Mark asks, what is L2 ELTOO? Can you explain what the new proposal L2 ELTOO by a number of lightning network developers entails? What does it solve? Are there trade-offs? What are the barriers to its implementation? You remember previously, in one of my other answers, I was talking about how lightning network isn't a single protocol. It is a whole stack of protocols, and these can be interchangeable. You have some flexibility to use different protocols at different layers within the system. There is the basic one, which is node discovery and negotiation of capabilities between nodes. That is the fundamental peer-to-peer network. On top of that, you have the payment channel protocol. It is important to understand that we already have at least three different payment channel protocols. The first payment channel protocol, which is sometimes called L2 penalty, is the protocol invented and written by... in the original lightning network white paper by Joseph Boone and Taddeus Dragia. That type of payment channel, which is a unidirectional payment channel where the state is updated... by enforcing a penalty if someone tries to cheat and close the payment channel with an earlier state. That formulation is more accurately called a Boone-Dragia payment channel, named after the original authors. There is another formulation of payment channels, which are bi-directional payment channels that have some more flexibility. Those were invented by Decker and Walter Hoffman. Christian Decker is one of the developers at Blockstream, who is working on lightning network technologies. Together with a few others at Blockstream, who are working on that. Walter Hoffman was the other author of the paper on bi-directional payment channels. The most recent specification for payment channels is L2. It is spelled E-L-T-O-O, but it is pronounced L2 to sound like Layer 2. The acronym for Layer 2 Networks. L2 was put together by Christian Decker, Rusty Russell, and Laulu Ossentokun, who is known as Roast Beef and the developer from the lightning labs. These three developers wrote a paper recently called L2. These payment channels are now known as Decker, Russell, Ossentokun payment channels. What L2 does is a very neat improvement on the basic Boone-Dragia channels for Layer 2 Penalty, which makes the network much more efficient by removing the need to have a penalty implementation for transmitting intermediate states in the payment channel and trying to close the payment channel by cheating. That is going to make the setup and implementation of payment channels much more efficient, but removes some of the complexities in maintaining a lightning network node as an end user. Now, L2 requires a slight modification to the Bitcoin scripting language. Right now, you may have heard of a thing called a SIG hash. A SIG hash is a type of signature or modifier for signatures. When you sign a transaction in Bitcoin, you can sign it in a number of different ways. The most common signature is called a SIG hash all, which is where the hash that is being signed by the signature represents the hash of all inputs and all outputs in a transaction. There are a few others, such as SIG hash single, SIG hash none, etc. These allow you to sign just one pair of inputs and outputs in a big transaction, allowing multiple parties to join in and sign a transaction collaboratively. This is often used in CoinJoin. SIG hash none, where you are not signing any part of the transaction, can be modified, etc. One of the formulations that doesn't exist today is a proposed change called SIG hash no input, which is a way to sign a transaction such as to bind its outputs, but not its inputs, allowing the transaction to effectively be a floating transaction, where it can be bound to any compatible input. L2 uses this in order to create these very flexible payment channels, where you don't need to have a penalty mechanism. As each new state is broadcast within the payment channel, it invalidates the previous state by binding to its predecessor. You can read that paper online. If you search for ELTOO, you will find the original specification, as well as quite a few different explanations on what L2 does. A new protocol for payment channels, one of three proposed so far. The current Lightning network runs on the earliest form of payment channels called L2 penalty, or Poon Dryja payment channels, but there are some new possible payment channel protocols. These could run in the future in parallel. You could have a Lightning network where multiple different types of payment channels are available to nodes, and nodes can negotiate which type of payment channel they want to implement between themselves, while still routing across them in a way that is consistent. This is a very interesting possibility to have innovation within these protocols. In order for L2 to be implemented, it requires a small change to the Bitcoin scripting language. This change can be implemented as a soft fork, as an increment in the script version, which is possible on their Segwit, and will open the door to some very flexible and efficient payment channels. Not yet. We are still quite far from seeing that in production. Of course, as I said, we would need a change in the Bitcoin script language first. Enrico has a question about Lightning network routing algorithms. Lightning network bolt specifications leave the choice of the routing algorithm open to the implementation, and currently all nodes are using a very trivial source routing algorithm. Surely interesting metrics could be used for deciding the routing, such as maximization of privacy, minimization of hops, etc., but they are all just variations on the same theme. Is there a qualitative improvement that can be taken at some point, such as letting the intermediate hops decide the route, as generally TCP-IP routers do, or are there intrinsic limitations inside the Lightning network that prevent such flexible approaches to be implemented successfully? Great question, Enrico. One of the important considerations when building a multi-layer network is separation of concerns between the layers, meaning that you shouldn't try to do everything in a single layer. If you have separation and abstraction between layers, that means that you can plug and play different algorithms at different layers, and mix and match them to the things you want to do. There is no reason why the Lightning network runs one routing algorithm for everyone. In fact, like the internet, you can have multiple different competing routing algorithms, and a node can choose to use different algorithms in different parts of the protocol stack. The Lightning network isn't just one layer. We talk of it as a layer, too, but within the Lightning network. There are a number of layers. There is a peer-to-peer propagation network that uses a gossip protocol to propagate things like routes and information about nodes. Above that, there is essentially a protocol layer that has to do with how channels are implemented. We will talk about that in answer to one of the subsequent questions, because it has come up again and again. For example, the L2 penalty or Pundraja protocol, which is used in the traditional Bolt Lightning network we have today, and some future protocols like L2 and Decker-Waterhofer payment channels, which we will also talk about in a second. That is a second layer. Above that, you have a protocol layer that communicates hash-time-lock contracts, which are essentially the transport mechanism for payments within the Lightning network. Above that, you might have another layer for various types of interesting applications that use metadata within the HTLCs to do other things on Lightning. For example, Lightning channel factories, watchtowers, things like that, the application layer of labs. Routing is simply one layer within a broad protocol stack in the Lightning network. It is useful to have the flexibility to implement any type of routing algorithm independently of how you implement payment channels, where you might implement any number of payment channel algorithms or protocols, independent of how you do the underlying peer-to-peer negotiation of capabilities, node discovery, etc., where you may also have multiple different independent protocols. This type of abstraction between layers opens up the ability to do innovation at the edge, where each node can have a number of capabilities, negotiate those capabilities with other nodes, and you can evolve the network without having it stuck in a specific choice. The answer to your question is right now we have source-based routing, and the reason for that is really simple. It is the simplest algorithm. It provides great privacy, because only the source node knows the complete route. At the same time, it protects from leaking information to intermediate nodes. It works well enough for the current scale of Lightning network, so why fix it when it isn't broken? That is the mentality of this, which is engineer for what the problems are today. Today, the routing protocol scales well enough for the current scale of the Lightning network, and it achieves the goals of privacy, route discovery, and payment propagation. Therefore, why fix it? It works for now. Does that mean we can do routing other ways? Absolutely not. We can do routing. In fact, it is fairly easy to do the kind of intermediary routing that you describe, such as the routing mechanisms that are used in TCPIP. You can use a system of neighborhood and gateway routers, such as the protocols that are used in TCPIP, for example, BGP. You can use other routing protocols, which use intermediary nodes. Even very simple things like shortest path and hot potato routing algorithms, and all of these various approaches. For every one of these routing algorithms, you have to think of it as a set of trade-offs. Maybe it is easier to discover more routes and route things more efficiently. But what if you do that at the expense of privacy? If intermediary nodes know where the payment is going, then they can also block certain recipients. They can also start blacklisting certain channels. They can prevent you from using certain routes. If you achieve better routing, but at the expense of privacy and decentralization, that is not a good trade-off. The question is, can you do intermediate node routing without sacrificing privacy? That is a question that is still to be resolved. There is a lot of research going on in that. It is a very rapidly evolving sphere, and I think there will be a lot more new things happening there. But Lightning Network, as a set of specifications, does not prevent you from using any routing algorithm you want for your node, or multiple routing algorithms where you can choose which one you want to use for any single payment, or you could even mix and match and find routes for your payments through different algorithms simultaneously, and choose the best result. Nothing prevents you from doing that because of the abstraction between layers. That is a good thing. Johnny asks, from what I first heard about Lightning Network last year until now, it seems to be ahead of schedule. I was not expecting a live network at this point of the year. Am I way off? What is next for Lightning Network? Is there anything non-technical but enthusiastic users can do to support and participate, besides downloading a wallet and buying a few stickers? Johnny, you are not wrong. It is really funny how in this space people are eager and frustrated with the slow pace of development, when we have this amazing pace of development, where these technologies are rolling out, and the rate of innovation is increasing itself at an exponential pace. Lightning Network did progress much faster. This was just a paper in 2014, the first white paper that was written. To go from a paper to a full implementation of a network within just under four years is really fast. In the area of cryptography, we have never seen this before. The only time we started seeing that rate of development in cryptography was because of cryptocurrencies. This is not an easy space in which to make advancements and innovation, because you have money on the table. If you get it wrong, people will lose money. You are not the only one who is surprised to see a live network at this stage of development. Most of the developers in the Lightning Network were surprised to see a live network. It mostly happened against their direct advice and wishes, because they didn't feel it was ready for mainstream production use. They were dragged reluctantly, kicking and screaming into supporting a main network. In the end, I think that is probably a good thing. Some people who are willing to take extra risk and to risk money and know that they could lose it by messing up... the configuration of their Lightning node or because of inadvertent problems and bugs that hadn't been discovered, or basically be able to do nothing with it because it didn't quite work, those people were able to push the state of the network much further and do a lot of interoperability testing under real-world scenarios. What can a new user do? Setting up a wallet and buying stickers is amazing right now. It is incredibly helpful, because you are going to run into problems. When you run into problems, if you document these and help others, you write about them and maybe even submit an issue bug report to the software developers who are working on these systems. I have submitted two or three issues so far and done a couple of pull requests on both L&D and C Lightning, in order to uncover small bugs and problems with interoperability. Why? Because I started using these technologies to buy stickers as silly as that may sound. I have an even sillier one for you. How about spending one Satoshi to change one pixel on this graffiti wall? Again, it is like a pointless application right now, but it is getting people engaged by the hundreds who are testing all kinds of combinations. They are stress testing the system, they are testing interoperability between the various clients and servers. They are testing the routing of payment channels, the layout of the network, and its connectivity. In the process, they are discovering bugs, lots of bugs, and these bugs are getting fixed. This is great. In fact, it is a great contribution. Yes, just download the wallet and start trying to use it. You will run into problems. You will figure out that some things are not named correctly, they are not displayed correctly, they are confusing to new users. You might find some problems with the protocol in making your payments. Submit a bug report, help the developers make this better, and give them your fresh perspective. You are seeing this stuff for the first time. If you see something and it is confusing, that is because it is written in a language by developers, who have been so deeply enmeshed in this that they cannot even see that it is confusing. Your fresh perspective, telling them, this is confusing, I don't understand why this is happening, is going to help them make better user interfaces. It is going to help them figure out bugs that they may not have anticipated or found until now. Trust me, the area is rich for bug reports. There is a lot happening there. Yes, it is moving very fast. Things are getting better every day. You can all participate and help make it better.


Hello. Good afternoon. So it's my pleasure to introduce the keynote today. I'm Dominik from Dropsolid and we proud sponsor, Diamond sponsor, 4th time. Yeah, thank you. We bring to you this year the most open digital experience platform. And Drees was already talking in his keynote this morning about how important it is to keep control of the content, the code, and also the data. And since Drupal is also expanding, it's more than a digital experience. It's a digital experience platform. It also branches out to older applications like Matic, Unomi, Marketing Automation. And there's also open variants of this too. And if you believe just like us that it's important that you keep this content, this code, this data secure under your control, then I think it's worth looking at this. We're at boot 31, so my colleagues will definitely be happy to give you a demo. And then this brings me to our speaker. Our speaker, Tavi Kotka, is one of the first CIOs in the world of a country. So in fact, Estonia was the first country in the world who had a CIO. He's an engineer at heart and he also runs several startups as an angel investor. He has a thing or two to tell us about how digital societies these days are evolving. So I give it up for Tavi. I promised you, I went to the bar yesterday in Brak to have a beer and obviously all the bars were full of Truple engineers. So I asked if I can make a picture with some of you and I got this acceptance and I promised that I will put you on stage. Please! I think you are here, at this one of you. Obviously no ladies. But thanks for having me here today. I truly would like to share some of the background, what happens in different regions, in different countries with their goal to build a proper digital society, what it gives back and why everybody should do it and why can't they do that. I mean, lots of you are actually developing for the governments. Estonia all major government portals or websites are actually run on Truple. So we have the proud users. But yeah, very quickly, like I said, I'm an engineer. I have a master degree in software engineering and information technology. I've built up several companies, software engineering companies and then was hired by the government. Why? Because when you have a significant share and then you sell your shares in the company, you get this non-competition thing. You can't compete and Estonia is so small. It's only 1.3 million people. So we all relatives. So we all meet each other in funerals and weddings. So the government noticed that, oh, that guy is unemployed. So they offered me a job. Obviously, I said no. Because if you're 33 and perfectly healthy, you don't work for the government. But they were very persuasive and in the end of the day, I said, okay, I have two conditions. Like one thing, you support any kind of reform we do. Doesn't matter how crazy it is. Full political support. Second, I need the parking space behind the government building. Because it was in old town, like in Prague, like there's nowhere to park. So I need the space. And to be honest, it was harder to get the parking spot. It's funny. I mean, very quick background. Estonia and Finland are like almost same age. So Finland became republic two months before Estonia. That's where the big brother and young brother thing comes from. So we always have to look up to Finland. Because they are North. If you're in front of the map, you look north.  So we look up to Finland. But our development was stopped by Soviet Union in 1940. And we got back over independence in 1991. So basically now 31 years ago. And if you compare all those previous Soviet Union republics, I can proudly say that Estonia is most developed. Our average salary is 30%, 30%. 30% higher than the second best. All of those. We are the best in Europe at the moment in education. One of the best in healthcare. And we always ask ourselves the question, like, what's the reason? Why? I mean, everybody had the same starting point. And we are not in the middle of the center of Europe. We are in the nowhere. It's the same latitude as Alaska. So it's like, you saw the weather. I mean, like, almost same like in Finland. But and our answer is it's a digital society. The way how country was built up in both sectors, in private sector and government sector, how they jointly have used technology and push this government, the country to the new future, more healthy future. So that has been over Bodo. You need to create pain to make change happen. And the Estonian pain was that when you broke apart from Soviet Union, you basically have nothing. You have zero. So you don't have any economy.  I can promise you have lived that. So none of my generation guys can say that, like my entrepreneurial father said, there's doesn't exist this kind of sentence because there wasn't any entrepreneurship in Soviet Union. So we had to like figure it out and develop like all by ourselves. And also Estonia is tiny people wide, but we are huge land wise. So we are land wise. We are bigger than Belgium or Switzerland.  So there's not enough people to serve other people. So there was a push like please use technology, please use self service like and it was way before smartphones. So it started in 1990s. The first wave was I think 2000. And now the second wave is after 2010. So that was our pain. And it's interesting. If you have political support, you actually can build digital society as an engine. And I mean you are engineers. You understand that like it doesn't matter if I'm building a healthcare system or government system or like a bank system or some kind of warehouse. They're all the same. I mean, yeah, some of like, let's say we have a table of persons or table of patients or table of citizens. But when we look at the attributes like it's still surname, surname, birth date, address, what services we are providing, are they paying, are they paid full or not. So in the end of day, they're all the same. So and it's like, I always argue when people think today, I think I actually consider China to be the most advanced digital society, not even a state in your Finland. It is China. The Chinese system or the Swedish system. They don't, like, they're almost the same.  And let's say Estonia is 1000 times smaller. So let's say in the banking system in China includes all the functionalities you can buy, you can borrow money, you can do the payments, etc. But Estonia has a 1000 smaller country, like we can only look at our balance sheet. So the size doesn't matter. Like, the small country needs the same functionalities as the large country. And so the same goes with healthcare system, education, etc. It's not the way that in China you have all the functionalities and in Estonia in healthcare it's their patient registration and the second step is symmetry. Because it's not just small. So all the countries need to build the systems in the same way. And private sector has understood that, like, so all the reforms what we have seen from mainframes to nowadays, from, like, huge licenses to open source, etc. It all has happened in private sector, but not in government. And it's actually simple playbook, like how to create this society. And I will stop in some of them where I see where the whole world, the world world, like most of the countries are actually stuck. So very simple basic thing. For example, the child is born in the hospital.  Let's have this use case.  And then, like, like, somehow, like, support money, like, in the end of the, if you go to the social ministry to have another application, you get the money. So instead of having a society that works this way, that child was born in the hospital. So the hospital registers in the system, new child to this mother. No, father, that comes later. Just mother, because that's technically proven. So this child was born. So then the request automatically from the hospital system goes to the government population registry stating there's a newborn. Please issue me unique identifier. Population registry issues a new identifier. So and on the same time, when the hospital now has full profile, the population registry also calls the Ministry of Social Affairs that this lady had a child. This is a system to system, fully automated. So social ministry should now pay or say that okay, you have to have this amount of child support money. But this is dependent how much money the mother earned before. It's a seller issue. So how can we get that information? Tax and custom. What is your information about the lady? Okay, coming back to the calculations. Now sending, but the payments are done by Minister of Finance. So you have to work with Minister of Finance to get the payments out. And now like this kind of simple use case that seems so smooth. I think exist in not more than five countries in the world. And you asked me like why? I mean, like, it should be super simple to build that. I mean, like, what's the question? Easy as hell, right? One of the reasons is here. So why countries can't reach the proper digital society for the future? This is my unique identifier. If there are any Indians here, this is my odd hard number. So in many countries, you have a social security ID. But in most countries, you only can use it for taxes or in healthcare. But this is secret for private sector. So how can I connect my private sector data or databases with my government databases, if you don't use the same unique identifier about the person? So John Smith in one table and John Smith in another table is not the same John Smith. Okay, let's add an address. You all know it doesn't work this way. And like, you're laughing. But this has been a political decision for basically all English actually countries. You can't connect data in this way in Germany, you can't connect data in this way in UK, you can't connect data in US, in Canada, Australia. In India was slightly prohibited, but now they, I think they're getting it back to the right track. But you can in China and in Nordics and East Europe. So there are countries who have this basic standard issue. Think about that you're building a customer system and like customer ID is not allowed.  But in most countries in the world, that's the main problem. And if you don't solve that, and it's a political issue, if you don't solve that, you can't basically start the changing data between private sector and government sector because you don't see it in the same way. Boom. So all those countries who don't have that system, they already have a huge obstacle, they can't move further. So another thing, like, even if you solve that, the next question is that, okay, I can connect databases, but like, what else like countries can do to basically move fast forward to that future. One of the issues that is still very purely solved in the world is identity. How can I be sure that behind the device is exactly that person? How much you trust Google identity? Should I be able to transfer, I don't know, 100 million with Google identity? No. Or yes. Or like from the money laundering perspective. No. That, okay, the perspective can be different. So on this screen, what you see here is that we figured out that instead of every bank building their own identity, instead of every telecom building their own identity, instead of every portal site building their own identity, what if we create the legal framework, that if your identity system is according to that legal framework, like, you can basically, like, the government that proves that yes, behind that device is particularly that person. I mean, easy to say. So basically, we force people to go and show themselves to police and get this national ID card. You have to go and you have to get it. So it was mandatory. That's actually very, we copied this from Finns, our older brother. This is 100% the same card what Finland has. With the one different, very small difference. We actually made it work, right? Yeah, no. So and we added and how we made it work was a carrot and stick always. Okay, if you come from Soviet Union, the stick is more works better. So the black line represents the adoption but like the people going and taking the ID card. So everybody had to have by law an ID card. You see it 2008 to 2009, like almost the whole society had a national ID card. You see this usage, usage is the blue line. And that difference is called CIO nightmare. Because like, what do you think, do they actually love you during this problem, this, this period? I mean, nine years? Why we need this plastic? Do you know how much money we spend on this? Like, it's not even a good plastic to scratch an ice from the car window.  And it's a chicken neck problem, like that you would see in your life every day. Like so, you just like sit there and say, wait, it will come. Year later, wait, it will come. Wait. And like, then you say change the CIOs. So in the end of the day, somebody will be the champion. And that has been a problem for many countries. For example, Australia has tried twice to implement national ID failed. Because the next, I mean, the cycle is longer than four years. So if there's a new prime minister here, it will instantly kill the project and say that the previous one was monkey, right? So but yeah, but that's the perfect thing. If you are in Estonia, small, just like Saudi from the Soviet Union, etc. You don't have money. The project is too big to fail. So the ID cards cost us so much that we couldn't cancel it. Because we knew that we don't have money for the next one. Yeah, so I think you want to listen to that in in in triple conference. Estonia, we have like, heavy and proud supporters of any open source and like, any free stuff. There is no McKinsey and or Accenture in Estonia. Not because they don't know how to do stuff, they don't, but like, we don't have money. And they they only follow the money. So the next thing you do and need to do, like when you have this unique identifiers, what is very important is to solve the data exchange issue. And again, like China is number one here in, in, obviously, it means that you should put push all the systems to work and talk with each other. So this is a snapshot of Estonian government. Databases, let's call it this way, actually, not there's a business applications plus databases. So bigger green dots are more used, small green dots are less used. All the black lines are actual API's between the between the registries. Obviously, it's not just simple API's, there is a proper infrastructure between that. We call it X road. But the beauty of this is that if you do it correctly, I mean, let's say in UK, you have a ministry. And if your ministry doesn't communicate with other parties, you need to gather all information you need for your services from the citizens. And you need to store them. So the passport information, for example, may lie in this ministry, in that ministry, in the third ministry and fourth ministry. So how many times you need to protect the passport information, at least four times? If one of those four is doing large a job, like, what's the value of the rest doing the great job? So it's a broken system by heart. In Australia, like we use the method where there's a rule, the data can be asked from the citizen only once. So the same data cannot be in two different locations. So if the passport data needs to be asked, you send a request using the unique identifier from the population registry and you pulled information. And it's there. And that's how it should work. And it truly works, like, already 20 years. And funny, like, it looks like a privacy concern. But and we get the privacy. But it's also a huge helper in cyber attacks. So we had the first cyber war in human history. It was after 2007. It was in 2007, between Russia and Estonia, where they tried to hack us and attack us heavily. The maximum damage was one bank system was down for one hour and 30 minutes. And they couldn't take it down because of this picture. So instead of hacking one system and getting it all, even if you hack one system and get inside to get the full picture of data set, you need to hack another one. But they are built all in different ways, using different technologies. So it's theoretically possible to hack it and take it down. But it's very expensive. And this model seems to be working. At least we have survived all the other attacks during the last 15 years from the first one. Privacy. If everything is connected, then you have a problem, right? So how can you take away the problem of the privacy?  Please raise your hand if you think that privacy is a concern in Estonia. Or if you see this as a concern. Yeah. Okay. I should fast forward with two smart people. The privacy is a concern. But it's interesting, okay, social outcome. If you give people a chance to see who has looked their data, this is enough, just knowing that the possibility exists is enough to take down all the privacy issues. So you think that like your systems in your country are private. Can you raise your hand if you know who has accessed your medical record during last 12 months? You truly know who accessed. Big, big, big hand up there. All Estonians? Yeah, someone. Okay. I quickly, like 10 I read from the audience. So if you don't know that, if it's on paper or in a hospital system, who protects your privacy? If any nurse can go and open you and read you, who protects your privacy? Compared with the system that like we use that you go in, you see that, okay, this hospital, this doctor, this hospital, this nurse, this hospital, that third person, or this policeman, etc. Why this policeman? Pardon, my mistake. So if you have built this kind of issues, like solutions, like people calm down, they don't see privacy as a concern anymore. Actually, they feel the privacy is more protected. Because they can control it. They can ask questions. And if hospital cannot answer, the doctor gets fired instantly. If the information is forwarded to the third person that's a journalist, jail, start packing. It's up to the judge if you go for one year or two years, but you are going. We do a couple of public hangings. And like, truly starts to work. Hangings, I mean, like not actually hanging, but like putting in jail. So this works. So you can pass this or a problem. And, okay, another thing, funny thing, who believes that voting over the internet, not the machines in the corner type of thing, like in US, but voting at home from your computer is actually possible. If you believe in that, please raise your hand. Why don't you do it? Trust. I mean, like, but you trusted it. You said it's okay. Why can't you do it? So we started from 2005. Because everybody has a digital identity, like proven by the government, guaranteed by the government, if you use that identity or any like product like built on top of that, basically core identity that goes through the audits, like, but I mean, the machine says it's you behind the computer. Only you know the pins. Like, only you have the face. Easy. I mean, like, yeah, obviously, I know that there's another country who just issued the possibility to do internet voting. But I mean, voting doesn't matter that kind in that country anyway. So, so I definitely doesn't work in certain types of countries. But but you can actually see people like it. I mean, it's a little data. The fresh one is 50 50 now. So half of the people are going physically to the voting stations, and half goes and vote over the internet, which is the best proof that if you have proper tools, and the whole the private sector together with government sector has built this proper trust in society, you actually can advance very rapidly. And now I tell you where you can advance or like, what's what's that like fancy stuff we have done, or we believe that will happen. Yeah, so we go for a couple of them. Governments understand one thing per se, and it's taxes. So how to get the government budget full? I mean, that question is not arguable. Like, we can argue like, on privacy concerned, or like, should we do a voting or not? We can argue that kind of thing. But like, the money needs to get into the government treasure. So any ideas in that field? How can we get more? How can we get like, less fraud? Bring. So we had a huge problem with VAT frauds. So I mean, companies do business. And there's no chance that any tax authority except us, we are afraid of. Even if you're not the US citizen, I'm still afraid of. So like, there's no chance that you can control the whole economy. It's impossible. Like, you go into the company say, okay, give me your filings. And then you give them and like, now we go through them. And then, oh, there's a link. Give me your filings like, let's go through them. We have later discovered that most, or say, difficult cases we have with tax fraud actually had more than 30 these kinds of links. So even if we physically would start tracing particular deal, we would end up after five years with the right kind. So it's impossible task. Or you work with society. And that's an interesting thing. Like, where society believes that digital tools actually help, they come and help. And I think, like helping the society is one of the troupes core values like so. So what I mean by this. So the head of taxing custom came to my office and said that we are losing 2% of government budget, 2% of government budget every year because of VAT frauds. What can we do? And I know, like, what you have tried, okay, we hired more and more auditors. So we sent more and more auditors to the companies. But like, we are basically capable to control maximum four up to 5% of the deals. So it's impossible, even in a small country like Estonia, impossible task. So yeah, we get a couple of guys, but the restaurant free. Okay. And the idea was that, but believe, like we ask companies to give data to the government, all their business secrets for free. So what if in every month, you declare with whom you actually had business? Okay, let's say I sold you something in something worth 2000 euros. And we both report now, in a certain date, they report to the government that you say that you bought from me, I said I sold to you, and the robot on the government side later, like next month sees off, there's a match, like you declare this way, the other guy that way, there's a match, like should like, vt should come from this guy, and we should give vt back to that lady. So it works. How the hell are we gonna say to the people that please give me all the names with whom you are doing business and in which amounts? Insane. That's the beauty. When the society actually starts to trust the private sector working to the government, it wasn't an issue at all. The fact as a nation, we are losing like 2% of government budget every year because of the cheaters. I mean, if you get rid of cheaters, we get more equal markets, it's better business, it's better business environment for everybody. And that was enough. So the I mean, the whole law and implementation less than a year. And the number started to improve before the deadline, because like everybody understood that like, now when they actually start controlling those transactions, I mean, now it's works this way that if I declare I sold and you don't declare that you bought, they will come after you. Like the guy said, like you sold to you, but you haven't reported like why. So the robot comes after one deal. And it can be fully automated. So you basically can fully control like, like if the deal happened or not. So the taxing custom used to have 4500 people, I know it's small in your scale, but in the stone, it's huge. Like one of the largest enterprises. Now it's 1200. So 70% decrease in government. You never hear that government. Obviously, the overall government costs have went up. And those are the amount of people. But taxes are taxes are lower. So and it also gives you like having this kind of information. And you can actually can start giving back that information to the market. So you see your company that okay, in your field of business, there are 2500 companies, you are performing in a PSE upper 30%. Like an average salary in your in those companies is this that the third thing, the export amounts are this that the third thing. Basically, you can full understanding like, how you personally perform against the market, particularly in your area. And like a funny thing is that like, we have so much data that could be useful. And that's one of the problems of the future digital society is that you don't have enough smart people to ask right questions. I mean, what should the church like how the fifth year curriculum like the curriculum that the person had in the fifth grade, how this affects your future salary. I mean, this challenge could be accepted. And because we have data, and everything is connected, we could solve it. But not enough smart people to understand that. So you actually go there step by step. But what is interesting is that society is willing to give data, if they want, health care. The fact that you can go to any doctor or pharmacy with no papers and like, not starting let's say, lady have you had measles, like or what's your medical history? I mean, what's the system like, like, it's all there. I mean, it's long. There was also one funky disease I my friend, my my friend caught in Thailand. This is hidden now. You can hide data. Like the say, for example, abortion is usually hide by the lady. So any doctor cannot see that but statistically, it's still there. So you can hide data. That's the true true GDPR, you actually can control it. And it has been in Scandinavia, it has been in place before GDPR was introduced in Europe. But having this connectivity gives you a chance that you health care is not local anymore. So countries have monopolized certain areas, education, health care, business environment.  I can get an MIT degree nowadays without leaving country, right? So we know that like, not all the degrees, but certain type of degree I could get from MIT, even though it's in US. Internet courses works. I mean, we have seen that. Cool. Super cool. Health care. It's not a secret that like, like Indian health care is getting better, better, and like, like, quite significant amount of operations, like hard operations that usually we had done in US, now it's done in India. Normal. I mean, if I could get the service that is equally good, or even better, with a way lower price, like people will follow the money. Right? So health care still leaves most countries and monopoly of the government. But if you think about it, I mean, we pay 20% of our salaries for health care. We have the equal health care system that everybody gets equal health care, but like, you have to pay 20% from your salary. Huge compared to, for example, personal health care insurance. I mean, Obamacare was peanuts with like, compared with the money that Nordic people are paying for the health care. So what if people start to say that, okay, I will buy the basic health care from my own country. But the more difficult ones, I let insurance cover it. And I do it outside of the country. Because I can try it. Just to remind, let's keep it in mind. So another was like the education. So if, if schools are better in other countries, than, than in my country, or they provide like different type of outcome that I truly liked, I can't have it now. I mean, we can move with the family or like, we can take the courses or like, I can move the country where the education is better. But what happens then with universities in your country? And okay, we are currently, we only talk about universities because it's tangible, we understand it. But think about it like if, if, let's say, you understand that if you put your child in that particular, I don't know, US school, in some states, like the outcomes are like, the outcome is way better because like the way how they interact and the children, like how they interact, like all the ones from the parents that you like. So there's no like border type of thing anymore. And this gets me to one of my, I think most known challenges. I worked the CIO works in Minister of Economy. So and the Minister of Economy is basically only Minister in every country who is concerned about earning money, not just spending. So and if you come from private sector and you are an entrepreneur, like, so you're in the Minister of Economy. And your main goal is to increase the wealth of your nation. Okay, how can I do that? I mean, let's think in business terms. If I grew, if I want to get the better and bigger company, I need more revenue, I need more profit. Okay, for the better profit. What can I do? Profit means revenue minus cost. Okay, I can cut cost. But cost can be cut only to a certain extent. Like, there's a point where like, you can't cut cost anymore. But with the revenue, I mean, sky is the limit. Just figure it out how to get the revenue to. Okay, how can we get it? So who creates revenue for countries? People. We say people, not citizens, because like, they're also like, not citizens, people who contribute to your economy. So basically, we need more people. Easy. So I went to my wife. And they said, like, I have this 10 million challenge now. Let me remind you, Estonia is 1.3. And why 10 million? Because Sweden is 9.6. And you want it to be better. That's why 10, like, okay, so I went to my wife saying, I have an idea. We need to grow our economy. So let's go to 10 million. We have four children. Yeah.  This isn't this investment, it's just a liability. No payback. More cost.  I mean, I envy Egypt. Like, Egypt pops out one Estonian every year. They increase their population 1.5 million every year. Like, that would be fun. Not in Estonia. So, yeah, back then, I had three of them now I have four. Cutie. So it doesn't work. But like, who says?  Like, US is extremely, like, so good in attracting talent and then getting that talent to today country. There's a problem. We didn't let it do the Alaska.  Except, except me. I mean, we used to be used to this, but okay, we have huge hopes on climate change. So yes, there are very bad things with climate change. But for couple of countries, it's still good. Yeah. We don't brag about this kind of stuff. But like this summer, I know that the UK was burning and the rest but like, come to Estonia. Anyways, but like, if they don't come to come, but I mean, like, we have fully digital society, which means that we are actually capable to serve our diaspora all over the world. If Estonia lives in Singapore, he or she can run like he has digital identity, all the service online, like you can run your company from Singapore. If the elections like just open your computer elect, like you don't have to travel anywhere like so, you can sign all the contracts in digitally, etc. Like we all do that. It's all accepted. All the courts are accepting those documents, etc. It's like, we can serve students all around the world. Why only students? So that, um, what if we create digital citizenship without traveling great because we are part of Schengen, so we just can't open up the door that you fill the application, you become an e-resident. I mean, we would be okay because they don't stay in our country because it's so bad because of the weather. So they go to Germany, but like, we still get the customer. Doesn't work. But digital citizenship without voting right, and without traveling. Access to European market. Great idea. Absolutely. Fantastic idea. Like Brazilians, like Turkish, Indians, they all will start accessing European market for us. They do an application, the police reviews, proper procedure, like if you're in a tourist name list, you can't, but like if you're good, please, you open instantly a company from distance, you run it inside EU, like fantastic, fantastic plan. 70% of our residents are from EU. What? Germans? Let me remind you. You are in EU. By the way, you are the EU. So why the hell do you need a student in residency? I mean, like, like access to the market, like everything is there. Product market fit. Running a solo entrepreneurial company in Germany costs you like eight up to 10,000 euro a year. Instead of fully digital company costs you fraction, like less than 10,000 a year. If you if you want it fully automated, so you actually buy the services from the companies. If you do it by yourself, zero, no cost.  So you don't pay taxes to us. So and you can use your German bank account, you don't have to use our bank account. And seems to be the progress is so hurdle, a huge hurdle for the people that just to get rid of that, they're willing to move their company to another location. This is not nothing new for something new. Where is the Apple company corporate it? Where is Coca Cola corporate it? Deliver. They all deliver companies. So that was already invented in 1918, 96, I think, 94. So this kind of thinking is more than 130 years old. So nothing new. And it works. There's a problem. I promised them 10 million. There is at the moment, 90, 94,000 year residence. So but I promised it by 2025. So we have still three years. And there can be exponential growth, like your hockey stick, obviously. Now you can't.  Instead of saying, you can apply for a state and digital citizenship. It's not the citizenship. Like, if you can't use legally that word, you should use a word called residency. How many people in the world understand what is a residency? Maybe they understand tax residency, but what is the residency?  And you get the project, like, I don't play them. Because even though I don't have 10, I still have good enough. Our population is 1.3 million. 635,000 approximately are the working age people. So we have increased the working age people amount significantly, like in like, tens of percentages, which is still like, yeah, growth gets better. But it's good. Okay, let me come back to this. So, but what this experience experiment showed, and why it's important for the future development of digital societies, there are more and more now books written, for example, countries without borders. And like, can, let's say, can I be a German citizen, but I cannot run my company from another country? Yes, proven. Okay, as Tony is so small, that, politically, it's quite easy to kill us on EU level. So if we come out with a reform that everybody believes, for example, we have pushed a digital signature, I think more than 15 years in EU commission, like still not happening in EU in a proper way. It's very easy to kill us. Let's say if this comes truly big, the other countries will find a method to just smash it. But what now, what if somebody who's already big, does it? I don't know. Like India, can you screw with them? They don't care. I mean, they can handle it. And it doesn't mean that like, you have to serve like Europeans, like there are many countries around India that would love to, like have access to the market and work in the market. India is advancing in the digital field so rapidly that it's enormous. Like fantastic. Total enemy, there's reforms. And I think about it like, if healthcare is location independent, education is location independent, to education location, business is location independent. Who needs location? So you can start creating total different type of communities. And also those kind of communities like where, let's say Silicon Valley dreams about that, what if we, I mean, what if we create our own country? I mean, seems to be impossible dream, but what you need for a country? It used to be land. But there is actually a member in United Nations that doesn't have land. It's a homework like to figure out like which country it is. But I mean, what if all the people create their own like, community is so strong, so big. I mean, they always like one of the examples we use is like Jews, before the country of Israel was born. They were in St. Petersburg in Moscow in New York, Jews were everywhere. They survived as a nation, even though they bought services from different countries. So the same here, like, if the society, some kind of ecosystem becomes so strong, that they would want to be independent in certain field, doesn't have to be everything.  So I stand.  And this brings to the very interesting challenge, or like thinking, what happens with businesses? I mean, Spotify is a great Swedish startup. Fantastic. We have very like one of the singers in Estonia, I truly love like a remarkable artist. I asked him like how much money he has got from Spotify during last seven years. I mean, he has uploaded his music there like, and he said during last seven years, even though he's super popular in Estonia, from Spotify, he got 150 euros. Not 150,000, but 150 euros. So every day, 60,000 songs are uploaded to Spotify, 60,000 songs are uploaded to Spotify. And Edgier only gets money.  I mean, for the most, for the 99.9% of musicians in the world, Spotify is not an income. They can't get money from there. It's broken. But what's the alternative? Apple music? Same. There's no alternatives. Like, just have to live that streaming is not the business for artists. Okay. Booking.com. Love it. I mean, so simple to book like your next department or hotel. Love it. They dig 30% of every booking. If you add government tax on top of that, which is like income tax like 20%, like how much money the owner keeps? So the question is like, like those models where super smart people have done incredible job. And he, I mean, they take the figma exit now, they build a great tool, they exited with 20 billion. And they said in their statement that it was all because of community, because you helped us to develop this tool to the absolutely perfect. And that's why Adobe app ordered with 20 billion. Thank you. How much you get? Go back to the community. There's a barankas. Zero.  I mean, capitalism is good. I love capitalism. Like, and I already said, socialism bad. Socialism doesn't work. The question is like, is there something? Is there something on top of that? Can we mix capitalism with socialism somehow? I mean, what if figma people would actually gave from that 20 billion to get that with investors, like figma founders and investor and employees? What if they actually would give 2 billion to the community that actually helped? I mean, if you have 120 million, or you have 100 million, what's the difference? Right? What if all the artists who doesn't benefit from Spotify actually take away their music from there and only keep a couple of singles. They make the best songs. Because like, from every artist, we love a couple of songs. And I will keep them. So you love my music, I will keep all my favorite ones are there. But all everything else, no way. Because like, why should they keep it there? Because I got 150 euros for 7 years. What if everybody does that? How it affects Spotify? What if like booking.com is not used anymore by the hotel owners, and they actually form their own booking.com also doesn't work, has been tried. Doesn't work because if you're the only two community based business, there are several examples already in taxi industry, etc. where like, somebody needs to take the responsibility. There has to be a founder or founding team, something that basically takes a risk. Because if you don't like it, you as a driver or you as a hotel, you can always move away. But like, somebody needs to take a risk. But you need to critical mass. So I believe that there are like, like other ways how future policies work. So for example, if you think this way, what if community would be your co-founder? They are, let's say, you have like two founding partners in Google, but the third one is community. So we all start with 30, 30, 30. I mean, make investors in and be all deluded, but community always is there. It's booked.  But it's booked. And if you do something good for the business, you get a piece of that. And that way you, the community owns out their fair share inside the company, inside the company. Different model, different way. And I think that's like one of the most interesting trends at the moment, that is not affected in any government, like public government system or unique identifiers or system talking each other. That the fact that the equity is still only shared between founders, investors and employees. Employees get options. And you can't basically hire in IT field without giving options anymore, right? So this model works. But to get any kind of business up and running, it doesn't matter how small you are. You need others. You need your community.  Like Bill Gates case, for example. Was it? Mother was in the IBM board, something. Okay, different story. Sign here. And think about it. Think about the things that if digital, like, it needs both sides. It needs private sector and government. If they work together, if they build the baseline in a proper way. And currently, I see this, there has been a proper way in my country, in China, in Singapore, China with a small thing. Like, in Estonia, the people control the data in China. Like the government controls the data. But this is just one parameter, you know, in IT terms, like, but systems are the same. So but if we do that, your competitive capability against next other countries is so much larger. The way how like, like, how can you improve your health care quality, how you could improve your education quality, and how can you keep taxes down? We don't have company income tax in Estonia, zero. Until you keep the money in the company, you don't have to pay tax. Nothing. Why? Because by OECD report, we had the best tax collectors in the world. So if everybody pays what needs to be paid and fairly, like, you don't have to add new taxes, we don't have to increase taxes. If you're efficient, yes, there will be a time where we have to do something. But at least last 31 years, we haven't had company tax, VAT tax, not VAT I have like the income tax. Interesting. And you can start develop new communities, small ones, or even countrywide. That was my speech about the future. Thank you. I understood there won't be any questions. So I don't know, even if I sit or not. There will be questions. So hi, everybody. I'm Janne. I got Tavi here and I'm glad that he actually delivered. So the I was thrilled about the about the session. And there's surprising many questions from the from the app. Or not maybe surprising because this tech conference. But is there any guys actually please don't go because it seems to be that we will have another group photo indent from the balcony to those this site. Like it was just told me by the organizers. Yes, so we will have a group photo when the questions and answers are over, then kind of turn around 180 degrees. And then the photo will be taken. So are there any live questions? This body has here. Let's have a mic. So first of all, thank you very much. Very interesting. I come from Iceland. And I think that we are one of these countries that are pretty far in in these terms. But what we are having in Iceland is issues with accessibility and being so you know, ready.  And how is this? Like, you know, if you think about the elderly people or the people who are have disabilities, they can't really use these things that we are just trying, you know, how is this in Estonia? And what's what are you trying to do there? Yeah, this is actually a question I always get when I do this kind of speech in Scandinavia, that always the first one. What about the elderlies? And it's sad to say, but Estonians have a very arrogant answer to this. What about them? We don't care. I mean, I don't get me wrong, we truly care. But the fact is that the thing that like, I mean, whoever has built IT systems, you always fail with your product or with your application, if you want to solve everybody's problem, right? So you have to do compromises. And one of the compromises you need to do whenever you introduce something totally new is that let's remove the extreme, let's call them extremes. So the fact, for example, that like mobile screen might be too small for elderly people doesn't mean that you shouldn't develop a service that fits for the mobile device. So our approach has always been and it has been proven successfully, that whenever we start with a new project, since the beginning, it's agreed, we only do the 80%. So we don't solve it for everybody.  And then they basically, I'll say, they accept it later. So for example, e voting in 2005 was some kind of hippie and youngster thing. Now elderly people are using e voting more than youngsters. Why?  I mean, every country has a problem that youngsters don't go to the voting. Like so, that's why I think the reason is but like, today we have studies that shows that like e voting is not this criminal, like so elderly people don't do that. They do even more. But you have to start with some groups and then move further. So that's your answer. Very good. Then there's a question from the audience that how to prevent the government becoming authoritarian and then abusing the system? Oh, yeah. Very good question. I don't know. I mean, like, we have seen so many countries being perfect and then also again falling back.  But again, it's a question like, what then you can actually say, digitalize and what you can't. Like, for example, like, if you have this kind of potential problem, like, forget the voting, but I don't know, Sweden or Finland or, or, or Norway or Iceland, you could do it. Because the values are different, like the way how the society is built is different. So yeah, everything doesn't fit for everybody, definitely. And I don't have to answer. I mean, if I would know the answer, I mean, would there be any war in Ukraine? I have a continuing question. And then we take the person there. So what do you think about if there would be a kill switch in the system, that if there would be a situation that the government, the democratic government is overthrown, then somebody could sort of reset the system?  Biggest cyber threat is people. So if you have insider, like, that's the one you it's hard to fight against. So again, like, if you have, like, I mean, what happened happens, what's the problem problem with killing switch is I wrote my PhD about data embassies, embassy of data. So because after Grammy events, you have to understand, like, how can we survive as a nation, even if the country is occupied? So what if the, I mean, it's done has been occupied every century since the beginning. We had the original original settlers. But every century, there has been like, sweets, Germans, German, Russians, no, things, but like poles and like others. Not yet. Yeah, not yet. Yeah. So for it's not for us, it's not a question if it's always a question when and if if your country is fully digital, you don't have paper fallback anymore. So how you protect those assets? So for example, one of the first reforms we did in 1992 was property form. So government restored the property situation what was before occupation. So any of your grandfather or grandmother, for example, had a farm before occupation, but the new power took it took it away. Then it was given back. You just had to prove that it was yours before that. But you have like old books and I can materials for this. Now if everything is digital, it's even better. Like data embassies are basically imagine like physical embassies in the world, you know that there's a US embassy in Prague and Swedish embassy here, etc. And now figure they think that in, let's say, one of the check data centers, there's an iron cage. And inside iron cage, the computers is actually estonian embassy. So nobody can enter that. And you have to protect it in the same way like you protect the US embassy, for example, here.  You know that this is temporary. And in future, you can restore it, even if it takes 100 years. Like, so that's, you have to have a fallback outside of the hands of the government. But if you want to read it like data embassies, yeah, articles about scientific articles about this are published. So please read. Okay. Thank you for your presentation. It was truly eye-opener for me. My only question was at the screenshot from the public social medical insurance interface that that you showed earlier with the family doctor name on the top left corner. Yeah. This one, my single question. Is this interface available in Estonian language as well? Yes. Okay. Probably you just switched the language for the screenshot to make us understand. Yeah. Okay. That's a nice gesture. I was just really curious that if it's translated to Estonian, probably. No, it's like, I don't know, it's if you log into there, you can choose either Estonian Russian or English as a language. So it's not Google Translator, it's official support. And sadly, it's not triple.   But what is important here is the managing access to your health data. That's super important thing. Most of us don't care. They just want to get treated.  Super cool. And if I if my friend, not me, but if my friend has a funky disease from Thailand, like your car, life goes on. Fantastic. Okay, next question. There's question from the from the app and then then we go back to the audience. So how does the Estonian government make money from these are in residence if they don't pay taxes? They still pay taxes, because, for example, if they hire a local employee, they pay taxes. If they do transactions that include VAT tax, they pay taxes. So there are like many ways how to get like income from the from the from the residence. So so it doesn't have to be like, like this tax haven't, it's not a tax haven't. So if you want tax haven't, like, go to Caribbean, like, so this is not tax haven't. This is about access and efficiency. Run your company with 10,000, run your company 1000. How many taxes you just saved? 9,000. But you still pay the same tax to the country. You anyway should pay the tax in Germany, but now you have 9,000 more. You see the benefit. Become an e-resident. Come to me, my people. So I have a question follow up to but this question because this is actually a problem we had in Iceland that elderly and disabled people were excluded from the electronic implementation. In order for them to be able to sign up, they need electronic ID. They have to apply to that themselves. And they cannot do that except with assistance, which created a barrier. So were you able to in Estonia to actually solve that problem and let them do it with assistance or with paper or just the regular way? Like, even though I would like to say yes, I have to say no. We were extremely hard with them. So for example, the fact that now the ID is mandatory, it was law with a certain date. So you have to obey the law. So I mean, obviously, they don't didn't get punished or anything like but like, I mean, like Estonia was so pure, poor, poor, poor that we couldn't afford this kind of debates. I mean, we either do it for the majority and keep the economy growing super fast, rapidly, or we just have these debates that like what if or how we can and I mean, that's the main excuse in Denmark and Sweden have always seen like so. So it was hard choice. So and hard choice was like, innovation comes through pain. That's one of our goals. Always innovation comes from pain. Somebody or I mean, E school, teachers hated it. I mean, like small numbers like we introduced E school in 2002. There wasn't any smartphones back then. Computers had like screens like this. You remember that time, right? So and now I used to have convenience, diary thing, I just write numbers and now you say that everything needs to be inside that machine that I cannot use because I'm 65 years old. Yes, I don't do that. Okay, you don't get paid. Okay, I do it. But it was like heavily criticized in media, etc. So it's like half a year period that basically the project manager and the minister needs to survive. Or die has happened. Next question. Yeah, hey, Ty, thank you very much. That was very interesting. So and my question is quite simple. So in Ukraine, we are using a kind of application where you're keeping all your documents or your passports, the driver's license, birth certificates, everything in one application called dia. And what about the story and ID? So does it somehow coincide with it or whatever? Could you specify on it? I have heard that they want to import import that software to sternum. I hate idea. I mean, it's what I mean, teach societies is not about documents anymore. It's only about information. So the fact I mean, like, like more and more countries now get rid of driving license. Okay, they don't get rid of them, but you don't have to carry them with you because the police has the information in the system. So I need driving license only when I'm outside of the country, because I need to rent a car or something, then I need that. But in Estonia, I never carry a driving license already more than 10 years. So why I need a passport, like inside European Union, traveling without the passport, we don't need the national ID card is enough. But I still have to show it. I don't know, in the border of UK. But like inside, we don't need that. We have Schengen and everything like so. So it's not about documents or keeping them inside of app or something. I actually hate everything. I mean, like having a medical record in your phone, or on your card, that was a German idea. And when the card is lost, the phone is lost. Okay, yeah, it's hard to hack the phone open. But like, why I mean, like, why can't be this way that whenever you need information, then you pull it until that it stays one location, one location only because if it's a multiple location, you need multiple security. Multiple security means higher cost.  Great. So you should do it this way. Final question. Do you think that this would be possible that we would see this kind of approach planet wide? And if yes, when? Which approach? This one? The government, the sort of the whole no, no, no. I mean, never happens in Europe.    Imagine any business doing business without customer ID. I sell you stuff. But the logistics doesn't know if the stock actually go to that guy or not. It's a miracle. And they don't want to change that. So during your lifetime. No, that doesn't change. But I believe in this, I think this will change. And you will see that. I mean, you are the proof of that. Like you are the part of triple community. You are also contributors. You already have have seen the benefit you have seen the future. The sad part is that triple doesn't make money for you like as a community, as a business. Yes, but as a community, that's different story. We will talk about it. Thank you, David. Thank you. Please turn around and look at the


I'm privileged to be here today. And this presents me with an opportunity because I come from a country who have seen enlargement on both ways of the sphere. Greece was lucky enough to be the first country of the Balkans who joined the European Union after a long time of dictatorship. And I belong to the generation that saw firsthand the transformation powers of enlargement. My country transformed completely in the years immediately before and after we joined the European Union. And since then, expanding the fruits, the benefits of enlargement to the other countries of the region became a steady goal of Greek foreign policy. The Thessaloniki agenda was the culmination of this policy. And I was again lucky enough to have worked for the preparation of the Thessaloniki meeting and the Thessaloniki agenda. And I remember the excitement and the high hopes attached with that. 10 years have passed, and it's easy to say that not enough has been done in the time since then. But we have to look back and see that quite a few things have been done also. The Western Balkans today is not the same place as it was in 2003, but some of the challenges they are faced with today are the same that the rest of Europe is faced with. When we speak about economic stabilization the Western Balkans, the words that come to my mind are jobs, growth, and reforms. And these are exactly the three same words that are common in the language used for European countries in economic crisis, like my own country. Of course, the context is different, and the tools to address these issues are different. But the goal is the same. And both us in the European Union and the countries aspiring to become members of the European Union have to face these three challenges. The key difference between them and us is political stability. And this is what the European Union offers. The political stability rule of law reforms in the judicial administration, public administration are the advantages, are the path that will help deal with the issue of jobs, growth, and reforms in a more substantive and a more efficient way. What's the role of the European Union in the framework of the enlargement process in order to assist the Western Balkan countries to face the economic difficulties of today? First and foremost is the process of harmonization with their key. Being in the context of stabilization and association process or the accession process itself, this process of harmonization with their key brings significant improvement in the business environment, which in turn attracts both local and foreign investors and enhance economic growth. Through interim agreements and SA agreements, enlargement countries also gain advantageous access to the EU markets, which also contributes to their economic development. Of course, the accession process can also benefit the Western Balkan countries in more intangible ways. Investors are attracted by the mere fact that enlargement countries have the increased potential to achieve long-term political and economic stability. One should never overlook this powerful perception, which enlargement countries owe to fully exploit by building political consensus on their reform agendas and by pushing forward with their implementation. There is no doubt that the most direct project-based means of promoting economic development during the accession process is through the IPA mechanism. All IPA components relate more or less directly to economic development, but the second and third components, namely cross-border cooperation and regional development, are key in this respect. They aim at achieving a sustainable economic, social and territorial development of border regions and at promoting investment in sectors like transport, environment, and economic cohesion, also preparing the future member states for the management of regional funds through the project-based approach. New funding schemes, as such as the blending mechanism propoded through the Western Balkans investment framework, constitute a significant improvement in funding projects. Funding strategic sectors for the economies of Western Balkan countries, such as transport, energy, the environment, and support to private sector, is a driver to growth. Of course, there is an additional means to promote long-term development through increased competitiveness in Western Balkan countries is their cooperation with the EU in adapting the objectives of the EU 2020 strategy to their needs and specific specificities. The EU has recognized the importance of working in tandem with the countries of the region in this important field and has supported the SE 2020 strategy, which is to be pursued regionally with the help of the RCC. And Mr. Zvilanovich will have more to say about that. Recent economic developments within the EU have been counteracting some of the benefits of the accession process in the Western Balkans. Nobody can deny that. The decrease in eurozone growth has created an unfavorable external environment for many Western Balkan countries, and this certainly affects the short-term economic and social outlook in the region. Furthermore, the EU's preoccupation with its own problems, and especially in the management of the debt crisis in the eurozone, threatens to negatively affect perceptions of enlargement both in the EU and in the enlargement countries. This can work, at least in some part, against the both multilayered contribution of the accession process to the development of the region. So the challenges that we're all faced, EU countries and enlargement countries, is how to balance the benefits against today's problems in the European Union and how perceptions affect the real goal and the real benefits, long-term benefits of proceeding with the enlargement. In order to sustain the contribution of the accession process to the economic development of candidate and potential candidate countries, it is important to focus on a number of important points. First, the EU should remain committed to its enlargement policy and continue to stress the importance of the accession process and of the key principles that govern it, including regional cooperation and good neighborly relations. The fair and rigorous implementation of the established conditionality is essential in this respect, including in order to strengthen public support for enlargement in all EU member states. This is a challenge to renew public support in EU member states, not because anybody will ever say that she is against enlargement. It is because the pressing priorities of the day push enlargement and lead in the back of the mind, and this should be fought against. At the same time, it is essential that the EU agenda constitute common political ground between all major political forces in Western Balkan countries. It is also key to reinforce the conviction in candidate and potential candidate countries that despite the economic crisis, which is mainly of global and systemic nature, the EU remains an attractive model and constitutes the only option for all our countries. Dealing with economic challenges of a volatile, globalized economy on one's own means is simply impossible. The EU remains highly adjustable to new circumstances and is bound to pull out of the crisis stronger and with more internal cohesion. So for the Western Balkan countries, there is only one way for the future, economic future and political. Both within the EU and in the Western Balkans, we should make sure that everyone understands what is at stake in the long run and act accordingly. The European project, the consolidation of peace, democracy, reconciliation, and security cannot be complete without the accession of the Western Balkans. Thinking of ways to help the countries in the region speed up necessary reforms and meet all relevant requirements is very much part of the process. Last, it is essential to maintain the level of investment in strategic sectors. New innovative financial mechanisms for funding infrastructure projects, such as Project 1, should be explored. Problems in strategic sectors such as transport, energy, and environment are of a cross-border nature and can only be solved through enhanced cooperation. Regional cooperation and interconnectivity in the Western Balkans are key elements for promoting sustainable growth and stability in the region. And in this context, they promote also understanding cooperation, a way to deal with problems, reconciliation, and above all coexistence. The Western Balkans has been a region that was hit a lot in history. Sometimes out of our own mistakes, sometimes out of external factors. In the last 10 years since the Saloniki, we've seen a rather stable era and a time when a lot of differences were ironed, maybe sometimes not in a final way, but still on the way to a final solution, which should help this process. And I think the Irish presidency, I deserve a lot of congratulations for organizing this conference and putting the issue of the launchmen back at the center of the agenda. The Greek presidency, this time, is going to follow the Irish one. And we're going to continue the work. Greece has always been the supporter and the pillar of the launchmen in the Western Balkans. We have proved that not only through political means declaration, but also through practical means. Greek investment in the Western Balkans had been a driving force for development. And even in the darkest hours, Greek companies never left the region because we're part of the region. And we have understood long time ago that we have only a common future. We cannot divide our future. And we're going to stay there and despite the economic crisis that my country is facing right now, I'm very happy to say that there has been no drop in the Greek investment in the Western Balkans. On the contrary, we have seen some more investment. And this is the most basic proof of the faith we have in the future of our neighbors. Thank you.


Hello fellow fragrance lovers, so let's see what this smells like. I'm so excited to be getting the LinterD intense from Givenchy. So I have the LinterD, the original one. I got a sample of it from the perfume shop, tried it, loved it, so I ordered the box set.  And when I ordered this one, imagine my surprise, I didn't even realize it, but it came with a little shimmer, I don't know, shimmer powder, yes some shimmer powder, which is like a nice goldie thing. So that's pretty awesome. I was just happy to buy it regardless of whether it came with a free gift anyway. But yeah, I am so super excited to finally be getting this. So I got a sample based off of one of my favorite perfume YouTube channels, 50 cents UK. And she was talking about this. So I got the sample from the perfume shop and I tried it, I absolutely loved it. I absolutely loved it. So it's got black pepper as a top note, which you get at the opening of this, there it is. So it gives it like a really zingy spiciness at the opening, but it doesn't last throughout. The middle notes are tuberose and orange blossom. And I have to say that it does the tuberose really, really well. It's not overwhelming or overpowery. So I found that my skin chemistry, it really enhances tuberose. It just really makes it go so you can sometimes be a little bit overwhelming. But on this one, it is that I love how it evolves and how it develops throughout the day. The base notes, it's got Madagascan vanilla, it's got some patchouli, it's got some vetiva. But the patchouli in this one, it's not as heavy as in other things like say the vanilla via bell or anything like that. I find that the patchouli is quite understated here and there's more of an emphasis on the vanilla. So I get the vanilla is very strong with this one compared to the original linter D. I would say that one of the biggest differences is that this one has got more of a vanilla focus. Like that's really been amplified. But it's really, really beautiful and you've got like, it's like a mask vanilla mix and the orange blossom really comes through. It's a creamy orange scent, if that makes sense like, but then you put in some vanilla in there but it's got a beautiful creaminess once you get past the spicy opening and every time I wear this, I feel yummy, I feel classy, it's such a beautiful fragrance. I have to say that on me, this last age is easily up to 11 hours. I still have it on me and I don't have to put nose to wrist in order to smell it. So for me, I score perfumes very highly based on that performance. I don't necessarily have the time to remember to come and spray stuff on. So I do like it when a perfume can last a long time and I don't have to look for it. This, it does that. So longevity on me is fantastic. The siage is beautiful because even my husband is kind of like, oh, I can spot that because now he helps me to test the perfume siage by telling me whether he thinks it's a close skin scent or he's like, oh, that's a beast mode. But yeah, this one is really, really good. It's such a beautiful fragrance and I felt that it was different enough to the original LinterD for me to actually get this. So with this one, actually, I find that I reach for this a lot more than I do the LinterD. So with the original LinterD, I do feel I have to be in a certain mode, like in a certain mood for it to appeal to me for me to want to wear it. Whereas I'm finding that I've got more occasions, more situations where I feel that this one is wearable, which surprised me because I kind of thought that the intense version of a perfume is supposed to be possibly less wearable than the original one. But this one, I love it. And also the bottle is beautiful. It's a black bottle with like the glasses on the outside. And then you've got the black lining on the inside and it's got that same Givenchy sign over there, very simple, very, very classy. So thanks again, 50 cents you gave. My bank isn't grateful to you, but I love this. I love this. It's such a great addition. And I can see myself wearing this even in early spring as well. I think that it could work. I'm also quite, I think it could also work in, in summer. Like during summer nights, I can see this kind of working. It smells beautiful. Unlike, say, the Givenchy Linter D, which for me, when I tried it, when I was wearing it, it was definitely winter, winter. At no point in my mind did it ever occur to me that I could wear this in any other season. Whereas this, I was kind of like, I think that you could work in summer. So, yeah, thank you so much for watching. Please like and subscribe. It really helps the channel and I appreciate that. I will be doing a lot more unboxings, a lot more perfume reviews, a lot more perfume holes and just general chat about perfumes. Until I see you next time. Bye.


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Hello, everyone, and welcome. This is Melissa Armo.  And I was motivated to do this today because I was a presenter at a webinar where they had a lot of speakers yesterday. And one of the people that was speaking prior to me was discussing moving averages and how you can buy in a pullback into moving averages and short into resistance in moving averages, which is really two different topics. But I want to talk briefly today just about buying in a pullback to moving averages. And the person was making it sound so like it was so easy to do that and make money, which is completely false. I mean, I actually was laughing out loud listening because I thought to myself, God, when I remember, when I started out 10 years ago, that when I first was learning about charts and candlesticks and technical analysis and moving averages, which I have here on my charts and I'll show you in a minute, that it all sounded so great. It all sounded like it made perfect sense to do that. And it all sounded amazing until I started to do it and realize that it didn't work even half the time. And I'm just going to briefly show you a few charts here to prove my point. But the fact is that you cannot just buy pullbacks in the moving averages in charts, even if they're in an uptrend. Even if you're buying a stock in an uptrend and expect that kind of trade or move or entry to work to profit. It is not that easy. If it was that easy, literally no one would ever lose money and every pullback into a moving average would hold. And no one would ever lose any money, which is not the case. But listening to the speaker, they made it sound so easy. And I think that is one of the reasons why people get frustrated with the trading educational system, with lots of the fact that there's lots of people out there, because they make it sound so easy, certain things in the way they talk. And it isn't that easy. What I do is analyze a chart. Like, I look at a chart. Like, here's Tesla. And I analyze a chart. And I can analyze any chart. Anything you can put anything that has a chart in it, I could read it and tell you what's, what trend it's in and where it's going. But anyways, we're not going to worry about that today. The point I want to make today is, though, that it is about looking to the chart and analyzing it. It is not just about simply looking at the moving averages, seeing in what direction they're pointing, or what direction the stock is in, which very often people get wrong in the trend. And then going along into a pullback and moving average is just, I mean, the person made it sound like it was so easy. And I just thought, oh my lanta, because 10 years ago I would have listened to a person like that and believed them. And in fact, when I started trading, I believed that it was that easy too. It's not. It's not that trading is hard, but I'm telling you it's not that easy to decide what to do. It's more complex. And that's why you have to learn it. And that's why I devised a method that looks at 26 things on a chart, which is a lot. It's not one or two moving averages. But I just want to do a simple example here just to prove my point. This is Tesla. And here's a chart of Tesla. I mean, here's the whole thing. You can look at it. Stock was up at Brandywaltime. Highs are almost touched it on that news. We had that spike when Elon Musk tweeted. And then ever since then, quite frankly, the stock has collapsed, okay? Doesn't look horrible here, but it's trading down the last few days. Anyways, I want to show you how the stock has not held any of these moving averages for the last few months. Even though the stock was in an uptrend back in here. Ran up, stock's at an uptrend. Ran up in here, came in, did not hold. If you bought this here on the 200 per moving average, it's a red line, or the 50 per moving average was this green line, the stock fell. It didn't go anywhere. Then it finally lifted around a couple of weeks later. Then guess what? It didn't go anywhere. Then it fell. Then it fell in here. Again, if you bought it on the 200 per moving average here, look where you are today. So you can't just buy stocks, even if they're in an uptrend on the moving averages into support and a pullback. It will not work consistently. It's not that it never works. It will work consistently. And I think that's where people get tripped up. Tell us one example. I'm gonna show you another example, the market. Because this is an example where if you had gone long the market into this pullback in here in the moving averages, you would be up. The market has run up ever since the beginning of July. So here's an example on it. And again, the spy is a spy. Spy's daily chart. This isn't an uptrend. If you had bought into this pullback here, we rallied. Into this pullback here, we rallied. Into this pullback here, we rallied. Into this pullback here, we rallied. Market's pulling back even today. If you buy this, it's probably gonna rally too and fall through higher. But that doesn't mean that it works consistently every time. But this is an example of one that did work. And I showed you Tesla, an example of one that didn't work. So it doesn't work consistently is my point. And I could show you a thousand examples where it worked and a thousand more than it didn't work. So it's too random is my point to rely on for taking risk where you would actually put your money on in the trade or any sizable amount of money on in the trade to take risk. It's just too, it's too unknown. It's not, it's too random. The odds are not in your favor. Put it that way. The fact that it sometimes works like it did here in the market has nothing to do with anything at all. Sometimes everything works. Sometimes something works that doesn't make any sense at all. Just like sometimes something doesn't work that works a lot. There's no 100% either way. But the point I'm trying to make is, well, how do you make money as a trader? Whether you swing trade or do options or day trade, you have to find something that consistently works more than it does not that you can predict so that you can do it. Because looking back after the fact, looking back now, it's easier to say, well, I could have gone on the market here, here, and here. Yeah, but did you? Did you do it? You probably didn't. You know what I'm saying? So you have to find a system that consistently works and yet on top of that, you have to be able to know where to get in before the move happens to get the money before it goes, before it works. You have to be able to predict it. That's something that I do. That's what I do. And it's not, it's nothing. Nothing at all to do with anything at all. With pullbacks and moving averages, it is not how I trade. It's not how I trade. I will never trade like that because it doesn't consistently work and you can't predict it. This very well could have come in here and failed. In fact, here is an example. This came in here in the 20-period moving average and failed and broke down in here. And this could have failed and broke down in here. And this could have failed and broke down in here. I'm telling you, and the markets too would have been in an uptrend, all right? You don't take entries that way. This person yesterday made it sound like that was, if you had listened to this person yesterday, you would have said, oh my God, I can make millions of dollars in the market. It's so easy. I see every pullback and I see every moving average and it all makes sense in the world. It does it. That is not how you can consistently make money or trade and it doesn't work all the time. It doesn't even work half the time. It doesn't work more than half the time but it works less than half the time. I don't even know what the odds are but it hardly works at all and I know because when I started trading 10 years ago, I heard the exact same stuff and it never fails to amaze me how when I listened to other people talk, how they make trading sound like it is just one or two things. Just do this one or two thing people say. Just this one or two thing here and you'll get every trade right or a lot of trades right, wrong. When I look at a chart, I'm focusing on one strategy, strategy is gaps. That's true. My focus is on one strategy but how I come to the conclusion to do the gap, whether it's the spy, whether it's Tesla, whether it's Facebook, whether it's anything and all, how I come to that conclusion to pick that one kick or symbol that day, that end on any given day where I do it. Whenever I call a trade, whenever I do anything, options, day trades, anything at all, how I pick that tick or symbol and how I predict that it's gonna go on work is because I'm looking at 26 things, not just one thing. It is not just about one thing and it's not just about two things and it is not just about indicators at all. You will never get it right or make any money consistently if you do that. The problem is that sometimes people make money going long and they pull back into supporting up trends and because it sometimes works, they think it works a lot. But why doesn't it work sometimes? Because it's not reliable.  And that's why you see these lines sometimes are pointing up, sometimes they're pointing down, sometimes they're wiggling and jiggling. You can't rely on them to trade. It's, oh, I can talk about this for an hour, for two, for days, weeks and years. But I'm telling you, traders so badly, more than anything else in the world, wish that they could just focus on one thing and just say every time it comes into the 20 per moving hours, you're gonna buy it and that I can wrap my head around.  Wrong, wrong, it's just false and wrong. And I don't know why people insist on having to look at things in such a way. I'm telling you right now, getting your head that learning how to read price is a skill set it takes looking at many, many, many, many, many, many things together. That's how you get the high odds in your favor. You wanna take the time to learn it like I have learned it to do my class, to know it, to get it, to understand it, comprehend it, to learn it because that's the way you're gonna make money. And once you learn it, then the money comes. And then you're in a place of knowing which is a lot different than a place of guessing. A place of knowing is different than guessing, okay? It's knowing, knowing I know that the market is higher. Period end of story, okay? The spy is 2300, I know that, okay? It's a lot different than guessing. Well, I think it's gonna go here.  So you gotta get into that place of knowing. And until you do, you won't understand what I mean unless this makes total sense, which hopefully it does. Anyways, have a good day, everyone. If you're interested in the Golden Gat course, email me at Melissa at thestockswish.com. Have a great day.


You need a financial advisor with the freedom to focus on your specific needs. Whatever your goals, Reid Potter can create a game plan tailored to you. Call Reid at 432-0777 at Pikeville, Kentucky to learn more. This Saturday, October 8th, Broken Trail and Pineapple Off-Road will be hosting its ride for kids ATV trail ride to help underprivileged kids and kids affected by the summer's floods. Wednesday, Mountain Top spoke with ride organizer Kristie Roberts about how you can join. In the past, they have done this Christmas dinner for underprivileged kids. But this year, they want to try to reach out and help some of the flood kids. But they buy them each a pair of shoes, a coat, two to three outfits and four to five toys. And then they have a dinner and have Santa and it's in, you know, like I said, December 17th. So just trying to help them fundraise before then. With a $25 fee, riders can enjoy hours on the trail and raise awareness to bring items to underprivileged kids. Roberts adds more information about the ride. October 8th, this Saturday at Mountain Medicine Pharmacy at MEDA, plenty of trailer parking available. The ride fee is $25 per buggy. It doesn't matter how many people you have in your side-by-side. Four-wheelers, dirt bikes are also welcome. It's not, you know, a very hard trail. Just be riding outlaw trails in Brushy and Martin County. The ride is October 8th. Registration begins at 9 a.m. with the ride beginning at 10 a.m. It all starts at Mountain Medicine located at 8857 MEDA Highway Suite 2 in Pikeville. For more information, you can call<PHONE_NUMBER>. For Mountain Top News, I'm Drill Korjul.