OK, well, I'm going to call this meeting to order. Thank you, everyone, for coming out tonight. The second item on the list today is adjournment, actually. So we're going to post it on that one. Look at the man. We're going to, OK. You sort of helped the beauty get over. Yeah, right. So anyway, so we're going to review and approve the agenda. I think there may be an item that we need to pull off of the consent agenda, but we'll talk about that then. And I know that we have a request that was otherwise not on our agenda. And so we'll do that sort of rolled into general visits and appearances, and that's fine. But other than that, I think there had been some addendums, but I think they are all online. Does the other half of the room like to have lights? Would you like the lights on? Do you like the lights on, Matt? Just turn it. OK, cool. You look dark. Super. Very dark, Matt, there. OK, there we go. OK, yeah, so we're going to, so without any objection, we'll consider the agenda approved. And we have a very first item to go with general business appearances. Yeah, could Chief Robert Gowens come forward? So I'm looking around the room, and I think I can tell, but a quick show of hands. How many of you are under 40 years old in this room? OK, then for your entire life, Robert Gowens has been in the Montpelier Fire Department. We're going to present him his 40-year pin serving us as a firefighter, deputy chief, and now chief of command. That is a long time to be dedicated to our city, and we appreciate all your work.  Thank you for all your work, Bob. Appreciate all you do. All right, so. Someone I told you had to come to the meeting tonight, now you can go. I was wondering why you wanted to go to the meeting. Awesome. All right, so other general business and appearances. Yeah, nice working. Just working? OK, we're back in business. Good evening. My name is Zach Hughes. I'm from the Prospect Street neighborhood. And I rise for many reasons tonight. And one of them is, first, I want to thank Chief Fakos of our Montpelier Police Department for making himself available for our local standing committee at Washington County Mental Health right here in Montpelier. We spoke for about 45 minutes or 30 minutes or so. Something like that. It was a long dialogue, and it was very productive. And we hope to continue the dialogue in general throughout the city as we continue to move forward and learn from the events of that early August morning. I also want to thank Chief Fakos for that, and continue to show support for the Montpelier Police Department. Also, I would like to announce that my volunteer-based organization, which I'll send information to you separately, has separate of the task force. I repeat, separate of the housing task force has launched a street team, which is dedicated to responding to needs of people on the street who may need such supplies as sleeping bags, tents, so on. So we are starting that out little venture. And we've been getting donations here and there, which is good, and we'll continue to do that. So I just wanted to announce that. Again, that is separate of the task force. So I don't want there to be any confusion there. And once more, and I would like to just close by thanking the city of Montpelier for being open to the climate protests that we had last week. It was rather interesting, but I will say I appreciate the openness of the city. Thank you very much. Good evening, Richard Shear from Loomis Street. And I've come tonight on one of these questions that come every so often on that information, getting information from the city in a timely basis and an organized basis. And I want to harken back to one time that it wasn't me. It was my wife who was here. And the question was street closures for events, which at the time was fairly haphazard. Events would show up and no one would know that the street was going to be closing downtown. And the city council put together, along with the police chief, put together a form. And people circulate that form to those who are involved. And it's a process that works. And it works really well. And it works because it's predictable. You know exactly what's going to happen when. In terms of information requests that come in to the various city departments, particularly the city that's coordinated by the city manager, what I would like to see is you guys be informed of the information requests that are sitting before the city manager. Just a simple spreadsheet that comes to you saying, here is who the data request was formed from. Here is what the data request is for. Here's who's going to handle it. And here is the estimated time. And here is when I got back with that person saying what the estimated time would be, just systematizing that process the same way that we systematized street closures. And I think a lot of the misunderstandings, you know, that data is being withheld. No, data is not being withheld. But if you know when a date certain is that it will arrive, it just makes the system work smoother. And so I would recommend to console to recommend to the city manager a log that would go out, if not in public view, would go out to you guys with your city console preview package that comes before these meetings. So that you're on top of what the citizen concerns are that are coming to the city. I mean, you know when someone has touched Connor or Glen or Donna or whatever, but you don't know the kinds of concerns that are coming to the department. And that helps you to really be better city council people in my estimation as a non-city council person. And that is all I have to weigh in on tonight. And I think that was constructive. Take care, guys. Thank you, Richard. Good evening, my name is Ken Russell. I'm a new member of the new housing task force. And what did I just call it? That's related. So homelessness task force. Sorry. And whatever. And but thank you. I know almost all of you, but not all of you. And I appreciate your good work and appreciate you letting me serve on this. We had a fantastic meeting. First meeting, a lot of good energy, a lot of focus, and a lot of adaptability. And we, at the end of that good meeting, we went around the table and how are we going to work together and how are we going to form. But we were like, there was a sense of urgency expressed unilaterally.  We did not include the springtime. And Bill very destutely pointed out, well, maybe we should consider that as well. So we thank you for your consideration of this. And I just want to talk about acting in time. I went to graduate school with the biggest program they ever had there in public policy was acting in time. It was right after Katrina. And they brought in people from all over the country to talk about how does government respond in time to meet the needs of the people who are out there. And Steve Whitaker has done a lot of really good work and continues to do a lot of good work bringing this issue out of the people from the homeless community. Really doing a lot of fantastic work. People from the business community raising concerns and people I've talked to in that community are interested in being part of the solution here. Thank you, Rick Dangelis, for showing up to consider what opening the shelter early might look like. Steve put together some numbers there. And I'm sure you as the operator know what it would take to consider. And I just want to say this is a good example of a community taking care of itself considering everybody's needs, acting with good process and mutual respect. And so that's all I have to say. Did you all know what I'm talking about? I think we're gonna get to it in more detail. Oh, did I start to get up at the wrong point? So this item came up so fast that it was not put on our agenda nor was it added as an addendum. And what this means is that I think if we're gonna, I'm not sure that you've been very, I would love for you to be really clear about if you're asking the counselor something. We're asking, okay. And this is the item I was referring to about something has come up. We're gonna deal with it during general business and appearances. So that's right now. So if you could be very clear. Right, does somebody have the language? Yes, I think I do, hold on. And forgive me because I think part of this is I may have confused you with how it was distributed. Yes, let me find the language. You cut me slack, I appreciate it. So the homelessness task force came up with a resolution. It was unanimously approved and it was, here we, Do you have it Rick? Yeah. Okay. Would you come up and share it? Thanks. Feel free. I forgot the dog and the pony for this show. Okay, I've got it. Okay. The homelessness task force makes the recommendation that the city take any action necessary including identifying available funds to open up the Bethany Shelter as soon as possible and staff it until the Good Samaritan contract begins. We believe that that contract begins on November 15th and that is the full text of the motion and that's, and I will forward it to you, John. Yes. And I again, I apologize. This is all happening very quickly. You know, our committee, I mean, Steve made this motion with four minutes to go of our meeting and we pulled it off and we appreciate the fact that we're sort of throwing stuff on the, you know, out to you all very quickly. A charge of our task force was a longer term perspective but it did not preclude us acting more quickly and there certainly folks in that room unanimously felt the sense of urgency to keep things moving with a dynamic action. So thank you for your consideration and understanding and apologize for any clumsy steps. So, yeah, so just for clarity, actually let's, before we take this up any further, are there any other items for general business and appearances? Okay, so. Related to this or not related to this? So I'm just checking to see if anyone else has anything else that they want. Okay, that's not related to this. Yes, it's not related. Okay, great. Thank you Ken. We're gonna circle back to this issue. Hello, my name is Seth Collins. I live in Berlin, Vermont and I would like to see the construction and implementation of a feminist neighborhood watch as there's a serious problem with predators obviously everywhere but specifically my range isn't much greater than Apulia so I don't see or hear many other stories but I hear a lot of horror, literal horror stories and I would like to see this council and all, I'm sorry, I'm getting emotional but all branches of government, of local governments to confront this. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry, can he explain that to me? Maybe everybody else knows what he means. I don't know if you wanna ask questions. I'm sorry, I'm fine. I'm sorry, you see your neighborhood watches probably went the way of the wayside and I don't know when but they're not. You see a lot of signs that says the neighborhood watch has like an eye on them and the signs all worn down and not upgraded but so I would like to see essentially a neighborhood watch is a number of individuals they sign up for it. They're given some sort of training and I guess there's some sort of network where it's a network together in a web so you would say maybe, I mean, Montpelier isn't broken up into blocks but I believe it's broken up into districts. So you'd have every district would report to an individual then apparently possibly report to city hall or to whatever government and then that say it was someone, a dog was barking loudly then that of course wouldn't get reported to the police but if there was something where a crime, someone was being hurt, this money was stolen or whatnot then that would go under the police and then be processed that way. It's sort of a way of bringing justice faster because often in this town there will be someone getting smashed through the wall of their own apartment and then by then it becomes an issue. Well if they're in theory, this is only in theory, if there was a neighborhood watch then theoretically these things would be, and some of these things would be intercepted before it got to the point where someone was in a serious risk of bodily harm or injury. And I'm sorry that was so long-winded but I'm on. No, no, I really, the essence is what I'm hearing is that you want us to organize a neighborhood watch more formally with training, et cetera. Yes, I mean. Okay, I got it. I understand. So is there some sort of a network? I mean, you were telling me you wanted to implement something in the future but is there anything like that functioning at all now? I don't believe so. And just to clarify, Seth and I had had a conversation about reviving the capital area neighborhoods, excuse me, which is a thing that I would like to talk about when it comes to budget time. So that's something that at least moving into the future that sort of idea could be wrapped into the capital area neighborhoods. Anyway, yeah. Yes, I just wanted to put my spin on it that would be specifically in my opinion focused on intercepting predators and protecting the innocent as to me, like when people hear a neighborhood watch, they don't automatically interpret it as that way. They more interpret it as looking out for people that are generally suspicious. When I would want this neighborhood watch specifically to target specific counts of targets, specifically target rapists and imprison them or send them away because this town, I'm sorry, this town is too precious and every town is too precious. Every life is too precious for us to let this happen. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, any other comments, general business and appearances? I want to raise one that overlaps with a later one, but a number of folks in town have recollections from decades ago that a city center was being permitted, developed, improved, that there were conditions that those bathrooms be available to the public. Someone else even had recollections that the parking garage was to be accessible. I've made records requests to Bill, past Mike Miller, and I'm getting told now that I have to pay, I have to either, the onus is on me to go find those conditions. And I'm saying the onus is on the city. I've offered to search for them and create an OC, a searchable PDF, but the city should pay to scan that file so that it is searchable. But if the city is losing track of conditions, just through staff turnover and time, it's pretty important that public restrooms not be lost in the fog of time. So I made the proposal to Bill that the city have them scanned as they did with the parking structure documents at Capro Copy and I'll turn them into a searchable OCR and do the research, no charge to determine whether or not. It may be some handwritten stuff that needs to be transcribed, permit conditions that came out of development review, design review, but that's a pretty serious thing to overlook and the fact that numerous people in the community have expressed this recollection means that I would kind of count on City Hall to keep track of it. I've separately had a conversation with our public works director. The bridge needs some, the bike path bridge needs some signage. There's a young lady down there now who got hurt, the bike coming up the hill. You had to get her momentum up and the turn came so quick, she ended up hitting the rail. Separately garbage is not being collected and dozens of pounds of it are falling down the river bank. There's not even a proper garbage can up there on the circulation route for the contract. Those are the most important being that the next one is more important. Sorry, Steven, just before you go, which bridge are you talking about there? The bike path bridge behind DMV, the so-called Pocket Park. And that's the same place I will remind you where some of the homeless were harassed in the middle of the night. They had to have been staked out because there's no one around there to report a public urination, which was the alleged crime. But I believe we have some people, we've got some vigilantes in town that are rousing people and saying you can't sleep here in the middle of the night. So be aware that that happened yesterday or the day before with the vigilante. But, and we had a former cop reported twice to still be throwing his weight around here harassing the homeless. So those are things that you should take very seriously. And no one, since I've mentioned them, has come back and asked for details, other than buying bills. Call with me. Thank you. Any other general business and appearances? Okay, so circling back to the request that Glenn read, I'm sure there are some other folks. Well, so do you want to speak any more to that? I think apart from not actually reading the resolution, Ken did a good job of expressing our unanimity and sense of urgency on the task force to at least try to get this service available as soon as possible. Beyond that, I think I would like to say that I really appreciate the work that Good Samaritan and Haven is doing and I'm very glad that the Bethany Shelter has been open and I want to be able to work together as much as possible to continue and expand that service as possible. I really appreciate the fact that both Rick DeAngelis and Rob Farrell from Good Samaritan have come tonight to share their sense of the possibilities and the information that they have on the shelter as it has been run. Beyond that, I know we're going to have to have some amount of conversation about this and I guess I have a process question whether it makes sense for me to make a motion at this point before we get further information or whether we should have some open conversation first. I think it's fine if you want to make a motion and then I will say, though, it was not on our agenda so I will say it does make me a little uncomfortable to have a motion, particularly around money that we did not warn that feels. I'm just going to be candid and put out there that I would make a motion to table and not because I disagree with the idea but because I think I've been sort of on my trip for a while about making sure that people have an opportunity to weigh in and participate and I can see how some people might categorize this as stonewalling right now but I feel pretty strongly that this is something that we really as a community need to have a real conversation about and it's something that I want, I want people one to be aware that the council is taking this seriously and I feel it would undermine our integrity as an elected body and as people who are here to try to fix this to sort of go about it in a way where we don't have a firm plan in place so that people can look at that and say, okay, I know that my council is working for me and working for those that are most vulnerable in my community so I would ask that we like sort of, one, I feel a little blindsided and I don't feel well so I apologize that I'm a little off but I guess I'm not really clear so I caught the ask is that the city operate the shelter at Bethany Church between now and November or whenever we would vote on it and November 15th is that? Yeah, so the way it's worded in the way I understand it we would be directing staff to find a way to open the shelter that in my mind and as I understand that the task force's idea is more or less however that works I think that there is some probably some reasonable preferences for the city not to do any more than it has to itself for example if the city can assist Bethany that is I'm sorry, assist Good Samaritan to open earlier that would be my personal that would be fine with me I don't know if that helps answer your question I guess I mean so I just I want to make sure so in essence it's a question so the goal is we want to open the shelter ace up Yes, yeah, that's exactly right the path to that is what we are figuring out now so yes I would definitely make a motion to table there's no motion to table yet well there's no motion Stephen but I appreciate your candor and your commentary from there but if you were to make a motion I would certainly make a motion to table that I understand I'm gonna, unless you want to respond Lauren you had something to say this all being new to me I think the goal seems great and we should try to move forward expeditiously I was just looking up the average temperatures in October at night and it's 27 degrees in Montpelier so that seems cold for people to be out I'm wondering process wise like how do we at this point have like a budget how long would it take to get staffing up and I'm wondering if we could put a request to Bethany church or whoever the right entity to come back ASAP with a detailed proposal of how exactly this works that we could then have like publicly warrant have a process and improve like knowing exactly what we're signing up for I can respond to that just based on these inquiries Bethany church has said they would be willing to open they don't provide staff themselves so as long as whoever is funding and doing this they would be willing to open earlier and obviously they incur some of their own expenses and would like to be reimbursed for those but they're not huge and we've talked with Good Samaritan and I think the real issue so I'd be clear we don't have the staff or resources city to do it if we were directed to do so and I don't have any strong feeling why we wouldn't be we would want to have good the people who'd be running it all winter do it so I think we're talking about how much does it cost for how many weeks and appropriating that much money that's really the issue if the church is willing and I don't want to speak for Good Samaritan but their executive director is here so I'll let him speak for himself whether they're willing or have the ability to do it that would be the most expeditious way to accomplish this I would think so my understanding from the conversations I've had is that there is not a solid plan though for this to happen at least yet Sure, yes Can you just stand back in the microphone please I'm sorry I was chosen to present from the homelessness task force Mr. Whitaker doesn't respect boundaries I'm what I'm I'm done and I had a different issue a different angle I my understanding is they're discussing right now whether to table the motion There's no motion He didn't make a motion He didn't make a motion Stand back please Thank you Okay, yes I'm Rick DeAngelis of the board chair of the Good Samaritan and Mrs. Rob Farrell is the executive director We're really glad to see the interest for addressing the needs of the homeless you know I've been in Montpelier for 30 years and been involved with Good Sam for a long time and it was always a barry organization and we were scratching our head how do we develop interest in Montpelier and lo and behold here we are tonight It's amazing So that said, we are glad to try to you know to work with this interest and to open the shelter earlier It's logistically challenging I'll say that We have to hire staff You need a lot of staff to fill in a graveyard shift in which you're awake all night and you know maybe volunteer but it's we find that it's usually better if we're hiring people for reliability and so forth and then there's plus we have our own you know staff overhead and so forth and then there are the cost for the Bethany church so we you know back of the envelope based on a few telephone calls seven to ten thousand dollars for a month of operating the shelter and we did talk with the state of Vermont and we asked them if they could contribute and extend I mean we have a contract that'll be starting late in November and they said no but they said they might be willing to talk about whether there's some flexibility in that but the immediate answer was no Can I ask you, is it your perception actually maybe this is a question for the task force but is there a perception that there's a greater need on the front end of winter or on the back end of winter That's a great question First of all, hi everyone, thank you for having me I would go off for both Thank you Any other questions? I can repeat the cost, I heard seven hundred? Seven thousand to ten thousand and like I said that's the back of the envelope we came up with that I just didn't hear the number obviously, so thank you Yeah, about three hours ago so but you know it is expensive there's staffing, there's insurance there's the Bethany's cost and so forth Ashley It was profound in my mind I'm sure I'll think of it in a moment It'll come back Yes I just wanted to say very quickly if I could in light of the circumstances of arriving at this conversation, very late in the game I do wonder if we're not better off thinking about extending the season and moving the direction of the conversation towards that and then looking at next year opening up early It came to me Before we go, I just want to express sympathy with that idea that now is, I mean we can we could probably push to get something ready for before November but now is a great time to be planning for the spring and having a conversation about next year and two, I think just knowing what the situation is with the warming shelter and how it's been going and are they meeting their needs and what can be done there So thank you for that and Ashley Yes So one of the things that I feel as though I think a lot of communities have really fallen behind on is we need a short-term solution but we also really need a long-term plan and one of the things that seems like the money piece is something that we as a council have to make a decision about I think to me that's a larger policy question not just a $10,000 check question but one of the things that has always sort of struck me as an area where communities really could step in would be how do we, obviously this is a service that from my perspective we need because I care about my community and I care about the most vulnerable members of my community is sort of where are the deficiencies in terms of long-term planning around how to address food security to address any sort of unmet physical needs, medical needs all of those pieces that frankly as someone with a significant medical issue that's ongoing right now like thankfully I have learned how to advocate for myself but it strikes me that there is a lot of really challenging systems to navigate and one way that I would really urge the city to engage in is what do we have in terms of resources and I don't mean paper is super helpful because you have to fill out trash forms and I'm gonna call them trash forms because I've about had it with like forms to fill out for different medical providers or whatever and one of the things, I'm not comfortable just throwing money at a problem because I don't think that's what a council or a community can do to actually solve a problem but I want to put on the radar that to me the seven to $10,000 to get this up and running early is an imperative I certainly want to make sure we have a solid plan in place but I also wanna make sure that this $7,000 to $10,000 is going to yield a net positive return for everyone who will be utilizing that and so I don't want anyone here to think that throwing money at this and just opening this shelter is the answer because it is so much more complicated than that and I think that's another way where the city has lots of resources that we can use and we have a lot of people who care about what happens here and so I know good Sam and Barry does some work around that and I think that we in Montpelier have a lot of resources at our disposal and it would be short-sighted and frankly negligent of us to not think long-term about this and the $7,000 to $10,000 is frankly from my perspective an easier ask than how are we going to meaningfully change some of these really problematic social structures that are in place that perpetuate the site goal? Yeah, here, here, but for $7,000 to $10,000 you keep somebody alive and out of the cold Listen, I get it. And you can't do much more than that, I mean and that's what this emergency shelter system that the state has developed and encouraged basically does, not a whole lot more. You can connect with some people and work with them on a service plan. This is such a terribly complex structural problem that we have. And whether that means a committee from the city organizing volunteers to like help fill out forms with people or whatever it might be or even just compiling a list of therapists who are accepting new patients or treatment providers. I mean, I've been calling treatment providers and they're telling me three to six months for an appointment. I mean that when you're talking to someone who has immediate unmet needs, that is insurmountable.  So if I can just remind everyone in the conversation that when we formed the homelessness task force I think in the draft of the memo we talked about sort of the limitations on the city's ability to address all of the root causes of homelessness and we charged the task force to come up with some short-term solutions that we could implement quickly and then to do exactly what Council Member Hill said is then use the time to think about ways to do and we specifically talked about ways to help people navigate the system and other things and to think strategically but also understand that the winter is coming, right? And it's gonna get cold and people are gonna be out there. I think there it's consistent with, I think we agree that the city council agreed when it formed the task force with exactly what you're saying. I'm just saying this is a really unique opportunity though that if we are able to figure out a way to move this forward, I see a way that this part could also kind of get wrapped up in a sense in that and your time is your most valuable thing in life. That is what I have learned in my recent weeks and as someone who has slept in a parking lot in my car before, $7,000 to $10,000 is a lot of money but in the grand scheme of things it's not a lot of money but it's a meaningless amount of money if we aren't gonna put our moral money where our mouths are and actually change this and so I don't see this as something for the council to take a backseat role in because we set the tone. We set the tone for how we engage with our community and how we engage with members of our community who don't live the same way that we do and I think that I wouldn't be comfortable voting for a plan just to approve a budget for this if there were to be a motion that came to a vote but there would need to be like an actual, this committee will come up with a list of suggestions and I see it as more of we need to do this and so for me any sort of funding request would also have that built into it because a funding request by itself is just that and it's only temporary. Connor and then Donna. Two quick questions so I think you said already how much earlier would this open the shelter? A month. Yeah. A month. I mean that's, again, we're ballparking that figure. We figure about that much for a month of operation. But don't hold him to it. Well, I mean we just found out about it. I know, I know, I understand. And Bill, easy question for you, where would this money come from? You know, I haven't had, this has been waiting for the number but so we'd have to look for it but I suspect we could find it somewhere. I don't know, fund balance or something. I mean, we, it's probably within the margin of error of a meeting project or something, you know, so. I mean, I'll just say like in our last budget we appropriated some money for childcare at city council meetings. I don't think we're ready for prime time at that so that's something I'd be willing to suggest we push back the next year. That's $2,000 right there, right? I don't know if we can add up to it like that. Donna. I know we haven't decided what our dates are for October but I would like to direct staff as well as the committees to come back at our next meeting and for all of us, hopefully give us information before the city council meeting and that we all come with more information and an idea of how to go along this path which we are interested in doing but we need the details. How much lead time would you need to get going? To come up with a plan. From the time we say go to the time you can open how much lead time do you need? We would like as much time as possible at least a couple weeks at the very least. So if our next meeting is October 9th or 16th and they went open October 15th, I'm just, I'm not trying to push this, I just want to make sure people understand the consequences of the choices. Regardless, I think it may make some sense nonetheless to ask folks to work together to come up with a plan and knowing that that I'm gonna trust your collective judgments about whether that means we're meeting on the 9th then we're gonna open in a couple, like a week after or so or if that means the trade-offs or such that it makes more sense to do it for the extending the season or whatever, I believe that to you. I mean if I, I don't know, was that a motion, Donna, finally? Yes, I was sort of put out there for a feeler but it seemed to me, let's say we went to the next meeting let's say for a sake now, it's the 9th instead of the 16th. The committee would probably have to meet early if you meet only monthly. We meet once a week. Oh, meet weekly, okay, so that's great. So that would give everyone two weeks and I think that's what we need, information. And likewise, Bill can help nudge the budget and give us some ideas there and let us get really real about this. I also wanted to add if I could. I'm sorry, was that a motion, Donna? Okay, John, I'm talking to you, all right. So the motion is that the city council puts this item on its October 9th agenda or the very first October meeting we have but I'm hoping it's the 9th. And that the committee and the providers and will come forth with more information and more clear numbers. And likewise, staff will come back with more options oh where we could find money, she'll be decide, we want that. Is that clear enough, John? I may have to go back and check that. Okay, I think it had multiple seconds though. We can co-second, I'm cool with that. All right. It looks like you both have something to say. And I just want to, we have a ground rule that there can be dissenting opinions. I was asked to present. Steve obviously has lots of thoughts on this, which is great. But I do acknowledge this was an ad hoc last minute thing. So it was with a pretty goodwill and sense of shared sense of urgency on the issue. I think we can work well together. Steve did send some numbers to me, which I sent to Bill based on his math and of course the operators of the shelter, the ones who really understand what it takes, but they appreciate considering the advocate position on this. Steve, thank you. We worked, we busted our rear ends to get the numbers to Bill in time to meet the 24 hour agenda threshold before this meeting. So the fact that nobody has the numbers that were prepared, it was about 8,400 without. I did speak to pastor of the church, Amy, and they have no intent or awareness that this is gonna be a recurring year after year thing. They did it as a one time thing and now they're being asked to like pick up the slack and their board met last night to consider this request. Apparently they granted this request to open early. But the fact that you had the numbers and that we've got pregnant couples, disabled people sleeping in the streets and you're gonna kick this can down the road because the numbers weren't circulated from Bill to the city council. So I gotta interrupt you here, Steve. I got numbers from you that you calculated that you said- I pulled them directly from the Good Sam budget with OEO, the country. I understand that. I spoke to Mr. Farrell this morning after receiving your numbers and he said, I don't have numbers yet, I'll have them at the meeting. Okay, but we don't have to. We could hire people that have done this service before. Well, we can argue about it or not. I'm telling you that I relied on the organization who provides the service to provide me with budget numbers. And as of about nine o'clock this morning, he told me he did not have them and would have them at this meeting tonight. Okay, but this is part- I appreciate where you got yours and in fact they match. This is part of the problem is that- Stephen, I apologize for interrupting you because I hate being interrupted myself but I am going to ask you this question. Is your goal to make this happen or is your goal to argue about who is right? My goal is to make it happen immediately. Well, immediately is not an option right now. So the option is we can either collaborate altogether or we can continue to waste time and fight. There's enough hot air in this room to keep these people warm. Well, Mr. Whitaker, maybe there is a bit of self-reflection that needs to happen there as well. Okay, there are people who are not allowed into the good Sam system. There are people who have a note. I met one tonight who is under a 12 month no trespass order at the Bethany church just for having slept under a bush and with no warning. So there's all kinds of holes in the system. So for y'all to think that, you know, the provider has this all wrapped up is absurd. You know, I've asked, I've done records requests. The provider's not willing to share where the half a million dollars that they spend goes. That's a problem. There's an accountability problem. We need to look at other opportunities to staff these emergency shutters. Well, I am telling you that the city is not gonna be able to pull together staff in two weeks to staff a shelter unless it's through an established shelter provider, period. I'm also telling you that no matter what system or who's providing it, there will be people who fall outside the cracks. It's sad, but it's what happens. There are going to be people with no trespass orders. There's going to be people who misbehave. There are going to be people who get kicked out of places. It's unfortunate, but regardless of who's providing it, that's going to happen. It's not going to be a one-size-fits-all. As I understand it, the rules at Bethany are looser than the ones in Barrie and are more accommodating to people. And that has been happening for the last two years. Okay. The city council, the elected officials here of the city have said they want more time to study this and get better numbers and get a recommendation of where the money's coming from. They haven't voted, but that's where they're headed. Arguing over whether they had the money or not. But for you to say we had numbers, we didn't have numbers from a credible source and that is no disrespect intended to you. I'm a credible source. All right. So there's a motion and a second on the table. Any further discussion? And then I'd like to move on. Yes. I'm afraid, I feel like I'm in a difficult position and I also want to apologize to the council that this did come up so quickly. Part of that I think is certainly something that I can take some credit or blame for. At the same time, I feel, and forgive me, Ken, if I'm stepping on your toes here, but I think I would be doing the task force at disservice if I did not re-emphasize in words other than Stevens, excuse me, Stephen, our shared sense of urgency. And from what I've heard so far tonight, the council is fairly unanimous, although we haven't heard from every last person, on wanting this to happen as soon as possible, I've further heard that the Good Samaritan folks are willing to work with us and that the number is not likely to be large. Given that our October meeting certainly may be delayed by a week, I would prefer to move ahead immediately, get council agreement to ask Bill to start working on this now so that we can start on the 15th with no problem. Again, I have trouble with who makes motions when and how to do it best, but if I can, I'd like to make a motion that we... You can't make a motion, right? You can't make a motion, okay. We should make an amendment to the motion. So in that case, I would move to amend the current motion to approve the homelessness task force's recommendation as it stands and move forward as soon as possible. Is there a second? We repeat the current motion on the table, yeah. John's gonna repeat it. To approve the homelessness task force recommendation as it stands and to move forward as soon as possible. Do you mean... It's an amendment. It's an amendment. Did you mean Donna's? She meant the original motion. Yeah, the original motion. All right, now that's the one that went on a long time and I didn't get it. I'm gonna have to go back to the tape. The core suggestion was that the council would be looking at this... Direct staff. We were gonna be looking at this because we're gonna get feedback from the committee in two weeks and from the providers and from the staff to look for the money. And I would just mention in the future, because you guys are big rambly with the motions, under Robert's rules, the motion needs to be tight enough that theoretically the presiding officer can repeat it back before the vote. And these motions that go on forever, I cannot capture it. There's three parts to my motion, actually four. That the next meeting, city council, will consider funding additional time at the homeless shelter, but we need to hear from the committee, from the providers and from staff. Is that clear enough, John? Oh, it's clear, I just don't have the exact language. I was trying to give you some exact short. So that's a change to your motion. I did not understand that, I'm sorry. If you prefer it even, I was trying to make it real. Well, then you'll have to give it to me again because it sounded like you were just explaining your motion. I'm serious. Okay, okay. I don't know how else to tell you. No, okay. So likewise, that at the October 9th city council meeting, you may not want to tie it to a date. Okay. At the next October city council meeting, we considered the request to fund the opening of the homeless shelter early. And that at that October meeting, we hear from the homeless shelter committee, task force, I'm sorry. Get the right name, task force. The providers had Bethany and from the staff on sources for funds. Okay. So at next October city council meeting, we consider the request to fund the opening of the homeless shelter early. And at that October meeting, we hear from the homelessness task force, the providers had Bethany and from the staff on sources for funds. Does that answer your question? So Glen made an amendment. Is there a second? Okay, so hearing no second, the amendment dies. And so there's a motion on the table, which is Donna's motion, which is what was just read. Lauren, did you have something to say? I think some of the question. So if we don't vote on this until October 9th or 16th, like obviously it sounded like there was a number of steps that need to happen of pulling together a plan and a budget. If the goal, you know, with, it seems like there's general agreement that we want to move in this direction and we want to provide the service for longer. Like what would be held up by, if we don't officially approve this until say, October 16th? Like what kind of timeline would it then take to post jobs or do whatever it would take? I'm just curious, how long are we? Two weeks. Well, I heard two weeks to kind of prepare the materials to like get a real solid budget and plan in place. But then I assume also there's like posting jobs and things that then happen. So I'm just wondering if we wait for beyond, you know, if it's three weeks from now or whatever, like how far are we pushing things before? Like we'd actually be able to open. I don't know if that's an answerable question. So when I said two weeks, it was in the spirit of having a very ambitious goal and a sense of urgency that I'm feeling in this room. We welcome the opportunity to collaborate with everyone here in this room and very much here, the folks of all differing opinions. We will be hard-pressed to open up the shelter in two weeks. I cannot be any more clear about that. Two weeks to come up with a solid plan and then, you know, we are actively already hiring for the shelter, but it'd be very difficult for me to come before this council and say we'd be ready to go on the 15th of October. Jack. And that's if we approved you now. I'm sorry? And are you saying it would be difficult to do it for October 15, even if they said go right now? It would be a very ambitious date, yes. Did you have something to follow? So just so I'm clear, so this timeline for what from your perspective it will take to actually make this happen anyway, this doesn't really slow down anything, assuming if we then vote at the next meeting to approve this, it would kind of be happening on this timeline anyway, or are you somehow hamstrung in anything that you would otherwise be doing if we don't with this motion? Yeah, I would leave this room with the same sense of urgency that I walked in with and that if I could put together a team and everything that goes involved with opening the shelter on October 15th, we certainly would. However, we just are not in the position to make any guarantees right now. Thank you. Jack, did you have something? Yeah, I was gonna say two things. One, I think that it's clear that you can tell from the discussion of the council that there's a sense that we wanna make this happen as soon as possible, and so you're not gonna wait until our next council meeting to start doing the things that then starts the two week time period you're thinking about. And so as a good manager of an organization, you're gonna be working on what can be done to put you in a position to do this work. I also wanna say in my professional work, I've been, had connections, ties with and worked with people at the Good Samaritan Haven for decades, and I think that they have done great work. You've done, when there were problems with the city of Barry and zoning and everything, the Good Samaritan Haven stood up to the city to make sure you could provide the services that you need to provide. I was at the event last Friday night. I think it was a good event, a good cross section of the community and people that I have never seen at that kind of event before, and I think that Rick was right, that this kind of outreach to get support from people who live in Montpelier is an important part of what you do. The Good Samaritan Haven is an organization that needs money and needs to raise funds to provide services. And I don't think the criticisms made in the handout that we were just given have any validity whatsoever. I'm gonna support this motion. I'll make a commitment that we'll get out financial information as soon as we can. We won't wait until the next meeting, so if we can put together where we think we can get it or if we can't, we'll get that out as early as possible so that planning can move ahead. Any further discussion? Okay, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay, thank you, and really, thank you to the committee for all of your work on this. I mean, even though it's maybe not as fast as you'd hoped, I mean, it's without you, it wouldn't probably be happening at all, so very grateful. So, look forward to hearing more from you all. Thanks. Sorry, it wasn't what it should have been on time. No, no, it's fine, I understand. Thank you for your graciousness. Okay. So, before we start the agenda, one other thing, I was so excited to give Bob his pin that I was remiss to introduce Lisa Maxwell, our new executive director of the Mopiliar Development Corporation, who's here visiting us this week. Those who haven't met Lisa, she's here spending her week in Mopiliar and clearly knows how to have a good time. And so, you're starting in full in the beginning of November, we're looking forward to having you here, but even in the interim, she's been great to work with. So, looking forward to having her. Thank you for recognizing me. And welcome Lisa. All right, so on to our regularly scheduled agenda. Mayor, I just wanted to let everybody know, I had reached out to you earlier. I am gonna leave at some point during the meeting. I have surgery scheduled for next week, so if our meeting is the week after that, if it is, I will be here for at least one topic, but I just wanted to put out there that if I get up at some point. It's okay, it's anticipated, fair enough. Okay, so on to the consent agenda. Was there, did you wanna pull a particular item? It was Donna here, I know we've got, we're having a major water leak now. So, I guess I just wanna quickly pull, yeah, I've been getting the mix is just here. We just wanna quickly pull, and I don't even know if you need to really pull it, but I wanna mention the Berry Street night paving. We did discover that we had neglected to send notices. We noticed the people from Granite Street to Main Street, where the mayor and others live, but not from Granite Street out, which is actually where the paving is going. But there aren't that many residents there, but nonetheless, there are residents. So, we were going to suggest that you, but we'd like to stay on schedule that you approve this, but that with the condition that we noticed, and we're actually gonna get the notices out tomorrow, but before you heard about it, that we hadn't provided notices, we realized today that we hadn't, and we wanted to make sure that you knew that we knew, and that we're owning up to it, and we're gonna fix it. So, perhaps, so that's item C, do you wanna, or we're gonna do it, so you don't necessarily need to want to, but we wanted to make sure that it was addressed. That we're going to send those notices. The notice is going on ASAP. Okay, anything else about the consent agenda? I just mentioned that the minutes from the meeting, the last regular meeting, Peter Kelman's name has been corrected to be spelled correctly, and the correct name of the Social and Economic Justice Committee is no longer. Okay, thank you. Is there a motion regarding the consent agenda? So moved, and we approve it. Second. Further discussion? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay, thank you. So that passes. And so on to the zoning. I know we advertise it for 640, and we are 45 minutes behind, I'm sorry. So, welcome Mike Miller, Planning Director. Great, good evening, and I'm Mike Miller and the Director of Planning for the City. And so, I won't go through the whole deal again to keep things brief. We've gone through this a number of times. So this is the second public hearing for the zoning fixes. The only change that I wanted to make sure I pointed out was that after the, shortly after the last public hearing we had, and this was, I believe Jamie emailed it out to you and we put it on the web with the list. There was a map error that was found at 242 Elm Street. It's one of these things that under the zoning rules, we would be able to go and say lines that are intended to follow property lines shall be interpreted as following property lines. In this case, we found one that when they were drawing the line, they followed the outside of the barn and not the property line. So it's in the wrong place. So we're gonna interpret it correctly anyways, but we figured with the open hearing, we would just go through and say it's just a technical fix. It's not a substantial fix, but that we would correct that map as well for that one parcel. And if there were any questions on that, I could answer it, but other than that, everything has been online, although the red line changes, if there are any other questions. Did we open the public hearing? No, but let's do that now. Thank you. We're gonna officially open public hearing. So this is the second reading of the zoning changes. Thank you. Any other questions regarding the zoning? Any comments from the public? Okay. Oh, yes. Good evening, Joe Castellano, 3 Sabin Street, Montpelier. And I was made aware this afternoon that Phyllis Rubinstein had sent some comments and emailed to you, and I just wanna make sure that you shared those comments with the council. I certainly did not, because I've basically not been able to check my email since, I mean, I teach between 130 and three, and then I basically have wall-to-wall meetings until I come here. I mean, I was at a meeting at 3.30, so I've not even read this email. I saw I had an email from someone named Phil or Philip, but I could forward them to people now, if you would like. I can also just read them off my phone if you want. That would be fabulous. Okay, this is verbatim. Dear Anne, and this is behalf of Phyllis Rubinstein who lives over on College Street. I was unable to attend the city council meeting two weeks ago and am unable to attend tonight. As a resident of the College Hill area, I am writing to voice my objections to the proposal by Casey Ellison to modify the zoning districts in St. Vincent's Pasteur. The parcel in question is a fully wooded hillside, very much unlike the open pasture in the Zorzi track. I attended the community meeting Dr. Ellison held at the Kellogg Hubbard Library in the summer, at which time she shared that she is not obtaining bank financing for the proposed bathhouse. She was also unaware that she would need to have access to the building for emergency vehicles. She plans to build a 45 car parking lot below the building site on the wooded ridgeline and seems unaware that the slope of the pasture makes it unsuitable for such an impervious structure. She hopes to get an easement from the Zorzi's for a portion of the street driveway from Berry Street to the parking area, but she had not yet contacted the Zorzi's. She has no concrete plans for face to the proposed building of apartments or commercial space on Berry Street. She suggested that she would have to obtain financing for phase two. I am concerned that Dr. Ellison lacks the knowledge or end skills of the developer and project may well fail. Assuming the city council changes the zoning lines and the project subsequently fails, the property will remain open for development in ways not allowed under current zoning regulations. Please share my concerns with the council members. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Any further comments from the public? Yeah. I'm curious to know what exactly structure this person wishes to build if it were, if it were these $400 month housing units that would be all for her building something like that. I think all of that is, there's no proposal yet on the table, so that's all sort of yet to be discussed. This is really just about what will be allowable on that space. Yes, so all to be future conversation, but thank you for raising it. Okay, any further comments? Okay, so I'm gonna close the public hearing. And I think at this point, we could use a motion regarding the zoning changes. I move we approve the proposed zoning changes as presented tonight with amendments. There's a second. I'll second. Further discussion? I would make an amendment that we approve the zoning changes and separate the request to change the property line. On the VCFA. On the VCFA property. Is there a second? So removing that particular piece from the other zoning proposals. Is there a second? Okay, so the motion or the amendment fails for lack of a second. Any further, yeah, Jack. I understand the concern raised by Phyllis Rubenstein. My opinion is that those concerns are not really zoning concerns. They're really permitting concerns. And if the property owner applies for a permit to construct this project, there'll be plenty of opportunity for that project to be reviewed. And so I'm gonna support the amendment, or support the motion as I articulated it. Further discussion? Okay, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Aye. Okay, so the motion passes. Thank you. And thank you for all of your work. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. All right, so we have a couple appointments to be made. One to the community fund board. And Michael's here, if you wanna come up and tell us about, I know you've introduced yourself before and we all know you, but nonetheless. Michael Sherman, I live in Montpelier on Call of Street. I'm not gonna take a long time because you're behind schedule, but I just want to bring to your attention that what has happened with the community fund board, and I was initially very skeptical about it, but I think what we have done is helpful to the citizens of the city. We've been careful to create a uniform application so everybody's doing the same thing at the same time in order to get their money. We've also created, I think, a good standard for accountability so that we know, and therefore the council knows how the money that's been appropriated from city taxpayers is being used and that it's fulfilling the obligations that people take on with their applications. I've been on, this is the end of my first term. I've been totally active with it. It's a very short period of time that we work. It's intensive, but then we're done and you have a budget item to put on the budget and I would very much appreciate being appointed again. Thank you. And I'll answer any questions if you have any. Any questions? Okay, is there a motion regarding this appointment? Connor? Yeah, I'll move. We reappoint Michael Sherman to a three-year term on the community fund board. Oh, second. Further discussion? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Thank you for your work and this and so many other areas. Okay, so on the other appointment that we have is to the Center for Mount Regional Planning Commission. Kirby Keaton was stepping down as the rep and I think it was Marcella Dent who was stepping forward on for that and you're here, do you wanna introduce yourself? I know you have before again, but again. Hi, my name's Marcella Dent. I'm new to the Planning Commission but just within discussion with the current members, this is general practice and in the past it's been helpful for I think us and CVRPC to have a member of the Planning Commission be appointed to the Central Planning Commission and so I have the availability and interest to do it and I can try to answer questions if you have any. Any questions? Not done. I'm pleased that you volunteered. I would hope, do you think you could make time to come back to the council or send emails? I'm on the Regional Planning Transportation Task Advisory Committee and I try to give the council like a report once a month and even if you could just email me but I would love for us to be in more communication personally since I'm one of the task forces and likewise for the council to hear more about what the Regional Planning Commission is doing. Sure, yeah. That's a doable? That sounds doable if there's interest in it, Peter, yeah. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Jack. I was kinda surprised the way this came to us has it historically been the practice that the Planning Commission makes this nomination to the Regional Planning Commission? Yes. Yes. Okay, great. And I'm happy that we have people who are willing to do not only the work they're doing on the Planning Commission but extra work, signing up for another commission. Don't scare away. All right. All right, is there a motion regarding this appointment? I move we appoint Marcella Dan to the Regional Planning Commission. Second. I'll second. Further discussion? All in favor please say aye. Aye. Opposed? All right, thank you so much. All right, Confluence Park. So I know Roy and Ricardo are here to talk about that, so welcome. And I know Donna was at the presentation last night as well as I. Yes. PDF on here. I don't know, what do you think? Do we know? Do you have thumb drive? Do you have a thumb drive? No. So I don't, that answers my question. It is not necessary. I just thought if we wanted to have the design up there. Sure. I think we're good. So Ricardo Erickson with the Vermont River Conservancy and we have been contracting with Malone and McBroom and Roy Schiff is the water resources engineer with Malone and McBroom who have been doing a conceptual design for the Confluence River Park. The Confluence River Park, as you may know, is the proposed park at the Confluence of the North Branch and main stem of the Winooski Rivers on the city owned transit center lot. And we have had a series of public meetings and input sessions and I don't feel I need to go into depth now but I'm happy to answer any questions about the background and the process. But what we're here for tonight is to present to you this concept, the final conceptual design of the Confluence River Park. And to ask you to commit city staff and potentially resources to move into the next phase. And this is what's considered 10% complete in a design completion spectrum. And we would like the next phase would be to get to 75% completion. And we would like to Vermont River Conservancy would like to work with city staff to look into funding opportunities to fund that second phase and look into funding the construction of this park. So that is our ask to you is to have the city commit to the second phase, to commit to moving forward with the Confluence River Park by having city staff work in collaboration with the Vermont River Conservancy and to commit to an yet to be defined amount of funding to put into as perhaps a match for this second phase. Can I add to that? Sure. I was thinking about this the other day in terms of the traffic study that we just did, where there was an outside consultant that came to us and they had a plan and some visions. And then there was sort of this question about like, would we be like, is this the vision? Is this the where we want to go? And I think if this is sort of like our as the city, do we want to commit to this as the vision? And all that it entails to try to move forward with that vision, knowing that we've got some fundraising to do. I hope that captures it also. There's maybe an addendum to that, to what you said. Yeah, if I could just add one minute. So I've been a resident of Montplair for 15 years on the Conservation Commission. I was really excited to work on this project professionally. But actually the most exciting part was we've been for about a year doing outreach with all the city departments, commissions, and the public. We've done public survey. And this is the fifth concept that has slowly whittled its way down. So we feel pretty good about the main elements in this design. People want ADA access. People want to recreate in the river in the future when the water quality is better. Want to perform in space. Want the bike path, integrated canoe access, and so on and so forth. So the data and the design and the initial work and the planning are really there. And as Ann said, I think adopting this as the concept that the public sort of put forward and with guidance from most of the departments in the city that will have an interest or some vested interest in this area is exciting. And hopefully you'll support that and move forward with us. Any questions from the council? Comments, et cetera? Don? I'm very excited about this. And I've been to several of your presentations and know that you have this and then you have incorporated things.  People wanted to get into the next stage last evening. I'd like to make a motion that the city accept concept D as our vision for our river parks and a way to lead forward. Are we calling this one D? E. E. Oh, E, I'm sorry. I'm looking at concept E, John Odomt. Is there a second? Second. Further discussion? Ashley, I guess I'm just curious. So the commitment is, I would hazard a guess, probably there. In terms of what the next thing is, I can't imagine all you need from us is commitment because if that's all you needed, that would be this would have been done years ago. So what practically are your next steps if the council were to approve this concept? So I'll speak from the Vermont River Conservancy and then Roy can talk about the design. But the next steps would be for Vermont River Conservancy to work with city staff. And I imagine Kevin Casey, a fundraising staff member, to look into funding opportunities. We are at the point now where it is, if we want to continue the process, we need the municipality to commit to this project. There are funding opportunities that only the municipality can apply for that a nonprofit cannot. Or there are funding opportunities that need to demonstrate that strong level of partnership. So in order to move this project forward, that's the level of commitment we need for the city to say this is a city project. It doesn't mean you are committing to any specific design. We are not near shovel ready. Nor does it say, is it a level of a commitment to a certain dollar amount for the final project? It is simply a commitment that, yes, as a city we are moving forward, we want this. We want to do our best effort to make it happen. And it's fair to say that the design yet can still shift potentially based on that further research. And as we go along, things may change. So in the design world, Roy, I don't want to speak to that. Yeah, I mean, Riccardo mentioned this. So this is a concept design. It's really about programming and asking people what they wanted to do in this space and doing feasibility work. Can we get ADA accessibility to these two rivers? And the answer is yes. And here's a concept to do that. But there will be a lot of design moving forward. Actually, the bulk of it, what are the materials and things made of? What local artists will put a sculpture where? And those are the things that all have to be hashed out in a next phase or two of the project before a couple years down the line, this thing gets built. And we have this great park sitting in the center of our city. Donna. Well, the term you used last evening is this is only 10% of the design work. And I purposely set vision and concept and emotion. And I wanted to separate directing staff to work with them just to keep it a cleaner motion. But I do know we need to then do that. But that's why I did the motion. It's a project that's in our pipeline. I know that's what we'll do. Yeah. Great. Jack. I think this is great. I think over historically in cities across the country, the waterfront and the lakefront has been an industrial setting. Wasteland. Well, I wouldn't say wasteland. I'd say it's been an industrial resource because of how the cities have developed. And so what we've seen at the Burlington waterfront in a lot of other places, including here now, is the idea of taking that industrial setting and something that's really not at all attractive or inviting to people and turning it into something that people want to spend their time on. And so I'm really glad to see this. I know a lot of people think of state and Maine as the center of town. But I actually think of this location as the center of town in a different way, in a certain sense. And it's a very small parcel. But it's really important. I'm really excited about this. So wait, so there's been a motion and a second? There was a second. Any further discussion? Any comments from the public? All right. All in favor, do you say aye? Aye. Opposed? OK. Thank you for all of your work and looking forward to next steps. Thank you. Thank you. You want this? It's the big one. You want the big one? The big one. So are we going to take a break or not? Would you like to take a break? Well, I mean, I'm going, but it's nice of you. Did anybody else like it? OK, let's take a five minute break. This is, I think, a good opportunity to take a little break. OK, so we are going to come back from our break. So we are on to reviewing the chapter seven ordinances. So this is the fourth public hearing. So I'm going to open up the public hearing regarding chapter seven. And I have only one comment. Yeah, I'm good. Good work, Santa. Yes. My one comment was, oh, I'm looking at chapter eight. I need to look at seven. OK, under seven one decaying matter, I'm so glad that we are allowing composting, vermicomposting, pit composting, trench composting. One question I had was, is this a thing to have a government sanctioned composting bit or vessel? I know we talked about that last time. I just don't know where we landed on that. And also, technically speaking, maybe I'm just speaking as a science nerd. But decaying material still would incorporate the fermentation of things. So I'm also worried about that we're banning fermented stuff. Yeah, well, kimchi, sauerkraut, et cetera. I'm off of banning those things. That's nasty. Home kombucha. So Bill, are you including, just out of curiosity, are you including beer in your offer banning them? They're all supplemented. No wine making. So his distilling is good. Yeah, right. I can't. Well, can we just say decaying material parentheses except for fermentation purposes? Sure. What were your added words, Bill? Except for fermentation purposes. Oh, OK. Decaying material parentheses except for fermentation purposes. Yes, that would be fine. That would make me happy. Not including kimchi and sauerkraut. Because we're definitely banning those. Jack. Couple of things. Should we clarify even further to say except materials being fermented for human consumption? Well, that's what I'm trying to get at. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, good point. Yeah, that's fair. So I move to amend it, to amend 7-1 to include those words. Second. So this is just about amending this part of it to be clear. So further discussion. And do you have that, John? Yeah. OK. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? OK, great. And yes, Jack. Did you have something else? Well, I just was circling back to the idea of government sanctioned composting bins or vessels. But I don't need to make a big deal out of that. I don't know if we did check in on whatever that means. Great. But if not. I think that's a good point. Because I've got one of those compost tumblers in my yard. I never went to the government and asked if it was OK.  But I don't think so. I don't think so. I just wondered if that was referring to a certain scale. It becomes government regulated, or at least state regulated. But I assume this is smaller than that. You're just striking. Yeah. What do you call the larger ones? The condominium near me has a large composting bin, much bigger than the personal use. And I presume it's regulated through the trash hauler. So I assume there's regulations there. So and if it's big enough for the state to sanction, maybe that's. So it's just. I would be for just striking the words government sanctioned, unless there's a good reason to include it. I move we strike those words. Second. OK, for Lauren? Just as long as we're not somehow inadvertently making it illegal to have a composting facility here. Does this do the other words, pit or trench composting? So now we're only allowing personal use composting if we delete the whole thread? Or are we just taking out the word? Composting bin or vessel. So I mean, I might say, or government sanctioned facility. Those are regulated. So I think maybe I misunderstood the thrust, but I think what I was intending with my motion was to strike the two words government sanctioned, so that now it will read, the section shall not apply to the maintenance of composting bin or vessel pit or trench composting or vermicomposting for personal use, plus the language about, wait, no, that's somewhere else. That's a decaying matter that's earlier in the section. Excuse me. I read that to say, the big facilities is not a bin or vessel, and then the rest of it is all qualified by for personal use. So I think we might be taking out the ability to have. I mean, it's usually just slabs of concrete and piles, and they do all this management to it. So what if we said, what if we just moved that part, so that this section shall not apply to the maintenance of a government sanctioned composting bin or vessel trench pit or trench composting, vermicomposting for personal use or other state sanctioned composting facilities. Would that work for you? No? While we're on that sentence, I'm a little concerned with the semicolon before or vermicomposting that it's not clear to me whether for personal use applies to all the items in that list or just vermicomposting for personal use, which I don't think is what's intended. You think it's intended to be personal use as applied to all of it? That's what I assume. OK. But these big bins aren't for personal use. The hauler takes them away and sells them to a composting company. And I don't know what pit or trench composting is, whether by its nature that is something that's not for personal use. All the ones I've seen have. They're more of the homemade jobbies that Loram was talking about, need to get in and put leaves over it and saw dust. I think you can also have a bin that's not just for transfer. You can have a bin that's like you would describe it, the tumbler, that kind of thing. I would consider that a bin, maybe, probably. So do you have any suggestions about that, Jack? What if you put an an before pit that separates the larger bin vessels to the smaller that are related to personal household use? Well, or we could, if what we want to allow for personal use is pit or trench composting and vermiculture or vermicomposting, if we were to change that semicolon to a comma, then I think it would be clear that for personal use applies to all the three and all those items, pit or trench composting or vermicomposting. So I move we change the semicolon after composting and before or to a comma. Hang on before we do that. There was a motion. Yeah, I moved to strike government sanctioned. Sorry about that. Government sanctioned. Was there a second for that? Nope. Oh. There is. Yeah. All right. So Lauren? I'm just thinking about our restaurants who have to do this. That's not personal use, right? But they have to compost now, so. But they're all under state regulations what they do with their compost. That's what to me, that government sanction is important because it says there are certain bends and vessels that are composting but aren't for personal use that should be allowed. I don't know if those are the right words, but there is the bigger bends and vessels. I could also picture striking just for personal use. But I don't know. How about this? Maintenance of composting of a composting bin or vessel in compliance with state law regulation. So it doesn't suggest that the government is actively blessing your personal bin, but it suggests that in order to not be covered by town regulation, you need to be complying with some higher regulation. Is that a friendly amendment? So I would move to amend your motion. So I can accept that amendment? How does that work? I don't think so. I think, well, I would. Officially, but well. If there's no objection to an amendment, then it could be the chair can rule it amended. OK, so there's no objection. No objection. So we're going to consider that as part of your original motion. OK, thank you. Thank you for that clarification. For the discussion on that, do we need to have it read back or are we feeling OK about it? Changing the language to maintenance of a composting bin or vessel in compliance with state law regulation. And striking the rest of it or keeping the rest of it? Yeah, keeping the rest of it, but then my motion will be in order after that. OK, great. OK, great. For the discussion, all in favor of you say aye. Aye. Post. OK, and Jack. I moved in the last line of 7-2 to change the semicolon after composting to comma. Second. For the discussion. All in favor of you say aye. Aye. Opposed? OK, great. That was the only flag I had on that one. And oh, so do we need to approve the whole thing now as amended? Yes, Chapter 7. Chapter 7. It's very exciting. Do we have to close the public hearing before you do that? Oh yeah, comments from the public? Thank you. Good, Jack. Good. It's good. It's good. Are there any comments? I'm going to talk about lipsies. Yeah, I'm going to need more of that. So I'll make a motion that we accept ordinance Chapter 7 as amended, final reading. OK, and I'm going to close the public hearing. I think you did. I'm sorry. Oh, no, that's OK. I just want to make sure I actually said that. So there's a motion, and there's a second. Second. OK, further discussion. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? All right. Thank you. Chapter 7, done. Yeah. Chapter 8, this is the second public hearing on Chapter 8. I'm going to open a public hearing. Lauren. Section 8, 1, did we in here, we had talked last time about cats? And I don't think it's been addressed. So I think we are still outlying cats running at large in our city if we do this. The cat lobby's going to come out of our house. We thought the dog lobby was real. Cat lobby. So I. Fair. So do you have any suggestions about that, or should we just, you know, flag it for a future reading? This would be the last one. I mean, this is theoretically the second reading. Yeah, we did four on the last chapter. How high? Just saying. Hope spring's eternal. Or just say, except cats. We could just say, except cats. So yeah, I think if we said no person owning or who has custody and control of any domestic animal, except cats, shall permit such animal to go at large or lose her unrestricted in any public street, et cetera. Is there a motion? I move that we change the language in that way. I just have to make a statement because I have neighbors in my condo association who would like us to contain cats because they are nuisance in your flower garden. That's just for the record. And also, they kill a lot of songbirds here. Keep your cats indoors. Maybe. I don't know. I don't have a cat. I should give advice. OK. All right, so there's a motion and a second for the discussion. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? OK. All right, so there's that. All cats, like, tiger, fangirl, or just domestic cats. Just domestic. I think because domestic is in the beginning of the sentence.  So yeah, it just did difficult. So that's the question. OK, any? Oh, Jack? Yeah. I just want to be sure. Has Section 8-3 been discussed with former Counselor Krueger to ensure that it addressed her concern about keeping swine? So we did not discuss this with Counselor Member Krueger. It would address her personal issue because they have 75 acres. We discussed it internally about what to do and we explained it to Lauren the other day. Some of the other examples that we saw around the state tied it to zoning ordinances or if you're in the rural district, it's OK. And if you're in the high residential district, it's not OK. But we concluded that it was really about the size of the lot and not about what district you could be in downtown and have a 10-acre lot. What's the problem? Or you could live in the district that Rosie lives in, but still have a small lot that's right next to your neighbor. We said, well, what's the reasonable size that you could have pigs and not bother your neighbors? And so I would say there's no science to the 10 acres other than we picked in. Mike Miller has some farming background that suggests the 10 acres. But I don't think if you wanted to make it seven or five or whatever. I'm totally happy with that. Yeah. So I just, that was the goal was so that we wasn't prohibiting them across the city. But it was saying, you've got to have enough land to have them. So my only thought about that was I also recall the comment about singling out swine and talking about how this really does factor in potentially for other large animals as well. I know pigs can be particularly stinky, but any large animals are kept in a small enough space could be problematic. So I wondered about instead of calling it keeping swine, just keeping large animals and no person shall keep large animals within the city limits unless et cetera. And the reason I was using the phrase large animals is because that is used later on in section eight. It's new section six. So new section eight, six of varying dead animals references large animals. So thinking of that as a technical term and actually to be fair, this is maybe saying too much at the same time. But I wondered if because we use the phrase or other large animal if that shouldn't also be defined somewhere under the definition section of 8202.  I think the only question would be just would a pig necessarily be a large animal?  Yeah, Donna. Didn't move. Moved in the past five. Yeah. You're still talking about the last. No, we're on eight. Yeah. Past seven, we're on eight now. OK. To the acceptor cats. OK, great. Yep. Cool. Donna. Just for the record, as you were told before, likewise, a farm girl, pigs are no stinkier than lambs.  Cows, all of them, can be if they're not kept right. It's a matter of how much mud is allowed to accumulate. So circumstantially, I mean, you could have llamas.  So maybe, I mean, you could say, lists maybe some of the small ones. I would say farm animals such as swine, sheep, llamas, and then larger, or just some examples. That's a good idea. But there's no way you're going to be able to list all of them. Yeah, fair. Because there are lots of different breeds, anyway. I like the idea of farm animals, too. Yeah. It might make sense to, well, it's a little complicated, because we have the 10-acre thing for a swine, but then 8-4, which comes next, talks about horses. But it says, shall not keep such stable in such place or in such manner as to be offensive to residents in the vicinity. Yeah, and that was actually the language we were trying to get rid of under the swine. Because that had been the standard before. So you're right, we didn't catch this. And I think it would be good to maybe either put an acreage limit on that. Because the problem is, who defines what's offensive? And that was the problem we had with our most recent case was, is it, in whose opinion, is it offensive? And what do you base that on? So when I put horses in there with the other farm animals and just name them, such as. And then strike all of 8-4? Yeah. Because it is about how much space and that they have to be kept healthy and non-smelly. And keep the limitation on how much manure you can keep on the premises? Sure. Well, I just. Yeah, that makes sense, sure. I've never had animals like this. No, they do accumulate. That's true for any manure of any of these animals. Yeah. So we move that up to 8-3, that last section. Yeah, so. And do we want to require 10 acres for? Horses. Goats, lambs, sheep, pigs, horses, cows, all those. Yamas? All right, Glenn. So not having a farming background in any way, except for little vegetables. 10 acres seemed large to me, even for swine. I feel like my sense of Montpelier lots, maybe five would feel more reasonable to me, especially if we're just piling all of the animals, all of the animal categories into one category. Say you have to have five acres, at least five acres, to keep farm animals. Feels better to me than 10. Just at five acres in slope doesn't give you much mass, and you need mass to keep the moving and keep the grass growing, or the green stuff growing. So you think it should be 10? I don't know the perfect. I'm just looking at Montpelier and on all our slopes, and I know how little five acres can be when you're on a slope. And Michael's not here, so he could help me out. We can do it with Google. 10 acres is approximately, let's see, never mind. I mean, it's not going to help. I'm aware that I'm not an expert on this, and I would be totally willing to go with the 10. Just struck me as large. Push back. Google says it's a good mark of one to two acres per horse. I was also thinking about that. I could Google every animal. If you have one goat, you need 10 acres. That seems like a lot. You're not going to have one goat. You're not going to have one goat? No, they don't like to be single. Fair enough. Well, so one possibility is that we've suggested some changes for this language for now. As I understand it, and correct me if you have it differently, but I've got so far that 8.3 would say basically keeping of farm animals, or we had talked about large animals, but keeping of, yeah, go ahead, Lauren. I was just looking up how agency of agriculture defines, so they have a livestock term that includes cattle, horses, sheep, swine, goats, camelids, fallow deer, and red deer is their definition of livestock, if we would just want it to go. I like that, particularly because it doesn't include chickens or ducks, and a farm animal might include. Yeah, they have a whole separate poultry section. OK, are you OK with that, Donna? So livestock? I can email that to you, Jen. OK, well, actually with these, Bill usually keeps a running check, and generally you all tend to pass it as amended. So I just take down that motion, and I'll be posting them, so I'll get the details from the check on the next slide. I think it would be a good idea to list some such as, so people get an idea of what you're talking about. I wonder if we could take the such as from that statue. And does it make sense to put it there, or in the definitions? 8.202, or do you care? I feel like the definitions 8.202, that whole section is about dogs, isn't it? Well, yeah, you're right, never mind. OK, yeah, so we'll put it in right here. OK, all right, so it's a keeping of livestock, and no person shall keep livestock within the city limits unless the livestock is kept. The livestock's such as. Oh, yes, thank you, such as, et cetera, unless the livestock is kept on a parcel greater than 10 acres of land, and then. At no time shall permit more than one half quart of manure to accumulate or remain uncovered outside said steam. Or maybe just say remain uncovered, Pierre. Well, you're covered, yeah. OK, that feels OK to me. How do you all feel? OK, great. And again, if people have comments about that later, then we'll deal with that later. But for now, it's better than I think what we have here. It's a big improvement. OK, is there a motion regarding basically sections 83 and 84? I move that we change them as just now read by the mayor. Or Bill. Or Bill. Second. OK, further discussion? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? OK, great. Any other comments on this? I had one more comment to make, which was about section 85, poultry, basically saying that poultry has to be kept in an enclosure. I feel like I have, I mean, I can think of a place in town where chickens do sometimes run across the road. Why? I don't know. But the thing is, I'm not sure that I, I don't have strong feelings about that. And if somebody wants to keep chickens sort of open, that's fine with me. But perhaps there's other reasons, like people's gardens or something, I'm not sure. Jack. I recall there was a time in the 80s or maybe in the 1990s where there was a neighborhood kerfuffle over someone's chickens getting out and running all over the neighborhood, over on First Street or someplace like that. And that might even be why we have this in here right now. So my neighbors have chickens. They get out. They get in our yard. And they go across the street. We don't really care. And I think this really is going to apply if a neighbor does care, but it gives the city a handle to respond if the chickens are becoming nuisance. Well, even the larger chicken farm that's on the corner before the roundabout by Grossman's, you all know that one up on the hill. It's the one that a lot of chickens get out. But unfortunately, they also get in the road and it's an accident happening. There's a lot of war around the field, but it's not totally enclosed. So they do make an attempt to keep them in. But it becomes a safety issue when they get in the road, that's all. OK. I guess I'm happy to keep it then. Cool. Now, we have a sheep farm on Berlin Street. Yeah. Do you know the acreage she has? I don't know. I have promised her that I'll go visit her sometime. So maybe I'll go and ask. Yes, because it needs a future adjustment. We've done so many changes. We're going to have another hearing. Or not. I would assume we do that at another time. Probably seems like we're pretty much done with this one. OK. OK, so find out, Glenn. Yeah, I'm happy to. I didn't want to forget about her. OK. Is there a motion regarding Chapter 8? I move we schedule another public hearing. I don't think we need a public hearing. This is the second one. But we just said we were going to be taking it up again, I thought. Not necessarily. Oh, OK. Glenn was going to check in. But we could potentially pass this now and then reopen it if we needed to. It's fine with me. Then I move we pass it as amended. Second. Further discussion? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? OK. And I'm going to close the public hearing on that now that we've voted. And so strategic plan update. So I have a lot to offer.  I'm going to confess that I did not do my updates before Jamie printed this and sent it out, despite her urging me to do so. So some may be out of date. We do are using this. And as you can see, we've now converted it to the new plan. We've, in part, just because of our staff changes and stuff, we're not on that. And our new assistant manager is going to be the leader of this process. So we expect we'll have more robust conversations on this in the future. We're certainly happy to answer any questions anybody has about any of the topics or updates. And we want to get more narrative update in there so people can read and see what's. I find this format more compressed and helpful. Thank you. I am under the section regarding overdoses and stats from the. This is close to the end, right? 7.1. I'm just looking forward to having some data in there. That'll be great. I assume that's sort of a placeholder. Great. And that's OK, just at some point. OK. Any further questions about your comments on this? OK, great. Well, thank you. And all right, on to council reports. Lauren, would you want to start? If not, I'll bounce over to John. I have a part today. John is going to go. So last time I talked about the Park Allusa, this is the Enchanted Forest at Hubbard Park, October 12, Saturday, 5.30 to 8. And it is marvelous. It has these different stations with little vignettes being acted out. It's lovely lit, and it's a fun time for families. So please go online, buy your tickets, and you can volunteer to help out. Because there are about probably 12 to 15 stations, and they need volunteers there to help people because it is dark, and we want to make sure people enter and exit without falling. The other thing is that just please, when you park on a street in the city, bring your rear view mirror on the driver's side in on the car. On Berry Street, those four inches make a huge difference. As it does downtown in Elm. So just take the time to bend your rear view mirror towards the car. And the other thing is a mild complaint. I'm still not doing well with the new setup how to get to the city agenda. And I was not one to complain to Jamie. I've just given up, but it is very frustrating. It's unpredictable, and particularly on my iPad, which the city wanted me to get in my beginning years of the council. And it's just less and less friendly. So one, if you're gonna change something, it would be really helpful to be talked to and after you do it to give us lessons. And then to finalize it because it keeps changing. So that's my frustration. It's been frustrating for all of us we're trying to work with the vendor to find a solution. Yeah. Just real quick, working on a draft of the responsible contracting ordinance based on the comments submitted by city staff. I think a lot of those suggestions were very reasonable. So I can make those changes also in touch with the city of Portland, Maine, which that ordinance was largely based on to see if maybe the mayor could testify over the phone at our next meeting there. And perhaps some people in city government just to see how it plays out, because there'll be most apples, dapples for everybody to hear. So that's it. I wanted to, I think I mentioned last meeting that I am planning to run a drawing class at the TW Wood Gallery for four Tuesday evenings starting October 8th. And then the 15th, 22nd, and 29th running from 6.30 to 8.30. Drawing from observation, how to draw everything. I'm looking forward to it. I encourage anyone who's interested to come or if you know someone who should have some fun with it, send them to the TW Wood Gallery's website. I've really enjoyed working with the Wood as a council representative to the board. And this feels like a good way to contribute to their program and have some fun. Otherwise, I'll be at Baguitos as usual, tomorrow 8.30 to 9.30, if anyone has anything else they wanna talk about. Enjoying that as well. At one of our previous meetings, an ordinance review, we talked about the various things that our ordinances require licenses for. And I have a conversation scheduled next week with the S. Lauren Hibbert, who's the director of licensing at the Secretary of State's office. And we're gonna be talking about approaches to licensing and why we might want or not want to license certain things. So I'll have that to add to our conversation when we take it up again. Just briefly, one event coming up that might be on Ann's report as well, but Wednesday, October 2nd, 6 to 8.30 p.m. here at City Hall, the Vermont Energy and Climate Action Network and Regional Planning Commission are organizing a gathering of energy committees from around the region and looking at transportation, which I know there's been lots of great conversations on lately. So it should be fun to hear about what some of the other groups in our region are also thinking about and working on. So again, that's October 2nd, 6 to 8.30 p.m. here at City Hall. And then just wanted to share that the Energy Efficiency Ordinance Group is hard at work and plugging away, so really excited to bring forward that work along with Ann and many others from the community that are diligently working on that. And so just stay tuned, but it isn't being forgotten. Thank you. I'm gonna tack onto that just a little bit, which is to say that that working group is what we met today. And one of the outcomes of today's meeting was that we're at the point where we're gonna start to draft some language. And just so you're aware, sort of thinking of breaking this, it's up into two parts. One being ordnance language and one being like an implementation policy. The idea being the policy would be much easier to adapt or change as we learn and grow and that the ordinance would be more sort of here's the broad requirements, but referencing this policy as to the specifics. So that's sort of the frame of that. Thank you for mentioning the transportation thing on the 2nd. Should be a great event here. Also just looking backwards a little bit. We had a great Peeler Drive Electric week a couple Saturdays ago. It was a kind of a gray day, but I think we had a good turnout for the weather. So that was awesome. I also just wanted to commend the police department for just their work and how they handled the strike last Friday. I know it was an inconvenience for people, but everyone stayed safe and that matters. So I'm very grateful for that. And then, yeah, and I mean along with that, so grateful for young people and adults raising that as an issue. It's like the most pressing issue of our time. So thank you for everyone who, you know, raised their voice there. And then there was one other thing I was gonna point out. Nope, I actually maybe that. Oh yeah, there is one other thing. A little further out October 9th is the ribbon cutting, I suppose, for the Taylor Street Projects. So very exciting. There's gonna be a little ceremony, I think starting at four, PM there. So, you know, come out to that. There's gonna be, I think, some tours of the space shortly thereafter, so should be pretty exciting. I'm really looking forward to it. So that's the only other thing I wanted to put on Embrace Radar. Joe. I just want to apologize for getting testy. I can handle the rambly motions I have for seven and a half years. Just don't ask me to read them back. Yeah, we should do better, John. Cool, thank you. Just first, just gotta update. It sounds like our water leak on Nelson Street is pretty bad, street collapsed. So yeah, there will not be water tonight and pretty serious. We were fortunate and some are lucky, I guess, that the crew was out tonight doing overnight paving work on stone cutters. We actually had a lot of people out in the area and were able to respond quickly. So it is shut off, but it's pretty severe. Just quickly, I'd also like to comment on one thing people missed, so I'll clean up. We also had a really wonderful transportation forum last week here. I appreciate all the groups that participated and the people that were here. I thought it was interesting. We all learned a lot and a lot of exciting options coming forward. Just not to get into it too deeply, but with regard to the comments at the beginning of the meeting and about City Center, we actually did look out the file. We don't find any requirement that City Center had to have public bathrooms or parking. We looked through the entire file, we reported that to the individual who requested it, and the law says that you can make it available to them and so we said either if you wanna pay the cost of this huge file or you're welcome to come in into business hours and look at it and so we have not denied him access at all and we did check both the land records and the files to see if there was any requirement that somehow we were missing. We didn't see it, but just thought people would wanna know that there was more to it. But Bill, what about the recent court case that said you didn't have to pay for public records in Vermont? Yeah, well we haven't got, yes, it had to do with the paying for the, the police and groint. Thank you, the body cams. Okay, okay, so it didn't hit all the rest? So the current law says that actual direct costs, that apparently you can't charge for, sounds to me like your own time and those sorts of things, I don't know how that affects. But we're complying by saying you can see them. We're not withholding the records from them. Okay. This is, we're not required in this case to make copies. So if he wants to have them made, that's great, we'll have them made for him, but that is beyond what we're required to provide. Okay. So I just want people to be clear we were not in any way, she performed denying anybody records request or ignoring the issues raised. So the last thing is council meetings in October. Normally we would meet on the 9th and 23rd. And I popped that out in an email there. For the 9th, the issue is actually, really is the 3rd and the 4th, I'll be at town fair, 2nd and 3rd, and then Jamie has a training thing on the 3rd and the 4th, so she won't be here. And that's our last week when we don't have any system meter. So putting together the agenda for the 9th would be a struggle. You could probably get it out Monday, the 7th. So if that people are okay with that, that's the only problem with having it on the 9th is just getting everything together and out for the agenda. On the 23rd, I will not be here, I'll be away at my annual conference and I booked all that before I do Sue is leaving. Cameron will be working here, but as I said, it'll be your 16th day. I don't know if we want to put her up here then. She's pretty feisty, but we'll see how that goes. So we could either move that date or try to keep the agenda super light, I guess would be the other option. So I just want to throw those out, make sure you're aware that these conflicts existed and whatever works. I asked Ashley and she said she didn't really have a strong preference either way, but obviously if people do have conflicts then there's no reason we can't hold them on the normal dates except there's snags with both of them. Well, I would like to have the 9th if possible and I'm willing to have the material come to me late Monday when the staff can get it ready. Okay. I want the same page. Yeah, I hate to rush you on that bill, but I think I'm on that too. That's fine. As long as people don't buy, as long as people just pre-understanding that it will come out Monday then we're good. I mean, if that was the concern. Late Monday, I mean five o'clock. Well, we get a lot of it done in advance anyway, but that's fine. Okay, so. So staying on the 9th. Yeah, 9th is better. This was my first time I was gonna say I would need childcare for the night if it was the 16th. So we can avoid that having to. Okay, so we're gonna keep it on the 9th then and just know that we're gonna get our packets a little late. Okay. And then the 23rd, what do you? Moving to the 30th. 30th is fine with me. It's fine, yeah, okay. Well, you won't see me because I'm gonna be at the Zen Buddhist monastery for two weeks. And then you won't be testing anymore. Right, I'll be one with the whole room. You'll just bring back one of those sticks. And the 23rd was the day before Thanksgiving anyway, right? Well, this is October 23rd. Oh, it was October. We had another jacked-in bring-up. We've already claimed to move to November and December meetings, because of that. Thank you, definitely. It's only, it's not even nine o'clock. Maybe the Zen Buddhist Thanksgiving, I don't know. But Jack did bring up the Thanksgiving, which would be good to look at now. We have always scheduled that. If we haven't, yeah, I guess we haven't officially done it, but typically we meet the 3rd Wednesday, which would be the 20th instead of the 27th, because that is the night before Thanksgiving of November. They usually come, usually when we give you your budget scheduled, those are in there. And the same thing, obviously with December, the 4th one is actually the 25th this year. So unless you all want to be on Christmas night, that could be great, you know, a small crowd. Before we leave it though, so are we okay with moving to the 30th of September instead of the 20th of October? Oh my goodness. We have you totally confused. Yeah, I'm sorry, 30th of October instead of the 23rd. Yes, that's a good. Okay, sorry, whoo, okay. And then we would be the 13th and 20th of November instead of the 13th and 27th. Yes. And we would be the 11th and 18th of December instead of the 11th and 25th. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm just putting this in my calendar. Can you say the December ones again? 11th and 18th. 11th and 18th, great, perfect. And that's consistent with our practice for the last 25 years. Okay, I'm feeling set. Well, thank you for accommodating that on the 23rd and 30th. That's great. You get talking about December and all I can think is budget. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Let's go back to September. Okay, I think that is our regular business. So without objection, we'll consider the meeting adjourned.