Welcome to this event for this new book, The Forever Prisoners. So I'm just coming to focus here with the Forever Prisoner, the full and serious account of the CIA's most controversial covert program. It's authored by Kathy Scott Clark and Adrian D.V. Kathy is here today to discuss the book. She and Adrian have written a number of books together, including the Exile, a very detailed account of the post-911 Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. The siege, a really excellent account of the Taj, the attack on the Taj hotel in Mumbai, by Dashkar at Tiber. Spent a great deal of time in South Asia, Pakistan, and we're delighted, Kathy, Osha should mention that this was, the book was turned into a film, which was directed by Alex Gibney, an excellent film. Kathy, let me turn it over to you to open it up with kind of the big themes and interesting stories in the book and congratulations on the publication, which is tomorrow in the United States. Thank you very much, Peter. I'd quite like to start by just a little bit of explanation as to how the book came about. It really came out of the research and the work we were doing on the previous book, The Exile, which was an account of Osama bin Laden, the last 10 years in Pakistan on the run, as told by his family members and Shura members and trying to tell the al-Qaeda story rather than the western version of his story. And because he was on the run, obviously, US government was looking for other people to pick up and one of the people, the first high-value detainee to be picked up was Abbi Zabeda in March 2003, sorry, 2002. And he was really just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But because he was the kind of first big name to be captured, everything was thrown at him. And until we started work on this new book, I just felt his story and the story of enhanced interrogation had never really been told properly. I mean, we hadn't heard from him because he was deemed to be incommunicative the rest of his life from the day the CIA decided to subject him to enhanced interrogation. And I didn't, Jim Mitchell, the architect of the EIT program had just started talking when I started researching. He'd done one interview, I think, with Vice, but it was very kind of like CIA narrative driven and not, in my opinion, particularly informative. So I came to the States in February 2017 and knocked on his door in Florida and he threatened to call the FBI on me and threw me out. And said, I've got nothing to say to you. I don't talk to journalists. And I said, I'll come all the way from London. He said, I don't care if you come from Mars. I'm not going to talk to you. But luckily I had a very kind of tenuous connection to him because another previous book that we've written was about a kidnapping of six Westerners in Kashmir in 1995. Both of whom never came home. And one of the people who never came home was one of Jim's best friends, a guy called Donald Hutchings. So I sort of thrust this book into Mitchell's hands and I said, look, have a look at this. I'm going to drive off and go and look at the coast and give me a ring if you would let me come back and talk to you. And later that day he did bring me back. And he said, okay, you can come and sell yourself to me and I'll decide. And the rest is kind of history. I mean, the following five years, I got to know him and his wife, Kathy, very well. He introduced me to a lot of his professional and personal friends. And I think we did get to know each other extremely well. And I got to know the program and the beginnings, the genesis of the program and the rollout of the program very, very well. And it was a very interesting period of time. Getting to know someone who is labeled publicly as a torturer and trying to decide myself whether or not he is. And at the same time wanting to try and reach out to the man who's mostly in communicative the rest of his life. It was like in the Bantanamo. He would never spoken at all beyond his lawyers and the fact that he was in communication with me like a red bag to go. And I just thought we have to, there has to be some way to communicate with him. And eventually I did find a way to communicate with him and he has over the past five years answered practically every question that I've asked him. So yes, the product of all of that work is this book. So what, I mean, so, what are the, what are your key findings? I think the most one of the most shocking things to me is that I should preface this by saying that what with Jim I found he had a huge number of very good friends, both in the military when he was at survival school and in the CIA. I mean, genuine friends who are not just there to kind of like cover up and gather around him to just provide the truth. But I think he, he brought into the CIA something that was, was totally inappropriate, which was using survival school and not torture techniques against real life. One of the things I found most shocking when I met him and talked over multiple days over five years and to his former colleagues in Sears school was that they really did literally transplant Sears school from Spokane, Washington to the jungles outside of Chiang Mai. So they rebuilt everything that was in Sears school. They called that their school Spokane, and they have like fake military uniforms and fake decals on their, on their rusting vehicles and, and sort of set, set procedures for the power to teach us military personnel to survive torture, and then give them and to give them the tools as they call them the tools to come back from the edge and to survive and return to the US with honor. So half of that was basically unloaded on Abbott's beta without him being given the tools to come back. So they did literally turn it on its head and he Mitchell will always say that he didn't reverse engineer the survival school into enhanced irrigation but but he really did. I mean, every aspect of the program was based on the survival school from the fact they built a booze, which was bright white in the school with with a shadow curtain and light from cold and music. I mean everything was sort of transplanted, even the ideas that you have to have a safe word that you could stop things if it all got too much and survival school it was shout out flight surgeon if I'm the person being tortured. And for Abbott's beta, his safe phrase was to tell Washington what it wanted to know that the sad things that he didn't know what Washington wanted to know. So there really wasn't a safe word for him. But it was just, I found it shocking that that all of these military professionals who all had very very successful careers believed that they could turn this whole thing on its head and get extract real genuine and actionable results out of war on terror detain me by subjecting by sending him to CSU. I also found I interviewed someone who I've called us in the book, who was the head of special missions inside the cancer center at CIA. And he ran all the he ran the rendition detention interrogation group. And Jim introduced me to him. And he had never spoken for and has never spoken since and in fact, I think he was prevented from giving evidence during saline versus Mitchell which is the civil suit that was in 2017 brought by two former detainees and the family of its pain and he died. Gus was extremely regulatory and explained how the whole black site network was rolled out, how they persuaded countries to agree to sign up to lend facilities, how they built the facilities. They tried to video everything in case someone died. So they have evidence that that that they haven't deliberately tried to kill someone and how when they got to the end game stage. I what do you do with these people that you've subjected to enhanced interrogation, aka torture. How did you put them for the rest of their lives. And he recounted this very interesting conversation he had with the top people, big boys of CIA so seven boys like to get some good internet. And he said that he came to the meeting before options, which was one was keep them in CIA facility forever. And then sending them to the third commentary forever. Third was to let them go. And the fourth was to prosecute them. And somebody at the meeting piped up and said, Well, what's what about the fifth option. He said I don't have a fifth option. And this person who is we're in Nameless said, Why don't we just kill them. So there were quite a few regulations like that which I found a little bit alarming. I think it was having met an interview so many people connected to the program I think that my overall feeling is that it just became like kind of packed mentality that everybody was in it together. And if anyone ever says who's responsible, should someone be prosecuted. I don't think you can point to any one person because it was just kind of grew into this beast.  And the other thing that I put together in great detail in the book is how, how the CIA enhanced irrigation program absolutely definitely led to abuses in the US military as well. So one of the first things that Jim Mitchell said to me, when he let me in his house, he said I don't want to be involved in a film or a book where I'm connected to Abbey Grape because the CIA program was totally legal. And what they did there was illegal and has nothing to do with what we did. But sadly, if you read the book, you will see that the same people, particularly Bruce Justin, and people from the Joint Personal Recovery Agency and from CS schools were involved in putting together training programs, training materials, training with CIA, training interrogators going to Guantanamo, training interrogators at Bagram and then interrogators who went to Abbey Grape as well. So the whole thing, Jim can rightly say I didn't design what went wrong at Abbey Grape, but he has to accept the responsibility that he created something which got out of control basically. Kenny, I missed the person who was running rendition, what's the name of that person? I can't give his real name, but I've hit the name I've given him in the book is Gus. Okay, got it. So for the audience, like who, who was his average abader and kind of what, what was the, how was he understood at the time he was captured and how is he, how do you understand him now? I think at the time, like I said, at the time he was captured, he really was the wrong person in the wrong place, he was in the wrong place. With, with a son been loving on the run after Torah Bora, Zahra here disappeared, all the big names, apart from number 395, who had been killed, Abbey Grape, who was killed in Afghanistan. There was no real kind of focus of who to go after. And, and many people in CIA have said openly and to me that there was a very limited understanding of al-Qaeda's senior structure at that in those early months. But Abbey Zabeda who had been a logistics guy in Peshawar, Pakistan, and whose job was to pick up someone who wanted to come to Jihad training, check them out. Get them from the airport, bring them to his house of martyrs, which is guest house in Peshawar, check them out again, send them on for the training camps, keep their passports while they're away. I mean, he did that for hundreds, probably thousands of different young men wanting to train for Jihad for all manner of different reasons. So because his name and his telephone number and later his phone, sorry, his photograph was widely known. He was one name that the US government and the CIA had latched on to, but when they captured him six months after 911 he was the first big catch. And, and basically everything was thrown at him.  They need to turn him into a monster. It's now they've bought the monster and this is the man who's going to tell us about the next second wave of attacks. So he became overnight number three in Al Qaeda, he became a financier and a planner of 911. He became the plotter of the so-called Millennium Plot in Jordan and US in December 1999. He supposedly had knowledge of all previous al-Qaeda attacks. He was a senior lieutenant to his arm bin Laden. This was all presented to the Department of Justice, in order to justify enhanced interrogation. He was also allegedly resistance trained, so traditional interrogation wouldn't work. He allegedly wrote the, what's now called the Manchester manual, which is an Al Qaeda training guide, which gave, among other things, lessons in how to have to deal with being tortured.  But gradually, and in fact, even before the legal authorizations were in place, a lot of most almost all of these allegations fell away. And eventually the CIA and the US government quietly dropped their claims against him. And so now he remains in Guantanamo, never charged with anything, because he facilitated training. He didn't train people himself. He looked after their clothes and passports while they went for training. But he did not do any of the things that he was accused of doing at the time of the capture and for the period during which he was tortured. But he's never charged and he will probably never get out because of what was done to him. And what else can I say about him? He's the state of Palestinian, whose family was displaced three times before he was even born. So he grew up in Saudi Arabia as a refugee, not not as in a refugee refugee camp, but someone living in a fairly middle class family, but never would never become a citizen of Saudi Arabia. And that was a rise which led to a lot of arguments with his father who wanted to look forward and try and become assimilate with Saudi society and he was constantly arguing with his father, why aren't you backing Gaza fighting the Israelis and getting an occupied Palestine back. So there was a huge clash within the family. And that was one of the main reasons he left home at the age of 1819 and went travelling and ended up in Pakistan, ended up in a G-hope camp. I'm not quite sure if this is me, because what's going to happen when the G-hope party is over and I've only got one leg, who's going to take me to the bathroom. This is why he rose in his diary age 19. And that kind of come true, but he just got, he got sucked in and he found a place for himself in this world as a facilitator. And he became quite important on which he had seen as the person that you always had to get past the age of 18 to go for training. But in terms of plotting and planning attacks and wanting to attack America, that is never his thing at all.  And what, and the stated policy of the Obama administration, the Biden administration is the closure of Guantanamo and it looks like there's a plea deal discussion with a lot of the 9-11 plotters which would sort of end this military tribunal process. If it was successful. So I mean, is there a game plan for what the future might hold for him? At the moment, I wouldn't say there is an active game plan. Other than what I understand is that he, all of the detainees who remain at Guantanamo, whose situations have not been determined yet, have all had periodic review board hearings in the last year. And quite a lot of people have been recommended for transfer as a consequence of that. I know that he had his periodic review board hearing in July last year. And normally, you get the results in two weeks. And every other time he's had one before, I think he's had three previously. He's been told like within a week. No, you're not going anywhere. You're still an enemy combat combatants. And that being the bar, you have to pass the bar of no longer being an incompetent to be recommended transfer among other issues. And so I think he's very hoping his legal team is very hopeful that because it's now months since that process happens, and they still haven't been given an answer. I think that hopefully at some stage in a not too distant future, you might be recommended for transfer. But that then begins next process, which is, where's he going to go? Because he says he's the state of the Palestinian. This is his birthright. He's never had a nationality anywhere. So, so if the US government was to decide that they'd let him go, he would have to he and his legal team would have to find a place to take him. Which is not impossible. I mean, there are countries like Qatar, that have taken. And obviously, you know, all that this is Taliban guys from Guantanamo. There are possible options that I think it's going to be quite a long drawn out process. But I think the best hope for him is the fact that Mohammed Khatami, who was the military's kind of lab rats to for want of a better phrase. The first person who was subjected to the military version of the house in house interrogation, which was called counter resistance techniques that they did the same thing. When he was asked in widely reported he has been repatriated to Saudi Arabia last month, I think. And so I think there is light at the end of the tunnel, but I think it's the tunnels not quite at the end yet. If you want to submit questions, please use the slide box located to the right of the video. Thank you. So, I mean, obviously, there was a Senate intelligence report which, you know, did a pretty very thorough account of the program. What did you find in, I mean, what they were looking at the entire program. How does your book differ or supplement what was in the Senate intelligence report? I don't think it differs. Because I think Dan Jones and the people who worked with him did an incredible job, although obviously we've only seen the 500 page summary of the 6000 page reports. I think I would hope that this book complements the Senate talk report because we, we, and when I say we, I mean, Alex give me and people that were in the film, Ray Bonner, who's another outstanding American journalist, they submitted a lot of FOIA requests. And so we have access to a huge number of more CIA declassified documents. So just through the time passing, the last five years we've managed to obtain a lot more documents, which I'm sure Dan Jones and his colleagues had access to but that were redacted or that were in the portions of the main report that we haven't been able to see. So there is a lot of, I've quoted a lot from those documents in the book, which just, I mean, it's a very slow process of just pushing the door out and getting a little bit more about certain days or times or moments or movements or renditions. And I think because Jim Mitchell allowed me to speak to many of his friends in the program. That also pushed the door open a little bit further and people speaking quite frankly who had never talked before from the CIA side. And I know with one of Dan Jones's issues. Well, it's time of justice, it's time that one of the issues in the Senate sort of report was the CIA complained that they never had a chance to speak to the investigators. Whether they would have told truth is another issue, but the people who are actually sort of working in the program, not the politicians on the 7th floor. The people working in the program have given me a lot more information about how things happen and who signed things off and what dates certain things happen. Jim always says all the CIA is very funny about dates. And one of the big things I did in the book at the beginning of putting it together was to put together a complete as possible chronology because there are lots of very fuzzy periods that are very legitimate reasons as far as the CIA is concerned, such as when did, when did the CIA start talking about enhanced interrogation. Because the official narrative is that is that they captured Abtabeda. He was a resistance trained. He shot down. He was not going to give up that information about second wave of attacks without being thoroughly roughly handled. And therefore the CIA then developed enhanced interrogation to get him talking to save lives. And that narrative, when you actually put together the proper chronology, forced pieces. And so that is one thing that I've done in the book, which is, you can read between the lines within what you can read in the Senate talk, which we thought summary. But there's a lot more information in the book about kind of what happened exactly when what point did they actually start talking about getting off, taking the gloves off. Practically a week after my mother, basically, there was a lot of revenge involved. Nothing to do with Abtabeda and whether or not he was resisting. So, on how is Abtabeda doing now. Well, you'd have to officially talk to his legal team. But I believe from the correspondence that I have been able to exchange that he is thoroughly frustrated. Furious that this is being going on. It was 20 years. It was the 20th anniversary of his capture at the end of last month. I think he is hopeful. I mean, he wants to get out. He wants to believe that he can have a part of his life at the end of his life as a free man. Unlike some of the people who've been charged 911 who have no prospect of going to be freed like Kalashen Hamid, who I know has been reported. He doesn't want to leave Guantanamo because he doesn't want to end up on the lockdown 23 as a day in ADI Explorer, which is in Sydney. But I believe he is a lot better than Abtabeda, a lot better than he was. He still hasn't got proper medical support. He still suffers from seizures, I believe. He still has waterboarding nightmares. He has very substantial physical injuries to his leg and abdomen. He has a hole in his head, which is not the reference to the CIA at all, but it's exacerbated because he's walled so many times. He has no interest in retribution, no interest in going back to Jihad. He wants to have a quiet, normal life somewhere and write his stories. I mean, he's writing two books at the moment, one of which is called, I think, A Terrorist. He wrote Diary of a Quote's Terrorist Asalga, which is a kind of rerun of all of his diaries, because he wrote diaries before he was captured, and then about a year and a half after his capture he was allowed to restart his diary. It gets taken away now and again, but he's a prolific diarist, if that's the correct word, and I know that he is working on putting together a book version of his diaries. He also has drawn a huge number of drawings, some are artistic drawings, some are torture drawings, but he wants to bring out a book of his torture drawings of which there are 43 drawings, and I think that is hopefully quite imminent. I've seen the pictures, and they are truly shocking, and also show, if we believe him, choose to believe him, that the CIA, and I'm not blaming Jim Mitchell or Bruce Jessen specifically, but CIA interrogators went way beyond what was legally approved, and he has depicted some of the way beyond stuff in the drawings which hopefully will come out as a book in a not too distant future.  That's much information. There are 240 pages in the film, you have two hours, so how do you, how did you manage that? Well, I was obviously not in charge of the film because the director's Alex Gibney, and Alex was very, very fascinated as I am in the process of what is good interrogation. So, that's the best way to get information from a terrorist, a murderer, a suspect, whatever, what is the right way of doing things. And so, the film focused very much on the first six months of Abbas Bay's capture, and focus very much on the huge tossing that developed very quickly between the CIA and the FBI, particularly in the form of Alice Dufan and James Mitchell going hammer and tongs in Thailand and who was in charge and who was going to get hands on with the detainee. And so the film sort of finishes really when the waterboarding, the enhanced interrogation of Abbas Bay finished in August 22, 2002. And Alex did a brilliant job of putting together in great detail kind of that very intense six months of a fear about the next wave of attacks, the arguments about how to interrogate this guy, see arguments about who the hell is he, is he dangerous, it doesn't know what's coming next, can he tell Washington what they want to know what they need to know. Can we, can we get it passed the law? I mean that's that's very much the focus, the intense focus of the film is that those months, immediately after his capture. Whereas with the book obviously I've got a lot more space, and, and can drive people into tedious, long distractions of detail with copious CIA documents quoted. I've followed Abbas Bay and other detainees who were subjected to the same enhanced interrogation technique, all the way up to the present day. He is the main focus of the book, but you start with this one person, and then his treatment where he almost dies becomes template for all high value detainees. And then he gets rolled out on ramping in our ship, and kind of sharing hammers, etc, etc, etc. So, so yes I go well beyond the first year and write up into the present day. And I mean both both exercises were really interesting, it was great working with Alex. I think we put together a really good film. It's also really nice to come away from that very collaborative, huge team process to be back on my own and writing what I wanted without someone saying you can't do that. And you've written a number of your books with Adrian Levy. How do you, and your partners, so how do you, how does that work. It's changed over the years. When we first started out, 30 years ago, 25 years ago, we used to put together a vague structure of a book, and then split it in half, which sounds crazy now. And we would, before we had kids, we used to do all the research together and travel around together, which was great. And then we go right well I'm going to do the six chapters, and usually the second six chapters, and then we kind of not talk for six months. And then we swap over and have huge arguments about, about who is written more rubbish and who has got stuff on the right track. And, but now it's evolved into a slightly different working arrangement whereby we've really Adrian's been working on a different book about Pakistan and Indian intelligence services. And he's, he helped me a lot with this book, but we kind of were running parallel projects. And then we swap over our manuscripts and have another huge fight. Well, it's been a very fruitful partnership because the exile is amazing book and so is the siege, the two books I've read of course the most recent ones. So we have some questions coming in one is, you mentioned Abou Zaveda's father did you make contact with the family while you're writing the book and I think the answer is yes. I did. The family. The family are in a really tricky position. I mean when I first started and I made contact with Abou Zaveda indirectly he said the last thing I want you to do is contact my family and if you do contact my family I want to speak to you, because I don't want them to be involved in this. I mean they still, and they wouldn't really want me to be talking about this actually, but they still live in Riyadh. They're still refugees. They still live on green card like a green card equivalent, which they have to renew every year, which could be withdrawn at any moment for any reason, even though his father and father has been living and working in between them for 50 years. He will never be a citizen. So I spoke, I spoke mostly to his eldest brother Mahir, who actually cropped up in some of his early diaries because Mahir was in Pakistan at the time that Abou Zaveda was first deciding to join Jihad as a cadet and go for training himself and Mahir who was trained in Faisalabad, trained to be a doctor, was sent to Peshawar and then into Afghanistan to try and get his wayward younger brother out and failed, but he has helped a little bit, but I wouldn't want to suggest the family has been actively involved in the book at all because his brother Hisham, who lives in the States, has helped me a lot because he's not in the same situation in Saudi Arabia, although he is also in a difficult situation because he's the third brother. He's also in a difficult situation because he is still a Palestinian refugee as well. So he doesn't have a green card and he's been a citizen, he's lived in the States for 20 years and is not a citizen and is still on deportation order thanks to his brother being picked up by the CIA. But again, no one can find anywhere to send him, but Hisham was very helpful to me. Another question, which is so it's a question around the, you know, since the United States is withdrawn from Afghanistan. You know, does that change the sort of legal framework under which is obviously, you know, hostilities in Afghanistan are over and part of the theory of the case of Quantana would be that people would be held there while until hostilities ended so I mean, there hasn't been a drone strike in Pakistan as you know for many, many years now. There are no American troops in Afghanistan. So, has that affected any of this. You're better talking to the legal teams for the guys who've been charging 911 about the detail because I know there have been some challenges from them to the Biden administration to say, look, war on terror is now over. In speeches, war on terror is over, you've withdrawn from Afghanistan. So, if the war on terror is over, these enemy competence that you're keeping in Guantanamo. If they can't provably be shown to be continuing to pose a risk to the United States that there is no legal justification for holding them. I don't believe that those arguments have succeeded as of yet, but that's definitely something that have a space team will be working on. But I mean, he doesn't even have a case. He's militarily Militia Council assistant me. He's not like television, he has a case and you can fight a case but if you don't have a case and you haven't even been able to have habeas rights and we know from the Supreme Court hearing and discussion recently that there's still, he's a very long way from any kind of legal justice or legal discussion because he's he's in limbo. And I guess that the fact that the war on terror is over and Afghanistan has been left behind by almost all American food. It's something that they will, that his legal team will use, but it's not going to get him out. That's a heated question from the audience what would you have President Biden do with respect to the remaining detainees a gitmo and to redress the wrongs that have been committed. Huge question. I think it's, I think people who have been charged and are in the middle of negotiations, those those negotiations need to come to some kind of conclusion and result that's agreeable to everyone. I believe that the deal that's on the table at the government side is so unreasonable that it's not even really being properly considered. But that should come from the 919s. I believe people who've been approved transfer of which I think there are 18 detainees who've been approved for transfer some of them years back. Some of them will be transferred elsewhere to another country. I imagine their teams are working on finding the right places to send them and I know there are certain kind of like anyone who's from Yemen can't get back to Yemen because there's a no deal arrangement that you can't get back to Yemen. But there are other options like Qatar and Saudi Arabia with the Sea Radicalization Programme. I don't know how good that is. So that, so there's 18, I think 18 who've been approved for transfer. There are five people who are negotiating at the moment. There's people like her magic pond has done a deal, which needs to come to the fruition. And naturally, I think it's on his trial is almost concluded. But the forever prisoners, the seven, I think, remaining detainees who don't have a face like Abbas baby. How to deal with it. I mean, I think they need to, they need to either be charged, or they need to be approved for transfer, and someone needs to find places to go and live out their lives. Not being a lawyer, that's the best I can offer. I think, I think, I think, while sorry, while Granthana is still open, it's just, it's just a constant reminder. It's just like a constant saw that of what was done that was wrong and like last week, I think there are some of these accusations flying out to the states about war crimes in Ukraine and obviously Peter, President Putin, all of his supporters and poetry around and you can just say, well, who are you to tell us about war crimes. Look what you've done yourself and here's the living proof because there are also some of them are still sitting there down in Granthana Bay. So I think it's, it's a problem for the US government that has to, it has to close. So, Jim Mitchell, you said you spend a lot of time with him. He's very prominent in the film of the book as well as the book itself. I mean, how was it was his reaction to the book in the film. He's very angry with me. So he, when we did spend lots of time together, not just me and him, me, him and his wife. I visited him, I visited them at their home multiple times. And when, when he did watch the film and he got very angry, he said, I thought you were friends, Kathy. And I said, well, yes, I am a professional friend. I'm not a social friend. I don't just come to Florida to go to the canoeing and looking at alligators and there was, there's always been a reason for this friendship, which is that I have always made it clear that I was writing a book and making a film. And he now thinks that I have betrayed him. He thinks that I lied my way into his house, and then I used my access to him to get to his friends. And he thinks I've been very disingenuous, and I had a plan all along to turn him over. I was a journalist, which actually is not true, because I went into this story with a very open mind. And I tried not to have any come with any preconceptions about either Abbas Abedah or Dan Mitchell. I was very curious and interested to know about both of them and what it was like for both of them. So the first thought about the book and the film is kind of what would it have been like to have been in the interrogation cell in the torture room, whatever you call it. For those two particular individuals, although there are many, many other people in there, doctors, nurses, whatever, subject matter experts, but those two people are the people that locked eyes and spent a huge amount of time together over several months. And in fact, Mitchell went back and said I've debated many, many times, even after the CIA had handed the claims over to the Department of Defense. And so I wanted to approach them both as human beings. But Jim now thinks that I have basically turned him over and betrayed him. And he has the right to think like that, but I honestly did not have a preconceived notion about what I felt about him. I found it very difficult to watch him in giving his testimony at Guantanamo in January 2020, because I mean very well by then. And so he went down two weeks with Bruce Jessen to give testimony in the 9-11 pre-trial hearings.  Like for the first time in what, 15 years possibly? And he went, no, I don't know, it's fine, water up the ducts back. But to actually be sitting in the war port and seeing this interaction between him and them, back in the same room, A was really interesting. But B, it was really disturbing, because I'm afraid he just told so many lies. And he addressed them in a kind of way that you could just see was the kind of constant life. Just remember, we can come back, you're not out, you're still here, and it's never really over. And he was very rude, he was very racist, which, okay, I mean, kind of shaped how I just self-concessed, confessed, mastermind 9-11 and 3,000 people died, which was absolutely awful in shopping and not excusing that whatsoever. But I found it very difficult to reconcile the Jim Mitchell on the stand in Guantanamo with the Jim Mitchell at home in Florida. And that, for me, was a turning point. So that was two years ago. I mean, we were already tweaking the situation film and the book at that stage, but yes, it did kind of cloud my mind a little bit about him. And I told him, I told him that when we spoke again, I said, I was really shocked to see what you said on the stand and how you behave. One of the themes that I think of your book and also the Senate Intelligence Committee report and tell me if I'm wrong is that a kind of conventional wisdom is the Bush White House sort of forced this on the CIA and that's really, you know, John Rousseau and the Mamos and blah blah blah, but it seems that the reverse may have been true. Is that correct? It was totally coming from CIA, totally coming from CIA. John Rousseau, I know you have had quite a low opinion of him, but he, and he didn't know he was going to die last year, but he, I think he got to a point where he wanted, he felt he wanted just to come clean. And he was extremely, he was good in the film, but I interviewed him five or six times before the film, and he really did kind of just let it all out and was very, I think, 70% honest about what had happened. The whole impetus for the whole enhanced interrogation program and the way to handle high value, important, interesting detainees, not the Mickey Mouse detainees, as they were described in Guantanamo, but the sort of the bigness was something that the CIA wanted right from the beginning. We want to do this within days of 9-11. We're ready to leave this fight. It's not a military fight, it's a CIA intelligence-led gathering of inspiration, and once we catch these bad guys, we want the right to interrogate them in the way that we need to interrogate them. And I think I believe there was a whole narrative, there is a whole narrative constructed by the CIA retrospectively and at the time to lead the administration down the path that the CIA wanted to go. It all starts in Langley. It all starts with the CIA. I mean, if you look at, I was reading, it's the book of the weekend, but if you look at what the CIA presented to the Department of Justice in order to get this over the legal line to get permission to submit Abbas Bader to Enhanced Terrigation.  And there are so many lies in what the CIA presented to the Department of Justice and to the National Security Council and the National Security Advisor, to the President, to any general, from the litany of sort of the fake CV, to a sort of fanciful psychological profile of Abbas Bader, which basically said he's the toughest guy on earth, and he can withstand anything. And if we don't get him talking, thousands of people are going to die, and the blood's going to be on your hands. And, I mean, there was, there's a really interesting Inspector General report, no, Officer Public Responsibility Report from the Department of Justice, which quotes John Belliger saying things like, in reflection, saying things like we felt completely boxed in, and there was huge pressure coming from the CIA to make this legal.  No US military personnel suffered long-term psychological damage from going through the CIA program, which is totally untrue. And there was the resident expert on CIA and cortisol and stress levels, the guy who was Charles Morgan, Professor, sorry, Charles Morgan, he was not consulted, he published widely at this stage, saying that the CIA program is dangerous, people died in the CIA program, students in the training exercise. And that was completely covered up in what was submitted to John New and the Justice Department. The complete reverse was reported. I mean, the Martin Seligman, the professor, and the owner of the famous Learned Helpfulness Theory. I mean, he was, he was led down a ridiculous path by CIA by Jim and Bruce and other people. He was led to say, Learned Helpfulness, as in the dog experiments, ceases and a dog stroke person can go back to being normal once the conditions are removed. And this is not what Martin Seligman discovered at all. And they were not, the CIA wasn't honest with him either. He thought that the CIA wanted his expertise in case American service personnel, in case American service personnel were captured by Al Qaeda, when in fact there was already a stand to subject Al Qaeda detainees to Learned Helpfulness type of experiment. And they persuaded him to say something that wasn't true. And also, for example, the way it presented as a medically led program. So the CIA doctors and medical research all backs that this is the right way to go. This is what the Department of Justice is told. Whereas the Office of Medical Service at the CIA and chief psychologist at the CIA and Professor Charles Morgan, who was the leading expert on CIA. None of those people consulted. So it all started at Langley. Another question which relates to so it. Let me ask you a question then I added a little something to it which is so in the in the Alex Gibney film, I was abated as time at the CIA black site in Thailand, sort of the focus that his time in Eastern Europe was not in it was there a reason behind this and maybe just more generally, you know, what's the role of these countries like Thailand and Poland and Romania. I went to Thailand I think right to to look into some. Yes, yes, I mean I used to live in Thailand in fact I was actually in Chiang Mai when I was abated brought Chiang Mai. Because I didn't know the time I was living there. But yeah I went to Thailand. Well the role of the countries is that Gus, who was the man who had to go and find the country is not not Thailand that was pointed. The first role was to find countries that could be co-opted into lending some kind of innocuous building that could be used as a prison that didn't look like a prison, whether it's a riding stable in Lithuania, or a villa in Poland or a house in in the Chiang Mai. But I mean one of one of the key aspects of persuading countries was well a huge amount of money, $20 million in most cases, plus. To be, they, there's the I focused in on countries that wanted to get into NATO or NATO, and non member states that kind of thing, big political rubber stamps, and, and Thailand was rewarded with non member NATO ally status, if that's the right phrase, as a result of helping with that site. But I mean that that story was fascinating because I went to interview. I went to try and find out where the black side was three years ago. And I met the former chief special branch for a different reason. And I was actually talking to him about Zubair and Hanbali. And I said, oh, what about Abyssinia? Did you ever know where that black site was? And he had never talked to anybody. And he's very, very westernized, very entertaining, interesting guy, very clever guy. But no one had ever really asked him this question before. And he just kind of like, and he went, yes, basically my holiday home in Chiang Mai. And I said, Oh, tell me more. And, and so he gave me chapter and verse on kind of lending his slightly run down to the chicken coop style holiday home in the jungles outside Chiang Mai to the CIA. But yes, I mean to answer the bigger question, the work countries were identified that had sort of white pressure points that could be applied to them. So, techniques from the CIA, there's another question filtered from the CIA to Guantanamo in the military. Did you find any evidence they went to US local partner forces? Sorry, I don't understand the question. Well, so you mentioned that some of the CIA techniques migrated in the military. Evidence that they migrated to US partner forces. I did not investigate that. Personally, I mean, I looked very deeply into how enhanced to get EITs migrated out of the CIA and down to Guantanamo and to background and to be great. I mean, all I'd say is, is the rogue regimes like Duterte in the Philippines and lots of Modi is not a rogue regime but in India. Many, many dictatorial type regimes now, or after the enhanced interrogation program and at the grave scandals were exposed, I think felt unleashed and taxing the Prime Minister of Thailand. Actually, I cannot answer that question, but more specifically, taxing launched a war on drugs after the CIA was hosted. And I do know from the head of Thai special branch that and this war on drugs you probably remember it was 2004-2005 was really brutal. And it's about 2500 drug dealers were were murdered in the streets and then you would picture the newspapers every day of somebody being shot off their motorbike, whether they were guilty or not. It was a full runner to what happened in the Philippines under Duterte. But I do know from the head of Thai special branch that US military trainers at his request, who had worked in enhanced interrogation or interrogation style techniques within war on terror were dispatched to help tie the royal Thai police. So, yes, in that particular case, I can say that the war is the link and the war is the training of the past one. The book is The Forever Prisoner, the full and searing account of the CIA's most controversial covert programs. Kathy Scott Clark is the lead author with Adrian Levy. It's on sale tomorrow in the United States. And Kathy, we want to thank you very much for writing the book, for doing the film, and for speaking with us today. Bye.


The challenge of the Yukon. On King Onyohusky! The Wonder Dog King, swiftest and strongest Ascimal lead dogs, blazes the trail through storm and snow, for Sergeant Preston, as he meets the challenge of the Yukon. Sergeant Preston was typical of the small band of Northwest mounted police, who preserved law and order in the new Northwest country, where the greed for wealth and power led to frequent violence and bloodshed. But in spite of the odds against them, Sergeant Preston and his Wonder Dog King met that challenge, and justice ruled triumphant. As Sergeant Preston approached the trading post in the town of Selkirk, while he'd come with him from the north, looked at him sadly, as if dreading the words he knew were coming. On King Onyohusky! Well, White Eagle, I guess this is where you leave me. Do you want to come into the trading post and get warm? No. Let me go back to village. Well, don't look so unhappy about it. I'll use you again as a guide, next time I get up this way. You come back soon? Not very soon, but when I do, I'll let you know. You're one of the best guides in the north. Oh, me go now. You come back soon. All right. Come on, King. Come inside. Hello, Sergeant. I see you drive up front of my place. It is long time I don't see you. Hello, Francois. You sit down by stove and warm yourself. Thanks. You have come on a long trip. Been gone about two weeks. Oh, this fire feels good. Here is good RT to warm you inside. Thanks, Francois. Oh, don't bother with anything else. I've had my supper, thanks. I'll take White Eagle with you again as guide. Yes, always take him. I'm up this way. Why you do this? You know this country much better than White Eagle. Well, don't ever tell White Eagle that. Being my guide means everything to him. You see, he's well... you might call him a special project of mine. What is this project? You might call it a job. White Eagle is great in the eyes of his people when I use him as a guide. And as long as they look up to him, he's a good Indian. White Eagle has a great deal of pride and ambition. If he isn't noticed and respected, he gets into trouble. He has been in trouble. Haven't you ever heard the story about White Eagle? Well, no. Me, I have not been here a very long time. No one has told me this. King saved White Eagle from being hanged. Such a bluff. Now, how he do this? It was about a year before you moved into this territory, Francois. White Eagle lived in an Indian village near Moose Creek. You know what that is? We... Old Sam Moore, a prospector, staked a claim near there. Right beside his claim down the creek, there were two men who had staked a claim together. Their names were Pete Donahue and Richie Stevens. Pete and Richie were in their cabin one evening when Old Sam came first. What's that sound? Hey, calm yourself. Look, take a look at that rock. Hey, that does look like something. Where did you find it, Sam? It's right on my claim. There's a big gold vein. Leads right down to the creek. The vein leading to the creek? Yeah. I can't wait to find out how much it's all going to be worth. I'm going to go into town early tomorrow morning. Don't you want to stand out some supper with us, Sam? No, I'm going up to Cy Cranes and tell him about it. Well, you better not spread the news too fast. Maybe the vein is small. No, I'm sure it ain't. Well, I'll see you tomorrow, boys. I'll drop in and tell you what to say if I enjoy the rock. Well, congratulations, Sam. Goodbye. I imagine that lucky old stiff hitting the jackpot like that. Yeah. And less than a quarter of a mile away from our claim. As, uh, as old Sam and his relatives. You never heard him talking about any. Why? Nothing. He's a pretty old man. If he died, I just wonder if anyone would be around to take the claim over. We'd be around. We'd take over a mighty quick, too. That must be White Eagle coming over from the Indian village. I saw him today. He said he had some furs, boys. Hello, White Eagle. Come in. Well, we bring good furs. Oh, what kind, White Eagle? Varks, links. Plenty good. Well, I'd see him. Yeah, yeah, they're not so bad. You want some firewater for him? This time, he wants shoes, like white man. Shoes. Why, do you want shoes? Aren't your moccasins good enough? Me get coat, maybe. Like that one. Hey, what's the idea? Black Hawk. Him come home from White Man's country.  Yeah. Yeah, I guess they had to buy him some civilized clothes to appear at the trial. And beginning to see things clearly, you know, White Eagle likes to have the tried look up to him. I suppose Black Hawk is getting all the glory now. What happened to the Indians who went there with the police, White Eagle? Them, Ajak and Big Wolf. Yeah, yeah, they're the ones who knife Bill. What did Black Hawk say happened to them? Black Hawk say them live in Big Stone House of White Man. Them get plenty eat and clothes like White Man. They're in a Big Stone House, all right. And they'll probably stay there a long time. Black Hawk is right, White Eagle. Big Wolf and Ajak won't have to worry anymore. They'll be nice and warm all the way while you're freezing to death in their tenures. Every day a man will bring them fine things to eat.  Hey, Richie, what's the idea? Quiet, Pete. How would you like a life like that, White Eagle? Then Black Hawk not life? No, he didn't lie. They lived there a long time? Yeah. And they'll never have to worry about eating or a warm place to sleep. White Eagle like to live there, maybe. Oh, no, you wouldn't, White Eagle. Yes, you would like it, White Eagle. Now, you're a good friend of ours. I'll tell you how you can get there. Oh, not right away, but soon, maybe. What do I do? Well, I'll have to plan things with Pete here. You come back in a day or so and we'll have it all arranged. Oh, that's good. We haven't any shoes to trade this time. Shoes are hard to get up here. You take a little fire water this time. Go get it, Pete. Sure, thank you. Now, remember, White Eagle, don't tell anyone where you'll get this fire water. And if you do, I won't help you to go to the White Man's country. Need not tell. Here's the Lincoln. There you are, White Eagle. Now, you come back in two days and we'll fix everything for you. You come back. See, Richie, what were you talking about? Pete, I've got an idea. It may be the chance of a lifetime to get rich. Now, Black Hawk is telling the story of how well the two criminals are being treated. He seems to think being in jail is swell. Compared to the way some of the Indians live, maybe it is. Anyway, if we can persuade White Eagle that if he kills somebody, he'll be able to live in the big stone house, too. Well, you see what I mean? But how is that going to put your head? You mean... You mean Sam? Yeah. Why not? But him out of the way, we can get that gold claim of his easy. And White Eagle could live in the big stone house. Yeah, I see what you mean. It was about a week after that when I met Richie in Selkirk. He made a special point of seeing me. I was coming into town with my dog team when he stopped me. Hey, Sergeant Preston, where are you? I want to see you. Okay. Hello, Richie. Glad you got to town, Sergeant. Huh? Sam Moore has thrown a little party tomorrow night to celebrate the big strike you made. It's sure like to have you with us. I'd be glad to come at your cabin. No, no, it's at Sam's. But he said to invite anyone we like. And there won't be many there. The cabin is too small. Well, thanks, Richie. I'll see you at Sam's tomorrow night. All right. Uncanny! I'll see you at Sam's tomorrow night. What a large... There were about, oh, eight men there. I was quite surprised to see White Eagle among them. I didn't know that he was a particular friend of Sam, but Sam had lived in the Yukon for a long time, and I thought they knew each other well. Sam had had quite a bit to drink. And toward the middle of the evening, decided to make a speech. Sit up in the middle of the cabin, and we cleared a place for him. Well, I just... Well, look, look, everybody. Sam wants to make a little speech. He's going to tell us what he's planning to do with all his money. Come on, Sam, tell us about it. You want to get married, Sam? Well, whatever you do, don't leave... Well, boys, that's your big order. Telling you what I'm going to do when I'm rich... I've been poor for so many years... I was standing at the side of the room with King beside me while Sam gave his speech. Everyone was watching Sam, but my attention was attracted suddenly by White Eagle, who was standing behind him. The Indian had drawn his knife and started toward Sam suddenly. I shouted to King... Get him, King! Help! Stop, dog! Take him away!  What's up, Chuck? Black King, let him up. All right, pull it back. Get up, White Eagle. I'll take that knife. Why did you... Nothing things to do. We ought to take him out and strangle him out. Not so fast, boys. I'll take care of White Eagle, and there won't be any lynching. No more of that talk, Richie. Come on, White Eagle, I'm handcuffing him. We're going into town right now. Imagine that poor Indian trying to knife Sam right in front of the bounty. Never heard of anything like that. White Eagle didn't speak at all on the way back to town. I took him to the local jail and put him in a cell. The jail was empty. It was then that White Eagle asked the question that partled me. Now you send White Eagle to Big Stone House of Whiteman? Big Stone House? What are you talking about? A place where Black Hawk go. Ajax and Big Wolf there. You mean the prison in Ottawa? Maybe you'll not take me. Dogs stop me from killing Sam. You mean you were trying to get me to send you to prison? Me kill man. Me go live in Warm Stone House. Get clothes like White Man. Who told you this? White Eagle not tell. Do you know what really would have happened to you White Eagle if you'd killed Sam? You would have been killed. That's White Man's law. Why them want me be killed? Them friends? They weren't your friends. They wanted to get rid of you and Sam too. The Indians in your tribe have been getting liquor, fire water from someone. Is the man who gave you the fire water tell you this? Me not tell. You're in bad trouble White Eagle. For what you did tonight, maybe you'll stay in this cold jail for many days. The people in your tribe will laugh at you. Now if you'll help me catch these men who told you to do this, I'll let you be my guide on my trips around Selkirk.  You'll give me White Man's shoes? White Man's shoes and a hat for summer. Me tell. Good. Now tell me what happened from the beginning. White Eagle told me everything then. The following day he went with me to the cabin of Richie and Pete.  Oh, King! Oh, your husband! What's White Eagle doing out of jail? I think you and Pete know that, Richie. I've made White Eagle a special constable to help me arrest you. You can't arrest us! White Eagle told me the plan you made with him, with the one who invited him to Sam's party and you and Pete have been selling him liquor. I have that dirty squeamant. I don't think you will, Pete. All right, White Eagle, handcuff them the way I taught you. Me help police now. Don't you come here! Hold out your hands, Richie. My dog will help White Eagle if necessary. Francois? That's the story of White Eagle. Now, every time I make a patrol in this district, White Eagle acts as my guide and special constable. Sack of blood. I guess Indians, they know now to commit crime does not mean they live in comfort. Well, White Eagle helped me straighten that out. And Sam dropped the charges against White Eagle. I explained what happened. That's why we've never had any trouble with White Eagle or any of his people. So, once more, your dog, he saved somebody's life. Well, that's all in the day's work for King, isn't it, fella? These copyrighted dramas originate in the studios of WXYZ Detroit and all characters, names, places and incidents used are fictitious. They are sent to you each week at the same time. Fred Boy speaking, this is the Michigan Radio Network.


TLO what's poppin? We are on twitch. We are live you can come join us if you want if not that's cool Just leave a like comment subscribe turn your post notification bells man Let's continue to grow the family from Chicago to the UK. I just woke up. I'm talking two minutes ago But I'm dropping right into documentary Monday is gangland turf war London 2006. This is part two Started this last documentary Monday I Did it in two parts. I said I was gonna do the final part in one take so let's just get into Violence that surrounds it is gripping the streets of London People caught up in it are the collateral damage in this dangerous world I The gang's voices are always strong up because that's what washes your brain up During the course of filming Contributors to this series have been sent to jail for knife possession shot and stabbed to death This isn't a normal life for a teenager. I'm pretty about my grandkids. So like I don't want to go in the area So this is some criminating In the same period 90 teenagers were stabbed in the capital 17 of them lost their lives as a result 16 and I've seen six people Get stabbed and killed and the resulting death and loss is destroying families.  This way of gang culture is having a dangerous and devastating effect on the young and impressionable All it takes is that one wrong move To be dragged in the whole new world that you don't want to be And with more and more vulnerable young people falling into the web of this violent culture Where is the system you got to stop this game Growing up in Britain has never been more dangerous Of course you watched it in oh 16. I wasn't even Where was I in 2016 I was nothing it's not around here On September 3rd 2015 Shaquon Farron was tragically stabbed to death in broccoli, South London six weeks before his 18th birthday That'd be the tragic part man. It's not even making it to see legal adulthood nowadays This is 2016 so see the crazier man Shaquon was not in a gang and had a bright future ahead of him But the all-pervasive gang culture that has young people carrying and using knives Made him yet another young victim of the lifestyle At the funeral is like I was literally speaking to him and he was speaking to me One they will all meet you with laughter with joy when it was going on you saying to me mom This is it man. I don't even go to funeral bro. This should be so tragic. That's that's one of the saddest things to see right here No cap. This is one of the saddest things to see Let go I'm going Saying to me mom let go. It's like he was saying let it go. I'm gone. There's heart breaking Chopin rest in peace Jesus name we pray Amen Such a good child from you to last a good child It's really hard Really really hard This part of Southeast London is particularly afflicted by young street gangs with 16 of them said to be active across the borough of Lewisham Shaquon was on his way to this youth club when he was killed Who the fool? Like so he was doing some real like he was going deep just under the youth club at the school program Seeing someone like you always see like and you don't see no more. It's just a weird Shaquon's old school friend Cairo was with him minutes before he was killed His decision to head to a music studio instead of the local youth club with Shaquon still troubles him Yeah, right there is where Died in it like this where they had a little fight and rule on It's where you got stab Stuff for no reason Shaquon's mother Sharon works just a few hundred meters away She rushed over to his side as he lay dying. It was so bad Wasn't a nice thing to stop but he wasn't going to the youth club. Okay. He was going to the music Oh, no, he was going to the youth club and his boy was going to the music studio I'm on the floor. It's so much blood When I seen his eyes going over That's when I start to scream I know my son here when I cried out That cry will never go in vain So his mom seen is accused of murdering Shaquon who were 15 and 16 years old at the time We're known locally for carrying knives Even Cairo had a run-in with them. I had my own little problems with them, isn't it? Had my own little madness as I've had with them Would it mean different if like I never Went to the studio that day if I came up here, it probably wouldn't have happened, didn't it? Because although she told the youths that I can't run in it Oh, I don't know. It could have been me getting stabbed. I don't know man In 2000 it's terrible because you're gonna always think like that, especially if that's your homie Like and you was with him right before and then like separate ways y'all went and then You don't think like that for the rest of your life, huh? 15 there were 81 incidents of knife crime involving young people in the bar of luisham alone He's a rapper. He's having a very real and increasingly dangerous effect on the community Well, I'm 16 and I've seen Six people Get stabbed and killed I don't know how to feel sometimes like it's too normal I've lived it for my whole life. It's it's all I've seen since I've grown up You know just being living a normal life for a teenager, but then again This is normal life of a teenager To gain further insight into this culture and its harsh realities A current london gang member shared with us why he believes in the need to carry a knife I love my life Slap that because if I'm not So that love my life often to get married to it engaged Backing up on that thing I could get money for it They have them out from them. I get full top I've seen death coming to would be and I'm pretty smart about it.  Like y'all see any new buttons around y'all screen y'all see a new subscribe button y'all see anything new that y'all can press It's a shock Like a rule So this is my temple. This is where I come and pray It just surprised me myself to know that My son is gone And I'm standing here Think my son is coming back This is part two. I've seen part one. So I'm only eight minutes into this So you know what I'm saying? Every time you walk into there, you're gonna feel that It just happened just like that I'll say you do see new stuff on there. Okay Knife crime is becoming normalized and a gateway for young people to enter into gangs Ruining lives across the capital with teenagers. Yeah, I'm gonna start having um, so I just figured some uh, man I'm okay do that. I'll tell y'all a minute responsible for an estimated 130,000 knife attacks in london over the past five years These street gangs are spreading fear in their communities When you see the parents crying for their son because the son's dead He said don't think about if I dad look at my mama. We make my mom cry like this It's like Because I've been in some of these situations where I've nearly got stabbed and that my mom's you see Like she's scared because it keeps them getting to a point as she said the next time it happens She just knows I'm gonna get stabbed and something's going to happen Cairo lives with his mother shireen and at 16 years old has seen six of his friends stabbed and killed I've always thought about my normal life over 16 year old but I've never seen it because Most of all of my friends live the same life as me. This is normal for us. I've grown up Knowing like my life is to deal with what I have to deal with Life's getting girl trying to convince me Me ain't free Okay, I hear the tion wang flow tion wang touched the generation and now they all wanted to be I see it. Cairo knows a further nine people who have survived stabbings Gang culture and the resulting knife crime has him and his friends fearing for their lives He makes up now. I do have a question that do y'all see a sub button Do y'all see on y'all side do y'all see a subscribe button? Person not want to be outside no more don't want to do stuff anymore like Places I go For being my house or being my girl's house, you know, you just have those little places where You go to keep yourself out of certain places So there's more but less a chance of you getting stabbed or killed Is even like on your way go into studio. You could have someone capping on your way go into my girl's house. There's something happening There's areas where they can't go. What do you mean you can't go there? Nah, not going there. It's all right They don't want to go there. Maybe there's people there that don't Like them because of the area they come from so there's certain areas. No, he won't go to Shireen is aware of how difficult it is for her son crazy But struggles to come to terms with just how commonplace of violent death has become for his generation I figured out how much people do we know that's died. Yeah, there was those neef There's neef in this shack. There's Muhammad and Jamal that died. I'm trying to remember there's a couple more people that I know See that's the sad part when you get so many people, you know around you that died you can't even remember them all That's time. That's way too much. No, not in my lifetime I've been of that age and people just dropping dead around me.  Everybody wants to always Do the coward thing. I don't know but it's because you know that someone else is gonna have it Like you have the what's it say when you click it? You can say yes or no, too It's like you have to be about that life like don't go through with it. Let me when is it saying just tell me you're just gonna get bullied mom But shireen is also aware that given the increasing danger on the streets Young people are taking drastic measures to protect themselves I'm not naive to what's going on out there. I know what these boys do. I just I know I'm a person. No, I check my knife for my draw like some people don't you ask them? They don't know I'm how many knives or what's going missing? I know what's missing? I'm going to draw see something missing. I'm cool even a weather knife Shireen is trying desperately to keep fire away from gangs and knives I don't know. I just act like I'm the detective in my house. I always just go around Looking searching to me if I wanted if I feel like Something don't do that one before I will go in your room. I will turn it upside down and look for everyone What I need to look for I know every hole every corner in my as a parent man Like you want to get your kid privacy?  I gotta go check it out I got to Because I know where we live. I know what's been happening. I gotta check it out But see I'm a different type of thing like you feel me like like I feel like See if you you got to protect yourself out here. Hey, I want you to come home. I really Hey as a parent. Hey, listen, I'm sorry. You feel I don't condone it but I really You come home. You make it home.  We think it might hide it. I know it Mother's like Shereen are rare in understanding how street life gangs and violence work But she is desperate. It does not impact on her son All it takes is that one wrong decision That one wrong move that that's all it takes for you to be dragged in the whole new world that you don't want You don't want to be involved in you never thought you'd be involved in Nowadays kids are getting involved because they're becoming someone's younger Like I could see someone out there and say Uh, I'm gonna like you can become become my younger and do this one around for me And that's how people are getting involved So that way if a man can't get me you see he's my younger.  We can't get you. I gotta get what's closest to you. I'm not condoning the youtube. I'm just saying that's what that's what Three months after Shaquann's violent death Sharon finally faced the teenagers accused of murdering her son It's a hard thing to do. You see you see ball for them. Yeah How did they look? I'm come out like Really cocky.  You could see that should have run me the wrong way I had to go man listen. You could see turn them. They are trouble maker. I really feel like I didn't want to Just look in their face and ask them why What far why when I look at them to see these two boys Yeah, two child when I look at them properly as a mom I feel so bad to know that two child charged for murder. I'm just coming out like it's a fun like it's a joke I feel so good What was their plea though not guilty all for them. Yeah Do you know what though that we worked out better because they'll both get murdered and attempted murder them If one of them said guilty I wanted to not guilty then the charge was to come both But now they've both gone guilty not guilty. They handed themselves in They will pay for it. They have to go down Well, don't get too bent on that man. The judicial system is all It's all friends and Most lawyers friends with this judge and the lawyers friends with this home Prior to shakwan's death Well having already known multiple friends murdered and afraid of being targeted by gangs himself Kyra made a fateful choice To no longer live like a victim in his own neighborhood I got cool with uh As they a knife, but as they say your article Sharp point article blade. They never quit on me. They quit like Down the road, but I knew it was mine and they had my fingerprints on it. So there was no I am Then I got cool again Rather be rather it on me did not god damn it You know, I'm slayer with the same thing at the age of 14 Kyra was given a 12 month supervision order for Kerry. They got stopping first there, right? So if they even suspect you of doing anything they could just stop you and not even care. They just gone Frisk you Bring a knife Well, that's a question. I'm not sure is that is that what it is out there at that moment in my life, I was Getting threatened and all of those things there.  Someone could try to kill me Kyra was Is a means of protection by the older boys in the community who were on the fringes of gang life The way they It seemed like it was the right thing to do. They never ever said to us like, you know, we shouldn't do this This is not good. You'll go get arrested. Go jail. They never told us that Made it seem like this life was decree and everything was going great for them With the added fear and pressure of older voices Some vulnerable young people are all too easily inducted into the world of gangs Some people just want to be part of something and then you just step into it. You don't know what it's going to take you I stepped into it by accident and it took me Places I didn't want to go and then it's a test of character as well some people get caught up in the wrong life and then It don't end well for them If you don't want to see ads if you do see that subscribe button just subscribe I you don't have to I don't care.  I died facts A year after the fall of his drug operation the police finally brought charges against geordian 2015 for intent to supply class A drugs Though he thought he might still beat the rap I'm trying to threaten me that I'm possibly looking at two to four years and all that. I don't want to be hearing that I'm sure I'm gonna bust it I'm sure I'm gonna bust it. But yeah, man is this I'm not even gonna lie. I watched this last week and he was talking about how he was gonna be this case And then he was like, oh, I went in and they was telling me a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't know And da da da da da, but I still think I'm gonna bust it. I I think this nigga's gonna lose his case He just I just don't believe Like I think they felt like I don't I don't believe it It's not looking healthy in it For almost a decade geordi enjoyed the proceeds of his criminal exploits But the reality of his lifestyle has finally caught up with him I do I do regret it though about shutting to the people Selling death because I realized that these people are killing people The stakes have been raised and geordi now has to face charges at crown court Yeah, I've just pdg with some people see it and some people don't uh two counts of uh professional intent So, yeah Basically, I'm looking at joe in it. No matter what I said is I'm looking at joe Maybe Maybe I do music after all the documentaries that I want to watch have been watched But that could be for hours now He now faces the prospect of a serious jail time for his years of gang activity It's a path that was determined by the choices he made as an impressionable teenager The voices of the gangs are always stronger than The family's voices because if the gang's voices were the stronger half of the things that your family were telling you You would listen, but the gang's voices are always stronger because That's what washes your brain out I will man.   I'm a growing teenager.  So you're gonna listen to whatever else is being told They wash your brain with lies and this and that and that's what that's supposed to do because that's their job In the borough of lewisham new cross known as ghetto to some young locals Is one of the toughest neighborhoods in london and has a long history of gang related problems She says you want to That's crazy, bro, I just said it all up yesterday So I don't I'm not sure how any of any of it works It says some of you see some of y'all are seeing that button like the subscribe button. Some of y'all aren't Just let me know if y'all see it or not I mean, I'm not sure either um But I'm not anyway young people regrettably caught up in the slipstream of the culture Music plays a pivotal role in them finding a way to escape its pull Oh, that's IQ Some road man says you wanna flex with me Music is my life and That's how it's always gonna be Music is a thing that will calm me down and get me hyped. Music is emotional thing It can bring you to certain places music can bring around the world When you start hanging with people that are doing good and see them going for places You're like, man, I want to be a part of this. I want to be part of the change Cairo is part of a music collective called phsb Along with one of his best friends. Myron also known as m dot Roachie for the tantrum I don't want to do it just face time I'm sorry. Be out got Sam for Cairo and Myron. This studio is represented as safe haven I'm sorry. Be out got Sam Cairo and Myron This studio is represented as safe haven for them and others in an area unfortunately renowned for gang related violence And local beefs When did I say that? I said anybody you said many buddy. Let me solo it. No All right So apparently m dot is gone already. All right Ha Many buddy Shut up, man She said I'm too rolled but I'm as expected from two teenagers The boys are immersed in the fun of future dreams in their hopes of becoming music stars I'm sorry. Be out got Sam. So many buddy fact Fam I keep saying it now because you said that However, the presence of gangs outside of the four walls of this studio Still pose a clear and present danger to the lives of young people like Cairo To the people that are dying around you. It's getting too close. So you're fair. That's going to be you next Or someone like one of my best friends like I don't know man. I don't know what I would do if like one of my guys died like Probably flip out go crazy I messed up a couple part like let me go again. Let me go again It's the first day of the murder trial for the two teenagers accused of killing Shaquon Fearon For the first time Sharon heard explicit details of how her son Shaquon was killed Did you see the knife? Yep, but when we're coming out it was on the desk Okay, maybe two year up to the front more. That's all I'm going to get to see it And that was horrible when I see the glimpse of knife and see the knife Ben Oh my god I've looked at the knife and I've cried I've cried and I've said why When I saw that knife and I was selling myself Why is it I'm shaking My body was just literally shaking and I'm trying to Calm myself and I'm just imagining the knife going inside my son For a child to be carrying a knife like that Like what let me see that's just like a gun Oh, you know respectfully let's not say that man For teenagers in this environment carrying a knife is deemed essential But it's governed by a code of silence and secrets Your kid could be in the house all smiling and joking when he leaves the house is a completely different thing So and that's that's a lot of people that used to be me when I'm in the house All right, my mom never knew what I was up to my dad never knew what I was up to Like I was just a perfect child in the house But as soon as I left all my mates and that going to that party's at 2 3 in the morning. What are that? Man, that's that that's real tough Be the best actors when you're in the crib, man the best Parents don't know what's going on in that joint As soon as you step out, you know, you a hardest nigga on earth Stuff you're stabbing people down here all over the place going back home eating sunday dinner and all of that No, when you're any different and that's that's how it is Rue Oye used to be in a gang He's now a leading mentor who helps active gang members reassess their lives Despite a legal case looming Jordi is trying to turn his life around and step away from his checkered past Where'd you think you're right in terms of like your transition from Roadman to a real man so to speak. I'm a better man. I don't do them things no more I think I think definitely you come a long way That's happened.  I'm a civilian. I ain't doing none of that Have changed so there are certain people that you can't have around you and that's just not honest truth The only person that's made a significant change in my life will probably be I think like Juro Juro inspires change by helping gang members to get legitimate jobs and set up their own businesses The reason why I stopped I was thinking Rob. Do I want to get nicked again? Do I want to keep getting I don't want to do this no more I'm trying to be someone I'm trying to be different. I want to be a different. I want to I want to make an impact I don't want to do a lot of things in life Speak of what he is and will tell you of things to come He will give me glory Because he will take what with these new influences in his life Jordy feels he's now on the right path as he knows that escaping gang Goes down to two choices. You need to chew zero frames drop. So it shouldn't be like what you want to do That's what I'm saying to you. It's not from my side. Yo or yo dead in it Is where it is. That's the road. That's that's what is that's what's gonna happen Despite his efforts to make a change his lifestyle and choices eventually caught up with him As Jordy was sentenced and sent to prison for just over two and a half years So I'm saying man, if you in that life, man, you got to have a way out.   Yo, this ain't worth it I feel like I've got a message in the story to tell now To stop other people going in there. I can say so many laughs From just my story Jordy had the support to transition away from being in a gang But for the majority leaving the lifestyle behind it's not as simple and straightforward It's not that easy for everyone to say you can just get up and leave Can't drop everyone, you know anywhere I go everywhere. I know somebody And all that I constantly think of is have I done something to that person? Now he didn't get splashed. He got um He got caught by like the police Police jam them I've seen a few of my friends try leave this life or go do their musical whatever Like they think they're safe two Tuesdays now. They come back to London come back to wherever And that's just it. They're just dead In broccoli despite the harrowing experience of having to sit through the trial of her son's murder Normal life has had to continue for Sharon What are you coming? I think it's a All right Sharon and others in the community Are desperately trying to understand what can be done to stop the serious gang inspired violence that is cutting these young lives short I'm fretting about my grandkids. I do not want to get that phone call That all comes quicker grand. I don't want that and you're wondering who is next I'm just wondering why is it so much weapon going into school? So there is no rules It seems like the school them just let the kids everybody just get on with what happening. So this is what happening now It's too much The net is open. So the kids don't do what they want to do It's like kids is growing on their own The fear and frustration that mothers like Sharon feels stemmed from the acceptance and prevalence of knife use in the community The gang is going on but the system is not doing anything to stop these come on You know gang is here. You need to sit out here To see when the gang them come out in the daytime summer Socially in the summertime to see in areas where you know It's going on like that. You need to come out and to see where the route is And then try to pull it down Where is the system? Where is the system? You got to stop these gang But teens are still being drawn into gangs With the problem being that once they're in Many feel it's simply too difficult to get out Last side note man like hold on now Now hold on look at this This is this is what like when y'all pat like when y'all in these shit and something go wrong Like this is this is I know probably some of y'all sink this already This is the phone call y'all get This is the phone call you get So just imagine when y'all doing all that out there and this this and that and when y'all life get took that's what y'all parents go through You want to ask basically getting short From back in the day, I've been on this road One of them others to know man stop I couldn't eat y'all Awareness That's two deaths you dying your friends die inside nobody wants to outlive their kids period Cairo and vulnerable young boys like him are entangled in the lifestyle Get a close proximity to this dangerous world in turn creates doubts about exactly where they stand Hello, you're not in a gang you might you might Call yourselves something or you got you might you got a music group That's that's called something but it's not a gang thing. Just got a lot of people that are friends It's not a thing like we're going out causing trouble.  Cairo's music collective phsb have assembled on the woodpecker estate to film a new music video for the artist Wallace Dantes featuring M.Doc the video shoot settings for um a new song not my song but Um M.Doc and he's in my group. So I support him for his video shoot. Oh, yeah Though they are just teenagers Phsb have an impressive following on social media They're hoping success will get them out of their environment and challenge many stereotypes.  See there's success going to get you out the hood or haters going to take you out So and even though some people might not think it's positive It's not positive because we're not out there doing a madness without making music My definition of a friday Choosing to shoot a scene inside one of the blocks They come face to face with the stereotyping that still condemns any gathering of young black boys as potential trouble Believe it Okay, Karen like like if they're just shooting a music Thira and Myron are used to being insulted in this way when seen together with their friends She was just probably on a bad day or something. I don't know It's because some people in the block share when they see all of us in a block They don't like it because that's what they live in it. Everyone has their mouth to talk in it So they're free to talk where they want to but we know what we know and we're gonna go as far as we want to go Probably go further than her in there. She was terrified. She was terrified. She walked. Hold on.   Everyone has their mouth to talk in it So they're free to talk where they want to talk but we know what we know and we are gonna go as far as we want to go Probably go further than her in there She's living in the block man. We're trying to get out the block. She's still in the block Let me Get out of the block Yeah, run them in famous. That's makes me feel good in it. I could do something good. So yeah We just need to keep on doing it One day we'll be there one day we'll get everyone out of the hood. That's all it is man.  We're gonna do it The boys are in good spirits But just a day earlier things were very different for kairou and his friends Me i'ma wait to video shoot to doggy them It was the first day of filming for the music video The shoot was in catford also in the borough of lewisham and an area they know has dangerous gangs I'm young and I go with my friends. I'll go over there because I know That if there's a chance of anything happening I got my friends there to back me up and Ah, that's a bogus way to think man if your friends leave you Just as fast as you You can count to three money Y'all hear it in the songs.  So I'm never So I'm never nervous It's not because we're a gang or we're take care of ourselves. That's just because you know something might happen And you just want to be able to protect ourselves and anything that happens His mother shireen suspects the lengths kairou and his friends will go to protect one another Kairou has carried knives He carried knives in new medication He'd have a waltz feeling for his knife. He hasn't told he didn't am told me feeling for his life But obviously why are you carrying a knife for? But she is accepting of the harsh reality that kairou's life is regularly in danger And that in his world different rules apply I'm not one of those parents that are no not my son Not my child. We never do that. No because really truly when he is outside Yeah, they can get up to anything that you don't know they can hide things from you Be who nice when they come home. Yes mom did it mom and then Yeah on the road and you're some gunman She's speaking real real facts.  I'm just here to shoot the video man. Damn Damn But something soon has them sensing danger Boys are circling Where we were filming and we kept on seeing them circling and felt like they were they kept on seeing them Like someone was plotting on us. No, it's not used to the circuit. They're standing there The group get more nervous as people disappear into the shadows and then reappear They're still standing over there just standing around there From a certain one team standing right here Something was happening. So we kept on going out to check and like in the middle of a video show we kept on Moving about moving where because we didn't know what these boys were planning because we could see them just circling And true, we know that certain boys don't like us We just know that we have to always keep on point always be wary of us around me The boys were fearful that they were being set up to be attacked by a local gang. With Cairo and his friends seemingly trapped, the situation takes a dramatic turn. In Catford, Cairo and his friends fear that they were being set up to be attacked by a gang, watching them at their video shoot. Feeling under threat, a flick knife was quickly produced. Eventually the boys looking on, back off, and Cairo and his friends finally relax, but Cairo's readiness to use a knife after his preview. This conviction for carrying one is a worrying sign. Even though he was compelled by fear and danger, it was one bad choice too many. Four months after the music video incident, Cairo is arrested for a third time for possession of an offensive weapon. In March 2016, he is sentenced to six months in youth custody. This is the first time Cairo has been sent to jail, but his journey to prison was insignificant compared to what was about to happen to his close friend Myron just six weeks later. Two boys aged 15 and 16 are being questioned by detectives investigating the fatal stabbing of a 17 year old during a fight in New Cross. He's been named by friends as aspiring rapper Myron Yade, known as M.Dot. Damn, this is what happened. In a too familiar tale following an altercation with a group of boys, Myron was stabbed whilst on Campion Street, New Cross.  So tell me, how you made this two inches? R.I.P. On the Woodpecker estate, a community once again gathers to remember and celebrate a young life lost. Hold up to something's happened right now. Grab something. Hold up to something's happened. Just think up. We're a community. Grab on to something's happened right now. The minute silence please. Moment of silence. Make sure I can see. As a talented artist, Myron attended a performing arts college, a world away from knives, guns, and gangs. This one thing is dropping off? Magnums? I know a homeless person came to drink them. Positive. But this inescapable culture in his environment was the root cause of his death. This culture makes a leader man alone, man. To use knives to settle the most minor of quarrels, Myron's friends are still struggling to come to terms with his senseless killing. Hello. How you feeling about the whole Myron situation? That as a whole, the whole thing. You ever need regrets? Yeah, you can regret going to Joe. That's even worse when your man loses life and you in behind bars, you can't do nothing about it. In the wake of Myron's death, conflicting voices in the community highlight the difficult choices that these young people have to make. There's that M.Dots family that want justice and things like that, and then there's the oldest telling us, yeah, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. It's the environment, isn't it, that if we're going to start, if we're coming, we're going to come back to the hood every day, we're going to come back to the door every day. We're going to hear the oldest and I'll tell us what, you man ain't done nothing. Go do this. 2016. We're going to go on the roads and then there's going to be parents like, raw. Like, don't go out there, don't do the same, cherish that, there's too much messages through our head that it's too much to do. Myron's friends can see how his murder is affecting the community and they fear for the future. Everyone's scared, I swear everyone's scared. People are just not thinking and that, that. When one person dies, everyone from that. People are just not thinking. I repeated that man too, man. When one person dies, everyone from that side of things, it's time for retaliation. They're going to retaliate.  You know what I'm saying? That's how you just want to keep on getting shot. She's going to look like her too. I didn't even say it's going to get worse. The cost of gang culture is not just being felt in terms of lives lost, but also families being shattered. After seven months and three attempts to convict those accused of killing her son, Sharon has been given the news she has been hoping to avoid. The liaison officer called me and said to me that the CPS was saying that I cannot go for another child. They think we don't need a third child because the jury failed twice to reach the verdict. Damn! No, I can't live with it. I can't live with it. These two boys supposed to be just walked through the door just like that. And my child life is gone from the start to the end. It's on the CCTV street. Oh boy. Shorty. Like this is the real reality of it. This little boy can go one of two ways. He could be plotting to get back in the century, or he could be going the lawyer way to go fix the judicial system, man. An eyewitness was there who saw them and the jury failed twice to reach the verdict. That's that you did, man. I'm tempted, man. This team also fails. Where is the justice? Is that the law? Is that the rule? I am here, and I will fight for my son. I need justice. Justice. It has to happen for my son, for Shaquan. It's a massive blow to a mother's sense of meaning in the tragic loss of a child, but her resolve is unwavering. Justice has been done, but she wants a better outcome. All of the problem, it's about guns. Who is there talking about?  So it will continue if it doesn't have a solution. It has to have a stop.  Come on. Enough is enough. I swear everyone's scared.  That's just what I think. It's like we're losing everyone that was close to us. R.A.P. Yeah, nigga, let's zoom in, okay, lad? August 5th, 2016, 11 months after Shaquan and four months after Myron was stabbed and killed. When Lorando's chokey was stabbed to death, huh, man. Not even a lie. That was one of the better documentaries that I've watched, man. T.L.O. Don't forget to leave a like, comment, subscribe, turn on your post notification bells. We still on Twitch, man. It's Documentary Monday, man. Come join us if you've got time. If not, you know, bless you. I mean, excuse me.