chair weeks we're good to get started whenever you are thank you I'd like to call the meeting to order and ask the recording secretary for roll call it is 430 and can we do roll call Commissioner Carter your Commissioner Cisco your Commissioner Holton here Commissioner Peterson here Commissioner Sanders here Vice Chair Duggan is absent chair weeks here let the record reflect that all commissioners are present with the exception of Vice Chair Duggan thank you and with that item 2 approval of minutes we don't have any minutes today so then we'll move on to public comment this is on non-agenda matters so we're taking public comments on item 3 as I said non-agenda matters this is the time when any person may address the Commission on matters not listed on this agenda but which are within the subject matter jurisdiction of the Commission so if you'd like to see if you are in the council chambers and would like to speak go to either one of the podiums up there and state please state your name for the record is my con yes okay can I use overhead that's a work yes give me one second not getting an apology is give me one second there we go my name's Cliff Wiggum I'm one of the property owners in the Roberts district that was named Roberts district as part of the downtown stationary specific plan this is a zoning map for part of the DS ASP I would like to point out the positioning of the Roberts district it's the south of one of Highway 12 and it has a zoning of a 6.0 floor area ratio and across a freeway in Wally Farms is a 2.0 floor area ratio and we are on the south side which is part of Southwest and Roseland and we're burdened with the 6.0 floor area ratio this map better illustrates it that we are obviously part of Roseland in Southwest and there's a four lane elevated solid earth freeway between us and railroad square that's a pretty significant barrier and we are burdened with the zoning however as part of the downtown and hence infrastructure financing district we have been removed from the infrastructure financing district and do not receive any of the benefits this is a excerpt from the staff report which reads Roberts Road area south of Highway 12 and west of 101 this area is better aligned with the potential future Roseland area EIFD since it is the east anchor of the Bastral Road corridor this corridor is a central Roseland axis in the past has been part of the Roseland study area publicly desired infrastructure upgrades in the Roberts Road area as part of the EIFD formation process should be examined holistically within the rest of that corridor this is language stating that the Roberts district is not part of railroad square but is part of Roseland no developer that I've talked to will give me documentation that they can't build it a six point of floor area ratio they just plain don't respond when I send them the information they verbally tell me that they can't build at that density in the southwest which is a area that is very depressed and needs affordable housing this area should have affordable housing the Roberts district is ready to go I completed the environmental assessments I have the completed phase one and two reports on file it's ready to be developed and the city rezoned the property to this six point of six weeks after we completed the environmental assessments I had developers lined up to come now they all walked away I having having trouble finding documentation that any developer will give me in writing they don't want to do it they just refuse to answer or reply or they'll verbally tell me they can't do it but it doesn't happen your three minutes are up okay thank you thank you any other public comments on non-agended items if they can go to the podium and a timer will be set for three minutes yes good evening my name is Dave Zedrick and I own a property actually in cliffs area he is representing me on our property and we've been there my wife and I now 49 years we've worked hard all the time but for the last five six years we've been losing tenants and we're wanting to retire and wrap up and move on with our lives I'm turned 80 this year and my wife is 79 fortunately and semi-good health the assumptions if the city staff were to agree to reducing the floor area ratio to a 2.0 to a from a 6.0 standard and I didn't catch all of Cliff's comments but building costs would be much less expensive you therefore more affordable for buyers it is estimated that 60 units per acre can be built on our 1.7 acres at that 2.0 far the potential buyers for our property will likely be much easier to find if the project is modified to be built at that 2.0 far standard we are wanting we we need to retire we need to move on with our lives and we've been trying to sell the property for well over 10 years now and the I don't know what else to say other than it's ready to go we just need the support from the city the city has us at a 6.0 far scale we're in Rosalind we're not in downtown Santa Rosa we're located on Sebastopol Road straight three blocks down you're at the former lucky's food store we can't get out the back way to go to downtown unless you go on the bike path which is somewhat dangerous now and then otherwise you go back to the two end block streets and come around that way it's not a convenient for people who don't have cars and whatnot for normal use the we are anxious to move forward and that's basically all I can say at the moment thank you very much for your time thank you anybody else in the council chamber for public comments on items that are not on the agenda and once again to remind you these are items that are not on the agenda tonight and you could state your name for the record please my name is Ricky Scowl SCHOW my comments are regarding your sidewalks as you can see I'm a paraplegic you guys care more about your trees than you do the safety of the people especially disability people for example four years ago over by Sam's market on Tupper I fell and broke the small bone that I have left in my amputated leg over by McDonald's on mission there's a two-inch gap between the sidewalks you go through the city I came down 2nd Street excuse me down 3rd Street to get here I counted 20 and no exaggeration 20 different spots where they needed fixed you were at rather keep the trees than not fix the sidewalks it's ludicrous this is the only city that I've ever heard of I love born and raised in Southern California and it's the only city I've ever heard that you need to permit to take it down I mean especially if it's on private property I mean if it's raised in the sidewalk something needs to be done and you guys don't give a damn excuse my branch but you don't care at all about our safety it's it's insane and I would challenge any one of you to take this scooter right here out for a half hour and see what it's like I know you won't take the challenge but I would challenge any one of you because if you take the challenge it shows me what kinds of people you are thank you very much thank you anybody else like to make public comment on items that are not on the agenda do we have anybody in zoom if you're participating via zoom and wish to make a public comment on non-agenda matters please raise your hand cheer weeks there are no hands raised at this time and just a heads up we do have about five people from the public participating today thank you so with that I'll go ahead and close the public comment period on non-agenda matters and with that we'll move on to item four which is the Commission business and I'll start by reading our statement of purpose the Planning Commission is charged with carrying out the California planning and zoning laws within the City of Santa Rosa duties include implementation of plans ordinances and policies relating to land use matters assisting in writing and implementing the general plan and area plans holding public hearings and acting on proposed changes to the zoning code zoning map general plan tentative subdivision maps and undertaking special planning studies as needed with that we'll move to the commissioner reports are there any reports by my fellow commissioners commissioners disco yeah I would just like to advise the commission that I had the privilege today of attending the Caritas homes phase one grand opening chair weeks was there and commissioner Sanders was there for the ceremony we had the opportunity to view some of the rooms and I mean it's just a lovely space and the rooms are like amazing just amazing as part of the ceremony we heard a lot about the difficulties of putting together the kind of financing required and the multiple places that they had to seek financing in order to get this thing billed and it's really an amazing feat between you know our housing authority state funds etc so it was it was very educational and informative the phase one has about 64 units 30 of which will be permanent supportive housing so those that live in those 30 units won't be moving and they'll be subsidized to stay there phase two will be another 64 units and another 30 of that same type so it's a pretty it's it's an amazing feat that Burbank housing and Caritas has been able to pull off so it was a privilege to be there thank you commissioner Sanders I'd like to echo what commissioner Cisco said it was a really lovely event today I was there and the building is amazing so it's it's definitely an asset for Santa Rosa I'm on the waterways advisory committee and we had a great report given to us about the general plan 2050 overview which was fantastic when I'm really impressed by and we all should be very happy with is the amount of effort that staff put into making sure community was involved in this process it's really impressive the work that they've done evidenced by this coloring book which is really fantastic what what Amy Lyle said and we're gonna miss Amy Lyle because she's moving on to a new adventure and we'll be welcoming sharing me but what she communicated was that well we're coming up with goals for our town for city what do kids think about our town in our city and this is a great book and it asks questions like you know interesting fact like how old are you or you know I identify as what would you like to see in your town in 30 years now I don't know about you but when I was 13 I wouldn't think about what's going on 30 years ago so you know the better kids and I and of course it's in English and Spanish which is really neat so Bravo extremely well done we also got some notes here so forgive me the waterway some of the water people reported out that's Creek week is coming up in September from September 16th to the 23rd really cool events like a tour of underground downtown all right so if you are like me that just sounds way too fun and way too cool apparently a lot of people think it's way too fun we took cool because it's there's a waiting list to get there but there are other things on the 20th they're doing the dash for trash which I love this is that you get to win the golden trash cup who doesn't want that for their mantle tour the creek with over 40 miles of creeks that should be also fun and of course a clean up and if you have any you want to get more information about it you can go to srcity.org forward slash creek week this is why I'm wearing this fantastic t-shirt tonight very very fashionable ours to protect our creeks in waterways are our jewel and it's great to see that so many people care and do a lot of work and lastly this sort of paradigm shift that we took as the waterway advisory committee you know we're the police of developers so that they don't destroy our creeks is one way of of looking at it but it was brought today that maybe we're not just the policing of developers but maybe we can be partners in helping developers accentuate our creeks to make the creeks the waterways a feature of future development as opposed to just walling it off how about let's make it so that we can have access to them where we can bring our kids our families and actually partake in you know the brilliance of our creek system so it was a great day thanks thank you any other comments I have a few and I also was able to go to the caritas grand opening ribbon cutting whatever you want to call it and it's very cool to see it come to fruition there's been a shelter of some kind on that site since the late 80s and it's nice to see this brand new building that will be providing housing to a segment of the population that is in much need of that housing we had today mayor's lunch with all the Board and Commission chairs and there was a discussion about the underground walking and a lot of grousing because it sells out quote-unquote it's free but it sells out really fast and even people on the waterways advisory committee including the chair didn't get signed up for it well disappointed by that actually so there was we are going to continue having those lunches every other month with the mayor she did want to make sure that the chairs passed on her thanks to all the Board and Commission members for all the work that we do and that you all do and hopefully within the next few months there will be a luncheon for all the board chair members as a thank you that we used to have that pre-covid I did want to mention the mayor the senator's a merit awards the ceremony for that will be on the 18th of September at Finley if you're interested it will also be on the city's YouTube page I think I think that was it for me so do we have any public comments on item 4.2 commissioner reports if you're in person and wish to make a comment on item 4.2 please make your way to the podium if you're attending via zoom please raise your hand chair weeks we have no public comment on item 4.2 commissioner reports thank you and then we'll move on to item 5 which is department report yes thank you chair weeks and members of the Commission Jessica Jones deputy director for the planning division a couple things and Commissioner Sanders stole my thunder here but yes we are sad to announce that Amy Lyle who is our supervising planner for the advanced planning team is moving on to a new adventure we're super happy for her but is a huge loss on our team she is going to be taking on the role of community development director for the town of Corda Madeira so we're very excited for her but again big loss on our team but we will be working feverishly to to fill that role and continue on with the important work that they're doing in particular with the general plan so on that note yes as you all are aware our draft general plan is out for public review and we are doing a tremendous amount of community outreach as commissioner Sanders alluded to really trying to reach every member of our community from the youth to you know everybody who typically doesn't get involved in these kind of tends to be somewhat dry planning topics so we're we're working really hard on that we've had two community workshops thus far that we're very well attended we had a workshop with the food alliance group we have had a number of pop-up events where we're going to locations that are existing events throughout the city and showing up with all of our materials and gathering information and collecting surveys from folks will be out this weekend at the Santa Rosa Marathon and the 5k 10k as well as at Montgomery Village so lots of good outreach happening and then just as a reminder for the Commission we will be bringing the general plan as a study session for you on September 14th at your regularly scheduled meeting and are looking for comments from all of you on the draft that has been prepared and then finally just a quick update I know you guys are all aware of the shenate property that project is moving forward we do have an application for a neighborhood meeting and they have renamed themselves they are now woodlands at shenate so if you see that that's what that is we are working to update our website we've got a dedicated email address for that project but this first step is the neighborhood meeting and so that will be scheduled likely at the end of September and we'll make sure that that information gets out to the Commission it will be both an in-person and a zoom meeting and so if the Commission is interested in participating please just contact me let me know we want to make sure that we don't end up having a quorum and creating a planning commission meeting but that meeting will also be recorded so you'll have an opportunity to view it after the fact as well and that's all I have thank you do we have any public comments on department report chair weeks I don't see any hands raised at this time and there's nobody making their way to the podium thank you so with that we'll move on to statement of abstentions are there any abstentions tonight okay seeing none we don't have any consent items nor report items so we'll move on to our first item first scheduled item which is public hearing banya banya tree removal appeal one oh eight oh second Street TR 22-062 I do want to let everybody know that we've had a request from staff who received an arborist report earlier today and haven't had a chance to review it and so we would like to continue this item to September 14th can I get a motion from someone to do that I'll move that we continue this item to September 14th thank you sir chairman madam chairman can you please wait one moment well I'd like to speak before you vote on the matter we represent the Salvation Army okay we would like to say something okay can just one moment I just want to check it's so we'll postpone voting on it until we hear from the appellant yes please okay thank you for alerting everyone that that is what staff is recommending a continuance in order to review the late submitted reports from the appellant but yes please if the appellant would like to address staff's recommendation please do so and then you guys can determine if you want to make a motion to continue or not so I could you please state your name for the record for the record my name is Kevin Conasek I'm an attorney here in Santa Rosa I am here with my law partner Michelle Zyromsky we represent the Salvation Army and as far as work concerned this is fine we were prepared to put on a presentation today about this but I'll give you a little encapsulated view of it imagine that you have a dog a dog that is the Westminster Kennel Club champion and that is a rare dog it's wonderful and that dog you're walking that dog and it bites somebody guess what in California law our premises liability statute says you're gonna pay for the injuries to that to that person who the dog bit now let's say a month later a year later five years later the dog bites somebody again guess what you're on the hook not only for the compensatory damages but punitive damages because you have knowledge that the dog was dangerous now I ask you to just think we have a witness here who will testify to getting bopped on the head by one of these bunion bunion tree cones we also have a witness an expert witness is going to testify contrary to the city's witness that there is a moderate to have the probability that there's going to be another cone that's going to box somebody now I think there are some people in here are lawyers and they know the local law firms here and we have some excellent plaintiffs attorneys but you get bopped on the head by a bunion bunion cone and you have a catastrophic brain injury that's forty fifty million dollars now our issue is not the bunion bunion tree we love the bunion bunion tree we love Lou Burbank we love all this stuff but who is going to take the risk for the potential injury damages for it that's it is the city gonna do it are the people who who have submitted declarations to what with the staff are they going to are you staff going to take responsibility no but you're not sir excuse me sir so it's excuse me what I'm asking practical solution here I would ask when I know that Ashley Crocker is here from the city attorneys of it we would ask that planning commission recommends that we meet with the city attorneys office and your risk management people that we speak the same language I am going to put a stop to this if you want to speak to me after we can do so what was put here on the table to the commission was a recommendation for a continuance and you indicated that you would like to speak as to the recommendation the continuance so so we're fine with the continues what we would like what we're asking this you asked for continues we're asking for a recommendation from the commission that why you guys get together and talk with risk management and the city attorney that's it thank you is so is the motion is on the table a second thank you so that was moved by commissioner Cisco seconded by commissioner Holton to continue this item to September 14th 2023 our next regular meeting can we call roll please commissioner Carter commissioner Cisco hi commissioner Holton hi commissioner Peterson hi commissioner Sanders hi chair weeks hi so that passes with six eyes and one excuse me one absence vice-chair dug an absent so then that will be continued as we just voted until the 14th of September so then we'll move on to item 9.2 which is the hollyhock subdivision tentative map time extension 1650 me to avid me to avenue extension I'm gonna wait until the chamber clears okay if we could continue now so as I said this is item 9.2 public hearing hollyhock subdivision tentative map time extension 1650 me to avenue extension 23-0001 and Janden briscoe is making his debut in front of us thank you thank you for the introduction good evening commissioner weeks and everybody of the planning commission I'm Janet briscoe city planner trainee and I'm here to present hollyhock subdivision tentative map time extension on August 10 2017 the planning commission approved the hollyhock tentative map which is a 16 lot subdivision located it located on two acres at 1650 me to avenue and before the commission today is just a one I'm sorry I I don't know what's wrong with me tonight thank you commissioner Cisco sorry Janden this is an exparte item and it's in my script and I should have read it but I didn't and that takes a village to help me thank you so this is an exparte item so we'll start with commissioner Cisco I have no new information to report commissioner Holton I also have no information to report commissioner Peterson I also have no new information to report commissioner Carter nothing to disclose on this item thank you and commissioner Sanders nothing to disclose and I visited the site as I have before and have nothing further disclose so now Janden continue sorry it's okay and so yeah before the planning commission today is just a one-year time extension that requests that they extend expiration date from February 8th 2023 to February 8th 2024 and as I stated previously the planning commission approved the tentative map on August 10 2017 and they approved the conditional use permit for the hollyhock subdivision and prior to the expiration the applicant submitted an entitlement on January 18 2023 to extend the tentative map for one year and and staff's initial complete list review we noticed that the conditional use permit required an extension as well and during that time there was some back and forth to get both of these entitlements in line and that's why we're here today and this slide shows is a visual image of the tentative map and as you can see is a it's a 16-lot parcel or it's a 16-lot parcel on two acres which is consistent with the general plan designation and the parcel has access to Brookwood Avenue to the east and Mead Avenue to the west here's an area view of the project site and as you can see it's surrounded by single-family residents to the east and to the west to the north is undeveloped and this is in a southeast and quadrant of Santa Rosa the zoning designation is R-1-6 which is intended for single family residential uses and a general plan designation is low-density residential which allows for two to eight units per acre and which and this project complies with that as well this project was found in compliance with the California Environment Equality Act and qualifies for a streamlining measure under section 15183 since it's consistent with the general plan and it also qualifies for a categorical exemption since the project under section 15332 since the project is an infill development. Thus it is recommended by the Planning and Economic Development Department that the Planning Commission approve a one-year time extension for the Holly Hawk tentative map extending the ex extending the expiration date to February 8th 2024. Here's my contact information if you have any questions. Thank you. Are there any questions of staff before we hear from the applicant? Does the applicant have a presentation? I don't see the applicant here today and I don't see him on Zoom so I don't know presentation today. Okay so with that I will go ahead and open the public hearing for this item so if you have public comments if you could make your way to one of the podiums and please state your name for the record once you get there and you will be given a total of three minutes and you should be able to see a countdown timer. There's the microphone if you want can want to raise a podium there's a button on the side the other side and if you could speak directly into the microphone so we can hear you please. All right my name is Larry Corbin I live at 1770 Mita Avenue which is the property directly south of the proposed project. We have been trying to get this project going and taken care of. I lost about 40 yards of dirt last year in the storms because of the cut that the company made. I've requested that the company build the fence and repair my property. I have received no information from Mr. Frutrell. This is something that has been drawn out for they have not been on the project since April to my knowledge of doing anything. We're looking at weather conditions coming again and we'd like to see when this project is going to be moved forward rather than set here for two more years. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions from the chamber? Are there any hands raised via zoom? Yes there is one person. Lee J. Pierce I'm going to send you a prompt to unmute yourself. Please state your name for the record. Lee I sent you a prompt to unmute yourself. There you go. Okay again excuse me my name is Lee J. Pierce. I live directly across from this project. 2202 Brookwood Avenue and like the other gentlemen just said this project has been a real eyesore really for me and when you get a couple of RVs parking out there in some ways it blocks your view from the eyesore but in other ways we had to go out and buy some cones to keep construction people and other people from blocking our view blocking our house and the whole thing. So like him I'm interested in how long it's going to take to get a the 16 homes over there and but the biggest issue that I would like to raise is the traffic. We already have a traffic problem. I've been here since 2015 at this very area and it's it's like a speedway the different times of the day and even night. So we're interested in where will be the entries and exits to this project and will there be safety concerns with those entries and exits IE flashing yellow lights across the street. We just had a family moved in next door to us. 226 who have small children. They're currently playing in the backside of the house but no one ever knows what happens when parents aren't looking or whatever. So traffic is a huge problem. Traffic calming and yeah just like to register that and the finally I'd like to know where there's probably on SR city.org I should know but I'd like to know where we could get get our hands on sort of the schematics of the project for how the houses will look that whole thing from a visual aesthetic kind of place. That's all I have. Thank you very much. Thank you Mr. Pierce. Are there any other comments? Can I see someone going to the podium and then we'll go back to zoom if there's any other hands raised and if you could please state your name for the record. Absolutely. My name is Aaron Ford. That's F-O-R-D. Can you raise the microphone? Yeah. Thank you. I don't watch after bending down the whole time. I am actually a resident of an adjacent subdivision would have been the Meta subdivision. I live on Glenwell Drive. Our subdivision is a one road in one road out. That is Meta is the only way I can get into my house. Meta is the only way I can get out of my house. There are firearms within the section 8 subdivision that's located to the south of my property but Meta is again the only exit strategy I have that dumps me out at the rear of the fairgrounds. So the approval and moving forward of any subdivision for the Holly Hawk subdivision would allow possibly another exit strategy for myself if as we know in this area there was a fire I would be able to get myself as I'm a single mom myself and my daughter out to safety in a more prompt manner. I would like to point out though and maybe I'll bring it up in another meat planning meeting that there are some empty fields that are owned by the Sonoma County Santa Rosa I believe that are just south on Meta. Meta doesn't connect but it would give a whole lot of people the ability to escape their homes if they were in danger. So I would like for this subdivision to go on and be completed just because again construction etc for my fellow neighbors but I also I understand the pitfalls currently for construction in the area so I I feel okay with an extension but I just did want to go ahead and speak my piece that that extension of the road between Brookwood and Meta would be extremely helpful and possibly save lives for people in my neighborhood if it happened to get on fire because there's a lot of dry fields around there. So thank you very much. Thank you. Are there any other hands raised on Zoom? Chair Weeks there are no other hands raised on Zoom. Okay so with that I'll go ahead and close the public hearing on this item and bring it back to the Commission for any final questions and let me just follow up with a couple of the comments that were raised by the public. Biggest question seems to be when's the project going forward do you have a timeline that you could share with us? No not at the moment I do not have a timeline. Okay Chair Weeks Amy Nicholson supervising planner I can just add that we looked at the engineering permitting history so there are approved improvement plans for the subdivision and they also do have an issued grading permit that grading permit was issued back in 2021 so I'm not sure it sounds like maybe they've done some work and they intend to continue it but we don't have an actual schedule from from the applicant right now. Okay and then the other question about what's project going to look like is there's some where that you could point the public to the schematics? We that was back in the right at the beginning of the time that we actually Mr. Futrell challenged us on on requiring architecture for the Planning Commission for small lot subdivisions and he won which is not necessarily a bad thing but so we don't have any approved architecture when he submits for building permits those plans will be available for the public so when the Planning Commission approved the map and the conditional use permit for the small lot subdivision there was no architecture provided thank you. And I can just add that it does look like we have they are some like master plans which would be architectural plans so we can let's see Jandon I think can share his email address and then or whoever is interested can come down to our department and we can certainly show you any plans that we have on file that relate to architecture. Thank you. Are there other questions from the Mr. Sanders? I'm being a firefighter evacuation routes are kind of important to me as well. The development though creates an extra street is that correct? Holly Hawk is would be the street so I guess what I'm asking is it seems to me that there's with the development another egress is that am I seeing that correctly from Netta? Yes so once the development goes in now there's not just one way in and one way out. Yes still as you can see on a tentative map there's access on to Mead Avenue and to Brookwood Avenue and you would correct that Holly Hawk Lane will be splitting that parcel. Okay thank you. Thank you. Commissioner Peterson? I think we've addressed it a little bit and this is certainly not the first time it's come up in one of our meetings but I guess my question is based on the public's comment you know is there a timeliness standard for for tentative maps that we're looking at I know we see some that have been extended extended extended for you know a decade plus so is there an enforcement mechanism is there there's some standard we're looking at? Thank you for the question Commissioner Peterson we do have a limit on the number of time extensions that we can grant for a tentative map some of those projects you know that were alive for 10 or 12 years was primarily due to the recession and all the state state mandated extensions so in this case this project I believe has actually I don't want to speak so I don't have the document in front of me but I know that there have been a number of extensions already applied and so I do not believe that they have more than two one-year extensions left. So it looks like that this is the first of the five year first of the five one-year extensions that they can get so the automatic extensions don't typically count towards those five extensions allowed via the map act so this would be the first of that okay just to clarify because this is a little bit strange in 2019 and 2020 the city allowed for automatic one-year extensions of time so they that was tied to the Tubbs fire so that that does count against the five available but it was automatically applied so it wasn't a discretionary extension before the Commission so it sounds like they have received two of those and then with this one combined that would be a total of three so they would have two one-year extensions available should the Commission grant the one this evening and and so it's it's not indefinite and what would happen when they if you don't build and you've run out of tentative map extensions in that case the map would expire so they would have to apply as if it were a new project and then in the meantime is there anything on file related to the conditional use permit or the tentative map that was previously approved in 2017 that would have sort of construction standards you know swales or anything like that if there is rain or other inclement weather I can't say for certain just because I don't have those plans in front of me but because there are approved improvement plans so that looks at the you know the streets the sidewalks and it has different protective measures and the construction notes those should be on the improvement plans and those are available we can certainly any member the public can take a look at those as well if they come to our office or contact Jan and by email okay thank you Mr. Carter yeah is this the type of project that would be entered on any of the wonderful dashboards you've been telling us about the track city projects yes it should be shown as an approved project on our pending development report at least okay and it would have additional project information at that site timelines or approval dates that sort of thing there there are approval dates and we hope in our the dashboards we're working on to link to additional information but we haven't fully flushed all that out yet so well we might make that site known and available to the public thank you any other questions okay so with that if somebody would like to enter the resolution commissioner Holton like to make a resolution of the planning commission of the city of Santa Rosa proving a one-year extension for the tentative map for Holly Hawks subdivision located at 1650 Meta Avenue assessor's parcel number 044 032 006 file number extension 23-004 and wait for the reading thank you is there a second second so that was moved by commissioner Holton seconded by commissioner Cisco so let's go ahead and start with commissioner Sanders for any comments regarding this I guess I don't really have any other comments you know hopefully you know we can expedite and we get some shovels in the ground so that we're not losing dirt and we can have some evacuation routes and get that project off the ground so I'll be supporting and the findings yes I can make the findings to grant the extension thank you commissioner Carter I think the product the project has been properly reviewed and it makes sense to extend so that we can go ahead and get the project completed in a timely fashion and I can make all the necessary findings to approve the resolution thank you commissioner Peterson yes I can make all the required findings thank you commissioner Cisco I can I too can make all of the required findings mr. Holton and I like my fellow commissioners can make all the required findings thank you thank you and I also can make all the required findings so with that if we could have a vote please commissioner Carter I commissioner Cisco I commissioner Holton I commissioner Peterson I commissioner Sanders I chair weeks I so that passes with six eyes one absent with the commissioner deck or vice-chair Duggan being absent and we'll move on to item 9.3 oh I'm sorry let me first of all need to add the verbiage please note this action is final unless an appeal is filed with the city clerk's office within 10 calendar days of today's decision pursuant to zoning code section 20-62 point zero three zero thank you and with that we'll move on to item 9.3 everyone okay with just proceeding or okay so item 9.3 is a public hearing 711 sale of beer and wine for off-site consumption to conditional you use permit it's located at 136 College Avenue CUP 22-052 this is an exparte item so we'll start with Commissioner Cisco yes I visited the site I want to disclose that on my way to visiting the site I have to I go down Cleveland I had to pass by the 9th Street market which is a small market that does have liquor sales just outside the 1,000 foot radius that staff was looking at and as I passed by there's was nine in the morning there were two police cars officers having some kind of a conversation with an individual who appeared to be an unhoused transient with a cart right outside the door of the 9th Street market so and I did ask Miss Murray to see if she could find out anymore about that it doesn't appear that we have any other information it may not have been an actual call for service there but I don't know what's going on but I'll tell you I also went back and reviewed the Planning Commission meeting minutes from 2004 which I was on the Commission at that time and was part of that decision and Miss Murray included that in our materials so no new information there but want the Commission to have that available and I also had a brief conversation with Greg Parker of the St. Rose neighborhood thank you nothing else Commissioner Holton that's interesting that you also had a disclosure with a situation with somebody who was inebriated because I too also visited the site and in doing so this was actually at about 6 o'clock at night and there was a gentleman that was actually passed out drunk on the sidewalk so and right in front of the market so it's unfortunate but I wasn't that I have nothing further to disclose thank you Commissioner Peterson I visited the site and have no additional information to disclose thank you Commissioner Carter I also visited the site and have nothing further to disclose thank you and Commissioner Sanders and I have visited the site and have nothing further to disclose and I also visited the site and have nothing further to disclose so with that we'll start with Miss Murray sorry I need help getting this up on the screen good afternoon chair weeks and members of the Commission the project before you as was already discussed is the 7-11 request to sell beer and wine for off-site consumption at the 136 College Avenue location there you have it it's the project is in a nutshell is a conditional use permit to sell beer and wine for off-site consumption and here's a photograph of the the site as it appears today here's an aerial view of the site it's outlined in blue I think yeah there's a star and just to give you kind of an idea about the neighborhood context there's residential directly adjacent to it to the south the corridor there is a line lined with commercial businesses both on on both sides of highway 101 and then there's of course more residential both to the north and to the east of College Avenue on the east side of the freeway so this image shows the the 1000 foot buffer taken from our GIS system geographic information system and there's the the green star is the the subject location and then these two stars show the closest points within within that 1000 foot radius where there are other similar uses these are both gas stations that have convenient stores so it's a little bit different from the 7-11 which is really a convenient store that has gas station pumps so here is an aerial of the site taken or yeah I guess it's a probably from 2022 and something that came up in some of the questions that were raised by the Commission prior to the meeting is some of what physical changes or what material changes have taken place well there's more than material changes that have taken place in since 2004 which was when a denial was made for a similar conditional use permit and I'll talk about that history in a minute but I didn't reorder my slides but this slide addresses one of those questions and that is that this fence that's in the photograph shown at the lower left-hand corner has been constructed and back in 2004 that fence was not there in fact that fence was constructed within the last couple of years based on some Google images street images that I took and the other physical change that's taken place is that there is the foliage you can see through the foliage back then you could not it was very very dense and it's cleaned up now and and so I wanted to point that out while we're here and I'll reference back to it so previous application history there is there is quite a lot back in 2002 the Planning Commission and the City Council approved a project that would allow the expansion of the service station and add the convenience store that that project involved the reason it went to the Council is it involved a rezoning so it had to go to the Council it was a with a recommendation of approval from the Planning Commission in 2004 there was a request for a public convenience or necessity there's with the public convenience or necessity that that used to be the Police Department made that that finding I guess that it would or would not serve public convenience or necessity that that was that that was denied initially by the Police Chief and then appealed and and was eventually approved by the Council on appeal so the whoopsie I think I jumped ahead of myself then in July and September of 2004 we had a project come back now that they had their their public convenience or necessity finding the a project came in for a conditional use permit and that's the project that I was referring to earlier a similar one where it was really very similar it was a service station with a convenience store requesting to sell beer and wine from the convenience store that came to the Planning Commission the Planning Commission denied the project and the City Council it went up to the Council on appeal and the Council upheld or denied the appeal and upheld the Planning Commission's decision to deny the use permit that the findings that were made to deny the use permit were I'm just going to do a quick summary of what's up on the screen the first finding it didn't promote livable neighborhoods I'd like to talk about each one a little bit as we go since then there there has been the adoption or the update to the downtown station area specific plan that update including included extending the boundary of that that specific plan area up to college one of the the full text of the this general plan land use policy includes putting shopping or everyday needs within walking distance of residential uses and that there was a memo that went out to the Commission and I believe that was also in the staff report that really called called the the full text of that general plan goal which was I don't I don't know that the text changed since 2004 but I do know how it reads today so the second the second finding that the rear of the convenience market is adjacent to a dead end street it was adjacent to a dead end street and it's still adjacent to a dead end street but I'd like to point out to that there's a pedestrian access so people can walk not just from the dead end street they can access College Avenue but what they can't do is access the store from that side of the property anymore because of that fence that's there I will say that I have visited the site to on several occasions and what I've noticed back on that dead end street is that there there was some debris out there but it was all debris that was really associated with the residential uses that are there I didn't see any bottles or cans or candy wrappers or chip bags or anything like that would which would be more associated with the the retail store and the debris that I saw also wasn't something that would suggest that there was homeless issues I mean it was like an empty box from something that somebody had bought at Home Depot and some some boards so then the third finding there's a significant transient population in the area I'm going to wait to address that one because I've we have officer Ryan Corcoran from the I'm sorry officer Captain Ryan Corcoran from the police department and he's gonna he's got a few he's gonna chime in here in a few minutes but I got to wait till I get to that slide so I'm deferring on that one the fourth finding that was made that alcohol is currently available for sale at various locations in that area and I pointed out there were two within a thousand feet right along College Avenue but the zoning code doesn't regulate concentration for this use we do the zoning code does regulate concentration for some uses but not this use so finding number five the proposed use is not appropriate at the time due to lack of compatibility I I wasn't present at the time it was before I came to work for the city I came about two years later but as I mentioned earlier we we reevaluated that downtown station area and we extended the boundary to include all the properties south of College Avenue in this area including this so there's not just the physical change with events but there's also the the change in the city's intent for that area let's see in the the lack of harmonious integrations with the neighborhood and the potential for a new sense again I'm going to wait I think that captain Corcoran will speak to that then then the last finding that was made is that the proof proposed use is not appropriate this time as it will not serve public health safety or welfare you know I I've said this finding since I have been working for the city in planning since 2006 and I finally actually went up and I looked up the definition of welfare and it really it really includes the public health and safety among other things and I I think that we've addressed this finding in the draft resolution and I'll defer to that here so then moving back into history in November of 2009 another not the business operator from 2004 and not the current business operator another business operator came in and was approved for a PCN public convenience or necessity I want to say we you know there was a question why didn't we see a conditional use permit following that I could only speculate I don't know that anybody has that answer at least anybody here but what I really want at the the Planning Commission to understand is that historically there was a big confusion between is it public convenience and necessity and or is it public convenience or necessity and the why the difference between the and or the or I think we can all pretty much agree that it's never a necessity but it's usually a convenience so so spoken from somebody who likes Sonoma County wine so the beer and wine sales I clearly didn't edit my slides so I'm just going to tell you what's on this slide is the general plan land use designation which is neighborhood mixed use and again that's a new land use designation that was and that I mean the land use itself was created with that downtown station area specific plan and then the zoning is consistent and it's within the station area combining district there's the correct slide I kind of had a hybrid there the zoning code the zone there's a special this is one of those uses that there are special things to consider and making your decision and special review criteria criteria for staff and also special conditions for the business operators and I've listed those here that they need to the business operator would need to take corrective measures if there were some objectional behavior which is typically calling the police department keep the site clean which I it's been my experience in my site visits that that has been the case provide staff training and I believe that staff training is a requirement also of the ABC alcohol beverage control and I'll say that we also have a representative from the alcohol beverage control I'm just going to call them ABC it's easier and she's here and and available for questions after the presentation staffing surveillance and security I'm gonna I'll let the applicant speak to that but they have my understanding is that they have a complete like a every inch of the property under surveillance surveillance right now section provides yeah here we go more more operating stand standards limitations on product product sales and displays they can't have displays within five feet of the front door no video or arcade games areas used for alcohol beverages shall be lockable and package sizes of no larger than 24 cups that can be sold so I'm gonna say here that 7-11 has been doing this for a really long time I think it was I went and looked at the history on Wikipedia they saw that they started doing this right after the prohibition they started selling food and beverage they changed their name to 7-11 when they were really pioneers with long hours and stayed open from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. for convenience store items so they so they they've as far as we've got 11 7-11's in the city of Santa Rosa they all are required to have those lockable refrigerators and what have you and I every 7-11 I've ever been to has has that that I've noticed I haven't always gone in looking for beer or wine but when I have they've had it so next the signs and postings there's no on-site consumption they already have an illuminated address sign and they you know that's posting the conditional use permit would be required and then of course compliance with other requirements from outside agencies and more specifics specifically here is the ABC so there are also review criteria and backing up to those that that last slide or those last couple of slides the project has been conditioned in the resolution to comply with that section of the code these were not itemized and it was very intentional that they were not itemized because regulations change they either get more restrictive or less restrictive but a business operator is required to remain in compliance so regardless if it you know if we change something if we add something in they would have to comply with that even though it's not specifically addressed on their resolution the additional review criteria that staff considered and worked with the applicant and the ABC on and the police department first as I mentioned or I don't know that I did mention that we granted a public convenience or necessity for this project that was given earlier this year from planning and economic development I I included with the attachments to the staff report some statistics and since we have Captain Corcoran here I'm going to let him respond to questions about those concentrations of licenses per capita again that's not something we don't regulate that that is regulated by the ABC and I'm sure that their representative will be able to answer questions about that as well and the numbers of alcohol related calls are going to Captain Corcoran again so let's see additional the proximity of alcohol beverages to outlet to residential residential districts as you saw in the area it's adjacent directly adjacent to one district and relatively close to a couple of others but it is not within a thousand feet that I can tell of any daycare centers park and recreation facilities places of religious assembly or schools whether the the site plan and floor plan incorporate design features reducing alcohol related problems again it's I've been into the store they've got a locked bathroom it's actually out of order when I was there but there is a keypad lock on it it was I just have to say that I looked at the coffee counter and it's the cleanest coffee counter I think I've ever seen a store so they keep a tidy shop so they they I'm going to let them if you have any questions about their their existing surveillance I'll let them speak to that and I didn't see any benches or anything like that in fact my experience when I drove in in my last visit was that I saw two police cruisers and I thought oh no what's going on and I asked I went and asked one of them roll down your window and and he answered and he said this is just this is we're here every day because this is where we like to get our power drinks so anyways that was refreshing so the required findings there are six and with any conditional use permit and they those were included and the draft resolution the project has been reviewed in compliance with the California Environmental Quality Act it is exempt categorically exempt because it involves the addition of you know retail use for a couple of the retail items no or any expansion is negligible and and it's consistent with the general plan and the downtown station area specific plan so issues city staff you know we in planning we know that there's there's always a lot of questions raised for off-site the approval for off-site sales for beer and wine or sales for off-site consumption the project plans were referred out to the usual suspects fire and traffic and engineering and building but also to the police department and housing and community services was also consulted there were no issues raised but this is when I'd like to ask captain corcoran to come up and assist me in here because he's got some some comments that I'd like to include as part of this presentation and he is heading to the microphone I'll finish the rest of this after he's able to speak welcome captain take a minute thank you for having me chair weeks members of the Commission we can't hear you how about now a little closer okay sorry thank you going as high as I can thank you thank you for having me this was an interesting review from other ones that I have looked at in that my first question was there's a 7-11 that doesn't serve beer and wine because I've never heard of that I was having a conversation with Susie and out of the 11 7-11's in our jurisdiction 10 of them serve beer and wine so it's the only one that does not so that was interesting so then I dove into the documents in the history looked at the area and I decided to meet up with the Kelly Kaikendall from the Department of Housing and Community Services and the two of us drove around the neighborhood we looked at the business it's a very clean run shop they've a really nice fence behind it I then went to the other two gas stations within the thousand feet the one at 50 West College and the one at 300 College they serve beer and wine and if anything the 7-11 seems to be a more suitable location than those two I don't see any real impact to the police department it's substantial we don't have any opposition to this project from an equity standpoint I just don't see how one business or other 7-11's can do business a certain way and then this one would be excluded any questions for me thank you why don't we do you want to ask questions of Captain Corcoran now and then go back to Ms. Murray to finish or how would you like to handle that I I think I should finish the presentation and he'll stick around for questions no problem thank you okay and so when I wrote this slide or created the slide there were only two public comments and we've since we've received I should say three public comments two of them came from the same person and then one came from a phone call you were provided with a copy of the emailed comment the phone call was somebody voicing support for the project he said they've been a very good neighbor and he didn't like the sign that they posted I had to take credit for that so I guess they got a pretty good review we received a public comment that was uploaded as late correspondence I think this morning I I think I only got it this morning today's been kind of a blur from Denise Hill from the St. Rose district St. Rose district thanks and and in there she provided some maps some Google maps that showed where some of the homeless facilities were and I believe that during their their tour today that the captain was talking about they also looked at those sites and I do have some comments from her just basically labeling them that included keratocid it includes a lot of places that you know the living room things like that so anyways and and of course Miss Hill was was also expressing that she was not in support of the project so with that it's recommended by the Planning and Economic Development Department that the Planning Commission by resolution approve a conditional use permit allowing the sale of beer and wine for off-site consumption for 711 at 136 College Avenue that concludes my presentation my contact information is here and I know sometimes there are callers who can't see the screen so I'm just going to say if you have any questions and you're calling in my phone number is 707-543-448 and you can call me anytime I do answer my phone and that concludes my presentation and we do have again several people available for questions thank you the applicant have a presentation yes they do okay so let's go ahead and ask questions of staff first and then the applicant can make their presentation so Commissioner Cisco yeah mine isn't actually a question it's a correction and I think the reason why Miss Murray and Captain Corcoran don't realize there is another 711 in Santa Rosa that is not allowed to sell alcohol was because it was part of the Rosalind annexation and at the time that it was you know give that I have a bunch of history to give you but it does not sell out of alcohol it's on the corner of Dutton and Sebastopol Road and that that came about with a lot of community work with then Supervisor Efron Carrillo and developing the County's alcohol ordinance and because of its proximity to Georgia Trail and the Roberts Avenue area so I just want to correct that there is another one so thank you are there other questions of staff at this time Commissioner Sanders and we're not asking any questions of the no you can ask Captain Corcoran too if you wouldn't mind coming back up to the podium thank you one question we're talking about a new fence that's been put in what what does that fence remedy it limit it limits access from the dead end street to the to the property and it there was some old photographs that were provided in the memo and it shows back in 2004 I think it was 2004 it might have been a little bit later but there was very dense foliage and no fence and so it provided an area for people just kind of tuck in and hunker down and have a cocktail right so that is no longer something that's that yeah they they can't do that they now it's fully visible I mean I've I've walked back there and I think that might be a photograph that I took that's up there on the screen so so I walked down the little pedestrian access yeah you'd have to walk down the pedestrian access and so there is there isn't out at that dead end street a vehicle can't drive it would drive that intersection it would be you know a hairpin corner to get on to the freeway but a pedestrian can walk through and so yeah so somebody from the housing development could walk right you know right down the sidewalk and around the corner but they would have to access the site from College Avenue that's the only way that they can right so in in I guess in theory or in actual practical matter someone could purchase whatever they purchase and walk around down the access path and hunker down they just don't have they don't they have to take a few extra steps to hunker down behind they have to take a few extra steps to get to that location but there's no place there's no foliage now for them to hide in and and the property line is fenced off so when I don't know if the foliage was cleaned up and or the planted area was cleaned up when the fence went up I don't know when that occurred but at this point in time and over the last I mean if you do the year Google Street view images you can see it's been since 7-eleven's been there it's been kept very tidy and you mentioned that there are only two other businesses and I guess that's within a certain thousand foot range so what about 2001 how many do we have on College Avenue I'm sure you know that you've got you've got the what is it safe way down the road there's also a little funky little liquor store that's been there forever I've never been in there but it's down a little bit to the west there's also as Commissioner Cisco mentioned the 9th Street market and I think that's about 1200 feet away so but yeah so there are others and I again I I can't really other than doing the same Google search that Denise Hill did I can't tell where all the places are I mean I walking up and down the street or whatever so for I did look along college and I think perhaps can did you were you able to look those up other uses within a thousand feet so yeah Julie from the ABC she she she looked within a thousand feet because that was the parameter I gave her but yeah but again we don't we don't really look at concentration for these right so it's not as though someone can't get a beer if this does not allow I mean within a reasonable walk if 7-eleven doesn't get this past there's still people in that neighborhood there's a still a place for them to walk it may be a thousand and 12 feet but you still get a beer if you want a beer you can get a beer pretty quickly around there and probably get a sip from someone to captain you made a comment that I found interesting you said the other that this location is a little bit more suitable than the other two can you explain why from my appearance at looking at all of them it looks to be a bigger location more of a convenience market or grocery structure based on size where the other ones are a little smaller with more limited choices and so one thought would be you would look to that location and expect to find a certain amount of product and you would probably then have to drive to a secondary location if say you were looking for beer had you been there right so it's not necessarily the location itself it's what's at the location the actual physical structure is more substantial than the other options yes sir it's not the geography it would be the design okay thank you other questions of commissioner Holton and while you're up there captain I figure I just ask you this really quick so you were stating that that the department has no objections and that's great but I'm just really curious because I'm trying to kind of go through my head in regard to finding six and I'm just curious what your opinion is on how this how having the CUP would serve the public health and safety when I say I have no objection I don't think it's going to cause an increase in police services and so I don't know that it's going to serve public health and safety it may be more convenient as a matter of convenience for someone that may pull in there expecting a certain product and then they need to get in their car and drive a thousand feet to the next door I don't see it having an additional impact on the police department because they serve beer and wine thank you any other questions of staff before we hear from the applicant okay so if the applicant would like to make a presentation that would be great thank you good evening I'm as Bruce Evans I represent the applicant I have with me tonight Raj Uppel he's the franchisee we also have Alex Finn excuse me could you speak in directly into the microphone we also have Alex Finn he's the area leader for 7-eleven I want to start by thanking the planning department particularly Susie they've been incredibly professional throughout this process and responsive and we thank them for that the staff report and all its attachments is certainly thorough and it has all the information that we wanted to convey as part of this application so I don't want to repeat it I don't want to spend any extra time making a long presentation of course we are pleased with the positive recommendation from the planning department of course we are very pleased with the statements from the police that they do not oppose this and do not see the sale of alcohol creating additional burdens for them that being said we are not naive about the concerns and the potential impacts from the sale of alcohol those concerns are of course very legitimate and we take those concerns seriously and Raj can speak to the steps that he takes to be a good neighbor and that would include the sale of beer and wine what I want to try to talk to you about as directly and sincerely as I can is these concerns about alcohol because I can see the Commission I think some of you are wrestling with these issues I see every city that I that I show up in wrestles with these issues my community and my neighborhood where I live wrestles with these issues I would submit there's nothing about those concerns that cannot be addressed with appropriate conditions and good management and to that end it wasn't required by staff but if you if we can go to I believe a slide 3 that we have we tried to volunteer a set of policies that would be in place at this store and we're we're if the if the Commission is receptive we would certainly stipulate to make these part of the CUP in terms of enforceable conditions so that would be limits on the size of single beers no small single beers no malt liquor or cheap beer products would be sold we would propose a significant hours restriction the staff report mentioned 6 a.m. to 2 a.m. sorry 6 to 6 a.m. to 2 a.m. as to the sale of beer and wine we would cut that way back so that that window would be 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. there being no exterior advertising of alcoholic beverages at this site and then there wouldn't be not more than 10% of the retail space would be allocated to beer and wine if you feel those conditions are helpful we can agree to make them part of the CUP if you're not inclined to make them part of the CUP most of those conditions can be made part of the ABC license with the police department's recommendation and we'd be happy to participate in that process I know you've all been to the store if you had an opportunity to look around I think you would see what the with the captain saw and that is this is basically a small grocery store the the goal is to be a resource for that neighborhood so that they can get a little bit of everything they might want in terms of basic grocery and convenience items so if you go there you're going to see charcoal you're going to see milk you're going to see medicines you're going to see yogurt you're going to see fresh fruit you're going to see sandwiches and salads their fresh food items are delivered every single day fresh to that store seven days a week so the beer and wine this is not an effort to force alcohol on the neighborhood it is an effort to make that store convenient to have a complete product offering beer and wine fits in to the range of groceries that customers expect and that they're asking for at this store so again we understand the potential concerns we are grateful for the staff support in the position of the police department we will go above and beyond within that staff report as I think was evident in terms of the comments about the way the store has been run the appearance of that store 7-11 started this business at the end of 2021 they built the fence they cleaned up the foliage they added security cameras in that back area they added lighting and they will do anything that they can reasonably do to make it the best store possible and to make you feel comfortable approving this application and and if there is a concern still I'll point out you have one extra tool in your chest and that is you could make this application or sorry you could approve this CUP and build in an expiration date that would put the burden on the applicant on 7-11 to come back and prove that they've done a good job and prove that it hasn't been a problem and reapply to extend that CUP at their cost their application notification or you could build in a one-year review so the city has all the tools at its disposal to make sure that we do what we say we're gonna do and we're gonna do it the right way I know Raj wants to speak to you but I am happy to answer any questions can we go out of order there were three public or three speakers for the applicant team I'm sorry she was one of the three speakers that we listed this is Shana Morales okay she has to go would you like us to advance these slides I'm done with the slides for now thank you okay all right you hear me my name is Shana Morales and I live local near I live about five minutes away and I go to the this 7-11 twice a day every single day and when I go in there the staff is very friendly the place is always clean there's always fresh when they do have like their chicken wings it's always fresh the store is very clean and the like I said the staff that the works the guys at work there are very very friendly good people and I do actually when I'm there I do see a lot of the Santa Rosa PD there and when I first was going I'd see them and I think oh no that something's going wrong or something's happening and they actually go there they're actually buying chicken wings they're actually you know buying stuff and and I see them I see them and they're all like a lot of times I don't I rarely ever see any kind of problems when they have somebody pulled over or they're outside if someone's getting in trouble and I've gone there a couple times and I there have been a couple people outside ask the homeless people asking me for change I'll go in the store and I'll tell one of the workers and they take care of it right away but I mean this I this store is kind of more like a I mean when you go there I have my two kids and it's like a family little market it's actually that's only seven that I will go to actually and so I mean I really really like it I my kids go there they treat my kids very well so you know I think they should have this thank you thank you right now we're taking comments from the applicant so if the applicant has additional comments and then after that we will go ahead and open the public comment portion for the public to weigh in on this so just a reminder to everyone yeah hi my name is Raj Apple I'm the franchisee of the store I've been there since October 21 2021 sorry and we have been we've been trying to be a part of this community and we do like Project A games we have donated water we have done different things where to be a part of this community and as far as some of the questions were outside we my employees go out very very often outside to walk the perimeter of the business we pick up if there's any litter if there's any somebody's just hanging out we just have asked them to leave or anything like that so we are trying to do the best we can be as a as a neighborhood market thank you any other comments from the applicant before we open the public hearing no not unless there's any questions okay so are there any questions from the Commission to the applicant before we go to the public comment portion Commissioner Cisco yeah my question isn't really for the applicant it's more for Miss Crocker to clarify the applicants willingness to self-impose operational standards and how that doesn't work so she could explain that to us thank you for the question I can start and then staff can chime in if they want but on those proposed conditions the city cannot condition projects such that it limits or addresses alcohol sales so that the conditions all of them actually we would not find to be appropriate conditions with the exception of the surveillance which I believe is already a condition of approval so it's the ABC that regulates alcohol sales so for the size of the containers and all of the other self-imposed conditions that they suggested there I thank you for the suggestions but that's not within the city the city's ability to add those conditions and Miss Murray is going to chime in I am the applicant volunteered that they they're aware of that they volunteered that they would self condition their ABC license and in conversations with the ABC and Julie Ruthie a is here to speak I had to make sure I hope I pronounce that right she's here she can help but they are very reluctant to impose conditions like that because it becomes an enforcement issue how do they do it so anyways if you have questions for her she could respond to those again yeah missioner Sanders this is for Ashley it was mentioned that the CUP could be conditioned or have an expiration date can you explain how that would work that was something that I believe we had done several years back and it is I would not recommend it at this time it causes yeah thank you it causes just some some complexities in terms of the conditional use permits run with the land and we do have an official process in our code that outlines how to revoke those permits so I would prefer that we stick by the code and if there does need to be a revocation there are certain findings that you make some of which are you know you don't follow the conditions of approval etc so if they did prove if you did approve this CUP and it they later proved to be not the greatest applicant we could go through a revocation process so I prefer not to expire permits as they do run with the land and they typically should not be expired without the revocation process so we no longer engage in that conditioning can you give me the clips notes of revocation process link the time or how does that it's a public hearing and there are I don't remember how many findings five or six findings that that could be the basis for the revocation and so I think probably not following the conditions approval would be the one that would come to mind as most applicable here if we pull it up I don't remember the code section offhand I should because we were talking about it recently but do you want those actual findings but it would be an open public hearing process and the applicant would come in to the Planning Commission and have their opportunity to speak and address the findings for revocation thank you any other questions so we'll go ahead and go to the public hearing on this item while you look for that section so I'm gonna open the public hearing if there's anybody in attendance please make your way to one of the podiums and you'll have three minutes not seeing anyone is there anybody on zoom if you're attending via zoom and wish to make a comment please raise your hand chair weeks there are no hands raised okay so with that I'll go ahead and close the public hearing on this and bring it back to the Commission for comments and we'll go ahead and start with Commissioner Cisco yeah thank you I was on the Commission at the time we denied the conditional use permit on this site in 2004 and I kind of want to give the Commission some history here this denial was it's not in a vacuum in other words at that time there was a lot of community effort particularly St. Rose neighborhood West End neighborhood Rosalind neighborhoods Carol Dean put together that map of areas of over concentration and and there were there we were meeting with officials having a lot of issues about alcohol sales and where they may or may not be appropriate we at that time we were turning down applications and we also approved applications not like we just like you know any any alcohol outlet anywhere but we were approving down applications that were near dead spots and already heavily impacted neighborhoods like along the Joe Rodota trail the the Chevron on stony point was not allowed to sell alcohol because of its proximity to the Joe Rodota trail and the potential impacts there and the gas station that was proposed and never built out on Fulton basically said we won't even ask for alcohol sales because they could see the tide we had a denial of alcohol sales in a small market in the JC neighborhood because it was up against an alleyway so it wasn't you know nothing against this store it's about the area around it and a lot of community effort to to have these things looked at and like I mentioned before at the time the little corner of Sevastopol Road and Dutton was not annexed we worked with the African Correo and the board of supervisors they were putting together their alcohol ordinance and again we showed them all the maps over concentration what can we do to not add any further impacts it's not like we can get rid of the impacts but it's like these are neighborhoods that already have impacts do you want to add one more opportunity to to have those impacts you know when when I looked at the police statistics and I really appreciate Miss Murray's ability to get statistics she's the best at it but you know we we as as commissions there have just been several issues in terms of every time we look at an alcohol use one of the issues is we would look at the ABC maps for over concentration and the ABC maps don't match up with the police beat maps so as a commission we were trying to kind of figure out well there really isn't over concentration but it's not showing up on our police beat map so there's there's just been a long history of trying to make really reasonable decisions about these kinds of uses with with the kinds of things that we could get available to us and like Miss Crocker was saying one of the the things that we were frequently doing at that time if we were approving alcohol sales we were as this particular applicant proposed naively conditioning them to not have the fortified liquors not have the large sales because the single sales were particularly problematic well low and behold one of the more disturbing moments of my career was to walk into a site that we had approved with those conditions and saw that they were selling single sales and that's when we learned that we can condition it all that we want they do not have to follow that condition and that and like was said here the ABC doesn't want that responsibility so the ones kind of cleanup measure we thought we had we don't have so that's just another piece of history as to how this has gone along one of the reasons that markets want alcohol sales is because it's a very high-profit margin that's where they make money and so you know and I again I have no objection to this store it's a lovely market but I see them the proposal is a public convenience and necessity as more of introducing an attractive nuisance to that particular site where that site is they've done a great job of cleaning up the dead end area but if you looked at the police statistics calls for service high calls for service across the street which is now vacant lot because of Midas being out of business there's the corner of college and Cleveland vacant lot there's plenty of vacant dead spots that continue around here I don't think that has changed I don't think the the issue of transient traffic through that neighborhood has changed you can always find well like Commissioner Holton there's there's a problem and you know there's there's campers and RVs parked along Cleveland along the railroad tracks there's there's there's just a lot of issues that come up in addition the proximity to the homeless services there's the living room there's a white crisis center there's the Morgan Street business is it it's in very close proximity to what has been a big problem on sale I mean on-site sales with the Belvedere the 440 Club and I think it's called round robin now but lots of issues just around that a that area that this neighborhood has been experiencing so there's something else I was gonna say about this history but I think you're getting the picture oh and also in the in that period of time the city was suing the Dutton Plaza because of their market there and some of the impacts of their alcohol sales and so again that was pre annexation so that's it was a period of time and and this particular use came forward with us looking at that particular site and saying hey this one fits our concerns and we we don't want to add another attractive nuisance to impact this neighborhood any further some might say what's one more right what's one more if it's a well-run neighborhood market but it is one more and I particularly think that's not a good idea I think if you do look at the at the calls for service there are even two with public intoxication directly on the site and they're not even selling alcohol so it's just a problem that it's not solvable I so appreciate our police department they're willing to tackle anything we throw at them and they do a great job but I'm not willing to vote yes on this I can't make the the nuisance finding the last finding and and it's because of my long history with this is an issue both as a neighborhood person and as a planning commissioner and so I'll be voting now thank you move on to Commissioner Holton so I really appreciate I actually came into the market and I wasn't dressed in my normal business fair I was wearing a pair of shorts and I got tattoos everywhere and you guys are actually really really probably don't even remember me because I just kind of passed in and passed out you guys are really really friendly I really really appreciated your guys' story it was very like Shawna said it's really clean it's very nice really well put together however I am of the hundred percent same camp that commissioner Cisco is in in that I'm just really struggling to find to make the findings for finding six I'm just really not seeing how another c up issued out to sell more alcohol in the public is going to be serving our public health and safety so with that being said I'll keep it short and concise and I'll just say I'm not going to be in support of this project I'm sorry commissioner Sanders thank you thanks staff and thank you to the applicant for coming in really appreciate it I'm it's really fantastic that it sounds like you're running a really good business listening to people you know talk about I mean apparently the the it's clean the cleanest tables I think was said today the friendliest staff the salads and the green stuff is fresh and apparently the chicken wings are screaming so and that's the civic involvement I think you mentioned donating water and being involved civically and when they're the young woman was here she said you know when there was a she goes to the store to get those tasty wings that whenever there's a homeless person out there you guys are really quick to have that person move along and the franchisee himself said that if there are people hanging out there you're really quick to move them along and that's that's great and you do all that business with the great wings and the salads and you don't sell alcohol so and and yet they're still even with your own mission and the mission of the young woman there's there's still a population of people hanging out that quickly get dealt with but still need to be dealt with and you know when I look at finding six and which is why I ask the questions like what does the rear fence actually do to make the findings different you know just a few extra steps the health and safety and welfare of the neighborhood it's hard if we're talking about someone needing to walk a thousand and two feet to satisfy that beer that bottle of wine you know Commissioner Cisco said it really well you know it's just one more right but it's just one more and you know I have a hard time with that so I don't think I will be supporting the project I do apologize but I just don't think it's compatible with the general plan thank you thank you Commissioner Carter excuse me can I just weigh in from it we're just checking on the resolution and some of you have been referencing finding number six and I believe that was the the finding that was made in connection with the last application so in our resolution if you could clarify I believe you're referencing finding e granting the permit would not constitute a nuisance or be injurious or detrimental to the public interest if you could just check your resolutions and as we go through if we could just be referencing the correct findings in the resolution at hand and go ahead and typically we start these discussions after we have read the the motion for the resolution I had thought it was going to maybe just be some light comments but we ended up really delving into it at this point I think you can finish your comments that I do want to remind the chair then that we will need to be making a motion and then we can have additional discussion as to the particular findings etc thank you thank you miss crocker it was in fact finding e that I was going to focus my comments on I I came into this hearing assuming given what I know about the neighborhood I do live very nearby I ride my bike on the smart trail that's a walk away I ride more often than I'd like to up and down College Avenue past the site and I see the at-risk individuals in the neighborhood that granting this kind of permit could put additional pressure on but I would like to remind the commission and I really appreciate commissioner Cisco's recounting of history and why we did what we did in the past but I'd also like to remind the commission that we've changed the zoning in this area and these types of mixed uses are the kinds of uses we envisioned for the neighborhood mixed use owning that we adopted and I think the applicant has demonstrated pretty well that they're willing to run a modern convenience store that would be appropriate I wish we didn't have the kind of social issues that made us question whether or not a well run convenience store that also happens to provide alcohol creates a nuisance in our community but I'm not sure that it's the approval of the permit that would create that nuisance but rather other social forces at work here that we're doing a pretty good job at bringing under control but I will agree that we're talking about a neighborhood that is that does put certain individuals in our community under pressure but I personally from what I've seen just here today can't see that this particular operation exacerbates that nuisance or our creates additional hazards and risks the public welfare I think staff has made a reasonable presentation and I think the the applicant I mean what we've heard today is this is probably a better place to make alcohol sales than many of the other alcohol sales places that are available there and they're being punished because they're kind of the last ones in but I think I will be supporting the proposal thank you Commissioner Peterson and then we'll have somebody enter the resolution sorry about that thank you chair I find myself this it was a remarkably challenging item and I think you're hearing that from my fellow commissioners certainly from my perspective as a general matter and it's come up a lot when we've had cannabis items alcohol is is widely and easily available throughout the City of Santa Rosa at a variety of different retailers breweries fog belt is not far away from here the other convenience stores the Safeway down the street you know we are a city in a state that has taken a pretty liberal approach to licensing alcohol sales you know I grew up in a state that had state liquor stores only it did not seem to affect alcohol use but you know I think this the general availability of alcohol in the city may not be ideal from a policy perspective but when it comes to the Planning Commission I find myself in agreement with Commissioner Carter I think that you know there's a lot of challenges that we're facing in terms of the land use issues and the findings were required to make when I hear from the SRPD that there's no concerns when I hear that they are frequenting it regularly it helps address I think for me the finding that's been challenging for my fellow commissioners which is finding e I mean is is one more liquor license gonna change the landscape is that gonna alter the challenges the city has with with housing and unhoused people and the issues they face I I don't think so so I will be able to make all the findings and be voting in favor of the conditional use permit thank you so let's go ahead and have somebody enter the resolution chairways did you want to share your comments and observations or you can hold that if you'd like into the resolution which I think we've got limited options here so I'll move the resolution of the Planning Commission of the City of Santa Rosa making findings and determinations and approving a conditional use permit to allow 711 an existing convenience store at 136 College Avenue to sell beer and wine for offsite consumption city file number CUP 22-052 and wave for the reading thank you second thank you so that was moved by Commissioner Peterson seconded by Commissioner Carter and we'll go back around and I apologize for moving things in the wrong order so we'll start with Commissioner Cisco you're not giving any comments I'm sorry you're not gonna comment oh okay I can sure I can comment now I just don't want to show you now I I have real mixed feelings about this I think I have to look at the the information that we have in front of us from the police department from staff from you know the visits that a lot of us have made to the store and while I don't think it's ideal I will be supporting the project and I'll be able to make all the findings so so that probably will be a tie vote it's not good if my math is correct so how can you please help me and give us some direction yes thank you chair weeks so at this point yes with a six-member Commission present this evening it is appeared does appear to be a split vote one option for the Commission would be if it remains a split vote would be to continue the item to I believe that your next meeting on September 14th I don't believe that we have any recorded absences for that and we should have a full commission although it will be a full agenda so we continue it until we have a full commission if we don't continue it the project just fails is that it's what's the result if we don't continue it and we just there would be no action in this instance there was not a previous action taken so it would be there would be no action taken so it would be an open permit that still needs action yes as we could come back and if there is a vote and the vote is three to three what would be the next step well then that would there would be no action taken and so then you could make a motion to continue to come back at a time when you had a full council or if somebody else had another substitute motion that they wanted to make for consideration they could do that as well but we haven't yet taken a vote so people may have had time to consider and think about all the thoughtful comments but it this is helpful to let you guys know where that would go but we haven't not taken yet the vote just a question if it does remain at the tie no action it does the applicant have the ability to appeal that to city council or what happens then that's not considered an appeal action okay so it's just done correct so I think we can bring it back at a later date or you could continue it to a later date to come back for the full commission so that we could get a definitive action that would be appealable if somebody wished to do so and that would require going through the entire staff report going through all of this again if you brought a new one if we continue it you can choose to close the public hearing we would have to ensure that Commissioner Duggan would come back she'd have to watch the tape and be prepared to vote you could also continue to leave the public hearing open in case anybody else wanted to comment at that time so recommendations from my fellow commissioners on which way we should go well I don't know if anybody has additional comments to share but if not then I would suggest that you go ahead and take a vote I'm sorry that we take a vote correct okay you need to vote on the action and okay it may end up not three to three okay and then if it ends up three to three we can have that discussion as to whether you would like to make a motion to continue to a full commission okay so let's go ahead and then run through the commission starting with Commissioner Cisco we're taking the vote no well I think don't we need to go through and see if we can make the findings and then come back and do the vote or since I skipped a step we do the vote I believe that I heard everybody as addressing the findings we were specifically talking about finding e formerly known as finding six so I have taken notes and I believe I have adequate information as to how you felt on the findings if anybody wants to make additional comments and change their prior comments or add to those you may do so but you can be free to vote yay or nay either way okay so let's go ahead and call for the vote Commissioner Carter aye Commissioner Cisco no Commissioner Holton no Commissioner Peterson aye Commissioner Sanders no chair weeks aye so that is tied three to three so we would go ahead and continue the item I'm looking for nodding heads while I talk continue the item well we would have to have a motion to continue the item to a date certain and then there could be discussion on that point if you wish and then a vote on that did we come up with a date staff was discussing September 14th but we're also going to have the bunny bunny appeal and the general plan study session on that date and I'd like to check and make sure that that will that the applicant will be available as well so we could actually do a vote to continue it to the next available date for a full commission and the applicant availability now I would like I would like to have a date certain so that we don't have to re-notice so we need to five minute break please we can come up with a date that's agreeable to the okay so we'll do a five minute recess okay five minute break thank you okay I think everybody ready to go yes okay I'm sorry I think yes we're ready and we've got some information on potential date for you it works okay so in looking at the Commission's availability as well as the applicant's availability the best date appears to be the October 26th meeting of the Commission and that would we would have a full seven-member Commission that date and it is available for the applicant team okay so help me with wording is it that we continue this item to October 25th and then if somebody makes a motion to continue it October 25th and then we vote on it it would be October 26th but yes I would ask for someone to make a motion to continue this item to the date of October 26th and then a second and a vote okay with with somebody like to do that to a date certain of October 26th thank you Miss Murray while I don't think you have to vote in favor of the item to make this motion I will move make a motion to continue to a date certain of October 26 2023 and I'll extend the laurel and second that thank you thank you so that was moved by Commissioner Peterson seconded by Commissioner Holton and if we could have a vote please Commissioner Carter hi Commissioner Cisco hi Commissioner Holton hi Commissioner Peterson hi Commissioner Sanders hi chair weeks hi so that passes with six eyes and we will see the item again on October 25th 2023 and with that unless there's any other business I will go ahead and adjourn the meeting I'm sorry did you say the 25th or the 26th what did you say 26 I want to make sure that you said the 26 I'm sorry you okay I feel like I'm in an airplane with my ears okay so October 26th to 6 and with that we will go ahead and adjourn the meeting thank you all thanks Ryan