views them as unruly is because it is extremely convenient to view this particular group as unruly because they look different and since oftentimes people who look different come from very far away or have been subject to intense institutional abuse in the past they tend to not have access to valuable property and tend to be underrepresented within the elite ruling class for whom the state deploys its violence in short this misperception becomes a vicious cycle it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy it becomes racism and it leads us to moments like we had last summer now this is a disturbing thought it is much more comforting to imagine that our social institutions are on average functional that important distinctions and decisions like who should be led into the country who should live where how much they should be paid for their work and whether or not they should go to jail or be deprived of their possessions or their life are being made for good and sensible reasons but you heard John Ehrlichman on the position of the Nixon administration obviously humanity American human culture is a work in progress so what's the answer here how do we solve this problem how do we fix the society that from its very inception was in part purposefully designed by stupid cruel and downright evil men men like Richard Nixon Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton stretching all the way back to the founding of us as a nation a nation that I might remind everyone here was built on the purposeful extermination of one race and the enslavement of another that's certainly something I asked myself after the police killed Eric Garner prompting the very first Black Lives Matter march in NYC I asked him as I watched Bloomberg's stop interest harass more Black and Latino men in New York City than the total population of all Black and Latino men in New York City I asked it as I listened to a recording of cops threatening to break a Black teenager's arm for quote being an effing mutt and I'm the one censoring there the cop said the full word just a short distance from my own doorstep in Harlem I asked it last summer as riot swept the nation a powder keg ignited by the murder of George Floyd by thankfully former police officer Derek Chauvin and I'm asking it now the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem we cannot afford to be cowardly we must admit that uh that this society does indeed undervalue Black lives and we must take steps to remedy that situation no justice no peace can also be read as no justice no peace k n o w as in when true justice is brought about then and only then will peace reign and that is why I support Black lives matter and I've put my body and freedom on the line for them more than once and that's why you should too thank you thank you very much Brenton for that opening statement folks want to let you know we are absolutely pumped this is a 12 hour stream and tonight oh baby you don't want to miss it t-jump and Nathan Thompson will be debating the shape of the earth so we're finally going to get our answer on that topic and also want to remind you that our guests for each debate are linked in the description that includes both Brenton and your nausea thank you so much gentlemen for being with us and oh folks if you're listening to the modern day debate podcast you can also find our links of our guests in the description box for that podcast episode as well and so gentlemen thanks so much the floor is all yours yeah I want to respond but a lot of it didn't really address BLM so like I can pick out some things that might relate to BLM but so so we didn't seem to address BLM directly because what I'm dealing with here is I'm dealing with a history that people are ignorant of the fact of the matter is is that BLM is just the latest in a number of movements that have been created in the United States by the Black community and by people interested in protecting the Black community um specifically to respond to a malicious government targeting of Black people for the purposes of profit can I ask you one can I ask you one question sure okay let's say I go along with you I believe all the things you just said wouldn't it make sense that you would pick out cases that are really strong like cases that could really convert someone that if someone was like police are not killing Black people if you show them this case they'd be like wow the police just ran up and shot this Black guy out of nowhere like you would pick that case right you wouldn't pick a case where there's no real evidence of racism hang on but they do you understand what the thing is is that every one of the major cases is like that a great example would be okay well freddy gray for instance freddy gray was complete yeah freddy gray was completely harmless he was put into a freaking police um patty wagon and they did donuts in the parking lot like until they severed his spine and he died as a direct result of his encounter with the police okay okay but first I don't think there was evidence of racism there was obviously evidence of proceeding police brutality and I think the officers were punished right like I don't I don't know the officers were not punished they got off scot free and then and then you've also got eric garner eric garner in new york um once again well no no not better because you know his spine wasn't severed like freddy gray's freddy gray's not better but yeah but like eric garner in new york which prompted the very first Black Lives Matter march which I attended again he was choked to death for selling cigarettes no this is a wild exaggeration of how things went down dude I've seen the video now no no listen video doesn't tell you everything my man this is what tells you everything so what's your version okay we might have to get into three minute intervals if we if we don't have a little bit more yeah it's fine uh oh okay so what happened with eric garner is he did something illegal like we both agree it probably shouldn't be illegal but it is illegal what he did the police came up to him he resisted arrest taking a big risk he had like uh he had a condition and the chokehold they put on him they have put on hundreds of people and this has never happened before so you can still say it's police brutality you can still make the case the police shouldn't use a chokehold but to say this is evidence of racism it just doesn't fly my guy like please just give me an example where it's really racism and I support you why does it always have to be people who resist arrest who do illegal stuff who have like what do you define as racism that make them die come on man give me a good case what do you design what do you define as racism I want to hear this because I'm very in this context in the context of police versus citizen I would say it's racist if a police officer treats a citizen differently i.e worse because of the color of their skin and you don't think that the police officers put him in a chokehold because he was black they saw him as inherently more violent because we know that they do that because again I had in my opening statement they are five times more likely to deploy their guns in neighborhoods if it's a white officer so statistically speaking objectively speaking they will treat black people worse than white people who commit the same crime they do it judges do it um but you say that has to do with their environment you have to say it has to do with the areas and so not their color well it has to do with both the area no it has to do with both the area they're in and their color and they're in that area a lot of time because of their color because first in the united states black people were here as a captive um enslaved workforce then after they were freed by the civil war they were left without property without backing and then they were subjected to like decades and decades of jim crow abuse and then they were subjected to even after the passage of the civil rights bill of 1968 continued implicit um abuse and then the one third of their um one third of their men were put in prison specifically at 90 guaranteed occupancy rates to exploit their labor again yeah we get back to Eric can we get back to the Eric Gardner case sure but we the thing is is that we can't see Eric the Eric Gardner case as a single isolated incident with no other factors leading up to it the very fact that he was there selling loose cigarettes breaking the law you know the the fact that he was there is because of these uh past economic and political abuses by the state he might have been a well he might have well this would be worse than selling raw cigarettes he might have been a waltz can i ask another question yeah do you think the officer i think he was black actually who choked out Eric Gardner and the police officer who was black do you think that that officer was racist yes or no do you have any evidence for that any reason to believe it doesn't matter because i don't care about what a person is deep down in their heart no think about it like this think about it like this if someone steals your wallet do you care if deep down in their heart they consider themselves a thief or do you just want your wallet back well i obviously want my wallet back but okay so in any case right so i i don't care if deep down in that officer's heart he is a racist or not he's not going to be my best man at my wedding he's not coming in and he's not going to rent an apartment with me i'm not going to have to deal with him on that what i care about is did he do a racist action and choking eric garner to death was a race was a racist action just like putting freddie gray in the back of the freaking patty wagon and running uh uh doughnuts until his spine severed that was a racist action just like derrick chauvin putting his knee on the neck of george floyd until he freaking died that is a racist action and this is a racist all of this stuff uh comes from a long line of awful police history and awful police uh policy towards community of colors that is buoyed by the fact that laws are written and enforced by the state specifically to target them if i could hold on a second i'm i'm jumping in here to mention that we aren't it's not clear given how much time we've used already that we're addressing whether or not black lives matter in particular has done more harm than yeah so we might want to gravitate in that direction so yeah right but i will point out james this is really important because what i'm hearing from yana's is that um black lives matter is responding to incidents that are not racist and the major incident well i'm sorry they can't prove it they can't prove it hold on if you are gentlemen but regardless of like whether or not like there is actual like the debate nonetheless has been about whether or not there is this type of racism versus police brutality or both and like even granting that there is whether or not black lives matter is like done good or bad in regards to that like there's but that's like more of what we're looking for sure yeah so if i if i could if i could have the floor like the thing i'm getting at is if you want to convince me of something you have to give me the evidence if you're telling me it's very hard to prove racism because we can't look into people's hearts okay maybe blm should have focused on the police brutality side because that seems to be way easier to prove but that's like the whole thing that was their from the very beginning their point is specifically that black people are targeted more proportionality than other people so that's why i'm looking at the claim and the claim is weak so if the claim that the police do bad things is a better claim run with death claim okay don't don't don't trouble the well don't poison the well with claiming that officers are racist while we both don't even know if they are and you don't seem to care if they are just talk about the brutality and i probably agree if you have evidence so first off what's really important here is to understand there are two kinds of racism there is the kind of racism that a lot of us were raised uh being taught about which is having negative feelings towards another human being because of their race and usually that's even yeah that that type of personal racism is not the most dangerous and that's not even necessarily what black lives matter is dealing with the issues that black lives matter is is dealing with first is police killings and i want to make that very clear police killings of black men that was their primary thing from the very beginning that's what set off the whole thing but also just the system itself and how the inhuman system the machine of people that is the state that is the justice system in the united states is set up even if the person is not racist if they are acting as a police officer and enforcing racist laws created by racists they are in effect doing racism and that type is much more insidious and more pernicious now a good example of this that i might give you is is freddy gray now again freddy gray was raised are you familiar you're not from the state so are you familiar with redlining yeah i know what it is yeah okay so freddy gray was raised in a an illegal redline department that was run by a slumlord and they kept lead paint on the walls even though it was illegal so freddy gray as a child ate those paint chips like many children do as a result he was brain damaged now as a direct result of being brain damaged one of these symptoms of being poisoned by lead is in inability to think properly to behave in an overly aggressive manner and people who are poisoned by this oftentimes they don't go to college they can't hold down a job etc now he was proved that he was poisoned by that lead and he even won a case he and his sisters all won a lot of money from based upon like from the property management corporation based upon that poisoning as a child but the thing is is that because he was brain damaged he was tricked out of that money by unscrupulous lawyers who tricked him into taking a smaller lump sum payment to take what was rightfully hits and his sisters and that it happens every day again because these people are not educated they are brain damaged and i'm talking specifically about people like raised in that kind of environment all of this led to the perfect storm that eventually led to him having that run in with the cops and then eventually getting his spine severed similarly like ferguson a great example of this is that you want to talk about michael brown because that was the first nonsense case i'm not so michael brown is immaterial because there's a thousand michael brown no no no hold up hold up it's not immaterial because in your introduction you used the word unarmed michael brown was unarmed but he was unarmed really tried to grab a gun of a police officer that's okay so first off that's okay because he was unarmed it's still a killing so first off that's like the the most basic lie police officers tell when they want to get a hold of somebody they think they saw a gun they think the guys resist no no no he didn't say he saw a gun he grabbed his gun that's what he said he said he grabbed his gun now the thing is is that i have actually been arrested i was arrested with occupy wall street and when police officers grab you guys we talked about blm soon yeah like this is the point here is is that police officers lie all the damn time this is no they lie so we do want to bring it back to blm okay well with blm the blm's primary court issue beyond all of the other issues that they talk about is police violence and police killings of black men by officers and you're not as you're taking the police officers at their word when you really know no the whole like i researched the michael brown case and it kick started a lot of blm so the fact that dead was a lie is very important no it's actually not yeah michael brown that we didn't set up a debate on police brutality so we like you know what you're talking about michael brown like it was michael brown and like i we got to go back to the main subject here okay so james i just want to recognize here that his main point against blm is that the big cases that blm has used george floyd um freddy gray michael brown eric garner he's saying they're all lies which is just not the case most of it so okay that's helpful he's saying most of them lies the context so folks in the chat who are trying to make the connection it wasn't clear to me as well but i i get what you're saying now so urnaz urnaz is saying that blm has made things worse by according to urnaz by allegedly basically uh spreading this information basing it on cases that are yeah okay which is sorry guys so again my fault yeah i did it i like i agree with the freddy gray one and i agree with fielendo castillo and i have never seen any right winger say those two cases were great but most of the other cases from michael brown to garner to the last one with the guy with the knife there are so many lies surrounding it and so much racism is being invented to make it to amplify their sound that makes me skeptical and i don't know why someone who has good intentions who really wants to do something about police brutality would would like go along with all these lies just because you believe they're core point so they're not using you one one one i'm gonna point out that they're not lies i mean freaking um the the woman in uh luval um i can't remember her name she was she was shot while sleeping in her bed on a fair yeah brian taylor thank you she was shot while sleeping in her bed how can you say that's not racist okay you want to talk about that case they did shoot at her yeah hold on hold on her boyfriend shot at the cops and the cops shot no no no the cops the cops broke into the home on a no knock raid and yes he did have a gun uh i do not believe that he shot but even if he did shoot at them he was perfectly justified in shooting at them because it was a no knock raid he didn't know who they were they didn't announce themselves so 100 the fact that they targeted her um no they targeted him they didn't talk no it had no it was a hit her they didn't mean to hit her they did not come on so you've got a guy shooting a gun no hang on hang on we're gonna get into the weeds here on this and i don't want to do it especially since people haven't uh fully made this connection you're presenting it i see if the cops wanted to kill her it doesn't matter and then i promise we'll come back and give you a couple minutes look okay you keep using a certain phrase called poisoning the well and this is important here because poisoning the well is literally a a fallacy so let's take your your logic that black lives matter has used bad examples okay let's pretend that that's the case it's not the case it 100 but let's pretend it is um what you are doing here is even if black lives matter has used bad examples that you don't think personally are good examples of racism the fact of the matter is is that statistically they are still right and therefore it is a fallacy to say this time they were wrong and therefore what they talk about is not important every single example that black lives matter uses could be a lie and if they would still be correct because we have the statistical evidence to prove it you cannot be an effective political organization hold on you're not well we know that we know that they're an effective political organization though james we know that they're an effective political organization i have seen things go in the united states from people uh equating like black lives matter with the kkk to black lives matter being one of the biggest and most powerful forces in american politics to seeing uh politicians taking the knee here in the united states and that is specifically because black lives matter has been incredibly effective at getting this out so even if i were to take your premise that they got it out all based on a lie it doesn't matter because the the problem that they are pointing out is real for instance um black men are seven times more likely to be falsely convicted of murder than white men at least seven times more likely again statistical fact so at the we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the police treat black people worse than white people we know beyond the shadow of a doubt the police kill more black people out of proportion to what they to their um their population and we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the criminal justice system within the united states is set up to imprison black people and exploit them for their labor whether they are guilty or not all right we are going to jump through and ask for about three minutes yeah okay okay so that is the crazy thing like the crazy thing is that if you were right they would have so many cases to choose from there would have been like every day there would be a black guy just shot in his house by the cops like the case you're making you're making it even worse you're saying there are so many cases of black people being killed for no reason that makes it worse that they picked through the least good ones like you're even making it look worse like like my point is there are not enough cases and that's why they're lying you're saying there are so many cases and still they only pick the bad ones like not saying that's the own goal like i am not saying that i'm saying like some of the strongest ones out there and i'm i'm the strongest one so the strongest one they have is is uh george floyd where we have no evidence of racism from chauvin that like that's the best case they have hang on hang on what would you what would you take as as evidence of racism from chauvin i don't know maybe something in his history maybe he used the n word around people give me something like give me something to hang on to so first off give me the lead and have me assume that he's a racist first off you gotta give me more yeah chauvin was known for attacking for attacking people and particularly for attacking black people and they tried to get rid of him they tried to fire in like four different times but the police unions in the united states are so strong it makes it impossible to do that that's why people talk about defund and abolish the police it's not because they don't want someone in like patrolling their neighborhoods not because they don't want police it's because it is impossible to reform the police as long as the police unions hold this stranglehold that keeps psychopathic people psychopathic racist people like chauvin from ever seeing any consequences until it gets this bad point of agreement if you want to get rid of qualified immunity i think police labor unions are way too strong i'm a libertarian we can agree on it but you still really like convince me more because i want to be convinced if it's true because if it's true it's the worst thing ever and we should really stop it but like talk to your people at blm and ask them please be a little bit more critical which casers you're going to bring to the forefront because the better they are the stronger we could use it to convince people look i don't even see how you can say that chauvin is a bad it is a case chauvin was convicted of murder like convicted proven in a state in a court almost impossible to do that with a cop except for absolutely overwhelming evidence that he murdered george floyd for no good reason i think you and me can both agree that just like the oj case this was a very tense one i'm not going to say the thing about it correctly but like it's going to be hard to put this okay but wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute you just brought up the oj case i wasn't going to bring that up but i'm going to point out that you said it would be evidence if they said the n word well freaking um mark firman was like a freaking neo-nazi who said the n word yeah so you're saying that even in the oj case they had better evidence and everyone knew that was bullshit he was still guilty but even then they had better evidence they at least hang on the oj case was about was about whether or not oj simpson was guilty yeah i got away with it because in the united states if you're rich you can do whatever you want but yeah but but the the point is is that right there there was also he was guilty and the police system was racist and was trying to set him up mark firman specifically was trying to set him up and plant evidence and we have evidence that he was racist so there's yeah so yeah so so why put that as a well the point is that even in the oj case even though he was guilty they had stronger evidence of police being racist than in the george floyd case um that's crazy to me one of crazy well again the thing is is that they did have very strong evidence that chauvin was racist you're having there's two it didn't come up with a court case man it didn't come up there are two issues that you're having here one i think you've got a certain degree of ignorance going on about these cases specifically because i my what i'm going off on i think you're just listening to right wing sources that are specifically trying to disprove this now honestly man i i watched too many too much younger than my health can handle so god i'm really into left wing stuff because i want to know how you guys talk so okay but then if you were really into left wing stuff how did you not know about freddy gray no i knew about freddy gray and i never argued the freddy gray case i never said the cops handled correctly in that case i'm not saying there is no police brutality i'm not saying there are not cases that blm could use to amplify their sound that are way better than the george floyd and the gardener case okay so that's my basic point of criticism i don't think they use the right cases so essentially you're saying that if i'm right here you're saying but we already have objective evidence that um the systemic murder and the systemic imprisonment of black men by bad actors within the united states government is happening we know that that's happening right so your your your quibble here is you don't like the cases that have specifically been elevated and dealt with by blm but here's the other thing blm isn't the only force that is elevating those cases the media is what elevates those cases there are so if we look at eric garner for instance um you know that was elevated and blm took that on and kind of rose out of that because we had it on we had on video a guy who was nonviolent being choked to death we saw a freaking snuff film on on video recorded we saw everything he didn't intend to choke him right it they go on lie about that all the time you've got to understand that when i was absolutely ragdoll at occupy wall street being held by the freaking cops i was neat in the spine i was thrown into a motorcycle and the guy who's going to be yelling stop resisting stop resisting stop resisting cops lie if we go back and the thing a lot more okay but this is important because what what's happening here is he's taking cops testimony at face value when when the when the fact is is that they are no more i'd say they are less likely to be honest than the average person particularly in cases where they have been violent i think people i just don't want people are more wanting an explanation from either or both of you on how this ties back to blm itself okay so blm how this ties back to blm the organization and maybe we should get off of this point and move on to another one but like blm the organization is a like they take cases that have already caught fire and they bring them to the forefront now there's important stuff for instance with regard to the ferguson case it's there's there's a very good reason even though they didn't 100 have a choice in what that was going to be about with regard to there's so many of these i get their names all confused michael brown the ferguson police were found by the trump's own justice department to be using dogs like police dogs exclusively to intimidate and terrify only black people no possible white people were threatened with a dog and this goes back to the fact that the ferguson police department was founded as a slave catching organization and after the civil war moved from slave catching to um to to general policing this is actually how every single police precinct in the south with maybe one or two exceptions was founded they were all founded as explicitly racist organizations and one of the tactics that were used by slave patrols was to go after slaves with dogs because they were so terrifying and so the fact of the matter is is that if you've got a police department that the only thing that they're doing is targeting black people with dogs you have proof that that police department is racist beyond beyond the shadow of the doubt whether the individual officers are or not um so how does this tie into blm i think michael brown was a really good example and the fact of the matter is is even if you even if there are issues in that case and you don't believe that and you believe that that shooting and killing of him was justified the fact that they focused on him which gave national focus to ferguson which then led the trump administration the trump administration to investigate them and find this link that proves beyond the shadow of the doubt that they are racist that shows me that blm is doing a really good job of getting this stuff out into the public consciousness in a way that it simply couldn't before because you know i i didn't know about that stuff so okay if i could respond earlier on you talked about the media i fully agreed the media played a major role in this but that's why if blm is sort of a gatekeeper was sort of like a checking organization then they should look at what the media puts out and then judge if the media was right or wrong and if they were a better organization they would have said you know what the michael brown case not really great because it seems like all the evidence points to him attacking the cop so yeah he was unarmed but we don't want to lie to the people let's pick a case where the guy was really unarmed and there's no evidence from him trying to steal the gun i think we could convince way more people when we say that so the thing is it doesn't matter yeah this is the right about the media but okay the lm should still be a better organization if they want to be trustworthy and if you can see the national polls in the us the support for blm is going down it's well yes but also that's because of the riots over the past summer but so definitely we haven't even come to the riots but well this is the thing though because you're misunderstanding like have you ever been in a street protest um i've seen them i don't okay yeah so you haven't been in one okay this is important so this is really key you are acting like the riots that occurred were commanded by blm that every street protest was black lives matter and the black lives matter had control and marching orders over these people who were in the streets who then rioted that's not the case riots are like an almost like a natural disaster it's like a hurricane it come you know people don't get together and say hey we're gonna riot like sometimes they'll they'll get together and they'll try to start a riot which is by the way illegal um but the fact that a riot actually happens is not something that any one person or any group can can control it just happens if i would take your word that blm had no intention of there being riots in black neighborhoods and setting people's houses on fire and their stores okay you know what could have happened there could have been like one riot with auntie fostering shit up and then the second that happened blm could have said you know what we have nothing to do with this we care about the police brutality anyone who likes something on fire don't ever use our name like they could have the notes that they could have said arrest auntie fa like if they were an honest organization that hated riots and didn't want to ruin black people's property they could have said auntie fa get the hell out you are a bunch of racist if you light our houses on fire they could have so i will i will quote martin luther king here a riot is the cry of the unheard i know the quote martin luther king was maybe right then but he ain't right now and he maybe wouldn't have said it now uh the riot of the unheard the language of the unheard stuff right i know it yeah like yeah so basically you're saying riots are good right no yeah riot i'm saying riots are riots exist when you take a population like that and you put them in a pressure cooker you're gonna get riots it's just going to hand you know you know what you know what has i have seen from the beginning of this debate you are very deterministic like you don't seem to believe in free will like you keep saying stuff like when people are poor they're gonna commit crimes when people do this they're gonna riot like stuff happens if you put this and this together no people make decisions people make choices for people record for the record for the way what they want to do like people make choices come on do it yeah for the record i'm the furthest thing from a determinist um in fact i've been wanting to argue against determinism on this uh on this very platform to tell you the truth but my my point is is that of all of the choices that people could make systems will incentivize certain choices by uh either on purpose or by accident as externalities when you take a population and you imprison say one third of the men in that population um what's going to happen is is there is going to be an effect from that you have incentivized a certain number of choices for those men when they come out so for instance you say you're 17 like the guy in my neighborhood you got stop interest you've been harassed by the police your entire life they they quarry you in the other way they make fun of your dad for just being a traffic cop not being a real cop and they tell you that you're they're going to break your arm for being an effing mutt and then maybe later on they they catch you with some pot and they send you to prison then bam suddenly you're in prison which means you're a convicted felon which means you probably can't get a normal job and if they're doing this on the national level uh with programs and laws pushed by presidents specifically to do this so that they can go into these prisons uh and use you for your labor and pay you pennies on the dollar to make flak jackets and electronic equipment and any and american flags and whatever like we were going to you you're going to have a population of people who are more likely to make certain choices okay one question one question if blm after the first spontaneous riot if blm would have said we have nothing to do with this auntie fa get away no one who riots can still join us do you think there would have been more riots or less riots so so first off please answer the question are you i think you're confusing something first right okay if they would have said i don't think you know what auntie fa is is the point so what i would say is if blm would have said if blm wagged their finger and said no well first off blm did denounce rioting in the past they've done it the entire time but the second thing is right what well the thing is again you can't control that when it gets down to the level that these things that would have been more no i don't i don't think it would have had any effect whatsoever on whether or not there would have been riots because again what you have here is a population and a pressure cooker also i should i should add that over the last summer both sides the political aisle wanted riots and i think that's why we saw them more often the biden administration wanted riots because that makes trump look weak to their voters and trump wanted riots because that makes uh his voter base afraid and they were both counting on the on the on the political upheaval to drive out their voters for the election and you know what do you think blm handled do you think blm handled the riots correctly i would say the blm handled the riots to the best of their ability and it seems to me that blm and the biden administration which blm is not in favor of the biden administration but the fact is is that trump didn't win the election um the the fact is is that we now have um you know abolish the police and that that is now a major mainstream issue and we have high-end politicians you know taking the knee that specifically shows that they did get their message out and that those riots and everything else overall has moved the country into position where someone where a murderer like derrick chauvin can actually be convicted i guarantee you that if the case of derrick chauvin if he had murdered and everything had been exactly the same and it was 2012 i bet you 99 chance he would have walked free but the the fact of the matter is is that blm has done such a good a good job of getting this critique of the system out there of making people aware of these issues that finally police officers are finally for once beginning to suffer even a tiny amount of pushback when they you know murder people you just brought up abolish the police that is another thing that blm has initiated that will do more harm than good for black people because who needs to be the yeah who needs to be the most innocent don't understand the policies the most you guys are you perfectly trying to talk at the same time okay so you know we're doing that thing where one guy tries to go left and the other one goes left with him we're just stuck there that's a good analog so yeah can i go yeah go innocent black people people own innocent black people owning a store they need police the most yelling abolish the police will protect them less so from their perspective blm is still doing them more harm than good i'm gonna give you an example of the overton wind are you familiar with the concept of the overton window i'm a political scientist okay so you are aware of that so the fact is is that um in the united states in particular radical arguments particularly radical left arguments were almost completely removed from the equation when it came to political speech and what it was they were so far off in the unthinkable that people weren't able to judge it properly and i'll give you a perfect example is malcolm x versus martin luther king i am going to contend that if malcolm x had not existed made that radical argument um that he made martin luther king would have been treated as though he was malcolm x and that he wouldn't the the fact is is that you need that radical argument you need that that that fence supposed to throw out there to start the conversation and pull the overton window in the general direction we abolish the police let's get this straight abolish the police is not going to abolish the police at best and this is what the abolish the police are arguing for is that we should do what was done like for instance in camden new jersey where you abolish the police department you get rid of the people who cannot be prosecuted because like the bad officers that can't fire because the police unions and then you rebuild the police you get a new institution that keeps the good of the uh and you are actually able to reform this that's what defund and abolish is about it's not actually about like getting rid of the police and replacing nothing a little advice as a political spin doctor why don't you say stop police brutality or reform police and don't say they did say that yeah but this is a thing they did say that and they were treated as though they were saying abolish the police so if you've got one group yeah if so if you've got one group of people that's sitting there and making a radical a very radical argument and you have another group of people that is making a more central argument what will happen is is that the policy will naturally gravitate towards the people who are making the less radical argument so okay yeah so you're familiar you're familiar with the furguson effect right um i believe so refresh my memory with the furguson well i think it's the idea that after the michael brown case police were more hesitant to maybe sometime shoot or interact because they wanted to don't want to be seen as racist or whatever and that according to people who studied it they say has a negative effect on the black people living in the neighborhood because they're not going to be helped as much as before so you know it doesn't happen but i would have to see the actual research on that i'd have to see who's doing it um and like so if you can send me a study about that i'll take a look at it but again i think it's probably for the best police officers back off a little bit because they have one our police system is incredibly militarized at this point um there and they are treating because they're you know armed with military grade weapons and they're given like you know freaking tanks and stuff to patrol the streets what's what happens is is that that is setting a very um occupying force uh feeling between them and the community so i would be like i'm totally with you if like this would stop crazy police officers from doing crazy stuff like i would agree with you but if you look at the makia bryant case where the officer acted perfectly and saved a black girl's life he will still be targeted as if like he killed a black girl so like i hope you're right that it would have the effect that only the crazy cops don't want to crazy stuff anymore but i'm afraid it will have the effect that good cops won't even do good things because they're still going to be branded a killer because the the person they shot happened to be black even though the person they saved is also black yeah like do you see where i'm getting at so i i can see people i understand this worry of yours yeah but i think that the problem of police imprisoning and murdering black men is so bad at this point that even if you do have the double effect where good cops are reluctant to act overall you're going to have more of a push towards reform to deal with these bad cops and overall you're going to see that the the communities which are now overpoliced are going once they get that boot off their throat they they are going to move in a more positive direction even if there are some externalities sometimes where a good cop should have acted but didn't okay i got another question yeah sure i got another question for you do you think that if you're a good guy in the u.s and let's say you're white and you're a good guy and you want to be a cop right do you think that what happened in the last year and like the response to the mickey abray in case do you think someone like that is more or less likely to join the police force if he knows that even if i shoot a black person holding a knife trying to kill another black person i still might get dead threats get fired get sued like it's not attractive like you're gonna get even worse cops i'm afraid so you're gonna lose the good guys because they're like it's not worth it to me even if i save a black life i'm still going to be like some like cop killer with a badge right so that's what blm should be working towards like not having that image so it's more attractive to be a cop if you're not a cycle because so hang on you think blm should be doing public relations for the police blm should to take the notice of the mickey abray in case and say unequivocally this is good that this happened if you have a knife and you're trying to kill someone it's good that the cops shoot you also if you're black if they would have said that you take a lot of tension out of the air but if you use mickey abray it as another slaying black innocent queen yeah come on you're losing me you're losing a lot of white people you're just going to take your a bunch of marxist that doesn't help either we haven't even gotten into that one but like it's just bad marketing man like i mean what i'm going to point out is it but the thing is is that we can objectively look at what's happened with these issues and with the discourse over recent years and if this is your idea of bad marketing like blm is winning they've been winning really big trump what again trump was not reelected chauvin was convicted we have abolished the police out there we have all of these issues so clearly they are doing a really good job like they could they'd be doing a better job yeah probably anybody could be doing a better job at any point in time but it seems to me that like once like the very fact that we're having this debate right now is the evidence of what a good job they are doing listen man almost everybody is against police brutality if blm would have played their cards right they would have been at like 85 percent approval 90 percent like they're not near those numbers so we could say that they were successful in their efforts but so almost everyone no no i'm sorry not almost everyone i would say about 25 percent of the of the country is explicitly for police brutality and i will say that as trump voters are for police brutality they don't say it in those terms because when you say someone's like do you like police brutality brutality is an inherently a bad thing so you've got that there but when you have people voting for somebody like trump when you've got trump having this huge support from all of the police unions um and people celebrating the police and putting up those um thin blue line flags those people are saying i am for police brutality i want the police to go in okay no yeah listen i'm on the right side of guys i i i am just because i do know that people are going to want to talk about even though this is interesting like the the blue line uh it's like a controversial juicy and related thing but nonetheless i think people are like well it's a direct response to to to black lives matter like those those flags were not being sold until after the first black lives matter march sure and maybe hold on one sec one sec just so we can get on the they like i'm not taking any stances like theoretically maybe the the blue line stuff is like a terrible evil organized it but it but that's a different question from whether or not blm is doing more harm than good so just the right it is juicy to hear about the riots what are the alleged riots i i mean brenton i don't know if you would yeah well no i mean there there were riots there were riots riots are when lightning hits the right spot um and like you will see what's very interesting to me about the riots i watched the coverage of the riots over the summer which uh and then i also remember the coverage of occupy wall street um and i was even like arguing with destiny about this that the riot like he was like well if they were just doing what occupy wall street had done i remember when we were accused of being violent rioters in just the same way the media hit the same kind of spin on what occupy was doing which was almost entirely peaceful to the they they've got the the the pedal of disapproval all the way on the floor right now when it comes to riots they had it all the way to the floor at occupy wall street and they've got it all the way to the floor um with blm over the over the past summer and the thing is is that over the past summer it was much much more violent more property destruction people got hit people got killed nobody got killed at occupy um but the the fact is is that again this is my point if mal if malcomax had not existed martin luther king would have been treated exactly as though he were malcomax and you can even see this there's an old political cartoon um from from the period where martin luther king is standing there saying like oh uh we plan to have another peaceful um demonstration tomorrow and behind him the political cartoon is to draw on everything burnt down from a riot because the the response is exactly the same from the right regardless of what actually happened and so i think that's really really important to note and again i think about 25 percent of this pop of the united states population is for um police having the ability to act with impunity when it comes to enforcing the law or what they see as the law i think there's a lot of bootlickers out there yeah like like the thing about the riots is like there's a big difference between lighting up a police station because your point is the cops that work here are racist like that connects to way more people than we're stealing sneakers now yeah so in terms of how you present yourself that's like almost the worst thing you could do if they only book out cop cars like people wouldn't say it's great but people would be like well they did take out the police the one organization they said was bad they didn't like take our stuff like they would still be condemned but it would have a different you're thinking about this like it's one person like it's not this the people that uh for instance um burn the police station are not the people that stole the sneakers the there's there's thousands of thousands of people like if we're talking about organizations involved in this if we're talking about blm if we're talking about blm i'm talking about their response and how they incentivized and cultivated those riots and kind of said you know what martin luther king language of the unheard like they were basically saying yeah what are you gonna do and you're basically saying yeah what are you gonna do you know people feel bad they feel oppressed riots happen so i'm not saying what are you gonna do i think i know exactly what you're gonna do about that you're going to change the policies towards these communities you know again what you need to do and i said this before no justice no peace k and o w we need to have actual justice with regard to the black community we need to stop policing them so hard we need to stop falsely imprisoning them we need to stop uh you know once again if you are a black man convicted of murder you are seven times more likely to be innocent than a white man convicted of murder that is really messed up you know and again that's only scratching the surface there so if you want to see these riots not happen what we need to do is we need to one take care of the black community financially two we need to take care of the black community politically which means don't um you know don't over police them and three we need to take care of the black community ideologically i mean freaking um just with the taking the knee you saw how the country initially reacted to that and to be clear he took the knee because a veteran had said it would be more respectful to the military than to simply sit or stay in the in the in the um in the room but they turned that taking the knee into a horrible offense because even the tiniest bit of criticism even if it's respectful uh like taking the knee is enough to drive some of these people absolutely insane listen it's it's hard for me to respond to that because it's really tied in with how you guys view the flag and i have an opinion on it but you know i'm not that's culturally if you don't say you don't stand the magical cloth won't freedom like i can i can see that i can see the reason like i wouldn't kneel for like the dutch or the sternum flag because i respect them both but it's it's kind of hard for me to get into the american flag debate yeah well the point is not the american flag debate the the flag is external to this um the the point in the debate is how american culture views black people and it seems like and not just americans in general but also american institutions the prison cops view black people as a threat to life in lim particularly black males i mean that's borne out by the data um the american institutions view black people either as the political enemies of powerful politicians like richard nixon again ehrlichman admitted that or uh the other way that they view them as as a potential resource to fill that 90 guaranteed um uh you know filled beds within uh these private prisons that operate for profit so what you've got here is you've got the institutions viewing black people as dangerous and as an important resource and then that leads to where we've got you know 22 of the world's prisoners with 4 of the world's population um so you know this is really really important for people to understand that all of these issues are interconnected um and and this and part of the reason why we are just now becoming aware of it is because black lives matter has been so successful okay let me just let me just say this so a lot of the things you address like for-profit prisons and i don't know have people have a good lawyer when you know they're arrested for having a bag of weed and all that stuff like we can talk man like i'm not a lefty but i don't want people being imprisoned if all they did was smoke weed like i don't see the reason behind that so so like i really think you can gain a lot of common ground with libertarians and not all but definitely some republicans and i would just advise you i think it's you can do that better by for instance acknowledging when a good cop saves a black life and saying this is a good case don't attack this cop this is what we want to see from police officers when they come into our neighborhoods and on the other side when there's a case that doesn't get it's not up to the standard just say you know what we're going to pick one where we're like a hundred percent sure it's a bull's eye because we don't want to poison the debate anymore like maybe it's too idealistic but like that's how i view it as a black guy in europe just as a political scientist being on the right side but still not wanting the police to have like immunity to kill people like why would i i don't like to state particularly like i'm not an anarchist but i'm you know i'm rent a minarchist if you could say so yeah not that far so like maybe there's some common ground just think about what i said about the messaging i mean i definitely will keep in mind i'm not blm i'm not a smart person for them you know personally i have taken a variety of positions on police killing cases including one where you know i'm not even going to get into that because it's completely outside of the realm of this debate but suffice to say um i i think that we are kind of doing the the armchair quarterbacking at this point and what you've also got to remember is that no matter what case blm picks the right wing media machine will poke as many holes in it as possible and present it in the worst light possible it doesn't matter you know if you've got a great example again woman shot while sleeping at her bed you blame her for it no i didn't blame her come on don't be you well you said he was for yeah yeah but you said yeah so you blamed her boyfriend who acted exactly perfectly rational as to what happens when somebody breaks in your door in the middle of the night with weapons like and you don't know who they are because again the police did not announce themselves it was a no knock rate he didn't know they were police could have been anyone and he was also asleep at the time i just want to say that on the right side there are also a lot of people who are still critical so if you would present me with a case where i could consider the racism or the brutality to be so evident even if the right would go along with it i would tell right wingers don't go along with this one because this one is correct like fernando castillo like i never went against fernando castillo like everyone like from ben shapiro like everyone says fernando castillo is terrible so like if your case is really convincing you can get the biggest people on the right to agree with you i'm going to disagree with that because again these people are their positions are mostly ad hoc you know ben shapiro may pick an occasional case but he's not a good faith actor i would in fact i'd say just about every pundit right or left is not a good faith actor even if we are convinced he's not a good faith actor you cannot deny that he has influence and if ben shapiro is willing to go on the arbery case and and the freddy gray case i think and the castillo case and say you know what those three are really bad like that's a profit for blm like blm needs sure to gain ground in the culture but all but also what i'm gonna point out is you've got somebody you're essentially saying that blm needs to tailor their message to speak to the most reactionary people out there to the absolute worst racist of the worst like ben shapiro i'm saying this i'm saying if there is an abundance of cases as you claim of black men being killed for no reason you should definitely be able to select like five a year and are so strong even ben shapiro and candles always are like yeah but even then even if you so even if you did that even if you did this this thing exactly the way that you say first off there's going to be people who are going to lie about it and try to take it down in just the same way and cast as much doubt on it as possible i agree a good example um so it will give you the impression that they're picking people that aren't good simply because the right wing media machine has done its work and to try to convince everybody that you know but the good people on the right will not be able to withstand the pressure if the evidence is so clear and they would say you know what guys let's just you know i have a bad case again i think you think people are more rational than they actually are especially people on the right and i will point to the fact that you know trump uh you know he is objectively a mass murderer in that he allowed co vid to kill hundreds of thousands of people otherwise let's not get into that yeah but but but even with that even with crashing the economy and even with co vid he had a higher percentage of republicans voting for him this time around than the last time the the fact is there are a lot of people simply think yeah yeah so now there is something that you brought up that i wanted to kind of talk about here um and this is that you brought up that BLM is a marxist organization now can you please elaborate because i i know that there are marxists involved with BLM because marxists are political they're involved in the left you know in the same way that anarchists are and everybody else um and you know just all the way down to like regular old liberals and progressives so what is your beef one if BLM is a marxist organization i mean i know yeah injectivists aren't fond of marxists but like what is so into that a little bit more yeah so first off obviously you're free to be a marxist and we could still agree on police brutality and i'm not a marxist for the record yeah yeah you can oh you're also free to tell people you're a marxist and still want them to support your police and police brutality thing but i think at least two leading figures of BLM have admitted to being trained marxists or like yeah so was rosa parks the patrice coulors i think is one of them so but again rosa rosa parks was a trained marxist okay yeah as i said if the case is correct the case is correct so i i agree with you if the marxists were right on every case i would still agree with them on this point but i do not think it helps your case if you have shaky cases and you have the black fist and you allude to marxism and you talk about taking away people's property and then there are riots where people's property is being laid up it doesn't really help with the messaging that you're a peaceful organization right you get me so the first thing that you need to understand is that um you know the communist cpusa and a number of other communist parties they have long time because of what marxists are interested in you know which is protecting the most vulnerable people in society and raising them up uh like marxism has been tied in with like black liberation for a really long time individual people who are marxists in blm fine even if they're leaders it doesn't make blm a marxist organization yeah so i think it's unfair to characterize the organization like like that now there'll be some things like in one blm website somebody once um said something like along the fact that they said that they want to do abolish the traditional family now this is not good messaging in my opinion but this again just like the problem with when people hear um like uh abolish the police they don't actually realize what it is they just hear the slogan and go with what's in their head as opposed to what it actually is politically um similar things happen with like phrases like abolish the family uh the fact is is that the nuclear family in the 1950s was a product of the nuclear age hence nuclear that's why they compared it to an atom because it was the freaking fifties and everybody was up about the atom bomb that is not the traditional family that humans have lived in um so when blm has on their website that they want to um oppose the traditional family it specifically says that they want to go back to more extended families and clan based families and the thing is is that that is actually the more conservative position because that's how humans have tended to live for the longest time but these reactionaries just simply see that and they flip out and they think that these people are secret communists like red baiting is is huge in the right and they will tar and feather any individual they can get a hold of and call them a marxist whether it's freaking obama or um bernie sanders like it doesn't matter they always say they're a marxist okay but like like this claim about saying that people are communist falsely and then mentioning bernie sanders as an example bernie sanders is not a communist no but like come on like you cannot say no no here's no here's what bernie sanders is politically bernie sanders is a sock den he's a social democrat he's not even a socialist but he's also smart enough as a politician to know that no matter what he says if he says i'm not a socialist the people on the right will say yes you are you're lying so all he did was he very brilliantly got ahead of it and told everybody he was a socialist and a democratic socialist and it's a new thing and he pulled the discussion to the left now i think that's a really good thing because i think american politics are way way too far to the right overall um but but the fact is is that bernie does not actually advance any socialist policies he doesn't want for instance any worker control of the means of production and most he'll talk about voluntary co-ops as opposed to the government seizing like actual capital and giving it to the workers so similarly there's a lot of red baiting going on and then secondly you know yeah are there marxists involved with a leftist political organization absolutely because marxist marxism it's a small force but they are very political and they're involved in a lot of organizations and like there's not i don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that um rosa parks again trained marxist rosa parks is also one of the greatest you know humanitarians in the world who changed the way that we think about a lot of things so and she is rightly lionized for that so i i really feel like bringing up the marxism in blm is a bit of an attempt to grapple on to 1950s government propaganda related specifically to the red hold on hold on if people tell me they're trained marxists like i'm going to believe what they tell me i didn't make up that quote right sure sure but and i don't have a problem believing that some people who work with no the founders not some people like even if they're the founders that yeah a guy who walked along a blm rally or something like yeah come on okay so here's the thing and i this is probably because you haven't talked to a lot of marxists um marxists like when you talk to them you know it's a freaking marxist really fast because they got sticks up their butts and they talk about stuff like dialectical materialism like you know if you understand like and you run in these circles on the far left you would know that blm is not a marxist organization it's not malice like the black panthers were the original black panthers and you know again black panthers were explicitly a malice organization they were also a really effective great organization you know so um the idea that blm might be marxist i don't think even if it were true it wouldn't necessarily be a slight against them but even if it were a slight against them like they it's not a marxist organization okay okay as a final maybe a rebuttal i agree with you that technically them being marxist or their founders being marxist does not invalidate their entire case i'm looking at this as a political scientist and i'm looking at messaging and marketing and if your goal was to convince everyone in the country but it doesn't have anything to do with marxism i wouldn't bring up the marxism but that's just me can i hear something as a political scientist i'd like to hear some statistical evidence from you or some say that proves that they're not that blm is not doing a good job of getting this out because from everything we've said in this debate it seems like they're doing an absolutely phenomenal job of getting their message across i am making political change i actually think the media does a lot of the work for them and you were correct in in pointing that out i i think myself as as one example obviously i'm not the norm but i'm one example of a person who is actually black who would agree with them if i was convinced they were telling the truth but because of the combination of the marxism and the riots and the lying and using makia Bryant as another slain victim while she was guilty i'm turned off and i'm sure there are more black people that don't agree with the core of what you're trying to achieve but they're gonna log out and i'm sure there are a lot of white people who would agree to the exact same things but are like you know what i want to support them but if i keep finding out that the cop shot the guy with the knife trying to kill the girl like there is going to be a point where people are going to log out and you see the numbers going down into us i agree with you it's still a high number so maybe in like a relative sense they are successful but maybe in a potential sense they lost a lot of ground they could have gained that's always hard to determine yeah but again you have to understand so this may be just simply because you're not an american and so you know you were not raised in a culture that was built on the extermination of one race and the enslavement of another like the the systems of white supremacy like from the very beginning from america's original sin that is built into our political structure whether the individuals who act within that political structure are racist themselves or not if you are a non-racist cop for instance and you are enforcing a drug law against a black person you are doing racism like because those laws were put in place specifically to target them and to allow the police to attack them to break up their meetings to jail their leaders so we have no we have no disagreement on any of these laws if you could point to me a law that is racist i am not gonna object like like i'm gonna agree with you as a libertarian if you can find me a racist law i'm for taking it down and someone like Shapiro even though you think he's bad faith even though you might think he's a racist believe me it's very hard for him if it's in written in law and it's racist and you can prove it it's going to be very hard for him to tell his audience no people nothing going on if you can apply that pressure you're gonna gain ground maybe i'm too idealistic you could be correct i'm just trying to look at the most effective way of presenting solutions yeah absolutely but i will point out we still haven't seen i'm getting anecdotal stuff from you and the most that you've done so far is you've appealed to supposedly support for BLM coming down well supposedly they did they researched it it's not like someone supposed it only right well yeah but again i'm i'm giving you the study you're not giving me the percentages you know i'm just taking it i'm taking you at your word that this is something that's happened i think we both saw those news uh we both saw the news about it right i don't watch the news specifically i avoid the news i would assume that you would have heard about the national polls on BLM like i'm sorry there's lots of yeah there's lots of and i believe that it did i just again support for a specific policy is going to go up and down and up and down throughout as that i mean that's just the political process a great example you know might be gay marriage you know uh just back when i was in college it was freaking outlawed and most of the country was against it and then you know through the obama years obama pretended because he's got no yeah obama just basically he is much more self-interested than a lot of people think um but you know he pretended like he had serious spiritual issues with gay marriage until it was politically convenient i think the only person that took longer to turn around on gay marriage was hillary clinton and again because she looked at the polls but the polls changed and once they changed the whole country flipped and by the time donald trump got into office he couldn't roll back the clock even on gay marriage um and the the thing is is that that same process is happening with BLM that same process is happening with you know trans liberation any kind of civil rights will go through periods where the popularity goes up and down with regard to the news cycle and the events and what happens it's just you know that that's that's just politics as is so i think you might be looking at a more isolated data point but i think the further we go the more um black lives matters position is going to uh make sense in much the same way that i can talk about the um the the the black panthers again literal Maoist organization original black panthers by the way the new one's a very racist um but the original black panthers i can talk about them in a positive light whereas if i talked about the black panthers in a positive light when the black panthers were doing their stuff i would be in danger of losing my job and all of my friends with the house of unamerican activities committee and you know the freaking fbi killed fred hampton in his bed and by the way said you know the n words dead afterwards so the just like we saw the radical position of the black panthers in the 60s suddenly become much closer to the acceptable mainstream position now in you know 2020 uh 2021 um uh we're going to see as time continues black lives matters position is going to move closer and closer to the political center the vibe i'm getting from you is uh the the ends justify the means is that correct no no i'm not saying that means i'm saying so like if something bad happens along the road to a better world that bad thing still happened but if we're judging a movement an entire movement success and ability what we need to look at is all of the data as far as you know the overall trend versus focusing too much on any one data point we don't want to miss the forest for the trees okay so hold on so if i could give you a poll that says the support for BLM has gone down to five percent of the population it's not true but if i were to present you with such a poll would you then agree with me i would say i don't know if i'd agree with you overall but what i would say was if that poll was representative and if we were able to replicate that poll several times it seemed to actually be representative of where i would say there would there was a serious public relations problem going on there that was that needed fixing most likely okay because yeah because if that was that number would only matter in the sense of are they being successful but it wouldn't change anything about how i think they acted right but the debates are they yeah but the debate is do they do more harm than good um i suppose yeah so but i think there is something more than just the polls that if your organization that is becoming more influential every year we're going to assume right having such a poor basis like having lied so much in the first couple of years about the first big cases again i don't think they lied yeah but okay i'm presenting you this vision i think that's going to bite them in the in the in the future because you saw how it bit them in the ass with the makia brian case because they were like stuck in the corner because either they were going to say the cop handled right and then maybe right wingers would have said oh but hold on michael brown tried to take his cop so you're saying the michael brown killing was all right so they felt trapped they were like we've been lying so much we might as well lie now and say he just shot another innocent black girl so now like they're they're stuck in this in this hole but even even if it's i mean again i would have to look at their i would have to look at their response to that and if there has been a follow-up they put it on the website they put the makia brian case on the website yeah this thing i'm not familiar with makia brian case that's the one with the knife yes he was shot yeah i remember vaguely hearing about it but like i didn't like go in i would need to study this in depth and study their reaction to give you an informed response to whether they were in the right or wrong so my theory is uh if you lie in the beginning even if you think the ends justify the means or even if you think you're doing more you you're you're implying a lie hang on hang on you're implying a lie so even if let's say for instance that we do you're lying you're just wrong you're not as well uh do you guys yeah brunton and uh you're not as if you feel that the time has been well balanced in terms of how much you've gotten to feel like that do you you guys feel good about that i i really kind of say i want to make sure you guys i'm fine but you're not as if you if you want to if i'm interrupting you too much if you want to say something go how many hours time do we have left so we've got just a few minutes before we go into the q and a so now is actually like a pretty good time where drawing together the threads from this discussion is good as well okay so maybe i could do like a final thing and then is that okay let's see yeah that's fine with me if you do a 51 and then we can do the same for brent yeah so uh let's just pick it off where i left off so this is my this is my analysis if an organization so it starts out by not telling the truth about some major cases in the beginning of their rise and their influence it's going to box them into a corner and it's going to come a point where they need to switch it up they need to either say we're done with riots and every new case is going to be totally legit and they take some accountability or they keep on lying and i'm afraid that's what's going to happen to BLM that even a couple of good things they brought across are going to be drowned out but all the times they have to they feel the need that they have to lie about good policemen so i just think they poison themselves in the long run they are somewhat effective i can't agree with you partly on that i just think their potential is way bigger because i think way more people agree with the core of their grievances and they don't help themselves by amplifying wrong cases yeah and what i'll say is um having watched and been involved to a to a small extent with BLM you know from the very beginning like i was there at the million hoodies march after trevon martin was murdered i was there in the street with occupy wall street i was there in solidarity with them uh at the very first black lives matter march ever in new york city which was one of the biggest marches they'd had since like n 17 um and watching the way the culture responded to them and the reaction to um all of this awful stuff coming out about the police in general um with and to be very clear the police are incredibly violent and kill a lot of white people as well for similarly bad reasons not at the same rate but but it's there um having watched this and also you know having watched activists um you know continue to mainstream these issues uh and being educated reasonably educated on um the overall problems of uh that the black community faces specifically because of their race both political problems social problems and economic problems um you know part of the reason i was able to tell you about what john ehrlichman did um part you know about what the nixon white house did to them part of the reason why i was able to make the connection between the lead paint the between red lining and and lead paint and freddy gray to the time that freddy gray was killed by those police officers uh in the back of that van during the rough ride that is in a lot of ways most likely i can't draw a exact line but that's in a lot of ways because of black lives matter because they've been able to draw time as you're you're not aside if you are you will i'll i'll i'll wrap it up so so the the point is is that we are at a crossroads here where we are finally making some serious progress probably the most progress we've seen since um the civil rights act of 1964 uh 1968 um but we need to keep moving and i think black lives matter as an organization is going to continue to be a major linchpin in this particular form of the civil rights struggle thank you thank you very much gentlemen our guests are linked in the description folks so if you want to hear more or read more you certainly can by clicking on those links and also folks if you didn't know this is a 12 hour live stream we have two more debates to go after this one and this one we're just getting into the q and a so we have plenty of juicy questions coming in that we're excited to ask the speakers but do want to let you know we'll be here i in particular will be here all day so i hope you peek in throughout the day if you have to do errands or whatever else it is don't worry we'll still be here and you can always tune back in throughout the day so thanks so much for your first question this one coming in from logical oh that's not it to oh you know what one let me just get this organized i'm realizing that it updates the thumbnail in the creator studio so it makes it harder for me to see where to start thank you very much if you your question this one coming in from hake of the hake report thank you very much says brianna taylor was not shot sleeping in her bed police knocked and announced when they should not have no that's a lie they did not knock on an ass it was a no knock raid it's one of the major reasons why no knock raids are currently like being repealed throughout the country um she was it was specifically a no knock raid gosh and this one coming in from madhouse nco says not even all black people support vlm that should tell everybody something stop resisting arrest why would all any group of people think with a single mind like no nobody does that there's always going to be a disagreement with regard to as much as from what should we have for dinner to what this political organization is just because not all black people support it doesn't mean they're not overall supported by the black community gotcha and thank you very much for your question coming in from hake of the hake report says zero evidence that derrick chauvin was quote-unquote racist blm is yeah okay again this i think he's just playing with the definition of racism here and whether he the job of the court was not to find out whether he was racist or not it was to find out if he was a murderer and he absolutely was a murderer and i think you know to tell you the truth um that particular murder race played into such a great degree that i think they probably could not have won that case had the perception that he acted unfairly towards uh uh george floyd not been there so i think in a way the murder conviction while it wasn't officially a your racist it was your a murderer and also yeah you're probably a racist murderer gotcha and thank you very much for this one from hake says it was a no-knock raid but they did knock and announce and that's why the neighbor yelled at them yeah okay again even if they did knock and announce the people were sleeping at the time they didn't give adequate um knowledge on it and even if we do say that they're not lying which by the way i think they're probably just lying about that um be because again even if the neighbor is saying they had heard something or yelled at them to be quiet eyewitnesses don't usually remember events exactly how they happened it's it's one of the least reliable things that we can have they busted into a woman's uh house in like the middle of the night and shot her dead while she was in her bed like that's completely unacceptable on every level whether they uh happened to hey please bang or if it was just bang either way like that's not how one of those situations should ever be okay but hold up hold up if they knocked and they told him police and he shot at them do you still blame them for shooting at him and then accidentally hitting her are you still gonna call them killers like come on i well killers yes they literally did kill someone so yes if you kill someone you are a killer regardless of the reasons beyond it but like if they said police and he woke up and shot at them what then i would say they were still more in the wrong than he was wow yeah and here here's why let me explain so here's why if you are a law enforcement organization with people who are trained to trained to arrest people and to kill people and you've got your officers there with their body armor and they are all backed up it is on you to take extra precautions to make sure that something like that doesn't happen we should always see officers should be in more danger than in the people that they are uh supposedly protecting because again that's sort of the job there we can't afford to have our police officers so you think so you think it's aggression if the police shoot back i don't want to try to arrest again i don't care i don't really care about aggression in this instance that's not the problem the problem is yeah the problem is they went to force far too quickly and they also um did not adequately announce themselves so even if they knocked on the door imagine you're sleeping in bed and you hear a big heavy knock at the door and a loud man yelling you're getting up you're groggy you don't know you probably can't hear that well what was that was i dreaming it oh no there's someone coming in my door bang bang bang okay yeah hold on we don't have a question you're conveniently leaving you're conveniently leaving i want to do your not as i promise i'll give you a chance to you guys for this is a related question on the same topic hake said rihanna's body was in the hallway not the bed whatever you know like i said whether she was shot in the hallway or shot in the bed it doesn't matter again these are yes it does no it doesn't because these are people who created the narrative that the cops were just shooting at an empty at a bed where a woman was sleeping because they wanted to kill her whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa hang on hang on i didn't say anything about them wanting to kill her i didn't say anything at all about them wanting to kill her fine fine um i i again i think what happened there was you had a bunch of people who were gung ho and thought they were soldiers and there's a big thing to go on like really what you need to look up like is this guy who has been training police officers all over the country who claims he's an expert in killology and is literally trains police officers to go for their guns first like not exactly like that but like okay but but dude listen listen you're leaving out the context that this guy is a violent drug dealer if you know he's not a violent drug dealer her ex-boyfriend was a drug dealer and also keep in mind what are you saying you're talking about again a violent drug dealer jeez why would drugs get violent oh right the war on drugs started by nixon for racist reasons like come on it's it is talking about no we're talking about if you're a drug dealer and you hear people but the guy was no the boyfriend you know what's coming like the guy yeah but hang on the guy was not a drug dealer okay first off he was not it was her ex-boyfriend who was a drug dealer um was the address yes and you know what if you're sitting there in bed with your uh with your new girlfriend you know that her ex-boyfriend was a drug dealer and probably was violent and suddenly there's yelling at your door and the door gets knocked in your you may start shooting because hey maybe it's that guy maybe it's him coming back for revenge or whatever we do have one from jesse yes they say briana her boyfriend and her boyfriend were awake the cops fired at them after her boyfriend reacted in self-defense actual justice warrior has the complete story the actual justice warriors and not see screwing let's not do what a great argument what a great argument no you know the thing is is that again like these people are liars and and that's the point like they'll they'll give you a specifically politically motivated story an actual justice warrior is a propagandist he's going to lie to you he's not here to defend himself so it's very seriously let's not talk about him when he's not here to defend himself fair enough the this one coming in from do appreciate your question rising power says the debate was over after brenton's intro which was well composed and backed up by historical and statistical evidence future debaters raise the bar to brenton well you got a fan out there brenton and you know i have to give i want to say thank you huge thank you we've got more questions don't worry but want to say huge thank you to our guests we do appreciate the speakers and want to remind you i know it's a fiery topic please do attack the arguments folks instead of the person that means a lot and then medusa nco says all this cop hate go live where there aren't any um okay so i did that actually i lived both where there were a bunch of cops like and where there were not a bunch of cops when i lived in manhattan new york city full of cops the cops were the primary threat to life and limb not not for me as much but still dealing with the nypd oftentimes is like dealing with a rabid dog like you really don't know what they're going to do and it gets even worse for people who are in minorities and particularly when i was there at the height of stop and frisk and i lived where there were no cops on the appellation trail because there's no cops freaking 40 miles out into the woods and i was safer there than i've ever been at any other point in my life and again part of the reason is is cops it's very important for people to remember everybody in the united states are really afraid of terrorists but the fact of the matter is you are more likely to be shot and killed by a cop than by a terrorist you're actually yeah well terrorists you're more likely to be killed by your own furniture but the point is is that the police force is a genuine threat to the health and safety of the american citizen not all of us not all the time not all of them but yeah cider and port says to stay here they say we don't pick the people that blm use you do as soon as you demonize or villainize a black person then blm has their back you chose the people that blm uses not us props to brenton yeah i i don't think it's your nas yeah like i don't you want to respond you're not well i like the what does he mean i'm choosing the cases like like yeah he's using you as a stand-in for the right wing media for for reactionary me like i don't think you individually chose those cases but you know uh it's a good point that every time like a black person is killed by the police there's that we don't need no fence friends but i was just gonna say we don't add too much on to it because i i still want to give you a chance to respond to this if you want do you get well i i actually think i actually think i'm pretty nuanced and i've admitted to a couple of cases where i think the evidence is quite clear and i don't feel i need to argue with them but yeah i'm just going to be critical of every organization especially if they're if they're saying that they're representing black people and i am black so yeah i think i can say something about it got you i am thank you very much i think everyone could say something about it actually but thanks for your question yeah this comes in from medusa and ceo no rising power nope cider and port had the next one said the moment you say quote they were no angel unquote it doesn't matter what the person has done they don't deserve to be killed in police uh killed by police why is that controversial you're not us yeah so i really hate this framing where people say he did x he didn't deserve to die like if you steal one piece of candy but then you knock a cop in his face and try to steal his his his gun and you're gonna get shot of course it wasn't the candy that made you deserve to die you were just being stupid and took the risk of dying after stealing candy so you're stupid so like i hate that framing no one says they deserve it because of the crime they commit they deserve it they don't deserve it they it happened to them because they took an incredibly crazy risk after going against the law so and you don't think because they're dead and the cop is the only one there that they just lying about them doing the incredibly crazy thing i mean again i a great example that occupy the cecily mcmillan trial cecily was in the park when the police officers were clearing it uh an officer by the way who's since been let go um like reached around and grabbed her breast and not knowing who it was she went back she elbowed him in the eye oops police officer suddenly she gets a crap kicked out of her wakes up handcuffed to a bed facing seven years in prison for assaulting a police officer um similarly what happened with me again i was not resisting in any way yeah but they still said it because that they're not trying each other to do it okay so i'll just tease you buddy i'm i'm all right so next up this is coming in from the Hague report says blm lies to people who don't know better encouraging hatred and presume people guilty despite exoneration blm doesn't value their own lives um i don't know how much he beats me again i don't really see how one relates to the other like even if you're going to say that they're lying and i don't think they're lying um i think that's you guys believing they're lying because you believe the right wing media spin on it um but even if they were lying the problem is still there it's still real statistically objectively brent brent do you believe in left wing propaganda oh yeah absolutely okay also around these cases yeah absolutely okay yeah like like the thing is is that the left wing media machine there isn't nearly the power behind it than the right like you can't make a career being an anarchist or a communist speaker for the most part like there's occasional ones like noam chomsky um but like for the most part socialists are completely shut out of the conversation from the left but in particularly in the united states it may be different in the netherlands but like definitely yeah in the united states because of macartheism because of these purges of the left that went on um you know during the 1950s and 1960s the radical left voices are not represented for the most part and they're certainly not represented with money power or prestige you can make a ton of money being a radical right wing voice in america and you know once again tucker carlson is the number one most watched person in all of cable news um the the right wing media machine is so much more powerful than the left wing one it's it's not even david versus goliath it's goliath versus a freaking cockroach okay would you admit that would you admit that left wing organizations are lighting we okay all news organizations liar spin okay got you thank you and but and that would include left wing ones thank you very much hake says murders increase after blm gets credence from the government focus in effect baby okay so first off correlation is not causation you would have to then demonstrate that it was because of that and secondly no murders have not increased we've been seeing a general downtrend in um both um murders and overall violent crime and overall crime for years and years we the only times you can say that murders might have gotten more likely because of blm is situations like um freaking kyle rittenhouse um where people he was defending himself man he was not he's a murderer but anyway we we can talk we can talk about that later but the point being is is that yeah a couple maybe like the only things that you can chalk up to blm the only kinds of murders you could chalk up to blm are like when people attack marches and drive trucks through there or if someone shoots back at one of those people or something you know that that kind of killing could be chalked up to them but simply chalking up random violence it makes no sense and you know is very bad face next up this one from hake says capital protest became the language of the unheard um no so again the capital protest no no because the capital protest was not really a riot in the strictest sense that was planned specifically by donald trump and q anon they knew exactly what they were going to do they were attempting a coup they're just bad at it um and the fact of the matter is is that you might i know they feel like they're unheard so you could maybe kind of talk about that but also like you know if you look at the socioeconomic status of a lot of the people involved in uh the january six insurrection you find a lot of them are like they're one of the women she was like a super rich um real estate agent who was flying all over the country you know q anon that that's a cult it is it is a it is a cult and it was a cult joined with fascists hate strikes again he says black mothers actually beg for more police presence in their own communities according to heather mcdonald okay i don't know who heather mcdonald is so i i don't care i can look that but it does it does tie into the point that i made that innocent black people need police the most that's just not true like i can tell you from having watched how police treated innocent black people in new york during the from the height of stop and frisk it's just not the case like cops are dangerous i cannot stress that enough and they are specifically dangerous to you if you are a black man this one coming in from do appreciate your question pancake of destiny like destiny steven now they say blm wants special treatment for black people from police slash workplaces slash colleges it is racist and it assumes that black people are inferior what do you think about that brent so in it in no way assumes that black people are in inferior it assumes rightly that black people are unfairly targeted by the system for malicious reasons which again we have the proof richard nixon war on drugs mass incarceration that these are all facts um now as far as so they're not assuming that black people that doesn't mean that black people would be inherently inferior in any way um what was the first part of that again because i did want to respond to it but um i got caught up on that was the first part they had said that bill on special treatment for black people from police and workplaces and colleges yeah that was it so special treatment um okay this is akin to saying i have a broken arm so i need to get into the hospital before the person who has a black eye and you say oh that's special treatment special treatment for someone is only a problem when it is special treatment that is out of the bounds of reality so if i go to the front of the line for illogical reasons then that is a biased treatment of me but it is very logical that we should deal with this problem with the black community because they're being shot and killed and imprisoned at so much of a higher rate to the point where seven uh seven black innocent black men will be put in prison to every one innocent white man put in prison that's that's completely wrong must move on this one coming in from jesse says blm is winning so they are clearly correct quote unquote they said this might makes right mentality from brenton is disturbing i have had nothing to do with might makes right we were talking about were they an effective organization and as was saying that they were not effective and i would say well they seem to be very effective but you would you were would you are saying the ends justify the means i fell i definitely was not no i don't believe the ends just if i'm a buddhist dude i don't believe the ends justify the means this one coming in from hake says police let's say i think i had this one oh yeah we did read that one and then they but they did say this one calling kapper nick falsely smeared cops of getting away with murder meanwhile 20 percent of murders solved in chicago and then they said misleading kids is pure evil um again cops have been getting away with murder for a really long time uh we'll go back to freddy gray all of the officers involved in that were acquitted um caught the cop who killed eric garner got away with murder the in fact i would say the only time so far that a cop has not gotten away with murder when it came to the high-profile killing of the black man that i can think of is most recently with show and that was just because it was so overwhelming nobody could deny it except your eyes denied it um so i would say overall it there we do not have that going on and these are not lies being told to children you want to live in a bubble you want to live in a world where these things don't happen and i sympathize with that but the fact is this is reality it's happening gotcha and this one coming in from hake says 13 of the population but 40 of cop killers according to heather mcdonald yeah okay so first off that oh and you know by the way you know what the biggest cop killers on the on the in the planet is sovereign citizens who are mostly white like so it's interesting that you just went with this 40 percent you're quoting some version of 1350 there um the the fact of the matter is is that this is just bad statistics i can say this statistical fact that the average american has one breast and one testicle because you got 50 women two breasts no testicles 50 men no breasts two testicles average them together the average american has one breast and one testicles there are liars there are damn liars and their statisticians um and you know you're listening to a damn liar who is misusing statistics you got it in this one coming in from hake says the NAACP was going to use a different girl but swapped in rosa parks because the other girl was pregnant out of wedlock and so they're saying that it was a setup i mean it was a setup in the sense that yeah like rosa parks was not just some old lady who went in there and was like oh i'm just so tired i have no this was a particular political action that she took with the intent of of showing that the system was cruel and unfair to black people and she did a phenomenal job of it um yeah so yes it was a setup but it was a setup for good reason and it had a good effect because again think about all of the tired old ladies who actually did just want to sit down that were treated like crap i think about that hake strikes again on the same topic says rosa parks was part of a pr setup not some spontaneous brave woman yeah i know i just said that that's why i said she was a trained communist but really in fact the matter is yeah but the fact yeah rosa parks was a marxist yes but the fact is is that again um and we said this in the debate she was still doing a good thing because that law the forcing black people to sit at the back of the bus was cruel and it was an example of treating them as inferior second-class citizens so she was absolutely right to do it that's how political change happens a lot of the time people think that stuff happens spontaneously it doesn't like it happens like that on the right on the left long nice youtube and says why does this country get mad at blm for one percent of 99 of protests turning into riots but january six happens and mum's the word i think they're saying nobody does anything or nobody talks about it they are must be a they say they are protected by the gop what do you think of them apples your nausea well i think a lot of them were arrested so they're getting their case in court right so i'm sure there are people i'm sure there are people in the gop who don't want to criticize them too hard for electoral purposes but like the law is taking care of these people like they're not being exempt from punishment right that's not what i understood god so some of them have been arrested and it may have been the trying to take over the country like literally attempting a coup is the line that white privilege begins to break down at but we really won't know until like we actually see the trials and see the outcomes um yeah i will agree with you um there there was more of a response to this but i'll tell you what if that had been a left wing attempt to take over congress like holy crap there would have been a lot more dead than just one like four people and only one person actually killed by uh the police um you know the the the fact is is that we just had a violent cult joined with a bunch of fascists and try to take over the country for a um you know sundowning uh old fascists with holes in his brain so to try to keep him in as the president and it i would say the level of kit gloves that they're handling doesn't them with does not even come close to the threat that they posed at that time you're not since the question was originally for you i'll give you the last quick and pithy word and then we got to go to the next one on the january sixth thing you mean yeah oh i guess it was to him i thought that was to me yeah i answered already i said like yeah some people in the gop are not criticizing them but i think like law enforcement did take care of them and they're not going to get away with it most likely how it looks right now but yeah we have to wait for it next up i don't have they're being uh punished yeah you got it and hey says i think this is for you bren they say blm spreads misplaced suspicion and hate i mean again this is the standard kind of red baiting the idea that you that an organization is secretly making up bad stuff about america specifically to cause problems within america as a subversive thing these problems that they are bringing to light are objectively real that knee on george floyd's neck that was objectively real that happened um the the chokehold that killed erik garner the um uh the rough ride that killed that killed gray these are real problems whether you want to face them or not i am not a snowflake like you are and i'm not going to pretend like the world is a is nicer than it actually is i'm going to pay attention to these serious problems and that's the only thing that anyone of any amount of intellectual uh rigor or uh you know personal um values can do so yeah and get stanfield thanks for your questions as thank you for what you do james thank you get appreciate your support says anytime i can chat live i'll donate human beings need conversations to settle different ways of looking at the world thanks so much get that seriously means a lot and it's true we're not always here to solve the problem but maybe we can at least better understand the problem so thanks for your question haig says oh we got i think i read that one earlier because i was reading some of them out of the order yeah i hope haig no seriously i i yeah he's you know haig from i don't know if you ever watch i know brenton you're a big fan of jessie lee peterson so haig is like the haig report who partners with jessie on the but anyway so yeah red amazing yes but yes we thank you for your question hainrich says james is this is for support great job but i'll give a sticker for your best insults of tom's chair thank you for your support i will gladly insult tom's chair gets dadfield says also thank you very much says regardless of the few conflicts which have transpired within the past few years would you agree you're not that there does exist some racism oh yeah definitely i mean it exists in the netherlands i'm sure it exists in the us uh i just don't think the way blm approached it is the right way so that's why i'm i'm taking that approach as a political scientist so yeah there's definitely racism but i just feel there's more effective ways of battling it you got it thank you very much let's say let's say more moral ways because it's not all only about effectiveness just gotcha and truthfulness bicy road says brent would black lives be served better teaching how to fight in court rather than the police so here's the thing um that is also happening you know you've got groups like the lawyers guild for instance they tend to handle cases like that black lives matter does not just do the media thing like they're they also there's a lot that goes into trial support and there are other organizations that are more directly focused on that as well but yes i would agree that overall when it comes to dealing with police officers you know you don't want to meet them with any kind of force no matter how right you are because you will always lose um you know i learned that at a very young age you know so yes they need to be battled in court but even part of court is also the court of public opinion and that can actually have a direct impact on how these cases turn out and i think that the fact that public opinion was so against chauvin is a big reason as to why chauvin was eventually convicted you know um similarly with uh cecily mcmillan when she was convicted of her wayward elbow she only got 90 days instead of seven years it was because of the media approach to the trial the people in occupy made sure that people knew about it knew what was happening and there was an unprecedented letter writing campaign uh and so many people sent in letters in support of cecily that the prosecutor did not feel comfortable recommending what they wanted which was seven years so they gave her 90 days gotcha and want to remind you moderators thanks so much for all you do but do want to remind you moderators we ask you to refrain from debating the issues i know that's a new big step that we've made as we want to strive for even more neutrality but do appreciate that and then thanks for your question burt says thanks brent for having a goodwill conversation debate towards the end oh no it calmed down a bit towards the end i would like to think it was goodwill the whole time and i will say the last time i argued this it was with um t-jump and i think yinaz has been i like t-jump but i think yinaz has been very respectful here for the most for the most part and while you know tempers did flare at a time i feel like i feel like we got some good stuff done juicy and reverend elation said or revelation i see what you're doing there founder patricia coolers said that quote spirituality is at the center unquote of the movement do her occult black magic practices help or hurt the movement i don't know who this person is i can't say she's one of the founders right patrice and she what is she like a pagan or something i mean spirituality that maybe do you like the do she like the earth crystals like you like brenton and she i don't do the earth or do i'm a buddhist oh no i don't do crystals okay i know it looks like i'm the kind of guy who would do crystals no i'd chant to a gohan zone i just like to tease you i'm so sorry anybody out there likes crystals i've i just snake was right thanks for your question says if there are poor people you can reasonably expect crimes if police are getting shot at not reasonable to fire back according to brenton i would say it depends on how and when and why you're getting shot at if there's a warning shot you probably should not be firing back again i think what we need to do in this country is realize that because we imbue cops with so much power we must also hold cops to a higher standard um and i i think it is if it comes down to cops accidentally shooting a person or a cop not taking action and getting shot we should we should more cleave to the latter because again that's sort of what happens when you sign up to be a warrior you are there to protect people and you know if if a cop has to die to protect the public they should be as a warrior ready to make that sacrifice um and so i think again they need to be held to a higher standard that's the only reason you can ever give someone power is if you hold them to a higher standard as a result of that gotcha and thanks very much for this question coming in from hey who says cops are more likely to die at the hands of the public compared to the odds of a random black person dying at the hands of police i mean i don't know the actual statistics on that i would have to look into it but i again i would rather have cops being more likely to die at the hands of the public than to have the public being more likely to die at the hands of cops well i i really think i really think you're going to have trouble finding any good cops if this is the position if the position is even if people or criminals are shooting at you you might still not be able to pull out your gun you're going to find exactly no one willing to take that job well then there's a lot of cowardly people out there no it's not god yeah no no it absolutely is come on no it absolutely is carolist look if you're a freaking warrior you need to be prepared to put down your to put to put down your life hold on they're not soldiers they're treated yeah but they're treated as soldiers and they do you're treating them as soldiers no i'm not the the freaking david whatever his name is who wrote the killology is the guy treating them as soldiers and telling them they're soldiers you can't have your cake and eat it too it's a famous quote of i and rand so you have to choose because if they're soldiers they're going to kill so you can't complain about the killing if they're soldiers you can't be like you notice i never you i never use dude i never used the phrase soldier i used warrior and i chose that specifically because um what i want to get technical with me now soldier and warrior like yeah look the the fact of the matter is is that the state is there to deploy violence and the threat of violence against threats to property and that is what the police department is they deploy violence and the threat of violence if you are someone whose job it is to deploy violence and the threat of violence you are a warrior you are not necessarily a soldier in an army but you're still a warrior but you want to make them into martyrs you think they i know what i want to make more risk even if they're being shot at by criminals they should still think more about the criminal than about their own life they should think more about the public than about their own life because this is the thing you don't once again they are not interacting necessarily with criminals they're interacting with people that they think might be criminals but these people are actually members of the public so what we need to do is make sure that the people that they are interacting with are more protected on average than the people with the guns okay but the specific context of someone shooting straight at them well outside of straight out this could just be a citizen i'm gonna give brent the last word it was just a citizen yeah it was just a citizen and yes i would agree in general don't shoot at cops you know but like the point is is that again we yeah look is more dangerous to be a garbage man than to be a police officer it is more dangerous to be a cab driver than to be a police officer i think that we cannot afford to have cowardly police officers okay i'm gonna i'm gonna police officers we must we must move the next one i know that you've got another round in the chamber ready to fire out your nas i appreciate no i have to respond to the danger argument it's it's not a correct argument because the danger is of a different sort if you're working like as a garbage disposal guy and you can get your head stuck in the machine and some people die of that every year that's something you know is a danger if you're a cop walking around in a bad neighborhood you can get shot any second that is the danger of a different nature than the danger for a guy throwing in the garbage who shouldn't put his head into the machine right yeah okay so here's what's happening you're blaming the garbage we must go to the next one and you're just as likely if and if not more likely to be to get killed as a as a cab driver every fare could come into your your cab and kill you should cab drivers get a license to kill no next they should be able to defend themselves thank you guys thank you guys sorry but we have so many questions i just want to get through these and i also don't respect you guys this time i know you guys are busy cab drivers don't have qualified immunity this one coming in from long i agree with you on that long night's youtube and says ronald green was tortured by 12 and he didn't deserve any of that you're not there are thousands of cases of these as a black man from this country blm is completely necessary and i can speak for the majority okay again if there are thousands of cases and the best you can provide me is michael brown you're doing something wrong you're just with another one one second like michael brown no i mean i'm not going against this case like i haven't studied this case but i'm not going against it if it's true what this guy says please run with this story because this is a real good one and i don't see the lies as yet but why i'm not the ones with the lies like i don't get it like if they're all around pick the good ones and i won't have a complaint if it's so clear see again i don't believe you when you say that um like i believe you're sincere but again also you know you say you watch a lot of young turks or whatever but really keep in mind all of the big black lives matter cases that are going to get um elevated by the right wing media are ones that the right wing media knows they can find and poke holes and make it look like crap you know um so your what you are seeing is curated in a way and then also your brain then is selecting them more often anyway because what is that um self-serving bias that we all have so you know you may just not pick up on stuff that doesn't enforce you otherwise and that that's all of us but you know we should be aware of it the question is originally for you you're not so i'll give you this uh last word and then we get over the next one well like of course he didn't deserve it if what is being said is true and i wouldn't go against it and it's just an evidence that there are good cases to attach on to and that's my advice and if i think if BLM would do that more than they are right now they would be a better organization like more moral more truthful they wouldn't be boxed in and they shouldn't be able to they shouldn't have to lie about makia bryant because they were truthful from the get go gosh and citer and port says brenton heather mcdonald is someone who did a prigger you video and unironically brought up 1350 as her primary argument oh my god okay i'm glad that yeah she's worthless to listen to long nights youtube says the commission for january 6 was spiked by the gop though yeah they definitely was spiked by the gop and you'll notice a lot of people this is to challenge your nose i'm sorry but listen i already said i agreed that there are people in the gop who have electoral reasons not to go all out against january 6 people i'm saying that as long as how i understand it people are being prosecuted and are being jailed for what happened so to me at least that part seems legit got you on sleepy dances BLM also spread covid during their protesting in the pandemic i mean that was something that i was actually really concerned about which is one of the reasons why i didn't attend any protests over the summer because my wife is high risk and i wasn't going to risk that i don't know how serious the covid spread from the protests was because it was outside and most of the protesters were masked but you know i that's definitely a trade-off because again you've got one epidemic that is covid and then you have the epidemic of you know police brutality police murders and the ongoing you know criminalization of the black community for for-profit prisons so cost-benefit analysis i don't like the idea that anybody should be in the street spreading covid but i can see why someone might feel that they needed to take that risk to deal with a much bigger problem got you there's juicy one from hake from the hake report says how is it lying with statistics to acknowledge that black americans are much more likely to perhaps to to be perpetrators against police and people in general yeah so again it's lying with statistics because it removes it from the context and also it's not people in general so when you talk about like the 1350 or the other race-related statistics what's happened is is that you have prevented a fact you've presented a fact but you presented a fact with absolutely no context and as a result people will draw an incorrect conclusion and inference from it so you are essentially using the truth to tell lies in much the same way that if i said yeah average american has one breast and one testicle i would be using the truth to tell an obvious lie want to remind you folks oh yeah it's coming this coming wednesday as you see at the bottom right of your screen jf will be taking on lance from the serfs on capitalism versus socialism you don't want to miss that one folks so do hit that subscribe button if you haven't already so you can see that juicy debate that's going down this coming wednesday and we also have two more debates today you guys this is the most epic 12 hour debate stream of your lives and we want to say thank you so much to brenton and to your nars for helping make it possible thank you guys so much and folks they're linked in the description so if you want to hear more you can hear more from these guys but thank you brent brenton and your nars it's been a true pleasure i'm going to be back thanks a lot absolutely i'm going to be back in just a moment folks as we will be in the intermission namely we have the next debate coming up in about a half hour and so i will be back in just a moment to chat with you in the old live chat let you know about channel updates and upcoming debates and then we'll be starting that next debate coming up in about 30 minutes or so so thanks so much and stick around folks i'll be right back and thanks so much again to our guests it's all the zoom window is all changed up on me here i am you guys i am pumped do you see me over here we have got so much awesome stuff to come you do not want to miss it as we have many upcoming debates so let me just there we go that's a little bit better and you guys i've got to tell you about this this is a little bit more zoomed in than i like but i'm going to fix this and i've got to let you know about several awesome upcoming things you guys we are so thankful that you guys are here want to let you know modern day debate is a neutral channel hosting debates on science religion and politics and you guys we are very serious we want everybody to feel welcome whether they're gay straight black white christian atheist politically left politically right you name it we are thankful that you are here and so pumped to have you let me tell you about some of the upcoming debates i've already told you about this one on the bottom right of your screen right now it's a little bit scrambled bear with me but you see this on the bottom right of your screen that one is going to be juicy and you can also see in the far right of your screen we are pumped that we have a podcast as well as the youtube channel and twitch by the way twitch chat i've been so behind and saying hello to you and so want to say thanks so much to everybody in the old twitch chat i see you there i see cd rank thanks for being here with us in the old twitch chat as well as thanks to toko toko grace toko kraka toko toko krakra thank you for being with us we are pumped to see you there in the old twitch chat and yeah follow us on twitch folks we hope that's a value to you we really do enjoy learning about this platform as it's still somewhat new at least compared to youtube for us but we're glad that it's been useful for people and then scrop gema thanks for being with us as well and lily bug asaurus thanks for being with us you guys i am absolutely pumped about upcoming debates we have want to let you know it is going to be an epic summer so let me show you some of the cool stuff we've got coming up and we are pumped it's going to be a lot of fun so in particular you guys might be like well you know what's weird is that my camera i swear it's like it's it should be that this is the center point oh you know what i know why it is because i'm so zoomed in two seconds we'll get there is that you guys i am pumped as you have maybe not heard about our crowdfund that is currently underway and right now it's been doing really well we're at about 78 percent which is absolutely epic and so we do want to encourage you if you have not already jumped in on the crowdfund that is linked in the description you might be like james what crowdfund are you talking about well have you been living in a cave on mars with your fingers in your ears it's coming up on june 5th so that's about oh yeah it's a week away folks so we really don't have that much more time for the crowdfund if you are like hey you know what this channel has been fun for me i've enjoyed this i want to support what you guys are doing i like your vision of providing a neutral playing ground for this debate and so i want to help the channel want to let you know this crowdfund project is absolutely epic it's going really well and you might be like what james are you know how to you know how to do this crowdfund like how does this you know you know you think you can really do it we have done it we've successfully pulled this off in the past and so we are absolutely pumped as you can see in the bottom right of the screen it's showing in the red circle we had 143 backers who pledged 3100 last time that was when we hosted new york times bestselling author dr michael schermer and inspiring philosophy mike jones in our january debate this year and it was epic you guys so really encourage that that one went really well but you might be like well what is it on well it's on this platform called indiegogo it's just like Kickstarter except the branding is basically pink purple colored and you can just sign in so easily you can use your facebook for example a lot of different options for how you can sign in you if you want you can create an account you don't have to create an account though and you don't even have to use facebook so that is linked in the description but let me grab that for you and then i do i want to say hi to you in the chat as i thank you very much let's see revelations that i wish i could super chat hake during the debate live chat what do you mean super chat hake like you mean put his name in it but let's see hake says did you take modern day debate floyd viscer oh yeah so folks want to let you know if you if you happen to have a question it's way easier for me to see the question in the live chat if you tag me with at modern day debate and then i can more easily kind of see your question and basically you can say um then i can potentially read it if we have enough time i i do want to respect the time of the debaters their time is valuable and so we don't always get to read every single question but we try jc93013 says james say beta mail in jesse lee peterson's voice i was listening to let's see yesterday i was listening to jesse lee peterson and i was listening to the beta mail song i can't get it out of my head he's a beta mail but i uh yes we we do use beta mail i or beta more broadly you can be a beta female it's possible we might call you a beta female too it's we use it more ironically we're not like they're like we're not it's not it's not really that serious but we are glad to see your rev elation says you are full of grace and truth and we appreciate you that's really kind of you i've got a lot of things wrong with me so i appreciate your kind words that makes it means a lot now the next debate is coming up in 27 minutes folks and that is on whether or not there's evidence for intelligent design you don't want to miss it folks but also you might be like well what other debates do you have today oh wait sorry i got distracted let me do this really quick i'm going to throw the old crowdfund link in the description and that way you can hopefully or it's already in the description i'm going to throw it in the old live chat and do want to encourage you folks we've only got six days or so and so this is the time if you want to support the channel that really does help and you might be like ah you know i don't even know if i really like this religion these religion debates well keep this in mind even if you throw in a dollar like i'm very serious when we see more people are backing it that gives me more confidence and motivation to try to use this strategy to get potential speakers in the future such as like Dinesh D'Souza versus Vosh or something like that like we want to have big time debates and we think the crowdfund strategy is definitely a way to get there like we really do believe it this is absolutely we think that this is the way of modern day debate getting to host bigger batter events and so i do want to encourage you folks if you've gotten value from this channel please do throw into the Kickstarter and you can throw in as small of an amount as a cup of coffee really i mean like that that's it and so do want to let you know about that as we are excited about it folks and it's the you could say the bridge or the pathway for us being able to do bigger headline events as a lot of speakers is like their big time and if we want to get more big time speakers like let's say for example Richard Dawkins like we really do want to host Richard Dawkins in the future like maybe against like Dr. Fuzerana on like creation evolution that would be epic wouldn't it and so in order to do that though i mean we actually need the crowdfund so w