Hello everyone, I'm here with Seattle City Council member Shama Sawant representing the third district of the city of Seattle She was elected back in 2013 and ever since she was elected as the first Socialist in I think over a hundred years to serve on Seattle City Council There's been constant efforts from the capitalist forces big business to take her down But in spite of all of the opposition, she's been incredibly successful She led the charge to pass the first in the nation minimum wage of $15 an hour She led the charge to pass the first in the nation ban on chemical weapons used for crowd control against Protesters a lot that we saw during the George Floyd protests and she did a lot of other things And now the latest effort after Amazon spent 1.5 million to take her down in 2019 and failed at that now the right in the city of Seattle Seattle's elites are trying to take her down with a recall effort With four charges in particular here to talk about that is counsel woman Shama Sawant counsel woman Thank you so much for coming on the program Thank you so much for having me Mike your case here is really interesting because you have you have not been deterred You've had nothing but non-stop opposition not just from the right but from the Democratic Party establishment as well You know the mayor of Seattle Jenny Durkin is a Democrat So you have fought tooth and nail against these attacks and you would think that that would kind of knock somebody off their course But you've been really successful And I think that you you've been one of the most effective members of city council throughout the country And I think that what happens here is a microcosm of what could happen for the broader national and even international socialist movement So can you talk a little about a bit about the opposition that you faced especially with regard to this latest? Obviously bogus recall effort. It's not the first time as I alluded to I also want to note that you have faced Dozens of ethics complaints all of which are bogus. You faced defamation lawsuits because you've referred to Killings by police as murder Che Taylor in particular in Seattle So talk about this latest effort to basically stop you from changing Seattle for the better as you correctly said Mike ever since we were first elected in 2013 and Of course we won the first election in 2015 and our second re-election in 2019 despite The concerted efforts by Amazon and big business and I would say also the city's democratic establishment To try and drive socialist out of City Hall They didn't succeed in the effort and now they're trying a do-over of the election result that did they did not like in 2019 because there is no reality to the charges that they have leveled against me and in fact It's actually concerning especially in the context of heightened Right populism and the far-right riots at the Capitol building in Washington, DC the emboldening of a certain current of right-wing the death threats against Left elected officials like AOC and Ilhan Omar and Cory Bush I've had that threat directed against me recently and the Seattle police have done virtually nothing to Address those threats to figure out where they're coming from and so the recall effort against us is happening in this context where The legitimacy of the capitalist system is at an all-time low young generations are looking for an alternative to this rotten system because Especially the pandemic but in general the system has exposed itself as completely incapable of addressing Even basic needs of humanity look at the crisis with vaccination the pandemic Let alone larger questions of the climate catastrophe for example And so in this context it is important from the ruling classes standpoint it's important that they try to attack the left but especially the socialist left and Most importantly their need is to attack any successful examples where movements have fought back and won I mean, it's bad enough if you have the courage and the audacity to fight back But if you win you should expect that the ruling class the democratic establishment big business the right wing Will come after you and these recall charges are happening in that context And I would say they are really an example of how they what they fear is and what they hate What the ruling class hates is not only the actual victories We have one which is making Seattle the first major city to win the $15 minimum wage We just won the historic Amazon tax on big businesses to fund social housing and a green new deal We have won a whole series of renters rights that were thought impossible to win before we were elected But what they fear most of all is not just these individual victories Which they would like to roll back of course And we know that they will attempt to roll back many of these if they succeed in the recall effort But what they fear most of all is the example that we have said that it is possible for movements and not just movement but the socialist movement to get organized Win its own office in the midst of political domination by the corporate ruling class Win victories despite the onslaught of their opposition and then spread that example throughout the nation $15 an hour Went nationwide and now the Biden administration is being forced to talk about it. That's what they fear the most the example of the emboldened meant of ordinary people of working-class people and also the concrete Vision that we have shown that you can fight if you get organized in Democratic movements where rank and file are empowered. That is how we won the tax Amazon victory And so it's it's crucial that the ruling class push back against this and for for them for for to defeat the future efforts of movements and I can say with a lot of confidence that if they succeed in this recall effort against us They will not stop there. They will go after the socialist left and the broader left And that's why everybody all of us have a stake in in defeating this recall Yeah, and I want to just point everyone to an article that you wrote for Jacob and this was published in I think November of last year It's titled Democrats and the right are attacking me and left movements everywhere I would highly encourage everyone to read this article because it she really goes through Extensively how they've been attacking her consistently And really with Seattle, it's really interesting because this is where Amazon is headquartered You have the mayor of Seattle. She took $350,000 from Amazon, I believe when she was elected in 2017 you see Amazon funding To the tune of over a million dollars a campaign against the socialist city council member I mean this entire city has been captured by big business and You have kind of like forced everyone to take their masks off to where even the Democratic Party Establishment in Seattle is attacking you and coming up to you and the only way that you've really managed to Hold that seat and hang on to power is by really utilizing the grassroots And I think that the way that we are successful here And we stop this effort is by standing in solidarity with you and activating the grassroots So can you tell us what we can do if we live in Seattle or somewhere else in the country? How do we stop this recall effort? What can we do to help this cause because we want to have that seat remain in your control because you're already doing So much and as you said like the $15 an hour minimum wage that Biden's administration is proposing This is kind of being modeled after what you all did in Seattle, which They don't they don't want to see this because success it kind of leads to like a domino effect We've seen this time and again We're seeing it with you know marijuana legalization So the last thing they want is for you to make more progress and then pressure other cities and even you know Congress to act. So how do we stop this? I Think you're right About what you said in terms of the domino effect even look at the what happened in the recent election Florida which decisively went for Donald Trump and that's a dangerous trend These are the same voters some of those same voters who also voted in the $15 minimum wage in that same election What that shows you is how what's at stake for us, you know in defeating this recall, but also The larger goal of why there's an urgency to build the left Is not only because there is a real potential with especially the younger generations getting politicized to win Real victories like Medicare for all and a green new deal. Although there will be uphill fights but it also the Florida example also shows that in reality So many millions of working people who might have voted for Trump are actually going to be open to A real working-class strategy of fight back And it's in the absence of any real left alternative that they end up becoming fodder for Donald Trump's reactionary ideology and so the best way really of stemming the increasing tide of right populism is for us to urgently build a strong left and a socialist left nationally And defeating the recall attempt here is part of that national effort And so regardless of where you live, whether it's in Seattle or somewhere outside Seattle Please go to shama solidarity dot org. That's my first name ks. H. A. M. A Solidarity dot org to get more information about our campaign or as you said grassroots campaign to defeat this recall attempt And if you live in Seattle, we absolutely want your help more directly right now because of the lockdown with phone banking and reaching people in a socially distanced way, but later we will need Door knocking and face-to-face effort again socially distanced way to keep make sure we're We're keeping everyone safe But nationally if you're not in Seattle, then we do need your efforts with fundraising So please send us your individual donations But also if you're able to host a fundraiser where you are Please contact our campaign and we will absolutely help you set it up And we'll have all of the links to that down in the description box down below as well as on the screen as well and and also I would say Please reach out to Left leaders labor leaders social movement leaders in your area and urge them to publicly endorse our solidarity campaign Because it's that kind of public solidarity that we are going to need to help Ordinary people in our district who are ultimately going to be voting on this recall For them to understand that the left is united on this and that an attack Again, trauma someone is not an attack against her personally But an attack on the left overall an attack on working people and that if the recall goes ahead It will be a setback for all of us. And so I'm really happy that important Leaders and people who have sacrificed themselves for decades like norm chomsky Have endorsed our campaign labor leaders like sarah nelson have endorsed our campaign DSA elected leaders like julia salazar in new york Mike connelly and boston and byron sick cholo pez and rosanna rodriguez in chicago who are chicago elected alderman They have all publicly pledged their support for our campaign. We need that kind of support from leaders nationwide Yeah, this is what solidarity looks like. I think that if you have Members of congress even with really large platforms such as members of the squad representative alexandria kaiser quartets if she were to come out and Use this platform to draw attention to this. It really could make wonders In terms of change. So this is really what solidarity is all about I wanted to pick your brain for a little bit because you've been so successful And I kind of saw your strategy as a mini version of the strategy that bernie sanders was running on like he always Stated that if he were to be elected president Unfortunately, that didn't happen But he would be the organizer in chief and he'd take the grassroots movement to the white house And that's basically what you've done at the city council level So I think that you being as effective as you have been you have a lot of insight into strategy So I wanted to ask you from an individual standpoint as you know, just people who are consumers of political news what we do To affect change should we sign up for organizations? Should we work for campaigns? And then I also want to pivot to at the congressional level because lately there's been a lot of talk about force to vote and members of the squad potentially withholding votes to to basically force a vote on medicare for all And this is over But I still think that it's an important conversation to have because we're all trying to figure out what the correct strategy is Going forward and how we actually can affect change And you being able to affect change using the grassroots to kind of feel you I think you have a lot of insight here. So can you kind of speak to that? Yes, I think that's a key question that people have to grapple with How is it that we were able to win these victories and is it true that you can only do this locally? You can't do this nationally. I think I would first of all reject that false dichotomy I think it's a question of strategy no matter whether you're talking about local Movements and local demands or nationally issues like medicare for all like a green new deal and ending fossil fuel use nationwide I think that we are at it. We are at a time when when a lot of Democrats also Use similar sounding movement language where they will also say i'm part of a movement They will occasionally also maybe show up at strike picket lines And I think we have to understand that there is a fundamental difference between What the democratic party offers and what we have accomplished in seattle as a socialist alternative elected office where As you were saying we we have specifically used A movement building approach for our office and that means a very specific thing And I really agree that bernie sanders would would have been You know it was that that is where people wanted to go And the fact that the democratic establishment fought him to the nail shows which side they are on really because he would have defeated Donald trump and Not only that he would have gone far far far the more by saying you know by as he said he would be an organizer in chief but what we have done here is Not just use the movement language in order to co-opt it and to Sort of deceptively use the grassroots in order to carry on the status quo of corporate politics While uttering some kind and compassionate words what we have done is in a concrete way Used our office to build social movements to build larger movements alongside rank and file labor non unionized workers socialist and community members And and that also goes into the question of force the vote and I'll come that come to that in a second But I just wanted to give a couple of concrete examples of what I mean when I say genuinely building movements so when I was first elected in 2013 and I took office in 2014 The democrats on the city council and and we should keep in mind not just the mayor of seattle That's democrat all the other eight council members are part of the democratic establishment I'm the lone socialist and so when I was elected the democrats on the city council made it very clear that in private conversations and also with their public statements often That we were not going to win the $15 minimum wage Which was the main demand that we ran our campaign on and that city hall ran on their terms And yet six months later we had won $15 an hour and those same council members had been forced to vote Yes, and big business that had fought fiercely against the $15 minimum wage were forced to back down Or at least on that demand And the way we did that was soon after I was elected I And myself and socialist alternative our organization many left labor unions together We launched the 15 now grassroots movement now It was not a coincidence that we won 15 we established 15 now and that we won $15 minimum wage 15 now and socialist alternative and rank and file left labor Organizers were the backbone of winning $15 an hour. And so what we did through the 15 now movement was we launched Action conferences citywide. We launched neighborhood action groups We activated ordinary people to come and fight for this explaining to them Why it is important that their involvement mattered and that it was not good It was not going to be possible for me alone to fight on this and win this that my real strength came from ordinary people marching on the streets In the 15 now rallies, but also coming to city hall bringing this was pre-covid remember so, you know, people could actually come And organize inside city hall. And so we really completely changed the dynamic in city hall It used to be this ivory tower Where pro big business council members would sit and have polite conversations without any workers And not in the interest of workers. We completely upended this kind of pro big business Ivory tower and we brought the people's voice into city hall It was the similar way in which we won all the renters rights We have won and also the amazon tax that we won last year I mean again It was no coincidence that we won the amazon tax in the take of the black lives matter movement last year because it was that movement that really Put pressure on the democratic establishment and they had to make all kinds of promises which they have since Walked back But on the amazon tax they were forced to Actually pass a city council amazon tax because a specific tactic that we used in our tax amazon movement Was to have the threat of a ballot initiative But not just a ballot initiative in name But a viable threat of a ballot initiative and we did that by collecting 30 000 signatures on the tax amazon ballot initiative 20 000 of which were collected at directly at the george flight protest at the rate of a thousand a day That gives you the tremendous support we had in the grass suits Especially among black and brown working people for this kind of tax Basically the idea that all these big businesses that are profited from this city Prosperity at the expense of workers need to pay at least a minimum tax in order for us to be able to afford Social housing and green new deal programs And I will mention that we used the same strategy in tax amazon movement that we did in 15 now Which is we launched a grassroots movement that was genuinely democratically organized We had action conferences each of which was attended by hundreds of community members labor union members non unionized workers and even progressive small business owners faith leaders And we debated all the important points of the movement in those action conferences openly and all members of the action conferences They voted on all those important points When was the last time the democratic party establishment invited you or me to a grassroots meeting where we got to vote on the things that affected us And so that that example of a democratically organized movement where even the informally Appointed movement leaders were held accountable to the rank and file of the movement. That's what's important. So I think that shows how concretely this is different From the movement type language that many now progressive democrats have started to use And I think the challenge really should be that it's not enough to say you are on the side of movements What are you actually doing to build those movements and on top of that? I think this Is also requires and this is how we are also fundamentally different than the democratic party is that We use our position not to you know on the one hand say we are on the side of working people then on the other hand be Giving a word to the establishment for all their betrayals. No, we don't do that We speak we use our office to speak openly about the betrayals that they carry out and force them We put pressure on them to then vote the right way because then when we build that movement using our seat It extracts a political price from them for voting the wrong way by betraying working people and I think that connects to the question on force the vote because I don't contrary to how it was presented. I don't think that the reluctance and ultimately Opposition to that kind of tactic where you know hold the democratic establishment including Nancy Pelosi publicly accountable on Medicare for all I don't think that the disagreement from The squad and some of the dsa leaders that it was a disagreement on individual tactics Now, obviously debates on tactics are completely fair and necessary on the left. Absolutely We should be doing that, but I don't think this was based on a tactical disagreement. I think this was based on a fundamental Disagreement of Then what we believe is a fundamental need which is to have head-on combat and bold challenge to the democratic establishment because we feel that this conflict is completely unavoidable if we hope to win Any kind of reforms like medicare for all let alone deeper change and I'll mention, you know, it's not as if Uh congress members like aoc don't understand what we're talking about I mean when she was asked why why vote for the trump impeachment if everybody's on your side already What she said and I agree with her. She said sometimes these votes create real political pressure that forces developments Sometimes we vote for the historical record to let future generations know we did everything we could I agree with every word of that. But what's missing here is Uh on the on the same congress members part the willingness to direct that same challenge to the edifice of the democratic establishment And corporate stalwarts like Nancy Pelosi, and I think that's where the real challenge lies We don't have to Really the test is not whether they are against donald trump They're obviously against donald trump and we all should be and we should be building the left to counter the rise of the right Wing and right populism But the only way we will be able to do that is if we also put our elective leaders to the Additional test which is the key test is are you willing to take on the conflict with the democratic establishment? Yeah, I think you're really speaking to one of the main grievances that a lot on the left have With members of the squad um and the way that I kind of gauge How to support someone running for congress because I bring out a lot of people running for congress is I look at their platform And if they check all the boxes they support medicare for all green new deal, you know a decriminalizing drug sex work All that then I think okay This is great But I think that all of this event uh the events leading up to force the vote and also before that as well It kind of led a lot on the left to reevaluate What we look for in a leader and it does require more than just being correct on the policies It really does require you to fundamentally challenge leadership and that's one thing that's lacking. I don't know Like I don't necessarily believe that this is a character flaw with members of the squad What I think is lacking and you can kind of like um help me out with this In your take is I think that what's lacking is that there is this Disconnect between members of congress and the grassroots and you know after you use the grassroots to get you elected You fundraise, you know using small dollar donations Once you get to congress the movement building is over like it seems as if like the movement has accomplished its goal We got this individual who agrees with us elected But then that's it and I think that what you really uh demonstrate is that you have to keep building the movement Like getting to congress and using the grassroots that's really only step one That's just the very beginning because if you don't keep that movement activated and grow it Then the amount of power that you have as a member of congress will be diminished Especially when you're facing, you know, these democratic party leaders who have a lot of institutional power Who have the media on their side and capitalist forces on their side So is that kind of like do you think that that describes the main issue because I would totally agree that My main criticism is that I want to see members of the squad really take on Democratic party leadership and it's a little bit frustrating because the only members of congress that actually do challenge Leadership seem to be the more conservative democrats um And usually they don't they don't get marginalized in the way that we fear the left would so Do you think like if you could give any advice to members of the squad? Given your experience, what do you think they would need to do to actually get us medicare for all? Like are they being Too savvy trying to play 8d chess with leadership and you know Butter up leadership and get them to not hate them Like what do you think they need to do because I think this is really important because The ultimate goal the reason why we're putting folks in congress is to actually get change So what would be the main thing that you would change? Or the main piece of advice that you give to aoc quarry bush and other members of the squad I think it's a first of all. I think it's Crucial that we are living in a time when in order to be In order to have Any kind of progressive credentials The times have changed enough and consciousness has advanced enough that Even democrats are having to check as you said check all the boxes and now the democratic party has a genuine elected representatives who consider themselves left or socialist and so I don't I don't question the Genuineness of the intent of many of these congress members who have been elected who are now called a squad. I think it was Really a positive step forward that so many of them have gotten elected through not taking any corporate money you know that that really the campaign especially of bernie sanders in 2016 Really set this, you know, it sort of set the watermark of what what actually constitutes even a basic idea of who's progressive Let alone who's on the left and so it is it is actually a step forward for our movements That it has put that that much pressure on politics in the united states that now Having to take only grassroots donations having to say publicly that I support medicare for all I support the green new deal is a sort of a Test for elected officials to get the support of the younger generation and of the left But I think what it shows also is that you cannot just stop there You also have as you said very it was spot on what you said, which is that As long as you have elected representatives, however genuine, let's not question their intentions as long as you have elected representatives Who believe that once they enter office They have to limit themselves to whatever is possible while not making the democratic establishment angry at them That is a dead end as long as you have elected representatives who think that that is the way to go It doesn't matter how well-intentioned they are so I don't think we should be having a debate on whether or not aoc is well-intentioned I truly believe she is well-intentioned As you said earlier Mike, this is a question of strategy for the left. So let's let's not make this about You know, I don't think the left should be engaging in debate about whether or not She is well-intentioned. The question is is she willing to do what it will take to win medicare for all? And that's why as I said Earlier the question is not to her the question is to ordinary people What are how are we going to get organized in order to make sure that those elected officials who run as progressives? Then go into office and don't think that this is about them Trying to curry favor with Nancy Pelosi or any even the middle layer of the democratic establishment And I think the other thing that you said actually is quite perceptive where you said that it seems to you That mostly the challenge that Nancy Pelosi gets such as it is comes from more conservative members The democratic party not from the left of the democratic party and how they seem to don't get marginalized Well, the reason the conservatives don't get marginalized is because They have the entire capitalist ruling class on their side. They are speaking for wall street Yes, they don't get marginalized and they are both precisely because they have the entire might of the billionaire class and the multimillionaires and the millionaires And also of the right wing on their side. So that poses a concrete question What are we our elected officials going to have on your side? And that's the question that we have answered so successfully in seattle where we went in crystal clear with zero illusions that somehow I myself with just my personal qualities And my determination and my courage and myself sacrifice. I am going to win over the democratic establishment No, I mean, obviously personal characteristics are truly important. I won't I won't minimize them but The most important thing that's different about us compared to the squad for example Is that we understood from day one that The the other politicians, you know, the democratic party politicians on the city council Have big business and the entire might of the ruling class on the other side Which means the only way we will be able to change this Completely ruthless status quo of balance of forces is we have to have forces on our side And where do those forces come from the actual movement ordinary people on the ground And so the only way we will win medicare for all for example Is if we have a similar strategy at the national level that we had in seattle to win $15 in our Amazon tax and all the renters rights victories. We have won where we understood that our role our entire role Is to unambiguously and unabashedly build the strength of movements and that That includes Calling out democrats when they betray so in other words Voting for Nancy Pelosi is a non-starter the left in congress, especially now because numerically They hold the balance of vote for them. They should not be voting for Nancy Pelosi They should be actually fighting building a real fight back against the democratic establishment But the only way they will be able to do it and not get marginalized is if they Understand that they have to concretely build movement. So in other words, we built a 15 now grassroots movement We built the tax amazon grassroots movement Similarly, we will need a medicare for all grassroots movement where aOC and the squad members are actually calling for national actions Calling for a march to washington calling for action conferences in multiple cities throughout the nation where ordinary people progressive labor unions many other left leaders can stand on their side and really Create a dynamic where far from being marginalized The left in congress could actually put serious pressure that Nancy Pelosi's establishment Not to mention the republican party would come to fear But that is not going to happen as long as we have the left No matter how genuine that is thinking that they have They have only so much room to maneuver and that they have to at the end of the day vote for Nancy Pelosi Look, this this is another form of lesser evilism and lesser evilism in my view is a permanent defensive posture for the left If we if we adopt lesser evilism then that's logic is endless No year no month no day will be the right time for you to go up against the establishment. So we have to Dispense with lesser evilism and understand That you know 70 million people voted for Donald Trump. How are we going to win them over? It is by building mass movements around demands that they will agree with many of them will agree with us on Medicare for all green new jobs ending renter debt, which is now becoming any, you know Huge crisis ending student debt and really building that grassroots effort Yeah, I think that really you are hitting on all the points and answering the questions that we've kind of been asking ourselves like for me, I've I've been Trying to wonder and like reassess my theory of change after Bernie Sanders lost the primary in 2020 and thinking like How do we ever get to this point? To where we we can get Medicare for all, you know I don't think we're gonna abolish capitalism anytime soon But at least reign it in a little bit more and move closer and closer Towards social democracy for now Um, and I think that really the question or the answer rather it's always been right in front of us It's not a matter of like well, how much more members of the squad do we need? To start, you know, flexing our muscle in congress. Do we need four more 10 more? It's a matter of we need uh Movements we need people to be activated and you know to me I think it's as little Or simple as really even organizing people In your own communities if we all do this then we could have a huge effect at the aggregate level It's just a matter of like trying to relearn Bad behaviors because I think that a lot of us myself included we've been kind of like hyper focused on electoral politics From the standpoint of like elections and politicians And I think it makes sense why we focused on that because we were this close to the white house So it's like when you have almost, you know, um the most amount of power in this system You know, it makes you feel as if a lot more things are are possible But you kind of have to go back to the drawing board once that you know is out of the question and think How do we actually get the change and it's going to come from, you know, the bottom up and not the top down And I think that if people really internalize that and they use that to guide themselves, you know going forward to fight for change Then I think everything will be um It's not going to be smooth to say the least, but I think that it'll make more sense Um to have that perspective I would say though that uh, I don't I don't believe that we were this close to Getting Bernie Sanders elected. I it's two things one Were there tens of millions of people absolutely electrified by his message of a political revolution against the billionaire class? Absolutely. Yes Was there a real opening for the left? Absolutely. Yes but Was it going to happen through the democratic party? No In fact, when he when bernie sanders Socialist alternative my organization and I we supported bernie sanders both in 2016 and and last year And I've spoken at his rallies, you know campaign rallies both times But when he was about to announce his candidacy in 2016 In a public forum On the climate change in new york city in manhattan I asked him publicly to run not as a democratic party candidate, but as an independent candidate And obviously he didn't agree and he ran as a democrat and I think it's a very simple Uh, calculus. It's very simple calculation here if you will run in a party that Whose establishment is aligned with the billionaire class? How can that be the party that will tolerate a campaign against the billionaire class? It is as simple as that It's not, uh, you know, we should we should uh, we should Understand that this is this is the essence of politics and this is something all working people can understand It is not something that's inaccessible to them. You don't have to have a phd to get a very simple fact It's a question of you know, what logic you're following And I think one of the main components of why We were able to do it differently and show a different example is because I am not part of a Party I'm not a member of a party that is opposed to the agenda that I am running on which is for the working class I am a part of socialist alternative which itself is you know, it's a it's a socialist organization that Is made up of rank and file activists who are all have democratic rights within the organization Who discuss and debate all important questions such as should we run a candidate? Who the candidate should be what the campaign platform should be it is not done by one? elite individual And furthermore socialist alternative itself is rooted in the wider social movement our members are Members of the working class. They are women. They are people of color.  I'm an economist and teacher by profession and I'm a member of the teachers union and so Uh, I think all of the questions that you raised, Mike They bring up the one of I think the most important point which is that in Seattle socialist alternative And me being part of socialist alternative has been the absolute backbone of everything We have been able to achieve because having an own my own organization with me an organization furthermore That is rooted in the working class Makes sure that I am never alone I may be one in on the dais with eight other democratic establishment people who may oppose me on Or attempt to oppose the working class agenda that we bring forward But what they are going up against is not just me. They're going up against socialist alternative and the working class That socialist alternative is rooted in and so really many of the Questions of organizing for medicare for all also bring up the question of our How can we do that with inside the democratic party in my view? We need a new party for the working class a party that is not organized as you said not organized top down But it's democratically organized where actually Not as an aspiration, but actually members of that party can hold their elected officials accountable But not only that a party that is rooted in social movements And it's not just simply an election running machine So I want to pick your brain on this a little bit Um, if if you have a little bit more time because I actually disagree I don't think that bernie sanders should have run outside of the democratic party Even if I wanted that to happen And even if he wouldn't have those institutional barriers that prevent change The problem is that and i've kind of gone back and forth on this over the last couple of years Is even though at the local level, I think it is possible to to subvert duverger's law How how can we do this? How do we actually get a third party to be viable given our majority and electoral system because I I was of the thinking and this was my reasoning in 2016 for supporting the green party is that You know, maybe it's the case that if we can get the greens to five percent They'll get national funding and that will kind of get the ball rolling But what I realize is that like the two-party duopoly in the united states It's almost like culturally ingrained And so I feel like people even leftists will check out if you just mention like a third party And I think the answer to that is electoral reform First because in order to have like a multi-party system or an alternative to What is basically I mean one party rule if we're talking about capitalism in the united states Is you have to have institutions that allow for proportional representation. So what do you say to Folks like me who think bernie was right to run of the democratic party Because that was the only way for him to actually Win but then when he's in as president you can change the institutions like how do we how do we subvert duverger's law? Is that possible? It wasn't actually a way to win because they didn't let him win, right? I mean sure what what what evidence would anybody use to Prove the hypothesis that running the to the democratic party is the only way you can win But you didn't win. So sure what's the evidence? But I would say that you know just starting from your original point about electoral reform Obviously, you know, there are pros and cons of different electoral systems and I wouldn't you know I don't want to start a debate on those but what I will say what I will offer is Now I my home country india has the kind of system that your electoral system that you're talking about proportional representation and What do we have in india? We don't have just two parties. We have multiple parties And yet what have we seen in the same period, you know in the same three four decade period What we have seen is not one of those parties actually fighting for the working class in fact Many of the parties that used to be somewhat left-leaning or progressive have actually moved to the right and the more Right-leaning parties have now become, you know, absolutely fundamentalist and somewhat Deadly to to even basic ideas like democracy as you're seeing with the BJP and the Modi regime, right? And so I don't know I don't actually believe that this is a you know This comes down to electoral reform in the sense that if we fix this or that electoral law Then we will be able to run left campaigns and get somebody to win as president in you know Somebody like Bernie Sanders. I don't actually believe that and going back to my account of how when I asked Bernie Sanders That was in November of 2014 I believe in Manhattan the day before the big people's climate march That I believe you should run as an independent because I don't believe that running inside a party that is Of the billionaire class will allow you to run a political revolution against the billionaire class And Bernie Sanders's response was something along the lines of well, I don't want to run an educational campaign You know, I don't want to run a campaign just for the sake of it. I want to win And my response to that is of course. Yes, absolutely. We want to win We've won three elections as an independent socialist in Seattle So absolutely we are about winning the left has to win especially with the ticking Clock of climate catastrophe. We have no time to mess around. We have to be very very serious about winning But the this is the point the democratic party Has proven what we socialist alternatives said in 2014 that they will never allow Bernie Sanders's working class agenda to become that party's agenda because that party is controlled by billionaire interests by fossil fuel lobby by all the powerful interests that are Completely hostile to even minor reforms let alone an actual socialist vision as an alternative to capitalism so the problem here is that we We will be stuck on in this hamster wheel Of running a left campaign inside the democratic party every four years now that you know now that Bernie Sanders has opened that road and and losing again and again As long as we think that this is about running that one, you know magic presidential campaign Once in some four year period and winning and again, maybe that changing everything I don't think it is going to work that way at the end of the day I think it is a question of seeing this to the lens of a longer term movement building approach and not Understanding that this one election is not going to be the result of anything I mean, I will also say this even if Bernie Sanders were to win I don't believe that it could win inside the democratic party But even if he were to win, do you think that they would just allow him to do all the things that he wants to do? Oh, not at all Exactly. So my point is that this temptation that I completely I'm completely compassionate to this idea But I'm what I'm trying to point out that it's it's a dead end Which is that it's understandable that people believe that well Building a new party from scratch. That's just seems utopian. That just seems too daunting Let's try something that seems less daunting. Which is do it to the democratic party I understand The temptation to go that route because something else seems more daunting my counter to that is actually Not only is the democratic running the democratic establishment route just as daunting because look at the kind of attacks and chicanery that they used To destroy Bernie Sanders campaign, which they absolutely did That they would do it that it would be just as daunting in fact Thinking working class agenda can succeed inside democratic party. That's utopian in my view So there's no avoiding a massive class struggle type of clash and I mean, I don't mean physical clash I mean a political clash between the haves and the have nots the people who Have any incentive to keep this rotten system intact, which is the billionaire class and their political cronies And the billions in this world who have every reason to urgently bring about a social shift There is no avoiding that political clash that political clash is going to happen one way or another and The sooner we understand that as long as we keep ourselves beholden to a party that is controlled not by us But by the billionaire class we that is going to run into a dead end. So it's never going to be I'm not trying to sell this idea that if it's going to be easy to build a new party No, I promise you when we do build that new party. I promise you that There will be all kinds of hostile elements who will become part of that party And then try to use that party's platform to further their own own careers So we should not expect and this is the main point. I'm trying to make we should never expect that it's ever going to be easy It is going to be hard The question is which is the right way to go which is the way that's going to yield us the most results And this is where I'll come, you know full circle to bernie sanders a response he said Something like I don't want to run an educational campaign and my response to that was Well, you are not going to be able to win inside the democratic establishment for the simple reason that they will not Let you win they will use every trick in the book to undermine you which is exactly what they did And on top of that you will send a wrong education of you know, it's won't even be the right kind of educational campaign Where the message, you know, the right kind of educational campaign is our campaigns where we say openly and honestly To Ordinary people hard, but this is the way to go we can we can do it It's not going to promise you that it's going to be a rosy path But this is the only way that will yield results The last point i'll say in in response to your very important question is that I think we should also stop um engaging in this what I feel is the False dichotomy between local and national politics any idea that the democratic establishment will let you do what you want for the working class locally is Is this spelled that idea is completely dispelled by Looking at what how how hard they're going after my office There as you said they have attacked us in every which way I have lost count of the number of lawsuits the number of attacks, you know based on so-called ethics That have Been done against us in 2019 They're democrat the progressive wing of the democratic establishment latina council members women They ran a candidate against me in the primary so the and now we are facing this recall attack So my point is that there is no Space where whether it's local or national that we will be able to build the left without an onslaught of attacks By the ruling class and now we are not going to win every battle we we take up It's a question of which direction you're heading though. That's the point I think you make a lot of really compelling points And you may be right that they would have never allowed bernie to win because i'm recalling the times when We saw the discussions of them using super delegates to basically steal the nomination away from him in the event He did get a plurality of pledge delegates, but not an outright majority Um, so I think that actually is a really compelling point My my only issue is that I've been kind of like trying to broaden out my analysis And I kind of look at both of the parties as many institutions within a larger system a capitalist system And so in the event let's say hypothetically speaking bernie sanders were to win the presidency if he did pursue Uh, a third party option. Don't you think that the same institutional mechanisms that would have kept him down? Um, if he ran within the democratic party would still exert that same pressure on him if he was Outside the democratic party because he'll still be working with democrats and republicans in congress So I'll have to caucus with them as an independent president So I'm just trying to figure out like in terms of long-term strategy. I kind of like my my Theory of change has kind of been a two pronged approach I think that you do have to try to take over the democratic party even if that might be almost impossible But I also think that third party alternatives are effective at putting pressure on the other parties because they can only get So out of step with their base until they start losing portions of that base to third parties So I think that you you know using both to your advantage When when it when it's effective is going to work But how how do we like I think this is kind of like speaking to a broader question um of capitalism in general and like is capitalism Allowing us to make the change at all and you've kind of answered that question in the sense that so long as you have movements Really you can you can do whatever so long as that movement is activated and working class people are are brought into this process and not kind of sidelined To your first point wouldn't if if bernie sanders had run as an independent and if he had won And I think that is a loaded point because the only way he could have won is if we had a completely different situation here In the united states with movements genuinely empowered on a national level like the small example that we have shown in seattle, but it would have to be 100 times over So as far as your question wouldn't wouldn't they have attacked him even if we wouldn't the democratic establishment have attacked him Even if he had run as an independent Absolutely, they would have and that's not a hypothetical question. Look at what they're doing in seattle Look at what the democratic establishment is doing in seattle. I am not a democrat I am a socialist alternative member. I ran independent of the democratic party. There's been no shortage of attacks I mean, as I said, I have lost count of the attacks. They have made against my office. So I don't think the point of difference between Whether you run as an independent or you run as a democratic party member Is about how much they will attack you what they are hostile to Is if you are genuinely wanting to fight for the working class Bernie Sanders is genuinely wanting to fight for the working class Which is why we supported him and yes, that is precisely why the democratic party Establishment will be utterly hostile to his agenda whether he ran as a democrat or as an independent That's not the question. The question is which is the way in which we can genuinely build The strength of the grassroots or the strength of movements of rank and file people of millions of young people Is it going to be within the democratic party? Or is it going to be to build to begin to build an independent force? And that's where I think the answer is latter not Turning everybody into this blind alley of the democratic party, which we know doesn't work because they are hostile to our agenda that is why we need our own organization and Bottom line again, the only way we have been able to do what we have done in seattle is because I am not alone I actually have a force with me, which is socialist alternative That's the kind of difference it can make if you have your own party standing with you because no individual However, extraordinarily gifted is going to be able to do this on their own So it doesn't matter how genuine and courageous Bernie Sanders is alone He is not able to achieve it and he's he's clear about that He said he talked about being an organizer in chief where where I disagree with him is Is that possible from inside the democratic party? And I don't believe that it will be and at the end of the day, I think you also made an important point Yourself, which is that as long as you are running inside the parties of capitalism You cannot build a force against capitalism. I mean, it's as simple as that and that is why what we need is a political organization that will be For and by the American working class That will be tied to the rank and file of the labor movement that can actually present a collective you know, so organized challenge to the might of the capitalist class and running candidates from this this kind of party will be part of the work that the party would do and in reality The most important point would be the party would be rooted in the working class and really build helping to build movement and I think again, these these questions are To be posed even to the squad even even though they've they've run as Democrats The question is what is stopping them from for example? Launching national days of action for medicare for all really building action conferences We but we organized tax amazon action conferences in Seattle They can organize medicare for all action conferences nationwide Do you do you do we believe that there will be any shortage of enthusiasm on the part of ordinary people for something like that? No medicare for all is one of the most popular demands in the united states including A huge proportion of republican voters and we are in the middle of the pandemic Everybody who is on the ground wants medicare for all So what's stopping the squad from doing it is not any? Suspicion that there's enough and that they may not be enough enthusiasm on the ground What's stopping them at the end of the day Is that they are afraid that if they did that they would be completely, you know, that that that would be the The sort of it's it's a call to arms. You know, it's a call to action to the working class That is completely against what the democratic establishment wants and it's not just Nancy Pelosi It's you know, it's it's that whole group of them And many of them who even call themselves progressive They are not going to agree with this so at the end of the day the only way that The squad could do this is if they had their own party with them and that is why I'm saying that we need a new party because You know the conservatives the corporate Politicians they have a very big force on their side, which is the capitalist class and the capitalist system itself What do we have on our side? Millions and tens of millions of people So unless we organize them in a serious way with a political organization that goes beyond just election years And is rooted in mass movements. We are not going to be able to achieve that Yeah, I think this is really fascinating and I've kind of been like Uh, I I've been both sides are on this issue Like I kind of like I think we should try both things at once Like I think that try to take over the democratic party try to form a new party put pressure Build up existing parties organize I think that at the end of the day even though there's there's like a lot of disagreement on the left And it is somewhat divisive and it's dividing a lot of members of the left One thing that I'm always willing to admit is that if we find a strategy that works Then I'm willing to abandon what I previously Knew, you know, I'll unlearn the bad habits And I think that you certainly are coming from a place of legitimacy Having been able to accomplish so much that didn't just change a lot of Seattle But it's having an impact on the national political discourse because again, we're kind of seeing the democratic party Copy your minimum wage model in Seattle, which you kind of spearheaded So it's it's really interesting and really thank you so much for coming on I've taken up way too much of your time But I think that this recall effort is it's really important that we fight this And let's just having you explain like what it takes to truly like get change Is is it's just perfect. So thank you so much Shama Can you tell us where we can find you online on twitter? Um and whatnot? Yes for the solidarity campaign against the recall attempt, please go to shama solidarity.org Which is my first name ksha ma solidarity.org You can find my Council office stuff, you know, really interesting stuff on twitter My twitter handle is cm shama that is cm and my first name And of course you can just google my name or you can google socialist alternative and find out more information Now really welcome anybody who's watching this if you have Questions about socialist alternative or how we have conducted our work in the city council What it means to be a socialist How we can win any of the victories that we're talking about the necessary things like medicare for all Please don't hesitate to reach out to me and I really appreciate you mike for asking all those really important questions Yeah, thank you so much for your time. It's nice to like have someone on who has done so much Like explain what it takes because I think that like I'm really I've kind of like I went into this like doom and gloom mode after 2020 and it felt like everything was hopeless But to really look to these examples of success in the united states I think it shows that not all hope is lost even in this late stage capitalist system like we can't affect change It's just a matter of like Doing the right thing and most importantly organizing, you know talking to people. So thank you so much councilwoman So on it's been an absolute pleasure Thank you so much mike and as you said yes, it does feel like doom and gloom and it's completely understandable I feel that way too and it's it's because there is a lot of You know, we see the system not working for us But I think the thing that really makes me Feel better when I'm having one of those doom and gloom moments is when I remind myself Of one simple logical reality, which is that if we don't fight then we are facing doom and gloom We have no option but to fight and I think that should really help us remember that It is worth fighting for this planet and humanity Is worth fighting for and what better what what better way there is to spend our life? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Thank you so much. Beautifully put Thank you so much. Mike really appreciate it