There are nine present. Okay, and we'll start out with the Pudge of Allegiance Okay, do we have anyone for public form the sport? We do not okay, okay Start right out with the discussion and Chad Well, thank you older person Decker and committee of the whole so we're here to Pick up the discussion on the affordable housing study and for those of you that are in board docks the affordable housing study In a reduced size format is attached to this document So you should be able to see that document if you care to dig into these Slides a little bit deeper as we leave from here But those that were on the previous the old council have seen a presentation. We're not doing the same presentation today We're going to dive deeper into the results of the housing affordable housing study And the next steps and what we believe some of the challenges are With this whole kind of concept on affordable housing So on this chart some of these the first six or so slides of this presentation are a recap of what was that's the findings in the affordable housing study so those that are Joining us new we're going to try to bring you up to speed in a couple slides to the ones that were on the council before Just so you can you guys are kind of at the level playing field when we move forward So what we have here is a recap of the findings of the previous study and the age cohort projections by the county So what you'll see from here from this map from this diagram is that the green and the The yellow well the yellow line is the 35 to 54 age bracket From 20 2010 through 2040 the green is the 65 to 84 So you're seeing a significant increase in that population in the county as we move forward With the younger generations kind of leveling off or decreasing When we look at the population the median household income and the per capita income You can see from the chart on the left that the city of shabuagan is the lowest in the county for Median household income at about 48,313 dollars and the per capita income at 24,074 dollars When you compare that across the City of Plymouth shabuagan falls village of kohler and the county You know, we have the lower income households primarily centered in the central city that takes down our overall medium income when you look at the chart on the right you can see that the really the only This the city of shabuagan is the only Community over that course of 2010 through 2020 that saw a population decline All of the surrounding areas have seen a population increase Another indicator to look at is building permits. So this chart shows building permits between 2015 and 2020 The chart on the left shows the single family housing units in blue and the duplex units in orange From 2015 through 2020, which you can see is that we've built very few single family homes Primarily due to the fact that we don't have a land a lot of land available for subdivisions We a few years 2016 17 and 20 developed a lot of duplexes These aren't the typical duplexes that you're thinking of where you have two units side by side. These are duplexes like Um These would be considered developments like the portscape apartments on south pier or the kingsbury apartments So they develop those as duplexes even though they're multiple units in one building It's a way around getting around some requirements within the commercial building code for new houses So when they take out permits that they took out two family permits So that's where you see the difference with the duplex versus a typical duplex that you would see with a side by side Unit when we look at the chart on the right This is showing in blue the multiple apartments And then the multiple condos and what you can see is you know every year during that five year or so span There's been a number of new apartments that have come online particularly in the 2019 and 2020 time frame And then we had a slow increase in some additional condo units. So Prior to that there wasn't a lot of condo development from the time we came out of the recession in around 2012 Until that time and before that even to 2007 The chart on the bottom is a figure from the report that total shows the total housing units by type for shabuagan county As a whole and you can see how aggressive development of housing units in 1990 through 2008 when the recession hit We slumped off and there's been a little bit of pickup in 2015 and in To present but not at anywhere near the levels that Had been done previously Another indicator to look at is rental unit vacancies So the a typical healthy vacancy rate for rental units is between five and seven percent A vacancy rate around five to seven percent provides an Appropriate balance between supply and demand and gives enough units to provide choices You can see where the city of shabuagan is sitting. This is data as of december 31st 2020. We're at 3.3 percent So even though we keep hearing we've overbuilt apartments and we've overbuilt housing We're nowhere near where we need to be to be in a healthy vacancy level to give Opportunity within the market and we'll talk about that more as we move forward because we're hearing that from our employers That are saying that if if they can't start filling positions in having housing They're going to be looking other places to invest their Expansion dollars. So we want to continue to stay competitive on that front When we look at the demand projections out of the study. So the Chart on the left the rental units Um is is your typical rental unit? It could be affordable. It could be market rate But the projection is a 401 units to 1,023 units by 2030 That's around 40 to 100 units per year You can see the breakdown in the chart of the different rents based in the different units that are reflective of that under the owner occupied units its Owner occupied housing particularly 325 to 715 units by 2030 or 30 to 72 new units per year Um, and this is ranging in a value from around 129,000 up to 234,000 When we look on the right side of the chart, this is really focusing on senior housing And one of the findings that came out in the study is the fact that we have built very little senior housing So housing dedicated for people 55 and older um, the top one the senior independent living 1,005 subsidized units and 284 market rate units The asterisks represent the fact that there is really no count on what the current numbers of senior housing units Independent living units are in the city. So there was no way of factoring in existing So this is projecting basically new of what's required and then senior assisted living units 196 by 2030 So between the senior and the rental and the owner occupied you can see that there's a significant need for a lot more units So this chart is showing you the gross domestic product versus the residential development that has happened to date So the blue line is the city of shabuigan's gross domestic product starting in 2008 through 2019 In comparison to the city of fondillac So we just wanted to have an indicator of the way the economy has been going and the gross domestic product is a good way of doing that Um, however, you can see in the city of shabuigan. It's been significantly more aggressive than the city of fondillac We chose the city of fondillac because their population and demographics are very similar to The city of shabuigan and when you look at the different Colors on the chart on the left you can see that the affordable is represented by 401 units And that would be the badger state lofts the oscar project Which is under construction today and the washington school apartments The market rate equates to about 495 units And then condominium units equates to about 36 units. So when you look at the the chart in the last Um five to six years almost 162 million dollars of new housing has been developed With and at that equated to about 950 Units when we look and i'm not going to go through each of the individual properties But overall the majority of them are 100 full The couple of most recent ones that open badger state loss, which is the former tannery is about 60 full Oscar as I mentioned is under construction kingsbury village is about 70 full South pier river front condos is 98 percent. They have one unit. I think left to sell The lux out on color memorial drive is at 90 percent And the waters edge condominium complex is about 50 percent So the rest of them are running at the rest of the housing developments are all running at 100 occupancy So when you look at the numbers, you know, the the city has been very aggressive and we've been very aggressive in building a mix of housing units both affordable and market rates. So You know the the oscar project coming on board will be the city's largest at 240 Units with a value of about 47 million dollars But there's definitely demand in the market to fill those units and then additional units from there So we hear a lot about the fact that we need more units in the range of four to five to six hundred dollars And this chart is showing you the fair market rental rates of shabuigan from 1983 through 2001 And the fair market rental rates is a is a thing that the federal government uses when they're going to establish Fair market rents for programs that they federally fund like the housing choice voucher program and the section eight funding program So these numbers are based on A two-bedroom standard unit no luxuries in 1983. It was 283 dollars per month And in 2021 it's seven hundred and sixty nine dollars per month So when we hear from people saying well, we need more Units in the four to five hundred range, which we'll talk about shortly the challenge with current construction costs and what that Is going to do to the cost of building these But when we talk about the four to five hundred dollar range, we're looking at rents that were in that range in 1993 Which is 30 years ago So, you know, so it's when you say we need those low Rent rates, you know that those rent rates are are quite dated from the time when we were at the three four five six hundred dollar mark So in the study the study Lays out a number of funding mechanisms To to deal with this and we're going to talk more about that today because there's some decisions that the council's going to have to Make moving forward The first one is the expanse Expanded use of the city's neighborhood revitalization fund. That was a fund that was established last year to Capture one year of revenue from tid 11, which was the washington square tid when it closed State law allows us to keep it open for one additional year and capture whatever increment In there for affordable housing. So that gave us about Seven hundred and sixty four thousand dollars give or take Facilitate the development of a workforce housing fund. We'll talk about that shortly Utilize tiff for affordable housing incentives Utilize tiff the one-year extension, which I just talked about. We did do that with the tid 11 Promote the use of federal and state low-income Housing tax credit programs. We'll talk about that Increase the use of wita 710 flex spending Increase the use of down payment assistance and co-author a bill that offers rental incentives So I think where this is going is, you know We have a couple tools in our toolbox for facilitating affordable housing developments and trying to fill gaps and performance The biggest one is tiff incentives The second biggest one is giving land away for a dollar to help keep the cost down Um or a domino fee and the third one is really the low-income tax credit programs But those are super competitive across the state And wita w h e da is the is the entity that administers those and ranks those applications and It's a very hard process to try to get funding through those programs So the the study recommended a number of recommendations The first in capacity building and communication was one establishing a housing committee Providing housing for all Networking at wita events and continue the developer summit to encourage development The items in this chart that have the red box around we're going to talk more in detail of because I believe and And Todd and I believe that this is stuff that can we can work on that we're not already doing And and that it gives us some concrete Projects to work towards under the initiatives assist and grow neighborhood associations Purchase and market city-owned redevelopment properties develop neighborhood master plans and create a tenant resource center And then under regulations allow multifamily units as permitted use Reduce setbacks create a new residential district continue the code enforcement program And continue flexibility on infrastructure requirements And then lastly under partnerships support the habitat for humanity partners for community development and other housing affordable housing providers Which most of you know we do give money towards their operations under the block grant program Continue the landlord education training program Form working groups with major employers and explore opportunities to offer on-site child care and health care facilities So when we look into the deeper dive into the study recommendations the first Um recommendation is the establishment of a housing committee The there's a number of Communities that have them we've asked the consultant to give us four of their best Recommendations for this so they gave us Madison Eau Claire Fitchburg and Middleton Um, obviously Madison has a population of 250,000 Eau Claire has a population of 68,000 Fitchburg has a population of 30,000 roughly And Middleton has a population of 20,000 We sent emails out to their respective count my respective counterparts in those Communities and we got responses back from Madison and Eau Claire We did not receive anything from Fitchburg or Middleton, but what Eau Claire said is they have a housing opportunities commission It's only been in existence for one year When we talked to the associate planner They recommended it may not be worth having a housing committee as there are barriers to education difficulties and meeting Time dedicated to preparing for the monthly meetings and time dedicated To preparing for working group meetings and facilitating those meetings and it slows down the development considerably The city of Madison Todd and I both had a conversation with them and they've had a housing strategy committee in existence for about seven years They it's taken them a number of years to understand What their role is they were originally established to provide a biannual report Of housing choices to the common council and they've recently been implementing fair housing issues The other two communities Fitchburg and Middleton did not respond although on their websites They have a housing advisory committee in Fitchburg That's used to study research and recommend policies to the council To promote affordable home ownership and rental housing And Middleton has a workforce housing committee, but it looks to be very focused on CDBG funding and allocating CDBG dollars So one of the recommendations and one of the further discussion of the committee of the whole I think is whether there's interest in Developing a another city committee that would be focused on housing So option one Would be the common council creates a new housing committee and gives a very specific focus so that we don't kind of fall into the tracks of What other communities have had An option two would be to leverage and partner with the existing Sheboygan housing coalition. This is a group of roughly Probably 30 some Organizations that meet monthly. I think and talk about housing issues within the community One idea would be to establish a subcommittee that includes affordable housing developers Relators and lenders that can discuss the challenges to overcome They could report back to the larger coalition and the city and kind of be a non-profit kind of group that focuses on housing. So um I think either one of these options is You know has potential we we want to just make sure that we don't lose track of the Expertise on the housing coalition and that they're you know, hopefully would be interested in kind of expanding what they're doing To really give them a real focus Or the option three would be to do nothing so Addressing funding challenges. I talked a lot about what it takes to build housing But really the study finding that's the most I think important on of all of them is to build one Unit of affordable housing at a break-even amount is about $1,300 per month for a one bedroom So if people are requesting rents of five six seven hundred dollars per month Um, you can see that that generates a significant gap in the performer for a month that needs To be overcome through some other funding mechanism to move this forward So, you know, it's a it's a challenge and you know people Comment about giving incentives towards these deals giving away land for free But those are all tactics that are there to try to Close that gap behind what is the market really willing to pay for these units and you know What is it costing to build these units and what I will say is that the $1,300 per month is not taken to the current construction costs of lumber That's out there as well. So that number is probably higher now than $1,300 when a two by four is A dollar a foot and then some so You know the so those are the challenge to look at so the question is is how do you fill that gap? A number of projects have taken advantage of section 42 the low-income tax credit fund. It's very competitive Um There's got to be a discussion about continuing to provide tiff dollars The a stab the enhancement of the city's neighborhood revitalization fund which we'll talk about in the next slide And then provide vacant city-owned land by selling properties at a dollar or nominal fees as an incentive towards the project The challenge there is that right now the city has very limited stock on municipally owned sites that are Developable for these types of developments particularly on the size of them and the location Another study recommendation is the enhancement of the neighborhood revitalization fund And Todd and I had the opportunity to talk to the city of madison And they were in the same boat where we are today where they knew that affordable housing Was a need in their community So five years ago they they looked to establish an alternative funding source versus relying on the section 2 competitive program So madison yearly budgets funding towards an affordable housing fund to provide developer incentives to projects The current madison fund has over 5.5 million um Sheboygan's current fund balance is about 500 000 And the recommendation that Todd asked them is you know, what would they recommend the city consider? And they recommended that the city budgeted funds to have a separate fund that could provide incentives Versus relying on the section 42 low-income tax credit fund Um, and then use those funds to bridge gaps within the project performer Another study recommendation is to purchase and market redevelopment sites as I stated before we have a very limited amount of city-owned properties So we're exploring the purchase of vacant properties in the city boundaries that are privately held That could be used for single family or multifamily And be able to provide them an nominal fee, but You also have to understand we're going to have to get some funding through the general fund to purchase properties or You know either purchase and demolish or purchase just outright land to do so because we have been very aggressive in previous developments and a lot of the additional Some a lot of the previous development that has happened has all happened on city-owned Properties so our inventory of city-owned properties is very small And the last recommendation is this forming a working group with employers so we were on a call last week with the Alliant energy advisory group and one of the comments that The president of johnsonville sausage said was that if we don't take an aggressive approach on getting more affordable and housing in general in this county that Employers like them are going to be forced to invest outside areas. So Todd will talk a little bit about the You know the job numbers that are out there and what it's going to take to get these employers to Expand here But one thing that dame county has done is they've developed this dame workforce housing investors fund which Is made up of 14 investors that have committed almost 12 million dollars to the fund Um, and it's used strictly for dame county's municipalities and communities as a incentive to bridge gaps within their housing You know their housing developments So the recommendation is to partner with the scedc to work with large major Local major employers to address this and develop some type of housing and recruitment fund at the county level that would allow municipalities and or developers another source of funding So that's it in a nutshell. I know that alder city administrator wolf. Sorry Would like to say a few words as well Thank you chad chad. Could you please go back to the slide that says review the current residential development? Oh, there you go right. Oh, yeah right there. Thank you I just wanted to kind of point out a few things to the to the council and and those listening Um, first off, I want to say that we should all be congratulating the city of shipwagon When you think of where we were back in 2008 to where we are today And on this slide chad and I chose to go back to 2008 for a for a specific reason Back in 2008 the the county The city and the county Did a young professional development team that they reached out to all of the young professionals Within the area companies within the city Within the shipwagon county The reason I picked that out specifically Is because I was one of them back in the day back in 2008. Yes mark is back in 2008 I was considered a young professional What I want everybody to remember is that we also in 2008 went into a recession So here we are businesses local businesses trying to figure out What's holding us back and how do we get out of the hole that we're in? So if you think about it and you look at it and again using fondalak as a as a baseline You can see that the the blue line dipped a little bit But then it continued to climb and what's really interesting is when you start looking at, you know 2015 to today we have a considerable amount of development When the oscar comes online, we're going to have, you know upwards of a close to a thousand apartments For our for our residents now when we think about that that's just unheard of But it's not when you saw the slide earlier. We're in the 90s That we were actually had a huge Boom when it came to apartments We've actually Filled almost every slot within the categories to choose from when you look at a through l Yeah, a through l and that's 161 Million dollars almost 162 million dollars of development um So anyway, I wanted to congratulate everybody But I also wanted to talk about some of the issues that we have We as a city continue to look at development and when we outline development we think of what we think of businesses We think of manufacturing. We think of bringing jobs to the community But back in 2008 it was identified even back then that we needed people We needed we needed more employees in our community Since 2008 and i'm willing to say this We've continued to have 2400 plus job openings year over year Pre-pandemic that were available. And what do I mean by that? That means that 2400 people could come up to shabuagon And get a job and walk in and start working We've had a deficit of employees For many many many and as marcus would say decades todd. Yes decades. We've had a deficit So when we talk about development and bringing new business to shabuagon We have a bigger problem where we need to continue to maintain and grow our existing businesses And we continue to hear about that year over year And as one of the members of the scedc for the city of shabuagon even on the executive team as as Chad had pointed out it was again voiced by multiple owners of companies in our community That they need more employees In our community so that they can not just grow but maintain what they have Pandemic has caused a lot of employees to not be working right now I know we're in the middle of the pandemic and we will get out of it But the thing is we need to as a community Look at the development of apartments and housing Just like we do Manufacturing what's the difference when the city looks at development? We look at it as a tax base bringing in revenue to the community, right? But we also look at manufacturing The same way, but we also look at manufacturing that it's going to bring in tax base It's also going to bring in revenue through different Sources of of of income It's also going to bring employees to the community that are going to buy homes if they have them And they're also going to rent apartments if we have them They're also going to go to the shops and spend money throughout the community The problem is is we talk about what comes first the chicken or the egg We've already have the the actual businesses that continue to To complain that we don't have the employees now. We're continuing to talk about housing And we need more of it. I get it that some people don't realize that We are actually doing what we said where we're going to do from 2008 and we're doing a good job of it But with the economy the way it is Even before the the pandemic We need to look at in my opinion In my recommendation to the council is that we look at development Like we do But with in regards to actual housing And when we when chad and I talked with Madison, that's what they do. They actually have funds built up To actually incentivize so when we look at development Of a manufacturer and we We get nervous about giving them land. So they'll build here Multiple multiple opportunities that chad and I've had Are looking at communities and shabuagan's one of them a great place to work live work and play But they're like, what's your unemployment rate like? Because if I can't find employees in shabuagan county, I'm not going to build in shabuagan county It's the same problem in other communities and we have so much to offer So my my recommendation Is that you know when we talk about a housing committee that we really should not recreate the wheel That let's let's work closer with the housing coalition Let's work with the scedc because we're members Let's find out what the businesses are asking for Right from the horse's mouth. Let's find out how many employees do they need What are we what are they in need of because if we lose some of our Our anchors Our businesses that have been here for generations if they can't Compete and be effective. We're going to lose what we already have versus trying to develop what we what we want We also need to look at it How can we incentivize and that might be through Land acquisition it may be through some tids might be through developing some funds But if we think about it if we can get people to move here and afford to live here because Living in shabuagan is affordable We just need to help them get the housing that they need so that they'll move here and stay here and realize What a great place it is to live work and play So that's what I wanted to add to the council to the committee For discussion. Thank you Okay, do you want to start out with the discussion here? All right, uh I just I just want to add a few more comments to And I appreciate Chad and Todd what they've said too But I do just want to underline a major point that that Chad made too in terms of when we're talking about housing Is that you know what we're hearing from a lot of these business owners is that they want to grow and expand They want to stay in this community But they're not able to grow with if we're not able to grow our housing stock as well and diversify our housing stock You know a lot of the context that I've been talking about, you know, there are companies that you know, say if they want to add 100 more employees That's basically a kind of target number of how many more housing units that we need to develop in this community For them to grow and be successful So I always want to kind of put that in in context too But also it's about them relocating possibly starting their family here So we're not just talking about one person per job that's brought here We're talking about maybe four or five depending on their size of their family as well for that additional number of folks that that that that bring here And now I just really want to really emphasize the the importance of this discussion and this topic as well Last monday the governor was in town Visiting the housing a housing authority at the washroom in building and along Along with him was the executive director of wita. We had a great conversation with other community stakeholders Rep representative katsumos there county administrator adam pain was there And We had some really good conversations about just overall housing in this community and what it means to be affordable And what resources and partnerships the state has And I'll say, you know, we we does very excited about this study They want to play a partnership in there So I'm I'm looking forward to the partnerships that we can have With this as well and and Todd and I were on a meeting with some folks from the county leadership as well So in terms of when we talk about this being a City strategy that we're implementing too. We need to look at it from a regional approach With what the benefit looks like for the entire community in the entire county So we're going to be having some more additional conversations on that too and When when you're in communication with with your constituents because we hear it all the time, you know We're building too many apartments. We're building too many expensive apartments We need to really have the conversation to hit home that, you know, we're really trying to keep pace with With with the demand for the community You know, if you look at the overall population growth of the city, it's declined But if you again if you look at the percentage growth of the county It's 1.4 percent over the last decade is very stagnant and below a lot of the other growth rates across across the state of Wisconsin So we're we're flatlining here and in order for us to stay competitive and grow We need to focus on hundred or different housing options as well Um, so please read the study. Please. I know it's it's it's a big long read But if you can't sleep at night take some time digest the information It's it's for me. It's exciting stuff And gives us a lot of good ideas too Regarding the housing committee what we're really looking for is is thoughts and ideas From the council to provide us with a sense of direction Because if you look at the options You can go all over the place and when you're talking about housing specifically There's a lot of I mean you can go in a million different ways in terms of what we're going to prioritize first And it's the council's role and responsibility To kind of set that direction for us to get get a good head start I know there's a lot of folks in the community that are excited about starting a housing Affordable housing committee and want to be a part of that conversations and those decisions that are being made Um But you know as as we all know, um When it comes to affordable housing, there's there's many different directions that we can look at in the dress So I just kind of wanted to add that had those and thank chat and his department for putting this together Alderman decker alderman born Go ahead go ahead Jim Thank you. Uh, thank you, mr. Chairman. Uh, I I heard an interesting uh statistic today In a piggybacks on something that chad was talking about About the uh being afford afford to build a single family home. I heard that uh The cost of building a single family home because of the lumber the lumber Expenses right now depending on the size of the Single family home can add an additional $30,000 to a home that's currently being built around the country Another another thing I another thing I wanted to mention is that Uh Another we have to look at what's what's the uh income level for the for the citizens of shabuagan Uh lost in the county. We lost over 900 people in 10 years. What's the reason for that? We have uh, some of our young people our millennial age group people the highest level In the history of this country of those that age groups still living at home with their parents So I I think I think our companies Have to look at providing family supporting jobs I mean other than a couple of our largest employers People in these younger age groups have to work two or three jobs And you can still see what they're what the per capita income is It it's it is unaffordable to rent Some of the apartments that are being built there's no question about that But on the other hand they have other expenses besides their their rent And uh, and and the other thing we have to look at I don't know if you have any statistics chat on what What the break even it is for a developer for a two-bedroom apartment. There's a lot of people Families are going to be looking for more than a one-bedroom apartment and if the break even The break even point for rent is 1,300 bucks. I can just imagine what it is for For a two for a two-bedroom or more So I I see one of the big problems Just basically is that people in Sheboygan are not making family sustaining wages And that is a real problem. You can't expect people to work two or three hours a day to put a roof over their head I think some of the companies have to take a look at providing higher wages for their employers And I think that would help the situation. Thank you Okay Who is next was it reberda or marcus first marcus marcus go ahead. Thank you, mr. Chair Questions for chad There's about 300 Units being added by the oscar 240 to be precise What are we expecting that to do to the vacancy rate in the short run and long run? The the 3.3 Percent vacancy rate that I showed includes the oscar Oh my okay And then why did the study not Include the independent senior living facility numbers that are already in existence in the city What the consultant told me is that they were unable to find the actual Units the amount of units that are out there that there's no like state database for Independent units to get an accurate count. Did how much did we pay for this study? 30 000 and and for $30,000 they couldn't be bothered to make a couple of phone calls and a google search I've done that google search myself and I can't find I mean there's lists But you don't know how accurate the Information is and if you're going to put it in the study and you are sorting some You know website that you don't know if it's accurate. It's hard to do that and a consultant doesn't Typically they like to work with things like the department of administration and other organizations And we had they worked with a person that's on the mls a local realtor To try to pull information as best as they can we worked with the city at Cessar's office and and tried to get what we can but it was the information just wasn't there Thank you. My final question would be about the sheboygan housing coalition I'm not familiar with that and I couldn't find very much on them online Do they meet regularly and how do you get information about them? so Mayor sorenson actually chaired it for a little bit so you might have the best knowledge Yeah, so I so It's it's it's a nice group They're a ragtag kind of group made up of non-profits landlords other types of housing advocates as well They I mean before covet, you know, they met monthly And they kind of would address multitude of different issues homelessness supporting vulnerable populations development Um, again, you know, when you talk about housing, there's a million different Avenues that that come up and this was primarily the group that had those conversations and one of their key components was Education and getting the community involved and talking about, you know, or our housing needs as a community But again when you have a large group, you know, 30 36 individuals when everyone has their own kind of You know field and realm that they're working in everyone brings a different priority. So it's not necessarily A focused group and also and they'll be the first ones to admit it, you know, they don't have focused They don't really have a mission statement or goals that they're working towards Um, I know when I was the chairman of that committee that was something we were working on developing um but Yeah, that's that's them. They have a facebook page. Um, but you know, besides that I don't know what else Thank you. Okay. Alrighty was it Barbara Roberto next Thank you. Um I I was pleased to hear that the governor was in town along with wita Keep that going. That's really very nice and don't forget that our governor Grew up in this Plymouth. So he grew up in shboyton county. Yeah, I have a soft spot for us Um, I am also a believer in not reinventing the wheel And we have plenty of wheels on the ground right now so, um Sticking close to wita and we also have a couple of very influential state legislators who can help Second the scedc Can bring a collaborative effort to the party And they can also bring some of their dollars to the party if this is indeed an employer Issue also They might be able to be put in charge of get the employers together and figure out what they can do Third the shboyton housing coalition, which we just heard about 36 people is a lot to heard so perhaps having them self select and and making sure that it is a a slice of Everyone that needs to be represented But they they've been talking about housing. So don't disregard that they've already got a background in it and also Last but not least Don't forget the voice of the people who actually need to To be in that affordable housing group. So I think I think we need to move forward. I think this this Research that has been done is is pretty significant. I also think it's very timely I don't think we have that all about it all And just move forward. Thank you Barb and then cross yeah um, I kind of want to echo what Jim had said about um, the income levels and people working two and three jobs and um, just to you know Keep their head above water and I realized the developers, you know, have to break even at a point so they can't give their apartments away But then on the other hand, um Being a board member on the united way for many years You know, I we hear the nonprofits and they are the people working with the low income and I would like to see some data coming from Those groups and Find out how they're feeling about it because I think they've got more of a grasp on it I don't see that you're Comparing apples to apples when you're talking to Madison. They're a lot more progressive than we are They've got a lot of Well-paying jobs in that area Um, the one of their biggest employers, you know is epic Um, but they also have a very large turnover They also have um A lot of apartment buildings if you go through the fitchburg area There there are loads of apartment buildings and many of them and they are renting them out at a thousand dollars I have a grandson that lives in West part of Madison off the belt line and He's paying a thousand dollars a month for for A one-bedroom studio apartment more or less So you don't get a lot of space for a thousand dollars a month there Where here you could probably rent a pretty decent Home For less than that. So, you know, it's it's not apples to apples. So And that's what the people out in the community are going to say I've said my piece If I can just And I we totally understand that I think what we were looking at more than anything was, you know, Madison has Some, you know, major local employers like sheboygan county does And, you know, and maybe we're not going to have a fund of five and a half million dollars like Madison has But at the same token Madison saw a similar need and said, you know what?  So we need to start putting our own You know money and building our own funds. So I think to city administrator wolf's comments It's really about trying to be proactive in what we're doing And you know and looking at, you know, if we want to keep these employers here And we want to keep growing and you know moving forward that we're going to have to do something Out of the norm to move this forward and, you know, Madison saw that and they did it So they're they're the model but not a lot of other communities have done that They're, you know, a lot of them are just having starting to have these discussions and trying to understand how they're going to You know fill those funding gaps as well So, you know, one of the things I didn't say is there's, you know, there's there's a place for the state and federal government in this thing as well I mean this is an, you know, a nationwide issue on affordable housing. It's just not specific to the state of Wisconsin So, you know, we need our federal and state partners at the table with us and When we rolled out this plan we had a community Zoom meeting and there was two federal legislators on the call to get information So I think if nothing else the awareness is getting out there and people are starting to You know see the need Thank you. Thank you chair. I just wanted to kind of expand a little bit more on on the discussion is When chat and I were making phone calls trying to trying to talk to different groups and different committees it was Because we know that there's a need The problem that we have is that we need to figure out You know now that we've done a study and we realize where we are and that we still are on this journey It's really to find out from the from the city council Do you guys feel the same passion that we're hearing from our from our business owners and our developers that They want to come to the city of shipwagon, but we need more Housing and with more housing We will have more employees and with more employees. It means more development Opportunities and it also means that we can manage and maintain and grow our present stock of manufacturing, so I think we've heard it long enough And we know that we want we as a as a city want development, but I guess it really comes down to Are we willing to look at development from a not just a manufacturing perspective, but also a increase in the stock of our housing And I think that's really what chat and I are bringing to the committee is We would recommend that the city council the city council leadership looks at Development, but not just in a manufacturing perspective, but also a housing perspective both of them generate Um benefits for the community not just in in the tax space, but also opportunity and as mayor sorenson had brought up We need to remember that it's not just one employee It's a family so you're going to bring more people to the schools more people to our businesses and You know start changing the tide of or reducing our our population to increasing our population So that more people can enjoy what we already do. Thank you Uh all the burla Yes, so first of all, I want to confirm that I agree to look at at the issue as a housing and manufacturing together So I I agree with the approaches and I also agree. However, with what um other person Boren said about the fact that Uh, we all know that you know, what is not affordable is not affordable So the problem is funding the gaps and my question about that is Did we um I agree that It come one more committee I don't think it would help much. I don't think it would be much of value added to the solution What I would be interested very much interested in is how can we Be developed a different relationship with employers or better. The question is what is the Current relationship of the city and employers. How are City and employer local big employers collaborating or an issue if there is any venue that right now is used for that So is there a way is there a conversation active conversation right now of the city of sheboygan With the local big Employers and if there is none or there is not an actual active conversation That is something that I think it would have a lot of value added One to show that we want to be as a city that we want to be aggressive with this issue and that we recognize the need of the private employers For for housing and two because I think that in that perhaps there is some solution for Gaps funding and I mean through through local employers. So the idea that medicine has implemented I think it's a great idea, but We have to have I'm wondering if there is already that channel and if there is none What can we do to have that channel as an active continuous aggressive channel? So just to answer that so, you know, we've depend a lot on The economic development corporation to be in that kind of guide between The major employers and the city and we have weekly calls with them and the mayor and todd sit on the Executive committee and on the board of that group. So we have a lot of dialogue with that group There's a number of local Employers that, you know, we have relationships with that we've worked with as city employees So they know who to call and I've heard from a number of them and I continue to hear from a number of them One of them being rock line and the other one being nemax. So I mean that that dialogue in that relationship is there Um I think could it could it be more? Yes, you know, and I think to addressing alderman boran's comments is I think that's where You know, we need to really kind of push the edc to have these dialogues that if the employers aren't willing to raise Their, you know, their wages then maybe they need to contribute to a housing fund to help Bridge the gap so we can build more affordable housing at levels that people can afford to live So I think this is about a public private partnership versus Strictly a public partnership of trying to get this done We need our major employers at the table and and contributing and helping kind of fill this gap in developing You know something similar to the dain county workforce fund. I just wanted to jump in real quickly Just to kind of expand on it as a As chat had said, you know, we are members of the scedc But I I want to point out the fact that part of the reason why we're having this committee at a whole meeting is to find out What the pulse and direction is As mayor sorenson said the council is the one that is pretty much what I what I would call the compass for the for the for the directors for the department heads for For the mayor for myself to actually You know row the boat in that direction What we need from the committee? the council is Do we do we agree that We should be looking at development not just as in a manufacturing perspective But as I said a housing perspective because that changes a lot of dynamics when you're talking with Area businesses because when when you know since I've been the city administrator I've said what we are open for business But we think of that and that's manufacturing We need to say it to developers and say we are open for business In developing additional housing stock and we're here to help you and you know with your guidance and support And that's that's a big deal because we can't chat and I can't and the mayor can't move forward And talk with developers and talk to businesses and say hey, we're serious We want to help you fix your problem. You fix the wages. We'll fix the housing We'll fix, you know, you know when we talk about development It's not just bringing business here, but it's fixing the problem of having employees here to hire And I think that's it we talk about this and it's kind of a circle or a chicken versus the egg Which comes first and I think we've been talking about this for a long time And that's why we're here at committee at a hole is to say Do we have your support as a council and a and a committee at a hole that that's the direction that we want to move Then that allows directors and the mayor and myself and chat and the team to move forward Working with the scedc and saying our directive Is to fix this problem and we're going to do everything we can moving forward. Thank you Okay, go ahead Just I just want to kind of add to older older woman parela's comments too Chad and I are on the executive board of the shibu and county economic development corporation My first meeting is uh this week. So, um, this is I mean I can make a promise to you and the other elders That this is going to be an issue that I definitely bring up with the group and I'll be hammering home then believe next week Or week after that Todd and I have Heads of heads of local government meeting with the county so all the town boards village presidents across the community Um, and we'll be presenting some key points from from this study to that as well Just so we can elevate it. So it's not just shabuigan The city shabuigan carrying the water on this so that you know The village of glambula the the town of russell, you know, everyone else kind of plays their part if you will To really you know finding out what we can do in our corner of the world To to have a regional approach because we talk a lot about a lot of these jobs in the communities You know, yes shabuigan plays a huge role or the largest municipality in the county But you know when shabuigan successful all the other municipalities are successful as well But again, bringing it back to the point elder woman prela made to just having these conversations with some of the heads of Of our local businesses Yes, we're gonna start kicking them off. Yes, we're gonna kind of Put some more gasoline on the fire if you will to kind of light a fire underneath folks so that they have some more Um understanding about what our needs are as a community I've had conversations with with some of the leadership from the chamber of commerce as well So I think we're laying the groundwork to really really have some more serious conversations about this and this study does help Definitely help provide a lot more meat and potatoes to our conversations and to the to the points that we're trying to make as well, so But I guess Kind of to administer the wolf's point too, you know, I mean, I don't know I mean, this is community of the whole so we're a little more casual if you will But, um, you know, do we want to go down the line and just kind of, you know, what are folks thinking? Should we create a committee? Should we not? How big should the committee be? Do we want to core five people group? Do we want to have the 30 people housing coalition? You know, do nothing at all. I hope that's not an option around people's minds But just, you know, kind of what folks priorities are what what are you thinking? Because when folks are calling Todd myself or Chad, you know We could each say something different But we want to make sure that, you know, we kind of have a clear concise vision and we're all moving forward together as the city should weigh in You know A big issue like this. So I just wanted to put That out there. Okay. I'm just gonna quick while while you while I got you out. I want to ask you Do you think that That that coalition is Capable of coming up with a like a small part group that would work better I mean because I think reinventing the wheel setting with a whole new committee Is a lot more challenging. I think So do you want my personal or professional opinion on this one? Both. Um The right one the right one. I guess I guess my my my initial conversation is I don't know. I think that Again, we would have to provide them with what our priorities are as a city and a lot of folks that are I mean, it's the shabuigan county housing coalition, too So this is another component that we have to think about or this the the the stakeholders that are on that table, you know Generations for example is is one of the The members on this commission or that the housing coalition, you know, they're implement You know, there's some other nonprofit agencies. Well, they're very good, you know, not in the city shabuigan So who's you know, who has the skin in the game? If you will About how they're contributing to these conversations. I think Myself or chat or Todd would have to kind of identify, you know Who do we want as kind of the core group? You know, what are some of these components? Do we want a realtor? Do we want a nonprofit agency? Which nonprofit agencies which realtors which landlord, you know, so we need to have again, you know, a clear focus of what this looks like and then Then we'll have a better approach. So I guess mission Exactly. So I guess the answer to your question older Decker is It depends On what what everyone's thinking. So there's your non-answer. Okay. Yeah, okay Just a real just a real quick comment on so You know, the other thing to keep in mind and I we could do a pros and cons and we could talk about it The other thing to keep in mind is open meeting laws and talking about things and publishing agendas and having it open And trying to talk about development that might be coming But not telling them what's coming and you know, it gets into all of that stuff So you've got that whole level to deal with if it's a city committee versus a nonprofit the other piece I think that's you know, that's out there is the idea that You know, could we pull them out? Yes, you know, I think there's There's some opportunity but we're going to have challenges finding an affordable housing developer That's a city resident to sit on a city committee Because we don't have any besides bob warner if in he's a single family housing developer So, you know, so if we're going to be looking for Appointments to that committee, you know, if we want the people that are in the trenches doing this every day to give us some guidance We're going to have to give an exception to have outside people on the committee because we're not going to find them in the city limits Okay, I think we'll go down the line We'll go to Okay, a couple of things Todd you you you have repeated a couple of times, you know is is Housing something that's economic development in my years of doing economic development. I have never separated the two It's been who's been at the table So I I don't see I don't see the bifurcation of those two things And I would think moving forward Economic development is economic development. I mean the rda has has has worked with several of those of those Apartments because we know we need depart apartments. So I don't I don't think that's an issue that moving forward is That's significant the other thing to think creatively about and I do agree with what Chad said We we can't Yes, we are the city but our employers Many of our employers are not in the city. So Just kind of think bigger than just the city and when you need city decisions you get to another venue Um, the other thing and I I think she was from Buffalo, New York Chad We heard It was several years ago But the ability to refurbish existing housing and she did it did it significantly And she did it inexpensively And she did it well So there's more than one model. We we don't need empty space and and build 18 new years Units we can Take our oftentimes lovely housing stock and make sure that it's healthy and safe so um, I I just There's a piece of me that says of course we should do all this Let's just start doing it and and not spend all the time thinking about starting doing it just start doing it Thank you Okay Marcus Thank you, mr. Chair. So I wanted to add on a few of the comments that city You're the administrator now. I almost called you an older person, uh, mr. Wolff So what you've been talking about is a very clinical way to talk about this and I wanted to kind of give you a little bit more In the trenches give it a human face or so so you get mine Um a couple weeks ago. I submitted five offers For five different families one of which was for a condo for for single family homes The lowest offer was $10,000 over asking the highest offer was $30,000 over asking All of them got rejected and it's just because we have no housing stock in our area Over the past few weeks. I've got four out of the five into homes or at least under contract So, you know, I'm doing my job, but uh We we have a hard time getting people homes here right now and it on the ground There's people searching every day home prices are appreciating astronomically Um and over the past two months. I've seen people just drop inspections entirely buying the house so they could get a place to live To Roberta's point, we're missing the middle housing as well So there's a lot of buildings that aren't single family homes or high rises all the stuff in the middle And we don't have enough of that in Sheboygan and what we do have isn't housing yet It's it's buildings that we can turn into housing. Uh, it's the factories that were No longer operating and are just kind of sitting out there the warehouses and it'd be perfect housing stock right on the river Or wherever it may be inside the city limits. I'd love to see that going When it comes to this committee, uh, or what we're going to do to create it I think we should have something that's um Almost a subcommittee of our council That can give direction and bring in the experts when needed sounds like a good idea So when you also have any comments here to answer to that So just to just to wrap it up. So at the end we had a conversation with With the mayor and with all city administrator wolf today about This and at the end of the conversation the mayor asked me well, what is what is your what is your thoughts on this and what is your goal? You know internally and on this and I think you know The side from the housing committee and all the specifics with that I think the piece that Makes the most sense and we didn't really talk about the types of housing But to what uh, alderman svalio just said is you know, if we could develop some senior housing Um, and I don't you know, I don't know how that costs us But that would get us that would get the people that have moved out of their single family are in Departments out of those apartments and into hopefully into a sing into a senior housing development And then people that are contemplating where do I go? I'm getting old I can't stay in my single family house and maintain it anymore would give them another option as well And when I look at developing a livable community, um, you know the senior housing pieces Frankly a piece of the puzzle that we have not developed So I think we need to be aggressive in putting together a 55 and older senior housing development As really our first phase of of this and then you know kind of see where everything falls into place after that Sure Go ahead Chad, uh, so we've got that 55 plus development. I think it's the landmark square Maybe it's multicolored down by the river and the lake. Those are condos. Yes So those are how so what would you envision that needs to go if not that because I don't see that being the solution This would be a this would be a low income project similar to the Washington school renovation or the um Badger state loss where they would go for Some kind of tax credit or some kind of alternate funding and it would be rents based on income so Um so that the you know the person that's living in the house that they bought when they got married You know 35 years 40 years ago And they have very limited income could go into one of these Units based on their income and it would be a sliding scale of what they pay for rent Thank you and one follow-up to that there is a 55 and up community on isner avenue Is that the same thing or different and if so how? I think it's it's senior housing, but it's not based on your income It's just a standard rate for the rents So this would be this would be geared towards you had to be 55 and older and you and they would look at your income And based on what you report on your taxes is how they would structure your monthly rents so that you can afford to live there Thank you already I guess all in comment that I want to make is is just that The study itself is tells us what we what we knew we need housing And my gut tells me I mean just the fact that the housing that we we've the apartments that have been put up Have been filled as fast as they've been put up I mean when when when constituents have had said something to me about you know, why are they putting up so many? Why are they putting all these apartments up? These developers are developing these apartments because there's a need for they're they're being filled So I mean when constituents complain about that that's one of the things that I always I said you there these these developers aren't spending this money just to spend this money to build these So the need is there and I think we have to do whatever we can to whatever we to support that so So I think you know Really what I think that the takeaways are is that if you guys agree that there is a need for housing Is the fact that you know the city staff is going to be aggressive in looking at, you know Marketable sites that we think Bode themselves well for for housing whether it's single family or multifamily and that the city is going to have to be prepared to buy some of these properties and you know find the money at some stage to To do so And likewise, you know if we get a development that we're going to have to be committed to some kind of tiff incentive If it's if it's an affordable housing project because You know, you can see the numbers they're not the numbers aren't going to lie It's it's you know, 1300 plus to build a unit So we're going to need your support as we move forward in this journey Alrighty anyone else have comments or Alderman decker, this is alderman born. I had a question for chad for go ahead Thank you Chad Have you do you have any information on the demographics of who's moving into these apartments? Uh And then, you know, if it's the senior citizens that are downsizing and moving into an apartment What's happening to their houses? Maybe markets could answer that But what you know, what what's happening with these apartments? Who's renting them? The majority of the apartments I would say it's probably 50 50 young professionals to empty nesters So it's people that have identified the the empty nesters are people that their kids have moved out and they said Why do I have a 3000 square foot home for just us and they're selling their houses and you know Those houses then are going on the market and as fast as they're going on the market their soul But the other ones are people that are coming in for jobs from the outside that are you know Going to work at our major employers. So, you know when I've talked to these housing Developers and said, you know, what is your mix? Most of them are 50 50 portscape apartments on south pier is probably leans closer to 70 30 So 70 percent empty nesters 30 percent young professional But the rest of them along a street and in the core of the downtown are probably 50 50 Thank you So do we need any other discussion on this? Do we have anything that you know, uh, Do is there anything that we want to put forward as far as emotion or anything like that? It's sort of Well, I think, you know, we To the mayor's point, you know, we At some stage are going to have to decide if we're going to have a Committee or not and whether we want to support that recommendation We don't have to do nothing at this point But you know, if if there is a recommendation for a committee or if the if the recommendation is to work with the housing Coalition and see if we can get there Um, we can you know call some of their leaders in and have a meeting with them and see what their interest is And report back at a future committee of the whole, you know, this it's up to you guys Okay Alder Bruce umbrella So I just want to confirm that, um I agree that the So I I don't think that the committee is a a good solution except if in my opinion if we use it We created to with with the focus exclusively with the focus of Um Relating to local employers So if we want to use a committee as a tool to become aggressive as Representatives of the city of sheboygan with the employers Then that I would be interested in developing that focus having a committee that We don't know really what is the value that it would have what's the mission and so on I I wouldn't Agree with that And as far as the idea of supporting housing development. I actually Watch the study with you guys online and I agree that the results were very clear about the need of housing in sheboygan Administrator wolf Thank you chair I I would like to just make a suggestion to the to the committee of the whole group um that if it's if it If the spirit is in the right direction that you guys would agree to this and it's basically giving the mayor myself and chad Direction that we would that you would like us to come back At a future meeting council meeting and give a presentation the reason i'm saying that we could make some recommendations We have several meetings as the mayor had pointed out coming up, uh, whether it's the scedc or the The local heads of state For this for our county But we can during these meetings we can reach out to local businesses As part of the scedc The local heads the county and we can kind of get a Lipness test of the the feeling of what they see and hear And kind of bring that back to you guys with some recommendations on next steps, whether it's how we're going to develop the committee Internally externally and what some of the maybe mission statements could be for you guys to To ponder and and decide and give us a further definition and direction Mr chairman, this is alderman borne Go ahead jim I like I like tod's idea And I think when you're talking to the sd edc members tod and and other businesses Uh, one of the one of the things and you probably remember this from when you were in the private sector It's not a matter of just getting bodies for jobs It's qualified people for these jobs And I think the sd edc and and the other companies are on shaboy and county and I know they're doing this But they're going to have to read redouble their efforts all the way down to the high school level And let it be known at the high school level What courses the students are going to need to take in math and science to qualify for these jobs these future jobs And also the guidance counselors at these high schools Have to realize that all of the students don't have to go to the uw system in order to get a new job If you get out of the uw system or some other college With a with a b a and x and it pays 35 or 40 thousand dollars a year And you've got 30 thousand dollars in student debt. It's not going to work They've got to point out that there's jobs available in the trades that are paying 60 70 80 thousand dollars after apprenticeships With catalac benefit packages and no student loans those Our employers have to let the LTC and I know they're working on this And all the way down to the high schools, but they're going to have to redouble their efforts And that's going to that's going to bring up that per capita income Over the next five to ten years and then when we're talking to companies that are going to move to shaboy and We can tell them that we've got the students taking the right courses They're going to be are going to make qualified employees not just bodies All right. Thank you okay, well I would say that what Todd said with the His recommendation I think that that's The first start. I think that's just just the start And I think that's where we where we should go is is give them direction Todd and Chad Ryan and have them work through this and Come back to us with some With an idea as to what they what a plan Um, I don't know A plan All right, uh, we really do do we need a motion for this really? No, we this is just a this is just a Yeah, okay. I mean you can do a voice vote just okay. All right We have that Marcus is a first and we've been Betty's got a second Uh, are all those uh any other discussion on that? All those in favor of that Any opposed? Okay, that carries. All right Seeing as we've exhausted the agenda Motion to adjourn Motion made and seconded any the discussion All's in favor I any opposed we are adjourned


And we're going to try to apply it and break it down and maybe do some exercises on how to cultivate it and how to make it part of your life because it is a crucial virtue. Of course, all the rules for life at the Iran Book Show are centered around the idea that your life is important to you. They're centered around the idea of you should be selfish, selfish in the sense of rationally long term, and you should always pursue your self-interest, your values, your well-being that life is too short, not to do so, and that any second wasted is wasted.  So the whole idea of the universal life is guidance on how to live the fullest, how to live the most impactful, meaningful, and ultimately happiest life you possibly can. Now, because one of the greatest sources of joy, of happiness is our relationships with other people, close relationship, father relationship, just the fact that we live in a social context provides us with immense opportunities to be productive, to engage in productive activity, to trade, to consume amazing things that we could never consume if we did not live in a social environment, but of course the fact that you live in a social environment means that you interact with other people. And the question is, of course, what should guide that interaction? What should be the principles by which one should engage in interaction, in these interactions with other people? Other people can be a great source of joy, a great source of pleasure, a great source of stimulation, but they can also be a great source of pain in the neck, they can also be a great source of angst, anguish, frustration, and even a source of real harm. And part of life, part of the important aspect of life is to navigate all that, important aspect of life, of a successful life, of a happy life, of a fulfilling life, is to navigate one's relationships with other people. It's to figure out which relationships are worthwhile and which relationship one should invest in, one should dedicate oneself to improving and to, you know, spending more time because they are positive, and which ones, which relationships should be ended, should be stopped because they are harmful, because they're destructive, because they do pain and damage to one's joy and happiness. And the standard by which one determines these things is the concept of justice. The idea of treating people the way they deserve, treating people in the way that their actions and the way that their behavior and the way that their moral character deserves. In the context of your own life, in the context of your own pursuit of your own life and your own happiness. So good people, good people should be rewarded, that is the just thing. Good people should be supported. Good people should be acknowledged for the goodness. And bad people should be punished, this is the idea of justice, rewarding the good punishing evil. And in the context of your own life, what's important here is to identify the people who are positive, have a positive impact on your life and identify people who have a negative impact on your life and act accordingly, act accordingly.  I mean, this is not, you know, not supposed to be some kind of emotionalistic thing, it's okay, I really don't like Joe. Why don't I like him? Because he lies. Well, then it's easy. He's in all, he's somebody to distance oneself from, he's somebody that can only do your life harm and damage. And it's something that you want to avoid. Joey's fun, Joey's fun, when you hang around him, fun, it's exciting, but is it good? Is it good? Is there a relationship with him? Something that is just a flash in the pan, fun, but ultimately could leave to destructive behavior? Or is it really good in a sense that it's fun and you could build on it and something, something will actually will lead to you being more successful, to you having a better life. Yeah. Jose, you should put that in a, you should put that in a super chat and I will definitely do that. So evaluate the people around you, but evaluate them rationally. Evaluate them based on the facts, evaluate them based on the standard of your own life and the value or this value that they create for you. So one of the most important thing in cultivating the virtue of justice in the context of your own life and your own pursuit of happiness is to really spend some time and maybe do this fairly regularly in evaluating the relationships that you have with people. Make a list of your friends and acquaintances, family members you have relationships with, or you relate to at work, at home, family, friends, everything and then think about them. Evaluate them to what extent, to what extent does this person, any particular person benefit your life? To what extent are they furthering, helping you further your values? What is their moral character? Are they good or are they not? And it's hard to do because sometimes this will involve people that you have a long-term relationship with, this will involve people that you grew up with, family members, this will involve people that you might be childhood friends with, this might involve your coworkers, your boss, the people who report to you, but you've got to have a clear understanding of who they are, what they are, what their relationship is to you and whether they're good for you or bad for you, whether they're a value or a disvalue. Because that should and will determine your behavior towards them. You want to cultivate positive, healthy, good relationships. You want to have a list of people that you really want to have good relationships with because they're a value to you. And also, if you evaluate people as good, part of justice is tell them, appreciate them, pat them on the shoulder. In that sense, your list could include people who, on the plus side certainly, who you don't have a personal relationship with, but who have impacted your life. People you admire, people you respect, people you look up to. And in those cases, tell them so, send them an email, send them a text, say, really appreciate what you've done to my life, you're a good guy, you're one of the good guys. I've learned so much, whatever, it happens to me. The value of supporting the good is immense in when it comes to justice. This is what's important with the God to justice. What's really important with the God to justice is the support of the good. And that's true of people within your world, people you have personal relationships. Do you tell your friends often enough that you really value them? Do you tell family members who you love or who are really values to you that you love them and that they're a value to you? Do you show your appreciation, do you express it? That's the act of justice, expressing it and enacting based on that. So I want to emphasize that when we talk about justice so often because we think of the justice system, punishing crooks, the focus is almost always on the negative. And I talked about this when I talked about the virtue of justice in the series I did about the virtues. But the real act of justice, the act of justice that most supports your life, that most supports life in general and ability to grow and flourish and be happy, is supporting the good, is appreciating the good. And that means more of that good in your life. But it also means the good is bolstered, the good is helped and to the extent that the good is something that promotes your life in one way or another, just bolstering them in any kind of way will ultimately help you. And we all need good people in the world around us. We all need the success of good people around us. We again, in the news and in our day to day living, we so easily focus on the negative. We so easily focus on the bad guys. We so easily focus on what we hate, what we dislike, what we want changed. All the people who have done bad things to us or bad things to the world or, you know, in the news is like this. The news is almost all exclusively focused on all the bad things happen in the world, all the evil people out there, all the disgusting stuff that's going on. But there's a bunch of good stuff that's happening. There's a bunch of good people out there. There's a lot that supports our life. There's a lot of positive news. Nobody reports it. But one of the reasons nobody reports it is because we as consumers are not interested in it. We're much more interested in the negative, the bad. So much of our world is focused on evil. So identify the good in the world out there, identify the heroes in the world out there. Identify, and again, it's going to be hard to find perfection. But if you see a businessman doing a good job, say something. If you have a waitress who does a particularly good job, leave a bigger tip. Say thank you. Wherever you see goodness in the world, stop and appreciate it and give it some feedback. We're so good at bitching and complaining. So I think that's my main thrust in cultivating the virtue of justice is focus on the good people in your life, invest in them, focus on the good in the world, invest in it, invest your time, invest your energy, invest what you say in the good in the world around you. And again, it's the one thing that we're not very good at doing. The flip side of that is that you want to distance yourself from people and do your home. And this can be hard. It could be family members who lie to you, who leech off of you, parasitic, who are just, it could be friends who want to get you in trouble constantly, who provide no real value to your life.  You've got to cut off those relationships. It's hard. But make a list of a people and again rank them, give them a grade, how destructive, how helpful are they and to the extent that they are destructive, to the extent that the destructive part of them is more part of your relationship with them than a good and to the extent that that is their fault, not yours, because sometimes it's going to be your fault. You've got to get a, you've got to walk away from those relationships. Life is too precious. Time is too valuable. You've got to invest in the good and disinvest from that. Now, and this is hard. It's been hard for me. It's, it's hard for anybody. First of all, to recognize that somebody is doing you harm and then have the courage to walk away, have the courage to walk away and in some cases have the courage to fight them. If they're really becoming a part of your relationship with them, if they're and in some cases have the courage to fight them.  It's, it's good to have a list of enemies. Isn't there saying that some way that says that if you don't have enemies, you haven't really lived or you haven't really stood for your values or something like that. Well, I take pride in the fact that I have enemies. I have people who really dislike me. People who would like to destroy me. It's good. It means I've done something, but it's really, really important to identify those people and either get away from them or if you can't fight them and if they need to be fought, fight them. But it's good to make all that conscious and it's good to make all that rational. Are they your enemies for rational reason from your perspective rational? That is, are they truly hurting you? Are they truly after you or are you just being paranoid? Is the person really hurting you? Is the person really doing damage to you? Or is, is it just your emotionalism that's driving you towards that conclusion? But we all have friends that are not good for us, at least in certain periods in our lives. We've all had family members that just make you miserable, right? Make you miserable. So, I mean, the big thing about this is figure out who's who. And don't just do it once. It's an ongoing challenge. Figure out who's who. Figure out who your real friends are. Figure out who's bad for you. And act on it. Act on it. Act on it. Don't just accept it. And it can get tricky. And, you know, again, if you want to ask questions about particular specifics, anything related to this, feel free to do so in the super chat. One of the issues I want to cover when it comes to this issue of justice. And that is justice towards oneself, I think, Jose, somebody who raised that up in the chat. You've got to make the same evaluation of yourself. Indeed, it's hard to evaluate other people without having an objective view of you, of yourself. Are you good? Are you good to yourself? To what extent are you acting based on your virtues? To what extent are you rational? To what extent are you living a good life? And if you're not, why? And sometimes you might beat yourself up for not being good. And it's important not to beat yourself up, but rather to figure out what's going on. Why am I doing these irrational things? Or why am I acting in this wrong way? How do I improve myself? How do I become the best version of myself possible? How do I live the best life that I can live for myself?  There's no value in that. You're too precious to you. There's no alternative but you. You can walk away from people who do bad things to you. You can't walk away from yourself. If you do bad things to yourself, your job is to fix it. Not beat yourself up, but figure out how to do it better. How not to make the same mistake. How to get on the right track. And again, I think Lance Virtues are the best way to evaluate that. Because having a good psychologist often is good. So figure out, you know, pat yourself in the back for the good things that you do. But be objective about them. Be objective about the bad things. But don't just evaluate them. Hmm, that's bad. Okay. But then have a plan. How do I stop doing that? How do I do it differently? How do I fix it? So, you know, there's a law we can talk about in terms of forgiveness to other people, which is also an issue of justice. When should one forgive? How one should forgive? But think about forgiving yourself. And just like forgiving somebody else, you forgive somebody else.  You know, we can talk about that. But you forgive somebody else when they show regret. But that's not enough. They have to do something, some kind of recompense. They have to show, thank you, Jamie, they have to show that they understood what they did is wrong, and they're acting to fix it. And you, if you're trying to forgive yourself, if you're judging yourself, you have to first recognize what you did is wrong, what you did is wrong, in what way was it wrong.  You have to commit yourself to the actions necessary so you will never do it again. And it's not just the negative you will never do it again, but you will do good. You will do right. And good and right by whom? By you. You are the standard. One of the few men says, which song support the steam? I don't know. I'm not good at retrieving that kind of material. Maybe you guys have ideas on which songs are consistent with the steam of justice. Oh, you're my best friend from Queen. I've been with you such a long time. You're the only one. Yeah, but I don't know that there's any content to the lyrics other than, you're my best friend. Is there any content that suggests justice? Yeah, not sure. So be just to yourself. Evaluate yourself objectively. And again, the way to evaluate other people is objectively. So forgiveness. People can do bad stuff. And if they are valued to you, forgiveness is an option. But forgiveness actually requires you, requires them or if you're the one asking forgiveness requires you to again recognize what you did wrong and try to compensate for whatever damage you did and particularly why it will never be done again. Act in a way as to give a T that it'll never be done again. Some acts unforgivable. I don't know. I don't understand it when I don't know. You hear about this brutal murder. I don't know. Somebody murders your kids and then the parent says, oh, I forgive the murderer. How can they forgive them? How is that even possible? How is it possible? Somebody takes away one of your greatest values that you say, oh, I forgive them. I mean, that if that's not altruism, I don't know what is. It's evil to forgive evil like that. It's self destructive. And in this sense, hatred is an act of justice. And hatred is an act of psychological health. Some people deserve hatred. Wow. We've got a bunch of interesting song here. Show the people. Show the people you love. That's good. I like that. That's James Taylor, right? James Taylor. Yeah. All right. I used to listen to James Taylor. You're my sunshine. You're my best friend. You are the wind beneath my wings. Debbie Boone. Isn't there, what's that from beaches? There's a beach as you are. Maybe it's one of these songs. Just the way you are, Billy Joel. But yeah, but is that what we want? Is just the way you are? I mean, it seems to, like, forgiveness is a form of charity. I don't even know what that means. Forgiving evil is betraying the good, absolutely. It betrays, it's betraying yourself and it's betraying every good person you know. You cannot forgive evil. Certain acts can be forgiven under certain circumstances. But pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over. That's a song. Beaches, the wind beneath my wings. There you go. Thank you. Thank you, wind beneath the wings. That's two sisters, I think, right? But it's a value. Nobody does it better by calling Simon. There you go. Good ones. You're the cherry on my Sunday. I don't know what that is. All right, so justice. It deserves your attention. It deserves your focus. We interact with people all the time. We get values from people all the time. Many people provide us with disvalues, unfortunately, all the time. We got to evaluate, we got to judge. Judge them, be prepared to be judged yourself. But judge them, judge yourself. Objectively, rationally. Promote the good, support the good, thank the good, appreciate the good. Tell the good that they're appreciated. Tell the people you love, you love them. You can't do it often enough. Can't do it often enough. Tell the people you admire that you admire them. And just get away from the people who are destructive in your life. Who are not good for you. What was this, something here? I saw before. Yeah, Scott mentioned gratitude. Yeah, express gratitude. Say thank you, often, to the people who add value to your life. Gratitude is a form of justice. Gratitude is really, really important in life. It again is an expression of your values. It supports the good. And it gives you the sense that you've paid for the good. Again, we talk about trade, win-win. Part of that trade is you expressing gratitude. You got something? Thank you. I really appreciated what you do, done, given me, and so on. Cultivate that. Practice it. Make it part of who you are. Again, in the context of making you the best person you can be. Love. Love is an act of justice. Love is an act of justice to yourself and to the person you love. But love, don't give up on love. Find love, romantic love, and other forms of love. But particular romantic love, if you find somebody you truly love, God, that is so amazing. That is so beautiful and wonderful. Then fight for it. Invest in it. Dedicate yourself to it. Express it. Show gratitude for it. People give up on relationships, give up on love so often. Can hate be justice? Absolutely. There are people who deserve your hatred. And the hatred is there.  Somebody you hate is somebody who's done and can do you great harm. The hatred is there to prevent you from engaging with them, to prevent you from getting yourself in a situation where they do you great harm.  Again, justice is selfish. Justice is there to help you live a better life. Now again, it has to be rational. It has to be objective.  You shouldn't hate people. You should forgive them again. I'm against forgiveness unless it's earned. I'm for hatred when it's earned. Oh, now we're going on love songs. There are a lot of good love songs. Yeah, one of my, yeah, a lot of good love songs. All right, let's see. So yeah, we're super chat. Particularly if you have any questions on justice, any comments on justice, any things you would like me to talk about with regard to justice. Now is the time before I get to other super chat questions, because I see there's a bunch of super chat questions unrelated to this issue. You know, one of the reasons I get angry at people in a chat, one of the reasons I get angry in debates, it's because it angers me to see irrationality.  I can't do it. I can't do it. If I see any justice, if I see something wrong, if I see people committing bad acts, you can't just stay silent. You've got to act on it. And the same with the good. If you see something good, you've got to act on it. You've got to do something. Thank you for listening or watching the Iran Book Show. If you'd like to support the show, we make it as easy as possible for you to trade with me. You get value from listening. You get value from watching. Show your appreciation. You can do that by going to www.uranbrookshow.com by going to Patreon, subscribe star locals and just making an appropriate contribution on any one of those channels. Also, if you'd like to see the Iran Book Show grow, please consider sharing our content and of course, subscribe. Press that little bell button right down there on YouTube so that you get an announcement when we go live. And for those of you who are already subscribers of the show, thank you. I very much appreciate it.


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