These are the hard-working men and women that do the tough jobs that help keep El Paso County moving. I don't care what happens on the job, as long as all my guys go on the end of the day. This is Tough Jobs. I'm Jotsman. I'm Jamie, general maintenance foreman of El Paso County. Sweet, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. So what are we doing out here today? Today we're going to go pick up some dead animals, some trash on the side of the road, and later on today probably meet up with our tree crew and cut some trees. Okay, so is this what your day normally looks like? Yeah, normally our day consists of two to three guys cutting trees, one or two guys picking up trash, and then during the summer we do ride-away mowing, ditch lines, medians, and stuff like that. Okay, so El Paso County is a pretty big county. So are we going all over the place today? Do we have a set schedule? Yeah, we'll be all over the place today. We're going several places. We'll be all over the county. All right, well let's get started. Let's get out of here. All right, let's go. Okay. All right, so we're not going to go far here the first little deal. Did you just get a call or something? So we got a service request for this area that came in this morning. Okay. For a deer and a dead dog. A big part of our job is just kind of like a big game of hide and seek out here. So how do you deal with all the smells and all the grossness? It's just something you get used to. Every animal is different. You do. Eventually you get used to it. Sometimes you'll get one that'll gross you out. Yeah. You gag a little bit. Do you ever worry about diseases and stuff like that? Yeah, we do. We take precautions for that. We do wear our gloves. If we get one that's particularly nasty, we do have nitrile gloves that we'll put inside our leather gloves just to protect from blood-borne pathogens and disease and stuff like that. Yeah, I'd be so worried about that.  That's completely okay if we don't. I am completely okay with being an observer. No, no. You're getting dirty. So what we're looking for here is some kind of dead animal. Is that it? Yeah, that's it. So now this is where all that safety stuff comes in. Okay. John's going to get turned around here and he'll probably pull up on the other side of this animal and then we'll get you to put it on the truck. Okay. No, that's okay. Yeah. No, I'm good. No, you're good. I'm absolutely good with absolutely disease watching. Okay. So we're going to get out. We can go ahead and get out of the truck. So Jamie, what are we doing right now? So we're going to go pick up this dead animal on the road. It's a dead deer. Uh-huh. So what we're going to do is we'll get the tailgate down and we'll bring it down to the ground and we'll get the animal loaded up and we'll pick it up and put it on the back of the truck. So do you typically do this with just one person or two people? Typically we do it with one to two. Two's better than one. Okay. Just safer, especially with bigger animals. Sure. Two's a lot better. Go ahead and show me what's next. Okay. So we'll get the tailgate down on the truck. Now I know I said I would help, but I think I'm going to rescind on that invitation. No, no, no, no, no. You got to help. And allow your friend John to help you. You're not going to help? Um... Come on. You can do it. Oh gosh, no. Come on. You're not going to help? Um... Let's grab the front leg. Oh my gosh. You can do it. It's not that bad. Let's grab the front leg. Oh my gosh. Grab the front leg. You can do it. That's part of the job. Oh, that's a good thing. Oh my gosh. So just dragging up on the truck and moving around. Oh my gosh. So dragging up on the truck? Nope. You've got it. Here you go. Oh, that is... Oh, it smells funny. Well, not funny, but like, you know. Oh, and there's blood. Oh gosh. So then we'll pick it up on the back of the truck bed. Oh, and the leg is broken. Very thankful for the job you do because I could not do this. Then we'll just shut the truck and we go on to the next one. And we're going to do this how many times today? A bunch. Oh, okay. So you'll get good at this by the end of the day. When you think of a dead animal on the side of the road, your image of it and like the reality of doing it are like two very different things. Oh yeah, for sure. So you ready to get out of here? I need a shower now. A shower? Oh gosh. Your day's not even closed over yet. Oh. I can't believe you made me touch that. It's so different to think of like, oh, I see a dead deer on the side of the street, right? And then actually go and physically interact with it. It's, it's like a completely different ball game. Yeah. I'm still like, I'm still so grossed out by it. So I don't understand how you're able to do this every single day. It's just part of the job. It's, it's a nasty job that has to be done. Yeah. But we'll try to get you into some different stuff too, not just dead animals. We got a few we need to pick up today, but we'll get you into some other stuff too. We have some trash requests we need to go out and get. Okay. So we'll go do some of that. And like I said, maybe we can get met up with my tree crew today. Hopefully. I don't know if that'll happen, but we'll give it a shot. Do you ever come home just like completely covered in like, blood and stuff? I wouldn't say covered. You know, you get a lot of time on your boots maybe. Gotcha. Sometimes on the bottom of your pant legs, we try not to get dirty just because it's, you know, the smells aren't great obviously. Right. And stuff like that. So we try real hard not to get it on us if we can avoid it. Um, days when we're out doing like our tree work and stuff like that, those days, yeah, we get dirty. Um, the saws are thrown sawdust and stuff like that. You get naturally dirt flying around in the air and stuff like that. Um, so yeah, we come home pretty dirty days like that. And then when it's obviously summertime and hot out, you know, you're sweating and stuff like that. So that just makes it that much worse. Oh, was it another deer? Oh, that one looks very. 337 through on three. I got to flip around. Um, it's back there on Goss Hawk. That looked very, very brown. Yeah. That one's going to be nasty. Yeah. I am not touching that one. I need you to know that right now. All right. Let's get out and see what kind of trouble we can get into. I am not ready for this at all. You'll be good. You can do it. Um, no, I am not touching this one. You need to know this now. So for this one, we're going to do a little bit different. Um, this one's a little bit more gory and messy. Oh, it's completely smushed. Yeah. So we're going to use nitrile gloves, disposable gloves to handle this. Um, I won't make you do it. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks so much. You did so well on the last one. You get to reprieve this time. So we're just going to put this one on the truck same way as last time. Although a little bit more gory. So not going to be as fun. Oh my gosh. It's an, yeah, it's absolutely in bits. You know, I was actually expecting it to be like in separate chunks. So I'm very happy for you that it was still sort of intact. Yeah. Just a little. That's kind of an example of how gory it can get. And like I said, we take extra precautions when it gets like that. Just so we are safe. But that's about as nasty as it can get. We'll go on to the next one. Yeah. Okay. Great. Sounds great. Let's go. So right now you're, I mean, you're seeing probably, I'm not going to say the worst part of our job. Um, cause you know, the trash can get particularly bad. And you'll probably see a little bit of that this afternoon or later in the day at least. Like just illegal dumping. Yeah. Um, you'll see some of the hazards we run into with that. You know, as bad as the animals seem to be with, you know, fluids and whatnot. Right. We can get into areas where the homeless have been. Um, and we have to go in and clean up after them. Yeah. Um, there's a whole new set of hazards with that. Right. Um, we can get into, um, human waste. We can get into, um, needles is the big thing. That's true. Use needles. Um, so that's something we have to be very conscious of. When we get into that, we normally are using shovels, rakes, uh, pickers. We don't stick our hands into that stuff because you can't see what you're putting your hand into. Exactly. So we have to be super, super safe at that point. So as bad as the animals are, the trash into things come with a whole hazard in and of themselves. This job that you do, even though it might seem simple, right? Like you're picking up dead animals and stuff, right? There's definitely a safety component to it. Um, how do you guys, like, make sure you're staying safe? Tell me some, some crazy stories. Um, as far as keeping ourselves safe, um, you know, just over time with training and experience really out on the road, you learn to really watch.   You always try to keep eyes in the back of your head, so to speak. And you really use your senses. You listen. You're listening for cars, you know, maybe accelerating at a higher rate of speed or decelerating. Um, those are all sounds you can hear out on the highway and can be indicative of something going to happen. Um, also obviously tire screeching. Yeah. Um, heart breaking, stuff like that. You'll hear those kind of things out on the road. And that's something to be aware of.  Where are we headed to right now? So right now we're headed down to Mark Shuffle Road. Okay. Um, back actually near our shop. Um, we've got two deceased antelope, um, that are highly visible down there. Okay. Um, we have to get stuff like that. Just so the general public, we get it out of their sight. Um, something they don't have to look at, because a lot of people, you know, they don't care to look at stuff like that. On their morning and afternoon commute. So we try to get the stuff in highly visible areas going very fast. What's, what's different out here? So out here, we really got to be really aware of traffic out here. Um, we've got traffic coming on both sides of us out here. Um, we're in a median, so we're kind of trapped right here if something were to happen. We don't have a lot of ways to run here. Um, best thing we could do if something were to happen would be getting in front of this truck and let the truck take the impact if there's going to be one. But we need to try to make this as quick as possible so we can get out of here. I'm just definitely not safe. So I'm going to have you help me. Come up and grab the rear leg. We'll just tow this on the truck. Okay, now step up here. Step up. Yep, come on, right there. Come on, help me. Yeah, you got to help me. Step up here. Oh gosh. Okay, now grab the leg and we'll just tow it right here in the back of the truck. It smells terrible. Right there. Good job. Pull it down. And go down. Hold on. Oh, that smells absolutely horrible. Good job. Oh my goodness. All right, good job. We are done with dead animals for the day. Oh, I'm so glad. So we're going to go on to something more fun. So what are we doing now? Now that we're done with animal pickup for the day. So now we're going to start trash pickup. Okay. We've got a crew that went out over the weekend of private individuals. That was part of our adopter road program. Okay. So we go behind them now and pick up the bags that they picked up. So we're going to be working on Mark Sheffle right now. We're working on more live traffic instead off the side of the road. So we'll be a lot more careful here. We're going to be stopping in like turn lanes and stuff like that to grab trash. Okay. So we're going to be a lot more careful.  Yep.  Uh-huh. We'll just jump out and grab them. Okay, John. Come around in front of me, please. So you can just grab them. Yep. Give them a toss. You want to try it? No, that's okay. You didn't bring your gloves? You can go ahead. I'll do the next one. Okay. That's all there is to that. Okay. We'll go on to the next one. I was really going for expediency here, you know? There we go. Next one. Okay. Get your gloves this time. Okay. So you grab this one and throw it over the side of the truck. It looks very heavy. It might be. Good job. You almost didn't get it. It was heavy. John, you may be able to cut through this breaker right here. I don't know. You turn around a constitution.  I'm like, I think that was it for this side. So I'm going to flip it around. Yep, 10-4. I'm ready. When John pulls forward. Okay. Just throw all the stuff in the back to pick up. Just watch some of the bags might be heavy. Just give it a toss in the back of the truck. Ew! What happened? Ew! It's liquid on me. Are you okay? Yeah, no, that's it. You've got the rest. That's it. Oh, come on. No, I don't want to throw liquid on me. It's probably just water. You don't know that. You're guessing. I don't know that. But I'm just guessing. You're okay. You're still vertical. All right. We'll go on down the road to the next one. Shower. I don't even got bad yet. Definitely not a bad. I do not want to sit in these liquids.  What'd you learn? To not do this job. To fling it the other direction. Exactly. Ew! It's all over my jacket. You'll live for it. So now here we've got a little bit more of a hazard. Watch for nails. And stuff like that in these pieces of wood. Careful. Watch me. I'm going to hit myself. You two can put the tailgate down. Okay, no, we got it. Don't do that. Safety first, sir. Safety first. Put me in the head. I just like it. I'm starting to go. I guess that's why we have hard hats, huh? Yeah. That illustrates it perfectly. That was a better one. All right. On to the next one. Okay. Yep, I got a s**t all over me. Okay, pull off the road here, John. Okay, now we got a ton of stuff. So now he's picking up right over the ingate.   So much liquidy stuff. It's just water for the most part. Are you sure? Yeah. Positive. Do I lie to you? Yeah, yeah, I think you would. Like, it's literally a dirty job. It is. Very much so. Yeah. It's tough. It's taking care of the dirt. That's right. It just seems like no two days are the same, right? No, our job is always an adventure. Every day long. Every day. All day long. We do different stuff every single day. Yeah. You never know what you're going to come up to. You know.  So like illegal marijuana grows. They dump stuff on the side of the road when they're done with it, and that can be hazardous material. So we have to be cautious with that and handle it the right way because, you know, we could get hurt or come in contact with something that could make us sick. We've got some trash dumped on the side of the road here we're going to pick up. Okay. So the fourth is we're getting to the time of year we need to watch for snakes out here under things. So when we tip things up, we're going to have to look underneath them. I always want to keep something in front of you. That way if it were to be like say a rattlesnake, they can't bite.   You'll be able to keep something in between you and whatever might be underneath it. So go ahead and grab that one and we'll just throw these in the back of the truck. See, you should have kept it between you. I mean I'm trying, but it's like in a weird angle. Yep. So roll it up like this. Towards you. That way you can see if there's anything beyond it. So just take these and we'll throw them in the truck and then we'll get these other things. So just give those a toss into the truck. They should be light enough. Okay. So we'll grab these one at a time. Okay. Just come over here. They've got handles on them. Okay. Turn and go this way. Oh great. Okay. I love this. You good? All right. I feel like I have dirt all over my face now. You think so? Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Look, there's still a piece of the roadkill left right there. You want to pick it off? I'm okay with touching that. Thank you. Okay. Just checking. Thanks so much. You're welcome. You're very kind. I know. Okay. One at a time. We'll put these on the truck. Okay, this one here. Let's see if we can launch it clear to the front of the truck. All right. Hold up. Hold up. Three, two, one. Good job. And going down. I feel extremely strong and very, you know, like I'm doing a service for the community right now. You're doing great. Thank you. Thank you. You're doing a great job for the citizens. Okay. What's your next? All right. On to the next service request. Okay. We're going to go look at a homeless area. With this job that you do, even though it might seem simple, right? Like you're picking up dead animals and stuff.  We get stuff on the side of the road that's kind of, you know, cool, so to speak. We get everything. We've had a whole boat dumped on the side of the road. We've had a slide in pickup bed camper dumped on the side of the road. Several months ago, we had a 3,000 pound safe dumped on the side of the road that was an adventure to get off. It pushed our equipment that we had available to us at the time to its limit to try to get that thing loaded. There's a lot of laughs getting it on board. Or do you think it just fell off or did somebody actually like dump it? No. Most of what we see is not stuff that falls off. You can tell it's intentionally dumped. Okay. So Jamie, where are we now? Tell me a little bit about what's going on here. So we're off Las Vegas Boulevard. We're going to pick up some trash left behind by some of the homeless people. Okay. So we got this couch here that was left behind. We got to get it picked up.  Remember, lift with your knees, not your back. Okay. Well, let's see. You able to pick it up? Got it. Okay. Let's just walk sideways. Okay. Can you get on? Okay. So I'll need your help putting it on the truck. Yep. I think I'm on. Okay. Hang on. We'll find out. Now we're going to tip it up. I'm going to tip it towards you and pull it back a little bit. Except I'm falling. And we'll roll it on the truck. Just like that. All right. We're going down. What about these guys? We can throw those on. So just throw them on the truck. It'll go. Don't worry. Try a little harder on the second one. As you can tell, I don't do manual labor on the daily. What do you do daily? I'm an office worker.  Yeah. So I got the perfect person for this, huh? Exactly. So this is a very change of pace for me for sure. Nice. Well, you can get payback. You can make me do office work sometime. I don't know. You might get a proper cut with all that. So Jamie, we were almost done with our, what we were doing earlier. And then you got a phone call. Yeah.  So we had to come out here and handle it. Get the tree out of the road, which it looks like somebody else already is doing. Cool. We will hop out here and see what's kicking here. Right, Jamie. So we are back where we started this morning. We've gone out and done a couple of different things to say that this is a tough job that you do. And not just you. I would actually like to have John come over really quickly and join us so we can thank you properly for being a part of today. You're welcome. Yeah. What is your favorite part about working for El Paso County? The variety. Yeah. Well, for El Paso County, the people is my favorite thing. But in my job, it's the variety of what we did. Yeah. I think I can also say now with confidence that it definitely was a day with a lot of uncertainty, right? And you kind of have to go with the flow and be comfortable and have a variety of a skill set to do, do what you do. Well, this was an absolutely perfect day. I don't think I could have asked for a better day with a better opportunity to ask for a better day with a better team out there today. Thank you both for everything you do for El Paso County, for the Department of Public Works. Thank you for coming out. Yeah. We had fun with you today. Thank you. And until we see you guys again next time, for El Paso County, this is Tough Jobs.


The Internet of Things, IoT ecosystem is rapidly expanding with an estimated 50 billion devices connected to the Internet by 2020, leading to new classes of technical capability and application, more granular monitoring, and the development of data literacy behaviors. The IoT ecosystem involves four critical functional steps, data creation, information generation, meaning making, and action taking. This article was authored by Melanie Swan.


If you're new to this channel, I'm Gopony, I do new car truck SUV reviews on YouTube. And today, we are in the brand new 2022 Porsche Cayenne, courtesy of Mercedes-Benz of Hagerstown in Hagerstown, Maryland for more information on their inventory. Please feel free to check out the link in the description box below. And so obviously I wanted to check this one out because of course the legendary Porsche name, but there actually is one major change for the 2022 Cayenne, nothing really too exciting, but it's big at least for the Cayenne. So ultimately in this video, we will be testing out and going over everything about this one, from acceleration to braking, steering feel, ride quality, sound system, exhaust, all that fun stuff. So having said all of that, what do you guys say? Let's just go ahead and jump right into it. And as always, let's start with pricing. And so MSRP for the 2022 Cayenne, we'll start at $72,200. And I will emphasize start up because there are plenty of options for this thing. And we'll get more into that as the video goes on. And so powering our base Cayenne here will be a three liter turbocharged V6, putting out 335 horsepower at 6,500 RPM, 332 pound feet of torque coming into the right around 1,300 RPM. Power sent to all four wheels, all wheel drive does come standard on the Cayenne. Through an eight speed automatic with paddle shifters, which we're gonna test out here in a little bit, zero to 60 time is gonna come in at approximately 5.9 seconds, top speed 152 miles per hour, with MPG numbers coming in at 19 in the city, 23 on the highway, taking premium unleaded fuel. And so before we do any kind of fun paddle shifter or acceleration test here in our Cayenne, I wanted to mention the drive modes for this thing. This drive modes will include things like normal, sport, sport plus an individual adjusting things like the shift points, the throttle response, steering sensitivity, the suspension settings, and actually the exhaust note as well. So quite a bit of adjustments when it comes to this drive mode. So having said that now, what do you guys say? Let's go ahead and find it straight away. Let's put the paddle shifters and acceleration to the test here at the same time and let's see how quickly we are going to get up to speed. And let's see how quickly the paddle shifters are actually going to react for us here. All right, we're in first gear, off we go. Wow, okay, I'm losing my voice. Yeah, paddle shifters are freaking instantaneous as expected from any Porsche really, but that was an incredible acceleration, quite honestly, for the base engine configuration for the Cayenne. So definitely very impressed with that acceleration as well. You're not going to have any issues emerging on to the highway. I'm sorry I lost my voice there during the acceleration, but yeah, that was plenty of an acceleration. Like I said, paddle shifters very, very impressive here on the Cayenne with how they dealt. But anyways, to go along with that acceleration as always breaking is equally important. So upfront you will find 15.3 inch ventilated front disc with six piston aluminum monoblock fixed calipers. That is very impressive upfront in the back 13 inch ventilated rear disc with four piston aluminum monoblock fixed calipers in the back. As far as that breaking feel goes, it has been 100% on point. My short test drive here today, definitely on the firmer side of things, but instantly breaks you to a stop in the Cayenne. And so probably one of the better breaking feels quite honestly, I have felt in quite a while there. Then touching on suspension and handling, you're actually going to get a very unique suspension for the Cayenne, really for a lot of Porsches, but integrated 4D chassis control, which essentially analyzes the current driving situation in all three dimensions, including on the longitude side of things, lateral and vertical acceleration, and then calculates the vehicle's status. So with all that being said, when it comes to ride quality, it has been 100% on point without a doubt. Definitely a very smooth ride here in the Cayenne. Not as smooth as maybe some of the Mercedes-Benz that I test out, but still a very impressive ride quality when it comes to this thing. As far as steering feel goes, I still have it in sport driving mode. It is instantly pointing me in the direction that I want to go. Definitely a firmer or a heavier steering feel, I guess you could say. So love the steering feel on this thing. And again, it is adjustable, dependent upon the drive mode that you put in. So if you wanted to lose your steering feel, you could just simply take it out of that sport driving mode and it's going to loosen up a little bit for you. But having said that, it's still kind of on the firm side. So I love the steering feel on this thing. As far as cabin noise goes, we are driving right now 32 miles per hour. So you guys could be the judge of that, but really a very isolated cabin without a doubt. So no issues when it comes to this thing, having a very serene cabin, very impressed there, touching on visibility, I can see pretty darn good out the back. So shouldn't have any issues with rear visibility. Also wanted to mention the rain sensing windshield wipers do come standard on the Cayenne as well. And there is a head up display available for $1,720 if you wanted to go that route as well. But that pretty much rounds out the performance segment of this review guys. Let's now go ahead and take a look at the exterior of our brand new 2022 Porsche Cayenne. All right, so here she is you guys, the new 2022 Porsche Cayenne. Definitely a very instantly recognizable look. Let's go ahead and start up front on this one. Tons of ventilation for the, of course, intercooler for the turbocharged six-cylinder engine. Then to the sides, LED headlights do come standard with four-point LED-DATM running lights in typical Porsche fashion now. Automatic feature coming with that, meaning when it starts to get dark in at night, those headlights will turn on automatically for you there. Automatic high beams coming standard. And there's actually LED adaptive lighting available that comes with a premium package. It's called for $6,470. Obviously it includes a lot more than simply just adaptive headlights. But still, it's part of that particular package if you wanted that. Of course, you guys can see front and center there. You do have the adaptive cruise control sensor found in that front grille. Just above that, you actually have the front camera system then as well. And of course, just above that, you have the Porsche Crest, which looks absolutely amazing and really is a feature in itself. Anyway, it's a pretty much rounds out the front end of this one. So now go ahead and make our way to the side. All right, so now since we are around to the side of this one, gloss black windows surrounds do come standard rear privacy glass, also coming standard. Then take a look at their side mirrors. They are body colored power adjustable side mirrors. They are heated with LED integrated turd signals and they are power folding then as well. So that is quite a bit there. Take a look down at the side skirts. Matte black side skirts do come standard on the base Cayenne. So I did want to mention that, but I do like the body colored fender surrounds there. That definitely looks good. Then making our way to the wheel configuration, tons of different wheel options for the Cayenne. 19 inch alloys do come standard, but there are 20 inch, 21 inch and 22 inch sizes available. The particular wheels that we have today are 21 inch RS spider design wheels. They actually added an additional $3,830 to the price if you were interested and they look very much race spec. So I'm a big fan of the design, but anyways that pretty much rounds out the side profile here. So now go ahead and make our way to the back. All right, so now since we are around to the back of this one, first thing I want to mention is there is no shark fin antenna up top. A very clean look. I absolutely love that. So no bulbous design, just sitting on top of the roof out of nowhere. So that is pretty cool. Just below where you would normally find a shark fin antenna, though you do have a rear spoiler with an integrated brake light back there. Do you have a rear window wiper of course as well. You got that Porsche lettering spelled out horizontally. It looks very good. You also have 3D LED tail lights. That is definitely a very nice look as well. You guys can see there's four point LED lighting within the tail lights to match the front headlights as well.  So having said that, I do believe you guys know what we have to do next. As always here is that exhaust clip. All right, so now since we are around to the back of the Cayenne, when it comes to opening that rear tailgate, there is a button on the key fob, but there is of course a button on the tailgate itself as well, but it is a power tailgate. I should also mention that, once it opened up, cargo capacity comes in at 27.2 cubic feet behind that second row. If that was not enough space, there's a 40, 20, 40 split, meaning the rear seats do fold down pretty nicely, bumping that up to 60.3 cubic feet then. Also in the cargo area, you will find some LED cargo lighting. Even luxury manufacturers don't always make that cargo lighting LED. A lot of times it's halogens and it's overlooked, but with the case of the Cayenne, it is LED. So it is definitely appreciative of that. There's actually 12 volt power outlet back there. There is some netted storage then to the sides. There's some cargo tie down anchors finished in chrome as well. And if you were to lift up underneath of that cargo floor, that is where you're actually going to find your spare tire. So then making our way to the rear legroom, that is going to come in at an even 36 inches. So for reference, I'm an even six feet tall. This is how much space I had in those rear seats there. Do want to mention though, for the rear passengers, those rear seats, they actually slide and recline, which you don't always find in other SUVs out there. So that was pretty cool. There is a rear center armrest with cup holders, of course, as well. There is rear ventilation. There's two rear USB-C charging ports. Four-zone climate control is going to be available for an additional $990. If you wanted to let your rear passengers set their own individual temperatures back there, you can actually get heated and ventilated rear seats on this thing as well. That goes for $1,700. So it's an option, another option there. So overall though, I was plenty comfortable in those back seats, I will say that, but then make your way to the front seats, partial leather seats with embossed leather comes standard. Eight-way power driver seat does come standard. Massaging front seats are available for $2,000 if you wanted that. And again, I mentioned that premium package earlier. Premium package actually adds heated front seats and 14-way power adjustable front seats with memory settings for both the driver and the passenger. So even the passenger seat has memory settings for up to three different people. So that is pretty cool. And that's not always the case in other SUVs out there. So again, that's why I'm emphasizing that. But overall, seating was 100% plenty comfortable, so definitely didn't have any issues there. Then taking a look at the steering wheel, it is tilt and telescoping. It is leather wrapped and it can be heated for an additional $280. 10 and two grips were kind of thick, but overall the steering wheel is a little bit on the thinner side of things. So wouldn't mind it if they kind of beefed it up a little bit there. Then make our way to the startup. Let me start by showing you guys the key here. I always love Porsche keys. Essentially all of your buttons are located on the one side. You got your Porsche crest and it's kind of shaped like a Porsche as well. Lock, unlock, and of course that button to pop the rear tailgate there, but it is all keyless entry. So all I'm going to do here is simply put my front of the brake and turn the start knob, which is located just by the driver's left knee. So little bit different than other manufacturers out there, but pretty normal for Porsche. So I do want to emphasize that as well. But anyways, then making our way to the gauges. So this is typical Porsche gauges right here, all the way to your left. Essentially you have two digital gauge clusters, both to the left and the right.  Also going to display what gear you're in if you're manually shifting through the gears up on that portion as well. But all the way to the left, you got your outside temperature.  If you go to the right of those analog gauges, you're going to find how many miles you have left until you hit empty as well as your typical fuel gauge. You can actually set this whole right side on a navigation setup if you wanted to as well. Also going to give you your date, which is pretty cool. You don't always find that on other manufacturers and of course the time of day as well. So I do like the gauges just because they're very specific to Porsche. It's kind of what Porsche's gauges are supposed to look like now at this point, I guess you could say. But now let's go ahead and make our way to overall interior quality. Again, with that premium package, you do get a panoramic roof and actually ambient lighting as well, which is pretty cool. Homeland Controls do come standard. They're actually found on the roof just beside the button to operate the panoramic roof up here for up to three different garage doors. So that's pretty cool. You do have a frameless rear view mirror as well. I liked that. Dual-Zone Climb Control comes standard, but like I said, four-Zone Climb Controls available. Brushed Aluminum Door Sales comes standard. I like that. If you wanted a wireless phone charger, that goes for $690 if you wanted to go that route. But overall, I particularly like our two-toned theme with the lighter color leather and the darker color leather up top here. There's a lot of nice gloss black accents found just above the passenger side glove box as well as on the doors, I like that as well. Nice firm grab handles just on the doors as well as just around the shifter. That's pretty cool. Essentially everything surrounding the shifter is finished in gloss black and it's all a flat surface with working buttons. So essentially it's like my stove top. So it's completely flat. So it's a lot easier to clean than your traditional button setups, I guess you could say. So what's a big fan of that? You got your cayenne etched in just behind the election mechanical parking brake, a little bit of rubberized storage behind that. 12-volt power outlet, dual cup holders and within the center armrest. You actually have a little bit of storage and that is where your wireless phone charger is actually gonna be located as well. And I like the analog clock just above the infotainment screen. That is something Portia has done now for a while. So definitely a nice touch there as well. So interior quality of course is perfectly fine. Now let's go ahead and make our way to that infotainment screen since I mentioned it here. 12.3 inch color touch screen display does come standard. Of course Bluetooth and audio streaming as well. Wireless Apple CarPlay but wired Android Auto. So that's the big change for 2022 because believe it or not for 2021, there was no Android Auto. So one to emphasize that that is definitely very nice. Of course factory navigation system coming standard. You can actually check out your driving dynamics up there as well, which is pretty darn cool. You check out different vehicle statistics. There's some weather information up there as well. That's nice. And of course your radio information. And so the standard sound system is gonna be a 10 speaker high-fi sound system with 150 watts. There are two optional sound systems. One of them is the one we have today being a 14 speaker Bose sound system that goes for $1,200. And then there is a 21 speaker Bermester sound system that goes for $7,000.  So anyways, we do have the Bose sound system with us here today. So what do you guys say? Let's go ahead and turn on the radio. See what we got playing today. And let's test out the clarity of this one. All right, so you got enough bass where you can feel it in your chest there. That was pretty ridiculous. Plenty of clarity. Really the Bose sound system absolutely crushed it for the Cayenne. I'm not sure you would need an upgraded sound system on top of that. Of course, if you're absolutely nuts into music, then yeah, that's fine. But still the Bose sound system absolutely crushes it with this car. And Bose is a very reliable sound system company as well. I've had them in my cars before and definitely never failed me. So big fan of that sound system. But anyways, last thing I wanted to mention to you guys on the infotainment screen is when you do put the Cayenne in reverse, you will find a rear view camera coming stated across the board. But not only that, with the assistance package, it goes for $6,250. You will also get a surround view monitor. That's that view to the left, you guys are looking at right there. That also, by the way, that package for $6,250 also includes a head up display, night vision assist and adaptive cruise control with link keep assist then as well. So quite a bit with that. But anyways, as always that is going to lead us into safety. And so first let me start by saying, Porsche, the way they do things, they don't use US companies to safety test their vehicle. So there's no IIHS anything on this, but I will say in Europe they do. There is a five star crash test rating by the Euro NCAP, which is the very highest rating obviously, but again, not rated here in the US. And that's fine. That's a really good crash test rating. So front side side curtain airbags do come standard driver and passenger knee airbags as well. In the back, you're going to have latch, AKA lower anchors and tethers to children for the rear car seats, rear child door locks, tire pressure monitoring system. And then also coming standard will be front and rear parking sensors as well. So overall when it comes to my final thoughts here of the Cayenne, legendary name, great safety on this thing and absolutely amazing performance. A lot of people say Mazda is the best driving SUVs available, but I would say if you could afford it 100% without a doubt, Porsche crushes Mazda. The driving dynamics on this thing are absolutely amazing. The braking feel is wonderful. It instantly brings you to a stop. The steering feel is great. The acceleration is plenty respectable for the Porsche name. The paddle shifters are lightning quick as well. So really, if you're looking for performance in an SUV, I'm not sure you can beat a Porsche, whether that be the Cayenne or the Macan. So this thing is absolutely amazing when it comes to there. The only room for improvement I can really think of with the Cayenne is the options available. There are so many different options. So while you can take a base Cayenne for 72, you can easily push that over 100,000 with all the different options available on this thing. But anyways, let me know what you guys think of the Cayenne in the comments section below. That is about it for this one, you guys. Thank you so much for watching. Feel free to follow me on social media at the bottom of the screen. If you wanted to see what's coming next on the channel before it gets to YouTube, be sure to hit the subscribe and the bell notification button if you're into new car reviews. That is what we do here on this channel after all. Do appreciate you guys watching more than you know and I will see you guys all in the next video. Stay Gold.


I'm Jamil Jaffer. I'm a lawyer for the ACLU and I'm up here with Bill Binney, Alex Ubdo and Jim Bamford who I will introduce more fully in just a second. I'm not sure how many of you got a chance to hear Keith Alexander yesterday, the head of the NSA, talk about the NSA's activities. I wasn't there myself but I have heard that he offered a few reassurances. One of them, apparently, was that the NSA is not in fact keeping a file on every American. I'm just reporting, all right? The second reassurance he offered is that when the NSA incidentally or inadvertently collects information about Americans, it's required by law to minimize that information, meaning it's required by law to delete it or to redact it. And the third thing he said is that the NSA's activities, and I think this is in some ways the most reassuring thing, the NSA's activities are fully consistent with the Constitution and with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which is the statute that governs the NSA's activities inside the United States. So the question I want to ask is why is it that the head of the NSA feels obliged to offer those kinds of reassurances right now? I think there are a few reasons. One reason is that the NSA just has much, much more power today than it has ever before. That's because of technological advances. It's also because of social behavior. We just share a lot more information electronically than we have in the past. And it's also, and this is perhaps less known because the law is so much weaker now than it was even 10 years ago. Over the last decade, the laws that govern the NSA's activities have been weakened repeatedly in 2001, in 2005, in 2008. And as a result, the NSA really operates without a leash right now. The people that I'm up here with today are perhaps the best people in the country to explain precisely what that means. One of them is Bill Binney who was with the NSA for more than 30 years. He left the NSA in October of 2001. When he was at the NSA he was working on the very issues that we'll be talking about today. Alex Abdo next to him is a colleague of mine at the ACLU. He's a staff attorney who works on surveillance issues, especially in the national security context, including a case that's before the Supreme Court right now involving a challenge to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. And then Jim Bamford, who many of you already know, is the nation's leading expert on the NSA. He's written many books about it, many articles about it. Among his books are the Puzzle Palace, the Shadow Factory, and The Body of Secrets. So with that brief introduction, let me ask Jim first, putting aside the legal issues, putting aside the legal restraints on the NSA, what is it that the NSA can do right now? What is it that the NSA is technologically capable of doing? And how is that different from what the NSA was technologically capable of doing, say 10 years ago? First, I just want to say I'm really happy to be here. And I was here 10 years ago and it's really grown. Defconn's really grown since then, so I'm really happy to see that. The other thing is General Alexander asked me to fill in a few blanks that he left when he was speaking here. And I said, be very happy to do that. I've been talking about NSA since he was a private, I think.  So what can NSA do today that it couldn't do 10 years ago? Well, first of all, pre-9-11, NSA was following the law to a large degree. Basically, since the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was passed back around 1978. But that all changed after 9-11 and that's when George Bush decided to do the warrantless eavesdropping. So since then, NSA has had an enormous building boom, like nothing in its history. Billions and billions of dollars of new buildings, new infrastructure, new listening posts, built of new listening posts. Some of these are reconstruction of existing listening posts, but a giant listening post, actually largest in the world, outside of Augusta, Georgia. It will have 4,000 positions, 4,000 eavesdropping positions. And another one in Texas and then there's a downlink in Colorado for NSA's satellite information and then another one in Hawaii. But the high point of NSA's building boom is a building I just wrote about in the April issue of Wired Magazine, the cover story of Wired Magazine on NSA's enormous data center in Utah, Bluffdale, Utah. Ironically, the only other thing in Bluffdale, Utah is the second largest polygamy sect in the United States. So you've got both groups there listening for messages from the heavens. So it'd be interesting to watch these two groups socialize together. But NSA's building this huge data center now in Utah that'll be a million square feet and cost $2 billion so they can store, it'll be the central place for storage for virtually all the information that they collect. It's basically going to be their cloud so that all the listening posts, all the analytical positions, the headquarters and so forth will be able to go in and come out, take stuff in, pull stuff out, analyze it from their distant locations. And the other thing is this huge supercomputer center they're building down in Utah, I mean down in Tennessee, Oak Ridge, Tennessee, the place, Secret City where they worked on the atomic bomb in World War II. And now they're working on basically the computer equivalent of the atomic bomb, a computer that is into the petaflops in terms of speed now. And they're building another building down there now that will be able to get into the exoflops, which I've got a statistic here, I'll read later on how fast that really is. But it's very fast. And then maybe on to Yoda flops or whatever. So that's pretty much where NSA is right now. It's this enormous building boom, enormous storage capacity for all the new communications that are going to be intercepting and a new supercomputer center for attacking encryption, maybe even public key encryption or other kinds of encryption, although it's hard to say exactly what they're going to be using that center down in Tennessee for right now. So Bill, how do you reconcile, is there some way to reconcile General Alexander's statement that the NSA isn't keeping track of every American with the existence of a facility like the one in Utah? Well, first of all, I'd like to say first of all that his statement about not keeping track of every American is absolutely true. He missed a few. Not many, but he missed a few. Okay. But that's the kind of word game they play. I've been in that business for a long time, so I knew their word game. But there's absolutely no excuse for him even implying that he's not collecting all this data. I mean, it's not just for processing after linear recursives or things like that. It's actually storing information that they're collecting, which is emails, FTPs, those kinds of things, Twitter things and all kinds of data about everybody. And what they're doing then with that is of course indexing it in a B plus tree kind of index where they take attributes where that describes the communicants involved or label zoo. And then you build social networks for everybody out of that by doing indexing with B plus trees. And there's virtually no limit that I know of that you can do in indexing that way. You can do trillions of relationships and still be able to manage it. On a very large scale, including interrogating into that base to do make decisions against flowing data that you're looking at, like terabytes of data flowing by. But the problem is unless you know what to do to begin with, you can't tell the program how to execute the rules or what to make decisions to make at every step along the way. And that's really where they have a problem. It is in the ability to automate analysis of large data sets and large sets of information to make decisions as that data is passing by. Or to go into large bases that they've stored like they will be storing in Utah, but they have other storage facilities too. I mean, Utah's could probably store, I did some calculations on it. I didn't include this in the EFF article that I, or the affidavit that I signed earlier. But if you, if you looked at it, even if you take the current capabilities that's being advertised online at cleversafe.com, they have 10 exabytes of storage that they can put into 21 racks of equipment that occupies 200 square feet of space. Well, if you take the 100,000 square feet they're going to have at Bluffdale and divide it by 200 and then multiply that by 10, you get 5,000 exabytes that they can store there. Well, I mean, that's a, I mean, in order, if you had 100 years of communications of everybody stored there to maintain 100 years that is replacing every year, you're collecting a year, a year falls off the end, you know, you keep the latest 100 years online in Bluffdale, it would take 1,250 NARIS devices to do that. Now, that's, NARIS device will do 10 gigabits a second which means it could process and produce output and give you a display of say a million and a quarter, 1,000 character emails a second. So it will take 1,250 of them running full time, all the time to keep that last 100 years online. So that's an awful lot of processing just to fill that one storage site. That is not the only storage site they have by any way, by the way. They have a lot of others that's just planned to take the overflow that's coming out the next year or so. So up till then, I see, I don't see, I see him saying things that are verbally or by the word are correct but he's missing the basic, you know, the reason I left NSA was because they started spying on everybody in the country. That's the reason I left. NSA's charter and it was illegitimate, one was to do foreign intelligence and I was with that all the way and I did the best I could in that job. Unfortunately they took those programs that I built and turned them on you and I'm sorry for that. I didn't intend that but they did that. So Alex, is this, is this a problem with the law? Is the problem that the law is not sufficiently restrictive or is the problem that the NSA is violating the law? I think it's quite clearly both. You know, after 9-11, we saw excesses of the Bush administration that we never would have guessed would happen. We saw the executive simply ignoring statutes, engaging in warrantless surveillance. And, you know, for the centuries before that the key protection of the Constitution was that when the government wants to surveil Americans that do so with judicial approval after making its case to a court. And that was abandoned by the Bush administration. But that was just, you know, one instance of extreme violation of the law but then Congress essentially codified that in 2008 when it authorized the government to engage in domestic, dragnet surveillance of Americans' international communications. And so what we have now is an institutionalization of the law breaking that occurred after 9-11 with the result being that the key legal protection that has protected us since the enactment of the Bill of Rights is no longer in place with respect to our communication. So we can't be sure, you know, that the law is protecting us. We can be quite sure actually that it's not protecting us. But even putting aside what happened after 9-11 with the violations that are now well known and exposed, there have been countless others that we don't know about. We know we have hints and suggestions from documents that we've gotten through FOIA, through leaks to the press, through the great work of Jim and through what we've learned from Bill and a few of his other colleagues at the NSA who defected. We know that there have been other violations but what you didn't hear in General Alexander's speech is any explanation of those. Any provision of the transparency that is so sorely needed. We have those hints in the documents and when we have even a new one coming out of Congress just a week ago about the NSA violating the Constitution and its use of its latest surveillance authority. But we don't know in what ways exactly. We don't know how often and we don't know with what effect. You know, if you're a lawyer and you work on these kinds of issues, the difficult thing here is you've got this set of laws, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act principally, that lay out what seem like pretty clear restrictions on what the NSA can do. For example, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act says that in most instances when the NSA wants to essentially wiretap somebody inside the country, they need to get something called Foreign Intelligence Probable Cause, some version of Probable Cause. But what you guys are describing, Jim and Bill, and what is described in a lot of newspaper articles that have come out over the last few years is something that seems wholly inconsistent with those restrictions. And I'm trying to figure out, is that just because the NSA doesn't care at all about the law or is it because the NSA can manipulate laws that are poorly understood by the public? Is it that they're playing word games? Is it some combination of all of these things? Because what you're describing really is hard to reconcile with the laws as the laws are generally understood by the lawyers who work with them. Well, one, I think I'm noticing looking at a lot of documents I've gotten from the Freedom of Information Act and so forth and writing about NSA.  There's the FISA Act, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and there's a FISA amendments act. But then there's another thing. That's just the congressional, that's the statute. Then there's an implementing, a set of implementing instructions and they're known as USID 18, United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18, which is top secret with about a dozen code words after it. And that sets out different, for example, sets out different definitions from what most people are familiar with. Most people are familiar with the Webster's definition of intercept. So speaking of General Alexander, speaking about intercept, you have your own impression of what that word means from your history and from reading dictionaries definition. But the USID 18 has a different definition and that's an intercept doesn't take place until it's actually listened to, until somebody puts on some earphones or actually reads some text on a screen. So you can pull in all the communications you want stored in a media and stored for as long as you want in Bluffdale, for example, in Utah. So there's these definitional differences between what civilians talk about and what NSA talks about. And then there's different sets of laws and regulations, most of which are top secret. So that's sort of this miss that you have to look through, this fog you have to look through when you're dealing with the legal issues with NSA. Well, as far as I could see, the real plan here was to spy on Americans because it didn't start in October of 2001. It actually started before that in February when certain people like three star generals from NSA went around asking different telecoms to provide them customer data. That happened in February of 2001. So that to me implied the plan was to spy on Americans from the beginning. Because at that point, that was three months after they were doing that three months after we had put our system together where it worked all the way to the end and you could manage graphing huge numbers of things, trillions of things. So once we had shown that we were connected all the way, three months later they went around asking for this data to spy on every American. So that to me seemed to be the intent from the beginning. But I mean, they didn't openly say that. Okay. But they were going around asking for the data to make that happen. And then 9-11 came along and that was a good excuse to execute. Okay. At that point, the execution started. So, and there is another real problem. Unfortunately the software will, once it takes in data, it will build profiles on everybody in that data. And if you want that profile, you can simply call it up by the attributes of anyone you want. So in other words, the process does so much analysis already. And it's in place for people to look at if they want to do it. But what they're trying to do now is they realize they have too much data. So they have to automate that process too. So that's what the big data initiative is really all about. Out of the White House, the recent initiative is to try to get automated processes to go through that because they can't hire enough people to do it. There's just too much data. Okay. So that's not possible. So they've got to get an automated process doing that. And this to me was the intent from the beginning. And to do that inside this country, it was obvious from what they're doing, the sequence that they were doing, that that was the case. And the law they didn't pay any attention to. So just to channel General Alexander again, you know, the law requires the government to minimize data about Americans once it's acquired it. So why isn't that a sufficient protection? Why shouldn't we be reassured by General Alexander's statement that minimization requirements protect Americans from precisely what you're complaining about now? Because all the oversight is totally dependent on what NSA tells them. They have no way of knowing what they're really doing unless they're told. So plus I would add a simple little point. We put in protection for U.S. citizens by doing a unique anonymization that we would encrypt attributes of U.S. citizens. So you couldn't tell who you were looking at, even if you had it in your base. So but you have to ask yourself, how could I do that from the beat? How could I do that with the databases they have unless it was in already there in the clear and so I could encrypt it? Alex, I know that that, you know, one of the complaints you have sometimes made about the existing FISA is the weakness of the minimization requirements. I'm going to say a little bit about that. Sure, you know, the legal problem with the minimization requirement is just that it has a gaping hole which swallows the rule, which is that if the information is essentially what the NSA wants anyway, if it pertains to foreign intelligence, which is defined extremely broadly, then the NSA doesn't have to get rid of that information. They can continue to keep it in their database. But we've learned something else that's actually quite interesting in the past few weeks from a few senators who've been very vocal in their objections to reauthorizing the latest surveillance statute at the end of the year, which is that even supposing they have information in their database that they're not supposed to or not supposed to target from the outset. They can then keep it in their database and target after the fact by going back and conducting data mining searches afterward, in other words, to get the information that they couldn't target from the outset. And it sounds like a minor loophole but it's one that a few senators think is the key to the entire program, that the NSA isn't concerned so much with using its authorities to target foreigners, but that they're using it as an excuse to accumulate masses of information that they can then later search under the legal theory that Jim laid out that the search doesn't happen until they run the query later on. It's not the acquisition isn't the search, the querying later on is the search. So and of course what's troubling about all this aside from what's obvious is that the secrecy that pervades the program makes it impossible to know whether any of these speculations are true. We obviously have the experience of Bill and Jim to flesh out these theories, but so little is really known about how the NSA actually interprets its statute, how it interprets its authority and how it's using those authorities. One thing is in terms of the internal controls it's really two, one is the general counsel's office and the other is the inspector general's office. And just to give you an example of how effective those organizations are during the period of the war on the sea is dropping during the Bush period. When it was decided that we were going to go into warrantless these dropping when it was decided by the administration that the NSA was going to do warrantless these dropping. They refused to allow the general counsel's office or the inspector general's office to look at the legal justification for doing this. Even though at one point a couple times NSA said we'd like to see what the legal authority is for us doing this. The Bush Justice Department said you're not clear to know the reasons that you have to do this. And General Hayden at the time just saluted smartly and turned on the bugs. So, you know, you have to really wonder what the usefulnesses of some of these internal organizations are. Somebody from the higher up in the administration could just say it's none of your business and you're not clear to know. What is there? Why do they want to do it? Why do they want to do it? Why do they want to surveil? That's their job. That's what they do. That's what they were born to do and that's what they like doing. That's their job. They surveil the eavesdropping is what they're charged to do. You don't see very many people except for Bill. There were only Bill or a couple other people associated with Bill that actually said, wait a minute, I'm not going to do this. I'm opting out. You know, it's time for me to look at the agency from the outside in. So basically whatever people at NSA are told to do, they do. So you have that period during the war unless eavesdropping. Now not everybody at NSA knew that they were involved in warrantless eavesdropping. I shouldn't make that clear. That was a very compartmented program. But after it was revealed, there were very few people that objected and left the agency. So NSA's job is eavesdropping. Their original charter is eavesdropping on foreign countries and foreign people in foreign countries which there is no legal problem with because they don't have any constitutional protections. The problem is when NSA is told to eavesdrop domestically and this wasn't the first time. Nixon during his time told NSA to start eavesdropping domestically and it did it for about a week. And NSA was very happy. They were overjoyed that they were being given that opportunity to eavesdrop domestically on anti-war protesters. It only stopped because this big civil libertarian named J.G. Hoover came in and said I'm going to blow the whistle if NSA keeps doing this. He told that to Nixon primarily because he saw NSA is stepping on FBI's turf. And so a week later Nixon canceled the program. But there's a willingness at NSA, there was a willingness then, there was a willingness during the Bush administration to salute smartly and say, you know, turn on the microphones when they're ordered to do that by senior officials in the administration. You know I just want to say something about the distinction between targeting people inside the United States and targeting people outside because you know it's true that there is this sort of obvious distinction between those two categories of surveillance but one of the things that's going on now is that the NSA is, it's engaged in dragnet surveillance of people outside the country. And they say that they can do this because those people outside the country don't have constitutional rights to assert. The problem is, from a constitutional perspective, the problem is that when they're surveilling those people outside the country, often those people outside the country are communicating with people inside the country. And so the NSA is sweeping up these huge volumes of communications between Americans inside the United States and non-Americans outside the United States. And those huge volumes of communications are going into these databases including these Utah databases. And the problem that Alex was alluding to that Senator Wyden has been harping on for the last few weeks is that once all the information has been collected on the theory that it was collected in the course of surveillance of people abroad who don't have constitutional rights, all of that information sits in a database here and then can be searched even if the NSA is concerned not about some foreigner living abroad but about some American living here. And from, you know, there are lots of reasons to be worried about NSA surveillance even of non-Americans living abroad. But, you know, even if your only concern is about NSA surveillance of Americans inside the United States, this is, as Alex says, you know, a really huge loophole in the legal protection. So one other point also is that the, when you're thinking of targeting overseas and not targeting U.S. citizens, it sounds fairly innocent but one thing you can target for example would be the overseas data, or call centers. You know, all these call centers they have in India, Philippines and different places now, all these companies from AT&T to American Express, Bank of America, all these companies are outsourcing their, when people call up and want to know what their balance is in their banking account for example, it might be answered by a calling center in India. Well, you can target the calling center in India because it's a center outside the United States. It's foreigners that run it outside the United States and you're not specifically targeting any American within that call center but everything going in, if I call up and say what's the balance of my banking account or a question about some financing that I'm doing, that's picked up and would also go to Bluffdale because it's not being specifically targeted against me but it's being targeted against an overseas call center so that's sort of a loophole. So I want to ask the question that we started to talk about a minute ago but ask it more directly. So why aren't more, you know, if this kind of thing is going on at the NSA, why aren't more people speaking out about it? Well I think the point is they're all been pretty much scared by what they did to us. They threatened us with prosecution. They tried to prosecute Tom Drake and they basically made our lives a mess. They made us incapable of getting business so but that kind of thing is the power that they have. They can harass you in many different ways and so they tried doing that with us and so every and they advertised that by the way internally in NSA on their internet inside the NSA. They put our 60 minutes take on their video internally and they made it clear what they were doing to us internally so the whole idea was to scare the entire population internally and that's really what's happening with our government the way I see it. You know Ronald Reagan said we're a country with a government. I think we're reversing that relationship. Our country is now thinking, our government now thinks it has a country and the only way to maintain it but see the only way to really maintain that is to like all these other totalitarian states have done around the world. You have to gather information about your population so you can control it and that's really what's driving all of this. They're afraid of the population of the United States. They want a country, this country. That's really in my view what they're doing and why. So I had this. I want to save a little time for questions where I have at least one more question. This one for you Alex. I mentioned at the beginning that there's a case before the Supreme Court this fall. What's at stake in that case? This is our ACLU lawsuit on behalf of a number of human rights groups, journalists, activists challenging the latest surveillance statute, the statute in 2008 that really shifted the paradigm from individualized surveillance to drag net surveillance. And unfortunately for the past four years we haven't been litigating in court about whether the law is constitutional or not. We've been litigating about whether our plaintiffs have standing to challenge the law. Whether they can file the lawsuit to begin with. And what's discouraging about the suit is that the government's argument all along has been our plaintiffs can't sue because they can't prove that they were surveilled. But of course we the NSA would never disclose whether anyone in particular is surveilled. And the consequences of that argument should be obvious there that no one can challenge the law. So even if you're not concerned about the extent of the NSA's authorities you should I think perhaps be concerned that not even the government wants there to be constitutional review of these laws. They don't want anyone in court discussing them let alone in public or in Congress. They don't want courts reviewing these laws to establish meaningful limits if there are limits to establish or even to say if the government is correct and the laws are constitutional which they're not. So that's what's at stake in this lawsuit is whether this statute can be challenged but it's not just this statute. There are numerous surveillance authorities that not only the NSA has but other agencies use on a daily basis to intercept our communications or to gather intelligence. And if this suit is turned away by the Supreme Court then I worry that there'll be little opportunity to flesh out the constitutionality or the limits of the law in this area. And without those limits we know what happens. And if not for you know a few intrepid whistleblowers we wouldn't know about what happened after 9-11. That wasn't the success of the rule of law in this country. That wasn't the result of a lawsuit that brought that about. That was luck. And we can't rely on that forever. We're a system of checks and balances for a reason but those checks and balances are not working in this area. Just one point also. I was actually one of the plaintiffs along with Christopher Hitchens and a few other people of the original suit dropped by ACLU. We were among the people that was identified as not being able to show that we have standing. We weren't able to show that we were physically eavesdropped on because NSA doesn't tell you who it eavesdropped on so they threw our case out. And that's what this case is going forward with now which I'm very happy about. The problem with the case however is that even if the case is successful in the Supreme Court the government has this ultimate way to turn the switch and end the case. It's called the State Secrets Act which is used a number of times against cases where it looks like it's either going to lose or it may end up exposing government secrets. And that's one of the problems you have here is that even if the courts accept the argument and find in favor of the ACLU the problem is that at one point at some point the government may flip the switch, turn the off switch off and use its ultimate weapon which is the State Secrets Act. Yeah, this is maybe worth underscoring. The secrecy surrounding all of this surveillance obviously prevents us from knowing the full extent to which the government is spying on Americans. You know, we don't know in what instances and what context they are getting location information for example. We don't know who in what context specifically they are getting content information from emails and we don't know in what context they get purely domestic telephone calls. So all of this is shrouded in secrecy but perhaps even more troubling than that is that the secrecy insulates all of these surveillance powers from judicial oversight. So you've got all of these statutes that look like laws in the sense that they are enacted by Congress and nominally subject to constitutional limits but it's literally or has been literally impossible to enforce those constitutional limits because the government has all of these procedural objections that have in many cases been successful. One of them is standing, the one that Alex was talking about and another is State Secrets, the one that Jim was talking about. So if you have... I mentioned State Secrets Act, that was a mistake. It's not an act, it's called the State Secrets Privilege because there's never been anything enacted allowing them to do it. They just do it and get away with it. So they don't have any basis in law for that privilege. If you have questions just come up to the mic up here. Yeah, Kim Seder with WIRED. I have a question about Alexander State Minister. I wonder if you can clarify. He said that when talking about the minimization, he said that minimization means, which means nobody else can see it unless there's a crime that's been committed. That to me sounds like we're not talking about national security. What's the legal basis for that? So the question was, does minimization mean that you, that the NSA can't look at the communications unless there's evidence of a crime? And that's simply not true. That's not what the requirement is. You can go and read it if you want. Come up, I'll send you a link to it later. The requirement, that's one of the problems with the dragnet surveillance since 2008 is that it doesn't have to be tied to wrongdoing. It just has to be tied to foreign intelligence, which can mean a lot of things. It can mean a human rights advocate talking to an embassy abroad. It can mean anything relating to the foreign affairs. But is there a legal basis for collecting data under national security reasons and then seeing criminal activity in it for use domestic prosecution? Is there, is there a legal, what's the legal basis for that? Because that's what it sounds like he's talking about here. It doesn't sound like he's talking about national security. I think what he's saying is that once we've collected something for foreign intelligence reasons we can use it to prosecute people for crimes. And that's certainly true. But it's also true that they don't have to minimize information that falls into this very broad category of foreign intelligence information. And so whatever protections apply to, you know, whatever minimization protections apply, that those protections don't apply to this very broad category of information about foreign affairs, about the economy, about national security, about terrorism.  The law gives the NSA the authority to listen to that communication. And if General Alexander said something different yesterday, I think he misspoke. Softly generous of you, Jamil. My question is for Bill and Jim, but anybody else can address it if you so desire. I'm often struck by how little anyone in Congress really besides Ron Wyden is willing to challenge any of this. There's almost near, you know, silence or agreement with the government's arguments about state secrets and, you know, wiretapping in the FICE Amendment Act passed in 2008. Obama voted for it. So my question is, you know, we talk a lot about surveillance in this world. We don't talk very much about blackmail. And I don't really get why. Because it seems to me that, you know, there are 535 people in the house and the Senate who could affect some change in this regard, right, ostensibly they have power over the NSA. And they don't.  So thanks. Let me take that. I think there's a couple of factors involved here. One is that NSA produces an awful lot of intelligence for the U.S. government on a very large scale. Most of it is coming from NSA. In fact, for all of the government. So they look at them as a source of input of intelligence on decisions they may have to make. So they look at them as a valuable resource. But NSA also looks at Congress as a way of getting money. And they really, they focus in on preparing stories which I refer to as Techno Babel, you know. They go down and bamboozle Congress. And Congress can't challenge them because they don't know any better. Okay. You have congressional people down there who don't know what, not necessarily some of them don't even know what an email, some of them still don't email. So they aren't technically swift. Okay. So these guys go down there and bamboozle them. And you can see some of that in that testimony that happens in the various committees there. You can see that. So they get bamboozled that way. But also from the congressional perspective, they look at NSA as all these different buildings they're putting around the country are going into somebody's area, right? And so there's money going there and they have that means that they're supporting their constituents and therefore they feel they have to support them. And so they let them do basically what they want them, they want to, whatever they want to do, they say it's okay because there are intelligence resources in the government. So those are the kind of factors I think that are involved in that. Well, yeah, it's great with the, with the person who asked the question, it's changed a great deal from the beginning back in the mid-seventies when you had the first House and Senate Intelligence Committees, you had Frank Church who was a very, very much going after NSA. He had the first real hearings that for the first time exposed what NSA was doing and had been spying illegally for 30 years at that point until Frank Church and his committee found out about it. That's what created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. And what you had, that was at the beginning. Now you have the opposite. At the beginning they were watchdogs and now they're lap dogs. All they do is salute smartly and do whatever the intelligence community wants. Actually, they're gone beyond that now where they actually suggest to the intelligence community that they should be doing more and so forth. And I think one of the reasons for that is that, especially post-911, it's this whole idea in Congress that your opponent the next time up is going to say, you're weak on terrorism, you're weak on defense, you're weak on U.S. security. If you vote against anything that NSA wants or really that the Pentagon wants. So you've got that factor that the Congress is very much afraid of constituent reaction if they look hostile to anything that has the word terrorism in it. But there would be more Ron Wyden's if the Civil Liberties constituency were louder. If more people wore Sue the Vaster's T-shirts. Hi, I'm Corey Doctorow and I write about this stuff a lot. And the question that occurred to me when you were speaking earlier is the one that someone shouted out from the audience. Why? And the answer you gave made it sound like there's someone sort of at the, there's an upper echelon at the NSA who eavesdrop on people the way ants build hills. That it's just sort of a compulsion like if they weren't doing this they'd be hand washing or something. And then it sounded like you said maybe no the reason that they're doing this is that it's just a way of building an empire and if they could build an empire by pasteurizing milk they'd be out there pasteurizing milk instead of listening to people's conversations.  Is it merely compulsion? Is it merely empire building? Do they have a theory about what they're going to get? And as a kind of end to that, as a Canadian who lives in the United Kingdom, can someone explain to me why eavesdropping on me is okay but not okay for Americans? And maybe explain how that relates to the answer to why people harvest all this communication on Americans. Thank you. First of all, there are treaties with different between countries that we don't spy on each other's people. So that does. Those do exist. So I know. It's hard to believe. But right now I don't think any of that really applies. They're taking in everything without minimization. They don't minimize anything as far as I know. Everything's being taken in. And part of it's a fear. I think that they're afraid of not having the data so they couldn't figure out something out. Or if they pull all the data in and eventually they'll figure something out and be able to go back and resolve the issues in retrospect. So I think there's several drivers there. But my real point is this is much larger. It has to do with the government that's virtually implanted in Washington. People don't get, I mean that's why I'm for term limits, right? These people don't rotate. So they stick down there and they think they know better, okay? And so now that's why I said I think we have a government that thinks it has a country. But it seems conceivable to me that with the right analytical tools, it's true that if you collect more information you're more likely to find something. But it's true in the same way that it's true that if you searched everybody's home inside the United States you would find more than you do right now. But ultimately there are value, there are trade-offs that we make. We make decisions about the limits we want to place on government power because we want to be not just safe but also free. And ultimately this question of would we be safer or will we know more if they collect more information? I think it's an interesting and useful question. I think people should ask that question but it doesn't answer the ultimate question which is do we want those policies? And to answer that question it's not susceptible to an empirical study. You have to make value judgments and you know for the same reasons that we don't think it makes sense for the government to search everybody's home without a warrant. We don't think it makes sense for them to collect everybody's communications without a warrant. I would like to add just one thing there. Technically that is for all the programs that we had and everything we ever did. There was absolutely no reason to collect all U.S. citizens communications at all. We could have determined all the bad guys inside and outside this country without doing any of that. And we could have done it legitimately, legally and conformance with FISA, the constitution and everything. But they chose to go down the dark side. Unfortunately we're getting kicked out of this room. But we have another, we have a Q&A room. It's called Track 2 Q&A and we'll be there for at least a few minutes right after this. Sorry Jim. Thanks for coming.