Okay, we are recording. Hi, I'll get started then. My name is James Pepper. I'm the chair of the Vermont Cannabis Control Board. Today is Wednesday, August 10, 2022, and I call this meeting to order. Let's see. A quick licensing update, I think you'll see on our register for this week that our licensing staff has started to shift their focus more fully to indoor cultivators, product manufacturers, wholesalers. We have a few product manufacturers that are literally in the last stage of review and will likely be ready for approval at our next meeting. It should be clear that we are still reviewing outdoor and mixed-tier cultivators, but the needs of the market require us to think about the entire supply chain and have businesses licensed at every license type. So what does this mean if you're an outdoor cultivator with a pending application and your plants are already in the ground? I'm going to talk just for a minute about the board's approach to enforcement while we work through our backlog of applications. The board's primary job is to move the legacy market into the legal market. The last thing that we want to do is to punish people that have actually taken us up on this proposition and applied for a license. So here's our thinking. If you have a pending application, if you're doing your best to work through the process of getting licensed, if you're operating within the scope of the license you're seeking, and if you're following all of our regulations around inventory tracking, pesticide usage, youth access, and everything else, then we're not going to punish you for the time it takes us to review your application. But if you're doing things that would not be permitted under your license, including things like selling product to the public, particularly to youth, trying to bring cannabis from an illegal grow into the legal market, moving cannabis across state lines, these are the things that will not only impact your ability to get a license from the board, they're also crimes and they are subject to law enforcement action. So the bottom line, if you have a pending application, you know, act and operate like you have a license and we will too. I wanted to talk quickly about retail. So on retail, I know the kind of one thing that's on everybody's mind, certainly everyone at the cannabis board is, are we going to be ready to issue retail licenses on October 1st? It's hard to say definitively one way or the other. There was certainly a time when I didn't think we were going to hit any of our deadlines that were in Act 164 and yet here we are with over 130 licensed businesses. I can say that we're going to move as quickly as we can. Retail is, of course, the most complicated license type that we have. These licenses involve cross-jurisdictional input from the CCB, fire safety, local cannabis boards if they exist, and even if they don't exist, you may need local approvals from select boards and development review boards. There are Act 250 issues. There are tax department issues. There are product registration issues. If you intend to sell vaping devices or vaping cartridges, you are subject to the Department of Liquor and Lottery jurisdiction. More fundamentally, from the CCB's perspective, we have to prioritize public safety above all else. It probably doesn't surprise anyone listening today that there has been a recent uptick in targeted organized thefts across the country aimed at cannabis retail operations. Just this past Monday, over $100,000 in product was stolen from a retailer in California. There's been a rash of coordinated burglaries up and down New England at retail locations earlier this year. Washington State reported over 80 break-ins at retail locations in the first four months of this year. We don't want to micromanage our licensees, but we have a public safety mandate, and we need to inspect and feel confident about your establishment before we can grant you a license on the retail side. This is the primary reason why we opened our application portal as soon as it was ready. We're not under any illusions that this process of reviewing applications can be completed quickly, and certainly not in the one month period between September and October that the legislature anticipated. Just get your retail applications in. We've seen a number of them come through. We will work with you to get you licensed, but please just understand that the words that are on the paper and a bill that was passed two years ago are just directive. They do not create an entitlement, and we want to live up to that expectation, that October 1st expectation, but we're not going to do so at the expense of our overarching mandate, which is to roll this market out safely, effectively, and equitably. On that last point, I'd like to review again our equity directive and how that impacts our priority of licensure when it comes to retail. We're going to do what we've done for every other license type. The backbone of our priority system is first in time to submit your application first to review. The layered onto that, though, is that social equity applicants get primary priority review, and economic empowerment applicants get secondary priority review. Once we've completed our initial review of these applications and either licensed them or sent out incomplete letters, we will move on to general applications in the order that they were received. We will always prioritize the needs of the market, meaning we might move a product manufacturer above a cultivator or perhaps a retailer above a wholesaler, but only if we decide that there are bottlenecks or gaps in the supply chain for it. Just a reminder also that none of our application portals for any of our license types are closed or are closing. We have the authority to close them, but A, we have no intention of doing that anytime soon, and B, we will give the industry plenty of notice if we decide we're going to move in that direction for any of our license types. There's a couple of concerns raised at our last meeting regarding the publishing of towns in which licensed cultivators are operating, or even just the business names of cultivators. I want to acknowledge this concern. This is a valuable crop, and the board doesn't want to facilitate theft, but fundamentally application materials and their licenses and licenses generally are matters of public interest and public concern. The default presumption is that a record is public unless there's a specific exemption that protects it from public inspection. But it's important for the sake of transparency and our own legitimacy that the public knows generally who the CCB is licensing. There is a public records exemption in our statutes that allows us to withhold information related to public safety. We feel that the best way to navigate these competing concerns is to publish the towns in which a licensee is operating. Not the physical address, you know, not the span number, just the town name. And the average town in Vermont is about 40 square miles an area. Our rules require that your grow be physically shielded from public view, either by a fence or a natural barrier. Of course, we have increased security requirements for cultivators, depending on the size of your grow. We feel like what we're doing strikes that balance between transparency and public safety. However, if we need to reevaluate this decision, we will. Just wanted to touch again on inventory tracking this week. We should have signed contracts with our inventory tracking vendors later this week. We are very close to having the very specific inventory tracking data points finalized for each license type. We're going to post these to our website once they're done so that, for instance, a cultivator or a product manufacturer or retailer can know exactly what data sets they need to be collecting about their inventory and how frequently they need to report that inventory that inventory information to the board. At some point this fall, you'll be able to submit this data directly through your CCB account. But until we have that functionality, we're going to be asking that you submit this data at regular intervals through an online form available on our website. We'll likely do a training on this. Hopefully at our next meeting, which actually isn't until August 31st. Medical program, just a reminder that we're holding two roundtable discussions to solicit input on the future of the medical program. The first one is today following this meeting at 2 o'clock. The next one is tomorrow evening at 6 p.m. We have some directed questions we'd like to ask, but we want these to be open-ended discussions about the future of the program. They are fully remote. The links to participate by video or phone are available on our website. So, other than that, Julian and Kyle, you had a chance to review the minutes from our meeting last Wednesday? Yep. Is there a motion to approve? No, moved. Is there a second? Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. All right. Moving on. Kyle, do you want to take over for a packaging discussion? Sure. Very quick. We don't have any categorical waivers to approve. This week, I think. Over the coming days, we'll probably look to approve some of the requests that have come in. And we've got a number of requests in right now. I also know that have been given a lot of packaging. You know, that even as child resistant, that doesn't have any plastic in it at all. I will say, like, there's been some questions that have been asked around vape carts, you know. Vape carts come in a host of different styles. If you're looking to use a vape part that has a very small amount of plastic within the chamber, so to speak, we don't need to see that. I really don't want to move in a direction where we allow vape carts that instead of a glass chamber, they have a plastic chamber, but some mouthpieces are ceramic, some are plastic, some are metal. There are some little components within that chamber that could be considered plastic. We don't need to see those. But I don't want folks to think that if they want to use the cheaper plastic vape cart alternative that that would also be allowed. So hopefully that was clear. If it's not, please let us know in the public comments and I can try to elaborate a little further. We are kind of before I get into more of the different biopolymers and actual like DRAM containers that may be useful and present in other markets for flower. I'm really looking at films and inserts and so on and so forth that might be necessary for the proper functioning of the market, especially as it relates to chocolates, edibles, that maintain shelf life in a different way than flower. There are some alternatives out there to your traditional plastic films. I know we've got requests in for like a PLA film. The problem with PLA, and I used to represent PLA interests in DC at one point in time, they don't break down under anaerobic or landfill conditions any differently than regular plastic. There are some woody biomass, meaning they come from trees. Alternatives out there, I'm encouraging folks to do some research and see what is out there. On the flip side, I'm really looking and digging into the polymers that can break down in a landfill without the need for an industrial compost facility. I've had a lot of great conversations, whether it's Michigan's head of composting or folks in DC or colleagues out West on how a lot of these resins that do compost are then put through a process that is confidential business information and turned into these actual drams that folks use and the thickness, even of a PHA or something like that can really determine how quickly these can compost under backyard composting conditions. So we have an issue with a whole lot of waivers. I don't want folks to think that we're not taking our waiver process seriously at the same time. We're really hoping that folks gravitate towards the glass alternatives that we've in the screw tops that we've put into the market. I recognize there's a portion of the LCA or the life cycle analysis that's apparent when it comes to shipping and all of the stuff around that. But if you really dig into the details, I don't want to get super wonky. I know that folks have given us feedback that sometimes I can be a little too technical when it comes to these issues. I don't want to bore anybody. When you look at the full life cycle, I'm still really confident in the direction we want to take the market and we really are encouraging our potential retailers and others to think about reuse and to think about our reuse programs because that's where we can really look to make a difference. So I'll get off my non-plastic soapbox and we can move on to the fun stuff. Yeah, I think just what I would add is we want to have a number of solutions for every product type. And so, you know, if people, you know, product manufacturers, retailers, whomever are seeing that we have gaps there, whether it's for concentrates or, you know, misters is one that I've heard about. If there is gaps in, you know, there's no product solution that you can think of or see on our website for a specific product type, that's the kind of stuff that we want to kind of prioritize. Yeah. And I will say like we are certainly aware of the way that concentrates are packaged. It's hard to work around plastic with how concentrates are typically packaged and, you know, we'll look to make some accommodations there.  We'll notify the folks to Salesforce that have requested that waiver and we should have some more soon. I've seen Mylar bags that are home compostable, which is really cool. But they haven't come through on our waiver request yet. So for folks out there that have given me this bag, person in particular, I don't know if she's listening, please put that through the waiver portal. I think, you know, that's something that should break down relatively easy under home composting conditions, but I don't have it in my waiver process at this moment. So, so yeah, that's all I got. Yeah. I think the point that I was trying to make probably ineliquently is that we're not going to prohibit a product that's otherwise, you know, allowed in our market strictly because there's a, there's no non-plastic packaging options for it. If there's a product that requires, because of the type of product it is, a little bit of plastic, then we're going to try and accommodate that. You know, we don't want to prohibit products that are allowed, otherwise allowed on this market. All right. Anything you wanted to add on this? No, thank you. And Kyle, for what it's worth, I don't find any of this boring. I'm slowly picking it up in a way that I should fully understand it. Yeah, it is a little boring. I'm just kidding. I'll acknowledge that. And, you know, I just want folks to know that we are taking this seriously, and I'm very pleased to see how serious some folks are taking it as well. And I see that coming through in a lot of, you know, the answers to questions that we're asking of folks in our waiver request. And, you know, it's a, I get a lot of questions from a lot of other states that are interested in this and they want to know how the process is going and what kind of accommodations we're making. And, you know, Vermont can be thought leaders in a lot of different spaces. You know, the more mature markets are looking to the newer markets to kind of see how they're fine tuning things after, you know, looking at what mature markets have done and something like this, if it takes off would be, would be pretty cool. But, you know, we know we're a little bit ahead of industry and we're trying to meet folks where we can. All right, Bryn. Thank you for the review of recommendations for licensure. Okay. Okay. So here is your register for this week. As usual, we'll start with the medical cannabis program. So here are the numbers from the last seven days. We've gotten about 90 applications received into the medical program. We've issued 41 patient cards in the last seven days and six caregiver applications and two dispensary employee cards. And the update on where we are in the queue is that the staff are currently processing applications received on and after the 14th of July. So we are still within that one month period for our review process. We'll move on to our license applications, which we cannot figure out how to numbers, which we can't figure out how to fit on one, on page with the heading here. We'll keep working on that. So this is your big massive numbers here. We have 18 applications for a license, actually 19 for your review this week. Numbers are down there. As the chair mentioned, we do have about 25 manufacturers of the different tiers in the queue. And a handful of them are quite close to being ready to appear before the board for your review. And we have, I think about eight wholesalers that are in the queue. And again, we have a couple of those that are nearly ready for the board to review. One thing I wanted to point out is that we have this dismissed status at the top of the page, which you'll notice there are a handful of people in the dismissed category. And I wanted to point out that our system does dismiss an applicant once they spend three months on incomplete status. So what that means is if we have reviewed your application and issued an incomplete letter to you and you remain in that incomplete status for three months or longer without getting any information back to the board, then that's when the system will automatically generate an email to you, send it to you that your application has been dismissed. And at this point, and I believe this goes out in the letter, all you need to do if your application is dismissed is to email the board, notify the board, that you would like your application to be reinstated and we will put you back in the queue. So as we're building our application portal, that is a functionality that we built in to ensure that there were not stale applications in the queue. But given that it's taking some folks longer to update their applications, all you need to do is to notify us that you don't want to be dismissed and we will get you right back. We will change your status and get you right back in the queue. I'm going to move on here to our recommendations for a license this week. So the list before you here of 19 applicants have all demonstrated compliance with the requirements for a license contained in board rule and in statute. So I will run through them. We start with, and one thing I'd like to point out is that the business name that's included in this chart is drawn directly from the application. So no amendments to these names, just what is included in the applicant's application. So we have BIG Intelligence Group, LLC, way high up there, LLC, the Mad Botanist, and all three of these. Actually, BIG is an indoor cultivator tier one, way high up there is mixed tier one small cultivator. The Mad Botanist, mixed tier one small cultivator. Cavalion, LC is a mixed tier one small cultivator. Stone leaf grow is a mixed tier two. Green state of mind is a mixed tier one. Mt. Gay Farms, mixed tier two. Flower first, outdoor tier five. Mend Botanical is an outdoor tier five. Island Craft Cannabis is a mixed tier one. Mythic Gardens is a mixed tier one. Brigham Hill Cultivation is an outdoor tier one. Cannabot Farms, outdoor tier one. Giving Tree Farm is a mixed tier one. Old School Weed Company is an outdoor tier two. Homegrown Health is an indoor tier two. Lucky Leaf is an outdoor tier four. Mad River Terps is an indoor tier one. And Rock Lake is applying for an indoor tier one. So we have four of our applicants that are up for licensure this week, our social equity applicants. So we have four social equity applicants pending board review this week. And we have one submission that is being recommended for social equity status. So that is submission number 769. And staff are recommending social equity status for this week. And we have four social equity applicants because they need the criteria for a social equity business applicant as defined in board rule. And we don't have any recommendations for social equity denial this week. That is your list. Any questions for Bryn? No. All right. Kyle, do you have the. Motion ready. I do. No, I move that the board accept each of the recommendations and licensing approval as presented to us by staff in this meeting. Second. All in favor. Hi. Hi. Hi. Okay, great. Thanks, Bryn. And why don't we move to public comment. We'll handle this the same way we always do. If you've joined us via the video link, please raise your virtual hand. If you'd like to make a comment, we will start with the folks that joined by the link. And then afterwards we'll join by a phone. You can we'll move to you. Okay. Love is first. Can you, can you guys hear me? Hello. Hello. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, thanks. I just wanted to first thank you all for coming off for interviews that has been really nice to you guys. I wanted to touch on the packaging a little bit because and James, this is something we talked about the other day in our interview. When you order glass jars in a box, it comes individually bubble wrapped on each container. So I, and like I said to you, I do appreciate the challenge of trying to move away from plastic, but I think there are some other considerations there that are worth looking at because each one of those glow, the jars is individually bubble wrapped and they are inside another box that is also bubble wrapped to protect that entire box. And I, I think that's just, and I appreciated Kyle's comments about the, the full life cycle of the product because I think that's really important to consider, but I think another thing that's important to consider is the transportation costs of how, how much extra does it cost in gas to transport that many jars, you know, and I just wanted to throw that out at you guys. And also James, I really, I was listening to your comment about robberies that have been going on and personally, I am worried about that. You said, I believe someone said 80 robberies in the first four months out in Washington and that's, that's a significant number really I believe in a fairly small state. And I, I'm wondering, you know, without the use of firearms, which we've also spoken about how dispensary owners and growers are to protect their products and their employees and all of that. And I'm going to, I'm going to leave it right there. Thank you guys. Thanks, Caleb. Tree frog farms. Hey guys, how are you guys doing today? Good. So hearing this, the incomplete status for the three months, then where that goes to being dismissed had a few kind of concerns about that. I didn't know, will that end up slowing down the process of the application. And I guess one of my concerns is I got my incomplete couple of weeks ago turned in the three forms that I was missing stayed in incomplete status was lucky enough to talk to Dominique there. She's wonderful. Got that stuff in. Got it on Alexis's desk. I think the week before last. And when I check on it, it still says incomplete. So I didn't know if there, I didn't, I didn't know if, if it stood in incomplete because action hadn't, hadn't been taken on some, on maybe your side, but I've submitted stuff. If there's a risk of that going into, you know, the disregarded portion. I just, it kind of seems a little risky. And I was wondering, is there so for submitting incomplete notices, would it be easier to have like a resubmission email box that goes out with your incomplete status so that when people email, they're missing components, it doesn't go under regular application questions and all that. So that maybe it's easier for you guys to pick apart and see that rather than going through 250 emails of just regular questions to look for resubmitted information. Thank you. Thanks for the comment. Edo. Hi everybody, hopefully having a great day. Just some more thoughts about the sharing of. Licensee locations. So I didn't see the point of that until now. So I guess. Chair Pepper was saying that the point of that is transparency. So how about as a compromise, we say the names of licensees and their county instead of the town. You know, indoor growers can't necessarily shield the view from the road in some cases. And I realized that to the average person, they might not realize it, but to somebody who's looking to steal from an indoor grow, there's definitely some, some pretty clear telltale signs that there's a commercial grow inside of a building. So that's my thought, maybe just a compromise there of, of switching the county because that feels like it still accomplishes the goal of transparency. Thank you. I guess. Thanks to you. Jeffrey. Hey, good afternoon, everybody. Can you hear me? Okay. We can hear you. Thanks, James. Hope everyone's having a good day. I want to extend congratulations to those that were approved today. And to the board, you guys seem to be. Licensing and approving our DJ members on a near weekly basis, which is very exciting. So we want to. I don't acknowledge. What James had mentioned at the start of the meeting about the. The public information. We recognize that this is common practice in other states. And those who are listening, just also recognize that this is public information out there on the secretary of state's website when you, you know, want to register a legal entity. This is information that's out there. We appreciate the concern and we do hear some of that within our member base. I do want to raise quickly a concern that is becoming raised amongst not just VGA members, but also growers and manufacturers throughout the state that we're hearing. So I want to raise very quickly in act 158, which was bill S188, this past legislative session. A couple of license types received new allowances, expanded allowances. The whole sale or license type received the new allowance to buy and sell seeds and living starts or living plants, all of these. And the cultivator license type. So all tiers also now have that allowance as well. So that's the result of 158. We welcome and we actually VGA and BCC, the college that have been, we probably spent more time in committee than any other group in the state pushing for these allowances for cultivators. So we welcome that cultivators. Appreciate that. The concern is with the wholesaler. They now have a plant allotment with no parameters. We are concerned about the wholesaler having pretty much a limitless plants for this new allowance. And we urge the agency, you guys to consider introducing fair parameters here. We think that it risks devalued the cultivation license. And again, we just want to press that we welcome the wholesalers having this allowance, but we do not think it's appropriate for them to have limitless plants and we urge you and we actually linear jurisdiction to prescribe a sensible regulation here. So thanks for your time. Thanks Jeffrey. Ben. Good afternoon. Can you guys hear me? Yeah, we can hear you. Hey, well, I think there's always everything you guys are doing. I didn't want to kind of echo Tito's comments there about security. Personally, I've already started getting mail to where my business is registered as Jeffrey just mentioned, you know, anybody who knows what they're doing can take a, you know, a company name and find out the principal owners and where it's registered. So in another kind of similar vein, I'd like to recommend maybe if possible, just listing the registered licensee and their name. And that way, you know, there's multiple names and you might not be able to get it down to the exact address. I've already been getting mail from people and I don't know who else could have that address. Secondly, I'd like to, I'm not sure if there's any sort of talks going on with kind of trying to connect law enforcement with the growers and the licensees directly, you know, to just kind of have a good relationship there and some sort of program to have quick response in case something does go awry in this high risk industry. Thanks so much and have a great day. Thanks, Ben. I don't see any other hands up. You know, if you do have a public comment, feel free to raise your virtual hand, but we'll move on to people that may have joined by phone. If you have joined by phone and would like to comment, you can hit star six to unmute yourself. Nellie, are you seeing any microphones on mute? I am not to know. Okay. Well, then I will close the public comment window. Thank you for those comments. We really do try and, you know, listen to the concerns and kind of fine tune our practices. So, you know, just keep them coming. We do have a portal on our website to submit public comments as well. And anything else? Julie, Kyle wanted to mention. Not really on the packaging stuff like, look, this is the direction that the board is going. I recognize some folks aren't necessarily happy with that, but this is the direction that we're going. And, you know, it's interesting to me because as consumers in the United States and across the world, like we're so used to plastic being the most convenient alternative that folks make so many excuses to continue to use it. But back to the point of how things are shipped, all of that is taken into an LCA. You really got to go back to how those boilers that are making certain materials are even, you know, what energy sources they're being used from, all the way through transportation costs, all the way to end use and reusability. All of that is taken into account in an LCA. And when you look at the full picture, I'm still very confident in the direction that we're going. I understand that the way certain things are packaged might feel a little, you know, off-putting, but you need to, you need to recognize that things go way further back, that paper trail is, goes all the way back to how these industrial processes function. And so I just want folks to remember that, you know, obviously scope three emissions and the greenhouse gases from something weighing more than your, you know, your Mylar alternative factors into the equation, but it is certainly not the full picture. It is one of the hardest things to actually measure when it comes to an LCA because there's so many little things like that that are really, really hard to measure. So we're not backing down off of this. I appreciate the concerns, but this is the direction that we're going. So work with us. We're trying to work with you, but I just want to make that quite crystal clear at this point in time. This is the direction that we're going. I'll get back off my non-plastic soapbox. No, I appreciate it. I mean, you know, there are very few, there's a lot of just copying and pasting that people do in adult youth states and they kind of just blindly sleepwalk into the future, honestly, and we're trying to do something slightly different here in Vermont. And I know it's not easy and we'll get there. You know, if we need to kind of make accommodations, like we have been, we will, but it's just, it's going to be a process. And I will say, like, you know, when I can find the bandwidth and we can come up for air, I want to talk to our industrial composters to figure out how we can be supportive in trying to get bioplastics back into the conversation at industrial compost facilities. But the fact of the matter is right now, these aren't breaking down on a timescale that fits their suitability for getting that product back to everybody to use as compost. And you know, a lot of the same arguments that I hear, not just in this meeting, but all the time is what I heard from the American fuel and petrochemical manufacturers when I was trying to advocate for bioplastics in DC and, you know, they're the same arguments and they're valid arguments. But we need to think about things in a different way. And everybody that I talk to recognizes this importance, they want to move away from plastic. It's just uncomfortable and it's not the most cost efficient. It's not the easiest to shift. I recognize that. But if you dig back through the details and you look at who's funding these LCA's, I think, you know, I'm very confident in the direction that we've chosen to go. That doesn't mean that we won't work, make accommodations as we talked to make sure the market is moving in a direction that's where there's a place for each individual product, but it's the direction that we're moving. I just want to make that clear. Pepper, I wonder if you would just revisit what you talked about at the beginning of the meeting, because there are quite a few people that joined just after you said that you talked about compliance and, you know, the piece about sort of cultivators and others and the difference between how we're going to kind of focus on compliance for those versus retailers. Would you just maybe, because there were just, I just watched a number of people join right after that and I think that that is something that folks are really interested in knowing. Sure. Yeah. I mean, the question presents itself where there's a, you know, cultivator with a pending application that maybe already has their plants in the grounds, you know, and our thinking on those types of situations is if you have a pending application, if you're doing your best to actually get licensed, if you're kind of making best efforts to kind of respond to our incomplete letters, respond to board inquiries, you're operating within the scope of the license that you're seeking.  You know, but if you're operating within the scope of the license, you're seeking and you're following the board rules around inventory tracking, pesticide usage, youth access, and all of the regulations that apply to that license type, then you're doing everything that we want you to and we're going to use our enforcement discretion to let you continue to operate until we get you that license. You know, however, on the flip side, if you're operating outside of the scope of your license, if you're selling product to the public, if you're dispensing the youth, if you're trying to invert, illegally invert cannabis into a legal market from an illegal grow or if you're crossing state lines with cannabis, those are the things that we can't look the other way. We really need to, I mean, we can't, those are the types of activities where we will get in trouble if we issue you a license. And there are also crimes. I mean, I gotta say that that's also criminal behavior and law enforcement is, if they know about it, they're not going to tolerate it. So I guess the bottom line that I said before is if you have a pending application, act like you have that license in your hands, act like you're subject to our regulations, and we will as well. And just to clarify, Chair Pepper, did you mean, is that included people who've got pending retail applications or are we handling that slightly different? We can't allow retailers to retail. I'm talking about cultivators that maybe from the legacy market that maybe have genetics, maybe have plants in the ground already. And again, those kind of caveats apply to that situation, not to the other license sites. Thank you. I know that there's a lot of folks who've asked those questions. Yeah. Say one more thing, completely unrelated to this. So I've been seeing a lot of, I've gotten a lot of questions. I've seen some things around pesticides and the ability to get out of pesticide testing, depending on certain certifications from a third party that you may be looking to work with. We did put language that would allow that under a certain set of circumstances into our regulations. But a part of that is us having those conversations with those third party certifiers to make sure we're comfortable with that third party. Before we waive any testing for pesticides, for any cultivator. And to date, we haven't had substantive conversations where we've gotten to the point where we are comfortable granting that specific authority to any third party certifier. There's a number of them out there, from just trying to get off the ground to establish in this industry that I think could probably do a good job. But we haven't granted that authority to any third party. So just be, if you have questions about pesticide testing, please reach out to our compliance team before you make any assumptions as to whether or not your product needs to be tested. Because I can tell you right now, everything needs to be tested for everything. We haven't made any of those decisions as it relates to third parties and what they can do in lieu of testing. We'll get there, but we haven't circled back to that specific process yet with the umpteen other processes we're trying to install right now. All right. Well, I think William will adjourn this meeting and we'll see folks back here hopefully at two o'clock, 15 minutes for our medical, first of our two medical roundtables. Thank you all.


I'm Darren Cofer. I'm a researcher at Collins Aerospace. My talk today is called Steal This Drone and provides an overview of the High Assurance Cyber Military Systems Program. So you may recognize the talk title as a take on Abby Hoffman's book called Steal This Book, published in 1971. Hoffman was a 60s year counter-cultural activist and a member of the Chicago Seven. The book was intended as a guide for how to fight against the establishment and included advice on organizing protests, building bombs, setting up pirate radio stations, things like that. Just as all of life has moved online in the intervening 50 years, there's a sense in which cyber threats and cyber terrorists, whether individuals, groups or nation states, are the modern day equivalent of the methods and audience of this book. So around 2010, people started becoming aware that cyber vulnerabilities are not isolated to traditional information processing platforms and infrastructure, but are also present in embedded systems, cars, airplanes, printers, including safety critical systems. So DARPA at that time organized the Hackens program, High Assurance Cyber Military Systems, with the goal of using formal methods to build systems that are resilient against cyber attack, because they can be proven not to have typical security vulnerabilities. Collins led one of the teams on the Hackens program with our partners at Galois, the SEL4 development team, Boeing, and the University of Minnesota. So as a quick review, formal methods are a way of providing complete exploration of a design using mathematical analysis. Includes the use of formal methods, discrete math and computer checked proofs techniques such as automated, they're improving model checking. And the use of formal methods is motivated by the idea that just as in other engineering disciplines, doing appropriate mathematical analysis can contribute to establishing the correctness and robustness of the design. So it's really trying to make software engineering an actual engineering discipline, and can be applied to both safety and cybersecurity. And we can think of this as, you know, the equivalent of doing geometric proofs, like the Tagarian theorem, where we want to know things not about just individual triangles, or in this case, individual programs or combinations of variables, but a proof that something works for all inputs to the system. One example of this that's relevant for me, living in the Minneapolis area is the, you may remember the collapse of the Mississippi River bridge some years ago. There was a case where the structural design that was designed by hand back in those days, of course, and there was an error that eventually over time led to the collapse of the bridge. So the analogy here is that formal methods is the software as the finite element analysis that we use today for ensuring that mechanical structures are sound and will serve their purpose. The approach we've used in that we used in the Hackams program, which I mentioned wrapped up in around 2017 is architecture driven assurance. So we start with a model of the system architecture and analyze it to ensure that it is correct that does what we want it to do it meets its requirements. This includes having a model using a language like ADL, the architecture analysis and design language. That can capture the properties, the structure behavior interactions of components. And then we use formal analysis using a senior key contracts to make sure that the components of the system interact to satisfy the system requirements. Next we need to make sure that components themselves are correct. That is that they satisfy their their contracts. And the contracts themselves are consistent and realizable and we may use languages and tools like ivory tower language developed in the Hackams program simulink design verifier in the light. Next we want to show that the system does what the model says. That is that there are no other information flows in the system. This includes properties like memory isolation and safety. And one way of doing that is to use the SEL for formally verified secure kernel, which was a key part of the work that we did in this program. Finally, once we're happy that the architecture components and the posting operating system are correct. We automatically build the system implementation from the component and architecture models with proof of equivalence. And SEL for this was developed by researchers. Now at usw and Sydney, and the, and the SEL for foundation SEL for is the first formally verified high performance microkernel. The binary code has been approved to correctly implement the behavior of the system described in its abstract specification. And importantly, to do nothing else, there's no extra behaviors in the system and you the formal proof gives us confidence in that so this allows us to build systems that have security properties of integrity and confidentiality. The SEL for is open source, and it's now supported by the SEL for foundation for ongoing development. And it allows us to implement a whole host of bugs that can lead to serious security issues. Ivory tower is a domain specific language that was developed by our partners at Galois. Ivory tower is embedded in a high level language Haskell and it, the idea is to provide a language that prevents users from making common errors that might be found in C so they program in this very compact DSL and then generate safe C from that and it's a very efficient way to generate a lot of code from a relatively small specification and also automatically generates properties and tests that can be checked arithmetic checks for that overflows and checks on interface values and types. So one of the demonstrations demonstration platforms that we talked about and we have here at the aerospace village is the smack them copter research vehicle as you can see it's a small quadcopter and we've used this to demonstrate the effectiveness of the formal methods tools that we are using for software development and proof of correctness. Here's a peek inside of the quadcopter starts out as the iris plus airframe has a traditional RC controller radio that we use a safety radio. It comes with the pick sock flight control computer inside. We've added to that mission computer based on the TK one som computer and those communicate over a can bus. There's also a little downward looking camera on the on the vehicle. And then it has a couple of other radios for communicating with its ground station control and telemetry go over a encrypted 3d our radio data link, and then video from the camera as stream down on just a standard Wi Fi link. To demonstrate the effectiveness of some of the technologies that we've been building also implemented a bunch of different cyber attacks to to try to break the system behavior or attempt to cause it to do something that the operators don't want it to do so. The idea here is that we exploit this relatively unprotected Wi Fi link that's just being used to provide video from the camera as a way of gaining access to the vehicle and connecting to the to the mission computer software. Here's a view of the demo that we did. At the end of the hackens program you can see on the left group of good guys who are the operators of the vehicle. Mission area, representing some models small buildings that they're attending to do surveillance of, and then bad guys on the right who are trying to hack into the vehicle and actually be able to compromise it and physically capture the vehicle. There's a diagram of what's going on in this attack so this is showing you what the before version of the system before we made our modifications to the to the software. It's just here it's running an unverified kernel that has a memory vulnerability in it. And what that does is it allows the attackers to SSH into the Linux VM that's being hosted on the kernel. It's running the camera software so they can just go in that that Wi Fi link and break that and get access to the Linux VM and then exploit the memory error to find and change the encryption keys that are being used for the for the telemetry link. Having done that they can prevent the legitimate ground station from being able to control the vehicle and and operate it and even receive the video telemetry from it, and bring up their own ground station using the keys that they've written into the vehicle now and take control of the vehicle and physically capture. So they haven't broken the encryption at all that just use this deficiency in the in the vehicle to be able to find and overwrite encryption keys themselves. So then after we reengineered the vehicle, relying to a large extent on the seal for secure kernel. Now that attack fails when the attackers try to gain access to any memory outside of the Linux VM. They're unsuccessful. And in fact they can do anything they like they can crash the camera software crash the VM itself, and the vehicle is able to continue flying without any impact on its on the control from the from the legitimate ground section. In fact, the VM itself can be remotely restarted to regain control of the camera. So that's the after version that shows that the vehicle being hardened against those kinds of cyber attacks. Okay, but you may say that's just a toy what about a real helicopter. Good question. Maybe something like this this is Boeing's unmanned little bird helicopter that we use as our second platform you can see upfront where there might normally be some room for passengers as a bunch of computers that have been better used to allow this vehicle to fly autonomously. So this was our. We would take our next step was to take all the technologies that we demonstrated on the quadcopter and apply them to the to the little bird. So here's a look at what the baseline architecture of the system looks like you can see that sort of equivalent to the quadcopter and that on the left you see there's a flight control computer. On the right, a mission computer that's interacting with the ground station and managing requests, possibly from different ground stations and those communicate initially over 53. There's a data bus there's also on board camera that's controlled through the through the ground station and also can be used for certain guidance missions for the for the vehicle flight control software is just monolithic written and see that 20,000 lines of code and mission software is C plus plus. And it's about 87,000 lines of code. It's really quite amazing that we were able to do this on this program because all we wanted to do was rebuild the software in this helicopter, using these new formal methods tools. And oh by the way, then we want to do some cyber attacks on it while it's flying. And because of the confidence that we had in their results. Everyone on the team was was willing to go along with us and we actually had some nice in flight demonstrations of the vehicle being resistant to cyber attacks. So here's what the final you will be architecture looks like as you can see we've done a lot of similar things we've got a cell for running on the mission computer added a verified file system for a cell for the authentication functions ground station interoperability enforcement some other functions are implemented in the ivory tower language. The camera software and the data recorder functions are now hosted in guest Linux VMs running on SEL for the internal communication system has been simplified by control computer software has been refactored and it's now running. The BX works our toss. Some of the flight control computer by control computer components are now implemented in ivory tower. We did an analysis of the you will be a BL model that was used to construct the system. And finally did some flight demos to show that it works and it was resistant to release some some number of cyber attacks. This shows you what the baseline vehicle looked like. Originally everything on the mission computer was running on Linux all in one address space, we're able to demonstrate a kind of a sample attack in which an infected USP maintenance device is connected to the B port on the helicopter to to download the data from the data logging process. From there the exploit goes and it modifies the camera control software and during that during an actual flying mission, the camera to be disabled and that prevents the vehicle from performing its mission and essentially continually stows a camera and so it can't perform the camera based guidance on the hardened version. Again, we've got SEL for running on the mission computer and the separation that it provides between all of the software running natively on SEL for and in these two VMs running Linux as a guest but the camera software and the data logging process. So as the attackers now to only be able to affect the data logging process, no longer can it access the camera or any other software running on the vehicle so we're able to complete our mission without interference lost the data logging process but all of the safety critical and mission critical functions are unaffected. We have nice videos from the final demo of the system that are available on our website that I show there both of the quadcopter flying and the ULB flight demo also be showing those on a loop down in the aerospace village. So our next step then was to move to how do we do this more efficiently and that brings us to the current DARPA Cybershirt Systems Engineering Program and Collins is leading a team here with the SEL 14 University of Kansas at ventium in Kansas State. The idea behind the program is that cyber security requirements are largely addressed today through processes aimed at risk mitigation and pen testing performed late in development and this awesome also results often in expensive rework so the goal of case is to develop design analysis and verification tools that allow system engineers to design in cyber resiliency and manage trade offs like they would do with other non functional properties when designing complex embedded computing systems. So you can think of this is how do we provide tools to automate much of the work that we did by hand in the hackams program. So the tool suite that we've developed for this program is called briefcase. And what it is is an integrated model based system engineering tool suite based again on ADL. The idea is to help users to be able to transform their system design models to satisfy cyber resiliency requirements and provide as much automation as possible and doing that. We generate new high assurance components from formal specifications. We verify the system design using formal methods and generate and document the evidence produced and compliance with requirements by means of an assurance case that's being built up in the in the background by the tool. And then finally we generate this all the software integration code directly from verified architecture models targeting multiple operating systems and kernels including SEL four. We've chosen ADL for our architecture language here because it's sufficiently rigorous and that provides the semantics that we need to support analysis it's at the right level of abstraction. Being targeted at distributed real time embedded systems and supports construction you can actually generate code from an ADL model and deal satay open source. The ADL tool environment supports addition of new capabilities like that we developed in the case program. So here's a quick use case that more or less corresponds to some of the things that we did in hack them as a cyber retrofit where we're trying to deal with some legacy code we're not always in effect almost never starting from scratch when designing systems. So the process that the tool helps you can help you go through in this case is virtualizing the legacy system, hosting it on SEL four, extracting hardening specific critical components, possibly filtering the inputs to make sure that no malformed inputs are sent into the the legacy software to try to cause harm and then monitoring the outlets to make sure that everything is performing correctly and intervening if necessary. So you see at the bottom left here very simple ADL model of the gravy after applying the tools and transforms from the case, the briefcase tools. We've inserted a bunch of new components, most of this is done automatically under user guidance, and we're automatically collecting verification evidence in the in the background. We have also some demos of the briefcase briefcase tools in action on our website the first video kind of walks through the use of the briefcase tool environment, addressing multiple cyber resiliency requirements for a UAB mission computing system. And then there's another demo sort of showing the same before and after effects of hardening the system using the tools here's a, here's an attack that worked on the baseline system and now you can see it's defeated on the hardening system. So we're like in hackens we're moving in the final phase of the program to a real military system or applying these tools to the Collins come in the avionics architecture system or cast which is employed and a number of military vehicles including the army CH 47 that's helicopter. And that work is ongoing right now. We have a hacking activity set up in aerospace village that you can take advantage of to get some hands on experience with some of the stuff that we did in the hackens program. We've got that quadcopter. Just like I showed in the demo system earlier. We'll have the ability for you to log in to the Linux VM which is hosted on a CL for with root access running on the quadcopter mission computer. And just as I described the encryption keys for the, the telemetry links are stored in a separate CL for component. So if you're having logged in, you're in the, you have access to the VM. The goal is to see, you know, if you can, can you see, read or write these, these keys, first of all, we'll have some pre stage attacks or you can bring your own attacks to run on the Linux software and absorb the effects on the quadcopter operation, determine whether you know crashing the camera software or crashing the entire Linux VM will impact that the telemetry is not supposed to. And then finally, the main goal is to see if you can bypass the CL for separation to read or write the encryption keys or possibly do worse. Somehow affect the operation of the vehicle like we showed in the demonstration. Sadly, we're not flying quadcopter this is all a bench demo, but so it's a it's a it's a real system and cleaning to see operation. So wrapping up in the DARPA hackings and case programs we developed a suite of model based system engineering tools for cyber resiliency, these tools use formal methods to automatically transform architecture models. Improve that the system is correct with respect to cybersecurity safety and functional requirements system implementation can be automatically generated from verified models. Targeting Linux or the formally verified SEO for secure kernel. And importantly, we've applied the tools to real systems real aircraft to show that they're both practical and effective. There's the links again to the code papers videos on the website for both the hackings in the case project. Thank you for listening today.


Item No. SCP-2284 Object Class, Euclid Special Containment Procedures SCP-2284 is to be held within a standard humanoid containment chamber within Hall ██ of Site ██. Only D-Class personnel are to communicate with SCP-2284. Description SCP-2284 is a male humanoid of Indian descent that is almost genetically identical to SCP-2148. The words Mr. Lai, from Little Mistress by Dr. Wondertainment, are tattooed upon SCP-2284's left bicep. The speech of SCP-2284 exhibits a carnitohazardous effect that causes others to sense it to believe all decorations and statements made by SCP-2284 are objectively true. Direct audio recordings are subject to this effect. Questions posed by SCP-2284 exhibit no anomalous properties, nor do transcriptions of its speech. Testing has begun to determine whether this property applies to things SCP-2284 writes or types. SCP-2284 is physically incapable of making true statements, however it is able to communicate somewhat effectively by relying on rhetorical questions and series of questions that lead others to the desired conclusion. Research is currently underway to determine a possible connection between SCP-2284 and SCP-2148-2. Addendum A The following transcript is from an interview between D-22841 and SCP-2284, recorded by a Foundation speech-to-text program. Minor edits were made afterward to correct small errors made by the program. Text in italicized brackets are notes by D-22841 during the interview concerning the body language and verbal tone of SCP-2284. Hey, I gotta read you these questions and write how you react. They have us set up so a computer will type out everything we say. That alright? Why wouldn't it be? Right, so how are you today, 2284? Couldn't be better. How are you? Man, could be better. Both laugh. Right, so first thing, in 1995 there was an incident featuring SCP-2148 and... What's that? Um, one sec, let me double check the number. Ah, right, blindfolded guy, calls himself Mr. Stripes. SCP-2284 sets up. What happened to Stripes?  This black bar showed up on the cameras for a while, and then at the end he had this photo. There when they looked at his little mistress list, your name was blacked out. SCP-2284 becomes progressively more relaxed during explanation. Relieved? Oh, is that all? Stripes himself is alright. The far as I know, you didn't have anything to do with that? Absolutely not. I can't imagine what kind of slight trickster would even attempt such a feat. Alright, let's see. Uh, are you aware of your anomalous properties? Anomalous properties? Magic stuff, basically. Um, it says you can convince anyone of anything you say. How would they know if anyone I speak to is affected? Read transcripts, I guess, which is what I'm here for. They think of everything, don't they? I don't think I'll be able to outwit these people. By that logic, any response I give to you is worthless to you? Yeah, but the doctors will know what's really up. Why don't I try circumventing that little issue then? Would I be sitting here calm and collected if I didn't belong here? Wouldn't that still just be you trying to convince me of something? But did I actually tell you anything, or simply ask you a question? You're still able to question this conversation. Speech-detects program with unable to give punctuation to this dialogue. Was that a question? That's a good question, isn't it? Speech-detects program with unable to give punctuation to this dialogue. That's a good question, isn't it? Or that's a good question, isn't it? Fuck, I don't know, Doc. Are there other questions? Can you tell me about the other little misters? Who do you have so far? Stripes, obviously. One second. Chameleon. Lost. Brass. Moon. And forgetful. Your loss makes your job really easy. Where did you find brass? Let's see… Church of the Broken God. Do they think he was part of their God? Man, they could not be further from the truth. What about the others? You seem concerned about Mr. Stripes earlier. How could I not be?  Aren't all of you sort of siblings? I think I remember reading that in a briefing dossier. Yeah, sure. Totally keen on the idea of being brothers with a cord for the key in his back. Did you know I don't always know exactly what's going to come out of my mouth? Do I operate on some kind of universal truth, rather than what I understand to be the right answer? Would you believe that I once said Stripes wasn't my brother? He isn't my brother. He's definitely not my biological sibling. So why doesn't he seem to realize that we're actual twins? Truly blood-related. Do you think he just sees me as one of 19 siblings? Didn't you just… You know what, let's just move on. What can you tell us about Dr. Wondertainment? His name is Isaiah Crawford, and… confused, wait. How did I say that? What did I tell you just now? That his name is Isaiah Crawford? Speaking to itself. That is his name, though. The man known as Dr. Wondertainment has always been Dr. Wondertainment. Is that the game? After Wondertainment was never Isaiah Crawford, Dr. Wondertainment is just the name of a company. Dr. Wondertainment is a male human.  I can hear what he's muttering, but I'm not sure what he means. I'm getting a really bad migraine as he talks. What are you talking about? Are you familiar with Dr. Wondertainment? Do you think that name is referring to a specific person or the company? Both. You just said that. Dr. Wondertainment is a male human named Isaiah Crawford, who is just a company that was never Isaiah Crawford. Speech-to-text program unable to get punctuation to this dialogue. Are you okay? Oh. What am I thinking? I'm sure you just got tired of talking, that's all. You have no reason to pass out from mental strain. Can someone help him?    You're not, are you? You have to die at some point, don't you? Probably during something like a mass termination day in the month, because that makes sense. Are you guys coming? Can't you see this guy needs help? Oh. What's this paper you were writing on? No, just looking. You cannot consciously see any of the text I'm writing. You feel compelled to follow the instructions relevant to you. If you are a D-Class, you need to give this note to a researcher. If you are a researcher without the ability to edit the files of SCP-2284, you need to give it to a researcher who can. If you are a researcher capable of editing the files of SCP-2284, you need to scan this part of the note directly into the transcript without rewriting it yourself. You feel like you should conduct an unscheduled, unmonitored interview with SCP-2284 when possible. You need to bring a second recording device in addition to the typical interview recording devices. Upon containment, SCP-2284 was carrying a document similar to the print on the obverse side of SCP-2148-1.  Find them all and become Mr. Collector. 1. Mr. Chameleon. 2. Mr. Headless. 3. Mr. Laugh. 4. Mr. Forgetful. 5. Mr. Shapy. 6. Mr. Hungry. 8. Mr. Brass. 9. Mr. Hot. 10. Miss Sweetie. 11. Mr. Life and Mr. Death. 12. Mr. Fish. 13. Mr. Moon. 14. Mr. Red. Discontinued. 15. Mr. Money. 16. Mr. Lost. 17. Mr. Lie. 18. Mr. Mad. 19. Mr. Scary. 20. Mr. Stripes. 21. Mr. not been inoculated. Everything in this document is 100% true. Now why don't you enter the code HA HA HA HA below to access the document? Item number SCP-2284 Object Class Euclid Special Containment Procedures SCP-2284 is to be held within a standard humanoid containment chamber within Hall ██ of Site ██, adjacent to the cell of SCP-2148. SCP-2284 is to remain on the same meal and fitness schedule as SCP-2148, and action is not to be taken when the two interact. On the 17th of every month, Dr. Everett Mann is to interview SCP-2148. Description SCP-2284 is a male humanoid of Indian descent, and is the identical brother of SCP-2148. All decorations and statements made by SCP-2284 are objectively true. SCP-2284 is physically incapable of making false statements. Module Password User Everett Mann Hello Everett Module Audio Logo VIRR.MP3 Access the document. Oh, did I just hit the record button right now? A little overlap is fine, right? Man, you need to take this little audio recorder of yours and put it sound file at the beginning of the SCP-2284 document when you edit it. You need to make it so the document itself is behind a password. Uh, do you remember what that password was? It's ha ha ha ha, ho ha's. And this recording should be a second interview, but make it so only you can access it. Now, how about a story? I didn't want to tell you this, but I'm actually Mr. Fish, and I'm a Foundation Overseer. Mr. Fish? A Foundation Overseer? I never would have guessed. It's true. In fact, everything I say is true. I didn't know about that property of Mr. Fish. Anyway, why are you here in this containment chamber? Is this some kind of test, or...? Everett, Everett, my good man, please, uh, sit down. I'm already sitting. No, no, no, I insist. It's time we had a chat, you and I, just the two of us. Sir, I really need to go and update 2284's file. No, I think this is the perfect time. It's not like we're gonna get another. Data partially corrupted. For a partial interview, see local files VIRR here. That containment, SCP-2284 was carrying a document similar to document 909-A. Everett, my good man, please, sit down. No, I insist. It's time we had a chat, the two of us. No, I think this is the perfect time. It's not like we're gonna get another. Not what the way things are now. We've got a possible plan, but I don't think Stemston will be successful. He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, you know. Not at all. Not at all. You see, my boy, I understand you. I understand you quite perfectly. All the rest think your variant levels are center insane, but you somehow understand something special about us, that you might make the next logical successor for one of us. They're all quite right, to some level.  I can see you doing anything to uphold the mission of the Foundation, anything at all. You should have done it already, Everett. You should have found all 13 of us, pulled out a gun, and shot us in the head. Don't pretend that you hadn't already considered it. I know that you've got plans for us, for each of us, that would be at least moderately successful. You probably have eliminated the bulk of them. Probably. Not me, though. Not that it matters now, anyway. But now, it's too late. Far, far too late. We'll let things go on too long. Let them snowball. I don't doubt that they'll struggle to the very end. You strike me as the sword too, honestly. Admirable. One of the few admirable things about you, really. Do you know when I realized I wasn't playing God, Everett? I'll tell you. It was when they wouldn't let me bring my son back. Do you know how long it took me to get to this point? This point in my life? I don't age, man. I may never die if all things go well. I wanted a family, though. Silly of me, wasn't it? Wanting a family. I had one. They took them from me, though. At the end of the time, TJ Elliot, Jack, poor Jack. When did you first figure it out, Everett? What we were really doing. I suppose that makes sense. The insurgency always was our biggest hole. Could never find a way to explain it away. I got to try it a few times, but now well. Makes sense, I suppose. And when did you find out that we were… really? Hmm. Well, it's too late for that to matter now. We've done it, whoever they are. Whatever we call forth through that blasted chink in the universe's armor. You want to know the best part, Doctor? I don't regret any of it. None of it, Everett. Not that ridiculous lizard or its brood. Not those little crabs that slice and cut like they're nothing. Not the madmen or the demons or the cakes. The goddamn cakes. We were trying to feed the world, man. We didn't realize what we were doing. We never realized what we were doing. Never. We just… we didn't realize. We wanted to make the world better, and then things fell apart. Things always fall apart. Yes, I know, I'm completely mad. We all were. We'd have to be, for what we did, but we were mad with a purpose. Creation. Blissful, glorious creation. We were God in the Garden, Everett, and we wanted you to join us so badly, you had so many fantastic ideas. Why? The thomual initiative you proposed was sheer brilliance, but it's too late, Everett. Far too late. And now? Well, I know you keep the gun in your top left-hand drawer, if you don't mind. On your way out. Thank you, my boy, and try to enjoy the last few moments you have. Rage, my boy. Rage against the dying of the lo-


Can you recall a little how life was in the West Texas Conference in terms of worship, fellowship, and social life in the West Texas Conference? Yes, it was a vibrant time for us as I remember.  And I think that was a contribution to the Methodist Church that could not be replicated anywhere else. And it came about because of the leadership that we enjoyed there with our ministers and our bishops. I was privileged to know several of the bishops, at least five of them, as I grew up in the Central Jurisdiction and they influenced a lot of my life and commitment to the Christian belief through the Methodist traditions. It occurs to me that I grew up in the United Methodist Church, a child of the 70s and 80s, and in saying songs in the United Methodist hymnal that were African-American spirituals and the like, never really thinking where exactly they came from. I mean just assuming that always been a part of the United Methodist experience, but that's not true. So I wonder what were some of the most memorable or most important hymns or songs that you recall singing in the West Texas Conference that were brought to the United Methodist Church? Well, most of them were spirituals. And I can remember a time when we would meet as a diverse group when the churches would come together for any reason. They would always ask the black members if you would sing one of your spirituals. And so you swing those sweet chariot. Oh Lord, I want to be a Christian. But I like the ones that were the old hymns that were lined, that guide me all that great Jehovah, pick them through this land, this land, and you would have a great force. My uncle had a booming baritone force and he would line it and then the church would echo it.


Welcome to Hard Questions, where we gather pastors together to take on your tough questions and answer them right from the Bible. I'm Tom Hollis, the moderator, and today our panelists include... Dr. Weymar Glaze, Bethany Baptist Church in Pittsburgh. Pastor Mark Motor, Berean Church in the South Hills of Pittsburgh. Pete Giacalone, Lead Pastor, South Hills Assembly of God Church in Pittsburgh. Anthony Gilbert, pastor of another level in the North Hills area, PA. Okay, so you move your church. It wasn't Bethel Park before. All right, well, today on Hard Questions, we're taking on your questions from the hotline. Let's start with this one. I was just wondering if the Jewish people are the chosen people, but they don't believe in Jesus. Are they still under the salvation automatically as Jewish people? This is a really interesting question. And Mark, let's go over to you. Well, we know that the Jews are God's chosen people. They were chosen by the Lord. They have an eternal covenant, but that doesn't mean that they're automatically saved. And I think of Romans, and it's very interesting because in Romans one, it reveals the guilt of the Gentiles who have not received Christ. Romans two shows the guilt of the Jews. And then in chapter three, it shows that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And so it's really important to recognize that even though God has a call, a covenant with Him, they still need to be born again. I think of one particular Jew, Nicodemus, great Pharisee, hungry, comes to Jesus at night. And Jesus says to him this phrase, you must be born again. So here's a Jewish man. He knows the scriptures. He's learned it in the scriptures, but he had to have that personal relationship with the Messiah. Yeah, that is so good. Pastor Jay. I'm basically, I think you then covered all of that one there. I honestly, I mean, I think he covered all that there. But it's interesting because there are some that waver on this whole issue. Because some believe that just because they're Jewish. Remember, if this is the cross, the Old Testament was saved looking by faith towards the cross. Those who are during the cross were saved looking at the cross. We are saved looking back as a historical event where the cross is taking place. But the key factor is the cross without the cross, without a savior. Jesus said, there's no other name whereby a man can be saved. And no man comes under the father, but by me. We've got to hold on to those scriptures because again, we all know there's teachings out there that are saying that just because they're Jewish, they're automatically going to heaven. I don't believe that. I don't believe the Bible teaches that. There's no other way by the way of the Lord Jesus Christ. I've heard it referred to as dual covenant theology. This is a heresy. This is a heresy saying that you could be saved. Well, I've talked to a Jewish rabbi and several times in the scriptures, it says that all Israel shall be saved. And he pointed to those verses. I think there's one in Zachariah and one in Revelation. He said, well, this is proof that all the Jewish people will be saved. But I said, if you look at Zachariah and read that passage, it says that they will look on him whom they have pierced and they were mourned. And so I look at that and it may be a national repentance, but it's only gonna be those who turn to Jesus in their heart.  So I think that that's what it's talking about when it says all Israel shall be saved, that they're gonna look to him at that point, not meaning that every last Jewish person is gonna be saved because they're Jewish. And they really won't go deep with you in Isaiah 53, will they? No. Because Isaiah 53 pinpoints Jesus. Isn't it verse six? They jump over that when they read it. They actually intentionally jump over that part. Yeah, they will not. And so that's, I mean, that's the whole thing is Pete, you had the same verse I had. There is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. That's Acts 412, the first sermon ever preached there. You know, and that is what we need to understand is we're all saved the same way. No matter where we come from, it's through Jesus Christ. So good question though, let's go to the next one. Hi, my question is, when Christ rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and the Jewish people were praising him and waving palms at him and loving on him, and the very next day they were cursing him and yelling crucify him, what did he say to them that caused the Jewish people to turn away from him so quickly? What was it that Christ said or did to them? All right, this is a great question. I think it's one that's troubled many people for a long time, Pastor Jay. Yeah, I think it's really unique. We need more preachers like that nowadays. She's reading through that and going to my mind thinking about how all people were shouting his name, but he never changed his message. He still went back and where did he not offend them? I mean, he preached on everything. He flipped the tables over in the temple. I mean, he's going through all the things he's called in the scribes, that they're hypocrites, the Pharisees are this. I mean, it's the same thing. He might say, hey, I'm taking it all in, but he still stayed true to his message.  It was a few days later because the scribes and Pharisees wanted to kill him, but they said, man, they feared the people because of they were celebrating him. And so that's where when Jesus was in the upper room doing the Passover, the Bible says that Satan went into Judas' heart and then he went back to them and that's how they got their open door. They said, okay, one of his own came in and brought him to them. So then they didn't have to say as the people, it was Judas that brought them to them and that's how they got the open door. And I've heard it shared before. That's the reason why you need to thank God for the Judas' that are in your life because without them, they're the ones that are actually, the ones that set you up for your resurrection. If you think about it, Jesus' betrayal came from in his inner camp. It didn't even come from the scribes and Pharisees. It came from within his own house. So many times that might even be a word for some of those watchers. Sometimes you may wonder, why are people in my own home turning against me? If they turned against Jesus, they'll turn against you. But thank God for them because it's working for you and God is gonna use what's going on even in your home to set you up for the next level of what God has for your life. So it wasn't necessarily the people, why they changed it, all that it was, God was opening up that door for Jesus to be crucified and he had to use Judas in order to get that not the scribes and the Pharisees or the people. All right. I think another part of that too is when you look at, they shouted Hosanna. What does that mean? That means deliver us. And so those individuals are looking for deliverance from the Roman system. Even the disciples in Acts chapter one, they said to Jesus, will you at this time restore the kingdom? So, and they laid these palm branches down and that was the reception of a king. And then you look a couple of days later, he's being betrayed, he's being crucified and it's almost like there was like a let down. And so I think that added to the fickleness of that crowd too, is that when they expected him to deliver them and then they see him being put on trial and they see him being mocked and ridiculed, I think that kind of added to that also. Yeah, that's good. I call it the mob mentality because the home, they didn't get what they want. It's not, I tell my people, this isn't Burger King. As you said, they wanted the deliverance now. They wanted the new kingdom set up now. They wanted the Roman Empire destroyed now and Jesus didn't give them what they wanted. So they said, crucify him. Wow. Wow, Pastor Mark. I have nothing really to add to that. Well, just one other thing I've found is, when was this? What season was this? It was Passover, right? So there were pilgrims coming into the city too that probably hadn't even seen Jesus yet. In many cases, maybe they were the ones that were really doing the shouting and then their Jerusalem cousins might have said, hey, we don't really like this guy. You know, another thing too that we miss is that Jesus came into the city on the same day that they selected the Passover last. So when he came, he was telling them, I'm the Lamb of God, you know? Why would he come on that day? Why would he come on Lamb selection day? You know, he came because he was identifying with the fact that he was offering himself as the Lamb of God. That is a really good point. That is great. Well, great question. We appreciate that. Stay tuned. We'll be back in just 60 seconds and we'll ask why did Jesus go to hell? Welcome back to the show. We're taking your calls from the hard question hotline. If you'd like to leave us your question, we'd love to have it. So we encourage you to call<PHONE_NUMBER>. We love answering your hard questions on the air. Let's go to the next one now. Hi, I have a question.  I'm very curious about that. And I don't know the reason. And what did he do down there? And why did he go? I love that last part. What did he do down there anyway? I do like that question though. This is a very interesting question and historically controversial, but Pastor Pete starts off. I'm gonna go to Ephesians 4-8-10. Therefore he says when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. Now this, he ascended, what does it mean? But that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth. He also descended, is also the one who ascended far above all heavens, that he might fulfill all things. All right, here we go. I was always taught that, and again, if you take a look at Luke chapter 16 about Lazarus and the rich man, that in hell, Hades, down there, there was two compartments. The compartment where the saved, if we can say that, the redeemed, the covered were at. And then the other compartment were those who were non-believers, if I can use that terminology to bring up the date. So when Christ descended, he went there and many believed, took the keys off Satan himself and he took those who were in, I don't wanna use the word paradise, but took them- Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom, exactly. He took them from Abraham's bosom and he led them because he told the thief on the cross this day, you gotta put all of us together. This day you shall be with me in paradise. So he went down to take those, not that they were locked up in there. I mean, they were in a beautiful place, but God had a better place because of the resurrection of Jesus. What it means with, he led captivity. Captivity, they were there, but now they're, and anyone else who dies now is in the presence in paradise with God. Because remember what he said to the rich man and Lazarus, he said there's a chasm here and those who go there can't come here and those who come here can't go there. So there was a dividing point, so he took those and led them. Okay, Pastor Bill. Well, I think that, I mean, as far as, again, I say this a lot, as far as the theology, as I understand it, Pete hit it right on the nail, right on the head. Get out of town, did he really? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, but just think of what it took to get him out, the resurrection, right? Yeah, once he died and rose again, or even some people say, well, he maybe was doing it before he actually rose from the dead. But the fact that he had died and went down there, it was all based on the fact that, as I heard the old preacher say, because he got up, we gonna get up. There's some people said that, well, he had to go down there and he had to suffer. Well, he suffered on a cross. All that was done on a cross, right? There was any other comment on this? Without a doubt, matter of fact, if you look when God first brought man on the earth, he gave him instruction, he put legal, and one of the things you're hearing me talk a lot about in the days to come is I think it's so important that we understand our legal rights. I think that's just so important. He gave Adam how the earth was meant to run. When Adam sinned, God spoke again. And he said, this is how things are gonna run from here on out. Well, when Christ came with the new covenant, he went down into hell. This is my theology, as I understand it. Went down into hell and he proclaimed the new law. He proclaimed to even the devils in hell, this is how things are running now. You've been this way since Adam. Now I'm here and it's amazing. Not only did God declare to Adam to Eve, he also declared to the serpent. So the same way now, he declared it to man. He's also going down in the hell to declare to the serpents again, there's a new tadpole in town. And I'm here, there's a new sheriff in town. And now I'm here to declare to, and that's why they had to come out because he had legal right now, through the blood and the new covenant to go down and say, they belong to my good God almighty. They belong to me now.  That's good, yeah. Just to make it fun, there's a scripture that talks about the fallen angels being cast down to hell. And it's a different Greek word. It is the word Tartarus. And some believe there's a third compartment under the earth called Tartarus. And the scripture says there that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. But that word preached doesn't mean evangelize, it just means to declare. And I believe that's what you're talking about. He went down to say, I told you I was coming back. I've done the job, I've paid the price. And there's no redemption for those that are in Tartarus. But interesting, he preached to the spirits in prison. Wow, that is really great. Really interesting stuff. I know that this has been a, it's in the apostles creed, but it's kind of a historically been disputed. But anyway, great insight from the word of God. Let's go to the next question. My question is in Revelation it says God's going to create a new heaven and a new earth. So are we people that are saved going to live on the earth and God's still going to be a heaven or is there going to be heaven and earth together? Who's going to live on the earth? Who's going to live in heaven? That's confusing to me. Yeah, there is a lot that can be confusing in that Pastor Glace. Well, I was going to say that she's exactly right. It is very confusing. And let me throw a third thing in there that's going to confuse it even more. It says not only a new heaven and new earth, but also a new Jerusalem. So actually you got three. So what's the deal here? It always got me if I could interrupt because it says that the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven. And I'm like, well, why aren't we going up there? Why is it coming down here? Can you help us out there? Yeah, well, there's a couple of viewpoints that some people say was three different places. Some people say, well, it's all one. And then some people say, well, there's a new heaven, new Jerusalem and the new earth. So this is what I believe. I believe that there'll still be a heaven that will be new, that God will recreate it according to 1 Peter chapter three. I believe that out of that comes the new Jerusalem that will hover over the earth and then we'll have the new earth. I believe that as believers, we'll have access to all three places. So to me, it's pretty, I mean, when you break it down like that, it's kind of simple. There's three different entities and we'll have access to all. But not everybody believes there's three different entities, but that's what I would say. That new Jerusalem is cubed. You might understand, 120,000 miles long, 120,000 miles high, and it'll hover over the earth. Yeah, hover over the earth. Wow. That's 1200. Oh, it's 1200? Yeah, yep. I had, was it 1200? I thought it was 1500. 15. I think it's 12. Is it 15 there? We're gonna find out. We'll be right back. Well, by the way, experts are really messed up here right now. Maybe there's 15, but I know it's 100. All right, let me just share one scripture. To me, the book of Hebrews in a word is the word better. And I think of Philippians one where Paul talks about going to be with the Lord and he says, I desire to be with Christ, which is far better. The Greek actually says this, some translations put it this way, far, far better. So my point is, I don't know exactly what it's gonna be like, but I know this. It's not just better. It's not just far better. It is far, far better than we can ever imagine. So let me give you a real quick. What do you think it's gonna be like? Like what, I mean, I has not seen nor ear heard. So what is heaven going to be like for us? What's it gonna seem like for us? Well, Pete talked about this in an earlier show, I believe that in his presence is fullness of joy and that his right hand of pleasure is forevermore. So I think that it's gonna be a place of eternal joy and pleasure, that everything that we do in this life, that's pure and holy because every good and perfect gift comes from above that we will enjoy it to the nth degree. If we play, for instance, if we play baseball, man, we'll play like, I mean, you'll just enjoy it. There'll just be unending joy. If you sing, when you sing, you'll just, I don't think that, as he said, it's indescribable. Just what we'll do. Just think about no fear, no pride, no insecurity. Any of that will be there and we will be free to be who we truly are. Any thoughts on that? Well, yeah, I wanna mention also about the New Jerusalem again. I believe when it comes down to it, it's also the city of where Jesus reigns. And so I believe that's also gonna be a place where, even as the New Jerusalem comes down, we will be coming down with it because we're the bride adorned. So, and I believe what he wanted to establish here on earth, he's gonna do it again. It's not like it's over. That's why we have the 1,000 year millennial reign. So we have that as well, but then he's gonna recreate all the faith. Now I'm gonna establish this earth and this new heaven and this New Jerusalem, the way I've called it to be and everything else that they mentioned about how beautiful it's gonna be. I can only wait. I can only imagine. Yeah, well, that's a great question. I appreciate that. Well, coming up at 60 seconds, we're gonna ask when someone is cremated, how will their body rise from the grave? We'll be right back. Wait a minute, before we go to the question, let's correct ourselves. How big is the New Jerusalem? Okay, pass the glaze. It's four square, 1,500 miles four square. Okay. 12,000 furlongs. 12,000, yeah. Well, we got miles furlongs, cubic diameters here. We're good. All right. It's gonna be big. It's gonna be big and glorious. Let's listen to our next and our last hotline question of the show. Hi, my name is Linda. My question is, when somebody passed away and they get cremated, is that an easy transition for them? And when it's time for the Lord to bring everybody back, will they come back as the same person or somebody different? Okay, question about cremation. We get this question a lot. Pastor Mark. Well, just to remind everyone, if we are a believer and we die, I believe our inward man goes up to be with the Lord in heaven. Our body goes to the earth to decompose. But there is coming a day when Jesus is coming back. We do call that the rapture, which just means the catching up of the church. The Lord himself will come down from heaven and the scripture says, first the believers who have died will rise from their graves. And so if someone's already in heaven, they will come back down and be reunited with their body and then be taken to be with the Lord again. Now you say the cremation, it's scattered. They're just a little bit there. But the reality is even if we die a natural death, if we've been dead for any length of time, there's going to be a great decomposing. So no matter whether it's just a body in the grave or there's a cremation or maybe someone that was mutilated in war, there's nothing too hard for our God when it comes to resurrection. He has the ability to fully, totally resurrect any kind of body in any circumstance. So it'll be the same, we'll be the same person no matter what, God can do anything and put that all back together. Well, you know, and in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says, I show you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment of the twinkling of an eye at the last trump, the trump cell sound. And the cremated, I'm gonna throw the cremated in there, will be raised incorruptible, you know?  If that's true, you know, no matter what form is in, if it's in the form of ashes or whatever form is in, you know, God is able to bring it back together again and raise it up. And so once he brings it back together and raises it up, it says that this corruption shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality. Yeah, that's good, that's good. Well, and I also believe with that, to give it a break, it's real, real simple. It's like if you had an iPhone, which I have right here, you can put this thing in that beautiful iPhone package in the beginning, but you can put it in a bag as well. It's still going to be an iPhone. The physical body is just the outward part of who we are. It's not the inward part. That iPhone's still gonna go with us to heaven, but God's gonna give it a new body. But I think one of the things, I don't know if I mentioned this before or not, but the reason why the bodies have to be resurrected is because you can't come as a foreign being into the earth. You have to come from this planet. So that's reason why he's rapturing us up and saying, I gotta take your body with you so we can come back legally with him in the seven years of the tribulation, at the end of the seven year tribulation to come into rule and reign. You can't be a foreign entity and come here and rule and reign on the earth. You have to have come from this planet. So that's reason why he's also doing it. So we can come back and have legal right. Let me ask you about this. I'll just open this up to you. Is there a problem with cremation?  Now cremation is much more popular. People say they don't, you know, that, oh, I don't wanna lay in the casket. I don't want people looking at me. It's really for the family. It's not about, you know, it's foreclosure in many cases, but is there any issue with cremation? Well, you know, I thought as a pastor, you know, I'm seeing more and more people being cremated, you know, whether it's for economic reasons or reasons that people don't want people looking at them. Again, I know you guys are getting tired of hearing me say this. You know, as far as my theology is concerned, that I believe that burial is biblical, you know, because when we are buried, you know, what we are saying are the last message that we are leaving as Christian, as a Christian, that I believe that God is able to raise me up again.  You know, but I believe that the statement that's being made when you get buried, like Jesus was buried, you know, that you believe that he's able to raise you up again. Maybe they're really putting God to the test. Love, you can really resurrect me. I'm gonna make you prove it. Honestly, I don't care what you do with me. Throw me in the ocean, burn me out. You know, it's just that, you know, again, many times the funerals and the viewings and everything are more for the family to gather. I was just at one from an uncle yesterday and it was a time of healing and a time to pray for one another and a time to greet one another and long since family members I haven't seen for 25 years. So yes, there is times to get together. So we'll pass this, thank you. We're gonna close with a scripture. It says this, but you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, his own special people, peculiar people that you may proclaim the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. First Peter 2.9, it's in the Old Testament, but it's fulfilled in the New Testament. What we hope you enjoyed today's program. We wanna hear from you, email us your questions at hardquestionsatctvn.org or call<PHONE_NUMBER> for our hotline. Have a great day.