Yeah. Hello everyone. And thank you for joining this Friday. And this is a fourth and last Hyperlegion meetup series in the Hyperlegion Pune meetup, organized by Hyperlegion Pune and Hyperlegion. And in the, the agenda of the series is the kind of educating awareness about the blockchain hype to production network. Like, when we talk and educate the industries and the business people, it is confusing to let's just hide what Gartner cycle says, so there is a kind of maturity is not in the technology. So to kind of educate the industry and people how this scenario is changed in the last couple of years, and how Hyperlegion technology and Hyperlegion fabric is contributing and change this thinking. So, in the starting two sessions, the IBM TechMindra, Cheneard and other companies presented their production global networks, and trust your supplier, future techs, SNAPSR and many solutions presented. Then, in the third series, Gari Singh and the Hyperlegion fabric contributor talked about how the Hyperlegion fabric technology changed in a couple of years, like adding the different features, different mechanisms and all about. So this four series talk to give the update about the, now the newcomer in new technologies and new founders are also considering the Hyperlegion fabric tech and applying in their solution. So the first presentation we have from the Anzul Jain, he's the co-founder and CEO of HeCode, and HeCode is some kind of healthcare solution, so it's not just only the electronic health record, it's a couple of different healthcare solutions in the one umbrella. And they are using the Hyperlegion fabric and I think it's good to be present in this current situation of COVID and recently the mandate in some kind of by the Indian government to kind of mandate the digital records for the healthcare. So, all to you Anzul. Yeah, hello, thank you Kamlesh, thank you for the introduction. So, hello guys, my name is Anzul Jain, I'm co-founder at HeCode. At HeCode we are working on smart healthcare solutions. So a little bit about HeCode. HeCode is working on personal and connected electronic health records management system with blockchain technology and a patient management system to make medical practice easier. Our major focus is on maintaining health records digitally so the patients can get their health records at one tap anytime anywhere in the world. The product that you are building is interactive and intuitive. It's generally for the businesses like clinicians, hospitals, diagnostic centers and everybody that is in the healthcare industry and serving the patients. We are building this product with a vision that we are giving the control to the patients of their medical data, which is not yet being done in India and most part of the world as well. All this is being developed on EHR standards of India, HL7 and HEPA compliance as well. Now if I talk about the healthcare market, the healthcare market is not very well established in India and there are a lot of problems with it. The problems come like complexity with the health records. Due to the very nature of the centralized healthcare system, complexities over record keeping and communication can be hindered. The records are also sometimes lost and unfortunately the patients have to pay in the end. If I talk about a country where there is no centralized system, the patients have to carry a physical record to every organization that they go through. If as a patient I have to consult another doctor, then I will have to either carry all the documents or get everything checked up again for that particular doctor. Then there are problems like medical insurances and frauds as we always have an increasing problem and many anti-fraud associations also estimate that hundreds of millions of dollars are lost each year due to fraud in medical industry. Then there are lack of reliable reviews. As we know whenever a particular doctor in 2020, a particular patient goes out in the search of a medical service provider, they go for online reviews. But all those online reviews like much e-commerce websites are unreliable and fake as well. Then we have the problem of fragmented health record. Again, if I talk about different healthcare institutions like let's say two big hospital chains, they have their own EHR platform. But they do not, their EHR and patient management services are not interconnected, which means that the data is shared freely within the organization, but the patient doesn't have access to it. So for the overall healthcare industry sort of creates a silo effect for which again the patient has to pay. And I think in 2020 it's high time that we, where everything is accessible at an instant, it is very unfair for the patients to not being able to access their own data that easily. Then all the software, whatever software the healthcare organization is using in the back end is not made with the intent of patient centricity. Patients are very much engaged in the decision making regarding their health and even consulting multiple doctors has become an accepted course of action. But it's not very easy to do it if you are in the later stage of the treatment. Then comes the inadequate patient privacy. You guys might know that in India, it just, it was just in news yesterday that big healthcare chains were found out that their data was leaked from their laboratory management system and hospital management system. So I just want to shed light on how big this issue is, because the patient, the softwares even if they are cost effective or they are easy to use, they are not as good as they should be in terms of medical privacy, because medical data as we know is very sensitive. I come into the proposed solution. How it helps. We are including every medical agent, which includes doctors, laboratories, pharmacies, medical insurance vendor, and bringing them under a bunch of products that are interconnected to blockchain. The products are easy to use, they are highly efficient, they're cost effective, and they're secure as well. They're easy to use because we are paying special attention on the medical workflow of the doctors and all the stakeholders included. They're secure and cost efficient because we are implementing this on a blockchain and they're highly efficient because as we estimated, it almost saves a particular doctor 20% of the time per visit when they are using a software like this. In India, very less number of doctors are actually using practice management software during their practice. Our first product is our smart healthcare management solution. It is essentially a patient management system, and it has the classic patient chaos check in. It has it is integrated with the laboratory management system smart inventory management system for the hospital and medical billing software as well. So we are bringing every software that hospital organization needs under a single software for which the permission can be granted based on the needs of the particular hospital. Since it's highly customizable, it actually needs a lot of space for the hospital administrator and the clinic management to customize it in their own way at zero added cost. This is an overview of how the software looks. Since it's a full fledged patient practice management system and in EMR basically, and it can be customized on the basis of the practice and options can be removed and added as per choice and billing. Then other one is a consumer health app. The consumer health app is essentially for the patients to access their digitized medical records so that so the digital medical records which are available to them by the doctor. But apart from that, it can be used to grant access to a particular organization and revoke access as well as patient controls their own data. There's no other organization that can out bar them. In addition to that, the particular patient can also book doctor's appointment book medicines online and diagnostic services as well. This is a mock up of our consumer health application. The first one is the homepage and as the user profile. Third is how test doctors and medications can be booked and fourth one is how they can access their own medical records, which is segregated into different sections and everything is digitized not photographed but digitized. This is the market like the global market is of $207 billion healthcare market, healthcare IT market, and it is expected to rise to $390 billion by 2024. The players who have a grip on the market are not essentially changing their product according to the doctor's workflow. A lot of doctors in the market stay away from these products. The benefits of HECOD includes an extended user control. Since we're using blockchain, the patient becomes the owner of their own data which is not yet being done and they can grant access and revoke access in a secure and efficient manner. The health data revolution is coming because we're bringing it in as we are making the data available from multiple different organizations and yet we are not centralizing it like countries like Canada have tried to do. We are decentralizing it which is providing it with more security for the data, more reliability and yet it is available to every healthcare organization which the patient wants to be with. We're bringing in transparency as everything that happens over blockchain is auditable in a manner and can be used as a tool to make the whole process very transparent. With the help of the blockchain, the interclinical communication is also increasing as most, when the patient's data is available to two different doctors, they can actually access it which is not yet being done as every organization uses their own patient management system and most organizations do not use it. We are obviously working on medical data security as that's one of the reasons why we are actually implementing blockchain because we want to make it as secure as possible. We are digitizing on blockchain because our priorities securing the patient data that the data has maximum security from cyber threats and theft and blockchain is both transparent and private and permission. Due to hyper ledger, thus it keeps the identity of the patient secure, then it's quick and efficient. And again, the patient controls the data decentralized nature gives full transparency and control of the data to the patient and not to the healthcare organization which is currently true. So we are using hyper ledger because it's private and permissioned blockchain. There's no unknown identities can access the data. Again, increased data protection due to permission nature interoperability which is very important for any healthcare organization and multiple of healthcare organization as well. Then again less competition is required for transactions, which makes it more feasible in terms of cost. All the organizations can access the patient's data when the patient wants them to. For example, if I am a doctor and you are a patient, you can give me time based access so that I can access your data, I can go through it, I can read it and I can append it, but it's on your call when you want me to do it. So we are essentially giving the patient the complete command over their data. But this is how it looks. This is the kind of organizations that you are trying to include its English patient hospital pharmacies insurance, and then the applications that we have our EMR, a consumer health app and medical inventory management solution and medical billing software. It all goes through and all the organizations get connected to each other through the blockchain. So the first use case for our practice the decentralized medical records and interoperability medical organization generally have different HR vendors, which makes it inaccessible to the patient. The data stays with a particular organization but the patient cannot really access it. If they want to access it, they need to go, they need to visit the organization, get a physical copy and then take it to another organization. So this creates a silo effect and the patient has to suffer. When I talk about this, I am also talking about all the data, which could be diagnosis, investigations, results, medication and allergies, and the lack of the increase of this risk increases the medical errors and incurs additional costs on the patient. And most of these errors, as it is known, are due to the attributed workflow and communication errors in communication and human computer interface and not by the medical practitioners. So to solve this particular problem we bought in hyperledger and so that the entire longitudinal patient data can be retrieved anytime by the patient and the healthcare organization when the patient wants them to. These health records are accessible without, aren't accessible without permission granted by the patient and like again, if a patient visits a hospital and he has been, that person has been treated there previously at any other organization, their data is accessible to this particular organization as well, no matter where they got treated the last time. So this is the kind of interoperability we are trying to bring in, so that all the stakeholders and all the medical organization regarding a particular patient is connected in a way. And patient controls who access it, but every organization can add data to it when they want to. Second is the lack of patient centricity and like I said patients are becoming much more engaged in their own decision making regarding the medical workflow and which means they are they have an active role in managing their medical decisions. Now, again, in 2019, seeking multiple opinions has become a preferred way and a preferred course of action as well. And this is being hampered by the current HR solutions, because every organization has a, because every organization has a private practice management solution and which due to which the patient does not really have an access to the data. Also, these softwares are highly insecure, insecure. Since the patient does not directly control the data due to these practice management solution, medical data mobility is impaired. The solution that we're trying to bring in for this is that with the access, we are giving the control to the patient instead of the organization, we are bringing everything online and nothing is on premise for any of our clients, the patient, the owner of the data and the patient can grant access to whatever organization they want to. It could be a hospital, a small clinic, a laboratory, and it's in the hand of the patient and not the particular organization. Third use cases again the patient privacy and data ownership. Patient privacy is the cornerstone of the good medical practice is important for both doctors and patients, patients give their true medical information, but the HR does not allow patient to have control over who gets to see which portion of data. So, if I visit a particular organization, and they do not, I share my data with them. I don't get to choose which particular doctor or which particular lab should see my data. The organization decides it again, but this shouldn't be this way. And to do that, what we are trying to do is that we are trying to make sure that the patient's data is not accessible directly on the blockchain, but as it's rather gets accessed by any medical organization, then the patient wants them to. Yes, and there is a time check. So, can you tell me any minute? Anyway, this is the last slide. Yeah, okay, thanks. So the blockchain, the blockchain will also act as a tag to indicate whether the patient's data has been stored in an encrypted format or not. This may take a very much safe and tougher to crack than the current medical systems as the current medical bills, the medical systems are not really secure. Even when they are on premise, they are not completely secure from from the people working for that organization as well. Only approved medical practitioners can access the data. And among those medical practitioners, only the ones that are approved by the patient can actually read and write the data, right, append to the data. So this inherently audible and timestamp data increases transparency and in the healthcare management and brings greater trust to the healthcare system. Thank you guys. You can contact me through the email number mentioned here. Yeah, thank you. So there are a couple of questions in the QA. Can you please respond there? Okay, just a second. Okay, so can you stop saying I will introduce next question. Yeah. Hello, from the hospital is a founder of Pisay and they are building the kind of some kind of interesting thing about the asset facial ownership about the green track green text, maybe some kind of solar energy or electrical or something. And I think they have good use case. Hey, thank you, Kamleesh. One second. Let me just share my screen. I hope it's visible. Yeah, it's visible. Thank you. Okay, great. Great. Oh, once again, thanks a lot Kamleesh. Thanks to the Hyperledger team. This is the second time we're coming in into a Hyperledger presentation. The first time we came in with some overwhelming response. So yeah, once again, thanks a lot. We'll stop with that. So, just to introduce myself, right. I'm a co founder of a brand new fintech company called Pisay. We basically started off about seven months back. In the most basic terms if I were to explain what we do, I basically say that we create a brand new avenue for retail investors like you and me to invest into sustainability based projects, right. Like Kamleesh rightfully told are things like renewable energy, electric mobility, urban agriculture and things like that, right projects that contribute to social and environmental impact positively. We basically wanted to create a product where people could really attach to that instrument, not really think of it as being just another investment platform, but being something that they actually care about and relate to a being in the sustainability sector itself. There have been quite a lot of startups that have come in. In fact, fractional ownership as a concept itself has been tried and tested and quite a lot of models, quite a lot of asset classes but what we really focus on is the sustainability. So if I were to just give you a quick run through right of how the sustainability sector looks today. You basically see just in India alone, right. Our target is about getting $51.8 billion worth of renewable energy and most importantly solar energy right in India itself by 2022. And in India you'll see about 67 million retail investors who's willing to have the money and invest in projects like this. The scale and scope like this when you look at it for any entrepreneur it's basically like an opportunity that's going to be missed right so you really want to get in solve the problem and you see the scale there. Unfortunately, when we actually came across this problem we realized that there is a problem in terms of the scale of operations itself. Right, there is an issue in terms of in terms of management in terms of auditing in terms of running this whole process end to end. There's an issue because a lot of those things that you see because it's asset backed and fractionalization here in India basically means it's going to be flooded with a lot of paperwork. And when you're talking about sustainability in general you realize that there's a lot of impact based conversations that start coming in right. The fact that you use solar energy over any other form of energy basically means you're going to talk about the amount of carbon sequester, the amount of green has a greenhouse gases that's been reduced the amount of new jobs that have been created impact factors like this while make sense project the project does not really have a standardized model across different projects right so you'll see different people coming out with their own metrics in terms of how they define impact. There's once again there are a lot of sustainability focused groups in India right easily when we went through Google. We were able to pinpoint about 100 to 150 sustainability groups who are working in climate action today, but while there is a superficial level of collaboration that needs to be some form a level of technology that needs to come in to make that collaboration even more substantial. Right, and most importantly when it comes to finance and fintech based applications, there's quite simply a lack of regulatory model between the technology and the regulators itself. Right, especially when we talked about asset fractalization and asset ownership. So, looking at these problems in the sustainability sector we basically framed our own problem statement right what we were going to solve. We realize there are three basic problems that we're going to solve. First and foremost, we wanted to create an alternative investment product, keeping sustainability as a core of our offering. The problem with sustainability based products is it's not exactly a default choice for people. The entry barrier for a lot of them is very high. Now no one really wakes up in the morning and says hey listen I'm just going to sell my petrol scooter and go buy an electric vehicle because it costs anywhere between a lack, lack and a half compared to the 25,000 that it would take to buy a petrol based scooter, fossil field based scooter. The second thing is obviously record keeping and management and audit rate. In the most bare bones of asset fractalization, you'll realize that it comes down to the basic paperwork that you've been used to a lot of times people come in as partners into the companies. There's signatures, there's authorities, there is no organization that has the regulators in the middle, there's a lot of paperwork that comes in. And most importantly, impact being sustainability being the core of what we're offering. We really wanted to create a product with the technology that we're building to standardize the understanding of impact itself. And how we could bring in accountability into these projects to see hey listen, how do these projects start maximizing their impact goals and how can we track them. With all of this blockchain to be very honest, as and when you see through our solution, you'll realize that blockchain is quite simply the best possible fit into what we're doing. Now blockchain itself as a technology has gone through a lot of ups and downs, a lot of realization. Initially it started out being cryptocurrency and ideally people just equated blockchain to cryptocurrency one is two one. But when technology started evolving, you had Ethereum coming in, you had Hyperledger doing some fabulous job between 2015 to 2019, with a lot of companies like Walmart and IBM coming in and starting to push the idea of blockchain as an enterprise solution. People started looking at blockchain being more than just a cryptocurrency. They realized that there's an actual business use case that you could solve using blockchain. For us, the two most important principles of blockchain that we are using is ideally tokenization and the idea of collaboration itself, the idea of collaborative networks. Now, to solve our first biggest problem, the fact that we're doing fractional ownership of assets, what we really wanted to create was to create a basic blueprint. Now in Pisay itself, we are hosting a wide variety of asset classes on the platform, each of them having its own pros and cons. You have renewable energy investments which are more like long term investments. You have solar energy, you have wind energy, fractionalizing that looks at a longer period of time because the asset lifecycle itself is about 10 to 20 years. You also have invoice discounting, which is something we're looking at, which are basically invoices raised towards green projects, which are mostly short term. And then you have electric mobility, which is midterm and then urban agriculture, which is again midterm. All of these asset classes when you look at it are basically revenue generating assets. The underlying asset irrespective of what it is, it will just end up being a revenue generating asset. So why don't we just blueprint the process of ownership? Does it really matter for me while auditing to know whether it's a renewable energy asset or a green and voicing asset or an electric mobility asset or an urban agriculture asset? Because at the end of the day, the basic properties of the asset are common across all of the asset classes. There's the amount of term that it is surviving, which is basically the asset lifecycle. You basically have the returns that it gives, you basically have the number of people who could own that asset. So what we ended up doing is we started thinking of ourself as a fractionalization as a service company. We believed in the idea of that Internet of Value model. What we felt was if we could abstract the kind of asset classes that we have using blockchain itself. If we could tokenize some of these assets and keep only the bare bones essentials of being just that financial product, we could basically streamline this whole process in terms of buying, selling and transfer of ownership. So in the most basic terms, how our tokenization model works is pretty simple. What we basically do is we create an identity token for every asset. An identity token is basically a digital representation of a physical asset. It has some of the bare bones essential information of that asset itself, which is basically saying characteristics like the rate of return, the period of when it was instantiated, when is it going to end, and the list of all the owners of that asset itself. An identity token associates with only one asset and there's only one token per asset and it's not fungible. Every identity token that is issued for the asset is further issued with 100 ownership tokens. Now the number 100 is chosen because what we could do is name it like percentage of ownership. So 100 tokens basically represents 100% ownership and if you owned 1% of the asset, you'd basically own one ownership token. Now all of these ownership tokens are basically fungible, which means they work like any other currency. You can transfer it. So any form of ownership for that person is basically identified through these ownership tokens itself. What this allows us to do is to basically take all of these varieties of asset classes, look at all of them as just digital representations and tokens. So for a retail buyer, all he has to do is, hey listen, I just saw solar energy project that gives me 12, 13% return per annum. You know what, I'm just going to buy this now without having to worry about all of the paperwork that goes in the back of it. What we've done is because there's greater level of accountability and auditability that comes with the process like this. We are able to automate the process at the back of it without having to make the user worry about it. And what we've done internally as an implementation is we've created a user wallet, which if I were to give you a real world parallel would be something very similar to a DMAT account in a shareholder. So what we do here is the user wallet holds all of the ownership tokens across the different asset classes. And on a month-on-month basis, you would get returns, basis which asset and how many tokens you own for that asset. Now, the core principles of what we're doing, which is basically asset rationalization and ownership got significantly more easier in a model like this for us, because when you think of it as just a physical process itself, right? We think of it as partners coming into companies and say, hey, listen, what's this partnership agreements like? What is the percentage of ownership he has on a month-on-month basis, start editing it? Who are the new partners? Who exited? Give that entire audit trail got supremely easier when we went into a process like this. Now, we'll delve into this a little bit more while we answer what the second problem is, right, which is collaboration. We realized that in terms of climate action itself, like I said, there are hundreds and hundreds of climate collaborative companies as well as forums that are working towards climate change itself. In India alone, like I said, when I googled it, I could easily find about 100 to 150 of them. What lacks over here is the understanding and a proper definition of what impact really is, right? Today, the fact that I'm, you know, there's a pandemic and no one's really going out, I could basically say the fact that I used, I didn't really go out of my house and use my scooter. I basically saved this much amount of carbon, right? And I reduced this much amount of greenhouse gases. There isn't exactly a proper framework in terms of understanding what impact really is. So what we did essentially is we reached out to a lot of these climate collaborative action companies and forums, right? And we went down to them and asked, hey, listen, why don't we really sit down and make a metric that can be understood by everyone and used by everyone, right? How exactly can we bring in standardization into this process? Essentially what we wanted to do was to create a measurability factor, right? Now for each asset class, you'll realize that there are different kinds of impact that's actually created. For solar, if you take example, you have the carbon footprint reduction, there's number of trees planted, there's number of jobs created, heavy metals sequester. You look at electric mobility and you start looking at things like, hey listen, the amount of carbon dioxide emission that's reduced. You look at urban agriculture and you'll see the amount of heavy metal usage that's reduced, the amount of fertilizer usage that's reduced. Each asset class ends up having its own impact factors, right? And we need to embrace that and start accounting that because there's some genuine value to it. So what we started doing was for every rupee that is saved due to the carbon footprint reduction, we gave it something called a thousand impact score. For 15 rupees, for every one lakh rupee that's invested into a solar project, you'd realize that 15 rupees are saved on carbon footprint reduction. Four rupees are saved because of trees planted. Eight rupees are saved because of the jobs that's created and there's one rupee that's actually saved because of heavy metal sequester. So we wanted to make this impact accountable and standardized across different asset classes. We're in conversations right now with about five to six climate action groups to make this a de facto standard. We're working alongside with them to see how we can standardize this process. And one of the things that we're really trying to do right now, which is a core and core value for us is to create this impact consortium, right? A consortium of climate action groups who come in and adopt this metric as a de facto standard across different green projects and sustainability based projects. And while this is not a core of our product, this is something that we're really, really trying hard to push forth and adopt, right? Because the more people that come into a platform like this and more people start speaking a similar language of impact, you realize that a lot more people are going to start seeing impact the way it is, right? Imagine trying to take out a carton of milk, turning back out and seeing an impact score of 100 points or 200 points. You realize that for every packet of milk that you buy from, let's say one vendor, you're basically creating 200 impact score because you've created brand new jobs because of it. Now impact consortium is core of what we're doing and it's possible only because of blockchain because what we are doing right now is onboarding some of these climate action groups onto a consortium network using hyperledger fabric, right? And hyperledger fabric is a core of the technology that we're building here.  To be very honest and frank, the amount of support that we personally got from the community, right? Right now versus what it was probably two, three years back when the documentation was really, really difficult to get in, right? The position that we're in right now is super convenient for anyone who wants to look at collaborative networks as a default choice for the solution, right? If you believe that there is a business model that you can build around these collaborations, right? Around companies that are similar to the problems that you're solving. And you say, hey listen, I think if we work together on this, there's a little more credibility because today, if I am able to get in 6, 7, 8, 10 climate action groups together to build this consortium, right? There is value to this impact score that I'm talking about, right?  The guy's going to turn back and say, okay, what's in it for that?  But when I tell him that there are 10 other groups that believe in the same idea, there are 10 other people that measure it the same way. There's genuine value to it. So there's a lot of credibility that can grow into your business model itself by the use of blockchain, right? Beyond the idea of saying, hey listen, your data is secure, cryptographically hashed, all of that story makes complete sense. And that was blockchain as understood five years back. We already know this. What we really need to harness right now is build unique business models that revolve around this idea of consortium, right? That revolves around the idea of collaboration. In the essence of what we're building, a lot of our co-principles aligned very well with hyper legit technologies, right? The three of the most important things that we always wanted to work on was empowerment, governance and democratization. What we wanted to do with what we were building is empower both people who are investors on our platform, as well as people who are providing the assets on the platform, right? Now, what we do with this is basically provide people, detailed investors like us the opportunity to invest in sustainability. But at the same time, when you look at the people who are providing these assets itself, we're providing financial tools like this so that we can finance their products. Now, how we believe sustainability as an issue is going to be solved is by two things. You either adopt sustainability or you invest in sustainability. Adoption has a huge capital barrier, right? But investment is basically you investing money that you've already saved, just as much as you save. So we allow people to put money in there and at the same time finance a lot more green projects, accelerating the growth of sustainable solutions and accelerating the amount of adoption that takes place in terms of sustainability. In fact, we're in conversation with a lot of projects in terms of electric mobility. We are financing about 200 electric vehicle batteries, which is going to further move ahead of bike sharing and bike rental processes here in Bangalore by adoption of green projects. We also have governance, which brings in a high level of accountability into the process, right? Which is the core of what blockchain systems are. And finally, democratization. About four years back, sustainability projects were being financed, right? It's not like we are the first ones to bring in financing to sustainable projects. But what we're doing right now is bringing sustainability based investments down to retail investors, which wouldn't have possibly been, you know, a solution that we would have thought of if it wasn't for thinking of this entire model of tokenization. Just to give a disclaimer right now. The tokenization idea is the backbone of framework to make our accounting process and auditability process a little more simpler. It's not really a solution when all solution for all right. You don't really cut down on the paperwork that's still a back in work that's going on. But what we believe is when more and more people start adopting the idea of tokenization when more and more people start building these consortiums. Regulators at the end of the day must understand and will understand the value of using technologies like this. With that being said, we are currently in a closed beta. We are housing about 30 to 40 retail investors who are internally buying and selling assets. We haven't really made it public right now, but feel free to go to pisay.in at any time drop in your details so we'll get back in touch with you. We're a very lean and agile team of three people, two people focusing on tech, one guy focusing on finance. So we're just a call away from helping you out with what you're doing. Once again, I like to end this presentation by thanking hyperledger, the team, Kamlesh for just texting me one day and saying hey listen can you just talk about what you guys are building because a platform like this is really helping us. If you'd like to see what we're building, you'd like to be a part of the platform you want to help us test this out. Feel free to go to pisay.in and drop in your details. We'll get back to you as soon as possible and onboard your own platform. Thank you Kamlesh and sorry for if I exceeded the time. That is fine. So thank you. I think you are building in kind of climate action. So we at Hyperledger also have a climate action SIG group and we are building something. So maybe you could contribute something there too. So I already said the link in the chat could have a look. Absolutely, absolutely. As a couple of questions maybe you could directly answer in the. I will answer that in the chat box. Absolutely. Thank you. So thank you Fran and over to you. Great, well thank you Kamlesh, thank you Kostab. I obviously were really excited about the application of hyperledger technologies to the fight against climate change and in the reinvention of the way that electricity markets work. I was really fascinated to hear about that. Also really appreciative of the conversation about the application of blockchain technology to healthcare and to medical records. That was actually four years ago when I over four years ago at this point when I started with hyperledger. One of the areas I thought that would be most transformed by the application of distributed ledger technology would be the way information was managed in the health IT space so really excited to see that picking up speed in India. So I'd like to shift over now and spend our remaining time together the next 40 minutes or so with three of the people who are really helping take this technology. I global in a very in a very transformative way and aligning their businesses around applying that technology to some really interesting challenges so I with that I'd like to introduce three individuals who be joining us for a panel conversation about that impact. I'd like to start with Shyam Nagarajan who's the director of go to market blockchain networks for IBM services. Also joining us will be Rajesh do do who's the VP and practice leader for blockchain and cybersecurity at tech Mahindra. And finally Morali Sapa, who's vice president of engineering at chain yard and IBM tech Mahindra and chain yard are all members of hyper ledger IBM of course being one of the founding ones and working very closely with both chain yard and tech Mahindra on different projects. So I really excited to have the three of you here. Why don't we start with Shyam. If you could talk a little bit about some of the work that that you've been doing with at IBM with with hyper ledger technologies just to give us a flavor and then I'll hand the mic to the other two as well afterward. But just spend a few minutes telling us more about kind of your your the different projects you've been involved in. Alright, thank you Brian. It's interesting my journey into blockchain and hyper ledger has been it's three and a four years. So almost the same time as you've been Brian ever since we started the decision on, we needed to have a blockchain for business and it needs to be a run from open source organization. Since then, we probably have engaged with about 2,500 plus clients around the world doing different engagements all the way from. Hey, I just want to know what blockchain has helped me figure it out. I want to do it at a PLC level and technology level to okay I know what it can do but I want to do it at an industry level I want to do it as a differentiator for my organization so help me build this into a production level application as of today and Jerry would suggested we have 1100 plus blockchain networks running on infrastructure and as well as a good portion of them in production doing active live transactions for themselves and their customers. So we have come a long way along. I truly believe that the blockchain market is mature where the conversation is no longer is this technology viable to more of what can I do for me and how quickly can I get value from it, which is good conversation. And or the course of four years we have learned it's not just about the technology. There is governance there is business models and monetization and as well as how do you put your arms around the ecosystem and make everyone feel fair while participating in these exercises these networks, transacting networks. So I'm very eager and willing to share my experiences with the rest of the group here. Thank you very much. I am and Roger, why don't we move to you and I'll note tech behind her has become I just like with IBM and chain yard a hyper ledger certified solutions provider so I really appreciate a tech manager supported that direction and your leadership on that. Could you tell us a little bit about some of the projects that you've been involved in. Yeah, thank you Brian at tech M we do, we do a lot of things in the blockchain space. If I have to categorize into three main areas. One is platforms where we build platforms to address some of the tough industry problems. The second one is help our customers to integrate blockchain into the native applications. Some of them are basically looking at blockchain as a trusted middleware or to replace some of the legacy technologies like EDI with the blockchain. That's what we do. And then the third we work alongside with several of our global customers to help them develop their own blockchain based applications or blockchain based protocols and some of some of them could be you know proprietary protocols a case in point is Samsung, they have next ledger, which is very, very compliant with hyper ledger, as well as the next ledger is compliant with Ethereum so we've been working with them to develop the stack further, whether it is in terms of including an accelerator or bringing in new services on top of that. Our focus has been primarily from a perspective of an enterprise customer, where in we've been encouraging our enterprise customers to look at creating their own chain, especially in the context of the current digital transformation and in the context of the current pandemic, where some of the traditional technologies have failed them miserably, we've been advocating them to look at blockchain as an important driver of two things one is in terms of digital transformation. And the second one is in terms of how do they drive network effects, along with the set of suppliers as well as as partners as we speak. We are also, we are also involved in a very, very interesting initiative, wherein we are putting together a blockchain based platform to track COVID vaccine in fact we have received approval from the state government of Telangana. It, you know, of which Hyderabad is the capital city, and state government of Telangana has given an approval to track all COVID related medicines, and also the vaccine as in when the vaccine distribution becomes a reality on blockchain. So this is what we've been, we've been doing. Happy to talk further. That's, that's fantastic. Thank you. And Morali, you know, chain yard is done some really great work in in the space I sites a trust your supplier. Pretty frequently when I'm out there talking about impactful use cases, particularly in the aftermath of the global pandemic. Can you tell us a little bit more about some of the work that you're you're doing a chain yard is doing. Thank you, Brian. The chain yard we are in this space for more than five years. And our main focus is in the enterprise blockchain adoption and solution implementation. And we also have a lot of experience in concert in building in governance. All these helped us in bringing that trust your supplier solution to fruition like we worked with IBM we partnered with IBM and created the supplier trust your supplier solution which is a rapid supplier onboarding solution as you know it, which is causing disruption to the supply chain management as we know it. Right. It's basically we created a network of buyers and suppliers and verifiers of the data and also we brought in leading organizations representing various industrial verticals into our governance board. Right. And when we saw that there is a major gap in this healthcare industry when COVID hit right we were able to quickly transform this network and clone it into another offering called rapid, which helped all this connect the suppliers with the healthcare industry. And when it comes to the projects that we have been working on we did more than 30 plus projects for various clients in the space in various industrial domains like supply chain transportation logistics and financial services. And most of our projects are on Hyperledger about 70% of them and another 25% are on Ethereum and the rest are another blockchain technologies. That's in a nutshell. It's great. Thank you, Morale. So I'm going to ask some tough questions because I get asked quite a few, quite often, you know, some very, you know, grounding conversations about the about where blockchain technology really can have an impact out there. And it's great to talk about the theory and the possibilities and such but these days people are really they want to know what the results are and so one of the things that I find personally sometimes challenging is describing the impact of these applications of the deployments. Sometimes it does it does require us all to think kind of strategically but but a lot often the impact is around mitigating risk and sometimes we have difficulty in pricing the value of mitigating that risk right. So I have a question for each of you which is how do you talk about the measurable impact of the deployment of these projects and are there any examples you can share of where these projects have had kind of a measurable outcome that is, you know, you've been able to take and use this justification to grow these projects further. Who wants to who wants to start with that. They're plenty they're plenty of such projects right case in point is the trade acts consortium network that we run in United Kingdom. It's that company is minor Italy owned by tech Mahindra where it is about trade finance where in we have been able to put together about 14 or 15 banks on the consortium side. And now what we are doing is we are going on the enterprise side. For example, even in tech and we do about 100 to 200 million dollars of invoice discounting with a bank in Singapore. And to be honest, I can't name the bank but to be honest, most of the 100 to 200 million dollars of invoice discounting is done on a glorified Excel. And then when things go well, it's all good, but things don't go well. It's a vile goose chase in terms of, you know, what went wrong, who went wrong, and then it can also triggers a lot of dispute between the parties. So, so what we have done is based on the concept of eat your own dog food. We have, we have piloted that within the camp, where in this particular bank in Singapore. We've been mandated to them if you want to do invoice discounting which can go up to half a billion dollars, you need to come on to this particular platform, and then, and then see the benefit of the platform, either through smart contracts either through auditability transparency various elements that are involved in a complex invoice discounting process. So we have used that internally with the tech in another project that I can talk about which is very, very relevant in the current context, especially in United Kingdom. Brexit has happened. Everybody joyfully enjoyed the Brexit outcome. But now they kind of hard reality hit them. The hard reality is if you take Netherlands, if you if you take the distance between UK and Netherlands, hardly about 400 to 500 miles. And before the goods used to flow very, very easily because both of them happen to be part of EU. And now if they want to get the goods across they have to do what is they have to do the import export regulation. And they have, they have forgotten about import export regulations between UK and EU. So a hard reality hit on HMRC Her Majesty royalty and customs saying that goods can flow only if the documentation is in place. So they said, Okay, why don't we go back and reinstate what we used to do before.  And that practice is all based on paper. And in the current world, nobody wants to touch paper for export and import documentation because paper is a medium of COVID and then they kind of realized, Oh, boy, we are sitting on a big problem now. So what is the problem? The problem one is paper. The second one is in terms of an ability to collate information from terminal operating systems from port operating systems. And then aggregate the information from the third party logistics companies and the four party logistics companies. Now you have a random set of data which is coming from multiple sources and there is no system per se to aggregate it in a common interface and then drive trust on basis of that. So now we're working with them along with British Telecom, wherein they want to create an open reach kind of an initiative. Their desired state or in terms of their dream status, they should have in terms of drive through between these two borders and as the goods drive through the borders, the export import regulation should happen in a seamless fashion. So these are the things that we are saying I didn't mention to you about the COVID vaccine tracking as well. So in terms of what we are saying is especially where there is a need to solve some tough business problem where there is an interplay of multiple people and the data coming in all kind of formats. We are seeing a very good traction for blockchain and I can go on with. That's great. Shyam, would you like to get next? Yeah, I was just going to chime in. I mean Rajesh is pointing out where there are some really good business impacts. Say my experience is that business impact has always been point in time. An organization is embarking on a particular journey and at any point what they have invested versus what they gain as an outcome is always different. That said, what we have also seen is that the quickest impact that you see from organizations is usually cost efficiency. Cost efficiency doubles down. Sometimes it hides under the guises of compliance. It is operational efficiency, dispute resolution, all of these things. A great example is Home Depot. Home Depot has been on this journey of blockchain for a while. We instituted helping put together a reconciliation platform on Hyperledger Fabric between Home Depot and its suppliers. They have about 400 plus suppliers that provide them all kinds of goods. The issues, there's a big chunk of their invoices that goes into disputes because thoughts break. What ship wasn't what was received and therefore goes into a bucket and the bucket typically takes about 90 days to get resolved. That implies cash blocked for the supplier as well as Home Depot because it goes into some kind of escrow process to get resolved. A reconciliation system that was put in place cost efficiency primarily focused and it reduced the time it took to resolve a dispute as well as the dispute itself by about 65%. A huge reduction and it impacts in terms of liquidity and cash flow coming back. Another great example, a visible example is in the area of bank guarantees. Ligon.io, this is actually a consortium of banks based in Australia. We got CBA, Commonwealth Bank of Australia, ANZ Bank, Westpac and as well as some of their reality and utility companies in the market. Banks typically issue bank guarantees for any two businesses doing business together. This is a very tedious process because it takes about a month for these organizations to issue a bank guarantee. A month is a long time in terms of business. So having a platform that's been in production for about a year and a half now, it took down the time it took for a month to be issued a guarantee to a day. And that's a significant move overall industry optimization. And then the last one that I'll tell you is about opening up new revenue. Bolsa De Comercio in Santiago, Chile, Stock Exchange. It's a smaller market compared to New York or London Stock Exchange, but it's a very viable stock exchange for the market and they didn't have complex products. I mean, short sell and securities lending was an area that they were venturing in, very low volume, very low dollar values that was transacting. So we helped put together a platform that actually connected all their institutional investors and as well as brought in new international investors into the market and created a whole new market for them. Now it's transacting at $300 million a day in the market. So that's new revenue that the Stock Exchange did not have that they were able to get to. So the point is all of these are constructed behind very strong business initiative, business sponsorship, business anchoring that's necessary in order for you to get the business in fact. That's terrific. I mean, it just prompts me to note we should be working with with all of you on capturing some of these stories. I know sometimes it's hard to get permission from the customers and others to tell these give these examples of impact, but we try really hard to document and work with many of the companies out there on case studies that we put out on the hyperledger website to try to help people understand how to how to start to recognize the value of deploying these networks. I also know sometimes it feels like you really need a company that's honest with itself about where where they're hitting challenges often. The motivations there are sometimes on the CIO's part sometimes even further down is to kind of obscure the when things go wrong, you know, or the costs of doing things an old way, and it takes a certain amount of internal honesty to go. You know, this is actually a more complicated procedure than than we really need to deal with or something that that is resisted automation because it's been so personal driven personnel, personnel driven that you know that that seems like it's a challenge. Marali, can you give us some examples of some of the the impact that the projects that you've worked on have seen. Yeah, sure. Rajesh and Sam made some very good points that we can pick up any business process for that matter and look at the inefficiencies in it, and engineer it for a better efficiency right we can take care of all the observed issues, but when you add a blockchain what we observed is the transparency and the trust that brings it really amplifies those results right that's one of the things and I'll quote two of our projects. In our contract sourcing and management, we were able to eliminate the blocked invoices by 100% and 100% compliance to contract at paying terms. There was a 50% reduction in the cycle time, and a 30 to 50% reduction and cost per invoice. So this is one project and in our trustier supplier what we found was, there is a seven to 10 times ROI over three years period. Right, this is because of the reduced supplier onboarding, which used to take months before now we can do it in days on top of it we can manage the supplier lifecycle. Right, we have provided integration with multiple verifiers of the data so at the real time you can get any changes and you can calculate the new risk that is associated with any supplier. So what it means is for a buyer right there now can initiate a business with any supplier in no time. And for a supplier, we are providing a trusted supplier identity right that can that they can take with them to any supplier buyer and get onboarded in no time. So these are some of them are direct metrics that you can see, like 7 to 10 times ROI, and others are indirect where instead of waiting for three months to start your transactions now you're doing in days. Right, that really helps the businesses to grow. That's, that's fascinating. Thanks. Thanks, Marley. Before we jump into kind of a more technical side of this conversation. And by the way, I should mention, if anybody listening as questions they'd like us to take on, please submit them into the Q&A function because we will leave 10 minutes before we wrap up to try to talk as a panel about any questions that have been submitted. So let me ask kind of a more lightweight question, which is, you know, we've been on together, I mean, most of you as well I've been working on this for the last four years, this fight for the concept of blockchain on the enterprise blockchain for business right. The word blockchain, obviously, you know, goes back to that that Satoshi Nakamoto's white paper for Bitcoin, perhaps even people have noted earlier examples of that term. It's obviously a very technical term but it's become this this hype, a hype driven kind of word. And, you know, for a while we certainly have distanced ourselves from the cryptocurrency community I think pretty well with what we've done, but even that word blockchain has triggers some strong sentiments out there. And we ourselves at Hyperledger asked ourselves is that is that a word that still reflects accurately the kind of applications being built and the kind of impact that we're having. Obviously, one alternative is DLT, distributed ledger technologies. I've even heard people use the term multi participant business networks, although that doesn't quite roll off the tongue as easily. Have you guys since as you've worked out in the market. I, you know, is, does the word blockchain turned more people off or is that still a term that we think we can use to describe a lot of what we're doing. Who wants to take that first. I'll give it a shot. I think as when we started blockchain was very Bitcoin connected. It was a Bitcoin and the concept of a blockchain, you know, links connecting each other was very relevant and it still was as a relevant but I still, I believe that we have evolved as a community market as well as as a technology. And the value that organizations get is, you know, the concept of a decentralized ledger and decentralized technology, all of that is still around. I believe a more accurate way of communicating the values distributed ledger technology I think it's still applies still as valuable. You can probably connect it to all kinds of technology protocols that's out there including Ethereum and out to Dakota and others. It's a lot easier to communicate that than a blockchain. Blockchain still reminds people of Bitcoin and Ethereum and so that's, that's my take. That's it. I guarantee you this is going to go through several revisions and evolutions before we start on a particular tone. What else want to comment? Yeah, we use interchangeably to describe our product because at the end of the day it is DLT which is implemented using blockchain at the end, right? And as Shyam said, it has a negative connotation blockchain the moment you talk about it you'll be thinking about Bitcoin but at the same time, we observed that a lot of people think of it as a magic bullet. So we need to balance these expectations and then describe what we are doing. Okay. Why don't I jump into something a bit more more technical. And, you know, starting any new enterprise project for a customer, it can be a challenge right you know enterprise IT is you know there's so many touchpoints often to make it valuable that it can be a lot of work. And I think blockchain technology raises that even further given it's still a relatively young technology and to make it successful it's really, you know, there's no such thing I think I first heard this from IBM there's no such thing as a blockchain of one, you know, is a team sport, right. But, but technologically speaking, what have been some of the biggest challenges with launching these networks.  But where where perhaps there've been some biggest roadblocks as as you've worked with customers in getting that getting to a pilot, a proof of concept even, and then really really importantly to me as you transition to something production where you've got a now a community of stakeholders on what have been some of the biggest technical or technology related challenges. At least in my conversations with customers, they want to know the security aspects of blockchain. They also want to know in terms of for example if there is if they come across sub optimal functionality, or maybe a bug, how can how fast it can be addressed especially in our open source kind of a technology. In fact, we have reached out to Julian for help one of the world's largest manufacturer of computers. They wanted to know that they want to internalize this blockchain and replace completely the electronic data interchange for the purchase functions. And if they are investing so much in that kind of a functionality, and if they come across any of the security incidents or or bugs, how can they, how can they internalize an open source technology, wherein the entire community will run as fast as they as they want to, or how can they how can they get into the road map on an accelerated fashion. So these are some of the things that we, we come across. And of course, there are many operational challenges that most of these challenges come because of the nature of the environment in which they want to implement and also in terms of the network controls that they would like to implement. So this is more endemic to their network or to to their organizational context, rather than a technical challenge with the protocol itself. Yeah, just to read, reaffirm Rajesh's point. Only 20% of the blockchain projects is actually to do with the blockchain technology. The other 80% is other technologies including Kubernetes and security and IoT and AI because at the end of the day, the customer is trying to solve a business problem. And blockchain becomes that that big backbone framework for the data collection and confirmation of what they are as it goes through the process. What we find is that operationally, it introduces a lot of challenges, because now you have to maintain all these different technologies together in a pack that has to move in evolution. And, you know, I pledge I went from 1.4 to 2.0. That cost a lot of, you know, a heartburn for our customers who are already in production, how you got to move the data, you got to move the code versions and you have to make it all compliant along with making sure all the other technologies continue to work well together. So, but stopping back, this is not unusual. We have been, we have been in a world where we are used to technical debt. And this is one of those that we take on and continue to chug along. That said, in future, I would hope this gets factored in some of our decision making at the open source level, how to make it operationally much easier and simpler, and as well as integrated integrate into some of the other parallel technologies that exist in the market as well. Right, right. Hard to escape the whenever you're crossing a major release number. That's always an opportunity to do some refactoring some cleanup and changes to API is but of course that has ripple effects and can be a challenge if you if you really want people to keep upgrading quickly which with fabric I know, you know, the there's been a long term support LTS strategy around the the 1.4 release and now around 2.2, which is intended to help address that concern, which is, well if I'm buying into if I'm going to upgrade to fabric 2.2, how much longer, you know, before I have to take another disruptive change to a 3.0 or whatever. And that's 18 months after the date of release of 2.2, which was the LTS release for the 2x series. And even 18 months sounds very short. When you're thinking about enterprise systems where in many instances we're still running cobalt from 40 years ago. So, admittedly, you know, this is still a fast moving domain and there's some cost to being on the bleeding edge of that technology or even the, the, you know, the slightly one step back from bleeding edge. But, but there's also a lot of important innovation happening and performance improvements and features being added. So, yeah, that's that's certainly a challenge keeping people up. Any, any other thoughts on this topic? Yeah, I echo the similar sentiments basically security and compliance are the major pain points that we had to do a lot of convincing particularly with associated cryptography and when you're trying to deploy it globally. You know, if GDPR related issues are coming to like if the personally identifiable information has to be stored right there are many places where we had to store it off chain some of the data we had to decide what goes on chain and what goes off chain to meet these considerations. So that's, that's a major one, right. Data privacy is a major, and then comes the key management, right, multiple times we run into discussions with the clients, how like the participants how their keys are going to be stored on the blockchain, right and whether it is accessible to the others how the data is kept private. And how, how to make it selectively visible to the participants is another major concern. Right and the business network engineering like a sham has pointed out when we moved from IBP to version two right the moment it became from private to public, right, we had to do a lot of reengineering to make sure that it is all the, like, we had to make use of Kubernetes clusters and deploy them and then set up the firewalls and then make sure we do a lot of pen tests in the customer in the buyer environments to show them that and share those results with them. And we also had to do a lot of POC so to make sure that their identity and access management solution works. So we had to integrate into their SSO. So these are some of the things that we ran into. Yeah. Yeah. No, it strikes me that there is a whole field of architecture and and and engineering that is novel to this space about figuring out what goes on chain versus off chain.  So it strikes me that there's a field of blockchain architecture blockchain engineering that's perhaps as novel as say when sequel databases first started to emerge, and the field of database architect was really required to understand how the structure and of the database related to the performance expectations and the suitability for purpose in other ways so that that I think is one of the more challenging kind of long term aspects and it's certainly why, you know, it's important within fabric to have an examples repository and to have a lot of conversations in fact there's a there's a weekly call for developers building on top of fabric that's hosted by the the the fabric maintainers where people can say I'm trying to do this is the right way to use the SDKs or that sort of thing so I want to turn I we've had one question submitted which gets back to more of the kind of business setting, which is really about the application. I was asked by honor I'm sorry the question disappeared so I forget the full name about how do you convince companies to take a leap into this space, you know as a potential replacement for existing ERP solutions. And I think we focused a little bit on how do you make the business case around impact, but let me try to reposition the question a little differently which is within enterprises within companies. Obviously you all work with the budget, the budget, people have the budget to do some work, but it'd be interesting to me to understand, does the pressure for adoption of this technology tend to come top down where you know a CEO heard hey we should be looking into this or they are economists and they go we need to think and, and then it's kind of a top down driven kind of thing, but do you think it often, or as much or more perhaps a bottoms up kind of thing where an engineer or systems architect or or somebody in the partnerships program around a customer is saying no we really need a way to systematize this thing that we're doing informally today with pieces of paper and fax machines and that sort of thing. How do you see the case often being made inside of these companies top down or more bottoms up. I mean if it's okay with other panels. Let me start and then they can, we can add on. Go ahead. This is interesting position. Like the interest of blockchain as a technology is very appealing for a lot of developers in the market right so a lot of projects do get started at that level. There's interest there's hackathons and there is a hey I look what cool thing that I did in my organization because I play around with this technology. It's very valuable. I think that kind of innovation is interesting for organizations, but what we find is a lot of these innovation agendas die, because they don't get the right business support in the in the organization, right. What we've also found is that when we go top down say when, especially when organizations are looking to, I mean now is a good, good time where it's covered everyone is struggling with innovations getting to new markets new customers are actually starting to optimize and there's only so much cost efficiency and optimization that you can do within a company right now you can be the most efficient company in the world, but if you don't have new customers, then you don't have anyone paying your money. So, it's time to start looking outside the organization how do you get control over the processes that cross the enterprise founders. This is where blockchain really starts to appeal off late I've been finding more traction at the CFO level, because that's where at the end of the day invoices and purchase orders get cut, and they find it difficult to get a hold of how they manage their external interactions. It's a very interesting place where it goes. And then the other place where I usually find a lot of support is at the board of directors and the C, C level the CEO CEO, because they are looking at what new markets do I need to go what growth initiatives that I need to support and how do I really live from my competition. So, again, connecting all these dots, the innovation agenda helps them look at some what's possible, but at the end of the day doesn't connect back to the business agenda and doesn't doesn't grow as much. I'm not any morality or Rajesh any other thoughts. Really agree with, with Sean, in terms of there has to be a linkage between both the groups, but also in my experience, there is no one straight answer to your question. Because in some cases, you know, there's a very learned CXO or the chief digital officer who would like to explode this or somebody has joined an organization to lead the innovation function. And they have to show the differentiated approach. So then blockchain or any of the emerging technology becomes an important element of the approach. The, I've also heard scenarios where people at the mid level are very, very convinced about it, but they don't get appropriate budgets, not the attention from the, from the top layer. So they basically kind of went out the frustration saying they just don't get it but we want to do it our business needs it. I don't know why they don't, why they don't, don't get it. So that approach is, approach is also there. I've been in conversations where people after listening to the entire value proposition and the tech stack. They've said, you know, I'll just put Kafka over there and accomplish my requirements. So why do I need blockchain if I can put Kafka over there and then complete the task. So in terms of there is not much, you know, a holistic appreciation of what it is going to do from a technology perspective, and also from a business perspective, if you're putting a blockchain to increase incremental efficiencies in an existing business, I think that's not, that's not a good approach. Probably the guys who are involved in that project, all of them will get promoted, but the POC will not go beyond the POC stage. It will not, not progress into, into an enterprise adoption perspective. So it has to be seen holistically from a business perspective from a technology perspective, and also realize that some of the traps that are there with regards to their own understanding. And that is more important. So who is going to build the cat with regards to the traps of their own understanding or limitations in understanding pertaining to the technology. So if you address from all these aspects, then, then there could be a good potential. Morali and Ian, yeah, go ahead. Right, it happens both ways, right. Normally we get a top down requirement and also developers would be thinking about how to get into this kind of space. There's a lot of consultancy. So what we observe is whenever we get somebody with a requirement, we look at it from multiple points of view. We see whether they're just trying to replace an enterprise applications database with blockchain and say that it is blockchain or are they, is there a possibility of a network, right. Is there is a network there. It doesn't really make sense to go to blockchain or any other we can keep the data encrypted we can keep it the way we want to secure and all those things right. That's one of the things and the other major thing that we look at is to see if there is an anchor tenant and a sponsor. This makes a lot of difference. And most of the successful blockchain networks are the ones which spawn across multiple industries. Right, unless you have participants from multiple index segments of this, you really don't make much of an impact on top of it, whether there is enough interest for people to join as governance members and direct the future path. Right. And these items are in place. It doesn't become a success. Great. Well, this has been a really fascinating conversation I really deeply appreciative to Morali to Rajesh and Shyam for sharing your perspectives on both the business and the technology challenges but also really opportunities here. All of you have seen with deployment of blockchain technologies. With that, I'll hand the microphone back to Kamlesh to wrap everything up. Thank you all. Yeah, thank you, Brian and thank you everyone, Shyam, Rajesh, Motley, Haran and Julian and complete hyper leisure team, especially they helped me to organize this meetup marketing from the hyper leisure team site and I think Shyam and coming on board and Rajesh is agreed to be speak. So I think it's really great and I think it's a great learning when we even said that is recording so I think hundreds of people watch it. And when such enterprise leaders talk about the blockchain adoption, really inspiring and learning for all. Thanks as well to Ananda, Anand Mishra and Kaustab for their great presentations as well. Sorry, I was just saying special kudos to Kamlesh for keeping out Mr. Murphy this time around. Yeah, thank you. And thanks to everyone who helped put this together and to all of you for attending. It was great and certainly look forward to another, another early morning late night conversation with our international friends. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Thanks a lot guys.