Never forget that in the process of devaluation the narcissist converts you in his mind into a persecutory object, an enemy from idealized to derealized, devalued and then discarded. To reacquire you, to hover you, the narcissist must do two things. One, he must re-idealize you. He must photoshop the snapshot of you in his mind so as to render you again an ideal maternal figure. But that's only half the work. The other half is to make sure that his hovering would end successfully because narcissists don't take kindly to failure and rejection, they're very fragile and vulnerable, even in black. Okay, Shoshaneem! My name is Sam Bhatnin and I'm the author of Malignan Sir Flav, Narcissism Resident, a former visiting professor of psychology and currently on the faculty of SEAPS. And onward we move towards narcissistic probing. Narcissistic probing is a phrase that I've coined to describe the narcissist's hesitant tests, probing attempts to ascertain that the hovering will work and it won't end in a fiasco and the termination, the the termination of the shared fantasy for good. Narcissistic probing, narcissists attend therapy after collapse or modification. And so there are people who say that clinical psychologists would regard narcissists as mostly vulnerable and covert, while psychology professors such as myself would regard narcissists as mostly grandiose and overt. But that is of course nonsense. It's the same narcissist. It's the same narcissist. The process of collapse exposes the vulnerable and fragile core of the narcissist. Every narcissist has a fragile, vulnerable core. Narcissism is 100% all the time, in all cases, no exception compensatory.  And so the narcissist needs to compensate for this. Now most of the time it works. Most of the time the narcissist is able to coerce people to providing with narcissistic supply, to participate in his shared fantasies, to adulate him, to surround him with a luxurious lifestyle, money, sex, you name it. Most of the time. But some of the time the narcissist fails. He fails to extract narcissistic supply from his human environment. He fails to secure his goals on the way to obtaining supply. So he collapses. This is the collapse narcissist. It is then that all the narcissistic defenses, the overt grandiose defenses are disabled. It is then that they are deactivated and this process is known as decompensation. And then of course, having hit rock bottom, these narcissists attend therapy. And so clinicians, people who work with narcissists as therapists, as psychiatrists, as psychologists, yes, it's true. They see the vulnerable underbelly of the narcissist. And everyone else sees the overt and grandiose side. But these are two sides of the same coin. And all the self-styled experts, including those with academic degrees, are talking nonsense. I'm sorry to say, absolute nonsense. I've read an article in the September edition of Scientific American and only Elsa Ronningstam made some sense. Everyone else there got it 100% wrong. And I'm not talking about the YouTubers. I'm talking about the so-called academic experts who I've never heard of, by the way, most of them. Elsa Ronningstam is definitely an expert on narcissism, a very famous one. So why am I telling you all this? Because the process of devaluation and discard exposes the narcissist's fragile, vulnerable underbelly.  You're the maternal figure. The narcissist needs to reenact with you early childhood conflicts, which are unresolved. He needs to separate from you and become an individual. But you are still the mother.  So the narcissist feels throughout this process, disempowered the way a baby does, the way an infant does.  He in this sense becomes covert, or the covert aspects of him become a lot more dominant than throughout the duration of the shared fantasy. The end of every shared fantasy, every shared fantasy ends in devaluation and discard, period. This has nothing to do with you as an intimate partner, and there's nothing you can do about it. The very purpose of a shared fantasy is to convert you into a maternal figure so that the narcissist can dump you, end of story. But in the final stages of the shared fantasy, the narcissist faces enormous stresses and huge anxieties, because the internal object in his mind that represents you is being transformed in ways which are essentially ominous, menacious ways, ways that threaten the equilibrium and the precarious balance of the narcissist's house of cards, aka personality. The narcissist also has to get rid of you, and the narcissist is a creature of habit. The narcissist risks a backlash or punitive measures by you, and the narcissist is a coward. In short, the period of devaluation and discard is not easy on the narcissist, and tends to push him to become more vulnerable. So he becomes more passive-aggressive, and then he becomes more aggressive. He becomes more envious. He becomes more malevolent. He becomes more scheming. He becomes, in short, a bit more psychopathic, secondary psychopathic. You remember, I keep saying that when the narcissist's faces collapse, he becomes a bit of a borderline. He becomes emotionally dysregulated. He decompensates. He acts out. The same goes here. The devaluation discard process is the collapse of the shared fantasy. During this limited phase, the narcissist clinically is a collapsed narcissist, therefore exposing his borderline covert side. For a short period of time, mind you, it could last a day, it could last a week, it could last a month. It's never long-term, and it never comes to characterize the narcissist. It's just a phase that the narcissist is going through. But still, he changes. The devaluation discard ironically often changes the narcissist. This phase often changes the narcissist more than it changes you. And so, hovering is an example of this hybridity, this combination of grandiosity and vulnerability. On the one hand, to believe that he is able to hover you, to develop the conviction that he can re-idealize you and you will come running back. That's grandiose, of course. That's cognitive distortion in some cases, unfortunately, not in all. But it requires grandiosity. It requires the belief in one's own omnipotence and irresistibility. So there's this grandiose element in hovering. But hovering also contains a vulnerable element. Hovering comes on the tail, on the tail end of devaluation and discard a dead phase that stage the narcissist is still self-motified, if you wish, or self-injured, at least, and definitely self-collapsed.  If the narcissist attempts to hover you and you reject him, that's narcissistic injury. If you reject him in public in a shaming way, that's narcissistic modification. That's something the narcissist does not want to go through, especially having lived through, having endured the collapse of the shared fantasy. Admittedly, the collapse of the shared fantasy was brought on by the narcissist himself. It is, as I said, self-inflicted. The narcissist made it happen. He didn't have to happen. The narcissist made it happen because of his compulsion to separate an individual. But still, it's a collapse. The end of any shared fantasy, the terminal phase is a collapse. The narcissist is vulnerable because he is clinically has been rendered a collapsed narcissist. So he can't take the risk of another narcissistic injury, rejection, mockery, humiliation, shame, modification. He can't take this risk. He needs to make sure that if he were to attempt to hover you, he would say yes. And not just any yes, what we call enthusiastic consent, a resounding yes. Narcissists generally, even overt and grandiose ones, or maybe especially overt and grandiose ones, cannot countenance rejection, the hypersensitive to rejection. That's why they develop cold empathy in order to scan for people who possibly could put them down or take them down. That's why they are hyper-vigilants all the time scanning for insults and slides and interpreting even the most innocuous behavior and innocent remarks as a form of attack. It's all because they have to protect the vulnerable, fragile, delusional, cognitively distorted core that is known as narcissism. That's the only form of true narcissism. Anything that doesn't, anything that is not vulnerable, anything that is not fragile, that's psychopathy, that's not narcissism. So, real narcissists, true narcissists, cannot countenance rejection. Rejection terrifies. They need to make sure of the outcomes of the hovering and to resolve any cognitive dissonance that may arise. And so, they probe. They probe. They collect data. They gather, they gather information. They test you in small ways and big. They surround you. They create an environment in which resembles a laboratory where your minutest behaviors and speech acts and words and writings are interpreted ad nauseam.  So, this is probing. Lab-bombing, for example, is a form of probing. Grooming is a form of probing. Lab-bombing is intended to condition you, of course, to shape you via operant conditioning, to render you docile, subservient, submissive, intimate partner who is in love with herself, with her idealized image through the narcissist's gaze. Yes, it's all true. And grooming is intended to condition you to behave in specific ways, which would uphold the narcissist's inflated, fantastic self-image, and allow the shared fantasy to unfold the way the narcissist wants it to, with you as a maternal figure. So, lab-bombing and grooming have many, many crucial functions, but one of the functions of lab-bombing and grooming is to test you, to see whether you're going to fit into the shared fantasy, whether you're going to fulfill your maternal role appropriately, whether you're going to accept and love the narcissist unconditionally, regardless of his misconduct and misbehavior. In short, lab-bombing and grooming are a testing phase, a probing phase. So, these are examples of narcissistic probing. Narcissistic abuse itself is a form of probing. The first phase of narcissistic abuse is intended to answer the question, will she love me unconditionally as a mother would? Now, remember, he and she are interchangeable. The half of all narcissists are women, so just change the gender pronouns. So, we're beginning to see that many of the narcissist's behaviors, which are attributed to the narcissist's grandiosity, coercive nature, antisocial impulses, many of these behaviors actually emanate from insecurity. The narcissist's profound sense of insecurity because the narcissist has an internal image as a bad object and because he compensates for it by projecting a false self, a facade, acting, faking, the narcissist is very insecure. He knows what he's doing. Narcissists are self-aware, don't let any self-styled expert tell you otherwise. They're definitely self-aware. And so, they tend to be hyper-vigilant, they develop paranoid ideation, the secretary ideation, they test people all the time, they trust no one. But they trust no one because everyone and his dog is an opportunity for pain, for hurt. Anyone and everyone can reject the narcissist, humiliate the narcissist, criticize the narcissist, disagree with the narcissist, shame the narcissist, private or in public. Everyone is a potential for hurt, for harm. So, the narcissist needs to neutralize these incipient ambient threats, potential threats by gathering intelligence. Think of it as a CIA, one man's CIA. So, lobbing and grooming, narcissistic abuse, they're all forms of testing your metal, verifying, making sure what you're made of and how you're going to behave in a variety of extreme conditions.  The narcissist cannot be sure of your response to his attempts to re-idealize you and re-acquire you as a participant and a playmate in a shared fantasy. He cannot be sure. You may tell him to eff off naturally, as you should do. So, he uses third parties, flying monkeys in various settings in order to collect information. Are you predisposed to take him back? Would you be positively reactive to any attempt to hover you? Do you miss the shared fantasy and the narcissist? So, there's a lot of information gathering going on through third parties.  They are converted by the narcissist and they become the narcissist's eyes and ears and surveillance and listening devices and you're surrounded. You're besieged by extensions of the narcissist and the information flows back. The narcissist analyzes it, contextualizes it and decides whether you are hovering material or not. Similarly, the narcissist stalks you on social media, of course, using anonymous accounts, fake accounts and sometimes his own accounts, if he doesn't care. So, he gathers a lot of relevant info through social media. Be careful. Keep your private life private. Don't over-share. Come in to think of it. Don't share at all. Convert your accounts to private accounts. Reject all kinds of friend requests. I mean, there's a period after the devaluation and the discard. By the way, that's the most frequent period where hovering is the most frequent. Hovering is most frequent almost immediately after the devaluation and discard, believe it or not. So, there's this period of six months, one year, two years, three years maybe, where you are very open to intrusive attempts to gather data about you and then to deploy this data to manipulate it and to abuse it or misuse it in order to coerce you or cajole you or convince you or persuade you to join a new shared fantasy where, again, you would be queen idealized, but you will be the queen mother. And again, of course, this shared fantasy 2.0 is going to end up the same way, devaluation, discard, separation, individuation, and so on and so forth.  The narcissist is still all over you inside his mind. You interject. The internal object that represents you is still inside his mind, and still this object is still tormenting him, because it used to be ideal, now it is an enemy, now it is the secretary, and it torches him from the inside. The only way, the only way to restore inner peace is to match you with the internal object, either as an enemy and then the narcissist would push your boundaries and force you to become an enemy, or as a re-idealized intimate partner, and that's hovering. Narcissist can hover you as an enemy, it's a common mistake online.  So, if you refuse to become an intimate partner in a new shared fantasy, the narcissist would do his best to convert you into a true enemy.  So, to attain inner peace, the narcissist needs you post-devaluation and discard. Narcissist needs you in the aftermath to become either an enemy or again an intimate partner, there's no middle ground, and he's going to try to re-idealize you and hover you one way, but then if he fails, he will hover you as an enemy, and that is something much neglected in everything I've heard online, and by the way in the literature, hovering you as an enemy. So, it would explain many of the behaviors that you've come across, I'm sure, with the narcissist, and narcissists can of course oscillate, vacillate between the two.  So, the narcissist attempts simultaneously to probe both possibilities directly with you in a channel of communication and at the same time always through third parties, social media and indirect intelligence gathering.  It can get really bad if you don't collaborate with the narcissist in settling the internal object. The narcissist can and does become anti-social to the point of acting criminally, identity theft and so on and so forth. So, your best bet is actually not to reject the narcissist's hovering attempts outright. I mean, first you go no contact of course, but if a narcissist insists on contact, I am not of the opinion that you should be contrarian and adverse and act with animosity and hostility and fendimorph and so on and so forth. If you don't collaborate with the hovering efforts one way or another, he's going to settle on a version of you which would compel him to act in ways which could be detrimental to your personal safety, career and family. So, the way to react to a narcissist's hovering is to be firm with your boundaries but not aggressive. To say I've moved on, I have another life now and I wish you all the best and so on, so to be firm, but at that particular phase to communicate. Now, you don't need to extend the communication and don't fall in the trap of the narcissist's attempts to recreate some portions of the shared fantasy. Just keep repeating, these are my boundaries and I will not relent. Having communicated these two or three times, go no contact again.


And you you're probably familiar with this, that idea of like, oh, well, I did it, you know, but like, it's not anyone could have done it. You know, like that sort of discounting your achievements and then like setting the bar high next time. What's up, everybody and welcome to the show today. We drop great content each and every week and we want to make sure that you guys get notified. And in order to do that, you're going to have to smash that subscribe button and hit that notification bell. And if you've gotten a lot of value out of this, make sure you give us a like and share our videos with your friends. All right, well, welcome to the show, Dr. Kemp. It's great to have you here. Thanks so much for having me. This is really exciting to be on here today. Yeah. So Michael Harold, one of our team members has ran into you in a few conferences and we've had this topic come up on the show again and again in passing. The idea of perfectionism, many in our audience may not even realize they struggle with it. So today we're excited to have you here to unpack, unpack perfectionism and really this idea of unhelpful perfectionism. Because I think many of us feel that well, who wouldn't want to strive to be perfect and perfectionism can even be seen as a personality trait. That's a good thing, but it does also impact us in negative ways. So I love to just talk a little bit about unhelpful perfectionism, what that means and how we can tell the difference between the two. Yeah, sure. I think that's a starting out a really good point. When I work with people on perfectionism, one of the first things I'll say is like, you don't have to drop your standards. There's nothing wrong with, you know, aiming high, wanting to do good work. I feel the same way. I love doing high quality work. I'm not going to tell you to be a slacker here. You know, and I'm not into wasting my time when I'm working with people either. So if I was to ask you to do that, you probably wouldn't do it. So like that's not both waste our time. There are so many helpful aspects to perfectionism really that and often it's called like that kind of healthy striving like wanting to do a really good job, wanting to succeed and like, yeah, let's that's great. Some people are very motivated around that. That's probably a core value of theirs is to do, you know, maybe have a good big impact on the planet or help lots of people or do really great quality work. And perfectionism, the helpful sides can come along with all of that. And then there's this sort of element where it can just sort of tip over into something that is unhelpful that really you don't even like realize that that's happened until you're kind of already there. And I think that there's a few different things if I can break it down for you like that I look for. The first is is that there's sort of like a switch from setting high standards to those standards becoming really rigid rules that you have to follow. So like for a student, it goes from like, I want to do well at college to, you know, I must get an A in every assignment in every subject and have a perfect GPA, you know, and it's become a rigid rule that then is like controlling what you're doing. Like I have to work harder and harder and often work with with students on things like proportional effort. For example, like you just don't put the same amount of effort into something that's worth 5% that's something compared to something that's worth, you know, 30% of your total grade. And if you're trying to get like perfect grades for everything, you're going to really burn yourself out for a start. But one thing that even further than that, the perfectionists do is that they keep raising that bar all the time. So once I kind of get like all A's or something, then I need all A pluses, you know, then I need that little bit more. Or once I, you know, get sort of that approval from my manager or something like that, I need it like all the time. Like I need to be the best at this sort of thing and just kind of perfectionists just keep raising their standards each time they get something. And you probably familiar with this, that idea of like, oh, well, I did it, you know, but like it's not anyone could have done it. You know, like that sort of discounting your achievements and then like setting the bar high next time. And what that leads to is this kind of idea where the bar that you're trying to reach, the standard or benchmark you're trying to reach is always just out of reach. Like you're just always setting it higher. If you set your standards like always out of reach, then you're going to end up constantly feeling like you're failing because you're never going to get there.  Even though you might be achieving just amazing things, you still weirdly feel like you're failing. So when I'm looking for perfectionism in people and it shows up in really unusual like places, I'm looking for this kind of rigid standard that they're setting for themselves. And then I'm and that they keep raising that over the time over time. And we are looking for like real fear of failure, like really like how I feel about myself is dependent on meeting those standards. So then I'm really scared of failing because if I do fail, I'm going to feel just terrible about myself. Like it brings up lots of feelings of shame and embarrassment and the urge to kind of withdraw, get away from people. So yeah, so we've got those rigid standards, fear of failure and then a lot of self criticism if you don't meet those standards. So they're sort of like, I guess you could say the drivers of perfectionism and that perfectionistic self criticism, that stuff like I've certainly felt it. It's relentless, like nitpicking, fault finding. If I use any like Australian terms, please pull me up like I've I sometimes in I've done podcasts overseas and people have said you're what?  Anyway, nitpicking and fault finding and like just constantly almost like in technical terms, we call it hyper vigilant, like constantly looking for something that could go wrong or trying to prevent something going wrong. So the fourth thing I'm looking for is usually a whole bunch of different avoidant type of behaviors. Like all the sorts of things that you're doing to try and get away, make sure you don't fail, try not to feel bad, don't criticize myself.  Like they're just frozen by this debilitating almost. Yeah, if I can't do it perfectly, I won't do it all, do it at all. I was like that as a kid, like I'm not a team sport player. So I'm just not naturally gifted at that. You guys might be, but I'm not. I worked it out really early. And so any time I had to do team sport, I was just trying to find some way out of that. And so I just didn't do it at all. Still love to exercise now, but I don't really do team sports still. But I kind of enjoy some aspects of that, but it's funny now because I can, I feel like I've got a bit more permission to stuff it up. But I didn't have that permission when I was younger. I couldn't mess up. We drop great content each and every week and we want to make sure that you guys get notified. And in order to do that, you're going to have to smash that subscribe button and hit that notification bell. And if you've gotten a lot of value out of this, make sure you give us a like and share our videos with your friends. One of the things that comes out in this is this rigidness. And now for our, our clients who come through, we give everyone an intake form and part of that intake form is the ocean test. And as you can imagine, we definitely see some patterns that have developed when giving those out. One of those is very low in openness. So very rigid in their ways of, of experiencing new things. And of course, when it comes to art forms and conversation connection, I view as an art form. It's difficult not to be rigid for somebody who is high or low in that openness because we're going to need to try new things. And I think this is why they've experienced so much trouble because they're looking at the interaction as something that they would like to do perfectly, something they would like to nail. And even when we, when we lay out some of our strategies, the questions then go to, but if they do this, what do I do? And if they, and if this happens, what do I need to do? And anytime that I hear questioning in that manner, I know that they are looking for the right answer. And of course, when it comes to conversation connection, there's no right answer. There's no one size fits all strategy that is going to allow you to be able to do this. And you have to be able to allow things to develop. So I would imagine that this goes to the control aspect. And rigid people like to have control over the things that they're, they're engaging in feeling a loss of control. I can certainly see why that would cause a lot of anxiety for those. Could you speak to that, please? Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. And I see it when I work a lot with other helping professionals too, because we work in an area that is really high in uncertainty. We never really know, and working as a coach, working in leadership, working as a therapist, social worker, any kind of area where you caught people, I guess, you've got a high degree of uncertainty because people can't be controlled, can they? Really? Much as you might, you know, some of us probably have tried. So dealing with that, when you've got a lot of uncertainty, it's a natural in your kind of context in what's going on around you. It's a natural thing to try and control that. And you need to control that if you want to be sure that you're going to do well. You're going to be sure that you won't fail. And that's where that kind of, yeah, that rigid standard of like, I must not ever fail. And when I, just as a side, when I talk about failure, I mean in the broadest sense, like a failure is really kind of any time where you haven't met your own standards. So that could be, obviously you could fail in your assignments for, you know, at school, but you can also fail socially by being, you know, kind of awkward or embarrassed. And so embarrassing yourself. And that's like a little social failure. You can fail in leadership because your team doesn't perform as well as it needs to perform. You can fail to meet, you know, obviously work standards or targets and those kinds of things. There's a strong failure is really anything. I had one client once just freak out because they did feel this immense sense of shame because they left locked their keys in the car. And they felt this, this as a failure.  And so any little mistake can be, can be a failure. So of course you want to lock that down. And that is this, yeah, control is like one of those strategies. I would call like an active avoidance strategy to by actively doing this thing. Another form of control, like if I want to control the outcome is checking my work a lot of times, spending an hour writing and rewriting an email to make sure it's perfect. I'm trying to control how the reader, the reader is going to receive that and control my world around me. So yeah, I can absolutely see low openness and the ocean scale being related to this. Do they still call it neuroticism as well in the ocean scale? And we had an episode recently about that and how it shows up. Another thing that we see in doing these exercises, right? Especially when it comes to the uncertainty around communication is any little trip up, they'll have to restart the exercise from the very beginning. And we do video work in our improv sessions in our X Factor program and we do video work in our live training in person. And we will have from time to time clients who make one little tiny flub and then have to start the exercise over and hold everyone up in class until they can redo that exercise. And a large part about communicating with other people is there's going to be flubs constantly. We're all making mistakes and tripping over our words. Thankfully, this podcast is edited, so you don't get to hear many of those flubs. But that's a normal part of conversation. And if you're going into every conversation in the second, there's a mistake saying, I have to start over, I have to pull back, I have to redo it. That constant need to redo things is debilitating. It's an unhelpful form of perfectionism. And when we point that out, of course, many times they don't identify as perfectionists. They're just like, hey, I'm trying to do what you taught me the right way. And we have to explain that's why we teach everything in frameworks, right? We don't teach you spell out exactly what to say word for word because every audience member is going to perceive that differently. And if you are sitting there memorizing lines of conversation, well, it's hard to listen. It's hard to recognize emotional bids. It's hard to be open and vulnerable to connection. So we have to unwind some of that unhelpful perfectionism for them to see like, oh, I can make mistakes and it's okay. One of the easiest ways to do that is more improv comedy, where you have to be on your toes thinking on the spot and the flubs lead to the laughs. The flubs lead to the humor.


Introducing the Daredevil's of Hollywood. All right, now listen, everybody. Listen. A man's life depends on your teamwork in this next shot. Now be careful, everybody. Be careful. Okay. We're all sad, Mr. Vance. Now listen, Don, you're supposed to be driving that firetruck to a big fire, and you're in the hurry, see? Yeah. When I hit the corner, I go into a skid and do a spill, is that it? Yeah, that's right. And now when you turn over, make it good. Leave it to me, Mr. Vance. That's how we'll make about 65. Okay, well, here we go. Come on, on your toes, everybody. Paces, everybody. Pactress, take your places. All right, Phil. Signal the trucks. Signal the trucks. All right. Okay, Jack. Oh, boy, I'll be glad when this one is over. So will I, Mr. Vance. Here he comes. Oh, look at him. The motion picture capital of the world, we bring you the thrilling, true life experiences of those men behind the scenes. Those daring unsung heroes whose breathtaking adventures on the screen have thrilled millions.  Those men who comprise the strangest fraternity on Earth. The Suicide Squad. The movie Stunt Men. The Daredevil of Hollywood. Ladies and gentlemen, in bringing you this copyrighted radio feature, we are privileged to have as our guest one of the top-notch Stunt Men of Hollywood, Matt Gilman. It is through his cooperation that we are able to reenact some of the highlights of his dangerous profession. The thrilling scenes you are about to hear are his own actual experiences. Matt Gilman is here in the studio right now. And later in the program, we will bring him to the microphone. But first, let us learn something of his work. We take you back to an autumn day in 1933. The Paramount Studios are filming a picture entitled If I Had a Million with W.C. Fields and many other stars. The script of the picture calls for several automobile crashes. And the studio has engaged one of Hollywood's top Stunt Men, Matt Gilman, to make those scenes. Most of the minor crashes have already been photographed. But the important smash-up, a very dangerous stunt, is yet to be filmed. As the scene opens, we find Matt Gilman in a garage, preparing the car he is to use. A colored boy is doing what he can to assist him. What are you all going to do with this bus, Mr. Matt?  Smash it up? You don't mean on purpose. That's right, Spud, on purpose. Why, Mr. Matt, are you sure you feel all right? Aren't you out of your hate? I'm all right, Spud. You see, I'm going to crash this car for the movies. It'll be in a picture.  The fella done bent my fender yesterday. Like a scab me to death. Well, I'm afraid we're going to do more than bend the fenders on this hike. Hand me that settling torch, will you? Oh, you mean this funny looking thing? Yeah, that's it. Hand it here. Now, don't look at that flame, Spud.  What are you all trying to do, Mr. Matt? That dying on fire? Well, I'll tell you, Spud, I'm going to cut this automobile right in two. Frame, body, everything. I'll leave just enough to hold it together. Let me see. What are you doing that for? Because when the other car comes down the street at about 65 miles an hour, and hits this car, I want it to break in two. That's the way it's supposed to be, according to the picture. Man, I won't be in that car for a million dollars. Well, I'm doing it for a lot less than that, Squid. Oh, mercy me. Here, take this wrench and loosen those bolts on the frame. Yeah, Spud. Come on, Spud. Step on it. We've got to finish this today. Yes, yes, I'll tell you. But Mr. Matt, I got a little present I want to give you all. Yeah? What is it, Spud? It's this here rabbit foot, and it's a good one. Yes, I shot that rabbit myself at midnight in a graveyard. It is now two days later. The scene is the intersection of Havenhurst and Los Feliz Boulevard in Hollywood. A large crowd of nearby residents has gathered to witness the filming of the spectacular scene. Passersby also stop to mingle with the spectators in the roped-off area. Studio workers are busy setting up reflectors, cameras, and other equipment. Time for the big scene is almost at the time. Matt Gilman is going over final plans with the director. I'll only be doing about 20 miles an hour on the Model T, and he'll hit me at about 65, won't he, Mr. Wolf? Yeah, about 65 or 70 as fast as the car will go. Now, look, Matt, we'll have to get this right on the first take, because if we miss it, it'll take a week to duplicate that car. I don't think we'll have any trouble, Mr. Wolf. Everybody knows what to do. Chick Collins, the driver of the other cars, are plenty good stuntmen. Yeah, well, do your best, Matt, and don't spoil the shot.  Okay, I'll go up the top of the hill and wait for the signal. All set for cameras? And how about sound? Okay, here, Mr. Wolf. All right, start him turning. Okay. Now watch it, everybody. Okay, so far. All right. He's really stepping on it. Here to present the courageous man who made that scene, who for the past 18 years has been making some of the most dangerous scenes in motion pictures. We are privileged to present Matt Gilman, interviewed by Hal Stiles. Well, Matt, what happened? Well, after the crash, I was thrown on the running board of my car with my feet on the running board of the other one. The two cars clapped, closing in toward each other, and if Chick hadn't stopped when he did, I'd have been a gone goblin. I'll bet you would have. Matt, I understand you've been in this business for a long time. Do you like it? Well, at least I like the dough that's in it. I'd say you deserve it, too. Look, do you ever intend to retire? No, no, I'll keep on doing stunts for the movies till I get too old and feeble, or until I get into a jam that I can't walk away from. Hey, tell me you've doubled for quite a lot of stars in your time. Is that right? Oh, sure. Men stars, women, too. Oh, you've doubled for women. Yeah, a few times, you know, and real dangerous stuff. I remember once I was doing a gag for dear old Marie Dressler. She was supposed to fall off a motorboat and be picked out of the ocean with a sea dredger. It was down there. Well, wait a minute. Maybe I'm wearing out my welcome here. Do you want to hear this one? Hey, don't think for a minute you could get out of here without telling it. But first, let's have just a word from our sponsor. Okay, Matt. Now that dangerous business on the motorboat. How about it? Well, the dangerous part wasn't on the motorboat. You see, I was being picked out of the ocean with this dredger. You know, those things are about like steam shovels. And when that big scoop come down into the water to pick me up, that was the tough part of the gag. What was the name of that picture? The men in Bill, you remember, it was several years ago. Oh, yeah. Well, we were all down near San Pedro on location, and the director was going over the gag with me and we tried it. Now look, Matt, you ought to be standing in the bow of the motorboat. She makes a sharp turn and you fall into the water out there near that dredger. Yeah, in the meantime, the dredger keeps on operating and on one scoop picks me up out of the water. Right. But Matt, you're going to have to watch that big shovel. That thing weighs several tons, you know. Yeah, I'll have to let it hit the water near me and then I'll grab on before it goes back up again. And above all, don't let the thing close up on you. It'll crush you to death. Well, I'll do the best I can. How about it? Are we ready to take it? And I'll have to check. I think we're all set, though. How about a picture today, boys? Got those cameras set? Everything's all ready, Mr. Gallagher. Okay. All right, Matt. We'll be right behind you in the other boat. Cover off, Al. All right. Give it up for you, boys. All right, Charlie. Let's go. There are about 50 feet behind him, Charlie. When he falls off, stop. I want to get a close-up of that dredger shot. Almost to the dredger. I'd hate to have that thing scoop me up. Yeah, so would I. This boy is pretty clever. He's always been able to take care of himself. Well, there goes the sharp turn. Look, he fell right under the shovel. Good night. He's coming right down on top of him. Small, Charlie. We've got to get this. He's trying to swim out of the way, but he can't make it. There comes the shovel. It's got him. He hooked his clothes. They're angling like a fish on a hook. They're picking him up. They're pulling him up. 10 feet. Coming around trying to get a handhold. Look, Mr. Gallagher.  They won't hold. He's still going up. 40 feet. 45. 50. Look, the names are about to give away. It's going to fall. Matt, I'm beginning to understand why they pay you stunt men such good money. That was a fine fickle being, wasn't it? Yes, it was. You see, I was dressed as a woman. A lot of skirts and things. And when all those clothes got soaking wet, they weighed plenty. And that added to your own weight was quite a pull on your arms, I imagine. Can you imagine, right? I almost pulled my arms out of the sockets before I got back down. Say, Matt, judging from the variety of the two stories you've told us, I suppose you do all kinds of stunts. You're right again. I'll do anything that I think's possible, that is, if they lay the door on the line. And, uh, by the way, when did you come to Hollywood? 20 years ago from Parkersburg, West Virginia. I see. Well, tell me, a lot of people seem to think that dangerous scenes are faked. What about that? What do you think? Well, from what you've told us, I'd say they were very real. Well, you see, if the dangerous stuff were faked, the stunt men had to go out of business. As it is, there are possibly two dozen of us working practically all the time. Matt, there's one other thing I'm still curious about. When that colored fellow offered you his rabbit's foot, did you take it? Sure. Oh, so you're superstitious. Well, not exactly superstitious, but I've had good luck ever since I carried that rabbit's foot, and I wouldn't do a stunt now without it. Well, let's hope that good luck piece continues to bring you success. Matt, you've certainly entertained us, and on behalf of our listeners, I want to thank you for coming here. I know that everyone joins me in hoping that we may have you on this program again very soon. So, so long, Matt Gilman. Thanks again, and good luck.


Hi everyone, Joe for jaspyscasewrakes.com coming at you with 2019-2020 Panini Impeccable Basketball 3 box random team break number 23 Full case everyone gets a team no combos good stuff here big. Thanks everybody Right here for getting in on the action whether you got a spot straight up or whether you tried one of those filler breaks I appreciate everybody getting in one way or the other All the teams are in let's roll it. Let's randomize names and teams nine times five and a four one two Eight and a ninth and final time after nine right five and four nine times We got Oliver Smith all the way down to Brian Frank With a with a spot that he won in a filler pack five and four nine times for the teams one two three and Ninth and final time Clippers down to Cleveland this is for you All right, there you go So Oliver with the Clippers Brian with the Grizzlies Ron with the Sixers Ryan with the Lakers got my Lakers Andrew With the heat Roy with the Jazz Jake with the Wizards Dallas for Brian rich with the Thunder Andrew with the Nets Jay with the Spurs Louis with the Rockets Matthew with the Nuggets Brian with the Suns Ryan with the Celtics Russ with the Bucks Ryan with the Pistons Brian with the Hornets Louis with the Pacers Sean with the Bulls Brian. I guess there's two different Brian's. There's a Ryan's and Brian's Brian M Brian O Brian O Kings Brett Rodgers Pelicans nice Louis with the Timberwolves Warriors for Sean Dean with the Knicks Narek with the Raptors in the Magic Matthew with the Trailblazers Michael with the Hawks and Brian Frank With the Cavs we have three different brides in here Think Brian O Brian M Brian F and Orion There you go. All right, so let's sort this by column B. See you Thomas Sort this by column B by team Let's box these up right here the center it up right here And I'm gonna hit the pause button and give people a minute or two to trade and when we come back We'll see if there's any trades and then we'll have the break stick around BRB All right, welcome back folks. So No deals are done on this Friday night. It's all good. There you go Now we don't have any more impeccable on the jazzy's case breaks calm But guess what we do have which we just added to the site Penini noir basketball. So another high-end set for high-end basketball fans For high-end basketball card collectors, we got some we're gonna do this impeccable right now And then we got some noir Noir is pretty great too couple fillers for the noir and some spots straight up But I'll bet we can do this night. We do have a late-night tonight Joe LMB 50 points tonight folks with this free throw just just hit 50 and 17 rebounds he might well no, it's only 30 seconds left. It's a career high for him 50 points Looks like we got the case hit right here, which we're gonna set aside right there You can see it on the top camera. It's not going anywhere Everyone have a beat in their daily fantasy lineups Or in their season long teams, how do you stop that? I mean he can hit shots from the outside inside. It's a base card on the bottom right yet is It's 17 rebounds to It's crazy Yeah, these are good-looking boxes here mr. Flyer. All right, we're gonna lead off with Dame 53 out of 75 for Portland Matthew Shearer Bulls kept it close though for a lot of the game There's Tobias Harris one out of 25 Sixers Ron Wester We don't see a lot of is is mb exclusive to someone. I feel like we don't or maybe he just doesn't like to sign cards I feel like outside of his rookie year. We don't see a lot of mb'd stuff 4 out of 99 we got Kyle Lowry Raptors That's gonna be for Narik and we got a plate here a plate autograph bull bull Stainless stars nice that's gonna go to Matthew Shearer and the Denver Nuggets 33 of 60 and we got Lenny Wilkins old St. Louis Hawk goes to the Atlanta Hawks 6 out of 10 Michael B and we got Magic edition of Horace Grant 56 out of 99 Immortal Inc the distinctive goggles here We've got Nikhil Alexander Walker 42 out of 99 Rookie Auto for the Pelicans Brett with that one you'll find his teammate Brett and the last one here is whoa nice Dwayne Wade 12 out of 13 featuring his 13 all-star appearances Andrew Roth with the Miami Heat. That's pretty nice All right box to 50 points 17 rebounds and five assists for Joel and beat against the Bulls And in fact, I don't think he gets there if the Bulls don't keep it close And the Bulls pretty much kept it close for a lot of the game Maybe Joel and beat doesn't get to 50. Maybe they would have rested him if they were blowing them out base card here Actually turn this around this way All right. Hey, here's another good another good big man here eight out of ten and equal to a Yolkic Goes to Matthew Shearer and Denver. Oh Would I leave in the box? Oh Right that metal card case. It's back here. Thanks guys, and that's oh it's John Moran Todd what's going on? Can't forget the stainless stars John Moran card that is for Brian M 18 out of 60 thanks guys Back here forgot about that extra pack that they put in there 14 out of 25 Kobe White Bulls Shawn Matic 29 out of 99 Blake Griffin for the piston. Where does he end up Ryan Bloss with Detroit? Might be on the trading block Redemption is gonna be Romeo Langford impeccable rookie signatures for Boston Romeo. Oh Romeo. Where for art thou Romeo? Excuse me, that'll be for Ryan Bloss and Boston We got Shane Badi a 62 out of 99 illustrious ink For the Rockets Houston, that's gonna go to Louie Danny Manning immortal ink 39 out of 49 old Clipper going to Oliver Smith a couple more here. We got Keldon Johnson 16 out of 25 rookie patch and autograph Nice one for the spurs. That's gonna be for Jay goings and back here. We've got a warrior. It's Eric Pascal 55 out of 99 Warriors come out to play Shawn Matic and we got Kyrie stainless stars That'll be for the Brooklyn Nets Andrew Ross with that one and the final pack. Good luck. We got jazz at Clippers Happening in the background right now. I'm not old enough to remember. Remember what movie? I'm referencing the I guess the Wu Tang reference is referencing that movie. Is it a movie? It's in a song 52 out of 75 KD so we had Kyrie and then Katie That's the Nets Andrew Ross. I may have seen that movie once on on a video cassette No live. I don't think I remember 57 I might have seen on TV Ben Simmons. No Ben Simmons Joel and bead goes goes for a Was off 50 points 5 out of 25 Jason Tatum Ryan with the Celtics We got Derek Fisher canvas creations nice four out of 29 just two off the jersey number For my Lakers who's got my Lakers Ryan Bloss and we've got Brad Adorty 62 out of 99 for the Cavs Cleveland. This is for you Brian Frank with the Cavs few more to go. We've got Latrell Sprewell 8 out of 10 spree Timberwolves Going to Louie with Minnesota couple more to go Dylan Windler Rookie Jersey and autograph for the Cavs Cleveland. This is for you Brian Frank and the Last one is Kobe white Sean Maddock last spot mojo gets the rookie auto Kobe white Five out of 99 and there you have it ladies and gentlemen Now let's see what we have Are we gonna get some fine fine silver or we're gonna get that gold? It's not gold. It's silver. It's silver Pacers goga go go goga Vita day 21 out of 25 Big heavy cardstock. I like the logo man engraved on that fine silver Pretty nice stuff that goes to Louie and the Pacers. There you go and the price of silver To the moon. There you have it boys and girls. That was random team 23 of 2019 Phanena impeccable basketball I'm Joe. I'll see you next time for some more hoops. Bye. Bye