It is the touch right here on Y254.  I'm Robert Osoro. I've got Ngarwa Kamuya here with the legal counsel for Kenya Holocaust Rugby Football Club. And now joining us for the first time is Wanjoy Gitea, who is the CEO of Peak Focus. And these two gentlemen are coming up. I've already come up with a sports marketing and consultancy company that is supposed to take Kenya sports to the future. Have I put that right Wanjoy? Absolutely. Very well put. I think, you know, as Ngarwa has said multiple times on this platform and really just in general about the importance of really sports functioning as a business. I think with what you are doing, I'm most proud of it because, you know, we've had the discussions and we're waiting for whether it be changes in policy, whether it be changes in, you know, as I've talked about how big football is in Tanzania. How big you see football being treated in other nations within Africa. West Africa. West Africa. South Africa. Exactly, you know. So what we're saying is, okay, we know that it's going to come to Kenya at some point, whether it be with FKF president or whether it be policy changes. So let's set ourselves up where, because really opportunities just luck and preparation. So let's prepare. We've built really solid connections based on what we do with our media company covering rugby and Kenyan sports or local sports raga. And so, you know, with those connections, with the athletes, with the coaches, with the businessmen, let's leverage on that and actually walk the walk. Ngarwa, you have been an avid sports fan since the time I met you and all that, but now you have decided to put it into action. Let's talk and talk, yes, but now it's action. And you started the sports management and consultancy and you called it to 70 degrees. Let's start from there. Why? Everybody went to 180 or 360. So the interesting thing is the backstory to it is, of course, Wanjui and I work on the three quarters podcast together. And the name three quarters came from a rugby terminology because remember our focus was on rugby or is still on rugby actually. And there's a time for the back three in rugby and they're normally referred to as the three quarters. And that's when we came up with the name because, I mean, other shows in the country were, you know, something that you could relate directly with sports. So when it came to, and from the jump, us guys were about running it like a business. It was not for fun. We were in it for business, we were in it. The main reason for the podcast was to commercialize sports in Kenya and to preach the message of commercializing sports in Kenya. So one of the things that we immediately knew that we had to do was that the podcast had to have its own intellectual property rights that had to be owned by somebody. And that somebody was a company. So we thought about names and Wanjui sat down and said look to 70 degrees is three quarters of a circle. And so came up the name to 70 degrees limited. So that's a group company. And to 70 degrees sports marketing and consultancy is one of the subsidiaries that is going to be focusing on now sports marketing and consultancy. I mean deal structuring. We've talked about commercialization a lot. Contract negotiations, policy changes if need be, athlete representation, the corporate, what is it, sponsorship sourcing. That's one arm of it or rather that's one arm of to 70 degrees. And then of course the other arm is focusing on the media angle because at the end of the day when you started three quarters podcast, the eventual goal was to have a fully fledged running local ESPN. A sports station in Kenya that focuses on sports in Kenya. So like he said, it's coming. We already seeing it in Tanzania. The good thing about Tanzania is the people who drive the economy are not the traditional businessmen like we see in Kenya. I won't mention which drive they come from but the traditional businessmen in Kenya only know how it's all about plots, it's all about building apartments, real estate. And even the ones who go into banking are very suave. But they don't think outside the box. Now that's a different thing in Tanzania. I think it's an Asian community that's the biggest in terms of business. And you see that's why Yanga and Simba have been acquired or bought by individuals. Wealthy billionaires who have bought these clubs and are running the operations of these clubs. I forget which channel it is but they have just announced that the Tanzanian Premier League, Azam, exactly Azam TV, the Tanzanian Premier League is going to be the first league in Africa where all the 306 matches are going to be broadcasted live. And by the way, it's not even in sports. Even I know I'm digressing but even in the music business, that's why Diamond is a big thing in Africa because they look at it from a business perspective, they think in their money. Knowing that Diamond is a talent, if I market him rightly, he can be able to bring me back the money. The biggest challenge or enjoy is we are young. Going against the old guys who don't want to leave this stage. They don't want to leave the table at all. They don't want to mentor anybody and all that. How do you plan to bridge that gap? Because for you, you're coming completely business, running this as a business and all that. And you've got these old guys all the time thinking of it as recreation and all that. One of the things we always talk about, whether it's culturally or just whatever it is, there's a very short term mentality that exists and we're very aware of that and know that it exists. For us, we know this is a long term plan. So even those old guys who are here, one don't want to be here forever. But also to be really honest, we also understand that you have to bridge those relationships. With what you're doing with the three quarters podcast, as much as we're there to watch and analyze the game, it's also arriving shoulders with the right people. The people who are actually making calls as far as investments. It's on the piggyback of that. I think that's a very interesting point. You know a lot of times when you think about investing, especially private equity, which is going to be really, really key for trying to do. It's usually in fintech and fintech really just being microfinancing or agriculture. So it's about an understanding that as the old guy falls off, we understand that there's a new breed of individuals who are coming in. We understand that investments have to go beyond just the microfinancing and the agriculture and the basics and has to evolve into the sports. So for us, we understand that it's time. We understand that the old guard won't be here forever, but even as they are here, it's building those bridges. And also I think with our sports marketing firm, one thing that's going to be a bit unique is we're also really big on utilizing data. Data analytics is one of the fastest growing industries in the world. You see it in Kenya. Kenya is a tech hub as far as Africa is concerned. People from West Africa come to Kenya to understand data and really grow in that sector. So us utilizing that, I think is also what's going to differentiate us a lot because we're not using technology, something that I don't think the old guards or the old individuals or those who have been in power are fully understanding of it. So when it's our time as we have a long districts in the next many years, what's going to also be unique to us is our use of data because you see it even in the States when you talk about analytics. You think about the job creations in that industry. So I think both factors are what's going to really separate us and really put us at a really unique position. And then let's break it down now for your role as a company and everything you want to do. And then you talked about policy change. That's one of the biggest things in Kenya. You usually have it like even go to our constitution, look at the lines that sports are coded there very small. It's only the sports act and all that. Policy change. These people in government or in parasattles and all that don't want to agree with the new trends and all that. How do you plan to counter that? You see, policy change is all about making it easy for the private investor to get involved. Government's work is to make an environment for the private person to invest in and that's where we are coming from. For example, one of the things we've been talking a lot, talking about a lot is can you imagine if we're able to pass a policy or cabinet paper that results in a policy change or a legislative change that says that companies that run sporting organizations are going to pay 15% in tax. All of a sudden everyone who has money invests there because they're going to be paying less taxes. They're going to be getting maximum withdrawal or maximum dividends because the tax obligations are less. That's the same thing that's what happened in the ICT sector. Like Wanjoya said, the ICT sector grew in Kenya because of the policies that were put in place for the private investor. It's the same thing that happened to the real estate sector. It was attractive policies to allow the private investor to get involved and that's what we are trying to do from a policy perspective is make it attractive for the person who has money not to go and build flats fast but to come and invest in Gormahia and take shares in Gormahia and run it as a business. So that's how we are looking at it. When it comes from an infrastructure perspective it's telling government that look guys if you pass this policy you have all the wealth individuals high net wealth individuals investing in sports and running in these organizations. The next thing you have is corporate Kenya is coming to partner with you guys. Now I always use a very simple example. You go to England the government does not own any stadium Wembley is owned by the FA Twickenham is owned by the RFU the government does not own any stadium if you go to the states I think is the best example Atlanta, Mercedes Benz Arena it's Mercedes Benz where the Super Bowl was this year Hardrock stadium in Florida Miami, it's Hardrock that owns it if you go to basketball the United Center Chicago Bulls is because of United Airlines was it United Airlines United Airlines the Toyota Center for Houston Rockets so it's these things are built of corporate the corporate America and America corporate England in England and that's what you want to bring to Kenya but you have to make it attractive for them to invest you make it you know as it is right now there's a very integral part of the laws that guys don't know about and that's section 151 of the Income Tax Act basically allowable deductions and it allows for anyone who sponsor sports it's an allowable deduction now it's very simple the problem is the governance we've talked about the people who are governing sports they are not big thinkers they think about it from a recreational perspective if I was in charge I go sit down in Bamburi I tell Bamburi look put up a stadium here it's gonna cost you what 500, 600 million shillings 15,000 sita not too much we are going to give you naming rights for the next 6, 7 years that broken down comes to about 100 million shillings a year for all intents and purposes that's 100 million shillings you have used to sponsor sports per year so that's an allowable deduction but on the flip side you have marketing for the next 7 years it's known as a Bamburi RFUEA grounds it's plastered Bamburi colors any coverage has to go if you look at the famous Alice Park for Invictus where the South Africa Alice Park has gone through 2 changes now they sold naming rights to Coca-Cola for a few years so it was called the Coca-Cola Park and now it's Emirates Emirates Airlines Arena in Johannesburg Soka City that hosted the World Cup 2010 final is actually called the FNB stadium first national bank the South African Big Bank that's how we need to be thinking but the only way kupret Kenya is going to get involved is if the environment is attractive and that's where we come in from a policy perspective so it's hopefully advising government telling government this is what we do to make it attractive you increase your tax base because it's an unexistent tax base can you imagine if Y254 grows or 270 degrees media grows and becomes a sports and ESPN in the number of people who are going to be hired very much premium in that you can buy sports at a higher level in Kenya at the moment not that easy I remember SuperSport had come in started very well was picking up and everything was good but the moment the federation came in and said now we need 2 teams and all that these guys cut off the contract for 16 teams there's no way we can add other 2 teams and all that and they went since then we have a major blackout so we have been a major blackout until I think we saw Wasito FC owner Rick Badoa channeling and I think 120 million for the basketball league and now they are being out there you are coming in because the climate outside here it's a tough climate I mean kind of echoing what Nasha said it really is it starts from the base there is an attitude towards media that transcends beyond what's happening in sports this idea that if you are working in media either because you couldn't excel in anything else so it has to be this cultural fundamental change about our approach in media I think with sports it's such a huge gap and willing to be filled but I think in addition to our perspective I think there has to be an understanding that this is going to take some time and it has to be a long term mentality this can be a short term thing and as we are saying of I personally feel like this it's permeated in the country that everything has to be short term we implement this media things the ones who may be the gatekeepers what can I get in the meanwhile in the short term so I can take what I need and leave and I think we need to change and I think that is really the fundamental issue that we are having so as we continue to grow as we continue to evolve and the beautiful thing about Tanzania is we are actually seeing it right next door you don't have to look to the UK you don't have to go to this is not rocket science exactly and there is this thing of course in Miss Africa about Tanzania and Kenya maybe being a bit better but then Tanzania is showing us we are catching up to you guys and arguably we have actually passed to you so now for the businessman for the politician for those who are responsible for creating policy as we try to plead our case I do think what's happening locally in Miss Africa is a blessing because it's showing that it's possible it's just going to take some time now talking about time Ngarwa is are you guys being over ambitious too ambitious but starting let's say small we started I think I read about the college basketball the NCA in the states and they started grooming from way back in high school through college and when they grew up to be culture icons people have actually followed them for us here we have that gap where you hear someone was in Maseno was in school and all that finishes high school that bridging now to the professional side becomes a problem guys disappear and all that is that where you are coming in from now you see the biggest thing that people do not talk about is that the reason why basketball in the states college basketball is big or college football is big is because there's an attraction at the end of the line when I finish college there's a chance of me going to the NBA when I finish college there's a chance of me going to the NFL and earning a living out of it there's a very high chance of me going there even if it's not that this guy we've just been watching last dance Michael Jordan documentary he's trainer Tim Grover Tim Grover had just finished his masters at the University of Illinois in sports science he was actually a basketball player he knew his career was ending at the end of college but immediately he got plugged into the Chicago Bulls and worked with Michael Jordan at the end of the line for lack of a better word now that's a problem in Kenya you were in high school you like playing rugby, you like playing football you like playing basketball but after you finish high school even for the guys who play for the university teams between 19 and 22 there's nothing much you're doing you have all the time to play this sport but when you finish a degree now you have to go work yet they're not paying me cooperative bank is offering me $50,000 per month it's a no brainer I'm not going to continue playing for allowance $4,000 per week I'm going to go to cooperative bank that's what now we are trying to change we are trying to make it an option that okay fine I have a business degree but I'm also good in sports and I can earn money through sports let me pursue this line we're trying to make it an option another big one there has got to be talent management usually a big one I've interacted with a few sports agents in this town and they can tell you it's like a war dealing with Kenyan sportsmen even telling them we need to represent you this is what we can do for you most of them don't understand it others understand it I think the welfare associations now they have got that understanding of what is happening talent management how key is it for your company oh it's everything because of course without talent there really is no fame to pick it back up what he said one of the things that from a young age you're being taught and the beauty of you think about sports it creates avenues where you can have much and days in companies you can have media companies so you look at for example naiki camps you find from a very young age you have these kids who are going to come for an entire summer they go there for 3 to 4 months and they get to actually train with some of the best it's in basketball one of the best point guards who either play from a college level or even NBA guys who come so from a young age you have these camps that exist where talent is being nacha at a very young age so for us it becomes a bit difficult when you are dealing with someone who starts playing rugby at 16 because at 16 you are already 6 to 7 years behind so as we continue to grow sports in the country and be able to have these opportunities so we can create camps and create these whether it be for a summer whether it be for a few weeks started at a very young age same thing happens in football in England no you have those camps that start very young so for us it's an understanding like I said we know we will pick up tomorrow we know it will take time and this is part of our growth strategy is how do we take the young people and creating the investment opportunities for the private sector to where we are able to see such things being implemented so by the time they are coming into sports whether it be in high school or post high school they have already been exposed to what it takes from a very very young age so their bodies have developed there is their understanding of marketing understanding of business and even for those who don't go into playing the actual sports there are opportunities to do other things there are opportunities for them to be coaches opportunities for them to be analysts that is actually one of the main things because everybody usually looks at front camera anybody out there looks at us and thinks that we are the only ones working here there are many people behind the scene that has got to be a big challenge ya it is but I mean as we said everything is it just has to take time even as we look at this I mean me being in the media space I can tell you it's not just what's happening last time it's the perfect example if you look to the credits of that documentary the amount of positions that have been created as far as jobs in the sector you create so much opportunity in a totally different sector but still relating to sports we know the opportunities are there the talent is there I don't think there has been a coach or someone who has come from outside of Kenya whether it be America or Europe or New Zealand and they always talk about how pure the talent is in Kenya how great the individuals are here in Kenya imagine if you are able to now channel opportunities it's good on the issue of agents just a perfect case of sports agency and athlete representation is again I think it's the easiest thing to refer to is the last dance they talked about Jordan's agent David Falk and how he he was the one who pushed Jordan to go and sign with Nike they had hoped to make 3 million dollars in 4 years and Nike made 126 million dollars in the first year arguably we can say that Nike is Nike because of Michael Jordan but the truth and the fact of the matter is Michael Jordan would never have gone to Nike had he not partnered with David Falk so it's also the understanding from a corporate perspective and understanding and saying this are the things that I think you should associate with seeking for endorsements is really being embraced by corporate Kenya but you see we don't even have to have the big corporates just how the small SM is if they give somebody 2 million shillings a year that's money in Kenya that's a lot of money so that's we're thinking a bit from a business perspective it's purely from business we need to make it an ecosystem in Kenya and like he has said you look at that 10 part documentary and think about the jobs it created yet it was focusing on one team one team Chicago Bulls one team created all that buzz can you imagine how many documentaries can you imagine you go to YouTube and look at this crappy videos I'm sorry I said that but they're very crappy videos about basketball or football and you see the guy has like 400,000 views and you're asking yourself how does this guy have 400,000 views but it's because sports is a business it has to sell it has to sell it's just joining as it is Y254 it is the touchline I'm Robert Osoro when Joey Gitya coming here for the first time is the founder and CEO of Peak Focus Visuals here in town and in Kenya and we are also Ngarwa Kamuya is the legal counsel for Kenya and also an avid sports fan who has now turned his passion into serious business you have put here I know you talked about it and I did not put it because I wanted to come as just a topic of its own has got to be data analytics and technology because we are one country where technology is big people have embraced it but the sports industry itself has not embraced technology how is that big for you I mean first we talk about analytics it's a huge convoluted thing and it's really not the word scares people analytics when you're watching when you're watching a sports game for example I was watching the highlights of the Milwaukee game the Bucks and they tell you things such as the team that has lost the first two games in each series has never won a championship just very interesting data that you're just collecting by looking at the historical performance so imagine you have someone who actually that's what they do it's a bit more when you talk about on the field performance but when you start being able to draw up such information and be able to provide such data those are things that we think is going to be key for us in our first sports marketing firm our analytics will probably be more not probably will be more on the field being able to understand technology where you can tell this particular player and I'll use basketball as a great example I can look at a basketball player and look at their historical performance on the field and say when they shoot on the wing in the third quarter at this point in time they're weak they're overly fatigued depending on the type of scheme you're running I know when they're going to be most effective or least effective and that's literally just being able to look at percentages playing the game and forming your gameplay around that I think the rockets have been really the pioneers and have been really big when you look at the state sports it's one industry that is pushed more by numbers performance is numbers look at baseball, football basketball, even getting to the draft it's all about number so that is the major thing trying to push it to people now exactly, we want that to have that be part of what you are doing and let people understand that also as much as sports is about the passion and caring about it there's a very mathematical aspect to it as well and that's what we're going to be using with our talent and being able to understand what's going to bring the best out of them as we manage and consult and actually not only even in American sports it's now trickle down to the predominantly English sports like for example in Dragby we were talking about it and how data analytics is able to break down affords performance and you will see that the forward has run 10 kilometers in a game but it's done 20% so then you're able to tell this forward ok you're running too much the rack is going to form here, here, here just be here so you bring down the guys running into 6 kilometers per game but his efficiency shoots to be on 20% to actually 90% so analytics is everywhere it's football the same thing you're told ok fine in the last half of the second half this guy tends to he curves it short more because he's weak he's tired, all that comes into play so eventually we'll have to get to it and technology as he's mentioned there's something this week that of course you'd expect that revenues would drop this year in leagues but it hasn't because the share price has gone up for many of those NBA teams because of the technology aspect because these games are able to be televised because I don't know 300 people are tuning in virtually because the advertising has gone to the next level because there are no funds so technology is important we've just seen the return to play protocols that the Ministry of Sports has developed even if we go back to Robert how will we know who would happen in the Kenyakap finals we don't have technology so we're not utilizing technology the other things you think about from a business perspective if you look historically at the broadcasting the broadcasting angle if you look historically in America ABC, CBS, NBC if you look in England it's BBC and in Kenya it should be the mother station, KBC KBC can be built to a level where they are able to generate their own income they don't have to wait for money from the government they can buy rights into this sports and they should be televising the sports right now as you speak so it's a whole ecosystem that has a lot of plugins we are likely to see thousands of jobs created what I was going to say actually our endgame is also this we are referencing countries that are miles ahead that have developed a talent and we understand that sometimes when you mention these topics it may sound like that's something that Kenya will never achieve that's unachievable exactly but the thing is let's take the necessary steps and everything else will work itself out I think as long as we are organizing the plan we will get there we are discussing about countries that may be seemingly far, far ahead we are not expecting to get there tomorrow we know it will take time it may sound like it's heavy but we will get there that's how we come to the end of this interview segment so that we can discuss more on the new company that they have formed it's called 270 Degrees that's Sports Management and Consultancy Farm we are there the legal council Kenya Heliquins and also 1J Gitea Founder and CEO Big Focused Visuals some Ropa Rosoro let's take a break we know your sports segment and this time we are focusing on baseball which is a big one in the United States actually one of the most expensive players one of the most paid players in the world is in baseball called Alex Rodriguez a big one there let's learn how that sport is played when we come back we will be talking with Samuel Manoanjuguna and it's all about the transfer the Lionel Messi Sagaite seems like it's not the last time you are seeing of this episode we have been doing as we also do a preview of the UF and Nations League


Russian commandos use newest anti-sniper robot in operation in Ukraine. Russian commando units involved in the operation in Ukraine have used the newest robotic sniper detector, Sosna-N, a source in the Defense Industrial Complex has told TASS. A batch of anti-sniper systems, Sosna-N, was purchased for special units and it has been successfully tested in the area of the military operation, the source said. The remote-controlled Sosna-N scans an area for optical devices such as sniper rifle scopes, binoculars or anti-tank missile targeting systems. Upon detecting such a device, it generates an acoustic signal and releases a special laser beam to impair it. This sophisticated detection system can identify a sniper within a range of 3 km, while its laser countermeasure has an effective range of up to 2 km. The device comes with a portable control pad weighing around 1.1 kg, offering easy maneuverability for soldiers in the field. The product was first demonstrated during the Army 2021 forum. The use of Sosna-N signals a new era in military operations. The advanced equipment is expected to significantly enhance the capabilities of special forces, giving them an edge in battlefield scenarios. As snipers pose a considerable threat during military operations, the ability to detect and neutralise them can change the dynamics of ground warfare. The Sosna-N allows for real-time detection and neutralisation of threats, thereby minimising the risk to the troops.


Good morning here in Hawaii afternoon or evening for those in other places. Thanks so much for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii and remember this is that time of the year where Think Tech looks for help support donations so that we can keep doing these difficult conversations to make good trouble and many of them in different areas. So, thank all of you who are willing and able to support in any way you can and motivated to do so. Okay, today we have with us Professor Vernelia Randall, Professor Emerita from the University of Dayton School of Law and one leading experts on race racism and the law. Ben Davis, who's now teaching at Washington and Lee School of Law, Professor Emeritus from and duty emeritus as the t-shirt indicates from University of Toledo School of Law. David Larson at Mitchell Hamlin School of Law and chair of the American Bar Association section of dispute resolution. And Jeff Portnoy, one of our leading Hawaii lawyers and scholars on pre-pressed First Amendment rights and a range of other civil issues and topics. Well, today with this panel of legal expertise. What's going on at the US Supreme Court? Any sense of what's happening there? Professor Randall, do you want to start us off? Yeah, I think what's going on in the Supreme Court has been building for decades. My oldest son was born in 71 before Roe versus Wade and I was a single mother, single parent and had to make the choice about whether to have an abortion or not. And at the time it was illegal and I can't say that influenced me not to have an abortion, but I didn't have one. Some of my friends do and I've always been pro-choice that ultimately the final decision has to be in the hands of the woman who was pregnant. But from Roe versus Wade, from that, there has not been a year, a decade where there has been not opposition, there have been cases that have been eating at the way and the Republicans have used their ability to get the Supreme Court justice on that will overturn it. I personally think the leak is about, and I like to hear other people's opinion, I think the leak is about trying to lock the conservative justices in. The liberal justices have no reason to leak that. I mean, because even with protests, the Supreme Court is not really an institution that is open to protests. And, but I think that by leaking it in, they sort of say, they sort of lock people, anything that comes out that's less fringeant now, people will think it's because of the leak and people, I think it was done to lock people in. What's other people's opinion? I was going to say that I agree with Professor Randall that this is really an example of an effectively executed political strategy. And it's really only one part of it. One part of it was to get people on the Supreme Court that would embrace and enforce very conservative views and shouldn't be any surprised that people are voting as we would think they would vote. And this is really in combination with with concerted efforts to restrict the vote in lots of jurisdictions. It's an overall strategy that unfortunately for people that believe in democracy, it appears to be succeeding. And I think it's really troubling. And at some point, I hope people are energized to realize that they have to get engaged, they have to vote, and they've got to make sure that we have majorities in the power making institutions. Well, I think we're, you know, people are conflating to issues, the abortion issue, which is now front and center. And going back 50 years, the justification for Roe versus Wade in the first place. And it has been 50 years of constitutional debate as to whether there's a constitutional right to privacy. And Roe versus Wade was just one of several cases that were decided by the court on the basis of a inferred constitutional right to privacy, which does not appear anywhere in the 14th amendment. And, you know, it's not only Roe versus Wade, but in a marriage, gay rights were all decided in favor of those rights by an implied right of privacy. And what this court, at least in the draft opinion, abortion is really the secondary issue. If you read the draft opinion, it's based upon the conservatives view that there is no federal constitutional right to privacy. And therefore, abortion, as well as several other things we're about ready to get reversed, are going to relate back to the states. And that's really the issue that I think is being lost. And I understand why, because how emotional abortion rights are. And really, people need to look beyond this because the next thing to fall is going to be gay rights. The next thing to fall is going to be cases dealing with privacy that the court has found in favor of privacy, although cutting away over the last couple of decades. And the Trumpers have now packed the court with six people who don't believe in the right of privacy that abortion is the first brick to fall. I read the opinion to lay the groundwork for turning back all kinds of so-called privacy rights to the state. But it's hard to tell people to look beyond abortion when 50% of the population is going to be directly affected by the abortion. I think that maybe, yeah, I agree with you on that point, but I don't know that I can say to people put privacy above abortion. No, no, and I want to make myself clear on this. Clearly abortion is the hot button issue, and rightfully so. And, you know, it's just going to hopefully rely on 16 or 18 states that are going to allow abortions and to encourage people to have abortions. The court is not going to criminalize abortion, but I think when people look beyond abortion, not that it's not the major issue. They need to be even more concerned, more distressed, more scared about individual liberties, because they're going to see them cut left and right over the next three to five years or longer with this court. And by the way, who might have leaked this? My vote is Clarence Thomas' wife. So, if I could just jump in. One of the things that I think is really quite amazing reading this is we go back to this discussion of what's tradition, right? You know, I found it amazing that the traditional arguments go back to the angle of sex in a U.S. history, pre the 19th Amendment, you know, in all the period that women didn't have a meaningful participation on the whole, some places exception on the whole and any of the legislative decision making that was done. And then the second part of it was that, well, technically you could argue it goes all the way to 1965 when the voting rights act, when black women were prior to that disenfranchised from voting. And so, you know, the idea of tradition, going back, for me, has been this old canard I've always heard of the anti-abortion movement about, because there's a lot of heavy stuff in that tradition that you can pull on to do absolutely devastating things. The other thing about the quote unquote not the word abortion not being in the Constitution, you know, I was thinking like, well, you know those folks in the 1800 18th century and those folks in the 19th century, all those guys, you know, I mean, you know, surprise, you know, they didn't think about it, you know. And of course, I wrote a piece really upset with all of this that I tried to get published somewhere and they declined to publish it because I guess I'm not doing conventional legal analysis here but I would just like to say to you that, given the fact that women were not participating from 1965 before, essentially, all women were not participating in any of that prior common law or other decision making or legislative decision making or constitutional decision making. Everything that he talks about prior to 1965 is suspect. The second thing is that on the divisions that have happened since row. Anybody else remember what happened after brown. Anybody else remember the segregated academies. Anybody else remember the civil rights movement and all the division on it. I mean if you're going to talk about division being an issue. You know you got you every time you have a right given to somebody, you're going to have that kind of the situation that that are and that kind of a rationalization I find a polling. Finally, I would just like to say is that the bottom line of this. It's about people who are poor.  Women who are rich will get their abortion. We're working for them and I don't think it's just women who are working class women, working class women won't have access to abortion. That's right. So this is just one more of these all ago kind of just get the hell with the four people. You know folks, I lived in France for 17 years alright I know what health care is.  I know it's amazing the backwardness that we have and so with all the. I've called this the forced pregnancy, a little draft. And I call this sanctimonious barbarity. What we're what you're watching and I don't care where you stand on it. If you know what real healthcare is. This is the sanctimonious. I heard an interesting observation, very interesting observation that most Americans support the right to choose when it's a case of rape incest or when my daughter becomes pregnant. But, but you know, the poll is deceiving, because at least in 26 states. The voting population doesn't support the right to an abortion. That's more than half the states and by the time it's over, it'll probably be two thirds one third and I point out the voting population. They have voted in wait, they have voted in legislators who are passing these very strict anti abortion law so when people say 70% of the people support abortion, it's totally misleading, because it's based upon population areas, like the East Coast and the West Coast, you have to go state by state but let me let me finish one more thought. And again I want to get away from abortion just for a second because I think that's, that's the hot button is what we're looking at now as a total shift in federalism versus states rights, we're going back to the 50s federalism became the dominant decision for federal courts that allowed all of these things to get passed. Back to states rights, where this present court is going to minimize, whether it's administrative rulings whether it's going to be privacy issues. They are going to minimize the right of the federal government to quote control our lives, and are going to say no these are issues to be decided by the states, and we know what happened in the middle 1800s. But that's what's happening with this court so federalism is going to be eaten away, and we're going back to states rights for the foreseeable future. This Madison's double security. Let me say this, this Madison's double security the rights of the people through separation of powers and federal is all right that was instructor, I'm sitting here in Charlottesville Virginia having visited his plantation. And the point that always gets missed in this is what if that structure does not protect your right. You can play the shell game of federalism or separation of power. But bottom line, if there's not the double security does not protect your right. What do you do. Justice Scalia told me I should go into the streets. When I when I raised it with him. And that what they want is that we go into the streets about these things, because if they don't protect you people will will respond. I'm sorry people will not respond they will not take this, and they'll, there will be women who will have abortions. People who will marry people that they love these things will happen, independent of whatever the superstructure tries to lay on them in this game. And, and you, they're just going to have to deal with it, because people will not. Sorry to say it like that, just bend over, because why there is that word liberty in the 14th amendment. It's there. It doesn't say like Trump's liberty. It says liberty. And that's a pretty ferocious idea for many, many, many people. I'll just say it like that. And I'll, by the way, all those people who vote for those laws and all that they're all great on it until it's their daughter.  And that's the problem with them is the idea of having a little more empathy for people beyond just a few people around them. Sorry, I'm sorry, excuse me. Yeah, I believe you know I, I agree with Jeffrey's alarm with the idea that this is the beginning of a path, and that we really need to be attentive and aware of that that that a lot of things could begin falling under the same principle approach. It's not the principle we like or not, it's one that's going to be embraced, but I also agree with Professor Randall was saying earlier about the importance of recognizing abortion as a separate issue and I, I always go back to one quote from Ginsburg. I'm going back to the Ferguson case that I think sums it up where she talks about that. When you start restricting the ability to choose. It really goes to women's struggle for equality. Yes, that women's ability to realize their full potential is intimately connected to their ability to control their reproductive lives. And I think that's something that we just can't lose sight of. Absolutely, it's central. The studies all show that for black women the legalization of abortion resulted in significant educational and employment results I mean it was at the same time that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and other things like that. And, but I don't, I think then that you're, I think that we have a society that is oppressive, and that turning in the streets is not going to change that oppression. I don't know what we'll do. I think that that the police will turn out with their bazookas that they got from them from the military with their cannons with their tanks, and that they will, it'll be done that it won't. I think the only thing that can turn, and I have no hope that this is the Democrats deciding to play tough, get rid of the filibuster pack the fucking, excuse me. You know, you know, and, and, and, and make some changes instead of incremental that the slow incremental change that comes from by design of the Constitution. We don't need slow incremental change now we need to go back immediately. It's not going to happen. It's all coming down to voting rights. I mean we have to be real. I mean, the only way things are going to get changed is through the ballot box, and then who knows. As I said, 26 states have elected legislators who have found the majority in their individual states to pass restrictive abortion rights from, you know, the obscene to, you know, something in the middle. And those people were all elected. The question is, is everybody eligible, given the opportunity to vote. This is not going to be changed, in my opinion, in the next 20 years by judicial decisions, and it's not going to happen in Congress. And it's not going to happen, because the states, the states have gerrymandered the census was was corrupted so that not all black brown native and indigenous people were counted. So, so we're underrepresented in the town. The, the, the, the states are German during the thing to wipe out black voices that current not that very much, which I'm not Florida has one or two black people, and they are changing to wipe that out. They're changing the voting so that yes, the state vote legislature voted in, but they are in, they are in power now in, and I don't see how that's going to change in the next 50 60 years, if at all, primarily because the Democrats won't fight. Democrats sit back, like, I laid a problem that Obama speak, I lay it at Obama speak, because instead of taking the Congress to court for refusal to have hearings on and protect his presidential right to appoint someone, he tried to play nice. And so now we end up with these different people. The Democrats aren't going to change. No, I don't agree. And I just wanted to say that when these harsher trigger laws go into place that this does come to being overturned.  Let us get real.  And the system is going to do it same machine that it's always done with regard to that. And you know, Jeff, you went to Selma, and you saw, you saw and learn that history.  And you know what, there are plenty of people in plenty of states who are fine with that. Not, and there are plenty of people who are not fine with it. Okay, I'm going to say that they think it's outrageous to think it's wrong. But unfortunately, there are plenty of people who don't care if it's not affecting them. And as long as they can fly their daughter to some place or go across the border to Cal to Canada. They don't care. This was part of an overall strategy. And, you know, it's been really well implemented and to go with to what Professor Randall was saying, I think part of the problem is that the Democrats have not been as effective as doing this is putting in place such a comprehensive strategy to go to each branch of government and to lay out exactly what they need to do to accomplish the goals, and then executing it. And whatever you think, the Republicans have been effective doing it and the Democrats have not. They haven't laid out that strategy and pushed it and stayed with it. And as a consequence, now we're losing control of all the legislatures. And we're seen as what Jeffrey said, majorities embracing restrictive legislation. Well, don't forget the dollars. We can all express our frustrations. But the question is, how can it be fixed frustration is not going to fix that going into the street is not going to fix it. It can only be fixed in two ways, political ballot box, or judicial. And the latter, and we are what revolution. I mean, don't take that off the table. People should be serious. If the plate if it's not sufficiently, you know, the American society is built on revolution. We should not take that off the table. We saw evidence of revolution on January 6. Do we really want to see it again. I was just saying that people are already in the streets. Okay, people are already in the streets. That's not going to wait, wait, I'm sorry about that. Already in the street. And I saw one Saturday, they're going to be in the streets all over this product. You know what, so what doesn't change anything. It either has to change politically or judicially and my thought is, I like to finish it is, it's not going to happen judicially with the way the federal courts are set up both at the district level, the circuit level, and now with the Supreme Court, the only way it's going to change. And I understand, Professor Randall about your, your, your upset view of the Democrats and I certainly think they've proven to be as dysfunctional as anybody can possibly be just looked at yesterday when they couldn't even get mansion to vote on something that had no chance of passing. So, yes, they're totally dysfunctional, but you know, politically, it's the only thing that's going to work. And whether it's a constitutional amendment, or some kind of a federal statute like the Civil Rights Act, it needs leadership. And right now, there isn't any, and the Republicans have taken the lead in November, if you think things are bad now, you wait till November 2, when they take over probably both branch of both the house and the Senate and you'll see how bad things will be. Everybody will have a revolution. I don't think it can work politically. I mean, I'm serious. I don't have the Democrats have the political will to do street fighting. No, they're compromises. They like to pull, they call themselves pulling people together from all sides, and they, they don't say, wait a minute, there is only one side on this. You're going to street fight on this. You'd have to show me that I don't see that as politically happening. And what I see happening is people what's happened for the last 50 years of my life. Get out to vote, get out to vote, get out to vote. And then the Democrats. Oh, what can we do. We got Manson, we got Sonayna, we got Biden, Biden was voted anti voted on some limiting abortion right. So, the thing is, is that's not a political, that's not a solution. I don't know what in our last minute, any final words. Where can I get, if Professor Reynolds correct, where can I get my gun. These days get pretty much anywhere. One thing I say, we're not encouraging that if people go to the streets. Yes, there will be people killed. Absolutely right. That's one other thing about the United States that seems really always to have. And when people go to the street, they get killed. Wait, wait, wait, system work. Wait, my hope is overreach. Just watch how overreach is going to go because these folks the thing about them is that when they got their power thing going. They always go to to too far. And I don't know what it's going to happen. Wait, wait, wait till June when the Supreme Court makes it even easier to get a gun and to carry it out on the street because that's next. My solution is not a, it's only a middle upper middle class solution. Because not everybody can do it.  You know what, if you got that as an ability to do seriously, go somewhere else. Thank you all. Another lively candid discussion. Sorry, we only have a half an hour we could probably keep going on this. Jeff, David, Ben, thanks so much for joining us. Watchers, listeners support think tech Hawaii comeback. We'll be back in a couple of weeks. With more difficult conversations to hopefully make some good trouble. Take care. Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.


Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS re-invent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel and our ecosystem of partners. And we are back here in Las Vegas where the weather is really nice by the way, like 65 and sunny, but talk about sunshine. This show for it's just emanating that from the AWS perspective. Almost 50,000 people here jammed in, are chock-full with a lot of interest and I think it really speaks highly of this excitement and the vibrancy of the AWS community. Here we are re-inventing along with Keith Townsend. I'm John Laws, we're now joined by Russ Curry, who's the VP of Enterprise Strategy at NetScout Systems. Russ, good to see you. Welcome to theCUBE. Thank you very much, it's a pleasure to be here. Great, first off, tell us a little bit about NetScout, about what you all do and why you're here. So NetScout Systems is a very established company we're very present in most of the Fortune 500 in terms of running their on-prem environment and built around looking at wire data as providing a unique perspective into the services that IT delivers. Recently we've started to expand our portfolio to become much more relevant to the cloud environment and this is our first trip into the AWS show actually, so it's a lot of fun to be here. Well, tell us about that shift then for you. I mean, what did you see that said, okay, this is the move that makes sense and then what have you had to do to, I wouldn't say catch up, but to get the kind of expertise in an area in which you weren't really playing with it before? It was very interesting because one of the things that we saw is that our customers were really moving to a hybrid environment. It was really the extension of a lot of their service to leverage what was available in terms of what AWS may provide them in terms of infrastructure as a server perhaps, a service perhaps, or virtual private cloud technologies and what they were really doing was migrating a lot of the data center front end to the cloud. So in turn, they wanted that same level of visibility that they had with us in the on-prem environment. So what we did is we disaggregated our system and started to provide a software solution that could migrate easily to the cloud, whether it be an on-prem implementation of a software defined network or a public implementation of AWS. So Russ, talk to me a little bit about that. I'm a traditional enterprise guy, and that scout goes back years with wire data from appliances to software to help me analyze data. I can take those tools, virtualize them, put them in the cloud, and now they just don't give me as much insight because I don't have control of the infrastructure. Talk to me about those early conversations as customers started to come with you guys for ass of capabilities. What were some of the initial pain points in the cloud? Well, I think that you hit on a very interesting point because you don't own that infrastructure any longer. So what can you really grab out of the cloud to be able to provide a visibility into these services? And with that also, they were becoming much more complicated, folks implementing microservices and starting to have great complexity in the environment that they're deploying there. So what they really wanted us to do is provide that same level of understanding like the key performance indicators that are associated with user experience. So are the users getting the expected service levels? Are they getting the responsiveness of the application that they expect? And if not, how do I track that down and identify where that problem exists? I moved up my complexity by maybe factors of 10 as I move into a hybrid environment. So let's talk about some of those complexities. In the traditional environment, if I could see transaction time slowing down, I can just turn and knob up on my infrastructure, buy a bigger server, buy a bigger switch, go with a different cabling aspect. Very, very prescriptive solutions. What are some of the insights you're bringing to customers to help them easily manage or less painfully manage those similar knobs in the cloud? What are those KPIs and what do they help help give insight into? Well, I think it's very interesting because that's one of the things that's a little bit easier to happen in the cloud in terms of the speed at which I can turn those knobs up. Now I can start to go ahead and dial up and provide more and more computes real easily. I have elastic computing capabilities that exist inside the cloud. But with that comes the question, do I have the controls to understand what I'm doing there and am I maybe spending too much in terms of putting that forward and turning up the volume, if you will, as you were saying. The aspect of being on the on-prem, the old environment was more that I had a plan for it. I had to keep in mind, I had to build for a future environment so I couldn't do it as quickly. So now the question is, is the business really getting what they're paying for as they move this forward? And their concern is that they lose that visibility into am I really getting the services I need when I start to turn this up in the cloud? And are those the questions they're bringing to you? I mean, so, I mean, because Keith was just talking about what you're taking to the community. So what's the community coming to you with then? And I mentioned costs, right? All of a sudden it's like, oh my gosh, I mean, we had this great resource, we didn't know it was going to cost this. So they've got to kind of get their arms around that a little bit too, don't they? Right. They want to contain the costs, they want to make sure that they're making some business decisions. And they want to increase the speed at which they can roll out new services. And they, as digital transformations really kind of driving the velocity of business to speeds that we never expected. Well, the velocity of IT really isn't keeping up with them. That's one of the challenges that they have. And a lot of that's a lack of visibility. If you're used to driving a car at night and you drive fast, you got this concept of out driving your lights where you're going a little bit faster than what you can see in front of you and you run the risk of maybe running into a turn or a stone wall or deer, whatever the case may be, right? A lot of our organizations are afraid of that happening to them. That they're going to be going so fast as they move themselves into these environments that they're going to hit and have a failure that's going to be catastrophic for them. So the idea that I don't have visibility is a real challenge. So on that model of cost, let's talk about NETScout's business model a little bit. Previous business model, I bought a box or software licenses and I own that. Cloud really doesn't lend itself to that buy software model and own it forever. How do I buy a hybrid IT solution now from NETScout? So today what we're doing is moving away, provide our solution in a bring your own license type of environment. So they buy license capabilities from us and then move it over in. But one of the unique things that we did with our implementation of a technology we call VSCO is we actually make the agent, that technology free to deploy on workloads and only consumes in our analytics engine in Genius One. So it can be freely distributed and only turned on where you need it when you want it. So it really provides a lot of flexibility for our customers in terms of having the same type of visibility in workflows regardless of being on-prem, private cloud or public cloud. And that's really the big advantage that they're seeing as they can move to a software model with us. So if, three days from now when you walk away from the show like this you said first time here. Yes. What do you want to get out of this? I mean, what's your goal in terms of when you walk out of here on Thursday or whatever it's okay, that was a good dive into the deep end. So I think for us it's really exposing ourselves to a new audience. A lot of the folks here aren't terribly familiar with who we are and what we do. Traditionally we spoke to the network guys and the network guys, they're starting to get displaced a little bit by, you look at VMware, the implementation of NSX and where that's going in terms of providing micro-segmentation. So networking is really being provided by the VMware admins oftentimes. And now with VMware on AWS, now you've got an extensible environment that allows you to have that same kind of compute environment all the way through in that level of control. So what I really want to do is end up talking to new audiences and having conversations that are a little bit different than, you know how much capacity do I have on a 10 gig link and what kind of applications they're running on. It's really about what kind of services am I delivering to my user community, what are my plans and how can I ensure success? Well from the looks of things you've got a few people to talk to Russ. I think so, there's a few. Russ Curry, joining us from NetScout Systems. Thanks for being with us. Good to see you on theCUBE. Thanks for spending time with us. Thank you very much. It was really a pleasure. Enjoyed it immensely. All right, good luck with the rest of the show. Back with more from re-event. We're in Las Vegas live. Here on theCUBE, back with more in just a bit.