Good morning everyone, we are the JMeter team. We are a team of six members. We are Shishmita, she is from Kate College, Dhruv Joshi and myself Manje Chaudhary from NIT Rao Kela, Naman and Shekhar from NIT Jamshedpur and Surabhi from NIT Surat. So we are a six team member working on enhancements of JMeter. First we had the introduction of JMeter and we would directly go to the enhancements part. Let's see the enhancements of JMeter. We quite had a struggle to go through all the problems and you know the source code and reading through it and then understanding what are the problems, then understanding that what are the plugins available, what are the solutions already available with us and then finding out that what could be the possible new solutions or problems that any tester or any person wanting to use JMeter would face and then we found out solutions. So first of all it is dynamic bandwidth throttling. We realize that bandwidth would be different for various users who are trying to use an application. So for that we did a bandwidth throttling element and this is a dynamic element because when we are testing based upon the response, the errors, this dynamic bandwidth throttling element dynamically changes the bandwidth and when the error decreases the bandwidth is again raised. So this is one of the enhancements done. The second enhancement is in IP spoofing. We realize that when one uses a JMeter, all the requests they go and they are from one specific IP. But in a real life scenario you understand the geographically people have different locations and different IP address. Therefore, we had an IP spoofing element where the different IPs would be created and these would go under a CSV element and from the CSV element the different IPs would be selected and thus the testing would be from different IPs. Then we have the auto CSV generation element. We understand that when we are testing and when there is a form for some web application, then that form needs data which has to be redundantly put again and again and upon that there has to be a CSV element which has to be built by the tester. To reduce the work of the tester, what we did is that we collected this information from the database and we directly put it into a CSV file and this file is now used with the JMeter such that it makes the work of the tester very easy. The redundant work is removed. Then the fourth element is an auto PCC testing element. This is a very important element and very vast element in our work. This is basically the TPC benchmarking that we already have and for that we realized that there is always a server testing and for this server testing we required that there is a lot of users to be generated and for this the JMeter is a perfect tool to be used but what we require is a testing script, a sampler and all these things were built. We would say it is a preliminary stage. We cannot assert that one could actually get a perfect TPCC testing but well developed upon this it could be done. It is quite done and it could be made to more perfection to make it a perfect TPCC testing tool and then we have other small enhancements we would say. We filtered the results table. We realized that in a results table a tester would like to know that some results are beyond certain parameters but there was nothing to put the parameter into the testing script. So, we did put a GUI to implement that. Then we have a constant increasing timer. This was in the very initial stage when we just learned the code. We first did a small timer element and this was something like a similar to the other timers but this gives it constant ramp up time to the timings of the threads. And then we have an enhanced assertion results. The assertions results table we saw it never had the passing results. After the failing results were shown we added the passing results and some more details about the results. When we used we realized that that was a demerit. So, we enhanced it that way and then for SMTP testing there wasn't a default element. So, we made a default element a small configuration element as all other protocols have as default elements. So, these are the basic enhancements we have in details people speaking about all the enhancements and we also have tests ready with us but as time won't permit therefore we have it with us anybody interested can have it. So, that is also made. Did you create the test data for the PCC and everything? Yes, sir. You did that. What was the size? Sir, for each warehouse about 120 MB of data is generated in the database specified. 120 MB? Yes, sir. For each warehouse? For each warehouse. And then upon the warehouse we are using how much database is already there. So, typically for the large data... I am just talking about warehouse because TPCC is not about warehouse. It's a transaction processing. Yes, sir. For transaction processing it basically emulates a supplier and the supplier is concerned with the number of warehouses. Oh, the warehouse not in the data warehouse. No sir, not data warehouse. It's the standard TPCC. Yes, sir. Exactly. I wish we have gone up to 1 GB size at least. Sir, we have gone up to 3 GB. So, we have created in this GB. 3 GB. Good work, sir. Thank you, sir, for your time for us. And we also thank you, sir, for providing us an environment where we could work. It was not just a learning experience but we have very beautiful experience to know all the people around the world and work with them and learn the various cultures. Thank you very much, sir. We would also take the opportunity to thank our sir, Nagesh sir. He has been very much cooperative and has always given us very beautiful ideas. Thank you. Let's go back and start from the beginning of it. Introducing JMeter. Let's understand that why would we actually require a JMeter? It's a testing tool. Suppose we go down to a very simple application or web application. We would require that the web application is tested with a number of users after development of it. So, when it is a number of users, we cannot have people sitting and then testing our application. It may be a number of hundred or thousand. So, what we do is that we use a JMeter, a testing tool, and it virtually generates users. It virtually creates a one-by-one step-by-step procedure to send requests. And thus, these requests are being processed by the application under use towards the server and this enables us to perform a real-time testing for our application. So, this is about a JMeter that why should we use it? Then let's come upon what is the testing like? A testing basically revolves around three things. User, data, and time. How users, the multiple number of users that we are using for testing, data, it's about the response data that we receive, the data that we feed in, and about the timing, about how we time the request being sent. Now, let's come to what is the performance testing? Let me tell you that JMeter is a performance testing tool basically. And therefore, we test performance by testing these things. Load that is virtually generating lot number of users and thus the load is generated. Then we test for stress. Stress is generated when we remove the resources as then for hardware and software resources, let it be some RAM is decreased, some timings have been decreased, and this enables us to create a stress test. And then we have a scalability testing. Here we scale the device. That is maybe the server, we enhance the hardware and software components such that we would see that up to what level the application can perform when given all kind of other necessary conditions to it. And thus we calculate. What do we calculate? We calculate the response, latency and throughput and so on. These are the metrics. Let's go to a simple test plan. One can see a test plan. It basically shows all the components of a JMeter. At first one can see a thread group, the outermost block. The thread group comprises of all the other things like samplers, configuration elements, post-processors, pre-processors, logic controllers, listeners and so on. So, what are these basically? Samplers are the request. If I want to test a web application I would send HTTP request and these request would be lined under the samplers, HTTP sampler for specific HTTP test. Then we have configuration elements. These configure your data. Like if you have multiple requests, you can have a default element which would make common settings for all the requests. Then we have some logic controllers. We have a logic and depending upon the success of that logic, true evaluation of that logic, some other processes would be taken. Then similarly, post-processors and pre-processors process the data received or the data to be put towards the server. We have listeners, the most important component. This generates graphs and statistical reports. And with this, we can actually analyze that what an application is doing and how we can enhance it. This is basically the performance metrics which are provided by the listeners. Let's go next. We would see some plugins. These plugins basically they have been explored by us only to understand that what is already available as solutions to problems faced by testers. This as being an open source tool, the JMeter, we have a lot of plugins for it. Some plugins being the thread group plugins. If you want to time the threads, so we would require that we would have some thread groups such that we can give our respective timings. So two plugins available for that. And timeline graphs, we realize that the graphs of the JMeter are not very effective. We want better graphs. And for that, we have a lot of plugins for graph and analysis. And thus, now let's come to the enhancement. As I already mentioned the eight enhancements, we would be one by one saying about four of the particular enhancements. Mines is the auto CSV generation. This is basically a CSV file generated automatically. Let me explain you the scenario which was existing before we developed this element. Whenever we need to do a test, we see that for a particular request which has a form in it, we need to fill in data. And suppose we have a lot, big number of users, then for that, we need to put in that many number of, you can say combination of data in the CSV file. And these combinations is then feed it into the JMeter and it's being used. So what is hectic is on a tester's part to manually build such a CSV file. So now we need to curve that. And for that, we have developed this element. This element does what is this? Just go back to the GUI.  And then we mentioned the table and the specific database. And from that particular database, after connections being built, the data is picked up and put into a CSV file. And this CSV file is automatically put into the bin folder of the JMeter, such that JMeter's other scripts can use it. Let's go next. We'll see a CSV already generated. This is an example of the CSV that is generated. And then we see the test plan. Here in a test plan, we have a small element, already present element CSV data config. This element takes the name of the particular CSV file which is taken and the parameters associated from which the data has to be picked. So this when set with one of the particular samplers, you can see a particular sampler which has the username and password as parameters and takes parameters from the particular CSV. Now if we run the test, we get the parameters from CSV and the test is executed based upon the parameters taken. So in the results table, we can see that post data are those data picked up from the specific CSV file and thus this indicates that successfully it has been incorporated. Thank you. Now my friend Shekhar would continue. Good morning to one and all. I'm Shekhar Kaurav and I'll be explaining about bandwidth throttling and dynamic bandwidth throttling in jmeter. Bandwidth throttling is intentional slowing down of internet services. It is often used by internet service providers to control the amount of bandwidth used by the users. So actually what happens in real-world scenario when people access web services, they actually use different type of internet connections and when they are using different type of internet connections, actually using different bandwidths, like if you are using a mobile internet connection, then you are very low bandwidth as compared to the one who is using broadband connection. So if a tester wants to create such a test plan in which he can simulate slower connections, bandwidth throttling is needed. So we have incorporated this bandwidth throttling GUI where the tester can select the used bandwidth throttling and then he can specify the bandwidth that the tester wants to use. For showing the working of bandwidth throttling in jmeter, we have created a sample test plan. Here we have used two thread groups, each having five thread count and loop count of five and one HTTP sampler. So both of the thread groups are having 25 samplers. When we ran the test, first of all, I'll go to the next slide. In the two HTTP request defaults, we have specified one Mbps bandwidth for one of the thread group and one Kbps bandwidth for the next thread group. When we ran the test, here is the result table for thread group 1, thread group 2 and here is the comparison table. We can see that for the first thread group, in the topmost corner, there is written 5 by 10. It means that when the first thread group completed, the five threads of the second thread group were still running. In the latency column, you can see that latency is for the first thread group is around 800 milliseconds to 3,000 milliseconds. While for the same case, for bandwidth of one Kbps, the bandwidth, the latency is around 16,000 milliseconds. So there is a quite difference when we are using this. In the same test plan, we are using two types of thread groups and having different type of bandwidths. Here is the aggregate reports. Here you can also see the difference in throughput. The first thread group is having a throughput of 3.0 requests per second and in terms of Kbps, it is 42.1. While for the second thread group, the bandwidth was of one Kbps, the throughput is 9.1 per minute, which is actually 0.15 requests per second. And in terms of Kbps, it is just 2.1. So we saw that in the same test plan, we can now specify different bandwidths and different thread groups will use different bandwidth. So actually we are able to simulate different variable bandwidth in jmeter. Now I will be explaining about dynamic bandwidth throttling. Dynamic bandwidth throttling is actually a variation of bandwidth at runtime without a manual intervention. Actually, what happens that in situations like server is having too much load or having too many requests that it cannot serve, then it starts dropping the request. So in this situation, dynamic bandwidth throttling can help. Like if the error rate is crossing some threshold value, the bandwidth is sorted and reduced so that the number of requests going to the servers are also reduced in the meantime. And when the servers recover from the error, the bandwidth is again set to the maximum level. So the again full quota of bandwidth is available. So we have incorporated extended the GUI of bandwidth throttling and added the component of dynamic bandwidth throttling in that only. Here also the tester can select the bandwidth throttling part and then he has to specify the minimum applicable bandwidth which is the value below which in any stage of the test plan, the bandwidth will not go below this value and maximum permissible error is 7% which is the threshold value around which the bandwidth will vary. So to show the working of dynamic bandwidth throttling, we have created a test plan where the thread group is one and we have 1000 threads in one thread group. The timeout period is 22 seconds and number of samplers are 11. So in all there are 11,000 samples and we have set the permissible error to 7% applicable bandwidth to one bandwidth and minimum applicable bandwidth to one kVPS. When we ran the test, we got this aggregate report. We will see the actual what we are concerned with. Air percentage throughput and kVPS. In the starting of the test plan, when we ran it, there was 0% error because all the requests were being served and we were getting a throughput of around 82.9 requests per second and in terms of kVPS it was 56.9. But later on as the number of requests increased, the error percentage grew, it was around 20% to 9%. It is for different samplers that we used and along with it the throughput was decreasing. But as we were using dynamic bandwidth throttling, later on the server was recovering from the error and the error was going below 7%. So at the later stages of the test, we saw that the throughput was increasing finally in terms of throughput, the request per second also and in terms of kVPS per second also. We will see this Jmeter log report also. Initially the x-axis is showing the percentage error and the y-axis is showing the bandwidth changes. So initially when the percentage error was around 0%, we were using the maximum bandwidth that was 1 mVPS that we specified. But as the percentage error crossed 7% math, the bandwidth gradually decreased to a minimum of 1 kVPS and it continued from there. For the next part it is from the same test plan. Again when the server recovered from the error and the percentage error was going below 7%, 7, 6 and so on, the bandwidth was again increased to 1 mVPS. So in the same test plan we found that dynamically the bandwidth was changing according to the error rate and hence we implemented dynamic bandwidth throttling in Jmeter. Now I will ask you to continue for IP spoofing. Thank you Shaker for introducing IP spoofing, bandwidth throttling to us. Now I would like to speak about IP spoofing. What is basically IP address spoofing? It's concealing the identity of the user or impersonating another computer system which is actually used in Jmeter testing. In Jmeter when we run a test plan, many times the IP address that goes, even for thousands of users, the same IP address is recorded on the server side. So in case when we have an application which is dependent on the IP address of the user, the test plan by Jmeter fails because thousands of users use the same IP address and hence it doesn't practically suit the scenario. To eliminate this, we used IP spoofing. Let's take an example. Without IP spoofing, we have a load balancing server and there is only one computer generating thousands of users. Only one server of the load balancing server will be used and which doesn't happen in the real world. But when we are using IP spoofing, different IPs are generated and all these different IPs go through different servers as in a distributed manner the test is conducted. In Jmeter we introduced IP spoofing by first we need to provide the IP address of the system, then we need to provide the subnet of the network and then we need to provide the number of IPs to be generated by Jmeter. In Jmeter, the script runs in the back end which allocates the IP address of the system making those the virtual IP addresses and hence the IPs are allotted. This is the GUI for IP spoofing. We have to provide IP address. We have to provide subnet mask and we have to provide number of IPs to be generated. Next. These are the virtual IPs that are created and we can see all these IPs are allocated to the same machine. So when the request goes, these all IPs are utilized on the server side. Here we can see without IP spoofing the request goes to the server side. All of them come from the same local IP addresses and next we see when the IP spoofing is active. All these requests that are recorded on the server side, they are from different IPs that were generated by Jmeter and allocated to the machine. So this is how we run a proper Jmeter IP spoofing test. Thank you. I would like Solbi to continue with the IPCC. Good evening everyone. I am Sudabhi Mohan. So I would like to introduce TPCC. Jmeter is a load testing tool and with the introduction of automating TPCC we have made Jmeter capable of carrying out a preliminary TPCC test. So what is TPCC? TPCC stands for Transaction Processing Council. It basically carries out transaction database and benchmarking and delivers trusted results to the industry. A number of benchmarks are carried out by TPCC, some of which are TPC-APP, TPC-H and TPC-C. So next, why did we include TPCC and not any other? Basically many of the benchmarks that are carried out by TPCC are deprecated. TPCC is currently in use and it is a rather complicated process. Secondly, also many industries go for TPCC testing to showcase their performance in terms of OLTP performance as in how speedy their server is. Also, the actual TPCC testing is rather complicated and a very time taking plus costly affair. A preliminary test would be highly useful as in an industry can test its server with a preliminary TPCC test and see where its server lacks and hence improve it. This is a typical benchmark model. Here we have the benchmarking software installed and on the other hand we have the database. The basic functionality of the benchmarking software would be first to create the concurrent users for transaction against the database and secondly to check the data consistency of the database under test. This is the model for TPCC. TPCC is basically carrying out the emulation of a supplier who wants to sell, manage or distribute its products. So basically the company has n number of warehouses. Each warehouse is approximately 10 districts and each district is serving approximately 3,000 customers. These are all specified in the TPCC document itself and we are following all the standards. These are the nine tables which implement the TPCC schema. They store all the information regarding the orders placed, the history of the customer and the items that the warehouse has of the supplier. These are the transactions. These are the five transactions that describe any order, any processing of a new order of a TPCC schema. Now we come to the TPCC workflow. This is the actual workflow. Firstly as I said these are the five transactions. New order payment, order status delivery and stock level. These five transactions do not take place with equal probability. All have different weightages that are specified in the TPCC document and these weightages are taken care of in our test script also. So firstly the emulated user will select one of the transactions from the menu. Then the input screen will be displayed in which the input parameters for the transaction will have to be specified. This is termed as the key in time for the user. Next the transaction is fired and the response time for the transaction is noted. Next in the output screen the output for the transaction will be displayed. Now from the time that the output parameters is displayed in the screen till the time that the user selects the next transaction is termed as the think time and the loop repeat. This is a typical TPCC workflow that we have emulated in JMeter. Now why did we choose JMeter to automate TPCC? Firstly as we have seen JMeter is already capable of spalling a large number of users to emulate real users interacting with the system under test. So that part is already done in JMeter. Secondly also the transactions that are fired. The response time and the throughput is already being calculated in JMeter. So as we can see a part of the process of entire TPCC test is already there in JMeter. So we thought that we could include the other parts as well and make a complete TPCC preliminary test for JMeter. Now Naman would continue with how we actually carried out the TPCC testing. First of all we created this sampler TPCC sampler which actually creates and starts the transaction. It requires the user to fill in the following parameters the database URL the driver the JDBC driver class the username and password of the corresponding database. The name with which he wants the database to be created and currently we have included this test for MySQL and Oracle database. So we have two options when the user clicks on the create database button when the user clicks on the create database button the nine tables and the different procedures first of all are created and depending on the number of warehouses mentioned the different tables are scaled up for each warehouse about 120 MB of data is generated in the database. When he clicks on the start test button the different transactions are fired which actually carry on the TPCC testing. This is the include controller which is an element of JMeter which allows us to test the nine tables. We have made two test scripts one for testing MySQL and one for Oracle depending on the choice of the database by the user he can include either of the test scripts for his testing. This was our test we conducted with one warehouse you can see all the nine tables have been generated and the corresponding data have been filled up for each warehouse 10 districts have been generated and for each district about 3000 customers have been generated these are the five procedures that have been created. This was our test consisting 33 warehouses. This is a JDBC connection configuration element it basically all the JDBC request that are fired from JMeter it contains a connection configuration so as you can see rather than hard coding the connection values it is taking the value from the sampler that we have created and these are to the JDBC connection configuration. These are the controllers use loop controller basically allows us to take the time or even forever to create infinite loop this is a random order controller which allows the sampling to be random rather than sequence apart from these we were also told to take into care the think time and the keying time which have been taken into consideration as for TPCC standards this is the basic transaction call as we said those five procedures represent the transactions now those transactions need to be fired with the actual parameters this is the basic payment transaction it required 33 parameters different classes have been created in JMeter which actually generate the random values to be passed this is the function helper dialogue which shows all the functions that have been created by us procedure request this is a request that is being generated you can see that the functions that we have passed have been resolved to the proper random values and now these are being fired to the database this is a response that we get from the database for the payment transaction all the values are correct this is the aggregate report it shows that every of the process being carried out as per TPCC standards it only takes into consideration the number of new order transactions per minute the other transactions are just to create traffic so the number of new order transactions is the actual metric TPMC transactions per minute carried out by TPCC this is the transactions per second graph we carried on this test for a time interval of 10 minutes so it shows at what particular moment of time what transactions were thrown this is the aggregate graph it shows the average and the 90th percentile time by 90th percentile time I mean that the at what amount of time the 90% of the samples and the dose transaction have been thrown and this is a response over time graph it shows the different response times for the different transactions that were carried out apart from these there were lot of challenges that were faced with us when we were doing this jmeter testing first of all jmeter is a very complex structure it has more than 5000 classes and reading the source code and even emulating a small change was very difficult apart from that the different challenges we faced for each element was for automatic CSV generation getting the values directly from the database was a problem for dynamic bandwidth throttling any change in runtime to jmeter is not possible because we need to restart the jmeter then the entire source code was seen for it and changes subsequent changes were made to incorporate this IP spoofing just by providing a IP you need to check what all IPs are generated and what IPs can be used for testing that was a challenge and finally for tpcc testing tpcc have specified lot of standards incorporating everything and apart from that creating the test for separate databases was a big challenge now I will like to call Sushmita to provide the conclusion and future reference good afternoon everyone I am Sushmita from Kyve future work regarding to this project can be incorporating other benchmarks suppose like tpce tpch etc into jmeter and automation of scripting test scripting as in user is not possible to test script and jmeter can be do for the tester by the using techniques like webcrawling etc and in the instability of jmeter can be could be work out with some solutions bringing large download efficiency into jmeter and better automatic test results results produced by jmeter via some complex results and going to the conclusion the basic aim of this project can be enhancement of jmeter with some introduction of some additional features the task has been completed by the team successfully and we have made jmeter capable of performing more practical test with the introduction of IP swooping and bandwidth rottling then user instability of the user friendliness of jmeter has been improved with the introduction of automatic csv generation results filtration and finally jmeter has been extended with the introduction of tpcc benchmark testing tools apart from working upon jmeter we also did work upon some educational applications as we all know that we have been sponsored by mhrd and therefore we thought of doing some work from mhrd like these are some teaching aid tools and one can see educational application first of it is just go back first of it is a simple application for small kids there are some randomly generated shapes of different colors so jmeter or our work done sir now we told it to everybody so everybody knows and none of these people know anything about jmeter true sir true sir that is very true including me i do not know jmeter why this work has not been published in the jmeter community and secondly all these four things you talked about at least four are they in the form of a plugin right now they are just merged with the source code they are not as separate plugins any time you do something you have done a lot of work i can see that there is nothing against it but doctor phytox thing has been india has to contribute to open source community and you have failed so we can pass that because we have been studying what is the process of developing it in form of a plugin so i understand now remember i will tell you we can develop it as a plugin there was one for doing something do some tools i do not even remember what ok same promise yes we will put it as a plugin and we will put nothing as happens so far ok and that was being run by one of the mtech people who is getting passed out now so what is your plan you are the people who are non-knowledgeable so mentor is not going to be able to do anything ok the reason i am saying that is ok i have no idea i have no idea if your work is of a quality accepted by the jmeter gurus ok they are the people who can judge you nobody else so be proud and put it up it does not matter if you get hit ok how are we hiding so we do not intend to hide otherwise but the problem being the time was very small we took more than a month to first explore and by the time we finished developing these enhancements we could not make a plugin


Emery, what's our season? Winter. And we are looking for a Meteorologist, what do you see? What do you see? Tell us what the weather's like. Won't you please? Excellent. All right, Mayel is ready to give us the weather report. Now, Mayel pick your picture cards that match today's weather. Our season is winter and we've gone from warm to cold to sunny to cloudy. We're kind of going back and forth. Now, Mayel, what matches the outside weather? Look closely. All right, come pick the cards. I know you can do it and Mayel, I know you can do it right. I know you can. All right. Oh, oh. Now, my friends, when it's all sunny and we pick the sunny card, the sky has to be all what color? Blue. If there's those white fluffy things in the sky with the sun, that's called partly cloudy. Okay, with a little bit of clouds, huh? Out of line. Yes, like I would say our face is the sunshine and if the clouds are coming over, it's partly cloudy. If it's not cloudy, it's sunny all the way. Okay, so we're going to talk about that one. Partly cloudy. Do we agree with that one? Thumbs up if you agree with partly cloudy. I agree with that one. Good job, Mayel. Put your next one in. What is that one where the cloud is blowing? What's that weather? Windy. It's windy in Kansas a lot. I see the trees moving. So thumbs up if you agree with that one. Oh, I see Vivian's thumb up. I see Emery's thumb up. We agree it's windy. What else did you choose? Yes. Did we wear our jackets to school today? Yes. Welcome to channel 20 news. Broadcasting live. Mayel, what's the weather today? It's sunny.  What is he doing? What is he? He's cold. He's cold. No, my friends, can we give Mayel a round of applause? Say thank you, Mayel.


All right. Good afternoon traders and welcome to the AMA event here with Ryan Hansen and Good afternoon traders Ryan has a really interesting the AMA event here with Ryan and sound and he Has worked in capital markets here as you'll see I'll share maybe the link in Link with with you guys He has tremendous experience here So get your questions in and and take a look maybe at this LinkedIn as well We've got a lot of questions for him lined up. We'll get going here so the Just a little bit of background biography with ryan here a well versed executive leader and strategic advisor in crypto derivatives and FX trading And financial technology offering expertise in business development organizational management and communications and quite quite a Deep background here. So here's his LinkedIn. I'll put this into the chat. Like I said And then also his discord if you want to reach out to ryan on discord here Okay, so we'll welcome ryan And let's oh, I'm sorry. Let me get into the risk disclosure just in case here. Sorry And then we'll turn it right over to ryan All book map limited materials information and presentations are for educational purposes And should not be considered specific investment advice nor recommendations risk disclosure trading futures equities and digital currencies Involves the substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. All right, so welcome ryan and How are you doing? I'm doing well. Thanks for that nice intro bruce. I very appreciate it sounded very fancy, but uh, I sure I'm not too Too fancy there. So, uh, yeah, happy to be here and answer everyone's questions Yeah, so this is on youtube as well as On our discord you can ask questions in either So Get started there. Uh, and I'm going to just start off immediately here Uh with ryan and just if you could just give us um I'm very curious on your background like how do you even got started in this? Um, and uh, and what was your first job? to begin with sure Yeah, a great place to start. Um, I was kind of always interested in financial markets stock market, you know, I was younger person and um I had taken a job at like a financial advisory firm So dealing with more like long-term investments planning that kind of thing. Um, and I lived in Iowa, which is Uh, you know, sent for people outside of the united states kind of central very agricultural based state here Uh, and I was on a family trip to chicago Uh, which is where a lot of the futures exchanges Uh, were located at least two of the predominant ones. Um back when they were separate exchanges And one of the family friends that I had from the area I was from was a trader on the chicago mercantile exchange Uh, so I kind of pinged him To see if I could get on the floor when I was there visiting with my family And I was able to so he was local I was able to come in kind of just shadow him for the day and It was when the pits were still fairly vibrant. So, uh, this was you know This show on my age a little here almost 20 years ago Um, and it was the kind of onset of electronic trading in the shift to electronic platforms and kind of what we know today is trading But that hadn't quite taken over just yet. So, uh, there were still pit trading guys that came together Uh, physically at the exchange where maybe you've seen a movie like trading places or something like that where There's these people screaming at each other And so they were still kind of busy at the time and uh, there was a Pit for trading euro dollars, which is like the interest rate product. Uh, that was like the largest pit There and so we were kind of walking around different places. There was the indices pit where s and p 500's nas that contracts were traded My friend here worked in the the meets and then we went upstairs to interest rates. And so, uh, it was it was just Very, you know, younger person very strong impression made on that. So, you know, I was very excited like wanted to come back and kind of Find a way to to get involved in the industry And um, you know being from Iowa there was limited choices. So chicago financial center lots of brokerages here lots of Trading firms kind of the heart of futures trading If not in the country in in the world Iowa not so much. So there was kind of one brokerage firm in the area I was from I went and applied there Ended up getting a job and then relocated to chicago To work at their headquarters and that's kind of where things took off. And so Yeah started my career On a kind of family vacation trip that that led to entering into what I do now Yeah, so so the Yeah, how did it work for the the first job? Like, uh, um, it maybe a little more kind of Background on that and then where that led to I'm just I'm very very curious myself Sure. Uh, so my first job was kind of like a sales job dealing with individual traders So, you know, I would call it was it was for a brokerage firm that had a platform Uh, I know, you know people would sign up for Uh, like a demo account. Um, the this company also had like an educational arm And so there was all sorts of things people would sign up for and generate leads And then I'd call them to see if they wanted to open an account and trade and that kind of thing And so I did well at that and Kind of got a quick promotion to create a sales group at the headquarters Along with a customer service group And did that for a couple years So dealing with not only individual traders, but then some professional traders like cta's and and funds in We had a large introducing broker network So getting a lot more exposure to other people that participated in this kind of ecosystem And then from there built out a business development division. Uh, it was kind of interesting. It was Trying to monetize different platforms And so we had kind of one platform when I started at this company that was their own internal in-house system And my kind of mandate for my business development division was To build out connectivity of their platform. So a platform like bookmark would be a candidate for that And when I left we ended up having like 39 platforms. So I got exposure to a ton of different trading front ends charting front ends Analytics packages and so it was a great experience because I was able to see different tool sets that were Being used by traders in different ways Somewhere like, you know, the point-and-click stuff somewhere more automated building systems And so really rounded out my experience not only on you know, what you're using to Like from an analysis analysis perspective to trade in the markets But also seeing like customer activity and what they were doing kind of with that tool set So it was great from there and then You know, I kind of evolved through futures and FX to run different businesses On the brokerage side for not only futures, but FX trading as well Spent a large portion of my career doing that and Maybe most notably helped create trade of eight, which was a Is a broker recently sold to Ninja trader and I was part of the founding team there They We were able to build a concept around being the first Commission for your futures platform. So that was really cool. It was my first startup experience It was being able to kind of express this new idea that hadn't been done before within the futures space So awesome experience Worked almost three years there and transitioned out And then into the world of crypto. So this was kind of 2017 One of the I guess last bull runs prior to what happened In 2021 with the price of bitcoin going to kind of all-time highs and all the all coin activity and all that So I came into crypto helped build out a crypto derivatives exchange for being able to trade crypto Based futures perpetual swaps as well as using crypto to trade into traditional contracts and then transition from there to Work at a firm which I'm currently at along with working with book map that focuses on trading technology for crypto market, so very fast paced days I still stay in tune with kind of traditional markets through what we do with here at book map Which supports stocks features and crypto But yeah, very intensive within crypto nowadays that is a lot And I mean you really have seen Incredible changes in the industry from when you started to where you are right now So let me get this straight then just as a kind of a recap You first kind of started off in trading through the Your friend that kind of introduced you so that really kind of spurred the interest You saw the pits And then you got into the sale side. Is that correct? Correct, okay And and then from from that side You started to get into all the different platforms And then you also started to do some trading at that point that with futures and and and maybe some some derivatives and then From all of this and the educational Arm as well it started to lead into the business development side that Then along the way it sounds like Just the incredible advances in in the industry here in the technology involved that you started to See some of this started to understand that and started to bring that and advise Different brokerages or are different Institutions on where the trading is going and how how you can help them Yeah, that's correct and to me kind of from my perspective I'd always worked at firms that had their own technology capability so The kind of brokerage service and being able to facilitate trades For customers was kind of hand in hand with the trading platforms on so Yeah, I was That's shaped a lot of my perspective on the markets and kind of what tools are there That's what really stood out for me to to start working with book map was at a broad set of experience across a lot of different Platform sets and kind of when I started working with book map as a very early partner at trade of eight You know, it really stood out like the clientele that used it were passionate extremely passionate The visualization of the heat map and the tool set was very unique And you could see the power kind of right away of what being able to look at the The interface and kind of evaluate markets Looking at liquidity Could do so Yeah, it was great. And then, you know, I have Trade myself in my own personal account So kind of have that perspective as well Not only being like an industry professional quote unquote, but also the trader perspective. So Yeah, it's been a large part of my life in in career trading in these different markets So, I mean is most of your Earlier experience is is with futures or was it futures and fx Futures and effects. Um, so both, uh, uh this and that was spot fx Uh, yeah, so we offered spot along with like fx options and and df's so primarily spot market access But um at the time you could offer out, uh, like options and and df's to Institutional participants. Okay. Okay. Um, so yeah along the way, I mean you saw the the Development and diversification of all sorts of instruments and derivatives. Um Uh, I mean new these are new new products new trading products Also matching that with the technology um, so Yeah, I'm just kind of curious like, um, uh with some of this experience like what was something that um along the way that That was really kind of shocking for you or um, you know, something that it was it was unique Sounds like book map was potentially one of those where You saw that this is unique It's a new unique visualization of looking at the market's unique interface And that and the traders were passionate about the product Um, was there something kind of earlier on some sort of aha moment? Was it the dome? Like was it that when they first started to offer depth of market? Uh and level two Yeah, definitely being able to see that so like, um coming back to like the pits and my kind of first step Onto that trading floor like you could it was almost like a tone in the sound of the crowd That you could sense like a mark a market movement was coming Um, and and so obviously you're seeing all these people doing like, you know, exaggerated hand motions screaming Uh, bid and ask and doing all these things, but there was almost like a qualitative tone and things And like if you're a customer like an individual customer at that time You're placing a phone order that's going through like a broker or maybe a trade desk and then getting to that floor So you're totally removed from that kind of insight, right? Like you're maybe talking about some kind of analysis Fundamental or technical or you're looking at your own chart But you're not really seeing like that color in in kind of the insight That you are there So like certainly when like a depth of market ticket came about and you could see like all the bid and ask And things that were being done there. Uh, that was very revolutionary very powerful Um, that's one of the kind of benefits of like a futures market versus the way the effects market structured And not being able to have that visibility and then like when I saw bookmark you could just see like Uh, kind of like where the liquidity was historically where the large kind of orders were coming in in Seeing an aggressor move you're getting this extra context that You may not see if you're looking at You know a certain charting application that only showed kind of like daily bars or something like that Or you just didn't have that kind of information So to me that was very powerful. It was giving this to like an individual trader where You know institutions had it great like the bank traders the the guys that hedge funds that pay up for These kind of things, you know, that's that's great for them But like it was it was really interesting to see kind of these tool sets that were matriculating down from being accessible only to a limited crowd of of industry professionals to You know anybody who wanted to open an account as an individual so, um Basically, I mean you're kind of outlining, uh more and more transparency into the industry over the years Yep more transparency Products that were you're able to take advantage of a certain market opinion Um, so, you know, it's their kind of early days when you minis were coming Uh kind of into their own with more liquidity And then of course I've seen like the micro products come online as well. So being able to Have things as an individual trader that Uh allow you greater flexibility greater transparency a better shot in the marketplace You know it's been it's been great to observe Yeah, yeah, I I bet. Um, yeah, so um, what I'm just kind of curious like, uh, you know last week we had a um, uh, ask me anything um session with uh, uh Jackson Hunter, uh, who hadn't been has not been trading very long at all Uh, and and then when he started trading there's only two stocks a gamestop and, uh, amc uh, and a very unique way, uh Of you know looking at the markets and reading like just the internet and social media to gain understanding about what might be moving um, uh, I'm just kind of curious like What you're doing with this kind of experience that you have Um, what do you feel about moving forward here? Like, uh, it seems like almost the tail is wagging the dog here Uh, even even Jackson was mentioning that he's now seen Uh institutions following reddit, uh, and uh, uh, you know, they're starting to uh, uh, you know Jump in on that side. So, um Yeah, I'm just kind of wondering what your thoughts on on that that whole robin hood thing and uh, you know, and where If you can maybe outline some sort of science fiction, uh, uh future on that Yeah, it's interesting because, um, you know, maybe seven Eight years ago, um, you know from like, uh, kind of what I was doing as a as a professional in kind of running these companies Um and in incorporating into our products We were looking at different things and so one of the things that came up was like, uh, A twitter, uh, like social media analytics tool Where you could be able to scrape sentiment data Um, based off of, you know, the chatter that was happening in the in these uh, social media platforms and so, um at the time like Like hedge funds, uh, were using buying that data to, you know, make their own Incorporating their own analysis and then there was companies that were turning this into like a product, you know being able to see like Something happened in crude oil, uh, how did that play out through social media and what was affecting sentiment? And then you could, you know overlay that on to whatever else you're looking at.  Uh, it's it's interesting like, you know, when I came into the Uh industry there was a much more clear delineation between kind of the professionals and how they looked at the market in in retail And like the kind of quality of tools like, um, these different events like you mentioned the meme stocks and things like that Like it's it's definitely changed in the last few years. So, uh, yeah, it's been interesting to see that Yeah, yeah, I bet. Um, and uh, I guess I do foresee more of that, uh, in the future as we move forward I think there's a lot of focus on retail traders. So the the tools available the services are only going to get better Um, whether they're like the kind of leader or like, um, through a shift in in kind of like the Power dynamic so to speak. I'm not totally sure I think one of the challenging things that will You know, uh, maybe we're at the start of this Maybe not is a lot of these traders haven't been through like a bear market So they haven't been through the great financial crisis You know, we've had hiccups along the way with like, you know, the election brexit, uh, this recent, um, you know The war in Ukraine, um, these kind of bouts of volatility But there hasn't been the kind of, you know, 2007 to 2009 years So it'll be interesting to see how that that, uh, plays out if we get back to a period where a market's down Or where there's a sustained period of volatility Because during those times it's really challenging, right? Like, um, it's easy to kind of buy the dip when it's a perpetual bull market Or a very strong bull market Harder to do when things are chopping sideways and there's massive like, you know, uh, 100 to 1000 point moves Yeah, as funny you mentioned that that's when I actually, uh, got started trading was around 2007-2008 Uh, and I couldn't believe watching the Dow go up and down like a yo-yo or this and that Yeah, I mean just never seen anything like that and It was it was incredible.  I mean like uh 2008-2009, uh, since then since 2009 it's been nothing but bull uh, and um You know It reminds me very much of kind of the internet bubble, uh period as well the 2001 or you know, uh 2000 Where you buy anything in the 90s and it goes up, you know anything in tech and just oh, I'm a genius Oh, this guy just made, you know, hundreds hundreds of thousands of dollars millions of dollars. Uh, oh, he's so good and uh, you know I'm so great, but then boy, you know, they just get slaughtered And and um Or maybe one kind of uh in yeah one kind of interesting story in that time period I mean there was a lot so like, you know, I would kind of see what clients are doing work with clients all of that um in in these kind of volatile periods and You know that kind of time it was like, uh, a thousand point ranges when in the dow when a thousand points kind of meant something It's different today with kind of where the index is at now, but um, you know, you would see just tremendous Kind of fortunes being made and lost and and kind of having to balance that but you know as an individual trader Uh, one of my clients took uh his account, you know, not not through anything. I did he was purely self-directing Um, but he took it from like, I think it was like eight thousand and in over the next um Like just under two years made like 13 million And so, you know, it's like an awesome story that's obviously uh on one end of the spectrum Of of great success outside success But like those are the kind of things that you know as individual traders we dream about right? Like you want to be the guy who's able to make, you know Generational type wealth or something close to that based off your own kind of entrepreneurial activity from trading And so it was very interesting to to see how people did during that time of high volatility Some people just seemed to be more adept at dealing with the kind of uncertainty in these large movements um in in not being fixed to their opinions and in all that so it really kind of um Pointed out like, you know the kind of tide going out who's winning a bathing suit analogy I guess like who's able to really stick to their principles and if they're good principles be able to kind of make hay in those periods Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean like uh, you know crypto is just just seems like the the the poster boy for for that happening again Um, uh, and I'm just um Yeah, I'm curious on your thoughts on on on the crypto market and Through the evolutions that you've seen here. Uh, I mean, this is something rather unique to see uh a currency such as this and um It obviously seemed I mean, you're the one to ask here the the industries are embracing it Uh, even the CME you know a couple years ago started offering uh a futures contract for it uh governments um for the most part seem to be um They want to come up with their own kind of coin uh Yeah, where where do you foresee this kind of industry going? Yeah, absolutely. It's it's definitely been like, uh, a kind of roller coaster ride. Um, you know, I've been in this since uh late 2017 Um, and so went through kind of the the price hitting almost 20k there Um, and then dropping off dramatically down into the you know, several thousand dollars range and then in rallying hard, uh Kind of end of 2020 in the in the beginning of last year and Yeah, I'd say from like my perspective like I think it's past kind of the point of no return so to speak like There's so many institutions that are embracing this or Like building out businesses around this You know, it's like so many kind of real names respected names from the traditional markets have come in where Like, you know, maybe the beginning of 2020 there was still some kind of thought or risk around You know probably bitcoin like going to zero type thing and I I think that those Days are kind of gone now. It's it's like here to stay So what does it look like going forward hard to say like there's so many new ideas that come online and kind of pop up fade away just because the industry is still emerging ideas are easy to bring online and kind of test quickly fail quickly or succeed and see ramp up that it's hard to predict the future, but um, yeah, I'd say like the maybe bringing this back to like how it Can be used by individuals like there's tremendous Kind of outside success stories by people that are just kind of regular people that have been either early on within crypto or just decided to take the risk in Dive in and they understood Either what they were doing or you know, maybe got a little lucky But you know, they took the market risk of coming in investing and so it's kind of evolving from this You know idea of more of like a penny stock mentality looking for only kind of like, you know, the smaller cap coins or You know by low and in sell when it pops type thing to more of like a real trading environment So you see more instruments coming on like options and options exchanges Being able to do kind of more sophisticated strategies All those things which is very good. You know, you want to see the market mature In part of that is how the kind of trading instruments Exist how they can operate to have traders of institutionally and retail participate in different ways Yeah, yeah, yeah It's going to be a really Interesting story to see how this unfolds. Sam is asking. What do you think are the main? challenges for mainstream crypto adoption Um, I think like the kind of ux needs to be a little bit better in some cases. So like coming on and You know, just onboarding in has gotten Kind of good with some of the exchange Uh Changes that are out there Like if you weighed in as far as like the defi world, there's still a lot to be desired Um, just for making it kind of easier to do I also think like at a maybe higher level like the ability to have better regulatory clarity Uh, it would be tremendous for unlocking how Some of the kind of larger financial institutions and Maybe more investment at the institutional level plays out You know, these are large entities that maybe don't want to take a risk Definitely don't want to take a risk of misstepping and getting smacked down by a regulator And so places like the u.s. Where Some things are not clearly defined Holds back more participation. So, um, I think as that happens like, you know, you'll see things more legitimized Certainly some of the names that come in from like large asset managers or banks or You know, just the kind of prominent traders in the space Like traditional markets that enter into crypto that adds legitimacy You see things like the central banks, uh, even like the federal reserve talking about a Digital dollar digital currency like those are things that are helping to push Different areas of the crypto space forward Yeah, yeah agreed and and just You know, so there there you go, sam. I mean just kind of a You know small small list of some things to to to look for I believe um, I mean that just I was so curious to see how this might play out um, and two two examples, uh, you know, one is china Uh, when they do not support it anymore. Uh, it's illegal So that hurts, uh, and uh, you know, it it it makes sense. I mean like with a kind of more autocratic, uh, type of Government structure that you know, this is going to be um, uh, a possible threat, uh to their own currency and and and their own ways of like, you know, potentially uh Using that currency like the uh, yuan um the um So that's one, uh angle and the other angle though, um, you know from from the us of Well, it's kind of similar in that sense like everything's dollar based. I mean it's petro dollars. It's you know commodity dollars how How might this kind of affect that these very kind of traditional ways of of doing doing business? Uh, sure. So I mean, I guess it comes down to like an argument is is bitcoin really a replacement for a dollar Probably not like it's uh, probably a different use case, right? So things like being able to store serve as a store of value uh, and You know being a hard asset that cannot be inflated um are probably the ways that uh, that that goes in parallel. So Coming in to replace a currency Um is one our I guess side of the coin, but the use case of of doing something else with it is Is probably the place it goes and gets real traction Yeah, I mean that's interesting because like that's what everyone's kind of wondering about like what is the use case here? Uh, and um You know right now it's just speculation I mean, yeah, certainly there's some level of speculation, but like um having like the ability to have a store of value That's not uh, like non sovereign and uh cannot be inflated Especially in this kind of hot topic of uh inflationary period that may be coming. Um is coming uh Is kind of the Where does this thing serve? Is it like a digital gold or you know, are you acting like it'll be a replacement for the dollar? So those are the kind of conversations that are had in the the crypto community for sure. Yeah. Yeah um, let's see another question here. Um, uh Sam's also asking about concerns with government clamping down due to potential tax evasion avoidance and traceability Uh, certainly, I mean like there's always that concern, right? Like the the government wants to make sure they get paid uh that there's uh the Kind of ability not to do that or any kind of other nefarious activities So, you know, this one is I think Somewhat valid, but like, you know what crypto and you can see on blockchains is Uh out there. So like You have the same risks associated with dollars, right? Like you can evade taxes with dollars. I'm not sure that it's easier to do with crypto Um, necessarily and you can go in in most Cryptocurrencies you can track and see and where things are going and then more easy fashion than you can with like cash dollars. So the Uh, you know what the industry calls flood? Um for your uncertainty doubt of of You know this being used for money laundering or heightened tax evasion um Probably not as big of a concern as as it gets portrayed sometimes in media outlets Yeah, yeah, okay um, yeah, it makes sense. So, I mean, uh, what you've seen though, um, and what you're you're adding to it is onboarding more and more, uh, institutions or People that are interested in developing for crypto Absolutely, particularly around the trading of it. So, um, you know the infrastructure that was kind of put in place in as far as like gen one Um, kind of activity was very peer-to-peer based uh, the the technology that exchanges have used or like earlier Exchanges use very kind of primitive, uh, to what we would know in traditional markets. So Being able to kind of raise the bar For the robustness of trading technology solutions is one thing that allows, you know, more scalable things So like everybody hates when the crypto exchange goes down in high power High periods of volatility, right?  Everybody hates that no matter what asset class they're trading. So um, yeah, that's one kind of area being able to build in um, some of the back end like non-sexy stuff that, uh, allows for Like a broker or a bank to be able to offer this out in a more easy fashion Which kind of enhances that mainstream adoption is another thing. So, uh, People that deal in stocks today or effects or futures, whatever their business is And want to be able to offer crypto to those clients in the same manner Have to check certain boxes and have this kind of fit within their Infrastructure a certain way. So we definitely help people with that as as well um, which kind of broadens out the accessibility for a greater audience Yeah, yeah, I mean it it it is interesting in in comparing it to fx spot fx Which, you know, I traded for a while And it is just so opaque You know, it's over the counter via Who knows what they're doing with it? Basically, um, is it straight through processing? Is it is it, uh, You know through a the bigger bank or are they taking the other side of the trade or doing a little bit of both? The it's you know, um, what are your thoughts on how the crypto exchanges are dealing with it? with offering Full depth of market Transactions in volume and and more transparency into What they're doing Yeah, it's kind of interesting from like a market structure perspective because it's this blend of lit exchanges with OTC markets and it's global. So it's not just one region or jurisdiction. It's across the world And trading 24 7 so kind of unique in that respect it borrows some elements from fx some from like a stock futures market um, and what you see on exchanges is um, you know, sometimes the Like a tighter bit ass spread but less depth And you can trade in the OTC market at Larger sizes for kind of better prices than you'd be able to if you hit multiple levels Within a lit order book. So it really depends on what the participants are trying to do I think like this the market right now is prioritizes liquidity over Sometimes the best price execution. So being able to transact at the quantities you need to Seems to be kind of the the order number one Uh in the world and obviously a platform like bookmark. We're able to see uh liquidity on all of the Lit lit venues is a big advantageous thing for that and particularly with the multi book Feature that we have which aggregates liquidity across multiple exchanges really powerful tool to say Uh, well, you know, I'm looking at coinbase coinbase is only a fraction of the market, right? Being able to see this more holistic view is very powerful to say well This is an interesting liquidity level on the single venue Does it check out against what i'm seeing across, you know 80 of the market or something like that Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's interesting stuff. Um, you know, I'm curious I kind of uh, uh, Mentioned it before to you but like any sort of kind of aha moments, um, that you know really kind of changed you Maybe in not just for Uh trading here, but just also, um, maybe from the business side for example, like, you know, I've heard the story where with the cme. I think it was Was it I might have been the s and p where they said, you know, we want to um now have futures product for the s and p and Uh, or I don't know. Maybe it was an interest rate.  I mean, they just went from commodities into just about everything. Uh after that Uh, and that is a big moment. Uh in the industry. Have you seen anything like that? Maybe with crypto or recent years? that does kind of like like changed your your view over um overall view Um, I'd say like maybe coming back to like the cme for a second like definitely like The what I was trying to advocate for my own kind of thoughts on what would be valuable for a retail marketplace Along with what we were hearing from our own customers at the brokerages. I worked with was the need for like a smaller size contract, right? So Um e-minis were getting large. They had already been split down. So they're even before there was an e-mini There was the large s and p Uh, and they cut that down by what was it five or ten? Into the e-mini contract, but the e-mini with where the notional value was at was very large So, you know, is that 100 k 150 k 200 k? Uh, you know large risk for an individual trader Uh, that may be trading with limited funds And so we were voicing to the cme that you know, there was definitely an opportunity for A smaller size contract that was being Let's say like if if futures was competitive to stocks like people are applying into the spiders, right? It's sp y and the cues and all those products that were ETFs Uh, that and they may not want to come in and trade this E-mini at the size that it was so there was uh kind of this idea of a smaller size Like can you shrink this down and you know went on for kind of several years We would voice this and yeah, I think on the business side. They would always kind of uh, say, okay Thank you for the suggestions that things will run up the pipe. Yeah, we're hearing this from others Uh, and it just didn't happen and so when they were able to bring on the micros I think that was extremely successful product launch for them because they were Delivering something that's valuable to an audience that that definitely needed it and it also widened the pie, right? So people who Uh, may have been gun shy at trading a larger e-mini contract Come in and trade like a micro sized Vehicle and limit your risk or enter into positions execute strategies in a different way Uh, more fine-tuned way for the individuals. So those kind of, uh Innovations have been uh good to see and and certainly where we voiced Our opinion is is going to brokers or on Like the platforms I've worked with it's been great to kind of serve as an advocate for others for that Yeah, it makes really good sense. Um, that you know, we come across a lot of uh, you know stocks traders using book map Um, but they're not trading stocks. Uh, they're they're trading options and the reason being and there are a lot of younger guys Uh, and the reason is very simple. They don't have 25 000 dollars in a stock account So they're going to trade options instead, which they can do Uh, now, uh, you can do the same with these, uh, these micro products for futures and don't have to deal with all this kind of You know, uh, derivative, uh Of the options to kind of You know, make it a little bit muddier there Yeah, for sure Yep, yeah, I mean and one of the things that um, just to you know, if if Those listening here aren't aren't aware of like a something interesting that that that book map did put a book map plug in here Um, but it but it is really interesting and very very useful to look at for example the s and p e many Uh in in the interface or or look at that market, uh, and and look at the liquidity, etc Uh, but then trade, uh off of that chart But the trade is routed to uh the micro product The reason being is that the liquidity in those micro products are kind of like the sp y right now I mean, they're just heavily arbitraged and and hedged and the liquidity doesn't look um as kind of insightful Um So I I imagine that well, hopefully, uh, that will that will change and we'll see maybe the Maybe the the one that is trading more or By more people not more volume, but uh, uh more Individuals might be the micro product Maybe one other kind of thought that uh, like Transitioning from like futures comparing them to kind of crypto, uh, is is the You know thought of a 24 7 marketplace which crypto is and what that means and on the positive side of the ledger for traders Uh, you're able to go and um, you know express your idea at any point in time that you want to and you can Uh, you know trade around the clock if you want. That's uh, obviously some downside there There's challenges as a business to operate within Uh, kind of continuous market Uh, not closing environment Uh, but what it does is uh compared to traditional markets is you don't have that closed and that kind of gap risk where Obviously like a recent event with crude oil and um, it's spiking up to uh, I think 130 Uh, a couple weeks ago when it opened on sunday, uh, you just don't see that as uh within crypto So it's trading all the time. Um, and you know the traditional markets shutting down Um for kind of maintenance or shutting down on weekends. I think maybe looking forward to the future that could change Hmm And I guess it's all they're going to be blockchain technology basically Um, whether it's on the blockchain or not May not matter. It's the kind of concept. I guess of like this market that you know, why does it need to close? um And so certainly something global like foreign currencies Fits in that whether like a stock market or commodities do as well. It'll be interesting to see Uh, but certainly like at times of great volatility like just kind of going back to the brokerage days to see Uh, these kind of risk events happen where Uh, something traded up to a limit or spiked down and open where it closed Somewhere different, you know, uh almost two days Uh prior and um, you know, those are uh big challenging times, right? Right. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, it it it, um Reminds me of the the swissie. Um Years ago when they were pegged to the euro Uh, and then decided not to And that Basically the the risk was it it a huge uh forex broker was uh Or several I think went bankrupt. They just They were on the hook, uh and uh Couldn't couldn't handle um the the price movements Yep, yeah, that was uh, I lived through that one.  You're still gonna need to be able to operate in that and you know in some cases where it's dull Um, you know, there could be like things of market manipulation So it certainly opens up to other challenges to deal with Uh, but what you don't have is this kind of like gap risk, right where something Uh closes uh on friday and then opens up sunday night Uh and the price level has changed because something with the market has changed significantly Right, right. Um any any thoughts on nfts and and where this might be going? Well, they're just kind of self-correct I mean it's just getting kind of you know nutty Yeah, I to me it's um Some of it I like I I guess I understand the concept in in kind of what it means like i'm not a huge physical art person so Like a lot of music but like you know paintings or Whatever is is not I don't have a tremendous amount of appreciation for kind of that like what makes uh A monnaie worth hundreds of millions of dollars or something. So I don't understand totally Kind of where some of these things have gone with uh the really large nft sales But I think the concept of like having things be digital art that's uh rarity Is is valid and it's here to stay so um, yeah, it's it's interesting like I don't deal in that world Really because everything we're dealing with is uh, you know fungible or Not technically fungible, but like uh bitcoin or derivatives on bitcoin or something like that and not these unique kind of Assets so We have clients that deal on them and have like, you know built businesses around it. It's Awesome to see from like a Maybe like a startup perspective some of these venues that have built Businesses that are worth in the billions, you know, they're raising evaluations that are just eye watering Uh coming from like the tradition world perspective Uh and being able to build that business in a quick amount of time So awesome for those entrepreneurs that are out there doing that A tremendous amount of creativity and uh investment that's going into that space So I'm sure it's going to evolve and kind of shake out here in the next few years Yeah, yeah, I mean do you foresee the same thing? I guess with uh some of these crypto exchanges like right now There's just so many and you see maybe consolidation on the horizon Yeah, there'll absolutely be a consolidation. Um, you kind of seen that happen in like the down periods of the bear markets That'll that'll happen like it's Just bound to the amount of competition that's out there But it also spurs a lot of uh that competition spurs innovation, right? And that's one of the things that's been great to see within crypto is that it moves very fast because there is A low barrier to entry relative to other Like the traditional markets and you know when somebody's on your heels, you got to do something or they take you over So, you know, finance went from not being a thing in Uh beginning of 2017, I believe to being the largest change like eight months later Um awesome for them like FTX Um, and I know some of those guys there, uh, you know built a Multi-billion-dollar business in the span of a couple years Um, so I think that's great in when you look at the other markets that are There's less competition. You don't get that same dynamic, right? so like CME kind of owns certain parts of the futures contract world and There's been times where other exchanges have listed similar products Um and create a little bit of competition, but in a lot of Uh, I guess cases they'd be like considered de facto monopoly, right? And so when you're in that position, you don't really need to do things differently You know, you can and if there's a business case to do it, you could do it, but you know, you want to come in and Apply a policy of like charging the market data fees Which is tremendously unpopular with all us individual traders, right? Uh, when they used to give it away for free, you can kind of do that because there's no other game in town, right? Insane with like contract listings like if you don't want to list a micro because you think it's a competitive disadvantage to your e-mini contract And you know, you drag your feet on it. And so I think that's what's great about One of the things that's great about crypto is the competition The ability to come in and spin up ideas quickly that challenge the leaders in the space at the time and Yeah, it it's great for the people that participate in the ecosystem the kind of Uh individual traders is one of them, you know, you you got your choice to go Uh and kind of spend your your coins your tokens however you want Do whatever trades you want that serves you best Yeah, yeah, that's uh, that makes really really good sense. Uh, that uh, yeah the the forefront right now or the the front line there, uh is This space and they're trying to see what sticks Whereas, uh, you know seeing me boy, they can kind of do whatever they want If I drag their feet on there Those micro products for years. There was an interesting graphic. I I saw at one point. It was like, um Probably able to spend like five six years who the kind of leading exchange By volume was uh within crypto and it was like a different name each each year over that span I can't remember exactly which names it was but um, you know Some names that like have kind of like faded away now like the changes are kind of either Gone or or you know, they're just dormant because the volumes are so low Uh, so it's it it was kind of this representation that You know, if a newcomer comes on board and it does something interesting Like finance was the first one to do the crypto to crypto pairs and uh, all of that somebody who comes on enlist options product like dare, but um, you know and has built this tremendous business around that like, uh, you're able to come in and Make a great business for yourself if you're that business owner if you're a trader It's fantastic because there's more products new things to do It gets better and better and you know, you're the beneficiary of that Yeah, yeah um, let's see. Yeah, we're almost down to an hour here. So, uh, I before Leaving I did want to ask you this question. Um, because of your, uh experience in in the industry here um, some of the, um Trader stories, uh, kind of some of the craziest, uh, trader stories, uh, that you've Like remembered or seen Uh unfold here and some of the characters behind them like just, uh Does something come to mind? Uh, and please enlighten us here Uh, yeah, I mean like definitely like the uh, the trader that, uh made that much money was Was great. I've also seen like traders lose a comparable amount of money very quickly. Uh, unfortunately, so um Those are crazy. You know, we've had Uh interesting client interactions over the years You know, there was a guy that issued like threats to the trade desk because he was getting blown out Uh, you know, we had to have like security and I think the police come to the lobby of our building Uh type stuff. So yeah, it's it's been interesting like traders Uh come in many different shapes and sizes, right? Um, so you're dealing with some people that like, um, you know, the the gentleman who made that that, um 13 million like He was an interesting individual in that, um, like I was the only person at the firm that he wanted to talk to and he was trading tremendous size so like The size where like your firm's, uh risk manager and In the president of the company want to speak to that person He didn't want to speak to anybody because you had like kind of a paranoia That somebody was watching his stuff and I would explain to him like like You're trading like in the notionals like tens of millions to hundreds of millions of dollars like It's a substantial positions that you're swinging around and and like this is just kind of normal business practice And and that gentleman was like very paranoid and so it kind of catered him because he obviously was a tremendous customer He traded a lot But he wanted like a single point of contact And you deal with other people that are, um You know very like type a You know, just like kind of like former floor trader guys that would uh Uh, you know, maybe want to get into a bar fight over a trade or something like that So, yeah, there's been a bunch of interesting clients Business partners along the way for sure trading just seems to you know, it's a active kind of sport Your investing emotions along with your capital And so it seems to draw Best worst out of people draw a lot of Strong convicted Actions and behaviors Yeah, yeah for sure.  We couldn't be more diverse But you you still are passionate about trading and and about wanting to make money etc And that's enough to have in common so yeah, I well kind of from my experience it um the the Desire to make money is is on the boilerplate right like everybody comes to the market for that But like not getting too far into the psychology of it But uh, there's definitely the ones that are not in it for that as the primary goal They may say that they're in it for like the action, right? Yeah, they're in it to put it down and take risk and express something within themselves that is Fulfilling like a desire and that desire isn't always making money. So yeah, we would have I mean You know some interactions where it was like you could tell that person just Turn the platform off stop, you know doing what it is what you're doing because like you're You're like not benefiting yourself. You're doing destructive actions and like it was almost like an addiction It is an addiction for some client traders, right? Like they they need that Activity that kind of dopamine hit or whatever and and so it's it's it's been interesting to observe that You're almost like a as a broker Or you know interacting with a white swath of traders almost like a armchair psychologist in some cases Yeah, yeah, that leads nicely into sam's question here about what kind of personality traits are required. Do you think? for successful traders yeah, I mean like I've seen a lot of different people be successful in different ways.  I'd love to have been, you know, Michael Jordan Uh, unfortunately, I did not have that The jump the uh, you know, about four inches shorter My hands are much smaller. Like I can't play the basketball game the same way, right? And like trying to do so would just not be successful So traders really need to understand kind of that like what they have to work with And finding their edge within that and so some of the elements I think Do blend themselves to a higher probability of success would be like being balanced like seeking balance Uh, you cannot allow yourself to get too high or too low because it just puts you at risk of Having whatever your bad behaviors are exhibit themselves So finding a way in in, you know, there's multiple things to do that like, you know, mindfulness practice, um, journaling, uh, you know different things, uh, but You know On a personality spectrum, some people are going to be more, uh, you know Greater deviations on emotional spectrum But if you can intentionally try and find balance, that's one for sure And then really just adhering to kind of good trading principles And and that's there's probably a few different things under that topic Yeah, yeah, it's a tough tough, um, question to answer Uh, and this is I mean the answer that you hear, um, all the time, uh Uh, and it you know, um, it makes a good sense. Uh, uh, Alec is uh, saying the same thing Uh, the different personalities you see in the trading room here, uh, in our discord room, uh, between like Scott Polsini and Tom B Uh, says it all. I mean, it couldn't be they couldn't be different more different, you know Very diverging, but you can find success And I think that's one of the important things to do and like always what I found helpful my own trading is like There's an endless stream of opportunities in almost like a three-dimensional shape within markets Like you can find different trades like you don't have to Approach the market in the same way that the person next to you is it may find success Like you really need to find your own kind of do your own homework know yourself and find your own path Yeah, yeah Yeah, that's uh, sounds great. I mean, uh, that might be a good one here to to end it on unless Is there anything else that you want to uh, uh, any parting thoughts you have, uh, ryan? I think that's it. Um, yeah, happy to Jump back on excuse me is Cough in there. Um happy to Jump back on in the future, but Yeah, I definitely enjoyed it today Yeah, no, thanks a lot me too. Um, uh, really good stuff and uh, love to uh, pick your mind here, uh, on You're kind of the other side, uh, you know seen like the industry side and um, you know, uh, how that kind of fits into Um, you know the the the retail side and and getting some insights into that Um, uh, really really unique and and really interesting. So, uh, Yeah, we'll we'll do it again. Maybe maybe one final thing like just uh Drop out there. This kind of came to mind the other day like, um Working like in the capacity is a kind of you know, industry professional You get to see both sides of the equation, right? So you see everybody's trades what they're doing, uh, as a broker and that stuff. So you know with the kind of Advent of social media and the proliferation of crypto twitter and reddit and this and that like you certainly get the sense that All these other people are so successful in doing all these great things and it's kind of like You know, if you're not doing those things or you're in a losing period like what's wrong with me or you know Why can't I do that? Like I'd encourage those traders like don't feel that way Like I'm sure everybody knows this, but maybe it's a good reminder like Things aren't always as they seem and sometimes, you know I would see the people that would be the influencer types that would have accounts with us that are promoting something on Social media and what was actually happening in their own accounts was either nothing or the exact opposite So like don't feel bad like again, you got to kind of know yourself find that balance look more inward and Uh, don't do that because I see like a lot of younger traders that will Kind of look at other people and they're looking outwards to the guys that are have big followings on twitter and stuff and like Trying to find that success. We all as individual traders want to find that success But you know, don't get too caught up in that focus on the process what you're doing Finding the elements of success for yourself Yeah, that's uh, that's excellent excellent advice. Uh, so um, uh, yeah, um Let's we'll do we'll line up another one. Uh with you ryan really really great stuff And uh, I mean, I think we're just kind of touching the the tip of the iceberg here I know there's a lot more depth behind this So, uh, uh, really enjoyed it. Thank you very much ryan Absolutely. Take care bruce. Okay. All right. Take care. Bye. Bye