Hi everybody. Welcome to the session. Thank you for attending. Thank you for showing up. I Hope you do enjoy the Drupalcon as much as I do so far My name is Bono de Vos. I come from Belgium I'm the co-founder and the current manager of a Drupal agency named Webstance. We are located in in Mons So with this session I wanted to come back on our growth over the last four years and See the benefits of a different kind of management So we lie pretty much on the involvement of the people or good common sense or collective intelligence and Today it's a real challenge. I think for everyone to hire or to retain talents within your company I think so I wanted I feel lucky when I look back at the revolution over the last years And I wanted to to share with you what I thought could have an impact in our management So first to start a little of background We discovered Drupal in 2007 At that time was still an employee working as an engineer in big telecommunication company and we were doing some Coding in the evening during the weekends as a hobby with my friend Nicola Who is also the co-founder of the company? Hi Nicola and our first contact with the community were through Videos from Drupal cons or through meetups Also through the issue queues. It's only in 2014 that we attended our first Drupal con in Amsterdam and We liked it pretty much Of course Maybe because we used to be scout together So we share some common values with the community Also, I think because we thought we could be involved in the community Be long-term to something that is bigger than us and We could play a role maybe in this community and I Believe that today. This is something which is a bit more difficult to transfer to the newer employees. I don't know if you share the feeling so Maybe an anecdote from this first Drupal con in 2014. I remember we were discussing on the booth the booth of one shoe with michel van veldt and We were asking him some advice whether we should hire first-time player or not and he was really encouraging us and He was planning us with 30 people So for us it looked really like a far dream unreachable dream and We didn't take him serious but today we are there and Okay, I think it was it was kind of visionary for us So we start four years ago Just before the pandemic 2019 We were basically two co-founders self-employed with a team with a few people and a few freelancers and We had accumulated quite some experience 13 years of experience working part-time on small medium Drupal projects and under five years of experience working full-time on bigger enterprise-class projects So we only could dedicate both time fully to Drupal when we had quit our job in 2013 so Everything was going pretty well. So why did we decide somehow to To move on and to accelerate and to start a Drupal agency Think there are a few reasons for that first we were involved into Some business groups Not related to Drupal and we were inspired by success stories from other entrepreneurs Then also Because we wanted to be able to delegate some work and stop working every evening and during the weekends So stop working full-time 24-7 Whether we succeed or not it's another story. Maybe I can do another talk about that. But still that was the purpose and also because Maybe with some sign of maturity we wanted to get some structure and some sustainability for a project and Also because we started to work on bigger project more ambitious project and we liked it a lot And we felt like you need to have more people more structure to be able to convince the customer To work on this kind of project. So the growth was bit necessary and This is also something that matched pretty well with what happened to the Drupal community and stop working for brochures or portfolio websites and Go for more ambitious projects So we wanted to start a company but not anyhow Our main objective was for sure not to reproduce what we didn't like from a professional experience or previous experiences And what we wanted was to involve everyone So to create a place where everyone could feel hurt could feel involved and Could have the opportunity to co-create the agency if they want to but they are not forced to if they don't want also Live is short. We spend so much time at work We think you should not get bored at work It's not always pleasant, but for sure you should not get bored So we started with these values Continuous improvement trust and responsibility to the people. So what we do we withdraw or ideal organization? We did that we had to make a business plan, of course, but that was not our driver we wanted to reach a company with 12 people and Okay, the goal and the figure they were rich within the year, but it was not our main driver has explained Instead it was more the common sense and Achieve an efficient organization This was also just before the pandemic and we were a bit lucky because the project never stopped during that time and Today we are with about 30 people so With this talk I want to to reflect on the growth and and see and share with you some of the tips and the tools that we have used to to adapt or organize organization to ever-growing number of people and to Try to involve everyone during the journey So For us the two main points were that we wanted to keep evolving Never be satisfied of what we had and also keep involving everyone So we had a monthly agency meeting for instance since the day one So involving people What we did at that time we were also in 2020 with 12 people During the pandemic we organized calls video calls and we asked them how do you see your ideal agency and So people came back so we didn't discuss figures or turnover. We asked them what do you want to? to do and so They identified five tracks They wanted to create a place Where they could inspire others They wanted to place What they could learn every day? We wanted to identify some common values that we could share between us We wanted to give back already to the community and to improve ourselves every day so to optimize our processes So at that time we've bought 12 people working in video calls sharing Excel files. This was working pretty well But of course as the company is growing at some point in time you must adapt your tools What we did as well was to define our mission vision and values I guess everybody does that. Do you know your mission value and vision values of your company? Yes, so no surprise but These ones they also have to evolve every day within your company And so we wanted to involve everyone in the definition of those and we needed better tools as I said So I would share a few tools. So the first one is the world cafe method Do some of you know this method? Lucas for sure other people So it's very easy tool. We like it a lot So the idea is that you have a question or a few questions and you spread the people among different tables And you have one host per table and then you address the question during 15 to 20 minutes Then you ring a bell you ask people to move from table to tables. And so we can easily come into contact with a lot of people And on the end of the session you just wrap up and put the ideas of all the people together So we use it a lot in our company. We use it for instance to to measure the The wellness of the people in the company because you need tools and you need to identify the good question to measure what you try to implement so This is very efficient and I think we like it and it's quite easy to implement and it's working well Another tool that we use every day is what we call the one-to-one, but more kind of mentorship program So we give everybody in the company 30 minutes every week to be Spending time in Paris, so there is one mentor and one mentee and they should meet face-to-face preferably out of the office They should not discuss code. It's not about hard skill, but it's more to develop soft skills and They can do whatever they like so they can go for a walk for drink whatever they like and Also important is that we we do not expect any feedback as measure from from this Sessions, they stay confidential. So this is very important to to create relations between people Of course why you're growing and You have a lot of new people coming into the agency. It's very difficult to know everyone and this is a good tool to have everybody Encounter the new people Of course, we also did some team building or celebration even especially after the pandemic It was very important to to keep the relation between the the colleagues and to to keep evolving together So it's essential today to to have these kinds of events so you understood we like to To try some tools to follow intuition to to test them But we believe it's also very important to measure and to collect feedback about these tools and what we are doing Because we need to adapt them every day. So We create questionnaire and surveys and this you can also do in collective intelligence So for instance, we said it was very important for us to to create a company with The well-being of the wellness of the the collaborators as a main target. So how can we be sure about that? So we use the world cafe methodology for instance to create a questionnaire and Identify the question that we should raise to the people to be sure We could effectively reach that So we use this questionnaire twice a year That's not enough. So we noticed we needed to to know a bit more about how the people feel So we created another one, which is a smaller one a quick survey with five to six questions For instance, and we use this one really as a barometer for company and it helps us to With five question to know how the people are feeling What is the mood and also it helps us because we cannot stay in contact with everyone It helps us to for instance if we have the perception that something is going bad It helps us to not stay with that impression of our time if the things are changing. So it's a real barometer So we use questionnaire and survey for everything we do We try to ask people their opinion after the team meetings for instance or after the one-to-one or Everything that we implement even trainings We try to to adapt okay, so So far so good the company continues to grow and It becomes impossible for us as confounders to follow and to support everyone Although we would like to because we like it a lot But okay, and sometimes I must admit that we miss a bit the time where we only Seven and we could spend more time qualitative time with everybody, but sometimes in pain some point in time It becomes impossible So the new peoples they have to be on board it not only about the Drupal stuff and the techniques, but also about What you want to do if your company your mission your mission your values your processes the Collective intelligence tools so everything takes time so the people they can help the team can help but They self they have also need for Answers they have questions. So we needed to put some structure So we first search for external support Before to bring the the capacity inside the team. So we have hired a dedicated office assistant we have also had Somebody in charge of human resources, but we prefer to call him a care of a care of the developer of the people and We have to invest time of course You cannot work on customer project during that time But it's very important to allocate enough time to take care of the people to organize Memo only meetings follow-up meeting listening coaching. So it's very important and I said people have questions they need answers and we wanted to to bring some Objective answers structure and sense and consistent So what we did we implemented an HR framework into the company? and With this framework we could identify rule description profiles and Set up mutual expectation between the people in the company. So if you get the impression some point in time that Things are not Evolving as fast as you would like the reason might be that you're expecting too much from some people and this kind of framework it helps us a lot to to understand what we can expand from in the company and Once you know that you can share it Everywhere so meaning already during your hiring process you can already tell to the people what you will really expect from them during their journey in your company also during the onboarding and during your annual evaluation process for instance, so this this tool this framework it helps us to To set up the frame To measure for instance the the competencies of the people the performances of the last year the potential Or the adequacy with the the mission vision and the values So during our journey we also met some point where we We asked ourselves to we still want to grow Why would we want to grow even further does it make sense? And so this is the point where we needed to step back between the co-founders and take time To do what to think about our purpose or evolutionary purpose So we knew pretty well What we wanted to achieve the result we wanted to achieve We knew how we wanted to do it that was clearly identified most important thing is why Why did we want to achieve these results and so It was essential for us to determine why we We enjoy your work why we stand up every day in the morning Was the fuel that runs your engine what would you be able to repeat every day without ever getting tired? So this is what is called the evolutionary purpose. It's a very important step in our journey, I think and and What's interesting about this evolutionary purpose, so okay, it comes from the funders, but Sometimes some point in time it's transferred to the company and it belongs to the company and it keeps evolving Which means that it can help us as a team to take some decisions looking at our purpose and Also, somebody could pretty well stand up and speak up on behalf of the company from that purpose and This as well you can use it Everywhere during your journey from the hiring process You should share your vision vision and value, but also your purpose and if you do that and If you find people who are aligned with your purpose and their personal purpose is somehow aligned with the collective purpose Then you can be sure that they will be involved and they will feel Pretty aligned with what you want to achieve and it will it will work better. So it's better to be fully transparent about that So, okay We wanted fine. We knew then at that point why we wanted to stand up every day So then we got motivated And once you're motivated you want to accelerate and you want to reach your result as fast as possible So at that time you think maybe we should define so some objective and key results But think you have understood now that we didn't want to reproduce what we didn't like in our previous experiences So we didn't want to set up. Okay, that didn't make sense to us So we tried something different and we still trying it at the moment So it's still something under testing, but what we did is the following We have asked people to start from our why Determine their own objective individually and in teams and They present it publicly to the whole team and also they will auto evaluate their objectives and there is a promise is that This evaluation won't be used in the annual formal evaluation And with this we believe we can make more progress and a bit faster progress But at some point in time, we also noticed that this was not Totally working not as fast as we would expect So we wanted to to understand the reason why it's not it was not working So what did we do?  It's called a starfish. Don't know if some of you. Yeah, you don't know it So it's a very easy one you asked question to the people for instance Why do you think we cannot reach our objective? What can you can we not work on our OCR enough and you ask people use sticky notes and tell us What we should start doing to do that. What should we do more do less keep doing or stop doing and You end up with a collection of sticky notes. It looks pretty nice But okay, it's a it's also fun to have this kind of tools and it works quite well doesn't take a lot of time It helps you to collect a lot of ideas quite quickly Okay, so a few more tools so communication is key really and I think it's the most difficult skill to acquire so we have Trend all the people in the company to the process communication model. It's a bit Similar to the anagrams or the discus. I don't know if some of you are familiar with some of these tools No, okay, so we try to explain a bit. What's the process communication? So it's about perception perception is the way you see the world It's like a filter a filter through which you see the reality and He will agree with me that do the way you communicate the way you The things are set is very often more important that the message itself So We have learned during this training that each of us are developing during our life history the characteristics of six different personality types They are also corresponding to six different colors There are six perceptions. So the thoughts opinions emotions imagination reaction and actions and These those six perception they correspond to six personality and each of them they have Strong points. So for instance the finger the blue one is somebody who is organized responsible and logic The persister the purple is somebody who is committed Caution's observer good observer The harmonizer is a warm person very sensitive and compassionate The imaginary is calm thoughtful imaginative You have the rebel with playful spontaneous and creative And last but not least the promoter Was very much into action and somebody who's very adapted it adaptable Persuasive and charming So during this training we had to to fill up a questionnaire and we receive back or personality structure and so You see we have six different colors and The order is fixed since you were two years old. It won't change anymore What can change is the level of development of each of this layer? At the bottom what you see is your base is the place where you found your resources Then the more you go up into the those layers the more it's for your difficult to to use this capabilities So for instance if this was my personality structure, I would be pretty comfortable into the actions Would be a good promoter a good sales guys for instance That would be very difficult for me to be organized and to move up into the blue layer and to fill up my agenda Or to use a excel files for instance so Also, I want to mention. It's not important to you don't have to see this as an objective to be developed in each layer That doesn't matter What's important is to know yourself and So this can evolve during your lifetime You can also have a face in this example It would be the harmonizer face and the face is your motivation your source of motivation Not everybody has a face it can also be just the same as your base so I Think personally that it's a wonderful to it helped me to to understand my reactions and to accept myself to to criticize myself and in many situations it removed frustration because I could understand the the reaction of the people and Yeah, get the motivation of the filter so it helped me to understand what was happening So it also gives you keys to open some Useful communication channels You know if you should use the interrogative communication channel or the directive because people expect different way to communicate And it works everywhere at home with partners your customer with colleagues, so you could Maybe change your the way you you do your sales pitch for instance if you could identify that people they are expecting figures or they expect planning or emotion or Opinions so you can really use it all the time. Also, you could adapt your website for instance that segment your audiences depending on what people want to To do with your project or with your solution so If you don't know it and if there is one take away to take from this session, I would recommend you to have a look at the process communication All right So the company keeps growing More people. So how can we address bigger topics bigger issues? So besides Lucas anybody has an idea of what we are doing here and beside web sense Nobody so we're doing a fishbowl a Fishbowl it's another tool. It's a very nice tool so the idea is that you You use it to to discuss collectively and you organize two circles with chairs and In the inner circle you have five to six chairs a moderator and Four to five people who are the experts of the people will start the debate and a free chair and there is another circle with people who are just observers And you start the discussion and the rule is only the people in the inner circle can speak And if somebody wants to participate in the discussion he has to stand up and to take the free chair and When somebody enters the inner circle Somebody from the inner circle has to leave and to go in the other circle So it's a very nice tool. We use it for a few months now. I think people really do like it and I also do Okay, so To finish a few words about reinventing organizations So while we were in your journey, we we met some point in time Maybe a bit more than one year ago the work of Frederick Lalloux about reinventing organizations and So Frederick he has Survey some companies and yes, I identify and categorized organizations And in this work, there is a category which is the teal organizations And we have recognized ourselves a bit and we at least we know that we have some common goals and The the teal organizations they try to reinvent themselves to reach three purposes So the first purpose is the self-management So a bit like us we we want a flat hierarchy. We don't want to create a pyramid so we expect from people to be self-organized really to to To take the responsibility and to be accountable and for this we have to create a place where the communication flow and The the information is available to everyone The second purpose is the wholeness so the idea there is that We should create a safe place where everybody can just be themselves They don't have to to wear a mask or to to pretend to be somebody else And they can just be themselves and they are accepted as they are the very important It's a bit something that we find also in the Drupal community, isn't it? Then the last the third purpose of the teal organization is the evolutionary purpose and And The idea is that the teal organizations they don't plan a lot the future What people are asked is to to listen to their purpose and to adapt themselves and adapt the purpose So we don't plan the profit The teal organization they just believe that if they follow the purpose that the profit will come so if you don't know the work about For the Kalu there is book it's available on the internet. So just have a look Okay, so it's already time to conclude so from the beginning we want to To keep the transparency and the good communication with the people we wanted to To have everybody involved so we had to have Hopeness and share transparently all the information to to everyone We wanted also to improve ourselves to to implement service collect feedback feedback is key and To improve ourselves every day so If you are in the same situation that we were 10 years ago and you are somehow inspired I would encourage you to start and just hire some people or Start a company and just go home So what would be your next challenges? Well, if we want to to stay with these people we still have to improve of course So we need to find other tools better tools to to communicate to implement our processes we need still to to adapt every day and Of course, we need to find good people who want to join with the same purpose Other than us and want to to take us a bit higher and further So that's it. Thank you So there is enough time to for discussion While you're preparing a question to the upper to the microphone remind you that we have opportunities to contribute today and tomorrow and Okay, you understood from the presentation that feedback is key So I want to know how I can improve for the next time. So please fill in the survey filling the feedback to Any question? Yes What is your purpose of your agency? Maybe you said it at the beginning I arrived too late You're lucky. I didn't say it So the purpose of the organization thing was I know it but in French, so I've written it in English Yes We want to create a place where we can learn and encounter people We want to work on projects with an impact We want to start to be cautious about our impact on the society and the environment and We want to create a place with the people. So we want to co-create the agency. So this is the current purpose Thank you so much for sharing. I really enjoyed your talk I also enjoyed kind of the workshops that you've been doing with your team and it obviously doing a lot of them in person I wonder do you come in person every day with your team? Do you have a hybrid model? How does it work logistically? So after the pandemic we encourage everybody to come back in the office. So we there are three days a week at least and Yes, I think it's important to to keep connection and to be in person It's not always possible, but as much as we can yes But it happened we did fish bowls with some remote people. So we had a laptop on the chair in the inner circle Hi, thank you for your presentation. Sorry my English. I'm French For me, it's a useful tool that you represent and For my manager, I think it's more of a financial issue. Do you know how can I convince him her to do that? I think you won't be able that's maybe something I should have mentioned I think You you have to start from the manager and they have to be convinced that they want to implement such things because otherwise It's it's very difficult You can try to do that in a department or a smaller team. You can use the Collective intelligence tools for instance within your team. That's already a start and this can already help I think but if you want to change the whole organization The manager have to be convinced and so maybe what you can do is just buy the book and you send them So was there also like moments where a new employee came on board or you were hiring somebody and they were not Up with this kind of process where they were looking for more hierarchy or less collective approach so It's it's a matter of maturity and we are not there yet not fully So it's true that not everybody is fully comfortable with this and some people they do need To get some more direction or some instructions of what they should do so it takes time and I think what's important is not to be in a hurry and to take the time it takes to to go there But yes, it can happen the question in the app or okay You still have time if you want or we are available to discuss don't hesitate to pass by your booth or to have a chat with four colleagues there In number there. So if you want to check the reality, you can also have discussion with them Thank you very much. See you


We have 25 minutes left in this particular session, and Michael, are you giving me the cue that you have to depart? I have to catch an airplane. You have to catch an airplane. So ladies and gentlemen, it's really the airplane, it's not symbolic that the UK member is leaving the panel. That's not what it is, not about the... Thank you very much. We won't overestimate and read into the symbolism of this particular act, but we wish you a safe flight back. If you will, you can push up the seat that way, it probably looks a bit better on the picture. Ladies and gentlemen. I'm fairly certain that in the midst of these very interesting and passionate presentations, there has been... We'll have an accumulation of some comments, remarks and questions. If that's the case, please indicate so that we can do a very quick Q&A session in the remainder of the time. If there are questions, please let me know by indicating and I will incorporate you. If that's not the case at this particular point, I have a couple of questions on my own, Minister Borrell. The issue of migration, obviously, and it's become very clear throughout the presentations here on this panel, has led to a rise of populism and populist parties throughout EU national parliament. Spain on the other hand, despite having gone through some hardship, economic hardship itself, has been spared of this particular phenomenon. There's no significant populist movement in Spain to speak of. What do you think the Spanish case is so different? Well, I wouldn't say that in Spain, there are no populist movements. Yes, we have them. There are no xenophobic reactions. There are no anti-migrants reactions. But there are populisms that are not like that. And that's a good question. Why does Spain, first of all, Spain has not received the number of migrants that have received Italy. The Italians have been abandoned by the European Union. They have asked for help and we, the Spanish, the French, have looked at it from the other side. While we in Spain have not had this great concentration as we have in Italy or in Germany, there have been two years. Now it's starting. We have already almost 40,000 arrived this year. But there would be, deep down in Spanish society, a sense of solidarity that is shown every day in the support of migrants in the south, in Andalusia. Maybe because we were a people of migrants. Maybe because we needed a quantity of work. Maybe because our migration was mostly Latin American. And it's much easier to integrate someone who speaks the Golden language and who shares a cultural, religious tradition. It's much easier to integrate people from South America than people from the South of Africa. But in Spain, we don't have, let's raise our hands. This reaction against migrants, this reaction against foreigners, this idea that is developed in the east of Europe, to say we want to be a pure society, we refuse migration, we close ourselves, they say it clearly. We don't see migrants. And we have had the great failure to try to contribute the mandatory quota in the eastern countries. It didn't work. And normally it shouldn't work because we are violent, the deep desires of a society. I think that's the most important reason. I hope that we will continue to be a land of support and we will continue to have, with our neighbors from North Africa, Morocco, a policy of cooperation that helps us a lot. Thank you so much. The cooperation, obviously when it comes to migration, is very important one. Now, Calvin Kniesler, your government, particularly its junior partner, has been making statements that could be defined and interpreted as xenophobic and anti-refugee, anti-migrant issues. Now, the criticism that your government and particularly your junior partner has received in the international sphere is widely known. Would you say, when we talk about the future of Europe and Austria in particular, that there's no danger as far as Austria drifting to the right on this particular front. Do you think that the concerns that your government has been issuing and voicing vis-à-vis refugees and migrants are very much in place? Could you be a bit more specific? About your junior partner? No, about your criticism because I don't understand your question. Well, I mean, at this particular point, the xenophobic sentiments that your junior partner has been...  You're not aware? No. Well, I'm German speaking as well. No, but to be more specific, because you're putting here a very general statement, but I would be very keen to have, for instance, a kind of quotation or something just to be more specific so that I can respond in a specific way. Right, so the proposal, for instance, to have people of Jewish faith to register, is that something that in the news... No, sorry, that's really... Is that fake news? No, I'm not saying this is fake news, but this is something where you're not taking out something that was decided under a previous government in a specific province when it comes to distribution about ordering a certain type of food. And this has been something that was decided in a province by a previous government, so not by the current government. And we were not speaking about the national government, you were speaking about the regional government. Well, then let's put it very bluntly and clear with a very simple yes or no answer. You're saying the Austrian government is not drifting towards the right. Is that what you're saying? Your question was xenophobia. So please give me a very specific example about the national government, where anybody of us among the ministers, Chancellor Issa was the minister of foreign affairs, because I'm sitting here, I'm in charge of foreign affairs. Can you please give me a very specific example where, for instance, I have been pronouncing myself as xenophobic.  But on the government... Yeah, but give me a specific example, I can give you a specific answer. Okay, well, obviously I don't have the statements now from your junior partner. Yeah, but you're making now statements and I would like... I don't like this kind of, you know, just putting accusations into the room. So if you're specific, I'll give you a specific answer. Right, so then let's broaden it up, because obviously at this particular point you're not comfortable or... No, it's not about comfortable, it's about... I would like to join here. This conference is called World Policy Conference. I would like to be specific on global issues. Right. But of course the topic that we're discussing here are about some basic strategic European issues. Yes, so the more you become specific, the more I can be also... I don't like this kind of, you know, just general fluffy statements. Well, let's talk about the specific goals then of Austrian EU presidency. Let's talk about what Austria is in the midst of contributing to a sound, safe and prosperous EU. How about that? Yes, we're delighted to answer on that. Well, wonderful. We have come to an agreement. Yes, thank you very much. A specific question, a specific answer. We are now in the third, fourth months of EU presidency and what I as Minister of Foreign Affairs try in particular, and I've briefly referred to it when it comes to Southeast Europe. I've spoken about the vacuum that we have in Southeast Europe and where I think that... I mean, we feel close. Geography is the constant factor of history, as we know. We have a large diaspora of people with Serbian, Kosovo, Albanian, whatever origin, and we have an absence of perspective, in particular for the young population there, and my first visits all went to Sarajevo, to Belgrade, to Sargrep, because it's a region that we know about. It's important being surrounded by EU countries and not having the clear-cut perspective versus a European future. So I fully understand the sepsism and it was my... Deputy Goulanger also referred to the European elections in Paris in The Hague. Whenever you speak about enlargement in that part of the world, you, of course, have a sepsis. So I find that there is something that must be relativised. I will end with a big difference. Between the French and the Germans on Europe, it's the following. It's that in France, you won't find anyone who agrees with the European status quo. You will have either people who are against, who want to come back, or people who want to go further. In Germany, they are very happy with Europe as it is and if it doesn't work better, it's because people don't respect treaties as they are. So there is a difference in approach that is sensible and it explains a bit of the disadvantage to President Macron, because he came up with the idea of saying that France has dragged its feet. Germany has always wanted to go forward. Well, no, France has dragged its feet, but Germany has been satisfied since Maastricht, since the reunification of Europe as it is. But now, Europe is threatened and it will have to go forward. Thank you so much. Clearly unlike the current state of Europe, the technical issues here are somewhat going through a rough time, but I think we're back now. We're back. The time clock here has vanished, perhaps we can put that up as well so I can keep track, because I know we are running out of time. Nicolas, you're both based in Europe and the US. So you have a double perspective, if you will, on issues. Now, the current US president obviously has made no secret about it that perhaps he doesn't and issues and relations with Europe are not his number one priority. Is the relevance of the EU diminishing from where you're standing, when you're in DC and speaking to your American counterpart, is that what you're encountering that Europe is losing in terms of influence and relevance in that part of the world? I think there are different time cycles in terms of the fact that Europe is not central in how the US looks at the world. This has been a long standing trend. You remember when President Obama was nicknamed the Pacific presidency that he didn't have a background in Europe. He wasn't interested in Europe. So nothing very new here. Clearly the US sees the major security issues in the Middle East and in China. The European Union has been seen as low priority simply because it was not a hotspot of problems. That's not the Trump presidency. I think the question which is still unresolved like so many questions about the Trump presidency is whether this administration will be aggressively hostile to Europe because what President Trump has said that the European Union was set up to take advantage of the US and to put the US in a difficult position that is unprecedented. This is something that no previous President has said. So I wouldn't frame it in terms of relevancy relevance. I would frame it in terms of is the US going to be aggressive against European integration or is it just a flutter and some things that will go away? I think we don't know yet. I would say that Europe is actually more relevant in a way because it is more of a counter way to some impulses of the Trump administration certainly in trade or in climate change. It's less aligned with American administrations than it was in a previous certainly under the Obama administration. So that creates conflict and conflict creates relevance but we're not it's basically too early to tell. We're almost out of time but I do want to get a sense because when we talk about Europe and this particular panel has been no exception of course the needs for solidarity is always being stressed. If you look at the future and talking to your European counterparts such as Minister Borrell what is your sense? Since we're slowly winding down here how optimistic are you about the state of the European Union about the role of the European Union going forward and its relevance in the world affairs? Well what I have always been proud of as a European citizen is that it is built on treaties and just a few days ago 24th of October we had the signing 370 years ago of the Treaty of Westphalia which was in my assessment the beginning of modernity in Europe because it was the beginning of the territorial state, it was the beginning of the equality of the sovereigns and also of international law so everything we have seen in terms of evolving also of multilateralism but Groscius Richelieu an idealist and a realist the two of them who had been drafting to a certain extent the Treaty of Westphalia and later much later that for me is what Europe is about normative basis and credibility and here I think in order to remain credible in particular with regard to China it's all about are we complying with our own normative obligations and this leads to what has been stated also when it comes to currency affairs this has this in my opinion right now in foreign affairs is a lot about the Iran nuclear disarmament Treaty the JCPOA a phrase that all of us have studied once upon a time when going into international relations we just have to be preserved the trust in the end is all about the trust in signatures that we have and I think this is what Europe has always been standing for so in order to remain credible to be considered a player we have to fulfill our own obligations on a normative level and here going far beyond solidarity because solidarity is a nice catch word but you have to enshrine it into norms and I would like to see I repeat myself a Europe moving out of this mentality of bean counting the crema saline that we have, the buddhimprox that we have here and there and going more into understanding the bigger geopolitical challenges and this I miss on many levels and for that it's a level of humanistic education that sometimes you have backbone and a certain degree of courage and self-confidence so that's how I understand my work as in my current position as EU chair from time to time it's necessary to call a spade a spade courage for rather the desire for a more courageous and self-confident Europe going forward we're going to end this panel the way we started Minister Borrell I want to give you the opportunity to wrap up this particular session with the very same question of course namely looking forward about the future of the European Union the union that your country has been a part of for many decades you also somebody in your role you travel all over the world you talk to people what is the international assessment of Europe do we still have the means do we still have the influence to be a relevant player in world affairs not as much as needed you know before the EU crisis when I was traveling by South America people asked me you are a success story tell us how we should do in order to repeat your integration process it was before the crisis we were economically booming a lot of migrants and being something that people were looking at us as something to be followed to be imitated then the crisis came and I think we have lost 10 years for many European countries and today we don't make the waves in front of the big big powers that are emerging I think the future of Europe passes through a bigger integration stronger integration but not all of the member states are ready to do so many of them they are not willing not just United Kingdom who has living who is living other countries don't want to integrate better Germany is at their optimum it's in a situation where it's very good the situation he has why should Germany change but if you want to have a role in the world if you want to influence the global world then even Germany alone is too small we have to integrate better and more but knowing realistically that this is not going there is not the will for doing that in many European countries so the key word for me is differentiated integration around the Eurozone to track Europe we are ready to track Europe some member states share currency others don't share some member states have abolished their borders others they are very much stick to their borders they want to close them two of the most important characteristics of a state the currency and the border some of us we are sharing it and others we refuse to share the integration is there it's nothing new I'm trying to end on a hopeful and optimistic note here but I understand and appreciate your honesty about the concerns that you have vis-à-vis Europe particularly with as you've said and I quote you some member states are not ready willing to move this union along now ladies and gentlemen basic European strategic issues obviously this is a topic that we could have gone on for the next two three hours a topic that will be with us for a very long time because I think that much has become clear throughout the very passionate and eloquent statements here Europe will have a place and will have a role to play in World Affairs whether I would like to or not the question is of course in what scope size and capacity ladies and gentlemen that's that for the Michael Lothia, Nicola Sferron and John Louis Boulange please join me in thanking them thank you so much