Welcome everybody welcome to classic cast number 20. I'm here with tips out baby I'm here with stay safe TV and today we we got a little bit to talk about about Blizzard's proposed patch progression for classic this is something that's come up I think for all of our streams you know quite a bit we've all talked about it and our thoughts about our concerns about it but we really wanted to have a classic cast where we go in and kind of delve into it a little bit and explain why we feel the way that we do one thing actually let's go ahead and start there was a blue post recently regarding classic stay safe do you want to go ahead and do you want to go ahead and get into that yeah we're gonna read through it you forgive me everyone I'm still sort of learning how to read so it's maybe like two or three paragraphs here so it's a guy on the Battle.net forums in the Classic WoW section that says this in the Nithissans response to it in a moment he says this is the random poster mouse and companions you getting classic should not be usable across multiple characters on the same classic account however you should be able to have these rewards in retail this will increase the longevity of classic WoW while I can fully understand the argument for people will just play classic WoW for the achievements mounts companions instead of classic itself and the people who want to play that is not in and of itself a bad thing some people only still play retail for mounts companions appearances such as myself while I would be playing classic WoW for the gameplay getting things I can use on live as well would be an added bonus and would encourage me to use the classic servers more I can understand concerns for a slippery slope which is why I think they should only solely and be nothing other than one way classic appearances mounts companions only go to retail not vice versa he then goes on to say unique rewards might be something to consider such as special pets sets or mounts for completing raids and dedicating time in classic WoW someone who only wants the rewards and wants the single-player experience won't be able to get those rewards and will be forced to immerse themselves in the community if they do similarly to how if you wanted to raid you had to immerse yourself in the community except now you have raiding and something you want in retail this will help to solve the problem that's in the community right now of silence and single-player experiences with other people around by reminding them what it's like to be part of a realm-wide community in World of Warcraft so S1 I just go ahead and read Yithissin's response to that yeah and just yeah just to clarify that that was the original post this was a forum goer that posted this and then Yithissin's responded with you know like it was stated at BlizzCon there will be no crossover and rewards between retail WoW and classic WoW they said that at BlizzCon he reiterated that I don't think there's any need to change that stance but we appreciate your post okay of course right like whatever dude no but I say like there's no need to change it I think it's fair to ask for an opportunity turn those rewards again I don't think it should come at the cost of diminishing the rewards that players earned years ago and cherish I think the opportunity to earn and have them exclusively on classic is fair because it's staying on classic itself I think any more crossover than that should could be damaging and lessen the value or prestige of those rewards it's pretty solid philosophy at the moment that there will be zero crossover of rewards so good news I think in that regard for that that they have that stance and there was another guy who responded with something else stays if you have that open yeah let me scroll down and look at it here so in response to that into the response to the discussion that we just read another third poster comes in and says literally one of the two reasons I'd ever consider doing classic just shot down instantly you know that thing that's used to keep people playing farming transmogs and mounds and pets he's referring to you guys are just throwing it away seems very silly and then Jethison's response with something else that's fun yeah sorry you feel this way but if that's what you were hoping for then it sounds like classic isn't really for you that's okay though I still encourage you to try it it's not throwing it away it's giving the community that wants classic the most authentic experience that we can provide adding any sort of reward carry over in either direction is an authentic and defeats the point classic is there for those that want to play it not just for rewards on their bfa license which would be devaluing to those that earn those rewards that are no longer obtainable and vice versa would be introducing things that were never there in classic to begin with neither of which we want to do in this case we know the community that's been asking for classic for years doesn't want either the scenarios and neither do we so I just think it's real funny real quick so so the guy says you know the thing that's used to keep people playing the the player says this to Jethison's and I just think that's so funny because it's like like I mean I don't know I just think it's hilarious that they're saying like okay look like I want to play dress up and retail wow and it's like okay well what about back in the day where the game was about the game right yeah it was about it was about the experience of the game you're rating you're playing with people you're doing this and like sure you I just mentioned some things that still still exist in the game sure but it's uh for my personal opinion it's it's clearly not as rewarding so I don't know I was the poster that said no I completely agree it's a one-way street classic is classic there's no reason to link the two games it opens up a world of pain it opens up a world of possibilities that I don't think anyone wants the wow token could potentially be linked I mean there's so many things that could happen that it's best to avoid that can of words altogether right outside of the sub really right so yeah and this guy in the original post the one I read at first he's sort of suggesting that in order for people to want to participate in classic wow group activities they'll need to be incentivized with mounts pets companions sets transmog that carry over to retail wow and I think I think if someone has that opinion that's very clear to me that that person hasn't played vanilla wow because that that's just what the game is like vanilla wow is so good that's what the game is about you don't need to coerce people or offer them crossover game rewards in order to get people to do upper black rock spire like it's just fun right it's that's just the game right no and I don't know like yeah like vanilla wow it has its own two legs to stand on you don't have to bribe people to play it mm-hmm and I think I think it's important I think it's I think it's good that they came out and mentioned that that because that's an opinion we've had is like classic isn't necessarily for everybody like obviously with any game you want as many people playing it as possible sure and you want to you don't want to shut people out of it but at the same time like you can't you can't sacrifice like what the game is for for that right just to get like you know a certain group of people to play classic and retail wow or or I should say modern wow or live wow or whatever you want to call it now they're they're two different markets right and I think I think there's people that fit into both of those markets and that's fine but it isn't for everybody and and I think it's cool that they acknowledge that and they understand that yeah I mean there there's no reason why there has to be a hundred percent crossover obviously if if there's a lot of crossover I guess that's good but to expect that 100% of retail players to enjoy classic one 100% of classical players to enjoy retail it's probably an unrealistic expectation I mean it is to divergent in two different markets and that's totally that's perfectly fine I think for sure I'm agreed and it's it's very it's very nice to me I mean I think this is good news get this sincere I like him a lot it seems to me I get the impression from his responses that blizzard is probably aware of that that they're not going to compromise classic wow in order to cater to people that really don't have any interest in in enjoying classic wow just for just for what classic wow is right which is good I mean the the sort of the the back point of classic wow the fundamentals of the gameplay experience shouldn't be compromised to try to get more retail players in the classic well 100%. So from there that's good news that's good news but from there we kind of want to go on to the main point of this podcast the main point of this episode I should say and that's to kind of like I said dive in a little bit more deeply into the design philosophy and what they want to do with in terms of patch progression for classic so they came out and they said at BlizzCon that they were currently thinking so it's not set in stone but they were currently thinking about doing four separate stages of content release with classic the first stage was MC and Ixia, Dire Maul, Kazak and Azergos, the second stage was going to be Blackwing Lair, PVP rewards and battlegrounds so I'm assuming the honor system I think it's safe to assume that it's going to be the honor system in stage two but at least the rewards in stage two and ZG with BWL as well. The third stage, AQ Patch, tier 0.5, the Silithus stuff with the Sonarian Circle and whatnot the Silithus content and then also the Emerald Dragons and then the fourth stage was going to be Nax, Scourge Invasion. So basically, well I was just going to say one more thing, they basically took the four major raids with MC, BWL, AQ and Nax and then they split it up into into packages of content around that. So Silith, go ahead sorry. Yeah I was going to say I mean I think we can all agree I think the general consensus of the classic WoW community right now is that it's not enough content patches right it's just it's too clumped you know it's I mean we're going to talk about this as we go on with the podcast but Dire Maul should probably come out after Molten Core and Enixio like Zul'Gorub should probably come out after Blackwing Lair it's just too clumped up right now it's too much all at once or too much um yeah too much all at once and it's just not it's just not and not a not a good idea and we're going to sort of break that down as we go on with this. Yeah so um the kind of let's just go ahead let's just go ahead and go right into stage one and what it is uh MC and Enixio they well it doesn't even mention Maradon right so it's probably not even you know on the radar like they have that set in stone like they're going to have Maradon on launch which I don't think it's a big uh I don't think that's an issue I mean that's something that they had done you know the concept of patch progression isn't something foreign or sorry uh phased content release uh kind of packaging certain patches together isn't something completely foreign uh they've done this on on the most recent private servers like the the Nostcore private servers that's what they've done uh basically releasing on 1.2 so I think Maradon on launch is totally fine and and about Maradon this is one thing they they actually told us when we were meeting with them at BlizzCon some of the classic devs they said that you know vanilla well came out at different points in time uh around the world and so for Europe in Europe which came out a month after North America Maradon was out right so I think there's actually a decent argument to just have Maradon be there it's as far as like in-game implications of having Maradon there a month early or a month late you know it's really not the end of the world I'm if like I would be happy if they delayed it a month I'm fine with that but I just don't think it's I don't think it's the biggest issue to complain about right now I think like Dire Maul and Zogorub and World Dragons and stuff like that that's where we should focus our attention not Maradon which is a lot more trivial I think I agree absolutely it was patched in three weeks after the game launched and I'll likely have very few people that hit 60 within three weeks so it's negligible I agree the focus should be on Dire Maul and the world of bosses and the other stages as well. So uh Moltencore, Enixia, they were in on launch but Dire Maul and Kazek and Azergros weren't put in until patch 1.3 uh which I believe was nearly four months just about four months after uh after launch and uh it was I believe just about one month after uh after the EU launch so you know different different points of time like we said the game came out in different points of time for for different regions but um having something like Dire Maul in on launch is to me that's a big concern and when we all kind of share that sentiment but reason being is because whenever you put Dire Maul into the game it introduces a kind of like a new a new catalog of gear for you to receive for your character if you're like a caster there's a lot of like plus damage items there's some plus healing items and the thing with this gear is it's not just pre raid bis gear it's gear that's better than a lot of gear in Moltencore it just trivializes the raid gear a lot of it yeah there there are some pieces like that um and then on top of that like you have the world buffs that come in which uh are there to really help you I mean it's it's kind of like speed run private server meta like okay like go get all your world buffs your consumes boom boom and then try and do MC as fast as you can but also it helps a lot for your raid to actually like just do the raid right and you know if you die you die and you lose your buffs but that's just one more thing that's added into the game that is uh it kind of makes the content easier uh you already have this with like you know you're already going with 1.12 talents you're already saying 16 debuff slots this is just one more thing on launch that kind of adds to it so and this I think you know more than the other stuff I think this is something that is a bigger deal to me the I think face content the the way they've done the face content release is a much bigger deal to me than a lot of the other stuff so I think if you can spread this out if you can spread out the diremall and kazakh and all that stuff coming out a little bit later than launch uh not only is it better for the health of the game but it's also better for blizzard because this is a problem that retail wow has and and they've had for years is like they they'll have like three or four patches in an expansion and you know it'll be like a major content release whatever uh but there's this there's such a heavy like lol there's a huge content drought and and retails experiencing this right now and uh you know sure we know what's coming but you know in retail it's like okay like if the patch isn't good then that's like a nightmare for them you know they need they need something they they need to have like a constant release of content so that people stay hype for it people stay subbed like that to me it does this like this doesn't really make any sense uh on any level like not for the players not for blizzard uh hardcore players or casual players and um i'll kind of go into on on casual players are not going to like this because and they might not know that they don't like this because they they don't understand the extent of it uh because the high end players are going to be able to come in these are the guys who just know everything about vanilla they're going to rush to 60 they're going to go straight into dire mall they're going to start farming they're going to start doing dm north dm east jump runs there's going to be a lot of stuff that they can do while somebody who might be new to the game or or can play more casually is basically going to get left in the dust and sure like that might happen that might happen anyway right that they get left in the dust but to the extent that it's going to happen where you have the high end going in and they're basically going to take over the economy they're going to have all the best gear uh in in pvp for in terms of like faction balance and stuff goes like these guys are going to be able to have more presence in the world i think it's something that um sure like you know you might hear about and as a high end player like oh yeah that's great right but the problem is is you're just going to get bored and it goes back to the original point of like you're you're not having another another patch put in for however many months right i don't think that's something that's good yeah absolutely the thing i take away most from this is how it disrupts the ebb and flow of progression if you're releasing dire mall kazakh azure goes but more specifically dire mall with emcee and anixio all of a sudden emcee does not feel as valuable or as impactful of a raid as it would be if it was by itself all of a sudden those purples and emcee don't seem as enticing as they would had dire mall not been out because all of a sudden you have better pieces of gear in many cases that are loodable from this five-man dungeon why on earth would you go in molten core obviously you'll go in just for the experience but the incentive to go into molten core diminishes dramatically and that's the case also with bwl and zg and and it continues onward in these stages basically the most important thing is to create a smooth sense of progression in classic wow and the way these these stages are packaged that sense of progression is compromised because some portions of the stage content is objectively better or more rewarding than other portions of the content and in many cases it ends up trivializing the raids in lieu of the five minutes yeah i think a big part of you know progression and player player character progression is sort of like a psychological thing you need to feel like there needs to be a proper time investment or effort investment to reward ratio you need to feel like you're actually getting things out of the effort you put into the game and like tipp said you you will feel less rewarded and you know farming molten core for the first six weeks or seven weeks if you can just go into dire mall and you know 90 percent of molten core gear is trivial for you you can just go and get it out of a five-man dungeon so yeah i and s1 was hitting on this i think as a as the classical community the more hype events you know let's say instead of four content release phases let's say there was six or seven you know it's just more you know you guys in like five weeks we're gonna have this to do we're gonna have this we're gonna have that to do you'll have youtube videos about it you'll have forums about it you'll have people on stream talking about it you'll have people in trade chat talking about it i think oh underestimating the importance of that just community hype i can't wait for this to happen man like that's i think that's a mistake to underestimate the value of that right and we've seen it on private servers too i mean like you know in the past whenever there's a new patch coming or anything that happens oh people are preparing for the patch they know they sure they know what's coming they understand that aq's coming out let's start farming nature resist gear let's start doing this um that's fine to know what's coming but the hype and the preparation and everybody's saying like oh like let's do this let's do that and people are talking about it and people are going they're searching like you know what what should i get for my best in slot for this patch you know what's coming out in aq that i really need to have is as a fury warrior or rogue or mage or whatever uh all that stuff's good right the more people are talking about your game in a positive light uh the better right and that's kind of that that's one thing i want to emphasize like four phases only four phases just doesn't make sense from any standpoint i think i mean there's 11 patches in vanilla you know it starts with 1.1 it goes to 1.12 like i mean i think uh i think lights hope is doing nine they did nine phases of content release so like like i said phased content release packaging the different content together is not crazy you know i i think you know nine nine is good but i don't think that they're going to be able to move it to nine or they're not going to want to move it to nine but like six seven eight patches would be so much better you know at bare minimum six because i think they need to split up uh the honor system they need to split up zg from bwl uh we'll get into that a little bit or um actually let's go ahead and talk about that now right do you guys have anything else with the first stage that you want to do you want to talk about or touch on before we move on to i guess let's talk about pvp in stage two i mean just just one more thing with dire mall like i don't i don't want to i don't want to trivialize the negative impact of you know of of the other stages and how cluster they are but i think like i think you probably agree guys having dire mall early is probably the biggest mistake on this on this timeline we see right now do you agree with that having early dire mall i mean just the gear you get i mean you have the trinkets first off the royal seals of elderthalos depending on on your class those are very good or sort of shitty but uh most of them are very good um caster i mean you guys can talk about melee dps for casters you have so much spell power and you have so much crit rating um it is casters see a huge increase in dps healers um hide of the wild a bunch of healing spell power gear what about for melee dps tarnish delvin rings very strong best in sloth for a number of classes read out cloak as well it's the only cloak defense on it pre raid pretty much um there's a lot of space the male chest piece is uh i think with two crit on it something like that it's it's really really good yeah and the tribute buffs 200 attack power 3 spell crit 50 stamina like this isn't like what we're trying to say is it's not just like a 1% or a 2% damage boost with our mall being at one this is potentially like a 15 to 20% raid wide damage and healing buff and if you guys want an example to happen and wow picture the icc buff the uh the strength of brin buff and icc back in the day picture that being in molten core at launch we already talked about how easy molten core is everybody raves oh my god molten core is the easiest raid ever no one's gonna have a problem with it imagine throwing on another 15 to 20% nerf because of this gear and because of these buffs that's what we're talking about greatly diminishes the value and the difficulty of the content and ultimately it makes it less memorable which obviously is not what we're about and you know that's all true you're absolutely right and this isn't even mentioning the economic implications of diamal north gold farming or diamal east farming or farming the books of uh what are they called furrows compendium of dragon's land there's there's so much just the economic implications are huge with having diamal out yeah mm-hmm yeah and and one thing to kind of emphasize i guess or not emphasize but to consider is that and and jake rogersby mentioned this in the chat sure in retail vanilla wow a lot of people weren't even level 60 by the time diamal came out but i mean things are different now like people know everything in terms of like not people know everything is kind of like a it's like a buzz statement but there's so many more people that have access to more knowledge there's resources out there there's guides on leveling and stuff that um weren't as readily available back in 2004 so in an early 2005 the problem is is that whenever you have all these people that you know would have been like the guy on their server back in the day they're all like they're all flooded into the population now and compared to before and they're just going to go in and they're going to be able to take advantage of all these things that uh weren't an issue back then yeah i mean the the few people that just know everything from playing on private servers or from having played way back in the day they're going to dominate the more content there is the easy it is the easier it is for them to sort of manipulate and be successful and then the people that are new i mean i i think most people playing classical are going to be fresh fresh players i don't think i think there's going to be a lot of noobs and it's going to be great but um if there's like stuff like dire malout they're just they're going to get dusted there's no other way to put it yeah bad bad for everybody i mean and then everybody else is going to get bored and they're going to end up raid logging like it's just yeah as a guild leader like that's one thing i don't like is as i don't like having i understand like you know people have different situations but for the kind of guild i want to run i don't necessarily want to have a bunch of people in their raid logging because you know you're going to need to get a hold of people or people are going to need to farm this or do that and do stuff together as a guild um i just think it's bad so i just think it's bad i agree yeah i completely agree squad w okay let's do um let's let's go on to phase two actually so um and phase two that's whenever they said they put in the pvp rewards uh zg is coming out with bwl so in a similar vein of dire mall coming out with mc and i would say even a bigger deal because the rewards in zg are even bigger than dire mall um as far as gear rewards um let's start with pvp sorry getting ahead of myself with pvp the the honor system was implemented in patch 1.4 and blackwing lair was put out in patch 1.6 they're saying that they want to put all the battlegrounds in everything at once i think that's fine i think i think that's okay um but if they put in the pvp system with the launch of bwl then i think it's going to it does a number of things one of the things namely and and at the end of the day i think this is the most important thing it makes pvp not as fun because it's if it takes longer to be put into the game it won't be as desirable to do if it's not as desirable to do and get the honor rewards then it effectively makes it less fun because there's less people in the in the player pool less people queuing for battlegrounds whatever i think not having it on launch is actually something that's really good because you're not able to go in there and just pick up the honor gear right off the bat um private server meta and retail vanilla meta are two different things on private servers the honor system is put in in the beginning uh people go in and they started getting their their honor gear and they use that gear to actually progress through the raid content in vanilla pvp gear was seen more as like an alternative to rating gear as opposed to uh as opposed to a supplement to rating gear and uh i think i think that's something that's that's pretty big personally yeah first off i definitely agree with the decision not to have the honor system or battlegrounds in the game at launch i think having it be delayed is very important it's very important for a lot of reasons we've talked about that before and it's weird because you know in like you mentioned um in actual vanilla the honor system and battlegrounds um came out two patches before blacking layer so it in certain cases in vanilla wow people were going into blacking layer with rank 12 13 14 gear so in a weird way if they release on stage two pvp systems in battlegrounds at the same time as blacking layer it will actually be like bwl actually be a little bit harder than it was in vanilla wow because people because people won't have rank 14 weapons or 12 or 13 gear right off the bat i think i think that mostly affects like the high end like the hardcore player base but you're right because they won't be able to go in there and and like stack a bunch of rank 14 warriors and cycle because one thing that happens is like um like rating rating on a two week schedule right rating on a two week schedule is something that happens and you would see this on private servers for like the really high end guilds they would raid on the last day of a reset and the first day of a reset so you raid two nights in a row and then you spend all the time between that it's almost two weeks being pvp spec and just like grinding honor and this would happen like at the beginning of a launch of a server and i mean it's something that's cool for sure but it's uh that something like that probably wouldn't exist anymore it wouldn't be it wouldn't be as big of a deal because there won't be as many people doing pvp just to supplement their rating just to help out their their pve performance which again i think it's fine right i mean that's that that was like the vanilla meta but then if you put it in the second stage where is where it's coming out with bw well i don't know how many months after release but original bwl came out i think like eight months after release so i would presume that it would be somewhere between like six to eight months after release um putting in at the same time as that that's so long to go without pvp rewards um and and you know maybe even the honor system i'm assuming that that's when they're putting in the honor system because it doesn't really make sense to put in the honor system without putting in any rewards because then what's going to happen is people are going to farm honor and stuff and then as soon as the rewards come out like you're just whatever rank you are on that on patch day like you can get access to all that gear like i don't know that seems weird so yeah but um sorry go ahead i agree well yeah like specific with the pvp rewards there's a couple of things that go into that too it's like oh version of the pvp gear we're gonna be getting um are we getting the updated version are we not getting the updated version that plays a big role uh i guess it all depends we don't really know um but also you have zg uh and and you have the world buffs associated with zg i think with the world buffs and zg bwl i mean i think i think it does have a similar effect with daramal in the sense that it does kind of it hurts the the integrity of bwl's difficulty and stuff but you've got the enchants too i mean like i don't understand why there isn't something between stage two and stage three why why don't they just put zg um and the green dragons together as their own separate stage just because green dragons came before aq anyway like i it doesn't make sense to me like why did they go so far out of their way to to have four stages in particular yeah and i think they're i don't i don't know if they're trying to like limit like production time or i don't know i don't know what they're trying to do exactly with it so i i would speculate they're doing it for two reasons one they said when they're designing classic wow they're thinking 15 years down the road i think they're looking for an easily replicable cycle like an easy replicable content release timeline two and this is total speculation on my part but could be the case if you remember when they were doing the the classic wow blizzcon panel back at blizzcon uh last month early November they said that they dug through old boxes and found a what was it like like a 1.12 database and that that's that's what they're basing classic wow off of it it is possible it is possible i don't know i don't know the the the the exact logistics of this it is possible they don't have item databases for anything prior to 1.12 it is possible that we see molten core with an updated loot table it is possible we see everything with updated loot tables which is why they are basing um just hypothetical if stage one releases with an updated loot table molten core having diremall out at the same time or launching at the same time is not that big of a deal because you're not going to go comparatively because you updated molten core loot tables diremall is not that much of impact anymore so if that could be what's going on behind the scenes i have no freaking idea but just that is i guess it's a possibility i don't know anything yeah i think yeah i think you have a good point about like i mean if the loot is better in molten core than it was on release then putting in diremall at release uh it it doesn't make it as big of a deal uh i i still think i still think it's it's a problem because it goes back to like the same concept of kind of like the small progressions and stuff now now you're saying like that's that might be what they're thinking with this but um i don't know i i still think just having like the constant state of progression i've talked about it before you go you go to retail wow and you get all your levels and you get one talent point every 15 levels and it's just like i i feel like my character is not progressing while i'm leveling and that was like a big and we we just did project 60 and it's still uh it's still kind of going on a little bit like casually people are raid logging and whatnot but um the the big thing was just like the leveling just felt so boring and they're they're nerfing xp rates okay i get that but but the problem the problem isn't how slow you level the problem is you don't feel like you're growing you you need the feeling of growth you need the feeling of progression you know one level one talent point not one level not 15 levels one talent point and the same thing like that same idea kind of bleeding into the the production of classic i think is not good to to be like okay well let's just put all everything in there at once um i don't think it's the end of the world if they release mc with the updated loot tables i don't think it's the absolute end of the world yeah but i think having the actual content itself not split up more is is a big issue i agree i mean here's the deal like let's say i'm right let's say they let's say let's say they're not doing progressive loot tables or progressive itemization it just is what it is they're running off 1.12 itemization and loot tables that's just that's just all they have okay let's say that's the that's the scenario um how many people are really going to be walking around in full this having dermal out progressively you know two months later whatever it might be that's still content for a lot of people like not everyone is going to be in molten corbis within the first two or three months so still i still think there's a very strong argument to progressively release content even if the gear isn't you know just trivializing everything before i don't want stuff still progressively is it i i still feel the same way mm-hmm yeah i think um we talked about pvp we talked about zg let's talk about zg a little bit more actually i feel like we didn't we didn't sound zg enough um kind of getting into more the specifics of having uh zg out with bwl you have class shoulder enchants which right they're not good for everybody because not every shoulder enchant is um it's designed for a specific role like the warrior shoulder enchant is like a it's like a defense enchant it's for it's for prod warriors right but but generally speaking the shoulder enchants are things that are very good uh there's like the class offset pieces that have been added in it's kind of like i know for paladins it's it's kind of like a meme set like you can do like some fun things within it's kind of random but again it's just another thing that's being introduced in the game that is uh that's essentially a uh it's an alternative way of gearing up your character based on like whatever your play style is i think zg being put in the game originally essentially as like a catch-up mechanic is something to kind of like help bridge the gap for players that are new to the game uh while the game was growing i mean you if you look at like population graphs for world of warcraft it's like this i mean the game was just booming um i think that having zgn with bwl is something that you're immediately infusing bwl with a player base that has access to the enchants has access to offset gear if they want to use that at all and then a blood vine set which is huge for all the casters uh and then of course the world buffs so the world buff is big i mean 10 movement speed which is cool and then 15 all stats which is like 150 of a blessing of kings and it lasts for two hours and it doesn't you don't lose it on death persists through death yeah so that's that's huge like that's actually a big buff for the sake of progression like dire mall it's like okay you die you lost him but with zg it's it's much easier to get because you turn in one heart and everybody gets it and then you have it for two hours it's not like everybody has to specifically go get their buffs for dire mall if you die you die uh but zg the buff is really really strong it's huge uh blood vine set do you want to talk about that stay safe well yeah i was going to say just sort of briefly zg is when casters they start getting a lot of hit rating gear which really did not really exist prior to zg and casters get the blood vine set which they're going to be wearing all the time it looks really stupid that sucks but that's just the way it is it's bis uh it's unfortunate um but yeah casters see it all uh a big power spike was all grew up and like you guys said i think they're having it out when um we're back in the later we're having bwl and zg really at the same time they should not do that they should not do that i think i mean we're just i think the message we're all trying to hammer home with this classic cast is having more content release patches or stages or phases whatever you want to call them anything more than seven whatever that's ideal more things to look forward to more hype events um that's that's what i'm trying to say that's that's how i feel and one thing i missed earlier this is just kind of small but for priests and hunters it's kind of irrelevant it's like the uh the benediction and uh the roc de la quest lines also kind of much later um and that's something that with kazaka i assume it'll probably be grouped and at launch too and it's like these small things like again like small things to look forward to they're all being clumped together and again it's taken away of that feeling of progression taken away those like hype events that that could be there down the line so it's another another one of many examples that we've already discussed right and i think we didn't go into world bosses enough um kind of to reel it back a little bit with world bosses having world bosses in the game and available right from the start means that by the time enough people get level 60 to kill it uh both azur ghost and kazakh will probably be up and so you have a situation where those bosses are just like sitting there waiting to be killed but in like a regular you know gameplay sort of thing like in the in the regular way of playing the game excuse me these two big world bosses are not going to be something that a player is going to come across they're not going to see them it's not like they're going to be like some you know looming figure like man i can't wait till you know somebody kills that guy that just came and killed me it's not like a fel reaver in burning crusade right maybe fel reaver will come up and just like smoke you um but like remember you used to see the ground okay i'm dead it was bad i remember like the worst was whenever they came up and anyway anyway that's a different topic but but with with uh with the world bosses basically as soon as you get a group of people up there that they can go in and they can kill it they can go in and they get a free kill uncontested and uncontested world boss is something that's huge um i think that you could say oh well like it's a reward for those players that rush to 60 uh faster than anybody else okay sure but that that's not what it's about right that's not the whole point of it um that guild those players are going to be able to go in and uh get world bossing that immediately makes their guild stronger and more desirable than any other guild which might be the case anyway if they have a full rate of level 60s first but it takes that it takes that quote advantage that they have and it it makes it even higher so i think that's something else that's not good yeah i agree i think having world bosses out from the launch um it rewards fast levelers and sort of it sort of screws over slow levelers or new players of the game it just sort of solidifies the mess that the top guilds and server have on them i mean this is the unfortunate reality about world bosses most people playing classic wow will never kill a world boss let alone get a piece of gear gear from world boss world bosses will be very tightly controlled for a very long time um good guilds will have them but there's no reason to release them early and and foster that control like the long the longer you you i will the longer you you delay the release of them if they're not there at launch that'll give more people a chance that's how i feel right and again just more high more high point over the the world bosses are released so i think i think that's a big uh i think it's a big point of emphasis that uh we're gonna i know i know that's the i'm gonna keep saying it more hype the the more people are interacting the more people are playing the game the more people are engaged uh the better it is for everybody because like people are playing because they're having fun people want to progress their characters they want to keep doing their thing and if people play like blues is going to make more money like if you if they want to make this about money or whatever and their business sure i understand like this is better i don't know this is it's just better to have more patches well and the issue is i was gonna say i think the issue is it's better the first time around maybe the second time around but i think going back to what stays they've said 15 years down the line i think that's what they're looking at if they do i mean whatever method they stick with they're going to want to adopt it every single time and just template every single time right again first time it's going to add hype second time but like let's say 10 years down the line it just means more overhead costs and like every time you have to launch a new patch you have you know maintenance that's to go into it you have to do some testing you have to ship it out to qa like all the all the basic like steps you have to do you have to invest money in every single stage so i think that's how they're looking at it which is not a good thing like i know i know you know obviously blizzard has their their financial prerogatives but i hope that classic wow is not a discount project you know what i mean yeah well and and i would say that the qa all this like that stuff doesn't even matter if you get it right you get it right and that's not to say that you'll never change anything ever and you know you might have a cycle of class and be like you know what we kind of screwed this up this last time like it would be better if this if this was moved here this was there that's not to say that that shouldn't happen but after the first time it'll get so much easier like if they can do this correctly if they can do this right this is going to be a cash cow for them for 10 years at least like i mean it's they have that if they want to put in expansions people are going to play the expansions there's so much to be done there it would be for them to go in and to screw it up would be a real shame yeah i like i might be kind of like i'm sounding kind of pessimistic or whatever but i think it's it's important to just kind of be honest in whatever there there is something that you feel like it's is a big issue that you you go and you talk about it and you really explain why and instead of i mean i not just throw a pity party but explain why you're throwing a pity party i guess but what you're saying is it's in everyone's best interest for them to get it right they're going to make a lot of money we're going to have a lot of fun yeah um yeah you're like sort of sort of stay safe just occasionally like hello my good are we good okay i was going to say one more thing sort of about the world bosses is i mean if they have like uh you know one month after molten core yeah one month after stage one releases they have like a stage 1.5 or whatever world bosses azergos and kazaker are launched it's sort of like a mini aq opening gates event like you're going to have tons of guilds swarming the spots everyone's going to be there it's a huge server event like it's something we can look forward to same point point point standing more hype events it's going to be badass rather than just having you know if it's there from day one and people have to level to 60 you have like a ragtail like like the server first ragtail guild with full greens going and try to like it's just it's it's not as much of a server event if the fewer people involved there are i think you're right is there anything else you guys want to talk about with stage 2 that's stage 2 pvp rewards bg's bwz g i think we got it all dude i think we did uh the next stage the next stage that they proposed was aq tier 0.5 gear uh sell this content and the emerald dragons the world bosses all in together um one thing i want to mention real quick and i guess i should have said this at the beginning i think that we're technically making an assumption that when they say stage one stage two stage three stage four that they want to put these in as four separate patches because you know they they that's what they've told us right but when we've brought up these concerns right like whether it's on classic cast or on our streams or whatever like nobody's corrected us and said like oh no that's not what we meant by stages right so that's that's why that's why i think that they're that by stages they mean patches essentially just like packaged patches um so anyway back to stage three this is essentially like the 1.9 cluster so right having 0.5 in the dungeon set to if you want to call it that um this was the gear that was put in in patch 1.10 that was an upgrade gear for the tier zero gear if you were valor you could upgrade your gear if you were lightforge you could upgrade your gear for paladins like lightforge turn to soul forge for example um this is something cool because it's an alternative way of gearing up your character uh something that's good for people who are you know more five-man players maybe they do like solo pvp and stuff like that putting in more content for uh for everybody right like you know the the player base as a whole it's not just focused on the high end i think that's great i really like tier zero point five a lot man like like you said for people that maybe aren't huge in guild guild gameplay rating or pre-made stuff like it's actually getting a full set of tier zero point five um is a lot of content it's it's quite a tedious process i think it's a lot of fun anyway yeah and i think uh i actually think that then putting in the tier zero point five gear with a q 40 is not i don't i don't think that's a big deal i don't see that as a problem necessarily because the tier zero point five gear a lot of times uh does get overlooked because it comes out so late in the game that and it still might honestly coming out with a q it'll probably still get overlooked uh but at least you're you're providing something that whenever like the high end gets this there's something else out there that that you can strive to and kind of use to be like hey like you know i'm a five-man player whatever i started playing the game later i can go in and i can like progress my character a little bit doing z g doing uh the tier zero point five question getting into maybe an mc pug at that point in the server getting into like a more casual guild and and you have some some ways that you can keep progressing your character throughout that time so that's something that i really don't have a big problem with i think i think it's good even that they want to put in tier zero point five i do think that if they you know and this is this is the concept of progressive itemization that's playing in here if they put in the if they want to upgrade the pvp rewards later on i think upgrading the pvp rewards could be done at the same time i think they could be done here and it would probably be a good idea as opposed to upgrading them in the next patch because by the time you upgrade them in the next patch it's like it's almost trivial right like it's it's something that's kind of like okay whatever um yeah but this kind of keeps with that same philosophy of an alternative way of gearing up your character like the aq 40 gear is better but for you know you know speaking from the perspective of a paladin of course a rat paladin yeah okay the aq 40 gear is better because it's rat gear but you're going to have better gear coming out of aq 40 as a whole but the pvp gear is more stamina heavy kind of it's better stat allocation for the case of pvp and kind of goes along with that same that same thought that same philosophy so if they do this i think they should also upgrade the pvp gear later on with the same stage as aq 40 but still is content and sorry go ahead and i've been talking for a while i was going to say i think that's the time to do it i was going to ask you in tip so what do you guys think about about the world dragons green dragons before after aq what do you think about that i think it should be before i agree i think before aq i think there should probably be a stage between stage two and three um with like zg world zg green dragons or something don't you think it's it's so intuitive like it's and they're very close together like um during original vanilla i don't understand why you wouldn't put those two together green dragons come before aq with zg allow you to farm up nature is this gear like i i yeah i would put it that way yeah and you might want to like stagger it a little bit like if you because i think whenever the green dragons are put in the server opens up and the dragon spawn i believe i could be wrong on this but i you know i could be misremembering but i think that if they withheld for a few days or whatever so it's like zg launch and then like a week later you put in the dragons or something i think that wouldn't be bad either but uh i i think putting in the dragons with aq 40 then you're taking away the concept of people competing for these world dragons to farm up nature is this gear for their tanks and uh for their soakers for raid you know for for who ran you did 15 people to have like nature is this cap so they can or softcap so they can uh so they can soak the poison bolts i think not having that in which is like a key i would say for the high end guilds it's like a key point of progression uh for them your average guild is not going to be killing world bosses your average guild is not going to have the opportunity even or the average player is not even going to have the opportunity to get a piece of loot from the world dragons but it's a cool experience it's something that exists and it's something that i think is good for the game to have that in beforehand and to increase the value of killing those bosses before aq 40 comes out and farming nature is this gear through other means as opposed to picking up the nature is this gear inside of aq 40 so green dragons moradon um stuff like that i i think that's a big deal i agree actually you want to know something i think i think we're all agreeing too much i have actually changed my mind on all of imagine this imagine this only one content release stage everything is out from the very start and you have molten core and x ramus out at the same time i think that'd be bad ass i've changed my mind yeah and that's the thing i i mean we i said this at the beginning of the podcast like um we all kind of feel the same way about this topic and this is more of uh this is more of us kind of like you know breaking this down and really sharing our opinion and you know while while you know i'd like to bring up other viewpoints and and we've done that a little bit is like well they could be seeing it like this they could be seeing that hey nobody clear the first clear of mc was not until after diremall came out the first time rag died was not until diremall came out so they might be seeing it as like well like you know they might need diremall for the first clear which is i mean i don't know why they would think that but but that's not the case right the same thing for zg i don't think i think nefarion wasn't killed until after zg launched so i think that's you know looking at these other perspectives and stuff i think is very important but um oh yeah i mean you can i i don't want to start an old player versus new player argument but you can go back and wow read and their itemization is just all over the place like they they just had no idea what was going on yeah that what what players in vanilla these days can get out of their play get out of their character with gear and different specs and consumables and world buffs what you can what you can squeeze out of your player the extra damage the extra healing or extra threat per second all of it you can just you can just accomplish so much more and these roadblocks that people um my mic was good are we good hello hello these these these roadblocks um that people faced back in the day are not going to have the same severity or impact um in modern day mm-hmm yeah it's definitely a different time and i see some people in the chat saying you know bring somebody on to disagree and again we normally we do sometimes disagree on some things but with this particular issue there's not it's it's hard like there's not a lot of people that disagree with this and that's and that's kind of the point of what we're doing today and that's why we wanted to talk about it the community i would be willing to bet is is vastly unified in the fact that this these stages are not enough uh they're insufficient everybody i've seen from all all across the spectrum from forums to youtube videos everybody at least believed there should be bare minimum five if not six at the bare minimum stages and um it does negatively affect the game with less stages that's what we that's what we legitimately believe so we want to bring awareness to this issue because fundamentally we do think if the stages stay as they are it would produce a less exciting experience than if there were six seven uh stages that's why we're talking about mm-hmm yeah i guess what we're saying i guess what we're saying is uh we hope that someone from blizzard is watching and listening so um with uh with stage three the we've talked about tier zero point five we talked about you know that's one of our aq launches essentially the 1.9 package uh green dragons that that shouldn't come out at the same time as aq i say aq 40 it's also aq 20 they come out together uh and then also the the silithous content so by that they mean like the aq 40 event and all this stuff that's what i'm assuming they mean by that like a q 40 event and then all the scenario and circle stuff all that stuff being put into the game um is there anything else we want to touch on there before we go on the naks i think we got it yeah i think green dragons need to come out maybe with zoe grub or at least before aq t zero point five is fine with aq i'm fine with that now let's do stage four you guys ready naks out pog naks out naks out uh i think stage four is pretty much just naks patch that was the impression i got when they said naks and scourge invasion i mean that's the that's the 1.11 patch so yeah that's all it says is next ramus raid comma scourge invasion that's it so yeah i think uh i think that's fine i mean i think that's what the naks phase should be i think should probably be just that um talking about pvp gear again the pvp gear gets updated with the naks patch but uh i mean if if they do the upgrades if they if they have the lower version and they upgrade it later on which i think is important because then you're just going to have pvp gear in the game put in with bwl that's you know better than the bw the better than the bwl gear but um i think if they want to upgrade it i think upgrading it with aq is is probably a good idea as opposed to upgrading with naks yeah i agree and they definitely should upgrade it before like so so back in middle i think they upgraded it wasn't and they upgraded in patch 111 right the pvp gear like if they did that there would be next to no incentive to rank period because the gear simply is not good enough to justify rank in some cases there would be but it's just it's much worse but at the same time if you release the pvp gear updated at blackwing layer patch that's also a problem because then the gear is too overpowered for too long so that's why private servers have have kind of messed around with when they update things i think on naks they updated the pvp gear at like z g patch or around there um while releasing the the battlegrounds outlawing so this is a very like contentious issue um that people have been messing around with for a number of years but like basically pvp gear should not be updated when it was in my opinion back in vanilla it should be updated earlier but not too early and that's that's kind of what we're talking about now mm-hmm yeah that's right no changes wait small change small small small small changes a little so i've i've not actually ever rated 40 next ramus um or even step foot in 40 man next ramus i've never played during naks patch in vanilla wow so i think there's unique scourge invasion gear right is that right guys and then there's also there's also gear that's added um to the eastern plague lands uh um argent don bender um a lot of like there's a there i know there's a trinkets really good there's a lot of good gear that's added with that uh not even mentioned the actual gear that drops in next ramus so how how good is the scourge invasion unique event gear how good is that stuff i think that it's it's honestly not that good like if people are people if people have been gearing up this is what this is what i would assume that the the intention is mm-hmm whenever they put in that gear it's like okay people who are new to the game or people who you know they haven't been rating or whatever they at least have some gear that they could put on like you know the the i forgot what it's called exactly but it's like some kind of undead slang chess piece and it's like a ton of attack power versus undead they'll have gear that they could put on that might be specific to nax uh you know good for the rate specific to nax right as opposed to using that gear in bwl or whatever um if you've been rating consistently and you if you're in a guild that is planning on completing nax then you probably have gear better than that anyway but uh the undead the undead slang gear it's good but i don't think it's better than the than the gear that people would have already if they're rating consistently so the real reason to get this scourge invasion gear is so that 15 years later when they've progressed on to classic bfa you can have it in your transmog set exactly yeah basically i just so you can get your transmog and you know your flying mounts and your achievements and all that stuff dude it's great no but yeah i think um i think i think that the the idea for stage four at least what we know of it i think is just fine yeah that sounds good to me so yeah i i think like minimum we would want to see six stages and really i i think the more they they parse since we're not parsed spread the stuff out the better like if they if they wanted to do 11 like it actually was go for it yeah yeah i think uh sorry go ahead but four four is four is just too few that's all i was gonna say it they they should really not do four man yeah i think four is bad so i want to talk about this uh and i made i made my long blizzcon story video where where i talked about the entire story of blizzcon and i talked about this in that video but i thought it'd be fun to kind of bring that in here and we can kind of discuss it and i want to i want to get your guys opinions too uh on on what i'm saying that might be a good idea i don't necessarily think that like my my proposal for phase content release which is at seven which is a lot of like middle ground like like middle ground proposals like well you know if they want to do this like what if they did this right um i don't think it's necessarily the best way to do it but i think it's a way that they could do it that's better than the current proposal um okay so it's going to that and we all feel about this we already talked about this mc and nixie mart on on launch uh i think i think that's something that's uh we all kind of agree on that um right yeah so i said like maybe like a month and a half two months later they should put in the 1.3 patch with like dire mall and the world bosses what do you guys think about putting that when do you guys think they should put that patch in oh man like so i you know we have more of like an upper level player mindset i'm i'm trying to think what percent of people are going to be 60 at the month and a half mark less than i think less than half like for real i think month and a half mark i would say dude freaking nope like it's going to be like five percent of players i'm serious over all players dude yeah so recently uh there was some stats that were released about uh one to 60 play times yeah on even some more um well i was i was looking at this too right i was looking at this too and sorry go ahead yeah it was 11 over 11 days played on a server that a lot of people have played that server before or played vanilla before i mean if we're talking about classic most of the people haven't played classic before you're talking 12 to 13 days minimum played and if we're talking you know if you can only spend you know two hours a three hours a day like the average player can maybe even less than that yeah then we're talking like three four months for most people to hit 60 i would say well i would say that there's a lot of people playing that haven't played before as well like i know that was the case for me like at some point everybody everybody played for their first time like everybody who played on a private server played for the first time now for me like i had played vanilla before but a lot of the people that i played with in my guild hadn't played vanilla before uh there's a i would say a big like a large number of the player base that it's the same thing's going to happen in classic that haven't played vanilla before at all on a private server or in retail so i think uh like okay let's say 12 right let's say there were 12 days played was the average hypothetically and then um 12 days slash played so times 24 hours and then divide that by like three hours a day 96 so that's that's about three months over three months yeah a little bit over so you have to ask yourself let's say you have well let's compare um dire mall as it goes kazakh coming out after 1.5 months or after three months what's worse for the health of classic wow um having and it came out four months initially four months from in a launch and one month from eu lunch so what's worse having your super turbo nerd players that are hitting 60 very early in mc nixie mordon for months having them be a little bit bored for for two months or um having you know the vast majority of the classical player base feel left out of the dire mall launch of the azer ghost launch of the kazakh launch i would rather have a board um one percent player base than a 99 percent player base that feels like they missed out on a big hype event honestly so i i would be in favor of a i i think three months is just fine for dire mall azer ghost kazakh i really do i think that's fine i think 1.5 is too fast mm-hmm sounds like you want lfr dude what do you want exactly right uh well honestly um i mean i i i definitely agree with like the rationale but i think it's dangerous to base decisions based on what the vast majority of players want or like casual players want because i think you make the argument that that's kind of what got us to where we are now um but i do i do think i i do agree that you cannot design a game around you know 0.1 percent of the player base whatnot i would say three months dude three months yes three months yeah three months as it was back in the day basically yeah i mean it's kind of like a middle ground there well so the reason why i said two months is because i thought and like i said i don't think the way that i thought up is the best way to do it or the way to do it i just think it's a way that's better than what they're saying um i said that at the three month mark is whenever they should probably put in the honor system uh and kind of have well i i think that if at the three month mark they put in the honor system and you know if they could upgrade mc loop back then or at that point too then great if they want to have mc loot at launch than it is or it is uh or the upgraded mc loot excuse me but putting that at the three month mark and then putting bwl and the dark interference stuff at the six month mark then you have like a three month window for like a gen one rancor to get grand marshal by the time bwl comes out it's kind of the way that i was thinking about it because i'm actual vanilla and this is only keep in mind actual vanilla lasted i think about 25 months or like 20 24 and a half months before patch 2.0 from launch it was the exact date i i think it was it was early december 2006 and then november 2004 is whenever uh is whenever uh vanilla came out whenever wow came out initially so having like a 24 to 25 month kind of like timeframe to look at like the lifespan of classic i think of a a classic server i think it's a good way of looking at it so that's the that's kind of like the assumption i went with whenever i said maybe going like a month and a half or two months and then at three months putting in the honor system um so this is talking kind of about three at the same time but if let's say dire mall like you guys said let's say dire mall is in at the three month mark do you think that when do you think the honor system would be put in i would do honor system at four months so zero month mc nixie mordon three month dire mall as it goes casik i saw someone say people don't get hyped for dire mall release that is absolutely wrong dire mall release is big it's hype it's being a hundred percent is and then that's it three months and i would do the honor release battlegrounds at probably four months or four and a half months month and a half later at the six month mark bw oil and dark moon fair that's what i would do so far yeah i would do the exact same that's how that's basically how it was i mean yeah i i agree and bw oil initially came out eight months after launch i think that i think going that whole time how do you guys feel about that how do you guys feel about bw oil and dark moon fair coming out eight months after launch instead of six months why why would you bump it back at eight to eight months no no no how how do you guys feel about eight months versus six months uh i would say it's probably too late yeah that's what i would say i'm okay with it i think it's fine but yeah again like i don't i don't see the two months as being too drawn out i think it's fine see so yeah i was looking at it whenever i was thinking about six months for bw oil i was thinking that just kind of calling back on experience the time like i remember people were getting like bored of doing molten core basically they were just people were getting bored like right before bw came out it was one of those things like okay like you know doing this for half a year right i think i think that's kind of the point when people kind of start to mentally deteriorate and they're like okay i'm getting bored and i have nothing to do i think having i think having eight months of mcn is probably is probably too long that's true i agree uh though and i actually agree with you i think eight months is too long i'm in favor but for the keep in mind for the vast majority of the player base it's not eight months of mc anixia it's more like four months or you know five months or because they have to level they're just gonna level slow there there will be guilds that are hard stuck on gar and molten core for three weeks yeah like they're these are you have to think about these people um so yeah i that even that being said i think that a six month bwl is ideal mm-hmm yeah i think uh i mean that's something that you know i struggled with like i remember like we wiped on gar time in vanilla but uh and on the other end like we had trouble with like you know people getting all their gear and then like they didn't just want to like they didn't they would either start raid logging or they would stop raiding all together and then you have to deal with attrition right because people get bored um if if dire mall came out three months after launch if dire mall came out three months after launch and keep in mind three months after launch with no honor system so on private servers people have the honor system and they have pvp gear and they have stuff that they can do beforehand and then so that so they have like they can make their own content for a few months before dire mall comes in uh back in retail vanilla making your own the game was all the content because like people had to learn right the learning process it's still going to be there for a lot of players uh but the resources that increase you know your your the effectiveness of your learning are going to be a lot more um they're asking like what are the top players going to do during these three months right and i know like you know like you said like it's not it's not good to to base the game around the one percent right um but i think there's like a happy medium there like i i think there's an answer go ahead i'll i'll tell you what i do during these three months this is the time if you're if you're in a in an upper end guild you're leveling alts you're leveling this is the perfect time to level alts by the end of this you can have you can have three level 60 you're good to go technically you got by the time bwo is out you if you're in a two server the in a super nerd guild uh you can have three bws split runs if you want like uh that is the perfect time to level alts yeah level a mage farm that's where i don't get gold yeah that's stuff you can do you know for the three months and then you could say honor system at four months instead well i think if you go three and then four months for honor system and then at the six month mark what if you want seven month mark to have three months of the honor system before bwb or maybe you would purposely say you know what you can't get grand marshal before bwb all comes out i honestly like that more i like that more to be honest but you know we're we're just sort of you know just goofing around but i i like that i like going i like going into black and lair without you know 20 freaking melee dps with uh rank 14 weapons i like that i think i think that's more fun it's more of a challenge i think it's it's just better for everyone i think yeah i i do think you're right about the more of the challenge and stuff um going three and then four months so you have an out you have a month of dire maul before the battlegrounds and the honor system is put in yeah i think uh i think i think that would be fine too and then you stay at six months with bwl what i said after bwl in dark moon ferret six months i said that like the seven and a half or eight eight month mark so two months after bwl is when they should put in zg in the emerald dragons i think that in retail vanilla zg came out two months after bwl and i think kind of staying on that same sort of time frame would be would be just fine what do you guys think yeah i think that's perfect i agree a month and a half zg emerald dragons come out um so you're having emerald dragons and zg come out maybe like two fifths of the way through classic waz life cycle i think that's probably fine yeah if you want like two months after bwl so then that would i guess be at like the eighth month eight month eight month mark excuse me and then after that i said a year after launch is whenever aq 40 would be put in aq 40 was put in january of 2006 i believe which would have been uh i guess 14 months so yeah i guess four it was like the beginning so like like 13 13 ish months right 13 ish months uh after launch so if you want it like the 12 month mark and then you put in aq then that gives you more time because you have i don't know i feel kind of rushed i i feel rushed in aq 40 because you have the period of time before the gates actually open and different servers are going to open the gates at different times let me ask you this okay if if there is a server that is just dead set on opening the gates as fast as possible they don't they don't care about mass farming you know uh black carrage crystals the mounts they don't care at all they just want to open the gates and get in as fast as they possibly can what is the fastest you think a server could do that what do you think and they have all the stuff the mats and stuff ready beforehand and we got it all ready to go what what do you think i mean they might be able to do this first week just on first week maybe yeah no definitely you need at least five days right for the supplies to get to sell this so honestly if the server is really motivated and they don't change the supply quantities at all and they don't alter which supplies you get dude you could you could have it in five days if you really want to but yeah i mean realistically it would probably not be till the second week with i mean unless you have 100 everything ready to go day one or day three yeah depends on the server i can totally see some servers like totally just like four months in advance all the top guilds get together okay we know what we're gonna do we know what we need stockpile and yeah i think it's possible so what i'm inclined to say and i'm curious to know what you guys think about this whenever you think you should release a queue i would say whatever whatever that gate opening time gate is if it's a week or two weeks i'd say release it a week or two weeks earlier than you would otherwise release it to accommodate for the time gate does that make sense so you you want people going in a queue to a certain date and then you need to release it two weeks earlier one week earlier six days whatever whatever it might be does that make sense yeah i see you're saying that's probably what i would do that's kind of that's kind of what i was thinking with saying it should be like 12 months after launch because that's like 13 it was about 13 months after launch uh back in retail so like you have like that month because you might have you might have a guild that goes in and says no we're not opening aq 40 we're gonna get 10 people mounts you know what i mean like there might there might be like you know guilds could get together and like you have like two guilds that wait like five weeks they get they get mounts for a total of like 10 people or something you could you could have people like basically holding the server hostage that's something that is possible so that that's why i felt like aq 40 was kind of rushed and uh at least in in my like private server experience because i didn't i didn't i didn't finish aq 40 and i didn't finish nex and i didn't clear nex in in retail vanilla but it was one of those things where it's like okay if you go aq 40 and then six months later is whenever nex comes out because in retail vanilla nex came out in june after aq 40 aq 20 came out in january you account for the time that takes for the the gates to open up whatever it feels like nex comes in super super fast so i i think having like that six month time period is uh i think that's fine but uh it's fine because of the amount of content that you could put in to 1.9 like if they put in the pvp gear update if they put in the uh they put in the tier 0.5 if they put in the upgraded dungeon gear i mean there's there's upgraded dungeon gear they're like i call them the nex blues and it's it's actually the patch before nex where they they start putting them all in but that's more content like that's that's a very like content heavy patch uh potentially so doing that for like six months before nex comes out i think is uh that's i i feel like that's that's plenty of time you could maybe go even longer um how do you guys feel about that yeah i think that's fine and then that leaves six months eight months seven months around there of you know after nex is out that gives people seven months whatever it might be um on nex rams with nex being out and i think i actually think people probably want that i think there's a huge desire for people to have their characters in full t3 and farm you know at tsh and people want there i think there's in the classic community there's a big desire from people to be literal bis and sit on that and pvp with it and afk and iron forge i think that's that's been a lot of people's dreams for a very long time so if you have eight months of nex at the end of classic wow i think that's probably fine if you get bored whatever you wait for you wait for whatever happens next tbc or whatever i think that's fine like i'm fine with that so yeah uh one thing to consider and i kind of want to go back a little bit and talk about this is having the honor system in later um i i we i should have i think we touched on this a little bit but i want to re-emphasize it uh you know whenever we're talking about blizzard saying the honor system come out with bwl i think it's important that the honor system needs to come out you know sooner you know the three or four month mark maybe um as opposed to coming out with bwl and it should come out in its own phase because the longer you wait for the honor system to come out the less desirable pvp is going to be and i i think that's important is that or for them to put out the honor system at a point where like you're not saying like you know what i don't really need the honor gear i there's nothing i really want to get because i'll just raid and do whatever um i think that's an okay mentality to have uh but i think to not have it in a little bit earlier like it was in retail vanilla and say hey you know this is a this is an alternative for me this is something else i can do i don't know that's that's just kind of how i feel about it in general yeah one one thing i guess i kind of glossed over when i i actually would prefer that the honor system comes out maybe just a month or you know six weeks before battlegrounds i think that would be a cool unique experience i hope that's the case so maybe maybe even the honor system and battlegrounds are a bit staggered they should be i think they should be so i think i think that that i mean there's there's everyone everyone thinks of tar mill versus south shore also black rock mountain honor farming yeah i think i think that's awesome i think they should i think they should recreate that uh and and that's how it was in vanilla um yeah yeah i could see it i could see it either way to be honest i could see it either way uh there's also the concept of even staggering out like when each battleground comes out which i don't think they're going to do that uh you know because that's what they did in vanilla right they had the different battlegrounds come out at different times um but i don't know i i don't know which way would be better but i would i would not have a problem with battlegrounds and honor system being put in at the beginning or not at the beginning put in together uh i don't think they should be put in at the beginning yeah i i very strong we think they should not be in at the beginning like i mean we've talked about that a million boys sort of asking why we why we don't think they should i mean having the honor system out early on in vanilla wow it one it trivializes gear or sorry it trivializes well it does trivialize it trivializes um the difficulty of the early raids i mean the second you go in a black i mean this we see us on private servers people go in a blacking layer um with an entire roster of rank 14 male dps i don't think that's good it trivializes the gear and the difficulty of molten core and nixia all these all these uh earlier dungeons and raids um i think that you know we're talking about catering to the majority and not the 1 percent the rankers the hardcore rankers that we might have in chat the hardcore rankers are an extreme minority an extreme minority and they'll be an even smaller minority um in classic wow um i think if you were a new player to classical maybe you haven't played before you haven't played since vanilla wow you played 15 years ago um i think have to worry about leveling finding a guild progressing through molten core um getting gold for epic mount and ranking all at the same time i think that can be very overwhelming and it will just it'll just be another very wide gear gap between new players and players that are able to start farming on or very early on it's just another way that top players will be able just to absolutely just dust new players and i i think that's i mean i don't even think there really needs to be an argument like i'm presenting because it wasn't there in vanilla wow it was not there for the first four months of vanilla wow that's how i think it should stay okay that's how i feel um do uh i think guys i i think we're uh i don't i don't want to keep like talking in circles right uh but i think this is something that uh we all feel really strongly about and that's one more thing i really want to emphasize is that what the way blizzard has proposed it with only four phases of content release is something that is uh just like i said earlier not good for anybody i don't think it's good for blizzard i don't think it's good for the health of the game like i don't think it's good for blizzard financially i don't think it's good for the health of the game i don't think it's good for the player base i i i think that and this is something i you know not to go off on a tangent but you know whenever i talk about it being good for blizzard financially versus being good for for the game. At the end of the day, that's the same thing, and this is something that I think everybody should consider. Whenever something is good, whatever company they are, if a company says, hey, let's make our game as good as possible, let's make it fun, at the end of the day, that takes care of a lot of problems, that keeps a lot of issues from happening. I think, if that's what the focus is, is like, hey, let's do classic write, let's make sure it's fun, let's make sure it's done correctly, then people are going to sub, people are gonna pay to play the game, people wanna do that, so there's no need to think about like all these little things, like stop, stop looking at everything over there, just look at what's right in front of you, and that's the game. So I think that's a big deal, I think that's something that's really important. From here, guys, I kinda want to, I kinda wanna go into Q&A, if you guys have any questions for us, we'll take some questions from the chat, we'll take some questions from Twitter, if you guys wanna tweet at us with hashtag classic cast, we'll look at those tweets, we'll look at some questions from chat. If you guys haven't already subbed to our YouTube channels, if you guys haven't already followed myself or TIPS or stay safe, you guys should go ahead and feel free to do that, if mods, if you guys could post the links to their channels in chat, I would be greatly appreciative of that. And that's the thing, our channels are all focused on classic wow, I mean, that's the thing, like we're playing other games and we play some retail, we're playing other games right now and that's just kind of the nature of it while we're waiting for classic, but at the end of the day, that's what we're all really excited for and what we're all very, very passionate about. So I do appreciate you guys for following, yeah. I was surprised, I actually didn't even know it, it snuck up, this is class cast number 20, man. Like this is, there's been 20 of these things, man, it's actually wild. Yeah, pretty wild, pretty wild, we've had 20 episodes so far. It's been a long time, brother. Yeah, it's been real long. Okay, let me go ahead and load up Twitter here. Do you guys have anything else you guys wanna mention? I do wanna mention one thing real quick. So today is Monday and we started the classic cast today at 4 p.m. Pacific time, 7 p.m. Eastern time and I think 4 p.m. Pacific time, I believe is midnight European time, correct me if I'm wrong, Europeans, but from here on out, I believe we will be doing the class cast at this time bi-weekly as fan or weekly? Yeah, I think we're looking at doing it bi-weekly right now and thanks for mentioning this. We are gonna be doing classic cast every couple of weeks for at least the next few episodes as we kind of see what kind of classic news and information and other stuff that comes up that we think is important to talk about. There's not a whole lot of news right now, really. There's not a whole lot of classic news, but as soon as stuff comes out, then surely we'll ramp it up and maybe go back to a weekly schedule. Doing a Monday nights and posting them on my YouTube channel later on so people can go check out the VODs there. Just to be clear, not twice a week every other week. Yeah, every other week, yeah. Right. Twice a week, too, man. I did see someone say a couple of minutes ago that guilds will not have entire rank 14 rosters or like loaded with rank 14 melee DPS by the time Black Malayer comes out. That is absolutely wrong. Like, that does happen. That does happen. Also put out a tweet earlier, where I kind of mentioned this, right? That there's a growing concern about only four phases of content release. So if you guys agree with this and you might not and that's fine, but if you guys do agree with what we're saying here, you guys can go to my Twitter, twitter.com, slash sfanTV, and if you guys hit it with a like or if you retweet it and just kind of show your support that way, I do think that's something that is, it's very appreciative and everything counts, right? No doubt, no doubt. And I mean, having this discussion is very important because it, I mean, clearly, and this is, you guys can vouch for this, the classic devs are actually very receptive. Like they're watching videos, watching podcasts, they're speaking to content creators, they're reading forums, they're communicating with people. They want to know what we think and having these discussions is in a clear, concise, articulate, sort of non-ragey manner, I think is actually very important. So it is important. If you guys like or retweet something like that, there is a very good chance that they will see that and maybe it'll hit home with them. Absolutely, it's very important. Brian Birmingham, the lead technical guy, like basically the lead guy on classic, wow. He's based, dude. He's really, he's really based. I think he's a really good guy. What are the chances of a classic has all craft crossover episode when we get closer to release? Well, we've done one before, we did one a few weeks before BlizzCon. So I don't know, I can't really, I can't really speak to that, but I think that's something that would be cool. I mean, we would certainly be up for doing that again, whether it was over with them or over here with us. But yeah, that's not something to really get into too much now, but I do appreciate the question, Kalevich. Do you think, this is from Talrick, Talrick asks, and this is in the chat, do you think classic will have seasons like in Diablo that will reset every year or so? Kind of going back to the release timeline, I think going with that original 24, 25 month kind of cycle in terms of the lifespan of a classic server. I think it's best to stick to that. I think doing anything kind of faster than that, if you did it every year, it would kill off the other servers. There's like the succession with fresh, right? The concept of going over and starting fresh and the hype that surrounds it, everybody's rushing to 60 and gearing up and it is a really exciting time. Like the opening of a fresh server is really, really exciting, but I think if they were to open up new classic fresh servers in the middle of the lifespan of like the last set of servers that were created, I think that would be something that's a really bad idea. And I think, I don't understand Diablo so much because I haven't played it before. Do the seasons cause your character to reset completely? I'm pretty sure it's been several years since I've played Diablo. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Okay.   I think that's a lot better than, I think it's a lot better than resetting and forcing people to lose everything they have. Cause they might want to just want to like log on their character and just be like, this is like a trophy. This character, this is like a trophy, this character right here. This is everything that I earned, everything that I accomplished in WoW Classic and I want to keep this in some form or fashion. So... Yeah, I very strongly agree. I think that's one of the strongest appeals that Classico has. I've heard a lot of people say, no, I've never played a private server. I'm just waiting for Classic WoW because, or even before Classico was announced, no, I've never put, I'd never wanted to play a private server because it could all be gone any minute. And if I'm putting time or effort into something, I want it to always be there. And I actually totally understand and respect that. Like we've seen private servers just, poof, just they're just gone, right? And all the hours, all the time, all the effort you put into it, it's just gone. So I think having that, like know a lot of people want to invest time in Classico knowing that that character will always be there. It'll be a trophy, like I guess one sort of sort of said right there. Absolutely. Yeah. Here's a question from Exceptionality who asks, do you think there'll be an overwhelming amount of Warriors in Classic? I think a lot of people roll Warrior at the start, but I think I read a stat. It was something like 16% of Warriors actually make it to level 60. So at the end game, there'll still be a slightly, you know, a decent representation of Warriors, definitely. But I don't think it's going to be like, I don't think everybody that rolls a Warrior is going to stay a Warrior to 60, definitely. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see. This is a good question right here. This is from Locktite. I think this will just be fun to talk about. Do you believe that legacy servers are a retention based project to maintain PC based gamers as Activision seems to be making more of a demographic shift to mobile gaming? If so, how much long longevity do you see in the base three legacy server types? Vanilla, Bernice, Hayden, Rath? I think this is a really interesting thing to talk about. And like we might not be able to go like to ham on it on the podcast. Otherwise we might end up talking for like two hours, two more hours. But I think that, I think it's an interesting thing to think about for sure. If they're trying to have something that is sustainable like a repeatable process that they can do for 10 years, like okay, fresh every two years, fresh or something like that. And then they can kind of focus on like mobile games and whatnot.  That's the way gaming is going in a lot of ways. You know, just the more mobile demographic and stuff. I know it's like really, really big in Asia. So surely like as a company like, I think it's fine to do that. There's nothing wrong to for, there's nothing wrong with making mobile games. Like that thing, making mobile games, there's nothing wrong with that. And as a company, that's probably something they should be doing. What I think they should not be doing, I think just gaming in general, I think companies should not go and neglect the player base of people who are playing on PC or consoles or whatever they did before and not to continue making games for that. For that platform that they built their company on. I think it's bad for them and you can see it with a lot of streamers, right? And it's kind of a different thing, but in a sense it's not, right? Where you grow a channel doing one thing and then you have a really hard time switching and streaming something else or changing to another game. And it's like the big concern for a lot of people that want to make the jump to variety. And I think that, you know, when you change how you started and how you grew, it's very difficult unless you can do it at a really high level to kind of flip the script and go do something else. Yeah, I think probably the, I think it's a little bit less about mobile games, just the nature of game development. The mobile games are involved. I think the reality is that game companies are going, we're not going to see many games that target our demographic. And by our demographic, I mean, sort of the old school legacy style gamer, turbo nerd, up late at night, haven't showered in three days, that demographic. People like us, I think we're not going to get many new games. I think probably the best we have to hope for are re-releases of games we've played in the past. We're talking, you know, Warcraft 3 Reforged. We're talking, I mean, Lord of the Rings has done it. Lord of the Rings Online Reforged, whatever they called it, Old School RuneScape. We're talking World of Warcraft Classic. We're talking EverQuest has done it now. I think companies are trying to move forward and appeal to different, you know, maybe modern demographics will also give us, trying to retain people like us by just re-releasing things we've seen in the past. I don't think they're going to really invest or put time into building new games for us. I think that's probably just the reality. It feels bad, man. Yeah, I think that would be a bad idea.  No problem. So, basically, I've got a lot of thoughts on the subject, but in particular, one of the reasons why Blizzard was so successful, this is actually something that Jon Statz says in the World of Warcraft Diary. Shout out to Jon Statz, by the way. I think he's started printing them and shipping them out. So if you guys pre-ordered that, you might have already gotten it in the mail. I don't know. But one of the things he says, Blizzard's strongest or biggest strength was the fact that they would self publish their own games. And that gave them a tremendous amount of creative liberty in designing World of Warcraft. They could design the game exactly how they wanted it and they didn't have to worry about a publisher coming in and forcing them to add, you know, things that might be more monetarily, you know, feasible or monetarily enticing, but that might take away from the gameplay. The problem now is that Blizzard is no longer a private company Blizzard in 2003, 2004. Blizzard is publicly traded entity, Activision Blizzard, and has the responsibility to all of its shareholders. Because it has the responsibility to these shareholders and because this market cap fluctuates so rapidly from a day-to-day basis, they have to, they are obligated to pursue whatever market trend is most profitable to them. And unfortunately, because mobile gaming is so profitable, you are going to see Activision Blizzard go in that direction. We've already seen it. They acquired King Digital two years ago. That's the company behind Candy Crush, the largest, most successful mobile game of all time. On top of that, you saw with Diablo Immortal, there's a rumor about Warcraft Go. It's supposed to be like a Pokemon Go Warcraft spinoff. And you're gonna see more and more of that from Activision Blizzard, from EA, from Rockstar, from all of these publicly traded entities. So if you want, if you're one of the people that wants an awesome MMORPG, a new game that caters to you, a hardcore PC gamer, personally, I wouldn't be really looking towards these companies. And I would look to more companies that were similar to Blizzard back in 2003, large private companies that have a lot of capital like the Riots, like, I wanna say possibly Valve as well, Valve making games. But you know what, I mean, basically, if you wanna see a company make a really good game targeted at PC gamers, it will not be a publicly traded entity, most likely. It'll be a large private company with a capital and user base to take such a big risk. So back in the day, it was Vivendi Blizzard, right? Before this, before Vivendi. So was Vivendi not publicly traded? Do you have any idea? No, when Vivendi had a big stake in Blizzard, well, Vivendi's European company, I believe, they had a big stake in Blizzard, but I'm not sure if they had it during the WoW days. Like, I wanna say 2007 was Vivendi, but I honestly can't remember. I have no idea. Yeah, I have no idea though, stuff. But kind of back to what you were saying, Stay Safe, about kind of like the companies kind of just, maybe over time, just going more PC and tips you touched on this as well. I think that would be, I just think it would be a bad idea, right? For companies to, when PC gaming is something that's so strong, and I understand like there's a big market for mobile gaming and stuff like that, and I think, not only do I think it's fine, I think they probably should be doing that, but they should also be doing whatever they were already doing. It should be something that's in addition to, not in place of. Well, this is sort of what I speculate. I think there's probably some truth to this. I think that, you know, back in the day, if you wanted to be very successful, the Oblute World Warcraft key. We lost you, lost you. Am I here, are we good? Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think that modern companies are spending less time and effort trying to appeal to turbo nerds that are willing to spend 10 hours a day playing, but have less disposable income. And now they're focusing on people that can play two or three hours a day after work, maybe one hour a day, that still want to be successful, but can't invest as much time, but these people have deeper pockets. So if you look at the time investment, it takes to be a heroic raider today, maybe even a mythic rate, I'm not sure, versus the time it took to be a competitive Nexoramist Raider or a competitive AQ Raider in Vanillawile, it takes way less time to be competitive. It takes way less of a time investment. It's much easier to be successful and casual in retail while than it was back in the day. Also, I think this demographic, they're gainfully employed. They're upper middle class. They're willing to spend money on pet shops and mount shops and character transfers and name changes. I think that's the dem... I really strongly think this, and I'll never know, but this is my speculation. I think that even though WoW subs are way down, I bet WoW is making more money than it ever has. Like, I really think that. I really, really think that. No, they say so much during their earnings. And it's funny you say that. Those people that you're describing say safe, though those middle class, willing to spend money on these games, they are so much better of a consumer and a customer than we are. Like, if you're in here right now, if you're one of 1,200 people watching this right now, you are the worst possible customer for a gaming company or any service provider because you are going to use the maximum, you're gonna use the service the maximum amount possible while paying the least amount possible. Just by virtue of being here, you guys are probably more informed gamers, more informed consumers. You guys probably spend less on pets and stuff like that.  Whereas the guy that's like, oh yeah, I work like seven days a week, I'm like some middle class guy, I'll come in, maybe once a month or something like that. That's the guy you want in your gym because that's the guy paying, but he's not using up your services. And unfortunately, we're the big guy, Chad, that's coming and working out every single day. You know, I would say that I actually don't think that's particularly the case because if you look at it, and this is just kind of like speaking to my YouTube demographics, for example, it's a big audience of people who are 25, it's like 25 to 34. It's a large portion of my audience on the YouTube audience, at least. I would say that I would just venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of that player base that watches me are people that they may be single, they don't have a lot of like extra expenses in their lives, like they're people who, they're old enough to have jobs or to have a source of income, I should say, but they're just looking for something to spend it on, right? That's what I would think. Well yeah, specifically to the demographic, I know what you mean, and yeah, maybe, possibly. But here's an example, I used to work for this SaaS company, this project management software solution company, and our best clients were the ones that would buy our software and never use it because they would get tied in to a two to three year commitment. They would pay for the software every single month, we would do the onboarding program, we would train them, but for laziness or just the inability to change, they would not adopt the software. Those were like the dream customers because basically they wouldn't use our services, they wouldn't call in for customer support, they would literally buy it, shelf it, and then just move on. Whereas the companies that would utilize the software, unfortunately, those were the biggest headaches because they're always playing with it, they're messing around with it, every single day they want this to change, they want that to change. They're complainers. They're complainers. That's what we are, everyone in this chat, us three were complainers, like there's the claim and deny that.  Yeah, exactly.  Yeah, we are, aren't we? Yeah, we are.  Bye, what the?   Who's gonna pay more? Who's gonna give you less of a headache? This group of people or that group of people? And that's why you see these companies navigating towards that group of people, not us. But yeah. I think you're right. That's what I think it is. But you know, they're throwing us a bone. Classic WoW, Bing Bong Bang, Warcraft 3 Reforged, Bing Bong Bang, probably get a D2 Reforged, we got Starcraft Reforged, like they're kind of throwing us bones, right? So, there's just no new games. Yeah, I just hope, man, I hope that, because we all know like, Classic's not gonna be forever, like whatever game is not gonna be forever, so I just hope that the, I just hope that somebody picks it up, right? Whether Blizzard wants to continue it or any of these other big companies want to continue it, or somebody else comes in and really makes a name for themselves. I mean, dude, I think, just examples of good companies, man. Like Path of Exile, I think is legitimately a good company. And I'm probably not gonna play it as my main game, but that's the first time I played a game like that, that style of game like Diablo or whatever.  I had a really good time playing it. And I went and I bought like, I paid, you know, microtransactions, I paid for the stash thing, because if that's like content that I'm consuming, right? If that's a game that I'm playing, I'm spending my time on, like I wanna support that company. So like, I just like bought the extra stash slots. Like it's like buying a bank, basically. Because to me, it's like, okay, I wanna support this company. Like I think that's like a legitimately good company, you know? So, I don't know. We'll see what happens. Game years will rise up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it'll be interesting. Do you have any more questions or anything you guys wanna touch on before we call it a day? Are there any more questions than chat here? Guys, right now, post your most pressing questions. 10 seconds. Yeah, exactly 10 seconds. I got a question, I got a question for chat, actually. If there's any topic you guys want us to discuss in particular, if there's anything you guys would like to see us talk about on the classcast, feel free to let us know, let S-Fan know on stream, let him know on Twitter, let me or stay safe now. I mean, we're open, we're open to suggestions. Yeah, 100%. And we really do appreciate you guys coming in and enjoying the show and everything else that we do. Like I just posted, I did PO Box opening yesterday and I think a lot of people really enjoyed that and I posted that video, I cut it up into a video and I posted that on my YouTube channel recently. So again, if you guys haven't followed us yet, if you guys haven't followed this channel or Stay Safe channel or Tips channel or YouTube channels as well, Subtory YouTube channels as well, all our handles are below our pictures. Let's see, talk about... Last question from Simple, do you want to answer that? No, where's the question? Which one? Not last question, but a quick question from Simple. You guys playing Atlas, do you want to talk about that? Yeah, Atlas was like, I guess just announced or I just heard about it. I don't even know, but I guess it's coming out in a few days, it's by the same people who made ARC. That's another MMO coming out here shortly. I think it's going to be worth kicking around on launch and just kind of seeing what it is.  It might be terrible, but it might be something fun to do. So I think that's something we might try out. So I don't get my hopes up for a lot of MMOs. These days, I just kind of, if it comes out and it's good, great. If it comes out and it's not good, then it's like, well, at least I didn't get my hopes up, you know? Yeah. Yep. So I think, I think that's it. I think we're good for today. Guys, thank you so much for joining us today for Classic Cast, episode number 20. We're working, yeah, number 20, that's right. And we're working on some things. I think eventually we're going to be providing the show in an audio format as well to download our podcast, like an actual podcast. That's something we're going to be doing in the future. I know a lot of people have been asking for that and I'm working on some stuff to kind of get that going. This vlog will be posted on YouTube the next day. If you're watching on YouTube, please feel free to subscribe to my channel, to TIPS channel, to StaySafe channel, and we do more classic talk and just kind of more fun general stuff. I want to start doing extreme highlights and whatnot as well. I'm going to go ahead and continue streaming after this, but we'll see you guys next time. Yeah, thank you for watching, everyone. Have a good day, everyone. Take care. Be, beep, bop.