Here for the last, last session of the day before our cocktail hour. And I'm just happy to welcome everybody to the community engagement group meeting. I am going to put a link in the chat for anybody who wants to learn more about the community engagement group and potentially join there's just a link that you can follow. Let me go ahead and share my screen. Okay. So, the community engagement group was formed a couple of years ago out of one of these conferences where we just decided we wanted to keep conversations going we had Sally's formatting users group, but what about some of the other issues that we're thinking kind of like what we talked about at the panel today and some of these other conversations so we started the community engagement group to talk about honestly whatever you all want to talk about. Talking about the changing culture that we have in our workplaces promoting professional development. Sometimes we have people come and they just have a question like what's everybody doing about this sort of thing. And so we'll just have an hour long chat about what everybody's doing. We have, we did one talk recently about stress management for thesis reviewers because it does get pretty stressful at the end of each semester when you have the students sending the emails with the exclamation points about you know we got a deposit by today. So, how can we take care of ourselves while also, and so that we can take care of our students. We're going to have some really fun topics coming up. One involves names on the title page and names that students use and changes to names that students might want to make how do we deal with that how does that that work at different institutions. So I can suggest a topic for the community engagement group just shoot me an email, and we'll get that straightened out. And we'll get you all set up. You can come to us with a question or full on presentation we are a laid back group. We meet every other month so the months that Sally's not meeting those are the months we are meeting so we'll be meeting in October and I'll send out some more information about that really soon. But if you have any questions or want to know any more information you can reach out to me at what near to Illinois.edu. And without much further ado, we're going to get on to our flash talks. So, basically, we have around seven flash talks, six or seven flash talks. Five minutes each. And I have a team of people here helping me so Valerie is going to be monitoring the clock and she'll let you know when you're getting close to time. Terry green I am not a cat is going to be monitoring the chat so that we can have questions and she'll collect your questions for you. And then I'll be coordinating the screen for everybody so I should have everybody's points with me right now. What the plan is is that we'll go through all the flash talks and then at the very end, we will have all of our questions just so that we make sure we get through everyone's flash talk. And so, please continue just put your questions in there in the chat as you have them, and we're going to give it a go. So, our first presenter is Elizabeth McDonald from the University of Memphis, Elizabeth the floor is yours. Well, hi, thank you very much for letting me do this. And I want to just start by saying I'm a catalog librarian. And so I have a librarian's perspective but also a catalogers perspective. I don't know all the audience makeup I will try to keep the jargon to a minimum but we are going to go into some of the weeds and I apologize for the weeds up ahead. So what what I'm talking about is switching new or URLs for old and library catalog records. In our institution, we create and maintain bibliographic records in our library integrated library system library catalog for each of our electronic theses and dissertations this continues the process that we actually did with our print theses and dissertations in the past. And originally we had locally created platform that housed our etds and in 2021 we migrated to be pressed digital commons platform. And of course the new URLs meant we had to update or I had to update all of the existing URLs that link to our old system. And there is a program that I discovered called mark edit mark edit allows you to edit mark records which is the input format for bibliographic catalog system records, and it has a merge function, which I only just discovered which allows you to transfer information from one mark to another mark record so I thought I would go about how I use that to get this new information into that I a lesson and some of the issues I also had with OCLC which is our vendor that where we create and distribute catalog records from. So, what we did is what I did is, we get the information from the be pressed system, which comes to us we can download information that goes into an Excel spreadsheet. And I use the mark edit program to create what I call a mini bibliographic record, or a mini mark record and that's the first record you see up on the screen where I could include the ID number oh and one of the things I meant to say is. We were very fortunate in that our original ETD system created an ID number for each ETD that was entered into it, and I was able to put that information when I created the mark records globally to put that information into a field the oh too far on the mark record so it was there. And that allowed me to use that as a match point when we migrated the information into the digital commons I included that record number into the metadata as an ID number in the press. So, once we loaded everything into be pressed, we got a spreadsheet out an Excel spreadsheet out from them, and I use the mark edit program to create the mini mark records you see there, which has as you can see the number which is 1375. And I included a title in case I needed an eye readable match and the 856 which is what our link to the digital commons is. We then exported all of our ETD records out of our seat we use the Sierra integrated library system. And as exported them in the mark format, and what I'm showing you in the next little snippet is the information that came out as two pieces of the information that came out with our mark records which is the oh to for which has the same 1375 number in it, and showing you the URL link to our old system. And then what I did is I did some brief editing of massaging the records to change an indicator on the link, which is the for when you see in the 856 record and I apologize to people who do not speak mark tag. But that change allowed me to be able to delete that old link from the bibliographic records. Once everything was done. I used the mark edit tool which is merged tool which allows you to sync up your records based on a number of different features but one of them is a strict numeric one so I was able to tell it, you know, only move things from record 1375 to record 1375 from our Sierra system. And once I had done that programming, you can see at the bottom of the screen where the mark record then had two URLs the old URL and the new URL for the digital comments. If you want to change the screens now. And you can also use this program to add notes at a later front if you put them into your mini mark. I did do that, but I didn't put that information up here. We then I then went through and deleted the old URL and did some more massaging and reloaded the records back into the Sierra system. And I'm showing you a screen snippet of the back end of what it looked like once everything was done in our Sierra system which is the new 856 the new link that goes in there, and the display that goes out that our students see that tell them it's a University of Memphis digital commons that changed from the old system and that it's an open access record. Now, we do put all of our ETD bibliographic records out onto OCLC that is our vendor, and some of you may be more familiar that that is also what powers the first search system if you've ever used first first search in your libraries or in your on your campuses. And so all of our first search records all OCLC records also had all of the old URLs. I went through and did the same process and then discovered that OCLC would not allow me to upload the new information by batch or singly I had a call into OCLC and a number of changes. So I really started to do it manually but didn't want to we don't have near the number of records that some of you talk about but almost 3000 records is still a lot of updates so when I talked to our department, they were able to put a redirect on the old system so if somebody finds one of our records in first search and clicks on the link, they get a redirect to our new digital commons. And that works really, really well. My concern with that is we are at time. Okay, we can't delete the old system. And that's a concern long term. Perfect. Thank you, Elizabeth and I want to tell you you have a lot of fellow catalogers in the chat and on the call so you're, you're in good company. Well that's good to know because I was a little concerned at one point that I was going to be, everyone was going to get the look when you interview catalogers and they talk too much in the public services people go to sleep. Yeah, that's okay. Nope, not here. And we're going to keep you on the spot because you have a second one. Yes. And I thank you for being willing to put these together because this information that we're talking about a stable ID as an anchor is something that came out of my work in transferring the data. And as I said, we migrated, and we use the locally number to be able to sync things and it would have been a nightmare without that. And that old number, I was convinced that I wanted to be able to have a number in the metadata because it needs to be in the metadata. So it can be downloaded to be able to move forward with the digital commons because I wanted to be prepared for the next time. So in conversations with the press they said to use the manuscript number which I've given you an example up here. And another number that they have is a number that's obviously coming from their, the link to their old system, but you would have to massage to get that out of there. As I was working on creating and updating these new records in the system and testing it, I became concerned because this manuscript number actually behaves more like a record number. And it doesn't download in all of the download features that we got from B press. So I was very concerned about that. And, you know, I've had experience with proprietary information and I don't want to say that I don't trust it, but you can't always get things that are in proprietary numbers out of systems and I wanted to be able to move this number if we needed to go forward. So I talked to our digital initiatives librarian and we agreed, and you can go to the next slide to go ahead and put our own number in to the, to the new system and from the system that in our B press system. And the old number from our system, old ETD system is called an identifier. And we had a number created called a ProQuest ID and looking forward. I probably should not have had it named ProQuest ID, but that's what we put it in as. We made that number the same as the old ETD numbers. And as we move forward, I am just adding numbers on to that element to be able to continue to have something in the system we can work with. I'm showing you an image of how the old number looks at our catalog in the back end and how the new number number works. Why do I think it's so important to have this kind of number in there and the first thing is migration. And while we've just migrated and we're not actually looking to migrate anytime soon. As librarians, we know that systems migrate all the time. And when we're putting data into our metadata, we're putting data in that will live in systems in some form for decades. We have in library catalogs records that go back decades and some of the information in our online catalogs came from print catalog cards when we were actually converting into the systems in the 70s. So, to me, it was really important to be able to have a hook and have a numeric hook. One of the things when I was part of the group that set up the original old ETD system and the IT people were like, oh, well, we can match off author or we can match off title or some, you know, system of those two. And I was like, no, no, we can't do that, you know, if you work with data, you know that authors and titles are not unique. We already have in our system. Someone who did a master's and a PhD in at the University of Memphis and use the exact same title for both of them. So it looks like a duplicate record, but it's not a duplicate record. We also have a number of titles which are three essays in finance. And of course, that's not unique. So numeric diet data is unique where authors and titles aren't and we know going forward this is going to only grow. I did use URLs in a match point when I was trying to put the manuscript number in, but you don't want to be keeping old links, a 56 links to your old data data systems in your system and record numbers. Record numbers is again, they may not be, you may not be able to get them out when you go to migrate. So I strongly encourage and and wanted to let people know our experience using a match point and to consider even putting them in manually to keep your data to be able to be able to move and keep your data synced up with your local catalog if you actually put your records in there. And that's basically what I wanted to want to talk about. Fantastic. Thank you so much for both of your presentations. This is really important work that you're doing and I do know the, you know, five essays or three essays on macroeconomics and there's like 10 of them. You know, it's the same title that everybody's got. Yeah. So as I get in, I appreciate that hard work that you're doing. All right. Thank you. Our next flash talk is Charlie so Charlie Greenberg, take it away. All right. This is gonna be like a petra kucha because I have a number of slides I'll just say next slide and save a little more for some of the other slides. So yes, the journal of electronic theses and dissertations is an open access peer reviewed journal about ETDs and I happen to be the founding and still current managing editor. And I can say next slide. So, you know, the J journal JETD is sponsored by ND LDT. And the host for our open access journal is the institutional repository at the University of the United Arab Emirates next slide. So the journal was actually launched in the spring of 2021 but the planning for the journal goes all the way back to about 2018. And I was part of a committee that was trying to figure this out for a long period of, you know, what are we going to do and how are we going to do it. And then we came up with the initiative that we really wanted to start it. And so again, Dr. Edward Fox is the executive editor and you can see the current list of associate editors, including the executive director of us ETDA. Yeah, he knows something about this process. Next slide. Yep, so we do do an honest, careful peer review and I know this drives authors up the wall because it simply takes too long still in our system, where we don't have paid staff but we have a lot of volunteer staff all over the world in different time zones, but it is now to get through the system and to give each paper to reviews, blinded reviews. And I do the communication with the authors when they, when they are understandably cranky because they haven't heard anything in a long time and yeah Terry is ready to shoot me. He has been one of my projects, trying to get it published and then having to revise it and having to provide the reviews and pinpoint where some improvements can be done. And yeah, I'm not a cat. Yeah, either am I but next slide. So we do have, you know, submission evaluation criteria, and you can see that we look for organization clarity articulated problem, original contribution to the ETD field. Does it include a literature view, do they clearly have the design and methodology and standard English and established reference style.  Next slide. And this is from the author guidelines page. We have in the author guidelines, very careful. This is for manuscript preparation and a checklist for submissions. And, and it's amazing when things come in and they don't follow the guidance but that's that's part of the process. So I don't have any sort of staff that's going to sit there and try to improve manuscripts because I'm not a commercial publication. I'm a volunteer managing editor for a nonprofit organization. So, next slide please. That's it. Everybody stare at this. Yeah, this is the format, this is the citation format and paper format it's kind of plain and I know it's not beautiful and we can't yet adopt some sort of software that can make our articles beautiful but we want to standardize on APA seventh and the APA website has a link to a model paper that you can always start with. I frequently are sending the link to the model paper to authors to ask them to conform. Yes, next slide. This is the up to date kind of global readership for the 11 or so articles that we've published. We, we have a good, absolutely global readership a high readership and of course the United States, and also India where the ETD symposium and the LDT ETD symposium is going to be next month. In Gujarat in the city of Gandhinagar, Gandhinagar, that's where it's going to be. Next slide. All right, and you can see the titles you can see these on the journal site next slide. And this is our most popular article. Well, popularity is based on a metric of how fast does it get read read it read once it was written and you can see the staff and figs share wrote this article. Thank you very much. Thank you Charlie and I think you know john has a thing in the chat we can circle back to in a little bit but I think there's some really interesting discussions that we've had today that and yesterday that could potentially become articles for Charlie to take a look at and be published so be in touch with Charlie or john if you have questions. And we'll move on now to Kristen, who's going to talk about AI. Is this. Did you get my slide. Yep. This is your title slide. So can you go to the flip. Yep. Can you go to the main slide. Okay. Hi everyone, I am really excited about artificial intelligence and specifically generative artificial intelligence. I think this is going to help us, because I have a I have a feeling that the ability to use plain language to speak to computers is going to make our students lives easier when they're trying to format their electronic thesis and dissertations. So the tool that I'm talking about is called co pilot. It's being developed by Microsoft and it's actually not developed yet. And I haven't really used it yet so I'm totally imagining what the future might be. But what it, what they say about their co pilot is that it's a suite of assistive tools integrated into Microsoft applications. And it's going to be essentially just like the help menu or like, if anybody remembers clippy from the old Microsoft word. It's going to be something that is sort of within the interface but not necessarily that intrusive. I believe that it's something where you can interact with it using natural language. And so my idea and this is what I hope it's going to be able to do and something that you can start imagining like how might I use a generative AI that I can speak to with natural language in my work as a electronic thesis dissertation administrator. So the ideas that I have are for example, if you have a user who's typing their thesis into Microsoft Word document and they're like manually applying bold format to the text that they want to appear to be a heading. So the Microsoft co pilot will be able to say to them, hey, is this a heading, would you like to use a heading style. And so then instead of having to educate this user about things like heading styles, digital accessibility, making an interactive outline for your PDF that Microsoft Word is going to be like already anticipating this need on behalf of the user and they'll be able to make helpful suggestions in that way. I also have this high have this fantasy that you'll be able to like as a reviewer. Hey Microsoft Word, this is the list of format requirements that I want to check this Microsoft Word document and that the co pilot will be able to look through your requirement list, and then look at the document and sort of magically say, yeah, I do see there's something missing on page 68, or it looks like maybe there's a chapter missing or you know those things that we see, because we're meticulously scrolling carefully through every individual thesis or dissertation. My hope is that Microsoft co pilot could make that a little bit faster by understanding what the requirements are and then searching through that target document on our behalf. And of course, I believe that it will be a immensely valuable tool for enhancing digital accessibility features in a document. The generate of AI technologies are one of the scariest and most incredible abilities they have is knowing what pictures depict. Even though right now, the automatically generated alt text for figures in Microsoft Word is notoriously inadequate. My hope is that once they get co pilot going and integrated into the system, it's actually going to be quite good, potentially to the tune of, you know, that being sufficient in and of itself, such that you know if a writer or author does want to add their own alt text, it would only be to improve the existing alt text and not to make it minimally sufficient. So those are some ideas that I have about what co pilot is going to do. Like I said, I haven't actually had a chance to try it yet. I don't think anybody has with Microsoft Word, but the co pilot technology is actively in place in Microsoft PowerPoint. So if any of you use PowerPoint to make your slide, you can now open up in PowerPoint this feature called designer.  I personally am not that good at designing slides but PowerPoint designer. I used it to make this slide and I think it's rather nice and it was effortless because I simply clicked a button and it said okay here's a really beautiful circuit board and, and then it moved over my bullet list and formatted it all and I think you know pretty pleasing considering that I put zero effort into it so these are the kinds of things that that you can keep your eye out for and if you're like, not sure if AI is going to impact you this is, you know potentially an exciting way that it could make your life better and easier. So we are at time. Okay, perfect. Thanks Kristen. All right, our next presenter is Behrouz. Okay, yes. Hello. Thank you, Emily. Hello, everyone. Thank you for having me here and I should thank you as ETDA for this opportunity to learn from you all and share my flash talk about the values of the national EDD programs. I'm representing Iran Dark and organization which is collecting and disseminating EDDs across Iran. Well, there are different types of EDD programs at an institutional level at a national level at a regional level and at the global level while there are many, many institutional EDD programs around the world, the number of national EDD programs is very limited, maybe because of resource allocation, cultural factors, legal consideration and technical infrastructure challenges. Well, some countries have established their NETDs, let's say NETs, including the UK, British Library, British Library, EFAS, Canada, thesis Canada, Brazil, DTD, while Taiwan, Turkey, Lithuania, South Africa and India, Italy and Iran. There are different models of national programs, some of them directly collect the EDDs themselves and disseminate their full text like shotgun gun in India, while others prefer to harvest these works from institutional repositories. Well, participation in some of these programs is mandatory, like test records in Turkey, but others do not compel institutions to participate like it has in the UK. Some only gather metadata like EDD portal in South Africa, while others collect the full text like thesis Canada. But why NETD programs are important, what are their values? Certainly, NETS programs offer several unique and significant benefits that make them important in the realm of academia and research. One of these benefits is enhanced accessibility. Well, do you have my voice and my video? Emily, do you have? Yes, I can hear you. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Well, one of these benefits is enhanced accessibility. NETS programs make research more accessible to a wider audience by providing a centralized repository for EDDs. They ensure that research findings are readily available to scholars, students and even general public. Another value is increased visibility. EDDs hosted in national programs perceive a greater visibility. This exposure can lead to increased citations and recognition for scholars, which is especially valuable for early career researchers. It also benefits institutions by showcasing their research output on a national or institutional stage. NETS programs contribute to the preservation of academic heritage in a country. They ensure that the intellectual contributions of graduate students are achieved, archived and maintained in a secure traditional format. Furthermore, NETS programs provide valuable data for research evaluation and impact assessment. Bibliometric analysis, citation counts and download statistics can be used to measure the influence on a region of academic work. This data is instrumental in making informed decisions regarding funding, promotions and research policies. Well, NETS programs align with the principles of open science. They promote transparency, collaboration and the free exchange of knowledge by offering well as unrestricted access to research. They contribute to the acceleration of scientific discovery and innovation. Indeed, academic integrity is another significant benefit of NETS programs. NETS programs often incorporate plagiarism detection tools and systems or can be used as a significant purpose in order to support other plagiarism detection tools. Okay, please, we are in time. Okay, another value is cost saving, another value is enhancing employment opportunities, informed policymaking and decreasing research. The application are among the most important values of NETS program. Thank you very much. Thank you. Fantastic. All right, we've got our next talk, which is from Ruth Lou. Take it away, Ruth. Thank you, Emily. Hi everyone, my name is Ruth and I am the director for thesis and dissertation services here at Ohio University. So today I'm going to talk about a dissertation writing retreat programming at Ohio University. So dissertation writing has always been experienced as arduous, iterative and very complex. So in order to better facilitate such efforts and create a more supportive campus writing culture, Ohio University has continuously improved program programming to further graduate students scholarship development. So this writing retreat, formerly known as writing boot camp has been one of the signature programs that has been run successfully and received positive feedback from students from all disciplines. Now it is a joint effort among the graduate college, the academic achievement center and the university libraries. So in order to mindfully design an intentional workshop, we had a few learning goals in mind. So these are the three big ones that we want students to take away. First is to provide students with a nice opportunity to improve their dissertation writing skills. This includes refining research methodologies, strengthening argumentation, time management and also enhancing their clarity and coherence of their writing. And second is fostering collaboration. We want very informal platforms for students to connect with each other and sometimes during the writing process they would exchange their WhatsApp number or set up meetings after the writing retreat to meet individually and we would like to for those synergy to to foster around campus. And I also think yesterday learning from Kristen and Lily and a lot of other present presenters, I think, setting up a canvas learning module would be a great idea to implement in the future. And third is to send setting and meeting milestones, things like Canada to see those the period after Canada to see how can you keep the students motivated after this period is pretty crucial. So next slide please. So here is the overview of this specific program. It is a two day dissertation writing retreat designed to provide students with focused time and the supportive resourceful environment to work towards their dissertation so we have quiet writing time on each day for four and in a separate room we have a resource fair and some other activities such as consultation and panel discussion from students who have done this rotation and or are going through the process so they can know in first hand how this experience is like and can can commiserate as well with other peers. And we also set up a three step program assessment pre registration when we collect students info after the program we do a focus group and then after the event will do a follow up survey so that we know how to improve this overall experience. So, and also this is a hybrid programming so we have in person portion and also the online version. So there will be a tutor or facilitator to answer students questions during in these writing spaces. So, in consideration of time so thank you for listening. And I would love to hear if you have any suggestions or feedback, and I will turn it over to john for the last presenter. Thanks Ruth, I know we'll get back to you in a bit for some questions.  That is Mr john Hagan john take it away. Thanks so much Emily and everyone for participating I see we have about 60% of our registered attendees in this session so that's good to know. Could you pop to the next slide please. Yes. So, we're going to talk about resources and I see my arrows are missing on this slide here. But the, oh, there we go, you got him clickable. So, community at the actually at the top of each web page on the US e to da website. There are some prime links and those that's probably easiest way to navigate to find the information you need very quickly. So, community resources. We have a variety of web pages we've talked about earlier in this conference the community engagement group, e to d format and users group. We have the US e to da forum which is on Google groups, and so anybody can put questions out there for the entire list and so forth. We have regional representatives for the US and other regions in the world and we're in the process of developing that and we'd really like to have your participation in that process. There are options to volunteer for example if you're interested in serving on the US e to da board of directors we have an application, and we always welcome fresh faces and new perspectives. And then I've added some other links recently that are quite related to our community resources. So we have our conferences archive you can look up information about our own past conferences. We have an events calendar and actually on the upper left of each corner of each web page. There is the current events going on. And so you can always click into that and that's where you purchase tickets for the registration, I mean registration tickets for the annual conferences and so forth. And, oh, so we have the US e to da members list I think it's on the next slide, membership enrollment options and so forth. And then next slide from the membership web page. We have new three basic options now we formalized our membership processes. So everybody can get in the door with a free associate membership that gives you basic access to all of our resources. I'll talk a little bit later about some of our resources are locked but you just need to log in. So you just need to sign up and then you can get an occasion newsletter for us and stay in touch. We have our institutional membership which is really valuable, particularly for folks who have multiple people at your institution who would like to attend the conference we offer a discount for unlimited number of staff at your institution which is only $100 per year and that certainly helps to sustain our nonprofit organization. And then we have an individual membership as well for smaller programs and special circumstances. Next slide please. I am going to skip out on the demo but you can certainly visit this online our US e to da members page has a listing for everyone who signs up under an institutional and roles under the institutional or individual membership plans that primary contact at your institution will show up there. And when you go to register that's where you can check to see if your institution is, you know, is a formal member or not. And then we have access to you have to log in to access this, but we have the member contact information and then if you log in and click the next slide. You'll actually be able to see the entire list of all of our members the associate members institutional and individual members, along with their email address and so we really would like to encourage you all to find who your peers are. And then one other aspect of this in the search protocol there, you can search by last name, organizational affiliation, or type of organization and if anybody who's gone through our membership registration process. There is a fixed field for libraries, graduate school, I think information technology and other so you can quickly bring up a list of, you know, people you want to see that are only in libraries or only grad school etc. So I think it's pretty handy and really helpful and we hope that you will utilize that to network with each other all year long. What's our next slide here, Emily. So, then the other prime resources resources for each of the professionals and as I mentioned earlier, some of these resources we've left wide open, for example, it terms and definitions things that are fairly common and you know we don't want people to have to But some of the other resources we find are, you know, somewhat precious and we want to reserve them for, you know, engaged community. And again, you just need to get either an associate or individual or institutional membership and you can log in and have access to all of that information that is there. I recently updated the accessibility resources from the workshop yesterday and so we have a lot of new links and information. Emily, next slide, quick pitch for next year, we hope you will join us either in person or online in Provo, Utah, for us at the 24 conference to be hosted at the Brigham Young University campus. And so we're really excited and gearing up toward that. And then the next slide. So I would implore you, see if you're interested and you want to host, help host a conference us at the conference in the city near you to let us know I think we set January 1, 2024 is the initial deadline for bids us at the handles all the financials and everything we just are looking for local host support and logistics and that kind of thing so please engage yourselves with our resources and thank you very much Emily. Yay, we did it. Okay. Thank you all for presenting. And I want to turn it over now to Terry. See if we have any questions that we can share. Thank you. Can you hear me. Yep. Okay, I put everything on to a Word document I did not have clippy to help me. I've highlighted the actual questions instead of the comments. First question. True question came from John to Charlie's presentation. Specifically, could you elaborate on the types of publications that JETD accepts. We accept a good research or the research design we also accept commentaries. We would also accept a carefully done review of a particular online resource. It pretty much is laid out in the instructions to author the types of ways that they can write to support the journal. Does that include like a write up of conference highlights of our conference for example. Yeah, you see I'm kind of hedging. I saw in your description of materials that that seemed valid. I thought it asked because we'd like to. I think the glow, you know, we have a global we have we have been attempting to publish a global perspective on ETDs for a particular year. It's like a commentary. So yes, that's true. Now in terms of the account of a conference. I don't know. I'm sort of hedging. I have two minds about this. I just wanted to do like conference reports of I think horizon was the publication I've done a few of those and like to see us. We have a news area of our of our websites. So perhaps I think of those conference reports is something more as news, not necessarily a scholarship. That's my opinion. Like I know we're going over so I just want to make sure we address one other question. So, from to Ruth from Kristen, I think part of this question was already answered in the chat of in terms of how many students participate in the writing retreat. Is it mostly finally your students how do you handle event promotion. So I don't know that all of those questions were addressed. And the last set of questions are for you, John, from to clarify on how colleagues would join if they have an institutional membership. So I don't know if either one of you want to address it right now or follow up. You know, since we are going a little bit over a little bit. Briefly. Yeah. The process for institutional members, whoever signs up for the institutional membership will then have a link that they can share with others, other colleagues at their institution, and then the other people can then create an account under the umbrella and corporate account basically that's how that works. And then the main person who signs up and pays the bills or whatever their account shows up under the official us to the supporter members, and then in the members directory, everyone will show up along with her email address to, you know, be contacted so forth so does that address the question. And thanks Terry I think I've answered Kristen's question in the chat. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you all so much for coming into the community engagement group meeting again will be meeting next month topic to be determined but I'll be sending an email out to anybody who is interested in participating. So just sign up for that and sign up for the group through the link on our website and we'll get you on the list. We have a little bit of a break right john and then we do our closing ceremonies. And our closing ceremonies involve prizes, so please come back for prize time, and we'll see you back here in a what like 10 minutes I think. All right. Thank you all.


Gold. Gold contract down $35, trading at $18.55 an ounce. Gold caught a bid, dollars down big, silver up $0.51, $22.02, light sweet crude up $24.49 an ounce, light sweet crude up $17.02 pennies, notes and bonds, the ten year note, trading up one full point plus three ticks at $116.08, the 30 year up two points at $134.12, and King Dala, King Dala, oh look at this man, no, no, that's right, I was looking at Bitcoin, oh my God, okay. King Dala, right, yeah. The dollar's down 1400 points, that's a penny and a half folks, trading out at $1037.32, that gave it up, why? At first you had the Bank of England going up on rates, it was just starting to go up on rates, but it was enough that it got the Euro going, the pound going, and the yen going all against the U.S. dollar. So you had the Euro's trading 105, the yen's at $132, the British pound is out here at a price point of $123 to one U.S. dollar. You get over and take a look at the indices, what you have now is you have an ABC structure, a small one, inside of a large one on the way down, okay, so it's a big number, man. Bottom line, you know, the spies are at $366, your price projection on the small one is $337 and the big one's $335, so $335 is coming at us, you know, when you have two ABC structures folks, your probability goes much higher and you're going to remember in the probability business that that's where you're going to go. The Q's, the ABC structure, down to $11 today, you get another ABC structure on the way down. Your first ABC, or the smaller one you broke today is $245, the larger one is $222. Bottom line, that's where I expect you're going to go. Gold, gold caught a bit out here again today, and I expect what you're going to see out here, you know, bottom line, we should get some follow-through tomorrow. We'll see, gold's up $35 right now, and that's all about this good old U.S. dollar. I mean, this was quite a move in the dollar as soon as the European Central Bank, well, it was the, it was the Bank of England.  I mean, the one if, if what should happen, okay, my take is you're going down tomorrow, but that's relief for the marketplace when that dollar backs out. Have a great one, folks. Have a safe one. Come back and visit Tommy tomorrow morning. Kicks us off, option expiration, 9 a.m. Real, look at him, folks.


So welcome to the April 21st hyperlider technical steering committee call. As you are all aware, few things we must buy by the first one is the antitrust policy notice that is currently displayed on the screen. And the second is our code of conduct. So, for our agenda today we have our standard announcements. The Dev Weekly developer newsletter goes out each Friday. If you'd like to have something added to that newsletter, please leave a comment on the wiki page that is linked in our agenda. And the second announcement is the Hyperledger Global Forum is still accepting CFPs for just over a week more. And I did see yesterday, I think it was yesterday an announcement come out that there are also an extra day of workshops that are open. And so if you'd like to submit CFP for a workshop, I believe those are now available on the CFP site as well. And then the heart is the call for program committee volunteers still open. Sorry, clicking the unmute button. Yes, we are looking for a couple more volunteers. So particularly if anyone on the TSC is interested in joining several people already have. Please feel free to reach out. All right, thanks Hart. Any other announcements that anybody has to make today. All right, seeing no hands, seeing nobody coming off mute, I will take that as we know. So we've got the quarterly reports I did see the Hyperledger fabric report come in either last night or this morning, don't know which, but it was in my inbox this morning. So Dave, thank you for that. I've seen a few people have already had a chance to look at it, but we'll make sure that's kept on the agenda for next week for everybody to have the opportunity to review the fabric report. Next week is the Hyperledger sawtooth report that's due and of course we always have the calendar out there for people to take a look at. So with that, I do have one item that I'd like to discuss from the TSC business this week around the TSC responsibilities, the issue that we reviewed last week in our TSC meeting. And I believe we've got about six or seven sort of checkmarks already in the, in the issue itself as far as approvals. I did see one change, Dave I think that you suggested that came in there. Just add an extra S to one of the words but I think that's the only specific change that I've seen requested. We're thinking maybe we could have a vote on this to see if we would like to formally approve this in the TSC meeting. But if anybody has any sort of discussion here that we should have before that, or we don't think we're ready yet. So now is the time to speak up. I guess there is one more item to be added point number nine. And that's not added it. In one of the comments I saw that. So, I think you just about one. So do we want to add implicitly the subscribing to the TSC list. I need to do put that in with the, with the S missing that Dave spotted. As I pointed out, it has to be in the second list so it wouldn't be number nine because that's the charters list, but that's the detail. Yeah, makes sense. Okay, any other comments or concerns. So I guess I just thought of one. And along the same lines. What about joining the GitHub org. Is that a requirement. I guess they, I guess if they want to be informed of the issues that are coming up on the TSC hyperledger slash TSC repo, then that would probably be a requirement as well. I'm there are a couple that aren't but it's, we can address that later I think. Okay. Yeah, I mean as I said before, I mean we can always expand on it and iterate. It's not the end of the world. That's right. Yeah, if we come up with other things that we want to add to this after the fact. I suspect these kind of small things are not controversial by the means of just like, you know, so we can just casually agree through pull requests and on small additions. Completely agree on. Okay, any other questions or comments. Any objections to us voting I guess it would be where we're at this point. I mean we're talking about approving this pull request with the two additional changes which is adding this requirement about being on the TSC mailing list and the GitHub org. And adding the missing s. It's funny after all, you know, so many people looking at it is like we still miss it and it's like, oh wait. But it's good. Yeah. So I'm happy to approve this of course. All right, so shall we take that as a motion or no. Do we have a second. Second. All right. Thanks Nathan. If you want to lead us to vote, it doesn't have to be roll call vote but just the. Yeah. All those who wish to abstain. Say abstain or some. All those in. Who wish for the motion not to pass. Please say nay. And all in favor say aye aye captain. Motion passes. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Ray. And thanks for putting that together for us and for all of the input that we had from the TSC on that particular issue. So as far as I know, we don't have any, any additional. TSC business this week, but before we get to the task force discussion. Is there any TSC business that we should be talking about that I did not know about or did that include in our agenda. I did put this issue on and then Dano. File to pull request. I would just like the TSC to, you know, read this over and add comments on Dano's pull request. We don't have to discuss it in this meeting. Okay. Thanks for that. I will. I think we have a little bit of a review. Is that pull request 33? I think it was. Yeah, 33. All right. So yeah, pull request 33 on the TSC repo. We'll make sure we include that on the discussion items for next week. But feel free to have a look at that before we get to next week. Any other TSC business that anybody would like to bring up at this point. All right. See nobody coming off mute or raising their hands. I will take that as a no. Jim. I guess it is up to you to walk us through the task force discussion for project help dashboards. Sounds good. Thanks, Tracy. Let me start sharing. Okay. So I created the task force page and there will be a page for today's minutes. But I guess just as a refresher for everyone for the background of this. This thread. We were talking about project reports in early in January. And there was a follow up action to. To think about what kind of data can we pull pull together. To generate some sort of. Report for every project. Whenever the TSC needs to make decisions on the health status of a project. This could be a status change on the project from incubation to active or vice vice versa. Or for laps to to go into incubation. So I think that if we have the right types of data, then a lot of decisions can be made much easier and faster. So there's already pretty good sources of such data, such as the insight. By Linux foundation. And there's also previous efforts in particular made by Tracy and others. To generate reports based on GitHub data. So this effort is to kind of pull together all the, all the thinking and get this. Get this. Take it to the, to the finish line basically. So we can have these be hosted somewhere. And there's something that can be embedded in every report just by default. So every, every report will have this be automatically generated from all the data sources. So that's the, that's the thinking behind this effort. And there's a running issue in GitHub that has got contributions from many people. Thanks for everybody who's participated. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. And then the result of the discussion we've got so far. Is captured. Here. On this page. But I want to start with the high level goals. So we can talk about it and agree. And then we can get into. The details. We can also present rich set of data. About a project can be both top level projects and labs. And enable data driven decision making at TSC. Specific tasks to be completed. Number one, we need to define the types of data that makes sense. This has been what. The participants on this effort have been focusing on. The types of data that would help with the decision making. Is it on code? Is it on a person? Is it on activity? That sort of thing. And then we should decide how to collect that kind of thing. Given the data we believe are useful. We're to find it how to collect them. And based on the discussions we've got so far, some of them. Will be available programmatically. But others we may have to resort to manual. Contribution manual collection. For the list of deliverables. For this task force. I think we should. Document the decisions. In the GitHub issue. Or maybe there's other better format. To document. What we decided on. And we should discuss with the Linux foundation insight. IT team. About enhancing the dashboard and the gathering of the data. And generating reports. For the data. Such capabilities are missing today. There's a lot in there, but some key capabilities are still missing. And for the. If we have data that has to be collected manually. Then we need to publish some sort of recommended practices. And we can collect them. I like to think we could accomplish everything in three months. If that's not. If that turns out to be too optimistic. Probably. Six months. At most. And we should time box it. So. Let's let's. Let's look at what we've got so far. So this is just capturing the input from the previous discussions in the. In the, in the issue. So. I can go through these items and, but everybody, please feel free to jump in. On any of these points. And we can discuss more. So. We put this in edit mode. Okay. So the first one, first category is community. I think that's, that's no brainer that it's a key success. To the, to any projects is a diverse. Active community. That cares about the code base. So we've got five subcategories and underneath it. Growth. Is the community growing diversity. Is it looked after by a single organization. Or does it have a diverse source of contributions. Which tend to make the project more viable in the long run. Retention is for contributors. Do they feel their input are, are being respected being valued and their contributions are getting to the main branch and getting to customers hence. So they're delivering value. I'll skip maturity to the end because I was having trouble. Articulate articulating this. So maybe someone else can help with this one. Responsiveness is kind of. Tied to allow the others is how responsive is the current contributor group. To, to potential contributors. Maybe they reached out on this court or through a PR. Are they, are they given. Attentions are due diligence being given to their, to their contributions. So. Maturity, I, I feel like this came from David. I don't know if David is on. Yeah, I'm here. Can speak to this. Yeah, go ahead. So basically I, my final maturity was it gives context to the other stats there. So for example, if you're a brand new project to have only been around for a month or two. Your stats are very likely going to look different from somebody who's perhaps, you know, been around for project that's been around for several years and has a different. The community is going to look different, right? I mean, I think. For example, that new project. Probably won't have the same sort of organizational diversity. So it helps give context, right? I think something that might be a red flag. If you're a more mature project, for example, if you, if you didn't have organizational diversity after three years, for example, that might be a red flag. Whereas if you don't have organizational diversity and you just started, that's not a flag, right? I mean, it's natural for a new project that just came from one organization, for example, to not have that diversity yet. So I think it's just a way to help set context for those other projects. And I meant diversity here or maturity here in the sense of. You could measure it simply by age, for example, or the stage, you know, an incubated project is going to be less mature in this sense than a graduated project. So that's all I meant by that. Okay, gotcha. That makes sense. So I guess this means maturity is more of a more of a qualifier rather than a category by itself. Well, Jim, I would, I would add specifically, maybe a couple of bullets here, one around when was the first code commit. And then maybe another around frequency of releases. Yeah. Okay. Because I think a more mature project is, well, I think when you're, when you're, like if you look at fabric, right, I think they have quarterly releases. That's a pretty mature project.  Versus, you know, maybe a newer project hasn't quite figured out when they should do releases or how often or how they manage that whole process. So I think, you know, that's the sort of thing that I think about when I say frequency of releases. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So I think that they are able to stick to the published release schedule that reflects the maturity. Yeah. Yeah, definitely make sense when you are working on still working on like core foundation of architecture. You could easily step into unforeseen complexities and previously published schedule will be blown out of the water. So if it's a mature code base and it's just adding handsman, then it's much easier to stick to the schedule. Yeah, that makes sense. Any other comments on, on these aspects on community itself. Are we missing any important aspects? As far as the health indicators of the community itself. Okay. Yeah. We can always revisit this later. So I'll continue. For the code aspect. That's obviously another important. Dimension for project is the code itself. And so far we've got two categories. One we call usefulness. Which is how are the general community reacting to this project's functionality. It can be really cool. Can have a lot of coding there, but if people are not using it, it's indicated that it's either way ahead of its time. Or maybe there's a better solution somewhere else. So. Usefulness is our, is this the right solution for the right problem. Is the, is the problem that's being addressed. A real problem. How many people are struggling with it. So that's, that's the, that's the usefulness aspect. Notice that we didn't really capture. Some sort of. Popular aspect for code. How many lines of code is in the project. How active is the code being pushed. I don't think it's. A necessary good indicator to the health status of a project, because you can be working on something, you know, just among a few people that pushes ton of code and, you know, there are 10 PRs every day. But if, if you are the ones only, you are the only ones who care, who care about this code base for a long time. This is not very useful to the general, general community. Okay. Jim, I, on that point, I do think the commit rate is important and how it changes over time for a project. I don't think that's captured anywhere here. Commit rate. How many lines of code are being pushed in. Or number of commits per month or something like that. And then you can look at that over time. Like in the fabric reports, I always put a commit for the quarter number and then I compare it to the previous year so we can kind of get a feel for, is it less active or more active? Gotcha. I guess that's, it feels like a different dimension. Because your fabric, the usefulness is out of the question. So that's, that being established first, I think things like commit rates is a useful indicator, right? Yeah, I agree. It's probably not under the usefulness category, but I think somewhere we should capture it. Yeah. We need something placeholder. Think of something to call this. It could be like base metrics or something because it's kind of a fundamental metric. Yeah. Well, maybe to say something more about that. The production readiness and the usefulness is really trying to measure the growth of the project. This metric seems to be monitoring for when a project might cool down or when a project might be starting to become less interesting for whatever reason. So there's probably a few other statistics we could put in here that might be a little bit different. But I think that's a good point. Yeah. I think that's a good point. And Jim Hart has his hand up. I don't know if you're able to. Sorry. Yeah. I wasn't able to. Okay. I'll make sure to keep track of that. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. Hard to go ahead. Hey, Jim. So I like this. One thing that I don't see mentioned here that I think is important and I don't know where we want to put it is documentation. I don't know whether that goes under code community or what. But I think it's an important thing. And we should have some. It should be included in this document. I agree. How many people can get their hands on how easy or difficult it is. That's a. It's pretty critical. I guess this would be more of a manual or subjective. Measurement. Right. The quality of the dogs. I guess we're mainly referring to the quality of the dogs. Right. Well, sure. But just the existence of documentation too on various different things, right? Okay. So yeah, both. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And Bobby has her hand up as well. I'd like to, I'd like to help you out with that piece because we're working. We have a task force in the learning materials development working group right now to create some kind of badging that will fit into the existing structure. So we'll talk later, but I would like to be a part of that piece because our task force will be reporting on that shortly. I appreciate that. So we can talk in more details how to sort of wrap these aspects into a into a badging criteria. And have it be captured in the more concise manner. That's great. So we haven't talked about this, this part. I believe this was brought up by heart during the discussion. Production readiness. It's kind of related to the usefulness, which would naturally lead to this being used in production and the team working on making it production ready. So obvious indicators include has it been a 1.0 release? What's the test coverage performance reliability tests? And I guess documentation is somewhat captured here. Yeah. So this would apply more to the top level projects, but even for labs, a good documentation would be a pretty big factor to be considered when this lab is brought up for proposal to become incubation. Okay. So I guess overall, do we feel pretty good about the aspects on the code aspect? Anything else we should consider? So, Jim, I don't know what is the best category to put this in, but you probably might consider something that is related to reflects the innovation around the project. So for example, the amount of, you know, research citations and research publication that is around the area. The technology that the project has been developing is producing. So it's not directly the code, but it's, you know, we are working in a blockchain area that is kind of, you know, everything is in a distributed system, cryptography, consensus, and you know, it's supposed to be quite a lot of research work around this effort. So I think that this indicator might reflect the innovation around the project and the direction the project is heading towards. So do you think it makes sense it falls under usefulness? Maybe this is more a research effort. So even though it's not being picked up by regular users, but it generates research publications and it's being cited in other people's work. Feels like this belongs under usefulness. So it might reflect usefulness, but I think that, you know, it might, it might be worth to basically devote a completely separate section that, you know, stands for innovation because you know, a healthy project, in my opinion, has to innovate once in a while. And, you know, if you will be able to capture the level of innovation that brought up by the project might be, you know, might be good. Yeah, I think this is a good topic. We can measure it, you know, reasonably well by looking at like E print or archive for all of the other like research publication websites. This measures, you know, academic interest in something and it will let us know sort of like, you know, what people who are interested in the most cutting edge technology that we have in the most cutting edge technology are, you know, are following great.  And I think it's a good metric to measure as Artem put it sort of how cutting edge something is. Yeah, okay. That makes sense. I'm referring to the AR XIV. Yeah, that's what I was trying to spell. No worries. I only managed the three letters of that. Nathan has this end up as well. Yeah, go ahead. So the classic quote is you manage what you measure. And so I like how we've kind of separated some categories here of the different numbers and what we think that they're useful for because one of the dangers here is if we put the wrong numbers in front of the wrong audiences, they'll try to optimize for things that might not be healthy. For example, it would be, it would probably be a bad thing if they tried to maximize their e print. AR XIV numbers by themselves. Or if they tried to increase a number at the expense of the stability of their community. So I wonder if once we finish kind of this, all the things we might want to look at, if it would be good for us to split this kind of dashboard of statistics into more than one category, because some of these things are things we would want to put in front of maintainers and say you should optimize for these, but some of them are not because they could lead to optimizing the wrong things for sustainability. That makes sense. You're saying if a project is not really driven for innovation, they shouldn't be staring at the starboard dashboard where this category is always zero. Well, or likewise, an early stage project might really need to be focused on how people are contributing and how often are they contributing, but a stable project might need to say we need to get people to bundle their commits better because the thing we need to optimize for is maintainer burden as opposed to onboarding more people. So it feels like we need to give some thought to the life cycle of the project and which statistics are most important when, because if we can help the maintainers focus on the right things, it will make the job a lot easier if we focus on everything, it will make the job a lot harder. Yeah. Do you think this captured your concern here? Sure. Okay. Cool. Appreciate that. I will point out that this document is in edit mode. So like other TSC members should feel free to jump in. Yep. Definitely. Thanks for that reminder. Okay. Let me go ahead and date. Cool. I just meant in terms of, you know, we do, we, multiple people can edit at the same time. Yeah. So other people wanted to jump in here and help edit. So I guess for today's call, I'd like to focus on making sure these dimensions are as complete as we can manage. And then we can, we can use follow up calls to talk about detailed measures to collect them. So I guess on both categories, are there any other things we should consider or is there a complete new categories where we're missing here? There's a couple of early pipeline interests, things that sometimes are worth looking at. And sometimes they're not like how many stars or forks there are in their repositories. How many people have signed up for the mailing list or how many, how many users are inside of the chat channels where it may not indicate actual activity, but it might indicate that there are folks, we have the opportunity to invite to create that activity. So. Trying to capture. So you're saying there could be a different dashboard that is presented to early, early state projects. Well, when I said that, I said it a lot like, if you remember the statistics page that Rai showed us before, I talked about kind of a new contributors versus mature contributors versus inactive contributors. There's this kind of people who are poking around expressing interest. Kind of part of the contributor pipeline of people who just are, they're signing up for the mailing list and they're lurking or they've starred the repository because they want to watch to see what might be happening next. If we think of the maintainers as kind of managing a pipeline of new contributors that they have the potential to onboard seeing a lot of activity at this stage of the pipeline might mean it's time to invite people to do something or go go in your ticket repository and label a bunch of things as good first bugs. If you see a bunch of people kind of wandering by and starting to stop and stare, it's a chance to invite them to join. Yeah. So that's more of not measuring the health but helping the providing the data to the maintainers so they can better grow the community. So this is not so much helping the TSCs to judge is more to help the maintainers to grow. Yeah. And for me, that's ultimately that's what the TSC is trying to do and measuring as well, isn't it? I guess, yeah, I guess that's correct. Okay, so. And Jim, I added up on the maturity section. I don't know if this is right place for it or it's a good measure maturity, but the number of good first issues. Nathan, when you said that that popped into my head is that maybe we would want to be able to look at as well. Yeah. So we're saying a mature project should have more of these are the other way around. I think that a mature project should have them because it indicates that they're willing to work with others. And I don't know maybe it goes under a different. Maybe it's not maturity, maybe it's something else, but I just feel like it says something about the community if they're willing to bring on new contributors and mentor those contributors through those good first issues. Gotcha. So this is kind of a, is the community is the project friendly to new contributors. Yeah, that's probably a good way of looking at that. So maybe it's a completely different sort of metric under community. And heart has this hand up as well. Yeah, I was just going to suggest exactly your last point there, Tracy. I think this is really important. And I think we could have a whole category on ease of new contributions or sort of new person onboarding. Great. We would like projects to have sort of smooth ways for new people to get involved. So, you know, good first issues is just one of these things, right? There are a lot of other different things that some projects do to help new contributors. So yeah, I think this is worth the whole category. Or do you think this captures that category? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Thanks. That's great. I was just going to challenge whether that's a different category than responsiveness. I think how this is a, how you respond to new contributors is, is an important metric of responsiveness. And I think one of the things that we often see in one of the why of how we measure time to resolve PRs and time to respond to questions is to make sure that there's not kind of a, a hidden decision-making cabal inside of the project where some folks get their issues responded too quickly and others folks get their issues perpetually ignored. Because that's a good sign that the project is having internal conflict or is likely to fork or have other troubles. And I think these friendliness numbers kind of all fit into that kind of a category of, is everyone committed to working together and responding to one another? Art Tracey, what do you think? Well, you know, responsive how we've, you know, I'm, the way we've defined responsiveness right now is, is more about like, time to communication. You know, if we want to make a more general definition of like community responsiveness, that's fine. You know, I thought it, I thought responsiveness had meant something more specific, but if we want it to be something broader, that's fine too. You know, however we classify these things or incorporate them into categories, you know, it's not as important as it sort of just all being mentioned. So I'm really fine with however we want to present this. How about this? I think maybe there's a, the aspect you guys are trying to capture Tracey Hart is how easy it is for someone to self to get self started to, to sort of know this is something they can, they can get their hands on before even talking to people. This is sort of their first impression kind of thing. Whereas responsiveness is more, once a contributor has done something, after having, you know, evaluated this, then how are they being treated by the, by the maintainer group? Because if you didn't have a good list of these things, it'll be pretty difficult for a contributor to to get started, right? And then responsiveness wouldn't be reflected at all, because there's no communication. I think they go hand in hand. I think that, you know, if somebody's starting a first issue, they're probably going to be asking a lot of questions and then their time to get a response on, say discord is going to impact whether or not they continue working in that issue or not, right? Was that first impression that they got of the community, something that was a good first impression, or it really just turned them off completely and they decided they'd go spend their time where they, you know, felt more welcomed into the community. And sorry, Aruna, I started speaking before I noticed you had your hand up. No worries, Tracy. So I assume like I can speak now. I think since we are on this topic, right, one of the hard things right now for us to measure or even know something's happening or there is, when we know there are contributors and they understand the code base and they would like to proceed with the contributions. However, they're not aligned to the project's roadmap or what project maintainers currently think of, right? So there is definitely conflict of interest among those contributors and how would they like to answer them or where would they like to take it up from there? So I have heard such concerns earlier in a couple of projects, but I don't know. I think that's a bigger can of worms. If we were to discuss that topic and I don't have answers as to how to measure or how can we even make understand that something like this exists internally to those projects. So just to make sure I understand, Aaron, you are saying, do we want to detect the situation where there are conflicting priorities within the maintainer group of a project? Right, this is to prevent either of them from stopping to contribute or even to prevent them from creating a new fork of the project altogether. Okay. Splitting up the community. So have we seen evidence of this happening either now or before? I mean, this is definitely a theoretical possibility, but do we believe this is happening and it should be a concern? Like how important, how high priority do you think this is? So I can answer if something like this happened and to my understanding is I could see something like this happening in the past. Is it still happening? I don't have an answer for that in terms of priorities since we are not seeing it anymore. I mean, we should take it up sometime, but maybe not as a priority at this present. Yeah, I feel like this is more on the case-by-case basis. I can think of, you know, I don't mind, you know, giving this example because I think it's public knowledge. The split between Ethereum and Mainnet and Ethereum Classic, right? That's probably a good example of the community splitting into quite independent code base because of their priorities and philosophies. Sometimes it's not necessarily a good thing. Sometimes maybe it is a good thing to allow the different approaches to become different communities. So I feel like this should be evaluated on the case-by-case basis. Dana. On the Mainnet Classic split, I think it's a bit more nuanced than that, but basically Classics become a downstream distribution of Mainnet. So that's another way that communities might split. One might stop being, you know, the main one and one might become a downstream and just do what they want on top of it because you know the code base is split. All the code for the most part flows from Mainnet work into Classic work. Yeah, I agree. The majority of the enhancement still applies to both code base. Yeah, definitely agree. I mean, I think communities could split for totally benign reasons too that are actually quite good, right?  Sort of in the forked off both Aries and Ursa, right? And I think those were both positive forks, right? It was, hey, here's this component. You know, we're using it, but other people want to use it too. You know, people that don't want to use sort of our main thing, why don't we fork it off? So it's easier for them to use, right? I think, you know, those were, you know, I think certainly positive examples of projects splitting off, right? Yeah. Well, in some sense, that's what gets at the thing that's hard to measure here, which is a project needs to be friendly enough to new ideas so that those new ideas can incubate within the project, as opposed to having to create their own new space outside of Hyperledger to explore that, that new or interesting idea, right? Because it's that's the paradox of open sources that the easier you are to fork within your project, the less likely someone will have to make a new venue or a new community in order to explore their idea. And what we're trying to get at here is, is there's that kind of conflict or sheer that makes people want to leave? Or is there that kind of collaboration and friendliness that makes people want to say, I disagree with you, but I want you to watch and see if I'm doing something dangerous at this point. Yeah, definitely agree there. So I put that under friendliness to new contributors or new ideas. Any other big ideas? I guess we have one more minute and then we should wrap up and give the floor back to Tracy. So we probably should talk about the cadence of the call. I guess I'll model the other task forces to have one off cycle call. Probably should self organize to decide on the timing of that through discord. Cool. So I guess, right, you would have to create the channel for us, right? The task force. That, that ability has been delegated to all members with the TSC role. So. Oh, great. Feel free. We'll do. Thanks, right? Awesome. So I'll publish this and then I'll coordinate with those who are interested to continue the discussion on a off cycle call schedule. And then we can go from there. I'll share everybody's input today. And I'll give it back to you, Tracy. All right, thanks, Jim. And thanks for taking us through this. So next week. The things that I know that are great to be on the agenda are. They've just all slipped my mind. They were right there. Another gun. So the pull request from Dano. And then I think we're back to the beginning of the task forces. So. We'll be talking about project families next week. So if you have any additional input on the project families that you haven't added to any of the wiki pages or the word document, please do that. And we'll make sure that we can continue that discussion next week. So with that, I'm going to close the call. So thanks for attending today.