and welcome to this episode of the Hawaii Smooth Jazz Connection. I am your host, Wendell and Harris. My guest today is a two-time Grammy-winning musician, guitarist and producer who hails from Jamaica, who has spent the past two decades building a name for himself and has cemented a prime position as the go-to guitarist for a smooth, notable project. His sound is marked by a primary influences that fuse jazz, reggae and rock. He has played and toured with Mati Alexander, Julian Marley and Damien Dong Marley, the sons of the late reggae icon Bob Marley, Shaggy, Diana King, Lauren Hill, Maxie Priest, and the list goes on. His latest album, Cliff Marley Tosh, is currently in the Grammy consideration phase of voting at the recording academy. I am so happy to have him here today. Let's welcome all the way from Jamaica, Mr. Robert DeWise Brownie to the show. Aloha, how are you? Hi, Greta, I'm good, I'm good. How are you? I am so well. I am so glad to have you here on the show all the way from Jamaica. Yes, yes, yes, sunny, sunny, hot Jamaica. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today. Let's get this train started, you know, like I like to say. What or who got you started in the music industry? How did you get to the beginning? Well, it's a family thing, you know, because I grew up in a family of musicians. My dad and uncles, they were all a band, you know, and they're all musicians. And if you're familiar with the Jamaican music industry, you know, there's Cliffy Brownie from Steelie and Cliffy, which was a production duo with many hits from the 80s coming up. Danny Brownie, same thing, producer, guitarist, Dalton Brownie, also guitarist. Glenn Brownie, my father, is a bass player and my uncle Noel, keyboard player. So they were all musicians and they had a band, Brownie bunch. And so watching them as I grew up, you know, it's just what I wanted to do. And that's what I ended up doing. So early on, the influence was by, you know, family, pretty much. Your family. Yeah. So, but how did you get to start? How did you start playing the guitar? Oh, wow. My first instrument is drums, actually. And as a young age, before I was 10, you know, I was playing the drums. But my father brought a guitar to the house. I didn't grow up with my dad.  My mom grew me. But dad is always, you know, visiting and stuff. So I have a twin brother, Richard, who plays bass. So dad brought a guitar to the house for my brother because he says, you know, a good bass player also knows how to play guitar. So instead of me, you know, every day I used to set up the drum kit and play. And, you know, I just found it easier to not set up the drum kit and take up the guitar. And jam with my brother while he was playing bass because he wasn't interested in the guitar at all. So it was just a convenient thing for me to pick up the guitar and say, OK, let's jam some. Let's try some together like this. And it just became what I did over and over until I just picked up the guitar full-time. Nice. Now, you play different genres of music. You know, coming from Jamaica, you know, reggae, right? But you do reggae, you do jazz, you do rock.  And we're going to get to that part later. But what is your favorite genre of music to play? Oh, to play definitely reggae, definitely. Yeah. It's in the blood, it's in the culture, it's in the system, it's all around me. So definitely reggae. Reggae? Now, you know, the pandemic affected all of us, OK? And I know it affected you guys in Jamaica, of course, over in the United States, Europe, everywhere. What did you do to get through those difficult times with the pandemic? Because, you know, the entertainment industry had came to a halt. Right. Pretty much I was trying to focus on completing projects that I have, you know, because there was no traveling, as you say, and there is no shows. So I took the time to actually, you know, try and create projects, you know, keep busy. So I did a lot of recording, still trying to finish up stuff that have started. So that's basically it, you know, just trying to complete stuff and learning how to better promote my music as well. Now, you say your family, you know, that's how you got started was for your family. But who are some of your influencers, you know, in the music industry that influenced you? Besides your family. Oh, because I was going to mention that first. I know you can. But guitar-wise, there is, I remember I was Ariel Hendricks above at one point, you know, I really admire Hendricks. Hence, that's the beginning of the rock influence. And there are cats like Lee Retinawer, Larry Carlton, George Benson, obviously, Norman Brown, you know, those jazz cats. And then you have on the rock side, again, you have Satriani, Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, and those guys. But early on, when I used to listen mostly reggae, the Marley guitar players, Junior Marvin and Al Anderson, they were really, you know, the ones I listened to to get the whole reggae vibe. Also, I used to go to, my dad used to play with Ziggy Marley back in the 90s. And I used to go to his rehearsals all the time. So the guitarists for Ziggy Marley at the time, Earl Chinasmith and Ian Coleman, Busy, Ian Coleman, those two guitarists who also, you know, made an influence on my Jamaican style of playing. Now you have collaborated with quite a few people, okay? On your music. Who would be your dream collaboration? And I asked this question because it interests me to find out what each artist I ask, what they're gonna say.  But who would be your dream collaboration? Does it have to be a singer or a musician? It could be anyone, anybody that you wanna work with that you would love to work with, dead or, you know, or alive. I've actually never thought about it, but now that you asked the question, probably Prince, because I admire his guitar playing and his compositions and his whole vibe. So maybe Prince would have, yeah, Prince would have been a great person to call up with, yeah. And I can see you doing something of a Prince song. I see you, I see you doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then maybe add that little island flavor to it, like. Definitely, definitely. Like I like to say, now let's talk about your music. You know, now my show is of course smooth jazz. So I'm going out of my realm a little bit because you do everything. You do the reggae, the jazz, the rock, okay? So we're gonna talk about your projects that you have done. And you do have two Grammys, you have two Grammys. And we spoke earlier, of course, they're not your solo project, but I feel that you're gonna get one for your solo project. But your two Grammys were, for the first one was for the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, okay? That was the best R&B album. And then your second Grammy was for singing Shaggy's album, I think it was 44, 876? Right. Okay, and that was best reggae album. How was it to receive those Grammys? How was it? Well, it was great. It was a good feeling to accomplish that. Actually, you know, when I play, I don't look for accolades or preys or anything like that. So when a project actually does something good, it's like, wow, cool, you know, but it's a good feeling to know that something that I participated in actually did well in the industry, got recognized by industry peers. So it's a great feeling and I'm truly grateful all the while. Now we talk about your new album, This Out, your solo album, This Is Your Album, entitled Cliff, Marley and Tush. And like I stated earlier, it is in for Grammy consideration and I'm just hoping and praying, I'm putting it out there for you that it'll get that Grammy nomination and to get that Grammy win. I'm gonna put that out there. But it is for, it's in Grammy consideration for best contemporary instrumental album. Why don't you tell us a little bit about this album and how did you come about in making this? Oh, Cliff Marley Tush actually was conceptualized years and years ago, maybe from 2006. I was playing with Jimmy Cliff at the time and I think we just came off tour and around that time I realized I hadn't put out a project in a while.  What can I do? And I say, okay, Jimmy Cliff vibes is still with me. So let's do some Jimmy Cliff songs.  No, and then I decided to pick, you know, icons, reggae artists who are icons.  And then Jimmy Cliff is another one. So I decided to do an album from back in 2006 with, you know, three songs from each artist. But fast forward to 2020 last year. This album was like, it was just a concept. I recorded a lot of the songs and it just stopped because I started touring, doing other stuff and it just kind of get pushed back. So last year I again said, yo, I haven't put our project in since 2015. So I'm like, what can I do? And I said, well, and I have this project, why don't I just complete it? So I, you know, tied with the idea and I decided I have a mailing list. So in order to motivate myself, I said, you know what, let's do the album and give it to all the subscribers on my mailing list. So I said, yeah, subscribers, you know, interested and engaged. So I immediately sent out an email. I think it was early December actually and say, yo, I'm gonna do this project. You'll love it. It's a cover album. I don't remember the exact wording of the email, but I promised it to be completed by Christmas day. That would be my Christmas gift to my subscribers. And the minute I sent the email, I was like, okay, Robert, you can't get out of it. No, there's no turning back. So you have to finish your project. And I immediately started, you know, finishing the songs. There were a couple of the songs that I did not use that were originally recorded because I didn't think it fit with where I am musically know. So I recorded, I think, four brand new songs and compiled album, mixed it and finished it. I didn't finish it for Christmas, but they got it for New Year's Eve. So that's the whole thing with this album. And as I said, you know, what bigger artist, Jamaican artist than Bob Marley at Jimmy Cliff and a Pete Attache to show respect to and cover their, excuse me, cover their works. Well, you know, you do an excellent job with it. I have told you my favorite song on that, on that album that you cover, but I just want to let the audience know about your other albums because you do have three other albums before this one. So the first one is birth, right, of 2000, that was in 2004. The second album in 2010 is entitled Electrifying Grooves of Diversion. That sounds like an interesting title right there. We're gonna have to come back to that one. The third one is Groovy Love Thing in 2015. And then of course, the one we just talked about is the fourth one is Cliff Marley and Tosh. But I'm gonna go back to that second one there, Electrifying Grooves of Diversion. What was the inspiration behind that one right there? That title came because, you know, when I worked on the songs, they weren't traditionally written. Meaning usually you come up with a melody and you have a chorus and structure the songs in a particular way. For this one, I actually just got rhythm tracks from my brother and another producer. And instead of thinking like I'm writing a melody, I just basically played hooks or grooves on the tracks. And then some of them, it goes where you don't expect it. Hence the title, Electrifying Grooves of Diversion. And the word diversion, you can look at it in Jamaican slang also as diversion, which means the version, which version is without lyrics. So it's also a play on words. So are you gonna play for us today? Sure, yes. Yes. I'd love to. Well, we're gonna wait for you to get set up. And we're gonna wait for you to get set up so we can hear you play. You know, I'm excited about this. Cool. I'm always excited to have live music. I should do that right now, yes? Yes. All right, one second. So I'm gonna play for you from the Groovy Love Thing album, the track that most people seem to like. It's Groovy Little Thing. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Questions for you. You don't think you're gonna get out that easy. We have a few more questions for you.  And there's a lot of other guitar players out there in the music industry. Tell us what sets you apart from the other guitar players out there in the industry. Yeah. I'm Jamaican. What can I say? I believe not a lot of other guitarists has the vibe that I have. Has the Jamaican essence, the essence that I have being Jamaican, you know. And it's also, I mean, you have great guitarists who play jazz and all these other genres, but how many guitarists can actually, you know, jump into a reggae thing like and really play reggae nicely. So I think that is the main thing that would set me apart from most other guitarists. That was a great answer, too. That was a great answer because everything I hear you play, I don't care whether it's the R&B portion, the jazz portion or the rock portion. I always hear a little touch of Jamaica. Up in there. Right. You have to be true to who you are. And I'll always, you know, show your identity at some point. Yes. Yes, you do. Now, there also are a lot of new artists and musicians out there coming into the music industry. You as an artist that has been on the scene for a long time, what would you say to these new artists that are coming into the industry? What advice would you give to them? Try and try and try. Don't stop because, you know, a lot of people get discouraged when like even me, you know, when I've been putting out songs and when you look at the streaming numbers and they aren't good, it's very discouraging. But if you love what you're doing, just continue to try as hard as you can and learn as much as you can about, you know, marketing and promoting. Because it's 2021, you know. There are all these tools available to us to do it ourselves now.  So try your best to learn about the industry and just don't give up because some things that I've done years ago is now, you know, people just noticing them now. So it's just do it. And I have a lot of friends who record and record and record and never release a song. So don't, that's my other advice, new artists is don't fall into that category. Don't just record and record and record. I can, in Jamaican music industry, Sly Dunbar from Sly and Robbie, his advice I share is an idea, a song is no good if it's on tape or if it's on your hard drive alone. You have to share it with the people. So no matter how you think your song is not ready yet or you are not ready yet, you have to start somewhere. So put out songs, share it with the people, share it with the masses and you will grow from there pretty much. But keep on and just keep on. Right, now what, we have a few more minutes left. What do we need to mark on our schedule? Do what do I need to mark on my schedule?  Where can they find out your performances? Well, for now it's social media strictly and my website are robertdubwise.com and my social media handles are all pretty much the same, Robert Dubwise Brownie on, you know, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. There is nothing coming out. I mean, sorry, no performance is happening real soon. But I have some planned for maybe later this month a video performance that I'm putting out. I'm shooting for Thanksgiving but let's see how that goes. Okay, so we're just gonna keep, we're gonna keep an eye on your website and social media to let us know when that is going to happen. Because I know for sure I'm gonna be looking and I'm gonna be there to see you. Well, I wanna thank you so much, so much for being here all the way from Jamaica. I'm gonna have to make a visit to Jamaica. Everybody wants to come to Hawaii, but now I wanna come to Jamaica, you know. Yeah, as I told you, Hawaii is one of my favorite places to visit also, I love Hawaii, the vibe is great, you know. Is it, you know, in Hawaii, you have that big reggae scene here. Right, right. So you would fit right on in when you come over here. So we're gonna have to make it a point to try and get you here for our performance and I will definitely be in touch with you. But again, thank you so much for being here on the Hawaii Soul Jazz Connection. Yeah, man, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it and thank you for supporting the music and loving the songs, you know. No worries, it is my pleasure. To my viewers and my listeners, until next time, aloha and God bless.


Hey everybody, this is Brett with Summit Auto in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, and today we are checking out this really good looking 2021 brand new Jeep Grand Cherokee L edition. So obviously the brand new body style for 2021 from the Jeep lineup here. This is an overland package, it has the 3.6 liter Pentastar V6 engine, 290 horsepower. It's going to get you 25 miles per gallon on the highway, 18 city and an average of 21 miles per gallon. Bright white is the color. We shoot all of our videos in 1080p, 60 frames per second, so if you have HD capabilities on your computer, tablet, smartphone, or television, I highly recommend turning the model on right now because it is your best way to check out the looks, styling, and options of the vehicle before seeing them in person, before seeing it in person. And if you like the video and want to subscribe to our YouTube channel where we do videos of our new and used inventory each and every day, and the upper right hand part of the screen is a link to subscribe to our YouTube channel, click the bell notifications, you'll get updates on the videos we do each and every day. Speaking of those videos, on this video we're going to do the walk around that we just did and we're going to check out the original window sticker, and then we're going to check out everything that this vehicle has to offer on the interior from the radio to the seats to the options that it has on the inside. I do like the new lettering for the grand Cherokee on the sides here. We'll take a look at the original window sticker, feel free to pause this, I'm not going to go through everything but most of it, but feel free to pause this to check out to make sure it has all the options you're looking for. Grand Cherokee L Overland, you get the Napa Leather Seats Global Black Interior, 3.6 liter Pentastar and 8-speed automatic transmission comes with the Jeep Wave membership, the Quadra Track 2 four-wheel drive system and select terrain. Everything on your left is standard equipment and then this one has the customer preferred package which gives you the luxury tech group, which comes with the luxury tech group which is 1995 which gives you those Napa Leather Seats, the rear view auto dimming digital display mirror which we'll check out, that's a pretty cool system, has a wireless charging pad, the power driver seat with back massage, my new favorite option on the grand Cherokees, a 12-way power adjustable driver seat, front passenger power seat with back massager, 12-way power adjustable front passenger seat as well, passenger memory seat and manual second row window shades as well as four zone automatic temperature control, so pretty cool stuff that they that comes with that luxury tech group. Advanced ProTech Group 3, which is 1995, gives you active driving assist system, heads up display, intersection collision assist system, night vision with pedestrian and animal detection, surround view camera system, interior rear-facing camera, rear backup camera washer, integrated off-road camera and map in cluster display. Trailer tow group is a tow prep group I should say, the 695 which gives you the trailer hitch zoom, it also gives you the cover in the back, so if you wanted to put a hitch on this it'd be easy to do without cutting into the plastic or anything. And then you get the UConnect 5 navigation with 10.1 inch display which is $17.95 option, gives you the Macintosh 19 speaker high performance audio and the 950 watt amplifier. This one has the air suspension and active dampening delete credit which is $750 off the price. Total MSRP is $62.920 and if you want to get your summit price in the upper right hand part of the screen is a link to our website to get all the rebates and incentives on this particular Jeep going on right now. Three-year 36 bumper to bumper, five- year 60 power trade, 21 miles per gallon average, 18 city, 25 highway, it has not been rated yet for government crash test ratings. We'll go around the rest of the outside of the vehicle here. I'll take a look at the Overland rims. These are 20-inch rims and this one comes with Bridgestone Acopia tires and these tires are 265 50 R20s kind of a highway all-terrain tread pattern on them more of like a highway though. Obviously brand new four-wheel disc brakes has the backup parking sensors right there. The dual rear exhaust that's integrated right into the bumper and you can see that cover right there so if you were to put a receiver hitch on there that cover comes off and you can get it installed right there. The back gate here is a power gate. So you have the third row seats here. Now these are powerful down so you just have to press those buttons that are right there. You can see that the headrests automatically go down and that these seats go down pretty nice and flat. So now the second row seats go down as well and you can put those down with those buttons right there. Now you can't make them go up but you can make the third row seats go up by pressing those buttons again and holding them.  You get the LED tail lamps back here, you get the L logo indicating that you have the third row seats, chrome Jeep logo, chrome 4x4 and the Overland logo right there. It's actually got a world in the design there. Really a good-looking design. Notice the chrome on top of the painted has the enter and go system so you saw that everything lit up when I put my hand in there. That's because I have the key in my pocket and it'll automatically unlock the doors. If you have the key in your pocket it has the blind spot monitoring, heated mirrors, directional signals. Inside you get that black Napa leather interior. I remember it's got the massaging seats on this one. Get the Overland embossed into the backrest. Really nice bolsters on there and the 12-way power driver and passenger seat in the front factory. Formats, auto headlamps, you get the power tilt, telescopic steering wheel, nice real wood grain trim. Looks really good. There's your memory driver seat button. That's for your massaging seat. Power windows, power locks, power mirrors get the gloss black inserts and the Macintosh sound system here. Once I turn that ignition on it, it lights up Macintosh there and these mirrors do power fold in. I think I got to have the vehicle on once again for those to work. So let's hop inside, take a look at everything that the interior has to offer. You get the big, I think it's a 12 inch display up front here. Really good looking and of course the oil pressure is low because vehicles not on. Anyways you have your digital speedometer there. You can change your different views. You can put up all these like apps on there including your miles per gallon, navigation system you can have in there as well, night vision, I mean like just the craziest stuff out there. So you can do a lot with that instrument cluster, the heated leather wrap steering wheel, you have your cruise controls here, adaptive cruise controls and then this is your active driving assist, lane detection on there as well, information center controls, that's how you get those different screens up right there by that button. It has the paddle shifters on it and you get the wood grain trim on the steering wheel, the gloss black on there as well and just a really nicely laid out interior. You get the Macintosh tweeters up there. This is the 10 inch, 10.1 inch 5C U-connect radio. It has the factory navigation system on it as you can see and really a cool system. Go to your home screen here, gives you the radio, AM FM and Sirius. Of course you can do Bluetooth and then you have all your different settings you can hear, do here Sirius, you can connect the USB, AM, FM, just everything that you want to do on this radio. You can do your climate controls here as well including your dual climate controls. You can check out your vehicle information center here. I'm not sure if we can do this. There's your FAM cam which is pretty cool. You can see what's going on in the third row seats, the second row seats and you can zoom in on like say that that kid is the one that's not behaving. You can zoom in on that person or the person in back. It'll make sure everybody's comfortable and zoom in where you need to which is really cool, really a cool system. You can check out your surround view camera and you can see just how nice and clear everything is on there including your backup camera there which is super clear. You can do a wide view, wide view of the front, narrow view of the front. That's for if you put a hitch on here to hook up to your boat camper or trailer and you can zoom in over your hitch and then they have the trail cam which is this system is out of the Wranglers where they first had it where it kind of gives you an idea of where your tires are going to be heading in the future. You can actually clean that camera too. It's got windshield washer fluid on. We must be low but really a cool system on there. Here you get your start-stop, lane departure, stability control, parking sensors. You can turn those off and on. You can get out of the cameras there. You can put those third-row seat headrests down whenever you want and then you have your different apps here. Now you can do a device manager so you can actually do Android Auto or Apple CarPlay Wi-Fi through the radio here or Bluetooth. It's either Bluetooth or Wi-Fi but you can do Android Auto, Apple CarPlay without actually having to plug it in and then you can project your screen to that screen from your phone and then use whatever you want on the screen. It's really a cool system. We're going to do a demo on that one of these days.  This opens up like so. There's your wireless cell phone charge pad, two USBs, two USB-C's and AUX jack. Here's your Quadra Track 2 system, auto snow, sand mud, rock and sport. Your 8-speed automatic transmission, four-wheel-drive low. It has a neutral setting for flat towing and downhill assist control. You do get two cup holders there. Let's see if we can go to all. You can do your different ambient color change so right now we're blue. You could go to the green, the white, yellow. You can see where it changes all those colors and it kind of changes. If you look right under the wood grain trim there, watch as I change colors here. We'll go to red, green or aqua and then blue. Really a cool system. So much stuff that we could go through on this radio. But we got to finish the video here. You get that wood grain trim that wraps around to the passenger side as well. You get the panoramic Vista Roof, second row fixed glass, front power sunroof, SOS and assist. It does have the sunshade. There's your sunshade control, sunroof controls. You can vent it, home link controls and then there's your review camera. So this is actually a video of what's going on behind you. You can turn that on and it takes a little bit to get used to but you can dim it and then you can also adjust the height of it. Zoom it up, zoom it down or you can just turn it off and it turns into a normal room here. A pretty cool system there as well. We'll take a quick look at the back seats and then I will start it up and we will start it up and then we'll check out all the lights on and do a final walk around here. But you get the second row quad seating. These back seats are heated. You get rear air controls, heated seat controls, two more USBs, two more USB C's and then a 115 volt, 150 watt plug-in. So you can get to the third row and they kind of stole this out of the Pacifica. They have it on a slider right there and that kind of shifts up and then slides forward for easy access into that third row and I'm actually going to go and sit back there so you can see how much leg room I have and just give me one second I'm going to pause it while I get up there. Alright I'm in the back of the grand Cherokee L now and you can see I've got enough room for my knees. I'm not up against the seat. I'm six foot and this seat's back I think pretty much as far as it can go. Now you can adjust that to go forward if the person back here needs a little bit more leg room and then of course when you're sitting back here to get out you can just pull that button or pull that latch you can slide the seat up yourself so it's it's really convenient to get in and out of the vehicle and you can see now that that seats up just how much leg room I have so really pretty spacious back here. The other cool thing is you get to you or you get a USB and a USB C plug-in if you got your cell phone back here you get the grand Cherokee and the grand Cherokee L icons on the windows as well that's where the fan cam looks down on you and yeah it's a pretty nice back here seats are comfortable and I'm gonna hop out here real quick and we'll finish the video. Alright now that I'm out of the vehicle I just wanted to show you it does have these second-row sun shades on there which you know go down and they hide away when you don't need them but it's really nice if you got you know kids sitting in the back you want to protect them from the sun and you get child safety locks on the back doors get the same trim on the back doors you get the ambient lighting back here as well there's that Macintosh I was talking about that's lit up in the speaker there and you do you do get the capitalist fuel fill the other thing I like is there's no more you know inside release you can just press the button and get to your fuel that way. Let's start it up and then we'll do one more final walk around with all the lights on and everything. There are those LED tail lamps. I would personally like to thank you for checking out the video today and hopefully from this HD video you've gotten a really good idea of the overall looks and styling of the vehicle inside and out. There are those LED running lights and headlights. I must have the brights on and that's why the fog lights aren't going on but notice you do get the chrome tow hooks on there seven slotted grille that's all chromed out and the chrome Jeep logo on the front. Like I said hopefully you enjoyed the video and learned a little bit about the Jeep Grand Cherokee L especially the Overland Edition and the 10.1 inch radio with the Macintosh sound system and to see more pictures of this Jeep or one of our other 450 new and used cars trucks SCVs minivans Wranglers you name it we got to go to that website right there www.summitauto.com full pictures and descriptions of every single vehicle from two locations all at www.summitauto.com if you'd like to check out more HD videos you can go to www.youtube.com slash www.summitauto.com remember to like subscribe and share on this video and all the videos that you see there click the bell notifications you'll get updates on the videos we do each and every day here at Summit Auto in fact any second you'll see a link to subscribe to our YouTube channel in the upper left a link to more Grand Cherokee L videos like this one the upper right a link to this vehicle on our website in the lower left and a link to one of our latest YouTube videos in the lower right click those check us out and we're super excited to help you with this brand new 2021 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Overland in bright white clear coat thanks again for checking out the video and remember to like like subscribe and share


First up we've got Naomi Corn to talk about rights and commissions and how to avoid reinventing the wheel and passing off as your own and then being sued by the original inventors presumably. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you from me for inviting me to come along to talk but also I've so enjoyed the talk so far and so thank you so much all the speakers.  OK. And we're going to do copyright that way today. So my story is that ten years ago I was working at the Tate. I was a copyright officer. I was pretty new in post and it was at the time of the Matisse Picasso blockbuster. And these are two of the most in terms of copyright. They are the estates that actually are probably two of the most ferocious estates not only because of wanting to control if a work by one of those artists can be reproduced or not but also how it's treated. The issue of moral rights is particularly strong in France. So in other words the colour had to be absolutely bang on for the reproduction of the images. Excuse me. And also every time that the Tate wanted to reproduce one of those images it had to send proofs multiple times to the estates. Apart from that both estates are represented in the UK by DAX, the Design and Artist Copyright Society who charge a fortune for the reproduction of those images. So there were a number of rights issues associated with using those works. And I was approached by Tate Modern's Education Department and they said look Naomi, they said we want to do this project. We want to create an online interactive tool for visually impaired users using the works of Matisse and Picasso. And I'm a candy type of girl. I really am. I kind of have my heart sunk. I just thought how, how are we going to do this? I want it to happen. I really want it to happen. And I was determined, a bit Sarah was saying that she was determined for this to happen. I was determined for this project to happen because the value I could see would be massive not just for the time of the show but also for longevity. It was a project that would really change something and help people who couldn't traditionally engage with these works, engage with them. So I said look we're going to have to come up with a strategy. And it was the first time I think that Tate had ever heard the words copyright and strategy said in the same sentence. I said we're going to come up with something. We're going to make it happen. We're going to sit down and we're going to work this out. So I sat with them and we did, we planned, excuse me, we planned a strategy where we timelineed it. And this was just when the project was an idea and we timelineed it and we thought about the issues and we worked them through. We factored in trips to Paris, which was rather nice. We worked out exactly what we wanted our users to do with these works and we did it. We achieved it. We managed to work with DAX. We went straight to the Matisse and Picasso Estates. They at first actually said no. They said we will not let you do this. We will not let people interact with our works. And we put the arguments together. We got the curators together. We brought the curator of the show over to Paris to meet them. I went as well and we sat down and we chatted to them and we explained about the project. And they said yes. And I think it's still live on the TAKE's website. It was a huge, huge achievement. So that was the story and it was that sort of relationship of copyright and strategy that I wanted to talk to you more about today. I'm not going to talk about what is copyright. There are lots of places you can find that out about. But the places where it's less prevalent is the issue of process, strategy. How do we get from A to B from beginning of a project to actually seeing the project coming into fruition because we've considered the rights and permissions issues. And also because I like pushing this stuff as well. I'm going to talk a little bit about how that interacts with business models and sustainability. So how can we really think about the bigger picture, hence the flipchart and pens. So I'm going to try and do this in terms of concepts. This ball represents a ball of content, a ball of material, a ball of resources. It could be anything and probably it is everything that we have spoken about so far in this room today. I don't think about it, but I'm not at such a caudro, but we'll get there. And these people are the people that we want to engage with these resources. This content, this material, it can be text, it can be dance, it can be music, it can be images, it can be audiovisual, whatever. Because we're about digital archives today and making them accessible and reusable, that represents a platform of delivery. It could be a website, it could be a virtual learning environment, it could be a handheld device. It doesn't matter. Now, we've spoken today as well about reuse. We ideally want not only these people to be able to see the resources that we have in our archives. We actually want them to be able to engage with them, we want them to be able to reuse and potentially repurpose them as well. We want them to really be able to use them creatively to add to them, to interpret them. Now, there is an obstacle. There's an elephant in the room, which is why I'm talking today, which is that in an ideal world, and I think the sort of work that Paul and Jake were talking about, shows the sort of ideal that we can have these spaces where all this stuff exists. And wouldn't it be brilliant if we didn't have to think about copyright and we can just let people use it and do what they want with it. If it does exist, there's a whole other discussion we can have about if it's good that it exists or not, and that's not what I'm going to talk about. But I'm going to talk about the fact that within this ball of resources there's going to be a whole range of rights that needs to be identified and then managed effectively in order for these people to use this stuff. And this is the idea of a process already kicking in. So I'll draw this as a pie chart. So within this ball of resources, we will assume there'll be material that you created yourself. Okay, so I'll put another little figure in there. If it's by paid members of staff, one would assume that you can use it freely. Okay, there won't be any rights issues to think about. If the material has been created by contractors or freelancers or students, then issues start building up. Because actually the default is that these other people who work with our organisations, and I suspect there probably isn't any organisation in the room who doesn't interact or have work created by volunteers or students of freelancers, that's an issue because there will be rights issues that you will need to sort out with them. You will need to get their permission in order to use their stuff. And I will symbolise that by an arrow coming in. Okay. We spoke today about thinking about rights issues early. So in terms of process, before a work is created, ideally you have a conversation about who owns what rights and then what permissions do they then grant to your organisation to be able to use that material. You may have objects that are created by third parties. In an ideal world, before you acquire these objects, if you're acquiring these objects from the person who created the works, then again you can have the discussions about do they give you permission to be able to use these works, or maybe they want to assign you the copyright. But ideally the point of acquisition, confusion I admit sets in with documents such as letters where actually it's not the person who has received the letter who would be the person who can give you permission. It would actually be the person who created the letter, who wrote it. And in my lifetime I have never come across a letter where someone has written something down and said, oh by the way, I will let you use this work for x, y and z purposes. It just doesn't happen. So you've got to think about the relationship between the person who gave you the stuff and their relationship to the copyright.  These are works that are in copyright, but where the rights holders are either unknown or cannot be traced. JISC is a very prevailing theme today. It's actually another JISC funded initiative. We did a big survey of orphan works across the UK a couple of years ago. So works, as I said, that are in copyright, but where the rights holders are either unknown or cannot be traced. Massive problem. We estimated that there are actually over 50 million orphan works in the UK's public sector alone. You can read out more about this. I'll show you some links at the end of my presentation. So you need to have some kind of strategy. What do you do? Something's in copyright. You can't trace the rights holders. Currently it's an infringement if you use it. So we then get this issue of risk management, which I think is synonymous now with rights management. If you're going to manage rights, you're going to need to think about risk management as well. And thinking again in terms of policies now, what is your organisation's appetite for risk? I think we can begin to start seeing, if I can just put this on hold for one moment, what I like to refer to you as the magic triangle of copyright in your organisation, which is that actually copyright in any organisation for it to be effective has to be determined by a policy. What are you going to do about X, Y and Z? What are you going to do about all from work? How do you want your staff used by your users? It needs to be supported by processes so that staff know how to deal with it. It then needs to be supported by the right tools. So they have to hand the right types of mechanisms in order to deliver the processes that support the policy. And that all needs to be underpinned by staff awareness. If staff don't know what the issues are, they can't do any of that. Okay, so back to our ball of resources. We might have stuff in here where we've just taken it from the web. We don't know who created it. We know there is a rights holder. We're almost sure it's not a right. It's not something that's an awful work. And then we might have other material that's either out of copyright or perhaps represented by an organisation, a rights holder. Maybe it's PRS and PPL for music. Maybe it's DAX for images. So we've got a right society of some description. So invariably, as I said, in order to deliver this ball of stuff to our users, we're going to have a number of permissions that we need to get from third parties illustrated by these arrows coming in. Now, this is the trick and this is the clever bit and this is the bit that actually often gets forgotten about. That's only one part of the equation, getting the permissions in because actually you don't know what permissions you need to get from all these stakeholders in this stuff. You want to deliver to these people unless you've worked out exactly what do you want these guys to do with your stuff? If you have this kind of very general aspiration that you want material to be used, what does that mean? Under exactly what circumstances, what terms and conditions do you want these guys to use the material that you're going to put on the web for which you don't own the rights? Unless you answer that question, you can find yourself in a situation where you're pretty vague and you've not really decided about it, you get the permissions in and the permissions you get in aren't enough. They're not full with thinking. What you can't have is a situation where these third party rights holders give you less permissions for these guys to use this stuff than these guys are actually going to be doing. If these guys or users are going to be using the ball of resources for anything more than you've actually got permissions, that's basically an infringement. It's not going to work or if it's not an infringement, it means that halfway through a project you're going to need to go back and ask for more permissions. It also means that if you identify the rights to these early enough you can plan in terms of how long you think it might take you to clear the permissions, i.e. process, process in your project management, you can put aside suitable resource, who's going to be seeking permission, what help do they have, how long might it take them to do and the costs. Costs of someone or some people clearing permissions but possibly there might be rights holders who need to be paid. It might be that because you've done this early enough and treated it as a process that you decide to change your mind, that maybe works that you are going to put online and make available to these guys to maybe reuse, it's just not going to be feasible, it's going to be too expensive but you've got that timeline within your project in order to allow that to happen. This is really the idea of the compatibility of permissions coming in with the permissions that you then grant out to your end users. You might want to, for example, use an open content licence like a creative commons licence and you would certainly absolutely need to specify that in your permissions from any third party rights holders. This is where things get a little bit more interesting. In the world that we operate in, in this technology rich world where we are all content creators and content publishers and where the users of our stuff are also potentially contributors of content as well, you have almost a cyclical model which is by recognising that cyclical model that's taking place at the point of these guys accessing your site, engaging with the content, you can try and get permission from them to not only give you permission to use the materials that they create but actually permission to use the materials that other people create as well. You have a synergy between permissions that they give you and permissions that they're using, everyone else has given them. You have this sort of even playing field where ideally if you're submitting content it's under the same premise as somebody using someone else's content. Now to add to that picture and to build how long have I got? Five minutes. I just want to say something about business models and sustainability which is that within this sort of bigger picture of allowing people to use your stuff. I personally don't believe that that precludes you from developing business models that surround your content and certainly it was picking up on a question that was raised. Certainly if we're going to make our materials available more openly I think there's a very strong business case that actually that can act as a marketing mechanism and can propel the value added services that you have. So I would say that almost what you could be thinking about if you wanted a really big picture is almost not only the value added surrounding your resource recognising that the delivery of your resource to your end users can propel the value added but also you can simultaneously have similar resources being delivered to the same or different users. So an example might be that you have low resolution images or low resolution types of your resources being delivered to your users under one type of licence but high resolution images being delivered under another type of licence. There would be nothing to stop you actually delivering the same content under different licensing frameworks. That's absolutely feasible but it's recognising that this is all part of a much bigger holistic picture. Now I haven't spoken about the detail because actually I've been working with GISC and the SCA on some of the detail. Access, thank you. Can't you see? Okay, so what you want to know is kind of the issues associated with this particular bigger picture. Over the last two to three years or three years plus I've been working with the Strategic Content Alliance on an IPR and licensing toolkit which can be used by public sector organisations to help them manage the rights and permissions associated with their content. It exists in paper form as a series of template rights clearance letters, briefing papers, risk assessment tables. Your heart's desire in one book in terms of helping you is all free and it can all freely be customised and adapted. It is genuinely free, free, free, okay? But in this digital world we wanted to do something a bit cleverer than that and so we developed six learning objects as part of a learning module that contained all our resources and the context surrounding the resources. So then if you can see clearly that we've made it into an introduction to IP, created commons licences, orphan works and risk management, the Digital Economy Act, accessing and using third party content, protecting and managing rights. So if I just load up for you the orphan works and risk management one. So if you want to find out more about orphan works and risk management you can click your way through this little module. You can listen to this woman having a chat to you about the toolkits and post it on your own more.  You'll have a look at it, you'll see it on there. Briefing papers and reports. Okay, a whole load of stuff. A risk management calculator which is kind of quite neat. If you want to actually try and get an indicative score associated with the risks that you might be encountering associated with using orphan works there's a little resource here that you can play with. So one of the benefits of going to this is that it's all out there. It points the process as being absolutely key in terms of rights management and obviously risk management. But even better than that this little resource can be freely used and adapted and customised. So if you don't like any of the talking heads you can take them out and put your own in. It's all available under open content licenses. So I hope that you have found it interesting and please have a play with the tools that we've had such fun in creating.