What's up everybody and welcome to the week 8 edition of the Falcons final whistle podcast I'm Scott Bayer alongside Tori McElhaney and Ashton Edmonds following a weird wild crazy pick your colorful adjective and insert it before You get to a 37 to 34 overtime victory for the Falcons. That was a strange one Nonetheless the Falcons emerge from this game at four and four They are now sitting alone one game ahead atop the NFC south as we hit the pivot point in the 2022 season there is so much to unpack I'm betting that if you're listening to this podcast you probably watch the game and I bet that you would agree What the heck bruv as I'm reading directly from Tori McElhaney's notes.  I'm just gonna I normally say what are your takeaways Tori?   Truly this was wild wacky chaotic, you know all of the adjectives. It was At times it was hard to watch at other times. It was exciting to watch It was it was what it was it wasn't pretty it wasn't great It was what it was and I think that's perfectly fine I mean in turn at the end of the day they did get the win But I will say something that I kind of took from this game was There's a lot to clean up and there's a lot like to me this game didn't have to go all the way to The end the way it did I thought the Falcons had ample amounts of opportunities to win this game in regulation However, that didn't happen. So what do you do you try and win in overtime? And I really the best quote of the night for me was I was talking to Jake Matthews in the locker room and I Kind of said, you know, it wasn't a pretty game, but you still won How do you kind of weigh that in your head and he said look this is what Arthur Smith talks about it Doesn't matter what it looks like the goal is to win no matter what it takes However, we got a score whether it's defense offense special teams We all got to work together to find ways to win sometimes It's not always the prettiest but this was a great team win and I think that can be true all of these things I think can be true and that was something that I wrote about post game It's like all these things can be true the Falcons can and should play better But they still won and there should be happy feelings about winning. I really think that win probability charts It's a it's a dumb thing to track I think it's doesn't tell you a whole lot about a game the final score does But go take a look at the win probability graphic for Falcons Panthers There was a point there was a point where the Falcons had a 99.2% chance of winning the game and then there was another point where the Panthers had a 95% chance of winning the game and then you see that graph drop straight off a cliff down the other way and the Falcons emerge Ashton Arthur Smith actually said you all probably had to delete some stories, right? Yeah, no doubt Yeah, you and I talked about a sidebar idea on the quote-unquote game-winning drive for sure, which which ended with Marcus Mariota to Demir bird. Yeah, that was not the game-winning drive It was a matter of fact quite a few things happened after you literally told me to just scrap it like just just Start over so from the point that you had to scrap that story What did you make of everything else that happened? Man, it was it was truly a roller coaster of a win I would say, but I think the Falcons never gave up. They stayed resilient The Panthers definitely had a couple chances to win this game I don't think we've ever seen Anything like this at all, you know a kicker missing two back-to-back game-winning field goals I just you know, we were all on the edge of our seats. We were all thinking like okay What's going on? You know the Falcons probably were like, you know the game was probably over But I think in that second drive and over Tom, you know mark I feel like Marcus knew that he had to make a play in you know when he exploded for 30 yards up the left side To put the Falcons in field goal range. I think that showed Just his maturity and I showed his growth and that showed his confidence in himself and you know I think that's why the Falcons came out with the win I was talking to Rashawn Evans after the game. Well, not just me. There was a group of people there We don't have to say to me or anything like that. There was a group of people there and Somebody asked him were you able to watch that that that over time field goal attempt by by Eddie Pinheiro of the Panthers that was ultimately no good And he said that he acted like he wasn't watching and he turned around his face away from the field But he found a screen inside of the luxury suites at the field level And watched it so he was acting like he he wasn't watching but he couldn't help himself He found a screen and watched it and he said that he that it was just one of those Elation moments that they will have another chance and we've talked a lot about this team and Jake Matthews Reference did as well talk a lot about this team being fighters guys who don't quit and there are there are a lot of Opportunities for them to have been like well, that's it. We finally blew it our win probabilities that Is it went probabilities at 95% that's over, but they still kept going they made mistakes. It was Definitely not pretty exactly what Tori said, but they found a way to win here and they that's how they're gonna have to do it Sometimes it's not always gonna be pretty They don't have a pristine roster full of playmakers and depth and all these other things that luxuries that some other teams have So when it comes down to the end and you make a mistake you got to keep pushing and that's what they did here It's funny because Arthur Smith said after the game his direct quote It was it broke our way and sometimes you need that to happen. Yeah, I mean, that's so true I mean when you take we use you can take this game for what it was and no one's Excusing that the offense should have started off faster and started off hotter No one's excuse excusing the mini third and long explosives that this defense gave up No one is so many so many. No one is excusing that Carolina gave the Falcons every chance every opportunity to go and win this game And yeah, they did win but it came down to a break It came down to a breakthrough and at the end of the day like you take all of that for what it is And you move forward because you have to and I think when I look at this game Yes, there's so much to fix and I know some people were like tour You're being super hard on this team for like they came out and they played well and their fighters and their resilience Like yes, they are we know this about them. We also know that they are now competitive And I feel like this team is a team that when it comes down to it is going to get people talking in Many different ways and I'm and it's because of that that I feel like there is potential here I feel like there is potential in what Arthur Smith and this coaching staff is doing with this team in 2022 that is pieced together with guys on one-year contracts that are teeny tiny contracts in the grand scheme of contracts in the NFL plus a lot of rookies and a lot of guys on their rookie contract and on their rookie deal Because of all that I feel like yeah, sometimes you need a break and this was their break. Yeah, it absolutely was and Everything went back and forth. We've talked about how the Panthers kicker missed two Two field goal or two in an extra point that would have won it and then a field goal that would have won it in overtime Arthur Smith didn't even wait until fourth down to call on young Waco. Yeah, he did it and from 41 out Game on the line with as weird as that game was another miss would have just fallen Oh lord into the you know, absolutely Play-by-play But he it was a no doubter young way stuck it And Ashton you wrote about young way after this game what it is kind of coaches and teammates have to say about a guy Who's this is his fourth game winner? Yes. Yep, his fourth game where he just stuck it the guys got nervous of steel Yeah, for sure I mean every I would say every coach every player in the locker room have faith in young way to make that field goal for sure What was going through his head and I'm quoting young way He said I caught myself saying to myself you never know at the end of the day You got to be ready. There's no excuse to be like. Oh, I thought it was over. So I wasn't prepared. Nobody cares You just got to stay ready. It's not over into the whistles are blown So just stay ready locked in and be ready to go And I think we all know that young way is is a very calm and cool He has that calm and cool demeanor and we saw that displayed on the field You know in those last and that last two minutes stretching over time and you know He just wasn't fazed and he made the game when a field goal And I even have faith in young way that he was gonna make it I mean, he was efficient the whole game through all four quarters. He made three Three three went three for three on field goals and four for four extra kicks today. So You know, I think young way came a big when it mattered most Here's the thing about young way and I I love young way story and people who have followed the Falcons for years now No young way story. It's written on the back of their hand probably and he's become a fan favorite for what he's been able to Do and I think part of that is because of his story But you talk about feeling confident in what young way coup is able to do and that was something that Came up a multitude of times in post game press conferences and in open locker room It's like when you're in a game where the opposing kicker Misses not one but two kicks that would have sealed the win that would have given that team the win The value of young way coup I feel like should not be overlooked because of that in a game where you saw What happens when you don't have a kicker that can go out and win you the game now I'm not saying that it's just the kicker and all that kind of stuff, but We've seen because of the way the NFL is right now. We're seeing games being won on kicks left and right We're seeing games being won by one possession in the final minutes of the game This one just happened to go to overtime. So because of that, I feel like with young way coup You cannot overlook how important he is to this overall Operation I think he was even art. It was Marcus Mario to said after the game something along the lines of like I think young way coup is good for our team obviously, but he's also good for the sport that was like a Fantastic quote from Marcus. I think he said like also good for the league or something like that He said I can't explain how valuable he is not only to this team, but to really to football, right? Yeah Yeah, I loved that quote from Marcus and I think it does kind of showcase. I don't know. Yeah How important young way who is in multiple facets of not just the Falcons game But I think what Marcus was saying the league at large and okay So this game ended in a celebration young way coup throwing his helmet into the air heads up and And and being hoisted on his teammate's shoulders and a win is a win is a win, right? But this is the Falcons final whistle and we look at things in three dimensions Yeah, and it wouldn't be prudent of us to ignore some things that we've brought up a couple times some glaring Issues that need to be fixed. Is it better to make a fix with a win instead of a loss? Every player will tell you that it's always easier on a Monday after you win 100% But this was a flawed game. Yeah It still counts as a W But this is a flawed game and if the goal is to stay atop the NFC south You better get right in certain areas to worry. What were your biggest issues? Not issues with how they play but what were some things that you think need to get cleaned up Yeah, first off is I feel like the Falcons have to start better offensively. Yeah, like they just have to I can't I don't I'm not looking at the the play breakdown right now right in front of me But I feel like there were just way too many Not even three and ounce, but you're getting like really quick drives where you are having to give the ball back to Carolina without any type of points at all That first off like that because I did feel like we got well into the second They had 33 yards in the first quarter. Thank you case in point I feel like the first drive that I actually felt like was one that I was kind of Pleased even pleased with I think was well into the second Quarter, yeah, there's a 10-play 74-yard touchdown. Yeah, they looked really good. That was the one that was the one Drive of I think the first half that I was like, okay, there they are there There's the there they go, but for me. I just think this offense for it to be at its best They have to start quicker. They just do and and I I asked her we asked Marcus Marriota About that post game too and he said he took the blame in that first half He said I've got to be better that slow start. I wasn't executing. I've got to be better I've got to be cleaner and I appreciate that by Marcus But I do think it's the overall scope of the offense as a whole too The overall scope of the offense has to be better as a unit in the first and second quarter I feel like that's been kind of a Not an issue well kind of an issue over the last few games too I feel like we can point to other moments in the first and second quarter where this team was not executing at the clip It needed to now that's the offense. I have to give some two cents on the defense This defense was giving up way too many explosive plays on third and long and second and long even sometimes third and medium and That to me is not who this defense is we saw last week how against the Bengals The explosive plays that this defense gave up That's felt like it kind of carried over into this game and that's not something that this defense is known for That's not something this defense. I feel like has been It's not something that this defense. I think Has been known for over the course of the last two years under Dean Pease And I feel like Dean Pease has even said that as well So that needs to be cleaned up making sure that they are getting off the field on third and long Situations and then of course like finally just taking Advantage of opportunities that opposing teams give them I think that was something we saw in the Bengals game when the Falcons get the ball coming out of halftime And they go three and out they have a defensive stop and then they go three and out again And it's like that sandwiched together was the one moment that they had to really make something happen in that game And it didn't happen. I feel like there were moments in this game where the Falcons should have could have would have one in regulation had they Executed in those moments where Carolina is not performing at the clip that they need to so I just went on a very long Rant, but we're here for it. Everybody was taking notes, right? Yeah, I hope so if not, there's a quiz at the end of this You're out of luck if you want. Yeah, I You don't want to make injuries an excuse for anything and the coaches don't but you also have to look at a plain reality The ideal secondary for the Falcons is AJ Turrell Casey Hayward, Isaiah Oliver Jalen Hawkins and Richie Grant Against Carolina and I made a bunch of fun of PJ Walker not fun of him But I pointed out the discrepancy between his performance and Joe Burroughs. Yeah, nonetheless This secondary was Isaiah Oliver Richie Grant Dean Marlowe Cornell Armstrong and Darren Hall No disrespect to anyone that I just mentioned, but there is a There is a significant difference between the ideal version of the secondary and what was available to the Falcons today They overcame Arthur Smith made up made a real point to say to praise Cornell Armstrong The fact he never quit he kept rolling out there and he kept trying to do his best and he did make some place But I think that that played a factor here and Rashawn Evans said after the game He said if we can heal up a little bit I think that we can take our play to the to the next level Casey Hayward's on injured reserve. Yeah, there's no telling when he's going to be back But I think if they can heal up, that's another one of those moments where I think this defense can get better I think the injuries hurt them this time and if we're gonna talk about young way coup one of those kind of trusted Automatic guys. Yeah, he misses a field goal every now and then AJ trell is in the same category He's he's a guy that you trust deep ball to AJ side one-on-one. He's He's probably gonna knock it down, right? Maybe he doesn't every time But that's kind of what you feel and I think that having a player like that one of their top three players I think it hurt them in this game And I think that Falcons fans and the Falcons are obviously wishing him a speedy recovery, right? And it was interesting because Scott and I at one point turned to each other and I'm pretty sure it was when PJ Walker found DJ Moore it was in I think the beginning of the second quarter It was a 20-yard pickup down the sideline Cornell Armstrong was in coverage and it the he turned around and the ball went Through it felt like he was just like a centimeter Cornell was so close to making a meter away from an interception And instead it's a 20-yard pickup for Walker and more Scott turned and he was like it really feels like AJ if AJ is there Yeah, if it's AJ in that situation It's a different outcome and I think that is fair to say AJ has a few inches on Cornell Armstrong I also wonder how Carolina's Offensive play calling would have differed had a JTRL been out on the field like now. We're getting into like We're getting into the weeds of this, but I do wonder because I guarantee you I haven't looked at this I want to look at this tomorrow. I want to know how many times Cornell Armstrong was targeted Over the course of this game four quarters plus overtime. I want to know because it really felt like Live that it was happening Constantly and when you have a team that is constantly going after a guy like that I mean, it's it's almost a respect thing and we saw what like we saw last year There were quarterbacks and offensive coordinators actively choosing not to throw AJ Terrell's way that is that's just truth So because of all that it does make you wonder and I'm not in this again. This is not us saying You know anything is a second team all pro, right? Yeah, it's just it's just us Having conversations, right? Yeah, nonetheless, you know, when you look at Marcus Mariota, right? He's the NFC offensive player of the week one week the next week My mailbox full of people screaming for a Desmond the Ritter ruckus as I like to call it, right? And it goes back and forth and it probably will continue to because both Camps have very passionate followers, but as soon you look at Marcus Mariota's day Okay, 20 for 28 253 yards three touchdowns a pick 43 yards rushing including that huge 30 yarder, right? What did you take from Marcus Mariota's performance and his post-game press conference? Yeah, I think Marcus never gave up throughout the whole game I know he threw an interception early in the first quarter, but he bounced back He threw a touchdown to cow pits early in the second quarter Like I just think Marcus Marcus's mindset he he definitely has a resilient and never give up mentality And we've seen that through all four quarters. Yes He threw a crucial interception and overtime that the Panthers, you know, they could have won a game from that But you know the very next drive when the Falcons got the ball He did explode for 30 yards to the Panthers 24 yard line that set up coups field goals So I think Marcus, you know, it's like he doesn't dwell on his mistakes I would say and that maturity You know that comes from just experience of being in a league and I think, you know Marcus is starting to feel confident. I think you said that in this presser He's starting to feel like him like himself and he's starting to feel way more confident And I think that's gonna be very very crucial moving forward into the season Here's the thing and I want people to hear me when I say this I'm getting very heated in this in this podcast. I apologize, but I want people to hear this We were talking to Jake Matthews after the game. Jake Matthews was on fire. He had so many great things He was really appreciated it but He was asked about Marcus and what he said about Marcus I think is the reason why people calling for Desmond Ritter Maybe need to take a backseat for a little bit just a little bit He said Marcus has the personality that that where you really want to do well for him Just because of how well he takes care of us his attitude the way he comes to work every day I couldn't be happier that he's our quarterback. This is your veteran offensive that your veteran offensive line Captain captain this this is the guy who if you want to go to and get the real scoop on what the heck is going on with This offense, whatever you want to say, that's the guy you go to Jake Matthews has been in this league He he's played for a lot of different Falcons teams that have been at the top and been at the bottom For Jake Matthews to say that for Jake Matthews to be like this locker room has Marcus is back because of x y and z I Feel like everyone needs to take a heat check on that in that alone Yeah, like we talk about you know, oh when are we gonna see Desmond Ritter blah blah blah like I Feel like the Ritter Ruckus is always super loud in moments like this and I understand it I really do but you have to look at what this locker room Believes in mark they believe in Marcus this to me is really important And it's something that I feel like we haven't gotten a lot of clarity on until you have your captain Veteran offensive linemen saying I couldn't be happier that Marcus Mariota is our quarterback right now Yeah, and you have to listen to that and you have to listen to the locker room and listen to the fact that in good moments and bad Arthur Smith has stuck with Marcus Mariota, yeah, and Another thing is that they're in first place in the NFC South you're gonna make a quarterback change when you're Even though you're only four and four that you're on top of the division You want to shake things up now or do you want to try to find the consistency that has been elusive to this point in? Consistency with some gumption leads you to four and four That's what it does and ultimately as we push forward here. I wrote a whole column about this go ahead and read it Why don't you about the fact what it kind of means to be on top of the NFC South and week nine PS There are no gold stars being handed out and Kind of how they can stay there and talking to a bunch of different guys. It was all about okay great We're here now. How do we stay here? How's it possible because I'm sorry Tom Brady ain't gonna take three and five lying down He's just not and the and the Dennis Allen Whooped his former team the Raiders by a heavy margin this division while it's kind of become a bit of a punchline Because everybody was under 500 and it's an easy Kind of joke that you can make on Twitter.  How do you find consistency? How do you? Borrow from Arthur Smith here continue to be objective and not just hey we won But man, we're lucky we won and we if we don't fix this stuff. We're not gonna keep winning Every time I bring up strength of schedule, Tori rolls her eyes at me And that's a true story and so I even said it in the column There's no such thing as an easy schedule because it's all about who you play when you play Playing the Bengals in week seven. That was a rough go nonetheless What I'm trying to get out of here is that they need to find some Consistency and there are opportunities to stack Wins as a majority. I'm not saying going on on a crazy winning streak Okay So you have one game of separation as Darren Hall put it you got to keep pushing you got to keep working and fixing or Being in first place in week nine Could lead you to third place in week 18. Yeah I mean who gives a crap if you're in first place right now Especially considering is better mean a fourth at 100% yeah, absolutely, but I think from overall like mentality You want to be in this position? Yes, but like I Completely agree with kind of what they're saying It's like you want to be in this position. It's all great and that's all all wonderful and sunshine rainbows, whatever But you have to you have to continue producing and you have to find consistency I think that's the difference between this Atlanta Falcons team as they move forward is finding consistency And I do believe that yes while you can go into Monday and look back on this game and be like, okay We have to fix x y and z because we're not gonna be able to get get away with x y and z against x y and z You know, there are so many variables that we're talking about However, I think that that's so important for the Falcons to font to be able to find Consistency and really be hard on themselves really be objective because I like going back to what I was saying I do think that there is potential there because of the way the NFC South is playing right now Not just right now, but the way that these teams are constructed I think the Falcons have a good chance and a good opportunity and like what Arthur Smith said during the week The best way to be a playoff team is to win your division. So Go win your division and I think like even with all even saying all of that Like I know Scott you're absolutely right that the NFC South is kind of the punchline right now where everybody's talking about like They're not very good like look at what look at what what is happening in the NFC South But at the end of the day Falcons win the division or if anybody wins the division There you go. It's a home playoff. It's a bird like so for all I say all of that to say this the Falcons have a lot of work to do and I completely agree that there's no There's no being content in where they are right now because we are one play away from Them losing this game and the narrative around where the Falcons are right now is very very different So I'm completely flipped completely flipped the feelings around this team if they were to have lost that game. I Don't even want to think about it. It would have made our jobs a lot harder. I can tell you that for sure But I they won so they won you have good opportunities coming up against some of the teams that you are playing Both home and away over the course of the next month of the season Go out get you some wins because if you can win keep winning you can keep putting good play together Who who's to say that when we get to December that this isn't a much much bigger conversation? Yeah, and they're gonna be in the thick of it, and I think that's gonna be fun moving forward But you all can move forward with your day at this point because we're wrapping up here on Falcons final whistle You know the drill rate review, please subscribe to the Falcons podcast network. That would be super awesome You can get other quality programming like the Falcons audible with Derek DJ and Dave Or you can get Falcons in focus where we dive deep into the personalities of the 53 man roster enough for that funny voice But I did want to leave you with a quote from Darren Hall that I think Was just pure poetry and only last one line after that 37 to 34 Over time when his reaction to it. He says and I quote after what just happened. We must be living right Like that


From The Conversation, this is Don't Call Me Resilient. I'm Vanitha Srivastava. Mine comes to town, and all of a sudden it has this huge presence and you see flyers everywhere trying to recruit workers. But then, just as quickly as it comes, it can go. So once again, you've got disruption upon disruption. All of these things taken together can create the conditions for gender violence. When you think of diamonds, you probably think of romance and weddings and Valentine's Day. And it's not by accident that we think this way. A century of marketing has convinced us that diamonds symbolize love. In Canada, Glossy Magazine ads celebrate the purity of Northern Canadian diamonds as an ethical alternative to conflict diamonds. But this marketing strategy actually hides enormous social problems that people living near the diamond mines say they've experienced. This includes some of Canada's highest rates of violence against women. Today, I'm speaking with Della Green. Della is the former victim services coordinator at the Native Women's Association of the Northwest Territories. She is originally from Numgee's First Nations in Alert Bay. Also joining me is Rebecca Hall. She is an assistant professor at Queen's University in Global Development Studies and the author of Refracted Economies, Diamond Mining and Social Reproduction in the North. The story our guests tell today is not one of numbers. They say getting stats on gender violence is particularly challenging. Instead, they're sharing narratives gathered and collected through interviews and story circles about how lives have changed after the mines opened in 1998. One of the people Rebecca interviewed for her book told her, diamonds are said to be a girl's best friend. I'm not sure which girl, she said, because it's certainly not anyone in here. Thank you both very much for being here today. Rebecca, in your book you talk about this idea of how the glossy women's magazines celebrate the purity of Canada's northern diamonds by depicting these vast, beautiful and empty landscapes. But of course they're not empty landscapes. They've been occupied and lived on for thousands of years and they're full of complex relationships. And the diamond mines have generated a host of associated social problems. And these social problems include some of the highest rates of violence against women. Can you tell me about the relationship between diamond mining and violence against women? First of all, yes, you're right. The branding of diamonds is particularly interesting because they're known as one of the great branding stories of the 20th century. They became the symbol of love, romantic, heterosexual love for the most part. The Canadian diamond industry was established right when there was this international concern with conflict diamonds, popularly called blood diamonds. And so Canada was seen as this ethical alternative and the Canadian diamond industry is very much marketed itself as that. And of course the labour relations and the regulations in Canada are different than in other countries in the world, but doesn't change the fact that any sort of mining and certainly diamond mining has major social and ecological impacts. So when I was speaking to Northern women, I was interested in the relationship between gender violence and diamond mining. And for me, it wasn't this sort of causal thing that, you know, rates of violence had necessarily gone up in the north because of the diamond mines because the north is a place that's ever shifting for a whole lot of reasons. But I was interested in looking at gender violence through the stories of women to get a better sense of how they had noticed their gender relations changing. And what I heard was that the fly in, fly out structure of the diamond mines and what I mean by fly in, fly out is that workers tended to go for two week shifts where they would work really long days, you know, 12 hour days for 14 days at a time and then come back home to their community for 14 days. That structure really changed gender relations both at the household level and then also at the community level and it put a huge burden of work on the women. It also created some new inequalities in the households. All of these put together tend to exacerbate experiences of gender violence or maybe create them anew. Maybe we can turn to Della. Della, you were the victim services coordinator at the Native Women's Association of the Northwest Territories and you also led a talking circle to talk about some of these issues around the impact of the mines and I'm wondering what sort of burdens did you hear about? What sort of things did women tell you? I worked with a lot of women that had partners at work there and not the women that actually worked in the mines and their experience for their men to be working in there sometimes it would go more than two weeks. It would be three to four weeks or one week out of one and four weeks back in and that really did a large impact on the family. Not only that outside of the home, there was a lot of drug dealers in Yellowknife that were waiting for those guys to come out. We were not permitted to reach out and help those women. We were to wait for them to come to us. And I could remember at least four cases in my work relationship with those women where they didn't want to do anything because they're men with a breadwinners. They didn't want to go without. The housing was expensive. The food was expensive. The transportation they were provided for herself and the kids. There was no pressing charges. There was just accept it and take the abuse. And it was really hard for me to watch my co-worker, Marie, speak and bless her heart. She always briefed with me in the morning and then we would debrief at the end of the day. She had told me at one point when we were going hard at these things, she would say, Della, don't you ever get cold. Don't get angry. Don't get defensive. You know, it was a repetitive of one woman that kept coming back. Don't tell her that we've been down here before. We have to treat these women like they came to us for the first time. And she was really wise. She had been there 17 years prior to when I stepped in. She was a really big asset for the victim services. And I'm so grateful for her to have her as partner. And it was just her and I. There was only two workers for victim services for 20,000 population in the yellow night. And some of the communities outside the yellow night, they didn't want to go to their victim services because the community was so small. So they would come to us. So we looked after additional communities and there's 33 communities in Northwest Territories debriefing with Marie was a blessing for me because it was very harmful for me to watch these women go through what they went through. I had no idea what I was getting into when I took that job. And I really believe there were things going on there already before the diamond mines went up. But I believe the drugs and the alcohol played a big impact on those women as well. Can I also ask you how you got into that position? What took you to Northwest Territories? I lived in Victoria for 28 years. And that's what Dean and I met and we got married in 2003. He completed his degree in science of geology. There was no work in Victoria and there was a friend that was working in the mines and he came down to visit and left a whole pile of pamphlets and booklets on our coffee table.  There's lots of work. And I slept over it and I said, all right, okay, that's it. We're moving. And we had our two caps and our 99 Malibu and we drove up to Yellow Lake. And we had no place to live and we ended up staying with a friend of ours. How was it for Dean, for your husband to be working in the mines? We finally got our own place. It was one bedroom and we had nothing. He went and bought me a 1999 little cassette player with a radio on it. And someone gave us a food time mattress and we had no TV. We had nothing. I was laying in the middle of the living room listening to the radio and my cats were with me. And Dean had been in Snap Lake, which was one of the newer mines. And he was gone and I was looking up at the ceiling and I was thinking, what am I doing here? I was so isolated and I couldn't find anything that could support women. There was no programs. There was no gap together. I was lost for the first little bit when I moved up there. And I don't know what it was like for other women, probably the same. Rebecca, since this is your area of studying, what is it about extractive projects like diamond mining that creates these kinds of conditions for violence against women, for gender violence? We've seen in stories that people tell and in research really around the world that mining has often been associated with gender violence. But I think there's something distinct about this drive in, drive out or fly in, fly out model where the camp is away from the community. It creates this sort of space. Some people have called it a hyper masculine space in the inquiry for missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls, they talk about mine camps. It's this sort of space of exception where you're away from your normal community and family relations. And so there's this possibility things can shift and you feel that maybe you travel and you know what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas like that sort of mentality. But what's specific about resource extraction and mining is that it has a real history of attracting men that does tend to be a very masculine workforce. And this is just amplified when it comes to fly in, fly out or drive in, drive out because you need to be away from your home for a long stretch of time.  So it's often harder for women to take those jobs and to retain those jobs. So you've got a lot of men, often a lot of men men away from their homes. And it's nothing to do with the men themselves. It has to do with the structure and the space. It can create its own sort of culture that is different than the culture of the place. That's one of the things that can create gender violence. Then on top of that, you have the relationship between the camp itself and the home. And what I mean by that is you've got these people working really, really hard for these bouts of time. And like Della said, sometimes it's two weeks, but often it's a lot longer, coming home depleted, exhausted, and life has continued while they've been away. And so things have changed and there might be exhaustion on both sides, loneliness, alienation on both sides. And there can also be feelings of distance, like what's been going on while I've been gone. So I think you take all those really quite profound social challenges and you add to that the fact that mining is often really temporary and really intense. So when mine comes to town and all of a sudden it has this huge presence and you see flyers everywhere trying to recruit workers, but then just as quickly as it comes, it can go. So once again, you sort of got disruption upon disruption. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about the women that do get jobs in the mine. There's a range of women who end up working at the mine. I spoke with women from other parts of Canada who had experiences in mining who had come up specifically for this job. I knew to the north and then I also spoke to northerners who were working in mining for the first time. A number of women said this is exciting. This is a totally different industry for me and I appreciate the experience. I appreciate the salary. Even the women who really liked their work and were happy to have it certainly noted the extreme visibility that they had when they were at camp. It's a pretty masculine space. So a lot of them perhaps got along well with their coworkers but felt some discomfort. They noted that they felt like they were working in a space that wasn't really built for them. One woman I spoke to who for the most part quite enjoyed her job noted that there are no women's washrooms in the underground pit and that when she had a fairly personal health issue she could only talk to a male nurse practitioner. She even said that the clothes she had to wear only came in male size. For her these experiences were uncomfortable, not terrible. But then I did also hear some more pernicious stories. I spoke to one woman who worked in an office up at camp and she said that she felt this feeling of hyper-visibility and sometimes overt sexual harassment to the point where she started eating all of her meals in her room at camp and she talked about getting up a few hours earlier than she would normally have to so she'd go to the gym when there wouldn't be anyone else at the gym. I'd say the most troubling forms of gender discrimination that I heard about tended to be in women working in the more precarious jobs and especially in housekeeping. I spoke with a number of women who had worked as housekeepers and this is work that tends to be paid less it's often subcontracted so these people don't have the same labor protections as a lot of the other workers at camp and mostly they noted that they felt very vulnerable to sexual harassment. It's quite intimate work, right? Housekeeping, so they're cleaning workers' rooms and they're interacting with them in these intimate ways with very uncomfortable comments that the mine workers would make to them. One of the things that you said in your book was that the idea of violence against women or violence in family life becomes normalized. Why do you think that it becomes so normalized and also how do we make sure that we challenge that? For people who are trying to maintain the status quo, it's helpful for violence to be normalized or at least for us to think about violence that happens to individual people. When I first started doing this research this was in the Harper era when he said, oh, we don't want to commit sociology and at the time the Canadian response to violence was hyper individualized. It was all about we punished the criminal and we support the victim in these really limited ways and that's changed in some ways because of the work of all the organizations that contributed to the inquiry on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls for example, so there have been shifts in a positive direction but I think that still holds that this notion that violence is committed by bad apples and there's absolutely a tendency or racist tendency to assume that there's going to be higher rates of violence in particular communities and in particular racialized spaces and certainly in Canada there are assumptions about violence in Indigenous communities that are certainly based in racism and that don't acknowledge both past and ongoing settler colonialism and the ways in which that shapes violence and that it shapes interpersonal violence too, right? It shapes the violence that people experience in their intimate lives. The diamond mining industry is a really concrete example of a structural shift, of a social or cultural shift in a given space and how these social shifts can impact people's intimate lives. You guys basically met at the Native Women's Association of Northwest Territories. Did your work start to become more and more involved with the mines? Maybe you could start with Della. I believe right from the start it was always connected to the mines. I'm trying to think back to the women that I worked with. Every one of them were connected to the mines. And it was the same thing I guess for you, Rebecca. It sounds like the time at the center really inspired and informed your research. Everything that I've read that you've done is that you've made sure to include the communities that your research involves throughout the process. Can you talk a little bit about why it's important for you to do that? I first moved up to Yellowknife to work for the Victim Services Program at the Native Women's Association. The same program that Della worked for a few years later by the time Della was working for the program I had started a PhD doing this research that eventually became the book. So then I approached Della and our co-workers at the Native Women's Association and said I'd really love to do this work. You know, can we collaborate? And we did. And Della was a wonderful leader in the research as were many other folks at the Native Women's Association. And yes, that was really important to me because this is sensitive work and it's work that asks a lot of its research participants. I owe a huge debt of gratitude to every single person who told us their story when you're asking for something from a community. First of all they need to want to do the research and you need to be giving something back. I certainly feel like still very much in the debt of the community and I still want to keep giving back because, you know, there's a long history of extractive research in Indigenous communities and in the North where community members don't feel like their input is meaningfully being taken into consideration. And so in designing this research I really wanted to see it as a partnership and have done my best to make it a partnership. So of all the stories that you both have been hearing and listening to you've spoken to so many women what do you think needs to happen? What do you think needs to change? Or what do you think needs to be done? Della maybe we could start with you and what do you think needs to happen in order to make things safer for women? I'm just going to rephrase what I heard from an elder here. I think they need to be aware. You know, I don't think half of those women don't even realize what they're into. They just know the hurt and the pain that they're going through at that moment. I don't think they realize it's coming from the minds. They're so detached from what's going on. I think they need to be aware what actually really happened and when it started shifting. And the man too their first priority was to make money for the family and it just started to go sideways. The violence started coming in and I think they just got lost in the whole thing. So I think they need to be more educated. That's the way I feel. There is something to be said about the financial benefits. Would you say that there were some financial benefits to the minds and the presence of this industry? I couldn't see any benefits. I just doubt what was happening to the women there and then I had to deal with the court system I had to deal with the RCMP. I didn't look at the benefits what the minds were doing. What do you think needs to happen to make things safer for women? I have two answers. The first is the more immediate more practical answer. When we did these interviews a lot of women spoke about the relationship between and what they saw as racism against Indigenous people. They talked about the need for better cultural awareness training for mind workers coming from other parts of Canada. There is quite a bit of engagement between communities in the minds but more leadership when it comes to Indigenous communities in training the minds and how to engage respectfully with the communities. A lot of women also spoke about more childcare supports in the north and hard, hard workers but of course these sorts of organizations around Canada more resources are always needed another practical thing would be better support for mind workers who are also caregivers who are also parents who need that flexibility. When it comes to the more radical what can this world be the real commitments I heard when we were doing these interviews with community well-being and taking care of one another's relations taking care of relations to the land you know mining as a form of economic development asks so much of communities and doesn't give a whole lot back when it comes to community caring relations with one another in relations to the land. So we're in this moment now where three of the four diamond minds are still in operation in the Northwest Territories and the other two don't have a super long mind life projected so I think it's this moment where we can listen again to these stories that people have told about their experiences of the mine and think okay well what would northern development look like that put care at the center that put land-based relations at the center and these are questions that people in northern communities have been asking and answering for generations and so really what it is now for me as an outsider and I think for other outsiders is to listen to the answers to those questions and make those answers the guiding principles when it comes to whatever comes after the diamond mines. Thank you both so much. Well thank you Manita so much for having me. Have a good day. That's it for this episode of Don't Call Me Resilient. Della and Rebecca thank you so much for sharing your experiences about the communities living near the diamond mines and we'd love to hear what you're thinking about this conversation. I'm on Twitter at writevenita that's at w-r-i-t-e v-i-n-i-t-a and don't forget to tag our producers at conversationca use the hashtag don'tcallmeresilient and if you'd like to read more about the diamond mines in the north go to theconversation.com we have all kinds of information in our show notes with links to stories and research like what you heard today please help spread the love tell a friend about us or leave a review on whatever podcast app you're using. Don't Call Me Resilient is a production of The Conversation Canada this podcast was produced with the grant for journalism innovation from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada the series is produced and hosted by me Vinita Srivastava Hailey Lewis is also a producer and Vaishnavi Dandekar is our sound producer our sound producer is Lija Navado Reza Daya is our sound designer Jennifer Morose is our consulting producer Lisa Verano is our audience development editor and Scott White is the CEO of The Conversation Canada and if you're wondering who wrote and performed the music we use on the pod that's the amazing Zaki Ibrahim the track is called Something in the Water