You were just chatting while y'all got yourselves together. Is Robin back? I'm here. I'm going to share my ... So I need to do ... Do I still need to do the preamble? I think we should. I was actually going to ... I like that you do it, Jane. I know it's really redundant for everyone who's been listening, but it's not that I want to share it. Okay. You can speed read it. So it can use it. I'm just not a fast talker. You've probably noticed by now. Maybe you could sing it. Make it more interesting for us. Yeah, to the tune of the Yellow Rose of Texas, just like ... Okay. All right. So welcome to the Amherst Historical Commission public hearing and ... I'm sorry, public meeting on Wednesday, September 16th, 2020, based on Governor Baker's executive order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law signed Thursday, March 12th, 2020. This meeting is being held virtually using the Zoom platform. My name is Jane Wald and as chair of the Amherst Historical Commission, I'm calling this meeting to order at 6.05 p.m. This meeting is being recorded and minutes are being taken as normal. We'll take a roll call of commissioners in attendance. So as you hear your name called, answer affirmatively, and you can unmute if you're muted, and then put yourselves back on mute or just keep on going. So, Jane, quickly, I just want to interrupt, sorry. Jane Shuffler is not attending tonight. And so I don't know if someone else would volunteer to take minutes. Just throwing it out there. Okay. Was it high? I offered Ben. I didn't offer to do it. I'll do it. Okay. So Robin's taking minutes. Robin, are you here? I am here. Pat off. Are you here? Present. Janet Marquardt. Yep. Heady startup. Yes. So I'm here. Jane Wald. I'm here too. Jane Shuffler. Is not here. Okay. So we do have a quorum. So I'll include this, this bit just for what it's worth, please use the raised hand function to ask a question or make a comment.  After speaking, remember to remute yourself. Opportunity for public comment will be provided. public comment period. Please be aware commissioners need not respond to comments during the general public comment period. If guests wish to make a comment during that time when called on please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes and at the discretion of the commission chair. With that, we can begin with announcements if there are any. I don't think I have any. Hearing none. Okay. Then a review of the minutes. I'm not sure they were complete. I think Jane. I don't think Jane completed them. She had a few questions. I never got back. Okay. All right. Yeah. Okay. And I think that's the same with the previous months minutes also.  She did send us a draft, but she hadn't noted that I sent her some changes and so she was going to go back into them. And then this month we weren't sure. She didn't have a lot of the things that we talked about. So I put them in and then I said, maybe for the bylaws and then I said, maybe we don't need to write everything down because Ben was going to send us an updated copy. Maybe we could just say we worked on him. So that's what she asked me. And so both of those sets of minutes are waiting. Okay. Yeah. I think for the bylaw, maybe I'll just add. Like a little bit of a summary, but yeah, I think it's just the document itself becomes. The record. So is it okay to summarize when we go to the bylaw? You know, discussion and edits to bylaw. As far as the minutes are concerned. I'm used to doing them as being pretty summarizing and not so specific. But right.  It doesn't have to then. Go into the number of the section so that if we ever want to go back and figure out which meeting we talked about this section, you know, we could. That would be nice. Yeah. All right then. So we'll move to discussion of CPA proposals. Okay. I was just going to share the CPA proposal form. It's similar to last year. I guess what. What's different this year is that they're due in mid-October as opposed to. Mid-December. We'll do October 12th. And. So, you know, the commission. Could submit a proposal. You know, we already have one historic preservation proposal. Submitted by the Jones library. I know there's some interest in submitting one for the North Amherst library. Ben and I talked to. Salem place, you know, they have it from our conky house. And, you know, the fence was removed. And then the building. Gosh, I went by there the other day just to look. The building is. Could use some work. I know the historical society. So there's probably a lot of outside, a few outside organizations that I'll submit proposals. We could review. At a previous, or at a. At an upcoming meeting. And then there's some discussion, but whether or not the commission would want to submit it a proposal. And. You know, what we need to do is. You know, we need to have an overview, a description of funding. Perhaps a budget, a timeline. The typical questions, the urgency. What's the resource that's being. Threatened and why do we need CPA investment? Yeah. So staff had thought that West cemetery, you know, or the town cemeteries in general. And then we had. We had. The general staff of the fence at West cemetery. We staff had done an estimate last year about. Finalizing the. The full rod iron fence. There's a few sections that are still chain link fence. Maybe doing a few other things in West cemetery. And so. On the agenda we had. Maybe just had, we had West cemetery as a possible idea. Oh, and then town buildings. And so. Yeah. that he emailed me some building projects. So I think it's just really kind of up to the commission of what we think, you know, our projects to put forward. I will say that there is a backlog of historic preservation projects. Most are with outside organization. So the commission, I think, has the writer's walk. There is now $100,000 for West Cemetery headstones. And then $25,000 for updating the preservation plan, which I guess I didn't realize actually made it through. So I think those are with the commission. And, you know, do we want to put more, would we recommend more money to West Cemetery or the cemeteries or, you know, for instance, town buildings, I know the steps to town hall, the town was thinking about, you know, the big granite steps facing Boatwood Avenue, thinking about replacing or not replacing, but actually taking them down and then rebuilding them. So they're, yeah, I think that's what it needs to take to get them to be level again and set right. So right now they've kind of heaved and fallen over time. You know, there's projects like that. So I don't. Yeah, can you read in the list? Sorry. Could you read us the list of? You can share it. I could share my screen. I think I just have to hijack it from me. Hijack it. Yeah. I don't need to stop share. Do I? Okay. Yeah. So this is Jeremiah LaPlante is the facilities manager for the town. He, I had asked him about possible projects that could qualify under historic preservation. You know, some of these things are just general maintenance, I would think, but you know, the things that stood out to me were the steps for town hall, the windows on the ground level are deteriorating. Munson library in South Amherst. Right now it's like a part of it's a vinyl-sided building which I think Jeremiah was saying that the building itself is from like the early 1900s and wasn't, you know, the vinyl siding in the new addition. It's less to maintain, obviously, but it's not the original. And then some things at the North Amherst school. What's the North Amherst school? It's the brick building where the survival center and Head Start used to be located. So if you're looking at the libraries on your left, it's... Oh, Head Start is still there. Isn't it at the brick one? Yeah, it's where Head Start is. For the survival center it used to be, right? It used to be. I guess Head Start's still there. I thought it was there. Okay. Yeah, I go there with a little kid. Okay. Many of these things are maintenance. Why has it come under CPAC instead of town? By Jane. Well, the question would be, you know, could these be CPA eligible? And so I think the thought would be to have, you know, if it could be both a capital project and CPA, could it be both or draw from both? I mean, I agree some of these are maintenance. I mean, I will say that the slate roofs are really interesting. I guess I hadn't really noticed that all three of them is like, could we bundle roof work? I mean, I will say that there's not many roofers who are doing that anymore. And it's kind of a specialty. Windows are quite expensive. I think the windows are maintenance. I think slate roofs are interesting. I'd like to know if they're, I'm sure for Town Hall, that's the original roof. And it'd be nice to know if it's the same for Munson and North Amherst School. But that's a historic aspect of the architecture of those buildings. So I see that is more qualifying than some of the other suggestions. I agree. So Town Hall slate roof is original. So yeah, that's preservation. I'd like to know if the Munson Library slate roof was always a slate roof and whether the North Amherst School slate roof was always a slate roof. I think the North Amherst School is, we had used block grant money to restore some of the building a number of years ago. I think it's a slate roof and I think it's a multicolored roof with a pattern. So if it's not original, it's quite old, the roof there. Is Jeremiah thinking on the Munson siding to replace the vinyl siding with wood or just replace it with vinyl? Because if we're going back to, closer to the original, that could qualify. Yeah, he was thinking of going back to the original. That would be nice, yeah. The vinyl siding, I mean, it's also on the back of the building. It's not as old as it is. It's a, I think it is front facing. Front too, but I think it's a. Okay, gotcha. That building just needs a lot of work. I mean, I know the HVAC system probably isn't included, but between that and the attic insulation, the people who work in there just suffer in the summer. So it's the question about this sort of what we've already got on the docket for now, like the headstones and the righteous walk and existing stuff that's in the works. And are we trying to get that completed before we take on anything else? I'm just trying to get a feel of what we're being asked to do here. You know, I think that's a really good question, Hedy. So that's one that the CPA committee is gonna ask. So one, you know, do we have enough on the plate already? And are we, you know, can we justify, we ask for more? And if we do think we can, what are the projects we would ask for? So, you know. Is there some reason the headstones aren't, haven't been done for two years? Again, what was that? I think it was just the first year, right? Yes, yeah. Yeah, I think it was just, you know, due to staffing issues and, you know, staff was, we were short staff for a bit. So I think the commission's actually returned some money in the last few years. And I don't, I think the commission's in a pretty good position. If we want to request more CPA funds, I do think there's gonna be some, we're gonna have to explain some of the outstanding balances. And I was gonna say the CPA committee really now is trying to have projects that can move forward within a year and be completed within three. So, you know, we, the commission used to, I mean, I think a lot of people did, but the commission was really good at bankrolling CPA money for projects that didn't get done, unfortunately. But, you know, so I think your points are a really good one. You know, and so between the buildings, the cemeteries, other products at West Cemetery, you know, I think staff had thought about headstones, landscape treatment and fencing. I thought there was one other, maybe signs if we needed money for signs. So, you know, do we bundle West Cemetery or cemeteries together, for instance, would we bundle buildings, slate roofs on town buildings together?  I will say that just, I'll mention it, it's not, I don't think it's ready, but you know, there's discussion about what's happening with the North Common because CPA put in quite a bit of money to the North Common project. And so if the CPA committee asking what's happening with old projects, there's gosh, probably half a million or more of CPA money that's been put to the North Common. And so staff recently has been discussing that, you know, would that come back to CPA?  There was a part on that plan. I know, and so the plan was previewed just preliminarily by the council and it hasn't really gone back to them, the town council for a full review. And I think that's going to happen soon. So, but, you know, that's announced, that's a big project that quite a lot of work went into and then it was quite expensive. And with the change in government, it just kind of lost momentum. I think for the historical commission projects. So we've got at least three different projects right now. And, you know, I, we could get ourselves back into the same situation where we have too many projects to be able to execute. So I would be more in favor of making progress on what we've got. We could expand something with a like project that uses same contractors. In other words, I mean, for example, you know, expand our cemetery work. But, you know, if I'm concerned that if we take on too many projects, we just be back where we started and have to turn money back. It's said that some of these, we wouldn't have anything to do with because we'd be handing the money over to the town to- I'm talking about, no, I'm just really talking about historical commission projects, not town buildings. Oh, so if the town buildings were the proposed, it wouldn't be the commission proposing, it'd be the town. Right. And we'd just be seeing those come through. Right. Okay, I thought that's why I didn't understand. I thought it was maintenance laws. I kept thinking, why are we doing this instead of the town? That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I guess we hadn't thought about who would be their proposing entity. You know, would the commission want to say, okay, we're the ones making the proposal, say for the slate roofs, or would you want the town to do that as its own, you know, as its own proposal? And then the commission would support it. Yeah. Or review it with all the other ones. Like I said, you know, the library, they'll be, you know, there could be a half a dozen CPA proposals for the commission to review in two months and make recommendations to the CPA committee. So maybe the discussion tonight, then, is if we think the commission, you know, wants the town to apply for slate roofs, then maybe I would recommend a vote by the commission saying, well, either we'd want, the commission would want to take the lead on it, or it's something that you'd recommend that the facilities manager would take the lead on it. I'm gonna stop my share, but I can check in with Jeremiah about this slate roofs for Munson and North Amherst and just get a sense of it. It'd be interesting to know whether they're original or how old they are, but as I look on this list, that's the one thing in each area that seems to be something we should support in front request. Yeah. Because that's the historic nature of the construction of those buildings. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And to replace them with asbestos or some other solution in the future would destroy the original look. I also think that it is better for some other department of the town to be the applicant and ask for our support because if we became the applicant, then different areas of the town may just begin to see the historical commission and the preservation portion of CPAC money as being a pass-through. And that would be... Yeah. I mean, it would seem like the polls come from the historical commission should be more directly related to our work. Yeah. We want to spread the sense of historical ownership as wide as possible. We don't just want to hold that moniker, I think. And slate roofs are pretty dear to my heart. So I love Nate's idea of bundling the slate roofs on the library and the town hall. But I agree with Jane that perhaps the town should apply for it. Yeah. And we should support it. Yeah. Of this whole list, slate roofs are dear to my heart. Houses with slate roofs and they're hard to maintain and they're hard to repair. And expensive. And expensive. But once they're gone, the history of that is gone. And so, yeah, however we have to do the slate roofs on all three facilities, I think, you know, Nate and Ben could figure out how to put that forward. And Ben, if you can find out the age of those slate roofs whether they're original, whether they were original and been repaired and maintained over time, that's part of the argument for the CPA funds. Right, I think, you know, CPA doesn't fund repair. So we have to change that to, you know, restore or preserve.  Is there time in one month to find a slate roofer, get a estimate on all three buildings, put it together with a proposal and get it in? Or are we talking something too big for this short year? That would be up to, I think that would be up to Jeremiah. Yeah, yeah, I can run that by then. Yeah. There are the occasion to get an estimate for repair of a slate roof about two years ago and the estimate was $60,000 for just an ordinary sized house. Wow. So it's gonna, it's gonna probably be expensive. It will be expensive, but I know there was a house, a private house on Shays Street that recently had a slate roof restored. So there are people out there doing it. It's just a question of knowing who they are and whether they'd be responsive in this timeframe. Right. Yeah, I think New England's slate company or roof company, they worked on the first congregational church. I think it was New England's slate, but yeah. It's a good question. I mean, maybe if we get this to Jeremiah this week, he can get on it. I guess the question would be then, how does the commission feel about West Cemetery? Would we want to put forward a, I can get back to a share. If there are any other products for West Cemetery, whether it be, what am I sharing? What are people looking at? I guess like my screen is- You're looking at the agenda.  Didn't indicate that to me. Sorry. Would we want to put forward any other products in West Cemetery, you know, try to bundle fixing the fence or anything else? I would suggest we really get on the case of getting the last two allocations for the Timstones done this year. That's the second and third year. So that's the end of the headstones there. And then maybe once that's done, we'd have more ground to stand on. That wasn't meant to be a pun. To request continued repairs of that cemetery and to go to some of the others and do the headstones like in the South Cemetery something. But if we don't, if we have money outstanding right now for headstone repair, and we start asking for more, I think it's going to weaken our case. I agree with Dan. Were you concerned that 100 or whatever we have allotted now wasn't enough to do what we wanted to do? I think 100,000 can do quite a bit. I think what we were, the question was, no, just the idea for the 100,000 of the commission knows we were going to get a bit out this fall to have work start. We almost can't do it this year. I thought this was a continuation of the bid we had for three years at 50,000 a year. But we can't, I think Brandon or someone, I think it was Brandon's only the assumption that we could just keep rolling a contract over to the same contractor and we can't do that.  So we couldn't just, so I think Brandon actually thought with the second 50, he had the conservators, he thought that he had, I think he was originally having them to start it. And then by the time that summer came around we said then it was, we had to tell them no because we can't just change order that every year. So. And now we're dependent on Anthony's schedule to get a bid. So it's gonna be a while. But I still think it can be ready for next spring. So I mean, again, I mean to your point, I think it is, we have some projects out there. How do you set it? So are we ready to ask for more? Do we have, for instance, DPW was interested in completing or managing the fence project at West Cemetery. So would, like the slate roof, would we ask or recommend that public works then apply for West Cemetery for the fence? Or do we just wait? Do we just wait on that because? Is the fence a preservation project? It is. So the original, according to the West Cemetery preservation plan there had been, I don't know if there had been, but we had there, it was like 80% of the fence was funded with CPA funds five, seven years ago. And we just know there wasn't enough funding to finish it. So what's left on the east and south sides are a chain link fence. Okay. Well, if DPW is gonna do the work, then that would be okay. I wouldn't wanna go beyond that though. I mean. It wouldn't do the work. I think they'd contacted a few fence contractors last fall to get quotes.  Again, if they propose it, we could support it and that'd be great. Right? So in terms of the process of what we're doing here is that we're sort of getting a list from the town of things that might have to start preservation allowability and then suggesting to them that yes, this would be allowable and it would be good to submit a proposal, right? And then, I mean, we would make a recommendation for the specific proposal after we reviewed it. Right. So I think, you know, sometimes the commission may take it on themselves and say, well, we, you know, the commission would be the sponsor of this proposal and work on it. But it sounds that that's not, you know, that's not being recommended this year. So. Okay. You know. Can we strongly recommend to the town and DPW to follow up with the slate roof and the plate roofs and the fence? That, yeah, that could, That could be one of the minutes or something. Right. So we were going to take a vote on what our recommendations were. Right. And then before I forget, I just wanted to say that you know, the commission needs to vote to for Robin to stay or remain or be the CPA representative. So it's something we should do at this meeting as well. Just, you know, everyone supports her in that role, but we do have to have a vote. And thank you, Robin, for volunteering. No problem. So why don't we do that first? Let's, yeah, let's do the vote for Robin first. Okay. I nominate Robin to be our CPA or CPAC rep. And I second. So because we're all, we're, I can't see hands on the screen right now. So I'll just go down the roll call. Pat off. Yes. Let's see. Jen Marquardt. Yes. Hattie Startup. Yes. Robin Fordham. Yes. Jane Laws. That's a gross vote. You can vote. Voting? Good vote. Yeah. You can vote. Good vote. No, I'm voting yes. If you weren't voting yes, I'd say you couldn't vote. Okay. Well, we have a unanimous vote of the, wait, if I missed anyone. Okay. We have a unanimous vote of our esteemed question. Thank you, Robin. Congratulations. Thank you very much. I shall serve with honor. All right. Do you all feel that we've discussed the CPA proposal sufficiently or is there, would you like to continue that discussion? I just wanted to follow up with Nate about the, what about like the issues of the landscape in West Cemetery in terms of the woody vegetation and kind of overgrown areas? I remember we were talking about that. Yeah. I mean, there's been some, staff, this summer there was a number of complaints about the condition of West Cemetery. The meadow hasn't, didn't quite, meadow-fy and the maintenance over time has, allowed woody shrubs to grow up. So, I think for a while actually, the meadow was looking pretty good, but because of the way the maintenance of it, especially near headstones, with the minimal mulling trees and shrubs started growing. And so it's to a point now where those things actually have to be probably, hand removed by hand and cut by hand, just so stones won't be damaged. Is that the area we were gonna bring the sheep? It was, there is. So, William. We still have to cut down the woody stuff before we can bring sheep. And my sheep person, I haven't spoken to in a while because we weren't all getting together in person, et cetera, et cetera. But he wanted to take a look at it to see if whatever was growing there was compatible with sheep. So, I think, yeah. So, I think if it's not a CPA proposal, I thought at least maybe for a future agenda item would be discussing how to address that area of West Cemetery. Is it a recommendation? Is it, I don't know, a volunteer day? Is it some way to try to get, clean up that older section because it is becoming overgrown? I think the meadow and the plants, that's easily mowed and rectified. I think there was never interpretive signs put up describing why that process was started and has been ongoing. So, there had been actually, a number of years ago, I would put up signs and then people would take them down like every two weeks. They were temporary. I mean, they were nice or laminated. They were on a post. But I will say that they would be taken all the time. And so, my thought is, unless it's a permanent sign, I mean, these things were mounted on a wood base and staked in the ground and they would just be totally removed. And so, it was really difficult to keep going back there and putting up temporary signs, but. Could we say to CPA, rather than saying, I mean to DPW, rather than saying DPW put together, we support that you put together a proposal for a fence. What if we were to say DPW put together a proposal for whatever you think you can accomplish that's most needed right now in West Cemetery? And if they want to propose some money to do the landscaping or the fence or signs or whatever, it can come out of DPW and we'll support it. And then each year we can do more. They can do more and we'll support more. Would that work? They might not propose something that is really kind of preservation oriented. It might just be kind of scout the place. That's an exaggeration, but I see your point. Yeah, I mean, an alternative could be that, that we take back the fence and we propose the package. Or I mean, maybe what I mean, the commission could say, we could call Taylor Davis or a landscape company and just ask them for an estimate on what it would take to remove the woody shrubs. And if it's 7,000 or 25,000, that becomes a proposal this year. And it's just something that I think should be done when we had and the conservators come out a few years ago and they really thought at some point, they thought that a lot of the woody shrubs near the headstones really need to be done by hand and hand tools. So it can't be going in there with machinery. It really has to be a kind of a labor intensive process. Not that it's a difficult process, it just... Well, and it's of the essence because we can't start the sheep process until that's done. It's kind of stacked up and these things only grow worse. And it can also aid in the restoration of headstones. I mean, maybe the landscape component is something that the Historical Commission would propose this year. It might not be a big ask and it'd be something... I think it's necessary to preserve the headstones and necessary if we're gonna try to get back to naturally taking care of that meadow. Yeah. And if we emphasize the headstones, maybe they'll see that this kind of goes along with getting the other two items that were already allocated finished. Right, right. It sort of all goes together, doesn't it, really? And I think the idea of working to get the chain link fence removed and the meadow trimmed and the woody shrubs removed, it's all of one piece really in terms of how we think about that space in terms of the asset for the town. Jane, I'm curious, is Emily's grave and the Dickinson plot something that you all have responsibility for? No. But I remember when I was first in Amherst going on my Emily Dickinson tour and they said at the end, you should go visit her grave and I had no idea how close it was because I'd never been to Amherst before and I didn't have a phone with a map app on it. But it's just one of those things that's so cool that it's just so connected and so close. I would love us to repackage essentially the West Cemetery as a sort of holistic preservation package, whether it's fencing or removal of woody shrubs or introducing sheep. I mean, these are all things that we've been talking about for quite some time and seeing a lot of things resolved but other things are sort of still in play. It would be great to see things sort of tidied for once if it were a better word. Without fretting on anybody's toes. No, but the Emily Dickinson grave is certainly a destination for people. Yes, it is. I move when I've been there to see it, that people leave things on the grave. And so that's an indication that it is a destination. I agree with you, to make the cemetery more accessible and more inviting is part of the preservation of the history of Amherst with those graves there and many other. I mean, there are historic graves there, not just the Dickinson family. And it's a highlight of Amherst. So I think I'm hearing that there's some interest in creating this package that could take care of several sort of isolated pieces of what needs to be done in West Cemetery and we could propose that as a package. Fence, woody shrubs. And was there a third thing? Someone mentioned, we mentioned talk about signs I'm not sure if we're ready for that. We're probably not. Maybe we could write a proposal for the woody shrubs which has a little preamble that says, as part of a multi-part preservation package for the cemetery, we'd like to ask for a number of things. We'll start this year with the woody shrubs and we'll come back next year for the fence and sort of like we did with the three year headstones and maybe we might even come back to them for sheep money.  Right, but if we could lay out the progression. Yeah, unless I'm asking for money for this year, would the fence be too much to ask for it together with the removal of the woody shrubs, do you think? I think the fence- I think it would strengthen our, I think it would be strengthened. Yeah, I think the fence is, the estimate last year I think was between 20 and 30,000. So that was done last fall. So I mean, I'm not sure prices have gone up too much, but at most it'd be 30,000 I'd say. So the woody shrubs and to completely enclose the cemetery seem like, to enhance it and enclose it, would seem like a package to me. And then to talk about what's already on board of the restoration of the headstones, it's all connected. And then maintaining the metal in the future, perhaps with sheep, but the woody things, and they're gonna need to be removed by the roots, not just cut down. Well, you can paint that stuff on them that kills the root. Well, destroy them one way or the other, because otherwise it's gonna be an ever-present problem. Right, no, yeah, I'd try to be clear with the contractor that it's not just cutting its removal, whether it's right by herbicide or by physical removal. Yeah, I think the commission could put this forward and public works would help manage the fence piece. I mean, I think they were interested in that. So whether or not it's the commission's proposal, I think some of it would also then be managed by staff from public works. And who has landscaping type stuff? That's not DPW. They do, it'd be probably the same division of public works, but I'm not sure that if they have the time or if they, maybe if they had the direction, they would do that, but I think at this point, it's a pretty. No, I need to oversee it if we get somebody else to do it. Oh, right, no, I think it would probably be the division of trees and grounds headed by Alan Snow. Okay, I was thinking Snow, yeah. Okay. Well, should we? Are we ready to come to like a vote on this? To have a motion about where we've ended up? Or do we have a slide? Why don't we summarize which projects we have on board? We're talking about the West Cemetery and the phase that we would request would be the finishing the fence and removing the woody growth in the meadow area. Yeah. We're getting rid of it with the idea of how we could maintain it in the future. And, but part of that whole first part is to preserve the headstones that are there and make the cemetery more inviting. Yeah, we could say that the purpose of this proposal is to facilitate the ongoing headstone restoration. And to upgrade the fence and remove the woody growth in the meadow in order to... Preserve the headstones. Yeah, well. And the meadow. So that, yeah. And to prepare for further maintenance and years to come. So. Can I ask the question? Is the meadow itself the preservation aspect? Well, it seems to be because it was deeded that way. Is that right? I'm just asking from like... Jane, from a historic preservation perspective, removing the trees is an attempt to preserve the meadow, not the headstones, right? Well, they're encroaching on the headstones. Is both. I think it's both. Yeah, I would say both. Yeah, some of the trees are growing up right along the headstones. So, I mean, they're gonna eventually topple down. So, okay, thank you for the summary. That's really helpful. And I think the context of the motion is what the historical commission wishes to propose for CPA funding in this round. Correct. Okay. That can be abandoning the plate roof thing. No, no, no, no, no. This is one, this is just one. One bit. Taking them one at a time, Hedy. Okay, sorry. We decided that the site roof should come from the town. This will come from us. Correct. But this is it. This is the only thing we really wanted to propose. I believe that's correct. Oh, we don't want to propose anything around this. We don't want to recommend. All right, we'll talk about slate roofs in a second. Let's just keep going on the west cemetery. So, we needed a wording for this proposal. I think, I have the general sense of it. I think it would be staff, Ben and I would reach out to DPW and we would work on our proposal. Could be submitted or reviewed by the commission again before, if we try to meet before the 12th. So it's, I feel like I have the two elements we'd be working on as part of the proposal. Yeah, I think the motion can be pretty simple. That something like the historical commission authorizes staff liaisons to work to develop a proposal to preserve, to take, to develop a proposal to preserve the meadow and the headstones.  No, because by removing the woody thing is preserving the meadow. I so move what Jane said. Right, but we need to get the fence in there. Can I go for my notes here? How about the historical commission moves to authorize staff liaisons to develop a proposal for the preservation of the west cemetery fence and removal of woody growth in the meadow. To preserve, in effort to preserve the existing headstones. That sounds like Robin has made a motion. Hold on a second. Okay. I thought I was just gonna say the same thing. Okay, hold on a second. So I move that the historical commission authorize staff liaisons to develop a proposal to preserve the west cemetery fence and headstones through removal of woody growth in the meadow. And, sorry, I think we have to get replacement of the chain link fence in there somewhere. Okay, all right. So we're not preserving the fence. We're replacing the fence. Okay. To restore the fence. Right. By removing the chain link fence to restoration of the continuation of the historic fence. Oh boy. I mean, it was fine. I wonder, I mean, I think it was just. It doesn't have to be perfect because Nate knows what we're talking about. Right, I know. That's what I was trying to get this. Authorized staff liaisons to develop a proposal for preservation of the fence and meadow and headstones in west cemetery. I mean, the meadow maintenance and meadow maintenance period and he'll work it out from there. Sure. That sounds good, Robin. I think you captured it. And I would second that. I'd razzle and dazzle you. I might throw something in there. Maybe like, you know, where's Elmo? Where's Emily in West Cemetery? That could be the title of the proposal. I'm sorry to do this, but I'm going to bring up a very small point that it could be possible that CPA committee members would notice. And that is if we use the word maintenance, then we're talking about maintenance and not restoration. Right, so it's restoration of the meadow. No, it's not restoration. This is just for, I mean, how the proposal with the language of the proposal uses is one thing, but we're just asking Nate to develop the proposal. So, so far I've got the authorized staff liaisons to develop proposal for the preservation of headstones, fence and meadow of West Cemetery. Okay, I suppose you can get it, right? Okay. I hereby move. Is there a second? Second. Who was that? Well, Pat. Yeah, Pat, okay. Okay. And if I'm imagining there's no further discussion, but if you wish to discuss further, please let me know. And now we'll move to a vote. Roll call. Think, sorry. You have to do a roll call? Yes, I think I do, because I can't see everybody. Yeah. Robin Fordham. Yes. Jan Marquardt. Yes. Pat Aup. Yes. Heddy Startup. Yes. And Jane Wald. Yes. Thank you. Okay. So how will we deal with the slate roofs? Because I don't want us to lose that idea. Is that a recommendation to, would the slate roofs be a recommendation to the town to submit a proposal as opposed to the historical commission submitting? Right, with the support of the historical commission. So I'm going to ask Nate and Ben, do you think we need a vote on that or is it a recommendation just as a part of our meeting? Just being a recommendation as part of the meeting. Yeah, like how does the CPA proposal process work? Like would, would there be a letter? The way it works is we'd, you know, let Jeremiah know that the commission recommends, you know, the slate roofs bundling them and then he would develop a proposal and submit it. And then, you know, all the historic preservation proposals will then be brought to the commission for their review and recommendations to the CPA committee. So, you know, this historical commission really, you know, would be submitting just the one we discussed for West Cemetery and it would be the town, you know, maybe the facilities department submitting one for the slate roof. You know, just as like the Jones library submits one for the Jones library. So, and then they all get reviewed by the commission. And does it hold any weight if we do a formal support for that proposal? Formal support comes after they put the proposal in. So the proposal will come before us and then we will put our formal recommendation behind it, which I will take to the CPA. Okay, all right. Okay. So I think we have a consensus on that recommendation going forward. So I believe we can now go to the demolition application for 535 South Pleasant. Doer and I think I don't know if I let the commission know but this, the structure was already taken down. Yeah. Yeah.  It's an old, you know, it is an older structure. It was an older structure.  And so, you know, I had asked the owners, I'm not sure exactly what happened. I thought they're pretty aware of the need to complete a demolition application. And it may have been that just the, I'm not sure maybe the contractor, maybe they had a timeline and they didn't deviate from it. I'm not sure what happened, but. So, you know, from the commission's perspective, you know, there could be some corrective action. There could be a letter to the owner, to the building inspector, commissioner. I'm, you know, I just, I wanted it, you know, the commission, if we want to discuss that all to be, have it be on the agenda. Seems to me, if we have any teeth, we have to do something for people who do this or it's just going to be done all the time. You know, I mean, the easiest thing to do is put in an application and go ahead and do it.  There should be a fine or something. Is there, is there a consequence, Nate, to someone doing this, illegally established? There isn't a bylaw, you know, there's a fine. There's, you know, the ability to fine until it's rebuilt to just to issue a fine. So for instance, if the commission were to take an action tonight, I'd say it was taken down three weeks ago, you know, I don't know, I have to talk to the building commissioner maybe then that the three, the three weeks is the finable period, right? So there's three weeks where the building commissioner could assess a fine, which is there's a certain amount per day. So, you know, it could be a... It's a hundred per day, isn't it? Yeah, I forget what the bylaw says. I mean, then it's also the building commissioner if he wants to modify it. But say it is a hundred a day and it's 30 days then, or, you know, 20 days and that's, you know, $2,000 maybe the building commissioner would say, well, that's maybe you would issue a fine for half of that as a, you know, I don't know how that would work out, but it's just something, yeah, it, you know, especially because the applicant or the homeowner had reached out and we had discussed this and then this happened, you know, I think sometimes homeowners may not even know that they need to submit a demolition application. They might take down a building. This one just seemed strange because they'd reached out to the town and then it still came down even though there was discussions about needing to submit an application. I'm wondering if we, I mean, I lean toward some kind of fine, but I'm wondering if we should talk about its historic significance as we would for any structure before moving to a fine. I agree with that, Jane, because I'm not real clear on the age of it or its function historically. It's, it's style significantly, all of those things that we would look at. Yeah, but the point here is not whether or not we would have allowed demolition. The point is, is they completely hijacked the process and went ahead. And so of course they spend a half hour of our time deciding whether or not it was historically significant when it's gone now. I think we should just say, it doesn't matter what condition the building was. You skipped our process, therefore you have to pay a fine. And it's illegal. That when PVPC went around and looked at possible outbuildings, I was trying to find it. They hadn't taken a photograph of this one as one that was visible from the road. And I don't know if it was visible from the road and, you know, they identified over like 120, but this was one of the 120 that they thought could be a good example of, you know, just a kind of vernacular outbuilding in Amherst. So they didn't do much more than that. I thought at one point they had sent a spreadsheet with possible dates, but I don't think they did. Okay. But the fact that they identified it. They identified it, yes. Yeah, it doesn't matter, it's that they identified it. Yeah, and we can use that when we tell the building commissioner, these people should be fined. Is that enough, Nate? Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, I agree. At this point, you know, it didn't seem like the owners did much research at all. So try to figure out the age of the structure. They said, oh, it's 49 or 50 years old. And I said, well, it looks a lot older. You know, is it right? Yeah, I mean, I think it's something that's happened after talking to the building commissioner with in terms of how the enforcement steps. So is it left to us to propose that there'd be an enforcement response to this? What do we need to do? Because I agree with Jan, if people feel there's no consequence, they're just gonna start knocking things down without it going to review. Yeah, I mean, maybe just the commission, right, I think Pat, you said it, you know, would recommend enforcement action and then that's something staff would look into with the building commissioner. And maybe once we have the new bylaws passed and everything, we should do a newspaper article saying, here's our new bylaws. And by the way, we do impose a fine if you don't do this just so that it's publicly announced in the paper and everybody is forewarned, you know? Yeah, that's a good idea. But yeah, I, you know, I don't remember a case of a fine being imposed. So if this is, I mean, I'd like to hear from Robin and Heddy their opinions also. And then I'd be ready to go right ahead. Not to offer an opinion, but. I think a fine seems appropriate. I'm not quite sure what the process, I mean, it would be, this will be a good experience to kind of see what the process is for actually imposing on. Like how do you decide, you know, what is significant enough to send the message? I mean, and then the question, it's a good question that Jim points out is how does finding this particular property let other people know that they'll get fined too? I mean, there's, you've got both aspects to it, right? So. We'll get around, I'm sure, if these people are happy. It is Amherst, after all. Yeah, we'll hear about it. So the first part is for the actual transgression and the second part is for the effect of deterrence, right? Right. So that, you know, if the commissioner recommends it to the building commissioner, then it's, you know, the building commissioner, you know, with discussion with staff determines the best action. Yeah, that would be my preference. Yeah. And then maybe instructs the clerks at the front desk when they hand these things out to say, you know, just last week, somebody didn't wait and they were fine. We can have a little picture of the building and the storybook right at the window. Of course, nobody goes to windows anymore. Nevermind. Well, maybe, maybe on the applications, there needs to be a statement to the effect that demolition before approval by the history of the mission is subject to a fine. It's true. If that isn't clear anywhere, maybe on the demolition application, there needs to be just a simple statement like that. They aren't looking at the bylaws. We'll just put it right on the application. Right. Right. It's not clear on the, by the application form. Yeah. So I think it's a simple statement that demolition prior to approval and application. I mean, I think, you know, people would figure that out. Yeah. I'm going to invite Heady to say anything that she'd like to about this. I'm looking at the, I'm looking at the permits and I'm looking at the photographs. And I just, I do think it's, it's sort of like whatever, if we have a ruling, we should have everybody follow it. And we don't, we don't want this kind of thing to set a precedent for further bad behavior, if you like. And I'm curious about this building. I mean, now it's gone, you know, and I'm also a little bit, I see some of these photographs and I think they've been taken in a way to, you know, justify that there was no contest about whether this building should come down or not because it was in a poor state of repair. I'm looking at those nice hinges, looking at the sort of big house, little house aspect to it a little bit. You know, I just, I just think this was sort of a pity that this happened really. Especially if it was one of these buildings that was within the remit of that survey generally earlier on that I wasn't privy to, but I just think that this is, we don't want this to keep happening. Yeah, so well, you know, it was interesting that the application described the building and then based on the photographs there and just the aerial, you know, there's kind of two parts to it. And so I just emailed Ben asking him to drive by to verify tomorrow because looking through the information, it's still unclear to me that he said at one point they're gonna tear down just this little piece and maybe leave the bigger piece. And I'm still not clear, but I think, right, it's unfortunate, it looks like they never really wanted to answer the question honestly.  They're not even in focus. Right, I know. They're not the whole thing either. It looks like they only took the bad parts and the rest of it might've looked really fine, you know. Right, right, I mean, this picture is just... I think this is a little bit, you know, I'm really stretching it here, but I think it's a little bit of a cynical approach to, yes, it's their property, but, you know, we can do what we want kind of a thing. I'm looking on Street View and when Bruce leaves on the trees, I can't see it. Yeah. I can see a little bit underneath one tree, but it's very hard to see. Yeah, I could. I couldn't see much. I probably downloaded the images from Shannon. Let me just, if I can get, pull those up. That would be great. Yeah, searching my computer. I don't know why. Ben, you're going to do a drive-by tomorrow to see if the whole structure was demolished? Yep, yeah, I'll go. I'll go check it out. It looks like, you know, maybe see it from the street or sidewalk, but I don't know. I'll see what I can do. Can we see this? Can we see the new PDF here? Yeah. Yeah, sorry, just, sorry, I'm going to zoom down. It's in alphabetical order, so. Where am I going? I don't know, I look at these photographs, I'm like, wow, look at all these barns and amhersts. Yeah. Yeah, they're wonderful. Where are you guys?  Oh yeah, this is, I know this gives people headaches and it's not the- It's okay. Sorry, where is it? I know it's coming up. I have 35. So here it is, so here's one image of it. It was cute. Oh boy. Here's actually another image of it, which makes it look almost like a chicken coop. Because the ground's sloped and that's the back? Yes, yeah. Is the picture below it of the same building? No. The roof doesn't look to be symmetric, so it's just, you know. That's the right, and so here's the other image of it. What's the one below, though? What's the third one that Jane was asking about, the next one? Oh, sorry, that's a different address. Okay, it is. Yeah, that's a different address. Yeah, definitely, okay. It's a sweet little building. It's a big building, actually. Yeah. It is a big building, so it'd be interesting to know if they demolished the whole thing. So it's L-shaped and they might have only taken the little piece of the L. Right, look at this, right, this song, right. So here's the, this L is what we're seeing. Sorry for the scrolling in this photo. Sorry, this is not right here. I think it's a lean to. To the right. So it'd be important to know if the whole structure was removed or just that part. But also, I think that our statement, you know, should be to the fact that it was identifying. And by the state as an outbuilding to be concerned, you know, of our concern. And if the rest of it hasn't been taken down, halt and deceased, cease and desist. Right, right. During that process of inventorying the outbuildings, didn't Shannon or PVC, the Planning Commission, didn't they contact each owner? I'm not sure if they contacted all of them or they contacted some of them. But yeah, right, so I mean. So the owner could know it's on the inventory or know that there was potential for it to be listed. You know, that building was at least, you know, had some architectural features and, you know, that it could have been inventoried individually. So, you know, the house is older. And so sometimes what happens, happened is any secondary structures when we had done the inventory forms, we wouldn't do for some reason, any ancillary structures weren't recorded. So we were trying to then capture them again or capture them on the property. So. So if we send a statement to the effect that this was demolished, all are in part and a cease and desist for whatever remains and a fine that any further work needs to come before the historic commission, that seems reasonable. Yeah, and if we do go over there tomorrow, Ben, they're in the process of knocking it down, put your body between the workmen in the building. Yeah, I'll see what I can do. I'll strap myself to the back of the wall. We value your life more, Ben. It's surprisingly strong. You can create some chains, you'll be okay. Take your Superman pajamas, wear them under your clothes. Okay, so this to me seems like something that needs a vote. Okay. I move that we tell the building commissioner about the situation with 535 South Pleasant that a demolition request application came in and before we could meet about it, all are part of the building was removed. We would like to ask the building commissioner to determine whether any of it is left and if so, keep them from destroying anymore and impose a fine for their violation of the process. How's that? Sounds good. So, ask the building commissioner to confirm condition to determine whether all or part was removed. Gosh, can't she type as fast as I talk, Robin? I zoomed so much. Determine whether all or part removed. If any part remains, make sure they don't go any further until we have a chance to meet about it. So make sure no further demolition until review. And then the third thing was impose a fine for their violation of the process. The violation of the process. Okay. According to the bylaw, the current bylaw. So, Jan moves that the house art commission and for the building commissioner in the situation with 535 South Pleasant Street that a demolition application was received was demolition occurred before the historical commission could meet. Ask the building commissioner to determine what. Before the number one, it should be the outbuilding at that address. Well, that's on the application. Yeah. Anyway. And before the Amherst-Sverker commission can meet to make a determination. Okay. Well, wasn't it before the demolition application was forwarded to the historical commission? Or is that not? Yes, because he told us when he forwarded it that it already happened. Okay. I think that's, I think if we could make that slight change, it's not just our meeting schedule, it's more the violation of the process. Okay. I'm sorry. So let's start for the top here. Historical commission to inform the building commissioner of the situation with 535 South Pleasant Street, demolition application received. Regarding outbuilding. Pat wants to put that in. Received for outbuilding, received for outbuilding. Yeah. And demolition occurred before the historical commission could act on the request. No, before it was forwarded, the application was forwarded to the commission. Okay. Okay. Before the application was forwarded to the historical commission for review. Yeah. So the application really was kind of a sham. Okay. Don't record that. Nope. Request building commissioner determine whether all or part of the building has been demolished. It would be great if I typed more effective, more correctly function on the zoom. We could be typing this in for you what we're saying, but we're all right. Well, if any part remains, make sure no further demolition occurs until reviewed by historical commission and impose a fine for violation of process of current bylaw. According to current bylaw. Yeah. Great. Put that in their pipe and let them smoke it. So we have a second. I second. All in favor? Let's go through the roll call again. Pat. Yes. Robin. Yes. Jan. Yes. Almighty. Heady. Yes. And Jane. Yes. Thank you. So, two more tablets. I think that's a. Yes. Letter Jane. Well, Ben, Ben wrote the letter. Letter Ben. Thank you. Yeah. And. Glad we got that process moving. So we got the letter to the town manager last week. And then on Monday, we met, we met and discussed the Civil War tablets. Looks like there's, there is. Momentum and, you know, the town manager gave kind of preliminary approval to move ahead with moving the tablets to the bank center, the poll room. The only hiccup is there's, there's talks of having like a town child childcare services. And bank center is an option for that. And so Paul just needs to like confirm. And he will, by the end of this week, like exactly what rooms are needed for childcare and when that's happening. But he seemed confident that the poll room would be available in the bank center. So, with that, I've been reaching out along with Nate and Jeremiah to find some quotes about, you know, what it would actually take to move, move them. And so we're getting some information there. However, the other stuff of this process was like, we wanted to have the conservators like all lined up and ready to go to come inspect the tablets. When, you know, by the time they were moved, so I reached out to them and it sounds like, I don't know if you saw that email me, but I'm. Irving the from monument conservative collaborative who did the restoration in 2010 due to COVID isn't currently doing restoration work or indoor indoor restoration work or really any consulting right now. So I think we could just tell them it's a closed building. It's close to the public. And we would just, you know, we could just drag them in there. We could tell them that they're outside the bank center and then just trick them. I saw that, you know, but I think if we explain to them that the building's been closed to the public for months and. Great. I think the time manager, right. So. I miss that the question was that they. They said that the building that was closed. I mean, the building of the conservative conservator is not currently doing work, but you think that that can be resolved by having known in the building. He expressed, he made, he wasn't. Maybe comfortable doing work inside right now due to COVID. But suggesting that because the building is empty, it shouldn't be an issue. Yeah. We haven't, he doesn't know the meticulous of the building or the setting. I just understand what David was saying. Okay. I think, yeah, the town manager, you know, thought that, you know, there's other with staff and then, you know, Jeremiah, the new facilities manager and director, you know, whether, if the bank center didn't work, there was, you know, there's discussions about where else they could be temporarily opened, you know, for a number of months possibly to allow, you know, the commission to see them even, you know, we could coordinate a site visit to let Anika and her team to have different conservators. So the thought would be whether or not it's Monument Conservation Collaborative. You know, we, there's discussions about whether or not there could be another team of conservators or architects to come in, assess them, and then also develop, you know, guidelines for their display. So, you know, figure out, could they be displayed outside? Why or why not?  Is the marble too fragile? Have, you know, have them, the tablets be available for viewing for, you know, long enough so that we could get some of these answers, these questions answered. And so, you know, Paul seemed pretty open to that. And it's just a matter of, you know, where and then how. So there was some leftover CPA money that would fund the moving of the tablets and hiring of, you know, these consultants to come and assess them and help with any, anything else. So I think it's, there's existing funds that we can use. Yes, yeah. There's leftover money from when they were cleaned and that money was, had met, been, had, you know, was set aside to help find a display for them and it never happened. So we've been holding onto it for a while now. This is a suggestion. I, Ben, I'm not sure where you're looking for quotes for moving, but I know of an art handling outfit in Florence that does transportation and they're, and they build crates. And it's DAX, transportation, D-A-X, and they do, they handle lots and lots of private collections and college and university collections. Awesome, yeah, it's, I'll look into that. Yeah, we were looking at basically just like, you know, moving companies, but then also like companies that work with granite like countertops and have familiarity and the equipment to move very large stones. Stoves of stone? Yeah, like stone slabs. But this is a great suggestion, Jane. I think, you know, one, maybe that thought could be that the crates therein now might have to just be discarded and new crates made or at least temporary easels or A-frames made and get them out of the crates, just let them air out, get away from the insulation and whatever material they're against now and let them, you know, get acclimated to a new, to a climate-controlled environment. I guess, you know, they're, I think it was Irving or Jeremiah, or somebody even said that they might be concerned that there could be some, you know, they've been in a damp environment that you want to at least make sure there's no mold or any growth on them on all sides of them. So we're hoping to get them visible and, you know, if need to be clean, spot-clean and everything. So, I second Jane's recommendation that we use an art handler because it is marble. It's not granite. It's not another type of stone that's harder. Marble, its tensile strength really needs to be understood by whoever moves them. So someone who's used to moving statues and other marble things should be considered. Yeah, I found a mover from, maybe it was New Haven. It said online, it said they'd be willing to come up here, Ben. And then, of course, on the website, they had pictures of them, you know, moving, you know, it was more contemporary stone statues.  But they did, they were, they seem like they were capable of moving, you know, would be capable of moving the tablets too. So I can afford you their name if you want. Okay. Yeah, I'm on the website for DAX right now. It looks like they specialize in this area too, so. Yeah. That's a nice recommendation. Thanks, Jane. Sure. Yeah, Irving, the conservators aren't really. Yeah. They aren't, it's interesting, they don't, whether or not they just don't want to have the liability. They haven't really recommended a mover. So, you know, they're specialized in conserving stone, but not in moving stones. Yeah. And they're, they want a mover to break it so they get work to come fix it. Okay, anything more on the tablets? That's a good update. There's some progress there. Yeah. I do know we had author or voted to write the letter to the library last meeting. I didn't get around to that quite yet, but I'm a little freer now. Okay. I have a little more time now and I'd be glad to do that. Okay. So basically it was reminding the library of the task plans and maybe just inviting them to have conversations with us. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's something that hasn't only been, you know, it seemed like they were supported it actually and then with everything that's happened with their protracted process for the expansion it's kind of been lost and I don't, you know, it'd be nice just to see if it's something that's still a possibility. Yeah. So with that, shall we go along to the bylaw and maybe we can do a bit of a time check about how long we want to spend on that? I'm hoping we can conclude around eight o'clock. Is that? Yes. Does that sound reasonable? Yeah. Okay. So we could spend maybe 20 minutes on this and then race through the last stuff in five minutes. Sounds like a plan. Okay. Are you volunteering to be the type or Nate? Or do you want me to share my screen? Sorry, I was just trying to find out my screen. I had too many documents open. I can, what do members see? Is it legible? Do I need to make it bigger? No, it's legible for me. But last time it was great when Ben shared his screen because then as he typed it, we watched his process. I think I can do the same. Okay. You're putting me to the test here. Yeah. Yeah. Gotta be quick. So are we going to, do we need to review some of the suggestions from last time or can we go right to the next section? I thought that we just go, just move down and at some point we might have to do a review, but... Okay, good. So for the procedure, we had simplified it to this. And so I just want to make sure we read it. So we say no demolition permit for a building 50 years or older shall be issued without the following provisions of this bylaw. The building is of unknown age. It shall be assumed that the building is over 50 years old for the purposes of this bylaw. And, you know, lays out what's in an application. Like, you know, this was the kind of the key, some of the areas we come up with. And then we didn't really finish the public hearing procedure, some of the details. But one is the building commissioner shall within five business days, forward a copy of the complete application to the historical commission designee. If the application meets the definition of demolition as defined in this bylaw. So, you know, we're setting up this two-step process. The historical commission designee in townstache shall then within another five business days determine if the application concerns a significant building as defined in this bylaw. If there is disagreement, the application will be determined to concern a significant building. The historical commission will hold a public hearing for buildings found to be significant within another 20 business days. And that's kind of where we left it. One thing I would like to mention just quickly, when we looked at the draft that had been cleaned up and sent to us, I noticed a lot of the words that are in definitions that we've decided to capitalize. If you go back to the beginning or not. So, Ben or Nate, you might just go through and check. I had just one right after the other, I was noticing we'd forgotten to capitalize. Like words like demolition and significant building and things like that. So, that's just a cleanup thing towards the end. Sure. Yeah, no, but we don't want to lose sight of that because then it, you know, well, yeah. So, one thing that, you know, right now, the bylaw is inconsistent in that it outlines a hearing notification process and a hearing process, but then it mentions 40A. And 40A is Master General Law Chapter 40A sets out a different set of timelines and standards. So, when we had the workshop with Chris Skelly, he recommended not even mentioning 40A and just prescribing our own timeline. So, you know, it could be that, you know, what we say here in this section is that, that we just, you know, we provide notice to the applicant and the butters. You know, so right now we don't, staff generates the butters list. And, you know, with other regulatory boards, the applicant makes an a butters request through the assessor's office and it's essentially a certified a butters list. And, you know, so that's one, do we, would we want that as part of application form or not, or do we just, you know, that came up with an appeal with the barn on 290 Lincoln Ave, you know, years ago, that it wasn't a certified a butters list and the assessor kind of laughed and said, well, what staff generates is basically the same thing I generate. So, I just, you know, if we say in a butters list, we could just say, you know, notice to the applicant, a butters and parties interest shall be done by staff. And it could just say that, and it's not, you know, it's not a formal certified a butters list. I don't know if you want to mention that. We could just say that it'll be mailed out within 10 days. We could say 14 days, whatever we think is reasonable. By the, by town staff, so that it's clear that you came up with the list. Right, because, for instance, by town staff or, right, so we could say, notice the applicant of butters and parties interest shall be done. We could just say something by staff and then, and as described in the historical commission rules and regs or not, are we just, you know, we strike this? Yeah, I just say in 10 days. Yeah. Leave it. Is there any need for, what's the significance of, no, I've forgotten what I was just looking at. Oh, special permit. When that was in there, what was, why was that? Yeah, Chris Kelly recommended taking it out. I think like I was saying, the by-law now is inconsistent. It mentions one place, 10 days. And then I mentioned special permit, which is two weeks. And you're supposed to post it twice in the newspaper, which, you know, so my thought is we would just get out, you know, kind of delete that. And so we can say posting a publication with a local newspaper shall take place. Within 10 days. So a question about change in technology, is there, I mean, are we gonna have local newspapers? Like print newspapers, is that what this is suggesting or? Oh, maybe just say something like local news media or something because it might be online. Well, I'm wondering, I haven't seen this kind of notice in online news, local news media yet, but I'm wondering if would it, would there be any disadvantage in making it just slightly more general? Or is this, is local newspaper right now a criterion of a larger regulations at the state or national level? Yeah, for special permits and other permits, it's a local newspaper, you know, interestingly enough, like for block grant, local newspaper is not a requirement. It's just that you make a posting in, you know, they say local media or local, you know, a local, someplace that can be seen. So they don't even really prescribe a method. But so if we're not following the Massachusetts guidelines, we're just writing our own, we could say, we don't have to say paper, right? I mean, we say newspaper or media, name is that? I would say because this has to endure for the next 20 years, I would say something like within local news media, and that can be whatever is the form of media that's functioning at that time, you know? And don't forget an A to put the 10 days. I have it here. But that's different from the notice of the abutters. Yeah. Right? Yeah, we need something both places because they're different acts. It's probably the same wording prior to the public hearing. Yeah. Sure, yeah. And I don't know if we, how we define days. I think we, in the by-law, we... We made it business days. Yeah, we've been saying that, spelling it out, so. Business days. Capitalized because it's in the definitions. All right. And according to Chicago Manual, if it's one to 10, you're supposed to write it out. And after that, you use Arabic numerals. So you want me to... It should see, I think it's a TEN, but that's up to you. Well, then we have to go back to 50, because, you know... But that's over 10. I know, but in the manual, I use it all the time. Oh, we have to do that. Okay. One of my life's a copy of your approval, you're Alaska O'Chee, thanks. Yeah. Now, this is good. I actually won't have her look at this. And then the site visit. I mean, this is kind of, to me, kind of antiquated language too. I mean, do we just say, may hold a site visit? I mean, as, I mean... Yeah. That's good, yeah. If you need to say... We don't even need to say if necessary, because you may or may not. I mean, very good. Simple. I think that's probably sufficient. Do we need to say anything like arranged with the owner by town staff? Or is that getting too detailed? That's probably too detailed. That sounds more like a rules and reg thing. This would have to be within a certain amount of time. That's it. I mean, that would be, you know, ostensibly any time before the hearing. And the planning board sometimes goes the day of the hearing. So they'll go the morning of and the hearings that afternoon, it's not... You can just say, may hold a site visit prior to the hearing. Prior to the public hearing. Right. Capital P, capital H. Yeah. Right. Public hearing, all right. And we might have to rework this, but we might mean, this just explains kind of the... So this changes because, you know, the sort of commission of the public hearing, time to review the application, of course, with the standards for designation, or it's no longer this, it's what it stands for, for determining if it should be properly preserved. Yes. If the significant building, because it's already been determined to be that, right? Yes. If this significant building should be properly preserved. I would probably say weather instead of if, but that's just me. Yes. And I would say this building, just because we're talking about a very specific one at this point, right? So everything that's capitalized is referred to at the beginning of the document. As a definition. In that particular grid, right? Okay. It should be. And standards are not, so maybe why is that capitalized? Okay, they're not. Okay. You give up really easily. You know, I could scroll up, it's just then I think we'll have to do a fine, you know, another read of this just to make sure. Sure, yeah. But yeah, I think this for now, I mean, this is what I like about what we're doing here is we're really laying out a clear process. So if someone can't question, well, what does it mean according to 40A? Or what is this that we're saying? Okay, it's, and here this is one where this all changes. So, you know, we're... So if we shall determine that the significant structure is not... The significant building. Oh, significant building, right. Is not to be preferably preserved. Right. And I mean, we like this, that this process. Building, what are we saying? Is not to be preferably preserved. Not be preferably preserved capital. And I don't think here, I mean, I don't think we need to mention the criteria as it does here, criteria set forth because it's incorporated into this bylaw or what, I mean, formally, structurally, should we refer to back specifically to another section? Or... You know, my thought would be, do we just do something like this? Yeah. I like that. I like that. Yeah, we have a few guests here that... Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say. Raising their hand. Oh, and this is how you're saying days in the old, you're spelling it out and then putting it. Right. Emeralds, so I wanna do that. Thank you to the guest raising their hands. We were planning on taking public comment at the end of this at closer to eight. Yes, we were going, it's, I have 739 now and I think we were going to work on this until 755, but if we have members of the public for public comment, maybe we should back that up to 750. And most of them just left? Yes. Okay, they all just left. They all just left. I don't know if it was a... That was weird.  Yeah, maybe it was a planned Zoom bomb that just failed. Yeah, or maybe it was a... That was very strange. They clicked on the wrong link or something like that. That all had their hands raised. So yeah, so I mean, the process to me is quite different at what happened now with this file is there's the administrative step to determine significance. And then the commission really now can ask what's happening to the site. So, we wanna come up with guidelines for the future for the discussion at the hearing. And so what we're saying here is that the show not be perfectly preserved. I mean, do we need 14 days? I mean, we're, I don't know, subject to the requirements of the state building code. I mean, I'm not sure if we need any of this. The 14 days, is that for the benefit of... That term staff or... Yeah, that had been for the benefit of staff because, I don't know, what if someone's on vacation for a week? I don't know. I don't know how to get 14 days. Five days? It just happened the next morning. You just let them know. Would we say five consistent? Five business days? Within five business days. Yeah. Is that doable, Nate? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. So why don't we follow that format of five and then the numeral in friends? Oh yeah, so when this says within said days, the commission fails to act, the building commissioner may subject to the requirements of the state building code. Issue the demolition permit. Yeah, that's the problem is if we can't meet, right? Well, that puts the heat on you, Nate and Ben. No, this is after holding a public hearing. So this is basically like the commission's held a hearing, made a determination that the structure shall not be preferably preserved. And then staff has to turn that around to the building commissioner within five days so the permit could be issued. So... And so the rest of that isn't relevant because we have acted. Right. Yeah, I'm not sure what this is saying. I think this was in there as a safeguard that if the commission never conveyed its action to anyone that the permit just wouldn't hang out there, that the owner wouldn't be... That's really, it's with the staff once we finish. So if that is necessary, that last sentence, maybe it belongs under D, above maybe. Because the historical commission shall hold the public hearing, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I'm just gonna highlight it in yellow. It doesn't hold the hearing. I'm just gonna ask Rob what he thinks about this if it's even necessary. Yeah. And maybe that we just strike it. And at the beginning of E, public hearing should be capitalized. I mean, it's just another one of those situations. Yeah, let me just... I don't have any stuff, but you don't wanna catch it, eventually. Right. I think probably we should capitalize every word in the entire document. It'll look like something Benjamin Franklin wrote. I don't give it some heft. Yeah. Okay, so this to me would be, sitting in a building. And up above, if after such hearing, I would say after the public hearing. Let's keep it consistent. Oh yeah. I think as such. If. After the public hearing. Well, it's actually during the public hearing. Yeah, it's not after. If during the public hearing. And that's true for E as well. Yeah, yeah, we'll just say. Should we make that the public hearing? That public hearing. We're just making it much easier for the copy editor later. Right. See, we're saying if during the public hearing, the commission determines that the structure, significant building shall be perfectly preserved. I mean, do we, do we just keep the rest of this? And that the proposed demolition will be detrimental to the historical architectural heritage. Well, that's part of determining it's perfectly preserved. We don't need that. It would go down to ban it, shall transmit. Okay. Yeah, that clause there, that should be one of the criteria. Right. Yeah. Wait, this is the same thing as E. We let the building- He is saying if it's not preserved. And this is saying- Oh, shall be preserved. Okay. Right. And maybe we need more time for this, or do we- Well, we've got five or 10 more minutes. We say within 10 business days. Oh, sorry, you meant- I knew you meant that, I'm sorry. Yeah, within five minutes. Within five minutes. Five minutes. And then, so we're saying 18 months here. Yeah, we have to, we have to decide that. And we've talked about some pros and cons for- So it could say, should not be issued for up to, because we could have, we could have the determination to say six months with criteria of 12 months. That's a good idea, Pat. I haven't seen other bylaws do that, but I think that's very, that's a good idea. It gives us a range, because then we can, we can within the commission decide that, you know, we've done criteria for, if you can find someone to repurpose the materials, then come back to us in six months, if you could, and so just in case we don't want to have it delayed any more than that, but it doesn't have to be that. Hold on, I have to step away. My family was away, and I think they're back. So I just want to make sure that they're, that's what I'm hearing in the house. It's really your family. It's really my family. Can I make a comment? To have such an open-ended, can people hear me? Yes. Okay. To have such an open-ended structure, let's just imagine three to five years down the road that the historical commission is perhaps made up of people who are not quite as friendly to historic preservation. That opens up the possibility for, you know, incredibly limited delays. I would think that, you know, that there really is kind of a, you know, a pattern of a minimum of 12 months at this point because, you know, in a situation where somebody really wants to tear something down, six months is, and, you know, and it takes a while, I mean, I don't know that our community is necessarily in this, in this. So in the definitions where we define a demolition delay, we say 12, a 300, 12 month delay. So maybe what we do is we have a section, kind of the Rowan Cheer Point, we have a kind of an exception section, right? Where, you know, it could be lifted. So we would just say, no demolition permit shall be issued for the duration of the demolition delay. And do we? Yeah. And then that number can come on the definition. I should. Right. We're not right. Yeah. And we still, we still might want to change that number from 12 months to 18, but it doesn't have to show here. Right. The point of some of those definitions were to not have to be so repetitive in the, in the bylaw. So it's just, okay. And then this highlighted section, again, I'm not sure that's necessary. I don't know, I'm not sure why it's in there. It's just maybe, you know, it's again. Well, why don't you check on that, Nate, to see whether that needs to be there, whether it needs to be worded differently or it can be gone. Right. Yeah. All right. So yeah, I think that, I mean, that's a pretty clear process. Yeah. We did a whole section in, what, 15 minutes? Wow. We're getting faster. We're getting good at this. Of course, Nate and Tite's a little faster than Ben. Oh. Okay. To the next meeting. And you have to do the next meeting.  Yeah, exactly. It's been percolating a long time. Yeah. Would we, should we pause and take up the other agenda items at this point? Yeah, I think that's good. Yeah. Mr. Exempton's next meeting. Yeah. How much more do we have after exemptions? After exemptions. We're about halfway through. This is now, this demolition permit application has become somewhat redundant. And I think it's now this whole section of standards for designation. I think this is, this would be replaced by standards or whatever we're gonna call it for, preferably preserved. Right. And we've gone over those a few times so it might not take so long. And then here's the section of 13.5 is saying that, you know, for instance, if the owner or the applicant comes back and says, you know, this is when it allows them to come back. Lift it. Okay. Lift it. Emergency demolition, which I will say we've done it. You know, I think state building code allows the building commissioner to issue a permit for emergency demolition if it's a threat to public safety. So I'm not sure we need this in here. Let me just highlight this section now that I'm saying it because, you know, for instance, an applicant had applied a while ago and said, oh, it's gonna fall down. And so Rob went by and said, no, it's really not. It's not, you know, you can't just take it down as an emergency demolition. And so I mean, I think that that's just a, it's a state building code. I'm not sure if we need to have it here, but. But, you know what, Nate, I think it's worth checking the wording and leaving it there because there are some people who might try for emergency demolition and not know how that has to be processed. Sure. Yeah. I, we also, I mean, historically we, many of our, a significant number of our demolition permit applications refer to, I mean, just like this one tonight, unsafe condition. And, you know, we're, we can go look at it and we can say, oh, this doesn't look unsafe and then we're fine. But I'm not sure we're the ones to determine whether it is unsafe. I think we need some way, whether it's within the bylaw or within the rules and regulations. It should be about that condition, right? Yeah. Yeah. Of having an out and a neutral or outside determination of the condition when that is the reason for demolition. Right. No, yeah. Okay. So we can keep that. I think the next section is really what we don't have now is an expiration. So for instance, someone could come apply. We say they could take it down or there's a delay and then three years after the delay, they haven't reapplied and then they come back to town and say, oh, well, I can take my structure down now. And so, you know, I just put in or change of ownership. So if something to discuss, sometimes an owner will try to get a demolition application approved and then sell the property to a developer. So we could say that, you know, if during the demolition delay period, you know, a new owner has to submit a new permit. I mean, we could write that in. That's good. And then there's enforcement and penalties. So this is what we, you know, what we're talking about. Right. Yeah. So all right. So we can, we can look at the exemptions next time. Good. Boy, we're now we're sailing. Heddy, why did you send the Petersham? Petersham? Just because I was there and it occurred to me that, that, you know, the, I wasn't sure whether everyone was really taking on board how, how marble can deteriorate when exposed to natural elements. I have worked on cleaning a marble memorial in Hopedale. It's a statue. It's not a, you know, plaque kind of a thing. And, and then when I saw this one in Petersham, just on the weekend, I thought to myself, I know who I should send these to. Just because you could see how, how sugary it gets. I mean, it just reinforces how, how we need to really think about what, what kind of exhibit sort of setting we're, we're trying to create for these, for these artifacts and how, how we're going to really preserve them as well as interpret them.  I mean, they, they're, they're town memorials. They're, you know, they're part of, they, they ideally should be set with other town memorials, you know, and if you, it's like thinking about the National Mall in Washington, DC, or collecting things from people's graves, you know? There's a sort of, there's a really big context here for how we, how we think about the display of these and what we say about them and, you know, and also know that they are these very friable bits of material culture, you know, this, the marble can, can get really damaged. So I don't, I don't know what the answers are. I'm just trying to provide some of the context. No, thanks. I mean, it's interesting. I feel like, you know, what you sent and bended some research and I looked at images too. And because this tablets were always inside, it was almost like they knew that they could be damaged. So some communities put them outside. And by this time, if they had been outside now, they would be maybe illegible. Yeah, exactly. That's not the case here. And so. Yeah, exactly. Right, it's a different context for how we want to preserve them. Yeah. So should we do the updates? Let's, yeah, let's do updates. Do we need to repeat writer's walk? Yeah, let's repeat it just so everyone can hear, you know, we Anthony the town's procurement officer did ask quotes from companies. No one responded. However, art effects. Anthony then reached back out to everyone. And, you know, one of the fabricators said that because of the COVID, they're not, they, you know, maybe they just lost workers, but they're not really doing much right now. But art effects, another company said that they would be interested.  One was whether or not we would prefer steel or aluminum, we had specified steel. And I'm not sure, you know, it could just be cost could be a reason, it could be durability, but they were interested in doing that. So. Do we need to, do we need to make a recommendation about steel or aluminum this evening? And a second question is, does there need to be a minimum number of responses in order to award a bid? No, no. So with this one, it's just, you know, I'm not sure if Anthony has to put it back out again or if they responded that they're interested in that they're the only ones, so that we just go with them now. So I'm not sure. But yeah, I'm not sure, you know, I don't know what the benefits or drawbacks that aluminum or steel would be. I think, you know, I know that, I know for both, I just, you know, Nate, I'm looking at the 2018 quote from Arfix for the Wayfinding Signs, and there it says aluminum, you know. Yeah, right. And then we're going to paint it to look like steel, right? So we changed, originally we're going to have steel for the town's Wayfinding Signs, then we changed to aluminum. The painting wasn't especially successful. Right. Right, and aluminum, I believe, would not be as durable as steel. And is there a preference, a recommendation, or do we, I don't... I would ask them for what they would recommend. And why? And why? Actually, this was for the, they said Amherst Wayfinding, but actually it was for the Ryder's Walk, it was for 11 single standing ones, and it was 18755 for 11 of them. Right. So we figured, you know, with the cards at the, what's it called? The visitor's... Town center thing. And then the difference on this, and needing one more that we would easily hit our 25,000. So, but that was with aluminum, which I think is probably better, but... Steel would prices out, probably. It's aluminum, just softer. It's lighter, I don't know if it's softer. It's lighter, but it can have a tendency to crack. Yeah. And so, it might not be as durable as steel, but if it's affordable, then getting those signs up is important. So one approach might be, I mean, if we're concerned about durability and about budget, we could ask them for an estimate for, or a bid for steel and have aluminum as an alternate. Yeah, good idea. According to Google, steel's harder than aluminum. Yeah. Less likely to warp to form or bend. Right. For us, the heat, 2.5 times denser than aluminum and weighs, let's see, steel weighs 490 pounds per cubic foot, and aluminum only weighs 168. So then we have to start thinking how heavy are the signs in terms of the post we're gonna use too. Yeah, I'll ask public works and artifacts, what they, you know, we can ask for a quote for both and just see how that works. Right. Mm-hmm. Okay. Try to move on it. Yeah. Okay. West cemetery signs. You know, I, you know, I've reached out to, this is again, to Archipelago and it's been, I'm sure it bend it again. There isn't much to say. I think, you know, I keep it on here just so we don't forget ourselves. But I don't have an update. Okay. And then UMass campus bond? You know, I, I, I've been at center on some information. I think I sent something that they were planning to, you know, maybe it's really just a, you know, work within the water. And then there was, you know, some a bit of shoreline that would be disturbed that they would replicate, but it wasn't really a, you know, a camp, a shoreline restoration project.  It's really more digging like this. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I remember that we were gonna send some kind of a letter about them restoring the original plantings. Am I, did we discuss that? Or did we just say just spend letter and I think we want, we were first asking what, what they were doing. So I don't know. Right. To me, it sounds like they're not actually trying to touch any of the plantings. They're really just trying to dredge the pond. Yeah. Yeah. There's just a small area of shoreline that they're disturbing to actually like bring the equipment in and out of the pond when they do the dredging. And then. Then they'll restore whatever fully interested. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And we'll say just another update. I did send an email to Mass Historic in the telecommunications company about the cell tower or whatever the tower was behind. Oh yeah. Right. I didn't hear back, but at least I sent it and yeah. Let them know what we, what we recommended so. Okay. Thank you. Our host, Nate Ben, are there any members of the public in our meeting? I heard the green bomb has been in attendance. I don't know. If there's public comment now, if anyone has any other comments. Yes. Yeah. This is the period for public comment. So if any members of the public wish to make a comment, this is the time. Please raise your hand. It's fine. I actually think the other members that came in, Ben, I actually wonder if they were just here to cause trouble if, you know, the way they came in. Yeah. Left. They all raised their hand and like maybe thought that we were gonna promote them to panelists or something. Maybe it was a flash mob. Yeah. It was crazy. They all came in at once. But no song or music. We set these up as webinars. So members of the public don't have the ability to just speak freely. And I think some communities, it's more expensive. And so some communities don't do that. So, you know, they'll just have every meetings, a public meeting and everyone has the ability to speak whenever they would like. They just have to unmute themselves. And so that's when you get the zoom bombing more often is with that type of setup. Unanticipated items. I know Robin has one that she would like to bring up. I just wanted to know if we had the, well the CPA proposal application and now announcement has gone live. Correct, Nate? Yes. Right. Okay. I couldn't find the link to it. I was wondering if you have the amarist.me.gov and then like the news banner, the second one, it's a little news item. It went out I think last week. Yeah, yesterday. Because I forwarded it to some people who are interested. Okay, yeah. I think I looked for it today, but I didn't see it. Okay. I was wondering if we had a definitive list who we distribute the link to the announcement to encourage proposals. And if that was something we wanted to build over time. So that it's not just the usual suspects, like how do we do outreach to effectively get people who might be interested in this proposal process notified? Good question. It goes in the newspaper, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, we, you know, the CPA committee staff has a list of all the previous recipients and they typically email that out. I mean, there's not a, I don't know if there's a code. I mean, we could send it for instance to the bid or, you know, I don't know of a coalition, you know, the Amherst as a cultural district. Yeah, Amherst as a cultural district. And I think the bid is a good idea. They send out a week, I think it's a weekly newsletter. And that would be good to have them put up a notice. I think they'd be willing to do that. What about the preservation lists, sir? Any reason to put it in the whole state, right? Yeah, but, you know, I don't know if people on there talk to each other. I mean, people do talk to each other from different communities. They put out a lot of the thought. It could do, yeah, the mass preservation lists, sir. People throw to me just because they know I'm on this commission. And so I send it out to all those who've asked me about it. So I'm gonna go word on that. There's also a Pioneer Valley history group that meets occasionally. Should be like owners of 18th and 19th century houses in the valley or something that could just be an address list. I mean, I was thinking about everybody on the outbuilding list. I mean, that would be... We don't maintain a database in that way. You know, there's the Amherst Human Service Network, which is kind of a loose coalition of human service agencies, but we don't have a similar thing for, you know, historic preservation agencies or owners. Right.  You didn't say Pioneer Valley Planning Commission, but what you said reminded me, we could even send it there to see, you know, they might have contacts as well. Yeah, for people who've asked them. Right. We could also... I think the bid is probably actually a little bit better than the chamber, but we could send it to the Chamber of Commerce also. Well, no harm in sending it everywhere, right? Yeah, right, right. Especially as the timeframe is a bit more accelerated than usual. Right. I mean, they probably both see these things that we all see that come on email every announcement from the town, but just in case. Do we know whether the house we visited on, oh gosh, Main Street? Right. Do we know whether they are aware of this as a potential source of funding for preservation work on that building? Because that was an interesting house. Didn't somebody say they talked to them about it? My bad. They've submitted a CPA proposal in the past. Okay. A few years ago. Yeah. This is the Gis Markonke house. Yeah. Ben, you've been most recently in contact with them. Maybe if you just sent it again to the property manager and whoever you spoke with, just to, you know, maybe just to remind them again. Okay. And basically, what am I sending them? The link to the web page? Yeah, I'm just saying that they're eligible if they needed, you know. Okay. And I think, you know, what's interesting about that is it's a, you know, the property manager has taken the lead in discussions before I had been a representative from the condominium association. But I feel like, you know, with that group, they need a little bit more explanation and help, you know, a little bit more nudging to get a proposal in. But so if you just email them, Ben, you know, I can meet with them again or have a meeting or something just to, you know, I think it's eligible and I think it needs, it could use CPA funding. It's just, are they willing to put the work in and submit something? Yeah, they might need some guidance on the appropriate thing to submit so that it's, you know, more preservation and less long-term maintenance. Right. People, I have to go. What's our next meeting date? So our next meeting date needs to collaborate with the CPA schedule. It's the 21st of October if it's the third Wednesday. So we should do it earlier in this time. The CPA proposals are due October 12th. I mean, do we want to meet before then or do we not need to? I think we're, the 21st would be fine. So that means on the 21st, an agenda item would be reviewing all the CPA proposals that were submitted under historic preservation. I mean, that would work. Right, and then 22nd is the beginning. Is that right? The beginning of the CPA presentations? I'm not familiar with that. I haven't looked enough. So the 21st works for me. So if you're going to write up the one that we're putting together for the cemetery, you could just send it around for us to see and if we have any suggestions, we could just send them back directly to you. Correct, yes. Okay, great. So do we have a... Okay. The CPA meeting is, sorry, I'm going to go into the CPA meeting that begins to review the proposals and have presentations is the 22nd of October. So it can't be any later than the 21st. So the 21st is good. Okay, sometimes it has taken us more than one meeting to come up with our recommendations. So if we meet on the 21st, I think we could be prepared to spend the majority of the meeting sorting through this. So we're not going to get any further on the bylaws. Right. We'll see. We're going to put the bylaw first for 20 minutes and we can just tell everyone who does CPA proposals, we can actually have a time down the agenda and say 6.20 and we give ourselves 20 minutes to go through exemptions. I mean, I'm just starting out there. And maybe now I had that we might go to 8.30 and allow for that. Everybody plan on it? Yeah, it could be a long meeting because we would need, we would need to hear the presentations then we would need to discuss our, you know, our priorities and... We had three-hour meetings before and it could easily be that. So maybe we should just block out until nine this time. Do we... Can I make another suggestion? Could we... Yes, please. Meet the week before and then if we needed to schedule further time, we still have the following week. If we, you know, if things just ran way over, would that make sense? Give ourselves more time. If we're just seeing us two weeks in a row or seeing us for three hours at a time. That's a big question. Yeah. Well, so the proposals are due on the 12th, you said? Yes. So everybody should be prepared, should be well-prepared to make a presentation on the 14th. I think that's, I think that's fine. And if we need, I mean, you know, we can construct an agenda that does include the other items we want to address and if we can't get to them, then we could have the pleasure of seeing each other again the next week. So we should save that as a backup time though. I think so. Yeah, it's kind of that, yeah. Yeah. Block it out, folks. All right, so the 14th and then the 21st, that's fine. Yeah, three hours each, six hours, we should all get everything done for the whole year. Fantastic. Yeah, bring your dinner. All right, well, that's great.  We're just gonna blast through the rest of the by-law without any trouble. Thank you, everybody. The magic of Zoom. I propose we adjourn. Second, okay, all in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay.