Roma wines present suspense. Roma wines, made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. Salute. Your health, senor. Roma wines toast the world. The wine for your table is Roma wine, made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. This is the man in black here for the Roma wine company of Fresno, California to introduce this weekly half hour of suspense. Tonight from Hollywood, Roma wines bring you a star's Dame May Whitty and Miss Maureen O'Sullivan. And so with the performances of these two distinguished leading ladies in the play called The Black Shore, we again hope to keep you in suspense. Listen to me, please. Listen carefully and tell me if I'm right. I say I'm about to be murdered. I'm not certain. No one's even threatened me. But I say I am going to be murdered. This is just a plain, ordinary-looking kitchen that I'm sitting in. But for me, I know it is a death house. If it were only three days ago and I could live them all over again, or if it only were, the fair was being held in town and everyone was gay. And Robert was late as usual, but I didn't care. Not waiting for Rob again, are you? Have you ever seen me when I haven't seen you? And him a lawyer for the watch factory. Somebody ought to teach him how to tell time. Hey, how about a dance, Sue? One short one before that boyfriend of yours comes round to steal you away. Oh, thanks, George, but I'd rather wait. If he's not quick about it, he'll find nothing left to steal except the bench. All right, but let me know if you're interested in a change of habit. I've been watching you sitting there and I wondered whom you were waiting for. Oh, just a friend. I see. I don't wish to seem inquisitive. Please don't misunderstand. It's only that your face struck me as being unusually bright and alive, as well as being uncommon liberty. Thank you. Now you see, I have an eye for faces. My son was a sculptor. He worked almost entirely with heads and my job was choosing them. It's all very foolish. I'll admit, more so since he departed some time ago. Oh, I am sorry. Thank you. That's precisely why I was watching you. Of course I know nothing about you any more than you do of me. But by the way, what's your name? Susan Appleby. Mine is Elizabeth Masters. How do you do? I live just the other side of town. Let me come to the point, Susan.  I'm not a young woman and I'm lonely. I have been ever since I lost my son. I need a companion, someone who can stay with me and help me do. And you resemble closely my very first companion. My best remembered one. Oh, but I... I'll pay you well, 30 pounds a month. Your chief occupation will be to brew me some tea and talk to me. Are you interested? Well, I have been seeking that sort of a position, but I... Splendid! You need look no longer. But you know nothing about me.  I'll return here at the same time tomorrow evening. If you do want the position, please be here. And believe me, I hope you are here. Good night, Susan. Good night. See you tomorrow at eight. All right. I'll be here. What do you mean you'll be here? Oh, Rob, you frighten me. Well, you were whistling our tunes, so I thought you were expecting me. What do you think you're doing making this strange woman? Believe me, she is a strange woman. Mrs. Masters? Oh, no, she's nice. And Rob, she offered me a position. I'm doing what? As a companion. Just what I wanted and a 30 pounds a month, darling. No small sum, that. Too bad you can't manage it. But I'm thinking seriously of it, Bob. Well, stop that. I don't want you ever to have one serious thought about anything. Now, Rob, I'm going to take it. What do you know about the old hand? Nothing yet. Sue, did you look at the way she dressed? Black from shoes to shawl. Why, the shawl's so large and black, you hardly know she had a face. She seemed charming. Oh, she might well be a bit. And that's a bad myself. And I want you for a companion, too. Let's push the wedding date ahead, darling. Make it any time you would. Oh, now we've gone through this so many times and you know it can't be done. But with the way you're coming along and with 30 pounds a month additional, why, Rob, in no time at all we'll have all we need.  Oh, you know I'm right. How many evenings off would she allow you? We didn't get that far. Well, where's the place at, then? Isn't that strange? She left so quickly I never had a chance to ask. Call it off, Sue. I... Well, why, Rob? Well, I don't like it. You know nothing about her, not even what she lives. Well, I told her I hardly spoke to her. Tomorrow I'll know everything. All right, my darling, you win. Oh. But let me hear from you as soon as you set me up. Well, of course I will. Why, everything's going to be fine. I'm silly, sure it will. Hello, darling. Hello, Rob. Everything will be fine. For us. Nightfall suspense. Roma wines are bringing you a star's Dame May Whitty and Maureen O'Sullivan, whom you've heard in the prologue to the black shawl by R. R. Lewis. Tonight's study in suspense. Far from the scene we have just left, far to the south across the equator is another scene I ask you to visit with me. It is just before the dinner hour on the beautiful roof terrace café of the Hotel Metropolitano of Gaiacchil, Ecuador. We are finishing our appetizers, an excellent sherry, and lifting your glass, you remark to our host that you envy him such wine. He laughs. You are very kind, he says, but it is your own California you must praise for this splendid wine, for you see it is Roma California sherry. Yes, in many far countries, where discerning tastes have found Roma wines, it is a luxury imported and treasured. For Roma wines are in every sense fine wines from the rich vineyard country of California. Products of age-old winemaking skill aided by modern quality controls and tests. And here in the United States, Roma wines cost mere pennies a glassful, because here there is no import duty, no overseas shipping cost. Such enjoyable flavor and constant quality, such low cost, such high wine values, have made Roma by far America's largest selling wines, enjoyed by millions, with meals when entertaining any time. To enjoy these delights yourself, ask for R-O-M-A, Roma wine, made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. And now it is with pleasure that we bring back to our sound stage Maureen O'Sullivan as Susan and Dame May Whitty as Mrs. Masters in the black shawl, a tale well calculated to keep you in, and so I was there waiting as Mrs. Masters had instructed me the following night. We got into her car and she drove us off. It only seemed a mile or two from town, but we twisted and turned so many times that in the dark I became completely confused as to my whereabouts. Then finally we stopped. There it is, straight ahead down the path. Miss Appleby, welcome to Masters Hall. Miss Appleby, won't you join me in a cup of tea? Oh, thank you, Mrs. Masters. I'd be very grateful if I might. I love my room. Good. Sit down over there opposite me, won't you? I certainly will. The fires is inviting as the tea. I've always had one burning whenever I'm home. I get cold so easily. That's why I always wear this shawl around me. Sugar? Thank you. No lemon or milk, thanks. Now, Susan, tell me about yourself. All you've done, all you see in the future for you. Oh, there's very little to tell. I've always lived here in town. I expect I always shall remain here. After you're married, you mean? I presume you have such intentions. I expect so. It is the only thing that matters, isn't it? Having someone to care for? Yes. I know. Before my son left me, I desired nothing. The scope of his talent was the world we lived in and beautiful it was. I suppose love is like talent and that respect. It too creates a smaller world within the large one we inhabit and makes you want it never to disappear. Did his talents receive recognition? To a limited degree. Everyone saw in his work the promise of a truly great sculptor. The promise never bore fruit because he hadn't enough time. Winter came far too early in his life. How old was he? I lost him before he was 21. Oh, Mrs. Masters, that's terrible. So great a waste. That's it. You realise it too. The waste. To lose a useless thing, that can be forgiven. Or if the last can't be helped, there's nothing we can say. But cast away genius. To kill it before it's reached its full expression that no one can forgive. No one can forget. Oh, now, now, please, Mrs. Masters, we have no control over such matters. Their gods will. Of course. Thank you, dear. You're very sweet. I wish you more success in the world of your love. I'm sure you'll have more. That's kind of you. Another good man ruined. I should be insulted. Ruined by a woman. That's it. Smile, laugh. Life can be so short.  I slept well that first night and did not awaken until almost nine. Then I realised how late it was. I dressed quickly and ran downstairs. Mrs. Masters had left a note on the kitchen table telling me she'd gone shopping. But I was to take my breakfast and then wait for her. I looked around to see if I might do something, but everything was in perfect order. I looked for a phone, thinking I'd call Rob. But I could find none in the kitchen or the centre hall. Finally, I thought I'd take a look at the outside, get a bit of fresh air. I went to the front door and tried it. It was locked. I turned the bolt and pulled. The door was still locked. I couldn't understand. Then suddenly I realised the door was locked from the outside. I ran to the kitchen, not afraid, but surprised. Then something struck me that I hadn't noticed before. All the kitchen windows were barred. I made a quick dash for the kitchen door. Have a good night's rest. Yes, I did. Thank you. Fine. But you're trembling. Is there a chill in the house? You really should stay away from the doors. I know, but I wanted a breather there. The front door was locked. Was it? I must have done it automatically. You see, I've lived alone for so long and it's natural for a person who lives alone to lock all doors behind them when they go out. Why are the windows barred? That goes back to the time my son did his work here. We had so much of it lying carelessly about all over the house. So much of value. Anyone might easily have climbed all the windows. Of course. It's silly of me. For a moment, though, I felt so much like a prisoner behind those bars. An unusual experience for you, I take it. A very unusual one. Now you're smiling again. That's fine. My boy always liked to see a smile on a woman's face. Without when he always said they reminded him of death. Kiss. Death. There, I wrote to Rob. Please come to see me now, Rob, if you can. Everything's all right. Don't worry about me, but come to me. It's unbelievable, but I must tell you that I still don't know the address here. I cannot tell you how to find it. But someone must know Mrs. Masters and can tell you where she lives. I want to send this off to you now, so I'll close. I can't tell you, darling, how great is my need to see you and my love for you soon. Mrs. Masters. Well, yes, Susan, what is it? Where can I post a letter? Let me have whatever you want sent, and I'll drop it in the box when I go shopping tomorrow. Oh, I don't want to bother you. I'll take it down myself. No bother at all. There's no where else to post a letter. And I pass the box every day. Oh, but I'd much rather... It's settled. Let me have it. It'll be sent early tomorrow. Oh, of course. Here you are. Thank you. And, Susan, I dropped my shawl. Would you mind? Oh, not at all. X, because it isn't it. Will you join me in a cup of tea? Oh, thank you. Mrs. Masters, this morning I said I was silly for feeling like a prisoner in your home, but the feeling is still there. What have I done? I said that might create any such impression. That's not the question I'm trying to answer. I just feel it. The answer I don't know is what do you want with me? What was that? Wait right here. I'll be down shortly. Where are you going? Upstairs. Would you wait down here?  No. No, I won't stay down here. I'm frightened. I'm coming up too. It hasn't broken at all. No, there's not a scratch on it. Dear, dear, please don't. Susan, I told you to stay downstairs. What'd you come up for? All right. You know now. Mrs. Appleby, this is John Masters, my son. That night at dinner there were three of us. I couldn't bear to look at him. The twisted face, the dull, glazed eyes, whimpering, grunting, unable even to speak a single intelligible word. And when I saw the two together, she, with the horrible black shawl draped around her, I knew for certain that in her own way she was as mad as her son. And I knew more surely than ever how great was my own danger. Late that night I packed my bag silently and swiftly. Then I waited. It was well past midnight before I dared open my door and look out. The house was completely dark, upstairs and down. I felt my way along and started down the stairs. I reached the bottom and went right to the front door first. Susan! Susan, where are you going? You couldn't possibly know your way about once outside the house. You'd surely have lost your way. Wouldn't she, John? Oh, stop it! Stop it! All right. John, leave us now. John, dear, did you hear me? And, Miss Masters, you have no right to keep me here if I don't wish to stay. Well, when I accepted this position, I was of the opinion that you lived alone. Conditions have changed and now I wish to leave. Please, Susan, believe me, I don't blame you a bit, but think of me just for a single moment. Why do you think I asked you here? Do you believe it's so easy for me to chain to this lost thing? No one to talk to day or night. I needed someone. I need you now. But you told me he was dead. I never told you that. Only that he'd left me. And so he has. No, no, I won't stay. I'd go mad if I do. Very well, dear. It's no use trying to argue with you. But stay at least until tomorrow. You could never find your way to Nighton. If you stay over, it'll give me a chance to find someone in town. I'd rather go now, if you don't mind. Tomorrow night, just until then. Even if I've no one, well, you can leave after dinner tomorrow. I'll pay you two weeks' wages if you do. Please, you can't refuse me that. Well, I... Thank you. Thank you, dear Susan. I shouldn't have stayed. I knew that from the moment I agreed. I slept badly, waking from time to time, certain that I heard odd noises from the next room. Low chuckles, whispered, voiceless mutterings. But the night passed finally, and today was uneventful. When Mrs. Masters returned from shopping in the village, she informed me that my successor would arrive tomorrow morning. And I was therefore free to leave immediately after dinner. She spent the rest of today preparing the evening meal. It was as though it were a special holiday, so great for the pain she took. The dinner turned out to be wonderful, and Mrs. Masters was extremely gracious. Dear Susan, we drink to you, my dear, dear Susan, to your future, to your man, to your future with your man. Oh, thank you. And may you remember this evening all the rest of your days. You're very nice. All the rest of your days. Thank you. Not at all, not at all, my dear.  I'm really sorry that I must hurt you by leaving you this way. You hurt me? Why, my dear, if anyone has been hurt, surely it's you. We frightened you so, made you so miserable. You're the hurt one, Susan, dear. Not I. Anything I've felt or said has forgotten now. Always when I think of you, I shall remember this evening. I'm certain of it. And so you may remember better, my dear. Let me imprint the occasion still more clearly upon your mind. Do you know what happening it is we celebrate? I expected it was my leaving. So it is. But did it seem likely that you alone would cause so much excitement in our home? Well, I... Miss Appleby, this is the third anniversary of the most important event in the history of Masters Hall. We honor you by asking you to partake of our joy. And I thank you for it. No need of that. You need only listen and be silent. Three years ago, my son was a genius. Today, he is my son. Three years ago, the world's doors stood wide before us. Today, all the shoulders on earth couldn't break it down.  She slammed it as she left. My son loved her dearly. My first sweet companion. I warned him. I told him that no woman would put up with his temperament. He wouldn't listen. He loved her madly. Madly. The perfect word for it. And for that, she slammed the door on him. Slammed it in his face, his heart, his head. That night, he lost the power of his mind. Ever since we've waited in vain for its return. But we've honored the occasion. Don't think we've forgotten age of her. Two years ago this evening on the first anniversary, Sally Thwaite left us. We told her the story. She was overwhelmed. She couldn't bear to stay and left quite suddenly. Last year, Catherine it was, Kitty. Can't recall her last name at the moment. She wanted to leave us too. How could we diffuse? And now, tonight, Susan Appleby. Tonight, Susan, you are leaving us. Where are you going, Susan? To the kitchen. Excuse me, please. Today I'm going to be murdered. I can't know for sure. But the way they laugh, the way they look, the way she sits there fingering that ugly, torn, black shawl. The shawl that looks like death. What can I think? What can I do? Susan, there's one thing more. This shawl, so beautiful, so exquisitely wrought. You must surely have noticed that I wear it all the time. It belonged to her, a gift from my son. In her haste it slipped from her shoulders as she left. So this is all that remains of that lovely, wonderful creature. I should like you to wear it, if only for a moment. You're so much like her. And her memory is John's greatest comfort. Oh, no. No, don't come near me. Don't touch me. Please, just around your shoulders. I won't wear it. Stay away from me. Please don't. Oh, don't. Who would be coming here now? John, watch her closely. I look through the window. Surely you've seen the light in the kitchen. I'll just send him away. I'll only be a moment. Watch her, John, if she shouts for him.  So you'd better be still, Susan. Yes?  I beg your pardon. I'm looking for Miss Susan Appleby. You won't find her here. I'm sorry. Are you certain of that? Yes, I recognize that shawl. It was worn by the woman Miss Appleby when to work for a night before last. Surely this is not the only black shawl in the world. Nor am I the only woman who wears one. I've been inquiring in the village and all the shopkeepers remembered you as the woman who always does. So I followed you here this morning. Then I returned to the village and now I'm back again. Well, you can return right to the village. If you must know, Miss Susan Appleby was here. But she was entirely unsatisfied. Yes, I said that. It's probably because I'm at home now. Well, all right. If she's gone home, I'll see her there. I'm so sorry for your trouble. Not at all. Thank you. Good day. Good day. Susan. Susan, was that you whistling a moment ago? I thought I told you to be still. I was nervous. It's a habit of mine. A very bad one, of which you've many. Among them, no doubt, is that of driving men mad. That one just now. The love in his eyes for you. I've seen that before. In other eyes. I'm so terribly sorry he's gone away. Perhaps you'll return another time. Stay away from me. Here now. The shawl's around me. Drive tighter, John. No, please! Let me go! Let me go! You heard her. Let her go. Let him! Yes, sir. Drive quickly, John. Quickly! Of course. This morning I went down to the local constabulary. And persuaded Adams here to join me. I was interested, ma'am, because there had been two disappearances in as many years. And just about this time, this sounded like a third. It almost ended like the others, too. Almost, but... Absolutely. Let's have a hand here. We'll break it down. All right, Joe. Watch out. Once we're in, she's mad and may try anything. Let's go now. One, two, three! Chandelier, let's cut her down quickly. It's too late. Her neck's gone. Rob. The shawl. The black shawl. Aimee Whitty and Moreno Sullivan. Tonight's tale of suspense. Suspense is produced and directed by William Spear. To every woman listening tonight, I want to say a special word about making every dinner or supper you serve taste better. I want to urge you to start serving Roma wine with your meals. It's simple. The cost is very, very little. And it works magic in making food more enjoyable. You can serve Roma wine with any meal or any time in any kind of glass you wish. Serve it chilled. Try different kinds of Roma wine until you find those you enjoy most of all. Try hearty, red Roma California burgundy or the delicately delicious Roma California sautern. The cost is mere pennies a glass, but you'll find even a pickup supper tastes like a banquet. Get Roma wines today. If your dealer is temporarily out of them, please try again soon. Just ask for R-O-M-A. Roma wines. America's largest selling wines. Made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. Aimee Whitty appeared through the courtesy of Metro Golden Mayor and is currently being seen in the White Cliffs of Dover. Next Thursday, same time, Donald Crisp and John Loder will be our stars in another unusual study in mystery, suspicion, and dangerous adventure. At that time, you will hear the only ghost story ever to have been staged by... Suspense! Presented by Roma wines. R-O-M-A. Made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. This is CBS, the Columbia Broadcasting System.


So, first of all, thanks for being here today. I appreciate everybody coming. You know, Cinco de Mayo weekend is upon us. And traditionally what we see as part of the weekend's activities is the celebration up on Federal Boulevard. Many go up there to cruise up and down in their vehicles. And we expect to see that this year. Probably most likely for all three days of the weekend, Friday, Saturday, Sunday nights. And it's important that the residents up there, especially along that federal, south federal corridor, know that there's likely to be heavy traffic congestion. Usually we see that congestion start somewhere around 4 or 5 p.m. in the afternoon, continue until around 11 o'clock at night. We always staff for that. And this year will be no exception. We'll have plenty of officers. Numerous officers assigned specifically up to Federal Boulevard. Our goals are very simple. We want to maximize safety. We want to control and make sure we minimize the traffic congestion that happens up on Federal. And we also want to control the noise and the disruption that happens in the neighborhoods along the Federal Boulevard corridor as well. We have what we like to call a three phase plan. The first phase of that plan typically is just letting the normal traffic flow go. And we'll allow that to happen as long as it doesn't get too congested and doesn't have an impact on the neighborhood. If it gets to the point with congestion that it's starting to impact the neighborhoods, cars are starting to peel off the Federal Boulevard and drive up and down the neighborhood streets, then we'll start to block off those streets. That's phase two. Phase three is a full diversion. If traffic gets so congested that it's backed up what we would deem too far, we may have some public safety issues that we may be concerned about, we will conduct a full diversion of that traffic up out of Federal Boulevard. And we had to do that once last year and for the past three years we've only had to do that once. But that's something that we have a plan in place for as well this year. The things that we look for up and down Federal, especially with the people driving their cars and cruising, is the safety violations, the speeding, the racing. Those types of things, we're going to be very, very strict as far as enforcement goes this year. A message we have is very simple. Come on out and have fun, but do it in a safe way. What about drinking, driving in heroin? Yeah, those are things that we'll be looking at as well. And we typically have a rest for those types of violations and infractions in the past. And you want people to have fun, but you want to do it in line. People that step out of line, racing, and squealing tires, that kind of stuff, that will draw attention to you than you guys know exactly, right? Exactly. Again, we're just trying to make sure that there's a safe environment for everybody to come out and celebrate it. How has it changed over the years? You know, I would say that it hasn't changed much. You know, several years ago, I think we were impacted in a larger way with Federal, you know, that cruising and that activity extending into Northwest Denver. You know, if I would say that there's been any change, I think it's, you know, been really isolated to the South Federal corridor. Why do you think that area becomes so hot? You know, to answer that, I think you'd have to go back years previous, you know, when that activity started. And it started long before certainly my tenure out there. But that type of activity has been occurring out there for a long time. I think it's, you know, a way to, you know, to go out and celebrate with other people, be seen, be with friends, all those types of things. Are there other areas of town where you guys have special plans in place like Civic Center or Downtown? Yeah, Civic Center Park would be another location. They have an event down at that park every year. I'm not sure. Does anybody know? Is that all three days? Two days? I don't have the hours on that. Okay.  You know, there, yes, in a way because obviously when you have large groups of people in an event like that, then it's going to require more officers. So there's going to be officers assigned to that event, both on an off-duty basis and probably a little bit with our on-duty resources if that should be needed. When you're talking about noise being a factor, what do you mean by that? What is the noise? You know, it's the screeching of tires, the revving of engines, that sort of thing. And so it's that. And plus just traffic in general. You know, if you get a lot of traffic that's moving in a particular area and if that goes off into the neighborhoods, just the traffic alone will create extra noise. And in terms of the last couple of years, in terms of any arrests you had to make, is it a handful? Is it more than a handful generally? I'll give you an example for last year. We made probably just a little bit over 300 citations for traffic violations. I think along with that there were 40 arrests for numerous things, you know, assaults that may have happened, criminal mischief activities, DUIs, that sort of thing. Alluding of police officers, which does occur at some points as well. 300 citations, 40 arrests. Yes. What else in town compares to that? That seems like a lot. It seems like a big event. It is. It's over a three-day period though. You have to keep that in mind. And we issue a lot of warnings, you know, on the lesser infractions. Again, those violations that we are really going to pay attention to really be strict on are the speed violations, you know, running through red lights, running through stop signs, those types of things, people that are hanging out windows of cars while it's moving. Those things that really create a public safety issue and dangers for not only the people that may occupy that car, but for other people that are up there as well. People that are not involved in the activities, do you suggest they avoid the area? No. Well, I think it is. One thing to keep in mind is that if you're trying to get through on Federal Boulevard during this weekend and during those times, it's the thing that people know is it's going to take a little bit longer to get through, to get to where you're going. How many officers do you have over a courseful weekend doing that? Is it an overtime thing or are you doing shifts? No, they're on due resources.  So, typically, we will have 100-plus officers working up there assigned specifically to Federal Boulevard during any given day. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.


This is Think Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. Welcome back to Talk Story with John Wahey, aloha everyone. This is something very unusual in our format, and that is that it is actually part two. Part two of our last session where we were able to spend some time with Jeffrey Portnoy, who is one of, oh no, I think he's the Dean of Hawaii First Amendment Lawyers and Experts, and actually a professor at the University of Hawaii Law School teaching constitutional law. So, Jeffrey, since you came once, I wasn't going to let you go. We've got a great subject that we've been talking about, the First Amendment, so welcome back. The Dean just means I'm old, and the second show means I'm cheap. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. For you, John. But welcome back, Jeff. You know, one of the things that we were starting to get into at the last show was this idea of what constitutes government action. I mean, the way I understand the First Amendment, as you pointed out in our discussion, it's really a prohibition against government stopping someone from expressing their point of view. That's true. That's pretty clear. That's true. So what would constitute the government action? Well, the simplest answer is a statute, an ordinance. An ordinance saying that you can't do something. Right. Right.  And then you get into the debate over what speech versus conduct, and you can have symbolic speech. So, but to answer your initial question, government has to do something that an individual or a group believes inhibits their right to speak either verbally or symbolically. Well, you know, the, when we use the word government, that's a very broad. It is. Schools, for example. Yeah, exactly. Schools are included. You talked about the case of the young man who wore the ombet. Sure. So schools are included government. The simplest answer, of course, is state government, city government. Those are the ones that people, federal government, those are the ones people mostly think about, but any kind of institutional political activity that is essentially considered governmental action, and it extends to public schools, public universities. Anything that's, and so it would have been okay in terms of for that young man, it would have been okay for the school if they were private to prohibit, I believe so. I mean, this whole NFL thing, for example, if the NFL were to pass a rule that said you had to stand for the national anthem, people like to argue while you're infringing upon my free speech, but it has nothing to do with private interaction. Absolutely. So if you receive any federal funds at all, courts have said that could be government action. So that's the connection. Tom Santilla, if I remember the word correctly. You can even be a non-profit, for example, and if you're receiving funds from the government, you could be considered to be government for purposes of speech. What about someone who is not receiving funds directly from the government, but who has a tax exemption like a non-profit? Is that issue more problematic? Has that issue been litigated? Yeah, sure. It gets litigated when the government attempts to stifle certain speech or to put restrictions on governmental funding abortion. Absolutely. It's a perfect example. And there have been lots of cases in which states or municipalities have tried to restrict picketing in front of an abortion doctor's office, et cetera, and they have found many times that when it's a non-profit or whatever that there's governmental action involved. Because there's some connection to government. So the purely private interaction is not protected by the Constitution? Well, okay, so since we talked about the NFL, there was some interesting new developments in this otherwise saga in this past Sunday where the Vice President himself goes through a game and decides to, in a sense, I think, exercise his symbolic speech. Now clearly as an individual, he ought to be able to do anything he wants, right? So he goes there and he people kneel and he doesn't like it, so he walks out. But that's all like pre-planned, apparently. Apparently. All right, so. There was a tweet from the President that's saying I told him to do it. I mean, sometimes we don't know whether the President actually did that. But in terms of a legal, that's pretty good framework. That's pretty good evidence that it was pre-planned. So he goes there, he does this, he walks out. Now, that costs the taxpayers money, first of all. So that's kind of a connection or is it? I think that would be a hard connection to make. But you look at the cases, the free speech cases, religion cases, so much of it depends on the politics of the judges and the way they want to define very precise rules. You can find courts, as you know, disagreeing. Absolutely. Circuit Court with the Supreme Court, R-I-C-A with our Supreme Court. But generally government is government and it would extend to groups or organizations that directly receive federal funding in many cases. See, what's troubling to me on what is government question, and when we get to the President and the Vice President, is that they are one branch of government. And so how do you separate somebody's persona from somebody's position in that situation? Because on one hand you have people like taking the kneeling down as a way of advancing an issue. And this morning, I'm getting this stuff, by the way, by watching the newscasters and talking heads in the morning. But now I hear the argument being raised that on one hand people are trying to express something about an issue. On the other, you really have government persona using government money to stifle the expression. Well, and that's part of it. I mean, obviously if the government is making decisions on what it's going to fund and who it's going to fund and an argument can be made that they're selectively encouraging certain speech or deterring certain speech, you can bring a claim. See, that was the second part of it. I'm not saying you'd succeed, but you can certainly bring a claim and you might succeed depending upon the facts. The government can't favor one type of speech over another. Well, it has to be neutral, although, and this gets technical, depending upon the speech there are different levels of judicial review. A strict scrutiny means the government has to have an overwhelming reason, no other alternative. Intermediate scrutiny is kind of like, well, they need to come up with a pretty good reason. And then you have the basic, okay, the government's making an argument as to why they need to do X, Y, or Z. And it depends on the type of speech. Political scrutiny, for example, you have to have strict scrutiny. You get down to other levels of speech, it becomes intermediate scrutiny. And the other thing government has and can do, John, is what we call time, place, and manner. They can restrict speech from a certain place if they allow it somewhere else. So for example, you try to put a billboard advertising a Korean bar within 50 feet of an elementary school and the city says, you can't do that. Try to probably be upheld so long as you can put that billboard a thousand feet away, which still subjects people without having access to it. So time, place, and manner. Or you can restrict when you can march in a particular area if you can show that there's some business reason why that particular timeframe may not be appropriate. But you can't tell people you can march between midnight and 2 a.m. when no one is there. Right. Right. So you can have place and manner restrictions, but they have to be non-prejudicial. They can't favor one group or one type of speech over another. See, the question, because I heard this is leading up to something, I hope. Yeah, well, it's leading up to the fact that, well, first of all, this is really interesting stuff. So I hope that people out there begin to understand the issue. But it's leading up to a very interesting argument I heard, actually on, I think it was Fox News. No, you don't watch Fox. Yeah, I sometimes do. Did you ever hear about that? It's the freedom of speech thing. Oh, God. Well, it's good to get different views. But it's interesting, because there was a presentation saying, and the gentleman actually meant it, and I was thinking to myself, wow, you know, and what he said was the First Amendment says that the Congress cannot make any law. It does say that. It doesn't say that the President can't do something. I mean, that's the literal language of it, but I think the courts have made it pretty clear. Administrative agencies are subject to the same restrictions as Congress. Yeah, I would think so, wouldn't you?  And then when they make a regulation, you couldn't. So it's pretty well been, I think, decided that not only Congress, I mean, how about state government? Well, yeah. Well, it's city government. But what's interesting, I noticed that in the Hawaii amendment, it doesn't do that. Which you're responsible for in part, thank you very much. It doesn't do that. And actually, what the Hawaii amendment says, just no law can do that. You guys found the right to privacy. Absolutely. No one else has any of that constitution. It took the United States Supreme Court to make up the right to privacy. To make it up. If you guys made sure it's in the Hawaii Constitution, of course, nobody ever said what it means. Well, let's in there. Let's take a look at that. You know, this is the Hawaii state constitution. Well, I heard it in a provision, believe me. Yeah. And this is the, what are the different, one obvious difference is that the Federal First Amendment starts up with Congress can make no law. You have the Hawaii Constitution just said flat out no law. And I'm assuming that means no regulation, no anything that restricts. And so it seems like the Hawaii provision is more, it's broader. It's a little bit broader. I mean, the Hawaii section for freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly and petition, very similar to the First Amendment. Very similar. But there have been instances where, or have there been instances where the Hawaii court may have gone farther in the protection of the First Amendment than the United States. You argue that. I argue that all the time. If I think the Hawaii Constitution is going to provide greater rights to my clients than the Federal Constitution, and many other people do that as well. And not just this provision, the privacy provision is one that I actually think they face it on the opposite side. So you know, I mean, the United States Supreme Court has made it clear that states have the absolute right to increase the rights available to its citizens. They don't have the rights to abridge any rights that are given under the Federal Constitution. Right. And the Federal Bill of Rights. But they can expand it. And the 1978 Constitutional Convention in Hawaii, that is right. We're going to take a short break right now. But when we come back, I want to discuss that tension between the right to privacy and freedom of expression. You got it. All right. We'll be right back. This is Stink Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. My friend, mother, what big eyes you have. She's fine. All the better to see you with my dear. What are you doing? Okay. Cool. I just heard from birth accelerates the baby's brain development. And you're doing that now? Oh, yeah. Yeah. This is the starting line. Push. And this is over. You're dead. Read aloud 15 minutes, every child, every parent, every day. I just walked by and I said, what's happening, guys? And they told me they were making music. So I did. Welcome back to Talk Story with John Leahy. Our special guests, Jeffrey Hortenoy, the number one First Amendment attorney in the state of Hawaii. And by the way, folks, if you want to call in and have any questions, this is your time to ask the premier lawyer here something that you might have to pay for otherwise. And so our phone number is<PHONE_NUMBER>. Give us a call. Jeffrey, here we are. Just before the break, you got into a very important subject, and that's the right to privacy versus freedom of speech. And I know that comes up in government all the time. I mean, the usual place where it was found was regarding employee salaries, people who work for state government.  Is that a private matter or is that a legitimate... Well, if you ask me, it's not private. But unfortunately, if you believe in access to government and access to government records, you bemoan the fact that you can. That privacy amendment in the Hawaii state constitution. Because as I said, quite frankly, John, it was enacted, but it wasn't enacted with a lot of thought as to what it meant. And I think it's taken on a greater meaning for those people who want to restrict, and I'm talking about people in government, want to restrict the citizens' rights to know what's going on of access. Right. And so university salaries, which should be a non-issue in many places, becomes a very litigious issue in Hawaii because the government officials argued that... Who owns the right of privacy? I mean, who has to... The individual. The individual, right? So personnel information or personal information, sometimes they go together, is very difficult to get in Hawaii. Is it the individual that's stopping you from getting that? I don't even know. The government just does it for them. Right. I mean, does the government have a right to do that without them expressing it?  And whether it's police department and trying to get access to certain police disciplinary records or salaries, as you mentioned, we run into lots of opposition. Give credit where credit is due. And again, you were responsible for Chapter 92, which does say in the preamble that the citizens have a right to know what their government is doing. Absolutely. But then unfortunately, the legislature is tinkered with it and put in a whole bunch of exceptions and exemptions. And so it's not toothless, but they've taken a lot of the power out of what was initially supposed to be one of the most far-reaching access state statutes in the United States because there is no constitutional right of access, either in the Hawaii Constitution or in the U.S. Constitution. So it's a creature of statute and then judicial interpretation. You know, the other side of the right to privacy was that it would be protecting somebody from, you know, their... Yeah, so securing a number of medical information, I don't think that's...  I think that's true, too.  And how much taxpayers, how much money we're paying as taxpayers for certain governmental employees and functions to me is an absolute right. I believe that, too. I know, I absolutely believe that if, you know, you should be able to follow the money, follow the money. Wherever government spends its money, citizens ought to be able to follow the money. No, I paid dearly for that. Right after we passed the law, every request that came in. Sure. But there ought to be a... So there is this right of privacy that's a challenge to the First Amendment. No, you put into place and then you funded the Office of Information Practice. It was extraordinarily active early on. Now it's basically toothless. It's defunct. Really? I mean, not literally, but practically. It's got almost no employees. It's been defunded. It's been moved from one department to another. And frankly, I think, and not under the just recent governor, it's just been a gradual erosion of access. And not just the state. The counties aren't exactly champions. I was amused to read last week that all the county councils have passed resolutions complaining that the state doesn't open up its legislative discussions.  Because the state, you know, exempted itself. I know. The state exempted itself from the open meetings. Well, I mean, that to me is mind boggling. And I read Scott Psyche says, well, you know, we're very controversial. It's very... Not controversial, but what we do is very difficult and we can't be subject to all these rules. Yet the county councils will make you responsible to try to have open meetings and give notice. But as far as the legislature, we can do things in secret because we're working on important stuff. Yes. And there is that inequality is done completely in secret. Yeah. Well, and I don't understand that. We're getting off the topic, but... I don't understand that at all. I mean, and freedom of speech, by the way, in my opinion, includes the idea that people are to be able to... You're supposed to be able to petition the governor. Yeah. And you're supposed to be able to get information. Otherwise, we'll go to speech. That's not according to the majority leader of the state Senate. Well... Anyway, you know, okay, who... Well, how? I'm sorry. But privacy apparently is individual right and speeches as well. But the United States Supreme Court came out with a very interesting decision about a year or two ago where it gave the right of freedom of expression to a corporation. Well, what it did, what the majority did was said that a corporation is a person. That's the bottom line. A corporation is a person. Therefore, ergo, a person has a right of free speech. Therefore, the corporation has a right of free speech. And just like citizens, like you and I, are allowed to contribute to certain political campaigns and organizations, corporations have the same right. Right. And restrictions on corporations that are not placed upon individual people is unconstitutional. And not... Not citizens united. Well, and prior to Citizens United, where this right was given to corporations as persons, there was some earlier Supreme Court decisions that actually limited the ability of government to restrict the amount of support that I could give to candidates and to individuals. That's true. And to certain types of political organizations. You know, which is really where the money is now. Right. It's not being sent to the Democratic or Republican National Committee. It's in all of these organizations that you don't even know who's behind them. And who's funding it. Who's funding it.   You know, I believe in free speech, but I don't believe in Citizens United. And I think if you go back and look at some of the Supreme Court cases in which they found in other contexts, corporations are not citizens. Yes. They've decided to ignore that or change their view with a change in court in Citizens United. And I think, unfortunately, that case is going to be with us for a long time as the makeup of the court is becoming more conservative and not likely to be reversed. And you're in my lifetime, maybe. Which brings us to the other right in the First Amendment, which is the idea of the freedom of worship. Well, and that's going to become and is already becoming something that was fairly well dormant. I know there have been cases over the years, but under the Trump administration and under the Republican leadership in states as well as in Congress, religion is becoming the buzzword to allow lots of things that would otherwise have been considered discriminatory. And for example, before the Supreme Court, this term is a very important case in which the Trump administration is supporting a baker in a town in the Midwest who refused to bake a cake for a gay couple's wedding and claimed it was his religious right. And that's before the Supreme Court. And if I had to make a prediction, I think it's going to be 5-4 and I'm afraid it may go in favor of the baker. Under the Obama administration and under Democrats, there'd be no question that they would be arguing that it's discriminatory. And that's just one example that is just front and center on what's going on in promoting the rights of people to maintain conduct which is otherwise discriminatory on a basis that it invades their religious beliefs. Yeah, it's really interesting because Jeffrey Sessions, the U.S. Attorney General, just came out with a memorandum, which is very interesting to me because what he was overturning was a prior memorandum from the Obama administration, which basically followed, I guess, the traditional line that the freedom of worship had to do with belief and it was separate from conduct. And so this current Attorney General is now saying basically what you're saying is you have the hobby case in which they said on religious basis they didn't want to have to fund certain type of medical care that dealt with abortions and, you know, so receptives and in that hobby case the court agreed that the corporation somehow had religious rights because I think it's a privately held corporation, not a publicly held corporation. But this idea of freedom of conduct, freedom to follow my belief. How does that... What about if the baker said he didn't want to serve in African-American? Absolutely. On religious basis. What would this government do? What would the Trump administration do? My guess is Sessions would be conflicted. You know, you'd have a tough time wanting to say, yeah, you don't have to serve it, there are statutes that deal with certain types of conduct in public accommodations. But they don't include lesbians and gays and transsexuals. So how strong is... So isn't there a potential conflict? Of course, there isn't. There's not a potential. There's an absolute conflict. And it's going to raise its head over and over and over. But isn't the right to privacy one way of saying that... The right to privacy was used as a way of allowing abortion. You couldn't question somebody's personal body decisions, right? Right. And does that still apply or...? We'll see. We'll see. You're going to see more and more cases. You see it all the time as more and more states become more and more conservative and they try to chip away at abortion in multiple ways, very imaginative ways of whether to make it illegal without notifying the parents, whether to make it illegal after a certain number of weeks after this or that. And they're going to base it on... So a baker...  Then the person down the street, the realtor down the street says, I'm not going to sell a house to anybody as a shiro. Right. But there are certain things under federal law right now that you can't do because it's discriminatory. But unfortunately, as I said, lesbians and gays, transsexuals, excuse me, transsexuals are not included. So you'd have a tough time if you're a realtor saying I won't sell a house to an African American or... Or a Muslim. You might get away with Muslim unless it's a religion thing. I want to thank you. Nothing would surprise me with the court the way it is, with Congress the way it is and with state governments. We're very lucky that there are two coasts and we're close to the one on the left. That's a good thing. So I want to thank you. Very much for coming here and discussing with us this very important subject given our current political climate. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Be good. Aloha.


Some of you have been asking about Shadow in SOD for PvP and honestly I'm sad to say that I think at 25 it's not going to be that viable due to the weakness of the early talents in comparison to disc and the fact that Shadow of Pain trains a new rank at level 26 and Mind Flay being quite weak early on without the supporting extra damage talents that you get later on in Shadow. But most likely the build would look something like this, unfortunately this third point of Shadow focuses wasted as you'll be over capped, then Mind Flay and then you have 3 points extra which you can place into Unbreakable Will.