Hello, friends, and thanks for hanging out with us here on the market report today. I'm your host, Benton, and we are joined again by Risen experts, Marcel Peckman and Yash Ugoa. Yash Ugoa is a financial analyst who has been covering cryptocurrency industry since 2014, and Marcel Peckman applies his 17 years of experience trading derivatives options and futures to the crypto derivatives markets. Guys, a little bit of a reflally, but things seem to be simmering down a little bit. What's going on this week? How are we feeling Marcel and Yash Ugoa? Welcome to the show. Thanks, Benton. Marcel, I think you're muted there. What I was saying to no one was that the longer we stay above $22,000, the better, because we need confidence. Everybody was fearing that a global crash would take Bitcoin down to $14,000 or $12,000 after Celsius, 3AC, and so many lenders in the space went bankrupt, and even Tehaluna, a top 10 coin, vanished from the industry. Everybody was fearing the worst. Now that this storm has passed by, it's been like three months, four months since it started, people are starting to get more confidence, but it's not going to end. It's not going to happen overnight. So if we stay maybe other weeks, even if it goes down to $21,000 or it's here down to $1.4,000, it doesn't matter. We just need to stick to some ground so to get support, and people will get more confidence and we'll go back to higher prices. And we'll definitely be getting into some of those insights here later on the show, so make sure you stick around. Yashu, welcome back. Glad to have you here. I know you are one of our favorite analysts to have on the show. So what's going on? How are you feeling about the market this week? First, I would like to thank Academy for this award. The last week has been more about Ethereum than Bitcoin to me. I have just spent all this time trying to understand what the fork is happening. And yeah, so Bitcoin has been pretty boring to me, to be honest. It might seem like one of those rare weeks happened to Bitcoin at all. So I'll be speaking more about Ethereum this time. And pretty excited to speak about it. And thank you for those nice words spent it. All the way, bro. Yeah. Well, we have the panel of experts here to answer all of your questions. So make sure today drop your questions in the chat. We're going to be looking at those and making sure that we get to every single one of them. We want to send out a big thank you to everyone that is tuning in from around the globe. Tell us where you are tuning in from today. We're also giving away a one month subscription of Markets Pro, which is $100 value. We're going to show you the two tokens that you should have been watching if you would have had the Markets Pro platform. So make sure you drop your Twitter handle in the chat today, as we're going to be giving away that one month subscription at the end of the show. Make sure you go ahead and slam the like and subscribe button to coin telegraph here on YouTube. You can find the mark report here every Tuesday, 12 PM Eastern. So we got first things to go through today is what is the crypto Twitter space talking about?  So Danilo, let's go ahead and run it back. So another big week for crypto hacks included traditional companies getting involved, CZ traveling around the world doing God's work, introducing everyone to crypto. So always good to see what crypto Twitter is up to this week. But before we get into some of the biggest headlines this week, we got some memes for you guys. So let's go ahead and jump into what we got for memes this week, Adrian and Danilo before we improve. That's how fine. That's how fine. That's my shoes. That's great. That's Vitalik. I think so. Yeah. He told me classic memes. I bet the thinking is about the moon. I wonder if there'll be a new hack when I wake up. That's about right. A lot of news about hacks in the last couple of weeks. Yeah. It's about right with the boats, not a yacht. Nobody's driving their Lambos around. No more assets in Solano. Well, it's right. Why not majority assets? Yeah. Sad to see the phantom hack last week. That was crazy. We're going to get into that a little bit later, but good meme nonetheless. All right. I see Tricrypto is smashing the subscribe button. Love to see it again. Thanks for everyone that is tuning in. Make sure you have your questions ready to go for Marcel and Yashu, our resident experts here for the Mark Report. They're here to give you their insights and give you that information you can't find anywhere else on the internet. I know we have some big, big headlines to get into this week. We're going to be talking Bitcoin, Ethereum, Tornado Cash, US regulating sanctions on Tornado Cash. What does that mean? If you were a user on there and what are the implications for crypto markets? Let's go ahead and jump into our first article, though, today. So Danila, if you want to go ahead and pull up this article here, headlines reading Bitcoin realized price bands form key resistance as bulls lose 24K. We saw a little rally last week all the way up to 24K, but we came back down to earth. First things here that I want to touch on is Marcel or Yashu, what is a realized price band and why is this so important? The realized price as far as no, it concerns not only about the last trade, but the last time the wallets, the addresses moved the coins. So if you're a holder for a long term and you didn't trade at 23K or 24K, you realize price is lower. But we're talking about right now in technical analysis, means the range, the volatility over the past, I don't know, one or two weeks. So a tighter range when the price is not oscillating a lot, which was the what happened over the past days indicates, it tells me that investors are on a wait and see mode. This is especially true when the volumes are going down. So their last market participants willing to impose their trends either up or down. So that's not necessarily bearish as long as there's a support, either if it's 22K or 21K. So if it holds at support level, it's not bad. Awesome. And Yashu, quick question for you while we're looking at this chart from the article here. Is it concerning to you that that bulls kind of got got beaten up by the bears a little bit at 24K? Or is this kind of the normal volatility range that we're in right now? See, consolidation simply means that people are indecisive about the next trend. So we've just created, you know, make believe psychological resistance support levels. So just to make sure that we trade within that small range, it does not reflect any long term opinion. But yeah, when price started consolidating in a very tight pattern, like, you know, the way that the volume's going down, it simply means that people are in a wait and watch approach and most of them are retail traders. They really want some big way to come in and decide the trend for them. And as what what it seems like, even whales are confused about where the market would go next, because we all are watching the macro factors. It's something else that I want to point out from the article here that is that the writer mentioned something about how the Chinese CSI 300 has been behaving in front running the S&P 500. So kind of zooming out from the macro level real quick. Is this something that you all take into account when you're looking at assessing markets? Marcel, I'll let you jump in here first and kind of share your thoughts about what BTC fuel tweeted out in this article here. Yeah, first of all, there's always some luck factor, some random factor that causes Chinese stocks or Chinese bond markets move ahead or Bitcoin or the other way around. So some of these correlations stands for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, but then it vanishes. But what we've seen as a global trend over the past couple of months is that, yes, Chinese, especially the tech sector, have been moving up or down ahead of the broader S&P market. And during the weekends, for instance, where the stock market doesn't trade, Bitcoin has been doing an excellent proxy to understand what the markets will be moving. But that doesn't mean that this correlation will persist for the next couple of weeks or the next couple of months. But yes, that's what the chart is showing us. Chinese stocks have been moving ahead of S&P markets, which has been driving Bitcoin as a sector, as an industry. In Yashu, I want to ask you while we're kind of on this topic at the macro level, we saw the jobs report come out this last week for the U.S. It was surprisingly strong numbers. Did this play into the effect of the recent rally over the last week? And what are your kind of thoughts on the most recent child report? I could agree that Bitcoin was mainly again dealing with the tech stocks in that aspect. Because we have also, the jobs report are also co-signing with the earning results. That have been very depressive compared to the previous quarters. And when we look at this poor numbers, even when the stocks rally, it simply shows that people are simply buying a small dip and waiting to sell at some other point. So I think this again is a Bia market rally. Having said that, your question was about the job increase. So a job increase is also raised negatively on Bitcoin because it simply means that it gives federal reserve more reasons, more leverage to continue their tightening. Because we have heard them from the very beginning that jobs are the most important metric for them before they really take a decision on rate hikes. So this gives them enough confidence to really continue. And while we are at it, while we are at it, I think we have reacted already negatively to these events and Bitcoin could keep reacting to it. So this short term rally actually does not matter, even in tech stocks or even Bitcoin. All right. You heard it from Yashu here first, folks. Well, speaking of rallies, I do want to jump into our next article this week about Ethereum here. So institutions flocking to Ethereum for seven straight weeks as merge nears. One of the big excerpts from this article was actually a quote from Vitalik himself. And I want to kind of read this. So once the merge actually happens, then I expect morale is going to go way up. I basically expect that the merge is going to not be priced in by which I mean, not even just market terms, but even psychological and narrative terms and narrative terms. I think it's not going to be priced in pretty much until after it happens. So what is your take here on Ethereum? I know more cells are going to be diving into the actual fundamentals here. But do you agree with Vitalik? Is this not priced in yet? Are people buying this rumor looking to sell the news when September 19th rolls around? I'll start with you, Marcelle. First of all, all these big events that we know there's a set date, it's going to be mid September, the merge is happening and the inflation is going to be cut and etc. Everybody is watching the same indicator, the same date. So yeah, it's normal to pricing earlier of the event. So it's normal for the stock or the asset to go up and when the news eventually comes out, maybe even the day before, two days before, it starts to fade away, to go down because people already bought on that expectation. So my initial thought is markets are not dumb. There's a lot of smart money, the FTX guys and some other arbitrage traders. So I don't think there's free money out there. People have been buying Ethereum, have been building up positions, but as we get closer to the date, they're going to sell their positions. And Yashu, where do you stand on this? And do you agree with Vitalik that things are not priced in yet? I think what Vitalik is trying to say that the merge will grow the entire ecosystem like two-fold or three-fold because we are trying to make Ethereum more usable for the new projects out there. And this is also about the new players emerging in the market. So Ethereum is simply trying to make it stuff clear that once we do it, we're going to be the number one player. You cannot beat us. And what it simply means, and I'm just talking about the relative organic demand for Ethereum, because to get into the Ethereum system, you have to demand Ethereum. That is like the native currency. So what he's really trying to say, he's just trying to predict this really the best scenario in which everything goes smoothly, the merge is there, and we have further folks, further updates after the merge. So he's just anticipating that they will be in a traction for Ethereum, which in turn would turn into a more demand for Ethereum. And I think even traders right now, I'm not saying all of them, I would agree with Marcel that many people just get into the short term they want to buy the rumor and sell the news. But the real investors who really see Ethereum surpassing its own expectations, I think they are the ones who will stay behind. So Ethereum is in a very strong position in the long run, whether or not we see federal hikes or hell, but we will see a good adoption there if this goes smoothly. I really am rooting for Ethereum to execute on everything that they planned out, because the world would be a better place with lower gas fees and faster transactions approved of stake. So I'm hoping that this event on the 19th is just the start of something good, but we will see how the market reacts in the short term here. You heard the great insights from Marcel and Yashu. So folks, if you're watching at home today, I won't remind you drop your questions in the chat. While we are cruising through some of the biggest headlines from this week, because next what we have is the tornado getting sanctioned by the U.S. What does this mean? Tornado cash. If you've used this, what is this? This is a mixer. And so circle freezes. This is the U.S. D.C. issue where circle freezes blacklisted tornado cash smart contract addresses. One of the things that I also want to pull up real quick while I have this is a what I thought was pretty interesting was the quarterly illicit. I need to unshare here. I will pull that up in just a second here. But while we're waiting, the thing I thought was interesting was the most illicit wall addresses that we're using tornado cash were actually from North Korea. And so when you kind of pull up the charts, it'll show you that. But I'm curious to hear what is the greater impact of U.S. D.C. freezing and blacklisting wallet addresses and then the U.S. sanctioning tornado cash as a whole. I'll start with you, Yashu. The entity they're pretty much falling the poor view of all the local regulators. And that's why it's happened. So if there is any hacker out there and they want to use any American based services, yeah, they are pretty much, you know, in a pickle with the Germans there. So it's like using a bank in a way. I personally, on an honesty level, I'm not a North Korean supporter and I'm pretty sure nobody is. So I'm quite happy with this move. But on the deeper level, I think it's also surprising that defy apps can also get sanctioned once it rely too much on the system. So this also poses a very big challenge for many apps that will follow later. And I'm pretty sure that everybody has done some really shady stuff behind the scenes. So it's simply a message from the government that doesn't matter that you call yourself decentralized. We're going to find you. We're going to ban you. You're going to make sure that you're not able to work in America. That's all, I guess. Barso. Yeah. What's your thoughts here? And will there be any kind of ripple effect in the greater crypto ecosystem? Is this ultimately a good thing or a bad thing that has happened? Benton, I think regulation is always a good thing because if your system, your coin, or your application is decentralized, doesn't depend on a single server or a single website. If it's effectively decentralized, no matter what the government's intentions are, they will not be able to ban it. And even if they ban a single landing page, you can create a web tree version or you can create another like the pirate bay, which has multiple sites pointing to different IPs. So the government will never be able to blacklist or ban blockchain addresses. It simply doesn't work. And for example, I live in Brazil. United States government can do and tell whatever they want. But for now, they don't have any power over me. So when you give those tools of blockchain and decentralized applications on the internet, I think people will finally understand that government doesn't have control over that. So I think it's a good thing that they start to blacklist some address. But in the end, the impact is zero. Very good. And Danila, if you wouldn't mind just pulling up my screen real quick. I wanted to highlight a chart that quarterly illicit cryptocurrency received by mixers by source. And so you can see here on the far right side Q2 of 2022, North Korea based cyber criminals groups, looks like the second largest group was stolen funds. So these mixing dApps or protocols seem to be used for a lot of illicit activities, none the least. And so you can see why the US is trying to maybe clamp down and crack down on some of these at least within their border. But what will be the ultimate effect? Time will tell. Yes. So that is our greatest headlines for this week, including the tornado cash hack. We're going to be getting into some of the Bitcoin and Ethereum specifics this week, some of the good nuggets of news that you want to hear from Marcel. And Yashu is also going to provide some of his analysis. But first, we have some crypto tips for you to get into this week. So let's go ahead and jump into that next. All right, folks, you cannot buy the dips if you have all your money invested already. The point should be obvious, but it bears repeating over and over. It is tempting to go all in, but that limits your options. Consider always having some funds on the side to buy an unforeseen downturn. Even if you want to go all in on crypto, leave yourself a little money on the side just in case. If you have an all in and the price takes a hard downturn, it takes lots of options off the table. It's hard to go all in when a coin goes down 60 to 80% over the course of weeks or months. But sometimes they go down even more than that. And it is wise to always prepare for the worst case. Some folks crypto tape of this week is keep some dry powder on the sidelines. You never know when we're going to go down lower. And when we do go lower, you want to be able to get in at those levels. And that's your crypto tips for this week. All right. And I see the chat is lighting up here. So if you have questions, go ahead and drop them in here. But I know Marcel is going to give us his expert insights. So make sure you stay tuned because he's going to give you the goods about Bitcoin and Ethereum this week. And Yashu is going to be able to give his insights as well. So Marcel, feel free to take it away. Well, Benton, first of all, you should have given me that tip of not going all in six months ago, not today. Now it's too late. But so moving on. Today, we're going to cover an article that I posted yesterday on Cointelegraph about the Federal Reserve reverse repo, which recently touched $2.3 trillion and now time high.  Typing, which means it's withdrawing stimulus from the markets. So raising interest rates and scaling back their debt assets purchase program. Their goal, reduce inflation. The problem is what caused inflation in the first place? So most analysts will say money printing. So that's the issue. But that's not entirely true. The central bank may issue more treasurers or let financial institutions lend money regardless of their reserves. So injecting more money in the system. Yes. But does that mean that those companies, banks, families, mutual funds will be buying products, services, buying stocks, or even hiring more stuff? It doesn't mean so. So what is the safest option when you have a lot of cash available? Overnight interest rates. You lend money to the Federal Reserve and get paid for that. That's precisely what's happened over the past 12 months. Danilo, I want to share my screen here. So here we have Federal Reserve repo, which is $2.3 trillion. The Federal Reserve will do whatever it takes to combat inflation. That's what they're saying. Financial institutions have a cash abundance issue. And that's the point I want to get. So this is the chart that I want to show you. And you can see that the institutions had $400 billion parked at the Federal Reserve. So lending to the Federal Reserve about a year ago, in 2021. Right now, the number of crude stands at $2.3 trillion. So that's an all-time high. And what's the Federal Reserve paying those guys for the deposits? Two and a half percent per year. So managers are only to allocate capital on lending products or taking counterpart to risk. Meanwhile, the inflation is running at 8%. Thank you, Danilo. So in short, those guys are paying a 60% per year tax. So no matter how absurd this is, it means that those guys are waiting from some crisis or some market crashes. So they don't have what to do with the money right now. It's just sitting over there. But eventually the Federal Reserve would stop this tightening movement. So no longer raising interest rates. And investors would no longer fear a crisis or a market crisis. And this money will flow to longer-term instruments. Yeah, sure. Most of these $2.3 trillion, we go to dead low risk assets. But even if 0.2% of this money flow into Bitcoin, it means $4.6 billion. So $4.6 billion entering Bitcoin. That's bigger than what micro-strategy holds right now. Wow. Real quick question while we're kind of talking about the Federal repurchase agreement stuff. You saw the US pass a bill this last week for nearly $300 billion. Is that going to help inflation, hurt inflation? I guess I'm curious to know a little bit about that as well. Broadly speaking, the more stimulus and packages that they send, no matter if it's for health, if it's for inflation, if it's for Ukraine, if it's for COVID, it doesn't matter what the money is going. The more money that's in the system, the higher the inflation will go. So if they're trying to tank down inflation to hold down inflation, it's... Interesting. All right. And Yashu, I know you have some thoughts to share in some of your analysis while we're here talking about the impacts of the Federal Reserve on Bitcoin. I am very curious to hear what you have to say with some of your analysis this week. So feel free to jump in here. Thank you, mate. I would first like to really thank Marcel for bringing out this amazing analysis, because I had not read the article. There was the first time I'm listening about it. Pretty much actually, I'm very happy to hear that because it pretty much matches with the long-term thing I always talk about, that we really have to look at a long-term game in Bitcoin when it really is about investing. It cannot be an asset. You can simply hold for a day and just sell out. But unfortunately, what I bring right now is a long short of analysis. So I just want to say that despite all these amazing predictions, we are still in a beer market. The reason is because we have already confirmed that the US GDP, it's already down like two quarters in a row, which makes it a technical recession. And on the top of that, we have good news, which is very rare. But like we discussed, the jobs have increased by 528,000 in July. And now it is at the pre-pandemic level. And at the same time, we are looking at wages. The report has come out that the wages of Americans, they have grown by 5.2%. So in a way, we are trying to match inflation by raising the wages. So I think it's still a good news for everyday common jobs in America. But at the same time, we have some alerts. There are some economic indicators that show us very different pictures that is called job openings because they have been declining in the last six months. The weekly jobless claims, for example, they are increasing. So it simply shows that while we have a job increase at the same time, the jobless claims are also going up. So these things, they are quite in contrarian indicators to each other. But we really have to see that we are still in a technical recession. Again, there is one thing I also like to point out because the jobs are increasing, it gives, like I said, fit enough leverage to just continue with their hawkish plan.  And that was the core reason why we entered a beer market thing. So I personally think that for this year, we will look at more losses in the Bitcoin and Ethereum market as well. And I would like to actually illustrate that with a chart as well. So as you can see guys, this chart is showing, we are looking at this latest rebound right now. From around 17, 800 to about 23,000, we have this 38% rebound, but it is a very small rebound. So we cannot actually call it a bottom because we have seen similar beer market rallies in the January and March sessions, like 46%. And I'll take you back to one of the biggest beer markets in Bitcoin history was in 2018, we actually saw a 100% rally here. From this, I mean, we have been noticing these big, big rallies, but despite getting these amazing upside corrections, we are going down, we are going down all the time because there is a very big fundamental factor at play. Back then, it was supposed to be the ICO bubble burst. But right now we are looking at a macro bubble burst, the macro bubble created by the unlimited money injection by the Fed and other central banks from around the world. So as long as that is not done, we are not looking at any kind of stoppage from this thing to fall down. On the top of that, you might see this blue curve, which is 200 exponential moving average on a weekly chart. This thing I've already like repeated many times that this has been an incredible support to call out bottoms, but this time in this beer market, the bottom angle simply broke and it just fell down. And right now it is trying to reclaim it as resistance. And as long as I think we stay below the psychological resistance, our probability to go down is very high. So yes, right now we are looking at this, this is near $26,500. So yes, I can see, you know, Bitcoin going to 26,000, but whether it would continue from there, I don't think so. I'll stop the screen. Thank you. So where will Bitcoin continue to range in your opinion? Let's say for the next six months and will it be any major catalyst that you're seeing that could potentially push it up beyond 28K? I would go with what Marcel said. Yes, there has to be a bottom and my personal, whatever I think is bottom is around $10,000 because in the, we will see rate hikes in September, that is the economic projection is like they will game base the interest rate by 75 PPS. So it will keep happening. But, you know, as I had already mentioned that I am personally waiting for the midterm election to come by and that can be a very big game changer because the polling actually shows that Joe Biden can lose this election, which is why we are looking at this inflation bill stunt. But eventually because of all the, you know, problem that is happening economically and in the world and his ratings are low, a small midterm loss election can give Joe Biden a reason to restart quantitative easing. You know, ask the Fed to just calm down on the rate hike plans because, like I said, we are in a technical recession and it's not going to show right now. It's a very gradual process, maybe in the next 12 months we'll realize it, but we will realize it. But while we're on the topic of recession, you heard folks like Kathy Wood come out, Elon Musk come out and say they're expecting a mild recession. Sometimes it's really hard to know if you're in a recession until you're able to look back and say, hey, that was a recession. What is your take? Is this thing as mild as Kathy Wood is saying or Elon is saying? Or could this become even worse than we could expect? First of all, I'm a very small man, Ms. Kathy Wood and, you know, and Elon Musk. Thank you for, you know, bringing out your side, but yes, you are in losses right now. Look at how hard is performing. You have overlaid with yourself. Am I talking directly to them? They're going to kill me. I know, but you are in losses. You really want this to end. I can't stand. But the fact remains, you know, it's the same because it's a very turbulent time. We have a war in Eastern Europe going on, which can lead to a bigger recession, a big inflation problem in entire Europe. The winter is coming, as they say, right? I mean, one of the Germany's leading public companies, they had to call bankruptcy. And now they are being bailed out. China is going through real estate implosion right now. There are bad news everywhere. And how can you say that? We're going to just be fine.  Yeah, we'll be fine. But yeah, I think I have overspoken about this, but you know, you know, you get the zeal of it, but I'm trying to say, how can you say that there's not, there's not going to be a recession? Yeah, looking at layoffs. Marshall, what's your take here? Are Elon and Kathy Wood just trying to protect themselves or their, their companies in hope for a mild recession? Or do you think this, this, the bottom is not in and things could potentially get worse? Yeah, I kind of agree with that show here. If your company, if your investment is on the line, you're never going to go on national television and say, hey, guys, things are much worse than expected. Prepare for a lot of big crisis because a single mention, a single speech from a guy like Elon Musk who drive the markets down. So I think they're trying to downplay what's happening here. But the focus right now, in my opinion, should be housing, especially in China sector. Because if housing prices go down, then the population will have more kids to pay their value of the house will go down and the money that they can withdraw on the bank based on their holdings goes lower. So it can start a crisis similar to what we've seen past in 2008. So right now I think the focus should be housing price. We see Shalom saying, wars are inflationary, famines are inflationary, plagues are inflationary. So we appreciate you sharing your thoughts there. And Yashu, I know you have some stuff to cover about Ethereum this week and we've talked about buying the rumor, but I'm curious to see if you might have any charts or any other thoughts that you'd like to share with us about Ethereum while we're on the topic this week. Well, Ethereum charts are quite beautiful. Actually, I'll show you just in about a minute. But okay, let me find it out. Sharing screen, chrome and share, guys. So I'm just, I hope you're going to see this. Okay. So Ethereum has been vastly outperforming, outperforming Bitcoin. And the best thing about it right now, sorry. I'll just reload this shot again. Yeah, give me a sec guys. EthuSD, Binance. Yeah. So we are back here. Like you can see that Ethereum technically has actually crossed over its 200 EMA, the same resistance level that is capping Bitcoins upside attempts. It's entire bullish thesis. Ethereum is already like trading around it. It's already up there. And of course, it's because of the merge, because of all the euphoria surrounding this, you know, major switch to proof of stake. But there's one more thing I really, really like to talk about are Ethereum folks, guys. So first I'm going to stop this chart because it's more like a global thing. So what's, what's really happening right now, because we have a new narrative on the top of the merge narrative that the merge can lead to the creation of multiple Ethereum blockchains. Some, I remember I think Gallows Capital, a crypto fund, they did a poll last week and 33% people, they agreed that there will be a fork, there will be a new chain that will be a POW version of the current Ethereum blockchain while they go ahead with their POWs. So as we have seen that, you know, people want those free tokens. What's really happening is that, you know, people are collecting the Ethereum, accumulating Ethereum, so that by the time they can be a potential fork, they can get this new eth POW token as well. So it's like a free money for them. And why this narrative is picking so much momentum. I mean, look at the last three days, guys, this token does not exist now. I mean, there's no fork, but we are looking at Bitmix, we are looking at Polonyx, these crypto exchanges, they have already started listing futures and spot trading. So basically what does not exist, you can actually trade it for somebody that exists like USDT or maybe Ethereum. And, you know, Vitalik Bitrain in one of the conferences recently even said that many people with exchanges they are trying to encash on this opportunity.  Why? Because people want free tokens, they want those airdrop tokens. But I cannot even explain that once we are past the merge, once we are through it, there can be a very big, you know, downside. I'm expecting 20 to 25%. I mean, of course, in addition to all the macroeconomic factors, but we have to see, you know, sell the news, be a run in the future. But yes, up to the merge, I'm pretty bullish about this Ethereum. That's all guys. All right, very good. Well, we appreciate both of you sharing your insights to Bitcoin and Ethereum and what's going on out there in the world today. One quick question from the chat. I see Catherine Rhodes, thanks for submitting your question. She says, I know you don't give financial advice, but hypothetically, if you had some fresh fiat to invest, where would you put it? Is there any particular market segment or niche or maybe a basket of cryptos that you might be looking at right now? I'll start with Yashu first. Oh, well, I don't actually trade like that personally, but because my timeframe for investment is actually in here. So I don't know if I can give you any near them advice. Sorry for that. But yes, if you are talking about a near, I would say that you can stay connected to Ethereum. You can stay connected to Bitcoin and even Solana, despite all the problems. I mean, Solana, because of all the negativity around it and what can be their efforts to really calm it down by introducing new features, I think Solana is still undervalued. So I would recommend that if you have some daughter to spare, you can actually invest in these currencies for one year. That's my other financial advice again. Yeah, none of which is as one age, but go ahead, Marcel. Exactly. And first of all, the person needs to understand if they're able to take 40% drawdown, if markets continue to tank, if that's not what's up to them, if they think, you know, crypto is too much risk for me, just stay away, go for stocks, go for bonds, there's an infinitive, there's even real estate investments. But if you think, yes, I can handle a 40, 50% drop from here. And if you're new to crypto markets, I'll stick with Bitcoin. Normally, I would say 70% Bitcoin, 30% Ethereum, but considering what's happening on Ethereum right now, and if you're new to crypto currency, I would say stick to Bitcoin. But if you cannot handle a 40, 50% drop from here, stay away. Choose another investment. All right. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts there. And I know Yashu had brought up Solana. And there has been some interesting things happening over in that ecosystem that we're going to tackle today. We saw Nomad Bridge fall prey to exploits, losing millions. But then I just read a headline that White Hat hackers recovered 30 million of the funds, which is great news to hear. Solana-based wallet, Phantom, White Hat hacked as well last week. So what is going on with this ecosystem right now? And I know Yashu, you said that you feel it is undervalued. But what, I guess I'm curious to know first, what makes Solana so susceptible to hacks? Because it was never hacked? Who's saying that? Okay, Marcel, why don't you jump here first and then? Yeah. Okay. So I'm not a security expert guys, but the Nomad Bridge hack is not a Solana network issue. A similar thing happened to Harmony a couple of months ago, as the Horizon Bridge lost $100 million. And you can remember the XC Infinity game, the running bridge lost over $500 million back in March. So those bridges that interconnect different blockchains, they need some kind of trust mechanism. And the users are reckless. So it's not a problem of the Solana itself. But it's a problem of the bridges. Exactly. I would agree with that. And Yashu, what are your thoughts here of why Solana is so susceptible to hacks? Like Ashley was trying to say that it was never hacked. And blaming Solana for these wallet hacks is like blaming the president for a car theft in New York. So you cannot actually go after Solana like that. But similar, I can just say that Solana has gotten unlucky because they have had one bad news after another. And because of that, we are just looking at, unfortunately, it has gotten in the headlines of so many mainstream news websites. Solana hacked. So the interpretation people can get is like, it's Solana that got hacked. Solana network got hacked. And it just resonates with, oh my god, they had an outage. So all these headlines that are coming up, I think they are just doing at this service. But instead, I think it is the services that are being hacked, slope walleting, as it seems. They did not safeguard their users' private key with cryptography. That is a pretty basic thing. Somebody just attacked their server and stole those simple English seed phases. So how can you blame that and so on? I mean, I don't know what Solana could have done about that. It seems like they have fallen victim to just being associated with the ecosystem or someone that was building within their ecosystem. Then it therefore associates it with Solana. So there's also crypto wars, actually, you know, I'm sorry to say, but there are crypto wars going on. You know, one Cardano guy just blame the Solana. Solana says something about Ethereum. So there's a lot of negativity that keeps going on. When one things get hacked, they just attack the network, you know, it's bad, it's, you know, you should not invest in it. So there's a lot of like, you know, campaigns going on and on about every project, actually. I could imagine. So I guess, Yash, you mentioned that the downtime, we all know Solana network has had, it's what's called in growing pains over the last couple of years. We'll kick this back to you first. Why has the Solana network had so much downtime in the past? I'm curious to learn more about this. Well, it's the same problem.  That is it. That is one thing that really defines that whether a blockchain would be able to, you know, be able to have these outages or not. So I think it is an incredible defeat because Solana has more than 20 outages cases in a year while its rival Ethereum has none in the last three years. So of course, the network was not designed to cater for transaction. And I think the limited, they have a limit of 65,000 so network did not know how to take care of bot attacks. I mean, that's what happened, you know, the, if I, if I just code one instance, the outage that happened in April, or I think early May, it was happened because there were a lot of bots, they were trying to maintain NFT on Solana blockchain. And they kind of like, you know, 100x the transaction counts. So of course, they had to be outages. And that is why it got just down for seven hours or more.  But yeah, that is it. They have to really work on it. All right. So maybe maybe it's just part of the growing pains is not actually a downside to the network. Now, what do exploits in the Solana ecosystem mean, Marcel, and I'm curious to learn from you what, what do these exploits mean? Well, first of all, I don't buy this growing pain theory, for instance, Ethereum guys, the ecosystem as a whole, they think, well, we should build and use the systems as we're building. So we're kind of getting to know how bridges work and getting to know how the DeFi system works. It's a great attitude, but you cannot place like $10 billion on a DeFi application that's still being developed. So Solana is doing exactly this. They're trying to develop and invest huge loads of money at the same time. So it doesn't work. So the main issue with Solana system is centralization. So there's a low number of developers and ecosystem players building all those ventures. There's only maybe a single or two stable coins. And in Ethereum, you already have over 10 different stable coins, over 50 different DeFi applications. So there's less risk. So Solana is too much centralized. I can't hear.  Do you agree with Marcel here and what is your take as to why what do these exploits mean in the Solana ecosystem? I totally think that every new PO is that proof of stake service that comes into view, they first rely on centralization. And I think somebody just wrote that it's still in a beta mode. The only problem is that because we are invested very early in our project without even seeing that if it can prove itself or not. So there's a lot of money being poured into a project that is still in its ideation or in a beta stage and that is always a problem. But yeah, centralization is important at that time because they really need to test the system in the sandbox environment in here. But the problem is they have already taken money for that. There are people already invested to it. Otherwise, if you look at any random startup, they do the same way they fail, they learn, they fix it and they come back. But the only trouble is that people are invested here. So there's nothing wrong in failing and just, you know, there are always stepbacks. Ethereum had a step back in 2016 when DAO was hacked, but they overcame it. But the thing I'm trying to say that it is a proof of stake system and Ethereum is a POW, even now it's a POW system. POW is actually far more secure. So that is why we have not seen any incredible outages. Yes, they have in DDS attacks, but that has not impacted the chain itself.  But when you include bots and when you don't have that transaction fee system where you can actually prioritize your transaction, the bots can attack you. So LANA has suffered something similar, which is why they're also trying to change this mechanism by learning from it. So which is why I say that it is getting a lot of feed. But again, if Ethereum turns into POS, who knows if we see the same problems in that network? That's what I'm saying. It's not a 100% scenario with POS. Go ahead, Marcel. Yeah, wrong again is saying on chat that Solana is still technically in beta version. Dude, you cannot have a $10 billion TVN, TVL network with hundreds of venture capital funds piling money and say, we're in beta, sorry, we're doing mistakes or learning as we go. You shouldn't be offering those products to retail investor if it's still in beta. For instance, like in network, nobody, everybody tells the users do not put over 100,000 satoshis over there. It's still in beta. It's still developing. There's no billion dollar TVL. There's no company inserting $100 million to provide liquidity in channels. It doesn't work that way. So either you're in beta and you work small and announce it to the retailers that they shouldn't put too much money or you release the ready made product. You cannot do both at the same time. Yeah, I guess that is the unfortunate thing in crypto sector that you get money just by the hype. People want to get into this technology early and some of it's very young and nascent. So I guess should Solana holders or sole holders be worried at all Marcel? Well, let's go back in time. So what caused Solana to be a top 10 crypto? Let's be honest here. The project was dead before Sam from FTX took it under his wings. Then after the necessary funding for the ecosystem development, which includes expensive validators for the proof of stake network, there were some venture capitalists. So funds with deep pockets spend money on marketing defy liquidity and incentives for games and web three applications and users developments and users. But there's a problem here. It is not sustainable. So either those VCs, those venture captors will be able to sell their positions at a large profits and move on to the next deal or the developers and the users will be constantly seeking incentives to stay on a network because a competing chain is offering more money. So a similar movement happened in the past for Tron and EOS. So I don't think it's sustainable what you're doing to Solana right now, my opinion. And Yash, where do you fall here? If you're a sole holder, should you be worried? I believe every crypto holder should be worried. Yes, because whatever that has happened with Luna, it was just a so-called amazing project. It was just going in the right direction, but suddenly everything crashed. We don't know about the vulnerability until it really happens. So yes, there's always a very incredible risk associated with these tokens. But it's also my job to really look beyond it because I can talk about the same thing every time that, yeah, there's a risk, there's a risk. But I also want to see that if Solana is doing something about the existing problems. So I think Solana is, they are really attempting to resolve the issue that they have a new series called V1 series. And they have added various stability and performance improvements to address the network congestion experience on the main net. So this series actually introduces a QUIC. It's actually a feature that allows block producers to instruct bots to propose only a small number of transactions at a time. So it simply means, in other words, in very simple words, bots cannot take control over the network, which was the core reason why these outages were taking place. They could not take care of it. Now they are trying to take care of it. They spotted the problem, they're trying to solve it. And there's another feature in this V1 series, it's called Quality of Service. So what it does is it actually focuses on free prioritization, the one we already had in Ethereum. And so like any other network, I think Solana will now focus on the transaction that is offering higher fee. So bots, of course, they are their entire purpose is to simply limit bots from taking over the network. So which is why despite of all the hoopla around, you know, it can be a long-term risk, I think they are going in a right direction as a project. Very good. That's new stuff that I have not known about the Solana ecosystem. So I appreciate you doing a deep dive there. And Marcel and Yashu sharing their thoughts about what's going on with the Solana ecosystem. So thank you guys. I want to quickly turn to the chat and let you guys know we're giving away that market's pro subscription $100 of value. Make sure you drop your Twitter handle in the chat today, which brings us up to our next segment this week. We have our two tokens for markets pro that you should have been watching this week. So let's go ahead and get into our markets pro segment for this week. All right, newsquakes. That's what happened this week. If you watched the show last week, you also saw us. Rad was on the alert system for markets pro last week. And it happened again this week. So what happened while the newsquakes, if you're not familiar with them are the automated alerts that instantly notify users when market moving events happen this week, markets pro subscribers were alerted to the news that Binance US would list rad. The notification was sent out when rad was trading at $2.43 and it quickly jumped to $2.63. That is a 9.8% increase in just a couple hours. You can see there on the chart, we have a huge newsquake actually it's 17%. Newsquake and the white price line goes all the way up with that 17% gain. You love seeing the big gains after those newsquake alerts. And that's the power of the markets pro app. The next coin that you should have been watching this week was based on the vortex score. And if you're not familiar with the vortex or is a comparison between its current market and social conditions of those in the past, what happened this week? Well, DigiByte folks, toward the end of the week, green vortex scores flashed for DGB. These scores informed markets pro subscribers that trading and social conditions around the token were similar to ones from the past that preceded bullish price movement. Not long after the scores flashed, the price climbed 12%. Big gains during these bear markets. And that is why you gotta get markets pro folks. And we're going to be giving away that one month subscription. So make sure if you haven't dropped your Twitter handle in the chat, we're going to be giving that subscription away at the end of the show. And that is our markets pro segment for this week. All right, guys, I want to get some closing thoughts from you all today. What would you like to leave our audience with first? And I'll start with Marcel here. Well, my point is, remember, there's people in Venezuela, in Argentina and Iran that is either going through hyperinflation or government sanctions, like they can't send money abroad or receive money from friends and family or even provide services. People are getting their Github accounts shut down. What's happening to you? What are you going to use to circumvent this importance of cryptocurrencies and not only Bitcoin, the decentralized applications as well? So understand that for you that live in Europe, that live in Brazil, that live in the United States, maybe cryptocurrency is a little game, it's something that's not much relevant because you have a strong currency because you have liberties. But those can be taken down in a minute and you're gonna need cryptocurrencies whether you want or not. Excellent thoughts there. And Yashu, what would you like to tell our audience here with your closing thoughts this week? The guys, like I said, the winter is coming. It is coming. We have talked about recession. So it is very important guys that you stick to your cash for a while.  Because right now it's the best time to really hold on to your savings. You try to save as much as you can. And if you can actually afford to invest, if you have those $2,000, which you can actually spare, which you're not going to use anywhere, please go ahead and listen to Marcel. Please buy something, buy something that can protect you from this inflationary pressures that can protect you from this sanctions and what not. So many things are happening in the world and we cannot actually cover in this section. But yeah, stick to your cash. You don't know what's going to happen. The cash will have you in the end. So yeah, that's going to be my advice. All right. Thank you guys for sharing your closing thoughts for today. I want to go ahead and give our winner for today's Market Spur subscription from the chat. I see Tricrypto's today was chiming in a lot. So the at T-R-Y-C-R-Y-P-T-O-S Tricrypto's. Thanks for tuning in. And all of you tuning in from around the globe today, we appreciate you coming and hanging out with us here on the Market Report this week. And we would love for you to like and subscribe to the Cointelegraph channel here on YouTube. So until next time, folks, make sure you tune in every Tuesday at 12 p.m. Market Report. Until next time, thanks for tuning in.


listening library presents ordinary people change the world I am Jane Goodall by Brad Meltzer illustrated by Christopher Eliopoulos read for you by Lauren Baldwin and an ensemble cast I am Jane Goodall on my first birthday my father bought me a cuddly toy chimpanzee named Jubilee Jubilee meet Jane I loved Jubilee I mean it loved I used to carry Jubilee with me everywhere as I got older when I'd line up all my toys and play teacher Jubilee was the one who had his own chair okay class now who knows what rabbits like to eat yes Jubilee correct as always I didn't just love my toy chimpanzee though I loved all animals even the earthworms I found in the garden did you bring the earthworms inside the house don't worry mom they're safe as can be right under my pillow my mom told me the worms would be safer in the garden so we took them outside and buried them back in their home at five years old I was curious to learn how chickens lay eggs so I crawled into my grandmother's henhouse to watch at first all the hens were scared of me then I decided to crouch in the corner if I had moved the hens would have run away I was patient though finally after all the hours of waiting I saw what I was looking for the hen gave a little wiggle and plop there was an egg where were you you've been missing for so long we sent out a search party you'll never believe where eggs come from it was my first research project in addition to animals I also loved nature I named the chestnut tree nookie and the beach tree beach beach was my favorite thank you beach for letting me read up here oh that was another thing I loved reading back then my family didn't have a lot of money to get books we went to the library when I was seven years old I got a book that would sample complete ready to continue


Hey everyone, this is Carlos. I am the founder and CEO of Product School and today I'm here with Piero Sierra Who's the CPO Chief Product Officer at Sky Scanner. Hey, Piero Hey Carlos, great to meet you. Pleasure to meet you. I'm so excited to have you. You know one of my favorite things to do is to Literally get to meet people who are building some of the products that I use every day I've been using your product for a very long time to book flights and hotels So, you know happy to put that to the name What's Sky Scanner? Well, let's talk about the the beginning because Chief Product Officer is a big title for a big company as well But how did you break into product? Well, I mean I guess going going way back I'm sort of American but I grew up in Italy in Brazil and as a kid just I love computers And so I taught myself to you know, write programs and games for fun just for fun But then and then after that I became a self-taught engineer and I did that for a few years professionally, but then I realized kind of needed a more solid computer science foundation So from there I went to a US university and where I got a degree in computer science and then in 1995 I applied for Job at Microsoft in Seattle and that was a great experience But during the interviews they you know, they do a coding interview They looked at my code and they said, you know, you should be a product manager which I assume is a compliment and if my code must have been so tiny and wonderful that they decided I should be a product manager to be honest. I had no idea what that was I just thought I'm gonna code for a living and they said actually, you know You probably better at PM and so they pushed me into that career track didn't know what it was And I also thought I'm gonna do Microsoft for a couple years And then I'm gonna do other things because I just figure I get some good foundations from that and Instead I fell in love with products and I told Microsoft to Microsoft is a great place to be and so I thought I would be there two years And I blinked my eyes a couple of times and 20 years have gone by I literally spent 20 years at Microsoft I made incredible friends there. I was married in Seattle had kids all that I worked on great products and things I You know into the Explorer. I guess that's fun now, but that used to be a product You might have heard of it and then I worked on windows and MSN messenger and a product called skydry Online pod storage all that was really fun. And then when Microsoft bought Skype You recall and then I must have been like 12 years ago or something But I moved to London because Skype was headquartered in London So I moved to London to run the Skype products team here And that was a ton of fun and a great education because Skype was a true start-up in the sense that Microsoft Obviously was not so I kind of got a taste taste for that and I really fell in love with kind of that start-up Mid-sized company approach to things After Skype I found a leader sky scanner and obviously the product a great product But I fell in love with with the company and the culture here sky scanner is just this kind of vibrant US style start-up And travel like it has an Asia and the different ways of doing things and it has a very it's a very ethical company it's got very good kind of European if you like ethics and Always putting the traveler first and our partners first ahead of even a revenue and things like that It's been very interesting, especially in industry the travel industry as you know, it's not entirely 100% trustworthy So it's nice to be the good price and it feels really great. So that's kind of what brought here Yeah So I have to ask this question. You said you spent 20 years of Microsoft in different roles and different products Now when is that that moment where it's like, okay now you're going to switch gears We're going to join a way smaller company like what was the status of the company a sky scanner when you join and what was your first title there? I so scanner was Well-established so it was already Startup that had I don't know maybe 20 30 million users at the time on a monthly basis It was a popular product that people used especially in Europe at the time. It was mostly European based The core functionality of sky scanner was very good, but the product was not the experience was not connected at all It was very disjointed. It was just it was just like a good back piece of code with a lot of a testing You buy on top of it and no brand no story no connection No consistency and a quite a limited feature set So I saw but I saw the team and I saw the team is so much better than the product Maybe help the product a little bit as and I when I joined I joined a sky scanner as a CEO director and then came with And then eventually chief product officer. So that was the path there I must say at Microsoft my you know and maybe as career advice or for other people that are doing this I look back on the 20 years of Microsoft. It was it was amazing time. I don't regret it But it was too long and I feel like I probably should have moved on sooner I saw it, you know your city for example You've had so many different experiences and I've really only had I consider them three And I don't feel like it's quite enough and there are definitely several years of Microsoft that felt the same Like I'm doing the same thing. I'm doing it Well, I'm not learning as much and so and it's always hard to jump into the deep end of the pool And try something new. I'm a conservative guy. So but by nature, I don't jump as much as other people do I'm very jealous of people who are just like every two years. There's like, let me invent myself Let me try something completely different. That's not been my path. But but I would recommend that path to people instead of mine Which obviously you mentioned that when you broke into product it was almost by chance because your code was you know I think let's put it this way that the employer had a different expectation. I'm also a frustrated engineer and How does someone go from being a good individual contributor? In product to eventually lead product teams as a chief product officer Interesting how do you scale up in that sense? Well, the the great so the the key definition of Product is a leadership function within, you know Engineering which is about building things and so and leadership is is a thing that you sort of There's a core that you probably have to have and that's probably what Microsoft signed me I you know, I joke about my code not as good as other engineer I'm sure that's true But I also think that they did see something in me that they said actually This is somebody that probably could be a reasonable leader and the thing about a Microsoft another company I think is common in the product journey is that we take Very junior people that are actually just coming out of college But we put them in leadership positions almost from day one like most for example most entry-level product managers will work with Seven or eight engineers from day one and those engineers can be like, you know 15-year veterans with tons of experience that know how to do things and somehow that product person is still supposed to Lead them not on everything. It's a it's a partnership But they are saying this is the problem space and this is how we're approaching and these are the priorities, etc so it's it's Officer core in in the army or something like that. You're looking for leadership And obviously there are people that naturally demonstrate some of that and other people have to develop it And there's so many different leadership styles and probably there's some selecting bias that happens there as well but and then so that's the entry level and then in terms of of You know moving on and getting promoted and then getting to eventually bigger and bigger things Well, there's so many different aspects of that obviously it's about being good at the job and doing it well and being successful it's also I think about maybe finding that balance between Being a good leader, but also finding ways to subsume your ego If you understand what I mean by that because you you want to be able to Set direct and guide people But you don't want to all be about you and I actually think that the people that are able to get results and Lead, you know groups of engineers to deliver great things that have no market fit, etc But that aren't it's not about them, but it's always about the team I find that they get promoted more often and at microsoft and You know the one thing I used to say of microsoft Thinking about it because I spent 20 years there seeing multiple people go from intern to, you know VP basically seeing people really getting people promoted across that path and one of the things I kept saying was It The justice will prevail in time Right, like the good people will rise to the top and you know, there might be one promotion cycle Where something unfair happens somebody doesn't realize that you were actually the key contributor for x and y Or and somebody else gets promoted that you think well that person's a coconut and how better than they are Whatever it is and passing over that it just is actually a negative spiral that will slow you in your career as opposed to if you're able to just Push that down not worry about that focus on results and focus on making the people around you great You know, that's funny, but I actually think at least in the companies I've worked on that actually works And I like that perspective especially in a world where it's a lot of turn around and as you mentioned some people are Switching jobs very often and I really admire people who are here for the long game who are focusing on like Really a 10 years from now type of outcome who are optimizing for a big win not just for themselves But for their team and I agree with you. I think product Requires to put the ego aside because in a way we're on the sidelines right like these days We have engineers designers marketers. They're supposed to get credit when things go well And in a way, I think we should also take responsibility when things don't go so well Absolutely So what does your day today look like? um Well, so in my case, uh, I need a product and our design team is actually grand and design Team so it's very large team. It's about 150 people At this scale and my job is mostly Organization right sitting broad direction organization structure staying aligned with boards staying aligned with my executive peers Setting targets, but actually I try to think of my job as much as possible as setting things up and getting out of the way You know getting out of the way of the product Leaders and the design leaders who should be making the real decisions of what we go do And I know that that can sound a little corny But getting out of the way and actually more importantly keeping the rest of the company out of the way Uh can be quite a hard balancing act, you know, we'll have some Revenue target, you know revenue was soft this quarter So we want to hit that and word wants you to hit that and company wants to hit that commercial team wants you to Hit that it makes sense. You want to do that. But actually Product or design team that is saying we need to go slower to go faster here We need to invest this can take three quarters for this thing to fly But once it does it's going to be great. Here's why it's going to be great. We have the hypothesis is valid We've tested it.  I also sometimes joke that my job is saying no, right like 90% of the time it's it's it's no and then 10% of time I can see yes stuff So that's that's a lot of it And then of course, you know Think about your priorities and the okr planning and execution process is a big part of my day But you you mentioned 150 people team and not just engineers but many different functions and and we've seen that There's not just one playbook. There's so many different ways a product team can be organized So how do you think about different work models and what have you found successful for you? No, that's a great question. I I'd love to hear your perspective on that question because you probably have been exposed to even more organizational models Me I can tell you at sky scanner. We we thought long and hard about different models We actually evolved our story a year over multiple years But the the core thing that we've done is first of all We've organized our engineers into squads and then our you know squads and the tribes pretty standard stuff But the the challenge in is how do you match that to the business? Right and because there's many ways to organize the bdc business You can organize it by channel So you should have somebody an app somebody looking at web site You can organize it by software and later cake right back end middleware and then you are layers on top You know, you can organize it by business in our case We have flights of towels and cars and I guess advertising are the four big businesses So you can imagine an organization that looks like that And so you have all of these possible dimensions for how you organize a business And you need to figure out the right ones. I've actually in our world We've taken out channels because you can't think in four dimensions So that the main thing to do is to pick two of those And say like, you know, in our case, for example, we organize ourselves by Channels by journeys So top of funnel middle funnel funnel and then by platform And if you can fatten the dimensions You can create an work structure that can resist strategy changes because the problem is your strategy will change every six months And things will come up and you want to come up with an organization that can kind of resist uh Support any strategy like without having to be completely redone all the time because the reworks are Help at our scale, you know, we have you know, 1600 engineers. It becomes really really hard to reorganize folks. We really try not to do that So that's that's That's the most explicitly chose to go away from a gm model. You've probably been exposed to this I'm allergic to that from microsoft Microsoft has uh, you know, the thing is work chart diagram We have in an apples case. It's Steve jobs in the middle and everybody Microsoft is like all these different islands with guns pointed at each other. This is the old microsoft By the way things that change a lot that when I was there that's very much the model And so I I tend to think that uh Works create walls And you want to try to think they don't solve problems. They create problems, right? Like I the best work is no work Just we're all sitting around the table coding together But at a scale you can't do that so how do you design that we've been very allergic to thief them and Individual leaders we try to do everything discipline based And everything so everything's have all the pms regardless of what Team they work on or what kind of they're part of report up into, you know, keep product officer all the engineers are up into the chief technology officer, etc We try to keep all the disciplines separate That model's worked pretty well for us. I was actually quite excited about that model at scale. Um, but there's other models that can work as well, of course It's good. Can I ask a question to you? What are you seeing and what do you think is person? I started to see some patterns because I I love asking this question I'm a nerd when it comes to a behavioral organization and And I've seen first of all, there are certain classics that still stick like the amazon two Pizza team approach like really breaking down things into small squads that you can fit with just two pizzas Um, but I agree with you. I've seen more and more companies using the approach of the customer journey Rather than the channel because in this world where everything's kind of only channel. It's Really hard to assign a huge channel Yeah We try to do the channel thing So for example, we tried to have a team that was like the app is a channel And we're just going to have a team that owns the app end to end But the problem is First of all, like you said the customers are on the channel. They search on the web and then they come into the app They do a booking nick while they're traveling. They use the differences. They maybe they're on a friend's computer They're still trying to sign in see the same data and then for the teams that are thinking about the journey How do I get a customer to move further down my journey engage more with the things that we have to offer? Those Those people found it very very hard to then say well now I have to go to the I don't have any app engineer So I have to go to the app team and ask them to do something for me. So we don't do that. We've organized ourselves Really by my journey of course the platform team. So there's a data team for everything There's a supply team for everything, etc But that seems to work quite well for us actually And I think at some point nothing wrong with um You know if you're a company the size of a microsoft or an amazon It's just that probably becomes impractical. I hear amazon. Actually, sorry apple really does this at scale I haven't worked at apple, but I hear that they have disciplined leadership all the way through the company I don't know how real that can possibly be given the breadth of the company the number of people the number of projects But uh, I don't know because so they don't share much So it's really hard to get but one challenge that I've noticed with this approach Which is more focused on the on the customer journey rather than the channel So there has to be a strong partnership with marketing teams Like it's really hard to define a line in between what is marketing versus what is product? What is product marketing? So how do you think about that? Yes, so, uh, I think if you find an answer to that I would I would be so happy because that is absolutely Fundamental problem that everybody struggles with and you know, he I I'll start by saying what I believe is true, but I have not achieved personally I know that some companies are a lot closer than we have. We're still struggling on this journey But I believe that that uh product and marketing are actually not different In now there's different specialism. So you're gonna market people that are quite good at marketing product people that are good at product and designers good at designers But the product is the thing that should be marketable So, uh, what is the difference between answering a question for the trial in our case travelers, right? Because we're a travel company on google for sco and answering it on our product If you ask, uh, you know, who flies from from london to miami if you type it into google Skyster has an acl page for you that will say here's who here's the answer to that question But if you go to the product itself you ask that question you get a different answer in a different format And so for example, why why are sco pages not our core product pages simply, you know Put onto a dedicated url like google could read, right? And so can those things come closer together or think about merchandising like the merchandising activities, which is like In a given market, you want to talk about certain things Maybe in one market we want to talk about insurance in another market We want to talk about hey that's some domestic sale option or another market we want to talk about tells So, you know the merchandising for how we talk to customers has to be deeply embedded in the product We think about the The good market activity So you're typically a lot of what used to happen at skyscraper a lot actually was that the product team Would come up with a great product and we do a bunch of experiments problem space Uh, experimentation double diamond, then they would chip nvp Then we would get they would a test it's working this thing it looks really good And then when it was done it would put the marketing team said look what we did Please market it And the marketing team would go like are you nuts? This is not like if not designed to be marketed for stars. You missed yet. I don't have a unique url I don't have a way to you know, there's all these missing tools that I have Then it doesn't fit into the narrative But we're trying to talk about from a marketing perspective And so trying to bring that together is the ultimate challenge Well, we're what we've done at skyscraper to get closer to nirvana, but we're not on nirvana But we're doing to get closer to that is one to make sure that there's only one Engineering team. There's not a separate engineering team for product from marketing Because I think that can get you in deep trouble. We actually used to be that way I mean that I'm building a lot of marketing technology that had to be thrown away and product that couldn't be marketed So we we have only one engineering team. That's number one And then we actually have a pm a product marketing manager function Whose job it is to connect these two worlds and to stitch them together So for example, they they manage like how do you do a good market properly? So there'd be a pm thinking about some problem and a pm Will go to that pm and say well, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that that's connected to this marketing person Let's figure out what's happening in brazil right now and try to stitch that together Into something more coherent when we actually launch it and pm is a new funding for skyscanner We've only had it for a year, but it's working well and we want to work that whole down So I used to abuse the PMs and Microsoft. It's a it's a powerful function. It's not right It's a very special company in via pm. That's a whole other conversation I agree. It's so powerful. I I wish I hadn't learned about this earlier I come from an as you as well from an engineering background I was under this impression of like well Good pms into great code And now we're seeing this transformation around a good pms Really have to write copy and really understand the business side of things and the user more than Or not just the technical aspect Yes, I I would say there's there's many kinds of good There's so many different paths into product and so for example, there are obviously like you said engineers that become product managers There's marketing people that become product managers Sometimes there's like the entrepreneurs that become most CEOs are effectively product leaders or not all that in tech They tend to be And then there's even now you're seeing a lot more like data scientists and people with a strong data background become product managers and so Sort of naturally They will all bring with them the prior knowledge and that's the lens that they will apply and so If you come from a computer science background and engineering background and your product manager You probably need to do a lot of learning and marketing. So that's what okay, son Don't you know that that's probably the thing you come from marketing You probably want to learn more about the software development life cycle and how to work with engineers to get things done and try to close those apps Because no, there's you know, I don't think there's any unicorns that just show up with all of that knowledge And company it's good diversity too. Like so just to be clear, you know, we have several for example technical product managers that oversee an api that That's totally fine. They're very good at that And you know, you don't need them to go designing UI and work with design or figure out how something Should be marketed and work with the marketing team. So the special is in can be useful Yeah, and it's great that there are options these days Because like that was before we were like, okay the product manager is like one was the only member of the product team and now we're seeing how Diverse this is and first of all, yes, there are a lot of different types of pms But there are also a lot of people who are part of the product team who who are not just Pre pms and I think that's great example would be pmm. But you know, we can talk about Program managers business and this data. I also consider honestly design and engineering and even marketing part of the product team because as you said This is a team sport It is a team sport and that this connects back to your point or your question around organizational design and how to do it because if you're going to say That you have a discipline based model, which means that you know under the ceo There's going to be a number of Chiefs for disciplines and the reporting lines go vertically down from those people That means that the only place it actually all comes together is at the ceo Right, whereas if you have gems each each gem is like a little mini ceo effective, right? If you're going to say you do a discipline based And you're going to say to make anything happen You need to have You know a product person a marketing person a pmm a designer obviously an engineer leader or whatever it is and it's the same sport Then you really need to search for people that are great at collaborating and working together and turning off their egos Because if not, it all falls apart because if you have two of those people Let's say a marketing person and a product person that can't Can't figure out a way to solve a problem or resolve it Their natural instinct is to go up a level and escalate it But in a discipline model That just escalates all the way up to the ceo because there's no it doesn't come together in some smaller So and that that's why the gem thing is so tempting so many companies are tempted to say it's too complicated I just want one person who will decide everything and like you know, so In our case, I just want one person who will own flights and you know, so I don't have to worry about hotels I don't have to worry about the app I just want but it doesn't actually help and So instead what we do Is we really really focus in our hiring process and in our development process on finding ways to collaborate together on the team sport piece on turning off our egos and And we're very allergic to that like one of our key cultural And we're not the only company of course to have this but we have a very high degree of allergy Towards uh self-centeredness, you know, we are our core value at sky scanner is is travelers first Then partners the sky scanner then team and then me in that order and if you can't get With that value then, you know, it's probably not the right company for it And there are other ways to be that can be perfectly successful. But that's how we do it And piero, what are you excited about learning these days? Oh, well it's interesting because The problems I'm most passionate about aligned well with our mission But given that I get this more or less set the mission with my exact peers that maybe is not a coincidence Our mission is is to lead the world in modern and sustainable travel and that those there's two days modern and sustainable And what we mean by that those are the two problems that I'm most interested in these days. So the modern one what I think of this is kind of first of all how primitive travel shopping is Compared to almost any other form of shopping, you know, if I asked you to pull out your phone right now and order 46 inch TV While you are talking to me, you could probably get a TV figure out the reviews You know, just in the background with one hand you could probably figure everything out You need click buy and it would show up on your doorstep tomorrow And if you don't like it, you could return it right like buy one click and all of that through the obvious The amazon's but other merchants as well. It's just so easy to do all that in commerce But if I said to you, you know, book a flight to london You know right now with your phone just pull out your phone and book a flight to london There's no way that you could do that and the truth is that technology has Turned us all into travel agents. We all have you know, it's been great Like we all you know, we all have those tools whether it's a You know, speedy archylax guys can or whatever google you can just find all of this inventory and all that But how do you it's huge darkside because now you spend eight or nine hours planning stuff You can't book everything into the same place. You don't get consistent service when you do it So in some senses I mentally want to turn back the clock a little bit to Hold enough to use the travel agent, you know go to the travel agent say what you want Get great answers get a couple of choices and take care of the rest So heading more in that direction is interesting and doing that in a way that is Able and still part of our business model that's far the other big problem that I'm interested in sustainability I mean, you know travel travel is is a force for good in the world It brings people together it moves barriers. It brings more as it's commerce. It's all those things and we love it It's just it's a human thing But it comes with a huge Downside I mean that's obvious and even I have to tell you when I was interviewing for sky scanner I love the product But I was hesitant to join a company whose role was to you know success for sky scan is put more more people on More airplanes for less and less money, right? That's success and that's good for business But for the planet that's that's not so good. Luckily. I found A very like minded team at sky scanner That was deeply aware of the impact of travel and trying to do what they could to improve things And so we've now we've now said sustainability isn't isn't just a CSR corporate social responsibility for us, but that's our mission What can we do with with software in our position in the marketplace? You know, we're basically a search engine for all of these travel things to really encourage More sustainable travel can we teach people what is better? What which choice is better than another choice? You know this flight actually because it flies You know, it's a short haul that flies shorter than this other flight or it's a specific airplane a model of aircraft Or it's this percent full all those things affect how much You know co2 it's going to emit so can I teach people To care about this and choose those things because if I can Then what I can do is I can go to the suppliers in the airlines and I can get them to create more supply it's like a little bit like You know we all love organic food now But we have to be taught that organic food is better and we have to be taught to prefer organic food We cost a little bit more But if you buy organic food and then the suppliers like whoa these people are paying more and actually you know I can save on So the suppliers stepped up and made more organic food and that's a cycle So what we're trying to do in sky scanners to learn about that cycle and see how much we can contribute to the industry And kind of push that forward and that's a very very Space and a very hard space to actually do anything with but it's fascinating. So spending a lot of time on that I enjoy it our conversation and and I love your leadership style and how you you also lead with with your heart and with purpose Um, I think it's important for the long term and also for the next generation We all care a lot about how things are made where they come from and I kind of was a long term vision behind um, is there anything else you would like to say to Spinding an entry-level PM who are looking up to you thinking.  How can they kind of accelerate their career? Well, um, yes, I think I'll go back to the point I made at the beginning of this Which I think is still true which is look, you know join a company And don't worry about getting promoted if you spend your time thinking about getting promoted That's almost certainly and managers hate that but you know what they hate They hate the PM that comes in and instead of talking about all the problems that they've solved They talk about like, you know, how am I going to get promoted making the checklist? What is the tick tick thoughts so I can get to the next level like It actually hurts you it slows you down in your career So if you can ignore titles ignore rank ignore layers Especially in a bigger company and just just if you find something that you believe needs to Get done go and make it happen after permission not for forgiveness You know, just push it through and and try to let go of your ego a little bit and not take yourself this seriously I honestly think that's good for your advice. I it's only work for me But thank you so much. Um, yeah, let's keep building cool products and um, thank you so much for your time. Thank you Wonderful Carlos. It was great to meet you. Cheers I mean