Today we're in Matthew 8 verses 23 through 27. We've begun a verse by verse study through the gospel of Matthew We've arrived at chapter 8 and today we're going to be looking at a portion of scripture Where the Lord Jesus Christ is going to teach us something about how that he can calm the storm And so beginning at verse 23 reading to verse 27 Matthew writes Now when he got into a boat his disciples followed him and And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea so that the boat was covered with the waves But he was asleep Then his disciples came to him and woke him saying Lord save us. We are perishing But he said to them why are you fearful? Oh you of little faith Then he arose and rebuked the winds and the sea and there was a great calm and the men marveled saying Who can this be that even the winds and the sea obey him? Who can this be? Now Jesus has been ministering. Let me give you a context so that we can roll into our study He's been ministering non-stop and as you read your gospel as you notice that he's been traveling from place to place He's gone various places to teach the people the gospel of Jesus Christ in in Mark chapter 1 verse 28 That verse tells us that his fame has spread throughout all the region around Galilee And so his fame is spreading and his pace is incredible He's going from town to town. He's going from village to village and And there were times when the whole city would be gathered to see him again in Mark in chapter 3 verses 7 through 9 Mark said that Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea and a great multitude from Galilee followed him and from Judea and Jerusalem and Ida Mia and beyond Jordan and Those from Tyre and Sidon a great multitude when they heard how many things he was doing came to him So he told his disciples that a small boat should be kept ready for him because of the multitude less they should crush him So the Lord has been going from place to place village to village as he's been bringing his message and great crowds are beginning to follow him The people would gather in such great crowds that there would sometimes be Simply no room for them and this kind of life that he's living is Begun to upset even his own family because they couldn't understand him and what was going on Mark again tells us in chapter 3 verses 20 and 21 the multitude came together again So that they could not so much as eat bread, but when his own people heard about this They went out to lay hold of him for they said he is out of his mind He was so busy and so many people were showing up and he was working so hard They began to be concerned for him. What would drive him? Why was Jesus so busy? Well, the answer is very simple He was busy about his father's business There was a consuming zeal within Jesus Christ to perform his father's will to do so to the very end Hebrews 10 7 says it like this concerning Messiah Then I said behold I have come in the volume of the book. It is written of me to do your will. Oh God So this chapter this chapter Chapter 8 of Matthew has presented three miracles that Jesus performed We saw how he had cleansed the leper how he healed the Centurion servant and how he had healed Peter's mother-in-law and The result once again is that many came to Jesus for ministry This reveals that he has authority and it reveals that his authority is exercised as he ministers to the people when we got to verses 18 through 22 There Matthew had recorded a conversation between Jesus and two would be disciples and in that portion Jesus explained the cost of discipleship which he does very often in his teachings because the cost of Discipleship is something that needs to be weighed before you just say well. I'm gonna follow Christ In Matthew when we get to chapter 16 in about three years In Matthew 16 verses 24 through 26 it reads Jesus said to the disciples if any of you wants to be my follower you must put aside your selfish ambition Shoulder your cross Follow me if you try to keep your life for yourself You will lose it, but if you give up your life for me you will find true life And how do you benefit if you gain the whole world? But lose your own soul in the process Is anything worth more than your soul? So the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking concerning Following him and his disciples have when you read verse 23 It simply says when he got into a boat his disciples followed him Interestingly enough there were two others would be disciples that Jesus had basically challenged to follow him Neither one of them would do so both of them Refused to do so, but these people are following him There are a lot of people who will say to Jesus Christ. I want to follow you I Think about a rich young ruler He was recorded Concerning this man in various portions of the New Testament in the Gospel of Mark and Gospel of Luke He's also recorded in terms of his conversation with Jesus and this is a young man He was referred to as the rich young ruler because he obviously was financially well off He was young and he was a religious figure He was somebody who was regarded in a spiritual sense And so he had everything going for him during the time of Christ that that you would want Riches youth and spiritual status and yet he comes to Christ and he speaks to him and he says to him good master We know that you're a teacher come from God and begins to minister to him and speak to him concerning the fact that that Jesus Christ is well-spoken of and But he has a question that he wants to ask him and as he comes to speak to him He's asking a question concerning how he might have eternal life Jesus says, you know the commandments and he begins to enunciate some of those Commandments that relate to your relationships with people and all and the young man's response to him We all know is that he says them all these I've kept from my youth up. What do I still lack? I've got all of these things. I've got these advantages I've got my youth and I I've got spiritual status and and I've got riches and and I'm obedient obviously But but I'm still lacking something and that's when Jesus says sell all that you possess give to the poor and Follow me. You'll have riches in heaven and we're told that that he went away Greatly disturbed because he had great riches. That's when Jesus says how difficult it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven Why because he said for those who trust in riches There's no entrance because you can't trust in riches and Jesus at the same time and the cost sometimes For some the cost is not something they're willing to pay and we've seen that with the the two men who just approached the Lord Jesus Christ and He had said follow me and well first. Let me go and bury my father and all then I'll follow you No, you'll let the dead bury the dead and you come and follow me Well, they didn't but Jesus's disciples dead again as it says his disciples followed him Now this but this particular miracle takes place after the Lord has taken a long day to minister to people Mark chapter 4 verse 1 tells us that there was a great multitude that was gathered to him so that he got into a boat and Sat in it on the sea the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea Later on in the same chapter and mark chapter 4 verse 35 It says on the same day when evening had come he said to them Let us cross over to the other side and so without leaving this boat Jesus now orders the disciples to set off for the other side He wants to leave the area in order that he might continue to minister to other people He and his disciples are launching out towards the eastern shoreline of the sea of Galilee Again, it's not in order to get away from the pressure of the crowds because that's the reason he came He had said let us go into the next towns that I may preach there also because for this purpose I have come forth so he's not trying to escape the crowds. He's trying to reach more Now that's been a long day of ministry Jesus is exhausted and when you compare Luke's account in chapter 8 verse 23 Luke simply says as they sailed He fell asleep So there's the Lord Jesus Christ long day of ministry He's been in this boat most of the day He's ministered to large groups of people answered questions and done his ministry and Now as they're in this this boat and they're about to make it to the eastern shoreline of the sea of Galilee He's tired and he falls asleep According to verse 24 of Matthew chapter 8 suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea So that the boat was covered with the waves, but he was asleep in the cool of the evening a sudden storm strikes violently Shaking the water if you've been to the sea of Galilee or seen pictures of the sea of Galilee You'll note that the sea of Galilee is surrounded by hills. It's like a basin and Wind from the sea will blow through a cleft in them in the mountain and it meets the cooler air That's coming south from Mount Hermon And so the cool air makes contact in the basin with the warmer air and it can on occasion become very violent And so that's what's taking place as a tempest a very violent Storm on the sea and the waves begin to crash on the boat and as the waves begin to lift and crash onto the boat The boat is now being filled with water Now what we're about to see is the Lord Jesus Christ showing once again his authority You're gonna see how he has is going to show his authority over over nature itself But in order to develop this let me remind you of something that the scriptures teach The scripture teaches that in God's original creation man was created to have dominion in Genesis 1 26 God said let us make man in our image in our likeness Let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air over the Livestock over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground So man originally was created to exercise dominion or authority to rule We know that originally the earth is productive and the earth is beautiful Genesis 1 11 and 12 says God said let the land produce vegetation Seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it according to their various kinds So it was the land produced vegetation Plants bearing seed according to their kinds trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds God saw that it was good so man was Originally created to have dominion the earth was productive and beautiful But both the earth and man became corrupt and the result is the curse In Genesis 3 17 through 19 to Adam He said because you listen to your wife You hear that man because you listen to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you You must not eat of it curse it is the ground because of you through painful toil You will eat of it all the days of your life It will produce thorns and thistles for you and you will eat the plants of the field by the sweat of your brow You will eat your food until you return to the ground since from it you were taken for dust You are and to dust you will return You see Satan you served authority and he became a ruler of Prince on the earth Remember what he said when he was tempting Jesus is recorded in Luke chapter 4 verses 5 and 6 It says there that the devil led him led Jesus up to a high place and showed him in an instant All the kingdoms of the world and he said to him I will give you all their authority and splendor for it has been given to me and I can give it to anyone I want to so if you will worship me It will be yours. I have authority I can give to you He usurped it from Adam through the temptation in original fall and Jesus didn't argue with him concerning that as a matter of fact Jesus calls him or refers to him as a prince of This age the prince of this world Paul calls him the God of this world God with a lowercase g meaning that he has authority and He got that authority by usurping it from Adam through deception of Eve But even though Satan has usurped authority from man God is still in control Psalm 59 13 says let them know that God rules Now as we've been going through Matthew Jesus God in the flesh has been demonstrating his authority He demonstrated his authority through his teaching. We saw that in Matthew 7 29 He demonstrated his authority and his power over demons. We see that in Matthew 8 16 He demonstrates it in his power to forgive sins when we get to Matthew chapter 9 Jesus now is going to be revealed as the Lord over nature and So as this is taking place again verse 24 a great tempest arose on the sea the boat Covered with waves. He's asleep verse 25 Then his disciples came to him and awoke him saying Lord save us. We are perishing But he said to them why are you fearful? Oh you of little faith Then he arose and rebuked the winds in the sea There was a great calm and the men marveled saying who can this be that even the winds and the sea obey him They're terrified They're afraid they're gonna drown no doubt the experienced fishermen believe that there was nothing that could be done to save them They're thinking like we would say today. They're thinking I'm gonna meet my maker But they have forgotten that they already have met their maker. He's there in the boat with them Now mark chapter 4 verse 38 gives us more insight and I want to develop this with you and This is really going to be part of the heart of what I want to teach you today and share with you today Mark 4 38 says it like this They awoke him and said to him Teacher do you not care? Teacher do you not care that we are perishing? Do you not? Care This is a question that people ask the Lord constantly. Do you not care God? You see me in danger, but it seems to me that you simply do not care It's a question that people who believe in God are actually prone to ask See we have we as believers that we read the Bible and we see how Jesus Christ can do so many things We see that Jesus Christ is capable of so much and we we read of times that he walked on water We read of times that he multiplied the fish in the lobes We we read about the times that he even raised the dead that he that he cleansed the leprosy He healed the sick he he gave psyched to the blind. He opened up the ears of the death We see this after Over and over again many times many times You'll see that the Lord is capable of doing things abundantly above all we could ask or even think and here We are as believers and we're going through something. That's very tough. We're having a real struggle in our life We're walking through a valley the valley of the shadow of death if you will and we were there and we're Starting to think God what's going on here? I believe in you. I've trusted you I've given up everything to follow you it seems to me that you don't care It seems to me that what I'm going through isn't something that has has got your attention and I'm just asking you a question I'm asking you a simple question and it's a question by the way that I know many of you have asked the Lord You have been at the hospital in next to your father or your mother and your or your aunt or your uncle or a child or a Dear friend and and you're asking God, please Lord, please intervene And it seems as if Heaven is brass and God's ears Not listening to you You're not alone in that by the way People who believe in God can ask questions like that Psalm 10 1 Why do you stand afar off? Oh Lord? Why do you hide in times of trouble? Psalm 13 verse 1 how long oh Lord? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? Psalm 44 23 and 24 awake. Why do you sleep? Oh Lord arise? Do not cast us off forever.  Don't you care that we're perishing Lord? We're going through such tough times and such struggles Don't you care that we're perishing? Can't you see what's going on and? The disciples are there their experience many of them are experienced fishermen and as the waves are crashing into the boat and filling it They're afraid it's going to sink and yet there's the Lord Jesus Christ to sleep in the midst of all of their pain It seems that if God is not aware of what's going on and they begin to cry out and I know that we have to This question is asked not only by believers. It's also asked by non-believers a Non-believer will say well if God is so good, then why doesn't he act to help us in our time of need? Why is God so silent when we cry out to him? Well, it must be he doesn't care that we are perishing We all go through various storms. None of us being exempt from hard times And it's through these times that the Lord draws most close to us Psalm 16 verse 7 says I will bless the Lord who has given me counsel. My heart also instructs me in the night seasons My heart instructs me in the night seasons and we all go through night seasons and the Lord will give us counsel And it's when you're going through the night seasons that you actually draw on the things that you've learned in the past And you understand that God is not forsaken you before and he's not going to forsake you now You see in the times that we struggle in those night seasons that we endure It's times like that that we have a deeper understanding of the ways of God and we learn how the Lord actually does move I was talking in between service to a Man and a woman who are considering getting married and I said to him well He said I'm not sure if I want to get married it I he says I do we don't we're talking about it. We love each other We're having a nice conversation about marriage. He said I thought I'd speak to somebody who's been married to ask him What he thinks and I said I think it's great. I love being married, but it's not easy I mean the first year of marriage.  She's never said I want to divorce him She said I want to kill him a few times or she's never said I want to divorce So I said you know what it's one thing to have a picture in your mind of what marriage is It's another thing for you to actually be married I said because you have within your marriage the good and you have the things that you didn't consider so good You brought into your marriage your mentality as to what will make a good marriage and all and then you have to work that out over the course of a lifetime And that's how it works. Is it worth it? I said absolutely. I said as far as I'm concerned I said Marie and I've had our conversations about this and that is very simply put that should my wife precede me Should she go to be with Jesus before I before I go to be with him? There's no other woman in my life There'll be no other woman in my life I don't plan on ever marrying again because I've already had the best marriage I would never want to have something other than what I have right now But it's been something we've worked on it's something that we've worked every day on for many many years now And the Lord has made it good but If you'd have told me the stresses of of being married this the stresses of having children and and the things we've gone through together Well, those are things that you can't even really realize that that are going to happen And there are things that occur in your married life that that that are challenges And and you get to the point where you have to make a decision and the decision is that we're better together than a Part we're going to stay together and we're going to see this through that's how it works in life Well, my faith in Christ is built and my marriage is built in my faith in Christ And there therefore I've learned through Jesus that that there are going to be hard times that I'm going to go through and That the Lord will be with me and that in those times of stress and in those times of Discouragement or whatever I can still cast my cares on him because he cares for me You see it's through these times that the Lord draws most close to us The storms we encounter give us opportunity to learn what trusting God really is Psalm 42 verses 7 and 8 reads deep calls into deep at the noise of your waterfalls All your waves and billows have gone over me The Lord will command his loving kindness in the daytime and in the night his song shall be with me a Prayer to the God of my life and in the night his song shall be with me God gives us songs in the night seasons of our lives It causes us to draw near to him in order to learn that he is always with us and he never leaves us Psalm 77 verse 6 says I call to remembrance my song in the night I meditate within my heart and my spirit makes diligence search songs in the night a few years ago somebody had asked me if I would write a book in and At one point I thought well, maybe maybe I will and They said can you write a song of write a book and and and I wrote the preface some of you have read this before I Wrote the preface and I was going to write the book and I chose not to But I called the the book was going to be called songs in the night learning to dance in the dark and There's a scripture Job 35 verse 10 Where it says but no one says where is God my maker who gives songs in the night? And So let me read to you a little bit. I'm trying to illustrate how the Lord is with us no matter what and how that God can God can see us through these storms in our life And there are lessons that we learned as we go through them that we would have learned no other way I wrote it. This was the introduction Some songs seem to speak deeply to your heart in a special way like deep calling and to deep The lyrics simply sink into your soul and are met with an understanding that rises from your core Though they may be heard for the first time there is an Unmistakable recognition like an old friend entering into the room and bringing shared memories with them I felt that kind of response the first time I heard Natalie Grant's song held Something inside me reverberated with understanding especially when I heard her broken heart as she sang when the sacred is torn from your life And you survive. I thought what an incredibly insightful way to put it the sacred is torn away But somehow you survive There are so many things that can become precious to us that over the span of a lifetime can actually become sacred to us dreams hopes ambitions Childish wishes that we pray one day will come true that we hold on to tightly Praying and working to see that they may one day come into being only to watch them one by one torn from our lives We stand helpless After someone who could care less about our broken dreams and shattered hopes Rips our innocence from us One by one we lose what once was sacred and begin to live as hollow people Somehow surviving as we attempt to survive the shame and rebuild what is left of our lives Some dreams die hard and when they finally die they leave scars in emotional pain that can haunt us over a lifetime And yet we survive But at one time we're sacred dreams Sometimes morph into nightmares that we daily find ourselves wrestling with we begin to shelter hurtful memories treating them like our favorite pets Even though they produce thoughts that result in sorrow and emotional pain that cannot be expressed in words Eventually this becomes the fabric of our lives Well, we are gradually convinced that this is all there is and all there ever will be Who told us we'd be rescued what has changed and why should we be saved from nightmares is more than a line in a song It is a question that we can grapple with daily Eventually we're asking why this happens to us who have died to live and we simply whimpered to God It's unfair The ironic thing is it really does seem to be unfair to those who have died to live for those who have honestly forsaken all to follow him It can some sometimes seem incredibly unfair We who have died to live started out by living a life with the purpose of honoring Jesus and the result was wave upon wave of sorrow upon sorrow We see children growing up in a home that has no time or love for the Lord excelling Prospering healthy successful. We wonder about that Why are they doing well when they do not love the Lord on the other hand our children may die at an early age Our hearts are crushed. They may injure us through unwise decisions breaking our hearts bringing pain while those who should have been our closest friends and Strongest support Became our greatest critics Leave in our side when we needed them most Abandoning us to hurt criticism and the judgment of those who should have understood grace and extended it to us We may begin to suffer with an insurable disease We find ourselves in constant pain We lose a husband or a wife to a freak accident tragic event unexpected illness our hearts break with sorrow Are filled with questions about the goodness of God? We stand next to a dying father Watching as his life slowly ebbs from him fighting back tears trying to make sense of it Needing to remain calm as we watch the most important man in our lives slip away from us Finally we find ourselves crying and thinking he's not going to make it He's leaving my mother alone for the first time in 53 years. He will not be at the wedding of my sons Daughters He'll never hold my grandchildren I'll never make him laugh again see a smile ask for his counsel Jesus.  I Became a Christian on December 27th 1970 over the years. I have walked with the Lord I've had many sacred things painfully torn for my life. I've ministered to countless Christians who have experienced similar pain Over time I've discovered that these experiences have shaped me into the man I am today and I'm beginning to learn to kiss the thorns that pierced my heart because the pain That they've caused has led my heart to become softened by my wounded healer My life is really no different than the average person Everybody has a story when it comes to disappointment and hurt This is a journey. I've been made familiar with and what I really want to do is remind all of us the words of the sweet psalmist of Israel David Who said though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death you are with me we walk through the valley every one of us But when we have a saving knowledge of Christ We do not walk alone for he's with us and he comforts us The one thing I'm learning and that I want you to know is this God is our maker. He gives us songs in the night and in him we can learn the fine art dancing In the dark The Lord He is our maker He will bring us through these things even though we cry and say how long oh Lord will you forget me forever? No, we will bless the Lord who has given us counsel our hearts will instruct us in the night seasons We will call remembrance the song in the night. We will meditate within our heart and the spirit will make a diligent search Jesus and John 1633 said it like this He said these things I have spoken to you that in me you may have peace in the world You will have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world And so as this is taking place in verse 26 he said to them Why are you fearful?  And he arose and rebuked the winds in the sea there was a great calm Why are you so fearful? That word fearful means to be cowardly or timid you've already seen so much Why are you so fearful now? You've seen Jesus could be saying to them the works that I've done From the walking on water kind of things that I do The cleansing of the of the leper the the restoring of sight to the blind the The restoring of hearing to the death You've seen my power over demons Why are you so fearful? Why have you forgotten what I've done in the past because what I've done in the past? I can do in the present and will continue into the future Why would you ask me such a question it would seem obvious why they were fearful they're about to perish There's a great storm that's arisen. There's waves that are covering the boat. It's filling with water They're in danger and yet Jesus thinks this is an important question to ask of them and It is important It's like he's saying you asked me a question a moment ago Now allow me to ask you one. Why are you so fearful? Why are you so faithless? Now at first we might not understand why he's so apparently confrontational Why would he be so upset and indeed he is I mean when he says this why are you fearful? Oh, you have little faith. That's not a pleasant thing to say Why would you be saying that? Well The answer is in reality before us Notice with me it's Jesus who sent them into the storm Storms and times of uncertainty actually are used by the Lord to teach us something We learn to trust each person who trusts in the Lord goes through storms that test them in every way And each storm we endure Strengthens our faith in him first Peter chapter 1 verse 7 says it like this these trials are only to test your faith To show that it is strong and pure it is being tested as fire test and purifies gold And your faith is far more precious to God than mere gold So if your faith remains strong after being tried by fiery trials It will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world You see God wants to change fear into faith And the way he does this is by allowing us to be in a place where our faith is tested in order that it might be strengthened There's an interesting portion of scripture. It's found in John chapter 6 verses 66 through 69 It says from that time many of his disciples went back and walked with him no more Then Jesus said to the 12. Do you also want to go away? But Simon Peter answered him Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also, we have come to believe and to know that you are the Christ the son of the living God I Believe with all of my heart that if you haven't had this question posed to you You will if you're a believer in Christ You will hear this question once at least but many times over your your walk with Jesus You will hear a similar kind of question that will be whispered to your heart. It will come by the spirit And it's a question. Do you want to go away? Are you tired of being a believer? Are you tired of being a Christian? Are you tired of following Christ? Do you want to go away? Are you tired of the work that's going on right now? Are you tired of everything that you've seen? Are you tired of the world that you're living in? Do you want to go away? I believe that the Holy Spirit will ask that question to you. It's a deep question by the way Don't be surprised when it's asked It may come through a disappointment It may come when you lose a job to somebody who really shouldn't have gotten the job that you were more qualified for It may be when you're going through a marital struggle and you've tried your hardest to keep your marriage together And it's just not going to continue because that person your wit doesn't want to be married It may come when your children are giving you a difficult time It'll come It'll come when you're in love with somebody and they tell you they're not in love with you And you thought God brought you together and you go in your by yourself in your room and you're crying you're saying God I thought this is the one what's going on and Lord whispers am I not enough? Do you want to go away? You will be asked You will be asked in one form or another Do you also want to go away? Jesus is watching these would-be disciples who had been following after him He had just performed the miracle of feeding them and when people's material needs are met very often They think that God is just the best to follow But now he's not promising to continue feeding them materially and He says some things to them that they don't want to hear and they turn around they walk away That people do all the time right? Do you want to go away and Peter speaks to him and says to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. I've had that question asked many times in my life The very first time that was ever asked. I was reading the Bible And I was going through a difficult time And I picked up the Bible and I read it and I read this passage When Jesus asked that question do you also want to go away? And I prayed and I said to him as I close the Bible up in my hands I said Lord, where can I go? I've given everything up. I have no friends anymore I've been going to Bible college teach Bible studies, but I'm right now so discouraged and so depressed I don't know what to do and Then I opened up the Bible and continued to read and that's when I read the Apostle Peter's answer to whom shall we go? And I began to discover the healing power of God and how that you can walk through the valley of the shadow of death But he's with you. He never leaves you nor does he forsake you and my faith in Christ at that point began to deepen and I discovered that There's nothing so deep that I go through that. He's not deeper still And one of my professors was saying You've been praying that you want to be on fire for God But never forget that fire burns and fire consumes And that's exactly what has happened in my life for all these years is the Lord has taken me From one place to another and very often is going through shadows so that I can learn to dance when it's dark Trust the Lord No matter what? Lord don't you care that I'm perishing? Where's your faith? I've been with you up to this point. You think I'm going to abandon you now and Then he shows how strong he is in verse verse 26 when he arose and rebuked the winds in the sea and was a great calm and the men marveled saying Who can this be that even the winds in the sea obey him? Why would he be so confrontational while we need to remember that he had already said in verse 18 of this chapter that It says that that he gave a command to depart to the other side in mark 435 It says very plainly Jesus said let us cross over to the other side We are going to make it through the entire journey Jesus is saying I intend to make it through and so will you and as long as you are with me. You are perfectly safe That's why he could sleep He was going to make it Isaiah 41 10 fear not for I'm with you be not dismayed. I am your God. I will strengthen you Yes, I will help you. I will uphold you with my righteous right hand And he arises he rebukes the winds in the sea mark 439 tells us that Jesus said peace be still in other words Literally, he said be muzzled. He treated the wind as if it was a howling demon and he told it to be quiet and As he did so it instantly calm and these men who are drenched from the waves that were pouring into the boat are Sitting in absolute calmness and that's why they would say Who can this be that even the winds in the sea obey him? The answer he's the Lord of the earth, and he is the Lord of the sea Psalm 89 verses 890 Lord God of hosts who is mighty like you, oh Lord your faithfulness also surrounds you You rule the raging of the sea when its waves rise you still them Psalm 107 28 through 30 then they the sailors cried out to the Lord in their trouble He brings them out of their distresses. He calms the storm so that its waves are still Then they are glad because they are quiet and he guides them to their desired Haven With Jesus in the midst. There's never anything to fear If he said to you we're going to the other side You're gonna make it you will make it to the other side because as long as you're with him You are absolutely safe and you are guaranteed you who began that work will continue Keep that in mind Keep that in mind Jesus said let us cross over to the other side and we will make it being Confident of this very thing that he who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ You see it's easier to calm the storm of the sea than to calm their troubled hearts But the Lord is able to do both and as he did so naturally the response was going to be predictable Who can this be?  He will walk you through and you will make it to the other side Jesus is with you


Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show, where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. Hey, everybody. I'm here with Richard Schneider, a luminary in the literary LGBTQ community. He's the editor-in-chief and founder of the Gay and Lesbian Review Worldwide. Welcome, Richard. Thank you so much. I'd like to start with a biography from the website, if you don't mind, and ask you to add a little to it. Richard received his PhD in sociology from Harvard in the early 1980s. He taught sociology and anthropology as an itinerant scholar for the University of Maryland's European division for the next five years. He then returned to Boston to become the director of research for Boston-based consulting firm. And you live in Boston now, right? Yes, I do. With your partner of 24 years, Stephen Hemmerich, who is now your husband. Yes, and this year, because we're now in 2024, I think we can say 25 years. This will be our big 25th anniversary year. Are you going to do anything? We hope so. We hope to go to actually Venice if it all goes well. I think maybe our big trip. I've been to Venice a number of times, but Stephen never has. So with any luck, we will be on a gondola. At some point later this year, I don't know exactly when. That would be great. It's certainly something to celebrate 25. That would be very romantic, I think. So you returned to Boston, and the name of the Boston-based consulting firm was the Center for Strategy Research, where you remain through most of the 90s. You founded the Harvard Gay and Lesbian Review in 1994 and has remained the editor, you have remained the editor ever since. And I would like to follow it up with a quick description of the magazine, although you're probably more qualified to do it than I. The Gay and Lesbian Review worldwide is a bimonthly magazine of history, culture, and politics, targeting an educated readership of LGBTQ people and their allies that publishes essays in a wide range of disciplines, as well as reviews of books, movies, and plays. It's organized as a nonprofit, currently has a print. This is from John Colacchi's article about you. It currently has a print run of 11,000 per issue and is supported by 7,000 subscribers and 750 donors. Does that sound right? That's about right. I think we usually, that's a modest, that's a modest number. I think we usually say that we have 8,000 subscribers because I think we really do, not because we just say it, that didn't come out quite right. But I think we really have 8,000 or so subscribers. And yes, we have a wonderful donor base. I'm not sure if we hit 750 this year. We have this, we are a nonprofit and we have a group called Friends of the Review.  So that's about 400, I think, we're kind of our core donor group. And then we have a couple hundred more who give at perhaps a, or a few hundred more who give at a lower level. So yeah, it totals, yeah, close to 750, which is about 10% of our subscribers actually give a little extra or in some cases, a lot extra to support the magazine. So we're very grateful to them. Well, actually, to give John Kolecki credit, he said 8,000. But then I looked at your website and it said 7,000. Was that right? Okay. Well, maybe Steven maintains that. And he's also my partner is Steven and he's also the publisher who is much more involved with keeping track of those things than I am. And dealing with subscriptions and renewals and all the stuff that I make. I basically put out the magazine. So my job is basically just to make a magazine once every two months and hope that Steven takes care of pretty much everything else. And he does because he's great. That's been my experience. I've been writing for you since 2021. I thought it was longer. But OK, yeah, I thought I would have thought so, too. But yes, we're very grateful. Well, that speaks to the atmosphere that you create with your contributors. And let's switch to the readers. OK. Donations and subscriptions each account for about 40% of the income while advertising fills in the last 20%. Readership is predominantly, and this is from John Kalecki's article, readership is predominantly male 70% over 60 years old with 66% holding an advanced degree. The renewal rate is very high. Do you agree with that assertion? Yes. Wow. Is it really? I thought it was 60%, but he might be right. Maybe it's about 70% or over 60. Yeah. So we do have an older readership and it's and it's definitely dominated by men, but we do our best to try to balance things. And so I always am aware of kind of the way in which our readership is skewed toward men and toward older people. So we look to for ways to reach out to younger readers and women and all kinds of all kinds of people. We want to have a diverse readership. I don't know that we have a terribly diverse readership, but we do our best. We're certainly trying. Well, I was going to ask you how you're hoping to expand the readership. And when I was I am a subscriber to the Lambda Literary Review, which is an online publication, I saw an ad for the Gay and Lesbian Review Writers and Artists Grant. Yeah. Yeah. That's a new program that we've just launched in the last couple of years. So we're now working on actually just our second year of offering this grant because we, you know, we've done OK financially. In part because of our generous donors. So we decided that we were going to launch this grant and then which would be a cash amount for currently working scholars, typically graduate students who are dealing in some kind of LGBT topic and could use a boost. And it's a fairly substantial sum. We give seventy five hundred dollars for each grant. And then a foundation called Leonard Litz came along and they were very interested in helping us out. And when they heard about the grant program, they were very intrigued. And they said, oh, well, we would love to support you on that. What if we were to essentially match the amount that you were thinking of of providing and then you could offer two grants? So that's what we've been doing now for our second year. We're launching this program with half supported by us and half by Leonard Litz, two grants each for seventy five hundred dollars. And so that's where we are with it. It's it's been great. So far we've we had three really interesting people selected last year. Actually, yes, three, because two of them split. They didn't really request the full amount. So we were able to split one of the grants into two. We ended up with three winners, as it were, who got the grants. And one of the things they do for us is provide an article for the magazine. So when we so when we got around a hundred applicants last year, so we went through all of them and part of what we were looking for were the people who were doing research that might be of interest to our readers. So that was one of the stipulations for the grant was, you know, you're one deliverable will be that you have to write an article for the magazine. So yeah, so we're just embarking on your number two. We have we have hired a new administrator to take it to take over from the last one. And we are just at the stage now where we're putting out to feelers to universities and graduate programs that have that are likely to have LGBT projects going on to to see what to see who applies this year. Well, and you also have a blog. I listened to an interview where your Instagram account was commended. OK, oh, good. Oh, we do have a blog. Yep. And you have a web designer. Yes, we have a web designer, which is actually a company called the Boston Web Group, and we have a web editor whose name is Alison Armijo, and she's wonderful. She's the one who takes care of our blog. And then we also have this little column called Here's My Story, where because I was getting I get lots of submissions, but most of them are more memoirs than anything. And we don't really publish memoirs because, you know, we're just not that kind of magazine, but we get lots of memoirs. So it was a way to say, you know what, we get all these people who would love to tell their story. So why don't we let them do that, but we'll set up a special kind of place for that, namely our our website, our blog. And so we call it Here's My Story. And we've been doing that for a few years. I think we've published dozens and dozens of people's stories. There are usually a thousand words or so. And people talk about coming out or they talk about a relationship. Sometimes there's typically there's kind of the arch is typically something bad happened, but then they got it worked out and there's usually a happy ending. Oh, that's good. Everybody likes that. Yeah, I mean, people like to people like to talk about the struggles that they've been through and how they overcame them. And that's and so typically, gosh, we get a lot of people who had really unsupportive families and had to come out in difficult circumstances and how they dealt with that and some of the details of that situation that they were facing and ultimately how they how they triumphed in the end and came out that experience the readership for the print edition of the publication. That is the idea. Yeah, it must. That is absolutely the idea. I hope it does. We've been doing it for a few years and I think it's kept us more or less at least on an even keel, at least we're not going down in terms of our subscriber base. So I think it's helping. One thing I want to talk about is your literary editor, Martha Stone. She has contributed to almost all of your 166 issues that you put out and I want to get to how you select books to review. But I was wondering, you know, sort of on a personal note, you've known each other since the beginning of the magazine. How did you meet and how did you start to collaborate? We met just because of the magazine. She came out of the woodwork and she she was kind of looking for something else to do. She's a librarian. She's a research librarian. She's for as long as I've known her, she's worked or she did work. She's never retired. She worked for Mass General, yeah, MGH and as a as a medical research librarian. Anyway, she wanted to do something more literary and she heard about the magazine. I don't know exactly how back in the nineties when we were founded, there were these wonderful conferences called the outright conferences and they went all through the nineties. And so we were always there actively. So it may be. I don't remember exactly, but it may be that she found us there or she saw us there. And the next thing I know she was, you know, either I get back in those days, picked up the telephone probably and called. And so I met with her and said, you know, sure, let's do something and collaborate. And as you say, she's been with us really from the very start. She she's our literary editor. So her main job is is book selection. I'm always involved in the process. But she takes the lead. We get a large number of books sent to us. They get piled up on our dining room table and the two of us sit there. She and she goes first. She sort of takes the lead and goes through and there's kind of like a triage process, I suppose. Some of them get thrown into a bin where they're sold to Tim's used books in Provincetown. And so that's the Tim the Tim box. And some are great. And she's, you know, I think we agree. Yeah, that definitely is something that we should try to review. And then, of course, there's a middle ground that we talk about and try to figure out whether we're going to focus or target that book or not. And so then I compile a list mostly based upon Martha's selections. And she writes little blurbs about each book, which is very helpful. And so I compile those into a newsletter and part of the newsletter called Targeted Books, which allows our writers, our reviewers to select books that would interest them. And we have about so I think it's pushing up toward a hundred people on that mailing list of people who have written for us or continue to do so on a regular basis. And so then I always get a fairly robust response when I send out this targeted list of books. And then I kind of adjudicate that and decide who gets what that's part of the process. But yeah, Martha plays a very key role in that whole enterprise. And it's a key part of what we do is really making sure that we cover the most important books and match people. Writers with a book, the books that they're most qualified and that they're most interested in reviewing. You say in an interview that selecting and curating are the two is the main job that you perform as the editor. Yeah, well, yes, especially for. So that's how we do books. Then, of course, we always say like something like half of the magazine approximately is feature articles. And that's the part that I take care of. And I don't know. People think of an editor as somebody who goes sort of line by line and corrects bad grammar, which is a very small part of what I do. The most important part of what I do is really curating articles. So we get a certain number of proposals sent to us. And that's very helpful. And in some cases, we get whole papers or articles fully written that are sent to us. And so I go through all of those proposals and papers and decide which ones look like they have promise for an article. And then I was always looking for themes. And in some cases, these are a response to themes. Each issue has a kind of theme. And so if I've probably based upon what I have in hand, I decide, OK, now is the time for us to to hit a certain theme, which I've been announcing typically in our on our bulletin board or our cultural calendar section. And at that point, I sometimes have to be crude, like I said, OK, like our next issue, for example, I decided, you know what, I think I have a critical mass of articles about San Francisco, which is a very specific topic, but a specific theme. But we did an article. We did a theme issue on New York City a number of years ago. So San Francisco, I think, has played a very pivotal role in our history. So that was the point at which I said, I think we've got almost critical mass for an for an issue on San Francisco. And then is the point at which I went out and I recruited maybe one more piece just to kind of round things out. I might have actually gone for two. I think I had three articles and I went out and I found two more. And that was that. So that's part of so that's a lot of what I do then. So some some recruiting, some some of it involves just going through this lush pile of as proposals and articles that I've received through our website. And you can find that at georeview.org. Just thought I would get that plug in lest we forget at some point. Of course, yes, we'll display it periodically. Yes, my cat is making an appearance back there. I see. Yes, that's Sparky Sparky.  I say we're no barky Sparky. She's a she bark. So I'll say no barky Sparky anyway. So back to the books, you try to publish reviews of books that have been published in within six months. Is that right? So you try to try to stay within six months. Now, let's turn to contributors of whom I am one. Tell us how you find contributors and who they are, basically. I would say typically they find they find me.  You know, like, for example, there's an article in the next. It's actually there's an interview in the next issue of the magazine by a woman who did she was a photographer and she sort of documented lesbian activism in the nineties. And I thought, oh, that would go perfectly with this next issue. So so that was an example of of somebody that I recruited. But typically people will find us through a website, you know, they'll go to specifically Richard Dutch Snyder. I mentioned at gelreview.org as the place to go, if you want to submit an article or a proposal. Typically we get proposals. Most of the time people don't spend the time to write a full-length article until they have some reassurance that it's going to be published. So I get mostly proposals, you know, I don't know what the percentage is, but of the proposals that I get, maybe a third of them or something turned in to actually turn into articles in the end. Oh, and then a certain number of people do just come and say, look, I don't have I don't have any idea for a long article and I have no interest in writing a long article, but I would love to review books for you. That was mine. Yeah, yeah, got lots of those. And then, you know, in my sluggish way, I eventually get back to people and say, or Stephen does, he's usually quicker than I am about this, but I try to respond within a reasonable timeframe to people and say, okay, you know, let me know, what are you interested in? What are your credentials? Could you send a writing sample? I usually like to get a writing sample. Not everyone can write. Many people would like to be able to write, but not everyone has the ability or the experience or whatever it takes. And so I usually ask for a writing sample before I make an assignment because there's a certain risk when you, I don't know, I've got these wonderful, reliable reviewers who have been with us forever and we know that they're good, like you and John Policky, for example, but people who haven't written for us before, there's always a little bit of risk involved. And you don't wanna just send somebody into, you know, the world of writing reviews if they don't have much experience. And so that's part of that process. And then we put this, we put people on this so-called, as you know, as you well know, we have this, we have a list of people who receive the newsletter or receive that targeted list of books. As I said, that's close to 100 at this point. So if people request to be on that list, you know, usually I'll put you on the list. And that's how you find out, you know, what the selections are coming up for forthcoming issues. And so that's kind of how the process works. Let's talk about the contents of the magazine. And you mentioned the cultural calendar and let me just pause and tell you how much I love that. Oh, you do, good. We have a new show that is a counterpart to our interview show. And I do international news and I always try to show a film clip from an international distributor. And so it's a main source of research for me to discover all these films that are being produced around the world. And also another striking feature that people don't often talk about is your by the way column. Oh well, you know, I get a lot of good feedback on that. Really, it's a really important feature and you started doing it in 2001. Okay. And how much research, how do you, you say that you love magazines, you must be an avid magazine reader of other work magazines. Yes, yes, far too much, far too much. It makes it hard for me to read old books. It's like part of my New Year's resolution is to read more books and not bury my nose in so many magazines.   It's oversized and it's thick and there's too much. But, you know, we also get the New Yorker and then I'm also like a science buff. I love science. So I get, I get Scientific American and National Geographic and I read those articles. And what else? I mean, the New York Times, of course, is indispensable daily basis, but also, you know, the weekly Sunday times we get actually hard copy and the Sunday book review. So I do spend an inordinate amount of my life reading book reviews. But, you know, that partly comes with the territory. I don't, I do a lot of outside reading that isn't LGBT related. And part of the reason for that is because I said, you know what, I do enough already. I know people who just, that's all they do, but that's not me.  And so I have, I'm very interested in science as they say, if only kind of on a layman's, layman's terms. And so I do read a lot of even books on science as well as a couple of books that I, or magazines that I mentioned. Back to research on the by the way column. How do you? Oh yeah, oh yeah, the by the way column, the research. Oh, well, so I do it over the course of the two months because, you know, we're bi-monthly so that gives me a two-month cycle. So during that two months, I will, every time I see something that looks kind of quirky, kind of interesting, kind of unusual, kind of fun, something where I can maybe write something that has like a little twist to it, a little irony, a little something unusual, something unexpected. So that's kind of the guiding light for that column. And so all during that two-month period I am visually collecting potential articles. So by the end of the two-month cycle, I usually end up with maybe 15 or so possible articles. And usually I end up with six of the five, I guess, five of these little squibs. It's a one-page thing. It's usually about 1,000 to 1,200 words. And it's based upon this research that I've done over the course of two months. I find that- A lot of response, a public response to it? Oh yeah, everybody said a lot. So I can't tell you how many people have said that that's the first thing they read. Oh. Because it's humor, it's sort of a humor column. It's at least it's supposed to be kind of funny. I don't think it's laugh out loud. I'm not sure that people are proverbially rolling in the aisles when they read it, but it's supposed to give you like a chuckle or maybe five chuckles. And so, I think we all need a laugh. So maybe that's why people will say that that's the first thing they read. But yeah, I get a lot of good feedback on that. It's fun to write. It's just kind of sort of what I've been doing. I don't have a huge record of publication other than in the magazine, but it's the kind of thing that I've been sort of right, that I like to write at ease. Maybe, you know, it's kind of like, I got this idea from Nietzsche of all people who is his so-called aphoristic style where he would write maybe just a paragraph for 500 words on something. And a lot of times they're just kind of interesting observations, little philosophical observations or even observations about current events. So that's kind of in a way that's sort of the model for this. I think I've ever told anybody that before, but of all people Nietzsche is kind of the model for these little squibs that I write. So yeah, they're fun though. I mean, that's like a very fun part of what I do. The first thing I look for is to look at is the calendar. And then I look at the contents, of course. Good to know. Actually, Stephen compiles the cultural calendar. Well, and I love that he has film festivals and literary festivals.  Wherever you live in the country or the world really, you can plug into something if you're in the area. Indeed, that's the idea. That the model for that is kind of the New Yorker, but you know how the New Yorker is very New York centric and it goes on for pages and it's all the Broadway shows that are opening and it also has film and performances of various kinds. And so we have, yeah, we have a film section and upcoming events and plays and then art exhibitions. So I think they're basically four or five sections, five sections that, and it is national. So we do try to, you know, cover the whole country. And basically we are now, US and Canada are pretty much our focus. Although we are called, the game has been reviewed worldwide and we do try to be international. And I think we are to some extent, but the reality is that most of our readers are in North America. Although I heard an interview with Martha Stone, who said she's really drawn to works in translation. So I love that feature too. They have included that too. Oh, interesting. I'd forgotten that she said that, but yeah, sure. I mean, especially, yeah, Martha, she does like those and I think it's a good thing that she goes for maybe books in, that were published a number of years ago in French or Spanish or whatever, but only now are being translated into English. But are already widely read or considered classics, let's say, in another language. And now English speakers can enjoy them. So while English is very much the international language, it's not that dominant. Certainly there are many books that are published in other languages. And eventually, if they get a reasonable following in another language, eventually they will be translated into English, typically. Yeah. It was always my frustration in graduate school. I wanted to get a degree in comparative lit, but I never spoke any other languages. So I was left with English. Yeah. But then lit, but you know. Reasonable French person. I just based on having lived in Europe for a period of time and whatnot. No Italian for your upcoming Venice trip. Everybody speaks, I've been to Venice. People speak English. Yeah, I've been to Venice too. Yeah. No, I don't know Italian at all. I have to confess. I have some German. I did. I think it's totally in mouthballs at this point. Tell us about Charles Heling. Helping. I can't read my writing. Yeah, Charles Heling. Well, Charles Heling is wonderful. He's been with us pretty much from the start also. With the exception of a few years, kind of in the 2000 decade, whatever that is. He's been with us really from the very beginning. He's wonderful. He started out doing line drawings and that was hit back in the days of sort of black and white and most publishing wasn't in color. He modeled, his hero was David Levine who used to do the cartoons for the New York Review of Books. And, but he did a variety of styles I would say. That was kind of like the key style that he used or that characterized his work for the first period of his work with us.  But slowly we added more color, more color pages until now and for quite a long time we've been completely color every page. And so he kind of evolved along with us. And it was very much of an interesting learning curve for Charles because he'd been doing these line drawings for so many years where you have to be and you have to be an obsessive cross-hatcher. You just, there's all this cross-hatching when you do line drawings. He suddenly had to learn how to paint basically. And so he did. I think he did brilliantly. And he uses a program that makes it possible to do this digitally. So that he does his illustrations using this program where I guess you have kind of like a board that's I've never actually watched him do it but it enables you to essentially work on a surface that is similar to working on a canvas but it's all happening digitally and it's all done in layers. And eventually he puts these things together and he's really brilliant.  And so he has been doing these wonderful caricatures for many years. You held up the book or at least, I think maybe both of us did it one time. So we can ask the studio to display it. Yeah. So for me, it's reversed because of the way Zoom works. You should be able to see this.  Oh, there's Greta Garbo and I see Jean Genet. Just totally, this is just totally random. Charles Ludlow, you can see how pretty he is. And here we are, Langston Hughes. So I could go on, there's 27 in this book but this is a compilation based upon, these are all drawings that he's done before over the years, but we're doing our 30th anniversary now. And so instead of publishing an issue for the January, February, if you're a normal issue for Genfeb 2024, we're doing this compilation issue which involves 27 of Charles' best illustrations from the past, or his favorites basically. And I let him be the judge of what he considers to be the best ones. So that's what we've got for this issue which is the one that's on the stands now, we sold in bookstores. So I don't know what you say for bookstores. It's not news stands, but rather in bookstores, mostly Barnes and Noble.  I saw that. Yeah, well, we had to do that because we have some advertisers and we have book reviews. We don't want the books to get, the books just keep piling up and the book we really need to do that just to make sure we don't fall behind. So it's just a little 16 page supplement to go along with this book. But that's what we've got going for the 30th anniversary issue. And it's a way to get a quick dose of Charles, a large dose of Charles Hefling all wrapped up into one package. He's been working with you from the beginning? Yes. And this is a companion piece to your other special issue that you put out in 2021. Yeah, that was for our 150th issue. And now, as you said, we're up to 167 or something. I think that's what that one was, issue 167. So it was so successful, I think, and so wonderful the first time he did it, that we decided to do a follow up. Actually, we kind of had it in mind right from the start that we would do it in two parts to tell you that I'm remembering. And so the first one was called casual outings. And the idea was that we're sort of outing people who were kind of closeted from the past. And so they're starting like in the 19th century, figures like Franz Schubert, and then going forward from there.  So we were kind of outing them, but in a casual way, because they were people who were already, had already, I mean, I don't think we, we didn't out anybody who hadn't, who wasn't already either known or suspected to be LGBT. But this time it's outer appearances because these are people who are pretty much out already. So we get it, they're outer than the people in the first volume. I don't know how many people will pick up on that little pun. But so it's outer appearances in the obvious sense that also more out is the secondary meaning for that title. And that's designed to address popular culture. Is that? Yeah, right. So the first one, more high culture in the second group and more popular culture. And that's why the second group tends to be later. There was kind of a little historical thing going on. So there's sort of, more of them are post stone wall or maybe just pre stone wall, but so the people in the new book are mostly people who are, who weren't, let's say, in the closet. I don't know if some may have been to some extent. And they tend to be more recent and they tend to be more popular culture. Although interestingly enough, Langston Hughes is in both books. I saw that. It was a mistake. Because he did Langston Hughes twice and it was only after, I mean, we realized it at some point in the process. You know, we're doing, you realize, because the first book is supposed to be so-called high culture. And the second is supposed to be pop culture. Well, he's been trying to get it. We're including Langston Hughes in both. And so, well, yes, of course. I mean, you could, a lot of these people, you could include in both of those categories. It's not hard and fast by any means. Menard Bernstein, I mean, wrote some fun musicals for Broadway, but he also is considered a very serious composer of classical music. And Susan Sontag, too. Susan Sontag, too. You could certainly say. And in fact, I think Susan Sontag really wanted to be considered a serious writer. And she was a serious writer. So she might not like being considered a pop culture writer. But she was though. I think she would actually like it. I think she loved the idea that she was sort of a public intellectual. Identified strongly with being that, with being that, because it gave her a forum, it gave her a voice. People could take her quite seriously. And she would, she would hand down, she got to hand down pronouncements about contemporary culture. And people would take her seriously because she was brilliant. And they would listen to her. And she had incredibly smart things to say about contemporary culture. She's great. I'm not a fan of, yeah, I love, I love Susan Sontag. You sort of, she's so intriguing, isn't she? Yes. Also, so I was gonna ask you about the principles of selection. And it was dictated by your colleague, the illustrator's choice. He chose the pictures and then you decided. And the accompanying print selection was drawn from earlier issues of the machine. Yeah, there was some back and forth.  I mean, he basically gave me a list of his best drawings. And I narrowed it down to the 27 that I thought would work best in combination because I wanted there to be a reasonable number of playwrights and visual artists and activists and writers and performers. Those are the five, those are actually the five categories in this issue. So I kind of helped with the final selection, but they're really mostly Charles ideas of, he has what he calls his A list. And he has his B list and he has, he's graded him, he was a professor for many, many years. So I guess that comes naturally for him. So he's kind of graded his own work. And so he chose from his A list and he came up with, maybe there were 30 some and then I kind of knocked it down to 27, which is the number we ended up with for both books. But he's done hundreds. So I guess that means a total of 54 with two of Langston Hughes. But of those, so those 54 are really only a handful of his total, which is, oh, I don't know, hundreds of characters that he has done over this 30 year period. I wanna make sure that I ask you a reflective question, although we still have some time. Over the past 30 years, what changes have occurred, would you say, in publishing and what are your predictions for? I mean, I fear that I can only state what may be obvious to everybody. And that is that publishing has tended to, it's gone online. It has become digital. It has moved away from hard copy to some extent. And yet, I will say this. 20 years ago, people predicted, look, they're all magazines and books are soon going to be digital. There's not going to be any hard copy. And 10 years ago, people gave me the same or any time along the way, predictions that there wouldn't be a market for hard copy magazines in the future that everything would be simply digital. And yet we're still here and there still is a market for hard copy magazines. In fact, there are more titles than ever. What's changed now, I think, is that you have many more niche magazines. You don't have any or many of the magazines like, let's say, Life Magazine or TV Guide or something that would just publish tens of millions of copies. Those kinds of magazines have tended to go online. And so you end up with lots of niche magazines, which is exactly what we are. And you have devoted readership that really likes the idea of having something tangible to hold onto. I'm on. Yeah, so we still have a market. We're trying, it's a struggle to maintain our 8,000. Maybe we are down to seven, I don't know. But we've struggled to maintain our readership. But it hasn't dropped dramatically. I mean, we still have a fairly healthy, robust number of people who subscribe to us in hard copy. Now, having said that, we are, of course, available online. And so you can get a digital edition or you can just get the, you can just pay a certain amount, I don't even know how much, to subscribe just to the website without even getting a digital edition. Just gives you full access to all. Without getting a print edition. We have a huge archive, which is available online. And it only goes back to 2003. It doesn't go all the way back to 1994. But, because we changed formatting. But you can go back to more than 20 years at this point.  Publishing itself, I mean, it really has changed a lot though. Certainly, work publishing has changed. There's a whole lot more self publishing. I mean, it's not the healthy, robust industry that it was, I think, 25 years, 30 years ago. I mean, it's still, I don't mean to suggest that book publishing is in trouble or it's gonna go away. But, I mean, I noticed that, publishers, they publish in smaller lots. The idea of just huge blockbusters, I think, is less. We were born in the 1990s, which is the decade of the so-called gay publishing boom. When suddenly there were lots and lots of new titles coming out and they sold in large numbers. And I think that's going away. Where you would get, I don't know, somebody like Gabriel Rattello or Michelangelo Signorelli or some people who could just write a kind of general treatise on the state of gay LGBT rights. And it would sell hundreds of thousands of copies or something. I think those days are gone. I think it's mostly become a, it really is a niche genre at this point. And there's a lot of self publishing. But on the other hand, I shouldn't leave it there. I mean, a lot of publishers like, I mean, even like FSG for our stress and Peru and the university presses, especially North Carolina, Chicago, Illinois, Wisconsin, I don't know why the upper Midwest, that Minnesota, a lot of them are very strong in LGBT publishing. And so they are still supporting our world. And those are the books that we review. So book publishing has changed, I think not just for LGBTQ readers and writers, but for the whole world. And so we're just kind of like a subset of what has happened to everybody. Well, and I remember the predictions that independent bookstores were all going to close because of alcohol and so forth. And that hasn't occurred either. Well, interesting, you kind of did, but then we're starting to reopen again. I know, I know. There's been a resurgence, which I'd like to- There's been a little resurgence, I know, but there are many fewer though. Well, yeah, and I was an aficionado of the women in print movement. And of course, that underwent a decline, but feminist presses still going and Lou is still occasionally publishing. And one of the scholars I follow is Julie Inser who suggests, as you were saying, that the university presses are picking up a lot of what the old women's presses. Yeah, the university presses have been great. That's true. And they have continued to support LGBT publishing and picked up a lot of the slag. I mean, you don't have like, I don't know, Michael Denney died last year. He was the wonderful editor at St. Martin's Press who really launched- Oh, yes, I remember.  It existed before Michael came along, but he founded Stonewall Editions and which was really the first imprint of LGBTQ books. And that was at St. Martin's Press. And St. Martin's was wonderful back then and they published it. And I don't think they do much anymore. So yeah. And I mentioned FSG, let's see who else. We get Rutledge still publishes a lot again, but they're kind of pretty much in an academic press. Beacon Press does- Yeah, we're seeing as really progressive for a while. Are they still? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, they're owned by the Unitarian Church. Oh, I didn't know that. Well, the Unitarian Church is big in Boston and it's kind of, but Stephen and I are actually members. As two of both of us being essentially agnostic or maybe we answer to sort of Buddhist inflected in our beliefs, the Unitarian Church is a wonderful welcoming place for people who are maybe refugees from the Catholic Church like Stephen or from the Protestant or a Protestant church like me. It's great. So I don't know why I'm putting in a plug for the Unitarian Universalist Church, but hey, they own Beacon Press and they're here in Boston. They're very popular here in Montpelier also. Oh, cool, that's good. I guess they're pretty much centered in New England. And yet, I know there's, Stephen's sister lives in Naples, Florida and she goes to a UU Church down there. So, you know. What are the current, I'm sorry, what are the current projects of the magazine? I know you have Martin Duberman's book coming out, which is a collection. Yeah, that's how. Martin Duberman's book is out. Oh, it is out. Yeah, I think so. I think I have a copy over here somewhere. Line of Descent, right? It's called The Line of Descent and it's a compilation of articles that it's written for us over the years and it's published by, so along with the book on Stonewall and now we've done these two books of illustrations by Charles Hefling, this was a new venture for us because it was not replacing an issue of the magazine, but rather just an extra curricular book that we put out based upon his many articles that he has contributed to the GNLR over the years. And it was his idea. He came to us and said, would you like to do this? And I said, yes, sure. I don't know if I would do it again. It turned out it was a lot of work and well, those two, what you were just asking about. Finally, the issue for us, we did the book, I think it's great. I think it came out really nicely and I would recommend it highly for anybody called, as you say, The Line of Descent by Martin Duberman. But publishing has changed and our biggest problem was distribution and trying to figure out how to do this. And it turns out unless you're big enough to get into Barnes & Noble, a hard copy, which we're not, you're pretty much stuck with distribution online. Well, once you decide to just do it that way, it's all about books on demand. There's like, you don't publish, I thought we would probably publish a few thousand copies and we were using it as a promotion for people who are like new subscribers, which is great, but we probably need a few hundred maybe for that, but so we've struggled with distribution. Like how do you actually get this? We can use our website, we can point people to Amazon or Barnes & Noble so they can subscribe online, but ultimately it comes down to, each book is sort of produced on demand. It's a crazy concept. So that's pretty much how it goes. So for many books that are published, I guess there's no such thing as a print run of like a thousand or 5,000 copies, which used to be quite typical for a, do your best to get the word out, but you're kind of on your own. Wow, that's so interesting, isn't it? Yeah, I know a lot of people are dealing with that essentially. We're getting to the end of our time. Tell us what last words, do you want validatory comments you have for our audience? Well, boy, that's a tough one. You could go a number of different directions with that. I would certainly want to encourage people to subscribe to the magazine or just visit our website. I think I mentioned our web address is glreview.org and that will give you a good idea of what the magazine is like. Hi, sweetie, I hope Greta is used to going out at about this time. So I hope she doesn't start to bark. Give you, maybe validatory is a good word for it because I'm no spring chicken. I've been doing this for 30 years. So I don't know how much longer I will continue. I am slowly starting to look for ways to develop a succession plan, which is to say that I don't really have a succession plan, but I think I need one. And I'm hoping that the magazine will continue. I hope it will continue as a hard copy magazine for the foreseeable future. We have no plans to go online. That's always an option going online and becoming a digital magazine, but I think that really changes the character of the magazine when that happens. So the plan is to keep going for the foreseeable future and maybe not, I don't have any ideas for changing the magazine too drastically. We will continue to do what we've been doing for as long as we can hopefully into the foreseeable future. We have this, I mentioned Alison Amijo earlier who is very young, but she's wonderful and she's sort of been working, haven't quite designated her as our book editor quite yet, but I think she's moving in that direction. And we're trying to get- Is Martha looking to cut back herself? Yes, Martha is cutting back actually. Martha is starting to reduce her role in the magazine now that she's retired, she's moved to Providence, she no longer lives in Boston. And so yes, that's the case. And she's my age. So we need younger people, we need younger readers, we need younger editors to get involved. So we'll be looking to see how that's gonna work out. I'm sure that whoever takes over the magazine will probably change it and want to bring about, we want to sort of put their own stamp on it. And that's good. I think it should, I've been doing this for a long time. I try to keep it fresh. And I've tried to change my own approach to editing with changing times and attitudes and nomenclature. I know we used to be the game that has been reviewed. Now we go with, we've tried to, that's a very retro kind of name. So we really just try to emphasize our initials, the G and LR and nuts, like kind of like the NAACP and not stress kind of the historical origins of our name. I didn't mention, we grew out of a Harvard publication called, and we were called the Harvard Game that's been reviewed for about the first six or seven years of our existence. But anyway, so I think my answer is we are gonna keep doing what we do best for the foreseeable future with a realization that change is in the air. And assuming that we still live in a democracy a year from now, and that all hell has not broken loose in terms of our ability to just continue with a LGBT magazine, I would hope that we will continue into the foreseeable future. And I think many, by the way, after the election of 2016 when Trump was elected disastrous year of election, in the election of 2016, we suddenly had an insurgence of donors and subscribers and yeah, I mean, it was interesting, people saw us as kind of a refuge just as they saw like the ACLU suddenly had a big resurgence because our whole mission has been promoting LGBT rights and freedom and free speech and trying to advance a kind of positive outlook and approach to our history and culture. And that's, I think, what we really are all about. We've tried to, what is the old song, emphasize the positive and de-emphasize the negative or however that goes. And that's always been kind of the philosophy and we shall see how this year goes. I don't know about you, but I'm nervous. And so for those of us and for some readers who see us as kind of a refuge from the horrors, potential horrors of right wing takeover or something, I think of us that way too to some extent and we'll continue to do so. So I guess that's the best I can do for the future. Because we just don't know what's gonna happen. Our fingers are crossed. And it's been 30 years and you've continued for 30 years and I think you'll prevail and I hope we all prevail. I hope the magazine, I don't see myself going on for another 30 years. I would love to see the magazine last for another 30. That would be wonderful. And who knows, we'll work on that and see how it goes. But I will probably not be here to register. Let's go for five years at a time, I think that makes sense. Richard Schneider, thank you for joining us. This has been delightful. Oh, well, thank you, Ann. I'm so happy to do this. And I'm thrilled that we were able to have this conversation. Thank you for joining us. And until next time, remember, resist.