We offer you escape. Escape with us now to Istanbul, the nerve center of bulk and intrigue and violence, and the story of a man caught on the fatal web of the most cold-blooded political organization on Earth. As Eric Embler tells it, in his famous tale, Journey into Fear. Monsieur. Monsieur. As if a bar of white-hot metal had been suddenly pressed against my hand. And then it was numb. But I could feel the blood beginning to trickle through my fingers. There wasn't a sound. And as I crouched against the wall, I became dimly aware that the window was open and that someone was moving by it. And then my eyes, becoming used to the darkness, saw that whoever had been at the window had left by it. I reached for the light switch and found it and hurt like the very devil. Is that you, Kopekin? Yes, what is it? I have only this moment come in. Where are you? I'm in my hotel room.  There was a burglar up here. He took pot shots at me as I came in and one of them hit me in the hand. Are you badly hurt? No, but it gave me a nasty shock. Have the police been notified? No, not yet. Good. Leave the matter to me. I will speak to a friend of mine about it. He is connected to the police and with great influence. As soon as I am finished, I shall come over. Well, there's no need for that. Excuse me, my dear fellow. There is ever a need. You must stay in your room until I arrive. Well, I had no intention of going out. Well, if you must come over, Kopekin, please hurry. I want to get some sleep tonight.  Oh, that's nonsense. The man was a thief. Why should anyone wish to kill me? I'm the most harmless man alive. Are you? Remember I told you that I was going to telephone a friend of mine? Yes. We are going to see him at once. Well, I'm jolly. Well, I'm tired. I want to go to bed. Unfortunately, I have official instructions.  Something must be done about it at once. Murder?  I am sorry, my dear fellow. I can understand your feelings. But this friend of mine is Colonel Haki. He is the head of the Turkish secret police. Oh, now look here, Kopekin. What's this all about? I thought you were my company's Turkish representative. Are you talking about secret service and all that rubbish? Please, I cannot tell you anything more. It is to our mutual interest that we go at once to Colonel Haki. You must believe me. All this hysteria of absolutely nothing. My dear fellow, it is most certainly not nothing. Get your overcoat. It's cold out.  Well, now I don't see that at all. I mean, I disturbed a thief at his work. He fired at me and escaped. A thief, unfortunately, no. I have a duty to do, Mr. Graham. It is to protect you. Protect me? From what? You are in the employ of Vessels Cater and Bliss Limited, the English armament manufacturer. Yes. You are, I believe, Mr. Graham, a naval ordnance expert. I'm an engineer and naval ordnance happens to be my subject. Exactly. And your firm has contracted to do some work for my government. Set the new guns and torpedoes to rearm our naval vessels. Well, that's true. It is also true that our government stipulated that the work should be completed before spring. Yes. Exactly. Due to the international situation, we must have the equipment in our dockyards by that time.  Well, naturally, my company would send another man out. Which would take time, Mr. Graham? Unless, of course, there exist sketches, drawings, and all that they need to know about our ships. Oh. No. I mean, I was forbidden to put certain things on paper. Then, if you were to die, it would take a great deal of time for another man to accomplish what you have already done, no? And when spring comes, our navy's strength is still precisely what it is now. Do you know, Mr. Graham, that our enemies will do anything to see that it is so? Anything, Mr. Graham.  Oh. Quite so. I have here, Mr. Graham, a photograph of a man.  All right. Uh, hello. Yes. You are sure? Positive. Have a look, Kopekin. He was at the cabaret you took me to tonight. I remember him at the bar. Yes. He was there. Excellent. Vanat, Romanian. I hired the murderer. We know him well. His price ranges from 50,000 francs upward. His employer is a man named Voroshin, who in turn is hired by his country to eliminate you. Unfortunately, we possess no photograph of him. I begin to understand. Of course you do. Now, we face the problem. You must return to England safely. But how? The train is out of the question. You wouldn't live for an hour. The aeroplane. Unfortunately, the weather here has disrupted service. There is the Cestri Levante selling for Athens tomorrow afternoon. It's a small boat. And we can see that your enemies do not board her. From Athens, you can take the plane to England. Well, I don't know, Colonel. In view of what you've told me, perhaps I should get in touch with the British Embassy here. And what do you expect them to do? Send you home in a cruiser? No, no, my dear Mr. Graham. This is a question of time. Leaving tomorrow afternoon will land you in Athens the day after. That is how it is to be. Well, I seem to have no choice in the matter. I'm happy to see that you are cooperating. Return to your hotel, Mr. Graham. We shall see you safely aboard tomorrow. The next afternoon, Copekin and Colonel Hockey saw me aboard. As a bon voyage gift, they presented me with a bottle of Johnny Walker and a small pistol, both of which I put in my suitcase. Besides myself, there were four other passengers, all of whom Colonel Hockey assured me were harmless. The gangway went down. I thought the ship swayed gently and the journey had begun. My companions were an odd assortment of continental travelers. There were the mafties who occupied the cabin next to mine, a middle-aged trench couple who argued incessantly. Their voices penetrated the thin wooden bulkhead with dismaying ease. These sheets are damp. No, no, it is simply that they are cold. It's not of that sort. You think not, you may sleep as you wish, but do not complain to me about your kidneys. Cold sheets do not harm the kidneys, Sherry. We have paid for our tickets. Then there was a Mr. Kuvetli whom I learned at the dinner table was a dealer in tobacco. A short, heavy man with a smile fixed like that of a ventriloquist doll. I go to England. Trading tobacco is very good. England buys much tobacco from Turkey, you know. With American dollars so expensive and possibility of war, it is good business, Mr. Mati. So, I arrange a good deal of transportation for tobacco companies. What company do you represent? Passar, Istanbul. Passar? I must say these ravioli are exquisite.  He introduced himself over a brandy on the lounge. My name is Halal, Dr. Fritz Halal. I'm a German, a best German. And I am on my way back to my country. Have you been long in Turkey? A few weeks. I came there from Persia. Oil business? No, Mr. Karli. Oh, how interesting. Those were my fellow passengers. At nine o'clock that night, the cutter came out from Kanakali to take off the pilot. And with it came a telegram. It was from Kopekin in Istanbul. And it read, H requests me to inform you that Banat left for Sofia on train. All well. Safe journey to England. Best wishes. I thought of the pistol in my cabin. I laughed to myself. It was a Nigerian day. Intensely colored in the sun with small pink clouds drifting in a bleached Indigo sea. I lazed in my bunk. I had coffee sent in. And later I was standing by the rail talking to the little Frenchman. Beautiful. My wife has no appreciation for the lights such as these.  My wife, you mean? Oh, well, one cannot have everything. She is a wonderful cook. Oh, fortunate. Yes. Oh, by the way, have you met our new passenger? New passenger? Yes, didn't you know? We stopped at the island of Lemnos during the night. He came aboard then. A Greek, I think. I hardly heard what he said. Because at that moment from the lounge stepped a man. Beneath the high-crowned soft-belt hat with the pale, doughy features of a face I had seen before. A face in a photograph. A photograph that Colonel Hockey had shown me. It was the man who had tried to kill me. The Romanian. Banat. Escape under the direction of Norman McDonald returns in just a moment. Even the children cheer when they know it's open in our Miss Brooke's classroom. Yes, she's here charming, romantic, utterly madcap and played to the hilt by Hollywood's Eve Arden. You'll love her. You'll laugh with her again tonight and most of the same CBS stations. Our Miss Brooke starring Eve Arden. And now back to escape. I heard Matisse's voice as though from a long way off. Monsieur, do you not feel well? Then I turned him without looking at the man who had just come on deck. I went below. Somehow Banat must have learned that I was on the Cestri Levante. He had taken the train for Sofia and then as soon as it had crossed the Greek border left it. It was a simple thing to fly from there to Lemnas. I thought of the telegram all well. Well, who's idiots? And I was caught. Banat wouldn't miss twice. He was a professional murderer. I had to get help. And so I went to the purses office. He was a precise little man who smiled when I talked to him. Look, I found out there is a man on this ship who is here for the express purpose of murdering me. Indeed. And what is his name? Banat. B-A-M-A-T. He's a Romanian. Banat? Banat? One woman, sir. And I look here, you don't suppose he'd give his real name, do you? Banat? No. There is no one of that name or nationality aboard. He got on during the night at Lemnas. Oh, there is Mr. Mavrodopoulos. He's a Greek businessman. That may be what his passport says. His real name is Banat and he's a Romanian. Have you proof of that? Have I put... Now, look, if you're just Radio Colonel Hucky of the Turkish police at Istanbul, you'll confirm what I say. As I say, sir, we do not have radio for that purpose. I suggest that you leave the matter until we reach Athens. But can't you understand that man intends to kill me? No, sir. I do not understand. Nobody on this ship is going to murder you.  Oh. You have had bad dreams.  I want to see the captain. I am extremely busy, sir. If you will close the door as you leave. I was almost sick with fear and anger as I left and I went back to my cabin. Well, I could still go to the captain, but I could well imagine his reaction to my story. There was no proof. Now, these people were loath to stir up international complications. Oh. I was alone with my murderer somewhere on the ship with me. And then I remembered the revolver Korpakin had given me. I'd never handled a gun before, but at least it would give me a chance. It was something. I went to my suit case and I opened it. Well, it must be. I put it in myself. Just before I got on board, it had to be there. There was nothing. Someone had been in my cabin and had taken the gun. Mr. Graham, we were all worried about you. I told them that you had the sickness. Too much seed. Well, I'm sorry. I had rather a bad headache. I hope that it is nothing serious. No, thank you, Mr. Haller. Have you met Mr. Mavrodopoulos? No. I haven't had the pleasure. This is our English friend, Mr. Graham. How do you do? Nice. The soup is nauseating, Mr. Graham. I suggest that you do not partake of it. You must keep on. Sorry, my dear. Tell me, Mr. Mavrodopoulos, are you bound for Athens or do we enjoy your company as far as Genoa? I go to Athens. Then perhaps I continue on. Or perhaps not. A difficult decision, eh? And Mr. Mavrodopoulos? Yes. And notice your hand, Mr. This bandage. An accident. Nothing serious. A bullet wound, to be exact.   You must look after yourself carefully.  Next time. Oh, I shall. There's not the slightest doubt of that. That's a very epistol, eh? Naturally. That is good. One must be so careful. You should be very careful. I don't think it's necessary. That sort of scum doesn't risk his skin with an armed man. A grin that had been on the Romanian's face faded. He hadn't liked that. And then I thought of something. Banat had taken my gun. It must be somewhere in his cabin. If I could slip away for five minutes, there was still a chance. As soon as the luncheon ended, I excused myself and I wandered off. I could see Banat engaged in conversation with Mati, and I prayed that it would be a long one. Banat's cabin was strangely bare. A gray raincoat hung with a soft hat behind the door, and a battered suitcase was under the lower berth. But the gun was nowhere to be found. Nor was it anywhere in the cabin. I went to my quarters feeling helpless and leading a drink to steady my nerves. I've been waiting for you, Mr. Graham. Mr. Haller. I rather think that you have been looking for something. A gun, possibly? Would this be it? Well, I don't understand how you... I know, Mr. Graham. Please, don't come any closer. Sit down. I came to have a little talk with you. Sit down.  You have caused us a great deal of trouble and money. Yes, I begin to see now. I wonder if your name happens to be Borosheen and not Haller. Dear me, I had no idea that you are so well informed. Girl Hockey must have been a very talkative mood. And did he know I was in Istanbul? I don't think so. I thought not. You see, in order to take care of you, I had to take a hand myself. It was extremely careless at your hotel. When I found yesterday morning that you were to leave on this boat, I had to move very quickly. Luckily, there was a man named Haller who had book passage with his assistant three days ago. Therefore, I took over his ticket and passport. Poor unfortunate. But it would have been awkward to book passage at the last minute without attracting Colonel Hockey's attention. Yes. I imagine it would. I'm not supposing you come to the point. Certainly. It must be clear to you that we cannot allow you to return to England. The obvious method of reading ourselves of your presence is to shoot you the moment you land. But that could become complicated. It could. The other alternative is to induce you to take a holiday for six weeks or more. I see. In other words, you hold up my return to England and would be delayed to the point of uselessness for the Turkish government. You have a keen mind, Mr. Graham. Tonight, we rich Athens. If you like the idea, you will live to see you in England again. And if I refuse to take this holiday? Then things will be complicated, will they not? I think you're bluffing. Hasn't it occurred to you that I shall repeat this conversation to the captain? It has occurred to me. I told him this morning. I'm afraid that the ship's officers, including the captain, have enjoyed the joke very much. They call you the mad Englishman and love. Well, Mr. Graham, rich is a tope. If I take this holiday, where will it be? In a charming villa near Athens. You will enjoy all the comforts of home, I assure you. I shall give you an hour to think about it. Remember, we are not at war, Mr. Graham. You are not a soldier.  No one will ever know. It was not a pleasant choice he had given me. I knew that Bernat and he could keep their promise to kill me when I landed. And I was equally sure that the holiday Voroshin spoke of would be a very long one. That either way, I should never return to my wife or to England. I sat for half an hour smoking and trying to think. And then I remembered. Matty. Yes? Oh, Mr. Graham. May I speak to you for a moment? But of course. What is it? Mr. Graham, my chair. Would you come into my cabin? Certainly. I shall be back in a moment, my dear. I need your help. It's not that you look serious. Is it money? No. No, I want you to take a message for me when we dock at Athens. A message? Monsieur Matty, you are the only man aboard I feel that I can trust. I am honored. Listen. I'm employed by a British armor manufacturer. I'm working in joint service with the British and Turkish governments. No. When I get off the ship tonight an attempt will be made to kill me. This is true. Yes, I'm afraid it is. What I want you to do is to go to the Turkish consulate in Athens and give him a message for me. Will you do that? I will do it. You realize the message is highly confidential. I will say nothing. Thank you. All right, then. This is it. Inform Colonel Haki, Istanbul, that Graham is forced to accompany Soviet agents Voroshin and Banat, traveling with passports of Hala and Mavr Populus. Is it possible? Unfortunately, it is. Go on. In the event of my death please inform the British consulate that these men are responsible. Come on, dear. So that is why you looked sick when I spoke of Marodopoulos this morning.  You have a gun? But yes, we won't have it. Then there is something else you can do for me. Let me buy your revolver. I will not sell it to you. I give it to you. Here. Thank you. But let me help you. Oh, I am grateful, Monsieur Mati. And you will take the message. It is understood. Have no fear. A half an hour later I told Voroshin that I would agree to his plan. I'm sure that he didn't believe me. But nor did he know that I was armed. It was a forlorn hope. But if I was going to die I would have the satisfaction of knowing that others would die with me. At eight o'clock the Cestri Levanti was approaching her birth. I had agreed to pass through customs and to meet Voroshin on the street. As I stood at the rail watching the key drawing closer I saw Barnat standing to one side hand in pocket and a fat smile on his face. He knew that he was going to earn his fee tonight. Voroshin stepped off the ship first turned and waved cheerily to me. Barnat followed him and they both disappeared into the custom shed. I walked slowly down the gangway and Mr. Kuvetli came pushing after me. Mr. Graham! Yes, what is it? Colonel Huckley would be very angry with me if I allowed you out of my sight. Huck, I wanted to tell you before on deck but Barnat was watching. I did not dare to say anything earlier.   One of Huckie's men? Yes, I nearly gave the game away when I spoke of my nonexistent tobacco firm. I thought you would know when the Frenchman questioned me. Colonel Huckley wanted to be sure that you caught your plane safely. That is why I was aboard. But what can we do? Together we go through customs and then we shall see. Customs inspection as ever on the continent was slow. Although I find myself wishing that it would never end. But it did. And if Kuvetli had a plan he evidently didn't feel it were mentioned. He smiled at everyone. The plump little businessman who to all appearances would deal in ladies' a very rather than international intrigue. We found ourselves suitcases in hand walking toward the street. So that is over. I find this inspection so tedious. Now, look here, Kuvetli. I'm extremely grateful for your presence, but what are we going to do? Borusheen and Barnat are waiting out there with a car. They're waiting for me. I know, I know. It has all been arranged. But you mean that we walk through those doors and do nothing? Absolutely nothing. I have. Good. So have I. Oh? Yes. Thanks to the Frenchman. There they are. But do we run for it? Go and walk here, Mr. Graham. Keep your hand away from your pocket. That's it. Are you mad?  You, Mr. Graham, not me. Go on. And if my overcoat is a gun, please do not make trouble. Go on.   We're ready, Borusheen. We can long enough. Hurry up. Get the gun, Borusheen, left-hand pocket. In, Mr. Graham. Look out! I remember a perfect fuselade of shots and then something cracked me on the skull and I was falling. It was all very dark and comfortable. Mr. Graham. Mr. Graham. Mmm. Mr. Graham. Ah. He's all right. Mr. Graham. Mr. Copekin and Colonel Hockey. You're safe. Oh. Oh, good show. You've been unconscious. Really? You are at the airport now. You see, we found the bodies of two men in Ankara. They were archaeologists. Hallar and his assistant. I realized that Borusheen and one of his men must have boarded the ship using their passports. Yes, I found that out. We flew a government plane here, Copekin, and I, to wait for you. The Greek authorities were kind enough to assist. Yes, sir. Very kind. Not at all. And now, my dear fellow, the plane is waiting to take you to England. We'll see you safely aboard. Yes. I say, what about Banat and Borusheen and Kuwaitli? Oh, yes. It was rather unfortunate. After you fell, they tried to get away in the car. Someone hit a tire. There was a smash up. It raged them. Oh, yes. Well, it's very decent of you. My dear fellow, it has been a pleasure. Come along. We will help you to your plane. I am sure you're anxious to get home to England and your wife. Come along. Under the direction of Norman McDonnell, Escape has brought you journey into fear by Eric Embler, especially adapted for Escape by Anthony Ellis. Ben Wright was starred as Graham. Featured in the cast were Wilms Herbert, Edgar Berrier, Ralph Sedan, Anne Morrison, Jack Krushen, Luke Ruegman, and Shimon Ruskin. The special music for Escape was composed and conducted by Ivan Dettmars. Next week, Escape with us to Malaya and the wreaking, stricken city of LaPore, where a young doctor and a beautiful girl are faced with the horrors of plague and the bloody holocaust of a native revolt, as Charles Israel tells it in Funeral Fires. Stay tuned now for Make Believe Town, which follows immediately on many of these same CBS stations. Roy Rowan speaking for CBS, where you spend an hour with Frank Sinatra every Sunday afternoon on the Columbia Broadcasting System.


Now look, I ain't mean to disrupt your evening or if you watching this in the morning I ain't mean for you to wake up to this, but it's gonna be okay. It's okay. It's okay But anyway getting right into it Benjamin Albright who's been covering the Broncos for a long time He was apparently texting with his guy Ryan Edwards who covers the Broncos on Broncos radio network and This is what Ryan Edwards had to say about some teams calling in about Trey Lance former 49er quarterback Trey Lance, but now cowboy Trey Lance anyway. It said Atlanta Baltimore and Dallas have already called about Trey Lance. No word on Denver yet so I guess um, I guess Benjamin Albright was trying to see if Denver was gonna be interested in Trey Lance Because again, he covers the Broncos and whatnot but guess no word on Denver yet and then Benjamin Albright said not Miami and Ryan Edwards said for me not that I was told yet Vikings to they also call but no no Miami So I know Baltimore being on that list. It had a lot of people kind of like huh Baltimore Ravens Why what the Baltimore Ravens calling on Trey? Like now One thing that we do know about air to Costa if it's somebody that's available The air gonna make a call. He even if like even if it's not a crazy amount of interest There gonna make a call. He will make that phone call. He will check in just seeing what it's looking like No, just inquiring I just wanted to know Because we've seen that before a lot and I'm sure there's plenty of times when Eric the Casa checks in on somebody and we may not even hear about it But Eric the Casa he does you know that saying that you always hear from the Ravens do their due diligence now I know there's some people who will be wondering like man. What the Ravens call about Trey Lance He was a number three overall pick. Why would they call about me plays a quarterback? We already got a quarterback situation, but wait but wait Backup quarterback Back up QB Hey, you always looking for ways to make the team better and right now there is a backup QB competition So maybe just maybe Eric the Casa was like, hmm How can I make this backup QB competition even more competitive now? I wonder I don't think but just just thinking out loud because I love to think out loud with y'all Something else. I was thinking could him just and again, he's just checking And this is this is just me spitball and whatever but could This mean that Tyler Huntley's injury may be a little more serious. Maybe I don't know. I don't know I don't know just I don't think it is but I'm just just thinking out loud. Could it mean that but Anyway, it's just strictly for backup QB competition. Of course, it's not for Lamar Lamar Just got his bread and one thing about these Ravens that we've seen They they gonna try to breathe some backup quarterbacks They gonna certainly try to breathe some backup quarterbacks like Tyler Huntley the dude came out of no undrafted rookie free agent Came out of no way. I remember when he first hit the field. We was like, hold up. Is that is that another Lamar Jackson? What is that? And Then Josh Johnson, I mean, I can't say the Ravens breeder Josh Johnson. He done played literally everywhere in the league But now they're working on Anthony Brown and he got a tiny tiny bit of starting experience in the NFL now He started one game last year. I think what does against the Steelers? I forget but anyway Ravens They really trying to upgrade their backup QB position and remember to earlier remember earlier this offseason They tried to sign Baker Mayfield They try to sign Baker Mayfield they try to sign all the quarterbacks are they going against in the preseason Baker Mayfield getting ready to see him tomorrow. Oh, wow Well, maybe when you're seeing this today, but getting ready to go against Baker Mayfield went against Jacobi Brasette who they tried to sign to So they were really like putting in that work trying to upgrade their backup QB position So the fact that they called about trade Lance Um, initially when I first saw that the screen shot of that text I said, what but then I was like, oh, okay Okay. Yeah, I get it. I get it. So no worries over here Ravens fans. Anyway, I love y'all I appreciate y'all make sure you subscribe to the channel turn notifications on so you don't miss anything subscribe subscribe subscribe Tell your friends and family about it I know a lot of y'all already do and we are all friends and family. So I appreciate y'all I love y'all so much leave a like on the video. I know this was Snooze kind of startled some people not too many. I know Ravens fans. You're like y'all are really small So you already know what time it was But anyway, I love y'all so much. I appreciate y'all so much Thank you all so much Real quick side note to the I gotta apologize because I know for the team keep it clean Patrons and the team keep it clean channel members y'all show a lot of extra support to the channel Which is definitely appreciate it really is I appreciate that a whole lot. Thank you my apologies that I just It's just is very cuz with with with patreon I know there's a lot of people that that like have different like Spiffs and different gifts and different like different tiers where they do certain things on patreon But and I really want to do that But I it's just very hard because we be so busy we be so busy because I know y'all see video after video The video the video the video the video video after this and after that and it's because it's always it's always something going on It's always something to talk about but um, I just uh, I Want to do more for y'all I really do But it's just it's it's just a lot like It's a lot that goes on and goes into everything that y'all see But just know that I appreciate y'all I don't think y'all enough Especially the patrons and the channel members. I don't think y'all enough but you There's a lot of gratitude over here For y'all and you guys support seriously really really really really really is and my apologies that I don't show it enough So that's on me. That's on me It's a lot of things is going on in the background with the channel right now trying to get some stuff figured out I actually got to let teamkeeper clean know about something that's Ah, it's it's pretty annoying.  But this is not that But we'll talk about that soon and I think a lot of y'all might actually be able to help out with that And it's it's gonna be nothing that anybody is thinking about trust me You like but we'll talk about that when we talk about it. So anyway, I love you all Appreciate you all Man, thank you straight up man. Just just thank you for everything Ravens played a Bucks tomorrow Not sure if we'll be live streaming it yet. Not 100% sure But either way y'all I'll let y'all know But anyway one last time I love you I appreciate you sorry this video started to get all over the place at the end But I just had to let y'all know again, especially to pay everybody is appreciated for sure But definitely that the patrons and the channel members I like I said, I wish I could do more I want to do more, but I just thank you all for continuing to support Just straight up just to support Because a lot of people and some people have some people like oh, no ain't no perks or nothing like that I'm out of here and that's fine. I got a problem with that. I respect it But I appreciate y'all especially the ones who have ever been a patron before ever been a channel member Even if you canceled you still watch the channel. That's cool. That's fine. I ain't got no problem with it I love y'all and I appreciate everybody's support man team keeping clean


Our next speaker, Lincoln Cannon, is a technologist and philosopher and leading advocate of technological evolution and post-secular religion. He's a founder, board member, and former president of the Mormon Transhumanist Association. He's also a founder and board member of the Christian Transhumanist Association. He formulated the New God argument, a logical argument for faith in God that is popular among religious transhumanists. Lincoln is CEO at Thrivis, a human enhancement company. He's married with Dorothy Vancricange, and they have three children, and I also am proud to call him my friend. Lincoln. All right, sorry about the delay. We're going to talk this morning about the return of Christ, and I'm going to touch a little bit on how it relates to transhumanism, but my focus is going to be on the foundations, on some foundational theology that leads to what I believe is a more robust Christian and Mormon transhumanism. Some thoughts for friends that might not be Christian on why this is still important. As measured by a number of adherents, Christianity is by far the most influential ideology in human history, and the prophecy of the return of Christ is the most important prophecy in that religion. It's had incredible influence on the thoughts of billions of human beings, their words and their actions, and those actions have shaped our world. They continue to shape our world. Even if you're not a Christian, the effects of the prophecy of the return of Christ may still be momentous in your life. With that in mind, let's consider how the Bible describes the return of Christ. We can read that in the 24th chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the Bible, and Jesus introduces the subject by saying, watch out that no one deceives you, for many will come in my name, claiming I am the Messiah and will deceive many. So will the return of Christ be in the wilderness, maybe as a return to simplicity? The Luddites would love this, but Jesus actually says no, that's not going to be the case. In Matthew, where he describes his prophecy of the return of Christ, he says, if anyone tells you there he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out, he says. How about in the inner rooms, maybe as some kind of carefully shared secret? Just yesterday, for example, I received a Google Plus message, this is a true story, from somebody who told me that he wanted to invite me to a secret priesthood, and he introduced himself and said, by the way, I am Jesus, literally. And as it turns out, Jesus says no to this one too. In Matthew 24, he says, if anyone tells you, here he is in the inner rooms, do not believe it. I pointed this out to my would-be Jesus, and I'll quote his reply to me, he said, goodbye Satan, the Lord rebuke you. And as it turns out, that wasn't the first time I've been called Satan, so I just let it go. So if the return of Christ won't be in the wilderness, and it won't be in secret rooms, maybe it will be in great signs and wonders. Maybe we can recognize Christ in some extraordinary, some incomprehensible event. But yet again, Jesus says no. False messiahs and false prophets will appear, and perform great signs and wonders to deceive if possible even the elect, he says. So then what's left? Matthew 24 reads, for as lightning, these are the words of Jesus, for as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory, and he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. That's how Jesus describes the return of Christ. And on its surface, that description can be hard to distinguish, I admit, from great signs and wonders against which he had just warned us. So maybe it shouldn't come as a surprise that many Christians understand the return of Christ too narrowly. I have two questions for you to think about. The first question, why does Jesus speak in the third person? And why does he refer to the Son of Man? The second question, as you look at this picture, an artist's depiction of what Jesus was describing, who is Jesus looking at? I'll return to those questions later on. Let's explore the meaning of the word Christ. The English word Christ comes from the Greek word Christos. The English word Messiah comes from the Hebrew word Mashiach. And as it turns out, both Christos and Mashiach have the same meaning. Literally, a Christ or a Messiah is somebody who is ritually anointed, or in other words, they're anointed with oil as part of a ceremony. Figuratively, a Christ or a Messiah is someone who is set apart or designated with a special purpose, and that special purpose is typically one to serve God by helping the people overcome their enemies. Those enemies can be concrete like, say, an invading army or an oppressive government, or those enemies could be abstract, maybe spiritual alienation from God or from each other. In the Hebrew Bible, Jesus is not the only person designated as a Christ or as a Messiah. This up here is a picture of King David, or soon to be King David, as it turns out, preparing to be king of Israel and Judah. He's being anointed with oil, literally making him a Christ. And figuratively, he's becoming a Christ with responsibility to protect the people and to establish justice. The Hebrew Bible designates David as a Messiah multiple times, and it regularly designates other Jewish kings as Messiahs, including Saul and Solomon. The Hebrew Bible doesn't stop there. It also actually designates a non-Jewish king as a Messiah as well. The prophet Isaiah talks about Cyrus, the great of Persia. Cyrus happened to rule the highest percentage of humanity of any empire in human history. And during his reign, he liberated the Jewish people to establish their religion in Jerusalem. Here are Isaiah's words. This is what God says to his Messiah, to Cyrus, he says, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that the gates will not be shut. I will go before you and level the mountains. I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron.  I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, Messiah or Christ. Although you do not acknowledge me. Cyrus was not at you. I find these words from Isaiah fascinating on multiple levels, and I'm going to refer to them again later as we go along. The Hebrew Bible also designates Jewish priests as messiahs, like Jewish kings. They were literally anointed with oil during a ritual to make them priests. And figuratively, they were Christs in their responsibility to the people with God to help people reconcile with God and with each other. In the King James English translation of the Bible, all but one of seventy uses of the word atonement are references to ritual sacrifices performed by Jewish priests that might surprise some Christians who look at the word atonement as being associated uniquely with Jesus. So in other words, many times in the Bible, before it designates Jesus as Christ, and many times before it designates his work as atonement, which it only does once, sixty-nine other times it tells us about other Christs performing other atonements. Despite the precedent of many Christs, some Christians seek to raise Jesus exclusively above others, idolizing him. They exalt him over everything that is called God or his worship, which happens to be the way Paul describes the Son of Perdition. And they do that despite Jesus' refusal to exalt himself over others. In the Gospel of John, who is there depicted laying on Jesus' lap, Jesus prays to God, saying, I pray also for those who will believe in me, Christians. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. The Apostle Paul, who actually is riding closer in time to the life of Jesus than the Gospels, repeatedly over and over again emphasizes that Christ should be in each of us. To the Romans, he writes, we are heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. To the Corinthians, he writes, you are the body of Christ and Christ Jesus is in you. To the Galatians, he writes, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and all of you who are baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. And to the Colossians, he writes, God has chosen to make known the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you. The Apostle Peter, they're pictured receiving keys from Christ from Jesus, adds divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life. Through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these, he has given us very great and precious promises so that through them, you may participate in the divine nature. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith godliness. And for centuries following Peter, countless other Christian authorities have repeated, they have elaborated, they've celebrated the idea that we should all become one in Christ with Jesus. This is called the doctrine of theosis, or divinization per the Catholics, or apotheosis for the Eastern Orthodox. Some people call it deification, some people have called it Christosis. Pope John Paul II, this might surprise some of you, wrote, God incorporates us into the body of his Christ. Through the anointing of his spirit who flows from head to the members, he makes us other Christs. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called Christs. The Book of Mormon explicitly and repeatedly encourages us to take on the name of Christ. Perhaps most poignantly, King Benjamin says, you should take on the name of Christ. Whoever does this will be found at the right hand of God, for he will know the name by which he is called, for he will be called by the name of Christ. Benjamin's words remind me of Isaiah's words to Cyrus of Persia, as you recall we mentioned those earlier.  Maybe we should consider Isaiah's words to Cyrus, a prophecy about all who would take on the name of Christ. But of course names aren't enough, as the apostle Paul points out in the New Testament, the kingdom of God is not a matter of words, but a matter of power. So in practice then, what does it mean to be Christ? How can we be Christ not only in name, but also in power? Jesus says that we should love. Jesus says that we should console. He says that we should forgive. One of my favorite stories about Jesus is when people bring a paralyzed man to him and ask Jesus to heal him. Instead of healing him though, almost as if it's kind of a joke, Jesus forgives the paralyzed man. I can imagine his friends looking at their feet wondering if Jesus actually understood what they were asking him. So Jesus asks them what's easier to do, to heal or to forgive. And then he goes on to explain again using the third person and again using the phrase son of man. He says the son of man has power to forgive. And then finally he goes on to heal the paralyzed man. I think this story is teaching that although it may be hard for us to heal each other, we all have the power to forgive each other. All of us are the son of man, or we might say the children of humanity. And that can inform how we interpret Jesus' description of the return of Christ when he also uses the third person and references the son of man. Per the apostle James, he says that we should feed the hungry and clothe the naked. And it's not enough, he says, that we simply tell them to be fed and clothed. Rather we have to actually feed them. We have to actually clothe them. Faith without works is dead, he says. So like today, when James lived, food was generally a product of agriculture, a technology. Clothing was generally a product of manufacturing, more primitive than today, but nonetheless a technology. So when James exhorts us to show our faith through our works, he's exhorting us to use technology to help each other, and that is power. Jesus goes even further. This is a depiction of Lazarus being resurrected. Jesus tells us that we should heal the sick, and he says to his disciples, raise the dead. That's a pretty audacious idea. And medicine can help us treat each other, help us heal each other. But do we take Jesus seriously when he tells us to raise the dead? How do we do that? I don't know the answer to that question, of course, otherwise I'd be doing it. But the Book of Mormon has some helpful advice for would be Christ's. In its many stories of people finding or making means to live up to the name of Christ. The stories motivated a generation of Mormon pioneers to cross planes and mountains and to begin to build their vision of Zion here in Utah. The practical attitude behind these stories is perhaps best expressed by the words of Nephi and Captain Moroni in the Book of Mormon. Nephi says, I will go and do the things that God has commanded because God gives no commands except he prepares a way to accomplish them. Captain Moroni asks rhetorically, do you suppose that you could sit on your thrones? And because of the exceeding goodness of God, you could do nothing and God would deliver you? Do you suppose that God will still deliver us while we sit upon our thrones, I could say sit on our hands, and do not make use of the means that God has provided to us? If you suppose this, you have supposed in vain, says Captain Moroni. In the same spirit to Joseph Smith wrote, God should not command in all things. People that are compelled in all things are slothful and not wise. Everyone should be anxiously engaged in a good cause and do many things of their own free will, for the power is in them. And then directly on the subject of redeeming the dead, Joseph exemplified faith that we could find a way, that we would find a way. And his claim in the 128th section of the Doctrine and Covenants is that God ordained before the world was that which would enable us to redeem our dead out of their prison for the prisoners will go free. In closing, let's return again to the return of Christ. The apostle John writes, when Christ appears, we will be like Christ. The Book of Mormon repeats and affirms those words from John. And I think that they are the key to understanding the return of Christ. So let's hear Jesus again. He says, for as lightning that comes from the east is visible even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man, on the clouds of heaven with great power and great glory. So remember the two questions I asked you to think about earlier. The first one, in this description of the return of Christ, why does Jesus speak in the third person? What does he mean by this reference to the Son of Man? Well, as I mentioned before, I think that whenever Jesus talks about the Son of Man, we should understand him to be talking about all of us, the children of humanity. So re-reading his words with that replaced, for as lightning that comes from the east is visible in the west, so will be the coming of the children of humanity, on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And then the second question I asked you to think about was regarding the picture. Who is Jesus looking at? And I'll suggest to you that Christ is looking at Christ. Thank you. I guess I have a few minutes for Q&A. Somebody asked a hard question. Come on. Yeah, the question was, when I explained this conception of the return of Christ or of Christ generally, what kind of reactions do I get? And how do I manage those reactions? Well, the reactions vary quite a bit. There are, of course, many Christian fundamentalists, including among some Mormons who are kind of fundamentalist, fundamentalistically inclined, that will react with hostility to this idea because they have been raised to believe or been trained to believe that Jesus somehow wants to be different in kind from the rest of us. And, of course, they've demonized me often. I mentioned when I was talking that this person who was claiming to be Jesus in this particular case told me I was Satan. He's not the only person who has ever done that. Some people have called me Satan for claiming that Jesus should not be the only Christ. So how do I deal with it when they respond negatively? Well, I try to help them look at their scriptures that they value. In fact, I think one of the most valuable things about the scriptures is that we can use them to undermine dogmatism invariably because the scriptures are not always internally consistent for one, right? So they present various views and we can go between those views and help people see different ways of approaching them and valuing them. So when I deal with religious dogmatism in general, Christian in particular, I try to just go back to the Bible and reason about it with them. I try to reaffirm to them that I value it, that it inspires me, that it motivates me, that I have a great deal of reverence for Jesus and that that reverence is actually what leads me to recognize that what Jesus taught was that you and I should be Christ within. What's immoral about that? Yeah, so the question is, what's immoral about idolizing Jesus? Paul, of course, points out that there are a couple of conceptions of God. One would be the kind of God that would raise itself above others, declaring itself God, and he associates that with what he calls the Son of Perdition, or what Christians might call Satan. And then he also depicts another kind of God, and that is a God that would raise each other together as joint heirs in the glory of God, and he associates that with Christ. What's the morality he's trying to pull out in this? Well, one is only being concerned with itself and its own glory, raising itself above others. The other is being concerned with shared glory and shared potential, and I don't think that we can make any sense out of morality. I think it becomes utterly meaningless unless it becomes something about us, about an exchange between people and our values and our desires, and Jesus exemplifies that extraordinarily. So Sam's question is, how does this interpretation of there being multiple Christs fit in with the idea of atonement, where we often think about atonement being between maybe us and God, whereas if we're all members of the body of Christ, should atonement apply to interactions between us? I think that clearly and repeatedly, Paul in the New Testament actually teaches that atonement, he uses the word reconciliation because the word atonement only appears once in the New Testament. He uses the word reconciliation. We are ambassadors of the reconciliation, and the reconciliation is not intended to be just between us and God, just our spiritual alienation with the divine. It's intended to be between each other, and Paul even goes so far as to say that that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ, or that which is yet to be finished of the atonement, is happening in his own flesh, Paul's flesh, for the church's sake as he works for them and suffers for them, and boy did he suffer to share the gospel of Christ 2,000 years ago. He and his compatriots. So, yeah, I think the answer to your question is we should reimagine the concept of atonement to be not only between us and our conception of the divine, but that we are becoming divine, all of us, as a united body of Christ, and that atonement should be happening between each other, loving, serving, healing, consoling, raising each other from the dead, I think is an expression of atonement between us. I don't think that detracts from the idea that we ought to be united. In a sense, the Bible says there's one Christ, and yet many Christs, I mean, the Platonists love that idea, right? There's one form in many instances.


Welcome to Amsterdam. And KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2023. Join John Furrier, Savannah Peterson, Rob Streche, and UPSCOT. As the Kube covers the largest conference on Kubernetes, CloudNative, and open source technologies together with developers, engineers, and IT leaders from around the globe. Live coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2023 is made possible by the support of Red Hat, the CNCF, and its ecosystem partners. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Kube's coverage here at KubeCon in Amsterdam. It's Europe. It's CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier, host of the Kube at Rob Streche. Analyst in the Kube. Got a deep echo here. CTO of D2iQ, formerly MesoStreet for the folks in the industry going back in the beginning of DevOps and containers and all this great stuff happening now. Deepak, thank you for coming on the Kube. Thank you for having me. So we've been unpacking a lot of the trends here. The Kube's been to every single Kubernetes KubeCon since its existence, I think that our 13th episode here. It just gets better and better on the mainstream adoption. Still so much work to do, simplicity, a lot of challenges there. Although they score themselves great on portability, Rob and I think that Rob's more on the, they need more work on portability. But overall, Kubernetes, being more enterprise grade, the progress is there. WebAssembly is looking good. A lot of devs coming together. Infrastructure Express Code is a done deal. We're starting to see it go mainstream. Containers, virtualization moving into containers, big migrate, a lot of headroom from a business standpoint. A lot of more projects coming down the pike. You guys are the center of it. Where do you see it going on here? What's the top story at KubeCon this year from a Kubernetes standpoint? So Kubernetes, over this years, I would say the day zero aspect of Kubernetes has simplified quite a bit. It has become a no opt for anybody to bring up a Kubernetes cluster. But Kubernetes alone is not enough to run in production. I would say it's an enabler to create a platform. So that's why it's an API based and it has been very successful. What we're starting to see is people moving higher in the stack and abstracting some of the complexities of Kubernetes to simplify it. As bigger organization, Global 2000s are adopting Kubernetes, they need that simplicity to spin up a cluster which is production ready, which is secured by nature, which has observability, which has monitoring, logging. All traditional aspects of a cluster that they have always seen in another platform. Now you would see there's integration points happening in Kubernetes as well. Yeah, and I think you had some announcements that, to me, signal that Kubernetes really has a lot of momentum. It's the fact that you're going into air-gapped environments, the fact that you're going into managed service providers. I think to me that would lead me to believe that there's newer people coming in looking at these microservices built applications. Exactly. In fact, one of the CNCF surveys from two years back have showcased that all the innovations that are happening in any industries, you take blockchain, you take digital reality, genomics, robotics. In fact, the chat GPT, which I'm pretty sure is known, named in every house, is being run on Kubernetes. So Kubernetes has become the de facto platform for that is fueling innovation in every area today. So one of the rise of Kubernetes impact has been the enterprise application award that we heard earlier. That's not a really word. As it gets more mainstream, Rob was talking about the platform engineering piece becoming much more defined from a practice standpoint, where team formation, roles. You guys talk a lot about this. This is the hot trend here, KubeCon. What does platform engineering mean today? And how do you see that rolling forward? Is it a modernized version of IP with a reconfigured or what's your view of platform engineering? Platform engineering is a team that is responsible or it's a concept about creating reusable standard tools that are scalable, that are consistent, that brings in the consistency in managing the platform. There has been a trend, especially which was started when the cloud services came a thing where developers started doing their own things. And that led to correlation of different toolings, a different way of doing the same things. And it was a costly thing when they do that. What platform engineering has started doing is consolidating all those where it was standard tooling, where developers can still achieve the agility that they hope to achieve with a cloud native platform, but in a much more consistent and cost effective manner. What's the biggest impact to IT from an infrastructure's code standpoint as DevSecOps becomes day two like, more day two like as we were saying, what's the big impact? What's different about platform engineering than classic IT? The platform engineering, classic IT was responsible. They didn't have the insights into what the developer requirements are. What they used to provide is the infrastructure on the request basis. Platform engineering is, I would say much, if I had to use a word, is an aware IT ops, which is they now understand the platform through, like for example, Kubernetes. And they configure in such a way that takes away the burden from developers and standardize them into a platform so that developers can focus on their developing the application, making their life easier. Like for example, deploying the cluster, making sure the cluster is elastic, secure, easy to use. Whereas the developer can focus on their business applications. And I think what's really key to that, and I think it is that centralization. I'd like to say my former employer, Amazon, with their two pizza teams kind of started a whole movement where you're going to have, okay, eight people and a manager, eight people and a manager using different systems, different methods, different SREs, different DevOps on different infrastructure and different tooling. It would seem that the CIO is really helping lead some consolidation around it. Is that what you're seeing? Yes, exactly. So what led to, one of the, DevOps has been very good in achieving the agility and time to market. But what it missed is it led to the problems like cluster sprawl, cloud sprawl, where developers are spinning because their main focus is how to get their code running in production easily. But for the organization as a whole, it created some of the challenges, which is what is simplified by having platform engine or IT team, which has the experience and expertise to use like something we call instance platform engineering, which is using the right platform, right tooling and providing an environment for developers where they can still feel self-managed and self-serve, but under the guardrails of the platform that the platform engineering has provided. Deepak, Rob and I were talking about day one. Remember we talked about developer productivity? Oh yeah. So this gets at the heart of developer productivity because obviously platform engineering has to enable not just a service organization like the classic IT. Developers are setting the agenda. Right. So developer productivity is number one. So assume platform engineering is in place. What are some of the developer productivity challenges and opportunities today? Obviously S-bombs, supply chain is a big problem. Now you've got Genovi, putting code in the mix. We call it code pollution coming in. Stack overflow just ban chat GPT. They don't want any of that in there. It's a nightmare. So like you have all this hardened kind of mindset going on. But yet developers want more data. So how do you see the whole developer equation from a productivity standpoint to a consumption? Because we're not B to D anymore. It's B, D, B to D. Right. This is developer. I mean, there is a consumer. Right. So I give an analogy with the car analogy. It's like if we ask a driver to configure the engine first before driving the car, they'll say they can't drive the car because their whole time will go in configuring the engine itself. In developers without this platform engineering is something like that. They have to first configure their system before they can use their system, which kills their productivity. What enables their productivity is a platform that is secure. Right. That is scalable. That is user standardized tooling that is consistent and easy to use and easy to deploy. Right. So the developers can come in and deploy their application without worrying about whether it's a secure way of deploying the application. Is somebody attacking their applications? Right. All those concerns are being taken care by using a platform that provides this out of the box. How would you rate the productivity of today's developer on a scale of 1 to 10? Obviously, don't compare to old way, but like in DevOps. As DevOps becomes more mainstream, more tooling is out there. What's the... Before even I give the rank, I would say it gives a perception that the DevOps is becoming agile, but what's happening is it is creating shadow IT within those teams. Give an example. Because operations are complex by nature because of the things that you have to take care, security that we have talked about. What happens is in a typical team, the senior developers takes this responsibility of providing the operation. What ends up happening is the reverse effect of what the organization was expecting their senior engineers to be doing, which is like focusing on developing the business application instead of working on the operation. What happens is they start helping the junior engineers and it creates a model which is reversed to what the organization was expecting. And that leads to the cost inefficiency and effectiveness. And we call it as like a shadow DevOps. Yes. You agree? I would agree. But this is why platform engineering has gotten... It's becoming more mainstream is that it's bringing it back together so you're not to your... I think to your earlier comment, it's IT that is developer friendly versus an adversarial where that was very adversarial back. Even if you look at how databases were dealt with in VMware. Right. And I kind of look at everything that's old is new again and we kind of learned. It seems like, and very interested in your opinion on this, it seems like we're getting through that at a faster pace where it's coming together. Like the teams are coming together. One of the differences I would highlight in comparison with the traditional centralized IT was there was a ticketing system that used to be in place. Like the team would... If they need an infrastructure, they used to create a ticket for that team. That team will act on it. So that used to delay a lot of productivity or agility that the organization were looking for. That's why DevOps became so attractive because now you don't have to do any of the requests. You can just go and create your own thing. What Platform Engine allows it to do is they still maintain the agility and the self-serving and self-managing nature of DevOps, but they provide an environment that is being custom made for that environment. Instead of like centralized IT figuring out all the time based on request. Platform Engine is... That's why I was using the term aware centralized IT. Aware of what would be the need of developers and providing that environment. They still got to do it. Yeah. The job changes. It's faster. Agile is the key word. But the shadow IT example for devs is very interesting because they want to go faster. There's going to be consequences to this. It's got compliance, it's security. What are some of the things you've seen that's been bad that companies can avoid? Because I'm sure it's happening in other companies that no one knows about. But how do you identify it? And then what are some of the consequences or benefits of it? Benefits of Platform Engine. Well shadow IT you could argue was actually good because that helped the DevOps movement. So is there a positive or negative impact to shadow DevOps? It ultimately leads to a negative impact. That's why I was reading one article where CIO is saying after three or four years of their investment they are now looking for return on that investment which they are not seeing. Because what happens is initially it gives an impression that everything is moving fast but over time it builds up the maintenance and the operational burden of managing that platform. And that's where the organization realized that they missed on standardizing tooling. Like for example they may start with one cloud provider. Different teams would use different cloud providers. They maintain different toolings, different teams to different skillset and they lose the efficiency or the benefit of having some kind of a standardization. So the shadow IT and then it because it's not one time you launch a code and you forget about it. There's a continuous upgrade that happens. There's a continuous maintenance. And the teams are not benefited by having this cross team knowledge sharing because they do it by themselves. Yeah and I think that it's been interesting hearing. That's been a theme that we've been hearing. Especially the multiple cloud teams and things of that nature. Do you think projects like Backstage and others are going to really help bring that back so it becomes more of that, becomes the interface. And are you guys working on Backstage or with the Backstage group? I've heard a lot. We are not directly working on that but I have heard positive thing. What we have done is with our platform is something very similar. Which is like providing that instant out-of-the-box production ready environment which is multi-tenant. So that management platform is being maintained by platform engineering group but then it has the ability because it's multi-tenant it has the ability to function like a DevOps under the guardrail of what the platform has provided. For example just to give a simple example if an organization wants to provide a set of applications that their developers should be using without having their developers to select those applications then the central platform engineering team can expose those through the platform so that their developers can come in and spend those applications. So like a marketplace that you're providing. Right, exactly.  It was a really good piece of swag so high marks on the swag for the show. Did we get our sweatshirts? I haven't gone by yet. I'll have to swim by it somewhere. We'll buy a few sweatshirts. It's a great swag. Thank you. Well thanks for coming on. It's going to be an ongoing conversation. We should dig into it when we get back to the US. Platform engineering is moving fast. It's kind of recasting into, I won't say recasting into, I think it's redefining IT certainly has. The Shadow Dev is interesting because it could be an opportunity or it could be problematic. We'll see. I mean I've always felt Shadow IT was, swipe the credit card, get on Amazon. That funded the movement. It definitely did. It's definitely where it started. Deepak, thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. CTO of D2IQ here on theCUBE, breaking it down. Platform engineering, the new DevOps, the trends continue. Faster, more reliable and actually more portable Kubernetes. We'll be right back. The leader in tech coverage theCUBE, we'll be right back.


Well, I've got it. I'm okay with that. Let's go guys. Let's go. Let's go. Yeah, we got some right here