This picture you're about to see is the first cinematic study of the preparation a rival and Establishment of permanent cover for secret agents The apportionment and having with us for this occasion Colonel Robinson chief of schools and training Colonel before we start the picture perhaps you wouldn't mind saying a few words All right, Lieutenant. I Will make this short because I know that you are all just as anxious to see this movie as I am I wish that Were possible for me to meet all of you men personally But since it isn't I'll take this opportunity to say hello and to tell you that I'm glad you're with us Many of you are going to desks in this country or to assignments and neutral countries Where you may not be faced with the problems portrayed in this film But if this brings you just a little closer to those men who are going into the hottest spots. I Hope that it will help you to do a better job This picture does not presume to give you all of the answers of course. I Do think however that it will provide a foundation on which to do your own building for after all no more service provides a greater scope for individual initiative and Imagination and this job for which you have volunteered. All right Lieutenant. Take it away. Thank you Colonel Okay, I'll let it go. This is an undercover agent At least the popular conception of how such a fellow looks and behaves He is inconspicuous. He blends with his environment He isn't short of the ideal agent from the enemy's point of view He's just the kind of agent the enemy is waiting for with open arms And for that reason just the kind of agent you aren't going to be Student now see if I made a good impression at the schools. Nice work. Thank you, sir Pull up a chair cigarette Thanks, I think you were told something about your assignment before you went to E. Weren't you Al? Yes to obtain intelligence on aviation production and the position of vital targets in the capital district of enemy area Correct. You have to set up an intelligence organization, which will gather information for an SO operation Are you set on your cover? Not definitely. I've narrowed it down to two Either a government inspector or a chief mechanic government inspector Better for a native agent than a planted one And these days when enemy area is using every available man under 50 in the army People might wonder what special pull you had Anything that makes people ask questions Even innocent ones is bad color. Then you think the mechanics the better bet If you're a good mechanic You know nothing will blow your quicker than not knowing your job Well, I put in seven years with General Motors and with a little brushing up I think I'd be all right mechanic in an airplane plant near the capital It might be the ticket We know they need good mechanics so badly now that it might not take you too long to establish good permanent cover Now if I could get a job on the night shift, I'd have plenty of time to devote to my hobby During today Good I like the way you're thinking Now go to work Backgrounds familiar to you. You'll be able to get the latest material at the farm Most recent laws and local restrictions even the latest slang our intelligence has picked up fine I've already made up a list of things to check off good There's anything you don't get that you think you need Doors always open By the way, I'll get right to work on those financial details for you Hope to have that insurance for your family pushed through before you leave. That's very kind of you. No, it's not kind It's my job to do everything I can to help you think about nothing, but your job. Well, I'll let you know when I'm ready, right? Good morning. Good morning. I'm student Charles Lawyer pretty good cover. Thank you sit down I'm going over your evaluations from the schools. Oh that stuff I Spent enough time on the other side to know my way around That's what you told him at E after they took your pants off at the Thursday night round table If you set me down in a real spot, it'll be another story. We're considering you for a real spot We're trying to establish a man in one of enemy areas chief seaports to observe the naval concentration there and to find out whether or not There's a submarine base in that vicinity now You could do it if you went in with the right attitude look if you think I've got the ability don't worry about my attitude Which port is it? El Porto El Porto My old stamping grounds. I could draw that coast with my eyes closed Well, this job calls for you going in with your eyes open now. You know the locale. All right But that isn't enough to get by now think it over and come back when you ready to talk cover I'm ready now El Porto. Let me see I've got it a fishing boat skipper. I've raced around there enough to know the channels by heart Fishing has possibilities and we have a lot of contacts with fishermen around there You know who could probably take care of you and then it's all set No, it's just something to consider now if it doesn't hurt your feelings We'd like to bust you from skipper to an ordinary seaman You know the every skipper is known to the shore patrol there But if you were just a member of the crew like the thousands of in every seat port you might get by with it get by with it I talked the language like a native. I know those waters better than most natives. How can I miss very easily? By going on like you've been going by knowing only answers before you even think of the questions Now we'll give you all the dope you require about this El Porto area, but just don't read it absorb it Okay, if you want to waste time But I'll tell you I know El Porto like a book Perhaps the enemy has added a couple of chapters since you've left. Hi, I sir. Not on your story, eh? Well, I'd like to try it out. Shoot Let's see how closely it conforms to your own life Don't forget. I'll be watching for errors as closely as an enemy police officer. Here it is My name is Albert Horn Both my parents were born in enemy area and I lived in Detroit for five years when I was born there in 1903 I Was in Detroit until 1913 When my mother died and I was sent back to live with my aunt and uncle in the capital of enemy area I graduated from the gymnasium in 1920 and went to work in my uncle's bicycle shop in 1924 I went back to Detroit and worked as an apprentice in the Ford plant 1926 I transferred to General Motors where I worked as a machinist until 1931 From 1931 I was on relief until 1936 when I went back to my old job at General Motors Just before my home country went into the war I thought it was my duty to return there and serve in any way I could Arriving here on the US tourist passport. I volunteered with the engineers and Then After a year and three months in the army, I'm disjointed with a bad bank. Have I had a bad back? No, but I thought I could fake it Never say anything you can't prove Why not make it sciatica? That's one element the best doctor in the world can't prove you haven't got Okay sciatica I convalesced for a short time in the country at a friend's house That will be the farmhouse you're taken to by the reception committee And then when I'm directed to find employment in an aircraft factory because of my technical experience I come to the camp who make arrangements for an interview with the superintendent of the falcon plant Sounds all right. I'll Let's start a stand up. It's a little glib perhaps. It isn't bad Now you talk a good fisherman. Now you've got to learn to be a good fisherman The next thing in the agenda is a couple of weeks with the commercial fisherman on the grand banks Won't I think enough of fish on the other side without having to get a two-week start? Followed isn't a question of stinking like a fisherman. Oh, that's important too. You've got to know the ropes literally I mean, but I'm a fisherman from way back. Why I landed the biggest sailfish ever caught in Mexican waters back in 33 189 pounds you can look it up in the record book. I'd rather read the records in your hands. Let me see your palms. Oh, good killesses I think a couple of weeks of salt water and hard work really gets you in shape But I've got to have some relaxation after all. I'm not going abroad for my health And it's my neck Now that's where you're wrong Once you join our team, it isn't a question of your own neck anymore Those brains of yours are a vital connection point in our system of intelligence when one fuse is blown The lights go out all over the house. So We're just as interested in safeguarding that neck of yours as you are Whether you're checked before you leave or on the other side The principle is always the same The most unimportant detail may be the most important when you get your hair cut be sure it's enemy area style The hands must look as if they've done the work Every scar must conform with your cover story Clothes may not necessarily make the agent but they surely break the agent if they aren't checked and rechecked That's an enemy area cut all right, but it's too expensive for a mechanic Well, that's the type of coat you would wear, but there aren't any left That's right. The army got all the heavy coats in the last winter drive. How about that one? I Think this raincoat would be better Every piece of clothing is examined for the right labels the right laundry marks the proper amount of wear and tear Every toilet article examined minutely How about this razor? Can we use straight razors over there now because of the shortage of blades? Even if your papers have been forged by experts from the most recent enemy area documents Proof them yourselves Just a minute. This army discharge reads Alfred Horne. Everything else is Albert Horne Nice eye. I just want to see if you're on the ball You don't have to worry about the rest of those papers Even the texture and water marks have been duplicated Just as important as your official papers and more subtle to select Are your casual effects? The odds and ends you happen to have with you that may be more convincing to the enemy area police than your identification and travel permit The stickers on your suitcase a handful of cigarettes a train stub An old address book a letter addressed to you as a private in the army from a girl in the town You're going to and a snapshot of her with you in an enemy area uniform Details each one a thread woven into the pattern of your cover story How many cases of blown cover you studied would you to neglect of some insignificant detail of cover?  I've got a tough hands to spend and up and still live and tough ends to take This is German agent X. He landed in Canada from a submarine two days ago So far he's doing all right for himself His landlady believes he's a war worker from out west in British Columbia This afternoon his forged papers and his convincing line got him a job in an aluminum plant No wonder he feels like joining in the singing Happy is the day when we line up for our pay as we go rolling rolling home Say that's not bad. Come on over and join us. Will you? Thanks. No matter if I do I Got more fans jolly jolly for fans. I got four pens still ask me all my life I've got tough ends to spend and tough ends to land and no pants to send home to my wife or wife It's getting late I'd better be going.  We're just beginning to wet our whistles I'd like to have another drink with you boys, but I got to be on the job at the crack of dawn. Good night fellas Oh, we'll see you again. What's the damage? That'll be a dollar 80. That's easy. Keep the change Thanks come again. Why don't hey, will you look at this? What do you got there Peg? Not those old bill the government call him before the war Gee, I haven't seen one of these big fellas in a long time Now we're the devil. He is supposed to get this Yes, Agent X was doing all right for himself until he passed an obsolete bill one-third larger than the present issue Months of preparation were nullified by insufficient attention to what seemed like an insignificant detail Carelessness and spiculousness blown cover That's the fatal triple play that put German agent X out of the game Agent Y was a smooth operator a Spanish phalanges who had turned in a good job for the Nazis in Mexico before moving on to Los Angeles To incite Mexican youths against other Americans and recruit the keenest of them into an espionage organization He's not been in Los Angeles long but long enough to win friends and influence zoot-suiters Come on kids. I got paid today. Have another shot Brother this tequila is murder.  The army's getting you next week anyway. What have you got to lose? Just a stomach that's all Hey, much at you. I'm the lead another round another round. Are you kidding? You know what time it is? Let's all say the bar is closed Here's a buck for yourself Maybe that'll help keep the bar open for one more round. So hey, you're really a killer, aren't you? killer What do you mean calling me a killer killer killer trying to find me off for a lousy buck And the state formation finds me 500 for selling after hours. Oh, I see killer That's an expression you use, huh? Say how long you've been in LA? Oh, I don't know three for years. What'd you live before that one? He though? Some better than you come on. Let's get out. What's the nickname for some Bernardino? What is this third degree?  Come on. We'll catch you Everyone who lives there knows the nickname of some Bernardino brother Sanfordo Anybody that's never heard of a killer dealer The waiter was anti-phalangist and anti-nazi From that moment on he kept his eyes on senior wives He began to notice other idiomatic slips When his suspicions were passed over to the authorities they were quickly confirmed And the enemy lost a clever agent But not quite clever enough to remember that even details of slang are a necessary part of his cover equipment What did you say you worked for in Copenhagen? Helping for a dairy company. And what is your exact position with this company? I'm the assistant foreign branch manager in Germany British agent Z has made repeated trips to Germany under convincing commercial cover Even when he was picked up for making a somewhat suspicious call to Copenhagen his story was unshaken And the way he was presenting it was even beginning to influence the expert interrogators of the SS Dairy's incorporated and what is still dressed of this company in Copenhagen? Gentlemen, I'd be very glad to answer your questions all day But I have a good many business details complete before leaving your city and I'm quite sure you have many more important things to do We are not interested in persecuting Danes Security police is not an organization of persecution It's an organization that protects you against the enemies of the state You are guilty You will not escape us If you are who you say you are We have nothing to fear from us And I have your permission to leave Yes, you may go Thank you Pardon me captain You see air grease if my memory is correct There has been no hair grease on the continent since the end of 1940 quiet have a sample of this hair grease Analyzed immediately. It will be kept in solitary confinement Ending the report from the laboratory Come along. So you have not been in England since 1938 Then how do you account for the fact that this hair grease is a British product which has been applied First great cover story and an excellent man Destroyed by a few drops of hairdressing Thoughtlessly rubbed into his hair during his last trip to England a few days before Months of training Final weeks of thorough briefing and our agents are ready for the second leg of their journey on to base country Charles and a heavy bomber under temporary military cover While Al crosses as a private on a common transport In a fashionable apartment in a base country capital Al locates his desk You seem pretty well prepared on the whole We'll have a final briefing as soon as you lose your sea legs Thank you We picked up some of the latest changes in the area regulations that may alter your documentation a little Wish they quit making new regulations every day. I'd sleep better Well From their point of view, they think they're being very clever They keep changing the rules every five minutes a newcomer can't stay hidden very long theoretically But we found that by keeping our eyes open and using our heads We can beat that game For instance, don't go into a strange bar in order the first thing that pops into your head Your favorite poison may be on the vote list that day Look around and see what the others are drinking Then if you're stuck appear undecided so long that the waiter will suggest something for you mm-hmm Just remember This is no suicide mission It's a 24-hour a day job with the odds all in your favor And to make sure of that. I always tell my men to take out life insurance. I Think that's been taken care of back in there. No, I mean your own personal life insurance by leaving open some avenue of escape In case things get too hot for you Study your means of exfiltration just as carefully as infiltration I've known men who were expert drivers in first second and high But we never knew how to go into reverse Don't worry. I'm not the hero type good But just how do you go about leaving this? Avenue of escape well in the first place Have a cover story ready for that emergency exit As soon as possible hide a cache of money somewhere And when you start building your organization keep contacts whose only function is to help your getaway In other words when I buy this ticket to enemy area you want me to make sure it's around trip ticket In another base country Charles is concentrating on last-minute details of his infiltration into enemy area What's your name Sanford Sanford it's a good thing.  We can send agents into enemy area They can go overland either overtly under good legal cover or covetly Sneaking across the border with the help of the underground An agent traveling overtly would have to pass as a national from a neutral country under some sort of commercial cover When you're crossing a border this way You should not only act as if you have nothing to hide. You should actually have nothing to hide Don't bring compromising materials or messages through these controls They can be sent to you more safely by other methods once you're established in enemy area If you're crossing the border covetly as thousands are doing in Europe these days, don't carry a map with you It's unhealthy Unless you carry it in your own head Memorize the principal landmarks and the basic topography of the area you're entering Until you can make your own model of the country on the sand table If a guide is necessary be sure you check his reliability Members of the underground are your best bet Professionals who charge you exorbitant prices are loyal to only one cause money The enemy world may be just as bright as yours Borders breed double agents who charge you a thousand dollars to lead you over the border and being eminently fair Charge the enemy an equal amount to lead them to you if you're worried about doubling back on yourself Use your ingenuity and fashioning an impromptu chart of your course camouflaged as Harmless doodling after you've crossed the frontier. Don't get overconfident about those border controls You're in a 24-hour a day battle of wits The enemy has secret weapons of his own Keep moving across country by a circuitous route For the border isn't a black thread across the map. It's a strip at least 15 miles wide Infested with collaborationists counter espionage agents and special police human landmines hidden among the native population to blast your cover and finally When you reach a town far enough inland Don't enter it from the border side Circle around it and enter it from the other side as if you were coming from the interior But as I understood it that was going in by plane. Yes In your case, it will be safer and faster to drop you by parachute We like our men do have a good working knowledge of other methods of penetration How about these plane landings I've heard of? Naturally when we have a feel that we can land on safely without being discovered. It's more efficient We can pick up an outgoing agent of the same time for instance The only place we can land on safely now is guerrilla territory How low is this plane going to be when I jump? Maybe it'd be a good idea for you to sit down with a pilot who's going to fly you in He'll give you the dope on just how it's going to be And another thing we never set a date until we're damn sure we found the right dropping point Like this one we picked out for you for instance. It's just about perfect It's a level grassy space large enough to allow for adverse wind conditions And it's far enough removed from trees and telegraph wires so that daylight won't find you hanging out there like an ornament on a Christmas tree It's 15 miles to the nearest anti aircraft setup and my buddies will create a little diversion over there to keep their minds off Us until we've set you down There's a river running closely that I can follow practically all the way in and a couple of little lakes on the other side They make pretty good landmarks to help me spot the place in the moonlight About a mile away from the dropping point. There's a safe house owned by a peasant working with us The way is on chief will be there waiting for you Everything's on schedule. How soon will they be here? 33 minutes take the radio out and bury it The container being dropped with Al is bulky evidence of Al's arrival Unless it can be buried deep enough and fast enough for empty containers buried instantly Tell no tales Broken bones. No, I think I made it all one piece. Our friend's farm is up the hill there just about a mile I'll show you the way. What about my gear? Don't worry. The boys will take care of it. Fine. Let's go. Al enjoys a much needed rest Charles employs another method of infiltration in reaching enemy area coast a neutral fishing schooner and a tenor at fishermen both familiar sites to this waterfront town Provide the most natural sort of cover for Charles arrival Can you pick him out? No I'm afraid the enemy area shore patrol It's that stroke of yours Charles Look around at the other short jerky stroke Not the most graceful in the world, but better adapted to choppy surfs and heavy boats Now look at yours long sweeping strokes What do you think you are Charlie back in the dear old Harvard shell? Yes, just to detail But the kind of detail the enemy shore patrol is watching for Wait a minute there Charles How about that knot? Don't tell me you've forgotten the fishermen here have their own particular method of tying up a boat Keep your eyes open and your mind open Charles Otherwise you're liable to tie that knot around your own neck As soon as curfew is lifted Al hits the road to the nearest railway terminal Ask him where he's coming from and he'd say from the farm where I was convalescing After I was evacuated from the bomb city of pro-bird and where was he going? To enemy town to visit my fiancee and try to get a part-time job until I'm strong enough to get into a war plan Oh boy, maybe I can get a hit to the station. Wait a minute Al What did they tell you about cars in enemy area? Nine out of ten their state officials Just the boys who might ask embarrassing questions Better hope it brother. It's better to find a hole in your shoe than a hole in your cover That's right whistle be as natural as you can But just a second. What's that? You're whistling Wait till the sun shines Nelly That's better a V&E's Waltz They weren't kidding when they told you at the schools that this was a 24-hour a day job Even what you whistle has to conform to cover So far so good Al You're not taking the bus because the police are watching the buses pretty carefully these days Instead as soon as enemy area restrictions allow daylight travel You've located the first rural station in the opposite direction from the dropping point That's your preference. That's it Al. Sit back and take this snap control in stride You've left all Compromising material behind to be sent to you later at a previously arranged address And you know your temporary cover story for this pit holds water Because you tested it for leaps at the farmhouse last night. What's your name? Albert Horn? Why are you coming from the farm near Fulberg? Farmer You don't look like a farmer. I'm not I was evacuated after being bombed out of a hospital in Fulberg. Oh Where you headed? Enemy town Sorry to ask you so many questions, but an unidentified plane flew over the neighborhood last night and we can't take any chances Why are you going to enemy town? I can show you Not bad My fiancé I wouldn't mind going to enemy town for that myself. Oh, it's my patriotic duty. That's your duty, huh? I wish all our patriotic duties could be so pleasant In enemy town halfway between the dropping point and the capital Al heads for the address He was given by the liaison chief Mr. Durand. Yes Someone tell me we're looking for an assistant assistant. I could use an assistant How much experience have you had? I was a mechanic in the army two years in the tank or good I've been looking for a man with your kind of training, and I'm your man got your work closed with you right here in my bag Good come on inside. I'll start you right to work. Thank you, sir Over the noise of the machines Durand gives out the necessary instructions for the last leg of his journey to the capital Like that you're throwing away too much Now a days they take four fifths of our catch, so we use this with chowder Performance is you're throwing this away. I mean wonder where you water when he warned you about it four weeks ago Well, I'll just tell him ours out of town that day for my old ladies funeral.  Remember what we told you Al That's why informers like them too That's why the desk clerks the maids the waiters at the bellboys are all on the payroll of the secret police And how about conformity to cover? What's a mechanic doing at the best hotel boarding with the family is a good idea if you know the family? If they're overly suspicious, it's too easy for them to keep tabs on you And if they're overly friendly, they might restrict your movements too much No, better keep on going Al But keep it in mind when you're ready for permanent quarters Forget that talkative lamb lady Al she'll be watching you like a hawk no matter how discreet you are She'll find something to talk about Sorry to spoil your phone Al But remember every prostitutes an informer or a potential informer And that's a good reason for staying out of brothels too Plus the fact that Lamour is constantly being interrupted by snap controls But the merchant marines are breeding ground of political resistance Attracting agent provocateurs and snap controls and again conformity to cover Would a respectable craftsman pick a dive like this? You can't find perfect security anywhere in town now This is probably your safest bet for the first few days So you might as well go in and get some shut eye Meanwhile, we'll take a swing over to the coast and see how our old friend Charles is getting along Charles was supposed to spend two or three weeks in the fishing village where he landed Building up his recent past before working his way up the coast toward El Porto But two or three weeks to the average agent is just two or three days to Charles After all he's a fast worker. How about letting him walk you home after work? Some other time maybe When my boyfriend gets you doubt again He's over there now In the corner you get sort of jealous sometimes Submarine a well, what does he look like? This is kind of a hangout for them, isn't it? You better drink your beer. All right. All right Any idea how soon you'll be shipping out again? So For a fisherman you ask an awful lot of questions Tell the truth now You wouldn't like me to sit around here like a clam. No, I guess not I Get kind of tired looking with these fishermen hanging around here like a lot of sour apples But you you're sort of different Oh, I better get back to my sailor now. He's got his eye on me. That's all right. You keep the change Say what do you catch out there goldfish another beer? No, it's all right. It's paid for Out of that tip that fisherman left me Tip a what's a fisherman doing throwing his money around probably another one of those black market bugs? Oh, I don't know he seemed honest enough He really is an interesting fellow interesting.  He seems a lot smarter than the others. Well, you better not get smart with you boy meets girl If this were a Hollywood movie that would be the beginning but here in enemy area. It's much more likely to be What's the matter Al have a bad night getting jittery Don't let it get you down Sooner or later it happens to the best of them You can handle it.  I guess I'll go out and have a look around It's probably nothing but the keeper waiting and you start talking. Good morning, sir. May I clean your room now? Oh, I sure I was just getting ready to go out. Oh, it was a little better last night, wasn't it sir? But I hear they knocked out a ball bearing factory on the outskirts. Oh, that's a shame Yes, the way things are going they'll lead every man in the country now Do you work here in town, sir? Oh, I got a job at the Falcon plant Falcon plant. Oh, that's where my cousin works. What department are you in? I mean, I've got an appointment for a job at the Falcon plant. Oh good for you. I hear they're taking out a lot of men these days See it's a quite a bus ride out there better be going. Well, good luck to you, sir. Thank you Remember what we told you if something frightens you don't run away from it turn and meet it Easy does it now on me off sir. You have the right time 1035 thank you very much. Don't you know you shouldn't throw things in the street? I'm sorry sir. I guess I forgot forgot with signs all over town warning you against it Let me see your identification card pick it up in future Observe the regulations. Yes, sir An overconfident agent doesn't have to look for trouble. He'll find it just as surely as student Charles All set to make sensational disclosures. The goddamn did it what the hell's he trying to do show off? Now Porter is a pretty vital spot. He ought to have his brains examined if he has any left after the enemy secret police get through with him Let's see weren't you the fellow who didn't have to study up because he knew this spot by heart Look at you soaking wet out of breath in danger of your life If you were a good agent instead of just a daring one You'd be home in bed like any other respectable member of enemy area society Well, your paper seemed to be in order Like any other respectable member of enemy area society Al gets a war production job What do these get on the night shift? Thank you, sir moves in with a private family Makes friends with his fellow workers Attends the government labor rally listens patiently to all official broadcasts Receives praise from the foreman as a conscientious workman Takes a stroll through the park on his way to his job on the night shift Like any other respectable member of enemy area society Look at your paper help yourself. Thanks Say I see we shot down 12 more their bombers last night. Yeah, the situation seems to be improving. I Hope so these last few weeks been pretty tough. Yeah Won't take a look at the sport page Thanks Say the champions going to try to make a comeback after all I thought he was all finished after they shot him down on Eastern front Just a couple of enemy area citizens having a harmless conversation on a park bench At least that's the way it looks to passers-by But this casual conversation Covers the first meeting between our agent and the cutout who will carry his first message to the WT man to be Radiated from enemy area. Well, that's it It may not make super agents out of any of you, but we thought it might stimulate some interesting discussion It's main value. It seems to me is in orienting you toward the type of work you will be doing As colonel Robinson has told you it is not an attempt to teach specific techniques But merely to present a little more realistic form the basic concepts and general principles which apply to all undercover and Semi-cover activities even in neutral countries or in the far east Where specific techniques would differ greatly from those portrayed here Of course, very few of you will ever be given missions like the ones Al and Charlie had to tackle Both of you will be recruiting training or handling agents Or performing those routine service jobs for OSS that seem to have so little connection with our agents in enemy occupied territory But every single job from camp cook to jump master is a part of the lifeline connecting the agent in the field with his home office No matter how removed your job may seem The degree of your conscientiousness in maintaining security can be the difference between success or failure in the field thousands of miles away and If this picture has shortened the distance between you and the man at the end of the line it is serving a valuable purpose But regardless of where you fit into the picture this film despite its entertainment value is really a textbook in disguise and The value of any textbook is your ability to digest the material to where it is something not merely memorized But actually transfused into your own thought processes An analytic discussion of this picture will undoubtedly crystallize and develop many points that had to be skimmed over in a film as general as this The first question came to my mind for instance was whether the desk man was right in sending Charles to El Porto in the first place He'd probably justify his decision by maintaining that Charlie's thorough knowledge of the area and his subjective motivation for the job outweighed his personal shortcomings Or you might in running this picture again test yourself for observation of deals Did you notice for instance in the scene where Al was sweating it out in the hotel room that first morning in the capital That he rubbed out in the ash tray a cigarette that had only been half smoked Well in a country where cigarettes have become a scarce and precious commodity Wouldn't this wastefulness make him conspicuous? Well that gives you an idea of some of the things that you and your other instructors can kick around and Each time you see this picture. I think you will find it more instructive and more provocative All right now you've got the floor


Good afternoon everyone and a very warm welcome on behalf of the Society of Antiquaries. I'm Martin Millett, I'm the incoming president of the society and it's my pleasure to be introducing this afternoon's proceedings and chairing the first couple of papers. This session on intertwined legacies, the legacies of colonialism and empire has been organised by our communications and events manager Daniel Wilson Higgins and our government's officer Linda Grant. Linda will be delivering the last of the short papers this afternoon. We're extremely grateful to them for putting this really exciting program together. Before we go into the program and listen to our fascinating panel of speakers, I'd just like to say a little bit about the society to place the proceedings this afternoon in context. Now the society was founded very long time ago in 1707 and since then has changed in a number of ways from small gentlemen's meeting club meeting a pub on the strand to one of be one of the foremost institutions concerned with the material evidence of the past. Archaeology, history, history of art and so forth in the UK and it's made up of an elected fellowship who are all passionate and interested in different aspects of the material past. The society's constantly changing and if you look back through its history, its emphasis, its approaches have changed. And that's one of the strengths that we respond to current interests and current needs, as well as respecting the traditions of the past. And that gives really the context for this event this afternoon. Anyone living in the Western world today will be intensely aware of the debates and interests in the way that our past has been presented and is used by different groups within society, and the material aspects of the past really reflect this. And the society, understanding some of the debates that have been going on in the contemporary world has itself been reflecting on its relationship with heritage histories, both in our own collections, and in the collections, thoughts and writings of people across the world, including our fellows. And this has encouraged us to think how we can better address these issues and better involve ourselves in debates that make the past relevant to today. One of the ways that we have been doing that is since 2020, we have had a small group forming an equality and diversity working group who have been thinking about how the society should think about these issues and change and develop its practice to reflect contemporary social needs. I'm delighted to see that Natalie Cohen and Amara Thornton from that group are here this afternoon and will be chairing bits of the proceedings. Their group has been working hard since 2020 to bring forward ideas and in a couple of weeks time, their proposals will be coming to the society's council for consideration about how we change and develop ourselves in the future. And this afternoon's presentations, in a sense, prefigure some of the sorts of things that we're hoping to develop as the society moves forward through this century. And in particular, this afternoon's event will be linked with two further ones planned for the autumn of this year, looking at intertwined legacies in the UK. And then in the spring of 2022, one that looks at the international perspectives. And I hope that these reflections and discussions will engage not only people who are currently interested and engage in the study of the past, but also show how the past is relevant to today and draw in a much wider spectrum of society to engage with these ideas and this material as the society moves forward. So we've got a very rich and warm conference this afternoon, some fascinating topics. I have to apologize myself because I'm only going to be able to be here throughout half the afternoon. And in a sense, this reflects the vibrancy of this topic because there's another event in Cambridge that I'm engaged with on the legacies of enslavement that clashes with this afternoon session. So my apologies to the speakers later on for not being here. Before we move to the first speaker, can I just make a couple of housekeeping announcements? Firstly, the speakers are going to talk for 20 to 25 minutes, and we've got five minutes for questions at the end. What I would ask people to do is if you've got a question, can you type it into the chat function on Zoom? And the person who's chairing that session will pick up questions and give them to the speaker in that five minutes discussion at the end of the paper. We're running from now until 4.10 when there will be a break until five o'clock. The webinar will remain open during that break so you don't need to sign out and then sign back in again. We will resume at 5pm with the keynote paper on why representation matters from Rashka Dave.


Thank you so much, Sonam Kalraji for joining us. Of course, Ms. Kalra needs no introduction. She is the biggest name in the Sufi music world, in the Indian music world. Thank you so much, Sonamji, for joining us on this episode of Power People, wherein we featured the who's who of the music industry. Thank you so much, Rohail.  Thank you so much for saying that. I think that the most important thing for all of us to remember is just that we're all students of music still. So it's very exciting when you say I'm on a power list. But like I said, thank you for this recognition. Thank you so much. My first question to you is, you know, you've been there. You've seen the industry shift, you know, it's now tech led, a lot of technology is there. If I have to just ask you to look back at the last 10 to 15 years till now, how has the entire music landscape overall changed in your opinion? Well, I think performance wise, live performance wise, it's become really, really exciting. It's become much slicker. I have to say that, you know, when I started performing, I remember something really simple, like I know presentation is really important to me is the way we present ourselves on stage. And I used to always say, why can't we also present when we present on stage, even a band as an ensemble dressed in the same colors, use technology. And I know that now when I look in those days, I was one of the first few people even to say, let's all just wear the same kind of coordinated clothing, present a very clean, neat stage, you know, have a certain sense of performance and theater to music as well. And I know that, you know, even my musicians would be like, his ki kya zaroorat hai and all that. And now I noticed that everyone's doing it and actually it makes such a big difference how you present on stage. And that has happened also with the advent of so much social media and people seeing how you can use light, how you can use drama, how you can mix all of that into a performance.  And I think people are now musicians have realized it's not just about getting on to stage and sitting and singing or standing and singing. It's about the whole experience. So I think that has changed. People have become really savvy in terms of the way they want to present themselves in performance. They're making it a point to connect with their audiences in a way that they never did. And it's also become that much harder, I think for an artist, because you can't just be good at your own craft of saying, OK, I know how to sing. And I'm going to go on to stage and sing. You have to now understand. You have to understand social media. You have to understand how to stay relevant on social media, how to connect your audience on social media. So you've actually got two or three other stages other than the physical stage. You've got the virtual stages that you have to be equally active on. So actually the work for an artist is increased much more. But I think it's also been really exciting because this has happened. It allows artists to push themselves that much more to not just be complacent about the fact that they're going to make their livelihood or increase their audience just by climbing on to stage and performing. They realize that they have to be a master of all these trades, you know, and have like their five fingers plugged into all of these things to understand how to become a more sort of wholesome artist that that is on the top of their game. And this is the only way you can be on the top of your game. You know, right, right, right. Absolutely.  You know, what we have seen is there was an era when we saw a lot of that and we had a story on what happened to guzzles, for example, you know, there was an era when everybody loved guzzles, Bollywood had guzzles. You know, they had a lot of, you know, Indian classical inspired music. That is going down. Is there a shift on that side? What kind of a shift are you witnessing? Also, brands are not really coming out and sponsoring such events. Is that a fact? So, honestly, I don't know if there's such a shift, Ruhil. I think that some of the good stuff that's happened is, you know, Sufi is such a loosely used word. Anything people believe if you call out to God or you say Ali or Allah, everybody believes that Sufi is a song or if they use the word like your love for Sufi is a song, that is not really true. That's not what Sufi means. However, that being said, if that is causing an interest in people to find out more about Sufi music, I'm all for that as well. I think that people are discovering Kabir, people are discovering Bulesha even in mainstream. I mean, you know, even if they say Bulea in a Ghana, but there's a reference to Bulesha, which means he's kind of in people's minds. So I think that and Kabir is very big and people are thanks to, I'd say I would give credit to Koch Studio Pakistan in this respect for bringing back this interest in Sufi music. And then, of course, Koch Studio India did that as well. Though they want only specific to Sufi music. I'd say Pakistan was much more specific to Sufi music. I think there's a huge interest in Sufi music. I met someone the other day at a music conference who said, oh, ma'am, Sufi is trending.  If you want to call it a trend, because I don't think it's a trend. It's outlived a trend. A trend is something which is short lived, but like look at the greats like Nusrat Fateh Ali Khalsa is still being heard. I mean, Abhidha Ji is still being heard. So I don't think Sufi is a trend. However, that being said, I think that more and more people, the good thing is are educated about what Sufi music is with platforms like Spotify, with the Internet. So technology coming back to even your previous question, technology has played a, has been a game changer for artists, right? It's been, you've been able to put out no matter who you were in the old days, it would be really difficult to get a contract with a record label. Now you can be anyone and from your bedroom or your little sitting room, you can put music out onto Spotify. You can put it out and people can find you on Instagram. You can become a viral sensation. And that's so wonderfully freeing and empowering for artists, right? So that's been an absolutely fantastic game changer coming back to the influence of classical music or Sufi music. So I do believe that Sufi music is still around and it will be here to stay forever with guzzles. I think if you're referring to wonderful movies like Masoom, you know, which was heavily guzzled and I think that, yes, there's less of an interest in guzzles. But I think that will also come back. I think in non mainstream, non Bollywood, there are still a lot of people singing guzzles.  You can hear the ooze and the aahs in the audience that people are so thrilled. So I think that love for poetry, because the poetry of guzzles and Sufi kalams is so very beautiful. I think that love for poetry won't die.  It's also interesting classical music is being reinvented, you know, like whether it's Rangisari Gulabi, which has been just re-sung by Kavita Seji. And before that, you know, it had been sung by why am I forgetting her name? Hang on, not Iqbal Bhanno. Yeah, I mean, even if it's a song like Rangisari Gulabi, which was sung originally by Shobha Gurtu Ji, but I think Kavita Seji has just done a reprise of it. And she's done it with Hassan in a much more modern way. So there are people. In fact, even if you get on to Instagram reels and you hear the music that people are using, they do use tumris, they do use geets. They do use classically inspired or classical, light classical pieces like this from the tumri genre from the khayal also genre from Dapa. So it's kind of I don't agree necessarily real that it's dying out. I do think you're absolutely right when you say that Bollywood perhaps is not using it as much. But I think that's the other lovely thing that's happened with social media is one of the things at one time was Bollywood was the only way you got heard. But now because of social media and because of Instagram and YouTube, you can get heard beyond just Bollywood. And therefore, I think that all of these other all of these other genres of Indian music, whether it's classical, whether it's folk, whether it's semi classical, light, they, you know, they are all getting a chance to breathe a little bit and to come back to the force. So I do believe it's going to change for the better. That's my understanding of it.  What kind of impact did it create? And among youngsters today, do they really appreciate genres like, you know, Indian classic Sufi, you know, guzzles? What is your reading of the current generation? So I think for me, when I created the Sufi gospel project, it was really for me. It was not my end idea, my end desire was not how will people respond to it? It was just something that really I believed in. It was my truth. I needed to tell my story and my beliefs through my music. And therefore, I created the Sufi gospel project very quickly for those who don't know what the Sufi gospel project is. It's basically an attempt to take the many different voices of faith and put them together to try and create one voice. To me, Sufism is an understanding, is an acceptance. As an I understand Sufism to be an acceptance of all humanity as equal. Gospel means the truth. And this truth of acceptance is what I started looking for. I looked for it in Sufi music, in gospel music, in bhakti sanghi. In contemporary poetry, I just wanted to create music that said that many different calls to God, many different hallelujahs can and must exist in harmony. So, you know, whether it was an abide with me, which is a gospel hymn that everyone knows, which is a call to God to be by one side, to abide by one, whether I took that and then found a resonance of what we were saying or actually an answer. So when you call to God and I kept thinking it was a beautiful hymn where you call to God to say, what over you abide by me? But then I found a beautiful answer in the words of Kabir Das, Sufi poet Kabir Das who says, Mokko kahaan dhoon de re bandhe, mai to tere pass mein. And then he goes on to say something so valuable and so pertinent where he says, naa mai jap mein, naa mai tap mein, naa mai vrat upavas mein, naa kaabe kailash mein, naa mandir mein, naa masjid mein. And he ends by saying, khoji hoy turath milja. Ispal ki talash mein, kahe Kabir suno bhai saad ho, mai to hoon viswas mein. And that's really what I wanted to say through all of my music, that it's not in the names you call God, it's in believing in God and also somehow through the music, putting out this very important message about the most important religion, the most important religion being the religion of humanity and the most important virtue being the virtue of kindness. And if we can remember that, then you can see God in yourself and God everywhere around you and you've attained a different kind of spirituality. So that's what I wanted to do with the music. And like I said, I did a lot of research. I found lots of common ground between seemingly disparate texts and genres of music. I mean, I blended jazz with Hindustani classical. I blended Irish music with folk Indian music and, you know, even text. And the interesting thing to me and you're asking me the response is that from day one, the response has been incredibly kind. People have just welcomed it, have been moved, have written me the loveliest emails. You know, I mean, I just came back from Bangalore and I think there were people who just came to me at the end of the show saying, we just wept and you moved us from so deep within. And that is generally the response we get because I'm talking of a world where we're all equal through the music. I'm talking of a world without borders, without labels. And I think at the very core, we all want the same thing. And I think the other thing that is artists and event planners and curators we tend to do is that we don't trust our audiences in Afro-Hail.  He'll appeal to the masses, he won't do it. Even as artists, you know, sort of before we can put something out there, we'll have these thousands of voices in our heads saying these things. I think we need to just trust people and trust audiences to be far more intelligent and evolve than we believe them to be. And if we really do have that faith in audiences, I have found, at least in my personal journey, that it's always been received. Anything that I wanted to say, no one has criticized it. No one has said, what is she doing? Why is she taking the traditional definition of Sufism and why is she making it her own? Why is she contemporarizing it? I have just been received with love, whether it's been at the Sydney Opera House or whether it's been, you know, in the most traditional space in, you know, it can be anywhere. And people have just said, you know, we came with a preconceived notion, but we've accepted what you've said because what you said really resonated with us. And I think very importantly, and I say this to a lot of younger musicians or any artist, I say that if you go out there and you tell your truth and then no matter what that truth is, is even if it's slightly flawed, even if it's not the same truth that someone else believes in, I think it will be heard and it will touch someone because it's your truth to tell and it's your unique story. So that's all I believe as an artist. I believe it's our responsibility to tell the truth through our art as music. I believe we have to be the truth tellers of society. We have to use our voices to make a difference and to be the conscience in many ways of society. I think it's a very important point that you raise that audience, you know, the audience is open to ideas. We just assume at times that they may not like something, but they are open to, you know, trying new things. Also, that bit about youngsters today, you know, are they drawn towards this genre? What are you reading on that? Again, I've had some amazing experiences. I've performed in colleges, I've performed in schools. I at the other day, I bumped into someone on the street who said, ma'am, you came to my school and performed. And I was so moved by what you said about equality and humanity and acceptance and Sufism that, you know, it's really impacted me and that he stopped me on the street to say hello. So, you know, I think, again, we have to believe that even the youngsters are far more involved than we give them credit for. You can't keep. And the fact is because everybody keeps feeding them so much of the same thing, because it's safer. You have, I think they themselves are excited when they hear something new and something slightly off the beaten path, slightly different and something that makes them think also, Rohil, I really think music is not just for entertainment. I think any art form must make you think, it must make, it must touch you at the core and make you go back and dwell on it a little bit, you know, move you in a way that otherwise what is the point of art, really? You're giving me the headline material in this. What is the point of art? I have three, we have three questions. Overall, one would be asked by my colleague. I'll call her shortly on screen, but I want to ask you this question about how does Sufi music, you know, kind of find its due place? Is it, what are the bigger challenges in this genre? I mean, when it comes to, for example, sponsorships, you know, doing the concerts, how is the market right now on that front? So I think the biggest challenge in India in general for any music that's not Bollywood is the challenge of sponsorships, right? Because a lot of sponsors believe, let's just get a big Bollywood name and it'll sell tickets or it'll give our brand the visibility that it needs. And, you know, it's the easy way out and agreed in many ways. Yes, it is. Because obviously Bollywood has the ability to reach the masses, which perhaps more niche music doesn't. But that being said, I do also believe it's the responsibility of larger corporates to be patrons of the arts. And it's it's therefore they need to understand that India is not just Bollywood. India is just this incredible treasure of different genres and forms of music, you know, whether it's the folk music and we have our folk music isn't on also just one kind of folk music. I mean, you have the folk music of Punjab, of Rajasthan, of the south, of the east, of the west. It's all so different, right? And we must as responsible citizens, responsible, you know, treasurers of this of this wealth that we have, we must give some of our funds as corporates. I mean, this is my plea to corporates that you must give some of these funds to promote to nurture these forms of music as well. Because I have not seen someone who goes to Rajasthan, for example, and doesn't enjoy folk music, you know, individually, everyone will enjoy it. So then why not give more platforms to that Rajasthani folk music or to Punjabi folk music or to music from Bengal? You know, so I think it is the responsibility of corporates to help nurture this music so that the subsequent generations of those of those people who are of the skilled musicians and subsequent generations continue to take up this path because if they find that there's not enough money in it or they can't make their livelihoods of it, then this will just die out and that is something we really don't want to lose because it's come over years of evolution. It's been an oral tradition and it has to be bound to stay alive. I think coming to your other question, not just about sponsor, you asked about sponsorship and the overall challenges are just I think individually as musicians, it's an overall challenge in general for any musician to not follow the easier path, right? Everybody, not just yourself. Sometimes you'll think, oh, God, shall I just do the easy thing, the more popular song because everyone will like it, shall I just do a cover version? And I'm talking about a lot of youngsters who might want to do this. But I think that and that's the easy way out because you know, you'll get that many views, you might get famous, you might get that live concert to do. But I think the most important thing, at least for me, it's always been is that I know that I personally want to be true to what I feel. I want to be true to who I am. So for me, my music, my art is not different from who Sonam Kaldra as a person is. I mean, if you'll see my music, it reflects who I am and all of my beliefs. So for me, it's never been challenging. I think because I just have known that there has to be no disparity between who I am, what I feel and what I communicate through my music. And those challenges for me personally have been whether it's been a struggle of your not enough, perhaps, you know, you don't get called to as many concerts, maybe as you like. But I think I go to sleep really satisfied, really in the knowledge that I am following my true path. So that's not been a challenge other than that. The other challenges, the other struggles, so a lot of working hard, those are things I personally, I mean, and I get laughed at by my friends. I love working hard. I just love the struggle and I love the challenge. And I remember that there was a lady who called me many years ago, asking for advice for her daughter. And she said, you know, Sodomji, and they were from a wealthy family. And they said, we don't want our child to struggle. So, you know, can you tell us how we can help her out?  Because it's only through the struggle that you will understand the value of what you create. And you will be pushed to create more if you struggle. And I mean, I often use this quote. And I remember telling that young girl's mother as well, I said, the wound is the place the light enters you, which is what Rumi says. And until you see darkness, you will never see the light. Until you struggle on that uphill climb, you won't enjoy the summit. So, I love the struggle. I'm glad there are challenges. Life would be boring without challenges. And the challenges push us to evolve, to create, to find new ways to stay relevant and to keep on reinventing ourselves. Right. Very profound, very profound. I want to bring in my colleague, Rojasvi, who has a question for you. Hi, Rojasvi. Hello to everybody. Good morning. Good morning. It's a hi, Sonu Ma. I'm Rojasvi Kappu from Louday's Not In. So, I would like to ask you regarding... So, these days, independent music and independent industry is flourishing. And so, can you comment on the landscape of how independent music industry is flourishing and what challenges independent artists face? So, I think Rohil and I were talking about this before you joined the call. I think it's been very exciting for independent artists, thanks to the advent of social media, of independent release platforms.  Now, you don't need a record label. You don't need them. You can just literally be sitting in your home and release a song. And of course, now with technology, you can even record that song at home. You can mix it yourself. And what's been wonderful is that so many independent musicians, younger musicians, have made themselves comfortable with this technology. They've taught it to themselves. I think during Covid, all of us learned things in these two years that we never thought we would learn. And as a result, you can produce your music. You can compose it at home. You can produce it at home. And you can release it from homes. You never literally have to leave your home. And you will still, with the help of Instagram, with the help of the algorithms of Reels or whether even, whether you can boost a post on Instagram, on YouTube, with SEOs. You know, you can push your music out there so you can be your own marketing person as well. And that's also what I was saying to Rohail earlier, is that now artists can no longer just be artists. They have to be their own managers, their own marketing people. And in some ways, it's a really good thing because who knows your music better than you. Who knows where you wanted to reach, who you wanted to touch. So that way it's been absolutely fantastic. The challenge, however, is it's also very cluttered as a result of this, right? There was the old days where there would be one album release of Shubha Mudgal and everybody knew about it or Amjad Ali Khasab's album and everybody knew about it, right? So when Shubha Mudgal released an album, people would be like waiting for that album or similarly Amjad Ali Khasab or Pandit Chipp Kumar Sharma, you know, but now every day they're like, I don't know how many songs I don't think we can keep track of how many independent musicians release a song every day. But that being said, it's I think from the point of view of the independent musician, there is no better time than now to be an independent musician because you have you have autonomy, you have freedom, you have audiences. And you can on Instagram Reels, even if somebody uses your music for a reel, and if that reel happens to go viral, your music is viral and you suddenly from, you know, not being known and having maybe 200 followers overnight, you can have 20,000 followers or more. So it's the best time to be a musician. People are also willing to do because because of the clutter, because of the fact that there's so much sameness, people are also Roheel coming back to a question, which is just, or just just this question has made me think this that because of the clutter, I think if you do something different, if you do happen to do something different, the chance of you getting noticed is even better. So I think it's very exciting because, yes, there's a lot of sameness that's happening. But then there are some people who are breaking the clutter by trying to be slightly different. So I think it's a very good time. I think it's less challenging now to be honest than it ever was. It was more challenging when you needed to find a record label. You needed to get that interview and say, Sir, please listen to my music. You could leave your music with a record, you know, an artist and repertoire manager, and he may probably never get a chance to even listen to it. And you would have had no way of knowing because you had only that one interview. So I think it's this, it's an amazing time to be an independent creator, to be an independent musician. You don't, you no longer have a middleman. And that's really, really exciting for anyone, you know. Wonderful. Very, very awesome. Can you sing two lines of your favorite album? I don't do that. I'm so sorry, but I'm going to ask you if you would play it. And it's, you know, just when someone asks me what my favorite album is, it's always hard for me to say all my favorite song. Pick your own. Yeah, of my own only. But it's like asking someone to choose who your favorite child is. And you know, it's hard because each one is a labor of love. Each one has so many hours of blood, sweat, tears, happiness, ecstasy, sorrow, you know, so many different backstories and so much that's gone into making each song. But I will ask you to perhaps play at the end of this interview, play or maybe at the beginning of one interview, the interview could play a little bit of Man Manam, which was a song I created for Coke Studio, this song I created for Coke Studio. And I think it was challenging for me, you know, Rohil, because I had to choose. Again, I chose, shall I do the song? Shall I do a Punjabi song, which everyone will understand? Shall I compose a Punjabi song? Or shall I compose a song in Farsi, which no one will understand? And somehow, even though everyone was like, just do the Punjabi song, everyone will get it, it'll be easier. I chose to go with the Farsi song because I don't know, I trusted my gut. And I think that's one thing that most artists and I think everyone, but perhaps artists even more are born with because we're slightly more in tune or maybe more intuitive or in tune with our feelings, in tune also when we sing, hopefully, but in tune with our feelings, we're more intuitive. So I think we're all born with a GPS. And we just have to stop and listen to our own internal GPS, which will tell us what the right thing to do for us is at the time. And I just had to trust my gut and I went with Man Manam, which like I said, if I tell you the words or just we wouldn't understand them, they Ashike Be Khabar Manam, Man Manam, Na Man Manam, which really means it's so beautiful. It means I'm so lost in the love of the beloved that I am in this world, yet I am not. And it was the last verse in this particular song, this column that I wanted to compose that really touched me, which is why I wanted to compose the song. And it says, Isai Maria me Manam, Hemadeh Hashmi Manam, which means Marys Christ, am I, I am the child of Mary, and I am Ahmed of Hashem, I am of Ali. And I always share my mother's couplet, which again describes why I did the Sufi Gospel Project. And I found something my mother had written after I created the Sufi Gospel Project just a few days after I did my first show.  And she had written, Guru mere saath kade hai, gobind yahi to hain, Allah bhi maujood hai yahaan, to kaun kahaan se hai, if my Guru is standing beside me and gobind too is by my side, if Allah too is present here, then whose child am I? And I think for me, I just knew that this is the message that I wanted to put out with a large platform like Koch Studio of who I am, what spirituality, what humanity, what a world without religions and labels means to me, you know, religion is fine if it's about faith. The minute it becomes divisive to me, that's not okay personally. So that became the first song that I put out on Koch Studio. The last song that I will ask you to end with is a song of great joy. It's a celebration and it's about celebrating much the same thing where Baba Bullisha says it's a kalam by Baba Bullisha which I composed where he says, ki mere Guru ne mujhe ek nupta padhaya hai, my teacher has taught me a wonderful lesson, ki mere kaba, mere kibla, mere masjid, mere mandir, kisi char diwari mein nahi. My temple, my shrine, my church, my mosque is not within the four walls of a building, it's in the walls of my heart and in the walls of the heart of the person next to me. And now that I have this knowledge, I will wear my ghumrus and I will dance because God is in everyone and everywhere around me. So you can end with that. But just also just to discuss what we were saying with Rohail earlier about me personally wanting my music to have a message even when CAA was happening and there was so much unrest and unhappiness in the country, you know, and there was so much divisiveness. Even then when I sang my version of Hamdei Kinge, which I coupled with Rabindranath Tagore's a recitation of Rabindranath Tagore's where the mind is without fear and the head is held high and he talks of a world again, a country which upholds its values of secularism. And he says into that heaven of freedom, my father let my country away. Even there I have done whenever I use my music, I'm not shouting at you. I'm not forcing my views down your throat. I'm not preaching at you. I'm just asking you to listen. And I hope that in asking you to listen with kindness, I will be able to create a mind shift. I will be able to make you empathize with my what I'm saying and with the person next to you and perhaps their beliefs. So I'm asking not for tolerance as I always say through the music. I'm asking for acceptance of each person as unique individual having their own beliefs and us just learning to respect them. So again, coming back to Sufiism, acceptance of all humanity. And that's all I want to say through my music. Wonderful, wonderful. Very profound. Thank you. My final question about, you know, one is what is your advice to youngsters you know, who are starting their music career in music and also your upcoming music projects. So my advice to youngsters and is that really, there's no shortcut. Work hard.  Be obsessed with what you do. Be obsessed with music. Don't expect it to come to you. Don't believe that it's all about luck. Yes, to some degree, of course, luck plays a part in everyone's lives. But luck won't come to you if you don't work hard. It's when you work hard that perhaps Lady Luck will also see that you're working hard. You know, I do believe that there are forces watching you and that if you work, get in a minute cup, I'll meet you and it's such a true adage that you must work hard. There's no shortcut. You'll get better. You'll improve your skill. And if you improve your skill, you will get hard. Chances are if you are doing something skillfully, you will be appreciated. So that's how you create the path. That's how you open the doors by just working hard. So that's my advice, work hard. The other piece of advice I would give youngsters is be true to yourself. Find your own unique story and your own unique voice to tell because that is also that is unstoppable. If you have your own story and your own voice, it'll be unstoppable. If you become a me too, then perhaps you'll trend for a while, but that will be a trend and it'll stay for a while. So don't follow trends blindly, listen to the greats of music, emulate them, but don't copy them. So find your own unique story to tell through your music, your own unique message. My upcoming projects, we actually have quite a lot of exciting things coming up. There's a performance that I created in 2016, which was on partition. Rohe, it was called, it is called partition stories of separation, where I talk of, it's a multidisciplinary performance. I have an actor on stage. I have myself with a few musicians on stage and I have video testimonials of those people who survived partition. And that same video screen then goes on to talk of messages of peace and the way forward. But that performance has been revived. So we're doing a lot of those performances actively. We've traveled a lot with it also because this year marks 75 years since the partition of India. It's an exciting performance for me because I also have a visual artist that I worked with. So, you know, we brought all the arts together. We bought theater, we brought video, we brought graphic design and we brought music together. All of the things that I'm very passionate about, I've actually, I don't know if you know this about me, but I've acted in the theater for a long time. I won a national award. So I mean, I worked hard in the theater, but I also went to art school and I trained to be a graphic designer. So you know, there's that. And I worked when I worked in advertising, I worked a lot on film. So it brought all of my loves together and hence created a sort of multidisciplinary performance and I've got the best people to work with me whether it's Gopika Trophla, who's a visual artist, Salima Raza and Rutika Channa, the actors. And of course I've worked with the Partition Archive 1947 Partition Archive, which is a US based organization that has collected these oral histories of survivors. So we brought it all together. The album releases soon. We've had a rough release because obviously when we showcased it for the first time that was a soft release, but the formal release songs of separation comes out this year. Then there is another Sufi album that's coming out. There is a Persian album of just songs that I've composed in Persian coming out. And also I got this year. I was very lucky. I got, I mean, very honored and to be invited to be part of the Recording Academy, the Grammy Recording Academy. So we're prepping for our Grammy entries next year. God willing, of course, we're prepping the rest you leave to the universe and you hope and pray that the universe guides you in the right way. But yeah, so it's a year of a lot of work. And as I said to earlier, I'm so excited because I love hard work. So I love the fact that I'm going to be awake all night thinking of what to do and that my mind will be constantly in a buzz. So I love that. That's wonderful. And you know it's such an inspiration to talk to someone who believes in this. You know, in today's times when a lot of artists are looking for shortcuts, but really wonderful talking to you and learning a lot of things. And we'll be releasing this episode very soon. Thank you so much, Sonamji, for taking out time and talking to us. May I please say thank you Royal for such thoughtful questions. They were really they were really it was a wonderful, wonderful discussion with you and it's rare to have someone who actually spent so much time understanding the artist and asking such insightful and thoughtful questions. So thank you so much for this. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you.


What's going on everyone? Sam here with late in sports cards ripping and I got changed to the breakdown 20 22 penini national treasures football hobby four box full case break number 81 random division style There's a look at again at your results again. Thank you to everybody taking a spot in this we had four divisions left After the last break ended and we got this sold out. I appreciate it more than anything. Thank you all so much Find these on the website and the link in chat. Let's do it again guys. Just five to go and NT tiered That's the last break of the night We sell that out. We're done. We get to personals And we rock and roll for that way. Here we go NT time. Let's do it NT tiered five to go last break of the night last break spots available.  We've got a Treasured rookies to 99 Romeo Dobbs NFC north NFC north you may have a game this week. He's a stud dude. I wanted him in fantasy That's right. He is to 49 Brian Dawkins NFC east I believe I think that's on every Dawkins, but I'm gonna send an empty box and wrapper just in case with the NFC east NFC east again that is going to be a CD lamb sunday treasures dual jersey 10 of 99 31 of 35 afc south that is John matchy the third Good to see him back and ready to go John matchy got 91 of 99 tasam hill NFC south by way of the saints Phillip n with a tiered spot Down to four four to go and tiered everybody. Let's go AFC north Lamar mark Andrews jk Dobbins Oh, his dog's a questionable tomorrow. Oh, that's not great way to go Donny. What a what a spread misinformation across the internet There's a Kirk cousins on the material treasures five of 49 going to the NFC north That's fair I suppose That is fair This is dope Uh NFC south that is going to be an archie manning 18 of 25 congrats on that NFC south nice one there Two of 25 That is going to be a joe nameth Uh afc east congrats on that broadway joe Player worn jersey audio That's nasty. Oh, it's one off jersey number four of 25 rpa drake london go to the NFC south congrats to Mark m. There you go, buddy. That was a ridder. We would have had here That's true. Watch now pull a ridder rpa. It'll be like five of them and or something Be like swap them dude swap them All right, again, this is NFC east, right? I want to say for the Dawkins this box. Yeah What's up, so you better get that right Donny Don't want to hear it Four to go everybody Four to go Four to go Four to go Since the managing someone with the game retake this is for taco Who's this loser? Who's this bum? Oh Really? Miss cutting it. Come on Try and i'm trying be be stronger than the plastic I'm trying four to go and tiered everybody. Philip. Thank you for taking a spot buddy. I appreciate that Ryan Tannehill to 99 AFC south AFC south followed by also is eddie george going to the AFC south that time to 35 10 of 35 Be the first three game opener losing streak under bellichick. Wow 19 of 25 is christian watson for the packers. Where's for us? I know right NFC north again, mr. Jared gough 40 of 49 we're Spencer Spencer would uh, you're like that one Just come in jared gough thumbs up Again four to go last break of the night is tiered nt bull case Again every spot you take gets you two teams, donny It's gonna be one of the top 16 teams two teams and one team from the bottom bottom 16 He gets you too. Wow. That's crazy. I wish I had two teams That is going to be a Zach wilson and garret wilson the wilson's to 99 AFC east jersey and jersey Uh player warm wilson 80 of 99 that is going to be a jj watts for the cardinals NFC west Century materials nice one there. It's gonna be weird seeing him not in the FL Like not that he made a huge like difference the last couple of years, but still it's always like, oh jj watt jj watt He's a big like personality. Yeah 7 of 49 NFC east john riggins notable nicknames diesel. That's awesome Congrats on that NFC east That's cool for the AFC west That is wow, that's big right now 24 of 99 orlando brown. That's big That is going to be one of one NFC north Jordan love Oh, wow. Yeah Laundry tag second year. No third year Laundry tag patch auto wow That is going to philip m. Congrats philip. What a time to get that man, right day before the season jordan love comes out in slings, dude And then another hollow silver rpa 6 to 25 sauce gardener AFC east michael s with that last spot mojo Picking up a huge sauce gardener. Congrats, buddy 6 to 25 on the sauce That's my favorite so is it really wow no actually my favorite's been um The song is growing on me, uh Which one the song the song is growing on you really what's the It's the one that actually like Shocked there is one to be honest with you. I'm like, okay. There's one that I can tolerate all right fair that guy fair Put it that way. There's a redemption in this one. We've got a Uh, joe nameth to 99. I'll think of it later that works And a erin rogers to 25 7 to 25 NFC north Uh nice one here is going to be a Kurt Warner isaac bruce tory holt marshal fulks 71 of 99 going to the NFC west Oh man imagine if that was autos Warner and fulke player warned. That'd be sick, dude I'd love that that card. That's really that'd be really cool Uh air looms that is going to be joe thomas 7 to 25 player warned nice one there afc north On the greatest to ever do it Mr. Joe thomas We've got a framed fabric that is raheem moester 27 of 49 afc, um east afc east 39 of 49 Jay herbo, justin herbert Going to the afc west Justin hoibut Got 18 of 49 that is kyler gordon rookie auto nice one there congrats to the NFC north Those those orange helmets for the bears are kind of hard.  I do For to go untiered everybody for to go That is it. That is all let's get that sold out last break of the night for to go That is going to be a diante johnson Uh 34 49 afc north a 27 of 85. That is tray mc bride Nice one there on the jersey number NFC west tray mc bride Very solid very solid. We'll take it. We'll take it. We'll rpa actually Then crossover rookie patch autograph chris olave going to the NFC south mark m congrats my friend. That's awesome Gotta love olave I love olave garden right someone that's another one. I can't take credit for somebody else Yeah, right I didn't come up with it, right fair fair All right, let's see. Come on. Wait. Let's see qd come out of this You didn't come up with the bedbath? I did not now I guess it's just whatever you make whatever I don't come up with. Well, whatever it makes up. Thanks. Yeah Appreciate that buddy Rough crowd dude. My god We've got a dairy canry to 50 modern masters afc south.  You look at the color match on this afc west davante adams one of 20 on the midnight that Fire dude, that does look really good actually. That's kind of crazy We've got nfc north that is going to be a adan hutchinson jameson williams dual rookie jerseys One of 49 We've got a jonathan taylor that is sunday treasurer's eight of 99 afc south player warn Give me a second laying. I'll tell you. Yeah, okay I pulled the rookie one-of-one treasure chest out of this And then I pulled one of the wind of all the starting quarterbacks. Uh, just jersey pieces I pulled the one-on-one auto of all the rookies That is a 100 for net 10 of 49 play one Yeah, I was like back to back days. I was ripping nt. We pulled those those knots, bro Uh, that is going to be a Terry mclauren scary terry. Ah on the two color patch nice one there nfc east one-of-one printing plate 101 plate scary terry Field pass that is a um Skymore two of 25 afc west Most likely sr ko All right, so on there you've got all pro signatures cordial paterson 21 of 49 for the nfc south nfc south Uh, that is going to be horizontal rpa. We've got skymore 34 of 99 afc west again afc west 34 of 99 And last card of the break nfc west Kenneth walker 12 of 99 On the crossover rpa. Congrats on that nfc west shawn. There you go, buddy Very nice one there. Yeah And that is empty let's do a recap Again guys just four to go on nt tiered Four to go. I will stay here until we sell it for sure Uh, all right. We've got scary terry Leonard fornette johnton taylor aiden hutchinson jameson williams a herbert joe thomas raheem moester Uh quad for the rams jj watt zach wilson garret wilson, uh jared golf a christian watson Uh triple for the ravens tasam hill john mechie and cd lamb We've got autos now are going to be skymore cordial paterson skymore again Deontay johnson collard gordon orlando brown john riggens joe nameth archie manning and kurt cousins some cool quarterbacks in there I love this set right here The material treasures autos Those are clean And our mags cards. Hell, yeah, I forgot about I thought the 101 training pride 285 on the jersey number rpa parallel nfc west We had nfc south crossover rpa redemption is chris olave We had a kenneth walker nfc west crossover to 99. So this is what the olave will look like right here Um drake london 425 on the track everybody Nice one there hollow silver another hollow silver 6 to 25 sauce gardener Congrats afc east. That's awesome. And then how about a one of one j heart jordan love Going to the nfc north that'll do it for the break everyone. Thanks again for the fill just four to go on tiered nc. Let's fill it up


Baa, kwa wana playa wagem, wata saki duwes timingi sana juu. Itch mai take us a minute. Hei. Enu siya choka natu wja cheza. Sindi ya buwana. Hei rei, area ta wuja seba. Tunde, tunde, nuna, tunde, eto haze toe market. Kuja tu, kuja tu. Misima, tunde toe market. Eh, sindi wutu toe gari kwa sa. Alis, now adibi hapi jinge kwa. You see? Enu ya, aso, gemela ya tu, itch amaze. I don't know if you know what amaze is, bata ni. Yes, sujuvlenda. Explain wizuribu wana. Maze, maze. Ni tu anestahadu wizumia kaka. Ili kwa kagira mati nira? Kangaru. Kangaru, kama bado alik saydi. Alik saydi, but sujuvlenda describile. But mez ni, like you have to take a challenge ku pita pita makona. That's. Thank you. In my head, na juwile amaze ni. I didn't visualize. Yes, I can visualize, but I can't say it. Amaze mihi. Happens, it happens. Yes. Yes, so, leo amaze yetu. So na juwa amaze, typically amaze, wuna kwa ngandani amaze. Kus it's big. You know? You're supposed to be in the amaze. But now, since amaze yetu ni kwa amaze. Atatua, leze, amaze it's a path whereby I have to go through. Uma waja ni. Uma go livea wata na wuna juwa defi. You have to find your way to get out of the other side. So sa apenye wana leze, dekona atatu nuk saydi apu. So sa how to allow, what you're about to do. So sa na wana leze apu on the game. I think they understand. So, meze yetu, we are finding our way, but we are not using our bodies, we are using our breath, not breath, but breath. So English cuisine is bad. How do you even say we are using our breath? But we are not using it. Meze wuna kwa ngandani amaze. Yes, as you know, they are locked after power. But so sa si siya tu te. Meze yetu ni meza. So sa hi tuna pulizia? Tuna puliza. Tuna puliza. Tuna puliza. Tuna puliza, hi meza npa kwa umalize. So yahuhaing? Yes, so yahuhaing. When you look at it, well, that's the game liberator. Snake. Snake and Lana. I think now you have the rough point. So niku pitiwa yuza makona yuza. Uto kia paletu. So utanda mania na. He led his first. He garasi. Anyway. So, how long is it? Uki kwa siya. No, we ina timing. Uki kwa siya ifi ume band. I have to record this one. Ume band. Kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa ume band. Ume band. Toka njiya meze yetu. So ni apu nasanya. Aya. Muya na tawakonza. Muya na band maramingi. Ume atas jika kuna matabanita baitiwe. So, let's just. Kwa shuwa? Ya, so. Asha guza laimi? Ajatoka. Oh, okay. Ajatoka. Ajatoka. That is one. Shuali. This thing is not round. It is round. It is moving. Basi round round. Ipanya ikwe rounda. Chatu ni nia chananaaya. Aya. Band. Really? Yes. Iwali ni? Iwas kapa. You were close. That's your close. Okay, not. But umena malikidomba. Ibu ajoa jai pulizamoto ushaago. Pulizi, by the way pulizia. Kwa kwa lene, bad. Ok, you see. Ok. Maybe I can go... Yes.. You have to start from the same note. Ok. ok. I am Cuba abo. I'm struggling because of the situation Okay Ya, kwa nambaya I need to control when the dog is born Wait, wait, wait I just talk to him I can't I just talk to him I just talk to him Okay I know what he's going through for me I'm not sure I'm not sure I'll tell you later Okay, let's move this up Go to the corner Okay I can't move it I can't move it There we go Oh, nice Give me a second I'll show you I'll show you I'll show you You can look it up You can look it up I'll show I'll show you Nice You can go back I can't go back I'll cross I'm going to let the fellas down buwana, I do not want the fellas... No it's you band, wait what's your show off buwana? I'm showing off.  A tule se ma see upuza motto. Prodysa see god. I'm a band, I'm happy. I think it's three. Tukimaliza mo ya na maza kwanza? Game in Asia po. Two or three times. Bwana rob wana. Kwa nambaya this trust you mi, it's not as easy as it looks. I'm about to shut this down. I'm about to shut this down. Tukimaliza game in Asia. Za hoj. Kwa ni me? I'm running out of breath. Za toka. Tukimaliza. She's sniffing. I'm a band, I'm a chini. I say look who's here. Misha ime. A pa na this is Misha. I don't have a mic, but I'm... Mic drop. I'm a bald drop. Fellas I'm sorry. Apareli I need to get back to the gym. Mic drop. Up top mic. I don't do it anymore. You're not doing it? We are not doing it in Naskiawi. We are not doing it in Naskiawi. For now Naskiawi? Nasziawe. Zimieshikawwe. Before we started in Nasziawe. Sorry for some comments. We can sample. Before... We sample. Kupuja wa mamii youtube Mola Mweli tuwa pakusina Kwa kwa? Mouwa Una mera ingapu mwenisha na nesha Mweli tuwa pakusina Kwa basaku na mwa? thriving may think embo tuned in embu university I can't turn on to, I can't turn on to any other station, the best still following. But I'm done by Isakini. But I'm done by Isakini. Isakini, the best show wana. Mambua okokeni. I'm done by Isakini. I'm done by Isakini. Mambua okokeni. I'm done by Isakini. I'm done by Isakini. I'm done by Isakini. Mambua okokeni. I got a few from my Facebook. Yes, John Gitombi na sama handy on Mbchiki. I said, Fire, we have Katelminia. I said, Nesh play for me. Baby, Iby boys. Ok, DJ wiki scratch. Party rider. Why she repreciates. She has a tuning from Kirinaga. And she says, don't buy who you are. What are your choices? I'm no game, you have the spoils. Yes, na samiko na sama moi baraks al dorat watching, shu ikodopest. Kato kei ii the second asama ukodzio bro nipe, enia awiko, amami Mr. Sid featuring awiko. Mzi ngu adepo piya eh, koni ngu atu adepo ni wengi aze na puche kiki kibi, kibi austi asama mediji no mamoto. Sama awero asama Pamodza na piya Darius Pamodza. John Githomba asama next atom manze ata muninvite kwa sho na aze mce yo request awa na aze Haifsa na sasa awa. Stabboonga apale DM. Stabboi na kuche kiki piya na nani mwingi na nani mwingi na hoels hoels ni manche. It is loading. Anyway, Mr. Jallika mani baksa awa. Producer, allow me to read this one, just one. Kani akuni chongu asama. So, Olesipoi Junior anase ma'am on my Instagram. Nyaga kindly na wapenda tu sana my friend. Do this. Umpe DJ Nesh, he nambayangu. Tell him to call. Aku GM Bozi. Cause, Kinkinsli. And I want to prove that na wapenda sana hata, kamam jenda kuchinja mkule wote na wapenda tu burea. Ana awa. Ako api. Y-254. Tu mami ma'ali penyu wuko. Olesipoi Junior. Just DM me. Kajadu bhezi. Kajadu. Just DM me. We'll talk. Mi sana gaishida. Ni ni team Y-254, I think. Ni team Y-254. Sawa. Aina nama ma. Nebo tu. Chagam ken na. Sawa. Tukafunga.


It was at Parsons School of Design that I was then recruited by Henry Dreyfus Industrial Design and my career was off and running. It was an exciting time. It was when manufacturers went to industrial designers in order to fashion their products. I was chosen to be part of a team that did airplanes, sewing machines, the Polaroid Camera. I designed automotive interiors and John Bear tractors. We did a snowmobile for American Machine and Foundry and we did telephones of all sorts for Bell Labs. When Henry Dreyfus was doing the symbol dictionary, he relied on my ability to instantaneously look at something to see whether or not it was telling the right story. I felt so particularly vindicated for my dyslexia.