Hello everybody. If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me seemingly truly as always is my co-host Tyler. What's up, buddy? How are you doing? Yeah, good to be here man. Early show Yeah, early show third week in a row. This man is a hero. We all need to send Tyler some love Tom worthless as always just completely worthless Fortunately, we have Tyler also joining us for the first time on the show Someone who I've gotten to know very well over the past year Yanis, how are you doing sir? Very good to have you on the show Very excited. It is kind of a dream come true here. Oh It's fine. No so We are going to talk today About What's the objectively best army? That's right. We're gonna science this This is something that Yanis put into my head So Yanis is a patron and a student. We've been working together a lot on models and hobby but then also much like myself Yanis has a deep and abiding love of philosophy and sort of traditional Socratic thinking I suppose is what we we could use just to keep it simple and he came to me a little while back with this idea around creating in a sort of a Matrix that one could evaluate on that have used in different ways might lead to some kind of objective truth or at least that's what we'll explore today So That is all in store, but of course first the news Rumor engine I Saw some folks hoping that this might be an early sign of the one and only Usher on the carrion king. I Love that idea. I hope that's what this is some centerpiece model some incredible model with the full release of flesh-eater courts That we are hoping to see later this year We've got a death rattle skeleton there and a shield sure sure It could be something that's nothing to do with death and there's some dead people on it It could be anything Presumably Aegis Sigma We can establish that yeah, yeah, it's got any guesses on what this might be Was wondering about the helmet. I don't think I've seen one of this like this before with the little horns on the side But I don't know Well, I think older graveyard had little horny helms So that could be like an incorporation of those two elements like the newer graveyard Like a sort of newer graveyard design We can just imagine the kit that doesn't exist yet through their corpses scattered on this on this scenic base Which it's either yes a piece of terrain or a scenic base like that's what it is cool It doesn't look a bit bigger, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean there's that there's a decent size to this because those are both obviously in scale Skeletons, right? So those are people we're looking at like the whole Person here as it were basically for that for the guy who's under his friend And they both look like they've been there quite a while they're rather worked into the stone as it were So my guess is you know It's it's something it's some center like some centerpiece model for something coming up would be my my easy thought You know since Lumineth are always fighting death it's New Lumineth wave. Let's get going. We had it's been a little while. So this is Tyrion right here. Okay? Yeah, we go, right? Logically there we go Okay, so we had a couple of articles on city of Sigmar so they had an article showing the remaining You're doing this in a weird order darn it. I should It's my here. Let's do this one first. Let's let's do the let's do the the black talons crew First black time. So you think I would know that by now I need to get on the same page with you about the order in which we're doing this We've only been doing this for a little while. All right black talents. This was a complete surprise to me I don't know about you guys, but I think this unit looks Phenomenal love the show. It's my favorite as I said before age of Sigmar Media product they put out this black talon anime series on warmer plus I haven't watched all of it yet, but it was amazing what I did see and yeah, this warband looks Looks just spectacular Yannis, what do you think about this? I absolutely agree. I love the show. I think you can see in the design that They were made for the show. So they took some more Differentiation between the different characters. They added in the sorcerer there as well Mm-hmm. Love it Yeah Amazing. So I have to say I'm a stormcast player. I don't need more stormcast heroes Yes, you do. Yeah, but do you need Yeah, definitely I love this thing man. I'm all about these these people. Yeah I have not seen an episode of the show and never will put it out on Warhammer plus or sorry put it out on Netflix or something Or I'm not watching it. I'm not I'm not subscribing to Warhammer plus ever where you can forget that So like no offense to anyone who does if you do and you find value in it good for you But that's a big no from me dog There's too many streaming services and things as it is. I don't need any more monthly charges but That being said these figs are I Mean this is the stuff right here, buddy Like every one of these is just dripping with character. I love how they're all they all feel different You know, they talk about how like the the one guy I don't remember his name But when he was the previous leader of the old guy in the lower, right? It's people who watch the show probably know his name I read the article and like he was the previous leader of this group before a knee you've joined, right? And like they look somewhat thematically connected like they're both from that same chamber and you know that kind of thing But then the other two just look completely different like you've got the big paladin guy with missing the arm Plate, you know, or the bicep plate on his armor just show them the muscles The the sniper Fantastic and then that like what is she a tidecaster? I guess is that what she's with her soul scryer or something? She's a she's a I mean obviously an IDK person, but yeah, I think typecast or maybe If it's a scryer one of those two Whichever one she is she looks amazing love the like veil Look over the face. Yeah Love the floating look with her by the tree like I get it that of course there's a part of her leg That's just stuck in the tree, but like who cares. It's fantastic. She really looks like like the cave movement and stuff is great This is awesome. And hey Tyler are you excited about the chance to have an IDK caster in your your stormcast? Actually, yeah. Yeah, 100% I mean that that's one of my favorite IDK models. They've put out yet. It's like head to toe Yeah, it's amazing. I do wonder how much this This unit is going this warband is going to be I'm hoping it's not too far north of 300 points But you know if they actually have a war scrolls that reflect the the power of this warband of this of this group It's it's gonna be 300 plus would be my guess. I Assuming the show they're like straight killers and just like really get the work done like they're fighting basically armies by themselves, right? Okay, so they're 2,000 points done good. Let's do it 2,000 points you cowards Uh Every one of these people is just bad BA enough to handle on their own two up armor save three up ward all the way down the line They can never have their ward save removed They're all twos and twos neg for rend five damage each It seems no problem. We can get there. We can get a 2,000 point thing. Yeah, let's go Beat them on somewhere between Right somewhere between 300 and 400 would be my guess surely not north of 400, but yeah, one would assume. Yeah One little thing that I liked for the sniper. They have a caped option where she has the cloak above the head But yeah, yeah, yes, so I think they've learned the Underworlds warband this with the lantern the one they had to cut off the cape. I think yeah No, I agree sometimes we just want to see the face, right? Yeah. Yeah, and not just cut something away Absolutely All right, cool good stuff So all in all fantastic looks super cool to me Can't wait to see him in person and what their rules are so yeah All right, what you have next you got some cities next cities is next yo Absolutely by the way if you think these people are awesome and or you like anything we've talked about thus far You're just excited for the show. Don't forget to hit the like button or subscribe or something like that It's it's always appreciated and helps other people find the show especially as we're live the more of you The click that little like button. It's so easy The more of you that do it the more people come watch the show as it's happening Okay, so cities we got to see the rest these units So we got the new war altar. That's what I've got up first With this like priest in the The photo of the picture of Dorian Whatever on the backside of her yeah picture of doing great Thank you because like that thing is is taking her damage or aging for her or something Yeah, yeah, okay, that's pretty cool So that's very fun And you really like her and this this month the maitreak of the Great Will Actually seeing some some good quality photos of this model. Yeah, I dig There was a guy on Twitter did a nice breakdown of how well how good they're getting or getting better certainly at Faces and diversity in and faces and races And so on and I thought she's a great example of this this Pontifex and Estra. So yeah, really cool No, absolutely agree. I love that we actually get female faces that look like female faces And not just a guy's face with a girl haircut on top or something like that Which is what a lot of other schools look like, right? Like they actually have a lot more beyond that they have character, right? They've done a great job of really building in character and as you said like body types and like really getting in there Like look at this guy in back. Look at how great this dude looks with this like extra He's got that like double chin going on.  I mean a lot of the stuff would slide right into turn up 28 like no issue at all So, yeah, then we got the big cannon Excited about new cannon Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's pretty sweet looking have not seen the rules yet. So I'm always get Terrified when it comes to a shooting unit On this today, okay, they did yeah, they shared the rules on the on the cannon today So Well like the question first of all, Janice, what's your what's your take on this big cannon? How do you like it? I'm not the biggest fan of the cannon Because I don't see why it would need these this shield before it So in a fight because they should be further away. I do love the Kennineers, so there's characters behind them the one drinking from the bottle the woman in the back They are out doing themselves. So different body types and they look more human Like you said more character and more like it is a scene and not just people Yep I always got the the other barrel there just in case he needs to switch out right like that's pretty pretty great So the cannon It has three different attack modes Tyler. Okay, okay So it's got the cannon ball your traditional cannon ball just a good old-fashioned cannon ball That's two attacks fours twos neg two d3 plus two Okay, yeah Okay, so okay two attacks instead of one good thing. Let's we can ever do the single attack now We've got the armor piercing shell 24 inch range two attacks fours twos neg four rend D6 damage, so we go we go completely random on the damage with the armor yeah, right Spicy rend all right, but it's some spicy rend for you love to see it Okay, and Then we got grape shot That's a 12 inch range five attacks threes and threes neg one two damage So pretty pretty traditional thing we call that the stormcast hero attack profile five three five by threes threes one Two so it can it can also just shoot a stormcast hero attacking at somebody Yeah, or or a grots hero depending on where a grot hero. That's all fine It's obviously not it's not as good as a scaven hero attacking So it's not get too crazy Obviously a claw lord is it is a more dangerous foe Than taking the grape shot of a cannon to the face So when you're thinking what would you rather be standing toe-to-toe with? cannon or claw lord Mathematically they age of sigmar rules writers have answered that question. It's claw lord It's claw lord. It's just the more dangerous thing to stand toe-to-toe with Stand in front of the cannon if you can get as close to that cannon as possible Okay, that's why we have to shoot there. Okay, I get it now. Yeah, there you go Yeah, yeah, sure. So you have to blow back. Yep, absolutely. So, okay Super cool. Love these dudes and then we had one more Well, there's a couple more, but this is really the other one to focus on our mounted hero night Guy, I don't know what this guy's name is. I didn't I don't I didn't remember his name But man, I love this sculpt again the helmet is dumb. I want him to have a different head But beyond that I Love this dude like this guy looks great The movement in this guy with like the banner blowing the cape blowing the sweep of the horse's hair Yeah, it's like a painting and painting in miniature form Yeah, I'm here for this guy Yeah Free-gilled Cavalier Marshall my apologies. That is his name Okay, I don't know if it was Trovarian who painted a death death cork Creek model on a On a horse as well. It reminds me of that somehow I would have to have the picture again but it immediately came to mind also with the Grittiness of the model and I think there's if you look at the others, there's this yeah It's somewhat grim dark, but grim The idea of like brothers grim so a dark fantasy world more or less Which I'm not a hundred percent sure about if I like it in the end Well, there was this one could do it with the who was just a cloak So the assassin cloak and the knife at this hood here. Sure. Sure By the way, this guy does have a helmetless option So if you like I find that helmet completely stupid He does have a helmetless option and yes, his hair is also blowing in the wind with the in the same direction as everything else So there you go Very very cool stuff.  I just think he's cool as Yeah, yeah means homerun makes me want to like it's weird to say but like write a story about a model or an army centered around this guy Which I don't think I've ever had that feeling with the model before like, you know I actually get some narrative going with it with an army with this dude as a centerpiece. It's yeah It's a homerun amazing. Yep. Yep. Love the big pistol in the notice He's got the big pistol up on the front of the horse as well. So, you know, he can he can I I'm sure whenever we see his rules, he'll have like a single pistol attack or something, right? Like it's great Look forward to that. Those are always valuable. Um Yeah, fantastic great job on the paint job to whoever whoever happened to do this in the studio You did a absolute bang-up job on this one like special shout-out to the incredible work of the painters of this whole range So stuff really looks really really really looks good They're really selling this new range like I mean just to go back to this cannon Look at this like wonderful like darkness down to the bottom of the red wood where it's catching like you know Where it's like stained from being down into the dirt and getting getting blowback and stuff on it No, it's great. It's great. It's a little stuff like that. So So much edge highlighting there in that model is a lot is a lot They they really somebody spent a lot of time tracing edges. Yes, indeed I think at least in some parts they make it a bit easier if you look at the cloak It's it has defined lines not a sum of the others or it might be at his backpack where he has his Sleeping bag or whatever it is blanket. I think it might take contrast very well. So it is possible for Yeah beginner painters it painted it as well. Yeah, absolutely agree. Yep Okay, good stuff. I think that was all our news items, right? I believe so Okay, very good. Well, then let's turn to some pick of the week I am going to start Tyler with you and then you honest will go over to you next Tyler because you have the biggest list so you can start us off as usual Tyler going just just nuts Go for it It should be used to by now. I'm trying to get you adjusted. Okay, excellent Gunhammer competitive innovations in the model realms Mike's weekly article on the prior weekend's tournament results Incarnate of the meta the incarnate is back if it ever left We were seeing it quite a bit in seraphon starborn list. Yeah doing the combination of yet range mortal wound output with the rupture and the spell that makes the incarnate wild and Then you feed it and then the spell like a male stream is often a popular choice To keep it leveled up And you've got this thing that you cannot kill and you cannot retreat from Why you're getting hammered with mortal wounds and more mortal wounds and it's just a lovely time It sounds like for everybody So if you want to see some the latest and what's going on in the meta Especially that check that out Mike does awesome work over there Gunhammer Miss cast podcast they're back with season two So the Owen Jackson Darren Watson Alex Q. They had on Matt Goldsboro talking about their GT they attended the other weekend came in the name of it and Darren had a really good analysis of different kind of list designs or list archetypes like you passed a victory so, you know one could be Holding power another could be damage just raw damage and so on so I think it's worth listening to just for that alone And yeah, he's got we're gonna have him on the show at some point soon talking about coaching and AOS so we're looking forward to that and then Rob and company they had a great discussion with Don or Dom Dom. I hadn't seen this fellow before but apparently he's an incredible sportsman An amazing discussion which complemented our discussion last week really well events on the art of sportsmanship in AOS So that was that was a phenomenal listen really enjoyed that show. Yeah, nice. That's it Very nice. Yeah, I'm so what would you like to share with everybody? Um, so I'm going to share a German YouTube channel. So when I got back into the hobby a couple of years ago I started at basically zero not that far away from that now, but He encouraged me to keep going. It's a channel that focuses on all of the different Tabletop that you can play of course of there's war him as well He focused a lot on building terrain and it's tabletop workshop and yeah amazing channel It's a bit like this like like magic craft So a lot of foam cutting and building the latest one was a mystic temple that he Yeah, in a few steps shows you how to make I really like it. Nice. Okay Excited to check that out. Yeah, fantastic. We will link that down below for myself We're gonna recommend the boys over at Cult of Paint who recently did an episode on the very best of Evie metal we were just complimenting and talking about these wonderful Evie metal paint jobs on this new cities of Sigmar range and so this is the very best of Evie metal paint style And and that sort of thing so check it out It's a good episode if you like looking at pretty models I enjoyed it very much and the Cult of Paint guys are always awesome Henry and Andy and the rest of the crew are all fantastic guys. So all of that linked Down below Very good. Let's uh Gentlemen, let's move on to a little bit of Hoppy time Talk about what we've been working on Tyler I've been working on playing games as usual getting ready for for gateway gateway open Yep, so yeah, if you can't come to Nash Khan come to gateway open still on the same weekend It's I think August 20th come come kick my ass at gateway open Since you won't be able to at Nash Khan made some adjustments to my stormcast list So you were giving me a very hard time. I did I think I told you the last week I had to move away from Sion some of going stormkeep. Yeah to help withholding power according to like like Darren Watson said That's that's a path to victory. That's been helping out a lot Nightingale tour and I draconas Lord relic tour Lord Castella the protectors are back in Couldn't quit them 10 protectors in many ways. They never left I never left Yeah, they had a they had a they had a good time against Archeon They love being wizard finders go good doing some hunting of the Grand Marshal of the apocalypse eight star soul attacks Enjoyed that 10 vindictors two by five vanquishers three long strikes. It's only three I'm gonna have a t-shirt printed the far striders either wings. It's good. It's been good so far I have no clue what the hell to do about OBR or Getting mortal whims spammed to death with a cron's mind in my face But hopefully I can avoid those One can only hope just just dodge it. Just don't play that match up is sometimes the answer Fantastic well, I hope you your your practice goes well and you return back to some painting sometime soon for whatever the next force is It's gonna be stormcast. Yeah Get that scheme going That's right. Yeah, honest. What about you buddy? What's been on your desk? I mean, I kind of know given that we just talked recently, but what's been on your desk? Yeah, you kind of don't because when you told me that We will do this so I had one of a one-a-half weeks of preparation Yeah, and I thought I wanted to push on an old project You know it already so I put my headless ghosts aside They are standing here and I continued on my vampire count and I have to zoom out a bit here and I made some headway here Account I don't know if you can recognize it you might have seen it in your past and I have attached the cape today and This is amazing like this color at some point and I might have to do it again Because I think I know now how to build giant stomper capes And yeah, and I tried the so you recommended the graffiti. Yeah, I might have to do that. So this might be our next Yeah, I've been I've had been having so much fun with him. Yeah, and very nice. Yes I love it. He's he's back It has been a hot minute since I've seen that guy good to have him back in the morning back in the party Wonderful wonderful. Yes the count so For myself I did not have a lot of hobby time because immediately after the show last week I packed up and went like quite literally immediately I hit off air and walked upstairs and out the door and got in my car and drove to Gen Con I mean it was within three minutes of the close of the show I was in the car on the way to Gen Con and I was I didn't get back until late on Sunday But I had a little bit of time And so I bet I was keeping working on the towel There's two more little stealth suit guys One of them is already pink and needs to be cleaned up and one is still guys little white lines before the pink goes over them So I've been working my way through through more of these guys to finish that up I also did actually a little bit of my time was dedicated to Some traditional 2d art I was drawing I had to do a drawing so you know It's fun little classic pencil sketching and ink and stuff because I needed to make a new D&D character picture for myself. So 2d art It's always good to to stretch the muscles and start just doing some some actual two-dimensional drawing So there you go That's been my my hobby week. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of fun It's like it lines up with figure painting in the end anyways because it just the more you do that the more it informs Like doing freehand and stuff like that, right? Not that I think I would ever have the need to draw a superhero Modron since that's my next character is a a Like if you took Batman and put it together with a monodrone, which is a which is a modron from the plane of Mechanus, yeah, if you anybody for our viewers, you know what that is His name is Questrone the mystery machine the puzzle box He who tick-tocks in the night. He's got a lot of names. He's very it's a very Very very mysterious figure I'm very excited about that character Anyways, so that was but that kind of that kind of stuff doing that kind of Drawings is just really practice for freehand in the long run. It's all it is So there you go Okay, so Psycho says I heard to paint towel and airbrush is important can be I mean, I'm not doing any of my towel with an airbrush, so But a lot of times it's a very useful tool for towel. So there you go Okay, very good Let's see Let's move on to our topic Alright objective Best there we go. So we're going to dispatch With all of the nonsense or get straight into objective army analysis this is a hard scientific process beyond reproach as we know and we're at the end of this we will certainly have a Simple and true answer as to what is the best army? All right, that was not in any way true But that's okay, there we go But we are going to talk about how we can kind of define this so yeah, as always I do I do appreciate your show titles They they they get the people going Well, that's that's me wheeling it back, right? I'm not being as click-baity as I could be But as we head into the main topic Hey, if you haven't hit like yet because there's a lot more of you watching that have hit that like button again, just just clicky clicky and It's so easy and fun and thank you and you make us happy.  Also, my dogs are back there. Look at that. They're just they're back here sleeping and they they they will get very happy if You hit like trust me. They're there You can always tell if the dogs are in the room with me if this gate is up That's that's the secret how you know Okay So Boop, sorry. Okay overview So, well, what are we on about here? What are we even doing? What we're talking about is it's just like is it possible to objectively evaluate an army through combined subjective analysis right and If so, what can we learn just based on how people choose to subjectively evaluate the thing There's always difference of opinions Like and we're going to be doing subjective evaluations No one is going to state otherwise like most of these things even if you base some of these things loosely on stats even those stats are still a subset of a subset of data Right and not it's we can't really put our finger on it and say like this is a fact in the world that we can touch Right like the Sears Tower is in Chicago or something right like that's a fact you can go see the thing I don't even know it's still called the Sears Tower, but like that's a that's an objective fact You could go verify right Whereas this is like there's no thing you can say like well an army has a 50% win rate Well how based on what matches based on what tournaments based on what time frame based on what battle packs and so on and so Right, there's always a bunch of variables in there Okay But we can use the law of large numbers here, right? This is a sort of wisdom of crowds potential exercise Where if you have a bunch of people do this you could aggregate together the results and potentially get at some kind of objective truth right mm-hmm And or at least how people perceive it to be true in In mass written large But I'm actually not as interested in that yet what I'm more interested in is us there you go. There's a dog What I'm more interested in is us just kind of talking this through Sharing some scores from ourselves and from others who've scored it and why and then maybe we make this sheet available to people Okay for them to fill out on their own just for their not like as a survey just as a sheet as a way to organize their thoughts Right and kind of have a discussion around You know what this thing is and and that sort of thing, right? okay, and Yeah, I haven't said it yet. Thank you for putting this together. This was I was very excited when Vince told me about this And he was even more excited This was right up his alley. So, yeah, very very glad to participate in us Thank you for having me here and sharing that and you've shared it with quite a few people Already and I could see your results and I read all of them at least I read all of them Those as well It's exciting to see this becoming something. Yeah Absolutely, yes, Yannis is the founder of the feast here He's the one who as I said originally came up with the site and and there we go because my I just heard my wife walk in So this was an inevitability So the I think to me the individual answers However, an individual sort of says this I think points to some kind of interesting truth about them and how they see the game and how you think about armies I will say just going through this exercise for multiple armies was sort of revelatory to me And how I think about the game and how I thought about those armies because you kind of have this amorphous idea in your head but when I actually like had to get down and like Fill out the thing Right. It made me think a lot deeper about a lot more dimensions of the thing Right and why do I really enjoy this force or why do I really think this thing about this force? So it was pretty fascinating Okay, so let's talk about the sections because somebody said who was it ghost mutton said we have to define what best is I agree ghost mutton We've got to define our objective evaluation and then wait it We're gonna do both here Yannis is there anything else you want to say on this before we get into the specifics? I think as he said so especially if you do more than one army You will have a broader picture of your own bias and then you can weigh them next to each other especially with the others more subjective parts because some parts are When you've got the tournament data, they will be more objective compared to the most subjective parts and there you can Control yourself a bit Let's put it like this. Sure. And so the idea here is We got different sections that are largely groupings of sort of the concepts on it on evaluative criteria For the thing as I said, these are all subjective evaluations We're not like again, you can choose to base some of this on fact some of this could be rooted in fact Some of this could be rooted in in data. That's probably a better way to say it, right? But ultimately I wanted to get more granular than a poll or a survey right because I think that There's one of the things that sort of aggregates can do is hide Individual variables unless you look at the actual unless you plot all the data points and you can spot the outliers, okay? Mm-hmm, and so This was like it's interesting to me to have that done to have this these individual responses Hello, dear Really You saw that he sent it along today Yeah, but we have a fourth dog now in the house. Yes Oh The chaos hit like for the chaos All right, there we go chaos is perfect building That's part of the show every time Okay, so There we go now that that's done, let's talk about the first section which is play style So here we've got a couple different criteria and these are all weighted differently with different maximum scores Okay, so we've got rules complexity Does it offer a wide degree of complexity for beginners and competitive players alike? So your perfect score here is an army with a low floor and a high ceiling right Balance and in this case what we mean is does its worst roles each fulfill a different function? Does it have good sort of you know internal mechanisms where you you have all of the roles you might need? To field an army and feel good about it. Okay We've got lack of NPE. Is it actually fun to play against us to allow for interactivity or does it do a bunch of Fun-fun things right NPE negative play experience just negative play experience. Nope. Thank you very much We have we use a lot of acronyms and it's good to explain those Then we've got variability of lists, right? So how many different sort of lists can you have the different play styles that are there? That all are interesting doesn't mean they're all necessarily the same competitive level, but that it offers that Ability to have you show up with lots of different lists or different ways that you want to make the army your own Right, there's not just sort of one cookie cutter list and everything else is basically a non-starter Whether that's because of rules or whether it's because it's so bad that it's just like you can't actually play it Right, it's a it's just you just lose at the top of one kind of situation, right? Okay, then we have internal power Does it have its own? internally Balanced ecosystem you don't have to bring other stuff into it other books into it other allies other things like incarnates To make it good, right is the book? self-sufficient Okay So if I'm players you don't have to bring an incarnate. It'll be okay, right now You can you can make it work without without that piece. It's fine. Yep Then we've got psychographic profile and here we're not what we're not testing how it leans into it But rather does it how well does it offer something for all psychographic profiles, right? So how well does it cover the spread so a perfect score here is basically like it's a it'd be dead in the middle of Having like Johnny Timmy spike, right, okay Mm-hmm Gareth says what if my play style is that my army having NPE is something I like Well, hey, then you can still rate it on the lack of NPE You would just pick an army that has a high NPE, right? It just means that's not the objectively best army because overall NPE is not good for the game Like I don't I think that's a fairly non controversial say thing to say that like in an interactive game The more we lower the interactivity the worse the game gets, right? It's really I'm making bold claims here But like in general if your army showed up had no care for what the enemy did or how they moved or what dice They rolled and you just won we would all agree. That's a bad army One more thing here, maybe especially for the psychographic profile And the idea was that you should not be punished if you like the Look of an army and you are just not the type of player for it so if you like orcs and you're not a teamie and That you should be able to find something in your in the army as well and it's absolutely fine if an army is not In quotation marks good in the end because not all armies will fulfill all of the worlds because fire slayers Don't have that many right right and that doesn't make your army bad But the argument would be that an army that offers more here in this case would be better Yep. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong with having it like I By it was actually interesting to watch this to see what I scored all the armies because I played everything I play and everything I or I rated everything I play and everything I normally play against basically was what I would I rated, right? and See like things I have deep experience with we didn't do each of us kind of broke up and to handle different stuff that we were All comfortable with we didn't sit there and rate every single art army because some of it would just be guesswork we don't have the depth of experience, right and It was actually interesting to see like well, I really like this army, but it's a lower-scoring army Right, but it's it nonetheless that the features it does have appeal to me greatly Right and and that's where this breaks that that's where this is like we can say this thing is We're getting at something interesting about the nature of design that doesn't mean you can't like an army That's not hitting sort of max score or something like that. Okay All right, so that's play style Power power Overwhelming, okay, so this is the this is just a raw power level of the army, right? So the quality of its rules are they good does it interact with the current GHB? Right that kind of thing. Okay That's the sort of heaviest weighted thing in here score being up to 15 points And then you've got two others worth 10 performance does it win games and healthy position Does it have a reasonable chance of winning and losing games at the start of the game, right? Do you feel like when you're playing the army you have a shot? Okay? This is a fairly heavy section at 25 points, but it's not overwhelming But pretty simple wait, this is something I think we can all understand this tends to be the most common way That armies are talked about on shows like this, right? We almost spend 90% of our time talking about this Right is often what happens and then like another 8% talking about the previous section and then 2% everything else Okay, so that's just power Okay, you honest any thoughts about this one anything else we want to say here Um So here I put in most of the points because I think It's important. So in total if you have a look at the block Are we going to weigh the blocks already or are we going to do that? They'll see the blocks at the end when we get there. It's as to how they totally stack up. Yeah. Yeah, okay Yeah, here you can find some additional information in the Meta representation I looked at well hammer and I think another one. I forgot the name Yeah, you know like honest wargamer stats or woe hammer stats or like, you know Goon hammer web stats every so often like there's that the meta watch articles obviously that come out intermittently like that's that's all There's lots of stat things and this a lot of this could be sourced to that kind of thing, right? Okay very similar to Hey Laura, how you doing? Good to see you. I hope I hope everything is well over there and nottingham nottingham shire Okay, so Resonance This is worth five points. Does it match a real-life concept to create realism? And what we say real-life concept. We don't mean something that exists in the world What we mean is something that we can sort of there's a there's a way it squares You can picture it working like this army has a consistent theme and resonance to The human condition or to a society or to something we would experience and go yes that logically makes sense I understand how that thing can actually work Right, okay It's something that you already know from your everyday lives. It doesn't it can be fictional. It can be something That you just have seen in a lot of the rings. I don't know oxy know what they are And this is then a connection for you to identify with something I would argue Yep, absolutely. I mean when you think about something like death armies, I don't I've never seen a necromancer I've never seen a zombie in my real life, right, but we're all very familiar with the concept It's all very it sort of speaks to something about the human condition like oh the willingness to go like The fear of death what happens after you're dead all of this stuff right like there's there's resonance there to it Like this lust for power and being willing to sacrifice your own life to gain power that kind of thing, right? Okay in in one of the Grids I read also about the night haunt he linked some I think it was death metal videos that fit to the black metal videos that fit to the to the To the theme and I think this could be something as well that can be connected to it So it is a very broad range of what what you attribute to it. Yep Then you've got characteristics and this is really can it be summarized using a few words? So like and the idea here is not that that's it's not about being summarized in a few words It's it's that it has characteristics that are cohesive that you can look at and go This is a thing right and it has a way something for you to grip on to right away very simply You can look at it and go this is awesome because this right So it's just it's a handhold that you can easily grip on to and understand what it is. So that's worth five points So It's very funny Feel of the model range Do the models actually fit the characteristics as described? So the example here would be like storm cast as the stoic protectors of the realm, right? Do they feel like that thing these things have a Concept a theme do they actually seem to fit that theme well? And then though on the same way the feel of play so not just the model But also how it's playing right does it actually play in the way? It's described so it's got this this particular sense of how it's supposed to to act My easy example here would be something like iron jaws where it's just like a ready rarer and to go in your face force Can it actually play like that? The answer there is very much. Yes. So like they're going to score high on that particular category, right? Sorry So if the sense of fear much are just standing around I think they missed an opportunity there Exactly. Yep Is the model range compelling to paint and play to put on the table? Does it look good? Does it fit all of that kind of stuff? And then the psychographic profile does it actually play? So this is where we get into its expression of the psychographic profile as opposed to its capacity to suit Psychographic profiles, right? Does it actually play like their psychographic profiles? So like if this is meant to be a Timmy army Does it give a Timmy like experience in play right? If the story feels like a Timmy army if their model range reads like a Timmy army that kind of thing Does it actually hit that spot? Okay, so that's this section Lastly other the grab bag section. There's a couple of those so The cost of the collection pretty straightforward Does it have you know a reasonable amount of money to collect it? Can it is that wide secondary market availability? Does it like can it be painted easily for new painters? Like is there is it a hugely challenging army to get painted up? Especially if you start or whether you're new or or veteran alike. Is it just like a huge painting challenge? The variety It has a wide range of silhouettes forms materials like it's compelling That's where three points and then finally the painting opportunities It's interesting and compelling to paint for painters of all levels. It's also worth three points So minor ones on the end. Okay All right So there's I would like to answer questions. So Says what if some if it's something that can be made into a joke does that add to its excellence? I think so. So for me, for example Gets need to be funny and it's something that I Where why I don't like the new dawn bringers that much so far They are too serious and I like the old Empire figures with their puffy arms and all of those this weirdness and the colors and I think it belongs in there as well At least for me. So I think it yeah belongs Yep, okay Tyler anything we're missing here so far anything else you want to say about all of our criteria You're on mute Tyler. You're still muted. I think it's pretty good I like the delineation so that you can make assessments within the Subcategories right if you care more if you're up objectivity is more centered around Performance on the table as opposed to some of these other Factors that you might consider ancillary you can do that you can draw comparisons Within the subcategory. So I think that's cool as opposed to just looking at the overall score emphasis. Yep Absolutely, you can always you could evaluate on any any subsection, right? Like it doesn't have to be only total score. It's what you're saying, right? Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah, so I think that's interesting agreed Okay, so with that Then that means it's time for responses Bam, oh good We need to weigh it a bit So there was one idea when I put the points together The idea was that you have 60% of rules and 40% of models and paints and all of that Because the game needs to play well, then it is fun And you can play chess for example with just regular wooden figures and you will like it Because it's a good game and that is more important than the other aspects. I would argue Yeah, that's the general weighting is about 60 40. Yep Okay Cool, then let's get in to some Responses and scores Okay Tyler we're gonna start off with you here, I believe Okay, go ahead and bring this up The dupe that's gonna be a little bit of small text on people's screens, but hopefully that is Viewable on what I'm gonna do here is since we have This What we're gonna do is we're gonna take this should have hid this hide column. There we go So we can see your responses. We'll just look at the the name and then your response. There we go So you're starting out here. This is Wait, this is yeah Okay Is this you or is this a different Tyler? What is the faction gets Yeah, I think it's okay. This is you right to do gets I thought this was you all right Yeah, hit me up here Tyler. So take us through your results. I'm sorry if that's a little small everybody's screen It's a lot of text. I'm trying to fit in there. Hopefully everybody can just go full screen or something like that But we will take you through the scores. Okay So Tyler, what do you got here? I see I mean, let me let me hit your your responses real quick rules complexity 12 out of 13 Balance nine out of ten lack of NPE seven out of ten Variability of lists six out of eight internal power eight out of eight psychographic profile six out of six We'll just start there. So take us through your thoughts Tyler on on this one This is a pretty high rating so far 48 out of 55 For some reason. Oh, there it is. I couldn't find it. It was the last one. Yes This was the last one that I did First order on my spreadsheet. Okay, so I was surprised that sorry I didn't yeah, I was talking and thinking in my head. I was surprised at how high I came out with gets Spoilers. This was the highest of all of my own assessments Okay, so some of this may be off. I don't play the army. Some of it is based on trying to Provide an assessment of my sense of the gets play base. All right rules complexity 12 out of 13 If the orientation is how well will it cover the spectrum? Beginners experience competitive I think it does a good job with that. Trog armies are great for beginners. They seem great for beginners They're quite strong. They are not that complicated operate and then you have multiple options for competitive players So you can go stabbas you now one thing that I get into later on With the variability of list is that while I think it's I gave it six out of eight It's largely when but as we talked about in the show before the Subfactions don't have enough incentive for combined arms list for mixed arms for variety pack list Which obviously I have a huge bias toward combined arms variety pack list You know, it's like here's a sub-action for squigs here's a sub-action for drugs. I That could use a little bit more work The lack of MPE I dinged them a little bit on points because of the issues that this belt zone had when it came out I think it's undeniable that it had multiple issues We've gotten better. It's less so now. So I kind of put in the seven range There's still a few things that are annoying like the truck boss that will not die If his artifact continues to operate with a four plus ward He's got the vampire kind of healing just an absolute nightmare sometimes to to to work with the the balance I Remember when I looked at this battle, so I'm thinking that this was a high mark or one of the high marks in my mind for viable Variety or variability and list or you know war scrolls. Sure just so many war scrolls that seem playable Spiders could use a little bit more support Yeah, so I really hi that was definitely the highest of the general play style that I've given any of the factions that I looked at There you go. Okay Very nice and then competitive power level you gave quality of rules of 14 out of 15 performance of 7 out of 10 and Healthy position a 9 out of 10. Okay. Cool. Take us through Yeah, I could see the quality of rules maybe being a little lower That's one where I'm not a good person to make an assessment because I've literally never played gets but trying to quickly think through Them particularly in relation to this new GHB. They do have a number of locusts options and Torian locust They've got a number of units that can get hit by whore frost Yeah, as usual, you may be having a hard time casting that spell in this meta But if you can't get it off you've got a number of nice options there And then of course they have the now increasingly classic Teleport in the hero phase and try to cast merciless blizzard onto some unfortunate soul With hand of Gork and merciless blizzard It generally just strikes me as an army that has you know, I kind of understood Yannis you were going for quality of rules in general and then in relation to GH this current season, right? And so I again I think about the quality of their competitive roles. They needed to get dinged a little bit I'm sure there's some gets players out there that would say they've been dinged too hard with the point increases or the rules changes the performance Supports that they have gone down a little bit or still obviously early into the season The current win rate on woe hammer with like 30 only 35 or so games is 47% It's not a lot of games, you know, it's take that with grain of salt They were at 52% with a lot of data or pretty good amount of data last season Which is right around where you'd want them So I think they're one to watch where I could see them falling further potentially Hopefully not in general. I think they're exactly where they should be They're reasonably close to the ideal as far as an overall healthy position Yeah, they like some of the newer books are outperforming them soul blight OBR probably serif on starborn Corn is is really difficult. So but yeah, I think overall they're in a pretty good place cool very similar to all right What I learned feeling this out by the way was that this section is the most important to me Because most of the armies that I play personally scored really high on these kinds of categories Like this is clearly the reason I pick armies This feel this look this characteristics. This is the thing that gets me In the end the performance and stuff just didn't matter a lot of my armies were all over the place on that But most of my armies scored very high and never similar to your category that like I personally play We'll see when we get to my results But here you had realism five out of five Characteristics five out of five feel the model range four out of five feel of play nine out of ten Model range five out of five and then the psychographic profile nine out of ten So very high scoring category for them and I I honestly tend to agree with most that but I'll let you unpack that Yeah, I felt really strongly about about all of this the I mean the realism So You well, yeah, I don't want to get into it You've got you've got reason like that involved. Let's say religion With with the nature of this army so without you know, one can can take that as one once the characteristics so Easy, I mean the bad moon spoke to me bad moon rising that song goes through my head every time I think about this army The squigs gone wild is the greatest Name that I think they've ever come up with for a ability. So that's It's very memorable, you know Gorka morca that whole thing. So yeah, it's like I can readily think about all kinds of things I'm gonna think about this army feel the model range just brilliant The only thing that stands up to me is some of the spider kits look a little outdated The the main core spiders not too bad like not too bad, but certainly could use some love I think but overall Obviously, they've gotten a lot of love in recent years Really amazing range Feel the play again. This is based mostly on my feeling from other kids players Is that I I do recall reading a lot of love when this battle tone came out like finally finally they they knell this battle tone They you know, it feels right a lot of diversity Yeah, these different different options again, would have liked to see a little bit more of my darms the model range so Mason added here Mason knocks one of the people who've been filling some of this out Time also can be a noxious to paint does have many 25 million bases models that have to go into hordes So I think yeah, he recommended docking this a little bit. I didn't dock it at all That's so yeah, that's a fair point psychographic profile again kind of on the other comments Feels based on other people. It seems like it's scoring pretty highly Would have liked to see a little bit more on the the Johnny variety pack direction And yeah at one last thing Mason also had a comment on that the NPE He had mentioned that high wound density getting bonus on herd fling is annoying to face some buffs combos can feel too good to be true So, yeah, I don't really what do you guys or maybe Vince start with you? Do you think seven is too high on NPA for gets? No, I think that's exactly Okay Yeah, okay Yeah, and then other aspects Other aspects cost a collection out of five out of eight I agree there have been many box sets which can help but if you really want to fill out this army It can it can be pretty expensive, right? Because it's one of those big forces three different full sort of buildouts in it If you're gonna collect enough trolls to fill an army and enough squigs to field an army and enough Goblins to field an army right here effectively buying three different armies So it's like did you really want to buy yet? Like if you really want the full variability you're sort of buying 6,000 points of an army to play 2,000 points, right? Yeah, and so that can be a bit challenging So I agree with that you don't have to do that, but you oftentimes feel compelled to do that or or or something ease of collection Five out of six because it's an army that does take well to very quick paint jobs Totally agree with that a lot of this army is very fast to paint. I think back to Goob's introductory video that first blew up when he painted like a hundred little goblins in a sitting on the sticks you know that's There you go. It was like That's the whole story right there, right? Here's here's speed paint a hundred goblins boom bang You're ready to go and they look great on the table because you don't need to spend a lot of time on each individual little guy Right, they look awesome when they're on a big horde so and Then variety opportunities, I agree I mean you see everything from these guys from beginner painters having fun with them to Richard Gray taking them to Golden Demon Right, so like it runs the full gammon. Yeah Yeah, maybe it could have gone one lower on the cost collection Maybe five out of eight is a little high because yeah, if you do as you said if we really want to lean into the variety it's gonna get expensive and So yeah, I think you could argue, you know taking a few points off here and there I ended up with a hundred thirty one out a hundred fifty like I said go ahead and jump I mean that is my highest by a fair amount actually so I was a little surprised by that apparently I love gets and Need to pick up against army at some point Yeah, huge fan Huge fan of this book Hundred and thirty one is a massive score. Let me just say that like that is That's big I was surprised. Yeah, that's that's pretty great. All right. Let's see what else you got here We got lots of other people who rated So, you know, we've got we Tyler shared this out with some of his local group Let's just take it. We'll just take a look at these rather relatively quickly I'm because we're not who filled them out. So I can't get we can't give their thinking or anything like that So actually, let me start back here. We'll do Alec Alex B who had the Hide that column there we go should have hit all these columns beforehand. I should have thought of that. Um, he did it for FEC and Lots of lots of interesting results here with the rules complexity being eight out of 13 And so little to offer as far as units Balance eight out of ten lack of NP seven out of ten Variability of list five out of eight internal power five out of eight psychographic profile three out of six It's a pretty Timmy army not complex toolboxie enough to hit the other ones tend to agree with that 36 out of 55 Quality of rules it is strong in the current season 14 out of 15 Performance eight out of ten and healthy position seven out of ten. I would tend to agree with that I think this is actually an army that given its current set of rules It might be overperforming slightly might get docked a little yeah, but But I think we'll see some of that sort of Looney Tunes stuff brought in to it's in that It's our dude, it's in that janks zone, right that we've had Yes, yes rule rule new rules combinations equals jank. Yeah, yeah, so I'm sure that'll all get corrected Realism five out of five characteristics three out of five, which is and I get this This isn't like the characteristics thing makes sense to me because this is one of the like docking them on this We get part of the problem with FEC is there these it's supposed to be like they all have this grand delusion That like literally the grand delusion should be the easiest characteristic to grab on to and say that's the thing, right? The problem is is that that's not how the army actually looks because it was cobbled together out of old models Sure, right, so it's like oh these are the guys riding horses, and it's like are they really?  So it is actually like there's there's a bit of a disconnect there It's the coolest concept of an army But because we just implemented it out of out of a bunch of existing models that we tried to shove in and tell a New story around it doesn't really work if this got completely redesigned from the ground up around that delusion as we've seen a lot of the like underworlds kits and stuff get designed it works a lot better where they have like Bone scepters and and rusted, you know sort of like banged up crowns and things like this where there's like There's a coutrement that sells the grand illusion, right? They're they're not just completely off their rocker that like this one big guy thinks he's a guy a little guy in a horse And it's like But why though sure I Definitely disagree with that bill. I cannot disagree with that enough Okay, like I saw those new sculpts and and no no No, but if you like them, I'm happy for you teach their own Go ahead go ahead Jen your ideas That's my biggest problem with them as well. So I my first army was plutonium and I am I'm excited to to fuse them at some point in the future. I do like the idea So to say okay, those are just ghouls that that think they are noble houses and they ride on horses But it doesn't feel like this and the the models they have they are just not doing it for me because they are missing this I Would call it Rick. I don't know if this is the correct word regalia this this Something that signifies the delusion being made a little real whereas when you look at like I said all the new guys that they've sculpted Sense all have this Right they all give them some little signifier some little pieces of regalia or whatever that are like that feed the delusion right like They think it's a beautiful golden goblet, but actually it's a skull that they drank blood out of cool. Okay. Got it. I'm on board, right? Like yeah, I get that you know what I mean They're like there's there's something there like when they have something to quote hang on to I have something to hang on to If that makes sense Right Then the feel of the model range out of three out of five The feel of play out of seven out of ten the model range out of two out of five. Yeah, boy Do I agree with that one? And then the psychic perfect profile out of ten out of ten like yeah I mean it does it does play like what it is. It's a pretty Timmy army. It plays in a pretty Timmy way So I'm in for that. That's good Cost to collection. Oh absolutely. This is one of the most efficient effective like eight out of eight max score there ease of collection Some of them I agree with them like four out of six most of this takes contrast well I'm gonna be speed painted if you're doing a lot of the big beasties They can be pretty painful to both put together and paint because they are kind of crazy models Variety three out of three and then painting opportunities one out of three like yeah, that's that all that all checks out to me still coming in for that big score of a 111 out of 150 Not bad at all better than a lot of things I rated so it's still a very strong score for a VC here Yeah Okay Yeah, I Yeah, don't have a good enough feel for the army. Yeah, I have any real thoughts. Yannis. Does that do you have any feel for? How that score seems to you? I'd like a What I like here is that it's not that high because I think sometimes we are too biased and what I did I So you don't know that but I'm a teacher and that's how this all together and I made a great So I took the 150 points I said everything past 75 points is just a fail because Then something needs to be is wrong and I distributed the other points equally and this would be then in the area of a sea So 95 points and I think that fits maybe so there's there Bones I like the the ideas behind it, but there's still this There's something missing for it to be better. I don't know if this makes sense Oh, could you give the full? No, that's great. Could you give the full range? I'm curious I that actually would help certainly miss mother. What's in a what to be what to see what to do what to fail? Yeah, so I started with the fail would be 0 to 74 points and then 75 to 94 then 90 95 to 116 117 to 138 would be a B and 139 to 150 would be the a I did not expect I do not expect there to be a level armies because I think they're much There are far too many moving parts inside that will really make something perfect But I also be interested in what the chat is going to think about this So maybe they can rate their armies and their guesses as well So that we can in the end see who's going to win Absolutely. Yeah, we I will I will take a version of this spreadsheet so that people can score their own armies at home and And share it out after the show I'll link that down in the show notes I just need to basically make a sort of blank version of this so that and put it in a drop box location So people can can go grab it for themselves. So I'll link that also tweet it out So you can in my Twitter's right up there or whatever it's called now. I don't know Whatever that thing is So Let's take a look at some more. Let's let's go quick Let's just let's just take a look at some scores. I want to keep moving here We go because we got a lot of people who want to see some scores Tyler Coming back to you, buddy. Let's talk about IJ Iron Jaws. We're not talking about the whole army. We're talking about the whole book. We're talking about iron Jaws All right, hit me You got a 39 out of 55 total on the general play style So a little bit of a hit there mostly in variability of lists that took a big hit. Yeah, right? Yeah Yeah Yeah, I'll go quicker than last time. So rules complexity. I feel, you know, they're pretty strong great for winners some notable nuances for experienced players We've talked a lot about that with iron J. Iron Jaws over the years Balance seven out of ten largely true, but pigs versus Brutes is too obvious Pigs pigs pigs is what we've been seeing pigs and cabbages pigs and all crushes Could use some refinement. I think on the war bands to better differentiate them There's like three different war bands. I don't know whatever up like two or three different war bands Little more love. They were early on so they're not getting the love that like the war cry war bands at the beginning of late in a was Lack of MPE. Yes, but can punish new players. So especially this is new players like, you know, or not Familiar with all the mobility tricks. They're not Experienced with setting up a double turn Against iron Jaws not just a single turn But a double turn against iron Jaws because you've said many times right how many games can you win with iron Jaws? Where you catch that round two and round three double bottom two going around three and you just win the game out outright right there And so yeah, that that can be a little tricky to set up for yeah Very bit of a list huge problem in my mind throughout third edition.  Sometimes you'll see scratch crag nose or scratcher Have you guys see many IJ list with allies? I really haven't other than Popular to take the little goblin boy in there, but yeah Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but for the most part it's been pretty stick to itself Yeah, it's like a good profile. I'll say you really want to branch out.  So yeah, that's fair. Yeah Which could apply here like because I am such a Johnny like obviously I want more Johnny In iron Jaws, which means maybe I should be looking at big wall So they may not be but you know five out of six on that and then here I'll just keep it going competitive power level quality of rules. So eight out of 15 I thought it's getting a little long in the tooth relative to newer books still appreciate their simplicity Feeling in the moment here. Maybe that is that's probably too harsh actually. That's probably way too harsh on iron Jaws, I mean like if you focus on Just iron Jaws and what they were designed to do. They should be doing maybe that should be 12 out of 15 Events that's probably you want to split the difference to a 10. They're Tyler. Let's do 10. Yeah I think that's definitely too low Like they're not necessarily doing a whole lot of getting a whole lot of benefit in this current season But yeah, let's see performance. They've been bottom feeders for a while now Again, it's often pigs or bust I've played games with our boys and brutes. They're off right now in today's game You're not going to be getting hand of Gorkov even you're gonna get hand of Gorkov even less arguably this season And it was already previously not necessarily that reliable as way to have some mobility on your four inch move units Yeah, you've got Mighty destroyers to double move But it just it's a completely different feeling trying to play iron Jaws with with our boys and brutes than it is pigs I'm all crush you just don't have the mobility to compete meaningfully. It's it's really awkward So yeah, it's very I think very much hard mode one of the defining hard modes in the game right now One of the lowest win rates play rate has really dropped. I think for a lot of understandable reasons and Then verse millitude incredibly high 34 out of 40 like yeah, this embodies raw destruction Yeah, I mean like this is where there's there. This is where the army succeeding is right. Yeah 100% so a little dings on again like feel it play our boys and brutes just are off Like that's a discussion of why are they off that but they're just off the Our boys are getting along in the tooth as well with our models Like of old models they hold up a little bit better than your average old model but still a little rough and Then other aspects 17 out of 20 cost of collection as far as I know pretty solid You don't have to have a ton of models if they've been around for a long time. Yeah, they've had lots of good deals They're very available secondhand. There's been lots of big boxes with great discounts and good build to them. Yeah Absolutely ease of collection is their variety Not it but again, it's like are you talking them unreasonably because Part of their selling point is that they don't like they're not designed to have a lot of variety That's the nature of the army. So maybe I should have put that at a two out of three But you know, give us give us big pig when we're getting it. Maybe that'll go to a three Exactly.  It's that easy right so, yeah, it's putting the difference we go up to a 106 out of 150 which was you know again a lot of that is is as you mentioned it getting hit on the competitive Plat power level right now Like it's it's struggling hard and a little bit on the play style So a solid C Is where that came? Yeah memory serves. Is that right? Did I get it right? I think so. Yeah. Yeah solid C Okay, you honest any any thoughts on on the iron jaws. How you feeling about that score? Yeah, I've got a couple of thoughts and yesterday I talked with Benny about them and so I haven't played a man I haven't played many games of age of signal in total So I am a complete beginner and I always play with Benny and he's got iron jaws and he loves them I love them for many reasons because they look amazing, but I think What you said about the feel of play for the art boys and the brutes We talked about you play pigs and the more crush them And you wouldn't take the brutes because they don't have this function So they look like they should be this Anvil unit that you then flank into with the pigs maybe but I don't do that I'm sorry again. No, they they fall over against most everything nowadays. Yeah Yeah, the same for the art boys somehow. They just don't have a role even then letting them sit on objectives You would rather take the art boy warband still maybe instead of them And I think there you would have to change something and that might be what you mean with they feel off because I agree We agreed there yesterday as well Yeah, yeah And otherwise a few things that we really liked about them, especially for the ease of collection and cost of collection Yeah Do a Lot just by kid bashing them you can take 40k models you can take so what we did we Playing orcs and goblins when we were 15 So we had boxes of them laying around and then you could build them as art boys Or you can use their heads on other models that you can find and I think that's a big bonus for them as well So maybe it's the same for the goblins But here even more because you've got this big Big yeah Basketful of 40k orcs that you can still use sure. Yeah Yeah, I mean a lot of the beast nag as especially that came out recently are also very very directly droppable in this absolutely, I Don't know if you've seen them. There's a wonderful Ogre army transformed into surfer orcs So they took the belly the Ogre body and then the orc had amazing literally Tom would be all about surfer surfer orcs from ogres. All right. Let's talk about corn. This was Mason, right? Who filled this out? Mason ox. Yeah, okay so Rules complexity getting a 12 out of 13. It is a complex army, but it has a lot of toolbox It plays well into most seasons. It has a lot of anti stuff Balance six out of ten So we got we do have some challenges there, right up for obvious reasons. There are some just big whiffs in the book Lack of NPE Six out of ten. I agree. This can sometimes feel like gotcha hammer You get, you know, murder lusted at the wrong time or something like that, right? Six might be a little lower than I would have scored him, but I get where he's coming from Okay, I get where he's coming from. This is a corn player. Correct. I Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, and I'm not saying I didn't say anything I'm tired of getting in trouble with corn players. I haven't said anything Vince said everything just there corn players Leave me alone. That's right Oh, hey, Mason's in the chat. All right, Mason, if I say anything wrong, no, no, you're good, buddy If I say anything wrong to your opinion, feel free to drop in the chat in the comments there in the chat and correct me But like I think your your score is all makes sense to me variability of lists Yeah, that makes sense. It's not quite where we'd want it to be especially because of some of the units not having the viability we would want The personally, I don't agree with that. I would personally put that at like a six out of eight I do feel like I'm seeing a decent amount of variety. Certainly not like that's that's half off Yeah, I would put that at a six like, you know, you like when I see I'm gonna Constantinous is Constantinous He's an amazing corn player. He's been playing the army forever. He's a great list writer, but I like Get, you know, get to get some good feels going whenever I see a Constantinous corn list because the man's writing these beautiful Highlander, you know separately all like 12 different worst-goals Vincent. It's a thing of beauty. Alright, look, I understand Internal power seven out of eight needs almost no support really likes to be monocorn.  They're not all it's all possible But not great. So, okay Competitive power level quality of the rules 10 out of 15 Performance 8 out of 10 and healthy position 7 out of 10, okay Then we personally would I would go a little higher on the quality of rules including just overall the quality of rules and and this season I think they're Mason was a heartbreak here. He's a rough scorer He's not soft This season now, it's great Mason's down here using decimal points. Oh my goodness. What is this nice? He's getting into the half points couldn't couldn't decide between two and a three Realism four out of five Characteristics three out of five. See I I think that's what I've been when I'd score. I'm a five out of five four I think corn has one of the best characteristics in the whole thing. So so Mason this is the point I'm gonna draw like literally people shouting blood for the blood god skulls for the throne of corn. It's like the most Say other than just shouting. Why it is the the most Like used Warhammer phrase, right? Like it is part and parcel of how we think about this game It's in literally the DNA of Warhammer and the you know, it fits. So I that's that's what I'd say And then so I would have scored him higher than that I would have gone the full five out of five personal take feel of the model range two and a half this guy Feel of play six out of ten model range four out of five and psychographic profile six out of ten He said I'd expect them to feel very spike like and they feel very unspike I totally get that they are they do still remain quite a Johnny army actually despite changing if anything now They're quite Johnny Timmy as a matter of fact rather than leading much into Spike all Yeah, if you had a Johnny bias it's corn player filling this out. They're gonna on the burst of millitude It's gonna be a lot higher than what he was given But it's Understandable why he scored it the way that did through that lens as you've commented on many many times about yeah The lack of kind of spikiness or to or sorry Timmy-ness of the yeah army Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I've got a friend who's a pretty Timmy ish player and has a great time with this corn now in the new Book like really loves it right loves his bloodthirsters and you know just taking some cool units of like Skull crushers or big blood warrior blocks and stuff like that and feels pretty good about it, right? Like it's he's like yeah, I like how this plays, you know, it's so There you go, and then cost of collection you know seven out of eight totally agree with that corn again being a very affordable army ease of collection five out of six Some of the models in here are quite annoying to paint like blood warriors But there's a lot of easy paints in this that are very friendly to new people the blood Reavers your Most of your demons just basically any of the demons are like really fast and easy and fun to paint That kind of thing and then variety two out of three and painting opportunities three out of three. Yep Okay So for a total of a hundred nine and a half Can't forget that half Out of fifty for a solid C score. All right. How do we all feel about that one? That that felt low to me. I would have bumped this one up Probably at least plus ten. I Really like I mean despite My whinging over the the months about the nature of a certain mechanic in this battle tone that that did get hit I love this book for the most part, which you know, it fits in my biases Johnny biases So yeah, personally, I would have given this Maybe plus 10 maybe around 120. Sure. I think you might have the problem that we talked about where this might be a Good book in its own that they are because there's something missing maybe for psychographic profiles And that's missing that it just is not there to fulfill So it is good in itself, but not that big of a route and not there's not this big of a variety maybe Okay, very good And Mason said I love the army. I don't think the scoring reflects that as much Mason You're a tough score. You're tough. You're a tough grader and I respect it. I respect it, sir Okay, we've got some other corns for us. I'm sure somewhere. Okay So let's See we got a lot to choose from take a look at David. So this is David C. This is another one of your people, right? Yeah, David Costa with hammer of war battery ports par excellence Now here we're doing LRL just an expedited I'm gonna jump because we I want to make sure we touch on a lot of armies On the general play style a 41 out of 55 and we'll look at you know It's kind of kind of just took some little hits throughout on LRL on Lumineth realm lords So no no big sections where there was really like a lot missing, right? It's just all it's all off, right? Mm-hmm Um quality of rules 32 out of 35 That's tough. I'm not sure I'd agree with that honestly in the current season. I think they've been sliding down But but we'll see that's it that's a that's a real belief in LRL's current power that I don't have I'm not sure the stats would bear that out Though I do think if I can the hands of a good player. They're very strong go for it Yeah, but if while I'm thinking about it because I'll forget it You honest on all of this so when I was thinking about LRL it stood out to me, right, right? We've got rules complexity in a general play style then we've got a quality of rules under this notion of competitive power level. I Guess rule what I'm thinking about is Intended to be covered in rules complexity But at least at the time in my mind it felt maybe it is I'm just thinking about Right like the complexity All of these issues challenges with no, I guess you're as I'm thinking about it It does it has covered pretty well in rules complexity as well as I just think that he probably scored them a little too high for my taste 10 out of 13 because yeah, it's very difficult for beginner I think to play this army even for more, you know relatively experienced players. I I just basically said a bunch of nothing there because I'm realizing that yeah rules complexity does probably cover what I was feeling So apologies for that So when I read this I so I haven't played them. I haven't played again, but that's what I caught from your shows It sounded to me as a beginner Like it would be too much for me So, yeah, you would need to take out at least in my opinion, but I haven't tried it and beginner It sounds like there's too much synergy. I think I would then just go online Download a list and use that and even then I'm not sure if I could pull that off because you mix magic and shooting and You have to understand what a castle is I that took me quite a while and until Maybe how to do something against it and so on and so I felt that this Might be too much for me personally mm-hmm Okay For similar to scoring up to a 37 out of 40 not missing many points there Just a couple on the psychographic profile and then other aspects took a little bit of doc on the cost of collection I would have docked that down a little more some of this this army is pretty expensive Yeah collection variety and painting opportunities it gets us to a total of 110 points Okay So That's where we that's where we end up at Still a solid C right in line with everything else there right in line with with the past two we've looked at okay Yeah, I said it probably would have docked a little more points personally including Look at that later Sure That if you want to go into this area of a B I think it's important that you are in the fat middle of Balance as well so that it's not going to be most powerful army. That is in the in the top categories I think sure that will have who offer the most and who have an internal balance that works I think we would yeah of them later. I agree. All right. Let's take a look here at some night haunt So again, let me go ahead and hide this we go. All right, so night haunt scoring a 34 out of 55 on the total points here For a general play style taking the biggest hit on rules complexity and balance both of those track to me And then competitive power level 21 out of 35 taking a massive hit on the quality of rules You know like yep It's it's rough. It's rough to be a ghosty boy in the current season. Let's not it's not kid ourselves Right, these guys are you're it?  Sure again. That's that's because it's You know like Maybe that's that's like if you're that that's that's because you're Nate not because it's night haunt Yeah, absolutely, right All right for similar to scoring very high on and that I completely agree with this is another one of those armies That is an absolute home run on the very similitude the like it even playing against them can often feel like you're caught in a In a myriad Experience of different emotions of grief and sadness and loss and so You know, but but just like the way these models are and their story behind them and the grab them and all this stuff like it's just yeah, it's It's really they did such a fantastic job with this so I very much enjoy I appreciate that score I I Sorry, I very much enjoyed the Description of the characteristics there were so I've painted last year painted something like a hundred thirty nine night haunts or all of those that I had And and I didn't notice this this then but he describes them as prisoners and then you can see all of the elements in the Models as well especially for the chain rafts who all have those chains and yeah, I really enjoyed the descriptions there Yeah, absolutely. Yeah The chains we wear were forged in life Scrooge. Okay, so And then finally cost of collection seven out of eight easy collection four out of six variety two out of three and painting opportunities Three out of three again. There's another one of those things. That's actually great for new painters To think we can make it look great, but you also see I keep using the example But he keeps taking him to Golden Demon you see Richard Gray taking a night haunt to Golden Demon.  Yeah, thanks to Alex Bellinger for this one in the Flesher courts Yeah, with yeah, appreciate it Alex. Very nice. Now. Let's do a fun back-to-back All right, everybody's everybody ready for a quick back-to-back comparison so we can see how two different people View the army because again, none. No one of these is meant to be objective, right? It's about it's about everybody doing this individually and the truth that that brings so Nurgle this is from Mason All right, so We're just gonna I'm just gonna scroll this all the way down Mason scoring up Nurgle at a hundred and twenty two out of a hundred and fifty Moving firmly into the B territory Okay 46 out of 55 In the general play style with some with some really good explanations there of why The competitive power level 25 out of 35 Not sure I agree with that Nurgle has been on a downward slide and I think it will continue to be unless helped But still it can have some some engine certainly makes for interesting games for similar to 36 out of 40 extremely strong again completely agree on that And then cost of sorry the other aspects so like cost and the painting opportunities Very very very high score in this category and yet again. I agree in fact, I would have put the The Cost of collection up at probably a six out of eight just because a lot of these models have been around for a while And you can't get them secondhand pretty easy Oh, there are some of the elite kids that are expensive and I do agree with that too So but I would have gone six out of eight, but this is minor quibbling this puts it into the B range So before we talk about it, that's that's Mason score Okay, so Mason had a hundred and twenty two now now Let's talk about known Nurgle lover Tyler and his scoring right next boom Let's hide this description down here.  You were a little bit lower in the play style All right about the same place in competitive power level But then you were much higher in the other aspects and a tiny bit higher in the versimilitude You came out to about the same place Irrelevantly different a hundred twenty four versus a hundred twenty two again when we're in these like one or two point differences There really isn't anything that can be said there other than we've got some we've got some consistency We got multiple parties all saying that that this is a firm B army Okay. Yeah What do you guys think? I Tend to agree. I think when you look at this army holistically the only real short spot of this Honestly is in the current season performance Which has been on like a down trend because the meta is moving away from being able to want to play these five round Attrition games, right? There's a lot more model restore More model regeneration things like that and those kinds of things really hurt There's a lot more slice and dice through wards and treat them like they don't exist Which really hurts nergal right all that stuff chips away at their win rate and their their viability in the current season But like on every other thing here Yeah, mm-hmm like I'm in right and that's that's sort of a fluke of the current time as much as it is anything That's also that's also we should state that the competitive power level the interesting thing about that one Is it's also the most mobile? Right like one battle scroll published tomorrow could change your perception of the competitive power level of it Right sure Yeah, so yeah, yes. What do you think with nergal? I think I have to agree. So it's a bit like this with Santa Fe amount So if they just if you just can't play them for a season Yeah, you will just it would they will be irrelevant for the Evaluation so you always have to check in and see how they might have changed. I love nergal I really like the models. I think so I don't remember 100% what they changed, but they had this Didn't they have something like a wheel this mechanic? Yeah, I go I think I really like that and I think especially on the very similar to level That's how you should do it and then the rest would change that's fine Yep, so I think they might be on my list of armies at some point as well Fantastic yeah Very friendly I didn't say but very friendly to new painters and high-level painters alike again This is one of those things that you see it You see nergal models in Golden Demon and taking best in category and best in show and all that stuff all the time Constantly mm-hmm constantly constantly constantly. I Remember some lenses didn't he paint a big clean one clean one one of those sure did yep We have been seeing a small number of people get some results early on here the play rate is down Raymond Lane comes to mind.  That's cheating Raymond Not allowed. You should not have rats in nergal list I don't care if they have the nergal keyword and then he had it was a it was a fascinating list But so yeah, you have some options that you can lean into For my personal taste they often involved doing things that I don't particularly like to do But that's that's fine. We're all different butterflies sure By the way, be obviously playclaws went down in points This is adjacent to what we're talking about but I started I played a game with that and started try I tried out a couple Playclaws, you know what? Didn't hate him Didn't hate him. They did they did all right. They're pretty interesting right now Yeah, we might have finally found the points where I'm like, okay I might be a buyer now. That's for a different show. All right. Let's do another back-to-back compare. Shall we? Let's talk about Alex and Mason who both did soul blight grave lords SBG the terror of the current season. Let's take a look here So here we've got a 45 out of 55 on general play style 26 out of 35 on competitive power level. This is from Alex by the way 35 out of 40 and a 13 out of 20 on the other aspects for a total score of 119 which I believe is like the bottom of B Right that sits us in kind of right at the bottom of B that right. Yeah Okay, let me tell you what's wrong here though quality of rules 12 out of 15 Sure sure but like performance 10 out of 10. No, this is an army that goes around the other side and gets docked It's an over performer Right, sir. It's too strong Right. Well, yeah, I I guess it's obviously it's not necessary I didn't find it necessarily clear in the way that we were doing this that that is what you should have concluded And how you would score sure it's like I don't think the 10 out of 10 The best possible score is like if an army had an 80% win rate that would be out of bounds, right? Like not that this does I'm not saying that I'm just saying like that would mean your performance is like It's that's not a good performance. That's bad Right. Good performance is you're in the middle of the For what it's worth man, I to me at least the honest correct But that's why you have healthy position what Vince is talking about goes in healthy position Performance is a pure assessment for better or worse of performance if it so happens that they're killing, you know They're destroying the world. Okay, it's gonna be a 10 out of 10 and then healthy position You've got to dock them because they're destroying the world That's fair and he did give him a four out of ten there to be to be fair So, yeah, okay, I could I could see that I got when I was thinking about it I was kind of thinking about performance as like it doesn't win games Yes, but like there's a point where that becomes bad was sort of what was in my head, right? But I you're right. I might be layering that on there. So good clarification. Good clarification This might also be connected a bit to the quality of rules because only because you win a rule is not necessarily good So you could maybe move it around a bit, but I think it would come out to come out the same in the end But overall a very strong score for soul blight here from Alex and I mean obviously it is a great army again We haven't talked soul blight yet, but you know, it's like it's it's a very compelling army It has that classic undead hammer horror You know monster movie feel that that a lot of people like resonates and all of that the models are very friendly to new players The army is very strong too strong like straight up too strong right now Needs it needs like nerfed Just like it needs punched in the face hard again. It was not punched hard enough So punch it again But there you go, but at 119 now, let's take a look at how Mason scored it So let's take a look over here So Mason going for the 49 out of 55 on the general play style 30 out of 35 didn't dock as hard on the healthy position So so little not not quite as that's sort of not quite taken that same apparently We're just we're just good with like the whatever insane win rate they have And then 30 out of 40 on versimilitude and 17 out of 20 on other aspects But still ending at a pretty similar place 126 Versus 119 still firmly in the B category space sort of that the low-mid range of B there mid to low And so there we go Not not too bad again pretty pretty close alignment overall right some different feelings on some of the different areas But coming to about the same place there you go Okay Cool anything else we want to say about SBG the soul blight graveler You've lost the battle in the acronym. That's for sure my friends. Everybody is on SBG L Yeah, just trying to use SBG L You will see that corrected on my on my sheet, that's for sure They first started filling out the forms for myself I thought about who do I think is going to win so overall who will have the most I think they were One of those who I thought okay, they might be the winners tonight more or less As of the moderated because of how they have performed so far in the last Meta, I think they were quite quite good as well And even for cost of collection There's the few cursed cities around so that you can at least start a bit and Yeah, and skeletons you will find more than you need So they were one of my My favorite so far Yeah, I think if we get them a little more inbounds on the competitive power level That would be true. I would agree with that. Yeah, I think it's obviously where they're at there still has been said a little high starting with zombies spam and the There's some meaningful MPE as well that I think is appropriate to get docked on surprise surprise I'm saying that I've not it's it can be brutal playing against soul blight With some of their rules mechanics. Just that's the reality So yeah, I think it's appropriate to get some dock there. Yeah, which both of these guys did. Yeah hit that pretty hard Very good. All right Let's uh, let's keep moving So next up Let's take it. Let's take a quick journey into OBR. Shall we we'll just let's take a look at the scoring here I'm curious as to how they work out So, let's take a look at Alex's OBR rating I'm gonna have to get Brendan to fill this out for OBR as well General playstyle 38 out of 55. So taking some strong hits there, especially in the lack of NPE. That was the big big big hit there and I completely agree.  He's a good grader Okay, I covered all the deaf and he's he plays all of them hardcore death player every faction. So yeah, pretty honest with a lot of this absolutely Yep, and then Taking that hit that hard hit on the on the healthy position move two by six and more discard I dare you I agree. That's a four out of ten on a mortis guard alone Very high score on verisimilitude, which I would act which I would tend to agree with I think that's right and then other aspects The cost of collection being the main hit but other than that scoring pretty decently which I agree with that completely as well for a total score of a hundred and fifteen out of a hundred and fifty which I believe puts us at the very top of See basically, it's like a C plus Right. I think that's right Yeah, very good Okay So another army that could probably use some adjustments we'll say on the competitive power level But overall, yeah Looks good. Yeah, I liked his dock of the internal internal balance is off the like The crawler and not yeah crawler. You don't see a whole lot of you're not seeing as many more tech guard I'm particularly after the Understandable hit but probably too hard of a hit on the what the what's up that the Gothins are harvester The so yeah the internal balance is just off. I like this point about It's just basically a pure spike book at this point. Yeah, like it's just all about raw efficiency, which Okay, that's a little boring Like yeah, that's that's fine to be a little spike or a decent, you know primary spike But let's get let's get some love for the other options. So yeah, it's really doing a batch out with that right now Yeah, a bit of a mess, but but still yeah It was really picking up a lot of points in the first millitudes and the other aspects Yep, as well as obviously the competitiveness quality of rules performance Okay, let's do another back-to-back Let's talk about slaves to darkness Tyler we're gonna start with you then we'll check your work against against Travis's rating. So here we go 41 out of 55 on the general play style 24 out of 35 on the competitive power level Very similar to got the 35 out of 40 and then the painting opportunities 20 out of 20 Very easy army to collect to paint to all that stuff and just a heck of a lot of fun for a total score of 120 out of 150 basically falling right at the bottom of the B So but but into that B level I think I think I think you might have undercut them there I think this is one of my highest rated armies when we look over at my scores, but I don't disagree I think I end up in the same place as you also as a bee.  Let's do Travis. Okay, so then Travis Uh We'll hide this okay 43 out of 55 on the general play style Max score Travis on the competitive power level max score Well boy, oh boy that that feels not correct given their current situation and win rates I don't think that is true at all Travis that that no 37 out of 40 and then other aspects 20 out of 20 Travis This is this is a guy who really loves slaves to darkness a hundred and 35 I think that actually slides it. He's he's giving him an A. I believe that's lighting him up into a territory That might be a bit strong. That might be a bit strong Look look the man. He's my I love him. He's riding incredibly high He had his first 4-1 at bug eater GT with the abomination that is Bellicor and Archeontag team So his perspective is completely a skew right? You're just gonna have to let it go. You have to forgive him on that Yes, he's not yet come back down to earth Somebody's got to get this guy back down in the out of the stratosphere with that 35 out of 35 on competitive. Holy Moses Okay Very good. What else do we want to say about S2D? Okay, well other than that and Trav being out of his mind Sure, I just in general, but especially with the his score on slaves of darkness here The where did I dock them? I docked them on performance. So 44% rate so far Not too bad. You know a little outside of the fat middle Experience players good list can punch up, you know, you're you still see spike Efficiency list 2x6 Vanguard 10 cast nights nights the empty throne or name your different variations thereof that can perform reasonably well The healthy position. Yeah, it's it's a little rough I mean, it's one of the more fair armies right now Which I think might heighten some of the disparity between your average, you know, quote-unquote average players versus Quote-unquote whatever experience better. Have you want to characterize the difference there in players? And so yeah 24 out of 35 for me on that I I thought you know looking back to it. Obviously, we had a glowing review in general I would say with that original tone. I still think it's one of the best books. They've written in 3.0. I stand behind that Just there's there's there's some internal balance issues, but that's because of the number. Yeah Exactly, so I guess maybe that's that's feeling a little more pronounced because yeah, I would have thought that When we read that book, I thought we were going to see more Variety and less than we have ended up seeing now to some degree There is a potential that slaves is like other armies like stormcast where it just so happens the actual Potential variety is higher than what you what we've seen for the most part So there's a little bit of that going on, but yeah, I do feel like lesion of the first prince again, obviously the Johnny bias There needs to be more lesion less played. I think there is gas there That not enough people have have explored With this emphasis on spike efficiency, but in general, yeah a little disappointed on that So yeah, I was a little lower than I would have wanted to be because I think it is an amazing battle to him You honestly got any thoughts on slaves so I can shut up and stop rambling So Mainly on the painting and the various similitude aspects those the slaves were one of those Contenders for the yeah for the best army in the end for me as well Yeah, I was surprised by the performance a bit Mm-hmm, and I think that's where they lose a few points But generally speaking I think a lot of things go right here basically Similitude I really like and I think it's for a lot of players They can find something in there in the variety that they have you have got the chaos warriors You can go I think you can add demons as well and so on you can What I really enjoyed so I built one list for them that you could give this mark of chaos to a unit It was in 2.0 where you could I think say this unit is has the mark of chaos of corn I did I did like that in terms of the Other aspects I think they are quite expensive You will find quite a bit on the secondary market here in Germany But I think the bigger units and you might want to have Balakor in there and he is expensive And at least to me in the ease of collection Same for the corn as well. I think painting is difficult at least to me still Mm-hmm so that you are happy with it and painting faces is difficult and they have those tiny eyes and same trim and I think that a Beginner painter can do it, but they would then I usually try to so when I started I went for the box art and they're trying to paint this gold from everywhere and that is not that easy Yeah, you got some support in the chat for for that perspective. Yeah, so I could see maybe docking a little bit on that Yeah, yep Okay Let's jump over here to storm cast Eternals. We just talked about this army a great deal Tyler Let's see how you scored them out. So 45 out of 55 on general play style 20 out of 35 on competitive power level 29 out of 40 on various similitude and then 20 out of 20 on the other aspects certainly this is one of the easier armies to collect to paint and that kind of For a total score of a hundred and fourteen out of a hundred and fifty Firmly in the C category upper area of that range Okay Okay, how's it feel to you? It feels right Yeah, it feels right you hit them like you hit them hard on the performance in the healthy position And that all feels correct same with the quality of rules We know there's a big internal balance problem in the book, right? It's aged right it feels in there It isn't it like it's it's nominally higher scored than some of the army or other armies We've talked about that have also come in at like a hundred and ten a hundred and eleven and that feels a little off But that being said it is a pretty great army in a lot of aspects when we when you look at it holistically So it like it being an effectively The same range right of that middle C territory feels feels very correct to me Okay, cool. Yeah, I'm scoring the variability of less maybe higher than average If we were to do this right and as an aggregate a lot of others They might score a little bit lower because I do have this view that the on paper a viable variety variability variety is higher than what we've observed with a lot of list and Yeah, the but yeah psychographic profiles Across the board Timmy dragons Johnny combined arm syndrome displays spike You do have raw efficiency options, which again We see a lot of lists that are how many hammers can I fit into a list? But then they don't have enough balance for getting battle tactics or holding objectives or blah blah blah or screens the Yeah quality of roles lots of duds you said Unfortunately, but I do like that a lot of the rules are on the war scrolls So actually personally we talked about that a little bit before events I still love that about this battle to them compared to some of these others because in my mind It does make it a little more adaptable or readily adaptable across seasons where you do have so much That's just on the war scrolls themselves, but that's A marmite take like some people hate that I think I remember Rob early on talking about that, right? Like there's a Darren early on Darren Watson early on was talking about some of this like where where is the complexity? Like all this has been removed. It's all in the war scrolls now. There's not enough. Yeah outside of the war scrolls We've gotten back to that a little bit. That's definitely not true Not true. Yeah, exactly which to me is anyway I always we I find that an interesting discussion because I think there's a case to support that original view of actually Maybe we had it better than we realized early on with with the nature that earlier That earlier orientation But yeah, only lunatics like Darren Watson would have complained about it because Darren wants a bunch of ridiculous Nonsense because he's like the emblematic Johnny By the way, I love you and you're an amazing human being and like he's truly he's truly one of the best of us But like so what he likes it just he must understand his tastes are outside the norm Of like if there's a fat middle of taste he's outside of it Okay, as far as that rules complexity goes, okay Let's let's go through a couple here pretty quick just to get some scores out for people. So Mason scoring out Seraphon our first Seraphon scoring 48 out of 55 on playstyle 30 out of 35 on performance 30 you know one of the problems is rating Seraphon is what are you rating? Are you rating Starborn? You're rating coalesce is very different Experiences there when you talk about like performance and healthy position and quality of rules Boy is that gonna be like if I was scoring with Starborn in mind I'd have a very different score set that I scored with coalesced in mind So very similar to 30 out of 40 and then we got another Mason loves them dots You love them. You love that that that decimal point Mason Six and a half on the cost of collection six and a half For a total score of 124 and a half out of 50 firmly into the B territory Ultimately, I think that feels pretty correct to me I think that I Think Mason was a little bit hard or a little bit softer on competitive power level than I would have been I would have done some a little more on healthy position And then I think he was a little bit harder than I would have been on some of the very similar to stuff But again, I tend to think of it more through a coalesce lens And so it's like yeah tough to say there Yeah, I think if you average it out This book will come out as a C in that C range as opposed to you take the average of coalesced and Starborn You'll get to see I think every like every force people to say score this as though you're playing coal Are you as though it's the coalesce side of the book or score this? Yeah, it's the star born side of the book. Yeah, yeah Yes, I think even with the hits on Starborn and even setting aside the through the battle score Even setting aside the newfound love for lizards and then carnets. It's still quite strong what you can do your starborn is quite good and Coalesce. Yeah, it's still struggling. I feel play folks play a croak crawl and coalesce Run minimum 10 star a scar 15 20 croak right in the middle of them Push them up the board hang out in the middle of the battlefield think of him like of a lizard go trick And just have a great time.  I don't understand why more coalesce players don't I think that's quite strong And I just barely want to play stompy stompy monsters Tyler That's we didn't we didn't get in his coalesce game to run a dead frog and a bunch of sorus bodyguards We were running this game because we wanted to skink chief on a second on charging forward and getting stompy on people homie Okay, that's that's what this is It's wrong you got that you're making a spike appeal to the Timmy crowd Clearly I have yet to see a single coalesce croak crawl. Yeah Let's let's see it. All right, Janice. What do you think about seraphon in this rating? Is this feel too high or anything? No, I think they for me. They were one of the contenders as well Okay, I don't know about the competitive power level, but I think all of the rest works very well They a couple of days ago. They showed the box set the new one. I forgot the name of those Not oh Vanguard boxes. Yeah Vanguard and I looked at it with a friend and we loved all of the models So the gray box. Yeah, and if I see that and those new versions of them Yeah, amazing. So that's why it might be a bit higher here Yeah, okay, yeah Still I mean solid B territory seems good to me. All right slanesh David C. So this is a Tyler, this is a person out of your group here, right? Yeah hammer of war David. Yeah, that's right hammer of war David. So 50 out of 55 on general play style. Oh, I feel we're gonna come to different David we are going to come to very different places. I think David's in the chat right now Yeah, yes, there is We're gonna we're gonna end up with very different lives on this one. Okay Cool Lack of NPE 8 out of 10. I think slanesh is generally fun to play with and against silence Okay, yeah, how many how many bliss bar bar chers are you are you shut up with? For me zero and it's still annoying. Would you like a die? Would you like a die? Would you like a die? Would you like a die? Yeah, nobody really loves that It y'all man it Ruthen Wharton quick words are hard. Yeah, that gets old Don't worry, I'm gonna do a slanesh one too. I I have that I just I'm gonna do mine at the end and you know, honestly I'll go through all bars at the end here and just kind of show some scores of how we rated them Okay Competitive power level 31 out of 35 They probably need to get knocked down a little on the healthy position. They're probably still a little too strong as like the apparently Preeminent gunline in the game right now Somehow that's true. I didn't realize that slanesh was where you went if you wanted ranged power That makes sense completely logical. So and then Very similar to 35 out of 40 I Feels pretty good. I I would probably I think mine he came out even higher But definitely I think Dave and I are lying there and then the other aspects Yeah, I think the cost collection is pretty expensive some of this the new kits especially especially are pretty high I might I don't know if I'm on a six or a five for this We'll see when I when I score but but I'm generally in the same sort of space as far as variety and painting opportunities and stuff like that Yeah, a hundred percent and then they should take aside them somewhat of a hit on ease of collection because they're they're fiddly bed land small and very detailed And yeah, and so David comes to a total of 116 out of 150. Is that right? That's that that's the top Is that the bottom of B or the top of C? I don't remember would be at the top of C Top of C All right. Well, you know what David might have been judged too quickly I think we might end up in actually the same place, but we'll see We'll see you and I might be more aligned than you think Okay All right, and then lastly here for our sheet. Let's take a look at sylvaneth and we'll jump into some some some just summary ones Uh, sylvaneth tyler would be interested to get your your take on this one as you are and forever sylvaneth player No matter whether you're playing them or not This is our buddy david side bottom who did uh the sylvaneth show with us Last show that we did awesome guy. Yeah, great dude 42 out of 55 on general play style 27 out of 35 on competitive power level taking the biggest hit on the performance section But having a very high marks on healthy position Uh, what would that np score get? 8 out of 10 or 3 out of 10? Good. Okay. Uh, fantastic You know david, I knew I liked the cut of that guy's jib. Okay That's a man who's honest because sylvaneth are npe machines until you learn what you're like You gotta until you like sort of learn the mechanics of the rhub gold bird machine They're trying to set up right But like for most players who play them and don't play sylvaneth often enough to learn it is an awful experience Yeah brutal on average newer players. Yeah, yeah Uh Versimilitude getting a 44 with four bonus points For oakenbrow alone basically and I'm with that. I grant those four bonus points. It is awarded Oakenbrow is the way all all true sylvaneth players play oakenbrow and then Other aspects getting a 15 out of 20 for a total score of 128 out of 150 One of the higher scoring armies we've had Coming in in a solid b territory there Uh, so there we go. He's he's cheating a little bit by making full use of the bonus He was making please the bonus points. Yes getting a full eight points So even without the bonus, he's still out of b. He's still out of b Yeah, yeah What do you think that's right to me personally? Yeah, so I'll try to go so rose complexity seven and a 13 that feels about right The wide degree plus d it is harder for newer players And balanced 10 out of 10 Yes, that book Maybe you could dock that one point, but generally I think that's about right, you know, like you can quibble on like spy revenants I do think dryads Are a little still undervalued. They've got a meaningful role Lack of mpe. Yep. No that that needs to be low score very billet of list We had seen dude by far the most Variability of list in the last season than ever in the history of sylvaneth. It was incredible And the internal on that point people need to be thinking about adapting their list to the season I've been seeing a lot of folks still running out the spell singer war song revenant That's not exactly where it's at in my mind. You really need to think about like some bugs Radiant spirit to help protect you against magic. You got a oak and brow Gotrik dare and just did great things with gotrik and tree lords and some other things That's a nice power pair together. All right. I'm getting distracted as I always do internal power eight out of eight Yeah, don't usually see a lot of allies psychographic profiles. I mean, johnny will be happy if actually sabotages spike Uh, yeah, there's not I think that's I think that's actually quite accurate Yeah, that does I don't know if you yeah, I think then it should be something like four of six I agree. Yeah, exactly took the words that I'm out that should be four out of six my mind I think I think why it's he's hitting it harder is because it's not just that it doesn't suit spike It's it's actively anti spike and it's not like it's perfectly timmy johnny Right like it plays in both those spaces. It's not the most timmy. It's not the most johnny and it's like negative spike And I I actually agree with that read I I might have given it one more point like a three out of six or something But I mean, we're really quibbling over over minor stuff here. I think it I think that's an incredibly insightful point from david I really do I I I hadn't thought about it in those terms until he put those words down and I was like Yep, that is exactly right But if we would say that Half points are the barrier to fail. So he here you would say does it fail the psychological psychographic profile The half points would be in total the failed sure and I don't think that If it is in there and people like playing it that it really fails what it's supposed to do Sure Okay, totally fair But overall strong, I'm not sure I could have if I would have scored this I'm not sure it would have come into b territory Um, I think I probably this would be a c army to me But I I love it and david's a great you're doing a good evaluation there. All right. Let's take a look at some roll-up scores Shall we hey ben swip got a some comments about it looks like some of these were not adding the scores correctly It specifically is lunash looks like it was missing so people added up missing about 20 points You scroll up in the comments I'll go back and look let's look at slanash What wasn't filled out 50 81 May not have just been aggregating Oh, yeah, there it didn't catch the last part. Oh, yeah. Oh, well, that's fine. Oh good. I'll I'll fix it Okay. Yeah, that one that that one missed its its summary. So david actually should have been 10 16 132 on slanash Now that makes more sense out of his mind because this one should have been 16. Yes. Good catch That was it didn't it didn't catch those points for some reason So there we go Definitely not a high b-plus army. That is wild. Okay Let's go back to this other one here. Sorry. There we go. So Nope, that's mine. Let's get yannis. I want to get yours up All right, yannis.  Were you doing the whole book here? Not just iron jaws You're you're right there. You're seeing this as the combined force, right? Okay, so everybody can see the scores here. Take us through uh, you take us through your thinking Uh, so for the walk plans, I talked to the friend to plate them and uh, so I always played against them so there was this discussion about them and um So additionally to what we said for the iron jaws, we both completely agree on everything um, we thought about uh, and we and I looked a bit at the meta meta meta representation of The walk lands that the crew boys seem to be better than they were before and the bone splitters as well um, and I think that they Are a solid b list I think right now, right? Um, yeah, you're right in a b territory. Yep Because if you look at the complete book, I think you can find um, so the timmy in the um Iron jaws, of course Uh, but I think the crew boys although I personally don't like them In their visual appearance that much. I think they work for what they are supposed to be So if I think of iron jaws, they are these this this metal armor Yeah machine that roads towards you. Um, the bone splitters have this wilderness savage vibe in them and I think for the Crew boys this idea that they are so I played a lot of diablo in the last couple of weeks this rogue character that Can be shooty that can be a melee that uses poison And I think the models reflect that very well and I think um, so I of course cannot Say anything about the competitive power level But on those parts, I think the book works quite well and um, again with the idea of the big war to bring it together um I think that this fits very well. So you could take Points for the competitive power level you could give them. I don't know Um, but I do like the rest of the rest of it. It's funny because it's the highest scoring army But it's some of your lower points on performance and healthy Uh position right like only storm cast did worse in your list and yet, you know, the rest of this stuff was was high enough It brought it up back up because that's interesting, right? Yeah And then everybody else is firmly in B territory there ogre mawtribes 112 Or sorry firmly in C territory. I apologize. Uh ogre mawtribes 112 Night haunt at 109 and then storm cast eternal is taking that big hit mainly in competitive power Which I would tend to agree with down at 99 points still a C They're still squeaking in there with a C Uh, but they're they're they're they're still past in the class Uh, but but but not a great score overall The storm cast are my first and main army and they annoy me to no end although I love them truly I like But when I started I bought them because I thought they were a starter army And I've got a basement full of minis that I have not painted. I have painted something like four of 5000 points at least Yeah, I think I have at least 3000 or 4000 more in the basement Because they are too convoluted I think I counted count the new model something like 15 Walk was scrolls with the with with the with it Keyword and as a new player it is impossible to understand what is happening there And that makes me to no end because that's not what they're supposed to be and I think And what should that what are they supposed to be in your mind? What are they supposed to be? I think they should be an in for new player because they market as beginner friendly Um, and it's something that you wrote down in your List for the storm cast so that you can see this development from first to second and third edition and My problem is that they don't That they lose a very similitude on the way because they are so different. So when the Terms of law as well. So at first sigma sent out the liberators to liberate the more realms and okay, they Don't look like liberators more or less to me. They look too heavy. Then you have got the Second edition with the wizards you have got the vanguard in between And with the new edition, um, I really like the models But they seem to be more like those who could walk for a mile in their armor because the liberator armor looks much too too heavy And in this way, you have got different roles that they would take on in the law and in the game And I think they failed there, especially in the battle line idea. So, um They are protectors. They are liberators um They are Heroes they are dragon writers, but they have different kinds of mounts as well. Then they have got griff hounds and Sniper bows and it's too much simply They don't know what they are. They are getting better I Thought about this when we thought nief today that they might change the Armor to the thunder strike armor. Maybe they might include a couple of old heroes and for more of those Yeah, those hero units or something like this But they have to do something it's I don't see a 4.0 book without a reduction of all scores. Sure Let's talk about Maw Tribes and you're scoring there because that's the first time we've touched really ogres Uh in this so let's let's get high pay woes in the chat. What's up, buddy? Go hope you're doing well uh The the the Maw Tribes coming in at a at a high sea at 112 Uh looking pretty solid kind of across the board there. There's some you know your your biggest hits Uh aren't really you know Anywhere it's all just like some minor points being docked here and there right there They're they're doing well kind of across the board. No obvious Achilles heel Right, maybe psychographic profile where they only hit 50 percent. They got three out of six You know if you evaluate by percentage, which which is probably generally true right I don't know. I don't know how they play but um, so I'm mostly a Johnny player and They have got a couple of heroes that theoretically have different functions um, you've got the monster truck version there as well So you've got big monsters which they should have I do like the idea that they are either hungry or eating That fits very well. I can't say much about the competitive level I did like so in my game with benny. I played um the iron blaster which Did what it looked like so it's a gigantic cannon that last things. Um, yeah, perfect Of course, they are a bit older, but I think the newer Some of the newer models look great. I like the pirate. I did not like the last hero He did not pity was too close to the older design um So at the moment, I'm quite I really enjoy painting them Yeah, they're a very fun army to paint. They really are like in fact The only thing I would have moved them up on maybe slightly or that I would quibble here Is you gave them a six out of eight on the cost of collection? I would have probably moved that up to a seven just because there's so many of these ogres that are available second hand on the market You can usually get them quite cheap They've had a lot of good battle force boxes and stuff where you're like, especially if you're into gut busters If you're into bcr, it's a tougher row but to to plow but but if you're into to the gut buster side, there you go But still there you need the older heroes as well and In one of our sessions, I painted the pirate which I really like the many And those models you can just throw away just they need to go forever Which is a lot of master So there are some points of improvement and they are still quite expensive It's not like they are 10 bucks or something like that. They are Yeah, I don't know I don't know Yep, like what Hey, well said here. They're the ultimate 50% army Yep Very good. All right, let me bring up my scores here and then we'll bring this to a little close So I rated stormcast scaven s2d iron jaws suns slanesh lumineath and soul black grave lords Sorry for the fireslayers players. We didn't have any fireslayers ratings I don't think we had anybody who plays fireslayers to rate them Which is not surprising being that only four people in the continental united states play them So it was very hard to get ahold of them to fill out a sheet Um, but you know where the apologies my friend ken whom I could have reached out to you But I would have missed out on this bit because this is our version of jimmy kimmel and matt daemon And I'm here for it. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Oh, we were going to have some fireslayers Discussion the show but we just had to cut it for time. All right stormcast for me got 113 firmly in the sea territory But like higher end Uh of it and the reason there where I really hit them the you know Performance and healthy and quality of rules all that stuff took a hit But overall I did rate them quite highly on things like the cost of collection The ease of collection painting I gave them some big scores on all that because I felt like that's where they're really really strong And I get what you said, yannis about the the resonance and all that but for me it all lands I never really thought about the difference between the two Armor types and stuff like that. I just like them in general. They feel like dudes who sit down in beach head You know, like they show up on lightning and then And then thunderstruck plays and they just start crushing heads and like, you know, that that all works for me um There there is like I hit them decently on the variability of lists the the balance I hit them really really hard on Um, just because I think that is like there that is their glaring weak spot. I mean, I just I think that's awful um Skaven one thing one thing on storm cast one thing on storm cast. I'm curious. You're you're feeling on this so To me often with storm cast they I mean, they're supposed to be these Super natural beings these walking deities walking gods They don't feel like it often on the table They know the very solitude of that's misses a little like if you read them in the stories and stuff But like I don't know. I think they are still pretty strong Like it's the number of mortal wounds in the game makes you not feel like that But if you ever play against something with a mostly three up safe storm cast army that doesn't have a lot of mortal wounds You do feel like you're pretty untouchable You know, yeah Which is what and it can be annoying us. Yeah, I was plus four stack yesterday Like I get it but like that's what they have to lean into and you hope you hope that you don't go up Again for a wind spam So yeah, it's it's these like extremes that you run into more windspans is going to take me off the table But this is my only out This is one of my outs that I still have as a storm cast player to try to compete against all these newer books So it's it's it's it's weird, but yeah, you know I had like a in a tournament game once I was playing against bone splitters And I had a unit of vindictors on cover And I got charged by like just a mound of different bone splitters, right? I couldn't even tell you what they were because who knows that every every unit in that army looks exactly the same Right, but like I mean these dudes it was like the scene at the end of of Alien versus predator it was awesome because the piece of terrain was just a big set of stairs Okay, and my vindictors were like slowly dying That's they're getting hit by like every orc that can get In the space to get at them, but we're like backing up the stairs, right basically as as I would move And it was just so hard for him to bring down those five vindictors and cover with like one buff on them Right, right like they sat forever in that fight and just like Just stabbed it because they had that big spear and shield look too So it really did look like that sort of end of the movie spoilers, I guess for a labor spreader or whatever Um, but like it just felt like the end of that movie so much and like the end of the game. They're still one alive Right and despite like that dude was tying up like two massive unit of orcs They did they kill anything not really like they stabbed a couple orcs to death, right? But it just felt like so cool. And so, you know that that I think you can hit that right Especially if you're if you're not against like mortal wound spam stuff, right? Sure Skaven I surprised myself.  Uh, I thought they were going to score higher for me But honesty like I tried to be quite objective here Rules complexity eight out of 13 hit them real hard balance on a five so many dead units Lack of npe nine out of 10 very close. This is a nearly npe free army It's the most fair army in warhammer. I stick to that Uh, I mean just like they like they