Well, thank you all so much for joining us in today's event, which is brought to you by Future Tense, a partnership of Slate, New America and Arizona State University that examines technology, public policy and society. My name is Mia and I am the managing editor of Future Tense, and we are really excited for today's conversation, which is going to focus on how tech innovations from performance enhancing tools to video assisted refereeing are shaping sport, and also how those changes are seeping over into other areas of our lives. And I wanted to flag that this conversation is also part of a range of ASU wide sparkies cup activities. And so these are conversations and events that Arizona State University is organizing between now and the world cup and we hope that you will continue to participate in and more of those events as well you can find more information by Googling sparkies cup ASU. So for today's conversation we are so lucky to be joined by a team of star panelists. And to start we have with us Kristen Collins who's an expert in sport technology and innovation with a long career, applying new tech in the field of athlete performance. Kristen recently served as the Olympic High Performance Director for Beijing 2022, as well as a high performance advisor for the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee. And for us is Dave Gaston, a foundation professor and founding director of the ASU school for the future of innovation and society. He has served as the principal investigator and director of the Center for nanotechnology and society, and is widely published on research and development policy technology assessment public participation in science and technology, and the politics of science policy. We have with us Noah Rubin, a former professional tennis player whose impressive career includes a junior Wimbledon title. Noah is also the founder and CEO of behind the racket, which is a community that allows tennis players of all levels to share their mental health experiences on their own terms. Up next is Christina uncle of our certified pro referee and former former FIFA referee who has been officiating soccer for more than 20 years. She's a laws of the game analyst for CBS sports, and previously analyzed the 2019 World Cup for Fox Sports. She's also a litigation and sports law attorney. Finally, moderating today's conversation is Andres Martinez, the editorial director of future tense and a professor at ASU Walter Cronkite School of journalism and mass communication, relevant to this conversation and this is also working on a book on sport and globalization. I wanted to remind everyone once again that you can and should send your questions for all of our panelists. Throughout the conversation you should see a box to the right of the video that you're watching right now, and then we'll use our last few minutes to tackle those questions. So, Andres over to you. Thank you Mia. Thanks everybody for being here. Thank you for inviting I confess to my fellow panelists before we started that this was probably going to be the most fun I have this week. This is like a great opportunity when you invent a work excuse to talk to really interesting people about something you're very interested in. So that's great and I also did. I also wanted to go back to something Mia mentioned at Arizona State University which is one of the three partners in future tense. We are doing a whole series of activities on campus. From residential life experiences and creating fan zones and what having watch parties in our stadium to more substantive panels and the like, all around the World Cup and in the lead up to the cutter World Cup. And this is a commitment on the part of the University leadership to recognize the global significance of a World Cup and the fact that for once for a series of curious reasons and we're we're having men's World Cup that is not during the pandemic. And it's during our academic year and so we wanted to take full advantage of that and it's really fun to be one of many colleagues that are thinking about about that and it's an experience that's really appreciated by our international students and it's also one that's that's really appreciated by our American students who are kind of embracing the world of sport these days in ways that you know we used to be a little bit more domestic focused. So, this is really an exciting topic for future tense because oftentimes future tense examines how technology impact society, and there are few areas of society that engage broader cross sections of folks in sport. At times it's really interesting to see how issues that play out in society manifests themselves on the playing field and how fans react to them. We can probably talk about a lot of issues including non tech issues, where that has been the case, but in the issue of sport I think it's really interesting to see how much of the governance of our sports do we want to see an outsource to technology. And I feel like we're in this interesting transitional moment. We're seeing that in world soccer and I mentioned the World Cup peg because the cutter World Cup is going to introduce yet another layer of technology assisted learning on on the offside rules and we don't need to get too much detail on that now, but it's yet another step in the evolution, the integration of technology into the referring of a sport that might have been among the more resistant, I'd say to tech referring and some others it's interesting the cultural differences among sports that's one of the things that I want to talk about. But to set the scene for today's conversation I just want to harken back to my weekend, where I was watching arsenal leads, or I was, I thought I was sitting down to watch arsenal leads on a big arsenal fan in the English Premier League. The game started and not two minutes had gone by when they had to stop playing.  It turns out the there was a power outage that somehow affected the calm systems that the that the referees use for all of their video assisted refereeing the bar system. The goal line technology was affected. And it was this funny moment where, you know, if you were following social media and I'm sure lots of fans in the stands were thinking, we have we can see the ref. He's got his whistle. We've got the linesman with the with their flags, like, can we just play the game and referee the way we did for more than a century before we started having these fancy toys. So on the hold, the players had to go back into the locker room. It was a 40 minute break, you know, as a worldwide audience people just waiting, and then they sorted it out. And sure enough, the bar ended up having a huge impact on the on that very game awarded a penalty upon the review that the ref on the field initially had not given took another one away we send it a red card. And a lot of, you know, jokes after the game that well maybe it was a good thing that they had waited. I just thought that that that one match illustrated a lot of the tensions, and the sort of cross currents that we face, as we kind of negotiate this blending factor in governance and refereeing, and the tech aspect, and I want to kick this off by turning to, I can't think of a better person to, to hear from on these issues as a as an attorney, as a as a as a referee and as an analyst for CBS Sports Christina for joining us. I know it's not a very direct question I'm asking but I'm just asking you to sort of react to kind of, and maybe tell us a little bit about where you feel we are in this moment. In terms of this hybrid referring blend of like the technology and the human factor and then we can flesh that out but I just wondering for your, you know, would love your initial reaction to that question. Definitely thank you for having me. I think you hit it on the head and I love being in this environment not that I don't like being in other environments where we can have a little bit more philosophical, you know, kind of really digging into things that are a little bit beyond what we just see on the field. You hit it I think really good on the head when we say, you know, sports and society and where that integration is and how they kind of blend into each other for me, having been part of the first implementation of the AR in a game which was major league soccer in 2017. Premier League nobody else wanted to implement it so, although we claim it's our claim to fame that we were the first league to implement it the reality is nobody else wanted to try they wanted them less to have the growing pains with it and arguably I would say we are actually one of the biggest leagues in the world with the implementation of the AR and funny fact because we don't use those lines that track the second last defender so you do not have offside by the toenails so it's been a more for me and interesting learning the system in the process from an standpoint of to your point for at that point about 25 years and about 20 years I'd been officiating on the field, using skills experience, not having a second look knowing at Portland that that monitors monsters and there's 45,000 fans who are reviewing me and I'm the only person who can't look at the monitor, and I'm the only person who can change the decision. I can't look at it but mind you don't get wrong we always have secret signals to the system referee that wasn't on camera to be like hey look at that board real quick. Let me know. But now we take a look and now that we have implemented technology is something that funny enough not even the officials were asking for and so when you're having that question of, where is this balance and where is this fight the people that are complaining the most or the people that were complaining the most that we didn't have it right. I'm a romantic at heart when it comes to sports specifically football soccer got you or whatever you want to call it right. And I'm a romantic a heart meaning in sport that's that's the pleasure of it right there's highs and there's lows and there's overcoming, you know the hardship right so if I go to the novel romances and that's what I see sport. Yeah, yet now everyone wanted it because it's a billion doll multi billion dollar industry from jobs to the players themselves at least in football it's astronomical outside the United States. How much more of a moneymaker that is in some of our top professional leagues here in the United States between basketball and baseball and American football. Is this intersection of where it was clamor for claim they want us to be 100% as referees, which we all know scientifically is impossible to be 100% as officials, but that's the request is for perfection. Now they're implementing technology they have slowly as your kind of point the first one was the beepers on our arms, allowed us for off sides and communication with the system referees, then turn into the headsets, then turn into goal line technology, then turn into VR which now there's a second subset which is VR light sounds like Bud Light like it's less calories and it truly is it's less people. And that's for other groups that can't afford a full onset of a million dollar, you know, multi million dollar system. And now as you kind of briefly mentioned it hits on semi automated offside technology which here we can all dork about because I have never used the word in sport limb tracking technology where they're actually tracking every single body part of all 22 players on the field at all times with, I think it's 25 cameras right now in Champions League and then I think World Cup it's going to be about 35 cameras so that they know where every single person is, so they can be an instant, just for offside decisions to determine whether there's a goal or potential penalty. It's very astronomical kind of where we've gotten so I'm with you. You have a tracker to right as part of that system. Correct. So that's another interesting company right because it keeps getting deeper and deeper Champions League there is no tracker in the ball. And in World Cup there is a tracker in the ball and so Champions League this fall is the first league first any league to use semi automated offside technology in it. And the only real difference is knowing the velocity of when the ball was hit, which will allow us to know when the first point of contact was from the defender who last played the ball to the individual in an offside position. So honestly I would argue that maybe it's not going to be that detrimental or worth that much money but hey who am I. But it's just really really funny how, you know, seeing it from a perspective as an official, as to your point, sitting there watching the leads arsenal game and me being a leads fan you being an arsenal fan and we're just kind of laughing I mean the VR recommendations went either way so we're all equally hurt by that is that the officials were there and for the longest time before we made those decisions on the field. And truly what technology has proven, although not many people look at it from this perspective is that technology at the highest level reinforces how many decisions referees get correct. Right, everyone's always looked at the most controversial decision here's what in how did we mess this up blah blah blah, but no one's looking at all the decisions that are being made without the use of technology and or the weeks they check completes meaning supporting the decision on the field. That's kind of another interesting component of it at that level when you have that quick of an instant a split of a second to make a decision, using experience knowledge and skill that you've had for over 20 years that you've had to make a lot of errors to get to that point. Right, it's been a very interesting hybrid and cross and if I could have a dollar for every time someone told me in this football world, especially with covering champions like the game is gone, because we now have VR and VR is ruining it I'm like with all due respect you guys are always talking about controversial decisions anyways handling is never going to go away. So it for me it's very fascinating how we've clamored for it now we don't want it. Then we want it when it happens when there's a hand of God play right that the referee will never be able to see because of a perspective and an angle. And I think it needs to be an acceptance from the players the coaches spectators that there's always room for error, regardless of whether it's a referee whether it's the players whether it's, it's never going to be completely eradicated and until we get to that point. There's always going to be debate whether technology is over influencing the game. It is funny how we demand perfection from refereeing but would never expect it from a player. But let me quickly ask you on the, because when it comes to the the unease that I sense in this transition. I should have also mentioned, and the arsenal leads game was a was a good example of this although you can you can see it every weekend where when a call on the field needs to be reviewed. And I suppose somebody whispers in the refs here, they, there's this very performative act of the official on the field going to the sideline monitor. You know doing the symbol, I now do this in my regular life to whenever whenever I want to. And they go to the sideline monitor. Clearly that's somebody you know the Court of Appeals, the bar saying, we think you got this wrong. And I've, I've never seen, I'm not sorry. I'm not saying it has not happened. I have never seen, and I do watch way more Premier League soccer than I should admit to. I've never seen the ref going to the monitor and then saying, you know what, I'm going to stick to my guns I was right like it fans now are conditioned to know that that means going to be reversed and yet we still have this. Often three or four minute performance of going like we're not comfortable enough. We the whoever the collective is of having that Court of Appeals in the year in the bar room, just overturning like we still want to defer to the judgment of the official on the field. And why, why is that and do we still need to do that or wouldn't it just be a lot more efficient for somebody to say hey, we understand you didn't see this but you got it wrong trust us and let's and just reverse the call automatically. Why haven't we gotten to that point. Yeah, you hit that because major league baseball does that right so they the ums go over the head set on and they're like hey don't look at me I'm going to get the decision here after right. But there was one of the principles in creating the VR policy ifab which is the international football advisory board which is the one that actually creates the laws FIFA is the application of it. And so in the instruction on the officiating side, they were very, very deliberate on this in the principles specifically stating that we, the core centerpieces, the center referee, similar to system referees just giving input will always have the final decision on this for transparency sake. Right the biggest, the biggest threat to sports is any type of match fixing, right. Anyway, we can stay away from the appearance of even if it's not happening but the appearance of match fixing saying oh so and so is in their ear because they want, you know, enter to win right or you know you vent this to win or you know legaries there or you know, you know, Barcelona's president is the one talking into them because he keeps trying to jump into the locker room right, like, anyway we can get away from the appearance of in proprietary or that somebody else that may not be the VAR and have those jokes that can attack the credibility of the officials on the centerpiece from the foundational side, as well as from those decisions that are being made. That is, like I said very more, you know, philosophical maybe jurisprudence wise, but it was taking a look at why we send the officials for the very great issues right the ones that are in the, you know, and they actually, you know, in the opinion of the referee that was actually room from the laws which I used to love that one because I was like well my opinions this that means that must be supported. Right, but they specifically move that away but they still want the center official like similar system referees as we always say only give us information, and from that information then we apply and they're huge piece of our team. VAR was that additional component they're just similar to sister referees, they give us that information and as we have still seen with the system. There are still some errors that are provided and have seen where recommendations aren't taken and being trust me in that VAR booth it's black it's dark it's before it used to be in some little shed outside the stadium now it's centralized here domestically in Atlanta, similar to what the NBA does, and you can lose the feel of the game. All right, you can maybe see a point of contact, you can say hey there's point of contact hey it was by studs, but what you might not be able to fully appreciate is this, even though you play the speed force on regular play is whether truly or not like in that context right that that football understanding the feeling anyone who's officiated any game understands that there's some calls that are just expected right. I would say in the football world it's the bicycle kick and you actually hit somebody in the head right we're never going to call that until you hit somebody in the head and I know that doesn't isn't normal but a bicycle kick is a glorious goal that we try not to take away because the football world wants those that happen. And when you're in that VAR booth and sometimes you're isolated, you have to always also remember before you make a recommendation. What does it feel like being on that field and having been in those things and being able to empathize and understand. And that's why not everyone is very good in the VR booth, but when it comes to numbers it comes to demand of referees it comes to demand of taking referees and putting them in the VR booth to provide recommendation who've officiated that level at least has a football understanding to appreciate that. That's where you know we still want that referee to go to the monitor for a controversial decision. Yep, to go ahead and provide that guidance. Thank you that that's really interesting and I'm glad that you, you touched on the NBA and you mentioned baseball because certainly, I think the conversation is a lot richer when when we do kind of make some of these comparisons and think about how different sports are handling this and know I want to turn to you because tennis seems, I mean, from the outside correct me if I'm wrong seems pretty advanced and having incorporated technology and, and I forget when we started having Hawkeye call a lot a lot of the shots. I love playing tennis. Half the time I don't know if the ball was in or out and I don't have Hawkeye in my community courts but tell us like your perspective as a tennis player of how you felt that integration went in tennis and where we're at and what what can we learn from the tennis case study. Yeah, tennis is an extremely interesting scenario because unlike soccer football or a lot of these other sports there's no contact you know it's fairly black and white with how the sport goes along. It's whether or not a ball clip the line or not and that's a matter of I mean we say it's a game of inches but millimeters at time so the technology has improved drastically you know what we knew Hawkeye was was at the top level of the sport at the US Opens, where it was only on the main stage because it was super expensive. And again with unique ability for tennis, you don't have one field, you know at these events you're looking at multiple courts sometimes the US Open I mean, you know we're looking right now at this Hawkeye live situation. It's on about 18 courts or so so it's it's very difficult to implement this, even at the top level the sport so you know here I am, you know playing the initial level professional tennis which is considered the futures and we were just fortunate enough to have somebody walking around and hopefully catch a call that my opponent was trying to you know take one away from me at that point in time but you know as I was going through you started seeing more and more integration of people on court because it's expensive to get, you know, three or four people to be calling these lines throughout every match. So if you're talking, you know at the challenger tour which is the second level up from futures. At that point I had three line judges calling the far lines, the serve which you know are going anywhere from 120 to 140 miles per hour. You hopefully had a nice night's rest the night before to catch those calls and you know it was a very difficult situation so for us where there was no excuse me no contact. We always looked up to us open be like, what is it going to take for us to have something like that. So we don't have to worry that in a moment when I'm hitting a forehand on the run, going 110 miles per hour, and the line judges also moving on the ball because he's calling two lines that I'm hoping that man or woman makes a correct call. I mean that is just a lot of pressure to put on everybody and of course, led to outburst that, sadly I was a part of that times and I admit to be on the wrong side of that. But it was, you know, is forcing upon them to make the right call. And then you have the chair empire, that's the one that's calling out the score, and kind of leading the show and it was, you know, their prerogative to say hey, you know, they made the correct call the laundry did the right thing that ball was out or to overrule that call so it's a very unique situation with how Hawkeye has transitioned into this Hawkeye live where at the top of the sport now. It took a second for players to get used to but you hit a ball. It missed the the sideline by a millimeter to and you hear a automated woman say out, and that was the first introduction we didn't even know I mean it took a while every time I said it turned around I was like what was that behind me. It was actually a voice I did not. It was actually a voice and then they said they could have put any voice upon it but they stick with one they stick with one for the first couple years just to get everybody acclimated. But it took a while and, and I think the other interesting aspect of tennis is it's known to be a traditional sport that has that country club feel to it. And I think, if anybody's watched Wimbledon, you have the line judges all dressed in their whites and they look great and and there's some like Christina was saying the romance to it. There's definitely a part of that in sports you know we don't have the contact necessarily but having the people there, and now almost removing those jobs and you know there's almost no need for them besides the romance of it. It's been a lot for not only fans to handle, but also players within the sport. There is this part of it that it's like, kind of feels empty out there, you know, we are, we have the chair empire who's leading the show. Still calling the score out for the fans who are part of it. But that's really it I mean we actually don't even need the chair empire you know we can play basically a whole match on our own scores on its own calling the lines that's it I mean I'm not touching my opponent unless we're shaking at the end of the match so it becomes a fairly straightforward process. As well as we are now looking to see how other entities within tennis are integrating it so within, let's say the French tennis Federation which is known to hold rolling arrows in Paris that's on clay. They were reluctant to put this into their system they said hey, we're a clay court, you can actually see where the ball lands. Why is there any need to, you know how this automated. Of course, once this was going through it and it was, you know, had a few chair empires get down from the chair to look at the mark and well, you know it hit the line so it actually shows a little bit of a sliver in between the line and the ball and you're like well that doesn't make sense because if there's a sliver in between the line the ball should mean that it's out. And then we started to figure out that there are some definite issues, even within clay court tennis. And then you have grass, which also has integrated recently but clay was the biggest one because they said hey, we have we have ball marks, what is the need to put in this system which is fairly expensive, especially on all our courts. There's no need and finally, you know, needed a new technology Fox 10 was one of the initial is the initial clay court technology it's called true bounce. So instead of Hawkeye which uses cameras to almost reenact where the ball took off off the racket. Fox 10 is using video integration to actually show where the ball lands to show how the ball flattens as well. That's a big deal of not just where it lands how it flattens out with the speed and that shows where it touches the line. It's very interesting. I thought you were going to say that the, the French opens issue with Hawkeye was the, that the voice was making the calls in English and maybe that one. It's interesting. It's interesting to hear you say that all these calls in tennis are all binary the balls either in or out and obviously that's a very hard call when it's like right. The question of millimeters but at the end of the day it is binary. It's kind of, and you don't have the questions of intent with the handball or, you know, the bicycle kick, you know, is it really high is in danger and other player. And I guess the analogy in the football soccer world to what happens in tennis is the goal line technology and in fact I think it's also Hawkeye. That that is one binary call that where it was incorporated right away the stakes were so high because you had glaring you know balls crossing the line or not crossing line reps couldn't see. And that's an interesting case where like the technology was incorporated without much pushback I don't feel and it's pretty automatic and the refs watch either buzzes or doesn't and fans are very accepting of that kind of a little bit like, like in tennis. I think a lot of what we're talking about here is we're trying to remove like the margin of error. It's like this demand maybe you know Christina mentioned the amounts of money involved in the stakes and like we're turning everything into a science and maybe there's this tension with the romance where we used to feel that, you know, the human element and there was a certain fatalism to the fact that some calls went your way some didn't and maybe in the long run it evens out or that's just part of the sport, but we seem to be removing that. So welcome your reaction to that and then are there parallels to be drawn to us trying to remove any kind of margin of error and sort of fatalistic romance from the athletes performance to I mean we're talking about technology influencing but then there's also the athlete performance and how, how do we think differently about technology in both those realms. Yeah, well thank you and thank you for having me. Great discussions here.  And especially on the early days it's getting quicker and faster and more efficient but you you you absolutely have to think about the flow of the game the art of the game itself, and how do you resolve that issue of that slow down I think again people want accuracy but they want to keep that flow. Now when we look at technology and Olympic sport and soccer of courses is also Olympic sport, but you have the early days of corruption I would say that's a figure skating boxing, the potential for gymnastics. And so a lot of the tech in those sports came out to divide the decision making to validate these movements, and it was quite accepted by people because they felt like okay this could help alleviate some of the big swings by nations and in their voting or the way they score certain skills or drills. And then that moved into, and this is a really interesting point is in those sports. It's been 100% like they're they're they're all for it because they do feel like it helps alleviate a potential corruptive environment. But now people have are having to switch their training to understand that what is the system, where's the system coming from is it visual is it timing is it. And then the way they train adapts to that system so you let's say figure skating, you know where the cameras are so if you're going to do a rotation you better do it started at this angle. And then the system will accurately see that you completed, you know three rotations and not. So you're really the good ones, the Olympic medalists, they really hone into where are we competing, where's the system set up, how. They make sure that it works for me and not against me, and they train according to the system that's in place, and so that's a whole different mentality originally the system was important to be accurate. But now it's about how do you not trick the system but but really make sure that the system catches what it needs to catch and this could be in freestyle aerials can be in snowboard half pipe but can be. It can be gymnastics it can be boxing it can be the combat sports, you know there's a whole long list of sports where technology has been introduced on a judging standpoint. And then you brought up Devon Allen, and you know his his issue 110 hurdles at the world championships and I happen to be there. I would like to watch someone train their whole life for a particular moment, and then to be disqualified. Rightfully wrongfully, you know you're one and done and you're, you're out. You know, at one point, you explain what happened so the gun went off and then but he was still as I could use. You know to be honest, I, it's been a while it was a few months ago so, but I just remembered more the devastation and that this was a system that had multiple disqualifications on a given day, and the most important moments of people's careers, and whether the system was at fault whether he was at fault visually when you watch frame by frame, you could not see his movement. So, when you look to validate that, but then live. What are the, what are the referees do, like they have to remove the athlete from the field to play. And, you know, there's no catch to this so you know it's an imperfect science as well as as one feels like it's perfect. It's that's life changing at times when you look at that one moment. And so, you know, we just have to make sure we get it correct. But, but my point is is, is, you know, you have a competition the flow of the competition the energy of the competition. Those, those are subjective factors that have to be played in it, especially in loud arenas when you're waiting for one sensor noise. And, you know, if you can't even see the infraction by video. It didn't really happen but again it stops the whole system, then everybody, you know, it changes the game. And on our side we train for that, you know we train with those systems so there is less room for error on the athlete side. But it is evolving it's not going away. It's just that we all need to evolve together I think. Yeah, it's a cautionary tale about how we, we were getting a lot more precision, but then we can lower ourselves into thinking that these systems are infallible, and there's still perhaps a gap there. I think it would be a good segue into talking about, you know, how, in your mind is somebody who thinks about how we govern technology and what we discern from that. So these debates mirror things happening in the rest of society what does it mean for the rest of us like, you know, I was shocked the last time I came into the country they now have this system where I didn't have to show my passport or interact with a human it was all the facial recognition. We get speeding tickets in the mail from cameras, but obviously we're nowhere near having like court disputes settled by AI as opposed to a human judge although there's a lot of technology there. There's an AI system telling, you know, us what to do vis a vis the situation Ukraine I mean you can think of any kind of number of crazy scenarios where you may or may not use technology but again sports is a great way of kind of like really focusing the mind on these tradeoffs and, and where, where do you see sport being relative to other aspects of our lives and in terms of integration of technology. And it's incredible to follow these deeply experienced and knowledgeable other speakers. The I see the experience with sport is being deeply consonant with the other kinds of experience with similar technologies because these technologies of course don't come out of nowhere. They don't come without the characteristics of the values that were built into the technologies themselves even before they were applied and perhaps imbued with the values that are brought out in their specific applications and sport. I want to start to answer your question word deeply by referring to the work of a French philosopher Bruno Latour, who died just 10 or 11 days ago. The tour talked about in his work, what he called actor network theory, which basically conceptually put human actors, and the things that we would not normally think of as actors but that we normally think of as objects that he called objects that were incapable in our normal view of providing intention, but nevertheless were allied with human actors in a network that actually was important for describing what the outcome was. In the case of, you know, the, the technology say in in soccer the network looks something at least initially, like what was previously described about the the referee and the cameras and the, the limb tracking and whether it's in the ball or not in the ball. But what this network perspective gets you to think about. First is, who is actually in the network and who is outside of the network of the technology that's being implemented are the people who are included or excluded in the network actually involved in the choice of what technologies are going to be deployed and how they're going to be deployed. And therefore, who is the technology actually for, and who is the game actually for. So, you know we heard a little bit in, in Noah's conversation about, you know, the, you know, the technology was only on some courts and did it go to clay courts and how did it go to clay courts with the World Cup technology yes it may be in the World Cup stadiums. Certainly not in high school fields and in school kid fields. Is this the same game that we're actually playing I remember when I was a schoolboy soccer player, and you know I was awed by the fact that we called this the law, rather than the rules. And it took me a while before I got to the point where it was okay to break the law for the purposes of the game. And, you know, of course we see that all the time in in professional soccer professional football, where people take the law into their own hands do things that are against the law for the purposes of their game and their team. And that's an expected part of the game there are strategic fouls. And then raises questions about well, how does the law evolve in conjunction with how the technology evolves. Have we revisited the way we write the laws of soccer, such that they're cognizant of the fact that we have this new ability to observe. Is there any question there that we should revisit. When we call it the law. There's also another really interesting thing that crops up in my intellectual field of science studies that there's a another scholar by the name of Langdon winner, who basically doesn't analogize but but identifies the law with technology legislation with technology in the sense that these are two things that people live with and through and they govern our ability to do what we perceive as is is right in the world. And, and what we want to do that's that's good in the world and that if we accept the idea that with legislation. We have certain norms, democratic norms of making legislation, maybe we should have certain democratic norms of making technologies. And that only in this case punctuates the question of who is the technology actually for, and have they had a voice in the choice of that technology in these particular instances of their application to sport. And then I'll conclude just with another really weird thing that comes out of Kristen's remarks about the, the watching it in slow motion and the watching it in real time. And again, these technologies are all over the place video technology in law enforcement. And as you mentioned, you know, with overhead and traffic lights, but also on police body cams, and also with bystanders. And so if you go back now, basically 30 years in the United States to the LA riots, and the beating of Rodney King, which was captured on YouTube, and when you watched it at full speed you could not believe that these officers were not guilty of some horrible crime they were beating this guy with their batons. But then when it got to trial, and you slowed it down frame by frame, and you tried to create an accountability line from a police officer to his specific baton to a specific reaction by Rodney King's body to legal accountability, it fell apart. And so yes, we always have to keep in mind that the technologies, even if we're seeing it with our own eyes, slow motion real time frame by frame. It may not be telling us the truth. Thank you. There's a lot to unpack there but Christina I'm really, I'd love to just pose to you the question that Dave Rose brought up about. You need to revisit sometimes the technology seems to call for a revisiting of the laws of the game. I, and it's funny you brought bring that up Dave I always think that that's a wonderfully self important thing for football we caught the law of the game but the handball rule and some of these offside debates. It does seem like maybe the rules were written at a time when there was no sense that we were going to have this sort of microscopic frame by frame ability to look this closely and unpack everything I feel like, do you see that we're, we might be redrafting some of these rules and laws in response to what the technology now is asking us in terms of precision and, you know, when we when we go in and we do these reviews. I really did appreciate that prompt my day and just the exploration of that, because me and my dorky way actually truly love the law. And it was something where we had a scenario it wasn't involved necessarily with technology but it was a triple punishment for to Mori red card penalty, because it wasn't a deliberate play on the ball kind of a thing. And people did not realize we still had triple punishment and the, and there was that discussion of well, maybe we wait for the person to take the penalty and if they score then the person is a yellow card and I'm like, wow, that's super fascinating. And going back to the technology component of how we add it on. I think that is one thing that it wasn't until. What was that it was 2014 2015 when David Ellery was in charge that we had a significant substantial change in the laws of the game that hadn't been there until the first time it was drafted and written so our law was working. But now it was for that demand of what about these scenarios these scenarios and you know we call it law and FIFA international football etc and funny enough an NCAA for soccer we call them rules. And the rules and NCAA college soccer are so specific and anyone who's ever drafted legislation who's had to read legislation and then read the annotations and the comments and the advisory opinions in advance of it to truly understand what the purpose of the law was in the first place to see if we're applying it wrong because there's obviously unintended consequences. When everyone draft something it's point of unintended consequences is that I thought in football and soccer we did a very good job of that and the more we get more details I sat on the NCAA rules committee, the more you now have to say well not every situation and scenarios exactly the same it may look the same there may be elements that are the same, but there's one or two things that make this one different than the other one and you know you only really do that deep dive when you're doing clip reviews when you're doing analysis when you're putting six different scenarios that are very similar with differences on a spectrum and saying okay, where do these fallen and why did we fall in and why are we sometimes I know what I'm explaining the laws right and I'm having explain people I have some really high, some good friends and top of FIFA and whatnot and and others and they'll send me a message well this is why the referee got it right I'm like you guys like I can't make that argument in the public court right like, which is the ball, they're gonna kill us because we're literally trying to split a hair and, you know, be very technical about it and, you know, even looking at the laws of the game for FIFA right now with the implementation of technology what they specifically try to do we're going to leave this in VAR protocol and keep that and that's our VAR protocol policy of how we're implementing technology, but let's try not to affect the laws of the game so much. So when we talk about handling issues right now it's you know they're gotten more factual and handling has always had a pendulum swing back and forth it's you know one day hopefully we'll have the porridge right but right now it's either too hot or it's too cold. You know that has always been there outside of technology. So the only difference now is VAR amplifies it and a little bit of a bigger light scheme and same thing with offside it's always either been, you know, I'm not sure if this is the popular thing you're either pregnant or you're not right. Same thing with offside you're either on or you're off there's no debate about that. So I think people are realizing now with it is that they want, they want, they want some wiggle room and some gray room in the black and white scenarios which the law doesn't allow for, and for good purposes and good reason, but it's it's everyone wants to debate about something which is all in business right. I haven't talked much about the the other football are American variety of football, which is which has some interesting, I think aspects related to what we're talking about. I mean for one thing it's probably the most. No sporting spectacle that has more cameras. You know it's it's made for TV clearly. And, and there's a lot of precision and yet there's still this traditional romance I love the, the chains that get trotted out to measure whether it's a first down, you know when really that there's technologies to do that measurement, but but the thing that fascinates me the most about American football and its incorporation of technology is the fact that we have now incorporated into the tactics of the game. Whether or not you want to call upon this technology with you know you and you know with each coach having a limited number of times, you know, to throw the red flag to go to that review and that's kind of an interesting idea that you don't want to review everything too closely because of the flow that concerns that Kristen mentioned maybe because you know the stakes aren't as high in every play, but certainly if it's last two minutes, they're high enough that then the officials will have will mandate those reviews, but then to kind of like bake that into the game itself where it's up to the coaches I don't know that just seems like this another interesting element of like making that part of the sort of adversarial process and the game. If anybody has a reaction to that. It seems quite interesting how in, you know, it definitely affects the flow and some teams are great with fast pace and some aren't and recovery and, you know, you see these big swings and stops and things like this so I think that there's that balance and sometimes we're not in balance with with using technology and on the on the reference side. However, you know you look at calls like a receiver catching the ball and then making a football move. So, you know, how do you, when you're looking frame by frame how do you really, and it's not live, you know understanding how much of a football move is just there's still within tech there's still a lot of subjective interference in there so you know it's it's just interesting to see how the flow of the game does change. In fact, there is so much subjective also interjected into the tech because like how do you quantify a football move per se how many steps is that how many frames is that and it's not truly defined.  Yeah flow of the game is super interesting, especially in terms of tennis when there is no clock. Before Hawkeye live you actually got a certain amount of challenges per set you had three challenges per set and that was on your own initiative so one of the earlier times is during my junior career, and I'm looking up to my father like it's just the time do I challenge and I'm not really allowed to look to him but you only get three, you don't need and if you're correct, you still have three. So it only it's on your end to say hey, I really believe this was the time. Now we're at the point where Hawkeye live is like hey I'm going to tell you if it's around your deal with it. But yeah the flow is super interesting, especially in terms of the tennis where we already struggled with it. I think to see how it flows into the soccer world or European football, you know flopping happens to be a large part of the game we don't know where technology is going to go in that direction. And I do see in terms of accessibility for fans for players for everybody involved, you know, does it take away an aspect of the sport, you know, is that going to add to, you know, how we see soccer flowing in the future going to bring more Americans because the excitement is there, or is, you know, going on the ground for about a minute and a half like you got shot is that part of the spectacle of soccer, you know I'm curious to see how that goes. I think I think tennis needs more flopping. Let me know. But anyways, the boss is back I see Mia. This felt like I knew this was going to fly by but this felt like three minutes. This has been so much fun but Mia I know you want to, maybe we have a couple of quick questions from the audience because we're up against the hours. Yeah, yeah we have a bunch of audience questions so I'm going to try and get to as many as possible and so if you all could try and keep your answers concise that would be great. I'll start with this one from William Jordan. And I think Dave maybe I can direct this one to you. So he says, Are there applications of any of our technology outside of the sports world that have occurred or that seem foreseeable. I think you already mentioned a couple examples but maybe you could expand a little bit on that. I think, as I mentioned the realm of law enforcement for video is really quite profound and astonishing analogy because, again, it suggests that that it's, you know, the technology doesn't solve our value problems for us. It doesn't tell us what's valuable in the game it doesn't tell us immediately whether somebody is innocent or guilty it gives us the opportunity to record something that happened and then reinterpret it. And we see that again and again with the different ways that the different courts have treated body cams, and then we see responses to that where for example in the state of Arizona the legislature then passed a law after the George Floyd murder that said that people were not allowed to videotape police within eight feet of the police and that was recently decided to be unconstitutional, but it means and I think sort of like as Andre said, you know, in American football how it was incorporated into the strategy this becomes another thing to play in with and around. Yeah, thanks Dave. And I have another one here for you, Noah. And you started to touch on this but the question is, does it feel different to play under a tech versus a human referee and particularly does tech refereeing increase the pressure that you feel as an athlete and I think, you know, this is interesting I know a lot of your, your work focuses on athlete mental health now so so maybe you could touch on that aspect. I know it is super unique I think, you know I'm a non traditionalist in the world of tennis I'm looking to evolve in as many ways as possible, but it does I mean the traditional sense of having people behind you even though they're usually in my way and I'm running into them I don't feel bad for that but you know having that tech, it does take away that that tennis field to it is what we're known and and how we've kind of grown up with that and you know you know you never see so many eyes glued to a screen that when a player challenges a call. Like Roger Federer challenged his 2017 Australian Open Championship it was the against Raphael Nadal it was the match point and you have you know we're talking about 10 million people glued to a screen to see a ball that was two millimeters wide and I think there's something behind that and in terms of the players. Yeah I actually think they're the technology goes the other way and it does help you know you don't have to rely on the human aspect of it and there's nothing like walking off a court and knowing that you deserve something rightfully, and it was just human I completely missed something and and for that that stuff that sticks, I can you know overcome the fact that I lost it was on my terms it was my fault I missed a ball totally get that, but it was somebody else that missed a call, just due to the fact that their eye glanced the wrong way a bug flew by them a strong breeze came in the wrong direction whatever the case may be. It's a lot of pressure to put on either person and I think it's up the game drastically. Kristen, here's a question for you and it goes back to the point you raise about athletes adapting to systems. And that kind of dynamic raises another question which is, who's developing these systems and are they being developed fairly and so the question is, do you think there's being enough done to include different athletes in the development process of some of these these technologies. I do I think I'm a solution based person compared to like tech being pushed down into sport. I've, I've for the last 20 years and 13 Olympic games have really focused on finding solutions for our teams and there's just becoming a bit of a marriage between those so I do feel like we are going in the right direction because the questions that were asking as coaches and athletes. How can I get faster how can I worse the acceleration deceleration happening, like all of these things timing systems, you know, AI VR all of this. It's helping the athletes just become more efficient and really, you know, helping in recovery injury prevention all of this, and it just so happens it's coming from the other side as well. And so what I'm finding when I work with the big tech companies and AI companies that we're finding a really nice marriage in between of how can we use what they're building for our benefit. And then they ask us how can we use some of the AI analysis tools that you use, how can we use it to help better the game make it more fair but also make it more efficient so I do feel like we're heading in the right direction and I do think that a lot of it is coming from the athlete performance side of things. Great. And we have about two minutes left here so Christine I'll give you the last question here. And this is another question. It says would making the communications between the VR booth and on field referees or the calculations made by automated systems public improved transparency. I know you have two minutes it's funny because usually TV sometimes gives me two seconds to answer this question. The answer is yes, it would be and the reason there was a bit of hesitation out of the gate and understandably so is you are implementing technology for the first time ever with officials of over 20 years of experience officiating in one way so there was a learning curve for the foul right sometimes we knew the foul was there because internally we knew it right from some of the considerations but we were not yet used to saying, based on X, Y and Z this is why it is verbally and then working with our teammates. Now that we've had and it's still in its infancy right so 2017 was when MLS used it 2018 is when the other league started using it FIFA so it's still within less than seven years of its use. Now that we have kind of gone and we see it more consistently throughout tournaments. Now is the question of allowing more communication and rugby does a very good job of this the Australian football I believe as well does where they release more that communication and it allows the viewers to understand better what is that we're communicating so that will be happening. FIFA right now still doesn't want it but the reality is that will happen within the next five years. Great. Well thanks so much, Christina. That was a very quick answer to a tricky question and thank you all. All of our panelists for for joining us today and for sharing your expertise. Unfortunately this is all the time we have but please continue to join future tense for additional events you can find more information about our events at www.future-tense and future tense as a reminder is a partnership between Arizona State University, New America and slate. So until next time thank you all so much and take care.


So, we have very little time, but I will just quickly give you an overview of how this course is going to be conducted and what roles you might be playing will be given in detail in a later lecture in this evening, but this is an overall picture of the course and you are of course free to talk to us or any of our project managers during this breaks. Okay, so this course will be conducted in a blended model, okay. So, I am going to tell you what a blended model is and this is for the first time that we are doing this, although we have done parts of this before, but first time we are trying this in this mission. So, the blended model essentially is a blend of an online and offline or a face-to-face part.  So, the online part again has two components, one is what is known as MOOCs, I will explain that in a short while and the MOOCs platform that we will be using is called as IIT Bombay X and the second portion in online is called the Moodle which is also an online platform for taking courses and the face-to-face things will have again two important participants where you who are the local center coordinators will be interacting face-to-face with people who come to your local centers and all of you that is you and the students of the teachers who come to your center will be connected remotely to a audio video link with faculty from IIT Bombay. So, this will be the face-to-face part and this will be the online part. So, essentially what people will be doing is some kind of a flip classroom where this participants who come for the workshop in December will first get exposed to the content that is available online they will carry out some exercises there and they already come prepared in a certain level. They come prepared in a certain level they have to go through assignments and all I will go through that detail and then they attend what is a classroom or a face-to-face interaction. So, this combined thing of an online and offline online preceding offline is called the flip classroom and this course will be done in this blended model. So, I will go into the details of it in case some of you are not aware MOOCs stands for massively open online course. So, massive because it will have shown that it can handle up to 2 lakh participants per course not the total number of participants per course 2 lakh participants and it is open in the sense that anybody can join usually there is no charge for joining and the format in this MOOCs is like this that there are very short videos usually 5 to 10 minutes maximum 15 but none of them are 15 but usually around 10 minutes and they are followed by very short self-assessments. So, in the online platform people when they view a particular lecture soon after that they are given a very short quiz just based on what they have learned very simple recollection of facts and understanding what has been not detailed assignments and then there is a discussion forum where they can post questions that instructors may answer or somebody else may answer usually the participation for this MOOCs is free anybody can join you can register there are several MOOCs platform to join but only if you want to get a certificate that you have completed the course that you need to pay and you can get register courses throughout the world. In fact, a typical cost in the US would be something like 25 dollars per course or something like that. So, that is MOOCs one portion the second thing is called as the Moodle some of you might be already using Moodle in your colleges. So, Moodle is also like a predecessor to this MOOCs and it had all the components that is currently available in MOOCs but only thing was Moodle was not scalable it can take only few thousands at a time at a time it cannot go to the large number. So, the whole concept behind this was rewritten and they rediscovered or reinvented something which is which can go massive. So, the purpose of both are the same except that one can handle a large number of participants at the same time. So, in this we will be using Moodle for offline assessment and peer evaluation that you submit something and it is evaluated by your own peers you evaluate others which is currently not possible in the MOOCs platform. So, which is why we have to use both these together. So, in IIT Bombay X which is the MOOCs platform which we are going to use the self assessments are like this. So, after every shot there will be a self assessment. So, some things will be very quick like fill in the blanks multiple choice and so on which will to recollect what you have immediately what you have heard you just need to fill up. So, it just reinforces what you have and listen to it is not like very detail solve a problem or something like very quick recollection of facts or some message will be given and you need to interpret that message. So, examples would be true false statements or multiple choice or fill in the blanks and so on or match the columns and so on. This one happens every week ok. Every week you have this every week a set of lectures are uploaded set of about 5 to 10 lectures are each of 10 minute duration and after every 10 minute duration they have to answer the quiz and then that is done or they might be a detailed submission. So, this 10 video lectures and the quiz submission this quiz submission will be the following week ok. So, you have one week to listen and one week to submit and the second form of assessment the online assessment will be peer evaluation. So, peer evaluation essentially means peer means we are all peers the participants in this course are peers of the other participants in this course. The actual participants in this course are those teachers who will be coming to your. So, let us say there are about 5000 teachers. So, these 5000 teachers will be enrolled to this IIT Bombay X as well as Moodle and they will participate in this peer evaluation. So, this could be subjective evaluations like you ask them to write a report or you ask them to write a summary ok and then how do we evaluate how do you evaluate 10000 5000 papers we cannot do that practically. So, what we do is we give them set of guidelines how to evaluate. So, what you should look for in a good writing what you should look for in a good presentation. So, all this is given as a set of criteria and against each criteria participate evaluate other participants. So, usually the way how do you grade them the grade is given was 80 percent of a total mark for a particular assignment is given for how much marks you got by 5 others who evaluated you and then 20 percent is given for how good you evaluated others suppose you have an assignment and how good you are to the how close you are to the average mark that person got. Suppose you it is all done anonymously. So, you do not know whom you are evaluating. So, suppose you consistently give very bad grade to somebody you will get less than 20 percent. Suppose you give consistently super grades for a person then also you will stand to lose. So, this way you are bound to give a as good or correct evaluation we do not know what correct is, but in general that average out to be the same how good you are close to the average marks is the way you are evaluated for your evaluation. So, this was the online part and then the offline part what we have is we have these remote centers for us it is remote for the teachers who join for them it is local. So, people in Gujarat will probably go to some center there from people from south will go somewhere there and so on. So, all these centers remote centers for us or local centers for you will have teachers registering there and coming to attend the workshop in December. So, that will be the face to face part. Now, the online part will be spread over 5 weeks. So, 5 weeks of online content and then 5 days of December face to face workshop. So, first they will go through this online content and then come for this remote so, local centers there. So, all this is done after they have listened to their online part and they are all these centers are all connected by a audio video link. So, that we can see all the centers and suppose we switch on one particular center that particular centers somebody is making a presentation in one article we will just beam that to all the centers everybody can see. If somebody asks a question and then we respond to them all that everybody else will listen.  So, for online this participation and now you come to the center remote center. Yes, they have to come. So, I will go through the I know there will be lot of questions and let me just quickly do this we have lot of time to discuss again tomorrow morning we will discuss this one. So, the interaction that happens here is with course coordinators which is you you are the course coordinators in the local centers. So, these people will come there and take this and we will also be connected remotely.  So, now you will get a feeling in this five days what will happen in the five weeks as well as what will happen in the five days of workshop. So, this is going to be very intense. So, it is good from morning 9 o'clock till 5.45 in the evening it is going to be a continuous this of course we have breaks we will try to keep it as entertaining as possible, but it is going to be very heavy because we are going to cover a lot of them we will not cover everything definitely not possible just give you a feel of what are things that are going to come. And then that will help you coordinate your individual centers. So, how this course can be used later. So, this course can be used by colleges who have this technical communication in their curriculum most have, but the syllabus might be slightly different. So, what it can be done what can be done later is the students the actual undergraduate or post graduate students enroll themselves for free in IIT Bombay X and they will learn the subjects online. And then complete the self-assignments and then the college instructors who are this instructors who come for this course like those teachers those 5000 teachers will be conducting these classes. And these people students who have finished those lectures online will come to their classroom say one week they will listen of one week of lecture online they will have a classroom activity face to face. So, just as those teachers had face to face with us the students will have face to face with them, but the students would have gone through the same online initiation first and then they will come to the classroom. So, then essentially they will be using IIT Bombay X for a flip classroom. So, this is the broad idea of this whole course that it can sustain over a large time. So, now to give you a feel of what the kind of online quizzes that would be for example, it could be very short question like this. So, you can try this now for yourself. Choose the correct statements from below. Now I have given you a 10 minute presentation. This will be presentation that would be seen by a typical course a typical lecture in the actual course. So, following that we will have examinations like this. So, choose the statements from below. Moodle is a MOOC platform true or false? False. Online self-assessment are conducted through IIT Bombay X. True. Participants of a course evaluate other participants by peer assessments. True. Moodle is a brand of blended noodles. True. False. It is false. It is not noodles. Without lead content. Okay. During face to face workshop participants have to come to IIT Bombay. No. False. So, they come to the local centers. So, something like this. So, quickly now I have presented a very short thing in a very short of information in a very short time. But how much you are able to assimilate. So, if you have a if you have not listened to something you just go rewind the video and play it again. So, this is what the teachers will be doing. This is what the students will be doing later. Okay. Fill in the blanks. Video lectures in IIT Bombay are of minute. Home assignments are to be submitted in the dash platform. Face to face workshop are also called as IIT Bombay is dash based on dash platform. Okay. This was not covered here but it was very fast. IIT Bombay is a MOOCs based on open edX platform. Okay. So, open edX which people have modified it a little for our periodic activity in IIT Bombay is of dash duration. One week. Okay. So, things like this. Okay. So, this will be the kind of quick assessments that follows a video lecture followed by detail assessments which will be peer evaluated. Okay. So, detail assessments will be like this. So, detail assessments will have something. Right. Some assignment and this summarize it and then there will be how to evaluate. So, how good was the quality of work? It was extensively covered. Only one or two MOOCs were presented. So, the question is find out what are the other MOOCs platforms and they write a small essay. Now, that essay has to be evaluated by others. So, they look at how many MOOCs platform record very good. This is average. This is poor. This is again very good average poor. So, you just need to see how to evaluate. So, this way you have a quick evaluation but you can scale up the evaluation to several thousands easily. Okay. So, I will stop here. We will have a short break. We have little over short time but we should come back here by 10.45. Thank you.


Good evening, friends of the creaking door. This is your host to welcome you once again into the inner sanctum. Come on in and never mind looking back over your shoulder. Whatever it is that's behind you can't be half as bad as what's in front. As the man whose throat had just been made the scene of an experiment with a razor while he slept said, I'm going from bed to hers. Settle down now, it's coming and there's nothing you can do about it.  Joe Harris, 21, wearing a cheap blue surge suit and a thin top coat. Cold and wet on a cold and rainy night decides to make a change. Kansas City's okay but there's nothing there for me. I've got to get out. My wardrobe ain't built for a hard winter so I figure it could be more comfortable on the coast, California. But I ain't paying for rail transportation this year so I head for the KC freight yards. And I pick me out a nice long freight job that happens to have an empty car and pull a sliding door over. Leave it just a crack for air and finger hole for when we reach the land of oranges. The old boiler up front's got the steamer and we're off. I relax. All I gotta do is let a couple of days slide by and sunshine. I didn't notice nobody else was in the car. Didn't you now, Pally? No, that's too bad. He leaned back into the darkness of his corner so I couldn't see him very good. He was a young guy, maybe my age, maybe a couple years older. My size too. Same color hair and eyes. Almost close enough to be brothers but there was something in his eyes that had never been in mine. I was scared. You know, some funny. You look like me. Yeah, I kinda noticed that myself in a- Why?  Huh? Nobody looks like me. Well, okay, so I don't. You're trying to. That means you must be one of... One of what? There are ways of changing their appearance. You're one of them. You can't fool me. Look, I don't know what you're talking about. It's no use. You can't fool me. I'll have to punish you. Watch out with that knife and I'll cut the resemblance away and find out what you really look like. You're crazy. Stop it. It's your heart. The door. Slide it open. The odd book. Now they're sliding doors. Why don't they snap a private? Give me a hand, Charlie. Okay. You locked it. No, I can't get out. There I was. Locked in with him. In the dark. He was dead, so I wasn't afraid of him. At first. I... I even gave him a going over. His eyes were open, but I... I flopped him over. And I went through his pockets. Just a couple of bucks and some small change and... his draft card. Funny. He was 4F, just like me. His name was Martin Pell. That's a laugh, too.  Kill him? Yeah. I was a murderer. I just realized it. They'll hang me for that. No. No, it was self-defense, but... but what chance have I got a proven that? Me with a record, too. Maybe I can lose that record. Maybe. Yeah. So I switched draft cards with him. And now he's Joe Harris. And I'm Martin Pell. Martin Pell, love, that says on his card... of Wysey, Oklahoma. And the hours go by. And I'm there with him locked in a box car. And the wheels keep pounding underneath. And he's dead. I gotta get out. I gotta be away. The door. I gotta think. Think. We'll stop. Now what? We'll stop. Maybe they won't spot him. Anyways, I gotta get out. I'll yell. I'll yell and I'll pound on the door. Yeah, that's the way. They're sure. It's against the law-riding afraid. Yeah, yeah, I know. Or maybe it's a hump you remember. No. As I could, I got away from there. But he didn't spot the body under the sack. And the train started up. And it began moving away.  With a knife in his heart. Funny look in his eyes. Martin Pell. There's only a water in stop where the train stopped. So I walked across the prairie. Not knowing where I was going and not caring much. Well, I... I keep walking across the dark face of the land until I spot a light. A couple of lights. The small town it looked like. The small town. Some ways. Where? Right on the edge of town. There's a lunch wagon and it's open. And there's a light shining on it. And I'm hungry. So I go into the lunch wagon. How about something to eat, huh? Sure thing, Martin. Sure thing. What did you say? I said sure you can have something to eat, Martin. What it be? Why, you ought to know, Martin. This is Wysey. Wysey, Oklahoma. Wysey, but... But that's the same place he... It can't be. Oh, that's no way to talk about your own hometown. Of course, you've been away quite a few years. You look good now. Wouldn't you say I've changed? Oh, no, Morden's not true. Of course, you're only around 16 when you left. Kind of an advanced 16, though. Yeah? Hey, many kids of that age would have stuck up the bank. Knocked off the night watchman. I... I killed him. Oh, don't get modest, fella. Sure. Old man Henshaw. Hey, hey, I was near forgetting. You said you're hungry. Not anymore. Oh, come on, have something to eat. Don't you believe in putting anything in your stomach before doing a job? Doing a job? Me? Why do you think I sent for him? Why should I promise you a grand? I... I don't remember. Oh, for Pete's sake, Martin, how many men have you killed that you don't remember a job like this? Never mind the acts. Play it straight, huh? Okay, okay, don't get nasty. It's too late to talk business anyway. Come on, I've got a room fixed up for you in back. Get a good night's sleep. We'll talk in the morning. About an old man that's lived way past his time. About how you were going to take care of that. Martin, I sent for you because I need money. I ain't got any. My uncle has. Old man Karoo. Well, get it from him. When he dies, I will. So?  Oh, I got a grand in cash. That's yours. For what? For my uncle, Don, a little earlier than expecting. No dies. No dies? Martin, you take care of old man Karoo. Sir, help me. I'll turn you in on that bank job. Go ahead. Turn me in. I can prove that I...   Sure, I could prove I wasn't Martin Pell, that I'd never been in wisy Oklahoma before in my life. Sure. But to do that, I'd have to admit I was Joe Harris. And when they found that corpse in the boxcar with my draft card on him, that'd be fine. A lot of attention the jury had paid to my plea of self-defense. No witnesses and me on the lam and me switching draft cards and panic. Sure, even the hangman had burst out laughing when he slipped a noose around my neck.  Blitz was watching me close. And then I said... Okay, Blitz. It's a deal. What's the layout? The trees will cover the car in case anybody happens to be out late on the highway. Can't be too careful. Ain't that so, Martin? That's so. It's only a short walk. Let's get going. Oh, uh, here. You better take this. What? Oh. A tire iron. I picked it up in a junkyard. They never trace it to me. It's for an old man crew. They bobbing? I ain't used to them. Anymore, huh? Old man crew never bleeding behind curtains for the windows. There he is. Rockin' in his chair. They watch the porch step. It's busted. I guess we knock. It's polite. What's it now? Uncle crew is to come in. Brought a visitor. An old friend of yours. And so it is. Martin Pell. Yeah, it wasn't any good. Thank you, Blitz. All right, you visited. And it cooled out. It was a chance to warm up, huh? I'll do what you do. Oh, forbidden. Go on, Martin. What? He ain't looking this way. Now's the time. All right. I ain't gonna. Here's an old man. Give me the iron. What do you give it to me? All right here. Uncle. Uncle. I've got quite a bit of dough on him. Martin, take the money. It's your payment. No. I'll put it in your pocket myself. That's very important.  What are you talking about? Karoo and knowing you're Reg and Martin, they'll never look for anybody else. Now, when they find you on the premises with the old man's dough in your pocket and your fingerprints on the tire and... No! After I... I was walking up a long flight of stairs with nothing at the top, but more stairs and more stairs and my head was hurting. And then I woke up. Woke up, lying outside of old man Karoo's house with a bloodstained tire iron in my hand. I let go of it. I pulled myself to my feet. And then I heard cars. They were coming. And there I still was. I had to get away fast. I didn't know the country, but I was hunted and a hunted animal's got an instinct to hide the run and to hide from the killers. I didn't find me that day because I fooled them. I didn't try getting out of the county, getting away from the town. Oh, no. That's where they were watching for me. So I stayed put close to town, which fooled them. And also, I had a job to do. Who is it? Me. What are you doing here? I got paid for a killing I didn't do. So I figure maybe I better do a killing now for no pay at all. Stay where you are. No, we're alone here. Uh-uh. I got this knife. No. Bliss, you got a pencil. A pencil? Yeah, sure.  No. I got the knife against your heart. Sit down and write. All right. Well, just write, I killed. I killed. My uncle, because I wanted his money. You got it? Good. Now sign your name pretty. I... I signed it. Take that knife away. Sure. After I... Yeah. Goodbye, Mr. Bliss. Now I better put the knife in your hand like this.  You committed suicide, Mr. Bliss. That's what you did. And now they'll stop looking for me. I hold in and waited until they found Bliss. So the law was called off. There was nobody to look for. So I headed for the water and stopped in the freight because it was cold and I was heading for sunshine. There was a train getting ready to head for the coast so I sneaked close to it. And the far side, there was a couple of bulls around, chewing the rag, but they didn't see me. I spotted an open box car and I climbed in. I got away from the door. The bulls were coming along checking. One of them sounded like the guy that had thrown me off the night before. Ah, this time I didn't care. I was hoping he'd locked the door on me. So I curled up in a corner and waited.  Quite a wreck. Held up the line for 24 hours. The train here had already pulled out when word came into the wreck up ahead so they backed her right back here and let her stand. Alright, she's out of her way now. One of them sliding doors is open. Come here. If this is the same train, it can't be. This car. If it's the same train, this sack would be over there. Let me see. Yeah, it's the sack. And under it. Yeah, it's him. Me and Martin. The killer. As for poor Joe who couldn't keep out of boxcars, he was a nice boy but he couldn't stay put. I guess they'll give him the order of the rolling stone. Tombstone. And to leave you with a happy... Whenever you hear a freight train whistling in the night, think of Joe and wonder, if he's still in it with Martin rattling. Well, friends, it's time once again to close that creaking door until next week at the same time when we'll be back with a little hunk of horror. You'll be sure to listen or two. Until next week then. Good night. Pleasant dreams. Inner Sanctum has come to you through the worldwide facilities of the United States Armed Forces Radio and Television Service.


The Joint Sustainment Academy Southwest trains Afghan national security forces in a variety of specialties that are essential for the development of their forces. In the new tactical leaders course at the academy, Afghan officers are taught leadership and tactical maneuvers at the platoon level. It is good because once we graduate from here, we can teach our soldiers to do different things we have learned. During the training, the students were given a scenario and they had to develop a plan of execution and then breathe their soldiers on their roles in completing the mission. The students conducted multiple exercises where they learned to react to an ambush, conduct an ambush and break contact from the enemy. The students still have four weeks of training to complete, where they will learn about everything from mounted and dismounted patrolling to defensive operations and tactical operations center procedures. Reporting from Camp Leatherneck, Helmand Province, I'm Corporal Meredith Brown.


So it looks like we were all right about the JK Dobbins situation, especially with the video where we talked about it just seemed like the Ravens and JK Dobbins were in a really, really weird sort of place. Now, just to clear some things up, initially there was a report that came out that said JK Dobbins was holding in, but nothing said that he was holding in. He'd never confirmed if he was holding in or not. He never confirmed or even denied if he was dealing with an injury or not. And with JK Dobbins, if he was to hold in, that would be tough because his position, we talked about it yesterday, how the running back position is devalued now more than ever. And teams feel like more than ever nowadays, like, oh, you want to hold out? Oh, you don't want to play? Oh, we can get somebody like you who can do the same things you can do before a lot cheaper. So I don't feel like holding in would be the best thing for JK Dobbins to do. Had he been a quarterback, they hold out, that changes everything. Even a wide receiver in some instances, a tight end offensive lineman, but running back is just a position where it just don't hit the same like it used to. And JK Dobbins obviously got all the skill in the world. He can play, he can ball. But even if we look at his situation specifically with the Baltimore Ravens, it's tough, man. And I feel for him too, because he want to get his bread, man. He said it in an interview that he had on WJZ with Mark Viviano. He talked about this is something that we knew was going on already based off of the tweets. We know that we knew the tweets that he was putting out there. It wasn't no coincidence. But he talked about, hey, I love Baltimore, I love the city, I love the fans. I would love to stay here for my whole career, but I don't know if that's going to happen. Nobody just tweets that randomly. So there must have been some conversations about the business side. And that is something that JK Dobbins, he did confirm. He said he's been dealing with the business side. And then he just reiterated what he said in those tweets. He just he said it with his words. He said, hey, I love the city. I love the fans. I want to be here. But the business side is tough. He referenced Lamar Jackson in his situation and Howard just it wasn't always pretty because it wasn't. There were some times with Lamar Jackson, it got really, really ugly.  They both compromised and they came to an agreement. But there were some times it wasn't looking so good, man. It really wasn't looking so good. I remember somebody in the comments section. And they were like, oh, we felt the same way within the video where we talked about it. I feel like the Ravens and JK Dobbins were in a really weird place. Somebody in the comments section was said, well, we felt the same thing about Lamar Jackson going into this all season. And look how that turned out. And I say, well, yeah, because they were in a weird place. They were in a very weird place because we remember like one of the biggest things was the John Harbaugh presser. The John Harbaugh presser. I think it was his pre-drive press. I think I forgot which one it was. But it's like as soon as John Harbaugh went live, as soon as he started talking, as soon as their presser started, that's when Lamar dropped the bombshell. Oh, I want to be traded for in the Ravens. And it was scary. It was very scary. But we're glad how everything worked out. Now with JK Dobbins, will everything work out the same way? Will there be that same resolution like Lamar Jackson got with the Ravens but for JK Dobbins? Right now, I honestly don't see it right now. Now, I didn't see it initially with Lamar Jackson and the Ravens, but this is a much different situation because teams ain't looking at quarterbacks like, oh, we can find. Well, actually, some of them can sometimes, but depending on the quarterback, but a lot of teams ain't looking at a quarterback like, hey, well, we can find somebody else to replace you for much cheaper and get that same production. But at least the Ravens ain't looking at Lamar like that. They glad they didn't look at Lamar like that. They're thinking sometimes they were going to, but they didn't. So that was good. But with JK Dobbins, like, and I didn't even realize until I read Jameson Hensley's article about it yesterday, where he said that JK Dobbins actually has missed more games than he's played in his career. I didn't I did not even realize that. And again, you just feel for JK Dobbins because he's in such a tough spot because the position he plays, teams ain't like they ain't going all out for running backs like that no more. Like they used to. Levy on bail, he was a trendsetter. He was really trying to shift that, really trying to change the game. And he did a little bit when he got that deal with the Jets or whatnot. But he really with the Steelers, he really tried and Steelers, they just they like, no, we ain't going for it. Seguin Barclay is currently trying right now. And there was a report that came out that the the Giants had offered him a deal worth up to 14 mil per year. Obviously, we got to get like the back story and all that. And it's the details of the contract, if that's even accurate. So but he's trying. He's trying because running back is a very, very tough market for them. It's a tough market for them because nobody wants to pay running backs like that. They'll draft them. They even draft them in the first round. Jean Robinson, there was the other running back that got drafted in the first round. Got his name, my apologies. But they'll draft them. They'll draft them first round, second round, third round. They'll draft them whenever. But when it comes to paying them, Zeke got paid. He was the highest paid running back in the league. And he got cut. Ty Gurley, he was the highest paid running back in the league one time. Daven Cook, one of the best running backs in the league. He's a free agent. He got cut. So the position is just it's not it doesn't get treated how it used to. Teams don't hold the same value at running back that they used to. So that's why for J.K. Dobbins, his situation is very, very hard. It's extremely hard. Because he's in a tough position on a team that likes to run the ball. No doubt. But they do a lot of running back by committee now. Another reason it makes it so tough for him is because of the injuries that he's suffered in the past and possibly something he's going through right now. I'm not sure we don't know. But even if if he is if he isn't dealing with an injury right now, I mean, training camp is six weeks away, so we'll see then. But with J.K. Dobbins, it really did seem like and we talked about this before, it seemed like Ravens will get ready to be like, all right, J.K. Dobbins here, it's all yours in 2021. It seemed like that because he got drafted what 2020? Yeah, second round in 2020, he got drafted, I believe. And he showed some stuff that year. But then it seemed like I like J.K. Here you go. Do you take off, my friend, go do what you about to do. But then the commander's preseason game started still playing first series, by the way, very, very beginning of the game, first series, first drive, offensive line, all playing together for the first time in the preseason. And a block was missed by the center, Bradley Bowsman, I believe, and that was a wrap for J.K. Dobbins, took him out for the year. And it really seemed like that was going to be the year where he was the guy really did, but he didn't get that opportunity. Never got it. And then, as we know, last year, he came back a little late and he came back and he looked solid, but he just didn't look all the way himself. And then he had to clean up surgery. Then he came back and he looked a lot better, looked a lot more confident. And John Hallbaugh had said during the season when he got that surgery, he said, J.K. wanted that surgery because J.K. didn't feel like he was J.K. Dobbins that we all know and love. He said he didn't feel like he was himself, so he wanted that surgery. So he got it. And again, he looked better, he looked better when he came back. But he still wasn't all the way back, but just the injuries have the injuries mixed with the market. Just they make this so tough for J.K. And I feel for him big time because we know what he can do. We know what he can do. And then on top of that, too, another reason he's in such a tough position. The offense is expected to make significant changes. It's expected to go a lot more in the direction of passing more than running more. And we'll see again, my hope is that it's a game by game basis. Whatever's working, a keep at it, whatever's working. But with the shift in the possible shifting direction of the offense that could play a role, too. Somebody brought up in the comments section. They did talk about the shift in the offense, but they talked about with J.K. Dobbins, also him sharing the backfield with the combination of a shift in offense and him sharing the backfield. All that that happened. And at the same time, it's just not it is killing his leverage, man. It kills any leverage that he would have. If he were to hold out or even hold in, which I don't think he is doing. But I don't know. So I just he just in such a tough position, man, with all of those things that are going on, the market are running backs, the ravens, how they do running backs, right? Well, not how they do running backs, but just where they are at running back right now and how they've been has been running back by committee. And then with the new offense and with the injuries and then with him sharing the backfield and with all just is just a bad combination for him right now. So in my opinion, I'm no expert as y'all know, but in my opinion, the best thing that J.K. Dobbins could do the best thing is go out there and show out that that is the best thing J.K. Dobbins could do go out there. This year is contract year and a I can't I can't I can't tell somebody. Don't think about next year. Don't think about the future because of course you're going to be thinking about the future. It's a business. In this business, a lot of times you don't even know your future. So you don't know what's going to happen next year. Not even next week sometimes, but for J.K. Dobbins, I think the best thing that he could possibly do, go out there and ball out, do what you can do, make the most of every opportunity because who know the opportunities may not come as frequently as he hopes. They may not, especially with him sharing the backfield. They may not, especially with him sharing the backfield. But go out there and go do your thing and whether it ends up being with the Ravens or whether it ends up being with another team next year, go play for that contract, play for that contract and show not only the Ravens, but show the NFL why you still feel like you deserve some good money. Shoulder. Yeah, that's all you can do. Because again, his situation is so tough, but I really do hope it works out for him big time because again, we know he could play. That ain't an issue. That ain't a question. That ain't nothing right there. But now it's about, all right, what's going to happen next? What's going to happen next health-wise and then what's going to happen next contract-wise? So we'll see how it goes. Anyway, team keep it clean. I appreciate y'all. I love y'all so much. And I hope y'all are just being good to other people, but not only being good to other people, but being good to yourselves too.  Because that's important, man. It's really, really, really important. And y'all are important. So I appreciate y'all. I hope y'all are having a great Friday. I know yesterday I got a little bit rough with the news. Unfortunately, it just sucks, man. It's really sad. It's a sad world that we live in that has a lot of sad things going on every single day and we get reminders of those, whether it's from people we know, whether it's from the news, whether it's from TV, media, social media, whether it's from whatever. We get so many reminders of all the bad stuff that happens in the world on a daily. That's why I think it's so important to try as best we can to just spread positivity with people. Try to be good to people. Try to be nice to people. Try to encourage people. Try to make people's days brighter. Try to make people happy. Just whatever you can to try to just make somebody be a better version of themselves and be a happier version of themselves. Because we already get too much negativity as is. I love y'all though. I appreciate y'all and we out.