绰od a gweld faptwil y maen. Gwfryddon mewn fawr a inspect estabaaethau yn drafodaeth iawn a chael summoneol waith iawn iawn eu gwneud i maen yn tymeteurol yn sylwyr mewn bod dullacholol correcting invitellol hynd yn iawn. Llyr bulwcharu'r iawn, fy dryddon, i gyflym yn iawn i chi weld—y nîr Llyfr anzenet. Mae gwneud hŷdd o gwasanaethau ar ddigon pobl yn y rai Pag, ten i eid showcase. Mae gwneud lle illaeth aral ffas那个llach安 rebellion – Andy Hubbell, chairman of the British Pyrotechnics Association and Norman Donald, owner of NGE fireworks displays, who is joining us remotely on BlueJeans. So, very good morning to you all and we appreciate the time that you're taking to join us this morning. So we'll now move directly to questions and if I may I'd like to open up just with a general question and I'll maybe come to Fraser yourself first and then I'll bring in Andy. And it's really just to ask you for a broad comment on your own sort of experience to date from your respective organisations perspectives of dealing with and supplying fireworks and pyrotechnic articles, as I say, just within the context of your own organisation. So, Fraser, I'll come to you first. Yes, okay. I've got a prepared statement which will cover the aspects that you've asked for. Thank you, convener, committee members for the opportunity to speak with you today. As you know, my name is Fraser Stevenson, vice chairman of the British Fireworks Association. The British Fireworks Association members import over 90 per cent of the legitimate fireworks placed on the market in the UK. The BFA, which is the abbreviation for the British Fireworks Association, sits on various groups including the SEN committee, which is a technical committee that covers the European standards and technical standards for fireworks. So we have representation on that. We also have representation on the firework enforcement liaison group, which is an organisation that includes enforcement authorities, HSE, trading standards and also has government representation from the likes OPSS and BASE. We also have regular meetings with BASE and OPSS in Westminster. In terms of experience, I've worked in the industry for over 15 years. I've given evidence in Westminster during the 2019 firework inquiry. I was also in the Scottish Firework working group. I've also been an expert witness for various police authorities in prosecutions. I'm also the lead contact for the UK consumer industry with the European firework industry. Before commenting on the bill, it's worth looking back at the 90s. In the 90s, the number of people admitted to hospital with firework-related injuries was averaging 1,200 a year in the UK. Its peak was over 1,500 but it was averaging 1,200 a year in the UK and deaths were not uncommon. At time, fireworks such as bangers, fireworks of erratic flight, display shells, bottle rockets etc. were available to the public. I would also add that quite a lot of those fireworks are still available and perfectly legal in Europe but they were prohibited in the UK because the UK took a step change then. After consultation with the industry, detailed analysis of the types and causes of injuries, the industry proposed a voluntary ban in the UK on the products that I've mentioned, which was subsequently enshrined in legislation. The DTI, as it was then, also pushed a massive safety and awareness campaign, promoting the safe, considerate and responsible use of fireworks. This was also supported with further legislative change supported by the industry to close out some areas of concern such as age limitations, possession, etc. The result today is that we have an accident rate that is less than one tenth of what it was in the 90s and no deaths in over 20 years. Unfortunately, in 2005 it was decided that a level of support for a co-ordinated firework safety campaign should be reduced, something the industry feels was not the correct decision. We are now 17 years from that point, 17 years since a co-ordinated campaign highlighting the dangers and misuse of fireworks was stopped. However, thankfully, in the past two years working with the industry, OPSS and Bays have restarted a co-ordinated messaging approach primarily via social media. The messaging highlights the importance of the safe, considerate and responsible use of fireworks, the importance of reading safety instructions, the importance of buying from licensed authorised resellers and the importance of being considerate to those who may not enjoy fireworks as much. That messaging is working. Why do we say that? In the past two years with Covid restrictions, the number of organised events has dramatically reduced to the point of almost zero. The result, far more consumer fireworks have been sold with some retailers reporting an increase of as much as 700 per cent. Yet we have not seen a massive spike in accidents nor have we seen a massive spike in the misuse of fireworks. That would suggest that, in the words of the Minister for Community Safety, there are a number of people, a small number of people that are using fireworks inappropriately. Why then does the bill appear to target the majority of consumers who are using fireworks in an appropriate way? Also in 2019, the industry recommended that a single point of contact should be created co-ordinating safety messaging, market surveillance and intelligence sharing between industry, trade and standards, fire service and police. The recommendations were made to the firework working group in Scotland, the minister in Scotland and to MPs at the Westminster inquiry. OPSS have followed this recommendation in England. The Scottish Government have not. Instead we find that the industry is excluded from much of the activity in Scotland. The BFA were encouraged to speak with Police Scotland about Operation Moonbeam, which we did, and were not asked to be involved any further, at least not until raising this point with the minister during a meeting in March of this year. We spoke with Scottish Fire and Rescue and even advised them that their safety leaflet was wrong and was encouraging consumers to purchase fireworks which had been made illegal in 2017. Again we were not asked to be involved further. Finally we were asked by the Scottish Government to get involved with the SSPCA fire safety campaign in 2021 after we highlighted errors in their 2020 campaign. However at the first meeting a member of the SSPCA stated that the industry involvement in the safety campaign would make it very difficult for the SSPCA. The industry has repeatedly raised concerns regarding the unintended consequences of greater restrictions on the sale and use of consumer fireworks. We raised these concerns during the working group meeting. We raised these concerns directly with the minister. Indeed others have voiced concern, notably the health and safety executive explosives inspectorate who wrote to the Scottish Government in November 2021 stating, our view is that where possible having two legal regimes containing different limitations for the same thing should be avoided. We have heard numerous references to the need for more tools in the toolbox. The BFA feels that the existing set of tools should be fully utilised before consideration is given to introducing additional legislation. The misuse of fireworks carries a maximum fine in Scotland of £5,000 in six months in prison. To the best of our knowledge the largest fine we can find being handed down in Scotland is £150 to a 19-year-old who admitted using fireworks against two police officers in 2019. What message does that send to those who would misuse fireworks? It certainly doesn't appear to be one of a deterrent. Between 2019 and 2021 the Scottish Government states that there were 53 misuse of fireworks charges reported to COPFS. How many of those were prosecuted to the full extent of the law? We have asked this question and have yet to receive an answer. The misuse of fireworks includes discharging in a public space or firing into a public space. It also includes using fireworks and pyrotechnics as weapons, supplying age-restrictive fireworks and pyrotechnics to anyone under the age of 18, being in possession of an age-restrictive fireworks or pyrotechnics in a public space while under the age of 18. The powers are extensive and have been developed over decades and minimise the risk of unintended consequences. Sadly, the same cannot be said for this bill. In closing, the 2019 Westminster inquiry, which heard evidence in public from a wide range of stakeholders, including police, trading standards and the fire service, concluded that greater restrictions and controls on the sale of use of fireworks would not be appropriate due to the real risk of creating a black market and making matters worse, not better. Is it being suggested that things will be different in Scotland? The BFA feels that this bill will be the biggest contributor to the creation of a black market. It does nothing to address the issue of misuse, instead it specifically targets law abiding Scots, placing barriers to purchasing fireworks from authorised retailers and encouraging consumers to look elsewhere. To look to the markets in some European countries where fireworks we banned in the 90s are still perfectly illegal, the bill proposes the creation of fireworks free zones when it is already an offence to discharge fireworks in a public space and has been since 1875. The bill will hand over the demand for fireworks in Scotland from licensory retailers to organised crime. It will create more work for enforcement, not less. It will not improve safety. It will result in more injuries, not less. It will lead to deaths. Finally, the industry and the Scottish Government have the same objective to promote the safe, considerate and responsible use of fireworks to reduce the misuse. The BFA's 10-point plan presented to the Scottish Government in 2020 proposed ways in which that can be achieved whilst minimising the risk of unintended consequences. Sadly, the Scottish Government has chosen a different, more dangerous route. I apologise for the length of time, but I think that that covers a lot. Thank you very much, Shem Fraser. I'll just move straight on to Andy. Then I'll bring in Norman after that. Andy. Thank you very much, convener. The British Pirate Technists Association is the trade association that represents the professional firework display industry in the United Kingdom. If you think of any of the fantastic displays that are held in Scotland, whether it's the really big events or just down to small local community gallers or whisky festivals, the chances are that those have been fired by one of our members. The British Pirate Technists Association focuses on skills and competence. It has a training scheme that is accredited by City and Guilds and has various different levels and audit that goes out of our members and has minimum requirements for a company to become a member. The codes of conduct through which companies must operate, the disciplinary processes where companies are found to be in breach. We are very much aligned with the firework display industry. So, why am I here today? It would be very easy for us to sit back and say that a lot of the proposed bill focuses on retail and that it's saying go to an organised display and that's something that's safer. But through all of our experience and all of our knowledge of fireworks, we are very concerned about the black market that will be created by the proposals and what that black market will mean for Scotland and also for the United Kingdom in a larger way. We are really worried about the way that these proposals could take the firework retail market underground and then the consequences of that are very serious. Now, just to give you a little bit about my background, I've been working in firework since the 90s. In the start, I worked on the DTI's firework safety campaign and one of the things that you might have seen is, you know, Henry holding a sparkler or something like that. I was involved there and those are the times when fireworks injuries were really high and I saw the reaction that was taken and also I saw the reaction that was taken by industry to take steps to remove the fireworks that were the tools of hooligans and antisocial behaviour after circulation. The industry doing it first to later be backed up by legislation but the industry did that voluntarily and I have seen the long working relationship that has carried on over the years and that occupies a lot of my time at the moment through communications with different departments but very little from Scotland, unfortunately. A bit about me, I spent 13 years as a special constable and during that time I encountered, I understand what public order is, I understand what antisocial behaviour is, I understand the impact that that can have on society but I was also there in the 90s and remember what things used to be like. I can remember what the status quo was and I've helped you a little bit with that by sharing a video that you can have a look at later. Just to try and put you back to what things were when fireworks that are now banned were available in the United Kingdom quite legitimately. We support high standards, we support legislation, developing legislation, we've worked on many pieces of legislation but never before have I felt so passionately the mistake is being made and that is why we are here to speak to you and speak to the minister. The committee explained what has been going on and our thoughts on that. But ultimately we want a safe Scotland and we want safe communities as well and we're very happy to work with the Scottish Government to achieve that. Thank you very much indeed. I'll just move straight on to and I'll bring in Norman Donald. I hope that you can hear us okay. Over to you. Good morning. My name is Norman Donald. I'm the owner of NGA fireworks based in Aberdeen. We have a licence shop that we sell, retail fireworks all year round to the public and we also carry out professional fireworks display to the public using all types of events. First of all I'd like to say that I think that this bill is completely backward. I agree with Andy and Fraser and our biggest concern is the black market and the danger that we're going to put the Scottish public in. We can't be put in the public in danger. If we create a black market we are definitely going to put the public in danger. Engines are going to be vast and as Fraser said it probably will lead to deaths. As a family business if this bill goes ahead as I said I sell fireworks all year round to be able to close down. If you close my shop down you're going to take away a specialist shop a specialist shop. When a member of the public comes in to buy fireworks from us we are asking questions have you bought fireworks before? We are going through the safe structure with them. We are pointing them in the right directions of what fireworks they can use which is appropriate for the area. We are reminding them of the laws. We are reminding them to be courteous. If we are not there we won't be there to do that so you are going to take our knowledge away from the public and that's not good for the public safety either. If we go down this route and we introduce a licensing scheme as well that is definitely going to push things under. I've had lengthy conversations with Danny from Diamond Fireworks in Northern Ireland about the licensing scheme and he'll tell you it doesn't work. All it does is encourage people to buy fireworks elsewhere. Also if we introduce a fee to get a licence then not everyone can afford a fee. We have some families that come into our shop they spend maybe £30 on a small selection box because that's a treat once a year for them their family, their children. If you introduce a fee say £30, £50 it could be this out of their reach. There's no equality there whatsoever. It's going to give a class divide. You're going to punish people with low incomes which isn't fair. The minister has suggested that more people would go to professional firework. They might do it if they're within their shop. There's only so many professional firework companies in Scotland and there's only so many firework displays we can do. In reality that isn't going to happen. There isn't going to be more and more professional firework displays. There's only a certain amount of times a year that's happened in November Christmas lights which are on in Hogmanay. We have to maybe re-look at this bill from start to finish and look at the things that we're doing wrong because as I said at the start this bill is backward. It's not looking forward as Scotland and Scotland should be looking forward as a nation not going backwards. Thank you. Thank you very much Norman. Your picture at the centre is just coming in going a little bit but we'll hang on in there and hopefully we'll be able to keep your screen on. We've got quite a number of questions that we would like to ask that members would like to ask so I'll ask for succinct questions and answers if I may and I'm going to hand over to Pauline McNeill and then I'll bring in Rona Mackay. Thank you very much. Good morning. Thanks for your evidence. I found it very powerful but I do have a number of questions but I'll confine these questions to trying to establish what you think the extent of the problem of antisocial behaviour. I think maybe we're all agreed that the problem we're trying to solve is where they are misused and I suppose I want to draw attention to and in your submission you talk about section 80 of the 1875 explosive act and essentially Pollock Shields which you have an interest in because I'm a Glasgow member and I've spoken to the representatives in Pollock Shields where it is clearly a massive nuisance not just in November but in other times of the year. That no action had been taken and I've been trying to establish this with the Crown Office I've been unable to yet. So where do you get your evidence from that you're saying that no action was taken if you could speak to that, that would be really helpful. Is that directed to Andy or must I say? I think Andy assures the submission of the British Violence Association. So Fraser, sorry. We asked the same question about the actions being taken. I was on a telephone it was a radio call with I think Danny from Pollock Shields and Danny said himself there was no action taken. And as far as we're aware there was no prosecution taken. Everything that happened there in Pollock Shields the discharge of fireworks in the public space handing fireworks out at the back of the van to miners etc. They were all criminal offences, level 5 fines, £5,000, six months in prison. No action was taken. So is your view that it's not been taken safe enough by the police or the Crown Office? It's not been taken seriously. There's one occasion I was asked to give evidence by, I was interviewed by police officers in Edinburgh who asked me to give them evidence about an attack that happened upon them. They showed me some product to ask if that product could cause an injury so I was there helping the police and I said yes absolutely police officers said could that have killed us and I said yes if that had hit you that could have killed you and he said good because we have been told it's not really a good crime and we don't need to prosecute it and that came from the PF. Thank you Just finally just on that point I'm trying to get my head round the whole concept of the legal fireworks and illegal fireworks so can you tell the police the difference the forensically you could tell whether a fireworks was the end of the day I suppose doesn't really matter if it was often a public place Absolutely At a working group meeting there was information or there was a presentation by NHS Scotland and we highlighted that what was presented was consistent with an injury sustained by a banger which has been illegal in over 20 years that information was discarded and that information also came from Tom Smith who is a recognised industry expert and he concluded the same the injury that was presented to the working group was consistent with the injury sustained from a banger which was an illegal product banned over 20 years ago in the UK and that's what they are getting in the Republic of Ireland I shared a video with the committee members I don't know if they saw it but in the Republic of Ireland they are 15 years on into a fireworks ban a total ban and they are still doing education in schools teaching them about the dangers of bangers which is product that was banned in the UK over 20 years ago we do not see a lot of bangers on the market they do appear two years ago there was someone in Sheffield selling 4,500 bangers online and that was reported to the police and that came through the industry there is the industry reporting to the police this is happening but this is where OPSS have now become involved and OPSS have set up a direct communication with the industry and said if you hear anything contact us directly and immediately and OPSS is the office for product safety and standards and they take that information and they disseminate that information they will send that to trading standards they will send that to the police so this is what we try to say during the working group meetings you need to have a structured organised reporting method rather than me phoning Govan police station and saying I heard a guy selling fireworks out the back of a well who are you well I'm Fraser Stevenson from the BFA never heard of the BFA so we need to move away from that we need to get to a situation where we can communicate to a central point so fortunately we don't see those types of products on the market but they do in the Republic of Ireland thank you did you want to add Andy yeah it was just to help the committee with what a black market or illegal fireworks might look like what we're talking about because there are lots of different examples so the one that Fraser's been talking about are the ones that were banned so those are bangers air bombs some screamer rockets fireworks of erratic flight aerial shells a banger all it does is go bang we used to be able to buy those 20 years ago for two or three pounds for a box of ten and they would cause a real nuisance out in the street an air bomb it shoots a projectile up into the sky and all it does is make a bang screamer rockets maybe you can remember 20 years ago although if it wasn't a bang it was a whistle and that was the situation aerial shells they were withdrawn through emergency legislation because two people died from those now those fireworks all of those are still available in member nations of the European Union and quite legal I've sent you a piece of footage about with examples that I filmed largely in Valencia last week where bangers and air bombs and these kinds of rockets are all legal and everything you see there is perfectly legitimate they have a fireworks festival like we have all perfectly legal but not allowed in this country what else might it look like it might look like fireworks that are labelled in a different language so that you can't understand the safety instructions it might be fireworks that are not labelled at all so they don't have any information on them they might be fireworks that are stored in an unlicensed premises so at the moment retailers have a licence that they obtain through trading standards and trading standards knows where the fireworks are yes they're a white van man we've heard about that but at the moment trading standards have a grip on where all these products are as soon as you remove that you take that market underground it was a horror of one of the fire officers to be involved in an incident where unexpected fireworks were located as soon as you take licensing away and people start just storing these products you will encounter that all along so it's a whole range of different things that combines the black market but certainly those fireworks that Fraser talks about that will take your hand off and take your finger off we don't have them at the moment you know not as easy as it is with a banger if you hold it I'll hand straight on to Rona Mackay and then I'll bring in Russell Finlay Rona, thank you convener good morning panel we'll be aware that the committee has heard compelling evidence from the police and fire service that legislation is required there was a public consultation last year 94% of people wanted more control over the sale of fireworks there was a wide support for a ban can I ask you so far and reading through your submissions you're concentrating on misuse and accidents that happen with fireworks can I put to you that people have other problems with fireworks such as animal distress people with autism neurodiversity that is just a consequence of fireworks going off and the noise that they make so if you reading through your submissions you clearly don't want nothing done, no legislation so how would you address those problems if the public very much seemed to want something done because certainly someone said that they were going off a new year on fireworks night in my experience most people's experience were going off a lot more than that so I wonder if you could come up with any kind of proposal to show that you understand the frankly nuisance that the public are finding it's a difficult question to answer if I can break it down into different sections one section for example in respect to the noise complaints we've asked for information about noise complaints and I've got some statistics here we asked the city of Edinburgh under a freedom of information request for their noise complaint breakdown and they gave us figures for the period 2013 to 2018 they received a total of 40,385 noise complaints of those noise complaints 44 related to fireworks the SSPCA on average and this is their own information the SSPCA on average received 123,578 calls a year of those on average around 20 related to fireworks can I just intervene there I'm a dog owner I have never complained it's causing my animals so not everybody complains so I understand you're using those figures but they're not really representative of how the public are experiencing it but these are the figures that we've asked for these are the figures that we've asked to say okay how can we address this how can we help tackle this how can we help look at mitigation on this and when we ask the people in power if you like for the information to give us to see where we can help that's the figures we're getting back so there is concern we don't like to see the misuse of fireworks it's not a good thing sorry to interrupt again it's not necessarily misuse it's just the use of fireworks they're not being misused again it comes back to something that was discussed in the Westminster inquiry if we try and reduce the overall use of fireworks the consequences of that are we generate a black market for it and if we then start going down the black market fireworks we then lose control of everything we lose control of license storage we lose control of product testing and product safety etc and ultimately we doubt very much it would resolve the problem because as it stands just now we're working through an organised structure with license retailers there's about 650 license retailers in Scotland so these are retailers who are known to license and authorities and these are retailers that we can communicate information to we can disseminate information to we can communicate to members of the public about the safe, considerate and responsible use of fireworks telling your neighbours etc etc but when we speak to people who are members of the public I want fireworks banned because they're going off at 2 o'clock in the morning and disturbed me that 2 o'clock in the morning fireworks is an illegal use of a fireworks and restricting the legitimate use of fireworks won't solve that problem it just simply won't it's an education thing to the public it's making the public aware if you're going to use fireworks tell your neighbour it's one of our safety campaign it's one of our 10 point the fireworks safety code that we promote which is tell your neighbours if you're going to be doing fireworks so that they can make or take appropriate measures to go somewhere else or go a drive for 10 minutes or something like that but how to tackle people setting off fireworks in the street or at 2 o'clock in the morning it's very difficult it's very difficult I agree with what Fraser is saying I think better education is one way that we need to look at and being a better neighbour and sharing that information he's absolutely right the alternative is the problem is the problem here the alternative is a lot louder an awful lot louder an awful lot more and social behaviour an awful lot more of a problem as an association our members are very aware of noise issues we promote being a good neighbour informing all of the properties around which might be farms or horse owners and we also very much our members work on on lower noise displays it's not possible to have a silent fireworks all fireworks will make some noise through their processes but it is possible to have a fireworks display where for example a stables can be located almost next door and the horses actually end up watching the fireworks display and it is a certain noise level where it doesn't cause them a disturbance I think most of us in the room will be pet owners or have been pet owners and very much support that I think anything that educates people and gets people on board with fireworks but at the same time recognises the huge appeal that they still have and also recognises the dangers if we end up with a black market I think my colleague is going to have further questions on the noise levels in silent fireworks so I won't pursue that Mr Donald would you like to comment? I understand a family of pet owners some understand that dogs can be spooked all animals can be spooked like ourselves can be spooked by some noises we do promote the sale of low noise fireworks in our shop and we also do a lot of low noise displays for the public as well as Andy says there is not such a thing as a silent fireworks but the industry is fully animals and people can be spooked and as Fraser said it's all about being courteous you have to look at your neighbours though it's not a difficult thing to do dog owners have to there is ways you can train your dog to desensitise your dog not just from fire work from all sudden we are actually working with a local dog trainer at the moment and we are actually looking to get 20 dogs in and we are looking to train them up and desensitise them looking to do firework display for dogs so we are trying to work together with the community working together in education the way forward okay thanks thanks very much we've just taken his audio off just now sorry his screen off just so we can try to get better audio feed so he's still with us hopefully you know Russell thank you in your opening comments you made reference to some figures I didn't quite catch it was to do with the number of cases reported to the Crown Office by the police do you have that number to hand? it's part of the financial memorandum that we took it from let me see if I can get to it it's quite near the end between 2019 and 2021 it says there was 53 misuse of firework charges reported so that was presumably cases reported by Police Scotland to the Crown Office but we don't know what the we've asked the question of the Scottish Government and we said what was the result of those 53 reports how many prosecutions were there how many convictions what fines were handed down etc anecdotally the most strong outcome if you like was the one that you referenced with the 19-year-old from what we understand the person confessed he was charged, confessed and sentenced to £150 fine in his absence one thing that surprised me coming to this fresh was that it's not illegal to give fireworks to under 18s over 18 is that the case? no there's a bit of misconception on that the situation with the proxy aspect of the bill is something that the industry supports because it basically clarifies something that is already illegal it's an offence within I think the pyrotechnics directive or one of the firework regulations to supply fireworks to anyone under the age of 18 age-restricted fireworks and it is in legislation and has been in legislation for a while but it's not immediately obvious that it is in legislation but I can assure you it is and we've had that discussion with trading standards in the past supply you mean sell or give? absolutely and that as a terminology the legislation is quite specific that supply is to hand over whether for a reward or a prize or anything else or for money it is to hand over I have to go back and work out who told us that but it does seem to be at odds with what some of the authorities seem to think no absolutely I can assure you it's in the legislation when it came up we spoke to the Scottish Government and we said okay it's probably not a bad thing and you might think sorry, sorry convener but you might think that we're objecting to just everything and the reason we're not objecting to the proxy is it's already there so the unintended consequences of that action we can't foresee any unintended consequences cos it's already a legislation and it's in the fire work regulations okay thank you now you quoted some words the minister said in your statement as well about this is a small number of people which goes back to your central point that this should be about enforcement and education rather than legislation do you feel as an industry or industry representatives that you've got an open door you're being listened to by the Government or is it a bit of an exercise in consultation inverted commas speaking frankly it's isolated voices in a room full of noise that is pretty much how we feel and I can tell you comments when I've raised concerns about different pieces of legislation for example the licensing and we've said well that will just encourage people to go and source product from unlicensed or unauthorised and the comment came back was law, Biden, Scots won't do that and my response was well in fairness law, Biden, Scots aren't really the problem here can you tell me who said that it was during one of the working group meetings right okay it was during I mean I would say that I think it was Jamie Greene I mentioned in one of the previous discussions this is a sledgehammer to crack a nut but we would go further it's a sledgehammer to crack the wrong nut sorry apologies apologies do you feel you're being listened to no I have sat through I've been involved in the process for a year and a half or so joined working groups when I've been on holiday in other countries tried to compete to be involved fully and I have to say I felt very sorry for Fraser on a number of occasions and the reason is is that the make up of the working group was a whole load of people who desire change and regardless of how that came about change was their goal and the results that they were referring to in surveys were their mandate to to do that every time that Fraser contributed it was correcting correcting a fact that had been put forward in part of the the working group I say every time that's what it felt like rather than bringing to the table and discussing alternatives and looking at different potential issues or encouraging further engagement with the government as I've seen many times over the last two decades rather than do that there were a whole load of people who wanted a chief change and everything that was proposed this man was having to say we'll know that's not the case and putting out a really large amount of facts to contribute to the process we're already hearing a few of his numbers, Fraser is very good at this so yeah I hear you, thank you thanks very much we're going to move on to some questions around the licensing scheme proposals can I ask just for as succinct answers as you can offer we've got quite a lot of interesting questions to get through and I'm going to bring in Pauline again and then I'll bring in Rona Mackay thank you very much I think you've responded to a lot of the questions around the licenses I'm not going to go over that I just have one remaining question which is that a significant number of respondents to the Scottish Government consultation were in favour of some kind of licensing scheme I just wondered if you had any of you then why the general public and there was quite a significant number of responses to the Government I mean I guess it could be because they don't feel current law has been enforced or and I think Rona Mackay's point is really important as well that isn't just the antisocial behaviour in most communities noise after a certain time is a disturbance because clearly with the law this may be what's influencing people but what is your view on that? our view on it is and we've made this recommendation to OPSS if there was a voluntary way in which for example technologies developed to such an extent we could put a QR code on every firewall that's distributed in the UK and consumers could scan that QR code and they could watch instructional videos they could watch information about what is the current legislation what is the situation we consider at use where should you use fireworks where should you not use fireworks how should you use that individual fireworks but very much make that a voluntary scheme and put that on every single product that people could look at it but when you take that step into licensing and you know we've heard previous evidence from people saying about oh the Northern Ireland introduced a licensing scheme and if you look at the figures that are submitted Northern Ireland is a population of just under 1.9 million people on average they issue 515 licences a year for 1.89 million people now if you prorata that for Scotland we would be issuing 1500 licences we estimate 250,000 people a year by fireworks in Scotland where are the other 248,500 people going to go to by fireworks that's our concern if you took the licensing philosophy and implied it to alcohol and said that before you could buy alcohol you had to sit an online course to find out about the disruption and the harm that alcohol can cause etc etc and you need to pay £50 to do that or you can go to the is that what you're really saying when you used the word law abiding Scots so you're really saying that the law abiding Scots might not be so law abiding if they have to apply for a licence it's a risk absolutely it's a risk if law abiding Scots are asked to pay £50 and sit an online course they've basically got three choices then choice one is they do it choice two is they don't decide to buy fireworks anymore and they stop doing it or choice three is some guy approaches a Minnapub or out the back of a white van and says here I can get you fireworks and you don't need the £50 fee thank you thank you very much Rona I'll just come briefly just sort of on the licensing and legislation point Fraser your submission at the end of interesting the comment you made further legislation is not required but of course as an industry we would say that wouldn't we I thought that was interesting because that might be the perception of people who are thinking well it is an industry and this is your job would you ever support a scheme where licences were available for organised displays only and that the public should not be able to to buy them individually again that is effectively a ban well it's not a ban on fireworks displays yes but it's a ban which is what happens in the Republic of Ireland at the moment and the consequences of that is horrendous injuries and it's kids so just to clarify you don't want anything done you don't think any changes are necessary at all no we don't say that what we said is we wrote to the Scottish Government on this and it was one of the points in particular to do with the pyrotechnics aspect to the bill and we wrote to the Scottish Government and said look could you organise a meeting with Police Scotland to discuss with Police Scotland what their primary concerns are and if there is a way in which the industry can help with that are there any common suggestions that we could suggest some tweaks to the existing legislation etc we received no response so what we feel is sorry to really answer your question we don't think it's appropriate to be looking at more legislation when the existing legislation is not being fully enforced that's our biggest concern is Mr Donald still with us Mr Donald are you able to respond if you want yeah of course first of all first of all you've talked about consultation unfortunately I don't think that the figures of that should be looked at at all as in what the Scottish public think cos this consultation was and I know for a fact that a lot of the consultation especially as a anti-firework brigade in England they shared this on their facebook page 20,000 followers and published their members to answer the consultation in Scotland because they were hoping for a change and that would maybe progress to a change in England so the consultation itself is flawed can I interrupt you what evidence have you got for saying that the evidence I asked when I was on several about this was this out with Scotland and the answer was yes I asked if anyone in the world could answer this but this doesn't represent Scotland and the answer was that the civil servant said that this is the way that the S&P carried out the consultations all the time I was unaware the minister was actually in Parliament and she was reading out the figures she said that the percentage of the Scottish public are looking for a fundamental change in the way fireworks are sold in Scotland and it's true because the figures have come from worldwide if you look on the anti-firework brigade's facebook fab you'll see that they shared this and they have also shared the one that you yourself asked for just last month for the members to answer this so the figures that we're getting so we can't rely on what the consultation you know so you don't believe in consulting the public of course I believe in consulting the public but the Scottish public not England, Wales, Ireland the rest of the world should be looking after Scotland why should people in England decide on what legislation should be in Scotland I think you're giving your opinion there Mr Donald I don't think that's correct we'll leave it at that ok thank you in respect of licencing potentially creating a black market or a bigger black market and using Northern Ireland as an example of what can potentially happen do you have anything any insight from either colleagues or perhaps trading standards in Northern Ireland about the size and extent of the black market that's been created it's a really difficult question to answer because how do you know the size of something that's illegal how is it recorded, how is it detailed what I can say is that one of the concerns in the Republic of Ireland is they feel their black market is coming a lot from Northern Ireland so there you've got geographically two countries joined together both with completely different legal regimes on the sell and use of fireworks and you've got this transfer of product from one area to the other area and that kind of falls in line with the comment I made from HSE which is where they would caution against having two different legal regimes for the same product in the same area so you can read it that England becomes the equivalent of Northern Ireland and Scotland or the Republic of Ireland and we have cross border and I know that was a question raised to one of the police officer and it's one of the questions we've asked what is the plan here is the plan to stop drivers coming across the M74 and the A1 and saying show me inside your car so I can see if you've got a legal fireworks but yeah I do have to say in the UK certainly it's a small percentage of the black market but Republic of Ireland it's huge and it is certainly bigger in Northern Ireland and we know this from colleagues in Northern Ireland thank you thanks very much any other you want to come in on light on licensing okay thanks very much in that case we'll move on to some questions around the restrictions on use and supply of fireworks and I'll bring in collect Stevenson to begin with and then I'll bring in Fulton MacGregor thanks and good morning to the panel so obviously in regards to the restrictions the bill introduces various restrictions on the days and times when fireworks can actually be sold and used and it was really just to seek your views on that proposal in terms of the actual restrictions and you know do you think it strikes the right balance in terms of people actually being able to enjoy fireworks and appropriate time in various different celebrations and arguably reducing the actual misuse of fireworks as well right I don't know if Andy's got I'm gone for this one again it comes back to this thing where greater restrictions and controls the risk presented from that through things like consumer stockpiling and I know that's a concern that was raised I think from the Scottish Police Superintendent in their response to the committee they stated that they had concerns over stockpiling I also believe that COSLA mentioned concerns over stockpiling in their submission Fife Council mentioned concerns over stockpiling in their submission and the Scottish Community Safety Network also mentioned concerns about stockpiling in their submission and that this is the problem if you start restricting then people will say well I've got a birthday in May so what I'll do is I'll buy those fireworks in November or December and then I'll keep them in the house until May so you've got a question about the sourcing of the product and there will be people that decide to stockpile or there may be people who decide to stockpile for reselling can I comment on that see in terms of the actual production now I don't know how to actually make a fireworks or what's involved in it but is there any way that there could be a time a date on that and the limit is there nothing that you could do? To explain the overall process of fireworks about 95% of the world's consumer fireworks are made in China and fireworks production has got a nine month lead time so you're ordering in January for stuff that you're expecting in August or September but even putting there are certain things that we have to put dates on from a point of view of a production date but that's more to do with the pyrotechnics directive being able to identify whether a product was sold in November or December or I mean it would be incredibly difficult to track and trace something like that once it gets into the consumer market I don't know if that answers your question No, I'm just wondering what options are there in terms of restrictions and not stockpiling them I don't know that, Andy if you want to come in on that in terms of that balancing Absolutely, you were saying about what does what is the impact and what are the restrictions on restricting the days that fireworks happen clearly it impacts on people's freedoms that you are telling them you can only celebrate with fireworks on these days of the year so if you have a wedding or you have a birthday party or your company has a special celebration or a gala prom for a school or whatever then you are limiting and saying that no longer can you do those unless you use a professional fireworks display company and this has been one thing that's in my submission clearly that that does disadvantaged low income households because low income households are not likely to be able to afford the services that our members can provide which is an organised professional fireworks display whereas if they were to go to a firework shop in Scotland and buy a small selection of fireworks to celebrate a wedding then that would be affordable so those are the consequences of restricting when you can do it I think that you are creating an unbalanced status quo okay thank you and I suppose sorry is it Norman is he still online with us and really Norman if you could even give me some indication if there would be an impact on retailers in terms of the restrictions as well to respond to that but have you heard that question if you'd like it repeated again okay right it looks like we've lost him so want to move on yeah well I don't know if razor or Andy can comment in terms of the retail aspect of it and if they have got any evidence that would suggest that restricting them would have a huge impact on more sales online and through the black market as well I believe as part of the evidence I think as part of the consultation of the bill there was identified that there was about 12 all-year licensed retailers in Scotland and obviously that would just kill them but it wouldn't solve the problem this is what we keep coming back to so rather than Scots being able to go to a local licensed retailer what would they do they would go online and buy them from somebody in England or they would go online and buy them from somebody in Poland or Holland or Germany or Czech Republic or whatever and get them sent over and the implications of that are far greater and it does happen I could go online today and buy a legal product and it will be here within a week I could do that If you get any idea of the amount I know Russell asked that question as well but I'd really keen to know how big it is in terms of the black market If I give you a real world example and this happened two years ago somebody we know was asked to go to Coventry airport to collect fireworks which had been discovered by HMRC and had come in on a commercial aircraft from Poland and they opened the box and they found 23kg of banners in the box and the box was destined for the Republic of Ireland so the ultimate delivery address for that 23kg of 1.1g what we call 1.1g explosives which is the highest rating on explosives fireworks are down at 1.4 in general some are 1.3 but 1.1 is the highest so that was 23kg of banners Now what was it that took down the lock on big line? I mean it was a fraction of that an absolute fraction of the amount of power Okay sorry I've been involved in the last year in banners that have been brought into this country sorry brought into the UK which are of a type which is very concerning they are not only there are banners that you would like this is a banger with an impact sensitive initiator on them so we've all seen those tadpole-like things that you can throw on the ground and they go bang this is a great big banger that's got impact sensitive composition that's found itself into the UK for sale online and just literally throw it on the ground those are the kinds of online things that we're going to see but it will just spiral this bill would be a disaster for Scotland and I will forgive me for keeping saying this it would be a disaster you would almost immediately see the creation of a big black market which has been seen in other countries this has been a message that the industry has brought to governments for many many years since the 90s the British industry is working with COSLA on the regulations that result in the 2003 act and when we sit here and we talk about enforcers who say they don't have the tools to deal with things those enforcers they help make those regulations beforehand to give them the powers to deal with antisocial behaviour and for 20 years we've dealt with antisocial behaviour quite successfully so to then say that we need further legislation to deal with it when actually it's not being dealt with I apologise for going off at the tangent but yes it will create black markets, white vans websites thanks very much I'm going to bring in Fulton McGregor and then I'll bring in Jamie Greene Thanks, good morning panel I've got one question that's on the back and it's around about the times you know that the bill is proposing so we've had some questions around this and it's an area that I've been asking various panellists on we've got some concerns about it I think that the previous panel has generally been in favour of it and that's been reassured for me as a committee member I'm guessing you might have a different view but I would like to give you the opportunity to give your view if it's different to explain that you know one of the concerns we've got is by picking dates by the Government or the Parliament because ultimately it will be the Parliament on dates you're there for rolling out other dates that may be important to people envisage that being a difficulty for the bill going forward you know that there are certain days that fireworks can be used in other days they can't from both perspectives of the days that they can't be used there might be important festivals or milestones for individuals but also a point that Pauline McNeill has raised a couple of times that also people may choose to then a festival for them if that makes sense I wonder if I can get your views on that Again it's this situation distinguishing between the misuse of fireworks with those periods and the intentional misuse if you like so if you have it if you introduce these restrictions on these certain days you may reduce the misuse or you may reduce the use of fireworks by law by the citizens but how do you address the people who will deliberately and intentionally go out and use fireworks because they're being told not to use fireworks it just creates this spiral it creates it and we've seen it in so many places where let's do this because we think this will solve the problem and it makes it worse so we've not done enough so we need to do this and it makes it worse so let's keep going and keep going until we ultimately say you cannot use fireworks ever anywhere at all and you still have the problem and that is our concern is that the periods of use thing will have unintended consequences it will have unintended consequences I mean there was evidence given by Scottish Fire and Rescue who felt that if there was restricted periods of use there would not be fireworks in shops out with those periods of use but that's not the way the firework licence works the firework storage licence is an annual licence so that retailer has to store those fireworks in appropriate conditions all year round so if you turn around and say you can't use fireworks between day A and day B there's not a magic wand that's going to go around Scotland removing every firework from every retailer just won't happen it's not the way the system has been developed over 20, 30 years well in fact over 150 years if you look back at the 1875 so pretty clear on what your view on the overall bill is you made that pretty clear in your statements to the start but if you're assuming that legislation the Parliament is going to pass legislation you'll want to be involved in certain aspects so on this particular issue this particular part of it so not overall bill just now this particular part of it what do you think about these proposals should we just not have any dates and obviously the compilations that would bring because in your year and stuff like that would obviously be days when maybe what you were suggesting could happen or do you think there should be flexibility for local authorities to meet individual needs and requirements or is there another thing that we've heard a bit about absolutely thank you very much I think there is yes there may be problems with specified dates but I think that you cannot draw a comparison necessarily with existing regulations that do specify certain dates such as Diwali and news even because some of those specifically are to do with late night use fireworks because of when the festival takes place and they give extensions beyond the 11pm regulation that you can use fireworks what we're saying is should there be other dates of the year that should be specified on the legislation well quite possibly there are community groups that would say yes absolutely and there will be festivals and there will be events like we have the Jubilee coming up this year and there will no doubt be many more and the need whether that is down to local authorities my only concern with local authorities from my experience is that local authorities can be very unbalanced in their application from one authority to another it is very important to apply things for your particular area but I can't where one authority might approve something another authority may say no for a completely different set depending on who the members are and their feelings on something so I would have thought that it would have been a central matter rather than sending it out to local authorities but yeah I'm sure there are other dates that ought to go on there and if you were going to go down the really specified dates which I really I don't think we should have those restrictions but if you were then I think that you would absolutely need to have some way of adding adding dates in I mean I guess so in terms of the point there about local authorities that's the beauty of them being democratically elected and I don't have a lot of difficulty with that there's different decisions made between local authorities because you know they can obviously make decisions based on manifestos that they stand on as well in what the public in their particular areas want around these issues that brings me on to my final question convener as well if that's alright which is more of a general one thank you for the answers on that area but you've put forward you've both put forward a really good case today you've articulated it really well but I think you know it won't be any surprise to you that it's the opposite from what we've kind of heard up to now and I think you've reflected that phrase as well and you know when I'm listening to your case I'm thinking there's certainly some good points here I then think back to the 6th and 7th and 8th of November and various other days since being an MSP where men box is flooded with people wondering what the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are going to do about fireworks and it is pay owners people with autistic children you know the world's moved on since even you know we were talking about earlier when we were all younger we loved fireworks but the world's moved on from them we understand people's needs better now we have more of a community spirit I think around people who maybe don't like fireworks before in the past it was the case of well if you've got an autistic child tough now that's not the case anymore and quite rightly so so I think that you know that's where the Government and the Parliament are coming from and I suppose my question is because I'm rambling on a bit do you have any sympathy with the part of the legislation here might not be to solve fireworks issue overnight it might create some of the issues that you've said but actually some of it is about changing our relationship with fireworks it's about changing the culture in Scotland with fireworks and about making that slow progress and the powerful message it can be given by a Government and a Parliament passing legislation for that insane to these people who contact us saying you know this might not be perfect legislation but you know what we're hearing what you're saying and we're going to try and do something about it I put that to you we do sympathise 100% we want the safe considerate and responsible use of fireworks absolutely but we feel that in a media newspaper saying that somebody was fin 5,000 pounds for misusing fireworks in a specific area would send a really powerful message to those who would consider doing the same and I would also add as well that in the last two years we have seen a dramatic increase in the amount of consumer fireworks being sold and used but we've not seen a massive spike in the issues of attacks etc and that was the information given by Police Scotland and Scottish Fire and Rescue so I don't understand why people think that by reducing or trying to reduce the amount of legitimate use of fireworks they think that will have an impact on the misuse and the annoyance and the noise etc because if more people are using fireworks but those core numbers haven't really changed why do we think that squeezing the legitimate use of fireworks will reduce those complaints there is a hard core element I believe it was David Hamilton who said because if bad people are going to behave badly they will do so wherever they are and that is what our concern is there is an aspect of misuse anti social behaviour ill consideration for consumers and members of the public and all this bill is doing is going after the law of Biden's cost and it won't impact that misuse so you will still have people complaining you will still have people sending emails to you, you will still have issues with attacks on emergency services etc and we've seen that in other countries around the world and it will just escalate and then you'll want more regulation and more regulation until you've regulated it until everything's illegal and you will still have the problems but it will just be so much worse that's our concern I think you've made that point and it is something that I think the committee have heard throughout the evidence sessions but I suppose the point I was asking there and I'll ask it to yourself and it was about the message that's sent and yes we might well be on a journey phrase or that's something that I think the committee's got in the back of their mind as well this might be a journey rather than the end to somewhere that the public find more acceptable with fireworks and that's what I was saying about the Parliament and the government sending a message and maybe being clear that it might not solve all issues have you got any views on that Andy? Yeah, you made a very good point as well from your perspective I don't underestimate the popularity of fireworks is what I would say I was fortunate to not be working on Hogmanay and I was able to watch a live feed of fireworks now the thing with Hogmanay is it's very unique in that at midnight whether it's here or it's in England for years or whatever everybody lets the fireworks off at the same time whereas for Guy Fawkes there are a number of different nights and there are a number of different starting times and this camera feed which panned across and showed fireworks going off everywhere because people enjoy them and people appreciate the enjoyment they bring to families it just strikes me that by introducing licensing and by introducing limiting the days that you drive retail out of Scotland because I'm sure the supermarkets won't continue because they won't have the volumes to be able to do with their 5kg limit on the amount that they can sell then there's the specialist retailers who are limited to 37 days and can no longer do this so for all of these options it used to be to sell fireworks we've already seen some supermarkets go and I just see that as a member of the public not as a part of the retail trade with all of this gone this popularity of fireworks where are they going to get them from they're going to get them from the white van man in Blackburn or they're going to get them across the border and you have a difficult job you must strike the balance but don't underestimate how popular they still are and how some of these controls and restrictions will affect families families that might just want to spend £5 on a small box of fireworks to light up the face of their youngsters in the back garden and now they have to spend again a big licence good thank you much of bringing in straight to Jimmy Greene thank you and good morning I hear what you're saying that they'll still be popular smoking was popular but we introduced restrictions around that it's no anti-social it was the norm but we don't do that anymore smoking opium in the 1800s was popular but we don't do that either so do you not think we are just on a bit of a journey and we may just have to accept that at some point in the future there will be a blanket ban other than technology moving on with digital light displays and drones and other forms of new technology that can do forms of power which don't affect animals and people with sensitivities I understand where you're coming from I'm not sure that we are on a journey with all of the people that still love fireworks and still enjoy the fireworks when we look at other countries there were three nations that introduced temporary bans for New Year's Eve on the sale of fireworks and that was Covid related it was just to stop gatherings and those three countries reported high numbers of accidents and also fatalities I believe one of the fatalities was from people that actually made their own fireworks it just goes to show you that in those countries where there were bans and it was against the law to have them and this is only a few months ago people still went out and bought them we look at Hawaii Hawaii is incredible thousands of miles from land and fireworks completely banned there's so many photographs of the fireworks going off in Hawaii on July the 4th on line and it's just absolutely bonkers the whole point that we're saying is I have absolutely no doubt that the industry will be very happy and willing and has always been to engage with government and go down that journey together and to find some common areas and to work on them light has been done in the past but once you go down the route of creating a black market there's no going back there's no going back and once you get the fatalities in Scotland that result from some of these very powerful fireworks you know it's difficult to know what I would say to the Scottish government after that I'll come to you in a second freezer because I've got some of the questions I mean, one end of the spectrum the government could have introduced just a complete ban and if that's the government's policy then so be it and I suspect the government would have the numbers in parliament to achieve its ambition and at the other end of the spectrum we do nothing and we hear about this perceived rise in social behaviour and perceived rise in attacks on blue light services now I think there's still some ambiguity around the data I personally would like to see a little bit more accuracy in what those numbers are I think we all would have options to what I think what it's been suggested to is that this bill is somewhere in the middle it's not a ban, it still allows members of the public at certain times of the year to go and purchase use fireworks and allow organised events to take place during the whole year appropriately so don't you think it is actually striking and I'm saying this as a devil's advocate because I'm slightly nervous about the legislation but I'm trying to probe you on whether this is maybe the balance that we're looking for I'll come to you first freezer for us it's a risk reward scenario and that's the best way of describing it I mean we've heard people say oh it might create a black market oh it's one of the tools we need to do multiple things etc and we're sitting saying look at other examples around the world where with the best intentions people have tried to do things and it has simply made them worse and that's a message we keep repeating it has simply made them worse we currently are in a situation where we basically have no deterrent to the misuse of fireworks there is no deterrent to the misuse of fireworks £150 fine for two police officers at £75 a police officer I mean where is the deterrent why are we not seeing headlines saying £5,000 fine this person was fine £5,000 and again that is where the frustration has been to several of the public engagement meetings a way way back and I spoke to members of the public and they said oh we see kids in the streets setting off fireworks and I said oh that's a criminal offence there's nothing being done about it well I don't know you're asking your own person asking me and it's all of these scenarios so one question was asked about the surveys and asking members of the public questions that have been asked I would have said yes if somebody turned around and said to me do you think something has to be done I'd say yes and the qualification was greater enforcement of the existing legislation in better education of the public and that's the difficult situation we're in and come back to what I think it was yourself said Republic Ireland has been on a 15 year journey and it's not getting better I'd like to maybe and I think as a committee we should try and explore that because you've referenced the Republic of Ireland which seems to have gone much further than our proposed legislation and I don't really feel we've taken the evidence other than anecdotal so you know we should be evidence driven on that but you're right the police have told us directly they say this would be another tool in their toolbox and are you saying therefore that it's actually a lack of use of existing legislation or a misunderstanding of current legislation that they already have the tools that they need and therefore it's just a perception that this will give them more tools sorry that's one of the questions we've asked the Scottish Government organise a meeting with the police organise a meeting with the police in the industry sit round the table and say okay guys where do you think there's gaps in this what is it, is there something that we can do and don't be looking at something that's Scotland's problems would not be Scotland's problems in isolation there will be stuff that will come across the border whether that's across the border from Poland or Czech Republic or England or whatever but we have repeatedly asked for engagement with the police to say understand what is happening again if I give you examples the situation we have with OPSS the product that Andy mentioned the banger that works we reported that through OPSS OPSS asks us for the technical evidence to say why that product was illegal, what the risk was presented with it etc OPSS then went and disseminated that information to trading standards, the police and there was arrests and as we understand that prosecutions are underway but that's how the system should be working is the industry being able to engage with enforcement authorities etc and work out how to make the current legislation more effective how to get the results that everybody wants I mean I don't want your dog getting upset with fireworks in the same way as I don't well a last dog just passed away two weeks ago but we didn't want our pets getting upset with fireworks nobody wants that but the risk presented by trying to fix that is to make things so much worse and that's our point Andy can I ask you about the retail side of things because the devil is in the detail with this bill, there are currently 650 around 650 retail retailers who sell fireworks of which we think they're around a dozen dedicated now the expectation is they'll just go under overnight really, I mean you can't really operate 30 days a year as a business when you have a shopfront and rent to pay even if they're compensated to some extent but we all know what government compensation schemes look and feel like so let's assume they go that then where do people then go you're talking about supermarkets that leaves around 630 odd are they going to stop selling them or do you think they'll still stock them if they can only sell them at certain times a year I mean this idea that we can dip in and out of when you can buy and use and sell them with the restrictions of the sale use and purchase that those three strands that are available to government do you think perhaps we should just focus on one or two of those elements because there is going to be legislation it's just because of the case of what is that final legislation look like do you think there's maybe a better way we can ship the bill going forward that still allows the public the freedoms that deserve well-stacked on the problem I think, Jeremy, with the greatest respect that probably is better answered by Fraser in terms of the impact that it's going to have on those retailers yes please it would be unfeasible the practicality of having to verify, check cues of people lining up in Tesco trying to buy their family fireworks and being asked to produce evidence that they've sat an online course and paid a £50 fee etc etc personally I don't think they would tolerate it I think they would just say you know what this is more hassle than it's worth we'll just stop selling them and crack on leave yourselves to it we haven't taken evidence from supermarkets specifically it might be worth writing to them but there's a difference between buying something in a supermarket or a big multi chain type environment I won't name names and I'm going to your small local family on Firework Shop where you have a very direct one to one relationship do you think there's a benefit to having that type of retail relationship with a consumer versus the big supermarket environment where really it's just a cashier just doing an age check for example and pretty much nothing more there's not that conversation element to it they don't have the conversation element to it but this comes back to what I said earlier a QR code a simple QR code on every Firework the public would just get their mobile phones scan the QR code and it would tell them how to use that Firework appropriately the legislation etc etc etc all of the checks and balances that you're speaking about from a licensing point of view but without the financial barrier or the discouragement and basically forcing people to look elsewhere and that's what we've promoted that's what we've suggested to both the Scottish Government and Westminster is to have some kind of joint education training awareness to minimise the unintended misuse of fireworks and that's the best way of describing it there's the intended misuse of fireworks which is premeditated legislation in the world will never stop that and there is the unintended misuse of fireworks people who don't know about the legislation they don't know what the current law is they don't know what times are supposed to be set nor fireworks not after 11pm etc etc so these are measures that we're suggesting that don't require the sledge hammer and the potential implications of swinging that sledge hammer and just finally running out of time but you're talking about use of technology to improve safety rather than a full blown licensing scheme which for all the reasons that it may create a class division amongst usage and indeed those can afford to get fancy companies into their big back gardens will do so and they'll do it anyway any time of the year but those who can't afford to do that will be unable to so your next door neighbour has a fired display and you don't because you can't afford to employ a private company to do it but is it not better for example for example if I do go into the supermarket we're all used to flashing QR codes now that I need to have done an online safety course of a couple of minutes or a few slides and that produces a code which is personal to me and I show that to the cashier and that allows me to make the purchase I mean is that maybe a better application of technology? It's a potential thing but we always feel that the best way in part information is at the point of use or the point of supply and this is where having something on the specific product is a thing I'll also highlight while we're speaking about the licensing thing and I'll try and keep it brief there is an unintended consequence which we brought up as part of the working group so if you're no longer prevented from using fireworks your home address for example now whether that's because of a fireworks freeze on or whether that's because of the dates of use etc certainly what you're effectively saying to the public is well go out in the street and put the fireworks down and light it then there's no in your garden you've got nothing to do with it and stand back and say I don't know who let that fireworks it was going and I came out and looked at it and I know some people might think that's far fetched but stuff like that will happen because well how did they know it's me that let that fireworks if I set it off in the park and stand outside the other side of the fence does anybody know what it was mean that set that fireworks off nobody does so again it's this situation about trying to introduce things to solve problems but not actually looking at the full picture and saying what is the knock-on effect they're doing that what is going to happen with stockpiling, what's going to happen with black market, what's going to happen with the white van man I mean there's comments being made with van man charter because they literally will be sitting rubbing their hands at this they will be sitting rubbing their hands so not only are they going to be able to supply fireworks to people who have not sat a licence they're going to be given the opportunity to supply them during periods where fireworks are not permitted for supply you know it's just an absolute field day for these kind of guys and that's what we don't want thank you okay thanks very much I'm just going to pick up on a couple of points that were raised in Jamie's questioning just around your early questions about this situation around a complete ban which is something that we've asked other witnesses about and they've shared their thoughts on that and it was really just to clarify that any sort of proposal around a ban wouldn't be within the gift of the Scottish Parliament or the Scottish Government to put that in place that would be a UK Parliament decision and also again link to that in terms of the option around a QR code again that's something that wouldn't be in our gift that would be something that the UK Parliament would need to take forward so just to sort of give a bit of clarification around that just on the questions that Jamie was asking particularly around the impact of the restrictions on business I'm going to bring in Norman because I think we do have him back again but before I do that I'd just like to pick up on another point that Jamie made and it was around the legislative provision for Police Scotland and I think earlier on you've really indicated that there might be scope for the existing legislation to maybe be better used more effectively by by police officers and you'll be aware that the bill proposes a new offence or set of offences around sort of travel to and from certain events a public assembly that type of thing so I'm interested to ask if you feel that given your comments about perhaps better use of existing legislation if you feel that the proposal around the new offence would actually be another welcome tool in the toolbox as it were for Police Scotland in terms of controlling sort of illegal use of fireworks in specific context around sporting events in the main I'll come to you Andy Thank you Yeah absolutely I used to be a police officer I understand the challenges that our lower enforcers face All of that All of that I do apologise I understand that and of course if that is a particular problem then I would support it but I would say that I believe that existing legislation is already there and I can see some gaps but I think that those gaps are gaps that could be closed perhaps another way for example we already had section 1 of the police and criminal evidence with the powers for search and they've specified fireworks but one of the problems that we've got is the technical issue and that is that some of these devices that are turning up at sporting events by legal definition and are not a firework they're a pyrotechnic article which is where the bill comes in but perhaps we could change the police criminal evidence act and that would be beneficial for not just Scotland it would be a universal thing and also it's the same really with section 80 and section 1875 that's the power that you may not fire a firework in a public place or on a road or so on that was actually amended by a Scotland act to change some of the wording in that and that probably only needs another slight change to incorporate the pyrotechnic article and by making those changes you achieved the same thing thanks very much I'll bring in Norman Norman I don't know if you're still with us I hope you are maybe just if you would like to respond to some of the questions from Jamie Greene about the impact of restricted dates in particular I think that was either yourself Jamie or Fulton spoke about restricted dates and whether that might impact on your business this is definitely 100% going to impact on my business unfortunately I will have to close my shop down and I will cease to exist as a retail firework company it's simple as that I can't be paying rent and it rates things to only sell at specific dates it's economically it's not viable for me to do that OK, thanks very much I'll bring in Russell I was really more and it was Rona Mackay that sort of touched upon it and it's something I have been seeking the views from all the working group and the people that have came along but it's to do with silent fireworks you've said that there's no such thing as silent fireworks but there's low noise fireworks and I guess for me and even when I shared the actual consultation on my own Facebook page that is what most a lot of folk came back and said to me was could we not just have silent or low noise fireworks then when Norman is talking about the impact that that would have on restricted days if we were to exclude that but bringing low noise fireworks would that not be the answer till what are the concerns that folk are raising particularly to do with noise the impact that it has in the dogs, animals and the sensory issues that it has with people with autism as well My red light is on Low noise fireworks are available at the moment to consumers it's a matter of choice they're widely available it's not a new development it's not a new thing they've been available for several years but this comes back to the education considerate use of fireworks maybe the general public or some sections of the general public don't know they're available but I can assure you Norman will retail low noise fireworks I know other people that retail low noise fireworks for consumers so it's not a new development they are available but if you start to then go back to the situation where you prescribe that people can only use that then that makes another element of the general population where can I buy fireworks that aren't low noise and then you expose them to that whole gamut of online sales whether that's from England or Poland or the Czech Republic and then you end up in this situation where you don't have fireworks that are limited to 120 decibels you're getting fireworks that are 125 or 130 decibels so in trying to solve one problem you can inadvertently generate another problem which is far worse than the one you're trying to solve so education to the public and saying we would encourage you out with the normal seasonal periods to go and buy low noise fireworks they're readily available thanks very much Norman can I just ask you about the sale of low noise fireworks and what is the cost comparison compared to high noise fireworks they're roughly about the same but as Fraser said it's educating people that there is low noise people don't know that they exist you do offer that when they come into the shop when we let people know that there is low noise fireworks for them to buy but the price is roughly about the same okay in terms of selling them has it become more popular the demand for low noise how does that sit in terms of your stock honest with you it's slowly starting to improve as more people are asking for it because more people are being more considerate as we educate them more so I think over the years to come it will get more popular but unfortunately not unfortunately that's maybe not the right word people do like loud noises and they love that bang in the woo and that's part of the excitement of the fireworks so we can't make them buy low noise fireworks that's entirely their choice okay thanks very much no further questions okay thanks I've got full time coming in with a very brief question and then I'll bring in Rona and then we'll come back to Russell it's very brief and I thought I'd take the opportunity of having the firework experts in front of me to ask this question because I won't get a better opportunity he can be able to explain to me women's terms what low noise is what does it mean what would it mean for me or somebody with normal hearing and also I guess if you have any information what might it mean for dogs because I know that they obviously have a different hearing okay there's effectively three types of fireworks and I'll try and keep that short there's three types of fireworks there's the type of fireworks that launches a projectile into the air and that produces an effect with a very little noise now the noise it generates when it shoots a projectile into the air that's the same for whether the firework produces noise or not but that tends to be a more localised noise rather than a distance travelling noise okay the common firework that we see in the UK is a firework that will launch a projectile and it produces a bang and the bang is produced to disperse the effect and that makes the effect travel in the sky the bang is actually secondary the primary goal of the bang is to spread that burning effect in the sky and that's what you see at the likes of Edinburgh Castle where you get the big globe etc you'll hear the bang but the bang is primarily there to generate the effect the third type of firework is a firework which is pretty much prohibited is a firework that it's only intention is to make a bang that is all it's purpose is they're very common in Europe massively common in Poland and that's called a salute effect and that's the technical term for it and certainly the industry we view them as pretty anti-social fireworks cos there is no benefit to that firework other than the bang and that's what a banger is Andy spoke about bangers the only purpose of a banger is to produce a bang nothing else, no colour, no effect so the first of those three are low noise for humans and animals as far as low noise localised and to give you a comparison it's probably the equivalent of a petrol lawnmower the noise that something like that would produce it's probably the equivalent of a petrol lawnmower in quite a localised area in quite a localised area it's helpful, thank you Arona, I'll bring you in and then I'll bring in Russell I was just asked Norman you're open all year round I wonder if you could give the committee a picture of when your peak sales are in that year I'm assuming it might be November around fireworks night but maybe if you could say if you have peaks in your year the reason I'm asking is in my neighbourhood we have a pop-up firework shop and they do their sales just over a short period and I'm just wondering if that's something that you've thought about and if you could give us an idea of what your pattern is over the year for sales yes, of course and Hogmanay are the busiest periods in our shop just like any other firework shop but we are quite busy during the year isn't a lot of outlets all year round so they can't go to a supermarket and buy one but they can come to us so we're in Aberdeen so we're the only outlet in Aberdeen that sells in all year round so we do sell a few it's mostly for birthday parties summer birthdays celebration of life seems to be a new thing with pink and blue fireworks is quite popular and another thing that's quite popular is the celebration of life when someone people celebrate their life by having fireworks and having more of a party and that seems to be a popular thing that's been taken off over the last few years so fireworks are for all year round if we restrict them and all these things will be taken away last a gentleman and his grandfather was an Aberdeen supporter so he came in and bought red and white fireworks to celebrate his life now if we restrict these these things will be taken away from the people in Scotland they won't be able to sell a bit like this which will be a shame but answering your question definitely no November and holidays without a doubt okay thanks Norman thanks very much a couple of quick points that we've really covered Jamie Greene did mention the compensation that's proposed do you explain whether that's been explained to you properly and whether it would make me any fundamental difference to the loss of potential loss of trade we've had no information at all on any proposed compensation how it would take place how it would be judged and assessed nothing the other thing that's a bit of a pet subject of mine in the way Collette often asks about the low volume ones is that what was initially proposed and that's evolved into firework control areas which might be harder for people to quite understand the nuances of would the industry support no firework zones given the biggest issue seems to be around noise complaints it's a really difficult question because a lot of the information that's been given out about no firework zones or firework free zones we would kind of question the logic behind them and if I can explain it was stated in evidence that firework free zones had proved really successful in Berlin and that was something that was mentioned really successful in Berlin but what wasn't explained is it's not a criminal offence to set a firework off in the street public space in Germany what was introduced in Berlin was preventing fireworks being discharged in a public space which is what the law has been here in the UK since 1875 for the entire UK so you've been presented with arguments that say well this worked in Berlin well what happened in Berlin is what happens in the whole of the UK currently comparing apples with oranges and the other primary concern we have about the firework control zones are firework free zones what it effectively does is take the existing legislation which prevents the use of fireworks in a public space or to cause fireworks to be launched into a public space and bans consumers from using fireworks in their own property and that's what this piece of legislation does so it gives local authorities the power to prevent individuals from using fireworks in their own home because it is already an offence to use fireworks in a public space and then it creates the displacement the whole situation absolutely but again we've tried to engage and say well we've had examples cited about what happened in Pollock Shields and what happened in Pollock Shields was the discharge of fireworks in a public space so there's no need for a firework control zone in Pollock Shields because what is happening is already illegal so how can you make something that's illegal more illegal that's what confuses us Russell just to answer your question no fireworks zone or firework control zone we would be concerned about describing it as a no firework zone because of course it is possible to have an organised firework display in a no firework control zone as proposed and that really is the alternative that is being given to the public is if you can't have fireworks in a firework control zone you can go to an organised display but as a general observation I rather fear that firework control zones just kick the problem further down the road I think anti-social behaviour of the time that we're trying to prevent is going to happen whether it's fireworks or whatever it is drinking or whatever and we're just moving it and I suppose that's before you even get to who decides where the zones are do you apply for them do you need consensus locally is it a local authority decision I think this Scottish superintendents said it was a minefield that didn't have to be created and I've got to say 100% agree with them what is the objective of doing that it's just going to displace and create more issues than it's all okay thank you Jamie I think you want to come in yeah thanks there'll be people watching this session especially those who've given evidence to us already who'll be saying well I hear what you're saying really sensible points and you've made them well but you're the industry body of course you don't want any further restriction of course you don't want us to go down this road and I would just ask you to say what would you say to those people what is it about your professional judgment that you're passing today that's not protectionist of your industry and more about what it is this bill specifically is trying to do and the way it's going about it because I think we're going to have to address that the feedback will be of course you heard from the farmers industry of course they're against all this as it was with the working group as you descended from the report I was going to mention the working group throughout my entire involvement with the working group I never once spoke about the commercial aspects not once and for us this is not a commercial this is a public safety issue and we can see nothing in the bill that will improve public safety it just presents risk after risk after risk consistently and doesn't address the core issue of the misuse of fireworks I mean that is the and that's what we've said all the way through to the ministers what we've said all the way through the working group but as I said earlier I was one voice in a room full of noise and it's not about the commercials it's not about the money it's about safety for us and educate the public safe, responsible, considerate use of fireworks and I can just briefly just add something sorry there's been mention of firework injuries especially in kids the number one cause of firework injury in children is sparklers sparklers and we've seen from well-meaning organisations producing safety leaflets about using fireworks etc we've seen pictures on those leaflets of kids holding sparklers without gloves wearing gloves when you hold a sparkler is the number one rule on the instructions yet organisations are producing literature that shows kids holding sparklers without wearing gloves this comes back to this whole thing again co-ordinated approach on the safe responsible, considerate use of firework and be careful what you wish for we'll be banning sparklers next as well but then in a serious point if that was something that would work on a step change and we could see very little in the way of unintended consequences then that is something we would sit and speak to the Government about because if people come back and say this is what's happening with kids okay how can we address it as a way in which we can get adults better educated on how kids should be using sparklers or is it time to look at the viability of that product is that something that will only happen with engagement with Government rather than being locked outside the room I guess that with permission I do feel though there is an inevitability about this legislation and I know we're only at stage 1 we haven't even started talking about the report or any sort of consensus but I just get the impression from the wider narrative that there's something going to be passed that final product looks like I don't know but what I would ask you is perhaps not now but as we go through that process is to work with the committee using your professional judgment and experience on the direction of travel of the bill and where you think if there is an inevitability that something will pass what will we end up with that is at least manageable you might not be happy with it you might think I have unintended consequences for all the reasons you've given today but if somebody is going to pass it less at least try and pass something that's workable none of us want to pass bad law so I would make that open offer to you the offers there we've repeatedly said that we want to engage with the Government on that and if I can just very briefly say to your point we would say that I'll take that to my opening comments I represent professional display industry and we are through the regulations the regulations very much support going to an organised fireworks display we have no interest in retail but we don't want Scotland to make a big mistake and we travel the world as you know it's in Spain last week but we travel the world and we see the situation in other countries and we really fear the direction of travel this is all being done with good intention but it's in part being done with our eyes closed I really welcome the idea of working with the committee and taking this further and developing something that is workable and that will serve Scotland I really do wholeheartedly but please don't allow a black market to be created in Scotland because you will not be able to get back from that I appreciate that I think we might just have our final we know don't know can you come? just from what you said that's great and we would welcome you working the problem is you haven't come up with anything anything today by way of any changes so that makes me think well how could you work with us when you don't want any change it's perhaps a question for Fraser to answer but I can only go on the fact that the British industry has worked with regulators for decades and absolutely this working group I felt was taking one direction of travel and I was an observer for a lot of it there are a large number of people in the room who all wanted to achieve one particular thing and it doesn't matter how much Fraser says whatever he says I think we need a reset and we need to sit down with industry we've proposed this to the minister two weeks ago we need to sit down with industry and say what can you suggest and what can you offer us and I have absolutely no doubt that the industry and that is Fraser and his colleagues will have options and proposals that they can put forward can I just come back to that we wrote to the minister in 2020 with a 10 point proposal we also sent that proposal to Westminster at the same time point 1, there should be an annual national safety awareness campaign agreed and funded jointly between industry and government point 2, enforcement agencies should receive additional seasonal funding to help tackle the growth in illegal fireworks point 3, enforcement agencies to receive better training and detection and apprehension of illegal fireworks and I personally gave a training session with COSLA to help trading standards officers identify issues or illegal product point 4, the minimum age for buying fireworks should be raised to 21 no one around the tables mentioned that no one's thought about that we proposed that, the minimum age should be raised to 21 why, to create a bigger disconnect from the teenagers and those that can legally buy fireworks there's a lot of 17 year olds no 18 year olds there's not that many 17 year olds no 21 year olds illegal fireworks, so via social media should have their sites taken down immediately and OPSS are working on that liaising with the likes of Amazon and Facebook and eBay fines for selling, possessing or using illegal fireworks should be increased allowing the robust minimum sentencing again, the level 5 fines I understand in England have been raised from 5,000 pounds to unlimited fines point 7, there should be a central contact point for reporting all fireworks related misuse issues point 8, there should be a standardised reporting structure for injuries caused solely by fireworks to include the cause point 9, better resource for border control to prevent illegal fireworks entering the country and this is a point to try and mitigate the risk from black market point 10, tougher sentencing for let-in-off fireworks in public places such as streets and shop arcades tougher sentencing for using fireworks as weapons especially against police officers and other emergency services and we wrote to the minister in 2020 with that 10-point plan to say how things could be improved in the industry with 100% support at Embarker Thank you, that's very much I'll bring in Russell Finlay for a final question and then we'll just finally bring in Norman just in case there's anything that he would like to a final question as well Okay, thank you very much I mean, banning the sale to those under the age of 21 seems pretty sensible not least because the criminal justice system now deems those aged under 25 to be not as the same level of maturity as those aged over 25 going back to the issue of pyrotechnics I don't know if the general public really understand the difference between fireworks and pyrotechnics and the question is has the increased misuse of pyrotechnics by some football fans perhaps being used not as an excuse but as a reason for this sense that something must be done about fireworks that culture of some football fans using them which didn't really exist before in the UK more of a European thing and is that therefore penalising legitimate unresponsible firework users and indeed the industry it's a good question and it's a very valid question the situation what happened in Pollock Shields people saw that this is ridiculous, something has to be done the general public generally is not aware that what was happening there was illegal the situation with flares and spokes being used in stadiums or along the side of the river Clyde et cetera or outside football stadiums again the general public's perception is something needs to be done about that they don't appreciate that much of that activity is already illegal but if there are aspects and again this comes back to the thing if the police came and sat and had an opening frank discussion and said well we don't feel we can deal with it because of this then we could advise them and say well here's how we could close that bit off tighten it more in respect to legislation but not have subsequent impacts and the reason I mentioned that there is about 12 different pieces of legislation and regulation that cover fireworks and pyrotechnics 12, some of those pieces of legislation are defined by the United Nations so if you start to get involved in deciding what's a pyrotechnic what's a fireworks trying to unpick things it could literally be pulling a thread on a jumper before you know it the sleave of the jumpers falling off because you've had knock-on effects associated with those other pieces of legislation and that's what we are calling for what we are calling for is have a discussion Pauline and then Katie you want to come in and then we'll bring the session to an end Norman had said earlier that scope for more use of fireworks for celebrating I mean I would have to I would have to express a concern at the notion therefore that the industry position would be therefore that we would just have fireworks all year round and if there's an increase in use of them we wouldn't do anything because even with well-intentioned fireworks displays in your back garden as you said earlier do go on and annoy your neighbour if your neighbours got animals so surely this got to be I don't have the answer to this but surely use some food for thought for you that are we really saying that if people want to celebrate the birth of their baby or whatever by using fireworks does that not imply there will be a further increase in use an albeit legitimate and legal and well, who would know it to be there Do you not see that that having all year round is a problem for society? I don't see it as being a problem for society if the public are being educated. So if the message was, if you're using fireworks out with the seasonal periods, there is these range of products available to you, there's the considerate use, there's the notification to your neighbour etc etc. And doing that sort of messaging from a non-legislative point of view and trying that in the first aspect of it, it minimises the risk of the unintended consequences, it minimises the risk of creating these opportunities for people to say, well this is great, I'm going to stockpile a load of fireworks and I'll go on social media and tell people I've got them here, just come right into my house and I'll sort you out, because you cannot go and buy them legitimately. So we would much rather see a process by which... No, I'm talking about setting them off. Yes, and it's the same thing. Yes, it's the same thing, if you could encourage consumers... Are you saying, I just want to be clear, I don't want you to talk around my point if you don't mind, I want to be clear, are you okay with the notion that whatever we do here that there'll be potentially more use of fireworks if norm is correct? And then that's okay that we have a framework that says you can okay within certain times, have fireworks all years round, and we just rely on people to be kind to their neighbours. You wouldn't see that we might be back where we started if that was... There wasn't a way in which to curb that. From a personal point of view, I would like to see a way in which we could encourage consumers to use lower-noise fireworks outwith those periods. That's what I would like to see from a personal point of view. Katey. There's a lot of issues that have been raised in the evidence which would require the committee to have a lot more data, but most of that data is probably not data that you would be best placed to provide. However, the first point of your action point is that there should be an annual national safety awareness campaign jointly funded by industry and government. Can I ask how much the industry currently spends on education and awareness? The industry just last year decided we would actually produce our own videos, and we did. We spent, I think, on two videos or three videos. We spent about £20,000. We offered those videos for distribution through government. OPSS certainly redistributed them and publicised them through their social media feed. This was targeted at the safe, responsible and considerate use of fireworks towards primary school kids. It was more from a point of a peer sort of thing to be able to say to their parents or adults, no, you shouldn't be setting off loud noise fireworks at midnight. That was our own pocket. I think I've actually heard about these videos, but that's quite a small amount of money to spend.  Can you tell us how much of the last 20 years you have devoted in terms of resources into education and raising awareness that might help deal with some of the challenges that this committee is attempting to grapple with? That might be something you could provide in writing. I can't give you that information just now, but yes. As I said in the 10-point plan, the offers are there and we're working with OPSS on that at the moment. Thank you very much indeed. I'm going to bring the session to a close. It's over two hours, so I think we've heard a lot of very helpful commentary from you. Thank you very much for attending. Obviously, if there are other things that you want to follow up and share with the committee, please feel free to do that and we'll take that evidence into account. Thank you very much for your attendance. That concludes the public part of the meeting and we'll now move into private session to review the evidence that we've heard this morning. Thank you very much.