Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer, and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. What's up Tom? How you doing? Hello friends Did you enjoy your week off Tom? No My week off. Oh, you mean be the show last week. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, I yeah, it was good I enjoyed it.  Yeah, I look forward to being on future old world shows. Absolutely. It's gonna be a good time Yeah, I mean got another game in this weekend. It was it was real good So we did we did a nice little two-on-two this weekend and the Tomb Kings and the Tomb Kings the Bretonians actually teamed up Was a good way, you know the ancient enemies aligned together both bastions of order and mounted grace To defeat their enemies and it was a good good good game a lot of back-and-forth so a lot of fun But of course first We're gonna to this shit this week show it's not about that this week We're gonna talk about fixing the general's handbook We're back in AOS land and we're gonna talk all about how the heck we fix this situation and get the stuff back on track Hopefully within 4.0 So what we want to see out of them so on and so forth, but of course first the news We have a rumor engine we do it's worthless It's trash, you know, there it is Trash, yeah, yeah, it's fine like whatever Yeah, I'm I'm tired Indeed like I'm tired of non-helpful rumor engines like I wish that they would do some rumor engines that actually like generated excitement Yeah, that would be a positive experience, right sure sure Yeah, I mean like I Don't know what to do with this. It just looks like it's a it's a coral or sponge or something like that Yeah, it's no okay. I can tell you what it is ready it's Smoke it's sculpted smoke the thing you hate more than life itself I really think it might be coral like legitimately it might be coral Like just a you know, like the IDK model out of something some war cry band or something Yeah, I mean maybe I I don't know man.  That's all it is In Underworlds or something of that nature so who knows Anyhoo, what else we got? Yeah, so we got a new old model announcement Yeah, let's talk about this. So this was all the discussion on the internet here. Yeah, this was a this is a new Okay, a new model for the old world and You know, I I relentlessly bag on GW for not sharing their The names of their sculptors and artists who do these projects.  I think it's utter and complete crap Yeah, when they don't advertise it Yeah, I just think it's I I think it is an extremely terrible bad-faith practice and any argument They make about protecting people from kickback is nonsense across the You know world of every other game where artists and writers and celebrated and our Yes, sometimes writers of rules do get yelled at but artists almost universally get celebrated Like if you ask people who there anybody who plays magic to any degree can tell you who their favorite magic artists are and have cards that Have moved them or that they love or that they hold in special regard or stuff like that And they know who created that piece of art and when they go to conventions They'll find those people at like Gen Con and buy That stuff in prints from them. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah Because they like they've connected emotionally to that thing art matters and the artist who created it matters Okay So that's my number one starting point here and Then and like this sculptor is an incredibly talented sculptor. He's made many things since Clearly when he was younger, this is 15 years ago. He sculpted this Okay, this is sort of 16 maybe because he I don't know he sculpted it for the 2008 games day in green stuff by hand or whatever, right? Yeah, and so, you know, that's the person's much younger in their career and The The fact that they then chose to re-release this model is doing that guy dirty The fact that they even interviewed him and shared it and stuff in there Like I get it guy has some nice features going on like I don't hate things like his cloak and that the chain and all that I think that's very well sculpted for handmade stuff Like I think that the robes and things like that are all good, but that face Ignore the face like look at the movement on those ropes. Yeah, that's all fine. It's great It's good stuff, especially for for who he was clearly young in his career, right? That's all top-notch work and and honestly in the era of handmade green stuff Sculpts it was exceptionally good exceptionally good. Yeah, but like good night with that face Come on Matt guys. You knew that wasn't ready for prime time.  It does not cost that much money. You couldn't go Hey, here's the mold. Why don't you make a new head and we'll repress a new thing out of it, right? So so like because he would make a completely different head today There's no way this horse can be like yeah This is the thing I wanted released under my name because that is just derpy as I'll get out And there's no way that sculptor who is immensely talented would sculpt the same face today. It's nonsense Like so I just I love the the fact that This is the time they decided to actually like bring the artist in and credit him is when this is the piece And all it gets done is made fun of and memed on and stunted on all weekend like great great That's gonna make the guy feel good. What a great day for this dude You know like I've I'd be like if my paint job that I was forced to take to a competition was something I painted in 2013 or whatever right like it would not be a great day for me. I wouldn't feel good about it So at any rate, yeah, whatever it's fine like I don't know I think your old pieces stand up. I think I think some of your old pieces hold up I was looking at I was looking at your Phoenix's the that you did for me like sure 10 years ago, right? That's still pretty good Yeah, they're they're they're fine. It's okay. But like this This was just not a this was not nice to this person to re-release this like this without giving him a chance to update it Which is what should have been done. Yeah, right. That's fair. That's fair So anyways Cool beans I've said my piece on this Credit artists and moreover be kind to them when you're when you're the one who is managing their their work product And their output Don't throw them to the wolves like you did here So I don't I don't think that's cool I do like the weird little kid following him around with this helmet though. I think that's fun I think more I think more nice weird little kids following him around I don't that's super creepy It's right some of the questing nights have like one of the questing nights has like a kid riding on his shoulder Just like no reason like he's he well, I did there is a reason he's blind And he has a little kid riding on a shoulder with like a little telescope So if he if that little kid dies, this guy's done for like what a what a dark situation that is Um, I have so many thoughts Yeah, the kid's clearly like eight in the sculpt like he can't be older than that. So, you know fun things Has the artist made any new pieces? Yeah a ton of new stuff like this guy who sculpted this has done a bunch of new stuff I think somebody in the comments had mentioned that he did. Gosh, I think that's correct I think he does he's done many other things. So There you go Uh, okay Uh Derek Hildebrandt said do you think if they had a chance to modernize it would go against the aesthetic of the old world style? No, no, I think you could just make it a good sculpt like you don't need to change anything except the head And and probably the right hand Really of the right hand is also very off Like his his index look at his his this finger is just like yeah It's way up here All right, but you know, that's fine Um, there's a lot of good stuff on it. It's just again, it's early in someone's career. Okay Next up. What's next? Um, we you know some folks, uh that are in the comments are tuning in from lvo and tomorrow we have an lvo show That's right That's right tomorrow is a Uh tomorrow is the lvo. Well technically for where we are. It's not actually tomorrow I guess if you want to be completely pedantic, it's Friday at midnight Early, so whatever. Sure. But yes tomorrow night Or 9 p.m. On thursday pacific time So yes Um, yeah, uh looking forward to it. Uh, I don't know if I'll watch it live I don't think we would do a show at like 1 a.m. Unless it just blows the doors off That's what I was gonna say is are we doing a 1 a.m. Show? Maybe I mean if it's the most incredible reveal ever in the history of things Then I would do what if it's docked to electric boo glue, you know, they put together Yeah, sure.  Aren't you and you're like we're doing this get on right now tomorrow They reveal like a massive part of the scaven line through an awesome trailer, right that for the fourth edition laws Like that's what happens. Okay If that's what like we get that we get the reveal If that occurs you might be getting a a phone call one in the morning. I'm just saying that could happen It's possible I believe it. I believe it. I have to be up real early on friday too. So that's just not going to be a good situation But for the scaven I do what I must okay Maybe uh, all right So, yeah, so that's so tune in You know worst case maybe we'll talk about it on friday or if it's just okay. We'll talk about it next week That's what's gonna happen So I guess we'll see It all comes down to you gw make it a good one. All right No, don't make it a good one. So I get to sleep tomorrow. Yeah, sure Any other news there tom? Um, no, no, I think that that is it for us All right, let's go to some 15 minutes tyler That's good stuff. Let's go to some pick of the week Uh, what would you like to share with everybody tom for your pick of the week? Yeah, um, we uh, had some folks, uh An event sign up went live that I want to spruke Which is the battle in the smoky mountains That's 60 some person event. Um, they're unlike the lexington event where all the tickets sold out Uh, it it has many many tickets still available. Uh, so check it out I know me and some folks from lexington are talking about possibly heading down to that It is at the end of may it's like the perfect time slot because I was looking at the other events around it It's the weekend of Of memorial day, so it's like the perfect time to travel um Because you know like if you know, there's an optional sixth game if there's like ties on sunday night Which is great because even if you like stayed, you know, you like won all your five games There's a tie you need to do the playoff sunday evening. It's fine because No one has to work on Monday. It's perfect It's perfect It's perfect. Love it. Um, so check it out. Uh sign ups will be in the comments below Very nice, uh for myself. I've got both a sort of I got a couple recommendations actually i'm gonna stand in for tyler here. Uh, so do you don't have a guess? I feel okay doing two first off, uh If you're still looking for some old world content after last week, uh, I've linked, uh russ the face From face hammer veal, uh, who has a did a nice video going over all the like common magic items Tom, you remember magic items and purchasing them and stuff. You remember that that was a thing I do I do well guess what russ made a video going over all of them in detail and talking about them and Sort of what's good. What's bad and what has different uses and things like that So you can get the the skinny on what's there in the core book. That's number one number two I think two weeks ago tom you talked to me about the magnetic Measuring sticks from yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so that is from dorkdom gaming Okay, I have the card right here because I kaleb reached out and got in touch with me I got a couple of them. I got both the one on the tray as well as the the stacky sticks I was supposed to give you some of those. Oh, it's all right. Caleb and I have worked it out and they're amazing So I'm right. They're amazing. They're so good. They are so good I have I have never been more stoked for measuring sticks in my life. These are quality made products Moreover, he's got like the mat on the bottom. How about that? How about that half inch inset? Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying, man. It's really good. So anyways dorkdomgaming.etc.com it will be down in the description as well dorkdom d-o-r-k-d-o-m-g-a-m-i-n-g dorkdomgaming.etc.com Check it out These are they're fantastic. I meant to hold them in my hands so I could like show people I don't know if you have it in your arms reach, but mine is out there on the on the Minor table. It's fine. They're awesome. You'll see on the site. They're incredible. They're very high quality made I was so impressed with them. I was messing around with them. Uh, so yeah, check them out Would recommend 10 out of 10. I got red and black I got red for the stacky sticks and black for the insets So I have zinch teal Nice for the stacky sticks So if you would rather those I'm willing to trade them just because I like that. I like the red the red I'm sorry. No teal is your color. That's all I'm saying. I'm a fan of many different hues, but yes, it's fine That's fair. That's fair So anyway, I just want to acknowledge acknowledge your preference like the other thing better would have been like hot pink Like right like I know like I know I know the space you live in. I would have taken a hot pink. Absolutely.  I have. Yeah, of course. I do Yeah, yeah, absolutely Um, okay, so yes dorkdomgaming.etc.com check it out Let's let's let's hit Caleb with some orders. They're so good Uh would recommend 10 out of 10. I've never been more excited about measuring sticks. So good stuff uh anyways Uh I get no there's no like compensation for that whether this isn't an ad that's just me legitimately talking about a thing I thought was awesome. Right, right. Um, right. Okay, cool. Uh, let's do some let's do some uh hobby time Uh, all right Uh hobby time Tom what you've been working on?  And so we played like 12 or 14 hours across two days Which is like a really big deal for 10 year olds and like uh, we had some 13 year olds at the table We had a 10 year old We had like an eight year old and it was great. Everybody like hung in there. It was fantastic. Um, nice And so now I'm spending more money than I want to acknowledge um Like like further like on their buy-in right like they're all like let's do this every waking minute of the day So, um, and so now I'm going to have to mix in some rpg models into my painting uh rotation, which you know Like I'm moderately excited about so that'll be fun Nice nice. Have some nice palette palette cleansers there. Yeah, sure. I'm working on a couple things So first off I'm working on some little Bretonian ponies Uh, there you go a little little Bretonian horse some good old classic knights of the realm This is the sort of purple and white color scheme. I've come to that. I really like Obviously models that you've had for 15 years Oh, so long So long Uh, I opened up. I wanted to see what extra I had assembled. I'm not talking inbox Okay, this is an nos Right, I have some of that too But I wanted to see what I had assembled and waiting and the answer was I have a full lance of regular knights A full six pack of grail knights and a full unit of questing knights all just assembled and just chilling as well as uh, I have six peg knights assembled and a green knight Because that's just like an extra keep on I have like 8 000 points of painted Bretonians I need to like take in a like do an assessment of like what are the what are the practical like sizes of high elf Like units like one would feasibly feel sure.  I have like probably 60 sword masters. I have just Like three sky cutter four sky cutter chariot. It's just insanity, right? And so I need to figure out like what my numbers are if I want to play old war With them and then just liquidate the wrath.   I'm saying buddy Uh, I know all right. So here I'm hearing they're pretty hot. They're pretty hot. Yeah, it's pretty good Uh, at any rate, uh, so yeah, that's that's I'm also working on another thing That's a big thing that I can't share so but it'll always you'll see it eventually always, um, but there you go And I'm prepping for an RTT this weekend. So I'm a little more RTT.  I'm gonna take him out for a spin.  Like I'm gonna play the like the fundamentals of of fleshy reports Yeah, um and just and see how far I can um, I can make with that uh with that in a one dayer Yeah Uh, yes, I didn't Marco. I didn't have the link down in the show notes yet You'll have to just go off of what I said, which is dorkdomgaming.etsy.com But that just do that And then you can you can go there you'll have but you'll have to use Magic fingers to make with the tp typing. I will put it in the show notes after after we're done Uh, okay Cool. Well With that Tom, why don't we uh, when we get to today's main topic? How about that? How you feeling about a main topic? Yeah Yeah All right So Our main topic today is going to be fixing the ghp Fixing general's hand. How should these things work? Okay, sure Uh, now i'm gonna here's what I want to know audience First of all, if you haven't hit like yet as we transition into the main topic in 21 minutes, just just burning it down Uh, then, uh Hey hit like or subscribe or do that fun stuff But what I want to know more over as we're talking about this is our tom and i alone on an island here. Are we crazy? I really do want to know where all of you stand on this because I Like I kind of hate The general's handbook during 3.0 like kind of a lot And like I hate all of them I think Truly, which is weird Because I think some of the there's stuff in there that's better than it's ever been But at the same time There's just so much about it. I don't like And I want to know if the audience is like my on an island Are you and I on an island tom? Is it just you and I hanging alone on our desert island here? And everybody else is out having a great time just you know bouncing around on their bouncy castle Or or or not? I've been screaming it for a long time Like a long time. Yeah Like it's it's a problem like right it's it's really really a problem.   No. No, I don't think so I think I've fully come around to the fact that I hate these things Like I I really do that's the word welcome Welcome to my world friend Yeah, but but again like when people say they like it I get what they like I just don't know if like our have my tastes for what I want Deviated so far from the standard Do we have a case where we just have a really split audience out there and like we're not alone But there's some people who are really in sort of camp a and there's some people who are really in camp b and so on right and So I I don't know that's what I want to talk through tonight. This is going to be You're sort of a session of a lot of discussion, right? Sure. Sure I think that there is a certain sub population that probably really appreciates um Battle tactics because they cater to their place time. Sure And they cater to the types of events that they want to to uh, see Okay, okay, so we can talk about that So let's let's talk. Let's do a little overview here. Okay. Let's start there. Sure. I have three suppositions I'm going to make these are these are for me. Okay. Yeah supposition the first General's handbooks in this edition have been mostly bad in regard to the season rules that they have introduced On offer we have the monster season, which was not that Uh And was just generally imbalanced We have bounty hunters. I don't think I need to explain why that was a terrible season and suddenly aced like hundreds of You just just like wide swaths of war scrolls were just not no longer playable. Right and we're bad We had the foot hero season which I found truly and deeply annoying Because it was like, hey, we'll make your bad foot heroes useful by giving them extra points when they just stand around and go do Uh, sort of obsequious tasks Right. Yeah, and then we have current season, which is you know, the season of blizzard wizards and whore frost and like super magic season And obviously look, I I make no bones that I know I probably deviate from most and that I hate magic in aos I think it's like the weakest part of the system Yeah, and so building an entire season on it I understand I might be quite different than everybody else. Maybe maybe everybody else really likes magic And so, you know, this is a this is a thing they've enjoyed um But like from the season rules, I just think they've been mostly whiffs I think the foot heroes was the best one and it was the best because it was boring Because it didn't disrupt everything Yeah, I would agree with that Yeah, like that's that's where I stand and again, uh Like in the monster season You know, what did you have you had a lot of you had basically the let's kill all the monsters Nobody plays monsters Right in bounty hunters You had no one plays the hordes that ever that they were thinking was going to be a thing because the bounty hunters themselves were so strong Right in foot heroes season Or whatever like I'm not using their real names because who cares In the foot hero season. Yeah, people played these things.  Mm-hmm. Yep Uh, by the way as a regular sons of badmout player throughout 3.0 This has just been like whiff after whiff after whiff Of season where it's like no these rules aren't for you Uh, largely the same if you're like a bcr monster truck player in ogres, right? um Like you just go on the line and be like well, everything kills us. We we can't be bounty hunters or whatever to any reasonable degree Yeah, we don't have foot heroes and we don't use spellcasters who are going to throw around blizzard or frost or something And and every one of these seasons has just like radically altered the game and what's playable like in a huge way You know like some of these more than others I won't I won't say they're all equal in what they've done. But man have these all like Man have these all like just Radically changed around the what is playable? They make me not want to play Like sometimes when they've rolled out I looked at him and was like man Like so like one I want to say what ramyam said here. Okay, which is I like the idea of season rules Because so do I I love the idea of season rules. I like the idea of alternations to keep it fresh So we're both in the same place like conceptually. That's what's weird about this conceptually. I agree with this right But then he said his next statement is but it changed too much Like bounty hunters could have been plus one to wound up plus one damage sure exactly right like it every Every season has been just like such a massive swing In what's playable you're just like hey that army you were working on forget about it throw the trash It's garbage now you completely alter it Right for a year Yeah, like it's because this is a yearly thing and so there's like a painting meta to get up to the ghb Yeah, we had like the year the two six monthers and then another year is basically what's happening here, right? And so uh, well, and I mean I think that's interesting because even the inconsistency from gw made it swing so dramatically That like expectations have changed on army preparation like throughout the last like three years Yep Yeah, um It's just been a it's just been a poo experience Yeah, and so like yeah, pepo said, uh, you know my adept con less from last year is total trash now. Yeah, exactly Exactly right like that's a that's a crazy switch And so that's supposition number one Okay supposition number two The design of battle plans have consistently improved and the most recent group was some of the best they've ever been Right The most recent 12 on offer. I think I would easily argue nine and a half of them are good like good Okay, if I saw them on a tournament You know list I'd be like, yeah great. Okay. I'm excited to play these. These are fun battle plans They have this is the area they have they like what gw has shown it can do well is iteration Yeah, when they have to do the same task Repeatedly when they have to like cut from whole cloth make something brand new the first one is always almost always bad right Which is by the way a symptom of not having functional development Um, because you're just doing your development life in the in the in the right you're you're you're designing something And then just throwing it into the wild and seeing how the world responds to it play testing isn't development Right. That's uat Which you do not get good feedback from uat. Okay uat is like smoke testing at best Right. Um flower night. Do you have to play the general's handbook? No, you don't have to you do not But if you want to if you want to play publicly, but if you want to play publicly Basically every every event runs a general's handbook stock Almost every event almost everyone except for of course the event that you and the events that you and I are The biggest favorites of no stop, but steve even this fall Oh, yeah, did you see wizard wizard rules? You're right. Yeah, right He used we used primal magic and everything like all of it was still there. Yes We didn't have tactics, but all the rest of that was there. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. I'm sorry Still terrible I remember the one game we played where we said you guys just not want to do this and they were like No, I don't we wouldn't we don't want to do this either and we were like, thank god All right, let's play a fun game. We're just gonna ignore that Let's actually just play warhammer instead of whatever the heck this is. Okay. Yeah Um All right, but the battle plans have consistently improved like they've really understood how to write good matched play battle plans Okay, so like they've shown that they get it and I like them like they're strong They're fun. They're interesting. They still have a couple of misses in every season But I don't care if they take a couple of weird swings and they don't land That's fine. All right, if I've got nine ten functional battle plans and a pack of 12 And then they took two weird swings. I'm okay with that Yeah, yeah, I agree Because like you want them to take some weird swings. I want them to take weird swings, right in a space like that It's like in your list Right in your list, Tom, you and I you and I know how it is to write an aos list, right? You you have 16 to 1800 points of like, okay This is my list and this has to do the majority of the work, right? Yeah, and then the last two to 400 points You go All right, I'm gonna put this weird thing. I really like in this list right Like I like this There's just one combo that I really like so I'm gonna use it even though it is not optimal and I understand that Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, I'll I'll I'm down with that like take a couple big swings I support you for that. I don't hold that against it if you've got 10 good Battle plans, you've got enough for events, especially if and we've mentioned this on the show before It's not really relevant to this particular discussion But it's worth repeating here as Tyler has mentioned the right answer is that like at the six month mark They put out as a PDF Like six event battle plans like legitimately published in the middle of the year like come january As part of a battle scroll or something where they're like, here's some new event battle plans, right? And they add six so that so the hardcore tournament grinders have some new stuff to change it on I have no problem with that. That's exactly how it should be that way over the course of the year You've got 18 Right. Yep. Not as part of a second publication. Just put six out there Okay Uh Yeah, Keith Rogers said I find aos 3 very enjoyable when played without battle tactics or season rules Just write up the army list and play the battle plans weird like yeah, I agree like part of that's very true Like I can't disagree or I can't disagree with that at all Okay, final supposition some of the rules we have tested In the seasons tested in in quotations here have been great and should be added to the game So as an example, I just have like uh Uh Two rank fighting Right, okay Um, you know, that's a great thing should probably be part of 4.0. There's been a couple other examples like that Um, cw creator said on a supposition you hate the ghp because you fundamentally hate third edition and prefer playing second with the current worst roles I really don't I really don't I like I mean, there are things about third edition that that I don't like Say like the enhancement section of the the current core rules because I think it's written poorly But I legitimately think 3.0 is a good addition. There are plenty of things I think monsters actions monsters actions were a wonderful addition Heroic actions were a pretty good addition There's things I don't like in the addition like battle tactics I think should be jettisoned into the sun in their current form. I agree. I agree Um, but most of 3.0 is pretty positive like it's a lot of cleanup It's still pretty straightforward. Most of the core is still the same and I like most of the additions There are things I would change and no addition is perfect But I know I think I legitimately don't like the ghps. In fact, I want to play the addition I like the addition I don't like that I've never once been allowed to play the addition because we came out with it and then immediately went Now let's layer on a bunch of crazy additional rules that wildly work what happens Yeah, right Yeah Like well, I don't even know what 3.0 is unvarnished Or or without this this extra I mean that's not true because again We've we've been to some events that do strip a lot of that away, but sure But I don't disagree with you fully is what I would say That's like he says good good. Sorry good No, I should say I think that like I don't have nostalgia for second edition So let's be very clear There are aspects of third edition that in general are just flat out better I like the I like the command point world that we live in now like it is a fun interesting Like design right um what I you know, it is it is a wonderful skill test Um, I don't want to go back to second edition I don't want to go back to first edition with crazy command abilities right like that's not that's not the world I want to live in right sure I could see them taking command abilities back off of unit champions or something like there's little changes around the edge I could make but like the way you accrue them and even that's not necessary Like that's just a thing. I could see I'm not dying on that hill for the most part. I actually quite like it. I agree Agreed, I agree. Yeah, so I would uh, but I Yeah, so I have no illusion about Like prior edition, but what I would say is this um third edition Like in general it got more right than it got wrong. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that My my my hesitancy and it and it's been this literally since Nashcon when we a month into the new edition Right, we were driving home from that event and I said I don't like I don't like battle tactics They actually distract me from the game that I want to play sure Yeah yep Yep, because it's just like person goes and stands here and does this thing and Loops around twice and just like I don't like the play pattern, but I know there's a lot of people who do I don't like I I think second tertiary about to be clear battle tactics are a tertiary objective Um, I think those can be valuable right but the But the reality of the thing is I I just don't like their current implementation at all right Especially like and that that that flows through to many different things um, I agree Okay, I'm not gonna work. We've we've we have talked about battle tactics so many times on this channel I don't want to I don't want to go down that right again I could I could do it more, but I know I know we should move on exactly Uh, let's see Len run bad run blad says do we like endless spells? Do you think they'll stick around and forth? I hate endless spells Uh and think they're trash Uh straight up from the bottom like but I know I have a weird opinion There I think most people like them. I think they'll probably Stick around the other thing that would make them not stick around has nothing to do with the rules at all It's the model they already. Yeah, it has to do with how much gw wants to sever its relationship with the china factories where Uh, endless spells are produced Like they're trying to straighten out their supply chain and bring most stuff they can back to the uk So they'll still do they still do some business with china like the large boxes are made in china stuff like that Like the boxes themselves not the not the stuff that's in them. They get packed in the uk, but the cardboard ships Over from china So like they will still have some of that going on, but I don't know how much they want to rely on that I don't know if they want to rely on that for like a regularly sold product. So it's hard to say Um So yeah, I mean there you go Uh, what I would say is this I think endless spells are basically right where they should be Where you see them like in some lists? Sure. They don't dominate the battlefield Um, they're interesting there Um, but they're not like built around right like they're not dominating the play experience in any way shape or form and almost any built Yep Uh, pepo, yes, you are correct pepo. The faction terrain is also chinese made. Yes large boxes faction terrain endless spells Uh, and the general terrain kits like the stuff that comes in the um Most of like your work right terrain or other stuff like that comes from china not all but stuff like that Uh, okay So there you go Uh, ben stafferton says wait endless bells aren't produced in the uk. No, they are not Uh, because anything with a low fidelity print Uh, or sculpt basically which like endless bells. It's just it's like a giant skull with some flames on it It does it's not a high quality sculpt, right? It doesn't have a high amount of detail Anything like that. They're just they shuffle off to the lower cost printers in in china, right and to save money Because it's cheaper to have them printed there in mass and then ship them on a boat 10 000 miles, which somehow that is true. Uh, it's Still way cheaper. Yeah Okay, but like all the models that go in the box So for example, like, you know, you buy a box of models or something If you're just buying like a standard kit everything in that box Including the box is produced in the uk if it's just like a standard size kit So, okay Uh, great Let's look at the past Tom, I want to take a I want to take a walk down memory lane here. You ready? Okay, let's do it Okay Because I think it's important, you know, a lot of people have said hey, I just started Right now everybody's been in this game in aos since the beginning. It's weird to think of it now It's you know, it's nine years old, right? We're legitimately the old people Well, tom, we've been the old people for a while. I hate to break this to you. Uh, but uh, yes um but they they, uh You know, this this concept has been around since 2016. That was the first general sandbook And I thought we would take a look back at a couple of ghbs that I think stand out for different reasons So here we go. We're gonna start here with ghb 2017 And in fact, I'm gonna reach over my Shoulder and show you what it looks like because it's this right here because I will never You will pry this for my cold dead hand Man, it's so good This is a fantastic book. First of all soft back simple easy Uh, I don't know how much this was. Do you remember how much this was? It doesn't have like a price printed on it I think it was like 35. It was something like that. It was less it was less than the actual um battle battle Uh battle films. Yeah Uh, with thanks to dan helen, wane camp, russ veal, less martin and ben curry of the faithful for their play testing services All right, a lot of people not playing this game anymore on that list I love all those guys. They're amazing guys. Some of the nicest people in the world I think that is nearly a hundred percent not playing this game anymore at least at any rate Funny, I never noticed that little that little thank you Uh, okay, then we're looking at the table of contents here for this book, right? Now let me explain a couple things. This is going to look weird to people First of all, this was still very much when they were in the whole open play narrative play matched play three ways to play thing okay And so they have it divided up according to that this was also a time period where basically no one had books in 2017 right Basically, no one had a book uh, so they had to print Allegiance of billions in the ghb. Yeah, and when I say in it I mean like they went to the limit. This is the last page of the book like I know back. He was on the cover. Yes. Yeah, this is printed on the back cover our rules Okay, like They took it to the limit Uh, because you when you when you print books you base it. It's so like you have to it has to be in Uh multiples of four Okay And so like they got to this point and they were like we cannot cut a page This is it And we're not adding three more pieces of paper so Uh, so yeah, the iron suns were on the last page hilarious Uh At any rate, uh, this was good times Plus one to charge for all your iron jaws Smashing and bashing still there And and uh, my you destroy everything you do here. We're over here Ben. Sorry. I'm getting lost in that the the the nostalgia at any rate Yep Iron jaws rules have always been the same. That's what's great about it. I mean they changed but they're always the same okay now Here's what's important This book that that wonderers had an allegiance ability in that book. Sure. They did. Yes Hope for your wood elf players. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you've got the old world now. You're good wood elves are back, baby so at any rate the important part here to understand is These things supported. Yes. They say open play narrative play blah blah blah whatever But what it actually did was support multiple different play modes that were really fun So if you look over here in open play, they have this thing that says multiplayer games and triumph and treachery okay And They had battle plans specifically for these And in fact, here you go I'm going to show you one of them because I feel like this will make it more real for people So this is a coalition of death, which is a multiplayer game This is assuming in basically some kind of even number of players or something You have some coalition on one one side coalition on the other You nominate one of your heroes to be a warlord. That's the person in charge of the coalition. Okay And they You know, this is just one sample.  You see there's three of them. Blah blah blah whatever whatever, right but Uh, you you don't win through whatever the normal method was at that time, right? Instead your victory points are scored as follows You get one victory point each time a coalition slays an enemy model that has a wound's characteristic of 10 or more You get one victory point if you uh, It's scored if a coalition slays an enemy general plus one additional if you kill the enemy warlord And then each objective is worth one victory point to the coalition that controls it at the end of battle round one or two Two victory points at the end of battle round three or four and three victory points at the end of battle round five, right? okay so This has three different victory point modes doing three different things, right? It has a hold based scoring, which is the majority, but then it also has a two different kill based victory point acquisitions, right? Yep. Yep uh so That to me like I loved this stuff.  I wish they would start building into more battle plans honestly in 4.0 Is like alternative victory point paths for doing different things besides standing Like let's let's put in some kill stuff. It's fine. It's okay kill specific things Right. Yeah. Yeah, like kill specific things on the enemy team, right? Yeah. Yeah, like it's okay to have Gain points for killing monsters in this battle plan Right where like monsters are disincentivized in certain battle plans. That's okay. That is okay design Yep Yep, especially if you kind of spread it around or have different things or more universal things like you know Especially if you cap it you can't gain more than one victory point of this type or turn or something like that You know like at the end of the turn score one point if you killed one or more Monsters blah blah blah anything like that, right or so on and so forth The other thing that was in here. So this is the coalition the multiplayer.  So like this when you put up two realm gates on the table I actually have the realm gate terrain.  Yeah, you should I love them. They're great pieces of terrain so With this one you get so you can do the secret objectives and that gives you appropriate number victory points So that's if you're kind of doing real triumphant treachery. Like I said, we never actually went with those We just did big three player chaos games, right? And then one victory point is scored in each phase for every five wounds you inflicted in that phase A surprisingly fun method by the way because it's only for the phase So especially as it gets down late in the game tom, you'll be amazed the number of times you get like three or four wounds on And you're like, ah One short Couldn't get that thing in the phase, right? Yeah, so um And it and it incentivized Mixed arms lists instead of all shooting and all melee job And then you have the the the basically the realm gates to your objective So you score for standing near them and keeping everybody else away, right? So again, you've got a standing objective and you've got a kill objective, right? But I've used a ton of these a ton of times and no like I mean I've played every scenario out of the coalition of death and the triumphant treachery Just so many times over the years since in the six or seven intervening years And I love them. I just I think that they're great And I wish we would see battle plans that broke up and and put in different victory point conditions as part of the thing So that's why I wanted to bring these back up. I also wish we had actual support for doubles teams multiplayer You know all these kinds of things within there. Okay, but we'll talk about that in a minute I also put in the ghp or the table of contents here for ghp 2018 because already you could see the world changing now first off Tom This is very funny. We've got like 50 pages of Allegiance abilities here, right? Yeah, I'd like to point out the allegiance abilities scaven pestilence allegiance abilities scaven scryer Right, this was during the we have way too many allegiance abilities things right Uh Darkling coven's by the way tom different from dispossessed and free peoples and fire slayers remember this aerial air Yeah, yeah before they were unified under the city's book. That's right So but this one introduced aerial battles and had like this kind of stuff going on as well as a bunch of really interesting Uh narrative battle plans that are actually pretty cool Uh in this one Or you can like recreate these sort of different stories from amongst the time um The You'll notice by this one by the way in the ghp. We stopped crediting actual people and we just say with thanks to the faithful Yeah, and the warhammer community age or age of sigmar community for their play testing services already We have you can you can you can watch the cascade back into old gw in real time. Yeah, it's like the pivot Yeah um It's fun and so You know, this was still a good one. I This one was a little goofier with like aerial battles, but it still did a lot of those things The other thing I wanted to share with this one tom uh is Notice that up in the top under conquest unbound a huge amount of things you're getting are terrain Uh terrain piece rules So the arcane ruins the azurite ruins the baleful realm gate They were worse. They were worse rolls for them and they had specific terrain rules, right? Which is just wild It's wild to me that they can't keep a set of terrain in stock that they don't have A standard a standardized set. Yeah like a full offering Probably two or three tables worth a very standard terrain that they keep in stock I mean, I think they just given it up to third party producers basically that they that that they can't beat third party or printers or stuff like that I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting because I mean for years. They did have that right like sure like Uh citadel woods arcane ruins sure. Um, like there are a handful of pieces that were like consistent And that were there for a decade plus. Um Um That said, uh, I If I were gw I would do rollouts with each edition Sure. So like like you have a new terrain rollout with each edition. Yeah. Yeah each edition has Uh, let's say six new terrain pieces that launch with that edition at the beginning of the edition And those war scrolls and those rules are baked into the all the books and all the assumptions of everything And um, and they and they plan on selling That set of terrain for that edition. Yeah Like that seems like a very logical business approach. I have no idea why they haven't done that yet It's weird. I mean imagine this imagine it was just a box That came out at the beginning of the edition and lasted for that entire edition And it had all the terrain pieces And it feels like they almost did that when they put out the tron spine box Like the hard with the cron spine in there. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right Like they didn't have any specific rules for the ruins or anything in there. It's just like here's some good rules could have been Right, like they were so close with that right with that the heart of gerbox. Um They like they wouldn't have to include all the boards Like I think the right answer is something like this There needs to be some style of heart of gerbox that would have like three terrain pieces in it Of the six And then the other three and then all six would sell individually or something like that That seems like that's the like the marketing approach that they should have taken that they just never really taken That's really surprising. Yeah Yeah So at any rate, I thought that was there's a couple interesting things to point out from the past to take this little trip down memory lane As it's going to inform our future discussion Okay, now let's move to to to to the now and future king as it were. Okay Uh Okay so Here's let's let's start here All right, so now I have I have a bunch of books sitting behind me Yup current ghb Now this is a well constructed book spiral bound nice heavy cover fits well in a bag easy to transport There's a problem with this tom as I was looking at this.  It's nice. Yep This book has almost nothing of value in it Nope Okay. No First of all, it's not a very big book secondly What's in it is You You have your battle plans right you have your 12 battle plans Okay, which take up that amount of space And then you have what about five pages of the current Maybe six pages. What is it of the the current season the current seasonal non-sensory one two three four five six six Seven sorry seven apologize seven pages of the current season non-sensory Not all of that is necessarily valuable, but it's there Yeah, and then you have like endless spell scrolls Right Yep, and then from there it's just like a reprint of the core rules Which is just a free thing that's in the app. Well, did you catch that like they basically every ghb Updated all of the endless spell rules. Sure. I mean they always this is where they're taking a swing at that. Yeah Yeah Yes every single one Yeah Well, because we've never gotten it right. We had to keep doing it over and over and over again, right? But there's almost nothing left in this it's almost it's like a small amount of seasonal rules i.e the 12 battle plans and the seven pages of the five six seven pages of the seasonal rules And then the rest of this is just reprint crap. That's basically free somewhere else Right like these core rules. You can download for free Okay, they're in everything else is on and everything else is on wahabidia Yeah, I'm not even like I'm not even gonna talk about that. I'm not even gonna talk about like Stolen stuff on russian sites. Okay. Sure. Like just legitimately from them free Okay, and you do not have to pay for the core rules You can download the app for free You do not sign in you do not register it costs you zero dollars You get that entire section For free in fact in a more usable fashion than what it is here because it's all hot linked Right with like a digital tokyo see Okay so So like really you're getting about 12 battle plans and five pages of stuff Right, that's what's in this book for $50 Yeah, that you buy once a year Yeah Okay, I didn't even buy the last one Sure And like I Mark andre who will said I like the rules than ghp. I don't plan on purchasing the core book next edition That's fine. I don't care if they put them in there, but I'm not giving them if you buy it for it If you buy the launchbox, you'll get a core book Like you don't need to buy the core books or you can go on ebay It's a bajillion of them are we've on sale for five dollars Yeah, yeah, sure sure of course because they'll come out of the big boxes But like my my point being is that they get no credit for that because again They're free as a PDF from the website in the app like they're free in 20 different places Right or or incredibly cheap. So I'm not giving them any credit for putting the corals in this thing I don't mind that they're in here, but it's not a lot of anything. It's not a value add Yeah, you're just printing pages Right, correct okay, so So that's this thing this thing has Right, exactly. Sean Williams said I stopped buying the GHB because I don't want to spend $50 for 12 pages. Yeah That's exactly right and so We've we've we've ground it down From this right, which was Every page of this is is honestly kind of interesting like Remember the regiments of renown all of the well, I mean there are still regiments are now, but I understand what you're saying I know what you mean. Yeah This is packed packed With stuff now again with a lot of that has also become worthless because like some part of this in the middle is points You don't need that in here anymore Right. Yeah all those profiles some part of this. Hey, hey, tom. Look.  Do you see what that is? It's a war scroll update for the grunt stock thunderers when they nerf tom's army out from under him You know, you don't need these allegiance abilities anymore. So like that's fine. Okay Um Yes, you're correct assistant ref the endless spell rules are in there Um, but you can no you can they're in the app as well. You can just go look at the endless spells um okay, so What what things we don't need in this book anymore? Okay points changes obviously We just get them now. They're quarterly. They should not be printed in any way in a book They are actively worse When you're using the When you're when they have to put points into into these books because when they do points updates as part of battle scroll Right the wonderful quarterly update, which I support a thousand percent and think is amazing Okay, battle scroll is great Uh, that stuff can be basically done Those points changes can be done, you know what up to four or six weeks before they get published However much time it takes them for you know editing and layout and translation and all the other sort of rigmarole, right? Whereas if they're going to put points into a book in any way Then that has to be done six months eight months longer in advance Because it's got to get you know this thing wasn't this Uh, let's see. I don't know if it actually says But I mean like I don't think they these books are printed in the uk I still don't think the ghbs are printed in the uk I think these are I don't think any of the books used to be all the books used to be printed in china previously yeah I don't know if these they still are not it doesn't specifically say So either way, um, you know, whether it's going to a uk printer or a chinese printer. It has to be done like crazy far in advance right no and so That like they are actively worse if they're put in there. So we don't want those in there. Okay fine. Cool. Great neat Endless spell updates should not be in this book. There should not be on the spells in this book If you're gonna update on the spells, which fine Okay, like I have no problem with that Yeah Then put them in the battle scroll. That's where they should be They should be done as part of a battle scroll or any standard f aq update. There are existing things They don't need if we're going to change war scrolls around like I don't know why we feel okay with changing those war scrolls And not any other war scrolls, but we can they're freely available on the app Correct So like just put them out as part of any other update you do regularly an f a q the battle scroll You can sync them to whatever thing you want, but that's where they should be They don't I don't need that's just them looking for extra space because they were like well if we don't put something in here It's going to be really thin right Yeah Okay And then finally new core battalions.  These are the only settings these core battalions have Right because the way they're sort of available to everyone It would say if they begin and more importantly because of what they're up against Right, which is your one drop your warlord your command entourage, etc Right that reg warlord command entourage The whole like I just wonder if like I just wonder if The battalions in general like we took a swing in this edition Right. Yeah, like we tried to curtail the prior battalion situation Um and generalize and move it into the court rules and all that Um and we took a swing and I think we missed Right like in general like battalions have just not been What we wanted them to be no on average over the course of the the entire aos 3.0 Which we are now, you know in the final leg up, right, right Uh bat regiment bat regiment has has has been in something like 75 to 80 percent of all tournament lists Like that seems problematic Sure, sure Sure It certainly speaks to a problem Especially when you look at like three of them occur in probably less than one percent All right three out of the six So that's that's a real That's a real situation Right, there's a delta there So just like I think core battalions are just a miss Uh, what do you all think like I want to know what people think like like keep Those who are watching please keep sharing the comments. I am reading all of your comments and I appreciate all of it Uh because it's you know, I I think that When you when you cut this stuff out What are you down to With this book because we're we're not done yet.  It's just extraneous nonsense Okay Yeah All right. Now let's talk about the seasons themselves Okay, yep This is already commented on earlier Uh, but big swings, how big should the rules changes be? Here we go. Let's talk about it. Tom How big should these changes be? Like let's say more than they have been. Yeah, okay. Let's let's make an imaginary point system up Okay. Okay. Yep And it'll just be a standard one through ten scale Let's just say where we are right now the current season Is a Uh, we'll just pick an arbitrary number out of there. We'll say it's a seven Okay, feels four Where should we be vis-a-vis that four? Okay Yeah, they should be half as weighty as they currently are Why take me through it take me through your reasoning Yeah, so they should Like what it should do is take some Like liminal units So those units that are on the outskirts that are almost on the edge of interesting or almost on the edge of greatness But for whatever reason they're not And make them viable Playable interesting alternatives, right? Let me say it this way List should probably not change more than 500 points Sure based on ghb Like list should be should be driven By the book mechanics Not the ghb mechanics And in general I would argue that um, they shouldn't swing by more than 500 points per ghb of like units changed Okay Now but part of that part of that Um And all that's arbitrary that's it's but part of that We're just we're just talking arbitrarily because it's hard to quantify this stuff It's it's pointing to the skew that exists Like there is a we live in a world, right where a os celebrates and perpetuates skew list Right. So like whenever Whenever there's a really like under pointed unit it incentivizes you to take as many of that unit as possible here And it happens every single time Um, you know, like sharks are just the most recent example, right? Sure. Um But there have been many many many Um and They need some way to dial that back in and most of those times These skews are often driven by either Though like what either the meta is incentivizing from the ghb or responding to the g the meta that the ghb is creating Yeah, so there are a couple like interlocking issues that are all interrelated Okay, okay Um, all right audience. I'm gonna go to you here. Let's like I said imagine the current season right is a Seven out of ten on how big and impactful the rules changes are What number would you want to see drop a number in the comments? Tell me what you what you think What number should it be one being minimal almost no changes to the season it would require Very minimal changes to lists, right wouldn't have that much of an impact other than whatever the battle plans do Right battle plans can incentivize and de-incentivize things But we're talking about the actual seasonal rules not the battle plans and how they make you want to change versus Like a 10 would be even farther than where we're going now, right? It's the magic season And it's like the super duper magic season You've got to have you're all your heroes should be wizards and you're only playing with wizards, right that kind of thing right Okay Justin still hadn't said I feel too primed now what I would say a four as well. That's fair. We have primed pretty hard Yeah, sorry, you're not wrong like I sold the audience on that already. So that's fine. That's fine We're don't worry. This isn't a scientific thing. I just want to get everybody's temperature and see where they're at Okay Okay Just watching letting some numbers roll in All right, all right, some looks like they'd be even more conservative than me Tuesdays and threes lots of Tuesdays and threes sure Okay, 250 point change over the course of the year is what Travis suggested. Yep Uh Stewart Angleton said one write a good game the first time please boy steward Let me tell you what buddy sympatico. That's your you ain't wrong Okay, all right three If I'm a GW sales sales 10 otherwise four amazing Yo, okay Yo, okay, cool All right, so people can keep dropping answers in but here's what's interesting to me tom There's one now. This is obviously not a scientific example. This isn't anything. It's just people It's just us sharing our opinions and having a discussion But there's one person who said seven And one person who said higher than Right other than a joke Right. Yep. Everybody else was below where we're currently at Yeah, everybody else who answered was below some number between one and six Right To me that says everything about What what we're doing it just shows that we are way over the top, right? Uh so Yeah, and sickness maximus that I think GW is between a rock and a hard place here If they don't change rules much people will complain if they change them significantly people will complain. This one is tough. Uh, ha But sickness there is an easy answer. There is a such an easy answer here. Okay, and I'll talk about it in a minute But but we'll we'll get there. This is what's so funny about this Then yeah blizzard and bounty hunters are like a seven. Yes, correct Keith What's funny about this is they have completely hoisted themselves in their own petard here Okay, this didn't have to be like this because that's what the old books showed And I'll talk about how that translates in a minute Yeah, okay So tom let's get into some nitty and some gritty. Okay, sure Uh Let's talk about new stuff in here, you know, generally in a season we're getting like magic items special rules unique enhancements command traits grand strategies battle tactics potentially more Right, like that's not even all Okay Should should all of this be in here should we be should we be introducing that much new crap every season? Do we need this much new stuff? I don't know I I don't think so Like do we need to hit every single element of the special things in the game to make a season? Because that's what they're doing right now, right? I understand that I mean Like so my gut says something like this grand strategies and battle tactics shouldn't change season to season Okay, um, but here's the funny thing about that The refrain to that claim is going to be something like this But then the then the game will get boring because you'll do the same thing every single season Yeah Yeah, I mean battle tactics already make the game boring because they make you do the same thing every single game Right, but but but that's my point is that like The recursive character of that just demonstrates the larger problem Yeah, right. You're right. That would be boring if that was the same thing every single season And that would be boring if you did that for three years. Why is it not boring when you do that for one entire year? right Yeah, right, so that stuff shouldn't be in there Um, I think that something like magical items and enhancements are fine I think a single rule would be fine Yeah, right. Sure. That's really Like if we had one like a single season rule and then some unique enhancements Um, that went, you know, that that that helped Then aligns two armies that'll align to that that would be great. Um, I don't know that we need command traffic Right. I don't know that we need grand strats. I don't know that we need battle tactics Um, and when I say unique enhancements like the unique enhancements that includes magical items because magical items are enhancements Yeah, sure. Absolutely right, um Yeah, so so I think a lot of this like it's like it trims itself from a design standpoint Like when you're looking at like looking at doing the development the things that need to fall off are pretty often Yeah, exactly And I think most of this could fall off because I think if you write Your battle plans to be more varied and interesting. Maybe your battle plans have different victory Point things going on in them as we talked about earlier And again, they don't need to be like the exact same stuff that I showed in the 2017 ghp It doesn't have to be those right So like I do think that the one thing that makes complete sense to me in a ghp is a new pack of battle plans Right, that is I know where in anything of this list have I said I don't want battle plans I think they should be in there. I think they're an important thing to be in there In fact, I want more of them I want a pdf at the six month mark every year with like six more new ones for people to play I want more battle plans not less I think battle plans are the grist of the game. I have long held That I think scenarios and doing interesting things in those scenarios are what actually keeps the game fresh Yeah, yeah, okay, like you have your army You are trying to do A thing your army showed up at a place to do a thing right The battle plan should be telling you what that thing is and and like Creating incentives for you to do the thing and what happens if you don't do the thing and Doing other things while you're trying to do the thing and so on right You know in all the games I've written because you you've developed on all of them How seriously I take different scenario writing and and and Effectively their equivalents like that is the heartbeat. Yeah, right. It's the heartbeat of those things. Yeah, Sean Williams said why not include 18? Absolutely. Let's go 24 Right, let's go nuts Like why like yeah, I'm so freaking loosely man Like I am here for battle plans because to me if those are varied and interesting and have alternate victory point methods And have unique things going on or experiences right Then the rest of this stuff becomes extraneous Because then what's different is you you're building a list to play on the series of different battle plans You're not you're not changing your entire list building strategy because suddenly you need To factor in new enhancements and command traits and weird things and should I use this should I use that right? You're thinking about the fundamentals of like What kind of units should I include to do these varied set of things? Right and the more battle plans we have they require more varied things the less people will write skew lists naturally Yep, yep Yeah, like that's one thing that I have Rated about uh Rob's assessment on the honest wargamer one of the things that he's teased out recently is how Certain lists and factions perform better in certain Uh battle plans, right. Um, I think that that data point needs he needs to shout that data point louder Because I think that like part of our problem is That the it's the Uniformization the uniformizing right of events to use like a tight battle set battle plan set out of the You know out of any given season And when we do that we we skew the You know what lists are going to be successful and which ones are right or what factions are going to be successful and which ones are and so I think the answer to a lot of Um stagnation in the meta is A diversification of battle Yeah now To be clear Not all of those need to be battle plans just for one Game mode or or one battle pack. Sure So i'm gonna do a quick count here tom you're ready one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve uh 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26, okay This ghp has 26 battle plans in it Sure Okay, not only some of those are match play, but yeah there are 26 battle plans. Yeah, correct They don't all need to be and again, I don't ever I never liked the match play narrative play open play discussion and frankly I think it's dead But not every one of those battle plans needs to be For every battle they can they can be separated to different battle packs. Yeah with different purposes So you can have the multiplayer battle pack and it has six and by the way if they're like coalition of death style They could still be perfectly usable with one on one Yeah, potentially right or two on two or three on three or or whatever. Yeah, right You could have triumphant treachery style battle plans, you know multiplayer chaos ball Okay You could have wider sets of normal battle plans that are specifically tailored for events. This is the event battle pack Right Or whatever we want to call it Okay, and so uh All that stuff becomes It opens the door to all of it because the battle plan should be the fundamental currency When it comes to these other rules in my mind the the the right level of this is Okay, if the season we're in Where do we think we're going shadow realm? We're gonna we're gonna banish everybody to the shadow realm. Yeah next time Right, we're going to oogoo. That's that's the current theory, right? Yeah. Okay. Cool. Let's talk oogoo then All right ghp comes out oogoo season one right and You should have like a special rule or perhaps a pretend as I said like I did a whole thing on this before You have a set. I have like one maybe standardized rule about like playing in oogoo. It does this thing Some minor thing Yeah, okay Yeah, and then you have maybe like two or three Optional oogoo in oogoo leon rules. Are you with me? Yeah, maybe like two additional optional oogoo leon rules you can use in your games or to's could choose to turn on for the event Okay, and then you have one set of things pick one You get one set of things, right? Here in this season. Here are six new artifacts or something Yeah, right in season two It'll be here's six new spells or whatever or three spells and three prayers. I don't know Right, but that's it. That's the thing And it ties to like the narrative of what's going on at that moment. There's one thing So it's what you have is one rule and one set of things Keep it simple lightweight right Yeah So, um That to me is like That to me is your best case scenario It keeps the actual seasonal rules light It focuses the attention where it should be on making more and varied and good battle plans for different experiences Yeah, right Uh Keith rogers oogoo leon the most feared general of the fec second regimen. That's right oogoo leon Uh, so i'm gonna name my my uh my my gore warden gore warden oogoo leon um so Okay, tom, let me talk about something else that we've we've seen throughout this How much should we have experimental rules that change the core rules? How much should the fundamental assumptions of the game be changing in a ghp battle pack? almost not at all Okay Like if you're talking about fun truly true fundamentals I mean, I would argue the fight in two ranks the brothers in battle thing was is a fundamental change to the rules That's that's game changer, right? Yep. I would agree with that. Okay uh like that's Should should that be in there ever bait like basically not at all is what you're saying. Why correct, correct um, it needs to like from a It's it's about transitioning new players into like ghp play is that it should um It like the game should still play like the fundamental expectations of what the game are should remain consistent from core rules into competitive If they don't then what it does is It creates a new set of unstated parameters that players are having to adapt to and so it inherently sets them up for a bad experience Here's my lr. You're Like you are setting players up to have a not fun experience by changing the rules without letting them know that you're you're fundamentally changing the game Yeah, here's my argument If there's something wrong in the core rules Okay, and I would argue that Not being like basically making 32 millimeter based models 32 millimeter base size models with a one inch reach being worthless Is a fundamental flaw on the core rules? right, okay In fact, let's talk about a tale of two fundamental flaws in the core rules for a os 3.0. Okay 32 millimeter models 32 millimeter base models with one inch weapons being basically useless And the new coherency capped at you know five you can fan out and Six plus you you you got to be stacked right you got to be within Two one inch of two models Okay yeah With the 32 inch The third sorry the 32 millimeter bases the one inch reach We fixed it by constantly introducing over and over again weird experimental rules Sometimes it's a battalion sometimes you can just do it You know like whatever right and we just never I like clearly we know it's an issue Everybody responded super positively to this All right, uh, exactly. You could also say 40 millimeter models on one entry same thing, but I'm just yeah People on those bigger bases who want to be run in like high numbers, but but can't then fight actually Um So we just bounced around never really fixed it Right Yeah And it's just like and it just does nothing but cause problems for people constantly It makes units just like can I do this or not you is war scroll good war scroll bad? It's that easy, right? It's just a light switch. Yeah worth taking utter trash Valid part of your army shelf Yeah, it's whether or not this is on or off Right Yeah Okay Coherency what we do What do we do with coherency? We just came out with a battle scroll and changed it We just changed it We just said they they came over the battle scroll and they were like it's not like this anymore That's not how it works Yeah, six models now, correct, right and suddenly a bunch of war scrolls became usable Right Yeah so Like if we know that's the case Just fix it That's my answer You have a methodology to fix these things. It's called the battle scroll And they need to get less sensitive about changing things that are in the core rules when they're just clearly broken If something is fundamentally wrong, first of all, it shouldn't have went to print but Uh But like let's say it did get into print then fix it You fix it at your first available opportunity. That's your responsibility Okay I think one of the reasons that they avoid fixing things Is because they believe in sort of the they want to maintain this illusory Uh sacredness Of books, right? They're like, oh if we're changing you somebody paid money for a book We're fundamentally changing what's in it Stop it Stop it First of all these things change all the time Okay, they get FAQ'd they get errata Like there's they points go up and down like multiple pages and words in your physical printed book that you did are Worthless a couple weeks after you want. Yeah. Yeah. All right We all accept that we all we all have gotten on this train Like the proper method there is a flow through of automatically updated digital rules and a living rule set that's digital and updates and yada yada yada Right. Yep. Yeah, but I like I'm trying to imagine the same thing in software like imagine you're you have a game Okay Imagine like take this out of the world we live in right now and imagine that you're a video game company And you make a video game and it has a bug in it and that bug is making players lives actively worse Sure, okay, and you say we don't want to fix it people paid for the game We're invalidating the game that they bought The other people in the room would look at you like you're freaking insane yo Because that makes no sense None zero. No. No. I bought your game book for the game Sure, it's not a collector's item Okay Yep, this isn't like the original dnd Uh, what is it legends and and whatever with it had l rick meldobone in it? Okay? I can't think of the other book, but you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah I'm not buying the book for the book I'm buying the book for the game. I like that. I want to have a good time playing. Yeah. Yeah So improve my user experience That's it That is your responsibility as a company. It is wild to me that you would ever think anything else Okay So like if you have something fundamentally broken fix it fix it Stop it get help. I saw that like somebody mentioned the Michael Jordan quote. Yes, I agree Okay, so that's it. That's all I'll say about that. I don't think they should ever be in these these things It's just just fix these things Okay, yeah all right Tom next question fundamental question slightly different Uh, should we stay in the same realm for all three generals handbooks? Like if we're gonna do this realm based stuff if a ghp, which is fine I like telling a narrative story of what's going on exploring the world Should we stay in the same realm? Yes, and so here's how I would say that if you're gonna do rules, um, you have you stay in the same realm Okay, right um, and That realm rule or range of realm rules Like because you could have three rules pick one of these for your realm, right? Um, that maintains consistency across the whole entire edition That's what I that's how I would do it, right is that um that aspect of The rule or the range of Stays fairly consistent or that there's something related in consistent, right? That that stays consistent across the the three ghbs of that edition Okay, um, and then there is an additional rule that's like specific to the region within that realm that you're in Cool. All right. Yeah, I think I agree with you actually I think I like staying in the realm for the three generals handbooks honestly I just think I want to see them actually explore the realm assistant ref said but they don't really tell a narrative story Assistant ref I agree with you, but I think but they could this is the challenge I think we should stay in the same realm and I think we should actually tell a story in that realm Right through the rules presented in the book Yeah, um you know like that's uh That's what we're on about here. Isn't it like if that's the concept The story as it is Is just like presented in a marketing Page that comes out when the book launches right like in the realm of thundia dateline thundia brave soldiers march to war Okay, cool Like that's the only time you really get mention of it, right? Yeah And what I want to see is something in the book in the rules to be more specific That actually tells an emergent story of what's happening And bigger than what's going on. Yeah assistant ref said something something tunnels something something. Yeah, exactly exactly Um, okay So Good. All right So what do we want? So tom I have a big list of things here But i'm gonna hit you with my right up top like we can we can talk through all these things But i'm gonna hit you with a high level vision Okay To me What the ghb should be? Fundamentally Is an exploration Of the world of age of sigmar so the mortal realms And the addition that it occupies and is released under Yeah, I would agree about and it should do that through supporting multiple Battle packs since this is a technology we created with third and i'm a hundred percent behind that they have been woefully under capitalizing on Yeah, okay Yeah That uh Multiple battle packs with lots of good and varied battle plans with different victory conditions Some of those battle packs should be more narrative right and allow for a more quote unquote Story-based experience where you're actually doing and exploring the realm in question and participating in some part of the uh The some part of like what we're in uwu. What's happening in uwu? Show me some narrative battle plans that let me participate in what's going on in uwu. That's what i'm saying Sure Right, okay. Yeah Mark andre who will says I think vince likes his legend of kora newscaster bit I love the newscaster voice tune in tonight and see what's happening Uh, yeah, legend of kora rules. Um, but that that newscaster voice is super classic. Yes um I do think that that should should support within that scope alternate game modes There's so many modes we could explore multiplayer Triumphant treachery Sort of chaos multiplayer doubles Teams yep siege. Yep Right Imagine if we actually have like doubles promoted in a book Like that's a format that's been running in an you know around or teams for example like Team seems to be a completely player capped Playstyle Like it doesn't exist in any gw product anywhere Why have you ever thought about that? I first of all I agree with you and it's wild right because it is my favorite way to play aos It's in teams Okay and yet Right And yet It is basically an unsupported format Right Like it's hard for me to even conceptualize It's it's crazy. It kind of feels like commander before commander was moved mainstream. Right, right, right, right Okay There's your magic gathering There's your magic reference Haiti said but what would that look like vince? How do they tell a story through a narrative battle plan? I'm glad you asked. I'm going to refer back to the sacred tome here Uh and look at this realm gate wars to bind the storm The mortal realms are replete with regions beset by lightning storms of terrible magnitude Some are naturally occurring anomalies in the local meteorology Whilst others land whilst other lands are endlessly lashed by Fulminating storms of an altogether more esoteric nature With such energy to fuel their incantations Sources and electromagnetors of every description can harness these wild forces to their will This is just as well for numerous malevolent Architectural oddities exist in the mortal realms that cannot be sundered without such powers Whether a fortification constructed from enchanted stones or an arcane fulcrum shielded with warding magic Such edifices must be brought down and the minions that protect them destroyed Bless their influence on the region become too great Okay, and so in this particular battle plan all wizards know the fury of the storm spell showed opposite Uh and all heroes have the electromagnetors rule shown opposite So this is a new spell and a new rule that your people get Okay And then you have these objectives you're trying to do and you have a certain thing now. This is very Fairly heavy as far as what's happening tomb king trist and says sound like whirlwind edge whirlwind's edge. Yeah, I agree um But like That's obviously just a more pretty generic realm gate one There's no reason you couldn't just do what I just said But make it like in the realm of ulgu blah blah blah is happening and blah blah blah are moving And forces from multiple places are converging on blah blah blah In this scenario you've got this thing it represents x the secret Realm shards of ulgu that are trying to be captured for gathered power You're either the person who's trying to get it or the person who's not right And it's just like This isn't hard Right, this is like basic stuff Uh, how do you tell a narrative through battle plans? I mean like I wrote I'm not trying to shoot my own horn Okay, but you know, Tom, you know, we wrote space stations or I wrote space station zero you developed it obviously, right? Yep That is a Largely solo co-op focused game, right where you're either trying to alone or cooperatively go through and explore a space station Yep, it's a constrained thing every single scenario in that Book is telling a story of how you're exploring a space station and the unusual things you run into and the nature of the rooms you explore And it doesn't take a lot of extra weight to do that. No the scenario itself tells the story. Yep Yeah So like and I'm just me. I don't have like a team of people so if I can do it they can do it Right, right So there we go. All right now. Let's get into some specifics Season rules do we want them in there? I think yeah, right? We want some season rules. We just want them to be lighter I think that's what we're saying. Is that right? Yeah, I would agree with that. Okay Uh multiplayer format support right I think this to me Whether it's doesn't need to be the same thing every time you can vary it up over the course the addition Could be like one has teams and triumph and one has big cast ball multiplayer and coalition and one has You know siege games in it or whatever like this can kind of fit together with alternative game modes because it's kind of wrapped up in the same thing You can spread them out just like Pretend like you understand that some people want to play your game other than just one person against one person It's fine. I'm not bashing that. Yeah format. Yeah, okay. I think it's completely Great and it will always be the majority way played and that's fine. It should be adequately and well supported I just don't think it's the only thing support Right now a hundred percent of the rules support single player one-on-one format. I'm asking for much Give other people other than match play Like reason to buy the book Like I haven't bought it because there's no reason for me to buy it Yeah, there's nothing that that book offers me that I can't get easily enough somewhere else Like and I know this sounds really silly, but like There are 12 pages that are interesting 12 pages is something that's easily scannable. It's easily skimmable online, right? um If it was actually 200 pages of content like it was previously That's reason enough to buy right like yes, there are the 12 pages, but there's all the other content that's there that I can't get anywhere Like that's just no reason to buy it I'ma speak to gw in the language that they understand. Let me let me take them over to camera too Let me let me share the language of their people. You ready? I told them this Pre-pandemic this is years ago and I stand behind it. I'll say it again here By the way hit like and stuff if you haven't done it yet We've been going for a while now. Hey hit hit some buttons buttons are fun and it make you cool I told this directly to the people who run the whole show regular me with them at least once a year If they actually wanted to grow the player base in an aggressive way Then they would support teams play a lot more than they do Doubles specifically That's how you get new players into the correct correct The way you get a new person to come to a tournament and get deeper hooked into the game and play the game is to have a wide amount of doubles support Because a new person can then partner with an experienced person And go there and not feel overwhelmed Your partner can come with you if they're like if you've talked to your partner and they're kind of curious But they're not going to go to a tournament alone. They're not going to go hang out with a bunch of sweaty Nerds they've never met before and people they don't know and who are sus Okay But if it but if it's you and your partner And you both go together and you're playing together and having a good time difference. It's different situation completely Yeah, right. I'm taking a 13 year old into in the event event scene this fall I'm doing that because of a doubles event. I would never dream of taking him to a to a normal tournament Right just turning a 13 year old leaves Correct And it's not to say there aren't any 13 year olds. I've played 13 year old determinants before sure Some of them are like incredibly mature and perfectly capable of that. By the way, I'm not saying your son's not mature I know your son. He's a perfectly good kid Of course I'm just saying like it is rare that you have a kid who can like be that contained and constrained at that age and so on and so forth But like yes when it comes to having kids there partners new players, right people who've been out of the game for a while All of these people that who are people you want who will spend money on your projects Right who you will bring and more deeply involve into your ecosystem Will become more involved if you encourage and support doubles play And the way you do that is you put out a battle pack for it with actual battle plans Yep All right, you put out material Mark says i'm taking my 40k buddy to a doubles event soon. This is exactly the way right Yeah, guess what folks? That's how I got in Vin said hey This event's a doubles event for this holy war saying let's go and I went okay. I've never been to an event.  We all have those fears and that's completely reasonable Now in a point of fact you could roll in as a solo person to any basically tournament in the u.s It's full of the most welcoming nice people the aos scene is actually incredibly cool And all the times people even ask you hey, is this your first game or you know, how long you've been playing warhammer And when you say it's like your first game or your first tournament, they're like, hey cool No problem, you know, if you need any help Go, you know, we're gonna play cool if you make a mistake and you want to take something back or correct something Go ahead like that's every game. I've ever played Right. So like and that's just most but but for new players, you're not fighting The reality you're fighting their anxiety Exactly exactly That's right. And this is the way you defend that right Yep Signes maximus says when you say siege, I hope you mean an actual castle and siege engines and all that not defend a cluster of buildings Signature, you're exactly correct.  I used it on my day. I used it on display board recently I as an aside, I uh had some This last week and they're like hey tom I have all these dread hole pieces Nice nice and it took everything in me to say not right now Yeah Everything Yep castle cell man castle cell sure people love castles castles are cool. So anyways, that's what I think I think when it comes down to this multiplayer doubles teams sieges Uh chaos ball t and t like Whatever man, whatever right All of this is incredibly valid It should not I'm not asking for it to become the majority of material Doubles actually really helps with the financials of running an event Uh, excellent point. Yes. It makes it easier for toos to run because every table now packs in double the number of people Right four people every table Every table. Yeah. So like to have 15 tables is a 60 person event. Yep Yep Exactly It's just a more efficient use of your space It helps toos actually run a tournament and not be like horrendously in the red Right, right Yep, absolutely. It's that's what's so wild about it tom. It's better for the toos. It's better for the community It's better for gw. It makes Everybody more money and everybody happier and it has zero support It is the most insane thing that I have to sit here and argue for this Like it's insane. It's true like it's truly the commander format for magic Yeah, like that's what it is. Like it is just truly the best the best The best situation for everyone involved except for like your tournament grinder or 2k Like diehards, sure And like that's like that audience is not content in that environment and that's fine That's fine. You can be a legacy player and a commander player. You gotta go to your legacy tournament Then go to your commander tournament. It's fine. Yeah, absolutely absolutely Like it's cool, man. It's cool You can death in taxes and then aristocrats. You can do both. It's it's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. Okay Uh, all right cool, cool, cool Uh, here's another thing tom, you know, we're getting these armies and regiments of renown in the narrative books What about those as something that could show up in ghbs? What do you think about that as an option? I thought about this Yeah, I thought about this because I thought about, you know in these old books Obviously at the time as we mentioned earlier, you had allegiance abilities Yeah, right And as I was thinking about that, I was like, well, we don't need those anymore because we have the books And then it clicked in my head. I was like Or do we Right because if we had I like armies of renown better maybe than regiments of renown Yeah, but like some armies of renown located in that particular Uh What I want to say, you know, or it could be either in that particular setting like this is You know and because it's uh Because the way armies of renown work you just throw out all the rules that are in your book and you just use what's printed on the page You know, it makes it really nice Because you don't you're not it's not adding an extra book you're referencing. You're just referencing this one book now Um, that would also be a way to build the narrative of what's going on in in that particular portion of the world Here's what the city's army looks like that's pushing into where we were something like that the exploratory You know so on and so forth So just another thought that occurred to me of either of those could be perfectly valid and sort of like a replacement for The what was the old allegiance abilities and still giving some love to armies Um, especially if you know, their books are going to be sort of not Coming up like you could you because that's how they were back then back in the day It was like you either had a book or you got rules in the ghp Right, and so if we're going to have as we predict in 4.0 It'd be a two-year cycle to reprint all the books like that's what they're going to aim for clearly like probably 24 to 26 months to reprint all the books so like Make the ghp's inversely proportional to the Where you get armies are down to the who gets the new books? Yeah, I can see that So You get it. Um, I already talked about alternative battle packs and narrative support and we already talked about some new options Like artifacts and stuff like that. I think they should be there. I just think they should be limited And like, you know, I saw somebody when I said spells. They said well, what if I'm not playing a spellcaster army? Sure, that's fine. That's why I said like spells and prayers, but again If it's like one thing I I don't even know if I'd pick spells Honestly, you could pick like new command traits. Everybody has command traits new artifacts. Everybody takes artifacts, right? You could you could that kind of stuff like you could make it pretty universal. You know All right Um, okay cool All right, let's bring this home Let's kind of end out here tom on Some other other ideas, you know, what else could ghp's Contain let's take some real big swings here. Okay, just the other stuff Yeah, and I think they could go like the aerial battles thing put me in mind of this like what a weird swing That was jervis and like him do it because he likes playing games Right, that was him just putting in a weird series of rules that he wrote enjoyed Okay, and although I have no interest in it I think it's cool when they do stuff like that, especially if it only takes a couple pages sure So I was thinking about just like new mini games or other uses for our miniatures, right like Uh Imagine I'm going to make this reference here. Okay. You remember gore chosen I do I have like four chaos heroes fighting each other or whatever it was all about Something like that like a scaled down versions of those kinds of things or what could show up here Vince You publish like I think like this one's not funny Like I'm thinking about something the scale of like the tanks game that we just did this fall You know that's something like tanks for the apocalypse Part of snarl the newest zine from snarling badger studios Check it out the link below get a new mini game and expansions for some of our previous games all for only eight dollars Okay, go ahead wrap it up. Okay. Now the point being that like 10 to 20 pages Right, like you can design a game that can fit in 10 to 20 pages. That is very enjoyable and very fun That's an alternative use for minutes, right? Yep like that would be a perfect perfect example of this and And so something like that would be a great fit for me Like as much as you like there's this brainstorming on what this might be, right? Something like The egregious Miss here. Okay. I'm ready. Right Is actually only partially represented here And it's this The generals handbook Has almost never updated the narrative Imagine a world Imagine a world where the world. Yeah The first two three pages Is like a generals briefing Sure Right of of of what has happened in the mortal realms. Sure Right. This is what is happening. This is where troops are on the move This is the new region of oogoo that we're moving into and this is why I like it So imagine like and imagine that that then casts the vision for what everything else is in that book We're moving into the umbral fields because Scape and assassins are reportedly seeking out an artifact and blah blah blah blah blah blah, right? Yeah, you know, whatever whatever the the thing is that's driving the impetus for the narrative for that season And then the generals handbook then becomes framed by this narrative that then bleeds into all the other stuff It involves rules for a map campaign in that region. Yep. It involves the The battle pack rules and all of the items and everything that's Right, like everything is is framed appropriately and contextualized Man, how interesting would that be? No, I agree. You're right. If if we were as interested in the narrative Of why we're doing these scenarios and what these scenarios represent As the actual rules. Yep Yep Uh Yeah, I mean I am a such a huge fan of maps and map campaigns and stuff like that Again, this is another like this is another method by the buy another thing like it doesn't I know I know we have path to glory and it's been updated in all this But like I'm not interested in playing path to glory. I just want to play a map campaign I want to use my army multiple times, right? I want I want to like have it feel like I'm taking I want to make it feel real I want to lose. I want to lose structure that helps guideline Give me guidelines for creating That for maybe as sickness is highlighted doing an anvil of apotheosis style hero creation Okay for generic or modification maybe even of generic heroes Just light light Adjustment of the chassis right for the map campaign that involves some leveling up of surviving heroes or something like that Right. Uniques don't change Generics can potentially be named and have upgrades or something right something along this line Like It just seems right for design opportunity and imagine if they did this every year Right. Yep, because we just we just want a map exactly Mark Andre says match play campaign rules would be nice. Yeah, you can keep it lightweight It's fine. Like it doesn't have to just we just want a way to connect our games together and like See the territory. We're conquering and like as you said if the battle plans are like seated around the map Or you can feel like you're taking that map There could be like little small bonuses for holding specific things on the map and stuff like that You know, you don't they don't have to use your game changing. They can just be there to make it feel real At the beginning of third edition We were notified that it was the dawn bringer's crusade that was starting, right? And then in the final year of this edition, we're getting the narrative of the dawn bringer's crusade Yeah, right. Like that's been Imagine if all of the ghb's each year had been detailing the dawn bringer's crusade. Sure Yep And like what was going on and how they were pushing and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly right and so that it marries your narrative with your match play So that you don't have these weird products that that end up being these like these push out the door um narrative books that end up having a bunch of crunch rules that all then get invalidated with Yeah Yeah, you're exactly right You're exactly right. Um and and again um Like it's funny because it being framed as the general's handbook like this is the handbook that the general is operating off of right That's detailing the current status of the Yep Like the name is there the structure is the narrative structure is there Like they just have to do some framing some light framing framework and this stuff writes itself Yeah, when this thing originally came out Back in whatever like its first iteration was the general's compendium back for old warhammer fantasy And it did include a lot of this type of stuff and it didn't it was the thing about playing The games and and you know using it and creating map campaigns and and like connecting together your story and expanding your world Within warhammer, right? Like here's more ways to play the game to expand how you view warhammer to To make your collection more valuable more real to get to use your miniatures in exciting ways That that did it bring you closer with your friends, right? Whereas it feels like now we've shed all of that stuff And we have skinny this thing down to the most anemic event focused tight little match play skin bones battle pack That's that's like with an over inflated price And there's no heart to it Right exactly Exactly Yeah Like so this is the problem Yeah, and and that caters and that type of product caters to a particular audience And and by the way, it's not as though again to be clear I don't want the stuff that's there like that. It's good Like good matched play event focused Battle plans should be there now and forever and expand it even Right. I'm not trying to get rid of those Right It's just they've shrunk it and shrunk it and shrunk it and shrunk it and shrunk it until now It's like it's basically just an anemic little sick child And it has no actual it's just it's there's no it is not a little life The product doesn't actually have a purpose In the market Like that's the challenge. Um and that what it's doing is not Uh What it's doing is not actually like enticing people Into playing the game, right like this product should invite people into playing the game And all the diversity of ways that the game might be played. Yes. Yes. Absolutely This is an incredibly versatile game that can be played in a lot of ways And this is the casting vision for for that, right that this this this resource should be your once a year sell For why this game is interesting and dynamic and important Absolutely Absolutely Not eric. I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to demolish Uh anything for you like I obviously tom and I love this game and love the these everything about it The the thing that I I why why we're really going at this is because I do feel as though these this product has materially downgraded and gotten worse Right And I I just I want it it feels like a product that could be amazing because of the past versions of it, right So there you go Yeah, Keith roger said he's happy for us Skinny event focused ghb to come out every 12 months But he just wants to see a don ringer style narrative book on the shelf beside it Uh, what you're proposing is them selling $250 books And the problem is is that neither of those books will invite the other types of players Into their gaming spaces and so this is why I'm suggesting having a single book that's going to sell to everybody Not a niche market that would actually be worth $50 That actually is would be worth $50 and invites people in to other other styles of play Because here's the problem Come this Come this June this thing is thrown in the trash.  There's true truly no use for it whatsoever This thing I have kept on my shelf Because when ghb 2018 rolled around this was still valuable to me And 2019 and 2020 and 2021 and so on Right. I have continued to use resources out of this book in the Seven years since this thing has come out regularly Okay, and that's the difference I don't care if it's a softback whatever whatever book Like I don't care about the binding. I don't care about the printing Produce it cheap fine Right, but fill it full of stuff that's actually valuable To me beyond the literal 12 months. I'm doing it. I have that thing that isn't just immediately bend right after that All right That's the difference. You're you're exactly right and again, it's the exact reason why I stopped buying the product itself Yeah Exactly Okay All right, so Uh, oh, yeah like I mean there's there's lots of ways they could go to keep expanding I still want to see I think they could also do Narrative books and wacky campaign stuff and stuff in there, too Like there's no reason they couldn't also sit that alongside it They expand these ideas even more. I want to see all of that stuff honestly I want to buy more things from them. I just want to buy quality things Sure, sure. Yeah Yeah So there you go. That's what it comes down to I mean they could they could also Very easily like I could imagine a where the General's Handbooks becomes the the bridge product Right, that's that that that actually Like covers the span of gameplay Yep, and then you could still have a narrative book, right that focuses on narrative stuff like the Don Bringer few states you could I I would um, also, um Imagine I could imagine a product which like every year is a remix of 20 battle plan. Sure That is just an expanded compendium Of of match play battle plan stuff related things Yep, agreed And yes, the as Signe said the General's compendium I still have my copy if you can find a copy of it like a half price books or some second hand bookstore Boy, is it a valuable book. It's it's quality even to this day. It is really good Um, so yeah, okay, cool anything else. I want to drop there Tom. I think that's good I think we've we've made our case There you go We're probably too late. I'm sure the ghb for whatever it is for 4.0 has already been Made and locked in and printed and we'll we'll see if any of our things come to pass But I do hope that that uh, that they you know, take this this concept and this kind of stuff on board Uh, so there you go For all of you out there. Hey, if you haven't it like yet do that hit that button Uh, it'll make you at least some percentage cooler And you want to be cooler, don't you? Uh, so, you know do that subscribe if you haven't already all that stuff if you want to support the show There's lots of ways you can do so. I already mentioned the games that I make with uncle Adam You can find the links for all that down below. Maybe you're working on some painting or hobby There's links to amazon where you can buy your stuff doesn't cost you anything extra But gives a kickback to the channel. There's a merch store down there That seems fun if you want to get you know, if you want to wear a shirt with Tom's little guy on it It's a little team Tom representing you can Uh, and uh, of course, then there's also our patreon Focused on really the hobby and review and feedback and all that stuff So, uh, we any of those things are great But as always just hitting like and hitting the buttons and sharing it all that's free and we really appreciate it Uh, so thank you very much hit all those things that make all those dings But uh, as always Tom appreciate it buddy. Good discussion tonight Thank you all out there for all the chats and comments and everything like that that everybody made It was really good feedback really good interaction with the audience tonight, so thank you all you're all awesome as always and uh it barring a Potential I guess show if the reveal is everything we want on friday Uh, which I'm not promising anything. I guess we'll see what happens Uh barring all of that Uh We'll uh, where's that?