It's my pleasure to introduce the Purdue Engineering Distinguished Lecture Series, where we invite world-renowned faculty and professionals around the world to share their experience and their thoughts about the grand challenges and opportunities in their fields. The series started in 2018 under our Dean of Engineering, Dr. Mang Chang. And to introduce our speaker, I will invite Dr. Mang Chang to the stage. Mang Chang is the Executive Vice President of Purdue University for Strategic Initiatives. He is the John A. Edwardson Dean of the College of Engineering. And he's also the Roscoe H. George Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering. So please, let's us give a warm welcome to Mang. Thank you so much, Dimitri. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us to the Elmore Family School of Electrical Computer Engineering, the host of the first in-person Purdue Engineering Distinguished Lecture. And we have an outstanding speaker today, but first I want to thank all of you for joining us, including those who are lining up for Starbucks. One great use of the caffeine that you're about to consume is to actually listen to the latest in semiconductors, as we all know that semiconductors chips, these microelectronic chips, maybe a year ago, if you ask people, can I get a bag of chips? I cannot get chips. And they say, well, go to Walmart, go to Target, go somewhere, and you can find all kinds of varieties of different flavors of chips. And now, of course, we all know that people cannot get chips. And it is damaging our national security, our job security, our economic security. And people are wondering, how can we charter the next decades of Moore's law access to chips advancement in how we design, manufacture, and package the chips? So it's great to see that as we relaunch the in-person version of the Purdue Engineering Distinguished Lectures, as we continue the journey towards and in sustaining the Pinnock of Excellence at scale, I have to brag about this, we are the largest top 10 undergrad engineering in the United States and top five, largest ever to be ranked top five in any discipline, any time in history. So we're proud of the faculty, students, staff here. As we do that, we think about semiconductors as a key pillar, microelectronics as a key pillar in many schools in the College of Engineering. And I'll just brag about two things and then introduce today's distinguished lecture. First is the fact that we have 30 plus outstanding faculty in, yes, Elmore Family School of ECE, but also in mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, material science engineering, industrial engineering and more. And these 30 plus strong faculty and their graduate students have received no less than nine nationally competitive research centers in semiconductors in just the past four years alone, including three out of six of the SRC sponsored research centers in the last round of competition, three out of six led by Purdue faculty members. And furthermore, on the workforce and education front, Purdue is the lead institute for the DOD scale workforce development program for the country. We also are in the process of rolling out, I think, the first set of degrees and certificates from undergrad to master to certificate online residential across design manufacturing and packaging. I think we are the first in the country to do just that. And as companies and to some degree governments put in hundreds of billions of dollars, some estimate $1 trillion in the coming decade around the world, hundreds of billions will be here in the United States. Where do we find that 80 to 100,000 new engineers and all kinds of engineers for the microelectronics industry? Well, today we're going to look at one particularly exciting dimension on test assembly and packaging and advanced packaging, technologically changing the equations. And this is one of the unique strengths here at Purdue and how that can be on short, reshored, near short back to the United States much more so than the previous years and decades. And it's a particularly exciting honor to introduce therefore today's distinguished lecturer, Ravi Mahajan. Ravi is an Intel fellow and the leader of Intel's effort in advanced packaging and assembly, the Pathfinder program in that important arena. And under Intel's new CEO, Pat Gausinger's leadership, there has been a resurgence of Intel and the whole industry's interest in advanced packaging here in the United States. We are delighted to have the partnership with many parts of Intel and hope today's visit by Ravi will further strengthen that. And Ravi received his PhD from Lehigh in 1990 and has been with Intel for 30 years more or less now. And over these three decades Ravi has made a tremendous impact and contributions including the Silicon Bridge, among many other intellectual property and contribution to the R&D. Ravi has also been a strong leader in working with academia between Intel and universities such as Purdue, creating new programs, new partnership opportunities and that is more important than ever before in the coming month as the CHIPS Act and other related federal resources will be invested in these areas. So Ravi's subject today will be the not-so-quiet revolution and how advanced packaging, in addition to the design and manufacturing of CHIPS, will shape and reshape the semiconductors industry. So with great delight, a warm welcome to Ravi. Thank you. Thank you. Can you all hear me okay? I always say this when I begin my talk, actually not always sometimes. The place at which I started my career at Intel, I moved about 500 feet from it max, except when they decided to renovate our offices and then they moved me two floors up but brought me just within that 500 margin. So to those of you who think about secure careers and long careers, I would highly encourage taking up packaging. The only time you have to move more than 500 feet is to attend to a squealing baby or to travel on vacation. With that incentive, let me start my talk. So I'm pretty sure there's going to be questions of what this phrase quiet and not so quiet is going to be and I will come to that. But before that, let me flash one paper that was written by John Shalf recently and he made two fairly interesting points. The points he made was that as we move forward, computing will be dominated by the ability to interconnect different compute and communication elements and the interconnects will play a greater and greater role. This in no way diminishes the value of homogeneous integration or Moore's law but it makes packaging an extremely good complement to the way we believe the future is going to evolve. Because I work for Intel, I have to flash a legal notice. Those of you who are speed readers assume that you have read this fast and I will move on. If nothing else, if nothing else you take away from this talk, I would ask you to take a few key messages out of this talk. One is advances in packaging technology are undeniably a vehicle that will drive compute and communications forward and they will truly drive it in ways that we have not thought about. And I'll show you a few examples of things we have built today that we could not have imagined in the last five years. If there is recognition that H.I. is the vehicle to drive advances, you know, the changes we make will no longer be quiet. Now let me quickly explain what this word quiet is so I get it out of the way. Packaging has evolved and there have been tremendous changes and I have a very simple slide to explain what these changes are. These are groundbreaking, economy changing changes but they have always, always flowed under the radar of Moore's law scaling. That doesn't mean that this field has not evolved. Some tremendous technological advances have been made in this field. And we have always done it under the radar moving forward given the level of importance and the level of interest that you see in this field. This is going to sort of come above the surface in a number of ways and it has already done so. Today we have packaging architectures that provide unprecedented level of performance in all kinds of architectures in the laptops you carry, the servers that drive it, the high performance compute that happens. And to move this forward, there are a number of technical challenges that we all have to look at carefully and master ways to solve it. I am firmly of the opinion that industry, academia, partnerships are the partnerships that will drive this forward. It will no longer be a case where an industry, academic relationship is just a matter of developing a small building block, a small tool or a metrology that is brought in, but a lot of technological innovation changes in materials, structure and performance predictions will have to be driven through fairly collaborative partnerships. So I know some of you may not have context so let me flash a very simple picture of what I am talking about when I say packaging. This is what I mean by packaging. A package on the left is 100 millimeter by 100 millimeter entity on which you have multiple things placed each individually tested to those tiny things that today are causing so much grief because we do not have many chips available today. The scope of the field is tremendous in a very simple flyby sort of example. Let me see if I can explain this. A wafer arrives at the shores of a packaging factory. That wafer is sorted which means probes come and touch it on the top, figure out if something works or something doesn't, you X out the parts that don't work. We thin it. Our devices start at 720 microns and can be thinned down to as low as 50 microns when they are utilized. The thinning process itself is something that has to be done flawlessly and I really mean that to those of you who study fracture mechanics, there have to be no flaws created by this so it has to be flawless. After that the dye is prepared or prepped, cut into pieces. Intel brings something very unique that nobody else has in this party. We are able to test each of these dye to create what is known as known good dye. As in before we stick it on a package, we have to know that it is good. So the known good dye is something we bring and it's a unique competency that reduces the overall cost. And if you look at the economics of this whole equation, this is a very, very important aspect of the whole part. After that the main operation which is a package is assembled on a packaging substrate using all kinds of materials. We put in different protection elements, thermal conduction elements. All kinds of elements are put in together and a part is created. This part is now tested for functionality. And when it is tested for functionality, this is what goes on as a guarantee that this is going to work. After that it is finished as in marked for traceability and we design boards to ensure that the parts we develop are compatible with the boards on which they go. The point of this is that the scope is pretty large. There are all kinds of points of failure in this and these have to be very intelligently developed. So one of the things I pride myself because I work in Intel is we produce processes that ensure 99 plus percent of the dye that come into our process go out good. As in our processes are designed to deliver this level of performance before they go into high volume factory. To do this you need a whole amount of predictability, understanding of materials and structures. I said we will not be so quiet so let me describe what was quiet and those of you who are curious that picture actually is titled quiet revolutions. You can Google it if you wish. In the last 30 years that I have been in this industry there have been significant changes. In the 1990s for instance for the very first time organic flip chip packaging came into being. What happened because of this is we were able to take a low expansion coefficient piece of silicon, stick it on a high expansion coefficient and still produce reliable parts. An entire new industry was born. If you look at the way the money shifted and the importance shifted in that time frame it had moved completely from a certain class of industry to another class of industry. And by doing this we offered a lot of advantages instead of doing the traditional wire bond side arrays we were able to do area arrays. In the early 2000s people figured that the interconnect on the back of silicon was made of copper why not make bumps out of copper and slowly but surely we took all the lead out of it. The semiconductor industry can proudly claim to be the first industry that became environmentally friendly by eliminating first lead and then halogen out of its components. All kinds of sockets became mainstream and as the density of the interconnect started growing up we introduced new methods. Fine pitch flip chip became real and then technologies that were introduced in the earlier part of the past decade are today in high volume manufacturing. I'll describe them briefly. Technologies like silicon interposer like EMIB became mainstream and a new horizon opened up for product performance. Almost everything that was done here was very well known to the packaging engineers. The intensity of technical thought and work is known to most people in the field but it was not outside. Moving forward my belief is this will change. So, before I describe packaging for heterogeneous integration let me do two things. First is let me emphasize that this is not a new idea. So, what exactly does heterogeneous integration mean? In a very, very, very simplistic high level sense heterogeneous integration is when you take different elements, silicon or prepackaged components, have it all tested and then stick it on a substrate. It could be a motherboard or a package and you get higher functionality like the sum is much better than the parts that constitute the sum. In 2005 I helped make the slides for Dr. Bill Holt who ran Intel's technology and manufacturing group. Bill Holt was a pretty far thinker, he was pretty strategic in his thought process. So, we synthesized the few things he was going to say in his talk at Interpac into this slide. Bill pointed out that if something can be developed on the same silicon process node, you cannot beat Moore's law. In terms of its economy, in terms of performance you just can't beat Moore's law. There is no other industry where you can double the size in a fixed period of time. The period of time has changed but the fact that you double the number of transistors has not changed. If, however, you cannot integrate something on the die then the next best platform is the package. So, whenever it is heterogeneous the package is the best of all of them. We've used this idea many, many times. We've used the idea of heterogeneous integration or HI for mainly time to market. When you cannot design a complex chip, you design its constituent parts, teach them on a package. They don't perform as well but you get your purpose done and you get it out very quickly. This is the first example of integration. We integrated SRAMs. Now most of you who work in this field know that SRAMs can be very easily integrated into a silicon process. You just need a little bit of time. So this idea never made it out past the first generation. The first generation it made it, next generation you got better SRAMs because you do Moore's law shrinking.  This doesn't make sense. However, other ideas like memory controllers could be integrated on package and it made sense to integrate them and optimize them on a different process. And the one that has driven integration much, much more than before is the idea of truly heterogeneous silicon. For instance, DRAM integration on package where DRAM can be used both for local capacity and for a local high bandwidth interconnect between different entities on the package. And these are examples of devices that are and have been in the market for a while. So in time as the idea of value of heterogeneous integration has become more and more clear. I just point out to a single paragraph taken out of a report that was sent to the White House. This report said that not only semiconductors but the ability to package them is going to dominate how we are going to move forward or progress in the future. And as Dr. Chang said, the ability for the United States or the ability for any high performing government or country to have these technologies in house and to be able to develop these technologies and deploy them is going to be a differentiator and this will be a key value proposition moving forward. So why the interest? I already made a case for the interest. Let me go into this a little bit more detail. For instance, I take the example of a very well-known application for heterogeneous integration, a 10 nanometer FPGA die. For that die to perform very well, you have the need for high capacity memory next to it. And you need to connect it with a link that is able to transmit a certain amount of bandwidth typically high at a low power. When technologies that deliver that interface started to come to the fore is when these kind of ideas started becoming mainstream. Today, high bandwidth memory is available in volume. It can be interconnected with a very high bandwidth low power interface and it will continue to evolve as time goes by. The other argument that I made was of optimization. There are some technologies that can be intrinsically built into the same silicon process node. There are some that make a lot of sense to optimize in a different process node. Whenever you have IP that is optimized and today the sources of IP are all over the world. Whenever you can optimize IP on a process and you can integrate it on package is when you can get better functionality. One of the arguments against silicon and the value of Moore's law because you shrunk was you could stay within radical limits. A typical radical is 33 millimeters by 25 millimeters. But if you want to put way more silicon then you can capture in a reticle. You could argue I'll do two reticles, three reticles, four reticles. But how do you guarantee that the adjacent die are all going to work? Much better for you to try and integrate on package guarantee yourself that your part works when you integrated it. And then the two arguments, which is why heterogeneous integration was always popular, which is yield resiliency. When you begin a new process, yield of that process is slow. And as you start building more and more and learning more of the process, the yield goes up. If you want to buy or guard yourself against failures and improve cost, in the beginning you introduce it on a package and then later introduce it on a die. And then time to market. The design complexity of designing SOCs is much higher than integrating and designing on a package. All these arguments say that heterogeneous integration is here to stay as long as it is truly heterogeneous.  Why do I say this? I'll show you an example on the left. This was done as part of a DARPA program called CHIPS. In this program, we took an FPGA in the center and we connected it to a high bandwidth DAC from a separate company optimized on a different process. The other curious thing you will see in here is at the bottom left, there is an optical electrical converter chip connected to the FPGA using a standardized link called AIB. There are two or three things that are pretty curious about the whole thing. One is I take a 55 millimeter by 55 millimeter package.  I don't even particularly care how they are built. The only thing I care about is that where they latch to the die is a common interface and that common interface is publicly available. Intel has made AIB publicly available. Different people can optimize different elements, mix and match and bring it together. So, there is a lot of value in being able to do this sort of integration on package. This idea when we first developed it working with DARPA was the genesis of Intel being funded to start a digital factory that does heterogeneous integration called the SHIP factory. The state of the art heterogeneously integrated packaging factory. It's very simple. You know, conceptually you have a package, you have common interfaces, you develop die, different people come in, you make sure they are all secure, stitch them together. You have a part. You know, and you can optimize each of them separately. This was the basis for the US government funding Intel to do stuff like this. It addresses the security question I talked about. It addresses the value proposition question and it allows the opportunity to do plug and play. And not just Intel. I mean, Intel focuses on CPUs, GPUs, memory controllers, FPGAs, you know, typical high and high performing parts. But in the bigger picture, there is a realization across the industry that heterogeneously integrated components on package will carry a lot of value. And there is even an industry roadmap, which is publicly available where we have started to scope. What it takes to describe a path forward for a community consisting of academics, industrial researchers, students, equipment manufacturers, materials developers, the entire supply chain. This roadmap, if you look at the scope of the roadmap, to me it is sometimes interesting that we managed to get so many people together and wrote something. And it is a beginning in no way an end, but this describes to you what we believe is how you can get the entire community to march in the same direction. So, I talked about the value of the package as a compact platform. If we want to move this technology forward, there are a few things that we will have to work on and this will go into the root of my talk. We have to make sure that we continue to evolve high bandwidth power efficient links on die, on package, ok, enabled by IO on die. While we do this, we have to make sure that the data that leaves the package also is supported and there is a diversity of protocols. There is PCIe, there is DDR, there is the CXL spec, all of these have to be supported. And I will show you a couple more that are quite interesting. We have to make sure that while we deliver this bandwidth and we change the speeds, we will make all the data integrity guaranteed, which means you have to be able to deliver noise isolation for both single ended and differential solutions. Bringing everything together almost everybody knows is going to make things run hot, so you got to figure out how to cool it.  So the ability to support a bunch of power delivery networks simultaneously and control each of them is going to dictate how successful we are. There is other stuff here that I have not focused because I work primarily in the high performance industry. But the last and by far the most important in all of this is our ability to develop manufacturing processes, materials and equipment that is able to turn things around fast at high yield and high efficiency will be the differentiator. Make no mistake as everybody who works in these fields know this is a highly, highly, highly competitive world. And in competitive worlds of this nature, our ability to understand each of the constituent elements and to put them together so that we guarantee performance of the end element will be the differentiator between success and failure. And if you look at the top people working in this field, each and every one of these companies fully understands what it takes to deliver stuff like this. And the amount of debate that goes on in this field both for performance as well as for economics is truly astonishing. And to those of you who think packaging is just cardboard boxes, I would suggest these are highly intelligent cardboard boxes. The amount of engineering science that goes on in this field is tremendous. I'll focus only on one main aspect but I'll do a fly through with few other aspects. I'll talk primarily about interconnects. And for the purposes of this talk, let me distinguish what the word interconnect means. If I connect in a plane, I call it 2D. If I connect in the Z, I call it 3D. You have two choices.  So the first I'll call fast and narrow, the second I'll call wide and slow. The wide and slow is called parallel, the fast and narrow is called serial. There is sufficient understanding in this field that says if I really do the wide and slow, which means I build complex packages, I'm going to end up getting much better latency if I hire bandwidth and a lower power. And that is the basis for wide advanced packaging. Now, what does advanced packaging mean?  So if I said I need to increase the density, I have to reduce the width of the wire, I have to reduce the space between the wire, and in an ideal world I have to cut down the size of the pad. This is a linear metric for escape. The other is an aerial metric, number of bumps per unit area. To reduce, to increase the number of bumps per unit area, you reduce the bumpage. So this is the Intel centric view of what packaging looks like. In the XY plane, we have many technologies, but the one technology we focus on on the high end is called EMIB. EMIB what you do is you produce localized interconnects between the die, just where you need them.  And since you can move in the X, you can move in the Z, why not move in both? That's the third combination. Combine EMIB and four-varose and you get an interconnect which is pretty impressive. For time I will just highlight to you that even if you were to go out and buy packages today, you can get a really, really wide range of properties in terms of interconnect density. You can get as low as 30 to all the way up to 500 and maybe even a thousand. And there are cases where you can go past a thousand. This is available today. There are IO circuits that connect these at high density which deliver high bandwidth, high power efficient, highly power efficient performance. And if I look at the vertical interconnect, the interconnect of choice today is using solder. We know that when solder goes to somewhere in the 20, 30-ish micron range, it is going to slowly but surely run out of steam. But hybrid bonded interconnects where copper-copper joints are made also exist and can deliver very high IO density. And as I said, if you combine the 2D and the 3D, you get to a configuration which gives you tremendous flexibility in what you can bring together. You take a wafer. This wafer has 2 silicon piers at the bottom, not exposed yet. You attach the top die, fill the gaps between the bumps to protect the joints, mold it to build structural rigidity, grind it to expose the back of the die so that you have access thermally for cooling these parts. Flip it over, expose the through silicon vias, create pads, plate solder, reflow the solder to make bumps, magic. Different kinds of die integrated on stacks, multiple stacks connected to compare and die through email. The logo is outdated, the jingle is not. So, you know, when I presented stuff like this in 2019 to a bunch of industry analysts, everybody said you guys are good at drawing cartoons and making animation, which is probably true. However, this is a real part out in the market today, ok. It's called Ponte Vacuum. It's called EMIB. Two tiles. This is a petaflop in your hand. You have compute tiles, a memory tile, a interconnect of area, a base tile, a bunch of memory, a connectivity die, a multi-tile package EMIB, greater than a 100 billion transistors, 47 active die from five different process nodes. This is built in manufacturing. The people who build it say it is very hard to build, but it's a fact that we can build it. Engineers are pretty ingenious. This is what it looks like. Two tiles.  Number of active die per stack is 16. Maximum active top die size is 41 millimeter square. The base is 450 millimeter square, close to a reticle. The package is less than 100 millimeters, 77 by 62. 11 EMIBs embedded in there. This in my mind is sort of a demonstration of the capability of the technology, ok. And this is today. The promise of the future is illustrated in this slide. It talks about pitch shrink in one axis. It talks about connectivity in another axis. And embedded in these are the power efficiency numbers. Today, the EMIB interconnect hits 0.5 picojoule per bit. We know what it takes to hit less than 0.1 picojoule per bit. One-fifth the power efficiency, one-fifth better in power efficiency. And you know the real question is so, why bother and is this good enough? So, I did a very simple plot. At the top left is the rate at which off package 30 speeds have been increasing. A rough rule of thumb says they will double every 2.1 years. And I think they put in the 2.1 years so that they would be convinced they were not kidding. If they said 2, then you would have been suspicious. But 2.1 makes it sound like somebody really knows what they're doing. In reality, my suspicion is it's anywhere between 2 to 3 years, maybe 4, but the point is that there is a doubling. The second is look at the demand for bandwidth.  The bandwidth demand is on an accelerating cadence. But the most interesting graph in my mind is the bottom. The bytes per flop, as in compute moves faster than the bandwidth, hence the bytes per flop actually goes down until you come to somewhere in the 2018-ish point where we introduce HPM on the package and this curve started to slowly taper up. The right challenge here is to get this curve back to where it started and then above. Though that, which is why you should scale interconnects in packages. How do you physically scale interconnects? We have EMIB in high volume production today, capable of 55 microns or less. We have Foveros capable of 50 to 36 microns and can go down as much as solder will let us. We have two technologies that are deep into development or advanced pathfinding where we can not just stack one end of the other, but overhang them. And by overhanging them, get better connectivity. And then transition from solder to copper. So the point is even though we have fairly good connectivity today, we have plans for much better connectivity. There are other aspects of heterogeneous integration which were just as interesting. I wish I had more time to talk about this, but let me just quickly fly through this. This is a table that explains to you how if you send electrical signals, you get how well they perform. For instance, if I send an electrical signal through copper using the PCIe Gen 6, I can go about 12 inches before I need to boost it. I have a power efficiency number of a certain value. If I transition from this to optical, I get significantly higher bandwidth density. I can send more signals per unit area or per unit length. I can send it to very long reaches greater than 100 meters of design correctly. Latency can be managed to be roughly equal. And if these are designed intelligently and the entire industry comes up to support this infrastructure, you can get similar power efficiency numbers. What this says is that off-package optics is slowly but surely coming to a place where it makes a lot of sense. We had taken the same idea and a couple of years ago announced the first co-packaged optics Ethernet switch, where this is not such a complex picture, but essentially what you have in the center is a switch connected to socketable optical modules that send signals out optically through fibers. The other thing we have done is the example I showed you before, where there was a single optical chip connected to the FPGA. We have a program to go to five of them funded by the federal government and conceptually quite possible. So co-packaged optics, you know the sort of in my mind at least the logical thought in the industry always was optics will replace copper. I don't believe that makes a whole lot of sense. I believe optics will complement copper and together we will deliver higher bandwidth. But I don't envision a state where we are going to replace wholesale. And I think the initial thought process were a little bit overhyped or over ambitious, but conceptually you can do better with optics if you complement copper. You can improve off-package bandwidth. You can improve reach. You can improve power efficiency. You can do new applications like resource disaggregation where memory and computer are separate or networking is separate. And there are ways of doing this which haven't been envisioned yet. The question everybody asks is, so what about thermals? You're bringing all this together. What do we do with thermals? And I think this is one place where we can add a lot of value together. In thermals it's a matter of thermal cold design and coming up with new technologies to be able to cool. If we do this right, I have a feeling that we will solve thermal problem. I don't see major showstoppers in here, but a lot of good engineering will have to happen in design materials and technologies that cool. And then this is another very quick fly by. But what we are doing is we are taking composites of different materials put together, assembled at high yield. In doing this, all kinds of materials are introduced. They will lead to all kinds of stresses. Being able to design this right, finding the right materials and being able to yield them in high volume ways will be the differentiator. So equipment, materials, process and design co-optimization. And there's a lot of opportunity in this. To be able to do this, we have to have materials characterization. We must have tools. We must have predictability. We must have metrologies to make this happen. And there are opportunities in each of these spaces. So for people starting careers in this or looking at developing careers, there's many opportunities in the future. So let me end my talk with two comments. Andy Bryant, former Intel chairman said Intel as a company, we start the ingredient, we start with the sand and everything is value added by engineers. It's our people. There's a guy, some of you may know, Rajiv Mongia, who is an ex-Purdue guy and he started to work with me. Those of you know, Rajiv know that his bit rate or rate of speech is faster than most data transmission. So I asked Rajiv, you know, can you please give me something which I can tell a whole host of Purdue engineers. So this is what he said. You know, he said we often celebrate how many boiler makers have landed on the moon than any other university, which is probably true. I saw the image of Neil Armstrong and that's kind of tough. I suspect it's kind of tough. But he said even harder is the boiler makers at Intel that are helping turn sand into gold. So I don't have much time to thank you, but this is one of my two slides. My association with Purdue goes back to more than 25 years and I always come away with conversations with Purdue engineers and Purdue faculty enriched because I learned a little bit more. Let me use my second to last slide to point out that this has been a long and a fruitful association. Professor Subbaran who is here is somebody I met when he was at IBM and he was a good soccer player by the way. I have worked with him for nearly 30 years. One of the things that I found out, you know, I was at a review in SRC and they at the end of it said, you know, other people may mess up, but Ganesh never gives a back talk. I have held that in my mind and it has always proven to be true and to the day Ganesh proves me wrong, I'm going to continue to believe this. You have a cooling technology research center that Professor Weibel runs right now which offers a lot of really good intelligent engineering advice to a lot of people like us who learn from there. To me, this is the beginning. I believe packaging research collaborations with Purdue that have fueled many of the quiet revolutions are now going to fuel some of the not so quiet revolutions. I believe that the many, many students from Purdue that have come to our shores are people who have made a difference and will continue to make a difference. I think we have to establish the right kind of infrastructure. We have to learn to collaborate in manners that we have not done before so that we can make these associations a lot more effective. You know, the sort of intellectual depth that exists in this university is tremendous. We just have to figure out ways to leverage that intellectual depth. Second to last, but I'm pretty much saying the same thing. H.I. is important. We know how to do H.I. today. We need your help to move H.I. forward. There's many challenges and I cannot imagine better people to collaborate on this than Purdue. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Robbie. This is wonderful. Thank you so much, everyone, and thank you also to our online audience. We have over 175 people attending the talk online from many places, including Intel and many universities. So, time for questions for our distinguished guests. We have the mic. So, I have a question for you. How long did it take for your invention of the EMIB to actually be commercialized? Can you give some insights into that? Yeah, I can. So EMIB was invented in 2006 or 2007, conceptualized. The value was not... The need wasn't there. The value was recognized, but the need wasn't there. There were many building blocks that did not exist, but because we had a vision of an integrated component, we knew what we needed to develop. In 2011 is when we took the original idea of the bridge and made it an embedded idea and we started working on it. It took us about two, two and a half years of real hard engineering work to prove that the first part could be built. So we announced it in 2014. So I would say about four years of good solid engineering led us to this and then a lot of process development between now and then and a number of investments along the way to keep this going. But once you convince engineering management of the value of something, they will back you. That's a good part of working at it until the senior management is technically extremely savvy. They can recognize the value of investment of this kind. So yeah, that's sort of the broad answer. And now it's in production. Can you give us an idea of what are the biggest metrology challenges facing heterogeneous integration? Yeah, let me break it up first in terms of... Metrology can be broken up in a number of ways. There are metrologies that you put in your process development in which case your challenges are getting the right level of resolution and the speed at which you get data and then how you analyze the data. So that's one class. And I'll get to the specifics also. The second type of metrology that we worry about are characterization metrologies, which means we talk about material properties kind of lightly. But understanding the behavior of a material as a function of time, temperature and humidity is a pretty complex task. To get the right class of metrology with the right level of resolution is the second class of problems I would worry about. The third is characterizing the reliability and managing to understand it kind of deal. So those are the three types. Now metrologies, typically people think of metrologies in terms of how long is something, how soon will something break, what is the smallest defect can I seek? The tendency of thought in metrology tends often to be very mechanical or visual or data bagger. But metrology can be a lot more than that. It could be surface characterization, it could be chemical characterization. And there are quite a few areas that we have not fully understood. Typical ones we kind of understand. So those broadly, in my mind, quantity of data, quality of data, speed of resolution are the big ones. And encompassing the gamut, in an ideal world if you build a part, imagine that you had a rider on that part through the entire process. And you knew exactly what was happening to that part. You would be so much better off. Today, metrologies of this nature do not exist. But there's no reason why we cannot build metrology in nature. I've always been fortunate to have Ravi when I give good talks, not when I have bad talks. And I've never heard Ravi give a bad talk. So with that, let me start. We've had MCMs for a long time. Old MCM technology on glass ceramic substrates. And we've had multi-chip modules and organic substrates for a long time. What convergence of either technology or cost drove it around, say, 2010 onwards towards heterogeneous integration and tight pitches? Three things in my mind. One is the fact that IP diversity is much more now. In the earlier part, we used to think mainly about memory, oftentimes of SRAM because it was high bandwidth accessible memory. And we were looking at controller chips, which essentially control the high computer. But I don't believe we ever went past a point where we thought about more than that. But today you can take a transceiver and optimize it on a process. Today you can take an optical chip and optimize it on a completely different process. The fact that you can now use a platform that has got high bandwidth, low, high power efficiency connections or low power connections is what has slowly but surely caused a change in thought. In addition to the fact that you want to introduce parts faster with higher yield resiliency. So, you know, I oftentimes see this both as a acceleration of past technology trends and an increase in diversity. And that's what's happening today. And then, of course, there's the economics of the whole business. Yeah. OK. Yeah, I want to ask a question. So I saw something like papers or testing on using the microfluid channel to cooling down the power electronics devices. Is there any possible, like, using the microfluid channel to cooling down the CPU cooler? Yeah. In fact, if you Google, you will find Dojo, the chip that Tesla announced a few months ago, uses microfluidics to cool. And they're not the only one, by the way. We use microfluidics in a lot of internal applications as well. Microfluidics is both an important area, as well as an interesting area of work. And I am pretty sure it is one of those technologies whose, when it's time comes, it will be proliferated. Hi, Ravi. It's a great talk. Thank you for your time. You talked a lot about the importance of interconnect and high bandwidth memory and, like, high bandwidth interconnection. But what prevents, well, at least for my mind, I come from a thermal background. So the electronics is not my strength. What prevents the complete integration of the components into one stack where you don't have a bottleneck for interconnects with a monolithic 3D technology? Why can't we completely integrate the logic and the memory into one complete volumetric component? If you look at it strictly from the perspective of somebody who's trying to optimize, if you can integrate in a single stack, you can test it and it yields very well, you can't beat it because you reduce the distance of traverse of an interconnect, which makes it intrinsically superior. It's only when you find out that the economics doesn't allow you to integrate on-dye is when you start at integrating off-dye.  There's nothing like it in terms of doubling entities, compute entities, or whatever, switching entities. You just can't beat it. So if you can do it, you should do it. If you can't do it, then think about other ways. But the way to really think about this is do both, like figure out how to integrate on-silicon and if you absolutely cannot, find the next best ways to integrate. If that makes sense. Thank you for the t-shirt as well, Matt. I had a question as well. I was wondering if you could give us your insight, maybe advice to undergraduate and graduate students that are currently studying in the broad field of semiconductors and microelectronics of what kind of skills or what kind of experience or what kind of focus would you recommend that I want to pay attention to if they want to lead this next revolution in this space? Thank you. So there are, if you were to look at areas, there are quite a few areas which are very, very promising. For instance, you know, just starting out randomly, if you were to look at IO design and how to do intelligent IO design with high bandwidth, the electrical engineers have a place to play. If you were to look at thermals, thermal management is going to be important. People who are able to understand how to design power delivery networks are also significantly important. As I said, photonics is coming into the play. People who understand photonics. Underlying methods, for instance, understanding and being able to make materials operate in integrated situations. I can point to you, by the way, material science is one of those fields which has an opportunity to dominate if we find the right classes of materials integrated at the right level. That should give you an idea that people who study material science can do it. The other thing I point out, Professor Gorey and I had lunch today. He was telling me one of his students worked on something completely different. IR imaging for biological applications. Today is one of Intel's most successful thermal engineers because he was able to take the fundamentals that carried him forward. And I think that has a message underlying in there that if we know the basics clearly, we can apply it to different things. You know, I got a degree in fracture mechanics and I very could solve integral equations very poorly and slowly compared to all my peers. But I did have a vision of solving integral equations for the rest of my life. I don't think I made a good judgment call at that time and I'm pretty lucky that I decided not to do that. I heard the mic when Professor Perollis asked the question and I was actually going to ask you about Ashish Gupta and what background and how he succeeded in Intel. But seeing that you quoted Rajiv Mongia, who is an alumnus of Purdue as well as UC Berkeley, but Rajiv's field happens to be combustion. Yes. And from what I hear, he has been successful in Intel in Seattle and Rajiv and I communicate routinely on his very beautiful photographs of birds that he watches in the upper Seattle area and so forth. So connected to that, just two examples of boiler makers working in Intel with very different dissertation backgrounds but then very different personalities. Could you comment on human characteristics and personalities that succeed in a very, very tough field that Intel is in the business for? Let me answer it in two ways. First of all, their core technical skills are tremendous. Both of them are very, very good engineers. They can and their ability to analyze, synthesize and define a path to solve is what has made them successful, even though their backgrounds were not. The other thing I believe they have is they are very good communicators. My own, I have learned over the years that if you present to any kind of audience, especially managers who listen to all kinds of stuff during the day, if you don't have a tellable story, if you are not able to say why you are there and if you are out there, you can't get extract value of a senior manager's attention, it's a complete waste of time. So their ability to communicate, I think, in addition to their technical skills has been the differentiator and the fact that they bring a certain amount of positivism to all this. And I should point out one thing. Don't ask Rajiv Mongia to send you his pictures because if he does, he'll crash your PC. It has crashed my PC twice. Right, and with this question I want to thank Ravi once again. Thank you. We're going to take a short 15-minute break. What follows after that is going to be a really interesting panel looking into the future from multiple perspectives and Ravi will also join us along with many other distinguished guests from Purdue. So we're going to reconvene in 15 minutes at 3.45. Until then, I want to really thank you for attending on behalf of the Elmore Family School of Electrical and Computer Engineering, School of Mechanical Engineering that are co-hosting this and the College of Engineering for the series. So thank you all. We will see you soon.


My name is Rachel Sanichal. I'm a program and development coordinator here at the library. And I'm very happy to have Yanin Yi here this evening to talk about her adventure and Steve's homeschooling on a 48-foot catamaran that they built in Hawaii, had two sons, and sailed around the globe homeschooling their two sons. And Yanin Yi was born in South Korea. From there, she went to Germany. Steve, who's tonight's videographer. And I've got Mary in Vienna, went to Hawaii to build the catamaran.  And so I'm really excited to hear the rest of the story. And there are snacks for after the program. There are books for sale. And I'm going to bring up some water in a moment. So please help me welcome Yanin Yi. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Rachel, for organizing. And I'm kind of glad it didn't snow to this year. I was worried about the weather. That's one of the reasons why I postponed it to March, thinking that February would be into snowing. And so I'm talking about my book, and it's called Ring of Fire. And first I started to write this book for my grandchildren because I have two children, two sons. And they are half Korean and half the other white. And then when I see my grandchildren, they are already one fourth Korean and then three fourths the other. So I thought maybe they would really disappear into something that they wouldn't really remember. So that's the way I started to start writing. And then I kept going. So that's why the book became first, the 70 page. It's mostly about my life in Korea. And after that, it goes to, like Rachel said, I was going to Europe. And then I met Steve in the language school in Southern Germany. And then we went off to Hawaii, and third boat. So first part, I talk a lot about my grandmother. And my grandmother and my mother, they raised me after the Korean War. And so we pretty much grew up and lived in a very poverty stricken, like a little ghetto, like area. But my grandmother has a great character. She was born in 1888, the year of a tiger. That's the way I figured out her age, because my son was an honor, the one that's living in a very born in the year of a tiger. So I had to subject by 12 years of set of time. And then so it came out 1888. That fit my grandmother's age. And she was a daughter of a healer of Chinese medicine at that time. And yet she wasn't sent to school because she was a girl. And her half-brothers were sent to school. And later on, they became principals and the teachers. And so she was during the occupation, during the occupation in 19, so 1913. So she was young. And I think she was married some of those times. And she was married to a very poor man who liked gambling. So when she died, she was left with a lot of debt. And so she couldn't manage her family and children. So she went to Japan. Eventually, she reunited with children.  And so I wrote a lot about her. And my mother and one of her siblings were born in Japan during the war. And so she also talked about the fact that she, when she was 13, she went to school in the mornings and in the afternoons, she was in a factory, ammunition factory. And so I was trying to figure out if that was because she was Korean children and maybe all the children at that age were spending their time in the afternoons in factories. So that I don't really know about my grandmother was there. So I'm going to read the part that my grandmother was really quite a character. And so I think I need glasses. I'm at an age where I cannot see too well with glasses and I cannot see too well without glasses. So harmony means that it's in Korean as grandmother. So that's what I refer to in my book. Harmony was annoyed when someone stood around with their hands in their pockets as if there weren't anything to do. When my cousin did this, she saw that their pants pocket shot. Once my cousin put on one of his new pair of pants with the pockets on shot, he was flabbergasted. He held his hands in the air. Oh, I left with exaggerated gusto at his dismay. And harmony gave him a user's stony look. I see a strange parallel between my harmony and Zorova the Greek. He says, I have hands and they do the job. That is what my harmony would have said so. I'm convinced that harmony and Zorova have met. If not, they should. These two people knew how to make things work. So when I think about all the things my grandma did all those years, I lived with her until I was 16. And my mother was working wherever she could find work. And so that was just the, OK, we didn't have anything. The only thing we had was a very clean room. I talked about that. That's like, it's extra clean because we didn't have any furniture, so we didn't have anything. We just had a little thing to put our clothes together. And I even thought about that. I remember her in her typical Korean traditional dress. It's called a hanbok with very pork cumbersome, big dresses. And usually it's all white. And then they are quite clean. I don't ever see, remember seeing her being like a grimy and always clean. And then I had to help her holding the end with ironed holding the end like, not like the iron boards here. And so now I'm getting older myself. And I have two grandchildren. And so I think when I was born she was in her 60s. It's good, my grandmother was 40s in the 60s. So she kind of really raised me and two of my cousins. So then my mother was born in Japan during the war, during the war, during occupation. And so she was the youngest one out of four. And she was very optimistic. And a very happy person to begin. You can really tell the difference because she was protected by all the siblings. And but they couldn't get away from there being Koreans. And they lived in their own little ghetto-like setting. But basically she was a quite happy kind of person. So like I mentioned that she worked in ammunition factory when she was 13 years old. And after that, I think when she was 14, they were in 1945, when she was 14. And then they went to take him back to Korea. So she worked, the teenagers lived in a very kind of hard time.  In spite of the circumstantial hardship, Oma kept her innate sense of beauty throughout her life. She was quick to pick up dance steps. And she was a popular dance partner at a party. She loved to dress fashionably and sewed and knitted without patterns. She often said, after visiting a store, mine would be better than that store in the store. And hers was better. She improved the style by adding her own knitted or crocheted orders. Art folded into her life seamlessly as if war never happened in her lifetime. And so I was born in 1948, three years after World War II, 1945. And then Korean War happened in 1950. So I was two years old. So my grandmother and my mother, my grandmother and my mom, and my caring me and three of us moved around. I think they spent some time on a ship because they were evacuating the town. And they were moving from one town to another, looking for a place to live and stay alive. I lived until 16. Until 16, my grandmother was with me. And then from 17 to 19, 18, I lived with my mom. And then my grandmother moved in with us later on. And I went to pre-med in Busan when I was 19. And then during the school break, I went to Thailand. And then from Thailand, they were talking about the possibility for me to go to Germany. And I didn't really know at the time that apparently South Korea and West Germany had a very sympathetic relationship because both of the countries were divided nations from the onset of the Cold War, 1947. So a lot of our Koreans were exported to West Germany as laborers, nurses. And so they really welcomed South Koreans. And then, of course, North Koreans were on the other side in East Germany. And so I didn't know too much of that. And then my parents had a lot of German friends. So they started talking about my possibility of going to Germany. So I did. I went to Munich. And I had to register as a student. And then I went to one of the language schools, which is I required the language and requirement for me to continue my school. And I met Steve in Southern Germany, one of the language schools. And from there, we got married, and we went to Hawaii. And we built the 48-foot catamaran. And it took us, I think, three years. And three years to launch the catamaran, we called the Merakai, Song of the Sea in Hawaiian. And then it took us another three, four years to equip with a mast or the hardware and things that we need. And also, we had to get used to how to sail the boat. And not only just learning to sail itself, but we also had to learn how to handle Merakai itself. It's almost like raising a kid. Because this was specifically a boat that we built the boat and the designers. So there are only two of these boats. So we don't know how this boat will react, how we're going to handle it in a different kind of weather. And if there are some kind of stuff out of boats, then they have histories how to handle the boat. So that was a lot of fun thing in Hawaii. We were sailing from island to island and finding out. And all the channels can be very rough between the islands. And so we used a lot of testing all out. And also, there was a good place for us to learn how to navigate. We didn't know how to. Or you can see where we are and read the chart. But then we actually had to learn to navigate a celestial navigation. And so we learned to do that between the islands. And of course, you can see the land. But then when I started doing that, and then I was going by the boat. And then I learned something called a line of position. And I drew a line of position. And what it says is this line of position. I hope it was on this line. So I got so excited. I actually made a line. So I said, oh, look at that. I drew this line. And it goes right through here. But actually, when you go out there, it doesn't really know. So that was the beginning. We learned how to sail. And we made two different trips. First trip was in 1979. November, we left Hawaii. And then we were supposed to be testing our boat for the first ride from Hawaii to Bora Bora. It took us 21 days. And that was quite exciting because we really didn't know what it was like to sail for 21 days. I think about 2,000 miles. And we were very diligent taking sun shots every day and drawing the lines and making the positions every day. And then I think on 20 days. So it was at night before. We were expecting to see Bora Bora the next morning. And that night, I was in my midnight watch. I usually went from midnight to either two or from two to four hours, something like that. And I think we did four hours, I don't remember. And night, maybe we did two hours. And the weather was good. And Bora was reminding, taking care of herself.  And all of a sudden, I was getting this radio reception from Hawaii. And I was going, oh, my god. I think, oh, I cannot be here. I cannot be. It just cannot be. So I went about 2,000 miles away. So I was awake. And then I was going, oh, my god. I went down and looked at the chart. And I come back up. And it was dark. And you cannot see anything else. And I don't know everything. I don't know all the stars. So I was just so worried going up and down. And then I couldn't really tell Steve that this is what happened. And then I was going. And so it was his watch is coming up. And I didn't say anything. I just went to bed. And I couldn't go to sleep. I couldn't tell him. And then I think I sort of fell asleep. And then also he says, yeah, I love. There's a Bora Bora right ahead of us. And I looked at it. I was like, oh, my god. And then I think I fell asleep. And then I ran around. I told the people and then other sailors. They said that happens all the time. That's the cloud formation. And so I thought that was really spooky. And I have this one section in a dirt room. So I think Denmark is kind of fun to hear this call this time of the year. One day in the dirt rooms, Steve decided to go for a swim. He stripped and stood on the top of the cabin as the boys yelled, how about the sharks, dad? He brushed their question off in a dismissive way with his hand gesture and poised it to dive into the oily looking, smooth water. And the boys shouted, look, shark. We ran to the station and saw the shark spin, silently slicing through the oily water as it circled the megalocytes, the boys through in some perishable items. And without hesitation, the shark attacked them. After that incident, we didn't talk about swimming in the ocean again. Instead, we walked around on the hot deck with wet t-shirts and headgear hiding behind sunglasses to escape from the heat and glare of the sun. We wallowed in the hot sun that stole all the air from us. And when we saw dark clouds on a distant horizon, we got excited. The rain and wind gave us a relief from the heat and water to wash the salty deck. If the rain lasted long enough, we caught fresh rainwater in plastic water bottles. We ran, we read the rhyme of the ancient mariner to dramatize where we were. We read this every time, four times, we crossed the equator. Day after day, we stuck, no breath, no motion, as either as a painted ship upon a painted ocean, water, water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink. And then we saw a cloud in the distant horizon, and the glassy pane of water changed into ripples. Formless clouds moved into the hazy horizon, bringing in blue sky. It was as if someone blew a whistle, signaling a train to shift gears. With the sound and sights of our hoisting sails, we moved out of the equatorial bathrooms and entered into the southern trade wind. The site of Orion was long gone, but now we had a sudden cross. So it was a lot of exciting points through the gargoyles. A lot of times people say, oh, it must be very peaceful and very nice. It's really hard, number one. Number two, I find that being in the ocean is never really quiet. It's usually something, the raiders or slabs or a side of the water, a side of the hull, or something falls off, or something always happens.  And so we sailed, like I mentioned, like we crossed the equator four times. That means that we went to the south, and then we came back. We did all the Palomadian Island in the Pacific area. And then from Samoa, we went back to Hawaii. And so we crossed the equator. And then second trip, which was our last trip, was in 1984, February. And we left Hawaii. And at the time, we went all the way to New Zealand, Australia. And then we went to Mediterranean. And then we went up to Thailand, Bali. And so that's why we made two different trips. That's what I mentioned, four times crossing the equator. And we were really used to sailing in a trade man area. So by time when we start going to the Indian Ocean, their wind pattern is different. And also especially when we went through the Red Sea. And I think we spent a little too much time in Thailand because we had an engine problem. And it was really nice hanging out in Thailand. But we spent too much time waiting for the engine part that was coming from. I don't know where it was coming from. It's the end of our Japanese engine. So I don't know if it came from Japan or it was coming from Bangkok. But so it took really long time to get the engine part. We finally got the engine part. And we put it together. And we drove out. And it blew up. So we came back. I don't think we even went out 20 miles. I don't remember. And then we sat there another four longer time that we need to. So when we left Thailand, went to Sri Lanka and Oman, the tip of the south of the Arabian peninsula. And then went to Yemen. And from there, Yemen, we went up to the Red Sea. And then by then, already we were against the prevailing wind. Because this Red Sea weather pattern is determined by the two big weather systems. One is in the south of the Indian Ocean. The other one is on the North Mediterranean Sea. So we were sailing against the elements by then. It was a little too late. So it was extremely beautiful, that Red Sea. But you can also see these flames from the oil drain rigs. You can see a few of them from the distance. But you can see them really clearly. And then one side, and then the other side is we will be sailing really close to Saudi Arabia. So it's like a beautiful desert. It's just extremely beautiful desert. And we're so between Saudi Arabia and the African continent. And when we're sailing against the elements, it just becomes like the waves. Like when you're going to big oceans, Pacific. And they're coming from long ways and very powerful. But this in the Red Sea, they don't have very much area. So the ocean is really choppy. And it's like we hold time. It's like hobby horsing all the way. And then we are catching incredible number of fish. When we go sailing in a big ocean, like in the Pacific, we go in the stretch of the area. Or it's just like it would be 200 fish. We catch 200 fish almost as much as we want. So sometimes Steve throws the, we tell them, we don't want fish today. We don't want fish today. And then he said one day he was saying, you know, I can see fish right there. There's all these birds flying in. I can catch fish right now. I said, OK, just a small ton of fish. And here he comes, the big ton of fish. So then we go to the area.  And but in Red Sea, amazingly, you get different kind of fish almost every day. And they're really beautiful. I think they still have the really shallow reefs. And so it's a very interesting place. And then it's also Red Sea. The water is very salty, because that's really concentrated. And there's very small water, kind of, etc., like small in the north and south. And so our deck, because the water is so choppy. And we are going against the wind. So like hot, kind of, having up and down. And then so we get a lot of spray on deck. And it was like our deck was almost becoming like a beach, because it was really salty. Because it was really a lot of salt. And so that was our adventure, some sailing in Red Sea. I'd like to open the floor, so a question if you'd like to talk about it. Also, I keep people interested that my boys were home schooled. And let me see. Stepaki, the older one, I think went to school maybe three years. And then by the time when he went to Mediterranean Sea in 1986, he was 16. And we already arranged that he would be accepted into Rhode Island, Lyceum, outside of Leiden. So it would be outside of Den Hard in Netherlands. So when you reached the Mediterranean, there was May, it was May, almost the end of May. And then August, we took a train from France to Netherlands to take our kids to school. So he finished the Leiden High School, they called it a baccalaureate program. And then he went to school one year in Hawaii. So it was three years altogether in school. And he went to Amherst College after that. And then my younger one was, he was in Netherlands for two years in school. And then he went to Caribbean to spend time with Steve in two years. And then he went to New England in his teaching environments. And so I think you can do a lot of things when kids are home schooled or living on a boat. And all that is at home. So I'm writing about home on strange shores. So that's my other project. So here's Steve's here. He's the one who built the boat. And I guess a lot of people know him with his boat, the one that he had in Leic Champlain. But he built this big caravan of medical medical in Hawaii. And so if you have any questions, I'd like to leave the room. Yes. Just curious, were the children born on the boat? They were born in Hawaii, but, you know, so they were born. You didn't deliver them on the boat? They were born on the boat? Yeah, I mean, they were born in a hospital.  So I was curious how that worked. But they were born in Hawaii? Yeah. You just have a plan to do it? My honor, that's living in Waterbury right now. Very, very right now. But he was actually very good, and he wouldn't get seasick. So whenever water gets really rough, and I need to get some kind of beans or something, and I would all send them out, send them to get, you know, go to that under the bunk, and I need this and that. And then, you know, he doesn't mind. He's kind of like, are you all right? Because, yeah, so he takes things out. And then, of course, he finds out all of those in my secret stash of cookies. When you were in Hawaii, was Melaka your home? You lived on the boat while you were in Hawaii? Pardon me? Did you live on the boat while you were in Hawaii? Yes, we lived in, let me see. We, before Melaka, we had another small little kind of whale boat, and then kind of turned it into a place, little place we can live. And there was only, I think, two years. I lived on, no, maybe three years on land, in an apartment. And the rest of the time, so we were all on the boat. So I was in Hawaii from 1970 to 1984. Did you study the different types of sea, the different types of fish, wherever you were, or how did you know that when you saw the sharks, not to swim with them, because at some places, that's OK. Some places, maybe not OK. So how did you know what to expect, where you were, if it was OK to jump in or so far or not? I think, for example, the shark story that we have is like, I think in the middle of the ocean like that, I think sharks, you know, they would be probably looking for something to eat. I think the safe shark is what, hammerhead shark, stuff like that. Those are relatively small ones. And they live mostly on the close to reef, shadow wise. And so I don't really know all the details, but it's sort of rough guess of these kind of things. I mean, I wouldn't venture into doing that. And then, so like, I think for Steve, it was like a big adventure swimming in the middle of the ocean. And but I would be afraid. You think like, what if it kind of sails away? Or what if the current is so strong, you know? And even though you don't, I don't see it, then maybe I kind of can't come in, but yeah. Did you have bad weather or did you have any storms that you had to survive? Oh yeah, OK. So I didn't talk anything about the bad weather. I think the bad weather, we were really careful. And we planned, I mean, there's a big chart of looking at all those weather patterns. And so I think there's one trip we made from New Zealand to Australia, the Tasman Sea. And we, I think again, we were kind of late. Because the boys wanted to go skiing. And June 21st, the June 20th, manhood opens their ski. And that was like a big thing, because a lot of US skiers, they fled down there. They said like, without manhood in New Zealand, there wouldn't be a skier, because that's their winter. So it's the first day of the summer, their winter, they opened. So we thought, well, we have to go. It's like we have to go. So of course, we got to spend a little too much time in New Zealand. And so we left the, and I talk about this one in the Tasman Sea, Galea. And so I think I wrote down how many days. We were there several days in that sea. And it kind of feels slow, slow. And it's like when you're going, it's like calm before the storm. And just exactly that's what happened. It's like, well, I couldn't get out of the cabin. And then you know, the cloud is right on top of you. It's like so, that makes it so cold. And I think it was, I wrote about it.  And then I cannot see anything except my red compass. Compass that's red. And you kind of watch there. And then, so sit down. And then you kind of, the wind takes you to the top of the wave. And you can feel it. You can feel it. It's like wind blowing. And you're on the top. There's like, magically, there's like a pause. And then you're almost like, now it's going to go. And then we just ride on the side of the wave.  I don't know. It's just incredibly big waves. And then you go down. And then when you follow me, it goes like, we hit the wave, just like this. And then you kind of almost like hitting the stone. It's like, oh. And then we do that again. And then we do that again. I don't know how many nights. And then, well, we couldn't go make it to Australia from there. So we end up sailing back to, back to, we left New Caledonia. We sailed from New Caledonia to New Zealand. And then we were trying to go from New Zealand to Australia. And so we couldn't really make the crossing. And so we sailed back to New Caledonia. And from there, we sailed down to Australia. Do your sons both sail? Yeah. Actually, my son, the older one, Stibaki, is somewhere, I think, he, somewhere, it's just things are getting really, weather was kind of rough. And I always kept getting sick, seasick. And so I told him, I said, Stibaki, do you want to, do you want to do navigation?  And he was saying, oh, of course he liked it. He just asked, like, sure, OK. So I made a little cheat sheet for myself. So I showed him what it is. And man, he learned so quick. And then it goes up. So yeah, he navigated from, I think, half of the weather. He was, this second trip was, he was 14 when we left. So I think probably when he was 15, he was navigating. And I didn't have to do it. It's just like, you go ahead and do it. So were you asking if they still sail? Yeah, I was hearing about that. My son, my older son died. And the younger one doesn't sail very much. But he's done sail very much. But he kind of made his own little kayak. And so he has a lot of interest. But doesn't particularly go sailing. He's the one that teaches at Dartmouth, you said? He's told a lot. Yeah. What happened to your older son, if I might ask? He killed himself. Oh, I'm sorry. How many years were they homeschooled and did it? Were they ahead or behind other kids their age or they went back to organized schools? Well, I think Anno, a younger one, was, he was two years ahead, I think. He didn't know, when I took, when we took them to Europe, I talked to the, I think there was an English school. And he was in the English school for one year. And then he went to Dutch school later on. And because of the, he wasn't proficient in Dutch yet. My older son was already there. The Baccalaureate program was in English. So he didn't have to change. So he, so I actually didn't, I myself didn't know what the procedure was for him to be accepted into school and what the level of, I think they said they're going to accept him. And then they want to find, I guess they want to find out what grade he was in. And because we told him, I mean, he was homeschooled.  I told him. And then he comes out and I said, how did he go? He says like, oh man, I don't know. And I said, what do you mean? And then the person conducted the exam and says, oh he did very well. And then I said, he said he did very well. And he says, I don't know how, because I just, it's like I had to stop because I had no idea what I'm doing. And then I think there was a replacement test. So they just give you this long test until he cannot handle it. Then they know where to place him. So he was two years ahead. What, when you were fishing, what type of equipment did you have for fishing? And what was the largest that you caught? So I think lure. It's called a lure with different kind of skirts and sometimes it's like a spoon and those kind of things. And some, I think we even caught sharks sometimes. And then I have pictures of fish like some are like almost up to here, about five feet. Can you talk a little bit about what the boys did in a day? Did you have planned lessons that you gave them or did they just simply learn by doing and fishing? And did you have a million books down there that happened? Did they just pick that one and he got to port? Well, there was a, yeah, we had a lot of books. And I really believe in that reading is the most important thing. And I always say, all the problems you read, even the mathematical problems, you read carefully. Answer is right there. They will tell you what they want. So they were very keen in reading. And both of them are very, very good readers. And so I don't have to worry about it because they were really good readers. They became really good readers. Number one, we didn't have TV. And so we all come sit around the red when it rained. Of course in Hawaii, it doesn't rain that much. But then statistically, in Hawaii, they say 300 days, sunny days, and 60 days, rainy days. But I don't remember raining for 60 days in Hawaii. Every day also say cloudy days and rainy days. So he did a lot. I had a regiment every day from 8 to noon we are studying. So we have this regular progression of the science, either science or math. And so we continuously are doing them every day for 8 to noon. So they often in the harbor, they also kind of other yachties with the kids. And so I think most people, at least the ones that we know, have a similar schedule. So all the kids know, no, we cannot go there until noon. So everybody doing something. I don't know if they do the same, but for us anyway, you cannot come here until noon. After that, you can come into whatever you want to do. So that was kind of our own regiment. And so Steve had a lot of interest in it. Because his background is philosophy. So a lot of those interesting books. So the kids liked to, they were exposed and they liked to read. And on the board, we don't have anything. So they would make their own little drama. And they played music, piano, and guitar. Which languages do they speak? English. Just English. Was that problem in the different port style? Not really. That really makes the English speakers kind of lazy. If I'm Korean, then I have to learn something more universal. But English pretty much gets you around. And then a second question I had is, did you have a refrigeration and a water maker all modern? No water maker. Refrigerator, we had a few times. It was like a propane refrigerator. And I think it probably broke down. So we didn't have refrigerators not too long. So when you caught fish, you had to either eat it or give it away. Well, when we were in the harbor, and it was kind of nice because we just throw the gear net, then we catch a lot of fish. And then we kind of give it to people in the village. They really like to give fish. And when we are in the ocean, we kind of look and dry them. So we lay them, and then you can kind of marinate them and put it in the sun because there's no flies or bugs. You can kind of put it out there. And you can make a turkey. But if it's in oil, we kind of cook it, and then we kind of eat it. What's your favorite subject if you could study or reflecting on whether it be science or math or astronomy? Or do you have a particular place that you really enjoy literature or reading about or experiencing? Yeah, actually, I like astronomy. Astronomy. Did all your navigation charts, were they in English? Yeah. Well, it's called a hydrographic office publication. So they publish everything. And I mean, everything looks like a text table. Here's a pretty big thing like this, and you open it. And then with it in papers, and then kind of, I don't know, hundreds and thousands of pages.  And they have everything. It's just very interesting to read. Because if you're going to go in a certain place, and we usually kind of get the tour guide thing, and try to eat it available, and read. And then when you go into this hydrographic office publication, they tell you everything like they say about the historical weather pattern and the current what happened, and wind patterns. But then you're just sometimes, I don't think, our brain is able to kind of process everything to make sense out of it. But it's all there, unbelievable. How did you plan for medical issues, or were you worried that maybe there was something you didn't have with you, or was thinking like first thing, a kid or something like fishing, if you get hurt? Yeah, I think now I'm older. I might be thinking about those guys. I was young and dumb, and we were all pretty healthy. So we had necessary precautions, and then necessary first aid stuff. But in the ocean, your captain, those kind of things, and here pretty well, because it's salty. It doesn't affect quite as much, I don't think. So I don't think we had any kind of problems. Did you originally decide you would circumnavigate the globe and then decide against the Atlantic Ocean at some point? Did you have an ambition to go all the way around it? Well, I think it's usually it was his. But anyway, it did make sense. The reason why I agreed to do this was my kids would be OK. And there are things that he wants to do, so I will do it. And then when all the kids are 16, we want to take them back, take them to Europe, because that's where we met. And so they will finish the school. And then things will work out. At that time, it kind of looked like it's going to work. And I didn't have the circumnavigation as a part of the big goal of life. And I kind of feel like that was sort of like a lifestyle. But I mean, did you have setbacks? The voyages that you took down to the Tasman Sea, your temple, and the Bora Bora, did you plan it all out? Or did you sort of play it by ear as you went along? Well, when we went on a trip, we planned. And then we said we kind of knew the boat. And it's 2,000 miles. It's going to take about 20 days. And then it took 21 days for us to go there. And so it was a, and then after that, when we originally, when we left Hawaii to go to Bora Bora, and then we were going to come back, there was also the time when they were doing other boats, boats called that boat. I'm sorry. The one that they had an experimental from Hawaii to Bora Bora. You mean the Hokulea? Yeah, Hokulea. They built the Hokulea to prove the navigation, Polynesian navigation. And so they sailed with the Polynesian type of Hokulea, was built with the modern material. But then both the design and everything was the original. It was like Kantiki, the higher. Yeah, except that this Hokulea is a lot more sophisticated and Kantiki was almost like a raft, more like a raft. So they were doing that around the same time. We were, no, I think we left before Hokulea did. And then when we came back, that's when the Hokulea was coming back or something like that. So we were going to do that. We're going to go to Bora Bora and come back just to see how we do out in the ocean. And so instead of coming back directly from Bora Bora to Hawaii, we went further to West and the Cook Islands. And then we sort of made a triangle of the Polynesian islands and all the way to Samoa. And Samoa is further, quite a bit of West. So the further west you go, the harder to come back. You've got to be against the Northeast trade. And so that trip took almost a year. So that was actually when we went to, from Bora Bora we went to Tahiti, Papaiti.  We did a chartering. There's American doctors having a convention. So they came on our boat and we took them out sailing. So we made money, we did it for a week. And so we had enough money so we sailed all the way to Samoa and then we came back. So it was sort of impromptu, but then there was a kind of plan. But then mostly we planned ahead. Do you ever run into other ships sailing? Like other people were running into? That's crashing, it's like, hey, there's another ship over there. Yeah, we said a few, not the people that, I think the small boat, a few of them. So we call them on the radio sometimes. And one time I think we are outside of a Bali.  So we were afraid maybe we might get a pirate coming. That's the area, there's a pirate. So we were really using our engine a lot. And then we were running out of fuel. So there was a big ship was passing. So we radioed them. We need a fuel and let us, the address will send you a check. And if you drop some fuel, there was no problem. So he feared about half of the tank thing. And then they dropped it in the water. And so it was quite a chore to retrieve that into the dinghy. We had to lower our dinghy, and then you have to go and then retrieve it onto the boat so you can sail it on. So we can use fuel. But then yeah, so we met a ship like that. And then if you go to, in the Pacific, we didn't see that many boats or one or two. And but when you go to the like Malaysia, that area, that's one of the busiest sailing routes. Because all those ships going back and forth, all those things from China to where they were, from all those stuff from Korea or Singapore. So that's just a really busy area. So you see the ship all over the place. Were all of your destination ports busier destinations in like larger countries? Or did you go to sort of more remote places as well? Yeah, we really spent, we had a lot of remote places. But you know, we always end up going to, we had to check in first. So in a specific lot of places, like Fiji, for example, it's, you know, the Suva, the main harbor is really big and they have everything. But it's still, you just go next time and it will be remote. And actually in Fiji was when my son was windsurfing on the surf and he was catching fish. When he was windsurfing, he threw the lure out. And then he caught fish and he put it in the backpack. And then he came back with a number of fish and then we're saying, and then fish was bent because in the backpack. And then he's so happy that he, that the sister, I'm going to go to this, I called the Club by Tasi, that's where we kind of anchored off. And so he said, I'm going to go sell my fish there. So he did, he made the money. I think I remember it was eight New Zealand dollars. And he was so happy, I think we got a picture of him holding the eight dollars. Can you describe your boat? Is it two, was it two punches and a cabin? Yeah, so we had a bridge, it's a really big boat. It's like a 48 footer deck. And how high or how close to the water were you? Well, it's maybe four feet from the water line to the cabin, to the deck of the hull. And then so there's another cabin inside between the bridge. So the cabin, the boat is a 48 footer and deck. And then it's a 16 feet wide, no, 24 feet wide. 22. 22? 22, OK, so. And then we got inside the cabin, it's actually 16 by 16 on the bridge. And so that was divided into four, so four 8 by 8 sections. So first thing when you come in, that's galley.   And then boys had their bunks in the hull. So you chose that design because of its, you could sleep so many people and it was very stable? I mean, catamaraners, they almost never tip over, right? We can. Actually, catamaraners will tip over. But this is how it gets really people. I mean, we're talking about the catamaran that's tipping over will be like hobby cat and small ones. Because they are really going, an optimum, they can go as fast as they can. So they're really, half of the hull is hanging out there in the air. So I think it was a, the choice was sort of like a maze, because Steve met the designer. And he was building. And we were right on the, we sent, we rented a lot together. So we were right next to him. So. Can you talk about the title of the book? What it shows there? It's a Ring of Fire. So that's actually a geographical name. Those are the islands all around the rim of a Pacific ocean. So I think, what is it? Johnny Cash had a, I didn't really know if he had a song about the Ring of Fire. So mine is more like, because we lived so much time and sailed a lot of it in Ring of Fire. In the Pacific, Hawaii, and all those islands we sailed, those are all part of the Ring of Fire. What's it like now that the book is done? How does it feel to have this book done? I don't know, there's, I think when you write, you're kind of something like this, there's always somebody who complains.  But overall, I think the reception has been great. And. What was the difficult part of writing it? Maybe there wasn't one, but was there a place? Yeah, my son's death. I didn't go in too much of details, but that was very hard. And, you know, other things in the course of it. Well, I think the real difficulty was also trying to get the things straight. And so in that way, it was helpful. And Steve kept good ships wrong. So when I was writing, I didn't want to take his ships all the way. So I told him, why don't you just send me the time that we arrived, where we went, what time. I kind of knew most of it. But then when I started writing, it seemed like, oh, no, I've got the date mixed up here. And so instead, he said he took a copy of all the pages and he sent it to me. So that was helpful. How did you end up in Vermont? Because you took the Vermont. I mean, how did you end up in Vermont? OK, my son was accepted to Amherst College. And I was talking to a friend of mine. I met on the boat. And she's in Hawaii a long time ago. And she lived in Platsburg. So I told her, I'm going to move to somewhere close to our development school.  She's right across the Champlain Lake. So the Lake Champlain. So I said, OK, so that's why I came to Vermont. I'm glad I did. First, I want to say thank you for taking so much time with all these questions. So thank you for that. I'm curious, did either or both of you grow up sailing or have an interest in sailing? Because I'm curious, it's not a decision that most people come to and say, we're going to build a huge camera and get the ocean. Have kids. So how did that life-changing decision happen? No, I think it's mostly from him, really. So it's going to ask the company. I think I would remember him saying once. Yeah, and I think I was outdoors when we called it. He was a deterioration to move from Lincoln, the Brassel Ranch, to ideally, Florida. And anyway, it took me a while as I'm not even outdoors. So I got the outdoors bug and travel with my father. And you didn't even mention this in the book, but I think it's worth mentioning to give you special credit that when we were sailing in the South of Sydney, whenever we would import mostly, see a Korean fishing boat, we want their food. So and they're going to our company as a family. The pre-intentional one, that was part of the state Korean government's way of dealing with context. But if you had a record, you could choose to go fishing instead of prison. And getting a record in those days was easy. So my point is these were really educated people and not our typical criminal. And what we learned from them is that the last thing in the world, a proper Korean woman would do is go on a boat and pretend that you're just going to sail. And I don't know if Yena and her age ever was aware of that. But we were made aware of it by Koreans that only little life is this. Anyway, that was taking my hand off the Yena that she didn't care about what people thought. When you grew up in Japan, I spent a year in Japan. My mom was born in Japan. Did you spend some time in Japan yourself? No. I was wondering, I spent a year as a teenager in Kyoto and I found that Koreans were discriminated against. Very much so by the Japanese. There was a Korean school near us. And the Koreans were not allowed to associate with the Japanese kids at all. I think that's the way I understand. But since I haven't been there, I don't know the things, how it is working. But then, very much so, as far as I know, she can be very old because I lived in Korea almost 50 years ago. Until then, in some places, that's still true, that Koreans never become Japanese, even if they can be third generation. They still treat them that way? Well, yeah, they don't say so. And it's not really on the radar of our local news consumption. But it is very much so, yeah, as far as I know. So there's a, I think actually in Vermont, there was a troupe, they were doing dancing and they called it about something, three, something. So there was about forgiveness of something. And then there was about Japan and China and Korea. There's all those dance and they were all trying to make peace. So instead of somebody, we went in there and said, guess who needs to apologize here? So I think what I'd like to do is actually introduce Steve Law. You know, I mentioned him as Steve before. But Steve was here about failure. Nana, you live with your husband Fred in Annhurst, no? Yeah, and close to Greenfield. So thank you both, Fred and Steve, for being here and supporting Nana in tonight's presentation. And we have some refreshments and books if you want to. And thank you, Nana. This is quite a story for the channel.


What's going on guys it's your boy DPJ here today with another destiny video and in today's video We have top five funny reactions of the week now headphone users be warned People in this video be screaming like bitches So you may just want to turn down that volume But guys if you enjoyed the video if you're gonna leave a like I would appreciate the support Subscribe for them epic destiny videos and I'll catch you on the next one. Peace out until next time Oh That's like a reaction of He lost Okay


Hi everyone, welcome back to our YouTube channel. My name is Jolie Greenbaum. I'm Mary Kirick's Executive Assistant and today we're going to be talking about forms and spousal sponsorship applications. So I think forms are the part of the application that clients are most worried about and that's completely normal because forms are extremely tedious and require attention to detail. So we often suggest to people that if you're not comfortable doing paperwork or you're not especially detail oriented that you hire a representative because truthfully forms are the part of the application that require the least amount of errors. There can be absolutely no errors in the forms. There have been times where we've heard clients that have submitted applications without representative where they had accidentally forgotten to sign a section of the form. There had been a gap in the dates or they'd simply forgotten to check off a single box and that resulted in the application being sent back fully, completely delaying the application process and nobody wants it. So when you hire our firm to do your spousal sponsorship application we work together with you to complete these forms. So what that means is that we work in helping you to fill it out and then prior to our submission of the application we will double, we will triple check to make sure that the form is filled out completely, fully, and accurately. So I think the most important thing about immigration forms is that there can be absolutely no gaps in the dates. So that means there are certain sections where you need to fill out about your work history, your education history, your activity over a certain amount of years, and stuff like that. So you really need to make sure that the dates line up perfectly. So there can't be even a gap of a month. Everything needs to go from some sections, it's from five years, from ten years. For those five years or for those ten years there can't even be a gap of a single month. So be sure that when you're completing out these forms that there's a flow for five years or for ten years without any gaps. It's also important to ensure that you complete every section. You can't forget to complete a section. So with that comes reading all the instructions and making sure that you complete every section necessary for your specific case. And something else that we do with our clients is that when it comes time to actually signing the forms we provide them signing instructions because it is just as equally important to remember to not just sign everywhere that needs to be signed, but to make sure that every section that doesn't need to be signed is not signed. And to be honest this can be very confusing. The instructions are a little bit ambiguous and maybe not necessarily as easy to understand. So that's why we help our clients and we instruct them exactly who needs to sign where and on what forms. So with this we find that in submitting an application the forms always need to be completely and 100% accurate because otherwise as I said earlier you run the risk of having the application sent back or in the worst case scenario being downright refused simply because the forms were not completed accurately. At our office we always wait to complete and sign the forms at the very end of the application process. We feel this is really important because it's always one important to have fresh signatures and even more importantly we find that form versions can actually change. So it's important to verify with on the IRCC website that you're actually using the newest version of the form because if by accident you fill out a form and it's last month or last year's version again you run the risk of having the application be sent back and then ultimately delaying the application process. So if you have any questions regarding immigration forms for spells of sponsorship applications please feel free to contact our office and we'll be more than happy to assist you. Thank you for watching and we'll see you next time.