First on the agenda is the proof of the agenda So do we need to add a Between six and seven reviewing historic resources and then I got development Yeah, I think we should probably let's um, I think that's make sense So Sure, we'll do the historic resources first I guess because we already have it Any objections to the modification You know Proved by unanimous consent Our next is talents from the chair I don't have much other than to say I feel like we're getting into the meat of reviewing these chapters for the town plan Just wanted to say thanks to Mike and Meredith It's becoming more and more apparent to me each of these meetings that you're struggling a ton of balls To be able to do this. So thanks again Appreciate all the work that you do to get us these drafts in the form that they're in General business how much on the public nobody is here Next is to review and approve the minutes from February 10th So nobody had a chance to be I Made the motion to remove them that motion failed So there was another motion to There was a different motion before that. Yeah. Oh, Ariane made a motion to remove being Franklin Street Southwest The one you seconded air and then you made a motion to add it which is to add the rest of the parcel So that was to add it so it's the change to the so change removed to add Backpage It's the remainder of the squeak Franklin Square condos parcel Just to clarify Approval of the minutes with those changes All those in favor Minutes approved Next item is review of additional staff recommendations on the design review regulations So I put together the the matrix most of which You don't have to worry about the ones that are already colored those are the ones that you've already made decisions on But what Meredith and I did after the last meeting was to kind of go through and We're making those changes into a strikeout copy. We have a couple of Minor changes that when we did our final proof read we found their rules For example that talked about and this goes a little bit to some of the orange places that talks about Replacing something But earlier it's exempt. So it's like well We you should make sure when you're replacing windows that they're in kind but then up front There's some rules that say if you're replacing kind you don't need a permit So we're kind of like well, we've got a you got an inconsistency that we need to clean up so There are going to be a couple of minor Points along that it won't change the fundamentals of what was decided, but it may change just a little bit of how some internal work and so We've got a strikeout copy on that and then if we make changes that are down here below from 13 20 then we'll add those to the decision and most of or everything that's down here talks a little bit about the map changes to the district So For example, probably the easiest one is to go through is is we had wanted to match our design review to neighborhood boundaries So one place for example was you know, we've got the area up here on Main Street Which is split in half half of it's part of this neighborhood and half it's part of that neighborhood what we can do Is just to make that its own neighborhood we already have 50 neighborhoods to add one more neighborhood Would just go and You know, there'd be a couple of neighborhoods We'd add a couple of neighborhoods that we would just adjust the boundaries to so the idea being that this is The area the properties on Main Street are slightly different than those that may be on Franklin and Cross Streets or Loomis and Liberty Streets Because of their proximity to the school and their location on Main Street So Main Street would they wouldn't change the zoning designation at all It would just go and create another neighborhood within that zoning district So it would still match the zoning it was told the zoning the zoning wouldn't change We would just create another neighborhood with another neighborhood description that would Still residential Why are we The A2 and A3 And so the line doesn't Will match the neighborhood boundary as it does also Yeah, so right now that neighborhoods are one and two We would just have one two and there were just a couple of these types of of changes that We can talk about those are kind of some of the little changes And as I said it was mostly because we were we had been looking at trying to having something rational that we can tie and Have something defensible and so If this is where we want the design review line then we can simply adjust our Discussion of it in the zoning by adding another neighborhood and that cleans that one up And if people aren't interested in doing that Maybe we could call it something other than the Main Street middle school Just because the school itself is a city So it's not actually part of that zoning Right. No, it's part of the zoning right there. Well It's in there. I mean we can pick whatever name we want I would just be here before that people wanted to see the municipal sites identified, but that's fine. I Don't know. I don't if I'm understanding you correctly. It's creating a neighborhood so that our design review makes sense, which It's going a little bit backwards at it. Yeah, it's not a true neighborhood. I don't I don't know if that would be convincing to people anyway, but So it doesn't it doesn't really move me to okay So that one if that's if that doesn't end up going then we'll just we could just go through these and see if any of Them make sense for what people Might want to go through and you can give a quick up or down It doesn't do anything to be a neighborhood It just it would be It would have a slightly different written description of what defines that neighborhood It's not going to make a lot of difference other than To kind of meet our objective of having design review districts follow neighborhood boundary That's just one of the exceptions is these properties here don't match the neighborhoods, so We can catch catch it under gateways though we could say we we chose That's chunk of those two neighborhoods because they're a gateway and we only chose the properties that are facing Main Street Okay As I said a lot of the number of these were just these were some suggestions and I said I've got about seven Seven of these very small some of the small some of the bigger ones that would be one So if that's that's a no, that's fine. The second one was did we want to? add this section in This is a very challenging This section here which we didn't end up putting in before One reason to put them in is that the growth center actually comes all the way out here So that's part of the growth center. They are also in the mixed-use district So we didn't include this property out to State Street It was just as we were reviewing things We could put that in I could send out notices to them when we do the next hearing We wanted to add these guys into design review as well These guys are all in out to this black line Sure makes sense to add those Those are houses or what those homes are like some of our businesses to doctors offices Yeah, I think those are just a couple of homes out that way and There's a cluster about And then the end of that is the cemetery The end of that is the cemetery. Yes So they said they these areas are in the growth center. So that was one reason I thought And again, if there's no appetite for doing that This is where the line was Yeah, I certainly consider my gateway into the city You know what's on this? These two pieces here are part of the Goldman parcel. So they're both front-ditch. They're vacant So there's like a clear break between From the development that like hillside kind of creates this break from where you feel like Daptown starts So if there's not much on that one So another one which probably goes along with the other one which you probably won't look at toy town is the little village That's on the other side of The highway underpass on route two. There's a creamy stand and a couple of houses There's smaller smaller houses on smaller lots. So that's the only thing reason I figured it I have no idea it was it was what it was when I got here as a cap for the capillary districts That's what they were called and I'm kind of stuck and I have no idea if people out there even refer to it that way but So that is actually part of the same neighborhood in district as these guys the high school Green Mountain Drive and so if we were going to try to follow Neighborhood lines toy town could be its own neighborhood in there and then that would Clean that lineup would that be a benefit to them? But it's mostly that the only difference is adding these things in to try to be consistent And if there's not a big yank to try to be following neighborhood lines on this side of the river or on To I know where for a second. I thought I didn't this one goes all the way. Yeah, the neighborhood Runs is all runs all the way out. Okay And not necessarily the toy town blue part, but the pink the creamy stands and a couple of the other ones on that side So if we cut it off there, they would be separate So that would be another one another one that Is stone cutters way again for the neighborhood sense stone cutters way is actually part of the same neighborhood that goes all the way out to the roundabout So we could have made stone cutters way The next one that actually has some change, which would be interesting right here on Hubbard Street are two parcels That are in the designated downtown in the design review district on Hubbard Street, and so We've made one change already to zoning designation This one would just go and say if we should move three three Hubbard and seven Hubbard to the UC Zoning district. So that would actually change their zoning district. Where are they now Mike? They're currently in Residential 1500 so that was just to kind of clean these two up. They see that are sitting right in here. They're a different color They're already in the designated downtown, but they're they're behind Bohemian Bakery basically So it's just two parcels just two parcels that ended up in Living mixed use mixed they ended up in residential 1500 instead of the it's on the eastern side of Harvard Yes, like towards the east state. Yeah, if you get past Bohemian Bakery, there's like two Money'd be a third house there, but the third house is not in the designated downtown. I'm not really sure why oh Oh Sorry, can you point those out again like they're Right in here. Okay at the end of Hubbard. Yeah Hubbard Street, you got the bakery and then right behind the bakery are three small houses Two of which are in the designated downtown. So it's just in it's just cleaning up Where we've got a bunch of things that all seem to be pointing in the same direction. We could shift them to the uc2 district and Eliminate another small inconsistency between all of our Districts, do you think there's gonna be a reaction from the owners? I Would have to send them a notice. I mean it's not gonna it's it's gonna expand. It's basically an upzoning for them to Which direction would we take three? They're already so they're already in the designated downtown They're already in design review. Yeah, it just happened to be in residential 1500 So they would just get shifted to be residential considering they're in all the rest of the Related pieces yeah, that we would just put them in with you see to which is the same neighborhood As the bakery and other pieces. Yeah That's less restrictive sort of generally than what they're in right now. Yeah, there'd be an up zone Okay, maybe do that one. So the other ones as I said I was just as I was getting these ready to go for Ashley to do the final things on the map was when I was kind of taking a look Another one we've got that's kind of part of a neighborhood is up here on school Street What's everything out to Cedar Street is there except that the neighborhood goes out to the school So if we wanted to capture the last three buildings, we could get the rest of that neighborhood Into which they would just get shifted into seven six The neighborhood that's the school Street mixed-use neighborhood again, if there's less of a Appetite for cleaning up the edges then that one might go along with the same as some of these other ones where when there's still be properties on the south side of State East state East states a separate neighborhood and that's on the next page But it's the same color. Yes, they're both the same zoning district, but different neighborhoods school Street is a different neighborhood than East state, right? So this would this will just fix the school Street intersection. There's the school Street just the idea of 13 through 18 and then we'll get to the last one on really a summary so If the if the only one that will make changes to our 17 had we had we done 13th grade team then everything would follow neighborhood boundaries with the exception of Cliff Street because of those three parcels that are in the designated downtown and The big gateway here on meadow up to the meadow, which is a mixed-use district Which is the same neighborhood as? Kirby's I wasn't going to propose to make that change that can wait till the Historic preservation group continues their work on a national registered designation out here and that one But we'll still have a couple and that's not a big deal the last one which is number 20 just goes through and says how would we try to solve There's a lot of jumbling on East state and a lot of lines that would have to be pushed for East state because officially the this piece here Which is the old VCFA land that's been sold It's still part of VCFA and then the college neighborhood actually doesn't stop at the college It actually goes down the hill to here So you end up with how do we you know? They're just a number of of then seven dash three kind of goes in and out down here So there's they would take a lot more line moving to make that get cleaned up But considering the other ones aren't going to get changed It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to mess around with that. We'll just leave those slightly jumbled knowing that we will Clean them up at some other point. Maybe when we're working on some They will make some recommendations when we do the land use plan about Making a long-term recommendation of what our thoughts are like all mixed-use districts should be in Design review in which case then we've got a plan that sets out over the next eight years to look at adding those in and Then we can ask the question of whether this stretch out here that's in mixed-use, you know If these are mostly residential, maybe they should be converted to a residential 6000 neighborhood or something like that Maybe it makes more sense that that be zoned residential through here rather than zone mixed-use for commercial We can talk about In the land use chapter how to clean up That's whatever inconsistencies are left. You can go back through these six or eight We'll fix them later on when we've had a chance to kind of Turn things over and do a little bit of planning on the other end So it makes the most sense right now. Do you want? Visually or people Feel there's some I mean it seemed like only 17 had any amount of support if there are others that people think Have some merit to make those changes now Maybe the simplest way to do this is is there an appetite amongst the group right now? We'll just focus on 13 through 18 13 through 18 are there any that this group wants to take up? Just sort of prove And if so what yeah, I mean I guess I would move Number 17 at three Hubbard and seven seven Hubbard to the uc2 district Is that a motion? Yes? Second on any discussion on it All in favor carries Proved any other ones we can take those up I'll make that as another one of the changes and like I said we can take up these other in any of these other ones inconsistencies So I know a little bit more about neighborhoods. Where do we talk about our neighborhoods and What is in the city plan? Well, they'll be in the city plan. They're also talked about in the zoning So within the zoning we had zoning districts and every zoning district is broken into neighborhoods So that way there might be a description of a neighborhood. That's although the same zoning district like I Believe this is the crossroads neighborhood. We usually call it gas station alley On Berlin Street, you know the Dunkin Donuts and Cumberland farms. That's actually the same zoning district at Berry Street, but it's clearly a different neighborhood and has different characters. So the neighborhood description is Different, but the same uses and the same setbacks and the same building Massing is is the same between those districts. So they're in the same district, but different neighborhoods You're crazy and then we did the zoning you just had like a lot of attorneys arguing about the description of a neighborhood That was completely like meaningless in terms of what it would be implication of it was yeah, mostly Where it would come to play is is in a conditional use hearing or in other places in the zoning there There are times they'll go and say something this change should be Should not undo unduly impact the character of the neighborhood And when that comes up, that's when that Written description of the character of the neighborhood would come up because something may be allowed in The crossroads neighborhood that may not be allowed in in Berry Street simply because it doesn't match the character of the neighborhood But it only comes into play in very narrow cases In some kind in some times it reaches a point where a neighborhood is just Breaches a point where it's so different that it really needs to be in its own zoning district and that area crossroads wasn't that far away from Reaching that it really is kind of a unique area that Could have been its own zoning district, but we had enough we had enough zoning districts We had enough zoning districts actually don't we're okay with the zoning district. It's the neighborhoods We have a lot of unique areas, so it makes it difficult to summarize everything into a smaller number So anyways, that's that's really where the neighborhoods come in And we did end up because because we have so many zoning districts Once you start breaking the zoning districts into pieces And some of them are broken by geographic areas, too, so They end up like 50 neighborhoods Thank you. Yeah, and it was a long process for how we got there too because in some cases we tried to keep the zoning districts like The area around the meadow this was all in the first iteration one zoning district And then they tried to write rules that would say well if you're on this part of Elm Street Then you can have a commercial use and if you're not then and eventually we were like Especially when it went to the public in the public Comment there was a lot of concern that people were going to put commercial uses in the meadow until we finally said no Let's just make a new zoning district that is in this area So a number of these places kind of got split that's how that got split that's how East state kind of got split off So as I said we will with that we will go through and finish up what we were doing on the strikeout copy So we've got that ready to go and so we won't have the hearing the 9th March 9th, we were gonna have the hearing it'll probably be March 23rd Just as a final Because we have to warn one more hearing that's when we'll warn it With any changes that we've made yeah, and we'll have this yeah We'll have the strikeout changes and we'll have the new map so if anyone wants to anyone in the public or anybody wants to provide comments on the revised version, but Most of it should follow what they've already seen Okay, next on the agenda review of changes to these stored resources implementations page So initially What we had looked at the historic resources before and provided some comments and we sent it back to The historic preservation commission to take a look at and one of the things that we wanted to add in was To make sure that they addressed what were their priorities? There's a lot of list of things that they wanted to do But what were their priorities? What was the cost and who's gonna do it? So I went through and added in some recommendations and They kind of went back in and Started to do a lot more restructuring so I've kind of left it with as they did it I don't know if we necessarily need to as I said like they numbered their strategies that's I Wasn't gonna worry about taking that out. It's not consistent But how the other ones did it but we can leave it there But what they tried to be able to do is to go in and do a couple of things one was to check that priority cost and Who is gonna do it? Also was to try to go through and I think John had thought about a couple of people I'd suggested Not just like the first one there strategy number one on the first page conduct surveys of historic sites structures and districts Including at a minimum two of the new activities listed below So they wanted to go through and and add a number how many of these are we gonna are we gonna do? So they added in some of those Does it make sense to organize them so that their priority high to low? Right now. It seems like I think we're going through when we get them I think when we get them done we will go through and Because we were gonna reorganize anyways, we wanted to leave it in this format while people work at it So we've got a logic between What's the goal and what are the strategies? In the end what we're probably gonna have is We got the aspirations a list of the three goals and then all of the strategies Probably in with some kind of table so we can kind of do it in a different organization But it becomes difficult to think through do we have strategies to achieve our goal? If you don't have it the goals and strategies listed underneath because in a number of places You'll see continue to participate in CLG in the first one and continue to participate in CLG in the second one What doesn't make sense to say it three times? We just say it once with a notation that says this goal implement or this strategy implements all three goals So there are Measurable outcomes from these strategies generally Depending what you mean by measurable well something is produced. Yes. If the time on something is produced then We're trying to look at having something that Whether it's to participate in CLG Create an archaeologically sensitive Where is participate? Second-page strategy to oh Yeah Okay, so I mean that's an example of one where Nothing's produced, but it is a Continuation yeah in this continuation of just participating in that program I think we also talked about distinguishing things that are Continuations versus new projects Yes, so continuations don't have priorities to them because they're just things that we are doing But really the priorities are about what are the new things that we want to be doing eventually some of the continuation things we as you said we may Categorize them differently when we flip them to a table because what most people want to see is what are the new Things that you're going to be doing But we don't want to lose sight of those Basic programs that we are already doing Is there anything we're going to stop doing? There could be if somebody's got a suggestion that goes through Somebody recognizes something that's either in the zoning or in a regulation. I think we had before An example of that was there was a recommendation that within the sprinkler code that we should exempt certain Structures and uses and that actually ended up passing so we took it out of the housing plan, but there's a housing plan that said Yeah, I think it was in the housing implementation strategy that talked about removing that because it was part of Increasing housing units and it was felt that the requirement for sprinklers in single-family homes was a barrier to construction of single-family homes So strategy to the one about CLG Why does that not appear in goal C with the other policies It is a policy It is a strategy 11 on page 5 continue to participate CLG. Oh This is what you mean about it. Yeah, it appears multiple times and so and it was just meant for The committee is working on it to go through and say what are we doing to? Improve upon the city's protection of historic resources You know, all right. What are all the things that we do to protect those? We continue to enforce the unified development regulations to the zoning so we've got regulations that protect it And then there are a couple of ones that would require something new and the question is you know How critical is that they want to establish a program to identify endangered historic buildings and provide technical support? They've they've identified that as a low priority with a high cost. So that's going to be one that You know, will that be something that we actually Continue to keep and it's in it'll be up to you guys to kind of go through and Filter some of these and decide, you know, you guys are Looking to take a little bit more on a little bit more than you guys can accomplish in Five years, but they're trying to they were trying to think about all the things that they would do to you know To to help them and I'm not sure there's much we could do with number three to be honest with you I don't think there's the staff capacity or the financial capacity for us to Identify endangered and I mean basically it comes down like the Jacob Davis house over on one-home farm way or five-home farm Way over next to the Agway, you know There's a derelict Historic building the city is that you know, they kind of like well we should provide technical support to these owners And it's kind of like, you know, is that is that something staff should be doing or is it really, you know, that's you know, it's too bad But I don't know if that's necessarily a city job duty to try to go and you know take these historic structures and Figure out how to maintain them when there's nobody there to maintain them. It really is a private sector They put some of these in here So they're not necessarily saying that they're going to get these done in Not necessarily I mean and that's a pushback or a question I had for them was you know and a Little bit of my comment was there's an awful lot of these that are high priorities in each of these I kind of would Prefer to see something that is you know, these are the things we're definitely going to work on they're gonna be my high priorities You know, we really want to do these three things in the next eight years and those are gonna be our high priorities and You know, maybe some of these get chunked out like identifying endangered historic buildings just gets dropped because it's Not likely to be on that eight-year list when you're also looking at doing Historic district nomination for The meadow and I would see that as a priority. I mean from my position I would think that should be something the historic preservation Commission could work on as well as the college itself Is not a historic district either neither one of those areas are in a in a historic district So those would be priorities that could take as much as two years to get through that And another year to get through that I mean those those can take two or three years just to get through that process And then a number of policies and some other things they can do relatively quickly some of the policy ones I don't think are bad ideas You know adopting a policy to require the maintenance of historic of the city-owned historic buildings consistent with the Secretary of Interior Standards, that's not something that takes a lot of time to do. It's something we generally do anyways, but that's So it's gonna be interesting to see how you put this into table Because each one of these has quite a bit of descriptive to it.  Well, yeah, we'll have to come up with my goal at this point is to kind of come up with what are the What are the things that the strategies are? We'll get that and then we'll figure out how to best tell that story or to explain that to people I'm just trying a little bit not to mix those two to get into You know trying to trying to do two things at the same time if we know there's a policy We want to remove or or a strategy we don't want to remove. I think the It's a aspiration they have is good. I think the goals they have are good I think their strategies are probably a little bit on the overambitious side but I don't know how much we would like to go through and The end of it's just one aspiration. It's just one aspiration. Yeah, that kind of covers all three goals It's really helpful for us to know from your perspective what isn't feasible Because that's the stuff that to me. That's what easily falls out. It's not something that's ever gonna happen Staff's not gonna have capacity for it And they can't do it on their own it's helpful for me to know what those things are and That's that's to me the easiest layer of how we cut this down. That's the first layer. Yeah, so I would say So improving the understanding On the first page. So the first goal is just to improve Knowing things, you know learning what we can about our historic resources. So conducting the surveys of historic structures Would be a priority. I think that one stays they want to do at least two of these and they have a list of them I'm fine with that With the list because it's really just a bunch of ideas and you sometimes don't know what's gonna jump out at you What opportunities present themselves what? Things so I'm okay with that Continue CLG is good. I Would see This number three was one that I think we had questions with before when it came up and they keep trying to Work it back in is to identify and incorporate Archaeological and historically significant areas and contacts into the listings. I'm still not sure That's really a strategy Why it seems like it's part of something else So grain industry tenement housing clusters civil war hospital capital complex So the entire capital complex is in our national registered district We already have a national registered district the capital complex is already in it They want to make sure that that description within Basically what was happening in the first strategy that it reflects these ideas. I don't know if that needs to be a strategy As a standalone strategy I think it's just part of when you're doing these national registers in these state registers that you're gonna Reflects these contexts So three was one that I still struggled to get out of them. It's like it's not really a separate Strategy it's just like a maybe a little detail for this Yeah, yeah, it might be an action step on how you would implement a strategy Yeah, so that would be one I Would I would probably flag if I were flagging that one The survey of the key scenic resources and conductive viewshed analysis That one actually I think we discussed briefly. I think that actually is a high priority I would actually keep that one in because we've talked about if we want to protect the state house dome or if we want to have us Protect it in our regulations. We need to have a study that goes through and says these are the scenic resources and This these are the people and or these are the viewsheds that we want to protect Otherwise, it's just what they're trying to do in the design review is not gonna work The word consultant whatever that pop so I appreciate that they're saying Their commission and planning department staff so they know okay. This isn't something we can do on our own This one also says and a consultant which to me flags that they're gonna need money to do this Yeah, and the cost is yeah cost is yeah cost is medium, which is why they'd have to hire a consultant It's not something we're doing, but it is something we'd have to administer You know playing missions that have to work on the console Sorry to interrupt the process that I've set us on but so the other piece of that to me is if we know Approximately how much money each of these things are gonna cost their specific budget that's devoted to these things so we can decide What fits within that? We haven't and I think just some of it would be In some cases they can be looking for grants so some of it might say it's a medium cost, but hey, we're gonna look for grants and If we get the grant then we can do it We don't get the grant probably won't be able to do it And some of that again comes back to what staff time we have So I would I would probably keep that one a survey of archaeologically sensitive areas It's a low priority But it would still involve staff if it ever actually happened, right? Everything there's very very little as many as much as people go and say in here. Oh HPC will do this It's almost 99% of the time comes back to staff doing it You know HPC may be guiding it making some decisions, but at the end of the day there's got to be a staff person who writes a grant or administers a grant or You know when it's doing national register districts It's kind of like who HPC no HPC is probably not doing a national register district It's gonna be a staff member who's gonna write a grant who's gonna hire a contractor and the HPC may be overseeing that But at the end of the day, you know When their committee meetings are over they're going home and they're not gonna do any work Till they come back Yeah, I mean I guess going back to Stephanie's point I would personally find it helpful to have that like written in somewhere like we would do this if we get a grant Otherwise, yeah, I would read this and think like oh is this coming out of the city budget Knowing the funding source. Yeah Right and it also I think helps if you're looking at it five years later like oh, we didn't do this because we didn't get a grant Maybe it's still a priority or just It could be another line that we add in there Again, we're kind of making sure we've got the priority cost and who it could be funding source could be in there And if it just says grant then people know that it'd be something but even though some grants are 80 20 It's just trying to keep it a little bit simpler, but We can certainly look at that Yeah, I mean right you may not be So just quickly kind of working through archaeologically sensitive areas, I mean It's not a critical thing for Montpelier that may be more critical in other places It would be nice to have at some point It helps you out if you're looking at 250 these other things because if you have an archaeologically sensitive area then you know You can have that map then identified. I wouldn't probably keep that one in So three you would go five would go compile oral histories that was just a suggestion I made that one doesn't I don't see Anything that says critical here that we would have to I don't see a critical need for that You're right. Yeah, it's one that I've went when I worked in Franklin County it was one that a lot of communities were trying to do because they had a large number of older residents who had lived their entire lives and in Fairfield and Sheldon and They wanted to be able to capture The stories of people who had lived through the depression literally and We're now in their 90s and you know, what was it like to see? Fairfield change from 1930 through 2000 I Don't see that we have that Here as much but because we have pretty good documentation in terms of what historically happened Yeah, the oral histories are usually about talking that's in front folk life center and bring you folks to go and Get the stories of you know The only ones it might be interesting here would be of you know getting the Pat Lehi's and some of these other ones to talk about Growing up here growing up here, and you know his stories of delivering newspapers to the French block or you know the fact the French block was empty and he couldn't deliver newspapers there Here it is 75 years later, and there's still nobody living there Develop a plan for collections and preservation of artifacts They have it as a low priority And I don't know How much of an issue this this is off the top of head to know whether it's one that would be Do we have do we have a need that's identified? Because the There are various entities who are already doing this, right? Yeah, and again This is this is a critical thing for some other communities that I've worked with You know Fairfield again, they had the the national they had the chest ray Arthur site And they had stuff in there and it got broken into and stuff got stolen and you're just kind of like well that you know And other places that had a number of things that they stored and they just stored them in an attic and the roof leak And they lost all these Old documents that weren't properly stored and preserved and so people started you know we really need to go in a Couple of places went and took their old vault from their clerk's office and used it to store historic items just because it was Protected but again, is that a need that we have when we've got? the history Center State Street and The old Spalding school in Berry City. I mean we've got a couple places that we could store these types of things Increasing appreciation I like to coordinate collaborate and sponsor educational events. I think that's perfectly fine. I don't think that's Something that would be They have a couple of them actually looks like they've got most of these labeled as low priorities So and that may be fine if their priorities are a Then maybe these are less important You just have the first yeah Steaker series that they're going to use the plan department to yep, which is really to educate the design reviews So that makes sense. They're only they're not looking at doing a lot of those Develop a historic topics on the city website. That's a high priority. That's fine. That can stay Education materials for the public they have that as a high high Value Continue to expand partnerships of educational institutions They have that as a low and medium priority Again, I don't know how much in relation to all the other things that they're doing I mean, it seems like a good coordinating collaborate. I mean, I don't I mean seems like a good effort, but Whether or not they can get to it with everything else Yeah, and again the concern that here would be a little bit of the who HPC possible consultants or collaborators and you kind of like Again, this comes down to having planning commission staff really Do these I mean, I think if somebody personally wants to Inject themselves into coordinating with a teacher and going over to the high school Well, you could hold it hold them to it that it's the HPC or some consultant that they get and not your office in that case I Very rarely see that The these commit commissions self Show up so well, I mean there's you're gonna be things that may happen, but It seems like there's like two baskets one thing Like a group of things that we are going to do and commit to and like should hold ourselves accountable to you And then a lot of things that are like, yeah, those seem like okay ideas It's hard to know between now and like the next seven years if They're gonna happen or not if they don't it's probably not gonna be a huge deal if they do might be pretty cool but I don't know if we like frame them differently Yeah, cuz I feel like if we don't put them in that all then we might forget them and In a few years if somebody comes on the Historic Preservation Commission He's got a lot of energy and time and wants to do that oral history if it's not on the list Maybe they won't think of it. We can organize a parking lot of ideas. That just goes through here Here's our implementation strategy and here's a parking lot of you know There could be a line in there that goes if you were additional strategies that were considered Yeah, yeah Yeah, I think things that we didn't think were bad ideas, but If we get eight things done, I mean it used to be when I would do these for for smaller municipalities that didn't have a lot of staff a lot of Even a lot of committees. They would just have like a pretty commission that's like You know, I would eventually get them down to a point and say give me the five things you're gonna do in the next five years And and let's focus on those we may have 30 things in here that we're gonna do But what are the top five things that we're gonna work on and you know a little bit of this? I think is great, we've got 30 strategies and at the end of the day These are the top six or seven that we're gonna work on I Like that. I think it'll help the committees Narrow also because it's not like you can't do those things you can still we'll keep that somewhere else but it's not we have so many committees and so many things that we want to do and To be able to narrow it to say here's five to ten things So having that Yeah And they You might not be like constrained either like if something is down on the list, but some new Way of getting attaining that goal shows up it won't feel like you can't do that We got a parking lot of stuff that are good ideas that there may be things that aren't in the parking lot that may come up They're good ideas. Yeah, I was just at a brainstorming event and I love parking lots, but somebody was like we should call it a bike rack By cracks not parking Should they start like a tick-tock account Educational material I know very little about that Makes me feel like an old person because it confuses me and I don't think about it By the time I learn I'll be like I got this tick-tock thing down. They'll be like no that was Oh Has been a screw furious in our paper So five we're banning initiate program to install interpretive informational historic markers They have that as a load of medium. I Don't know if that would be Lotted bike racked Yeah, but that feels like if you get the right like grad students and the right HPC person Like it just happened easy with no money Yeah, I think the idea is and what I would like to see them is just to make sure that they The idea of goal B is we want to increase the community's appreciation of historic resources So the barrier that or the issue they found Was last time we tried to do design review standards the community really didn't seem to value our historic It was just kind of taken for granted and they were like we need to be doing more to make sure people actually understand and appreciate The historic what's what's historic around them? Maybe they see things and don't even realize that's historic and make people understand what's out there and why it's valuable And how difficult it is to replace if it's lost and so I think the what's in goal B is important I think they just need to make sure that they focus on what are the important things to To getting there You know, it seems a little focused on making sure the public and Developers understand the design review regulations because number one kind of focuses their high priority with that workshop on that Education materials seem to be focusing on the value of historic resources I mean, there may be a little bit that they can work on but I think we can bike rack a couple others and see if they You know come up with a couple others again, it really comes down to making sure they can prioritize and Do something to make sure they're getting out there do those walking tours and those Although it'll be a little bit more difficult now to do that in in conjunction with the farmers market considering the farmers market would be out at Caldonia spirits Let's have to do a downtown walking tour. Yes the downtown all summer. It's gonna be out there today. Yeah, I don't know I that was what I'd heard. I'm Second third I heard that in the summer. It's going to the state law. Oh, it's going back Yeah, oh But the state law. Oh, okay. Good room What did we end up doing with four strategy for is that is that I cracked or I had by crack that one I think that's going to involve a lot of staff and I don't think if I'm gonna have staff working on something It's probably not going to be Coordinating to work with the high school on educating or going to Norwich It would be more if there was a high school focused group that yeah add this to it. Yeah Five also and five also. Yeah six or seven word would be kept They're continuing and then a program to assist with recovery collection preservation display of historically significant items I would probably by crack that one So which which one is it? I'm sorry eight top of page four We're blazing through ease now Then goal see continue to improve upon the city's protection of historic resources These are all the things that we are going to actively try to protect our historic resources Policy of protecting enhancing and perpetuating use of the city's historical archaeological blah blah blah if you remember in the start of the Design review regulations. They had this big policy statement that took up almost the first page So I kind of told them like that's really kind of more of a policy than it is Needed in the regulations. It's still in the regulations, but they want to adopt that separately as a policy So they didn't take it out of the regs didn't take it out of the regs. It may eventually come out of the regs but Because it's important to them, and it's not a big big Priority, I would say that's that should that could stay or should stay Adopt the policy. I'm maintaining the city owned historic buildings. I'll be interested to see what city council kind of thinks of that I Would like I think the only thing missing in there I might ask them to plug in is consistent with this Secretary of Interior standards is There are multiple ways of meeting the interior standards. There's Rehabilitation preservation Right, it's not specific. Is it not specific? They're like four different categories between between, you know, you know George Washington slept here and And this is an old building that's got some cool architecture to it. I think four different Scales it'd be interesting to kind of put in here if we're gonna adopt the policy Well, certainly when we get to the policy stage, there would have to be some Designation but their goal is we should have a policy that said we've got We own a number of our most historic buildings and we should Protect them in accordance with these standards Are we not doing that now? Well, some of these they want to add they want to add in a policy that just adds that to our Kind of in the same way the energy committees wants a policy on Purchase of equipment that are net zero, right? it's kind of saying how are we going to spend our money and They would like to have it so they could be We can call the city council to task if they decide to replace these windows without being historically Consistent or whatever then they've been able to come and say hey We have a policy of maintaining our hip building to this historic standard if you want to do it You know, you can do whatever the heck do you want to a policy is just a policy you can Ignore a policy. It doesn't have any but it's a policy but a policy sets a Standard that that we're all going to talk about this and we're all going to commit to doing this and It puts it on the puts it in writing and puts it on in a position that says is how we're going to operate and Then if people start violating anything you start wondering why you have that policy Certainly from that standpoint Establish a program to identify in danger to historic buildings again. This is one I I would Definitely bike rack that one Because I don't see that that's really the a role that we would be Taking on and it came up directly with the Jacob Davis property when that came up We said this is you know, we are willing to be here to hear If a private developer came in and said we're gonna pick up this property and we need the city's assistance through grant writing a Tax stabilization and this other thing that we can restore the building great But it's not our job to identify that building go out knock on the doors and say hey, you know We don't think you're doing enough to protect your building and We're gonna we're gonna suggest to you How to fix your building and we're gonna offer you money to fix your building and then people are gonna sit back and say Well, I'm gonna wait till my building goes to crap. So the city will give me money It seems like if the committee Labels it as low priority and high costs. We probably Should just go away. Yeah Continue to administer and enforce the provisions of the zoning regulations That protects historic structures and then there's a list of them down here And I don't think any of these I think all these are perfectly fine and this is appropriate. What about I? Where they're saying possibly require HPC review of demolition of all buildings or sections there of that are more than 50 years old I'm Let's say there's an older building not in the district not in the You know not historically evaluated Does that mean that HPC is gonna have to look at it? It does and like that It does and this one says possibly require HPC review they they've I mean there to a certain extent They've been looking at that and my switch to them has been we should be looking at what it means to You know, they should be participating in the rewrite of the zoning to make sure that the DRB and DRC have the tools they need Not necessarily the HPC I try not to get other committees To be providing those inputs because ultimately it's gonna come down to the rules anyways The main frame at the Department of Labor qualifies here Wait, what's gonna come down to the The DRB and DRC so even if it goes to HPC, they're not going to HPC doesn't get a vote They're gonna eventually just go make a recommendation, which means it really still comes back down to making sure you write the rules That you know, whatever we as a community value. Are we gonna allow these historic structures to be demolished? demolished under certain conditions or Not demolished at all You know, we've got to come up with what the rules are and how they're gonna be evaluated and HPC needs to participate in the writing of those zoning rules to make sure that they're so they're looking to amend Yes Although I think you're correct and that possibly require HPC review of demolition of all buildings is a Pretty extensive it's a pretty extensive and I don't know I would Or sections there are a lot of leaps we have to make to get there. Yeah, we already have this in the district, right? Hearts of this are in the district, but it doesn't go to HPC for review. It just goes to DRC for review Now a member of the HPC can certainly go to the DRC here provide comment In order for it to go to that HPC meets once a month, so that would take what's currently a Two-week process and turning into a six-week process because we'd have to send it to HPC for comment before we just warn it for the DRC Strike this section strikes me as odd because it's sort of saying the HPC isn't Totally satisfied with what the design review is now, but then I mean, this is the city plan and so I don't know I just I'm struggling with this Goal, I mean I understand that the HPC may have a goal to Make the design review Whatever words you might use stringent is what goes to my mind, but it could be a different word, but Is that gonna be in our city plan? I don't know. It seems odd to me So the first one's talking just about demolition and I think it's okay If we maybe struck after the possibly You could strike that and then that one's probably okay number two is amend the design review boundaries We just talked about that that's actually just there because we haven't gotten that adopted yet But we didn't necessarily always follow the boundaries Yes as our other justification, okay, which is where we had with the Gateway our justification. Yeah, all right, and we we haven't actually it hasn't gone through City Council to get to get that Hope done. I mean, I think by the time we get this adopted that will probably be done, but Continue to process to amend the city's design review regulations those are in the works With their development of guidelines with their development of guidelines follow up on the archaeological resources study If conducted that's probably gets Like right because we bike racked the plan you have to do the plan before you can actually put it in here So that would get bike rack review adaptive reuse standards That's probably one we could leave in here I mean, it's more of a possibly a bike rack thing But it's just review those rules to make sure that they're consistent They could probably find some time in the years to do that Exploring them and design review committee procedures to require at least one member to have historic preservation training or education I think that's a good one. That's actually Yeah as part of the DRC I Would I would leave that one there the next strategy investigate what programs could be instituted to assist projects single and two family homes Owner-occupied that rehabilitate the structures consistent with the Secretary of Interior standards That's one that they they want to come up with I Know they were interested in that one is to develop a program that would do something like that So a list of programs that could be used. Yeah So what we have is currently anyone who's a commercial property has access to a number of state and federal grants, right? But if you're a single family home, you have to meet the design review standards But you don't have access to any funding to help you pay for it. And so what they wanted to be able to do is to identify Funding opportunities for these single two-family owner-occupied structures So they could access I Don't know what That would be But for them it was To do a study I'm I'm comfortable Leaving that one because I know they were they sounded like they really wanted to do that in the next eight years. So Can we go back to strategy for I'm sorry So I see that yeah, some of the other ones are more process but I don't I Mean I amend the demolition of history historic structures provisions to make the process clear and to cover all historic structures I don't Is that something we agree with as a city? I mean, I don't know I just I don't have a problem with that I guess the and to cover all historic structures. Are we talking about national like in the registered National registered historic structures There's gonna be some Question as to Defining what that means all historic structures. Yeah, I Mean, I'm reading it as saying any structure over 50 years old And we've heard some argument that in fact our zoning already covers all historic structures But the truth is it hasn't really been enforced that way so We're kind of a little bit of what we need to look at the demolition provisions Well, I mean, I just have to figure that out. I have an issue with that and to cover I mean, I'm fine with the men's a demolition of historic structures provision to make the process clear but Anything else in that Section to me doesn't really want to have between two and cover you could put to study the Or to study weather to okay Sorry, what was the last one? What do you suggest? So be amend the demolition of historic structure today and to make the process clearer and to study study or Study, yeah, study whether to cover all historic structures, then it doesn't commit us to doing that, but It's something that they may be something I know they want to expand it to include that but As somebody who enforces rules, it's always difficult to kind of go through and say, okay, where do we what? Where does that line get right? Is this garage? Historic yes that garage or that shed off the back or whatever on a building. That's not the historic district Yes, so six Consultation with HPC the planning Commission will participate in act 250 and 248 were historic Resources may be impacted We talked about this one before yeah, I don't know if I had Oh, yeah We talked about this. Yeah, what did we come up with? I'm firmly opposed to I don't remember I don't I don't remember and I didn't catch that in my proof read of what they sent back to me I don't remember committing us to will participate. I think I had something that was the make may participate in act 250 Do we want to do we want to soften it just to say may or? Do I mean it There's mechanisms into I mean planning commissions already Has a right to intervene in a 240 process. I'm not clear on What our rights are in act 250? Yeah, we've been saying that there are mechanisms to get in if we want to I don't think we have to codify that in the HPC No, because if we do it here, then it's like every committee. Yeah, I don't think that's what I'm saying I don't I don't think it has to be plugged into specific chapters And I think there's a larger Question that we're gonna have to grab a what's on the road as to whether or not we want to engage You know the termination really through the act 250 process. Well, I just I just whether or not we want to sort of stake a Position on it in the town Well, we're so arguing the other side I can I would agree on act 250 on a lot of cases because really we do our own And we do a good job on our own rules and we do our own our own reviews So for us to oppose an act 250 permit Kind of seems a little weird Section 240 it's different. So that's usually something that has been exempted and preempted and taken out of our control and so if somebody wants to stick a sell tower dish on the side of a Church steeple or something and we would not have any opportunity to comment on that because it's part of the telecommunications And it's protected and we the recent changes to 248 allow us to do that those changes the legislature two years ago and They were largely predicated on increased public participation and now towns and planning commissions Want to say I have statutory right to intervene if I want to so we don't But I think they're irrespective of what the answer to that whether or not we have those mechanisms within the 248 act 250 context. I Don't think we need to be we don't need to be making a position here And I That's I think There's just better places to grapple with that issue and it's gonna be a big one that I think we're gonna have to discuss But that's certain amount of vigor Before that's just my guess. This is I just I don't I don't think it belongs here So whether it's whether it's Yeah, so whether it's whether it's historic preservation or whether it's water quality or whether it's whatever it's right These act 250 act 248 But are that what they really saying is like trying to set out an intention for themselves to Be aware of what's going on with those processes because I think what their goal was with that And I had just given them some information that said, you know, these are ways other communities Work on protecting historic resources in their case They don't as a historic preservation commission have any standing We have the standing. So I think what they're Breeding into this what they're doing is saying that in these act 250 permits We have to consult with them the HPC and then we have to participate where archaeological and historic resources are impacted Isn't some of their day jobs reviewing For some of them So I think that's that that's you know, yeah, I just think that I think it's a larger concern where we agree to a section that says The consultation part on a problem. It's the we will participate when there are certain criteria that are raised in it in either an act 250 or 240 proceeding Yeah, and I mean certainly my years here and my years at Berry City We've never done very much with active 50 applications that come in or act or act to 48 Except to in some cases actually just write a letter of support that says We support these Proposal yeah, and in your experience is that Is that approach served you well? It's it's been fine for the situation. We've had we haven't Come in to yeah, no, I think that's it's the one that comes in but I don't think I don't think Going to your point not having it in here would prevent us from going and having a case by case where a case comes up I'm somebody who decides to Stick a giant satellite dish on the side of We would probably be able to still Because we didn't have it in here isn't gonna say what you didn't have it in your plan It said you can do that. Yeah, those things have to be in accordance. They would turn in plans for And I just don't want to get in a situation where Somebody says oh, well, there was a archaeological concern with respect to a Active 50 permit and you guys didn't consult with us And you know the city top lane says that you need to participate you need to consult with us Yeah, a little bit of my concern be if we knew there's an archaeological state. I think if the state Shippo and folks have signed off on it Yeah Which is not a lot So six we would actually remove that strike. So that would be just a strike. Yes Okay, I got this enough. Yeses Seven is another interesting unique one that they've been pushing for Again Adoptive policy that says the Historic Preservation Commission will be notified of any section 106 report requests And then need for the city to produce section 106 reports involved in historic resources in Montpelier and such notice will be provided As soon as practical after the start of the section 106 review I received very little of these the irony of the whole thing is is I've been telling them I've never received a section 106 report and then of course like a week after I say that we actually got one in town So Well, I now can say I've gotten one in 11 years other than ones that we've done ourselves as a part of the city But again My concern they put this as you can see they had this as a high priority Something they feel very strongly about my concern was Most of these section 106 Reports are generally done by the city for stuff that we have to do because section 106 reports get popped up because you're doing something In conjunction with the federal grant. So if you're getting federal monies and occasionally private Groups organizations get access to these Section one, you know federal dollars that they need a section 106 report You know a down street or somebody will get a brownfields grant the brownfields grants federal money and therefore they got to do a section 106 report a Lot of them are city projects and my warning to HPC was the minute you come in and start You know Delaying and slowing down and throwing wrenches into mungin into gears On a on a section 106 report is The day you're gonna get a lot of people not very happy with you So if you want this tool you better be extremely careful about where you use it because if you're gonna decide to Jump on the section 106 report because of the potential of an archaeological site in the transit center parking lot and you're gonna hold up that project for Or whatever it happens to me I don't even understand quite how it would be like how the city could Force the section 106 project process to listen to them because that's a federal requirement and so You're entitled to provide comment. So the city so a private a private group Downstreet is gonna do a project and for whatever reason it's not getting reviewed through other things but it's gonna destroy some Historic resource and they needed to do a section 106 report we could provide comment Once the section 106 report Goes it's supposed to be sent to the municipality for comments and then all those get sent back to the ship Oh and off to the feds We could write a letter opposing a project because they're not protecting this project will destroy the historic character of You know of the project so any I mean Any of the federal funding that comes through my office were required to consult with ship out so I'm not sure what are they looking to have more like they might disagree with what the ship? I was decided. I mean isn't chip on Baldwin all federal funding. Yeah, they want the local HPC to be able to Provide their input to the ship. Oh for consideration in the Determination of that one more voice just one more voice in Tell me if I'm reading this wrong, but this just seems to me like a mechanism for them to get noticed So they can file whatever comments they want to be with a timely fashion, right? So I guess if that's correct Do we care? I mean doesn't is that really an onerous? Because they're just being notified. Yeah, I think it's I think this this is you know, I mean maybe not Overly onerous, but any developer who's doing some kind of process that needs a section 106 review this adds an extra layer and an extra impediment and I I'm also not sure like if the city is who's allowed to comment is the HPC necessarily always representing the Interest of the whole city. I guess it's again. Now you bring up a good question. So This is just a request that the commission be notified by who I guess I read it like if Like got in his mailbox or every year And if that was in even so even if this so if that was all it's today Wanted notice of these things and that was all they were all HPC was gonna do with it My question was like, yeah I mean we don't need to put this in the plan for me to go and give you guys copies of You know when I get an act you 50 or section 248, you know It just gets dropped in the filing cabinet if somebody wants to get copies of those when they come in awesome I'll give you a copy of it. It's not a big deal. I don't need a big thing in the plan But it really seemed like they wanted to take an active role in that in the section 106 review process So their reason for wanting it is not just it does say here. They just want to be notified They they would like to go and take have that so they can make it make those other steps and again If if they were reviewing these things in 99 out of a hundred times they just like yep, that's perfectly fine I'm okay with that but I Again my my You know, I don't have a vote either way my Recommendation to them was to be extremely if if you wanted this and we're gonna give you the section 106 reports Anyways, because all you're doing is asking for them and I never get them anyways But the issue is gonna come up the ones I will guaranteed get are the ones that the city is working on a project Fixing a bridge because we got a ot funds doing a project and if If I give them section 106 reports and if they want them I'll give them to them And they just start using them to start to throw wrenches into city projects They're gonna very quickly find themselves not being a very popular So, you know, I don't know anything Who gets to comment I Well, I only know, you know that we Get the letters. I didn't I didn't even know that the city got to comment in the low six product Process and actually I didn't somehow in our discussion. I I see that they're just wanting to be notified. I guess which Does the process just call for general public comments or are there certain parties their own title I didn't think that the section 106 But you know, they seem to think because we are a CLG community that the HPC has some Opportunity to comment only because we're a CLG community But I'm kind of relying a little bit on there that this is not a section of Planning that I know a ton about I don't think this needs to be in the plan. Like if this happens Okay, but like if it doesn't I don't think this is goes a long way in achieving anything, right? Like if seven years from now we look back and we're like, oh, no, they never were notified It was there a particular project That I don't know if they have a specific thing that they are Have a concern with me it's so specific that it makes me wonder Sometimes somebody did not get notified Yeah, and I think in a lot of cases they don't and I think it's just a little bit of they maybe somebody happened to read their CLG Background information and said hey, we're supposed to be getting notified where we're allowed to get notified And we're supposed to be getting notified we can get notified You know we could be commenting on all of these projects that involve section 106 reports and of course I don't It's just a question of if we get them So but yeah, I kind of said my my concerns on that They did list it as I pray they list they absolutely this is and I just kept pushing back in them to go say, you know I'm not sure I get this but they do the prioritize the one above. I wonder if it's if they feel the same way They seem sort of similar to me if like yeah one both there are things that we can participate in Yeah, and I think in this case they they're those two they rely on us so they're in six trying to Yeah, right hook us in and in seven it's They I think have the power as a as a CLG community to provide their own input to The way up they just need to be notified shouldn't they be getting there is then yeah, but they haven't been they they Haven't been in you know Like I said, but it's seven maybe one. That's more of a doesn't have to be I think you could just do it. Yeah, we can just do it and give them give them the copies. I Think they wanted to formalize it with a policy or something But I don't know if it necessarily needs that it's just an action we can do it and see what see what happens when they get them Eight continues to assist historic property owners with grant writing which we already do Um Nine They support the lane use plan Which we haven't written yet, but some people highlight this or context is Revised the city's agreement with the capital complex to administer design review rules in order to clarify the roles and responsibilities of each party That's interesting that that's a low priority But it's it's one we have tried periodically from year to year to year we've tried When tried once my office tried when I've been there once and it hasn't been very successful So we'll see we keep waiting as administrations change. We go back see if we can get an agreement So there are no design review rules right now In the capital complex the they capital complex regulates their own their own right What we've been trying to get is an agreement that goes through it says that we will we basically do this anyways We don't do design review The way our attorneys and we believe is the exemption for the capital complex is only for design review So the capital complex committee will review for design But we review for everything else the capital complex committee thinks they are Sovereign sovereign and nothing no zoning can apply in The capital complex which that's not what state law says, but that's what they have an attorney general opinion from 1971 that says they're God and we can't do anything to them Well a year in that opinion can go in the historic run Pretty close And it's so it's it's interesting It's wrong because it was based on the opinion was based on old law That doesn't exist anymore, but it doesn't change the fact that they keep throwing this thing back out Somebody read something and they don't have any and they don't have they don't have any application forms They don't have any way of filing. They don't have any way of Searching the land records because there are no land records. They Don't have any standards with respect to anything. There are no parking standards. No storm water standards. There's no Building height setbacks. No The only thing they have are design standards. So we're like if the only rules you've adopted our design standards and State law only really says you guys regulate design standards Then you guys do design standards and we'll regulate all the rest. So Mike, tell me if you really feel Frustrating to sit in that meeting But I've sat with you know two different PGS people and each one of them keeps coming back and saying no no no I'm like whatever, you know, this is You know, you guys don't have any rules but So in any event we still enforce the zoning on everything else even though Officially, we don't have their blessing to do so So we would still like to reach a point where we can get that agreement written. We've got a draft written up They just don't want to play ball. So fine Stop me from issuing this only permit And actually the developers and real estate people actually appreciate it because they have something in the land records that says that this Construction was okay, and there are only eight privately owned buildings there in the capital complex That's really all we care about But we told them we will fully exist everything that's state-owned we will do no zoning For the state-owned buildings We well we that was part of the agreement was we will fully exempt any state-owned properties And of the six privately owned properties, we will regulate everything that's not designed for you Because they said they regulate everything attorney opinion that says we can't do anything I see The Yeah, we've we've issued permits for them the new one We issued permits except for design review Just despite the state So yeah, 11 and 12 are the same so those are just Yeah, let's keep doing that in another category there are not many things left it really is just Going to be a strategy these are the things we want to do that are new and different These are the things that we're going to continue to do and these are the things that we're going to parking lot bike rack as options for If there happens to be an opportunity that comes along then So Two things one What is what are your next steps going to be with this and second is there anything we need for us right now? That's hoping to you to help do the next thing if this gets Your blessing if you guys say hey, this is good with what the decisions we made tonight I dropped this in the basket with housing which we already finished I'll make these changes here Or make some notes of it because what will eventually happen is the decision We just made here to put them into three categories sort by new continue and By crack and by priorities So if we do it here, we'll do it for all the other ones so but at this point That's a good suggestions. It's gonna make it work better And like I said eventually when we get to the end we have aspiration goals and then strategies organized in some way all together That we can reference that I think that will work better than saying the same thing three times So HPC is not going to see these again. I mean our modifications. No, no that was no because they've They've changed it twice So we've made changes and kind of said we guys think about this and so I think at this point we we make these changes and then When we've worked to the public hearing process when we start to compile things and build towards our process we can They they can come back in and Sit out there and I think once we have Once we have them all lined up, we're gonna look at them again and make our changes once we see them all together Yeah, so we're just saying okay shelf right now So first pass so for right now, I feel like it might be a good idea if we had something official Your motion to a firm has changed Mike has a motion I don't want to give anyone like the false Yeah Or like something might not change To just you know agree to the changes that we discussed I think it's better than just not having anything on the record that we Think So we won't but next time we won't look at we're done looking at this right now, so we might as well say do we want to have a motion to Categorize the way that we discussed move on to other chapters Just emotions and we completed the initial Motion to consider initial review complete In the short view and Second In the short view complete is fine I don't think we need to add the other things because we've got I will I will do those other things All right So we have a little more than 10 minutes left Just give a quick two cents of What this is so there's a little bit up top it's the city council calls it community prosperity That's So the city council calls it within a community of prosperity I was actually working on this through with Laura when she was here and they've since hired and lost another executive director So did you even get a chance to work with her? No, I met with her twice Unfortunately she'd seem like she was gonna be a wonderful and great asset and I'm sorry to see that it didn't work out But so this is not necessarily complete You'll see a couple places where it has little questions like you know doing benchmarks or a couple of things but we kind of worked through it and If you have like a plan that was just adopted to right like and in this two years ago that touches on a lot of those things from the EDSP economic development strategic plan a lot of these things kind of come from that Laura took a lot of Looks at things she had a plan. She was working on she had a work plan. She was working on Or in working from which we kind of took some of those pieces so This kind of just drops a few of those pieces in It's laid out as one big aspiration all those things with the dots, you know Our is their single aspiration and then the goals are obviously Targeting the educated workforce the flexible efficient building stock the building economic climate quality place High quality for the place. So I put that out there because it may not necessarily be Be as fully developed as the ones that you saw or having priorities because there hasn't been anyone to have a priority list with but it was kind of We could start thinking and chewing on these things here of Getting a sense of where they were thinking and it's a challenging one to do because it's always been a difficult Topic, you know, how what what is economic development? What is community prosperity? How are we going to? Evaluate that it's not as easy as it as you think You know, you can have an economic development plan that grows to grand list grows jobs grows your GDP for lack of a better term meal. We're not really great jobs We're just going to have the existing businesses be more vibrant and make some money What's your metric, you know, how are we going to measure success? How do we know if we've been successful in our economic development? You know We're not going to measure our GDP, but you can have that you know did that that sense, you know But is it creating more jobs? Well, they they have a benchmark under go see Yes, and that one was based on the Meals receipts and meals and meals tax. Yeah so they this was based on their it is based on partly with The EDSP and partly with Flora's plan and their target was they were Or and are receiving a hundred thousand dollars a year for five years. That's what the EDSP laid out Is that we were going to fund? Them in an exchange they were going to go and basically be growing our grand list and growing our Income such that five years from the starting date. They would be generating $100,000 a year new revenue, so it would justify continuing to spend on a thousand dollars a year on them Because they're paying for themselves So that's why these come in here. Hey, we need 20 new establishments. I Was looking at jobs. They were looking at establishments, so okay But they wanted to increase meals and increase the rooms and meals by 42% and a lot of that was predicated on getting the hotel and They got the hotel in they would they could help to coordinate that and And be in a position to be able to take advantage of those additional revenues That's Giving a little bit of what they're thinking is whether that's a good benchmark or the best benchmark for the city That was the best benchmark for MDC because if they wanted to continue to have funding They're gonna have to continue to meet their EDSP target of generating hundred thousand dollars a year So we may look at that through a different set of glasses that so they didn't choose to look through and in terms of Tax receipts, which is the point, right? Well meals and rooms No, I guess I was thinking property. No, not by property tax though. No property isn't isn't that what they're supposed to be doing? It's more difficult. It's more difficult to do That because it doesn't change very often You're only gonna capture those for new construction. So yeah, we can catch a Caledonia spirits but making our downtown More vibrant and better economically won't actually change anything in the grand list because Those buildings aren't being bought and sold in a reappraisal. Everybody kind of goes up So it would be a more difficult metric for them to use. I think is why they They avoided that one Bad to keep a track on that over time Ignite the fire loan program Yes, so we have EDS we have economic development funds revolving loan funds and They were gonna call it the ignite the fire loan. It's it's really about trying to gap financing to help local businesses Not it really isn't just it was gap funding so gap funding is really looking at a Conventional lender may be willing to loan a hundred thousand dollars for a project that it's going to cost a hundred and thirty thousand dollars So there's still a gap. Well, if the bank is willing to put up that much we can be willing to put up a loan for thirty thousand dollars to fill that gap and Working with different lenders the lenders can be The way they can structure it is to that we get paid back first And so it was an interesting program that the banks would be willing to have like an interest-only loan There are a couple of lenders in town that were willing to sign on to this program to go through and say well if you do under this program alone through this bank Then they'll do a five-year deferred Loan or interest-only loan for that five years and in those five years the Barrower is paying back the city first Then after that they would owe the rest of that so they you know in that scenario The person who borrowed the money only has to pay back a thirty thousand dollar loan Starting off starting off and then the hundred thousand of the bigger hundred thousand dollar loan later so it and Again from my standpoint. I was like I have no idea if if lenders think this is a good thing and Businesses think it's a good thing and we have the available cash in the bank account because we've got Revolving loan funds from the 1980s That is just cash that's sitting there. How can how can we take this cash? Which was our question to them. We've got a hundred thousand dollars cash. How do we get this cash moving? To help you businesses Do things they said well this this type of gap financing is really helpful. All right. Well, that's that's an idea Sounds like an EDM festival I feel like we might be in a room So that's you can work on that one Related whatever as we've got Not working with the parks Transportation transportation has is working on a draft trying to get theirs to the committee they have got their Aspirations and goals done now they're working on strategies. Have you been working with them parks transportation energy?  No? Oh, I Think there was some aspect that was not quite finished. Oh, okay Conservation Commission, so I have parks conservation Commission at energy So I think I've got four or five of them that are going right now, so Unfortunately like three of them meet the same night and the same night is RPC so Seriously But the RPC got pushed to April so that's good Yeah, parks transportation conservation Commission energy Economic development and working with Curt on utilities, so those are the ones I've got going right now So you think what do you think will be next? I'm it's really up to the committees I push hard to try to get them to make decisions and to move them out But unfortunately a lot of these committees meet like energy meet once a month and so to try to get yeah To try to go and say you know I really want you guys to try to go and review these things And get them out and get them done. It's somewhat challenging, but hopefully Hopefully we can get people not to be Historic resources, you know where it's nitpicking every word for five months You know we really just wanted if we can get something. It's good and get it get it moving There's always opportunities to revise it As we move this along but so are we gonna are you gonna interject to them that they should Priorities they should do relative costs as well Yeah, the priorities is really the most important the relative costs I can figure out because the costs are just you know is it something that's less than a thousand dollars something between a thousand and a Hundred thousand or something more than a hundred thousand dollars most of those I can estimate. Oh, it's a grant to study something That's a medium because it's gonna be anywhere from ten to thirty thousand dollars That's gonna be relatively small policies and a bunch of other things are relatively low Yeah, and then building an energy farm. That's a high priority. That's a high cost It just helps us to evaluate potentially if we have an idea of what it is. Yeah Anybody motion to adjourn