Hey survivors in this video. I'm going to be talking about how Narciss provoke you to react Please like comment share and subscribe Click the bell icon to receive notifications for my future videos if you would like to donate my PayPal link is in the video description If you're interested in one-on-one coaching you can email me at NarcissFiverCoaching at gmail.com Narciss provoke you to react The Narciss will constantly push and provoke you to react to them. They have to create drama and chaos They have to induce stress and anxiety within their victims Narciss cannot function properly without their needs being fulfilled and One of their main needs is a dysfunctional environment They cannot survive in healthy environments with people who do not put up with them They cannot survive in environments where people have boundaries or set standards Narciss target and gravitate towards people who have been abused in the past So it leaves an opening for them to get in The abuse left a wound and these Narciss further attack that wound to provoke a reaction from you Once they've learned you and study your vulnerabilities weaknesses or insecurities They can also create new wounds This is all to ensure that you remain susceptible to the abuse You must be likely to be influenced or harmed by what they are doing to you This is how you become a good source of supply to them When they know that they can push your buttons as and when they need another hit Another little high to regulate their emotions or boost their self-esteem Because that's all this is about It's about using this victim a naive or vulnerable person To fulfill their own selfish needs and at the victim's expense Narciss are dependent on your emotional reactions to them. They are dependent on you doing something feeling something or having a certain thought in Response to something they they have said or done But most often it has to be more than an action or thought They have to be able to witness your emotions When they first meet you It will be all about provoking stimulating positive emotions within you, but once they have secured you as a source of supply and Positive again positive positive engagement is no longer fulfilling enough for them They will be trying to provoke negative emotions within you They go from provoking positive emotions to provoking negative emotions Because they can no longer get the same fulfillment from interacting or engaging with you in a positive way It no longer gives them the fuel that they need It also makes them frustrated and resentful towards you Because they realize that you can be fulfilled from positive interactions or engagement It reflects on them and makes them feel as though there's something wrong with them As though they are less than perfect Naturally, this will cause a narcissistic injury and narcissic rage Especially if they witness you interacting or engaging with was so un positively Outside of them then it really drives it home to them that other people can be fulfilled by interacting with you But they can't it really makes them feel as though something is wrong with them It makes them envious and jealous From this point on They will see it as a competition and a point that they have to prove That they can interact or engage in a positive way, but of course It's not going to be with you Due to their frustration and resentment They also have to find a way to project their feelings of envy and jealousy onto you So they will interact or engage with someone else and it will usually be someone of the opposite sex This is intended to provoke negative emotions within you and at that moment It may seem as though the narcissist has no problem interacting with this new person You may start to believe that there is something wrong with you, but that's exactly what the narcissist wants you to think When they witness you interact with someone outside of them They realize that they could not get the same fulfillment from interacting with you in a positive way and that made them feel frustrated and resentful So now the goal of them interact with someone else is To project these emotions onto you when they are provoking you and trying to get you to react to them It lets them know where you are in the mind It lets them know if you are still emotionally attached or emotionally connected to them This is another reason why they do this It's about establishing this connection or attachment to you Which is built on emotions So that they can develop a further level of control or dominance over you It makes it easier for them to manipulate you and control your mind and your emotions Sometimes you might think they are trying to be more intimately involved with you or they are trying to tease you But this is actually all about control It's about controlling your thoughts and feelings and being able to induce whatever feeling they want you to feel Whenever they want you to feel it. I've said in my previous videos how narcissists do not see you as a separate being They see you as an extension of them and everything they do when they are around you is literally to turn you into an extension of them They want to be able to control your every thought and action They literally want to use you as an extension of themselves Where if they don't want to express a certain emotion They will project it onto you. It may seem like you are connected on such a deep level But you are really just being used to regulate their emotions When they're doing this you're like an extension of their brains They are trying to turn you into an add-on or a component of what they are So that they can interact with you in a way that whatever they think or feel you can reflect it back to them It's like they basically want another version of themselves in a separate body To play with and reflect back whatever they are thinking or feeling in that moment And when they're provoking you to react or projecting these emotions onto you They will act as though something is wrong with you or you're not right When really you're not even there in their minds anyway They don't see you as a separate being They see you as an extension of them when they act as though something is wrong with you or you're not right That's just the next step in their emotional regulation And it's based off their past experiences When people from their past provoke them or project a certain emotions onto them They remember how they acted and made them feel They made them feel shameful or embarrassed As though they shouldn't be reacting in that way All of this goes back to their childhood if you go back far enough You will see that everything they are doing to you now Is just them trying to recreate a certain situation or event That made them feel pain or discomfort. It has nothing to do with you They are just using you as an extension of them To express these emotions or experience these reactions for them Narciss don't self reflect or look within They don't want to do the work to heal their childhood traumas Everything they do to you is their way of temporarily relieving the pain or suffering They are experiencing from these past situations or events It's too painful for them to express those emotions or have those reactions So they use you as an extension of them As an add-on or a component of what they are To regulate their emotions and boost their self-esteem Remember they don't see you as a separate being They see you as an extension of them They don't care about you They don't have an interest in what you think or feel Unless it relates to them if you are an emotional healthy person Most often your thoughts and feelings might not relate to them So they will push and provoke you Until you do begin to adopt their way of thinking and feeling Then they can apply their negative traits to you and create this bond They are dependent on you and your reactions To regulate their emotions So they don't want you to go anywhere They want to ensure that this connection or attachment stays fixed in place Where it is able to provide them with what they need Whenever they need it As I said at the beginning of the video One of their main needs is a dysfunctional environment These environments have the ability to provide them with the emotional reactions that they are looking for These environments allow them to get away with certain things Push people around Cross boundaries Just so they can feed off their emotional reactions And use them to regulate their emotions and boost their self-esteem Making them feel powerful and in control They don't care that they are causing pain or discomfort Because people are just objects or extensions of them anyway They exist to serve them and provide them with what they need Narcissus are self-absorbed and lack empathy They only care about themselves They will not feel shame for what they are doing But they do feel shame as though they are bad people And this is actually what drives them to do what they do They spend their lives doing all of this to dodge the shame They are shame-based individuals Doing everything they can to avoid reflecting on their shame This is why they are always trying to push and provoke you Trying to get you to react So they can call you a bad person And project their shame onto you They know that you will express this emotion And express it for them Which further helps to regulate their emotions And boost their self-esteem But the shame continues to grow within them And this is why the game never ends This is why they are never happy or satisfied with anything in their lives Thank you for watching I hope this video resonated with you Please like, comment, share and subscribe Click the bell icon to receive notifications for my future videos We have a private reddit community Where survivors and frivers can share their experiences and knowledge If you are interested in being a part of this community You can sign up for our Patreon page The link is in the video description Check out the Narx Five of Moose Dice store Where you can purchase your own Narx Five of T-shirt or mug We have a variety of designs And it is a great way to support the channel The link to our Narx Five of Moose Dice store Is in the video description Thank you for watching and I will talk to you soon


All the meeting to order and for the first time in a very long time in person. So excellent to see everyone faces and more Lovely. All right. Can we have the role, please? Commissioner Sibley Commissioner Hardee's here Commissioner Lane here Commissioner Norton here Commissioner goon Commissioner Jacobi Thank you. Great. Thanks. So we do have a quorum next item on the agenda is the HBC Minutes from May 5th We do have four of the members who were at that meeting present. So we are able to Notify those minutes. Are there any commissioners that have any questions or comments on that meeting minute and Commissioner Jacobi, I just wanted to make sure that you were satisfied with the record that was put on there for The public comment, okay with that I would Entertain a motion and I think for the ease of can we do motions without having to do the mic dance? Okay Okay, perfect So with that I entertain a motion for approval Okay, I moved by Commissioner Sibley Seconded by Commissioner goon all those in favor the way we're going to do this is just raise your hand so that the Video will capture votes. So all those in favor All right, so it passes Four in favor and two abstentions Next item is report from the chairperson Wherein I am no longer obligated to talk at length about how one Logs on to the meeting and waits in the queue and So on and so forth So all I have to report then is that Commissioner Sibley and I did attend the city council meeting on the 17th of May We're in the mayor and the council did Proclaim May historic preservation month. So that was good that council was able to do that and just give a little more public recognition to preservation and Archaeological merit, maybe this is the seat Archaeology Thank you. All right communications from HPC staff liaison So I I don't have anything other than the agenda items. I don't know Jennifer Okay, are there any Questions from commissioners for staff that don't relate to things that are on the agenda Have an update on any Support from the city for advertising for the tours that we talked about I needed to get back to your Rick on that Commissioner Jacobi I've been out a little bit in the month of May. So I haven't had a chance to kind of follow up on that But certainly yeah, let's chat either this week or next week about that I'm happy to kind of coordinate on that I know that The museum is still hosting some upcoming walking tours this month if anybody's interested But yeah, certainly let's chat about the historic east side tour and the potential for advertising for that Here we go. Yeah, I'll just let you know that I just took it upon myself to organize another tour Just because the time is right now if we can do it with city Support of advertising great, but it's gonna be June 25th Saturday morning at 9 a.m. And If if not, I was thinking we probably will do another tour in the end of summer as well And that one might work out better for advertising given the lead times we need for getting things in print and whatnot But I will be doing one in June Yeah, we'll see if we get something up on the city historic preservation web page obviously since you're a commissioner and see what other options we have for getting that's getting the word out for the June 25th Great. Thank you. Thanks. Okay, great All right now we will move to public invited to be heard So this is an opportunity for anyone in the audience who would like to speak on a topic that is not on the agenda You're welcome to come up and provide comment Please do start by stating your name and you do have three minutes after which this This thing's gonna buzz pretty good There's a sign-up sheet out there that they should have properly handed to you and then you know Okay, what public's coming to speak that would be fantastic. You could prepare yourself This is the first time in two and a half years. We're doing this So we'll we'll I think that's an excellent suggestion. Thank you. Thank you My name's Sharon Larry 534 Emory Street First and foremost, thank you Thank you for giving of your time and energy and to the citizens of Longmont for historic preservation When you go online and it lists all the different boards and they give a very brief description If you want to apply for a board for a historic preservation It says considers matters relating to protecting enhancing and preserving properties of historic Geographic or architectural significance in the city. Thank you That's what you've got to do. So thank you. I appreciate your time Okay, so quickly And oh and thank you for meeting in person and and I hope in the future We're always meeting in person, but if not if you could follow city council schedule It's great because I think thinking in silos is not as good as meeting in person That's just my opinion First of all, my most concerning thing is the demolition ordinance I first came to a historic preservation commission February 2016 I mean, this is a long time waiting and nothing's happened and nothing's changed So if if you believe in preservation, I think you really need to address Our demolition code because it's not in favor of preserving So maybe you could put that on your work plan My second thing is A prime example was a house was demoed at 846 emery And it was demoed because it couldn't support a second floor Well, guess what the majority homes in the Sturkey site neighborhood cannot support A second floor and that needs to be looked at. Why did that happen? Why was that even something to consider when demoing? So this is what's going to happen and and what do you do as a preservation board when somebody oops Demo's a house an historic neighborhood is lost one home at a time Stop the bleeding Three I Think it's important that we look at pushing forward on that conservation Overlay zone for henna, which for 30 years preserved the neighborhood It's pretty much intact. And if we don't move quickly Um, it could it won't look the same And fourth walking tours. I feel like there's systemic bias going on So there's walking tours for third avenue and historic downtown and nothing for the east side the oldest neighborhood So what I would ask as a board that you contact The museum and suggest that they adopt or work with your board member who went and wrote his own Walking tours so that our neighborhood People could get to understand it understand the history of Longmont and maybe open their minds to preservation So because the systemic bias They have not included us in this second round. So please work be guardians Um Historically side has been guardians of our neighborhood and we just want you to get on the bandwagon with us Again, thank you Thank you for your comments. Great. Thanks Um Absent to sheet. Is there anyone else in the audience that would like to speak? Thank you. Well, we'll close the public hearing or public invited to be heard. Thank you All right on to new business Which is an update on the dickens barn Is latin property and I believe planning director And we're gonna you have a Report for us Mr. Chairman and yeah, welcome everybody to our first for me anyhow our first in person meeting And we have a number of things we want to bring you up to speed on And the first is the dickens barn assessment and if you'll remember on april 7th after you heard the presentation by The 7-11 folks on their plan for preservation I think you felt that the barn is an iconic structure and what can we do to preserve it So you made a recommendation for them to go back and have their structural engineer Look at it from more of a lens of how do we keep it standing? How do we keep it? The barn preserve there and not necessarily turn it into A commercial building that meets our current building codes, which As you remember brought the price tag up well above Two and a half million I believe to preserve it so And then at the end of the meeting there was a call to staff to Again reach out to some of the departments that would be involved in preserving the the barn And for us that would be natural resources and then also parks and recreation So, uh, jennifer and brian and I did that we did reach out to them And they also I think brian brought out carol or no, I'm sorry. It was um, it was dav David bell from natural resources has a good contact with boulder county and that's carol beam Who's one of their preservationists on uh staff? They went out and took a look at the barn And there was kind of a changing of thoughts. So we think there might be an opportunity where the town The city could take ownership and be the stewards of the barn It's we're still kind of in the infinite stage But because of that we thought well, maybe we should reach out to a structural engineer that we have on contract That has worked with some historic structures here in town To kind of get that other look because that's the first question david bell asked is what's it going to cost? So um We've done that and we've prepared Gus escobar from actually is housed in downtown Longmont he prepared kind of a quick walk through with some Ideas as far as where the the structure is from a structural standpoint And I think it was pretty positive. So um, we have that and Gus isn't here tonight, but if you have, you know Specific questions, we'll bring that back to them But it's it's certainly within the realm of possibility So from that we are also going to meet with parks and rec To see if they have possibly a use for the structure wouldn't be for public use But if they can store equipment in it much like it's historic purpose For maintenance of the park across the street for sandstone park across the street Then we have a use for it and it certainly makes more sense So we're going to continue those discussions. Um, and certainly if it looks better We'll probably have Gus go into a little bit more detail As far as some of the things he couldn't see Just through his walk through and and analysis So, um, that's kind of where we are. Um, and we will keep you updated The applicants have submitted their plans for development. So they're in the development review process It does take a while But we do feel like we should we need to move this forward from from their standpoint as well. So If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them for you or we can pass on questions to Gus and get back to you as well Okay Thank you. Oh I'm sorry. Go ahead. There was one other thing that I did want to get your input So one of the next steps would be perhaps Making a presentation to the parks and recreational advisory board. They're the ones that kind of look at Utilizing funds for various things So I thought uh, mr. Chairman or somebody else could maybe join staff when we get that scheduled I think that would that would really be helpful as well Sure. Yep. I'd be happy to do that I don't we probably don't want the whole board down there. Um, that turns into public hearing, but if there's another commissioner that would Be excited about that then I think that would be a welcome Yeah, I appreciate that that's that's great to hear This is much more in line with the With my thinking at least in terms of what might be required to stabilize So yeah, I really appreciate that. So we do have some commissioners with questions. I'm going to call in commissioner hardy's first Yeah, that's really exciting that the building may have some more life There was just one one item in The Escobar report and I'm trying to find it now, but it referred to Putting plywood on the inside of the exterior walls for lateral bracing and I just wonder if maybe he would also look at Threaded rods and turnbuckles that could keep the appearance of the inside of the barn intact but provide that kind of bracing in a gentler fashion It would run through the building Well, they would be cross bracing and and then you can cinch those up with the turnbuckles Okay, you know to help get the the building plumb and and it stays in place as lateral bracing Okay, and that might work instead of the plywood being throughout the inside. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, good Okay Thank you Hey, uh, let's see Commissioner Jacoby Uh, yeah, uh, I echo your thoughts Lee I just it's wonderful to hear that we might be moving forward and preserving the barn Uh, it might be premature at this point, but I'm curious are there plans to make it The exterior space available to the public or will it be more just Preserved and used for maintenance for the the parks department. Are we going to have signs out in front? Talking about the history of the the homestead Or is it just going to be mostly for storage and we're going to maintain it as a city if we move forward with this? I don't know if you have thoughts on that Well, I think we talked about perhaps some interpretive signage that's on the trail That's close to the barn But we've really only talked about because we're really not going to be able to bring it up to code that we just try and keep at least the inside for storage purposes mainly Hopefully we don't have to put a fence around it I would hope we would need to do that But I think that's about it at this point. We haven't really delved a lot In a lot of depth I'd like to point out just of the all the photos of the barn that we have Almost all the doors and windows are open And the current owners are concerned about vagrants in there And that that's almost ten amount to demolition by neglect right there if the barn were to have a fire or something And it'd be nice if they could close it up. That's again up to them. Um, and but yeah, I I'd offer to go talk to parks and rec two about the history of the the homestead If you if you would like but um, all right. Thank you. Yeah Any other commissioner comments questions? Um, I do have a question about the application moving forward so When they came back to us the last time there were a number of proposals for You know various features signage A video inside the store You know this Some hint of the buildings that were That would be demolished What if any of those are currently included in the application as it stands? Well, you haven't made a final recommendation on it yet So they do have to return to you So I would think some of those elements would still be part of the plan Okay, so that's still an opportunity we still have an opportunity to to respond to that application It's not moving forward absent this commissions No, that's something they would still have to complete before they could yeah, I get final approval. Okay, great. Thank you Great. Well, that's that's very good news and I appreciate your efforts on behalf of the town side and I want to I want to call out the commission for being stout and holding ground So this is it's a real positive so I think when the staff was out there was when we were Experiencing 90 90 mile an hour winds through the area So I got a hand it to them. They showed a lot of Temerity to get out there and yeah, trust me You know, I was sitting inside the barn or standing inside the barn when the wind was howling and I felt relatively safe There was one sheet of plywood I opted not to stand under That's that was just at the opening though. So that wasn't yeah Probably wise, but as as I think even Gus Escobar mentioned it. It's been there this long, right? It's not the first 90 mile an hour wind that that building is seen So, yeah, great. Well, that's that's excellent. Thank you. Sure Okay, and this is not a public hearing So we don't have any public comment about this particular item. All right All right, so on to prior business updates on First I guess 8a would be the HBC code amendments Yes, I'd like to give you an update on that. We are getting close We've talked to as we mentioned we've hired outside counsel to help us Put together the draft and I think we mentioned to you kind of our first step would be discussing with city council some of the Policy issues and some of the legal issues that are coming up with the code. So that it has been scheduled With council this month and then we're going to return to the and basically Repeat that process with the hbc So your next meeting is July 7th I'm remembering that a couple on their team might have had an issue with July 7th, but I thought While we've got you here is July 7th. Is that going to work? That's the 4th of July week And if not potentially the 14th, which would be one week later, I think we can have a special meeting In order to get everybody in in one place and had that meeting And there might be a conflict with the 14th of the meeting in here. I think there's another board meeting Dare they All right, so we might have to look at some different options if the 7th doesn't work Yeah, we did review as a board The calendar at the beginning of the year and decided I don't recall moving this one because Because it's our natural first thursday, but it did no one objected to the okay to the date. So all right So it would be really great if if we could stick to this work Yeah, okay, and and just to clarify this is the in part reviewing demolition ordinance that we've had Out there for some time. So that's that's exactly what we're talking about. Absolutely. Yeah Yeah, and to clarify because of the the legal issues the the discussion with counsel and subsequently with you will be in an executive session so It will be semi-private In order to kind of talk through The legal issues and our options. So that's kind of the first step now one of the other questions is Typically adoption of an amendment to the land development code would also go to planning commission We're looking at options on that. So then we may follow up with A work session with city council a work session with the historic preservation commission and potentially The planning commission so that everybody's kind of on the same page So it looks like uh, that's how we're spending our summer Is talking about the historic preservation code, but it's it's certainly worth it But we'll finalize what that schedule is going to look like in the weeks to come Great. Thank you. Uh, any questions comments regarding the code amendment schedule? No Okay, great. Thank you that So then eight B would be an update on the historic preservation plan Yeah, so that's going to be me. So I'm going to be fairly brief So last month the commission looked at several examples from surrounding communities of boulder Louisville and Lafayette about their preservation plans that they currently have in place I got the sense that the the general thought was that the At least of those three examples anyway that Louisville was probably the preferred example, um, just in terms of format and how it's how it was presented And so staff reached out to staff at Louisville just to get some background information Regarding that we also got copies of their request for proposal and also the contract that they put together for Putting together their uh, their preservation plan Um, and so staff our staff has been talking about that and putting together a scope of work For a preservation plan We're also exploring different funding options for the preservation plan whether that would involve um a potential grant application and or if we have the ability to fund that Ourselves without a grant application. So we're continuing to explore that If if the timing is right, um, and you know, we can reach out and and go through our our purchasing process And we have funding available There there might be the possibility that we do the You know the the plan ourselves without a grant application We'll see how that kind of works out staff still having that conversation And we're going to meet with our purchasing contracting staff as well about that That process. So we'll keep you posted on that end um, and then also, um, and I don't know if you have any specific questions about that one thing I would perhaps like to do is Maybe reach out to history colorado staff and see if they have any suggestions or recommendations of uh, you know professionals or uh professionals that do these types of uh Plans and see if they have any Recommendations for staff to reach out to These new mics are wild. Um, yes, I'm I'm happy to help set up a meeting or facilitate the conversation whenever you're ready Okay, that would be great. Um, and if staff moves forward on their own without getting outside vendors to write it Um, I don't know if we can do this, but I would volunteer to help With whatever that looks like. Yeah, no, we're not going to do it ourselves. Okay, then I just understood Brian No, we would we would contract out for a consultant to do professional consultant to do the plan We would not do the plan on our own We would do something that somebody that's actually qualified to do a plan But but you might help with an rfp perhaps Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, obviously staff is limited in their capacity to put together, you know It'd probably take us 10 years to put together So if you have a misunderstanding, yes, I'll volunteer to help out with any I appreciate that. Yeah, and like I said, we can share like I said the information I got from Lewisville in terms of their RFP their scope of work the contract that they got the consultant that they worked with It seemed pretty reasonable. I mean, obviously this was 2015 and I to think the contract at that time was less than $25,000 So we're going to see what options there are and opportunities we have with our Purchasing process that we have with the city as well in terms of what what those requirements are and then kind of related to that is that last month's meeting we also talked about Some grant opportunities particularly some of the the rolling grant opportunities and one one in particular we talked about was survey grant Which is a rolling Continuous grant application. It's a non competitive grant application. That's a potentially up to $15,000 I think there's a 10% city match For that and you know, that's an opportunity for the city to look more Comprehensively in terms of what their priorities are for survey work in the community What's been done to date? What additional survey work that the community what their priorities are for survey work? And so that's something that I think we want to undertake as well Is is looking at and we might want to reach out to history colorado staff as well and get some examples of those applications that have done been done in the past regarding these types of Survey projects and the grant applications. And so I think we'd like to pursue pursue that as well in addition to the preservation plan So I don't know if the commission has any questions about that as well So we're working on kind of scopes for for both of those aspects Fantastic. Yeah, any commissioners have any questions comments? No, all right. Yeah, thank you. That's perfect. I was going to ask about the the survey grants I appreciate you bringing that up. Sure. Yeah, I was going to ask a question Our last rfp it was for something completely different it was for a housing analysis, but we had nobody respond Because everybody was maxed out and hard to to fill positions And I don't know if it's that way in this world. Um, I'm hoping there's capacity out there, but Is that what you're seeing commissioner holly? I mean is there We're also having trouble filling positions. Um, I think there's less issues with Contracting with outside vendors But people people are busy people are at at max. Um, I don't know what to tell you about that. So sorry. Yeah I hope for best. Yeah, we um, we've had to repost things a couple of times when we've been looking for vendors and staff so Yeah, we're I'm again, I'm happy to set up One meeting or multiple meetings with all the correct staff members who can answer these questions for you guys and Even point you towards possible Folks, okay. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be super. Okay, and see, you know We could reach out to potential contractors and see what you know, see what their schedules are like How far out they're scheduling and what what options might be available? All right, that'd be great. I think the The rfp that when you were referring to was one that the city's going to reissue based on timing and that was one of the the hiccups and so if we can yeah, if we can Communicate with I'm sure I mean this is a very small pool of consultants. They're going to provide preservation plans, right? So understanding How best to frame that to get The biggest draw would probably be You do need a mic because Was it was it a cost issue? Do you think like or was it open-ended and so it was like a Full rfp. Yeah, we were able to reach out to the people who picked up the rfp and didn't turn it in and and asked them What was the issue and it was all about timing Okay, and it was partly because dola allow let all this money out at one time. So We were competing with every city. I think in colorado. Yeah, we're having problems with that too. Yeah We love the money, but yeah Well, and there's short time frames. Um, so a lot of that is due to those covet funds and those Those will be used up within the next um, like state fiscal ish. Um, and so maybe Maybe next summer will uh Will be easier. Yeah Not that we want to wait that long Right, right. Uh, let's see commissioner hardy's Yes, I just uh wanted to Mention that I assume the the city uses uh bed net or one or the other And the rfps that I've put responses together and gone to Initial meetings for projects in recent months have all been really well attended So, I mean there are people who are still looking for For the work and it may be that you need to Go outside the area Looking for consultants You know, you know, with kansas or new mexico or some other You know surrounding state They may be more inclined Great. Thank you. Let's see commissioner goon I I just wanted to clarify. I did have to look up what rfp was So I'm afraid I'm not in on the lingo and so maybe for the public is Request for proposal right right request. So if it's an rfp, it's a request for proposal if it's an rfq It's a request request for qualification. Oh, thank you. Okay. I appreciate that. Yeah Sorry about that. Yep. We get stuck in the lingo. I know There are so many acronyms in the planning and world All right, uh, great. Well, that's also good news. This is a very A lot of positive positive energy here today Any other comments questions from commissioners? No All right. Thank you. Appreciate all the updates We will go then a fairly quick meeting then on to uh comments from hpc commissioners anybody have a Comment or statement they'd like to make Commissioner goon I'm just excited about that barn and what this what's been accomplished with that and even breaking it apart from the Project or the potential breaking it apart so that the city is showing that it cares about What can happen with that property? So that's just that's really good news. Thank you Commissioner Norton. I'm sorry. Just trying to get myself organized Um, I'm just going to echo commissioner goon. Um, thank you guys so much for um How responsive you've been over the last several months? I I know that it was I felt like it was hard for us as a commission to get our feet under us Especially during coveted and I think there was lots of reasons for that Um, but you've really done a great job in addressing our concerns in these meetings And I think the dickens barn is a really good example of that and I really appreciate Going back and taking a third look Um, and I appreciate moving forward with the amendments and the historic preservation plan So thank you so much to all the staff for all your hard work commissioner hardy's Uh, yeah, I just wanted to add I forgot to mention earlier that I'd also be very interested in volunteering help if You know, you're putting together a request for proposal or or scope of work You know, I've had a lot of experience Trying to deal with those from the other end And I'd be happy to to help look at that when the time comes Okay All right, great Seeing no others in the queue We'll move on to comments from city council representative and unfortunately our council representative is not here. So We'll have any comments from councilman rogerius Which moves us to adjournment Which might be one of the fastest meetings we've had in a while, but that's okay, I guess It is faster when we don't have to wait for five minutes every time there's you know potential for public comment That's certainly true All right, uh, do I have a motion? Oh, let's see Uh, commissioner sublie. I motion to adjourn all right We'll have a second Mike or otherwise All right Motion from commissioner sibley and a second by commissioner hardy's all in favor of adjournment. Please raise your hand Very well, we are adjourned. Thank you Good night


Cryptosporidium is a protozoan parasite that can cause diarrhea in both immunocompetent and immunosuppressed individuals. This study looked at the prevalence of cryptosporidiosis among renal transplant recipients who presented with acute diarrhea. A total of 644 patients were screened, and 343, 53 percent, tested positive for cryptosporidial oocysts. Further testing revealed that 43, 12.5 percent, also had dual infection with bacteria and protozoa. Additionally, 15, 4.3 percent, patients were found to have co-infection with Giardia intestinal oocysts, while 10, 2.9 percent, had Entomibia histolytica oocysts. These results suggest that cryptosporidiosis is a common cause of acute diarrhea in renal transplant recipients in Pakistan. This article was authored by Kapil Raja, Zayam Abbas, Sayed Mujahid Hassan, and others.


Hello, good morning, everybody, and welcome to this ICSD session. We will be starting very shortly, but we're just going to allow for a few moments for people to start connecting. I see that people are slowly connecting. So again, welcome everyone to this ICSD session. It's morning here in Europe, but wherever you're joining from, welcome. Okay, great. Welcome everybody. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, no matter where you are in the world. We are so happy to welcome you to this ICSD session of our conference on sustainable development. An international conference that is being organized by DSDSN. My name is Andrea Eratz and I work at DSDSN as a network manager. And I'm very pleased to introduce you to this joint session co-organized by DSDSN, Arsinoe, and Inputus Projects. Feel free to say hello to us in the chat and tell us where you are joining from. All of us are joining from different locations. So it is so wonderful to organize this in this hybrid mode. Our Arsinoe and Inputus Projects are the two EU Green Deal sister projects that are focusing on adaptation to climate change that is being done through systemic solutions and innovations for climate resilient regions. So the whole idea of our session today is that sustainable development projects and programs can no longer revolve around the success of a single piece of technology, or a single approach. It is about promoting some deeper transformation, some more comprehensive approaches about bringing different stakeholders together and actively promoting human engagement, interdisciplinarity, learning by doing. So this is the approach that is being taken by the Inputus, the Arsinoe Project, but also the Fable program on food and land systems. And we are so happy to be working on all of these with our partners throughout Europe, throughout the world to support the EU climate change adaptation strategy. So we're very pleased to be here with you. I already said, feel free to say hello in the chat but also, as we go on please feel free to use the Q&A function to raise any questions and we'll try to answer them. With us here today, we have Professor Gunther Paoli, who is an economist, an entrepreneur, and you may have heard of his most famous book called The Blue Economy. He will be giving us a introductory speech, which is a recorded video. In that video, you will see that he will be referring to some slides, but for some technical issues, we will not be showing them simultaneously, however, we will be sharing his presentation in the chat so you will be able to follow that. And after his speech, we will be switching to a moderated session. Our session will be moderated by Laura Dernford from the European Science Communication Institute. And on the panel, we will have Chrissy Laspidou from the University of the Sally in Greece and from the Arsinoe project. Dr. Martin Drew's senior researcher from the Technical University of Denmark. Dr. Aline Monnier, a scientific director from the Fable Consortium, as well as Dr. Andrea Marinoni, associate professor at the Arctic University of Norway, and also speaking on behalf of the impetus project. So that's all from me for the moment. Let's get us all started. Welcome again, everybody, and enjoy this session. We will now be sharing the video from Professor Gunther Pauly. It is a special privilege to be able to address you at the opening of this International Conference on Sustainable Development. I apologize that due to urgent travel, I am now in Colombia, and your 9 o'clock in the morning is unfortunately my 4 o'clock in the morning. So therefore, I am pre-recording this message to you. And under the eyes of the elephant behind me, let us all be very clear, we can't do more of the same. The challenge that we are facing today is very clearly that with all the great efforts of so many people, with the thousands of initiatives undertaken by millions of people, we have not been able to turn statistics around. The statistics that are coming at us, and the experiences we have lived through with the huge environmental disasters ranging from the forest fires to the heat waves to the flooding, tells us very clearly that it is time to have a fundamental shift in our approach. Doing less bad and promising to be good by 2030 or 2050 just will not do it. We have to change our approach, be much more ambitious, and therefore I am urging everyone to stop analyzing, to stop debating and to focus on the doing. And when you are doing, let us be very clear that we need a visionary approach. Those who see the invisible will be able to do the possible. If we are only going to do where everyone is agreeing on, then we will never have the breakthroughs that we require in order to steer our societies and our businesses towards sustainability. Here I am showing you a flower, the fissile. In Cardo in Italian, Le Chardon in French, we are showing a distal because to me it is very much the symbol of the kind of transformation we need. The fissile has always been considered as a weed, something that is of no use. And actually in many countries around the world, you have the obligation to destroy the fissiles with glyphosates, with herbicides. Ladies and gentlemen, today, Novamont, the company I chair, has developed a biochemistry that allows us to use the fissile, which is available on 20 million hectares around the Mediterranean, to use the flower that does not need any pesticide, herbicide, fertilizers, seed control, GMO, whatever the mother in agriculture is prescribing. And it only needs to be harvested. It is a perennial plant that will keep on growing for seven years, keep on expanding its roots throughout the soil and give us a flower with an extraordinary oil. Ladies and gentlemen, let us demystify plastics. It is an oil that with pressure and temperature is converted into an acid, and then you need a sugar, and the sugar is fermented into an alcohol. When you have an alcohol and an acid, you have a monomer. When you have monomers, you can make polymers. Ladies and gentlemen, we can produce today thousands of tons, hundreds of thousands of tons of biodegradable plastics, provided we use the resources that nature is providing to us, like the fissile. 20 million hectares will generate thousands of jobs and eliminate this obsession with a petrochemical plastic that is only perhaps degrading in the soil and never degrading in the sea, because the bacteria that are degrading in the soil simply do not exist in the sea. No university today is teaching chemical engineers to graduate with a degree capable of designing plastics that will degrade in the soil, in the sun and in the sea. We need to be able to go beyond what we know today, but it's not only the production of the plastics using bio-resources that are abundantly available that we need to focus on. The next slide you see, the drama of all petrochemical facilities. Here in Portatores, in Sardinia, the first cracker in 1962 built in order to turn the petroleum into a broad range of useful products. Those facilities 50 years later are a burden to society. They are characterized by heavy pollution and the impossibility to compete. Now we have two options. We close it all down and dismantle it, or we use the human intelligence to imagine how to convert a petrochemical facility into a biochemistry facility, and this has been done. Now once you are producing bioplastics, you can start deriving a broad range of products that will not only use and give value to the vessel and give an impulse to the local economy by converting those old petrochemical facilities in production centers of value, at the same time we can produce products like the diaper. Here you see a diaper, which is one of the products of modernity, but should we have diapers that are simply sent to the landfill or to the incinerator, or should we have diapers as you see here in the picture that will provide us the black soil, the earth that we need. So the thistle combined with human experiments, thanks to these bioplastics, turns back into a soil, but a soil in itself is no purpose. The soil in the end of the day is to grow something. Ladies and gentlemen, the apples we are eating today only have 5 or 10% of the nutrients the apples used to have 50 years ago, because we have depleted our soil. We need to regenerate the soil and therefore you need to have the business model that takes you from the resources that the earth is providing to replenishing those resources while generating value added and taking care of the problems of the past. The business model is not to have just biodegradable plastics. The business model, the societal regeneration model is to have apples that are full of nutrition. It is impossible to talk today about sustainable development without discussing energy. Here I'm leaving you in the closing of this short introduction with the image of Porima. Porima is the experimental boat that already in 2010, 2012, over two years demonstrated one can go around the world with solar energy only. Afterwards the boat was expanded with hydrogen produced from sea water, an intelligent kite capturing wind at 200-300 meters altitude. And instead of a boat zig-zacking against the wind, this boat is going straight because it's the kite that is doing the zig-zack. That alone is offering us a 30% improvement in energy performance. The maritime sector is the most polluting sector we know and nothing serious is being done that gives us a perspective that is now another perspective in 2050. Porima is the goddess of the future in Roman mythology. Porima is the goddess who will give us the view, the vision and the passion to really change reality around us. I imagine and I'm dedicated to not have one boat going again around the world. I am passionate and enthused to be able to create three boats, ten boats, a hundred boats and why not through a collaborative effort worldwide, a thousand boats. Under the watchful eye of the element behind me, let us all commit to stop talking and to focus on doing. And doing what we don't know and accept that unless we take the risks, we cannot do the magic of steering our societies towards sustainability and secure we can correct the errors of the past by regenerating this grand ecosystem with its billion years of experience. Have a good panel discussion. Thanks for the invite. Thank you very much to Gunther Paoli, economist and entrepreneur for providing us with that very interesting video. It's a pity he can't join the panel discussion, but I'm sure the panellists that we do have available today will make a great job of contributing their thoughts about what he said, as well as their answers to the questions that I'm going to put to them in just a moment. So thank you to all of you. Chrissy Laspidou, unfortunately, can also not be with us and has provided some answers to the questions that I'm going to ask in video format as well. So we are going to hear from her thankfully. So just coming to what we've just heard. There were some examples in that talk from Professor Paoli of specific technologies of specific developments. But also, the example really of how they can interconnect to form a whole sort of system of solutions that support each other and really lead to a lot of value being created along each step of that chain, which is really the fundamental principle that he described in his book, The Blue Economy, I think around 10 years ago. So drawing on your own areas of expertise and experience and work, maybe you could give us your thoughts, why do we need this kind of systems thinking the big picture and the interdisciplinary approach, if we're going to be able to tackle climate change in a sustainable way. Let's start with Chrissy's contribution on the video, please. Okay, maybe we need to get that lined up in which case. Would you mind Elina if we get your thoughts on this first of all and then we can come back to Chrissy's video at the end if we if we if we still need to. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Laura. So indeed, I think that this introductory presentation from Dr. Paoli is a really good starter also for us. So I think that maybe let's take from my position the example of the food and land. And I think that indeed the previous presentation already showed a few examples from land also based on land that could be used to really implement these changes which are needed. So let's let's take this example of using land and the natural resources to replace some of the products which are currently done in an understandable way. So the example of the fissile was taken previously, and also the example of 20 million hectares that could be used to do that. And indeed, like sometimes it's really, I think a good idea and I, I'm sure that the consequences of that have been taken into account but in many places before for example there has been this case of biofuels policies and and and the fact that it would be so great to substitute oil by biofuels. And here so we saw that if we don't take a system approach, we can really have some big big problems because currently land is used for something in most of the place around the world. So it needs to grow food or it is also to just let biodiversity biodiversity thrive, which is also quite important or trees to be to carbon and to store carbon for now and for future generations so they are very important trade when we're talking about land. And if we don't take that into account from the start, then we went the issue that we had for biofuels for examples, with government acting, which is great, putting targets mandatory targets for governments to do that which is the way to do it. But then after going backward, and then this is terrible for the business because then you start to invest but then you have to go back. So I think this is one concrete example where I think the systemic view is very important and land is really at so many tradeoffs, which really that's key for my domain. Thank you. Thank you. So, maybe next we can hear from Martin Drew's, excuse me. So, Martin, you're involved in various areas of interdisciplinary work, and excuse me, co chairing the collaborative program on high impact events and climate change of the European Climate Research Alliance, as well as being an advisor on the European climate risk assessment. Do you feel that there's enough joined up thinking amongst all the various bodies that are working in this area. And what evidence do you see or examples could you give us from from your experience of this interdisciplinary approach and big picture thinking that is so critical. Thank you so much. I think the I see a lot of potential, but I have to say I also see a lot of silos still. I mean if you if you think about it. There's been a lot of research going on in this area as as we also just heard from the from our keynote speaker here and given the fact that that there's been so much massive research it's really amazing that there's a lot about it and and I'm in, as you say I'm very much involved in, in sort of climate extremes, extremes kind of research, but also from sort of an interdisciplinary perspective, just the fact that for example, adaptation to climate change and mitigation as we just heard is generally perceived in a policy level at a practical level at a scalable level as two different silos is sort of to me, a danger. If you think about it. I mean, it's, I mean, we have, we heard also from the Alina moment ago about the about the necessity to really think about land use. And then if you think about how we defend ourselves against the most extreme that are that are already here. I mean, land use is one of the most precious and efficient types of sort of adaptation in many different ways. But land use. I mean, is also, I mean land is necessary for so many other things. So when do you when do you have to compromise what is the right decision to make. I mean, you can model, you can use science you can use all different kind of things but at the end of the day. It's only the interplay between the different people between different disciplines between the different priorities that you actually get to a good point. I mean, an example from the from from the talk, for example, why. We saw this plant that wasn't that that was located next to it and building next to the sea. Well, that's a that's probably for a very good reason there's cooling water there's other things and it's sort of accessibility, but it also makes it susceptible to climate change to storms to actually see the rise. So, I mean, did they think about that when they actually built it, or when they are rebuilding it. And that's that's a that's a that's a that's a very good question. I've experienced in tons of examples of my of my of my own work of my own resource of my interactions with stakeholders with policy makers that know that was not sort of intention. In fact, not not very long time ago I was involved in a project in that was actually in Serbia where they wanted to make a new sustainable wastewater treatment plant. And they did everything right. They did all the, they factored in all the stakeholders they factored in everything. The only thing they they missed and failed was the fact that they built, they plan to build this plant in the most flood prone area. So that was very good. So you do all the steps, but you forget one part. And that to me speaks volumes about how you actually need to factor in also those things you don't normally factor in, like risks, but also potential. So I think this is a, and I mean I liked just another example from from the talk. I really liked the sort of the image of the fissile, because the fissile is really very resilient plant. So that might actually be a very good place to go back to a lean's comment also that I mean, why is a fissile interesting. I mean, as, as, as, as said, the fissile is something we tend to think of as a weed, but it's actually a resource. And it's, it's, it's one of those resources that will stick around for a long time after the temperature went up by 32 degrees if we allowed to do that, because it's just so resilient it can take anything all the punishment that that sort of climate change that it give it in the, in the, in the short term, and it's still here it still contributes to the added this sort of mitigation kind of things and to, to start ensuring that we have a sustainable supply of the resources that we can't do without. So I think this is that that was sort of a few examples from me. Thank you so much. So, yes, just to pick up on a couple of the things you said you talk about the fissile being a nice example of resilience. And you also talked about the interplay between people and the science. And other conversations outside this event, Professor Pauli has talked about resilience basically being down to how do you react to a surprise or a change in circumstances. And the point about having the interplay between people and the data and these kinds of things is so that we can be more resilient. And so this is something Andrea Marinoni that I would like to just bring you in on, because this is something that the impetus project is very much taking into account isn't it combining. If you like societal data with the more traditional kinds of data that we would use for climate research, can you maybe just very briefly explain that and how this touches on this whole area of the big picture in the disciplinary approach. Yeah, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me and good morning to everyone. Basically, the end of the idea underneath here that rely on all our approach from it is relies on is that basically climate change, adaptation and mitigation that must not be to different siloes as Martin was saying. It's actually a problem that for which solutions to find a way to actually make one plus one, more than two, and even more than three sometimes. And so, to some extent, our, our approach in impetus on one side is focused in providing better informed decision making processes for all the sectors are involved in in the society or either industry research communities, environmental or eventually also administration and government. This, this takes advantage of the fact that sensors are all around us, and so we can gather data on all all different phenomena and events that that characterize our everyday life. So, by, by using artificial intelligence and modern modern machine learning methods, our ambition will be to extract the most reliable information out of all this data. So, to, to make the administration and the decision makers in the best place to perform any possible adaptation and mitigation measures that could be, could be the best for a specific region. The point is that the data analysis by itself will not make the magic in the sense that to make, to make these measures and policies be effective for, for, to address climate change effects. So, what we have to do is to involve the, the stakeholders, the local communities, the local administrations, so that make them engage with, with, with, with the creation of their adaptation measures and mitigation policies, so that it will be possible to actually form what, what in impetus with all the co-creation process of, of these portfolios of solutions that could lead to the creation of adaptation pathways for possible, all the different biographical regions for our project in Europe, but that could be a set of solutions that could be eventually also scaled up to, to other, other regions in a sort of federated manner. Thank you, Andrea. So, yeah, talking about decision making and those kinds of processes that need to happen. I think arguably we're up against a bit of a challenge because political systems, project funding cycles, making profits in businesses, they all tend to have a short term cycle, a short term view just a few years at most. Do you see this as a barrier to sustainability and climate change solutions? And how could we maybe encourage a longer term viewpoint? This is going to be a question for all of you, but if Chrissie's video is ready to play, I think I'd like to hear her answer to this one first. Yeah, the duration, this limited duration of terms, political terms, you know, of businesses, project fundings, all this is definitely, is definitely something that hinders results because people don't have this long term effect in front of them. So this is where we again need to focus on. We need now to establish the mechanisms, the ministries collaborating with each other. The institutions that will address climate change as a whole and that will address, you know, how to achieve the SDGs. A lot of this cross sectoral collaborations are needed in order to be able to have good results and to overcome this short term. It's obvious that politicians will be elected for a limited amount of time. We can't change that. And we don't want to change that. What we want to do is to establish this, the institutions and the process that will be able to support the solutions in the ideas long term and will have a strategic planning that will span across political systems and political leaders and figures. We can't be dependent on that. This also puts more pressure on what needs to be done, how we need to think outside the box and redesign the whole process. Thank you Chrissy. Alina, what would you like to say on this point? Thank you. I would like to say that most of the decision makers need to be convinced that the longer term of thinking long term is also at their benefit. So, and I think that in the case of climate change, I think it has to be really clear to them that climate change now and the long term impacts of climate change will have an impact on their business. So they have to think this longer term. They have to think about this potential long term effects if they want to be here in 20 years or 30 years from now. And if they want to have the competitive advantage in 20 years. So, for policy makers, it might be a bit more complicated because maybe their career might be shorter than that. But I still hope that they can think that they can drive momentum and leave a country in a good place by having this longer term and view. And I think that this is what is needed really to convince them about the need and their benefits to have it. Thank you. What about the point about project funding cycles? Is that something Andrea or Martin that one of you might want to come back to? Well, I can take a stab at that. I mean, it's definitely so that I mean project funding in a sense of course holds things back, but it's also a matter of what projects are we talking about? Are we talking about research projects? Are we talking about, as was already said in the keynote, I mean in doing, I mean we can research a lot of things, but it's also about transforming the solutions that we have into real pathways as mentioned in this session here. I mean, because I think in terms of some of the solutions will take a long time. I mean, Aline knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you want to change land use and land use patterns and implement things at a really decisive scale, it takes time. Those sort of projects are not over in two, three years. They demand commitment. But if the commitment was there, as already mentioned by both Chrissie and by Aline, then I would say the sky is the limit. But it's definitely at the moment it is the project funding not just in research, but also is really holding back stuff. I mean, I don't know how that would be changed. I mean, perhaps I would say that the European Union has done one thing with its upcoming senior program where they try to coordinate more than visiting the old days. Like for example, in this case, as you know, empathos and transfer mar and their CSA action called the resilience are all sort of formed in a way that they work together. You know, not just as for independent projects that sort of do the same thing, but they actually, they should work together. In fact, the entire portfolio projects are more coordinated than they've ever been. And that means that the project suddenly become much more impactful than otherwise. That's one way that you bring it out. I mean, I don't know if it's, as we say, it's probably completely impossible to imagine until we sell the narrative that actually Aline is talking about that we will have 10 year projects. But at least it's a it's a first and for me encouraging start that people starting to coordinate things in a much better way because it means more impact and that you can do more things than we could in previous project funding programs. Thank you. Yeah, I'm talking about the the research side of it. Somebody in the audience has asked the question, tying this back to what Gunter Bowley said, which was he said we need to change our approach. So the question from the audience, what does this actually mean in practice, for example, in research, if we're going to stop analyzing and start doing how could people working in academic practice actually translate that into their work. Andrea Marinoni, you actually work in research in academia. How would you respond to this question? I think that this is a very nice question also because it's, it's really very long on the end as we used to say in a sense that taking out activities from from the pure academic world is is pretty tricky in the sense that we experience when when trying to reach out to communities rather than industrial partners rather than administration that there is still some gaps in terms of the operational needs that have to be addressed in order to make all the research and the scientific studies that we make and our universities are available and able to address all the issues that are actually affecting everyday life. So the point is engagement is tricky, but and I resonate with all the discussion that has come before me in the sense that having a short term project is quite tricky because people don't see that much of an effect or some of these longer term climate change effects on their life and establishing longer term projects or initiatives might be tricky from a policymaker perspective, but I think at that point that that's one of the one of the angles where the diversity and the interdisciplinary approach that has to be taken that is a necessity for climate change adaptation mitigation might might make a difference in the sense that this sort of need this sort of requirements should come from from the communities from industries and from the education sector themselves. So for instance, what we what we can do is to try to change the climate climate mindset for for communities and also for younger generations. For instance, at the university establishing new new university courses, rather than involving arts and communities in order to to to perform initiatives that are that could phrase research activities in terms of cultural or artistic forms that that could make the communities engage more with the problems that we are addressing from a from a scientific community perspective, rather than working with science road shows at the community centers or or eventually also educational games that could help in this respect. Now, there is a big little bit of a problem here. This requires effort in a sense that everybody has to step out of their comfort zone and try to reach out to other to other sectors and that might not be might not be easy but the problem, the point is that this big challenge that could show up as a big mountain of problems in front of us is also motivation for us to try to climb up and find a solution for this because after this big challenge there is a big opportunity for all of us in different sectors of our society. Thanks, Andrea. Yeah, you very nicely anticipated one of the things that I wanted to ask you all about which is about diversity and and how that's why is it necessary and how to encourage it if it's necessary. Alina, I think this is something that maybe you would like to begin the comments on. Thank you, but let me react a bit to your previous questions before because I cannot resist to disagree with Dr. Polly. I think that indeed it's urgent to act but some people need to act some other people need to analyze and keep analyzing you know, I think that we provided two examples before with Martin that really I think show that needs to continue analyzing in this context of deep uncertainty is one on for example biofuel policy second is maybe where to build a plant. And of course we need to build plants which are for circular economy and so on we probably need to use more land for bioeconomy or so. Without analysis, you really risk to lock yourself into not sustainable not profitable solutions that will last for long time. So please scientists at least continue analyzing continue do your job to think about it and to provide policymakers with good analysis and of course maybe it's not waiting 10 years to get the perfect analysis done to provide policy makers and working closely together, more in a learning by doing together, kind of in a much more interactive way, but I really urge people to keep an eye. So that's, that's what I think I think that Martin or somebody you wanted to quickly react to that point so I don't know if he wants to do it now and, and we take to the diversity question afterwards. Sure, but maybe if you could keep it quick. Thanks. Yes, I wanted to, I can certainly do I mean I do not disagree disagree with you at all but I think one of the things is one of the things that I think the person asking the question was, was talking about is, I think it's it's also a matter of courage, because I think it's a matter of being able to not just analyze but also be part of the process. And I think it's difficult for scientists sometimes because it means that you will get your hands dirty. You're no longer the sort of neutral observer, you become part of it. And I know one of the one of the things that I'd like to highlight that very briefly. And I do that the scenery project is essentially built around a systems innovation approach. So it said it's a research and innovation project in the sense that it builds on on the systems innovation approach where you basically sit down with people and really get your hands dirty, and they are involved, and we are sitting and and basically you go back until your PhD students well, you have to go to this in the city or this in this community and sit down with them for X number of months and actually structure and think about your PhD research, in terms of the real life challenges, whether they are big or small, instead of just thinking, Okay, I need to write a really fancy publication. We need to actually solve a problem. And I think that that is difficult. And I think we work with this every day. And not, it's not for everybody. But some people are better at analyzing and some people are better at getting their hands their hands their hands dirty. But I think we need to definitely push more people into that direction, where we are participants, rather than just analysts, but that use, but analysts are useful too. Yes, thank you. Sorry to interrupt. So, which brings us back to the point that diversity is needed, of course, because different people bring different skills and knowledge and areas of interest. So, coming back to the question of diversity, perhaps actually, we could just play in Chrissie's response to this, if, if her video is lined up ready to go. So, diversity, gender diversity, people diversity, age, race, we definitely need to be diverse and in order to achieve our goals, we definitely need to include everyone. And this is part of the SDGs is part of what our goals should be indigenous people marginalized people. Those are the ones sometimes that are affected the most by climate crisis so we definitely need to bring them on board and include them. Again, this is something that takes a lot of effort to change minds to go beyond the conservative thinking that male representations, for example, are sufficient and young people need to be taken into account. And we need to make new leaders. I think this is again a matter of education. It's again a matter of us as a scientist communicating correctly this information and passing the messages to make it really part of a conscious of reality, the diversity. And we have the policies we have the process that need to be enforced, and the European Commission and other entities are really helping in that by bringing out, you know, gender and diversity, biodiversity. What, what can I say, biodiversity collapse is really one of the biggest threats of our century, and it is something that I definitely need that needs a lot of work. People see running out energy. They see food, I mean, all these resources are very tangible and they see them biodiversity. They cannot see so much so we again have a mission here to convince to enforce metrics to to show how it is degrading and to explain what it means. It is really critical that we do this because biodiversity, as you all know, is a huge part of who we are now and maybe COVID COVID is related to the biodiversity collapse, the fact that we are, we have these new invasive species, and all that discussion so it is. This needs to become conscious, we need education, we need initiatives to convince people and we need the metrics to scientifically measure in an easy, easy way to communicate to regional and national leaders. Thank you, Chrissie. Yeah, so metrics that comes back to the point you're making also about measuring and analyzing things and and Chrissie is also talking about the need to communicate more clearly. Maybe I can connect that thought then back to the question about the value of things that we're talking about and a question from the audience again about, you know, in business, what are the alternatives to making a profit? What role does value play here and tying that to what Chrissie is raising in terms of biodiversity and the value she's hinting at there in biodiversity. How can we encourage this notion that these things are important so that people are more willing to get involved in in a change that needs to happen.  Thank you very much. So indeed, I think that this diversity issue is very important because I think that people take decisions only when they're really convinced about them or some if they act really with all their energy they need to be convinced. And so it's very important to connect this broad message also for the SDGs or for the Paris Agreement and so on, with what people can experience in their kind of real life with their own constraints. So if the message is too broad and too general and doesn't connect to what they experience, then we are losing them. They cannot act, they don't know where to start, they don't know why. So I think that having an approach which is probably more decentralized also in terms of the global message and so on is more and it's quite important. Also, in terms of science, so for example with Fable what we try to do now is really to use this, this network so that the pathways for the long term pathways can be built by people in their countries right not only by the global modellers and who have a view about how the world should develop but that they can decide on what is important, what are their dietary shifts they can do, should do, and so on and try to progress in DC also these impacts at the global level so then they can be convinced with several iterations that okay the actions that they take have an impact at the global level and also the actions that they have an impact on their pathways and I think that by that trying to reconcile what are their preferences because we are diverse world and it should remain like that, but also we have only one world, one planet at the end it has to come together to preserve this planet. Thanks Alina and yeah I mean basically what the conversations been doing increasingly is sort of putting together the role for the science, the data, the data modeling, the technology and the need to involve people at various levels in society and I think that second need has been increasingly recognized and is now seen as a key area of the work as we've been hearing. So perhaps just very quickly I could ask all three of you to maybe even give us some very specific way in which your projects or your organizations are working towards that and what are the challenges and opportunities that you see in that work. Martin, how about we start with you this time. Okay well I can I can make it very quick well I mean we are, I mean I'm from the technical University of Denmark I'm also a happy member of the of the scenery project and and many international boards and stuff like that and I think one of the, one of the overall things is that there is, I think the challenge is that sometimes you need to as was already mentioned also in the chat is that is the thinking. I mean I think there is a challenge in getting to the point where actually Aline is sort of highlighting that where we all realize that we're in the same boat. And that is one way to do it and I mean one of the, in Denmark here where I come from one of my colleagues usually talk about funding events whenever you have a big natural disaster. And at the global level, that's, I mean that works very much at the local level because people sort of get together I mean just look at what happened during the COVID that was a global funding event if you like. But that's also one, the first example of this so what what my organization is doing of course is to try to figure out how we go beyond that and sort of communication, communication and education isn't it is insanely important. But also again, making, making these things, you know, push these things into policies, somehow putting them into targets and policies. And you do that by working with with the policy makers and with with the education at school level. I mean, at all levels to try and sort of push and share the information that we that we that we have. And, and, and I mean that's, and, and again, and also responding to one of the comments in the, in the Q&A just just here in the end. I mean, I think indigenous peoples knowledge are just local peoples knowledge I mean, sort of broadly all the knowledge that we have, we have making thing making use of this is actually a very big part of it. I mean, if you look at the reindeer herders in the northern part of Sweden and Norway, which we, which, which, which, which I talked to often. I mean, they have so much information about what is actually going on up there, and how one could adapt to it that that that needs to be heard, because they have already sometimes solved some of the some of the problems in terms of making sustainable solutions. That by going in by going nature based by working with nature. That sort of takes us a long time. It doesn't have to be technology all of it. Thanks Martin. It's funny you should mention Norway because although Andrea is Italian he's actually based in Norway. Maybe, Andrea, you can add some other examples of this or from other parts of your work as a specialist maybe in satellite data, working with satellite data for climate research. I will try to rephrase an old joke what happens in Norway doesn't stay in Norway, or what happens in the Arctic doesn't stay in the Arctic. In the sense that there are several, several effects of climate change that of course affect the area. This applies to all the areas in Europe and in the world and in the Atlantic. I could have some repercussions also on other areas far away from here or some tropical tropical areas in the world. I think of what has been changing in terms of oceanographic variables, all these global warming that provided an increase of temperature led to have these issues in terms of sea level rise that are affecting all the urban water infrastructures in northern Norway rather than affecting the occurrence of disaster events such as landslides or snow avalanches even more. And reconnecting to what has been said and to what also Professor Pauli said in inspiring introduction, there is actually a sort of marine version of the example that he made. I think that sea weed has been always found to be a big issue for all the fishermen and the people involved in the aquaculture industry, especially here in northern Norway. Now in academia and in the university but also taking advantage of the richness that the diversity of the different sectors might bring, there are several projects that are focusing on the implementation of nature-based solutions to address this problem. So this led to tests of using sea weed as raw feed material for the fishes that are in the aquaculture sites. This turned out to be a very good example for how sustainable solutions can come from the tradition and from the nature itself. But it also turned out to be also a nice example of how to engage people in the sense that this was a big problem that fishermen had and with academic studies it was possible to provide them with some solutions that were addressing their everyday issues also helping from an economic perspective. In that respect, the use of remote sensing and part of the Earth Observation Group at the university has provided a lot of added value in that respect and in that respect the policies provided by the European Commission in the open data policies for all remote sensing data that are acquired through the Copernicus program provided a big step in that direction. Thanks Andrea. We're actually very close to the end of the session. There is one last thing I would like to ask and I think we only really have time for Chrissy's response but having seen the video I know that it's a good way to end the session I think. So I think the question really is how to ensure a positive focus in these communications in engaging with various diverse stakeholders in the work that needs to happen. And what can what can we do about it so last word to Chrissy please. Yeah, this is another one of those questions that I like to answer. So, we really need to focus on communication. And as I, as I age and as I mature through this process, myself as a, as a professor, I see that our emphasis really, I mean, now my budgets are much larger, the budgets that go towards communication. My first communication is so so so important at the end of the day. It is not what we do in a lab or among a group of experts. It is what we bring outside. So we need to be innovative. Our innovation should not just stop at sensors and other technologies and computers. Our innovation should focus on becoming more easily communicable with the public on bringing new tools. We've been trying in our product in Arsinoe, we're planning virtual reality experiments that will show people what what the world that we imagine looks like. So all these, all these tools should be used digital twins that can show people on the screen. Why things are progressing the way they are, what the data look like information, all this needs to be included in our tools and need to be central in our, in our designs. We do get smarter through artificial intelligence through our technologies, but we need to show that they communicated with the people in an innovative way that will actually attract their attention and will pass the right messages to the right people. And step away, of course, of fear based communication. Thanks Chrissie. Thank you very much to all of the panelists from me, and I'd like to just very briefly hand you back to Andrea to end the session. Thank you everybody for taking part and for the audience participation to Excellent and I would like to thank you Laura for navigating us through this session so so peacefully. We, we hope that you will like this session and thank you all for for joining thank you. Again, on my behalf to all the panelists. This is the 10th version of the ICSD. It is 10 years that as this in this and exists. So we're more than glad to welcome you with some record numbers today in this virtual room we were 150. So we encourage you to explore the program of the ICSD to attend other sessions as well. Right after this one there are three parallel sessions one on SDG localization the other one on gender in the SDG implementation, and another one on carbon sinks in construction and transportation industry. You may also know as the SN is an academic network so if you are an academic, you may want to engage with as the SN and have your university or your knowledge institution become a member of as the SN we are already over 1600 around the world so feel free to explore our website and reach out to join us. And with that, I would like to thank you all again and see you next time. Thank you. Thank you very much for a fantastic session. Thank you.