Welcome into the original gangsters podcast another full length edition. I'm with my co-host and co-conspirator Jimmy the doctor butchilato. Hey, everyone. We got Ben behind the glass and today we're going to Do a deep dive of the New York purple gang from the 1970s and We're gonna bring that story up into modern times by talking about the 10 year anniversary of the Michael Meldish murder Meldish was one of the leaders of the purple gang back in the 70s and then in the 2010s Started to butt heads with a number of the guys that he was with in the purple gang that he was a Shot-collar over but fast forward 30 40 years those Italians had Ascended past him and now he was taken orders from them didn't turn out so well He ended up dead in 2013, but let's bring on our guest Scott Dici one of you know, we're huge fans of Scott on the show and Scott just published a book in the last year called hit men Drugs murder and in the East Bronx Harlem purple game Scott. Thanks for joining us. Hey, thanks for having me on So, you know, let's let's just just dive right in what what What first drew you to those to the subject matter and you know, maybe tell us, you know, how you got started in in your research Sure, so when I was writing my book before this Garden State gangland I Was researching the murder of Johnny Coca-Cola Lardier who was a Genevieve Smopster who was Shot and killed in the late 70s. He was on like a furlough from prison and he was shot and killed and Police trace this ballistics on his gun to a number of other murders that had happened around the similar time period Not all were Jersey Bay, so I didn't really Focus on them But let me do an article from New York magazine where they talked about these 22 caliber killings that were going on in New York and New Jersey at the time and they brought up the name of the purple gang and This was around 2014. So it was already after the Meldish hit So I kind of had heard the East Harlem purple gang and little bits and pieces over the years But never really piqued my interest but after reading this article and started doing some digging I'm like, oh, there might be a story here that coupled with the Meldish murder Really started peeking my interest on it. So I started doing some research and You know, you know put together the book proposal hoping that someone was interested and sure enough The publishers who did Garden State gangland were very interested in it. So that that kind of kicked it off and I Wrote it primarily during COVID which was interesting because it some ways it kind of focus my writing But in other ways it kind of limited some of my traditional avenues of research. So But I was able to get some some really good stuff and yeah So that that's how that came out if you had to give people that don't know anything about the New York purple gang And you had to sum it up in, you know, 30 seconds. How would you tell people who these guys were? Yeah, so the purple the New York purple gang were a group of young mob of Associates some of them are related to made guys who kind of all grew up in East Harlem and kind of fanned out East Harlem in the Bronx and by the early 70s were heavily involved in narcotics heroin cocaine to some extent and pretty much had this kind of path of violence and drug dealing through the through the 1970s and then Kind of fizzled out by the early 80s a lot of them became made members a lot of them were dead And then some of the guys just were still hangers on but yeah, so it was a group of these really violent drug connected Young wise guys, it was like a farm team for the five families And and you know to throw out a name that we've talked a lot about in the last year or two here in the og pod Mikey knows Mancuso. Who's the boss of the banana crime family right now was one of the original? New York purple gangers Yeah, and his ascension To the boss's chair Played a role in his old friend Michael Meldisch's murder Not the central reason why he got hit, but it definitely played a role and foreshadowed You know an incident the incidence is that the instance of acrimony between Meldisch and Mancuso happened around a 2011 2012 And Meldisch was killed in 13 so it kind of Set the foundation or or laid the roots about these guys who had once been subservient to him That now he was forced to take orders from And with Mancuso it came down to a woman that Mancuso didn't like that Meldisch was Running around with when Mancuso was locked up Yeah, so Mancusa goes away in like what 2008 sit I think six sick I've got to come around. It's a resident six. Yeah, and in August to 2011 Michael Meldisch is hanging outside Raios the famous restaurant in East Harlem It's during one of the festivals and he gets approached by three banana guys Enzo Stagnow being one of them. They basically beat the Shit out of them there right in the street as kind of a warning from Mancuso is you know stay away from This woman at the center of this kind of weird love triangle there so yeah, and then of course that turns into Meldisch trying to kill Stagnow and the Kind of the linchpin person in that is a gentleman named Terence Caldwell who was the the gunman both in the attempted murder of Enzo Stagnow and If you're to believe what what the courts found is the gunman and the Michael Meldisch murder So he's on both sides of that Yeah, well, he was a guy that was doing Heavy work for the Lucchese Meldisch before he fell out of favor With both the Lucchese administration and the Bonanno administration had been working With Terry Caldwell, right? Yeah, it was funny I'd have to go back look the exact quote But basically he says oh, I know I met Terry I was walking down the street one day and I liked his jacket like some bullshit excuse like he didn't know this guy before But like you said there were there were definitely connections with Caldwell and some of these guys And we should also know and we'll get back to this in a second or down the rock down the line in this interview When we come back to this but Mancuso was caught on a prison wire The day or two after Meldisch took his beat down and he's like laughing about it and Recalling it and talking about how he learned his lesson and how he was spitting up blood and so I mean it So let's let's go back to the To the 70s and talk about the Meldisch brothers Joe and Mike Meldisch. They're not Italian No, but they kind of rise to become Yeah, there wasn't really a boss of the purple gang, but they were like the de facto bosses. So yeah, so Basically what happens? I'll give you like the quick and dirty. There's the big mafia bust in 72 Carmine Tremonti guys like herby spelling the government like really clamps down on the heroin trafficking coming out of East Harlem There's a couple great books. Of course those of your Viewers and listeners that know about mob collectibles. There's a book called the Pleasant Avenue connection Incredibly hard to find book goes for hundreds if not thousands of dollars if you can find a copy But it basically details some of this early effort by NYPD to crack down on mob heroin trafficking So when all these big guys get arrested in the early 70s There's just a little bit of a power vacuum and then steps in these purple gang guys So the Meldisch brothers they grow up right outside Right in East Harlem right near Pleasant Avenue. You have the Prist goes who are related to the Meldisches Angelo Prisco of course who later goes on to become member of the Genovese family very powerful couple very powerful Kapo and You know, so there's this really tight familial connections and neighborhood connections and yeah, so the Meldisches are by the mid 70s if you read DEA reports of they're the hit man. They're the the muscle. They're the strong arm guy So Michael and Joe, you know, Daniel Pagano up in Rockland County or calling the Meldisches brothers up to come shake down Carding contractors because he wants to control garbage. So yeah to your point. They quickly rise in rank in this game What's their lineage? They're not Jewish. I thought they were Jewish No, I'd have to look that I'll probably remember after we get off here But they're not so they'll just be clear. They're not Italian. They're not Jewish. No, they're not it's so, you know, these were guys that were You know kind of I don't want to say mutts, but you know They weren't guys that had any chance of ever getting made Correct, but they were but they were in some ways The equivalent of made guys in terms of the respect that they were afforded by at least until the end with Michael Respect that they were afforded by the five families. Absolutely. And and they had a really Violent reputation so one of the things I talk about in the book is There's a wide range of numbers when describing how many people Michael and Joseph Meldisch killed anywhere from 10 to 100 So somewhere in there is probably The exact amount of people that they've killed or their murders attributed to them So they definitely had this kind of wild reputation And is it true that The inspiration for this group is the Detroit the infamous Detroit purple gang So one of the things I tried to do is find exactly where the name the purple gang came from in relation to this group If you read law enforcement reports, they said it was the press that came up with the name If you read the press reports, they say law enforcement came up with the name I talked to a couple people that grew up on the streets one of which was a was a heroine supplier I work with nicky barns And he said he thinks they saw the movie the purple gang and then just kind of based on the Detroit purple Purple gang and kind of took that on themselves so the origins of the moniker or murky kind of like the westies in a way, but By the 70s, they're referring to themselves as the purple gang And that kind of moves out into the greater obdom, you know, you Scott you both you guys probably know you talked to my guys nowadays and I'm like, oh, yeah He was in the purple gang or he was a purple guy So that that name has stuck 50 50 years going on now And in Detroit, it was, you know, the purple gang the most iconic ruthless powerful prohibition Criminal organization in Detroit history They only existed for about 10 years from about 20 25 to 35, but you had a lot of those remnants guys that had been around that group that lasted Into the 2000s and I just want to piggyback off your point about in New York how The Mancuso's and the Priscos The Meldishes When their names come up, you say, oh, they're an old-time purple ganger. Well in Detroit up until let's say 20 years ago most of the Jewish racketeers that were operating in Detroit after prohibition Up into the new millennium Were guys that had affiliations to the purple gang and they were referred to by the Italians. Oh, those guys are old purples Yeah, and yeah, they're a lot of parallels and I didn't even realize you mentioned the 10 years of the Detroit purple gang because that East Harlem purple gang was basically about a 10-year run. So yeah, a lot of a lot of similarities and a lot of bodies Yeah, I mean That was that's kind of the one I mean, there's I guess there's a lot of commonalities, but the most You know push in your face Bridge between these two is is bloodlust So one thing I'll I'll ask you then So one of the features of the East Harlem purple gang in regards to violence is when it starts And they're like 71 it starts a lot of it's internal There's little frictions internally So you see guys like within the gang or hangers on getting killed And then as they kind of coalesce and strengthen it kind of goes out and they become like guns for hire and Violence it was it similar with the same thing in Detroit. I do when I do my talks a lot of Jewish organizations will have me and they want me to come and give the Purple gang were the Robin hoods of prohibition and they were there to protect all the Jewish neighborhoods And I quickly take a sledgehammer To that narrative or that notion. I'm like these and these are for anyone that doesn't know. I mean these were my uh, that's my blood uh the the purple gang in Detroit were Started and founded and led by the four Bernstein brothers. They were my great grandfather's first cousins. They all came over from Russia together and um My grandpa and my uncle spent a lot of time around those guys In their youth And actually helped uh ray Bernstein who was the one that went to prison for 35 years When he came out in the late 60s my grandpa my uncle took care of him For the last couple years of his life. He had no family but The I always say that the purple gang in Detroit were Jewish gangsters that preyed on themselves Or other Jewish businessmen. They weren't at war with the Italians.  They weren't killing the italians. They were killing and extorting other jews Um out of the you know anywhere between 500 to 1 000 murders that have been attributed to them You know 90 of them were either within the purple gang or other jewish racketeers in that orbit So yes, there's there's another, uh, you know pretty stark It's commonality, I don't want to get too sidetracked here. I apologize to the audience. Yeah, scott. Did your dad ever meet ray? Yeah, he doesn't have a my dad I yeah, I don't I don't want to talk about an og like if you don't ray that's pretty gnarly He my my dad met a lot of people back when he was a kid Uh not to go down this rabbit hole, but my dad had a lot of trauma In his life as a child. So he doesn't he blocked a lot of it out Uh, but myer lansky was at his bar mitzvah My uncle al married myers goddaughter So, uh, whenever myer lansky would come to detroit, he'd stay With my family. I have fbi documents from the 60s Where the fbi got him at the airport and filed them to my grandparents house Wow In like 1962 not to continue this off track thing, but I don't know if you heard scott, but uh, myer's daughter sandi passed away the other day here in Oh Yes, she wrote the book daughter of the king. Yeah. Yeah, so But uh, you know, uh, let's let's segue back But I'll I'll say what I heard from a couple of my new york sources when I asked them about this and they echoed What scott had heard that these were guys that uh, as little kids or not maybe not little kids, but as You know in elementary junior high school um, they had seen the movie the purple gang with robert blake and then in the tv show the untouchables Which was a very popular show with robert robert stack The purple gang while they were not Uh, every episode characters They were recurring Uh, kind of bad guys or villains And in in the untouchables over I think a four or five year run of the untouchables um, so From the movie and the television show the untouchables I was told that uh, these new yorkers when they became You know into their into their 20s and were becoming gangsters that they latched on to that name from their youth Yeah, and in fact, I I just pulled up a couple of the names on there And that's another thing to keep in mind too with the with the purple gang is they were all kind of the same age cohort So they're all in their early 20s, but there's there's that connection too. There wasn't a lot of generational spread among them How many guys would you say got their button in in one of the five families? From that group. Was it more than 10? Maybe about 10. I'm look. Well, obviously mancuso, danie leo um And let let's be clear again for people that might not know A lot of these guys didn't just become buttons No, these guys were Major players in some of the five families over the years prism We's had prisco very powerful capo Mancuso and danie leo became bosses You know godfathers And danie leo With with the the genovese, right? danie leion and uh and uh, mikey with with the bananos so The these were and the maddie madonna I was just gonna say maddie madonna another big one Right, so was maddie madonna in the purples or he was supplying the purples. He was around the purples He was yeah, because if you look at when when he during the trial during the meldice trial He's referred to as a purple gang guy and he's in that mix. He's not exactly like We so There's no like hierarchy. So it's kind of hard to tell but there were a group of purple guys that dealt the drugs and there were some that were suppliers so Like tomas d'ambrosia who was affiliated with the columbos and Maddie madonna, so maddie madonna, of course was selling heroin to nicky barns. Yeah fire so And and maddie had a brother frank who Although did not achieve the later success that maddie did But from what I can understand back in the 70s frank madonna was just as big if not bigger than maddie So what what other than the fact that they just got into their 30s and started to Kind of climb the ladder past the the farm team and get Grafted into the big leagues if you will what were the other what were the other things that Brought the era of the new york purple gang to an end law enforcement There were some cases in the late 70s like frank the serato jr. He had a couple cases one for running guns Another one for drug trafficking a few other guys got picked up, you know maddie madonna, of course goes away in the mid 70s for a long time So he starts seeing some law enforcement split The other thing is a lot of these guys start moving up to Like takahoe yonkers the Bronx, so they start kind of spreading out a little bit more And then get affiliated with other groups So you see in the early 80s some of them Even the ones that weren't made they start you'll see like one of their names associated with a totally different group of Of wise guys So I think it just you know as they grew and they started geographically moving some of them went to florida Um, you started seeing that splinter a little bit. So it wasn't so much like these guys hanging out in east Harlem doing this it did did the I excuse my naivete or my lack of uh Understanding the way that the Harlem and Bronx area has evolved over the last 50 years But it is that area right now I'm guessing it's different than it was Uh in the 70s Yeah, yeah, well, you know east Harlem for for those of you listeners don't know when you you know When you think of italian neighborhoods in new york city you think little italy, but the largest little italy was in east Harlem But you know that starts disappearing by the 70s, uh, obviously new york in the 70s is a very gritty kind of rundown place So, yeah, some of those areas are gentrified some of them still aren't great, but but yeah It's definitely changed quite a bit since the era of the purple gang But that it was kind of that natural move you move out of the Inner city neighborhood out to the Bronx or yonkers where you have a backyard more suburban areas In terms of the genovese though that east Harlem crew or 115th street Uh That crew is still very powerful. Yeah 116th street 100 is 160 116th. Yeah. Yeah 115th 116th So to your point the families that really you see the purple gang kind of going into lucases Bananos genovese a few into the columbos very little gambino Connection to the purple gang so really the genovese are kind of the big ones that the purple gang kind of move move into I don't remember when john ormento died big john ormento's I think one of the most interesting lukezi guys and he he was he was getting supplied He was a big heroin trafficker He was being supplied by detroit for a long time because he was very close to jimmy right to the very close to jimmy quasarano Yeah, yeah, and um and ormento had trucking interest in harlem and so that's how he knew melee You know vince melee and those guys and then melee introduced ormento to jimmy q and the the sicilian guys But anyhow, I can't remember when ormento died. I have his fbi files. I can't remember Was there any connectivity between or was he already off the scene by the time that the purples were getting started So he was that that batch that got put away as the purples were coming up But there was some overlap you see like like johnny echoes is another one that that has some overlap with them Okay, what's it? What's his last name was it campo peon capo bianco? Yeah, and for people that don't people that don't know Johnny echoes was the basis for the jimmy two times character in good fellas Yeah, it's campo piano. I just uh, yeah, I'm gonna go get the papers get the papers so um Which interestingly not to kind of jump around but you know, he goes to prison for a while after this heroin He gets arrested again in the 90s and this never even made the papers I found this by going through pacer Uh with michael meldisch narcotics trafficking in the mid 90s. So Yeah, some of these guys just kept at it So it should also be noted that you know, again playing off of what you just said Guys like mancuso and madonna Don't get made until the 90s Because they have to go serve prison sentences So they're getting made kind of late in life but They're guys that would have gotten their button sooner if they had not been in prison But once they get their button they start to you know The forward momentum in their career Is going faster than you would think for someone that had only been made for a few years. I mean maddy madonna After a year or so becomes a cop on them becomes acting boss pretty quickly mancuso I think mancuso had to wait eight Maybe 10 years before he became acting boss But you know, these are guys that Got their button a little later Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, maybe it's served them well kind of being imprisoned through the 80s through that first big purge of law enforcement But uh, yeah, and I think part of like with madonna is you know, the cases between the 80s And like operation button down in the 90s. They got hit pretty hard. So It's good for career advancement. There's not a lot of guys ahead of you So let's bring us um Let's let's start to talk a little bit about The demise of mickey meldisch um A guy again was a was a big shot caller in the purple gang very dangerous um, but Up until the last couple years of his life. He was Very very respected and well liked by very powerful new york mob guys and was um Allowed to operate I don't want to say autonomously but Uh, wasn't I didn't think he didn't have the oversight that a normal associate would have Yeah was was given more of a a leash I guess and then you had the situation with mike mancuso who's behind bars Is upset that meldisch isn't listening to uh messages being sent to him to stay away from this certain woman And then there appears to be money that Was either loaned to meldisch or money that meldisch was collecting That he refused To kick up to maddie madonna. Is that true? Yes. Yeah So why didn't he want to kick that money up to maddie? I never really saw the the reason why That was an issue with maddan and meldisch, but their relationship started to deteriorate quickly and um You know meldisch kind of starts getting hotheaded in dealing with madonna and and that Is one of the reasons that leads to this event that happens in november of 2013 And he's cursing them like he's out on the streets like telling people fuck maddie madonna. Yeah. Yeah um So november 13th 2013 uh, and you know just like you see in the movies and We've talked about here a number of times when mob kills you You know most most of the times are not sending guys with masks and guns um Or if they do set if they do send guys with masks and guns They're guys that you know and in this case these were guys that uh, he knew Um that he lowered his guard Yeah, and so You know he meldisch or a london uh londonio and in caldwell Correct. Yes. Yeah So, yeah, it says, um, you know, he's getting out of the car He has like one leg out and someone like walks up to him and and pops him right there on the street It's in the um the pelambé section of the bronx Uh, kind of well now in in mob circles kind of a well known photo of him kind of half hanging out of the car probably Probably the last like major Mafia hit photo, you know of the modern era uh similar kind of to You know angelo brunner or something um and but police police doesn't take police long to start, you know, putting together some elissa suspects and um You know the interesting thing you you have to keep in mind here is there's there's a couple very valid scenarios and Motives from widely different sources and stuff as to who's killing meldisch so um And the other thing to keep in mind during this time and this comes up if you watch some other interviews with like Frankie pesquare or some other people Is that michael's brother joe is in state prison in new york for murder right? She doesn't have the protection of his brother on the street Correct. Yeah. He's not on the street. So um That's another thing that a lot of people and people i've talked to since the book have come out said that was another reason why they felt it was Safer to kill michael that if his brother was still around his brother would have just Gone nuts and gone after people regardless of who they were in the mafia and didn't his brother I I'm sorry. I should have pulled it up before we did this interview But didn't the didn't think what the brothers in prison for was pretty brazen. Wasn't it? Didn't he kill someone? Yeah, he walked into a bar. Yeah, he walked into a bar and shot someone. Yeah Yeah, and he was involved again and in drugs and similar stuff that michael was involved with Can I can I ask you guys just about psychology here? Um, I mean the whole point. I mean one of the points of being a made guy is you're protected by the organization So even if however tough these two brothers were They're gonna take on a family.  I mean these guys really I don't know that much about this case study. So I mean these guys were unhinged and they they they scared A lot of the made guys that they were around And I think I I I don't know if i'm overemphasizing this I'm sure I am Uh, but I just want to just be very clear to people that mike meldisch was not your average mob associate I I guess the what I keep on thinking in my head Being a detroiter You know alan health At the end You know, he was he was jewish and he wasn't made But at the end of alan's life There other than two or three four guys He he had more juice than everybody else And he and he didn't have a button um And alan wasn't a tough guy. So that's a that's a bad comparison, but well also he I mean alan's proximity to power He right he was jackie's right jackie's best friend jackie's best friend So he's with he's with the boss every day for 30 40 years Right whereas meldisch sounds like he at at this point was sort of alienated from any of the big big But I I just want to make sure that people understand that this was not your normal mob associate This was a guy that was held in very high esteem Until he wasn't like a jimmy burk. Maybe yeah. Yeah. Yes. That's probably a better. Yeah, that's probably a better analogy But to your point even if job meldisch was out when this happened Even if the guy was inclined to go start taking retribution on his brother's killers It's only a matter of time before he ended up dead. Yeah, you have to kill a lot of guys Yeah, the two of them couldn't take on the whole lukezi family. Yeah, right Right And Just to to take this even further into modern times Maddie madonna his underboss, uh, steve crea They're never going to see the light of day. They're uh, they've been convicted of this murder And they were sentenced to life in prison in uh, I believe it was a 2018 trial 2017 trial John panisi friend of the show John was the star witness at their case and John Was inducted uh Into the lukezi's by maddie madonna And I think even now john is feuding with the the crea family. I know that Stevie wonder's son and I think his uh, his daughter-in-law have been And They haven't Seized their attacks on panisi Since since the since the trial, but madonna is Going to do life in prison is going to die in prison because of killing his old purple gang friend ally so one other interesting connection to the purple gang on this is when The feds finally kind of put londino as the the shooter or involved in the murder They arrest him in 2014 with uh with a guy pasquale my arenas of banana soldier His father salvatore was tied in with the purple guy Well, let's go one step further his father salvatore who they called chubby Proposed michael mancuso Yeah for his button mike mancuso got his button in the bananos With with the backing of of salvatore My my arena Yeah, and that's why patty right now from what I hear patty boy is one of Mancuso's you know main loyalists who's helped who's got to help Guide the family With with mancuso, uh, I mean he's not becoming the boss or anything, but a lot of mancuso's loyalists are gonna have to uh, you know Keep the lights on and keep the ship steady for the next year when mancuso has to report to prison in september to go serve About a year on a supervised release violation Yeah And and by the way you mentioned john before john panacea. It was it was a big help peak Before when I was doing the research for the book I I spoke to him a few times about some just background information on some some guys and he He spent some time with some of the more lesser known tangential members of the the purple gang over the years He's very knowledgeable his analysis is is uh, yeah, you know, it's excellent Didn't seth forante do some time with some of these guys from that old crew? Yeah Seth was all seth was all over the federal system. So he was interacting with a lot of uh og's In the mob. Uh, I believe He was with maddie for a period of time Yeah, I think if you check if audience want to check our We have a couple of audio episodes with seth We've never done a video interview with him But we have a couple of audio episodes where he talks about doing time with some of those old lukezi guys Do you know, I don't know a lot about chris londonio Uh, who was the maid guy? I guess in charge of arranging The details of the meldisch hit Uh, I know there were some other people that try to take credit for it Uh with the government not just on the street Can you can you call that up a little bit? Do we do we know where londonio comes from and I didn't find too much before that on him in terms of like, you know, official Reports or or anything younger younger guy, right a guy in his very younger guy Yeah, so I think he's just kind of coming on the scene at this point Um, but you know, he gets arrested. They quickly find Phone calls that show these in the Bronx at night Uh, terence called well who's you know already in jail for shooting anzo stagno They question him because they show him talking to londonio. So they you know, they start tightening this noose around Around these guys pretty quickly after uh, you know, once the investigation gets going and when and when called well shoots stagno Mancuso behind bars starts losing his shit Yeah, because just so we know stagno is a soldier in the bananos and uh meldisch is an associate of the lukezis so Mikey mancuso orders meldisch Uh beaten for st for not staying away from the girl.   I don't know if he was a fish or I think he became a fish on 13 So it was around the same time. Yeah, but he's the boss of the of the bananos So so in this 2011 to 2013 you have meldisch For all intents and purposes at war with two different bosses Yeah And by the way, I I just pulled up and no because you asked about londino and um Yeah, I had a little thing in there and uh, I forget who the source One of them I talked to but described him as a lifetime loser. So he wasn't a real highly respected guy I know he was bragging Quite a bit. Yeah after the fact the interesting thing about Like you said this thing with the bananos and the lukezis is there's a very real case to be made that it was a banana driven hit Yeah outside the legal and what was found in the court of law. So Yeah, it's it's one of those cases that there there's a multitude of suspects and potential Can you take us can you take us through that that uh theory that it could have come from the bananos? Well, yeah, just that I mean Once you get down to the guys that are the shooters it kind of falls apart because they're lukezi based guys but you know, there there was some defense testimony kind of Trying to paint that. Hey Michael meldisch was at war with the bananos and they are a legitimate uh, you know Source of why he was murdered and it wasn't these two lukezi guys the lukezi's had nothing to do with it They had never nailed they had never nailed madonna and a murder before I don't think he'd ever been charged in a murder before To know and and I don't think was crea charged. I know he was imprisoned for a while I don't recall if there was a murder charge on there before I don't before but but with Uh, mancuso and some of the other banano guys That that isn't the case mancuso has two murders that he's been convicted of it's really a miracle that mikey mancuso At 68 years old Is still alive and kicking on the outside. He's been convicted of two murders. One was a manslaughter And one was a conspiracy But uh, saw the light of day On two separate occasions after being convicted convicted of murders But maddy madonna although he was a boss not to say that he hadn't have ordered murders But he wasn't someone that was known as a mad hatter As a guy that was just wanting to kill everybody Yeah, no, no Yeah Did you get even when he was at the purple gang? I had never saw him attributed to any of the violence That was mostly the drug aspect. And I think that's one of the reasons they wanted maddy madonna To help stabilize that family in the 2000s and 2010s after you had You know the vikamuso gas pipe era of the late 80s into the 90s You had a little a little uh, al diarco flip um, I know there was a handful of guys before maddy took the took the job, but Kind of like we talk about with joe legambi with philadelphia coming in after uh, joey and john stampa And nicky scarfo. We kind of yeah Uh, brought a level of respect back I think maddy madonna did the same thing for a while with the lukeases Yeah, yeah, I think that you know, and you know, like you said keeping in mind He wasn't made till he was 60 years old, so right So what um, you know if you had uh Kind of Sum up your feelings on the project itself Are you happy with how it turned out and where do you put this? You know for for people that might not know scott is very acclaimed and very prolific started off as the florida mob guy and did an amazing job with uh books on uh Scarcity mafia silent don read this read this book if you're if you're listening to the audio and you don't have the Visual the silent don the criminal underworld of uh, santo traficante Is an outstanding book. I highly recommend nobody nobody knows florida better than scott. I mean he is by far The number one expert on florida organized crime in the world and just like myself Sometimes you can you can get a little um Maybe feeling a little stagnated if you're just in one place reporting on one thing and and scott has started to uh Stretch his legs Over the last five ten years and writing about other areas. I love garden state gangland Um, it's another book. I recommend Thank you, and then you know, I I got I grabbed uh hit men Right. Well, you know, I think I got a advanced copy of it and I devoured that thing in like Two days. I just I spent like two straight days just reading and I loved it Thank you. Yeah, I so, you know, I wanted to write a new york book I wanted to write kind of something that in the 70s kind of the grittier era I don't know if I'll go back to new york right away I my next book is probably going to be jersey based and then I I still want to do an updated version of Cigar city mafia because that's been it'll be 20 years in in january of 24 And I've learned so much more over the years On tampa. So yeah, I don't know if I'll hit new york again, but but I really Wanted to do this because I thought it was a story that hadn't been told it hadn't really been written about And yeah, there's probably like five or six books you can do kind of tangential off of it But uh, you know, it's funny scott. I was talking with um I mentioned to a few people but the funny thing about mob writers like us is We're kind of like the mob in a way where people have their Territories that they write about but new york city is big enough that you know, it can accommodate More people so you have to ask permission to write about yeah, but you know, like if I wanted to do someone Detroit I'd have to go get the blessing of the dawn Well, I think Just just the lay of the land right now Is evolving more than ever in terms of the reporting aspect of the underworld You have a lot of the og's the guys that Were the pioneers the guys that are the deans the jerry could pace and jerry still does an amazing job I'm not saying that he's that he's that he's falling off or anything, but there's just not as many people and outlets reporting on this as there was I don't I'm not someone who attributes That to the fact that there isn't stuff out there to report And so that's a lot of people's Retort to that is all there's the reason there's not more coverage is because there isn't stuff there is But you know So a lot of the newsrooms right now in new york city Are being run by guys in their 20s or guys in their 30s That don't know the lay of the land so they don't know the assignments that they have to Or they should be Dispensing and then the tony de stuff tony de stephanos of the world and and Larry McShane's the world who do an amazing job at their outlets They have you know less Assignments to write on on the subject matter which gives more opportunity for people like us to kind of come in and We don't really have bosses per se. I mean you have an editor. I've had editors, but you can come in and kind of maybe you know take some of that territory or Take some ownership for for writing in that area just because there's a void Well, and that's the thing I look for I look for what stories haven't been told We don't need another gaudy book my god seriously give it or whaty or a whaty bulge or an al Capone book, but You know like when I did garden stake england that came out in 2015 There had never been an overarching history of the mob in new jersey I mean and there's only maybe a dozen books about jersey up to that point. I mean that's like When you know people think of jersey the sopranos it's just such a rich thing so The other thing too with hitman and some of the stuff I look for is what What are stories that interest me first of all that I want to write about but what hasn't been told what stories haven't been written Because there's a lot of mob books out there And you're starting to see more that are covering different stuff But um, you know up until that early batch of mob books. There's there's a lot of repetitive subject matter This is probably the last I mean, I know there's some jewish gangsters in here too But this is probably the garden state gangland. It's probably the last Italian mafia book I've read because these days to your point most of what I read these days is about the cartels Or all bikers or um, I'm just interested in other crime groups. Um, and that's probably the last, um Italian mafia book I read and it's really good. I highly recommend it to people. I gotta get my hands on I haven't Well, if you want to consider scott's an italian book, uh, I read that this year And I want to get my hands on the new, um Bill de alia book by matt burbeck. I'm gonna I'm gonna take a little look into that but yeah, they're not, uh and it just seems like A lot of stuff that's coming out is Is rehashing old stuff and um, I'm just I've I've I've had my share of Gambino's in the 80s or Winter hill gang in the 80s and 90s. Yeah, let me ask you guys going back to the the the murder You were saying is it that they're they're pinning it on the lukeases, but it seems like the bananas could have been responsible You guys well know that it's possible It could be both right crime families. Sometimes you have a mutual Um make a mutual decision to take someone out and then it's just a matter of logistics Who's going to do it? But it's possible that do you guys think it's possible that both signed off signed off on this? It I mean sure it's possible especially since you know madonna and mancus are also both Purple gang guys. Yeah new meldisch. So it's not like it's a No, it's a small sphere of Connections there. It's not not huge. So the the chances that I think it's a probably a pretty good chance that there was some kind of conversation or communication or or something Along those lines. Well the FBI Said in their some of their filings Or the the the u.s. Attorney that mancuso was taking a lot of meetings But but by the time between when he was named official boss in 13 and he walked out and into a halfway house in in late 18 uh, he was constantly Getting people coming to visit him and sending messages back to the street either through his um I know that uh, Frankie boy salerno was a guy that was doing it. He called like his his nephew So he's a purple gang guy Frankie salerno. I think that might be his dad Oh, his dad. Okay. Yeah, because Frankie boy because Frankie boy. I think is like my as closer to my age is mid mid 40s or mid to late 40s Okay, so yeah, this guy Would have been he was 22 and 73. So yeah, it's probably his father. Yeah, so um It's very plausible that there was communication between them and mancuso was Very very offended um by by what was going on in the street with with mike meldisch and then The situation within the luke z's as as scott said the relationship between madonna and and Meldisch had frayed quite a bit So what else you got work? What else you got? In the hopper right now scott anything you want to share in terms of Where people can find you or or stuff you got coming coming out soon? Yeah, so uh tampa mafia dot com is a link to my personal website and our tampa mafia tours Which will be starting up again in september if you're down in the tampa area. We we do uh Walking tours of ebore city the historic district of tampa and talk about the mob history um So those the tampa mafia dot com the easiest way you can find all my information on there And then um, i'm in a process of writing a proposal for my next book and i'll just throughout the subject matter I'm want to do a book on jerry katina. Oh awesome. Yeah, so And i'd really like to have you come back on and absolutely the um traficante We do a full we'll do a whole floor episode. I want to do yeah, because I think that's um a fascinating uh subject because um when you when you read scott's book and i'm talking about dc not bernstein uh the the um silent dawn For for a small bergata. I mean he is at the intersection of so many interesting things the global narcotics trade uh Kennedy hoffa right the kennedy's cast nation hoffa disappearance. Yeah, right castro The the stuff that was a 57 apalachian Meeting uh stuff with mars with marcello in new orleans and he was connected to the new york guys and it's just a really Donnie donnie brosco. Yeah, right. Donnie brosco right for right. It's just a for a smaller bergata It's just a fascinating story intersects with so many other interesting aspects of mafia history and just crime history Yeah, thanks. And like I said, that that's something that i'm going to also maybe work on on the side is updating Cigar city mafia with just So much new material, but yeah, it's it's a fascinating topic for sure scott I don't know why I've just this just popped in my head. Uh, but I'm Just uh another uh rabbit hole uh jump in here for second before before we before we leave Yeah Did you ever see the movie with ben at that ben athlec directed about the mob in tampa? I think it's called live by night. Yep So I've never watched it. Is it something I should watch? Yeah, it's a good movie. So the book's better the so denis lahane wrote the book live by night So I kind of met denis previously graduated sin college. I did and he lived here in in saint pete for a little while When he was doing a research for live by night I gave him a private tour of ebore the mob tour And I got a nice shout out in the book, which is cool and um So, you know, he was really trying hard to make it, you know, it's fictional but as accurate as possible and and for a movie Yeah, the movie is good. It kind of It's gotten forgot. It's gotten forgotten about I mean nobody talks about that movie Yeah, it's on netflix now, but it was a big budget and they've got some good actors in it For whatever reason i've never pulled the trigger on watching it. Yeah, it's good. It's I would say maybe a little long But um, I thought it was good the only the big bone I have to pick with it and it has nothing to do with the filmmakers because they were kind of Handcuffed is that it wasn't filmed in tampa. It wasn't filmed in ebore It was filmed in georgia because of the tax incentives that they have for making movies in georgia so It really Loose some of that authenticity because ebore is wholly unique and in its architecture and how it's set up um So I think that that kind and certainly for people in tampa. They've seen it.   There's like a a brook Running through i'm like i've never seen that in the on the east side of detroit before There ain't no there ain't no, uh, babbling brook of water Yeah, this is some some place where you can go, uh, uh collect your thoughts and and live in You know tranquil Peace it's like it's a it's a freaking third world country where where rick Grew up. There was no a body of water that you could go a canoeing on Behind his house and then conversely kill the irish men for guys like us I mean, I think that movie's entertaining, but you could tell that it was filmed in detroit All filmed in detroit. Yeah, it's pretty obvious to not cleveland not collect cleveland So when i'm watching it it's supposed to be cleavan. I'm like, wait a minute that that's clearly detroit So I feel you scott. I can I can see how that would you know, disrupt your enjoyment of the film Well scott, thank you so much for joining us. We've been trying we've been trying to book scott for like a year and we kept on getting our uh, you know schedules, uh, could never align and, uh Great interview great book go out and get it. Um You know Mikey mancuso He'll be a through line. I think through a lot of our content, uh over the next couple years because of his prominence in the new york underworld right now. This was you know, um A snapshot of Mikey mancuso at a earlier age and then Whatever possible role he played Uh in the downfall of Mikey melder. So that was um something that I was really eager to discuss And I thought we did a good job of calling that up and and scott, you know, nothing but respect on our end Thank you for joining us. Yeah, absolutely. Love love the show and uh, thanks for having me on guys. Appreciate it So, so please like subscribe share um original gangsters content We like giving it to you. We're going to keep bringing you that, you know, the best true crime content you can find online For scott dichi our guest for ben behind the glass and for jimmy the doctor Uh, I am scott bernstein. We'll see you next week on the full length og pod out


We're massively bullish on Bitcoin. We got a ton of Bitcoins and it maybe could go to a million. But that is 100X from here. That's really the edge of possibility. But DeFi, it could go to 400 billion. There's no reason that couldn't happen. So you have Bitcoin maximalists, you have people that are just passionate about ETH or whatever. We're investors. We invest in things that seem cheap and once they get too expensive, we sell them and buy something else that seems cheap. What is the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the words crypto trading? 24-7 monitoring, loads of different coins, charts, nonstop order placement, rapid changes, lots of time and sleepless nights. It's time to simplify it.  Automate your trades with TradeSanta platform. Just go to the website, tradesanta.com, register in a few simple steps and use trading bots to execute known trading strategies for you. Creating a bot takes you no more than five minutes. Yes, it's really easy. Look how it works. First, you connect your exchange using API keys and then you configure your bot using templates or from scratch. Just choose coins to trade, strategy, set target profit and you're ready to go. Turn the bot on and let the trading begin. User-friendly interface and instant user support from Santa's helpers allow you to solve any emerging issue. TradeSanta, automated trading, made simple. Hi everyone, I'm Giovanni. Welcome back to our show. Today I'm joined by Dan Morehead, founder and CEO of Pantera Capital. How are you doing, Dan? Great, thanks for having me on the show. Pantera Capital is among the oldest crypto investment firms and among the largest institutions owning cryptocurrency. It has over $500 million under management across three venture funds and four cryptocurrency funds. In 2018, Pantera reported a lifetime returns of over 10,000%. So Dan, can you tell us a bit about your background and how you got to found Pantera Capital? Yeah, I started out my career as the first asset-backed securities trader at Goldman Sachs. It's now a wild turn of events that I'm trading asset-backed tokens so the world comes full circle. I then went and spent years trading global macro with Julian Robertson at Tiger Management. And when Tiger wound down its investing for outside investors, I found a Pantera Capital. That was 17 years ago and we typically traded normal hedge funds, about a billion dollars of opportunistic global macro style hedge funds. And in that we're always looking for disruptions or opportunities that have very asymmetric risk reward profiles. There've been things like Russian privatization in the 90s and Argentine farmland and Tesla motors. Just every once in a while, a trade comes up. In 2011, my brother introduced me to Bitcoin and I thought about it, I thought it was really cool, thought it'd be interesting if it happened but I didn't actually do anything. And then a year or so later, Pete Berger Fortress and Mike Novigratz, friends from college in Goldman, asked what I thought of Bitcoin and I went in and we started talking about it and I essentially went in for a coffee and never left. I was like, this is the most fascinating trade I've ever seen. And since then, eight years or whatever, fully focused on Bitcoin, I think it is the second half of my career that I'll be spending focused on crypto. You have around $500 million worth of crypto under management. Can you tell us a bit about how Pantera Capital's portfolio is constructed? Yeah, first thing to think about is we do have three different token funds. The digital asset fund trades liquid tokens like Bitcoin, XRP. And then we also have funds that trade pre-auction ICOs and a Bitcoin fund. Combined, we have about 63% in Bitcoin when you combine all three funds. Since we started the fund management industry in the US, we have separate funds for each thing and now a lot of managers just kind of have one big fund that has everything in it together. Our view in the digital asset fund is dynamic. We're always increasing or decreasing our exposure to Bitcoin. During the first weeks of the crisis in March, we decided to massively increase our exposure to Bitcoin because Bitcoin typically performs very well in stressed markets. When the market's gapping down, Bitcoin does better than the smaller cap altcoins. But that typically lasts only about 31 days and then after four months, the correlation with the S&P and the dominance of Bitcoin normally fades. And we're actually seeing that now. Bitcoin peaked at 67% of the market in late March and it's been fading. We think Bitcoin's gonna go up a tremendous amount and we own, as I said, 63% of all of our crypto token holdings are Bitcoin. But we think the smaller cap tokens, the things smart contract oriented, DeFi oriented, they're gonna outperform Bitcoin.  Those things are gonna go up even further. So your bullish position on altcoins hasn't always been reflected in the performance of Pantera's funds. According to internal material revised by CoinDesk, all your altcoin-based hedge funds lost double digit in 2019 while the Bitcoin fund was up 10,000%. Can you comment on these numbers? Yeah, so when you're trading, you have to decide whether you're early or wrong when you have a position that isn't working. And we have been invested in a lot of DeFi protocols for many years and it wasn't working previously. The world does change very quickly in the last couple of months. The world's kind of woken up to DeFi and the capitals float into space. So the negative performance we saw last year has been flipped completely the opposite. Our digital asset funds up 123% this year. Bitcoin's up about 60. So our view is Bitcoin's gonna do very well but altcoins are gonna perform even better. In a June letter to investor, you stated that decentralized financial protocols are going to prove better investments than tokens merely used as means of payment and store of value. Why do you think so? Yeah, so we're very bullish on crypto because there are hundreds of use cases. When a technology is disruptive, they call it a category killer. Blockchain's a serial killer. It's gonna go through dozens and dozens of different industries, revolutionize so many different things. One of them is store wealth and digital gold that's awesome. But then there's also DeFi and so many other use cases. The way I would say it is, it's already done a great job as store wealth. Bitcoin has a $215 billion market cap. That's great, it's already achieved that well. Whereas the other use cases like DeFi are still just in their nascent state. DeFi has a market cap now of about $4 billion. If you're looking at Bitcoin at $215 or DeFi at $4 billion, it seems like DeFi is cheaper. It's a very huge important use case. And from here, like you said, our first fund is up 17,000%. That's awesome. I don't think you can go up 100X from there. It's just at that point you're getting to $20 trillion. That's getting very, very large relative to the world or money or all the different scales you could put on it. But DeFi, it could go to $400 billion. There's no reason that couldn't happen. So you have much more upside, I think, in these small coins, DeFi protocols. Okay, that's an interesting point of view, although it contradicts what the Bitcoin maximists say. For instance, Dan Held from Kraken was with us in a recent interview. He said that Bitcoin was the only valuable project in the crypto space and that all the other coins, including DeFi, didn't prove their utility yet.  It's terrible. It makes so many trade-offs to build Bitcoin that it is basically ineffective for almost anything else. And he also said that Bitcoin has the potential to go up to $1 million in value. So what's your counterargument to that? Oh, you know, I want to say we're massively bullish on Bitcoin. We have a ton of Bitcoins and it maybe could go to a million, but that is 100X from here. And to me, that's kind of, you know, that's really the edge of possibility because you're getting into a number that's 20 trillion and all money on earth is only 100 trillion, you know? So you're really getting to a huge thing at that point. So I think it's possible and it's not like I'm just saying it can't happen, but I think it's much more likely that the entire DeFi space goes up 100X over the next five years than Bitcoin. And again, it's not to take anything away from Bitcoin. Bitcoin's great, we own 63% of it, it's awesome. It's just these other protocols have much more upside because they just haven't been proven. Bitcoin's 11 years old, you know, it's done a lot. DeFi is basically just starting to happen. Right, and what about coins that are used as means of payments, cross-border payments, like for example, XRP? Are these projects worth Pantera's attention? I would say is there are some people in this industry, they're almost religious about their belief and it has to be just one token and one use case and one, you know, thing. And so you have Bitcoin maximalists, you have people that are just passionate about ETH or whatever, we're investors. We invest in things that seem cheap and once they get too expensive, we sell them and buy something else that seems cheap. And so we're investors in seed investors in Ripple. We love what they're doing. I agree, that's another use case we haven't talked about. Cross-border money movement's a huge issue. There's hundreds of millions of people that migrate around the world to earn money, to send back to their families. The 140 year old strongest player in the space, Western Union, they charge on average 8%. And for us in finance, you know, 800 basis points, whatever, it's just a number. For the migrant, that's a month's wages. They have to spend an entire month working to pay their remittance company. And with cryptocurrency, you can send it essentially free and essentially real time, but not everyone knows how to download BitcoinQT on their laptop and all that stuff. So they're willing to pay companies that help them do that. And we're invested in a dozen or so companies around the world that help migrants send money, you know, across borders. And you know, that's a great example of how blockchain is really coming of own in this crisis. The companies we're invested in have seen over 100% growth since the beginning of the pandemic, because it's hard to send money via traditional means now, you know, banks are closed, you know, all these things are becoming harder, whereas with crypto, you can send it, you know, natively on the internet. So if you had to mention three D5 projects that Pantera is betting on at the moment, what would those be and why? Oh, we're early investors in the Ampleforth and they're as well just kind of getting known and people are realizing that their stablecoin has some really cool properties. And so that's one we're very interested in. We love ZeroX as well, seed investors in that project and they are now as well taking off. So those are two of the projects that, you know, we've been invested in and trying to help for years and just kind of whatever reason it's all come together just recently. In your July letter to investors, you reply to one of the most common argument against cryptocurrency, which is their high volatility. You said that volatility is a good thing on asymmetric investments such as Bitcoin, which you compare with other investments you did in the past, such as Russia's privatization or Argentina's farmlands. So can you explain what do you mean by asymmetric investment and why volatility is good for such an investment? Yeah, so most investments that a typical investor does, you can kind of make or lose about the same amount of money. If you invest in a normal stock, it might go up 30%, but it might go down 30%. And so your upside and your downside are roughly the same. They're kind of in the same ballpark. Asymmetric bets are ones where your upside is just so much bigger factors or maybe orders of magnitude bigger than your downside. Cryptocurrency is the extreme example of that. But those other examples you mentioned, I went over to Russia in 1990 when they started privatizing and ultimately invested in Gazprom. The entire market cap of Russia was $12 billion. And as a global macro investor, I was like, hey, it's a super highly sophisticated, nuclear capable country valued at $12 billion. It just seems way too cheap, right? Yeah, it could have gone to zero, right? The whole market could have lost $12 billion in market cap, but it could have gone up to billion, or trillions of dollars of value. And that's ultimately what it did. So I'm often looking for trades like that. I was an early investor in Tesla Motors when it was around a billion or two. Market cap, if they're gonna revolutionize the entire transportation sector, yeah, you could lose a billion or two, but it could go up now 150 billion. So I'm always looking for trades like that and crypto is by far the most extreme of those. The perspective I would have is that cryptocurrencies are like options. I used to always say they're like a call option on the future payment rail to the world. And that is one way to think about it, that if you own something, that your worst case is you lose one time's your money, but if it actually works and it does become the payment rail to the world, you have tremendous upside. So you can make multiples, maybe orders of magnitude of your money. And so when you have something like that, you want volatility, you want the markets to be very volatile. The more recent perspective on it and how the option analog is relevant today is it's to some extent also a put option on paper money. Governments around the world are printing so much paper money, the value I think is gonna go down tremendously actually relative to things that can't be quantitatively eased like gold or Bitcoin. And again, there, if you own an option, you want volatility. And we've seen that over the years, Bitcoin has relative to normal asset classes, crazy volatility and that scares a lot of people away. They say, hey, I don't wanna invest in Bitcoin because it's too volatile. The reality is there's massive booms and bubbles and then there are busts. But when you net it all out, it's always going up. And in all but one of the years since Bitcoin was founded, the low for each calendar year has been higher than the previous lows. And yes, there have been several 90% bear markets in crypto that happens, but it always happens from a much higher high. So even these really bad bear markets and right now we're still down 50% from its highs in 2017, we're still way higher than we were previously. We're higher than we were a year ago and a kind of fun stat about Bitcoin is everyone that's held Bitcoin for three and a quarter years has made money. And I'm not aware of any other asset like that. You can't say that about gold or housing or stocks or whatever, you know, it's been very, very long bear markets and sometimes assets never recover their highs. Whereas in Bitcoin, they always historically at least has always recovered its high within three and a quarter years. So defending Bitcoin from those criticizing it for not producing cash flows, you said, quote, there is no cash flows in Euro, US dollar either. It is just a bilateral exchange rate. Euro, USD goes up or down based on the amount of people that want to use US dollars versus euros and vice versa. Still, I think that there is a major difference here because both Euro and the dollar are backed by the respective central banks, hence their fundamental value, while Bitcoin isn't backed by any institution. So what would be your response to this counter argument? Yeah, you get that argument a lot. And I had a fun conversation with one of my TigerCup friends who's a big TNT investor. And he said, you know, we don't trade Bitcoin because there's no cash flows. And I was like, well, the Euro against the dollar is not any cash flows to discount, but there's, you know, I've spent 30 years trading that and it's a huge industry. So you have to view it as either a bilateral exchange rate or a stored wealth or utility token. All three of those perspectives I think are useful. When you trade currencies like the Euro against the dollar, there's some data like current account deficits, interest rates, and that's what people use to determine whether they want to be long the Euro or short the Euro. That's the same with cryptocurrencies. There's tons of information on the number of transactions, the fees that are being paid to the transaction processors, the number of GitHub commits. You know, there's a ton of data. So it's actually quite similar. The other perspective is, you know, gold doesn't have any cash flows. It's just the inert elements. You know, it's been around for billions of years, but people store a ton of wealth in it because it's worked for 5,000 years. You know, Bitcoin's only worked for 11 years. So it's not, it doesn't have the same five millennia of history, but it has worked. And so, you know, every year, more and more people want to store their wealth in Bitcoin. And that's a way to view the value of Bitcoin. And if it's useful for people for storing wealth, they'll keep doing it. Right, still, gold might have zero cash flow like Bitcoin, but gold is used to make jewelry, for example. People are wearing it, while Bitcoin can't be used for these sort of things. No, you can do a lot of other cool things though. You can send money around the world. You can put property titles on Bitcoin. You can do a lot of cool things. And I'll come back to your first kernel of a thought there is that there's no intrinsic value. There is some intrinsic value to gold that you know, you can do dental fillings and you can do jewelry, but the vast majority of gold is held just purely for monetary reasons. This is not for other reasons. And you say that, you know, paper currencies are backed by the government. With the exception of being able to extinguish tax liabilities, there's no other thing that a currency can do, you know, that Bitcoin can't do. And so there isn't really any backing. There used to be, right? Of course, $10 bills used to be exchangeable into silver. You used to be able to convert any US currency into gold at $32 per ounce. Obviously, they printed so many pieces of paper they could no longer exchange pieces of paper for gold at $32 per ounce. And now it's, you know, $1,900 per ounce. And even the fun one is in the United States, we've debased the currency so much that the metal currencies are now worth much more as metal than they are as representative money. And in my lifetime, the silver colored coins used to be silver and now they're made out of really cheap metals. And even pennies used to be made out of copper, but they've printed so many of them that they're more valuable now to be melted down and just used to make wires or whatever one wants to do with copper. And when people talk about there's no intrinsic value, if you try and access the intrinsic value in a penny, it's a federal felony with five years in prison. So, you know, although you could say there's intrinsic value in money, you can't access it. And my best example of that would be the intrinsic value of a Jackson Pollock painting is 40 bucks. It's some canvas and some house paint, but it has a 70 year track record of being a good store of wealth. And so, Bitcoin's only has an 11 year track record, but there's no requirement that it has some kind of physical tangibility. If it is good at storing wealth, more people will use it. And that's basically why the price goes up. The more people that want to use it to do some things to our wealth or whatever it is they're doing, makes the price go up. Okay, and that leads to my following question. You have great confidence in DeFi projects and other altcoins. However, before those projects prove their value, it might take quite a while. And as your friend Mike Novogratz said in a recent panel in our YouTube show, the most big funds are likely to buy Bitcoin and not alts because alts right now do not pass the liquidity test. So how would you respond to this argument? Oh, I think, you know, Mike's right in the sense that investors always begin with Bitcoin and there are some that, you know, trade it around actively. But if you're viewing it like most people that this is a five to 10 year holding period, it's kind of like venture. You know, when you invest in a venture startup, you don't expect to be able to liquidate it tomorrow. You expect to hold it for a long time. And so I don't think that I'll dissuade investors from buying into these smaller projects. You know, our end investors are investing in our funds that invest in these projects and are willing to hold it, you know, typically for periods of years, we typically offer quarterly or, you know, daily liquidity on token funds, but so few people access that it's easy to hold things for multiple years. Okay, so let's switch topic to price prediction now. Analysts at Pantera Capital predicted that Bitcoin will hit $115,000 in August 2021 based their analysis on the stock to flow model.  You said that Bitcoin will hit $100,000 in two years. So can you explain the rationale behind your prediction and the discrepancy between your personal prediction and Pantera's prediction? Yeah, so there's two ways you can project into the future or what the price of crypto will be is one is to look at what's happened during all the previous haveings. And they've had big impacts on price. And if you take the stock to flow from the first two haveings and extrapolate it out to the third, it would imply a price of $115,000 dollars per Bitcoin in August of next year. And the logic on that is the first having had a massive impact. There's only 10 million Bitcoins outstanding. We were going from 50 every 10 minutes to 25. And so it was about 16% of the entire stock of Bitcoins were being pulled out of the market. That had a huge impact. The second having obviously the having bit was half as big but the stock was even bigger. So it was only a third as impactful in terms of the stock to flow. It was about 5% of the existing Bitcoins being removed from the supply. And that had one third the impact on price might have been a coincidence, but it's a nice coincidence. And then this one will be about a third as big as the prior one. So if it has that same ratio of an impact it would imply that Bitcoin would go up to $115,000 next August. That is also putting it back on its nine year logarithmic trend. And again, the past doesn't have to predict the future.  I'm just saying it's highly likely Bitcoins will rally a ton over the next few years. And those are decent benchmarks. And it's been on that pace so far in the three months since we predicted that. So, you know, I think Bitcoins, again, this is the back to the asymmetric question. I don't think it's a 50-50 shot whether Bitcoin's higher a year from now as it is today. So now I would like to ask you a personal question. How much of your net worth is in cryptocurrency compared to other traditional assets? Yeah, so it's a good question. I have the majority of my net worth in crypto and venture crypto because I spend all day doing this and I have very strong conviction that this is a great trade. Not even remotely saying that's what the average person should do because it's highly volatile, very speculative. Typical person should have a few percent of their portfolio in crypto. And then the second question is what else do I invest in? And like Mike Novogratz calls sometimes, talk about the Brazilian Real or whatever, I don't invest in anything other than crypto. Crypto is so captivating and has such better risk-reward characteristics than the S&P 500 or whatever else you could be trading that I haven't traded anything else for seven years. Okay, so you're basically saying that you don't own any traditional assets besides cryptocurrency? Yeah, the balance is essentially cash and real estate, things I don't have to think anything about. The only kind of active investments, the things I think about and I really consciously make are in crypto. Let's talk about macroeconomics now. So while some economists are predicting that it will take from 12 to 18 months for the US economy to recover from the COVID-19 crisis, you predicted it would take four years. So why do you predict such a pessimistic scenario and what implications will it have on the crypto industry in case it will actually play out? Yeah, I've been studying the global macroeconomics for 35 years and it seems very clear to me that this is gonna take at least four years to achieve the same level of GDP we had prior to the crisis. The only other world recession we've ever had is the global financial crisis in 2008-9. It's the first time in history that the entire world was in recession and to me that's a very small problem compared to what we're dealing with now. What we're doing now is just a much bigger and more complicated thing and we can go into that if you want but the punchline is that took three years to recover the high-end GDP and our estimate that you mentioned that it would take four years is from our April investor letter and if we really had to crunch the numbers I think it might take longer now given the policy responses and what's happening. So the notion that there's gonna be a V-shaped recovery and even some famous policy makers are talking about GDP being back to normal or achieving a new high even it was originally said this year or maybe next year I just unfortunately I can't even see how anyone could actually come up with that as an estimate. It looks like it's gonna take quite some time and then the implication for our industry is if it seems like in many countries like the United States the principal response to this invisible virus is to print more paper money and in the United States in June we printed more debt than we did in the first two centuries of our country's existence which is absolutely staggering and that amount of debt just creates a huge quantity of paper money and when you have more pieces of paper chasing the same assets like gold or Bitcoin it just obviously takes more pieces of paper to buy the same fixed quantity thing like gold or Bitcoin. And so if we're gonna keep doing it was 850 billion in June and the deficit now deficit in the United States is for this year is estimated to be larger than any of the deficits in the Great Depression and also larger than the average deficit during World War II obviously those were huge events and there's so many complicated things about this pandemic that I don't have any insight about but the one thing that seems fairly certain is it has to be putting pressure upward on the price of things like gold or Bitcoin where you can't make more of it. Okay so you're basically saying that a prolonged crisis is not positive for the crypto industry. I think it's almost certain to be very positive for the price of cryptocurrencies and again there's so much horrible stuff resulting from this pandemic that we're not touching on here but if we're just talking about the price of Bitcoin or the price of XRP or the price of E. It just seems like if you're printing literally trillions of dollars of more paper money it just takes more pieces of paper to buy anything of fixed quantity and we've seen you know, bounce of inflation you know, over the centuries. This one is not gonna show up in the price of goods and services because there's so much excess capacity of both labor and goods right now but it definitely will show up as inflation and the price of things. You're even seeing that obviously in the stock market the stock market is supposed to be reflecting the value of discounted cash flows right? We were talking about that earlier and I haven't checked it lately but Wall Street estimates were down 60% for corporate profits for this year and the stock market is almost at a new high. To me that is the clearest proof that there's a lot of money sloshing around the system and if there's just more pieces of paper to buy shares of say Hertz stock or the S&P in general it's the same with Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. That was awesome Dan, thanks for being with us today. Hey thank you very much, it's been a fun conversation. That was Dan Moorhead, CEO and founder at Pantera Capital. I'm your host Giovanni, if you like the interview hit the like button and subscribe to our channel. See you next time. Coin Telegraph, like, subscribe and hodl.


We're here with the O-key and who are you? I'm E-Line, we're the 12-key, okay. And these are the power banks you have right here? Yes, we have a very quick bank, we have four series power bank, the color for series and aluminum series and the power series and the pocket series. What is this one, for example? This one, power bank, we have for, the capacity is 20,000 capacity and with quick charge 3% or and USB-C it's power delivery. What is the red one? The orange one is quick charge 3.0 3.0? Yeah, quick charge. But the green one? The green one is air power, we call it smart charging. Smart charging, yeah. So that means automatically you can charge faster? Yeah. Because it's adjust automatically, is like quick charge from Qualcomm or is it different? Different. It's similar. This is Qualcomm, yeah. This is Qualcomm? This one is another one. Yeah, this one is a smart charge. And Okie is famous for quality, what is Okie? Yes, Okie is famous for quality. Okie is one of the best brand for mobile accessories. We do power banks, chargers, speakers and cables. Let's check some of your, these are multi chargers, all this line right here. And all this is available on Amazon, right? Almost, over by Amazon. In Germany, Italy, Spain, and also USA. The speaker. Let's look over here, you have some... Yeah, we also have some speaker. Speaker, right? Is it the same? Yes, the same. It's a different color. How do we grab this? Yeah. Just so we can look. So what is special about the speaker? The speaker has extra bass and the total output is 20 watts. So it's very loud? Yeah, the sound is very good. It's speaker only in the front or around? Around. All over. Oh, this is the front. The speaker in the front. The front, yeah. Very cool. How much should maybe this one cost? It's best on, I think... 50 euro or more? Yeah, 50 more. Around. And right here you have some cables. Yeah. Do you make quality cables or can you grab a cable? Yeah. Sure. If people buy Okie cable, they can trust it's a quality? Yeah, of course. You can see, this is our newest USB-C cable. So it's like a braided? Yeah, braided. And this is our newest MI for lightning cable. And I think on Amazon, maybe you sell this affordable, right? Good price, but quality. Yeah, but this is our newest product. It's still not our Madman, so maybe a month later. What is the difference between this and this? What is the difference? Which one? The other type seat right here. The black one is different design. Different design. Similar. Similar. Yeah. All right. What does Okie do in the future? You have more plans to do different kind of product? Yeah. Okie always produce and do solid products with the newest technology. We are combined with USB-C with power delivery. If there are any newest technology, we are using our products. And we have very best design. And we have very best design team. And how big is your factory? Is it in Shenzhen? Actually... Secret? Yeah. Actually, we have... You have partner factories, right? Yeah. We have a big group with over 2,000 people. 2,000? Yeah. So it's a very big factory. Not factory, we are office. Office? Yeah. But very big potential brand, right?  How many years, Okie? Our brand, I think almost, Okie established in 2010. And for Okie, this brand, we stocked for almost 5 years. 12? 5 years. 5 years. And the business is going up, right? Yeah, of course. And distributor can contact you and sell this all over the world. Yeah. To have quality, reliable quality, for good price. Yeah. And better than all the other, because it's a good price, right? Because many are cheaper, but then the quality may be break after one day. We have very good quality, but it's compared to a price. Ok.