Karibu Sana, this is Hashtag Y in the morning. You're hanging out with me, Brian Sankwar, and in just a bit, I want you to interact with us on social media and let us know where you're watching us from. And also, what are some of your reactions to us, the question you've asked on our social media platform, especially in terms of mattress education? And my previous co-presenter was actually having an incredible discussion about that. What next after KCSE? And this is in regards to the results that were released last year. I definitely would like to see and hear your feedback on that as well. And we will sample it towards the tail end. But right up, it's all matters entrepreneurship. But before we get into it and before I introduce our powerful guests that we have in the studio, we're going to talk about actually how to nurture a successful business.  And I have a very interesting and also powerful guest in the studio with us. And this is also touches on matters SMEs and much more. And just an interesting update on this is on MasterCAD on SME confidence. It talks about a sharp increase, Kenya's being optimism. And this again includes a number around 66% of them are confident about the next 12 months compared to 45% of the previous year. And this again is also anticipated with the future growth that will be driven by the investments. But he says 66% of SMEs across Kenya are confident about business growth. 97% believe that omnichannel payments present the biggest opportunity for them followed by digitizing their businesses. And an estimation up to 96%. And this is just incredible. Also companies are also seeking to recover. There's those that have not like fully recovered from the pandemic. And also they're on their way to return to the growth phase. Our research shows that up to 73% of SMEs in Kenya are concerned about the recent rise in cost of doing business, especially in the capital sector. That includes an estimation of 44% cost of living, right? It touches on matters the economy is the economy we are in right now. Socially as we kick starting 2024 really favorable. I'd also like to hear from you and our guest who is live with us in the studio. Also touch on that and much more being joined live by Rosemary Kirimushi is the co-founder and CEO of Rock Mix International. Good morning, Rosemary. Good morning, Zaka. Great to meet you and Karim Boussana. Happy New Year. But I was having an argument with a friend and she was like, Rukeshafika with two January stop telling people happy New Year. No, no, no, no, the year is still new. We must wish each other happiness. And I was like, yeah, he ended up adding much because it's still a fresh new year. It's a new year. It's a new year. We are optimistic. New year comes with new things, new beginnings. Yes. So we are very optimistic. Please. And the learning can be a happy new year. And happy new year to you once again. Happy new year to you. Thank you. Now, let's get into your journey. You've really worked an interesting journey of how you started your business. A business that has been there for over 10 years and two more. This is a decade and another in two. In another three years. And it's an interesting company. Yes. Manufacturing. Manufacturing company. Yes. Talk to us how you started it and where was the vision born? Okay. So growing up, I grew up in a town called Nanuki. My mother was a teacher and a household that never had money. Everybody growing up, money was never enough. So at some point when I finished high school, I thought I need to crack this money business. We need to figure out how to make money. And so I went on a journey on reading and I read very many books. Any book that spoke anything to do with money I read. And I figured entrepreneurship was the way. So at heart, I became an entrepreneur. I wasn't sure what I was going to do. But then I knew at heart I was going to become an entrepreneur. I was going to build a business. I was going to build a big, big business. So after that, I finished high school. I came to University of Nairobi. I did a big home, specialized in marketing, and had a few opportunities here and there. So I've worked in research. I've worked in tourism and travel. I've also worked in the construction industry where I saw the opportunity for paint. So when the opportunity came, I went into it with both hands and started from scratch, like from zero. We started to build something.  Also another paint. Is it paint manufacturing or a paint distributor? They were paint distributors. So you volunteered or you were also on payroll? No, no, no, I was working. I was working on payroll. Immediately you got out of UN? Yes. Immediately I got out of UN. I did a few industries here and there. Then I was now a research assistant for this distributorship company as a business development manager. But then... That's a big sport. It was a big position back then. And so... Which year? This was in... We're in 2023? 2024. We're in 2024, yes. So this was about 2012. Yeah, 2012, 2013, sure. Yeah, 2012, end of 2011, because I worked there for about a year. I guess. And I had tried many other ventures. I had tried a few businesses here and there. But then this gave me an opportunity to build something. I was looking for something to build. So I thought paint looked interesting. There was a new product that came into the market back then in the paint industry. The textured external finish known as wall master. Oh, but for someone who doesn't understand that... What does that mean? That means there's a textured product. Your exterior, these days, if you look at most buildings, they are rough. You see, they're rough exterior, yes. It was coming into the market then. It was really new. It was really new. So I sort of an opportunity back then. So we set up, I decided to set up this organization and just start. One customer at a time. So this is towards now the end of 2012. This was towards the end of 2012, yes, into 2013. And how was the journey at that time? What were some of the circumstances that also inspired you or even broke you? And also, actually, one of the biggest key factors is capital when you're starting a business. So did you have savings? Did you borrow a loan? And interesting enough in the article about you is that you advised all business owners in the world and whoever has a dream of owning a business, don't rely on bank loans or any sort of loan. So how was yours back then? So starting back then, during my previous employment, I had some savings in the circle. So I was a circle ground, yes. So I had some savings in the circle. So I had some money to start the business, which basically meant my rent and the first machines to manufacture. But then I was clear that I was going to make money from my customers. So my biggest challenge. You see, if you're running a business and you don't have a customer, you're not in business. You're not in business. If you don't have a buyer who can buy your product, you're not in business at all. That's one of the tip number one. So you have to get your customer first. You have to get your customer. And so when we were starting, I would look for the customer and come to you. You see, as long as a building is being built, I know you will need paint at some point. So I would walk to you and ask for the business. And so for the customers who believed in me back in the day, they would give me an opportunity to, for example, do a sample. So I would sample for them the product. And they would see it. They would like it. We'd do a quotation. Then I'd ask for a deposit. Remember, we were a startup. So I'd ask for a deposit. They would give me a small deposit. We would deliver the product, do the job, and onto the next customer. And onto the next customer and the next customer and the next customer. And that's how it picked up. And that's how it picked up. So all over the city, looking for customers. And by the way, speaking of looking, how are you looking? Were you like approaching individually in churches, in Yosaku? Did you have like a kachama? Definitely, I took out the Kosakoko kachama. I was in a kachama. I know, right? The easiest way to get a customer is to walk to a building, a construction site. I don't need to know you at all. As long as it's a site going on that is being built, I would walk in, ask for the foreman, ask for the architect, ask for the owner, and then pitch my product. So you're doing peaches? So I would pitch, we'd do a sample, and then we'd do a really good job. So the beauty about doing a good job, meant referrals. So if I paint your building and do it really well, then all your friends are my clients. And then you see, paint is not hidden. Everyone can see. If we do a good job, it's a good job. If we do a bad job, it's our job. It's evident, yes. The evidence is... The client can just see it. The client can see. Yes, and people have very many opinions, especially when you're painting. People who are yellow, like they're very opinionated. Especially Kenyans. It's a Kenyan thing. It's a Kenyan thing. And I think that's also the beauty of having a business that's strategic, like this is my target customer, and I'm aware that I can go beyond this, or below this, or above this. That's interesting. Now, speaking of money in a circle. Speaking of money from the circle, so I got money from the circle, and so I started doing business. So one of the biggest challenges we had back then was raw materials. And because you need the raw material to produce before you can sell, I needed capital. And that's when I went to one of the local banks. And they asked me for a title, and I thought, where? These are business titles? Yes, I titled it for land. You need land. For security. Yes, for security. Oh my goodness. Back then, right now, business, whether the environment for doing business right now is way better than back in the day. Okay. Yes. I have a lot on the economy. A lot on the economy, but at least these days banks can give you unsecured facilities. Like such facilities now exist. Yeah. Back in 2012, there was nothing like unsecured facility. For who? If you don't have a pay slip. Yeah. It didn't matter how good you were in terms of money management. Right. Yes. And you managed to pull through that? So I managed to pull through that. It was very, very hard. But in 20, I think 15 or 16 roundabout there, I was auctioned. Wow. Please tell us.  For those that have been through it, it's a lot of trauma. You're scared, it's uncertain.  So what happened around that? So when I was being auctioned, I, money management, just cash flow management. I wasn't too good at it. I was still young and I still wanted to have a good life and build a business and have fun and build a business. So I wasn't too good in terms of cash flow. Okay. And so, yeah, it caught up with me. My decisions caught up with me and I was auctioned. But this is what I see. For business people, being auctioned is a rite of passage. Yeah, it's part of the experience in the journey. It's a rite of passage because after that, then you move away from the, what you imagine business is, to doing real business. That delusion, man, to like, it's a good bubble, everything is gonna flow right. And then all of a sudden, it busts your bubble. Yes, you drive up four by four and live in the postious part of town and... Oh my goodness. That bubble is bust. It's just a fantasy. It's bust. And you're allowed to be sad for a few days. Then you wake up. Depression and kicking one on. You wake up, you dust yourself, and you start again. This time, you build with fundamentals. And strategy. And strategy. So speaking of strategy, how did you manage to climb up? Because I can only imagine, here you're experiencing being auctioned. And also, maybe if you can also point out, maybe what are some of the properties that were taken away from you? And how long did you take in that season before you started building up again? One of the things that was taken away from me that was very critical was my car. So my car went. Now, doing sales for paint in Nairobi without a car, you've been grounded, literally. Yes, you've been grounded. You cannot sell. Neither can you deliver. Neither can you buy. Because now, all this now means you have to hire. And it becomes very, very expensive. Yes. So my office, what I had in my office furniture, they were taken, my computers, what, what, what not, in my car. And how many people were you working with at that time? At that time, I think I had two employees. We were very small. Not as big now. Not as big as we are right now. We were small. So I had two employees. One of them left. The other one stuck with me. Bad times. They say hard times. Show you who the real ones are. They show you who the real people are. And in business, it's like a real deal now. So from there, I became, my team and I became extremely disciplined, yes, in terms of cash flow management. And we've grown from retained earnings. So you make money and that profit is what you pull back into the business.  The challenge we're having right now is we are looking to scale. And so although now the business is completely stable, it can hold itself, we are looking to scale. We are looking to expand into new markets. And so that's where we're at at this point of the journey. And that's an interesting lesson as well to any business owner. And for you, you know, being there for 10 years and now two more on top, it means you're an expert in that industry as well. And I can't wait for you to be featured on Forbes. I know that's also part of your dream. But let's get back to cash flow. It's a very key component for any entrepreneur journey. And I leave a lot of mentioned stories, SMEs, small, medium enterprises, how to on on the show, we come up, a kuzanyanya, kuzantumbagi, quotient, what not. Managing your cash flow is really a key important skill. Which I feel like maybe a lot of people do not understand that. Maybe sometimes, maybe for a person who started a journey of entrepreneurship, you learn on the job, it's a job you learn on the job. But then I feel like this lesson's about money. It should be even introduced to younger kids in school. Like as early as when I say mama, mama, the first thing is you have to teach children on how to manage money. Cash flow is king. Cash flow is king. And the thing about business is you have to understand. Yes. Money from the business does not belong to you. It's not your money. It's not your money. You have to separate. You have to separate. This is money for the business. And pay yourself a salary. Get the discipline of paying yourself. So sometimes it means you can get caught up in investment and don't even reward yourself in the business. Yes, if you get caught up in it. And the thing is you have to sacrifice. By the time you're in business 10 years, you have to have a lot of sacrifices.  You have to be clear. By the way, you broke. The business is rich, yes. But you as an entrepreneur, you don't have any money. So please don't buy property.  You've tied up your cash flow. So what happened during COVID is we saw serious price fluctuation. Price fluctuation and raw material shortage. So what would happen is the quality of raw material that we like to use was not as easily available. And then price fluctuation and then the dollar went up and then the war in Russia. Right now, actually, I'm being told there's going to be another challenge because there are militants attacking cargo ships on the Red Sea. These ships are headed to Kenya, Africa? Yes, coming to Africa. I was given this information yesterday. So we are being told by our suppliers, what can you lock up? Like this is the stock we have, what can you pick up? So such challenges, if you haven't managed your cash flow well, then you're caught flat-footed. And I remember also when the president even mentioned that this war has massively affected entrepreneurs. A lot of people were like, how? But this is Kenya. But now I see the reason why. Yes, because we are net importers. We import almost everything. So because we import, anytime there's the international markets, the world now has become a single market. So if something goes, if there's war, that means there's shortage, say in China or shortage, say where we bring our stuff from Europe. Then that means the prices have gone up. So if the price of my raw material goes up, the price of my paint goes up, the cost of construction goes up, so you who's paying rent, your rent has gone up. Yes, so the cost of living is not an arbitrary thing. You can follow it up. If you're interested in learning, you can follow it up. Or this is why it went up, this is why it went up. And this is why now you're being affected. You are the person who's paying rent. Or you are the person who is building your own home. Your initial costs, if you service your final cost have is fluctuating because of international, because of factors that are really beyond your control. Yeah, and it's really incredible you have this awareness because I can only margin now to the normal manaichi who is not aware of such an experience at your heart. You know, you're sitting in the deeper end where you're able to oversee and view all this. As it's happening, as the statistics are coming, you're even noting and even experiencing it as well, which is really an excellent lesson for everyone or anyone who's watching right now. Yes, so as an entrepreneur, you really have to understand your industry. And you also have to understand the macroeconomics and also the microeconomics. You have to understand interest rates have gone up because the base rate at Central Bank went up. So interest rates have gone up. I was actually saying an update about a shielding up. I think I'll point it out later. They updated it this morning. I think it was on business daily. About a shielding, has it dropped or is it going up? No, it's gone up. It's gone up, right? I think we're at 157 now. Yes, I saw it early on in the morning. Wow, meaning that things are about to also get a little bit mucky. Things are going to get mucky. However, when you're an entrepreneur, you have to figure it out.  You also have to remain competitive. Yeah, sure, absolutely. You have to remain competitive, watch your margins and see how you can cushion your customer. The other thing that we've done also is we've moved into new markets. So we've recently just moved into Uganda. Right, which is like an extension. And that's growth. Now that's growth for us. So what I was telling you before we started was last year when everyone was complaining, we actually grew. Right. We actually grew. And you see, as much as people talk about the economy and the naysayers like I would like to call them, we have to keep going on because this country belongs to us. This country belongs to us. The businesses are ours. We have to keep going. We have to keep going. So that means maybe we work a little harder, change strategy, look at other markets. But we have to keep innovating. We have to keep innovating. It's really incredible because you know, you're speaking with our mindset of an expert. You know, I can only imagine for a person like you said and they say it was just an ask a tour, economic or up and they say, you know, the president, the president, but it's really incredible. Now, still on that update about the shilling, I've actually found it. It says last month, the central bank of Kenya surprised the market as it unexpectedly raised interest rates by 200 basis points. That is 2%. Lifting the central bank rate to 12.5% from 10.5%. And in its decision, the CBK Monetary Policy Committee noted that the exchange rate depreciation had continued to exert pressure on domestic prices. Yes, so that means domestic borrowing is going to become expensive. Yeah, for internally here, for us. For internally here, for business people, you see now we've grown, so now the banks give us money. Now when you grow, you don't have a problem raising money. So now two things, either you renegotiate your facility and sit with your banker and say, it was going to pay these loans in three years, can I pay it in three and a half years? So it doesn't quite affect you. And also when you make some money, you can push some of it into repaying of the facility to just manage that cost. And also you watch out, you watch out on some of the things that you wanted to do in terms of expansion. If you want to go maybe into capital, you want to build, like now we want to build our own warehouse and stuff like that. Is it worth building now or do we wait a little bit? The other option would be also to bring in international investors. So we are also raising money from international investors. We are hoping that this is the year that's, because there's international investors who are looking to invest here. And how are you reaching out to them, brother? Because I believe you must have some sort of a resume because I can't just start a mid-tomba business right now and expect to reach out to you. You need track record, you need track record, right? You need to show this is where we started and this is where we are. And for what period? And for what period? They look at maybe three or four years of your doing business. They look at your growth level, they look at the impact you're having in the society in terms of the number of jobs you're creating. Right. Those are some of the things they look at. Right. But they're also very interested because you see the government is doing affordable housing. You know Naim, Django is coming up. Yes. It's a huge opportunity. But how do you feel about it? Now that you've said it's a huge opportunity because it has received a lot of opposition. It has received a lot of opposition. Because of the housing levy tax? Because of the housing levy tax. But you see the shortage of houses in Kenya is really high and we have to house our people. We really do have to house our people. So we are excited. There are some that are already up and I'm copying. There's one in Riru. There's one in Riru coming up. It should be completing anytime soon.  The president launched it I think last year, the beginning of last year at some point. So we're really looking forward to it. Our only challenge is that paint is the last thing that they develop. Like the final product. It's the final product. So we have to wait but also prepare because affordable housing is here with us. So a lot of opportunity for local manufacturers. A lot of opportunity for our young people. So because they're going to get jobs. And also opportunity for people who are employed to get houses. Yeah. Yes. I know at this point it might not look like it's a good thing but they'll thank him maybe after five years. So maybe after he has left presidency. Because the amount of opposition that that project has received is really insurmountable. But infrastructure development is always a good thing. Do you remember Thika Road? When Kibaki was building Thika Road and he took down there was a Nakumat. There was the Nakumat that went down. And guys were up in arms. But today look at Thika Road. It opened up that highway completely. So when the infrastructure is going on, people might not appreciate it. But believe you me for a country like ours that is developing infrastructure is key. We must house our people. We must feed our people. We must close our people. Once we've done the basics, then we can move to other things like entertainment. Things like that. But housing is key. It's very key. Food is key. Especially in urban areas. Especially even in rural areas. You know when it's raining you can't be outside. You must be under shelter. Yes. Form stability for the home. Yes. That's incredible. Now also still on the ecosystem. That is the climate of where you operate. Maybe what are some of the conducive factors that have actually propelled you in terms of now. Because I believe politics, the state of politics of a country has a massive effect on the nature of operations of any business. In terms of also seeing the products of profit. Also networking in between and expansion. So maybe in Kenya right now, from your experience and where you sit, what are some of the favorable conditions that maybe people are blind to, but you're able to see. But we're able to see. One of them is we have an association called the Kenya Association of Manufacturers. I'm sure you've heard about it. So that as an association in the National Chamber of Commerce, they help business people lobby. You're an umbrella organization. I'm a member of the Kenya Association of Manufacturers which is an umbrella organization that helps local manufacturers lobby. But also, a business environment, as much as the economy is a bit difficult right now, the business environment is not as bad as we want to think. Really? If you wake up tomorrow and look for a customer to sell anything, it will be bought. It will be bought. It's just that we really have to be a bit more positive. And that's why it's beautiful when it's a new year. That's why we have to enjoy the new year. We are like week two. We are week two. We have to look at the year with as much positivity that we can bring to the table. Because there's a lot of investment coming into the country, foreign direct investment coming into the country. And all these people are coming into the infrastructure industry. So there's a lot of buildings coming up. And there are lots and lots of opportunities. If you open your eyes, opportunities are endless. Right. Yes. So I don't know, last year's election, did you have a smooth run? Or during the election? Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. You see? Actually, it's last year but one, you know? Last year but one. So two main things that have happened during COVID and also during elections. What happens is for many Kenyans, because of the uncertainty, they build more. You see, if you are thinking of building your own home and you're not sure when, when there's uncertain times, then you quicken the process. Yes, so you quicken the process. So as much as there are not as many opportunities, say in the luxury end of the product, for a product like paint, there's an opportunity. There's an opportunity. So we haven't seen, we were really not affected as much. Not as much. Yes. And if you look at the major businesses, they were really not affected. Okay. No, they were not. Right. So as Kenyans, we have to become real entrepreneurs. We have to build. Because you see when you're building something, even though something comes for say one or two, three months, it might affect you and your business might slow down. However, you're building, you've been building for the last 12 years.  So we are building. As long as you're building, you have fundamentals that keep you going, as opposed to if you're trading. Trading, you know, is buying and selling. So you buy and sell, you buy and sell. But if you're not building anything, then it becomes a huge challenge when it's a downfall. Say an election or COVID or there's war. So I encourage entrepreneurs to build businesses that can stand the chest of time. Right. Maybe interesting. Are there also maybe obstacles you've met? Because 10, 12 years in total is really a huge amount of time. Maybe what are some of the obstacles you've had to overcome in that industry? Before you tell us about your competitors. And at some point we had mentioned the Mutokinju, which is like, I saw recently, they were highlighted in the business something. They won an award as well. Mutokinju is one of these, is cementing itself as a distributor, as a main distributor for paint. Right. Yeah, so. At large in Kenya. At large in Kenya. Okay. I don't know whether they've gone elsewhere. I don't know. But our competitors really are not Mutokinju. We compete with the manufacturers. We compete with crown paints, and basketball paints, and plus corn. So that's what we call SIDA competitors. Right. So when you look in this room, are you able to tell which company might have done this painting? No, you can't tell. Okay. Right. But you see, so the market is huge. Right. There is always a niche market for you. And you see for us what we've done is we are taking the headache off the customer. Right. How do we take headache off? When you think of painting, you're thinking of looking for a fundy. The fundy comes, gives you a quote, then you have to go to the hardware, buy paint, then come it's painted. You don't like it, you don't like the color. So what do we do as rock mix? If you call on us, we will send a team that will come to you. Okay. They'll give you a quote, we're able to give you a quote. We're even able to sample the colors because you're not sure, say for example you're looking at, say maybe a brown, you're not sure of the brown that you want. Right. So we'll give you several options. Right. Like a shed. Like a shed card. And it's actually on the wall. So you can see exactly how your wall will look like when you're done painting. And then we come in, we have our own interim in-house team of painters, plus our paint. And then also we give you a warranty. Did they tell you that? No. You haven't mentioned. Wow, that's incredible because even buying a phone at a shop, there's phones that don't even offer a warranty. There are phones that don't offer a warranty. Right? Neville, peace to see you.   You see external because we are in the equator under the tropical sun. They spent you painted in two weeks, you're not sure that color is what you wanted. So we give warranty of up to 10 years. And that is even including people like if you had a client from TZ or Uganda. We give warranties across. We are very, very confident in our product. Okay. So that's how we beat the big brands. Okay, really interesting. I'm told we have five minutes and then we go. Time really flies so fast. Maybe so also what are some of the lessons and then maybe for someone who's watching right now and they want to get into this journey of building this incredible business idea. Maybe they have a vision, but of course the basics of starting a business first of all have a business plan. And you've literally shown us your journey and whatnot. You need a customer. You need a customer. By the way you had mentioned that you need a customer first. Please explain it to them. You need your camera. This is my camera. So when you're starting a business one of the most important things is a customer who will pay you for your product or service. Once you have that customer the second thing is to expand the customer base. So multiply the number of customers that you have and also retain the customer that you have. That means you have to give a product that is excellent quality or a service that is of good quality so that you retain your customer. Once you have your customer the fundamentals of running a business are the same. You have to manage your cash flows. You have to manage your systems and then growth and consistency. I can't emphasize that enough. You have to be consistent. You have to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Like getting used to routine is really a difficult thing. It's difficult but it's very important because what I say is you pay time. Once you pay time, success is inevitable. When we were in the midst of building this business it was very, very difficult. Like there are days I used to wonder, hey, but now if you called me I can come. I'll come and sit here. I'm having an interview with you. The factory is running. Sales people are selling. Paint is being painted. Like there's a whole operation happening behind me but it's taken doing the same thing over and over and over again.  And maybe the legalities, I believe you've been through this a lot and now with the nature of our political system. Are there maybe at some point where things were so uncertain, especially now for, because yours is a registered business, right? Yes, we are registered. So how did you get a part of the documentation which is a very key part as well for any entrepreneur, especially SIE? Yes, yes, yes. How did you go through that process? So documentation, what you need in terms of documentation is registration. So what used to happen back then, registration of companies even right now is not as difficult.  But also now for people like us, we are registered with carers, so we pay our taxes. We are registered with cabs. We have our, what's that called? The diamond mark of quality. But by the time you get, start. Let's not talk about a lot of, when you're starting, really the documentation will catch up. Right. Start and then let the documentation catch up. Catch up. Catch up on things like NSSF, NHIF, all these people.  Right. But when you're starting, my advice would be, just start the business and then let the documentation catch on. By the end of your first year in business, you will have put a documentation together. Because sometimes they, I call it analysis paralysis. So your fear of starting, you're so afraid.  That's a mystic, because maybe you've heard of stories. Because people hear, oh, I started this business and then something happened. I can't start such a similar one. So for small businesses in this country, like if you're operating below five million, there are things you're not required to pay. Or there are documents that you're not required to have. Because you're still considered small. At the point you hit five million annual turnover, then now you need to have your documentation in order. But don't have analysis paralysis. Start the business. And as you start, because it's not like every day you'll go look for the customer, one day look for a day off and put a documentation together. Right. Yes. I have two questions, just very fast. Hopefully they won't copy off. Loans, servicing debt, which is also a very key part in any business. There's those business that solely depend on borrowing from a financial institution to another, maybe a bank. In an article that was written about you, advice entrepreneurs to never rely on borrowed money from banks. Why is that? When you're starting, do not rely on loans because nobody will give you. Okay. When you're starting the business, don't rely on loans because nobody will give you. And those who give you, the interest rate will be very high because you're considered high risk. Right. So raise your money from customers. But it's a level where you reach, then I, when the banks will lend to you. Completely unsecured. Yes. Because then you have something physical to show. Yes, then you have something physical to show and you have track record.  Consistently for maybe 12 months where all your money is going in, all your money is going out. Then you can, for actually, for Kenya commercial bank, let me talk about Kenya commercial bank for a minute. I don't, I'm not endorsing them. I know these days are endorsements. But they have a female-led enterprise fund that is unsecured. Actually, it's an advert on another main institution. It's legit, yes. They give you unsecured facility, especially for women in business. If you've banked with them for a certain period of time, and they can see, because it's their statement, they can see how you've been banking with them and you need a certain amount of money, they're able to give it to you completely unsecured. I wish this information was even reachable to the people in the interior to know about female-led, you know, what not, because this is like an empowerment forum that actually nudges women into business. Lastly, before you tell us what people can find you and access you, maybe what is one lesson that you've learnt in business for 12 good years that you can pass it on now that it's just a new year? And also, are you friends with Anetwange Madame Keroche from Keroche Breweries? But I really admire her. I admire her. I think she's a woman of steel. I really admire her. You've met her? No, I haven't met her. I've not had the privilege of meeting her, but I'm hoping that one day I'll meet her. Yes, I think she's an amazing woman. There's Madame Keroche, and there's also someone else. There's also another lady, the Decra Roofing Lady who has set up a factory in Georgia. I've also not met her, but... She's one of the biggest. They're some of the biggest. Yes, women doing business, doing big things in this country. I think she'll feature on the strength of a woman here because it's not easy to find, like, the zillion to women that have such a huge track record in business. Or have one lesson and then where people can access you, this is your camera. Consistency. Do the same thing over and over and over again. You can find us on our social media pages. We are on Instagram, at Rockmix International. We are on Facebook, at Rockmix International. We are on YouTube. We are on TikTok, and also physically, we are in Riru. If you just Google Rockmix International, you'll find our number. Give us a call. Reach out to us and we'll come to you. Yeah. I'm going to say my Google. Had a Piana number and an email, it shows something. Just Google Rockmix. You'll find us. We'll find us. Before we actually go, let me just sample one comment. And I'll say my comment says, this was in regarding to a question we asked on our social media. It was regarding, actually, business, yeah, 1,000.  Which is a good idea. Which is a really good idea. At least you're selling something. Still something. Start with anything. But if you want to go to your eyes, have a vision to grow.  Right. Yes. Anything that you start, you can start small, but you're not allowed to remain small. All right. Thank you so much, Ms. Rosemary Kirimi. By the way, she has employed 30 people and permanent. Yes, we have 30 members of staff. Yeah.  You should be there sometime. I will. I promise I will. Rosemary Kirimi, she's the CEO and also a founder, co-founder of Rockmix International. An incredible company. And thank you so much for sharing with us your skills. Thank you. And I trust 24 and 4 is going to be an amazing year for business owners. Yes. We are looking forward to a really, really amazing year. Right. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. So we call it a day right here on Entrepreneurship Tuesday. And be rest assured. We'll see you next time right here. Advocate yourself for the channel. Personally, at Bronsack 101. Will you be able to do it? Rockmix International. All right, at Rockmix International. Thank you so much. Thank you.


Well thank you all for joining us and welcome to our session Pathways for an Economic Reset. Now you all have a chance to of course ask as many questions as you want to please send those questions through using the Slido app and we'll try and get to as many as we can. I couldn't be more delighted to do this session because it's a very important topic and we're trying to figure out you know as we know COVID-19 is really exposing some of the inadequacies of economic systems causing global concerns for lives but also our own livelihoods in the longer term. So in this panel we're going to try and assess what we can do differently and as leaders try and chart a transition to a greener and more inclusive recovery what will policy reforms look like to try and improve social mobility as well. I'm delighted to be joined by my all-star panel Ahem Steiner, Administrator United Nations Development Program and Finnecan Vice-Chair at Bank of America. Brad Smith, President, Microsoft and Ellen Jope, Chief Executive Officer of Unilever. So thank you all for joining us. I wanted to just start with a very broad but difficult question and ask each of you if you think the ESG agenda is more likely than not to emerge strengthened from this recession. Ahem let's start with you. Thank you very much Francine it's a it's a pleasure to join you and such a distinguished panel so I think my answer is absolutely yes and I think it is in part because what this pandemic has done so far is not really changed the future yet but it has very much revealed the present and I think if you look at what is happening in our world from a pandemic to an economic freefall the first thing that has become obvious is how vulnerable we are how vulnerable poorer people are how vulnerable our economies and societies are to a situation in which you know basic health coverage and inequality in terms of poverty but also the digital gap which has suddenly become so critical in people's ability to cope with lockdowns have shown the world to to be when it is essentially leaving so many behind and I think that is a critical part of understanding that as we look forward and the role that business markets the economy at large will play in allowing us to return or to build forward better I mean there are many phrases that we use right now clearly this is a historic moment it is a project of extraordinary possibility but also a very frightening prospect because if you simply be a back to the normal of yesterday we will be weaker we will be economically damaged and we will still be operating with the same kind of inequalities but also the sustainability Achilles heels that have defined the last decades of of development progress and as the United Nations as the head of the United Nations Development Programme we have focused very much on trying to help countries see how they can work together through parliaments but also with business with civic leaders in trying to address the ability to stabilize with an opportunity to also invest in more opportunities in the future whether it is addressing the need for particularly looking after the vulnerable and the poor with a temporary basic income right now in order to make the lockdowns and the containment of the virus more feasible whether it is a massive investment in the transition towards the greener economy but it is also to understand the significance of connecting all citizens that are able to and want to use the internet and broadband in the coming years because right now only half the world's just over half the world's population actually has access to broadband which is why also over a billion children cannot go to school right now so these are just examples of where ESG in the way that businesses shareholders but also markets understand their role in the larger drama that is playing out becomes a very central issue and I think very much the focus also in boardrooms and with many CEOs around the world and do you agree with that will something actually change a lot of people you know understand what's at stake but given the severity of the recession given you know the the scarring that we're living through will ESG really get a boost well I think we have to transcend the the notion that ESG somehow operates in a space of its own I think it is very much linked to what kind of government policies what kind of priorities to our society said I think we should not be complacent history teaches us that sometimes out of crisis come great moments of pivoting forward into a better into a more positive reality but more often than not the tendencies to try and just scramble back to where we were before so I think ESG needs to be understood in a larger public debate about what kind of societies do we want what kind of economies do we wish to have and out of that I think will come also a new direction for ESG but it certainly will be broader I think it will be less corporately defined I think it will be more embedded in a larger view and consensus around what makes our societies healthy happy successful sustainable and that in turn will define also the economies within which businesses operate and where ESG is an instrument a tool it's it's not an end in itself and so how can company led initiatives you know drive this new agenda well I agree with much of what Archim has just said but but I do think we have hope here because in recent years there's a a fair amount of data that's been put forward to demonstrate that ESG if it's inculcated into the behavior of a company that the company itself does better less bankruptcy higher satisfaction with its clients and customers and even sometimes higher multiple so all of those are accrued to the benefit of of looking at ESG you know a few years ago I guess a year or so ago the business roundtable put out a statement that they would look at things beyond shareholders but I think that's been established through the world economic forum and its stakeholder capitalism mandate for years and those companies that have taken up that mantle have simply done better particularly now during the pandemic because they thought about their employees and the social contract they have with their employees they thought about their customers and the social contract that they have with them and they are doing better than those that have just ignored it further I think whether it's looking at the European Commission and soon the European Parliament's passage of a Green Deal new language in the European Commission new language by the SEC new language by the International Federation of Accountants where this sort of broadening its mandate beyond pure financials is making a big difference there is some new work that's going on it was established we raised it at the Davos in January Alan is very much involved in this so I won't take his thunder but Unilever is a big leader here 200 companies came together working with the IBC the International Business Council the WEF Bank of America Chairman and CEO Brian Moynihan is the chair of the IBC and we worked with four the big four accounting firms these 200 companies to see if we could come up with metrics that we could agree on and those metrics would indicate the sort of ESG kind of platform that all of us would agree to and I'm encouraged to say that over 120 companies have signed on I think there'll be announcement as soon as tomorrow from the WEF about this so I see this as being from a regulatory point of view from a legislative point of view and from I think companies own sense of survival in the future that we're seeing a real convergence now that we had not here to foresee and measurable so Alan let me go to you because we're getting a couple of questions that basically kind of goes back to the idea that Anne was talking about and is how long will it take for us to realize that all economic activity needs to be part of a circular economy and guided by ecological principles I mean is it encouraging business or is it encouraging governments to see it like that Alan you might be muted I definitely was muted you know Francine sometimes cliches are true you measure what you treasure you don't get what you expect you get what you inspect and yet our main measures of success remain solely financial it's bizarre and it's outdated you know the definition of success for a country which is usually GDP our traditional financial metrics are built on you know environmental degradation and growing inequality and surely COVID-19 as we know how interdependent all our systems are we need 21st century tools for a 21st century environment and so we're huge supporters of standardizing actually and mandating non-financial reporting that Anne referred to we strongly support the WEF-IBC working forward to the launch tomorrow but this reporting of non-financial metrics we think is just one of five changes that a business can make the other four not a surprise it's really believing that operating to the benefit of multiple stakeholders works serving customers properly looking after your employees being fair with suppliers making a positive contribution to society and the health of the planet will lead to better financial returns most business leaders still don't believe that they see as a trade-off between financial returns and responsible conduct then we need to price in major externalities carbon being the most obvious example and we need to shift our R&D investment and our business model development towards a circular versus a linear approach and the business case is there so to directly answer the question the business case for circularity is crystal clear and then the final point is as businesses we need to be committed to fair value distribution along the company's value chain and that means not just whether you're paying your people properly are your suppliers paying properly are your distributors paying their people properly and once you've made that mental shift get our and we need to get our investors on board create belief and re-skill our management and advocate for the these types of changes when we do that business will be a positive force good in the world and Brad if you look at you know what Microsoft has been doing of course digital skills re-skilling upskilling but our governments doing or not do you sometimes feel like if you look at all this you know technological language for workers does it feel like it's really businesses that are doing the heavy lifting well I think we're all going to need to do more in the business community and in government circles alike I do think that one of the lasting changes from this pandemic is the increasing acceleration of digital technology I'm not prepared to sign up for the proposition that will all of the rest of our lives on zoom calls I think there's a lot to be said for getting together with people in person but we're finding in so many ways that jobs are becoming more digital we're finding that telehealth services for example are an enormous compliment to the ability to see a doctor or a nurse in person and almost every job that we see through LinkedIn which Microsoft owns is becoming more digital so what does that mean it means that people are going to need more digital skills I do think there's a lot more than governments need to do to help with this part of the economy you know to invest in more digital skills in you know education and higher education to provide new resources to people to pursue lifelong learning but I also think there's an important connection between the private and public sectors in this regard if you look back at the last 20 years after an upsurge in employer investments in employee skilling in the late in your 1990s we've seen 20 years of decline and stagnation by employers investing in the skilling of their employees and I think especially as we look to a recovery we need to have a recovery that is led in part by small business we're going to need to help small businesses on board new employees we're going to need to help small businesses invest in skilling of their employees and this is a huge opportunity I think for governments to think the new about tax credits and other incentives they can provide but ultimately it's an ecosystem that brings the public and private sectors together that's the way we I think we need to think about it but Brad do you think we need to change metrics so you know not look at GDP or not look at shareholder return and find another language to I think the real I think the message and I think we're all saying it perhaps in slightly different ways you know it's not as if you know economic metrics are going to go away it's not as if GDP is no longer important it obviously is but I think we've all realized that there's more to life and there's more to success than economics and money alone and I think that this is a realization that's been spreading across the business community across the past five years you see that in the business roundtables you know really broad support for the approach that they've taken in the last year I think having a roadmap with metrics as you're hearing here I think that's enormously helpful and ultimately I've always felt that it's perhaps less about you know business success versus societal responsibility and perhaps more about long-term versus short-term ways of thinking you know if you want to buy a stock on Monday and sell it on Wednesday I've never stood up and said buy Microsoft if you want to buy a stock in 2020 and hold it to 2030 I think you should want to invest in companies really like Bank of America and like Unilever and like Microsoft where we are focused on what we're doing in the communities where we work and in the world as a whole because I think that is going to make us more successful it's going to attract and retain stronger employees it's going to build the kinds of ties that will bind us with our customers and so I think long-term business and societal success can move forward together. Anthony what can and these are some of the great questions that are also coming in what can society do to incentivize the adoption of stakeholder capitalism like what Brad is saying makes sense but how much can you actually make sure that people really adopt it and go forward with it? Well I think in terms of shareholders and stakeholders if you're an investor individual or an institutional investor the expectations of the companies in which you invest in needs to be heard so I assure you that any company any one of the public companies you're talking to here today we are hearing our shareholders we are hearing our stakeholders they are broader than just economic they are looking for us to be citizens of the world and whether we are abiding by the various sort of alphabet soup of third parties that evaluate us for climate or ESG part of what we're talking about here today is that we want to set a benchmark with the IBC work international business council work and the WEF so that we can have a metrics that are completely transparent to the world from all companies because that will be a very effective starting point for all of us it will be an immediate indicator of who is doing this sort of half you know maybe two dozen elements of these of these metrics and who isn't doing them and then as an investor whether it's an individual and their 401k or an institutional investor those companies that abide by those rules and are doing well at them should be your first choice and I think they already are I mean all of us meet with institutional investors all the time and the question of ESG did not come up five years ago and it came up sort of four years ago and in the last three years they are in the room and that is front and center for every conversation and I came where should these metrics really come from I mean are you seeing a lot of people really asking the right questions but then being committed to them or is there a danger that once we get out of the pandemic we go back to what we were like four or five years ago I think one of the sobering lessons of the you know the last financial crisis 2008 2009 is that it in a sense was largely driven by a quick return to normality and yet what we witnessed in the in the year subsequently is that maybe on the stock markets we were doing very well but in our societies we're increasingly seeing the ruptures and and the consequence of not acting at the time you know before this pandemic and we we witnessed on our television you know sets every night protests breaking out from Hong Kong to Santiago de Chile to Paris the United States I mean there there is a great deal of conflict that is manifesting itself around the kind of choices that have been made so I think the first thing is you must acknowledge that indeed we are in the midst of an of a situation that is perhaps without precedent and in an odd sort of way the long term has suddenly become the short-term reality and the short-term decisions that we make have become the lock-ins for the long term and I think this is shifting very much what Anne what Brad and Alan just spoke to as well how businesses look at at the future of markets and here I think transparency and accountability and being part of the solution as opposed to part of the problem are just sort of three headlines that I think capture well what what consumers what what markets what investors are looking for and you know Alan and I were just before this call together and in another call that's on champions 12.3 it's a sustainable development goal that deals with with food loss and food waste when you realize it in our world today we lose up to one-third and waste up to one-third of all the food produced here is an extraordinary irrationality in our economy and we can address it if you look with Brad and I I've had very good conversation with Microsoft also the digital gap this is not something that has to be a reality we can close that digital gap in the next few years and and fintech the whole opportunity that arises with the emergence of digital finance technology to bring literally hundreds of millions of people into the financial system that are so far excluded and simply because they don't have any collateral they don't have an address don't exist all of these are good examples of how you know revolutionary transformations are possible but they need to be embraced by leaders in business governments have to incentivize enable them and I think then consumers will reward people so and and companies for making those choices and the ability to to measure that and to demonstrate that you are indeed changing course I think is an important part of our much more transparent and let's say mature public scrutiny of governments of business of the United Nations for that matter so yes I think that's that's the direction but I think how difficult is it for governments to come together and collaborate at a time where you have a lot of geopolitical questions and this goes back to one of the questions being asked on Slido but also you know protectionism until we have that how difficult is it to come together as nations well I often remind people that if you ever are involved in a local parents teachers association or in a local community you know representational form you know differences in views are you you know not unique to intergovernmental relations I think we have to recognize that there will always be different views on how to move forward the fact that we are passing through a period right now that is from a geopolitical point of view first of all increasingly polarized and secondly with the pandemic also under enormous stress and that's why you know behind me you see the empty general assembly although this morning it is actually not empty it is the beginning of of the high level general assembly week and I think points to the fact that it is extremely challenging but I think we have time and again over the last 75 years of the United Nations being in existence found ways in which despite our differences we can find common ground and when you listen to what my fellow panelists have just addressed then this is a moment where all difference is notwithstanding there is no way forward out of the pandemic or indeed in terms of some of the inequalities sustainability issues without international cooperation so wisdom and also let's say good judgment is required while there is a lot of anger in in our political atmosphere but that's precisely why I believe those of us who can counter that notion that we are falling apart as a global community need to speak up now but not only speak up we need to act and that's what gives people hope and that is where polarization becomes less powerful and you know rational thinking and the sense that solidarity and cooperation are as much in my self-interest as they are in the interest of solving these issues becomes the driving force this is not just lofty ideals it's actually what history has taught us time and again I'm getting quite a lot of questions about greenwashing Alan let me start off with you so this question is basically how can we ensure a framework against the troubling evolution of corporate greenwashing so Alan maybe lay out you know the top three priorities that you would do either a common language or new metrics to try and avoid this yeah well I think it kind of comes back to two things one is a belief system and the other is reporting non-financial metrics so a lot of the even the discussion here even the questions that are coming in are predicated on an assumption that there is a trade-off between either delivering on ESG metrics or delivering strong financial performance and that investors and retail investors and people will some or other choose do I invest in an ESG responsible company or an a company that drives better financial performance and we have to break that paradigm we have to build the evidence that offering sustainable solutions to consumers conducting yourself with decency makes you an attractive employer that treating suppliers well that reducing your environmental footprint actually lowers costs and all these things drive better financial performance then there will be less suspicion there will be a belief that is not a trade-off between ESG and better financial performance but so long as we present it as one or the other the the shift will never happen and then in terms of corporate greenwashing actually what Adam was talking about there we've got the big four accounting firms designing and developing these standardized metrics and I think they will become as reliable for all their strengths and weaknesses as traditional financial metrics and frankly I can tell you leading a big company that takes a lot of initiative on environmental and social issues there's nowhere to hide so we publish everything and if it's not accurate we get called out on it so I believe society will hold us to account but if we make it easier for society to do that by having standardized metrics we'll be in a better place and what would be your your two or three priorities uh well it's easy climate and nature is the first social impact is the second and and probably waste and your waste footprint would be the third okay and Finnegan your priorities uh well I think my first priority is to see this work uh be presented and embraced in addition to the four accounting firms setting the metrics they're working in conjunction with the global reporting initiative SASB which is sustainability accounting standards board and the climate disclosure standards board so they aren't doing it on their own they've got some of the best standard setters in the world at their side setting setting these metrics that's one uh the other is that so many companies are already carbon neutral and to be carbon neutral that means you have to have uh the greenhouse gas protocol evaluate your work in three scopes one two and three one and two or what make you carbon neutral three is what will get us all to net zero again that's a third party evaluating us uh and we for instance are carbon neutral and then I guess uh again to eliminate the idea of greenwashing you've got the european parliament who will soon pass a green deal once the green deal is passed it isn't just that we'll be at net zero in 2050 it's that we will be more than halfway there by 2030 and every company that's a multinational will have to figure out how to make that uh transition 2030 is like yesterday for us so uh the ability to make that transition you aren't going to do it in one part of the world and not another you will go across your entire company and make sure it can get to net zero so that's an immediate uh incentive to get going and although the u.s. has uh doesn't have similar legislation and as everyone knows it's more political in the u.s. as a practical matter any multinational will move to uh abide by the green deal because because they're operating in europe and also maybe if you want to take this next question which is what changes and adjustments are needed in the financial sector to reflect a more integrative and long-term thinking of business and this person's also asking what about the role of taxation well I think there's uh it depends on what government you're in to determine whether it's uh taxation or incentive probably will be both by the way uh well I would say if you put as a very practical matter once the green deal passes uh any company every company that's a multinational and any company in europe will need financing to get there so the financial institutions know that already uh whether it's issuing a green bond underwriting a green bond uh uh capital markets is getting involved I think the biggest problem that all of us will have is once you get to how you get to carbon neutrality there's always going to be an offset there's something in your operation that can't uh be done renewably with solar or wind you can't buy all entirely renewable electricity for one reason or another and we all require offsets right now most of the offsets are in the nonprofit world like reforestation and the amazon um or wind farms that that are nonprofits there will be a market there'll be carbon pricing I think there will be a market for the offsets and that's actually an economic opportunity for those that are in the renewable business bread what would you have as top two or three priorities to you know to accelerate this change well the first thing I would point to is is climate and I think in particular carbon that's why we committed that will be carbon negative as a company by 2030 I do think just to pick up on some of the things we're all talking about you know we need to have transparency and we need to have transparency based on the common vocabulary and common measurement systems I think that's the best way to preclude the risk of greenwashing I think we should aspire to live in a world where say by 2030 if not sooner as consumers we can look at the products that we buy whether it's an automobile or something smaller and understand how much carbon was emitted to create that automobile just like we understand today how many calories we'll consume when we buy a product at the grocery store and even though this is a time as you pointed out where I think it's harder to bring governments together the truth is that's probably the last step in the process anyway before you need before you can get to say government regulation around something like transparent reporting of carbon emissions you need standards and that's what we're talking about here before you get the standards you need experimentation and I think this is where businesses together with NGOs can move more quickly and lay the foundation the two other issues that I would point to more briefly are closing the digital gap I think for any company in the tech sector it's what we know best it's what we contribute to most it's where we need to put a large part of our energy and finally I would say especially as a company headquartered in the United States if we're not prioritizing racial equity in 2020 then there probably will never be a year when we do I think it's an imperative across the United States it's an issue that reaches around the world it absolutely is it needs to be a priority for a company like ours yeah for a company Brad but also for government and so our government's doing you know enough to address inequalities that are have just been exacerbated by the pandemic well look I think the short answer is for anything that we're talking about here and for anyone we're talking about the answer is the same no we're not doing enough we're not doing enough because these problems are huge and we're living through a period of time where in many ways we're either learning more as we are about something like this a internet connectivity or things are becoming worse because of a recession so we need to do more and I think fundamentally we need to do more individually and we need to do more together I think it's a good time to think a little bit about the roles we each play businesses play one role in the economy and you know we we need to have business models that are profitable but they also can be business models that are responsible civil society NGOs you know are the foundation of so many countries around the world and they need to be innovating and we need to be doing more to support them and ultimately absolutely we need governments to do to do more both individually and collectively regionally and globally that's the only hope for more progress on something like the sustainable development goals okay I'm getting quite a lot of questions actually on you know large corporates versus small corporates so many of these recommendations this person writes in are focused on global large corporate worlds companies but how can this also be applied to small and medium-sized businesses absolutely correct and I think a vital question because we often forget that in in most countries around the world when we talk about business business is actually small medium-scale enterprises and very often even micro enterprises it's also the famous informal sector in many developing countries in which UNDP works people earn their livelihood 70 80 percent of the time in the informal sector they have no social protection they run a corner shop maybe a workshop a garage a service provider that's one end and I think it is critical that we first will enable them to have a more equitable opportunity I mean whether it is access to broadband for example to turn their business you know into something that can keep up with the rest of the markets and there's a very simple example in Uganda in the middle of the lockdown one of the projects that UNDP undertook is to help market traders in the vegetable markets to essentially create a sort of uber equivalent platform to be able to connect consumers in Kampala in order to be able to give them some opportunity to trade with agriculture produce extraordinary things are happening in this digital space right now and I think our ability to understand that you know even in a country like Japan 98 percent of businesses there are small medium-scale enterprises so this is not a phenomenon only in developing countries means that we on the one hand look to the larger corporations who shape markets and also consumer perception to be leaders in moving these agendas forward but we have to then put special programs in place and that's where again digital finance becomes so critical another example in the pandemic is you know there are now digital platforms where small medium-scale enterprises can borrow money literally either in the morning in order to buy produce selling the market and repay it on their on their smartphone or indeed enterprises can borrow as in China with the Ant Group where with algorithms artificial intelligence and their application is processed in a few seconds and they're able to borrow money we have entirely new frontiers in the financial system here that also are an opportunity to precisely cater to the needs of a small medium-scale enterprises so to your question or the question I would ask I can only reaffirm that we have indeed to better understand how we also held those businesses to be part of a transforming marketplace where technology consumer preferences and the imperatives to act on something like climate change are much more central but also actionable for them Alan do you see a way I mean being a big company do you see a way of maybe bridging the sustainability or ESG gap between small and big companies I think that big companies have got the responsibility to pioneer the techniques and methodologies that we were talking about and make them available to smaller companies to don't remember small companies are often the suppliers or customers of big companies we're interdependent here and one particular area of importance is that as devastating as the health impact of covid has been I think the ripple effects on well being well sorry on livelihoods as the the true size the true scale of unemployment ripples through various economies is going to be devastating and actually now is just the moment when governments might have the political breathing space to unlock job creation in new sectors and that nearly always begins with small and medium size enterprises so I think this is a this idea that small businesses can be part of building back a more just economy is something that governments can hop on right now Brad talk to me maybe about some of the key challenges actually ahead I mean you know even if there's a converging view what do you see as a top three things and this is actually a question that's also coming in what are the key challenges in preparing the company strategy or the world strategy to design a successful pathway to the great reset well I think there's two things that are interesting to think about I mean first of all companies do different things they have different missions and as we think about you know for example of all the world's challenges reflected in the SDGs I think the first question is for each of us who are in a business where do we best fit in what can we contribute you know it would be odd if Unilever and Microsoft were trying to do exactly the same thing we're in different industries the same as Truthful Bank of America but by each focusing on what we do well we can actually complement and partner with each other and I think that is the first sort of pragmatic question for business I think a second one builds on what we've just been talking about and what Alan was referring to I think we always have to keep in mind you know businesses do need to operate with at least a level of profitability meaning you know not losing money at a minimum and not everybody can do the same thing I don't think it's necessarily realistic to expect a small business to do the same thing as a large business in a particular moment of time and the same can be true of business large businesses in different economic sectors and give you a concrete example at Microsoft we are in month seven of paying all of the hourly workers who work in our offices around the world regardless of whether there is any work for them to do a lot of them have had no work to do for seven months because so many of our offices have been closed most of these individuals are actually paid not by us directly but by other suppliers small businesses so we pay the small businesses and we ensure that the small businesses continue to compensate these individuals we should do that in my view in part because we can afford to do that digital technology has been in a beneficiary of this pandemic if you just look at company revenue streams is it feasible for a large airline to do that or a large hotel no they're they're in different economic straits so if we start by asking ourselves where we can make the best contribution and then ask ourselves what we can afford to do and each do what we can I think you start to put together a recipe that can bring businesses together and Finnegan where do you see the biggest challenge or challenges well specific to small businesses I think that as Alan said the the onus is on the larger companies first but we of course we're the in the United States the largest lender to small businesses so we have a pretty good insight into what their issues are and the first is generally you need to create a bigger marketplace for the small businesses to do more business so with big companies we're working on that now we made a billion dollar commitment for racial sort of equality in terms of wealth creation and economic opportunity in the US and really we're starting with small businesses and trying to create job creation for individuals to either work for us or other large companies or even small businesses giving them some training for a small business itself I think that to the degree that we have contracts with them and we set certain expectations and we pay them well enough that in turn allows them to pay their own people so this is a very circular opportunity and I think we all see it as being quite real with minimum wages being lifted technology has allowed us all to do more in less time so those people that work for us have a bigger opportunity for health benefits and better minimum wage Alan would you see it yeah Alan yeah look I noticed one of the questions that's come in on the uh Slido is how can we get China Russia and the US to cooperate closely together to ensure we remain on the same page now I think that particular question might be just outside the remit of this panel however however I doubt there's a global business person who would disagree with the fact that global free trade has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty it is global trade that has allowed the development of a middle class across the emerging world it is precisely because we have a globally connected interdependent supply chain that Unilever's been able to continue to supply our products through this crisis if we would have retreated to some bizarre form of national integrity making only locally for locally around the 150 or so countries in the world that we do business we would be out of business and so I just ask all business leaders and everyone on this panel who are listening in to please don't give up advocating for global free trade because it will play such an important role in the post-covid economic recovery in the world yeah and on that I'd like to hand it to Sadia Sahidi head of the New Economy and Society platform to share the next steps on how the ideas generated in this discussion and other discussions will be taken forward through the forum's platform to enable the co-creation of frameworks for practically shaping an economic recovery and economic resilience and also reset so Sadia take it away thank you very much um first of all let me thank you Francine for your excellent moderation as always um thank you to Allen Brad Ann and Akim all of you are uh collaborators and and and friends and people who we have been driving forward a lot of um impact with so thank you very much for joining this very rich and nuanced conversation I think we heard quite a bit of uh nuanced realism about the challenges ahead but we also heard quite a bit of optimism about this being the moment to deploy uh our capabilities um to to try to achieve that economic reset um at the forum uh we'll be doing quite a bit of work uh first focused on this pillar on economic growth transformation recovery and revival second focused very much on jobs wages social safety nets um and the future of work third focused on education skills and lifelong learning and fourth focused on equity inclusion and social justice and I think you heard all of those themes here today particularly I'd like to call out a new effort where we're trying to look at a new dashboard for the new economy so similar to what the ESG space is doing in terms of the corporate metrics what needs to be done at a more national level and then working with a number of countries to actually see if we can use this moment of transformation to adopt those new policy targets and to adopt ways of being able to measure fairer and greener economies more on that uh later on today uh from the 20th to the 23rd of October at the forum's jobs reset summit we will be continuing large part of today's conversation with that again thank you Francine and thanks to the rest of the panelists thank you everyone have a great afternoon