Now I'm in an awkward position because I'm going to introduce the next speaker from here. We have a panel, a really fantastic panel with Lucy Ives, an established writer and poet who is doing a book on Madeleine's writing, and then she'll be joined by Leopold Lambert, editor of the Phenambulist, but also was a close colleague of Madeleine in her later years.  So let's just see how this, how does this sound to everybody? Does this sound okay? Okay, thank you. So speaking of precedence, because precedence came up just now, I wanted to start out today by going back a little bit to the late 1960s in New York City. And I don't mean for this to, here we go. I don't mean for this to seem too narrowly historicist, but I think that this is an important point of departure because it helps us to see how Madeleine Ginza's work is connected to conceptualism and conceptualist leanings in contemporary poetry and experimental writing, as well as other strains of text-based art. And I don't mean to imply that Ginza's merely conceptual in her orientation, that would be way too limiting. But I do want to provide a brief introduction to Ginza's early writing in the 1960s and 70s, which I hope will allow you to see her efforts in their contemporary relevance and importance. And most importantly, in their intelligibility, because indeed her work is too often described, when it is described in broader trajectories, histories, as being difficult or unintelligible. And not just that, but being a product merely of her own fancy rather than an engaged response to her times. So in this very short talk today, I'll say some things about Ginza's early prose and poetry, and I'll also present one of the unpublished poems that I've come across in my work in Ginza's archive. And I'm also going to outline as I introduce you to this writing the ways in which I think Ginza's literary output should be understood in the years before she began her collaborative work on the Reversible Destiny project. So I'll discuss her poetry and prose in relation to this project, but also in their distinctness from it. And these remarks are adapted from an essay that will appear in the May 2018 issue of Freeze Magazine and are also related to a longer, more involved academic article. Also briefly just to say about the title of this Visionary Cybernetics, Cybernetics as we know is a transdisciplinary approach to the study of or implementation of regulatory systems. And I like to use this as kind of a quick gloss for some of the ways that I'd like to speak about Ginza's ambitions as a poet and a philosopher. So in the spring of 1969, the poet, prose writer, and artist Madeline Gins joined a collaborative effort to make artworks and writing on the streets of Manhattan. Along with John Giorno, Lucy Lepard, Adrian Piper, and Hannah Wiener, among others, she contributed to the final issue of Vito Acconci and Bernadette Mayer's legendary magazine Zero to Nine, which took the form of a special supplement titled Street Works. And you see the title page here. Ginza's submission was a group novel for which she asked the reader to quote, please finish these sentences and return this paper with the ultimate goal of creating a group novel and historical novel and exploration of the nature of consciousness. Also included in Street Works were photographs by Gins and Arkawa of a stylized house floor plan laid out on a plastic sheet that could be unfolded on the sidewalk. This floor plan also appears in the end papers of Ginza's first book, 1969's Word Rain. So the end papers here. And I will read the whole title of the book is Word Rain, Open Parentheses, or a Discursive Introduction to the Philosophical Investigation of G-R-E-T-A-G-A-R-B-O. It says, suggesting the coincidence of the floor plan and this image in the end papers, a connection between the exploration undertaken in Street Works, the group novel, and Word Rain's ecstatic experimental prose. In the questionnaire included in Street Works, Gins announced her interest in the possibility of a novel collaboratively composed by individuals who might also be its readers. In Word Rain, she began to describe the complex relationships entailed by a textual situation in which the reader and the writer are not strictly speaking, divergent, or separate. A situation in which authorship is extended to the reader to, even as the writer looks on, observing and recording the results of this invitation along with the meeting that ensues. So before I turn to some readings from Word Rain, I want to say a little more about Street Works and why I think that this publication is so significant for our understanding of Madeleine's work. This might sound like a sort of minor mention in the history of conceptualism in the U.S. However, I think it's important to emphasize that many descriptions of poetry's interaction with this particular mode and moment of art making have tended to focus on the static materiality of language to the detriment of descriptions of interactivity. Though there are many exceptions, conceptualism's role as a critical capstone to trajectories in American art, including modernism and minimalism, has entailed the reduction of language at times to a, quote, kind of object as the critic Liz Kotz has written. Accounts of language-based conceptualism emphasizing what the artist Roy Ascot in his 1966 essay on behaviorist art and the cybernetic vision termed the, quote, field of behavior are more rare. But we can see that with Street Works, which is a project that takes place on the streets of New York and requires the behavior and input and awareness of friends, colleagues, and strangers, language does not function simply as an object. It's a site, it's an enticement to act, and it is a form of action. Ginza's group novel called for action. Unlike the group novels created by the artists Douglas Hubler and Andy Warhol, for example, Ginza's project was not a locus for confession, nor was it really an anthology of gossip. Like Vido Akanshi's poetry, which played with the instructive nature of writing in marks of punctuation, or, for example, Dan Graham's poem, this is one half of the schema in the poem. This is the poem from 1966, a list of materials for the creation of a poem. Ginza's early writing in Street Works, and in her first collection, Word Rain, was self-reflexive, but they also do something more. Her early writing directly engaged the cybernetic qualities of the conceptualist impulse by deploying sentences and prose fragments as a means for holistic control of discourse, the human body, and social relations, confusing the agency of the writer with that of the reader. And this occurs in a manner that reflects Ginza's literary and transdisciplinary concerns. And this is what I mean by kind of visionary cybernetics. Ginza's interest in systems and communication often went beyond description of what is merely possible into an intensely imaginative and speculative realm. She treated the slow dawning of the computer age as an incitement to produce art. So that's an image of Word Rain, which has a sort of truncated Misan Abhim effect going on there. And this is quite fitting because Word Rain is a book about reference to both the act of reading and the act of writing. But the speakers of the sentences of Word Rain is not quite the writer, nor is she quite the reader. She is someone who exists in relation to words and who is aware of the possibility of reading as well as the possibility of writing. She is aware of the possibility of sensing writing, whether looking at it, touching it, dwelling in it, even sometimes smelling or tasting it. She writes about these possibilities as well as their possible results. And this is a passage from Word Rain. Read this with me. Read that with me. Read with me. Read objects, tables, toes, toads, tails, tin, trains, type, tears, throat. Read, write. Read, write. This is only life. Only I write and read. If you've misplaced me on your own, bring me up again from off the page. I give you this book for a present. It comes with a room, light, a country, sky, and weather. I will arrange for you to be made aware of these in detail. You may look at everything. You will see only what I see. Look at this sentence. So Ginza's narration in Word Rain places unusual emphasis on the experience of being simultaneously a producer and receiver of writing. Experience, tactile, olfactory, temporal, visual, et cetera is folded into Ginza's sentences, and the sentences in turn produce such experience which must be re-described in a sort of feedback loop. Word Rain might thus be a memoir of the present, of the very instant of writing, a sort of homeostatic temporality occasionally difficult to differentiate from the biochemical mix that includes the body of the writer slash reader as well as the interface of the page. There is a thickening here, a layering of sensitivities and sensors of data and processes over physical and textual space. In a radical re-imagining of the traditional hierarchy of figure and ground, Ginza makes the theme of her writing her writing as well as your slash the reader's reading. And so, the literature's process itself for the literary texts, traditional mimetic ends. And so, Word Rain's writing sometimes schematically envisions its own sentences and paragraphs. I'm just going to jump forward to show you that. Sometimes it becomes quotations derived from other books, other texts. It makes everything even that which it records and repeats. Nothing can be taken for granted, not the presence of the reader, not the time of reading. Even the time of reading has to be made. And I want to read one other passage here. In this case, a good idea which I have given you is to do the opposite of what I say in spite of yourself. Please don't touch the book and no kissing. Think of others before you think of yourself. Don't think of your family and the danger they are in at every moment. This is not the place for that. Perhaps the best way you could help me now would be to disappear, vanish. Don't read the next paragraph on this page. Forget that you have ever seen this book. Scream for every word you will not see. Perceive nothing. Lose track of me. Kill me. And I hope that I am assured that you will not read between the lines. It's an extraordinary book. This is the last page of it. I should also say that WordRain has no direct American literary antecedents. Though it superficially recalls various stream of consciousness writings or Gertrude Stein's, Bristlin's syntax, its strategies are specific to its own obsession with the reception of writing that occurs even and especially in the very midst of writing. This interest in the flickering, oozing, chaplain-esque persistence of consciousness as recorded in and affected by the work of art is not easily reconciled with modernism's obsession with literary form and the dramatic upending of academic categories. Nor does Ginza's work dovetail neatly with late modernist and postmodern literary experimentation. You can't quite group her with John Cage or Jackson Maklow who are so deeply concerned with chance operations and collage and Yoko Ono's fluxus tasks are meanwhile more meticulous in their articulation. There are some resemblances between WordRain's complex sentences and those of poets such as Lynn Hyginian, Bernadette Mayer, whom I already mentioned, and Leslie Scalapino. But Ginza's friend, the poet Hannah Wiener, a cybernetically inclined writer and performer, is probably the most convincing analog. In a piece titled Trans-Space Communication, Wiener has an observation that I think is relevant. She says, The amount of information available has more than doubled since World War II. In the next 10 years, it will double again. How do we deal with it? She continues, At the moment I am interested in exploring methods of communication through space, considering space as space fields or space solids, through great distances of space, through small distance, such as the space between the nucleus and the electrons of an atom, through distances not ordinarily related to the form of communication used. Wiener treats the poem as a tactical event, an act of communication that occurs through great distances of space. In her 1982 collection, Code Poems, which some of you may be familiar with, there are lists of encoded flag hoists that promise to transmit information even if the exact semantic messages of these lists are not always clear. While Ginz's sentences in WordRain are more concerned with the time of writing in a domestic setting, they make similar claims regarding the significance of spaces, techniques, media, and technologies of communication and the ever-increasing amounts of information available. WordRain's sentences are complexes of signals that transmit and confuse sensation, allowing the reader to become an energetic receiver an accumulator, a transformer even, and I think most visionary of all, the avatar of the writer. So I think it has already been suggested it's difficult to categorize Madeline Ginz in a professional sense to call her just a poet or an artist or a philosopher. And she, in her work, she moves in and out of prose and poetry all the time. And in her 1984 collection, what the president will say and do, she returns to more sort of traditional, lineated poem form. And although in 1994 when she publishes Helen Keller or Arakawa, this is another sort of novel-like piece of writing like WordRain, she's always stretching these categories in highly original directions, blending observations about the activity of consciousness, language, English syntax, as well as her own body and environment with the rye humor regarding the oddness of the very existence of meaning. So although what the president will say and do does not appear in the exhibition, you can see both WordRain and Helen Keller or Arakawa in the exhibition. I wanted to talk about this book a little bit as well. Does that mean that I'm, okay. Sorry, I did not realize that. I'll just, I'll go quickly here and just say that this is an interesting book about, it's a book about authority, essentially. And it contains various different forms. There are aphorisms like these, which I find to be very funny. These are sort of answers to the question of what the president will say and do. For example, always place infinite systems, hang six scarlet bands to come within inches of the floor, et cetera. And you can see there are these other strange elements that are included in the book, these sort of like essay stories. And then finally, this is the end of the book, and I just wanted to show this to you because I think it's hysterical and relevant as they say. I thought I would just point out this one line in the list of ways in which the president reacts. The president says, it made me very, very sad. I thought that was funny.  Really great. Okay, so I'm out of time, unfortunately. But I just want to conclude with one of the poems from the archive, which is also included in the exhibition, which is this poem, which is a poem that is about love as a schema, but also about, you know, speaking of the cybernetic, the impossibility of reducing it to a gesture of control. And I'll just read this poem for you. How do I love thee? Let me graph the ways. I love you past the margin of error to where the seepage of the calculus knows how to reassemble, to where parody outstrips itself. I love you diagonally as mind holds body. I love you with the sonic union of the point. I love you with the wraith of asymptotic breath and with the parabola, which phrases speech. I love you in any transformation as in above. I love you as transformation, near and by. Any unit holds you. So I'll stop there. Thanks. Great. And now we'll hear from Leopold Lambert. Hi, everyone. Big, big thank you to Irene and Tiffany for having organized both the exhibition and this event. I think for many of us, it's quite an emotional moment for this to happen, maybe much less for, much less, because we might have needed some sort of validations to recognize the work of Arakawa and Madeleine Geens, but maybe more so because it allows us to share this work with a bigger amount of person, including people in architecture, which I'm always very thankful for this kind of conversation to happen. So today I will speak about a political reading of their work, which I should say is a little bit difficult to do because when you speak about your own work, you're only able to damage your own work, so that's kind of okay. But when you speak about other people's work, then it becomes much more complicated. So I would say it's very much my own interpretation of their work. It is a very sort of unsubtle reading of their work, so I would maybe bring that to your attention. But that being said, I think it's actually a very important way also of reading their work, in addition of all the other sort of propositions that have been made so far and that will continue to be made throughout the afternoon. So one thing I want to do is to, before really talking about their architectural work, I want to talk about maybe what I consider to be, maybe not as much their exact antithesis, but let's say some things that I would call models of inclusion in versus the revolutionary paradigms that they might embody through their architecture. So for me, this sort of paradigm of inclusion goes through the work of American designer Henry Dreyfus. And I think it allows us to see how architecture is systematically designed around a set of standards, a set of bodies, of normative set of bodies, which have much less to do with a question of majority or a question of average as we usually think of normality, but very much in a question of power. The normalized body being the body that very much crystallized a certain set of dominations of power and it is very much a racialized body. It is a gendered body and it is a body involved in ableist logics. And so obviously when it comes to that and when it comes to work that has been trying to sort of make explicit this normalized body around which architecture and design are built around, we can think of obviously of near-fert and architect's data and maybe, I don't know, Le Corbusier's modular or this kind of paradigm. And then what I like with Dreyfus is that he sort of includes what we would again call inclusivity in trying to sort of very much includes differentiation in the types of body around which architecture would be built or designed in this case because he was an industrial designer. He would even include a gendered differentiation but I think if you look at his work you would realize very quickly and his work is just a symptom of something much bigger. It's not about his work per se, but that very much this gendered differentiation of body is very much a sort of calibration of a gendered attribution of labor and the division of labor in particular in the domestic spaces. He would go as far as designing for people with disabilities, being in WorldShare or walking with crutches or canes and I'll go back to the idea of the cane a little bit later. And obviously around this normative body comes a normative space that keeps being involved in this sort of loop between the norm informing designs that itself reinforce the norm and so on and so on. So I think the various attempts at sort of something we might call inclusion that Dreyfus may have been involved with is very much reinforcing in a very strong manner this loop, this violent loop. And we can see as well how there is a question of the proportionality of violence. It's like the further away you are from the dominant bodies the more the violence of design will sort of be expressed to your body. And we've been talking a little bit about children earlier and we've been showing also some folks that were maybe a little bit more aged in the Mittaka laughter earlier and I think that's also something we can... there's a sort of universality of this violence as children and elderlies that we might experience regarding normative design but I think in the more specificities we can also see how design is very much involved in various logics of structural racism, structural misogyny and ableism. So we can see how far this violence of the norm informing the space and the space itself, reforming the body is operating through Dreyfus drawings. I mean he himself talks literally about something he calls human engineering which I think also says a lot about how the loop is complete like it's not just about the norm informing design the design itself is very much trying to re-influence the body and to somehow push it towards this norm. And so I think what basically those examples are telling us are first and foremost that they think what a body is because they very much show us what a body is and the various attempts at inclusivity are perhaps suggesting that we might not know what a body is but somehow there's still some sort of underlying truth that a body might be something that is within the possibility of knowledge. So a text that my good friend Minha Fahm and myself have written in 2015 was very much trying to go against that with maybe a funny big title for the new Inquiry Race Spinoza in a t-shirt but the subtitles being a manifesto for designs that do not know what bodies end. So like it's double negation. It's not that we don't know what body is or sorry it's that we don't know what body aren't. So we were interested in this double negation in the impossibility to sort of establish any definitive knowledge on the question of bodies. We've been looking at various examples maybe less of those ones but others. I mean we're going back to come the garçons that has been a very interesting collaboration between Reika Wakubo and Madeleine Ginz in the very last months of her life. So I was lucky enough to participate in as some other of us. And so that's something that we particularly see when it comes to closing because of its more immediate relationship to the body but I think I'm interested in looking at how architecture also has been informed in that so another sort of body of works that I find particularly interesting in putting in dialogue with the work of Reika Wakubo and Madeleine Ginz the oblique functions that Claude Parrot and Paul Virilio have been sort of thinking about in the 60s all the way to the 90s. Very much involving, you know, we were talking earlier about a non-flat architecture and I think that has a lot of resonance with the architecture of Reika Wakubo and Madeleine Ginz. Even though I would say I'm fairly, fairly confident there's no box with like any architectural reference whatsoever. I think I can say that with pretty high confidence. And so going to their work themselves and looking maybe at some drawings that sort of would have something that could echo those very rigid and normative drawings that Dreyfus have been establishing. I think we can look at that and in particular the way they've been mapping what they call themselves landing sites and thinking of bodies in a much less essentialist manner. I'm sorry, where am I? We talked also about Helen Keller which I think remains like a fundamental figure of the work of Reika Wakubo and Madeleine Ginz when it comes to architecture. And I think everything was said by Momosa and earlier in the idea that it's not so much, we're not talking so much about a person that we sort of assign the label of disability and sort of see how they replace this disability with some other skills but much more how we are so closed-minded on the possibility of sensory systems that the body might embody and how to use your words. Helen Keller was using senses that we don't really have names for. I thought that was extremely helpful to think that way. And so looking at the architecture itself of Reika Wakubo and Madeleine Ginz, I think we can very much see how there is no attempt to inclusivity, there is no sort of essentialization of some bodies that would probably work better than others in their environment but very much an environment that challenges everybody into words. And that does not necessarily and that is also not necessarily meant to be fully experienced which is also a big difference with a sort of very optimized vision of architecture as a fully experientiable space. So looking at different architecture I think we can very much find a similar approach to that in various ways. In the Bioschleve House in particular and in relationship as well to the way the body is also perceived in space with this sort of play on the height of the building in relation to bodies as well. And so, yeah, I like very much like this photo because Madeleine is on it and it was a very fun lunch. And so, going back to those very joyful and playful photos of the Mitaka Laugh I think some things that struck me when we had talked again with Mouyo-san when I realized an interview of her that you can listen online is her talking about one of her close relatives that usually walks with a cane going back to the idea of the cane on flat floor would not actually need one in the loft and I think there is a sort of very closed-minded way of reading that as a sort of resurrection of the body by the loft when actually we could think much more closely that the cane is not so much something a sort of prosthetics that helps that would help a body to sort of deal with its own degree of disability but very much sort of a symptom of the highly normative nature of our common environment I mean the flat floor being one I mean someone mentioned I think it was Julian earlier who mentioned like, yeah, I mean when you don't see your flat floor it's a little bit baffling but I think Madeline would very much often say that flat floors are not made for human feet to start with I mean we don't have flat feet do we it's very much made for a sort of optimization of the use of the floor by things maybe like the wheel so like more vehicles or and so all that being said again like I said that maybe that's my own interpretation that maybe the word even political would not necessarily be a word that Madeline and Arakawa would like to hear necessarily associated with their work in such an explicit way but I think I cannot resist also and also to very much echo with Lucy's presentation to finish with my favorite poem by Madeline in this book of what the president will say and do so you have to go a little bit fast but I can also add up a little bit to it and I'll try to read it even though I have there's absolutely no ways that I will have the same eloquencies that Lucy demonstrated but okay let's go all men are sisters there simply could not have been a woman who would have said left side, right side then stuck to it for a woman it is a question of at least seven sides at least one of every of every you you such subtlety contributes to the subtle difference one thing men haven't realized is that unlike them all men are mortal women do not die this makes all the difference although some women have been brun bitten by sheer syllogistic brun have had times pretended most women do not look like themselves although many women do assume the form of woman some are men other gas and electricity and still others are indistinguishable often being constructed of living material women are a volatile force in society and are such dangerous and should not be left near adolescent I think is the following and this is from 1984 with yeah very high with our current I love that you say that and I will end up on that because I just so much love this one so thank you very much great thank you so much those were wonderful presentations and now we're going to put Lucy and Leopold in conversation I know they've been emailing each other but they actually just met today and have a really shared interest in Madeleine's work especially and after their conversation hello Leopold hi one thing that I didn't that I didn't get to say and I feel I would be remiss if I did not do this is just to mention that the two books that I talked about by Madeleine Wordreign and what the president will say and do both of these books are out of print Wordreign is very difficult to come by I see although what the president will say and do is somewhat easier to find however I want to emphasize that both of these books can be obtained by you from the internet and various booksellers and they are so wonderful and you can just you can you can do that and you can have them and I so I'm hoping that we will be able to produce a collection of Leopold's writings so that all of these books can be collected together along with her unpublished works but I just want to emphasize that these books are out there and that they they need love so please please look for them and also for Helen Keller or Arakawa which is also out of print I want to say that what the president will say and do is also available in open access of it, somewhat less beautiful than the book but nevertheless legible so to go to the point of this sort of like the normative body I think there's a resonance with that notion and a kind of like normative reader or things around literary genre that I see Madeline fundamentally resisting but not even responding to she just does something else it's not about a response to that she's already doing something else right out of the box and I'm just curious about your experiences with Madeline as a writer and as a poet if you could talk to us a little bit about how you experienced her in that way that's funny I'm more used to actually interview people than to be interviewed but okay yeah exactly well I think maybe I can answer about that maybe going back to also something I wanted to talk with you about because I was very glad you said that sort of addressed the fact that you tend to perhaps a little bit too quickly associate her writing and their work in general as being deliberately unintelligible which I also think is is not a very fair assessment and I think similarly in the various conversations that we could have they would be they would need a little bit of a work to sort of to sort of take the time to interpret what had just been said like Madeline was not someone who was sometimes a public figure and you know at the office or somewhere else being like someone else or something she was very much a holistic person for that matter so when you would speak with her she would tell you things that you would think are very complicated to understand also because even though they might not be a big reference towards architecture I think they are as you show a little bit there's a lot of reference in their work to to philosophers and to literature work and to poetry work and understanding very much how a word could have possibly been corrupted by decades if not centuries of sort of additional meaning to it would probably leave let them to create their own words a new to express exactly what it was that they wanted to say so when you work with her on a daily basis sometimes it has its challenges because you you just ask okay should we do it two feet or should we do it one foot it's like well it's a very interesting conversation based on a very simple question but I think that's sort of the magical part of it in how much it allows to also participate to this project with your own sort of understanding of what it is that was being said and I really don't think there was any sort of I mean I think the the anecdote about talking for 10 hours the first time the first time you meet even though you probably would guess that it was going to be five minutes is very much showing that there was no wheel of obscurity for the sake of obscurity and there was very much a very very big generosity in talking as long with anyone really I mean at the end of her life Madeleine had had someone coming at home a nurse coming at home and the conversation they would have would be very much to the same to the same of the same nature that she would have with anyone else and so I think that's really that was really great to be able to also build your own meaning based on what you would hear but I don't know I would like to ask you about this relationship to intelligibility or not intelligibility since you started with it well you know one way that you can think about and really because I did not I did not know Madeleine and so I'm a person who relates to her through her writing and through her books and I just want to write that out that may already be obvious to you but there's a great deal of ignorance of the person that is a part of how I act as a reader of her work but to say that there's something about you know when you go and look at listings and different descriptions of word rain online in library catalogs or on the part of booksellers often it's referred to as an artist's book so what is an artist's book an artist's book is a book by an artist that's not it's a sort of vague description but it's a kind of book in which certain kinds of conventions not only are mutable but we expect them to be altered or touched or affected in some way and this book does that very much in one of the slides that I showed you could see a photograph of a hand reaching up to touch the page and this is also visible in the copy of word rain that Irene has placed in the exhibition so this has nothing to do with what we consider literature right this is a sort of like visual intervention do I need to interpret this engage in an act of interpretation in order to understand what this is yes and no and it's that yes and no that I use also as a reader of Madeline's work so in other words when I read her work I also look at it as she continually in her writing instructs me to do as well so I'm just doing what she says honestly and when I engage in that kind of reading act instead of relentlessly attempting to find the meaning of what she says quote unquote then I'm fine I don't have any problems because I can just look so that's my recommendation around these issues in relation to intelligibility and the same could be said although what the president will say and do doesn't have the same kind of artist books interventions in it and Helen Keller Arakawa sort of doesn't either although there's some sort of typographic interventions there you can still engage in that that looking and so that that is how I I do not find that there's an issue with intelligibility but that also makes the works maybe impractical as literature so that's another but that's another question so different one and and so since you're writing specifically about Madeline's writing do you do you actually stop somewhere in the bibliography or do you actually go all the way to the to the very last manuscript that she was writing well okay so about what I am what I am writing right now I mean I'm writing some articles about her work and my primary work in relation to her writing is as an editor so I'm not writing a book about her I would like to do that at some point sure but I'm editing a collection of her writings and so far I'm still I still find myself in the beginnings of this and I'm at this point as you're seeing from my talk of fascination with her work in the late 60's and 70's there's a great deal of poetry in her archive that is that poem that I read is one of them from the 60's and 70's it's just extraordinarily beautiful and it's unpublished and I really hope that it can be published but so the goal is really to go through everything and yes to the the final work and and everything like that but there's just an enormous amount of material and she changes over time to her interests change and so it's also a challenge to sort of figure out how does it all like how does it all connect and maybe it's not necessary to come up with some theory or like perfect through line I mean honestly usually that's not that helpful around someone's work to sort of like be able to see it as a whole like it can contradict itself it can do things that are not anticipated are forgotten and so on and so forth so yeah I think that's my answer to your question but I want to ask you more about if and and how you know did you ever like write with Madeline or was that part of practice that you guys shared no I would have been I would have been very embarrassed I suppose but but some did yeah but more of an essayist than an actual writer so but no I can actually share something funny about what we worked on I mean we mostly work as well with T-Luck was right there we worked on the and of course we worked on this this incredible biotopolitical scale juggling escalator that you've seen in Manuel's presentation but also on something extremely funny which is a sort of I was doing the illustrations of a poem she composed about the Krebs cycle so the logical cycle involved in the digestion so it was like molecules molecules transforming I mean you were talking about you involved transformation earlier so a very again like a perfect example of how how philosophy was able to meet poetry was able to meet science was able to meet architecture and art in this practice which was really wonderful okay well maybe we should should we stop there or open it up I don't know depends if we have time or not I don't know I have a few questions maybe a couple minutes if anyone has any maybe not if you're too intimidated you can ask any of the speakers during our short coffee break and I'll round you up in about 15 minutes or so oh wait there is one kind person it's a very simple question but what happened with these drawings and it goes I was trying when I saw the exhibition yesterday with Tiffany that many of the drawings that are included in the exhibition have never been shown and actually there was as far as I understood there was even the question of how to to exceed in them because there's no record so probably you can give a very sorry you can give us a testimony of what was the way the drawings and the production of Madeleine and before Arakawa and Ginz troubled to other spaces in your case in your experience you're referring to the drawings I was just talking about in terms of the exhibition those ones in particular and if you now let's say what happened to other drawings for instance in the exhibition there's drawings that were never exhibited before very intriguing what was the way that their future and their trajectory was envisioned within the space where they were produced yeah I mean I think that's also why as Irene and Tiffany pointed out this current exhibition is very much oriented on the production of the 1980s beginning of the 90s and I think there can be three more following that based on different eras even though it's probably interesting as well to break from the strict chronological rule as well at some point but I mean yeah I mean the office was so I left the office before when the office was still the office so to speak as this one to four Houston Street there was a pretty good building like magical building and it was still full of drawings everywhere I don't know what happened to them it's probably very well archived somewhere but yeah they might surge again somewhere sometimes but I think it's kind of interesting to also sometimes have them sleep a bit and then sort of exhumed them again I think it's quite interesting and that's been also my privilege despite our sorrow to have lost Madeleine in January 2014 to continue working at the foundation to go through the archives because it was pretty much every day discovery of new documents and even you know the most the most moving moments are the photos obviously of that sort of documented and I'm very happy that some were included in this exhibition as well thank you this is a difficult question for me to answer and again what I have access to are these material things that exist in accounts of other people who knew Madeleine but I because I am so interested in this early work I want to say something about the publication of Word Rain so Word Rain was published by an individual named Richard Grossman who had his own publishing concern Grossman publishers and it even though it is an artist book it was not published in the way in which artist books aren't I guess normally I'm not sure if there is a norm published I mean it was it was reviewed somewhat widely people were kind of confused about it there is a review of it in publishers weekly really you can go look at it on the internet it's quite interesting so I don't know if Madeleine thought I'm going to be a novelist with a capital N maybe she did I would kind of like for her to have thought that and there's a way in which also in you know you have these traditional kinds of materials here like here's your author photo and then there's a little description of the author and it talks about other books that she's working on so that you can get ready to like go out and buy them you know just like be waiting for them to come out and I like why isn't there like a million books like this I just want it to be that way it's so this book is so extraordinary and so beautiful also because of the way that it ignores kinds of limitations that we would just take for granted now divisions between the worlds of art and poetry and so on and so forth so I think that's my answer to that but I don't know you know it seems like things change as time goes on and her practice and her relationship with our color change and so on and so forth but she does appear as an as an author in the in the way one does as an as an author even though her practices as a writer are not those that we would normally associate with authors and that's that's quite interesting


So, as NC said that this whole thing of D-WATS I will first say a little bit about D-WATS as in about how this whole thing came about actually D-WATS actually happens for just decentralized rate for treatment systems. It is actually a registered train leave or something right now. So, what as we all know that I mean we all started working in the field of salutation since early 90s I finished my course in 1990 and since then and it is sad to say that even now two and a half decades later we are still properly struggling with the same basic issues even though our country might have leaped forward in so many other sectors. It is little sad that even now about 90 percent or so of our towns and cities do not have any proper waste collection or management system be it liquid waste or solid waste and so therefore we all know the related issues of water bone diseases and all the related thing I do not have to go into details about you. So, this whole step towards trying to go for better sanitation has always been trying to explore more to the possibility. So, over the years I think there has been several models that have been tried out and demonstrated and multiplied in several parts. Right now because of the Swach Bharat mission and all that there is a much more stronger thrust on trying to make India totally open defecation free and all that. The thing is that to a certain extent we are able to tackle the containment that is we are able to do the toilets and kind of contain it taking it one step away from above from open air defecation. But that actually is creating a whole lot of new challenges. In fact right now we are working with a village in rural Madhya Pradesh where actually people where it is a small village it is just about 20,000 people or something and they have been there they have lot of fields around and all that and everyone has been used to open air defecation for a long time. The thing is that now as part of the Swach Bharat they have been given toilets but the toilets if you are not giving enough thought to what is the treatment happening then that is where the problem gets started. So they all have these leech pits which are provided which has got filled up in some 6 months time. So what do you do with the waste that is accumulated in it? So that is the next challenge. We are actually trying to solve the problem but you are creating a whole lot of new challenges in another way actually. So just keeping that in mind. So how do you start it is that there were quite a few of us, about 7 or 8 of us in different parts of India were all working in decentralized sanitation and water and related issues in our own ways. And this was if you know it was like the pre-internet and pre-Google times actually. So the only way that we were probably keeping communication was through either journals or books or like personal contacts and all that. But finally that happened actually. So it was at that time that this whole concept of whether it is possible to do a decentralized wastewater treatment system actually began probably to prove in India. And the initial systems that we were talking about were things like aquatic weeds, lagooning and all that like using duckweed for wastewater treatment and small small experiments like that. The bio gas plants and all of those. But the whole experiment actually started getting a little more trust in early 90s when there is this architect called Ludwig Saase who was based out of Germany who has been working for many years in China on bio gas plants and then he moved to India also. He actually taking off from his research in bio gas plants he came with a very strong conclusion that actually for tropical climates like India anaerobic treatment systems are much more relevant. I am sure all of you know the difference between aerobic and aerobic treatment now that not going into it. But that was one major kind of research that paved the way for the next whole set of work that happened actually. So he wrote this book which was published in 1998 which was initially called the Lone Wards. But later on the publications are called D-Wards actually. It is a publication by CDD. I think any of you can actually order the book. But it is like I find that it is still probably the easiest kind of handbook to understand all the aspects of decentralized wastewater treatment systems. So with that I think the whole work that we were all doing in different parts kind of became a little more kind of streamlined and then under Borgas, Borgas stands for Bremen Overseas Research and Development Agency which was the Germany based group who actually brought together brought Ludwig Saase and brought all of us together. And then we registered as a society in 2001. Today CDD has over 20 individuals and institutional members and we work in different parts of the country and we are kind of spread our work even in different other parts of the world. And it has offices. We right now have a small office in Kochi. There is an office in Angpur, Chennai and Jaipur. And as NC said since my inspiration, the small firm that I am part of has actually been one of the founding members of CDD and ours is a practice which actually focuses I think many of you might have heard of the name Laurie Baker who is a legendary architect who kind of inspired all of us when we were in college and trying to really be responsible in our profession actually. So our journey into the whole thing of water and wastewater and all that was like a continuum of the architecture that we practice which is trying to be more responsible and sustainable and eco-friendly and all. So today the main, the works that CDD does focus us on actually implementing the decentralized wastewater systems. We have also taken it to the next level of trying to address a fecal stretch which I said earlier if you have decentralized system then fecal stretch management is also a very important part of it. Then this whole thing of capacity building is also being addressed to and we also now have started looking into the whole issue of urban wastewater visualization which I will come to when I talk about therapy. So this is just to say we are not even working so just getting into it. So just to kind of say, just to recap like what exactly, why do we really need a decentralized approach to wastewater? We all know that centralized conventional thing that we all learn in college and we are all kind of used to see and all of our decision makers are also used to is the centralized sewerage networks and centralized sewage treatment plants. Now why are these often impractical for a country like India? We all know. One is that of course you need to lay these very extensive large sewer pipes which I think many of you might be in North India where probably the water table is not a big issue but if you are talking about places like Kerala, coastal Kerala and all that when you actually go down to about 2 feet that is 60 centimeter you are already hitting the groundwater. And then imagine laying pipes in one in hundred slope because that's what you need if you want to transport your solid sand liquids in through the water and then you can never take it by gravity I was just telling NC today that even if you are having a pump chamber at every kilometer it means that you have to go 10 meters down to actually get your connection then you need a minimum pumping volume it's really not workable actually otherwise we have to have pumping stations at every 200, 300 meters and who's going to manage all these things where is the power supply going to come to kind of continuously run and operate these pumps. So this is where we and so invariably for all these kind of centralized systems more than 50 or 60 percent of the cost goes into this whole laying surface and the objects is also extremely high. So and the other thing is about getting land which again is a huge challenge particularly for places like Kerala because where land is really kind of expensive so how do you actually get the land to kind of set up a centralized sewage treatment plan and then is it really the people have started protesting also because you don't want the cities always want to be dumped into a village area and they may not really want it and you are not having a nutrient cycle also you are kind of taking all the nutrients from a big city area kind of dump it into one area which kind of imbalances both the places. So due to all these various reasons so again yeah this is what I said so all these impracticalities is probably why these kind of systems have not been probably set up in many of particularly the smaller towns and other but it's when people whether civic administration doesn't even have money to set up such a thing let alone think of operating and maintaining it for next year and the other major disadvantage about centralized systems is that there is no flexibility in terms of how the city grows actually because there is always a limit to kind of the planners to decide which part of the city is kind of going to grow or not so even in many of the bigger cities where you have switch networks it's often found that where the lines are laid probably the development is not happening probably it's probably very difficult to get of connected to the existing lines and all that so there are a lot of gray spots or areas which never get connected. So that is why I think over the last 25-30 years particularly with the research efforts as are many others in the field of anaerobic treatment there has been a lot of research happening on decentralized wastewater treatment systems and decentralized therefore means more focused on anaerobic systems. So the advantage of course are that you can optimize it to even single household levels you can still create it to CPCB discharge standards they are often operable with minimum or semi-skilled or unskilled labor hardly any mechanical parts and comparable capital costs but the operation costs are very very low so those are probably the winning aspect so this is again just kind of saying the same things. So what exactly is DEWATS? So DEWATS is not really like one technology that you can take across the board and apply to every scale we got it as rather an approach actually so it's basically the philosophy of trying to understand how you can actually treat wastewater on the site or as close to the place of generation through biological passive means and the treatment process is a combination predominantly of anaerobic but there is also some bit of aerobic treatment of course happening and some of the anoxic also so totally the whole concept of DEWATS is actually we would like to call it as a DEWATS approach so as I said again that you can start from as minimum as a single household then you can combine a cluster of 10 or 15 houses and have a cluster level system so you can have like a simplified sewer system and have it for a cluster level so basically always try and say that more than taking about one MLD or so no longer becomes like a DEWATS system so we always try and break it into smaller systems so that they are each they are smaller modular systems which can be managed easily and DEWATS can actually treat domestic and industrial sources to a certain extent not all kinds of industrial waters I think have been it's possible to do through purely DEWATS systems but a great degree of small industries which are predominantly can be reduced to biological systems can be tackled as I said very low simple optics all these things and it can lead from 1 to 2510 cube per day there is a lot of tolerance to inflow fluctuation is something that we have realized through years of working and there is a high degree of customization that is possible that I said and it's modular all these things that we repeated so the applications of housing houses, housing colonies apartments, hotels, schools offices and campuses so it's kind of trying to see the city as smaller units you don't really have to take all the water to one place but whether you can actually treat the waste water as much as possible at the source so it can be for any of these applications is what is the basic principles of DEWATS so again as we know the fundamental need for any wastewater treatment system the first step is actually sedimentation because you need your when you have your ship and you water everything coming together your first module is often a settling so basically the different steps in DEWATS one is called the sedimentation and then you have the anaerobic decomposition that is the second part of it I just come to each of these modules actually so these are the basic modules of DEWATS I just start with each of these so basically the first treatment module in DEWATS is something that you are familiar with which we all generally call as a septic tank or it can be called as a settler so what exactly happens here is which is something that I think in India almost every house or every building has like a septic tank so what happens in a septic tank or a settler essentially is that you have your solids which everything coming together and you separate out the settlable solids and there is also you can normally a settler has about at least 2 chambers sometimes usually 3 chambers also so what happens is that your bigger solids actually settle in the first chamber and the connection between the first and the first and the second chamber is somewhere in the middle so that you have the floating matter is also arrested your sludge is also settled and then you have more of the suspended solids and bigger sludge going into your next chamber so essentially a settler or a septic tank actually probably treats gives you a treatment efficiency of only about 25 to 30% because essentially what is happening is only a high degree of settling that is happening and there will be some amount of anaerobic reaction happening in this first chamber because the sludge there is already over time it becomes active anaerobic sludge so there is some degree of anaerobic but basically the treatment efficiency of a settler or a septic tank is 25 to maximum about 40% and you normally design the settler or a septic tank for a period of about 1, 2, 3 years desludging time so I don't know about generally in Kerala and all that or in many of the south Indian places we know that we give a septic tank that is followed by a soap pit so what actually happens is that after the septic tank you actually let it percolate into the ground now this is okay as long as your water table is very low and your density of development is very very low also so as and if you have a good fight what is applied because what happens is that then you are actually relying on the soil bacteria to actually do the rest of the treatment from this 25 to what is happening but when in K comes to a case of very high density development combined with high water table and the lack of pipe water supply what is happening is that this 25-30% treated water is directly going and contaminating your ground water or your surface water or your along with your soil also so that is why you can never consider that unless it's like a very sparsely located place where you have just like one house and maybe some 50 meters later you have something some other house and your soil is very good maybe the system might still work but it doesn't work in most of urban contents at least so a biogas plant is also like a settler itself it also somewhat as the same has a little better efficiency but of course biogas plants are a little more complicated to build so they are not as popular as the normal septic tanks because you have to be very airtight and all that and there is often a reluctance in people to kind of use the biogas generated from night soil or you have to kind of have a combination of using your food waste also to feed it to it it can work but it needs a little more acceptance from people if you are needs much more skilled labor to actually build a properly designed biogas plant but effectively that also does the same the same 30% efficiency so what we have added as a next module in the DEWATS system is something that we call as an anaerobic baffled reactor it sounds very complicated but essentially it's a tank which has at least 4 chambers so what happens is that as we all know your sludge that is there in anaerobic conditions is completely sealed and all that the sludge inside naturally develops anaerobic bacteria and about 90 days time you started developing the anaerobic bacteria into it so what we do in the anaerobic baffled reactor is that you are forcing your fresh wastewater to flow downward get maximum contact with the activated sludge in the bottom then it goes to the then it comes up again and then it flows to the next chamber so in this process we actually I'll show you towards the end that DEWATS has proper designed spreadsheets that have been developed to actually work out the dimensioning and the size depth everything of each of these systems actually so properly designed baffled reactor we design the flow velocity and we design the area of contact non-property that by the time it flows through each of these 4 to 6 chambers we can actually achieve an efficiency of almost 75 to 85% just by anaerobic processes alone so this gives a massive advantage in terms of the treatment efficiency actually so basically it's a flow number of chambers where you give active contact with the activated sludge in the bottom so as you realize as it comes to the last chambers your sludge also starts coming down because a lot of the sludge is already eaten up by the fresh wastewater that is coming in charge of it so that is the anaerobic baffled reactor that we again design the baffled reactor to have a deserging period of about 2 to 3 years or something like that depending on the space available and all the conditions and all that more than that what happens is that the sludge starts getting thicker and when the sludge gets very thick it's very difficult to kind of deserge it so we could normally restrict it to about 3 years or something like that and then the last often in the last chambers of the baffled reactor we also add filter media which we call it as an anaerobic filter so what exactly is happening here is that we almost 75% treated wastewater we try to give them a little more surface area for the bacteria to actually work so these are like again up flow chambers but you have like a perforated slab here and you again do that up flow so that and this is a filter media we normally use cinder or something like that which has a lot of pores in it so there is you are creating maximum surface area for the aerobic bacteria to work so the last chamber of the last one or two chambers of the tank is now treated as an anaerobic filter which will give you an efficiency of up to 90% actually so this whole system these are all completely anaerobic processes so you just need properly designed civil constructed tanks there are no mechanical moving parts or anything like that just that it has to be designed properly and all that after that so what comes so you know that if you are looking at normal domestic wastewater your BOD is generally assumed as somewhere in the range of 300 to 350 milligram per liter is the normal BOD then you understand all these basics of BOD and COD and all that I hope that you are all familiar so if you are talking about an inlet BOD of about 50 milligram per liter by the time you finish your settler your baffle reactor and anaerobic filter you can get an outlet BOD to the tune of about 50 to 70 milligram per liter range you can achieve it by normal discharge Indian discharge standards with this alone you can let off the treated water safely into the ground that is permitted by pollution control boat now so with just completely anaerobic system you can achieve it to the level that you can actually let it percolate if you have the soil condition that your water when your soil can actually let it absorb that water safely otherwise if you want to kind of take it to the next level of treatment that you would like to reuse it for let's say gardening or any other non portable uses we add in a module which we call as a planted gravel filter or they are also generally called as constructed wetlands also so what happens in this module is that you know the general marsh areas you find these semi aquatic plants which you find in many of these marsh areas what they actually do is that they are absorbing the nutrients from the water and treating it in a way so what we are trying to do in a planted gravel filter is to kind of create that kind of environment that you actually make use of the most of these semi aquatic plants they let out oxygen through their root system so we go for shallow root systems which let out oxygen through it and you give that final aerobic treatment to this water that has come out of the aerobic filter so the planted gravel filter is basically like an open shallow tank which has about 50 to 60 centimeters of graded filter media that is filled into it and we grow a lot of these semi aquatic plants like kana or typhoon or reeds and all that depending on what local plants are available which are shallow rooted and which are kind of semi aquatic any of those plants can be used and once it flows through this and comes out you can easily get a BOD of less than 30 milligram per liter and more so after the aerobic process of water we still tend to have a slightly blackish color because it has gone through all the aerobic processes but finally with the last treatment of a planted gravel filter you can get the water as really kind of clear and it doesn't have any odor or anything like that you can safely kind of reuse it and the planted gravel filter also has the additional function that it has in pathogen removal that is also another activity that happens in the planted gravel filter so therefore the with the final treatment you can achieve it efficiency of about 95 percent so with for all normal uses like even for reusing up to gardening or safely discharging into a water body this much of treatment modules are sufficient actually and you can see that this whole systems are completely passive there is nothing that that needs a kind of very skilled operation or anything like that whatever maintenance that comes into it I just show it to you before I get into the maintenance part of it there is another module the only thing is that a planted gravel filter as you know all the other times you can do it below your ground and you can make use of the space above that for some activity very often where you get stuck with trying to do wastewater treatment systems there is a space for it because everyone will be thinking about this only after they finish the whole building and some will you check the road board is kind of knocking on their noses when they think about the wastewater treatment system so all these aerobic processes can be in subsurface tank so you can at least use the space above for something else but the planted gravel filter does need to be in the open and you can create part of your garden as some of the case studies I will show you in my next presentation you can see but it may be it is open space but sometimes you have situations when you are not even having that much of space available due to various reasons there is another model which has been developed which is called a vortex actually vortex as the name says it actually works on the same principle of the of the vortex so you are actually forcing the wastewater to create that the vortex effect so that there is maximum aeration there is maximum air contact that is happening for the water and with the vortex you can actually bring down again the treatment as much or even more than the planted gravel filter only thing is that the vortex needs power and it needs certain amount of maintenance so if you are actually working on a situation where little bit of power usage is okay and you have some kind of personnel to kind of run and operate the system a vortex can be a substitute for your planted gravel filter so so this is what an overall a T-WATT system will look like you have the settler you have the baffle reactor you have the aerobic filter you have the planted gravel filter and finally you can either take it to a pond or something like that and use the water from there for your gardening and all that can be part of your landscape feature and that kind of a last polishing pond also helps in the final package and removal also because you are exposing the water to sunlight or you can have the same aerobic process settler baffle reactor filter and you can have a vortex and then reuse it so this is the basic processes that is involved in the T-WATT system this is how a vortex looks like these are some demonstration modules which were developed just to kind of see how that actually vortex works and the kind of treatment efficiency that you can see is happening this is one project where actually you have the whole of the aerobic systems below the ground it's been landscaped over and you just have this vortex and a small collection pond so the only thing that you actually get to see is this and just to show that you can actually integrate all these things as part of your landscape so that it can all look nice and be part of your overall features of it this is just a graph which is again summarizing the treatment efficiency as I said the septic tank this is the kind of if you are talking about an England BOD of about 330 or something then out of the septic tank you might get this much of an efficiency your baffle reactor will give you this much of efficiency the the planted gravel filter you can get out a BOD as I said of less than 20 and if you have a polishing pond of kind of final correction that which can also give you a further aeration and all that so you can achieve it to less than almost like 10 milligram per BOD so this and so you can see the steep curves in the whole of anaerobic processes actually so what are the kind of maintenance that one would need to kind of do for an anaerobic treatment process so the first thing is I think I put the slides the other way around the basic day to day maintenance of course is that whenever you have any kind of a treatment system you have the first set of manholes from which you are taking your water into it you will definitely have to see to it that bigger solids like sanitary napkins or diapers and things like that no treatment system can actually take care of it so you do need to have the initial screens particularly large use areas you can talk about hotels and hospitals or campuses and all that that kind of an initial screening and almost at least two or three types of maintenance of the initial bar screens or manholes collection chambers will be something that people will have to do then the other thing is in the anaerobic in the anaerobic process that is the only irregular chambers when the initial manholes have to be taken care of and then you will just have to do the desludging depending on your design period can be lay once in one year or two years or three years you will have to kind of in a protocol for it and you will have to desludge those chambers desludging we all know right now the desludging pumps and conveyance are available I think you are going to have another session on fecal sludge treatment and management and all that so I am not going into the details of it then in terms of your planted gravel filter and all that the regular maintenance would be one is that you have to ensure that the flow in and out of the planted gravel filter is maintained so mainly because you have the plant roots which are doing so depending on your how much of treatment efficiency the planted gravel filter has you will have to trim your plants at least once in a month so that you have fresh plants growing at least once in say three months or something you will have to remove at least one third of the plants so that you are creating little more space for the new plants to grow up and improve it otherwise after a while the bigger plants with their roots will spread too much and it can lead to clogging and from our experience actually only once in about eight to ten years you may sometimes have to completely remove and clean and backwash and put back the filter but that will be like once in eight years or something like that then there will be no big filter also but other than that there are daily maintenance of these things so these are all like the regular maintenance are things that a gardener or an unskilled person can actually take care of the other side and just last couple of slides so the next step that we are trying to work on is on moving towards prefabrication of D-WATS modules because as I said for designing the D-WATS systems we need certain amount of skills on understanding the whole design parameters, the complications and all that so now CDDs are actually moving towards prefabricating all these treatment modules so that depending on your how much of volume to be treated you can actually go for a modular system so there will be like one M-Cube two M-Cube and five M-Cube and ten M-Cubes so depending on the different volume you can lay the system in series or in parallel and that probably means little more efficiency quality also and as I said when you are talking about this whole decentralized wastewater management systems the centralized city level vehicle slash treatment plant is a must so while we actually try and push on getting people getting civic administrations to move for decentralized waste management it is also very important that we simultaneously lobby with the civic administrations to set up city level vehicle slash management units because whatever is done you will have to deslutch these units once in a year or two and all that so if you are taking a whole town you can actually develop a protocol that each of these service streets will be deslutched every week or something like that so that and all those things can go to a centralized vehicle slash management the vehicle slash management again can be treated with the DEWATS system itself and you are being similar to the process that I explained earlier only thing is that the sludge volume will be more so we are normally dewater the sludge and let the sludge dry and we use the water is treated and reused for gardening model so this is the major vehicle slash management unit the first vehicle slash treatment unit that CDDS has been they have in a Haleen here in Bangalore so these are the kind of design spreadsheets I don't know how clear they are from there but essentially kind of trying to tell you that the main things that we need to look at besides the quantity of load the COD BOD there are also things like the your actual physical design parameters like how much depth can you go how much land that you have and all that the temperature factors the the the conductivity of the filter media in each of these things and load with that you go into it so based on all these things is how you actually design our dewater system so this is the last line of the presentation just kind of trying to say that the how we see dewater is that it actually is more effective in kind of closing the loop as you know because you are closing the loop as close to the place of generation as much as possible because that means that you are actually making it much more sustainable in terms of returning back the nutrients to the to the ground returning back the water to where recharging the groundwater and all that so that whole process much much more effective in a decentralized approach than when you are compared to a centralized system


Okay, folks, look, sometime on my channel, I like to just go ahead and put together some like quick and easy, and I'm gonna say they fun. You know recipes, right? Listen, it's gonna be a pizza, but instead of using pizza though, we're using French bread. Let's get it. All right, so look, what I'm gonna do is right now, look, there's very little prep work, you know when you do this, right? You guys can make your own marinara or your own type of sauce that you would like, but look, I'm trying to make it quick, fast and fun. Last minute, make this for the kids, you know what I mean? It's summertime, you put this out, and I don't know why I say it's summertime. I could look, this is good just throughout the, you know, throughout the whole season, throughout the whole year. Now, with that being said, listen, what I'm gonna do is, look, we got Italian sauces, thick cut bacon, pepperoni, we got our jarred sauces right here, bell pepper, French bread, we got an onion. Oh, and I probably should have said this, folks, this is gonna be a meaty supreme. Let's go. Okay, so when I mentioned prep work, I mean just a couple of things you need to do, but check it out, we gonna do everything simultaneously, right? So I start making my, you know, my bacon. I don't put it in on top trying to cook it because you'll cook your bread and everything with it. So look, we just wanna get this a little soft. Once we get it soft, we take it out. Okay, so look, we got that bacon going, right? Obviously. So what I'm gonna do now is, we talking about multitasking, right? So I just cut this like this, you know what I mean? I cut it like that, I gotta have it at that because when I stuff them, I like them to stand up, just a little bit of a pro tip for you. So I'm gonna cut them like this a little bit. All right, so now, all we gotta do now is just prep, you know what I mean? Let me go ahead and get it peeled and then we'll continue.  Okay, so for those of you guys that always like, you know, they've been following me for a minute, right? I usually like to take my ground meat and grind it up small. Here, it really doesn't, it's up to you how you wanna do it. All right, so you remember I said, look at the size. To me, this is okay. So actually what I'm getting ready to do is I'm gonna turn this off just so I don't continue cooking it as I'm talking, right? But you see that, I like them like that. It depends on how much meat you have, but I'm gonna go ahead and break it up just in half, right? That's why I love these bamboo, you know, square as utensils. So we'll just move this like this. I'm going to go in here. I'm gonna get me another, let's see, another paper plate lined with, you know, paper towel, take this off, anything that's left in here, that's how we're gonna soften up. Look at these right here. That's how we're gonna soften up these veggies. Now don't forget, we don't wanna like take these all the way down, we just wanna soften them up because we're gonna finish them in the oven. Okay, so look, now get real easy, right?  Let it start sweating. Just about a 30 seconds to a minute. Remember, we're softening, right? I'm liking what I'm seeing right here. Okay, so now we get down to the good part, right? Look, we got sauce, our bacon is made, we got our sauces on there, we got some soft veggies. Oven is up to 10. Now I'm getting ready to just cut this in half. And then, you know what, I gotta say this part, when you got a bread knife, look, it's serrated for a reason. I got a slicer, you know, it's nice and smooth and sharp. But look, you're supposed to let it work. I don't put a whole lot of pressure when I cut it. I see people, when they cutting bread, you know what I mean, they like butchering it. I let it just, I just move it back and forth. And I try to go as far as I can at length wise and let the, you know, the serrated teeth do the work, right? So here, you can see right there where that seam is at, you can find the other one. And then now you just wanna bring it across like this.  All right, so look, now we get down to the fun part.  That's fun, especially they, any kid friendly. Now let's just talk about the sauce. I know I get to use, you know, questions or comments down there, everybody asking like, what do you use for that? How come, you know, sometime I use spaghetti sauce, marinara, and you ask me, I'm gonna just say this, what's the difference? You go with whatever you guys like that tastes great.  That's how I do it. You gotta do this, you know, do whatever. I'll just put it right in here like this. It's gonna make sense to you in just one second. Now, look, right?  I like using the ladle, you know what I mean? Make me feel a little bit on the Italian side. Look at what I'm doing right here. It's okay, if it come over on the side, don't worry. I promise you. Look at that right there. We got some pepperoni. Let's go ahead and decorate. And then I know some of y'all follow everything. You know, follow a lot of my recipes, right? You look at that and you say, man, he sure did put a lot of meat on here. Yes, sir, I'm gonna do it like this. Not a whole lot of mozzarella. We just wanna put a little bit down, right? We want something to stick to that, right? So now I'm gonna come with a little bit of this meat. Look at this right here. You're gonna understand why I said that cause I'm gonna put a little bit more mozzarella on top.  Right? Listen, there's no right way or wrong way to make these. You make them how you wanna make them. Main thing is you just capture that flavor. And if you made them anything like the way I'm making these right here, you're gonna be all right. Then we wanna make it. We wanna tie it all in together. You see that right there? If I didn't say before, I'm gonna say it now, 415 degrees, right? The time goes by this. I'll look at it and see when it's done. It usually takes about 10 to 13 minutes, right? Close it and then I'm gonna keep my eye on it. I don't want nothing to burn on the top. We wanna take it out and have it be nice and pretty. Okay, so when it's ready, you can see, look. This one is good and this one. Then if you let it sit up too long, it might not do a cheese pull like, you know, regular, but you could just see how it is, right? You see that right there? This is what you want. Now, this is kind of big. I really wanna cut this down.  I'm finna get me a little bit of that sauce. I'm a dip and we finna eat, folks. And now for the best part, I just give it a little dip. You know what I mean? Now look, I do have a pro tip. I'm gonna show you guys. You can take your bread and you can pull out the center if you wanna like load it up. That you can do. For me, this is okay the way I did it. So I'm gonna give it a little, mm, right? Just to get it coated like that. Check this out. Cheers. Hey, check it out, folks. Super easy, you know what I mean? These kind of recipes like this is like really for like that last minute. And listen, if you got like younger kids, you can get everybody involved. These are like little fun recipes that you can make. And don't forget, if you got leftover meat in your refrigerator, you can like add that to it, hit it with that sauce, mozzarella, then bell peppers and onions, and then check it out. You got a pizza. Now, with that being said, listen, if you're new to my channel, let me take this time to say, hey, thank you for watching this video. Don't forget to like, smash that subscribe button and tell everybody out there, listen, there's a channel out here that simplifying these recipes and taking the mystery out of cooking. And you know how I always leave one of these, right? I'm gonna go ahead and grab this one and check it out. I'm out. Peace.


Okay, so in this video I'm going to show you two what I believe to be winning products, two products that are working and proven to be working right now. What I'm also going to show you in this video is the evidence. I'm going to present you with all of the evidence and information that I use when I'm doing my own product research. I'm going to show you what that evidence is to why I believe these products to be winners. Then what I want you to do is go down into the comments section and put agree if you agree with me that you also believe that these are winning products or put disagree if you disagree with me and you think that these aren't winning products and they are not working, they're not selling. I'm going to start with the cheaper of the two products which is more relevant for the time of year and then the second product I'm going to show you is quite an expensive product. It retails at in and around 300 pounds but that also translates into much higher profit margins. So the first product I want to show you is what we can see on screen playing in the background here. It's like a jigsaw puzzle but on the puzzle as we can see there's different tracks for the different vehicles with the different cars. Coming up to Christmas time this is obviously a perfect product that is not a better time of year for a product like this one. So there is reason number one why I think this is a winning product. It is a toy we're coming up to Christmas. It is a time where parents and grandparents buy children's toys. Piece of evidence number two. This particular post has been active since September 19th of 23. It is now October 12th. So less than a month later it has 6.3 thousand reactions, 1.7 thousand comments and 2.9 thousand shares. That's quite significant in the space of between sort of three to four weeks. So there is piece of evidence number two. Piece of evidence number three is going to be the comments section. So if you go down we'll start with the most relevant so you can ignore the timestamps for now. Spoiler point four will be the newest comments so we can see that they are relevant and working right now. So we have how cute is this? We're looking for something a bit better than this. So my grandma bought Xavier these and we loved going over to play with them. So one week ago there is evidence there somebody has bought this product. We have this person saying that they want it. This is cool. This is cute. Get one so we can play with it. How do I get one? There's intense. There's somebody asking how to buy this product. Just a side note as well to point out how this page is responding to people in the comments section. This is something that everybody should do for a number of reasons. Number one it shows that you're active and it also helps convert customers because you can point them in the right direction and number two is it doubles your comments section. So for example they have 1.7 thousand comments. Let's say they didn't respond to anybody if they responded to everybody they would have 3.4 thousand comments so it's extra social proof. Victoria my grandson would love this. So again there's more intense there's confirmation that people are liking this product. We have Linda. I like that. How much is it? So again there's more intense from people who want to buy this product. What you'll notice is there's a couple of people who are asking how to buy it. So there's an indicator there that perhaps that ad creative which we'll take a look at in a second. It's not perhaps so clear. The call to action in it obviously isn't clear enough to point people in the right direction. We have Gracie who posted four days ago my grandson opened his this week and loves it. So again there's more validation. There's more confirmation people are buying this product. So there's the first three pieces of evidence. Piece of evidence number four is I'm going to go to the newest comments because obviously it's easy to find winning products from six months ago a year ago but what we want is those products that are winning and working right now because if these guys can sell this product and make money with it there's absolutely no reason why we can't have strap shippers as well. So we need to confirm that this is still active and working right now and we can see this by the timestamps. So one hour ago four hours 12 hours one day 23 hours 23 hours 23 hours one day one day one day. This says one week but that's probably because it has recent replies. One week let's open these up one week so four days one day one day one day one day one day one day. You get the gist there's a significant amount of comments all within the last 24 hours which would indicate pretty clearly that this is working right now. So let's go on and take a look at the ad creative itself. Very easy very straightforward very simple. To me it looks like supplier content so it doesn't even look like they've gone to the extent of getting some UGC meaning that not only is this product working it's also a very easy one to get started with as well. You could use similar content because we know the stock content is working so there's no need to wait that extra week or so to deliver a product and have content field and edited and so on so forth. We know this is working so we can get up and running super quickly super easily test the waters and then as soon as we see that money and that return and that potential then start to invest in some original content. Let's jump on to the Shopify store and take a look at the setup they have. Initial impressions are it looks super super basic doesn't look very well professionally put together at all. The reason I've gone straight down into the comments section is because I want to see whether they've been proofread or not. These ones don't look too bad actually but the fonts are different. I don't like the idea of having red ones red fonts either it's not really in keeping. They've got some kind of common theme and branding with the use of emojis in their title and in the different variants as well but as we can see it looks very kind of stereotypical of like a drop shipping store back from like 2016 2017 you could definitely do a better job than this but it just goes to show like I've said in previous videos the most important thing is always the product. If you have a drop dead winner then you can get away with doing all of the other things not as well so you can have a stock content at creative you can have a basic amateurish Shopify store. Let's jump on to Aliexpress and see what you can buy this sort of thing for. So we can see 15 pieces for all the different designs it's about $19. Let's jump on to Aliexpress and we've got the 15 pieces it's going to cost you about six or seven dollars to load that is with free shipping. Yes there is a welcome offer on there but all you've got to think is Aliexpress is not a drop shipping platform so they would only sell it at this welcome deal if they were making a return for it.  So that's product number one that's the case I wanted to put forwards for it. Hopefully you agree with me that it's working right now and it's a great product. Yes the profit margins are tight but nonetheless it is still selling and still working. Let me know what you think in the comment section down below. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Before we jump on to product number two very very quickly I wanted to make you aware of this just 10 seconds of your time. It literally is what it says on the page. It's a 12 month supply of 127 vetted winning products that are working right now just like the one I showed you. They are all from different niches and they're all categorized into different times of the year. So for the next 12 months this one e-book that is 100% free by the way will keep you going and you will never run out of products to test at least for the next 12 months. So make sure you grab a copy of that. It's the top link in the description down below. Cheers. Move on to product number two then higher profit margins we have the newer cover. Before I show you the actual product itself then we'll jump on to Google Trends where we can see every Q4 this thing spikes massively in popularity showing or proving almost that now is a perfect time to get into this product. This particular ad I found on Facebook has 1.7 million views 675 comments and 4.5 thousand reactions. Let's have a look at some of the most relevant comments and see what people are saying. So Demond I love hours can't wait to get home to get in it. There's somebody who's obviously bought this product. Let's open these up see what else we can find. Danny from two days ago got this one week already and used it four times works great and feels fantastic. I received mine this week. I have used it twice already feels so good great investment. That's from nine hours ago so there's absolutely no denying this is working right now. I'm interested. I'm interested. I want one. I have the chair. I need this. I need one. Is it easy to clean? Interested. Ben mine came this morning so far been in twice once before I was bathroom again this afternoon. Can feel the benefits already so as we can see several people there who have bought one several who are interested. Let's just confirm it. We did see one from nine hours ago from somebody who had bought one but let's just go for the newest and see what's going on. So there's another person from one week ago mine arrived today posting a picture. We'll see comments from 47 minutes 49 minutes three hours four hours nine hours 13 hours 13 hours. Martin just got mine yesterday another person within 24 hours saying that received this. So I think nobody watching this video can deny it when I say that this product is working right now and people are buying it. Let's just take a look at the ad creative then and see what a winning ad creative looks like. So what this actually is it's actually a voiceover from a guy on YouTube who talks about health. I can't remember his name now but a really popular one. This is just some UGC content probably taken from somewhere else on the internet. In fact that's been harsh no one you recover and they are a legit company I know they they did really well in the ice baths as well so this is probably somebody that paid to film specific content for them although there is no logo on that particular sauna. Let's jump on to the Shopify store then we can see the one in the imagery actually has their logo on it and could that be the same actor I'm not sure but in the video definitely didn't have the logo on it so maybe they have taken that content from elsewhere who knows but either way people are still buying it they've got Klana set up to make that price cheaper you can split it over three payments monthly interest free which helps of course rather than 350 quid out in one go. Their site as we can see looks a lot more professional than the previous site we looked at there's less white space the font is cleaner easier to read the layouts just so much better they've got original imagery with people using the product where the other one was a lot of stock imagery they've got custom designed sites with lots of different sections that aren't default or typical and on a normal Shopify drop shipping store they do a really good job of kind of separating themselves from those kind of typical drop shipping stores when you come onto this store it doesn't scream drop shipper whereas a lot of stores do and I can't emphasize that enough you need to try and separate yourself from that kind of typical drop shipping store because nowadays people are savvy people are clued up to it they can spot it from a mile away and if you look the same as everybody else then you will fail like everybody else the majority of people harsh reality that most people do fail when it comes to starting any particular business so if you do the same as everybody else then you're more likely to fail as well okay so 350 pounds let's jump on to aliexpress this is one of the first suppliers I found it's pretty much an identical product free delivery 200 pounds basically delivered leaves 100 pounds room in there to find and acquire your customers for probably not the easiest thing to ship overseas internationally so just take this supplier give it to your normal guy send it to cj send it to bs find some agents go to 1668 get a base price there to negotiate from and do your best to find a local supplier so you are doing uk to uk or australia to australia or us to us because with the product an item like this especially a high ticket one it's worth while having a safe and secure delivery method with that being said then guys i'm going to wrap the video up just by reminding you to go and grab yourself a copy of this hundred percent three hundred twenty seven trillion ideas like you've just seen in one in this video finally let me know in the comment section what do you think do you agree with me when i say that these two products working right now if you do disagree that's totally fine that's completely cool just make sure you let me know why we can have a discussion in the comment section below thanks for watching see you in the next one cheers