From Hollywood, the Hollywood Radio Theater of Maggie Phillips. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Ken Carpenter. Have you ever noticed one of those demure young ladies in the lending library of a small town and wondered if anything exciting had ever happened in her life or ever would? Well, in tonight's play, Miss Maggie Phillips has her entire life changed just by entering a contest. And as a star of this gay romance, we're privileged to present one of the finest actresses anywhere, Miss Dorothy McGuire. And now, Miss Dorothy McGuire, starring in Kathleen Heights' delightful romance, The Fall of Maggie Phillips. The Fall of Maggie Phillips began in the spring, but it's doubtful that anyone in Fremontville noticed its beginning. The talk in the small northern California town centered on the melding snows on the mountains, the apricot and almond groves in full bloom in the valley, the great profusion of violets on the lawns, and the greater confusion of walnut tassels on the sidewalks. For thirty-five spring, Maggie Phillips felt content to watch the snows melt on the mountains, the groves burst into blossom, the violets, the walnut tassels. But this year, well, as Maggie put it, there's got to be more. Did you say something, dear? I said, there's got to be more. Oh, I don't see a single book on the shelves I want to read. And, dear, you've mumbled something to the window several times now. Something wrong? Clara, you were thirty-five once, weren't you? Uh, yes, Maggie. I was thirty-five just...  Well, that's all in the world that's wrong with me. I'm thirty-five, I'm single, and it's spring. Yes? Well, Donut, I come alive in spring, too. Oh! Margaret Elizabeth! Oh, Clara, I'm sorry, I lost my head. Well, fortunately, I'm an old friend. It wouldn't do for you to say that to most people in town. Oh, you haven't confided this inner turmoil to anyone else, have you? No, no one knows my shame but you. Then you're in good hands, my dear.  Cecil and I were talking just the other evenings. We're not a bit sure that running a lending library is the right thing for you at all. I'd always hope for more myself. Well, thankfully, as head of the public library, Cecil felt for some time that you shouldn't read all the modern trash that's published. And I don't doubt at all that your inner turmoil is largely the result of your reading. Well, I have to be able to brief my customers. Oh, which reminds me, the book you ordered came in this morning. Oh, good, good! I was afraid I'd have to go home empty-handed. You did remember to put plain covers on them, didn't you, dear? Mm-hmm. And sometime when you and Cecil are discussing book lists, ask him what he thinks of Mickey's blame. Bainbridge smiled vaguely in reply and left Maggie to mumble at the window for a lending library. Just what she mumbled this time is not a matter of record, but it must have had some substance to it because only minutes later, Maggie bolded her little shop and took her inner turmoil to Netherton's drugstore. Hi. Black coffee, Johnny. Hey, that's bad, huh? Mm, it'll do until something worse comes along. I know what's the matter with you. Watch your language, young man. No, no, I really do. I've been noticing the last few weeks. What's the matter with you is it's Thursday. Thursday? Oh, it can't be. Not again. You see? Lately you get a Thursday look, and I know why. It's old Bainbridge. Cecil Bainbridge is not old. He's my age. Oh, brother, I walked right into that one, didn't I? Sorry, Maggie. So am I, Johnny. But I am right about the Thursday look. I think you're getting tired of having dinner with old... with Cecil every single Thursday night. Well, I don't know why. We've only been doing it for 10 years now. You see? I knew it. Oh, it isn't Thursday or Cecil. It's my fault, whatever it is. I haven't gone up fishing for a while. Maybe that's it. Wanna bet? No. Mind if I look at your magazines? Help yourself. This is what I need, Johnny. Two glorious weeks in Europe. Romantic France. Historic Italy. And the old world charm of the Low Countries. Sure. How much? Well, I can afford it. It's free. Well, you're kidding. Well, practically free. Oh, a contest. I insist on bulwark oil in my car because, in 25 words or less, nothing to it. Well, praise your things when that happens. Why don't you enter? Because I don't insist on bulwark oil. And besides, I couldn't win. Well, go on. You've got nothing to lose but your chains. You're a great comfort to me, Johnny. I'll take that magazine. Cicero was his usual self at dinner that evening. They went to the Fremont Hotel dining room as usual, sat at their usual table, and held their usual conversation during their usual meal. I don't believe the halibut's as salty tonight as it was last Thursday. Or was it the Thursday before? No, it was as salty. I don't remember.  It was a week ago Thursday. I think you're right. Well, anyway, I don't believe it's as salty tonight. I see the palm trees are here. Can you see the Maggie? That's her hat just behind the potted palm. See, sir, why should I use bulwark oil? I beg your pardon, Maggie? Well, what would be a good reason for me to insist on bulwark oil? I mean, if I were to say I insisted on it in 25 words or less. Well, I don't know. Must you insist? Maggie Girl, I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, well, it's just a contest. If I say that I insist on bulwark oil in the right 25 words or less, I might win a trip to Europe. Aunt Clara said you seem disturbed today, but I got the impression that it was over something more important than a contest. I'm not disturbed over the contest. I just think it'd be fun. Do you know anything about bulwark oil? Yes, it's a motor oil. First raid, as nearly as I know, comes in different weights, you know. By George, that reminds me, I must have my oil changed. I could do with some new spark plugs, too, I guess. And while we're at it, I might as well get the old battery charged. Come back, Cecil.  Well, I'll tell you what I do, Maggie Girl, as long as you're going into this thing, the whole way, as it were, I'd go to someone who knows about it. Well, that's what I've been trying to do in my own naïve fashion. You don't know about oil, do you, Cecil? Well, George, I don't. Tell you who does, though, hella Hawkins. Grubby, sort, but running those trucks the way he does, you know. Probably knows all about there is to know about oil. Hella Hawkins? Mm-hmm. What sort of him? Well, I really don't know him, but that's a very good idea. I'll stop and see him tomorrow morning. He's, uh, well, not our sort, you know. Don't know much about him, hasn't been here too long, but I guess it'd be perfectly proper for you to ask him a few technical questions. Well, of course it would be perfectly proper. Oh, no, it isn't that I don't trust you, Maggie Girl.  While you, I'd get the information from him as quickly and quietly as possible and beyond my way. Hmm, I wonder... Cecil, you're working yourself up into a state. I don't know. Might be the manly thing for me to take care of this entire transaction. Oh, you. I wouldn't want to put you through that ordeal for anything in the world.  Hmm. I don't believe it's as solid as it was last Thursday. And the balance of their Thursday evening together was... well, as usual. The new film at the state theater after dinner, and then Cecil drove Maggie to the old White House her parents had left her. And as was especially usual, he gave her a cheeky hurried peck and hummed all the way down the walk to his car. As he got into the car, Maggie Phillips was surprised to hear her own voice saying, There's got to be more. Mr. Hawkins, do you have to just lie there on that roller? Rather tall, aren't you? What about? Could you could tell me something about bulwark oil? It's a good oil. Is that all? What else do you want? Well, things like what makes it a good oil and why I should use it and... You got a car? Yes. Use it. It's a good oil. I'm not saying this very well, I'm afraid. Um, look. The bulwark oil company is running this contest and I thought I'd enter it and... Did you ever figure your chances on a deal like this? Oh, no, but that's not very important. I don't really expect to win. I just thought it might be fun. Fun, huh? Well, I... I thought it might be. Well, I don't know. Yeah, let me see the magazine. For years, weeks in Europe, all expenses paid for two... For two? Well, that's funny. I've never heard of that before. It isn't, huh? Well, it says right here on the page. I see it does. Well, let's see. Here's the deal on bulwark oil. It's a good oil, has endurance, stands up well. I've used it in the trucks for a long time. The pistons don't stick. No? It doesn't plug the rings. It doesn't clog. Got pretty high detergency. Never have any trouble with corrosion or rust. A lot of heat resistance. Good. There. Any more questions? Well, just one. What does it all mean? It's a good oil. Oh. Oh. Very much, Mr. Hawkins. Certainly been very kind. I guess you'd better get back to work now. Anything else you ought to know? Yes. When I rolled back under the truck, I noticed you've got good legs. It was a good oil. We will continue with act two of the Hollywood Radio Theater. Make a friend and you make an ally. There's a thought for you to keep in mind as many another American has. Sam Higginbottom knew the value of that thought. Hearing of a missionary's work in India, Higginbottom decided he wanted to do something to help the poverty-stricken uneducated natives, too. His idea was to stay there a few months, then return to America to finish his theological studies. But after a year in India, he decided to stay on indefinitely to help the people till their soil and improve their crops. For five years, Higginbottom and his wife, with their limited experience in farming and agriculture, worked hard to modernize the farming equipment and methods in India. Then Sam returned to America to study scientific farming. He interested many people in his Indian project, and by the time he received his Bachelor of Science in Agriculture, he'd raised $30,000 donated by fellow Americans in every walk of life to continue his work in India. When he returned there, Brahmins, princes, the untouchables all shared equally in Higginbottom's knowledge. In 1928, his Princeton classmates paid his fare back to the states to present him with a Doctor of Philanthropy degree. And in 1940, he was named Doctor of Human Letters. Among Sam Higginbottom's keepsakes is a letter written by a personal friend in India. Your work is more than simple help. It is good nation-building. The letter was signed Mahatma Gandhi. How well Sam Higginbottom had proved that by helping others, you help your country. Now act two of the fall of Maggie Phillips starring Dorothy McGuire as Maggie. The little town of Premontville continued to concern itself with the spring unaware that forces were slowly being set in motion that would ultimately bring about the fall of Maggie Phillips. Only the most astute observer would have noticed the faint flush on Maggie's cheeks, the glimmer of a new light in her eye. Even Maggie herself was not wholly aware of it as she busied herself those next two days. I insist on bulwark oil in my car because it has good legs. Oh, darn it.  I insist on bulwark oil in my car because my resistance is low. Oh, nuts. Because the man I ask stands up well. Oh, goodness. Oh, good heavens, no. So self. Oh, Clara, I'm so sorry I didn't see you. Well, I hope not. I sincerely hope not. My goodness. Are you all right? Well, I believe I am. I might ask the same question of you, my dear. Oh, I'm fine. I'm just disgusted with myself, that's all. Did you finish this Filane book? Yes. Oh, my. My, they were entertaining. Such lively episodes. I really do enjoy... never mind changing the subject on me. Maggie, I want to talk to you. Now, Clara, I'm just fine. I just watered up a piece of paper and threw it. But why? Why? Now, that's the important thing. Now, this. When I was in here a few days ago, you were talking to yourself, saying, well, I might add some rather startling things. Now, today, throwing this at paper. I don't want to pry, but you may as well know I'm concerned about you, Maggie. Right, Clara, there's no need to be. This girl is concerned too. Perhaps it isn't my place to tell you, but I know my nephew very well. He's as nervous as a cat these days. Well, I'm sorry. I wouldn't want to worry Cecil for anything. Or you, certainly not intentionally. Maggie, you didn't mention anything to Cecil about your, uh, uh, well, you know, my wife. You know your, uh, well, your inner turmoil. Oh, good heavens, no, no. If Cecil's worried, it's probably because someone has a book that's overdue at the library. Well, I'm sure I don't see the humor in the situation, Maggie. If you don't want my counsel, my help and your problems, I certainly won't burden you with my opinion. But it does seem to me that you're giving way. Throwing things and all that. Now, Clara, dear Clara, it's this simple. It sounds sort of silly, but I'm trying to write a contest entry that will win me a trip to Europe. I insist on bulwark oil in my car because... Oh, yes! I've seen that in the magazines. That's what's got you in such a state? Mm-hmm. So there's really nothing to be concerned about? Well, I'm glad it's nothing serious. Does Cecil know about the contest? Well, I told him at dinner the other night. Well, then that's probably what's got him so nervous. I'll bet anything he's trying to think of something clever for you to say. Oh, and here I was worried about you. Well, now you know. Oh, my. Hi there. Oh, well, for having sakes. It's Mr. Hawkins. Well, I must be going, Maggie. You want to look after your customers. Oh, stick around, lady. I'm no customer. No, no, of course not. He's Mr. Hawkins. Oh. This is Miss Bainbridge. Hello, Miss Bainbridge. Mm, young man. Hawkins, uh, Hawkins, uh. Don't believe I know any Hawkins here in Fremontville? Well, I don't believe there are any except me, and I'm new in town. I've only lived here eight years. Oh. I didn't think there were any Hawkins among the old families of town. Uh, can I do anything for you, Mr. Hawkins? Oh, I-I don't know. I-I figured maybe I got a little flip with you the other day, and I thought maybe I ought to apologize. Whoa. Oh. Oh, no. My goodness. I-I can't imagine what made you think that, Mr. Hawkins. I, um, Clara, I asked Mr. Hawkins about bulwark oil. He uses it in his trucks. I thought maybe he could help me. And could he? Oh, my, yes. He was a big help. Well, then there's certainly no need to apologize for helping someone. Well, that's what I say. Certainly no need at all. Well, I'm glad to hear that. You've got more spirit than I thought. Uh, you see, Miss Bainbridge, in addition to telling her about oil, I also told her she has good legs. Oh. Oh, Matt. Oh, Matt! Well, you never know. Some dames go for this type comment, and some don't. Good afternoon, Mr. Hawkins. Yeah, I think it's a fine afternoon. Honestly, Miss Bainbridge, wouldn't it have been worse if I'd said she had bad legs? Oh! Well, I never, I, I, I never in my whole life. Goodbye, girls. Oh, Clara, I don't know what to say. Well, you, you don't have to say anything, my dear. Just on bulwark oil in my car. Because I... There was quite a pile of wadded up paper in one corner of her lending library. But long toward evening, Maggie settled on a likely set of 25 words or less, and marched them straight to the Fremontville Post Office in time for the evening train. Well, not quite straight to the Post Office. It was a matter of complete coincidence that Heller Hawkins' trucking establishment was on the way. If you can rot yourself out early enough. I'd just like to say I think your conduct was entirely unnecessary. Uh, hold it a minute, Jim, will you? Lady, please, I'm on the phone. Oh, I beg your pardon. Oh, but I'd, I'd simply, I'd simply think your conduct was quite out of line. Good boy. Well, set the time, will you? There's a small pick up here with a bad gasket. I'm not going ahead. Keep humiliating me. You're just unspeakable. All right. Five it is. I'll pick you up. You bet, boy. Goodbye. Okay. I'm unspeakable. Clara Bainbridge is a respectable maiden lady. She isn't used to talk like that. You want to know something? There'd be a lot less respectable maiden ladies and old families if they heard more talk like that. That's not my point. Now, just hold up a minute, will you? Let's review the bidding. I'm working under one of my trucks, remember? Yes.  I tell you, you've got good legs. Will you stop saying that? And for some reason, this makes you nervous. I think I know the reason, but we won't go into that. I take it over and I decide to apologize. So the old doll looks down her maiden nose at me and gives me the old family routine. She makes me squirrelled, I make her squirm. We're all ebbs. Now you barge in here and lost up a friendly phone contest. I did not barge in here. I happen to be on my way to the post office and I just... Oh, you're mailing in your contest entry? Well, perhaps I am. Yeah, well, let me see it. No, I... Well, no. Okay. Only you don't know anything about oil and I do. Never mind. I just came by to tell you that... That I'm unspeakable. Yes.  Hey, there's an idea for you. I don't want to hear any more of your ideas.  Oh!  You are absolutely impeccable! This time Maggie marched straight to the post office. She walked directly to a table where she tore up her contest entry. From her purse she produced a fresh sheet of paper on which she began to write in a fine, firm hand. I insist on bulwark oil in my car because I know I can depend on it. I'm a single woman. I have to be sure. She was just coming down the steps of the public library as Maggie drove past on her way home from the post office. She stopped because for the first time in a long time it seemed rather nice to see him. Oh, Maggie girl! My gorgeous, good to see you. Oh, it's nice to see you, Cecil. Can I give you a lift? Oh, thanks, no. Have my car. Oh, Cecil, it's a beautiful night. Let's do something crazy, like drive to Red Bluff or Soda. Restless, aren't you, Maggie girl? Well, I haven't put a name on it, but come on, let's do something wild and free. I just mailed my contest entry in and I think we ought to celebrate. Well, I... Oh, no. It's my cribbage night with Aunt Clara. Oh, but couldn't you? Oh, you couldn't, could you? No, I couldn't. Sorry, Maggie girl. Now, this contest business, you're not going to count too heavily on it, are you? No, Cecil boy, I'm not. Because it would be fun and exciting and totally unexpected. And that sort of thing just doesn't happen to me. That pretty much was the spring of Maggie Phillips. As the days grew longer and hotter in Fremontville and the towns interest moved on to house coolers and summer things, Maggie forgot about the contest. In the pattern of Thursday night dinners with Cecil, black coffee at Netherton's drug store and smuggling Mickey's Palaine books in plain covers to Clara, Maggie forgot about Heller Hawkins, too. But sometimes, when she was alone, she'd hear herself saying, There's got to be more. Then Maggie hung a sign on the door of her lending library one morning in early July. She left the key and instructions with Johnny at the drug store. Something over an hour later, she was standing knee-deep in the middle of a swift mountain creek. Maggie carefully cast upstream closer to Silver Doctor's housefly landed near a likely-looking ripple. And then as the fly drifted downstream toward her.  I know you're there. Then suddenly there was a flash as a beautiful rainbow saw his lunch floating gently past and he went for it hook, line, and sinker. That's the way. Slowly, carefully, she took in her line, bringing the trout closer and closer until she was able to net him. And as she removed the hook. Hey, you're cute. Are there any more at home like you? Maggie looked at him. He was a beautiful catch, brilliant in the morning sun. But her smile faded as she dropped him into her creole. Don't look at me like that, honestly. This hurts me more than it does you. It was a matter of minutes later and several more expert casts upstream when Maggie dropped her second multicolored trout into the creole. Now, we're beginning to understand each other. It was going to make the fish story later. But the morning continued to go that way. Cast, wait, strike. Cast, wait, strike. And the quiet pools on rocky ledges wherever the speckled rainbow beauties were, Maggie found them with phenomenal regularity. She was one trout under the limit by the time the sun was high and wonderfully relaxed and at peace when she cast off a high bank to a half-sheltered pool below. We're on something. Come on. Come on. Things are going so well. Don't let it be him. I want to see the guy who thinks blind casting is... Oh, is it figured? I was going for the limit. And this is it. Yeah. Well, I told the boys I wanted to go trout fishing the worst way. Oh, but how could I? I put you into the scene. Because I had just attained the most remarkable balance of my entire fishing career until you got your hook into me. And that chipped it. Well, I... Sorry.  Well, you know that much anyway. Oh. Yeah. Here's your hook. I don't think the fly is damaged. Thanks. Dry fly, huh? You can catch trout with that if you know how. Um, how many trout have you caught this morning? Well, not enough to be giving lectures on it. But they're not striking very well. No. I usually catch my limit before now, but... Oh. Oh, you're going to hate yourself for that. Do you want a captain? Or shall I? What's that? Beginner's luck? Beginner? It just happens I'm a darn good fisherman. Why, I've been fishing for... Look out, you'll date yourself. For longer than I care to remember. Well, we're back to normal anyway.  No, don't say it. I'm sorry. I don't really mean that. I guess I'm just mad because you can fish. Oh, now, don't start smiling and acting nice. I don't think I could stand that. Oh, don't worry. I'm never nice for very long at a time. Oh. How wonderful to get off by yourself this way, isn't it? Or is that Johnny Netherton? I think so. Maggie. Maggie, this wire came. I think it's important. Thank you, Johnny. Hi, Heller. Hi, boy. Oh, my golly. Mr. Hawkins. Hey, that's wonderful. That's just great. Yes! Everybody in town's really excited, Maggie. When the wire came in and Liv couldn't get you on the phone, she just called everywhere trying to find you. Finally got to me. Oh, I just can't believe this. Oh, let me read it again. We'll read it out loud. Oh, congratulations, Miss Billet. Your entry has won first prize in the Bulwark Oil Company contest. A representative of that company will call on you in person within the next week. You and your companion should be ready to fly to Europe in 30 days. Congratulations again. Signed the Bulwark Oil Company. Hey, that calls for a celebration. Let's go back to town and I'll take you both to dinner. Oh, wonderful. I'd love it. Yeah, but you can't. Why not? It's Thursday. Thursday. Oh, that's right. I have a standing dinner date on Thursdays. Oh, well, that's too bad. Yes, it is. I'd really like to. Only, Cecil's an old friend. Yeah, an old friend. Okay, okay. Well, I still got some trot to catch. Maybe I'll see you later. Oh, wait a minute. I got a ride back in the car. I'll stay with you. Okay, Johnny. No, only first, Maggie. Everyone's busting to know who you're going to take with you. Oh, well, that's funny. I really don't know. Well, I hadn't expected to win, so I hadn't thought. But surely I'll find someone. Well, I mean, well, won't I? The Hollywood Radio Theatre will continue in just a few moments. Make a friend and you make an ally. There's a thought for you to keep in mind as many another American has. That's a thought which the 4-H clubs of America had in mind when they began sponsoring the International Farm Youth Exchange. The main purpose of the I-F-Y-E is to select young farmers, or those who've majored in university agricultural courses, who may send abroad for short periods to work with the people and promote understanding and friendship. Last summer, for example, three young California farmers were chosen to spend four to five months in Ecuador. While there, they visited farms, discussed agriculture with the people, and lent what assistance they could. The work of these grassroots ambassadors, as they are called, is voluntary for although their trips are sponsored by the 4-H clubs in their neighborhood, the major portion of their expenses is paid by the young farmers themselves. Their work can in no way be considered charity because they learn as much from people in other countries as those people learn from them. Yes, members of the International Farm Youth Exchange have learned the secret of international understanding that by helping others, you help your country. Maggie Phillips, starring Dorothy McGuire as Maggie. Maggie's returned to Premontville from the mountains that afternoon was a roundly triumphant. Her drive up Main Street on her way home was a series of waves and horn honks and friends and neighbors pressing close to shake her hand at stop lights. She tried to rest between phone calls once she got home, but it was no use. And the question persisted through every call and caller. And Maggie's reply persisted... Why, I don't know yet. And that evening at dinner with Cecil in the Premont Hotel dining room as usual, where they sat at their usual table and ordered their usual dinner, Cecil said a rather unusual thing. Congratulations, Maggie girl. Thank you, Cecil. Don't leave the halibut as solid as it was last Thursday. Oh, please, Cecil. Not tonight. Oh, no, no, of course not. Tonight's your night, Maggie girl. Yes, sir, your night by joy. Oh, I still can't believe it. Two whole weeks in Europe, in France mostly, I think, and flying both ways over the ocean. Oh, well, it's just too much to assimilate all at once. Say, just a curse to me. Who are you going to take with you? I don't know. I haven't had time to think. Really ought to give that some thought. Who to take? I know. Everyone keeps asking me. I don't know. That's a natural enough question, Maggie girl. Shouldn't make you edgy. No, of course it shouldn't. Some reason it does. Good heavens. It shouldn't be any trouble to find somebody. I'd think anyone would welcome a free trip to Europe. Yes, I'd think so, too. Don't think you should plan on Aunt Clara, though. Hmm? Or not that she wouldn't love it and be the lively sort of companion, but she's getting on, you know. I don't think she's up to it myself. Oh, I think you're right, Cecil. Absolutely right. Excuse me, folks. But the gentleman over there sent this wine, do you, Maggie? Oh, how nice, Ruby. Oh, what gentleman? Well, see? Just beyond the potted palm. If you can see over, Mrs. Parmalise has. No, I... I don't... I can't make him out myself. Oh, well, no matter. He's coming this way. I'll just leave the wine here and fest some glasses. I'm not sure about this, Maggie. Oh, I'm sure it's all right, Cecil. Why? Oh, it's Mr. Hawkins. Hi. I just thought I'd crash your little celebration if nobody objected. Oh, certainly not. And what a wonderful idea to send the wine. Oh, please, sit down. Well, thank you. Okay, with you, Babridge? Hmm? Oh, well, yes, I guess so. Here are the glasses, folks. It's all just real festive, isn't it? It certainly is, Ruby. Thank you.  Uh, yeah, Ruby. I guess I will. Thanks. Don't mention it. I'm kind of excited myself. Oh. None for me. Thanks, Hawkins. Cecil. Oh, what's the matter with you? Well, nothing. I don't think I should have headed the library and all. I'm not in public. Oh, Cecil, a little while. I'd like to, but there's my position to maintain. Maintain it one way or the other, will you? Oh, well. Why not? It is in the nature of a celebration. Oh, sure. What the heck? Here's to you. Thank you. Or, as the French put it, Maggie Girl, a vautre santé. Thank you, Cecil. Now, it's my turn. As the French put it, Avez-vous ma plume? I guess I'll have to dig out my high school French book and brush up. I can't go around France asking everyone if they have my pen. Well, you're cut with that accent. They'll never know what you're asking for. I believe we have some first-rate French books in the library, Maggie Girl. Or to do that, too. Who was it said? I'd never go to France unless you know the lingo. Thomas Hood. Hmm? No, I don't believe it was Hood at all. It was Thomas Hood in his poem French and English. Never go to France unless you know the lingo. If you do, like me, you'll repent by jingle. Well, I'll have to look that up in the morning. Well, it doesn't matter who said it. He's right, and I'll repent by jingle because French and I were never made for each other. Well, I can help you with it if you're interested. I was over there for a little while. Got to know the language well enough to get around. You've been to France? Oh, how wonderful. No, a lot of people get there done a lot these days. Well, I had an all-expense-paid trip in 1944 by the way of Normandy. Oh. Well, if you don't mind helping me with France, I'd really appreciate it. Well, sure, sure, any time. You just let me know. Oh, that's wonderful. Cecil, isn't that wonderful? Well, I don't know. I just wonder if it is. Cecil was to wonder about that a great deal in the next few days. The representative from the Bulwark Oil Company called on Maggie, presented her with full instructions, including her itinerary and her airline tickets for two. Maggie still didn't know who she'd take with her. She kept telling herself she'd find someone in time. Meanwhile, her front porch became an evening seminar in conversational France. All right, come on. I'll try it again. French phones are tricky enough that you better know how to place a call. Okay, I think I've got it now. Pick up the phone and say... No, no, no. It's the idiom, remember? You don't say, give me anything. It's, um... Voulez-vous me demander ce numéro? And then you fill in the number you want. Oh, that's right. Voulez-vous me demander ce numéro? Yeah, yeah. But work on the accent. Well, you keep saying that. I can't have a French accent. I'm not French. Besides, I'm only going to be there for two glorious weeks. Yeah, but you'll hate yourself if you don't give it a good try. That's a beautiful language. Really beautiful. The man was right when he said, When ere I hear French spoken as I approve, I feel myself quietly falling in love. What man? Edward Robert Bobo-Litton, the olive-Litton. He wrote under the name of Owen Meredith.  Oh? You've done a lot of reading, haven't you? Quite a bit, I guess. What's wrong with that? Nothing. Only it doesn't seem to sit with running a truck line somehow. You want to know something? There's a big, wide world outside full of people who've read books and dig ditches or drive trucks that sit on flag poles. You never heard of Fremontville and its cozy conformity. I sounded snobby. I didn't mean to. It's just that I'm used to people who, well, fit the pattern a little more than you do, I guess. Nothing says you've got to get used to me. I'm sorry, heller. So's your French. Now, forget about placing a phone call for a while. Here's a phrase you'll use a lot often. Just sweep their dues. Who should prove American Express? And what does that mean? I am lost. Where's the American Express? Very funny. In fact, Trey, comic. The book has everything in it you ought to know, Maggie Girl. It tells about customs. Oh, they got some great customs there. About getting through customs. All about the money exchange and a complete list of idioms. Well, it was sweet of you to order it for me, Cecil. Oh, well, I dare say without my connections at the library, we couldn't have gotten it here on time. How about giving us a few quick idioms, Bainbridge? Oh, well, let's see here. Oh, uh, yes. There's, uh, ouvre la porte. That opens the door, of course. She can open her own doors. Fair may lay for netres. And close her own windows. Tell her he's so trying to be helpful. I certainly am. Sure, I know that, but you can't get around France telling people to open doors and close windows. Look, here's the kind of thing you need to know. You go to your hotel and they show you to your room. Now, if you like it, you say, ça va, or, uh, c'est ça. This means it's okay with you. I'd watch where I said that, Maggie Girl. Yeah. Now, there's another expression that you ought to know. You won't find it in Buster's book there. It's ta gueule.  Rough expression? Well, it can get rough sometimes. Ça va, c'est ça, ça gueule. Hmm.  Ah, yes, we perdue. Who should prove American Express? Which means I am lost. Where's the American Express? Oh, you knew that one, huh? The nightly seminars continued on Maggie Phillips' front porch. It was a regular two-some, except on Thursdays when it swelled to a three-some. And while they talked French, the rest of Fremontville just talked. Speculated and talked some more. Maggie's big trip was just a week away. And when the town could stand the suspense no longer, a spokesman called at the Lending Library. As you know, Maggie, I'm not one of them. Who are you taking with you on this trip? Honestly, Clara, I don't know. Are you sure you don't know? I'm very sure. I thought of Taff and Gilmore and Ada and Madora. But none of them could leave their families with children out of school and all. Oh, I guess it's so late and all. I'll just have to go alone. Oh, well, I must say I'm relieved. I, well, well, I didn't really believe the talk. But things did point in that direction. What direction? What talk? Oh, my dear, you must know. I don't know anything.  Uh, yes. Well, everyone in town's been scared to death at you and that Hawkins person, where you might lose all sense of propriety and, well, just you thought they foolish. There. Take, I've said all along, there's simply an outrageous presumption on everyone's heart that you wouldn't, that you wouldn't take Heller with me. Maggie's affirmative answer had a hollow ring to it, even to her. For some reason, she didn't quite understand it wasn't as preposterous as it should be. And Maggie was strangely silent that evening as Heller talked about her itinerary. Grinnell, you'll be there a day and a night. That's long enough, really. And you'll want to take the telephoric up to the Bastille, I guess. Everybody does. Hey, uh, how about Dijon? Does it say you'll go to Dijon? Hmm? Oh, uh, I don't remember. Oh, I used to have some times in Dijon. All right. And Chablis. Oh, there's a darling Chablis. Oh, brother. Why didn't you ever ask me who I was taking with me? Oh, I, I don't know. I figured when the time came that you'd tell me. You'd tell me? Everyone else in town has asked me, but you. Oh. You know, I never would have won that contest if you hadn't helped me. Oh, that's crazy. No, I mean it. I don't know why I tell you this, but I took your suggestion about telling them I was an old, uh, a single woman. No kidding. Well, that was a pretty smart move, I guess. I guess so. You know something, crazy? Yeah, but what do you mean? And half a freeman's deal. But I was going to ask you to go with me. Well, isn't that silly? No, I don't think so. You don't? Well, I do. I think it's about, no, I don't. I don't think it's silly at all. I could get away. And the awful part of it is, I'd love it if you could go with me. It'd be fun and interesting and exciting and... Oh, I am shameless. No, no, no, you're not. And it would be fun and interesting and exciting.  I think you are the most, the most shocking, insensitive... No, you don't. No, you don't. You'd like to, but you don't think anything of the kind. You know something? No. What? A guy can do all right for himself in the trucking business. He can make a nice little pilot dough. Well, good for him. He can even pay his way to Europe and back and take somebody along, like... I'll say... Well, let's make Fremont Villa happy, huh? Suppose he... takes his bride along with him. Oh. Suppose he does. Grenoble, Dijon, Paris, Shubley. Oh, Maggie, that'll make a lot of honeymoon. For two glorious weeks. And after that... Oh, there's got to be more. We've talked about a couple of tourists who are going through an art gallery in Italy. One man, obviously tired of sightseeing, announced to everyone within hearing, ah, you call this art? Nothing but faded paint and cracked canvas. We got better stuff on our calendars at home. An American service man overheard this and saw how it offended the Italians. He turned to the man and said, sir, the paintings here are not on trial. The people who come to see them are. Well, the frowns of disapproval on the faces of the Italians were erased by smiles of understanding and the incident was widely repeated. It was a small thing, but even small things can have tremendous results. Such acts by you and your friends today are shaping our world of tomorrow. Here's Dorothy McGuire. It's a very destined entertainment. We think so because next week we will present another charming romance, one more spring, and as our star, Jean Crane. I hope I'll be able to hear it. Good night. Good night.


webinar dedicated to e-commerce of the consultative committee of the Universal Postal Union. My name is Walter Trezegar. I'm the host today and I'm also the moderator. I am here in my capacity as the chair of the consultative committee. This is the second webinar and today our topic is how have e-shopper behaviors changed in the contact of COVID-19? We have good an hour to discuss this topic and I'm very pleased to announce our distinguished panelists and our keynote speaker. The COVID-19 pandemic has forever changed online shopping behaviors in both emerging and developed economies. Making e-shoppers online experience a safe journey is an institutional obligation that comes with many responsibilities to ensure that consumers are protected while online. Please, if you have any questions, if you have any comments, use the chat for posting your questions. I will take the opportunity then to give you the floor or pick up your questions accordingly. With that, I would like to come to our speakers and the first one is our keynote speaker. It is Torbjörn Fredriksson. He is the chief of the ICT policy section at the UN conference on trade and development short UNCTAD. Before joining UNCTAD, he held positions at the invest in Sweden agency and the Swedish ministry of industry and commerce. He has a master's in international economics from the Stockholm School of Economics. With that, I would like to start an introduction video and therefore I will share my screen and would like to write into this video. I hope you see my screen now and I will start the video. Welcome to the COVID-19 and e-commerce global review. Discover the key findings from the study conducted by UNCTAD and A trade for all partners on the impacts of COVID-19 on e-commerce and digital trade. E-commerce has been playing a growing role as part of the wider digital economy in global economic activity for the past decade. It also provides new ways of facilitating the sustainable development goals, bringing both new challenges and new opportunities. In fact, despite the global recession, the pandemic has led to a further acceleration of digital transformation. First, let's look more closely at the global economic impact of the pandemic. The global economy shrank in 2020 by an estimated 4.3 percent over two and a half times more than during the 2008 to 2009 global financial crisis. International trade, including intercontinental and intra-regional e-commerce, has been negatively affected by the pandemic. UNCTAD's latest estimates suggest that global trading goods fell by some 9% in 2020 and trading services by 15%. However, as social distancing and restrictions on movement became the new normal, many businesses and consumers went digital, providing and purchasing more goods and services online. As a result, the pandemic has led to a further acceleration of digital transformation. The share of e-commerce in global retail trade is estimated to have surged from 14% in 2019 to about 17% in 2020. Further acceleration of digital transformation was also observed in other sectors such as teleworking, gaming, distance learning, digital entertainment, online conferencing. The pandemic has also benefited the world's leading digital platforms. Most solutions being used for e-commerce, teleworking, and cloud computing are provided by a relatively small number of large companies based mainly in China and the United States. Consumers in emerging economies have made the greatest shift to online shopping. Latin America's online marketplace Merca de Libre, for example, sewed twice as many articles per day in the second quarter of 2020 compared with the same period the previous year. An African e-commerce platform JUMIA reported a 50% jump in transactions during the first month of 2020. In China, the online share of retail sales rose from 19.4 to 24.6% between August 2019 and August 2020. In Kazakhstan, the online share of retail sales increased from 5% in 2019 to 9.4% in 2020. In Thailand, downloads of shopping apps jumped 60% in the week between the imposition of partial lockdown and full emergency measures during March. The accelerated trend towards e-commerce seeing during the pandemic is likely to be sustained during recovery. More than 50% of those interviewed in Octa's consumer survey in nine countries said that they expected to continue shopping more often online after the pandemic. E-commerce platforms are therefore likely to retain many of the new market shares gained during the pandemic vis-a-vis offline markets. However, in many of the world's least developed countries, consumers and businesses aren't able to capitalize on the new e-commerce opportunities due to persistent bottlenecks and weaknesses in their e-trade readiness. Find out more about the impacts of COVID-19 on e-commerce and digital trade. Download the COVID-19 and e-commerce global review here. German Boat, thank you very much for sharing that with us. With that, please let us move right into your presentation. I would like to ask you how safe is it for e-shoppers to shop online and to rely on the internet for more news, health-related information and digital entertainment. So thank you, Walter, and good morning, good afternoon to everyone who is on the call. Yes, I would be happy to participate in this webinar because Anta and the Universal Postal Union go back quite a while in terms of collaborating in the era of e-commerce. It's a great opportunity for us to participate. And you know, we estimate that there are now around 1.5 billion online shoppers in the world. And an increasingly important question for them is how safe is it to engage in online activities? And here the pattern varies considerably around the world. Many countries are yet to establish comprehensive legal and regulatory frameworks for e-commerce or enacted legislation governing the areas listed. Our cyber law tracker monitors the enactment of relevant legislation in four areas, including consumer protection online. And in December 2020, only just over half of Anta's member states had adopted laws to protect consumers online. If you look at the least developed countries, that share was only 40% and among small island developing state, it was as low as 24%. The absence of consumer protection laws, of course, makes customers vulnerable to abuse by unscrupulous traders, particularly in countries where consignment tracking and delivery networks are poorly developed. So it is therefore not surprising that many internet users in developing countries are hesitating to engage in e-commerce. For example, even in the leading digital hubs of Africa, such as Kenya and Nigeria and South Africa, less than 20% of internet users choose to buy something online, but they may be very active on social media. And this can be interpreted as a lack of trust in the online space. We have also seen that confidence in digital payment mechanisms takes time to develop. You know, in most developing countries, people who do engage in e-commerce, they are still mainly paying through cash on delivery. Although during the COVID crisis, we have seen an uptake in the use of mobile money payments and other digital payments. And there is a science about possible fraud that inhibits e-commerce and online payments, particularly in countries with inadequate protection. So new users who are unfamiliar with potential risks, they can be particularly vulnerable. And let me also add a few points to what we were saying here about the risks and so on that countries or consumers are facing. And if you look at the risks attached to digital payments, you would say they include hackers and scammers stealing bank account details, social security numbers and other personal information. Although data theft at the point of transaction is quite difficult, cyber criminals means they look to access databases that contain credit or debit card information. According to one global survey of IT professionals in August 2020, the most common types of cyber attacks experienced during the COVID-19 pandemic were credential theft, fishing or social engineering, account takeovers and general malware. E-commerce fraud was already on the increase when the pandemic hit. Another study by TransUnion found that between 2018 and 2019, there was a 347% increase in account takeovers and a 391% increase in shipping in fishing fraud attempts globally against its online retail customers. The number of fishing sites more than traveled between January and the middle of March 2020 and Google has also reported a surge in fishing sites worldwide reaching a total of more than 2 million by late 2020, more than 19% higher than the year before. So we can also see that the combination of more teleworking, online conferencing and online commerce is raising security concern. People working from home often have fewer security defenses in their home networks than in their workplaces. Online consumers may also be concerned that products ordered are not up-standards. That is what is received does not correspond to what was actually ordered and that additional costs may be added especially if the products are imported from abroad. So in order to boost consumer confidence in e-commerce, countries really need to strengthen the laws and regulations for consumer protection online. And here there is really a great improvement in many parts of the world, scope for great improvement. Maybe I could just add a little bit to what was said in the video that we just watched here. We produced this global review together with the other parts of the UN family, the regional commissions, plus a few other e-trade for all partners. And during the past 12 months or so, we have been engaging in a number of different activities to really try to understand better what it all means for e-commerce, this pandemic that we're all still fighting. As you saw, there has been a significant upsurge in business to consumer e-commerce, which is of course what is the main interest in this discussion that we're having today. And we saw that the online share of retail sales has gone up quite significantly. And this has been observing countries at all levels of development, of course, starting from different levels. Let me share a few more numbers that we will release next Monday actually in our new global estimates for e-commerce. In the United States, the share of online to total retail sales rose from 11 to 14 percent in 2020. I'm sorry about that. In the UK, it's served from 16 to 23 percent. And in Singapore, it doubled from 6 to 12 percent. We did last year a server of consumers in nine countries together with Netcom Swiss e-commerce association. We found that half of the people surveyed shopped online more after the pandemic broke out with a similar increase in their other digital activities. In these nine countries, the range of products that attracted the highest level of online shopping changed over the course of the pandemic. We saw pharmaceutical and COVID related health products that were particularly in high demand in the beginning of the pandemic, while demand for groceries and other products grew later in response to the lockdowns and other movement restrictions. Delivery services have benefited from this, with those focused on food deliveries reported to have more than doubled their business volume in many countries. If we look, for instance, at evidence from Brazil and other countries, it shows that there has been a substantial growth in the enrollment for digital entertainment services, especially for music and video streaming, for distance learning, as well as online game. We have also seen that the use of digital payment methods has become more widespread since the onset of the pandemic. And maybe that can serve as an introduction to the discussion and the debate we will have today. And I thank you so much again for the opportunity, Walter. Back to you. Thank you, Tjernbrok. Thank you very much indeed. And before we will enter into our panel session, just let me ask you one question related to ID theft, data theft, illicit trade, product security. What has been the UPU's role in all this? Obviously, there's a close collaboration. There had been certain initiatives in particular when it came to the network security of the UPU. Can you bring your perspective on that? Well, I must confess that I'm not really an expert in what UPU has done in this area, but I can say that we clearly have a long journey together with UPU in looking at the different aspects of e-commerce and development. And what we have done in the past couple of years is we have engaged in what we call e-trade redness assessments, where we go out to the countries that are trailing the furthest behind in this rapidly evolving digital economy. And for instance, we had a very important collaboration with UPU in certain countries where the governments felt that the postal system has an extremely important role to play on the logistics side, but also in the payments landscape. And I think this is something that we look forward to continuing working with UPU on. And I would say that for many of the weaker economies around the world, the postal system may be the only way to reach out to the rural and remote areas that are starting also to engage in e-commerce, although it's still at the very early stage. Yeah. Well, thank you very much indeed. Please stay on. We have further questions for sure for you, Turnborn. And with that, I'm moving right into our session with our distinguished panelists. And I would like to introduce Uywar Kumar. He is the policy analyst with CUTs. That's the Customer Unity and Trust Society International. He is a law graduate. He has over 20 years of exposure to trading systems, intellectual property competition, and regulation. His current focus is the digital economy. He was earlier a national consultant on trade and health policy at the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare. Uywar, a few large global platform intermediaries are dominating the e-commerce space. They have helped to drive down costs, increase choice, and streamline services for consumers. Does this mean consumers are fully protected and able to exercise their consumer rights? And what is the cost to national economies in terms of jobs, income, and innovation? Uywar, the floor is yours. Thank you. Thank you. This is a very pertinent question, Uywar. The high concentration in the platform market is a concern in many economies. While the consumers may be benefitting, at least in shop now, such market concentration can have adverse effects on jobs, income, and also innovation. And we understand that these big platforms are gatekeepers in the market. And hence, they are basically de facto regulators. And in that role as a de facto regulator, the problem becomes more severe when these platforms adopt dual role. Dual role means they also provide platform services, but also compete with the business suppliers on their platform. They also are the business suppliers. And this should be concerned for the postal services as well, since some of the platforms have their own postal services. So whether these platforms can ensure platform neutrality is the crux of the issue. Platform neutrality by platform neutrality, I mean that these platforms need to ensure non-discriminatory treatment for all the suppliers linked to it. And the very dual role model of the very nature chances of the breach of platform neutrality increases. Realizing this, that the equity trust or competition authorities or competition enforcement may not be sufficient to deal with such a problem. Many countries are considering platform to business regulations. In fact, EU is also considering that and its advantages in digital market. The second issue with increasing concentration and market power is its adverse effect on the very effort to make the economy inclusive. And there are many blocks on this. IMF has come out recently that market power can even, increasing market power can even be a hurdle in economically covered. So realising all this initial also in the beginning also this whole issue was flagged to the national government. So the government or even the competition authorities are now considering interpreting consumer welfare widely. We all know that consumer welfare is one of the main goals of this law. So initially, traditionally, there has been an interpretation that consumer welfare, the consumer surplus will no kind of translate to consumer welfare. But looking all the whole effect on the economy and jobs and income, that means shrinking of the consumer base, the wider interpretation of consumer welfare is being considered by many countries. Secondly, also we are seeing some changes in the way market power is being interpreted of the dominance so that the abuse of dominance can be established. Initially, this dominance and market power were generally construed relying solely on market share approach. And we understand that in most e-commerce segment, there are two or three players having some markets, none of them are dominant and then market tips. So there is a tendency to see market power in terms of whether the firm has the ability to work independent of competition. So that is also changing. And since there is no concept of collective dominance in most jurisdictions, the changes in the market power interpretation are most welcoming in that sense. Certain authorities are also taking into account the control over data and the network effect, whether the firm has one of the elements of market power. So we are going beyond market share approach. In some countries, there are calls for some extreme measures like backing up big platforms. But I am not comfortable with the idea at this moment of time. I am not yet satisfied that that would be a better option. But in my opinion, there are certain measures that would be useful in this, particularly related to the data regulation, like having data portability, more interoperability of data. We are seeing in India, it's worked very well in the FinTech center and it may be applied into the retail sector, e-commerce sector. That basically by this new entrant, new platform entrant, we will be able to achieve the critical mass of network effect easily. And if they have access to capital, they can be a competitor and they can challenge this concentration. So I think, but above all, I think the whole of government approach would be needed rather than to solely leave it on comparison of all these of consumer protection. I should have stopped there. Great. Well, thank you very much for your first input here. With that, I would like to move on to Liz Cole. She is a consumer policy analyst and expert on consumer behavior in the digital age, specializing in the impact of connected digital technology on markets, consumers and regulation. She currently leads Consumers International's digital advocacy strategy. And as a world-class expert on consumer tech policy, data protection and online consumer protection, Liz, what have we learned during the COVID-19 pandemic about how consumers can benefit from e-commerce? Liz, please. Thanks, Walter. And thanks to UPU for inviting me to participate. I think the main benefit we've learned about again is access, whether that's to the essentials of health, food, care, equipment, right through to the other things that made lives easier during the lockdown, whether clothes and luxuries like books and leisure, things like that. And it emphasized again the benefits of e-commerce providing this range of products and a range of different suppliers and goods, which also means consumers can get perhaps specialist items or replacement parts, which they wouldn't have been able to get before. We know, obviously, that more people, well over half of the people in the UNCTAD and NetSuite surveys, report is spending more time shopping and looking for information and entertainment online. So that's clear. But these things have always been beneficial. I think what's significant here is that during the various national lockdowns, they became more like lifelines for people. So this is really important, a really important moment for e-commerce, because it's shifting in nature in some ways to almost an essential service. So if predictions play out, and I'm not sure that we'll see this permanent shift, huge shift to online shopping, we don't know yet. People may be reporting that they will carry on online or their intentions may not play out. We don't know yet. But we're certainly likely, particularly in more mature e-commerce markets, but they're just to be less physical shops to visit. So I think inevitably there'll be a rise in online shopping and it will remain essential for goods and services. Or it may be that there are particular types of goods and services like electrical equipment that will become very rare in physical stores and e-commerce will become the core delivery for them. So I think because e-commerce is likely to become more of an essential lifeline service, it does need more attention and protection. We've also seen that more lower income consumers have been accessing online markets. And the UNCTAD report shows that people were buying essentials more frequently, although spending lower amounts. Again, that doesn't necessarily mean it's completely affordable or that people had full trust. It could have been more that it was the only option there. But it does mean it's opened up a market of consumers for people to pay attention to and to look at those vital issues of payments and delivery options that need attention. I think the other benefits is that what we've learned through the lockdown about the benefits is how adaptable online shopping can be. So there was a few delays at the beginning, but I think overall it was able to react well and deliver goods to people safely with minimal contact. So it was able to adapt its services to that contactless environment. And that obviously kept people out of the busy shops and physical contact. So we're seeing its ability to innovate. Obviously the platforms are largely tech-driven, so they've got a culture of continuing to innovate. And I think we'll see more of those innovations in payments and deliveries speeding up as we have done during the pandemic. So we can see that there's lots of benefits which may hopefully be able to be adapted to communities who have so far maybe more financially vulnerable or who have not have access. I suppose the final thing I'd say is a little bit of caution. So even with all these positives and increase in activity, we need to maybe not get carried away. The high use doesn't mean there's been no problems. People had in a way had to use these services as their only options. So we should celebrate that there's been greater access and use, but I think we need to pay attention to some of the long-standing issues that are already there and need solving. Thank you, Liz. This has been very helpful and very insight. Very important for the UPU, of course, because according to recent studies, the UPU is the backbone of e-commerce commercial delivery with about 70% of all e-commerce items in the networks of the designated operator constituting now, of course, the global postal network. And with that, I would like to go back to Tor Björn and ask him another important question, we believe. Policymakers have been discussing the importance of consumer trust in e-commerce for many years, but it is still a factor that inhibits adoption. What is holding countries back from addressing the issues like payment security, data protection, delivery fulfillment that will help reassure trust? What are specific issues for the least developed countries? Tor Björn, please. Thank you, Walter. And so I think for many countries, a key challenge is the lack of a coherent strategy for fostering e-commerce. That really represents a key bottleneck. The challenge that many governments and countries are facing in the area of e-commerce is that it is so cross-cutting in nature, and it involves many different ministries, many agencies of the government. And therefore, it's very important for countries to establish some formal mechanism for approaching e-commerce and the digital economy more broadly in a more holistic way under a whole-of-government approach. It's very difficult just to focus on improving the internet connectivity, for instance, if you don't also address all the other factors that influence whether e-commerce and e-commerce ecosystem will work. We're also seeing a need to establish better mechanisms for facilitating multi-stakeholder dialogue here. Really, it is not just between the private sector and the government, but also finding ways to involve the civil society and the consumer dimension of e-commerce. Most developing countries lack clear structures for engaging with consumer organizations, as well as the ICT sector, possibly beyond the telecom operator. Given the complexity of digitalization, good multi-stakeholder dialogue in this area is really essential to help the government in adopting the right, adapting and adopting the right responses. Finally, I think the international community has a very important role to play. We need to do much more to support especially those countries, and you mentioned the least developed countries here, that are trailing the furthest behind in the digital economy. We must provide more assistance in terms of how to formulate strategies, how to develop better mechanisms for the dialogue that I was referring to, how to develop better legal and regulatory frameworks, strengthening institutions, collecting better statistics, and fostering better infrastructure for ICT, trade logistics, and payment solutions. And that UPU and other international organizations can make very important contributions to this, and also fostering, at our level, good interaction between us and the other stakeholders in the market. Thank you very much. I have the feeling that this is just the beginning of a long road, but I think it is very important to listen to the inputs of our speakers and panelists. So let me turn back to Liz again, asking her what should countries with lower levels of e-commerce readiness focus on as they developed their e-commerce infrastructure? On the other hand, what has not worked so well for customers, and what challenges have been highlighted during the COVID-19 pandemic for online consumers? Liz, the floor is yours. Thanks, Walter. So I think that along with the things that Torbjorn has mentioned, I think I feel there's important lessons in what not to do, which we can learn from the more mature e-commerce markets. Because as I said before, some of these problems have been here since e-commerce became mainstream. So whether that's the lack of clear information about terms and about products, about your rights, difficulty in reading all the long terms and conditions, misleading adverts, fake reviews, there's all sorts of things that are there which are not working brilliantly at the moment. So while on the one hand, yes, there's lots about the infrastructure and delivery that you can learn from successful e-commerce environments, I think there's an awful lot about what's not going well, which would be great for countries developing their e-commerce readiness to build in right from the beginning. And some of those things are the sort of systemic things that the other panelists have mentioned, and things around when you have online marketplaces, who is monitoring and policing the sellers. There's always been unsafe goods on sale, poor quality or counterfeit goods, goods that are actually banned in offline markets, you can easily find again online. And throughout the pandemic, we saw again, things like poor practice from the sellers, like price gouging and things like that. So there's some systemic problems which are there, which nobody's really satisfactorily addressing at the moment. So I would also think about how you can build in those issues when you're looking at building up e-commerce readiness, alongside those things, the more well known things around data security, delivery and getting redressed and things like that. I think there's also quite an interesting context at the moment created by the pandemic, but also following other trends. So we've got more people buying more and a bigger range of things online. We've got a lot of inexperienced consumers coming to online shopping for the first time. And this is really important because if you've done it gradually and been an online shopper for a while, you've maybe got wise to some of the risks and the pitfalls, you sort of have some shortcuts to check and to keep yourself, well to minimize your risks to a degree. If you're coming into an online market for the first time, some of them are quite sophisticated. There's lots of different things you need to be looking out for. So there's I think a big skills and capacity building, not just in how you use digital, but how to keep yourself safe and how to use it confidently. And also on the part of the providers to make information easy to digest and understand. So that's one part of the context, a lot more people, some of them inexperienced. We've also got this mix of models and channels. So we've got the marketplace platform models that usual talked about. We've got direct online retailers. We've got offline retailers who are using separate e-commerce platforms to help with delivery and logistics. We've got delivery systems, advertising systems. There's a big mix in there and it's only going to get more complex and blended as we go on. So I think again, in turn, that all of that creates a bit of a lack of clarity about where the different obligations sits and where responsibilities sit, fair amount of it's happening across borders. So I think when you're thinking about what countries of those lower levels should focus on, they need to start from the consumer and look at the world that they're entering into. Consumers aren't necessarily thinking whether they're buying consumer to consumer or business to consumer. Are they using the platform model or directly? They're not policy makers. They don't think in those terms, but that's the market they'll be experiencing. So I think there needs to be a real understanding about how people are buying and what they need to make that secure and risk-free. Thank you. Thank you for this, Liz. I would like to move back to Wewhal and asking him, cross-border e-commerce fell during COVID-19. What are the challenges in rebuilding cross-border e-commerce, in particular of course with a clear focus on your region? But I'm sure you have a clear insight there. Thank you. The floor is yours. Thank you. Again, a very important question. Tobon has discussed the crux of this, why it is not there. As it is, the share of B2C e-commerce in cross-border has been very low and that was basically because of the lack of consumer trust. Lack of consumer trust first and foremost thing is the cross-border dispute settlement of consumer issues. Who should have the jurisdiction if there is a consumer dispute? Where would I go? How it will be implemented? These are the issues that these are still unsettled and I learned that the ongoing WTO negotiations are taking up this issue and perhaps there will be a chapter on e-commerce and cross-border consumer protection. Either there will be a on a coordination model that all the consumer authorities will coordinate or there may be certain minimum standards that every country has to follow as far as consumer protection is concerned. Then again, Tobon says about the lack of data protection regimes, particularly the cybersecurity aspect and consumers in developing countries are largely not much bothered about their personal data, but they are very wary about the bank frauds that are happening and which has increased in a kind of a big cluster. And third issue in the trust, consumer trust, I realize the counterfeiting which also a consumer feels that whether goods will be genuine or not and whether the goods which have been shown in the picture will match when I get the goods. Another hurdle this apart, another hurdle for a lack of V2C cross-border e-commerce has been protectionist tendencies that countries have violated, which has got fueled by this pandemic lockdown when the countries have realized that they are have to be more self-reliant and pandemic has also broken the global supply chain which gave a country to an opportunity to be self-reliant at least in essential goods and services. One aspect of protectionism is also the revelation of data. Most countries are of the view that restricting the cross-border flow of data will help them or you can say data localization, it will help them in creating national champions which will be globally competitive as Tobin has rightly pointed out that and another Rantar study has pointed out that the values the gains from the digital economy is largely going to countries and that is China and USA to the tune of 90 percent goes to the two countries. So and the countries understand that these two countries are the one who are controlling the digital ecosystem. So to control the digital ecosystem one will have to have a national champion or globally competitive national champion will be a kind of conglomerates and this thought process has gotten to a large country like India which are kind of putting restrictions on cross-border flow of data. So these are the protectionist issues that can come in a way of as a hurdle in the B2C cross-border e-commerce. I hope that countries will realize that e-commerce is a very good mode for exports particularly for its small scale businesses because they may not have that sources to like a big exporter so they can use the platform logistic to export without investing much. So I hope that country will realize and we'll have a focus on e-commerce in the trade facilitation policies. India is looking into a new trade policy. It will have a chapter in e-commerce. So I think countries are realizing but there are pros and cons to how to deal with that. Thank you very much indeed. I see that we're starting to be rather lively already in the chat but before I turn to those questions I would like to pick up these comments already and back to you Uriwal. Of course I mean a country like India is very much based on small and medium-sized enterprises. I think it's therefore very important to help those businesses to on board to become digital commercial entities. What would you advise for those companies be in particular to best serve their customers? I think this is now imperative that small businesses digitalize themselves. Even I think to survive in the market they have to do that and how to on board in countries like India is a very big challenge. First challenge is the digital divide. There may be a vast number of small players who are on the other side of the digital divide. Secondly, those who have access to internet and have access to that may not be trained enough to on board and do business. How could do businesses on digital platforms? There are training programs. So even agencies are doing such training programs to focusing on the MSMEs to train them to come on the on board. Thirdly, I would say the trust issue of cyber security also comes with the MSMEs as well. Their impersonation somebody else can impersonate them on the platform and supply certain goods and the lab to be passed on them. So these are the concerns unless we train them beautifully and we have that robust cyber security framework in a country. Things may be difficult but I think the government is also very keen. Government of India is also very keen to on board e-commerce platform. Government of India has a platform, its own platform whereby it's procured through MSMEs which is called as government e-market. They are now thinking to expand it. This is basically at this moment of time it is a business to government, B2G. So they are trying to see if it is feasible to turn that platform to B2C as well. And in that process the India Post, the Post Office, the Postal Department of India is very much into that. They want to develop an ecosystem where India Post also plays a role because it has reached every new corner of the India. So but it is a difficult task but it is happening. It is happening slowly and slowly. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I also see a question in the chat coming from Singapore asking that with the shift in cross-border postal volumes to more commercial B2B channels instead to B2C channels, is that just an effect on the collapse of air freight or is that a tendency to stay or will B2C be the most dominant channel there? Perhaps a question to you, Liz. Could you give us your insight there? Sorry, on the B2B question, yeah it is interesting isn't it? I wonder whether with bit premature and talking about the collapse of cross-border business to consumer e-commerce, I think with lots of these patterns that we are seeing through the pandemic it is not entirely clear yet which ones are there to stay. If you look positively at the local economy, local business story, there certainly does seem to be a sense that people want to be supporting their local businesses and services or national services and can very clearly see the link between the local community and the job creation and income creation. But it is difficult to say how long that will last if we are heading into large recessions and drops in income, whether that local national picture will continue or whether actually people will just be going back to look for the most economic option. So in terms of the postal volumes, it may possibly be a bit too early to say, I don't know if any other panellists had an opinion on that as well. Paul Bjorn, yes I'm counting on you. Well I mean frankly, I mean UPU is probably the best place to respond to the postal volume but maybe just to get a perspective on what we're talking about here. When we estimate the amount of business to consumer e-commerce that is taking place around the world, we see that only about 10% of global B2C e-commerce is cross-border and most of the cross-border e-commerce is still in the neighboring region. So like within the EU or in Canada it'll be with the US and so on. But I think I agree with Liz that it's too early to tell exactly how this will play out after the pandemic but it's clear that most of the people that we consulted with think that they did shift in behavior that we have seen during the pandemic will have lasting effects but of course not, you don't know exactly how that will play out in the coming years. But the fact that we are still in the middle of the pandemic and that people have had even more time to adapt to this new situation speaks in favor of longer lasting impacts. I think also that when it comes to the cross-border dimension when trade in general picks up and starts growing again, which has already started in some respects, it will also have a favorable effect on cross-border e-commerce. I think one of the interesting findings that we saw in Latin America for instance was that the postal deliveries cross-border were more badly affected than cross-border deliveries that were relying on the private courier companies which often had their own air fleets whereas the postal system was relying more on the passenger aircraft system for their deliveries. So I think this is something that has played out very strongly in some parts of the world at least and I would actually be very interested to hear the UPU perspective on these issues as well. Yeah, Tom, I'm checking online the current dates as you speak. Unfortunately I can report a little bit on the tracked parcel network where the UPU of course has real-time information and this is very well reflected in the online data. The UPU network has suffered around 25 to 30% of the volume compared to the year without COVID is missing in the global network cross-border. So there has been quite a strong impact on the global postal network and you're absolutely right. The UPU has undertaken severe action to re-establish in particular the necessary backbone when it came to air transport. Of course we all know that air traffic in particular passenger planes were hit the most and most of the postal items were onboarded onto those planes. However the UPU and in particular of course the International Bureau and we have to give credit to the UPU here did their utmost to re-establish a highly secure and functioning network there. So a lot of work has been done. You know of course that the negotiations with IATA and also the newly established air freight association here has been very instrumental in bringing this secure network back into action. So let me look into the chat any further questions from our audience currently I see none. So yes we are coming to the end of this trilogy and I would very much like to thank our speakers, our distinguished keynotes, presenter of course our panelists and also thank you for the questions in the chat. If there are any further questions not answered or coming in later we of course will share that with the panelists so that we can provide the necessary answers to all of your questions. Please kindly then share your email address so that we can answer them. Thank you very much for your highly insightful presentations today and contributions to this webinar. This has been the second of three webinars hosted by the consultative committee of the Universal Postal Union on the various aspects of e-commerce. The third webinar is scheduled for the 19th of May and will be focusing on redefining the universal service obligation in the changing digital postal environment. As we heard today already several times that delivery is an essential service for the execution of e-commerce but any other postal service. It is very close to our ongoing universal service obligation refinement that needs to happen during this time of digitalization. It again will be hosted between 11 and 12 o'clock and with that I would very much like to thank you for participating and I'm looking forward to your participation at the upcoming third webinar. Thank you very much indeed and all the best to you. Please stay healthy in this very difficult times. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you.


Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem and As-Salaamu Alaykum everyone, welcome back to our module on corporate governance and we are moving forward with the foundation of corporate governance which is the various dimensions and paradigms of ethics, morality, good governance and anti-corruption. Well, ladies and gentlemen, a very important chapter today and that is challenges of living ethically. Now every day as an individual, as a member of a family, as a member of a community or society, as a member of some institution or as a national or citizen of a country or as a global human being, there are different challenges of living ethically and there are different interpretations of living ethically and there are different considerations of living ethically and all of this is affected by norms, by laws, by traditions, by culture, by religion. All of these things are having an influence of us of living ethically and sometimes what is ethically accepted at home might not be ethically accepted in society and what is ethically accepted in society might not be accepted in institution and maybe it might not be accepted globally and we have seen so many examples in all of this. We have seen how there has been a massive segmentation of society whereby, again, we are reverting back to our history where people are known by their tribes, are known by demographics, are known by where they live, are known by their religion, are known by their norms, their rules, their regulations, their own society. So, there is so much of segmentation. Let me just take one example. For example, wearing a hijab or a veil is acceptable at home. It might not be in the office. If it is acceptable in the office, it might not be in society. If it is acceptable in society, it might not be acceptable in some other country. So, it is the same dress but it has multiple implications. Similarly, what we see is that there are other challenges also. There are challenges of practicing religion, of following religion, of interpreting religion and that is where there are so many differences. We also see how in a country there are so many different types of laws. For example, there are about 149 industrial laws or labour laws in Pakistan. Now, who is ever going to find out how many laws there are? Who is going to read them? Who is going to interpret them and then who is going to implement them? And once they are implemented, who is going to understand what are the different implications and the different interpretations of those particular laws? They would differ from situation to situation. So, the labour code is a huge voluminous book which when you look at it, you just can't go through it because it is so huge. So, similarly, there are different challenges. There are challenges of age. There are challenges of demographics. There are challenges of region, of geography. There are challenges of society, of norms, traditions, religion. So, all of these are challenges of living ethically. Many a times, we are in a situation where we feel we should do something, but then due to some compulsion, due to what we say, what will others say syndrome? We will not do it or we will be doing it. Even though we know that we should not be doing it or we should be doing it. Now, these are all challenges of ethical living. So, in the coming sessions what we are going to do is that we are going to try to understand this in a better way. Try to see how things can be done differently and yet accepted. How my freedom ends where the freedom of someone else begins. That is extremely important and that is what we have to comprehend. So, humans are ethical creatures by nature, guided through life by normatic considerations. Even pre-linguistic infants exhibit signs of possessing ethical prototypes that become ethical after a long process of socialization. So, ladies and gentlemen, what we see is that even a little baby, even a little toddler has its own ethical considerations. It knows what is right and what is wrong, what can be done and what cannot be done. And it is through those different notions that he or she later on, through a long process of socialization, of interfacing with society, they understand that whatever their ethical prototype was, now it is a societal norm, whereby society also tends to accept it. So, therefore, even at an age when someone is not speaking, the ethical considerations and the ethical structure and matrix is being developed within that particular human being and is being developed in such a way that it would affect his or her life throughout. So, these are very very important things. Actually, now research is saying that even when the baby is in the mother's womb, the child can perceive. The child starts developing the notions of the world beyond the mother and in the womb, just based upon the different sounds and the chemical reactions of his or her mother, they are able to create an understanding of the world. And that understanding remains in the human being till his or her last day. So, these are different challenges. What we see is that the perpetrators of atrocity typically describe themselves as freedom fighters or something very similar to this from their own perspective. Now, why is it that we see that some people who are called terrorists later on become heroes or some people who are heroes later on become terrorists or some terrorists later on become oblivious altogether? Now, all of this is circumstantial. All of this depends upon the circumstances and the experiences of an individual. And in all of this, what we see is that sometimes perceptions can also change, based upon reality opening up in front of them. But most of the time, we remain glued to our experiences and what we have heard, observed and felt throughout our lives. Even criminals have excuses for the crimes that they commit. So, there is always that element of rationality which is put in and based upon some form of rational people tend to endorse what they are doing and they have an excuse for it.  But the obvious becomes the immobvious. The rational becomes the irrational and the irrational becomes the true. So again, there is this immense state of confusion and how do we swim through this confusion? How do we get a better understanding so that we can follow the postulates of values and ethics and morality and differ between what is right and wrong without encroaching upon anyone else and understanding that yes, there is going to be a difference. And in that diversity and in that difference, there will be unity of humanity. That is extremely important ladies and gentlemen. It is rare to come across morally exemplary individuals who try to convince themselves that they are morally bankrupt. This is an evidence that at a basic level, everyone seeks to be ethical. So it is very rare that people will start condemning themselves to be wrong. They will always justify themselves. They will always try to convince others that yes, they are on the right path and they are ethically correct and therefore, they stand on a higher ground. And on one side, it can be a dilemma and it can be a painful truth and in some cases, it could be a tragedy. But on the other hand, it tends to reflect that at least everyone wants to be ethical. We have a statistics that nearly 70 percent of people want to work in an ethically attuned organization. More than 70 percent of consumers don't want to buy products from ethically incorrect or morally corrupt organizations. So these things are there and show that we have an inclination of doing things in the correct way rather than this general perception that you can do anything to be successful. That to be successful, we have to compromise. We have to find shortcuts. We sometimes have to tread on other people's toes or heads. We have to do something wrong to be able to maximize profitability, to optimize performance. But in the long run, ladies and gentlemen, it is always truth that wins. It is always honesty that wins. It is always one's sense of conviction and hard work and perseverance and grit that enable a person to win. To be successful in life and with that success also be content to move forward in a better way. That is what are the challenges of ethical living. And there can be a fudge factor, a term referring to the extent to which one can cheat and still feel good about oneself because of the pull of powerful, countervailing desires. So we tend to fudge our lives. We live in an artificial bubble. We live in a glass house where we can ask that mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the most beautiful, handsome and stunning of all and the mirror would reply, you. It would make us feel good. It would make us be happy. But the truth is that we are lying to ourselves. So therefore it is extremely important that we should not lie to ourselves. We should be truthful to ourselves. So at least we can discern in the right way. At least we can distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong, corrupt and incorrupt. Otherwise we will always be swayed by the flow of the water. We will be compromising on values, compromising on truth, compromising on honesty and that would be the devastation of humanity. Therefore we should try to stay away from the fudge factor and move towards the truth factor and that is the real essence of life. Thank you so much.