as they as they're ready. So my name is Dr. Amanda Chisholm and I'm a senior lecturer in School of Security Studies, a lecturer on gender and security. I'm also the organizer and the chair of this new Voices in Global Security seminar series. This is the second year it's been running and it's designed to showcase the vibrant and brilliant research of our PhD and early career researchers across the school and give it give us a chance to engage in the the different research that is taking place. So today we have Dr. Andrea Espinosa up who is going to be talking on a presentation titled Productive Violence Identifying Narratives Used to Legitimize Abuse. So Dr. Espinosa is a lecturer in the International Relations and Gender Education here in the Department of War Studies. She's also a feminist researcher who focuses on women's and indigenous rights in Latin America, particularly in Ecuador and the Andean region. Her work aims to understand how women interact with law institutions and development projects and her work considers women's active involvement in the interpretation, confrontation and adaptation to normative frameworks. In that sense she is interested in how women react, adapt and or normalize behaviors to survive, endure or disrupt hierarchies in the subordinate of power structures. Her research follows a feminist and decolonial epistemology and relies on ethnographic and arts-based research methods. So Dr. Espinosa has a MSc in Latin American Development and a PhD in Gender and Development here at King's College London and before working as an academic she was a journalist in Ecuador. So Andrea here is joined today by Professor Yelka Bolston who will act as her discussant. Professor Bolston is a professor in Gender and Development here at KCL. Her current research focuses on the transformative gender justice in post-conflict societies. The idea that interventions to address gender injustice such as violence against women and girls should aim to transform the social, political and economic relations that underpin the possibility of violence. And recently Yelka finished a collaborative project exploring the transformative potential of memorial art and symbolic reparation. I want to welcome you both a warm welcome and thank you for joining us today. So Andrea has agreed to talk for about 20-ish minutes and share some slides for then we'll hand over to Yelka for discussant and then open to you the audience for any sort of questions or comments. You can either raise your zoom hand to ask the question live or just type your question in the question answer and I will ask it to Andrea after that. I think that's all clear. Everyone's good to go. Great Sandra without further ado I'm going to pass the virtual floor over to you. Thank you. Thank you Amanda for everything including inviting me and making the summary of my research which is always weird to hear. So I'm going to start sharing my PowerPoint. Hopefully you can see my PowerPoint now. I'm what you're going to see are mostly images. I apologize because most of them or a lot of them have a lot of Spanish there but I think it really goes with the presentation so hopefully that's not a problem. So years ago when I started my research about violence against women and legal systems one of my colleagues asked me why do men hit women? I answer because they can. That answer holds as I will explain today some social norms condone certain type of gender based violence. However during this presentation I aim to add that violence against women is also productive violence as it facilitates the functioning of a patriarchal and capitalist society. Now how productive could it be to perform an act that could easily be judged as a crime and that could that which consequences as car victims in a way that affects their psychological and physical well-being? How productive could it be in a way to do something that can damage networks and disrupt societies? Since the early 2000s international organizations have been working on establishing the socio-economical cost of violence against women and girls. In Ecuador the South American country and focusing for this analysis a 2013 study explained that small business owned women suffer because of things as violence. The document mentions how violence impacts the amount of time that women can give to their enterprises and reduce the amount of money that that they can invest in them. It states that one woman can lose around 54 days dealing with the consequences of violence and her business can lose more than a thousand more than two thousand dollars because of the violence. This is without considering the amount of money the Ecuadorian state has to invest in topics like the protection and prevention of violence. So that's around four thousand million dollars per year. These very quantifiable consequences of violence against women have been also analyzed in India, Uganda, Vietnam as well as the EU, Canada, the United States and the UK. These findings related to the socio-economical cost of violence against women and girls can only be added to the violence of the violation of women's rights that are penalized, offences in national and international law. So then if violence against women so clearly generates losses to the state and individual how can it be called productive? What is productive about violence and why am I deciding to call it this way? When I refer to productive violence I am too disclose to make visible the amount of the level of entrenchment that violence has in everyday life. When discussing productive violence we are discussing gender-based violence and violence against women and girls not as something exceptional but as a practice with a purpose to subdue and control women girls and feminized bodies. While studies effectively argue about the amount of money and opportunity lost to violence they render invisible that with high levels of violence one in every three women experience some type the world keeps going around. In Ecuador six in every ten women have experienced some type of violence during their lives and the state keeps being a functional state. Moreover it is categorized as an upper middle income country with potential of growth and prosperity according to the World Bank. In this sense the subordination of women and girls implemented using violence in its many forms allows society to function as it had always has by establishing patriarchal structures set to extract free labor and create and enforce structures of obedience. The previously depiction of violence as a loss of money and opportunity are a structure around the idea of future gains and future opportunities available to the state and individual lost because of violence. However those changes in patterns or behaviors are meant so any change to those patterns and behaviors are meant to be an improvement in an already working system. The patriarchal society and state its systems of production and organization function in a way that are already effective self-reproducing and self-defending. The use of the concepts of productive violence allows us to explore who is benefiting from violence against women and girls and feminized bodies and have a better understanding of why is so widespread and normalized. Gago Verónica and Argentinian scholar explain that one of the main advantage to account for the specific economy of violence against women, lesbians, transvestites and trans people is that we can move beyond the interpretation of violence as a crime or as isolated pathologies or deviant behavior. After all as it is written in many graffitis in Latin America and the world he meaning the perpetrator of violence is not sick he's a healthy son of patriarchy. Violence against women, girls and feminized bodies allows an effective function of a society that extracts free labor from women, enforces norms about sex and sexuality and perpetrates hierarchies that will enable the governance of certain bodies. In that sense we can understand productive violence as a facilitator to a desirable purpose. Violence becomes expected, accepted and even desired. In the case of gender-based violence and violence against women and girls used to provide punishment or irregular for irregular behavior, teach a lesson to unruly bodies, create or restore social hierarchies and reproduce social norms within a group. There is normality and acceptance in the infliction and experience of violence in those cases be it physical or psychological. It creates a maintain and order within a group. To illustrate I will use three examples. When I was growing up so this is violence against women and girls and the idea of a destruction of free labor. When I was growing up there was a common joke among adults what is the best way to give women a little more freedom? The answer was expanding the kitchen. The joke reinforced women's role within reference, the women's role within the household and their experience and how they exist within the home boundaries. The kitchen was that place intimate tied to women competence. The kitchen is a space tied to women's unpaid and under value reproductive and productive roles. As explained by Federici, the power difference between women and men and the concealing of women's unpaid labor and their the cover of natural inferiority have enabled capitalism to expand and to foster male workers patterns of devaluating and disciplining women and children to maintain their power and respect to capital. Women cook, women clean, women serve. Women work in the household is one of their unpaid responsibilities and womenly duties even when they have work outside the home. Violence plays a role an important role in maintaining those dynamics. It is not just that violence it is not just the violence of a blow, a kick, a smack meaning physical violence, but the symbolic violence experienced in the shame of not fulfilling a duty or failing in an expected role. In Ecuador, according to a national statistics published in 2019, 44.9 so 45 percent of the Korean women older than 15 years believe that women are responsible for the household chores. This percentage is higher in Indian women and women that have not completed primary education. Furthermore, in a national survey published in 2011, so that's where you're looking at now, 7 percent of married women considered that not obeying their partner or husband will be a viable reason for a man to hit his partner. In addition, 11 percent believes that not taking good care of the children is another possible reason that could justify a man hitting a woman. One example of the role of violence in regulating personal relations appears in my research. I research indigenous women experience in reporting violence within the indigenous communities and in the state justice system in Ecuador. One common question asked within the community in cases of intimate partner violence was have you been good, meaning a good wife, or have you been neglecting your household, your husband, or your children? The question appears before, during, and after any formal procedure to investigate judge or punish violence. The question presents two clear ideas. Violence is something that can happen as a punishment for bad behavior and good behavior could contribute to avoid violence. In this scenario, violence is not the problem. The issue is the unfulfillment of gender expectations. If violence is always a lumen possibility, the primary tool to avoid it is to act in ways that comply with social expectations. In that case, when violence is not provoked, an act of violence would be considered abusive or detrimental to the community. So, my second point is violence enforced norms of sex and sexuality. Following the pattern I established in the previous section, I will reference another popular phrase in Ecuador. In a literal translation, the expression will sound like tie up your cow or put your cow in a safe place as my wool is running free. In that sense, anything that could happen to the cow, meaning a woman, is her fault, an order fault of the family because they didn't take the precautions to make them safe. As explained by Rita Segato, for many, instead of a crime, rape constitutes a punishment and the rapist, instead of a criminal, often perceives himself as a moralizer or an avenger of morality. In that sense, sexual violence is socialized, not necessarily as a crime, but as a teachable moment about the wrongful behavior that would be conducive to the punishment of sexual violence. Also, from that perspective, a victim of sexual violence is not just a body being punished by a theatrical prop used to enforce the value of purity and decency. According to Ecuadorian national statistics, 53, 57.3% of women think that women must behave and dress modestly not to provoke men. The statistics are quite high in different ethnic groups and different levels of education. National statistics also state that 15% of Ecuadorian women believe that women most have intercourse with their husbands and partners when their partners want. Sexual violence is not a theme that appears directly in my research, not because it was not present in the community I visited, but because there was little reference to it. Although one of the few examples was the case of a rape of a young girl by two brothers. The man who told me the story makes sure to mention the girl's parents allow her to stay for long times in the pastures and she used to hang around the voice too much in a way that could be misinterpreted as romantic interest. Again, sexual violence was explained as triggered by a girl's bad behavior. Additionally, the bad behavior did not only point to the victim, but also to the victim's keepers or protectors, meaning the family. They also failed in protecting their women.  Similar to the previous sections, violence fulfills a purpose. Violence offers a teachable moment. My final example talks about the governance over some bodies. My final example of violence as a medium to obtain desirable outcomes is much more explicit as it involves an actual monetary transaction. In Ecuador since 2013, the state has discovered 268 centros de homosexualización. That is centers to cure homosexuality. These organizations, some were acting with the permission of local authorities, used rape, physical attacks and verbal abuse among their methods. In 2016, the disappearance of a 15-year-old boy made visible the regular operation of these organizations. The adolescent was institutionalized by his mother because he was having bad behaviors in reference to his sexuality. The adolescent mother paid for a clinic that would change for the voice but behavior. There were other reported cases. Paola Cirit was institutionalized in one of these centers for two years and she was raped almost daily. Paola Concha survived 18 months in another center where she was handcuffed to a pipe as part of her treatment. In these particular cases, violence is an explicit part of a transaction. It is part of a service. It contributes to imposing rules over unruling and deviant bodies. In Ecuador, the depenalization, so this is not a criminal activity of homosexuality, was established in 1997 by a sentence of the constitutional court. While the law was changed and continued to change in expanding the rights of the members of the LGBTQI community, social norms still condemn homosexuality as adivian behavior.  As questions, all expressions of structural violence, understanding the productive terms of violence, being physical, psychological, structural, or symbolic, allows a working system to be revealed. Violence applied to some bodies under certain circumstances with particular goals works benefiting individuals and institutions that exist to perpetuate that violence. The heteronormative and patriarchal family members need to retain their power. The state institutions need to retain their moral legitimacy and the capitalist and colonial system of production need to extract free labor and their value in free labor. These three examples, oops, yes, these three examples aims to explain that assistant mediated bad violence works and is not exceptional. It is entrenching normality. It establishes modes of obedience that perpetuate the power dynamics of one group of individuals over another. As I have presented here, these practices of violence might not be perceived and interpreted as crimes, but as practices that teach, guide, restore, and improve. To talk about productive violence also allow us to think about a working system that is constantly innovating. As part of a functioning system, the use of violence and what we understand as productive violence is constantly changing. For example, in the 1930s, in Ecuador, a man could kill, harm, or hit his wife is he found her cheating. That is not an option anymore. However, the creation of new technologies has allowed the possibility of punishing unfaithful women in different ways, such as revenge porn. Time has changed how violence is inflicted by its role in punishing undesirable behavior is still present. To think about productive violence also aims to recognize that if human rights, women rights, LGBTQI rights, and feminist agendas are pushing forward to demand equality, participation, visibility, and autonomy, the patriarchal system is pushing back. For that perspective, Gago presents a relevant reflection. She explains that contemporary societies are experiencing a desestabilization of the modes of governance in the monogamous heteronormative family. In part, because now women are more prone to express a greater desire for autonomy, and the male provider figure is appreciating. In that light, the evaluated masculinities find themselves in a desperate and violent search to legitimize themselves. But this desperate search for legitimization goes beyond the evaluated masculinities or wounded expressions of the patriarchal state. Old individuals indirectly benefiting from working structures of domination participate in the innovation of a system that legitimizes violence. Finally, the concept of productive violence allows us to explore how the threshold of socially and legally accepted gender-based violence are established.  I refer to unproductive violence as something that is considered illegitimate, negatively sanctioned, and that is considered harmful to the community and a threat to the individual because it provides undesirable outcomes. The threshold of tolerance towards violence against women and particularly intimate partner violence is set by the tension between these two categories. That which is unproductive is not accepted while that which is productive is. As this threshold is socially constructed, it is dynamic and subject to change over time. Going back to the previous examples, unproductive violence is a violence perpetuated to wood women, to decent women, to modest and pure women that were not asking for it. Thank you. I think I can stop my presentation there. Finally, let's horrible slide there. Great, thank you so much. Elka, are you able to jump in with any sort of reflections? Yes, yes, yes, definitely. Thank you so much, Amanda, for having us both. Thank you, Andrea, for your wonderful presentation and the images really pulls out the meaning as well. Just a couple of comments specifically on what you presented today. So I think that the idea of productive violence is really useful because of your starting question. People ask about why do men hit women? Wow, it seems so illogical considering that often about the women they're supposedly love. So what do we do with that contrast? We tend to perceive violence as something that destroys, that is destructive, that it hurts, it harms, it breaks, it's something destructive. And the numbers that you mentioned at the start of your talk also indicates that actually it has economic harm as well at a national level. So it's useful to ask, but what does it give those who are beat and what kind of structures, why are these structures so persistent?  Well, it produces dominance, subordination produces a hierarchy between men and women, not only between men and women, hence it produces sexual boundaries, heteronormativity, that is related to the power of heterosexual men. No, you counter anything that is not heteronormative and very importantly that this domination, this patriarchal domination creates labor, no, it's free labor in the kitchen, as you so very clearly indicated. So in that sense, violence is indeed, it produces something. But then also then again that question about the intimacy of these forms of violence that you refer to, particularly intimate partner violence, domestic violence, family violence, which suggests that this is a disciplining violence, no, it is a sort of, it's legitimate because it disciplines people who are, who behave outside the normative framework of a community, basically. So this disciplining is not only directed at women who transgress, who don't behave according to those normative patriarchal frameworks, but very often also to children and particularly, of course, to children in other lessons because that's when the sexual transgression becomes an issue. So there is this, violence as a disciplining tool that produces, maintains, perpetuates these hierarchies, no. So I think that this sort of violence as disciplining would sort of make that link between productive violence, what does it produce, and the intimacy of that violence, i.e. it's so very often within the home. No, it's not a state that disciplines or there's violence towards those perceived as others, or a judicial violence or a carceral violence, no, it's intimate partners, no. So that's one point that I wanted to make about the productivity of violence. Now, if we take that point around disciplining a step further, then I think something that came out less from your presentation, but that I know of course of your research, and it's there in your presentation as well, is that you've looked in your, your main data of your research looks at indigenous communities, no. And then there's one of the last slides that you showed recalls the lashes, no, as a lash as a as a disciplining tool, literally. Now that has all kinds of colonial connotations, of course, no. So there's this question of what kind of tools of discipline, it also goes back to discipline. So the lash is being used to discipline men and women who are in an inferior position. This is a colonial practice towards peons, towards slaves and workers, laborers who are perceived as indigenous in a colonial society, or as a subordinate colonial society. And a lot of these practices have a sort of post colonial refurbration in indigenous communities. And so not not only in a national level where the president is waving his his belt in order to make a point about his heart stands towards corruption, but also within indigenous communities, the lash has become this very symbol of community discipline, and even of domestic discipline knows pretty normal in in in many communities until very recently, and perhaps even today, that the lash is a completely acceptable way of disciplining children, no. And then even also in certain contexts to discipline women as well, no. And that then brings me to another point that that is sort of in your presentation, slightly perhaps suggested is sort of the difference between what might be formal productive violence within frameworks of justice, or within frameworks that that are very clearly sort of carried by a majority of a particular population as legitimate, hence community justice via all kinds of procedures, violence that is perpetrators as part of such processes in schools against children with a lash and so on, and then slightly more informal forms forms of discipline, such as domestic violence, which which carries this ambiguous level of to what extent are certain forms legitimate or illegitimate and sexual violence is a very clear example of this ambiguity, I think, because there is this there's always this question. So is it about women's behavior or girls behavior? Did she watch she to liberal in her behavior? What was she wearing? No, or is it actually in that as a question? Does it all also count who the perpetrator of that violence is? I is there difference between a member of a family who disciplines women and girls, even in a sexual manner, because that's that sort of violence is often also used as a form of disciplining, or if it's someone external to that intimate set of relationships, and hence it cannot be seen anymore as a legitimate form of disciplining. This is something that I've been thinking about myself know in the difference between women talking about the husband who who is violent towards them and and sometimes very violent, I would really physical harm and a police officer or a soldier who is violent. And that those forms of violence are interpreted differently because they have different levels of legitimacy. That was my thinking. But then again, if you look at how husbands respond to violence from external or from others, then still often women are being seen as culpable. No, you see that in the courts all over not only in Ecuador or in Peru, but also in the UK. No, and then it's still about what was she wearing. No, so these sort of these these ambiguous let you to me let you to machinations or violence. And when it is destructed seen as the unproductive or productive, those are the terms that you're using is is also interesting to sort of see where the line lies between these two. And lastly, I guess that sort of related to all this between between this question of on one had the intimacy of violence and the productivity of violence and the legitimacy of disciplining violence is then, you know, refers back to an old feminist claim is that women within the patriarchy women and children are seen as property of men. No, and that is something that that that's I haven't heard really in your in your research and your presentation, but that might merit a little bit more thinking to what extent, both informally, i.e. on the normative level, and formally, i.e. in law, are women and children still seen as the property of men. And that perhaps the work of Veronica Gago is also interesting in this sense, I think, who you also cited extensively, because she makes that link between embodiment, women's bodies, land, and exploitation. No, so so how how you how men appropriates or particular sectors appropriate women's bodies and land with it with a very similar patterns of exploitation and productive violence, no, but productive for whom. I'll leave that that. Thank you very much, Andrea. Thank you for those comments. Those are really great to think about. How shall we proceed like I would really like to make comments or the comments because they're they're quite good. Yeah, let's let's have a conversation here because there's so far no one's put anything in the question box. So yeah, let's just have a broader conversation here. So please, Andrea, the floor is yours. Oh, perfect. I have a problem with with the idea of intimacy as something that happens. And this is one of the things that I have been really questioning about this, because all the examples look very intimate, like, because that's also the scope of my research. So the connection between intimate partner violence within the household or the violence of a parent deciding to discipline their children through these centers for curing homosexuality. And it all feels intimate, feels like disciplining a body and another body in a very close context in the context of the home. But I was thinking about the home as the most as the smallest productive unit. So that's the unit that I research, but that unit is part of an of a bigger productive system, like it's just the most the smallest part of a productive system. And one of the things that that's really why I didn't want to use particularly the example of indigenous communities, because then it feels even a small even it feels like the family unit within a particular ethnic group. However, this is intertwined with different levels of violence or how violence is perceived in different groups in society. So when you were referring to, and I really like the idea of formal and informal productive violence, so what it formalized through things as law and what it appears a little bit more informal, which is the family. But I won't say just the family, but society as the broader society. Because that's also interesting between what is a state in law and what is government rhetoric. So there is also the difference between the state at something that has laws and regulations and constitutions and so on, and the government and the rhetoric generated around those legal implements. And I think that those tricker down to the smallest unit that I'm calling the family. So it also goes back to the idea of the intimate is international and the intimate is public. Because it's not contained within the boundaries of the family. It talks about the conditions of the communities and the bigger society and definitely the rhetorics of government. And we can see that in the way government in Peru or in Ecuador have a very conservative rhetoric that resonates with a particular set of voters, if we're thinking about how people vote in relation to these topics. And I think that becomes very, very visible now in the way, because abortion is a big point in the agenda in Latin America. So those discourses become very, very obvious. And the connection between the government and their discourses and the family and how it feels within the family, it also becomes a little bit more visible. So yeah, I don't know. The intimacy and the boundaries of the family, that's something that I want to challenge. I think that's the big point there. Because I like that. I agree with you that the boundaries of the family should be challenged because the private is public and the other way around. But so with intimacy, I tend to think about how certain beatings hurt more than others. So if you're very close to someone, a lot of women in abusive relationships say that actually the words humiliation hurts more than the actual beatings. And why is that? Because that is about your sense of self, your subjectivity that is being harmed, your confidence, your freedom, your freedom in a very, not in an abstract way, not in a structural way, but in a very individual way. Can you go and visit the neighbor freely, yes or no, without being beaten? And that's what I mean by intimacy. That is very intimate.  That's a different experience because of the level of intimacy. So that's what I mean by intimacy. At the same time, I completely agree with you. And that's why I think it's so difficult sometimes to understand violence against women because of that intimacy, no? But I completely agree with you that the boundary between the personal and the political is absolutely not that clear at all. Absolutely. I wonder, so you make a really, really good question there, like how certain beatings hurt more than others. And that's, we can talk about that in the framework of embodied experience and how this is perceived by the individual. But I also wonder why the type of concierge beating was something more like the limiting of rights within a society. Why that doesn't hurt as much? So why, I mean, yeah, it's complicated because it's a different type of violence. It's not a violence that is perpetuated over the body, but it's perpetuated over the self. So every time that rights, women's rights of children rights or LGBTQ community rights are getting narrower, it is completely an infliction of violence upon those bodies. However, somehow that that type of violence hurt less to the individual and to the society. And I, so there is an expression in various, I don't know how to say that in English, but it's like just an echocayo. So there is so much, you have such a hard skin. There is so much damage done over the autonomy and the sales and the idea of representation within a society of certain groups that you are not expecting anything from the state. So when things are taken away, like freedoms and rights are taken away, somehow that doesn't hurt. And that for me is extremely problematic because if you are not feeling the hurt, you don't want to burn it all. You don't feel like going out to the streets and doing something makes any sense. So that's also my my problem with expressing the idea of intimacy and just consider intimacy as the fuel to think about why is this wrong. It's also wrong when we are not feeling something because there is a reason why we are not feeling. We are so used to that certain type of violence that there is not triggering anything else. And that is problematic. I think in countries that have a colonial experience and have experience of violence in the broader context of society, violence becomes something that it's not hurting anymore. And that numbness is a problem. Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Will you also explain actually in your explanation now what comes out very nicely, I think, is the idea that a lot of restrictions on rights actually does affect individual subjectivity, individual sense of self. And that could be defined as an intimacy. That's not how I meant it previously, but you're right, of course. I think that that's a good interpretation as well of the intimate understanding of the self of your own subjectivity. And if those rights are being constantly infringed by particular laws or particular policies or or violences and structures, then that is a very intimate form of violence. Absolutely. Yeah. I do want to jump in there quickly when we're talking about intimacy, because I also is there a risk of conceptually collapsing these different forms of violence, like through the legal system and infringement on political rights, mobility for an, you know, the sexual-based violence that's done on the body. This is not a fully formed thought, but I am a bit troubled by because there is something very, I think, yeah, I'm not sure. I wonder what you feel you can get conceptually by lumping intimacy in that regard with the state intimacy with the actual, you know, the physical material violence, sexual violence that's done on someone's body. Oh, that's that's an interesting thing. I don't want to lump them together, like the collapsing of the two, the embodied experience all the way that the half is on value and the understanding and normalization of certain things. It has another type of explanation. However, what I and that's why it's so difficult to talk about violence. And I find it extremely difficult. It's because they are intertwined. They talk to each other, like they and you can see that that's also interesting in how narrative work, because when you talk to someone that has been abused by their husband, there is also the connection with the state and the normalization of abuse when they are not going to talk to the police. And that experience of, but why am why am I going to go there if they are not going to do anything if they are not going to believe me. And then he you and that is also a connection with political discourse that in a court we have a very, very conservative government at the moment that have talked a lot about women's roles in abuse. So how they provoke abuse for themselves in political discourse. It also again becomes something that it's normalized that it's interiorized that it becomes incredibly personal. But again, I don't think this collapse, I think they are intertwined and they talk very closely and they can be definitely seen in different stages of how women deal with violence, because also women deal with violence in different times. So it's not the same in the moment you are receiving a kick a blow with Mac, or the moment that you process that as trauma, or the moment you you take that outside of your bedroom and talk to a friend, or the moment you want to go to the state and use any of the institutions of the state to to mention this. Or when you think about this in relation to the public discourse of the government. So all these things have a different experience and definitely have a different way of being analyzed and a different impact on women and their body. However, I see them as all intertwined and all collapsing back in the horrible experience of a woman. Maybe they collapse in the idea of they are awful and they make the experience. Yeah, they go back to the idea of creating subordination and inferiority in women. I agree with you, Andrea. I also think that they're very much interlinked and that the use, or I find it useful to link them explicitly, because they link in their very often in their ideological goal and increasingly in contemporary Latin America and other parts of the world. This actually is becoming a political idea and a political movement where patriarchy and patriarchal violence is very much linked to a particular politics that basically is very explicitly pro inequality and that violence is a legitimate means to enforce that inequality. See Brazil and other particular right wing governments and movements in Latin America particularly, no. So because of that link and because of that explicit sort of legitimizing certain forms of violence in order to dominate over certain groups, that is the use of seeing them in the same picture, but for different goals, if you look at it from a judicial perspective, you have to, you know, then there's a whole range of different interpretations of different forms of violence and likewise in terms of institutional violence and so on, but linked, yes. I want to say again, thank you so much. It feels wonderful to have another of these conversations and we haven't had this type of conversations in a long, long time because of COVID and because, yeah. It feels amazing. Thank you for the time. Andrea, do you have paper on this as well too? I'm sorry? Do you have a paper? Is there an actual paper on this or was this a presentation without a paper? This was a presentation without a paper and that's why I really, that's the reason I say yes to do the new voices because it really forced me to put pen to paper. So and the idea was okay, let's bring this out of my PhD thesis and transform it in something that I can publish. So this is my first, my first step towards the proper blown up paper. Can I, Luis wrote a question in the Q&A section of this Zoom meeting, so I thought it might be, it's actually, it's a good point, Luis. So you're asking the term productive is, it has a positive connotation. Is that not a risk in how you label violence, the positive overtone? So I'm curious what you think, Andrea. Oh, I really love that question because it means, so I have had this conversation about productive violence is a topic that I have discussed with Yelke previously and that I have discussed with my feminist research group a lot and I have to defend the use of productive quite a lot because it is provocative. Productivity is something that is very much considered in positive terms. However, one of the points that it needs to be clear is that I think also productivity is, should not be considered always positive because if we are thinking in broader terms, every type of exploitation is productive and we can see now in that my change and everything right, everything we are considering productive is effective, but the bottom line of what are we producing and who is benefiting this is definitely worth asking and that the idea of productivity allow us to see, to be critical to a system, to be and also to pinpoint where who is gaining within the system, but it's definitely something that I need to make clear. So the idea of productivity needs to be challenged not always positive and almost always as extractive. You know, I didn't even question that because I guess I must be so versed in Foucault that I just assumed that's what you're talking about Foucaultian politics, what politics is this doing as opposed to yeah, as a positive connotation. So yeah, that's a good question for me to reflect too. I guess then that matters the disciplinary background that you're coming from too, right? Yeah, I do wonder too in that terms and this might just be a concept like have you also thought about feminist work of using reproductive as well?  I haven't thought about that. So I was very much focused in the idea of productivity and yeah, I was not thinking about the reproduction or reproduction as productive to the productive system. So the repetition of behaviors and social norms and the creation of a pattern, it means to be productive. I think it's a fabulous question, Amanda. I haven't thought about it either, but I think it's a fabulous question and particularly if you think as a lot of domestic violence is seen or has its roots in, which is not the same of course, but it definitely has its roots in kind of disciplinary regimes that are seen as completely legitimate and that we see or saw or still see in schools as well as in homes, that is actually part of reproductive labor. And a lot of women, we don't really talk about this too much perhaps, but there's a lot of mothers beat their children as part of this disciplining regime of part of their reproductive caring work. And that if we wanted to know that does feed in to practices of domestic violence as a normalization of using violence as a form of disciplining and communication. So I think that's a great question, Amanda, and something to think about a little bit further violence as reproductive as well as productive. Yeah, and that's interesting too, just Yelka hearing you say that is that it also, I mean, I wonder if it has potential to challenge how we think about care work too, right? That happens if this is part of, you know, in feminist political economy ways, reproducing the next workforce or labor force that's in terribly gendered as well too, is this some of, you know, violence that goes into the care work, which seems counterintuitive as well, right, that care is supposed to be nurturing the wall. So so is the family, we imagine it to be a caring space as well. And that that could help you to think about think about what intimacy or the act of intimate violence looks like in these different spaces, right, when we link it to, yeah, when we link it to feminist political economy of reproducing new workforces with with the idea of care and that goes along with that as well too. Sorry, I mean, you might not choose to do that at all, but I think that's that that would be an interesting line of inquiry as well. No, it's great. And also you just mentioned something that I found very valuable, the idea of how we imagine, so that how we imagine family, we imagine things working how and that's something that we share in different societies, the family as nurturing, but also within the family, this idea of producing and reproducing normative forms of obedience are there, like it's almost like what you are imagining and where it's happening. And that it's interesting to explore, yes. Yeah, great. I can't wait to see this like materialized into a fantastic paper. So you'll have to come back and update us on your brilliant work. Sure. Fingers crossed.


So this will be a talk on LibratVac. LibratVac is for supporting gaming mice like what I have here. It's the gaming mice today are quite advanced actually, where you can push settings directly onto the device. It has onboard memory where you can configure like the LEDs, the colors, the patterns. You can set different mappings, you can put macros on there, and then once you take the mice to another computer, you still have the same settings on it. Gamers typically have also where you have different profiles on the mice so that you can quickly switch between specific sensitivities for different parts of the game. So that's the profiles, and then there's the resolution and there it is. So the problem with these gaming mice is that the software to configure them is mostly only released for Windows. So we don't have much official support, and every vendor has their own protocol that they talk to the mice with, and typically also different protocol versions depending on which device they use. So the RatVac was created by Peter Hüttere and Benjamin Tisouan. It meant to unify the support for all of these mice because there were a lot of projects scattered around, delivering support only for certain models and brands. So to create one unified interface, to look at all the mice and say, okay, what's the common features that we want to support? Not everything is supported on all models. Then to deliver that in a way that you can integrate nicely into a desktop environment. So there's already been a few talks on Lib RatVac, one at XTC, and one in Aquatic that ended with a note saying we need help with reverse engineering all the mice. So that's going to be the focus of this talk on how to do that so that people can hopefully help. So the basic architecture that's used for in Lib RatVac is that you have user interfaces that the user will use. It could be Piper, which is this one. The user interface talks to the RatVac Demon, which is running, you communicate with the debus. It uses Lib RatVac to have the overall functionality. Then for each mouse or brand of mice, you have different drive-up backends, and these are the ones we will be implementing or we need to implement. The first thing that Lib RatVac will do is that when you start it up, it will start by discovering which of the connected devices can it operate with. It will do this first by matching the vendor and product ID on the USB, and then it will probe the device, try to just make sure that everything is in complete order, that it has this expected features. Then it will internally say, okay, which capabilities does this mouse have? Does it have LEDs? Can I switch profiles? Can I map buttons? Things like that. Then it loads the full onboard configuration that's stored on the mouse, if possible. Then the user will, through the interface, the graphical interface will also some of the state that Lib RatVac now has loaded into its own memory, and when you're done, you say you want to push it to the device, and then it writes everything to the device for you. So you have this middle thing in Lib RatVac where you store a buffer of the changes. Coming back to how we do the matching, the first step you'll do if you want to support on your mouse, is to run LSUSB or similar to get the vendor and product IDs. You put that into the device match, you give it a name, it will just be for showing in the UI, and then you specify which driver you want to use. In this example I took here, it's a SteelSeries driver, and you also have an SVG which will be like a view of the mouse that we'll be looking into a bit later, and you can also put extended information in there if you cannot query it on the device itself. So the basic data structure within Lib RatVac is that you have a device, on the device you have multiple profiles, at least one, in that you can have different resolutions which are that you can switch between where you say one has a DPI of 800 and the other one 2,000 or whatever you need, and you have your button mappings and your LED settings. The capabilities that you will want to put on the mouse are defined within Lib RatVac with some definitions, you can see there are many of them, but these are the things that you will, kind of when you buy the mouse or you have it, you can see from the device pretty much, okay, does it have LEDs? Can I switch between the profiles and things like that? So these are the things that you would start by adding onto the device, and so that's what you could peer out of just by looking at the mouse. Then you will need to start reverse engineering the protocol that it talks to the device with. So since we only have the vendor software for Windows, we will need to install that in a virtual machine. You will install their configuration, software, then redirect the device that you plugged in to the virtual machine and then use Wireshark to listen on the packets. And it's a good idea to set Wireshark to decode things as USB, a hit. So then you basically just start by opening the configuration software, setting something like changing the button mapping, changing it back again perhaps, and then looking into the packets to try and figure out what every byte in there means. So that's the next step to then have a good overview of what all the things that they communicate with what they mean. It's worth noting that some of the data will sometimes change, sometimes they put checksums in there so that you, to verify that it's not random data that they're getting, so look out for that and also consider the Indianess that typically big Indian. So it's a quick demo. For the VM, I prefer to use GNOME boxes. It has a feature where, oops, that means that, nope, sorry, here we go. Normally boxes will not allow you to redirect the mouse that you have connected because then you will not be able to control it outside anymore, but in this case we want. So specify that and it will allow you to do it. Start that up, yeah. Live demos are always a good idea. Okay, in the meantime we'll try to, oh, no, no, no, no. Okay, so maybe this will not work. Okay, that's unfortunate. Okay, so I would have started Wireshark as well, but just to say here, I know now, I didn't know from running LS USB that this is on the USB bus three for my computer, so I could go in here. Hopefully the boxes is coming up behind. So go for that, oops, and I can't see the top, okay? So I can't click on the toolbar in the top where I would start the capture, but okay, sorry about that, yeah. But you would go into that loop, poking at it all the time and looking, okay, I was going to change the LED colors on this one to show, okay, now I changed it from blue. We can see which parts of the message it sends that be set to this value that we know. So I suppose this is not going to be working. Okay. Okay, so, well, once you have done that, then now you know which messages you will want to send. You know the length of the stream that you'll send or the packet and where each individual parts go. So you want to create a new driver and within the source folder, there are already multiple drivers in there. So you just maybe just copy one of them. Then you want to register it. There's just a structure you put them into to have the bread bag consider that one. And then you put in the device file that we saw earlier. So the driver that you will write will have three function pointers where you need to give it an implementation. One for the probing. This is what the bread bag will call into you when it checks to see if the device that you were matched on is actually correct. You can make some basic checks for it by just either sending it a message checking if it has the correct report descriptors. And then you pull the full configuration into the structures. Then there's the commit. Oh, yeah. Sorry.  Each of the parts in the data structure you typically have a dirty field. They say, okay, did the user actually change this? Can we skip sending this specific packet? The one for set active profile, some mice will allow you to change the profile from from the client. So if you're working with Piper, if you change the profile in the dropdown, then it can move it as well. And the remove function is just to free any new memory you allocated. Libradback has some helper functions that are worth taking into consideration, especially for the NGNS, if you have some fields will be 16 bit. And then you'll want to use the helper functions to do the conversions for you. There's also tables for the hit keys so that you don't have to do all that lookups yourself. So take a look out for those if you're going to write one. So there is also this nice Piper UI that Jente Hitzkes, if I managed to pronounce it correctly, he worked on it as part of the sum of code this summer, turned out to be a really nice interface I think. It communicates with Libradback demon and you use it, it's very general in it and then you supply it with SVG and then it knows how to set up the interface based on the SVG. The SVGs are supplied by Libradback so any client that you write will be able to use them. They supply a basic layout of them, how the mouse looks, where are the buttons, where are the LEDs? Then it has some leader lines going out to the side saying, okay, out here if it says button one then there's a line going in and you can place a button out there to configure it. Once you do a SVG, you want to use some light colors to fit into the theme and there are a full list of rules about how specifically the SVG should be. You must have three specific layers, one called the device and where you basically draw everything from the mouse and then you have two extra layers for buttons and LEDs where you have these leader lines going out to the sides. I'll show an example in a few seconds. The easiest way to do this with these is basically to just take a picture of the mouse from above, put it into the lowest layer of the SVG, put another one on top, make that semi-transparent and then start drawing on top of that so you get the right shapes. And then you name, where if you draw a button, then you name it button zero, that's the left click button and button two for right, et cetera. And also for the LEDs, then that is what Piper will use to figure out what to change. And yeah, you put a small square at the sides, like it's just a tiny seven by seven square, that's again the indicator of where to put the Piper's own buttons. And you also give it an extra information of whether Piper should place the button for configuration on the left or right side of it. So, another attempt at a demo and again I can't see what I'm doing. I'm trying to hit the menu so I can move it myself, but. I'm sorry? Maybe any of the neurodoodle? Yeah, that would be good. Thanks. Okay, so I'm just opening a mouse here, one that I drew recently and you can see those are the lead-aligns. Click on a button here, that's button zero, so you just basically give it those IDs. And then it will use that to set up the whole UI. So, I think if we should have any questions, it should be now, otherwise I would have gone to the demo of Piper as well. That would be nice for the living spirit community, like opening the port of Austin. Yeah, okay, so the question is if there is any vendors who are playing nice with the community, Logitech certainly are, and G-Skill as well. But otherwise you're mostly just getting ignored. So, that's also why I mean that there are so many things, so many devices out there. We need help to people who have access to the devices to go in and start doing the reverse engineering and the hope for this talk was to give some hints about how to get going and hopefully if you wanted to try out then give it a go and get in contact if you need help or for anything. The question is if there is a risk in doing it, if you risk breaking the device and yes, that's always a risk. I think I have seven or eight devices and I've put them through all kinds of things and then they haven't broken yet, but I mean, do this on your own risks certainly, yeah. So, the question is what about keyboards and they have similar configurations. That is true, but in trying to come up with an API that is somewhat consistent and decided to just go for mice, they have a pretty common set of features and so, but yeah, most of the protocol can actually be the same. So, how did I get involved in the project? I saw a blog post about it and I had a mouse and then I started poking at it and suddenly I bought a lot of mice. Basically just checking if there's any cheap used one for sale and then yeah, that's how support comes. If we're building a mouse or similar input device, how do we make your life easier? Okay, so the question is if you were building it, how you would make it easier? Yeah. Supply documentation of the protocol. Basically all we need, or end the device, to test on it. Is the time for more questions? One minute. One minute, okay. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And the question was if we could have help from people who just wanted to draw the images and certainly yes because that actually takes quite some time to get right. Okay, that's all the time it is. Thanks.


Daily Tech News Show is made possible by its listeners, thanks to all of you, especially our patrons. Remember, you can get an ad-free version of this show and more at Patreon.com slash DTNS. Coming up on the show, action cams heat up, cameras start sporting SSDs and will we soon see a new 35mm point and shoot. This is the photography news for the month of September 2022 in lovely Cleveland, Ohio. I'm Rich Trafalino. And from North of the Wall, I'm Anthony Lemos. You know, during the month, photography news sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. So once a month, we shine the spotlight on it. We crank it up. We stop it down. We get everything in focus. We have a lot of depth of field into the news. So let's start with a bit of photo news you might have missed. Viltrox is a Chinese lens maker that's made a name for itself, providing affordable autofocus lenses with good performance. It's also pretty good at reverse engineering lens mounts, providing autofocus lenses for Fuji's X mount years before it opened up to third parties. Over the past few months, people noticed their recent lenses for Canon's RF mount were no longer available from retailers. In an age of constant supply chain constraints, it wasn't clear why they weren't available. And now we have a statement from Canon Germany. It said, Canon believes that these products infringe that their patent and design rights and has therefore requested the company to stop all activities that infringe Canon's intellectual property rights. In other words, they just, they went, they went all for themselves. Either there was, there was a lawsuit on the table or Viltrox didn't want to do a lawsuit. But yeah, the old legal action taken away your, it doesn't seem great for third party RF lenses at this point. Right. All right, next up, Topaz Labs offers some well-regarded and enhancement photo editing tools, things like Denoise AI, Sharpen AI and Gigapixel AI. Gigapixel particularly always impresses me. Now the company will integrate these three apps under a new Topaz photo AI app. This will include a new autopilot feature, which will automatically suggest adjustments across all three modules. Topaz photo AI will also include plugins for Adobe Lightroom Classic, Adobe Photoshop and Capture One. It's available now for $199. It's actually, it's actually pretty compelling. Fuji announced the X-H2 mirrorless camera. It uses the same body as the already released X-H2S, but swaps the cameras stacked 26 megapixel sensor with a 40 megapixel X-Trans sensor. It can shoot video at up to 8K at 30 frames per second offers 160 megapixel pixel shift mode. It's available now for $2,000 and pixel shift always just great. The name or the tech? The name. Okay. You're on, you're on board with like high resolution photo stacking. Okay. I just want to be clear. All right. Well, it was a big month for APS-C camera releases. Sony announced the FX30 cinema camera. They actually did it like yesterday, so that's kind of cool. It's almost identical to the existing FX3, but uses a 26 megapixel APS-C sensor versus full frame on the FX3. It can shoot oversampled 4K at up to 60 frames per second and cropped 120p video, records internally at 10 bit 422 video and includes IBIS as well as an active cooling fan. It ships in October for $1,799. Pretty interesting price point. Anytime video has active cooling, I just think where's the, where's the microphone? Only 10 Zeiss planter 50 millimeter f.0.7 lenses were ever produced. That's a 50 millimeter f.0.7. Six of them were made for NASA. Three of the remaining units were acquired by Stanley Kubrick and modified to be used as cinema lenses for the film Barry Linden. Used in a scene lit by only two candles. Wide open, it lets in two stops more light than f.1.4 lens. Now the lens is returned to Zeiss to go and display at its museum of optics lent by the firm's executive producer, Jan Harlin. Oh, Jan given up. Was he shooting with it? Like he was just sitting there with it on a shelf, right? I mean, I guess you wouldn't do anything with it because you'd be terrified of breaking it. But it's one of those things where you're always wondering what executive producers actually do. And now, you know, they steal lenses from set. Hey, to be like, the article is definitely worth a read because it goes into like how like he had to like call up Zeiss and convince them to make this with working with like a film gate and stuff like that. So it was super interesting and amazing optic. And keep in mind, 10 minus six minus three is still one. So where's the other one at? I think NASA's not telling us something. That seems to be the likelihood. Yeah, probably give it to the aliens. They need to see. That's what's on the James Webb telescope, actually. They just sent it up there. All right. Well, it's been a big month for action cams. DJ, I'm announced the Osmo action three. This ditches the module design of its predecessor, the Osmo action two. It could shoot up to 4k 120 frames per second video with its rock steady 3.0 stabilization on it natively supports vertical video because that's what the kids like. And is waterproof up to 52 feet. I think the original one was about 33 feet or somewhere around there. It's available for pre order now for $329, but not to be outdone. Amos, I don't know why. So when do you read it? So why don't you take over? Do you want to redo that? Well, Rich, GoPro announced the hero 11 black and 11 black mini cameras. They can record up to 5.3 k video in an open gate eight to seven aspect ratio. This enables the mode where it can maintain level video regardless of how the camera is rotated. Oh, what the kids want? The mini lacks the front and rear screens and has a non removal battery. The hero 11 black is available now for $500 with GoPro subscribers getting it for 400 and the mini retails for 400 available for subscribers for 300 shipping October 25th just in time for Halloween. It's for all of your Halloween vlogs and your snowboarding Halloween snowboarding all of your your action cam needs there. So you can put in your trick or treat bag is what it is. Exactly. You can do your time lapse of all your trick or treating and then you can get that six streets out. So I have thoughts on these action cameras and just action cameras in general the Osmo action, the GoPro's. These are kind of very specific use cases and I want to know where you sit on how well they're used because sometimes I am really impressed with the the the footage that people can get with these things and other times I'm like you just strapped a camera to your helmet and didn't do anything to actually show me what anything that I want. So where do you sit on it? I'm a fan of you know when it comes to increasingly either large sensor cameras or sophisticated computational stuff like the fact that you just have like a really solid platform that's like really purpose focused of we're going to provide like the basics are like we're going to provide amazing stabilization it's going to be like everything proof and you know it's just kind of an all in one where you'd have to worry like if it falls apart I mean like I don't want to lose $329 but I'd rather lose that than like a thousand dollars if my iPhone broke or something like that or if my mirrorless camera broke you know I'd be out a similar amount of money. I'm a big fan of I do agree like there there's almost become a parody of what action cam footage will look like especially you know the you know the the more adventurous kind of stuff but the fact that it is a a pocketable like everything proof camera is really tempting and I've actually kind of come to appreciate I have a original Osmo action the one I guess retroactively now and like the stabilization on that if until I've tried it the stabilization on those is remarkable I'm assuming both of these have significantly better even then but you know it's doing that thing where it has like the it's like a 14 millimeter lens or equivalent and then it crops in a little bit and does kind of active stabilization and it really is like you're floating on a cloud when that thing is on I was doing some stuff where I clipped on the back of like a little car that my kids were you know I was pushing my kids on and like running as fast as I could in my backyard and it's just like you know it's on a gimbal so I I'm I like the fact that DJI is basically going like we're not going to mess with the formula that GoPro has put out there we tried this modular thing didn't seem like people liked it so we're going back to this this more classic design GoPro I want to be more enthusiastic the whole subscription thing though it it it kind of rubs me the wrong way how aggressively they're they're pushing it which costs 50 bucks a year gives you access to like cloud uploads and storage and stuff like that so there is some utility but I just don't like you know my pricing being subscription driven for any kind of camera I guess you know cell phones we've been living with that for a while yeah yeah yeah anything that subsidizes the camera you know exactly um I will say that as skeptical as I am about how people use these I am also the drone operator that never gets anything good is just flying around taking pictures of stuff for good you know reasons so I understand that the the the fun in it not just the utility but I really do like that DJI and GoPro are both putting out these cameras that aren't trying to be cinema cameras they are purpose built in and they stay in their lane I wish GoPro wasn't so iterative you know I I do think what they're doing with the image sensor is really interesting and being like basically we're going to give you a square sensor and like it it kind of plays up it's uh it's bona fides right it's not to your point it's not saying like it'll shoot 10 bit like okay great you can grade your GoPro footage congratulations but like you know like the fact that they're like we're not soaking up every little bit of resolution it's not so much about that it's about we can get you a really cool 4k crop that will intelligently you know use some gyroscope stuff and and level that out so when you have it on your your snowboard helmet or whatever it'll look kind of I mean I guess cinematic might be the right word but it'll look you can get a very particular look with that that's going to be very hard to do in post with any right system which I think is cool yeah and they have their own their own special post processing software to it and everything else that helps you achieve all that as well um and yeah I I really I want to see them do more I what I really want to see is the display a target when I walk in and see the the GoPro display to be able to look at the three models they show and be able to differentiate between the three of them and and what their features are so anyway it's September and that means we've got new iPhones out this year there's an even bigger difference between the standard iPhone 14 and the iPhone 14 pro models historically the pro models have gotten upgraded cameras and codex and better displays but this year it also gets a new system on a chip new so see we're talking about photography news so let's focus on the cameras the 14 pros come with a new 48 megapixel main sensor that's 65 larger than the 12 megapixel sensor on the iPhone 13 pro in casual shooting you won't notice this with apple using what it calls quad pixel to pixel bin the images down to 12 megapixels the full 48 megapixels are available when shooting in pro raw in terms of focal lengths the main camera is an f 1.78 24 millimeter equivalent the ultra wide is an f 2.2 13 millimeter equivalent and the telephoto gets all the way out there to 77 millimeter equivalent at f 2.8 for video users you can shoot in cinematic mode at 4k at either 24 or 30 frames per second there's also a new action mode that shoots at 2.8 k at 60 frames per second the crop resolution is due to extra digital stabilization actually that's really nice from what i can tell models with 256 gigabytes of storage can also shoot in pro pro res 4k at 30 frames per second although base storage models are limited to 1080p i actually had to check on that because i thought that was a typo they don't come cheap the 14 pro starts at 999 and the 14 pro max at 1099 very similar to last year's models although if you're in europe it's been increased a little bit so rich in the uk against the diminishing pound right especially that yeah um what uh what do you what do you think about this uh this quad pixel pixel binning stabilization like what do you think about this approach to a larger sensor but using less of it at a time for most purposes i think the nokia pureview has won the long game when it came to smartphone camera technology because they had this way back in like what 2012 the 70808 pureview 808 that was a phone i always wanted um yeah this makes total sense because most users are going to be posting this to instagram you don't need the resolution what you need is something that has a really smart uh dsp and a lot of processing power that can say all right we're going to take out the noisy pixels we're going to take out the you know we're going to you know evaluate what are the best pixels and produce you know provide more information for this computational photography that's you know just increasingly the standard across all cell phone platforms particularly ios it seems like um what's what's interesting to me is the continued like hey we're really pushing like i think a lot of people when the pro iPhones came out that you kind of rolled their eyes it's like okay what's really pro about them the pro raw stuff i fooled around i have a 12 pro max and the raw stuff is nice um you don't get you can't really push shadows all that much and that kind of stuff but it's it's certainly more than you can in a jpeg but when it comes to continuing that you know being able to shoot pro res video that's pretty impressive i mean that that does give you more latitude than you can even get on a lot of uh mirrorless cameras at least up until a couple of years ago when they've really started pushing you know more 10-bit stuff and that kind of stuff obviously given the size of the sensor you're still you know it's it still has its limitations but like if you're going to call it a pro that's kind of a pro feature like that is like a production feature um that you're going to be able to use and i'm assuming the 1080p thing was because you would get at 128 you probably get like 10 minutes of recording before you're you're thinking i that that i i have some thoughts that we might see something in another story on here the one thing that interesting you know the sensor is now to a size now obviously we've seen sony ship with one inch sensors in phones uh as of late um but the crop factors on these are actually not as astronomical as they they once were for these tiny little things because i think it's a on the main sensor it's a 3.5 crop considering that micro four-thirds is a 2x crop when you're talking about uh you know lens equivalencies and that kind of stuff it's not like completely out of the ballpark of what we're already kind of used to dealing with and i imagine that's why they keep the uh the telephoto f2.8 uh one obviously they need to keep the size of the lens down but i think focusing actually becomes an issue it's one thing to focus an actual six millimeter lens that's what the main camera uses like six millimeter lens everything's in focus out of once you get out of a foot so you really don't need a particularly great autofocus system with that when you get to 77 so we're talking about what uh i don't know in the teens uh like high teens when it comes to what that crop's going to be 20 20 millimeter that's like a little bit more considerable yeah when you're thinking about what you actually need to focus so i imagine stopping it down makes it a little easier yeah and something else is uh of course all these numbers the the f stop equivalent and the the focal length equivalent all these are mathematical numbers they're not physical numbers the physical numbers are way different and the math is kind of insane but they they they make it to where like they do the math in a way that makes it relatable because nobody wants a nobody wants a 1.6 millimeter equivalent at f 33 or whatever the math comes out to um but i do like the fact that and and apple isn't i i love their marketing but i always distrust it just a little bit because i know they're gonna skew it in the best way possible because they have an entire division of people that just make everything positive the pixel binning it's not actually pixel binning it's pixel combining which i think the reviews that i've seen are all looking pretty good we're getting into the winter time though and that's usually when you start seeing the iphone reviews the three months later reviews and they find the problems with the shadows and the dark areas and things like that in iphones it's just been my experience that's usually when it comes out is right before christmas time so i'm interested to see how those three month reviews end up for the iphone 14 pro and pro max but yeah i i i do think that i i i do think their approach to how they're they're what they're doing with quad pixel based on my understanding of it i am not a uh i'm not a light scientist i just i just use cameras the way that that is set up i do think that should make at least for a less noisy image now whether it's going to go too soft as a result of that i think comes down to their computational stuff which they've again if this was first gen if this was like the first time they're you know touting their computational photography bona fides uh you know maybe i'd be a little more skeptical but we've had almost what five years now of uh you know night modes and you know deep fusion and that kind of stuff so this is certainly uh i i imagine this will acquit itself decently i'm not saying it's going to perform miracles but uh i'm not i'm maybe not a little less skeptical yeah and i'm i'm just going to say this in the simplest terms possible they rearrange their photo stack for their processing so it's it's being processed by different digital filters at different you know at different points in the photo chain the digital imaging chain um i don't know how much that is going to affect the image quality but it's good to at least see them trying to give me lip service that they're improving their process so for for sure uh well if you need a little more explanation on the big tech topics like wi-fi 6 5g and more you should check out our related show know a little more to know a little more about all that more at know a little more dot com all right rich tell us what's going on with the storage since that's such a contentious thing in the phone world at uh yes yes we're limiting we're limiting our pro res resolutions based on storage and we're seeing that in the larger camera area as well and i got to set this up because we saw a really weird camera come out not just in the apsc world you know we talked about the fx 30 and uh fuji's xh2 but we also saw new high-end big boy cameras the ones i will never afford hassleblad announced its third medium format mirrorless camera the x2d 100c catchy name guys as the name suggests it ups the ante on the previous cameras that topped out at a mere 50 megapixels with a new 102 megapixel sensor matching uh what fuji does with their gfx 100 series like you would expect with a giant big sensor hassleblad also promises is some giant big dynamic range at over 15 stops with a native iso between 100 and 12800 uses a new phase attack autofocus system that's supposed to be 66 faster the last one was contrast based uses five axis ibis and includes a big 3.6 inch flip up rear display which is objectively a very big display it starts at 8199 dollars and that's before you put a lens on there now at that price and with no video capabilities clearly this is an extremely niche product we probably wouldn't do much of a discussion about it except for one key spec which i have not mentioned yet the x2d 100c has a built-in 1 terabyte ssd in addition to a single cfx card slot so you could store over 4100 megapixel raw files without ever putting in a card that's what we like to call in the business cuckoo bananas right so one terabyte lot of storage for an iphone let alone a medium format camera seems to be leading though a bit of a trend anthony and i want to get your thoughts on this ssd is increasingly becoming common camera so we've seen companies speaking of cameras i'll never afford like a offering 64 gigabytes of storage on their new m 11 obviously a big way from one terabyte but a bit of a trend it's not just internal ssds though increasingly we're seeing the utility of offering direct ssd recording i remember when the sigma fp came out a few years ago that was one of its signature features have really stood out to me as being like oh that'd be a great way to do a ton of video now the panasonic gh6 is adding support for it in firmware previously ssds you could use it in something like an atomos ninja uh but you'd be really just recording the hdmi out signal you're not recording directly from the camera and even cameras without the functionality directly might get it from third parties we've seen leaked documents show the camera accessory maker tilta plans to release a half cage enclosure for sony cameras that includes a 512 m2 ssd that connects over the camera's cf express type a slot and have enough speeds for pretty much all of your recording modes like pro res and all the weird codecs that they support there so i don't know if i'm trusting a third party like hacked ssd to record any kind of high-end cinema stuff but the hassle blood thing really caught my eye and i think one terabyte might be the outlier here for an extremely expensive camera but do you think we're going to see this as a continuing trend i've also seen a couple other cameras there was a speaking of leica there's a there's a french company called pixie i think is px pix ii that also does internal storage under camera up to i think 256 gigabytes so is this a trend and why now when we've kind of it used to be you'd get like four gigs of storage or something like that in a point and shoot or maybe your high-end cannon power shot but it's been over a decade since that's been a thing this reminds me rich go back in time with me let me set the stage it's 2006 cannon is releasing their hf line of video cameras they offer a slot for an sd card but sd cards at the time are not big enough to record everything that they want to record so they offer a model with onboard storage the onboard storage can record all the modes of the camera in full fidelity all the way up to 1080p 60 frames a second whoa mind blown now the problem with those those hard drives of course was battery life whoo it that was that was the trade-off but we had reached a point in video cameras where the portable storage solutions couldn't keep up with what the cameras could do so that was the next option and it became a premium option you could the high-end models had an option for onboard storage and then we started getting faster flash storage and that option just completely disappeared just poof gone and i wonder as we come back to today if this is the same thing we're seeing now we have cameras that are being held back by our storage options and solutions the price of external storage in the form of sd cf express uh type a type b whatever card you want to use those are getting really really high for the big you know the the major storage solutions we want we can double the cards and have a pump and have you know the things pumping out to two different cards at a time but are we reaching a gate where we just can't we can't get any any more onto the card so now we're having to do something internal or is it that storage ssd's in particular are getting cheap enough that we can just slap it in there as a gimmick i think part of it i i think it's i think it's your the first one i think that's maybe more of the cause but i also think another part of the other the other shoe for this is that the i o situation from that internal storage is in a much better state now where you can connect over usb-c you can connect over thunderbolt three on some of the depending on the camera and you can get the high so you're not going to be oh i have a one terabyte storage drive but it's going over usb-2 right or or or something is incredibly slow where it's going to be this bottleneck into your workflow when you need to get that off of there part of the benefit of using an sd card is you can take that out pop it in you can get your media off of there one way the other maybe the transfer speed to the pc or your mac or whatever like that isn't isn't still the best but then you can at least have another card in there and you can you know keep moving on with your camera i do think the i o situation on that is a big part of it and the fact that cf express is basically to what sony is doing is basically just like a pc i express lane right your base it's basically an nvme drive that you're putting into your camera so i think technically also that there the architecture is there to very seamlessly whether you want to call it an ssd where they want to call it cf express uh it's much technically easier you don't have to write a like a specific storage controller or install a different storage controller if you wanted to offer this i don't know for the ssd out stuff like like because what sigma and and what the gh6 are doing is it's usbc to a drive so i don't know that's not using the cf express slot so i i don't know if that's going to become like standard considering every camera now is shipping with usbc it would be great if that was an option especially for hey i got a i'm going to record a uh you know a game or something like that or a sporting event where i'm going to know i'm going to be there for three four hours i'm going to have a ton of video it'd be nice to just be able to have a cage throw your drive on top of that your little samsung t3 drive or whatever and just fill that thing up the whole the whole night right yeah yeah and it would and if the option was internal as well you know completely based inside the camera like how especially for stills because that's typically what you and i both shoot or are stills you're not running around with film video cameras much these days um how how much faster can i get pictures and how much faster can i clear the buffer if i have onboard storage versus the cf express type b that my cameras are like well my r5 is using i don't know but i'd be willing to to look at that and see if that would be something that would help me especially shooting sports um you know if you got r3 out there and it's shooting 200 frames in a quarter of a second or whatever craziness that is and then it locks you out for nine seconds while it writes the buffer to the card you know what can we do with that like what can what could can and do with that if they had internal storage that didn't have the interface uh limitations of the cf express type b that excites me it makes me think this could be really good well and that does raise an interesting possibility right because then because we're we're getting to the point and now i'm going to get into a weird tech tangent here because uh intel for a long time they've discontinued it now but was pushing uh something called optane which is basically like uh what was it storage class memory right just like it was kind of in between the speeds of d ram which is insanely insanely fast and and is what your your um your camera primarily writes to that's the buffer of your camera is d ram and then your storage which is your ssd or your sd card or whatever like that if they could figure out a way to integrate an ssd into your camera that had something that was you know storage class memory grade and that hassle drive is doing like 3000 megabits per second i mean it's like ever megabytes per second it is super fast it is is top end so if you could have something like that you're absolutely right you could almost create like a swap file maybe kind of situation uh where you could uh you know it maybe not be as fast as the primary buffer but prevent that really long lockout uh that really sucks when you when you when you accidentally realize you're in high burst mode and you're totally filling up your buffer yeah we've all been there the other thing is i i this could actually make me want maybe one of those weird extended grips for a camera if you put like a ssd integrated into there you just slap that on there it's like oh it's not just batteries it's actually like hey i got a terabyte now i can i can tote that around that'd be cool especially if i could strap on mvme or m.2 on there and like you know yeah that that's that's wait wait for that weird tilt a cage i i want to know who the person is that's trusting like they're like here i got my my a7 s3 i have five thousand dollars worth of glass on this i'm using this for a high end cinema production and i'm gonna use i'm gonna trust tilt has got my back on this yeah yeah 3d print a cage for yourself at that point all right if yeah actually if uh if you're like rich and you're uh deep into the world of instant film film being the key word there you might be familiar with the mint camera they've been making new cameras for fuji films instax film for a while offering tlr that shoots instax mini and range finders for the wide and square films now the company announced it's working on a premium compact 35 millimeter film camera camera prototype which hopes it will be which it hopes will be ready in about six months they're hoping to keep it priced relatively lower than what premium compacts go for on the used market good luck on that for example contacts point and shoots can go for over two thousand dollars it's shared a few sample images and some of them show a resemblance to the classic rolay 35 camera but is too early to say much more and rich i know you have a quick thought on this one i do there have been a number of like crowd sourced attempts to do 35 millimeter like new 35 millimeter cameras and the problem is like the reason mince able to do instant cameras really well instant cameras are big the film is big so you don't need like quite as fine manufacturing for a lot of parts you can get away with a lot of bigger things makes it easier to manufacture the the miniaturization this like the whole industry that made 35 millimeter cameras possible basically doesn't exist anymore so it's not something you can just 3d print it's not you know you you have to invest a lot in some very very fine parts for this now mint has a history of doing this we can if you want to know who to blame for the rise of a super expensive context cameras thank you the kardashians they've made it a fashion accessory and also these cameras have tons of electronics so they break all the time like you're like two seconds away from those cameras breaking all that beautiful cameras beautiful lenses i have a roly 35 it's my second favorite camera of all time it's a beautiful like little timepiece german piece of engineering so if they can rip off roly please please rip them off make this beautiful little camera and you could probably charge high hundreds sub i think it has to be sub thousand for it to take off from the market but anywhere from six to eight hundred people would pay for it if it had a decent if it had a decent lens this is all to say it has a decent lens right you know all of these all these cameras i'm talking about the roly the context of the olive zeiss glass t-star glass i have no idea if they can talk to zeiss about making that probably not but if they get a good lens on there the price is right there's a there's definitely a market for it so i am excited for that there's a whole lot of e f glass out there really really good on the standards that you might be able to get away with there is a company called i think we've talked about on the show called umar lenses that basically takes old point and shoot cameras old basically rehouses lenses on like an industrial scale uh so hey talk to omar maybe you can get some cool vintage stuff you can throw in your weird roly ripoff camera mince get on it all right and of course we'd love to hear from you let us know what photo news stories we missed or tell us what you think of this new format feedback at daily tech news show dot com with this subject photo news monthly remember to catch daily tech news show it's live monday through friday at four p.m eastern twenty hundred utc find out more at daily tech news show dot com slash live we'll see you next month i hope you have enjoyed this program