Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alex Icarus And I have an interview coming up in a minute with this gentleman You can see on the screen if you're watching his name is Bruce Fenton and During the interview. I'm going to do my best to shoot down his theories. I've lined up a couple of points But I got to warn you that at the end of the day I'm going to probably have to admit that I can't and that's a huge problem Because Bruce Fenton and his wife Daniella claim to have done with their research is nothing less than crack the code on human evolution crack the code on our origins and Done it in a way that I got to say it will completely upset everything You think you know about the whole out of Africa thing the Darwin thing and even more significantly The who we are why are we here thing? So like I said, I'm gonna plow forward. I'm gonna do my best But I just have to warn you Your world may shift Rather radically about an hour an hour and a half from now Bruce welcome to Skeptico. It's been so great getting to know you and thanks so much for joining Thank you. It's a pleasure. I'm really looking forward to the chat and hopefully, um, yep, everyone will get something out of it Great. Well, I've been leaving up on the screen this Skeptico Jeopardy board which is a little game I like to play but let me back up and Maybe you could give us a brief bio of you We could go on and on it's just an amazing your personal experience is amazing on a lot of different levels both in terms of what you've Experienced experienced in the way that people talk about experiences and strange experiences but also just in terms of your experience in terms of doing real research and interfacing with Science and all that stuff and then we could get into Daniela and your wife and some of the Strangeness of that. I do want to bring it back to three books because we're not gonna specifically talk about these books During the show, but we're gonna pick out pieces. So I Layed a lot on the table there to unpack but tell us a little bit about who you are and maybe what these books are all about yeah, I mean I in terms of Research and an interest in I suppose mysterious subjects with the ancient mysteries the workings of human consciousness, you know and a lot of other things, you know My beginnings in that go back to perhaps 11 years old I remember having a collection of cards called the ancient mysteries of the world Set which they came free with tea leaves my grandmother would buy and she'd give me these cards And they just got me in you know an interest in these topics You had things like crystal skulls pyramids, you know late monsters all the strange things that you know We're all probably familiar with from mysteries and occult and all the rest of that. That's probably what I'd say I was interested but in terms of real research, I guess Probably from about 20 onwards, you know, I'd be entirely dive into the literature on particularly ancient mysteries You know is was there lost civilization? You know that kind of side it really drew me in, you know Egypt the pyramids, etc I mean in terms of my academic background, I'm an IT grad so not not an archaeologist or an anthropologist However, that that has given me some useful skills dealing with information and the flow of information But obviously in a different way and also when we come to the the matter of DNA, you know From an IT person's perspective, you know, we tend to look at DNA code You know as code, you know, I know that some people will argue that DNA is not true code, but we just call it that I would say it is a true code. You know, so that's where you know my position Also, yeah, I've done a lot of Traveling to various strange places around the world and I would science channel I went out to the Caucasus in Georgia to hunt for giant Spones. That was quite a that was quite an adventure I've been into the Amazon jungle to explore a a megalithic complex there, which is From an unknown culture and lots of other things, you know, my insights the pyramids So yeah, I've been boots on the ground, you know Going to some of the the interesting places in the world and also delving into the academic literature as well So great and you did a nice job and we could kind of go on and on there about stuff but when people read your book what they're gonna find is You're a really smart guy and you go toe-to-toe with the paleontologist and the anthropologist and you Crush them and you've done your best You know, you've shown me some of the email exchanges you've had with some of those scientists who some of them are pretty nice And they've come to you and they said wow Bruce I'm blown away by what you've written But it's quite a testament to two things one what a single person can do how they can make a Difference and without the quote-unquote proper credentials or without, you know being inside an institution that Protects them and all that you can still make a difference out there And the other thing that we'll talk about as part of that is just how corrupt but also inept Academic process that we lean on how doesn't serve our purpose doesn't serve us answering these deeper questions of who are we and Why are we here and it's failed us over and over again, and I think your books are evidence of that Can you give us a just a very brief sketch of these three books that I have? Pictured up here on the screen Sure. Yeah, the the intro Africa book, which is the theory my sort of theory of evolution This was complete title. They've forgotten ex just the intro Africa theory of human evolution that book Really it came out of the work I was doing in Ecuador when I was exploring this megalithic site now that seemed a bit strange But what I uncovered was a link to a people called the Lagoa Santa down in Brazil now They are quite mysterious, but they seem to be the first Americans and what you find is that they're morphology You know this skull structure Resembles out of Aboriginal Australians now that was anomalous. You also find there's some sites down in Brazil that seems to be around 40 50,000 years old now. That's usually controversial I mean as you'll know most will know it's been hard enough for academics to let go of the Clovis first model with with a first arrival of modern humans to the Americas around 13,000 years ago, which at this point It's overwhelming. I mean the evidence stacks up here and there and again, but you're absolutely I love what the what you just said is really important and I'm sorry to interrupt But I want to highlight that no matter how much the evidence piles up. They will not let go of that at least a Large portion of that community will not let go of them. It's been yet They they fought the change to for now And even now where it's becoming very clear and that they're having to acknowledge that there were there were some Settlements that are pre Clovis that they are still resisting incorporating the older sites, right? So there was recently you may have seen there was a news story They had a site about 15,000 to 16,000 years old and it was you know, it's like wow It's you know one of the the earliest sites in the Americas Well, only if you disregard a whole list of other sites that have been well dated But are just too controversial for those those skeptical, you know Conservatives in academia who say well, no, no, we can't be can't be going straight back to 40,000 or 50,000 You know 16,000, you know, that's tolerable. Just, you know just and it's amazing They say listed about three four sites in this Nat Geo article saying you know, these are the early sites and for example, there's a Particularly good location that the I think it's the bluefish caves and that was dated to 23,000 years, right and that was many years back the guy who did the dating, you know He was a laughing stock for years, you know His colleagues were making fun of him every conference. It was redated again recent. I think 2017 23,000 years, right confirmed his dates. Now that wasn't even on this list in that geo, right? So that gives you an idea of the thinking that's going on still that, you know We are not gonna put these early sites on no matter how many people Confirm, you know, that they're genuine, right and that again pre-faces a lot what we're gonna talk about That that conservatism and that dishonesty really in some areas of the academic field, right? But they do know that there's these anomalies if you like which the normal is it can easily be rectified by changing models But for now they're anomalies in their models And that's just one example There's other said the sites down in Brazil that are way older and there's academics down there that have been fighting for a long time to get recognition of the true depth of antiquity of these sites One of the problems they struggle with of course is that the field is really headed up by Europeans and Americans and North Americans So if if you're an academic from Anywhere outside of that you tend to find that your work is sidelined, right? So there's as I said, I had this conversation with someone recently that they'll say we have realized that we weren't Correct on something, you know, who is this we this is the royal we of European and North American scientists, right? Talking down to everyone else including other academics who did know something and who had perhaps had papers on it, you know For years, but then eventually they conceded they're we didn't know and it's well Apparently other academics did Chinese academics or Russians, you know, but they're not counted in that royal we right? So you'll find that happens a lot So it's interesting you start to get to see how the dynamics of these fields work Well, it is interesting and you know here we are we're going to talk 20 minutes in and we're still on the first slide And I want to get over and talk about these other two books because they're really the meat of what I was hoping we would talk about today but I can't leave that first topic because I think it highlights a couple points that I've already made and I'm going to remake is that one You are really doing the work. So boots on the ground in Ecuador boots on the ground in Other archaeological sites really digging into the best research and trying to understand that So that's the into Africa book and the other thing you point out there is just all the rather obvious ways that the Sacred truth of academia isn't really something we should lean on and we have to kind of drill that into Ourselves and other people because we're going to keep it's hard to resist the Temptation to keep coming back and going. Oh, but this is what academia says it and even if it's a counterpoint even it's saying Wow, Bruce has done such great job in the face of academia At some point we got to go no the whole system is more fake than it's real You just mentioned the geopolitical part of it, right? So if you're in China, you might have one agenda if you're European, you might have another American might have another well That's not the way it's supposed to work or look at money how the money is distributed in the grants and you know, that's not the way It's supposed to work But then take an even bigger step back and we've had some exchanges about this on the Skeptical forum and other places is look at the it as a control mechanism If you say that there's a social engineering social control aspect to all of this which anyone has to admit There is because any government any agency has an interest in controlling stuff That's kind of what they do. Well, if you're going to control stuff One of the things you're gonna want to do is control this kind of narrative And that doesn't mean that you control it on a daily basis or you're sticking the screws to some Archaeologist it just means at a higher level You're making sure that the story goes in a particular way And I think that's the other thing that comes out of your your work as as we look at it Vis-a-vis the official narrative and it's like well, of course, they're not gonna be friendly to what you're saying So let me shift gears for a minute there and do give us a quick overview of these other two books that we're gonna get into Yes, I mean I'm also there's a connection here because I've seen to Africa one of the focal points is Australia now and you'll find that is a focal point in the other books as well The the reason for that is, you know, I posit that Homo sapiens our story begins in Australia and that there's essentially a couple of waves that come out of that You know, so this really runs counter of course to out of Africa not necessarily completely At the moment the early hominins, you know, most of those fossils are in Africa Okay, but what I mean twice beginning to the homo sapiens story, which is around about 780,000 years ago. Okay, so I placed major events in Australia I also think this is to do with why we have a kind of an information Wall around this out of Australia because it does connect to the other two books where we're dealing with what I say is I've seen a Manipulation in the genetics of early hominins and this this first Massive I suppose leap towards True homo sapiens and modern humans and it's not instantaneous. It's not one day We have hominins and then we have modern humans. There is still a process over which these genes express etc But very quickly as well from the inter Africa I should have said that this is probably a key thing that people should look into I want to give a quick example of why the book is important because Recent out of Africa is probably one of those famous Models, you know within Anthropology that we come out of we come out of Africa around about I should depend. This is actually keep up Depending where you read this you'll hear that we even come out of Africa about 60,000 years ago The genetics right if you go to genetics, it's 60 to 50,000 years ago If you go to the archaeologists and anthropologists, they'll tell you it's 70 to 80,000 Right, there's a reason why you'll see that inconsistency everywhere across articles magazine Wherever you go, you're gonna see this that depending on here You go to the geneticists will say one thing the archaeologists another is because it's just two different events There is a there's a movement into Africa 73,000 years ago from Eurasia and there's lots of evidence for this There's a movement of culture, you know First use of arrows There's art that emerges all sorts of things new genes and then 60,000 years ago You have the initial migrations into Eurasia and those starting out of Australia now I said that very quickly because that's in people go away and look at that. I'm gonna say why would they hide that? I think there's a there's some kind of effort to keep us away from Australia and what's going on down there And I'm gonna say this and I'll see it and in the earlier waves of this again I said there's been migrations out of Australia So I do a preface that that there is something odd going on that if I can find that Inconsistency I'm sure academics can so I do find that odd that they can't notice there's definitely two models being merged together So in in the other books We go right back to that beginning of that homo sapiens story and I'm saying that you know We have hominins in the area and this used to be controversial until a couple of years ago because it was thought there were no hominins down in Oceania Australia or even in that region. Okay, but we now know that the the islands of Indonesia were well populated and they were populated by Homo erectus and also it seems Ancestral form of homo florensis the Hobbit people now This is going back at least a million years ago. Right. So this is before the rise of homo sapiens It's understood if you can make your way across these islands and through what's called Wallace's line Which is the geographic sort of barrier between Asia and Australia once you pass that? Your next stop is Australia and there's nothing to stop you, you know the major currents in that area You've already you've already crossed them assumably in watercraft Academics will tell you that maybe who got washed along in tsunamis, which is I think is a ludicrous absolutely ludicrous suggestion because you know, you've got to imagine a whole community of people washed off of you know The coast of Asia carried across to one of these islands without drowning or being eaten by sharks or any other from and all arriving at The same time because to make a community you need a whole group of people It's not just one guy washed off Bruce I want to jump in there and I want you to break that down a little bit further because You got to read these books folks. They're they're just just got to read them I don't know how else to say it Bruce does a really good job of breaking this stuff down and I had to take it Chunk by chunk and then reprocess it in some ways and let me do that here what you're saying is For a community from a genetic standpoint you need so many Jean pools in these little people to survive so some people say fifty some people say a hundred whatever But yet let's say you have to have but the difference you have to have 75 humans in order to start a new colony and then Take what you just said the idea that the fact that Some academic who's getting paid a salary who's going to conferences and hey, you know Everyone's patting them on the back would suggest that well the way that happened is there is a giant tsunami So, you know, we know what tsunamis look like we can watch them on YouTube So well that all these people together got swept up in a tsunami and Floated off, you know on various logs or whatever together, you know these great distances It's just really kind of a silly proposition It's totally absurd because I mean for a start one of the things we know is that tsunamis in open ocean You know, they're just a little ripple. You won't really notice you should be bobbed up in the air briefly, right? They don't carry you along. It's not like surfing the tsunami and once they hit, of course They're so destructive that if you're standing on the beach and this you know This mega tsunami comes enough to wash, you know your whole community into the water the chance to survive in that Initial event is so low And now you're into what is some of those powerful currents in the world that move through those Indonesian islands which move to the southwest, right? So why are they going to carry you east?  So It's I there's no reason that there's no reason that all the other logs or different Debris are going to go in the same That's right It's a ludicrous idea that we have this whole community founded in this one Catastrophe and they all end up on the same island, you know Yeah It it begs belief that this is something that they were straight faced state in it Like you say it's in a conference or on a show, you know They will tell us that that is their favored model rather than just simply saying perhaps they had watercraft And and again, we're maybe I'm guilty of it here Maybe I'm kind of beating a dead horse, but I do think we have to Grind on that because what you're about to do and what you're about to tell us is so so hard for people to accept I know it is. It's hard for me to accept.  Maybe we should jump into the Really hard of it and start with that 780,000 years because I have to tell you from Just you've been on the forum and we've done a good conversation and reviewing this stuff before and 780,000 years is the first thing that jumps out at people They go, okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Okay. I've heard these Alternative evolution origin stories. Why is this guy married to 780,000 years? What's the what's the deal there? What's going on? So Let's start there why 780,000 years because this is a big jump off the off the cliff alone It is and you know, certainly that if you look into even other alternative models, you know where people have argued for Some kind of event, you know, that's caused our evolution you'll find that yeah, the dates are different You know, I know that the section offers a a popular kind of argument that around 400,000 years ago Humans were upgraded from Homo erectus right by alien engineers that wanted them to be slaves You know, that's a quite popular model out there in the fringe world. Obviously in the mundane Well, that's not a popular model but so I don't I don't agree with that and I also don't agree with the With the conventional model either now One of the things that has been long accepted is that around about 800,000 years ago the human Brain basically goes into rapid unexpected acceleration now. This has been Known since we had a reasonable size collection of fossils. It's not new So what was missing from that was why because I think why does the the craniums suddenly go into this rapid expansion? Of course things have changed a little bit now because we have genes, you know, we have genetic evidence, right? Which before we just had the skulls now That's really been crucial like the work idea you couldn't you couldn't do with, you know What we had I guess on the table say, you know, 40 years ago or something, right? Because it is in those genes that we can see, you know, that something particularly radical happens alongside the brain expansion right now How did I ever get to Looking at that date though. Now, that's why I have to let me interrupt again and people hate when I do this but I don't care I One of the things that I'm really compelling in the book relates to this Graphic you see up on the screen, right? And and it relates to the point that you just made for those people who are interested in the genetics And interested and are able to make the leap that you said at the very introduction to your story is that from an information processing standpoint That's all dna is that's all genetics. It's it's about information theory And really that's where the science has gone, right? So it's it's really head in that direction anyway, but you make this phenomenal point and it's good We can almost almost start and build it from start at the end and then Lay it back in but I I have up there It's called chickens and chimps was one of the categories that I had on the skeptical board And I just brought up the graphic for it and what it shows is this 350 million Year evolution as it looks from a genetic standpoint the difference between a chicken and a chimpanzee and the difference is statistically insignificant And then you have the difference between a chimpanzee and a human over the last 800,000 years like you're talking about and it's unbelievably Rich and they're You have to explain that better than I did but also I want you to really hone in on How statistically Significant that is getting back to the science standpoint Yeah, absolutely. I mean this was um fairly recent revelations in science What is they found that yes in these in particular regions of the genetic code now? These are what's called highly conserved regions now The why for that is that there are areas of the At the human code which if if you change them slightly or if there's a mutation You essentially cause a failure now that either you'll be you know born dead or born with With such such problems that you probably won't live a normal life and won't be able to reproduce You know, so these are catastrophic failures to have mutations in these areas, right? So what you'll find is across the animal kingdom There's some areas of the code which remain very similar between you know pretty much all species certainly within I guess higher animals So if you take there's there you've got the example the chicken and chimpanzee You see that this is slight difference basically free changes over 300 million years of divergent evolution So we know that the the area that we're dealing with Is so critical to life that it's extraordinarily rare that a mutation will happen That's in some way positive or neutral and will be retained going forward Right so people have to sort of appreciate that these are these areas that don't just keep randomly changing regularly. Yeah, very stable Now what we see here is that since the split That's happened between chimps and humans which around five million years ago that there's been Wild changes and we know that some of these cluster around the time that That our lineages split neanderthals and denisovans again, which is around the 780 thousand years ago So we have a cluster of these then there are some at other points But there's a cluster there now what the heck's going on here because we have Leading academics that are examining these areas are saying well when we do the maths We find that the the chances of this happening by any known evolutionary means Is a statistically zero Right now that that's saying it really should I should hit anyone, you know, I think well, hang on a minute. This isn't bruce saying this You know this is you know leading bio statisticians, you know Working out the numbers and saying that these should not be there, you know in all of our models These would not be there and yet that break that down a little bit I think it's such an important point that my understanding of it is that 300 million years is a long long time It's a lot of generations And if those generations don't change don't show any Change over that time Then they're really really stable. So that becomes your base So all these changes we see on the screen in pink become much much more Significant because you look at that and you go. Oh, well, it's just three versus 18 Not that big of a difference, but statistically it's the time scale. Yeah Yeah, that there's no way in those few million years that you shouldn't have even had one more change You certainly shouldn't have about 18 One more would have been weird, you know, they would have had to have scratched their heads But why did that happen? But to have so many and put them to be successful and in some way beneficial because remember that for them to persist They must be giving us a benefit Right, that's the other the other aspect to your point for them to persist at the very least They don't have they shouldn't kill you Absolutely changes in those Deadly sequence. Yeah, right And the primary is not just one. This is a best example. It's called har one Yes, the the best example of these But the essentially there's areas called human accelerated regions because they found these regions that seem to have gone through Accelerated evening process and they found a number of them now. I think they're up to hundreds of them Right, which are specific to us, you know, we don't find them in the other primates They've happened since our split And that there's hundreds and they're not these are not genes, right? This is these are areas that are related to what's called a Genetic switches these areas that control the expression of genes So let's just say you have a gene that will give you a a certain length of arm, right? But there's also switches which will Cause that expression to make you have a longer arm shorter arm You could even turn off the gene, right, which gives you that arm So with these switches, you can do so let's say if you're Engineering something and you understood these areas You could do remarkable things, you know, you can recreate an organism by modifying all of these switches Okay, so you're not adding in genes or taking out genes not not at that stage You're just playing with these switches, right? But yet you can do extraordinary things But if we were to try and do that today It would be impossible. We do not understand the science well enough And I said we would end up just killing the organism if we make one of these changes hoping for the best It's almost certain it will die because we know that in 300 million years Only three were successful. So our chances of just stumbling on one, you know Our stage in genetic engineering Is minuscule, right? And yet we see these huge number successes Okay, can they be natural? Well, as far as we know right now, there's no natural mechanism Which explains this So the default in that then is can it be unnatural? And I said, yes, of course it can as long as there is something i.e. intelligence somewhere Which is able to modify this deliberately. We don't really have a lot of other choices here because The academics are telling us, you know, this is zero percent chance from what we understand So what else can it be, you know now simple as a word if you just left to You know alien engineers. Well, no, I mean I have other reasons why I go down that route But there is Implicitly a need for a solution to these areas and I say hundreds of areas if the human DNA code and we should add that from a Kind of logic reasons and science theory of science standpoint It doesn't really matter how you develop your theory What matters is your testing of that theory, right? So in a minute, we're going to talk about How you even decided to look at seven hundred and eighty thousand years ago And if we look at the history of science, there's plenty of cases where people had a dream, right? For all the way from einstein to Mozart in a different area But yeah, that's all over the place that people are accessing Some other aspect of consciousness and get inspiration. So your inspiration Let's talk about this book that we have up there and and as that is a starting point But what we want to emphasize don't lose track here. This guy is science all the way So he's like he can develop a theory, but then he's very rigorous about testing that theory Yeah, I mean you can have I guess in this way, there's there's plenty of religious people in the sciences, right? For example, you know, they're able to understand that they have their religious faith Perhaps their religious experiences, but they can also go to their day job, right and do hard science So so someone says that there's a contrast. How can you be this kind of, you know, esoteric thinker or mystic and yet Be concerned with hard science. Well, there's Thousands and thousands of scientists that are doing that every day, right? That they're putting their their belief in a pantheon of gods to one side while they do their lab work, right? So so that shouldn't be implicitly a problem. Some people find it a problem But it shouldn't be because we should be used to that Now the way it happened in this case is that yeah, I read this book And out your anger when the first ancestors were created came to me through a connection a australian Um friend that knew the book, right? So they sort of mentioned it to me because of some other experiences personal experiences that I'd had Which made it relevant uh metaphysical experiences and so I read this and I Really there's parts of it that really grabbed me particularly there was There's a description of a craft coming to this planet, you know in the distant distant past says towards 900,000 years ago, so it's not giving the exact date that I will argue for and I'll come to that But it's, you know Well far back in that period and that this craft is basically destroyed There's a few survives that come from it. There's obviously a longer backstory to this That some of them survive they come down to the planet now One of the reasons why this really grabbed me is that many years ago going back to about 2001 I had a shamanic journey, you know in which I saw Events which were very much paralleled to this so so when I had, you know, put the two things together I'm reading this book. I'm thinking that really reminds me of some of the visionary experiences I had years ago, you know these beings in these uniforms is described in a craft coming towards earth Things I'd seen in that vision which at the time meant nothing to me And I'd put it away for years and years being, you know, just one of those things a strange experience that you have no context for Now suddenly I had context, you know There's a book telling you oh well this happened and this happened and this and and you can recognize that yes This seems to be very similar Now what was important about this because not into the layout details of this craft, you know, roughly when it arrived how it's destroyed what it's made of the Potential kind of debris that would be left But also other events in there which could be tracked, you know a bombardment of asteroids a few years later five years after this explosion And a description of the creating of the first Homo sapiens all clustered together right in in a temporal space and In a physical place So I'm thinking well if if this is true And that the author says look although she feels it's true at the end She says only I'm not providing you science, you know, if you believe it you believe it if you don't you don't and you know She's quite honest about that. She doesn't say, you know, you must believe my you know my book Because she's aware that she doesn't do what I do and go away and get, you know scientific Evidence she leaves it as it is now I should clarify. How did she get this story, right? And the way I would interpret it And you can be interpreting two different ways, but I'm going to interpret it in a what I say a scientific way, right? that there is An artifact which comes into her possession an aboriginal sacred artifact called a choringa right or choringa stone now The lore around these artifacts is that they go back to the original ones go back to the dream time when their first humans were created When a lot of the landscape was created when there was these these beings that walk the earth They call these This sky heroes or dreaming beings who walked the earth, right and that they did all these amazing things now Can I just clarify for a second? So you're saying if you go to Certain aboriginal groups in australia and say what are these things? They'll say exactly what you just said there Yes, and that they that they have within them the consciousness of dreaming beings from that dream time right outchoringa beings Okay, so you have an artifact which in its own law says it has An inhabiting consciousness of some kind of entity from the time When humans were created that's in their law Right, so that's long before I've come around. I don't you know, I'm not involved in making that up or Or claiming that it simply is the aboriginal law for these artifacts Now when you really think about that that that can be put into a spiritual context Which they have which is you know these spirit beings in these artifacts Let's put that in another way Now let's say that there was a visitation to this planet in remote pre-history And that the beings left behind Technologies that we cannot understand technologies that would be essentially Unrecognizable to us because they're so advanced and disguised in such a way is that for us they don't look like much Looked like maybe like they say maybe look like a rock or it looks like just you know this artifact Which they they know it's very special. They know it can communicate with them. It has a consciousness So in their way of looking it it's a spirit being right, but Could this not be exactly what we would call a brace well probe because a brace well probe essentially is a very advanced AI Technology which can be sent out to other worlds You know, of course, it is theorized within, you know, NASA papers that they you can send out these things and they will Act as sentinels which will sit on a planet Wait for a civilization to arise, you know monitoring tracking the whole time and then at a certain point These things could be programmed to activate and make contact with the civilization now In this instance, it seems to be exactly what we have that's happened This this artifact this inhabiting consciousness, which I would say could be an AI It may not be a a being in the way that we think about it But again, then you come into a philosophical thing in there is a hard AI that self-aware Is it a being I think maybe you also come into the really the spiritual In the in a broader sense Understanding of it because I think we do get locked into our space time reality and everything has to fit into that You know, we do have to incorporate in your shamanic journey We do have to incorporate in your dream experiences Daniela's dream experiences and the reason I say that is because I've had a bunch of People have tried to explore that stuff scientifically. Do mediums really talk to the dead? Does consciousness really survive death? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay So i'm not shooting down the AI thing But until we can understand the larger extended consciousness reality, we don't really know but Your speculation is fair because What you're connecting it to is that hey, that's what these people say it is and you had this Experience with it and you it connected you with your past experience and then the real story is you said Let me see if I can prove it Absolutely, you know at that point it can be ambiguous. It doesn't matter if it's a spirit living in a rock Or if it's an AI in a probe, right? There'll be people who get hung up on that one or the other but as you point out there What really matters is is what it's telling us Valid You're right. So it doesn't matter, you know, it can be either and maybe they're the same thing But just from different cultural, you know filters that the spirit being or the alien AI Maybe they're the same thing. You know, I don't know but I can let other people Aside from themselves which one fits into their worldview, right because I'm not going to arbitrate that for people But what matters for me is the information again So we have this this object which communicates through voice to skull, which again that could be technological We have voice to skull technologies or it could be metaphysical could be telepathy, you know, again these things are ambiguous, right Could be both, right? It could be both What matters is we know that the both of those things exist technological voice to skull Metaphysical voice to skull. Okay, so I don't mind which one it was This object communicates information directly into Valerie Barrow's head. It gives her this whole Story of you know, what's happened and again, this is quite funny because very recently I I think is in a john keel book. He talks about something called the the dark night the black night satellite This is supposedly that they years ago. They just take the satellite orbit around this planet, right some and he theorized Maybe at some point it would provide a lost history of our planet Now that's kind of funny because it's exactly what this this object does It acts exactly as this story of the black night satellite that there's some alien pro which has recorded our story And is at some point able to then relay it to us and that's what it basically downloads the entire Lost history of our early origins telling us that you know, this craft derives um, it initially plans for a colonization event That they are genetically engineering themselves to live on the planet Which is very reasonable stuff because you think about they they can't just live on the planet They're not suited but they're using their own technologies to modify themselves to live here now, unfortunately, there is a Complex exo political event basically a betrayal by some people on board and to another party There's at that time in control of this planet. There's supposed to be a handover. Instead. There's an ambush This ship is destroyed. It's a vast kilometer diameter quartz crystalline ship grown from living crystal is how they describe it's not built It's grown and it's inhabited by its own ai within the frame of the craft But first you'd think okay crystals. Woo, you know, but hang on a minute What are the leading edge scientists telling us that the future of consciousness is uploading into vast silicon networks, right? So we have this enormous silicon network Within which is the crew, you know So the ultimate computer you don't have the computer on board the craft the craft is the computer Imagine the the processing power of a kilometer diameter, you know, moonlight craft, which is inhabited by ai So it's fantastical technologies magical technologies. So let's let's chunk this down For a second it again is a lot. Yeah I mean, I I don't know to to stop you or to just kind of let it go because I love All the the either deeper stuff that we could get into and all this but just let me bring it back up to speed So valerie has this download and I say download because in the ufo community We hear that all the time In the nde near death experience community We hear that all the time that I reached this extended consciousness realm and I got a download instantaneous like Encyclopedia Britannica, which is so outdated but take wikipedia wikipedia was suddenly just boom popped into my head and I knew the answer to everything I'm not saying that valerie said this. I'm saying this concept of download is well Reported over and over again in a number of different communities like the ufo abduction community and the nde community So valerie has such a download and then just to recap the download says hey, here's how you guys came into existence There's this huge ufo and it came through this portal that you can point to the pleides and that's not really it just kind of came through there That was like the the stop in the subway system and it zoomed over here and boom It was there and then it somehow got destroyed and because there was this war between the planet It's really kind of crazy Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, as you say. Well, no, it is it's necessarily complex I mean, I know that people would probably like it to be a simple narrative without You know a backstory of betrayed ships and alien alliances and but if that's what's out there That's what's out there, right? You know, there's if it's weird and strange and it's alien Well, it should be weird and strange story for a start, right? Because you know, it's an alien Story, right? So again, I think there's sometimes people Another problem I've some people will jump to is say well, you say the come from the pleides Oh, the pleides are a young star's cloud, you know, there's no way advance life could have formed there Well, there's was two problems. Firstly, they don't say they live there, right? They've traveled from there from a gateway doesn't mean that their Worlds are in there and this is multiple types of beings so we can assume that they come from various worlds in various places But their their last jumping off point through this wormhole is the pleides. Secondly, we don't know what kinds of life are out there I mean, are there life forms that live in these nebulous gas clouds within, you know, these young stars? We don't know That's that's truthfully we don't I suspect that the pleides may be entirely a manufactured cloud just to power their stargates I don't know but who knows when you start dealing with a, you know, type-free civilizations who it is fear ice They can, you know, move suns around and all sorts of stuff. We have to be careful of the limitations That we would artificially put on what essentially almost godlike Technologies, right? Where, you know, it's it's it's so far ahead for us That it just sounds ludicrous, right? But if you look at our cutting-edge thinkers in these sciences The kind of things that this download includes Are the things that they're telling us they imagine advanced alien civilizations having right? So there's a consistency there and again a lot of these things have come out only recently these ideas When valerie wrote this book back in Experiences back in the early 90s, but she wrote that she published book in 2003 A lot of these things went from out here weren't even out in, you know In the conversation in the media, right? There's a lot of this stuff is quite recent these ideas She certainly I can't see how she could been aware of these like voice to skull technologies or or that, you know Uploading consciousness to silicon networks. These really are kind of cutting-edge ideas, right? Now so we can forget like whether they lived in the pleides I don't think they did that certainly isn't you know a reason to dismiss it. Okay Then we have of course, yeah this what I say is a logical explanation You know not only that the craft isn't how to AI etc. That's why it's crystalline makes sense But also we have you know, they were going to genetically engineer themselves. They have those technologies make sense Hold on. Hold on because it doesn't it doesn't make sense, right? So a lot of people it doesn't make sense Their their mind is blown But bruce has done some science here that is in the make sense Kind of category like I have the board up here and you know chickens and chimps. We already talked about But you know, I think a lot of people will say that makes sense bruce That's a strong argument and you bring us to 780 000 years ago in a way that makes me Scratch my head and say, yeah, that is kind of strange. You got a couple other ones in here, buddy that I don't know, but it is just too crazy I mean, do you want to talk about tech tights? Do you want to talk about tractor beam? Where do you want to go? I think the tech tights because that is relating to the ship that we've already already discussed Go just what are they and why is this like even a thing? Sure now tech tights are Basically formed by stream Events, you know extreme like there's a cup. Thank you for the map. You see there's been a there's been a number of these a small number On this map, we can see here. There's been four major tech type events. You've got uh one over in in africa You've got another one over in europe and you've got one off see in north america Let's just make sure people understand. These are these are meteorites in simple terms. Sure impact. Yeah, these are particular kinds of impacts Now I say particularly because we only have four of these tech type stream fields So there is something placently strange and you know Anomalous about tech type stream fields because we know this planet has been hit by many many Meets rights asteroids, you know, you can comment if you go through the whole 4.5 billion years Right, we've been we've been whacked a lot of times But the strange thing is we only have four of these stream fields where we get these these Small pieces of material that have been melted They've been shaped usually into either dumbbell shapes teardrop shapes or small spheres and these are molten, you know Usually molten rock from both the object and from the the area itself has been impacted right which are melted These are really really really weird. These are unique in these ones are unique Couple of different ways and the other thing about that chart that when I went and looked that I didn't immediately get is if you just go like I Went to university of texas and they got this nice website and they talk about the tectites and they go Hey, they happened from five million years ago to a million years ago, you know, and I'm like Hey, what's bruce talking about man these things but now you dig the next layer like you just did That's not really a very Meaningful way of telling the story What because the real meaning is that hey these these particular kind of very unique meteorites that have this kind of Like a fast food or a snack food kind of core in the middle of one thing and another thing that melted on the outside Really that they're there only four separate events that are separated by millions and millions of years And the one that's really the most interesting jumps out even when you just look at it on the map And what's the what's the dating on that? And that was at 780,000 years And that's that's the thing when I when I went away to look up, you know Was there any material that matched the description of this craft breaking up? You know that this this crystalline this quartz crystalline craft, you know Huge supposedly carried around 50,000 beings on boards was like an enormous thing right that it broke up is described that it came apart It came apart melted There was a high temperature event the energy weapons that were used cause it's a shatter There's resonance frequencies and heating so it's like shattering apart Exploded and a script for what was a nuclear type explosion at the end and that then material rained down far and wide This is described in this download, right? So I thought well Could it be that any of this melted, you know, raining material could survive to the present? Because we're not talking about, you know iron or something that would have just rusted away right because it's a silica There's the chance of it persisting for a very long time in the geological records Now as I went away and had a look and I thought well probably I wouldn't find anything right So, you know, you'd have to be quite lucky that even if this is real events, you know You'd have to be quite lucky that something has been found it's been analyzed, you know, and it matches up And so I was quite astonished to find that there was a 100 year long mystery around this material called australite tech type and then, you know I guess a lot of geologists and chemists and stuff will know this it's been started by nasa You know, I hadn't perfectly heard of it, you know, I guess a lot of the listeners maybe haven't either Right and what you find is that there's been this, you know Longstanding argument over how it formed because it's quite unlike the other free Tech type fields, right, which again, they're rare enough, but out on its own is this vast australite field, which doesn't even doesn't even resemble the other strewn field It is just so enormous, you know, it covers some like 10 percent of the planet's surface, right And it's not shaped in the way that we expect from an impact which just throws out debris, you know Into a fairly omnidirectional way which we kind of see in the other strewn fields It's gone all over the place and it's covering, you know Australia all the way up to parts of China and then, you know, out towards Madagascar You've got this vast strewn field, right? That's an anomaly. It's very young And so they assumed you'd be able to find the crater this enormous crater should be glaringly obvious because as you point out Some of these other events are millions of years old and they found the craters, right? The australite strewn field had no crater, you know, and that was one of the core mysteries, you know Because they can find that there's chunks of material. They're over 20 kilos in weight Up in Basically up in like Laos and say well the crater has to be there because if you've got pieces that big they're not going to have traveled far So that's the crater. I mean are you looking around and there there's nothing, you know, obviously we can scan these days So they've scanned there's no crater, right? And then there's other issues with this because you know the nasa studies revealed that One form of australite these buttons that you showed, you know in the image They do look like a button shape, right? Or also like the nose cone of a re-entry vehicle And that's interesting because nasa has looked at them partly because of that They can see it's been shaped by the aerodynamic forces of re-entering the Earth's atmosphere So they were quite interested in them And they know for a fact that the only way this could have formed is if a large body Was in orbit now that's a key point in orbit around our planet So this not an asteroid or comet flying in hurtling in It has been orbit because it has a different angle, right? It has a different angle if it comes Straight in yeah huge speeds colossal speeds Particularly because they know that this material has isotopic ratios in it Which are signatures of being alien to our solar system, right? Again, so this isn't one of the asteroids from the asteroid belt which go up particular speeds Usually these other objects that come in are coming in at horrendous speeds So the idea that I say a comet coming in from outside the solar system Would be caught in the Earth's gravity and start, you know becoming a moon basically for the Earth is astonishingly witheringly small for the right But now you have this object which is orbiting us And then for no apparent reason explodes They say it has to have broken up in space and they know this because The material shows signs of having melted Formed spheres as liquid will in a vacuum, right and then Super quickly frozen again the cold of space, right? So they know that that was the formation process for that the initial spherules, right and that these then Slowly make their way down at a fairly gentle angle of reentry Which allows them to form these these shield shapes rather than just burning up. They come in at quite a shallow angle So you've got basically a deteriorating orbit And so they they make their way back in and they you get a whole shower of these and these are the I'd say it's the starting point of the reentry Zone so if you imagine where the craft itself has been destroyed now these mostly fell in Antarctica and southern Australia So this is why I say this where the event has happened because that's the signature for it These little pieces that have been blown off of it and they've come in but then you have Larger chunks and that these have entered across, you know central to north australia And southeast Asia and these larger chunks as they came in they become super heated And so they turn into aerial bursts colossal nuclear bomb-like explosions in the upper atmosphere And they throw down material which is now in the shapes of dumbbells tear drops spheres, right Which is typical tech type shapes not the buttons the buttons are unique They have to have formed from reentry from from space So that's one of the key points and we don't see that in any other strewn field Totally unique in the 4.6 billion years of this planet Now These how do we know the aerial burst one of the mysteries of tech the osprey tech types was that you find them in clusters on the ground And the geologists for a long time couldn't fathom that because an impact throws stuff out pretty much omni direction Or you know, if you get it can be straight in it's going to be in a circle around it But fairly evenly distributed you don't find them in little patches And you could find a whole patch hundreds of them and then they stop You could walk for another hundred kilometers before finding another one That's a signature for aerial bursts because wherever they've exploded they've come down the ground straight underneath But nowhere else, right? So you've got many large pieces exploding in different areas across australian southeast asia And this finally got proved. I think a couple years back. There's a geologist who spent decades It's his passion this subject, right? He's spending decades trying to understand it And he found a really unique piece up in one of the I think the muangnong tech types up in laos It's unique because it has a fused second Chunks stuck to it. He said the only way that could have formed is if you've had an aerial burst You've got material on the ground hours later a secondary or burst has occurred And a piece of material by good luck has stuck to one of the the cooling chunks He said at that point, you know for sure the only way this can happen is aerial bursts And so this is not an impact. This is debris raining down from an object Which has exploded in space. NASA told us has to have formed in space and now we know there is no impact These are chunks of debris from something and they're coming in and they're exploding Until eventually we get the end of the debris field up in muangnong But you get these strange layered tech types, which again are quite mysterious Because they don't understand why they're in these thin layers And I find that kind of funny because there's a lot of talk at the moment about Metamaterials from UFOs right between layers. I mean you get these pictures from, you know, TTSA What not they have these layers and it's very strange. You look at muangnong tech types or see actually they're in layers like that Again, nobody really knows why theories why nobody's nobody understands them So you have there a hand in glove Match with the download information right even down to what it's made of there's a NASA paper that says that they are Largely silica about 75% silica from melted quartz and quartz doesn't even form right in space and asteroids It's only formed in planetary systems You don't find chunks of quartz flying around right it's even so rare on the moon That when they found some they deduced it had to be from a meteorite from earth That'd been you know knocked off to them to the moon because they don't really get Quartz there. Yeah, so just to just to recap for folks the the story You Valerie gets this download of information about this crazy Hollywood story about a spaceship that comes and they blow it out of the sky versus War in heaven kind of thing. It blows up.   No one ever did it Acknowledge it's a hundred year mystery Acknowledge that this one is 780,000 years old. Acknowledge that it's especially strange. Acknowledge that there's no crater I am going through all of them. It it defies explanation by normal means and I think people have to Appreciate that you've done it the right way, you know, you've gone and looked for the data It's not your fault that the data completely false hit line with This rather remarkable story. No, there could have been nothing, right? I could have gone and looked and found nothing That that was the most likely Event that you know, you think well, even if it was true that just you simply Didn't find anything, you know, they hadn't discovered any material You know, I'm reliant on the academics in these things because you know, I don't go out and do geology or archaeology again So, um, you know, I'm a layman So I have to see what's in the records, you know in the papers in the finds and so by luck You know people have been out there and they found them and they've analyzed them So, you know, I haven't had to, you know, go and do some sort of, you know, oh in my woo lab in my garage You know, I've analyzed no, I mean, there's these are peer reviewed academic papers again You know, NASA papers, I don't like NASA, but you know, they Could work and also we've got independent universities geologists, you know, it's not one It's not one organization, right? There's lots of different people have looked at australite tech types You know for lots of reasons and as I say, he's even got a signature in there in the isotopic ratios That it is alien material alien to this solar system Right, so that again is another important point. There is these not even the makeup of the object is also not In line with asteroids, comets or meteorites that we know again, it's got a strange Ratio of different com a lots lots different chemicals in it, but strange ratios of chemicals again So there's a lot of reasons for them to decide that this isn't, you know, a standard Object, you know, and the fact that it has silica from melted quartz again Signature of that this is a very strange thing to be orbiting our planet this huge chunk of you know We sort of silica and aluminium, but with a lot of other sub compounds But what the heck is it doing there, you know, and then as you trace that down You can always imagine this thing coming in over at like Antarctica and breaking up And you can see the the lodge of this with these pieces from space until it starts to hit the atmosphere And then you get a different You get the aerial bursts and then at the very end of the trail you get these strange mung mung layering, which I assume is The closest to the undamaged material that we're going to get, you know These are the final chunks if you like or the molten Material that has ended up right at the end of that Decreasing flight path, right So we can trace it all the way down from Antarctica to Laos as it breaks up and comes in Very, you know, very strange, but absolutely a mesh is so well Because we also are told in this download that the escape crafts land in South Australia Now if they're fleeing from an exploding craft, I'm thinking they're not traveling too far You know, he's like get to the ground as quick as you can Again star wars. We hate to do it But I mean this is right out of star wars You got the mother ship and then you got the other ship you hear it from UFO accounts all the time There's the big ship and then there's the little ships and that's what you're saying happened Let's jump forward in the story before we run out of time because we've talked about I think If people are following along, I don't know how good of a job I'm doing of helping them do that probably not We talked about the chicken and the chimps And how that gets us to 780,000 years now. We just talked about the tech tights and how that Unbelievably gets us to 780,000 years But there's another part of the story that you Amazing again, you just went out and look for Just tell the story about the the tractor beam. Tell us where that fits into Again our hollywood movie and then where the evidence is for it Yeah, I mean absolutely and I will quickly say as well that you know from my understanding Valerie actually has had at least one Person come to her and talk to her about possibly making a movie and I actually think that it would be A brilliant movie absolutely brilliant right because it is it's actually it's action packed You know, it's not just that we've discovered, you know, these scientific, you know anomalies, but you know, it's actually You know, it's an extraordinary story in its own right But yeah with the tractor beam part basically that we are told that five years after these events happened Another group of extra thresholds associated with these colonists if you like or scientists You know arrive to earth and that these are a kind of police force You know, they are associated with this alliance But rather than being the peaceful colonists that have arrived initially These are kind of your cosmic cops of some sort right that they come armed There is repercussions against this betrayal So they warn the inhabitants of earth that are the current, you know, inhabitants of earth That they should leave as per the original agreement That they have destroyed, you know a peaceful colony ship Broken the treaty and that there's going to be consequences and so to leave immediately or face a planetary bombardment Now it's explained that this planetary bombardment is not, you know, laser beams or or anything conventional that we feel like that That what they do is they pull in asteroids and that they will utilize those to bombard a planet's surface And they clarify that, you know, if we need to we can pull in something big enough to crack a planet open Right, so this is worse than, you know, nuclear warfare. They can just wipe out your planet if they want to Right, and he makes you think he's like the dinosaurs, you know, was that deliberate? Who knows? But they said they're quite capable of pulling in objects like that They then go about this bombardment, right that the underground bases of this second party are sort of targeted There's a pulverizing of the planet I assume that something like that would be well known that, you know, we'd have heard of it in the same way that We've heard of the the distinction of the dinosaurs that this would be like, you know Oh, and then of course there was another event like this seven hundred eighty thousand years ago that we'd all know it So I I was quite skeptical that I would find anything to support this Um, but I went away and looked and it turned out that just I think it's in 2015 Uh, I'm pretty sure 2015 a german geological team had basically uncovered evidence of a multi-directional Planetary bombardment by asteroids, right, which had led to a global cataclysm firestorm tsunamis earthquakes Until 2015 no one knew that and keep keep in mind that you know, we're dealing with a book published in 2003 So there's no way that Barry could have gone out, you know, looked this up and just included it because it would be exciting You know, nobody knew and it's so weird again another anomaly because you expect an asteroid on its own to come in You don't expect Many of them to hit from different sides of the planet at the same time and they even say the composition seems to be different So it's not from one breaking up asteroid. These are separate objects So the so the germans is they're reporting this are going wow Again, like your tech type thing. They're going to another. Oh, this is an incredible anomaly an incredible mystery How could this ever happen if you're sitting back there going well, that's exactly That's what I was totally measures. Yep. It's an anomaly anomaly because you know, we've already got, you know We've got this anomalous object and how it breaks up. We've got this, you know Now we've got this anomalous bombardment and then of course we've got Nomalies in the genome, which we know we've tackled some of those But there are more and that the dating again for the the important Most important changes in early hominins that lead to us They again tied to this period around 780 000 years ago Now that was one of the crucial things for me is that if I could find the evidence that supported this narrative It also had to be In the same time zone, right because it's no good to saying that 500 000 years ago There was a bomb barb and a million years ago. There was a silica craft, you know to be a true Story all of the major events have to be happening at the same time, right? And that's What I found that they are Right, so maybe we've left a big we've implied this other part of the story but I think we probably should should go ahead and get to it because As the story moves on and I'll let you tell it these Beings they land in Australia and they say wow, we can't really fulfill our original mission but we can Kind of get there by doing some genetic engineering genetic manipulation, which we This is like we're gonna have to have so many interviews on this or maybe we'll make the movie you and I together We'll talk about that, but but their thing is like Okay, we do this all the time like this isn't if you really wrap your head around what you're saying You have to accept that this is just kind of how stuff works They knew about the planet long before this they maybe visited it long before this This is just one event that happened seven or eight eighty thousand years ago They weren't able to completely fulfill their mission. So they kind of went into this mode. Okay Well, let's do the thing You know how we do the genetic engineering and how we did it over there And we're always doing genetic engineering and it's been done on us We do it on other beings and consciousness evolves and it goes into all these different things and hey Let's see how it works here and what I thought was particularly interesting here because it reshapes our understanding is this idea of the garden so If you could bite off all that stuff that uh, that I'm saying on behalf of you and Valerie then What do you do? You know, you got this planet and you have these kind of different beings that are running around that maybe you had a part of in the distant past but right now you're ready to do Something I haven't done a very good job of explaining the story but pick it up there with maybe this idea of the garden Yeah, sure. I mean, that's right. I mean, there's another argument that people say well how Aliens wouldn't come here because they don't know we're here, you know, etc. No, no, no, it's explained in the beginning that this is a planet that's been seeded You know, this is being seeded by gna by advanced beings in the beginning, you know um So the beings out there are well aware of earth, you know It's been a planet chosen to be seeded Okay, uh, that there have been beings on this planet in the remote prehistory again that have lived here that are We would see them extraterrestrials. Are they if they've lived here long enough you could argue there is terrestrial as we are Right, so again, there's there's arguments for that But there they have played around with the gna and in fact There is explained that at some point this planet was lost to this other party after the seeding And that this other party played games with genetics created dinosaurs did all sorts of stuff and that later on we have this Transfer back and this is what this agreement was about this returning the planet back to this alliance And that obviously with this betrayal So there's been a lot of going on on this planet long before this that we're just dealing with the the event that has the most Evidence, right? They said there's a lot more that's happened right from the beginning. You know, there's always been a garden always been Gna being manipulated and whatnot creating the first hominins was a manipulation Right, the you know, homo erectus being raised up from those hominins and being a larger brain You know the earliest kind of I guess recognizable humans again That someone had a role in that and that now it's 780,000 years ago a different party is saying well Our plan hasn't really worked out of colonizing, but what we're going to do instead I'm going to use what's left of our technologies to upgrade the hominin that's here And we're going to utilize it to continue our plan of essentially colonizing this plot taking over this planet back to alliance control And that we're going to use these beings almost as biological spacesuits Now, this is some of the people in a struggle with a bit But anyone who knows to bet and buddhism and the the idea of directed Incarnations or directed reincarnations that some people not just aliens, but some people Can direct their next life and I reincarnation as far as I'm concerned has been established by the work of Professor Stevenson in Stevenson, thank you If even leading skeptics you've looked at his work say, you know, they have to say that well, you know Yes, his work is you know, he's rigid is solid is totally scientific But we don't believe reincarnations yet because is there unable to accept His evidence right not because his evidence has anything wrong with it. Yeah So as far as I'm concerned, it's established that reincarnation is real now These beings say well, they can incarnate into these humans as they dying You know, they cannot survive here because the atmosphere is not right for them. The solar radiation is not right There's bacteria in the water all sorts of problems that you imagine if you were marooned on a world, right? Which you were not ready to live on so they have those real world issues What they can do is create An organism which they themselves can utilize and they can then move into as they die and that's exactly what they do And just let me jump in there. This is kind of a little bit of inside baseball And we're gonna have another in interview and include And there's because there's so much to talk about but I'm not sure I'm totally I'm on board with part of what you're saying But again, it the balancing of the metaphysical extended consciousness and this narrow idea of time space has to be incorporated in Because we don't really know what reincarnation You know means and what means the purpose of that and if there is either Because there may be some cases where there's this higher spiritual purpose And there could be another way that there's just kind of a techno more of a technological Kind of I move my spirit from here to there We don't know if it's a mixture of that or what it means. We don't know what the goal would be You know, some people could pick that apart and go well a directed reincarnation How does that really get you where you want to go? Well, we don't know where you want to go We don't know what the goal would be I think what's important is we just hold the idea You know, we can go down all these paths and we have to but hold to the idea of what you're saying is that it is Not it is reasonable to throw that on the table and say that there could be a purpose That would make it reasonable to prune the garden in such a way that the certain Species evolve in a way that is a merger of The the genetic makeup of both parties we might not understand mind of God what that Purpose was or mind of AI what that purpose was but it's not unreasonable to assume that I don't think Well, no and again, you know What they say it's for and if they can say it's that we can't substantiate and we can't know that that's not just What they would like us to think on that particular thing because you can't substantiate it All he says that in their download they explain that that's part of why they're doing it. There's other reasons as well Yeah, they're more complex into Bigger vision things about this sector of space the other entities They're here what role this planet would play why they would want a sort of foothold here So there's a larger narrative they offer, but you can't really substantiate that unlike the debris unlike the genetics You know again because then you're dealing with What they say it's for not necessarily what it's for so we have to acknowledge that the way you can't substantiate Then you just have their version of why they're doing it So you could have called it it could be propaganda, right? It could be real could be because there's some parts of course the narrative that you can't easily just validate You know, you can't find a physical thing to validate something Which is just their opinion on what will happen by doing this, right? But what you can do what you can do and I think it's important and I'd love for you to speak to this for a minute The garden model That you're kind of outlining Does solve for a lot of kind of nagging problems That people have run into when they speculate about particularly Genetic engineering by non-human intelligence, you know, they run into problems Well, well, they would just kind of do it this way or that way and like in particularly what you point out is Well, you you you really couldn't factor in for everything, you know, you couldn't factor into natural Catastrophes, you know that changing the sun or you get a bad meteor, you know stuff happens You can't completely control the Process of evolution and natural selection genetic mutation can't completely control that and what it moves you into I think naturally is what you're outlining here. It's like hey, well, that's you know That's what a gardener does, you know, one year he gets a drought He like he lives through it and he lives through the next year one year He gets a mutation that doesn't quite go his way and doesn't produce any fruit Okay, he lives with it. He kind of goes it when you switch into that model It gives us a different way of thinking about Non-human intelligence and their role in doing genetic engineering. It makes sense. What you're saying Yeah, because we do it don't you know, you say, you know, if we have a garden we will we'll hybridize We modify we direct Breeding we do all sorts of stuff to to leave things how we want it in our garden And we will weed the garden when we need to if we look at some of the cataclysms in the past We have no way to know whether these are all incidental, you know Or whether they're directed because there's certainly been periods where Strange things have happened.  There's certainly loads of life forms appear out of nowhere But conversely, there's also die-offs where we've been reduced down to to tiny numbers You know, is that again, is that to direct certain groups to survive while others are removed? You know, we don't know but we do understand if you are gardening that sometimes you weed the garden, right? So is there times when certain species are removed and you know, certain populations of people even that, you know If we go and I say people going back we've got obviously long periods It could be 100,000 years ago But even more recently up to say 70,000 years ago. There was a huge die-off right a climate event lake toad But all sorts of things that happened and we were reduced to a small population again I'm left wondering with some of these, you know, are they all just Natural events they could be or I'll ask some of these deliberate, you know that hey We're rained down a virus that you know will remove such and such groups of people or such and such animals And they will be removed, you know because there being a problem We have to we have to ask ourselves that once you put in a intelligence that is godlike in terms of its abilities You know it's not what we think of as a true god But it can do incredible magical things that then you have to relook at all of history And ask yourself would any of these events fit with the influences of a power like that The die-off of the neanderthal is one thing that a lot of people have pointed at and said Why doesn't that survive in a lot of ways seems to be more fit for Survival and yet we have this huge die-off. I mean there's over many many examples of this stuff Well, yeah, and I think that shaping 70 000 years ago. There's this radical event that kills off most humans in the northern hemisphere I think that does shape modern humans. I think that the survivors of that event are pushed together And it's the final hybridization of the ancient hominins which gives rise to modern humans before that There's no true modern human not fully behaviorally anatomically modern humans not till 70 000 years ago And I'll argue definitely I'll go people and have a look In fact, you have the cultural revolution begins after 70 000 years ago Where we start producing all of these art, you know complex art where we link different things together Like it was a reticular language. All these things start to emerge. Yeah I believe that's the coming together the survivors of the denisovans neanderthals And probably dozens of other groups that we don't know yet because we don't have their dna on record that modern humans Are a hybrid probably of dozens of populations And so the idea that modern humans existed alongside neanderthals and denisovans to the beginning I think is a misnomer. We're going to slowly see that we actually are the combination of probably 10 20 30 Populations that have yet to get names because we haven't found their bones or their dna Right, but we know already we are not a singular pure You know subspecies whatsoever that we've got at least about six different archaic hominins dna in us so far Spread between different populations, right? So I think that again you could ask yourself was that a deliberate event Is that the final push that hey, we've got all these different groups. Let's get the best of all of them Into one population. Let's do something that shapes that and makes it happen. Ooh a cataclysm That will push them together. You know, we don't know once you've got that kind of Model behind you think well someone else is watching from the skies and you see these sort of almost convenient for them type events Right that if you are looking for a final superior model by bringing them together near the end Well that just about fits what we're seeing on the ground Well, you know and there's so many points to cover there, but this model that you're putting forward as I mentioned I think helps move us towards being able to answer some of these questions. It's an impossible model for 99 percent people out there to even approach, but that's too bad You know, we just have to kind of push forward with what we have But what I particularly like about the garden idea the garden metaphor is it it incorporates all of what you're saying But it also incorporates more which you know, we'll touch on maybe when we talk again But the the abduction phenomenon is something that we have to Kind of deal with and understand so we have that as well. So The garden would suggest I'm doing all of those things. I'm pushing groups together. I'm separating groups There's natural catastrophes there that I'm kind of engineering There's also natural catastrophes that I'm not engineering and then every once in a while I'm doing a specific CRISPR of my own making you know going in there and kind of tweaking stuff And only when you put all that stuff on the table Can you start piecing together something that? Really incorporates in a lot of the data that we have and you don't wind up telling stupid stories about how tsunamis Drifted people out in the ocean, you know And those should be the stories that people should be actually saying you know is ridiculous But because of the appeal to authority that goes on you know that something that we could say that someone would say is ludicrous Yeah, if an academic said it they said well, that seems quite reasonable You know and they conversely an academic can say something totally ludicrous If you or I came up with people think was so stupid, you know It's an unfair balance right because you know, if something's ridiculous, it's ridiculous If it doesn't have evidence it doesn't have evidence It doesn't matter whether it's a leading academic saying it or whether it's us saying it right, you know That it has to be reasonable and it has to be supportable Yeah, so no matter how wacky things sound the onset as long as you can go down drill down and say well actually this is reasonable There's support, you know, it's okay, you know If it doesn't have that then well, it's beliefs, isn't it just wild beliefs, you know You can believe a tsunami carried people. There's no evidence, but you know, it's a wild belief that you can hold if you want to Um, I think people need to look at it a bit more like that like so they can say well What you're saying Bruce is really wild stuff. Yeah, okay, but it's supportable wild stuff It's not stuff that's divorced from real-world evidence I mean and and I know we talked about the hars, but it's not just that I mean I someone could go away and say, okay, well, you know You found these differences for a chimp and it was really weird, you know, okay But it's not I mean there's there's far more than that. I know there wasn't much time But I said that, you know, we've got genes that literally appear out of the non-coding DNA You know, these academics try to say just appear suddenly fully formed out of the non-coding DNA and happen to give us You know the neocortex or something, you know, and there's another oh this one It looks like it's been cut Copied and put back in that guy says xerox looks like it's been xeroxed, you know When an academic uses a term like it's been xeroxed, you know Are they trying to tell us something because to me that's an implicitly strange thing to say that it looks like it's been taken out Cut xeroxed put back in from what you're trying to tell me here And then elsewhere you've got this fusion of chromosome too, which which yes Chromosomes confused but this one is fused on an active gene Which is to do with our reproductive system immune system our brain again the brain And then you find all these anomalies between us and chimps. They're all clustering in the brain, right? That what's the chances you say random mutation random mutation where I would expect to see changing the kidneys the leg You know the stomach the eyes, but that's random Like hundreds of changes that give us our brain our modern complex Super computer brain that doesn't look random anymore And when you find they're not just in the genes that they're in these switches as well And that you know throughout the system you're finding what looks like Bizarre changes throughout the genetic system like that have gone about creating our brain And this brain is not a clear advantage when when it first begins now we can say it is but we lost Energy going to our muscles, right at a time when we were fighting tooth and claw to survive What was the benefit of this fledgling brain that was reproduction reproduction is a real it's a real hindrance It's a hindrance Suddenly you've got you've got all the other creeps around you again You know essentially become stronger because you're becoming weaker and you're yet to develop even stone tools or you know Bows and arrows you've got nothing particularly that's compensating So suddenly you're you're a weakening creature giving energy to a calorie hungry brain And then you have a larger head Pass through the birth canal. There's more death at birth Then you know so that does that seems to get weirdly fixed as well because then we become Highly neotenous right creature, which means that we retain the characteristics of an unborn fetus when we're born We're essentially a fetus, right? So they've gone around the problem by making us be born earlier And then the brain continues to develop at the same rate but outside the womb and again These are sort of suspicious strange changes, you know, and we have gone to become more and more neotenous We've got a lot of these and they're suspicious for a couple of reasons We're just going to jam a bunch of stuff in here at the end But like hey, you know, you go watch your National Geographic show and you see the little deer that's born and an hour later. They're up and running around Hey, that doesn't exactly happen with humans. You know, they come So that's not really an advantage with our close relatives the chimps And if you look at the the agony of childbirth and the deaths in childbirth amongst humans versus chimps and other primates They don't really have those problems. They don't really have them. They have a shorter childbirth It's very rare for them to die in it. It's usually not agonizingly painful And there's sweeps of strange errors as well. Not just upgrades, you know, but strange errors, particularly in our reproductive systems You know, so I mean, particularly for women how they feel like, oh, I'm cursed by God or saying I have these problems No, there's weird errors that mean that we are handicapped in that and that, you know, it's so common to have spontaneous abortion, you know Early stages and difficulty with pregnancy and they found that there's loads of strange Genetic anomalies which are different to the other primates, right? Which only exist in us and some of these are very baffling changes because at the end of the day reproduction Is the key, isn't it right? So that you would develop a change in your DNA That makes you less able to reproduce and yet it persists is a bizarre anomaly Because you're actually worsening as a species technically versus everyone else and yet those things are persisting So there must be benefits that came alongside the time that those horrible mutations happened Well, and that could take us in the wrong way. I mean, I know exactly what you're saying But not necessarily benefits. That's what we're saying. It could be from the outside Someone is saying I want to engineer it this way So the gardener doesn't necessarily the gardener's benefits aren't nature's benefits Yeah, not mix those two together because no, we talk about benefits We talk about natural selection and we're not talking about those kind of benefits We're just talking about someone wanted it that way Well, it could be because you think if you have genetic changes that are done They may have more than one effect So let's say that they do confer a benefit to you somewhere else in your system But they come with a horrible negative, right? Where, you know, you end up with some other problem But because the advantages were so good, you go on carrying the damage as well with it Right, so this is a problem that you won't and it will take a long time to fix that And we haven't had long enough So if you think these events if this really happened seven hundred eighty thousand years ago Evolution's not had enough time to address all of these problems, right? So there are things that may over time we'll start to see some of these things fade But it takes a long time, you know, e-creation is a I say the blind watchmaker or whatever, you know It doesn't go anything. Well, let's just fix these errors You know people have to die off because of them, etc. You know So we we may find that what's happened is alongside the upgrades Some of these things came along with it But the upgrades were so you could say beneficial that they have compensated for the downgrade elements Right and that again is an anomaly that people need to look at and say well Yeah, why would we evolved have you know a more difficult reproductive system? You know that doesn't really function properly versus all the other primates I mean, you know, there's stuff like that that I'd like people to also focus on not just Oh, we got a bigger brain and that's the anomaly like no, no There's there's a large list of anomalies in the human genome Well, Bruce We could go on and on There's so much that people are going to want to check out on all three of those books the newest book I have up on the screen exogenesis hybrid humans. Please go pre-ordered. It's not out for a few more months But it does a good job of pulling together a lot of the information From the other two books and largely your work, which people can find tell us how people can Catch up with and stay up with what you're doing and what you're doing next and How we're going to get more of this information out because you and I have to have to make sure That this gets out to as many people as we can and for people who I didn't do my job at the beginning of this show I said I was going to shoot down your theories and I just fell into making it a big love fest And I apologize to everyone who's listening. So please Shoot this guy down Tell him where he's wrong. Tell me where he's wrong straight me out because I fell for the whole Falling forward hook line and sinker. I think it's hugely important. So correct me on that But I digress Bruce. Tell us where we can follow what you're doing Yeah, I mean if the people like to catch up with me. I'm generally on twitter They'll find me there and exogenesis My handle there. Uh, also I am on facebook. I don't use it an awful lot I have websites bruce fenton dot info hybrid humans dot net Ancient news dot net and earth rule dot net, which are you know control all of those? um, I Recently been on ancient aliens and I believe I'm in another episode coming up fairly soon And I should be a contact in the desert next year all being well Of course, see that's a few months away. So if people want to see me there So I'm based in the uk obviously so I'm not in the us a lot So that'd be an opportunity for people to come and either I don't thank me or shout at me depending on what they feel about this um And yeah, I guess you have that's probably the best places to to follow me and if anyone has any Feedback also ideas how to get the information out, you know, I'd appreciate that as well Well, awesome. It's been just terrific having you on and and interacting with you on form has been great too So I know we'll stay in touch Thanks again so much. Thank you. It's been brilliant. Thanks a lot All right, buddy I don't know. I don't know if uh, if I if I did the job here, but hey, I would love to see it It is I want to help get this out. I'm totally sincere about that. Tell me who's been Approaching you that I can help make some kind of You know mini documentary or film or something you must know some people I know you know some people have come to you and said bruce. This is important Let me help make that happen. Well, I don't know. I mean my that my literary agent has tried He's reached out to a couple of people. We tried to and Prometheus because of ancient aliens, you know They passed on it I think perhaps because they feel like some of the they haven't said why but I suppose some of the topics in it They've covered another episode. So maybe they they didn't want to Also, he's I think he's tried a couple of other Production companies, but we haven't at the moment got anyone I tried reaching out to Gaia because I know that they cover strangeness and they said they they don't take at the moment They're not taking external stuff. It's just you know, whatever they're coming up with in house to to do They've said look that might change. We might come back to you So no, there's nothing I really think it needs to be in a visual format to be honest And I don't at this point have anyone to do that I'm gonna probably try to do some I don't know video or youtube or something to try and get some information But it really needs to have a professional Documentary team or someone put this together right agreed Um, well, let's just put some let's just put some thought and energy into it and uh, so I'm interested in helping Fund that I'm not interested. I'm not worried about the return on it. I'm interested in the information reaching people So please consider me for as a resource in that way and I will try and You know Yeah, a few good ideas about how that can be done or even an initial teaser promo kind of show where we give some you know anything that could give you an aside I realize visual format As well as of course, you know, a lot of people now download in you know audio But I mean, you know, those are the two formats. I don't really cover very well obviously public interviews that they're You know that there's a lot of people who won't have this information even if I talk to online They say well, hey, because it's not on audible or it's not on youtube or so that they haven't really accessed it Um, so I mean yeah any ideas you have about ways to address that if it's in small serialized parts dealing with aspects of it or you know anything like that or if you know people that To do that, you know, or you know, I mean, obviously this I guess this you know People that can be hired to come and feel me and you can whatever make you know interviews about it But anything like that, you know, whether it's a series of interviews or a full documentary or You know, I don't I don't know. I mean, but yeah at the moment my resources just aren't there to do it As I said, yeah, yeah, that's my problem is that you know, we'll get it done We'll figure out a way to to get it done. It's just to It's it's it hits all the buttons. It's like the most important thing And it's super interesting. It's and it's like Cinemagraphic, you know, I mean we'll get it done. All right my man Okay, I mean, I appreciate you anything you come up with like say, you know, you've been really cool and You know, yeah, I hope hope it'll get out there You know, I I hope we'll too If you want to do the more esoteric one another time, just let me know We will we will jump on and we will and I'll just figure out a way to You know, I'll either I'm intrigued by this other idea, you know, we might just we'll I'll move as quick as I can on it Okay. Yeah. Yeah, let me know. I mean, I say I'm open to I'm Whatever format if you have ideas of different formats that might work Um, then yeah, we can definitely have a look at it and Yeah, see what will work. Great. I don't have any goal other than to help it get out there. So we just work together Yeah, and I'm struggled for that as yeah, even just to get the the the press to cover the into africa thing, you know Thank you. Yeah, you know one, you know forbs did one article deleted it in three hours So I mean at the moment my access to the greater media is is just the kindness of various radio show hosts Really and a few guest articles on independent, you know media, so that's it and obviously that's not going to reach enough people awesome So All right. Thank you. Yep. Thank you. I'll speak to you again soon. Okay. Bye. Cheers. Take care. Bye. Bye Thanks again to Bruce Fenton for joining me today on skeptico as you can tell I was quite enthusiastic about Bruce's Theories and his research So I have one basic question to tee up What if Bruce and Daniela Fenton are right? now One of the reasons I have to tell you I was so enthusiastic about this interview is because all of the great input I got from skeptical listeners Through the skeptical forum before this interview And I'm hoping we can pick up that dialogue now that this interview is published because I plan on doing a lot more With Bruce and Daniela because I think the question the hypothesis the research that they propose Is incredibly important if it's true if and only if it's Inquiry to perpetuate doubt skeptical style true. So do join me over in the skeptical forum. Tell me what you think tell me how we would go about Nudging towards the truth on this and then while you're there, of course check out the skeptical website Where you'll find all these shows and all our other shows 420 or whatever of them available for free download on mb3 And download them share them with other people you think would be interested In hearing this and I hope you do that. So again, you're going to hear more from Bruce and Daniela So stick around for that and stick around for some pretty interesting other shows I'm down playing and I have some really good interesting shows coming up And some that are less interesting, but some really good ones Stick around for all of that until next time. Take care and bye for now