Good afternoon and welcome to Vermont. We are continuing our discussion on age 546 actually the racial justice statistics. And we are going to start with Kristen McClure chief data officer, agency of digital services so good afternoon and you could please introduce yourself for the record and welcome. Sorry, actually, sorry. That's all right. I mean, before we get started, Mr. Moore, I just want to kind of framing a little bit letter by no kind of where we are with this and focus for for today. So last time that you testified, you did some initial information as far as the resources that might be needed for standing up this division and doing the work as set forth in this bill. But since then I have had some conversations with folks in the appropriations committee and others, and we need to dig into that a little bit more to have a little bit more understanding of what the resources are needed, both initially and perhaps longer term. And some of the questions that have come up is, you know, it may take some number of months to hire the right people that there are certain there's certain foundational work that presumably needs to be done before we get into serious data analysis and questions. And as far as understanding the availability of data, the reliability of data, the systems that are available to provide the data in, you know, for this, etc. So we kind of want to understand how you would see this rolling out. So we want to try to understand a little bit better of what the resources are of the agency of digital services, what exactly, or maybe not exactly but a little more detailed level as far as what would they be doing, given the cost that that we would incur for that from from DBS. And what we would anticipate the division itself would be doing and when so we're trying to dig into the details a little bit more to justify whatever those resources are that are necessary, particularly for this first year, and what we would anticipate over a longer term, if that if that all makes some sense now, I know when we get this to Director Davis, you know, there are some other questions that are out there that I'd like to explore a little bit with folks today, such as the the advisory panel I don't really think that's so much on this course area as much as Director Davis, but we'll wait for her to get into some of those other issues. And I guess I'd ask, if there's anything additional that you want to throw out there up front, as far as what we're looking to understand today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you. Very good. Thank you. For the record, Kristen McClure, Chief Data Officer with ADS. Thanks for having me today. So, I'll go through and talk about the ADS resources, like staffing resources, and the timing of when I would anticipate the division. I would anticipate meeting them. So, we're talking identified data, so I'll focus in that space. So one is a database administrator. And the role the DBA database administrator is really to take the data, put it into a database, manage the database, really do that, that technical detail. Just make sure it has the appropriate security. They would also write the code to do the matching of the person from one data set to another to make sure the linkage is there. They would create the unified data set and then provide access to the division. So that role, that role you can like phase in a little later, probably about I would say a month before the data is actually going to be sent to the division. It's not one of the earlier roles that you need. So you would need about probably about a month to set up the database, get the tables ready, get the schema ready. But it's not one of the early phased roles. Any questions on that before I go to the project manager role. Yeah, I just, just one other, I just wanted to throw out one other item if you could address it as far as some of the issues I raised but also the data sharing agreements and how that fits into this process and who would be managing that as well but I didn't have any questions about the administrator. Thank you. Okay, yeah, but I'll make sure we touch on the DUAs. And I would sprinkle that in as part of the division work. Just take a note. For the other ADS role, there is one other ADS role that we recommend and that's a project management role. I would see this role as needing to start quite early on with the division roles to really plan the work, scope out the work, determine the deliverables, assess any risks and keep the project, create a project plan and keep it on track. I would see that quite early on in the process. That covers those are really only the two ADS staffing roles. Both we have scoped out is contractor at the contractor rate. So it's worth noting that as part of the cost structure. Alan, do you want me to go into the division staffing or would you like to stick with ADS cost? Let's stick with the ADS cost first if we could and then transition to the division. I appreciate that. Thank you. So there are two other components to the ADS cost one is specifically the technology component, which I'll go through. And the other is what I'll refer to as like the division costs of ADS, which kind of every division occurs in their two components to that. So the first one on the technology cost. I'll just step through the different components of it. We have the data transfer, which is each business area sending the data to the division. So that's essentially a no cost feature, very, very low and minimal cost. So I assess that at about $0. There is a hosting cost that'll be needed. So to really house the data and the database, the cost structure around that about $5,000. And again, it's based on assumptions around the size of the data. So as we better hone in on how many different data sets and the size of the data. And if the committee would like historical data included, because I did not assess any cost of historical data since it wasn't noted in the bill. But if we do have a very broad big set of data that we want included, we can better refine that. The other cost which I talked about last time was the one time CGIS setup cost, and that's a criminal justice information system cost. That's required for working with CGIS data so we would need the environment where the data lives to be CGIS compliant. So it's really a configuration cost, again a one time cost, and to create that safe CGIS environment for the data. There are a few other items listed in the bill around technology cost. One is having a public website. Again, that's essentially no cost so it's tested $0. Having a dashboard and this is, it's roughly $96 per person per year. So if we're assuming five headcount for the division is about $500. And then the last item in the technology cost is around publishing the raw data file online, which we call to open data. That's essentially zero cost as well. So from a technology cost perspective to the identified data, it's about $45,500. The last component to the ADS cost are basically costs that each agency division incurred incurs, and that's consisted of allocation and SLA which is service level agreement. So allocation costs are costs that are statewide costs. So really every agency division department in the state benefits from. So it's allocated evenly based on headcount. So for the assumptions here we modeled it after another division that has five headcount, and that would be about $30,000 for allocation costs, which is like cybersecurity. So open data would fall into that security around how we log into the computers to make sure it's a safe network. The SLA component, the service level agreement component. Again, we modeled this after a division with five headcount. It has includes an licensing cost so Microsoft Office license cost and any additional hosting cost. That's about $20,000 we've all parked for that. Any questions on the technology costs before I talk about division staffing. So, so, yeah, I did have one question. So you said the 30,000 based on five 20,000 based on five so would it pretty much be 4,000 per person for the service level and 6000 per person for the agency division I mean if so if there's fewer people we just take, we reduce that amount. For the most part, yes, exactly the where the allocation fluctuates is, if there are more state employees one year than a previous year it would be less. You know the peanut butter spread would be less if they're fewer be a little more, but for the example we have here yes that's exactly how it work. Thank you. Yeah, Kristen just a quick clarification of the cost that you just work your way through. For the most part, I think it was only one that was probably a one time cost. He's an annual cost correct. Correct. Okay thank you. Did you say how much does these. The Seages cost $40,000. Okay, I missed that okay and that would be a one time cost one time correct. And yes, the office stated were annual costs as well. And that's the one, the only one time cost. And how long would, would you expect that the project manager would be on board. I would estimate about a year and a half, potentially two years. Probably the database administrator once they start their own ongoing costs. They're an ongoing cost, I would expect. And we can kind of talk about the out years more. I would expect after the first two years, there to be a rhythm and a pattern to the, the data that's being sent and it being a little more standard and repetitive. At which point, I would expect a lower level of support needed from the database administrator. If the data continues to be every year it's like a brand new set of data and data elements and data schema and very messy. It could be the same amount of headcount throughout. I would, I would not anticipate that scenario though, I would anticipate the division getting in a groove with the business. Consistent data sets and schemas being sent. So needing less support from the DBA over time. Okay, thank you. Thank you. See the other hands right now. Okay. So I'll step through the kind of the division headcount but also, Suzanne also defer to you and please feel free to jump in. I'll start with kind of the data roles of the division. And I should mention because it was brought up last time for testimony. I think coach had brought it up. So the roles that I'm going to talk about are also included. And they were comprehended as part of our depth, some of the terminology we use is different for the responsibilities, but really similar overlap in terms of the primary responsibilities responsibilities with the exception of the database administrator that wasn't as specifically called out in our depth for the staffing. So for their two specific data roles that I had recommended for the division one was a data analyst and the other was a data steward. So a data analyst primary responsibility, analyzing the data, really doing that deep, deep analysis around the data. So I would expect the data analyst to create and maintain the dashboard that's outlined in the bill. I would expect the data analyst to be able to perform all the roles and functions that the state data steward would do. So the data analyst has somewhat of a broader skill set than a data steward. So I would expect the data analyst to also be part of the discussions around data governance with that lead. So working with the business to establish the data governance and the data definitions and standards. And the data steward typically focuses on cleaning the data, high quality of data KPIs around the data, and being the role that executes the vision of data governance so making sure the data governance is being implemented. And then Suzanne I don't want to speak for you at all talk through the lead role, if that's okay. And then you can correct me. So, certainly for the lead role to lead and coordinate the team in the direction, I would expect the lead to have the vision for how they want to roll out the data governance, how they want the business which data elements that they want to receive from the business, how to standardize the data collection of the different elements to do the to do the DUAs the data usage agreements with the different owning areas to do any contract management grant application. I think those are the key responsibilities I would see from the lead. So, as far as as timing on on when these folks should be coming on board. So, so there's, we have down five in the bill, but I've really been quite questioning whether we're going to have the work for them to do initially since isn't the first step. So I think that's one of the foundational issues of getting actually getting the agreements in place, figuring out the data. Or am I wrong, it just it just seems that we would ramp up to that level but does one need that initially to get this started. I could see where we could ramp up and when I say ramp up. Where we would want to start with the lead, at least a data analyst and a data steward to create the data usage agreements start having those discussions with the business. And then maybe once there's some traction in place to bring on the next data analyst and data steward, but I would really see that that core team of the data analyst steward lead really working at the beginning and doing all that foundation work together. Okay. So, Yeah, good. Yeah, I guess. Just sort of follow up to what you're discussing Kristen. What do you see as a timeline let's say we approve this bill gets signed we get started in July. How quickly can this all ramp up. How quickly could it all ramp up to the point where we would have. I just want to make sure I'm understanding the school. For instance, when I look at the bill. There's a report to the very beginning of 23. So this expectation there but things would be operating fully. But that's the way I read that okay is that is that is that too optimistic or is that your estimation realistic. I think that's a very aggressive timeline to be at that end state I think it's realistic to have a report of. Maybe it's four or five data sets that are complete that you've worked with the business on to anticipate full completeness in six months I think is very aggressive. Yeah, okay. Thank you. So just following up with that. Would the work progress perhaps that when you said you just mentioned the number of data sets. Would the division perhaps look at, say law enforcement, as perhaps for our system providing a data set. And then the state's attorney with whatever their new system is that's a, I understand that they're moving to, and then the courts. Those are considered each data sets essentially. Exactly. So for, for instance, the DPS side of it, I would consider traffic stops one data set use of force, a different data set. I'm not familiar with the system, I'm less familiar with that space but kind of any unique distinct data that they're collecting around bail or acquittals or convictions, maybe the same data set potentially. And in your experience are there going to be some data sets that might be a little more straightforward to deal with than others. I certainly would expect there to be some mature more mature data sets that have existing data dictionaries standard definitions around their data elements. The one that comes to mind is do see they have a very complete comprehensive data set. It's a little more mature than some other systems. So I certainly would expect them all to be at somewhat different levels. Some areas and maybe this has changed since I last investigated it but on the judicial side in the court system, I would say it's probably a less mature data set they weren't collecting race and ethnicity data at the time that may have changed over the last year and half, but for instance that I would say is probably a less mature data set. So going, going into this, if there are three individuals that we start with. They're not necessarily going to try to gather everything from everyone right up the bat they may, there may be some discussions and what the highest priorities are, or what might be the most straightforward one to bring in. I don't have a question for this is for you but so so there's work that could be done with three people pretty close to right off the bat presumably. Although there's going to be some tougher nuts to crack on some of those data sets presumably.  And we're familiar with some what familiar with the work of the crime research group. Well, we're familiar with a lot of the work they do a lot of work for us here. And we talked and she was mentioning various foundational type work and perhaps you can speak a little bit more to it but really looking at each of the data sets as we're talking about it and understanding how reliable or credible they are or what kind of systems there's what what she term foundational work and this is, would this be more of ADS or would it be both ADS the resources you talked about and the division or would that responsibility be more than division. I see that more as the division, it's a lot of that process work of creating standards, which elements to collect. Are they being collected in a consistent way across the different business areas really understanding the data collection. That foundational work I would see coming from the division. I think that's the questions I have. Are you good represents world on those issues. I am right now. Thank you. So you're going to get all that money in the budget for us now that you've heard this is that just kidding. You don't have to answer that. I'm not actually kidding. I really appreciate that I miss before that that's very helpful to have those additional details. Great, thank you. Hey else. Welcome on directors. Davis, your chance to add testimony. Thank you. Thank you all when a Saturday for the record to Santa Davis racial equity director for the state. And I am grateful to the chief data officer for being able to walk us through some of those technical costs and staffing resources. And I'm going to add a little bit more to consider, because while that is a great summary of the data and technological needs for this division to be successful, there are also a couple of additional operational slash administrative things that should be considered namely first administrative support. So I just wanted to. I find it helpful to remind folks sometimes that the agency of administration is actually a lot smaller than that we tend to think it is the AOA for example, would under the still support the council and the division, but also that would be on top of its existing capacity. So the administrative support for the agency also supports the secretary's office, the chief performance office, the racial equity office in its existing capacity, the office of risk management, the workers comp division, services, the ICAR, the interagency council on room making, and a number of other pieces to that. So would we add this division that would create an additional burden for our central staff that's already spread a bit thin and so I would just encourage us to consider that capacity and how we could support that. The other thing I wanted to mention is legal assistance. I know that in order to execute and manage the data sharing agreements and other legal questions and agreements and contracts and challenges. We're going to need robust legal support, particularly at the outset when we're setting all of this up. And I did just want to remind the room that the AOA also does not have a general counsel. A lot of other agencies around the state do what we do not. We actually rely on the general office for all of our legal assistance because we don't have a general counsel. So that's another thing just to keep in mind the necessity for that legal support again especially during the setup period. So those were the two items that I wanted to add on to what the Chief Data Officer just said. So thank you. Go ahead, Martin. I can ask a question there. Is that something that those administrative roles such as presumably setting up the advisory panel meetings, those kind of things. Is that something that would be encompassed by what we're calling the lead using the floor's terminology I mean is that, or are we talking in an additional half an FT as an administrator or how's that, how's that panel at the end. You know potentially if we consider a lead role. If we consider, well, so we want to understand the relationship between the lead who may or may not be the person referred to you as the deputy here. So if we're thinking about the lead as being maybe not a 1.0 FTE or being able to spread duties a little bit thinner than perhaps. I would just say that, you know, a big component of this is we want to make sure that we. That's this in a way that people are being compensated fairly for all of the work that we're asking them to do and that we understand what we're asking them to do at the outset. I think it would be good just to see a detailed breakdown of what we would be if we were to put those more administrative duties onto a lead. It would be helpful to see a more detailed breakdown about what exactly would be encompassed in that with these rules going together. And whether administrative support because some of that administrative support. Support the division, but may not be exclusive to the division. Right. So for example, I suppose I can think of. Well, I can't on the spot, but someone could probably think of a situation where the administrative support might be needed for the office of racial equity on the whole and it might. Benefit or support the division, but maybe not be exclusive to it. If this is somebody who may need to liaise with AOA more broadly, or with other departments and agencies, then just a clear definition of whether that person is specifically hired to support the division exclusively or whether it's a little bit of a more fluid support role as needed. That would be, I'm so sorry. I don't even know if I've answered this question. Well, I think there's still questions are I guess I'm trying to understand what this bill would be asking of appropriations and what I'm seeing right now is is that we probably can get away for a while with three people to lead the analyst the board and I'm using lead and law deputy director. I'm considering that kind of the same role, but are we adding something in addition, as far as some point something of administrative support. That that's really a question presumably Trevor that's what we need to know. We wouldn't need to know that I have just a follow on question to Suzanne. How is your space in your office a bit to your office in terms of accommodating additional folks. There is none. Okay. So we need to solve that problem too. Correct. Yes. And I mean, you know, if we're thinking with our 21st century brains, then conceivably perhaps a number of these roles could be partly or fully remote. There are tech based roles and so the possibility that maybe we could forgo some office space but again I know that a lot of data do need to be housed on site somewhere. So I don't necessarily want to volunteer staff not to have office space. They even get in the door. But I would say that right now where we are located. There is not a comfortable. I'll share that when we were hiring just or planning to hire the two racial equity staff that were authorized last year. It was a bit of a challenge just figuring out where we could find for the two workstation. So that would be another another consideration for us here. Um, so. So I guess that if we could, it's still not quite understanding how to nail that last issue down. Presumably we can talk to the AG's office, we can offline see if that this causes any resource issues with the AG's office, if they're going to have to provide this additional assistance, legal assistance. But how can we get to the point of understanding what additional resource we need for an administrator. Yeah, I mean I really I do think that it probably is appropriate to consider whether one of the existing roles might be able to be split. If, if we determine and I really would lean on the judgment of the chief data officer and the CS to the CRG representatives to let us know, can a lead the half time. At least at the beginning, you know, at the beginning of this project, if that's the case, then perhaps we could consider having that person also serve in it in a semi in a part time administrative role. But, you know, again, we just we want to make sure that the support is there not just from a data infrastructure perspective but also just from the operational side so maybe that is a good role, a good path to explore. Yeah. I know I don't want to start change this I just want to really try to nail it down so that we're having only the staff that we need. Certainly, and I guess. If Mr. Plur if you have any, could weigh in on whether that's a possibility that somebody that's in a week and do some of that work, for instance with the advisory panel and report reporting requirements. Yeah, to Susanna's point of potentially have the lead be like half head count and then other responsibilities in addition to that I think that's totally appropriate. And then much like we had talked about the DBA kind of ramping down over a few years when things are more in a steady state and established. I think that could also be appropriate for the lead to if Susanna feels the same way. I appreciate that. Thank you. So I had a couple of questions on the bill and then I wanted to turn to the advisory panel and then certainly want to open it up. I don't know if you have any other particular issues or questions with the latest draft but just from the discussion right now. I'm just looking I don't know if you have the bill in front of you but it's, I'm, I'm probably actually a draft behind but it's the same page. I'm just looking at where we're talking about the duties of the executive director of racial equity. And it's subsection e to the director main consultation with the racial justice statistics advisory board, hire a deputy director to oversee the administration and operation of the division. Is that the language necessary is that the right language, if we're not necessarily, maybe this isn't the title shouldn't be deputy director. I do need that language in there to give the authority to hire, whatever we're calling this position the lead or not or is that not necessary maybe this is a question as much for represents world as well. So here, or do we just spell it out when we're getting to the appropriation. Let me ask represents world that question first. I would have to think on a little bit of my initial reaction to that is probably doesn't need to be spelled out. We're getting the discretion to the division to figure out precisely what the title is. And, and, you know, we're getting the responsibilities at a higher level and we want to leave the discretion as much as possible with with the division to make sure they're staffing it the way they want to have it staffed. I'm just suggesting that we delete that section. There's a reason to keep that there. If you're troubled by that director Davis or not. No, I would agree. While I'm not 100% certain whether the language would be required, I would agree that if we don't need it then you could cut it. Okay. So, the other thing I'd like to jump to talking a little bit about. I mean, like I said, I certainly would like any kind of additional feedback since you've had the bill for a little bit longer is with respect to, if I can find it with respect to the, the advisory panel. And I have a couple questions I've had pushed back on on how large that advisory panel is not not just necessarily in this committee but elsewhere. It's often to have huge advisory panels, and there was a rationale for it but I have a couple things I want to throw out there and get your comment on, if I could. One would be to essentially eliminate all the members who are there as in representing their entity that's providing data. And that would be the Supreme Court, you know, Chief Justice, the Attorney General designee defender general etc. And there's that gets rid of probably 10 people, and instead have some form of language that would require each of those entities to have a committee available to the advisory panel to provide it to provide information so we can actually designate rather than they have to be at every meeting. They can be called upon by the rest of the advisory panel and the rest of the advisory panel I would certainly get rid of the two members of the General Assembly. They need to be on there. But there may be some questions on a couple of these people, but certainly the six individuals that are representing the affected communities being I think critical. Somebody who deals with mental health treatment. So if you have expertise in community based research on racial equity, maybe maybe not somebody from Human Rights Commission but any of those affected entities providing advice with these other individuals available. So I wonder if you can comment on that concept that troubles you, or if that's one way to try to have some more manageable. Martin. In our discussions. One of the possibilities was to think in terms of a liaison, you know, from those respective entities, because as the need changes over time. There might be a signing it let's say if I was the director of health. I might have one health officer be the liaison to direct certain data. And at other times, I might direct someone else, but having the liaison relationship with that entity is the key factor, I think, I think that's exactly what I'm trying to get out but you said it better than I did. That's always quote so, but yeah that's that's the concept, trying to make the panel. Easier to handle as far as the size. Any input on that and I have a second idea to throw out there as well the chat about but I think that it would be appropriate so I noticed that we have a friend of creating a new council board or commission for every new initiative that we pass. And I think that if we're judicious about how many we're creating and how large they are, then they can be useful and they can work with one another, and it can be valuable. When we do though, one of the most important pieces of it is process equity. I care less about the number of people and more about who those people are and what constituencies they represent. So if we're considering reducing the number of members of the advisory council, then I would agree with you in wanting to protect the seats that are dedicated for community members, providers, people with lived experience, etc. If we're thinking about reducing the size of the advisory council and I actually do believe that we should reduce the size of the advisory council. So I think we're really thinking along the same lines here. In terms of having access to those seats, such as the General Assembly, the Chief Justice of the court, Attorney General, Defender General, etc. I'm confident that because of the vested interest that each of those entities has in the outcome and in the process here that we wouldn't have a problem having a close working relationship with those offices, even if they don't have roles on the council. So I'm feeling fine about that. The idea of liaison is a good one. And I think it actually reminds me of another point that I wanted to make here, which was that, you know, in the bill, one of the things that I that we had concerns about was an enforcement mechanism. What happens when reporting agencies are unwilling or unable to send their data? What kind of relationship do we have with those reporting agencies and what are their mechanisms in place to ensure that that happens? And so when we think about liaison for the council and those reporting agencies, it makes sense to consider whether and to what degree those intermediaries would participate in any kind of enforcement mechanism, to make sure there needs to be one. I hope I said that clearly, but I think the summary of what I'm saying here is, sure, let's reduce the number. Yes, let's reduce it on the government side, not the community side. And also, let's think about the relationship between those government entities and not just the role that they play on the council, but also what happens when we don't get the data required. The other thing that I would say about the advisory council is that we may, you know, we do want to make sure that we're not duplicating work. I noticed that one of the duties of the council is to report on any disparities in criminal and juvenile justice, and to report on the impact of progress made and recommendations for further action to address systemic racial bias. Those two sound extremely similar to some of the reporting duties through the racial equity director and racial equity advisory panel. So, if there's an opportunity for collaboration on those, then maybe there's a good opportunity for joint reporting. Otherwise, I don't want to saddle you all as legislators, what happened to be three reports on the same topic. So those are my comments on the advisory. So, and that's page 10, I believe, subsection four of A and B, I think that you're just referring to as far as status reporting. So the idea is, perhaps, fold that in with the reporting requirements that your office already has. Well, see. Excuse me, I'm sorry. No, I apologize. Being that the Office of Racial Equities mandate by statute is those reports already. It seemed to me that in agreement with Director Davis, that if attorney Fitzpatrick can give us a little guidance around language as to how we can wrap those reports together, because they are in the same space, and they will be directed under within that office, it would seem only, you know, you know, judicious to go ahead and have those two reports linked together, because otherwise it's just another piece of paper. I think that by having the two entities work together on that report, we're going to get more robust information as to where things actually are at any given point in time. So, anyways, thank you representative and actually I know that I'm the one who raised the point but I'd also I think it's fair for me to use the counter argument which is, I know that there's a strong, a strong desire for this work to be as honest and independent as possible. And so it's very possible that we want these to be separate reports. If it's folded into the racial equity office under the executive then you know I understand that there were concerns about whether to what degree this work is housed in the office and so if the legislature so chooses we could leave those reports separate as a way to ensure that there are different work rules reporting on this so that it's not you know too consolidated so I did want to raise that I think that that would be fine, but just wanted to point it out at least. So I guess the other option. And if you can comment on whether this is workable and the independence issue already is a problematic but there is a racial equity advisory panel. And what would be the pros and cons just expanding the membership of that current panel and expanding their duties, as opposed to having this as a separate advisory panel. Okay, so that is a fascinating question and it's one that the panel and I have also considered. I think that the enabling statute that established the racial equity advisory panel and the executive director racial equity role. Did a great job of stating what were the goals of our work, but I don't think that it did a clear job of explaining the panel's concrete duties. And so, I believe that the panel would welcome a revision slash expansion of its charge, provided that that was accompanied by a commensurate bump in support and I say that because the support person for the advisory panel is again in the agency of administration, specifically the department of human resources. And that staff person also wears very many hats, as it is so the short answer is, yes, we could do that. But then let's look again at, we are in three BSA chapter 68, 5002 and 5050. Maybe we take another look at those kind of good fit. So, if I may, representative squirrel in looking at consolidating and utilizing staff, most expeditiously, and effectively, what I'm hearing is, there will be a need. For administrative support within this division. There's also built in already administrative support that is being offered by the administration itself. They need the support. And the question becomes effectiveness, but also with the growth of the office. It may be that we might look at assigning an administrator that has the functionality to be that entity that supports the advisory panel. And also supports the office and division as well. And I think that we might be able to get, you know, the most or the best value, you know, for, you know, that dollar, you know, spent, and also answer those, those needs that were bought up. And then also to look at this expansion piece, something that comes to my mind are the people who've been involved in this process, especially the community members that are specialists in the area of data. They're the same people. And so if I was recruiting someone to join the other panel, it would be one of the members from the racial equity panel already, because he's probably one of the most talented data people in that field. So we're already going to be knocking on his door. So what I'm saying is Director Davis's idea about expanding the advisory panel and possibly having a subcommittee in the panel as we redesign the charge that has the responsibility for the data. Being that the statute already enables the work to be done. Because the enabling statute has the responsibility of that office is a major data collection piece as well. So does I hope that helps a little bit representative score. No, I think the thought process is, is going in the right direction. We've already talked about some of the administrative duties, potentially being part of the lead. I think we have to have more conversation about this. I don't think from an appropriation standpoint, but this is a big issue. Thank you. So again, it comes back to a representative alone and director Davis policy perspective around design. And that's where we go to the magic man attorney Fitzpatrick, you know, I guess a question I would have is what if you could comment director Davis that is there. Would there be an issue related to the independence if we hold this into the racial equity advisory panel because just to reiterate that's one of the primary purposes of the advisory panel that has a strong presence of members communities on that panel. So we could modify the equity advisory panel adding some more members but I'm not sure. So if you just comment on what whether you can we maintain the independence critical to the structure, if we were to use the racial equity advisory panel that exists now and just expand that scope membership and support.  I am confident that whatever work is assigned to the racial equity director slash office of racial equity will be conducted objectively, but in terms of the perception of independence from the community. We would be received negatively if we did hold these this council's duties into the racial equity advisory panel, because the advisory panel is advisory to the governor. So that public perception is likely to be what it is. But yeah. Okay, no that's that's very helpful. Thank you. Thank you. I had but were there any other, any other suggestions of what we should look at with the with the bill. Either director Davis or or this before any other issues that you could raise are we are we getting close with the rest of the language. I have no further comments on the latest version. Thank you. How about you director Davis, anything else. For now I don't think so thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. So what was hoping that we could hear from from Karen and, and, and Dr Crocker just, you know, if we could just get a sense from them because they dealt with this kind of data. I feel that we're on the right track if they have any input on where we're going. That would be helpful and also, we haven't gone into this that much and maybe we back up to director Davis for a moment if, if you can. We've gotten really technical I would like to before we get to Karen go back up to a higher level and if you could explain to us again, the importance of what we're trying to accomplish here. I know that that came out previous testimony, but that'd be very helpful for us to kind of reset kind of why are we doing this. Absolutely. So, you know, it's 2020 is certainly not the beginning of racial equity work in this country or state by any means. But it was really pivotal, I think in a lot of ways for state government and local government and for communities and corporations and everyone under the sun. It really marked the time where we started seeing more conversation and more gesture and has to be much more discerning about which of them were performative, and which of them were good faith, sincere efforts to move the needle on equity. And I cannot help myself, but to remind everybody all the time that equity benefits everybody always. And so, if we have work that we say is valuable and needs to be done and important. That is only true unless we meaningfully and tangibly invest in that work. We can't say we love our youth without investing in youth. We can't say we want to fix housing unless we invest in housing. Similarly, we can't say that we really want to move the needle on equity and not just in criminal justice, but in any other sector, without really being able to do what it takes and pay what it costs. So, if we were to create this work flow, and if we do it right, then what we're going to do is have more eyes and more focus on disparities in justice. And we know that criminal justice is both an upstream and a downstream factor. There are a lot of things that happen in a person's life before getting involved in the justice system. And that person's involvement in the justice system leads to cascading other consequences. So, once we have better focus and more attention and more resources to support these analyses, then we're going to be able to make smarter, better and more economical policy decisions as a result. What it also does is signal to all of the law enforcement agencies around the state and to the state as whole that this is a priority. It's something that we care about. It's not just a two page policy or a resolution or a declaration that we signed one and never revisited. It's an active and ongoing effort to monitor what we already know to be unjust so that we can get to the point where it stopped being unjust by default. If I can continue to predict people's outcomes based on their skin color, we're not there yet. And if we want to keep being upset and disappointed in ourselves by not getting there yet, then let's just do what we've been doing. But if we want to get to the point where we are leaders locally and nationally, which we often are the state, then it seems to me that the past forward is do more look closely and again, tangibly invest in the things that we say are important. I am going to stop there because I could do this for hours. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I wonder if I can ask Karen a question off the bat. I see why don't we let Karen introduce herself for the record. Welcome. Good afternoon. Hi everyone. Thank you for having me. I'm Karen Gannett, the executive director of crime research group. Well, this is Gannett. So, I know that you've been dealing with criminal justice data in Vermont for years, and you certainly provided us in the judiciary committee with a lot of very important data where actually we're looking at some of your output. Just yesterday with respect to different offenses, but given given that history given the work you've done. Why, why do we need to be doing this initiative what what's the benefit from your perspective. Well, I can't say that I can say it any better than Susanna just said it. She's way more articulate than I am on the issue. But I will say, I can add that one of the documents that we've been looking at in our in the ARDAT meetings and we've been very active in the ARDAT meetings. We did the summer meetings weekly from six to eight on Monday nights, which was everyone grown. But we all were there and we, you know, got to work and we did a lot of work on and getting that report out to you all. And we use the actionable intelligence for social policy toolkit for centering racial equity throughout data integration. And I think it's ASIP AISP. It's a toolkit from the University of Pennsylvania and they did they did a phenomenal job of putting together a toolkit that really talks about exactly that centering racial equity throughout data integration, which is exactly what we're doing here. And one of the things that they said that I that I think really captures what's what what's behind this bill and what ARDAT was trying to do striving to do. And they said and I'm going to I'm going to quote something from that toolkit. In moment in history, we can co create data infrastructure to promote racial equity and the public good, or we can invest in data infrastructure that disregards the historical social and political context, reinforcing racial inequity that continues to harm communities. Data infrastructure without a racial equity lens and understanding of historical context will exacerbate existing inequalities along the lines of race, gender class and ability. Instead, we commit to contextualize our work and the historical and structural oppression that shapes it and organize stakeholders across geography sector and experience to center racial equity throughout data integration. And that's exactly what this bill and what our DAP has been attempting to do and I do think it's a historical moment in Vermont's history. I think the setup of the office of racial equity was historic. And I think this is historic. And I think that I think one of the last things I was I was going to end with this but I'll start with it is that so many projects and initiatives are stood up without the appropriate funding to make them successful. And, and I understand you all want this to be successful but so many times we're trying to chip away at what's in the budget that people present. And the leaders of those projects and initiatives and I could, I could name some scramble from day one to make it work without the necessary funding. And then we watched this happen and then we wonder why we're not getting the outcomes that we were hoping to achieve. And the answer is always what wasn't funded appropriately so I would encourage you to really consider in your deliberations to fund this as best you can to the highest extent you can possible to make sure ADS and the new division are successful. And I so totally understand the budget implications, but one of the things that I think is really important to understand is the foundational work that has to happen before any data analysis happens. And this is where I think that the lead person, whatever their responsibilities is incredibly important to helping put together that foundational work. We're doing some of it be in the background, trying to get things set up for ADS and the division, going forward and we're hoping to hand that work off to them as soon as the bill passes and they're set up. And one of the things we've I know you've heard from Tonya Marshall not too long ago in this committee that the archivist and data records, the director for. I actually don't even know her, her formal title but she was, she did a phenomenal job in your committee and she's been working with us and she's, she's actually working with us on looking at people systems and data, and having people that are responsible in the departments that have to get the data to ADS and the division, and having someone responsible and have the authority for getting the data over to ADS and the new division, making sure the systems have what they need. When, when director Davis mentions you know what's the, what's the consequence for for department not sharing data. Some of what we found in our work is that sometimes departments don't have the data to share or they can extract it from their systems they don't know what to do they don't know how to get it out of their systems. They can work with them over time to actually make that happen. And so making sure the systems are built up and enhanced enough to make that possible is a really important piece to this and then the other piece he talks about is the data themselves and making sure that the data has is reliable and is credible and what needs to be done to make sure that happens in not only each one of the departments but sometimes the departments have more than one data system. So this is some of the foundational work that has to happen up front. And I think it's really important to recognize this it's not the, it's not the fun part of data analysis getting data and doing data analysis. It's really the, the foundational grunt work that has to happen. And that includes getting the data sharing agreements and the MOUs and making sure someone is there that can help make that happen right off the bat is is a really critically critically important function. And I think I went way beyond answering your question representative long. I answered my three other questions that I was going to follow up with. So that's handy. So, do you feel I mean, it would be the lead analyst and the steward as we defined it that would be doing this foundational work or is that your understanding that that's kind of the appropriate setup. We could presumably do more if we had more of them but but those are the positions that would do this kind of work. Yes, and I think and Christian current can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the project manager AGS is critical to this as well. Okay, thank you. I just want to mention that, you know, as we've been talking about data, it's not just new data that we're looking at here but there are also existing data sets, and there's existing data that can be accessed. So, having having the analyst on board to help identify data and existing data sets and learning about Vermont data is also a really important piece it's not like someone can be hired and come on and immediately start analyzing data. There are a lot of nuances to the criminal justice system and the criminal justice data. And so there is a period of learning that's going to have to happen for that data analyst and the data steward. I'm good. Thank you. Thank you. I'm not see. No question or if that's your hand from before. Thank you Karen anything else before we. Thanks. That was a leg legacy and Madam chair. Thank you. Okay. Professor Crocker. You would like to. Thank you for your conversation. Good afternoon and welcome. Hi, I'm Abby Crocker. I'm a professor of statistics at the University of Vermont. And I'll just sort of echo my, my support for this bill as I'll, and also like thank you for doing all the work to get it to this point and being so intentional about it. And I think what some others have said about the, the potential that this sort of division has for being sort of a game changer for the state is, you know, is something that, you know, I can't emphasize enough. I think it's just centering racial equity and data integration, which, you know, the, the platform that is developed right now, I actually think is a great way to sort of scaffold and add to it sort of across domains, you know, start with criminal justice, but there's no reason not to add education or health or whatever down the road. By starting small, you're ensuring that you're setting up the system well for expansion. The positions you've described sound great to me. I really appreciated. Kristen, you're walking through a lot of the process and the details of the balance between the division and ADS for how it will physically work and appreciated the attention to the data use agreements. It might echo that the lead person. I would hope that that person would also, you know, mentioning focusing on the legal issues around ensuring the right data use agreements to build the data set. But at the same time, another complimentary data use agreement about how to share it with external researchers like myself and all of the faculty at the University of Vermont and graduate students and such. And I think having a centralized data resource that's connected so well and grounded in the Office of Racial Equity and has this advisory group function means, you know, it's sort of like a one place to go to for to partner to do sort of state level or policy level kinds of processes and answer research questions that are, you know, in of interest to the state and so when we talk about investing in these, you know, this handful of positions as a way to actually invest resources to increase analytic capacity I would also add that I actually think investing in these few positions you increase the analytic capacity of the state, you know, exponentially, because it creates a pathway for folks like myself and partner with the state to do this kind of work which, which has been more challenging for everybody in the past, and it's just something that hasn't existed which is, I think one of the reasons we're here today is, we don't have enough analytic capacity we don't have enough of the, the centralized resources to answer the questions that we know are really important to inform the work I think this, this, this division supports that, and I would just say, as you're thinking about ramping it up. The, the thing that jumps out to me is this importance of the foundational work and that mention of, well once we get the data system set up well then it's sort of just running and the intention would be to set it up well as early as possible, meaning also when you're thinking about what data to collect from the different systems. Be thinking sort of broadly so that you don't have to go back to the same data set and say oh we should have gotten that while we were in there we should have gotten that while we were in there. And so thinking about meeting the needs not only of like the specific dashboarding requirements but also the future research questions in the future potential of those different data sets. So that when we do find ourselves X number of years down the road saying oh let's let's work together to do this analysis to answer this question. We're not saying oh we'd have to go back and go back to that original data set and rebuild it so I think that foundational work and building a as much of a comprehensive data set as possible from the beginning. So recognizing we'd add entities, you know, sort of one at a time would be great, as well as the intentionality of establishing some of those data use agreements. Not only to build the data set but also to leverage more of the analytic capacity across the state would be things to consider. Thank you. Okay, thank you this is for me very very. It really has Trevor. Yeah, I have a question for Kristen. Am I correct in thinking that when you talked about the database administrator and the project manager for ADS that these are going to be contractors these are people you're going to bring on board or people you've worked with before. Yes, they will be contractor. Okay, and then, given your experience probably in the workplace, knowing all the workforce challenges we've had across every department, every group. Do you foresee any real challenges and hiring the kinds of people were talking about to do the work. Well short answer yes. Getting strong qualified candidates is really challenging especially in the technology space. So, yes, that's, I'd say an ongoing challenge. Okay, I expected that answer. I don't have any other questions at this time, but committee thanks for inviting me. This has been very helpful for me to do a deeper dive into this this bill and the expectations of the bill. Thank you. Thank you representative squirrel thank you so much for coming. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Yes, please. Thank you.


What I'm drawing here is a sensory pathway. From fingertip to brain, from sensory receptor to sensory cortex. Through a peripheral nerve, the spinal cord, the brainstem, always ending up on the opposite side of the brain. Now if we take everything else away, we see that the pathway is divided into three parts. That's three separate neurons. The first, second and third order neurons. The first order neuron picks up the information and transfers it to the second order neuron, which begins somewhere in the spinal cord or the brainstem. The second order neuron conveys the information to the cell body of the third order neuron, which is usually in the thalamus. The third order neuron conveys the info to the sensory cortex. Now before we go any further, let's just cover some brief revision. Neurons consist of axons and cell bodies. Individually these are microscopic, but when bunched together, they appear white and gray. In the central nervous system, i.e. the brain and the spinal cord, we call discrete chunks of gray matter nuclei. Again, in the CNS, we call chunks of gray matter nuclei. In the peripheral nervous system, i.e. everything apart from the brain and the spinal cord, ganglia. Again, the discrete chunks of gray matter in the peripheral nervous system we call ganglia. The cell body of the first order neuron is packed into a ganglion called the dorsal root ganglion. There are heaps of these, one for every spinal nerve. Just a bunch of cell bodies from nerves that relate to the same spinal nerve. Okay, so now let's talk about some individual sensory pathways. Let's take the spinal thalamic pathway first. That's the brain, brainstem, spinal cord, and yeah, that's it. I'm going to cut away the spinal cord at the level that this nerve that we've been following enters. Let's say that's around T5 or the fifth thoracic spinal nerve. As we mentioned, the first order neuron has its cell body in the dorsal root ganglion. Its axon keeps going and drops its info on the cell body of the second order neuron which will be sitting in the dorsal horn of the spinal cord's gray matter. The dorsal horns there. Okay, from here, this is where the crossover happens for the spinal thalamic pathway. There are two options for where it will cross over to and which path it takes depends on the type of info that neuron is responsible for transmitting. So if that neuron is responsible for transmitting information about crude touch, then its axon will move anteriorly around here. If that neuron is responsible for transmitting information about pain and temperature, its axon will move laterally over here. And these chunks here are the anterior and lateral spinal thalamic tracts.  If we zoom out to get our bearings, yeah, that makes sense, the anterior spinal thalamic tract here, lateral here. So information has already crossed over, let's say, into the anterior spinal thalamic tract. So we continue up toward the thalamus, which sits right on top of the midbrain and which contains the cell body of our third-order neuron. So the thalamus is essentially one big nucleus, all grey matter. And now we've found our cell body in the thalamus for our third-order neuron and its axon shoots to the sensory cortex to drop our information off. If we remember our sensory homunculus, we can work out where this axon will go. The hand and the fingers should be represented somewhere around here. Okay, and that's it for the spinal thalamic pathway. Let's move on to the dorsal column, medial lemniscus pathway. Same again. Our first-order neuron starts out here and has its cell body in the dorsal root ganglion. Let's cut the spinal cord again and move closer because instead of dropping its message here as in the spinal thalamic pathway, the axon keeps on going onward and upward up the spinal cord. Specifically, our axon moves in here to continue upward because all of this here between the dorsal grey horns is the dorsal column. Split down the middle, of course. Right and left. And this neuron will end up around here-ish because this half is split again into two separate parts. Two separate bundles. One called grass aisle, D for grass aisle, and one called cuneate. And if the nerve we were talking about was coming from the legs, they'd be in the grass aisle bundle because gracilis is in the leg. If the nerve's coming from the arms or the upper body, it'll be in the cuneate bundle. This actually makes a lot of sense because if we start adding white matter down here, down the legs, we're going to pack it on immediately, laterally. The leg neuron comes in here and moves up. And upper abdominal neuron comes in here and moves up. And as you can see, pack on medial to lateral. Somewhere along the way, we decided to arbitrarily divide these two bundles. Essentially this is a continuous piling on. But we've divided them in our minds into separate bundles. One that holds everything from below, the grass aisle bundle. And one that holds everything from T6 and above the cuneate bundle. As you recall, our axon was heading into the cuneate bundle. So let's continue on from there. On the dorsal aspect of the spinal cord, we continue moving up. Now first order neuron is still travelling up the cuneate bundle. Now in the medulla here, there's some nuclei that we should know about. There's two cuneate nuclei and two grass aisle nuclei. We want the cuneate obviously. And in there is the cell body of our second order neuron. So here we have C cuneate and G dorsal nucleus. And having reached our cell body in the cuneate nucleus, we're at the critical moments and we are going to swap sides. That's a bit confusing. So again, it's the job of the second order neuron. Axon of the second order neuron which does the crossing over. And now that we've crossed, we're going to move up in a ribbon of white matter called the medial lemniscus. I'll zoom out to get a better look at that. Okay, so here we have on both sides medial lemnisci. Ribbons of white matter. We're going to move up the contralateral medial lemniscus and the cell body of our third order neuron is again anathalamus and this is all revision now. The third order neuron heads from there out to the sensory cortex. Info travelling this pathway is either fine touch, proprioception which is our sense of where our various bodily bits and pieces are in space pressure and vibration. And that's it. I hope you feel like you understand these pathways just a little bit better now. Thank you as always for watching. I hope you liked this video and we'll see you next time.


I don't understand what's kind of wrong in our world in which any school district is encouraging this It just seems like it doesn't belong and I say that I just have to pause real quick Look at the the Chiron here PA teachers encouraged to attend kink transects and BDSM workshop I don't know what this story is, but I can assume they're grossly misrepresenting it But nonetheless, I want to get to the the highlight here Uh, right you and I are in the room with I think every other parent, right? Who says first of all one do not introduce this stuff to my kids Lady, do you honestly think that teachers are teaching your children about BDSM?  When is that going to happen when your kid turns 18?  So this is our collection of um whips and chains Are you ever going to have this conversation with your kid?  Absolutely, but Be real and not for anyone else and all of this hype and everyone feeling so good about it It is absolutely disgusting What happened to the days where and i'm sorry to to lay this on men But boys would have a playboy stuck under their bed and it would be hidden and no one knew that they were looking at it Or the days of pornography You know pornographic videos that is all gone. There is nothing that is is is sacred and is Uh, it's something for parents to deal with with their kids It is all out in the open and the fact that we are paying these people with our tax dollars To go out and promote this because this is the school district which is paid for by taxpayer dollars Should have everyone whether you're a parent or not really agitated. Okay as they're like Talking about this. I have seen nothing here that looks Um remotely controversial. I've brought up the conference. We'll look at that But um, I'm gonna have to break it to her aren't I what's her name again? Jennifer Nassour Jennifer the reason why you're not finding playboys under your son's beds And you might want to be sitting down for this Jennifer Is because they're watching pornography on their phones now Yeah Yep They're still doing the same thing. Just now there are different mediums. See now in 2022 We have this thing called the internet and a lot of people consume media books movies music Through the internet now. So there's no need for kids to get a playboy. I mean if they walked into a store I don't know if they could per I don't think that they'd be allowed to purchase it when I worked at walmart We had a lot of restrictions like kids couldn't buy m rated video games Um, so I'd imagine that you couldn't do that but I mean a kid could just go online And uh look at porn So the fact that you didn't know this either says that you're naive Or stupid or something else But I mean for her to say this I have no words now. Let's look at this conference here So the claim is that they are trying to teach children about btsm Right, is that what they want? So let's let's read about this to see how controversial this really is um Joined thousands of transgender non-binary gender variant people and their allies when they come together in the name of trans wellness In all senses of the word at the largest free conference in the world so This is just like Trans people getting together for wellness Why is that bad? Is it just Trans teachers and their allies like I'm trying to figure out why if they're trying to outrage form How are they getting that from this? General and continuing education track registration Exhibitors and sponsors and registration not seeing anything yet going virtual um about Documenting our history Okay, let's read all of it. This is only a couple of paragraphs The philadelphia trans wellness formally trans health conference was founded and developed by charlene arcilla Ben singer and june Dizon dizon along with countless other community members We at the mizoni center want to do our best to utilize the resources and information We currently have to access to to lift up the crucial work of charlene on the conference and beyond We understand that the history presented here is not the only story to be told and we're committed to seeking out ways To elevate the work of others who've played pivotal roles in the conference's growth that work is still ongoing If you have information and or materials, okay, this is literally not saying anything.  So this this is the issue seemingly life in philadelphia um when charlene arrived in philadelphia she began working for uh The philadelphia aids consortium whose mission is to ensure the availability and coordination of comprehensive and integrative health and social services To individuals who experience lack of affordable health care hiv sexually transmitted diseases. So that's when uh, it came out Sexually transmitted diseases talking about prevention. Um, okay, so maybe maybe it's not going to be in the about page What about safety and health cobit update? Um, okay, there's a lot of text. They're not going to read it. Let's just do a quick control f btsm Nothing Sex nothing kink nothing folks I don't get it.  Where is this? And first of all, this is for adults. It's a health and wellness conference So why on earth would that be bad? This is actually good unironically so I think that adults should have more options like they should they should have more resources I think making the personal connections is really important I just I don't get it. I don't get it Conservatism is a mind disease And they're very clearly looking for something to be outraged over.  I see nothing Strategic meetings management. Is there anything here? I mean Oh, nope.  You shouldn't have to look at every single link here on this page But yet I did and I found nothing.  I'm not necessarily sure But all it takes to dismantle one of their talking points is to literally take like one minute to google what they're talking about And then you realize oh my god, they're grossly misrepresenting what they're talking about or They're just fabricating an issue. They're making up something. So yeah Conservatism in america in 2022 Still the same it's never going to change


think, I think that this should be fun and should be interesting. And it gives you a perspective because these seven deadly sins, well, it's kind of dogma within a particular branch of Catholicism and so on. You'll be able to see how influential they have been in our culture among Protestants, among secularists, just generally in the culture. These are considered sinful because they're basically represent, they represent altruism, they present applications of altruism and we'll see, for Christianity at least, what you'll see here is what altruism really means. And it doesn't mean helping other people. It doesn't mean helping other people. Riley says, as far as I know, the seven deadly sins are Catholic invention. Yeah, as is all of Christianity, there's a Catholic invention in some respect, right? All right, seven deadly sins, seven deadly sins, kind of a variety of different variations of this existed in early Christianity. Originally, there were eight. They were considered cardinal sins because they led to every other sin possible. They were considered thoughts. They were considered evil thoughts, you know, in a variety, in three different categories, there were eight. But then in 590 AD, Pope Gregory I revised the list. He made it a more common list. He integrated it. He integrated some of the previous ones. He added envy onto the list. And Gregory's list has become the standard list of the sins. Thomas Aquinas defended Gregory's list in his Summa Theologica and he calls them capital sins because they had the head. And form of all the others. So every sin starts with one of these. Just like in Objectivism, we have cardinal values. These are the cardinal sins, capital sins. The Lutheran Church, the other Christian denominations all retained this list. Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist have all retained this. And even the Evangelical, even the modern Evangelicalist, such as Billy Graham, have explicated the seven deadly sins. So this is common Christian dogma. This is not some bizarre one. This is not something out of context. This is not some little cult somewhere. This is common core central to Christian belief. These are things to be avoided. These are the roots of all other sin. This is the essence of being a bad human being. Being an evil human being. Dante in his famous poems, he actually defined all these seven cardinal sins. Defined them in terms of perverse or corrupt versions of love, which is interesting. Interesting. Lust, gluttony, and greed, notice this, are all excessive or disordered love of good things. I don't know what an excessive love of good things is. That's interesting, right? Excessive love of good things. Wrath, envy, and pride are perverted love directed towards others' harm. And it's all exception to sloth, which is a deficiency of love. So sloth is a deficiency of love. So that's Dante in a defined comedy. And, you know, he places different people committing difference of these sins and the different rungs of hell. Remember, these seven deadly sins have deadly consequences.   These are sins that lead you to eternal damnation. And you could be in different rungs of hell, as Dante describes in the defined comedy. All right, so let's go over these. Right? I mean, the first one, the most fun one, obviously. What we need today, what I call the new intellectual, would be any man or woman who is willing to think. Meaning, any man or woman who knows that man's life must be guided by reason, by the intellect, not by feelings, wishes, whims, or mystic revelations. Any man or woman who values his life and who does not want to give in to today's cult of despair, cynicism, and impotence, and does not intend to give up the world to the dark ages and to the role of the collectivist brought. All right. Before we go on, a reminder, please like the show. We've got 163 live listeners right now. 30 likes. That should be at least 100. I figure at least 100 of you actually like the show.  But at least the people who are liking it, you know, I want to see, I want to see a thumbs up. There you go. Start liking it. I want to see that go to 100. All it takes is a click of a click of a thing, whether you're looking at this, and you know, the likes matter. It's not an issue of my ego. It's an issue of the algorithm. The more you like something, the more the algorithm likes it. So, you know, and if you don't like the show, give it a thumbs down. Let's see your actual views being reflected in the likes. But if you like it, don't just sit there, help get the show promoted. Of course, you should also share. And you can support the show at your own book show dot com slash support on Patreon or subscribe star or locals and show your support for all for the work, for the value. Hopefully you're receiving from this.  You'll know what shows are on when they're on. You'll get notified. So, yes, like, share, subscribe, support, like, share, subscribe, support. There you go. Easy. Do one or all of those, please.


Hey everybody, what's going on? I am Greg Sussman joined today by Jim Sotis of Fandle who's here to bring down the late round quarterbacks that you should be targeting in your fantasy football drafts. What's going on Jim? I'm all good Greg because when you look at this list like there are some pretty fun and big names available late in drafts and honestly like we could have gone six deep with quarterbacks to target late because there are so many good late-round options like I love me Dak Prescott and Kyler Murray and Deshaun Watson and guys like that in the middle rounds. But with you have players like this who may not have the same upside as Dak Prescott and Kyler Murray but still have like a path to a really good year. It's kind of hard not to wait. So I think this is a really fun year to talk about some late-round quarterbacks for sure. Looking at the list that we're going to go over today, one quarterback on the list, everybody's talking about. Another quarterback I was kind of stumbling around looking at stats about and like why are not enough people talking about him? And then the first quarterback we're going to talk about it was the most obvious name you were ever going to send me and that is Jared Goff. There was no way we were going to do a late quarter late-round quarterback faddle hurry up without going in a deep dive about Jared Goff. His ADP is 140. Mr. Goff's truth or spit your gospel.  I will happily take up that mantle and especially when he's going so late in drafts it's hard not to be on board of Jared Goff. I know that I've been irrational in my adoration of Goff in the past, but I think here it makes a lot of sense because it's just he's going so late in drafts. If you want to have upside as a quarterback and fantasy, you either need to run, which we'll talk about Cam Newton later on, or you need to combine volume with efficiency. And I think that Goff could potentially do that this year because last year was a really weird season. There were seven times where Jared Goff completed a pass where the receiver was taken out of the one yard line. That is according to a rich rebar of sharp football, which means that his touchdowns will regress. You look at his touchdown rate, where it was at last year compared to where it was at the previous two years. It went way down. You expect that to normalize in the future. So we should expect touchdown regression for Jared Goff this year. I also expect a ton of volume out of this passing offense because that defense lost a lot of key contributors last year. Yeah, they had Jalen Ramsey for the full year, but they lost five guys who were major factors on defense. That's a lot to replace. They're probably going to have to score a lot of points and we know the Rams are willing to throw a lot and willing to operate at a fast pace. So if we're making like a betting board here, Jared Goff, I think needs to be the favorite to lead the league in pass attempts. And if his efficiency rebounds even just a bit from where it was last year, he'll be a top 10 quarterback pretty easily. If he gets back to efficiency levels that he had in 2017 or 2018, he could be a top five quarterback with not all that much effort. So I think that Jared Goff going as quarterback 16 right now, that more than accounts for the uncertainty around the offensive line and the changeover with Brandon Cooks being gone. I think that's enough to help compensate. So Jared Goff with the cost being down and with the efficiency or the regression potentially coming, I think now is a great time to get Jared Goff in your rosters as always. That's what I was going to say. Now is a good time to get him on your rosters, not, not always, but it's the truth. Jared Goff in this cast with the Rams, it is totally different, right? There is no Brandon Cooks, there is no Todd Gurley. The offensive line has gotten older and that had to replace some parts. But Sean McVeigh's creative genius hasn't gone anywhere. And I think you're going to see players step up. We saw them change the offense midway through last year with Tyler Higby really becoming a huge, huge part of it. And I think Jared Goff, in the games that he is not so good, he looks really bad. But then there's those games where he has his 400 yards and the four touchdowns. You're like, all right, that's the guy I want to start in fantasy football. When you're drafting him as quarterback 16, there's there's no risk because you could drop him at any point. You could have two quarterbacks and start him only in the good matchups. He cost you nothing at pick 140. One quarterback that you may want to pair with Jared Goff potentially, ideally, when he's at home, that's Ben Roethlisberger. He's going exactly the same spot here as Jared Goff. And I felt like not enough people are talking about Big Ben this upcoming season. I know that his contemporaries have all moved on or gone away, right? Eli Mann is retired. Philip Rivers is in Indianapolis, but better off, this program is still the starting quarterback with the Pittsburgh Steelers. And last time we saw him healthy in a full season, well, he was really good. He was the Big Ben that we always could come to expect. Now, this year, I think we're going to see one of two Big Ben's, right? The one that kind of steps right back into that starting role using utilizing Juju Smith-Schuster and Yonte Johnson and passing it off to James Conner and the Ben that we're used to dominating. Or he could fall off the cliff like his contemporaries did. Which Big Ben do you expect to see this year? I honestly have no idea. But I think it goes back to the you said, Greg, where even if Ben Roethlisberger is not the Big Ben that we saw back in the past, we can cut bait there because he's going so late in drafts that the opportunity cost of using Big Ben is not that high. So I think that it makes a lot of sense to take that risk and use him here because he can very well belong in the same bucket as Jared Kauff, where you could combine efficiency with volume. Now, we haven't seen Big Ben in a full season with no Antonio Brown in quite some time. So maybe you're concerned about that and that's a justifiable concern because Antonio Brown, the wide receiver, can help elevate an offense. But it's not as if the Steelers have ignored that position. They have taken Juju Smith-Schuster, Deontae Johnson, Chase Claypool, James Washington, all within the first three rounds over the past four years. That is an addition to signing Eric Ebron, who I think is still a guy who can make a difference with the passing offense there. So they've got receivers there, despite not having Antonio Brown. When you have a good situation around you, that is a situation where a quarterback can do well in fantasy because you expect quarterbacks, regardless of their talent, to do well in good situations. And I think that Big Ben has that situation just to question whether or not the talent is still right there. So good pieces around him. They've shown a willingness to be super pass heavy when Ben Ralthusberger is healthy. And if the elbow is not right, like I said, you can just dump him and replace him. He's quarterback 17 right now on the draft board. I think that's enough to offset the risk around him. And we can still get the upside here. So both Goff and Ralthusberger, two key guys to target who could combine volume with efficiency. I think when you're in this range, not that I want to schedule a hunt so early, but when you're drafting quarterback 16 and 17, I'm looking at matchups early in the year. And I know in week one, Ben Ralthusberger faces the New York Giants pathetic defense at home on Monday Night Football. What is wrong with starting Ben Ralthusberger in week one? There is nothing. So take that for whatever it's worth. One last quarterback to chat about, and this is the one that I think is gaining a lot of momentum in fantasy circles. And that brings us to Cam Newton. He's 148 going at pick 148 or 49 ish at the moment. And I drive the Cam Newton last year for all the reasons you're going to tell us to drive Cam Newton this year, right? Because he could utilize his legs. When everybody plays at full season, he's a top five quarterback. He's going to fall into the end zone and you can get him for nothing. Did I miss anything? No, that's it. We can wrap up the analysis there. I think we're all set. You checked all the boxes there, Greg. But I think that Cam Newton, like you said, the upside is definitely there. Whereas Ralthusberger and Goff were more guys who were going to have the volume and efficiency. Cam Newton can definitely have the rushing. And I think that's still going to be something within his repertoire, despite the fact that he's had all these injuries. It seems like he's fully healthy. We've seen all the workout videos. There have been no negative reports from camp from an injury perspective. So it seems like we've got the regular Cam Newton back and it's easy to forget how good of a fantasy player the regular Cam Newton was. And he was tremendous. Like you said, he's basically a top five quarterback every time he is fully healthy. He's going to the Patriots. We know that Josh McDaniels could cook up really good schemes and utilize the best assets of his offense. Like Tim Tebow was a fantasy relevant player playing under Josh McDaniels. And Cam Newton is years beyond Tim Tebow from a talent perspective. So we get Cam, hopefully with rushing. But even if not, I think there's still a chance he could be a really fantasy relevant quarterback. I definitely do like that. He's a quarterback 18 right now. I think that that is a result of the potential ambiguity around the situation in camp for the quarterback to the Patriots. People may be uncertain about whether Cam will be starting quarterback there. But all the reports around Jared Sedum are not so great, Bob. And I think that that definitely increases the odds of Cam gets that job, which we should have expected from the from the outset. So Cam, I think it's pretty likely to be the quarterback for the Patriots. If things skew a different way, again, just cut bait and go elsewhere. Quarterback because the risk here with Cam Newton is mitigated by where he's going at draft. So Cam, the upside still there. We haven't seen it in a while, but I think it is still there and the risk is low.  The biggest thing here is there is no downside to drafting Cam Newton because if he stinks in week one or week two, you can just cut bait at that moment and go in a different direction. If he's not falling in the end zone, they're handing it off to Rex Burkhead and you're getting enraged because you own Damian Harris. I get it, but that's OK. Cam Newton you can hold on to if he's getting into the end zone. If he's being the Cam of old or if you just feel like he's missing a step, then you can cut bait. That's the point when you're drafting a quarterback at QV 18, which is where Newton is going right now. Jim Sannis, we appreciate the time. Good luck in your draft this weekend. Thank you. Same to you, Greg. Hopefully you get one of these three guys are honestly like Joe Burrow.  So you've got options late. Hopefully one of them falls into your lap and we can celebrate on Monday. My big auction draft actually is on Sunday. Danny Dimes is the target. I know you're excited about that, Jim. So we will certainly discuss it on Monday. For Jim Sannis, I am Greg Sussman. Cannot wait to talk more fantasy football. Have an awesome weekend. Good luck in your drafts. And we'll do it all again next time right here on the FanDuel Hurry Up.