Good afternoon. I am Major Jennifer Chang. Major Mitch Mays and I had the opportunity to interview General Lori Robinson in her office at Northcom. We learned of her incredible stories and found ourselves honored to be in her presence. She is an inspiration and we are excited you too get to hear her story. We will conduct an on-stage interview following a brief video that highlights General Robinson's illustrious career. General Lori J. Robinson was born in Big Springs, Texas and is the oldest of five children. With the father that spent 30 years in the Air Force, the general was no stranger to the sacrifices by military members and their families. General Robinson attended the University of New Hampshire where she graduated in 1981 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in English. She began her military career as an Air Battle Manager in 1982 after receiving her commission from the Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps program. Upon commission General Robinson attended the Air Weapons Control School at Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida. Over the next four years General Robinson had a number of assignments where she grew to become an experienced tactician before heading to her most formulative assignment as a distinguished graduate and instructor as the United States Air Force Weapons School at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada. The general had the opportunity to serve in a variety of operational and staff assignments while earning a Master of Arts degree in Leadership Management from Troy University and a Master of Arts degree in National Security and Strategic Studies from the College of Naval Command staff. General Robinson has commanded an operations group, a training wing, an air control wing and deployed as a Vice Commander of the 405th Air Expeditionary Wing where she led more than 2,000 airmen in operations enduring an Iraqi freedom. The general was also an Air Force Fellow at the Brookings Institution and served at the Pentagon as a Director of Secretary of the Air Force and Chief of Staff of the Air Force Executive Action Group. In 2008 General Robinson penned on Brigadier General becoming the first Air Battle Manager to earn a star. After entering the general officer ranks, she went on to serve on the Joint Staff as a Deputy Director for Force Application and Support in the Directed of Force Structure Resources and Assessment at the Pentagon prior to becoming the Air Force's Conduit to Congress as the Director of the Legislative Liaison Office, Office of the Secretary of the Air Force. General Robinson also served as the Deputy Commander of U.S. Air Force's Central Command and the Deputy Combined Force Air Component Commander at the U.S. Central Command, Southwest Asia. General Robinson set yet another milestone when she became the first female general to command combat forces as the Commander of Pacific Air Forces and the Air Component Commander for U.S. Pacific Command. In 2016 she was appointed as the Commander of North American Aerospace Defense Command and U.S. Northern Command making her the first female Unified Combatant Commander and the highest ranking female in the United States Military History. Ladies and gentlemen, please rise as we welcome General Robinson to the Gathering of Eagle stage. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Please take your seats. I have to tell you it's an honor and a privilege to be here. I was just speaking with General Shelton and telling him we were concerned because we were in Nashville heading south and Alberta was in Montgomery heading north. There's nothing wrong. Nothing bad can happen out of all of that, so we're excited to have made it. So over to you. We're glad you made it, ma'am. Again, thank you for coming out. This has been an amazing year and to be able to to do this research and get to sit down and speak with you in Colorado Springs a few months back was just an awesome experience and I thank you for that experience. Before we jump in and begin discussing your career, can you tell us what inspired you to join the Air Force? So as you heard in the introduction, my dad was in the Air Force. He served for 30 years. He was an RF-4 or RF-101 pilot. I'm the oldest of five. From the oldest to the youngest is six years. Do that math. And when it came time for me to start getting ready to go to college, my dad said to me, Lori, why don't you go to the Air Force Academy?  I've been doing this Air Force thing for 18 years. You know, I've had enough of this. I want to go to the University of Texas and people say, well, why did you want to go to the University of Texas? Well, because I was born in Texas, right? So hook them horns. And so I was like, I want to go there and my father smiled as nicely as my father could. And he said, well, if I'm paying, you're going to the University of New Hampshire because that's our state of residence. Oh yes. And so as I started, you know, I wanted to be a teacher, actually. I wanted to teach. I started majoring in French and German. And Friday nights got to be a little more rushes that I had planned on. So that's when I turned to English and decided that I would I would still continue to teach. And at the end of my sophomore year, I discovered that I was going to have to get a master's in education in order to teach and be granted that degree to leave. And so I thought, well, I can't handle a fifth year in college. You know, four is going to be well enough in a fifth. I just think I'm not going to be able to handle it. So I joined ROTC and I thought, well, you know, I'll do this Air Force thing for a little bit and and and hang out and see what I want to do when I grow up. I mean, what was interesting about that the professor of aerospace science, my father was the best man at his wedding. No back stories going back there at all.  And I was like, well, no way am I calling my dad to get me out of anything. And then the second thing that happened with him, and then I'll finish this up, but was when I became the cadet wing commander, you know, he stands up to introduce me as the cadet wing commander. And he says to the entire audience, I remember when Lori was this big, like that's what you want somebody to tell all your peers and the people that are in your ROTC detachment. But, you know, so I wasn't necessarily inspired. But it was something that I was comfortable with. And then obviously it's something that I became passionate about. Well, we're glad you you took the air battle manager route. You didn't get it changed. Do you know much about that? I had no idea. In fact, what I was told was that I would sit in a brick room, talk to pilots, and it would be cold and dark. And that's how good it would be. And I wanted to be public affairs, you know, so it's a little bit different. Yes. Yes. So you talk a lot about your experiences at the United States Air Force, weapons school, fighter weapons school at the time. And as I understand, you were the first female instructor at the time. Can you tell us about your time there? And yeah, it's probably one of the places that imprinted me a lot. So I was really lucky when I was a it was then called a weapons controller at Tyndall Air Force Base and Eglin Air Force Base had three F-15 squadrons and they used to fly in the ranges that we controlled in a lot. And I had a couple of folks kind of take me under their wing and teach me about how to do my job better from their perspective, not my perspective. And they would come over and sit down and we would look at their tapes and look at my tapes and I learned a lot. Well, one of them ended up going through fighter weapons school and then going to the F-15 at the time called Division. And we were just then starting the weapons controller division. So at the time there was F-4s, F-15s, F-16s, A-10s, and F-111s. And we were just starting up the weapons controller division. And so this one particular F-15 pilot said you need to hire Laurie. You know, she's probably one of the best controllers I've ever had worked with. And so I ended up being the last of the original cadre of the division at the time. But the experience for me at the time, and it's not the same now, so it was a rough career field. And so when I would sit and do missions and sit and watch as we would brief, execute, reconstruct, debrief, and watch everybody try to learn the best lessons that they could learn and try to make sure that they were the best that they could be and wanted to understand how to be better the next time that we all went out and flew together, for me that was amazing. But the other thing that I watched there and had the privilege to have the wing commander was a guy by the name of Brigadier General John P. Jumper. And you know, for those of us that have had the privilege to serve for him, with him, and around him, he is a leader's leader. But what I watched there was people taking care of each other, was people walking into a briefing room, briefing, executing, reconstructing, debriefing, and walking out and taking care of each other. And General Jumper, the first time I've ever heard this was when he was our wing commander, was he said to us, you're part of something bigger than yourself. And I didn't know what that meant until I served my three years there and watched to see how people were a part of the team, that it wasn't about any individual, it was about getting the mission done. It wasn't about making sure that I, you know, had the best calls or whatever. It was making sure that I did the best that I could do with the teammates that I was with to ensure that we could practice what we did every single day, day in and day out. So that if we ever had to go to war, that I was ready, that I was prepared to do my job. And at the end of that, and as I moved on, it became more and more clear to me that we are a part of something bigger than ourselves, that it's not about me, it's about us, and it's about the team, and it's about what we do as an airman, as part of the joint fight, coalition fight, ally fight, that anything we do, we do together. And I think, for me, that was one of the biggest imprints was this teamwork, part of something bigger than yourself, and to be the very best that you can be each and every day, no matter what they ask. And have you on the radio, I'm sure? Well, so I will say the greatest compliment in my entire 37-year career, I think that I've ever had when I was a captain there. One of the pilots at the fighter weapons school said to me, when I go to war, I want Lori on the radio. And I can't think of a better compliment than that, if you're a weapons controller, and that's your job to talk to people about what you see so they can make sure that they do the very best that they can do. Air battle management has changed over the years. What were some of the most significant changes that you've seen in the ABM community throughout your career and some of the impact of those changes? Yeah, so I think probably the first huge change in the career field was when we became rated, 1999. And when we became rated, it put us, not on par, isn't the right word, but it made us as part of the flying community. And it changed, I think, our culture and the way we thought about what we do as a job. We're not just somebody that's sitting in a brick building. We're somebody that's in the mission planning room, sitting side by side with our compatriots. We're somebody that's sitting in the debriefing room listening to the tapes and understanding what's on the tapes. We're part of making sure that we have the right thing at the right place at the right time, that we have the accountability of what's happening on the air tasking order, that we understand the area air defense plan, that we understand all those things. And for us as a community, that was huge. So that was the good news. The good, bad news about that was the fact that if you were going to go fly in the E3 or the E8, you would go through Tyndall and not fly. And so we would be rated, but we would be what they call late rated. And so that became a problem in people's careers to be able to go to the staff, to be able to do other things so that they could meet the same flying gates that everybody else has to. So I think the second big thing that happened in the career field was when we were able to start flying down at Tyndall in our basic school and start our rating at the very beginning of the career so that those same opportunities for folks as you went through your career, meeting your gates, the ability to go to staff, come here to school, do some of those things, and populate the ground tax, the ground part, and add to all of that. I think those are probably the two major things in the career field that have changed. But as you look at technology and how technology has changed, whether it's data links, whether it's stealth, whether it's the ability, how do I disseminate information as quickly as possible to ensure that what we've got for folks is the right thing at the right place at the right time, I think that's also changed. I was talking to General Horigian a few months ago, and he's the CFAC right now over in the desert, and he's an amazing leader outright, and he had flown a few times on the E3. And it was fun to listen to him talk about how great the crews were doing, and he'd flown on the E8, and it was fun to listen to him talk about the things that he learns when he goes and flies, so he can put that in his head as the CFAC and understand what's also happening in the tactical note of command and control. Just to have that interaction is just huge. But I think those two things with the changing technologies are probably the things that, as I have witnessed, now I have to be honest here, I can't even tell you the last time I flew. But the privilege that I had when I was in Qatar to talk to some of the air crew members, we just had NORAD 60th out at Colorado Springs, and they brought an E3 crew in and an E3, so I got to go jump on the airplane. And say, yay, 552. And see that. But just knowing how things have changed over time and in listening to the chatter, it's been interesting. In June 2002, you became the commander of the 552 operations group home of the mighty E3. During that time, you also deployed to Southwest Asia as the fourth, fifth air expeditionary wing vice commander. What was that like? So, you know, it was interesting, actually. It was interesting because if you looked at the airplanes that were in the wing at the time, it was the B1s, it was the E3s, and it was the KC135s. And so first of all, I had the opportunity to fly there a few times, and I was really grateful for that, to fly on the E3 and to fly in the B1 and the tanker. And I was grateful to get their perspectives on what they saw, how they were perceiving what was happening over there, what their role and responsibilities were there. Secondly, to have the opportunity because the commander, Jim Kowalski, at the time, he flew a lot, and so he was gone. And so then you're the person that's sitting there in charge. And so to do that in a wartime venue in Oman and understanding the role and responsibility of the wing commander, it gave me insight to this level of diplomacy, this level of interaction with the local community. And in fact, the base commander at thumb rate later in life became the chief of staff for the Omani Air Force, and I got to see him when I was at Qatar when I went down to Oman for a safety meeting. So you never know about these relationships that you develop, not just amongst ourselves but with our friends and with our allies. And you nurture those, and those are incredibly important. And so to have the ability to weekly or twice weekly go meet with the base commander and to sit down and talk and understand, and then he ended up coming here to school, in fact. And so to give him a farewell party and just to know somebody on a personal level was a great experience for me. And it made me much more aware of things that are going on and that role of diplomacy that you also play when you're in a leadership position, not just worrying about generating sorties or maintenance, that's the ops group commanders and the maintenance group commander's job to do. But this notion of who's with you, who are you working with? And that was very, very helpful when I went back to the Middle East later to be the deputy air component commander and understanding that role and responsibility.  A few years later you went back to Tinker to become the wing commander. What prepared you for that? So a couple things I would say. First of all, as the group commander, I had three wing commanders. And I had one particular wing commander that was, and they were all fine in their own right, everybody's different and has a different style. But one particular wing commander, and I'll say this, can you imagine coming in and being a group commander and having a new wing commander, and your husband was his IP at pilot training. And outranked him. So that level of nerves was already heightened enough. And then he had come from Saudi Arabia and it's General Hostage. He had come from Saudi Arabia and we used to do tail swaps all the time over into Saudi. And his ops group commander and I used to have highly energized conversations on the phone. Did you get that? And it had to do with the number of air crew members that were on the airplane that we were doing a tail swap with. And I finally was like, seriously, this is my job. I'm supposed to bring you a new jet. We're going to swap it out and we'll come back. And so you can only imagine as we're sitting down at our first, you know, everybody that has stand-ups knows about stand-ups. And so one of the early stand-ups with General Hostage was we were doing a tail swap to Saudi Arabia. So he looked at me and I said to the team, okay, guys, because I had seven squadrons at the time. I was seven squadron commanders, about 2,200 airmen working for me. And I said, he's going to ask about this tail swap because he's here now and he's going to see it from this size. We need to be prepared for this. And sure enough, you know, comes, the slide comes up, we're doing a tail swap. And he says, so Lori, let's talk about this for a minute. And I go, you bet, boss. And I said, let me tell you, here's how many is on the crew. Here's the training they're getting on the way over. Here's the training they're going to get on the way back. Here's the last time, you know, that they've all been to the desert. Here's the next time they're going, you know, just to kind of give them some context of who is on the crew. So about two slides later comes a slide that talks about a tail swap to Oman. And he says, well, how are the tail swaps to Oman? And I smiled and I said, not nearly as difficult as the ones to Saudi Arabia. He looked at me and smiled. He was an incredible wing commander. He taught me about empowering my squadron commanders. He taught me that it's okay if squadron commanders don't have exactly the correct answer. And if he didn't exactly appreciate what the squadron commander had to say, he would tap in front of me and he would say, hey, Lori, let's talk for a minute afterwards. And it allowed me to teach the squadron commanders to be better than I was as a group commander. It reinforced the notion that I was a part of something bigger than myself and that it wasn't about me. It was about the ops group. And the opportunity to teach in his environment was incredible. And so when I left there to go to be the wing commander at Goodfellow, you know, I had this whole experience where he was able to teach me about how to make people that work for me better than me. Because at some point in time, we're all going to retire. And my husband's really excited. We have a date now. He's like, yay. And if we can make the people that work with us and work for us better than us, then we've made the institution better because we're part of something bigger than ourselves.  And so to have had that ops group command experience with a leader that taught me about how to be a wing commander and then having commanded a wing in Texas for a year and then coming back, you know, the comfort level was there because I understood the mission. But the comfort level wasn't there because I needed to understand maintenance better, right? I needed to understand our comm group better. I needed to not get in the ops group commander's business, let the ops group commander run the ops group and let me understand these other parts. So it taught me about how to understand other things, not my comfort zone. You know, when I was a Goodfellow, I was the installation commander. We had a med group and a mission support group. I knew nothing about that. And so all those experiences allow you to continue to open your lens and open your lens and continue to teach you about different parts of our air force because every single person in our air force contributes to getting the job done, every single person. And so the more you understand that every person contributes to get the job done, then the better you are about understanding that you're a part of something bigger than yourself. So as a captain, you're stationed in Hawaii from 89 to 92 at a headquarters PACAF as the chief of current operations and command briefer. What was it like going back a few short 24 years later as the PACAF commander? Eye-opening, astonishing. Can I tell you what it was like to leave Honolulu? Oh my goodness. I had to buy pants and shoes and jackets and everything. So it was really different. When you walk into a place and you're following an amazing leader like Hawk Carlisle, who is just an incredible, incredible leader, and you know that he's done great stuff, but the command was changing and was being shaped from an organized train and equip command to being an air component command to Admiral Locklear at first and then Admiral Harris. And so to be able to be a part of that shaping about how to think like an air component, not organized train and equip, although we had to do some of that still, and how to think about what would happen on the Korean Peninsula because things were starting to get a little bit heated then. How do we organize ourselves and how do we sit back and ensure that the things that we need to provide for the folks either on the peninsula and Guam or Japan have the capability and the things that they need while thinking about execution in the theater of 52% of the globe? I see a couple Navy people in here, so I have to say this. So Admiral Locklear, and I didn't say it, so please realize Admiral Locklear said this. So at my change of command at PACAF, Admiral Locklear commented that PAYCOM is 52% of the globe, and everybody obviously agrees with that. And he commented that 83% of that was water, sea. 100% of that is air. That's all I've got. Anyway, and Admiral Locklear. So I just quote Admiral Locklear. That's all I do. But to understand the enormity of that and the logistical nightmare and the need to understand how are we going to move things and bombs, bullets, people, anything that we need to do should something happen was hugely important. And so I had to take going from being the command briefer to General Jimmy V. Adams, and I'll tell you a story here real quick about him. But to now being the person sitting at the end of the table was incredibly surreal, was incredibly humbling and honoring, and was something that I had to make sure that I didn't, the last thing I ever wanted to do was let Admiral Locklear down and let Chief Welch down, and let the staff and all the airmen that are being asked to do the mission down. And so it was humbling. Interesting, I had a commander's conference and I invited previous commanders to come back for a commander's conference, and General Adams came back. And so it was very nice to see him all those years later and have the privilege to talk to him and tell him how much I appreciated what he did and the privilege to brief him. Everybody recognizes you as the first female combat commander and the highest ranking female in U.S. military history. But you're also the first air battle manager, general officer, inter-role model, so many people. What advice do you have for the young leaders in and out of the military? So I'm going to say a couple of things here. I appreciate the notion of being the first. But I'm not a commander anymore, but when I was, I would say I'm a commander. I'm a general. I'm an airman.  And that's the way I think about that. And so while I recognize those accomplishments and I recognize that I am at a level you know, somebody that people look up to, it goes back to I'm a part of something bigger than myself. And if I put my gender above all those other things, you know, then what I've done is I've not recognized that I'm a part of something bigger than myself. So I want to, I think it's important to say that. The other thing I would sit back and say honestly is that to me it's always been about attitude, aptitude and opportunity. You know, for me I'm a glass half full kind of girl. You know, I'll tell you every day is rum cake. Some days you need a little more rum and a little less cake. But every day is a great day. And it's important to me. I will tell you and I'll be emotional here for a minute. So please forgive me that that notion of living every day to its fullest and enjoying every single day and having that positive attitude. I've learned that through my mom's death, my brother's death and my daughter's death.  And then that goes back to aptitude, right? You know, be the best at whatever anybody asks you to do. I can deal as a commander as a section leader as a division chief. I can deal with anybody that has a great attitude and is trying their hardest. You know, if you try your hardest, if they want you to sweep the floor, be the best floor sweeper. If they want you to, you know, do whatever be the best and have the great attitude.  And then you'll be amazed at the opportunity.  And so to have the privilege years later to be his executive officer, what an opportunity. That opportunity was amazing because of the impressions and the things that I tried as a captain and then as a Lieutenant Colonel to sit outside his door at Air Combat Command. And so I would tell anybody I don't I don't your badge and wings and no badge or whatever means is interesting. But what's compelling is you as the human being and your attitude and your aptitude. And so those would be the things that I would say. Thank you. You've had a tremendous career. But I'm sure there are some challenges along the way. And as you kind of hit on some of those in resiliency has been been a major topic in the military lately. What are your thoughts on resiliency? And can you share some of your experiences with us? So it is so important to take care of yourself. And it starts with, you know, I always talk about it as emotional. So you have to take care of yourself emotionally, right? How many of us are anal type A overachiever control freaks? Raise your hand every single one of you, right? Anal type A overachiever control freaks. How many of you think that you're the best compartmentalizer in the world? We walk out of the house, something's going on at home, right? We won't deal with that. We're going to go to work. We go to work. Nothing's happening. You know, we can push that down. We're at work. Something happens at work and we go at home and we go, Yeah, we're not going to deal with that right now. How many of us do that? Yeah, yeah, we all do that, right? But the problem with that is, the problem with that is that it's going to come out at some point in time, whatever anxieties that you have, or the things that you're personally emotionally dealing with, is going to come out. And it always comes out exactly at the wrong place at the wrong time. And we unintentionally take it out on somebody we really didn't mean to and really didn't want to. I always talk about when I go home, my husband always meets me at the door with a glass of wine or a martini depending upon the day. It's wonderful.  I go change into what I call my comfy cosies. I sit down. He can talk, chat, but I probably just listen a little bit. And my husband calls at work in doost amnesia. He's like, What happened today? And I'm like, Yeah, I don't know. Keep talking. And so about an hour into it, you know, after we've watched the news or, well, I haven't cooked in a while, so I've got to get used to that again. But I finally can remember what's going on or what happened during the day. And it's not that I've forgotten. It's just when you sit there all day long, and it's a rush of information for 12 or 14 hours coming at you, it takes a minute for you to kind of decompress. So then I'll sit down and I decompress with my husband. And then you know what happened? And then you know what they did? And then you know what that guy did? You'll never believe what happened, you know? And so I can get it off my chest.  So take care of yourself emotionally. Take care of yourself physically. And I will tell you, I'm going to sit here and tell you that physically isn't just what you eat, but also work out. And I have been horrible for two years. I cannot wait to start working out again. But take care of yourself physically, both working out and eating correctly. And then the last thing I talk about is taking care of yourself spiritually. Whatever that means to you. David and I have a book next to our bed. We read a passage every single night and take time to reflect on the day. That's a day, a way that we try to. Because the more you take care of yourself, then the more resilient you can be. It's hard if you don't take care of yourself on a day in and day out basis. It makes it difficult. Okay, I'm going to go be resilient today, right? And in fact, I'll tell you, it builds up over time. And sometimes your health suffers. And you don't know it. And so you have to take care of yourself. And that will lead into having a good conversation on the times of ultra stress when you need to have a quiet, resilient moment, when you need to talk to somebody, when you need to go do that.  You've got to do it every day. And somebody's going to ask me about a health life balance. And so I'll just drive right into that. I sucked. I was horrible. Early on in my career, I didn't do it well. I will tell you, while later in my career, I got better at it, because I understood that I wasn't doing a good job of it early on. That doesn't mean that as you get higher in rank, and your roles and responsibilities get greater and greater, and there's a lot of people down in these first couple of rows that can tell you this, that the stress builds up over time.  And people are like, wow, that's early. Well, shoot, I have all these phones at my house. They can find me there. You know, it's not like I'm not findable. And I've got all sorts of phones hanging off the belt, you know? So I would tell you, look what's important. Try very hard, because that too builds up over time. And it takes a toll on your body. And I, you know, I had a friend that hurt his knee and had to have knee surgery, and I saw him well after he had had the surgery. And I was like, how's it going? And he's like, I'm back running again, and it's great. And I'm like, are you sure you should be running? Oh, yeah, I feel great. And I go, I'm not talking about running for today. I'm talking about walking when you're 80. You know, I'm talking about making sure that when you have the privilege and when you make the decision to retire, that you have the time to spend with your family. And then you can enjoy that too. One last question, then I'm taking questions. Yes, ma'am. Just kind of tying that. What was, what is the most memorable, memorable leadership challenge you've had to face in your career? And how did that challenge affect you? This last job. It wasn't necessarily a leadership challenge. It was a, it was a commander challenge. You know, I tell people, you know, when, first of all, I can't think of a better job to end my career in as commanding NORAD in U.S. Northern Command, the sacred responsibility of defending our homeland. And, and understanding day in and day out that I'm responsible to the president of the United States in my Northern Command hat and responsible to the prime minister of Canada and the president of the United States in my NORAD hat. It was, it was, it was an amazing change to go from being a major commander in our air force to, to being a combatant commander and, and responsible to, for two nations in the air domain. But what, again, what I, what I really learned again is this notion of being a part of something bigger than yourself and the fact that I had amazing staff, I had incredible subordinate commanders. And if I could provide the right guidance and allow them to do their job in, in what I would call my deputies would go down and in so to the staff and the subordinate commanders and my role and responsibility was up and out to the chairman, to the secretary, to the Congress, to the president, to the public, to our citizens, to governors that, that I needed to, to do that. And so I, I think that as a leader and a commander has probably, was probably the hardest thing that I've, I have ever, ever done. But I can't think of anything better than to finish out my career than defending our homelands. And I, I will have to say this. I'm very excited. I do not sleep with my cell phone anymore. It's great. So we, we'll definitely open it up to questions right now. So ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question, please step to the microphones and we'll take those. Yep. Please don't be shy. If I don't want to answer it, I'm really good at saying I'm not answering that. Yep. Sure. Yes, ma'am. Hello, Lieutenant Commander Duarte, Flight 23. I've been fortunate enough as a parent to raise two wonderful boys.  She's awesome, very smart and does things better than most boys. What one piece of advice would you give her when she gets teased for being better than the boys, when she gets kind of laughed at or ridiculed? Well, I was never better than the boys. So I'll have to think about that for a second. Just tell her to be her. You know, I, I tell people, don't worry about what anybody else thinks. You know, as long, you know, as long as you're being true to yourself and as long as you're, you're, you're doing what you know is the right thing to do and, and you're working the best that you can be, all those other people are interesting but not compelling, right? To me, I, and I will tell you this though, I've had to learn that over time myself. You know, I've, I, you know, I've, I've had to learn a lot over time. But be true to, be true to herself and make her dad proud. You know, that's, that's what's important. All those people giving you a hard time, it's not easy. I'm not trying to say it's easy. So don't misinterpret that. But, but I think, you know, we, we, we sometimes worry a lot about what other people think. I mean, and I'll use my example for me. You know, when you walk into the room and you're the only woman in the room, as happens to me a lot and, or had over time.  Well, my voice is as important as anybody else's voice is. And so I learned over time that if I'm passionate about it and I believe in it and I believe in myself, that's what's important. Does that, is that helpful? Perfect. Thank you, ma'am. Yep. Yes, sir. Good afternoon, ma'am. Major Rosgurt, Flight 10. A constant theme we've had in ACSC has been the political military integration. At your level as a four star and your constant, your previous commands, what information could you give us, tidbits from what you would, what we would like to be as a major going forward and command. And the second question is, can you say what, what was the constant theme? I didn't hear that. Political military integration. Political military integration? Yes. Okay. And the second question is, what boat are you building? Thanks. What boat am I building? Yeah, you must have read the book. So let's talk the second one first. So my husband and I have, when earlier, we owned a sailboat. And so we used to go to Annapolis on the weekends to get away from Washington, D.C. And then we sold that and we're now building a trawler because we want to do a lot of boating. We're going to move to St. Petersburg, Florida. In fact, we're going to get there tomorrow. My husband's like, yay. And we're going to build a house and we're building a trawler. So we're excited to do boating excursions. Political military, here's what I would say. Given all the opportunities that I've had, one, to testify in Congress, two, to work Lodge affairs, what's important is to understand our role in our lane. And our role in our lane is to talk about our capabilities and talk about the things that we are doing to do our job. And as a squadron commander, I would tell you your role and responsibility is to ensure that your next echelon commander up knows not just the good, but the bad and the ugly. Because if you don't know the bad and the ugly, then echelon up commanders can't do anything about it. Because the more as an example, as a wing commander, the more I understood what was happening in the wing from a dynamics, whether it was parts for maintenance, whether it was, do we have the flying hour program right? Are we getting the hours we need? Are we getting the training? Or from the comm squadron, are we getting the capability? Then that allows me then to give to the major command commander or the air combat command commander the things that we need to be able to do that their job so that when they're talking to the chief, they're able to talk about the things that they need to ensure to get the job done to do the things that the national command authority might ask us to do. It's so important. I tell everybody, and I tell I've told all my commanders and my staff over time, the commander sets the tone. So if you set a tone where people don't want to come and talk to you about the bad and the ugly, then that's not a good tone to set. You have to create the environment with which people are comfortable to talk to you, not just about the good, but also the bad and ugly. So if you don't know it, you can't help. And so now when you take it to the political level, you know, it's my role and responsibility, whether it's testifying in Congress, whether it's having office calls with members of Congress, whether it's going to the Hill like I did last year, all during hurricane season to talk about what we were doing. The important part is to stay in your lane and understand your role and responsibility as you report to members of Congress on what you're doing. Does that answer your question? Okay. Thanks. Good afternoon, ma'am. Major Rich Har, Flight 37. I was curious your thoughts on how do we do a better job at building joint leaders from the air perspective? You know, it's a fascinating question. I think the most important part, first of all, I tell everybody every single day I am an unabashed airman. But I know I'm a part of the joint fight. So it's understanding what it is that we're doing, you know, and ensuring that as we either build plans to go execute something or sit down on the joint staff, first of all, is to understand what everybody else does and what they bring to the fight. The question becomes, you know, how can we do that earlier? And there's some limitations for some folks. As a rated person, it's difficult early on in your career to do it. So it becomes a later thing that you end up doing just because of, you know, some of the things that wickets that folks have to go through. But the more that you, no matter where you're at, and I think everybody would agree with this, when we go downrange, there's never a question about the joint fight, right? We're all in this together. It's now, how do we do things on staffs and all of that? But the earlier that we can understand what everybody else does, and if we can continue to go back into some joint capability, it makes it so much better, and you become a better joint commander. I will tell you that my time at Qatar as the Air Component Commander for General Mattis allowed me to understand how to be a better component commander so that when I became the PAKF commander working for Admiral Locklear and Admiral Harris, it allowed me to understand how do we do this joint thing together, even though I'm still in the Air Force, but because of this time which allowed me to be, I hope, a better commander in Colorado Springs. So it starts with understanding and making sure that we understand what everybody's capabilities are, how do we bring those to bear, and then be a part of the joint, and coalition and ally team. Yes, sir. Good afternoon, ma'am. Good afternoon, ma'am. How in your career have you managed to best find face time with your subordinates as a junior officer and then as you become more and more senior? General Holland mentioned that he would find time to go on runs with special operations guys. That was the best way he's been able to do that. How have you done that in your career? So it's, for me, it was a couple things. Depending upon where I was, if I was the ops group commander at Tinker, the wing commander at Tinker, just getting on an airplane and go flying with the crew, and I wouldn't let squadron commanders come with me. I didn't want any hand holders. I didn't want anybody to tell me who I could and couldn't talk to. And I would do my position mission crew commander on the jet, and then halfway through the flight, I would start at the cockpit and work my way all the way through the airplane to get to the and get at the back end of the airplane. Or it was just walking in, if I was a good fellow, walking into a squadron and going and say hi and meeting new people, you know, even in this last command every Wednesday, I would try and go to someplace different and just show up in the workplaces and say hi and thank them for what they were doing. But no matter how you do it, it's getting out from behind your desk, from behind your computer, from behind answering emails, and all of that, and going out and saying thank you. And listening to what people have to say, not hearing, but listening to what they have to say. To understand, you know, things from their perspective and again create an environment where they're comfortable to talk to you. It was always fun when we would land, when I would land at Tinker, you know, and you could see the squadron commander fretfully waiting to see what did they say to her.  But it's important, no matter what level you're at, whether it's a squadron, whether it's a division, whether it's group, it doesn't matter. You have folks that you're working with and are working for you, you know, getting up and walking around and going to see them and see where they live.  So I can see where they live, where they work, and what it's like for them, so I understand better. So anything to get out from behind the desk, you know, I'm not the best runner or PT or so. You know, that, bless you General Holland. You know, but it was my way to get out from behind my desk to go see folks. And we forget sometimes about that human-to-human action and reaction. We forget the need to see human people and that there are people that are doing the hard work. The last thing, you know, when I would get prepped for a trip to go to Washington D.C. with the Secretary or with the President or go and do other things, I wanted to make sure that the folks that did all the hard work were the ones that prepped me so that I could tell them thank you. And then the last thing I ever wanted to do was let them down and mess up in front of the Secretary or the President because of all the work that they did day in and day out on all of this. So what else? I think we're good for about one more. One more question. Good afternoon, General. Major Bruce Poofal from Flight 23. In your opinion, how significant of a threat is Russia's recent power projection in the Arctic and should we allocate the resources to match it? Yeah. So I talk about capability, capacity and intent. So if I look at what Russia's doing from a capability perspective, we all know that they are building capability over time, right? Whether it's from their air launch cruise missiles, sea launch cruise missiles, they're able to hold targets at risk at ranges that we're not used to, right? So from a capability perspective, they definitely are building capability. We see what they can do and what they've done over time in Syria. You look at capacity, right? We see that they are building their capacity with this capability. But when you think about intent, and I'll speak sublimely just to the air domain to against the United States, so air domain United States intent, we don't see a lot of intent, right? And so, of course, they flew on NORAD's 60th birthday, happy birthday NORAD on the 11th of May.  But there's the intent in the air domain, specifically, we don't see a lot of that. And so we just, we have to continue to monitor and understand what they're doing in their country in the Arctic, and then continue to understand how to operate in the Arctic. Because as I say often, you know, we've had our toes in the sand for a very, very, very long time. We need to probably stick our feet in the snow just a little bit to understand because that's totally different operating environment, and to understand that as we continue to see what Rush is doing. Does that answer your question? You bet. Well, General Robinson, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you. Before you go, we do have a special presentation for you. Thank you. Colonel retired Mark Brown. Great. Can I say one thing while he's coming on the stage? Is that okay? So I hope you guys enjoyed your year here. I hope you made new friends. I hope you learned something that you didn't know about before.  It's not often you have an opportunity to sit and think and sit and do things and spend more time with your families than a lot of you probably have had before. So I hope you enjoyed your time here, and I wish each and every one of you nothing but well wishes as you move forward to whatever it is you've got going next. So thanks, sir. Thank you, ma'am. Well, Colonel Droganski, thank you for a moment on the stage here to do something rather important. I represent the Dalians. That's a professional society of military aviators founded here at Maxwell, goes all the way back to the period following the victory in World War One 1918. And several, several army aviators found themselves at a new Air Corps tactical school here at Maxwell Field. And they realized they had something very special and common. They were all a new profession called military aviators. That is, they had taken airplanes into combat. And to grab ahold of that legacy and sustain it, they founded a professional society called the Dalians. And for many years it was pilots. Today it is truly military aviators. We have navigators and pilots and flight surgeons, and we have air battle managers. And so I'm very, very pleased to announce that just recently General Robinson has joined the roles of the Dalians. And I'm here to, on behalf of our national commander, Lieutenant General Retired Doug Owens, just very, very much from my heart say congratulations and welcome, welcome. We are absolutely honored to have you join our organization. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that a lot. Thanks. All right, everybody. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day. Carry on, carry on.


Hello, and welcome to this session in which we would look at a CPA simulation or an exercise that deals with compilation and reviews. Now many non-public companies, what they do is they have their financial statements either reviewed or compiled and reviews and compilations are under the statements on standard for accounting and review services, SARS. And this topic is heavily tested on the CPA exam. And the reason is simple. When you work in a CPA firm, you're gonna be dealing with many small and medium-sized companies, mom and pop stores. They don't require an audit. They either require a compilation or a review. Therefore, the topic is heavily tested on the exam. What we'll do in this session is go over 10 procedures to determine whether this procedure is required for a compilation, required for review, required for both, or it's not required. Before we proceed any further, I have a public announcement about my company, farhatlectures.com. Farhat Accounting Lectures is a supplemental educational tool that's gonna help you with your CPA exam preparation as well as your accounting courses. My CPA material is aligned with your CPA review course such as Becker, Roger, Wiley, Gleam, Miles. My accounting courses are aligned with your accounting courses, broken down by chapter and topics. My resources consist of lectures, multiple choice questions, true-false questions, as well as exercises. Go ahead. Start your free trial today. No obligation, no credit card required. Starting with a written engagement letter. Is it required to have a written engagement letter for a compilation and review? And the answer is both. You need a written engagement letter for a compilation, a written engagement letter for a review. Simply put, having a written communication letter is a good practice for, if not for anything, you want to establish an understanding with the client. What is the objective of what we are doing? What are the limitations? So this way you understand what's expected of you and the client understand what is, what are they going to get at the end of the engagement. So engagement letter is necessary. And of course, it's necessary for an audit, but also for compilation and review. What about read the financial statement? Do you think you need to read the financial statements? What do you think? I would say, of course, read the financial statements for obvious errors, something that does not make any sense.  But at the end, go ahead and read them. Make sure everything makes sense. So it's required for both compilation and review. Understand the client industry and the client business. Do you need to understand the client industry and the client business? I would say you need to understand the client industry and the client business for both compilation and reviews. Now I'm going to say both. Okay. However, you will need to know more about the client industry in a review. You need to know both, but in a review, you would need to know more. For a compilation, you would need to know less because you are not providing any limited assurance for a compilation. And when it comes to an audit, definitely you would need to know the most about the client industry and the client business, but both for compilations and review, but to a different degree. Make inquiries of client management. Of course, you're going to be asking questions, whether you are doing a compilation interview. You want to learn a little bit more, because if you want to learn about the business, you're going to ask questions. If you're going to understand the client industry and the client business, one way to do so is to make inquiries. Again, you will do so for compilation. You will do so for review, but for review, you might do more of the inquiries. And of course, you do inquiries of client management when you perform an audit. Design and perform analytical procedures. Well, if you don't understand what analytical procedures are, it's testing numbers, looking at ratios, looking at financial versus non-financial information to make sure things make sense. Do you need to do so for compilations? And the answer is no. You don't need to do so for compilations. Do you need to perform analytical procedures for reviews? And the answer is yes, you do. One of the major things when you perform reviews is inquiries and analytical procedures. So analytical procedures is definitely part of your review. Perform test of control. Do you need to perform any test of control if you are performing compilation or review? And the answer is no for compilation and no for review. Audit, it's a different story, but not compilations and review. You don't need to go this far. Do you need to assess fraud risk for compilation or review? Not at all. Compilation, you're putting the financial statements together. Same thing as review, but review, you're going to provide limited assurance. No need to assess the fraud risk. There's no need for that. Obtain a representation letter from management. Basically what we are saying here is telling management to give me a letter stating in that letter everything that you gave me is indeed what you gave me and nothing else is missing. Do you need to do so for a compilation? Now, compilation is basically all that the compilation is they're giving you data and you're putting the financial statements based on the data. No assurance, nothing at all, just basically they're giving you information and you're giving it back to them in a different format. So there's no reason to have a representation letter. How about a review? For a review, you need to obtain a representation letter. Just they need to spell out exactly what they told you what they presented to you. Prepare documentation to show the work performed. Do you think you need to do so for a compilation or a review? It's always a good practice to have proper documentation, whether you are performing a compilation or performing a review. It doesn't really matter. It's needed for both. How about a sure report of limited, limited assurance? Do you need to do so for a compilation or a review? For a compilation, you are not providing any assurance whatsoever. Not limited, not positive, not negative, nothing. There's no assurance being given. How about a review? Yes, under a review, you are giving a what we called a limited assurance and because you are giving a limited assurance, you need to obtain a representation letter. So knowing the difference between a compilation and reviews, what procedures, what tasks you need to perform is extremely important on the CPA exam. What should you do now? Go to Farhat Lectures and look at additional multiple choice resources. This topic is heavily, heavily tested. Easy points. Good luck. 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Today, I would discuss Plato's theory of mind. Plato's theory of mind provides a transcendental thesis of consciousness and we will try to see how transcendentalism is advocated by Plato. As you know, Plato's theory of mind or protest conception of the soul is a kind of a metaphysical theory of the notion of consciousness. Now, this metaphysical theory as I mentioned to you is something significant because it is initiating a debate on dualism. That is dualism between the forms and the particulars. So, Plato's conception of the soul is developing a dualistic thesis. That is how the forms are independent of the particulars that are there in the world. So, this idea of knowing the particulars or knowing the world is possible in Plato's philosophical schema with the help of the ontology of the forms. The ontology of the forms are presupposed to understand how knowledge is possible. So, Plato's dualism as a metaphysical theory of reality starts with an epistemological discourse that how knowledge about the world is possible and how can we have the objective knowledge about the world. So, in the epistemic discourse of Plato's philosophy, we will find that the metaphysics is delved very significantly and let us go into details of what is the Plato's idea of the soul or what is the Plato's notion of soul as a kind of a transcendental entity. The nature of the soul in Plato's theory shows that soul is the subject of knowledge, it is the source of all our cognitive activities. Whatever we do, whatever we perform and whatever we think all flows from the soul meaning thereby soul is the source of the entire activities. Hence, soul is considered as the principle of movement. In this lecture, when I am trying to discuss Plato's notion of soul, I would particularly refer to Eric Robert's philosophical essay on Plato's view of the soul, published in 1995 in the journal Mind. Robert's essay is a kind of an interpretation to Plato's understanding of the soul, where Robert reconstructs Plato's notion of mind, giving a contemporary interpretation to Plato's thesis. That is how mind is a transcendental phenomenon can be viewed from a Kantian perspective. As you all know, Kant advocated the transcendental philosophy very strongly. Now, going back to this understanding of the notion of soul, soul as a principle of movement can be interpreted as the source of voluntary actions and also the source of our thinking. Thinking also represents some kind of a process or a movement.  Human beings perform voluntary actions and they also represent some kind of a process or a movement. Human beings perform voluntary actions and they also think voluntarily. In fact, Plato would say it is natural to the being that the being thinks. So, the thinking is a kind of a natural activity. It is possible because there exists a spiritual vital force which is a natural activity because the Greeks have defined soul as a vital force. According to them, this vital force can be translated as intelligence, the subject that performs all mental activities. So, from that point of view, soul is the source of thinking. Thinking is a mental activity and the activities that are happening in the mental life flows from this vital force or possible because of the existence of this vital force. Now, when Plato says that Plato talks about motion, when Plato talks about the vital force as the basis of both voluntary movements and cognitions. Therefore, it is important that we talk about modes of actions. Referring to this idea of cognition and how do I cognize things? How do I interpret things? How do I view particular things in the world? So, therefore, the mode of cognition is important or the mode of action is important because it talks about the recognition of cognitive actions or thought is an important activity of the soul. So, what is that the soul is doing? The soul is in fact recognizing the activities. What is that the soul is doing? The soul is in fact recognizing the activities. Activities happening at the realm of the mental, at the realm of the mind. Now, this act of recognition, recognition of what is being done by the soul or what is being perceived or what is given to our sense experience or what is being experienced by the soul or the subject is important. So, this act of recognitions recognizing that what is being let us say represented and whatever is represented is there at the realm of thought or thinking. Thoughts are representations of the world. So, it is the soul which recognizes thoughts which try to understand the content of thought. Hence, recognizing is a kind of a unique activity of the soul. It recognizes something as something. Now, this act of recognition or identification is a kind of an epistemic act. It is not more a psychological act as Plato's epistemology talks about psychology. Plato says it is an epistemic act because epistemology talks about truth and falsity. Epistemology can talk about how the revisions of belief is possible. It talks about how beliefs are revised. Beliefs are not knowledge. In Plato you will see that how beliefs are different from knowledge. So, it is important therefore, that we talk about the world because as a knowing subject, as a conscious subject, the soul understands the things in the world. The soul possesses knowledge about the world. The soul recognizes what is there in the world and what is there in the mind. So, what is the world? The world is the totality of things as Wittgenstein says. So, there are things in the world. So, in Platonic world view, we find that Plato describes the world having particulars. So, there are particulars. There are unique particulars and these particulars are different from the ideas or the forms. So, in Plato's theory of mind or Plato's theory of soul, we will see that there are particulars. Say you have men, horses, things like that. There are n number of particulars. Now, these particulars are known. So, the knowledge of this particulars is possible through the subject who is a knower. So, this dichotomy between the knower and the known, the subject and the object, the particular subject is known. The knower and the known, the subject and the object, the particulars and the forms, how the individual, the subject who is a knower knows the particulars. How does he recognize that yes, this is a pain and this is my pain. The very fact that I recognize this as something, the very fact that I identify the pain and this identity is different from the identity that other particulars are having, that it is different from chess, tables, pencils and scales. So, that identity is something which Plato is concerned with. How we have this identity? How do we have the knowledge of identity? How do we know that yes, something is the case? So, that is how we will talk about Plato's epistemology. Plato's epistemology is concerned about knowledge as an unchanging reality. Knowledge is different from your experiences, your experience of things are changing. So, knowledge is something about an unchanging reality. Knowledge is a seamless flow of particulars in the world. So, there are two ways in which we know things. One, through our sense experiences, I see that there are chairs, I see that people sitting on the chairs, I see that people are listening to the lectures. Now, this is very fact that I have these sense experiences, shows that I know through sense experiences, but is this knowing will give impression of the knowledge which Plato is talking about? Plato is rather more concerned with the intuitive knowledge. Plato does not deny the fact that there are sense experiential knowledge, but is the sense experiential knowledge permanent for Plato visibility is different from intelligibility. So, there are knowledge and knowledge claims which are more intelligible in the sense that which is known through intuition, which is known through our reason. So, reason and intuition plays an important role in cognizing the objects that are there in the world, in cognizing those particulars that Plato is talking about. So, the sense experiential knowledge on the one hand which are temporary and the intelligible knowledge which is derived through the use of intuition or reason is something very significant. Now, what is that knowledge that Plato is concerned with? Plato is obviously concerned with the knowledge of forms. How do we know that it is a human being? How do we know that this is my horse or this is a horse? According to Plato, these particulars are nothing but the copies of the universals. So, Plato gives the primacy to the forms in the sense that forms are ontologically real and the knowledge of particulars is possible because they are the copies of those universals, universal ideas or forms. So, the very fact that Plato is giving primacy to the universals, we need to know how do we comprehend those universals, how do we understand those universals, how do we understand those universals. When a Plato, it is through the soul, we have the knowledge about those forms, the form of human beings or men or the horse or the table or any other particulars you take. For example, we will talk about how the soul is engaged with those forms.  Now, Plato makes a distinction between doxa and epistemic. Doxa talks about opinion which is based on sense experience, whereas the epistemic talks about knowledge, that is the knowledge about the forms. As I have said, forms are eternal, it is not that ontological eternity that Plato is concerned with, whether the knowledge of those forms are eternal. In the sense that knowledge does not change, when talk about the change of knowledge, then we need to talk about how does one go on understanding the knowledge of these forms and the more abstract knowledge is the knowledge about goodness. So, Plato talks about the hierarchy of the knowledge of forms, just beauty, goodness. Goodness is the highest varieties of knowledge. So, in that sense, the knower transcends the knowledge. Each knowledge about the forms, permanent or eternal, this process of transcending one to the other is conceivable, is intelligible, is intelligible, that is knowing the forms by using forms. It is pure conceptual knowledge, whereas knowledge about the sense experiences are not permanent, they are transitory phenomenon. They are transitory phenomena in the sense that we can revise our knowledge based on our sense experiences. Now, this revision is possible. Now, the same color appears in many different ways, the variation of the light or the lightening condition. So, that kind of things we will talk about how knowledge varies from context to context, from place to place. So, knowledge about the particulars are not permanent knowledge, they keep on changing. So, from this we can conclude that there are knowledge which are permanent, which are universal and there are knowledge that is knowledge about the particulars are universal knowledge. As I mentioned that it is the soul which comprehends the knowledge of the forms. So, therefore, it is the soul is akin to ideas or forms. Now, this relationship is defined as a kind of an affinity. So, it is affinity to the forms. Now, look at what the robot writes. The robot says affinity is a condition by virtue of which the soul contemplates and apprehends true being. So, affinity is a kind of an epistemic relation, it is not mere psychological relation, it is an epistemic relation where the soul contemplates on the forms. So, for example, when I understand what beauty is or what goodness is, so my relationship or my engagement with this form and my engagement with a good action performed by a particular individual are two different modes of engagement. So, in that sense, Plato is making a kind of a distinction between the sense experiential knowledge where the subject is judging the action of the individual and my basic understanding of what good is are two different kinds of relationships. Both are in fact conscious because I am experiencing the performance of a good act. I am also understanding or characterizing this action as a good action. So, what is important for Plato is to emphasize that what kind of engagement, what kind of relationship we have with forms is the same with the particulars. For Plato, it is not. So, therefore, Plato says it is a kind of a affinity by virtue of which the soul contemplates. So, what is that affinity, affinity between the soul and the forms? So, that affinity we need to talk about when we say that soul and forms are connected with each other. So, it is this connection Plato is trying to bring out which is different from the connection which one would have with the particulars. So, this connection is different and this connection is different. Now, Plato's theory of forms vis-a-vis the theory of mind or the soul, one finds that Plato is talking about an ontological dualism which has an epistemic concern because Plato's ontology developed from the discourse of epistemology and this ontological dualism dualism between so the knower and the known or the forms and the particulars also has some kind of an ethical considerations. There is an ethical consideration attached to the ontological considerations because when we say that knowledge is universal Plato says truth and good are one because knowledge is universal in the sense that it is a true knowledge. It is different from the opinions. Opinions can be formed by everyone. Opinions are based on our sense experiences but opinions which are produced by understanding things for Plato is insignificant. If opinions have no grounding on our intelligence then opinions are just meaningless. As you know that opinions are meaningless. As you know that Socrates who is having dialogues with Plato and other disciples, other fellow friends is very critical of Sophists who are the decent wise people and Sophists were all the time engaged in giving opinions. So therefore they had no idea about what is goodness, what is justice. For them the judgment about justice keeps changing. So Socrates was very skeptical about that kind of approach where knowledge is not a permanent phenomenon because the definition of justice keeps changing and that is the criticism as a criterion or platonic criticism against relativism or against the kind of approach which Sophists used to have. So men who intends to know, who desires to know truth. This desire is a kind of a natural desire. Men is a secure of truth. So so the desire to know is something very basic, something very fundamental to human life.  In fact Plato is talking about this ethical aspect of human life. He is emphasizing this ethical aspect of human life that how the virtue of being good and the virtue of knowing are interrelated and knowledge is identical with virtue. Virtue is knowledge. Socrates famous statement. Virtue is knowledge. Now this is described in his famous parable that parable of cave. I am sure you all must be aware of famous parable where Plato tries to show how opinions are different from knowledge. Plato also shows the virtue of knowing. We would discuss about this parable in the next class, but let me summarize what I was trying to tell you about the nature of soul. There are two things I am trying to suggest here. One that the understanding of the nature of soul is an epistemic activities or this epistemic activity shows that there is an ontological dualism present in Plato. The dualism between the dualism between the form and the particulars. Now this dualism is created because of the mode in which the soul is engaged with the forms and the soul is engaged with the particulars. There are two different kinds of engagement. Forms are independent of particulars. Soul is independent of particulars because soul is not identical with particulars, but soul is in affinity with the forms. It is with this kind of affinity we can talk about how one relates the forms with the particulars or how does one recognize the basic particulars. We will discuss in detail about it in the next class with reference to Plato's famous parable that parable of cave. We will try to show that how ethics ontology and epistemology are interrelated.