Welcome to Healthy Planet, the show for people who care about their health and the health of our planet on the ThinkTech Livestreaming Network series. I'm your host, Dr. Grace O'Neill. Joining me today is Kiyoki Sender, scuba enthusiast and marine life photographer. Today, we're going to talk about Hawaii and other places like Palau, I suppose, marine life. So let's get into it. Kiyoki, how did you get interested in scuba diving and photography? Well, when I was really young, my grandma would take me to the ocean and we would turn over rocks and find shells and my grandpa would catch octopus and my dad used to fish. So I always had an interest in the ocean and the things that lived in it and it just became my career path through college and so it was just always part of me. So how did you get started with scuba certification? So with scuba in my senior year at Kamehameha, they offered scuba for PE and I was not an athlete so I couldn't catch a ball, I couldn't run, I had asthma and so swimming and surfing were the only things that I was into and I said, hey, you know, scuba, that's an easy one to pass so I can go collect shells too so it was a no-brainer and it was free. Yeah, that's good. So that was my introduction to scuba and since then, I have had various jobs using a scuba or working in scuba shops. How about photography? How did you get into photography? So when I was a college student, I was a student employee for the Marine Option Program at Wimmer Community College and every summer we would have a coral reef ecological survey techniques workshop course and part of that course, a big part of it was learning how to identify fish, corals, seaweeds, invertebrates and we had to go through slideshows and write down the scientific names of every species and this was back in the late 1980s, early 1990s when it was all slide film so if you didn't have the slide, you didn't have a picture, you couldn't just go download something, there was no internet so it was either you had it or you didn't have it and so there were some gaps in the collection at the university so I thought it would be a great idea to learn how to use a camera underwater and fill those gaps with pictures so I proposed a student project which was too expensive and got turned down but that same year, when the semester started, I got some grant money from Kamehameha to pay my tuition and pay for books and things and so I spent it on cameras and film and I started doing it from scratch. So what did you start with, what kind of camera did you start with? Well to take photos of fishes you have to have an SLR camera interchangeable lens camera and so I looked into what brands and what models and I got a Pentax just because you could use old lenses, new lenses and it had autofocus so I got the Pentax camera and I bought an iCloud housing with some flashes and I just basically read some books at the library and learned how to set exposure and take pictures and that was just, you know, self-taught. Self-taught, that's great and then did you, I mean how about the housing, how did you figure out what to do with the housing, you just kind of looked up whatever went with the Pentax and... Right, so when I did the research I looked, I was working for a dive shop and so I looked at the catalog and what they were offering and so I just picked the brand of camera that was affordable and that had a matching housing and they were promoting the Pentax kit with the camera and the housing so it was like okay I'll get this one. And then I switched to Canon later on maybe about 15 years in. Yeah and then why are you saying that fish you can only, you can only take with an SLR camera versus a point-and-shoot for instance. Okay so with most compact cameras they have a wide-angle lens or a GoPro the wide-angle lens makes everything look smaller you have to be really close to it and of course if you know fish in Hawaii where they're being speared all the time or chased by tourists the fish run and the rule of photography underwater is to get as close as possible and that means three feet or less so if you imagine a parrot fish there's no way anybody can get within three feet of a parrot fish around here because they're gonna run so if you have a telephoto lens mounted on your camera it has a much narrower angle of view therefore on the frame the fish will fill the frame better it'll look bigger in the picture so an SLR camera allows you to do that. So you're using a zoom lens a lot on the camera or do you just use like a normal macro lens? So it depends I have about five different lenses I would choose from based upon where I'm at and what subjects I would expect to see or what do I want to what kind of images do I want to create so I could use a zoom lens and if I'm on travel and I don't know what I'm going to see or if they say well there's sea fans there's turtles there's sharks and there's nudibranchs sleet slugs so I would use a zoom lens because it can shoot some wide shoot some bigger things close up as well as some smaller things pretty close up but not super super close up it's a kind of a catch all and it's a you know it does everything but not especially great if I know what I want I'll either use a fisheye lens for a whale or I'll use a macro lens with a narrow angle of view for the tiny critters damselfish sea slugs snails those kind of things yeah and I mean the problem is is that you have to choose your lens before you go underwater because you can't change it underwater so that's the difficulty because sometimes you go and you only have the lens and then you're just you just have to make you just have to learn how to use what you got and sometimes I get in the water well I got no good pictures today because I have the wrong lens and that's just why you keep going back in the water every single time because you can go to the same place 10 times and see different things every time and if you start adding the equation of a lens then you even you know you have even more opportunities to to find and see new things do you feel like you know it's possible at all I don't know if you know any of the over-the-counter underwater point and shoot cameras do you know any of them or any of them you know possible like would you recommend any of the over-the-counter point and shoot kind of cameras for people who are just beginning and maybe they just want to get into and they don't want to put a whole lot of money into it yet with an SLR camera and then housing yeah so it is like you say in an SLR housing it's it's a 20 pound beast it's big it's heavy it creates a lot of drag so it's that's a whole it's a big commitment and of course the the money required for that on the other hand you know if you just want to be real simple like traveling and spend less than say five hundred dollars you can get an olympus tg series tg four five six we have one of those two and in a housing but they're waterproof so if you are really really minimal you can just go in with the camera and snorkel and do some shallow scuba with it and you can zoom the lens you can shoot some wide stuff with turtles and then zoom it in and get sea slugs and close-ups of little things on the reef or coral polyps so it's a very versatile system and you can add flashes or close-up lenses or wide-angle lenses you know if you want to upgrade so that is my recommendation olympus tg series and how much is that kind of camera like between three to five hundred dollars if you're buying new or used yeah i guess that's that's a good option for people because you know it is kind of daunting to go with the housing and i mean suppose you did want to buy suppose you did want to completely commit though and because you know with the slr it's great you can use it above ground two and get multiple lenses and then you know if you're already a photographer but you just want to get into the underwater photography what would you say was the most difficult thing for you to get used to with underwater photography um and if there's any mistakes that you made that you can help out other people so they don't make the same mistakes i guess so like i was saying that the trick to getting good underwater photos is to get close to your subject so minimizing the water between you and the subject is going to help to reduce the amount of cloudiness murkiness greenness of the image and also if you're snorkeling you you're in shallow water so there's sufficient sunlight but if you get deeper and deeper the water gets gets bluer and bluer because the sunlight is getting filtered out so as you get into the deeper realm you're going to have to either do a custom light balance or which is technical but or to add a flash to it um when it comes to using a flash if the water is not perfectly clear there's no sand stirred up and there's no bubbles floating around you're going to see a bunch of snowstorm in um in your images and so because of all the particulates so a flash takes some skill too yeah that seems like that would take a lot of skill do you ever bring you know how on land they have people have like the umbrellas and everything or like you know for portrait photography do people do that underwater uh not really so whatever you can carry well if you have if you're a you know the top pros and you have five assistants with five cameras and you can carry the whole you know everything all the boatload of stuff for you of course you're going to get some good pictures but you know the reality is most of us are diving you know with a buddy that's not going to want to carry anything so yeah it's pretty much your yourself contain so you have a a flash with an arm if you have the money for that or you just take the point and shoot and just shoot with the built-in flash um there's there's so many people on instagram that have fantastic sea slug pictures especially in the japanese and they just use the the the stock camera with the stock flash it's just they get great pictures learning how to use your equipment is the trick to getting proficient at it you have to learn what your camera is good at and not good at and focus upon doing uh what it is good at yeah and with the something like the olympus how deep does that go generally like these um i know they won't go you know that deep that's the thing so without the housing i think they can go to say 30 to 40 feet yeah but if you buy the either olympus housing or an ike light housing for it you can take it down to say 150 but as you of course you go deeper or you have the housing you may not have as much flash potential it may not it may affect affect the flash so you will probably want to add on a a flash is there anything you can do if it's murky um to kind of compensate for that or no are there any um so nothing really then well when the water is murky you got to be as close as possible again um but there are tricks you can use in the post processing when you get home on your computer to increase the black point to increase the contrast it'll turn the milkiness into dark shadows that can help but there's a limit to is how much you can get away with without it looking really strange so uh the honest truth is i i shoot everything on my cameras in raw mode and then convert them into usable jpegs with software and i do a lot of manipulation with the contrast the black point and the color balance to to make it look like how my eye perceived it and so it i think on nowadays with digital you have to have the techniques for diving for taking the pictures as well as editing in you know how to present them so how about filters i mean do you use any filters on your camera when you're underwater or you just kind of do you just change the white balance i know someone said you can like just play with the white balance if you have a digital camera you know what do you do to kind of make it not so glued out when you're down below you know when you see the pictures so some of the more expensive point and shoot cameras like the olympus may offer a white like custom white balance uh feature you can try the presets like the underwater mode or the cloudy mode of white balance you can try those things or leave it on automatic and after some experimentation you'll determine which one is best but if you want to be if you're shooting with without flashes just completely with sunlight you can do what's called a custom white balance which basically entails taking a photo of the palm of your hand or a patch of sand or the blue midwater area with no subject in it take that as a reference image and then you go into the camera's menu and say set this this image as my reference for the custom white balance and as long as you're diving with the same light conditions in the same depth range within about 10 feet your your images will come out pretty much how it would be if you had a an orange filter on i don't really use filters it's easy to do a custom white balance not with digital yeah what if you just have like a simple camera though like a gopro because i remember once like it was years ago but you had you got me filters from my gopro so underwater and it worked out very nicely so what would people who just have like a simple gopro you know and they have a house thing for it like what kind of filter would you recommend for that so i would recommend an orange filter for hawaiian conditions you would only use it beyond 20 feet and deeper because there's enough orange light in the sunlight in the shadows it'll be really orange if you leave the filter on in that in the shadows but with video yes filters are usually employed and there's another thing where you can go into the like a gopro and there's a native white balance feature if you use the pro tune options yeah and native mode allows you to go into your software and do the most corrections to the image and get the the colors quite accurate but it does still take some still to learn how to use the software yeah i mean i just got the max so i was um you know when i was snorkeling um i didn't use any filter but it was very shallow most of the time so it was fine you know uh but you know just for people because i mean if you want to record you gonna use something like a gopro right instead of your camera so it's kind of good to know um yeah so um why what i would recommend is uh using a scientific method to to figure out what works with whatever camera you've got and so when you first go in say just pick a like you know take a take a toy or something you know as a subject and try testing three feet two feet one foot away um and same thing for video just do some shots of this and and remember what your camera settings are try different white balances different filters and so you can learn and write those things down on us you know some or take some notes mental notes but don't try to do too much in one dive but you want to try to find that sweet spot where your camera is working the best for that particular situation and once you know that write it down remember it and then when you go back in the water you know and you can get all you need is subject to work with you then you got the good images um i want to shift gears a bit because i want to talk about your business and your website um so you also do scuba repair as well and tell us about that okay so i do scuba repairs regulators and bcds i serve most of the dive shops here on oahu and even like american samoa um quadrillion uh the outer islands so i've been quite busy with that i've worked on gears working in dive shops for like 30 years so i have a lot of experience and i've accumulated all the training so uh it was a a move that was good for me to to they employed in scuba make decent a decent living and still have the flexibility to go diving go surfing go traveling when i when i want to um but there aren't that many qualified technicians in the islands right now so it's uh it was a good time to get into the business about eight years i've been in doing it full time um and the website for the marine life photography is identification tool which is pretty much the a product of my uh days when i wanted to help other students learn to like how to identify marine life and so it's it's not a profit thing it's just to help to help yeah it's completely free it's wonderful i mean yeah i remember once i went to the like one of the aquariums near nimitz and they sell all sorts of tropical fish beautiful fish and they said that they used your website to identify all the fish i was like oh god i know him yeah so it's uh it uh one of the the faculty at uh helo um when i donated slides for them he says hey you know what i'll switch up with the server i'll give you some software show you how to make a web page and that's how it started and i haven't changed it much since then it's been running for running running since 1994 have you added more to it recently or it's been about every every um few weeks i get an email with a what's this slug you know from from just divers around around hawaii and beyond and i identified and i say hey can i share that on a new species page and i keep adding new species and usually it's from people who are contributing so it's a tool for everybody to to help educate others yeah and how about i mean it just because you've done so much diving and been here on the island and everything where do you think you know is is a good place for diving or snorkeling on oahu and also on the other islands where are some good sites where people can go snorkeling or diving um i would say that for oahu i really love sharks cove the north shore in the summertime when it's really you know flat and calm yeah there's a lot of fish it's it's got interesting topography so there's a lot of everything for people to see um hanama bay can have nice fishes but it's also usually rough it takes a lot of effort to swim out and back in so it can be good usually early in the morning in the winter time it can be good on the other islands i mean molokini on mawai is really good yeah unlike cathedrals is good uh if you can go to kawaii go to knee how that's really good yeah it was great the monk seals there i went i actually have some videos that i never uploaded i eventually want to do yeah and then if you go to kona um puako is a great snorkeling and diving area for shore diving and of course uh honao now city of refuge or two step that's also a really good place and for purely snorkeling and kahaluu right south of kailua town is also very good well really i haven't been there actually it's really good now go in the morning early before the parking lot gets filled like anywhere else and tons of fish and they're friendly they're good for pictures a lot of turtles yeah and then abroad um for for a lot of everything indonesia is still the best yeah west papua rajah ampot komodo those areas are amazing it's pricey but yeah that's if you want the best bang for your buck yeah indonesia so what kind of stuff do you see just more fishes or um more fish and more everything everything uh because uh the indonesia malaysia philippine's region is considered the hub of biodiversity in the ocean so you'll see you know a thousand kinds of fishes 500 kinds of corals whereas hawaii has 75 kinds of corals and 200 kinds of fishes it just as you radiate out away from that region the number of species goes down oh that's true i didn't know that and there's a lot of currents between all those islands and so more current brings more more food more plankton and so yeah the reefs are very rich the corals and soft corals and sea fans and manta rays and that's just so much and there's not a ton of dynamite fishing going on there in indonesia there's some areas that are bad but if you get away from those populated areas it's still quite quite nice yeah what would you say have you noticed anything over the years of diving and snorkeling and just being in the water here have you noticed changes in the coral and just like the fish everything have what have you noticed any changes i guess yes um in the let me be the the 40 years since i've been going in the ocean i did notice that fish population has gone down considerably there's just a lot of people there's a lot of people catching fish yeah um you know there's many different fishing you know current fish you know spearing netting yeah yeah so there's it's just less and less i quit spear fishing back 25 years ago because it was getting difficult with it with a pole spear um coral health has declined because the water is getting warmer um there's coral disease is coming in it's happening all around the world yeah every ocean has had the same problems so there's less let's say everything yeah sometimes it makes me want to cry when i see people spear fishing because they have these beautiful fish on the on the spear and you know and you're just thinking oh my gosh and you know they're just and because when you bring them to the surface they somehow don't look as beautiful as they do underwater yeah and also you know you think about these these a lot of brief fish can live five to 25 30 plus years you know they live a long time they live longer than in cats and dogs so you think about that you know they and there's a lot of predators in the ocean so they can't reproduce and and maintain their population if they have that long of a lifespan yeah how about the larger wildlife have you noticed anything different with like the sharks the turtles the dolphins or whales i don't know if you used to see i mean i've never seen a whale here actually in hawaii at least i mean from a distance but not close up ever but i don't know if you've ever you know what it was like 40 years ago um i think well i i don't really know about the whales that much but the turtles have definitely come back you couldn't see turtles you know as easily as you can now and they're coming on the beaches and nesting even when i'm a novel here they're nesting on the beach that's there's a lot more now because not being hunted uh but on the other hand the sharks have been depleted a lot from yeah you know those those nets and those uh those foreign vessels coming in and taking a lot of sharks so it's not it's not the way it used to be yeah that's really sad to think about that do you uh do you want to tell us about some of the photos you took there's some really interesting ones like the one with the whale how did you capture that so in tonga you can actually legally swim with whales if you're on a tour um they do allow snorkeling with the whales um there are some rules to to make it safe and not too irritating uh but it's also very rough there so when you go on the boat it can be like five hours of rough water and waiting and it's like you're fishing but you're not catching any fish because you're not dragging any lions and so it's you're out in the middle of nowhere waiting to find whales so um that was from tonga um i had a week of time in the water only got two swims with the whales and that's about the best image it's not it wasn't like it was very amazing you know yeah it wasn't what i expected yeah but even to be able to swim with the whales that's wonderful um yeah that's that's great um but anyway we're out of time so we'll have to wrap it up um i'm dr grace o'neill this is healthy planet on a think tech live streaming networks series um we've been talking to kiyuki sender the marine wildlife photographer and scuba enthusiast and um it's been really informative and i want to say thank you to eric our broadcast engineer and the rest of the crew at think tech for hosting our show and thanks to you our listeners for listening i'll see you on may 26 for more of healthy planet on think tech the show for people who care about their health and the health of our planet our next show will be about how a whole foods plant-based diet can help with kidney disease with our special guest dr shiva and jochi nephrologist if you have ideas for the show please contact me at healthy planet think tech at gmail.com check out my website at grace in hawaii.com for more information on my projects including future show guests i'm dr grace o'neill aloha everyone thank you so much for watching think tech hawaii if you like what we do please like us and click the subscribe button on youtube and the follow button on vimeo you can also follow us on facebook instagram twitter and linked in and donate to us at think tech hawaii.com mahalo


After what was a frenetic weekend of English Premier League action, the Duster settled and the second international break of the season has put a two-week pause on action. Let's have a look now at the top half of the table at this juncture. So we have Tottenham Hotspur at the top of the table, total 20 points. They have six wins so far, Arsenal in second position, six wins as well. They also share the same number of points as Tottenham Hotspur. In third position, defending champions Manchester City, they are two points away from the leaders. Then we have Liverpool in fourth position on 17 points. What about Aston Villa, that's sitting in fifth spot, having accumulated five wins so far. And if we continue to look at the table Manchester United, not to forget Newcastle United because I predicted them to be in my top four. They are in eighth spot right now on 13 points and Manchester United still in the top half of the table. They are in tenth position on 12 points. Well, in what was unquestionably the biggest game of the EPL season so far, reigning Premier League champions and treble winners Manchester City travelled to the Emirates to take on the team that pushed them closest last season, Arsenal. And in a game which only had three shots on target, it was a Gabriel Martinelli strike in the 86th minute, which secured a victory for Arsenal, their first in the league against Man City since 2015. Our football correspondent Simon Evans is with us via Zoom, Simon, was this a perception shattering victory for the Garners? That's the question. I think it's certainly a hugely important victory for them psychologically because this is the team they've been unable to beat over the last few years. And under Mikayla Tete, they've never done it. So it's very significant that they managed to do it, a fortunate goal, but I don't think many people would say they didn't deserve something out of that game. And it really will give them belief that this year, maybe, maybe they have the ability to go one step further than Manchester City. Yeah, I want to talk about some of the positives for Arsenal coming out of this match. And for me, I'd say they played really good defence. They won this match with their defence. What say you? Yeah, very solid, very organised. I don't think City were at their best. I think that certainly had an impact on the game. I think they missed Rodgery in midfield, giving them that base. They had to adjust things around a little bit and they weren't as effective as we've seen them be many times before. But undoubtedly, Arsenal were very, very solid. I mean, they were up against, let's not forget, two of the best strikers in the world at the moment in Erling Haaland and Julian Alvarez. And they neutralised them very well indeed. Yeah, we're going to talk about Erling Haaland because we need to talk about Erling Haaland. But as we continue talking about the positives coming out of Arsenal's win against Manchester City, let's talk about Mikael Arteta's substitution. I think he did a great job and that's the reason Gabriel Martinelli got that winning goal for them. Yeah, I mean, Martinelli came on and immediately injected some energy into the performance, gave them something different. There was something a little bit predictable about the way that Arsenal were attacking City, especially without the injured Ucaio Saca, who was a big loss for them on the right. Troussard in the first half didn't really provide what they'd hoped for down that side. And when Martinelli came on and coming back from injury, first touch he got on the ball, he was looking to attack the defenders, make things happen and he started causing some panic in the City defence. Yeah, in Manchester City, we all know about the injury wars. They're missing Kevin De Bruyne. We know the role that Kevin De Bruyne plays for this squad. There were a lot of their players, you know, Rodgery, a player that has really been stepping up for them this season, been without him as well. But Erling Halland, do you feel as if the Erling Halland that we spoke about last season has been a bit teem, a bit watered down and is that a cause for concern where City is concerned? I don't think it's been the start that he had last year. Obviously, not in terms of either the production of goals or his impact on games. There's no doubt about that and teams are defending him very well. But I think the big issue is City aren't getting the service to him that he got last year. I mean, a lot of the goals he scored early on last year, he's a tremendous finisher, I'm not taking anything away from him. But those goals were created, weren't they? They found spaces, they got the ball to the back post to him. Teams, and particularly Arsenal, going back to their defending, were very effective at limiting City in the wide areas where City have always been so effective. And that's going to be a concern for Pep Guardiola. He left out Docku, which was a bit surprised about on the wing. And they just haven't quite been finding the way to get the ball into the channels, the right channels for Erling Halland. Yeah, we've said, Simon, that Erling Halland is a pretty unstoppable kind of player because of his physical presence and how aggressive he is in the box. But if you are pointing to the fact that the service to him is compromising his ability to score, may this be a route that other teams may use to stifle Man City's offensive threat? Yeah, I mean, it's easier said than done for most teams, isn't it? The top teams can certainly take some hope from that. But I don't think City are going to be as ineffective at providing him with service all year long. I think what it showed that they've got to have their wide players on it. Now, there was no Grealish out there. There was no Docku out there. They've lost Mares, of course. Bernardo Silva, who causes so many problems for teams in the wide areas. He was playing as a defensive midfielder. Will Forden was in the more central areas a lot. The game got very congested in the center of the field, which I think was a deliberate tactic from Arsenal. And it was one that frustrated Manchester City. And yes, to go back to your point, that will be something a lot of teams have noticed. Yeah, quick question on Man City before we leave this game, Simon. Five titles and a runner-up spot in the last six years. So they are accustomed to winning. Pet would have a difficulty on his hands in keeping his players motivated. Because when you're champions for so many seasons, year after year, the hunger may dip a bit. But you think, Pep, is the type of manager that won't allow that to happen to this team? Yeah, I think so. I think he finds ways psychologically. I think every day at Manchester City's training ground to keep them hungry, just to be in the team is a difficult thing to achieve at Manchester City. Because even players who have good games get left out at Manchester City. It's not enough just to perform well on a Saturday. You have to be doing it every day there. So he keeps them on their toes. But I do wonder, the small squad, he likes to work with a small squad. And that goes a little bit against the trend with big clubs in modern football, especially the teams that are playing European football in midweek and then Premier League at the weekend. And when you see him playing a team like that with Bernardo Silva out of position, he did quite well in that role, but it's not his role and he's not as effective in that. Rico Luis, who we've seen as a fullback, used as like a attacking midfielder in the de Bruyne position. You start to wonder, does he really have as many options there as some of the other teams? We've seen what happens with teams when they lose three or four players in the middle of the Premier League. Mid table sides really suffer with it. That shouldn't really be happening with a team like Manchester City with all their resources. And now we're going to talk, Simon. We're going to move away from that Manchester City blip, as I want to call it. And we're going to talk about the table leaders and that's Tottenham Hotspur. And to me, it feels really strange because I mean, we know the struggles that Tottenham has gone through. And just to add insult to injury, they lost Harry Kane and we know the goal-scoring machine that Harry Kane has been for Tottenham Hotspur. They're flying high now. They're at the top of the table under their coach and post-accomglue. Well deserved. Yes, deserved. And the fascinating thing about it is, as you mentioned, Harry Kane departing and Tottenham looking stronger. I mean, there's no getting away from that. That's no slight on Harry Kane, of course, who's an outstanding centre forward. But so much that Tottenham did used to go through Harry Kane. He dropped deep. Everything had to go in there. It meant Søn had to play a certain role as the runner going behind Harry Kane and so on. It meant that players like Rich Arlesen often didn't get on the field. So it was a Harry Kane-focused team and post-accomglue has come in and without Kane has built a side which I think all round is stronger than we've seen for the last couple of years. What do you say about the form that Tottenham has started this season with? That we are to see them as serious title contenders for this year's EPL. You know, it's a big step to go from a good start, six games to start considering Spurs title contenders. I really have been impressed by the way they've played. I think they showed on Saturday at Luton as well, which is, you know, they're down the bottom of the league, the very physical Route 1 style of football that Luton play. It's a kind of game that Tottenham would have lost in the past. They've always been a little bit of a soft touch when they come up against very physical teams. Even with 10 men, as they were for most of the second half, they gritted it out, they got the result. That was impressive for me. I can see Tottenham finishing in the top four, but it's a little bit too early for me to start thinking that they can win the whole thing. Yeah, problem there for the Tottenham fans, Simon, because they have suffered for a long time. The last time Tottenham won the top flight title, I wasn't born and I'm not young. So, problems for Tottenham. But the point you make is a good one, that overall, based on how they play now, they have found a way without Harry Kane to be a very strong unit. You've already said that you don't think they can go all the way. But talk to us about the coach's impact on this team and the good things that he's been able to do because he passed a cogwheel, has to take some credit for what Tottenham is doing at the moment. Oh, a huge amount of credit. I think he's made an incredible impact on that club in such a short space of time. I mean, to come into a new club in a new league for him, never coached in the Premier League before, a team then loses its star player to then mould them into a different style of football, a more energetic style of football, I think, a little bit more with the pressing and front foot than they had been in the past, certainly under Antonio Conte and Jose Mourinho. And to do all that in such a short space of time is very impressive. And off the field, just his manner and demeanour, I mean, it's such a nice change for those of us who like other sports, to have a Premier League manager who can talk about cricket or rugby as Angepasta Coglu can do. You're not going to hear many coaches in the Premier League bringing up camp horizons with basketball and the way England play cricket and so on. So it's refreshing. He's very forthright, open with the media and the fans and clearly a great motivator of players and a good organiser too. Yeah, the Man United victory was probably the most dramatic of the weekend, Simon. And two MacTominay goals in the in-stoppage time saving the blushes there. I'm interested, though, in the post-match comments from coach Eric Ten Haag, who blasted his players and suggested that if they can't take the pressure, they shouldn't be playing at Old Trafford. Yeah, I found that a little bit strange. I mean, he's been under pressure now. His pressure has started mounting on him and that pressure transmits itself to the team. It did feel like one of those games that if they lose that, there's going to be a lot of speculation in the media, at least, about the future of Eric Ten Haag. And then MacTominay pulls out those two late goals dramatically and saves the day for him. And to then sort of strike a negative tone after that, Old Trafford at last was buzzing with excitement and celebration. And even though it's only a comeback win against a team they're expected to beat in Brentford, it just seemed to strike the wrong tone to me. And obviously, he is under pressure and English isn't his forte, really. I mean, he does speak English, but he's not totally comfortable in it. I found that a little bit odd. Yeah, I think you have to understand his position, though, because as you conceded just now, Simon, for 90 minutes, he was under a lot of pressure. So coming out of the game, it was just a matter of a couple of minutes that saved it. But for the afternoon's work, it was mostly stress for him and not joy. Yeah, I mean, it's not right at Manchester United. We've seen that in their performances against Galatasaray in the Champions League. Even the win they had at Burnley, which I watched, they didn't play very well at all. They didn't play like a top team, playing a bottom three team. So there's a lot of problems there. It's not just the injuries. It's not just Ten Hogg either. The problems at Manchester United go deep, but they do have problems in the dressing room. I mean, and some of those have been laid at the foot of Ten Hogg by people in the media suggesting the way he's handled Jadon Sancho and other players hasn't been in the right way. So it's a tense moment for him there. And I just thought, you know, that's the time where you can say, look, the team showed its character. They showed they weren't going to give up. You know, you're not saying they've done it for you, but they kind of did do it for you, Eric. Yeah, well, Simon, what's for sure is all the players get the opportunity to have a break. The EPL is heading into a break. So we're looking forward to see how they come back out of this break. I want to thank you so much for putting the EPL stories in context, and we'll talk again soon. Cheers, all the best. No problem. Simon Evans Day, our football correspondent. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we still have to talk football.


Okay, my name is Achukwun Yejin and I'm the founder of Bukilap Names. Today we are going to know how to pronounce names. How can we pronounce names? Communities attach a lot of importance to the names they bear. Both individual names and names of their communities. In Africa, there are valid reasons for this. The names are so valued, any attempt to change community names, without any agreement of the entire community always leads to crisis. Most names are derived from far-fielders, rivers, streams, deities, hills, markets and other landmarks. While families and individuals usually engage names after family members, market days, non-heroes and heroines, among other important institutions. In addition, families, in addition, family name their children to symbolize their experience in life or circumstances surrounding the birth of such child or children or deceased family members, time or place of birth. There are many, there are over thousands of names not captured anywhere, especially the ancient names Ado and Oz that are going to extinction. Most of young generations, especially youths, are not aware of these names and were still, if it is not captured, it will be worse if it is not captured now. What data are we going to present to the generations and born? Have we talked about this? We are bridging this gap between ancient names and the young generations and in the same time solve the problem of low participation of African language contribution in contributing to African dictionary and online educational resource resource and creation of contents in which in our platforms. Current milestone, we've completed the meeting edition last year, that was in November last year, then we had two pieces of training and it was hybrid online and physical training and there was two editor's challenge to ascertain the level of understanding and know the created contents in order to post the created contents on Igbo dictionary platform. The outcome of the meeting edition, the outcome one, we have two pieces of training, two editor's and one contest. We have 54 editors, they created two points, 3k pages on Igbo dictionary, editor two points, 32k pages and we had total edit of 2.87k. The source is outreach dashboard. We got this data in first March 2023. Join us in addressing your cultural heritage and edition dictionary. Thank you so much. I still remember my humble self. Thank you. Thank you.


Hello everyone, it's your girl Kenzie here from Leighton Sports Cards and I am ripping brand new release today of 2022 Panini select baseball hobby 12 box case break number three. Pick your team. Gonna go over the teams and then we'll get started everyone we got Alex G Astros, Benjamin V Rangers, Bill B Reds, Brandon S Mariners, Carol G Braves, Chris V Cardinals, Cliff S Royals, Dan C Red Sox, Edgar B Tigers, Jason H Cubs, Jeremy W Twins, John G Padres, Johnny H with the Yankees and Giants, Jonathan B Pirates, Jordan S D-Backs, Matthew N with the White Sox and Dodgers, Michael M Angels, Michael L Orioles, Mitchell H Nationals, Roy M with the Brewers and Blue Jays, Ryan M Marlins, Ryan B A's, Ryan G Rocky, Sean M Metz, Sean B Phillies, Song Yang J, Ray's and Thomas B with the Guardians. All right, best of luck, everyone. Here we go. Case number three. Right. Good luck, everyone. Here we go. Box one. Got to 25. Cracked Ice Patch, Otto Lewin Diaz. Starting off hot here. Here you go to 25 Marlins, Tatis, got to 2.99 Padres, RPA, Reese Kenner, Red to 1.99, John Means Orioles. Yeah. They look nice, Brandon. That's what like the second or third cracked ice Marlins hit, too. He's been hitting. He's got white to 50 on the Chris Flexon Mariners. Who's the amenity? He wished his last name was Flexon. That is true. So he could walk around Flexon his big muscles all day. Silver, Thomas Sabuki, Metz. There you go. So Rookie Patch, Tyler McGill, Metz and Fuego Brightsurfer. Yeah, they are. They are Ryan. Marlins been hitting all morning. Them, the Pirates, the Brewers, couple teams. The Cardinals have been hitting pretty big, too. Brandon Belt, Tri-Color, Brandon Reynolds. Light Blue, Rookie to 1.49, Aaron Ashby, Brewers. Yeah, so looking for Glow. We pulled the Henry Davis out of the last case. Let's see if we get a Watson out of here. Aaron Nola. I know Brandon's looking forward to his Watson mail day. He just had a Watson auto out of Bowman the other day with me. Got Trista McKenzie, Tri-Color and Moonshot, Shohei. Got D-Bats, Rookie Patch, Drew Ellis. And Silver, Jose Altuve Numbers. Silver Tatis on the Diamond level. I'll do it for the first box there. Those auto's out of the first two packs. We also pulled a Wander Redemption out of the last case, too. Ken Griffey Jr., Silver. Got Tydye coming up here. Ty of Jake Myers, Rookie. Astros. Astros is another team that's been hitting five out of 20 on the tie-dye. One of my favorite colors in Select as well. The tie-dye and then the white. We've got Chad McCormick, Silver, Rookie, Stros. It was, Brandon. Last box, last aisle. Oh, man. That last box had two Marlins hits in it, too. Rookie Patch, Jared Duren. Ripgit. Looked pretty clean, too. You can look at that when you get it. It might be a gradeable card for sure. Evan Longoria, Tri-Color. George Brett. Got Light Blue to 149 JT Romudo. Got some 99. Patch Auto, Taylor Walls. Tampa, Frazier. And Fuego, Ozzy Albies. Red 199, UC Kikuchi. Tri-Color, Dansby Swanson. Loom Shots, Vladdy. Got Angels to 250. Silver Patch of Inglatius. Clear, warm or not. And Fuego Silver, Castanelis. Reds. Burger, yeah, Molina Silver, diamond level. Wanna have any fun weekend plans? It's hanging out. I'm also excited.  Like, I got these really cute pots on the back porch. I'm gonna make some like basil or grow some basil and some Lawn Trill and all that. We've got 250 Ryan Sandberg for the Cubs. I do not have the green thumb so I'm hoping that I can keep these alive. And actually be able to use them. But I'm gonna try, so fun little new hobby, I guess, to try. We've got Cracked Ice Patch Auto, Alejandro Kirk for the Blue Jays. And we've got Alejandro Kirk for the Blue Jays. Nice one there. Blue Jays, Brandon Lawn. Gotta go to like, Lowe's or Home Depot this weekend. Pick up some seeds and soil and plant those. We have Sparks, Cracked Ice, Louise Gill, Yankees.  And Fuego, Hobby Bias. We have any planters watching that have any good tips and tricks to keep plants alive? Jonathan India on the Red to 199. Reds. Besides, make sure to water them. I don't get too, too much sun where we are in the apartment, so that's gonna be another struggle. Gavin Sheets Tri-Color, White Socks, Ricky. I did Google like some plants that don't really like direct sunlight. And most of those spices are herbs, though. We have Royals Patch, John Heasley. And Fuego Silver Brace Harper. Silver Chris Bryant. Silver Zach Wheeler. Angels, Brandon Marsh, Ricky Patch. Evan Rodriguez. Tri-Color of Edmondo Sosa. Lattice Senior, phenomenal. Got Falefa on the White Blue to 149. Last pack, box three. Silver Ryan Balade for the Rockies. So they need on the concourse there. Box four here. And everyone, all sold out on the daytime breaks. Thanks again for filming those up. Basically, before we went live, Tri-Color, Matt Manning, Ricky, Boba Shet, Sparks, all of, of course, baseball breaks are also filled up for tonight. Trying to get his football filled up now. Babe Ruth on the Tri-Color. See when they're Yankees and Fuego Mike Trout. Again, if you're looking for more select baseball, that will go tomorrow evening with Kayla. He's got a couple cases. Luke Williams, Ricky Jumbo Patch. Phillies. Silver, Wonder Franco on the Phenomenon. Nice one there. Raze, first franco of the case. Silver Rookie, Lars Newbar. Carnals. On the concourse. Got Neon Green in 99. Tom Martain, D-Bex. Silver, Jeff McNeil. Out of 250, Silver Patch of Tariq Skupo. And Fuego of Brandon Crawford. Saw the commercial last night for the new, well, I guess there's a bunch, it's a new chicken sandwich, but a bunch of different flavors from Wingstop. You tried it yet? No. I haven't had Wingstop. I haven't had Wingstop ever. I really need to try it this weekend. Mariner is Griffey Jr. to $1.99. I was talking about it with Chat the other night. Like half the people said it's so good and then half people said it's overrated. I was like, uh-oh, now I definitely have to try it. Silver, Adam Wainwright. It looked really good. Yeah, up here to $99. Pirates. Hoijun Park, Patch Auto. Trevor's Story. To $2.99. RPA, Brian De La Cruz. And Nolan Aronado. Pack here. Oh, I think we got a gold in the back. Let's see, Drew Ellis-Ricky. Gold, Jorge Palanco for the twins on the concourse. There you go, twins on the gold. One out of 10. I love gold. Very nice. Gold out of each case, I believe, as well. In about two or so each case. Baseball, especially at the price point. What? It's like $150, $160 a box or something like that. For four hits. Chance of some nice color. Some short prints. RPAs. Great design. For a non-licensed baseball product, for sure. Got weights of $50, Madison Bumgarner. The bags. Again, these are in stock. Nope. There we go. These are in stock for personals. At $149.99 a box. Again, of course, we'll be doing personals tonight after Drew breaks. Got tri-color Madison Bumgarner. Sandy Kofax. Red to $199. Gray Beepin. Cubs. Silver Kyle Tucker. Cleveland. Patch of Eli Morgan. And Silver Ryan Sandberg Sparks. Oh, yeah, I love the photography on Stadium Club. Best-looking cards out there. Ozzy Albee Silver. Yeah. Yeah. Those usually are fairly cheap, too, for the quality. Got tri-color Lubab. Right, it's hard for... Again, if you didn't hear me earlier, Rich did. Add a new few things to the website, including being able to pre-order some boxes for release day. It's under the release calendar on the top of the website. We have Youth Explosion Silver of Ivan Herrera. Cardinals. That is to $99. There you go, Cardinals. Nice one there. And in Fuego, Matt Olson. You can pre-order those to be shipped sealed to you. Light Blue to $149, Willie Adams. As well as a special pricing on the homepage. You just have to scroll down a little bit to see that one. We've got to 25 Cracked Ice Pete Rose Auto Reds! Boom! Here we go, Cincinnati. Bill B. on the Pete Rose. I love when he signs like he autographs baseballs and inscribes, sorry, I bet on baseball. 12 of 25. We'll mag that one. And, uh, Jared Durin. Right, Brennan. We've got Thunder and Lightning. Rockies, Trevor Story! Nice short print there. Thunder and Lightning. A lot of nice short prints this year. Mag that. And Tim Anderson Silver. That's the first one of those that we've seen today. A couple new short prints. Out of 99 Tri-Color Patch, Marcus Strohman. And, uh, Framel Reyes. I don't know what that looked like on the album used to me for a second. Number six. Tri-Color will be done. Haven't seen it yet. Mariner's Jumbo Patch, Matt Barash Rookie. And Fuego, Shane Bieber. Tri-Color, Chris Bassett. Ace, Beth Sparks. Got white to 50 of Adam Wainwright. Carnals. Silver, Max Freed. Frank. Got to 199 Philly's RPA Silver, Matt Veerling. Philly's. Yachty Molina. Silver, Cabrion Hayes. Pirates. To 299, RPA Brave, Spencer Strider. Moonshot. Yordon. Light blue, 149, German Marcus. Rockies. Rookie Tri-Color, Greg Dietzman. Cubs. And Fuego, Jose Altuve. To 299, Rookie Silver Patch. Luis Frias. Number Silver, Aaron Judge. And Silver, Fluffa. Red to 199, Hunter Renfrow. Brewer's. All right, they'll do first half case here. What's up? All right, box 7. Got to 199, Rocky Silver RPA here, Ryan Valade. Rockies. Harper. Got light blue to 149. Corbin Burns. Tri-Color, Marc Khanna. And Fuego, Lattie Jr. Tri-Color, Alex Kiriloff. Twins. And Xander Bogarts. Texas, Rookie Patch, Glenn Otto. Rangers. Silver, Numbers, Babe Ruth. Yankees. Silver, Rookie Connor Wong. Army Concourse. Sheets, Rookie, Ichiro Silver. Right, Adams Rookie, we've got Red to 199. Fluffa. Rangers. Fluffa for the Angels, Chris Rodriguez. Matt Olson in Fuego. Silver, Shane Baez Rookie. The 99. Tri-Color, Rookie Patch. Wanya Pess. Cardinals. Last pack here. Got correct, Ice of Shirley Blackman to 25. Rockies. Rockies did well this box. 15 to 25 on that one. So 99. Patch Auto, White Sox. Turner. For the Reds, we've got Rookie Patch, T.J. Freidl. And Puego Silver, Ozzy Albies. Brace. Cracked Eyes. Devin Williams to 25. Breurs. Devin Williams. Oh, Man Blague. Yeah, that's my luck too. Silver, Rookie, Patrick Mazzica. For the Mets on the Premier level. Got Pirates. O'Neal Cruz, Rookie Jumbo. Pirates. Garrett Cole. Got out of 199. Sparks Auto. For the Reds, Tony Centilion. And Puego, Kyle Lewis. Rookie. Two, 199. Luke Williams, Phyllis. Tri-Color, Rookie. Thomas Zapuki. First one, Yelich. Rookie Tri-Color, 7-Beard. Devax, Stan. There an Ashby Breurs. Good, good way to look at a Blake. Not yet. It's not your day yet. Silver. Silver, Frankie Montas. Ace. And O'Vara Navarez on the Silver Diamond level. Right. There's nine here. Got Rookie Patch, Wanda Pets. And Moonshots, Paul Goldschmidt. Tri-Color, Andrew McCutchen, Phyllis. And Puego, Joey Vado. Mike Nunzio, Tri-Color. Tatis. Rookie Patch of John Heasley. And Silver Numbers, Adam Frazier. Mariners. Subnick. Got moved up to JV. Nice, bud. See, I told ya. We've got Light Blue to 149. Brandon Lau. So far, so good today. Selects looking nice on a release day. Got Silver, Jorge Polanco twins. Silver Rookie, Luke Williams. Rookie. We've got a Andre Jackson. Gold Rookie, one of 10 Dodgers. Go L.A. Dodgers is Matthew N. On the Gold Rookie there. Grats. Silver, Joe Adele to 199. Brewer's Patch Auto. Mario Feliciano. Mario Feliciano. Great freedom. Silver, Joe Adele to 199. Brewer's Patch Auto. Mario Feliciano. Great freedom. So 199. Raise, RPA, Josh Lau. Sparks, Frank Sandberg. Last pack here. Red to 199. Of Gary Carter for the Mets. We really don't have any mods, Nick. Our mods are really at the top loaders. If one needs to be banned or removed or anything like that. I don't think we have any mods, actually. Alright, box 10 here. Thankfully, we don't have to do that. Thankfully, we don't have to do that too often. Or have any issues. So, here we go. Box 10. Got Philly's Rookie Patch. Hans Kraus. And many Machado on these select stars. Color Rookie, Ryan Ballade. Rockies. Shohei Sparks. Out of 99, Tri-Color Rookie Patch. Braves, Kyle Moeller. And Enfuego Silver, Max Scherzer. Silver, John Means. Light Blue to 149. You Darvish Padres. Silver, Katel Marte. Tri-Color, Paul Goldschmidt. And Rodriguez. Red Rookie to 199. Jake Myers, Astros. Silver, Matt Olson. We've got 5 of 10. Gold Auto Padres. You Darvish. There you go, Padres. I love gold. John G. Padres. Gold Auto. Gladdy Sr. Marley kicks more at night than she does in the morning. So, doing good today. Out of 199, Mariters. RPA here. Matt Brash. And Enfuego Anthony Rendon. And we've got Blue to 149. Billy Williams. Cups. Number 11 here. Tri-Color, Glavor Torres. And Fuego Jazz, Chisholm Marlins. Max. For Atlanta. Max Freed. Soto. Got a Wanderer Rookie Base here. Rays. Rookie Patch. Luke Williams, Philly's. Silver Sparks, Carlos Coran. Silver, Liam Hendricks. Silver, Sandy Kofax on the Diamond level. Tideye coming up. Tideye, Jordan Montgomery East to 20. One of my gummies. 16 out of 20 on that one. Silver, Trevor Storey. To 99, Philly's. Tri-Color. Ponds Cross. Bramble Reyes. Sounds good, bud. Red to 199. Quinjin Rue. Blue Juice. To 75. Patch Auto. For the Cubs. Nick Magigal. Cubs on that, my trout phenomenon. Got Mariners to 99. RPA. Matt Brash. That does look to be some type of damage on this left corner up here. It's pretty visible. Like a dent, almost. I will send a box here with the Mariners. Cedric Mullen's Numbers. Got Cracked Ice to 25. Charlie Morton for the Braves. 9 to 25 on that one. 9 to 25 on that one. Alright, that was box 11. Now on to box 12. I don't think we've seen a... Or a deep break yet, huh? If we're tying this last one. Box 12. Then we got one more case of Select Silver Rookie. Connor Siebel. And all baseballs sold out for the remainder of the day. As well as the... All the breaks in the daytime. We've got White to 50 on the Edmundo Sosa. Carnals. Four still has plenty of spots left. Four football going later tonight. He'll be live starting at 5 p.m. Shry Keller, Devin Williams. Mike Schroepfenam's Phenomenons. Silver Christian Yellich. Mariners. Matt Brash, Rookie Patch. Burns. Rookie Shry Keller. Jake Berger, White Sox. Tim Anderson on the spark. 2199 Astros Sparks Auto. Jake Myers. Ryan Schatz, Juan Soto. 250 Ranger Silver Patch. AJ Alexi. Sparks Silver. Carlos Correa. Got Light Blue to 149 Rookie. AJ Alexi, Rangers. Red to 199. Aaron Judge. Yankees. Got Silver, John Means. Toronto to 199. Silver RPA, Kevin Smith. And Enfuego of Talmartay. Alex. Alright, Noah Zebra. In that case. Alright, let's go ahead and do a recap here. Let's start with the Patches. Alright, so we had AJ Alexi, Rangers. Matt Brash, Mariners. Hans Kross, Phillies. Luke Williams, Phillies. Kyle Muller, Braves. Hans Kross, Phillies. John Hesley, Royals. Wanya Pez, Cardinals. Red, Wanya Pez, Cardinals. Glen Otto, Rangers. Luis Frias, D-Backs. Matt Brash, Mariners. Marcus Strowman, Cubs. Eli Morgan, Guardians. Trey Skubal, Tigers. Luke Williams, Phillies. Brandon Marsh, Angels. John Hesley, Royals. Inglatius, Angels. Ozzy Albie, Space. Jaren Duren, Red Sox, Drew Ellis, D-Backs. Tyler McGill, Metz. Our Autos and RPAs. Kevin Smith, Blue Jays. Jake Meyers, Astros. Matt Brash, Mariners. Nick Matrigal, Cubs. Matt Brash, Mariners. We had the Golden Tenu, Darvish, Padres. Josh Lau, Raze. Feliciano, for the Brewers. Santillian, Santillon. Reds, Jermaine, Mercedes. White Sox, Chris Rodriguez, Angels. Ryan Valle, Barrakes. Matt Veerling, Phillies. Spencer Strider, Braves. Ivan Herrera on the Youth Explosions to Ninety-Nine. Cardinals, Friday like Cruz Miami. Joy Hunt Park, Pirates. Louise Gill on the Crack-Eyes to 25 Yankees. Alejandro Kirk, Blue Jays. Taylor Walls. Root, Raze. Reese Counter, Padres. Luindiaz, Marlins. And our two top-loaded cart, or mags cart, sorry. The Thunder and Lightning Short Print, Rocky's Trevor Story. And the Crack-Eyes to 25. Pete Rose, for the Reds. That'll do it for Case 3. We've got Case 4 coming up in just a bit.


But perhaps when I think, or when I experience in my surroundings these types of contrasts between what's affordable and what's not, I'm immediately taken to Manhattanville in close proximity to Columbia. And to see on one side of Broadway, the new campus buildings, my rental piano with glass and it's very modern look. And on the other side to see the Manhattanville NYCHA houses. It seems to me that those are perhaps very radically different approaches to architecture. But looking at your body of work. It seems that you have tried to bridge that divide, and you have tried to incorporate elements of interior design of art, both in private and public spaces. Would you say this is a correct description of what you have been trying to do. Yes, you have to look at the history again of affordable housing and you look at the context. If you look at NYCHA housing, you know that was developed in the 60s and 70s, you realize that the idea was to be as expedient to with the available resources that cities had. Particularly in New York, the idea was to build as quickly for as many people as possible, without looking at style, without looking at amenities, without really looking at how these communities came together. So you fast forward to the 21st century and look at things like Manhattanville and before Manhattanville, what was there, right? I mean, the neighborhood was really a manufacturing district that was with, in fact, we were very fortunate to have worked on two of the projects in Manhattanville with Renzo Piano and Davis Brody. So we're associate architects on those projects. But the idea is that when NYCHA was built was NYCHA was developed. The idea was just housed as many people as possible. But now the thinking with affordable housing is to provide social housing, housing that would empower people when they move there, when they live there, and that would be integral with the communities that they're situated in. The thinking with that now is to not make the affordable housing look like leftover housing or make it look like it was designed with very little dollars. The idea is to essentially look at how one would make affordable housing look like it's contextual, it's market rate. It reflects what the design of the times are and it reflects what any level of building would look like in that particular area. So when you look at the contrast between Manhattanville and the NYCHA buildings, you have to take time into consideration and you have to take the mechanisms that were available to develop those projects into consideration. Now the mechanisms that the city is using is really a public-private partnership. In other words, a lot of the affordable housing projects that are developed have some kind of tax credit. So there's the private dollars that are coming into those projects. So there's the need and there's a push to make the projects perform and look better than what they used to look like, being that they were solely funded by the federal government and the cities.  And the interesting thing with New York City is that because the city is not growing in, well, it is growing in terms of its population, well, pre-COVID, but it's growing horizontally. So a lot of sites are being reused, right? They're being recycled. So when you're recycling a site, you have to relate the site to what's there. Otherwise, eventually what will happen is that you have to demolish projects that are not performing so that you can essentially bring up the style in projects that are being designed and built now. So a lot more of that is going on before it starts to change. And one final question for this starting round before I open the floor. Thinking about how these projects perform over time, one of the things that are plaguing NYCHA housing right now is how poorly many of the units have aged in terms of materials, in terms of maintenance. How have you approached this issue in your projects? How have you strived to ensure the longevity of the projects? Well, yes, that's a very, very good question. You know, everything has a lifespan. If you think about it that way, you know, with buildings, the lifespan of the skin of the building could last thousands of years if it's properly maintained, right? Mechanical systems have their own lifespan. Even the investment and the resources that come out of these buildings in terms of rents and maintenance are tied to these lifespans, you know. So that if you imagine that NYCHA, which was built in the 60s and 70s is now almost 50 to 60 years old, right? You realize that those systems have essentially atrophy in order to continue to maintain and they were built at different times with different codes and different thought forms in terms of building. If you don't have the resources, the public resources or the financial resources or the political will to continue to maintain those buildings, they atrophy, they go down. Then you then think about how they're being paid for. If the rents or the resources, the income that comes out of those buildings are not commensurate to the cost of maintenance, those projects are essentially going to atrophy. So NYCHA, I believe, is in a lot of trouble. There has to be a new way of thinking about how to renovate these buildings, to bring them up to modern standards and to just bring the systems up so that they're much more cost effective. Just look at mechanical systems alone. The mechanical systems in a lot of these buildings, okay, are 50, 60 years old. Let's even say they would change a couple of times. They're maybe about 25 years old. They are gas gozillas if you want to compare them to cars, right? Whereas the new systems that are available are unitized. Each apartment has its own mechanical system. Whereas with these bigger buildings, you have mechanical systems, I'm talking specifically about the HVAC or heating, cooling and ventilation systems, tied to the building. These are big, big investments to make, to revamp them. So essentially what they've been doing is just to continue to try to maintain them to these possible standards. What we do, and we haven't done a lot of NYCHA projects. In fact, I don't recall doing any NYCHA projects where we've done some public projects with, and in fact we have some on the boards now with HPD, Housing Preservation Development. And what we're doing with these buildings that were built at the turn of the century, they were tenement buildings. They were renovated in the 60s. They've now come to the end of their effective life cycle as far as mechanical systems, electrical plumbing and all that stuff is concerned. These buildings all had individual HVAC systems. Now what we're doing as we go back to renovate them is that we're making the units much more, they got renovations, we're making them a lot more insulated. We're providing better performing windows. We're also unitizing the ventilation systems and the mechanical systems so that if one breaks down, it's literally plug and play. You can essentially take that unit's mechanical system and change it so that it doesn't affect the rest of the building. What that does is it lowers the cost, the effective cost of maintaining the building. And then the good thing about that too, finally, is that these projects are becoming HDFCs. You know, essentially they're going to be sold to the residents when they're done. That's a big component in housing, a big component in the way you maintain buildings because when people own their residences, when they own their homes, they tend to take care of them a lot better than if they were just tenants that were renting. So I think the model that eventually a lot of these public, large public buildings will have to look at is figure out a way to do home ownership. One of the other things I'll end with this one is in France now there's several projects that are similar to NYCHA. They realized that they'd also come to the end of their effective lifespans, particularly with insulation, which is a big issue with NYCHA. Windows are leak, walls that are really not properly insulated. So they're essentially wrapping these buildings with a curtain wall. They're wrapping them with curtain walls to create a buffer zone between the curtain wall. Now these curtain walls have also opened spaces that the residents could now come to and, you know, they're claiming more outdoor spaces and they're creating these sort of insulated spaces with buildings that were otherwise just like literally sieves. They just, you know, they just let out the air, let out all of the environment in the apartment. So there are ways of retrofitting these buildings to make them much more contemporary with curtain walls now the facades now look a lot more modern people now start to engage with the building in a totally different way. And it lowers their costs in maintaining the building and that translates to lowering the cost of the residents in terms of what they have to pay for their utilities. That was a lot. Yeah, yeah. I want to take one of the things you said because you were mentioning HDFCs and, oddly enough, Jenna had a question about that. I was just saying that the lab has recently done some work, looking at HDFCs in Harlem and some of the surrounding neighborhoods. And I was just curious whether you had any experience working on HDFC projects and if so what you think are some of the kind of possibilities and challenges facing HDFCs now. I graduated from Columbia in 84 right in 85 from the master's program and mark right in 85 I, I've heard about this project that was an HDFC in Harlem on 151st Street and a group of people had come together and they with their sweat equity were planning to renovate it. And as the architect young body architect rising architect from Columbia, I decided to join the team and help in designing the, the units, we then started working sweat equity, literally, in working on the building. We did it that for about six months and realize that we didn't have the resources or the experience to finish the project with, you know, laid out the floors laid out the walls, etc, etc. And so we went to, I think it was you have at that time, and saw some funds, which we then use to get a contractor to build 10 units. And, you know, we've had that the those apartments since 1991, we completed in 1991, I'm on the board of that HDFC now. And so I know the ins and outs of the project. There are advantages and there's some disadvantages. The advantage is that it creates home ownership. Right. And that is changed the neighborhood. While we were doing that several other buildings on the block, we were converted into HDFCs. And the block at that time was a very, it was a, I would say a devastated block, but because of those HDFCs, it became stabilized. Yeah, because people now took care of their neighborhood, they knew, they knew their neighbors, they knew that they had to work with the police precinct if there was drug activity on the block. And essentially, to me, it was a win-win. The disadvantage, of course, is that you would, you know, over the years, we found what we just said earlier that, you know, systems age. And, you know, the people in the HDFCs who've also aged their income is also being somewhat restricted. So we constantly try to minimize the maintenance fees so that it was commensurate with what we needed at the time. It wasn't like, you know, so you're not charging $2,000 as maintenance, you're charging like $700 just because you knew you had to keep the boilers going, you had to heat the hallways, you had to light the building, you had to clean the building. You know, all of those things that were needed. But as the systems have aged, so has the need to increase the maintenance fees. And that has been quite a challenge. So one of the things that we've been thinking about is looking at other ways of sourcing income to subsidize those sort of maintenance issues. So as buildings age, they become more expensive. And that's a concern. And that's something that we need to start talking to the city to see if there are other ways to offset that. One final note about HDFCs, and this is very, very, very important as far as I'm concerned, is that if you have lived in a building that has sort of sustained you for a period of time, and you get to a point where you need to move on, right? If the program is designed to allow you to sell, right, at a market or maybe below market, it helps people to move on to another stage, right, allows other people to come in to buy the unit at a lower cost. So if you're selling the HDFC, you know, say, I'll give you an example, say, for example, there's a, the market rate cost one apartment, a two bedroom apartment on in my block is like, it says 700,000. Okay, because it's an HDFC and there's some kind of restriction to sell to somebody in a limited income bracket. You could sell that for 300,000. If you bought the apartment for 250,000 you spent over the years, who knows whatever to to maintain it. You at least are off better off than just leaving the apartment because you've only rented you've only been a tenant in the building. So ownership is as far as I am concerned is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely important, particularly inner city developers. And one last thing I have in the late early 2000s, we worked on brownstones 32 brownstones in Hallow that we purchased with the developer for a dollar. To redevelop those brownstones fix those brownstones for about 3,400,000 300,000 when the projects were done and sold to and the this program was that it was owner occupied brownstone with maybe four levels, and you would have, you know, one or two levels for the owner, and you would rent off the other three levels, so that they could use the income from that to pay for the mortgage. Right. So these were sold at almost market rate prices at that time. So these owners were able to come into the community, have a mechanism to sustain their building and stabilize the buildings because they were owners. And now those brownstones are selling for a lot more than than what they initially bought it for so I'm a big advocate for home ownership. And HCFC has learned to do that. Thank you have a question. So in the topic of home ownership. I understand that it's like the path to better maintenance and more care and more community. However, in the, in the instances where it's impossible to have every every unit owned would there be design elements or design tactics that would help the residents get like would help give the residents ownership of their space. And then public housing is usually very monotonous in style. So like the overarching style and, well, yeah, the design of the housing itself doesn't give a sense of ownership, either. I don't know if that made sense. It's a great question. It's a great question. Yeah, obviously home home ownership is the, you know, is a plan a let's call that plan a right, but plan B is that, you know, a majority of public housing social housing, you know, affordable housing is not home ownership right. So the trend now as far as I'm concerned is to provide better services in this buildings. Okay, so you want to look at. So virtually everything that we do now are mixed use projects where there's a community facility or commercial on the base of the building, and then residential above. So what that does is that it limits it does several things it allows people to have services in the building. The mix use also allows to lower the cost of maintaining the building, which also lowers the cost for the residents, when they have to pay for their utilities. We also look at making the buildings as green as possible, you know, providing solar panels, you know, providing, you know, you know, much more environmentally friendly materials, so that the building is green. So that again it's lowering the cost, it's creating less of a larger carbon footprint, and it's making the health and welfare of people who live in the building, much better so that lowers the, the pressure on the healthcare system. So in other words, by designing buildings that are much more holistically tied to the community, you're also creating a sense of identity for people who live in the building, because you're integrating the building into the fabric of the community. So one of the things that I do personally as being, you know, I paint, right, I'm an artist. And what I do is that the paintings that I do are related to the projects that I design. I use the paintings to figure out the essence of the community essence of the site, before we essentially, before, before we actually embark on the design process, or it goes throughout the process. What I do at the end is I donate those paintings to the building. I install them in the buildings. And I found out that people tend to feel as if, just because you've got some kind of art in the hallways, they feel as if it's their own. They latch on to the building as if it's their own. They defend it as much as they can. Things like daycare centers in buildings. We're doing this project with WXY, which you talked about just now one. It's on a five, almost five acre site. It's about 740 units. The base of the site is going to be a large open space that are linked to the neighborhood so the neighborhood can actually use the base. But it also has things like grocery stores. It has a primary school. It has urban health, which is a health facility. It has a bank. It has a brewery. It has a maker space. It's got all sorts of things on the base so that residents don't have to go far. They don't have to commute to get to the services that they need. So creating this sort of mixed use environment is very, very important. Finally, again, mechanical systems are important. I'll give you another example. Just the idea of being able to control your thermostat is an empowering device, right? So that if one apartment, typically, like we said, NYCHA buildings, they have one boiler. The boiler blasts, you know, what, 90 degrees into the apartment or 80 degrees. Some people are hot. They leave the windows open. That's a cost to someone, right? Some people are cold. They turn on their stoves just so that they can keep their apartments warmer. But if you make these apartments and give them their individual temperature controlling systems, you've empowered those people because they can now keep their temperature at whatever degrees they want it and turn it off if they don't want it. That benefits the building. Ventilation, just ventilation. You know, I'm sure you've all been to buildings where you walk into the hallway and it smells like somebody's cooking and it's really nice, right? Or it's really gross. But again, with newer buildings, we do individual what's called unitized ventilation systems so that you're not sucking air out of the building consistently, which is a big cost to the building. But each person's apartment is ventilated. The bathrooms are ventilated according to their needs. If you go into the bathroom, you turn on the vent or it comes on automatically. It's ventilated. If you close the door, it stops ventilating. Same thing with the kitchens. So some things, they've all become comprehensive strategies that are being done now to make sure that people, lighting or even daylight in the apartments, bigger windows, shaded windows when they face south, controlling the views. All those things make people feel like they're part of a community. Things like laundry rooms and making those laundry rooms adjacent to open spaces so that they become social gathering spaces. Make people feel like they're part of a bigger corporate experience that's done to benefit their lifestyle. I know there's a hand raised, but I just want to give a shout out tomorrow who earlier this year actually diagram prone building and identified the laundry room and paintings on the hallways the spaces of tenant engagement and community so Absolutely. It's wonderful to hear that. But yeah, I'll step back because I know there are other questions and particularly from core three students here and. Yeah. Hi. Hi, Victor. Thank you for the conversation. Yes. I'm being advanced fight so it might be a little bit through the lens of a larger question architecture that a lot of the architecture approaches sometimes I was also looking at the poster of the event that it was like all color green. I was just thinking of like the naivety of architecture that sometimes attached green spaces. Therefore, it's a good thing like cliches pitfalls that could happen when we do design housing. If nowadays, what is the approach that allows for knowledge allows for respect to strengthen communities. Because I also think that a lot of the conversation on the Fridays is that the architecture or the architect has a tent, but they doesn't follow through because of management or maintenance. So what is the line that architecture can act upon and then after when we release and some not my not my responsibility but for the management or for the government. You know, that's that's a very, very profound question. It's it's really about the role of the architect, you know how powerful is the architect right how what what what do we do to affect change. And how can we affect change. And, you know, we're essentially saying that not everything is the same. So let's look at the past structure in a development. How, how does a project get developed, right, particularly in. If you want to talk about social housing. One, it starts off from the political will, right. So it starts off from political will in most cases, particularly in larger cities. Where the there's no political will, it then lends to market forces. Okay. And those market forces are combined with some kind of political will that is not as great as the one in cities where they want to subsidize so you could say that in a like Baltimore, for example, in Maryland, where they may not have the resources to subsidize projects, they tend to say okay we'll give you subsidies in land, not in cash, whereas in New York City, they'll give you subsidies in cash, right. So, but those that cash is coming from the political will of the mayor saying I want 200,000 units of housing at all costs. Okay. Okay, so now it boils down to who's controlling the resources to develop those projects. Okay, and how you as the architect can make a difference. I'll give you a particular example. We're working on a project right now, where the political wills there, the money is there, although it's dried up somewhat because of the fact that the city is spending a lot of money on public health, but it's there and this particular project had like 75 units in it and they asked us to redesign it and replace it with 75 units. Now you have to realize that the codes now are a little different because, you know, kitchens are bigger, hallways are bigger, bathrooms are bigger, you know, you have to adapt to ADA or handicap issues or requirements. So it was literally impossible to do that. But the agency that was involved was adamant that we had to give them the same number of units. So we had to, as the architects, convince them that it wasn't possible. That's one. Secondly, the agency was used the same systems in the past. Let's use hydronic boilers for the building. We had to convince them, educate them to an extent that it was better to use unitized mechanical systems. You know, you know, smaller heating and cooling VRF systems that would create this closed wall system without vents in the windows or without using window units so that, you know, essentially throwing money out the window with the heating and cooling of the apartments. We had to convince them that we needed to do better insulated walls and better insulated windows. And we had to follow it up with numbers to show the benefits on the back end in terms of what the savings would be, not only to the agency, to the management company, and eventually to the residents. But once they saw that, they bought into it. So in other words, our role as architects is to also educate our clients. And although most of these residents, when I say clients, I'm talking about the people who are disbursing the funds to build a project. But at the end, the residents may not know who you are, but your role is to try to give them the possible best and to align yourself with developers or city agencies that want to create equity, that want to give their clients the best. And, you know, I think right now the city is on the right path in terms of looking at materials. In fact, that project that we were talking about, once we gave them the impetus to go to the unitized systems, they've now adopted that. So now they're using that with their other projects. So that has a larger influence. So I don't know, did I answer your question that your role is, you know, to be diligent? Your role is to also educate your clients, you know. A lot of people, and I'm not saying every client is like that or every agency is like that. Some agencies, regardless of how much you do, will want to take the path of least resistance and will want to get as much out of the project as they possibly can. So did that answer your question? Yes, thank you. Okay. And on this matter of the influence of political will and the role that architects and planners to some extent have, we have a question in the chat from Hayes. Yeah, it seems that a little bit from where your answer to the previous question ended, but often in the debate over affordable housing and high demand cities, there's a tension between two schools of thought from where I said there's a contention that says that we need to focus on a massive expansion of affordable housing in order to address the large backlog of applicants, but then there's another contingent that says that the relaxation of zoning rules up zoning wealthy neighborhoods and neighborhoods with transit will result in a gigantic spike in market rate housing that will flood the supply of housing in New York City enough to bring the prices down sort of across the board. And this debate is really contentious online, especially the both sides are bring these critiques where the one side will say that new affordable housing is really prohibitively expensive to meet the demand at scale. But other other critiques say that wealthy neighborhoods are really good at resisting up zonings. And, and this can sometimes lead to these zonings being displaced to places like Williamsburg, which saw a lot of gentrification after their rezoning a couple decades ago. So I guess my question is, if you're familiar with that, that argument and where you fall kind of along it. Yeah, I, I believe. I was just going to say that there was a, our last week's discussion was actually on displacement and rezonings. And so just to say that the recording will be online soon but also that if we could ask you to kind of answer, but from the timeline on that tension where you engage with the quality versus quantity of it is a weird fit in neighborhoods and I know you discuss with Joanne, the ways in which good housing and quality housing can engage and activate its surrounding and in particular in black and brown communities but also as Hayes's question points out sometimes there's a desire and political will to locate housing in fancy or wrong way, rich neighborhoods that often exclude affordable housing otherwise.  So they're advocates now that are looking at and are suggesting that, you know, some of these office buildings that are mostly in prime areas, right, converted or zoning is allowed to convert them into affordable housing projects. Of course, you know, there are a lot of people that are, you know, that would be against it, and then there should be a suggestion to add, there's a suggestion to add social services like they can center schools, you know, healthcare and all those sort of things into into those sort of projects. But then then there's this issue where recently with the pandemic, there's the mayor has used some hotels as housing for the homeless in certain upscale neighborhoods, and these people were against that. So essentially the mayor essentially backed off and took them out. So the issue is that I think there's always a need for balance. If you segregate affordable housing in a particular zone without providing services, then those neighborhoods become slums. If you segregate market rate properties where you cannot have young people, young graduates coming out of school, nurses, teachers to live in those places, you now have to transport them from one location to the other one. And it becomes so inefficient and not balanced that you need to create a balance. So when you have market rate and affordability blended together or melded together, you see more services that are, you know, accessible to everyone. So I think the debate is that if you provide more home ownership and you create a balanced environment, obviously you're going to have a much more equitable environment. But the approach in the past was to segregate and that we're seeing is just the wrong news. Obviously things like zoning now rethinking zoning and the whole idea of trying to create this 15 minute community where, you know, it's all walking around, you know, your, your epicenter your home to get to services is, is an approach that we're saying to look at and you now think about zoning that has a mixed component that allows commercial to be a part of the, the building which allows to which causes a reduction in commuting time. So all of these things I think come together to create a much more equitable environment. I, I want to ask one of the questions that Bernadette also wrote in, in the chat, and it's about these perceived trade off between making sure the units are affordable and providing additional amenities that we're seeing now are critical, not only for public health reasons but also to reactivate these neighborhoods and to perhaps to use a phrase that you used in the past to humanize these types of housing developments. So how to address that trade off? How are they, are those types of amenities really that prohibitive in terms of cost, or are they just not part of the traditional way to approach affordable housing design? So let me rephrase your question. The first, yeah, I think there's several questions in that one question, how do you make these apartments or these, these projects affordable, right? Is that the first one? How do you make it affordable? And then how do you provide amenities that are affordable, that encourage developers to build those amenities, right? Okay, okay. So you have to look at the mechanism that is used to build these, and those mechanisms differ from state to state.  Okay, that's their contribution. In New York City, they would give you cash, essentially, for the apartment, and then how does the city get its money back? It's through tax credits, and it's through taxes down the line. Okay, so the incentive, when the city gives the developer the incentive, the grants to do the project, they also come with restrictions. One would be you've got to provide a laundry room, you've got to provide, you know, a little quality housing program. For example, you have to have a laundry room, you have to have a community room, you have to have some daylight in the hallway, you've got to get trees, plant trees on the street. So these sort of amenities come to it. Now, if the city also provides grants, they also want to now, now with the new term sheet, to have about 30% of the people who would be living in the building to be formally homeless or people with special needs. So there's always that caveat. Remember that the city is giving the money to build the building. Okay, now the mixed use part of the building or the other amenities, such as the commercial or the community facilities that go to that. The owners is then placed on the developer to find partners that will occupy those spaces as soon as possible. Otherwise, the developer has to guarantee the project, but again, the developer has all of this play in terms of the number of units. So the other thing too is that when it now I'm talking now when develops developers do good work in terms of providing the amenities and providing the good materials providing good design. They get to be much more favored by the city than developers that don't do work as well. You see, so there's the incentive, there's the incentive, almost like a competition among housing, affordable housing developers to give the best that they can because they're favored by the city when they come back and say, we really liked your projects, you know, I mean, and if there's another RFP, there's a possibility that you're going to get that RFP, or at least you stand a good chance. But if your project is not done well, then you get sort of, you know, scrutinized and somewhat look down upon. So there's the incentive is there one because the city is assisting in helping to do the construction and also that the there's there's a need to continue this relationship. So it's on multiple levels. And of course the architect also wants to always do a good job in making sure that the materials are done. And finally, you want to create a building that costs very little to maintain down the line, but is sturdy enough to be sustainable over time. Yes. Just push a little bit on that. I think I agree that, at least in my perspective, New York City has some amazing designs of new affordable housing, and many of them are yours. But when I looked at and I'm not an architect but when I looked at your projects they really jumped out to me for the quality of amenities, or a shared spaces or open spaces that are available and I don't see that in a lot of affordable housing projects in the city and certainly beyond. So, well one solution is to make the RFP process better by planners in some ways, like me. The, I also wonder what you what your advice would be to young architects and designers I've seen so many of the students in the four three really try hard to put ambitious and interesting ideas about amenities. Extra things into the units and buildings and surrounding spaces. I've also seen a lot of really misguided attempts at well intentioned but things that I know often fail or have seen in housing policy practice. So how did you learn that how do you incorporate that in your design process I guess, how are, why are your projects good and how did they get that way and how can you tell the students to get better from the, to not put all the onus on us planner. Yeah, that's, I think it's a great question.  And sometimes it's best to sell it to stakeholders by showing them what they're going to benefit from it. Okay. Well, how, how are you going to benefit from using stone countertops in an affordable housing project. I have an issue where we use we use literally stone countertops. And the way we do it is that look, if I put a mica for mica countertops or plastic laminate countertops, right in kitchens, they're going to last maybe one or two cycles maximum of residents that live there. You know, five years, 10 years, they start to peel off the developers come back and tear the whole thing apart and start again. Whereas if we use stone countertops, they could last a generation, if you if you take care of it properly. So in other words, we're saying look, look at this. Look at this, this is what your benefit is. Okay, I've made this example several times about using one huge hydronic boiler system as opposed to using VRS right where I'm saying that it cost the same to build the same number of VRS right the same number of HVAC systems for 100 units. As it would, if you were to buy a big boiler. But when you compare the two, if the boiler were to go down, if we were to we was to stop working, you'd have to go out and rent a huge boiler outside the building to keep the heat in the building. Whereas if one unit out of the hundred should break down, all you have to do is fix that one. So you're constantly figuring out ways to show them, you know, that this is a better and much more sustainable, and it's going to be much more cost effective. Then the final thing is, it's about negotiation as well. You know, what we do I when I mean by negotiation. I'm also talking about negotiating the deployment of cost on materials in the building. Okay, so what we try to do is that the things that people touch people see people experience people smell people taste in our buildings, we try to make them as sustainable as possible, and as nice as possible. And things that people don't see things that people don't get to to to touch, we tend to make them effective. But we save on cost there as much as we could possibly so we we spend more on finishes than on the infrastructure. But I'm not saying that the infrastructure is not as important. I'll give you an example. With our home street project, what we did was that we decided rather than the typical way of building a lot of this meteorized 14 story buildings is block and plan prefabricated block, right, a prefabricated plank the plank is the plank what I mean is a concrete flooring, right, is built in a factory ship to the side, hoisted up and then dropped on the block, then it's then built up, you know, on floor after floor so block and plan. That's the typical way of building. In certain cases, people go with concrete port in place cast in place concrete or some people go with steel. So what we do is we weigh the cost very early on in the design process, and we find the fastest and the most cost effective system. With home street in particular, we decided to go with prefabricated panels for the facade. So the facades were built in a factory. The plank was also built in a factory. It was both things were brought to the site and erected one at a time in a week. So we literally built each floor in a week. So we saved maybe six months of time on just interest that would have been put into if the project was a block and plank building, or if it was a casting place building. So we're saving on the cost of the infrastructure, which, again, that's stuff that you don't see it's there servicing the building, and then we applied the savings in interest on the facades of the building on the windows on the breeze so lays and you know the sun shading devices on the finishes, we even saved much more on the rear of the building where we went to insulated panels, which were again prefabricated, as opposed to the front of the building which was done in bricks, which was so the processes were slower. The front was slower than the back, but the cost of the back was much more, it was less than the front. So, again, you learn over time to deploy materials in a way that benefits the building at the end. It benefits what you look at, what you feel and what you use. So it's a sales process, like I said, you've got to give people the incentive to want to go along with you. Well, thank you very much for your time Victor. It was a fantastic talk, I think both architects and non-architects learned a lot and were very encouraged by your experience and your comments on the different stages of how to build affordable housing. I encourage everyone to look at the projects that Victor has made and is currently making because I think they contain very inspiring elements that we can keep learning from. And we hope to see you all next Friday for next conversation. Thank you very much. Well, thank you very much for having me. This is fun, a lot of fun. And good luck with your housing lab. And again, I'm here for you. Thank you, thanks. Of course. Thank you so much.


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