But if they first of all start to see this normal in the context they're talking about, they can see that this is an unconscious process, they can see that that's how they survive. You know, they can move to some compassion and a different narrative, they might be able to see there's different ways of actually handling the situation or at least understand the connection between the two. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, the actual clue for me is in the title, the unconscious defences, bringing it into a client's awareness that we all have defences that is like you say from the moment we're born, you know, we're trying to not be vulnerable and, you know, live and survive. So it's, you know, we all have defences of one form or another and understanding that that's part of us and being aware of it for me is the first step to then, like you said, not dismantle it completely, but to just understand that it's okay and it's normal to have them. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is the therapy show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode, episode 76 of the therapy show behind closed doors with myself and the wonderful Mr Bob Cook. We'll go back to that one. And in this episode, we're going to be talking about the understanding. Sorry, you carry on, we're talking about what? The understanding of unconscious defences in therapy. Oh, God, this is such a wonderful subject because it's basically without this therapy won't happen. Yeah. Really, seriously? Yeah. Well, it might happen, but you won't, you won't be able to talk about what you did and what it was about to understand therapy in the first place. So it's a wonderful subject, I think. It is. And we all, we all have defences and most of them are unconscious ones. Well, of course, if we go back to the birth of the human organism, and of course, the beginning of the psychological journey. By definition, from the time we came out of the womb, and we're coming into this world, we're defending against vulnerability and trauma. Yeah. And those natural psychological defenses. Should we list some of them? You go for it, Bob. Quite a lot, but we'll start off with, you know, things which without these defense systems would leave us in a sorry state, I think. So let's start listing some of the denial. Yeah. So this is a very important, necessary, but in terms of psychological survival. I know there's a whole unconscious process to this post to this I'm talking about. But without denial, we are often left so vulnerable to the harshness of the actual reality around us. Yeah. I was just thinking about, not many things about, let's just pick the Ukraine Russia war, which were caught observing at the moment. So you think about denial. There are a lot of those people on the ground in Ukraine and Russia, we have to deny a lot of existence and a lot of trauma to be able to continue. Yeah. And people that come back from post traumatic situations, whether it be Afghanistan or whatever we're talking about, to get by the most traumatic situations have to deny many things.  Yeah. We see it all the time. Yeah. You'll see it in your therapy room every day. Yeah. The denial of the vulnerable. Usually it's the denial of their vulnerability. Which in, you know, trauma is really important. Yeah. And just generally in relationships. Yeah. And we can go even farther field and climate change or we could talk about many things, I think, but people will deny things so that they can survive in a soothing way or a way which vulnerability doesn't come into their question. Yeah. And we're all really good at sticking our head in the sand when we need to. Yeah, so I was absolutely we could go on about many situations and denial is a very important, natural unconscious defense to be able to create stability, continuity, predictability for ourselves in a psychological way. Yeah. Or manner. Yeah. Yeah. I'll link in with discounting. That's an unconscious defense system, is it? When we discount somebody will probably might do that. Yes, I suppose it can link into it. What were you thinking about and when you asked that question? Well, I'm not sure whether it links into the vulnerability or not, but discounting the severity of certain things. Which, you know, he's kind of the same as denial, I suppose. Yeah. So we've got this discounting the existence of actual actions thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Nile of the significance of actions thoughts and feelings. So we have different levels of discounting, which to me really are many ways different levels of denial. Yeah. And I know in TA they talk about four levels of discounting, you know, significance of existence, existence of issues. And I can't quite remember them all, but they can easily be thought of in terms of different levels of denial. Yeah. Another unconscious defense system, which we all do, by the way, is dissociation. Dissociation or definition dissociation is a movement away from a self. And you often, people often describe it, maybe I've zoned out. Yeah. Or I've blanked out. Zoned out is often a very common phrase. I've just gone away somewhere for a moment. Yeah. I don't know any of these sort of sentence constructions, but they're all movement away from the self so they don't have to think or feel or get in touch with uncomfortable things. Yeah. And you can, you can see that happening in the therapy room when somebody's zoned out or yeah, like you say they've gone to another place. Yeah. And they people learn that to do that from an unconscious place very early in their histories. And it's to move away from the uncomfortability of reality. Yeah. And of course, people have been abused, traumatized, ritualized, you know, all these things to survive, they have to move away from the trauma. And so they can express they actively psychologically those may those unconscious, they move themselves away from their body or psychological spirit. Now, you can teach people to dissociate other way. People who are in trauma situations and all these abusive situations just talked about will do that as a way to survive naturally. Yeah. I don't have to be taught that they do it. Yeah. When I go to the dentist, for example, and I hate dentistry, and I've got coming up to have, oh, 700 pounds worth of dentistry. Wow. The crown teeth and goodness knows what. So I look up there and above me is some grids and different patterns wallpaper and different things like that. So I can force myself to count the grids or to count the spots on the wallpaper or whatever it is, and I can move away. I can teach myself to move away as much as I can from the uncomfortability of the reality of the pain. Yeah. And that's become a really well known phenomenon dentistry. To the extent they provide these some of these dentists dentists do anyway. They provide televisions or the provide the things you can look up which have narratives or you can read a book or goodness knows what. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the same thing. They make say, oh, to distract you. But it's in clinical terms, it's a movement away from the pain of the reality the person is in. Yeah. And it works being able to consciously do that in certain situations. Definitely. And if you've been abused, then what's the best way? Yeah. Move yourself in the situation. Yeah. That's the positive side. And thank God, people do that other way to survive. The negative side or the cost later on in life is they continue to do it. Circumstances when they don't need to do so much. Yeah. They they taught themselves. They've learned how to do it. And any resemblance of the same process. Or anything that reminds me of that triggers with that. They can suddenly dissociate. And then they lose that they lose their self really. Yeah. Yeah. Which, like you say, it's understandable. It's a really good thing to do in certain situations, but then the impact on the present. If we're doing that unnecessarily is, you know, on relationships and connection with other people. Yeah. So people have been abused on many different levels. And they've had to dissociate to survive and cope. What can happen in later life when they get say get involved in a healthy relationship. And then sex comes up or intimacy comes up. Yeah. They may have flashbacks. They may get triggered back to their history. And it gets played out in the present. So then sexual relationships were very difficult. And then dissociation to occur. And then the person on the end of the dissociation feels that they're not there. Yeah. And then you've got intimacy issues, communication issues. And then they come to therapy. Yeah. But defense mechanisms are like you say it's for survival. It's, you know, and being vulnerable takes courage in the therapy room. You know, I do think the two come hand in hand in the therapy room in order to be vulnerable. And, you know, talk about and express these things. The client has got to be really courageous to change the patterns. Without a doubt. And I'm always reminded of that. I mean, I watched a television program called just come. It's been on for quite a while. It goes off and then it comes back again. It's a detective program. It's called Professor T. I think. Yes. Yeah. T or Q. I'm not quite sure. He places a guy who was in death in paradise. Yeah. The first detective. I can't remember his name. Anyway, places eccentric sort of. Professor consultant. And he solves these cases. But he also has tremendous intimacy issues. And he's just hired an intimacy coach. But what happens is that the, his past, which was very traumatic gets played out today. And we'll say healthy relationships, but he isn't able to reconnect himself. So he gets triggered back into distrust to fragmentation and intimacy because of possible. Yeah. He's gone into psychotherapy and I think the therapist has said, get an intimacy coach. So it's, so what's really important is what you've just said. That was an example of what I'm talking about. But what's really important is what you've just said. It's just to understand that these defenses are survival coping mechanisms. And they need to be honored. Yeah. Just dismantled. Yeah. I love the way you phrase that. They do need to be honored and giving gratitude and thanks because it's got the client to where they are today. Yeah. Absolutely. That's where compassion needs to come in. Yeah. Another unconscious defense process is splitting. Some people might say fragmentation. Yeah. It's on the same ballpark of dissociation, by the way, movement away from the self, but it's much more intense. Well, is it more intense, but it's where we split off from part of ourselves. And if you, if you're into thinking about things like multiple personality disorder, thinking about things like dissociative identity disorders, they'll talk about the mechanism of splitting. Yeah. It's off from parts of ourselves if you like. And that might be people who have felt really, you know, for example, really guilty about themselves ashamed of themselves disgusted about themselves or what if I know what now it is we want to use so they split off from that part of themselves and create another part. Yeah. You might call that adaptation, but it's a at a milder level. Yeah. That we adapt other people call imposter syndromes. They're all ways of, but they're all part of a splitting process. Yeah. And like you said, there's different levels and severity to it. Yeah, you know, imposter syndrome doesn't seem that bad as, you know, the splitting and fragmenting but it is the similar sort of thing. It's the same ballpark because we split off and create a full self. Yeah. And the therapy is integration of the two. Yeah. All self, real self. Yeah. Yeah. So splitting is an unconscious defense system. Another one would be depersonalization. Have you heard of that one? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, where we again, although on the same ballpark of splitting and fragmentation and moving away from the south. This is where we move away from the south as well. And we, we, I can explain we person who depersonalize will talk about what I feel when I'm in situations. And of course it has its triggers in a person's history. And which are traumatic for me or I feel vulnerable when I feel as if I'm moved away from the situation and I have no feelings. I'm just looking down at the situation. In that way. Yeah. And conscious defenseless we're talking about here are movements away from myself so we can cope with present day reality in a different way. Yeah. So why do we work with this in the therapy room? First step is to understand what you've just said. And I just said is that they're coping mechanisms. Yeah. We need to honor them. We need to stand them before we go any forward or before we go anything else. If we don't do that, we may encourage a person, for example, to dismantle their defense systems. And that'd be the worst thing it could do. Yeah, first and then would suddenly be in a sort of boat of their history without a paddle.  It would be the worst thing to do. So you need to find out what drives the unconscious processes, what the trauma was, what the, the history of history of injury was or whatever it whatever we're talking about in some of this history, we need to find out what that's all about first. We need to understand the context of where the defenses were established first, and we need to then help the person what I would call normalize the situation.  These awful things have happened to them. Yeah. And from that place, they may move to a place where they can get some compassion or different narrative than the one that tell themselves. Yeah. And from that place, they can start then integrating perhaps the possibility of new healthy coping mechanisms. And also not say, you know, you encourage them straight away to, you know, dismantle their other processes, but if they first of all start to see this normal in the context they're talking about, they can see that this is an unconscious process. They can see that that's how they survive. They can see that, you know, they can move to some compassion and a different narrative. They might be able to see there's different ways of actually handling the situation, or at least understand the connection between the two. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the actual clue for me is in the title, the unconscious defenses, bringing it into a client's awareness that we all have defenses that is like you say from the moment we're born, you know, we're trying to not be vulnerable and, you know, live and survive. So it's, you know, we all have defenses of one form or another and understanding that that's part of us. And being aware of it for me is the first step to then, like you said, not dismantling completely, but to just understand that it's okay and it's normal to have them. The whole story is bringing that into their awareness. Yeah. Yeah. And then from that place, helping them to, I can explain, desensitize really to see that there might be other choices to implement in different ways, move to some sort of integration, move to a more compassionate narrative, and to help them integrate different processes into life, everyday life. Yeah. And, you know, as always, it's a long process with things like this, you know, because there is guilt and shame or potentially guilt and shame attached to it and that negative self-talk about, you know, being aware that this behavior exists, they can start to be quite negative about it as opposed to being compassionate. You know what I mean? Why have I always done this? Why do I always ruin every relationship I've been in? It's my fault and all those sorts of things, which is part of the process of moving forward. Yeah. So I think you're correct. Awareness is the first key. Yeah. I think our analysts talked about awareness being the end of the whole process. Psychotherapy came along and said, it's not the end of the whole process. We now need to help the person integrate new ways of being in their lives. I'd like to put something in between the middle. Besides just awareness, I think compassion. Yeah. It's a new narrative. Having been able to have support in their lives will help them move to a different place. Yeah. Because, you know, compassion, self-love, you know, self-forgiveness, all those sort of things are for me really important in the therapy process. They are. And to help that happen, if you like, you have to, by definition, look at their internal eye, where the negative narrative came from. Yeah. Another sort of way of, people often might say, I've always been like this, you know, and then they start to look at how they've hated themselves and XXXX. And often you see part of the therapy is helping them understand that that is not actually those words or the narrative or the way they think isn't an eye. Yeah. It comes, these narratives come from somewhere else. Yeah. That's half the battle if they can move, you know, from an eye position to understand that these narratives are really from an outside source. Yeah. And it can be really difficult, you know, because it's like they're losing part of their identity when they're unearthing all of this stuff. You know, they, I thought this is who I always was. And when we start to understand, like you said, that that narrative comes from outside and, you know, it's not authentically who we are. One, it's a wonderful thing, but also it's part of losing and letting something go as well, which can be really, you know, quite a big thing in therapy. So it's massive. I mean, you're absolutely correct. And I think that I think it's a process. Yeah. Never be an event, can it? Yeah.  There's a sense of grief and loss that goes along with that. Yeah. And of course, dealing with the shame and guilt is, which always raises its head. Yeah. All the time. It just, it does for me. It is a really other process, but I think the starting point is how can be aware of these unconscious defense systems and secondly, the normality of it. Yeah. And how they have to survive that way. And even though it might be difficult now, even though we might have to understand and hopefully change things. It was normal back then. And they're not crazy. Yeah. Because often people move to a place of thinking of themselves as crazy or eccentric or unusual or not normal, all these place things. But actually, that's actually really has come from somewhere else. We need to help them understand all that and help them move to a kind of framework about themselves rather than this harsh position they often take, which again, I just repeated this podcast is somewhere they've taken from somewhere else. Yeah. I often, it's surprising I was just thinking as you were talking there now often it actually comes up in in the therapy room is, you know, I often talk about the little you, you know, the little you did the best that they could with the resources that they had available at the time. You need to be, you know, show empathy and gratitude to that. But now, as an adult, you've got, you know, the way with all the more resources and the resilience to do something different. But you've got to, like you said early on in this podcast, you've got to honor that little you. You've got by a miss of the tremendous trauma and toxicity and personal injury that maybe as part of your life back there. Yeah. Yes, I mean, that's that's true. And I often find, of course, that when often when people either through visualization or aggression or whatever mechanism we talk about, are able to get in touch with their younger self. They usually, and I don't know if this is your experience, very harsh on themselves. Yeah. The more traumatic punitive abuse of history the person's had, the harsher they are. Yeah. Which means that the level of abuse is more extreme. Nothing that's really important for a therapist to take into account. Because then what you need to think about is protection for that in the child that the person is now starting to an earth. Yeah. So I use high nurturing channel when I talk to or help person get in touch with the younger self. I think it was a podcast either the one the last one or the one before when we talk about in a child. Yeah. But it's in the same ballpark that you need need to use a nurturing child and you need to provide protection. Yeah. I think it's a duty of a therapist to help the person come to that awareness. Yeah. And, you know, those defenses will show up in the therapy room. They'll be using all the defenses when we get close to them. Yeah. Actually, in TA we talk about drivers and trying hard and being strong and being perfect and all these things that people aren't aware that they're doing. But of course, they're driven that way to survive. Yeah. If I don't. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Well, it won't be anything different. Because we have to work with people who are not aware that they can't. But I'm sure that the people are not aware that they're doing. And but of course, they're driven that way to survive. Yeah. If I don't. I don't know if I'm not pleasing people. Then I'll get hit. Yeah.  And again, like everything, there's layers to it. things to, you know, placate us or keep us happy and, you know, veer us away from something that they feel uncomfortable with. So it's, it's like a barrage of defences all the time. Oh, all the time. And mainly there to keep us away. Yeah, with them. Yeah. In some form. Yeah. So it's slow and steady brings wins the race. It's not going in with a battery man. Yeah. Another defences and we haven't mentioned what I'm talking about. But I can bring up it is displacement. So. Well, it's in the area of destruction, but it's to move away from the subject. Yeah. We displace it on to the other. So the original trauma is about X, but then we put it on to the other person. We displace it. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Start talking, thinking, feeling about the other rather than talking, feeling, thinking about us. Yeah. So suddenly it becomes the other process, the other person's process or whatever it is. Blame. Yeah. Talking about so that we don't have to deal with or take ownership of the vulnerable self. When we project or blame or attack one of these displacement activities, they're all parts of surviving. Yeah. Ormatic situations. As human beings, I know we're very complex, but there's a system in place. Oh, yeah. Which is quite comforting, really. It's not a conscious thing that we have all these defences. We don't think, you know, consciously, right? I need to defend against this. We just do it somehow for survival. I remember talking to somebody, a client years and years ago, and he was describing a traumatic situation where he he got his was he driving a forklift truck, I think, and it was going too fast. And he courted the forklift truck or whatever it is on the fence and pulled the fence down and the forklift truck went over. And then the boss came over and shouted to see what you've done. And the guy looked up and said, was that me? Yeah. That's denial. Protect himself from the wrath of the other. And move away from ownership, of course, but basically is to protect himself from the perceived wrath of the other person. Now, if the person rushed up and said, are you OK? Are you OK to hurt yourself? Then there might have been a different reaction. I don't know because I don't know. He might have been reacting to trauma of the past rather than the forklift in the current situation. I don't know. But I do know that the denial was an instant survival reaction from perceived wrath. Yeah. A book. Yeah. Which you can imagine a young child doing that, do you know what I mean? If if we've done something wrong, whether it's an accident or whatever, we do everything we can to try and evade capture, so to speak. Or if your history has been regular occurrences. Of these types of punitive transactions. And when that supervisor rushes up and, you know, shouts at you, then it's it's a trigger to all these other trauma. Yeah, most this type of response. It's not necessarily the one current transaction. And it may be, but it usually isn't used style where those unconscious and conscious defense systems have been utilised many times over to escape the wrath of the perceived other. Yeah. We are a product of our upbringing and our past. And, you know, again, it is just what you said then about all the other sequence of events that, you know, that's. Putting it, you know, in a visual representation for me, that I would pass were past effects, I were present 100 percent of the time. So a client comes in the door and it's late five minutes. And you say to him, oh, there's many transactions. Say you said, I don't know. I can't imagine if they say that, but they might say it this way. They may say, oh, you're late, aren't you? Not in a particularly punitive way, but if the person, if the client's had many, many, many, many, many experiences. We should be imputed punitive and toxic by a. Another person has been out to hurt them. Then they will project that onto the comment from the therapist, even if it was from their adult ego state. Yeah. They will put a project unconsciously. The punitive parent onto the therapist and they'll act accordingly. Closed down, they'll withdraw, or do they do what they did in many situations before to survive the wrath of the perceived other? Yeah, that will then enact history for them, but will provide stability, consistent identity, stable level of stability of script and how life actually works. Yeah, it's interesting you say that because, you know, I would imagine if a client has got that history and they do turn up late, that they're already in that process before they even walked in through the door. Yeah, because they will be perceiving and projecting what the therapist and they will expect the therapist to go to a punitive parent. Yeah, like all the other people in front of them. He and said that when they walk in, even if the person's coming from an adult position, they will already be moving to an unconscious system. Which again is something, you know, as a therapist to just be mindful and aware of, you know, the therapy starts before they even walk in through the door with what's happened to them and, you know, the situation that they're in in that moment. It's starting outside the therapy room. Oh, absolutely. So it takes a long time to actually establish a positive therapeutic relationship and trust between therapist and client because of the levels of unconscious defences and projections that occur between the client and the therapist. Yeah. For a lot of the time, especially with the very disturbed clients, they don't actually have a relationship with the therapist in the here and now. They are having relationships with their projected parents. Yeah. And it takes quite a lot of skill by the therapist and patience to stay with that. Patience, I think, is a good word for it. Yeah. The higher level of disturbance a person has, the more redefinitions and projections that the client will have and the more patience a therapist will need. Yeah. And it's not a one hit wonder. It's replaying it over and over and over again to loosen the hold of the defence mechanisms. They're going to be laying traps. They're going to be testing. They're going to be doing this over and over, which, you know, that patience is needed. It's like at the moment, the race for space has increased again. So a lot of money has been spent on, you know, launches into Mars. I was just saw there was another one coming up and this that the other and they're going to put the man on the moon again. Now, if you can imagine this, if your client has come from the moon or in a completely different type of world, they will expect the world to be like the world they inhabited before. Yeah. So they will transact in a way, behave in a way and feel in a way that they did in their previous interpretation, why to provide psychological identity, to provide psychological stability, to provide a sense of continuity and to show themselves that this is how the world runs. Yeah. If they don't do that, then they start to feel very uncomfortable and don't really understand why this world is enacting in a similar way to the other world. Yeah. And like you said earlier on in this, that leaves them a drift because there isn't an anchor. There's nothing, there's nothing that they can hang on to to a certain extent. Oh, yeah. If you can stay with them, the therapist will become the anchor. Yeah. But it's a process. Yeah. And the therapist needs to understand or at least have the passion, motivation and curiosity to attempt to understand the other world that the client inhabits so they can provide the bridge between the two worlds. What a wonderful way to finish this podcast, Bob, there's a bridge between two worlds. Yeah. No, I really mean that. And it's something I've endeavoured to do throughout my practices and the decades of work I've done to provide a bridge between these two different, completely different worlds or in places that often people inhabit when they come to see me for therapy. Yeah. Then I can maybe provide, you know, a more healthy path for their being in life. Yeah. Yeah, it's a process, never an event. No, I use that saying a lot as well. That's what you've been doing for the last however many years. And I've only, I've been humble to do it. I've been a privilege in my life. Yeah.  Yeah. And I'll go back, I don't know, as this podcast is about unconscious defenses, I think you're completely right. If you help the person be aware of their unconscious defenses as healthy mechanisms for coping and surviving, then you will help them find the bridge or the be able to take you in terms of object constancy so they can find in a way out of their health. Yeah. And I'm sure you're held in a lot of people's hearts and minds, Bob, with the people that you've seen as the constant object and what will Bob say? What will Bob do? Yeah, I'm very humbled and proud in terms of my profession. And, you know, I suppose that has got me through the decades of the work I've done and you. Yeah, I love my job. I love what I do. Yeah. So thank you for allowing me to talk about unconscious defenses. As always, Bob, you're welcome. We have no idea what we're doing next time, so it'll be a surprise for everybody. I can say it again next next time we'll surprise people and we'll go back to giving them sense of predictability in a sense of structure and what the next two will be. But anyway, you're quite right. We don't know at this moment, but they will be fascinating things I'm sure to discuss. I completely agree. Until next time, Bob, thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.


Our next destination is the stunning home of Ava Gardner, tucked away in the lush hills of Nichols Canyon, Los Angeles. This oasis was a retreat from the glitz and glamour of Hollywood, a tranquil haven for Ava. Each room in this home is a work of art, telling the story of an extraordinary woman who found solace in the simplicity and tranquility of her home. In 1948, following the dissolution of Ava's first two brief marriages to Mickey Rooney and fan leader Artie Shaw, and before she went on to marry Frank Sinatra in 1951, the stunning actress decided to put down some roots in this home in LA's Nichols Canyon. While modestly decorated evidently by the actress herself, it seems to hold some of the actual woman who dwelled somewhere within one of Hollywood's famous, maybe even notorious, love goddesses.


Flames sweep through a pulpwood stockpile in Hull, Canada, across the river from the Dominion's capital city of Ottawa. Valuable machinery and tens of thousands of cords of wood are destroyed by the flame. Fire equipment from both cities place streams of water on the 100-foot-high flame. Daylight reveals the extent of the damage to the big stockpile. The loss is increased when the flames reach the Alexander Railroad Bridge. The terrific heat tears and twists the bridge in the heavy rail. In one of Canada's most serious losses by fire. The world's greatest phosphate mines, a vast source of agricultural fertilizer. Containing 50% of the world's supply, these mines are working at full capacity to provide fertilizer to help revitalize the farms of war-torn countries. A tremendous dredge digs up the rich phosphate deposits which lie only 10 to 15 feet below the surface. 8 to 10 million cubic yards will be excavated this year. Most of it will be used to enrich the crops so badly needed to prevent famine in Europe and Asia. On a railroad trestle, the phosphate in its crude form is carried to a large stockpile. Bulldozers push it into pits where it is transported underground on conveyor belts at the rate of 300 tons an hour. At the end of the belt line, the phosphate is loaded into cars for shipment abroad. The United Nations Security Council begins its second day of deliberations in New York City. The main issue is Iran's dispute with Russia. The Soviet's Ambassador Gromyko has asked postponement of the matter for two weeks. But Britain's Sir Alexander Kedogan is for immediate discussion as are America's Statenius and Burns. Poland's Dr. Longa has supported the Soviet motion. Iran has filed formal charges with the council and Ambassador Hassan Alaa is present to present his case if the council so decides. But Gromyko strongly objected. Mr. Gromyko insists that there has been an understanding reached between the Soviet Union and the Iranian government. He makes a motion that the case therefore be eliminated from the agenda of the Security Council. Dr. Kuo of China presiding calls for a vote on Gromyko's motion. The Soviet delegate and Dr. Longa of Poland vote in favor. But by a show of nine hands to two, the Iranian protest is kept on the agenda. Gromyko then calls for a postponement of the hearing of Iran's case for two weeks. The United States Secretary Burns insists that Iran is entitled to a hearing on the question of postponement. We must give them a chance to be heard. After we've heard them, after we've heard the representative of the Iranian government speaking for his government, if his statement does not appeal to us, then we can postpone. But to postpone without giving them a chance to be heard would be a violation of the spur to the charter. A Russian threat not to participate in the meetings if Iran has heard before April 10th is deplored by delegate Van Clefens of the Netherlands. A little disappointed that the delegate for the Soviet Union should have suggested that his government could not consent to a discussion before the 10th of April because I feel that if the council thinks there should be a discussion. And I'm not entering into that question because I want to see the representative of Iran sitting here at the table and hear what he says about this postponement question before I make up my mind. But if the council came to the conclusion that there should be a discussion, I do not think that any individual member should paralyze such action or announce in advance because that is a sort of pressure which I think is not quite the right thing that it would not take part. It is one of the things we have undertaken by joining this organization that we should cooperate. And I think that is in strict conformity with the purposes and principles as they have been enunciated in the beginning of the charter. The next day the issue was still before the council, a subcommittee having been unable to arrive at a compromise in the meantime. Cromico, Bonet of France and Cadogan of Britain take their places. Trigvili, UNO secretary general is present. In the front row again are the representatives of Iran. The argument proceeds as Egypt delegate Hassan brings up the rights of smaller nations. That the small countries today are waiting for your decision because we want to see the big powers respect the treaty obligations. We want the big powers to know that if an independent country does not want to have foreign troops stationed on each side, the big powers should comply to that. It is only in the light of these observations that I have moved the motion yesterday about asking the representatives of Iran to come here to the bench and explain his case. The whole world is waiting for our decision today. Dr. Quo puts the motion for postponement. Motion for postponement until April 10th. This is the climax of the meeting. The iteration of the Iranian case. All those who are in favor of the Soviet representative's motion will please signify by raising their hands. Again, the vote is nine to two against postponement. Two in favor, not carried. The Iranians get ready to present their case and Ambassador Gromyko rises with the Russian delegation to leave the council table. But the meeting goes on. Next day, a secretary of state burns and the other delegates take their places. The attention of those present is called to the empty chair of the Soviet delegate. Iran's Ambassador Hossein Allah, urging United Nations action, continues the presentation of Iran's position. He regrets the absence of the Soviet delegation. I'm sorry that my Russian colleague is not here. For in responding further to his request for postponement, I wish above all to be accurate and fair. And I would be happier if he were here to correct at first hand any misunderstanding on my part of the position of his government. It is of the utmost importance that the assurances regarding evacuation be clarified without delay. It is of the utmost importance that these assurances be communicated to this council in whose hands Iran has placed its case. The council adjourns to seek further information from the governments of both parties to the dispute.


So you think the moon's been split? What's the evidence for that other than somebody said the moon was split? Claims are not evidence. Claims are not evidence, but a claim can point to evidence. When more claims happen, does it strengthen that? So if an entire population viewed that and then wrote it down, would it that be evidence that something may have happened? If they said, I lifted up my eyelids and laser beams shot out of my eyes and lit that on stage, it doesn't matter if everybody in this room claims to have seen the same thing. We can take it as they think they've witnessed something, but that isn't sufficient evidence to include that I can shoot laser beams out of my eyes. Interesting. I think it's kind of obvious. I don't think it's obvious. I think it was possible that you did shoot out of your eye. How do you know it's possible? That's my point. If God is more probable than the claims, they aren't possible.


Doubt is an enemy of healing and I want to teach you how to defeat that enemy. I'm going to show you how to defeat doubt. Now in this series I've been talking about keys to the healing ministry and I'm talking to those who believe that God has called them as vessels of His healing power in the earth and I believe that's you. But being in this healing ministry, being in the healing ministry of Jesus, you're going to find doubt come in many forms and I want to show you what you need to do with doubt. I want to show you what Jesus did with doubt and I know it's going to strengthen the healing ministry that God has given to you. But first, Stephen Moctezuma is here. He's going to lead you in some anointed worship and then we're going to get right into this lesson here. Stephen Moctezuma. So in part two of this series I really went down the line and answered the question, biblically speaking, why aren't some healed? And I gave you four biblical reasons as to why some aren't healed. Now even though someone may find these reasons in the Bible and they may mentally understand them, they may still struggle emotionally with the problem of the very reality that surrounds them of those who are not healed. And that reality really is what causes those emotions to be stirred because as you pray for the sick, there will be times that you lay hands on them and they are not healed. I've prayed for people who are not healed. I've prayed for people who have died of the sicknesses that I rebuke. Now does this mean that it's not God's will to heal? It's not what I'm saying. It just means that we have to leave room for the sovereignty of God. So if you're someone who wrestles with those questions, take a look at what I taught on part two of this series, How to Heal the Sick, just biblical answers to the question, why aren't some healed? But nevertheless, after you've wrestled with all of the questions and after you've gone back and forth in your mind with the information, you are faced with making a decision. How do you respond when what you experience seems to contradict with the Bible declares? Do you believe your experience because it's happening or do you believe the Bible? Now this really is the issue for most people. I mean, I've prayed for people who wouldn't even tell me what their sicknesses were. I don't know how many times I've said, what am I praying for? They said, just believing, just in faith. They said, well, what do you have? I don't have a sickness, they would say. But what's wrong with you? There's nothing wrong with me. Then why are you in a line for healing? Just pray for me, they'll say. And it gets really confusing, why? Because they think that if they speak it, that they're causing it. But that's not the type of superstition I'm talking about. Superstition has no power. I'm talking about truth. And so we have to avoid that extreme of not naming it or walking around in this paranoia of if I acknowledge a sickness or if I acknowledge that a situation doesn't seem to be going as planned, then therefore I am contributing to it with doubt. That's not doubt, that's just acknowledging the facts. Faith does not deny reality, but it does address reality. And so in those instances where you find yourself wondering about the healing of someone that didn't occur, you have to make the decision of ultimately trusting in the Word of God. Now again, I dealt with more of the theology and the technicalities and some of the things that may help you mentally on part two of this series. On this one, I want to help you deal with the emotion of it or the soul element of it. That something inside of you that acts as a barrier, a fear that prevents you from ministering God's healing power. So never allow the miracles you don't receive prevent you from seeing the miracles you should receive. In other words, what God doesn't do that I expect him to do will not stop me from believing for what can be. Ultimately, nothing is impossible with God. Our partnership with the Lord comes down to be rather simple. I do the possible, he does the impossible. If I will worship, his presence will be made manifest. If I will preach, souls will be saved. If I will give, he will bless. If I will lay hands on the sick, he will heal them. It's up to him from there. And so again, while the questions may be addressed intellectually, we may still struggle with the problem of the reality emotionally. And so I can recall my own experience with this area of doubt because when I was 14 years old or so, about 11 years old actually, I first saw these two evangelists that were just dynamic and powerful. One of them was very stoic and solemn and serious. And another one was very joyful and loose. And he was very funny actually, quite comedic. I wish I could tell you some of the stories, but time won't allow, but he was just a very, very funny man. Now I watched both of these two men, opposite ends of the spectrum, speaking in personality, terms of personality, both of these men on opposite ends of the spectrum, one real serious, one real silly. And I thought, God could use both of these men who are so different from each other. And I realized then it's not about personality. Both of these men are just surrendered in faith to the Holy Spirit. And that's when I knew that I knew that I knew, and I know you've had moments like this. I knew that I knew that I knew I was called to the healing ministry. And so I watched these men for years. One of the men, the man who was a little more on the comedic side, developed MS. It's a multiple, it's a disease where your muscles begin to deteriorate and it affects multiple systems, multiple parts of the body. And I watched as this man went from using canes to move around to using a wheelchair to eventually not being able to move any part of his body on his own. Now here's the thing, this man was in the healing ministry. He prayed for the sick.  And then in my own ministry, I would see people healed the same diseases that he was said to have had. The same sickness he had, MS, I've seen it healed multiple times in the ministry where they come back with reports and everything. And I thought, God, why didn't you do it for him? In fact, I remember being there with him on his deathbed. He was on his deathbed.  And I thought, Lord, why didn't you heal him? He's in the healing ministry. Your power flowed through him. I could name healing evangelists after healing evangelists who had issues with it. Catherine Coleman had heart trouble. I think of many great evangelists who've gone home to be with the Lord as a result of sicknesses that were healed in their own ministries. How do you deal with this? How do you reconcile this? Well, again, I addressed the intellectual portion of it in part two. And right here in part three, I want to talk about how to defeat this doubt, how to, what to do with it. So Mark chapter five, beginning at verse number 35, this is what the scripture says. While he was still speaking to her, messengers arrived from the home of Jairus, the leader of the synagogue. They told him, your daughter is dead. There's no use troubling the teacher now. But Jesus overheard them and said to Jairus, don't be afraid, just have faith. Then Jesus stopped the crowd and wouldn't let anyone go with him, except Peter, James and John, the brother of James. When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw much commotion and weeping and wailing. He went inside and asked, why all this commotion and weeping? The child isn't dead. She's only asleep. So here Jesus makes a statement of faith declaring, in fact, that he has the power to raise her from this sleep. And look at how the people responded to him. The crowd laughed at him. So they mocked him to score and the King James version says, but I want you to see what Jesus did to the mockers. But he made them all leave. And he took the girl's father and mother and his three disciples into the room where the girl was lying, holding her hand.  And the girl who was 12 years old immediately stood up and walked around. They were overwhelmed and totally amazed. How did Jesus deal with doubt? He simply put doubt out. Doubt is like a fire. Now I'm not saying don't ask questions. I'm not saying don't research. In fact, I believe that the more questions you ask, especially when they pertain to scripture that the closer you become to truth, don't be afraid of questions. The only ones who are afraid of questions are the ones who don't have the truth. But doubt is not questioning. That's curiosity. That's the thirst for knowledge and revelation and that's okay. Doubt is this sense of distrust, this feeling of distrust toward God's Word and what He has said. Now doubt begins as a small flicker, a little ember. And if you allow it to grow, it becomes a raging infernal that is difficult to put out. It destroys faith. It destroys that sense of wonder. It destroys that sense of awe. It burns away at the life and the vegetation that is your faith and leaves in its place a scorched land that is dry and useless. So doubt must be addressed and doubt, as I said earlier, can come in many forms. It can come in the form of a skeptic sitting at the front row while you're preaching. It can come in the form of questions. It can come in the form of depression and heavy emotions that you carry as a result of seeing someone not receive their healing. It can come about through worry. It can come about through others speaking into your life negatively. Now again, to balance what I'm saying, I'm not saying that we need to walk around denying sickness. I'm not sick. I'm not sick. I'm not sick. That's nonsense. If you're not sick, you wouldn't need a healing and therefore you wouldn't be declaring that in the first place. It's circular reasoning and it's nonsense and it's superstition. I'm talking about doubt that comes on as distrust in the Word of God. That is what you must dismiss. That is what you must kick out. So while I do allow myself to ask questions, I don't allow myself to doubt the character of God. Well, I do allow myself to analyze the situation. I don't allow myself to stop believing the Word of God. Doubt must be addressed. Doubt is intimidating. Doubt is loud. Doubt likes to shout, but the Holy Spirit can whisper. And when he whispers, whispers are more powerful than all the shouts of doubt around you. So intimidating spirits hang around with spirits of doubt. The spirit of intimidation is that feeling of inferiority that you get when you share the gospel or pray for the sick. Some people carry it on them.  You could just feel their doubt. You can just feel them looking down upon you.  This is what the people did. They laughed at Jesus. They laughed at his power. He kicked them out. You have to do the same. You have to say to yourself, I will not allow doubt. In fact, I've done it to where people in my services, in fact a great man of God taught me, he said there will be times when you're preaching that people on the front row want to challenge the anointing. They stand there with their arms folded and they just look at you.  They're not there to receive. They're there to cause trouble. And what I'll do, I'll just have a move. I'll say excuse me, sir, I need you to move to the back and someone else come up to the front. Now I'll pick someone who looks like they're filled with faith and moving to the front row. Because the spirit of doubt, the spirit of intimidation is defeated by bold and audacious faith. People that challenge the anointing, I push right back. People that try to be cynical and laugh and mock, I push right back with bold and audacious faith. There have been times where people are sitting in the back row. Now remember just a couple of services ago, someone's sitting in the back row. They're watching and you can tell they're just kind of doubting and analyzing everything. And so instead of just letting that continue, I said, Lord, speak to me about that man. The Lord gave me a word of knowledge. I went all the way to the back of the church, went right at him and said, sir, you didn't expect me to come to you, but this is what God says. It broken. The man began to cry. Why? Because doubt was broken. That intimidation was broken. They may not even realize they're exuding that persona, but it is a spiritual thing. So do as Jesus did and put it out. Be bold, be audacious, be confrontational with that spirit, not with people, with that spirit. Don't allow it anywhere near your mind. Don't allow it to take root. Again, yes, it's okay to ask questions. You should be asking questions. It's okay to study the Word of God and search for answers. You should be studying the Word of God, but never allow that intellectual battle for information to become an emotional distrust of God's power. Put out doubt, defeat doubt, you do that by simply resisting the thoughts that come that are full of doubt, resisting the people that come against you, and resisting everything that would speak against what the Word of God clearly teaches. That is it for the lesson. I want to pray with you now. I'm going to pray that the Lord would break doubt from you, that you would be free, and that you would be discerning to know when doubt is trying to come and make its return into your life. So Father in Jesus' name, I pray for that one now who is receiving this prayer and believing for breakthrough in the area of doubt. Lord give them the peace of mind and the peace of heart that they need. Reveal your truth to them and calm the mind, reveal your faith and your spirit to them to calm the soul.  And I pray now Lord that that be broken off that one receiving this prayer. And I thank you Father, wow, there's a healing river that just began to flow. As you were set free from doubt, the river began to flow. I thank you Lord for the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Just receive that healing. Don't over analyze this moment. Just receive. Some of you are feeling something coming on you and you've never really felt that before. That's the power of God. So you're not watching by accident. Lord I thank you for the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Thank you Lord that angels encamp around us. Thank you Lord that your presence fills this place. Let your glory fill their house Lord, wherever they are, let your glory fill that place in Jesus name and Lord we rebuke sickness and disease in the name of Jesus. I know this one's odd, but there was someone who was watching me, you were doubting and you said Lord if it's really you have them call out and I see someone with an issue with your tooth and as small as that is in your mind, you wanted it as a sign and the Lord has called it out. Thank you Lord for your healing power, I give you the glory. In fact, just when I said that now there are more people saying Lord, well if you did it for them do it for me. This is him doing it for you right now. I thank you Jesus for the anointing of the Holy Spirit, breaking every sickness and disease. Jesus name we pray and I want you to say it because you agree say amen. Well I want to welcome now the new members of Spirit Church. There you are up on the screen. We love you. We are praying for you. I always say that because I always mean it if you like information on how you can join the Spirit family. Use the information at the bottom of the screen. Remember it's 100% free to join the Spirit family. You're going to get a free weekly teaching, fresh revelation, fresh teachings from the Word of God every single Sunday morning to your email inbox and then you're going to be able to reply to that email for prayer support from my staff and you'll be joining the Spirit family which contains members from the body of Christ all around the world almost 3,000 of us now. I want to read the comments now from Steven Mock to Zuma's cover of I Stand in All of You and I'll take this opportunity. If you've not checked out Steven Mock to Zuma's playlist, you absolutely need to go do yourself a favor and go look at it. Just very, very anointed. Karen Webb writes, Thank you brother. Very beautiful and very humble. Melanie Marquez says, I'm thankful to be blessed by Steven's ministry and yes God I stand in all of you. Another commenter writes, I'm really blessed with this song. Well I was busy doing my daily chores. My heart was singing this song and when I picked up my cell phone I saw a notification in my screen with this song. Wow. My heart wants to cry for God because he always reminded me how great and powerful he is. Yes, I stand in all of you Father God. I love you Lord Jesus Christ. Beatrice writes, Your song selection is so nice. May the Lord continue using you and bless you mightily. And Tina Marie writes, Thank you Steven for blessing us with worship songs and music. You can just feel the love of Jesus through your music. The Holy Spirit is using you in a mighty way. Blessings to you and the spirit church family and we want to expand not just the healing ministry where you see me ministering and teaching. We want to expand the worship ministry of Steven Mock to Zuma and here's where I need your help. You know that we're in the middle of a campaign right now, actually toward the end of the campaign now where we need a thousand new $30 a month supporters.  Take a look on the screen. We needed a thousand new $30 a month supporters and this is where we are now. We are so close to that goal I can just sense in my spirit we're going to wrap this up in the next couple of months. I think by the end of the year we'll be done with this campaign. So that's where we are in the campaign. Now what is that for? That's to move us into our new facility and to help us do more events. But I want to just talk about the facility for now. Just to reiterate it's going to help us do more events, more places all around the world, more miracle services in all the nations, all the states. Let's do it guys. But I want to talk to you about the building because we're very close to getting favor in this area. We've had we've had favor every step of the way. So the monthly costs are going to take care of the monthly, the monthly support I should say is going to take care of the monthly costs for the building. There are two costs when getting a building. There is the one-time moving cost and there are the monthly costs of sustaining everything. So one-time cost that's renovation, that's permits, that's down payments, all of that. And that will get us in. The monthly costs what we're raising right now will keep us in. So please listen carefully. I really want you to hear my heart on this because I want you to understand the campaign. When you get a property it can sometimes take you a while to get the permits to do what you need to do. But you need to get the property before you can get the permits. So it's kind of a catch-22. So here's how it works. You get the property, you apply for the permits and you get the permits as you build according to their standards, the city standards. So that means that we need to pay rent day one as soon as we're in there. And we may be paying rent for several months before we can even use it because we have to build and renovate. That's why we're raising the monthly costs to help get us that monthly support so we can stay in there while we build with the one-time cost. Now we're almost done with the monthly costs and then we can move on to raising the renovation costs which will be much faster because it's not monthly support just one-time donations. So help us finish this campaign. You've been saying I want to do that. I'm blessed by the ministry. I'm receiving from it. Do that today. Don't delay. We need you to sign up. Finish that off and then we can turn our attention to the renovations which is very exciting because you're going to get to see updates. You're going to start to see things actually being built and that is a very exciting time. But first we need to raise this monthly so we can get in and pay for that building while we build. So we're almost done with the monthly. Let's finish this off now. Look, it was less than a hundred I believe and I believe that by the time this airs if the stats are holding true by the time this airs it's quite possible we can finish this off in just this one video. So sign up become a $30 month supporter. I'll send you as an initiation gift for partnering with me either carriers of the glory or 25 truths about demons and spiritual warfare. I will sign it as my gift to you initiation gift and then you're partnered with us and we're going to stay with us for the long haul. Now if you're watching this on YouTube state of the very end you're going to see a button that you can click. If you're watching this on the app, watch it to the end. The video will go away and you'll see a button that you can click. If you're watching this anywhere else use the information at the bottom of the screen. Now imagine this with me. A brand new television studio. We're live broadcasting. We can live stream from the studio from there. There are seats for a studio audience where you can come and sit under the ministry, the worship ministry of Steven Moctezuma. He'll lead you live in person and worship.  Well, we continue to also do all that we do. We'll add that to it. Can you see it? We're going to reach more souls than ever before. I know it and it's going to be big. Be a part of it today. Sign up as soon as this video is done. Until next time, remember nothing is impossible with God.