You are well acquainted with these measuring instruments. The panel meter and the ammeter section of the PSM-6 are used to measure current. The voltmeter section of the PSM-6 measures voltage, and the ohmeter section measures resistance. These meters are intended for day-to-day use in common electronic circuits. They serve this purpose very well, but they are not precision instruments. In most circuits, the components have a wide tolerance, so there is no need of measuring exact values of current, voltage, and resistance. For instance, when we are measuring this 15,000 ohm resistor, we'll be satisfied with any reading between 12,000 and 18,000 ohms. This one measures 14,000, and that is very good. But there are many situations where precision measurements are necessary. At times, it is necessary to measure values of voltage, current, resistance, power, inductance, capacitance, and frequency to an accuracy of one-tenth of one percent. Such precision instruments normally make use of a special circuit which we call a bridge circuit. In this lesson, you will learn the relationship of current, voltage, and resistance in such a bridge circuit, as well as some of its applications. Let's see how a bridge circuit is constructed. For the sake of clarity, we will start with this simple series circuit and gradually build it up until it becomes a resistive bridge circuit. Here we have a 20 ohm resistor in series with a 25 ohm resistor. This dropping resistor reduces the voltage. It is not part of our bridge circuit. You already know that a series circuit is a voltage divider. The voltage is distributed according to the ohmic value of the resistors. Now I'm going to take a similar series circuit and connect it in parallel with this one. Now we have two series circuits in parallel with each other. Each circuit is a parallel branch. Let's measure the voltages. I'll set the meter to DC volts, the range switch to 10, and we will read the zero to 10 DC scale. Here we have 2.2 volts across the 20 ohm resistor and 3 volts across the 25 ohm resistor. In branch 2, we have a 15 ohm fixed resistor and a viable resistor which is set to about 19 ohms. We have the same voltage across both branches, and this voltage divides between these resistors. Then we must have 2.2 volts across the 15 ohm resistor and 3 volts across the 19 ohm resistor. Let's measure these voltages and be sure. Here we have 2.2 volts and here we have 3 volts. So Ohm's law is still proving correct. Since we have 2.2 volts across resistor A and 2.2 volts across resistor C, points 1 and 2 must be at the same potential. Let's verify that with the voltmeter. We measure from point 1 to point 2 and we get a zero indication. Since we have no difference in potential, we should be able to place a conductor between points 1 and 2 and have no current through the conductor. I'll use this galvanometer to determine if that is true. This galvanometer makes a very sensitive detector. Any difference in potential between points 1 and 2 will cause current through the meter. There is just a little current. I'll adjust this rheostat and bring it back to zero. The circuit is now a resistive bridge and since points 1 and 2 are at the same potential, we have a balanced condition. Voltage A is the same as voltage C and voltage B is the same as voltage D. In this condition, we call this a balanced bridge. Notice that the bridge is composed of 2 branches and the detector circuit divides the branches into 2 legs each. Legs A and B form branch 1. Leg C and D form branch 2. If we change the resistance of any of these resistors, we will unbalance the bridge and upset the ratios. Watch the meter as I verify the rheostat. As D increases, point 1 becomes positive with respect to point 2 and current flows through the meter from right to left. By decreasing D, we can bring the circuit back to balance and unbalance it in the opposite direction. Now point 2 is more positive than point 1 and current flows from left to right. Notice that with a single control, we can cause current through the meter in either direction and we can vary the quantity of current. This feature of the bridge circuit makes it extremely valuable in many applications. One main purpose of such a circuit is to measure precise values of resistance. With a resistive bridge circuit, we can measure resistance values that are accurate to one-tenth of one percent. Let's examine the circuit again to see how this is possible. Voltage A is exactly the same as voltage C. We proved that in two ways. We measured the voltages and we have no current through the meter. This action also proves that voltage B is exactly the same as voltage D. This means that we have an exact ratio between voltages A, B, C and D. This ratio is A over B equals C over D. It is not necessary that we know these voltages. If there is zero current through the detector, this ratio is always true. What does this have to do with resistance? We have a direct relationship between the resistance and the voltage. The voltage which appears across a resistor is directly proportional to the resistance. This means that in a balanced bridge, we have exactly the same ratio for the resistance as we have for the voltage. With this ratio, when we know the value of any three resistors, it is a simple matter to calculate the value of the fourth resistor. Don't allow yourself to become confused when you see these resistors numbered other than with our A, B, C, D designations. Regardless of what the resistors are called, our ratios of A, B, C, D will hold true. Just remember these positions. The resistance in this position divided by this one is equal to this value divided by this value. When measuring a resistor, we may insert the unknown resistor in any position. In most cases, it is placed in the bridge with the variable resistor. The variable resistor is then adjusted until we have zero current through the meter. Now, our ratios are correct. The variable resistor generally has a calibrated dial, so we will know the value of three resistors. We simply substitute these values into the equation and solve for the unknown quantity. Now, let's remove this galvanometer and use a motor as a detector. On this trainer, we have replaced the galvanometer with this motor. Suppose that this motor is a motor used to correct the trajectory of a missile. When the missile is on course, the bridge is balanced and the motor does not turn. Any deviation from the proper course will unbalance the bridge and cause the motor to turn. Of course, in one direction causes the motor to turn clockwise to correct the course. Often the opposite direction causes the motor to turn counterclockwise to correct the course. Slightly off-balance causes the motor to turn slow. A greater off-balance causes the motor to turn faster. Bridge circuits will be encountered in space vehicles, in automatic pilots, in antenna positioning circuits, in ground control approach radar, and in any other system which requires a highly sensitive control circuit. The resistive bridges that we have been discussing are commonly called wheatstone bridges. The next time you see a wheatstone bridge, it will probably look like this. The circuit is exactly the same as those we used previously. We have simply eliminated sections which gives the schematic a more compact appearance. Remember that the ratio is determined by the position of the resistors. In this case, we have R1 over R2 is equal to R3 over R4. This is the same as the previous ratio using the letters A, B, C, D. Here are some very important points that you must remember about the bridge circuit. It is widely used for both precision measurements and control devices. When balanced, points 1 and 2 are at the same potential and the detector has zero current. Also in a balanced condition, A over B is equal to C over D. And this ratio is true for both voltage and resistance. When out of balance, one viable resistor can control both the direction of current and the quantity of current through the detector. So far, you have studied series circuits and parallel circuits. In your next lesson, you will study series parallel circuits. This will be a combination of series and parallel arrangements in the same circuit. A review of both series and parallel circuits is highly recommended before your next lesson.


Thank you all for being here. I just want to make a few comments then you're going to hear from Secretary McDonnell and Secretary Dabbin and then we'll take questions on topic from the podium and I'll take any off topic questions if there are any off to the side here So when I was running for governor I traveled around the state and I met with citizens met with businesses to hear what they wanted to see from their government I wanted to hear about the issues they saw so that when I became governor I was ready to tackle the challenges so that we could build a more responsive government that worked for everybody One of the criticisms I heard was around permit backlogs And long wait times that people had encountered with DEP So when I became governor I tasked DEP with looking at ways to reduce backlogs and reduce wait times in a responsible fashion so that we could meet the ambitious goals of the permit decision guarantee while still providing Robust environmental protections for our citizens To get at the solution we had to first identify the problem and the problem to me was clear For the last ten years our legislature and prior administrations had cut the department drastically Even as that department had been given drastically new responsibilities Just in the last ten years even while the Marcello shale industry was growing and beginning beginning to create economic opportunity for the Commonwealth DEP staff had been reduced by 43 percent This meant that a huge new piece of work was being placed on a significantly fewer smaller number of staff The legislature and prior administrations were attempting to cut the department while asking that to do more and to do its work more quickly Now when I was in business I never would have tried this kind of gimmick because it really doesn't work You can't cut staff and then ask them to do twice the work in half the time You cannot cut your way to greater efficiency If you're all if all all you're doing is cutting the number of people that do the same amount of work And you don't have to be in business to know that that doesn't work anywhere So prior administrations and the legislature put the department in a no-win situation And then heaped blame on the department when they couldn't make this impossible situation work So we all know what this led to Hundreds of days to get simple development permits Thousands of permits sitting in backlogs and permit reviewers with workloads. They could never meet This kind of thinking doesn't make any sense and it hasn't made sense. It doesn't make sense for our industries It doesn't make sense for the environment. It doesn't make sense for the people of Pennsylvania who have a Constitutional right to clean air and pure water. So when I became governor, I knew we had to improve the permitting process So instead of forcing cuts or sanctions on them as prior administrations had done I listened to the department about what their needs were I Asked how we could responsibly reduce permit timeframes and backlogs without Risking the protection of our environment and I tasked Secretary McDonald and his staff with finding new strategies To cut down on wait times and backlogs while still doing the critical work of protecting our environment and this approach has worked Secretary McDonald implemented a number of changes to the permit review process that he piloted with the Southwest Regional office and the results in that office have been remarkable Through a series of common sense steps. This pilot has helped DEP reduce wait times and backlogs we've seen a 220 days 220 days Reduction in wait times for some common development permits We've seen the number of overdue applications for well permits under review reduced from almost 300 to around 30 permits We've seen drastic reductions in the number of permits awaiting review DEP has made this reduction possible in a number of ways first by auditing the performance of the Southwest District office so it could get a sense of where the greatest needs are It did this by rotating pending permits to regions with the capacity to review additional applications It reallocated positions within the office of oil and gas management By targeting new hires in key permit review areas and it did this by providing permit reviewers with additional training to Standardize permit review processes While this pilot was ongoing DEP has also worked to attack their department-wide backlog Head on by devoting staff time and by elevating permit reviews And since the summer of 2017 we've been able to achieve an over 6,000 permit reduction in the department-wide backlog This progress has been unparalleled in DEP's history and it has been felt throughout the Commonwealth We did it by applying a common-sense approach to the problem And that is rather than by punishing the very people were asking to do this critical work We're actually giving them the help they need While we've seen drastic reductions in wait times and backlogs We still have more work to do to meet the goals of the permit decision guarantee So in the coming year we'll be applying the lessons We've learned in our pilot program in the Southwest to the rest of the state so that those incredible results can be replicated elsewhere And we still will also be taking a number of additional steps that will help us cut down on backlogs and wait times Among those steps we're going to expand our e permitting system to include a number of key development permits Reducing the time spent trading paper between the DEP and the industry We're going to create new analytics program that helps managers track progress on open permit applications Allowing them to know how long permits have been in the system By releasing new review processes and registration practices for key development product permits So that we can clarify what is needed to complete an application and make it easier to apply for these permits And supporting common-sense legislation that will bring the permit process in line with the industry It is actually engaged with such as extending permit terms Allowing for well flexibility and allowing multi-well pad permitting These steps will help us meet our broader goals by making it much easier to track permits As they move through our system while making it much simpler to apply for and to use these permits While these steps are incredibly important We also know that we have a staffing issue at the department after years of misguided cuts that we must work to remedy And that's why in this year's budget. I am proud to announce that I will be proposing and fighting for funding for an additional 35 positions at DEP so that we can begin to rebuild the department after a decade of cuts This is a step that hasn't been taken in a long time and frankly. It's long overdue We must turn the page on a decade of funding cuts and staff losses that led to the problems And that begins with bringing people back to do this incredibly important work I believe that with these changes in place and through the expansion of the successful permitting pilot program We can drastically reduce permit time frames and eliminate the backlogs And we believe that these changes will help DEP to meet the goals of the permit decision guarantee by the end of 2018 while keeping in place strong protections for the environment Our approach has been incredibly successful already We've proven that through targeted investment and better management practices We can make the permitting process work better for everyone for every interest And we've taken a smart approach rather than the misguided and backwards approach that has been taken in Harrisburg in this town for decades We do not need staff cuts at DEP and we don't need to attack the people who are actually doing the work We've tried all that and it has only led to giant backlogs and long wait times and not a better environment What this process needs and what we've proven works are common-sense solutions that actually help the department work better We'll continue to make progress and make this process more efficient for everybody involved So I want to thank secretary McDonald there you are For your leadership on this issue and for your work in helping to make DEP work smarter Through a stronger and more efficient permitting process We can protect our God given natural resources while strengthening our economy and now to talk about this further I'd like to introduce secretary Patrick McComber Secretary Thank You governor Wolf Honored to stand here today with governor Wolf to describe a core commitment of governor government that works That is seeing a problem and working through the hard challenges to address it fully The announcement marks the culmination of nearly a year of work at the department That began with a challenge from the governor to analyze DEP's permitting program from the ground up and to recommend Steps that could be taken to improve our processes and performance without compromising Enforcement of critical environmental protections that are the department's mission and duty to the residents of Pennsylvania At the outset of the process, we knew that if we analyze the problem honestly and transparently We could develop meaningful changes that translate into measurable improvements in our processes and our performance In non-technical terms an approved permit is a mutually agreed upon commitment between an applicant and the common Wealth that outlines highly specific terms the in highly specific terms the expectations guidelines and obligations associated with a permitted activity To give you a visual reference one permit can be multiple banker boxes of forms maps charts and data The department receives and reviews over 30,000 permit applications in a given year as Governor Wolf said we at DEP need to be efficient diligent and comprehensive in our review And we need to take advantage of the most current technology in order to help reduce the time it takes It takes us to take final action on applications at DEP We have instituted initiatives that will make meaningful change that the governor is looking for We focused our improvements both internally and externally Internally we started with the backlog We audited all of the permits in our centralized electronic system known as e-facts and Discovered an unreasonable number of permits that were not tracked all the way through to completion This can create confusion about where in the process permits stand permit application stand all told since the summer of 2017 we've corrected and made current our internal permit tracking system while concurrent concurrently Reducing the active perm pending permit applications The result is a status change in more than 6,000 permit applications and a material reduction in pending permit applications But we have to improve how we handle the permit applications that remain in our system with more coming in every week So we audited our processes and have reorganized to ensure resources are being used efficiently specifically we're restructuring our oil and gas management permitting across Permitting programs across three district offices Williamsport Pittsburgh and Meadville that review and issue well and surface permits With a statewide management structure. We will equalize the permit review workload and improve permit review consistency Many of you have heard from legislators and industry applicants about concerns with willing gas permits under review at our Southwest regional office We look closely and seriously at that complaint and agreed that there were significant issues I think applicants are already seeing the results of our work with that office Erosion and sediment control general permits, which are key development permits have been taking more than 300 days to process on average We filled important vacancies in the review chain and Implemented a pilot project that improved and clarified the process I'm pleased to say that we've reduced the average wait time for those permit reviews to 85 days We're trying to accomplish several expectations with this initiative Maintain our adherence to protecting public health public health in the environment Maximize our efficiency and focus on consistency and forget predictability across the Commonwealth It is important to note that the proposition of expedient permit review relies heavily on the receipt of a high quality product or application coming in So on the external side we are focused on helping applicants improve the quality of their submissions and clarify the requirements Contained in the regulations through clear concise and well-organized permit applications To help clarify what is needed in a permit application. We've developed several new and revised guidance documents We just published the final technical guidance on comprehensive environmental assessments for large-scale projects and our evaluating comments We've received on a draft technical guidance document for water quality certification process for interstate gas transmission pipeline projects I can't overemphasize the value of technology in this initiative DP has been handcuffed by a lack of resources to keep up technologically with the very industries that we regulate But thanks to Governor Wolf's mandates for efficiency. We've been able to modernize Significantly e-permitting has already been shown to reduce staff time and oil and gas staff anticipate a 30 percent decrease in permit Review times once their permit applications are moved into an electronic format later this year In the end our goal is a strong permit that holds the applicant accountable Not just for the quality of the permit But through our inspection and compliance processes for implementation of permit obligations Governor Wolf sets a high bar for all agencies and we will continue to accept his challenge by pursuing new initiatives and policies Which allow the department to fulfill that its mission more efficiently and effectively? I also want to thank the governor for recognizing that we need additional resources in order to do this essential job All of us at DEP thank the governor for his commitment to strengthening our agency and helping us rebuild after a decade of cuts That only led to larger backlogs and longer rate wait times His commitment to investing in additional staff for the department across all programs Shows that he recognizes the importance of what DEP does and he is committed to helping us to protect the environment of our Commonwealth While also making sure we're able to process permit applications based on their merit in a timely manner I must end by praising the staff at the Department of Environmental Protection who have embraced this initiative They have an unrelenting commitment to producing a permit review process that is efficient effective and most importantly Environmentally protective so with that I'll close and I'll turn it over to Secretary Dennis Davin from Department of Community and Economic Development for some comments Thank you. Good afternoon. Thank you Governor Wolf and Secretary McDonald for sharing this welcome news Since entering office Governor Wolf has dedicated himself to creating a government that works for Pennsylvania and what we're recognizing today is just one example The initiatives implemented at the Department of Environmental Protection at the governor's request and under Secretary McDonald's leadership Will undoubtedly have positive impacts for Pennsylvania's economy while demonstrating that the economy and Environment do not have to be at odds. I Command Patrick and his team for everything. They've already accomplished including reducing their permit backlog restructuring their oil and gas programs and reforming operations to streamline permit reviews From an economic development perspective these efforts will strengthen communities by empowering businesses Which create jobs and grow low grows local economies across the conma wall at the same time The permitting process preserves the environmental protection so vital to our collective future Governor Wolf's leadership has enabled us to strike that balance between aggressive economic development and job creation and firm commitment to our responsibility to the environment We have an unparalleled wealth of natural resources in Pennsylvania and the administration is dedicated to protecting these resources The streamlined review process allows for thorough reviews that preserve our environment while at the same time promise hope for jobs in stronger communities Reduced backlog time will allow businesses to navigate the permitting process Much more efficiently and this will increase our ability to attract and retain business across the Commonwealth instilling confidence That we can cut through the red tape and issue permits in a timely manner In fact DEP's pilot programs and innovative management strategies have already reduced time frames and backlogs in the oil and gas sector Consistent review processes and trusted timelines for permits through the permit decision guarantee more jobs for Pennsylvania So I applaud both Governor Wolf and DEP as they continue to pave the way for successful businesses and communities while ensuring That we remain good stewards of the environment We're excited to celebrate what has been accomplished so far and are even more excited to see what's coming next by increasing E-permitting activities improving analytics simplifying registration processes and hiring talented employees the Wolf administration will continue to protect our environment and Strengthen our economy in Pennsylvania. Thank you Thank you Secretary McDonald and thank you Secretary Davin now. We would be happy to answer any questions on topic Yes Yeah, I will give the general answer I'm going to turn to Patrick for the specifics, but the general answer is this whole thing is is an attempt to say we we want to protect our environment and The way you do that is not by dragging your feet It is not by making people really angry on the industry side With the time it takes to get permits We want them to live up to strict environmental regulations and our responsibility is if we make we want them to do that We've got to make sure that we do our job in getting their permits on a responsible timely and consistent basis We cannot do that if we continue to ravage the the department and reduce their workforce So this is an attempt to actually strengthen our ability to oversee The environment while at the same time doing what we promised we would do With those who want to do business in Pennsylvania Patrick. Do you want to talk more specifically? Sure, I the thing I'd point out is we've In particular with the budget cuts that we've had over the last 10 years to the general fund All of our programs are funded in different ways and in particular our water programs Are very reliant upon the general fund so when we talk about a lot of these development permits for example The water program is really what we're talking about and that's where we've seen these cuts So Receiving these 35 positions will allow us to start building our capacity back up What's that? Not not exclusively in the water program We have some within the air program some within our waste program as well But but most of them are water related. Yes Well, we what we're doing is taking the control technique guidelines that the federal government developed developed and We've brought that conceptually to our air quality technical advisory committee Looking forward to bring the those regulations in the interim for for new sites. We do have the draft General permit 5 and 5a that we've released and we'll be looking to finalize here later this quarter Yeah, but Patrick maybe you want to talk Sure, I think we're coming close on the drinking water fee package in particular, which is critical for us Given both the importance of drinking water for public health but also the importance of Making sure we're meeting our state and federal obligations We have some additional fee packages that we've been looking at again within our water quality area our air quality area and within the oil and gas area, which is The that staff is a hundred percent reliant on our permit application fees I'm not sure the timing of that that's something we can follow back up with It will be about two and a half million dollars Yes Yes Above our cost to carry us any other questions Okay, thank you very much. I'll take off topic questions over here


Mr. Jise, I know you're working with travel nations before and including the Heela River Indian community in the southern part of my district. Can you discuss what else Congress should be considering to make sure that travel communities can get the best wireless services possible? Thank you Congressman Holler and for the question and it was an honor to serve Heela River for the years in which I did that. What it did give me an awareness of was just how difficult the challenge is of bridging the divide in our tribal communities. What Congress can do is what you did, you know, promote the opportunity for tribal windows when Spectra becomes available, make certain that there's sufficient time for those tribal communities to apply for that window. So we appreciate your leadership on that work. But as Congress looks at spectrum opportunities, it needs to recognize the sovereignty of our tribal nations and that sovereignty means that they should have some input into the destiny of the wireless spectrum that runs over their lands. So that's sort of what the tribal window created and as we move forward on all spectrum bands, we think that's a good policy for the FCC to look through. In addition, the FCC can look at tribal bidding credits and how to reform those to better utilize them as well as disaggregation of spectrum license areas so that tribal communities can build the networks on their lands where a provider has the has the area but not the will to build. So I look forward to working with your office on these issues. Public knowledge is an advocate for our tribal communities to make certain that they have affordable access because as you know, they are some of the least served communities in the country.


Hello there. Hey, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? Hey, you know, it's Thursday. We're getting closer to you again. Yes, we are.  I don't know how well you can hear me. I don't know if it's both directions. I've been having issues. Let me try something. Thanks for the heads up. Does that make it any better? I wonder. Well, it's still a little crackly. I literally have a new microphone in my. Tab browser. Complete purchase. Yes. Good idea. I switch to a different mic in the past has worked better. Actually, that's a little bit better. Hey, Josh. We were just debugging microphone issues. Amy said she's having zoom. Hello everyone. Hey. Yeah, I don't, I don't know about you all, but, um, Google Meet has completely stopped working for me this week. Well, that's not ideal. How has it stopped working? Doesn't recognize my devices on alternate calls. Sometimes it doesn't recognize the cameras. Sometimes it doesn't recognize the mic. I had a recent interesting. Where all audio was lagged by 30 seconds. That's helpful. Yeah. So this is. Yeah, I mean. The, um, I've not experienced that before. So I don't even know where to, how to start troubleshooting that for you. I don't know. I've noticed the various platforms seem to cyclically have problems. Computers out of their work. Yeah. Stevens here. Well, there's the little elf. Who lives behind the keyboard. I thought that was you. Oh, wow. Steven, do you fix the patch releases already? I was going to say you brought you fix everything. Great. I'm here all week. Um, we're, we're almost through it. Um, Anago is weird. It's such a weird tool to use for release engineering. 5,000 lines of bash or something. Well, we're glad you were able to. Yay. Happy to be here. Haven't seen your faces in a bit. And sadly, we will not be able to give each other votes next week. Oh, I was like, never mind, never mind. Yeah, there's this big event happening. I don't know if you know about it. Yeah. That's what I was like, wait, no, I like, literally just came rolled off my tongue. And that's what I was like, never mind. I like the at sign behind you. Um, but I, can you space the artwork out a little bit? It's kind of weird. That was my lazy moving tactics of, Oh, there's still nails in the wall. And I have to get these things off the floor. So smart. That's pretty smart. Yeah. Those will not be there permanently. That was. Yeah. Yeah. I will. Two years later. Yeah. I was going to say, I will say work in my garage after we've moved two years, it still hasn't been hung up. Yeah. Right. Right on the other side of my desk or something like 40 artworks awaiting framing. And I have this eight foot trestle table set up with framing materials that have been sitting there for two years now. Same. We have that downstairs as well. Like. New business idea. Somebody just comes in your home. Does it all for you. Frames that hangs it up. And then they leave like little magical fairies in the night. I pay for that. Yeah. I want the. I say they don't do it in the middle of the night, but that exists. It's just very expensive. Oh, really? Yeah. I want, I want the, the person who will attend your zoom call for you. Yes. Is a service I would pay many dollars. I honestly, like I've been, I've been thinking about that as well. Like, hey, like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Why don't we break up the Kubernetes meetings and y'all go to this one and then like, we all collaborate on what just happened kind of thing. Yeah. That's really it. Yeah. Carolyn's got a good point. They have to actually do your action items too, because otherwise like the sitting in the meeting is actually the easiest part. Yeah. Josh. You can get signed up for all kinds of crazy stuff if they don't actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I was representing you, I'd be like, yeah, Paris will do that. Yeah. Yeah. I ended up president of a club once because I didn't attend the right meeting. Like, wait, did you not know about the club at all? Like what happened? I know what the club, I was a member. I was a member. Okay. And I missed the meeting while they were electing a new president. Oh. Wow. And then one of my friends messaged me and said congratulations. Congratulations for what? It's usually that means you don't get it. Like you get extra work, but you never get a free title. Right. Yep. That's awesome. Josh, you're running the show today, by the way. Okay. Well, then let's get started. Um, we just have the usual suspects here or do we have. No, it looks like the usual suspects. How do you everybody? Um, the, um, um, I'll put your name on there if it's not already. Um, the, um, so, um, okay. Um, let's see. Uh, uh, uh, governance WG updates. Um, the number one next steps with badges. Um, I guess I can speak to this. Um, but I haven't had a chance to sync up with them's. Um, really the next step with the badges is that somebody needs to look at the diligence documents. Look at the, um, um, look at the annual review documents. Um, uh, can somebody actually take notes when I'm talking. I'm, I'm a good secretary, but I'm unable to talk and type at the same time. So, um, sync with the annual review documents, sync with the due diligence documents and that sort of thing and come up with a sort of coherent set of badges based on the data that we're already collecting. Um, as our initial proposal. Um, the, um, so, um, the, uh, that's kind of the big next step. The sort of smaller next step is figuring out what our sort of feedback loop is going to be to validate the badges. Um, the, um, but I kind of want to hold off on that second part until we determine what badges we're going to be doing initially, because I think, I think the what is going to affect the how. Uh, the other thing is that we have two documents that everybody's approved of and we just need to get those merged into PRs. Um, one is, um, the document on, um, growing leaders on, on, um, electing, selecting, assigning leadership. Um, and the other one is a document on what is governance. Um, these are advisory documents. Um, so they just, I should have, I should have time tomorrow to PR and the leadership selection one. Yeah. Cool. To those that we can review. Uh, yeah, I've got the, I've got the leadership selection one open. I'll drop that one in now. Okay. I have a question. Yeah. Like four versions of what is adopted in the notes. Yeah. So if you have comments on leadership selection one, drop those in today and I can have a look at those before I PR it in my morning tomorrow. These are all things on the content list. I'm going to be working next on, um, sort of defining common paperwork for projects. Um, the, um, and, uh, this is material I already have it will link into the template repository. Um, I, you know, because in two ways, one is both links to the existing templates that we have. And then second, um, determining whether or not we need to add some additional templates. Because if we say something is, Hey, this is paperwork. Most projects need them. We don't have a template for it. Oh, I wonder if, um, under governance, we should talk about the issue that George raised with the voting tools. Oh, yeah. That is, that is important. Thank you for remembering that. Yeah. Um, the, um, so this actually came out of the election committee for Kubernetes where we're doing all of this munging of voter lists and getting people's email addresses out of get, et cetera, and saying this is really stupid. A computer ought to be doing this. Um, the, um, I, and, um, um, the suggestion, um, which don't remember the Georgia suggestion or Bob suggestion was, you know, we should just really get the CNCF to hire an intern to create an online version of SIVs that, um, uses external OAuth. Um, and in the case of projects like Kubernetes, we would tie it in with GitHub, but other projects could tie it in with different OAuth sources if they had a reason to. Um, and, and the spec is not complicated. This is honestly something that we could write up with. Um, I, you know, a page long spec plus the SIV source. Um, and, um, and, you know, turn loose some intern on it to work on it for four months. Um, so, so it looks like it was suggested both by Amy and somewhere in that issue. Um, I have not poked at it yet, but just to say, I found out about this, um, approximately like two weeks ago, and I'm very excited about like being able to actually use like a proper system because one of the great things about Opavote is that it will show you how many people have actually voted. What a concept. This tells you how many people voted. Yes. You can say like as the votes come in, I won't tell you when we'll show you what's winning, but it'll, it'll show you like exactly how many of the ballots that are out and how many people have voted, which is very, very nice. And I did not realize that I wanted that feature until I did not have it. Is it an open source? I'm kind of down with talking to the people that make SIVs and saying, how can we help you make this better? Oh, SIVs is not maintained anymore as far as I know. The, the SPI folks patch it periodically when there's some need to do so, but I don't think there's any active developments on it. It just exists. Yeah. I'm like, I'm wondering if it's on sentient or open source it then, right? What, SIVs is open source. It is? Yes.  The, I'm actually wondering about, but hang on is, is OPA vote like free for open source projects or something? Yeah. And then the other, and then the other questions are things like, like one of the critical features for us is we need people to be able to log in via their GitHub login. Yeah. And if OPA vote doesn't have that feature, it doesn't solve our problem. Definitely don't think they have that feature. I remember looking at them for that. I mean, it's been a while though, and they could have turned that over, but as of last year, they did not have that feature. Yeah. It seems like something a lot of projects would, would want. And like you said, it makes, it makes absolute sense to have it tied into GitHub with, without it, it's just, it just becomes a nightmare. Yeah. And OPA vote is not open source. So we would have no ability to have that feature ourselves. I mean, for that matter, I have some nervousness about any non open source solution for our voting. Just because, you know, if there was, if there was a bug in how it worked, we just wouldn't know. No, clear. And, and given that I'm currently going through bugs and how we determine the list of. Kubernetes voters. I kind of feel like that's also a, an inalienable feature. Oh, the Ben the elder bug. Everyone's favorite bug. Well, it's not actually we have a new one, Lily C. Yeah. Of that class. Yeah. Yeah. Ben is pretty much the, always the first one to bump into that bug. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is like, I, you know, I had no particular reason to know that the capitalization of people's handles in Kubernetes slash org was different from the capitalization in dev stats. And, you know, just didn't occur to me as a problem. And we had this discussion too, because I, like I said, I'm doing this to a Postgres database. I can't figure out a way to have another member of the election commission audit what I'm doing to double check it. And we couldn't figure one out. And then of course that paid dividends. And it's like, it's like, why aren't these tools doing like display name and then also like a normalized ID, right? Of some sort. Right. Anyway, getting back to the proposal. I don't think Opavote unfortunately, I don't think Opavote has the features we need. The, I mean, we can obviously talk to them. But I'm not seeing anything about supporting external authentication. But if they don't have it, I still think it makes sense to talk to CNCF about doing this as a project and then having it, CNCF or LF as a, as a Linux foundation feature for their projects. Because if there's, if there's anything that makes sense for the Linux foundation to supply as a service, it is voting. And I also wonder. Like when we were building the steering committee elections years ago, I also wonder if in your governance guidance that you give to projects that this is actually something that they need to watch out for as they build for these roles. Because in the beginning for us, it was even more ambiguous. And like when you're, when we're building for like roles and different levels of maintainer or whatever it is that, you know, voting members, they need to do things like collect their emails or have voting mechanisms in place where you can contact them and get them. And like the ability, so I guess I'm, what I'm getting at is the ability to contact these said people in the roles that you want them in is so difficult. I think in open source in general, but here it was just so key and apparent and Josh, as you're doing it now, you're like, this sucks. And it's like, yeah, I feel like it's just more apparent when we, when we do activities like this, that we really don't have good contact methods for folks. Yeah. Well, I mean, in the case of Kubernetes, the reason why we want to have authentication via GitHub is that then the contact method issue becomes kind of a non issue. Right. Exactly. So, because I mean, our big problem there is we determine who can vote by their GitHub handle, but then we need to contact them via email. You know, a project that was doing everything via email. Like for example, this was never a problem in Postgres because Postgres does everything by email and has a very complex and self-maintained custom email infrastructure to support this. That is the problem though is that, that projects are inventing their original one-off tools. Yeah. The, anyway, the, that's here. Yeah. So I think, I think we should bring this to proposal to CNCF, even though I'm going to also contact OPA vote at the same time, because I've just realized, I know the person who runs OPA vote from my account. So, he, he and I actually apparently went to Sacramento together. So, the, so I will go ahead and ping him and see whether or not external off is even a likely possibility. I mean that said, I still think something open source created by, you know, someone working for the CNCF would still be a better solution. Among other things, OPA vote costs per election and per voter, and across all of the CNCF projects that would add up to a pretty substantial amount of money, you know, and it would put often put projects in a situation where they ask CNCF to where they have, they have to ask CNCF in order to do an election, and then CNCF might sometimes say no for budget reasons. I would say that speaking about the interim, so you can always, you can always get an interim working with, we are the community bridge, and this would be a great community bridge project. Of course, so welcome to, to start working on this, so you're welcome to put your proposal late August, so Post-Cube Con will launch another round, and that's it. So you can even try that as Kubernetes project, because it's primarily for the Kubernetes project needs, and if you want to, you can scale it later. There's to be estimated time for the interim to work on the regular project is around three months, so hopefully that should be fine if not so we can figure something else. But community bridge probably is the easiest way to handle that fiscally, and in a way of finding someone to handle the task. Yeah, that seems fine, but the, the other part of this that I want to push through this thing is the idea that when we have something CNCF would officially adopt it as a thing that's available for CNCF projects if they want to use it, just as a project for Kubernetes. Yeah, we can discuss it later, but again, like considering directly the question on the hiring and interim and development substance, so community bridge is the easiest way to do it. Okay, well if you can help me through the community bridge paperwork for creating an internship opportunity, I and I'll think would anybody else here be interested in being a mentor for this, I mean I think I have to be on it because I think I'm probably the only one in our SIG who can still read Pearl, but my Pearl or someone else's Pearl? Someone else's Pearl, and I think SIVS was originally written for Pearl 5.1, so it's a little gnarly. I'm clutching my Pearls about that. I'm here all week. You said you weren't even going to be here, what's wrong with you? Yeah. I can go. So we can discuss it later, post-KipCon, we're going to launch another next round of community bridge, so we may definitely have something there. So let's just chat after that, after the next week. And I'm happy to help you all with all the onboarding instructions on how to get started as a mentor and do everything that is needed. Did we roll a service desk issue, or is it sufficient to just have that GitHub issue? It's sufficient to have a GitHub issue. If you want something more than just a community bridge in terms of service desk, the ticket will be required, but if you find we're just going to the community bridge line, so we have the mentoring repo under the CNSF organization where we track all the proposals. So I'll open the Q3, Q4 round soon, and you'll be able to submit your formal proposals. So it's done similarly to that way, how people are proposing the Google Center for Proposals, for example. So everything is public, you can just propose, you can just put a full request there with your ideas, and that's it. I'll try to find some links now, I'm sure, here, in the chat, not to take an hour time. Okay. So, just adding an action item for me. Okay. So given that, let us move on to contributor growth. So Carolyn, Dawn. I missed last meeting, so hopefully someone who's there can speak to it. I don't actually go to the contributor growth meetings, I just picked up the project health thing, because that's what I do. I was there, but Dawn, I want you to talk about your project health thing, so you've been putting in a ton of work there. So you start first. Yeah, I'm happy to. So the links in the, links in the doc, yeah, basically I went through and I picked some measurements that, so the idea behind this doc, let's just start at the beginning, was to get people away from thinking that stars and forks measure project health, because they don't, they're vanity, popularity metrics, they're interesting, but not from a health perspective. So the whole purpose of this doc was try to get people thinking about what actually matters when it comes to project health and why it matters. So certainly in one doc, we're not going to have a comprehensive all of the things you can measure. So what I try to focus on were the things that I thought was the most important with an eye towards helping people understand why it might be important to measure for their particular project. And then I added a big disclaimer kind of towards, towards the top here to address a lot of the comments in the, you know, throughout the, the doc about how, you know, they're not one size fits all there. The dashboards aren't going to be right. There are going to be issues with the data. So I tried to address that there. And I also included it at the very bottom as well. So I don't know how much people want to talk about this, but I would encourage you to have a look if you wanted to provide some feedback today. I will probably try to PR this tomorrow, but it's basically broken down into a bunch of types of metrics with ideas and examples for how you might want to measure it along with some best practices at the bottom. That's all I had. I'm down for you to PR this in and do, and have us do comments and do like a mailing list call for comments. If you want to do that. Yeah, sure. That sounds good. I like anything. I sort of think it's better to get the doc out so that people can use it and then we can, we can iterate on it and continue to improve it over time. Yeah. Josh, you're on mute. I see your lips moving. From my perspective, there's enough there that we could go ahead and PR it. We'll do. Yeah, I'll try to get to that tomorrow. And then the meeting on Tuesday was a small meeting. Toby came. It was a new contributor added a ton of value, actually added some issues about the idea of recognizing contributors. So for instance, how some projects do contributor recognition at release, like either in the changelog or on some kind of website or something along those lines, just pretty much like guidance around how to end ways, best practices, ideas, et cetera for recognizing contributors. So that's an issue if anybody is interested in picking up to be set in GitHub or if you just have something to add as far as stuff that you think works or stuff that you've seen added to that issue as well. Container D, the project came by. They are looking for some guidance and they're willing to schedule a dedicated project meeting for us. They would like to talk about how to set up roles, for instance, security advisors, reviewers, different types of roles, and they're looking for guidance there. I'm coordinating with Derek McGowan, one of their maintainers. We haven't gotten very far yet, but when we have dates, we'll do like a doodle and I'll send them to the governance group as well as the contributor strategy group to see what makes sense on a course of action on how we can best help the Container D crew. They're also potentially looking at these as on ramps into the project as well. So obviously looking at Kubernetes with the release team and some of the other team kind of things that we have that create entries into contributions for Container D. So it was very cool to have a project there though. I was like, hey, Derek, I work with you. What are you doing here? So it's cool. I feel like the outreach that we're doing is slowly but steady working. And that's also just a side note to all of y'all to continue with the outreach as well. But that was pretty much it. We also just did just a general, wow, we still have a lot more work to do, stand up, but that was pretty much it. OK. So we've got, that sounds good. At some point, do we need to worry about having some kind of clearinghouse thing for requests? I mean, we get a certain number of requests from projects. We've been dealing with them ad hoc. I was just going to say. Is ad hoc still working? Yeah, OK. Yeah, I'm going to finish you. OK, cool. And we probably want a template for that. So yeah, I owe a issue and I owe after that a doodle.  And they're like, no, no, no, no, let's set up something for us to dig deep. So maintainers and us. So should they just come to one of our meetings then? Well, I mean, I think that's, you know, they said that as well. So yeah, because I mean, we'll coordinate that. Like I said, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Yeah, because I think our intent was was like the alternating meetings. We'd have a kind of drop by slot. I feel like if the drop by slot is going to be a real thing, we need to somehow advertise it differently. I thought we advertised according to the outreach that the whole dang thing is just because we were trying to get people to just drop in period. Yeah, I think we're going to hit the the webs and the twitters and all the things heavier. I think we've got like a, you know, the core group, but getting more maintainers from different projects would be cool. OK. I think sometimes it feels weird to drop into someone else's meeting and not be on the agenda and just kind of like agenda bomb them. Yeah, OK, we're going to talk about my rando thing. So I think sometimes maybe if we say like it's totally OK, like we have time carved out in our agenda for you to come and talk about whatever that may help. Another option is to explicitly call them office hours because it's hard when people like you said, I always I always feel sort of guilty like dropping in on somebody else's project meeting with my own agenda to ask a bunch of questions that's more appropriate for an office hours. We did that like once a month or something. And I mean, if we want something of a structure like office hours is good, but also like drop into like actually drop yourself onto the agenda, right? So like shoot a note to the list, say like, hey, is it cool that we drop by and food date and then put up actually agenda items that you want to discuss, right? That way there's some structure around it before we get started. I've also just been going to them, which I know isn't sustainable. I know I'm already getting eye rolls. But yeah, I've been going to some community meetings and stuff like that. Just just try to throw a break across the. Yeah, I think that's I think it's likely to be a lot more successful. Like there are the requests for help that I've gotten and I've generally gotten because I'm a member of the project ecosystem already. Either because of Red Hat or because, you know, it's in technology area. I'm involved in so. But even if we're going to do, say, an official once a month office hours, I think we would want to go to ping people and individual projects and and remind them of it. Yeah, I feel like some projects are so water right now. They're not hearing what we're putting out. So by going directly to them, maybe they're more likely to take advantage. Oh, totally. And after all, the projects who need our help the most are the projects that do not have assigned specifically assigned administrative staff. Yeah, this is why I want to maintain our circle. The start's so bad. So speaking of which, let's talk about me in your circle. I'm a great takeaway. Oh, I'm sorry. It's me say something. I had a lag. I apologize. There was like a weird lag. OK, go. I just want I didn't want to make I didn't want to cut anybody off. So maintainers circle. I was bouncing some ideas around with Karen about the idea of overemphasizing that the first one is going to be a light session just to get everybody together and in the mode of getting together. So thinking about something called meals with maintainers so that it's lighter and people are OK with, you know, bringing a bite to eat or something like that. And then that also gives us kind of like the OK to book during, like, for instance, 12 p.m. Pacific time. So folks understand that it's, you know, a casual of nature thing. Thinking of launching that one of the first two weeks of September and then KubeCon November would have some kind of a much larger show. And then idea after KubeCon November would be to have at least the cadence be once a month. And then, obviously, further cadence be dictated from the members. So that's where we are with maintainers circle right now. We already have at least three topics in the queue, including inclusive language and I know Steven's group, the working group for naming and Kubernetes has already kicked up. So in a couple of months, we'll actually have probably some guidance from that group as well for that meeting. And that's really it. I have not made any progress on discussion around the online identity of the thing, meaning maintainers.cncf.io, contributors.cncf.io. I can't even remember where we left it off, honestly. I think it was, let's do contributors.cncf.io. And then how's the maintainers circle stuff under there? Does anybody remember where we left off with that one? Yeah, I don't remember either. Time, what is time? I don't think we had any file agreement. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it was file the service desk ticket. Yes, service desk always has a way of just popping up. Yeah, that's right. I need to follow service desk ticket. Um, because I think that would be, I think that would be a really good goal for us to have for launch for like a KubeCon November would be to launch like a contributors.cncf.io and then have like the project templates and the maintainer circle and, you know, a link to the TOC maintainers public thing, and, you know, whatever else. You said November, right? Yeah, OK, just making sure. Yeah, no, not in two weeks. Yeah, I can barely file an issue in two weeks, little. Also, it's not two weeks. Yeah, yeah, it's like. Oh, yeah, it's in like two days. It's very soon. Yeah. I know, two days, I meant like the whole next two weeks is going to be like, yeah, anyway, so it's for the meals for maintainers or meals with maintainers. Is that does that intended to be a one time thing? No, I mean, I think that would be like the theme of the whole thing because I I like I don't even have lunch scheduled on on my calendar. And like, I don't want to meeting during the assumed lunch time that people normally have. Yeah, one o'clock, then. I don't even want to discuss when I have lunch. What is lunch, really? It's optional. What is lunch? Yeah, you know, it's like you said 12 o'clock PT and I immediately winced because like it's so San Francisco Pacific Time Zone Center that it's really off putting. Well, I did that was a example that like I'm going to like do a doodle and like we're going to throw a doodle out and like get people's preferred times. That was a literal example. I it also could be 6 p.m. PT for dinner for Pacific. It could be and then late night meal for someone else. It could that mean it could be breakfast in their time zone. It could be lunch in their time zone. That's what I meant by being inclusive, by being inclusive of the fact that everybody's probably on the line, eating some kind of meal. Like. I. The problem is it's just going to be another meeting if we don't necessarily have a theme to it, like it's just going to be. Oh, it's just a bunch of CNCF maintainers getting together and having another Zoom meeting. So that's why I'm just like thinking from the agenda item. It would be everybody gets everybody gets together. We do some kind of icebreaker. We chat, we get, you know, we do whatever we either have a speaker or don't. But then at that point in time, we all do breakout rooms. So then we would use the Zoom feature to do breakout rooms and then have much smaller groups to do discussion topics. So that's kind of what I'm thinking about as far as like what what the composition would look like of kind of like the first meeting. And then there, like I would hope that the maintainers would kind of want us to shape it in the way that they want it. So I like everything with the meal thing. I think like, let's see what time shake out and after we we doodle it, but I like the structure overall. Just not the having to be on a call and eating. OK, well, then I can totally go back to maintainer circle. I have people excited to go, by the way. I was talking to the home maintainers and was pumping it up because they're having trouble promoting and finding more maintainers and contributors and people talking about some of the troubles they've been having with like people camping and being jerks in their issue queue and stuff like that. And I'm like, oh, this is perfect. Let's talk about this in maintainer circle. So we're we have people excited to start is all I want to say. I wanted to kick this up like a week ago, but everybody was like, no, cube con. And then I was like, y'all, like, oh, my God, it's just going to be like the longest launch of my life right now. Six months launch because we've already had two cube cons. And like, yeah, I'm just ready to launch this. Yeah. I'm ready to go. But yeah, I'm going to submit a service test ticket and talk about building of contributors dot cncf.io and get started there. See what happens. But that's it. So my God, I see that last one on our agenda, but it looks like we already talked about it. We did. Yeah. OK, we've got that. We've got those plans. I actually do have one question here. And I guess the question, what's the deadline for submitting cncf SIG sessions for November? Not yet. Not yet. OK. September 13th. OK. September 13th. Yeah. If if I can just since we're not having a governance meeting next week, if I could just April and Dawn here right now, does it make sense to submit one? I was thinking of submitting one that would actually be a sort of short workshoppy thing on, you know, creating governance for your project. Yeah, that'd be awesome. OK. I'd be down for that. I submit to what? I missed that part. For November, for KubeCon November, I see in CFSIGs and working groups can. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I was thinking of doing one that was specifically a how to session about creating governance for your project. Yeah, no, that sounds good. No, my invite for my KubeCon Amsterdam invite came in and I was trying to look at that and make sure that I had it on my calendar. Yeah. And I got I got distracted and stopped listening just when you said my name. Yeah, OK. But yeah, if we have until September 13th, then we will have another governance meeting to work out details of that. So. It would be cool if we could have more curated sessions on the maintainer track about topics that maintainers want to hear. Like I've been trying. I've been talking to the events folks about this for a couple of years now where it's like, let's have a contributor summit, but the maintainer track. So obviously still do deep dives and intros, but things like governance workshops and how to recruit contributors and burnout and for everyone, right? Not just necessarily like the Kubernetes maintainers that we that we service that content for. So I'm wondering if we should think about it like that, too. That'd be great. Good. See what that works, though. Like it would just be a mega maintainer track. Well, I'm just saying, like, if the process right now is that each, you know, project, whatever gets one session, we'd have to sweet talk Amy into. Helping convince that we need more sessions. No.  So my thing about this is really like we are so limited on the sessions that we can offer for virtual anyways. So do the best one. I love you all, but one. Well, and one thing also, Kara, is like, you know, that's still. Well, like it's still a great idea. It doesn't have to happen within the coupon. We could easily use the CNCF like webinars and other stuff and do that same kind of stuff, especially since everything's a virtual these days. Like we don't have to be constricted by the week of coupon. Well, if you want, if you want to do it in conference format, I have a platform available. That's cool. Well, I thought the deal was for us to have a maintainers circle during KubeCon and because a ton of maintainers have requested it. And the reason that I heard that we shouldn't have one this time was because that would be seen as competing against KubeCon. So is it competing or not? Because if we do it like as a one off in Boston, then I'll be seen as competing with KubeCon and not a part of KubeCon when the maintainers come to us and not to the main show. So what's being suggested like the semi equivalent of like a contributor summit type thing except it's not yet, except it's just on a maintainer track. And I'm just saying I want to like on that same maintainer track, it would be cool to have maintainer circles or a maintainer circle event. I would I would say and I would say a talk event. But given what I've heard about space, we're probably not going to swing multiple things. So, I mean, it's OK if we have maintainer content that's not at KubeCon, like y'all would be OK with that? I mean, I would be OK with that. I don't know what you mean by I mean, I literally would have stood up the maintainer circle next week. Literally, I asked about this a couple of weeks ago. I said, hey, let me stand up the maintainer circle during the week of KubeCon so that we can ride KubeCon. And everybody was like, no, don't do that. That takes away from KubeCon. I mean, given that everything I. So mixed feelings given that confused as to. I think we want to do special maintainer content that we don't try to tie it into the week of KubeCon. I mean, yeah, like online events are so exhausting as it is, like just more I'm exhausted thinking about multiple events happening in concert personally. And let's we have like eight minutes like what we can. Do you want to async it a little bit, Paris? I guess my point is when when when is it appropriate to have a maintainer circle? Because if we can't have it during KubeCon, because all I have been asked so many times from maintainers to have a contributor summit for CNCF during KubeCon. Like people are already there. They're already together. They want to well and talk. But they're not this time, right? Right. So since it's virtual, I think that frees us up from that constraint. Like. You could do it whenever. Yeah, just this week then. That's why I'm like, I don't know why why we made it. So so next week I don't. Yeah, yeah. So next week we've got KubeCon and then between that and the next KubeCon. Let's let's do it soon. I mean, we're going to. But the second one was going to I was planning it for it to be November at KubeCon. So that's why I'm just like, all right. It's. It's days and days of webinars that add another meeting. I'm going to kick it off right at the beginning of September. I mean, everybody's on holiday right now because it's August. I think that and everybody's got KubeCon and then we've got a week to recover from KubeCon. I think early September, like once people are yeah, after holidays, do we have can we pull together the content by then? Yes, I guess versus OK, if, you know, if you want a platform, I believe. We've signed our blanket contract. We as in Red Hat with Hopin to and I have a budget for hosting community events. So that is available. If the Red Hat logo is everywhere. I don't think so. I don't think so. One of the one of the complaint, one of the complaints that the Red Hat marketing people had about Hopin to is that our logo is not everywhere. So I mean, I think if it's even in one spot, it would be. Yeah, OK, well, I can look into that. Yeah, the I mean, I was just going to use Zoom and breakout rooms. If you think that can work, if well, if you can do better, let's do it. Yeah. I mean, we're also on a CNCF call. So yeah, if there are resources to. I just I I happen to. So I I have. Frequent chats with Nancy, who's who's in charge of of running Kubecon. All the things, yes. And this is why I didn't even really necessarily consider asking CNCF for info for this, because I happen to know what she's struggling with right now. Um, the so. It turns out of the weight, like a hot, like two weeks, we might have more bandwidth. I do. Yeah. So if you come like with an idea in two weeks, perhaps like we might be able to actually, like, you know, have conversations about that. Who knew? Yeah, so maybe we ask, right. Yeah, maybe the thing is we can also ask CNCF after Kubecon. The thing is we can plan this, we can set a date, right? We have the hop into platform. You know, that I can contribute. So we know we can host it, even if CNCF does not have a way to host it. So and then we can wait and ask CNCF after Kubecon, whether or not they have a way to host it. So let's file a service test ticket about the request and and then anything else that happens, whether it's before or after Kubecon, well, we'll take it from there. That's perfect. It's at least on our radar. And so we can start like figuring out what details need to be, as well as timelines. Because one other thing that I'm kind of concerned about is as we get past like the North America event, we're coming real close into the holidays. So, you know, just have to think about it, but super important for later. Yeah, go team. I have a small housekeeping question to just seek. So notice that the list of chairs has not been updated. I assume that we're going to step down as emeritus and Stephen was nominated as a chair. And I assume that it was uploaded. Which list? Because I updated it. In the read me of the, of the second to the first trade. Oh, cool. All right. How do we miss that? Yeah. Yeah, I'll get to it. Yeah, I guess I'll admit that what I did was I actually, I fixed Stephen's actual permissions rather than the documentation. Okay. Perfect. Can do, can do. Awesome. Thanks for that. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Do we have anything else before, in the three minutes before we close this out? Oh, I had one thing. So I'm going to be doing KubeCon as well, which means I'm not sure. I have it in me to do the whole day and then also do the working group next week. So... It should not be murdered. I hear you guys. I told all those things. Yeah. You're also not doing the governance next week. I believe I have murdered everything. Let me know if something is on the calendar and it should not be, but let me look down like they're all dead. Amy's feeling a little violent apparently. No, not at all. It's all about like, I want your double booked to be your own fault, not like our fault for like the meetings that we would always have. That's what I want. Yeah. It's just the whole murdered thing. And I just, maybe there's some, you know, progression. I don't know. It's all dead. It's a cleanse. It's a good old calendar. But no, more seriously, if you see a meeting on there for next week, it should not be there. I've gone through most of the things. No, it's gone. I see it's gone now. Yeah. That's fine. Thank you for the ping. I feel like I took care of this yesterday, but you know, there's always something. No, we're good. I blame caching. Sure. To be fair, calendaring is one of the hard problems still. So who knew? Oh, it is.  The, I, right. I blame Microsoft, but Google has a lot to answer for there too. Yeah, VMware migrated our pivotal calendars, Google calendars to VMware calendars. And I literally, that was months ago. And I still spent 45 minutes today on a call with our executive assistant trying to sort out why I have phantom meetings on my calendars. And not for the meeting. Do you love it? Do you love it? It's amazing. It's the updated invitation with note, canceled, updated, removed. And you're like, what am I doing with the like, am I going? Do I go? Yeah. Yeah. I literally have phantom meetings on my calendars that have been canceled ages ago and still what they won't disappear off my calendar will not go away. Just got to blow up email. No more email. I did. Yeah, I just blew up today. Yeah, we need, I just feel like I need the Google calendar. I murdered them as Amy would say. I, I just feel like I need the Google calendar equivalent of the Twitter thing, right? Where you delete and recreate your account in order to cancel all of your followers and followers. Sometimes I want to like delete my Google calendar account. It's like, where's the soft block for all of my meetings? Yes. Yeah. And with all of our murder notes, I think I, I think that's it. We are at time. Yeah. On that note. Yeah. Okay. Helping. Later, y'all. See ya. Bye, everybody. Have a good day. Bye.