the gene called K-RAS, then maybe the patient in the control cohort should also have a mutation in the same K-RAS gene. Well, that's almost impossible to do. You'd have to have tens of thousands of patients. So we didn't look at it on a patient-by-patient basis once they were matched. We then looked at it on a cohort. So how did this entire cohort survive with precision medicine compared to this entire cohort was treated with standard therapy, what did their survival look like? And what did we see? Yeah, well, and to your point, there are obviously mutations in science and research when you're doing a study like this, especially in historical case controls, you do have some limitations to that. And so that's a criticism that's fair, but to your point as well, and they're matching up mutations and mutations as well, and you need to have patients to be able to do it. But this present thing we found is that taking that into consideration using precision medicine to treat these advanced cancer patients, we saw a doubling of overall survival. So rather than six months, we got 12 months. And that's big. Well, oncology, we've seen drugs approved on last week in proven overall survival. So seeing an advantage of a six month proven in overall survival in some of the advanced cancers that we do, especially invasions who are so heavily pretreated where we wouldn't predict that kind of survival. So that was pretty surprising to see a doubling of their overall survival. It was nice. It's good news for patients. But then when we looked at their old health care costs, that was also kind of surprising because it was actually a cost savings per week survival, which is great because again, one of the big criticisms against precision medicine has been the cost, the cost of sequencing the cost of these targeted drugs. But when you take into account the overall care of a patient and some of the things we looked at to be considered surrogates, I think, for improved overall quality of life. Because what we really saw was cost savings went into reduction in our business, reduction in hospitalizations. The ability to take some of these drugs by mouth at home. So patients are home about people that want to be around rather than at hospitals and clinics and stuff. We had to normalize the cost because some patients treat and cohort live so much longer that, of course, the cost more to keep those patients alive. So if you normalize health care costs to a week of survival, then we saw an almost $800 savings per patient per week of survival using precision medicine. I thought it would be a lot more expensive to use precision medicine. So I didn't see that coming. That was kind of surprising. So that was inclusive of all the cost associated with sequencing and part of the drugs and associated with that. So I think it's a really good look into the overall perspective of the cost of care of the patient. To your point, we had to normalize those costs. That's an important concept that I think that, for instance, it costs more money to treat people with dialysis than to let them die of kidney catheter. So that's always going to be kind of an argument. It's always going to be something that's just cost-assisted and kind of based out to make those conversations. So I think those are important things to move to the message that was the cost of health care patients. But nevertheless to see something that was thought to be, that thought was going to cost so much more money actually to resolve the cost savings than normalizing this big deal. Yeah. I mean, the extreme skeptic would say, well, you're saving money per week in the precision medicine cohort, but they live twice as long. So therefore the overall costs are higher. And we actually, that is true, but to your point, that's the entire principle of medicine that does cost money to keep people alive. If you were to walk out the door and be hit by a bus today, we would say, but it would also be a lot cheaper to take care of you than if you were to survive another 40. And that's, of course, an extreme example, but the extreme skeptics like that out there, I think that's, that's a challenge to help the overall costs of our issues. So I think the summary statement from this paper is that we saw in the precision medicine cohort a doubling of the overall survival actually overall savings in healthcare associated costs, excuse me, per week per patient savings in overall healthcare associated costs. And, you know, it was really fun to, that's kind of a weird word to use in this kind of study, but it was fun to do an analysis that included not only survival and genomics, but also costs. Honestly, we haven't seen very many papers out there that include not only survival, but the healthcare costs. And we've gotten a lot of comments from about that. And it really is because it's the unique situation that we live in as an in great healthcare system that has, you know, access to, you know, all the ER data and all the cost data and the amount to sort of generate that amount of information. So, so this unique place to be, you know, I think that, you know, obviously it's not a very good stage for me. It's one of the things that we are looking at now is really moving out precision medicine in the life care. So rather than waiting until somebody is really advanced and they fail a three or four treatment, would it make sense to do precision medicine or take this approach in some person? Yeah. The number one question that we seem to get when we talk about this study and our precision medicine in general is why don't we do this sooner? You know, as mentioned, we were, we were implementing these target therapies as like fourth line treatment missions. And why not do it first line? A lot of people even say why not do it in stage three or stage two cancers? I think it's hard to justify doing this in stage two or stage three cancers where we know there is an ability to cure. I think in those situations where you can cure an early stage cancer, we are obligated to pursue curative pathways. The patients that don't have a well described, well documented, proven curative pathway, then we can implement these strategies early. And I agree, that's where we're going in the future, right? That's one of our future times. That is, I don't think that it's far better to think of it that way. And I think the other thing that we learned by doing this in kind of our work in general and in our policy program is really, it helps to kind of outline the, kind of get you a roadmap of treatments for these patients. And so you always know what the next options would be. Another major future effort, this is becoming a current effort, is to take all of these genomic analysis capabilities, bioinformatics capabilities that we've been developing over the last five years and use them on some of our archival historical samples. We have in our possession in our healthcare five million, five million samples that have been collected and archived since 1975. So we're starting to pull some of those out and ask, you know, hypothesis driven questions about certain stages of disease and what were those patients outcomes like. And then do a genomic analysis and look for biomarkers that have gone domestic or that's the important part of it. It's coupled with the electronic number 12. So we know what the outcome of those patients are. We actually know what their family history is and what their, you know, tolerance of different therapies and their outcomes in regards to surgeries and those sorts of things. So I think that there's a real potential through that, through that project, through those projects, those efforts, through that in terms of asset. Oh yeah, through those assets we have at Interval Health Care to be really sort of answer some of those questions and be able to hopefully be a little bit more educated, it's smart and predictive about what drugs we should use in certain situations. We think that the answers to how we treat future patients are locked away in those samples. So any other future things we should talk about or earnings from this effort? I think, I mean, I think it tells us we have still a lot of work to do and a long ways to go. But I think it's certainly a start and I think it's just one that we're going forward to continue to answer some of these tough questions. Yeah, I mean I think we can glean from this that it looks like precision medicine may improve survival in the cost from shore and cost savings. I think it says something about the historical trials structure and that these large randomized phase three trials in precision medicine setting probably not feasible and we've got to be more innovating in our clinical trials. I think it says something about potential power of genomics in guiding treatment pathways for patients with cancer. That's exciting, that's good news. I mean, 40 years we've been trying to make progress. Since the war on cancer was declared in 1970, I've been trying to make progress and this is one of the advancing pillars in the oncology right now for how we can improve our industry. And we've seen, you know, it's always, it's always difficult to bring up anything that with a lot of patients that we have seen that we have been able to buy quality time. By no means do we think it's cured, you know, do we think we're getting closer? Yeah, do I think we are we closer to turning this into all the chronic disease? Yeah, I think we are. By no means are we there yet, but I think we're on the right path. Well, should we do some jumping jacks?