Let me let me just be curtail the excitement for a moment. Okay, we are live now welcome everybody to the. February 17th meeting of the community safety working group. I'm going to call this meeting to order at 533 p.m. You're on the 17th. I think someone is not muted. So it's causing a lot of. Getting some feedback. Yeah, tomorrow. Right. So the vaccine has not arrived in time and we are asking if we can honor that appointment. Can you all hear that something about. Yeah, I do hear it now. Let me go. I will correct this for a minute. Would all of us be so kind as to. Turn. Turn off my sound for a moment. Okay. Okay. You can turn it back on. Let's see where we're at right now. Thank you. Okay. So in Klein, you can turn your, your mics on as well. Thank you. Again, welcome. I'm meeting was called to order at 533 p.m. And we do have a quorum. So I would like to. Take the roll for the group. And we'll begin here. Ms. Owen. Ms. Pat. Yeah. Ms. Farera. Yeah. Mr. Burton Jones. Mr. Cage. Here. Ms. Walker. Ms. Walker. Here. Hi, welcome. Thank you. And welcome is moist and Mr. Backelman to the meeting. Welcome also to any community members who may be with us this evening. And we have a little bit different evening this evening. But before we begin. Just want to check in. On a few things and go over our agenda very briefly. Our agenda review tonight basically is the same as we've always had it. We are going to, I believe. Look at minutes. Yeah. We did, did everyone had a chance to read any of the minutes that came through? I know we got the, the packet kind of late. As usual. Because it was just over. It's an overload going on there. It's more than you just send everything out, right? Okay. Yes. But the minutes are the same ones I sent them out in last week's packet. Yeah. Okay. So we will go through the minutes and approve the minutes of those meetings. And then we're going to move on to the next slide. And then we're going to move on to the next slide. Beyond that. We will have public comment. As we usually do. A welcoming comments and. Thoughts from our community. Which we will. Listen to as we always do. And. There are a couple of comments that need to be made by our. Working member. Working members group. And we are going to entertain those at that particular time. And then we have our. Our meeting agenda today is going to be. First, we have a guest with us. Known to many of us in. In our community, Dr. Barbara love one of. A number of community members and agencies we will be talking to in the course of our work. And we're glad she's here tonight. We're going to be discussing the. Give certificate proposal. Which we've discussed in previous meetings. And we're going to take a look at and review the. The current bid. Phase one and phase two. We're going to update from the folks working on that. And we'll have a discussion about that as well. And we'll review a list of. BIPOC organizations, businesses and individuals. Which. We plan to. Talk to reach out to in the course of our work. As a, as a working group. After that is, we always do. We'll look at upcoming events. And set our next meeting date. And entertain any. Comments on items that did not make the agenda. Within the 48 hour. Prior advance notice time. And then we will adjourn. So. Going forward. Let's go through the approval of the minutes. And I can't remember. I think we did these one at a time. Clearly, but. We'll go back right now and go to the. The approval of the. January 28th minutes. Okay. Mr. Wiley. So I was a little ambitious and thinking I was going to get to the two three and two 10. So it's really just the one 28 minutes. That's, that's why I just, yeah, cross those out myself on the thing. Okay. And, and by the way. This is, this is a monumental task that I think we all are aware of. With the, you know, Miss moison trying to put this together for. We appreciate. We appreciate that. We appreciate that. We appreciate that. We appreciate that. If we go forward, you know, we'll all certainly try to. Get that information before, before the group in a timely manner. But in the meantime. I want to appreciate the work going into it and. Have us also exercise a little patience, especially around minutes, which are very extensive for this particular group. In particular. So. I'm going to go ahead and do a quick review and approval of the. January 28th minutes. Does anyone have any, any. Corrections or comments. They'd like to make on the. January 28th minutes. Can you put it up. Comments corrections edits from the group. Can you scroll. There's a big chunk of information here that's. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm leaving a document here. So maybe want to scroll down a little bit. As we go. Mr. Brown Jones. Oh, I can't be sure of this, but. In what's showing there. It says that I said that Ms. Pat. And I realized there are two different sets of expertise needed. I think the two were. Outreach. In terms of how we can get into the service provision. Is Pat. My recollection was who we're talking about. Phase phase one and two phase two being. Legal. Focus. As opposed to phase one. Okay. Let's, let's leave it the way it is that. Yeah. That's fine. I guess we can keep moving that down. This moist and please. Now we continue to scroll just a little bit please. Okay. Move it along there. Thank you. Miss moisten and move down maybe a half page. This was that long meeting, wasn't it? Yes. Yeah. I feel like I'm reliving it a little bit right now. Okay, let's move forward, please. Just so you know, I'm unable to read this right now because I'm driving. Thank you, Miss Bowman. Glad you're glad you're with us. Drive carefully. We'll do. Thanks. Please scroll. And that's the end. Okay. I would. That. The question you had about the minutes, Mr. Vernon Jones was, was not a correction. We're just going to leave it the way it is. I withdraw my comment. Okay. Thank you. So we can we approve the minutes as a working group. As they exist. Let's go by role here. Mr. Vernon Jones. Hi. Miss Owen. Mr. Cage. Miss Walker. Hi. And Miss Pat. Hi. Okay. And myself is an eye. Thank you. You just need me. Yeah. Okay. I'm just closing out the screen. When I read those notes, I have to pull up the entire screen because I'm, I'm a little older than you, Miss Ferrer. A lot older actually. Thank you, Miss Ferrer. That was an irony than me. So stop it. Thank you all. Okay. The minutes have been for 128 have been approved. And we'll approve the next set of minutes. Hopefully at our next meeting. As they should be able to appear in our packet then. We'd like to open it up to public comment. Now from any of our. And from any of our. Visitors to the group. Our community members who might be participating with us tonight. You're welcome to make comment at this time. You'll be recognized by any, any recognition. Any comments, Miss Moisten. No, thank you. Okay. So, uh, seeing that there are none. Um, They're, um, like to go to our, uh, committee, uh, members at this point, our working group members for any, uh, comments. Any comments. The last meeting we, we didn't, uh, include this, um, This segment. Um, for particular reasons we left it in this at this time, because I know there's, uh, At least one and two public comments we'd like to make. Um, and, um, To the, to the public and to our group and, uh, Let's start with Mr. Vernon Jones. Okay. Um, whatever November or whatever we, when we got appointed, I went through the conflict of interest training as you all did. And realize that there was a situation I had to explore further. So I asked the town manager about it. And he suggested that I go right to the attorney at the state ethics commission. The situation is that I have sometimes in the past provided training and professional development. And it's not something that I've been doing for a long time. I haven't been implicit bias. Um, and well, it's never been a major source of income. And it's not something. Uh, I plan on doing a lot more of, um, There was at least one situation with the police department where, Um, a trainer who was a person of color asked me if I would be part of a team and wanted me as a white man to be, uh, part of a team. Um, I was going to be talking about. Training or development. Uh, for police here. Um, And I was hoping that I might. Still be it. Have the option to participate if I was asked in a training session for the police after our work is over. Uh, and what the attorney at the state told me is that it's up to the appointing officer, which in this case is. Um, Uh, so I wrote to Mr. Backelman explaining the situation and what the attorney said. Um, and he wrote back. I'll read from his letter. I believe the spirit of the conflict of interest law has met with the letter you wrote to me in a public statement and a meeting of the community safety working group when this topic comes up. So there's transparency. I'm approving your continued service as a member of the community safety working group. So this is just a statement of disclosure. Uh, so there's no, uh, sense of hidden agenda or, or conflict. Um, Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Let me just ask Mr. Backelman. Do you think there's anything else that needs to be said at this point? No, and I think the, I think it's, it's good to disclose. Um, it's that's also the, your statements. Um, is also on file with it in the town clerk's office. Uh, so any, anyone who seeks it can read it. Um, I think you, uh, Uh, members of the community are not the contract awarding authority. And any kind of, if there is, if you are a participating, any kind of contract to you, of course, would step away from any kind of consideration of that contract. Thank you. Mr. Backelman, Mr. Vernon Jones, Mr. Owen, did you have your hand up? Okay. I'd like to, um, Uh, make a comment as well, uh, similar to Mr. Vernon Jones and I, uh, took a similar action, uh, with Mr. Mr. Backelman, um, through the, uh, company that my wife owns around the associates, we have had the, um, uh, occasion to do work this past fall with the police department. And while she was the principal in this particular case, I'm part of that. So similar to Mr. Vernon Jones's case, I wrote to Mr. Backelman as well. And, uh, in similar fashion, you know, what I dispose about the fact that we worked before. And that, um, you know, my participation in terms of any training, the conversations, et cetera, would, you know, I would, you know, simply recuse myself from them. If it came down to a point of, uh, looking at potential contracts, et cetera. Um, uh, the disclosure piece is important because, um, you know, you all need to know that we did that work in the past and, um, don't intend to do it in the future. So, uh, the same kind of thing, uh, same kind of letter, same kind of response to Mr. Backelman. Just so you know that we were in, uh, involved through, uh, my, um, my wife's independent consulting company. So very similar thing. So I thought it'd be a good time to say that as Mr. Jones, Mr. Vernon Jones was talking about his, uh, I was certainly disclose my previous work with the police department as well. So, so that's any other comments from, um, others in the community working group. Ms. Pat. So, um, I'm happy to hear that the town tabs into our community resources to hear that both of you have done training with the police department is something. I appreciate instead of getting people from outside our community. That's all I want to say. Thank you. Other comments. Um, I'm seeing people off screen. I know Ms. Bowman, you're, you're driving, but Mr. Cage, Ms. Walker. Uh, you're not on screen now. So I'm, I am looking for that, uh, hand raised, um, Ms. Moyston. So do I have, am I able to see that? Um, you should be able to see it. I'm just saying, but I don't see any. I want to be sure of that. I'm not missing anything. Okay. Thank you. There's no hands raised. Thank you very much. So, um, Given that, I'd like to move forward. And again, thank the working group for all the hours that they're putting in to make this work happen. And, uh, For those of you who are. In the community listening to our, our, our, our, our, our meeting tonight and participating in our meeting as, as, um, A person, people who are absorbing information from this meeting. We have their privilege. Uh, this evening to invite, uh, Dr. Barbara love. To our, to our panel. She, um, is a member, long standing member of our community. And certainly a person who was well versed in the areas of. Of race, implicit bias. Conclusion. And the list goes on. I do want to say that she's known to many of us in this community, respected by many of us in this community. And, uh, And, um, I think we saw her out as we will other members of our community to discuss. Issues around policing. And, and safety. Yeah. In the Amherst community. So, uh, this will not be the first time that this group will entertain the comments and certainly welcome the presence of. Community members. Who work on behalf of the BIPOC community. To this meeting. But she is, uh, Our first. And gives our screen a little different look because she's new to it. Uh, she's not new to the work. Um, some of us have had a privilege to work with alongside Dr. Barbara love. Some of us know her as a community member. Uh, some of us. Don't know her yet. But you will. So I do want to, uh, thank, uh, You know, Mr. Vernon Jones and maybe others who have participated in talking with Dr. Love to get her. To come here tonight and Dr. Love, I want to welcome you. And thank you. For your presence here. Tonight and your will is to share some of your time and expertise with us. Um, So welcome. Welcome, Dr. Love. Happy to have you here. You're muted on mute. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to come and let me also begin with my thanks to you. For your time and your energy. And your commitment. To doing this work. I know it's a lot of time. I know that it's a huge, uh, bite. It's a great, a great opportunity to be part of your life. And I'm grateful to you for your willingness to do it. I gave a speech once where I referred to the great Republic of Amherst. And Amherst has that possibility of being the world that we want. And the work that you are doing is a step toward helping to make that happen. So I'm really, really glad that you're doing it. And please accept my. Thanks to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to do it. I was given three questions. So I'll say something about to those three questions. And then I'm, I'd love to, um, Hey, here you're thinking or any other questions that you'd like to, uh, hear my thinking about. Yes. I've been. I have been in Amherst over half a century. I've been in Amherst for a long time. I've been in Amherst for a long time. I was born in Arkansas home because that's where I was born. That's where I was raised. That's where my ancestors bones are buried. But Amherst in a very particular and special way is, is my home. And, um, Getting to see us think about how we make it. Uh, a better place for everybody, a town that works well for everyone. Uh, the question that I was asked was given the research that says implicit bias training doesn't reduce police violence.  Second, what is your vision and what are your recommendations about how our working group can play a role in dismantling white supremacy in Amherst and any other hopes and recommendations and advice that I might offer to, to your group. So the first piece is about the research on implicit bias training. Let me say don't believe the hype about the research. The research does not say that implicit bias training doesn't have any effect. What they say is that they cannot prove that it reduces police violence. Reducing police violence is an important matrix, but it's not the only thing. So that's the first thing to keep in mind. The second is that, uh, the research is widely removed from specifying how the goal they're seeking to measure is connected to the treatment or the training. In other words, let me say it this way. How many of you ever took seventh grade algebra? Wave your hand. Come on, you all did. Now, um, research will not be able to prove that your seventh grade algebra reduced the number of mathematical mistakes that you have made in your work since then. Are you following me? The research similarly will not be able to prove that it didn't. In other words, the research on police bias doesn't cannot, cannot prove that it didn't reduce and it cannot prove one way or the other. They simply aren't able to do it. But, uh, aside from the difficulties with the framework of the research itself, which I think is a researcher's nightmare, here are these other issues. First of all, what training is the research measuring? There is no comprehensive curricula on, um, implicit bias training. Second, who is delivering the, the training. And unfortunately, again, um, two members of your group have already talked tonight about delivering implicit bias training and I have 100% confidence in the work that would be done, has been done, will be done by these two members of your group. I am also aware that a huge range of expertise and lack of expertise is involved in the delivery of implicit bias training. I happen to be aware of places where somebody said we ought to have implicit bias training. The group or the company or the organization looked around to say, do we have any black people on our staff? Oh, yeah, there is X. Well, let's ask, ask X to deliver some implicit bias training. There is a huge range of things that goes in the name of implicit bias training and there is no regulation, there's no organization, there's no certification. So what training is being measured by the research is beyond anyone's ability to name or to specify. So when you're looking at, um, how the research measures the effectiveness of implicit bias training, they are measuring something. They have absolutely no idea what it is that they are measuring. And second, the training as far as I have been able to ascertain has never been connected with the specific goal of reducing police violence. So the one training, I took a quick look after I got your question and the New York city police department has done a huge thing on implicit bias training. They call it a fairness in policing. And here are the goals of their training. Let's see there. The goals of their training are to inform offices that bias influences everyone to provide actionable instruction for minimizing its effect and the discharge of their duties, educating personnel about the science of implicit bias, outlining consequences that could possibly result from bias, uh, describing skills that personnel can employ to manage biases. Uh, trainers concede that bias can happen and they explain that bias reduction in law enforcement is instrumental to increasing levels of procedural justice and police legitimacy. Now here's, here's my question to you. Exactly. Which one of those objectives connected to reducing police violence? Go ahead. Tell me. Okay. In other words, you get my point. Um, I'm going to ask you a question to measure. I'll answer you. No, answer me. Yeah, I just didn't want to interrupt you. Yeah. Um, the, the, the research doesn't give you, uh, the picture that you assume that it is giving you. And the other thing about the, the, the curricula for, uh, implicit bias training. Um, apparently the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the situation is not the most standard. You can use surprising values anywhere from a 30 minute lecture. To 40 hours of training with the most common, uh, format being an eight hour training. So again, I will ask you if there is something that you have been immersed in all of your life, such as for instance, structural racism. to change your behavior.  In other words, question the research and do not accept that as a guideline for what your recommendations will be. And I'll say a couple more things about the notion of training. One is that people can't do what they don't know and where in any of our well not you because because you're on this committee I'm going to conclude that well in fact I know most of you and I know those that I know I know have had the opportunity to spend some time thinking about this learning about this working on this in fact teaching about it but most people have not had an opportunity to learn something about racial equity about implicit bias about what it is about how it gets manifested about what to do about it. It wasn't in our elementary schools, it wasn't in our high schools, it wasn't in our college. Where did we get a chance to learn about it? And the average police person is just like the rest of us. They have not had that opportunity either. And I think my own attitude is that it's a little bit unfair to ask people to know about something, pay attention to something and be able to do something that they have had no opportunity to learn something about. So hold that in your mind as you're thinking about what you will recommend or what you will do or what your what attitude position you will take about training. One more thing about training most of the training focuses on sharing information. It's a cognitive approach and keep in mind this idea information is not enough. So to illustrate my point I will ask you to tell me how many of you know somebody who smokes cigarettes? Wave your hand. Nobody? Okay, everybody here knows somebody who smokes cigarettes.  No, these are your friends, your family, your relations, your friends, people who are near and dear to you.   I don't think I'm doing this quite right but you get my point. My point is they have the information but that did not change their behavior. So most training which relies on sharing information, cognitive change, to change behavior simply is inadequate. The thing about racism is that it has hurt all of us, every single one of us. And in addition to information which we need, like a lot of people need to hear, for instance, somebody say color blindness is not necessarily a good thing and they need to hear the answer why. Because so many people assume, so many white people that I have met assume that color blindness is good, that they're doing a good thing when they say I don't know this color. And they need to get the information about why that might not necessarily be the most appropriate way to proceed if they want to reduce the effects of discrimination or racial bias in their work, say policing. So they need information, yes, but people also need a chance to heal. There is a certain kind of healing work that needs to occur when we talk about implicit bias or changing attitudes or changing behavior patterns related to racial equity work. The second thing that I would say is that training cannot be done in a vacuum. It must be done within an overall context of a vision, of a liberatory vision for policing, a liberatory vision for a town, and it must be done within the context of some understandings about what is acceptable behavior, some context about accountability, some context about where it is that we're going and what are the expectations that we have for individual members of our department in order to get us there. I had put together, I collected a bunch of things came to mind and I wanted to share a few of those examples, but I won't just because of time, about the context in which policing is occurring in the present time. But you do get to think about that. And when you're thinking about training, remember that it's not happening in a vacuum, it's happening within a much larger context and part of the recommendations that I hope that you will ultimately make will have something to do with that overall context. So let me say a couple of thoughts about what recommendations I would make for you. The role that you can play in dismantling white supremacy in Amherst. First of all, that is an extraordinarily powerful vision in and of itself that you can play a role in dismantling white supremacy in Amherst. So three things. One, I'd like to see you develop a procedure to engage the town in a visioning process about dismantling white supremacy. Get the whole town involved in visioning what that looks like in order to vision what that looks like. They will necessarily have to spend some time learning about what that is and how it manifests itself in the town. What are the ways that it shows up? It to envision dismantling white supremacy in our town, they will have to spend some time figuring that out for themselves and then figuring it out for the larger community. That visioning process has to include everybody. It has to include business and higher education in the school system and philanthropy and social services, Chamber of Commerce, civic groups, community members, media, public health, faith communities, town governments, all aspects of the community need to be involved in this visioning process and dialogue groups and listening sessions and information sessions and training programs, yes, and healing sessions. All sorts of ways of bringing people together to be involved in this visioning process for our town and you've already learned that sending out notices won't do it. You're going to need some community organizers, some people whose focus is on developing relationships with these broad segments of the community to get them involved, get their voices involved, engaging their interest and enlisting their support in this project because that can be such an extraordinary project to have the whole town of Amherst involved in thinking together about what it means to have a town that is anti-racist, a town that is dismantling white supremacy, a town that is engaged in making itself a model community. And then finally, oh, and let that process, that visioning process, must conclude with some specific recommendations, action strategies, specific strategies for implementing the vision. A liberatory vision guides the whole project and then specific strategies implements the project. And don't let your work in without giving the town managers some very specific next steps. What are the specific things that must be done in order to implement this vision? So what do I want to say to you? You are doing the work of the universe. You are figuring out how to create a better town, a better world. So let your love for this town show in all that you do. Communicate your love for this town and your desire for it to be a better world in the way that you do what you do. Let journey be the destination. Destination be a part of the journey. Let how you do what you do be a part of where you are trying to get to and make your recommendations specific. Make sure you leave with an implementation strategy and continue to expand your big thinking and make it bigger. No binary thinking here. You've already clarified that it's not police or no police. It's not one thing or another. No binary thinking here. If it's not best to ask the police to do mental health work, then who should do it? If it's not best to ask the police to do social service work, then who should do it? If it's not best to ask the police to do child welfare work or family systems intervention or school truancy work, then who should do those things? And what are your proposed systems for having those needs met? So make sure your directions to the town manager are very specific about very specific parts of the community needs of the community that must be addressed. Thank you. That's what I can say to you. Thank you for your willingness to serve. And as my mother used to say, many thanks until you are better paid. Well, needless to say, unless I'm speaking out of turn here, we've never met your mom. But if we do ever meet her in this life or another, we appreciate her a whole lot for that comment. Let me just, as chair and certainly in the midst of my colleagues here who I have tremendous respect for, Dr. Love, I want to thank you for being here with us. And I would take responsibility for this. We set aside an hour for you being here. You spoke for 20 minutes. I thought I spoke five. You're still on the hook for two more minutes with us. So I'm hoping you have the time and the willingness to engage in some of a little bit of dialogue with our community service safety working group. And I will, you know, if I may, in those group, we take a moment of just muted reflection on what Dr. Love said right now. And then, you know, we can mute ourselves, reflect for literally a minute. I'm going to count that off 60 seconds. And we'll come back and see if there are any comments, questions, clarifications you need from Dr. Love. And Dr. Love, if you would sit with us for a little bit, we'd be blessed and happy to have you here. So does that work for everybody? Okay. So let's just mute ourselves for a minute. I'll come back to you in a minute. And we'll move forward from there. Okay. I'd like to welcome you back. You can unmute yourself as you finish your own reflections on this moment. And again, thank you, Dr. Love, for being here and sharing your experience and expertise and wisdom with us. And I would like to open it up to the working group to see if you have any comments, questions, clarifications, thoughts you'd like to share with Dr. Love in the time she has here. And we have about maybe 25, 30 minutes. Ms. Pat. Thank you, Dr. Love, for coming to share your expertise with us. The question I have for you when you talk about engaging the whole town and visioning, what is the timeframe would you recommend to us? Are we talking for 2021, or for a couple of years? This year, for sure. And given that for the foreseeable future, much of your work will continue to be done online, which unfortunately fools many of us, including myself, into thinking that we can do so much more than we actually can because it's being done online. But I would give it a quite finite time period of six weeks or two months or three months. I'm not exactly sure what the time would be. I want you to sit down and kind of chart out who are all the people, who are all the groups we want to talk with, who are the various communities we want to be in touch with, what's the probable lead time we would need to have in order to get their thinking into the process and from that project a timeframe. So I don't have in my mind already a timeframe for how long that would take, but I would want you to kind of chart out what that would look like and then let's set a not two years, no, not going into next year, no, this year. While your interest and energy of the committee is here and creating what I'm hoping is some energy in the town around this topic. So I'd want you to do it. I'd want it to be done whomever is going to do it within the next immediate period of time. This summer, this fall. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Pat. Thank you for that question. Thank you, Dr. Love. I've got to insert here and you can be okay with this. You don't have to answer it or you can answer if you want to. How many of you didn't know Dr. Love before this meeting? I'm so glad to meet you. See, the reason I asked that Dr. Love is because there are some young people here I want to acknowledge. I don't know if Darius Cage has his hand up, but he's our 14 year old community safety working group member. I want to recognize him for his efforts. He probably saw the article in the newspaper about him. He was on the cover of the Gazette with a bunch of other young people. So we have some people coming up. Ms. Owen is our vice chair. Ms. Walker has been very active and a major contributor to this work.  I'm really, really, really glad about that. And I hear you pushing yourself. out the door, which is not going to work. I'll tell you, these folks are chasing you, Dr. Love. Don't look back. No, I got to reach for them. I got to get my hands on them. Yeah, you get your hands on them because they're contributors. And I just inserted that because I think just the contextually you know that this is a group that's working very hard and the town has worked very hard, by the way, to see that we get young people involved in this. And our committee has been working hard to get people involved. So thank you, Ms. Pat, for that question. Thank you, Dr. Love, for the response. Other comments or questions for Dr. Love? Ms. Ferreira? Again, you know, I think everyone's going to keep on saying it, Dr. Love, that how happy we are that you're here with us and accepting our invitation. And I'll give you the wealth of expertise and experience with us is just, you know, there's no words to describe it. So, you know, I just wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, the training aspects that you talked about in terms of implicit bias, which of course, I'm on board with in terms of what you said. And I do understand that obviously, you know, quality and quantity is very important, right? Like who's presenting the information and how long the information is being presented, because you're right, you know, there's just myriads of trainers, myriads of information that's being shared. And then we call it implicit bias training. We call it anti-racist training. We call it whatever, just to kind of check off the box, right? But the other part, though, too, that I see that's very imperative in this is the aspect that I'm sure, you know, a lot of us kind of grapple with this is the fact that even, you know, there is that whole checking the box, right? There is that whole kind of behind the, you know, who's making the decisions to bring these trainers in. And the fact that it's our, you know, black and brown bodies and people of color bodies that are at stake here, right? At the end of the day. And the fact that, you know, year in and year out, I mean, and we're not talking about just, right, we're not talking about just the past 10 years, the 20 years, we're talking about, you know, like 100 years, 200 years that we're dealing with the same type of violence, you know, year in and year out.   This cannot continue, you know what I'm saying? And I understand that we're at this point, you know, in this, in this group to, to make some recommendation. But we really need to think about that, right? I mean, we don't have any more room for folks, or for people who are in leadership to say, you know, well, I don't know what this means. Oh, well, you know, I checked the box. Oh, well, they got this amount of information. No, if the, if the results is that, you know, black and brown bodies are being violated, you know, in myriad of ways, right? Not just by taking away life, but also by the stops that are occurring, harassment, searches, arrests, right? That are just, you know, just doing your way with people's families, because not just the person being arrested or stopped.   So for me, I want to hear from you a little bit more, right? If you have any other, you know, nuggets to share with us, you know, in terms of how we can be effective as a group, right? To make really, you know, specific and detailed, as you said, recommendation to address that this is high state, you know what I'm saying? This, you know, this is people dying, you know what I'm saying? And being violated and so on. So I'm not getting services or the resources that they need. And at the end of the day, it being bypassed, you know what I'm saying? That are most being impacted, you know, in terms of, and I understand that obviously this, you know, we understand that, you know, there's the numbers, there's this and that. But in terms of, once we focus it on the data, we know we're the ones that have been most impacted.  But let me stop there. Yep. I don't thank you for that question. And the all of the heartfelt concern embodied in the question, the recognition of the historical nature of the problem that we're facing, the fact that this isn't new, that it is ongoing, that it is deeply entrenched within the society. And, and that now is the time. Part of what I didn't talk about, Dr. Wiley, I just don't believe I talked 20 minutes. But wait, there's a few things I didn't say. And one of which... Dr. Sister Love, let me tell you something. As soon as you came on, I started my stopwatch. Just because I was looking at how to stretch our agenda so we wouldn't have to do this other stuff so we could hear from you. Well, thank you. And I'm just going to make this short if I can. And that is to say that what you are trying to do, one, I said that police behavior has to be considered within the context of a department that has a liberatory vision, a liberatory framework, a set of understandings about what is acceptable behavior and so on. But a department, a police department, exists within the context of a town. And this town, and I made the reference to the Republic of Amherst for a very specific reason, this town exists within a national context. I wanted, for instance, to play for you the comments by Mitch McConnell about the culpability of the 45th president and the events that happened on the Capitol on January 6th and matched that up with his vote. That's the national context within which you are attempting to do your work. For Valentine's Day, the officers in the LAPD sent around a Valentine that said, you take my breath away with the picture of George Floyd. That was what, three days ago. That's the LAPD. That's the national context within which we are trying to do this work. And I had a few other examples of what's the context within which you are working. I call it the Republic of Amherst, because one of the things I remember being so astonished by when I first came to Amherst many years ago, was that the town of Amherst voted to withdraw from Vietnam. And the town of Amherst has voted, was one of the first places in the country to vote that you should not smoke in public restaurants. The town of Amherst was one of the first places. In other words, I go through this list of things that the town of Amherst was way out front in doing. So the town of Amherst is going to buck not only the national trend, but the trend right here in Western Massachusetts. You are sandwiched in between signs up and down the highway that say, make America great again. And that is a stand in for a certain set of attitudes and beliefs and behavior patterns, which I have experienced. So you are trying to do something. Your task is to do something that makes Amherst different. So no, I don't have more very specific recommendations about what you should do. For instance, if you decide to do training, you can specify what are the things that you think the curricula should include. And you can specify what are the qualifications or the credentials of the people delivering the training should have. And what's the experience you want them to have demonstrated if they're going to be the people delivering the training. So I mean, there are all those kind of very specific things that you can do that can provide some form and context to the recommendations that you make. You can, for instance, I got excited about this visioning process. You can specify who are the people in the community who must have their voices at the table. Because if this is going to work, all these parts of the community would have to be involved. The town of Amherst used to have on-town government staff, somebody who was a liaison to the Cambodian community. As far as I know, that doesn't exist anymore. Somewhere along the way in the name of economics or in the name of budget saving or something like that, that as far as I know, that staff person got cut. So how does the Cambodian community connect with the town in general? I mean, there are just these very specific things which you can have on your plate to ensure that these things happen if you are going to create this better world, this better town, that you are uniquely positioned to lead the charge. Thank you, Ms. Ferrerra, for that question. Thank you, Dr. Love. As we transition to maybe the next comment or question, I was just thinking, and I wrote a note down here reminding me of what James Baldwin said to us in his life. He said that we are trapped in our history, and our history is trapped in us. And I think if we remember that in that way, that us is not black people. Us is not BIPOC people. Us is everybody. Everybody. The history is trapped in them and is trapped in us. And I think to unravel that, and I think that's the message. I'm not speaking for you, Dr. Love, but I think the message behind that is persistence and commitment to sort of unraveling that history in a way that creates a conversation that enlightens us to be able to do the next step work that we need to do. And I think that's, Ms. Ferrerra, that's what you were saying, like, you know, what's the catalyst behind this charge that we have? And so, you know, thank you for the question, Ms. Ferrerra, and thank you, Dr. Love. I want to just be sure, because I don't see them on the screen here, because I know Ms. Bowman, you are, you're driving and, you know, I want you to keep both hands on the wheel. And Mr. Cage, you're not on the screen, I want to make sure your hand is, but I want to, I want to take a minute, if I may, before I go to anybody else in the committee, because Mr. Cage, I don't want to put you on the spot, but I want to make sure that you know you have an opportunity to be, to commit to this. And as a the youngest person, I think you're 14 years old, if I got that right, as a youngest person on our committee, I want you to have a voice in this conversation. And I just want to make sure that that is forward. So, if you don't want to speak right now, you don't have to. But if you do want to speak, I'm inviting you to do so right now. If you have any questions or comments for Dr. Love? Yeah. So I don't have any, like much to say, but I'm just, I can't say that I'm soaking all of this up and just taking this all down and like, I'm just going to like use it in my work, like I'm taking each piece that you say, and I'm using, I'm going to use it well. So I thank you. Thank you.  He's also trying to be a student. He's also trying to be an athlete. So, this little brother's life is full. Okay. So I'm glad he's here. Ms. Bum, I would just take out of the stage. You're in your car and I just want to reach out to you real quick. Let's give you any comments before I move to the group that's on screen. No, I don't have any comments right now. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So other folks' comments or questions for Dr. Love and I think we've got about maybe 10 more minutes or so if our time is past. So Dr. Love, as when we had the one minute break to reflect, for some of you who don't know, our daughter Valerie and my first daughter, our best friend Laura. And so I was reflecting on the healing sessions. How would that look like? Because the reason why I asked the question is, for some of the residents and former residents of all races, people have had experiences that it would be nice to have an opportunity for the town to engage in healing process. Are you thinking more of white people alone or everyone? Thank you for that question. And the healing sessions I think are important for everyone, for white people, BIPOC people. I use the term people of the global majority. It's just my personal preference. Indigenous people for everyone, which is a little different from the dialogue sessions that I'm also recommending. Or speaking listen sessions, which are very useful for people to get to hear about the experiences of others without comment or judgment, etc. There are panels that we can have so that people can hear about and learn about the experiences of others. But the healing sessions take a very specific purpose and have a very specific form. And it's about individual people getting a chance to take a look at their own early experiences related to race and related to racism itself. Getting a chance to notice their earliest memories of knowing something about race, of recognizing themselves as raised beings, of having experiences of noticing that people were treated differently because of their race. Or getting a chance to recall their earliest experiences of themselves being treated differently because of their race. Or noticing that life chances are sometimes governed by race. In other words, giving people a chance to go back and look at the ways in which the process under which the time in which they got racialized, they got learnings about race. And getting a chance to talk about those experiences with the caring aware attention of other human beings who are not trying to analyze them, not trying to fix them, not trying to do anything except give them their aware attention so that they can do their own processing around how they came to know about race, how they got socialized around race, how they got the notions and the hurts of race that are inherent in this society installed on them. This would have to be a very carefully and thoughtfully organized and curated experience. Again, it's the way I most recommend it be done is with groups of peer counselors who get trained to do that, not just throw people together and ask them to do it, but train groups of peer counselors who can have those kinds of sessions with each other. And most of all of us can be trained to do it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Great question, Ms. Pat. I think that builds a lot into our thinking about our purpose as a group too. I didn't do it at the beginning, Dr. Love, but you probably already picked it up, certainly, about what our context is all about. If you need more information, any one of us would be happy to forward it to you if it helps in any way. Other comments, and let me go to folks maybe who haven't had a chance to speak yet. No pressure. You don't have to speak. Just conscious of Dr. Love's time and our time too, and we have maybe about 10 minutes. Ms. Owen, could I hear from you? I thought everything you said, everything you said first of all just really resonated with me. I really liked how you emphasized how we need to be very specific with our recommendations. I think every person on this working group brings something different to the table, and I think that's what makes us so great. I just want to thank you for your time and for all of your suggestions, because I do think this work has to continue. It starts here and we need to be specific. I don't know. I'm just really soaking it in. I really do like the idea of healing sessions and learning how to be peer counselors. I really do think that there's a lot of utility and peer-led resources, and I think it builds a lot of community. And I'm really excited to meet you. I'm glad to meet you. Thank you. Thank you. And could I hear from Ms. Walker? Hello, Dr. Love. Thank you for taking the time to speak with our group tonight. It has been very informative for me, and as a young mother growing up in Amherst, it just is really affirming for me to hear you speak about things very directly, and you're very knowledgeable because you've been here for such a long time, but I've also grown up here most of my life, but I'm just coming into these things, so I'm really appreciating hearing the knowledge right now. Thank you. So good to meet you. So good to meet you. Thank you all for having me once again. Thank you. Thank you for the work that you do. I call it, this is an Arkansas reference, so if it doesn't, if you don't get it, it's okay to ask me what I mean, but you're giving what I call the pigs portion. You know, okay, Paul is shaking his head. So imagine breakfast. I'm from Alabama. Thank you. Okay, so go ahead. Imagine breakfast, and there's eggs and bacon for breakfast.  You're giving the pigs portion, and I just want you to know I acknowledge it on behalf of the town and my co-citizens. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you again for your time and your presence here. Just one last go around. Anyone else has anything else you want to say, you know, Mr. Backelman? Ms. Moyston, I know you're not on our group, but you're here. You're right here. So I don't want to miss that opportunity, and I know Mr. Vernon Jones, and I know you, so we're going to be a little sitting back here a little bit, but any other comments before I let Dr. Love go? I defer to Jennifer. So Dr. Love, thank you so much. You are just the wealth of information and inspiration at the same time. So as I continue to kind of move in the same direction of, I don't even know how to explain it, but do you have any suggestions as staff liaison? Because you know, I'm kind of in the middle and I live in my residence, so I always understand where our audience is coming from. I always understand where our members are coming from, from the community safety working group, but I also understand the town side and like the best ways to get those points across to each other without being insulting, without like, you know, sometimes you just have to be blunt about stuff, but other times, you know, you can be a lot, you know, you can soften it up a little bit, but just for some guidance in there and how best to steer this group and motivate a couple of other groups that don't have the same kind of energy that I'm really hoping to give to them. So exactly what you said, I'll take what you just said and give it back to you as advice. You do have ideas, you do have a particular perspective as a town employee, as a town resident, as a member of this committee. You have ideas to share with this committee and I suggest that you, I'm sure if you, what was I going to say, beg the attention of the group, they will want to hear what you have to say and then take these ideas to these other groups that you are thinking about and get them moving, put some fire under them, light them up and, you know, a liberatory vision for our town is not too much to ask for anybody for any group who is working in the town or on behalf of the town and people sometimes must be pushed, but they do move sometimes, not always, but sometimes it just takes one push to get them moving. And also remember, this is the wrong analogy, but I'll use it because it's what comes to my mind at the moment. It's always a straw that breaks the camel's back. We wait for the big thing, we wait for the big moment, but it's a straw. Sometimes all that's needed is just that straw. So never underestimate the significance or the importance of what you bring. I value it. Remember that it's important. Mr. Barkleman. So I just, if people, I know some folks here were a part of the Black History Month event last night and Jen talked a lot personally about her growing up and it was really powerful to me and I think people is a relatively small group, you know, decent sized group, you know, but her experiences and her history was very compelling and it was a model for how to engage. It wasn't just a speech someone was giving. She was sharing her heart and so I found that really powerful last night. I think Dr. Love, I find you to be very inspirational and I find honestly this group, this working group right now to be very inspirational to me too. I love coming to the meetings and I just really appreciate the work that everybody's bringing and the passion and the honesty and anger and things. I think that's all really important. I thought what you said to me, the big vision of saying dismantling structural racism and Amherst, that's a compelling vision and then you sort of said we want to, but we have to be specific about how to get there and I think that that's a very compelling vision. I think that if this group says this is the vision we want to achieve, I think the town will rally around it and I think people will say and now let's put the resources together to make it happen and I thought the way you had contextualized it by being Amherst, our history is being ahead. We need to be stating that for town government, our individual departments, our individuals in the departments and the town as a whole. So I really appreciate it. I took a flurry of notes so I appreciated that. Thank you, fabulous. Thank you Ms. Moisten, Mr. Baucherman. Okay, Dr. Love, thank you. Thank you very much for having me. For kicking off kind of our community engagement piece, if you will. For folks who are listening and certainly for, this is recorded, we are on a mission to outreach to the community in some ways that we even have yet to define, but we're moving in that direction. So hopefully we'll have this kind of conversation going forward. So thank you so much. We really, really appreciate you being here. You're so welcome. Thank you. Thank you. So I got to take a deep breath from that one for a minute and go to the next thing. Thank you all for your input and thoughtfulness with Dr. Love. I know she is always very thoughtful and reflective on her work and practice and it's nice to hear her say that she recognized that in us as well. So we're good going forward in that way. I want to go right to the gift certificate proposal and this is on our agenda. I'd like to just open it up to one, see what else we have to do with that. I know at the last meeting we talked about turning it over to the subcommittee who was working on that to come up with the plan and design for this. And so I'd like to just turn it over to folks who were doing that to see what the update is and where we need to go from here. Ms. Pat. I can go. So Ms. Marston had contacted Jimber of Commerce prior to that. Maybe she will talk about that. For some reason the town cannot directly handle the gift certificate or cards. If CSWG is going to do it, there has to be a separate bank account. And so the subgroup didn't think it's something we want to engage in. So Ms. Marston contacted the Chamber of Commerce and spoke with the Executive Director and about them helping us out. Ms. Marston can speak more about that. But we did include BIPOC restaurants as was suggested the last time when we presented. So the only thing we added is just the restaurant and other businesses. So I would like Ms. Marston to speak about going through Chamber of Commerce. Thank you Ms. Pat. Ms. Marston, if you don't mind. Sometimes the unmute at the bottom floats around and then I can't quite get to it to unmute myself. So sorry about that. So I just want to say that I had a neighbor foods market and cousins to the list of businesses. So that could be helpful to some individuals as well. So originally when I reached out to the Chamber of Commerce it wasn't necessarily to link or to collaborate with them because I know that there's like this, we had kind of talked about not collaborating with the Chamber for multiple reasons. But what I was looking for was the process that they used for their gift card program. So they have a gift card program they have whatever businesses sign and you can bring that card to any of the businesses. So it's not just geared for one individual business, it can go to all of the businesses that are under the umbrella of that program. And so I was trying to have us monitor, you know, model that because we do have an issue of it's best practice for town municipal governments not to be giving individuals gift certificates. It's also would be helpful if we had a third party to help us which part of that would have could have gone into the bid, but it's a little bit, even if we put it into the second bid, we don't want to necessarily wait that long. So Claudia explained this very complicated process of what has to happen in the equipment that you have to purchase and the cards and she offered and I made it very clear that if we were to and we would bring it back to the group so first I brought it back to Pat and Ms. Pat and Ms. Owen and that we would have to have a very distinguished line that this is we are not to include the other businesses that aren't PIPOC in here and like there's no sale of these uses us giving these cards to individuals. And so, you know, at the end of the day, I know we weren't trying to collaborate with the chamber, but it seems like at the same time that it might do us some good. So it seems like it's kind of a win-win for everybody. So we don't have to deal with the whole process of the gift card, which I had never no idea that it was so complicated. Right. And then we also the chamber doesn't always have the best relationships with some of the BIPOC community members. So we are also connecting those BIPOC community members with the chamber to a certain amount of degree, right, so that they are able and to help them kind of build that bridge that they need to connect to each other. And so, you know, the only thing that I was very specific about was, you know, that this needs to stay as is. It doesn't fall underneath the bids. Just it's not a sponsored from the bid program so that we would have our own separate account from theirs where they sell their gift cards because we're not selling anything and we would purchase our own gift cards. And so it was a great conversation and Claudia is very interested. And so I just suggested that we bring it back to the group. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Ms. Pada and Ms. Moison comments from our working group. I actually think that's a really good idea. Considering that how much we have on our plate and as long as they're able to follow through on their end with not including any of the non BIPOC community, BIPOC businesses, and they're able to keep our whole thing separate like we don't run into issues with that. I think that's a great idea. I'm sorry, go ahead. I will say that it's so complicated that Claudia has actually had to hire somebody to take this piece over with their gift card program. So, you know, none of us would have the capabilities of spearheading this. I'd like to, you know, give them what we've just heard and given what I've read here and our past conversations around this. I'd like to move that we, you know, accept this proposal. And we can, you know, if I could hear a second from the group and then if there's any more conversation on them, then we can vote on it. So I'd like to put that as a motion as it exists on in print and certainly with the comments that were offered by Ms. Pat and Ms. Moisten. Ms. Pat, second? No. No. No, you don't? Okay. Okay. Looking forward to my motion. Huh? I'm looking forward. I'm making a motion to accept this proposal. And then we discuss, right? Then we discuss. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'll second. Okay. Any discussion on the motion? Yes. Ms. Mat. It's actually not, I omitted one thing and I'm okay with it. And that is that Chamber of Commerce might charge us some fees as third party and I'm okay with that. Oh, Ms. Moisten is saying no. What? Is that no, Ms. Moisten? Is it a no? Before I say it's a flat no, a firm no. Claudia never mentioned a charge of anything in our conversation. Okay. We were speaking about collaborating. So my guess is no. She's usually pretty straightforward. Okay. And then I just didn't know, Ms. Owen, do you have any comments about it too? Because you were in that group as well. No, I think it would be really beneficial for us to move forward with the Chamber as long as everybody else is on board. Ms. Vernon Jones. I like the proposal and I'm in favor of our adopting it. If there's an opportunity, I'd like to do it in a way that might create other opportunities for these gift cards in the future. Particularly if we get the whole town envisioning being anti-racist, there might be people who wanted to buy such a gift card just to the BIPOC businesses to give us a gift. You know, I think there are any number of possibilities about how this could could grow or be used and not that we need to adopt those or insist on them at this point, but just whatever we do conduct it in a way that leaves open some possibilities for the future. Okay. Great suggestion. In fact, I heard on the news I can't remember which town it was in our city, but there was a business owner in a town where everyone was struggling. And I think this particular business owner, I'm making an assumption here, may have been doing a little bit better than others in his area. And he actually bought gift certificates that he could give out to people in the town to purchase services and goods from other businesses in the town as a way of spreading the wealth, so to speak, knowing that some of these businesses, the small business in particular, that were struggling. So in keeping Mr. Vernon Jones with what you're saying, there could be some traction here in the future to engage the community in such a way. Ms. Pat. So I'm sorry I've been talking too much tonight, but thank you, Mr. Ross, for suggesting that. I just wanted to comment that, you know, this particular project was very personal for me because this has been one of my dreams in our mess to really be able to amplify BIPOC businesses that has never happened. So I'm hoping and hopeful that this is a step of doing that. You know, when we're putting the list together, it was very, very emotional and personal for me as a former and current business owner in our mess. So because I run a residential program for people with special need. So I just want to say I got a lot out of doing this in a positive way. I'm very excited for showcasing BIPOC businesses. That's good. And it seems like we're going to get a lot out of it as well as a result of your work and the so on and others. Thank you for doing all this as well. We have a motion that's been seconded. We have some discussion. Unless there's any other discussion, I'd like to bring this to a vote. Those in favor of going forward with this proposal as it stands. Can you raise your hand? Okay. I don't have a camera right now, but I agree with you. See, Darius, this is thinking about older people and younger people. We can see you, but we got our eye on you, man. So thank you. Ms. Bowman, I didn't see a hand. Mr. Vernon Jones. Oh, I was just hoping we could ask for Ms. Bowman's photo. It'd be nice to say this was unanimous if possible. Yeah. It'd be great. My hands up. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Gotcha. Thank you all very much. Thanks. Thanks a lot of you. You put so much time and effort into this. It's a very worthwhile cause. It's moving us in the direction we're trying to go in the spirit of this work we're doing. So this is great. We're going to move my agenda around here a little bit. The bid process, phase one and phase two. I'd like to turn that over. Immediately, we did receive a document regarding this work, and I'd like to turn it over to the folks who are currently involved in the follow-up and hopefully engage our committee in the discussion of our next steps. So, Mr. Vernon Jones and... Well, all right. Let me try to report on our subcommittee meeting and ask Ms. Walker to interrupt me, correct me as I go. So, let's see. Let's start with phase one. Phase one, the invitation for bid is out now. It's out as a single IFB that people can bid on any or all of the three sections. And it calls for a complete report finished by April 2nd on the Alternative Community Safety Services and for a completed report on outreach and community input by April 30th and the contracts, if granted, would end no later than May 1st. And it might be all one firm or it might be separate firms for the different pieces. Mr. Delaney did receive a comment from a national firm, a potential bidder, that they believe based on their experience working with other communities that the work we've described in the phase one IFB would normally be done over six months to a year. So, our subcommittee thinks it's possible that we will not receive any bids or that the bids we receive will be high. And we realize we never had a conversation about how much we are able or willing to spend on the phase one. And if we get bids, we will need to be deciding pretty quickly about that. The general feeling on our subcommittee was that the community outreach is a bigger and longer process even than we've put in or allowed time for in this bid. And we think maybe more time and more money are needed for that. But at the same time, we don't want to miss the opportunity to create a pilot project for alternative safety services and to get in funding requests for next year's budget. So, we see those as high priorities regardless of what we do or don't get for bids and even though we think we need more money and time to do it a good job of it. Then we drafted, and I think it's, I think it's sent to everybody, the scope of work for phase two IFB. And again, we put this together and then we looked at it and it seemed like a huge amount of work again that would take more time and perhaps more money than we have. So, I think we like our description of what needs to be done. And we don't really know what to recommend about timelines. We had some question about whether funds beyond the 80,000 might be available from the held police positions or whether there was a way to carry some of this over into the next budget year so that money from the next budget year could be accessed. Let's see. There's a lot more I could say, but let me leave it there and ask Alicia and Ms. Pat to add or comment or differ. I'll let Alicia go first. Okay, sorry. I was trying to think of what else I could add. I think Mr. Vernon Jones touched all of the main points of our conversation from last week and I think those were the things that we wanted to bring back to the whole group for discussion. So, I don't know unless there's something else in this path out of that we missed. I think I actually wanted to hear what the rest of the group thought about that because I think we had a lot of discussion as to how the subcommittee felt about those things. So, I just want to hear as to the rest of the group where everybody sits with those things. So, I'll go. I think Mr. Ross, you captured what we discussed. I think, I'm not sure if it was a consensus, but we were also thinking about deferring phase two for now, like we were looking into fall. Was that correct? Was that resonate with both of you? No, I shouldn't say fall, but let's see what the phase one goes. We also talked about if we didn't get any response or we didn't like the phase one IFP, is there a plan B? Yeah, back up plan and then Mr. Delaney has suggested request for quote. Do two of you remember the conversation? Yeah, one possibility if the bids are high or if we don't get any, that we could pick some pieces of work, maybe a more limited pilot outreach project for now and maybe a piece of research about alternative community services and simply request quotes from three suppliers and then you have to take the little quote. Let me just mention two other things that we did talk about. One was, while we see a need for more funds, we did not feel that the additional fund should come from monies that might otherwise fund social services, education, climate action, or other town needs. That if, well, we think we need more money, we think it should come from the police budget because it really is about policing or what has been policing in the past. And the other is that we have a feeling that the term of either the term of our group should be extended to fulfill the work beyond June or our work should immediately be picked up by a new citizen review commission fully empowered and funded to continue our work for racial justice and community safety on an ongoing basis. Thank you. Remember all that. Well, so one more thing. Didn't Mr. Delaney talk about getting another written question beside one? There was two questions that he received. Right? Oh, yes. What was the other one? Can I interrupt while you're thinking that I was on mute and I was trying to recognize this moment and I apologize. I was on mute so you didn't hear me, but she had her hand up after Mr. Vernon Jones' comment. So go ahead, Ms. Pullman. Sorry about that. So what I'm wondering is this. Have we, have any, has anybody looked into what, I believe I brought it up last week or something.  Geez. All right. Sorry. There you are. So we were talking last week I mentioned what Denver police were doing. I think it was Denver. And I haven't been keeping up with it more this week, but last week they had only been, it only been implemented like a week earlier. So it was like really new. And it kind of seems to me like we need to look at stuff that can be implemented immediately without having to without having to worry about the bids. Like we need to filter out things that we can, like we can, suggestions that we can make now that doesn't, that doesn't require a lot of research and a lot of work. I mean, there's certain things that it seems like it's pretty straightforward and pretty obvious to me that should not be attending somebody who's having a mental health crisis. That's across the board. That should not be the first person they see. They haven't a mental health crisis. They, the police are not somebody they want to see. They need somebody who's going to help them, who is going to actually assist them in whatever they're going through. So I just, I just, I don't know. I'm just feeling like there's, yeah, there's things that we have to do that are going to take a lot longer. But there's, I feel like we're not looking at the things that we have, that we can do that can be implemented immediately without without research that doesn't require the research and the, you know, in the talking to necessarily talking to the communities or whatever, like, yeah, we need to have an interpreter, you know, come in with, you know, whatever group, you know, if we, you know, if we do a specific company, you know, we need to have maybe, you know, you have to be aware that though that my person speaks, you know, this language or that person speaks that language.  Like, so I think we really need to do that as soon as possible. As we try to refigure, refigure these bids and how like, like recognizing that, yeah, we might not get these bids, we might not be able to, like they might be asking for way more money, so on and so forth. Okay. But we have to be doing something now. And I think that's where I think your, I think your comments, Ms. Bowen are exactly where we're at at this point. I mean, I, if the subcommittee working on this is saying that we might be hitting a bit of a stall or a roadblock in certain ways. So what, what we do on an interim basis to keep momentum going and keep things right. So I don't want to speak any more to that because Ms. Ferrer, you had your hand up and I want to let you know I'm listening. I just yeah, okay. Ms. Ferrer and then Ms. Moisten. Yeah, I mean, I think I agree with Ms. Sashina too, in terms of what she was saying.  And, you know, and I think obviously you all met beforehand, there's more information and I'll share more information with us. But I think, I think we need to go stage by stage, right? We haven't, we don't have the bids back. So we don't know what we're going to get, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, so for my thing is like, I think we need to kind of, okay, let's, let's see what we get, right? Because I've gotten some, some, some folks, because I've been putting it out there and I've gotten some folks that are interested and they're planning to, to do stuff with it, you know, because I sent them to Anthony, I was like, go ask them and stuff like that, you know, but I know there's interest there. So my thing is, let's just wait and see, you know, what happens with phase one, right? And then phase two, the same thing, I think we need to put it out there. That's one, right? Two is in terms of what Ms. Bowman said, which is, you know, even if we don't get anyone, we need to get this work done. This is the opportunity that we have.  And I, obviously, we need to talk more about it. But that's that part that we need to discuss. And then, you know, the other part that I think about is, is, you know, and obviously, that's more for Mr. Bowman, you know, how much money do we have, you know, is it $40,000 because you had said $80,000 or $40,000 for phase one is the $40,000 for phase two. But also, I know we're giving these $25, you know, gift cards, I don't know if that's coming out of a different pot. And so then, you know, so I guess we need to have a conversation around that budget and stuff like that. But I think we can't put the copper for the horse type of thing. I just say, let's keep going, you know, and if, and if, you know, we don't have, if we don't get the consultants, we still need to make some recommendations. And then let's see about whether we need to extend it. I don't know if we're there yet. I'm not ready to say that I need to extend work to fall and so on and so forth. I still need a lot more information to kind of figure that out. Thank you, Ms. Moisten. I think you had your hand up then, Ms. Owen. Yeah. So just quickly, there's a lot of things. So we have a budget in our, in our account that's $80,000. So out of $80,000, your stipends all come out of that. The gift card program will come out of that as well. And if the ambassador program, well, I don't think that the ambassador program will move forward as of yet. But if that was to come out of it, you have to keep in mind, even if we do have a consultant that that the ambassador program has to be funded through those funds as well. So that's one piece of it too. As of yet, Anthony hasn't received any more inquiries, and he hasn't received any bids submitted.  So there's that possibility there. Also, the third thing was that there was a group who wanted to know if they could work, I don't know, was that the same group that wanted to work outside of the scope of the police department, meaning they pretty much wanted to come in and work on all aspects of systemic racism and anti-racist work, just not limited to the community safety working groups charge of the police department. So, and then they asked the budget question, which Anthony was like, I suggest that we not respond to that because of the nature that it was. So, you know, I agree with Ms. Fiera and Ms. Bowman that you guys do need to keep moving, right? Because one of the things that gets really frustrating about town boards and committees is you hit roadblocks like everywhere, and then the momentum kind of stops. And so you have to keep the momentum going. And I don't think that it's out of our reach or out of our touch bid or no bid completed or not, that we start thinking about the different things and the different ways that we can make recommendations, right? Because we still have to bring those to the consultant. Like the things that we want to see happen, we still have to bring to the consultant. So either way, we have to think about those. And again, I'm still very, very firm in believing that you have to put stuff in place. This group needs to put stuff in place so that if this group was not to be there, that the work would still be getting done, right? And one of the ways of that happening is definitely going to be like community safety doesn't just end, right? Like it just doesn't end because somebody wrote us a charge that says we're going to go to this date. And now whether it's you guys or another group of people, the community safety working group, I would suggest, you know, and you guys can think about this, that the work continues on. I also think that the police oversight committee that needs to happen because there are two different aspects of dealing with the work. One is dealing directly with the police department and one is dealing with the community safety aspect, which is a little bit broader than that group. So then it comes into budget. We have to have recommendations with somebody who's submitted with the consultant or without a consultant, we have to have recommendations in for a budget. I don't really know that piece. I was a little bit astonished when they started throwing out numbers of what the consultant may charge or might not charge to do this type of work. So I was like, wow. So we definitely need a larger budget and it's we're in a hard time because we are everybody's being affected right now by COVID. So I just really would suggest that you guys start thinking about having the community safety working group at minimum work longer so that whether it's you guys or a new board comes about with the same guidelines that it has to be so three quarters by Parker. I'm not quite sure what the actual status of this group is, but I think it's like eight out of 11 members have to be BIPOC community members. But that way that the bids, if they're not met by budget time, can be deferred to the FY22 budget and perhaps that that FY22 budget will give us, will have more because we'll have what we had left over plus more funds hopefully that have been recommended from the recommended to the council. Thank you, Ms. Owen. Ms. Moystein answered my question. Okay, I did want to comment on this too. And I'm sorry, Mr. Vernon Jones, you want to go ahead and I will comment after you. Why don't you go first? I'll go next. I just wanted to say that I think, you know, some of the things I heard from you, Mr. Vernon Jones and from Ms. Walker is, is that, you know, we're aware, certainly Ms. Moystein too, you know, we're aware that things don't necessarily run, you know, in lockstep towards some logical end here for what needs to happen. And that we'd be remiss. I think if we didn't sort of, you know, put some benchmarks out there to when we're going to, you know, put in place some contingency plans in case this happens or that happens or the next happens. I'm kind of in line with what Ms. Ferrera is saying is that we do have a big process that's ending on the 22nd. And so maybe that's a benchmark, but in advance of the benchmark, you know, what kind of contingencies are we thinking about going forward? Is it a longer commitment from the community service safety working group? Is it, is it, you know, maybe engaging the ambassadors in a different way, pre-consultant, for example, is it going into, you know, some preliminary recommendations about dealing with mental health interventions and things of that nature that Ms. Bowman is talking about. So I think along the way, I think we're seeing that there's a running parallel to getting a person on board to help us from a consultative, a consultative role, running parallel to that is a timeline to get some things done in an efficient and effective manner. So how we do that, you know, has to be part of a discussion we're having. And I'm just labeling a contingency planning because we have to be ready in case A doesn't happen, what's B going to look like.  So not to belabor that, but Mr. Britton Jones. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm kind of where Ms. Bowman is about looking at this Denver program. They've actually, they've, they started last June. So they've just, they finished six months. And, you know, we have a link to an article. I would love it if our next meeting was partly dealing with whatever we did or didn't get in the bid, and that the rest of it, we, if we could come to the meeting having already read this little article about Denver, it's not long or complicated. And really, actually brainstorm what are our recommendations, even if we don't agree about everything, get down a list of what is it we think alternative, you know, are we ready to decide? Is it part of the police department? Is it contracted out? Is it a separate town department? We might be ready to make that decision about a recommendation. Some other things, you know, does it include dealing with the schools or not? Maybe we're ready, maybe we're not, but we could begin to actually write down what in our current understanding, what is it we would like to create? Because I, you know, I think we want to create it sooner rather than later. And I want to do all the kind of visioning Dr. Love talked about. But meanwhile, we need a parallel track, I think really putting together the beginnings of recommendation. Some preliminary recommendations, you know, may certainly be in order. And I think we're easy edging up on that, because we know a lot already. And I think just, and then I'll go to you, Mr. Bachman, I'm sorry, but I think we're, you know, we have to keep in mind that there's also this there's a parallel function going on in the town, you know, with the budget and how it's planned and how this is going to be impacted. So, you know, keeping, keeping that sort of background music, if you will, in our in our in our view, that, you know, some of the decisions we make, even in a preliminary way, may be impacting budget, next budget, future budget, we don't know. So I guess that's a roundabout way of agreeing with what I'm hearing from the group as well. Mr. Bachman. Thank you. So I think it's important to look at the charge of the committee, why why the working group was established and the working group was established with sort of a short short short term, medium term. And I think Dr. Love brought up sort of a longer term goal. And I think this longer term goal isn't articulated in the charge, but you might want to say we should put that into the charge. I have to make renovations, I have to make revisions to the charge anyway, because some of the dates are changed. So in the charge, it talks about investigating alternative models such as the Eugene Kahootz program, the Albuquerque Community Safety Alternative program, and the Denver Star program. Looking at three things, those are the three things that we knew about back in, you know, September when we wrote the charge, like that's those things are out there, they're being used in actual communities. It's interesting to see that the Denver Star program is actually up and running. So they have some evidence that we can draw on. So the short term thing is to the working group has to deliver a report on the alternative options to public safety services currently provided by the Amherst Police Department. And that's the short term goal. And that's something we'd like to be able to implement this fiscal year. And that's why, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't touch the $80,000, it would come from different source of funds for that. That's why we've held those two positions, the Police Department vacant, if there were something that we wanted to fund out of this, it would come from those funds. The second, the sort of medium range goal is the recommendations for resident oversight and policy reforms for the Amherst Police Department. That's the oversight commission or whatever. That's, there's no requirement to get that finished until June 30. So that's sort of a medium range goal. And that's, that's the bigger conversation you've sort of established. And then the bigger goal is the whole dismantling structural racism. That's the Dr. Love talked about, which you might say, you know what, and we want to put, we think this should be on the part of our budget for next year as well. And whether it's this group, and you say, we want to extend our charge, or if you said, we want to create a different group to lead that. That's, that's, I think the bad thing about a different group leading is that it takes time for the group to get organized and set up. If you are all willing to continue, that would be a powerful thing. The police oversight commission would be a different group. That'd be a, if you're looking at something like that, that'd be a permanent committee that would have to be established with a charge. But I think, you know, I think it's important to wait for the bids to come in, because that's the path we walk down. But then soon after that, I think it's worth it to start looking at these alternative models that are out there. And in the next month, you know, the next three or four meetings, do the research, come back, discuss them, line them up and see what are the elements we'd like of each one, and what can we start to offer here as a town, so that we can implement it before June 30th, even. So my thought says, I think, I think you're in a really good spot. I think we've gone through a ton of information gathering and processing, and now you're ready to start to act. And I think you're really poised to do the work for a real work product to come out. But I would just encourage you to look back at the charge about why you were created and how do we get to the end zone. Thank you very much. So this is clearly a very focused discussion we're going to have to have. And I think, maybe Mr. Vernon Jones, you suggested an agenda item, which included a discussion like this in addition to the reading of the article about the Denver Intervent Initiative that they're taking. We could include that on our next agenda, and could, should in this case. And then that would incorporate all of these ideas that are coming in with the goal of setting forward some next steps as referred to, you know, by Mr. Backelman in terms of helping us, you know, get this organized. And looking back, you know, certainly at our, you know, our purpose and our charge, I think those are important things to do. If that's agreeable to everyone, I would like to support that going on the agenda for next time. And what I'd like to do to stimulate that and inform that discussion is really put out a brief blurb to the group based on this conversation about what are some of the considerations we want to undertake during this conversation at our next meeting. And, you know, of course you have input into that as well, but I would initiate something as a catalyst to the discussion to see how it fits with what people are thinking right now. And then we can engage in that process at our next meeting. I think it's an important piece. And then it also follows the 22nd deadline of our, the bid process. So we will have other information at that time. Any comments? Yay or nay on that? Thumbs up. Thumbs down. Thumbs up. Okay. Being happy to do that. I'm also conscious of the time right now. It gets left to 730. And we are trying to aim at 730. If there are any other comments about this, I'll take maybe one or two other comments and then we'll move forward so we can continue with our meeting. Ms. Moyston. Yep. So I just, Anthony wanted to, this is an email that he sent for you guys to be seen by you. So who will be helping him when it comes to the evaluations of the bids on Monday? He would like to know who that is. The opening is at 2 p.m. on Monday and then there's the Zoom link, but I can re-forward that out. I'm supposed to be helping him, I believe, because this is to start assessing the bids, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was supposed to help, and I think Ms. Pat volunteered as well. Okay. That's what I have in mind, Nosa, that was Ms. Bowman and Ms. Pat were to do that. What do they have to do, Ms. Moyston? What do they need to know? What do they need to do in preparation for that? They hear from Mr. Delaney? No, I don't know that they need to necessarily do anything. You're going to, apparently it's going live on Zoom, so you'll be attending that meeting and I will forward your contact information to Anthony so he can include you guys. Mr. Vernon Jones. We do have an understanding that at this point that we're not going to accept a bid until our whole committee sees it, or is there some amount of money or division of work that should happen sooner? I think that there's a parameter that what we're doing is assessing and figuring out whether the bids fit in with the parameter of what we're looking at, what we're looking for, and then, from what I understand, then we would present it to the group and figure out which bid we're taking. If I don't know, Mr. Backelman, you could.  Yeah, so I think, so what will happen on Monday is the group will gather and it's just, you're literally opening envelopes and he'll do that in public so everybody can see it and anybody can watch them do that. And then you read what the price is and then the content is shared out so people can review it. You probably won't do your assessment right then and there. I'm not sure how Anthony will, if it depends how complex the documents are, he probably will create a file that everybody will take home and start to review it. Ultimately, it'll be, I think it's really looking for, the town manager is the warning authority, but it's going to be the full working group that's going to say, here's what we want to do with this. We want to accept a bid. We don't want to accept a bid. This process is for the low bid to be accepted. If it meets all the criteria, like Ms. Bowman said, if it hits all the criteria, then you need to award the low bid or reject them all, if you want. So Mr. Backelman, so the two members of our working group who are in this process on the group's behalf will be at the opening of these things. They will see these bids. And at that point, he said a file is opened up. Who reviews that file beyond the Ms. Pat and Ms. Bowman? I think Ms. Pat and Ms. Bowman will talk with Anthony about the proposals as well as much as they can digest at that time. I don't know if it's going to be like a 60 page proposal or a two page proposal, sort of hard to judge. But ultimately, it'll go back to the full committee. That's what I wanted to do. Would it be available to the full committee by Wednesday? Oh, sure. The next day. And that's also any discussion around that would be public. Okay. So given that, we should probably get that on our agenda too as well. Mr. Vernon Jones and then Ms. Pat. Well, only that if we're going to talk about it on Wednesday, it would help some of us to be able to be reading it Tuesday night. Exactly. So the sooner we could all get copies of things, the better we'll do in our meeting, I think. Yeah. I think you'll be able to get it before the end of close of business on Monday. Great. It opens at two o'clock. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess so what we're going to be getting though are only the ones that Ms. Pat and Ms. Ashina have kind of and Anthony have looked at though, right, to see that they meet me and they're like the lowest or whatever. I thought that they would have to meet the reference. I don't think we need to all look at everything though, because what's the point of having them then I thought they were going to kind of sift through and just bring us the ones that meet what we asked them for. Yeah. So from what I was understanding is that we're opening them, they're getting open so that we can look at what the lowest bid is. And then we look at the lowest bid, whatever the lowest bid is, we have to verify their references. That's what it is. So there's a verification process, but once they're all open, they're still there for people to view. It's just that we're at that point we're saying, okay, whose references check and then if anything from what I'm, what I gather is that we would be presenting the lowest bid references all check out to the group. The rest of them technically not that they don't matter, but they don't matter because we're taking the lowest the lowest bid whose references check out, that's who we're taking. Hey, yeah, that's what was my understanding. That's right. Yeah, right. Ms. Pat and then Mr. Bergell. So Ms. Bowen just said exactly what I was about to say. In addition to the lowest bidder, we also need to check out the references. And then we present according to the IFB requirements. We pick the most eligible one to the larger group on Wednesday. Meanwhile, like on Tuesday, you guys might will be able to get a document to review so that it will be easier to discuss on Wednesday. Like Ms. Ferrara stated, I don't see the point of everybody saying, say we got like 10 bidders. No, it will not be time efficient at all. If the whole group have to review 10 bidders, for example. So that's the whole point of having subcommittee review the lowest is very straightforward. Lowest bidder and checking out the references and then, you know, presenting it to the general committee on Wednesday. Mr. Bergell. Well, I agree. We don't need to second guess you on checking out the references. That's your department. However, because we will have invited bidders to bid for each of the three pieces separately, we really need to it may all be the same, but we need to know the lowest bid for each of the three pieces as well as the lowest bid for the total. And if that's four different groups, we need to know whether all of them meet the reference requirements or not. Yes. And I guess I'm getting back to the point of the timing of this going to work for us by Wednesday. Ms. Walker. So I'm just wondering what exactly the verification of references entails. Are they going to be just reading because we asked for written recommendations, so are they just going to be reading them over? Are they also going to contact the employers? Or do we have like certain questions we would ask? Or are we just simply reading the letters of recommendation? My understanding is that in addition to the written references that we need to call folks. And I'm hoping we'll be able to get hold of them by Tuesday before our big meeting on Wednesday. Like Mr. Wiley has said, do we have enough time by Wednesday? Do we want to move our meeting on Thursday? Is that more reasonable so that we make sure that we get referenced? We actually speak to people. What do people think about moving our meeting on Thursday? Before we entertain that question more broadly, Ms. Walker, you had your hand up again. Sorry. No, it's okay. Thank you. I was just wondering, though, when you call the people for the references, are you just saying just to confirm that you guys sent a positive reference to us? Or are we asking them specific questions? Or we're just confirming that they are the ones who sent us the letter? Rare. Yeah. So usually, I mean, with reference checks, even though they sent the letter, what you want to do is you want to review the letter. And then usually through the letter, you have certain things that you want more clearance on or you have more questions on. And those are the things. And what you want to do is obviously kind of like have a set of questions, you know, make sure that, you know, pretty much the questions are pretty similar, you know, throughout for the candidates so that it's not unfair, you're posing more difficult questions for one over the other, even though this is all like, it's going to be only one bit, right? The lowest bid. So I don't think you have that issue. But if they have two references, you just have to make sure that those two references, you know, you're asking pretty similar questions to the two references, and then kind of going beyond that, right? To clarify, to dig in. And if that's the reason for those phone calls, because like I said, I mean, I've not hired people based on those phone calls, because what they send in a lot of times is just kind of like embellishment a lot of times, you know, so you might want to have to dig a little bit deeper. That's bad. So for, I mean, I do hire in all the time and I check for references. And I, you know, I haven't spoken to Mr. Delaney. I am assuming that when we pick the lowest bidders that three or fours will come up with specific questions that we will ask so that it will be fair to our potential choice. So it will be the same question, but we haven't created any questions yet. So I'm hoping we'll be able to do that at some point on Monday after the opening of the envelopes. As my thinking, it will not just be to answer Alicia's question, it won't be a random question just like that. It has to be written down and we have to be fair in case we have three different bids or even four with lowest bid. So we have to be consistent with our questions. Ms. Walker. Okay. Thank you for the clarification. And then I would just also be wondering, is that something that Mrs. Pat and Ms. Bowman would be able to collaborate and come up with themselves before the opening of the bids on Monday? Or is that something we would have to build more time into our plan for? And then also just a reminder that if we are thinking about pushing back our meeting next week, that our proposed kickoff meeting in the bid invitation is next Thursday. So I think that we should see what what the references are and what the information they give us in the references before we come up with a set of questions. Because then we have an idea of like what this person's saying, okay, but they said A, B, and C. So we need to understand where they're coming from from A, B, and C or what specifically they're talking about with A, B, and C. So I think that I don't think it makes sense to be making questions before we even presented in front of us. If that makes any sense. Ms. Walker, I mean, I'm sorry, Ms. Pat. Ms. Bowman, that's a good suggestion. I am wondering if it's okay with the group if the subcommittee can come up with some of the questions. Because I remember when we were working on phase one, we were very particular about making sure that bidders will have experience on anti-racism work and things like that. I'm wondering if it's okay for the three of us again to come up with some few questions that Ms. Bowman, myself and Anthony could use before Monday. I just have a question about that though. Okay. You guys outlined in the bid what you were looking for, right? Yes. So if you outlined it in the bid, they should all all the reference the references they receive should already be answering those basic questions. Not necessarily. Sometimes they don't. Right. But that's where we come up with other questions to go into it and to get to dig deeper. And like, so when they're when they're presenting their bid, they're trying to answer the question, they're trying to answer the qualifications that we already laid out for them. If it's unclear, then we would further if they're the lowest bid. So this is all based upon if they're the lowest bid. If they're not the lowest bid, like I said, they don't need it doesn't even matter. But if they're the lowest bid, then we you and me produce questions that fit that bid that that person's done to see if that bid is actually the references for that bid actually matter. So I really think that the questions need to be specific to the bid. We have to be because sometimes people who put on bid if they don't get it, they have the right to find out why, you know, other person got it. So we have to be consistent with that process. If we're going to ask people a question, it has to be the same for we're not as bidders. We're not asking different questions. We're looking at the lowest bid. The first the first answer to why you didn't get the bid is because you weren't the lowest. The next question is because your references didn't pan out. It's it's it's it's you know, it's very I feel like it's very specific to each person each person is bidding like nothing matters. In first place, nothing matters except the lowest bid. That's the first thing that matters. Yes, I want to if I may if I may interject here, you know, Mr. Bachman, that is the case. Is that true? If it's a low bid, then you're looking at that one. And this is I think echoing I think what Miss Bowman is saying, too. If that's a low bid, then you're looking through that lens of that low bid. If that low bid doesn't sufficiently answer the questions, or maybe there are some marginal things or clarifications, at that point, the you know, Ms. Ms. Pat and Ms. Bowman create the kind of inquiry that would shed some light on on this on this bid as to whether or not we would want to pursue it or not. Is that accurate? That's that's accurate. If you if it meets the criteria, the low bid wins. There's no discretion involved. So then in that. Okay, Mr. Vernon Jones. Well, again, just to remember, there's discretion about whether we take both the community outreach and the alternative services or whether we just take one. And yeah. Yeah. And also, Mr. Anthony also advised us that if we're not even satisfied with any of the bidders, we can just close it. We don't have to do anything. And then our backup plan would be to actually solicit consultants in the community, like three, and actually reach out to them and say send us quote. What you think this this project will cost will be our backup plan. If we're not happy with any of the bids on Monday, we're told we have that option. Am I making sense to people? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I know it's a lot to digest that. It's a lot to digest. And but also it's it's also it's it's pretty concrete. You know, we're looking at an event that's happening on Monday. And you know, we have to we have to deal with that. And I I think that the thing for me is I'm saying, you know, once that event happens, and those bids are opened, and they look that we have to somehow take that information and and funnel it through our process, you know, as a group, to see if this is the direction we want to go. And I think I'm just a little concerned about the timeframe. I have no no problem with saying, you know, to miss miss Bowman and and and miss Pat to look at that and create some further questions for inquiry. I don't have any issue with that. None at all. I started wondering anything about contingencies. One, what if we come up with all that information on Monday night. And the calls are made, you know, Monday afternoon and Monday night, those calls are made and we can't reach the the references. And we can't reach the references on Tuesday. And then we were scheduled some time on Wednesday to talk about this, we're going to be up against the wall. So I'm, I guess I'm worried a little bit about the timeframe on how to process this, because we don't want to rush into this as a decision. Miss Pat, let me ask people this, are people okay for do we want to even meet next week? Say that again, if people want, do we want to meet next week? If, you know, we don't know if we're going to actually, you know, talk to the references before Thursday or Wednesday, do we want to meet next week? It doesn't matter to me. You mean as a community service safety working group? Yes. Yeah, Mr. Vernon Jones, we have some. Miss Walker, Sandra was up before mine. I'm sorry, go ahead, Miss Walker. No, it's okay. I just wanted to just loop back and reiterate the fact that in the bid proposal, our kickoff meeting with the consultant group is next Thursday. So I'm not sure how we would address that, or if I just don't know what we do about that, because we already have that as a meeting. Mr. Vernon Jones? Well, I absolutely think we need to meet next week. If only to get started on the alternative services discussion. And I think it's unlikely that we're going to be able to meet with the bidder on Thursday, despite what it says in the bid, because we haven't decided whether we're taking any bid or whether we're doing all of it or pieces of it or, and I don't see how we make that this, I mean, I guess if we met Wednesday and then met again Thursday with the bidder. Yeah, I don't, I miss Ms. Rarrow. I'm sorry, you had your hand up and then Ms. Walker. I mean, I think that that's the thing. I think that, you know, what I will, Mr. Vernon Jones, we need to meet next week, you know, on whatever Wednesday or what have you to talk about the other issues that we talk about with the recommendations and so on and so forth, our charge. But I think we need to have some flexibility. Obviously, I think we put that in the bid saying we'd meet on Thursday, but if we haven't finished vetting the candidates by then we can't meet with them on Thursday, you know. So I think we just need to talk to Mr. Delaney off, I don't know if it's with you, Mr. Bachman, just to kind of see how we would tweak that and send that message out, because when we can't be rushed into anything, you know what I'm saying? I mean, we could discuss on Wednesday if we do have, well, how do we do it? Because again, I'm not very familiar with the bid. So because I was gonna say on Wednesday, could we discuss some, you know, what we have or no, then we would just be able to tell the next week or maybe do a special meeting at the end of the week or something like that, because we'd want to keep the things moving, you know, but we can't just rush into making a decision. Ms. Walker and then Mr. Vernon Jones. I agree with Mrs. Ferrara and I think so what I would propose or think would be helpful is we should definitely meet next week, maybe if we can bump it to Thursday in hopes that we may have information, because I mean, best case scenario, we reach out to the references and we get them on the first try. And then on Thursday, we're ready to talk about it. And that would be great. And if not on Thursday, we'll talk about the recommendations for alternative safety services, services, which I think we should do either way. But I think we should have both of those things on the agenda for next week and maybe just push out the meeting a day in anticipation that we may have answers or we may come to find that we don't have any bids and we can discuss that then also thereafter, just so that we give that time to work out if it is going to work out. And then my other question would be, I'm not sure how important dates are in the bidding process. So if that would be something we would have to submit another addendum for, or if we can just, once we find a consultant, even if it's after the kickoff date, discuss it with them at that point, or if we would have to submit something on the bidding website saying this is actually not our kickoff date. I think we should. I concur with that thinking, Mr. Vernon Jones and then Ms. Pat. Well, I'm inclined to have us meet Wednesday. Maybe we'll have everything. We'll certainly have everything except the confirmation of the references. And then maybe also post a meeting for Thursday when we would just come back and say, yeah, we got the references, the decision we made Wednesday, we can go ahead with or no, the references didn't check out. So now we got to do something different. Whatever main meeting on Wednesday and just if we don't have references, then we come back Thursday and make that decision. And if we don't need that meeting, we don't, we don't keep it, but we got them both posted. Ms. Bowman. Oh, wait a minute. Did I skip somebody there? It was nice. It's okay. Bowman can go. Ms. Bowman. Go ahead. So I agree with Mr. Vernon Jones. I really think that we should proceed as, like as planned and really, you know, between me and Ms. Pat and I forgot the other guy saying, I'm sorry. But we, we do what we need to do on Monday and try to, you know, Monday and Tuesday and try to get what we need to get done. And then, oh, I forgot where to go. And then proceed. And then if we need to push it up, then we need to push it. But I think I don't, I think one of the thought processes that we're going to be, I think we're, we're putting, we're making it harder than it needs to be. The most difficult part of accepting this bid is not their references check out. And, and we're, like we said before, we're accepting the lowest, we're not accepting, but we're the only bid we're, we're really looking into and reviewing is the lowest bid. Then we go on to the next bid. And hopefully the next, if we, if we have to move to the next bid, then that's, then we will do that. But I think that for the time being, I'm not sure that it's necessary to push the meeting right now. I don't know, that's just my opinion. Well, let me take, let me take one, the last two comments, let's move this forward because I think we're kind of circling around the, the, the fire here and we're going to have our next meeting anyway on Wednesday. So let's, let's make sure we do that. I don't know who was first, Ms. Patter, Mr. Vernon. I was just going to say that I don't want anybody to think that I'm suggesting that we don't meet next week. Any day is actually, you know, fine with me. I'm very flexible with my schedule. So, you know, Wednesday is fine. I just wanted to. I just want to say in my experience, if you can't get a hold of somebody's references on Tuesday, you contact the bidder and say you're at risk of losing the bid because we can't get your references. Most bidders will get their references available on Wednesday morning. I would suggest that we, you know, go ahead with our regular scheduled meeting on Wednesday. I'd also suggest that, you know, going back, that, you know, we do double posting. I don't want to leave ourselves at risk of not being able to discuss this during the week, but if we had a posted meeting on Wednesday Tuesday, we post a meeting for Thursday. And then, you know, that could be that Thursday meeting could be a very straightforward, simple task. But we'll have a chance to thoroughly go through that on Wednesday in a more thorough discussion. And we'll know a lot more on Wednesday than we certainly know right now. So that's what I'd like to propose. Thumbs up. Okay. So, let's do that. And while we're on that, I'm skipping over a little bit because we're way over time and I apologize, but it seemed like this was a necessary conversation to have. We, where'd I go here? I'd like to postpone that discussion about the BIPOC, I'm sorry, the list of BIPOC organizations to our Wednesday meeting so we can devote some concentrated time on that.  And in addition to the response to the bid on Wednesday and those two things and then the discussion about the alternative, I forgot the wording that I heard, potential alternative services, is that it? That yeah, something like that. I'll be more coherent after I get some sleep tonight, but you know, anyway, but those three things will be on our agenda for next Wednesday and remind people to get agenda items if there are any others to Ms. Moisten by Monday at one o'clock for the Wednesday meeting. I just, I only have two of the things. I have add the BIPOC list to the agenda and the potential alternative services conversation. Was there a third thing because you'd mentioned three? Just, I guess, just an update of where we are with the process that's going on on Monday for our, with Ms. Pat and Ms. Bowman. So that said, thank you. Are there any other, any upcoming events Ms. Owen? I wanted to remind you guys all about the domestic violence workshop with safe passages tomorrow. I did get a chance to talk with the facilitators of that conversation workshop a little bit before this meeting. She is on board with recording the meeting. If the other volunteers or people attending are comfortable with it just because they're doing a breakout room as part of the workshop and she wants to make sure that it's a safe space and that people are comfortable with being recorded. I'll bring it up next week when we talk about alternative safety services because I do think that we need to consider looking into the support that's available in the community for victims of domestic violence. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's important work. Next meeting dates, we've already stated that we're going to go next Wednesday and next Thursday with postings agenda recommendations on Monday and Tuesday of next week. That all clear? Okay, we're good there. Any other topics? I think we've discussed about everything today, but Ms. Pat. Yeah, so I just want to really thank Ms. Moisten and the Town of Armist and Human Recognition for putting together an event last night and if you guys have a chance, I will really encourage you to watch it. Is that on YouTube or on the website about Black families? It was really interesting to listen to Ms. Moisten growing up in Armist, so I would encourage people to watch it. I think I read somewhere that she was also recognized for rising municipal employee or something like that, somewhere. Can we get this? Thank you, Pat. I also read that she'll be speaking at Chamber of Commerce next week. Yes, and I was on the Mill District live this afternoon, so I'm just letting you guys know. It's like everywhere, so I just want to appreciate her. She's everywhere. Thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you. Thank you for encouraging that too. Yeah, she's great if she's paying you a fee. Everywhere. I said she's everywhere.  Anyway, it's late. It's late. It's late. It's very, very late. Thank you. I have a recommendation for her. One more thing. Can I suggest that with our suggestion for alternative public safety? Can we submit it before the meeting next week instead of? You can submit things to Ms. Moisten that go into the packet for next week to be sure. That's what I'm saying. I'm suggesting that perhaps we should all submit to Ms. Moisten before the meeting. Our recommendation to save time instead of us just, you know. I got you. I'm sorry. Yeah, we're stopping at the meeting. I don't know. Does that work protocol wise, Ms. Moisten? Sure. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.  It's got to be in a little clear, you know, certainly to get out to everybody so we can read them. Yeah. Read the recommendations. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. So thank you all. I don't wait. So by when do you want those in then? I guess we need to know that when you say early enough by when. Well, anything that we want to be reading before our Wednesday meeting, is that where we're going, Ms. Pat? I mean, I just want to make sure we get them early enough so that they get through Ms. Moisten to be distributed to the group so we can read them before the meeting. And I typically send you guys exactly what's in the packet as it comes in versus waiting for the complete packet minus the agenda, right? So if Mr. Vernon Jones sends me something that I know is going to go into the packet, I send it to you guys when I get it, if that makes sense, right? So I guess I'm going to say Friday. How about that? Does that or Monday? Friday is always works for me. Is that enough time? Monday for me. Monday. Yeah. Monday. Can we do Monday before too? Like, that way we, you know, the subcommittee for, yeah, so we have time to focus on that one. Monday by noon time. That's fine. Are you asking the group? Yes. Yep. That works for me. That's fine. Thumbs up, everybody. Let's give her an answer. So, okay. Thank you all. I welcome a motion then to adjourn. Move for adjourn. Thank you. Second? Seconded. Ms. Ferreira. Thank you all. Meeting is adjourned. It's 8.09 p.m. Thank you all for your hard work, all your questions and thoughtfulness, and we'll get busy next week. Thank you. Have a great night. Good night, everyone.