All right. We're recording you're all set have a great meeting guys. Thank you. Thanks. Seeing the presence of a quorum I'm going to call this meeting of governance organization and legislation to order it's October 21. According to my watch is exactly 1030 in the morning. I'm going to call this meeting of governance organization. And pursuant to government make bakers March 12, 2020 order suspending certain provisions. Of the open meeting law. This meeting of GOL is being conducted via remote participation. And just for the sake of. Doing it right. I'm going to just check in with all my colleagues. Make sure we all can be seen and be heard. So Lynn. Here. Okay. And Mandy. Here. And Andy. Okay. Thank you. Pat is not available today. She had an emergency. And so she is not with us. So it'll be just the four of us today. And a couple of quick things I want to touch on before we turn to the really the main item, perhaps the sole item for today's discussion. I did send to KP law, the facial recognition by law. Paul confirmed that with me, I think yesterday. It's been sent to them for legal review. And as soon as it comes back, then we would look at it. That makes sense to me. I think we agreed that it makes sense to send it out for legal review first. But again, that's, we can discuss that if you wish. Anyway, I did send it out. And we still have three questions. Two of them from our discussion. And one from a council brewer that I have sent through Paul, KP law. And as you might not be surprised, we haven't heard back. They were minor matters related in particularly for us. We had asked, there was a question about successors in interest. You wanted the language looked at. And also you'd made a slight change. And so anyway, they were all sent. At least I assume they were, I'm going to check again. I'm going to check again. I'm going to check again. How important are those to the sponsors? I can really press Paul or I can just remind him. So we had, and then the Alyssa question was, was I reached out to Alyssa and tried to frame it. And then I sent that as well. So. For the questions we had any. One to 10. Must have an answer before the second reading. I mean, obviously after the second reading, it's moot. I think we have, I personally want to see an answer to all of the questions. Okay. All right. But then I will press Paul later today or just, I'm not pressing him, but I would just remind him. And, and make sure that he has sent them in that. But Mandy Joe's the sponsor. So Andy Joe. Yeah, I'm from the sponsors point of view. I don't think it's pressing. Yeah. I think it would be nice to have the answers, but I, I wouldn't. You know, I don't see. Any need to. Not move forward without the answers. It's a bylaw. If we get answers that are like, ah, we can always change it. And it's just a two week delay, you know. You know, and, and given that some of it, we're not in the middle of contracting for construction yet. So. Good. We have three weeks till the next meeting. Well, they had at least three weeks since those questions were sent out. So at least assuming they were sent out. Paul usually gets back to me. But I will double check on that. But yeah. Yeah. I, and are there any, were there any questions from the other night that need to go to legal? I don't think so. I didn't have any noted. No. And. Mandy, Joe, you and I haven't talked about what those questions were and how we're getting answers, but. Do you want to use this opportunity now? Oh. What, what, what. There were three questions at during the bylaw. One was from Evan. And I think we've figured out who's due on what and it's getting taken care of. I don't think we need to take GOL time for that. Okay. All right. I just, I just want to make sure we're clear, clear sailing when we get to the night. Okay. Then that's all I have as far as preliminary business. The main item for discussion is our continued review of the town manager. Evaluation process and the process for creating the goals. And what we have. Lynn sent us a draft timeline. For town manager review. And I think that is where we probably should begin. And, and then if we have time, we can go back to some of the other items and decide what. We want to do and how we want to proceed from there. So I don't know if you want to put that up on the screen. Lynn, if you can. I have a copy. Obviously, maybe all of you have a copy in front of you. I was sent by email to everyone last night. And I don't think I actually got around to putting it in the packet. So it's on the screen and we'll make sure it goes in the packet. So just talk through. A couple of things here as before we go forward. Anything in italics means it's this year. It's in the year you're in. Okay. And then later on, when you get down, I think I caught them all. When you get down further. Maybe everything ended up in italics now. It's when you're not in italics, like coming year's goals. Then regular. So that next year. And, you know, when we get more formal with this chart, I can code all of that. But the other thing is. I put something in here that was more formal with regard to reviewing. The goals and also. But the more formal thing I put in was reviewing. Was having the manager discuss. More about the goals, but let me just start with my. Or categories and maybe there's a fifth category. So one is just setting and review of goals. Okay. Another one is the actual town manager self evaluation. The third is the issue of how do we get the data instrument development and data collection. And the fourth one is the town manager's evaluation and contract. Okay. And I'm not going to, there's nothing perfect about this. I think it's always useful to have something to start with. So on the. So on the, whoops. In health. So under goal setting. Again, this is where the italics versus the existing versus the non italicized. So let's just skip for a moment. So the, the. So the reason that we are interested that we, in April, start discussing. The coming years goals and that be a council discussion. And then we bring then GLL brings that back. As a draft. And it's reviewed in May. And then finalized in June. Which by then people will have at least. One of the concerns is that we want to make sure that if things weren't accomplished in one year, they're kind of carried over. And this would be our opportunity. We may need to change the timeline it may need to be that this comes more towards the end of a meeting. And the other option is we may want to shift this up earlier, but right in here is getting ready for the next year. Okay. All right. So, now we now we're in this year. Okay, so I suggested are we are in the present year. Okay, back in the year before we've set the goals. I've suggested that in September, we would review the goals. Three months later, we would review them again. And that three months after that, we would review them again. And I started by having this be in January but then I said, you know, an outgoing council really should review them as they leave an in going council may decide they need to review them as they come in. So that is my proposed goal setting, but the goal setting and the review of goals actually is very in sync with the next column, which is the town manager self evaluation. Now, this is something we don't presently, we don't do this either, but we certainly don't do this. On the other hand, halls. The town manager reports that he provides at every meeting essentially gives us updates, but they're not necessarily organized with relationship to the goals. So, this was an idea that he would not have to do a big written process, but he could provide an oral update. Next month, the town council would review so that these two items would be in sync with with each other. We under he gives us a sense of where he is, we look at whether or not we need to make some adjustments. And then same thing happens again, he gives us a sense of where he is in May. We have to make some adjustments. Same thing happens in August and September. This is an opportunity particularly here for us to take the goals that we did in June. Have him say you know things have changed or boy I think we need to add this or you know whatever. And this would be the place where the town council would then update the goals. Everybody question so far. Okay. One very basic one just to make sure we're clear about this. What is a year for the, what, what is the period of time that we're defining goals for because there's the calendar year which it's not. There's the fiscal year and then there's the contract year because his contract expires in August. Right. So, I'm suggesting that we stay with the July one, the June 30, but that may be something we want to debate. And the only reason to do that. I'm just going to make this as notes. The reason to do that, you know, is to make sure that, you know, we do that is consistent with the fiscal year. Now, we could decide differently, but Andy, I just want to point out one of the things was when I got to this point, I said, oops, I need to go check the calendar. And that is the point at which we would complete the town manager's evaluation. Okay, all the data is collected. And the one thing I want to note is right now, the contract requires that if we don't intend to renew and give him a multi year contract. The contract says that we must notify by June 3. No, because the contract itself ends in August. So, your question I think is totally appropriate I think we want to discuss, do we keep the present year we use to keep, do we go August August, but regardless of whatever we do. We can do this notification by June 3. If we're not going to give him another multi year contract. That's why I included in the email I sent you, both the contract and the charter because in the contract, it refers directly to the charter. Does that leave that as an open question. Yeah, we'll leave it as an open question because looking back, we complete the evaluation in June. I believe you have to go down a little bit. See that page. Okay. So it's very close that last year for the council will be sitting at that point. The timeline would be very close between whether it's able to complete the evaluation prior to making the decision is to whether to offer an additional contract. I think you'll recall last year when are two, not just this past fall, but the fall before the contract actually was different. We had to essentially give them almost a year's notice. And I was actually when I went back and looked at the present contract I'm going, my God, that's a short notice. And then I actually sent Paul an email and said, listen, don't panic, but I just want to check. This is what your contract says and he says you're right. His previous contract had a much longer notice of intent not to review. And professionally, I would expect, I think this is a mistake in the present contract. Yeah, of course I wasn't involved in the present contract I negotiated the prior contract. And the reason for that long period had to do with the question of whether the voters were going to approve a change in government and what the managers role would be if any in the new contract. So, it was a very difficult topic to work through in that negotiation but it's totally irrelevant to where we are now. I just think that professionally. And if you look at the clauses in his contract in terms of how much severance he gets each year he gets additional severance because you know when it's basically the higher your salary is the more time they assume you need to find a job to replace your existing job. That's the measure. So let me just let me finish this and then let's talk about the whole process. Then there's a whole issue of the data and we do need to review and redraft I think we need a new survey for staff. I personally think we need a new new process for how we do, not a new but a additionally revised process for how we do the public which includes both committees and general public. And I think it has to be something where we give them more of a rating scale, because right now what we get is a bunch of, you know, words, and we all look at those. Nevertheless, so basically I suggested that this February, we at a minimum February should start looking at the collection instruments, finalize them and distribute them as early as April, which by then people have a sense of how the year is going. The biggest problem they have at this point is looking at the financials. Then distribute make sure it's all back and it gives counselors this month. Now the biggest problem here is, this is the month that the council does the budget and for the finance committee. This is the month that they're swamped. So, I, the whole, you know, we talked about that last time. And that's, I probably should have in finalized contract. All right, so I, my goal today for us was to basically do exactly what Andy started doing and that is, you know, talk about it as a whole concept, not, you know, don't get into it, don't try to get into the instruments or anything else just talk about it as a whole concept. I think part of the concept issue, the big part of it is, is just the whole timing and being clear on it, and everyone being clear on who's doing what at what time. So that that is a big important step. I think my general view is that we over evaluate, but that I'm not sure that even has a place here. In other words, I'd like to see some of this simplified, but the most important thing beyond is just getting it, as you've been doing getting a process in specific dates. And then I assume the president but also perhaps the chair of GOL would be keeping an eye on this and other words keeping track of deadlines and so on. Assuming we don't get a problem with the council saying why GOL doing this. I don't think any of them are going to rush forward to offer to do it. And I thought that the goal is to sort of take some of the burden off the president. I thought several goals. One is to take some of the burden off of the president but I think the other goal was to make sure that the president isn't looking at this with a single eye that there's really looking at this and I personally think having GOL at this responsibility is fine if the council at some point wants to change that process that's their decision but right now they gave it to GOL. I mean I like the way you have inserted a place for the manager to do a kind of review or status review of goals to the council and I do wonder. I'm sure we all wonder you know practically how this will actually happen given how our meetings go. Usually when we get to Paul, he has like three minutes to do his report and then people asking questions, but this I assume would have to be a formal agenda item. And he would have a few minutes to, and then there'd be questions, but I like that. And it also introduces the thought that had come along that. Okay, we set these goals but we should review them occasionally. So this puts that in the process. I guess three times a year is not too much. It's basically every quarter. Yeah. So, and it gives you an opportunity to. So you want right before you start discussing next year's goals. And then the events in February, the council reviews them and then you start discussing them so. And I didn't I didn't try to nail this down the weeks because first of all the years change and second of all, it's got to depend on the meetings within the month within the years. Mandy Joe has her hand up. A couple things I, I might be with George on over reviewing here. Three. I mean, we're essentially dealing with goals four times a year. That seems like a lot to me, especially if that's not just a status update from the manager, that's a potential changing of goals every three months, you know, at that point. What's our manager supposed to do to focus on stuff if every three months one could be deleted and another one added and, and that I don't think that gives a lot of consistency I think I'd rather see it go down to. I'm not sure I'm, I'm, it's it's the, it's the oral presentation regarding the status that I'm really concerned about I think it's more of the reviewing them after that presentation to say well should we change them or not. Because if we start changing them every quarter. Our poor managers going to like go out of his mind on what's he actually supposed to be doing. And the staff's going to do that so I think I'd almost either go to just a twice a year review, you know, a mid year review of goals, whether that be in December for continuing Council or January at the very beginning of a new term. I'm not sure you know it could always be January if we're passing in June or late December if we're continuing, maybe reports three to two other times so sort of a third of the year every four months instead of every three months but I think there's just too much in terms of reviewing going on. By the way, your was that they're not going to change them, they're just going to say yeah well you're on target, however, and I, pardon me for interrupting, but for instance, if we had set the goals, say we were at fit and finished with the goals. In May or something, we would have had to do some revision. So you could also say it's maybe twice a year or any other time as needed. I just think if we're doing too much, we're not going to get anywhere. I like the timeline for setting the goals. You know, I, I'm not sure we need three months to do it I'm looking at this and I'm thinking late April is when we start the discussion, potentially even in early May, because if we're aiming for end of June adoption. You probably, I think we did it in six weeks this year, and if, and that was with a whole new document and and format. So it could probably be consolidated into two months instead of three. In terms of the April, May, June goal setting and review the instrument development and data, you know, I've got some of the same concerns I think that Andy has, you know, at the same time I think it would be good to have stuff finalized and compensation finalized in June, because then we can know it's in the budget right now Paul's just sort of creating his own salary in the budget without any knowledge as to what we're going to do with it. So to have that there I'm not so concerned about it not being sort of in line with the actual contract time because when you vote it you can just say effective in August or whatever at the new contract date. In terms of consolidation, what I was saying with goal setting I think we can also consolidate the instrument development or at least the data collection I think it would be nice to talk about how long people need to respond to surveys. What counselors need I sometimes feel like we're dragging this out we've got a self evaluation done five weeks or so before we have to complete hours. It sits in an inbox or you've read it you get the boards and committees well before we're thinking about ours and I almost feel like there's too much time in between everything. So I think a discussion of how long we need between sending out surveys and getting them back and when we want the self evaluation back and compared to when the counselors are filling stuff out because right now that's one of the first things that comes through before we've even seen board and committee responses. So I think it can probably be consolidated a little bit better. Yeah. Here, like this is because I think this year we do need to do a comprehensive review.  There are several things one is appreciate that Mandy brought up the question of the town manager salary and the budget and how that's determined. In reality, the whole budget process is going to be hard to sync with this anyway and I think we're not going to be able to do it will go crazy if we try and do it. The mayor has to actually deliver the budget on May 1 and then so he's got to be working on the budget and developing the budget prior to May 1. So he's the whole budget process just doesn't sync with this at all and I don't think we're going to make it work together very well but I don't think he's going to do anything. I think we're a manager that does anything that's totally crazy in this regard then that's something we ought to be evaluating them about. So that was sort of one topic that I was thinking about. Another thing that to pick up on what again what Mandy said and where we are is I think that it's important that we distinguish between is to review performance on goals and how the goals are going in the revision of goals. And that we actually come out with a just a point blank statement that revision of goals is can happen at any appropriate time by mutual agreement with the town manager. And but that there's not an automatic process to that that has to happen. And I always go back to think about the year that just passed because we had had any sense of it. You would have when COVID blew up. So hey we got to review the goals because COVID is now the major goal that was unanticipated and what needs to come off the plate in order to assure that there's time to deal with what is now the current crisis and that that would have been an appreciated conversation by all parties that had we done that and so looking at it we might want to think about it. The last thing that is going into all of us is that the history of this was that you'd complete an evaluation and that that would inform the goal setting process for the next year. And I think what we're doing now is decoupling that and my other for counselor who's a former select board member might have problems with that. I think there's other counselors that might have problems with that too. I'm sorry I was trying to just make this more of a look at progress versus make it sound like you're going to redo. And that was without going back to one of Mandy's points which was to not do it as often. I think that there are going to be counselors who feel like they're going to say here in March. I have no idea until I do the evaluation. I don't know how many people are going to say that. And, you know, and then one of the reasons why once we do the evaluation. I suggested that we do an update here was because that would be the time to change or tweak any goals. I totally agree there's too many of these but I was trying to also think about. How many years and changes in council, and when I mean is this something a brand new council should do in January, or is this something an outgoing council should do in December. That was one of my driving forces. Yeah Mandy Joe. In 10 years, I think a new council will want to look at the goals, because depending on what people ran on and whether there's, there's a potential for a massive change in counselors with their own priorities that they want reflected near immediately in the goals they don't want to have to wait six months for that. I was saying in a continuing year maybe you do that in December, November, December, but in an election year when the new councils coming in maybe it's saved for late January, where the first or second January meeting is when Paul reports on his progress on the goals puts it on an agenda, and then the council can talk about them. At that time. I also don't know whether the oral presentation regarding the status if it really is just a review and not a revision needs to be at a different time than the actual review of the goals I think they can be the same meeting, where you report on the status and say okay. And it's just it's as George was saying it's not part of the town managers report it's an agenda item and they're the same meeting. And this here, get rid of this. You can also put it all back in November to just to be also getting ready to write a foot. Okay. And then what you're also saying is, and it's just saying that this would move to here. But then I want to come back to the whether or not this is done. And then this would move to here, except in an election year. This would move to January. It's January in years the new council is inaugurated or sworn in. When a new council is seated yeah. It's going to be every other year. I'm sorry. It's going to be every other year, right. That's right. We've got three terms but from now on it's two. So every other year, you would have a slightly slightly different goal setting calendar wouldn't be hugely different but I think you're all right that in a new council year. They should review the goals and change that you've done in January.  And that was when we were meeting like every week, except for holidays. And it took, if we had spread it out over a regular meeting twice a month, it would have probably gone out but I mean I could step I could put I guess I'm thinking in many years the goals may not change that much. You know we had a whole new document and we really only focused on one or two of those goals in all of those meetings so if you'd start early if if you start with a council discussion which is not what we did this year we started with a presentation of goals, you might be able to minimize some of that back and forth because you'll have a better idea of what might get at it or whether anything is getting at it and if nothing's getting at it I think it'll go fairly quickly. So, in this case, I wonder if this should be moved to April. And then move this to May. You're talking about the progress. Yeah. I mean, to me that makes sense to put those those as close. I mean it's it's sort of that self evaluation, almost. Right, because the self evaluation I mean relates to the goals and the contract so. Yeah, it's a good point. So we have the discussion of how is this gone. That informs the goals discussion. And meantime, it also gives the town manager a little bit of a tip of saying you know, on this particular goal people are going to say, you didn't really reach it on this one, you know. So those are two options. I guess the question goes back to what Andy was saying is, what's the self evaluation for, is it for contract purposes or is it for goals and what are the goals for does it relate to the contract negotiation does, does column B relate to column E. And which one does the self evaluation relate to. This relates to this, and that this is the only time we in writing, asked the manager to talk about goals. Which means it relates to column B though because they'll be talking about all the goals. This relates to this. This relates to this. And this relates to this. So the self evaluation relates to the prior goals, instead of the, the new goals. I need to do more, maybe even make these bold or something as well so that they out more. Or color code, what goes to what thing and maybe do it by fiscal year instead of January to December, maybe order it July to June. Because I think that'll be a little clearer than. Okay. What I'm hearing in broad outline is that we are not going to be, we're going to do as a council, a sort of review of goals. Once a year, basically or halfway through the year. So we set them, and then six months later December, whatever, we come back to them formally. We can do it anytime that's perfectly correct. But do we want to have a formal, you know, in the process, I'd say the six rather than doing quarterly or whatever but just, I like that you've not doing it that often, because it can be done anytime in theory, right. But formally we would do that in December as a council, halfway through. And I don't, I don't know what I just did but don't worry about it. So we would remove this review and presentation and just say that it either happens in December with an existing council, or in January with a new council. Get rid of these two. Yes. That would be my, my feeling is the less, less is more. I don't know how the others feel less of the reviewing of the goals. Well, but certainly by the council, but also with the town manager coming and having to do formal three times a year. It's out there for discussion. Do you want to hear from in three times a year as an agenda item on the goals themselves? Or do you want to hear from him at the halfway points, such as the council would do it. So is he going to weigh in three times a year and we do it once formally. And everything else is left. I mean, we can do it anytime but that would be the formal process. Or would you prefer that he and the council be in sync. So when we do our six month review, he also it would be part of a presentation where he would give his update. I'm just thinking practically in terms of time and energy. I think that it practically in terms of time and energy, it doesn't make sense to do it more than twice a year. It really is hard to distinguish between the review of the goals and self evaluation. They're really the same thing. Right. And, yeah, I don't know that it adds a lot. And as far as the revision of the goals I'm still back to where I was is that I recall that it was either in the factor. But it was one of the documents I read this morning was talking about it being a mutual product of the manager and the council. So it really is by agreement that you revise goals. I don't know that that needs to be an automatic process is as much as if it's, if the need is identified and there's agreement to revise you do it. It has to be agreement. I understand you any my my sense is that we set the goals the manager then carries them out. Obviously if he has a, you know, if he has a problem with it he will articulate it. But my sense is he looks to us to tell him where we're supposed to be going. It is a mutual process it's not just you know we hand down dictates but it's essentially on us as a body of 13 to figure out where we want to go I think that we need to talk about that I hope you today or some point because I think that's extremely difficult. And, you know, seven drafts. I mean, maybe we did it quicker this time but I'm not optimistic that it's going to go so easily. But we're supposed to come up with the, the goals and then he's supposed to carry them out. In the contract section or point to annually the council and the town manager shall define and generally prioritize and writing goals and objectives, which they determine necessary proper operation of the town and the attainment of the council's policy objectives. It's a joint process the council and the town manager shall define. The contract. That's not in the chart. It is in the charter. It is in the chart. Okay. I don't think so. The charter has nothing about goals the charter just says we have to review evaluate the manager on a yearly basis. I would question that contract language myself but that's, you know, if that's the contract that's what it is. That shows you how closely I read the contract, but anyway. Can I just weigh in here a moment because having been involved twice in the total settings since we started the council. We actually have done this two different ways. The year that we had the sub, you know, the separate committee. We had several meetings where Paul interacted with us. And it was a much more of a back and forth. Now, part of that was because of the make up the committee part of it was because we had never done it before, etc. When we did it this year, we did not have that level of back and forth. And so I think it's a, I, it is in the, it's either in the contract or the charter, I guess it's in the contract that it should be mutual. And I'm not clear. I don't, I think if we did anything this year was we went to the a little bit to the other side of not being as mutual, but I also felt all would have spoken up at any point in time and said, I don't agree with this. He points he was at to well meetings participating and he was the one who very much was supportive of the direction that we were taking as far as how we were defining goals. Then Mandy took that conversation and produced the draft and I agree if he had been unhappy with it. He would have said so but I think that she was following what had come out of a meeting in which he was a active participant. I agree. Lynn might have a different perspective and he might have a different perspective but what I've heard from him on a number of occasions is a request to us to tell up tell him where we want to go. And it's hard for 13 of us to come to that but we did to some degree with this current set but my sense has always been and it may be mistaken. But when I when he comes to us he always is saying, I need to hear from you where you want to go. Tell me what your goals are. And then I will carry those out and and pass them on to staff staff wants to know where we're going to. I'm not able to agree to a certain extent, but my sense has always been and it may be mistaken that it's really our job. 13 of us to figure out what we think where we think the time should be going, and it's Paul's job to execute that we are the vision body. He is the executive executor. And I believe that when we came up with or when Mindy Joe and then we, you know, agreed to a set of policy goals and then management goals. I think he really viewed the policy goals is kind of our vision. Yes. And I don't I'm not criticizing how it happened this year. No, nor I know. Frankly was laborious. And I mean, people wanted to get down to well what was he going to show us as evidence. Right. We just didn't do that this year and I'm, frankly, quite glad to begin. I never, I felt that this year, this year's set of goals was much more reasonable in terms of not being as prescriptive. The prescriptive nature of goals I think when you're dealing with as high a level of position as Paul is in is really not appropriate. And the other thing this gets back to something that I maybe is to test for George where you're at but the, if you don't have the manager is an active participant in the process and the way it's described in the contract. Then it's placing the possibility of a future council defining goals that the manager thinks are unattainable and whether that's reasonable to negotiate to establish goals that he's not a participant in to say, hey, wait a minute, that's just not an attainable thing. It just doesn't strike me as reasonable. No, I certainly agree he should be a participant. I'm not saying that. But I guess what I am saying is the buck stops with us. Now with him. If this if the if the train goes off the rails. It's our it's the up 13 of us that are responsible.  But the big picture is up to us, not not to the time manager, but your I do agree absolutely should be part of the process. But in the end, maybe it's just philosophical point really but we're supposed to be where the vision people for better or worse. Yes. And certainly, he should be part of it. Yes. But in the end, we're the ones who get elected and unelected. And we're the ones who responsible for that vision. I don't think it changes anything. I think the process is, you know, he should be involved. His presence at GOL was great. I think we're more concerned with my concerns how we get 13 people in the space of a month or two to come up with with a set of goals that can all live with we went through seven drafts this time. Maybe that's just the way it has to be. I've always thought that it made sense to have some kind of, of, you know, retreat. But given the time demands on all of us maybe that's just just not possible. So we do it in council. And we do it by going back and forth with GOL and so Mandy writes draft three draft four draft five draft six draft seven. You know, it's, it had to be done. I mean, it was in I think in the end it worked out it worked out okay, but it took an enormous amount of time and energy, and we're trying to figure out a way to make it if possible a little less difficult and painful. Maybe there's no way to do that but no I agree. Tom Andrew needs to be involved. I'm not questioning that. It's just a philosophical point. And then there's the other question that comes up in this conversation which is what happens when the new council comes in. And how much should we create a process for the new council to essentially redo goals when you're so far into a year. I think it's like we're struggling with that in the last round, in its last round as to what was it going to put into performance goals and how it was going to anticipate the transition. The reasons why you raise the question up here. How should a year be defined and you know I can argue this one both ways. I could argue it that the prior has a responsibility to leave things in a nice manner, and yet not dictate to the future council. But you know two years is really a short time. We, you know, it's, I mean that. So when I was doing research on like gold documents, a lot of towns were moving towards in manager council systems were moving towards two or three year goals, not one year goals. There were some revisions throughout but recognizing that something like our climate action goal that we have as a policy goal isn't going to be complete in a year, you know where it might it's not going to be complete in two years depending on what you're doing. So the question is what it's why I like the separation between policy and management goals because the management goals are something that I foresee, basically staying the same year on year out with some of those sub goals or objectives you know some of those one two and threes changing depending on what the flavor of the year is in terms of do we want to focus on a or B in terms of some of that but most of those I think are going to say the same. It's a question of should we be looking at two year goals where you don't where you just, you know, you review them every six months but you're not, you know, so you're revising it every six months but you're recognizing that these are not one year goals. At the same time, if you get a brand new council in January are they ready to set two year goals. Probably not. And that might not be what they want to spend their first two months doing so leaving them with a set of goals that is a yearly set of goals that they can at least talk about and start thinking about and maybe change immediately but get four months in before they're really looking at them might be best. I think the one example that I can think of and I won't specifically name what it is but if a group of people chose to run for counsel because they wanted to achieve a major change in something. And they sold that to the public and the public elected a majority that believes that that's what should be done. There will be the demand to do it and just the way it is, right, right. I don't think there's any process that you can create to to not one wouldn't want to even prevent that if the voters have decided and they've elected them. Then the council is going to do what it's going to do so I think we just want a basic process that gives a sense of order to what can become a disorderly thing and just pass it on to the next council. And when they're elected and in January if they've suddenly got a mandate from the voters to do something totally different that was not in the previous, you know, that year set of goals that perfectly free to, you know, say to the town manager, this is what we want you to do and it's starting right now. If we can build a process for that. It's already there. What we want is just a process for the larger issue of just evaluation and so gold setting in general, and I don't think we need to overthink it. I think if we're happy with the process and the calendar, I like the idea of a calendar that's that's, you know, follows the fiscal year. I think, and as many suggested it make it whatever it is it's clearest and most basic form. And if we can get that. Then we have the rest of this, you know, we can't we nothing we do about it anyway, and it's silly to worry about it. And hopefully it'll help them.  Yeah, exactly right I mean right anything could happen we just I think I don't think that would happen but they certainly could change a goal they could they could decide we want to, you know, whatever. And that's the right. Yeah, actually, when you think about it though it's not likely to happen I think that one thing I think we should return to as Mandy's point about whether goals should be set into your period. There's no inside with council terms. And if you put into the document that the goals will be the two year goals will be established in May. For most new councils, they're going to come in and say, okay, well that's what the process is, and that's kind of they're going to need some time to work it out anyway and to explore if it's a major goal change. I think the most reasonable people would say we've been elected we have the power to do this this is what we want to do, but they're not going to question the timetable and if they do so be it. So, I think we just yeah. If you have a large turnover in the council. You could, and that would happen for any number of reasons but one reason it might happen is because people are pretty pissed at how the last council has worked and now have some very clear and definite changes in goals. They want to see, they're going to come in and throw this whole thing out anyway.  Let's talk about that for a minute I hear bandy's point it makes sense and we have other towns and cities perhaps going towards it but not all the goals would fit this some goals would just be you know reasonably thought of as say one year goals. And some of the goals, you know like climate change, and some certainly some of the ones that we've put in I mean that I think all of the ones pretty much that we put in are definitely multi year goals, more than even two years. So I'm wondering, you know, especially given our term is only two years to begin with. In the future, how much we really want to put into you know, I mean in the actual document would you say and this is a two year goal. When you know in fact it's really like a 10 year goal or a, you know will take a long time for us to do some of these things. How important is it to have that stated, other than just maybe just acknowledging that in a goals document. Many of these are not here. It's a question. I just wonder. I mean I put out there that some councils do to three year goals whatever their term is four years. I don't necessarily agree with it.  I worry that if you that and say a document is a two year goal, the council's going to ignore it for two years, you know, at least if they're one year goals. Even with a plan like this, you're not ignoring it for two years you're coming back to it every year, even if you missed the six month review or the three month review. And you don't feel as bad changing something and saying you know that but I also think it allows for better check on progress to the goal. You know, if you say it's a two year goal, you're less, I just feel like you're less likely a year in to say well you haven't made sufficient progress. You know, because well they've got another year left whereas even if we know climate action goals, you know we have something working towards 2025 I think is one of the things that's in the climate action goals we passed the Council, the year and a half ago. We can, every year we can look at that and say how much progress has he made, do we think we're still going to get there. And so I would support single year goals, realizing that a council, a newly elected council may come in and throw them out but that's that's their prerogative. You know, all we can do is leave it to them to do that if they want but give them a timeline that makes sense if if there isn't a big, you know, and or how to do it even if there is a big change you know they can look at this and say oh it probably takes six weeks to set goals even if we start in January, you know, if they want to change them, they've still got a framework. When I think of our six policy goals. I'm trying to come up with the sixth one but five to five that I can think of right at the top of my head are definitely multi year goals that you know it makes no sense to put a number to them. There might be some goal would come along where it might make sense but, and I think the idea of just you know treating them as year by year and seeing how are we doing some of these it sees it seems to me when I look at them I think it's hard to see these over the next couple of years climate change is not going to go away. Economic development's not going to go away. Maybe public safety and health might be a goal area that could change and hopefully we'll finally get out of the coven universe and public safety we might find a way of addressing this that that becomes less contentious with the community so that that would could be changed but some of these, you know the capital projects. We'd all like to think that right that's a multi year. That's the one I actually see changing because of the way we wrote it we wrote it for planning a fiscal plan this year. And so when we get that it'll change to presumably executing and potentially finding locations and stuff. But it's still going to probably be there I assume. The buildings build is certainly going to be there. I mean, the other thing is in this is getting off the track and we can pull it back but you know how specific do we get with, I mean, Manny's right about the management side of things I think that's been really the, that's been handled very well. I think quite well. But with policy, how detailed, I mean, I've looked at, remember when we first were before we were inaugurated but we went through some training. And was it what was the city that or the town like the manager came from. It was Franklin's Jeff nutting.  Maybe that detail but it's very concrete so at the end of the year either you did or you didn't. And that was a goal. Set of goals for that and that's what he showed us as I recall they were they were not the broad kind of goals that we've created. How do people, I mean, what we do is we have these broad what we've created at the moment and as a possible template, it's broad set of goals. And then within that and tied to specific ideally specific Council actions, votes, some kind of you know, Council decision or action or vote is ideally what we'd like. As it put right, Andy. So I look at the, the one I'm looking at as a community health and safety, which has two parts to it. One has to do with 19. And the other is in accordance with Councils vote and why 27 2020 and in consultation with Council and residents of Amherst fully explore alternative options and providing services to respond to issues of homelessness, mental health, other non criminal calls to emergency dispatch and the results of the Council no one later than January 31 2020. That was very specific. So going forward, as a model or template, we're trying to do both things. Right, we're trying to, well, first of all, we're trying to make sure it's tied to some specific Council action or decision, because a number of suggestions were made during this process, and they were set aside because everyone agreed. I mean, the Council discuss or agreed upon an individual Council or counselors might like it. But since the Council had not talked about it or voted on or made any right public decision that really was not appropriate for a goals document. At the same time, there was a desire, even on Paul's part to some degree that there be specific things that it could actually write that could be measurable quantifiable. Did you do this, did you not do that. We're trying to do both it seems which is okay, I don't think that's right. So it's your job goal and then you have some very specific actions within it. That's kind of the model that we're trying to create. Certainly this version this one week rated here. I like, I imagine you all agreed to some degree work hard enough. Right. Going forward we can try to suggest the Council this is the way we suggest we suggest. This is the way the Council should try to go when it does create goal document. It has broad set tied to specific actions ideally right so with capital projects I mean we I don't think we've mentioned a specific did we a specific Council decision or vote, but it's clearly been right that's everyone would agree that something we've been dealing with so it's tied to something we have done as a group. And then specific items listed where appropriate inside of it. I did that so that if I if necessary I could bring up. Here's performance goals. We look at those. That's what I was looking back and forth on my end. Right. Is it up there. It is now yes, thank you. The first thing I would point out is the title is screwed up, and I, this is just a very picky. And I don't know where I could not find this document. In any public place at the moment for for residents to go read. I think it's on the town manager's web. The one I found was was older, and also the titles right I mean, we never got around to actually getting just making the slight change so it actually reads the town council performance goals for the town manager is I assume what we finally agreed is the title. I think there's confusion on the part of the of the clerk as to and so just a good change so rest of it's fine and the rest of it is exactly the way it's supposed to be. But it is a bit embarrassing and we need to fix it to get the damn title right. But, and also where it should be.  So where is it. Anyway, here it is. We need to fix the title. And I think it's a great template or model for going forward. So I will look on the town manager's page and see what's not was there. Yeah, I think when I last checked it was try to find a word document, whoever has it. Yeah, I can I can reach out to Athena and as to chair and just ask her about that I have no problem and just say you know where is it, and can we fix it. Yeah, I'm working on a word document my revision seven that was clean. I don't, it still had objectives not goals. Yeah. Yeah, there was a change we made during the meetings I recall. Yeah, so Athena should have the final final word document I probably didn't keep track of it in the county. That's right you have 1000 things so I can reach out to her and just make sure that it's fixed. Yeah, or that the document is available to everybody and then making it available. And the town managers of page, we have both is valuation stuff from the previous year and the upcoming goal. It is there. Yes, right. Yeah, we should need to replace it. So it's the right. Was it were there any other changes during the meeting that we're not showing here that anybody can remember. I think this is the only one. I think. Okay. But Athena would have it I mean I'm she's very good. I think this is just anything that just got. It was just confusing. And just didn't get caught. But I think we certainly have some counselors who would love to see a much more detailed, you know, sort of one two three five six seven eight nine 10 kind of document and that's not the kind of document that we as a group agreed upon. And I think this is a good model going forward. But if you look at them, each individually, they're all multi year goals. Ultimately, there's really only one counselor who kept going back to wanting more detail. Right. Very minority position. Yeah, and wanting to have goals stated in much more. And this is what I want to see kinds of ways and that's, you know, ultimately that's my recollection of the discussion. And I think that's where we got we got caught because X wants this and why wants that. And there's just no way you're going to get an agreement and so, you know, you can't have a 13 person goals document. It's very specific because we just won't all agree on it, but we did agree I thought on these six broad goals and I just felt it was in many ways a remarkable accomplishment, given 13 very strong willed individuals who had never actually sat down and in another setting and talked about this but did it in the public. It council meeting. I mean we do it all in public but we did it in a council meeting by and large. I don't think we want to do it again. Not through seven drafts. I'm not sure that I want to do it in a retreat either where the goal is to essentially do the entire process in one retreat. Yeah, maybe it's a bad idea I just I don't know I just throw it out there I mean maybe this is the best this is the only or best way to do it I don't know how other towns do it. Other cities do it. Do they do they have a separate time when they sit down and talk or do they just hash it out the way we did and using this process so we have this process. And it will have the same I assume same general result of multiple drafts. It's hard to believe we would do this and once one council meeting and everyone would go yeah. So it'd be multiple drafts. Maybe that's just the way it has to be done. How do people feel about retreats. So make sense is it you know we already have enough to do. We'll find out when people respond. I haven't even pulled for topics. Because you are planning a retreat. I think Len you did think that was something that makes sense for us to do. Well, I think that zoom retreats are really difficult. I think they're difficult for a couple reasons one is you just can't do it. I mean, it, unlike a council meeting where you have a very clear agenda and you're going through and taking actions. I think it's really hard for us to be much more free flowing so I've been advised by other people who've done retreats that we only do three hours max. The second thing is that I think we could end up with a greater audience attendance than we've had in the past. Because, you know, people can log in and sit at home or not watch frankly.  Speaking of which, we have any audience. We haven't. No, I haven't seen anything. Exciting committee. Anything else we want to look at with this. And then my next question is, what do you want to do with the calendar. Do you want to bring it back to this committee before we take it to the council? Do we want to take it to the council? How do you want to deal with that? I don't think we should take it to the council until we're happy with it. And we've seen it and we've gone through it and we've talked about it and we feel we can defend it against any, you know, so I would prefer it back at least once for us for another review. And since it sounds like you're going to change the timeline from the fiscal year. We're going to remove some of the town manager about self evaluation. I mean, we're going to make some changes to it. Yeah, I showed you. Yeah, I think what we could see, I'd like to see it again, instead of just over a screen share at another meeting Pat can then weigh in. I think it would be easier understood if we actually put it order July to June instead of January to December. Okay. I know you did a lot of changes today and I still would like to get back to my question about distribution and receipt of the data from staff boards and committees. And even self evaluation from the manager and whether we've got a better idea of how much time between them is needed and right now it's just randomly in April randomly in May. We're doing our thing in June, maybe a little bit more talk about how long we want them out there and what order we want them received in. You know, do we want staff before we want residents do we want residents staff and board committees, all at the same time. When do we want Paul self evaluation is compared to all of that. They sort of what's the order. I just realized you're not seeing this. I'm writing myself notes. All right. Thank you. I think it makes sense to us that you felt that this could be tightened the timeline could be.  I forget what our, I had that up and then I think I just closed it. You know, where was our, our timeline for this year. It was, I don't know. Oh, this one. Yeah, so what was it the first copy of somewhere in July, second to six was we had distributed stuff to staff committee chairs and everything. And that wasn't due. One was due two weeks but one was due, like a month later. That was the counselor one. I think Lynn extended the two week deadline I just thought there was a lot of time and then the self evaluation was in July 10. And we didn't have to submit our evaluations until August 7 and it just seemed like there was a lot of time between when we received stuff and when the counselors had to submit things. I guess that's more of the tightening that I felt. And we got Paul's so early compared to when we had to submit that it's almost like if you read it when you got it you had to reread it by the time you were doing stuff. So maybe April the all data collection instruments distributed and received all of that should happen in May. Yeah. And that the managers received that we received the self evaluation on the manager about the same time we receive all of the deadline for everyone else's because we get that deadline and then we can have a week and a half to submit counselor evaluations after we've received everything. So here we're looking at a bit more fine grained timeline, somewhat akin to what I mean very much close to what you gave us Lynn for fiscal year 20. I mean it's in the packet right, you're looking at those dates. How fine grained you want this handy to be. I don't think it needs to be totally fine grained. Like with dates or anything but like a note that says two week response period or something, you know, and, and, and just an order of or all, you know, right, health evaluation will be do same date that the other data is due or something like that. And two weeks later counselor evaluations are due or a week later counselor evaluations are due. I guess one of the questions how long do we need from the time we receive everything to when we as counselors have to submit stuff. Because right now it's like listed as a full month potentially. When was all full month time we received the self evaluation to the time we had to submit stuff this year and I just felt that was a extremely long time. Yeah, it, I, there were some reasons that that happened one was staff vacations but that's okay. So weeks reply. All data completed and do the town council by end of month. And so you would receive Paul self evaluation and hit and all of this data by the end of the month. And during the month of June you would do your first meeting, your second meeting and set your contract. Yeah, I mean it would it would mean the vote on the budgets the same day as the vote on the contract. Yeah. It's how we get to the vote on the budget really usually are not. It's not a long budget process once we get there. No, it isn't. It really isn't so I'm not concerned about that. So I will do all of these changes and figure out how to incorporate this and come up with maybe a memo that draft and we bring it back to the next GOL meeting and we talk about it there. And then we take it to the council. So, so, even though we just did late May for everything we might want to move that to mid May. I mean, if you think everything's due, then the council maybe gets assumed two weeks or even just assume one week to do their evaluation based on all that reading. Then you need to give whoever's compiling probably at least a week to get it compiled if not a week and a half 10 days and that has to be done a good four or five days before the council meeting in early June. Depending on one depending on when the council meetings are so it might be a better for a mid May deadline for the return of stuff, because it might still be a month before you get it to the council in a public form with a draft. That's good. That's good and you noticed I now move this back to the end of April. Yeah. In the last two weeks of April, we provide that data plus the account manager self evaluation by mid May. And then that gives counselors. Two weeks to get their evaluation done. Remember, there's supposed to be a lot of writing to get to that draft. Right. That's tight. I got to tell you that's tight. It is because you're going to have the first week of May. Then everything's do the first week of May and the third week of May is when counselors submit their evaluations. Yes. And that's going to be hard for the finance committee members. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. So we normally have one meeting in July. Our goal is to have like a July meeting right after the fourth right and then try and skip the late July meeting. So if we pop everything two weeks and pop the June goals finalized and the manager evaluation, or maybe you still finalize the goals in June, but you pop the manager evaluation vote into the first meeting in July. You're then potentially allowing the counselors to do their evaluations in early June. It still makes it tough for the five members of the finance committee. Yeah, I think you leave it like this and if you have to go to July because you may what you may end up doing is remember, it's essentially a three week, a three meeting process, because even if you vote on the night, even if you have the meeting where you graduate on the same night, you finalize the memo, you still have to the next meeting to actually do the final vote because you want it public and out there in case there's any public outcry. So if you can do all of this in June, and then I'm sorry. And then in July, you would vote contract. I want to point out, however, you still have this little asterisk here. Yeah, which is why getting all the data from the counselors in May. For that just in 2020 2023 it's probably just going to have to move a month earlier. Right. I think we need to be very careful. We have a big turnover in council the one thing absolutely set is the budget process in the dates it's in the charter and it's in state law. And if you have a new council with a lot of new members coming in who are taking over that budget process. Really need to think about them. I agree Andy. I agree with the resident members. Do we any thoughts on the order in which these things are done in terms of residents, staff, et cetera that matters and more of just everything needs to be done by a certain date. And we're not really concerned about the order. So what we're going to do with this was that, you know, we want to thank and we don't do it now we could bring it back, but the order in which various evaluations are done should be part of this, or maybe it's not so much the order is just the date when they must be completed so that it gets to the counselors in time for them to do what they have to do. These instruments. Actually, these are all four instruments. This is how are you collecting data from staff. How are you doing it from committees, how are you doing it from public and how are you doing it from counselors. You really have to have them all kind of queued up and ready to go. I think we distribute the counselor ones. After everything else though I think that was part of my maybe that's part of where I got, you know I got this email that said fill it out but I had to wait almost a month till I had all the information I could get till I could fill it out and by then I lost a link you've done everything so I think distributing the counselor review should happen later. Distribution counselor evaluation form end of month. Yeah, or at the same time that all the data is distributed to the council they get their link for the evaluation form to the evaluation form goes out at the same time they get all the, all the data. Yeah. So no wait a minute so this is do it the first week of May this is due first week of May. So we want this at the first week of May. Yeah, along with the staff data. Yeah, any data we don't have. I mean, Lynn, you're the one that's looked at when counselors submit it I've gotten the feeling that counselors tend to submit their valuations pretty much on the last day or the day before the last day you told them that needs submitted. Right. Some do it very early and some do it very at the very end. Just. Does anyone tend to do it before all that data is in. Okay. No, what the pattern I've seen is, I'm usually dealing with a couple of stragglers in this case I was one of them this year. I think you might recall that this thing also met a hit about the same time we redid all the election sites. So this can be fine tuned some more to. Yeah, right. And then so at our next meeting we will review this revised document. I think we've made really good progress and lots of good contributions and I think we'll, we'll fix it up and we'll, we'll review it. Do we also want to start the process of reviewing the instruments themselves, or how do we want to deal with that I heard from Lynn, the thought that at some point we need to look at the actual evaluation instruments. I think George this really depends on what else we've got on our agenda. I understand but is it something you think that we have to do we will do at some point doesn't necessarily be done the next meeting, but it is something we will be doing. Okay. It has, it definitely, we definitely need to redo the staff. I think it's, I think it's become a tired instrument. But I think if we, I mean, this year, if we move this even to January. Good, but the reality is that I've got to do a little homework before we do this or somebody does because I think there's better staff instruments out there. And I think we need to figure out how to give the public more of a way to interact with the goals. So that they, you know, maybe they rate the goals or something like that. I just think we get more like response if we did that. And frankly not unlike the way counselors would be asked to rate rate on goals. So they could do a purely a rating or they could do comments as well. And I just want all I can say is before we're going to do this. If I'm going to do it I need a little lead time to do a little bit of research on other staff instruments and stuff like that. Fair enough. No, I understand. By the way, maybe able to be done with MMA. Oh, you know what, I just realized there is another piece here. And right in here. We didn't do this this year, but we have to do it at some point down the road. And it is a salary comparison salary. I just needed to put it year a year ago as you might recall, we actually looked at the salaries that other towns were paying. That was because we were also in a contract year this year I didn't do that additional research first of all Evelyn did it for me. And this year she was leaving at the time we were doing all this. Which by the way was another reason we had their little hiccups here and there. We got it done gang. Now I'm wondering what I mean this we can talk about this outside of the meeting Lynn but in terms of getting help from MMA or getting help from. What is there's some Institute I ran into them at the convention back in the day when I actually met people. And I think that that actually provides these services I can dig it up in my file somewhere but might be something I could try also look into just, you know, telling them what we're doing and if they have any materials we can look at our suggestions, but MMA. I'm sure has references for other cities and towns. The McCormick Institute. Yeah, they're there at UMass Boston. They do local government work they actually work through the Charter Commission. Right, exactly. That's what I'm trying to think of. Is it worth reaching out to them do you think I mean I'd be happy to do that if I had sense of. Let me do it because otherwise they'll charge you. Okay. Actually, they're just on my account. They've been long time colleagues. My counselor credit card. Yeah, right. They've been, you know, they've been long time colleagues. But unless you are saying you want to start on that stuff now. I wasn't going to start working on that. I'm not trying to, yeah, I just want to make sure it is something we're going to do and we will do it in the future but not. Yeah. Okay, and I'd be happy if there's stuff that you need someone to read through and digest. I'd be happy to summarize. I'd be happy to do that work so if you get something from the Institute or from whatever. And you know you'd like someone just to go through it and summarize it or whatever. Yep. You can call on me for that I can help. Yeah. Okay. I'm sharing this. Okay. And do you want to go back to the agenda. I do unless there's it's we don't have much here. The update for bylaws for future consideration I just put on there. And there's, there's a something in your packet. Basically, is there anything anybody needs to report on and if the answer is no, we'll just move on. I have some things that I've marked in red for me to do. But me hasn't done it yet so. So we were each assigned to look at a bylaw or a group of bylaws. And I mean, I looked at my group but I guess I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. I don't know what I did on mine and no one's seen it because we've we put it on but no one we don't talk about it.  Not even finding my, but I guess what I was looking at is. Are we just supposed to be reporting on whether we think it's something we should do now or later or go to a town attorney for review or a different committee review. Or are we actually supposed to be doing some of the modifications to prevent to present to the GL. I think one had some direction with it, but it wasn't very detailed. It was something Pat and I worked on and Pat, particularly, she referred back to the bylaw review committee notes that she had. And so I think, first of all, Pat's integral to this discussion. What my notes say is the purpose of initial individual review is to suggest to the committee what next likely steps are, and then we will go from there so it's to look at it Mandy and think okay what would be the next step would be. And so I think what I'm asking everybody to do is look at their individual. So in the case of mine. In the document I put on the on our SharePoint and on the website. I'm supposed to take some of the HR director. I'm supposed to locate a trust document and consult with the town manager. I'm supposed to run something by the town attorney. So those are three things that I am supposed to do. And in the document that I gave you that tells you what I'm supposed to do, but I haven't done it. And then what I'm hoping that the rest you can do over the next whatever is look at your individual assignments individual bylaws and say well the thing that next step would be X.  Next step would be for us to go out and actually do it. So I could actually do some of these things. I just wanted to make sure we weren't supposed to be like sending it off to the committees that it was really just looking for what those next steps are and noting them. Okay, that would be great it would be nice if people could, you know, in their free time. Look at it and just suggest what they think the next step would be and then I would put that in this document. And we would look and then you could look at it and say okay. That's what I agreed to do we all see what you agree to do. And then we just need to say okay go ahead and do it. In case the three things I'm supposed to do, you probably would all say okay, go ahead George do it. So we find the most recent table because it gave assignments and had some set of notes. What I have for you is just, you know, actually I picked up a few extra ones to deny and just realized. Yes you did. It's all right. So I've got some homework to do. So Lynn you have 3.35 and 3.23 and, you know, blah, blah, and it's just a matter of looking at it and thinking okay. What would you know what would be the next logical step. It's really all that that message all the other document I have it just I believe it was in a packet at some point listed the so Lynn has 3.35 and 3.23. He has 3.31 3.46 3.49. And all that document is is, you know, look at it at some point and suggest to us what you think the next likely step would be. And then you tell me what that is I'll put it in the the larger document in red, and then I will make that available to everybody so we all know where we stand. I'll come back to you. Well, I think, or you can even I think it's a word document you could probably just go in and enter in red. What you want to do.  It's in the packet should be. It's under table of bylaws identified for future consideration with updates. And if, if you, I know if you want to open it is maybe not worth the trouble but I just found it. If you want to open it. There's a section called notes, and it just lists what up to now I guess it's just me. I don't know. I had some for mine I didn't know what I was just keeping it forward in my own thing to present at a meeting you want us to actually put it into that document. It'd be nice to if you do it then I know you've looked at it. Because I could send you mine that has all my stuff in red, and then you could I just try and figure out what I'm supposed to do with it. Why don't you just send it to me and enter it and that keeps it simple. But for the rest of you if you have a moment. I know it's not high priority but we kind of been sitting on it. Just send me what you think is what you'd like entered in this larger document. And I will enter it. And then at a next meeting or the subsequent meeting. We'll be able to you and we can then say okay we've all agreed that these are the steps are going to take. Now everybody has to go off and start doing some of this stuff. Okay, and then you send me yours and if any of you, Andy or Lynn get a chance with yours look at it and think okay the next step would be X. And if there's no obvious next step then that's, that's fine. It's just, I have no say I don't know. The only thing I would suggest by the way is that if we're going to play with the stock each of us is going to play with this document. And then we're going to try and consolidate we should use a different color than red so we don't confuse it. What I'm suggesting is what I suggested to Mandy is just send it to me send whatever it is you think you should do or what your suggestion is just send it to me in an email, and I will enter it into this document so I will make all the changes in this document. So just send me your thoughts. And eventually I'll remind you if you forget but just send it to me rather than everybody get into it. Okay. I've looked at the minutes, I made one very very small script or change spelling change that was it. If you have a chance to look at them are you willing to accept them by consensus. Do you want to wait till I'm it's really up to you, Lynn. Okay, Andy. When did you send them. I did. I put that I put them. I think they got it. September 30. I think it's later than the initial packet I'm sorry so we can wait till next time. But last last two days I guess is when I got in. Don't want to wait we can wait. It's alright. I'd rather have you look at them than not. I thought they were fine. But let's wait there. Okay, so I will hold off. And they're in the packet now. And I'm going to get a chance to look at them. There are no items not anticipated. There's no public present. I don't believe. No, there isn't. Future agenda items next November 4 next meeting. Okay. So the human rights declaration that Lynn is forwarded to us. I've actually tried to channel my inner Mandy and I actually took it and tried to put it into the proper form with this, the semicolons and the ands. But the document, I think does have a couple of places where it could use some work. And I don't, I didn't feel comfortable making the changes myself. And, but that's on the agenda for next time. It'll be in your packet. And I think I'd urge you to look at it if you have a chance. We certainly can do it. It will do it in real time. But I think there's some issues with the wording and so on. It could be clear. It could be. Fixed. We've done it many times, but I was not happy with some of the things I saw. So. So I also mentioned that there will maybe a small business Saturday resolution coming. Okay. All right. If that's coming. I think last year when we passed it, we wanted more data about local matters, not just national matters. Yeah, George, I think we, we went to like, where we wanted, you tried to get stuff from the bid or something. Right. It was a very generic national resolution last year. Yeah. To be honest, I've basically taken it to the bid and the chamber and said, if you want this. Please give us a resolution. Okay. And I otherwise. Unless somebody else feels strongly. I think it's only if they wanted that we should worry about it. And my sense, I'll work with them, but tell them we want local data. I could reach out as well if you want. It's up to you. If that takes something. I've talked to them every Friday anyway. So onto the prior one, since I'm the sponsor, George, do you want me to just do some changes to the. The resolution. Human rights. The human rights one. To put a new one. I mean, I. No, you're perfectly free to make any changes you wish. You're the sponsor. I don't make problem with that. I mean, some of these blocks are like multiple senses. They're just, it's, you know, yeah, no, I hadn't gotten to fixing it up for you. So if you can just. Send me what you fixed. Right. And then you go. And I'll, I'll go, I'll go at it from there. Fine. Good. Article 14 by law will come to us. So that you should see it next time, even though the hearing won't have happened yet. Because we're on a tight deadline. The hearing is November 4th in the evening. So I'll be able to update you on that. So I'll be able to update you on that. So I'll be able to update you on that. So I'll be able to update you on that. So both. Sierra CRC is going to talk about it on the 28th. So I'll be able to update you. Obviously we won't vote on the 27th. Sorry, the 27th. We're not going to be voting on the 27th. Because we have to hold the hearing before we vote on it, but I'll be able to update you next week as to whether there's anything. CRC is looking at changing the planning board is initially discussing the next meeting. So I'll, I'll, I'll touch base with Jack, the chair, and we should know whether there's any additional changes coming beyond what was presented on Monday's council meeting, at least anticipated. And then I think we need to just consider it in GOL. Unfortunately, before the hearings have happened just because of the timing. Right. In terms of getting it passed. And that is our next meeting. Yeah. Yeah. And whatever form it's in. Yeah. When is the next meeting is the 20, the November. Of GOL. Yeah. GOL meets on the fourth. Right. Okay. I got it right then. Yeah. Right. I do a put on our agendas. The next meeting dates. Yeah, it made one yet, but anyway, so November 4th, then next time and then for 18. So. Facial recognition. I sent that off to the, to, to. It's possible that could come back to us before then. Anything else that people, you had this small business. That may show up. Resolution. Local business. Anything else. Okay. And we're not going to, and we're obviously we're going to continue our discussion of the timeline. So Lynn will get us a revised version of that. So continue timeline. And we'll not, if for the moment, do anything else related to the. The review process, the instruments and so on. We'll leave that for a future date. And if people have a chance to look at their future considerations, just send it to me. And I'll put it into the larger document. I have nothing else. Anyone. And I want to discuss the world series or anything like that. I mean, any other issues that you want to. Go raise. Let's hear for the. We're split. You know, how much Mookie bets makes. He's, he had a salary for $325 million. Is that over 12 years or is it? It's not one year, but still three. He's guaranteed 300 and whether he plays another day of baseball.  He actually kind of started looking like the real Mookie bets last night. Yes. Yeah. The real Mookie is going to be there. I'm sure. But still 300. I don't know. That's all I have to talk about. You're going to adjourn. I'm going to adjourn. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Bye. See you later.