All right. Hello. Good morning. Could you give us your introduction? My introduction. Yeah, okay, my name is Laura Kroetschmer. Professor Emeritus of Audiology, that's AUD. I started at the University of Cincinnati in 1967 and retired in 2009. As Emeritus Professor. What brought you to UC? Well, I came, I was in graduate study at Columbia, and I took a job. I had been here before and it took a job because I wanted to come back to Cincinnati. I liked. I'm from I'm from the Midwest from Kansas. But I liked it here. What did you like about Cincinnati? Oh, I don't know. Just nice people. Unusual cultural experiences, reds, Cincinnati reds, just sports. Yeah, lots of stuff. Yeah, so how did you become interested in communication studies and disorders? Well, I went to University of Wichita to I went into a program in communication disorders. It was called Logopedics, which is doesn't mean anything, but I thought that I wanted to work with people who had communication disorders. It seemed like it was interesting area. And then when I was a senior, they had a lecture from Northwestern on hearing and that grabbed me and fascinated me. So then I went on to Northwestern and then to Columbia. So what do you hope students took away from your courses? Well, I hope that they took away that the client is the most important person, the focus of what they're trying to do and that they need to be trying to be client-centered rather than working on disorder, helping the person with a disorder. I think I got that accomplished pretty well. Were there any other core values that you wanted to instill in your students? Well, I was concerned that they had professional focus and that they belonged to professional associations and that they continued to study throughout their life, not just while they were in graduate school. I think I accomplished that too. What was the hiring process like that you see? In 1967 the hiring process was that you talk to whoever was offering the position and then you went into a an office with the dean of the college who was traditionally an old white guy and he sort of made your case and then they made you an offer which was sort of a take and or leave it, but I wanted to be here, so I took it. What was your relationship like among your colleagues? Well, over the years I had a lot of different colleagues. I had some people that I was very close to and very cooperative with and colleague or two that were jerks, but I sort of lived with that and found my own relationships as well. My husband started working here at the university a couple of years after I did, so at least, and he was in a different department, so at least I was friendly with the people that he worked with. You know, I found support. Did you face any challenges that you see? Yeah, I think that I think that there were a lot of challenges. Not necessarily with my job since I thought that I was free to pretty much run things the way I wanted to run them. What I thought was good educational experience, but I think there were challenges with salary and with advancement. But I made it through anyway. So how did you see respond to your needs? How did they respond to my needs? No, I don't think they cared about my needs very much. You know, I always had an office and resources were you know, they were there if needed in terms of media or in terms of materials. Until we had a faculty union, I don't think that they responded to anybody's needs very much, but after that it was better. Did you work with others in your department that felt the same way? It felt that they needed union support or it felt that they needed better support. Yeah, both. Yeah. Yeah, I think I was maybe not in step with other people in the in the department. I think I was the only one that really felt strongly about the union. But you know, these were people that I got along with and for the most part I respected them. What was your involvement with the union like? Well, I wasn't a screaming radical by any means, but I certainly got involved in the process of supporting negotiations. I did participate in both of the strikes that we had simply because I thought it was the right thing to do. Would you say like those were successful? Yeah, they were successful in the sense that brought the administration to the bargaining table and sort of set a precedent that bargaining was better than not having classes or having the idea of the strikeout in the community. For the most part, I think that it worked out until a little later in terms of the administration. At some point we did get an administration that was not interested in negotiation. Was there a particular administration that you could think of? That didn't support negotiations? Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't I don't, since this is for posterity, I don't care to name anybody particularly, but when Henry Winkler was president he understood the issues and supported negotiations. Nancy's info was somebody who more recently supported negotiations. In between there were a couple of people that didn't. Was there a particular administration that stood out to you at your time at UC? Well, I mentioned Henry Winkler and I thought he was the epitome of what a college president should be. He was an area diet and thoughtful and willing to respect the faculty. He was a pretty decent guy. And I thought although she came late in my tenure here, I thought Nancy's imprinted a very nice job. Community didn't like it because she made sure to fire a basketball coach who needed firing, but she understood the process of bringing people together and cooperating, so I thought that was important. What are your thoughts on Warren Bannis? Yeah, he brought that up before. Well, you know, he was everybody's fair-haired boy, sort of. And I think he thought that he had sort of reinvented the process and made it all open to everybody. Yeah, I mean, he was okay. I didn't exactly see what the attraction was, but I liked some of his appointments. I liked his Dean of Education that he appointed and a couple of others that I thought were people that sort of saw broadly what the issues were and made a lot of effort to be innovative. He wasn't very high on my list, but, you know, he was a nice guy. So why do you think UC wasn't able to respond to your needs properly? Well, sort of responding to my needs would be, you know, do a fabulous job of upping everybody's income, including mine and providing a new building and doing all kinds of supportive faculty. And I think that what happened over the time that I was here was that the relationship with the state and the finances or lack of finances sort of created a problem with lack of support. The students started to get some of the things they deserve, but I never, I didn't think that the faculty was getting the things that they deserve. What steps did you particularly take to try to, you know, gain life a better salary? Well, there was an instance. I'm having a little trouble putting it in time perspective, but I believe it was in the late 70s when there were a number of women who were senior faculty that presented a case for improving salaries. Specifically for those women, and they were all in, which I wasn't that time, they were all in senior ranks associated or full professor, and so I participated in that arbitration. I don't recall that it got me anything. I think it did help one or two people who were really egregiously low in terms of their salaries. That was primary effort that I made. Would you say it was successful? For those one or two people, I thought it was, I think it was successful. I think they did get a little more appreciation from their various departments. I don't recall getting a huge jump in my salary, but I did get jumps when negotiations sort of panned out. I think the thing that was annoying to me is that I thought I was doing as well as my husband, and he actually came in a couple of years after I did, but we were at the same rank, and he was always making at least 10 to 20 thousand dollars more than I was. Yeah. Yeah, and you two worked on some research projects and books together too. Sure. Yeah, and the books that we published, a couple of books that we published were together, and my name was on as was his. It was not his fault, but I think that pretty well spoke to how things were. See, were there other events or incidents that were handled poorly by the university? Yeah, well, I did after the, this was 1970, after the shooting at Kent State, there was substantial unrest here on this campus as there was most of the Ohio school campuses. It required a lot of demonstration by students to get any response from the administration, and I didn't think the way they handled. Legitimate student complaints was really the best way to handle it, and I sort of didn't get, particularly in later years, how negotiations were handled. I'm pretty much told that the faculty representatives at one point, this was in 80s, I guess, late 80s, sort of take it or leave it in terms of we're not doing X or we're giving you Y, but that's it. And the administrators were not really involved in negotiations. They sent in a lawyer and said, this is how it's going to be. It's not really collective bargaining in anybody's mind. Did any faculty leave because of this? I'm sure that, I don't know about 1970, later I'm sure that there were faculty who weren't retained, or didn't, I don't mean they were fired, I mean they chose not to stay. I was, let's face it, we're a little, since that is a little bit sort of inward looking and conservative, and I think it's been a challenge for some faculty who come on and can't find a support system that they want. So they've fled usually for better salary, better working conditions. So are you familiar with the case with Colleen McTeague? She sued the university because she wasn't getting paid enough, like her salary was too low. And so she actually won that case. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah. Was she in geology or what was her program? It doesn't ring a bell. Yes, geology. Professor in 2007. Okay, that was started more recently. There were actually a couple of names that are escaping me. There were a couple of similar cases before that. I'm not so good with names anymore. Yeah, I would hope that they would, I understand, and I'm sure that it happened, and I'm sure that she had a case, and I'm sure that she should have been reinstated and or gotten better salary. I'm sure of that. Gutsweiler, the person I was thinking of, Catherine Gutsweiler, who was, I think maybe she was classics, not sure, but she was denied tenure and there was a lot of negotiation going on. It was clear that she should have been granted tenure, and I think that case was resolved in her favor. I'm not sure of it. I would think it was probably the 80s. You'd have to look it up. Do you think this affects women faculty and how they are able to teach and interact with colleagues? Well, I think there's no question that if you put in the work, and that was certainly one of the things that happened with the, when I was involved in the complaint in the 70s, there were one or two people that, women who should have been advanced, put in the work, did as much or more than their male colleagues and weren't respected for that. I think there's no question that there are issues, and I think there could probably continue to be issues. This is not new for us or the university or for women in this context, I think it's probably pretty common to be honest. So how have you found your support system? How did I find my support system? Yes, you mentioned how throughout your years, you know, people that were like-minded and just kind of helped you with challenges. Sure. Well, I think you'd have to be willing to reach out and to seek people that are interested in the things that you're interested in, maybe outside of teaching, even. I would saw the faculty send out a couple of terms, although I didn't really think the faculty sent out much pull, but anyway, I did that a couple of terms. So the people that I found as a support system were people that liked other things besides teaching, not that they didn't like teaching, but other things in the community, theater or movies or good books or all those kind of things that you do to develop your cultural life. And so how should faculty go about finding their support system if they can't find that within their department? Well, that's a good question. I think you have to be willing to try to survey across the university and find like-minded people. Sometimes it's in research. Like-minded people who are interested in teaching look for any resources in the university that might be involved in development. One of the things I did participate in that was helpful, although it didn't take me into administration, was a year-long program for women to develop their leadership abilities and to promote likelihood of their entering or getting a chance to enter administrative positions, which of course is a way to advance. And I did participate in that and found a mentor, but the mentor wasn't able to take me on. So I didn't get past that particular event in terms of doing administrative things, although I was a department head for several years. The program I had actually in the department. What did you do as a program head? Well, one of the things I did was to help develop our application for accreditation for the program from the American Speech Language Hearing Association, which was to put together a report and gather data on student success and so on. That was successful. We did get accreditation. This was in the 80s, I guess. And then I tried to help resolve some of the disputes between faculty and students. I had some success there and other things that were not so successful. What was the process like gaining that position? Well, we had a program head who had some issues, couldn't be, didn't need to be reappointed, shouldn't have been reappointed. He had some health challenges and we weren't really getting support from the administration to help him deal with those health challenges. They looked around and said, well, who can be program head? And there I was. I was an appropriate rank and really the only person with abilities and rank experience. So, well, I got to be program head. So depending on the circumstances, would you say communication is a challenge like, I guess, navigating different department dynamics? Yeah, I'm sure that that is critical. I wasn't particularly good at that. I tended to want to do things my way. I didn't warn people quite enough about some of the decisions that needed to be made. So I was moderately successful as a program head. I also wasn't willing to put up with inappropriate behavior from some of the faculty that were responsible. So I did tend to confront some of them and that didn't hurt me any high marks. So I would say that I did okay, but I wasn't the best negotiator. Let's put it that way. Do you think it's because people have different expectations?  Yeah. Oh, I don't think my gender was a problem. I think it was my attitude. So, you know, I was satisfied with some of the things that happened in our program, but there are other things that I didn't do the best job in the world at. If you could go back, what types, like, what kind of things would you have improved? Are you talking about in my whole tenure? Well, it's like the program, particularly. I had a couple of colleagues that had inappropriate behavior that I would have tried to have found some administrative support to help me reign in that behavior and get some censoring of those folks. That would have been useful because we could have saved ourselves some heart aches at some point. Yeah, I, the primary problem with colleagues who are doing inappropriate things is that you have to have administration who's willing to support you and calling those people out. And they were, I'm talking about men who were doing inappropriate things with students. And I didn't, I didn't feel that I ever got any, when I reported these things, I never got any support from administration. They weren't willing to call these folks out. This is well before me too. Yeah, yeah, so keeping the higher-ups accountable is very important. Yeah, well, they were certainly people that didn't want to deal with some of the obvious problems. And as a consequence, the problems didn't go away. They sort of persisted. Did you want to elaborate on any of those issues or rather not? No, I'd rather not. Okay, that's fine. So let's talk about how UC has expanded. Were there any difficulties and transitions from being a city to a state school? Well, I thought we were all excited about going to be a state-affiliated school. I think we had unrealistic expectations about what it was going to mean from a financial standpoint. We were a nice little city university, and we needed, we were able to take more students, and we needed new buildings and other kinds of resources, financial resources, and we thought that the state was going to give us those. And then we got a basketball arena, but that's pretty much it. Very quickly, resources got reduced, and then pretty soon we were state-affiliated, but not really reasonably funded. So I think that's the point at which we started to work hard at getting research dollars and doing other things to try to support the university. Did you witness any tension within the community as UC expanded? If there was some anxiety, then I'd try to point out how one stays safe in any city and then assure them that we'll take good care of their kids if they do reasonably smart things in terms of where they walk at night, why it could be, you know, things will be all right. At least in my experience, we didn't ever lose any students to violence or anything of that sort. A couple of car break-ins, but that's not a bad thing, that happens everywhere. They break into cars in suburbs too. Yeah. So what do you think of the implosion of Sander Hall? The implosion of Sander Hall? Well, I parked on the street to watch it. It's kind of an odd thing, but I suppose it was an easy way to get it down. I think that it had a lot of bad design features in the first place. I think probably they avoided having some people trapped on the upper floors. If the building got on fire, that could have been a real disaster from that standpoint. Other than the fact that it happened, I didn't really have any strong feeling about it. Yeah. So did you think maybe it was poorly designed because you see it was expanding too fast or? Well, maybe they picked the wrong architects. I don't know. I mean, I didn't really think of it in those terms. And the point of fact, there's been significant problems with housing, on-campus housing for a long time, I think is probably still going on a little bit. They opened a couple of dorms, so things are probably better. And then you can see all of the apartments that have sprung up around the university, which I think has been a help. Well, I mean, I think there were some bad decisions that didn't have to do with expanding, but the Crosley Tower has always been unbelievably ugly. So I understand it's coming down eventually. They put up some great buildings. So from that standpoint, I think the university architect has done some pretty good things. Yeah. So have you seen ways in which you see us connected with the community? Yeah. Well, we have—this isn't beside the point that's actually the point—we have a small clinic in our department for people with adults with hearing loss who want service and some children who have preschool children and so on. And we've tried to reach out to the community to provide that service, although there's plenty of services around the city. I think that the sort of consistently that day of help sorts of things around the city has been promoted. Athlete teams are typically going out to help clean up and help with playgrounds and that kind of thing. I think there's certainly been some effort to try to improve community relations through the on-campus police department. After the DeBose problem, they had a lot of meetings to try to take the community's opinions into account and to try to do more cooperative things. They describe themselves as—we describe ourselves as an urban university, so it's important to fit with urban settings and to try to do things to improve urban settings because so many people in the United States live in urban settings. Yes, it feels like there's a lot of effort to reach out to the community, involve the community, do things that are attractive to the community in terms of CCM performances and other kinds of events. How has the campus become more diverse over time? Well, I think there's been effort to invite different groups of students in, for example, the first-gen house and the students are there as one effort. They're not all people of color, but they certainly are. Now, students who—the family has never had anybody in college before, I think that's been a good effort. Most of the programs that I know have some familiarity with are working hard to recruit underrepresented students, nursing, for example. The College of Allied Health Sciences worked pretty hard to try to recruit underrepresented populations. I don't have any numbers on how that's working, but my assumption is that things are improving in terms of diversity. Do you have other data that suggests that it's not true? Oh, no. I was just curious to see how you've seen the campus become more diverse. Yeah, I think that's the case. It feels like it, and sort of, as I think back on rather large number of students that I've actually seen, it seems like it's more diverse. I hope that's happening, continues to happen. Yeah, does it surprise you that students come here just for co-op reasons? No, it doesn't surprise me a bit. DAP programs—some of the DAP programs are the best in the whole country, not just by rank, but by, in fact, by experience, and co-op attracts a lot of students as it should. It was an exceptionally good idea. It started here, and the idea of co-op started on the UC campus, and it makes sense that students would come here for that. CCM has several programs that are nationally ranked, so no, it doesn't surprise me when I meet a student who's come from California, or someplace else on the West Coast, or even other places on the East Coast, or internationally. So how has technology changed over time with your teaching at UC and everything? Well, I mean, the biggest obvious things are going from one overhead projector to multiple media things in the classroom, so that you're getting video, or movies, or internet, or anything that you want in the classroom. I think the biggest change has probably been student access to various kinds of media, so it used to be the case that maybe there'd be one or two people that would have a laptop in a class I'm talking about in the early 2000s. And then by the time I finished, everybody in the class had a laptop open. I thought they were a little bit more involved in laptop than they were in my very interesting lectures, but there you go. So, you know, it's the same explosion in the University of Media as it is in all of society, so everybody's got a phone, everybody's connected, which is okay. I spend a lot of time on my phone. Was technology ever like a distraction for students in your class? In every class, there are always some students that are distracted by the media, so that you know they're sitting away in the back of the classroom and they're surfing. And they're punching each other and laughing, pointing at the screen and so on. I usually just said, don't do that, because I'll call you out. A couple of times I did and then they quit. Yeah, I think on the other hand, sometimes if you don't have an answer, why somebody can go on Google the question and get an answer and contribute to the conversation. I used something called Blackboard, which is the online service that UC has for courses. That was very helpful, I thought, when we started to do that. This is early 2000s, I think. So, you could put all the lectures up, you could put all your materials up, you could put the assignments up, you could take quizzes and take exams and didn't have to do a lot of paper stuff. That was extremely helpful. I was very happy for that addition. And it facilitated off-campus online courses too, which I did teach some. How has technology impacted things like research? Well, I think it has made a large difference. I can remember when I was in graduate school in the sixties, if we wanted to search in the library, we had to go and go to the card file and open the card file and pick out what we wanted and then see if we could find it in paper copy. I haven't done that for 25 years because everything you want is online. All the library resources are online. Articles, you can borrow books from any place in the whole state if you need a book. It's facilitated research. I've got a question about particularly the and the date interpretation and writing. So that part has made a huge difference. So where do you see the future of UC going? The future of UC? Well, I think they have ensured that it will continue in some fashion. I'm not sure how I feel about the number of students that they want to cram into this place, but it certainly has programs that are cutting edge across the university. And I think it's established its place in terms of innovation and I'm assuming that there is a future. Do you think being a heavy like research college affects the way professors interact with students? Well, it is. It's an interesting change from people can be tenure faculty where the focus is on research and then there will be educators, clinical educators that will do teaching. Yeah, I think there's probably been some change. I know one of the things that we were kind of grumpy with Ohio State was that at least from undergraduate programs, I'm reflecting on students that come to us from undergraduate programs. The majority of courses were taught by graduate assistants or I guess they would be sort of clinical associates, which was too bad because I'm talking about speaking here in other programs. One of the things that we could say as a program in department was that the tenured faculty all taught and the student had an opportunity to deal with here from people who should be good at what they're doing. Just because you had tenure didn't mean you were a good teacher, but anyway. Yeah, I think that that research has kind of pulled people away from teaching, which is an important function to my way of thinking. What is your proudest moment that you see? Well, I guess there are two sort of proud moments. 20 years ago, 21 years ago, we went from being a program in arts and sciences to the College of Allied Health Science into our own department and they had two different celebrations for that department. One was a ten-year anniversary and I was named as one of the outstanding contributors to the College at the ten-year anniversary and at the 20-year anniversary, which just happened last year, I was named one of the 20 for 20 in terms of contributions to the College and I had already retired at that point, still doing some research things. So I was pretty proud of both of those accomplishments. Did you participate in any of the bicentennial celebrations? I did go to the bicentennial for the Alumni Association and one of our alums from the Department of Program and Audiology was named as an outstanding alum and received something called the Marion Spencer Award and he was a guy that I had had as a student and I had supported his development growth. He's not doing hearing things now. He was a lawyer and then an entrepreneur but we were quite happy to have had him in our program and I got invited, we got invited to something else in November for exactly what that is, dinner or something. So we're fairly active in giving some, I was one of the next, so we get invited to a lot of stuff. Do you still stay connected with students that have graduated? Yes, very connected. We have some excellent friends who are still here and even some that are a little further away that we're going with. Matter of fact, one of two different ones of our students helped plan our fiftieth wedding party, which was a Harry Potter party. It was cute. And they planned it with our funds and it was a great party so we were proud to know those people and we still keep in touch with them. Yeah, so I know you and your husband really like books.  We did donate a collection of Native American children's books to the education library and it's about 300 books in the collection right now and we'll be adding to that. These are books that we collected in the Southwest primarily when we were vacationing there. So we were very happy to make that endowment and it was the first one that the education library had received. What sort of impact do you hope that it has on the university or people that view the collection? Well, we're certainly hoping that it expands cultural awareness for the teachers and the students who get to see the books. Those books can be loaned out, they can be read there, but they can be loaned out for student teaching experiences and they're primarily Native American, some Alaskan and some other Native peoples and we know that's not a population that we have a lot of students here who are Native American, but we certainly hope that they'll be aware of what the history was here as well as what the history was in the United States. Is there anything else that you want to talk about? No, this time I didn't get the chance to mention that we love UC athletics and we're all involved in that. We have season tickets for everything, women's soccer, lacrosse, we go to all the games, women's basketball particularly, men's basketball and football too, but they like women's sports volleyball and we've been involved in contributing to the women's excellence fund which is a support fund for women's athletics particularly, so we're continuing to contribute to that fund and to support women's athletics. And part of that is because we've had some wonderful student athletes in our speech and hearing program, but additionally we like the coaches and we like the student athletes so we want to contribute there. That's awesome. That's just like another way to connect with students? It is another way to connect with students and in point of fact regards to what one reads, these ladies are athletes and students, students first in many cases, so we know that they're on their way to developing their lives and having an impact. We're happy about that. Yeah, that's awesome. Was there anything else? No, I think that's about it. Anything else from you? Nope. Okay, have you got your time? Yeah, I did. Okay. All right, thank you so much.


Welcome back to our series on bootstrapping. We left off the previous video after having made this plot where we show the bootstrapping distribution compared to the actual data and the original sample means. What we primarily use bootstrapping for is to do statistical inference. We want a larger sample size so that we can feel more confident in our final statistical inference. And one of those things is performing confidence intervals. And so a confidence interval is generally going to be two numbers. We've got the mean plus or minus something times the standard error. And so depending on the confidence level, you can have different calculations. We're going to focus on the 95% confidence interval as this is by far the most common confidence level that you will see in practice as well as in this course. And so there are three steps to calculating the confidence interval with the bootstrap samples. The first is to actually calculate x bar. So what the average of the sample means is. And so it is critical to note that everything that we're doing with confidence intervals is on the bootstrapped sample distribution. So we're using boot means, which we calculated up here to show right here. And so essentially we want boot means, bootstrap sample means dot mean. So the average of the sampling distribution. And so then we can print x bar is. So this is our mean that goes into these equations. The next step is to calculate the standard error. And recall from our previous video, we are working with the standard error because we're working with a sampling distribution. So we say S E is boot means bootstrap sample means dot STD. And then we can also print that we can say S E is. And so now we have the standard error. And so now we're ready. That's the only two things we need in order to calculate the confidence interval with the bootstrap distribution. And so we can create a array using square brackets, where the first value is XB minus two times SB. And the second value is XB plus two times S E. And then we can print that. And we could just print CI similar to what we've been doing up here. But to show you a slightly different way to print things, still using the print button, instead of just typing out the variable name here, I'm going to use a mini function. So I'm going to say round Y to the third decimal place for all Y in CI. And so similar to our four loops, this Y is just a placeholder. It just needs to be this to match that. And then it'll figure out as the Ys apply to our values in SI or CI. So if we run that, we can see the 95% confidence interval is 5.058, 7.75. And so that is all you need to do in order to get the confidence interval. But if we wanted to visualize it, I'm actually going to come up here and take this plot from our previous video, plot it here for reference. We want to add the 95% confidence interval to this. So we have a new geome. This is called error bar H for horizontal AES. We give it a Y value. And this is just going to be the position on the Y axis based off of what numbers we see here. So I'm just going to do 0.5 to put it halfway. And then we need to give it the X min of our error bar. So this is the first value of CI but attached to the zero width index. And then we do the same for X max here, CI one. And outside the AES, we can give it a color and say red. And then we're going to also add a point, a single point here. We're going to say same Y. But our X is going to actually be X bar, so we show where the mean of the sampling distribution is in reference to our confidence interval. Again, outside the AES, we say color is red and we'll give it a sufficiently large size so that it stands out. So if we run this, we can see that now we've added this confidence interval to our plot. And we've got our X bar here in the middle, which lines up with the middle of our normal distribution. And we can see here. And so with our confidence interval, essentially, we're saying that we're 95% confident that the true mean lies within this interval. So this is how you can add the confidence interval to the plot after calculating it.


From Hollywood, it's time now for Johnny Deller Oh, hello, friend I haven't heard from you since that case down in Monogua, Nicaragua got another nice long trip lined up for me I'm afraid not this time on the Baltimore for us Baltimore. Hmm. That depends How free I can be with my expense account in the seafood department Chick-a-teek oysters softshell crabs tariff and soup Johnny If you can get us off the hook on this one, I'll okay your expense account blind big one I over a hundred thousand murder arson $1,111,421 missing from a safe Wow, and you're liable for it if it isn't recovered on the full amount But who keep that much cash in a safe outside of a bank that is the Trillingham tobacco company for wine Better get the details from August Trillingham if you'll take this on on a free-winning expense account Freddy I'm your boy In the exciting adventures of the man with the action-packed expense account America's fabulous freelance insurance investigators truly Johnny dollar Expense accounts submitted by special investigator Johnny dollar to the northeastern and demnity association Hartford, Connecticut Following as an account of expenses incurred during my investigation of the wayward money matter Expense account item one twenty six thirty plane for an incidentals Hartford to New York to Baltimore and a cab to the Sheraton Belvedere After all I could afford the best Item two a tenth-cent phone call to mr. August Trillingham. He'd be glad to see me Somewhere that name rang a bell Item three a buck twenty for a cab to the Trillingham tobacco company on Conway near Charles Street It was a huge old brick building with what I guess you'd call a vaulted roof Officers at one end of it and the rest look like a kind of warehouse I'm glad you could get here so quickly mr.  Dollar and took over a hundred and four thousand dollars You always keep that much cash on hand. Yes. Yes because of the nature of our business What do you mean? Well the tobacco was grown by the farmers hereabouts barn cured for a month or two or three And then brought here we graded according to quality and color and tied into hands hands Bunches of 20 or 30 leaves depending on size Oh, I see then we pack it in hogs heads and ship it to the auction warehouses We're kind of a middle man between the small farmer in the auction. I said small farmer mr. Dollar Well, the people for whom tobacco was only an incidental crop There are a lot of them since we buy from them outright They want cash not checks or payment do the first of the month. Oh, no cash. Oh I see and You're always gambling on what you'll be able to get at the auction. That's right How are how's business mr. Tonningham? Not as good as I'd like of course, but I'm sure it'll pick up later in the year Why do you ask? Oh just wonder it a matter like this I want to know all I can that's what you said that is though. You meant to imply that I meant to imply nothing Look, you said that safe wasn't cracked. I said it was open And I'm sure I know by whom You what? Well, then why send for me well after all the liability is now your company. Well, who did it? For years, we've had a bookkeeper Little hipskrieg of a man named elmer cockley. Well, if you must give her 15 or 20 years even before I bought this business You haven't always owned it. Oh, no No, no, I made my money during the late 20s Florida real estate. Oh Yes, yes seems to me. I've heard something about your success down there I retired traveled around till the mid 40s and then decided to get back into the swing of things And I bought this business. Yes, okay now about this elmer cockley. Oh My timid ineffectual sort of little man And I suppose after 20 or 30 years of this dull routine job After seeing and handling so much money all the time. Yeah, I see what you mean anyhow at tax time I decided to have the accounting firm of Hanley James Chadwick Kermer and worms becker go over our books Just as a matter of course and it was then that elmer cockley suddenly discovered that some of the records were missing I see things balanced out at the end of the year mind you but those three or four months were Missing and it was during that period that elmer had painted his home Bought a new car didn't you investigate immediately? Of course seems to me it was then that you should have sent for me Well, since our business is strictly cash both in and outgoing. There was nothing we could pin on him What's more he was as concerned as I was apparently And after all since things finally balanced out But I wonder yeah, I should think you would and now since he's the only other person who could open the same What does he say about this robbery? He didn't come in this morning. I called his wife. He hasn't seen him since he left for work yesterday bought it You know where he lives. Yes, you have a description of his car license and so on yes Yes, I have okay, mr. Trillingham I'll notify the police from here then I'm going out to his house to see what I can learn there may use your phone Of course Yeah, it wouldn't be the first time a timid soul had finally felt his oats had run off with company money and Usually that type was hard to find the methodical mind always planned things well including a getaway Item for 80 cents taxi to a car rental agency Item five fifty bucks deposit and I drove to elmer cockley's home a few blocks off Wilkins Avenue, west of town I Wondered why the old fella had done it Sometimes the why can be the best clue as to where to hunt for a man And you know something a good part of the why it became very clear when the door of Elmer's house was open Act two of yours truly Johnny dollar in a moment And now act two of yours truly Johnny dollar and the wayward money matters Mrs. Cockley I'm Mrs. Cockley. Who are you Johnny dollar insurance investigator insurance? Investigator I haven't even filed a claim on Elmer yet.   Trillingham this morning. Of course. I have he wanted to know where Elmer was I wanted to know where Elmer was neither of us knows so that was that so when they find his body I'll collect his insurance and that'll be that and I won't have that helpless little worm around underfoot No more no more have it a baby and nurse him and tie his tie and feed him. Mrs. Cockley The only reason that little shrimp would dare not to come home is if somebody done him in and when you find him You can come around and pay me his insurance and that's that now. That's all you just a minute just a minute Did mr. Trillingham tell you that over a hundred thousand dollars was taken for the safe of the office? No Elmer didn't do it.   I told him more than once if I was in his place I wouldn't hesitate. Well go ahead. He says go ahead, and he give me go ahead He gave you what Mrs. Cargillie the combination to the safe Yes He did so what of it so maybe I went down there and robbed it last night Well, how did you know it was last night? I didn't tell you that all right All right, maybe I did I'd like to see you put it on me. Maybe I will you think I can't use that kind of money You think I don't deserve it after struggling all these years caring for him for nothing because he didn't have the gumption to get What he should have you know something Mrs. Cargillie I doubt if you ever gave him a chance to show any gumption Do you know Elmer did you ever see him no and look Look at his picture here on the hall. I'm a baby. That's all he is. All right You've made with a lot of big noisy talk now.  You really think Elmer? Little Elmer could have No No, he really didn't have the gumption. All right. Who else couldn't have missed it Outside of his books and figures at that office he He could hardly take care of his self That's why I needed me to tell him what to do and feed him and take care of it Oh, this is quite a change of pace Mrs. Cochlear maybe I did make him told the line. So what about it? He liked it Some people are that way just like me. I got to have somebody I can lord it over it anything wrong with that Well, I Don't believe a thing you said. Oh, you don't now. Where is he? Where is Elmer? I don't know and if he didn't rob that safe who did he couldn't how should I know? Why don't you ask that August thrilling him this fancy boss that's kept him and me starving all these years Did you think of him? Everybody's a suspect at the time like this Including you and the boss used to go catfishing together up the creek Great privilege for poor little Elmer to go fishing with the boss who made all the money That's where I thought he was last night when he didn't come home to supper When he wasn't home all night poor deal.  No No, I'll never believe that Elmer did it. He could sure he could anybody could now. Where is he? I don't know I think you do no and you're trying to protect him Or are you waiting to hear from him so you can join him him and the money that isn't true Then why isn't he here if half of what you told me is true because he because I'll go answer the phone Hello Yes, I'm her who oh Oh, oh just a minute Sergeant Macklin he says no man. I talked to a police. Of course. Thanks Johnny dollar. This is Macklin. Mr. Dollar. Yeah, Mac looks like it's all sewed up. Yeah, who elmer cockley Drivers license identification you found the money Well, it's left of it. They got the money. Did they you know what cockley looks like? I've seen his picture Well, that maybe you better come out here. Where Hans's bridge. Hans's bridge.  It's about nine miles up the creek north of town. Okay. I'll see you there Yeah, I want you to see if you can identify cockley's body. Oh I see Act three of yours truly Johnny dollar in a moment And now act three of yours truly Johnny dollar and the wayward money matters Without telling Mrs. Cockley what I'd learned over the phone I took off in my rental car for the creek north of town for Hans's bridge Yeah, this was a crazy case if ever there was one Elmer cockley bookkeeper for the tobacco company was the only real suspect in the hundred and four thousand dollar robbery and Where there's only one suspect I always begin to wonder But who else was there his wife? Maybe she'd done everything she could to confuse me the owner of the company trilling him Yeah, I thought of him too Until I got the word from the police that they'd found Elmer cockley or what was left of They found the money to or what was left of it. What's left of it is right dollar I'm afraid most of that hundred thousand went floating down the creek when cockley and his car rolled over into it Now we'll see how much of the door is still inside when we get the car up on the bank How do you figure it happens? The old boy was making his getaways all going too fast when he hit the turn on to the bridge and plop oh into the creek Wouldn't there be skid marks Mac? Well, he wouldn't have to be going very fast Look cars up on the bank now come on How do you know it's Elmer cockley inside of it license number and one of the boys dove in brought up his wallet Well, here she is sergeant high and yeah high and wet Okay, let's we'll have a look only a few small bills in there the rest of the dough must be out in Chesapeake Bay by now Take a look dollar that cockley in there Yeah Yeah, that's Elmer You think he drowned yeah, or banged around so hard when the car plunged in Look see the bruises on his face and chest Yeah, not pretty And Mac well, that's that just one more who tried and didn't get away with it I wonder when they'll learn that it just did What's that a little scrap of paper out of his pocket Torn only part of it see night hands Cat cat and Mac look here You know what this bruise this mark on the back of his head I really got banged around show me one thing in this car that could leave a mark like this Most anything door handle top of the steering pole sir all the other bruises are on his face his chest And there's only one thing I know that leaves a mark like this better get the corner out here before you touch anything See you later. Look where you going? I'll see you later. Now what under this? Yes, I heard it from the police father mr. Dollar and I Well in spite of what I told you earlier. It's hard to believe Yeah, it is he'd been such a loyal soul all those years But I suppose all that cash and it was a bit more than we usually kept the safe I suppose it was just too much of a temptation for him Offer any other man, huh? Even you for instance what are you joking? So it's not funny So business has been pretty bad lately. I didn't say that mr. Dollar. I merely said that I know what you said Trillium And I remember now what I'd heard about your big success in Florida real estate back in the 20 Well, I don't see what you are one of those guys who sold a lot of swamp and jungle some of it underwater to suckers from up north I was young an opportunist you were a crook You're a crook now and a killer mr. Dollar natural to hang it on poor timid little elmer cockily sure why not? He'd be the natural suspect in anybody's boy. You realize what you're accusing me of fishing cat fishing tonight enhances bridge Only you shouldn't have put it into a note to him What no the one I found on his body So you met him there you slugged him put him behind the wheel of his car then ran it down the embankment into the creek You thought they're rolling over would account for any bruises he'd get Listen, but not that mark on the back of his head the one made by the butt of a 38 special I've seen too many of them trilling him. Oh, I see You still have it. That's right, and I'll use it You didn't get away with murdering Elmer.  Why close it. Oh Do it myself? Yeah, he did it mrs. Cockley and believe me he'll pay for it Well So ends another dirty chapter in the history of crime. I Hope the insurance on Elmer makes up in some small way for mrs. Cockley's loss of it Well, I was going to say husband, but I Guess Elmer was kind of a baby tour to manage to brawl beat and to love Expense account total including transportation back to Hartford a hundred four dollars seventy cents yours truly Johnny dollar Our star will return in just a moment Now here is our star to tell you about next week story next week a fishing trip to Lake Mojave resort Fishing that is for a thief Join us. Won't you yours truly Johnny dollar? Johnny dollar starring Bob Bailey originates in Hollywood and is produced and directed by Jack Johnstone who also wrote today's story Heard in our cast were Virginia Greg Edgar barrier Alan Reed big parent and Frank Nelson Be sure to join us next week same time and station for another exciting story of yours truly Johnny dollar This is Dan coverley speaking Is the United States armed forces radio and television service


Do the math, math, math while wearing a mask to protect all the people you love. Covered lips and nose can still smell a rose and fall out to each morning dog. Double a penny for 30 days it will be worth more than 10 million dollars. Exponentials are a challenging task. Do the math, wear a mask.


Another tale well calculated to keep you in. A is one way or another as we bring you the easy victim written especially for suspense by Harold Huber. What are you doing here waiting for you, Mr. Ames in my living room? How did you get into my house? Easy, Mr. Ames, through that French window. Not hard, if you know how. Well, how have you been, Mr. Ames? I don't like this, I don't like it at all. Breaking in here without so much is, you've no right to do... Of course not. The man's home, Mrs. Castle. But we haven't heard from you in a while, so Big Tony thought I ought to remind you. And considering what I had to remind you of, this seemed the nicest way. Quiet, private. Nicest for everybody, including you, you see? Now look here. I took a liberty. And I'm sorry I startled you. No, let's let it go at that, eh? A lovely place you have here. I've been admiring your taste. Very flattering. Well, what do you want? Want? My money, Mr. Ames. Only money. We have your IOU for the ten thousand you lost at our dice table. That's all we have. So how about, forgive my bluntness, paying up? I can't, not now. I told Tony... Sure, a couple of weeks ago you told me... Well, nothing's changed since then. My business has been terrible. This house is mortgaged to the hilt. I'm short of cash. I've tried to borrow the money, but I just haven't been able to.  Of course we can. These things happen sometimes to the nicest people. Like you. Oh, believe me. I hated having to tell you this.  Well, it's the last thing I could have anticipated. These reverses were sudden. And unexpected. I don't doubt that for a minute. So you see how it is with me. Sure. But Mr. Ames, you have to see how it is with us. When we lose, we pay. So when you lose, you pay. It has to be that way, right? Well, at the time I gave you that IOU... You are expected to be able to redeem it, sure. Only trouble is you haven't. I love that tie you're wearing. It's beautiful. I need more time. Oh, we can't extend credit too long. It makes a bad precedent. The business we're in, we can't sue. Courts don't recognize gambling debts. So we have to use other methods to demonstrate that money owing to us has to be paid. We regret the necessity, but we have to make it crystal clear. All right, but you can't get blood out of a stone. We have no intention of getting blood out of a stone. On the other hand... No, never mind. I don't really need a blueprint. Good. It's a pleasure to deal with you, Mr. Ames. But you don't actually want to kill me. Please, Mr. Ames, that word. It's painful. Let's not say it aloud. A corpse can never pay. As long as I'm alive, there's a chance that I can. I'm inclined to agree, provided... Provided what? That you accept a basic principle. Well, what principle? Well, when you can't get money any other way, you have to marry it. Marry it?  Marry it, Mr. Ames. Just like that? Look, Mr. Ames, we know you frequently spent holidays at the Bell Point Hotel. The Bell Point's famous is a place where people find romance. It's full of widows, comfortably endowed who want to marry again. Come there in hope of finding a husband. Now, wait a minute. We also know you spent a lot of time with the lady you met up there. A widow named Ella Jason. For instance... Mrs. Jason and I are just acquaintances. I just happened to meet her at the hotel. Fine for an occasional date, but that's all. She's very attractive, not a bit hard to date. We're just friends, I tell you. I'm not in love with her. Besides, I don't want to marry. You don't have a choice. But to marry someone who means nothing to me except... Oh, no. Even if I could do as you say. Once I paid you, I could never go on living with a wife I don't love. I'd have to get free to get rid of her if necessary. Please, please, Mr. Ames. Again, I beg of you.  It's better I don't hear what you have in mind. But, Mr. Ames, we're realists. We do what we must, even when it's painful.  Hello? Yes, this is Bungalow Dee. This is Mrs. Jason. What a delightful surprise. Well, I'm fine. Thank you. Where are you calling from? Oh, Mr. Ames, really. Oh, please, Mr. Ames, you almost embarrassed me.  Well, yes, I did miss you. You did too, really? Well, of course I'm glad. Oh, dinner tonight? Well, I did have a tentative appointment. I really shouldn't. Well, no, I'd never in the world want you to feel that way. Well, we can't have that, can we? Well, I'll make an excuse. The tentative appointment is very nice, you'll understand. But just to be sure we don't hurt his feelings, let's dine away from here tonight. No, no, no, no, no.  Whatever's agreeable to you. You decide, Mr. Ames, and I'll be ready. Dinner was delicious. I thank you so much, Mr. Ames. Oh, I thank you. You ordered so well, so expertly. Oh, you really think so? Oh, yes. And it's so nice, positively luxurious for me to be able to let someone else take responsibility, even if it's just a matter of ordering dinner. Well, this is a very good place. It's hard to make a mistake here. Oh, if I'd ordered, I'm sure I'd have made mistakes. I always let such things, Henry. Henry was wonderful, so efficient. I simply relied upon him for everything. Your husband? Yes, my husband. Oh, very, very gently. Because I was so dependent making any kind of decision. Flashes me.   Like Henry. In fact, in many ways you remind me of him. Me? I'm even afraid of the waiter, isn't that ridiculous? Oh, tell me, you're not as shy in handling real business affairs as you are in ordering from a waiter. Oh, I'm worse. I'm always the welder. Well, in that case, I hope Henry left you a well-ordered estate. Perfectly. Henry was so provident. Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. But there are occasional business decisions. Well, to be expected. Any estate, any substantial estate, it is fairly substantial, I imagine. Well, then you must expect an occasional problem. But there must be some member of your family who can advise you. Oh, I've almost no family. Just my nephew Herbert. I'm quite alone. Oh, now really, Mr. Ames, I'm appalled. You'll soon be convinced I'm a total thug of a head in the bar and you'll never want to see me again. Oh, Mrs. Jason, you can't begin to know how wrong you are. In fact, you couldn't be wronger if you tried. Well, that's very sweet. Now, another word about me. I want to hear about you. I kept you in town last week. Business? Oh, dear. Don't tell me the tales. I wouldn't understand. But was it successful? A decision was made. The decision involving method of procedure. At this point I'm convinced the method will be very, very successful, Mrs. Jason. Well, we're being positively stuffy. Call me Ella. Thank you, Ella. You're welcome, Arthur. I feel like dancing. I feel like dancing with a beautiful woman. Will you dance with me, Ella? Oh, I'd love to. Tonight I feel very much like dancing, Arthur. And I say that you are making a mistake, Ella. A bad mistake. You're going into this without... No, but you don't know what you're saying.  I know what I'm doing. No, you don't know enough about him. I know all I need to know, Herbert. Ever since you phoned me, I have been worried. Would I have rushed here to the hotel? Would I interfere like this if I weren't convinced that you've been hasty? I'm sure you mean well, Herbert, but you're very young. Bear in mind, I am ten years older than you when I am not altogether without experience here. I understand, but I have been doing some research on Mr. Angel. Please, Herbert, you sound so businesslike. Hello, please. It's all right. It's charming. You are so young. Will you listen to me? I found out things that you should know. No, Herbert, that will do. You couldn't have found out anything of real importance that I don't know. A woman's instinct, Herbert. In a matter like this, trust a woman's instinct. I prefer facts. Arthur, Aimee, and I will be married tomorrow. That is a fact. You'll see, dear, everything will be perfect. I'm surprised at you. You can't afford to be wrong in a marriage. I'm not. For all you know, if he's what I think he is, he may be dangerous to you. Dangerous to me. Oh, Herbert, my dear. Dangerous, really. Really, darling, that is funny. That is positively funny. But you shouldn't come here to the house. I couldn't help it. You didn't come to us. But I haven't got the money yet. You've got to be patient. Mr. Angel, you're kicking that word to death. What do you think we've been? Look, I tell you, you've got to leave before my wife comes in. Mr. Ames, I like you very much. I hate to have to tell you what Big Tony is getting weary of waiting. So you see... No, no, I'll manage to pay somehow. A little more time. But Mrs. Ames will be in soon. You're telling me she's the suspicious type? Well, of course not. You know better. So why so worried about her seeing me? You think of something to say. Now you're sure she won't give you the money? I can't ask her for it. I don't know how to get it. Mr. Ames, you're in trouble. Unless... Yes. Unless you can find a way to make Mrs. Ames pay off. Say, you're not getting a conscience about her, are you? Are you being funny? What do you expect me to do? Work it out. We want that money a week from today. Or at least a guarantee that the money will be paid. A believable guarantee. We don't care... Stop it! I'm trying. You can't imagine how bad I feel to tell you that that's not enough. Think, Mr. Ames, think. Find a way. You can't just cry. You have to succeed. And I mean have to. Yes, it's life insurance, darling. It's an excellent new type of... very attractive with double indemnity for accidental death. Darling, it sounds so grim, so depressing. You want to talk about such things? Well, I thought I should explain it to you. I'd like to have it signed up today. Oh, don't explain. I believe I understand. You see, I'm not quite as innocent as you may think. I beg your pardon? I know some things and I see right through you. Well, really... We've been married so short a time I was so carefree and I was so unexpectedly... Well, I don't understand it.   I'm thinking of ways and means to provide security and protection for your wives. You're such a dear author, so thoughtful. Well, for a moment... Yes, of course. I simply feel, darling... No, no, no. No more talk of death, darling. Do whatever you think is right. I couldn't advise you anyway. Well, you see, this particular policy is a family one. Each of us becomes the beneficiary of the other. There are four pages of small print, which I'll explain to you. Darling, don't bother. I'll leave it to you. Just tell me what we have to sign and we'll sign it. In just a moment, we will return for the second act of... Suspense. No, dear. I've never been on top of Mount High Point. Oh, it's a magnificent view. You'll love it. How high is it? Oh, a couple of thousand feet. Oh, don't laugh at me, but I'm a little bit afraid. Afraid? Well, of height. Is it perfectly safe? I'll be with you, dear. I'll take care of you. Is there a railing or something? Well, not at the spot I have in mind, but don't worry. Oh, you think I'm a sissy? Oh, no, not at all. But you've got to see this view by moon night I insist. Yes, dear. See? We're almost at the top. Hmm. Nobody else in sight? Who deserts it? No, most people don't come to this particular spot. That's why I like it. And you want to share it with me. I understand. Well, end of the road. Now we walk a few feet. And then, well, then you'll see. This way. I will. I can hardly stand up. I'll take you on, darling. There we are. Now just a few steps to the edge. Oh, Arthur, we're too close. I'm holding you, darling. No. Here. Right at the edge. That's where the view is. Arthur, no, I'm standing. Don't stand me like that, dear. I've got you. I've got you. Get back! We almost fell. Oh, come on quickly. Let's get back to the car. Oh, Arthur, do you realize... When I think of what... Come on. Get into the car, please. And get us away from here. Ella. Ella, believe me. I had a good grip on you. I know. I know. If I'd gone over the edge, you'd have fallen too. The dearest, you could have been killed. What world are you doing? Oh, I'm refitting the top steps on the cellar stair. They were loose. Oh, I'm sorry for the noise. I didn't expect you in so soon. I finished shopping early. Oh, you should have called a handyman, dear. Look at you. Oh. Darling, something's wrong. You look so strange. Really? Well, anyway, it's finished. Steps finished. Oh. Oh, my back. Now, you see, you shouldn't have done this. On a custom type of activity, even for an athlete like you. Yes. Really hurts. I've got to sit a minute. Oh, and I teased you. Is it very bad? Kind of. Ella, I left a sweater down there. Would you mind... Oh, no, not a bit, dear. I'll run down. Did you finish the top step and you forgot to put it in the next two? I did. Well, aren't we lucky? I saw that in time. I could have fallen down and broken my neck. Our food don't look so stricken. I'm not hurt. Everybody makes mistakes. In a moment, we will return for the third act of suspense. And so I phoned you this afternoon, darling. As soon as I got word, the cabin at Big Lake was available. I hope this hasn't rushed you too much. No, not too much, dear. He said you wanted us to leave right after dinner. He gave me plenty of time. Won't coffee, dear? Thanks. Thanks, yes. Uh, you remember to tell Clarabel that we wouldn't need her up there? I let her go right after you called. I told her she'd have three days off. Good, good. More fun to rough it ourselves in such a place. Is the lake really so beautiful? Oh, yes. It's magnificent. Perfect, in fact. And you said we'll have the whole area to ourselves? Mm-hmm. There's absolutely nobody up there right now. That's why we get the off-season rate, including the use of the boating equipment. Mm, sounds ideal. Oh, you can't imagine what it's like in a canoe in the middle of that lake. First thing tomorrow morning, you'll find out. Well, are we about ready? Long drive in the dark. Arthur, dear, you didn't have to pay in advance for the cabin. Well, no. Not even a deposit? No, but, well, I have to pay eventually. What difference does it make? Thrift, darling, thrift. See, I don't intend to go there alone. Alone? What is this? We're both going there. No, no, dear. No, you're not going anywhere. What?  So inept and so foolishly brave, you persist in challenging professionals in their own field. First as a gambler. Ella, I don't know what you mean. Oh, darling, I knew about that from the beginning. And then as a murderer, really, dear, a pathetic, though sadly obvious, a tense, a clueless staircase, and now a canoe. Ella, no, no. And above all, it chooses your first victim of all people, me, darling. You're my fifth. Well, Ella, what are you saying? That is inevitable policy. Both of us insured. Don't you see? I knew I could count on you for that. Ella, Ella, stop it. Stop it. Don't try to get not any more, not after drinking your coffee. I've been here so carefully for you. It's too late. Henry couldn't get up, and before him, Clarence, and before him, William, et cetera, dear. Do you see? I can't. I can't. I can't, dear, and you never could have. Just to thank my nephew, Herbert, who should by this time have never thought you were a mistake. You monster! That's not like you. I almost rude. You know I've no head for business, and a lady must live. Suspense. You've been listening to The Easy Victim, written for suspense by Harold Huber. Burden tonight's story, where Elspeth Eric gets Ella. Paul McGrath is art. Bob Reddick is Herbert. And Leon Janney is Don. Produced and directed by Paul Roberts. Listen again next week, when we return with Re-Enfrey, a story of man's first flight into space. Another tale, well calculated to keep you in... Suspense. On CBS Radio.


And now, SiliconANGLE TV and wikibond.org present a focus spotlight. Live from Las Vegas and VMworld 2011, host John Furrier and Dave Vellante, a human being. Cloud Conversions will support from HP Cloud System, the most complete integrated platform for building and managing clouds. Okay, we're back at VMworld 2011. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE.com, and I'm here with my co-host. I'm Dave Vellante of wikibond.org, and this is our continuous coverage of VMware Live 2011. We're here with Richard Taggart of SHI, and we're going to talk cloud.  Yes. I love to hear that, because a lot of people at Marketing Cloud, your eyes are actually building them. So first of all, tell us what you do at SHI, tell us a little bit about SHI, and then let's get into it. At SHI, we have a relentless focus on our IT customers. We've been in business for 22 years and grew from a small sort of mom and pop billion dollar reseller to over a three billion dollar global company selling products and services. So about 18 months ago, we decided we wanted to get into the cloud business, but we really wanted to take an approach that was different and unique to a lot of our competition in the area. So we spent a lot of time talking to our customers. Specifically our IT customers, CIOs, IT executives about what they were looking for in cloud. And we came up with a number of, I believe, highly differentiated services and products in the market that specifically aim at production workloads for IT. So in your role there? My role is I'm one of the lead partners in the firm, the head of the strategic consulting organization. So we have a combination of professional services to work in cloud as well as cloud products and services that we've announced this week. So I would think a lot of that cloud action starts with you. You got to figure out what it is. What can go there. Exactly. So you're providing presumably upfront assessment services and consulting. We have spent a lot of time talking to IT executives about what they were looking for in a cloud. And what we found really was besides the obvious things security that you all hear about is we found that IT executives really looking for a highly flexible model for how they would do computing in the future. One where they could place capacity anywhere on the planet that they wanted capacity. And that's what we've done. So we've built out a cloud system that we can put either on-prem within a customer's data center managed remotely from our knock or placed anywhere on the planet that that capacity makes sense for that customer. One of the things Dave and I are talking about constantly, this year is this whole services angle. And the services business is being transformed by cloud and virtualization mobility and big data. All these things are the confluence of massive change. So the channel partners and partners of the big companies like HP, IBM and EMCs of the world are in a good position to go out and transform these companies. So what is the biggest challenge that you've heard from customers that you guys are pivoting on to deliver solutions on? Is it, hey, help me figure it out? Is it, hey, I want to just do test dev? I want some real solutions. I want to do some big data. What's the current state of where the market is? We went out and interviewed hundreds, literally hundreds of our customers over the last few years and there were two issues that always came to the top. Every conversation. One was how to leverage the cloud ecosystem and cloud technologies for business advantage. Every CEO wanted to do that. And the other issue was always mobility. Sometimes they were, the consumerization of IT, it's often called, but how do they deal with the proliferation of different device types that are out there and be able to deliver applications securely to those environments? We have been running professional services on that for quite some time, helping customers build out BDI infrastructures, cloud infrastructures and so on. What we did that was unique this week is we've come out with cloud products and services, both a cloud data center, which we've opened up, our first data center, as well as having managed private clouds that we can put on prem within a customer's data center. I know when I think back to the recession of 2008, 2009, a lot of people jumped on cloud. Yes. We think it accelerated some cloud adoption by probably 12 to 18 months, but a lot of people made some mistakes along the way. What are the biggest mistakes you see people making that are thinking about going to cloud or actually trying to do cloud? Jumping without a plan. Because of the difficult economic times, a lot of customers really started to move before they really had thought through what it is they needed to do, and in some cases really lost control of the initiative. Sometimes the various people within the organization, a number of CIOs would tell me that they were afraid they were having developers go off and develop on clouds using their credit card as opposed to going through the normal IT channels. And they were very concerned with being able to provide the kinds of business services they wanted to provide, do it economically, but also with a level of control. And we at SHI really understand the issues surrounding the need for IT to have a well controlled, secure, high performance environment. What's the number one out of control variable that you've seen, to be specific on that? What have you seen as, okay, when it gets out of control, is it losing people? Or is it the security? Is it just... Sometimes it's actually losing control of the development process. You can have easily rogue developers within an organization go off and develop something, but what happens very often is you use control of the data that's associated with, and the data goes out of the control of IT, which sometimes can have horrendous consequences for those organizations. When we have IT practitioners on in CIOs, in fact we had Mark Egan on this morning, CIO of VMware, and he said what a lot of CIOs tell us is that it's people process and technology, and technology is not the hardest. Having said that, Cloud obviously touches all three, probably in a way that's more disruptive than anything we've seen in a while. Yes. Maybe ever. How are IT organizations changing, and how do you predict they'll change as a result of Cloud? Most IT organizations are rapidly moving towards working the layer between IT and their business counterparts, so you see a lot more focus on business, analytics, business analysis, things like business relationship managers that a lot of these IT organizations work in order to really understand business better, and they want to work more on the application layer. They want to basically save dollars, they want to modernize the infrastructure using Cloud technologies, save those dollars that would normally have been spent on infrastructure, redeploy it on applications, and redeploy a lot of their staff around really crucial business issues. We had a conversation earlier about security and just overall moving to the Cloud and all the opportunities, but one of the things that's come out of our conversations here in theCUBE is the balance between compliance requirements and actually doing the right thing. It's there. You have to check the boxes and compliance. A lot of these large enterprises, you mentioned stick with policies, there's the rogue developer that's dysfunctional, but might be the model. There's been a comment going on. What's the balance between compliance and the right thing? Sometimes they're not always in check. That's a great question. I joined SHI actually from being a CIO in a large Fortune 50, and compliance was the largely growing expense that we had actually in the budget was regulatory compliance issues. For us, what that meant was we wanted to give IT organizations complete flexibility in how it managed Cloud. We want to be able to provide capacity when they needed it, where they needed it, the benefits of Cloud, but none of the disadvantages of Cloud technologies, which very often are in worrying about compliance issues. Worrying about data issues, data loss, compliance, and so on. The question, are you seeing people designing more for compliance, less for compliance? It's a design question, right? You have to get the compliance checked off, but how do you advise those customers and those environments? What we try and do is go in our services side, we try and help customers with an analysis of their application portfolio, and we do a lot of looking at the data as well, doing data loss protection, engagements with our customers, so they understand really where their data and applications need to be. Some applications are under very rigid requirements and guidelines, but large numbers of applications aren't, and a CIO really needs to know how his portfolio, his or her portfolio is built up to understand where they can best deploy dollars around compliance, around regulatory issues, and where they need to be able to deploy dollars into new innovation. And so do candidates for cloud fall out of that, or is it, or you're seeing the customers say, look, I want to put the whole thing in the cloud. Some customers will put the whole thing in the cloud, as long as you can do something like provide on-premise cloud, which is one of the reasons we went to this sort of hybrid architecture. Every organization has stringent, as some applications with highly stringent data requirements. It could be they don't want data outside of a country, they don't want data outside of the four walls of their data center. So it's important for them to be able to put the applications where that makes the most sense for regulatory compliance reasons. So John, of course, is from Silicon Valley, and one of the sayings out there of many is fail fast. IT gets a... You can't go with the data though, Dave. See, when you got the data, you can't just fail it. Oh, I screwed that out. The data is now out there, so I think the data, having the data is the center point of the design is critical. So what I'm going with this is, you know, the whole concept of fail fast is fail fast, you can move on and get to the successes. In IT, as we know, some projects fail. In fact, some people would say many, you know, third of projects fail. Whether that's a true number or not, I don't know, but enough to give CEOs heartburn. Does cloud change that dynamic? Not necessarily making the project succeed, but allowing organizations to fail faster and not have as much pain with sunk costs. Do you see that change in the dynamic of IT and business alignment? It absolutely changes the dynamic of time to market. It really isn't an abler. These technologies, an abler of speed, be able to rapidly provision within five to 20 minutes the capacity you need, just pay for what you need. You can focus your time, effort, dollars on the application, which is really where the value is, and less of those dollars on setting up and maintaining your own infrastructure. So HP is a big services organization.  You guys do a lot of services, consulting services, and so how's that all work? Where do you pick up and where do they leave off? HP is one of our big partners, as is VMware, and we have a number of other strategic partners, but the approach that we took to the marketplace when we put together our cloud products and services was we went out and looked at the entire ecosystem, put out an RFI to all the major providers and decided what were all the best of breed technologies that we could integrate together to essentially create the equivalent of a cloud in the box for our customers. Having done that, we then added additional capacity around operations, developed some of our own codes, made some of our own patents, in order to fill what we saw with some gaps in the marketplace. But we became an HP partner in cloud because fundamentally many of their components were the best of breed components that we could use for the kind of high performance, high availability redundant sort of infrastructure we wanted to put together. All right, Richard Taggart of SHI, thank you for sharing your story actually deploying clouds, bringing your CIO experience to us. Thank you very much for sharing that. Good luck with the continued success. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Good deal.


what is terminal, what are some usage examples, then I'll talk a tiny bit about myself and then we'll jump into the actual meat of the talk where we'll touch on some of the tools that we've been using and then a little bit of just general tips about how to write rust systems, I guess. So a little bit about terminal. It's a complete container management suite. It's basically the value proposition. We start very large containers in seconds like anywhere on the cluster. You can do full disk and ramp snapshots also in seconds and then load back from them or load them on other machines or anything like that very quickly. You can teleport running containers from one machine to another with like zero downtime effectively. There is really fast resource scaling if you want to add more CPU, less CPU, more RAM, that kind of thing to your containers. And we have a very efficient like diff based distributed storage layer which like enables a lot of the speed of startup and that kind of thing. So some of the usage examples of things that, oh yeah, we also have a really nice web interface that allows you to do things like share a terminal basically between multiple clients. So like I could have my container running and be in the middle of a debugging session and send a link to one of my other devs on my team and they can also hop in and maybe I'm working remotely and like you can do all kinds of really cool stuff with that. So some of the usage examples of interesting things that people do with us are we, they create many copies of for instance, their production database to be able to run integration tests very quickly for like CI or even just development. You know, if you're running some complicated server and you can easily pull down basically a full copy of your database locally and then run all kinds of tests and queries against that the CI things are gonna work out. And you can also with the capability to launch many instances very quickly you can launch thousands of like isolated environments that people can use for things like, we're used by like Corsair and Code Academy for like online education and you can do all kinds of pretty cool things with that. So, tiny bit about me. I really like open source and Rust. I'm an engineer at Terminal.  All right, that's enough about me. So, a lot of the success that we've seen in using Rust in production has been for basically thin infrastructure services, things that need to be reliable especially with regards to the threading. Rust is a really, really nice concurrency model that you do really kind of ambitious things without like being afraid that you're screwing it up which is really great. Things that need to be really fast that have like very low resource requirements or that need to very tightly manage the resources that they do use and things that need to low, that you want to have a low maintenance burden. You want your, you want to write the service, you want it to be correct, you want it to be well tested and you want that to be like the end of it. Now you can move on to other projects. So the things that we've done with this are we built a networking firewall for intra cluster routing, a server that deals with basically metadata for a whole cluster of containers that tracks ancestry of containers and snapshots and what comes from what that is used by the distributed storage system and a cluster job and container scheduler which was going to be run in C++. So that's a win. And some more to come which as we'll continue to use Rust we'll see new things coming along. So some of the tools that we've developed or used is our fork of Apache Thrift which is an RPC system which is available on GitHub and also on craze.io and that enables basically Rust support. So you can write your services in a single language agnostic Thrift file and you can generate, you can write your server in Rust that you can also, there are all kinds of, you can write clients in many different languages including Rust. Shout out to Spackler for sending some patches in for this that enabled like way better errors and optionality support. It's turnall-thrift-on-craze.io. So I've talked a little bit about the internals of this before but effectively what we did is we have a very thin C++ front end that is integrated with the rest of the Thrift like cogeneration libraries and what that does is it just generates calls to Rust macros and the Rust macros actually do most of the heavy, like most of like the heavy lifting in the cogeneration but really we also use traits to sort of avoid generating a lot of code. The previous implementation used the C++ generator the whole way and it would kind of recursively generate a lot of code that was sort of repeated depending on your interface and by using macros and traits instead we can like force that, we can let the compiler do a lot of that work for us which is really nice. For the curious the macros are in code.rs. They're a pretty good example of kind of like a complicated use of macros that's not necessarily trying to add like new language features but is really just like expanding things. So some of the pain points that we had for using this are that the generate code takes quite some time to build. If you have a large interface you're generating potentially a lot of code that LVM needs to optimize and Rusty needs to do all of its stuff for. So one of the ways that we have gone around this is basically by faking incremental code generation by moving things on to its own crate. This is kind of a repeated thing that we found that is a good thing to do. It helps get around a lot of the problems or the not really the problem but the fact that Rusty kind of takes a long time to build like very large crates. You can break things out pretty easily. And we also used cargo as awesome like build system to be able to kind of build the like cogen and test the code like on every change to even a through file which is pretty nice. Generated code is macros. So sometimes when you're after you're trying to figure out like how are things actually work what is the exact interface that is actually generated. It's not super clear because even if you look at the generated code all you see is macro calls and those could expand to anything. So a nice solution to this you can just use cargo doc it'll generate nice really understandable output where you can see like the traits and how everything is actually generated not just the sort of unreadable macro spew. Another really interesting tool that we've used a lot that has great support is Postgres. So there's a great driver also written by Spackler which we've had really nothing but success in using. We find that it's like very well designed. The interactions are usually type driven which is really nice and that means that you can get rid of a lot of errors or just kind of force things to be compile time versus kind of we're rewriting one of our services that used to be in Python to use Rust instead and we found that we can get like we've eliminated a ridiculous amount of errors by just like introducing typing. We also use cargo's bin system where you can have like many kind of sub tasks or different things that you can use cargo to run for your project. We use those to like set up and tear down the database and do all kinds of operations like load the schema and stuff like that which is really convenient for kind of testing and local development that everything is in one place and you interact with the whole application through just one tool. We also use from the traits in this from SQL and to SQL which function is like a really, really super thin like very bare bones or like RM that you can use to sort of like isolate the places where you translate between code. I guess I can take the question. Yeah, so what you have to do, the question was how do we get the type information from the database? Do we like read the schema or something like that? So it's not, you know, it is not that well coupled yet. There are some kind of experiments where I'm sure it's a fact but I could tell you a lot more about the details here but there are some experiments where you can use a syntax extension to actually communicate with the database at compile time to get this information but the way that it's done right now is you basically just have to know and then you tell it what the types are and you can sort of isolate this into a small component and like using from SQL and to SQL and you can also create your own traits for like converting between a row and something like that but the interface basically you ask for something of a specific type and it will like deal with getting the raw value and turning it into a nice like type representation for you. You get a panic, which is a little unfortunate but you can also catch this in terms of results but for the most part you sort of just know the right answer so if you were gonna have a result you don't wrap it anyway and you might as well just use the panic and default. So those are some of the tools that we've used. I'm gonna get into a little bit into some tips and then like tricks and things that we've learned using Rust. So just some tips for writing reliable Rust. Use the type system to your advantage. Rust has a really excellent type system that you can encode all sorts of interesting variants and this can really, like this can go a long way towards just making your code a lot more like stable and easy to work with and like not have runtime errors. String typing causes an excessive number of bugs. You can almost always avoid it in Rust with the tools that the type system gives you. You probably should. You can factor code using generics and out macros so I know that you know we just talked about thrift that's using macros to do all this code generation but by using traits in the existing system we can actually avoid most of that code generation and for the most part generics are checked and that yields just much better code structure than trying to use macros to accomplish the same sort of things. You can keep unsafe, contained, and tested. This is sort of like a really important point if you actually want to benefit from Rust's safety guarantees. Sometimes if you're interacting with like very low level APIs you're calling it to see you need to do unsafe. It can be very tempting to just mix in these like FFI calls into your normal code especially if you're only doing a few but that usually makes the code a lot harder to maintain. It's a lot better to sort of segregate the unsafe into as small a section as possible and then have that expose the safety of the eye and like heavily test it as well. We use RAII and borrowing for basically all resource management. So not just file descriptors and memory you can really use it to manage all kinds of things access to the database like any number of examples can you use it for some forms of access control and a quick shout out to cow for being pretty underrated I think but actually really amazing for writing very flexible and very efficient code. Some points on maintainability. I'm gonna say avoid trade objects for the most part. They're not very flexible in the sense that you have to make the choice up front about exactly what traits are going to be included in a trade object and this can be really inconvenient especially with interactions with OIBITS which stands for opt-in building traits. These are things like send, sync. Those are the ones that come from the standard library at least so you have to when you make a trade object you have to decide upfront whether it's going to implement send and sync and sometimes you make the wrong choice and it can be a lot of work to go back and make this change later. Use generics, use the sites, the usage sites which you need send and sync can just add it just a lot more flexible than the trade object set up. Be very careful with panics, your writing code think about what happens if you receive a callback you have to be sure you have to be ready for that callback to panic and that yeah. You have to unify concepts using traits as much as possible. This allows you to as I said use traits and use generics to factor your code and kind of like drive interface design and design interfaces conservatively with a focus on stability. I'm gonna get into this a little bit more in a sec. Also use cargo for everything which I already touched on briefly but we'll get a little bit more into. So in terms of conservative interfaces a lot of this is take inspiration from standards. Standard is designed to be very easily extensible it's designed to be stable, it's designed to not break and to be more importantly for people to be able to add APIs and add new things without breaking old code and a lot of these lessons can also be applied to your own libraries. So some of these things are using private fields with accessors instead of public fields for the most part, it can be really nice to have a public field in the sense that you don't have to write a immutable accessor and immutable accessor and all of these things but often you actually only want to allow certain forms of access or you want to be able to change the underlying type to do something more efficient in the future and using accessors makes this all a lot easier. You can also much more easily rename things or deprecate certain things if they're methods versus fields. You can use from as ref and into to extend like pre-existing APIs if you have something that takes a concrete type and you want it to also be able to take like other variants of that type you can use these traits to like backwards compatibly extend your interface which is really, really convenient. Result is often better than option for basically anything that's not like a get operation on a data structure, something along those lines. Not only does result work with try but it also allows you to add information in the case of an error if you want to do so later. If you started with option moving to results is like almost always a breaking change whereas just changing the error type and your results are adding more information to it especially if it is already a type that only has accessors is really easy and usually won't break things. Errors should be types with typed metadata. If you use strings for your errors it is both basically impossible to catch errors and it's very easy to kind of break things and not be able to extend your error types very well. So touching on a little bit of getting the most out of cargo, there are many traits that I owe releases, this is sort of a thing that's kind of taking hold in the ecosystem at least for large packages that in their pre 1.0 versions they will try to not break on patch releases and only break on like 0.x releases. So pinning versions to like some like 0.x version will can save you a lot of breakage that comes from like the ecosystem even if it's like the standard library stable. You can use bins for utility tasks so we talked about this a little bit with Postgres and but basically using, you can use multiple bins, you can set up things to like run your tests, create databases, like tear down databases all that kind of thing. You can split code into crates plus path depths to reduce your build time and sort of fake incremental code generation or incremental compilation generally speaking which actually hopefully we won't have to do in the future as incremental compilation actually becomes a thing. And you can run all of your tests via hashtag test. We have at least one situation where we had a pre-existing test suite that uses like the Python thrift client and we wanted to just call that. So the easiest thing to set up is you just create a folder or a single file with one hashtag test and it can just call into the, you can call your Python test runner directly. And a little bit of general rest and production advice before I tie up the ecosystem is in a really early state, contribute. There's a lot of territory that's still unexplored and if you know your company is the one that is building those libraries, you can get a lot of recognition and a lot of goodwill from the community. The other side of that coin is that Rust has a really strong open source community and you should use it. Like as demonstrated by our thrift implementation, we threw that out there and we immediately started getting contributions from the community and those like helped us enhance our features a lot and save this bunch of work, which is great. You should write and talk about your experiences. If you're using Rust and production or really using Rust at all, you are an early adopter and your message is very important and a lot of people are interested in it. And the last thing, this is really useful. Use it liberally. You can just force everyone to have to document their code and you just can't land a patch if it's not documented, which is great. This has been Rust and Production, that's all. Thank you very much.