Family Theater presents Gene and Kathleen Lockhart. From Hollywood, the mutual network in cooperation with Family Theater presents Burden on the Family starring Gene and Kathleen Lockhart. Family Theater's only purpose is to bring to everyone's attention a practice that must become an important part of our lives if we're to win peace for ourselves, peace for our families, and peace for the world. Family Theater urges you to pray. Pray together as a family. And now to our drama, Burden on the Family starring Gene Lockhart as Captain Twelve Trees and Kathleen Lockhart as Judy. Did Uncle Abel? I presumed as much. Why must they always build a poor house or a charity hospital in the slums? Well, maybe this wasn't the slums when they built it. It's your right, my dear, but it's almost as old as I am and almost as ready for the records. Oh, please, Uncle Abel. If you'll take the case, I'll carry the radio. All right. You know, if I had my way, you could stay with us forever. No, no, no, no. I learned a lot from some of the savages I've seen. When one of the tribe grows too old to be of any further use, he's driven away from the campfire to die alone. No actual violence is committed, so the tribal conscience is clear. Of course, a few Aborigines simply knock off the old folks on the head with a club. Oh, please, Uncle Abel. Well, maybe the second way is the more merciful. Now, what an inspiring building. The architect who designed that arch had more accuracy than imagination. City home for incurables. Why didn't he make it abandon hope all ye who enter here? The office is over this way, Uncle. And please, let me do the talking. OK. Judy! Judy, wait for me! Judy! Uncle Abel, what on the matter with you? I think I just saw an old friend in that wheel chair. A girl I used to know. A girl? Well, she was a girl back in 1911. Judy Lamport. The most gorgeous creature I ever knew. I'd have married her too, but that was the year that Teddy Roosevelt asked me to... We're late now, Uncle Abel. We're supposed to see a Miss Suggs. She's in charge of admissions. I'm sorry, dear. What? It couldn't have been Judy. Not here? Or she married a millionaire when I was away in out of Mongolia. Desmond. Yeah, Desmond, I think his name was... Oh, here's Miss Suggs' office. And don't say anything unless she asks you a question first. Oh, OK, OK, OK. Well, just don't stand there. Come in. Miss Suggs? Of course. This is Captain Twelve-Trees. How do you do? The board's letter said he was to be here at three. Let me have his papers and sit down. Here they are. Sit here, Uncle Abel. Thank you. Doctor's certificate seems to be in order. And his pauper's oath is properly notarized. And I don't know why they keep sending us ambulatory patients. This home isn't intended for people who can walk around and do for themselves. I suppose not. They're very crowded, too. And I'll see if he can stay. First, I'd like a little personal history. Age? Yes, that was his name, all right? Desmond. Desmond, a bounder, a bounder and a cat. I asked your age, Captain Twelve-Trees. Oh, yes. Seventy-five. Where were you born? San Francisco. How long have you lived in this city? Three years. Ever since the lecture bureau canceled my bookings.  I should aim for radio or television instead of traveling all around the country. Just answer the questions, please. Excuse me. With whom have you been residing? Well, with Mrs. Lipscomb here. She's my niece. Can't you take care of them any longer? Well, we've only a small house and three children. Ned, he's my husband. Ned doesn't make enough to support Uncle Abel and provide the medical attention he has to have and keep the children properly, too. Hasn't any other relatives? Well, no, we're the only ones. I see. What's your occupation, Captain Twelve-Trees? I'm an explorer. Explorer? I didn't know there were any explorers nowadays. Well, there aren't. That's our trouble. The flying machine and the wars put us out of business. Everybody's been everywhere. Explorers. Only place left to explore is Mars. How long you had this ailment? It was two years ago I first discovered I had cancer. We don't mention specific ailments here. Well, that's what I've got. No disgrace, is it? We still don't mention ailments by name. Well, Mrs. Lipscomb, I'll show the captain to the ward. Then he'll be examined by our resident physician, visiting hours or from two to five Saturdays. Isn't there anything more for me to do? Nothing at all. We'll take care of everything from now on. They'll expect to see you Saturdays, Mrs. Lipscomb. This is your bed, Captain Twelve-Trees. Thank you. Hope you have your own pajamas or night shirts. I have. And this is Mr. Keyes. He's been here the longest of anyone in Ward 8, so he has a bed by the window. Why don't you call it what everybody else does, Miss Suggs? The old man's ward. Welcome, Captain Twelve-Trees. Thank you, Mr. Keyes. Do you, by any chance, play chess? I do. I mean, I did. But perhaps I haven't completely forgotten the moves. Good. I've got a board and men with me. Ancient ivory and ebony. Given to me by Amanda, and I once did a favor for him. P. King. Oh, hello, Doctor. I didn't see you come in. This is the new patient, Miss Suggs? Yes. His name's Twelve-Trees. Well, I'll be getting back to my office. Thank you, Miss Suggs. I'm Dr. Vermillion, Mr. Say, you're not Captain Twelve-Trees, the explorer, are you? I am, Doctor. Well, I read about you when I was a kid. Aren't you the one who located Genghis Khan's mountain of power? I am, sir. It was in 1913. 1913? Oh, I wasn't even born then. Now, do you mind taking off your clothes and getting into bed, Captain Twelve-Trees? No. The law says I must give you an entrance examination. And then we'll see what we can do about whatever it is that ails you. I'll be back in about five minutes.  The she-dragon who guards these sacred portals mentioned that you've been here the longest of anyone in the world. Three years and four months, Captain. For your sake, I hope you won't hang on so long. I won't. I have no fear of that. Mr. Keyes, when I entered this delightful institution a few minutes ago, just before I was interviewed by our Cerberus and the white starched uniform, I thought I saw an old friend of mine, a woman, in a wheelchair. Do you have any idea where she might be found? Was she by herself? Yeah. I mean, there wasn't anyone pushing her wheelchair, was there? No, no. She was a chauffeur at herself. Well, and she's probably in the special women's ward on the third floor. Thank you, Mr. Keyes. Now, when the doctor's finished his probing and punching, I'll break out the chess men, and we'll have a go at it.   I am. I was. I'm Mrs. Desmond. Who are you? Don't you know me? Remember the summer of 1911? Oh, was it 12? At Long Branch? And the old West End Hotel? Yes. And the August night we drove to Trenton, and I told you.  Oh, Able, 12 trees. And you wanted to marry me. Oh, my dear, my very dear old friend, how did you find me, Able? How did you know me? Well, I saw you the first day I come in, scuttlin' along the first floor. I called here, but you didn't hear me. Judy, if you've changed, it's only that you're more beautiful than I remembered you. Oh, now I'm sure it's Able, 12 trees. You and your foreign miles. What are you doing here, Able? I, uh, I. Oh, Able, it's so good to see you. It's bad to be old and poor, and worse to be old, poor, and sick. But worst of all, is to be old, poor, sick, and alone. That's what I've been. But now you're here, Able. I won't be alone anymore. Is there a place where we can talk, Judy? A place where we can sit down? Oh, I don't dare take you into my ward more even into the library. I'd scandalize the old ladies. I know the X-ray rule. They only use it twice a week. What's going on here? Don't you know that male patients aren't allowed on the female floors? Oh, Miss Suggs, this is an old friend. He was just visiting me. This isn't a resort hotel. This is a hospital, a charity hospital. Those who don't abide by the rules will have to get out. Why are you, uh, I, I didn't know. Well, you know now, if you want to stay in this home and keep your ambulatory privileges, don't ever prowl around the women's quarters again. I asked you to come to my office for a very special reason, Captain 12 trees. Yes?  You didn't play chess with Mr. Keys.  I didn't feel like eating. Didn't feel like playing chess. I heard the story from Miss Suggs. However, I don't think you're either a peeping Tom or a wolf who chases helpless old ladies in wheelchairs. I'm on your side. Is that what that rock-faced old harradan said? That and more. But don't you worry about it. Mrs. Desmond is an old, old friend of mine, doctor. I, I was in love with her when we were both much younger. Yes. She told me about it this morning. I wish I'd been an obstetrician. I wish I'd never heard of geriatrics. Why, Dr. Vermillion? Captain 12 trees, you're a courageous man, and I can talk to you frankly. It's the futility of the whole thing. If I could just send one person, just one person out of this place whole and well, the job would seem worthwhile. Haven't you ever saved one? Not here. In four years, not one. People aren't admitted here unless they're certified hopeless. Once in a while, I thought I had a victory, but it's always slipped away from me. Captain, do you know what I'd do if I had one cure? Just one. I'd march down to city hall and demand they change the name of the place, home for incurables. That's enough in itself to cause death from psychosomatic trauma. It's medieval. That's what it is. You know what it says in Corinthians, doctor? The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. You win, young fella, but you'll have to have patience. I have patience, Captain. But I don't have the tools. The Board of Health makes up its budget. We're considered last. As it should be. Where money's limited, spend it where you have the best chance. They give me morphine and sedatives and tell me to make everyone as comfortable as possible. I'm a doctor, Captain. I want cures. We didn't get adequate x-ray equipment here until two years ago. It'll probably be years, if ever, before we get the new isotopes and stuff like ACTH and cortisone. Why, if I had ACTH and cortisone right now, I might be able to save a... Save who, doctor? Mrs. Desmond. A year ago, I thought her case was arrested. I still think I could lick it if I had this new stuff. Then get it, young fella. Get it. It's rare, Captain. It's scarce, and every milligram is spoken for. Hasn't come out here yet, and when it does, the private hospitals will get it first. I'd have to go to New York and beg for it. It'd be expensive. Would it cure, Mrs. Desmond? It might. And it might be a complete failure. Still, I'd do it, except...  Well, we're getting away from the reason I asked you in here, Captain Twelve Trees. Now, this is against regulations, but I don't care. If you and Mrs. Desmond want to meet here in my office occasionally, it's all right with me. If anybody catches you, and bis-sugs almost certainly will, just say I ordered you in for an examination. Tonight, Doctor? Huh? After supper? Tonight? Will you ask her? I'll ask her. Oh, thank you, Doctor. Oh, don't call me Doctor. Just call me Cupid. Ah. Judy, 40 years ago, I kissed you, and never once since then, till now. Aren't we the old sillies, Abel? But isn't it nice? Yes. 40 wasted years. Tell me, what happened to Desmond, your husband? Oh, well, he did what a lot of men did in October 1929. Black Thursday. Jumped. Of course, he didn't leave anything but debts, and he took my inheritance with him. But how did you live, Judy? Oh, I managed very well. I worked in a department store until I saved enough to open a little hat shop. I was really very successful, until the illness came. And then I had to sell my business. Bills, diagnosticians, specialist, laboratory fees, operations, hospitals. It doesn't take long to wipe out everything. Indeed, it doesn't, Abel. I went to live with my sister, but her income couldn't provide for both, and both of us, and pay for the medical care. Oh, no, I have to have so much. So I'm here. Dr. Vermillion's a very nice young man. He did the best he could. Yes, and he can do more, Judy, but he has to have money. And I'm, oh, God forgive me for the fortune I've thrown away. I'm as penniless as you, but I'll get the money he needs. I don't know how, but, sorry, help me. I'll get it. Abel. Late tonight, Captain. Don't tell us all keys, but I had a date. A date with a lady. A beautiful lady. Here, sly one, Captain. Just don't let Suggs ever catch you. I won't. Keys, I've got to send about 30 letters. But my hands so shaky, I'm afraid I could never write them. Now, they're all the same. Now, if I write one, do you suppose you could make the copies for me? I'd be glad to, Captain. I haven't written a letter for a long time. You have to have somebody to write to, and I don't have anyone. 12 trees, you shouldn't be walking around. You should be in your bed. Please return to your ward at once. I just came down to ask for some stationery. All we have is stationery with the home's letterhead. Wouldn't want that, would you? Oh, that would be fine. It'll save explanation. I suppose you want to complain to your friends or the newspapers if you have any complaints you can make them here. I have no complaints. How many sheets you want? 30. 30 will do. 30 sheets? That paper costs money. And I want a right to 30 friends. Captain, 12 trees. If you had 30 friends, you wouldn't be here. Miss, I was not. No arguments, please. Here's the paper. Don't ask for any more at all soon. Thank you. I have the letter all finished keys. Read it to me, Captain. Well, it says, dear old friend, I am soon to depart on my last expedition. Where or what the land will be that I explore, I do not know. For this letterhead will tell you it is that boon from which no traveler returns. And before I leave, I need a sum of money. Not for myself, you may be sure, but for a dear friend whom I would not have accompanied me. She's a patient in this hospital. And her doctor informs me that the proper medicines, now unavailable for lack of funds to purchase them, may save her life. I ask you to send me whatever you can. I cannot promise to return the money or even to send back word of what I find. All I can promise is that those who make the journey after me will find a friend. Sincerely. Ah, that's a beautiful letter, Captain 12 Trees. Well, I only hope it gets the job done. Now, here's the list of men I wanted to go to. All right, let's see. Why, these men are all famous. Frances Rogers, Explorers Club, New York. Hey, he was my partner in the go-by deserts. Digby Sandard, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC. Yeah, Digby was my second in command in Anatolia. You know, this may be a wild goose chase keys, but I've got to try it. Some of these men may be dead. Some of them are probably as poor as I am, but some of them may be rich. But a rich man gets so many begging letters, most of them never get passed to secretary. I don't think any secretary will block this letter, Captain 12 Trees. I'll get on him right away and finish him as fast as I can. Here's the first one, Keys. $50 from Digby Sandford. And he writes he wishes he could make it 10 times as much. Three letters today, Keys. $10 from Jimmy Walton, $100 from Darrell Jenkins, and $250 from Jay Carnaghan. Listen to this, Keys, from Frances Rogers. I only wish I'd known sooner and closed his $1,000. God be praised. Oh, that puts us over $3,000, Keys. I think tomorrow we'd better tell Dr. Vermillion what we've been up to. He's asleep, Doctor. He's had a lot of excitement the last few days. Well, what kind of excitement?  Maybe the news I have will pep him up. Captain 12 Trees, wake up. It's Dr. Vermillion. Wake up.  Oh, Dr. Vermillion. What? What did you say?  Isn't that good news? Oh, the very best. And I have good news for her, Doctor. Look at these. Oh, what's this? Pay to the order of Captain Able 12 Trees, $1,000. Frances Rogers. The total amount is $3,270. Well, you plutocrat. What have you been up to, blackmail? Oh, worse than that, I'm a beggar. I wrote 30 old friends, men who've been on expeditions with me, asked them for money, and 28 sent it. The other two are probably dead, so I'm a beggar. Oh, I wouldn't say that, Captain 12 Trees. Your colleagues undoubtedly feel that they're financing an expedition, a daring adventure. That's what it is, you know. Well, when you put it that way, it sounds better. Now, when are you leaving? Leaving? Of course, for New York. What do you think I raise this money for? Right. Now, you buy this ACTH thing in that quarter zone. You buy anything else you need for that $3,000, see? Then bring it back here and use it on Mrs. Desmond or anyone else who needs it. Well, I don't know whether this is ethical or not. I don't suppose it is. But I'll catch the New York train in the morning. Now, Abel, what is it you want to say? Dr. Vermillion's gone to New York. Somebody gave him enough money to buy some new medicines he wants to try on you. Me? Yes. And he hopes that it won't be long before you're all right again. Oh, Abel, I pray that something like this might happen, not only for me, but for everyone here. Now, if he can get one cure, then he can talk turkey to the powers that be down at the city hall. But who gave him the money, Abel? I don't recall that he mentioned any names, but don't worry about that. Just be thankful he's got it. Freeze everything I wanted. Good. I knew you would. I just told him the story, and they gave it to me at cost. Given that, it's expensive enough. But that's not all. If it works on your duty, there's a promise of more whenever I get similar cases. I'm so happy I could turn a cart wheel. Now, you better take it easy, Captain. If I had to make a guess, I'd say the odds were still against us. And by the way, what are you going to do with the rest of the loot? There's over 2,000 left. It's for her, Doctor. All I've got is a past. Maybe she'll have a future. If she gets well, she'll need it. And if she doesn't? Then somebody else will be coming along. Somebody else with a future. You keep the money. All right, Captain. I'm not sure it's legal, but I'll certainly do it. Here's Captain Twelfthree's, Mrs. Desmond. Abel, my dear, my very dear friend. I'm taking Mrs. Desmond through every ward, Captain. And she's telling every patient that she's leaving. It's a new kind of therapy here. Abel, Dr. Vermillion told me who furnished the money for my medicines. I won't try to thank you. How could I say the things that are in my heart? There's no need to. I'll be back every Saturday. Is there anything you want? Anything at all? No, nothing. I've got everything you need. Oh, there must be something. Well, Mr. Keyes here and I, we've been wanting a cheap pair of field glasses. You see, we like to see what's going on out there in the street. We'd make it a hobby, like bird watching, except that it'd be people. Oh, you shall have your field glasses next Saturday. Goodbye, Abel, for the moment. And thank you, thank you, my dear. Goodbye, Judy. Would you like some stationery, Captain 12 Trees? You offering me stationery without my asking for it? Well, yes. See, they're dropping the name incurable. And we're trying to use up our old letterhead paper, knowing how many letters you write, though you haven't been writing so many lately. I thought, well, I. Well, we'll wonders never cease. Thank you, thank you very much. Now, I'd be glad to help you use up your paper. But do you know, Miss Suggs, someday there won't be any such word as incurable. Captain 12 Trees, I think I believe you. Well, here again are our stars, Jean and Kathleen Lockhart. Thank you very much, Tony. It's always a very special pleasure to appear on family theater. It's nice of you to say that. It's very true, Tony. You see, Tony, it's this way. Through this program, we Lockhearts have a chance to do a little promoting. Promoting? Exactly. For something we believe in, family prayer. It means a lot to us, to Kathleen and me, to June. You see, we're an acting family. And as you probably know, the theatrical profession is not what you'd call fraught with security. True. Yet we've always enjoyed a fair degree of security. Oh, there have been times when the going was a little rough, but God has always taken care of us. We think daily family prayer is the reason. For through family prayer, you are actually inviting God into the circle of your family.  And there can be no more valuable member in any family. Inviting God into your family is inviting peace, security, and a thousand other blessings as well. And there's family unity to be considered. Family prayer accomplishes that too. For the family that prays together, stays together.  Family theater broadcast is made possible by the thousands of you who feel the need for this type of program, by the mutual network which has responded to this need, and by the hundreds of stars of stage, screen, and radio who give so unselfishly their time and talent to appear on our family theater stage.  This is Tony LaFranco expressing the wish of family theater that the blessing of God may be upon you and your home and inviting you to join us next week when family theater will present the Pitchfork Expedition starring McDonald-Kerry, Jeffrey Hunter, and Barbara Rush. Join us, won't you? Family Theater has broadcast throughout the world and originates in the Hollywood studios of the world's largest network. This is the Mutual Broadcasting System.


What's up everybody? This is Chris from the rewired soul where we talk about the problem, but focus on the solution. So me, as some of you know, I'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic. So not only did I like to party. My favorite party that I used to go to was a good old fashioned pity party. I used to love just sitting in my room by myself or curling up on my bed in that fetal position, isolating stuck in my thoughts, thinking about how this person's life is better than mine. Why is my life not better? Why am I single? Why don't I have the job I want? Why don't I make the money I want? All these things.  And if you're watching this and you've ever struggled with depression, you know exactly what I'm talking about. This is something I talk with my clients about all the time because I work with a lot of people who struggle with depression. And first I start talking about the root causes of self pity.  Because once you start realizing how much control you do actually have over your situations, then you start to see how much more you can actually do. Because a lot of self pity is based on expectations. Expectations that the brain makes up like my life should be better. I should have a better job. I shouldn't be single. I shouldn't be home alone right now. I should have more friends. All these shoulds in our brain and I will make a video talking about how we start expanding the areas of control that we do have and we start taking back this control which makes it less likely to fall into that self pity. So this depression hack, the reason you're here with me today is to talk about my self pity method. So there is a very good reason why I start every video about how we talk about the problem but focus on the solution. As I mentioned in other videos, I'm sick and tired of people out there just talking about the problem and never giving the solution for it.  So I have over a hundred videos on here. Many of them are providing you with solutions. So my self pity method is that I would time it. I would time it. Like I want everybody who's watching this to be perfectly clear on one thing. It's okay to feel. It's okay to feel bad. It's okay to feel sad. It's okay to feel angry. It's okay to feel upset. It's okay to cry. All of these things are okay. They're normal human emotions and they're there for a reason. That's what makes life life, you know, like once you get through this and start working on some more of these things, you'll start to learn how to love these emotions because they actually make you realize that you're alive. But what I had to do was I had to start timing myself pity. Now in the beginning, when I was doing this, it was a long stretch. I would do this for hours and hours on end. But eventually I narrowed it down to about three hours. So for three hours, do your thing. Go lay down, lay in bed, isolate, eat a tub of ice cream, watch movies, think about how the whole world's against you and sucks, all this stuff. At the end of that time, that's when you flip the switch and you say now it's time to get in the solution. Okay? This is what I started doing. I would give myself a block of three hours. Okay? So if it was nine o'clock in the morning, I would give myself into noon. And then I was like, okay, now what's the solution? And there was plenty of solutions, whether it was meditating, whether it was going to hang out with friends, whether it was journaling, anything that I know is going to help get me out of that funk. Because if we don't set a time limit on it, that starts to expand and take up our whole day. It starts to occupy the space in our brain the entire day about how we just feel terrible about ourselves. And I always try to teach this to my clients who struggle with any type of mental illness. When you isolate, you're locked in the same room as the enemy. All right? So we have to go and be proactive and do things. I will always tell you this. I have never, not once in my entire life, worked with somebody or met anybody who has solved any problem by sitting around isolating in self-pity and stuck in their own thoughts. I have not met anybody who has made that a solution. So you need to recognize that and then go out and start pursuing that solution, whatever it may be, browse around my channel. I have a ton of videos, depression hacks videos, other videos about rebuilding relationships, how to work through anxiety, stuff about addiction, all sorts of things. So make sure you're checking out my other playlist because I'm here to provide you with a lot of solutions. So if you're somebody who constantly finds yourself stuck in self-pity, start giving yourself a time limit. Give yourself a time limit for a week and every week start decreasing it by about 30 minutes, okay? So start at 3 hours, decrease it to 2.5 hours, 2 hours, and eventually you'll start seeing that you're retraining your brain to actively pursue that solution a lot sooner than you ever have before. All right? So I hope this helped you out. If you have any questions, make sure you leave them in the comments below as well as suggestions for other videos. If you're struggling with anything regarding anxiety, depression, any of that stuff, make sure you leave a comment. If you're new here, make sure that right below this box, you hit the little round subscribe button because I'm always making videos to help you overcome your symptoms of mental health. And also, like I mentioned before, if you check to the left side of this screen, you'll see that there are extra videos that you can check out too. So thanks again for watching. This is Chris from the Rewired Soul. I'll see you next time.


Mark Schlag, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today, we're going to look across the sea at the China-Taiwan-U.S. puzzle and ask Margaret Lewis to try to put the pieces together. Margaret Lewis is a professor of law at Seton Hall University in Newark, New Jersey. Professor Lewis has exceptional personal experience and professional knowledge of China and Taiwan, including being a Fulbright senior scholar at National Taiwan University, studying at the Hopkins Nanjing Center for Chinese and American Studies in Nanjing, China, and her current scholarly research, which focuses on law in China and Taiwan with an emphasis on criminal justice and human rights. And I'd like to welcome Professor Lewis. How are you? Good to see you. I'm good. Thanks. Coming at you from across the Pacific in Oregon, I was just at the coast the other day, so I could wave. And you are a professor at Seton Hall in New Jersey. So you're going across all the continent of the United States. But a lot of your time has focused on China and Taiwan. And I want to ask you first, the personal question, how did you get so deeply interested in China and Taiwan? And I mean, when I described your background, that was just a small part of it. What got you interested in China and Taiwan? I am a deep believer in people-to-people relations because that's what got me into this in the first place. I'm originally from Madison, Wisconsin. And when I was 10 years old, a Chinese woman from Shanghai lived with my family because she had been brought over through a program arranged through the UW to teach Chinese in one of the local high schools. And she needed a host family for various reasons. We ended up being that family. And it really was an amazing experience. She had had a tremendously difficult life in many ways, having been raised and during the Cultural Revolution and time after. And so I got interested in China. I started studying Chinese. I was an East Asian studies major in my undergrad years. And then I first went to China in 1995 on an exchange program, spending time in Beijing, Nanjing, and then a spring at Fudan University in Shanghai. So that's where it all began. You know, it's amazing to hear that. I mean, so many synchronistic instances, people meeting people affect the rest of our lives. And we could probably talk for hours just about that. But I want to focus now on the shifting relationship between China, Taiwan, and the United States. I am really puzzled. I mean, I've enjoyed China going to Shanghai and different places within China over the years. And it seemed like only a few years ago that China and the United States were moving closer, both socially and economically. Now it seems like China and the United States are enemies. And that war over China's goal of bringing Taiwan under its control seems increasingly possible. And I want to ask you, what happened? Why? Well, you are confused with good reason. It's a complicated situation. As I said, I first went to China in 1995. I didn't go to Taiwan until a decade later. And when I first did that, it was, at that point, there weren't direct flights across the strait. You had to go via Hong Kong or another route. And I went at that point because I was studying domestic legal reforms in Taiwan with my dear friend, teacher, mentor, Jerry Cohen, who just turned 93 last week. So a happy birthday to Jerry Cohen. And at that point, Taiwan-U.S. relations were pretty quiet. And certainly it was seen by a lot of people as kind of questioning me why was I spending time on Taiwan when all the action was to look at China. But I'm grateful that I started going that during the Chen Shui-bian presidency and only a decade after the first direct presidential election and still some of the vestiges of martial law were in place because I've seen over the last 15-plus years just how much has changed domestically in Taiwan. But as you note, also just tremendous changes in U.S.-China relationships, as well as the triangular Beijing, Taipei, and D.C. dynamics. And I think there's many drivers for that. And one is that we have since Xi Jinping came into power. But even before that, and I think looking back to around the 2008 Olympics in Beijing and the rollout of security technology and greater surveillance, we started feeling even then in our work looking at, did I say, we academics and people in NGOs who were working on various programs with our counterparts in China, whether it be on death penalty reforms or social society involvement, that there was a chill starting and that we've had a more repressive turn. And that has only been ramped up in the last five-plus years as Xi Jinping not just consolidated power but really took center stage and sort of the collective leadership we were used to went diminished even further. So I think the greater repression in China, certainly Taiwan watched so closely as the last few years in Hong Kong and the national security law coming in there and a real erosion, if not destruction in some ways of civil liberties and civil and political rights. That's been something that has caused more of a cleavage across the straight. The U.S., we saw tensions growing under Obama but then under the Trump administration, whether it be tensions with respect to trade, which were huge, greater wariness about the buildup of China's military capabilities and what that meant in the South China Sea and elsewhere. So just a number of reasons that these relationships are much more fraught and the U.S. and China are certainly competitive. I hope they're not enemies. I wouldn't say that framing, but it is a very challenging relationship today. And I expect that to continue for the foreseeable future. Well, OK, and one of the focuses and it's sometimes hard to see it. And that's part of the puzzlement is what is this motivation about annexing Taiwan? What is moving China towards that? It seems like peace and prosperity are a good alternative. And is this something you mentioned, President Xi? Is this President Xi's motivation or is this a Communist Party? Or is this the people of China? What is motivating this focus on bringing Taiwan into China, unifying it with China? And to be clear, the longstanding position of the PRC government has been the one China principle. Taiwan is a part of China. That is not new under Xi Jinping that has been there forever. And that's rooted in historical claims from Beijing that you go back before there was a PRC, before there was a Republic of China, but under the Qing dynasty, which did exercise loose control over Taiwan, really starting from the late 17th century. And then in 1895, for the treaty buffs, you had the air and get some law in there, international law, the Treaty of Shimenoseki. And this is when the Qing dynasty handed Taiwan over to the Japanese. There are arguments from people take a position more in line with the PRC government that that was an unfair treaty. It should not be respected, but just not just acknowledging that argument, not necessarily subscribing to it for the then the next 50 years. Japan colonized Taiwan. And it's very interesting because you still see that influence in the buildings, architecture and cultural affinities. And then it was only after World War Two that this real issue then came up about what was the status of Taiwan. And of course, at the same time, you had the civil war going on across the strait and then ultimately, Shanghai Shek and the KMT, the Kuomintang government, moving over to Taipei and and doing so in a way that they set up a martial law extremely repressive. And, you know, people that were already in Taiwan, many of them suffered greatly under the white terror, as it was known, thousands died. And but all along the PRC then said Taiwan is a part of of of our territory. Now, where the US comes in is the US has what's called the one China policy policy and principle here being very different. And the US, especially this became a huge issue when in the 1970s, the US switched recognition, formal diplomatic recognition from the Republic of China government to the People's Republic of China. And, you know, what would that mean for Taiwan? And ever since then, and with the setting up of the Taiwan Relations Act, we've had this relationship that is it's unique. And I think unique is an overused word, but there's really no other relationship like that that we see between the US and Taiwan, where it is not a formal diplomatic relationship, but a very, very close one. But what's critical here is when the US switched recognition to the PRC, the United States acknowledged the position of the PRC government that they they that Beijing took the position that Taiwan was a part of China. But the US did not recognize, endorse, you know, that position. So the US has always said, you know, we are not taking an official stance on this status of Taiwan. At the same time, under the Taiwan Relations Act, the US government made commitments to help support Taiwan, including with arms of defensive nature. And we've existed with this status quo, this kind of strange, no ambiguous zone for many decades. And it's been durable and worked quite well, but that is under strain. And it's unclear going forward, sort of how resilient that status quo structure is. I will just add that, you know, the people of Taiwan, you know, this is there's 23 million people who call Taiwan home. And polling shows that the majority favor keeping the status quo. I mean, that's a majority. This is people who are very aware of the challenging the position they're in. So maybe they would choose differently. If I know there were rainbows and butterflies and unicorns and they could have everything they want. But in general, just to that, the people of Taiwan say, you know, it's it's maybe an odd arrangement in some ways. It's certainly not your traditional structure, but the status quo has has worked in many ways. OK, so you've helped me a little bit to understand there. There's and let's put up a map of Taiwan and it right. I mean, it's so close to mainland China. And what I hear you saying and correct me if I'm wrong, is that basically we have the United States and China and have a competition going on just between themselves as countries. But then the Taiwan issue, China sees unification as the right thing to do. I mean, historically, it's a little different than just strict competition. It is. The proper or we would say in Hawaii, Pono, the right thing to do, the right thing to to get back Taiwan to China. And it because it was taken improperly and it was abused. And and so is that is that a correct? Am I seeing that correctly? Though those two issues, one is just a natural competition between two major economic countries. And the other is is a historical issue about doing the right thing. I don't know. Yeah, it's really doing the right thing, just that the PRC position being it is the thing like that that Taiwan is a part of China. Period, full stop underscore end of conversation. Like that is just a non-negotiable point. You know, and I would just add with that, you know, that, you know, of course, too, since World War Two and there was Japan gave up Taiwan, there's some ambiguity about and what it went to. But of course, since World War Two, we've had decolonization around the world. We've had the rise of the emphasis on self-determination as a fundamental human right. And so there's historical aspects to this. But there's also, you know, someone who studies human rights. Just what should those 23 million people what say should they have in their future, not just in who they say is their president. We have an election coming up in January in Taiwan. But this emphasis and the U.S. does recognize this as part of their one China policy. And it came in to the language of the one China policy under Clinton that any changes in the cross-strait relationship should be done with the ascent of the Taiwanese people. They have a democracy and their future is something that they should determine. Well, they're there. Yeah. So there's conflicting what the right thing to do is amongst the different countries. And you mentioned two things that I want to ask you about. First of all, you mentioned that the Taiwanese people, how they feel about it. Do you have any idea about how the people of mainland China feel about the unification? Is there any is there any way to gauge that? It's much easier to do polling in Taiwan.  I care deeply about my friends there, you know, don't want to speak for them. But I do feel confident that we have good polling in Taiwan. Some polls better than others, but but that's there. Much harder to get that sort of information from China. There's not the openness where academics can just come over from the U.S. or whoever and start asking questions for data driven work. And we've also had a much harder time, of course, going to China because of the pandemic and this traffic of academics, people from think tanks is only starting to pick up slowly. And I have high hopes that that will gain more momentum because we need that kind of contact. That said, I feel confident in saying that I think if you asked, you know, people in China, they would say that Taiwan is a part of China. And that is something that has been so much a part of the the government's position of education from the time they opened a textbook as kindergartners, that that is that is fundamental to a widespread view. People might vary and what they think should be done to effectively bring Taiwan under the control of the PRC government, sort of what risks, what costs they're willing to bear. That I just don't have a good sense of that texture because we haven't been able to do the work to really get reliable information on a widespread scale. OK, all right. Now, you also mentioned the presidential election coming up in Taiwan. Now, how is that affecting this issue? Is that being talked about? Is there forces on both sides talking about the unification matter with mainland China in Taiwan in the presidential election process? We have. Yes. So first of all, there's a long way between now and January 13th, which is going to be the election. Taiwan politics are never dull. And so I'm kind of hesitant to say too much because, especially because two of the three candidates and it is a three way race have had to say basically nothing because they've been focused only on domestic politics. So the KMT, their candidate, Ho-Yo-Wee, is the mayor of New Taipei City, Shenzhen, and when you're the mayor, you don't really have to say what's going on with Beijing or D.C. And so this is new. But the KMT in general has tried to paint the DPP, the party that is currently in power under Tsai Ing-wen, as being destabilizing and making it more likely there's going to be a conflict. The DPP, which has been in power for the past eight years under President Tsai Ing-wen, she cannot run for a third term. The person running for the DPP is Lai Qingde, William Lai, the current vice president, who traditionally was seen as perhaps, we would say, deeper green, which means that he was more associated with the pro-independence under the name of Taiwan kind of platform. But he has increasingly made clear he is quite moderate. He's very close to the president's size position, though Beijing, I don't think trust that. And then the third candidate is the former mayor of Taipei, and that is Mayor Ko, Ko En-chou, who has created his own party that is trying to emphasize that it's very pragmatic. And listen, hey, we want to get things done. Because also Taiwan has tons of issues that needs to deal with that have nothing to do with China, very little energy. They import close to 100 percent of their energy needs. Demographic pyramids been inverted and the lowest birth rate in the world, which puts huge pressures on the society. So Taiwan has a lot of problems to deal with that have nothing to do with Beijing. As well. And is Beijing trying to influence, you know, who gets elected? Is there any idea? Not openly, right? And they wouldn't just say, like, here's who we want to have elected. There is great concern about both disinformation and misinformation. To what extent it's people just having wrong information that's coming from Beijing and putting it out there as compared with more nefarious motives of trying to purposely create confusion and even false information about candidates. There's some a lot of NGOs as well as government sponsored work that's trying to look at this to make sure that the election is free and fair and widely believed to be so, not just actually so by the populace. But there's I think it's safe to say that Lai Qingde and the DPP would not be the preferred outcome of of Beijing. But it's sort of unclear. I think I'm hesitant to say at this point, where in the whole yo-wee and and Coenjo, like where they're coming out. But I'm going to be in Taipei in less than two weeks. So I'll put my ear to the ground and see what I can find out. OK, now you you were a member of an independent task force for the Council on Foreign Relations that recently issued a report titled US Taiwan Relations in a New Era, responding to more assertive China. What was that about? Why did it come about? What were the key findings and recommendations of the task force report? And we got up on the screen, the link to that task force report. Yes. And if you Google CFR Taiwan, you'll be taken to it. It's readily accessible. I first say that I'm a member of the Council on Foreign Relations as well as on this task force that had about I think 17 of us chaired by Sue Gordon and Mike Mullen, both amazing experts in intelligence and the military and the program. The project director, David Sacks, has tremendous background in studying Taiwan, so it was a great group to work with. And but the CFR itself does not take any positions on policy. This was very much an independent group of experts coming up with our views. And and it was complex. And you'll see that in the report that there's a number of additional views, partial dissents, I issued one because there is so much texture and debate about these these issues. We all agreed as a group to that the one China policy was that was the way to go, that the US should continue to continue that policy, which has some wiggle room and that can have strong relations. But but that the US does not take a position on the ultimate status of Taiwan. Taiwan has agency. We support that. But at the same time, being very clear that the task force felt it was critical that the US needs to stand up against the use of force and coercion. So not just showing up landing on the shores of Taiwan, but the gray zone tactics that we're seeing, the increase in flight activity around Taiwan by PLA that the PRC military forces shows of how the PRC could eventually perhaps use a blockade or other ways to quarter to make it so Taiwan was inaccessible. So making this combination of having a military presence that could deter help to deter any more aggressive actions by the PRC. But I and others as well as the task force in general, but I emphasize this in an additional view, the importance of the diplomatic side that you don't just need military deterrence, but you also need reassurance that the US policy had not changed and that the US was not taking a position on the ultimate status of Taiwan. And that ultimately, I hope that every day that Xi Jinping gets up and decides that it's not a day to take a more forceful stance towards bringing Taiwan under his control is a good day. Well, and when I read the report, it gave me actually was a little scary. It did sound like there was more of a potential for. War or some type of aggressive action by. The China that would get the United States involved. And I mean. So it seemed more possible as a from what I read than I thought originally is is is that is that the general task force. Idea is that the do they believe is that the you concluded? The task force, we coalesced around a sense of unease that, you know, there were factors in all parts in Taiwan and in US and in China that makes only the possibility for conflict more likely than it was even probably five years ago and certainly 10 years ago. This does not mean that a kinetic conflict, but actually military conflict is inevitable war is an if not a win. But it is important that's why we need this combination of diplomatic reassurances as well as military deterrence. There's difficult to figure out where that sweet spot is. But we need to have both of those going side by side. I'd say, too, that the importance of communication, I'm glad to see that we've got now Kerry going over next week, we just had Yellen Blinken, we need to have high level communications. In part because I look back 20 years, I wrote my law school paper on the 2001 EP three collision when the US surveillance plane collided with a Chinese fighter jet and that was a that was a crisis. It was walked back. It was dealt with in a way that was resolved peacefully. I do worry that if there was some sort of inadvertent collision, something goes bump in the night, would the US and China be able to deal with that kind of crisis in a way that didn't escalate, especially with, you know, forces, domestic forces on both sides and rising nationalism in China? So so we were, I think, you know, yes, very wary, but at the same time determined that this is a situation that does not have to end in conflict. And there are there is more that can be done on all sides to try to make it so there is diminished likelihood going forward of some sort of really catastrophic event. Well, and I really like what you say about the diplomacy strategy. And I've seen now, to me, very hopeful, these various visits by US government officials to China. And how about Pelosi's visit and other government officials to Taiwan? Is that affected anything with that was that was that was, you know, of course, you know, a lot of there was a strong response from the PRC when that happened. That was not unexpected. You know, they were going to do that. I think, you know, one thing that was interesting was making clear the US making clear to China that Biden doesn't get to tell Pelosi what to do. You know, we have it goes back to Schoolhouse Rock and separation of powers. And, you know, and this is this is not, you know, it's a different situation over here with respect to who gets to tell what who what they can and can't do. I think overall, the lessons from that, though, and this is very clear in the Task Force report is to be cautious when it comes to symbolic gestures. You know, yes, it feels good. And I want deep in my heart for people who identify as Taiwanese to come to the US and fly the flag that they consider their own and do these things. But at the same time, you know, when it comes to sort of what what is the representative of the government and Taiwan government in the US called, you know, well, that, you know, is that something that you want to say? It should be ambassador. If that's going to provoke Beijing in a way that what are we really gaining? So one message that we had is to think carefully about policy and US Taiwan policy that you're focused on substance, stronger economic ties, making sure that you have a resilient Taiwan, not just their military, but the populace, you know, what are the things that are going to keep semiconductors supply chains in place? You know, that's what really matters. And to not let sort of the momentary like let's throw that into legislation make it so that we're taking what is a very challenging situation and fueling perhaps, you know, some dynamics that that are not going to be productive. You know, I like your personal insights into both China and Taiwan. And we have about a minute left in our program. Is there something you'd like to let Americans know about Taiwan and its citizens and China and its citizens and the potential to work together and live in peace and security going forward? I had two things. So with Taiwan, I really think that I'm delighted to see more stories focusing on the domestic joys and triumphs in Taiwan. Taiwan has the Constitutional Court demanded that there be same sex marriage. There was a recent ruling that requires that people who are in same sex couples be allowed to adopt from outside the relationship. I mean, it is a really vibrant overuse for Taiwan, but it is a vibrant society and so much more than just the security issues that dominate the news with China. I think there, too, I hope that we're going to get more tourism or people going. I have deep, deep affection for my friends there. And one thing that I've been working on is a whole other topic for another time. But I am worried that the tensions in U.S.-China relations have made it so that people who identify as Chinese heritage in the United States have faced greater bias, xenophobia. And not only is that just flat out wrong because we shouldn't treat people in any particular way based on where they're from, where their ancestors are from. But I also just think, you know, when we think about the U.S. and I hope the U.S. has a strong science and technology going forward, that that's driven in a significant part by welcoming the best and brightest minds from all over the world. And I really hope that we can continue to do that as a society. Well, I really like your insight and your views. And obviously, you feel deeply about this. I can tell you're passionate about China and Taiwan. Thank you, Professor Margaret Lewis, for your insights and your discussion today. We greatly appreciate it. Give us a lot to think about. Well, thank you so much for inviting me. I really, really enjoyed the talk. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Check out our website, thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.


What's going on everyone Sam here with late in sports cards rip in at 23 if Nemo's a football hobby six box break number seven pick your team Style once the list of names and teams loads. I will read it off. It's currently not loading. There we go We've got Alexandros Buccaneers Alvin W. Colt's Brian C. Bill's Korea's Titans Ravens Edward G with the Falcons Jerry B Raiders Joe P Packers John a Steelers Josh W. Chargers Justin C. Chiefs Claw's W. Saints Louis L. Dolphins Nathan S. Browns Neil M. Niners Nicholas S. Giants Nicholas O. with the Lions Noah B. Panthers Paul L. Jets Robert R. Bears Roy M. with the Eagles Seth B. Bangles Spencer M. Seahawks Steven M. with the Viking Steven U. Texans. Taco K. with the commanders Terry S. has the Cowboys Todd C. Cardinals Todd P. Rams Von with the Jags and Patriots and Wayne P. with the Broncos. I gotta do one thing really quick everybody fold on just one sec Before we get going on to this first one I'm actually watching Orioles Guardians. Oh my god, Von. Oh my god That is wild Orioles Guardians. I mean, I guess that kind of makes sense because playoff race I guess these games kind of do start to matter a little bit more This isn't just like watching the Orioles Guardians in like July Good luck. Here we go Mosaic Hey, I'm gonna Johnson debut Tank Del Rookie Mike Evans blue cam Jordan to 99 Gonna do a dice roll on the carbon copies One two three left four five six right for all these cards if it is a gold or lower I will do a separate random at the end of the break.  It's gonna go the right with Jay Jeddah's as a purple Dalvin cook to Nothing, it's not a purple just kidding. It looks like a purple, but evidently is not Stray hands silver gyre brown digs thick base No, it's a good game, man. I know defensive game here That is gonna be one of one Zach Charbonnet Black mosaic auto congrats Seattle Is going to who's got the Seahawks in this break? Spencer M. Congrats Spencer of one right as forest brings up a black mosaic We pull a Zach Charbonnet that's got to be a sign then for us that you're gonna pull the Bijan on fanatics live tomorrow That was weird. That was eerie. I've been pulling some heat on mosaic so far So yeah, Devin Witherspoon rookie Chris Jones to 199 who you could tell how much it helped when he was back When Chris Jones was back man, holy JSN again Is a red tana Hills silver debut of flowers and center stage canine Copled and cold Lotu John Randall purple color match to 49 for the Vikings down silver and base That's weird a lot of Zach Charbonnet coming from LSC evidently CJ Stroud debut Marcus Allen Jordan Love and a men of mastery Travis Kelsey Bryce Young debut Joe Montana, that's a Cedric Tillman nice one there one last teams taken was Cleveland That'll be going to Cleveland Jim Kelly red CPAT and silver Pat Pete. That was nasty Jay Caner orange Zach Martin to 199 Kiles will Anderson and Purple Bijan to 49. 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He has she's That's gonna be rough Tyler Lacey Alan Lazard mosaic blue Kenneth Walker to 99 Seahawks again Center stage Russ Broncos Conchley, let's ride Kincaid Darius Davis Jerome Bettis and Jalen waddle montage Paris Johnson Johnson masterclass Cowboys god dude That'll be a shootout Herman Moore to 49 congrats on that lions nice purple red Sean Clifford We'll have a silver debut and silver montage. Oh John. Oh wait a moment in time of the helicopter game 17 to go everybody on mosaic fast break. Let's get that filled up basketball That is the next break with spots currently is mosaic fast break. I have two five boxers of that well, well, well DTR Richard Sherman Josh Jacobs to 49 for the Raiders nice one there That if Anthony is telling you to mix in a water Peter Skoranski Silver Jamiro Gibbs very true on that rough redemption is Stetson Bennett rookie mosaic autograph purple. Let's go to the Rams Stetson Bennett the fourth Congrats Rams For this silver Jake Moody rookie nice one there Kincaid Evan Ingram purple Josh Downs to 49 CJ Stroud introductions Oh, no Now we really got the crew in here That's a Anthony Richardson blue on the rookie 40 of 99 congrats on that Indianapolis Hell yeah, dude get that into a mag Everything it's falling apart now silver Jamar Chase Blue George Kittle montage to 99 red Davis Mills silver warrants Taylor and Deshaun Hudson Yeah, no Yeah, pretty much any big color of any true rookie color of any of the big guys. Yeah Juju France Harkins in center stage of Oh, yes Jordan Madison White is a Mari Cooper.  I just won their browns one of 25 Cameron Latuz silver It's base and base Get red socks you want a cespidus. Oh my lord Geez Zay flowers mosaic debut orange Darren Waller to 199 and Splash mosaic is the Andre Swift I Will Anderson pick it fire and young mosaic rookie Bijan and moments in time is So unwarranted Henden Hooker debut rookie That is DJ Johnson for the Panthers mosaic rookie silver bossa and base Rosni Castillo, dude. Oh my god That guy is just counting his money right now That guy is just counting his money. He stole from the Red Sox Brad with a flawless left-side spot. Thank you, buddy. Again 17 to go mosaic fast break everybody Triple-A goat Rosni Castillo. Yeah, he's like a quadruple player Blake's y-art Will Middlebrooks Justin Fields orange Cam Jordan To 199 and center stage CMC Tyree Wilson Aaron Rodgers and another Aaron Rodgers met a mastery. Ah, dude Michael Meyer silver Cooper cup Jackson Smith and Jigba debut That is Larry Brown white auto to 25 for the Cowboys. Nice one. 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That was the year they beat the year they beat the Niners He's right there with Lions and Juan Bolden. Oh my god DJ Turner, there's silver Marvin Mims. I can't really like claim Don't be jaker while he's in the cage AI jakers speaking in third person now I can't really claim and Juan Bolden Unfortunately, because he wasn't he didn't have his best seasons in Baltimore Yeah, I didn't give her caught over a thousand yards, but you still integral and that Super Bowl win but The Suggs pisses me off a little bit Russell Wilson Vince Young and base Anthony Richardson debut orange is Joe Burrow color match national pride to 199 silver Paris Johnson Deontre Swift splash to 99 on a blue Hinden Hooker rookie Aiden O'Connell. It's a 49 purple infocus auto congrats Raiders Nice one Vegas again. Raiders are another good value team in this I picked them up today to Tavius Martin and Over on that it's live with Kyle and they did fairly well actually Speaking of fanatics live forest is live tomorrow morning on fanatics live in crew breaks Monta Smith Aaron Rodgers red nice one there Paul silver Dorian Thompson Robinson Jared golf orange tastes him hill to 199. I become aware. 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I was so mad there Kenri Mark Dupur To 49 nice one there for the Dolphins Jets tie law. Oh God Yeah, that ain't a great site Chris Jones Darius Davis and silver. Yeah, tie law is a jet in And in playbook. No, it's I don't have it anymore. It's at my house in Connecticut still I don't think I'd fit into it will levis blue Calvin Hill I just won there for the Cowboys to 99 silver Adam feeling and a purple moments in time Lamar color match to 49 Oh, I was so mad when Tori Smith left dude He I still kind of view him as a trader. That's Tyree kill Aiden O'Connell to 99 I still view Tori Smith as a trader in my Matt Moe could definitely fit into it Moe Moe can legitimately wear like a probably a child's large yeah be John Robinson Sam Laporta There's one day when he was leaving and Sean goes look at him. What you mix in a burger and then He what's it called? Anthony Richardson. He was leaving and I look at your dad. I go. 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You're not so offended by that What a bot All right, we've got blues to 99 Calvin Hill Aiden O'Connell Deandre Swift Taysom Hill Terrell Suggs Lawrence Taylor Ken Anderson George Kittle Jordan Addison Kenneth Walker Cam Jordan purples to 49 Josh Downs my quick be John Robinson Marge Jackson John Randall to 25 Amari Cooper manual Forbes tessellation of 15 That one's cool. All those we had Stetson Bennett Cedric Tillman B.J. Ojalari tank Bigsby Tyler Scott Mark Dooper Herman Moore Aiden O'Connell Josh Jacobs Luke Musgrave Larry Brown blue Anthony Richardson to 99 And how about a one-of-one Zach Charbonnet black mosaic auto For the Seahawks. I'll do it for the break guys. Thanks again for the pill up next. We've got number nine