Boom, we're live with Daniel M. Ingram. Hi, Dan. Hey, it's great to be here So pumped for this. Oh Wow, yeah, Dan's been crushing it in Synthesizing he just has he distilled all of Buddhism pretty much into relatable and straightforward approach and then You know now he's up to incredible work with Creating a bridge between science and spirituality to mean stream awakening and to make it more relatable for Science to have its like clinical hands in And to funnel more funding towards it and to change the DSM five of to upgrade it and I'm I'm in awe at what you're up to right now. I am you're doing it. That's You're living it into being Well, thanks. It's it's it's exciting work I'm lucky to be blessed with an amazing team of people that helped me with this and are excited about this So it's actually it's a huge community effort It's been actually there have been so many people who have been excited about some of these science spirituality Clinical crossover projects that it's actually been incredibly easy to get people to to sign up and say yes and start pitching in time Right, I mean it's beyond due for it to happen So it was really just like helping to light and facilitate and sort of nurture a spark that really was just Ready to blaze and dry grass not to you Sorry for those of you who are enduring forest fires and the burning of the West Coast or whatever I apologize that was triggering but also but in terms of like my book synthesizing all of Buddhism No, no, no, no my book is like this much of Buddhism Buddhism is this huge vast Amazing rich complicated thing which is why I actually go out of my way to reference a lot of other people Who did a lot of other great work to to synthesize other parts of it I really just tried to focus on the things that I like to my eye hadn't been done quite as well or in the way I would have done them, you know, but and focus on core strengths But really there's it's been a huge effort to modernize upgrade translate and bring Buddhism into The you know Western context so we can relate to it and it can relate to us and we come up with something that works So yes, it's again. That's also a huge collective project as well. I'm just one little part of it. But yeah, thank you So let's put science of spirituality into in the synthesis and all that good stuff into a little bit more downstream in our Conversation and right now let's hone in on like you just indicated a moment ago Would you say that much of what you synthesized and distilled around Buddhism was around Theravada Buddhism and Then the difference being then there's also Mahamudra or Mahayana Vajrayana is that sort of the distinction that you would make and then we'll get into what exactly that is Yeah, definitely. So I mean actually I'm interested Influenced by a lot of traditions. So if you picked up my book you would find Obviously some pretty strong Theravada influences, which I'm you know, make no bones about I'm very excited about those It's some great tech and I think in some ways some of the most practical and clinically applicable It's it's got a straightforwardness to it Zen is cool mysterious and poetic and kind of like, you know Non-mappy which is super groovy in its way and quite profound and then the Tibetans are like super flowery and ultra complicated And lots of robes and hats and colors and deities and all that but the Theravada You know, even though it actually is super complicated in its in its forms And actually I was just reading a really cool book called esoteric Theravada that actually talks about how Complicated and rich the Theravada sort of used to be and still is in a few places But it was actually very Vajrayana ish in terms of these elaborate systems of symbols and Pali words throughout the body and medicine and channels and Applications and characteristics and it actually used to be much stranger and actually still in a lot and more interesting and rich and diverse and in still and actually some places if you go and See how this is actually operationalized in places like Thailand particularly as you sort of get up and like the northwest and some of the More remote areas like it's very mix of shamanic and deities and magic and and all kinds of stuff mixed in It's it's not straightforward and you can still see Vajrayana and Mahayana influences even in it even though they tried to kind of like get rid of all of that and the 1800s and Thailand and stuff and some other kind of reform movements. It's still there So actually Buddhism is way more complicated than most people think it is It's this rich melting pot of diversity and even within single traditions amazing complexity I mean like just if you said Zen or Pure Land or whatever These are huge complicated traditions with many different schools teachings texts emphases You know tips and tricks and so anyway, so it's it's an amazingly rich thing And then like how that relates to Vedanta or Shaiva Tantra or you know, what is Shingon? Where does that fall in? It's kind of the you know and how did Taoism and the bone tradition or bone How did these get blended into all of that mix? Right, this is it's much more organic than people generally take it for so which is exciting right anyway Okay, so there's a view of this where Carla Jaspers calls us the axial age and there's this explosion of spiritual awakening and the Way that Buddhism in a sense can be visualized as this like fractal out similar to what you see like with Hinduism also very fractal doubt and Now like you also indicate what's the relationship between things like these mystic schools like Dzogchen and Zen with Advaita Vedanta and with Gnosticism or Sufi metaphysics and then there's all of these like mystic like Union direct union with the God and So so that's that's a core I would say that that was the core thing that I was pointed to in the last couple of years of studying Which led me to recognize myself as it and us all as it undergoing an exploration of of infinite potential and So then that's probably the core thing to remember as you look at all these little fractals of the spiritual traditions since that Axial age explosion is looking for the mystic schools looking for the ones that talk about the direct Experiential path to unite with the kingdom of God inside of you and how to do that That process so I like that point and then I like I Like the practicality of Theravada specifically. I think it's very practical I'm Vajrayana also has lots of practicality to it As do many of the schools, but specifically with I'd like For you to walk us through this so people can get this because we love you and the reason why the reason why we're doing this in many ways Is to help distill something relatable for you to help you with your everyday life So let's go through this. Would you say that the first principle is Becoming aware of breath and therefore by becoming aware of breath what we do is become Regained sovereignty we regain will from what was more scripted subconscious like behavior Well, there's tons of places to start I mean breath is a great object in a great beginning and it's used in a lot of traditions for a reason But there's so many other possible starting points I mean, you know TM starts with a mantra and some people start with visualizations or actually I've used I like Candle flames these days and light casinos which are as old actually it's almost certainly pre-Buddhist tech So that almost certainly comes out of whatever was there before Buddhism Which would be some old up on a shodds and big, you know, et cetera influenced technologies But yeah, and some people start with prayer and some people just tune in naturally They're not using any object at all And they just enjoy the the inner journey of seeing what is there when they just look without filters And then of course Zogchen and Mahamudra would just start with sort of well Actually, those are really complicated traditions I should be careful here But the pop versions of Zogchen and Mahamudra should would start with just kind of being in the space as object and result And then you get the you know the non dual-pointing traditions that just say this is it You know, and they're right, you know, but there is more to it But still they're right And so if you were talking this is like, you know, Adi Ashanti, you know, I shouldn't speak for him But it's gonna be just like what is the thing that makes you think this isn't it in general like without a real Necessary focus. I mean, you know, he's more, you know, I shouldn't speak for these people But you get the idea and so there are actually lots of ways not only there are lots of paths up the mountain as it were But there's a lot of places to start on each of these paths and even within the terravada You know, some might start noting the breath and is the breath here is the breath there And some might start with walking and some, you know And then Zazen would just be just sitting kind of and practice enlightenment Which is also kind of an immediate pointy tradition and and others are like very inquiry based like who am I? What is this? You know, they're using a question to focus you back on what is observation or what is awareness or consciousness And I actually think that any of those and more could be interesting places to start the thing that got me into This was visualizing large fears that I would practice flying between that was the first thing that really made my Contestants explode and start having weird things when I was a teenager and that was just a homebrewed Weird visualization to have better flying dreams, you know Like so like and I know other people who without anything to start having insights And then you get the reports of the spontaneous Realizers who just woke up and they weren't doing anything there were some of them just kids, right? Like Poojaji the Buddha of luck now apparently was just seven and kind of something changed And then like he thought that was just normal and then when he got older He realized no way to second most people don't perceive the way the world the way I do. Oh wait This is oh wait. Maybe this is awakening. Yeah, and you know seems to have been so, you know There's lots of places to begin anyway, sorry for Whoa getting that was really great It's because to give us that broad buffet of entry points also enables people to realize the Straight up diversity of entry points, which is huge, but what is most practical for? Unfreezing will and regaining sovereignty. It seems to become aware of this sort of Bell curve of arising and passing if you sort of see yourself as the sky the very simple child like analogies is like Awareness is the sky and then the thought the thought cloud appears and Then it disappears, but you have to become aware of it appearing and disappearing Rather than biting and fixating and grasping and craving and averting and that that seems to be the most Would you say that that's the most sort of simple child like? Cloud versus sky just the position and and working on the breath work to help you with that Yeah, so each of those metaphors every time you introduce a metaphor or concept or a frame You do some good things and you do some not so good things. So for example I would totally agree that the ability to see thoughts come and go as objects is like one of the most critical things and the tradition of mindfulness For example, which you know Is this a very simple technique? Takes that and uses it for all its worth as do a lot of the direct pointing or some of the inquiry things or even Koans just when you see the thoughts of the koan as object that obviously in its way is profound and So yes in some ways that is one of the most critical things and then if you can actually Deepen that a little bit and notice all the intentions that make up thoughts like the sort of the the the thing Okay, I'm gonna move my hand I move my hand and then the recognition I did move my hand and all that monitoring process along the way that back and forth iterative Really fast thing those are also kind of in the categories of thought to most reasonable You know by most reasonable ways of thinking about it though Others and so like each of those super quick little thoughts like those can you know the things the mental impressions that think they know something Well, they're actually just little mental impressions here that don't look really anything like the things They thought they knew and the intentions to create things just arose naturally So if you actually take that basic concept of seeing thought as thought and they come and go far enough It could totally deconstruct the sense of time of doer of knower of beer of continuous entity But then when you put it against the frame of a stable space in through which things come and go you create a bit of a problem And it's a problem that early on and in the intermediate stages is actually a benefit because it points to something really skillful about an open vastness of experience that is much a More able to deal with little petty stuff in a way that's not all contracted into it and doesn't activate the default mode networks That's super cool, right? But you create a problem later on down the road for those of us who also would say that space is Transient that awareness is transient So what you get is a side effect of then a lot of people get very good at solidifying a sense of a stable space is a watching Consciousness that then has no changing elements to it, which those of us who are hardcore taravadans Would they say yeah, but you could see that come and go to and when you do it'll do something better So that's where suddenly I've pissed off some Vedantists and people who think there's a stable luminous all ground my apologies But just realize there's debates in this tradition and you know do your own experiment and see what works for you And at various times like that kind of open awareness concept can be incredibly skillful So even sometimes it's worth dealing with the later side effects or golden chains that you might create when you introduce that Still can be quite a good idea to get people through some of the rougher stages and help them get some space around their challenges and Traumas and and neuroses and all that so so definitely I would agree. That's that's a really key point. Yes cool, so almost as though What we feel For the mainstream is like where for example I was five years ago and where typically you people like you were decades ago were like, you know, how do I? suffer less Is a good question like how do I experience more happiness and joy and peace and so the the answer that we're providing is becoming Aware of the simple childlike Analogies like we're using where the thoughts are objectified as clouds that arise and pass in the sky of awareness But not to get fixated on that analogy because what ends up happening as you unpack more and more deeply What the natural state is of existence of reality and so I love that I feel like that's a key insight is to is to recognize that you're creating a Ground that you want to actually not be fixated on Because then it allows you to move past that ground as you unlock deeper and deeper insights that free you more and more Yeah, okay, so that's beautiful Okay, and then now as You become more sovereign and you feel like okay, I used to this is an analogy that I feel like is so common for people Sometimes before you know it This is probably one of the most common ones is before you know it you have you're eating a a pint of ice cream before you know it right and Then what typically happens is Maybe You used to just go through the whole thing and now what you've started to notice is you're halfway through it and now you're like I Shouldn't be eating this just because I'm sad and like I want to eat this right now And so you now you're halfway through so now you've got there are worse mechanisms by the way like Something worse maybe the ice cream is better unless you're a bad diabetic in which case be careful kids But you know like they're okay, but yeah, I hear you sure Cool, so disclaimer. Yes And so we have this this example where you feel like you're actually regaining sovereignty You're regaining will because now you're only halfway through and you've realized that and now next time what is What's what's arising is your You realize that the thought cloud of I should eat ice cream right now arises and you see it You have like this awareness of seeing it and then you're you're not biting and you're not fixating on it And then it dissolves and before you know it you're like, I don't I didn't really actually want to eat ice cream I just watch that appear and disappear And so okay so now you can see these like practical examples or for for guys another Common one is that they feel like this this primal Erection and they feel like this primal desire to want to go and watch porn and masturbate and if you sort of just relax yourself and you can sort of watch your your hard Erection dissolve you can watch that urge to want to go in and masturbate dissolve and Another one for guys. That's pretty common is that they feel like that they want to go and Do stuff like men are all about doing and acting and what happens if you just sit on the couch and do Nothing what happens is that you become more and more like relaxed into us again a very Spacious sense of in a sense emptiness like you're watching things arise and pass without acting and you're just noticing the nature of your mind Itself and so you're regaining will you're regaining sovereignty by doing these styles of acts that you're typically Program to not do and in doing so you're gaining will you're gaining sovereignty and then you're you feel like you're Becoming more awakened and you're less conditioned. So this seems to be like the most simple mainstream Visuals and relatable examples. Do you feel like that's resonance stuff like that? Absolutely and there's a great book on this by the way called the craving mind by a Judd Brewer, which I just Yes, it talks about a lot of this kind of tech and he's done a lot of work with addiction and cravings and stuff So very skillful Cool work and you know back to a bunch of neuroscience as well. So that's neat and And so definitely in terms of a practical practical example and sovereignty is a very interesting word Because the the relationship between the sense of control and the sense of will and ego and the sense of natural unfolding is This very strange Thing in the world of meditation and spirituality, right with all these I mean practically people not only notice Wow, I seem to have no control of my thoughts or my body But they also then will notice weight as I meditate more I do seem to have more control of my thoughts and my body But wait, I'm noticing more and more the degree to which I both do not and do Have control of my thoughts and my body And so it's this very weird thing and then like his spiritual Awakening to gain complete control of everything is a truly separate entity that somehow seems to stand outside of all other Biological conditioning and causality as a true sovereign thing that somehow is a true self Separate from all conditioning or is it to recognize like no will but thine and to totally dissolve into the natural unfolding of the universe or whatever And the unfolding of the Dow or whatever. So there's so one just has to Realize that along the way One is likely to run into experientially very practically both skillful applications of the sense of will and control and the sense of sovereignty as you put it but also skillful appreciations of the natural unfolding of things and So that's one of those fascinating dances that there's endless schools of thought on and advice on but I just want to kind of point that out Right. So and both have their points Actually that the way the taravata kind of breaks this down Which I like a lot is basically the first so the taravata like going back to old taravata basic tech Three trainings right and actually a lot of the schools of buddhism would kind of appreciate the three trainings Or the eight spoke wheel the dharma or the eight-fold noble path which is broken down into three basic And the first one is sila or shila, which is going to be you know It can translate as ethics or morality or good behavior or something Which is basically skillful use of body speech and mind right, you know, right thought right livelihood, right action right speech those kinds of things and then So and then thinking about like and that basically Assumes that we have control of our bodies that we can follow precepts that we can direct our minds to things that we can Say better things or send love intentionally to other people or or intentionally try to be more autonomous in situations It very much has the assumption explicitly baked into it as a fundamental thing of will of sovereignty of doer that can do better That through paying attention can learn to do better in the face of this human mammalian experience And then there's the second training samadhi or you know concentration Which often is called shamatha practices or something which would be The the fact that with will we can suppress the hindrances of doubt and fear and anger and desire or whatever We can kind of push those away and instead calm down stay with our meditation objects Do something really deeply skillful with our minds that gets into you know Blissful or peaceful or exotic states of consciousness, right or do magic or whatever and but that's still very much expressly kind of involving a sense of will but now starting to get a little weird Because the higher genre is actually talk about with the dropping of applied and sustained effort and energy or attention You can get into the higher states So suddenly it's got this weird thing where you start off with the assumption of will and control and technique and And suppression of bad things and cultivation of good things But then to get farther you have to be able to kind of roll with the flow And so suddenly it's getting a little strange and then you get explicitly to the last training of insight or wisdom Which starts straight out of the gate with three characteristics that none of this is you that it's all just the natural unfolding Of causes and conditions that it all changes and there's no separate observer doer Controller beer but for most people to do that they kind of need to start with some will based assumptions, right And then even most of the like, you know, the catholic mystical tradition explicitly says You know, you try to purify yourself through effort and eventually god or jesus just takes over You know and divine spirit this comes through you and you find similar things and basically all the traditions because it's just part of the Weirdness of the spiritual path, right? Are you doing this? Is it doing this and where do those lines begin and end, right? So um, yeah, this the deep questions that are fun to explore in one's own heart-mind body system and space in general Yeah, i'm so happy that you took us there across the mystic traditions, there seems to be the similarity where there is a realization that the individuated firework has where it goes.  Yes, it is um, but then you realize that okay. Well, where can I actually unfreeze some of that will and choice and and pattern and behavior where I can actually I have more sovereignty to not in not grasp and not fixate and not be scripted and instead Focus like turn inward and recognize. Well, this is the kingdom of god. This is the dow This is it and so now in a sense That I am that that becomes Clearly me I unite with that force that I was the whole time But that was apparently veiled through what was maybe more limbic or more primal or more scripted styles of behavior And clouded choice. And so I love that sort of focus on first is unfreezing will and choice And then second is the relinquishing of said frozen The said will or choice that was regained into that metaversal dow As you could say, yeah, that's cool Great distinction Absolutely And and I think that's really important for mainstream to recognize is that You're both going to go through a process of knowing yourself and your unique frames of life and then Unfreezing more and more will and choice into both like self actualization and self realization Both and then you're going to go through a process of Surrendering that to the force that gave rise to you because you recognize that that's the same force that gave rise to everything And that it's all one intelligence Undergoing this dance with itself well, it's interesting how you use ontologies right because you you're you're It's it's fascinating to see the degree to which you're Kind of a died in the world perennialist in terms of your ontologies And if I can just talk about ontologies real quick because I think it's an important point Like I've probably said this before on some podcast But if if as a scientist or as a person who appreciates Bayesian thinking where you start with some hypotheses you put initial You know guesses that these things are true and then you do some Experiment that hopefully moves you in some direction to get a better sense of which of those might be true Like if someone said to me like here's four Hypotheses one is that this is all a matrix. This is all in a computer simulation speaking of simulations We had to bring that in somehow Right or two This is all the dream of the great god Vishnu or Brahma or Indra pick your favorite god You think is dreaming this or three. This is all solipsism that My mind or your mind or somebody's mind is actually creating all of this and there's just one of our brains That just happens to be doing this regardless of whether or not we recognize that Or four that that consciousness is some like emergent property of insate, you know Sorry insensate particles and forces hand wavy hand wavy hand wavy emergence that then leads to consciousness Right and so and someone said to me. Okay, you know pick One of those or like, you know assigned pretest probabilities to each of those. Well, I have no idea how to do that Right, which is more likely. I don't know. I'm not sure I could tell for certain and then Someone said, okay do an experiment that would then you know that hopefully good experiments will You know flush out bad priors and then lead towards truth Well, I don't even know what experiment to do and in my own practice. I have actually had You know Experiences that at least in the moment were unbelievably compelling in terms of I am in complete control Or this is totally just the dance of the unfolding universe or you know Like everything is totally just mind made and is all utterly up for grabs and seemingly is Constructed in arbitrary as anything or like no truth is truly this seems to be the unfolding of a divine Godlike unbelievable intelligence that can no create do All this and all power knowledge and wisdom and everything and unfolding and creation and destruction Are that not only come from that but are that and I've you know And all of this is dissolving emptiness and none of it truly exists and like I've had past life experience with where I was some massive being that could see parallel universes and see all these possible options of Pathways to go down and could then throw its life consciousness Somehow down one of those pathways that are considered optimal after eons of exploration So it is a totally multi universe and that seemed is incredibly compelling and psychologically transformative somehow And yet I've also had experiences that seem to say even this single universe cannot possibly hold up to scrutiny There can't even be anything other than this dissolving moment How is there there's no possible true past or true future and each of these experiences I've had as compellingly as I could possibly imagine such that in the moment They seemed like of course that is true to the very marrow of my bones or whatever and and and yet like Then I'm left with just pragmatism at this point Like what really helps lead to good outcomes and what seems to make a difference in terms of reducing suffering Um, I actually find that is interesting actually way more interesting now than any of the ontological questions except as various Adopted ontological frames might help you as a person given your conditioning or tradition or culture Or background or aesthetics or whatever Have better outcomes, right? So I actually think there are reasons for practically adopting certain ontologies Because I've seen people who just adopted one and fixed on it and it was unbelievably good for them No question and I've also seen people who thrive in the metaverse of meta ontologies and you know Trying them on and off like, you know people in a dressing room at a clothing store And just having fun with that like playing costume and dress up just because it's a good time and we can you know and so And so I can appreciate both of those perspectives, but just because you dance around the meta ontology verse You know very comfortably, which is great, you know, but just recognizing that there are other people that like No single ontologies and single traditions like do work well for them You know and that and this notion of doubt or confusion that comes from that is just really Confusing to them and so just sort of throw that out there Yeah This really also plays into the perfection as it is and so therefore there's not a There's not a there's not a tendency or a desire to go and change Said a configuration of what reality is right now Given any of these individuated fireworks And so this content is a mechanism that we generate together out of play and then and then out of somebody else's interest in The unfolding of what could be a higher possibility for themselves Potentially extract something useful from it and whatnot and so that's a critical lens to see things as is the The lens of both that all is perfect and the lens of the individuation that is using their unique ontology Cool And then the individuation that's able to thrive by switching between ontologies these different lenses of perception also cool And to like be able to see that rather than that You have to switch to seeing all the different lenses at any time. So that's really um critical because actually over time what will happen is that um potentially even across lifetimes is that the the mind will over time Decontract itself from the single viewpoint Towards the all the viewpoint of the all And that that's potentially what is uh unfolding is that The more that you see the all The more that you have a holistic take on the unfolding This is actually a good question to ask next is that Would it would it be fair to say that there is then a shift that goes from this egoic contracted separate energy? To what feels like a more free formless aware conscious energy And then from there there seems to be the the two-sided coin Of what is a an absolute empty nothingness and an absolute infinite creation And do you how do you feel about that um that style of kind of like notches back? Yeah, that's a pretty good map actually and um, yeah and recognize that just maps like that are going to have a cyclical component Right where most people will go through a lot of different like little cycles Like your shirt big cycles and super big cycles of kind of relating to Each of those kind of modes of appreciating things And I think Yeah, I think that circular nature is critical to point out because I think a lot of people Like after some big unit of experience were when like, you know, what I would call like a rising and passing away stuff Or maybe equanimity They then get into some experience where everything is kind of dissolving or disappearing or kind of not there They feel at one with everything and then that everything isn't stable and then wait What does that mean and then like this isn't stable and like and then all of a sudden It's all open and flowy and luminous and clear and divine again, and then it's all contracting again like Just recognize that is also the nature of this path kind of like weather And I think most I think where a lot of people go wrong particularly when they've run into some beginner meditation instructions or techniques or theories Is that they kind of assume Some linear progression of like more control or more concentration or more focus or more silence or more whatever And then reality doesn't do that And then their model wasn't quite Adaptable enough or their technique range or sense of tools and tricks in their tool bag Couldn't kind of adapt to the funny things that the universe then does which might be can very contracted or expansive or integrative or fragmented or dissolving or coalescing or Whatever because those are all things that experience does and can do them more and more and more dramatically as we get deeper into this Or people take psychedelics or have other powerful experiences through whatever modalities And just I think it's important to keep in mind that It's good to not be too fixed on one's models even one's models of progress Like I will go through, you know sovereignty and then I will go through the attachment of energy And then I will go through nothingness all this or something Right, but just like a lot of those kinds of themes may roll through at various points and then And because I think people can get sort of confused by the sense of order or hierarchy or whatever And most people have their preference for one some people super like unitive states Some people super like dissolving states like the more aversive types. Some people super like rapturous states the more you know So and some people super like yeah Really like expansive calm states, right? And so they'll kind of usually kind of gravitate towards a tradition that kind of Gives one primacy, right? But then reality might do all these other things that aren't the things they like the most or their tradition emphasizes the most And then I think that can be confusing to people So just recognize if you're we're all in this journey to some degree, right? Just you know Be able to have a tradition that can kind of roll with the range and be wary of pure perfectly linear progression models That are all going to work out like everybody thinks they will so if that's helpful not that all those experiences might not unfold in that progression They totally might yeah that's a really helpful insight because You're gonna end up cycling yourself into more advanced ways of perception And that that in a sense is kind of what the nature of reality feels like is this uh, is this Augmentation of perception over time basically and that the Now is that is that not to say that out of infinite exploration that there may be actually what appeared to be a period of Perception increasing in some way, but then also turning into a serial killer Which is actually deemed as not an augmentation in in perception So it's not always um necessarily portrayed that way, but as it as a general universal cosmological Phenomenon not necessarily at an individuated level, but at a universal cosmological phenomenon It does appear like awareness becomes more Aware of what Its point is of what the explorative point is of what's Of what's happening and then it does things like well you can yeah Please please hit that and then I'll I'll go into some of the other questions. It sounded like you had an insight there Yeah, so I mean in terms of cosmic when you say cosmic. Do you mean in time scale or in the size of space? What do you just so I react properly to the word? Like you mean over like eons or over What does that word mean to you? So I understand how you operationalize it And can address it. Yeah, good question early If we were to play with what appeared to be one of the most simple childlike ways of visualizing the nature of reality it seems like it's a A single infinite unified intelligence that in a sense refracts itself into differentiation based on The the generation of these Of these universes so generating these universes In its process of a play to differentiate itself as these entities In a sort of play in a sort of exploration of that infinite possibility and that in this refraction There's like an ascension that looks like a metamorphosis. It looks like the caterpillar turns into a butterfly and so that's what I would say is That appears to be the nature um Do you want to talk about some of the experiences you had that led you to those To those insights and how those happened. Do you ever talk about yourself on this podcast? Oh, you're so sweet. Um, I actually have a Along with these interviews. I do these like direct Disseminations of what feels like is the most like yeah And it actually I would I would say that this is becoming more and more important because um, we just had like Kurt Geimungal on the show who also Does these incredible interviews on theories of everything But now here's the thing is that are these interviewers and are these? Polymaths are these people that are scraping from science and spirituality I would say it's also beautiful for them to undergo a process of can I distill what I've learned Into these little 15 minute videos and stuff like that and so I would say that that's a really important process for people to do and so um, so just to hit the ball back for for a moment there is How does the what I shared with you those two analogies How does the that that that infinite intelligence? Refracting itself into the differentiation that then looks like a a metamorphosis in its ascension. How does that? resonate with you I have definitely had some experiences that would lend a lot of resonance with that kind of a view um in various contexts and I very much appreciate that kind of vibe and for people who have had those kinds of experiences However, you got to them. Um, I think they'll also be resonating with this and going well. Yeah, of course but I could also See how there might be totally different interpretations of experiences that could lead to those senses of a cosmically waking up evolving metamorphosis metamorphing and um embryo embryologically developing or maturing universal intelligence and so um Whereas one could see all of those as just I mean because you could get super tera vodney about this and go Well, actually those meanings are also just a rising Little fragments of stuff that happen as this natural unfolding of say The four, you know foundations of mindfulness or the aggregates or the six sensors You know or the one sense store where really there's just the primacy of immediate experience and one can find If one truly just looks at this is raw sense data as raw as we have access to obviously It's pretty pre-processed. It seems before we get it But that there is literally nothing but this unfolding immediate Experiential moment and any thoughts of a past or a future or a continuous evolving consciousness Or an intelligence are just these little meaning flakes that kind of Fragment and just occur in this immediate moment And so even one can find no continuous stable evolving intelligence that could become anything that could be anything Instead, we just find this immediate scintillating luminous empty transient present dance Right and so I could totally then throw that back on you and You know and but I I can appreciate the beauty of both and so I think I think those kinds of senses of developmental consciousness that have a sense of a past and a future to them And take those at face value Focusing on the meaning rather than the immediate essence of the experience That has mythic resonance that is super powerful and beautiful And plays to parts of myself that have experienced things that made me think stuff exactly like that and go well Yeah, and then there's another part of me that goes But yet to try to actually find any true past or true future or even stable present Is impossible and so how could there be anything that's continuous and actually evolving rather than just this and I have Deep mythic resonance with both of those and have gotten a lot of practical utility about exploring both so Just to rich it up a little bit. What are your thoughts? Oh gosh, that was so good. So it's almost like mythic resonance plus simply this both delightful And I think it really important and deep different sides of ourselves thrive On both of those kinds of ways of knowing and being so If you look at the work of rob burbea or plenty of people who have drawn on his stuff Or uh, yeah, you can you can see um a lot of people who are talking a number of podcasts I've been on talking about very validly that the mythic archetypal Sides of ourselves that respond to those kinds of big grand stories and explanations Regardless of anything about their immediate dissolvy emptiness or whatever like it's important to to to deeply explore those sides of ourselves Because that actually drives a tremendous amount of human behavior as well as wars over religion as well as incredibly visionary, you know next steps in technology and You know if you look at people who had these incredibly visionary mythic experiences like renai de kart or clearly newton or einstein And suddenly, you know our countless artists and poets and authors and mathematicians and you know like some they had some Vision of something like that and then something super cool and awesome came out of it Yes, right and and on the other hand so it would be it would be Cruel and and really missing half of the party to just simply this that you know Right, it would seem and yet from another freeing point of view to be able to simultaneously Have the option to simply this those incredibly mythic story things is also really valuable So I think it's good to have the optionality And the fluency to be comfortable in both realms as comfortable as any of us can be in any of this It kind of also reminds me of map and no map. Absolutely. That's the same problem. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I love that That's great. And so and that's good. That's brilliant. Yeah, that was so good. And then it also And then it also rings for this true Simultaneity So can you truly simultaneously be able to have both? A mythic resonance lens and to simply this lens or a map lens and a no map lens Simultaneously. Yeah, and obviously that's what reality is doing anyway But it is definitely possible to become more and more. Let's just say awake to that Yeah, no question perfect And eventually like they seem the same the the thoughts of myth at once can convey their full Full range human emotional deep, you know, psychological archetypal universal and you know consciousness or whatever resonance while being experienced as just Dissolving empty things now. That's actually what you know A lot of the maps would then point to that as being essentially the grand cosmic Existential experiential and spiritual punchline, you know, or one of them anyway So, yes, this definitely feels like one of the core cosmic punchlines is that There's both this There's this there's this inward attractor which is like map me. It's like map me understand me That kind of a thing and then there's another attractor Which is basically like I am eternally infinitely creating and You're never going to be able to bound me ever. So why create maps and I love Yes, and I love those two attractors being able to hold them simultaneously it almost It almost seems to be the point is can you awaken it enough in the creation to where you can find The other expressions of yourself that can play tennis Um Where you can get as close as possible to understanding the one intelligence and what it's doing Um, and how it's playing Part of the game and to actually bring back in some of your earlier stuff You are very validly talking about about learning to see thoughts as thoughts Like when people get run into the maps the first thing they usually do is totally fix on them Forget to see the thoughts of maps as thoughts Right and so that can be kind of there's a learning curve and a maturation curve in that and instead They totally obsessed about become desirous of think our true things are the true A true meditator that will be there in a true future that will have a true attainment that is a stable Actually thing they could hold or that somebody could hold it or whatever Right and they they forget the basic things they learned Out long the way and so there is a maturation about all maps But there is a way eventually to learn to have maps just be more colors textures meanings implications of of You know development that just arrives in this moment and do sort of self liberate as the Tibetans might You know call it or the the co-rising of wisdom and emptiness and compassion just uh sort of happening The the built in nature of map thoughts Being the answer to the maps. They're seemingly a map to They you know that that process is definitely how People when they run into maps then get better Yes and get over it Uh because this is of course still it um and then it's just a question of That doesn't mean maps can't be incredibly useful a map actually a super map geek I probably have literally a hundred books or more on the shelf behind me that are variants of maps of spiritual progress And attainments and awakenings and goals and techniques to do that and all that, you know countless Um, yeah, so for example this one if you've seen this one, right? This is a map to this moment So people use these maps to stumble towards this moment as fast as they can possibly go Um, but still something in that stumbling based on map fixation of a true future can be incredibly useful Yeah, and this is my like map geekery and it actually gets way worse than this Um, this is this doesn't involve all the sub jhanas and sub jhanas and sub variants and and all of that Right, so this is the light end of my map weirdness Um, but still hopefully it's hopefully something that people can use I mean, I found maps incredibly valuable, right? They were very validating They helped me avoid common pitfalls. They helped normalize experience They helped me prepare for what I might be going into such that I wasn't surprised by it or shocked by it They helped me with issues of timing and technique and and also just gave me tremendous faith That wow if this part of the map was true, maybe the rest of it's true that kind of stuff Which is a mixed blessing because mixed quality of maps. I was working with Um, but yeah, but you know that said some people are also really Like and here's the other problem. There's there's the problem of of people Who love the maps and do well with the maps? Cool They see a map and they can follow it well. They can hold it with appropriate maturity They can use it to investigate their immediate experience. They don't become all future fixated on it And then there are people who don't love the maps and do great not loving the maps You just say intuitively feel into the the cosmic oneness or whatever Or you know or just be with this and they just do that and they don't need a map They're just here And then you find the other two quadrants of the mix and that's where the problems come in Are the people who really love the maps and kind of suck at using them And they just run them ragged and they get all obsessive and strivy and they're just no you're friggin horrible about this and like Maybe maps were not for you or not without a lot of training and guidance of how to use them and not them be a disaster And then you also get the people who friggin hate the maps and god They kind of really needed them actually like no you needed a map and with maps Maybe you would have done a lot better So you get all four quadrants of that and then mixes and then actually people will move around between these During their lifetimes. It could be really confusing They could do great without the maps for a while and then they run into something that now a map helps them with that and other people like they do great with the maps for you know for a while and then You know, uh, sorry, did I say that the other way? I may have mixed this up anyway Whatever they do great with the maps and then like they start really running into a problem of something They fix on something they hinge on something they solidify and they just cannot friggin get over it And they just need to let them go, you know and and just be just be with what's going on and and learn to surf Rather than like try to do the mathematics of surfing while on the surfboard. Yeah, perfect It'd be like if you're if you're making your scrambled eggs and you're trying to do the math of how much salt and pepper to put into them Whatever. Yeah, it's like art. It's such Exactly. Yeah Yeah Yeah, that's my summary of map stuff. Yeah, that's great That's great. Yeah, ain't nobody doing math and physics while surfing. No, it's just not happening Um, yeah, that's a great one Whoo Oh man, because I can't even Begin telling you how important the maps were for me awakening Well, actually do tell me about that.  I have a maps folder in my talk about those because I've been talking a lot Do you mind because I would actually love to hear your take on this Okay, because I I know my own takes on maps and people might and probably a lot of people may You know, know some of my takes and your audience may know all of your takes But like I'd just love to hear some of them personally Okay, so I'll pull this one out what you found useful and not useful and when and like how you Pick each one because that's also interesting right that meta tech Yeah, oh, that's cool. Yep. Yep. Um, I feel like so much of that is intuitive almost like it I'm like the salting of the eggs type thing And when it almost it comes itself But then you have to graduate from the map to use it in ways that Both serve you continuously and also Serve you with by not using it and then also serve other people by introducing them to it Okay, so this would be just a very brief Come visual Nice. Yeah, I have a little Three some that I this I call this one the quad because I just threw the infinity expressing itself in the top left corner But it's really just three maps You have the classic levels of consciousness by david hawkins on the bottom left. You have the classic spiral dynamics That's clear graves and don beck chris callan also ken wilber Bottom right corner and then you have the top right is the raw the channeled material the law of one the seven density model of consciousness and so these three I would say in the last year have been the most Profound or influential For me and it sounds like you're familiar with all three of them right off the bat Yeah, to various degrees actually my friend gareth was just telling me about the raw law of one stuff and a little bit So that's the one I actually know the least well, but looking at it. It's actually very familiar Tech, right? That's that's pretty similar to a bunch of other maps in that same kind of neck of the woods you know That reminds it goes all the way to Blavatsky and the theosophists and and those kinds of people and then moving forward. So it's it's yeah through my new agey background and uh my um Yeah, kind of blavatsky Days like I have a sense of some of that stuff because it's it's in the same vein Cool nice, but with its own yeah, I see some distinctions there. That's really interesting And then how do you know to move versus one to the other if they become all natural to you? Let me let me uh, that's a great question. I feel like um Let me Let me pull up one. Can you plant flag with that question how to move actually I can transition So one of one of the things that what what I would do is I would take the maps And I would try and distill their essence into another map that I would generate as an as an artist And that would be sort of like can we move on to a higher level? Okay, so this would be let me I'll pull this one up. So this is one that I Uh, wait a second full screen that and then Okay, so yeah, so this one came through about I think in March um, and so this begins to play on what we were talking about which is um Can you go from the uh, can we use these analogies where you have this absolute source dow god brahman void infinity? refracting itself through this uh awareness consciousness witness observer seer and and and Exploring infinite creation planets earth civilizations people names forms 10 000 things And can you make the shift from the transient from the I am the person? Identity as the ultimate litmus test shifting to this I am the witness or I am awareness or I am consciousness all the way to I am this indescribable downess creator emptiness infinitude and Undergoing yeah that anyway, so then this was another sort of map that was generated. Yeah What fun the dark side of the moon map Anyway, yes, yes, and so there's that and then I would say um another somewhat Another quite I think good and important one to visualize at least just for a second would be This one has also been profoundly influential and this one is a bintino masaro's map and so he has this Similar style of I am this person You know on the planet on the right more of a contracted focused on subject object Duality and then this shift into the the I am this the presence energy Just the shift into becoming aware that I am this formless indescribable power to know And then the shift even further into this I solely I just indescribable Awareness and then shifting into this beyond I indescribable infinitude beyond this and so this has been another interesting map and so I would say this one And that's it's quite fun. Yeah the maps I feel like are a mission critical for the process But then like you described also to not be at any point attached but to also be interested in the Like how does infinity try to map itself? And then how does it try to awaken itself in the expression by Creating these maps that then facilitate its awakening but also that don't get attached to those maps and so Thanks for asking about that. I feel like that's the map part is really important You know where I feel like would be a good transition for us now is into How do we? Take what we talked about at the beginning, which was this very practical style of How do I? Suffer less feel more peace and happiness by unfreezing some of my will and sovereignty And then how do I undergo that process of realizing myself as the ultimate or the supreme? But how do we merge that? with the mainstream Architectural processes, this would be a good transition to the emergent phenomenology research consortium which the And then also e benefactors emerges benefactors. And so We'll let dan explain this but just on a high level. This is what we were talking about also earlier with merging science and spirituality and aiming to unlock a lot of the planetary Finances as well and funnel it into these architectural advancements that merge science and spirituality So that as people are awakening and realizing these higher states of consciousness that there's like landing zones and there's integration for them and there's Even at places like the dsm 5 and clinical research. So let's have dan unpack this. I love this nice So i'm gonna i'm gonna go into shameless plug mode for the charity I'm now the acting ceo and board chair of emergence benefactors Which is trying to raise literally hundreds of millions of dollars to do this kind of research So shameless plug for the charity, but this is important So the basic problem is That practices that can lead to what we're going to call emergent phenomena by which we mean magical mystical Spiritual, etc phenomena pick your favorite terms for these things And we we're hitting pretty broadly of that So we mean everything from energetics to perceptual distortions to mood highs and lows and relative insights and ultimate insights and all of that Dark nights and and peak experiences and all that kind of stuff that can happen as a result of meditations Psychedelics, you know giving birth to children walking down the street intensive exercise Military service intensive training and just being alive Right, some people just get into this stuff for no clearly obvious reasons and sometimes when they're weirdly young And so And the problem is is that the clinical mainstream as you know, i'm because i'm a board certified ER Dr. At least was i you know, i'm not practicing anymore So i retired a few years ago But so i went through the whole clinical mainstream thing and there's literally nothing useful except a few lines that were the mighty, uh, david luke off, uh Francis slew and robert turner managed to get into the dsm in 1993 There's only a few lines that they've ever managed to get in that are helpful And most people don't really know how to implement them or use them that help people with this stuff If they run into the mainstream medical or mental health world because you know If you've got energy blazing up and down your spine and think you're now the god queen of the universe or whatever like There are no boxes to put you in that you're gonna like in the clinical mainstream And that's a problem because you know a lot of people's soteriologies a lot of my friends Think that it's going to be some sort of expanded consciousness That's gonna save the planet We're gonna wake up and grow up and clean up and and you know Show up and whatever to you sort of a wilberian model of this stuff of what we're gonna do but the problem is That you know i hung out a shingle like 20 something years ago instead if you're having weird spiritual experiences I'll talk to you about them for free And then when you do that you get to talk to thousands of people who have had super weird experiences and some non-trivial portion of them ran into the health care system Which then from my point of view did terrible things with them And I totally understand why because if I had nothing other than my training as a doctor I would have done terrible things to them right except and the problem is that we've never given them the boxes That they can put these people into or the data-driven management strategies or diagnostic categories that hopefully have some sort of Neuroscientific pharmacological correlates, you know if you're going to use medications Which one to use and if you're not going to use medications You have you know time-tested strategies that we know help them ground down or or you know feel better or be less depressed Or less hallucinatory if that's what they want to be or whatever it is You know and and so you know and that we give them options that are more Accepting of the possible ontologies that people like yourself and myself are comfortable swirling in or the religious traditions They're coming from or whatever and we we um, you know We we help them to have better outcomes because the problem is my colleagues and you know internal, you know medicine and Pediatrics and neurology and emergency psychiatry and emergency medicine and and even like orthopedics and you know Some of these people have weird muscle bizarre movements and tremors and strange kundalini stuff They end up seeing you know physiatrists and and body workers and stuff They don't have enough frameworks. They don't have enough validation. They don't have enough diagnostic codes They don't have enough good science to really show them what to do with these people and um And all of the religious traditions actually think they're the best and the fastest and the most complete and the most profound and the most True and the most helpful and the most developed and the most skillful and whatever at at getting people to whatever their sorterological goals are But I actually probably don't think any of that's true And i'm currently fascinated by what I call the mixed martial arts model We're basically all the traditions like karate and jiu jitsu and capoeira and whatever You know mui tai they all thought they were the best And none of them were mixed martial arts pretty much definitively showed I think by countless youtube video after countless youtube video That a mixed martial artist of equivalent strength weight and training stepping into the ring with a fighter of a single style The equivalent strength weight and training is pretty much just going to kill them Right and so I think the experiment has been done and but with the peaceful arts the peaceful meditative arts I think a similar experiment needs to be done Where a lot of the traditions have tremendously cool tech for handling energetic experiences For doing something skillful with magical or you know entity experiences or profound shifts in consciousness or paradigm or existential whatever Or ontology that can happen as a result of these transformative practices and experiences But I don't think any of them like have it all as I look at all of them because I've studied pretty widely I see well that one does this one's super cool And that one does this one really well and what I actually want to do is let's do the science on this And actually show without have smashing people's faces in but instead what leads people Who want to have very powerful experiences and not wreck their lives to have those for people who just want to be able to Calm down without running into powerful experiences that wreck their lives to have that or if people run into these powerful experiences Or you know that they don't relate to well to be able to to add value to care If they show up in a mainstream setting and to empower my colleagues in medicine Who generally went into this to know good things and be able to do useful things for people to be able to do that Rather than right at the moment. They don't know much and they're sometimes kind of or very harmful Um and kind of sovereignty violating as they take away people's rights and put them in hospitals and stuff I actually talked to a guy about a little over a month ago I think at this point who was intentionally practicing very powerful meditation techniques And they got into a stage that I would call the arising and passing away And they knew that this is a peak experience with lots of energy and incredibly precise powerful mind And they knew people were studying this stuff and they walked into their local hospital This was intentional experiences. They were cultivating right and they said hey Do you have a scientist that could study me? Right because i'm having this right now And I thought it'd be a cool research subject and they naively thought this was a good idea They're like, oh no, like so don't do this by the way. This is not a good idea. It's not safe Right right now, but he was not dangerous not a harm to self or others He knew what he was doing He'd intentionally cultivated these experiences and they forced him into the hospital force Medicated to him for a day until he managed to talk his way out of it and convince him He wasn't dangerous that this is a religious problem This is in canada and that because it's a spiritual thing they couldn't hold him against as well but like Yeah, like That's just got to stop like i'm sorry like that's not cool Right and the problem is to stop it is going to take a staggering amount of work because for 120 years The transpersonal kids have been knocking on the mainstream's door Unfortunately, and pretty much all the wrong ways with language. It's never going to fly. I'm sorry. I don't mean to like if if Maybe kundalini is going to be an icd 11 billing code. I don't know but Maybe like convince me but like until then we probably need language That's not you know They could scale globally and not piss off Muslims and Christians and other People who don't like that language because it's based on some religious tradition or whatever You know and so I think there is a way that the clinical world actually what it does do Well, it's just like hey a gallbladder is a gallbladder and we take it out And I don't mean to reduce spirituality to kind of algorithms and like those kinds of mundane materialistic diagnoses But like someone's really like hi they they did some cool Tending retreat or whatever and now they're like not sleeping for three days And like super excited and incredibly creative, but it's starting to worry their family Like what is the best way to ground them down that doesn't involve meds? You know, I know a bunch of tricks, but are those the best ones? I don't know we need basic practical comparative studies for this kind of stuff And people run into what I would call the dark night Like are there good options other than meds that we could teach? You know muggle clinicians to use and implement and diagnose like hey You were like super excited three days ago and you were seeing white energy coming up and down your spine And your consciousness exploded and now you're like feel like your body is dissolving and there's like, you know You're terrified and you've never felt anything like this before Yeah, well, I know what that is because I'm used to people going through that by the hundreds that I've talked to right That's you know, the a and p to the dark night cycle as I would call it and that you could call it whatever you like But we need to agree on language that can scale globally And that we can come up with management strategies that scale globally to help these people that don't aren't all just force Medicaid them essentially with you know atypical antipsychotics benzos lithium and you know You know seizure drugs converted to mood stabilizers basically You know not that those might not be shown to be incredibly helpful in the only option in certain cases But we need to know what those criteria are And we need to be I think a little less liberal in the application of those would be my guess We'll see where the what the science shows. I'm willing to be wrong Um, but we need to do that science such that people who want it Such that we can fulfill the promise of medical ethics, which is a basic con You know intelligent data driven knowledgeable conversation of risk benefits and alternatives So like you know such that when people are you know start meditating What are the chances you're going to run into wild powerful kundalini stuff? You know, as I was telling you earlier I talked to a guy who's literally his first meditation session ever He had this white bolt of energy come up his spine and hit his head and it started expanding out Into massive like mania territory and now he thought he was like the unified most enlightened whatever Person and like yeah, like luckily his family and girlfriend or whatever managed to kind of ground him down I'm kind of slightly editing this story. But like, you know, like That could have gone super sideways and luckily didn't but but I know cases where it did go really sideways and and that's bad So like we need we need to do better globally in terms of public consciousness in terms of education in schools Like they're teaching meditation in schools now Like I was a kid when I started getting into this on weirdly small doses of meditation It can happen. Is it rare? Yes, but is it zero? No and ethically we need to we need to be able to handle this in some reasonable way That isn't just force medicating kids on powerful drugs. I was fine without meds when I was a kid It was just weird. I learned to roll with it, you know But um and so so that's what the eprc project is essentially about in a nutshell And again, I think it's going to take a few hundred million dollars and a few hundred researchers in a few decades Because I'm willing to be honest about how hard this is this is not going to be easy But that's the dream and that's what I currently spend most of my time working on Is trying to figure out how to find a complete team how to find You know all the money and how to what's the plan? Like what's a a good plan that actually hits our core targets Which are things like the textbooks of emergency medicine emergency psychology for your neurology a general You know general practice family practice internal medicine Um that hits the dsm and icd 11 or whatever it is at that point We finally get all this done or you know implementable in some way we can really feel good about That that really impacts, you know medical board specialty question, you know exams and core criteria And maybe even we create a new specialty that it specializes in this because maybe it's a unique body of knowledge That the other specialties like don't have the time for and maybe this does need to be its own integrative meditative You know integrative medicine board or emergency medicine or something Um and and but I have other friends who you know like gno you for example Fascinating person who who thinks there's no way he thinks the muggles will never get this They're going to fight you tooth and nail till they'll die I'm going to totally fail to integrate this with the mainstream the apa and everybody you're going to block this And they're just going to remain ignorant and suck and like be really intentional And maps got through I'm super inspired by rick doblin because they started in the 80s Right and and like 30 something years later there in their phase three clinical trials and stuff And I find that kind of long term vision like no we're going to do this and we're going to stick it out and build an institution That can weather for that long and stick it out for the long fight and out outlast entire generations Because I think this is going to take generation and education level change Maybe a generation and a half or something and uh, you know And so but that's the kind of thing that inspires me and that the eprc people are about and it's an amazing team Right, we've got people from you know harvard and yale and vanderbilt and cambridge and oxford and you know Sorry if I didn't name your amazing university that you're from but like all these incredible people who are like mds and phds and mdphds And neuroscientists and psychiatrists and stuff and I think we really have a shot at this so i'm actually super excited So that's my shameless plug For the whole thing and apologies if that was kind of long, but I get excited about this This is what I've like This is what I pour my energy into these days is solving this problem Because I'm just super sick of my friends having a really hard time when they run into my other friends Right, and that's not cool. We need to change that so that's if we think we're if we think waking up It's going to be some part of how we save the planet and psychedelics and meditation and spirituality or whatever are going to be a Part of that mix we cannot have a globally adversarial mainstream You know mental health and medicine world that I'm sorry That's just not cool and we need to change that now or as soon as we can and do it based on good data perfect perfect It without a doubt without a doubt science and the analysis of form and the scientific method and the clinical trial essence Has to be without a doubt integrated into the spiritual paradigm of consciousness awakening Has to be without a doubt. You have to marry science spirituality. You have to marry form and formlessness You have to marry physicalism with spirituality with with consciousness with awareness etc with infinity with nothingness You have to and I love this without a doubt.  So as Like rick doblin and maps have succeeded. You now see a global paradigm of entheogens. That's now taken a new Like whoa, like a new popular stance And now you'll see that more and more with the popularization. Actually, this would be a good question to ask you is What would be the ideal like you talked about a um A lexicon or a language nomenclature words that would be used that are If they're like perennial or they're spiritually agnostic of specific traditions That's the critical thing Okay, yeah, and then but they're also have these words also have to be married with science somehow Yes, right. So yeah, so what would be some of the like and we were we just came fresh off of our topic on maps Uh actually like making maps which science would also want to like make some sort of a nomenclature style map Plugged into its clinical trial framework. So yeah, what words slash what? maps Do you feel like would be most relevant to try and like as we as we get more high net worth people Awakened and they fund more things like what you're doing What would be like a like a first principled approach to this being like flowered Yeah, so first principles is actually I think that based on the the fact that I My dream is something that is is comfortable in Tehran as it is in rio as it is in shanghai As it is in rural alabama, which is where I am right now You know, I want something that has that level of scalability because it has that level of clinical neutrality to it One of the things that a lot of my clinicians do very well There are some exceptions is really role with whatever ontologies people bring in So this has to be as ontologically neutral as it possibly can be which you can kind of Argue is itself sort of an ontology, right? But it's a functional one that allows it to scale globally regardless of you kind of have to adopt that as a frame Right and that's what medicine does right medicine, you know teaches, you know physicians, you know, and you know, you know apps And nurses and all kinds of other caregivers of all the different, you know health care varieties And mental health providers, you know psychologists psychiatrists You know all of the social workers, etc That there is generally and there are exceptions depending on the country that i'm actually slightly jealous of i'll get to that that uh Where you do meet people with whatever their ontologies are and you've really thought about what is the essence of this And what i know for certain is that most of the language i'm most familiar with and use will not scale Most of the language i use when i talk to people about spiritual practice. I don't think it's ever gonna work I don't think it's gonna get in i'm not married to it. I don't care All I care is that the language work and scale globally Yes, and if it involves, you know, every single map and every single term i care about Not making it in i am 100% fine with that as long as we help people And i'm no attachment most of it i'm guessing the vast majority of it won't i'm guessing a little bit of it will Because some of the language i use is already kind of stripped down practical You know energy could you have the sensation of energy? That's pretty neutral. It's not i mean It's because of the sensation of energy, you know or so that sensation of vibration or of tingling or of pulsing Those are neutral terms you could use Light is when you see light you see light if you hear a voice you hear a voice like, you know You could label it a hallucination But you're hearing a voice and actually if you look at the voice hearing networks and And groups in the literature like there are a lot of people here who hear voices and they're doing fine Right, so you don't have to go to the level of hallucination Because that's actually an ontological judgment that the thing is not real Which I don't think you actually have to do and that's where clinical medicine Kind of got itself into trouble and really alienated the crap out of the of a lot of spiritual traditions Because it started getting ontological in ways that were judgmental and thus alienating Right and this is important, you know, this is important to the pentacostals You know that that go to church five miles from where I live as as it is as it's alienating to them as it is to the psychonaut You know tech brain hackers You know even though because they all run into the same problem Is that the clinical mainstream made a judgment about them? And it was an ontological judgment that I don't think they can necessarily back up that they know for certain This is all real or all isn't all real, you know And so I think they kind of got a little less Sciencey than they think they are and kind of bought into scientific materialism a little bit more than they needed to To really come up to do practical things like come up with good drugs Which there's a lot of cool meds out there like that scientific materialism really helped with and you know It's it's a useful frame, but it's not all all powerful All knowing are all helpful when dealing with humans who have hearts and minds and are complicated as any good clinician knows Right and so so in terms of the language actually part of us the linguistics project of communication project That's probably gonna You know require some big Communical councils and bringing in the big religious traditions and say hey, what language language can we use to describe this Bare phenomenology that y'all are cool with because we don't want to piss you off We just want to help people You know and I want that I want the pope and the catholic church in hierarchy to be as comfortable with this You know as shamans out in the amazon somewhere. I don't know if we can pull that off But but I would love to I would love to be able to to do something that was just that descriptive and kind of technical and precise and then um and then have icd 10 and 11 codes that have that same level of Just down to earth that neutrality that isn't trying to pathologize anybody But but that's actually going to be because I think even if we get all the science right You know and we really because we're actually getting some cool preliminary results with the eg and some fmri stuff That's been done before us and and cool phenomenology and various management strategies for handling various things There's already some science out there to build on and a lot of cool tech the trans personal kids did You know, which is amazing and you know, I've got these great books by the graphs like the story research for the self There's tons of cool tech in this book, you know, like thank god for you, you know and the work you did But it's it's ontologically not neutral enough. So there's no way it scales, right? And that's so you know because they did incredible stuff So like we've got to not make that same mistake because I did a serious failure analysis Unlike where the amazing things that the trans personal kids did went wrong and that's part of it Like why did they why did they fail for you know? Depending on when you think they started if you want to go back to, you know Abraham Maslow in the 60s or Esslin in the 70s or all the way back to William James the psychiatrist at Harvard Who read incredible stuff and very practical stuff and like why they totally failed to penetrate the clinical mainstream?  I use the word all the time But you know what I mean for sure. Um, so yeah Wow, this has been so profound for me because Especially as we were just talking about the importance of taking these child like analogies and visualizations and metaphors like Light prismatically refracted ascending like metamorphosis and then somehow, you know, they're like that That feels like it doesn't trigger Um Which is great and it feels like it could scale as long as there's also some sort of of the scientific Um literacy that's like what is in these what is in red light and what would be in in orange? What would be in yellow in green and and as it ascends, but I also totally got a heavy layer It's it's like it's still it's still way up for sure. It's still way up Compared to like, um, what would be a word for like like you say this language of phenomenology Like what would be a word like a mircha aleadek said the hierophany, right? So it's like a manifestation of the sacred, but again, there's like what do we do with how do how does that? So it'll almost be like As well and the materials are not going to let that in I'm sorry of the sacred. Yeah, you're you're d.o.a. And so I've got to have some getting away. Yeah, like no way Yeah, I'm sorry like I could I could pretty much okay. I'd be a million dollars right now Like that's not gonna make it. I feel I feel like I feel like there might be something here with, um starting off with a uh In science would be starting off with how Uh a personal contracted energy um could be um neuroscientifically mapped as a uh a con a connectome um that has uh um less, uh Uh openness and less universalization and less harmony. Uh, yeah, so again It's so easy to do Yeah, yeah, it's funny when I look at articles in the transpersonal literature I literally want to cut out every other word like that like from the abstracts and I would just if I was a uh Uh an editor that was just trying as hard as I could to get this into a textbook of emergency medicine or emergency psychiatry Or to reach the world health organization Or to reach them. Yeah, I would slash it I would slash like every other word in concept and say no no no start again Go back to the drawing board. No Like and I would be it would be brutal and they would freaking hate me Because you know and I would hate me like in my own book and you know mastering the core teachings of the buddha Mastering the core teachings the buddha is never gonna enter the clinical mainstream Like almost you know, I would I would slash 80 of my book and then like the rest would all have to be redone Because it's not gonna work, right? It's I've got too much language. I've got too much overlay I mean some of the underlying concepts might get in there But the vast majority of the way I wrote it wouldn't because it wasn't designed for that audience But when you start actually designing for a clinical audience and a in a muggle audience and a An administrator audience and a health insurance audience and a bureaucrat audience and a national health service policy audience and a you know reimbursement coders audience Like they're None of that's gonna fly and because they're coming from all these different religions all these different backgrounds All these different assumptions and then you've got to do the weird thing we do because like, you know I was practicing in rural alabama and you know a lot of people around here are very very religious I'm you know in various ways that like maybe they're not the religion that I'm as comfortable with But I can totally meet them where they are pray with them be with them Then move to the talk to the materialist about this and that and you have to have that kind of Like chameleon like capability. Although I must admit I was weirdly jealous Weirdly jealous in a strange kind of way that's almost odd to admit as a perennialist I was reading a scientific article That was written in one of the very muslim countries And it was written for one of their local medical journals And the first line is like Allah is the source of all things and all things come from Allah and understanding of Allah is the key to health And that was the first line of the science or something like that I'm kind of paraphrasing It was the first line of this article and of course that's what they write because In that country like medicine and the ontology and the religion and the government And the public consciousness to a very large degree are all essentially the same page And I was I was kind of jealous of the power of that like they could just comfortably be What sort of they hopefully most of them are and aren't being forced to be that but actually I don't know If they honestly are that or not. I'm not making judgments. I have no idea if they would even know for certain But um, but it was there was You know, it's interesting like and I think the transpersonal People and most religious people they love their models They you love your models. You love the one with light. It's beautiful. I thought it was super cool when I saw it I love my models and yet We they're not going to make it through You know, that's that's heavy baggage It's not going to make it through the sieve or whatever of this goal And that's why nobody's been willing to give up enough of their ontologies to do this. I see Okay, okay, so take I do so take me through what it's like where you have The scientific consensus that there's a An individual that feels contracted energy And it's next to an individual that feels open and liberated right now psychometrically we can view this as The the psychometric trait openness is one of the you know, that again, that's a psychometric trait based on like filling in An analysis that's subjective of one's own So then if you take things like biomarkers that are like your connectomics So would you say that like connectomic biomarkers might be one of the Like forefront ways to objectify what is like a contracted versus a universalized energy Well, actually I would love to do the science on that and be able to give you better because the scientist in me Now is coming out because you've kind of i'm suddenly gotten to the clinical scientist mode Which may be boring for some people I apologize But it's suddenly like that's how i'm thinking and when I think about that So one of the big dreams of the eprc yet again another shameless plug for a big charity ask For a big nonprofit thing We want to build it's called the emergence research center And what we want to do in the emergence research center is actually bring in as many traditions Will this will be kind enough to grace our our door with their presence And to bring them in and to have fmri and high density eeg And epigenetic and wet lab, you know full biomarker measurement capabilities and You know ai on qualitative and quantitative data analysis and full biomarkers and full monitoring of these people for affect for valence For mood and then the capability and then enough resources to actually follow these people up long stream After they leave whatever intense retreat or spiritual or meditative or hot yoga or whatever experience they did You know and to be able to see to catch these experiences in real time to be able to measure someone who is feeling some contracted Trauma thing with a story that then releases and be able to measure that as much as we could possibly measure that Which I think will also involve need to involve body electrodes and maybe even like neuromuscular sampling Like to see if there's actually receptor changes or you know Are we going to have to put you know Actually do nerve conduction studies on some of these people and see if there is actually free or flow of Whatever that's going to be painful But like that's the kind of science I want to do in dream of and the team wants to do a dream of Dr. Katie Devaney dreams of running it and that's I think you know 50-ish million dollars to get a really good start on that And that's not that actually that much money as biomedical research goes like just to bring a single drug to market Is like two point something billion now two point six or eight billion Right for a single drug that might just be some copycat bullshit That doesn't really add to our clinical arsenal of utility And so like you know I just you know give us a give us a tenth of that we could do a lot You know and so that's actually before so before I answer that question. Yeah, maybe But now what I dream of is like going out at the realm of speculation. Let's just friggin do this Let's answer these questions that people have been kicking around for decades And we're no closer to answer them really at that really hard science level And I would love to know and actually sell an attasoy who actually did a lot of stuff with connectome harmonics is in the e prc as is quintin ferrex and You know we quality the quality of research their number of quality of research that are you know e prc members and Let's just talking with them actually it was yesterday two days ago when we were talking to Quintin is two days ago. Actually we were talking about an eeg study that I had done that was looking at the various ways The brain connects or disconnects and actually just making sure we speck out the harvard I'm going to be involved in two meditator and a scanner studies at harvard martinos imaging center and mcclean Hospital in the boston cambridge area Actually looking at some of the stuff and we were just making sure we had we that we speck out the scans to get the Connectome harmonics analysis done on as I shift through various meditative states And then we have other talented meditators come in and shift through something like those same states And because you know, I know how to replicate really tense states and then like dissolve them because I can do that Like that's the kind of stuff we could look at And then if you could catch people doing it de nova where it's not kind of simulated But it's actually happening to them in real time That's how we're going to get those answers and until we build those kinds of research capabilities It's all just going to be talk and i'm kind of sick of that like let's freaking do it You know if we actually care about this stuff and helping people Let's figure it out and and like for all these people for their kids Let's create like hey all like shameless plug to rich people Like if you want your kids to grow up in a world where we actually understand this stuff Well and your parents and your family and yourselves and your own spiritual journeys and your own brain hacking and I walk the quest and five meo journeys and whatever it is and and cool things you're doing Like it would be great if we could help you to do that better help us do the science You know, this is all not for profit science. This is not with any industrial or you know corporate or for-profit agenda We just want to help people and this needs to be done because every single person on the team knows There's a they're there for themselves. That's why they gathered they they're all experienced something on this path that's that the clinical mainstream would not relate to skillfully and and so we're inspired and and Just fund us to do it and that's kind of the bottom line and the rest is all speculation and talk perfect so We take this like big picture Visualization with this there's like six to ten trillion dollars That's currently locked up in high net worth individuals and families And we also enable them to see that it's not only going to benefit themselves and their families the kids Their community the world at large. Um, it's it's also what is precisely going to synthesize science spirituality it's going to create more of a Of the planet focused on the sustainable development goals and the things that actually matter around the planet as well as Consciousness and metaphysics. Yeah, and so I really like the visualization of taking like the connectomics The ekg the microbiome. I like sort of the suite of analysis and then having like a thousand people Yeah, that are like you and me frank etc go in that are able to Let's say that we're anchoring the awakened state and then you have sort of Mainstream people that feel lots of stress lots of anxiety lots of depression lots of non harmonic Biometrics and then map a thousand of those And then you take like a meta pattern of the data of the awakened state versus the stress state And then you find what is most relevant to extract as the key biomarkers from both of those And then so it's that kind of a scientific analysis that would have to be done Yeah, and so we're talking like 50 million dollars just to be able to do stuff like this to really get into the range It could run 100 Sorry if I if 50s maybe too low But it's going to be a bunch of money to have a proper team because you need Where most of the neuroscience is kind of sucked is actually in the micro phenomenology They may have measured gigabytes of data on the person But actually that's very few questions in real time about what their actual experience was I think this is what's why most of the You know meditator and a scanner studies are actually not that good. So I'm being a little little critical of my colleagues But we you know, I've been in studies that have been guilty of the same thing So but like and then to follow these people up to see what their experiences lead to in terms of practical outcomes Like that takes big teams and to qualitative data analysis take big teams and it's expensive It's tedious. I think we need some ai that could do a lot with that with valence analysis and other things But also actually one of the things we're dreaming of is what we call the big data project I actually think the vast majority of the data is actually already there in the form of google and twitter and facebook and instagram and the big social media data sets and cambridge analytic and You know, these people have access Because now we have a you know two plus billion people or whatever for hour for many years 10 or something years They've been plugged in where we know what techniques. They looked at we know what retreats They went on we know what books they were reading. We know what youtube videos They were watching we knew if they were going to yoga classes. We we know all or they know not we it's not me Actually, they know at the moment But globally that knowledge and data exists and then we know like hey, they went on this meditation retreat They took the psychedelic they tweeted to their friends this and then like, you know three days later They were suddenly up at four in the morning when they're never up at four in the morning Type is typing twice as fast as they usually do what the hell is kundalini, you know And then like three weeks later they're reading You know, they're typing what are the side effects of sarah quill, you know and like We can you know and then like what helped them and how did they do and like what techniques Do they run into when they started their spiritual quest? And what percent killed themselves and what percent thrive became incredible, you know world changing entrepreneurs and what people You know dwelt in their cubicles better and what people had better health Outcomes and what people cost the health insurance policies less and the national health systems less and what techniques led to them costing more And what techniques led to people flipping out or getting divorced or becoming incredibly loving and compassionate humans I think that data is already there And literally we just need to analyze it want to save us a whole lot of time Get us access to that data and get us the 20 or 30 million dollars or whatever it would take to analyze it Well, I don't know what that would cost But it would I think it would save us 10x And and probably save us like two or three decades of having to do all the tedious like you know And we still need to do some of that We still need controlled trials But that is a massive amount of day that could probably save us a staggering amount of time And actually just get us really good practical real world already tried in the field recommendations of live human studies of Because the people have already done the experiments for themselves. They've already sought They've already found that it led to whatever outcomes it did And I think there's enough data there despite all the noise You could still sort out a lot of signal with good data processing So if you as the listening person happen to be somebody who has access to any of that So let us know we would be happy to talk with you and help you with those analyses to make this whole project a lot faster Another shameless plug for the EPRC Wow Sorry if I download pretty fast if you're listening to this another language by the way, I apologize. I know I talk fast I'm sorry. I get excited. It's part of my pathology and hopefully a little bit of charm so Yeah, your map about How to best execute this is really strong and I love how anchored it is in the mainstream scientific business data collection paradigm and how Because that's that's the quickest way In and also, I love how you see it from being able to work with a lot of the funding sources that Can accelerate this I'm a huge huge fan of this and I feel like everything that I've been working on in the last especially about Seven or so months ago What I was publishing around the synthesis of science of spirituality and getting it as quickly as possible into the mainstream It had a lot to do with this data fusion of the connectome the ekg the microbiome And then extracting out a meta pattern of 1,000 very awakened people versus 1,000 people that are suffering depressed anxious, etc Sure, right. Yeah, and so I feel like You are doing exactly what I was excited about and writing about and trying to visualize and so Now it's even easier for me to figure out how to pool resources Into that we've got the team already. We've got the plan like we just at this point We really just need the cash like Yeah, we have enough to do all of that. That's I've already talked to geneticists at the cdc and and you know senior geneticists at john's hopkins and we've got microbiologists we We've got that and we've got people who have already done epigenetic data stuff. I mean Yeah, like That's great. I already have people that are that are coming up that I feel like would want to That are involved in the high net worth space that would want to fuel this because of that level of Serious readiness and a team ness and a white paper ness and that those variables visionariness, so That's great because I I will uh, let's see where a couple of those intros can go off the bat and then where where they will funnel Beyond that because I I know that there are people that are listening right now that have connections to people like what we're describing and You can go to dan's website and grab his email and make an introduction as well and Because this is it. I mean this is our this is our gateway to mainstream and the Accelerative path to it rather than the sort of hey, let's uh, let's hands off Relax in the awakening and as people await as people somehow stumble upon it themselves They'll come to us versus how do we go in? With the architectural understanding of how to merge science spirituality and make it clinically Neutral and ontologically neutral and to ramp things up That's sort of a like a fanning the flame Rather approach and and I like that approach And I feel like it really resonates with people So You are you are it in terms of that big pillar For us. I love that.  They have a neuroscience approaches they have there's lots but but um, if there's an equivalent dream that is quite as big and bold and brash and Dedicated to hitting the hard tedious targets that I think most people just like throw up their hands and go, uh You know, like getting board questions into board question exams and getting it into the core curricula of various medical specialties And you know petitioning, you know the american, you know board of medical specialties or that's you know the different specialty boards or You know or changing billing codes. That's the kind of tedium most people don't want to do But it's going to take that and so we're dedicated to the grinding painful institution Building and changing tedium as well like not just the cool flashy findings No, we're we want to find the money to change the bureaucracies at that core functional day-to-day paperworky kind of level Right, which sucks and is horrible and yet desperately needs to happen and that's what we've decided to do So if you're interested in a long painfully expensive Project that will involve a lot of tedium and bureaucracy and hard targets and hard conversations and hard lobbying and all that Please talk to us. But I think that's what it's going to take anything else. I think it's just it's fun And flashy, but I don't think it's real Yeah I'm really excited for one specific introduction for this for you um Because the the very nature of this This person is so aligned with what is unfolding But they're they're the exact essence of How do I put it into a place that's trusted that's actually going to do it? Which is basically the number one question that these high net worth Families have is um, how do we find what is actually going to do it in a trusted way? Yeah, that's what I found is is the key. Yeah, well, I've got a You know, I spent um, so We spent about a year building the eprc white paper and plan and then spent most of the last Eight months or so building the container to hold the cash to get to just get down to brass tacks We have an impressive board. We have some very Uh well built diligent bylaws and procedures. We have you know An accountant and auditing and all of that stuff that we've just gotten on board. We have, you know We're developing very, uh Reasonable grant allocation and monitoring policies and stuff And so we've really gone out of our way to build the kind of structure that can responsibly hold that kind of money And keep it and be a responsible custodian of it and distributor of it and monitor what we're doing And we're very transparent about what our plan is a lot of these organizations Like have sort of secret plans or big teams, but you can't really figure out what they're going to do You could read our whole friggin long tedious white paper And figure out exactly what we're going to do and what it costs and why we think it costs that It's you know, it's in there and and there are also places where the plan Needs a few more people and we're honest about that like where we like we don't have enough medical anthropologists yet We need them to make sure that we go in understanding the needs of all needs of all the involved tribes Like what what does the ap a need to let us in what does the world health organization need to let us in? We have some pretty good ideas. We've had some preliminary conversations But yeah, like some of that really needs to be done very thoughtfully and with a lot of nuance. What do insurance companies need, you know Like what does the pharmaceutical industry need to play nicely with this stuff? Like that's important. And so yeah, like these are the kinds of hard questions that that We have tremendous respect for all of these groups and they're all trying to help in their way We're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well as be appropriately wary, you know trust but verify kind of thing But um, yeah, so like uh So if you're if you look at the prc white paper and you're like I have a skill or a talent That you don't have a name under that slot and you say these people are needed Please get in touch with us as well because I think we've got about 70 of the I think 300 or so people We're going to need to do this and so We've also gotten to the phase where if we were holding more cash I think there are more people who would then um turn more attention our way just to be as a blatant plug of practicalities Yeah And all these links are found in the bio below So you can find the e prc. You can find e benefactors. You can also find dan's website. You can find this book And if you have any questions about any of this, I would love to talk with you perfect Here's what I think that we'll do also is um One of the big things that's come up for me is also shifting us away from What is the The island model towards the cohesive model. I like the way of of funneling also People around the world that are doing this into Like a best practices unit That's cohesive around Synthesizing science spirituality and getting it into the mainstream scientific architecture. Yeah So that's another way of Synthesizing so what I what I feel like I know where I feel like where I want to um to take our Exploration in terms of like what we can do next Introduction wise and how that could funnel into the success of this And then what I feel like we could do also Conversationally is maybe Maybe like once a once a quarter or whatnot we can revisit because something that we were talking about with um with frank and with other people is doing this um like quarterly on a on a cadence where we're undergoing a process of of What would be the ideal Way to like we were talking about with that met like the meta pattern of a thousand people that have experienced some sort of Waking versus thousand that are still in some depressive contracted state and getting a biometric meta pattern and whatnot and um And just revisiting where we're at with the progress and updating people around that while we're simultaneously dynamically Iterating what is what is optimal? um Yeah, so that's another thing to to explore together And yeah, that sounds like tremendous fun.  Do you feel like the intention is closing for the for the show? That felt like a really good wrapping up place if that feels good to you It feels good was that may have been different topics than you were thinking about talking about but was that did that work? Was you're all right with that gosh? It was so perfect. It's just indescribably perfect. I love that. That's awesome. Thank you I really appreciate the opportunity and your enthusiasm and interest in getting this out there That's it's yeah Yeah, much gratitude me too me too because you're the you're the embodied version of what people So badly want to happen, but don't know how to Do the hard work to get it into the science and the engineering and the mainstream architectures and so let's funnel that energy more into you and the team and and the white paper and and the clinical trials and The nomenclature and all of that good stuff and the proper high net worth funding and all this stuff So let's get that let's get that rolling deeper and I feel like a lot of our our audience Got the chance to take away some of the initial conversation around Just awakening in general and what it's like to become unfreeze more of that will and become more sovereign but also we went into the beauty of the Highest-level metaphysical abstraction, but then we also were like how do we do this in mainstream society today? And so we really navigated a beautiful mosaic and That's what I love about the interviews most of all is that specific aspect to it So thank you for also being able to anchor it in which is exactly what we need Thanks. That was awesome. Okay, great. Yeah Bye Yeah, I'll let's let's I'll wrap the show and then one sec Dan Let me wrap the show and then I'll end the broadcast. We'll stay in the studio for a moment. Thanks everyone for tuning in We love you so much really grateful We would love we would love for you to check out the links in the bio below Again, all of Dan's links are down there. Go and check them out and support in whatever ways you can And also like the video helps the algorithm comment below with your thoughts We would love to hear from you on some of your thoughts around that episode Subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet and also share the video if you feel like There were segments in here that were really powerful share it with your friends family, etc online And That is all again infinite love. Thanks for tuning in and thanks again Dan and I'll go ahead and end it. We'll stay in the studio Bye everyone