The committee to protect journalists USA brought out a report for which I wrote the forward recently about two months ago It was out in August sometime in this country 27 journalists 27 have been murdered since 1992 And these journalists these 27 you can understand there were many more murder But these 27 it can be established that they were murdered because of what they wrote Okay, they were murdered because of what they wrote. That is an astonishing figure if you go by that kind of that stringent evidence Evidential process that they did 27 journalists now I analyze their data and I wrote the forward. Let me tell you some of the things Last year there were three in the last year you remember there were three murdered I'm not counting the rationalists and that's another problem all your three rationalists when writers and journalists Please understand. They were also being attacked. Dabholkar was attacked for what he was writing Pansare for what he wrote Okay, Calgurgy and academic who also wrote But the three professional journalists or journalists as we understand them who were murdered in the last year Here are some of answer 27 overall. Here are some interesting things for you All the three were Indian language if you could if you look at the 27 not one of them was working in an urban metro It also argues a different class background of the journalist. It is impossible to find in those 27 one Holy English speaking English writing journalist working and it is impossible to find anyone working in corporate media English Publications India today lost a person who was Hindi There is a big class difference in composition class social background difference between journalists working in the Ungracing media and in the non-engrazing media and the Indian language media So most of the journalists most of the journalists were non-metro or rule either non-metro or rule Most many of them where freelancers are stringers because independent journalists today can only survive By being freelancers stringers though I believe there is space even now in the mainstream media within which you can play as I did for the years But the spaces are shrinking In the process of what we're doing, we're not but the overall process. We're not just killing journalists.  There was a healthy debate in the media about And there were a fair number of people writing against the dam Polavaram, how many of you have even heard or can tell me anything about that? Yep. Thank you. That's one Okay, sorry, you by the way in I noticed that in the leftward bookstore. There is a brilliant brilliant book about it Yeah That's all right. Can you can you relax relax sit up? There is a wonderful book in there It's called people's history of a river. I strongly recommend you read this book by R. Uma Maheshway Okay, our publishers and it's a wonderful book and it really but the fact is look at the distance between the discussion debate Reporting over Narbada dam the silence on the Polavaram Dam, which is much larger as a project than So that's also a distance a measure of the distance you've changed now look at this again the 27 journalists the composition Which I told you about look at the fact of the kind of intimidation Brutalization of journalists in say Chattisgarh It hasn't really sparked that great outcry now why you can ask are there no big names no big corporate media journalists Because we work within a framework where the journalism has been tamed You're not going to cause that much offense to anybody if you do you will soon be a freelancer Which is a form of disguised So you The corporate media have already tamed the general since there are wonderful journalists in the corporate media Who don't realize 10 20%? of their potential because they're really they can't step beyond particular You can I mean you can write anything about la luprasa your friend But you don't dare I see as I said you can look at the various benchmarks. How was Jane you covered? How was Rohit? How is it when you are covered? How is he being covered today when you have the most completely fraudulent? Commission report when the appropriate authorities the collector of the district and the Thaisandar Declared that he was a very you have a commission set up to say with a specific aim of saying he wasn't Where are these skating editorials? Where is the examination of this? Who are they? What do we cover? So Reliance as I was saying owns a man has a million interest Whatever you are writing about effects. It's like if you were writing on consumer goods and you were writing on say proper game proper gamble Whatever you do you'll be writing about something about them So you start getting rained in you get called in you can also look at Interlocking directorships. I have a lot of fun getting on to the net and looking at the page of Board of directors of various media houses. I haven't done it for a while But I can tell you it's fun. You'll find boards of directors where there is not a single journalist Because what does new what are newspapers have to do with journalism anyway? They're about revenue. They're about profit. So you have On dining juggernail there was a one journalist representing the world newspapers, you know Winfra the world newspapers think he's an Irish guy Can't speak a word of Hindi or read it much less read it, but he's there on dining juggernail There are two big big tax consultants and real estate agents the third biggest in in the North Now these are the people sitting and presiding on the board of the largest newspaper in the country and perhaps the word This was a few years ago that Names might have changed but pick up any board you like of the major media houses and find how many Journalists there may be the owners children.   I Don't accept this And I think the idea is to liberate journalism art literature writing from corporations and Take it back to communities where it came from and that's what I think should be our direction That's where I think we should be going. That's where we should be going with us, but Otherwise We live in the era of the greatest ever apparatus of brainwashing and indoctrination Ever devised by human hand And that is your that is your media in 2009 What became a major political scandal a story on paid news? Well, I pointed out I did a story on the extraordinary modesty of chief minister Ashok Chauhan Who had 86 full pages in color on him without a single advertisement in a single newspaper? 86 pages full pages and his elect his election expenditure account on Advertising was 11,398 So I want I rang him up. I couldn't get him. I wanted to know where I could get those advertising rates Yeah, but The shit hit the fan with that story and the entire paid news scandal came out see how powerful the media are How powerful corporate media are The press council of India ordered an inquiry The inquiry committee was the subcommittee which did the inquiry was Paranjoy Guha Takota and Srinivas Reddy They produced a devastating 72 page Naming names which we had done in our story naming the newspapers naming the editors naming all these Guha and Guha's report was devastating It was immediately killed by the press council itself the press council killed its own Reduced it to 12 pages removing all names. So it was like a kiddies moral science You know be good guys good girls don't don't do this Well, I have to admit that the next press council chairman Immediately of the first act on assuming the chair was to put that report up, but it was four years of three years later By which time the issue was there? Every now they were here was the media exercising corporate censorship on an unbelievable scale where it could tie down the press council of the country Corporate ownership of media has grown your historically the first hundred and in Yeah, in a few years you'll complete 200 years of Indian owned media when you look at Miracle Akbar of Raja Ram Mohan Roy which from day one was talking about Sati talking about social reform widow remarriage You know education of girls Of those 200 years, there's a hundred and seventy years which is praiseworthy and Something to be proud of there were many chapters even there Which are not to be proud of like the communal press, but the mainstream nationalist press was a very humanist Okay, from bugger sweet to Mahatma Gandhi. There were people writing always writing about uniting people about changing things Yeah, and no one gives him credit for it one of our most under estimated journalists was Baba Saheb who also launched two papers and Really really scared the political opinion journalism Terrific stuff and these way your journalist your journalist every one of your nationalist heroes Doubled up as a journalist men and women including Sarojini Naidu Vijay Lakshmi Pandit all of them It's very hard. By the way, that was true of much of the third world in the Philippines. It was result Okay, in Africa. It was others those coming out of colonial experiences fought for human liberation this they saw their Journalism as a tool of change as an anti-colonial weapon and They gave you a framework of freedom to live it. What have you done with it? In the last 25 years All the owners of newspapers that ownership has changed where newspapers used to be owned by one individual one family Those are gone. Most those families have become corporations And you can just look at each one of them is involved in a thousand other businesses So their ability is totally compromised and it produces what I call the new convergence in the media What do I mean by the new convergence? The new convergence is a non technological convergence, okay Here's what happens Over the last I'm talking about 25 years now giant corporations come to dominate the media Reliance is the largest but there are others The media are increasingly corporatized Both in structure and itself in it. They're proud to boast of themselves as businesses BCCL and HD are both family owned functioning on corporate lines It's not corporations functioning on family lines the families owned functioning on corporate lines You have interlocking Directorships on the board So the head of a major private bank will be on the board of this newspaper and this newspaper's Management will have a director on that Back on that bank's board Ben Begdikian who wrote the greatest book on media in the last quarter of the last century called media monopoly and was national editor of the washington post Two times Pulitzer Prize winner. He described this incredible web of corporatization and described it as Those interlocking directorships he traced about 100 200 of them and called it Corporate incest within corporate incest because it was so And but Begdikian Predicted in the first edition of his book That it would be down to 20 companies in no time. He found 15 He called them the private ministry of information and culture and mind you Two time Pulitzer Prize winner national editor of washington post at the time When it when it published the pentagon papers That book was never reviewed in most places Or was called alarmist He was he was wrong 20 corporations from 50 to 20 he wrote that in his third edition By his fifth edition it was down to five now. It's about four companies Controlling the world of media largely Now of course the issue is but what about social media? It's liberating influence Tell me about it The digital monopolies are the worst monopolies in history for two reasons Please understand the extent of monopoly in the digital space Is greater than anything in print media or television Google learns owns 72 or 74 percent of all search Also google owns 72 to 74 percent By the way, they will not say more than 74 exactly around 80 percent They're not going to tell you that because if it shows about 75 percent there are going to be calls for legislation Against that kind of monopoly Most of them very modestly understate their achievement Microsoft Apple and google What they own about 80 odd percent more than 80 percent of email eBay PayPal eBay 68 percent of all auctions online PayPal god knows what percentage of commercial transactions it's in The same guys are now beginning to own me old media as well Washington Post is owned by Jeff Bezos of amazon Many of the others are lining up to make purchases of the caracasses By the way, let me also tell you one more thing the old advertising revenue model has collapsed Our guys don't want to believe it, but it has We still keep boasting in india. The media is growing Yeah From what to watch And that the fact is that the new york times Survived its worst financial crisis by taking a one billion dollar loan from the mexican billionaire carlos slim Who was Many years in the top four or five richest men in the Forbes list Washington Post is now owned by Jeff Bezos A hell of a lot of other properties in the legacy media the old media are being acquired by the digital guys Yes, there is space in the digital media. Yes, there is people like me have moved put one foot in there now But i'm saying there is also space In the in the old media if you're willing to fight for it You cannot fight for a better media without fighting monopoly. Forget it Are you going to fight for legislation that will End the kind of Ritualist homogeneity that has been brought to your media. I want you guys to understand one thing You're a country of 1.28 billion people 833 million rural Indians speaking 780 living languages Three of six of which are spoken by more than 50 million people three of which are spoken by more than 80 million people One of which is spoken by more than 500 million people and a lot of which are spoken by one million people or less One of which is spoken by one person now like J. Roo in the under months and seven persons like Saiman in Tripura, Saimari is here's the point and here's the central point You are the most heterogeneous and diverse societies in the world Being covered by a media that is more homogeneous than it has ever been in your history Hmm an incredibly homogeneous media is trying to cover the world's most complex heterogeneity and diversity It's doomed you're doomed How can they Why why the hell Would they give a rat's ass About a language of seven people seven speakers left in Tripura Why they bothered if the you know They'd be probably happy if the great Andamanese and the Jaravas die out completely then you can completely use the place for tourism Eco-tourism So You're please understand that is your problem in a nutshell You're a revenue driven profit driven entity If you're not going to get profit out of covering you why the hell should I cover I'm not going to cover you if it doesn't make money from you By the way, that's why publishing houses like let's go in matter Okay, they're going to cover the issues that matter to you to your children to your grandchildren They bring books that matter which these guys won't even review But at least they're putting your books there And if you want to you can So yes, there are spaces in the digital media, but there's also this problem this huge Corporatization that has taken place this gigantic corporatization that has taken place has completely squeezed media Into a you've you've made the bottom line of journalism is Does it make revenue if you reduce journalism to a revenue stream? And remember that has to be the case when your media is a very small department of large corporations It's not as if the media is the biggest entity in reliance, right? If it was the biggest entity in reliance, it would have some more say and some more leaving And probably be more obnoxious but But But it isn't it's one department. It gets its orders. You will not cover this party and that party Right. So when you've got this unbelievable situation where you've reduced journalism To a revenue stream There's the rest for me It's entire what follows is entirely logical don't You know one thing don't squeal And grown and moan to me about how bad the media are if you're not prepared to do something about it If you're not prepared to buy leftward publications If you're not prepared to buy the magazines journals the small support the small websites that are giving you information At their personal cost If you're not willing to stand up for journalists When you're not willing to stand up for the paranjoy guhata kultas For the neha dikshins if you are not willing to stand up for them When they are victimized for doing what for bringing new information that is central to your functioning as a democratic society Yeah, if you're not willing to stand up for them if you're not willing to subscribe to at least three alternative magazines All of you are many class people who can afford that if you're not willing to subscribe to three alternative publications Don't belly ache to me. You can you cannot absolve yourselves of the responsibility of being proactive on the subject We're not talking about media as media. We're talking about the central the fourth state of democracy As I keep saying in mumbai and delhi it's very hard to tell the difference between fourth state and real estate Many newspapers in this country make more money from their rentals and their buildings. I'm not joking There are major newspapers that make more income There are newspapers which are running only so that they can make that income because if they stop publication, they lose those premises Okay, so You have got to be proactive in getting there You have got to be proactive in in getting into this so you This but that was only one part of the interlocking Big business and media is one part of the interlocking. This is india Okay, now If you if you look by the way in dining jagran and some of the other boards, there were people south asia representative of mcdonalds was one of the You know absolutely an authority on hindi Realty firms In one in one board the representatives of general electric and raytheon were on the board of a hindi newspaper And from the world press institute, there was this gavel over any On the dining jagran board. I don't think he's there anymore Now the if a newspaper is a commercial entity worried about taxes worried about real estate worried about production worried about wages In this city in this city, you have seen Far more brazen abuse of the supreme court Than even the what the bccm is doing and it has come from the corporate media of this city How many of you are even allowed to know? That three times the supreme court of india has told media of this country You will implement the wage board And they just tell the supreme court to do you know what they don't care That's why I asked those guys at the compliance seminar. Please tell me who are the worst offenders Nobody answered my question on record. Nobody answered Because they're also scared everyone's scared In fact, one of the media guys said who can do anything to us. We are the media So you have this this is your other part of the interlocking the then you have Business families merge with politics And political families go into business And both go into media and you have the marans And you have the akali Have the baadans and you have the reddies And rama jira and all of them in in andra So what you're seeing is a three way political families enter business Mr. Raj Takari who never held a job in his life paid 421 crores along with his partner to buy the koheload Militia No um miss uh What's supria sule Who have only worked in an NGO declared um In asset ownership wealth in her election affidavit eight times that of her fathers Seven times that of her father shallot power Who declared just eight crores? and But I understand that he's a busy man and he might have been some confusion about Whether he thought they were asking him about annual or daily income So that was okay now Big political families get into business now if The day I read her election affidavit. I said I want to join that NGO I'm all for the voluntary sector and Then you have You have mr. Karthi chidambra From the political family going into business You have as I said the baadans the reddies everywhere so Political families are going into business business families are going into politics Media houses are going into both and both are entering media houses. That is your new convergence What can you possibly do? Oh, and another thing I mean when I started by saying surgical strike I'm saying that the lobotomization of the media took place when globalization came in that became the minimum Qualification globally for being an editor was that you ought to have had a frontal lobotomy and be utterly incapable of imagining Even the most remotely independent thought if you manage that for three years you'll be editor in chief And that's how the editor died in the early nineties. Okay You have Whether on whether the shameful behavior on the 10th of the nationals Whether the utterly crazy look I want to tell you something there are things to be proud of and look at how the media treated Those do you award wapisi moves? I'm proud of the writers of this country. I addressed the progressive writers associate two months ago And I said I didn't have the time I came for your conference only because of this that you guys Through your awards in the faces of these comebacks Yeah, and they were editorials criticizing them. There were articles on the opinion pages attacking them You have to understand that somebody living in bilaspur somebody living in gulbarga or aichu That award is such a big thing. It's the biggest thing in their rights to say i'm going to give it back Man, you have to understand how much courage and integrity that requires your writers did it Did you see a single big editor return his Padmishree or her Padmabhushan You're tamed I have to say that I did not return any award because I never ever accepted an award from a government so I I don't attack others who Accepted it's a personal decision. I believe a judge see it's like suppose you're heavily invested in a company And you're reading the auditor's reports and you find out that your auditor Is being given awards and prizes and money by the company you've got to be pissed off, right? I'm saying a journalist a reporter is external auditor to the government of India A journalist is an auditor A journalist is a witness That's my role So I can't be taken if as long as i'm covering the government I should not have any financial dealing with that I've worked on several government commissions and panels Like for my sins. I was on the bpl census expert group I never accepted a designation or an honorarium or anything and I went to the meetings myself I take that also amongst journalists and all of us We need to recreate the culture that existed 30 years ago 20 years ago of who we are and what we want to be What is it we cover finally? Let me give you some numbers These are from again from Delhi from the Center for Media Studies When it's not just the rationalist, I just want digression. It's not just the rationalist issue. It's not just JNU It's On the on the beef bag on everything the performance of the media is so deeply compromised Now Triple the luck is the discussion of the day Fine. Oh absolutely It is a crime against women. No question in my mind about that Yeah, but not one of them cares to observe the irony That you're having this triple talak debate In the regime of a prime minister Who deserted and abandoned his wife without a single word let alone that word repeated three times How many have done serious and probing stories of the plight of that woman who can't get who can't get So people who can't get She can't get her passport today She has a problem getting her passport She was going around from pillar to post the prime minister's wife I'm saying you're covering this talak business. Yeah cover it for god's sake do cover it But don't leave out this part back to the agenda as it is What is it that we cover? What are the numbers we cover? The center for monitoring studies Is situated in Delhi headed by n baskar around They've actually cut down the amount of monitoring they do because one who afford who can afford it But they cover They monitor three major six major channels and six three english three hindi Six major newspapers three english three hindi These are the big ones Okay, what they cover they look at In one exercise they look at the front page of the newspapers And the equivalent of the channels is prime time Okay, so then they look at news by origin news by space news by content label and what do they get This is what they get in 2014 15 0.23 percent of news Came out of rural india election year by year that's why it was better Where 833 million people reside This the this entity occupied less than 0.25 percent of space on the front pages tv stories by origin By rural by origin 0.80 percent in 2014 and 0.96 percent in 2015 Why did that go up? A because you had five major state elections and b because of the so-called drought Which is another story It's a mega water crisis. It's not a drought. You can have five good monsoons It's still going to be a very major problem for you because of the inequalities involved in the use and harnessing of water in this country Print stories by origin of rural origin news stories 0.24 percent Hindi newspapers dynamic basket hindustan and dynamic juggerna origin stories by our on agriculture 0.0 percent 0.2 percent and 0.0 percent we're talking about the front pages So 0.06 percent english newspapers ht ty hindu 0.1 0.27 0.00 That year is after i left the hindu okay And 0.17 percent is the average Whole states get zero There are 12 or 16 states and get zero in a whole year in terms of coverage By the way, you just have tripura suddenly in the news Not because you have an olympian who did so well Distinguished herself from that state It's also the state that ran the best nrgs for 10 years, but you don't get any damn reporting about that I went there to cover the nrgs when they had cut 53 percent from tripura's nrgs budget and doubled the nrgs budget of gujarat Where everything is done by machines and one of the work woman workers adivasis asked me Angrily because the money was going to swatch barat swatch barat so and She said what is this swatch barat? I was trying to explain she said If you're going to keep our stomachs empty, why the hell do you need to build toilet? So, uh, what what do we cover by the way? 66 percent of your newspapers front page 66 percent guess the origin New daily The tv gets it slightly better they are 51.73 percent of the time of time on prime time is daily And newspapers Front page 66.92 you can say you can almost round that off I think in the paid news scandal when we found every big newspaper was conducting this It then went to the election commission. It's still hanging mr. Chavan's case. It's still hanging in the screen code Various journalists got victimized along the way again a sign of hope Where did I get all that stuff from? Yeah It was the thing that really shared me up and made me go ahead 24 young journalists across Maharashtra Without knowing each other or coordinating with each other after the first story came Sent me anonymous packet both things they put their name and said sir if you use my name my job is gone Many of them knowing that I don't read Marathi Gave me rough translations and said this is paid news. This is how much we were paid for it This is how much the publication got per column And that's how your paid news story came out From journalists putting their necks on the line for you within that mainstream corporate media I think it's something to be proud of that with all the damn cynicism We're still attracting such youngsters to the media that they're still coming to journalists it If In in rural India the the model is criminal intimidation and murder in the city. See why is it that many of us don't have the problem? Please understand that there is a very clear caste and class structure in the media Most of us Working in the mainstream media. We have a ready made insurance by virtue of our class background Oh very much by the virtue of our speaking English awful and by virtue of being Largely a bunch of brands That's how I you know You have to hear this story. I remember when the other Prasad was first declaring himself to be a chief ministerial candidate The damp press conference was divided on cast lines. Everybody was sitting according to their And they were chewing pann and ridiculing the man and saying I Today all the paid new stuff is now legitimate. I hope you know that it's now called native advertising It's called online. It's called native advertising It's paid for content that is disguised to look like news, which is what made news is it's now called native advertising You are in deep shit with your media We all are we all are What do we do one there's no alternative no option All movements particularly progressive movements must develop Not just their own media firstly, they also need to develop a media strategy They need to have a media wish Understand what's going on in the world Okay now You've got to have Left to it. You've got to have these publications. You've got to have the people's archive of rule in India, which I represent You've got to have news click, which is accessible to you However, you've got to also have a strategy And you've got to understand that one of the first things in that is if you can't break monopoly, you have no chance You can fight a positive battle saying we are fighting for diversity in a diverse nation We are fighting for heterogeneity in a heterogeneous nation and we cannot allow 1.3 billion voices speaking 780 languages to be spoken for by a small narrow elite We have to have laws and directions that ensure Diversity and by the way, please the much underestimated all-india radio broadcasts in more languages than the rest of the media Okay, they do another thing that you have to do is to fight for Reforming and strengthening your public broadcaster, which by which I mean it should not be a government broadcaster It's got to be a public broadcaster. You'll really see how you may laugh at me, but there were a few years when Somnath Chatterjee was speaker and even now Where Lok Sabha and Raj Sabha TV offer you much better political discussion without those people being Pits of some corporation or the other Put it yet You do get good stuff and these are the only these are channels where you actually get Satyajit Ray films or Brinansen films or things like that Think about it a public broadcaster as against the government The present regime has been crack earlier regime was tracking down on that autonomy. The present one will take it further In the in terms of their economics in terms of their approach to the media They're not very different except that this one brings its personalized Saffronized nastiness to everything that the earlier last day As Arun Shauri said Very correctly and the one time that I have to agree with Mr. Shauri He said the NDA is the upa plus cow I think that's a perfect perfect solution. It's upa plus cow So you have to fight for the public broadcaster You have to fight for laws against monopoly. You have to fight for laws to ensure diversity Yeah, you also another Stop accepting That X is a journalist only if the corporate media certifies him or her Journalist the origin of the word was simply someone who maintained the journal Yeah, there are things to being a professional journalist a discipline and ethics a verification You know journalism is a discipline of verification Do you find any verification in the nationalist history hysteria going on On the television now, you know, it's all very well to beat up on one anchor. I don't think that is the Right thing to do He's I mean, it's it's natural because He he you know, he makes the word obnoxious seem like a compliment But but it isn't just him Please understand those are the parameters the media have drawn for themselves They're looking at it in terms of capturing eyeballs t-arpies money advertising So that's So then the other things is also that you have to address Every political movement progress movement has got to develop its strategy and develop its own media And for that I think we need to break down the privileges of a very tiny bunch of people speaking for a nation I'm saying that can happen If they give more and more voice in our stories as journalists and in their stories themselves To everyday people and their everyday lives It's what I'm trying to do with the People's Archive of rural India You can look at the URL ruralindiaonline.org And I also leave some of those Bookmarkers or whatever for you so you can take those and have a look at I mean visit the site You need a large that the digital spaces will also shake My idea that one reason why the digital space Is a more friendly zone than the others Is because the cost factors are very different and much lower than Like One last thing about what say we are doing in this India by the way breaks down into 95 regions historically evolved or natural physical regions It breaks down into 95 regions. Do you know that no publication or channel of yours covers more than 8 to 10? Effectively there may be mention of someone when there's a flood or an earthquake or something but covering them physically In the People's Archive of rural India We are determined over the next five years to put out a fellow in residence living with ordinary people mandatory residents of three months one year of fellowship from where We will get the only database in this country that will have stories Representative of all regions all cultures of this country I invite you to join me in that Endeavour and I want to thank you for being so patient with me in overrunning my time But that's what I meant when I said you live in a media In a media world in a media universe that is politically free but imprisoned by profit. Thank you


The amazing fact is that our brain perceives life as a kind of space, yeah, physical space, and our memories are like landmarks. The same part of the brain, the hippocampus, deals with long-term memory, spatial perception, physical space, and social space, how we function in society, in relationships with other people, positioning within society, etc., etc. Same organ, looks a bit like a seahorse. Same tiny space in our brains tackles these three seemingly unrelated functions. And yet, if we come to think of it, our life is like a territory. Our mind is definitely a territory. Memories are indeed like monuments or natural landmarks. And we navigate using these landmarks, using these benchmarks, using these monuments. We navigate our lives the same way we navigate physical space, so it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense to have a single organ within the brain that tackles all three stores, long-term memories, which are navigational aids in somehow finding our way through life, with a core identity that guides us the equivalent of a compass or nucleus. And on the other hand, allows us to function in physical space, where life takes place, as ultimately, we are all physical objects and our lives unfold and unfurl within physical space. Any physicist would tell you this, and I am a physicist. Okay, Bon Bon Nîmes and Bon Bon Nôtes, Boubottes and Chauchan Nîmes and everything else. Today we are going to discuss the hippocampus and how do we navigate our lives as if we were going on an overseas adventure, age of discovery, the explorers of the 15th century, the guys who discovered continents, terrors incognitas, and other unheard of territories. So this is today's topic. And who the heck am I? My name is Sam Vaknin and I'm the author of Malignance of Love, Narcissism Revisited. I'm also a former visiting professor of psychology and I'm currently on the faculty of SEAPS, Commonwealth for International Advanced Professional Studies, with branches all over the universe and within this galaxy on this planet in Cambridge United Kingdom, Toronto, Canada, and with Outreach Campus in Lagos, Nigeria. That was a long introduction. I hope you have enough hippocampus to store this memory forever. May it help you navigate your life and find your destiny. Okay, enough nonsense, Vaknin. If you continue like that, I will have to find. Okay, the talk today is based on a book which I strongly recommend. It's called Wayfinding. Wayfinding, one word, by MR O'Connor. Don't ask me what the MR stands for. Wayfinding. Okay, there's a lot of information there. Now, I started by saying that the hippocampus stores long-term memories, allows us to navigate physical space, but recent discoveries have demonstrated that the hippocampus is crucial in navigating what might be called, for lack of a better metaphor, social space. About a decade and a half ago, there were groups of researchers in New York and where else, in Israel, and they wanted to find out whether the hippocampus has anything to do with social functioning. Does the hippocampus, for example, convert social spaces into real spaces in the mind's eye and then allows the individual to function there, the relationships and interactions among individuals, roles, levels of power, hierarchies, they're all very, these metaphors, these similes are all very structural, very visual. Why? Why do we talk about networks? Why do we talk about the corporate ladder? Why do we talk about hierarchies and nodes? Why do we use this highly graphic and highly visual language to describe what essentially is, essentially are interpersonal relationships, because we need to visualize. We need to visualize because for better and for us, we are using a specific part of the brain to navigate our social lives in conjunction with many other parts. And this part is the hippocampus and it's not used to anything abstract. The hippocampus is a warehouse, it stores memories and it copes or deals with physical space. So these researchers in Israel and New York, they asked individuals to participate in a role-playing game. In this role-playing game, the subjects of the study moved to another town and they had to find a place to live in that new town and to work there. And so what the researchers have discovered is the hippocampus was activated during these role-playing tasks, they were not real tasks, but the hippocampus was very active. It seemed that the hippocampus was telling the individuals, instructing the individuals how to navigate these new tasks within an unknown territory. And then there was another study about a decade ago, 2012, by Sandeep Techie and others, and the study was titled Navigating the Auditory Sin. And these people found, these scholars, these scientists found, that professional piano tuners and London taxi drivers had a lot more hippocampus gray matter. The hippocampus was hypertrophied, much bigger. Again, piano tuners and cab drivers. The longer the person spent, the more years the person spent tuning pianos, the larger was the hippocampus. It seems that the hippocampus treated sound as a kind of space, actually. The hippocampus was mapping the sounds, different pitches, different frequencies, different beats, they all translated into landmarks, routes, paths, journeys, and so the tuning process was like a trip, traveling among these landmarks in an imaginary continent, imaginary territory, imaginary turf, turf or space. It's amazing. It seems that the hippocampus is converting every type of experience, every type of lived experience into a spatial representation. In the same journal, two years later in 2014, they found out that musical training induces plasticity in the hippocampus. After just two semesters of training, the researchers saw in fMRI that music academy students, their hippocampi were enhanced, but they were not enhanced structurally. They didn't only grow, they didn't only evolve, but their responses were enhanced. Whenever the students heard sounds, the hippocampus reacted very powerfully. It's as if the hippocampus became a music detection system and the cells of the hippocampus became musical notes, which is pretty amazing. It seems that the hippocampus regards music as a space, a form of space. Do you remember my work in training? I was not the first to suggest that verbal abuse is a form of music. But I was the first to suggest that verbal abuse generates and training the coordination or synchronization of brain waves in the abuser and in his victim or target. And so the hippocampus would explain this. If everything drains into the hippocampus, the hippocampus is the hub, the transport or traffic hub of all these phenomena, it would seem that the hippocampus would take the verbal abuse, convert it to music, and then create an imaginary space within which the words of the verbal abuse would become landmarks or monuments or monoliths or signposts. And then the victim would be captured or captivated within this imaginary space, never to emerge. It's terrifying on one hand, but it has very powerful explanatory, very strong explanatory power. So we now know that there are three forms of navigation. Clearly if you have a space, you need to navigate the space. We navigate the space of our autobiography and the space of our identity using memories. We navigate the space of music, verbal abuse unfortunately, using words and notes and beats and frequencies and pitches. And all these navigational tasks are focused and centered on this tiny organ, the hippocampus, and somehow intimately linked to the process of generating and storing long-term memories. We know that there are three types of navigation. There is vector navigation. Vector navigation is moving along constant bearing relative to some cue, some information, some sign. Now in nature the sign could be or information could be magnetic or celestial or environmental, birds navigate this way. But vector navigation can be internalized. Vector navigation could be totally abstract. We can have an internal cue or a social cue or a sexual cue, which would generate a cognitive map, which would then become a space which would then be navigated via vector navigation. Tormann came up with the concept of a cognitive map, those of you who want to learn more about it. The second type of navigation is called piloting. Piloting is navigating relative to familiar landmarks. Now true navigation involves a distant unseen goal. So it is the trading of the familiar for the unfamiliar, the landmarks of familiar. The immediate space is familiar, but we are going forward. We are piloting towards an unfamiliar, unforeseen endpoint. This is called piloting. Same here. When we set ourselves a goal and the goal could be, for example, to avoid pain. It doesn't have to be, I want to become the president of the United States and have orange hair. No siri. It could be I just want to avoid pain because I'm a kid. I'm 18 months old and I'm hurting. I want to avoid pain. The minute we set a goal, we establish, we create, we generate an unknown continent, an area, a place, a space that is strange, unseen, inaccessible, unfamiliar. And how are we going to, how do we get there? How are we going to get there? By sticking to the familiar, to the comfort zone if you wish. We use familiar landmarks to navigate step by step one toe in front of the other until we reach the unseen, the unfamiliar, the terra incognita, the dragons be there. And when we reach that place it then becomes familiar, of course. And so we link the past familiarity and previous erstwhile landmarks with new familiarity, new landmarks. Discontinuity is what is known as core identity. So core identity contrary to the representation in psychological literature is not a fixed static entity. It's a process. It's in flux. It's dynamic. It's never ending. It has no end goal or end point. It's ever evolving. It's chimeral. It's transformative. It's change. Our core identity, and that's the beauty of being human. Core identity is change itself, transformation. What happens when we have rigidity, when we cannot transform, when we cannot set goals in unfamiliar unseen territories, unexplored black continents? What happens then? We have personality disorders. What's the definition of a personality disorder? A rigid pattern of dysfunction. The third type of navigating, and remember you can navigate physical space and you can navigate social space and you can navigate your internal space. So the third form of navigating and you can navigate towards obtaining a goal. You can navigate your life plan or life goals. Okay. So the third type is the most controversial and is known as dead reckoning. It's known more seriously as path integration. Dead reckoning or path integration is when you keep track of every stage of a journey in order to compute your location. So you're kind of played by ear by ear. There's kind of heuristic play. You take one step forward and you recalibrate yourself. You reorient yourself.  So dead reckoning or path integration. But there's a problem with this third type and the problem is that mammals, especially humans, rats, they're not very good at path integration. And yet psychological theories, especially cognitive map theorists, they say that the hippocampus is best equipped to do path integration, dead reckoning.  They don't do it well. They don't know how to do it. The same goes for rats and many others. They don't know how to do it. So what's wrong with the cognitive map theories? Why do they say that the hippocampus should be best, should be at its best doing exactly this kind of third navigation? So it's a serious problem which is hitherto unresolved. Dead reckoning is also, how to put it gently, very limited, a very disabled kind of strategy, very disempowering kind of navigation. It's dead reckoning and path integration are very good in short distances, local scales, but they are not strategic. They are tactical. In real world navigation, you would never engage in dead reckoning and you would never do path integration because you would end up hundreds of miles away from your target. There's cumulative error rates. There's cumulative errors. Errors, mistakes accumulate as you dead reckon, as you integrate your path. So while we have outliers, we have examples, for example, the denizens or inhabitants of the Arctic tundra or the Australian desert of Origenes, the Australian desert, even they use path integration and dead reckoning in cahoots coupled with a form of singing, which is singing itself creates verbal musical landmarks which are then correlated very closely with physical landmarks. So navigational capacities of humans cannot be explained, it seems to me, by any cognitive map theory. Never mind how grounded cognitive map theories are in our current knowledge of the hippocampus. In reality, that's not how humans navigate. A scholar by the name of Eichenbaum, who is an expert on navigation, one of the world's leading experts on navigation, he said, I think navigation is not about Cartesian maps. It's a story. It's a memory problem and this links closely with the interview that I've granted to Michelle Paradise. It's all, sorry, to Elisa, an interview about storytelling. It's all about storytelling. We are, we are all storytellers. We live off narratives. As far as we are concerned, narratives are reality. So navigation is about narratives, about the stories that we create because stories generate memories, make sense of memories, organize memories, imbue memories with an organization and an interpretation. We navigate along storylines. We navigate within narratives, even when we are walking the streets of New York. Even when we are flying or driving, we're still flying and driving within a story. Our mind is a story generator, the greatest author of fiction. The hippocampus, says Eichenbaum, is not so much about spatial memory. It's about spatial memory. It's about memory space. This is a very crucial thing because it would seem that all the concept of reality testing is wishful thinking. We are not embedded in reality. We are embedded in our stories about reality. We are embedded in the narratives that we create to make sense of reality. We are embedded in our sensor, our sensory inputs from reality, which are then filtered and fitted into cerebral neural models, mathematical models. We never interact with reality, not even indirectly. We interact with our internal presence or reality. In this sense, we are highly solipsistic. Imagine the condition of the narcissist, who is even more divorced than normal healthy people from reality. He and the psychotic live entirely within their own minds. True navigation, says Eichenbaum, is what happens when we travel to an unseen place. It requires planning a future and visioning the place we want to go, calculating or remembering the route to get there, a sequence or a narrative, and then orienting to ensure that we are on the right track, often by comparing our memory, or perhaps a description we've been told, to our real-time perception of movement through space. There are huge memory demands to solving the problem of navigation, said Eichenbaum. Memory steps in at every moment. Space and its role in hippocampal function has been oversold, says Eichenbaum. Space is just one of many fabrics that we hold memory in. I like to compare it to a vault. That's not Eichenbaum, that's me. I like to compare it to a vault, a safe. Space is one of the vaults. We have many vaults, many safes, safe deposit boxes. Safe deposit boxes, one of them is space, physical space. Another one is social space. Another one is internal space. Another one is imaginary space. They're all spaces. We have this huge wall of safe deposit boxes, like in a bank, in the basement. This basement is known as the unconscious. Eichenbaum believes that hippocampal cells, they're also known as place cells, are much more flexible and capable of adapting to different dimensions, real and abstract. So, Eichenbaum and others differentiate between temporal dimensions and spatial dimensions. So, Eichenbaum says that actually the hippocampal cells, the cells in the hippocampals are not only space-oriented, but they are also time-oriented, which ties in nicely with my work in physics, where I say actually that space is just a form of time. It's a manifestation of time, it's a variant of time. Eichenbaum expands on this. He says, time is a philosophically interesting question. Do we make it up? As you navigate, you are moving in space and time together and the hippocampus is mapping both of them. Eichenbaum believes that the organization of episodic memories is supported by these time cells of the hippocampus. Mapping sequences of memories in time is critical to navigation as mapping geographic space. So, this is a totally new approach to what the brain does. The brain seems to be transitioning not only through reality in its physical sense, measurable sense, observable sense, but it seems to be equally transitioning and perhaps more transitioning, journeying, traveling through imaginary internalized space, generating all the time internal landmarks such as memories, very reminiscent of virtual reality or augmented reality. And so, the hippocampus is encoding according to recent studies, both time and distance, simultaneously. And then the same neurons start to fire when they encode space. It seems that distance plus time equals space. It could be an internal distance.  The cells of the real hippocampus, the physical hippocampus, physiological organ, they map multiple dimensions. Spatial and temporal Einstein would be very pleased. The hippocampus is organizing physical space but also what Eichenbaum calls temporally structured experiences into representations of moments in time. He says, after years of studying rats and mazes, I came to understand the hippocampus as a grand organizer of the brain. It's organizing and integrating all these bits and pieces of information in a contextual framework. It does create a map. I'm all for the cognitive map in the original sense. That is a map where you put stuff to remember when they are in relationship to each other. That is a specific, limited, concrete sense of moving in geographic space and how did I get from here to there. The other sense is this abstract term. How did I navigate graduate school? What's the path to the presidency in human language? These are both legitimate. But which one is the hippocampus? Is it the specific one or the generic one? I think the hippocampus could mean to map things in time and there are other spaces in addition to geometric space. It doesn't have to be Euclidean or linear. That's just a really good example of what the hippocampus does, but it has other functions. He thinks that the original idea of the cognitive map, which I remind you was described by Tormund, T-O-L-M-A-R in 1948. It's a very old concept. The original idea was really like this. It had to do with space and time and it was not limited to a specific type of navigation like path integration. These are later developments. Adelaide thinks the original idea is far superior to our current perceptions and conceptions of cognitive maps. If you read the paper and I did prior to this video, you see that the cognitive mapping Tormund's work is multidimensional. It resembles very much space time in Einstein's relativity theories. It's a tool capable of mapping, mapping multitudes of life experiences. You can position them everywhere the same way we position an observer in the space time of Einstein. So how do we navigate our lives? How do we navigate time, social space, music, verbal words, including verbal abuse? It's complex and it's in the brain. It's not a Cartesian map. Very easy to decipher, too dimensional. It's unfolding memory within an organizing principle which is a narrative which is then embedded in human relationships and derived from them. It's relational sensory experiences, personal history and imaginary spaces such as the future. I will close with a quotation called Eichenbaum. The hippocampal system said Eichenbaum is encoding events as a relational mapping of objects and actions within spatial contexts, representing roots as episodes defined by sequences of places traversed. That is, of course, the massive failure in narcissism, pathological narcissism, and in other mental health disorders when the ability to generate these internal maps, these spaces which are imaginary, this ability has been disrupted. One of the major internal spaces is known as the self or ego or whatever you want to call it. This process requires the formation of this space. It's mapping the generation of landmarks within it requires separation, individuation.  Individual, the concept of the individual, does not imply a static entity, immutable. It's simply a way to describe our ownership of constant generation of internal imaginary spaces and their correlation with other spaces which are less imaginary. This is what the hippocampus does, so the mind does. The narcissist is not allowed to generate the primordial most important internal spaces such as the self or the ego. It's therefore incompetent at generating spaces it doesn't have the experience. This is the key and the core of the narcissistic pathology. It's a lost, disoriented person. It's a person who has no maps, cognitive or otherwise, has no spaces to roam and to explore and has no landmarks to guide him.


Another I have notes before we really get into it. I do want to say have you heard of express VPN? You probably have by now. Go ahead and check them out We couldn't we could not have done this RTT live stuff for that express VPN So go ahead check it out protect your online privacy at express pvpn Com slash RTTV. I had to like double-check the link because I always get it wrong every week. I don't know why I've been chosen to do this You're amazing. Yeah You guys want to join us in chat, please create a free rooster teeth account right now We can join us in chat. I messaged recently about how there's anyone who have notes, and there are people who responded Hi guys. Let's get to see you again. Now's a good time to jump in. Now's a good time I Will say why soon And if you guys haven't check out the real cannon podcast, I got a little blurb here I want to read it is a deep dive into the world of pop genre genre pop culture Providing backstory in context to what's at the forefront of nerd media, which is weird because it's now also considered mainstream media Like John Reisinger and co-host Charles pull you more together open the gates to everything trending in movies TV and gaming offering fresh perspectives on this on the stories Defining the cannon in real time Making sense to me now My window is so small. I thought it said stones. I like how you zoomed in with your eyes I If you guys can't tell And I am your host or one of your hosts for today use of Adiola Hello everyone with me today is one of our favorite boys Carrie shock Ross everybody my name is Carrie shock Ross I'm drinking a topo. I'm back. I'm drinking a topochico hard seltzer Are you digging this topic? You know what? Well, pick you out It's all right. This is tropical mango And on this very Some would say the second most special episode of I have notes We're joined by Our our our forever special guest Aaron most specialist. Hey, I'm back. Hey, I don't have an alcoholic drink Unfortunately, you're something ranch water in a second. I really wanted to make ranch water and then we've also got our Our our special guest and producer and friend Sam. What's your last name? Mitchell? I'm glad you forgot it. I knew that Okay, I knew it to the level if it had been a multiple choice. I would have gotten it right. No problem It would have been easy. I would have considered it easy And if I thought about it for more than a second I would have remembered We'll see what if I feel like if it was a multiple choice to know one of those ones where they're really it's like Mitchell Michelle If you're if you're a Sam Mattel of the Mattel fame, I feel like what are you doing get more shoes? Yeah Yeah How's everybody doing Well, I'm drinking. Uh, yeah. Yeah.  I'm on that bandwagon with you toast. Oh, are you toasting? toast Toast the camera three two one go So, uh I said it was our second Second most special episode of I have notes ever I thinking, you know, the first episode we ever did We'd be the most special Right the first most special And this is the second most special because It's the last We get our Tuesday nights back yo Yeah Tuesday it's Wednesday right now too, so uh If you're seeing the thumbnail You'll know why but uh, yeah, uh Not gonna be a bummer about it, but showed and do as well as it could have maybe uh, and uh, we're gonna pause it for a while And see what happens. Uh, yeah, is the nice way of saying it, uh, but it's been a very funny year Yeah of doing it and we're gonna have a fun 49 minutes Oh, yeah, it's true left the the biggest note for I have notes is that um We were in the middle of a pandemic Yeah That's an accomplishment I mean, oh, yeah, I wish we could have done an in-person episode. I know I think so I that would have been really nice.  Oops I I mean, we maybe we can still do it, but it is funny because like uh One of the things I was doing right before we left office was building the set Oh, no Have completed in the office still and so like I'm gonna get in the office whenever that is here in like five months or some Shit Well, does it does it maybe we just change the name and then we can start over we'll all wear mustaches and we'll be like this is uh I have Notes Wait, that's the same show name. Shit. I have notes. It's it's will they told us They they told us like if you want to do podcasts like one of the things nobody just like discovers Or really wants to You know like listen slash watch a general podcast unless you're like, you know the macro brothers or someone famous or something So you need to hit a note like our niche, right? So we we do need it It could I have votes was an option we talked about I have goats was an option We talked about like so we just really need to find our niche so we can be more specific We're gonna be you know the red web of boat crimes And it was it was about uh, if spireman's webs had been Red instead of white, maybe this is why we got canceled because I make bad jokes And I can't help it and also I think you just made carnage You know Twindolin and chat um suggested a new title I have notations which is there you go Frankly, we'll pull on over they're like, hey, I thought we canceled the show. They're like, oh, no. No. No. This is I have notations Oh, okay. Let's get it Different tm. I don't know whose voice I was like. I don't know who I was representing It was just this like a morpheus person who stamps things which doesn't exist, but uh, uh, It's x we got t-shirts You can buy these out of it. Yeah, these are like gonna be rare now Yeah, they're gonna be on sale. That's what's gonna happen.  Yeah I like how I had not gotten and I have no shirt for the longest time I finally got one and then maybe a week or two later. I got another one But like in a different color in our being Yeah We didn't want to make you feel bad erin, but I know that was our budget You know, that's that's what it got us. They our ceo.  Yeah Hey, I've been out of it for a little bit. Uh Did they make that so it doesn't hurt the environment yet? No, no, I think all I mean she's a cryptocurrency still kind of garbo to the environment I I would like to say it is only as bad as the energy that is created is Right, like if it all came from wind or solar power, it wouldn't be bad, right?  So does that apply to dogecoin then? I have some thinking to do Quick to solve if you're operating at a profit maybe even I hadn't connected those particular dots I mean It applies to like everything Name hey, you're right. So name an industry that doesn't use energy like you can be like He's got to hide now that he knows he's ruining the world Did you um, I I watched there was that Netflix show. I think it was like connected and they were talking about how actually buying a um And buying a game digitally is Uh, could be actually worse for the environment. I think I heard about that too. Yeah, yeah because of the energy It produces costs. Yeah, it costs more than like the Okay, the actual physical Kerry's day feel bad But I have and this is not sponsored and I wish it was because I wish I could get it for free I got that good papa AT&T fiber my games Fast they download fast so fast Also, even if it's a little bit Worse on energy costs or whatever you might want at least at least your digital copy of a game's not ending up in a land Right, like true. That's I feel like a humongous part of why Digital goods are great is because I mean the Mona Lisa's never gonna end up Hey These are good notes. I enjoy these.  We're talking about, um, I do think individual consumption is not nearly as bad as like Big mega companies and corporations. It's like dumping way more So Oh, yeah, and it's like like when we had that huge snowmageddon and there were like skyscrapers downtown Oh god, that still makes me mad Used in ages. It's like, yeah, there's plenty of people doing worse. Yeah, then you are holding a couple doge A couple I was supposed to go to the moon But I mean here it is. I don't know what you're on about like It's like 10 times higher in a month. Yeah, but like that's that's a moon. I don't know what other moonshot you're looking for Everyone you see any other I didn't actually think it was gonna happen 10x game. It's but anyone everyone in the subway was like, let's get it to a dollar Well, yeah, I mean that would have been great. That's what they're all they've been about that for like five years Like yeah saying that it's but I'd like it now. Hold on to it. Let's just say I'm I'm Metaphorically invested in its progress progress and also maybe literally Um, this is not a financial advice Don't don't sue me because of the last episode. Come on Don't kick me while I'm down I'm just okay. Yeah I wouldn't worry. I'm just kidding. Nobody can see this.  Yeah, allegedly. Oh true. True. True. True. True. Allegedly. I own dogecoin Allegedly, I did I did uh, well this in court this stands up as allegedly. Oh, you have to say allegedly for the uh, audio only listeners Ah, okay There you go. That's why we're getting canceled. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's because of that. That's because of that. Good with the audio Wherever you are She's was big big. Thank you to everyone in chat. Um, when we had said the announcement about how we were okay If you canceled it, yeah, there was a there was a nice influx of people going.  Yeah I might have told my um our team. Hey, this is our last episode No pressure, but you'll get brownie points if you come and watch Yes And christine stuck it. Yes. Yeah Now, I uh, way to way to be a lead there and that's Going to work right there. Good stuff. I know that y'all but I process everything through comedy So I'm just I'm just gonna make a bunch of jokes big same. That's fine But we we we super appreciate everybody who's who's Watched and like there have been a lot of names that have been here like every single week And it's really cool to see also we really appreciate it. Uh, I actually think uh, while while we're talking about it too I think Mike, uh, oh Is an engineer for pretty much every single episode uh has uh A beautiful images of a collage of images that he's been he's been gathering A slide show if you will slide show if you will for context any time we use a program called v mix and any time you log out of v mix at the end of the show it Saves that last frame of whatever your face looks like so Like most projects and broadcast it became a meme to make stupid faces for your last frame. It's got like pokemon snap Here we go, oh no Oh The full house good. Okay. Thank you. We can see how we've we've changed over the year I like how noel gets more shoes. Oh no. Well Yeah, that's that's his Angi Don't talk to me. Oh, this is the only one that doesn't change at all. Like it just his background changes. No, I've known no well now for All right eight years or something. That's a long time. He's never aged not a day. What if I go like the exact same as when I'm at I feel like if no, well, we're here and I feel like I can say this because I'm asian but No, well is also half asian.  We're not allowed to know either. Okay. Yeah, we can't know we can't talk about I can inform you and then you can forget it after I say it. Oh, look Jordan. Who who is that?  Just go is he Um, in in the same vein of um, or Asian doesn't raise it as they say Ah, yes. Yeah Thank you for laughing caring. Oh my god Y'all are always great That plays into the race and joke is very good. I was wondering if I existed word play. Oh Yeah, you're in there. Look, you're so fresh a fresh little baby boy another one Slump. I feel like a lot of these are beginning It's true. Mike. Yeah, Mike did admit that. Um, he Stopped taking screenshots after her time Yeah, we gave up.  It is Yeah, disgusting. I don't know her Is that michael jones? Of the critically claims uh face jam. I was totally gonna say space gym to be honest. Oh, look Well, that didn't register as being sam to me for a hot second. I don't know why they did it to me I've never seen that angle. That was sam. I don't even know where he got it from. Yeah, where was that? Michael not sam michel That was that was me probably not wanting to close it accidentally Oh Eight points out carry just got more figures on a shelf. I'm like, yeah, that's true.  I didn't even live at that Sam, what is it? When was this other house? That's all the one I like I can tell which ones are mine before july. This is gonna be great for our audio listeners. I know Yeah, yeah, we actually this is a good point.  Oh, that's a good one. And they're replicated. Okay. I'm now joking for sure. That's fine My shelf got more figures of the week My son, that's the best one so far. Yeah, and then cats. That's the best one to end on. Yeah. Um, thank you, mike Thank you, mike. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, bro. I guess Now that we got all that out of the way and we're a dead show What do you all want to talk about? What do you think we should have done? And what do you think the next one should be? Yeah What do you say to audience interpretation as well? We have notes We we are notes. We Uh Notes have us. I don't know. I mean, I definitely I I was really happy with how this turned out being uh, not in person, but I think it would have been even better in person. So that would have been nice. Oh, yeah Because that's how we did our test episodes. Yeah, those were fun. And those were very good Yeah Now I don't even know if we have them they might they might be on the hard drive in the office the hard drive The one senior hard drive the hard drive the hard drive in the the broadcast pc Oh, yeah, and um department like on that one. We'll have to dust it off. Yeah, it's in a tomb now. Yeah Uh, one of us went into there a while ago in um We had had a pumpkin from halloween that everyone intended to throw out wait, that's right.  Oh, no um That yeah, I like it's been nightmares Wow that that is a nightmare fuel I think we do Like in-depth stories on like Really charming internet things Like just nice stuff that's happened, you know, I feel like we obviously have red web that does pretty much like they're like This is spooky and scary and a weird story and like maybe we just do it's like this is really nice And this person was good and helped somebody Oh, the anti notes and we could call it like Scarlet mesh or something I don't I don't know what other synonyms there are we I feel like I have to be the opposite Simplatus maybe um we could do like a I think extreme diet show Oh Called uh face stop See this is where we're gonna cancel i'm having an off day Oh He's an on day. It's just there's not just the the community isn't there They're not up to party. We appreciate it.  Uh, I mean you heard it here first Where was the support? There has been a lot of support No It's it was a very similar thing with fan service too where like Like the people that watch the show we appreciate they loved it and they were like super dedicated it and they like Incredibly nice Just didn't get a huge reach and a similar thing kind of happened here too We're just like y'all have been awesome and get a lot of like really cool feedback from y'all But could could have been more or two more Unless we got to talk about some more anime on here. So that was yeah Yeah, I there was quite a bit of anime talk. Yeah, I learned a lot about a lot of fun things um From from i have nets um, I I have a note in that um, I think I was kind of wondering after a certain point.  I have notes instead of a 60 minute one You want to start that now? You can just end right now That's But I it's one bite size. Oh man You want bite size because I feel like that's kind of what um for if something was like a talk show, right? I feel like with with our ever shortening attention spans Maybe that could have been that could have worked. I could see that favor. Yeah I find myself as a as a person who, uh Uh eats very quickly I I typically am either looking for content that is about five to seven minutes long Or four hours long Like I'm either looking for the I need to look for the I need to eat real quick Let me watch something or the okay. I'm done with work, but I can't have silence. Are you kidding me? Let me put something on The rest of my day needs to be filled by one thing. Yeah Yeah, um, so I could see like sometimes it's like an hour is like, oh, I don't know if I can do that Yeah, yeah I don't know So quicker notes. I have I have short notes. Okay, just a round of quick notes. Um Fair enough. No. No. No. No. I'm just saying that's east as I do.  No, no Sam's really wanted to get out at the 30 minute mark. I do I got one here. I think We get it. Well, hey Carrie and I were accidentally supposed to have a one-off spinoff podcast, which is still going to happen I like that idea. I just had to take a vacation, but now that I'm back and recharge. Yeah, the the Bunker boys or whatever Wait, I don't know if I know about this, of course. No, hang on.   It's like this is 71 tools in one thing And I'm gonna give it to Carrie With no context and see if he can figure out all the tools on it. Yes Uh And then in my mind, I imagined because we're both we're both joke boys joke boys Little little like improv bit like how does this tool save you in the apocalypse? What can I what can I possibly do kind of stuff like that? Yeah, and um And then then I also got us a book. Well, I got carry a book. That's like, uh 101 Preparations to do with your kid. Oh And I feel like we would go through that and look through and just make fun of preppers I think Carrie's missing one important aspect of that. What is it? Yeah, any children kids? Unless you know, it's okay. Well, we're children. No, we're actually we're gonna ask our parents Yeah, I would say I was like you could you could try to prep me as though I was your baby boy That does sound fun. Yeah, I love this idea. I'm clearly not prepared. I think I need to dive into change Like if if like a bomb goes off my first thing it's like, which jordan's do I take like, you know, it's not Um, I really want to get one of those like, uh, like, you know, like the the straw that you can drink out of and it like filters Yeah, we have life straws. Okay. Yeah, I have one for you in my car. I've got moundu I do think though If there's like a podcast where a man accidentally stumbles upon the fountain of youth It's probably Carrie drinking mountain dew Even better the elixir of life. I don't know. Maybe I should say this is the show But what I was thinking about doing was I would drink and then spin to a bucket and then do that one Ew gross and just keep look look sometimes you have to take risk for science But I need to see how far away I can get mountain dew and turn into water I feel like if you continue down that train, you're gonna drink pee eventually through a life straw I wouldn't be the first you want to go down that path All right, bear grills. Um, he walks. We have to do that Can y'all invite him as a guest, but what are you making like a yeah, of course you can be over there No, bear grills. I mean, I'll join too. I want bear grills to be honest. What do you want to prep? We'll figure it out. Um, I think we're we're gonna call a bunkering down Bunker boys is really good though. Bunker boys. That's very good. Um, bunkering down with the bunker boys I don't know. I don't know what the rules are I'm getting my my second shot on Monday, so I'll be double cheeked up You know, I don't I know that Oh, yeah, double cheeked up on a Monday afternoon. It's gonna be me I Nice. Oh god. I drink alcohol and now I'm walking so much I need to pee Oh Okay, I gained a straw quick. Yeah It's not weird if it's mine.  I don't know. Wait, how I mean, I guess how could that remind you of anything here? Okay, did we talk about did we talk about Prince Philip passing away? At all, I wasn't here. So no, I don't think we did I didn't know they were cousins until after he died I didn't know that Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah, there's that's that's a real family England. Do you think they they drink each other's peace? We're conflating two things that didn't I mean, maybe she made him at the very least right What what I would say is I don't know if they drink each other's pee I don't know that them being related had anything to do with it though Yeah, I mean, I'm not here to change. How else do you make it to like 110 in flip a car? Like he didn't be chill like well chill for three weeks or whatever. But look at here Besides Well, we can be bunker cousins and Aaron's Aaron's new podcast who drinks whose pee Um, I think I think here's who's piss is this Just by scent and taste yeah I'm thinking I'm thinking we get people yeah, we just get someone from around the office anyone we bring them in and they tell us A story about a significant impactful story about a real time in their life And then we try and craft it into a tight fight. Oh my god.  That's that's the point of this All three yeah, if I mean if all three that happened in the same day for you It's gotta be five minutes ago Do you think are are they gonna perform the type five or are we going to? We should get them to right I think they should yeah, I just think we we we need to help them craft. Yeah, give them like maybe not even we I mean, I don't know. I think we probably could help craft Well, we kind of need a show right now. So let's say me Okay, we we we we yeah I'm just saying I don't know if we should move away from who's pissed this It's it's fun to say it is I've been wanting to do a cult podcast, but who's pisses this sounds pretty good. Did y'all? Hey, this isn't we're hey Redweb, don't get threatened. We're done. Did y'all watch the cue? I started I did not finish I heard to be kind of shit There was a point in that one where I was just kind of like Oh, I see what they're doing with like the editing or how they're making stuff And then I also ended up looking up people on the wikipedia on wikipedia pages And then I kind of got spoiled as to what their conclusion was I stopped watching. Oh, so you believe wikipedia Okay, but Kind of hate Documentaries where the guys like I'm the documentarian And I'm here to tell you like he was in that whole thing, which is fine. I mean, it's not bad But also it is really weird where they're just like I don't want to spoil anything but towards the end. They're just kind of like Yeah, so this guy's almost certainly cute. Yeah, and everybody's like, all right, cool It was definitely a documentary, right? It was a documentary more I felt like more on the entertaining side rather than Primarily because I feel like you can feel the bias coming from it Which was a criticism on the doc on some website. I forget because I believe wikipedia Carrie um, but uh, they mentioned that like the doc kind of hinges on people Having or people being sensible. Let's put it that way while watching the doc They don't in in terms of the practices like what's the word I'm looking for? It's like, um Uh good practices for showing Uh extremism And the doc does not follow any of those practices at all It it kind of like launches you in there and it's more for Show rather than like actual inform informative like That makes sense. It was entertaining Um, it did take away a little bit of like how dangerous all this stuff is Because the whole thing it just made the whole thing seem a little bit like an ARG Oh Yeah, which I'm I'm like, I love ARG. So now I'm like, okay. They said And then I like several times I had to stop myself and be like This is bad This is real Stop no fun allowed This isn't this isn't nine-inch nails this new album I Was I was all in on year zero. I'm gonna kick them out right back out. Okay. I was gonna say don't wait on me But you're not going to Did you watch it Aaron? No, but I somebody was telling me about it the other day and I can't remember who but I just heard some wacky shit, but now y'all are describing it as being kind of like Fun almost so now I I mean, I will watch it if y'all recommend it Yeah, if you're in the mood, I mean I heard two different things now. So I don't know what to expect. Oh I thought it was fun. Yeah, like at the very least like I think it just you know, like like literally everything it just boils down to How much? Do you care about your time? Like do you have better stuff to do?  What do I do? Maybe give it a shot. Yeah Good notes. Good. Oh if you also have hbl max and maybe something that might be worth your time I I knew it existed. I finally started watching berry What what's that?  It's it's bill hater as an assassin Yeah, oh that berry I'm like three episodes in stepped off at like the end of season two or three And I don't know why I never didn't start watching it again because it was really good It's pretty it's pretty good Because he's it's funny, but it's also not Yeah, it does it definitely does a really good job of like the Funny serious like it it yeah, it draws its extremes very well so To summarize this is uh bill hater the actor is playing an assassin who turns into a actor comedian Yeah, uh, I like a low level theater troupe guy Yeah, like you might you might be better at uh describing it. I mean, yeah, it's just bill haters He's ex-military guy that kind of accidentally Like he he's obviously he's the kind of person that's very uh influence and stuff and like a guy kind of picks them up as he leaves the military in his like talks him into doing these this contract work Which of all like eventually leaves him being an assassin obviously and like He didn't necessarily love it or anything.    Yeah, he's terrible actor, but he found a group of people wildly that's like Like inspiring instead of like kind of putting him down instead and make him feel like he can do anything He's like oh, I want this um Somebody twist and turns it. It's I know right it's it's really there's the range There's some parts in it Especially where I feel like bill hater like this is problem.  It's like how like just people that are that talented. I'm just like Yeah, he was in because he was in it too, right? Yes, yes He was I didn't see it. Okay. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's on hbo, right? Yeah the max Not sponsored one last shill for the day Money please Yeah That dude never worked for us this whole time. I don't know why we kept shilling. I just was on it Now let's talk about showtime see if it changes Maybe for the cw we could um, yeah, we could do with them They're a little they're a little on the uh, what's the word the the lower tier range as opposed to the hbo max budget. Yeah What what are y'all gonna what are y'all gonna do with your your Tuesday afternoons now? Probably get some ruby stuff done honestly. Yeah, I probably just work Yeah, you know you guys. Yeah I have said that we are not no longer doing this for the time being but it means I get an hour of my time back Yeah, so We can if you want we can just not tell anybody and leave it on our calendars. Um That's true. I don't think any any of this is Yeah Yeah, the only producers that know about this are maggie I think laura knows too. They're both cool. I told matt. That's true. They're cool. Yeah, they're cool Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Matt doesn't remember laura and maggie are cool. So I'll see you next tuesday and five For the rest of forever Just don't look at the thumbnail on the website. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. It's fine. It's fine. We'll just cover it up We'll keep posting new episodes, but it'll just Oh, I have a little note If you want to circle back to that, um I I know we pitched the show as talking about Creative things and like our creative process. Yeah, I don't know about you guys, but I thoroughly Enjoy talking about that even though it was kind of hard to find topics occasionally Yeah, maybe kind of goes back into that niche topic That sam was mentioning but uh Yeah, I mean I do like the um the anecdotes and the Jokes and stuff, but if we needed that niche, I I do I did like what we had at the start I agree. Yeah, you're not wrong.  It's true. I get oh man. I had to make like an instagram FAQ recently because I kept getting so many dms about like really I mean the same questions over and over That was like, all right. I I can't answer these anymore photoshop. Do you use? Do you recommend a brush pack? Oh my Questions I put in there. I would ask that. Yeah What version do you use well for a long time?  Hey, I was out for the last two weeks What did they they're charging people to cancel now? Oh, that's always been a thing What yeah, yeah people just Okay, I like I hate adobe as much as the next person but that like fine text is like always been there like Well, it wasn't always a plan though. It wasn't like that's why I like cs1 or like this Uh, creative suite for so long.  All right. I just had no idea.  Well got him wordplay. They can't clap back here still I mean, that's why so many artists are switching to like clip studio and um pro create a lot more affordable Uh, I don't even think pro create has a subscription. So no Yeah, you can you can probably get premium, but it otherwise pro create is free and the premium stuff probably has just more like additional Features. Yeah. Get get clip studio pain. Okay. So I I I got the trial. I opened the program and I was overwhelmed by the amount of like ui I'm like, so I don't know. I want to give it a shot, but I'm I'm you can probably find like a specific youtube tutorial that's like how to like photoshop to Clip studio like how if I can like I will definitely make the switch Oh, yeah 100 there is um The big thing that I I will say for clip studio paint that I Photoshop has it and it's totally fine.  This is so easy one um and then two is Uh, understanding that the clip studio paint keyboard shortcuts ui is Very easy to finagle with um And that is I think one of the bigger things because as much as like the ui for clip studio paint is a little like intimidating I Still think it's it's supposed to be a photoshop Uh, what's the word comp competitor for a reason? Yeah, um because a lot of it is still one to one So okay, as long as you maybe you can exit out of the windows. Okay. Oh, that's around. Oh, I'll do it for you Just for me I feel like I'm at that. Oh, sorry. Go ahead and carry. I was guys like do y'all do y'all Do y'all think you can switch like so much of this industry is like, oh, this is the software we use. Yeah that's Like I know I mean I want it to be the case Yeah, like in the office Like we're definitely still using photoshop, and I'm pretty sure like every animation game studio is also still using Photoshop for the most part Yeah, clip studio does have uh, does support photoshop documents Um, the big thing that you will probably notice though Is that when you try to open like a clip studio photoshop doc with like certain blending options on layers and vice versa It might not read one to one and that's basically adobe.  So it's a little It's it's easy. Let's put it that way or uh, it's there As long as you can like foolproof it. Um, right And I think clip studio pain is starting to get cmyk because that's the other thing that photoshop has is that they actually had cmyk And that is largely used for print. So That's also something to think about as well At least the uh subscription for photoshop is a little cheaper. Oh, yeah.  I just know it's better I just know it better I work because I worked in a hardcore for years. I really do think like Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's just about really I think key binds is a huge part. That's why like uh Which premier has an option where it's just like hey Just please change this the final cut hotkeys and it just like changes the entire hockey list just because they know People are gonna have to come that way eventually and they want them to and so it makes it easy So it's like every program should just have like a hey, here's all the hotkeys to the popular one Just in case you don't want to learn a new because I don't want to learn a new bunch of hotkeys like too old Like blender has that for or blender has like a Maya hotkey set up Which is really nice. So blender is definitely like I'm stubborn I refuse to do that Because I'm like If I'm switching to software, then I need like what if they add new hotkeys and I need to use those You know, it's like cheating. I don't know But then I also haven't learned uh all these other software. So maybe I should just do it. Yeah Yeah, I'm like just so like in grain with photoshop Like even if clip studio is like a better deal and like could be set up to match photoshop I think I'm just like old and stubborn at this point And I I just don't I'm afraid to make a switch. So But knowing all of that is uh Maybe that'll help me uh get my foot in the door Yeah, maybe if you if you can if you want to I'm not gonna push back paper Let's pencil and paper just run it all back to the stone age. Let's give me Yeah I um, I want to know Yeah, go ahead Issa. I I wanted to say just in relation to um us having notes for I have notes Can we turn this around too? Does that mean I have notes needed shortcuts for us? Do we need to be more of a kind of um Cardboard cut out personality and that's how people will relate to us and then we can they can discover our true intentions That's a meta note. I like your meta note. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you I do think it is fun to also the brand we fell under which was I think poorly communicated Was select all which we all have shirts of as well. Um Which is a hotkey um One of the hottest which is a good hotkey Which which was where I was going earlier. What's your favorite hotkey song? Um Yeah I'm really thinking about this. Hang on. I gotta look at the keyboard. I have one. I have one. Yeah. Um, so this is specifically for uh tune boom Um, and I ended up just converting it to like all the other programs that I use um use The numbers one and two above the q and w use them for zoom in and zoom out your life will change forever Or like instead of like control plus and minus Yes, yes, because And I learned this from animator q boom lee um on youtube If you can shorten all of your shortcuts to just be like try to isolate it on your left hand as possible Like as much as possible and then just use that range of the keyboard You will work so much faster Um, that's my hot tip. I have I have a confession I'm really bad at using hotkeys like I've been using photoshop since maybe I was like 11 or 12 So I'm just so In the habit of going to each menu, but I know where everything is so I feel like I'm pretty fast at it Uh, but I do I do use the good old control z and control s for save um And alt in photoshop is like the eyedropper tool and those are like the ones I use the most often Control shift s and photoshop is like on my top 10 for sure Constantly, but yeah save as because I use it because I work in psd's and need to save to jpegs and pngs for credits and thumbnails and shit So I use it Every day because i'm almost never saving I work in psds for like everything and never save in psd. So it's like yeah control shift s is like all the time on computer I played my first mmo. It was called planet side and uh It was like a shooter and there's like this like persistent world and and you would like you had three armies and you would try and conquer bases and I was 12 and uh, I did it played with like the voice server and I played with like a lot of people uh, and uh, but I was really nerve wracking because they're always older and then uh One time in the middle of like a really important mission I asked how to do something and somebody said just use alt f4 and then I pushed it and it closed my game and I cried So that's at least favorite Also, uh, I think it's Is it hang on is it like how we have to like check when your favorite and you don't know it Windows it's my new favorite windows shift s on windows is the new screenshot one I'm using windows shift s all the time. Um Also, what I've started using a lot recently windows v Oh, yeah, it brings up your whole clipboard. So like the last like 20 games you've copied. Yeah, you have access to all It's a banger. Yeah, this is gonna close our be careful. You might find something you wanted to bury Oh, I don't have my history turned on that's unfortunate. Yeah, maybe maybe this is it y'all. I have hot yeah The new podcast Oh my god, that's a good one this has been the most entertaining five minutes of my life I I do have a couple other quick ones that have come up. Um Issa me Mario where we play a different Mario game with ease every week. I like it Oh, you're just giving us pictures for new shows now It's about 20 episodes, but that's about how many That's double life Yeah, it's such a good idea Sam.  I like it. Issa gets the mario. I get the p-podcast Yeah, and I'll drink water down my undo Yeah, whose business this oh my god. Oh my god.  What other ideas do you have Sam, please? uh, I mean I really I like you said you said me Issa me mario. It's very good. That's really the banger. Uh, we can go out on that one. That's fine. Yeah I don't know. I said whether like I was just taking a word play once I don't know what to win and to carry like but they're not as strong as issa me mario Issa Kai which is which I know we kind of issa Kai. Oh, I think that'll be fun Issa, put issa in fantasy worlds and sing what happens. Yeah Yeah, sure. Sure. Um issa pizza. I visited different pizza joint every week. Um If you need a co-host for that, let me know I would like some pizza always open always open. Yeah. Hey, no, okay that one. Yep Oh, that's right I can't wait to jam some pizza in my face. Thanks for being always open That should be the opening for that. Yeah I I a while ago tried to get him to let us do just Bad versions of everybody else's podcast like I wanted to do always closed on topic Like and just like run through it and do because I think it'd be fun every week to do a different podcast Yeah, yeah, just to like yeah, like, you know, you can just and it doesn't even have to be on like in our brand Like we can I don't care, you know So we do we do blue web or blue mesh like you mentioned before Maybe we've accidentally been doing that and that's why this didn't work out It's all it's all coming together. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe. Hey, let's got wings. I'll try anything. We got a set apparently What's um, um, what would be the opposite of f face? Um Um fart butt I don't know if it's the opposite. I do like the way that it sounds f face. Okay, I got it. What Sam farp No, I didn't I didn't yeah, I didn't I was like I couldn't think of what f face I was thinking of like emojis or something. I thought you were talking like some weird like twitched pog champ stuff Poggies, um My doggies This is like something, uh Like a politician would say to try and like relate to the No, I'm thinking more of like a Bernie Sanders Y'all saw that clip where Chuckie each cheese said poggers.   We should have here doing stuff. We should ask Eric about that I mean it was him. He didn't want me to tell you but it was him Okay, okay. I was just that makes sense. He's he's really leaning into the furry thing right now I think so Is it is that what it's going on?   No, he says true Well, you know what next week we can have Eric on and talk about it. Oh, yeah, that's true Oh, we got one problem with that Gary One big little problem just put the put the calendar bite on and see what happens Um, yeah, well talking about time that is actually What? Can't believe it our last episode of The last episode We don't have a we don't have to get out of anyone's way So before we leave to any of y'all have final notes You want to give about the show or final things you want to say do you want to send it off in a way? Or do you just want to say goodbye? Thank you for watching because I'm curious what chat has but that might be That might take another like 20 minutes or something It could wrap it as possible Yeah, I want Chad to give us notes.  Why do you bring that up so early? I don't care about their notes really invested in it's too late for that Sam had a note for Chad already which was should have gone one or two more Look, no, I mean, you know I Shows coming up. It's all good. I mean, we're it's not like we're not fired I mean, maybe if somebody watches this episode we'll find out Oh, we're here. We're so mean stuff is just this exact show and there's our nation's not happening We're all lucky enough to be in a position where like Good luck. You can't fire any of us Sam that sounds like uh, that sounds like a challenge, but it's good. It's gonna be way harder for you to have a good day I mean that's hat like all of us are in high demand So yeah I'm on some like it's like I have a perfect point where uh Like a couple drinks in Like the imposter syndrome effects will like wear away and I'm like, wait, I do too much. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah So that's what you're saying. That's the cure for imposter syndrome because that's what I've been feeling a lot lately drunk Yeah Here's imposter syndrome is the weirdest shit ever because I do this all the time I was like somebody would be like like I'll ask myself like do I know how to do that? I'm like, yeah, I know how to do it. I'm like, can you do it?  It will look like All right, we got one more show to the list Erin teaches y'all how to draw. Yeah, it's true. It's true I'm down. Yeah. There we go. That's true I remember I remember this uh desire of carries. I'd be fine. I've been I've been taking lessons See in the chat Mohawk says the notes were the friends who made along I think that's a good final note. Thanks everybody. We love you. We'll see you somewhere Bye