Every single time it is this time of the month, we all say it as YouTubers, where did the month go? But that is really how I'm feeling, although I'm very happy to see February go on out and have March come in because I'm ready for spring. I don't know about the rest of you because it has not been a nice winter around here. So we're gonna get into what I was enjoying the most this month, my favorites, and I'm going to get into those right now for you guys. All right, so we're gonna get out of the way, ColourPop. I have ColourPop in every single favorites video, and this is no exception. This one is, came out around Valentine's Day, and this is the You Are a QT Palette. And this is exclusive to Ulta, I believe. I don't think they have it anywhere else yet. They might have it on their website now. I really enjoyed this. I loved having, of course, the lavenders, but you do have some neutral tones over here, and then you have these gorgeous metallics that are all through here, and they all just look really beautiful on. Of course, ColourPop's formula is one that I am in love with that I'll continue to promote just because it is one of those that is just that good. And the colors in there are so easy to blend and they're so pretty, and I loved that they gave you kind of just a spring pinky palette, but they also gave you the opportunity to go into the neutral colors if you wanted to. So you could use any of these colors along with the neutral, and you come up with just some beautiful looks. And I did a look this month that I did on camera, not that I did on camera for a tutorial, but I had on camera where I was using this palette, and I used all of these colors right here, but I incorporated some of these, and it just turned out really beautiful. So again, ColourPop does a really good job with their palettes. I was really good. That's the only palette that I bought for the month, you guys, so I feel really good about that right now. And then from ColourPop also, I know I think I mentioned this in my last favorites video, but I want to mention it again, because honestly, you guys, this big, huge pan of the Super Shock formula is so pretty, and this is in your catch. And I purposely did not put a bunch of highlight on today because I want to put this on just to show you guys, first of all, there's a humongous mirror in here. This is a big pan. If you guys, any of you have the Marc Jacobs Omega Bronzers, that's how big this is. It might be even a tiny bit bigger, I'm not sure. Big pan, and it has a really nice big mirror in here, which I actually carry in my purse because I think it's great. I'm just going to kind of do some of this across my cheekbones here so that you guys can see how pretty that is. It doesn't show my texture up. You know, of course, when we're older, we have to kind of stick to this outer area. We can't put it all over in here, where we do have texture with large pores, but it's so pretty, you guys. I just think it's one of those ones that it catches the light and it's just not too much. And so that is one I would recommend. Don't throw away this plastic covering because it fits in there perfectly, and that's going to help it to stay a little bit fresh. And yes, some of you have said you'd never be able to use that in a million years as far as the super shock drying out. That's probably true, but I have been actually using it all over the place lately, like on my shoulders and stuff when they're bare. So I really have been enjoying that very much. And then I was gifted from Foreo. I think that's Foreo. However you say that, I was gifted the Foreo. This is the Luna Three, and I was gifted this through Octoly from Foreo, and I really have been enjoying it. Now, I have never been one that used a Clarisonic or any sort of a brush or anything. I just feel like I really have enjoyed just having my microfiber cloths and I feel like I get a really good cleanse with that. But a couple of times a week, I'll use this and I can feel that it's really going a lot deeper, very gentle. This is a very soft little nubby things on here and very fine, hopefully you guys can see that. It works really well and it works on frequency. And the other thing that this particular one does is it hooks up to an app that you get and then you can kind of manipulate the settings a little bit. And of course it's rechargeable and it just, it feels so good on the skin. And to be able to really, really get a deep cleanse some days, I feel like I'm not quite cleansing enough or the product that I'm trying out at that particular time is not getting deep enough and this thing will go really deep. So along with some skincare things, I want to once again talk to you guys about this Germanium roller. And it has these rollers in here that are like nubs and then this free rolls. And so you have that free rolls, this part free rolls and you just hold that in your hand and it goes across your skin like this. I like this for a couple of reasons. I just had a video for you guys about my five favorite skincare tips for anti-aging and one of them was massage. This gives you a great massage along with cooling effects too. So I will really go over my neckline with this. I've been really diligent since I've lost all that weight because I was so afraid that my neck was going to get creepy. And it is to a certain extent my skin is saggy but I find that if I use this a lot, it brings a lot of the blood up there. I'm using my college, I'm using my retinade to build collagen right there. And I really love this thing. So if you guys don't have one, it's not very expensive and you can get them off of Amazon and they have all different colors and stuff. But I just picked up one that was less expensive because I figured color didn't matter when I was only using it at night anyway. So I will use this around my eyes. I will use it in my cheekbones and around the top of the eyebrows and stuff. I actually use it all over. The best thing that I've found for it is if one, my husband or my son has a headache, I can put this in the freezer for a few minutes and then give them a massage and it just helps move that lymph and helps bring the blood up and kind of moving everything around. So this has really been a lifesaver in more than just one way. So I really like that a lot. Another skincare item that I have been so impressed with you guys, I looked over a ton of things on Amazon to find something for my dry skin that was really good for the SPF. I've used mineral ones. I've used Neutrogena, Australian Gold, Nivea, Biore. I've used so many. But this one is one that I have been enjoying so much because it is a hydrating. So this is Skin Aqua. It's a Korean brand. It's an SPF of 50 plus, plus, plus, plus. And then it has the, it's called UV Super Moisture Milk. You can't get this in a bigger size but since I was only trying it to see if I liked it, I got the smaller one. I will be repurchasing the bigger size but absolutely no drying out. And I do put this all around my eyes because there's no drying out whatsoever. And I feel like, wow, this is gonna give me the protection I need from the sun but it's also going to not dry me out and not make me look like the Crypt Keeper underneath my eyes right there. So I really have been enjoying this a lot and I would really recommend it if you've been looking for one for your face and your neck and your chest area. I had a bunch of you tell me to try the number seven, Lift and Luminate Triple Action Translucent Finishing Powder and mine is in light and you guys were right. This is a beautiful finishing powder. I did my review on powders and all of you were like, you gotta try this one and I think that this one is so pretty. Now I will say that this one, I don't like as much as I do like my Flower Beauty one but it's like there, it's just really close. I think that I'm gonna like this a lot more in the summer just because it's so light and so airy and it does still have that creamy texture to it but it doesn't feel like you've got a powder on it all and I just love that about it.  So wow, I really am thankful that you guys turned me on to that. Thank you so much. And then I wanted to touch on this briefly because this is the Good Molecules Overnight Exfoliating Treatment. I've recently had a lot of questions about these acids and how you use them and the leave on acids for sensitive skin and different questions about that. Now I really like this treatment. I think it's really good but I am, as I get older, developing more and more sensitive skin. So if you have that kind of sensitive skin instead of leaving it on overnight, use it like a mask.   I always, always do but what I do is I leave it on for about 10 minutes and then I'll just take it off with a warm washcloth and then I'll go on to do the rest of my skincare and I find that I still get the exfoliating benefits from it but I don't get as much irritation as I would if I left it on overnight. I have left it on overnight and it did fine but I did notice that it did a lot more sloughing. So it really depends on how your skin is. If you're sensitive, dry, like I am, you might wanna try that method of just using it like a mask. If you're not, then go ahead and use it as an overnight treatment. It's beautiful. I also wanna touch on, I'm gonna get close because guys, look at my eyelashes.  I don't. I don't wear any false eyelashes whatsoever. I just have these great lashes because of my X lash and I have said this so many times if you like it's ad nauseam on my channel that I talk about X lash growth serum for eyelashes but this is so good and it has so many natural ingredients in it and I think that's why I enjoy it so much is because I wear contacts and I will go in and I will just put this on my top lash line. I've started recently putting it on my bottom lash line which is making them grow like crazy but you don't have to. So it just is a miracle solution as far as I'm concerned. I could not ever wear false eyelashes even if I tried because of the disability with my shaking and my palsy and my hands and so finding this has just been an absolute godsend as far as making my lashes look super long and super lush and so I would highly recommend this to anybody. Everybody that has tried it on my recommendation has come back to me and said, you're right. You're absolutely right. So let me tell you just really quickly you're not gonna notice anything for about the first month. The first three to four weeks you're gonna be going she's full of it. She doesn't even know what she's talking about and then about the fourth week maybe into the fifth week you're gonna go are my lashes getting a little bit longer? Are they starting to grow? And then all of a sudden you're gonna be like, whoa, I got lashes. They get a little bit thicker but the biggest thing is they get really long because this helps them to grow long helps really help them to lengthen their growth cycle because eyelashes and eyebrows have a quick turnover with their cycle. So this really helps give them lots of nourishment and lots of vitamins and lots of good things that help keep them healthy so that they can get as long as they possibly can before they do turn over and you have to, you know, grow a new eyelash but I love this stuff and I won't be without it. Two years that I'm going on now and this stuff is really good and I am going to put a before and after picture on my Instagram of what I did before I started and how my eyelashes look before I started this and how it looks now and I think you guys will be really, really happy with the results if you try that one. Okay, I have a brush that I wanna share with you because I had so many of you say, Melissa, what do you use for your blush in that blush video that I did this month of my favorite blushes? I had the cream blush in there or the Super Shock formula in there and so many of you were like, what do you do? Well, this is what I do. I use this brush from It Cosmetics. I've had this brush for about six or seven years. It is a fantastic brush. It's an angled, stipple brush and the reason that I like it, it doesn't matter if it's powder, if it's cream. I love it for both of those but the reason that I like it is it is a duo fiber. These are super airy so you're not gonna deposit too much down at any one time. I just grabbed a super bright Super Shock formula for you guys so you can see. So this is probably my brightest blush that I have from them and you can just kind of, you know, stipple down in it. You don't wanna swipe it across because that's the defeating the purpose of having a stipple brush and hopefully we can see what this is gonna do. So it's gonna go on there and it's gonna give you, you know, you can build it up, you can keep it light, whatever you want to but look how natural and how just beautiful that deposits it down. Now this is not a cheap brush. This is kind of an investment brush but you guys, it is so worth it because it's not a brush that sheds. I've never had one single fiber come out of it and every single time I use it, I get the perfect blush application and I am in love with this thing. If I don't have this thing around, I almost panic because it is the only thing that I can find that goes across my cheeks. I got a hair in my face. The only thing I can find that goes across my cheeks and doesn't ever streak, doesn't ever lay down too much because, you know, I'm just dabbing. I'm not, you know, pushing the blush across or trying to rub it in or anything. I'm just dabbing really lightly and it just, it makes everything just look absolutely airbrushed and I can't, there's no other way to put it. So this particular, by the way, if you're interested in knowing, this one is Count Me In. I wasn't planning on showing that but that's what that blush is, it's Count Me In and it just is a beautiful way of laying down your blushes whether it's powder, whether it's cream, it doesn't really matter. That brush is gonna do you good no matter what you put on and I have one more thing to share with you and it is a hair clip. I got this recently from Amazon after I was looking on Amazon for all that jewelry that I was showing you guys and linking it and this is a peacock and so here's the peacock's head right here. Hopefully I can get close enough to see it. So here is the peacock's head right here and then the feathers that go up here and it's so pretty. So I'm gonna wear some buns and then I'm going to put this just right below it and I think it will be so gorgeous in the hair. So I think it's absolutely beautiful. They have tons of these. I will link this one and a few others so you can see. They have a turquoise one that I absolutely fell in love with and some different shapes and different types not just the peacock one but I thought this was so pretty. So that's it for February favorites. I hope that you guys did enjoy this video. Thank you so very much for tuning in today. Let me know if you guys had any lifestyle, household, makeup, skincare, any favorites this month. I would love to hear that from you guys. I always love your recommendations and try them out and I've found so many good things and I appreciate you guys sharing all those with me. Thank you for tuning in, spending a bit of your time with me. Hope everybody is doing really well and the sun is shining where you're at because it is shining where I am and it always makes me feel better. You guys take care of yourselves. Love you so very much and I will catch you all in my next video. Bye you guys.


Excited to have you all back to this, our 270th show of Think Tech Hawaii's human-humane architecture. And you, Eric, who runs us, our producer, please tell us which accumulated viewer you are who is watching us now. Hey, Martin, the humane architecture viewer is up to 14,590. Okay, keep that up, viewing us. And us is our read from the filling station here, or the Tri-Enverat with DeSoto Brown, a Bishop Museum historian in his Bishop Museum, hi DeSoto. Good morning, good day. Our Boston-Banish booster, Matt Noblette, however, today from Detroit, Michigan, hi Matt. Good, yeah, good evening. Exactly, on the other end of that mainland. And me, Martin de Spang, from the Waikiki Grant Hotel. That is the Easy Breezy, but since we're still having these rowdy combustion engines, I'm going to, I'm as inside as we all are. But with this first slide up here, we should be, we want to be all outside. And hopefully this is where we're continuously moving, talking moving. And since you're in Detroit and you have become our foreign correspondent, Matt, can you give us a little bit of your sort of synopsis of having been back to Detroit? Yeah, I mean, I think in many ways it's encouraging to see quite a bit of construction activity. I mean, I'm looking out at a skyline with quite a few cranes on it. And certainly sort of hotel and nightlife opportunities are back and quite lively. But it is still very much a city, kind of a post-industrial urban landscape, meaning there's a lot of empty lots and there's just not a lot of life, kind of public life on the sidewalks and on the streets, other than sort of just normal work traffic and things like that. But it's actually been quite interesting to be here for the last 24 hours and see signs of life, let's say, quite a bit of that. All right. And regarding the news up there at the very top, while we're sort of worried about not people out there, which they should, but in that circumstance here when Trump said protest, protest, protest, and you must have helped meds that no one showed, that's great when we don't have people out there. For that purpose at least, yes. So, and I guess speaking of national politics, we got the polls up there at least from last night, a double check. I think it's still the same while we're really happy to have the Senate secured as blue. And not that we could have hoped any different, but the House might, there's only one more win away to keep it red, which is sad, but we don't want this to overshadow our enthusiasm about Josh Green. We haven't really, we were still under the impact of all of that. So I don't think at least for myself, we haven't sufficiently showed enthusiasm and appreciation and congratulations. So I will do this here from my side. Josh, thanks for being with us and working with us on all the levels because that's what it takes. And the sort of the one we remember the most and being engaged in the matters of the built environment, Eric, if we can get the show quote up from the very top right and to whom do these sexy legs belong that we otherwise don't see the body going with it? Well, the sexy skinny legs sexiness is questionable belong to me and I am sitting next to Neil Abercrombie and we were both at one of your class. I don't know what you would want to call that not critiques necessarily but in which the students present the aspects of the different things that they worked on during the semester and we got to react that time to the various thoughts that they were coming up with for developing things for the future and there are a number of things that not only did they come up with but under the guidance of their teacher who's Martin Despang they think outside the box and they use their young imaginations and young thoughts to break away from everything that's already been established and try to think of new ways to build things for people to live in and that's what Neil was reacting to and that's what I was a part of as well and I'm going to be doing that again fairly soon for your class and so I'll be looking forward to that. Thanks for confirming this way. Thank you. Hey, Matt, since we shared that you were just talking with a national German government and their sort of diplomatic branches and speaking of informed clients and informed citizens we talked before the show, Neil's qualification that impressed you. You want to reiterate that, maybe? Oh, right, he studied urban policy and planning or something along those lines. Exactly and sorry that the show quote in the picture is a little bit blurry but what he holds in his hand is what he had his PhD thesis based upon which is Lewis Mumford's Wither Honolulu and he came with that and said, I'm prepared and a little anecdote from the emerging generation aside as you were referring to DeSoto is that one of the team members, Dustin Solars, who makes because we charge them too much tuition and fees so they got to make a living somehow and Dustin is making kitchens near the airport and he told me he basically this was the first year of jungleism in Waikiki in 2015. That's how time fly is by and Neil was running from 10 till 14. So he happened to be a kitchen customer of Dustin and Dustin told us that when he came, Dustin was so excited about the project that he showed in the model and that got misses and Mr. Abercrombie totally excited about discussing what one should have done and could have done and so on and so we said that's the best peer assessment you can get if the highest politicians get engaged and get excited about it, right? So emerging generation keep on rocking and rolling this direction, right? And get to the next slide DeSoto I should have been actually you want to be with us, thank you. I should have been with you in your front yard that we see at the bottom right because you had a premiere of a movie and did you have the chance to watch it or hear about it and we see it down there at the bottom left? No, I did not. I certainly know the setting very well, which and just as an aside, Bishop Museum has this great advantage of what we call the Great Lawn which today is a very large open space in urban Honolulu today which is used for all kinds of different events including as you experienced a movie showing and that is something which is we extremely fortunate to have we could never replicate it now with the amount of money that it would cost to have this big open space in Honolulu. So that's just me plugging something that Bishop Museum has as its legacy which is irreplaceable. Yeah, and thanks to you having that because the legacy of dry in drive-in movie theaters which is as American as you can get it, you lost. There isn't any left anymore. And Matt, I don't know if your next time you go to Munich, please go to see in the distance your founding fathers Günther's premier project of the Olympics in 72 and the tower next to it, the needle-like tower. You see it in the distance when you're in the movie, drive-in movie theater in Aschein and so, you know, the irony is it comes from here, it's done here and over there it exists. As we were talking, same with the upmost tiki restaurant and bar is in the basement of the most upscale hotel, the Bayerische Hof. Not anymore, although I was back to La Mariana and it's getting back up on its feet so it's good to have, but it's the only one left, right? So we ironically had, because on Thursday when it was, I have two, which I don't have to but I'm happy to coach the evening so I couldn't go. So we had to actually go to the ward, consolidated theater and I left with a taste of like, okay, I feel really, really guilty of my skin because the movie portrays what we with our skin I have done to you local guys at the Soto and so that's really, really hardening and heartbreaking and getting us to the next slide. We, you just sort of, I think you charged us last time because we were talking about Kakaako and our Kakaako you said, well, we will have to see how that, you know goes on in the future and so, Semi and I went and one of the things they said, we don't have to go back, but you must have read, you know, sugar cane and bracket blame. One of the locals were saying in the movie, okay, that's all they do, you know, to rake in the money, cash crop and so we were thinking by going from Kakaako and top left is showing you met with Bill and Semi taking you out to what's it called Tango, right? And Bundit was the facilitator of that one. So thank you for that. So we know how that part of Kakaako looks like and that is still how it used. So these howly cowboys once below that one is our Kakaako where, which is really, you know, I think the best is actually the graffiti and the graffiti is local artist and there are kind of eye-winking and they deal I think in one way or another one with local culture while what you see on the right behind the pying mobile that Semi proudly poses himself in front of is the collection which is one of the first high rises by Kamehameha school and that one in our discussion we had was like, well, that's cash crop too. That's cash crop architecture where you basically do it for profit and it's a little bit as, you know, Medina when we were talking before the show is like, well, you grow a pineapple and then you cut it and chunks and you give like two pieces to the local people and the rest you ship out for profit, right? That's how it feels a little bit at least to us after this discussion, you know, in that, if that's fair to say. Yeah, and I think the thing that also comes up in this situation, which is somewhat unplanned and maybe a little peripheral, but it's very valid. Matt, you were just talking about there being street life and activity on the streets in Detroit coming back from desolation and how heartening that is. And I think one of the things that's really good to change in Kakaako is and is changing. Kakaako developed as first a residential area with schools, with the movie theater, et cetera. Gradually it became light industrial and the inhabitants of the residents moved out. But even though that character changed, it was still then and still for a large part is a very discombobulated, if you will, amalgamation of lots of different types of buildings, small buildings, walkable streets, et cetera. Now there is the lack of infrastructure, which is a hindrance in some situations where the utilities are not underground and there are no sidewalks, et cetera. But this hodgepodge of diverse buildings of different sizes, shapes, the multitude of street art on the walls, the murals which have been created for powwow, that very disconnection adds a liveliness and a vitality which these mega projects, when they are taking up an entire block with a uniform structure, which is usually the parking plinth, then destroys. So it is a very different feeling. And that is something that Kaka Ako is going to turn into and is in the process of turning into. So what you see in the pictures of the vitality is going to change to a much more sterile, separate and monolithic group of buildings, which is going to be very different. Yeah, and to that regards, the top left picture is the most vital and that is what they call salt and that is actually a repurposed area where they afford it and allow themselves, spoil themselves, I guess, in the pressure of development and going high, not this one because that's the Howley-Yuzzi one, but the very bottom left Eric, that's that salt area. So these are good, you showed that one before because that's like what the Howley's do and then you see bottom left what the locals do. And that in fact is very, also because it is a grown urban fabric and it's some grittiness to it, right? It's not all lean and clean and new.  But next slide is the answer to your question that see how that will develop. So this is what Kamehameh School has out there on their website as far as what the future, their master planning is. And again, there is a lot of wording up there which is actually the project that will be the first one to actually be executed. And before we leave this picture here we wanna read through this. But before that, again, Matt, we've been talking about the traditional and drawing style of the Danish firm that it was famous for rightly so but the difference is then it actually translates through the kind of charming chaos and reality I would like to call it which you can call people basically powered. That's like where things get alive. And so you carry this all the way through while here I think it's a scam.  It's kind of cute because, you know, we drew it by hand. But in fact, when we analyze this more guys where do we get to? What's our assessment of what we see? Let's get it going. Yeah, I just wanna say that when you mentioned salt salt at our cocoa is successful and I really admire it. But when you create things like this it is not possible to know beforehand if people are actually going to come use it and turn it into a space of vitality and human activity and salt has been successful which I really admire when you go there there are lots of people walking around they're doing stuff. That's great. The rendering that we're looking at here makes this place look lively and exciting and wonderful but the proof is going to be when it's built and you can't force people to come to something. They have to want to come and once they come they attract more people. We're very social. We like to go where there's activity. So I hope that this will occur successfully. But again, you cannot be 100% sure that that's going to happen even if you draw a nice rendering. Let's say the rendering is well intended but are there clues from reality why this might not work the way it's suggested? Matt. It is a good question. Just because you draw people in the image doesn't mean there's anything there that actually brought them there. This is of course one of the architects great tricks is to be able to sort of... It's sort of invisible forces. Things you can't necessarily draw that play a big role in how is DeSoto said how attractive or how appealing a place is. I think any kind of development of this scale also brings to question that kind of... It almost by its sheer size implies a kind of demographic shift. Who is actually going to be renting these places and how is that going to change the inherent composition of who goes there and who lives there and occupies that place? Yeah, I have to say and this is exciting. I yet have to... You have to show me your projects which I haven't seen basically in America, right? But the ones of your firm as in my hometown, the North LB and the big town over Hamburg the Unilever building. You guys were programming. You didn't leave it up to here. It's like, okay, these tenants you got to really pull people, right? So it relies on if there's good restaurants and good shops, if not people don't go there. So you as an architect always showed in very sort of private, very exclusive typologies of a bank and other corporate headquarters which by their nature have nothing to do with the public. But you say if it's in a city, it has to be and you made sure and your architecture sets the stage for that because we know what people like and what they don't like. So it's not rocket science to script that, right? And that's what you did. There's a great restaurant at the end at the backside of the Unilever building right at the river. And we know that people like to be on the river and they like to eat. So, you know, and that draws them and there's public shops and you don't see the best is that of course there's security of, you know that not everyone is supposed to walk up into the corporate headquarters. And that's solved in such a discrete way just like before Gunther did it with the Bundestag, right? Where you didn't do basically barricade things off and scare people, right? You can make it very discrete, non-visible and basically give people the feeling oh, this is a public building, although it's not. That's real. And I think, yeah, Unilever does it in a similar way to the Gensai building that we looked at last weekend that it puts the lobby of the office building at the second floor with a big stair going up. So it's not hidden. I mean, anybody who goes there to do business with that company knows via this kind of generous stair that goes up in the security or the kind of registration desk that sits there that that's where they should go. But the ground plane through the entire building is given over to the public. Anybody can walk through either one of those buildings at the ground level and actually be in the atrium which is kind of a special thing, right? Not too many office buildings or corporate buildings actually let you do that. Exactly. And as we will see again, because sorry for the too long, weekly architectural criticism together here but that needs to be done. But we get back to the Gensai building and keep that thought and we will see it again. I will just say there's what we all know is that being out in the sun is uncomfortable. Palm trees rendered here predominately don't give much shade. We don't see the umbrellas that we just saw in the previous image at Salt and we see this concealed surface that radiates back. The only comfortable people are the two guys or people under the tree to the right, right? So I mean, that's why I'm saying this image here is basically fooling us because under real conditions, this is not. And now we get to the architecture that is sort of like nicely not gone into more details but you already get clues because there is very few horizontal double or multiple lines which might indicate balconies. Don't even want to go and call it lanais yet. And so, okay, leave even less sort of doubts go to the next slide. So this is now when the computer kicks in and Kamehameha school tells us the answer to your question, the Soto. How is the future of salt going to look like? Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things, you know, Martin, you come from a European tradition where there are town squares and in some cities in Europe there are immense plazas and South America as well which come from a European tradition. We don't here in Honolulu have those immense plazas. Now, the immensity and the view plane in one sense can be very uplifting and exciting because the sheer space is so big. But at the same time, you don't want to linger because as you just pointed out, there's no shade. It is paved. You may cross it on your way to something but you're not going to just stand there. It's not likely unless you're looking at the view. So what salt has is a lot of smaller more intimate spaces where you're not overwhelmed and you are protected. You can be in the shade. You can gather really big spaces may look impressive and they may be uplifting to gaze upon but you don't necessarily want to go and live there and spend a lot of time there. So what I'm looking at in this view here is a huge boulevard with an open space right in the center that people are crossing in diagonal, you know, red light situation. But even though there are trees it is not looking like you want to be there for any length of time. Well, where you want to be is I see some blue up there horizontally. There is some pool there. Yeah, but you don't get to go there. That's only the people who own there or rent in there, right? So that's just not what you've been talking about, Matt, where you make the private public or, you know, you may get inclusive. This is highly exclusive. And you got the same old, we're in the 21st century, way into, and Matt, you said, when you left as you said, wouldn't this be the island with basically mainly electric cars because this is the best circumstance? But I want to go, we discussed, we have been dedicating many shows to that, the Soto, and we show quotes, you know, one with two up there to the right. If we find, because we got the most ideal circumstance and it's not only for renewable energy, which would fuel electric cars, but also basically for public transportation of multimodal way as, you know, moving bands and gondolas and all that stuff that even works in winter resorts. But, you know, when you don't have the snow, we remember, you know, we got the job for the canopy for the subway in Bochum because it always snows on and it goes kaput. And that's why they could save some money. You don't have this here. So really for continuing the 21st century, potentially post-fossil and multimodal, really wasting the parking, the first couple of floors to that fossil dinosaur, I mean, or even if you say it's a post-fossil, but to that very inefficient and ineffective chunk that clogs the streets because it's not going to be less traffic jams and congestion with electric cars, right? It's solving the air is more breathable and there isn't as much oil on the roads, but the rest of the problems basically stay, right? And that's, yeah, so this isn't very encouraging and we have to go more into the architectural detail also because the first of these projects that they basically told us is going to be up is the one that we see at the left in the very back of that new stuff here in the left. And for that one, Eric, we have to go back forward to the previous slide and quickly read through the project description here and that needs you to sort of, because once again, they're using Hawaiian birdage here. Yes, yes. Yes, workforce and affordable housing. The Kahuina mixed use project will include two residential towers, a 43 story tower named Lamaku, meaning large standing torch is planned to offer up to 120 units of workforce for sale housing in addition to 329 market for sale units. Addition adjacent to story is called Mamalu and like, oh, oh, and honoring the legacy of Princess Victoria Kamamalu will feature 125 units of affordable rental housing, 273 ground floor commercial space, nine story, 3000 stall parking lot, garage, 12 little work lofts, open air gathering places. Okay, so yeah, some some really big, really big towers and a huge parking area. Yeah, and we want towards you more than with this torch that we're gonna show you at the beginning of next week show, but I promise, promise, promise that we skip on our weekly because I'm sure there's gonna be a new project popping up that we skipped. So we only show you that one on one slide to then bring the hope up high again and reconvene with the all inclusive, easy breezy in its way as much as it can be in temperate climate, gents I'm building. So until then, please have a good week guys and everyone else and see you next week for that. Bye bye.


Good morning. Everyone's taking a few more minutes to be able to come on in. Good morning. Liz can do that mic check again. I was not quite sure. Yep. That's much better. I don't want to lose Liz in here. That's terrible. I know saw it isn't going to be joining us, but we also don't really require form for this particular meeting as it's going to be a discussion and I really hope no voting. So I will be very surprised, Liz, if you come up with something to vote on then. I think so too. So let's see if I can find the deck. I know you'll be sharing it anyway, but if you can post a link to it, that'd be great. All right. Do you think we're ready to get started? Have we got enough? Yeah, we can rock and roll. Welcome everyone. Hope everyone's feeling both energized and recovered after KubeCon. So I think the main topic for today is the DevSecOps end user radar, which I think a few people, actually it's Justin here. It is indeed. Hello Justin, hope you're feeling better. And Ricardo and I and I think a few others sort of had some opinions on this radar. So I think maybe if we go on to the next slide, it illustrates what it is that we're talking about. I think, so the end user radar is currently something that's handled entirely outside of the TOC community by the end user community. And I guess some of what I'm going to say is probably just my own opinion, but I think a lot of these have been really useful and give us some insight into what end users are really adopting in the real world. But when it came to this particular one, certainly I had some concerns. I heard some concerns from other people. And I think we need to have a conversation about how the TOC community, like what value we would like to get out of these end user radars, how we could potentially, I mean, we're a technical oversight committee. So perhaps we should be exercising some technical oversight and making sure that these radars actually make sense as they get published, particularly, they're getting published in the CNCF's name. We should, ideally we would all be aligned and have confidence in these radars. So I think I wanted to just make sure we had the opportunity to air concerns about these and maybe try and think of some constructive ways that we could engage with the end user community to go forward and make sure that we're producing good versions of these things. So I think the next slide has some of the concerns that we thought of and I would love to hear from other people disagree or if they feel that we're missing things, then this could certainly be a discussion, should be a discussion. I believe that the fundamental source of issues for this particular radar was the scope in the first place. I think DevSecOps is such a broad scope that it's not very clear which projects would or wouldn't be included in that. There's a lot of different solutions in that radar that have some kind of association with security in a very loose sense, but I don't think it really serves very well to compare GitOps solutions against key management solutions or CNI plugins against CI CD platforms and that's what this particular radar seemed to be presenting. I know that when they brought up the whole proposal of the end user radar it was a deliberate decision not to include, not only to include CNCF projects, I think that's great because it means we may get exposure to some other projects that we're not really aware of and it gives us some ideas about what maybe is missing from the CNCF landscape, but personally I do not believe we should be promoting commercial products in these radars and I think as a kind of corollary to that we should be very consistent about whether we're including vendor names in those radars. So some of those projects, if we just skip back to the previous slide Amy, yeah, so there's some things in there that are open source projects, there are some things in there that are commercial products, there are some things that additionally have a vendor name associated with them, I mean you know, HashiCorp, a big fan of HashiCorp but why do they get to have their name associated with Vault and Sentinel where JFrog doesn't get to say JFrog for X, right, as an example. So I feel like there needs to be a kind of sense check on these radars when they're published. So I think those were the concerns I had about that particular radar and Riccardo, Dims you've got your hand up please. I can wait for Riccardo to go first. Can you hear me? Yes.  I was just going to say, yeah, I agree with what Liz said. I would also say that one good thing I find in these user radars is that we get like a kind of dump of what the end users are actually focusing on which products they're actually focusing and coming back from Kupkan last week, one thing I noticed is that they're, even if we have like a mix of different projects here, there is some value here to see for example a lot of people are using things like Argo and Flux and they would probably traditionally do something like SOPs to encrypt their secrets when they're doing GitOps and it's all kind of mixing things together and one thing that I saw is that a lot of people started using for example Argo with Vault and they suddenly start doing like rotation of their passwords just for free. And it's a huge improvement instead of just encrypting in Git their one-time passwords and never changing them. Now suddenly there's a solution that allows them to do like constant rotation of the passwords without having to focus on this. And when I look at this like multiple projects I agree with Liz like Argo and all these other projects in the same like diagram it's kind of confusing but they do start mixing in the ways end users focus on them. One of the things that came out in the discussion video of this end user radio was this that the focus on DevSecOps was actually at the expense of developer experience and maybe these things are kind of helping, I don't know. It's just I agree it's a bit confusing but they do start giving some value by connecting to each other. Do they give value through this diagram or is their value from combining. I don't think that this this diagram really tells us anything about using Vault to store secrets for Argo CD. Yeah exactly no it doesn't come out of this but they do like when combined and maybe maybe it's just not expressed properly having them like as single bullets maybe we should say more like what is used with what not just pumping names. James you had your hand raised the phone. Yeah I was trying to figure out if there is a GitHub repository where they assemble this and you know just like landscape we have a GitHub repository where PRs are made so I couldn't exactly figure out how this came about or how this specific set of things came about and whether that process is you know open where we can go in and chime. So may we answer that. Yes this is a form that is sent to the end users and it's basically an Excel sheet where each end user puts a column for themselves and then they for each of the products there they say the level assess trial adopts for the ones they actually touched and they can add new lines, new cells if they have other products to add. Got it then the follow up question would be like how did these names came about that ended up in the form right like so basically I'm looking for like what was the transparent process where we as the TOC could insert ourselves to provide some feedback at some point before it gets published that was basically what I was looking for. I think that is at the heart of the problem I don't think there is such a point right now yeah Dustin I think you are next. Yeah I mean I think that I think the process of people just adding things that they lump into this area is just a little bit weird I mean I think that if this was stories about how people had learnt to do DevSecOps better by using these tools it would be really exciting like if GitHub Actions has helped your dev and security and ops teams work better together that's a great DevSecOps story that I would love to hear but it's just this as I said previously it's just the kind of just having assess trial adopters and the data just makes like it just makes it a really weird list of things that appears to be fairly random you know it's just like you know it's different things these are not fulfilling one purpose at all there are lots of different pieces of infrastructure that you know it's not it's not clear to me that DevSecOps I mean you know I kind of given up on DevSecOps being a movement up or about people anymore but even if you think it's about tools it's a really weird set of tools but I'd love to hear people's stories about how these made their DevSecOps process better and Adam making the point in chat but isn't that more of a problem with the definition of the category and I as I said at the beginning I completely agree I think that the choice of category is or the scope of what these things are is unclear in this example Harry you were next I think and then Matt yes yes so first of all I just want to share the same feeling with Justin and I think the first impression when I saw this radar as a user I want to fit I want to say it's more like some kind of recommendation for example if I want to adopt the DevSecOps practice I will definitely look at it adopt section I will say oh there is Argo CD there's OPA there's Terraform but I think the issue here is there are many project here or many product here that are actually have very wide scope for example Terraform it's not guaranteed that if I adopt Terraform I can adopt the best practice of the DevSecOps and also this kind of issue I think also applies to many projects like E-Steel like there is GitHub actions it's still very hard for the user to get how can I practice these DevSecOps philosophies even I saw this picture so that is one that I'm thinking about maybe we need more five grand high terms in this project for example I think somebody mentioned by reference GitHub actions maybe we are talking about GitHub action security module or something like that instead of the whole GitHub action thing that is one fitting when I first saw these the names in this radar yeah Matt you also had your hand yeah I mean I concur with much of what's already been said but in addition just you know if I didn't have context right if I had just heard about the CNCF but I was into open source and I saw just this slide what does it tell me right does this mean that the TOC and or CNCF says I should only assess LinkerD it's not really ready for me to adopt even though LinkerD is you know a graduated project and foundational you know for some for many technology stacks right you know MTLS everywhere like that's a great building block but does this mean that I shouldn't use it yet because it's not ready like you know you could very easily get some very interesting takeaways in terms of like what does the TOC suggest I do to secure my cloud native systems so I think in addition to everything else that's been said you know maybe you know I think it's an opportunity for folks to contribute and you know in terms of like optics and just overall messaging visually like so every slide should be able to stand alone and this one is highly ambiguous for me in a number of different ways yeah agreed and I think the point you make about the implication that the TOC thinks this and we don't at the at the moment have any involvement at all yes exactly this is not from the TOC yes of course of course I just mean like I would just want to highlight it as an opportunity for folks with a background in you know how to do this and what the nuances are this is a wonderful opportunity to contribute and to broaden our tent and to bring on new voices to help with this kind of of an issue so yeah I don't mean to whine or rant I just want to highlight it it's an opportunity to have a background in this that makes sense Alex you're next hiya so apart from you know the ambiguity on this particular one because obviously deaf psychopsis is a weird conglomeration of different technologies I think the challenge is how do we because this some of the issues you mentioned around you know commercial companies versus open source and you know who's contributing to the list of products in the first place is not something which is specific to just this radar but it's also something that maybe happened in some of the other radars you know and should this even be a CNCF technology radar as opposed to the CNCF and user group radar and you know what's the sample size and how many people are contributing as well you know so if 20 organizations which are particularly in a particular area are contributing to this list it doesn't necessarily mean it's the generic list for everybody in fact it might actually be a misrepresentative sample right so the way it's branded right now it makes it look as if the CNCF is endorsing this and I think that's a fundamental problem because the CNCF is not endorsing it and it's not actually involved in generating the list other than facilitating the forum with the end users. Yes and Bob making the point that the site and if you looked at the link that someone posted earlier with the methodology that quite consistently calls it the end user technology radar CNCF end user technology radar but then the image does not I'm not quite sure where I pulled that image from but it's very it implies that it is representing the view of the CNCF Right and the issue with that ambiguity is of course you know then it gets misused in 101 other marketing blogs all over the place right Absolutely You downloaded it from the link at the bottom on the radar page where it says download PNG or SVG Yes you're right I did and it's different from what's displayed on the page Yes Bob's also posted an older one the secrets management one and that I think is a really interesting contrast because it is much more you know concentrated on actual secrets management solutions It does again include quite a lot of commercial tools as well as open source I don't know whether that is something that we should be concerned about whether we should I certainly have a concern that if the CNCF is seem to be giving kind of a free free promotion to some vendors and not others that will so bad feeling and I know it does say bad feeling because some of that bad feeling has been expressed directly to me by some of the vendors Ricardo Araveni you have your hand up Yes so I think everybody talked about you know how this is very broad and I think most of us agree that it may not be that useful for any user so I think the next I'm thinking of the next steps it would have in like a process where the TOC and the TAG engage with the end user folks in the CNCF and the end user community to improve this or to help out so having some way of engaging or maybe having some way of saying before this is published can it be reviewed by the TOC or by the TAGs? Yeah and I think Erin suggested at the beginning of the call yes Erin should we have the TAGs that these before they're published which is I guess if we have it as the CNCF for sure but if we want to just change it explicitly to this is what users are using and this is their experience outside of the CNCF blessing I don't know no matter what we publish even if it says CNCF and user group it's still going to be associated with the CNCF so I think it's hard to detangle that relationship Yeah I agree I wonder whether one of the good points we could try to get inserted or insert as a technical group whether it's the TOC or the TAGs right at the beginning of this group is picking a particular area to focus on maybe the TAG or the TOC could just sanity check that the scope makes sense and maybe propose a list of projects that we think should be considered because I think somebody else made this point that the way it works as users fill out the survey or the spreadsheet they can add new projects and the last person to fill in the sheet you might add something that actually everybody else is using but it wasn't on the sheet when they filled in the form and you could imagine that actually significantly affecting given the small sample number that could really affect the outcome so maybe having hopefully pretty knowledgeable group pre-populating that spreadsheet should be under consideration might help Matt you have your hand raised yeah I think so I participated in the end user radars as an end user and I think they are very valuable and your assessment that folks can just add things is correct I think perhaps we need to do two things really and to reiterate what you had said earlier Liz which I fully agree with the technical oversight committee can express some opinionated technical opinions which it does through the whole framework of projects but perhaps if there was this in its current form as an adoption metric or an adoption radar what are people actually doing and if a project name is there to me that means that they are running the project directly themselves via leveraging a vendor what vendors are being used out in the community to do to have the market that we hope to build and we have built where open source projects fuel an ecosystem of competitive friends that are leveraging the same underlying technology so perhaps the TOC should additionally produce a radar where the only thing on it are projects you know we could say hey for DevSecOps which I agree is a tortured category but for category name you know we the TOC think that these projects and highlighting graduated and particularly relevant incubation projects to me would be like where I would start so that technology leaders and architects that are crafting their own solutions using these technologies have some guidance you know at a high level about what the landscape of building blocks goes is if you will so I think filling that vacuum versus trying to make the one radar all the things might again be an opportunity to expand the TOC's perception as more concretely useful to solutions builders that's it I'd love to find a way that we can kind of because I completely agree it's very useful to get an indication from end users about what they're actually using but it would be really great if we could get consensus over what even falls into the same category we do have categories in the landscape they're not perfect in any way but they exist and they're maintained and they have a list of projects in with reasons why projects in there so that would be one possible task would be to say to the end users perhaps you could concentrate your end concentrate your themes on either an area from the landscape or possibly even a subset of an area from the landscape yeah we could also empower them right like we could actually just generate this you wouldn't have to be subjective it could be driven from the landscape just a more zoomed in view of the entire sector that might be cross cutting or maybe if the categories don't fit but so these end user technology radars or adoption radars might be prefaced with you know from the TOC like a format like for this sector here are the projects the graduated ones, the incubation ones sandbox I don't know probably not but I don't know but at least to preface the discussion of vendors which are thriving in an expanding market that are being adopted and then it's not subjective it's just it's data useful data I guess that does raise a question of why and maybe just because nobody thought of it but why the end users didn't start from the same direction of projects that were together in an area of the landscape if I could just be so bold after this and go back to raising hand but I think the reality for many end users is it's difficult to assemble the talent or the bench that has the capacity on top of keeping the lights on to really go deep and do these assessments that's why as an end user for me probably the most useful artifact has been the due diligence reports and I don't know what it's going to look like but you know many of my colleague he requires a base level of technical complexity and a deep enough technical bench to do those to start from the projects so it's a quick start here which might really accelerate Yeah I think I did have another slide that had some broader ideas I know that was all right it was just other considerations about there's one comment that I had about this is that having a separate waiter for open source project may not be necessarily the best because there's a lot of gaps in the open source projects in the CNCF and some of those gaps are covered by some vendors so I think it might be useful to show that some of those things are really covered by vendors but yeah just a comment Yeah I think it was you specifying which one's open source and which one's on as part of the radar that sounds pretty useful to me Yeah Maybe one thing we could do also taking your sentence there in the slide about getting the TLC community input into the end user radar one thing that would be useful is also the other way to have more input from the end user radars into the TLC community because all these interactions between the different projects and how they are used together would be actually very constructive to better understand the landscape and even gaps in the projects that in the CNCF Yeah and I actually think that's one of the potential things that we can learn from these radars as you know where we see there are non-CNCF solutions that's super useful input for sure So I think in practice some of the things that I've heard people suggesting and I think these make sense were that at the start of this process the end users maybe the I'm just going to say the TLC community I don't know whether it devolves to tags or how we do that but that we could kind of help preface that end user discussion by saying okay if you want to look at I don't know I'm just going to pick storage here is what we currently have on the landscape for storage this is the set of projects this is how we currently see them from a Sandbox incubation graduation perspective maybe there are other projects you would also add to this set of projects but use that to kind of seed the set of projects under consideration the labelling of whether they're open source or not and again that could be done in the spreadsheet I think we're at risk in some cases of ending up with the open source project and the commercial implementation of that project potentially even being in different parts in the radar and that would be kind of odd and there's also the concern that a lot of companies have their open source project and then they enhance the open source project like open core to make it some solution that they can actually charge for do we want to specify that there in the radar or not that would go beyond the scope of what open source is I mean just at a more generic level though if the end users are voting what they're using that may have some overlap with the CNCF in terms of projects that the CNCF is involved in but actually the overlap might be minimal in many areas I mean I don't think it's necessarily a given that the radar is going to be CNCF projects I mean it's going to be they're probably going to be products from vendors or from projects which are in the broader landscape but that doesn't necessarily mean they're CNCF projects and in fact that probably just anecdotally has to be guessed that half or more easily are not CNCF projects right so I mean so that's where the whole kingmaker thing comes into play because effectively the CNCF ends up promoting things which aren't even CNCF projects right yeah and I suppose if I may if I'm a CNCF project and I see a competing non-CNCF project being promoted by the CNCF I may feel somewhat aggrieved Matt you have your hand again yeah I mean I think in terms of the kingmaker concern one way potentially to ameliorate that but also you know set what we do want is that the CNCFs really you know they're deliverable if you will their value is fostering the ecosystem of vendors that are using these projects in all manner of creative ways so as an end user you know what I really look to from the CNCF is to say okay for the vendors that might deliver value to my business with whatever level of UX and optics and usability you know is valuable to me based on my needs as an end user you know I want to part of my diligence you know as a decision maker is to ensure that the vendors that we're using happily right because it's hard to run some of this stuff or it's complicated whatever that they're in alignment with the overall like open standards and protocols and core technology building blocks so that you know fast forward a few years I'm not you know having business critical things that are not that are then reliant on something that's not in alignment with the overall architectural and technical roadmap of the CNCF umbrella and family if you will so you know for me it's an opinionated thing from the TSC doesn't mean like we're making it's not a king maker thing like now it shall use this or we bless that but it's here's the building blocks that come from this open source communities that we're fostering and then here's the vendors that are using these in overlapping and different and creative ways that's still in alignment with the overall trajectory of the cloud and so I think it's nuanced but the governance piece really is providing the framework like that's the output that's the value of the TSC to let the whole thing exist you know with some guide rails so I don't know if it's messaging or if it's just making it clear that you know the first said maybe the preface that comes for all of these radars is like here is the here's the source material that these vendors pull from in the form of project and then some of those projects can be used directly and are and others you know can be used by having somebody else run it for you or delivering sort of a batteries included approach but understanding the relationship between those two kind of building blocks and concrete usable you know by a business today now I think you know is more than the sum of either of those two parts right put together yeah yeah I like that was supercharged the radar you know what I mean and it would make it like a go to you know and then that like feeds this virtual cycle that expands the breadth you know of the CNCF in a way that meets people's needs where they are people being end users and that feeds more vendors and all of it but isn't that sort of like landscape in a way or maybe landscape has something that the radar doesn't or the landscape is too broad and the radar is just kind of like just you know like kind of yeah that first part is like a filtered subset of the landscape right you know if you actually actually put this in a talk just a coupon last week you know like the eye chart of the entire landscape it's just like it's too much to rock at once so it's not perhaps used as much you know I would advocate you know as a starting point just like make a filtered subset that's auto generated that generates all of these radars and then they're just available as a template framework you know to the end user radar efforts which I don't want to disparage right you know they're wonderful they're the best data point of God yeah and I don't want to I don't want to end up with it looking like the TOC is trying to force the end user community into a certain opinion that they don't actually hold I just feel that we well yeah in this particular example we probably would have suggested a different focus and we might have suggested some additional projects and I'm sure we would have used the landscape as a as an initial point to see that and I think maybe not even just the landscape because there might be you know projects that the tags are aware of and it would be really I'm thinking for example of runtime where we know there's a ton of wasn't projects kind of bubbling up and knowing whether or not end users are looking at particular projects so out of that set might be really interesting just as an example but yeah I feel like we do need to seed some of this Tim's so as an organization we you know the end user community and TOC and other people what we have in common is the landscape which is structured information that we have I think if the end user community doesn't see stuff that they are using there then it should be added to the landscape and then making it complete and then like Matt was saying they should be like a filter on top of that which is what is called a radar right now but it is an actually a survey right like it is it is the reflection of what people are doing right now or what people are thinking end users are thinking right now and it's not like a recommendation going forward either right like it's where they are right now in terms of like yes some people have adopted issues some people have not and it reflects what they are using right now so if we shift it around to say hey look here are the end users this is the landscape out of this landscape here is the list of things that they are using and these are the things that fall into different categories right so if we set it up that way and showcase it as current CNCF end users this is what we got from them this is what they are using in the day to day work rather than what it is right now so if we can change it around in this case like whether it is the tags or the end user all they will make sure is that the landscape is complete and then any voting stars whatever is on top of the landscape and a subset of the landscape which can then be published periodically right so they would potentially be running the survey based on a section of the landscape right or they could pick like multiple sectors too like this year we are going to do storage and we are going to do observability for example right like and have two radars published and I think it could be smaller than that potentially I thought secrets management was really interesting because it was a subset of what we it is almost like magic quadrant kind of scenario right like so yeah if so maybe this is a question for end users like Ricardo or Matt having been through the process of these end user radars do you think it would work to start from the landscape and work from there I can say something I think it would work but we would lose this additional feedback of like things that are not in the CNCF that end users are integrating into their deployments like this would be maybe valuable input for everyone actually what I think would be great would be to have more information than just adult assess trial but this is maybe a demand for the end users that would probably reduce the number of replies if there's like too much effort to start writing these things right now it's quite quick to go through this process maybe that's why also the results are pretty good so maybe the answer is to start from the landscape or section of the landscape have the ability for the end users to add these additional things that we're not currently listing for whatever reason and then we can look at that and say well should we be should we be adding those sorry I had a Bluetooth kit problem yeah I think starting from a subset of the landscape to me it's less important that it follow the lines and the categories in the current landscape but over time I would think that we could use if there's a big difference then perhaps we want to make more subcategories in the landscape but certainly starting from just like these are the set of projects because it can be a lot if you have to come up with a platform and a roadmap and then put it into production and into practice meaning there's some boring skills on your teams and whatnot it can be hard to keep track of all the things in all the sectors that you're responsible for so I really think again if there were just a data driven these are the things in scope for this sector as Liz and others had been talking about that would provide that context and a mental model and you can actually think of visualizations that kind of like show a graph with fan outs for what vendors are leveraging which technologies and we could even engage vendors and they just like they're proud to say I'm a CNCF member and a vendor they're proud to say I contribute to this project or that project that's something in the tag observability we have as a work stream that is no small feat so if there were some top down guidance to meet efforts already underway to make those mappings a little more clear it could be here's the context and then here's the end user radar which is again easy to generate and low friction for the reasons that folks had said that can remain the first part of it shows that mental model so that when someone looks at that radar they can make the connections that they need to make about what's important for them which technologies are more or less important to the bottom line of the business thank you Alex you have your hand yeah so I actually think linking into the landscape might be a good idea but I think the key thing in all of this is going to be about the quality of the data and that's both in terms of which products get looked at whether they're open source and commercial and whether they're on the CNCF landscape or not and secondly who's providing input to those surveys because it's not just the number of end user companies but it's also who in those end user companies were polling so if there's a nominated person for some of these companies which I suspect is how this runs then some of these organizations are huge organizations with tens of thousands of engineers and it's unlikely that any single person is actually going to know exactly what's happening in the whole organization anyway but the key thing is if it's these these end user radars are valuable if somebody can look at them and actually make useful decisions based on this and I think that's the value of polling the end users because we find out what the end users are actually using but if on the one hand the data is maybe too specific or too focused because we're not polling the right people or we're not including or excluding the right projects then it either becomes too broad or too focused and then people don't find that useful so this is part of the equation the data is the most important thing and how we keep it up to date because if you're going to go through the phase where you actually say these things definitely use and these things only evaluate then we should probably also specify some sort of review or at least get the end users to review after a period of time because some of those end user radars are now a year or two old and we're kind of condemning certain organizations one way or the other which is also a factor here Do you think we should actively be archiving these after let's say a year? Potentially I mean it would be better if we were doing this under a CNTF banner we should probably be reviewing them or at least say provide some sort of information as to why they're current or not current otherwise otherwise data becomes expired and poor and the poor data is the thing that I'm most keen on to to make sure it's appropriate because 30 people from 30 individual companies which might only be responsible for specific themes in those companies doesn't necessarily mean it's actually a valid set of data it could be very focused or we could be missing entire chunks right but you know it's hard to tell and we're then sticking the CNTF stamp on it to kind of indicate that it's supposed to be fair but it doesn't necessarily mean it's right Ricardo also having a conversation that I think is relevant to this about how sometimes we have graduated projects that maybe appear as assess which is kind of weird and confusing but as Ricardo points out it's weird that that happens because we interview end users for incubation so there must have been people using these things but maybe those people who we spoke to at you know for incubation or graduation reviews are not necessarily aware or involved in these radars and we're getting a very different picture well you know there's a cost to entry to being an end user in the CNTF right people have to pay for that subscription so you're getting people who are you know committed to the ecosystem and wanting to help the CNTF but that doesn't necessarily mean it's it's you know they're end users that we would have interviewed in the incubation stage okay I think we've got a lot of very useful ideas here I don't know how we resolve some of these like how do we what do we do when we have a graduated project that is not appearing you know when it's appearing in the SS phase I don't know that we have a good answer to that but I do think we have some suggestions here that we should take to the end user community and Katie and ask for input at this earlier stage I think the things that I'm taking away now is starting from the landscape as a first point of sort of listing what should go into the survey agreeing the scope of that survey and crossed my mind that this is an opportunity for the end user and TOC communities to work together which we don't have enough of those so I hope that scene is valuable from the end user's point of view as well I think we should raise the possibility of archiving them after some period of time because yeah, if they're two years later and we're still saying this graduated project is in assess that's going to be very misleading and we should try and look for ways of keeping these more up to date I think we need to be more prominent about the fact that these come from a set of end users and maybe indicating the number of respondents like including that in the graphic so that when it's downloaded it's more clearly labeled as hopefully representative but nonetheless it's a snapshot of a survey of a certain number of end users at a particular point in time the last one I had was don't position this as you should do this it's more of like this is what we have found so changing the way to look at the data to reflect that it is a consensus of end users up to this point and it's not like something looking forward right, it's looking backwards that's a great point that those words assess trial and adopt sound imperative, don't I? Yeah, it does I think there was another point about connecting the dots between the vendors and the open source projects Yes I see that as providing more information in the radar because when you take a snapshot or when you see the visual there's a lot of questions and you try to think about how to address those questions and that first visual when you see that and connect the dots it's something to keep in mind Yeah, I think that's a very good good point to add Alright, with five minutes to go anyone have any other points they want to make about this general topic? I'll just make one small point I kind of I kind of probably might have come across a slightly negative here I actually think the end user radars are really valuable and useful and there's probably more right in them than you know, wrong and so this is one of those things where the last 20% was probably 80% of the work and we should think about how we factor that in but 80% of it is actually pretty good and very, very useful and there's been a lot of positive feedback for it too so yeah, I didn't want you know, I don't think we should throw the baby out of the box or so to speak And then the other one that I also thought about was Ricardo's point of how we use these things together it's almost like this is our stack like so if you if you let the end user say design their own stacks like I use these set of technologies together and then basically what on them saying hey, this is the most popular one you know, that might be another way to look at it. This is the whole reference architectures idea, isn't it? I use Argo CD and I use Alt and then I use Litmus with whatever right, like this is my stack that I use in my company right, like so that would bring out these additional you know tidbits instead of like if we just have a radar for storage it really doesn't make any sense but if we work on like here is the stack here is a different set of variations of stacks that might be something there too. Yeah, I love the idea of this and in fact it did come up as a suggestion in the governing board that could we be doing more in terms of reference architectures and I think this has come up in the TOC before and I think everybody is in favour, just a question of finding the time with the caveat that we shouldn't have one reference architecture we should try and have and ideally they come from end users and this is what end user A is doing, this is what end user B is doing, this is end user C again it can be a snapshot in time but if we could get those you know kind of case studies I suppose in the form of reference architectures that would be amazing. Some plus ones. Bob's saying I like the idea of a user story in a stack and describe why and what they're using. Yes, hearing decision logic on why they chose a specific thing would be useful completely agree. Really good. Alright, I think this is super useful I'm sure because people like Ricardo are representing end users on the TOC but we'll also I think in the TOC just write up some notes to kind of propose to the end users in a formal sort of a way so we've got something written down but I think we can take this to the next level of usefulness together. Thanks everyone for all your ideas and input this was super. We didn't have anything else did we? Nope, that was it. Brilliant, take care everyone. See you soon.