Okay, we're back, this is the House Healthcare Committee. It's about 10, 15. We've taken a short break for ourselves and our witnesses. And we're now returning to continue to hear from and ask questions to Ina Bakas, Director of Healthcare Reform, about the all payer model and health issues at the federal level. So before we left, I think there were several other questions that folks had and Ina had not gotten a chance to finish her presentation, but again, I had warned her ahead of time that this is important for us to be able to ask lots of questions and likely we'll be doing this again because there are more questions and probably fit with our timeframe. So I think I see Representative Goldman has a hand and so I'll turn to Representative Goldman and then we'll see where we are and see if Ina has more to present and I'm sure there'll be more questions. So Representative Goldman. Thank you Ina for putting up with all these questions, it's hard. It's so complex, right? I was just looking at slide seven, I guess, it was one of the last slides you had up and then you were talking about the third year in a row and the contrast between fee for service as opposed to, I guess, paid prospectively is the language. And if I was wondering if you had any correlated outcomes for patients in those populations? I do have another slide to share about the quality observations that have been made in the Medicaid program with the ACO contract and Medicaid has the longest contract in this particular value-based payment. And so I can share my screen again and share that information with you. And so the next slide here, I have some information to share about program observations, including, or I think I do, maybe I don't. There have been incremental improvements in quality performance during this period. So there has been movement in the right direction during the same period on the quality metrics that are included in the contract between DIVA and OneCare Vermont and those quality metrics are related to the population health outcomes that the all payer model is seeking to influence, which do include reducing deaths due to suicide and drug overdose, increasing access to primary care and reducing the prevalence and morbidity of chronic disease. So I'm not suggesting that through this payment model and contract relationship that those high level goals have been addressed. I am suggesting that services and healthcare services that would contribute to those goals that we have seen incremental quality performance in those areas. We do have a quality model framework that the quality framework for the all payer model as well as the performance in the Medicaid quality program in particular that we have very versed expertise in the Department of Health Access. And if you wanted to do a deeper dive into that and look specifically at those quality outcomes that have been incrementally improving and to understand how they relate to the high level population health goals, we would be happy. I would be happy to arrange that presentation for you. It's certainly worth some time on a deeper dive and with my colleagues that have a more depth in that area. I just wanna comment if I may. In that, I think the financial piece is really important but I really wanna see it coupled with quality outcomes because what's the point if we don't have improvement in population health? So that's sort of an important piece. So whenever that makes sense, that would be great. Great, and I agree with you. So I'm gonna, my own set of questions I'd rare to ask as well, but I'm gonna turn to again, perhaps I don't know who was on first here. So the three of you probably do, so go for it. I'm last. On the current queue. Okay, does that mean Alyssa's first? Oh, go quickly. Just on your last slide, I just wanna clarify something. For the third year in a row, ACO participating providers who were paid prospectively. What providers and what provider type are we talking about? Who's paid prospectively currently? That's a mix of providers and provider types when OneCare talks with you next, I think they can tell you exactly the detail on that. Hospitals have been receiving fixed perspective payments. And then I would, again, I don't wanna speak on behalf of OneCare, but there is also the primary care practices that have been receiving the comprehensive, participating in the comprehensive primary care payment. I mean, I'm a little alarmed by that because it's put in here as if it's a good thing, but we know that when you spend more on primary care, you actually save in the system and spending, if a provider who's, a primary care provider who's spending less than expected, that's not a good thing. These results are. Patients are not getting enough care. These results are aggregated results for the Medicaid program. And I don't believe that they speak to primary care specifically. I would invite some, again, some more in-depth look at this, but this is the whole of those providers that were reimbursed differently than fee for service. And so in aggregate, at the end of the day, there was less spending than expected spent on the services within their control, and that less may be in services that are not primary care at all. It may be a different set of services entirely. Okay, I'll save my question then, I guess, for OneCare. Thank you. Okay. Representative Peterson. Thank you. The same slide. The second bullet, I'm gonna speak to just what Alyssa spoke to, kind of. When I see the results of that, again, I don't know whether to use alarming to use that word, but I'm wondering if they're spending less on services because they are making less. I wonder how are we keeping our healthcare providers happy in this state as far as what they can earn based on, I mean, let's face it, you know, to be a physician or even a physician's assistant, these folks have spent a lot of time, effort, sweat, pain, suffering and everything to get to where they are. And, you know, I think 99% of them are doing it because they call to do it, but there is the expectation you're gonna make a pretty good living. Are we, how does their income under our plan compare with the fee for service model that they've worked under before? Is there any comparison at all? I don't know. I think for each individual participating provider that could look like a different, that picture could look differently depending on a myriad of factors, the payer mix, the number of their patients that are participating, that are attributed to the ACO. There's a lot of factors there in terms of the overall financial picture. What I can speak to is again, going back to that slide that demonstrates the scale of participation in the Medicaid model. I do think that providers who have a relationship with Medicaid are choosing to be reimbursed in this fashion rather than the traditional fee for service because it is advantageous for them. It provides predictability. It provides stability. They can plan and work within a budget and they understand how much money they're going to get versus in fee for service, certainly, each additional service is rewarded and then there are also times where fee for service patterns of utilization change. People do not, the demand for care may shift in a significant way and dollars that you anticipated and relied on to make your budget are not available. And a great example of this is what happened in the early months of the pandemic when the healthcare system was shut down and not able to offer elective services, where there was choice involved, so non-emergency services, the healthcare system wasn't offering those. Those providers that had this fixed perspective payment that were being paid upfront at the beginning of each month, regardless of how many people walk through their door, those providers enjoyed more stability with this Medicaid payment arrangement during that very disruptive time. I mean, that's kind of the, that's probably the best example of how a fixed model can influence the stability of a provider's business, but there are other instances of that, that happen at a lesser degree pretty consistently. And I think that providers have elected to participate in the Medicaid program because they prefer the stability to the uncertainty that is also a part of a fee for service delivery model. So with that in mind, so I can somehow understand this, this would be like an employee at a company being salaried versus an employee at a company working a piece labor by the job. Is that fair to say that under our system, we're salaried, so you're going to get a set salary based on all these factors you crunch together versus somebody who gets so much for a service they perform? I think that that's a very, Okay. Very fair analogy, yes. Yes. Okay, okay. All right, thank you. Representative, don't you represent for us? So I want to go back to the question of quality measures where I think you said, we're showing, we're moving in the right direction, some positive indicators there. But I think we need to distinguish from what I'm hearing the difference between process indicators and outcome indicators because our outcome indicator on suicide and drug overdose, I mean, we're having this really significant spike in drug overdose and we have a higher than average suicide rate that's not improving. So we're not seeing outcome improvements. You're saying, I think you're saying they're process indicators and I think we had a bit of a conversation maybe a few years ago about whether those process indicators or progress are robust enough when we say we've made progress. And the example that I know of is, after somebody in a mental health crisis goes to an emergency department, we say it's good you've met the quality standard if the person gets a follow-up visit within 30 days after being in the emergency room with a crisis, which it seems like if we really wanna reduce suicide rate, we want that to be two days. So I mean, I feel like we still have a real disconnect there and that we shouldn't leave an impression that when you say progress, you're indicating on these process measures like 30 days after the emergency department getting a follow-up rather than saying we're making any progress on the outcome targets of the all payer model. Am I right? There's a mix of measures within the quality framework. I am differentiating between the measures that are at the ACO payer contract level and the measures that are actually not at the ACO level at all that are the statewide population health outcomes which in the agreement, it is the state of Vermont accountable to progress on those metrics rather than- Those are the ones we're not meeting at all as opposed to the ACO contracts there which are like the 30 day after and they're making progress on meeting. Is that correct? I hesitate on the not meeting the high level at all because I haven't looked, I would encourage you to get the most current assessment of where we are on the high level because I don't know that that's the case that we're not meeting the high level at all. I do know and agree that we are experiencing with respect to drug overdose and suicide, a lot of challenges. I don't dispute that at all but there's the prevalence and morbidity of chronic diseases also measure as well as access to primary care. Right, so we might be making progress on some of them but certainly on that global health outcome we know we're not making progress because the numbers are going way up. So I'm gonna step in here and ask as well and I think this is an example of how does this, how does entering into an agreement with stated goals, et cetera, get impacted by extraordinary circumstance? We are in the midst of what has to be the most extraordinary disruption of our personal healthcare systems as well as our system of healthcare in the state of Vermont. And I think that those are, I can remember prior to ever thinking there was a pandemic on the horizon, these questions being asked, what if something highly disruptive happens? How do we measure where we are? And I think, I mean, clearly we're there and maybe just speaking to that briefly would be helpful. I think that when we were negotiating the disagreement, we did name potential of if there were a pandemic and I feel chagrin now to say that we said, well, that's not gonna happen. And now we know better. And so when we evaluate this model, especially with smack dab in the middle of it, a global health pandemic, that is going to be taken into consideration that how people would usually access care was disrupted with regard to the healthcare system. We did and have seen an incredible innovation with telehealth, but it does not meet all needs. And then of course, just how our social fabric is changed and the isolation that we are experiencing in trying to stay safe certainly has an impact here that is one that the healthcare system, an ACO or otherwise alone is not within this agreement expected to be able to address in this moment. So I think it just raises just the broad question of like can we proceed with really evaluating this as a model given the level of disruption we have experienced and is the federal government prepared to continue to or does it make sense for us to continue to try to move forward and use this as a model evaluation? I mean, I just think that question needs to be asked. Well, I think it's certainly fair that the model can be in and is being evaluated by independent evaluators that are contracted with the federal government. It is being actively evaluated by an independent group and that evaluation is going to take into consideration these particular and incredibly unprecedented circumstances. I also think again, we can see clearly what appears to be working within the model and what appears not to be working and that's why we suggested we didn't suggest we created an improvement plan that contains within it recommendations to improve throughout the remainder of this performance period and some of those recommendations have been fully implemented and have shown an impact such as having a hospital participate a hospital in it that has not been able to participate up until this point with the Medicare program now participating in the model. That is an impact of carrying out a recommendation in the improvement plan. So I think there's different types of evaluation that can happen. There's the technical independent evaluation and that work that will determine whether the model generates savings and improves quality relative to its established goals that probably is going to make some adjustments relative to those goals to acknowledge, like I said, the circumstances of this global health pandemic and then there's what we can say as the real-time continuous improvement that we are actively engaged in as we look to complete this performance period having been interrupted by a very significant challenge to the state and all of not just this healthcare system but to all of us and that we can step into the final year of this state and federal contract continuing to promote those changes that we can observe as being necessary to better performance. So thank you. I'm gonna turn to Representative Houghton who hasn't weighed in previously with a question and then we'll hear the other questions as well. And I'm also hoping that we, given the time that we have that the improvement requirement, I'm stumbling over the right terminology here but I think there may be, so make sure that we have some sense of that before we finish. So Representative Houghton. Thank you, Chair. And actually that was gonna be one of my questions. We seem to be short on time with Ina this morning and so I was hoping to also get to the reboot and then specifically my question is I'd like to understand that the timeline and the players involved with negotiating a new contract as we are closing in on the end of our session, I wanna make sure we're clear as to next steps. I can answer the question about timeline with respect to a proposal for a subsequent agreement. I can do that first and then turn to the improvement plan and the recommendations therein. We are required via the agreement for Medicare's participation in this model. We are required to submit a proposal for a potential subsequent agreement at the end of performance year four, which is where we are now and the end of this year will be December of 2021. That's a proposal. And so I think of that as a starting place for discussions with CMMI about what a next agreement could look like. When we negotiated the agreement, originally we submitted what we called a term sheet. After submitting that term sheet, we went back and forth with our partners at CMMI I believe we submitted the term for nearly a year from the official submission of the term sheet. We went back and forth for nearly a year to shape what ultimately would be the agreement. And during that time, we provided testimony, I believe to this committee as well as to others in the legislative body to update and describe what it was that we were working on and developing at that time. So we would absolutely be providing for that same transparency into the process mirroring how we did so previously. Before we submit a proposal, however, as I said earlier on, we do want to continue to gather information about what is working, what is not working, what we should be addressing that we're not addressing in a relationship with Medicare. One of those examples is that Medicare does not pay for the delivery of mental health and substance use disorder services by a licensed clinician. It only pays for a master's level clinician delivery of services given what we are experiencing with the increase in substance use disorder with mental health concerns with deaths due to drug overdose in our state. I believe we're very warranted in looking to Medicare to partner with us in that way. That's an example of something that we could be thinking about for a future agreement. And that's what we want to be collecting information about as we reflect on what we've accomplished in these last four years. And certainly reflect on what has been changed because of this global health pandemic that we need to be thinking differently about in the future. So prior to the submission of the proposal, which will be as required at the end of this year, we will engage with the public, we will engage also with the payer and provider stakeholders that are participating in this model, not to mention One Care Vermont, ACO, any other ACOs that would become active in the state. We will engage in that process of soliciting feedback and developing a proposal with that feedback, taking that feedback into consideration. That process, again, spring, summertime, which I always, I guess it becomes summer in June. Or today after the rain, everything greens up. Can I just have a couple of quick follow-up questions? So you keep saying we, who is the primary for this process? The agency of human services is through the agency of human services as a signatory on the agreement as well as Green Mountain, we would be working with the Green Mountain Care Board as they are co-signatories on the agreement. The agency of human services is definitely committed to ensuring that this engagement process happens to inform this subsequent proposal. That's what I mean by the we. I said a lot of words there, but I think the signatory is on the agreement. And then one last question. So a proposal in December 31st, 2021, when does a final agreement have to be signed to ensure we don't lapse if we choose to move forward with another agreement? A year from then. A year from then, thank you. Okay. Again, I wanna make certain that we have and we have probably 10 minutes at this point before we wanna switch gears. I wanna make sure that we have a picture of what the improvement plan expectations were that were set forth by the community. We've been through some of this before, but I think it's be helpful to at least review it in anticipation of our further testimony from one care as well. The plan has four categories of recommendations. They focus on the work between the state of Vermont and our federal partners to maximize our performance in the agreement and to address some aspects of the agreement that we can see clearly aren't working in our favor. Another category of recommendations are those that relate to how the Agency of Human Services prioritizes healthcare reform activities and organizes healthcare reform activities in the agency in service of those high level goals, certainly and as well to be aligned with the overall objectives of this reform. Excuse me, there are also recommendations that are regulatory in nature and directed more so at how the Green Mountain Care Board gathers information about the ACO and looks at its activities in light of value-based payments rather than fee-for-service payments. And finally, there's a category of recommendations that are directed at One Care Vermont because it is the only participating ACO and that are focused on how One Care Vermont strengthens its leadership strategy how One Care Vermont improves in its work as the convener and as the leader of a network of providers that is statewide and that is invested in continuous improvement in terms of healthcare quality and value. So I can move pretty quickly through these. I'll move along now. Yeah, I think we should move quickly through them. And if it's okay with you, I can move so quickly as to kind of skip over things that I've already talked about with you. We do think it's important that we work with CMS to revise the scale targets in this agreement because there are some aspects of the scale targets that through implementation we realize are absolutely not realistic. There are persons that we're accountable to have attributed to an alternative payment model. It cannot be attributed to an alternative payment model and those should be removed from the denominator. That's a Vermonter, for instance, who has a primary care provider and gets the preponderance of care out of state. So Florida, for instance. We, I talked to you about the reduction of the risk corridor thresholds for 2021. We also, I talked to you already about the guidance that we'd like to see for the critical access hospitals. I should say that this category of recommendations does involve, excuse me, collaboration with CMS. And we do have a relatively new federal administration. That federal administration is also very busy addressing the global health pandemic. Leadership, leadership, new leadership is falling into place. And with new leadership falling into place, we can better have these conversations. It is taking, it takes time no matter what with the federal transition. I do think it is taking just a little bit more time but we are starting to see that leadership fall into place. It's very exciting that we'll be able to start talking with CMMI as represented by the leadership that the new administration has put in place. So that's very exciting. We also, I talked to you about this as well already. We're concentrating on how the Medicare payment mechanism can mirror the Medicaid payment mechanism. Providers have demonstrated that the Medicaid payment mechanism is appealing. The Medicare model is not as advanced in paying differently as Medicaid. And so we want to work with our federal partners to bring Medicare along into more alignment with Medicaid which is fully in the spirit of this agreement. The Medicare 2021 benchmark, the Green Mountain Care Board can talk to you more about this, but it was very important that that process be one that took the global health pandemic into consideration because it was absolutely a complete anomaly in terms of the experience. And so of healthcare during that time when it's continuing now, and that does influence how you set a budget appropriately. We also recommended that we collaborate with CMMI to encourage HRSA, the Health Resources and Services Administration to prioritize value-based payment for FQHCs. This is a longer term recommendation, as you can see here. Also something we're really excited about because I believe that there is real interest in FQHCs participating in value-based payment and in participating in and being able to be a part of that payment that is more fixed in nature, more predictable. This category is directed at the AHS, the Agency of Human Services and how we prioritize healthcare reform as well as how we organize our activities. One, with respect to commercial participation in this model, the recommendation seven talks about outreach into non-participating self-funded commercial groups. One of those large groups of commercial self-funded included includes the state employee plan. That's the state employee plan was not participating with OneCare Vermont. We recommended that it should participate with OneCare Vermont and it is now for this performance year. There is more work to do on outreaching to other large self-funded groups, but we have accomplished this recommendation regarding the state employee plan. That's another significant development in this model that we succeeded in seeing even during this global health pandemic. We also are prioritizing the integration of claims and clinical data in the health information exchange. This is important information that can be made available to providers, that can be made available to accountable care organizations in the state. That is critical for informing care delivery and a value-based design. Providers need to both be able to understand a clinical picture for those in their panels as well as a claims picture. That claims picture gives the providers the tools that they need to manage within the budget. And so to this end, the health information exchange work has been organized in the secretary's office and in the office of health reform in the agency, where I sit as the director of health reform and we are going to be integrating Medicaid claims data coming up this very soon. I'm not quite positive on the timeline. The Medicaid claims data this summer with commercial data prioritized immediately to follow or even in tandem for the HIE. We also are partnering with OneCare Vermont and OneCare may want to speak with you about this as they're waiting for their testimony at this point about the efficacy of the care navigator platform. This is the platform for providers to use to coordinate care and to share in care plans for shared patients, patients in common. We've heard a lot of feedback that this platform is not ideal for providers for a variety of reasons and we together with OneCare are looking at whether or not the platform is the most effective tool to use in terms of care coordination. We've also sought a lot of input from direct users, the delivery system users of this platform to understand why it is not working. And so you'll speak with OneCare again very soon here but I think we imagine that through their work and our work, we would soon be making a recommendation in light of care navigator. Because it is the objective of the state to move as much payment into value-based arrangements as possible, we suggested in recommendation 14 that AHS would explore whether or not provider participation in the blueprint and the receipt of payments within that model should be linked to a provider's participation in a value-based payment arrangement with an ACO. This is an area for exploration. I do note that there have been small increases in the Medicare program to fund the blueprint payments and those small additional increases are ones that were targeted for participants in the Medicare risk program. So we made the decision that a small increase for payments for providers should be associated with their participation in the risk model for Medicare. It's the risk model for Medicare that generates these small increases for the Medicare dollars that go to blueprint. And so it is in alignment with that avenue that providers who are taking risk and generating the increase in the payment by being at risk that those at risk providers are rewarded with that small increase. So I'm just aware of our time and I'm just concerned that we're going to, we're already going to be short on time. It's very clear all the way around. So let's see if we can find our way through this as briefly as possible because we're gonna turn to one care very, very shortly. I'll sum up, I think that I can sum up recommendations 15, 16 and 17 as being very pertinent to those high level population health outcomes that we are looking to achieve as both the state of Vermont and in collaboration with the system of care. These recommendations are in progress now and are important for being sure that we are in our own programs at the AHS ensuring that we are participating in and that we have created models of care for people with complex medical and social needs that are the most advantageous and that are directly influencing social benefits and determinants of health, mental health and substance use dependency. And I talk to you about the recommendation, I talk to you about our plan stakeholder engagement as well. I'll sum up the Green Mountain Care Board recommendations being in the aspect of the first being consistent with our objective to see more payments shift to fixed perspective payments. And that is very much the case for commercial payer participants as it is for Medicare. So we emphasize Medicare in the federal relationship. We need to work with commercial payers through both the Green Mountain Care Boards role as well as AHSs to be sure that commercial payer and one care contracts have fixed perspective payments. And additionally, we recommend and these recommendations were developed with the Green Mountain Care Board staff participation that the Green Mountain Care Board is looking through its regulatory processes about how one care is identifying opportunities for savings and how one care is connecting providers reimbursement in a way that is consistent with the quality outcomes of this model. And finally, the recommendations for one care do focus on how one care elevates data as a value added product for its network participants. And that connects to our thinking about what's available as data through the health information exchange and wanting to improve that data by linking claims and clinical data in the health information exchange. And it is our objective for social determinants of health data to follow in the health information exchange and in fact, to follow behind mental health and substance use dependency data as well. We also recommend that one care focus on how it can ease providers transitions into value-based payment and delivery system redesign. I apologize for the typo which I've seen before and seems to be like a ghost typo. This recommendation really does speak to that readiness for risk. So in terms of the participants in one care model and as well as it speaks to working within a model of continuous improvement, providing data and information so that providers can maximize their performance within a budget. We recommended one care identify and perfect its core business that it provide useful and actionable information and tools for participating providers and to improve how it packages data for providers. We did hear that the data that providers were receiving that providers felt that that data could be more applicable to their practices more timely, more actionable. We also recommended one care Vermont foster a culture of continuous improvement and innovation and learning through focusing on data as well as establishing systems for improvement and clearly tracking the results with its network and finally that one care improve in its transparency and responsiveness to partner requests for information. So we, I think if we can take down the screen I think that would be helpful right at this point. I'm acutely aware of how much we're trying to cover in a period of time that it is clearly not sufficient but it is an attempt to try to take next steps. I think at this point, I know there's questions and I know that we have Vicki Loner with us and we have again a limited period of time. My best judgment is at this point that we shift our attention to hearing from one care briefly and focusing what time we have on questions. It's clear that we'll want and need to come back to this. And so I just want to acknowledge the frustration of having more questions than time but I really do appreciate it. And I think it was valuable enough for you to field our questions early on because it's important. There are many, many, many more questions and stakeholders are raising questions both about the agreement, the Alpera model, ACA model agreement, as well as one care and it's part of our job to try to make opportunities for committee members to both get sufficient information and opportunity to ask questions. So I see this as the next step in that and not the last step in that. And I want to acknowledge that the Green Mountain Care Board, I don't know if there was a misunderstanding, I hope not, I'd seen them as a resource and not as a witness today, but apologies if there was a miscommunication there. And given our time, I'm going to suggest, well, I'm going to ask first committee, I'm going to turn to committee members. Shall we take a brief break or shall we just continue? What's, I'm trying to, I'm seeing nods and shakes. Let me ask the question, shall we take a brief break? Yes. I'm seeing very conflicted. Okay, we really have limited time. We will reschedule more time. I think we're going to take a stretch break. We're going to take a stretch break of only three minutes and then we're going to come back on screen and then we're going to hear from Vicki Loner. So I don't know if that maybe doesn't satisfy anybody, but that's what we're going to do.


I'd heard about it in the newspapers. They were looking for help, and so I spoke to my father about it, and he said, way you go. So I got on a train, went to Ontario, and I met a family there that I stayed with wherever I went. Isabel and Joe, Morrison. They had one son, and through her, I worked in the shell-filling plant at Ajax to begin with, and she moved to where they were making bombs, and had me go along, and so.


Okay, yes, thanks for still being here and I will try to hurry because I also have a train to catch Yes, I'm a postdoc at the Hamburg University of Applied Science started in summer in June, July and We have a Growing group that is working with blockchain and we are about 15 people now and Mostly we have IOT projects mud city projects, but we also have a Project that I will present today and it's a bit or it start as a project from the research re-use of research data and we During the the past month. We thought we should extend this to open science, but Yeah, short introduction. I will present this research project could be T that Then I will show the architecture that we have come up with so far and our use cases that we have developed so far and are now in the way of implementing those so the research project is funded by the BNBF and We are three partners. We are the F EZ Karlsruhe, ENP Geiswald and we from Hamburg and All three groups at different parts to the project. So We have Karlsruhe. They are working on ontologies so that we can semantically interpret the research data and Also with a goal to to find this data and also to reuse it Interdisciplinary this interdisciplinary And EMP Geiswald, they are actually doing the plasma science. So the project is based on plasma research and They have the the problem that they do many experiments, but the results are not often reused not so well documented and But this is actually one area where it could be very You could benefit from reusing the data from other experiments, but since not all the metadata are there, for instance, what are the What is the machines used for the experiment? What is the environmental condition? So that's why Research data is often not reused, but people just do the same experiments again and again so this is actually the main motivation behind the project so that the experiments don't have to be done again and again, but we can reuse the data and Importance there also that we have quality criteria so that we can Identify which research data which results are on a search in quality level so that it really makes sense for me to reuse this data and With a blockchain technology it comes a bit together So we would like to use smart contracts that automatically do this quality check and We want to keep ownership However, as I told we thought okay this Concept that we came up so far with they would be interested even in a larger scope in the scope of open science And also of publishing so actually this talk would have fitted very well in the session with Blocksberg and Artifact there are probably some similarities or there are quite some similarities But so our main question was so there are many open access journals around or there are even Completely free journals around where you can publish for free you get reviews, but these journals are often Not used but rather people use the well-known journals pay money to have open access articles so And to the point is We thought so what are the steps that we have to take to to foster open access in a better way and also the open journals or some alternative structure to publish And said so the first thing so this applies both applies both to data and to publications so Yes, we need to secure ownership and data integrity So if we talk about reuse, it's also this point So when someone reuses your data, it should be somehow ensured that that person really reused your data without Changing it slightly to make it fit better for his or her own research then second is Data has to be findable accessible and the quality has to be ensured as I said already, but the main point is the third one Why are people publishing with? Expensive journals because they have a certain reputation and if you publish they are the thing okay Your research has a certain standard and when you get cited you have certain reputation. So It's similar to the artifact approach. You have already this incentive of citations and this would apply As well for data and if your data is reused it is more or less cited by your own research So we somehow need to ensure this incentive and then we believe if we get a good structure That we can give this incentive with our solution then people would Go rather with Alternative solutions for open access then with the common journals This is the architecture we came up with It's three parts the researcher who is author the researcher was reader and the database blockchain part in the middle So it starts with the researcher doing the experiments the data will be transferred to the research database locally then the researcher can use a web UI to Yeah, access our services from our blockchain solution and to first for instance Yes, certify the research data. So then we write the important metadata and the hash to the blockchain and other metadata will then be published by a conventional database So for as the excess to you search and find your research and when Other researchers will then why the web interface First search for data and when they find something interesting or for publications they can ask for access Get the data transferred either Yes, why a new link from the original research data management to their own Then it can be hashed again to ensure that really the right data has come over So we have these services force for Dapps. We have to certify verify Contract for one for publishing one for access curation, which is the quality control then review process so I Guess when you have public Publication for free search papers and the review is kind of the quality Control and the reputation management however We haven't really implemented this review case, but as we have seen L and I is working on these Fards so it fits very well together So I present three use cases This is the the simple use case that all of you know and that is nothing new just to yeah request a certification when you have When you're done with your research In the more complex sequence diagram I hope it's not too technical, but this is what we use then for the implementation follow this So it will be this step. So the researcher gains data with the Sensor application from the experiment and this data is stored in the research database so in the perfect world We could really Already access the data from the sensor and creating the hash directly here So that there's no way that this data is in any way modified But this Yeah, we are not there yet then in the next step the researcher would ask for a certification and Here is what's also Something that is a bit special of our solution But what also artifact is working on now and was also our first Challenge that we really sent the hash algorithm back to the research database so that the hash is actually calculated locally But from an algorithm that we control wire or not we but that the blockchain solution controls So that we really ensure yes, the data is there. Yes, the data has been hashed with this algorithm and we have also developed a kind of solution that We've talked about the case there was some question from the audience So what happens in five to ten years when actually the hash algorithm is not it might not be secure anymore Maybe we have quantum computers that do it completely differently So yeah, we also implement an algorithm that can update the hash algorithm later But we then come to the problem that we might deal with huge data sets for instance in physics they have Terabytes of data actually or at least gigabyte. So that's another challenge For the next use cases. I won't show these Sequence the earth because it comes very too detailed and you wouldn't be able to read it anymore. I stay on this More on a flow chart level So when we try when you want to have a publication So the first use case was just to certify the data But here you actually publish your data you want to make it public And this could be research data that you have already created a hash or it could be a publication That is based on other research data either your own or others or it could cite other documents other publications so your request your publication and The publish contract will try to verify the objects that you have used so it checks the Your citations so is there any data involved and then it can The certifier can ensure the hash is so you have to submit your Your research item and use data set so that you can ensure the hashes check in the blockchain if The use data set still has the same hash as entered in the first place And if this is done Then you can continue to the quality check other ways you will get a rejection and Then the quality check will do the curation. That's the methods developed by imp rice flood And if the quality is Okay, so you can come up with different types of quality So the the easiest thing would be is the data accessible is the data It doesn't have the same hash, but you already have done that is the meter the meter data complete And then you can also have some sematic analysis of the data So if you have the quality check done, it could also be the review process in case of publications Then you can publish the item You will save The the hash and the meter data the relevant meter data So if you think about these experiments, for instance, it could be important What temperature has been used when you bought these results? So we would create a hash of this kind of important meter data So when you want to reuse the data, you can be sure that this is ensured this kind of environment Yes, so you save it and then we go to the reputation management and increase the reputation so here we have the and the challenges that we really need to Identify the use data and we somehow have to extract if it was really I just noticed a line there, so I Shouldn't step over it. So Yes, so When we have a publication it will be hard to actually see which data set from the original dataset has to be used so This is an interesting challenge and we might find a solution for that one Or to really ensure that for this publication this dataset has to be used because there's this transfer That you do when you do research whatever So Yes, exactly and the third use case is the excess Where another researcher finds your work Ask the meta database to return the object. What would be a link to the research data and a link to the transaction in the blockchain so The reader will request access and this will be prepared So the blockchain will resolve the link and if it's more private data. So if it's still We think also of the so you have public data and you have more or less private data where you can control the excess So in the case it's private data You have to grant access first. Otherwise, it would do it directly and just ask the system the research database from the other from the author Create a copy from the data. This has to be hashed again locally and Yes, then we will check is this the same hash. So you really got the data Then it's a success. So we're done and we increase the reputation. It's a kind of read and If the hash fails then this means so either the data has been modified at the author system Or it's got somehow modified on the way However, we have a fail. So we will inform all the involved parties So the author has a chance maybe to to check what happened to the data and to see that everything is fine again And but we still have to somehow note this in the reputation calculation and There it's the next challenge. So how will the details of the reputation management work? So if you fail once probably this will not have an impact on your reputation, but if it fails continuously so then maybe the data is not there anymore, maybe the data has been changed or Maybe your research database is not really reliable, but this is has an impact on your reputation Yes, so to sum up What is very nice in the product we have in the end is somehow a combined top-down bottom-up Approach because we have now we're looking at the open science in general. It's more like so these are the process in place How can we implement them in the system? But on the other hand we come from the from the discipline from Plasmon research, so We come really from from the data from the researcher and from their requirements So we can fill the gaps in between these and iteratively. It's very nice and Yes, so the the basic process they are relatively straightforward. It is those that I have shown but The devil is in the details. So the additional security for instance So how can we push out the smart contract to do the hash actually locally? How can we have a meaningful reputation management that really will be a replacement for the metrics available today and Then how to implement a reliable peer review process, so which you are working on Yes, and we are in the process of joining the blocks book because we also think it's not There's no need to build another blockchain but if we can do our things on their network, it would be perfect and So I think I just got the message from James that we are in the consortium. So We're going ahead with that. Thanks Yeah, the devil is in the detail. I think a lot of Objects that tied to like that new new incentive structures suffering from these devils, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So are there any questions? Yeah, okay Okay, thanks for this nice talk. I'm just wondering To make this really work if I understood it correctly and please correct me if I'm wrong You would he said this this would bear fruition if you have a lot of inter comparable Measurements, right? Let's say you were measuring a fundamental constant and everybody like like would would would give a certain value And you have a certain variation and those far outliers would would be something you'd Give a negative reputation or somehow downscore but often in most practical experiments It's essentially not only the data set, but unfortunately. I mean ideally it wouldn't but unfortunately they also depend on your Specific setup, right? So you have a certain experimental setup and Unfortunately the the result of that measurement is not or is dependent on how you measure it, right? Especially in life sciences and so on right so how many like like what is the typical cases where you would have a lot of Kind of things measure being the same thing measured from different groups with let's say Expecting the same results. So you have like a critical mass of measurements where it makes sense to really intercompare them and then validate them with your systems So we're not really comparing results to each other. So But we would like to to have experiments well documented so that they could be repeated in a better way and Also that if you find out that it's But that's not really in our system But if you see that these results are reliable when you so you only have to repeat maybe one experiment And then you can believe okay, you can trust the research data from these group because they Use the setup that they have in the metadata. So it's a bit more in this Are there any more questions? Yeah, okay, what is the status of implementation and is there any like Any implementation that can be test driven any time soon or what's the time frames for that? I ask it because I find it very very interesting Yes, so I mean there you can see we we are started more than one a year later than Artifact for instance, so it's not so much implemented We have implemented the verification process, but this will probably be replaced by blocks back and what we we have done Now we have defined those use cases So we could start with the implementation as soon as we have access to the blockchain or API So it it will we will probably take a small step. We were discussing with blocks back to have Some kind of collaboration of also in the direction of review process so we will see if something happens there in the next month is but To be honest, I don't think that we will have a whole system that would be comparable to Artifacts, we are more we are a research project and we would love to be in this direction But we by ourselves are too small. That's why we joined blocks perk and We will probably implement parts the parts that are most relevant for our project and then we will see how far it goes


Red Bull fridge at a point 14 inches. Can you guys see this? It says 14 inches.  It's it doesn't work. Yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. I think it's just it's inaccurate.


Thank you very much for coming here today to listen to these few words of mine, and before I start I'd like to say how I appreciate being here and what I might describe as hallowed portals with Admiral Sprint's flag at the back, it's an eye-firm personally very uplifting and I hope the students and everyone here does the same. Here we have, as John has just rightly said, British treaties with China and Japan, HMS Ferris, we'll be introduced to her now. She was simply the gubernatorial yacht by which means Lord Elgin was able to move around the east. And there she is, in England before leaving, this is taken from the Illustrated London News. As you can see, a paddle wheel steamer, wooden built, very small ship, 1,500 tons, and by modern standards a huge crew, 220 officers and men. The team was used only, generally speaking, for navigation in confined waters such as entering harbours and that sort of thing, for long passages she would proceed under sail. And in 1857, the year before we are talking about, she was commanded by Captain Sherrod Osborn, shown here as a rear admiral. I include him particularly because earlier in his life he had made quite a name for himself. Rather to the north of us, the north-west passage era, the British in the 1800s were endeavouring to see if there was a route from the Atlantic to the Pacific around the north of Canada. And they sent Sir John Franklin on an expedition in the 1840s and he was never seen again. So Sherrod Osborn was a member of a couple of subsequent expeditions, 1850 and 1854, to endeavour to track down Sir John Franklin in his ill-fated expedition. And it transpired later that he had died in 1847. And while we're on the subject of the north-west passage, though it's got nothing to do with the talk, good modern-day Arctic transit economics described in proceedings. I'm sure some of you take proceedings. This year, the July 2013 edition, a very nice article by Stephen Carmel on the modern-day economics of that still dubious route, page 38 in proceedings July this year. Subsequently, he had distinguished himself, Captain Osborn had distinguished himself during the Crimean War, 1853 to 1856 when he come out in the Suvius in the Sea of Azov. So he had a history of a bit different from the normal run. And straight away we take her from the ship's logbook, an extract 4th of May, 1857. This is just before she set sail from England. You can see her lit fires and weighed at 11.30. And one of the principal objects of her proceeding east was to escort these 12 small gunboats. They'd been built for use in the Crimean War in shallow, confined waters. And the Crimean War just ended, as I've said, and it was perceived that the use would be, good use would be made of these craft in similar shallow waters on the China station. As I say, she left England the 4th of May down to Madeira, if you can imagine, across to Rio. And then a huge route around from Rio to Java Head, right around the tip of South Africa, didn't touch in South Africa at all. And Java Head, as you know, is on the western tip of Java between Java and Sumatra, by Karamata there, a huge, huge passage. And then up the Borneo coast, across to Hong Kong. And the last ship in was firm, escorted by a furious, arrived in Hong Kong on the 22nd of November. So from 4th of May to 22nd of November, to escort that small flotilla to the east. Now, as befits the error, my reference to Chinese names will be according to Wade Jiles Romanization and not the modern system. Basically, the trouble had arisen in the Far East in October, as early as October 56, when the Chinese authorities at Canton, in the south of China, had seized a small craft or launcher called Arrow, lowered the British flag and arrested the crew, a number of whom they accused of being pirates. And you can imagine the British were infuriated by this illegal act. And in part, owing to the strong characters of two of the men involved, Sir John Barring, who was Governor of Hong Kong at the time, and the Imperial Vice-Roy Yeming Chen, he was Vice-Roy in that southern part of China based at Canton. Both very strong power for personalities, generally tension and violence escalated. And the whole pot was kept boiling or had been already started boiling earlier in 1856, when a French missionary, Auguste Chape-Delaine, had been murdered next door to Canton, Quangxi province. The French were outraged, pretty obviously. The long and the short of it being that the French and the British, recent allies in the Crimea, now became allies to deal with what they perceived to be the problem in China, mostly deriving from the controversial opium trade. It was these latter acts, the Arrow, Fair and the Murder, that proved to be the final pieces of straw that broke the camel's backs, the patience of the two European parts. With tension escalating, the British appointed the highly regarded administrator and colonial governor, James Bruce. He held two titles, his primary title was 8th Earl of Elgin, and also he was a 12th Earl of Kinkardine, both in Scotland there. And he was dispatched east as their plenipotentiary, which means he had the authority to basically do what he liked. He was overall supreme commander over all British interests in the east. And here we have a map, we'll get down to details in a moment. Just briefly, there's the Sea of Azov where Captain Osborne had made his name in the shallow waters just to the east of the Crimea. Suez Canal had not been built, only to be opened in 1869. Sir Lord Elgin made his way to Suez, crossed over land to Suez on the south side of Isthmus, and took passage to Gaul in the piano ship Bentink. And when he arrived in Gaul, which was on the 26th of May, so just about the time that Osborne was sailing from England, he first heard of the outbreak of the Indian mutiny, which had broken out at Meerut, 40 miles from Delhi, just a few days earlier on the 10th of May. At this early stage, no one was quite sure of the seriousness or otherwise of the problem. Gaul was the port of entries slown those days. At Colombo, the breakwaters had not been built, and there wasn't a harbour there. Gaul was the old harbour. In fact, if you ever go there, there's rather a splendid old Portuguese fortification still maintained, magnificent memory of days gone by long, long ago. Anyway, from Gaul he proceeded to Singapore in the piano ship Singapore, and there he arrived on the 3rd of June. And it was at Singapore that he heard from his old Corpus Christi Oxford University colleague, University contemporary, that the mutiny was proving to be quite serious. It wasn't just a little unrest with the natives. It was an important general uprising. Immediately in the magnanimous gesture for which and due course he was to receive much credit, Lord Elgin ordered that all the troops, dispatched east in support of his own missions to China and Japan, be diverted to help George Canning in India. And then his lordship continued on from Singapore to Hong Kong to see how the land lay there, and to order troops from Hong Kong also to India to assist in the British effort within that country. His lordship also visited India himself, and it was only in September 1857 that he was able to return to Hong Kong to get on with his own business, that of China and Japan. That was, I say, in September. Shortly thereafter on the 22nd of November, Furious having rounded from Rio, this huge passage round to Java Head, there as I've mentioned, on the western tip of Java. This, I'm up the coast here, on the Borneo coast you have to take this passage up past Palawan and across from Luzon to Hong Kong. And Furious, as I said, right there on the 22nd of November with Firm, the last of the little gumboats of those 12, all of them escorted safely, by the way.  Prior to commencing negotiations with the Chinese in Peking, Beijing today, the seat of the emperor was in the north and we're talking about this area here. Remember, the trouble the French and the British were having with the Viceroy Dan in Canton, just adjacent to Hong Kong, the British and French perceived that that should be attended to first. Consequently, on the 28th of December, the bombardment of Canton commenced. Commissioner Ye was captured just a few days later on the 5th of January, 1858, so we're into our year now. And he was sent into exile in Calcutta, where he died in April, 1959. In passing, there's quite a nice, no, it's not flippant, there's quite a nice little tale about taking Ye into exile. The ship, which took him, was inflexible, a small sloop commanded by George Brooker, and George Brooker wrote subsequently, on finding himself in the ship, Ye asked if he might be so bold as to inquire if he was intended that he should be executed. On being assured that such was not the case, the story goes that then he settled in to make himself as comfortable as possible with whatever food and drink the ship's galley was able to provide. So he was looking after number one in fair style. Having dealt with the problems there, it was time for Lord Elgin to proceed to the north. Accordingly from Canton, he addressed an letter to the seat of the Manchu Pa, Chinese Manchu Pa in Peking, outlining the terms of a proposed treaty. Although they had not participated in the occupation of Canton, this communication to the emperor was made on behalf of Russia and the USA in addition to the active allies France and Britain. So you see already general coming together as common political bodies of the Western powers to try and attend to matters in China. This is 1858. This was by no means Britain's first treaty with China. For example, one of the first historic treaties had been at Nanking in August 1842 when it was agreed that various trading ports could be set up and used by the foreigners. Wednesday, the 3rd of March, 58 in Furious, now embarked in his yacht with his suite, Lord Elgin sailed from Hong Kong and was stopped at the various treaty port, Suat-a-Amoi, Fuchiao, Ningpo, and made his way to Shanghai, where he arrived on the 26th of March. So he took about three weeks going up the coast. This next illustration just serves to indicate the proximity of Canton to Hong Kong. Kowloon on the mainland, Victoria on the island and the rather tricky channel, a channel which should, by any competent body, have been defended very ably. But in this particular occasion, the allies, as I've mentioned, were able to start their, commence their bombardment of Canton on the 28th of December and in just a week they'd captured Yeh. So the Chinese, Manchu Chinese resistance was pretty limited. And this was the first port of call on the 4th of March, as he made his way up the coast in Phyrrhus. And I put this in any navigators here will know of the Cape of Good Hope in Southern Africa. Well, here's another one in those days on the coast of China. Not unexpectedly, when he reached Shanghai, Lord Elgin received the most unsatisfactory reply from the Chinese authorities. Knowing that any delay would be interpreted by the Chinese as indicating a weakness of resolve, the allies, the French being under the command of Baron Grove, their commissioner extraordinaire, made arrangements to continue on towards Peiho, which is that the mouth of the river is the river mouth leading up in the vicinity of Peking. It doesn't actually touch Peking. And the general area at the mouth of Peiho is known as Taku. A couple of days prior to leaving Shanghai on the 10th of April, his lordship requested the British sea and sea who was rear admissor Michael Seymour send all available gumboats to the Peiho. As there he knew and extract from his diary, they would be indispensable if it should be necessary to ascend that river to Tianxin. So you can see his lordship had been well advised in the Dunting's homework. These are very shallow waters. And we'll see in a moment the entrance to the Peiho is indeed extremely shallow. All of us are familiar with the phrase, blood is thicker than water. It was off the Peiho in June, 1859, when the British were having a very hard time of it. But although he was officially neutral, Commander Josiah Tatnall in the United States Navy entered the fray by entering some much appreciated assistance to the British. That was his explanation for breaking neutrality rules. Blood is thicker than water. So it was that the next year, 1860, a third expedition was necessary. And that was an overwhelming success. And just to bring that date into perspective, remember, here in the United States, the Civil War commenced the following year, 1861. So this is the area we're talking about, the mouth of the Peiho at Taku, seven or eight miles off in those very shallow waters here at the western tip of the Gulf of Chile. This tin-sinner short distance upstream. And as I say, the Peiho Pass is close by a peaking, but doesn't actually enter the city. I've stressed, Manchu occupied China. They conquered China in the 17th century, and they were to continue to rule China until 1910, 1911. And the Sanyatsen is all a different subject, of course. Very interesting subject, but we certainly don't have time today. Lord Elgin proceeded ashore to Tenzin where the treaty negotiations were to take place. Knowing in advance that he was to deal with the devious and untrustworthy people, his lordship adopted an uncompromising pose. He was imperial Britain at its worst or at its best, depending on your point of view. The Manchu Chinese particularly objected to two clauses, namely that free intercourse was to be established to all parts of China for trading purposes, and that a British minister would be entitled to reside in Peiqing. You can imagine the horror that that idea was received. The day before the treaty was due to be signed, the two Chinese envoys even went so fast to say that if Lord Elgin insisted on these two clauses being retained, they would lose their heads. As his lordship wrote in his diary, he was not influenced by this novel weapon in the diplomatic armory. The terms of the treaty remained intact, and so as it happened, did the next of the gentlemen in question. The Treaty of Tenzin was signed with Great Britain on the 26th of June, 1858, 26th of June. Similarly, the French, Russians, and Americans were to reach agreement with China. In addition to an indemnity being paid, a number of new trading ports were to be opened, including in the Yangtzee, as far upstream as Hankar. And I put that in especially to remind us all how very radical that was. The interior of the Empire, Hankar was 636 sea miles up the Yangtzee in the inland of China. So that was a gigantic step, a gigantic concession for them to make to the hideous British. Subsequently, his lordship embarked in first on the 6th of July, out here. The attempt was made to view the tourist now, Shanghai Guan, where the Great Wall enters the sea, or comes to the seashore. But it was a vile day with drizzling rain and blow cloud. So without further ado, commander Captain Osborne altered course and they made their way to Shanghai where they arrived on the 12th of July. Now some of you, I'm quite sure, have been to Shanghai, 14 miles up the Wangpu here, 45 miles down to the open sea, Yangtzee here, and that's the way up to Hankar, another 600 odd sea miles. So come up from the sea, South China, this is all a bit shallow. Port de Helm, in Paswusung, 14 miles up and there Shanghai. Even in those early days, we're showing signs of developing to become the greatest trading and shipping center in China, which it is today. And just to add emphasis to that remark, we were there in 2008, so a little while ago, and two or three of the guides told us that all the construction cranes, we could see on every angle in Shanghai, half the construction cranes in Asia were in Shanghai at that time. Quite incredible. The situation now was there remained a couple of small tariff details he sorted out in connection with his lordships, a recent diplomatic successor, Tianxin. The total tone of the relevant communications received from China or Chinese was positive, but it would take a few weeks for the envoys to reach Shanghai. Encouraged by the cooperative attitude of those empowering Peking and perceiving that he had sufficient time in hand, Lord Elgin now decided to proceed with the second part of his mission to Japan. According on the 31st of July, he re-embarked in Thurus, Captain Osborne wed early in the morning, down to the angst, starboard his helm, and off towards Nagasaki in Kyushu, which we'll see now. Shanghai to Nagasaki, short distance, 450 cm. And here's the port we're talking about. Kyushu, Honshu, Shikoku's just here, Strait of Shimano-Siki, Korean Strait, Tsushima, South Coast of Korea. This is the scene of Togo's great victory in 1905. Hirada, I put in because that was the first trading station permitted by the Japanese in early days when the British, Portuguese and Dutch came to trade there. The Portuguese had arrived here in 1543. So just 55 years after their amazing achievement in rounding the Cape, the first European power, if you like, to proceed to the east by sea. And just 55 years later, they had reached Tanigashima, another one of their amazing achievements in that very, well, difficult era. The Portuguese had brought with them Catholicism, which the Bakufu, the government of the Shogunate, didn't like, so they were banished. The British didn't make any money, so they left. And in 1641, the Shogunate said that the Dutch should proceed and establish their base there, their trading station there at Nagasaki. That as I've hinted, the Japanese leadership of the day consisted of the Shogunate, the Tokugawa Shogunate, three families, Tokugawa Shogunate. And Aisada was a Shogunate at that time and his government, the Bakufu. The emperor himself, who was Komai at the time, lived in virtual isolation in Kyoto. He held a curious position. He read it to him respected, but virtually powerless. For well over 200 years, from this tiny island in Nagasaki Bay, Deshima means island, Deshima there, there was an artificial creation, that tiny little island. For well over 200 years, the Dutch were confined to that trading post. And they were permitted one or maybe two, three trading vessels a year from the capital of their East Indian empire in Batavia, or Jakarta as it's called nowadays. 200 years of isolation with various, it wasn't enforced rigidly by all the Shoguns, according to their particular feelings and interests. Some who are interested in outside activity encouraged the Dutch a little more. This era of isolation only was to begin to end with the visit of Commodore Matthew Calbraith Perry, United States Navy to Japan on the 8th of July, 1853. As John indicated earlier. He brought with him an introduction from President Millard Fillmore. Although isolated, the policy which the succession of Shoguns pursued with varying degrees of intensity, the Bakufu, the Shogunate government, were not uninformed. From both British and Chinese sources, they knew of much that was going on in the outside world. They knew of British military success in China. They knew of the Cheetah of Nanking of 42, and of the British very recent achievement of June 1858 at the Peiheu. Similarly from Dutch sources, they had known in advance that from the USA, Perry was coming in 1853, and in due course was to sign his treaty at Kanagawa, which he did the following year, 31st of March, 1854, as John indicated. One of the clauses agreed to by the Japanese covered the residence of an American consul in Japan. The first was Mr. Townsend Harris, who was appointed by President Franklin Pierce, and who took up his post in the summer of 1856. So just two years before the period we're talking about. Following Perry's success later in 54 at Nagasaki, the British commandant chief, rare Admiral Sir James Sterling, negotiated a simple, straightforward, seven-point agreement with the Japanese. In reaching this agreement with the Bakufu officials here at the Deshima, he had been greatly assisted by the Dutch head man, Mr. Donko Kertius. In addition to his efforts in China before he left London, Lord Elgin also had been instructed to obtain a treaty with Japan, the usual terms covering trade, right of residence, diplomatic representation, and so on. In other words, Admiral Sterling's agreement needed to be updated. And here, Furious arrived in Nagasaki Bay on the 3rd of August, 1858. And these are extracts from Lord Elgin's diary, which are just three little paragraphs, which I have included, quite interesting. Very true, no one can deny. Secondly, I've just had a visit from the vice governor of Nagasaki. One of his own suite did the interpretation. They are the nicest people possible, none of the stiffness and bigotry of the Chinese. I gave them lunch and it was wonderful how they managed with knives and forks and all other strange implements. Then the next day, I went to Shuo yesterday and this morning, chiefly to make purchases. Things are really beautiful and cheap. The town is wonderfully clean after China, not a beggar to be seen. The people clean too. You can see straight away that Lord Elgin is making quite office to making a contrast between the two peoples and generally speaking at this particular stage, coming up with favorable impression of the Japanese. And here's the country. This is the area we're talking about. Here on the western tip of Kyushu, Nagasaki there. Cape Chikako in Nagasaki, we'll come to now. Korea and here's Tokyo. Yedo is the name of the town. Tokyo just means Eastern capital. And here's Shimoda, little distant from Tokyo, but very close compared with the Dutch who had to make this long trip every time they wanted to negotiate with the, or were invited to negotiate with the Shogunate. You didn't tell them what you wanted, you asked them. Mr. Donker Curtis was not present at Deshima at the time that Lord Elgin was there. As can be imagined with the appointment of the first American consul, Mr. Townsend Harris, who was permitted to live here at Shimoda, there rose an element of competition between Holland and the USA, each country endeavoring to outdo the other in securing improved trading conditions. At about the time in June 58 that the British were leading the allies in their conquest at the Peiho, that both Mr. Curtis and Mr. Harris were here in Yedo, trying to seek improved benefits. Neither was the success of the Bakufu and not listening. By virtue of living relatively close by, Mr. Harris was able to return to Shimoda rather quickly, whereas for Mr. Curtis, this journey back to Nagasaki took six weeks. In the event, Mr. Harris very quickly received news, obviously of the allied success at Peiho in June, knowing that the Bakufu were concerned that maybe next the British would turn their attention to Japan while Mr. Curtis was still en route back to Nagasaki, Mr. Harris quickly nipped over to Yedo. There he stressed the obvious, that when the British came, it was likely they would seek to obtain from the Bakufu rights of settlement, trading, and other conditions, somewhat similar to those which they had won in China. However, if now the Japanese signed a modest treaty with the USA, then that could be taken as a base point from which negotiations should start. In that way, the terms which the British would insist upon were not likely to be so onerous as that achieved by them with the Chinese. The Japanese would have a useful point of precedent from which to commence their talks with the British. Good point. There was dissent within the Bakufu, but the important members saw the point of the argument put forward by Mr. Harris, and on the 29th of July, signed a treaty with the USA. Lord Elgin only remained here in Nagasaki till the 5th of August, then he proceeded in fear making his way in this direction. However, the following day, when they attempted to round Chikikoff at the south end of Kaushu, the seas were vile. Remember, fear was a small ship, only 210 feet in length. One member of Lord Elgin's suite was Private Secretary Lawrence Oliphant, who has left copious notes of all these travels, and he writes of their attempt the following day when the seas had abated somewhat to successfully round the Chikikoff. And we were underway in a few minutes with blinding wind and sea in our teeth and our bows under at every heave. The huge pointed rocks of Chikikoff loomed black and threatening in the thick darkness, and we could hear the waves roaring against them as we struggled past this point. I don't think anyone's left any doubt that he wasn't one of the happiest souls on board. In the event all went well, and they arrived off Shimoda on the 10th of August. And there they were followed into port by another of Her Majesty's ship's retribution, together with the steam yacht emperor. At the suggestion of Admiral Stilling, the yacht had been built as a present from Queen Victoria to the Japanese head of state. Admiral Seymour, the CNC, and Lord Elgin had come to an arrangement whereby on behalf of the CNC, his lordship would deliver this yacht to Yeddo at the appropriate moment. At Shimoda, Lord Elgin obviously visited Mr. Townsend Harris with whom he got on very well. From Mr. Harris, he learned of the conditions of the treaty signed between Japan and the USA just a fortnight earlier. His lordship instantly appreciated the tactics employed by Mr. Harris in his negotiations with the Bakufu. At the same time, he felt that in a few weeks available to him, then there was the terms and conditions would prove acceptable to Great Britain. A good start would be made if Great Britain and Japan could rather quickly agree to similar terms in their treaty. In other words, Mr. Harris' perceptive argument had paid off as far as the United States was concerned. In addition, Mr. Harris was kind enough to offer to Lord Elgin the services of his translator, Enrique Huskin. The only European language understood by the few Japanese who were permitted to have outside touch with outside influences was Dutch. And Mr. Huskin, therefore, with knowledge of English, Dutch, and Japanese, was able to provide the most valuable service. As he had done at Nagasaki, also at Shimoda, his lordship entertained the governor on board. The Japanese attempted, once again, to restrict the Europeans to Nagasaki. Of course, the wrong man, Lord Elgin, had nothing to do with that. This next illustration is just a quick four-year deviation. 1849, Perry, indeed, had anchored off Urager in 53 and had been the pioneer as far as modern-day negotiations went. But as part of their normal prying and pressing and looking around, the British had been then conducted an earlier survey, a very brief survey, just a couple of days of these waters, four years earlier, HMS Mariner, commander Charles Matheson. I just put that in as a little sense of perspective, no diplomatic effort at all. This is the more famous map, modern map of Perry's fantastic efforts. These dotted waters, the waters he surveyed as far north as Beacon Point, Hanida Airport of today. Mississippi was one of his ships, Point Fillmore, cleverly supporting his president. An island named after himself, why not? And this is where Urager is where Perry had anchored in July and then proceeded the following year to Kanagawa where his treaty had been signed. I put Yokohama in, or it's in. Not because it was significant then, it was just a couple of mud huts, but it was becoming important because off Yokohama there was deeper waters, so better for European ships. But that's the fantastic effort made by Perry with a huge surveying undertaking earlier before Lord Elgin arrived. This is the British update of 1850, Captain Osborne's survey. This is a limit of Perry's navigation off Beacon Point, hence Kanagawa, Yokohama, just to bring things into perspective. Lord Elgin, of course, being an experienced diplomat well knew the value of doing the unexpected. With leads going, Commander Captain Osborne pioneered this first passage up to that point past Kanagawa, past the limit of Perry's soundings and horror of horrors up towards Yedo itself where no Western ship ever before had ventured. Absolutely correct. Nothing like it had ever been seen before in Japan nor even been contemplated at a most remote possibility. Remember, two centuries of isolation, no foreigners allowed in and no Japanese allowed out. Appalled, the various Japanese officials who permitted aboard furious tried their best to persuade his lordship to return to Kanagawa. They knew there wasn't a chance of getting him back to Nagasaki, but at least they tried to get him to go to Kanagawa. Here's a metal, we see something in the metal of the man. Not only did Lord Elgin refuse, but actually gave instructions that the ship should proceed further in towards Yedo to that spot which I've outlined in blue. Just to bring things into perspective a bit, there's the Shogun's castle today, the Imperial Palace. The waterfront, of course, is hugely different with land reclamation and this red dot is the scene of the first British Embassy. But this is the seat of Shogunate Pa. In obedience, Lord Elgin's instructions, Captain Osborne sent out boats to sound and the next day proceeded in further, just a mile off city limits and he trimmed the ship's draft to 15 feet, even keel, so he could get in within a mile. And there on the 14th, they were joined by the gunboat Lee, Commander William Graham. And Lee, of course, was one of those small gunboats furious that escorted out from England and indeed at the pay-ho was to be lost in 1859 along with a few other British warships against that fierce Chinese defense. On 15th of August, a party of senior Japanese officials came on board furious. In the usual oriental manner, the question of face and status had to be considered. Earlier, a number of junior officials had been sent on board to attempt to negotiate with his lordship but he had remained firm in his refusal to even meet with such representatives until men of appropriate rank were produced. And such a group appeared on the 15th of August, one member was a shogunate admiral, a very intelligent, well-bred man, according to the Darius, who showed himself to be familiar with aspects of the loyalty of his furious, including her engine room even. Lord Elgin handed this group a draft of his proposed treaty. Also discussions were held concerning the question of accommodation ashore for the first British embassy. Now, straight away, Lord Elgin picked up divisions. In the course of these discussions, Lord Elgin quickly discovered that an element of disunity existed within the Bakufu and the Daimyo. The Daimyo were the right-wing conservative samurai leaders of their own fiefdoms, the Han within Japan and the Bakufu by virtue of their extra experience, if you like, with international deans, were aware that those hard right-wing attitudes had to change, but there was dissension. And so straight away, we just have another quick extract from his lordship's diary on the 16th of August. Chief Interpreter, one of my part, the princes who have come off to me, those were the Bakufu members, the admiral and his colleagues. And this is the spirit of the government. But some of the hereditary princes, the samurai Daimyo, are very much opposed into course with foreigners and that some little time ago, it was apprehended, they would raise a rebellion against the government in consequence of the concessions it is making. So Lord Elgin immediately picked up this potential division within the Bakufu administration. And then the last bit, of course, pretending to be his friend, I never believe a word they say, well that still goes on today, of course. So here we see at the highest level in the British delegation, an intimation given surrounding domestic circumstances, then prevailing within Japan. This is 1858, in just under 10 years, was to result in the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate, with the resignation of Tokugawa Yoshinobu, and the apparent revival of the power of the emperor, Mutsuhito, the Meiji Restoration, 1868 to 1912. Let's let me relate while we're on the subject of his lordship there in Tokyo Bay, Yedo Bay. With the various officials coming on board to see him. Remember, he was Earl of Kinkardine and Earl of Elgin. In Japan at the time, it was the accepted custom for any official to be accompanied in all negotiations by his emetsuke, or eyes in attendance. In other words, a spy who was there to report any indiscretions or inappropriate conduct. So naturally, whenever Lord Elgin received Japanese guests on board the ship, they looked around discreetly to try to detect the emetsuke accompanying his lordship. Of course, none could be seen. However, when later they saw that he signed himself Elgin and Kinkardine, then they suppose that the wily Kinkardine, nowhere to be seen, was somewhere there keeping a secret eye on Elgin. On the 16th of August, here we are at the spot here, miles off the city limits. The weather was poor, so his lordship did not proceed ashore, but instead sent members of his staff to inspect the proposed accommodation, which was just a disused temple, which could be adjusted without much problem. On the 17th of the following day, Lee came into her own. Remember, the small gunboat Lee had accompanied his lordship into Yellow Harbor, and she came into her own the following day, the occasion of the official landing. This was a magnificent procession complete with officers in full dress, 13 ships boat and company with their crews all in their smartest dress, salutes fired at appropriate times to both his lordship and 21 guns to the empire of Japan and with bands playing. Once the depth of water reduced to seven feet, so Firm could only go into about here, when the water depth was too shallow, about three miles, then his lordship switched to ship's boats and they rode up the coast to his landing point in approximately that vicinity. With considerable ceremony, you can imagine the bands, the razzmata, glistening uniforms, therefore with much of the all important face gained. Naturally, this was a sight then unique. Many thousands of citizens turned out to witness the extraordinary occasion. Once ashore, then the British found the opposite numbers were business-like and missed nothing in the course of their negotiations. Lord Elgin found that the Admiral mentioned earlier was the most intelligent and active member of the Bafuku food delegation. Another envoy was the previous governor of Nagasaki, of course with exposure to wicked European thinking. When those two were in agreement, then the remainder were usually content. All proceeded smoothly and on the 23rd, it was mutually agreed the treaty would be signed on 26 August, two months to the day, since he had secured his treaty with the Chinese at Tiansin. Also on the same day, the British gift, the odd emperor would be presented. That's pretty rapid diplomatic work. Not only that, but in a procedure quite unheard of in the Japanese also agreed to salute the British flag with 21 guns. On the 25th, Lord Elgin hosted a Japanese envoy's dinner, a most successful gathering complete with toasts and they say witty speeches. Some witty speeches in Japanese, some in English, some in Dutch. Imagine poor Mr. Huskin trying to translate and explain the subtleties. I think that's the wittiest part of all. The Dutch copy of the treaty was made the original as that was the nearest to being a common tongue. 26 August was also the anniversary and the birth of 1819 of Queen Victoria's consort, Prince Albert. Therefore at noon, Führers flied a royal salute and his honor. The treaty was signed at 1 p.m. and at 4 p.m. for the first time in history, the Japanese looted a foreign flag with 21 guns being reciprocated by Retribution and Führers with the same number. Thereafter the yacht was handed over with due ceremony after which Captain Barker of Retribution hosted a feast on board for Japanese envoys. It wasn't a late night do, Lord Elgin returned to Führers by 7 p.m. that evening. Here they are, Tokyo Bay, Yedo Bay. No time was wasted by Heimann returning to Shanghai to resume his business in China. Having made his official farewells the previous evening then early on the 27th, Führers weighed and proceeded to see. Mr. Huskimmers obviously dropped back at Shimoda that afternoon and Führers returned directly to Shanghai where she arrived on the 2nd of September, 1858. Before we leave Japan, here is the map of Japan as it was in those days with all the Samurai Han fiefdoms. And I've outlined in red there the important ones, the families of whom were instrumental in the restoration of the emperor and of overcoming the Shogunate Pa after some 250 years. The forehand who are particularly important is Choshu here right at the western tip of Honshu on Tozu here on Shikoku, down here the Shimizu family of Satsuma and the Hison here in the vicinity of Nagasaki. These were the four feudal Daimyo who, if you like, saw the times needed to be changed. But of course there was a method in their madness. Earlier I made reference to the apparent restoration of the Meiji era. In fact, the power behind the throne were the Shimizu family of Setsuma and the Mori family of Choshu. So there perceived changing times were coming and it cleverly stirred things, if you like, their way. Once the Shogunate rule was overthrown, as I say in early 68, the Meiji era commenced, and only in 1841 were the boundaries of these feudal fiefdoms to be altered to the modern prefecture system or can administrative regions. This is the last illustration. Again, an extract from Lord Elgin's diary. We are plunging into the China Sea and quitting the only place which I have left with any feeling of regret since I reached this abominable east. Abominable not so much in itself as because it is stewed all over with the records of our violence and fraud and disregard of right. So we see here concerning his success in Japan which is rather quickly followed his success in Tien Sin, maybe Lord Elgin privately was much more liberal in outlook than his imperial behavior would seem to suggest. Thank you. Yes, sir. Is this too early for Chinese Gordon? I hear nothing. Gordon, China Gordon, after the man who died in Sudan. No, yes, but early days. Early, yes it is, that came afterwards. Yeah. That came with the end of the, towards the end of the Manchu rule of China, the overthrow which took place finally in 1910, 1911. So Gordon indeed was a little bit later. Thank you. I've read several times that the English introduced drugs to China to entertain the troops out there. Is this a fact? It was trade. Inder, opium was grown in India. It was a very good crop for India to export. The Chinese exported silver. In fact, that was one of the reasons that China's getting a bit upset about the opium thing. It was the degradation of their people to some extent, but don't think it was taken at the highest level too. So it wasn't just the peasants who took the opium, it went right up the scale of people. It wasn't only the degradation of people, it was the loss of silver to India. So it was a trading. They wouldn't buy English woolens in China. They wouldn't buy anything else the English made. They wouldn't trade with India, with England, except with opium. So that indeed, that I mentioned earlier, disagreement with the opium trade. Where did you get the opium? It was grown in India, Bengal opium. Yeah. The bond was used by French and Shanghai. The French, the English, and... Everyone had their international... Let me get the illustration up. Everyone had their international... Oops. Sorry. Oh, how do I get rid of that? Okay, there we go. Everyone had their international representation there in Shanghai, but the French settlement was... They were the only European power to maintain their own French, even with French names in the streets. In fact, Sun Yat-sen, when he... Yes, absolutely. When he went into exile, that was where he settled in the French Quarter. The rest were the Japanese, the British, Americans, other European powers. The Talents were there, the Talents had Navy ships there. Everyone had representation of one sort or another. The British, there I say, were by far the most important in that era, but they lived outside the French Quarter. But you're right, the French Quarter is still there. There was a certain architectural identity, I think it was fair to say. Yeah. What's interesting about Shanghai is that it's such a cosmopolitan city today as a result of this period. Oh, absolutely. It was the rest of China, it's just... It was the international spot, absolutely. And in fact, on the Bund, where all the big firms had their offices, Jardine Madison office was there to this day, and the whole of those wicked colonial-type-era buildings are retained by the Chinese as national monuments. They haven't torn them down at all. If you look across the river... Well, putong across the river is... Oh, mind-boggling. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Oh, that's no exaggeration. Yeah. And 10,000 pigs in the water now, isn't it? You know, because they have a passion. I don't know how many farms there are. But Big King was pretty much the same with the Gacius, where everything all was the same. Gacius, you're getting a bit ambitious here. Good memories. I was a 17-year-old B.A.R. with when I arrived at P.K. Okay, okay. Gacius normally was associated with... I've never been better at everything about it. Normally associated with Japan, I'd say, but certainly with Dancing Girls and... Oh, it was ever since. Exactly, leave it at that. What did you trade with Japan? Japanese trade initially. Britain took from them curious things like seaweed, for example, tea. They valued high-quality cloth, soaks, which seems amazing, but the British were able to introduce those from China and from their own sources, and so-called exotic goods, like ridiculous things like alarm clocks with crazy toys, we would describe as today, but regarded by the Japanese with a certain amount of fascination. That was in very early times. Rice, of course. Anxious for cheaper sources of rice, though they exported rice as well. According to crop failures and one thing or another, trade goes on according to weather very often, that sort of thing. But initially, the Europeans were very keen on the tea, and they took some woollen goods, not much. When did the oil trade develop into China from the Ciccone vacuum? Oil was discovered first in the east by the Dutch in Sumatra, just near Medan there, in 1878, something like that, and it developed from there. The Dutch were the first off the mark with oil in the east, in the southern coast of Borneo, too, Banjo-Massin, Ballet-Papam, those sort of places. So it was the shell. What became shell were the first off the mark with oil in the east. Ciccone vacuum, I'm not sure. I didn't know the corporate history, but that would be subsequent for sure. In the accepted sense, the Dutch had had their trading post at Nagasaki, and the Americans had, just related for a couple of years, had had their consulate at Shimoda. Actual embassy was the British, I think, established there. The next pretty well, pretty close to the Shogunate Palace in Yedo. No, no, no, no. That was why Mr. Harris was kept away from the seat of power, if you like. He still had to make the journey into, still had to make the journey from Shimoda into Tokyo. Shimoda's, if you like, tucked out of the way a bit, on purpose. That's Tokyo Bay. Tokyo Bay, Yedo Bay, yep, absolutely. Tokyo's just decent capital. Did Elgin harvest his Greek marbles? That was dad. That was dad. Elgin went on to be viceroy of India. He wasn't any slouch in the British administration. He was held in the highest regard, and he went on, latterly, to be viceroy. In fact, he died in India of heart condition. Now, to Japan, keep opium away from its custom, you hear it with China all the time, because I'm here to do it. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, John. Very much.