All right, I'm so excited to be here with Tad Hargrave. Those of you who have been following me for a while, you probably have heard me mention his name and his website, Marketing for Hippies, in various videos that I do. Really believe in Tad's work and he's been serving people who are fellow heart-based entrepreneurs, service providers for many years. And in fact, some of my clients and students have learned a lot from Tad. Whenever I bring him in to my client program and have him do some coaching with my clients, they just have amazing aha moments. So Tad, it's great to have you here again. Thanks for doing this. Thanks, it's good to be here. Yeah, it's interesting. The thing I talk about the most is niching. That's the most common. And then point of view marketing has been pretty substantial, but something I've just gotten into that I got from a colleague of mine, Tom Polland, is this whole, I'm just really thinking more deeply now about the offers themselves. What is the criteria of a good offer? How do you know if it's gonna hit or not? And the kind of the internal and external sides of the offer. So that's the thing I would love to dig into today. Yeah, that's awesome. Just a little bit more background. You and I have known each other since I'm gonna say something like 2010 or 2011. I think so. Something like that. So when I say Tad's a friend, a lot of people introduce various sort of interviews. Like, oh, my good friend so-and-so. It's like, well, I've known that person for two weeks over email. My good friend. But yeah, Tad and I go way back. Yes, so let's talk about, so first of all, just for to set context, what is an offer? Okay. So those people can know what we're talking about. Well, I think of the offer is, you know, we have whatever product or service we're selling and the offer is, I suppose, the way it's packaged together, put together with a price tag on it.  You might buy a whole set and each of those would be a distinct offer.  Maybe it might be a weekend workshop that you lead. Maybe it might be a free call once a month. Maybe it might be a package, a year-long package. So it's kind of whatever it is that you have a price tag on that you're wanting to share with the marketplace. Interesting. So even if it's a free thing, because, and then that's really interesting because if an offer is really well-aligned with one's audience, then there's a large number of them who sign up for it at whatever the price is of that offer, right? Yeah. And it's a mistake people think, oh, but it's free. Like I offer a free call on my website. Why does nobody book? Imagining that there's no risk. Imagining that they haven't seen that offer a million times and imagining that they don't know that it's a sales call. So it's, even when there's no, in fact, sometimes when it's free, people stay away from it because let's say an intro workshop, people think, oh, it's free. Therefore it must be just a pitch. That's how he's getting away with doing it for free is he's selling something really hard. So it's still an offer. One still has to make the case, even if it's free, that it's worth their time, that it's worth the risk of being bombarded by a sales pitch from the front of the room. Yeah. And the opportunity cost of like, well guys, there's a million free things today. So why yours? Yeah. I mean, everyone just look at your desktop and see how littered it is with all the PDFs you intended to read. And maybe that you bought and you spent money on. So it's, yeah, the opportunity cost is huge. And I think that's more and more people are having to discern, you know, I got this from a guy in Seattle years ago, Dominic Canterbury. And he talked about the three things that need to be established in any offer. It's the relevance, credibility and value as a kind of shorthand. And so it has to be relevant, like this is useful for me in some way, it helps me with my problem. But number two, it has to be credible to have to trust it. And third, there has to be value in it. You know, you've got to have all three. And if you're missing any one of them, they don't, it doesn't work anymore. And so people will think about, oh yeah, I've got my nation, I've got my point of view. And then somebody's like, oh, I'd love to work with you. What would that look like?  I mean, we can just kind of freestyle. And it leaves people very groundless and people spend all this time, they'll work on their sales copy. They'll work on their Facebook ads and they'll do everything. But then when you look at the offer itself, the offer isn't that good. And there are certain metrics you can use, quantitative qualitative to look at your offer and make it better. And you can see where it's strong, where it's weak and evaluate it. And most people don't do this. And so they wonder, they just think, oh, I need to get better at marketing. It's like, no, your offer needs to be better. Sometimes it's that, sometimes they haven't articulated it well enough. And sometimes it's just like, oh, this is a generic offer. I've seen this a million times. There's nothing special about this. So why would I, even if I see it as relevant, like, yo, yeah, you're talking about an issue I struggle with. Well, you seem like a trustworthy person, but then I got to the value piece. And I'm like, but I don't see the value. And so this is something we really need to dig into, I think, when we're creating our offers is how do we make our offers valuable? And to really understand, especially, I mean, you and I mostly work with service providers, but to really understand what is value for them, how is that even defined? And there are some, especially for a service provider, there are very predictable things that constitute value. Yeah, that's awesome. And so you were mentioning that you had read this book about the seven sort of factors for a good offer and you wanted to add a couple more too. Yeah. So this comes from Tom Pollan's book, Lead Zology, which is great. I mean, the whole book is worth it just for this. He calls it the value slider.  And it's kind of a one through 10 slider that you can imagine. And so I'll go over the, he had seven, but I'm adding a couple of things to the end. So on the, let's imagine there's external and internal, external meaning, how do they perceive it and experience it and internal meaning, how do we as the entrepreneur perceive and experience it? So the first slider is, I mean, he kind of goes into, in my mind before value, but is it irrelevant or relevant? So zero is irrelevant, 10 is relevant.  I don't know, it's like zero or relevance. Like, what does this have to do with my divorce? Versus a week- Although it might bring some comfort. Maybe. Okay, so the one, it's a one out of 10. But you know, versus a weekend workshop called how to stop your painful divorce even if it seems impossible. You know, that's a 10 out of relevance. That doesn't mean they'll buy, but it does mean they'll look at it and say that is speaking to my pain. So that's the first thing is to look at how much have we nailed the relevance? How much are we speaking to the problems they have, the results, you know, in the offer itself? Because it's not enough to just say, but my work could help them with, it's like, right, but it has to be in the title. It has to be very clear and explicit. And by the way, I mean, it's not that the person selling his scented candle doesn't have a business. Obviously they do. Because lots and lots and lots of other people would find the scented candle relevant. It's just, you're talking to the wrong audience at that point, right? Totally, yeah. Right, for a spa, for example, scented candles might be they just go through hundreds of them a day, you know? And so it's completely relevant there or you run meditation workshops or something on these candles are great. So yeah, this is where, of course, we have to go back to the nation. Who are my people and is this relevant to them? But of course, if we're trying to appeal to everybody, you can't get to relevance. And so to me, it's dead in the water. If you get like a zero on relevance, it's just stop. Nothing else in this list is gonna be that helpful. But the second thing is a slider from that the offer, the result you're offering is really vague to it's very measurable. So vague to measurable. So vague would be, yeah, you know, you're wanting to get in shape and by the end of this, I think you'll probably give me some progress somewhat. Yeah, that's vague. Or, oh yeah, you've got allergies. Yeah, well, you know, when we do the work together by the end, they'll probably be, I don't know, you'll notice some, there'll be some changes of some kind. And so what are you versus very measurable? Measurable meaning you won't have allergies anymore. You're gonna gain 25 pounds of muscle mass. You're gonna double your profits.  You'll add 1,000 people to your email list. Something very specific that could be quantitatively, but it could also be qualitatively. But there's a very measurable result. You can know when you've got it. It's interesting because the qualitative, I mean, a lot of the people that you and I work with do more, or like holistic or spiritual transformations and it's not like they could say, you're going to be 2.5 times happier, something like that, you know, right? But maybe, I mean, because at the start of your client, during your client intake process, maybe you could do a survey that says, hey, on the scale of zero to 10, how happy are you right now before we start our work together? And then that person says, I'm a four, you know? And then by the end of the work, three months, six months a year, two years, whatever, you do the client exit survey or at least, you know, touching in survey. And now they're from a four and now they're at a seven or an eight. I mean, that's literally doubled there. I mean, and if you see this again and again, right? Then you literally could say, yeah, my client's average. I mean, the happiness is kind of a weird metric, but my client's average are like a doubling of their sense of wellbeing or something like that. Yeah, right, you could, I mean, there's a lot, we can get very creative about how we measure it. And the point is, because I know as I go through these, I can imagine people listening and saying, if I can't do that and we shouldn't have to do that. I'm just saying, all things being equal, what I'm giving is the 10 is more perceived as more valuable than a zero in each of these. That there's just a certain real talk in this of if any of us had $100 to spend and one person gave us a very specific measurement we want and the other one said, well, we'll see. We would choose the one that had the measurable, all things being equal. We would rather a much more tangible demonstrable result. And so it's just worth thinking in our offers, is there a way I could make this result more measurable? Is there a way I could make this more clear for them? Here's the thing you're gonna get at the end of this, again, so that they could know, because otherwise how will they know if it worked? You know, yeah. Yeah, it's really good. And also, I think having that kind of discipline or sort of like structure, I guess, you know, it can help one focus one's work with the client. And you might discover that different clients maybe want different metrics. Now, one client says, yeah, I want the wellbeing scale.  That's what I'm, you know, the scale, right? So it's interesting like to start asking yourself these questions as a service provider makes you go, what is, yeah, it helps focus the work better, yeah. And it may also help focus the work in that you realize, oh, some people want adventure. Some people want ease and as a result and I really prefer adventure. So that's what I'm gonna offer.  So part of it is what's the result you feel most passionate about offering and the result that you feel most competent in offering. And you can make a little, I do this with my clients all the time, a chart where it's up and down is how passionate are you side to side is how competent do you feel? And you can just take all the results that people might be craving or that you feel like you could offer and you plot them. Like, oh, this one's a two of passion but it's a 10 of competence. And of course you're looking for things that you're passionate about and competent in. But yeah, there is a certain amount of focus of, okay, I'm not gonna promise every result. I'm gonna pick a certain result and I'm gonna, and then everything in the offer, of course, can be wrapped around that result. How do we get this person to this result that they most crave? And it should be a result that they're craving. It should be a result that they really, really, really want before they come to you. Not when we have to persuade them or what we think they need or any of that. But so that's the second one is vague to measurable. And then the next one is insignificant to significant. So insignificant, it would be like, I'm gonna help you gain muscle mass. And you say, well, that's a good result. It's fairly specific. And I say, yes. And that result is gonna be, you're gonna gain about 0.1 pounds of muscle mass in the next year. Well, that's measurable. It's very measurable. But it's so like 0.1 pounds. Or if I said, yeah, we're gonna help you increase your bottom line of your corporation by, yeah, 1% over the next decade. It's just, it's very measurable, but it's so undramatic. And so that becomes a question to is like, what's the more dramatic, significant result that they would look at and say, wow, you can help me get that for real? Okay, I'll spend money because that's actually gonna make a difference in my life. So not just measurable, but significant versus like you're a little bit better, but it'll be hard to tell. I often joke, this is what I hear from, this is the least compelling pitch that I hear from a lot of energy workers is this kind of, so what happens to the energy? I don't touch the light on this table. And then I say, and you may feel something, you may not feel something, but in the next couple of weeks, you'll notice and then you might feel a lot better if you do, I'll take the credit for that. And if you don't, then it's probably your shame and fear. And you should come in for another session to work on that, you know? This is not significant. I'm gonna leave and I just don't even notice. It's if people should notice. If people don't notice that there's been a result. Okay, and then? But there is something about how some things take time to integrate, right? And so I think it is the service providers responsibility and opportunity to notice what the typical process is of transformation for a client. And to be like, yes, we have seen, I've typically seen that after this session, it takes clients three to seven days to integrate. So do be on the lookout for these certain situations or certain changes within you, right? Something like that. Yeah, well, and that ties to the fourth one, which is slow results to faster results. All things being equal, people would prefer a faster result. Now, as you're saying, it's not always possible. Sometimes it takes time. And I think there's something here too as we go through these, there are gonna be some, as people look at them, no matter how you try to wrangle it, if you're gonna get a low mark on it, you can't bump it up too much by the nature of your work. So then if you can't fix it, you feature it. You just make the case, here's why it's low. Here's why that may actually benefit you. Yes, this is slower, but here's why that's a benefit and you frame it that way. But yeah, all things being equal, people would rather have a faster result. And so part of this, if we know that and we say, okay, people would rather get it quicker, we can start to say, well, is there a way I could expedite this process? What's the 20% that makes 80% of the difference? If they want to gain muscle mass, I mean, there's a bunch of things we could do, but what's the thing that would get the fastest results for them so they could really see it and be encouraged by that? And okay, there's a bunch of stuff I had to be so good to have in there, I'm just gonna cut it to streamline it to focus it on just this result and anything that's extraneous to that, get rid of it, which then could allow you to get the result much faster because you're not asking so much homework for people. So it's just something to consider, could I make it faster for them? And again, you may not be able to, like one of the women in my membership, Jan Blake, she's a storyteller from the UK, really good storyteller. And now it just takes a while to be a good storyteller. There's not, you could probably trim some time off, but it may just take a while, but certain offers, she might be able to say, okay, being a great storyteller, that could take decades, but could I help somebody really learn one story and be able to tell it well in eight weeks? Yeah, I could do that. Give me eight weeks with somebody and I can get them to tell a story really, yeah. Or it could be like in these eight weeks, you're gonna learn really well how to start a story and how to end a story. And it could be any story you tell, but you'll notice the mark difference in how you start, which, making a video, how you start the video, that kind of thing, right? Bingo, bingo, bingo. Yeah, you could pick one aspect of it and then say, I'm gonna help you get this result, specifically in a short period of time, so yeah, faster results, people tend to be more excited about. And then number five is low ROI to high ROI. So this just means it's funny because people, of course, all things being equal, we'd rather pay less money, but the money is sometimes a red herring the price because if I looked at it and I said, man, if I spend $2,000 on this, this is a lot of people's relationship with crypto. I mean, yeah, it's $2,000, but this could turn into $10,000 quickly. So yeah, it's $2,000. And normally I wouldn't just drop two grand on something, but if it could quintuple in the next month or something, I'm in. So much of our work, we need to be looking at, okay, what is this gonna cost in terms of time, in terms of money, and how do I get them a return on investment where, as our colleague Danny Annie says, the value is greater than the cost. How can you structure things in such a way that that's true? So if somebody comes to my membership or to your membership or does our work, and they say, well, okay, I pay this amount a month, but if that turns into a new client every month and those clients come back and spend time, they're making money, they're sailing on that. If you are a relationship coach and you work with couples in crisis, you could sit them down and say, look, here there's a few ways this can go. One is, I mean, you don't need to hire me, but you just don't hire anybody and you try to work it out yourself, but you can see how that's going. There's a real likelihood that will end up in court. And that is gonna cost you tens of thousands of dollars each, like just look based on your income and all this, you is gonna cost this, you is gonna cost this, there's lawyers fees, they're just gonna try to get as much money from you as possible. And so this could cost you $200,000 or you could spend $2,000 with me to do this package to work up the stuff. So then people start to see, wait a second, that's a better return on investment. I'm gonna be saving money, saving time, saving energy. And the more we can help demonstrate that, and not just demonstrate, but it's gotta be true. We gotta be thinking, can I really give a return? That is in some ways, again, tangible, measurable, demonstrable, yeah. So there's that one as well. This is a bit of a tricky one because imagining the energy worker again, and how can, so let me ask you, so it's not that we have to be, we have to use every one of these measures, but I like that you said these measures, if you are able to use them or improve upon them, it obviously strengthens your offer and makes it much more interesting to a typical buyer. But with the energy worker, I would say, so often they have no niche, they've never thought about a problem of solving, they're freestyling every session, it's like, well, that's the best part this energy works, help everyone, everything. And if they were instead to say, I'm gonna do energy work for this particular issue, for example, it's one way of focusing, then it's like, okay, I'm gonna help people get this result. Then the energy work, let's say it's arthritis. And it's like, yeah, okay, this energy work really does help, but there are also certain dietary things, there's a whole protocol I could put together and they spend the next year, they read 20 books on arthritis, they just get everybody's opinions and they put together their own philosophy around it and they come up with an offer program that helps people with this, of which the energy work is a significant part, but they also create meditations and visualizations for their clients on arthritis that are just targeted for, you're noticing some aching in your body, bringing your attention to the aching, and imagine, visualize this and this and this, and they give them a grocery list of things to buy and the epsom salts and the, et cetera. This is now a bigger return on investment. And sometimes a return on investment, the saving of time is, I've done all the research for you. You don't have to go on YouTube and spend 100 hours trying to, I did that. Here's what I've come up with and here's the testimonials from people of, oh my God, I actually got better, because if people don't get better, what are you doing? If nobody's getting better in a way that they really notice and your response to that is to shame them for not, for being too fearful or whatever, this is just irresponsible in my view. If people don't get a result from working with us. And it's also, I think all of this helps the Serpentfighter feel much more on purpose too. Like, wow, I'm really contributing to others. Like to be able to see that happen. All of this is very sort of tangible transformations that we can see in clients. And therefore shaping our offer to be focused on that. And I think that this is really, I mean, if we apply this, it becomes everyone benefits. I think so. Yeah, I agree. And it does make us better at what we do. It does, because when you have a result you're aiming for, you got something to aim for now. And so again, that could be a tangible or less tangible result, but there's still some, gotta be something we're aiming at, I would think. And okay, so that's low ROI or high ROI. The next one, number six, is more complex to implement and simpler to implement. So again, all things being equal, people would rather something that's really easy to implement. Because if I said, look, I can help you make the most beautiful garden in the world. Now, here's what you've got to do. On the first full moon of the year, you're gonna have to strip off half of your clothes, but lengthwise, not widthwise. You're gonna need to tailor some clothes for this. Now they're gonna have to be organic cotton, half of them, but the other half will have to be organic wool. The wool part, you will bury in the ground separately.  Like it's just, if there's a million steps. There are certain clips in this that it's gonna be gold to just clip out. It's awesome. So yeah, it's too, it's not too much. It's just most people will be overwhelmed and that's unappealing to people. Versus, of course, the ultimate extension of this is you wave the magic wand, it happens, you take a pill, which isn't possible or necessarily desirable, but it's just saying the closer we can get to that, the more people will want it. And that doesn't preclude having the tough conversations with clients if this takes time, this takes effort. It's hard. That is very credibility building. It's just out of mercy for them and mercy for our own marketing and not making our marketing work too hard. Again, you go back to it. Okay, do I need to include all these steps? Are there steps I could remove and the world wouldn't fall apart because they didn't do that thing that I think is really cool? Could I just streamline this to the 80-20 thing so that it's simpler? And also part of the thing with this simplicity, which is helpful in terms of the word of mouth, like I was looking for an account in a bookkeeper years ago and man, that was a marketing education because I went to the websites and they're terrible. They're terrible. They don't have the proper process. There's no photo, there's no bio. I don't know anything about videos. And then I went to this one called Origami Accounting, I think, .ca. And at the time, they just had this little cartoon on the front and it was four panels. These were the panels as I remember them. First one is, it was like a cartoon figure. It's like, take all your receipts. Now, first of all, we send you 12 envelopes, one for every month, like FedEx envelopes. Then you throw your receipts, panel two in the envelopes. Panel three, you send us the envelope, panel four, it's all done. And it was set price. It was a fixed price, 150 a month. It didn't work for me because I have so many sources of income, which was a bummer. But for people who just have one source of income, they can do that. But I just thought, God bless you kind saints. It was such a relief just to look at it. I understand this. This is so simple. And here I am. I bet you it's a decade since I've seen that. And I can still remember all the steps. It was so simple. That's brilliant. I mean, yeah, the ability to be able to show your client, step A, B, C, D equals this result. You know, it's amazing. Thank you for that. And better for word of mouth because then they can talk about it. Here I am a decade later, remembering the name, remembering the cartoon. And I've told that to so many people in so many workshops. So if it's too complicated, they won't even try to talk about it. I mean, this is the same. I do close up magic, you know, card tricks, coin tricks and stuff. And if I do, you see some magic tricks and it's just like too complicated. First I picked a card and then I signed the card and then he tore the card up and then the card turned into a bird. And then the bird laid an egg and then that egg was a ring from this previous trick. And then a person put on the ring and then they vanished. And but then they reappeared with a card signed and they remember it wrong and all this, but it's better to say like, you know, I saw this, you know, magician and he did this trick. Wait, let me see if I have anything.  And then when he opened it up, it was all gone. It's just simple. That's really good, man. That's thank you. It's just a very simple trick, easy to remember and then therefore easy to tell people about. So all things being equal, you know, it goes back to the confused mind says no. If people are confused, they'll say no. And so it's funny, it's both for the implementing of it. Of course, it makes it easier on both of us if it's simple, but for the marketing of it, the explaining of it, because if somebody says, wow, what you're saying is relevant, that's a really dramatic result. Well, how do you do that? You try to lay it out in this million steps. You just, you'll see their eyes crossed. They lean back. They start to feel overwhelmed though. You know, I should talk to my wife about this. I'll get back to you rather than I get it. That makes total sense. And it's not necessarily that we have to take away some steps that we think are important, but might confuse them and so we're afraid. It's just that you can chunk the steps larger and frame it in a way that's understandable to the potential client. So in that example of the accounting, the four panels, there's a ton going on behind the scenes.  Totally. And also, we can, that's what a good workbook is.  Yeah, she's redoing them, I guess they're not up, but she had one called, How to Write a Lovable Homepage. And it was the best e-book I've ever seen about how to, but it was so easy. It was just, you know, do this exercise, take the answers, fill in the blanks, step by step by step.  You know, it's so simple to do, it's so simple. And so we can do, it's the difference between also Mark Silver just today, I think he did his business model training, day long thing. But imagine if you got there and he's like, okay, so the first thing you're going to want to do is you're going to want to make like a spreadsheet for your business to figure out the business model. So I'll give you 10 minutes to do that. You can, people who just collapse, but instead he says, okay, here's a link, go to it. Here's the spreadsheet, I've already done it. You just plug in the numbers. Simple, so simple to do, you know, and it's people will weep tears of relief when you give them something simple because they've tried and so hard. And it's overwhelming and so complicated, it seems. And if you can take the complexity out of it, it's like, yeah, I've tried that, but this, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just fill in this spreadsheet here. And boom, see the result? Did that just happen? I'm like, you know, it's genuine. I mean, genuine tears, people would just like out of the stress they've been carrying around this thing for so long. Yeah, that's really, really good. As you're talking through these, I'm also thinking about my own offer. It's like, okay, I'm gonna have to start making some improvements. But I think that's probably true for everyone. Another example of this I wanna share is with my membership. So in my membership, I've got like 200 topics. There's probably about 2,000 different pieces of content. It's just, it's insane. And so that's complicated and overwhelming.  So I don't know where to start. Join the club. I think we need to start a club of teachers who over give.  But it's part of what I'm starting to do is I'm creating like a really in-depth choose your own adventure quiz where dendritically branches off in a kind of mind map fashion. So it takes them where they wanna go just to make it simpler for them. So that if they ever say, I'm stuck, I don't know what to do next, no problem. Just go to this, the meantime guide or membership guide and you just start here and it'll walk you through it. So instead of them having to search through, grab the machete and hack through the underbrush of my membership, I've already got like a 1.0 version up, but I know it'll keep getting better. And ideally it'll be the kind of thing where it's like, okay, that gives me a next step. And I just had to go to this one link and do this thing instead of scroll through 200 topics, which technically, well, it's the same thing. You'd end up in one of these 200 places, but it's all at once versus here's a question, right? Here's a question, answer it, right? Here's none. And just at the end, there's the result. So how can we make it easier or simpler for them? And then the next one is harder to easier. So it's connected to this, but it's just, if I said, yeah, you want to put on muscle, well, what you've got to do? And I described some insane, it's not complicated, but it's insanely hard. It's just, you're going to have to lift 1,000 pounds, 10 times a day, and then you're going to need to do a million squats and you're going to need to, and it's like, well, simple enough, but that's overwhelmingly difficult. I can't imagine exerting. And so, you know, this is where like the high intensity interval training has its appeal. Cause the pitch is, look, if you do intermittent fasting plus high interval, you work up for 20 minutes and you get the same results as three hours in the gym, and people say, hello, I'm in. So if you can find a way that is genuinely easier to get the same result, that doesn't take the years of time, the physical effort, the financial effort, it's just easier. Of course, people would prefer that. Yeah. Wow, that's really good. And it's reminds me of, well, the whole stair step idea. It's like, if it is, it is helpful to give clients the steps, right? Like we talked about simplified, but if one, from one step to the next, it's like this giant leap. Then it's step one, giant leap to step two. Maybe there's only three steps, but each step is like two, three giant leaps. It's impossible for most people. And the next one is connected to the, maybe I should put it next to it, because there's harder to implement and simpler to implement, but there's also harder to understand and simpler to understand, which I would just make a distinction that if it's difficult to explain it, they probably won't buy. If they can't get it in a simple fashion, so how hard is it for people to understand what you do? And so this is, I mean, you and I deal with this. There's probably one of the most common questions you and I get is how do I articulate what I do? Because I go to articulate it and I get the response of, that's neat.  But hey, good to meet you.  It's not landing because the way you're describing it and maybe the way you've structured it is harder to understand. Because if you say, yeah, I've got a weekend workshop coming up and it's, oh, it's just so powerful. It's a mix of the work to reconnects, the work of Byron, Katie, some nonviolent communication and then there's some theta healing, there's a gong bath, some cacao ceremony, all that. There's a certain point, people lose track of all the things and it's just like new agey woo woo stuff is happening, got it. And then they're either into that or they're not. But it's confusing. It's difficult to understand what is happening versus if you say, yeah, we got a weekend workshop coming up and it's for, you know how sometimes there's a divorce and the father's, there's just bitterness. And there's a lot of dads who just maybe feel bitter in the court system and all this. It's a workshop for men to help them kind of heal from this in such a way that they're in a place to actually create a better relationship with their ex than they've ever had and even when they were together and just to heal all the wounds that are there. And that's what we're doing is working on the tools and the inner work and seeing where they're carrying responsibility and guilt and shame. I'd be like, okay, I kind of get it. I get what it is. So harder to understand, simpler to understand. If it's simpler to understand, people are gonna lean in. If it's harder to understand, I need to think about it. Let me get back to you and they probably won't. And then the last one, this is when I added is a scale from, this may seem the opposite of everything I've just said, but it's the scale on the one on the low end is like that's too good to be true. And then the 10 is that could work. Because if we trigger the, oh, that's too good to be true, the kind of hype. That's, it's no good. I mean, I suppose it's like that couldn't work too. That could work as a spectrum, but too good to be true triggers that that probably won't work. It's unbelievable. There's no credibility to it. And so all things being equal, they would rather have something that's like, because that's what it should be after we talk to them or they look at our marketing, there's a clear result. And when they hear the approach, it's simple to understand that I think that could work. When I saw the four envelopes thing, I was like, that works. That's amazing. I totally get it. So they should have some trust in the process itself. So those are the nine things that I think people are looking at. And it's worth doing this on a piece of paper and taking like any one offer that you have and just sitting down and ranking it. And also, if you're in a membership like Georgia's or mine or you've got colleagues and friends, you could sit down and say, look, I want to explain my offer. I'm gonna set a timer for 10 minutes. I'm gonna talk, you ask me anything you want. And then I'd like you to fill this out. I'll explain what these all are, but you just give me your honesty. We did this with Jan Blake and the membership and it was really revealing. I said, okay, tell us a bit about it. And on one level, we didn't have enough information, but on another level, that's perfect because that's how it often is. And people ranked certain things really low, certain things really high. And so it was just, you start to see, oh, this is where my offer's weak. Can I do anything about this to bump it up one or two? Or what would it take for this to be a 10? Could it be a 10? It gives you a direction in improving. Instead of just, how do I make my offers better? It's how do I improve this narrow slice of it? Right, it's brilliant. And it's a journey. I just wanna encourage everyone to like, it's not that if you're not at a 10 or a seven on many of these, that somehow your offer's a failure because some offers are able to get clients and sales at, even though it's a two or three on many of these things. I mean, who knows? So, but yes, if we can gradually over time step by step, bit by bit, just say, all right, let me try improving this slider a little bit, this month or this quarter, it's just gonna get better over the years. Yeah, and every once in a while, you may just sit down and take an offer and say, okay, time to retool this. And you just really go to town. You do a little charrette, a brainstorm with some colleagues and you just think, how do I make this a much more compelling offer? Because if, I mean, I agree. I think for most, you'll never hit a 10 on everything, just the nature of some offers. But if you were like a seven consistently, or an eight all the way down, you wouldn't have to market as hard. The offer really would market itself, the word of mouth would be better. It'd be easier to write sales and it easier to describe it, et cetera.  And I think these are also important because the first part is the offer attractive to them. And those nine things, the 10 level, that's in my mind where they consider attractive. But then there's also, is it attractive to us? And this gets left out and it kills a lot of businesses. The four ones to me are, is it from simple to offer, from overwhelmingly complex to offer? Because I think all of us have had programs where it's like, oh my God, there's so many moving parts. I just finished the call. Now I got to write up a follow up email and I've got to send notes to every single person I coached in there. And then I've got to, oh, you know it's, and I'm doing 30 classes every month. And I personally, and it just gets so overwhelming. So if it's simple to offer, you're more likely to offer. You know, I love what you said here because I often tell clients, listen, try leaning back a little bit more in your work with clients, like metaphorically speaking. Like you don't always have to be leading their transformation. Really ideally they're leading their own transformation and using you as a coaching consultant or a healer or whatever. But they're in charge and that they're like, I make my clients write up their own summary. I mean, they don't have to, but it's like the follow up email says, hey, what was one takeaway and what's one thing you wanna do by the next time we meet again? It's like, my client calls are like, I take five minutes to prep and then there's no follow up work. And yet they really enjoy it. It's like, we all can, there is an offer for each of us where it can be that easy. That's my opinion. Well, that's been my puttering sessions, you know? I just answer and I tell people, I won't look at my laptop. I'm not looking at your website. I'm not reading anything you sent me in advance. There's no follow up. We're just talking for an hour. And I tidy or I go for a walk. Simple. It's really easy. But yeah, so it's simple for us is a big deal. Then the next one is, is it how sustainable is it? You know, zero other side is burned out. And the other side is it's sustainable in terms of time, energy and money. And looking at any offer, that's worth paying attention to because sometimes I see people doing an offer even just financially. It's like, oh yeah, you're losing money doing this. Because they haven't factored in all the costs. Yeah, you're doing a live retreat. But you got to pay the venue. You're paying the caterer. Did you notice that you have to pay for gas and for your car or you rent a car? And then you've got the shuttle bus. And then, you know, when we add all this up, you're paying your assistant, were you paying them to help with this? And your time, it's just they lose money. I've actually done that with retreats myself when I used to leave them a decade ago. So yes, I can raise my hand on that. Yeah, so that's an important thing for an offer is just how sustainable is it? Can you keep it going? The third one is from unfulfilling to, you know, deeply satisfying. And there's certain kinds of offers that it's like, I don't like working with these people. This isn't meaningful for me. And of course that isn't gonna last. And the last one is, is it kind of from like, is it a one-time offer? Or is it something you can do regularly? Like weekly, monthly, annually, et cetera. Because I have, I mean, four things I do, 30 day events I do once a year, and I just repeat them. And I got it, oh man, because I've just started today, I just did my first call for the Marketing for Hippies one-on-one, 30 day. It's so nice to go into the notes from last year and like, oh yeah, here's the outline. And then, oh, I gotta change this and this and this. And I went into the kind of like orientation page for that week and oh, I gotta make a bunch of changes. But I know every year I do it, it's less changes. In the meantime, I've done 11 years now. And it's just, it's the minor smallest tink rings. And I just get to show up and enjoy it rather than the whole work of redeveloping a curriculum, rewriting a sales page, redeveloping a whole sales strategy. So if you have an offer that is simple for you, it's sustainable for you. It is satisfying for you. And it's also something that you can repeat. To me, that's a winner. So then that to me is attractive to me. And if then it's also attractive to them, everything gets easier in the marketing. We don't have to bang our head around the sales copy quite as hard. We don't have to try to bribe people as much to spread the word. It's just everything starts to happen. It becomes a lot smoother. So those are the nine things for the external, the four things for the internal, I'll probably add more. I'm sure you have thoughts too of things to add, but... This is amazing and a lot of food for thought for myself too. I'm gonna make sure all my clients watch this. And no, this is awesome. The only thing I'll say is that I've been kind of lazy about offers for quite some time because I've been kind of taking this like alternative path strategy, which is not necessarily easy for a lot of people where at least it takes time, which is just the whole day of the whole true fan strategy, right? Like if you... Which actually I think you have a bunch of true fans. Like if you show up often enough with caring content and you almost become like a household name for them, you can sell almost anything that you really believe in. Hopefully matches some of the, at least the internal characters, because not the external one. And you'll still get some sales. And yes, now if we can move the sliders over towards the 10, it amplifies it way more. And so anyway, I just wanted to, yeah. Yeah, I hear you, because it's part of it is, especially these things are particularly useful when you're starting out, I think. As we develop and we get a reputation, it is easier. Sometimes I've said to people, they say, well, what can I offer is value for this weekend workshop. The value is they get to hang out with you for a weekend. That's really what they want.  If he was coming to Alberta and he did an event, I wouldn't even look at this. I wouldn't even know the name of it. I just, he's coming. Where is he gonna be? I show up like whatever he wants to talk about. So that takes time to build. Yeah. And once you've got that reputation, and as long as you know you can deliver, you don't need to put as much effort and bells and whistles and all this, but in the beginning, where they don't know your name, chances are they're not glad you came. What do you do? How do you get them to say yes at all? No, I totally agree. I mean, the more you need clients sooner, the more you need to pay attention to these sliders. Whereas if you are in a lucky position like Steven Jenkins and or to some extent the two of us, we can be much, we can be way more relaxed about the offers and still getting the sales. But for the most of people watching this. And the marketing, like when I first went to Toronto doing workshops, oh man, dozens of personal emails to hubs. I would host parties and bring people together. I would do so many intro workshops. Now I got a day long workshop. I don't do the weekend one. I just do a day long workshop. It's a pavich can. I send a few emails. I put up a post. I tag a bunch of people in Toronto. Takes me about an hour. And that's it. I do maybe a Facebook ad or two, but it's not very much. I really don't do a lot. And if I did all that, would it work better? Yeah, but I got other things to do. And just to bring it back to the fact that these sliders help the service provider focus their work. And so it's like, it's the ability to cut out all the other possibilities that they could work on and go, ooh, this, if I can get this result for people, that would be really satisfying. And it would be, it would spread, you know, the word would spread much more easily. But Tad, this has been awesome. And I wanna make sure people know about your membership because you offer so much generosity and help and support in there. So, and the fact that you now have a choose your own adventure thing is super helpful. There are people that I know in the membership who are loving it. And, okay, so maybe you could give us a quick, like, and there are multiple tiers to the membership too, right? So like, tell us about who should join the membership, what they will get from it basically, and what are the options there? The, well, I mean, it's the same as you. I think people should join. People who hear what I have to say, who really like it, who wanna work with me and dig into my material more in depth. I suppose that's the target market in question. How much access do they get to your, what's the amount of, you know, live things you do in the membership? I do a weekly call for the pro members. That's a hundred US a month.  I do every once a quarter, I do a three hour deep dive into point of view marketing. Once a month, I do a target market review. So there's quite a few. And then four days a week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, there are community led calls. I'm not at them, but they dig into different aspects and get people a chance to connect with each other. So there's that. And then, you know, all my ebooks are there, my videos, my everything. And I'm trying to get as organized as possible.  And George, by the way, I also sent you a copy of the link to that article I did about the value slider and a link to the membership. Awesome. So you can see it, but feel free to share this article that I wrote with your members because I've written up sort of a description of what each of them are, the levels, and it may help. Excellent. I look forward to sharing that. Tad, thank you so much for the work you do. This was awesome, really helpful. Like I said, I'm gonna make sure as many people see this as possible because I think this is gonna help everyone, including myself. So awesome. Anything else you wanna say last final, you know, any other upcoming events or offers or anything? I don't think so. Okay, okay, that's a good place to complete them. All right, thanks, Tad. Take care, George.


Welcome to figments the power of imagination. I'm so excited about today's episode because I'm not talking about gas prices, or the Ukraine or coven, or any of the other myriad of things that have us. Don't want to press these days. I'm going to talk about something phone with somebody I like about hot gun member can give a fighter pilot review with my good friend Dallas Thompson retired major general Air Force type and fellow fighter pot. And we're going to review this movie without spoilage just so you know you feel free to watch this if you haven't seen the movie. We're going to not ruin it for you so let me say aloha Dallas and welcome from, or should I say howdy since you're in Granbury, Texas. Howdy aloha goes means the same thing here. Yeah okay. Hey this can be funny you just saw the movie two nights ago I think you and I have similar past we worked together some we talked about things that matter to us. serious things. But basically we're just fighter pilots in our paths were similar and converged at a certain point I got a few pictures to flip through to talk about us and then about you. So we both went to pilot training the T 38 jet there, and everybody's got to get their picture like that. Those are the days on. Yep. I looked at you when you sent your picture I saw the Air Force issue hack watches we called it because you could hack the time very easily, extremely low tech. And then they made you wear a name tag that just had your name on hat on half of the delta row, waiting for wings, and you looked like the dork student that you were compared to the guys who had a nice bright shiny pair of wings to top it. So that brings back memories but then in 2003 are passed across directly in Bahrain, quite and Iraq. When we were both air component coordination element directors during the invasion Iraq operation Iraqi freedom that brings back some memories doesn't it. Yep. And the reason you were the ace directors it was called to the Navy was you had a Navy background in your Air Force group that I'll share with them. That got you to fly Navy airplanes through friendships that you'd made maybe. I on the other hand made my friends in the army and what did that get me a, an all expense paid road trip about to Baghdad. I should have chosen better. Now I enjoyed my time with the army that yours was a little more pleasing to a fighter pilot. So you were an F 15 fighter pilot in your first fighter assignment after being an instructor near training command the mighty eagle. And we might have time to debate which airplanes were those kiddos with you. You probably can't see. Well they were both, those are my two oldest granddaughters, and they were both at the movie with me on Saturday night. Which is very cool we'll get to that in a bit the mighty eagle, a great airplane. After that. After you want to fight a weapons school which is analogous but not the same as top gun. You went and flew the F 18 and the F 14 with the Navy. What's going on here you get a nice cool drink of water after a demanding sortie in the F 18. When, when I was offered the job by the skipper out at VX for I said, hey, can I go to the ship. Will you send me to the ship. Even though that wasn't necessarily part of the duties. I mean, it was, it turned out it worked out. They worked it into a test, but we had to take an airplane to airplanes to the ship to do a viable test. Before I took the job, the guy that offered me the job said, absolutely I'll send you a ship. So there I'm just just got back from two days on the ship, and my Navy wings are at the bottom of that mug of champagne. So I had to chug the champagne to get my Navy only one way to get him. And that's a big deal because to go to the ship doesn't just mean you take a little robot or something. You have to carry your onboard delivery and you have to actually be able to land on the ship and planning and the catapult takeoff is really something to experience. So you have to fly, fly both the Hornet and the F 14 and both featured in top gun versions, actually, both of them in the latter version. So that gives you a unique perspective viewers what I'm doing you're setting the table for why Dallas Thompson is the ultimate commentator on this, because you're also a graduate of fighter weapons school, and got a picture you and your fighter weapons school class whoops that's your viper time there. Hopefully we'll get your fighter weapons school class up here. And if not we'll just say you went to fighter weapons school which is like top down only different what are the differences between top down and fighter weapons school. Now, very few. Then, completely different. And the difference was when, when I went to fighter weapons school my instructors were instructors in the F 15. We flew with them were paired with the fighter weapons school instructors. In those days, the instructors were the adversary. It's just like they were in the original top gun movie. Over time as a matter of fact towards the end of my time at weapons and flying F 16s that the two schools had regular exchanges. And the Navy moved to the Air Force model. Right. Which was, which was more robust, frankly, I mean, the top gun, not to denigrate it was largely a flying experience. And the fighter weapons school in the Air Force was and remains really doctoral level. It's a fine thinking writing, leading program. And now that they are more similar. So you will have some guys that I know Rick gone be on Birkbelt, Tim Fida, other folks in your class may but where you are we're not the top graduate in your fight a weapons school. I was not. Tim fighter. Distinguished graduate. I was a distinguished great Tim fighter. And he was my closest buddy in that class, so that brings that's exactly what I want to come a visit. Is it a nice man Maverick kind of a rivalry. I don't think I mean there were, there were guys. There were guys that, you know, wanted to, wanted to kind of chip at the at your, at your shoulder, you know, kind of peck at you a bit. I didn't, I didn't take the bait, most of the time I got most of the time, most of the time. So, no, Fido and I were, were great buds. I got he won the flying trophy I won the academic trophy. At home, we were stationed in Germany at the time that my wife was staying with my parents. And we went to graduation from weapons school we came took a Southwest flight home very early the next morning and I walked in and show them the trophy for the academic trophy. And my mother looks at me says why didn't you win the flying trophy. Yeah, way to go mom. And I said because Tim flight it was my class. But there is, there is competition. And sometimes it takes on a bit of a personal note. When we get deep into the movie reunion about two minutes before we'll talk about how that was what you thought of, or if they did it in this movie, the, it did bring back memories for me. And I was on the elliptical a day or two later at the gym, and just thinking do I have any, any top gun like memories, and I did not go to weapons school, kind of a little late to the eagle and it's a, you know, the only the right people go to butter weapons and I know the right one. I think I was damn good but but but anyway, I thought about a training sorry. My I stand with at the time briefly for this moment was a guy named frog field did you ever know Clark frog field was an egg one guy before that f fours and f fives at Clark as an aggressor. Excellent fighter pop but somebody that you'd love to shoot. You know I'm saying frog was leading the 12 or so adversaries.  And we went on did pretty well I was the mission commander. But the moment was when I was looking for the last bad guy alive and an f five popped up over ridge line. And I went to the radio frequency where you make a call directly to the bad guys and said, Fox do kill lizard f five right turn Eva Valley.  So, I'm sorry for sharing that with the whole world but. You're a great fighter pilot and shooting you was a lot of fun. Okay, so speaking of frogs and ice men and we know we'll talk a little bit about movies later. Were you always Dallas and where does that call sign come from. But back in those days, I imagine it was the same impact as it wasn't you safety. Yeah, we all had we all had to have a personalized call sign so that when we let a flight. It was Dallas flight or whatever so it had to be de conflicted throughout the theater. So as part of in those days I was a big Dallas cowboy. I am so sorry to hear that. It's harder now than it was. But anyway, anyway we the first squadron party that that we were at on base housing there at Bitburg. I wanted to be cowboy but a guy in the sister squadron the two was already count. Yeah. So anyway, we had a squadron party and I was kind of set up. And I was introduced to this drinking game with a beverage called Stroh's rum it's an Austrian rum, like 120. Excuse me, this was a drinking game with butter but it was. It was, and I, and it was also the first time that AFR TS was televising a live football game and it happened to be the Cowboys and the Redskins. The overseas TV service for unfortunately personnel for those. I got a little I got a little fired up. And the next day I walked into the squadron that was a Sunday night next Monday morning I walk into the squadron. Squadron commander was a guy named Jim Vegas Cox. And he had his feet up on the ops desk. And he looked at me and he says you're dealt with how kind name is Dallas. And so it was, so you never had one before that I actually had something other than pig from pilot training guy named Tony method the late Tony method sadly passed away lessons. Yeah. pilot training up for you classmate. I won't share that today. I have part of what happens and if you ever walk in folks to a fighter squadron heritage room which may look oddly like a bar. You might notice a really nice TV or stereo that was probably purchased by somebody who bought their way out of the call sign they didn't want. So that's why it works. It is part of the culture who is the original ice man. Alice, I told you. You just gave me the answer to that. I did. It's been years since I've watched the hunters but it's my dad flew at 86. Oh really. Yeah. So that is for, you know, sentimental reasons that's one of my favorite movies. I had forgotten completely the Robert the Robert mission character was ice man. So he was an NFL what a great movie but we're supposed to talk about top gun Maverick which is a huge ship. And not just with fighter pilots like us it's a huge yet a bit of escape is that I think we all need. Did you like it. We did. I liked it very very much. I liked it. Why did you like it. What, what did you like about them. I think it was a more serious. Okay I think it was a more serious. It was a more serious script. It was a more serious story. I think the flying, even though there was a lot of CGI intermix with it. I thought the flying was was generally more realistic. I was impressed with the way that they worked. This may be a spoiler but the concept of mission reversal. Yeah, I was thinking about that as we got ready to do this. And I was impressed with that. I was impressed with the notion that old girlfriends never go away they can pop back up at any time. Not going there. I hope that's only in the movies. And you said the flying was more realistic wasn't totally realistic. No, was it. I shared a comment from boa straight, another great fighter pilot, you know, and other weapons. The boa flew at fives in the original top ground and what did he tell you about the evolution of the flying in the original top gun. It was a couple of years after the movie had come out and we were at a party at Langley and and boa was there and we just got to talking. And he said you know the producers came in right up front and they said they want this flying to be completely realistic. Everything all the tactics, everything to be just as we would do it in combat. So early on, they came in and we're watching the rushes of the first aviation film with the producers and the producers look up on the screen at the gun camera film and they go, What's that. And the guys go, Well, that's the target that's that's the a four out in front of a little spec. That's a spec. And he goes, Well, how far away is it? He says, Well, I'm hard of the envelope. I'm 6000 feet hard of the envelope through for a heat seeking missile shot. So the producers kind of huddled after all that they looked through that and they came in the next day and they said, Forget everything we said about the flying being realistic. We want you up tucked in real here and real close so you know we can see the other airplane and and so that that part went out the went out the window I thought the second version. It was not completely realistic, but it was much more than the original and I, I took note of that. Yeah, I thought they did a great job and I haven't found a fighter pilot who really took on bridge with the poetic license that the producers had to take to make it watchable. Because, you know, as we know we're flying two miles apart in our tactical formation, and that isn't right up there filling up the big screen so they have to do it I thought they did an excellent job of it. I thought there are two elements. Dallas have like your thoughts in this, and I'll break them into those two elements and address each separately that were totally unrealistic. Number one, the whole and I don't want to spoil it, but the notion that a fighter pilot would enter a bar not knowing the rules. I found that offensive. That's the movie, but yeah, come on man. But I thought that I thought the, the post, the post to the to the original faux pas was very realistic. Yeah, absolutely. And it was, it was fun and, you know, it's hard to capture. It is hard to convey what we experienced as fighter pups and I what I think young fighter pilots do today it's a special world folks and I'm not going to apologize for having been blessed with getting good or the fact that many of you wouldn't like elements of it to that get over. I thought they captured that the camaraderie, the spirit with one exception really well. How about you do that. Do that feel right to you. No, and actually I felt like it was more. The whole teamwork. As opposed to the competitive aspect of the first movie. Yeah, I thought that that was a much better vehicle to show mission, the primacy of mission, the primacy of the best, the best pilots get to fly the mission, regardless. Yep. I thought that was a good story.  William tell being there for worldwide weapons competition, but performance matters and really nothing else matters more than that. And so, but the best people that Dallas I thought they did a real good job in in that sequencing and teamwork, even though it wasn't technically perfect. The idea of somebody designating for somebody else and the timing having to be perfect and well I have done that in combat in. And it was it exactly like that. No, is it really hard. Yes, do you count on everybody. Absolutely. When it goes right. It's pretty good feeling. It doesn't always go right. So, I thought that was really, they did capture the team work very well. The, how did it how did it make you feel when you walked out of theater, you know, what are you a young fighter pod again in your own mind what, what was the dealio. One of the granddaughters that was in the picture of the city eagle that that was taken at a museum Peterson Air Force Base. When we went in she said granddad I want to sit next to so all all through the movie she's leaning over and she's asking me questions is this real is can this be done whatever. And I felt like I was a technical advisor to the, to the audience, you know, I love it. Yes, I felt, I felt great I felt great at being able to help her understand better what it was that I was like you say very privileged to get to do. Yep. And kids. There was a little bit of discussion, taking all the grandkids because it was a PG 13. We ran it up the, ran it up the approved family flagpole flagpole and it was all approved, and they all had, they all loved it, they all had a blast so great. That was probably the thing that made me feel best about the whole experience. I hundred and I were blessed to watch it in historic hangar 79 Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum with a huge American flag blowing the breeze there in Fort Island. The first building attack, the attack on Pearl Harbor with a hornet and a Tomcat behind us. And I've got goosebumps right now thinking about it. That was a great environment. But I hundred didn't know me as a young fighter pilot, she knows me now and she's heard the stories and she's running enough of my friends that for me the, the best thing was, and again, I'm aware of not spoiling movie for folks. Was it illustrated something that she's come to know about me from from hearing me and meeting a few of my flying friends. And that's it. I was always a stickler on discipline, calm radio communication.  There might have been a few words, a couple words between them. Time is so important. And if you're not disciplined in training, I'm sorry, you're not going to get more disciplined while you're being shot at my validated that three later by getting shot at a bit. Yeah. So that isn't the way Hollywood does it okay there's got to be drama, because it's a move. And that's fine. So we walked out of top down Maverick. The first thing I did was turn to Alejandra said me more. What did you learn. She smiled and said, Chuck. Yes. So it was I just thought it was a great movie and really something the audience needs because it hasn't been much fun lately. It was a fun movie and it illustrates folks who will sacrifice for their country and give something back. We didn't risk it all. We did. We're lucky. We didn't have to pay the piper, but we know folks who did. And you know that's sad but it's not tragic tragic would be not having people like that they were willing to pay that price in my mind. So, anything else about the movie, other than go watch it people go see. My very first impression, that's the first movie I think I've been to where the star of the movie leads off the entire presentation, and thanks you for attending. I had not seen it. Now that maybe is a little spoiler. But that that set me on the right frame of mind. Right off the bat. My another thought that I had getting ready for this discussion with you Dallas is there were there were things that weren't quite right from a tactical fighter pilot perspective. The movie moved so quickly, you didn't have time to dwell on one of the real beauties of it is it's just a boom boom boom, not so fast. If you blink you miss it sometimes spy throwers are like that. Wait a minute who was it. This was a well paced and rapidly paced movie that kept you flying right to the finish. Great. I really enjoyed it. Well Dallas, it's been great to review that people go see the movie. I know that, as I said the tragic thing isn't people we lose. It would be not having people like that. You're one of the folks who flew fighters and could have retired comfortably but you stay actively involved in security matters and I know that because you write a lot. I tend to write a lot. How did, how did that happen how did, once you finished flying you were later the chief of staff at norad north com and had other key jobs within the Air Force Reserve hierarchy but what are you doing and why are you doing it. When I was the chief at norad north com. And again I retired 10 years ago this July. A lot of the things that are out in open source right now. We're still behind glass five doors. The concern, especially with the development of cruise missiles. And the improvements to specifically the Korean intercontinental ballistic missiles. We're causing my commanders, all three of them. We were deeply involved with the missile defense agency, the whole time I was there so if I can shorten the answer. It was at the very top of my boss's problems. And so I became, and the rest of the staff became deeply involved in searching out solution sense. Things became unclassified through the years, and I could speak to those issues because I had just seen it in James come out, you know, the day or two before. I am, I'm very concerned about the defense of this country, not just the homeland, but Hawaii, and our forces in the Pacific. In Europe, their ability to defend themselves against missile attacks. And it's not I don't feel like I'm on a, I'm tilting it when meals, but I do want to help elevate the discussion level so that specifically members, staffers, decision makers within the department and the administration may have a completely agnostic view. There's no agenda, there's no policy, and there's no politics. It's just the facts, and hopefully a thread drawn for them on a solution, a way for. Yeah, and that's why I like talking with you working with you. This is kind of a spoiler alert Dallas and I have been working on a thought piece about about nuclear blackmail. We think there's been a very significant transition and thinking on the nuclear weapons around the world, and we're worried about it. We care about our country, we didn't care about our country in the world we wouldn't have done what we did. Yeah, it was a hoot. Yeah, we had fun at the bar and Friday night and the love flying fast low, doing all those things. The basic motivation was to defend the country. So, Dallas, I really appreciate your friendship and, and the chance to work and think with you. And today to talk the movie. I got a heavy back then you passed, you said baby I wouldn't want but we have to talk your flanker story and being the first Western pilot qualified in the suit 27 flanker way back in 1994 right. We had a couple pictures that I kind of skipped over that. I think I can find it here of you and a cockpit in a flanker. We'll see. There you are. And you did this in Russia with Russian support and being Russia was what it was called was fair picture. So will you come back and talk about that with me. Absolutely would love to. It's been great. Let me close with the, what would fig do, and what fig would do is go watch the movie top and give yourself a break. Then go find on YouTube. The hunters I'll be back on the 27th so another thing to do is join me there. I have no idea what I'm going to talk about yet because the world is provided too many options. So please join me for pigments with power of imagination. You can find both pigments and pigments on reality. The other version I did for a while on YouTube Spotify, etc, etc, or at the think tech homepage. And with that, let me thank think tech Hawaii, our platform that gives citizen journalists a chance to pontificate will be whatever rate but today just review movie Dallas Thompson major general retired. It's a green fighter pilot. It's been great having you aloha brother. Thank you sir.