Okay, I guess we'll head down the agenda pike then Except for Jane, and I suspect you'll show up for too long First thing to do tonight on Monday, October 7th is call the meeting to order and approve the agenda This point is there any changes or deletions that anybody would like to put in Seeing none Actually, I would like to speak just a few minutes about something that came Me the other night on news about Salton Salton roads just plug that in here at the end of the End of there just a brief discussion about it Well that said would somebody love to approve the agenda, please I Move to approve the agenda as amended Okay second All those who wish to approve say aye. Hi. Hi Consent agenda items only consist of the minutes of September 16, so that would Take a quick approval. Somebody wants to make that motion Make a motion to approve the minutes of the September second And all those wish to say aye for that as well. Hi. Hi, right Public Is there anybody here from the public wishes to speak at this time pertaining to anything outside of the agenda? if not we can Move forward and Start in on the real first agenda item, which is discussing the Guptal Road speed signs Okay Yeah, if you're interested in coming up to the mic and You can kick the conversation off and just state your name and let us know what you're thinking. Hi I'm Macy. Well, and I'm a freshman at Harwood Union High School. I live on Guptal Road I'm here with my mom my stepdad Heath Dolly and my brother who's currently 12 and I'm 14 We're really concerned About the speed issues on Guptal Road There's been multiple times where my brother and his friends pull out of our driveway Which is at the bottom of the hill on Guptal Road right in this big dip and a car has almost hit them it's really really scary and I really don't want to get hit and That's all I have to say it. Thank you. I'm dad So I've met you all before we were here. I think about a year ago and Neighbors have been here more than once so this are more than twice now I believe so we're here because the last time I was here. I made requests. We made requests That there was some a speeding sign or at least a flashing light before something happened and I thought I walked away that with a resolution that a Flashing light was going to be put up or some sort of Thing was going to happen. I walked away believing that you guys heard our concerns before something tragic happened, right? and then our dog got hit and Our dog got hit because somebody was speeding he was going approximately 35 to 45 Heath did a whole like a whole scene and He stopped thank goodness and But it was it could have been much more tragic King lived and we're very excited about King's living through it He's a bulldog. He took the car full-on But this was exactly why we came to you over a year ago Is that people fly on that road they gain speed and I heard you're like the state police are gonna be up there It's gonna be fine construction's gonna start and that's great Except that none of that really has solved the issue that the state police have been great. I You know, they've been up there. They've been patrolling. They don't patrol at five in the morning They don't patrol on Sunday, which is when our dog got hit Our was going so fast that the woman who was walking on the road who King was going to greet She thought she was going to be hit And there's a theory that my daughter had come up with that King actually saved her life by running into the road And for a 14 year old and a 12 year old to have to make up a story about why our dog got hit Instead of the town coming up and having to explain to your kids that The town promised or said one thing and didn't do anything is a harsh reality of politics. I Think they're learning that anyway through school But it's different when you live here in Vermont and you think that you all are listening and paying attention and actually care I walked away with a general feeling of like yes Okay, heard our complaint and the flashing sign is gonna come, right? I heard the reasons why there was no bumps allowed the speed bumps allowed.  I've spoken with the mentors.  I don't know if you know maybe you're maybe you're so old that you've lost sight of what kids do But they play they run across the street to the Andras's Cap the trees they pour the maple syrup they run up to the skate park this is the best living that you can have and Safety is the number one thing for children There are so many things in Vermont that we don't have to worry about and this is one thing that we do Right and with the light. I think there was like oh well with the light. It will get better, right? No, it's actually re-rooted people off of 100 coming through I'm just I'm really at this point begging you before Something tragic happens Because I thought you heard me before and you clearly didn't and in the conversation through posting something on front porch forum Several people reached out to me from Maple Street if they have the same issue Their dog dogs have been killed, you know, and I know that dogs like they run in the road These things happen and it's tragic But when you have someone driving 35 to 40 miles an hour in a 25 Where kids are playing and there's no sign for kids playing. There's no flashing light. They have no reason to slow down So I'm just really here again to urge you Something instead of saying that you will or instead of pretending that you care Just tell us we're not going to do anything because we don't care But then at least my children will know the truth and I will know the truth instead of having faith that you were going to do I think before we get too far down this road. I'd like Bill to tell us Because basically as I understood it on the select board We agreed to install the sign. We set a budget for it at that meeting Then there was a discussion that there was there was additional signage and other In addition to that request there was a project of signage and other things going on on Guptal We were told that There was going to be That was going to now be included in that project. I know I've asked Bill at least once about this sign and I apologize for not putting more pressure on understanding When it was going to be what the timeline is at some point we have to say that timeline is not working we're going to put this in and $5,000 or whatever it was that we approve but I think that's part of the unfortunate circumstance here is that It got approved at that meeting There was another project that there was an opportunity and I'm not saying this was the right decision But there was an opportunity for it to be included in that and basically Covered to a certain extent whether it's the full price or a certain portion of it I don't think there was enough From from a select for example into an understanding on timing. I didn't think it would be this long personally but I apologize for not being more on that and understanding that timing so I'm sorry, but bill. I guess if you could tell us more there so I Understand your frustration Excuse me. I understand your frustration and I Feel badly if you really feel that nobody listened to you I believe we listened and we all heard and Mark's right. There's a Won't get the name right, but I believe it's something to the effect of high-risk role road projects that the state of Vermont through the agency of transportation is undertaking and We asked them to come in we put Speed or traffic counting to about shortly after the meeting that we had up in the center The Regional Planning Commission gathered that information. They analyzed it and to talk about Three-way stop sign at the intersection there the recommendation from the B trans people were there's not a warrant for a three-way stop sign They did agree to put the feedback speed limit sign in and That project was scheduled as far as I knew to be done this year I've asked Bill Woodruff a couple of different times about it after I saw your post on Forge forum, which I responded to by the way And I put this information in there I asked Bill about it and he said well the trans has it programmed and scheduled but They've got other projects, and it's it's probably not going to happen until 2020 So that's the latest information that I have on that and I know it's no solace to you, but there are lots of projects in lots of places and And these things take money and they take time to get done I did get a phone call today from another person on who lives in that area He's not able to be here tonight He did affirm most of what Ms. Crier just Talked about that speeding is a is a problem there I don't know how often if at all you folks have called the state police to report speeding I encourage I encourage you to do that We have the state police in town. There's 80 hours worth of coverage every week one day through Saturday and They don't cover all shifts They don't cover all days and they can't be in all places at once So this product project is still in play One of the things the person who spoke with me on the phone today suggested was that you know We should paint stop bars that stop line. I mean that stops signs. I think that's a good suggestion We'll try to get that accomplished as soon as we can And I don't I don't mean to make light at all of your concerns The flashing feedback sign I expect will will dampen some of the acceleration through there, but People get accustomed to whatever signage is out there and then they do what feels right to them and You know, there are speed limit signs. They're already they see them and they go by There are ordinances about keeping dogs leashed and people let them run and then they get hit So I'm not I'm not suggesting that we're not going to do this project if the board wants me to spend money that we Don't have in the budget because this is a project that is scheduled to go ahead with signage through the state You know, I'll try to get it up. I can't make any promises how quickly we can get that sign up If we do it ourselves, we'll pay for it ourselves. It won't be part of that project Was this about a $5,000 sign or that's what I don't know Is there any way is this is this program that would give us the sign from the state from V transit state? Is that something that they would pay a hundred percent? Would they do a reimbursement if we were to pay for it now? We could look into this Well, I'm gonna say I don't know that we didn't hear you. Okay When I first got on the board back a few years ago Somebody said I wouldn't last you very long because things don't move at the pace that I like to see him Move that and they were right Things that are involved in government take forever If I could I can tell you know, I live right there on Guptell Road as well Cross some steves and know it And I have two grandchildren And we make sure they stay away from the road More times than not driving up in that area whether it be kneeling flats Guptell road any number of those roads And I travel them all the time because that's where most of my work is in that area More times than not I wanted to take law into my own hands When it comes to people going like hell One of the reasons that I was trying to Possibly or one of the considerations there when I was talking earlier on a previous meeting about our salt and sand use in in the town and maybe reducing it and had asked about whether or not If we change the conditions of how we treated our roads Is there a possibility that we could reduce the speed limit sign to help with people? driving too fast on Possibly less treated roads. The problem is the town doesn't have the right To make the chain the speed limit changes. That's a state issue That we see that we can't seem to get past at least that's what I've been told It's not a state issue the town has the authority to set speed limits on town highways between 25 and 50 You can't go lower than 25. You can't go higher than 50 and in order to set a speed limit you have to do Study a trap and it's called an engineering Trafficking engineering study. It's really has no engineering involved in it, but you know you tell people when when I call the District administrator from the agency to transportation said well what you do is you start driving down the road at 25 and You know you drive this way at 25 and you come back at 30 and you go that way at 35 And you post a speed limit that you think feels the safest and If you do a speed study and you actually put out those traffic counters that we have you're supposed to set the speed at the 85th percentile of what traffic is going and by and large people drive what they feel safe at The 85th percentile on Gattler Road. I don't have a confronted here now, but it's way higher than what's posted there now if it's posted at 40 miles an hour the Speed It's not in that section. That's as bad But as you go further north on the road and the speed limit is lower people are driving faster than that So it's difficult to set a speed limit You know you can't set it below 25 and you've got to set it within what Seems a reasonable speed for the conditions of the road and it's it's very debatable for people who live on the road They feel well, it should be 25 or 30 You have an independent person do the study and they're going to say well it really should be 40 miles an hour That's what it should be You can't change the speed limit based on winter conditions or anything else The road is posted for whatever it's posted at and if you're going faster than that You have an accident that the police can still give you a ticket for driving, you know Speed that's unsafe for the conditions. So you can't really set your speed limit for the worst conditions Well this scenario of Driving the speed limit that you feel safe. Does that take into consideration that there's Kids around that might dart out into the road. Yeah, it really does.  I don't see that you're gonna do a whole lot I don't want people to have expectations here. Maybe we dropped the ball Maybe we're slower than we would like to be and I know we're slower than we'd like to be because this was supposed to be done This year and now the state saying well, we don't have the time with the money to get it done this year We'll do it next year And we took the information and we gave it to the agency of transportation and they programed it for 2019 and they haven't done it so So so if you want to if you want to speak please just come up you have to come up to what I'm trying to say is that that I Don't want people to have false expectations that just because a sign goes up that means people are going to drive more slowly than they are now. That's all Bill thanks I I have been before the select board before for this issue and at that time the speed limit wasn't 25 I think it was 35 up around the hill on to And We were told that there's a few steps that have to be taken first and then we can make this change Drive study Put the strips down and see what the speed is you can only change your x amount within what people are driving etc And those things were done and a new speed limit sign was posted and that change was made and I can't remember exactly how long it took it didn't take that long, but it took a little while And I really appreciate Mark recalling the end of the meeting the way we had because I felt bad that I hadn't looked up in the minutes But I think we all left with a clear understanding that emotion had been put forward that this is what you're going to do And so when I spoke to my neighbors, I repeated that story that yep, they're gonna do it They said they're gonna do it and the sign is gonna come and then it took a while And I said well, you know, we just had a regular sign. This is gonna be a flashing sign So it might take a little longer and so I feel Rug pulled out from under here, what do you want to say that it's been this long? And it is unacceptable and I do want to speak to the point about well people drive the way they drive and It is true. There is fatigue with the sign and that's why you know We made the change to a 25 mile an hour sign Stady sat in a couple of the driveways and people got ticketed and It kicked in that it's 25 here and people's driving behavior did I think improve dramatically in those years Now we're in a situation where people are looking at the amount of young people living right in That little hill spot and walking up to hope Davey and you know, we need to do something more Obviously long-term we hope that we're talking about sidewalks. We're talking about real bike and pedestrian access Safe access on Guptell Road in the short term. We're talking about impactful signage that will impact people's behavior Will it do it for 20 years? Perhaps not if it does it for two years. We might save a life Yeah, I agree and I think the important thing to hear about the accident that happened in that little dip and The people who are here and who walk across exactly at that place young people there's a bus stop there as well You know, we could save a life in a short term And I just wanted just a little bit more about the signage There are proactive communities where Right of it efforts for its sign should have been taking place I think Stoastree is a good example. We've talked about and I think it is in the future plans to have Some kind of paving difference down there or at least discussed But they put up the privately they put up the little signs that say drive like your kid lives here They do different campaigns. I drive Moscow Road Daily sometimes twice a day ongoing struggle there and they do things Sometimes I come and I see a sign that flashes my speed Another time I see a sign that flashes Please drive 25 And they're different signs. I mean maybe the solution when we have something on Stoastree We have something up on Guptal are those portable signs that you put up and you flash at people for a while Then you move them to the other place and flash for a while and you do You know what it takes to impact Because yeah, there is fatigue by the driver They say oh, I'm gonna then later they agree with you that happens But I don't agree that that is something that is inevitable and should be our focus our focus should be on How can we impact them? How can we continue the impact? What signage can we move forward with and You know, I'm really embarrassed to be back again. I assured folks that no, I think they heard us I've seen this done before it's gonna happen and I Think at this point You need to assure folks by going beyond saying really sorry it was scheduled this way You know, maybe it does make sense to wait for that schedule for that particular sign But let's take some action right away In addition or whatever it takes to not be saying we're waiting for the state Bill I agree with a lot of what you're saying I Also agree with a lot of what the town manager has has said One of the things I think that we're not Recognizing there is a national epidemic of distracted driving I don't care if you're driving at 25 miles an hour if a dog Jumps in front and you're texting you're on your cell phone. You're on Whatever you're listening to your radio. You're talking to your wife next to you too many people drive distracted and I get disgusted by it, you know, I see all all-time people and the problem is I don't think you can make every Every road in town a 25 mile per hour road I don't think that's that that's a legitimate thing. I think there needs to be some policing I do agree that there needs to be some action, but I think we were probably assured by the AOT that you know the project was going to happen this year I just don't think it happened and I wasn't on the board last last year So I I can't say I was one of those people that that hurt you, but I do hear That something needs to take place. I also as a response beyond very kind of responsible I think Jane's idea was kind of a good one to find To see if we could pay in advance and be reimbursed to get things going maybe a little faster Then it would happen otherwise, but I do think as Bill Sheplick said people drive to what they do and I don't even know if you make the speed limit 25 miles per hour I think you're still going to see people driving fast I think you're going to see people just driving distracted and people drive distracted That's when the kids are going to be hit That's when adults are going to be hit and that's when the pets are going to be hit But a lot of us have to take in some personal responsibility is maybe the kids should be playing in the backyard You should have electric fencing for your pets so your pets don't run out on the road You know, it's all personal some of its personal responsibility as well I just wanted to let you know since you weren't here at the time that In light of all those things our original request was can we put up some speed bumps in a couple of different areas? We were anticipating with the construction that we'd have that much more traffic up a couple of road And we were asking about how can we get speed bumps put in can we put in drag-or-calls? temporary ones etc and Those suggestions are still there Maple Street is a speed bump at this point Bill can I ask a question back to a comment you made earlier about the stop sign? And I'm assuming that's the one up in the center that when Can you talk about that conversation is that is does the state have to approve any stop sign? Or can we at any point say we believe a stop sign so like for example, I was just looking at a map that That's a brook road has a number of homes on it. It's in the dip and Do we have the right is this I'm just trying to understand what any solution might possibly be and I understand that last time We discussed speed bumps or not solutions that maybe we could even consider But do we have the the right as a select board to put in a stop sign at for example that's a brook road Could we do that? I'm just trying to understand What are our limitations to try to curb? Speeding in that area. Yeah, I think you could put a stop sign if that's your code when I commented about the stop sign before it was the Three-way intersection right up to a road at the triangle There was some talk about putting three stop signs there that Seems not warranted in our conversation with the state whether can you I don't know it's It's a it's a through road. There's this Is there a stop or a yield coming down from Maple Street like that That's a stop stop. There's a stop there But it's the people coming down gubbled from the post office and hit Maple Street at 45 They're on two wheels And they hit that corner so fast You got kids that are walking or even runners or pedestrians not even kids I mean, hopefully the kids are going up the bike on them with traffic But people that are walking against traffic that are in danger because it's kind of a blind corner there I understand and and putting a stop sign on A road that is a is a through road is typically not something that that's done It's just that's not how roads are designed if they're not intended to be Signed that way You know you must see it all the time you come down You know in flats from Ripley Road and you get to show me ancient. There's a stop sign. It's shown ancient but I Mean people Most of them yield I saw a woman the other day breaks through a never go right for great so every day but You know so I again I'm not going to apologize because we we did what we said we were going to do we submitted all the information to the trans and They said that we're going to do the project and they haven't done it yet So I feel badly it hasn't been done if you I'll investigate whether we can buy that sign And put it in and then get reimbursed if we can We'll try to do that But I think that Bill had an interesting idea Looking into some signs that could be moved around that So in addition to the flashing one it tells you your speed Whether it's an alert thing, you know Children playing in road or you know, whatever Yeah, the village the village that could be used on show street, too I mean they could be using a variety of places in the village used to have a there was a trailer that had one of these speed limit signs on it and It was moved around various locations in the village until one night I Mr. Fishman A lot of things have changed in the last 40 years when it was 40 miles an hour and It was one house where Chris is I was the only tenant in my house Tanglewoods And Tanglewoods were high-end low-volume kind of quiet restaurants And now When you turn on to Gupta Road You have a golf course with steady traffic going in and out all day long You have the Zen barn that has a yoga studio with people coming in from early in the morning And then people coming from music and and dinner at night then Next to Steve Gupta's house he has a workshop with the Winner of the milk Mini milk ball trophy and their crew with their big vehicles and trucks and people coming in there all the time Then you go across the bridge and crispy ends and it was one-house ones And now he in his business is streaming along with big trucks coming in and out And their kids grandkids and more kids there and the same thing at my house and at my son's house beyond The density there is not 40 mile an hour density I see on root 100 their places where it's 30 miles an hour where there are fewer Homes and businesses than we have on that beginning part of Gupta Road And I submit that one of the problems up in Waterbury Center is The speed at the beginning of Gupta Road and when people are driving 40 miles an hour they figure They can get a ticket if they stay under 50 and That's how they're driving The coming down that road at speed then you all of a sudden you come up on very quickly 3025 and it's done and then It's going too fast all the way through and I think it's slowing that traffic down to what it should be at the beginning Would be very helpful. There's another factor at the beginning of the road I read that speed test that the trans did and they said yeah We went around 40 miles an hour and we made it I That was quite a thrilling description, but I I look really close to Zenberg. I Would like to walk there, but even in broad daylight. It's scary You can there is not room for one vehicle and then having another vehicle coming next to it the other way and The bike or a person or anything else on that road That road is so narrow. It's set the bridges It's very very narrow and there's something about the way the railings that constructed the cement footings with them coming further So vehicles coming together They're really close depending on the size of the vehicle a truck and and a pickup truck coming here at the same time You can't be anywhere near walking on that bridge and one of the other things that's changed these current years is This whole health stuff for people are walking. They're hiking On those studies is as you described it Bill they're saying okay, yeah drive your power one way Turn around and come back the other the concern for me is You're driving one way and there's a car coming the other way There should be a very slow speed as you get over that bridge one of the problems coming from Water center towards that bridge is when you get over the bridge the road rises and Zenfarn has a blind driveway Right there where they get deliveries and sometimes it's a big truck there Which makes it even more blind because the truck is right at the end There should be something about being not just saying narrow bridge but having a speed limit there because the speed limits Make it so the people think about what find they're going to get whether there's there's a flashing sign or not If it's a 25 and you go 40 over that bridge, that's a ticket that no one wants. Well, I appreciate all of your comments Mr. Fishman and and You know, I think that if the slight word wants to have speed limits other than what are there now that you ought to authorize me to pay a traffic engineer to come and do a study because I'm not trying to punt on this but I've got the handbook in my file cabinet in my office About how you set speed limits And if you're on a road And you've seen it all the time if the speed limits 50 miles an hour and there's a shot curve ahead They put an orange sign up with black layering on it that says 40, which is an advisory speed sign You can't write a ticket on it It just kind of warns the public that this is a little bit out of the ordinary for what you've been doing You should sort out the book says you don't change the speed limit for that kind of circumstance You don't change the speed limit for an hour bridge. So if you want something other than what's there now I have no right of authorship, but if I follow the instructions, I'm a town manager I'm not a speed engineer if I follow the instructions The speed limits that I'm going to recommend what's there now I drive that road every day as well If I see a truck coming over the bridge near Chris's house I slow down as I come down by where Champney used to live to let that bridge come up that truck come across the bridge First I get it. I drive that road a couple of times every single day. So the speed limits I believe are the speed limits That will be set if somebody like me interprets The law book that I have to do it if you want somebody else Yeah, somebody else and maybe we pay him a premium and tell him what we want Well, I know I drive the stone almost every day and they're timed on Route 100 coming into stone with the speed limit is 30 and there's It's not in the lower village. It's just There's just nothing there Nothing like the density that we have here. So it's a part of that Manual that engineering believe you take driveways and things like that But, you know, it depends on where you are on route 100 You know the state the state sets the speed limit on Almost every place that's where it's the state high You know, we have tried it's hard to come up the hill from From the mobile station and you go up And the speed limit gets faster as you approach Ben and Jerry's and then it gets, you know Faster again after you get past couple of You've asked well, can you make the speed limit stay 35 until you get past couple of Oh, no, it's not wanted. You can't do that It is what it is. So can I I'm not gonna argue with you I'm just telling the board that the way that I interpret the law the speed limits that are there now are Reasonable speed limits from what you can set if you want it to be slower different You're gonna have to get somebody besides me to do it Well, I think that one that as I was saying about what the speed you come into the road on the speed limit is 40 on route 100 with wider lanes with with shoulders We have no shoulders on the section of the road And the speed limit is four. It just needs to be whatever the next notches down from that and now we're saying that these extreme curves and In other situations where there's no shoulder and there's lots of people coming in Maybe we need to get it, you know get it down to 35 Any idea what the last study was done, Bill probably no idea Yeah, and that's what I'm saying Well, I'm just wondering, you know, this isn't an isolated area We've all talked tonight about other areas the other day on the island flats I was headed up to one of my projects. I had a CDL.  I Couldn't even get a plate number.  He said I don't know he said he come out of Perry Hill turned by Mark Davis's on two wheels And you're right. There's people running up and down that road walking all the time and that's why I said if you could take the law into your own hands You know, you might be able to curb some of this but to Bill's point the speed limits are set. There probably are Fairly reasonable speed limits. I'd like to seek up the road be 35 miles an hour myself Ideally But the people You're going to have people that abide by those rules But you're also going to have just as many that don't abide by it and we spoke to a few of that You know a few of those issues tonight No, why? So I came to you guys probably I don't know five years ago or so whenever that study was done but Just a couple points I want to make are that one things have changed you since then to You know the issue has just gotten worse That initial test obviously if you look at the regulations you look at how it's executed is highly subjective So somebody else could be in your same shoes and have a very different result feeling safe at Fort Evers You know someone else could be driving based on their style and their perception awareness of what's going on around them Could not feel safe at all important. So it's a very very subjective thing so I Think that easily This board has a lot of power to make a decision here to lower the speed limit You know on the one hand we have a totally different issue further up the road That's an issue of enforcement people not following the laws But here we have an issue on the first part of gupto where we have a speed limit that we're saying is really not safe If people are driving the board has no power to change the speed limit unless they have a traffic and engineering study That tells them what they should change it to so the board cannot make a motion tonight to change the speed Now that's what I just told them if you if you want to change the speed limit hire somebody to do a study I'm not an expert. I'm not a professional. I did the best that I could I'm not going to go out there and say well Things have changed I'm going to do the same driving that I did before and if it feels safe to me I'm going to put down the number and I think if you drive for you on that section. It's a reasonable speed It's the people that are going 50. That's the problem. It's not the 40 mile an hour speed limit That's the problem. It's people don't obey the limit Bill I just I just think I disagree that 40 So if you're driving a big like Chris said those guys that drive their trucks to their CDL drivers You're going 40 miles an hour right through that stretch of gupto. I don't think that's safe I think they should be going to me 35 is the upper end of that and I think the reality of You know study back when I came before I looked up at all the regulations the studies when you lower speed limits people drive slower You always have your outliers. That's a different thing to deal with that's an enforcement issue. That's all his other methods They're not going to stop. They're not going to slow down no matter what speed limit slow people down They're gonna slow the big trucks down. They're gonna slow most people down. They're 35 Okay, I'm gonna try to at least keep slower than I was before at 40. Oh, I would slow down myself sometimes I'm going 40 on there. I realize you know what? I'm just used to that and just slow myself down. I also when I looked at those regulations last time I came It said that you the the select board could motion to lower the speed limit down to 35 and below that was required the engineering study, so I guess I'm That was my and I reached out to VTrans and all that so my understanding is that 35 you can you know, but beyond that yet So I guess I've just asked you guys to look into whether you can or what it would take to lower the speed limit initially You know in that first stretch of gupto In other question me is there you know because We didn't pay you did the engineering study last time Who is authorized to do this in engineering study? Is it is there any particular reason why You did it or there are other people that are allowed to do it What's the rhyme reason for how that gets done in terms of who does it? Well, I just did it as part of my my job No, we have any any idea What something like that might cause or nothing like that The other question I had I Know a while just a couple weeks ago There was some conversation Going around a little bit about the state police and you know, where are they? We don't see them at all Maybe you could talk to them a little bit more about perhaps being on that section In gupto there Lord if it's possible, maybe you should invite them to come to me But I mean they they submit reports their writing tickets And you know, I see them They still have in the meetings up at the fire station or they did last month So the state police are having By weekly right Yes, over here at the fire station and They're willing to that's why they go there to listen to people's concerns and you're more welcome to pop in there on a Wednesday night typically Six o'clock, isn't it Gary six thirty six thirty I haven't made it to one recently there I've been wanting to but for whatever reason just been too tied up. I've been to a few of them already So, I mean I would start there too as well. I mean go to them and explain to them what you've explained to us tonight and maybe they'll They'll start visiting that section of town a little bit more before we go too far down the road of You know, I need clarity and understanding as a select port What our options aren't any situation so that the idea of a test I Don't think makes sense unless we can actually if the test is gonna come back and say You can't do anything that I'm concerned about that spend so I need to understand I'd like to review the previous test. I'd like to see what our options were at that time I do agree. I would support a lowering of the speed of just the 40 mile an hour zone of 35 I think the more we can do is a select board to slow that road down the less likely people are to use it as a pass-through My other comment is if we do have the ability to put in stop signs I think when towns grow they all of a sudden have to start to decide how to control traffic and speed and Safety and it starts with stop signs and then you turn to to traffic lights and Guptell Road is an example of the progression I would be if we have the option to put up stop signs to basically Surround the center to slow the traffic through that zone I would be a proponent of putting a stop sign either at Apple Hill Road or Thatcher Brook Road And I'd also be a proponent of putting a stop sign at Loomis Hill and I think Those are options that we can do that basically a stop sign to me is even better than a speed limit It stops traffic and then they have to restart it reset your brain in terms of what speed am I going to go? What speed is it between this and the next stop? So when you say a stop sign at Thatcher Brook, I mean a three-way stop Is it Thatcher Brook, what's the one? Thatcher Brook's right, right, you're in your face, it'll stand You're talking about stopping traffic on Guptell Road. I am. You think you hear treatment tonight? Well, you say no, I would like to know why that isn't an option. Okay I think you've got to understand what people want to be able to have reasonable and understandable rules and signage. I Don't know anywhere where you've got a through road that you're going to stop somebody to make them stop for Thatcher Brook Road, the private road that has eight houses on it? I think his example is what What power do you have to put stop signs where? He's asking the question. Well, I don't know, but I don't know exactly I would agree with Bill. That's not a reasonable place for a stop sign because through street I don't disagree with me to do something. If it was a cross-intersection, I think it would actually be a problem But typically you put a stop sign on the leg of the road that has the lowest amount of traffic And if they're if they're fairly equal, then you put four-way stops but you know at Like an hour and a half She'll street or high street and and so street it goes straight this goes straight across to Where the way you see what the court is it that's straight across right So, I mean you don't put a stop sign on slow street to stop that traffic It's just it's not done if you have if you have a place like Rule one away the mountain road and room 100. Well, that's pretty even traffic So you put a three-way stop there, but there's a standard for a traffic and engineers They're going to do traffic counts and if the stop sign is warranted They're going to put a stop sign that stops the less amount of traffic to keep traffic flowing and that's that's just standard Engineering and I think you'd be hard-pressed And I would be fearful that if you put a stop sign On Guttel Road at that should work playing or whatever the name of that is that You know a judge would say there's no reason for a stop sign Well, I think you have a room full here people screaming at us.  I would say a more reasonable area would be Guttel and Maple Generating a three-way stop there Right on that at the Y intersection right there with Danny Greenless, isn't there? Yeah, right at Danny Green That's the one you were talking about just to stop there on Maple right there There's a stop at hollow intersection Howard Sorry, I just can say there's two stop signs at hollow and Howard I've lived there for 30 years and a few years ago a second stop sign was put in at the corner of Howard and hollow up and and Hollowed by the Grange all there because there was I think there was an accident people were They were ignoring it. They were going through With you the problem is the corner of Maple Yeah, and Guptel Road And maybe it's also reinforced by the geometry of them the very wide angle turn This is really wide so you can really speed right around There's no stop sign To the post office so basically what you're going to do you're going to stop that Howard or the shop the dip you're gonna stop there and they got to go 150 yards down the road stop again at the Corner of Guptel and maybe I'm trying to ascertain. There's no stop sign in now I know this is the only stop sign is the limits Maple to Guptel Right coming down right coming down Maple and you get to the end of able to hit that stop sign The problem is the people coming from the post office heading north and then hit Maple Street They don't have a stop so they can either go straight To our tower to have or or hollow road or they can hit the right wall maple and half the time They're doing 4550 when they hit maple and they hit that corner and they're squealing and it's just it's alarming I mean, but again, I understand bill. You're just what you're saying No, I'm not control driving habits. I don't stand and I guess if you put a stop sign there I'm not opposed to putting a stop sign there. I don't think it's a The right thing to do but the people if the people who are driving 45 If you're right, and they drive 45 come out of the post office. It's 25 now Are they gonna stop for that stop sign? Yeah, so but the best thing that's happened to us in the last month is that the fact that the Covert that was put in hasn't been paid It's all washed out right now, so they're slowing down to 15 I mean, that's permanent I mean the thing is is that there's the element of people coming over the brow from the post office that are speeding I mean and again, I understand you can't change driving habits It's also the people that hit the maple Street stop sign and they pull off the maple Street, and they just got it We can go into portable speed bumps, too That would be great. I mean, that was my next question Permanent speed bump on that road for winter maintenance is very difficult Maybe we can get portable speed bump somewhere Because you have less foot traffic in the winter time on the road less bikes less pedestrians But also I mean that was one of my questions is how how did it come to we got speed bumps on? Randall Street just a curiosity like where did the funny come for that? Well, that was a village decision, but there's this there's a speed table on Butler Street as well Yeah, and those are the applications Residential streets where you know, it's it's a short distance and it's Safe Again the other day I was coming down I was going up Ripley Road just past Bill's house Yeah, right there. There's a short section of pavement where Howard Ripley used to live Over the hill come five-star with a pickup truck with a long Quite long trailer.  Wow. I Couldn't look I thought I was I I'm trying to do my father. I'm sorry. I don't look I have contact with state police We've had this the speed car out on our front lawn two years ago one thing I did find this was gonna speak to Bill is that people will slow down for it and others will speed up for it See how fast they're going like there's some Animals that are like we're gonna just see how fast we get this thing going because they know there's no repercussion from it There's no camera taking a picture yet flashes a little radar ball at you But there's no it's not taking a picture of me so they know so they're like, let's see how fast we get it going And then there's other people that are like, wow, I didn't see that all of a sudden you see the state police Reflective strip on it and it slows you down, but and it's coming again in a week I'm gonna put it on the on the lawn again Just and what it does is it calculates the highest volume speeding at which times and then they're supposed to send patrols at that time but what we're finding is that Highest volume speeding is typically between 5 30 a.m. And 7 30 a.m. And then 4 to 6 and that's when we're not seeing the troopers We're seeing the troopers at 9 a.m. Yeah, 10 a.m. And we're seeing maybe 2 30 3 o'clock in the afternoon Not doing a commuter time with it. You're right So That's what you guys go ahead and I also agree with no I think you know if we did 35 miles an hour from the end it got to let a hundred it'll slow people down as they're coming up through I mean, it's just a way to maybe slow down another five miles an hour So if they're doing 50 now, they'll do 40 five as opposed to, you know All I want to say is that I've done some work and then I've been on a regional planning commission I've done some work with these regulations. They're intentionally vague to empower the local Government to make some decisions are the best thing for their town. That's why we have rules They're kind of big like this in terms of the speed limit reduction If bill drove that road and said, you know what? Feels good at 40, but you know it feels a little better at 35 Then you guys could sit here and say we'll move it down at 35 If you guys and there's no nothing to say that bill has to be the one to do the engineering study or the study It's an engineering study or a study is specifically the language. I believe I'm pretty sure based on just reading again the regulations The five of you could or any one of you could drive down the road Just like bill did and say, you know what? I feel safest at 30 35 And the number one thing it says in the regulations is public safety first You've heard now from all the neighbors. I've got a petition last time from every single neighbor pretty much on Gupto road Now you've got half the half Gupto road telling you even Chris who hates regulations telling you 35 miles an hour feel safer, you know, it just seems to me that this is Something that this body can't accomplish without going through the engineering study in the state You know, we have one main person who's For some reason there's nothing against it because he feels it saves drive 40 miles an hour But it just feels to me like this should not be an issue And it's an easy thing to do We're not asking you guys to solve that texting while driving problem or distracted driving problem Those are things we can't solve but we can do little things to make it Just a little bit safer and set the intention for people coming down, you know, we get a lot of visitors tourists coming through They have no idea what's going on, you know, they're trying to do us right if it's for either in drive 40 45 Well, maybe it's a study with done in a truck like my big one Fully loaded. Yeah, you have a different perspective. Absolutely. I mean get a few of you get I mean I'll volunteer to do the study it That's my request to you is to you know revisit that And try to accomplish what the whole road is asking for it. Yeah Saving speed limits the guide for the line panels and So no, you can't just set a speed limit at 35 Should the local ordinance be approved? Can a single speed limit for example 35 miles an hour be established for all roads in the town? No, an engineering study would have to be done To determine the limit on each row. What's wrong with installing a few signs where they are needed For whatever good they can do without enforcement. This doesn't conform to the law. We'll bring disrespect enforcement officer Would be embarrassed trying to prove the case in court. When is a traffic engineering study required? To lower or raise existing speed limits the study is not required to initially establish a 50 mile an hour zone So if you want about 50 miles an hour, you don't need to do a study What if the select board receives a petition from a significant number of residents demanding a speed limit change in a certain area? The law states the speed limit must be based on an engineering and traffic study Petition may result in the survey But the decision to establish a speed limit must be based on the results of the study not on the opinions of the petitioners Should the speed limit be set five or ten miles an hour below what the investigation indicates to make up for a tolerance difference? Allowed by enforcement officers. No the statute does not provide for tolerance a speed limit set too low is not realistic And will not command the respect of mortars. So you can read it any way you want but You can do a study and You know, it's supposed to be a non an unbiased study not done by some of you wants the most But what I am saying is that I Question the validity of the study that was done I think it was based on your own opinion of your driving that road which I respect But I don't think it reflects the actual reality of the road the first consideration I've had this same exact thing up. I was just reading safety public safety is the first consideration you should take when recommending a a speed limit Your your study the traffic engineering study, which you can do we can do as the select board at least could certainly do Should consider surrounding features and other factors Absolutely If you make you have the information you need to make a reasonable judgment and assigning a speed limit that is reasonable and safe What we're trying to put out there is that? 40 miles an hour is not reasonable and safe I know you determined that it was not but I'm just I'm telling you that For for high-volume roads, it says monitor the speeds at which traffic which vehicles are traveling Do this by performing spots to speed study and recording the speeds And the data field sheet this consists of monitoring a minimum of 100 vehicles and identifying the speed under which most And it says 85 percent of the vehicles are traveling Experiences shown a speed limit posted near that limit is safe and reasonable So if you went out there and you did the study, it's going to be higher than what it is now But that doesn't take into the context that as a community we're trying to actually lower the speed limit overall So I think what we're asking is to be part of that effort. Let's try to calm the traffic together There's there's several things tonight that came up that are pretty low hanging fruit that we can do To try to lower the speed limit Come and try it because one thing it's but lowering the speed is different I'm not opposed to lowering the speed limit all I'm telling you is How it needs to be done and it needs to have a study and what I volunteered already was don't have me do it I'm not saying that because what I did before it was a long time ago Maybe it would be different now Well, that's why I'm saying is don't have me or you do it hire somebody to do it We come around to the fact that we probably have somebody else do it do a traffic That's why I asked how long it was because it may be a difference in the amount of people that are now living there And I think the examples of just even the things at the beginning of The road also it's true, you know, there's a lot going on at the beginning of come over that wasn't happening 10 years ago So could we ask you to at least I don't want to make a decision on Going forward with an engineering study until we have some sort of framework on how much an engineering study I don't think this is going to be a cheap thing. I I'm guessing it's going to be between 10 and $20,000 I'm not saying that it's not worth it But I think we should at least have the facts before Yeah, we should and take it up in another me and table it for another meeting again We can't make any or shouldn't make any decisions tonight I think probably looking into what it would cost and maybe some of these other smaller solutions would at least Go ahead there young lady, and then we're gonna wrap it up because we got a long night ahead of us So one thing I'd like to mention is earlier What if you guys said oh like if we install flushing speed limits at the sign or like something not everyone's going to Like follow that and yeah like duh like there's the rule followers and the rules breakers My brother's a rule breaker. I'm a rule file But there's nothing there's nothing more that I've ever learned from my family and from my school is Doing something is better than nothing And I feel like that something is installing something whether that's a flashing speed limits sign performing a study it's doing something and We should do something before someone gets hurt and We all have fixed mindsets, and so I think Like you said it will be a very expensive project if we decide to go forward I was wondering like if there's one way like I know you guys have a budget if we as a community could like fundraise or like Support you guys and support the town in moving this forward because we do really really want it It's something like if oh if money is the problem like if it's too expensive then I feel like we can fundraise and stuff Yeah, good point. Thanks good point Okay, well we thank you all for coming in tonight, and I think we've got Your message embedded in our backside of our bridges tonight And hopefully we can start to make some change hopefully It's a people to slow down So what Steve would have bill get some estimates for our next meeting Do we need to make a motion for the request of bill to go to be trans for the reimbursement idea? I'd like to I'd like to make a motion tonight that sets the course for some action Second second, right? I'll make a motion for bill to contact v. Trans to see about at a minimum Allowing us to move forward with the flashing speed sign for later reimbursement for v. Trans because of their timing Second that any further discussion All those in favor say aye. Aye One other thing I mean the traffic study that maybe you would get that you would get some estimates for I guess I'd like to ideally also include a look at Stop sign locations in this discussion of one at Maple Street. Maybe some recommendations could be made in that study to Use experience already Thank you Be safe out there Thank you. Well, we burned up the clock a little So I guess we'll go on to some manager's items from here and First thing on that is the third quarter budget report. This is Says currently a period and at the top This probably includes one week beyond third quarter It's Again best practices. We should do this at least quarterly The last one we did was for the second quarter There's not really too much new to report here We're through three quarters of the year As I've told you many times in the past the revenues are skewed to the back end of the year, so It shows that we've Actually collected more in revenue than The calendar says we should It's at seventy five six percent, but that's assuming that all of the Taxes will be collected Just looking at the expenditures We were right on target. We would be at seventy five percent Look over page three the general government budget is at seventy five point five eight Public safety lags a little bit because we pay the state quarterly we've only paid half Three hundred and sixty five Bill can I ask you real quick on page two the can you remind us what the general rack program donation was the fifty two fifty at the top? Just a number of businesses Donations to the recreation program in exchange for like I think the best western and fear-filled in both made a donation We put their name on the back of the t-shirts that the staff I can get a list for you. No, I was just wondering what that was There's just general donations for the recreation programs There may feel mental this year. I can ask him We do get some money from forward who does the winterfest Trying over to page four twelve five apartment We're letting here Guys here you can talk about this We're through seventy five percent here. We spent forty five percent of the budget Gary often waits until leaving the year to purchase new equipment because He likes to see what's happening with the rest of the budget And making sure that there's no unexpected things that Come up So in the new equipment line, we've only spent about eight percent when we should be at seventy five percent year also the principal on the debt is Not not been paid yet. So That was at sixty five which will be a couple of weeks And see up at the top We've had a pretty good year so far with regard to fire pay The top line the twenty six thousand that gets paid out at the end of the year and pretty much gets paid out Almost all that would be paid and then the sixty two thousand dollars is for calls and Through three quarters of the year where we spent fifty percent of that Gary may not have submitted the quarter payment request yet though. So But from what I have seen so far It can change Kind of good on on the power for coming in Do you have any feeling on why I think a lot of it has to do with You can correct me if I'm wrong, but And maybe it's just because I'm not sitting above the apparatus bay and fire station like I used to be but When we were there the first couple years Like you were going out three or four times a day for the calls on the interstate And I think that has dropped Interstate calls has dropped a lot But overall even because I track interstate calls versus other calls Even other call volume has dropped the our high call Volume was probably five or six years ago, and it was 343 calls in a year Right now we're in the 120s if we hit 150 Thereabouts I'd be Surprised if we went too far over unless we have a big uptick and in quite honestly I don't know why everybody around us their call volume is skyrocketing stoves out of control if you were to ask them They were at a record number Two or three months ago. I don't know why We have a drop in call volume. How was it last year? It was down last year from the previous year. We have other than trending down correct other than Three years ago. I think our call volume was identical to the previous year Without having the books in front of me. I wasn't really prepared to answer all these questions, but it's no big deal But our call volume has come down So really the only thing that saves you on is payroll because everything else is established so You know unless people burning real wood when the oil prices drop and they can turn on propane and yeah Chimney fires really hasn't changed much in ten years. We really have not and we go to Three maybe four a year But that's it And there's a couple that we know we're going to every year Could be more updated homes, you know Yeah, also we also have gone to more carbon monoxide calls and what we used to go to because homes are buttoned up so much tighter So and and you know, it's good that calls it down But if they're said I'm like every other department in the municipality the fire department's payroll is a small percentage of its total budget We were a Professional fire department while we wouldn't have enough for one person correct, you know and You know listening about the purchasing it builds spot-on You know if if I were to spend Proportionately 50% of my budget say new equipment line item halfway through the year That's a big chunk of money and then 75% by now Didn't something happens? We don't have the money to replace some of that equipment so Some some of the bigger items we we do wait until further into the year just in case But I can tell you I've done some projections as I was sitting there bills Recently signed off on some purchase orders The new equipment line item is going to come out much right on tap So it's not a matter of hey, we don't need it and all of a sudden we're spending it It's it's for me. It's a matter of weighing what our risks are So I see on the news the other night that Vermont got I think half a million dollars around They got a substantial grant given to him that would go towards fire departments and Utilization of that money would go towards Equipment like uniforms Airpacks stuff like that. Are you gonna? So are we gonna see any of that? No, and in quite honest it is because This is the double-edged sword. We're fairly well off here in Waterbury now We can sit here and talk about budgets and the economy in Waterbury, but a lot of those grants are kind of Leaning towards the towns that have virtually no money and there's still departments in Vermont that have old milk trucks for tank trucks that have You know pickup trucks that are running big pumps on them and then it's not what they're designed for so that those grants are usually kind of Although they can't come out and say you can't get this we can apply but when when you're weighing everything Us compared to a really small department that has two trucks and one of them is an old milk truck with Crappy breaks we're down on the list Yeah, my old job. We did a ton of Financing grants for small Volunteer fire departments, you know easing from building a fire station to equipment and fire trucks That was just in as Gary was saying and some of these small fire departments boy They're operating on a wing and a prayer You know, it's usually based upon me and income as to What what towns will qualify and we're usually up on that level? I suspect we've been there before too, right? Oh, there's no questions ago. There is no question So I'm moving on to page five recommendation The pool is pretty much done for the year. We've spent 91% of our budget. We do have winter Lessons we have an arrangement with first and fitness over a million and we still are having lifeguards Roll the air running swimming lessons in the lake. So This expense will go up a little bit in terms of the payroll. There's income that comes along with that as well But in essence we're we're through the pool season We're through the summer recreation program and spent a little bit more than we budgeted but we took in significantly more You can see that on the first page if you don't look at the income level. So I think we Think we're about The record this ration on page six I do it It is what it is. I didn't do a very good job in terms of budgeting for the recreation director's position He's a fine employee. This was the first full year of Nick being here I know what his hour rate is. I don't apply that by Hours and then added some for overtime. He's worked considerably more over time than I had anticipated I told him it's been okay so far But even if we eliminated all overtime from the budget for the rest of the year That line item is going to push up toward 50,000 at the top top line there and I'll have to reassess with him What we can do I can't make him a salary employee there's new US Department of Labor Rules about who can be salary employees and He has supervisory Responsibilities he supervises the rest of the recreation staff, but it's mostly part-time staff and I'm pretty certain I can't make that a salary position If you mainly sell a position, you know, and he's going to be working 50 hours. He's not going to do it for $43,000 a year here. So one way or the other I was awful on that calculation And now I'll try to make sure that we budget for really next year. Is this Naivar? Is it possible? He said the red program had taken in 30,000 euros more than anticipated Can that be used for I think we're going to be okay There's some other issues that I haven't gotten to yet That one particular line item just telling you And then in the parks department we're right on track for where we should be I may move some of the I don't know where we'll end up with grounds maintenance, but We spent I told you that we spent a lot more on the Lights out here than we had anticipated. We didn't get that bullwack grant We need to change out the lights and then when the electrician came to change up the lights and GMP came in And it was like, well, they were way under cover and we had to spend considerably there. So I'll I'll Flesh that out before the end of the season and then the planning department. No problems there. We're going to track That management. We're probably going to be a little bit over budget We had a little bit more tax-anticipation Disappearance that's paid for now Having more Special articles Almost all of those in December By the end of the year that will be fully paid Department on page nine Receives almost all of our revenue so far in the highway department Would probably be a little bit above what we expected because That line item about six lines from the top highway labor of materials We'll get some revenue, but it's interdepartmental. So it's going to get paid from, you know, the parks department into the highway department So it's not really a benefit to the tax payers. It just is a more accurate reflection of where expenses On the highway budget we're right at 75% right now I expect save any real unusual happenings and Weather between now and the end of the year We're going to probably come in pretty close to budget and the library is Going on track as well. So the three operating funds We are about Wait on the 75% level In general, so there's nothing really Don't see the contractors line on highway departments significantly over just That's over mark right now because there's a misposting That includes that line right now includes $10,000 plus I think $10,400 for two culverts that were placed on in this bill and that should be out of Fund Is the same budget way down because we haven't So this is just a Kind of a summary of the capital funds In the in the black fog are the budgeted numbers the blue font is my projections for this year So you can see the paving funds started 2018 with a negative $41,190 fund balance we budgeted to have $370,000 come in we thought we were going to spend 628,465 and if we had done that if everything hit that on the head We would have ended the year with negative two ninety nine six fifty five in the paving fund Revenues we're going to be right on target We're going to do everything we said we were going to do in the painting budget, but it's gonna cost us less so We're going to have a smaller deficit in that fund By about $80,000 And then the same carries across for all of these CIP funds The critical number is if you go to the right hand column When we started this year, we expected that One two three five Capital funds combined would end the year with a thirty thousand five hundred and thirty seven dollars balance So we're going to be just above water in these funds and you can see the budget was significant deficit in the paving fund a less deficit but still significant in the infrastructure fund and then small surplus in the vehicle fund healthy surplus in the fire vehicle fund and then a very modest surplus in the recreation program The recreation fund there shows you What I just talked about on that with the lights We started the year with two hundred twenty two hundred dollar fund balance We thought we'd get $80,000 in revenue which included a fifty thousand dollar grant. We didn't get the grant So our revenues are going to be thirty thousand five hundred We thought with the grant we were going to spend six seventy six thousand. We didn't get that grant We should have only spent like forty six thousand, but we had to spend sixty two thousand because of Those issues that we had So the fund balance in fund seventy five right now projects out to twenty five four twenty eight Back to what you asked a minute ago chain. I'm going to look at the operating budget for the recreation department. I may move some of the expenses for that project for the operating fund because Direct there's the CIP we're supposed to pay for the capital improvement maintenance and ongoing Should be an operating expense so that fund balance there may actually come up a little bit, but all the same it was highly anticipated But it's looking right now instead of ending the year with thirty thousand five hundred thirty seven dollars in the combined fund balance for the CIP funds That we're going to have about two hundred twenty thousand now that that could go up or down You know ten or fifteen thousand dollars, but I think that's a fairly accurate representation right now And we still have a significant deficit in the baby fund and the highway infrastructure fund Came up quite a bit The highway infrastructure fund We had scheduled. I think it was a hundred and thirty eight thousand dollars to be spent on a bridge On Guttel road bridge four. That's the Dr. Mario bridge. I talked about that today and Austin construction who's been We've hired to do that job. It's been waiting for some Materials and pirates something to do with the rail system They're not going to get to that bridge this year. So the fact that you know our fund balance is projected to be a hundred and sixty four Thousand dollars higher than it was budgeted to be a hundred and thirty eight thousand dollars of that one sixty four Is just that we didn't do a project that we still have to do so it's not terribly found money But it's the reality right now So with that I'll stop And mark you went out of the room, but I don't know if you heard me on the paving fund We budgeted to spend six hundred twenty eight thousand four hundred sixty five dollars We're going to only spend five forty six six sixty three But we're going to get everything done that we had in the scheduled page. So we have paved Lewis Hill Road from top to bottom now. We have paved East Street and Jane Davis road is scheduled to be paid next week So those are the three major those that we had scheduled to pay and fortunately it cost us less to do those Then we had budgeted. It's hard to Be Wonderful if I could just say well gee where's you've got an extra hundred thousand dollars or whatever it is I guess it's eighty thousand dollars And let's just go pave something else, but it's hard to do that Hey, because you didn't tell the public I'm gonna do it and be You haven't done the prep work on these other roads to get ready But I'm happy to say that Didn't spend less because we did less we did everything that we said we're gonna do any cost us less But we still have a deficit in the day on the on the CIP. What's kind of I Know it's it's a flow that changes yearly based on large expenses, but is there I'm gonna know I've been on the board for a while, but what's the expectation on like kind of a is there a low limit for? CIP fund balance at year-end and You know, what have you seen as the highest and I don't know where where what's like What's that sweet spot in terms of trying to aim for yeah? Well, you know, there's there's been different Philosophies on different boards and as I mentioned before we used to have one CIP fund And it had everything in it. It was fun number 30 and it had highway equipment fire equipment paving infrastructure was all in one fun and Rebecca Ellis and this isn't a slam but Rebecca didn't like that one fun because she said well Sometimes there's more money in the fun than you think that maybe we should have and the board's tempted to spend money So let's let's divide it up and we have five funds now But we still do what we were doing before we've got five funds and one fund has $484,000 and the other fund has negative $300,000 in it and You know, so we're we're still doing what we did before I know that's not an answer to your question mark, but 3537 that we were projecting to end this year with if we had hit everything right on the nose is Probably the lowest it's been in in quite some time probably going back to the the flood Years I don't know that for certain But that's my guess and I can look at that You know we've got a way to Spend some of this more and we can transition to the next item and I'm going to pass this out So this is a two-sided Paper I'm recommending that we hold a special No, Mike When we talked about it the last time it was because we were thinking And kind of gone back and forth a while we could lease it we could do this or that a couple of days after that meeting Gary sent me an email and said We've got a major problem with the pump truck E3 engine three which was purchased in 2000 and You know it's scheduled to go next year and we talked about that a couple of different times you talked about it this year and So He's here, so you can tell you the last I heard Just to do the repairs on this truck that has been taken out of service right now Is in the twenty to thirty thousand dollar range was the last I heard from you right and then So I started preparing to have a special town meeting for that vehicle And then when I got back from Pennsylvania, I was in Pennsylvania for a funeral over the weekend I got an email from Gary this morning saying that the second 2000 truck Also is having difficulties and I said well if we've got to buy a Vehicle now and we've got to have a special town meeting to do it We should put both of them on the list So I'll let Gary explain where we are with the vehicles and then we'll look at the The two versions in the morning And you can make the decision So I'll go back just a little bit so you have some of the back story that the two Engines that were that are slated to be removed from service replaced next year Number of years ago one was in a crash on the interstate it got hit by a tractor trailer probably going too fast and That created a lot of damage. We fixed that and we were Anticipating that that would be the first truck that we would get rid of because we're then talking about separating the two trucks Separating them in terms of not buying correct not buying the same year Correct the village Bob on truck the town Bob on truck we Both entities saved a little bit of money by having them go through the assembly plant one after the other That's really the only savings So we do Monthly maintenance on all of the apparatus at Main Street. It's done on the first Tuesday That means the trucks are started the pumps are run the ladder is run Everything that starts or gets plugged in to electricity is run so that we know that things are operating and This last month they did maintenance at Maple Street And they found that the oil in engine three what we refer to as engine three because Was significantly high which made absolutely no sense and and I'm not a mechanic the level Yes, the the oil level was high on the dips that coming out the engine oil So I'm not a mechanic. I called our mechanic and he's he went over he's been very good and he checked the engine and And pardon my lack of knowledge. I just they start they run him happy it had a seal go and then The cylinder maybe inside the engine is cracked To replace that engine in the engine According to him, huh? Yeah, that part of the engine so was a coolant that got into the oil coolant and diesel fuel Bonehead gasket or something? Okay, what sounds yeah, well some fluid of some sort. That's not oil Well, there was oil. There was radiator fluid and there was diesel fuel all in the one Yes So he initially told me it was how much he thought it would be I went to bill initially without doing any research was going to be about eight thousand dollars and Within a day or so that jumped when he found out what was really wrong with it But even at eight thousand dollars my first statement was not can can we Take this out of service and is there a possibility to buy a truck? How soon do you need a truck because I don't want to spend eight thousand dollars now on the truck that we're going to get Next right or whatever so I found out that it was actually going to be over twenty thousand dollars to fix this Engine doesn't make sense. We're not going to get that Even if that engine was fine when we replace it. So it's foolish money That night I went to a mutual aid meeting. I Was talking to a couple people afterwards from Northfield They said that the vendor that we have bought our last two trucks from has a demo truck that He's willing to sell So I called him up the next day got the information on it. It is similar to what we were designing There's some things that aren't on this truck that we were planning But there are some things that are on it that we weren't planning. So it's kind of a trade-off and I talked to him about it and he said that he would be like anybody else happy to sell it He bought it so that he could show it as well as sell it for somebody that needed it the advantage to that is that We met with them. We identified because it's just a plane truck. There's no shelves. There's no trays in it There's things that have to be added The advantage to that is it's this year's model and it's significantly cheaper I went to build told him about it and Recommend that we purchase that truck He is holding it for us and I have all the numbers that I'll get to in just a minute. He is holding that truck for us Until I call him tomorrow or tonight Because he's got two other departments that want it so although I certainly understand the The town meeting the special town meeting Unfearful if we don't tell him right off that we want this truck He's going to go where the money is and I don't blame it. He's a businessman He has a truck that he wants to sell and he has two other departments in line waiting to buy that truck So Now I run through the numbers if you want me to on what we had planned and where we're at We had planned next year to order two engines identical And We're going to save about twenty five thousand dollars per truck ordering them back to back each truck With the savings is five hundred and twelve thousand four hundred and fifty three dollars With the savings with the savings so that's one million twenty four thousand nine oh six for two trucks With the first engine engine three going down His he does have the truck the MSRP is five hundred and thirty four thousand but He wants to offload it because he's paying for that truck out of his budget and we can get it with all the things That we expect for that truck for four hundred and sixty one thousand three ninety five, so It's about Seventy three thousand dollar savings on That one truck over waiting until next year He talked about the demo truck correct Then our second engine that we moved up to maple Street And the demo truck is just a truck that he's bought Correct it's It has not been to any fires it Has literally he just bought it on a whim thinking maybe somebody would want to buy a truck if I actually took one To them as opposed to taking them photos And the fact that he wants to sell a truck So I Recommendant to build that we get that truck We're going to save a lot of money. It's a truck that will serve waterbury. Just as the other trucks would have that we had planned You know your minor things it's it's a little bit longer our new stations can accommodate that It's a little bit higher than what we had planned, but we can accommodate that because the doors are bigger It has a front suction as opposed to a rear suction meaning Typically we pull up and we either hook into one of the two sides and bring water into the truck or we pull into a long driveway and We put a portable tank behind it and we draft in from the rear this one has a front suction so we just change our process a little bit and truck Can we can put the tank beside it and run the hose out from the front a lot of things that we can just adjust how we operate It's no big deal doesn't doesn't shorten your distance of capability to get to a fire in other words You know what I mean by by having to switch It used to be very rigid and You couldn't but now with the hard suction that's what it's called is very flexible and we can put a portable tank right next to the Typically the passenger door and just put a couple links of hard suction on and bend it right around the corner So it doesn't change the distance in where we can get to it just changes how we would use Portable tanks because if we're gonna use a fire hydrant, we're gonna use a fire hydrant that will not change anything This is really just about More rural firefighting than anything else What's the life expectancy expectancy of these trucks 20 years and we almost hit it The second engine we sent up to Maple Street from Main Street We knew that it had a water leak from the tank to the pump. It was a Leak, but it wasn't an outrageous leak and To fix that you have to take the truck apart pull the tank out Which is a large expense You have to bring to a truck manufacturer Steve Guptel doesn't do it anymore But you literally have to take the top part of the truck apart and pull the tank out fix it financially that's Foolhardy when we're planning on getting rid of it next year to spend thousands of dollars to fix a leak Well now that it's up the Maple Street the bleak has progressed We can't keep putting water in it because there's a reservoir Where that drainage water goes because we don't have the municipal system up there that we do down here so we have a Well if you will Where the water that services that this is what he's meaning is there's not a sewer system correct, so Here at Main Street It goes into the sewer system drain the sewer system up in Maple Street The leak goes down the drain and then it goes into the septic system and we have to pump it out Ground water level is high there It's probably a holding tank. There's a holding tank for that water that goes in right and we have hard again It comes about once a year to take it out, but it's 750 gallons Every week they're going to be coming here on a regular basis Because that's how quickly that water is draining out So and you leave water in it because if you need it right right The engine gets to the sea In that tank and if you have 750 gallons in the tank and the alarm goes off You might have 700 by the time we get to the fire, right? Yeah, I mean if it's if we feel it right now We'll be good through the night and into tomorrow But later tomorrow and over the night the next night. It's going to be pretty much drained out And that one's the same age. It's exact same truck if you looked at them both So it so we're now running a truck that has no water on it So we have to make sure that unless it's going to a hydrant Hyders in area there are some places in the center But not a lot that we have to make sure that a tank truck goes Because that truck is virtually worthless as far as putting water on a fire with no water on And it just doesn't make sense in my mind to fix that truck that one it has to come out of service it's going to be out of service for a couple months and It has value right now because it can go to a hydrant and pump It has value it can go to a body of water and draft and fill another truck It doesn't have value to make an initial attack Unless it has a hydrant right next to it. So if it goes up off Loomis Hill as an example It's going to get there and that tank truck is going to have to be right behind it feeding it water as soon as it gets there Because it has no water on it The next engine is coming from down here that does have water on it. It's a 10-year-old engine. It's running great We're very happy with it But again, we're we're now dealing with two engines that are identical and identical in age and Are very costly to fix So I certainly would would push that we replace the one engine as soon as we can I know you're gonna have a meeting and that's that's your job to figure all that out It's my job to make a recommendation. I Feel we're gonna lose that engine The vendor when I was talking to him. He said, you know, I Have this is worked out. Well, I've already ordered my next demo truck So he has ordered his next demo truck. It's going to be here in June. It takes close to a year to get approval Or to the truck had it made and get in and get here we can cut that time significantly by getting that other demo truck and That town meeting fine, I think Bill's right. It makes sense to do this all at one time And it's gonna be identical to the truck that we're trying to get now It just isn't a model new year newer, but it's gonna look the same So with The new engine which is a little bit more in price the one we're looking at getting is 461 in change The other one is 489 in change So getting both of those trucks would cost the taxpayers 951 thousand forty dollars as opposed to the one million twenty four thousand nine oh six So there's a there's a there's a savings. There's, you know, seventy three thousand dollar savings They can go somewhere But so that's kind of where they're we're at It's it's bad timing, but we also have the mechanism for some good timing It's nothing that anybody could have picked up on we do regular maintenance on all the equipment and One of my officers is the one that actually checked the oil the previous month He said everything was normal. We run the trucks. We run the engines check all the fluids and that was fine And in a month we ended up with a big problem Is there any? Money that could be recouped for this old equipment very little seriously one the engine that we have taken out of service Somebody would have to have the ability to fix that engine It's not worth a lot and the other engine Somebody's gonna have to fix that tank We in fact the vendor that we use we've gotten rid of our last two trucks with him said don't even ask I have no interest in them. It's it's they're not going to sell we might find a Small department that really is desperate and maybe they'll get them both to make one Parts yeah, that's that's really it that there's once it an engine hits 20 years NFPA says get rid of them most departments other than he's really small and still want and we have not made a lot of Money off any of the trucks that we've sold we sold one a number of years ago for a thousand dollars just because the department wanted it Yeah, okay So as I said, I was I was away Last week What I've prepared for you with Carlin's health is is two warnings difference between the front and the back side is that With the two articles talks about the fire trucks and Roadside over The second one just talks about the fire trucks but what I'm understanding now from Gary is that you don't think that He will wait until 12th for us to have a meeting Just sell that truck. I'm fairly confident that he I talked to him tonight to get the hard numbers on the other truck and He said well, I really would like to know because I have two departments that want that truck He goes I want to give it to you. I want to sell it to you guys But he goes I'd have to really sit down and think about my money and my operation and Hold off on it for a month and then is there a 30-day delay after that town meeting so that brings us into no December And I know he won't wait that long And I also wasn't Completely included on the second demo truck Being that till June, right? That was something that he also told me tonight. Yeah But it will be ready in June because he's already ordered that that's correct If we would just put our order in but typically I know when you know the ladder truck the rescue truck before that We Made the decision at town meeting the budget gets passed. We order the truck and then the truck comes Generally the next year. That's right. It's it's close to a year to get a truck through the assembly line and to us So so you have a couple of options. I think To me For the savings that Gary's talking about I think moving it up from town meeting is this worthwhile You're going to get far fewer people at the meeting. There's no question about that The CIP projections this page that I handed out I Know that Together the CIP funds combined are Less than the price of this truck, but the fire of CIP right now has $485,368 in it And I think you said it's 461 395 for the demo truck He's got right now right 461 395 so From us just looking at that one fund there's money in the fire CIP to cover that cost right now and I'm not a lawyer and I think that the laws sometime with regard to Doing what you have to do are a little bit Outdated I know that you know if we had a highway truck breakdown Before winter it's happened before we just we buy a new truck We had a sidewalk file that broke down a couple years ago We bought it in November and we went to the voters the next year We just kind of hold it in the budget and we explained to them what happened. I think that You know, we've got two engines that are down Or one that's down and one that's less than optimal condition and we're coming into the most treacherous time of year talk about chimney fires talked about Accidents We've got a contract with the town of Dexbury. They expect service for that contract. I think we've got to buy that that first truck and and then I Think I would say you might still want to have the town meeting and get authorization to buy The second truck would have to change this morning But I'll just throw that out now The upside of ordering that second truck is Right now it's going to take him a month to Uppfit what needs to be on it if we Tell them that we want that second truck it will come here ready to go In June as opposed to it getting here in June and then he's got to put the additional stuff on like we're doing with the current demo truck so but I I think that It would be my recommendation for that second truck. I Would tell them we're going to buy the first demo truck now. Yes get it coming here It's going to take a little while for you to put this stuff on Right He's totally on board with that Because it's not here yet. It's not he's not paying on it yet. He understands that we may want it But we've got time for that because It's not too far into the process in Florida where if we go to this special town meeting and Then we even wait the amount of time that we need to wait There's still time to add those things in because it literally is bare bones There's no class a foam on it. There's no trays. There's no shelving in it. There's no hose that Has to come with a truck that's being sold as a brand-new truck no ladders, but all those things can be done After the the period that we have to wait for that second truck So that concerns me Not at all really other than we're saving money by buying it I can't believe the taxpayers are going to be too upset about saving money. I can't speak for all of them I'm sure there's somebody that would be upset But as far as the the other one to replace Having Been the fire chief when we had two trucks within a couple weeks crashed on the interstate Scares me that we're not going to have fire protection in this community if we lose that one engine that's in Main Street So bill I'd like to ask you first Looking at your Current projected fund balances here all funds combined. You got a positive two twenty five twenty six No After all said So it's two hundred twenty five twenty six higher than what the projection of thirty thousand us so If we purchase this truck Won't we be in the won't that column change to like a negative two sixty or two fifty? Yeah in terms of overall Yeah, fun balance of these funds at the end of the year It absolutely would and I think that you know I think we need to borrow for this and I'm going to try to figure out the article How we do it but From buying Looking at it. I don't think we have much of a choice Two pump trucks Only one of which is marginally visible right now and waiting until June or worse yet if we waited until March to make this decision We wouldn't be getting a truck until December or frankly probably be April of the next year 2021 I'm not disputing Just trying to wrap my arms around it where we where we'll end up being here So on the second truck, is there any How do you secure first rates of refusal without putting any money down on that second truck? The same way we have the last couple trucks, okay, you'll give you But he's shake deal kind of he is one of the few handshake guys left If I go to him and we have this town meeting and we get past the 30 days I go to him and and he knows we're interested in it so right now we have first option to refuse it and if Come going into December everything clears and I get the approval then I will have a conversation with him And we'll make it a solid deal So right now we have that first option. Terry, which company is this? It's disorcied Emergency products. Okay. I know that Yeah, and it's been bought out from mr. Disorci Garth Brooks non singing Garth Brooks owns the company and We have we certainly do our due diligence and looking at other vendors But there's not another vendor that we've come across That will provide the service as quickly as he does. He's in St. Albans We call him with a problem No problem. I know what the issue is. I'll get it fixed I'll send my guy down there tomorrow or the next day if it's if the truck is redlined meaning it's not going anywhere He will get down there the next day or I have called him in the morning saying this is what we had happened last night And he's come down that that next day So the service to me is just as important if not more important than getting a good deal on a truck He's treated us very well Dan disorcied before that treated us pretty well. I got no complaints Thank you. I apologize for my ignorance on this, but I'd also like a little bit more in case you just So is he a broker and he's buying this truck from another manufacturer? He is a salesperson for the manufacturer. Okay So they have a model over the country. Okay, and then in terms of just understanding the ability to ever in the future or now talk about is This the specific brand that you feel is the one that we Wanted to go with because XYZ or did we did we look at other manufactured trucks? Can you just talk about that process a little bit? So typically historically you you find a vendor or two and you say this is what we want for an engine design it for us and Some vendors don't want to do that. They want to know exactly what you want and then they will design that Exactly the way with what you tell They have been very flexible up there We had good luck with the last two trucks That we've purchased the rescue truck and the current engine that sits down here in Main Street And then when we get those specs we then generic we put out a generic request for proposal and With the last two trucks. We've not had another vendor come close to what we paid for the current trucks so I Certainly under these circumstances for this next truck Even call another vendor Because I don't know of another vendor that has a truck sitting there waiting Not a brand new one anyways. We could talk all night about used ones, which is foolhardy and We could probably go out and look and say okay for the next engine. We are looking for a truck, but again were You'd then be running the risk One paying more money because he's the last two trucks He's underbid the other two of the other vendors and we within now have a truck that is the same as the one that we're looking at Can you can I go back quick on the comment of foolhardy? Can you just explain why you wouldn't want to purchase say and I'm just again I'm just trying to learn and understand this Are there ever trucks that are five years old ten years old that hit the market? Where do they hit the market and? What is the foolhardy? Well the if you were to buy a used truck, it's it's not going to be any Newer than ten years old so you can buy some ten-year-old trucks but they're a ten-year-old truck and You then Stuck with somebody else's problem. So a fire department's not going to buy an engine Keep it for just ten years. They're getting rid of it for a reason And we don't always know what that reason is So you're buying a used truck has no manufacturer warranty It has but we have bought used in the past right just tower trucks Because I don't think the town wants to pay for a brand new Tower truck. It's over a million dollars. Yeah, one of my concerns here is that and it's not anything you've done But the timing of them always potentially be in the exact same time Is one concern? Certainly agree. Yeah And you did not get a quote on the repair of the the leaking tank No Do you have any guess on where then what that would be I? I do not You know Eric the mechanic used to work with Steve Gupto built fire trucks He explained the process of having to remove that tank. It's not something that he can do It's not something that Steve Gupto can do either. I don't think any more of the way his shop is set up Do you think it's thousands? I Think it's thousands. I don't understand a fool, but we can't even take that out of Service to try to do that repair because then we would be down to zero Okay, I'm just trying to understand if we pull the trigger on this 461 truck if we as soon as if we were to procure that if we should still send the other one out if it's Thousands to get back to a two-truck scenario, right? Well, then my question too is if you if we go ahead Get the go-ahead to order the second truck 461 which I think that's what it was Would you then be able to live along until yes? Yes, so Right if we were to get that other truck That's going up to the Maple Street station the brand new truck the other truck that's leaking water We would bring back down to Main Street And we could continue to fill it every two or three days Right because the water is not filling up anything. It's going right into the drain right into the sewer system So that concerns me less We have people at the station periodically they can we can continue to fill that truck and it's The way we operate that truck feeds the first engine that gets there unless we're at multiple calls Which has happened, but we can keep water on that truck if it's at Main Street. I just I'm apprehensive about putting water in that truck every couple of days at Maple Street and then having hard again come here every Week or two Would you have where is it? Where would that truck that leaks live between now and June going to be in Main Street? Yeah Until right yet Which is the first of November so it's going to be up there until the first of November without water That's just the way it is And then when that new truck comes in it goes up to Maple Street and That other truck will come back down here to Main Street and it can sit there and leak We'll just keep putting water Back to your question We're not going to get a lot of money out of that truck and I guess we could research it a little bit and But where's the cut-off when you're not going to get money out of it? Just put money into it I think it's 25,000 per year is where I can I'm gonna ask you another stupid question and again I was just trying to understand the scenario because I know it sounds like years ago The reason why we how many other towns? I guess of our size are running this dual setup of two fire departments with two Pump trucks. I mean are we are we somewhat of a And maybe maybe this question is Completely naive of myself, but just trying to understand the scenario that we're in of we were a village a town We have these two now. We're back in one How many other towns this size are running? this much equipment and Is are we it are we just as big as we should be or well, how can you just explain it a little bit? So it was there's been a village department since the 1800s and people in the town Waterloo center area In the 50s whenever it was that they started knew that they were not getting the quick service and speed has a lot to do with what you can save and So some people up there got together and they created a fire department and it was a private organization which over the years morphed into a town department and There have been studies there. I think there's been three studies in my time that I recall Where the question has been? Do we need this equipment? The answer has always been You don't need it if you don't want to provide the service So if you decide to cut back an engine You're going to lose some service someplace One truck from maple tree went away it was a you it was for the lack of a better phrase is a bread truck so we got rid of a mini pumper and Right, two vehicles and we got one which is the mini pumper so we did lose through the merger one vehicle but Every study that we've seen Is suggested that we can't get rid of an engine And the only other trucks that we have are That were there's duplication are the tank trucks and in a town this size You need both those tank trucks if there's a fire outside of a hydrant area And then all the others are specialty trucks. So Gary another way to ask the question and We had this discussion How many other times yeah, sorry five thousand or so people or even bigger More than one station In this area Metal sex has two stations. They're significantly smaller than we are their land area May be comparable. I really don't know their department is significantly smaller East Montpelier has two stations Stowe does not stowe chose not to they had talked at one point to put a station on the mountain road and They didn't want to the the fire department itself Essex has To two departments two stations Underhill Jericho has two stations. So they've spread them out based on geography of their towns for the the quicker response and I'd assume that because I guess we're looking at it. Say say we're gonna spend a million dollars It's about fifty thousand dollars per year I think over the 20 years of just expectation of cost only specific to the pump truck So as we I guess one of my questions. I'm gonna have to bill is this The bar and not to exceed five years You know the impetuous amputation of that spend is Titan to five even though its life is hopefully 20 and just trying to understand What our options might be surrounding that and then of course I have a concern of Are we over equipped I understand the scenario that we've had I'm just I'm just trying to understand that like these are huge Expenses these are significant cost to the taxpayer and just you know, are we a somewhat of a I guess have we ended up here because of the separation of the village in the town and understanding Any options we have there and of course It's always I think going to be a difficult decision if you ever had to make a decision to say we're gonna go down to Either decrease our equipment size or go down to one station. Of course I would expect that our ability to be at the level that we are now, but is there Is there ever a consideration that we should make as Affordability comes an issue. So I'm just I'm not trying to judge that in any way I think you know You Think you were around You weren't on the board Chris was very involved in the Discussion about the fire stations We had a bond those who passed and then it was rescinded that Kind of the same thing happened with the municipal building that seems to happen fairly regularly But in that whole scenario and Chris can speak to it better than I because I wasn't on the committee They looked for a location where we could have one station. I know they looked at the property that Joe Baker has 100 with a whatever Whatever calls that place now, but we did look at one station and if we had one station Would there be a difference in terms of the equipment that we had and And the determination was it's not feasible for one station. There were issues There was you know, you didn't have either water or sewer at that location and that was problematic And we did time trials me there are a lot of people involved in time trials. They pick sporadic places throughout the town and literally drove From different members houses. So we've got a good blend to the fire station and then to those locations out of both locations and then they did it based on single locations and the time Dramatically increased more than doubled if I recall the response time and So there's a there's a huge trade-off Really contents fire becomes a whole house fire and certainly To Those trucks came One real rescue vehicle as opposed to the other thing we got a pump a mini pump of that can do something so I think we've looked at the Vehicle number right now. Do we just we have two pump trucks or three three not counting them in the mini right I'm not counting that. So there's got three right and the third one is scheduled when? Not a ten years ten years So we have three vehicles Because we bought two as you know the town of the village bought two at the same time so we've got a cycle of the pump trucks of 20 years But two of them and then ten years later. There's one and ironically these are the two that we were discussing last January I guess to replace and we decided to put it off We talked about splitting it up then right doing this year and one next year Then we talked about Saved money by not doing it which is fine, and I think that you've come up with a Solution to your quandary You know which saves Actually a little bit more this it actually does It would be available if we were to if we didn't have any problems with our engines and we continued with the plan for next year We're still saving more money than what we would be next year. Yeah So I don't have it with me right now We bought you know, we've got we've got a pretty big fleet of trucks and This paper that I just passed out. You'll see on there that there's the pipe information is the debt service the principal outstanding of all our loans as of December 31st 2018 And then the handwriting is What's going to be paid? Well, not what's going to be paid down what the balancers will be at the end of this year when we make this The payments on these loans this year, so you can see that we've got a ladder truck there At the end of 18 we go 292,500 when we get to the end of this year, we're going to owe $260,000 what do you know what time frame that's on? What do you mean? Is that a ten or a five or amortization schedule? That is And I believe Because it's So anyway We kind of We have a number of vehicles that are all kind of coming together At different times so we kind of have this rolling schedule now if I could Have a town meeting and authorize us to borrow the money for More than five years I would do that because you're exactly right This is a lot of money we don't have the money Inter To borrow inter front for nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars. We can't borrow from ourselves right now So the ladder truck I Believe if I go back and look at that The warning that we had on the ladder truck is that we asked the voters to allow us to borrow the money Over ten years because we're borrowing it from ourselves. So technically we're not we're really not borrowing it We're just borrowing it from this one To have a boat at town meeting that isn't a bond though the longest you can go out is five years so If this were to pass if and I as I said, I thought we would be waiting till November Getting authority to buy both vehicles. I picked nine hundred and fifty We're gonna be a little shorter that if we if we did it because The second practice a little bit more expensive If we actually did go out and say borrow from the People's United Bank I Think I would recommend to you the same thing that we did with Harry Hill Paving when we borrowed five hundred thousand dollars there 2014 for five years Bank and refunded the note and then spread that over ten years You can you can do that you can't have a You can't go beyond five years. So if you just kind of do it from up or so in those scenarios There's a balloon at the end of five years Financing no, so What we What we did with the same thing what we did with the Perry Hill bond was we borrowed $500,000 the next year's budget. I believe I but we budgeted nothing to pay to pay in that year and then we just we The select board on its own motion can turn the note into a bond Ten years on that So in fact, we so it actually we have advertised that I think over 11 years Well, maybe we actually bought in 450 from the bomb bank and 110th of it ourselves that way Why do you refinance it? Why do you do it twice? You get a better way Don't get a better way just Did you say there's a third So well that has to be that's ten years down How come we three I was wondering again, so prior to the merger the village department had two engines because that's we covered not only waterbury, but we covered more town part of more town and Duxbury and It the first engine in Theory goes directly to the fire the next engine comes up with additional people connects to the hydrant runs a hose to the engine It also is there when there's more than one call and We've certainly have seen that it also provides us with a little bit of insurance in the event that something happens in this case Right, it wasn't enough insurance But we like I said, it was probably Six seven years ago, and we're on the interstate the interstate turned ice We're I was in the engine and we had our best driver most conscientious driver and we hit Ice on the interstate above the Bolton Falls and the truck spun around we hit the Jersey barrier It caved in the corner. It was about twenty four thousand dollars. It was out of service We still hadn't had the truck that we could operate with Two weeks later. We're at another crash attractor trailer came around the corner too fast jimmed on its brakes the box slid in and narrowly missed one of our people and hit the truck so We then took a Fire truck from Maple Street because they still had a mini-pumper and we brought it down to Main Street So there's some juggling of trucks But we wouldn't be able to do that if we eliminated one and Wait if we operate them if you have a big building fire. It takes more than one engine to operate that fire So moving forward here on the decision as to whether making the decision as to authorizing the media purchase of the first truck To rewrite the article for a special town meeting would you somehow put in there that That were taking from the CIP for the first truck and some of the money based on the way The CRPs are set up We would be essentially taking the money out of The CIP out of the highway infrastructure for the bridge project to Kind of fatten up the fire vehicles So we kind of have to replace that money. I think you have you have two options Well, I think the first thing you have to decide is if you're going to buy any truck Brand new truck without the benefit of a town meeting. I think that we're in a situation that you should do that just for the Public safety reasons You know, we're we're essentially down to one pump right now. That's fully marketable and If you can get it back to Main Street and let the water go down the drain It's better than what we have now But I think you have to decide what you're going to buy a vehicle without benefit of the town meeting We did it a couple of years ago as I said for the Sidewalk plow that was like I mean 65,000 dollars or something like that wasn't 461 it was a hundred and sixty, but it still was a major purchase if you do that and we just would pay cash for it now and then we can Amend this article if you're going to have a town meeting in November ask the board for the authority to buy And finance a truck for 489,000 or I would say 500 just to make sure we cover the base and then You could ask for The voters to authorize borrowing Additional borrowing to To finance the emergency purchase that was made in November I mean to your point mark Well, we're in a scenario here where we've got one truck that's One truck that's completely Virtually completely crippled. I think it's given us a sign there that it's getting late One truck that's virtually crippled another one. That's half crippled I'd say one is At least you could function with it. This is literally we've stripped it down. There's nothing on it It won't run it'll maybe go down the street, but it doesn't sound good going down the street And it may not go down the street, but anyways at your point being so we've got two trucks that are On the verge of having to be replaced. We knew that last budget season If we move forward with the immediate emergency purchasing of the one vehicle Set up the special town meeting And the voters will decide then whether they want to purchase a second pump truck or not, right? So Because we're making the decision to potentially spend for 61 and was not in this year's budget. So even if we emergency Pull the trigger on this one It's really What's the follow-up to that? Do we go all the way until next town meeting to to really talk about the borrowing for that? Or we still have to talk about the borrowing for that. I would do it at the special town meeting And that's where you'll resolve that issue along with the issue of the funding for the second one as well in the voters instead of Instead of us having to put it in the budget for March. It'll be an early town meeting Discussion and at that point that the whole thing will get resolved. So They're either they you know, either they'll vote down them They'll vote for the spending to reimburse for the emergency spending and vote down the spending for the second truck until a later day or vote to purchase both Right, I'm gonna ask in a requirement. I think personally I'm supporting this especially if there's a 70,000 dollar savings Find it out that I know that it's a little clearer that there are three of these trucks What's the risk on repairing the one truck with the leak after we get this new truck? And having that as a backup and letting that go past the 20 years and not necessarily pulling the trigger on another $500,000. I mean, I understand that it's at its end of life But each one of these trucks is going to cost us approximately $25,000 a year of just depreciated Expense we're buying something five or a thousand it's going to zero. We obviously are learning that these are going to zero So that's basically $25,000 a year. So I mean I Back to the question of just, you know, how much equipment do we have? These are huge expenses if If the ongoing maintenance expense exceeds $25,000. Yes I think and then of course safety question marks and I understand age But I'm just trying to get a little of big more understanding of I definitely understand that we need one right away But the second one Next year that potentially We basically by not making the decision last year saved $50,000 in a single year We actually now because of this scenario of the demo truck I think there's a couple scenarios that I think we could is the 49 is that the demo truck for next year potentially But he would equip it how we potentially would want it. What was that 49 for the second truck? that is the that is the next demo truck and that would be There's a list of equipment that's going on the first one Yeah, putting that same list of equipment into the next one And he would be willing to take that risk of equipping that and not knowing that not knowing whether or not we'd be buying that truck But potentially by asking back to him and saying hey, there's some timing with a vote Maybe we can make that decision. Yeah, but I don't know Because I did not talk to him about whether or not we have a town meeting in March Whether or not he would hold that because there are other departments out there that are starting to see the The good idea, but we're talking about November So we might be voting in both so you might have to wait for the second November No I think he made it clear that he would he's got a hand on a handshake if we could confirm this in November If we if this person said that yeah, then that truck's ours. So is is Europe the question before this exchange If We could fix the leaking tank Okay, so we've got three vehicles right now. We've got two going in 2020 that was the anticipation one going in 2030 and then it would be two in 2040 right I won't be here So could if you fix the tank The leaking tank in the one that's up at Maple Street now What's the likelihood that it could make it to 2025 and that way would have one in 20 That one 25 30 Five and then would be in 40 There's really no way of saying I knew for I'd be wanted all over the place To to judge I mean we expected these two trucks to last past next year and They're not So to say okay, we could fix This tank an engine's a big difference on that a tank Right, but we're still talking about sir risk risk 20 year old fire truck that is already Demonstrating that the the connections from the tank to the pump are no good that's got to be fixed and then what happens six months from now when something else goes do we continue to fix that on a 20 year old plus truck The NFPA now we don't have to comply with NFPA, but if something happens, we're going to find out in court How much we should have? Sure. I mean, yeah, I It's a I understand the decision that it's not an easy one and of course you'd want to buy new Honor, I think this is a difficulty. I'm having what this Of course a million dollars in a single year or close to a million dollars, but you know the the idea that the third how many I guess back to the question of departments, how many other size departments have three contracts I Don't know. I know that I know the departments that have multiple stations. I do not know what they have certainly Burlington, but they're significantly larger. I don't know that they're that much larger in area than what we is I'm just wondering if you know, we feel like a brand-new one. We have one that's a 10 years old and then Potentially if this leak is not a tens of thousand dollar repair that then that gives us a little bit more You know every year is $25,000 So every year that we can keep that truck going that doesn't cost us $25,000. We're saving money I understand that there's there's a headache from that, but I think this basically we have to think about that as an option I'm not saying that we should do that.  I mean, he's also got the same not the exact same But he's got he has to make decisions based on risk and safety of his his guys too So I don't I'd be interested in maybe Chris's I Understand the question And with all due respect to what Chris does His excavators his other equipment aren't going to a building fire To maybe take somebody out of a building. Sure No, so excavators down Yeah, it's okay. Well, not for hands and oranges in one sense, but it's apples and apples and another I mean my question what's got me scratch my head is This this business of the fire industry that's been created over time the manufacturers You know is this is this equipment for the amount of use that it gets it seems to be deteriorating at an unusual rapid rate and I kind of scratch my head as to Why that is I mean even the newer equipment today I gotta tell you They're making them Junkier and junkier all the time So something else hold up to like what the old equipment used to You know I'm just wondering if are these two things deteriorating Sitting in the garage just doing nothing as much as they are when they're out being used I mean what's for the for the amount of hours and the time on the road 20 years I mean these things ought to ought to be lasting more than that, but for some reason they're not And then my other question is I Understand your point is that question because I know I don't know here He can't answer that question either right to your point about Maybe saving the tank truck by patching the tank and getting a few years out of the saving ourselves 25,000 a year or whatever I'm curious to know what the additional increases in the cost of equipment as we go on you know that wait against Yeah, it's way against the same Yes, it's you know, how are we all gonna how are we gonna turn out on that? Well, I mean, and then you got you know, really we're talking about a 512 next year We're just having to have this scenario this demo truck this guy could move on In a couple years and also we're back to square one there. I mean, I totally understand those scenarios, too I'm just trying to understand a little bit. So well, you've got an industry that has a limited market, right? Okay, and these guys are Quite honestly in my opinion. They're putting it to us. They're putting it to the municipalities Well, it's not because that's that's their only market. It's government. It's it's taxpayers money to some degree and You know, it's a niche market, right? It's not like buying a vehicle. It's not just the manufacturers themselves So there's manufacturers all over the place. It's the different regulations that come down Saying you now have to have these in your truck every year.  Well, however many it holds six and and you know, the there's all kinds of safety regulations and You know, it's probably not a good idea to have Four or six guys hanging off the back of the truck going to a fire. It's it's a good Regulation it costs money, right? So I think it's a little bit of a stretch to say that these vehicles are, you know, They're putting it to us. I don't think the manufacturers are putting it to us We have ISO Standards they come in they evaluate our equipment they evaluate our stations That is we have the highest Rating that we can have for a volunteer fire. Correct and not in and by taking away one of those engines That would skew that insurance rating and then all of your insurance Premiums are going to go up, right? So it's you know Pay the town for a good piece of equipment or we all aggregate the pay at least that much in increased premiums for So if you bring back a new article Rewritten the way you think that it probably should go Can you have some figures there as to? What a five-year note would be in the expense on a tax rate Number well in that you need that before you can sign one. So we have that stuff for the meeting What I'm really concerned about is a five-year note versus the ten-year note Well, we could explain to the can only ask for a five-year note, right? We can't know I meant for our information Yeah, just so we refunding until next year. So, right That's not a decision you have to make We could explain that in the discussion that we will be going to the bond bank for Well, I yeah, I just try to try to think ahead a little bit as far as what I'm looking at as far as tax rates if I knew Yeah, I suppose it can wait till the special meeting The math is pretty simple if you if it's a million dollars and it's and it's five years You know, it's two hundred thousand dollars a year Just in principle, yeah, if it's three shots ten years Twenty years, it's you know, fifty thousand dollars a year. So three cents versus a penny and a half I mean, I appreciate Mark's questions and trying to And it has been a good question has been educational, but I Conceptually believe we I think we need to just do what you're suggesting I I think it's good that we have three engines. I think it's public safety Demonstrated there were it was an issue and we were lucky to have that extra So I think we need to I don't necessarily agree that we should patch up of 19 20 year old You know pump truck, I think we should buy a new one Next year if we cost money, but I think you know, we've got a good thing going here And I think we need to it is about public safety and I don't think you're gonna save 25,000 dollars a year necessarily by Patching up the whole truck. So I'm not an equipment expert. That's what I think And I said before that I'm not a lawyer, but I also know I'm We we've already asked the school if we could have the meeting on the 12th You know Carla's first question to me was well, can we have the special town meeting here and Likely we're not going to get a big crowd of people But in case we do, excuse me But Could do it the park station If any of you are available for a brief Select board meeting later in the week, we still would have a couple days To get this on the 12th I think we'd need to warrant by Friday One two three That could be available on Friday Friday the 15th That's gonna be that's a Bad day for me Yeah, we could And the reason I'm reluctant. I know that If we have to borrow from a bank and and I just told you I don't think we have the capability to borrow from ourselves The village might be willing to lend us half of this but If we have to borrow from a bank, they're going to want to see the warning and they're going to want to see the results of the vote and I know from talking with Paul Giuliani who's the bond council that you have to have a If we already bought the vehicle and then are asking to borrow something you're basically asking to reimburse yourself I'm not sure the bank will be Willing to go forward even if I amended this and I wrote it So I guess what I'd like to say is I'd like to have a lawyer write the article That we're going to authorize the purchase of One vehicle the 489,000 dollar vehicle and finance it and then Reimbursed authorize us to borrow money to reimburse this emergency expenditure I'm just fearful if we if I just did it and then we end up a bank saying That's that's not a legal warning. I'm reluctant to do that So what I'd like to do is talk to Paul Giuliani tomorrow and then sometime During the day if possible to have a quick Meeting that would take 15 minutes to get to sign the warning that Okay, so you're out. So what you're doing what you're considering doing is having a Meeting with a lawyer to figure out the article have a special support meeting To authorize that article to be put forward, which would also include Would also include the authorization to go ahead and purchase the first truck Well, or not the authorization or do we make the first truck the authorization to finance And the purchase that already paid So do we make the motion to Authorize the purchase of the first truck tonight? No. Oh, yeah And then you're going to set up the article to reimbursed and possibly purchase Based on voter approval, right? So if the board is in agreement with the purchase emergency purchase of the first truck We can simply make a motion for that Do you you don't need a motion to Have an an article drafted up No, okay. So just the motion for the purchase of the emergency purchase of the New pump truck at up to 500,000 I would say four and 65. What was it? It's it's 461, but I think bill is right. I mean 465 is not going to change anything and you're going to figure out where it's going to come from Well, yeah, we've got money I can assure you we're not going to spend one cent more than what we need to to Stuff on this truck so it's an actual fire truck It doesn't make sense and it's foolhardy to take old stuff 20 year old ladders They have Been through the battle days and putting it on a new truck They get tested every year and there's more and more bend to those ladders I'll m